Subject: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:43:38 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: I have a friend (I shall call him Andrew although that's not his real name) who is a wavering premie who wants to become an ex but is living in fear because of some of the things Maharaji has said. He really is afraid. Unfortunately he's not on the internet and would only have occasional access via a library computer. One of the heavy things that Maharat said that is troubling Andrew is the story about the boat where all the people on it drowned or were eaten by sharks after jumping in for a swim and forgetting to put down a ladder. This has put the fear of God into him. There are many other things that Maharat has said over the years which trouble Andrew and he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil. Unfortunaltely he lives a long way from me although I do talk to him regularly on the phone. He lives in the UK. Does anyone have any ideas on how to help Andrew? I have already filled him in on a lot of the stuff about Maharat that we all know which most premies still don't know. If anyone wants to write a message to Andrew here, or to my email (addressed above) then please do. I will then print out any messages to him and post them off to him. Thanks.

Subject: remind him of the fable of Peter From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:14:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: - who, the story goes, denied his master three times, but went on to be rock his church was founded on.

Subject: Fear 101 From: John Macgregor To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 05:44:50 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: '...he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil.' Can relate to this very well. I experienced several weeks of heavy duty fear when I did my posts late last year. I now have regular contact with exiters - some friends, others unknown to me previously - and fear is a huge factor, common to all. The solution for me was: 1. never delay in attending EPO - i.e. read it lots every day, and learn the facts behind the myths 2. wait: wait for the nervous system to catch up with the intellect. This took me maybe 2-3 months, and was torture. Other recent exes and I have compared the symptoms we had during this period. I posted the symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder here a month or 2 ago: we had 90%+ of them. 3. Always have faith in Jim. That's a joke, but has a roundabout truth inasmuch as keeping your sense of humour is very important. Cults do have their funny side, especially when you think of all the emotional and physical drek. For me, what also worked was jumping as soon as I humanly could:getting out and being honest about it had a tremendously liberating effect - tho there was a week or so of serious emotional shock before the nice feelings set it. The main thing I noticed - and also the most surprising thing - is that my INTERNAL EXPERIENCE is better without Maharaji and Knowledge. When that becomes real, you see that there never was a reason to stay in the cult for so long. Anyway, I know several 'Andrews' at present: some have burst out of their shells and left; others are fire-walking in that hellish 'swing' zone - can't jump one way or the other; others again have activated the ostrich reflex and gone into denial, i.e. choosing to remain as premies on the strength of one irrational premiss or another. I have hopes that some in the second 2 categories will come back thru the looking glass at some stage. I advise those in the hell-realm - swinging from one state to another - that they will go mad if they keep that up, and would be better off in the cult if they must...(but ideally out of it). After a year of hardline atheism, I'm exploring a little spirituality again lately, which I'm seriously enjoying. Tho of course if anyone mentions the words 'guru' or 'master' to me for the next 30 years approximately, their physical wellbeing could not be guaranteed. The NSW north coast quartely ex-premies' dinner will be held at my place tomorrow night (Sat). I've invited 15, but in case I've forgotten you or you've exited without my knowing (there's a bit of an exodus happening, and one doesn't always hear right away who's left), contact me (email above) or just show up. Best to all, John

Subject: Re: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please send this to ''Andrew.'' Dear fellow premie, There is no way that it is possible NOT to feel afraid to turn your back on Maharaji. If we had not believed that he was the lord, it might be easy but most of us believed that he was the Master and so of course we were afraid to turn against him. The only way to do it is to just do it. If you are not proud of him and are ashamed and embarassed by him, just dump him. It's only after you've done it and realized that you have not shattered into a thousand pieces, turned into a rotting vegetable or been eaten by sharks that you will see what a pathetically pretentious little man Rev Rawat really is. Sincerely, Patrick Conlon, San Francisco, pdconlon@hotmail.com.

Subject: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Former Instructor To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:39:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not new to this Forum, and have posted here often. However, I must use an even deeper alias today. Please forgive me. Yes, that's correct. I sadly have to admit today that, yes, I shagged the first aspirant that wanted Knowledge from me. It really put me through changes when I became an Instructor and began revealing the techniques of Knowledge to people on behalf of the Guru from Malibu, Maharaji. I was THE only person in my large urban center who was so designated. All of a sudden, it felt like I was a Beatle (but felt more like Ringo, the not-so-cute one). People calling me up left and right, making appointments to talk with me, see me, inviting me out to dinner, buttering me up, trying to inspire in me faith that they were in fact READY in my humble opinion -- the only one that counted locally at that point -- to receive Knowledge from me on M's behalf. So, anyway, there she was. My first aspirant. Private sessions and long Q&A discussions ensued. I was smitten with her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Did she stick with either myself or the Knowledge? No! It was a quickie infatuation with both. In hind sight, I quickly realized that, come to think of it, no, she wasn't quite ready to receive K. (My bad.) It was my first and last experience of taking advantage of my position as an Instructor. Instructor-aspirant is the same as student-teacher, boss-employee, counselor-camper when it comes to sexual harassment issues. I knew it as wrong ethically. We had gone over this in our Instructor Training. It was obvious. But, I was weak of the flesh. Human. Seduced. Taken in. Lost. Sorry. But so hot, hot, hot! Felt guilty? Yes. Last year, at one of the Knowledge Review screenings, I was asked by one of the Honcho Still Instructors if I had ever given people K because at the screening a premie had indicated that I had given her K (was her Instructor). The Honcho Instructor wanted to double-check that in fact I had ever been given permission to reveal K and that I had in fact ever given anyone K and was ever an Instructor. Yup, it was me. I have heard that I was not the only Instructor who might have done a little extra instructing on the side with certain of their clients. I regret the whole thing. I am sorry I ever heard of M or K. He really is a sorry case.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: a sympathizer To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:00:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your report. The flesh is weak. You did the right thing by shagging her. Probably helped her understand that the whole thing was bogus a lot sooner than if you would have not shagged her.

Subject: Well that's refreshing From: Richard To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:41:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Refreshing honesty that is. Thanks for telling the story and I hope it helps relieve a bit of the guilt. The two of you were consenting adults but it's good of you to cop to the violation of ethics. It was probably emphasized in your Instructor Training because some of your predecessors had similar liasons. That was the word in Denver anyway. 'That feeling' was certainly attractive and seductive. It's what got many of us hooked in the first place. It also sounds like it wasn't really K she was after so maybe you saved her from years of servitude. I confessed on the forum awhile back to having several ashram affairs. At the time it was a mix of forbidden fruit, sacred cow and an open, loving environment. Ashram lust was fairly commonplace, in Denver anyway, especially after M and M got married. After all, we're only human.

Subject: Bless you my son From: gerry To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 18:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Now for your penance sing six Arti's, four Twameva's and get me her telephone number...

Subject: Re: Bless you my son From: Bolly Shri To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My first introduction to the cult was at a house sorry ashram in norf london, Ashokanand pre brylcreem and suits was sitting glowing with divine light in an arm chair. He looked quite gorgeos, so I decided the atraction was not to the spiritual life and went away only to return a year later when the mahatmas were a little bit more frumpy apart from the beautifull saris. The person who took me to the first visit was then warning me off the whole thing. If only I had listened to my friend and not the fat boy life would have been very different Bolly Shri

Subject: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: OTS To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:30:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are exceprts from yesterday's Washington Post. My question: How come Abi and Susan don't hire a U.S. lawyer who specializes in these types of cases and file a legal complaint here (regarding their childhood sexual assualts by Mahatma Jagdeo), since EV is headquartered in the U.S.? Is there some statute of limitations question? Something else? Thanks. If they get lawyers, then they don't ever have to speak with the other side in the matter again until deposition or trial. By Pamela Ferdinand Special to The Washington Post Wednesday, March 13, 2002; Page A01 BOSTON, March 12 -- The Archdiocese of Boston has agreed to pay up to $30 million to 86 people who accused defrocked priest John J. Geoghan of child molestation, an attorney for the plaintiffs said today. 'This is not happy money,' said Mitchell Garabedian, flanked in his downtown office by four somber men who said Geoghan abused them as boys. 'This is blood money.' The settlement puts to rest a highly publicized group of lawsuits that helped foment a national crisis in the Roman Catholic Church. But it does not resolve the problems facing the archdiocese -- where scores of alleged victims continue to surface, claiming sexual abuse by Geoghan and other priests -- or for the church as a whole, which is confronting a wave of similar cases around the country. This agreement, however, could serve as a model for resolving future claims, Garabedian said. The archdiocese agreed not to require plaintiffs to sign confidentiality agreements, a practice that has allowed it to conceal abuse allegations in the past. Church officials also agreed not to seek to obtain personal information about plaintiffs. . . . Today's settlement does not represent the largest amount of money involved in a clerical sex abuse case. In the 1990s, the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, N.M., paid more than $50 million to settle 45 cases of sexual abuse in which Jason Sigler was accused, and the church paid $36.5 million to settle abuse claims against former priest Rudy Kos. Besides the possibility of new lawsuits against him from alleged victims who continue to come forward, Geoghan, 66, was convicted of child molestation last month and began serving a nine- to 10-year sentence. He faces one more criminal trial for indecent assault and battery of a child. As news of today's settlement spread, David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) in St. Louis, commended Geoghan's victims for speaking out against an institution long cloaked in secrecy. 'Because of their courage, the consistent pattern of covering up for pedophile priests has been exposed,' Clohessy said. But while secular authorities have become more vigilant, he added, 'It's naive to think it's going to fundamentally make a difference in how the church handles abuse allegations.' Chancellor David Smith, who works as the archdiocese's chief financial officer, told the Associated Press that the archdiocese -- now in the midst of a $300 million capital campaign -- will pay for the settlements through a combination of insurance money, the sale of assets and private donations.

Subject: Re: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: Bolly Shri To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: England has no statute of limitations on child abuse cases Bolly shri

Subject: not a leaf moves?? [nt] From: David Smith ??? To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:58:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't speak for Abi From: Susan To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:59:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These things are really tricky to talk about on the web. I can tell you when I read about those cases the only thing I think that would work for a case this old to be 'winnable' and lawsuits are not fun, would be to have a similar number of victims speaking forward. There is strength in numbers. I have no doubt Jagdeo has a huge number of victims, but unless we were to get some mainstream press, we probably could not find most of the victims. Abi and I both know other victims who are not willing to come forward, and I absolutely respect that for some people it is too painful and scary to do so.

Subject: Maharaji's new name, and EV's function From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq kindly pointed out below that Elan Vital's website, on the Maharaji page, says 'Prem Rawat, a.k.a. Maharaji'. This is big news so I though it deserved a new thread. Thanks, Chris. Also, Elan Vital's function, according to its website is:- 'Elan Vital Inc. produces and distributes materials worldwide, using its trade name Visions International. At present, these materials are enjoyed in over 80 countries, with written and oral translations provided in more than 60 languages.' Then, on the Visions International website, as pointed out below, there is no mention of any materials, in any language or country. A small lack of synchronicity, methinks. But if EV exists to produce and distribute materials, and there aren't any, what is EV all about? Perhaps someone at EV could answer this if the monitoring system is still in place. John.

Subject: New article on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:12:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fifth Estate Magazine Article - September 14, 1973 Survives Beating by Guru's Devotees, 5th Estate Reporter in Good Shape Teen-age Guru's Secret 'Divine Light' Exotic Religious Techniques Exposed Readers' Letters to Fifth Estate Magazine

Subject: Maha reveals truth on my web site! From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:10:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm freeland.mybravenet.com/Pics/mahainterest.jpg

Subject: He is adored From: Silvia To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:33:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you brought this photo/subject up; it is known that premies are in denial, or confused about maharalard's identity. What a mistery, eh? Who is the Lard? The premies/devotees got it I think. Maharalard is still Lord in 2002. All the premies I know think maharalard is the LORD, more, God incarnated and that they are connected with him, somehow. All depend in his grace, feel week, neurotic, and dependant. They feel totally powerlees and lost without contacting the master/Lard/Lord, specially when they have not seen him for a long time. The dependency most (well, all the ones i know, many, all of them really)of them have is obvious, and all of you can back me up on that because when we were premies we were TAUGHT to think like that. The words in my vocabulary I used in my daily basis became all focused on K and how horrible the world was. Only in 'HIS' world was worth living, whatever that meant. So, what the cult is about is that ONE is ready to rule and direct and the rest are ready to follow...the dream of the Lard: HE IS MASTER. Look at that photo! How many times did I kissed maharalard feet? Too many to remember, or count them, that to proof, kiss here and there that it's a cult. A human being kissing in submission the feet of another. COMMON! Independently of all the excuses premies may have all the devotion trip points to ONE direction and that is CULT. Those were neurotic days, nonsense!

Subject: Re: He is adored From: Sir Dave To: Silvia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:48:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very true Sylvia. All the premies that I know of who are still premies, believe that Maha is God. By the way, the divine truth that Maha revealed in this pic is that while he is being worshipped by a premie, he is ogling a sexy blonde girl. That's where his real interest lies.

Subject: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone called Mac Surfer posted this on LG. I must admit it's the only position a premie can take these days and stay a premie. So anyway, here's what MS said:- Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 05:49:49 (EST) Original: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:10:05 (EST) Posted by: MS Recipient: JHB Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC) Subject: No. I talk - you listen Message: Maharaji is an incarnation of God and he most definitely deserves all the worship he gets. What he has done over 30 years to elevate the consciousness of the individual is incalculable. I also consider my self an incarnation of sorts, but not one so dedicated and focussed on sharing it around the world. I'd wager I get more destracted by dumbass things as well. The psychological effect on those sincere people who really tried to listen to him? A healthy blessing, the best. If I were you, I would be a lot more concerned about those insincere people who really didn't listen to him. Yes, I will calmly debate. Though I have noticed a somewhat scarcity of calmness on these forums. However, my community has encouraged me to take a look, so here I am. You won't find me on F7. I've heard they attack anyone who dares say they like and admire Maharaji. If you're going to ask questions, there's a couple you needn't bother with. I don't care how many chick, drugs and booze fests ANYONE attends. I do the same things and still consider myself a conscious, worthwhile person with plenty of good things to offer and share. Neither am I concerned with the wild and crazy guru followers who've fucked up over the years. Sorry, but I never signed on as a Jesus clone whose going to take on the suffering of the whole world and weep and gnash my teeth over the ills that befall those around me. Hit and run? Forget it! I seriously wounded a fellow with a rock once but allowed one of my subordinates to take the rap. That was just the pecking order at the time. No shame, no blame. Now, any real questions?

Subject: to like and admire Maharaji From: wolfie To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:35:43 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, all I can say it is a psychological phenomen. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is allright. But this is all so far I can see a narcistic game. Someone on the thron tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have recieved this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have recieved this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcistic person is very pleased to hear this wonderful words because it fills a unrealised emptiness and it really feels so good not to feell this emtptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the activ narcist and in the audience there are sitting the passiv narcistic ones. The activ one wants admiration and thankfullness and the passiv one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people wíth the same neurotic condition come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realised soul, a god incarnation, the empodiement of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, specially Maharji himself is so narcistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is somoene supirior. We waited for him, that is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay , it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undevelopt narcistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realise that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creats more or less suffering, he has a difficult pesonality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his follwers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that had happened alreay many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look evrywhere but not in the narcistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselfs in relation to people without knowlege and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emtonal high they get when they leader tells his deciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complet mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, nomore probagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. back in time and space ..............Wolfie

Subject: Yep! A narcosis of narcism. Well said, Wolfie /nt From: Carl To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:15:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yowza

Subject: J-M: *****Best OF***** From: gerry To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:51:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post, wolfie and a clear explanation of the 'mechanics' of the situation. Folie de deux is the term that applies to the relationship of Maha and his followers, I believe (if I haven't slaughtered the French language, that is.) I've taken the liberty of touching up the spelling a little and break it into more paragraphs, but I must say your command of the English language is very good. Hi, All I can say it is a psychological phenomena. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is alright. But this is all so far I can see a narcissistic game. Someone on the throne tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have received this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have received this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcissistic person is very pleased to hear these wonderful words because it fills a unrealized emptiness and it really feels so good not to feel this emptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the active narcissist and in the audience there are sitting the passive narcissistic ones. The active one wants admiration and thankfulness and the passive one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people with the same neurotic conditions come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realized soul, a god incarnation, the embodiment of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, especially Maharji himself is so narcissistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is someone superior. We waited for him, which is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay, it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undeveloped narcissistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realize that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creates more or less suffering, he has a difficult personality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his followers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that has happened already many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look everywhere but not in the narcissistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselves in relation to people without knowledge and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emotional high they get when they leader tells his disciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complete mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, no more propagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. Back in time and space ...Wolfie

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:32:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes this, yet another anonymous, premie any differenrt from the others. He is just another catweasel. A floating entity with no human values. Just like m. Hmmm well he is just like m in that he considers himself an 'incarnation'. 'Hit and run? Forget it!' who wants to address the issue of one insignicant young man losing his life, let alone the issue of child abuse and rape??...let's just talk about THAT feeling Oh of course I forgot 'incarnations' are above human values. Mac is just another cultist pissing in the wind. You'de think there's be at least one or 2 who would post under their own names and show some integrity. cheers Jethro

Subject: Integrity and human values From: PatD To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:16:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read the full conversation between JHB & this guy on LG & am appalled. This Mac is a dangerous man. Amoral,intelligent,superior,& above all deluded (or maybe that should be,above all amoral) He's lucky though & not because of his master's grace either. He's lucky that he lives in a society where you can set out your stall as a complete bastard & get away with it. maybe he wouldn't feel so blissful if he lived somewhere where complete bastards look at each other through crosshairs. Or maybe he would.

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: John Smith To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What and trust you lot?

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This idea that premies are unsafe here if they post under their own names needs to be addressed. The only instance of any premie being put under any pressure because his name was published on the ex-premie forum was Charles Glasser after he had put up a website attacking ex-premies as mentally ill drug addicts, alongside extracts from ex-premies' personal published journeys. And all that happened to Charles is that someone contacted him at his work address making an innocent enquiry about the allegations on the site. We've also written a very polite letter to Ron Geaves about his part in a published video. Ex-premies on the other hand have been attacked by anonymous premies, including Charles before he was outed, and those behind the CAC site. But regardless of premie or ex-premie, CAC is the worst that's happened. No premie has ever been threatened, stalked, harrassed, libeled, slandered, or outed to their employers. No, the worst that happens to premies is that we argue with them. We attack concepts and arguments that, in our view, need to be attacked. Some of us do get frustrated and do occasionally express that frustration, but the majority of us are polite if challenging. Experience on these forums proves that any premie who comes here, willing to sincerely discuss their view of Maharaji, gets a robust, but fair, hearing, and that includes those very few who have posted under their real names such as Erika and Sandy. So, the reality is, you can trust ex-premies. Rumours to the contrary are simply false. John.

Subject: Re: Trust From: John Smith To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 15:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah ..Right......And I'm Snow White........

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:06:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Snow White, Which part of this is wrong? Seriously, can you answer? John.

Subject: A perfect master on perfect masters From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:39:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified.' Shri Hans Ji Maharaji Maharaj said this. I posted it on a thread down below but think I'll put it here too. With love, Livia

Subject: In memory of Richard Matacz.... From: Mel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:53:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: who passed away in Thailand in a road accident recently. Some Australian premies and ex's may have known Richard. A noble soul. Mel

Subject: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 20:33:17 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I haven't smoked since last Thursday night (was smoking 20 - 30 cigarettes a day) and had hernia surgery last Friday - it's been a crazy week, believe me. I've just shown a friend some of my recent writings along with some of the encouragement I've received to continue writing and gain more insight in doing so. It's going to get harder in the next installments because I'm the type of person that wants to know why I/we were taken for a ride by someone who has claimed to be the ultimate dispeller of darkness/revealer of light of our age and has only seemed to have profitted materially by doing so. It's frightening to me - why did I have a father who was critical to an extraordinary degree. After years in ACOA (Adult Children Of Alcoholics, a twelve-step program) and much therapy, I still don't have a satisfying answer. So I have to go slowly and tread on ground, much of which resembles my childhood which is like a dead-end, analytically. Interestingly my mom just told me that she and a therapist she spoke to think I need to write about my childhoold as well, but I wonder whether this is the place. Probably not, so I'll find a proper place to do so, maybe just in a word processer. I'll also be updating the journey entry on E.P.O. so that anyone who wants to will be able to refer to what's already been written. Here goes: I received 'knowledge' from Nadine Lebas in August 1977. In her selection she asked who was doing service. I said I was, even though I was only donating money. Here's a strange example of how mental interpretation is related to the supposedly spiritual practice of 'knowledge'. What if I had donated only ten cents a week and continued to do so after 'receiving knowledge'. Would I be entitled to 'realize knowledge' (does anyone have a definition of what 'realizing knowledge' means)? A week later I moved to London Ontario to do a master's degree in economics at The University Of Western Ontario. The first semester was interrupted by two analogous events - Hans Jayanti 1977 in Rome and my grandfather's funeral. I felt obliged to go to both for similar reasons - family obligation and extended family obligation. In Rome I sat in the hotel room for about a week as it must of been cheaper to book charter flights with longer turnaround than to save on hotels. Anyway I missed about a week and a half to two weeks of school and failed the semester. (By the way my only nephew, Ariel son of Arnie Lade and my sister Harriet Quint/Lade, both ex-premies, is right in the middle of the second semester in his masters of arts in economics at The London School Of Economics - there must be a God for such amazing coincidences to occur. There was always a paradox in that nobody in my family or the premie world gave a damn whethere I completed the degree, but of course my income-earning ability was appreciated later. When I returned to Montreal, I went back to work for my cousin and his alcololic parter, two chartered accountants. Their constant fighting echoed my parents' constant fighting. The firm eventually fell apart but I moved to another accounting firm in the fall of 1978. I worked as Divine Light Mission Montreal's volunteer accountant as well, with Georges Legere as my supervisor - he was district financial manager. The next part gets good and very sad - the beginning of my active mental illness, confinement in a psychiatric ward with virtally no premie visiting in the spring of 1979 (with extremely insignificant exceptions), physical impairment (broken bones through psychotic adventure which still affect me). And to think - I returned to the programs around 1983 and continued going until fairly recently). What's wrong with me to be as loyal as I was? More to come as soon as possible. Steve

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Livia To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:29:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, nice to see you back here. Even though I don't know you I was wondering how it had gone with your hernia surgery - glad to see you have survived to tell the tale and are on typing form again! Your journey is really interesting and well written; hope you make it through in one piece - we're all here for you on this wicked Forum 7, full of thick deluded ex-premies who just didn't know what was good for them. (For 'thick' definition, see Moles post above) BTW, I was interested to see you mention a couple of weeks ago that it was a programme with Charanand that was the final drip for you. What happened? I always remembered Charanand as a beautiful soul, although I must say that the last couple of times I saw him, he seemed to have lost most of his original sparkle - he seemed quite troubled, I thought. Anyway, all the best for a speedy recovery and I look forward to reading you lots more here, as I'm sure we all do! With love, Livia

Subject: Journey Entry Third And A Half Installment From: Steve Quint To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:05:05 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I felt disturbed the day after the program with charanand and went out and did some drugs - not the right response. I did not find him very inspiriring, inspired or enlightened - just a glib speaker. My story to date as far as involvement with maha is concerned is: -Attraction to good advertising -Attraction to intelligent and slippery and charismatic mahatmas who seem to know something that most people don't, i.e. seem to have the 'secret knowledge that they talk about' -Follow the direction of the community coordinators and other local yokels when the mahatmas, later initiators, weren't around. At some point, probabably at the very begininnig, it was the 'blind leading the blind'. -Blame myself when things don't go right - this is lethal. You've got the perfect knowledge and you still screwed up? You must be really fucked up, in contrast to the divine mahatmas, coordinators maharaji and others around him who are so perfect. Charanand seemed to be reciting a prepared speech when I saw him. Something bothered me about the program, but my reaction to go out and do drugs wasn't right. Gotta find other ways of finding peace. Steve

Subject: I really enjoy your writing, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:25:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I'll have to write my Journey like you - in instalments. You're always welcome to post your childhood story on Chuck's forum The Symposium. BUT, one of the reasons that I enjoy your writing so much is that it is so naked and raw. I would worry a bit that you bared yourself too much for your own good but I would respect that and hope others would too. Thanks again for sharing your writings. I hope writing does as much good for you as it does for me. It sure helps me to clarify my thoughts.

Subject: Arne Lade's here in Vic From: Jim To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:33:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, Do you ever see or hear from Arne? I remember all the Lade brothers when they first started coming around just before or after Millenium. Arne's a new age healer type. We talked a bit when I moved here 11 years ago. He didn't quite see Maharaji the way I did, him being of the 'nothing's a mistake' school of thought and me being more along the lines of 'you gotta be kidding'. Good story. Keep it coming.

Subject: Steve, I have to say... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:08:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a damn good read. Thanks.

Subject: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:23:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a discrete meal with a PAM recently, who, after a couple of bottles of wine, told me a funny story about Captain Rawat and his co-pilot. As you may know, Rawat is very touchy about revealing his secret identity as a cult leader, when flying his private jets around the world. He likes to pretend he’s an airline pilot. This way he goes through the Crew Gate when he arrives, and avoids embarrassing searches and questions. This is particularly useful when he lands in India. Everyone pretends the jet belongs to someone else, so he can slip into the country with the minimum of hassle. Anyway, when he’s travelling like this, he makes all the premies call him “Captain Rawat”, and nobody is allowed to even hint at his secret life as “Living Perfect Master.” Sometimes he flew, and maybe still flies, with a co-pilot who isn’t in the cult, and knows nothing of Rawats delusions of arriving on Earth with more power than Jesus and Krishna. Any premies in the presence of the co-pilot, keep up the pretence of Rawat being nothing more than a pilot. Three or four years ago, Captain Rawat flew to Australia with such a co-pilot. After arriving at Amaroo, the Captain discovered that the local newspaper planned on printing a story about him and his cult. Apparently the Captain went apeshit and threw a tantrum, threatening never to return to Australia. There was also a secondary panic in case the co-pilot saw the article and discovered the secret identity of his workmate. A solution was found. The co-pilot was sent back to America for a week or so, covering the period that the article appeared. (I think they made up an excuse, something like, “he had to collect a spare part”). This was to prevent him discovering he was flying next to the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the Earth. Unfortunately for the Captain, when the co-pilot got back to Australia, someone showed him a copy of the article anyway. So the expensive charade was in vain, and the co-pilot found out he’d been flying with God in human form after all. Not a leaf moves…etc. Anth, laughing all the way to Passport Control.

Subject: God is your Pilot, Anth Ji From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:54:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brother Anth Ji, So nice to be reading words of wisdom from my dear brother ji. Old mahatma ji lost his glasses but a nice premie told me what you said. Correct me if I am wrong. You are telling wonderful parable of some person you call The Captain. This Captain, who I recall used to torture your dreams, was traveling on aeroplane and discovered that he?d been flying with God in human form after all. What a wonderful parable for us all. We go along through this Maya of trips and traps and one day discover that God in human form, Guru Maharaj Ji, all along has been flying us. All we have to do is let go and not only will Sant Ji rock us in His Divine Swing, He will also be pulling our joy stick to fly our plane. Such a beautiful story Anth Ji. I thank Guru Ji that you have finally stopped obsessing over that ghost of a bastard captain and seen the Light. Like you so wisely said, not a leaf moves . . . Your brother at the Lotus Feet, Mahatma Coat

Subject: How much did it cost? From: JHB To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:30:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The aviation fuel, air traffic control, and landing costs for this totally pointless trip would not be insignificant, and I think it's likely that the Amaroo accounts would show those costs as travelling expenses for the main speaker. Hey premies, what do you think of the way your master spends your money? What a pillock. John.

Subject: Missed you, Anth From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:33:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were just talking, the other day, me and the little lady -- where's Anth?, she's saying. Beats me, I'm saying. And then here you are! Too much, eh? How's it?

Subject: Hi Jim From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:48:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, It's a lightning visit. My mum is seriously ill at the moment, and I'm spending lots of time up North with her, so I won't be around again for a while. Besides that, the premie who told me about the co-pilot is extremely pissed off and paranoid that I spilled the beans, so I'm in the shit too, as they told me not to put it on the forum. All I can say is an insincere 'Sorry', and seeing Catweazle hear again made me so mad, I couldn't help myself. Ah well, what the fuck. Why be scared of the truth, and what the fuck did they tell me for if it was supposed to be a secret. Anth in the doghouse.

Subject: Re: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: Bai Ji To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:33:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth Ji, Good to hear you again. One night M was joking with some of us how His Co-Pilot, pre flight, was sculling a glass of vodka and was in No state to fly (ha ha..) I got the impression that this was a fairly regular occurrence ya know, toss a coin, see who's the most sober. (No that's unfair and pure speculation) everyone laughed I noticed except the two people he was mainly directing this reminiscence to, one being one of his ex hostesses, her face was pretty stony. She also shared some rather blood chilling stuff with me re her In-Flight experiences. Waaay too Hard for any body to have to process in my estimation. I only hope that she and her husband are able to shake Him out of their lives eventually and move on. Anth I haven't heard from Abi, did you pass on that stuff I sent you and tell her that she can write me? I would dearly like to know if she's OK. Love Bai X

Subject: Hi Bai Ji From: AJW To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Yes, I sent the stuff on to Abi. I've not been in touch for a while, as I'm a bit out of the loop with emails etc at the moment, (see above). Anth the melting ice.

Subject: You can't do this! From: Sir Dave :p To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:35:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji wrote: ''She also shared some rather blood chilling stuff with me re her In-Flight experiences. Waaay too Hard for any body to have to process in my estimation.'' Come on now, tell us what this blood chilling stuff is. We can take it, I promise!

Subject: It isn't funny From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 20:56:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since getting over(I hope)having been the sort of pillock who got suckered by the Lord of the ..etc,his real motivation in life is a fascination. It's a morbid interest I know ,but what the fuck; sussing out with a litle help from Mr.Mind what really makes him tick is both enlightening & cringe making. It's quite clear to me from your post & others on the same subject in the past,as well as various other bits of information,most recently Joe's list of his aviation qualifications,that Prem's main interest is flying. I'm sure he's really proud of himself for having achieved all those ratings. How many kids who drop out of school at 13/14 manage to suss out spherical trigonometry in later life....& that's only a part of it. Amazing what money can do in the way of 1st class tuition when time is of no object. That multi-engine commercial license he has...to keep that up you ordinarily need to be employed by an airline,because who has access to commercial airliners in order to put in the neccessary hours otherwise. Sorry...forgot about the Satguru...he floats above the limitations on an ocean of other people's cash. Then there's the commercial helicopter license....ditto. I know someone who had a private pilot's license & a commercial helicopter license(less than god's cv)at age 30 after being in the Royal Navy, where it's a full time job.So for Rawat to get all that together,he's 44 right,after throwing down the brandy,firing up the spliffs & dancing for the crowd,he can't have spent his time doing anything else much. That 1st edition of Divine Light mag,where the little bastard is wearing a pilot's uniform....shit. It's as clear as a bell with the benefit of hindsight.(& information hitherto unobtainable) Still,nice to see someone has realised their ambition in life.

Subject: Prem's main interest is flying. From: Disculta To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 18:43:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, this is true, isn't it? What a weird thing. You know this theory that if you're a starving artist you have to get a 'taxi job' to support doing your art? (Like waiters who are really actors, etc.) How weird to have a passion for piloting and have to support it on the side by being the LOTU. This has got me giggling today. love ktd

Subject: Knew all along... From: The Co-pilot To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:30:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw him once at a hotel in Barcelona. He had a bumper sticker on his ass that read: 'My co-pilot is God'. I think he was on his way to an AA meeting.

Subject: ... on his way to Latvian nite? From: cq To: The Co-pilot Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:57:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Well, God was my copilot, but then we crashed into this mountain and I had to eat him !' Latvian nite London www.ex-premie.org/papers/check_this_please.htm www.ex-premie.org/papers/Copil1.jpg

Subject: And It Is Divine From: Sir Dave :p To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:40:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on above link and then you'll see the pics listed on the left hand side. Click on the Flying Ace one to see the Maha and his co-pilot. And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm

Subject: he knows what's coming then? From: cq To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:06:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/Pics/Lila.jpg

Subject: Sounds awfully darned familiar... From: EBay Alert To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:50:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe this book is from the series of Remo Williams and his Master Chuin. Below is the description (wonder where the idea came from): The Destroyer #19 : Holy Terror by Warren Murphy Pinnacle Books February 1980 6th Printing 182 Pages KEEP THE FAITH! And what a mad, maniacal morality play this caper turns into! In the past Remo and Chiun have had to deal with every make of charlatan, thug, and assassin. No problem. But a revered, berobed, and bejeweled Indian Holy Man! A certified crazy like Maharaji Gupta Mahesh Dor, the Blissful Master of the International Divine Bliss Mission? Much to be concerned about. Legend has it that if a holy man is harmed within the sacred grounds of Patna, all of India will tremble and the heavens will crack. Big deal, just another troubleshoot for the boys. Then there is a death in Patna. A tremendous earthquake follows. The White House is shook up. The CIA and KKK get involved. The TV crews arrive. Hell has broken loose. But Remo and Chiun have barely begun. Things were never like this in ol' Sinanju. Or California. Oh, yes, some of the faithful depart this earthly vale--the hard way. Remo and Chiun can be so deadly serious. cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363

Subject: Here is link From: Ebay Alert To: EBay Alert Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:51:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363 Remo Williams and Chuin take on the evil Maharaji and his Divine Bliss Mission cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523496363

Subject: slight resemblance to anyone we know? From: cq To: Ebay Alert Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:10:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nah, it couldn't be - he's meditating! www.urec.net/users/cobug/ebay/destroyer19.jpg

Subject: PS - the EV website now calls the Maha From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:44:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS - the EV website now calls the Maha by his real name: Prem Rawat! (the maharaji monicker is given as an a.k.a.) link to relevant EV webpage here www.elanvital.org/Maharaji.html

Subject: How to Survive in a Stupid Cult From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:03:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK, a simple testament to a good vibe: Feeling Pat McCabe From East Kilbride, Scotland Today feels really nice Looking forward to Amaroo feels really nice That is the way I like it Nice and simple

Subject: The Art of Appreciation and Gratitude From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:04:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe premies can start doing these pieces for the corporate reception room market. Watch out for the Staples www.enjoyinglife.org/ENJOYLIFE/knowledge.nsf/frame_sets/English_Site_Letters

Subject: Re: The Art of Appreciation and Gratitude From: Mucho Gracias To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:12:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoying Life: Expressions I've never liked computers. I feel I probably should've been born 100 years ago. But they are such a great way to keep in touch that along with everything else, I thank Maharaji for this too. Mary Largess Wells, ME, USA

Subject: credit where credit is due From: cq To: Mucho Gracias Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:13:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmmmm ... made me wonder if there are any other things you don't like that you thank M for? EPO perhaps?

Subject: Sorry, it's Blanca Oraa's 'Expression' From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 12:07:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check out the picture. Here's the text: Self-portrait Through these mixed self-portraits I have discovered for myself the simplest way to express what has been evolving in my life since I have received Knowledge. Each self-portrait contains four sections representing my real self as shown to me through the four techniques of Knowledge. Within these sections, I have placed many small pieces of paper in different colours and sizes which portray different aspects of my life. As I created each section; I chose to fasten all the different aspects together with staples because of the intensity, impact and power of each breath on them. These life-giving, incredible gifts fasten me to the miracle of life. This is my entelechy in action. Is that a cult-approved word? Does Maharaji know it? 'My life is a straight line written with the words: Thank You.'

Subject: Entelechy From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 21:39:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat used that word several years ago during one of his guffs. It's used in philosophy,apparently,to mean realisation/perfection,I'd never heard it before. The Great One must've been bored out of his skull,flipping through a dictionary,before that event.

Subject: Entelechy and how he learned the word From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 05:54:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have it on good authority that he learned the word while perusing an old copy of Readers' Digest. Apparently, it is agya to keep a copy in each of his many golden throne rooms.

Subject: Re: Entelechy From: McDuck To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:27:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to Merriam-Webster online: Main Entry: en·tel·e·chy Pronunciation: en-'te-l&-kE, in- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -chies Etymology: Late Latin entelechia, from Greek entelecheia, from entelEs complete (from en- 2en- + telos end) + echein to have Date: 1603 1 : the actualization of form-giving cause as contrasted with potential existence 2 : a hypothetical agency not demonstrable by scientific methods that in some vitalist doctrines is considered an inherent regulating and directing force in the development and functioning of an organism I reckon the same guy who explained 'elan vital' passed it on to him. Vitalist doctrines, indeed

Subject: thanks, Jim, for... From: Gregg To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:48:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...providing this link. all this time I thought you were writing parodies of premie poetry and passing them off as the real deal. Nah, not really. Those delightful little snippets are parody-proof. How can you get any more simple-minded than those 'Expressions?' Right. You can't. These things are a function of cultic dumbing-down of all the aesthetic, intellectual, moral, and, yes, spiritual faculties of the human being. And this latest link of yours proves that one's abilities in the visual arts atrophies as surely as does one's versifying talents.

Subject: Portraits From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:06:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Small bits of paper, staples, self-portraits, miracles Hmmmm? Yep, pretty much sums it all up! :)

Subject: Another person discovers From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:58:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please click on above link. Richard's post - 20 Years Later www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes&id=13753.12574075348

Subject: Visions has SHRUNK From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 21:10:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Visions International is no longer selling video tapes, or even watches and teacups. All that's left, after the fire sale I guess, is a satellite schedule (once a week showing video tapes of earler 'events,' heavily edited I'm sure). I'm really upset because I wanted to buy a copy of the Passages video to send to Dr. Ron Geaves, at Chester College in England, so he can watch himself participate in what appear to be bald-faced lies. Oh, yeah, there is also a section on the website where you can make 'donations' but that's it. Nothing else there. I'm sure those watches that remind you to breathe are now collector's items. Another piece of evidence of the incredibly shrinking cult. Visions www.visionsinternational.org/

Subject: C'mon Joe,we know why you're upset... From: La-ex To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:54:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's because you had your heart set on some of those 'every breath' coffee cups to go along with that shri hans memorial plate that you've got on your wall. You can level with us Joe, it's all 'holy company' here..... I know it's hard to deal with disappointment like that, but I'm going to see if I can pull some strings and get you a deal on some of those 50 foot swans left over from millenium. I think they're still in Houston somewhere..... Oh yeah, a few honey oat bars and a leisure suit from divine sales might make you feel better too... Best wishes, La-ex

Subject: Re: C'mon Joe,we know why you're upset... From: Joe To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:13:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if those big swans still exist. I wouldn't be surprised if some premie, or ex-premie more likely, has them buried in their basement or garage someplace. I do miss the honey oat bars, though. As awful as they were, there is nothing like peanut butter, honey and rolled oats, all mashed together in compressed into squares, to bring a smile to your face and nectar dripping down your throat! :)

Subject: Still good after 29 years From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:58:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple o' these and a glass of that aged apple cider before the 55 gallon drum explodes. Hmmmmm, such grace. Millennium Bar 64.45.46.159/photo/MilleniumBar.jpg

Subject: Wow, where'd you get that image, Richard? From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:18:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That brought back a lot of memories! I thought they were kind of good, actually, wouldn't mind having one to munch on these days in place of chocolate. Hey maybe that's a new marketing strategy for Visions? If SoHo sodas can make a million, maybe millennium bars can, too? The title's appropriate, somehow. Also, remember all those little baggies of cashews and raisins left over from Millennium festival? We ate from those for months, also. Seems like only yesterday . . .

Subject: From the gettin' place From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:42:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was sent to me by a FOF (Friend of Forum). Yes I remember the nuts and raisins very well. That brings to mind another of my early drips. The family that packaged the nuts and raisins, fronted the whole deal to DLM. Post Millennium, DLM never paid them along with many other businesses. I heard that family went bankrupt because the size of the order. More of the Lord's Divine Lila, eh?

Subject: If it's any help, I could give you mine From: Jim To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:14:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've got one of those very beautiful swan-motif coffee cups on my desk. I use it for pens but I hear it holds a very beautiful cup of coffee. Yours for a price, Joe. Honestly. (You pay shipping).

Subject: You aren't serious, are you? From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:15:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you really have one of those coffee cups? Didn't they cost something like $40 each? I know you wouldn't have bought something like that. Was it a gift from a premie, trying to entice you back into the cult with expensive gifts? But I'm afraid I'm not into the swan motif, though. It's been done to death, you know. What is it now? Southwestern? No that was the 80s. Seems to be art deco that's in these days.

Subject: Excuse me?! Yes I AM serious From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 19:23:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I've got the cup because Bill, oh sorry, bill, sent it to me. And Joe, what can I tell you? It's very beautiful and does indeed make a delightful addition to any collection of cult paraphanelia and chitchkas. And 'in', Joe? I don't do 'in'. This is timeless beauty, we're talking. You want it or not? Because if you don't, I'm going to offer it on LG. Let's see, how about $45 and another, um, $20 for shipping? Think about it.

Subject: Yiddish Lessons for Jim From: OTS To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:33:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: chitchkas What the hell, Jim? Is this some kind of new age Yiddish? It's pronounced CHAATCH-KEYS, I don't know the spelling of the transliteration, but no way is it spelled or pronounced the way you've got it. Been watching too many 'Joey Bishop' reruns up there in the Provinces?

Subject: Joey! From: Jim To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:29:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: chitchkas What the hell, Jim? Is this some kind of new age Yiddish? It's pronounced CHAATCH-KEYS, I don't know the spelling of the transliteration, but no way is it spelled or pronounced the way you've got it. Been watching too many 'Joey Bishop' reruns up there in the Provinces? --- LOL!

Subject: Cult Genitalia From: Crazy Prem's Discount Daze To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:09:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: X-Rated Visions Liquidation We must crrraaaazzzyy. We're overstocked folks. Come on down to Crazy Prem's Deep Discount Daze and buy our X-rated premie genitalia paraphernalia. Either way, you're f**ked! EIYDHIWFU vibrators, Swan motif pocket pussies, Teach Me Devotion rubbers, Rock Me Maharaji whips and Roll Me Tonite handcuffs, Monica Blow-Up Party Dolls - all priced to BLOW YER WAD! Don't Delay . . . Don't Doubt . . . In God We Trust - All Others Pay With Their Lives

Subject: Back to the Future;) From: Catweasel To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 03:31:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem to think things will stay the same no matter what.I'll be kind and give you a clue. Digital Vs Analogue. 33.3 Modems Vs Broadband. Print Vs Download. Vcr v/s....? Tell me Joe do you still wind up your gramaphone? Do you have a pay phone in the hallway? And is it a hassle having to hand crank your Baby Austin 7 so you can head off to the Drugstore to buy your Soda Pop? I dont know whether you are deliberately putting a negative spin on this or whether you live in some Philidelphia project type time warp. Think of what the possibilities are.............it will be easier to understand change that way...

Subject: Cult Cult Cult. From: AJW To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:58:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Cat, You're in a cult. And you think you're following the living Perfect Master. Sorry pal. It's a cult. Cult. Cult Cult. Anth the Living Perfect Plaster.

Subject: You are so funny From: Joe To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:25:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem to think things will stay the same no matter what. Where did you get that idea? In fact, I expect things to continue to change, as the cult falls apart even further. I expect more people to leave, even from that group of die-hard, 'Maharaji is God,' graying, balding, hippies who are Maharaji's (dwindling) core group. If you are referring to yet another promised technological gimmick that is finally going to bail Maharaji out of his dead-end 'mission' and FINALLY make some propagation happen, then you are more deluded than I thought, and really living in the past. How many times have we heard that?

Subject: ***WE WANT THE HEADS!! GIVE US THE HEADS!!*** From: Jim To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:18:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aw come on, Cat, where are the heads? You're so funny when you use those! Ho ho ho, I can't help laughing just thinking about them. Coem on, Cat, give us the heads!! Oh yeah, and talk about 'spin' too, will you? I gotta tell you, it's so damn funny when you do that -- use the spinnign heads and talk about how we're all spinning the truth. Ho ho ho!! Cat can do heads, everyone! Spinning ones!

Subject: I'd prefer if you gave me Heads(NT) From: Catweasel:p To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:40:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or would you prefer tails?())

Subject: I've been there and come back From: Sir Dave :p To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:04:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blah blah blah blah blah blah. Actually, that was one of your better posts but your talents are wasted on the perfect hamster, Mr Cat. Also, you give zero details about what you're talking about - just vague generalities. Something to come, something modern and technological to happen. ''Time is coming soon when the world is going to see a great, strange thing happening. Many far out things happening...'' We've heard it all before.

Subject: Yes I know ,but we want you to do it again! From: Catweasel|D To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:53:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave I'm not being mysterious.Visions structure has outlived it's usefuness.There are better ways to do things. It's not for me to make grand announcements as to the direction he may choose.But being reasonably savvy with regard to the direction multi-media is taking ,I'm suggeting that you give consideration to the possibility that there are more effective means of disseminating information than the use of VCR and print.I suppose we will all have to wait and see. PS.Do you personally have to light all those Gas lamps in your home EVERY night Dave? PS Flagship Uberalles at Cheltenham tomorrow.McCoys out of sorts...

Subject: Re: Broadband From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 04:06:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, The vast majority of the population of this planet do not have broadband. Are they now excluded from learning about Maharaji and Knowledge? I think the explanation that the cult is shrinking fits the facts better. John.

Subject: talk about THICK From: Peter Moles To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 21:37:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The vast majority of the population of this planet do not have broadband. Are they now excluded from learning about Maharaji and Knowledge?' What a complete joke! let's put this in perspectice and change the words a bit. The time - early 1920's. You John, talking to a person excited about the new technology of the time. 'The vast majority of the population of this country do not have horseless carriages. Are they now excluded from travelling about the country and getting to town?' See how utterly ridiculous you sound? All Mr weasel is talking about is the next step in communications technology. You already know that mr rawat has always been at the very vanguard of such things and will be the first to use any sophisticated advance in global communications. Sometimes I understand why Knowledge passed you by. Knowledge is not for the very thick. The Manager of U2 was talking to some of us the other day and explaing how outraged he was at Bono's onstage antics at Live Aid wembly Stadium performance. Bono jumped down into the crowd and mingled etc, making the 'show' less interesting for those present. Then he (manager) realised ...'Ah, but it suddenly dwned on me that our REAL audience wasn't at the stadium at all, it was at the receiving end of the world's biggest satellite linkup on hundreds of millions of TV sets all over the globe.' The global 'audience' John is what it's all about. Just because you are in the stadium now, still stuck there in the mud complaining about the dwindling crowd, please don't fool yourself into thinking that the electronic audience is not only 'there' but also thoroughly enjoying what they are seeing.

Subject: Indeed - talk about THICK From: JHB To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:44:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What Maharaji appears to be doing is removing the use of the old technology before the new technology is available even to a significant minority. Using your analogy, that's like a few people in the town getting the new horseless carriages, and then telling everyone that horses are no longer allowed in town. How to people who cannot afford satellite or internet watch Maharaji in future? Or even read about him as there are no printed materials available now? As I said, Knowledge is no longer for the poor. At least not outside India. John.

Subject: Re: Indeed - the Sky is Falling From: The Management To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:45:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh I see,there are no computers in India.Fuck mee some-one better tell Microsoft and IBM to hold those contracts!!And no-one,anywhere has a decent printer.Oh my God we should have thought about that! ____________________________________________________ | \oO()):p+) ______________________________________________|_____/

Subject: But Maharaji isn't using the Internet! From: JHB To: The Management Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 06:49:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As things stood, Maharaji's message was communicated using videos and some printed materials. Then satellite broadcasts started, but global penetration is still not high, and even in the US is only once a week. Now you guys are talking broadband like Maharaji is already using it. He is not! But he's already scrapped the videos and printed materials. Sorry guys, I know you trust your master, but in terms of propagation, this ain't making any sense. John.

Subject: No! Your kidding! From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:50:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well good John,I'll just give him a call and let him know.It's terrific that you are so in the know and super well informed. Geez it helps poor dumb schmucks like us to have some-one around who at least knows what's going on. Hey but wouldn't it just be an absolute cracker if your mail was wrong.Why I think might just wet my panties!

Subject: Maybe I am wrong, Cat, but.. From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Show me one example of Maharaji using the internet to spread knowledge? His new site is a joke, and most people wouldn't get past the awful loading period. Elan Vital and Visions sites now say absolutely nothing about Maharaji or Knowledge, so tell me Cat, what am I missing? John.

Subject: Re: Maybe you just haven't thought it through? From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:50:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did it cross your mind that the new site may just be a 'sitter' , a forerunner of things to come?I keep telling you John ,you have to start thinking.

Subject: Re: Indeed - the Sky is Falling From: Peter Moles To: The Management Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 06:29:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And for pity's sake don't tell them that within 5 years, lightning fast broadband signal will be FREELY available to anyone with a TV or computer. Or that 2/3d's of the world's population will be online (if they wish). Do people here think Knowledge is something physical that you get, shove in your pocket and walk away saying 'thanks man' ? There's no hope fopr some.

Subject: Re: Roger Waters-Radio Waves... From: Catweasel:p To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:56:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No ,they really think they have the whole box and dice sussed.Isn't it marvellous? I love being around clairvoyants!And the understanding of the direction Communication technology is taking.My God ,it's staggering and I feel priveliged to be close to these giants of the new era.... Err.... John,would you pass me that crystal set please,I'd like to listen to Blue Hills....

Subject: And another thing to think about From: JHB To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:05:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot of poorer countries get hand me down computers cheap or free as richer countries upgrade. Now, until a couple of years ago, I had a 486/66 with a 19200 connection. I could get EPO fine, but Maharaji's, EV's, and ELK's sites took an age to load. EPO is still committed to being available to anyone with an internet connection. None of the pro-Maharaji sites are. Who's getting their message through? John.

Subject: Re: And another thing ,it's early days.. From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:54:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee ,you'll have to wait and see.But I warrant you that you will be quite pleased and all your wishes will come true.Just stop kidding yourself.You are simply making statements to fit what you want,not what is happening.

Subject: Jam Tomorrow! From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:24:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Why bother putting up a site like maharaji.net just as a 'sitter'? Why not leave the old one, which at least said something, until the real new site is ready? You talk as though you are party to the planning or at least you've been told what's going to be, but my guess is that you're pissing in the wind, and find Maharaji's internet strategy as mysterious as the rest of us. Anyway, until tomorrow comes, this argument is futile, except at least you've admitted that Maharaji's current site is useless for propagation. John.

Subject: Topped with lashings of cream! From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 15:38:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Functionality boy ! I say functionality boy!. I dont piss in the wind .You end up with wet trousers like some Latvian peasant... No ,I dont see a mystery because I'm not imagining a conspiracy.

Subject: I shovel horseshit... From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:26:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... so wet trousers don't bother me, except I know which way the wind is blowing. I'm not seeing any mystery, and I'm not imagining a conspiracy. I'm witnessing an incompetency. But all you see is perfection don't you? Even when it's not there. John.

Subject: You shovel horseshit...daily onto these forum;)s From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:42:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that's a fine admission John.I agree with you on incompetence.You cant expectanymoe of yourself though ,not being in full command of the facts.... 'I shovel horseshit' |D Yeah,we know John...

Subject: Horseshit v. Cat's Piss From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Horseshit helps the flowers grow, Cat's piss kills just about everything in the garden. Bye for now. John.

Subject: If you're right...... From: PatD To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 22:21:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....& Rawat wants to rule the world through the cathode ray tube,then he truly suffers from megalomania. I wouldn't like to speculate on what you suffer from. It's people like you who turn people like me into.......I won't say it. Just don't come through my door without knocking.

Subject: If I'm right? No I couldn't be surely? From: Peter Moles To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:23:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you the geezer who posted this on LG? '....& abnasi yourself up your own Yug Yug. 1st&last time I'll ever post here. (what a relief) Joop Joop, Roop Roop, Parp Parp.' OK, a real intellectual. Hey pal, I don't think you and I are going to have a deep and meaningful relationship any time soon, if you know what I mean. And seeing we're getting personal ...People like you make me wonder what the hell I'm doing still living in England. If it wasn't for the new crocii and daffodils now brightening the garden, I'd off to Spain pronto.

Subject: My sense of humour(sob) From: PatD To: Peter Moles Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 10:01:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...obviously isn't to your taste,although given the context I thought it was pretty funny....that's because I'm one of those saddos who laughs at their own jokes. I don't like people who defend Rawat when they have access to the information(as you do)which makes such a defence an insult to the intelligence. I particularly don't like your triumphalist tone & your gleeful expectation that your master can continue to perpetuate his disgraceful con game in perpetuity. Glad to have rattled your cage.

Subject: humour? well may you sob From: Peter Moles To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 21:33:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it's apparent that your intelligence has indeed been insulted - to the point that it has scurried off into a very dark corner clear out of reach of your ever failing eyesight. I apologise for the nausea my 'triumphalist tone' brings to your sensitive and precarious state of well being. Might I suggest you try concentrating on things you do like?

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:43:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Broadband???? The people his presecessor(supposedly) want to reach, amongst others, don't even have a tv. Ceratinly this 'Knowledge' was once meant for everyone, rich, poor, crippled, athiest, religious..etc..etc... It certainly was presented as something a noble spirit would would go for. And cerainly many people believed in Maharaji(ie the person catweasel-types revere and would probably do anything for). Hower John, don't assume that everyone came to maharaji for the same reasons. It's just that the majority did and have left. The premie thing of 'do as maharaji says, not as he does' doesn't seem to work anymore. Without even discussing about any possible philosophy m may spout, most people won't tolerate a paedophile-protector narcissist or a hit and run driver and an obvious revisionist and liar(as is adequately documented). A few years ago, I had the cheek to ask a premie for the money she owed me. She really went wild at me saying that I had lent it to her at a time when people...eeer I mean premies, didn't pay each other back and that even if she had £1000000 she wouldn't repay me(Oh btw she owed me about £500). She also went bananas at me when I told her about Jagdeo insinuating that I was not allowed to criticise m at all. The catweasels of this world are like prempal and love it. It is a deceivingly smug vibe to have no values. cheers for now Jethro The truth is that catweasels master, Maharaji only makes himself available to the rich .

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Catweasel To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:20:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You totally ignore my point.I have learned to expect that and to have you add a little spin just to make it twirl()) You need to consider that what will change is the basis of all production efforts. In utilising all technical options the message becomes available to the broadest cross section of people. I find you gentlemen persistently literal to the extreme. Suffice to say if you dream it's all disappearing you will be in for a major shock. Why dont you just fess up and admit you actually dont have a clue what's happening.

Subject: Hey, that's it! Cat did a spinning head joke! From: Jim To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:21:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THANK YOU! Thank you for that, Cat. But, that was only one head, man, what's going on? We want the HEADS, Cat. Lots of them. Come on, show us how clever you are -- again. It was a good joke two months ago. It was a good joke last week. Don't give up on it, Cat. Give us the heads!!!

Subject: LOL From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:42:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL nt

Subject: LOL [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Jethro To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 06:35:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is your master's belief basis. The 'Magnus' written by his master. Opening words 'Just as a Grand Vizier pays complete attention to the wishes of his King, so a true disciple is focused completely on the wishes of his Guru Maharaj Ji. Kabir says, such a disciple’s glance never leaves his Guru for a moment, he always concentrates on Him.' Maharajis indoctrination www.ex-premie.org/papers/hyp.htm

Subject: Be: Broad minded From: Catweasel-) To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:11:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahhh but I have my own living guide.And in that I am very content. Jethro ,I've been to India more times than you have had hot breakfasts. It has it's culture and its legend. Might I suggest a movie for you to watch? 'Mississippi Masala' .East meets West in a most unconvetional manner with no punches pulled. Great scene at the Indian wedding when the father of the bride gets the guests to sing Arti.Very clearly. I have been in many places where Arti has been sung and a lot of the traditional songs that I often have heard at Indian programmes are also sung by Hindi's everywhere in India. But so what? In the West Maharaji had some hot Rock and Roll early on with me mates Ross , Lindsay, Geoff and Joe. I liked it.The Indians? I doubt it. Little cultural interludes.But K is where it's all at.Simple.K is the point of the excercise.........

Subject: Hot rock & roll, purlease From: hamzen To: Catweasel-) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 18:03:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Premie music was always unbelievably anti-septic, I'll excuse some early Apostles and a couple of tracks by Blue Aquarius, Foxfire comes to mind, but hot, jesus cat, c'mon! And don't fgorget that hot new ambient stuff coming out of rawats cheapo studio, how he does stuff that original and awe inspiring on such cheapo equipment is beyond me.

Subject: Simple minded From: Tonette To: Catweasel-) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:46:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat have your ever thought about what practicing K has done to your brain? The simple K has evolved you into a simple minded person. Not very deep, not able to answer a question directly and with information. And definately, and this is the saddest part, locked in your own world with your Master and those who are like thinking. But I guess you're happy and that is all that matters. You think M and K are just dandy and great. Okay, can no longer put two and two together. It takes all sorts of people to spin this Earth. Why exactly do you post here? Tonette

Subject: Be: Simple From: Catweasel:o To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:13:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is something for you to ponder Tonette.I realise that you have achieved superior intelligence and represent the cream of the master race but basically you sell me short. My brain still functions fine thank you.I commonly have to draft 100 to 200 page accurate documents.Because I am but a feeble minded brain addled K addicted lowlife fool ,then I must fail at this task with monotonous regularity.Strange thing is they keep asking me to do harder and harder projects.Maybe I'm like that John Travolta character in the movie where he achieves super IQ only to be diagnosed with an inoperable tumor.And to think that darn K caused it all! Damn!

Subject: Why can't you learn from experience From: Jethro To: Catweasel:o Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:28:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and stop pissing in the wind.

Subject: Re: Broadband From: Catweasel To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 04:53:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John I didn't say what was happening.I gave Joe some things to think about.Here's one for you.Try and give things a little mor consideration before speaking?

Subject: What are you talking about? From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:07:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat, Well why didn't you say what was happening? Why don't you ever come out and say what you are thinking? Why do you always hint at stuff? Why don't you know how to communicate? John

Subject: What are you in need of John? From: Catweasel:p To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 08:15:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I do John.But you'll just have to be a good reverse Devotee and wait like the rest of us.OK?()) Now learn to be patient John....

Subject: Re: What are you in need of John? From: test To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:08:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, everyone, he did it again!! From: Jim To: Catweasel:p Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:24:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another one, huh Cat? That was, like, REALLY FUNNY! But I wish you just did it all the time, instead of only sometimes. I'm telling you, Cat, it's probably the funniest thing I've ever seen. Give us those spinning heads, Cat, because it says sooooo much, everytime you do. You bet!

Subject: And it looks SOOOO tacky From: gerry To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 22:35:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gawd offal looking website. It's down to broadcasts schedules and contribution hustling, huh? He's gonna cut his losses and ride off into the sunset with his remaining ragged band of masochists, I'll betcha.

Subject: These might make you laugh From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:35:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If any of you are having a bad day, or even if you are not, take a look at these, courtesy of my partner Kevin. Good Laugh Pictures www.danjacoby.com/SillyPix/

Subject: THANKS Joe! [nt] From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:30:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Joe/Kevin i needed that (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:50:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: hits a day From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:23:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry, if it's you that knows these things - do you know how many hits a day this forum is getting? I remember seeing the numbers mentioned off and on a few weeks back but not lately. Do you or does anyone know the figures, out of interest? Love, Livia

Subject: Millions served From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:36:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Since August 2001 when this current incarnation of the forum began we've had 1,456,624 'page views'

Subject: Re: Millions served From: JHB To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That translates at about 7,000 page views a day. The EPO sites get about 2,000 pages view per day. John the statto.

Subject: Can someone e-mail Cynthia? From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:56:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And ask her if her sodium levels have ever been checked, as well as finding out if she's on any antibiotics? It seems the antibiotic being given to my mother makes her "split" into a seperate entity, and be "talked" to by other persons inside her head. This is a new antibiotic given not for infection but to regulate a low sodium level. If it had not been for Cynthia, I would not have even begun to comprehend what is happening. Needless to say, we're questioning the validity of the antibiotic. She also "sees" a little girl, as well as, a male therapist and thinks her sister's name is Barbara. This all started with multiple new medications. Thought it might be worth passing on to Cynthia. Drug allergy reactions are terribly overlooked and very few doctors understand them or acknowledge them.

Subject: I just did From: Moley To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 07:03:27 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I emailed Cynthia your post. xxx

Subject: Forum Admin -- a request From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:20:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think it'd be possible to change the links so that when you advertise that there are some new 'Lives', 'Days', 'Wit and Wisom' or 'Expressions' entries the reader could go directly there instead of having to click the month as well in between? Thanks :)

Subject: NO! From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:44:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what was the question again?

Subject: FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:05:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This article is now 4 years old but, stangely, still has a present day resonance. I wonder what prompted Rebecca Jones to write this all up? Anyone? FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION Rebecca Jones Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer 823 words 30 January 1998 Rocky Mountain News FINAL 2D English Copyright (c) 1998 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Whatever happened to Guru Maharaj-Ji, the 12-year-old 'perfect master' whose followers made Denver their headquarters? He once rented most of the Kittridge Building downtown, and one of his followers around Denver was Chicago 7 defendant Rennie Davis. They started the Rainbow Grocery on Colfax. He was supposedly descended from a long line of gurus in India. - Ely, Denver Things haven't gone so well for the guru in the last 20 years, though success is relative. He didn't bring the world peace, as he promised, but at last report he was living in a Malibu mansion valued at $15 million, with other homes in England, New Delhi, Rome, Madrid and who knows where else; driving his choice of a Rolls-Royce, a Maserati, a Ferrari or a garageful of other expensive cars; jetting around the planet on a $25 million Lear jet; or sailing on his $3 million yacht. The number of his followers has shrunk dramatically from the early '70s, when he established the national headquarters of his Divine Light Mission in Denver. Back then, he claimed to have 6 million devotees. Things started to sour on the guru in 1974 when, at age 16, he married Marolyn Johnson, a flight attendant twice his age. His mother didn't like her, and she set about trying to get her oldest son, Bal Bhagwan Ji, named head of the DLM in India. A nasty battle ensued, and by the time things got all sorted out in the mid-'80s, not much was left of the organization. All the ashrams (communes for his followers) were closed, and the name of the organization was changed to Elan Vital in the United States and England. Nowadays, former cult members estimate Maharaji (he's dropped the Guru from his name and simplified the spelling) has 100,000 to 200,000 followers, mostly in India and Nepal. He's said to encourage his followers to offer him donations - which they dutifully do - so he and his 'nonprofit' Elan Vital avoid taxes. The former guru is closing in on the big 4-0 this year but shows no signs of slowing down. Various reports have him attending upwards of a hundred lectures and conferences a year, mostly in India and Nepal. He and his wife have at least three kids, one of whom is an Elan Vital exec. For an extensive backgrounder on the guru, his successes and his foibles, check out the Web site http: / / www.ex-premie.org/ .

Subject: And another one .. From: Op To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:40:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's another one. Wonder if Sarah Marriott is a pwk pretending to be a journalist or maybe a journalist pretending to be a pwk? Either way the article sure puts a positive spin on things. Just loved these lines: Maharaji, who resembles Buddha, except for his business suit and One five-year-old son of a premie asked a nun to explain why she followed a dead master (Jesus), when she could follow a living master, Maharaji. Note to EV Monitors: Maybe you should tell the Irish pwks that Maharaji is no longer the Lord of the Universe, just an aspiring meditation teacher! OP :) Let's get blissed. 773 words 30 January 1999 Irish Times 82 English (c) 1999 Since introducing his spiritual techniques to the West, Indian-born guru `Maharaji' has found tens of thousands of willing followers, many of them in Ireland, who will go to some lengths to achieve `Knowledge'. Sarah Marriott reports `Maharaji has totally changed my life,' says Sylvia. 'There isn't a word good enough to describe the way I feel. I feel blissed.' Sylvia, (23) a Dublin sales assistant, has joined the growing band of Irish people following the small plump Indian, known as Maharaji (pronounced Ma-rah-ji), who teaches meditation techniques called 'Knowledge', and has been variously described as a motivational teacher, 'a Master, like Christ' and a cult leader. 'I heard about Maharaji from my brother who got Knowledge when he was 21, about 20 years ago,' says Sylvia. 'I just grew up with it. Ten years ago, my mother got Knowledge and then I did, three years ago.' Every month, in 23 towns around Ireland, from Macroom to Omagh, hundreds of people of all ages and backgrounds turn up to over 70 'events' - meetings where 'premies', (followers of Maharaji) and 'aspirants' (those who would like to receive the 'gift' he offers) watch videos of his lectures. Compared with many other 'gurus' who came to the West in the early 1970s, Maharaji's staying power is impressive and his popularity is growing - particularly in Africa, apparently. In the past 10 years, according to publicity material, more than 79,000 people have received 'Knowledge', and a recent global satellite link-up of Maharaji speaking attracted adoring audiences of more than 86,000 in 173 locations in 50 countries. In Dublin, around 300 people braved winter weather and paid #15 to experience the short talk in Trinity College. Maharaji, who resembles Buddha, except for his business suit, is now attracting a second generation of Irish followers. Teenage children of couples who got Knowledge more than 20 years ago, are now attending video events. 'I never pushed my children,' says one premie. 'One of my sons goes because he enjoys it.' One five-year-old son of a premie asked a nun to explain why she followed a dead master (Jesus), when she could follow a living master, Maharaji. So what is this 'gift' called Knowledge offered by Maharaji? It's hard to say - because his followers vow never to reveal the techniques. 'It's very simple,' says philosophy student, Finn McClean (22) from Holywood, Co Down who learnt the techniques 18 months ago, after spending two years attending events. 'It's not a complicated system or a philosophy. It's just four techniques - which have helped me. The hour that I practise every day quiets the mind,' he explains. Aspirants are required to attend video events once a week for five months before they can ask to receive the 'gift', and then instructors decide if the seeker is ready. No payment is required, although there is always a donation box at events. Detractors believe his luxury lifestyle (Californian mansion, private plane etc) is supported by 'contributions' from his followers. Supporters, however, claim he has private business interests which are part of his 'private persona' and therefore none of their concern. What is certain, though, is that some premies devote their lives and savings to travelling to see their guru. Last year, Robert (not his real name), who has been a follower since 1972, heard Maharaji speak five times - in Miami, Brighton, London (at Wembley Stadium), Delhi (with 70,000 other premies) and Nepal. The Maharaji was born Prem Pal Rawat in India in 1957. He was seven years old when his dying father named him as his successor, the next Guru Maharaji. At 14, encouraged by Westerners on the hippie trail, he came to the West to spread his message. In the cause of globalisation, all Indian traditions have disappeared, as Maharaji attempts to reach as many people as possible - from Ghana to Peru. Everything comes from the man himself, who teaches the techniques to mass audiences. In his mission, Maharaji is supported by Elan Vital, an international organisation which arranges video events. In Ireland, Elan Vital (registered as an educational trust and run on a non-profit basis) relies on word-of-mouth. 'We do not advertise or proselytise,' says voluntary press officer Declan Dunne, who is wary of media attention and stresses Maharaji is not a cult leader. 'You come when you want. And go when you want. You're always welcome. It's important people should approach it with discrimination. There are a lot of weird things out there.' For information on video events, tel (01) 857 0301.

Subject: been a long time From: 210 To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:08:33 (EST) Email Address: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com Message: Hello, Friends. It's been ages since I was able to get here. Things have been so very rocky and fragile that I haven't gotten on the computer at all. Finally, I felt I had to check in. As I said, it's been rocky. Two months ago, my partner was in such a state, distant, cold and angry, about my feelings toward rawat, I very nearly left because I couldn't take any more of it. It's better now, but still, as I said, fragile. Nice job, Rawat Asshole Ji. Cripple my beloved and destroy our relationship. I have a question, which may have been discussed or answered while I was not here. the broadcasts are down to once a week now, thankfully! Has anybody heard a reason for this? I'm curious as to why. Thank you all. Even though I am rarely able to read here, I am grateful that this place exists.

Subject: Hello From: Loaf To: 210 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 02:05:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear about your troubles. As to the REAL reason why broadcasts are down (and they are of old events anyway).. I think that Rawat is probably pissed off about money.. and engaging in a combined sulk and emotional blackmail. After all, do the Premies really DESERVE more events ?

Subject: New White Pages Entries & A Journey From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:02:07 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Nick Kane and Ronald Harold have submitted their White Pages entries. Ronald didn't say when he became an ex but from our email exchange he is quite definitely an ex. Here is his brief Journey entry which, after much thought, I decided not to add to EPO as it stood, although I cannot fault the sentiment:- FUCK MAHARAJI..........I RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE IN 1980; AFTER REVIEWING THIS WEBSITE, I FEEL MUCH BETTER, BUT FEEL SO VERY BAD FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF MAHARAJI & CO.......MAMA SAID KNOCK YOU OUT, BITCH..... SOMEONE OUGHT TO KNOCK THAT MOTHERFUCKER SENSELESS........I HOPE HE READS THIS- HE'S A REAL PUNKASS MAHARAJI TAKES ARROGANCE AND MATERIALISM TO ANOTHER LEVEL, EVEN BEYOND THE ENRON BASTARDS- MAHARAJI STOLE PEOPLE'S HEARTS AND MINDS AND SMOKED THEM UP......FUCKING BASTARD......I WONDER IF HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HIS KARMIC DEBT......I DOUBT IT.....RON

Subject: Re: New White Pages Entries & A Journey From: rocky To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:54:35 (EST) Email Address: awarenezz@yahoo.com Message: hi nick, if you happen to read this..would be great if you would contact me at above e-mail address..remember wiesbaden back in 1977 or so, you and minne and me and my x and martin and eva had in mind renting a house in the country to form a premie house..you had rattle- snake sneakers on for gigs with a countryband and turned me on to the outlaws..we shared a motel room together at an orlando festival and minne was breastfeeding ruby and leila at the same time, great pic: holy mother in action..cheers rocky

Subject: Way to go Ron.... From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:22:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....Soulbrother.

Subject: Tell us how you really feel, Ron From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:55:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Holy smokes! JHB, I think your assesment that Ron is an ex is quite accurate.

Subject: The Ferryman? From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:40:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found on EPO Question: What happens to people who don't understand and don't practice ? Maharaji: Kabir says, if you are standing on a boat and taking someone out of the water, if you can take him out of that river, well and good, take him out. If you can't, then give him two pushes more, otherwise he will bring you down with him. If you are standing in the boat and someone is drowning in the water, take him up if you can. If you can't, then give him two pushes more ! --- So I better watch out for the ferryman I guess - I may be pushed, pushed presumably underwater. I am still wondering what the hell Maharaji (or even Kabir) may have meant by this! Perhaps a pwk lurker, or Elan Vital monitor could help me out? Sorry if this quote proves painful for anyone. Opie (The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vol. 3 page 62, Published by Divine United Organisation, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi-110030) Click here for relevant EPO page. www.ex-premie.org/papers/rottenv.htm

Subject: Don't Pay the Ferryman.. From: Bai Ji To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 18:53:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ha! I read this thread this morning before going to the beach for a swim and on the way back guess what 'Divine Lila' 'Grace' that old Chris de Burgh song came on the radio.... Chorus Don't pay the Ferryman Don't even fix a price Don't pay the Ferryman UNTIL HE GETS YOU TO THE OTHER SIDE! then later on And then the Ferryman said 'There is Trouble ahead' (Same old scare the pants off em stuff) Kali Yuga, Rotting Veges going to hell) So you Must pay me Now (Don't do it) You Must pay me Now (Don't do it) And then a voice came from behind..whatever you do Don't pay the Ferryman Don't even fix a price Don't pay the Ferryman UNTIL HE GETS YOU TO THE OTHER SIDE! Ball's in your Court Kabir/Maharaji/Enron

Subject: Re: The Ferryman? From: PatD To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:06:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess Rawat used that quote to reinforce the never have doubt business. Don't even give the time of day to premies who are spaced out,i.e not 110% on the golden road to his feet. In their minds,too intellectual,in the woodwork & all that. As I was in that category for most of the heavy devotional period,& may even have been present when he said that(he said so much along those lines then it's difficult to remember),I know exactly what he meant. He was saying to ME....get it together or you're fucked bigtime. That of course was too much to take on board,so I knew it applied more to dozens of other people who were even more spaced out than me...& so on down the line I'm sure. Back then of course he had an unlimited supply of eager beavers to cater for his every whim,so I reckon he could afford to lose a few. Interestingly,it's the old spacers who refused to drown who are now the main audience,whereas the guys who made it onto the boat in those days jumped off years ago. As for Kabir;Survival of the Fittest in action for you, 400yrs or whatever before Social Darwinism,Nazi Eugenics,& Special Forces psychological training. What a prophet!

Subject: Heeding the words of the master From: Lesley To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:19:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said that or similar on many occasions, and, imo, it is one of those pieces of advice that intrigue because there is an element of truth in it. Having had a fair bit to do with water safety issues, here in Australia, I know there has been quite a push to make people think about what to do before attempting to save someone who is in difficulties in the water. There were quite substantial statistics of secondary drownings, ie where a person attempting a rescue becomes another victim. Just recently a woman was telling me about a time at the beach when she saw her son getting caught in a rip (a current). Not a strong swimmer, herself, she nonetheless swam with the power of adrenalin, and reached her son. Fortunately a couple of surfboarders saw what was happening and went to the rescue. She got her son up onto a board, and then collapsed and needed rescuing as well. (Ideally she would have alerted other people to what was happening, borrowed a board, sent out a stronger swimmer, etc) Okay, so there's the kernel of truth, it has to do with a real situation, drowning, and has most inappropriately been applied to the subject of saving souls, with an added embellishment of pushing, PUSHING??? I guess, when someone listens to the glad tidings that the Lord has come, and then says, thanks, but no thanks, it is an embarassment to the Lord, so now they are characterised as 'drowning' and impervious to help, so should be shoved away, as far away as possible. Of course, as you sit there trying to make sense of the Master's discourse, you might try seeing it as alluding to a personal level. IE, that if a person is distressed, you can try to cheer them up, but if you find that you are starting to feel distressed too, then push them away. Which, sadly, is the callow attitude many premies have. Witness the shockingly cruel response Cynthia got on Life's Grate to her plain, open, detailed post on her time at Deca.

Subject: Re: Heeding the words of the master From: Livia To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:54:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'IE, that if a person is distressed, you can try to cheer them up, but if you find that you are starting to feel distressed too, then push them away. Which, sadly, is the callow attitude many premies have.' That passage reminds me of something that once happened to me at a festival in Rome. I was feeling bad for some reason and bumped into a premie 'friend'. She was 'blissed out' and noticed by the expression on my face that I wasn't. I think I told her I was 'in my head' or some such premie jargon, and she expressed something akin to revulsion. I think her words were 'oh please go away, I really don't want to be brought down by you.' It sounds like a small, trivial instance and it probably was, but it has obviously remained in my memory for some reason. Looking at it now, it's obvious. I remember it so vividly because it epitomised the contradiction inherent in so much of premie behaviour; ie my bliss/feeling of love is of supreme importance - do not disturb it under any circumstances. I came to Knowledge under the impression that love looked outward as well as inward - surely if that premie was feeling genuine love for God she would have had enough left over to have uttered a couple of kind, empathetic words, because really that's all I needed. Now as everything falls into place, it seems as if what she was experiencing was a form of narcissism masquerading as bliss. In other words, she was basking in the feeling that Maharaji loved her, and from where she was no one else mattered at all. Hence the mad rush for seats, trampling everyone in their wake. 'I love Maharaji, Maharaji loves me!' A premie world filled with people lost in their own individual love affair with Maharaji, where any caring for people other than oneself is secondary or worse. Love, Livia who managed to make it out of that dark, gloomy, sad little world.

Subject: Great analysis From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now as everything falls into place, it seems as if what she was experiencing was a form of narcissism masquerading as bliss. In other words, she was basking in the feeling that Maharaji loved her, and from where she was no one else mattered at all. Hence the mad rush for seats, trampling everyone in their wake. 'I love Maharaji, Maharaji loves me!' A premie world filled with people lost in their own individual love affair with Maharaji, where any caring for people other than oneself is secondary or worse. Livia, I think you are really on to something here. In one sense the whole premie trip is completely selfish. It's all just focus on your own 'experience' and how to 'get it.' At the same time, it often leads to depression and a truncated life because one is so focused on your own little 'experience bubble' and the fact that you don't have the bliss most of the time. It's a recipe for both narcissism, depression and a kind of frantic need to "get the juice" you think Maharaji might have for you. I think Maharaji is the best example of this, and the premies, especially somebody like Catweasel, appears to emulate him. It's just fine to care nothing of the state of the rest of humanity, about moral issues, because you don't care about Maharaji's either, and he says you don't have to care about your own. And you can treat people like crap, especially those who criticize Maharaji, because it just doesn't matter in the Maharaji world. And the way you described it as a dark and gloomy world was so true for me, at least for the last few years in the cult. 'Dark' describes it very well. It was only after I got out of it that I realized how dark it really was. And even when I was miserable in those years, I would have told you it was beautiful and full of light. I think I was afraid that if I stated the truth, it might become a reality for me, so I tried to keep the facade going until I just couldn't do it anymore. At the time, I left the cult more out of exhaustion and resignation than outright rejection. Of course, after I left, and got my wits about me, it all came more into focus, what really had been happening.

Subject: the dark years From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:23:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was around the time of the 'dinner' in London with Maharaji in 1986 that I began to get a distinctly funny feeling. Maharaji put on a 'dinner' in a posh hotel in London; they probably happened in America too, I don't know. It cost £40 to go, which was quite a lot of money in those days. I felt I just HAD to go - any opportunity to be 'with him' etc etc. Felt a bit funny about the fact that a lot of people just couldn't afford to go, and there weren't enough tickets for everybody, but hey! I managed to get the money together and off I went in a borrowed dress. We all sat at tables, seating was arranged so I ended up having to sit with a table full of people I didn't know, and didn't particularly take to either. After eating a formal meal, Maharaji came on stage for probably about 20 minutes, maybe less? All I can remember is that he told a couple of dirty jokes and then left. And I was left with a distinctly odd feeling, like, what had that been all about? At the time I was working with a particularly good bunch of people, not premies. They really put themselves out for each other and were fun and intelligent. I kept on meditating every day and going to programmes etc, but the premie world began to look a bit shabby to me around then. Something had definitely gone. Even Charanand started to look troubled, as I mentioned in a thread above. What began to look really noticeable to me at around that point was how little the premies seemed to care about anything or anyone outside their little world. The world outside that little world looked brighter, and brighter so that's where I went. Of course the core belief about 'who Maharaji was' remained unshaken - the 10 previous years of intense conditioning had gone too deep. I couldn't remain in that little world, but of course there was no one to talk to about one's feelings. Couldn't talk to non premies because that would be disloyal, couldn't talk to ex-premies - ditto, and couldn't talk to premies because they would think you were manmat!!! What a relief to find EPO and the forum here and to be finally able to express all those unexamined feelings. 1978 - 1982: another weird time. I meditated diligently daily, sometimes for up to two hours, sometimes having quite profound experiences, sometimes not - like most premies I expect. Going to satsang daily, doing service, going to every programme possible. But in my heart of hearts I was in a dark, gloomy place. The experience was just not sustainable in daily life; it just wasn't there. No doubt there will be premies reading this who are thinking: 'She obviously didn't get it, etc etc' but that's just not true! I really loved Maharaji, prayed to him daily, did whatever I could, gave people satsang - he was the meaning of my whole existence. But at that point, without more to my life than satsang, service and meditation, my life was sad, dark and gloomy. In fact, in all honesty I would say that stage began in 1977. The years before that - 72-76 - were wonderful. Any parallels, anyone? With love, Livia

Subject: Re: the dark years From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:23:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just love reading your posts, Livia. All interesting stuff.

Subject: The dinner in 1986 From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:49:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the dinner! It was in the London Hilton, Park Lane. I rented a dinner suit from Moss Bros and we were all there pretending to be respectable people instead of the former hippy cult members we were. I remember at one point during the evening a queue developed in front of the head table where people were asking Maharaji to sign their invitations or menus or something. I remember thinking I should join them but I was too scared. A premie opera singer sang, I can't remember his name but he was good, and afterwards, myself, my wife, and a premie couple we knew, tried to have a drink in the penthouse bar. The guy on the door looked at us like we were aliens, and asked if we were from the function on the second floor. We said we were and he told us that the cover charge was nine pounds per person with a tone of voice that said he knew it was too much for us. Ah, strange days! John.

Subject: Re: The dinner in 1986 From: OTS To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:01:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, thanks for sharing your deep feelings about the bad feelings you were having over the years prior to exiting. That gnawing in the pit of one's stomach was real, it turns out. Thanks for the memories, too. I loved that dinner that my wife and I attended. New York's midtown Hilton Hotel was the site of the formal 1986 dinner. Tuxedos for the head table and many of the attendees. A wonderful first class presentation. The desert especially was memorable, including chocolate cups filled with crème swimming in a raspberry sauce. There was a cash bar with New York bartenders. It was lovely. I am just sorry we couldn't afford it more than once in 30 years. Playing dress up was fun. I don't know how the limited number of tickets were allocated. Some got tears instead of tickets, I'm sure. I think it cost $125 a plate, but I'm not sure. Smoked a fatty in the alley just prior to my musical performance.

Subject: Rawat is a prat From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:16:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd guess most premies at one time or another have been disturbed to witness the outta control stampedes that sometimes happen when Mr Rawat is out and about, and there is a chance to, um, 'receive darshan'. It's not a pretty sight. I can't imagine it's a pretty sight from his perspective, either. But I reckon he has only himself to blame for that. It's no different to a rock concert, the star gets up on stage and croons away, with everything he's got, 'Love me tonight, I need you so bad', and then has to hire security men to disabuse the bulk of people who are trying to get backstage to comply with the request, apart from whomever he has picked, of course. I doubt if there are many premies who actually like the stampedes, but, if my memory serves me well, we were too busy trying to keep out of them to actually ask ourselves why they happened. Simple human kindness was often a casualty of the fraught situation, and that matters, it matters a lot. Primed as we were with stories of God, stories of Jesus and his disciples, we accepted Mr Rawat's assertion that the bond a premie forms towards him is Divine Love. It is not. It really is not. It is made of the same stuff as the bond you form with any other person. Once I was able to grasp that, I was free from the confusion that premies dwell in, the perennial question a premie deals with, 'Why is it that the 'World of Maharaji' is so harsh?' Not so difficult to understand once you stop thinking you have this special heart place, separate to your 'ordinary emotions', which manufactures 'divine love'. Okay, I believed Mr Porky Pie, fell for his show, hook line and sinker, but now I know, and know for sure, Rawat really is a prat. Love, Lesley

Subject: YAY Leslie! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:07:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Ferryman? From: Richard To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:04:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall another version of the same message from M was something like 'If you see a drowning person, try to save him (introduce them to M&K) but if they try to pull you down then push them away.' Another way of saying 'It's all about my own experience'. I was thinking recently about how, in my more enchanted days, I would conciously avoid even good friends if I perceived that their energy might bring me down. Nice guy I was.

Subject: charanamrit From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:55:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody here remember charanamrit, the drops of water apparently taken from a bowl of water used to wash Maharji's feet? This was then mixed with other water and given out in small containers to be diluted yet again for premies to sip from a spoon after arti. Yikes! The memory just flipped back into my brain yesterday for some reason. A good one to bring up when having a revisionist-type conversation with a premie! Or was the whole thing our idea perhaps? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: charanamrit From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:06:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No the whole thing was certainly not our idea. Many many times did I sip from that spoon after Arti - fat lot of use it did me! Charanamrit is very much part of Hinduism along with Prashad. All religions have their symbols - no wonder it was dropped by the Cult of Maharajism (well in the West anyhow), seeing that it is not a religion! Dropped with the Saris huh ..... Click on here for general interest of charanamrit. But for you cooks out there hit this and have a nice cool drink after all your strenuous Pujas

Subject: Re: charanamrit From: salam To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:46:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fuck the guru, his cult and anything else in between.

Subject: Re: Bog(us) Prashad From: OTS To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:32:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One should consider himself lucky to take the Prasada, and there is no restriction of any kind in taking Prasada. Prasada is all purifying. Except for my wife and her first husband's entire Italian families, who all became sick when Prasada from Maharaji's lunch (from some time ago stored in a glass jar) was added to one of the dishes at their wedding. A public health DISASTER. What bliss . . . barking with the seals!!!!!

Subject: And of course there was this young lady From: Jethro To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whi ate some of the arth that rajaji walkes on, and then became very sick. Od course it was m purifyuing her!!!

Subject: and wedding cake .... From: Opie To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 06:31:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember being given a piece of the 'Wedding Cake' - gawd did we feel privileged! On reflection I sincerely hope that M did not do what is common in India with respect to Prasad and Guru's and that is, erm, spit on it so that devotees could share the bodily fluids of their idol. Yeeuch! Where is the mouthwash!? :) Op

Subject: was charanamrit from old man rawat's feet [nt] From: but the primo shit To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:09:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why I love Cynthia From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:55:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not just because she's a survivor and and a true 'great soul' but also because of her wonderful posts like this which appeared sometime ago on Life's Grate Hate Club forum: DECA was Maharaji's major big tricks. The trick was that he wanted an airplane so much that he came up with a scheme to collect a lot of premies, put them in one place, and make the project so secret he was only known as ''The Client.'' That secrecy made everyone there feel very special and privileged. (I was one who inforced that confidentiality rule). The only exception was after hours when no outsiders (real world people) might be there, and then we'd only whisper his name in small circles. When I first got to Miami in May, 1979 I would say that we were no more than 100 at most working in a small warehouse in Hialeah. That's when I knew who everyone was by name. It was a small group of premies doing the initial work: prototypes and mock-ups in the warehouse part, business and financial stuff and whatever else needed to be done at his request, in the tiny office. In May, 1979 Maharaji was at Riegate, the England residence. I was in the office doing secretarial work and it was my job to answer the phones, so I spoke to him on the phone every day, sometimes several times per day. I was taught how to answer the phone. I always said 'Pranam Maharaji,' and he'd tell me who he wanted--usually Guy Rollins or Jim Hession. But you never put the Lord on hold. Never push that hold button--literally! After a few weeks of that premies told me ''You wouldn't believe what your eyes looked like, Cindy.'' (They were glazed over in a cultist trance-state of bliss). I floated everywhere I went. I floated above my exhaustion, too. It's nerve wracking to be around the Living Lord every single day. But I was not an X-rated PAM. I have never considered myself a PAM. Maharaji's big trick to gather as many premies in one place and get free slave labor was successful for him because he made himself present there, giving darshan every single, sometimes several times per day. He received adoration every day. In doing that he held the premies in a total state of obedience, never wanting to leave. Premies at Deca, including me, were in an advanced state of a cultist trance which we called bliss. Once he returned from England he visited that small Hialeah warehouse every day. He was barely off the plane from UK when he came speeding into that garage bay. I'd get an ETA from his personal security, tell the warehouse security guys and they'd wait at the garage door to open it for him to enter in whatever vehicle he happened to be driving that day. There was no electric garage door--they pulled it open with ropes and he sped into that small bay without regard to anyone's safety. No one stood in that garage when they knew he was coming or you'd get hit head-on. I remember one day Jim Hession was standing at the end of the garage at the opening to the warehouse and Maharaji stopped on a dime, very close to Jim. Jim turned red (as he always did) and Maharaji laughed--everyone who was there laughed, too. It was so sick. Shortly after his return Maharaji's big Deca trick became even more grandiose. He gave us satsang in the little warehouse. He told us that we needed to obey him without question and to follow his instructions implicitly because the project was going from working on prototypes to actual work to be done to rebuild that huge old hunk of a B707 that needed much more work than reconfiguring the inside to be an executive, private jet. The project was taking off in a huge way and he wanted it done his way, the correct way. There was a lot of discussion where this expansion would take place, the expense of finding a large workplace. Then the Complex was found and leased, as well as a hangar at the Miami airport. That's when so many more premies were called down to Miami. It was a huge warehouse and within 2 to 3 weeks, one whole side was converted into quite plush offices by the carpenters, painters and rug layers--this for the office workers. On our side, where the design room was, not much needed to be done. There was a suite of offices for M right off of the design room that was also renovated. No one was allowed in there except for M's personal staff, family, the project directors, and me and perhaps one other premie, because I cleaned it up after he left. By then a lot of the secret was out. Community premies may not have known exactly what was going on there, but they certainly knew he was giving daily darshan. They craved to be there. We who were there would look blissfully at each new Deca premie/employee with a knowing bliss in our eyes because we knew that they were in for some heavy darshan experiences. I didn't like all the new premies coming in and getting a piece of my darshan. It was a royal mindf**k, but that's how I felt. Eventually, I lost count of all the people at the Complex and didn't know everyone by name. Although I did know faces. I didn't care though. Even though I was off the phones, the design room is one place he spent a lot of time, up close and personal. I remember that late summer and fall trailer truck loads of goomraji's cars were driven from Malibu to the complex. M literally made the Deca Complex into his playground. One Foundation had a practice studio on the second floor--off limits except to authorized personnel. That rule applied to the garage area where his Maseratis and Mercedes stretch limos, and many other of his cars were. On the office side a large satsang room was built with a semi-circle dais for his chair. That's where he held the instructors' training and meetings. I knew that some premies were splitting up their marriages to come down to the 'Project.' I blissfully floated through that too. Some packed up and brought their entire families down there. I do know there were separations and divorces with children involved. To not accept an invitation to go to Deca was considered ''unsurrendered,'' or ''not devoted enough.'' Pity the premie who was told that! I talk about Deca a lot because I know what it did to so many premies. I feel somewhat but not totally, unresolved about what it did to me, mentally, emotionally, and physically. What I and other Deca premies considered to the highest privilege on earth: to serving the living lord in his presence, turned out to be one of the most damaging events in the cult's history in the west. Jim Jones style of isolation and deprivation. I wonder about the premies I was close to there. I wonder how they are and how their lives turned out. I wonder why they don't talk about their experiences here. Perhaps it's fear, perhaps it's just wanting to forget how awful the conditions were and how stuck we all were in obedience to whom we considered the living lord. It's part of my life I can't take back. I lived in an advanced trance-state. I lost so much of myself slaving for him. And did he ever thank me or anyone else? Absolutely not. I don't think he knows what he did to the premies down there, in isolation, day after day. Maharaj has a lot to learn about gratitude.

Subject: Re: Why I love Cynthia From: bill To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 23:56:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was there with Cynthia from Nov 79. Before that, she was in Hartford Ct and sang in the premie band. She was great. Really. She emerged from horrific child abuse and having a lord of the universe turn out to be fake can only have added a great burden to the abuse issue in her life. The last thing she needed was to be shattered around such a deep level of trust that she was finally able to again give to a father, the divine father of creation. If you needed another rawat related abuse to add to the mix, Scott Ritter, who you may recall during this last year was put in the role of handleing rawats internet strategy, deeply wounded her. Details would anger you. She has a good family and I hope she realizes that only she can get a grip on her fragmenting voices. She will really just have to knuckle down and start sending the voices one by one to permanent rest. Or pull them out only on Sunday. Or evolve them into great funny interesting POSITIVE folks of good cheer who say, OH WELL ! about the past, and forgive everyone who did her wrong and say that she is worthy of love and for her to show herself and others that she can rise above cruelty and shine with goodness, kindness, and love of others. and herself. RISE AND SHINE CYNTHIA !

Subject: Be strong as you are, Cynthia From: Richard To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:23:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I want to add my voice to the back-up singers that are here to accompany you. I admire you, respect you and wish the very best. Love, Richard, Postie, Dickie Pwickie, Brother Hal N. Back and Mahatma Coat

Subject: I admire Cynthia From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:24:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really do. I really admire the way she tells the truth and gets rightously angry about the injustice and deceit that Maharaji engaged in, and she does it from the standpoint of the effects it had on real people. Her concern isn't so much that Maharaji is a fraudulent spiritual leader, but that he used people to get what he wanted and never gave a crap about them as individuals. I admire her values, and I admire that she explains them with such conviction. So, Cynthia, if you are reading this, I just wanted to say thanks a lot from me, and I hope you are doing okay.

Subject: Yes, a beautiful, loving, unique person From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:42:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And that post of Cynthia's on Life's Great got her emotionally slam dunked by the premie web master there. He chose his words carefully and knew how to drive them like stakes into her very being. He used confidential, personal information about Cynthia to try and discredit this most damning post concerning what really happened and what M is really like. She was 'in the loop' to know these truths about Maharaji and is as crediable as Michael Dettmers, Donner, MacGregor and others. Although she does not consider herself a PAM you can better believe she was. I used to have respect for premies. Hell, I remember idolizing them before I got knowledge. I used to idolized initiators, instructors. What great realized souls they were. Oh so dedicated to knowledge and what it stood for. They must be special to be elevated to the level they were. To have every answer to each and every question about what practicing knowledge meant, required and what it was. Who Maharaji was. The Perfect Master because he shows perfection. And the premies who had knowledge so much longer than I had, they must of been so close, so very close to realizing it. What a crock of shit and how embarrassing that I ever thought/believed/experienced that. I have never seen anything quite like it. Practicing knowledge and following Maharaji has turned what would otherwise be loving, sensitive, intelligent and sincere people into narcistic, amoral, unethical and selfish humans. Practicing knowledge imbeds, like a tumor into their brain, the inability to think straight. The only real thing is my master and this knowledge. Family, children, humanity, my self worth is all second fiddle to this ultimate truth. I can understand this veiwpoint. At least I could at one time. However, any premie who posts here and those on LG have surely read EPO as well as other sites. Direct, undoctored testimony as well as a paper trail really should leave no doubt as to the real character and intentions of Maharaji. I must say I have no patience nor regard to those premies who continue to post here under the guise of well, we, on this forum have it all wrong. We're a bunch of lying, hateful people who never really meditated, dedicated or understood Maharaji in the first place. Those individuals are not worthy to be the dung on my shoe and frankly, they deserve everything they reap in their validation of Maharaji. I'm just sorry for the innocent by-standers that they harm. The mothers, fathers, siblings, children, spouses that are caught in this realm of unreality by loving a premie. Those are the real victims. And Cynthia, although I know you are probably not reading this, my hat's off to you. For the love you so freely gave here through your gentle, kind and informative posts. I'm so very disgusted that a post by the likes of some Maharaji premie hurt you. But look at what you are dealing with. He's only holding onto the dregs of what once was. All the talent and good has left his cult. The Master is at the bottom of the barrel. Hasn't he hinted at retiring? There is a reason for that. M is not so stupid to be unable to see that his Elan Vital, his cult is dying. And like Gerry and so many others here, I love you too Tonette

Subject: Honest to a fault - get well, Cynthia [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 22:55:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Cynthia, this is for you. From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:35:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My cousin sent this to me and I thought of Cyntia and all of you. Cynthia, as the people here said, you are honest as this Mae, and as sweet as her Ice cream. Thanks again for your posts.Love you. I have a new delightful friend, I am most in awe of her. When we first met I was impressed, By her bizarre behavior. That day I had a date with friends, We met to have some lunch. Mae had come along with them, All in all ... a pleasant bunch. When the menus were presented, We ordered salads, sandwiches, and soups. Except for Mae who circumvent And said, Ice Cream, please: two scoops. I was not sure my ears heard right. And the others were aghast. Along with heated apple pie, Mae added, completely unabashed. We tried to act quite nonchalant, As if people did this all the time. But when our orders were brought out, I did not enjoy mine. I could not take my eyes off Mae, As her pie ALA-mode went down. The other ladies sowed dismay, They ate their lunches silently, and frowned. Well, the next time I went out to eat, I called and invited Mae. My lunch contained white tuna meat, She ordered a parfait. I smiled when her dish I viewed, And she asked if she amused me. I answered, Yes, you do, But also you confuse me. How come you order rich desserts, When I feel I must be sensible? She laughed and said, with wanton mirth, I am tasting all that's possible. I try to eat the food I need, And do the things I should. But life's so short, my friend, indeed, I hate missing out on something good. This year I realized how old I was, She grinned, I've not been this old before. So, before I die, I've got to try, Those things for years I had ignored. I've not smelled all the flowers yet, There're too many books I have not read. There're more fudge sundaes to wolf down, And kites to be flown overhead. There are many malls I have not shopped, I've not laughed at all the jokes. I've missed a lot of Broadway Hits, And potato chips and cokes. I want to wade again in water, And feel ocean spray upon my face. Sit in a country church once more, And thank God for It's grace. I want peanut butter every day, Spread on my morning toast. I want UN-timed long-distance calls, To the folks I love the most. I've not cried at all the movies yet, Nor walked in the morning rain. I need to feel wind in my hair, I want to fall in love again. So, if I choose to have dessert, Instead of having dinner. Then should I die before night fall, I'd say I died a winner. Because I missed out on nothing, I filled my heart's desire. I had that final chocolate mousse, Before my life expired. With that, I called the waitress over, I've changed my mind, it seems, I said, I want what she is having, Only add some more whipped-cream! Be mindful that happiness is not based on possessions, power, or prestige, but on relationships with people you love and respect. Money talks. Chocolate sings.

Subject: Rushdie on Religion - good read/semi-OT? From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:06:26 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: From the Guardian. If you can stomach the first paragraph.. www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4370611,00.html

Subject: Re: Rushdie on Religion - good read/semi-OT? From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:50:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: Of course there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992, when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque, the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, which they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some Muslims were ready to give it to them. Is this accurate? Do Hindu extremists take this belligerent position with any religions other than Islam? I can't think of any, though there's that long standing Tamil controversy. Is Rushdie entirely accurate about the cause of the original conflict? Is it just a matter of peaceful Moslems sitting around minding their own business while Hindu extremists are heating up the fires of discontent? 1. He seems a little 'soft' on Islam's contribution, but perhaps that's just because he feels a bit closer to the Hindu side of things. 2. I'm not sure it's valid to brand all religion as the 'poison,' when it's actually only fanatical religion that's responsible. 3. It is at least possible that it's not religion at all, that is the central problem. There are certainly other forms of evil, including so-called 'secular religions' like Marxism and National Socialism. These seem to escape criticism in his particular model of the problem (understandable when you consider his history). 4. Maybe this is just a complex problem involving a complex solution, rather than a simplistic solution that just labels 'religion' as the problem. 5. The very notion of secularism, as a realm of life and responsibility and authority separate from religion, is distinctly a Christian concept, deriving explicitly from the advice: 'Render unto Caesar..., etc.' 6. As long as humans have the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought we will have 'religion' in some form or other. At least, until the abstract objects for which the symbols stand become more real than the symbols themselves. --Scott

Subject: Point-by-point... From: Nigel To: Scott T. Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:07:12 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: [Rushdie] Of course there are political explanations. Ever since December 1992, when a VHP mob demolished a 400-year-old Muslim mosque, the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, which they claim was built on the sacred birthplace of the god Ram, Hindu fanatics have been looking for this fight. The pity of it is that some Muslims were ready to give it to them. [Scott] Is this accurate? Do Hindu extremists take this belligerent position with any religions other than Islam? I can't think of any, though there's that long standing Tamil controversy. Is Rushdie entirely accurate about the cause of the original conflict? Is it just a matter of peaceful Moslems sitting around minding their own business while Hindu extremists are heating up the fires of discontent? [Me] Is which bit accurate? A VHP mob certainly demolished that mosque and there has never been any shortage of (peace-loving, cow-worshipping) Hindu fanatics ready to get uppity at the Islamites over the years, and vice versa - and that's just from watching the news. There has certainly been some nasty stuff in the last couple of years between Christian and Hindus - doing unto each other what they would not like to have done unto themselves. And I don't see Rushdie implying Moslems have been sitting around minding their own business in the paragraph cited. [Scott] 1. He seems a little 'soft' on Islam's contribution, but perhaps that's just because he feels a bit closer to the Hindu side of things. [Me] I don't get that impression - nor can I think of a reason why Rushdie would take that stance (since his own roots are Moslem rather than Hindu). From the whole article I would say his contempt was apportioned fairly. [Scott] 2. I'm not sure it's valid to brand all religion as the 'poison,' when it's actually only fanatical religion that's responsible. [Me] It depends on how you apply the metaphor, I guess. I think 'poison' is a pretty good word to describe what, as I see it, all religions do to one's rational mind. [Scott] 3. It is at least possible that it's not religion at all, that is the central problem. There are certainly other forms of evil, including so-called 'secular religions' like Marxism and National Socialism. These seem to escape criticism in his particular model of the problem (understandable when you consider his history). [Me] What have Marxism or National Socialism got to do with India's problems? If little or nothing, then why should Rushdie criticise them in this context? The two belief systems you cite are political philosophies (I assume you would agree). If you broaden the meaning of 'religion' to include all such philosophies, then the word becomes effectively meaningless. [Scott] 4. Maybe this is just a complex problem involving a complex solution, rather than a simplistic solution that just labels 'religion' as the problem. [Me] I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. [Scott] 5. The very notion of secularism, as a realm of life and responsibility and authority separate from religion, is distinctly a Christian concept, deriving explicitly from the advice: 'Render unto Caesar..., etc.' [Me] Relevance? [Scott] 6. As long as humans have the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought we will have 'religion' in some form or other. At least, until the abstract objects for which the symbols stand become more real than the symbols themselves. [Me] Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language. Why should that make religion inevitable? I have no compulsion to believe in anything unsubstantiable. (And I am not sure what you mean by an 'abstract object', or how it could become more real than the symbols themselves.) I don't know what your definition of religion is, Scott, but for me, whatever it's flavour, religion does tend to embrace certain universals: - A requirement to accept on trust premises for which there is no evidence. - A degree of magical / theistic thinking that is necessary to accept those premises. - A tendency for the believer to assume a moral superiority over non-believers, or those of other faiths. - A dangerous, sometimes reckless downgrading of ordinary ('wordly') human life and associated pleasures, in favour of to some imaginary ('spiritual') kingdom / path. All poison in my book, as you probably know...;)

Subject: Re: Point-by-point..., and staying upright. From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:03:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is which bit accurate? There is at least an implied historical sequence of causation, indicating that that the Hindus were the aggressors in the Feud... or isn't this obvious? Perhaps I should be explicit. No one believes this all started with Ayodhya, not even you. And it's sort of axiomatic that Islam was the original aggressor. don't get that impression - nor can I think of a reason why Rushdie would take that stance (since his own roots are Moslem rather than Hindu). From the whole article I would say his contempt was apportioned fairly. I'm suggesting that he may be leaning over backward to be 'fair' given the fact that everyone knows his history with the Islamists. Don't you think so? (Not that it's terribly important. I'm just making an observation.) It depends on how you apply the metaphor, I guess. I think 'poison' is a pretty good word to describe what, as I see it, all religions do to one's rational mind. I assume you include secular religions in that indictment? Karl Mannheim is probably the most insightful philosopher on precisely how this works, proposing that the only real cure is the 'wandering intellectual' and that even this cure is only marginally effective in the short run. I don't see religious views as particularly evil... especially since they often motivate people to selflessly humanitarian acts that they'd otherwise not undertake through naked self interest, as well as generalized work that they'd otherwise be inclined to shirk (like voting). I'm just not familiar with this pristine state of motivational perfection that you seem to believe would emerge in the wake of God-oriented religion. Seriously, I think it's a pipe dream. What have Marxism or National Socialism got to do with India's problems? Well for one thing it appears to me that both Rushdie's general indictment (not just this particular article) as well as your reason for admiring he and Dawkins, stems from the general proposition that belief in a transcendent spiritual being, intelligence, principle... is especially evil, ignoring the fact that religion can and should be more broadly defined. Secondly, I can't believe you don't think Marxism plays a role in Indian politics. I hope you're not serious. I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. Well, I don't understand why you're focusing on a few outstanding instances where the Reformation isn't quite over, as though that proves religion evil everywhere... the 'root cause' as you call it. Besides which, the root cause of the Irish conflict could well be considered nationalism mixed with class conflict rather than religion. After all, the Reformation *is* over with practically everywhere else. I would even go so far as to say secularism may be the cure you're looking for, rather than the cause of the problem. Couple it with the Madisonian notion of 'cross-cutting alliances' that undermine class and nationalistic factions and you have a fairly effective way to keep religion as a secondary influence in society... a way to mitigate the bad without quite throwing away the good. Relevance [of secularism]? Thanks for the entertainment, Nige. All I can say is that I sometimes unintentionally say silly/funny things too. In that spirit I think I'll just go on to the next point, in the hope that you'll reciprocate someday when required. :-) Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language. I think that's fair, with the caveat that we are sometimes directly aware of the abstractions themselves, language having performed its function effectively. I don't think this happens very often though. Why should that make religion inevitable? I'm not sure it does. I think it does, though. It's that inherent gap between the actual and the representation that's problematic. I think this is most easily seen in the way we represent complex problems, as though they always have a 'root cause' that's amenable to some Gordian knot strategy. I think this is the 'root cause' of why we have problems that have been around for centuries, essentially without having been affected at all by any of these simple diagnoses or cures. - A requirement to accept on trust premises for which there is no evidence. I submit that this is just an apparently unavoidable aspect of the human condition, that at best we can hope to mitigate. It's certainly not a unique characteristic of belief in God. - A degree of magical / theistic thinking that is necessary to accept those premises. Again, endemic in the human condition... and not only not always problematic, but sometimes beneficial. Charisma (which essentially derives from magical qualities of a leader or group that allow them to dispense with traditional concerns or overcome logical impasse) is an 'escape hatch' according to Weber. You know about this, I'm sure. - A tendency for the believer to assume a moral superiority over non-believers, or those of other faiths. Well, you said it yourself... a 'tendency' is just that. Humans have a tendency to assume moral superiority in general, don't they? Do you think Dawkins believes he's morally equivalent to the Pope? (He might or might not *say* this, but does he really believe it?) - A dangerous, sometimes reckless downgrading of ordinary ('wordly') human life and associated pleasures, in favour of to some imaginary ('spiritual') kingdom / path. I think you may find a 'Freudian' slip in there, though you might have deliberately intended a play on worlds. But to address the concern: again as Weber pointed out this specific proclivity, as distinctly differentiated from the analogous belief in an 'earthly kingdom or paradise,' actually creates a powerful motivation, even a compulsion, for rationality. But I'm sure you're aware of this. I just don't agree that religion is always and only poisonous, nor do I think there's a comprehensive alternative. Of course, you know that I think the greatest recent contribution to philosophy comes from American Pragmatism, and I think these various hermeneutic philosophies are potentially far more damaging than any religion we know of, with the possible exception of radical Islam. We may even agree about that. As for the Irish Troubles, I think you can almost just sit down and wait out the final stages of the Reformation. By the way, I may be coming to the UK for vacation this summer... to do a bike tour and vegetarian tuck in, in Wales. If you and Dave are around, as well as some other UK exes that I've managed to not terminally offend, perhaps we can get together. (I think it's cheaper to fly into and out of London than Cardiff.) Not sure whether I'll bring my laydown bike, or an upright. The upright is more convenient, but the laydown is more comfortable and fun. --Scott

Subject: Right On/Language From: Joe To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't find it simplistic to identify religion as a root cause (or one of the primary causes) of this and many similar sectarian conflicts. In Northern Ireland, for example, the warring parties would be virtually unable to decide who their enemies were, were it not for their religious stance. The exact same thing could be said about the former Yugoslavia. Other than religion Catholic/Orthodox/Moslem, those people who killed each other in the thousands could not be distinguished one from the other. In regard to Northern Ireland, I have always thought that if religion weren't such a division, the working class in Northern Ireland, Catholic and Protestant, would have a lot more in common, (common economic repression) than they have to divide them. The religion not only creates a reason for conflict, it keeps people who ought to be united in a common struggle divided. I think especially in the USA, race has been used for similar divisions. Doesn't ' the capacity to create symbols that stand for abstract objects of thought' more-or-less equal 'language'? - or at least figurative / imaginative language This is interesting. I have been reading Chomsky's theories of language and linguistics lately, and it appears that actually we are hard-wired for 'language' which hinges around 'generative grammar' based on the idea of Humboldt's 'infinite use of finite means.' The study of language has supported the idea of generative grammar. A child knows vastly more than experience has provided, even for simple words, and beyond that the conclusion is even more dramatic. Language acquisition seems to be something that happens to a child, not what a child does. So, rather than assigning words to abstract symbols, or even "concrete" symbols, it seems that language generates from inside of us, hard-wired, like the growth of organs generally. And while the environment matters, the general course of development and the basic features of language that emerges are predetermined by the initial state, which is a common human possession. One experiment I found interesting is to ask why these two sentences, which are almost identical in structure, are so different: 1. Jack is easy to please. 2. Jack is eager to please. The theory is that this comes from the generative grammer, a hard-wired, innate, evolved, internal structure, not something that comes from the outside, because there would appear to be no external reason for the vast difference.

Subject: And Dawkins from the same paper, same day.. From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:12:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Science department of Emmanuel College, Gateshead (near Newcastle) has apparently been taken over by Creationsists), downgrading evolution to 'only a theory' status, to be taught to students alongside the (superior) Biblical account of our origins. Richard Dawkins is not best pleased. Well said, RD. www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371166,00.html

Subject: Re: And Dawkins from the same paper, same day.. From: bill To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 00:07:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice to see you post Nigel, I was thinking recently that I missed reading you.

Subject: Here's another one in Time From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:13:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Darwinian Struggle Is there a place in evolutionary theory for the hand of God? Maybe in Ohio. Hearings start this month BY ROBERT WRIGHT [The author of The Moral Animal -- Jim] Sunday, Mar. 03, 2002 Poor Charles Darwin. He was a kind, gentle soul--decent to a fault, some have said--yet he keeps getting cast as the Antichrist. The latest equation of Darwinism with godlessness comes in Ohio, where some members of the state school board want to downgrade the theory of natural selection in the biology curriculum guidelines. If their effort succeeds, Darwin's theory would have to share the blackboard with a school of thought called 'intelligent design theory.' Boosters of intelligent design--ID, for short--hope this triumph would be the first step toward restoring a spiritual dimension to our understanding of our creation. Critics of ID, which has been billed in the press as new and sophisticated, say it's just creationism in disguise. If so, it's a good disguise. Creationists believe that God made current life-forms from scratch. The ID movement takes no position on how life got here, and many adherents believe in evolution. Some even grant a role to the evolutionary engine posited by Darwin: natural selection. They just deny that natural selection alone could have driven life all the way from pond scum to us. Why doubt natural selection? Here is where the ID movement says basically what creationists have been saying all along: Some living forms are too intricately functional to have been produced by the accretion of randomly generated novelty. Sure, you can imagine giraffes' necks having once been half their current length and slowly growing by natural selection. But what about giraffes' eyes? What good--as creationists have long asked--is half an eye? Darwin anticipated such doubts, and admitted in The Origin of Species that the eye at first seems to imply an intelligent designer. But then he traced a scenario for the step-by-step evolution of a mere 'nerve sensitive to light' into a 'living optical instrument.' If the ID movement is just resurrecting old doubts, how has it managed to get hailed as new and improved? Mainly by putting old doubts in new bottles. Michael Behe, a biochemist at Lehigh University, invented the label 'irreducibly complex' for structures that could not have arisen incrementally. And rather than dwell on the eyeball, he applies the term to such microscopic entities as the human blood-clotting mechanism. In his book Darwin's Black Box, Behe says this mechanism, involving more than a dozen proteins, could hardly have emerged full-blown in a single mutation. Yet it couldn't have been built one protein at a time, he says, because without any one protein it would be useless. Behe's claim set Kenneth Miller, a Brown University biologist who is both a Darwinian and a Christian, to thinking. In his book Finding Darwin's God, he argues that if you look at blood clotting in various species you can see how the human version could have evolved one step at a time. If Miller is right, that doesn't mean the ID movement is worthless. It means ID adherents have raised productive doubts--and in science, being productively wrong is nearly as valuable as being right. But unfortunately for Ohio's curriculum reformers, their argument for putting ID in schoolbooks isn't that it generates productive doubts. Rather, they're billing it as a theory in its own right. And here the ID movement's political past may sabotage its political future. One key to the movement's success has been the decision to take no position on how species originated. This made ID a tent big enough to hold everything from old-fashioned creationists to New Agers who believe a 'vital force' drives evolution. But one result is that ID simply isn't what its Ohio supporters and various journalists have called it--an 'alternative' to Darwinism. Darwinism offers an explanation of how we got here. Any 'theory' that offers no such explanation can't compete--much less win. It isn't even clear that ID can outdo Darwinism in the realm of spiritual consolation. Some of ID's leading figures push God way back in evolutionary time. The philosopher and Baylor University professor William Dembski argues in mathematical language that natural selection, to create life as we know it, must have received some kind of external input. But he allows that this input could be something quite abstract, embedded in the early context of evolution--perhaps in 'boundary conditions' that 'constrain' genetic mutation. But if early, abstract and arguably divine input is what you're after, plain old Darwinism leaves room for that. No one knows how DNA began to replicate or how the universe got built in such a way that replication was possible. It's not crazy to think that such initial conditions were set by some intelligence for an overarching purpose that is still unfolding. After all, look at the spiritually rich products of evolution so far: consciousness, love, the human conscience, morally consequential choice. [Yes, and deceit, cruelty, etc. etc. I'm surprised Wright, who should know better, would throw the Creationists a bone like this] ID adherents may be right to say that some sort of divinity got the evolutionary ball rolling, and that principles designed by that divinity keep it rolling. But they're wrong to think they have to attack poor Charles Darwin in order to make this claim.

Subject: Wright's a creationist From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:41:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last I heard, anyway. Isn't that book he wrote, Non-Zero all about how the universe is heading toward some divine purpose, as if somebody planned it this way? Critics of the book, including Michael Shermer, seem to have walked away from it with that impression.

Subject: Tempest in a teacup? From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 07:43:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't the whole issue be moot if one simply defines 'God' as being the sum of all that is, was, and will be? You know, the totality and the 'omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent' deal? When God is discussed as a subset, a 'divinity', as a sort of cosmic CEO, then no wonder people get sceptical or huffy. To judge by human affairs he's made quite a mess ( '. . . if God existed how could he allow to exist so much misery, mayhem etc., etc.') Or, conversely, how could the watch exist but for the mind and hand of the watchmaker. Human limitation and projection has made of God an inspired or bumbling tinkerer (or a 'jealous God' or a 'heavenly Father' or a 'Great Spirit' or you name it . . . projections, probably from fear, the God humans make). Isn't the whole God vs. Evolution vs. Creationism vs. Atheism primarily, then, a problem of definitions and semantics in an area where there are no objective proofs? Perhaps we are left only with thought experiments. It seems to me that within totality and within the unfolding structures of creation there is an inherent organizing 'intelligence', immanent, as potentialities, somewhat like how within everyday sunlight there is the spectrum otherwise unseen but for a prism of some sort. Or, as evolutionary potentialities, this energetic intelligence riffs along improvising on various fundamental mathematical principles, as a jazz musician improvises on thousands of tune forms, chord changes, 'charts', pushing into creative but logical pathways of least resistance as conditions change, mutating and blossoming into the impossibly complex fecundity of nature's themes and variations: Nature as a bebopping hipster trying this, trying that, we've got all the time in the world. Cosmic Coltrane. It coughed up us. Fancy that. One can ask, do mathematics 'exist'? Do crystals and birds, quasars and photons 'know' this science beyond their effortless expression of it? Who discovers mathematics other than humans, through the prism of our minds, so far as we know? But if mathematics or natural scientific laws are there to be discovered, and are demonstrably verified by experience, then they are immanent, yes? Therefore, created? It is an organising intelligence operating upon, or expressing through, matter inexorably, as an inherent irreducible property of the fundamental stuff of creation, whether that is matter or energy, particle or wave. Is it conscious of itself as intelligence? Why not? The sum of all, as totality, would by definition embrace, contain and express all consciousness. Is it 'Love'? Again, why not? The sum of all, as totality, would by definition embrace, contain and express love too, no? The stupendous unfathomable magnitude of It All engenders the awe and natural inclination to call it 'divine' or holy and so on. But our fearful, threatened and divisive human natures impel us to bloody war over our definitions of what is divine. So intelligent! So conscious! This is the sad joke of human history. A rich experience, a dance, a dream, a drama. Adrift. Time for reveille. Now, where are my oars? Carl

Subject: Hi Carl ... From: Anna (Stonor) To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 22:28:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice to see you here. I'd like to introduce you to my good friend G, who no longer posts at this forum. You seem to have a lot of common interests, and there are many more threads on this topic below the link I've posted. All the best to you, Anna One of many www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=8233.6653396780639

Subject: What's your point, Stonor? From: Jim To: Anna (Stonor) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 23:38:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you pushing Creationism now, Stonor? Why did you do this other than to get my goat? By the way, have you ever explained to yourself why, when you were never a premie and have no actual interest here, you can't stay away? Are you just lonely or are you like a spiritual vampire that smells a little blood amongst the exes?

Subject: No, that doesn't quite work From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:18:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't the whole issue be moot if one simply defines 'God' as being the sum of all that is, was, and will be? You know, the totality and the 'omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent' deal? Carl, I don't think that's gonna work. It's hardly enough for those who actually believe in an intelligent, powerful and even loving force out there and it's way too much for those who think there's nothing of the sort. Omnipresent, sure, but the other two? I don't thiiiiiiink so.

Subject: How about this From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:57:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, What I'm trying to get at is the notion that the organizing intelligence is inherent in the fundamental stuff of creation, is itself the evolutionary imperative. Call it God and you have beaucoup bloody or sentimental baggage. Call it Nature or the primal force, or any of the thousand names, it is still 'generating, operating, destroying'. As banal as may be this hoary old description, it in no way diminishes its practical 'truth', in my opinion. At the atomic and subatomic levels, where what matter is is perhaps a question of interpretation, the elegant forces, the mathematical intelligences, operate to sustain creation and our lives (so I believe science has determined). As various intelligences are nested within us, and as we are nested within further realms that operate with exquisite creative balance -- just as our cellular and genetic levels operate our organs and senses quite nicely without much input from our waking consciousness, and as we live within the natural world and other energy spectra we do not readily understand or see -- it just seems too apparent that the whole totality is resonating with an incalculably vast awareness, or at least a vibrational integrity. Jeez, what the hell do I mean by 'vibrational integrity'? I guess something like 'as above, so below' or 'the ocean within the drop', 'within you and without you', that sort of thing. Our own awareness of the several human realms easily available to us is but a tiny portion of that totality, but since it appears to extend 'in both directions' a long way (if not infinitely) I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that there is a conscious connnectedness to it all. It may be that at some level, from some vantage point, all matter/energy is conscious. And we humans bop around in that soup, breathe it in, fight, fuck and frolic and forget to stretch our awareness in further directions to embrace more of it. Assuming 'more' is more fun. Can I prove it? I guess not. But I enjoy the discussions. Best, C.

Subject: Have I got news for you, Carl! From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:57:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I'm trying to get at is the notion that the organizing intelligence is inherent in the fundamental stuff of creation, is itself the evolutionary imperative. Sorry, Carl, but this is exactly, fundamentally, seriously -- you name it -- untrue. Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. That's the whole point. That's what makes evolution so damn confrontational for religion. It's worse than the Headless Horseman. :) Got any questions? www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html

Subject: Does that include 'consciousness' also? From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:41:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. Would an analogy work here? If the universe creates beings as a bio-organism creates seeds and ova -- each a potential replicant of itself, with all its qualities and characteristics -- then wouldn't the originating parent have inherent within itself all the potential passed down to the progeny, and that would include consciousness, intelligence and so on? OR instead, can you get something from nothing, in other words? Or do you see all this as just so much mutation over the eons? (Thanks for the link. I am slowly checking it out, but wanted to respond first.) Carl

Subject: Tell you what, Carl From: Jim To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:58:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The short answer is no. I guess you can't get something from nothing but you can get complexity from simplicity and that's what evolution's able to do -- without even trying, of course. :) How're you find talk.origin? It's got a wealth of information, much that can directly address your musings.

Subject: Re talk.origin From: Carl To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 20:48:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is one great site, thanks again. The endless links within the links, gobs of material. I'll be spending a fair bit o' time browsing over there for a while now that it is on my favorites. But it takes me a while to digest it (and it's tiring to read so much on the monitor, my poor eyeballs, those lovely implausibly created orbs!). I used to be so annoyed at born-again christian fundamentalists and other anti-intellectual head-in-the-sand folk who would say things like "Well you know God is so magnificent-clever-whatever that he could create the universe to appear as though it were billions of years old when in fact it is only six thousand years old, as it says right here in the Bible" (or whatever their figure was). And our own dear old cult wasn't that much better. It sought to feed us a fantasy along with a discouragement to pursue 'mere' intellectual inquiry. Yeah, don't bother studying anything worldly. You'll waste your breaths and be dead soon enough anyway. It was probably M's concern that too many premie funds would be directed toward tuition and other teachers instead of toward the divine toilet. Cheers!

Subject: Gott zei dank! From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:08:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Evolution explains the development of organisms, right down to their intelligence itself, without any organizing intelligence at all. That's the whole point. That's what makes evolution so damn confrontational for religion. Not that I have so much as a clue concerning what Carl is talking about (Is that English?), and I know that the statement above is virtually the *definition* of evolutionary theory... but do you really think they've proved the case? It seems to me, for instance, that it takes quite a lot of faith to propose that something evolved from nothing... head or no head. And further on down the line I certainly don't see any totally convincing proof that life evolved from non-life. Indeed, the most coherent of these arguments, coming from the people at the Santa Fe Institute, look like they invest the obscure concept of 'complexity' with most of the characteristics of intelligence, without bothering to resolve behaviors at the macro level in terms of incentives at the micro level. And at an even more basic level I'm currently scratching my head over *The Elegant Universe* more or less convinced that the author must be making mistakes in simple math. And I just can't convince myself that anyone has the details right. I had really high hopes for that book, but can't conceive of observing another individual pass me at a constant speed 80% that of light without accelerating my eyeballs out of their sockets so far that they'd rocket into the sun. Yeah, those are just details but the details, it turns out, are *really* important. You can't observe the universe from inside a dimensionless point. I'm just getting a little impatient with all this abstract 'science.' But if you say they've proved the point, then it must be that I'm just overly picky... or my maths are even more deficient than I thought. (I will admit, however, there there just isn't very much room left for God to maneuver. And His range of options is getting more narrow all the time.) --Scott

Subject: Dr Talkington, if I may... From: Dr Reich To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:58:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: interject here...Life from Non-Life In der forties I undertook a series of experiments in vich I heated various substances to incandescence and plunged into an liquid infusion. Viola! little vesichles whch I called bions spontaneously formed vich had many of the der properties of life including ability to reproduce. Und yah, everyting vas clean und sterile. See not alvays was I such of der coconut. (I will admit, however, there there just isn't very much room left for God to maneuver. And His range of options is getting more narrow all the time.) LOL, Dr T, LOL, and agree.

Subject: Dr Frankenjamer's Kids From: Scott T. To: Dr Reich Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 17:41:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dr. Reich: I don't think these sticky molecules impressed very many objective observers as 'life from non-life,' but they were sort of reminiscent of Superman's ability to create a diamond by squeezing a lump of coal. The electromagnetic force the source of life? Interesting notion. A little creepy though. Makes you wonder what other sort of beast might be slouching his way to Bethlehem. --Scott

Subject: The School in question... From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear they are making serious progress on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.... Outrageous this is taxpayers money... www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4371165,00.html

Subject: David Holloway is a dangerous beast From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 19:37:53 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: He is parish priest of the church where all the Christian-minded Newcastle University students go (being close to the halls of residence). He preaches(to capacity crowds)on the evils of being gay. When the Church of England was voting on whether to have women priests (10 yars ago) he was quoted in the English broadsheets as saying: 'I have nothing against women - as long as they don't tell me what to do'.

Subject: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: John Macgregor To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...mercilessly in 'Midnight's Children'. The character was a child genius whose mother saw the main chance, turning him into an incarnation of God and sending him to the West to rake it in for the family. All of which now reinforces my opinion that 'Midnight's Children' is the best novel since the War. And speaking of Richard Dawkins, I wonder how many psychological analogs there are to biological realities? E.g. when Europeans went to colonise the Orient, many of the natives had very little resistance to their germs - e.g. I think Hawaii was decimated by a cold virus, wasn't it? A couple of centuries later the Orient came back to colonise us: that is, our 'native' religions are being overwhelmed by various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. Maharaji was one of the door-openers for this wave. When he came here, we had no resistance to the psychic infection of the more dangerous aspects of Eastern thought - such as that one man could embody God, and such as a generally nihilistic outlook. (Maya.) However Indians (for example) had inhaled such ideas for centuries, and to some extent may have built up an immuniy to them. They lived with them - just as we live with cold viruses - but they were not psychologically fatal to them - as they proved to be to us. Somewhere I recall one Indian saying 'We listen carefully to our gurus and praise them publicly. But then we go home and do what we want.' We wide-eyed Western innocents, however, had no such preparation. A hasty thought - but it seemed to contain some reality. Best, John

Subject: Maharaji infects the West From: Joe To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:22:25 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: And speaking of Richard Dawkins, I wonder how many psychological analogs there are to biological realities? E.g. when Europeans went to colonise the Orient, many of the natives had very little resistance to their germs - e.g. I think Hawaii was decimated by a cold virus, wasn't it? Actually, I think much of North America was decimated by smallpox and other diseases making it easy for Cortez to conquer Mexico and left lots of vacant, although cleared, land for the settlers in New England. A couple of centuries later the Orient came back to colonise us: that is, our 'native' religions are being overwhelmed by various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism. Maharaji was one of the door-openers for this wave. When he came here, we had no resistance to the psychic infection of the more dangerous aspects of Eastern thought - such as that one man could embody God, and such as a generally nihilistic outlook. (Maya.) I think when Maharaji arrived in the West, he benefitted by a whole generation of people who were questioning established morals and values. I'm not sure that the 'eastern' flavor was as important as the fact that it was just different, or seen as different. It purported to focus on happiness from inside, instead of the capitalist/Calvanist principles that materialism was important. As for not having 'defenses' to Maharaji and his cult, for some reason a certain segment of the population seems to be susceptible to cults -- to a closed belief system that seems to provide some relief from uncertainty and the uneasiness that can cause. I'm not so sure that is any less true now than it was then, but the times are much more conformist these days, so we don't see the big splash cults like Maharaji brought in, around the early 70s. Although Buddhism is fast-growing religion in the states, I'm not so sure it's having much influence on established religions, and I'm pretty certain Hinduism isn't having much influence, or at least I'm not aware of it. So, are you suggesting, as some have said before, that premies in India take Maharaji with much bigger grains of salt than premies do in the West? I have always thought this was probably the case. Have you talked to Indian premies who say such things like you quoted?

Subject: Re: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: bolly shri To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:58:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried Midnights Children and found it too cluttered with excess vebiage. I didn't stay with it long enough to get a handle on it might try again. For uplifting reading and minimum text try amaritfa fal The beggars strike excellent and draws in the essence of whats good in the major religions and may be because they have some admirable streaks in them we continue to be drawn in bolly shri

Subject: Bahkti Virus.... From: Bai Ji To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 02:27:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure infected my Heart Drive... I am currently in the process of re-formatting my neurological pathways with all the intelligence I can muster. This, I do with what regularly appears to me, to be little more than the equivalent of a Dr Seuess(sp)manual on 'Life and how to survive it for Gullible idiots' I am aware that I suffer from arrested development due to 3 decades of self doubt supported by a Perfect Master and an Infinitely Flawed Devotee Syndrome. Having said that, I will now say this, I have found consummate support from this Exit Site and the Dear individuals that have taken the time and effort to extend their genuine concern toward me, through this most diffiCult time. My love and gratitude goes out to you all Anth Ji Pat C, Chuck and Andy Ji Marji Ji (Doggie Darshan)XXX Marianne Bai SUCH!!!!!!a banana Ji CYNTHIA You Beautiful, Brave Woman you ****XX Michael Dettmers Donner Ji + Blitzen Tonette Bai Jean Michel Bob Mischler...gone but not forgotten (Now where is that Manuscript?) Faith Bai John Mac JB Lesley + Bilbo McDuck Livia Bai Brian S ********X Housemum ******** cq Stevie Ji Kelly and Hubby ****X Roger the non-gruntled Postie XXXX Dep Dog....woof x Katie Disculta Bai Harry Ji Loafie xxx Moley Nige Sir D Silvia Ji woolfie Joe Ji Jethro Ji Penny Ji GeRJy? Jerry Francesca Ji John the Latvian Lizard Lounger Ji and Jimbo Monmat Ji, Who's (does an apostrophe go there?) pursuit of the essence of Truth remains Relentless to the point of Singularity! Black Hole or Chocolate Starfish? You decide.... I Love It all. Yes I do! (Arggh, now I know I've left you out of this list, horrible people pleaser that i am, i'll now lie awake trying to remember who I have forgotten in my Cult addled brain) Mea Culpa yada yada. Not to forget Cat and David Roupell if they be one and the same, I thank you for contributing to consolidating my inherent feelings of 'Something is terribly wrong with this Picture' by responding only with evasion and Cultspeak on this Bulletin Board. As much as I may care for you as individuals, I have to say that the game is up and we have to see our mistaken Love, Obesience and Trust in M for what it IS. Misguided. Dear Exes, I have unhooked my self, through your thoughtFull postings from a belief system that had hijacked my heritage, my Life. I hope to one day recover fully and Grow the Fuck Up!!!!! Wonders shall never cease. I wish only the BEST for us All. and may Peace Love and Lentils 'Blossom and Grow' Not Rot In all of our Well Deserved Lives. Jai Sat Chit Anand Bai Bai XXXXX

Subject: Francesca, Wherefore art thou? From: What No Best Of? To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:57:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: Livia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:27:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Bai Ji, what a fabulous post and much welcome back!!! You are wonderful. Will email you v soon, and look forward very much to lots more posts from you here if you feel like writing. Glad things are getting better for you. Lots and lots of love, Livia XXX

Subject: Hi Livia XXX (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:54:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Love you Bai Ji From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:48:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That list made me smile all over. So sweet of you. I've always enjoyed your energy and intelligent words. Please continue to make our lives richer oh irreverent Bai Ji. Richard and his friend the non-gruntled Postie (LOL)

Subject: Ya Know what Richard? From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:40:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I Love you too! Even though I don't know you personally, I am projecting my ideas of who you might be onto you. Sound familiar? The difference is, you actually respond to me which enables me to have a reference to ascertain if my emotional investment in you is worthwhile. UNLIKE Mr up on a Pedastal, that has never even answered One of my innumerable letters to Him except through a secretary with some trite, inane, boring copied satsang that didn't address my Practical Question regarding the Service I was performing.It was only 30 of the Most fruitful years of my Pitiful life! What am I whinging about. I should Just leave if I dont like (Self Knowlege) AArrgggghh, one more fucking sly change of the original Real Deal that I signed up for and I'm gonna vomit! OOps Sorry, my venom was showing! Thank you for all your thoughtfull intelligent posts. You have helped me immensely here. Much Cyber Love Coming at Ya! X Bai

Subject: Re: Ya Know what Richard? From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 21:02:54 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Bai, Familiar indeed but our projections are not without merit. Neither of us require or expect unwavering devotion or gratitude of the other. Say, you're not that woman that stands at my driveway and throws rose petals under my car tires, are you? Didn't think so. I dig the way you can go from loving kindness to spitting venom to love again. No apologies required as I think it can be healthy to vent. Never doubt the intensity of Bai Ji. :) Below I noticed you mentioned Ron Prezlocki (sp?). I knew him in Denver and thought he was a real stand up guy. Glad to hear he's still cool. Also, you mentioned Homestead, FL where I travel to visit a client every year just when it gets grey and rainy in the NW. Now I'm getting more curious if our paths have crossed before. My email's above if you want to compare notes and I do the confidentiality thing. Thanks again for your kind words. Bye, Bai. Richard

Subject: Yeah that was me Richard.. From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:42:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to exhibit my gopiness somewhere, now that the object of my Devotion has Abandoned Me in my Deepest Darkest Hour and I have all these left over flowers from a lifetime of petal flinging and Mala making. Bai the way, I received the restraining order. Talk about a wet blanket...a little crazed devotional stalking never hurt anyone. Well... everyone really. Thanks for the invite Richard I shall take you up on your kind offer and send you some gory details in a few days. Love Bai X

Subject: LOL, Bai Ji!! :) [nt] From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:27:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 01:01:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Bai, I was in the gopi squad in Miami. I know a number of the gopi girls and they seem to go in two directions generally. As ex's, the ones I know but they dont post here, either are so burned by the lord issue that they cannot even look in the direction of 'god' (if you will) with any sort of feeling except rejection. Having a fraudulent stand-in like m (or any of the other spawns of the buddhist or hindu type thinking) puts them and myself, in the position of either caving in to the buddhist/hindu idea that god is not actually real, but is some sort of oneness thing that you are supposed to gradually become. There are a lot of flaws in the thinking that started these religions. The idea that you can play god because, well, one of the reasons that these guys think they can play god is, that they dont have to worry about god being pissed with them because according to thier religions, god is really an unconcious oneness. YOU can set yourself up as god (for the good of others of course) WHY? Basically, it all comes down to this line from the bhagdavad gita...which was either misquoted, or krishna was just wrong, or the guy that wrote the story made a wrong guess about life....here it is......he who IDENTIFIES with the divine merges in me..... That line spawned a horde of guys who self-employed themselves as godheads for the last few centuries. Just because they are so confused about the real nature of life here, does that mean we, as so many devotee have that have faced this same dillema over the centuries, are we now supposed to cave into the idea that NOW that we see that the master is not real, we are (naturally) now to move from devotee to enlightenment by abandoning all concepts about god and spend our years trying to do the buddhist merge idea. OR, we can take a fresh look at the god issue and look beyond the noisy extremists like the creationists and the dawkins guys, and decide by using the evidence presented by our limitations and our human nature to determine if there is a god or not, and to recognise by that evidence whether or not the one who designed the limitations we are under, is a force that cares about you the way you thought rawat did, is concious, is real, or not. Was all your love wasted? Or is there something that knows and counts and saw and says 'keep your love intact only move it to the part of life that does love and supports love, and dont dry up into bitter loss.' Too late to post more, but in my struggle to move from gopidom to SOMETHING, here on the forum I had to struggle to try to understand DNA Materialist reasonings from Dawkins and others, and also buddhist type thinking, optomistic mental evolution thinking like Mike Dettmers is presenting (with some definite valid points), and the christian ideas, and WHY all the variations of awaregod/non-aware god religions that abound all over the planet..... Finally, I started to recognise that our human nature and our limitations (such as: no one can go from success to success to success in life) spoke VOLUMES about the nature of reality here. It is not a very popular topic, but I think it is completely the only unarguable proof about the nature of god and reality here. The only way I know out of the gopi mess for me was to be able to touch really solid ground in my search for a new grounding after losing my house down to the deeply burned foundation of my heart. I say I have been there done that, and am still learning it, but the solid ground has been found, and..... I dont know how this comes across, but this forum presents a withering crossfire to any proclamations of 'knowing' about reality. I am glad they do that, as it has helped me in my search for solid ground. But I am willing today to say, in front of this fierce bow armed crowd, that reality is described by our limitations, and by our human nature. And the nature of god is also described there.

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:52:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always enjoyed your intelligent posts bill. Thanks for taking the lengthy time to respond to me the way you did. Right now the dust is still swirling and my head and emotions are still quite mixed up. I have the feeling that I am in that phase that Cynthia spoke about called 'Floating' due to the painfull nature of this exiting process. Steve Hassan wrote about it in the book 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' which I found most illuminating and beneficial. Whilst I know that I can never return to m after what I now know, Nor do I want to, certain days can be diffiCult to get through. My tendency can be to try and avoid the minute by minute battle as it all can become overwhelming. I am just sitting with it and trusting that what you all say here is true and that I shall eventually shift fully from this space to a less fearfull one. Right now bill, I don't know what I believe re god my place in the cosmology etc. All I do know is that i am here. I have no proof of the veracity of anything else , nor do i have the strength or inclination to go about the business of replacing all my 'old' Knowing with a bunch of new concepts.....just yet anyway. When I was very young, I read the Mahabharata/Bhagavad Gita and was immediately drawn to the concepts therein. Mind you I was completely set up having lost my father at a young age also. Then along He came with 'more powers than ever before' it was all so PERFECT. He was here for me, I was here for Him, what else was there to do but SURRENDER COMPLETELY? My Divine Life has now been revealed to be a Nightmare. It's too early yet to know anything, that's ok too. It'll all go where it needs to eventually, not that i even know that to be true either. So here i sit, stripped of the cosmic Turtle that was holding me up and free floating in the void. Que Sera Sera I've put a copy of Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker on layby. Though right now reading and absorption are still quite problematic due to Foggy Brain and short attention span. This is just a symptom of depression i know and this too shall pass, it's just frustrating riding through it. You know what I am thinking? that if God exists, I would like some definite benevolence on his half. The tangible kind not the works in mysterious ways kind. Those mysterious ways, I can rightly ascribe to coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature, the universe doing it's thing. Magical thinking is now out. So a nice big Monty Python Foot would do nicely thank you, maybe placed just to the left of me to avoid a nasty mess. Untill then, I am going to examine things a tad more closely as I obviously had a defective Bullshit Detector issued. Arghh, I don't think im as angry as I sound, wait a minute, maybe I am and what's wrong with that anyway? I am sick of the NICE veneer that had to be portrayed all these years in order to be viewed as a sane 'Together' premie. Even whilst enduring the most atrocious SHIT. We Wouldn't want to speak our mind and be quietly placed on the Bongo List now would we? AAaaa.. Fuck it! What EVER. I'm not dead yet, just wait till I finish sewing my Superhero outfit, then i'll show ya who's a victim!!! Only Serious. I lived in Miami for a while with Michael and Sally Burgoon out at Homestead. Cooked for Staff Support at the Res, Flowers etc Did you know Gypsy Przewlocki (nee Rogers) and Ron Przewlocki, M's personal security. They live in Arizona now, people I love a lot. Anyway, ta bill, thanks for your insights. Take Care X Bai

Subject: Re: Ya Know what From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:26:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi XBai, I will help you speed read 'the blind watchmaker'. It talks about some evidence we have of the way things evolved. But the author is so enthused about his hopes for what the evidence MIGHT imply, that he slants the book so that you will think that it is the almost virtually proven picture of reality. When it is just him taking some facts and then guessing too much. There you have it. I dont remember the freinds you mentioned. Their faces I would no doubt recognise, My aspirant program was 3 months of satsang with only Rehka Loomba Dasi speaking to me alone. You can imagine !! Followed by Millenium and the rest. You have a good wit, even in your anguish, besides the BIG FOOT, what form of benevolence would qualify for 'Tangible' ? You said: 'The tangible kind not the works in mysterious ways kind. Those mysterious ways, I can rightly ascribe to coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature, the universe doing it's thing' Is it too bold to ask you....hmmm.....maybe you are wrong? Hope this is not too way out from left field, but in my digging through the whole mess, without taking the time to tell you all the reasons why I have come to this, well, I am just going to try to wing it somehow right now skipping stuff I would say to others on the forum. Take this one example of our limitations, No One can go from success to success to success. Life will not allow it. Short answer, there is something that throws trouble to everyone without missing ANYONE. Short answer again, from this, we can determine that we all have an intelligent enemy (if you will allow that term). You had said.... '..the universe doing it's thing' Well, we DO have the troublemaker 'doing it's thing', and NOT ONE person is able to avoid it. So maybe -'coincidence, synchronicity, good people doing nice things, science, nature'- should not be edited off the list of ways 'benevolent' things can come to you from the big footed god. Unfortunately, the evidence does not support the idea that 'god is all loving', or as jesus put it...'the devil knows not for whom he works' That is a hell of a line if you ask me. And I think it is his second best line. Not a lot of religions tie god and the devil(if you will) together as working buddies ! I have to go back to that line one more time, -no one can go from success to success to success in life-. The other limitations we are under, basically seem to set us up in a situation where, well, I dont know if I can manage to capture that in words tonight, but for me, what are my options? Here I am, armed with time and energy, and putting the issue of creature comforts and working aside, my best option is to TRY to take all the best qualities I can muster, and TRY to have love in my heart, and even though another of our limitations is that we cannot be constant, and we cannot completely control our experience, I can live and find someone to love today, bring some sun, maybe some fun, and start fresh every day no matter that I HAD to have 'mistakes' or problems in the past. And I will have problems today also. Life demands it. You know, I know a few 'tough guys'. They were all fresh on the scene, ready to do battle with laws, others, niceties, disregarding any limitations we are under here on this playing field of life, drugs, drink, thier own human nature and limitations defeated them all. tough guys end up on thier knees! I am not talking about society and jails doing it. I may be the wrong guy to talk to frankly, because I cant lead anyone to a lovey dovey view of god. (not that YOU were looking for that out of me). But there is too much evidence that there IS a god, and frankly, I am a bit scared of the guy because the game being played here is more than a little rough. I have freinds that say 'oh heavenly father' and I am like, 'excuse me, HF, but I do know you exist, but YOU got a hellacious game going on here. Like the guy in Fiddler on the Roof, good guy, plays along, knows a little something about reality here, and his family and town and everything he worked for gets ripped apart. He is still intact, but sheesh! You and I also have to (in spite of) our past, make something out of today. We CAN have more good things in our life, granted we will have some problems just because... but you and I have years ahead of us and they are filled with all possibilities. All you lost you could regain, in a different way, maybe a very good way. You and I DO need to take action, cant hide away where life cant help us make things happen. We DO need to try. Dont give up on your dreams that seem missed. They can happen in a different way. Still. Hope

Subject: Shit bill,now i've lost my deposit.. From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 02:28:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello mr bill, Tnks fr th spd rdng crs X I'll have to apologise to my local book Dealer if i'm to hold my head up in this town. i dnt kno wht th fuks gong on. bt i do thnk yu hve a gd grp n it i kno tht whn th dst setls i hope t hve n ntrnsc trst n a bnevlnt frce. Gve me sm tym nd eyl be happy agin. Shit I sound egsuctly like a NuZulunder! Cat maybe or Stephen Hawking on Helium. (Thesis there somewhere..) Much cuddles to you bill X

Subject: Re: Shit bill,now i've lost my despair From: bill To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:46:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi XB, I like the word iii, or ntrnsc. that was such a hopeful line, really made my day. Today was one of those days where a lot happened but it all went my way and so many things happened that were tailor made just for me. It was sort of a benevolent burst fer christs sake. I could list the stuff, some would be hard for anyone else to understand why it was tailor made for me, of course, the car battery also went dead, and one project blew up in my face, but at least now I know that I HAVE to have some amount of trouble in some form and that is just the way it is. You know, it really does matter how we see the big picture. Have one view, and you are bowing 5 times a day towards a rock in Mecca. Imagine the dreadful burden buddhists have, first, they have to do the impossible, and they have the threat of millions of years of being reborn in bodies of suffering to get back to a human form, and right now, while they have it, they better figure out how to merge! ugh! Yet for me today, life lined up too many 'coincidences' that are tailor made for me and basically is saying to me, 'yeah you DO have many hardships that come, but see, life also can deal you a hand where you KNOW random chance could never pull it off.' I used to have days or times that were special in the past, and of course I thunk that prem rawat was in some way a part. He DID leave no room for me to think someone else was involved. Like he said in the late nineties....'(dont) thank god?!?! Thank the MASTER!' Thanks prem, put another nail in my coffin. Still, as I was remided of today, trouble filled as life gets sometimes, it is also tender and somehow able to do some personal touches. As a gop, (male gopi) The freaking dust took years on the forum to settle. And it was only when I was able to have confidence in the validity of evidence, that I could settle down into a relationship with life that I could invest my heart in. If life is like some guys say, it is too cold for me. If life is like some guys say, it is too mean for me. If life is like some guys say, it is too hopeless for me. I got to the forum a few years before you so I can speed read you also {I think} ALL the theories about how guys say life is. They all fail on some point or another. Yes it is cold mean and hopeless, but it is also all the good stuff. And that good stuff extends to you and me. We CAN live in the warmth of a life that wants to love us. You have lived a life of love. I know walls were erected around us, as we did the will of a false god. But our hearts were definately on. Strong we are actually. Just charge through the dust if you can and revel in the joy of living today if you can. Think right now of the top couple things you would like in your life right now. They can happen. A little differently than you imagine, but they can happen. Do you need money for something? I will try to help. I had no one in my 3D world when I came to the forum that I could talk to. Luckily, the forum really came to life. I hope you have someone whom you can cuddle with during this time. If not, do make yourself available in ways where life can help make that happen. You deserve that. One thing that can be said about a 30 year devotee, you have a true heart. That needs an outlet. Towards life, and towards someone special. And hard as it is, I TRY to muster that up to everyone. We dont really have a choice frankly. Life is too hard when I close off. I guess it is trying to tell me something, like- open up buddy! Well, I guess that IS in my best interest. I dont post much on the forum, mostly read, I hope I am not blabbing at you too much! I know it is a world of hurt to leave the rawat family religion mess. I just dont want you to take as long as I did. Losing bearings is the hardest thing perhaps. New bearings are there to lock on to. Avoid the distracting voices. Jump to the head of the class. My wife has put on some tonnage, you know, there are lots of guys that just dont care about that. I am one of them. Women are harsh to each other too often. Dont let the harshness of the world deter you from a brand new day. It is a world of love if we want to live it that way.

Subject: My Dear Bill, Thank You... From: Bai Ji To: bill Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:30:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your words do me Goood. I am bereft right now, but things will shift, soon I hope. I do have an ntrnsc naievete that may see me through. Or it just may fuck me up agin, anywhichway a grrls gotta do..... Ta muchly for your concern re me, I am deeply touched. (well that's been suggested before by people in the medical profession also) I hope to talk with you again bill Love Bai Ji xxxx

Subject: Hope I'm not butting in From: Carl To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 06:47:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but I want to say how much I appreciate your emotionally honest post. It seems that you are wrestling with the big issues, the ones we all thought were so neatly answered by our dear old cult. The thinly veiled hinduism we were wrapped in (and scarcely understood) offered for a time a fresh vantage point and alternative to the scarcely understood dogmas into which we were born. But we jettisoned so much, our 'god-given' powers of discernment, free inquiry and debate and the so-called western tradition of scientific methodology. We loved the la-la land. I have no quarrel with hinduism or buddhism per se. Or even christianity and dozens of other systems, for that matter. They are the attempts by, and reflections of, our human limitations to understand what is going on here in the universe. They probably serve a good purpose for preventing total social chaos, and have inspired considerable artistic and imaginative beauty. But then nincompoops from all schools of thought will use their doctrines and jargons as bludgeons and tools of coercion. It reminds me of different gangs converging on a street corner to batter each other with their placards that read 'God is Love', 'May Peace and Wisdom Prevail' and the like. (Just see what is happening in India lately, or the Middle East, or in Northern Ireland.) The imagination, one of our human capacities, is perhaps the most awesome tool in our scientific and philosophic kit. Is it a limitation? a boon? or both? I recall that Albert Einstein said 'Imagination is more important than knowledge.' Here is another Einstein quote: 'He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.' And another: 'As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.' (wow!) (Of course we now have to avoid creating the Einstein religion!) All our philosophies and the shapes of our civilizations are the reflections of our human imagination. But that is not to ignore the 'solid ground', as you put it. There do seem to be fundamental principles of human wisdom, the Golden Rule perhaps chief among them. Is it provably 'true' or 'scientific'? Would it matter? What have you discovered to be the solid ground? Best, C.

Subject: Re: Hope I'm not butting in From: bill To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:42:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the comments, quotes and the question. Hell, I'll send you membership money to join the einstien cult with you:) The above post also had you in mind when I made it. Thoughts?

Subject: Tough times cause paranoia? From: Carl To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:35:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: However, as the guy said, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that God isn't really out to get you . . . ! But seriously, it seems that you are harboring the idea that there is some force or agency or god that is personally tripping you up from time to time, targeting you. Is that what you meant? Or what about the karmic concept? But one has to accept reincarnation for that to 'work'. (Else how to explain disasters happening to infants, or the existence of Mozart and other prodigies.) Just how 'calculating' is God in any individual case, I wonder; just how meddlesome in tweaking one's experience to provide 'needed lessons' or other salutary tribulations. Or do you think this may just be our human tendency to project a divine design upon random or infinitely complex chaotic events? Maybe humans are creating God as we go -- on the fly, so to speak -- in terms and with (projected) qualities that we can readily apprehend. 'Tis late now; time for some serious nocturnal astral traveling and window-rattling snoring! Best, C.

Subject: ReTough times cause growth or destruction From: bill To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:56:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carl, It IS late like you said. Let me print out your post and read it tomorrow a few times during the day.

Subject: Butt away Carl x (nt) From: Bai Ji To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:37:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your posts always make me smile. Thanks. I like the way you write. Even when you claim that you're feeling a bit ''uncultivated'' you come off sounding absolutely fabulous and I sure hope you are.

Subject: Re: Bahkti Virus.... From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:57:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dear Pat, I am still here, sometimes Just but still here, Lurking. Waiting to read each morsel of direct information re my betrayal by my Perfect Master. I sift through the site , hoping that a Brave PAM (Person Around Maharaji) has posted while I've been asleep and filled in some of the missing pieces of my life. I can't get too frustrated as I know how frightening this all can be. But shit I admire those that do. It takes such courage and is of invaluable help gluing and validating me at my core. So much of what I have endured has served to undermine my belief in my Self to a dangerous level. Major Construction underway, that is after the Demolition is completed. I haven't felt to post for a while, just been Lurking. OT's (Off Topics)hold No interest for me at this stage of my life, Exiting is a Full Time Job and I need tools to help me. I come here to get any Hammer Drill/Shovel that I can. Pretty one pointed again I guess. I think of you often and want to thank you for being caring of me. XXXXBai Ji

Subject: To Bai Ji From: JHB To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:14:57 (EST) Email Address: brauns@apollo.lv Message: Bai Ji, I'm also pretty one-pointed here these days. Having seen the lengths premies, almost certainly under Maharaji's orders, will go to to stop us, I don't mind chatting a little, but I feel very much on a war footing. I am currently trying to get a victim of sexual advances from Maharaji to tell her story. I know that would break the spell for a whole lot of people, and leave the Catweasels floundering. Be strong, you've just been through something most people can't imagine. After this, you can handle anything:-) All the best, John.

Subject: Thanks John X (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 16:26:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I wish I had some TNT, Bai Ji From: PatC To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:55:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't it be great if you could get the demolition done quickly and start the fun bit of reconstructing. Actually, I didn't really have to do much reconstruction because, under all the cult crap, was a pretty happy, practical fellow anyway. But, of course, I was not in it up to my ears in quite the same way you were. You know I'm always only an email away if you need anything. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Re: Rushdie parodied Maharaji... From: Jim To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:51:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazon.com Anyone who has spent time in the developing world will know that one of Bombay's claims to fame is the enormous film industry that churns out hundreds of musical fantasies each year. The other, of course, is native son Salman Rushdie--less prolific, perhaps than Bollywood, but in his own way just as fantastical. Though Rushdie's novels lack the requisite six musical numbers that punctuate every Bombay talkie, they often share basic plot points with their cinematic counterparts. Take, for example, his 1980 Booker Prize-winning Midnight's Children: two children born at the stroke of midnight on August 15, 1947--the moment at which India became an independent nation--are switched in the hospital. The infant scion of a wealthy Muslim family is sent to be raised in a Hindu tenement, while the legitimate heir to such squalor ends up establishing squatters' rights to his unlucky hospital mate's luxurious bassinet. Switched babies are standard fare for a Hindi film, and one can't help but feel that Rushdie's world-view--and certainly his sense of the fantastical--has been shaped by the films of his childhood. But whereas the movies, while entertaining, are markedly mediocre, Midnight's Children is a masterpiece, brilliant written, wildly unpredictable, hilarious and heartbreaking in equal measure. Rushdie's narrator, Saleem Sinai, is the Hindu child raised by wealthy Muslims. Near the beginning of the novel, he informs us that he is falling apart--literally: I mean quite simply that I have begun to crack all over like an old jug--that my poor body, singular, unlovely, buffeted by too much history, subjected to drainage above and drainage below, mutilated by doors, brained by spittoons, has started coming apart at the seams. In short, I am literally disintegrating, slowly for the moment, although there are signs of an acceleration. In light of this unfortunate physical degeneration, Saleem has decided to write his life story, and, incidentally, that of India's, before he crumbles into '(approximately) six hundred and thirty million particles of anonymous, and necessarily oblivious, dust.' It seems that within one hour of midnight on India's independence day, 1,001 children were born. All of those children were endowed with special powers: some can travel through time, for example; one can change gender. Saleem's gift is telepathy, and it is via this power that he discovers the truth of his birth: that he is, in fact, the product of the illicit coupling of an Indian mother and an English father, and has usurped another's place. His gift also reveals the identities of all the other children and the fact that it is in his power to gather them for a 'midnight parliament' to save the nation. To do so, however, would lay him open to that other child, christened Shiva, who has grown up to be a brutish killer. Saleem's dilemma plays out against the backdrop of the first years of independence: the partition of India and Pakistan, the ascendancy of 'The Widow' Indira Gandhi, war, and, eventually, the imposition of martial law. We've seen this mix of magical thinking and political reality before in the works of Günter Grass and Gabriel García Márquez. What sets Rushdie apart is his mad prose pyrotechnics, the exuberant acrobatics of rhyme and alliteration, pun, wordplay, proper and 'Babu' English chasing each other across the page in a dizzying, exhilarating cataract of words. Rushdie can be laugh-out-loud funny, but make no mistake--this is an angry book, and its author's outrage lends his language wings. Midnight's Children is Salman Rushdie's irate, affectionate love song to his native land--not so different from a Bombay talkie, after all. --Alix Wilber Midnight's Children www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140132708/qid=1015818009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_7_1/104-8768544-8059164

Subject: It's really real !!! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:46:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Finally! Lara from Aley tells how her childhood dreams have unfolded since receiving Knowledge... What I have been thinking about ever since childhood is finally starting to unwrap in front of my very eyes, and all the credit goes to my master: Maharaji. All my questions that used to circulate daily: Is there really a Santa Claus? What about the Easter Bunny? Who really put those quarters under my pillow each time I lost a baby tooth? have been answered and in more simplicity than I ever thought possible. (Yes on all three, btw) My life has new meaning, sounds ring out more clearly and days are just BETTER. And this will be the best Christmas ever! That one thing that always seemed MISSING no matter what was there, has suddenly nestled in, and i KNOW that it will never be missing again. I just want to take this opportunity to thank Maharaji for giving me and everyone else this precious gift of nollige. There are many people here in Lebanon waiting for him to come so they can receive self-nollige. We can hardly contain ourselves due to the excitement!! (snicker) This is a new start for me... (phase two?) Thank you, Maharaji.

Subject: Cliffy's in Luv From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:54:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember the Motown record, Chuckie's in Love? How about this whacknut: Cliff Arens This lovely life Cliff from the Bronx district of New York City has a short but telling story... In the last two years, you have brought so much joy and smiles to my life... You are my truest love... Hoo whaaaa, Cliffy boy,at least get yerself a blowup doll...

Subject: Yes I'm Special...te dum de do tra la tra la From: I'm so special... To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:54:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This one needs no improvements: Jenny Sandara Quispe Nacayauri An amazing feeling For Jenny Sandra from Lima, Knowledge has made her life special... To be in this love, makes me feel like someone so special in this life... I am so thankful to my best friend Maharaji, my dear master.

Subject: A neutral perspective From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:19:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recently, I called an old pre-K friend who I haven't seen in 25 years. In the course of conversation, I mentioned my 911-triggered post traumatic stress (PTSD) from childhood paralysis. He later asked 'Hey, whatever happened to that guru you were into?' I told him that I was no longer into M&K. After our conversation, he took it upon himself to do a Google search for Maharaji and found EPO. Following is the email from my friend. I think his observations, from an unbiased and neutral viewpoint, are quite remarkable. He is a PhD college professor and has approached the topic of leaving M&K in a scholarly way. Richard, Thanks for both calling and writing. After your call, I did a search and then went to the ex-premie.org web site and did a bit of reading. If the info is to be believed, then Prempal Rawat must be a big disappointment. However, it seems to me that spiritual growth made by the followers is valid and so the followers, who believed deeply, were the ultimate winners, as long as the belief went beyond Rawat. That's my quick take with a positive spin, but could be wrong. It did occur to me that this transition (premie to ex-premie) alone would be enough to shell shock (PTSD) someone, so I wonder if this might be in the mix. By 'in the mix' he is wondering if my leaving M contributed to my PTSD. I replied that in my case, I had left M&K years before but that it is possible that the numbing effect of M&K may have allowed me to avoid feeling the old trauma until 911. In the past I would have argued that was a good thing. Now I know it is better for me to have faced the music and dealt with my trauma. I also told him that some people who do a rapid exit have expressed PTSD symptoms. Having one's cosmology suddenly ripped out from under them could be traumatic indeed. Interestingly he observes that those who 'believed deeply' benefited regardless of M's betrayal. I agree. I think that just going through the motions was an end in itself and other Ex's have said the same. Of course there was the ol' switcheroo by M but does that negate our sincerity? Once I saw that my sincerity was being squandered, it became my responsibility to tell the truth about what went down so others will know. As my friend says "as long as it went beyond Rawat". Richard

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:16:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard: As my friend says 'as long as it went beyond Rawat'. Is this really neutral? Suppose the entire paradigm upon which Rawat's 'worldview' was based was false? Wouldn't 'spiritual growth' involve going back and starting over? Wouldn't Rawat's little digression be a bit like the penalty laps that winter biathletes have to endure when they miss the target too many times? One thing seems pretty clear. There aren't any faultless leaders, though we seem pretty taken with the idea that there are. Why? In reading David Garrow's *Bearing the Cross' about MLK, Jr. King was apparently obssessed with the possibility that the broader public would find out about his 'compelling needs,' which make Bill Clinton's exploits look positively modest. Leaders are flawed. It's how they cope with those flaws that reveals their character--their 'fitness' for the job. --Scott --Scott

Subject: Good questions, Scott From: Richard To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:15:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, by "neutral perspective", I simply meant that he is neither PWK nor EX but an independant observer. Your other questions are good ones that I don't have clear answers for. I do think your 'penalty laps' metaphor is excellent. At least we were in the game even though the game was rigged. With Clinton, it wasn't that he was getting serviced in the Oral Office that bugged so many people, it was the fact he lied about it that is unforgiveable. Many premies will say 'Who cares if M's getting it on the side?' That's not the point, it's the ethics involved with seducing trusting devotees that is the point. Same with the other issues raised here.

Subject: The Flawed Leader From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 17:49:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard: With Clinton, it wasn't that he was getting serviced in the Oral Office that bugged so many people, it was the fact he lied about it that is unforgiveable. Many premies will say 'Who cares if M's getting it on the side?' Why? Isn't this where the oval orifice of a holy man is located? (It came to me in a flash.) --Scott

Subject: I like this post Richard From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 09:56:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It rings a lot of bells with me. The ripping away of an inner world ....... As I keep saying, I would rather have been a premie and left than never have been a premie at all. I was watching some old video clips with Nigel and Mouldie yesterday (that I had dug out of my bin) and I really found I can only watch the Judith Chalmers Maharaji Travelogues - I cant listen to him speaking, but I am nostalgic for the festivals and Holi. I LOVED them !!!!! My memories are still precious to me... but i cant listen to him talking any more.. it seems that in all the thousands of times I heard him speak he didnt say anything about anything.. just a lot of pauses and bleats which stimulated and soothed the brain, but actually he didnt say much, and even the one word was of value.. FEEL was used to numb and bind me. It remains good advice though.. to feel and to question 'this life' and to carry on with your integrity and your quest intact ! i wouldnt have missed it for the world. Your friend sounds Brilliant ! is he good looking ? Loafie

Subject: Re: I like this post From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:53:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Loafie Ji, the memories are ours to keep. They are memories of an open heart and wedding night lovers. Just because the beloved proved unworthy does not mean we did not feel love. That love was ours to give and is ours to keep. Bursting into song: And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. It sure is wonderful to be both lover and beloved with a my wife who is a real human being. Loaf, my friend is brilliant, a college professor, guitarist and pianist, handsome, married with two sons in their twenties and decidedly straight. Sorry to pop your bubble but there's other geese in the sky, errr fish in the sea.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Joe To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:41:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure what this person means by 'as long as it went beyond Rawat', but it seems he might be saying that you might have gotten something good by being in cult. Like, for example, if you looked beyond what a fraud Maharaji is, and were able to reduce stress by doing meditation, then that would be a 'benefit' kind of a 'side effect' of something that is almost entirely a deception.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:00:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I should ask him directly what he meant but, from his email, I assumed he recognized that M was a fraud but one could benefit as long as M wasn't the be all and end all. I guess the argument hinges on whether one considered his/her involvement as personal growth or serving the living Lord. We all know what M wanted us to believe. As I type this, I realize how difficult it was to see 'beyond Rawat' but somehow I believe I did. Funny, Joe but I recently found one of my first posts where you challenged my saying the same thing. At this point I admit I could still be protecting my ego from having wasted those years by thinking I benefited. I even hesitated to include that part of his comments because I'm not totally convinced one way or the other. Hard to say some 30 years on.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 08:31:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your friend's assessment of any 'spritual growth' under Rawat is questionable. I'm not sure how much of the website he took the time to read. I say this because the main emphasis of goomradji was on devotion to a master, wasn't it? To me, that isn't growth (spiritual, personal, whatever) it's dependency of the highest form. That's just my take. Remember the scary things like the 'rotting vegetables' and the fear that one wasn't being devoted enough or trusting enough or too much in one's mind? My aunt who ended up killing herself certainly didn't attain any growth. She wasn't able to get past goomradji because he didn't allow for that. (Unfortunately there was no ex-premie.org in her day.)

Subject: I'm sorry, Jennifer From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 12:33:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So sorry to hear about your aunt, Jennifer. That's truly a tragedy. The key part of my friend's comment was as long as the belief went beyond Rawat. It is true the Knowledge as offered by M is all about absolute surrender and devotion to him. It is sold as a personal experience but it is about codependence. But my point was that even though M turned out to be unworthy of our sincerity, there was some benefit in going through the motions. Not all agree, of course, but that's my experience (pardon the expression). I agree that my friend had only had a quick look at EPO. Still, I thought his unbiased opinion was interesting especially his comment about PTSD being a natural result of exiting.

Subject: Thank you, Richard From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 09:14:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To comment more, I'd have to know exactly which beliefs you or your friend might consider to be okay beyond Rawat. (or what your experience was that was beneficial to you.) I agree with Rawat that people should enjoy their lives. He and I part company there. I completely disagree with his belief that knowledge and devotion are the only ways to accomplish joy and fullfillment. That is just plain ridiculous. If someone enjoys meditation, fine, but I don't think it should be made into something it's not. Of course, that is just my experience, too! I think the main benefit from going through the motions (IF one survived it, that is) would be 'That which does not kill us makes us stronger'*--ya know what I'm saying? You get out of a cult and you live to tell, you are one strong person! Everyone here should be very proud of themselves for that one :) It seems to be entirely possible that PTSD could show up later because of exiting a cult, which for most premies is a very stressful event. I also believe others could walk away more easily and perhaps not be effected as harshly. This would depend upon one's personality, how devoted you were to Maharaji, how deeply entrenched in the belief system you were, etc. (*Eleanor Roosevelt said this, didn't she?)

Subject: Nicely said, Jennifer From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 14:37:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't add anything to what I've said elsewhere in this thread. If devotion to M was the total package, I think no benefit was to be had because there was no return on the investment. But, for myself, there were personal growth benefits that did go beyond M. Sure he was the misdirected object of my devotion but, as I said to Loaf above, I was the one who felt the greater capacity to love regardless of the motivation of the beloved. I learned how to be impeccable in my craft because I thought M deserved that. Now I bring that learned impeccability to my business and am nicely rewarded for it. So for me, it wasn't a total waste of time. I'm not letting M off the hook, just trying to be clear about my past. I liked your Eleanor Roosevelt quote. Now there's a woman who didn't put up with any guff. BTW, I did a Google search and the quote is attributed to Franklin Roosevelt speaking about Pearl Harbor attack, Eleanor Roosevelt and also Friedrich Nietzsche. Whoever said it first, you've just said again. I think one thing that has made us stonger was gaining a more discriminating eye towards potential fraud.

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: bolly shri To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:59:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well put it sounds about right if you chuck away the frame it doesn't mean the picture is no good so we cann posses as our own what was once regarded as the offal of ms grace Bolly shri

Subject: Re: A neutral perspective From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:35:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I guess your friend's speculation might be worth considering if only 'spiritual growth' meant something. Does it? What? I used to think it not only meant something, it meant everything. Now it just sounds like an empty phrase. As for PTSD, I got my first real understanding of this phenomenon from the recent PBS series on the brain. Apparently, you need to have suffered the original trauma severely enough that the triggers can't help but bring back the whole flood of hormonal reaction. Now the interesting thing about us is that, on the one hand M traumatized us, particularly with his heavy satsang and the promise of a fate worse than death should we screw up. On the other hand, though, we had a whole flight mechanism into meditation we were trained to employ. So what might have been traumatic, wasn't necessarily, as we actually enjoyed Maharaji scaring our minds, sometimes, just so we'd have no choice but to 'bliss out'. What do you think?

Subject: I think K = tranquiliser addiction From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 10:07:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it was quite hard for me to face 'reality'... it still is (if such a thing exists.. i used to think it meant something..) after 20 years floating in a bubble of faith and emotional dislocation.. YES I found the trauma of adjusting to life outside the bubble, and the shock of re-assessing those 20 years and rubbing them against the hard edges, the trauma of being FORCED to face and deal with my own feelings as my entire frame of reference and identity crumbled ... such things are not easy

Subject: Oh no - the S word! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 18:15:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did I really let the S word stay in his comments? What the hell was I thinking? I could have changed 'spiritual growth' to 'personal growth' but that probably would have set off alarms, too. Interesting point re: PTSD, Jim. I think that the meditation and the much praised bliss state anesthetized us from feeling anything at all except love for M. So it was hard to know we were being psychologicly abused because 'it was all so beautiful'. M's harrangues confirmed the beliefs he had instilled in us that we weren't worthy. I recall many of the hard core premies telling us how grateful we should be that M lowered himself to yell at us. I guess it would be similar to a masochist begging to be abused and thinking it was pleasurable because down deep they thought they were naughty and deserved it. You may accurate in saying that we escaped into meditation/bliss to both try to be a 'good premie' and also avoid the psychological torture by numbing out. Sounds logical but I can't say for sure as I'm not a psychotherapist. Hey, maybe we should get Jack Kornfield's opinion on this. :)

Subject: Re: Oh no - the S word! From: Jack Kornfield To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:02:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Richard, May I extend a very open and non-threatening namaste, to you? The greeting that extends from my heart to all sentient beings is nothing to shake stick at (aha! Quite a funny buddhist joke, don't you think? --oops, there's another one! Chuckle, chuckle, ahem, ah yes, where were we?). You would like to know what I think about bad gurus doing bad things and whether or not the effect lingers in a scientific fashion? Well, Richard, it's like this. Although I'm committed in this life and all others to refrain from passing judgment on any other sentient beings, I must honour your heart which sings, loudly and clearly, that your former guru was a bad guru. Assuming, of course, that that is your heart and not just the internal noise that buddha so succinctly called ghoppiviajannnadhasstamundanabehat, who am I to argue? In fact, I honour your right to argue with yourself, if you wish, but, as my own rishi used to say, vihanallador khandopal or, as I translated in my last book, 'Who's keeping score during the commercials?' In other words, you can do it, but can it do you? I embrace the work of our brothers and sisters in science. Science, you'll recall from my book Science? Why not? is only now coming to terms with deep, profound truths the Buddha expressed with shining brilliance. Buddha himself noted the conflict between the laddhacaldap and the novabijhannapad. His teachings in this respect inspired the doctrine of 'Good touching / Bad touching' which is now taught worldwide but, as any student of mine knows, much of the subtlety, or jannapijdjann, is sadly forgotten. Now don't get me wrong, I embrace the forgetfullness ... indeed, I, myself, have actually forgotten what it was I wanted to say .... Peace be with you, Richard. I mean you no harm, honest. Jack Kornfield ... a GOOD guru since 1982!

Subject: Thanks, Jack From: Richard To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some folks around here think you don't know Jack about conciousness but you ARE Jack. How cool is that? Thanks for taking time out from your busy schedule of diligently and selflessly focusing on ghoppiviajannnadhasstamundanabehat for all of suffering humanity to come here and set us straight. It never occurred to us before that Maharaji could have been a bad guru as you so expertly put it. Go figure, who woulda thunk it? By the way, have you seen Postie's Ten-Fold Path? I think Postie is as ethical as you are, Jack and you two should network on the astral plane sometime. A hearty Namaste to you, too. Richard, shamelessly calling attention to his old post Postie's Ten-Fold Path www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=10646.36093794882

Subject: Oh, really? How nice, I'm sure From: Jack Kornfield To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:18:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, I did indeed look at that Ten-Fold Path and found that I was abundantly please with myself as I did so. Indeed, it was the observer within me that caught it first, drawing my attention ever so gently to the fact that, yes, I, too, could laugh the laugh of the open-heart. That 'path' was so humourous and full of buddha-like mirth. May I remind you, though, that these jokes are nothing new. Indeed, they were all discussed at length and with great respect and wisdom at the second meeting, or assembly, of the Great Prajñâpâramitâ-sûtra, minutes of which were translated by Ven. Hsüan-tsang into Chinese during 660-663 C.E., Taishô Vol. 7. The matter arose again in Pañca-Gilgit: Raghu Vira, a commentary in which you'll recall Lokesh Chandra, and Edward Conze, editors of the Gilgit Buddhist Manuscripts, parts 3 (Facsimile edition), and Raghu Vira, editor of the Shata-Pitaka Series, volume 10 (3) (New Delhi: International Academy of Indian Culture, 1966-70). really went to town on it. If I may, the latter reported as follows: We have finished deciphering the Gilgit Manuscript of the Pañcavimshatisâhasrikâ Prajñâpâramitâ from folio 124b to 210b, which corresponds to the second to fourth Abhisamayas. Detailed footnoting, however, still needs to be done. We are exploring ways of promoting public access to our work on these ancient manuscripts. The first problem we have encountered is the diacritical marks. So, yes, Richard, if you're able to get past the diacritical marks and want to have a little fun, by all means, please do. Just remember, I have written a number of books. People trust me. I'm not saying that that's particularly relevant to this narrow issue but, don't forget, this is Jack Kornfield here. Be nice. Many of your 'folds' brought a buddha-like glee to my heart but my favorite, of course, was the proscription to put off until the day after tomorrow what you can do tomorrow, or something like that. The eternal void of nothingness knows that that's me to a tee. Mind you, it's you too, is it not? Is this not the source of all humour, the universality of things? I leave you with one last comment, Richard. -- see? Yet another Buddha-like joke! HO HO HO!!! Jack Kornfield A GOOD guru since sometime in the late seventies

Subject: Such wisdom, Jack From: Richard To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:51:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Jack I must say this with all equanimity and kindness for all the sentient beings you have ever been and ever will be, but you've really missed the boat, dude. And I say that with the utmost respect. It's not my Ten-Fold Path at all. It's Postie's Ten-Fold Path. Oh, I get it. That was a trick comment to see if my ego would swell up and take credit for Postie's brilliant thinking for which I am but a vessel, a conduit, a cosmic DSL line. You truly are a great teacher and I metaphoricly bow to your superior wisdom. After all, you've written whole books and I just fritter away my time posting to my imaginary cyber friends on this forum. That said, you may want to consider taking yourself a long walk and hug a live tree or something. I think you're getting just a wee bit hung up on this diacritical marks issue. Oh, never mind. --- See, I made a Buddha joke, too. OK, thanks for dropping in and we'll see you for Mu tea at the next Intergalactic Non-Threatening Persons of Wisdom Conference in Sedona. Or we could put it off indefinitely knowing everything is always happening right now anyway so why rush. Richard, in a bardo state of mind

Subject: Ba-Ba-Black Sheep !!! From: Ed To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:29:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Disclaimer: For entertainment purposes only. Molester Arrested mahatma.jagdeo.wasarrested.com/S-India/Outside+of+New+Delhi/sheep

Subject: Gotta love those spiritual leaders OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:13:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fron Newsweek: ANDREA YATES Examining a Spiritual Leader’s Influence Was Andrea Yates’s “spiritual leader” partly responsible for her delusional thinking? As testimony comes to a close in her trial, evangelist Michael Woroniecki’s influence over the mother accused of murdering her five children has become an issue. A day after Yates, who has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, drowned the children in the family bathtub, she told a jail psychiatrist that her bad mothering had made the kids “not righteous,” and, as a result, they would “perish in the fires of hell.” If she killed them while they were young, God would show mercy on their souls. Where did these thoughts stem from? Yates’s attorney, George Parnham, has put into evidence a copy of Woroniecki’s newsletter The Perilous Times, sent to Yates and her husband, Rusty. In it a poem laments the disobedient kids of the “Modern Mother Worldly” and ends with the question, “What becomes of the children of such a Jezebel?” Houston psychiatrist Lucy Puryear told the jury that literature is “what her delusions are built around.” In a letter to NEWSWEEK, Woroniecki, 48, denies negatively influencing Yates, and points at Rusty. “Knock, knock ... Hello ... earth to Rusty ... your wife and children are in desperate need of your love,” he writes. “I warned him over and over again that his life was headed for tragedy.” Rusty, who declined to comment, first met Woroniecki while he was a student at Auburn University. Woroniecki was preaching on campus. Rusty introduced the preacher to Andrea, and in 1998 the Yateses bought a Greyhound bus from Woroniecki, who had lived in it with his wife and their six children as they toured the nation. During a 1994 protest at Brigham Young University, Woroniecki called the school’s women “contemporary witches.” He told them sarcastically, “Go and be a 20th-century career woman and forget about your families.” One of his pamphlets proclaimed, “As man was created to dominate, God reveals that woman was created to be his helpmeet.” Though Andrea quit her job to stay home with the kids, Woroniecki says he never urged her to do this. “Although she was an excellent nurse, she never wanted to pursue a career,” he wrote NEWSWEEK. Rusty told the jury that he agreed with Woroniecki’s support for home-schooling and living the “simple life” in a bus—two decisions the Yateses copied but which Puryear says caused significant stress for the passive Andrea. Forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz agreed, and said these factors led to her two previous suicide attempts. “She couldn’t say to people, ‘I can’t stand this’.” For his part, Woroniecki writes that he and his wife were “a very compassionate and caring couple who did all we could to love them ... After all we did for this family, it is preposterous for us to be cast into such a terrible image.” — Anne Belli Gesalman

Subject: A Personal View on Recent Events From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 02:08:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I’m a little concerned about recent trends in the online ex-premie and premie forums, and some thoughts occur to me. Firstly, I think there are different reasons why we post on these forums. For me and others, the motive is clear - we want to discuss the truth about Maharaji, and to counter misunderstandings or lies. The social element comes a distant second, although real life meetings with exes have been wonderful events. Others also have a very clear agenda, and that is to do everything possible to disrupt the process of discussing the truth about Maharaji. They are also one-pointed, and will utilise any opportunity to prevent serious and focused discussion of Maharaji. In particular, they want to make the on-line forums unpleasant places for wavering premies, and in this they are being reasonably successful. Then there are those ex-premies and premies in between, who post as a hobby, and have no clear purpose in being here other than to engage in interesting conversations. I think this middle group, especially the exes, are being deliberately and quite cleverly targeted by the second group to help achieve the disruption of the forums, and it’s sad to watch. We ex-premies are not a social group, and apart from our aim to share the truth about Maharaji, and our past lives as premies, we don’t have a great deal in common. There have been serious disagreements amongst us, that sadly have led to strong emotions. It’s impossible to easily resolve these, just as it’s difficult when the same things happen in normal human interactions. So while I cannot change anybody’s opinion of any other ex-premie here, I ask that you do not let others, with their own agenda, use you to discredit the aims of the ex-premie forum and the ex-premie websites. Just look at the glee with which Catweasel and others have jumped on the recent disagreements to further drive wedges between ex-premies. If you are an ex-premie and are interested in providing a place for wavering premies to read the truth about Maharaji, then be very clear that Catweasel and his kind are your enemies. Think carefully before helping him in his work. John.

Subject: I agree From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:53:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nothing is as absurd as seeing exes molly coddle premies who have demonstrated, time and again, that they are committed to shutting us down however they can. That's not just foolish but it's an insult to the rest of us, even to the extent of supporting these particular premies' bullshit but much stated argument that there are nice exes and mean ones, fair exes and unfair ones. Likewise, when an ex tells Catweasel, for instance, as one did yeserday on LG, that his big error (besides harrassing Aussie exes) has been retaliating in kind against abuse he's suffered here, I have to wonder what planet that person's on. Catweasal has been nothing but a flaming troll here from the moment he started. Period. Simliarly, when an ex says, as that same one did yesterday, that there is 'spin on both sides', I can only scratch my head. That, too, is extraordinarily false and an insult to all of us. I'd like to see her back that one up, belive me. Then there's the complaint that 'alternative views' aren't tolerated here. It's a discussion board, isn't it? Maybe the best thing in the world is for the proponents of those alternative ideas to fight, fight, fight for them until there's no fight left. Maybe only then can the relative strength of one viewpoint really prove out against another. But it's a bullshit, weenie, I'm even willing to throw in 'passive aggressive' unless someone stops me, excuse to blame others for sticking to their guns in debate. Could it be, perhaps, that the proponents of 'alternative viewpoints' just don't have as strong and cohesive positions for believing what they do? Anyway, at the end of the day, when I see an ex-premie cozy up with a current cult member just to grandstand or try to show up another ex as being not as 'nice', I have to laugh. It's transparent, pathetic and ultimately self-defeating. Some of us are 'people pleasers' and really, really, really want everyone to like us. But this is a hot zone, this playing field wherein former cult members come out to knock down their former cult leader's pinata and current cult members try to stop them. Yes, in some ways, it is most definitely a team sport and yes, there are times when people should look in the mirror to see what colour they're wearing. No, that doesn't make the ex-premies a 'cult' as some people have alleged, as stupid as that sounds. It just means that there are broad scale common agendas here and that shared by the exes is a hell of a lot different than the premies'.

Subject: You're right, but... From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:41:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... you could try to stick to pursuasive, rational argument when confronting such behaviour in ex-premies, instead of the vitriolic attacks bringing up old wounds, couldn't you?:) John who clearly understands he has enemies - thanks, Jim.

Subject: Yes, John, absolutely :) [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:10:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'll post whatever I damn well please From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:29:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And if I go over the line then block me. Catweasel and the likes of premie trolls, sure they disrupt threads but, they are so good at showing the true colors of Maharaji and everything that Knowledge was and has become. The likes of R2 and a few most recent trolls makes CW look sane. Let them post away. Everyone knows after reading just the most rudimentary of threads that this sucker, the troll, the premie is one sick cookie. They damn themselves. Besides the trolling has been somewhat subdued compared to what it once was. Tonette

Subject: I think you may misunderstand From: JHB To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 14:05:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Firstly, I can't block anyone from anywhere - I'm just another poster here (OK I have the password for archiving, but I would only use it for any other purpoase in dire emergencies). Secondly, I never tried to tell anyone who they should talk to or what they should say, and there's nothing in my post that as far as I can see that even implies that. I said be aware, that, in my opinion, there are premies with a clear agenda of disrupting the discussion of the truth about Maharaji, and they will use ex-premies where they can to achieve this. Let us not be used. John.

Subject: What's my agenda, categorize me, your take From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 11:18:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this a hobby to me? Maybe, kinda, mostly it's fun and almost always interesting. Do I read here and post everyday? No. Is this a social group for me? Nope, have yet to meet an ex or a premie who posts here in real life. Do I have strong emotions? I'm a woman for pete's sake, what? You want me to change my DNA? I don't read other ex-premie nor other premie forums. What you say is probably true. I have looked at LG on three occassions. The dialogue in the forum was so convoluted only a person under the influence of a cult would be able to understand it. And the participants from what I could discrern, Mili, Carlos, Isabella, to name a few, shunned away from any posts that required more than three sentances for a reply. So, yes, I misunderstood the jist of your thread. I know some premies who post here do have an agenda. Catweasel has been doing it since he got his ISP. And new people who are discovering this forum and other forums should be well aware of the agenda under which the likes of Catweasel and those like him operate. The posts either disrupt, insult, hurt, highjack and never give their real identity. Your point is well taken. Do you think I will consider this fact when one of them steps in here and pisses me off? Will I post differently to them in order to maintain a favorable image of ex's or this forum? Nope. Like I said, I'll post anything I damn well please. May I ask you to tell me what you think are the recent trends on this forum and others? And I know you cannot block me. I think only Pat and Gerry can. I am not being hostile to you. I really hate this venue of communication. I just read thru what I wrote. Please don't take it that way. Stay warm, CW hasn't mailed me my Amaroo tickets yet, Did you get yours? Tonette

Subject: Re: I think you may misunderstand From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:20:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I never tried to tell anyone who they should talk to or what they should say.'' That is certainly what some people have accused me of doing and the fact is that I can't deny it. I am loud, arrogant and opinionated BUT I don't expect people to think that what I say is some sort of official pronouncement of forum policy. It's just my opinion. It's simply politics. That means I say what I think and you refute it just as vigorously. Just because I'm an assistant FA does not mean that I will stop voicing my opinions. The only control anyone can exert on the forums is through the influence of reasoning and accumulated credibilty. I didn't agree with someone's idea of publicity and said so. So argue with me about it but if I think I'm right I won't back down. I don't like certain people and say so. All of a sudden I'm a nasty person because I haven't joined the Friends of Catweasel Coven. As Tonette said: she will post anything she wants. Me too. And I'll take the consequences. However I'm not here primarily to socialize (that's fun but not my main agenda) but to share my ongoing journey out of the cult with others. I've benefitted from other exes' writing and some have enjoyed mine. I also have a debt. EPO and certain old-time exes helped free me from the cult. I know that I owe you guys something. EPO and the forums have pretty much ended Rawat's career in the west. I hope I've contributed a little to that. I'm not out for revenge but to help inform those in the cult whom I know to be decent people and the best way I know how to do that is to not jeopardise the credibilty of EPO and its respected pioneers. That's why I will criticise silly schemes to harm Rawat and premies or the equally silly game of being friendly with anonymous cult apologists. Nor do I like to see some people bringing their unfocussed rage to the task at hand. We have enough to be angry about at Rawat without then blaming him for every bit of unresolved existential angst and psychological problems that we have. But that is only my loud, arrogant opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

Subject: My personal view on group mindthink From: Jennifer To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 09:03:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, In my opinion, one of the most important things that premies can see about ex-premies (and ex-aspirants) is that we are individuals. We have differing opinions, we are social creatures, we have lives outside the cult that aren't always wrapped up in thinking about the cult, trying to bring down the cult, etc. While I think it's important that people see the truth about Maharaji (and that more people don't join his band of merry men), I'm not EVER going to let that or any other purpose stop me from thinking about things for myself or from forming my own opinions about people. I'll talk to whomever I please and I will say what I want. I have no interest in any type of 'group mind think'--not even for the sake of ex-premiedom. Group mind think is very thing that will discredit the forums. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, Jennifer

Subject: This old internet technology From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 07:51:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Much of the ''exing'' is going on offline. I would even be so bold as to say that most of it was. The people who read and post here are but a tiny fraction of the whole of premiedom, whether ex or pro. A friend of mine who is a premie, got a print-out of a certain old ex-premie site (not ex-premie.org) which has been passed around many of the premies in his area (and it's a big area - a whole country of leeks). The pen is mightier than the sword and the people who come here to try to disrupt things are just pissing in the wind, as they say. The old ways still work; paper and printers and postage stamps. I see no trolls there - just a clapped out postal service but things still get through, especially by registered post. And that incredible device of the modern age, the electric voice telephone system, still works too!

Subject: Good points, Dave! [nt] From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:00:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yarvo Mine Fuhrer! From: ()) SPIN()) To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:13:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nah ,youv'e got it wrong.A coupla nasty pricks keep dissing everyone bar their gang.So people leave and enjoy a different experience. Yep Lifes Great!

Subject: It's ''Jawohl'', mein pussy From: PatC To: ()) SPIN()) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:17:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: St John of Latvia was just giving us his Sunday sermon a day early but that doesn't mean he isn't right.

Subject: Hey, it's Sunday here! From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 05:26:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in Australia:-)

Subject: Oh ,Thanks Pat, I haven't attended a rally since From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:51:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nuremberg(Oh Oh wrong spelling!) It means he is allscrewed up with conspiracy theories!:)

Subject: Cat, will you do one thing for me? From: cq To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:56:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: either shit or leave the pot. www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/toilettrainedcat.jpg

Subject: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:27:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Words extracted from Maharaji's Satsang by telephone, Malibu, May 8, 1978. Printed in 'Divine Times' Volume 7, Number 4, June/July 1978 'Guru Puja Special'. These comprehensive extracts neatly encapsulate the method of how Maharaji draws his audience in with simple timeless questions and then, without a blink, moves on to claim his divinity and how he provides the solutions to all these questions - even claims that he is the solution. How he manages to intertwine ourselves with him. Truly remarkable mindf**k games. It is easy to understand why instructions were given for all this stuff to be destroyed. Don't miss the bits about Maharaji's definitions of sin and suicide! Incredible! Anyway read on - if you dare. This is from the man's own mouth. .... The most important thing is, what do we get from it? What is the point? What do we actually gain from satsang, service and meditation? Where does that lead us? Where does that take us? .... And yet I remember when we were on vacation recently. We were just on the beach. And for Hansi we would make the tunnels and castle and everything. And I was just playing in the sand. I just took a fistful of sand ... I took it and dropped it back on the beach and I said - 'I just changed the whole universe; the whole structure of the universe. Universe is not going to be the same again.' And Marolyn was right next to me and she said, 'Oh yeah, but that's always happening.' .... And yet, just as that one grain of sand has the capacity, just as that one grain of sand has the capability of changing the structure of the entire universe, we have some significance, too. There is significance attached to us, too, as to why are we in this Earth. Why we are in this world? Why are we here? Why are we present? Why are we breathing? .... The way it is, it really doesn't matter. If you change a speck of sand or something like that, it just doesn't matter, because there is such an enormous universe that by changing one grain of sand, it just wouldn't affect it. And yet, premies, why are we here? .... And, I mean, why do we get a pleasure, why do we get so much bliss, why do we get a certain incredible feeling inside of us when we fulfil that purpose? And the reason, the sole reason behind it is because that's what our aim is. That is coming home. That is what we really desire. That's what we really want. And that's what's getting fulfilled. And when that fulfilment happens in our lives, everything gets fulfilled, everything gets quenched. All the thirst gets quenched. ... Because it's two things, and there is no other broker that can come in the middle. There's you and there is that Knowledge. There's you and there is that perfection. There are all these scriptures and there are all these things and that's just incredible, that's just great, that's all fantastic. But when it comes down to that search, when it comes down to that Peace, it's you and that Truth, it's you and that Knowledge. And we have to come to the right source, and we have to realize the right source, and fiddle for the rest of our lives trying to find out what the right source really is, going from book to book. ... And Knowledge is the same way. the experience that we want is the same way. Because as soon as that experience manifests in our life, we know. And of course, we're constantly backed up by mind, battled by mind. The mind keeps saying, 'No, this is not it. This is not it. This is not it. This is not it.' That, of course, doesn't change the fact. And only our commitment, only our dedication to what we really want, is through Guru Maharaj Ji, is through that Master ... Because, he has that key! He doesn't even have the key; let's put in this way: He has the solution. He has what we want. Because in him lies the solution. He is the solution. ... Our body is finite. Something within this body is infinite. And if we join those two things, if we make that one connection ... Because that we are trying to reach, what we are trying get to, is that most spectacular experience. And that experience is always there because it's infinite! And we can always achieve it. We can always be there, by going to Guru Maharaj Ji, by going to the Perfect Master. Because Perfect Master not only teaches us perfectness - and that is why he is Perfect Master- but he has the key. And not only does he have the key, but that answer, that solution, that experience, lies within him. Because he is that experience. And by approaching that Master, then he unfolds, he unites yourself, that individual, that one jiva, that one soul, to himself, and thus bridges the most, most incredible barrier, crossing the most wide, most outrageous, most violent stream of all between us, crossing all factors of time, life, death, anything that's finite - crossing all factors - and bringing us into perfect harmony and perfect unity. ... Because when in the presence of Guru Maharaj Ji, when in that beautiful, beautiful presence of Guru Maharaj Ji ... Because there is the solution. There is the answer. And we get attracted by that. We get directed by that, It's like a magnet. And again, it's a very beautiful experience in our life hat we have been granted, again, by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, that we have been granted that experience of him! ... And it's just like, what's our true nature? So I mean, of course it's on a very basic level, the whole example. But it's quite obvious that only by Knowledge - and then, not even that - only by Guru Maharaji Ji's Grace, can we really understand who we really are, can we really have our true identity, can we really experience ourself, can we go beyond the barriers of good and bad, can we go beyond the barriers of right and wrong, can we go beyond the barrier of all time, and cross all the finite and merge with what's infinite. And that's only possible by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace. It's just like our love for our Guru Maharaj Ji can never, can never, cease to exist. If there is a definition ....Okay, this is a little harsh way to put it. But I'll put it: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. Because without Guru Maharaj Ji - the saints have said, there was this whole world and there was everything, but nothing was there. And is they would have lived in that fantasy of 'Oh everything is there: everything is okay,' they would have never understood that they're not living in anything, that all the factors are so small, all the factors are so ridiculous. And when Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and really shows then that Love, shows then true Love, shows them themselves .... Because, who are we before Guru Maharaj Ji? What are we until we have understood who we really are? And so if we haven't understood who we really are, and that there is no definition that applies, when we understand who we are, then we go beyond all understanding. Then we merge with that. Being that makes us who we are, that gives us that feeling, that gives us that feeling f understanding, that gives us that experience of Love, that gives us that experience of Knowledge, that gives us the experience of happiness. And just how much can we love Guru Maharaj Ji? How much can we dedicate to Guru Maharaj Ji? How much can we become with Guru Maharaj Ji? I don't think ever anybody who has realized Guru Maharaj Ji, who has ever put a limit on it. Because to do that would be another sin. Because it's an ever-flowing experience. You never want to stop. You just want to keep on going with it. And by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, every second, every moment, every inch of the way, things keep manifesting and manifesting and manifesting. And when we let go to that Guru Maharaj Ji, when we let go and surrender ourselves ... Because who are we? Before that we were nothing. After that we are nothing. But we become one when we accomplish the purpose of why we are really here in this world. ... And if we forget who we really are, if we let go of Guru Maharaj Ji and really forget who we really are in the true sense of the word, then that's almost like committing suicide, that's almost like dying. And Guru Maaraj Ji's compassion is there. Guru Maharaj Ji's mercy is there for us, to take forever and ever and ever. And that's where we have to be. Because that's where the experience is. What I talk about is not a theory. It's not some homemade theory of mine. But this is the true experience. When we experience it, all concepts go away. .... phew! And I use to believe all this shit?! Op

Subject: M's Lies/1978 From: Joe To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:31:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think documenting all of the many threats Maharaji spewed at us over many years, about the calamities that would happen if you stopped practicing knowledge, and stopped devoting to him, are extremely important, because they reveal what a big lie Maharaji is putting out these days about "if you don't like it, then leave it, etc." Also, I can actually remember listening to that very satsang via 'phone feed' in the Chicago ashram in 1978. The thing I distinctly remember is Maharaji telling us about Marolyn saying that the universe was always changing. 1978 was in the midst of the dark, devotional period, hence the heavy 'surrender or die' stuff. It actually got WORSE for about 5 years after that. Do any of you remember Maharaji saying that anybody who made it through 1978 would be with him forever? Remember that? Remember the 1978 Festivals? Holi Festival in Miami in about Aprril, Guru Puja in Tucson in June or July, and the first big Hans Jayanti Festival in the Kissimee swamp in November.

Subject: Re: M's Lies/1978 From: JHB To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 18:06:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I have all the tapes from the second Kissimmee festival, but they're in England. I reckon we can put together a collage of threats from Maharaji that would scare the most committed ex-premie back to his arti tray for a second or two. I just have to arrange access to the tapes. EV monitors, the tapes are at the Latvian Club in London. John.

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: Jennifer To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 10:26:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'And if we forget who we really are, if we let go of Guru Maharaj Ji and really forget who we really are in the true sense of the word, then that's almost like committing suicide, that's almost like dying.' This really makes me sick, people.

Subject: EV's archives just updated From: Jean-Michel To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 04:38:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the document. I still have huge piles of documents to process ...... and F7 'best of' section to update ! M's may 8th satsang by telephone www.ex-premie.org/papers/may8th1978.htm

Subject: This is just great! JM? From: Jim To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 14:31:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How in the world can premies and Maharaji keep a straight face when they say that Maharaji never laid a guilt trip on people for even thinking of walking? I mean, this here: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. says it all. Good work, Opie!

Subject: Re: This is just great! JM? From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:18:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Jim, yes says it all. Kept us spellbound for a good part of a century. Talk about 'rotting vegetables' - this one, this one about sin, really takes the cake! Oh how I was so blind! Come on Premies - wake up! Don't you see how destructive Maharajism is? Life really is great once you throw off the shackles that bind you, the shackles that are an illusion. You owe it to yourselves ......... Unbind yourselves. from my heart with love Opie

Subject: Highlights that mark him out for me ... From: cq To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:08:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'And, I mean, why do we get a pleasure, why do we get so much bliss, why do we get a certain incredible feeling inside of us when we fulfil that purpose? And the reason, the sole reason behind it is because that's what our aim is. That is coming home. That is what we really desire. That's what we really want. And that's what's getting fulfilled. And when that fulfilment happens in our lives, everything gets fulfilled, everything gets quenched. All the thirst gets quenched. ... Because it's two things, and there is no other broker that can come in the middle. There's you and there is that Knowledge. There's you and there is that perfection. ... what we are trying get to, is that most spectacular experience. And that experience is always there because it's infinite! And we can always achieve it. We can always be there, by going to Guru Maharaj Ji, by going to the Perfect Master. Because Perfect Master not only teaches us perfectness - and that is why he is Perfect Master- but he has the key. And not only does he have the key, but that answer, that solution, that experience, lies within him. Because he is that experience. ... It's just like our love for our Guru Maharaj Ji can never, can never, cease to exist. ... If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. ' And this is from the selfsame guy who claims he never said he was God???? Well, which is it to be? He was lying then, or he's lying now?

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: omie To: Opie Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:22:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: great stuff there..we want mo'.....

Subject: Re: Maharaji May 8th, 1978 From: PatD To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 20:47:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Opie,one forgets. That seems coherent to me in comparison with later words of wisdom. He was 20 then,on a roll with his mixture of Primary School Catholic ideas(he went to one,remember),his old man's 'secret knowledge',& his own upbringing as God incarnate. So why did he bottle out later on....deny all that.It can only be that he didn't have what it takes to be the founder of a religion,get crucified with tax(sorry,old pun),stand up for de troof in the face of the world,usher in the Satyuga. I don't know about you,but what locked me into a suspension of rationality was the trick of the meditation. A couple of yrs after I got k I met an elderly man who'd been a regular soldier(Durham Light Infantry)in India in the 30's. He laughed like a drain on receiving 'satsang',& told loads of stories about how you could stick a knife into yourself & get away with it....a miracle. Tape a cockroach to an infant's forehead...you've got a defective to whom the pious will give alms...stuff like that. Fool that I was I didn't get his point. I can't remember your name old man,but you were right & I was wrong.

Subject: By His Grace From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 19:17:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks OP. Yeah you read that and then imagine Maharaji swerving down the street in a drunken rage with Marolyn and the kids in the back.

Subject: Bob Mishler recordings From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:13:09 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I have today received recordings of the end of the radio interview with Bob Mishler that is missing from the EPO record, and a phone call from two recently deprogrammed premies to Mishler. In the latter, he expands on his time with Maharaji while he was President of DLM. I would like to make contact with the ex-premies who made the tape, to get permission to publish a transcript. If I am unable to do so, then I will publish (as no personal details of the ex-premies are mentioned). The thing that struck me listening to the tape is how clear Mishler was in his understanding at that time. I compared it with how shallow my own thinking was at the time. He said he felt it was his duty to speak out about what he knew, as his silence would mean complicity with Maharaji's ongoing deception. It was well before the age of the internet, and so he used the radio, and was very accomodating to the ex-premies who phoned him. He said he had presented a proposal for a book to several publishers, but only received rejection notices. I'll transcribe the tape in due course, but if anyone wants a copy, let me know. John.

Subject: Re: Bob Mishler recordings From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:43:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: any clue as to the location of any Mishler relatives? They may have as much of the book as was completed.

Subject: the cheque's in the post From: cq To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:12:32 (EST) Email Address: quartus@postmaster.co.uk Message: ... has been for several days (honest!) Yes, I'd like a copy (and will be happy to distribute to other UK exes). Ciaio 4 now

Subject: Talk about luck! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:19:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're very lucky people we are aren`t we very lucky people, very very lucky people. Yesterday evening I left my home and went to visit an old and very dear friend, I told him M. may come to Europe, told him about Amaroo.....how I want to go there for the first time, told him about Miami and M. singing. Told him really all the wonders of a life full of magic. I even told him about the bee waggling its derrierè to tell the other bees were the honey is. Luck? No, Grace, yes, privilege, yes, but luck......? there was a broadcast in Europe yesterday evening ....Taiwan....it`s also on video..the number is 1307, well in Austria it is, M. speaking in Kaohsiung on May 2nd 2001. I can`t quote M on this literally but he said something like, 'It wasn`t luck that made me come to Knowledge, it was the day I listened to my heart........' something like that.....I feel I`m a lucky person, I find things, people give me presents of food because I look so hungry, but if it was my heart which brought me to knowledge then why am I buying lottery tickets for the fare to Amaroo? David David Coleman Vienna, Austria

Subject: Re: Talk about luck! From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:30:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's buying lottery tickets for his fare to Amaroo because he hasn't got enough faith in Maharaji's luck. Oh dear.

Subject: Is this part a joke, do you think? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:48:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel I`m a lucky person, I find things, people give me presents of food because I look so hungry I just picture some homeless guy scavenging for food and thanking his guru for making his life so wonderful.

Subject: Re: Talk about luck! From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:40:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and also because he hasn't realised that the ones who run the Lottery make money out of him. Just like ... (PPSR?)

Subject: soul v humanity From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:18:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On a thread below, R2 said this: 'From what I’ve seen there is one fundamental difference between ex-premies and premies that may be what drives one to their respective camps. Ex-premies put a priority on saving humanity, whereas premies’ priority is saving their own soul. The upshot of that is, ex-premies look for leadership that addresses the needs of humanity, and premies look for a leader who addresses the need of their soul. Simple difference but could explain a lot.' I thought this was so telling. I wonder why he thinks the needs of the soul and the needs of humanity should be somehow mutually exclusive? I think herein lies the rub. Somehow, in one's progress through the years as a premie, the needs of humanity subtly seem to recede into the distance. When I first received Knowledge in 1972, a huge part of it for me was Maharaji's apparently sincere desire to bring the whole world to peace via Knowledge. Maharaji himself spoke often of wanting to bring peace to the world. How did we come from that to a place where a premie can say what R2 said above, and not think that something has gone wrong somewhere? I'm beginning to think that Maharaji's current emphasis actually numbs premies to the significance of the needs of anyone but themselves. R2 calls it the soul, but is it really? Or is it a narcissistic need to feel safe, loved (by an imaginary friend) and spiritually superior? To be honest, the thought that anyone can think the needs of their own soul take precedence over the needs of humanity makes me feel quite queasy. Just how far from reality have premies actually come? With love, Livia If you are there, R2, can you please explain?

Subject: Yes, absolutely From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 14:50:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I think that when the cult was in its expansive years, premies did indeed feel some sort of beatific, utopian magnaminity for all sentient beings. But that was years ago and now M and his cult are in a very, very defensive position. They can't afford to reach out too much because there are too many things -- like facts -- that bite in the night. Indeed, it must be difficult for some premies who still believe the secret of happiness lies in listening to your breath and praying to the living perfect master. I bet they'd like to be able to reach out but they can't. Conveniently, of course, Maharaji's shaped their priorities so it all kind of fits together. I mean, look at that quote from '78 Opie found: If there is a definition of sin - if there is one - then it definitely applies to the place of ever leaving that Love, of ever forgetting that Love, of Guru Maharaj Ji. We used to really go after wavering and even exitted premies because the stakes -- life in hell, anyone? -- were so high. Now, though, the cult can't afford to risk honest interaction. I'm sure that the moment someone even hints at leaving, the cult goes into defensive mode and doesn't want to hear from the guy. Now, Maharaji's just as happy to say 'bye, no muss, no fuss, good riddance, kind of thing. In that climate of paranoia and avoidance, there isn't a whole lot of room for heartfelt outreach.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:45:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2 might claim that 'premies look for a leader who addresses the need of their soul', and claim that ex-premies put a priority on saving humanity, but he distorts the facts: Fact #1 - M claimed (on his website) that he 'never wanted to be leader, and never was one'. This is an obvious lie, witnessed by: Fact #2 - he said this: 'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in the world'. Which makes R2's observations obvious for what they are, namely evident revisionism. Click here for what M said before his attempts at revisionism set in www.ex-premie.org/papers/claims.htm www.ex-premie.org/papers/swear3.jpg

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:14:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On a practical level this translates into PWKs who cannot propagate K because they are so closed off to other people. I said that at several local meetings and basically caused shudders. If the revisionism hasn't crept up on you slowly but you've taken a break from premiedom, as I did, and then return, it is so obvious that the openness, frankness of the early days is gone. For those current PWKs who have any sort of self-respect it seems like they are carrying some bitter-sweet secret. The other kind - the ones who are only in it for themselves and You Know Who - laugh and joke and give people the creeps with their smugness and fake braggadoccio.

Subject: Good observation, Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 19:24:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first read R2's comment that ex's are/were into saving humanity and premies were into saving their soul, I agreed that I am/was into trying to do what's best for humanity. Saving the world one person at a time was the huge hook for myself and others. Peace on Earth Begins Within You was the slogan we put on posters then. Donner comments eloquently on this point in Ulf's Old Dreams thread below. Your take on R2's comment is astute indeed. It is precisely the top-down narcissism at the heart of M&Kism that numbs the premie to others' needs and even his/her own needs. Good point Livia. An example: I recall being at Long Beach during my born-again PWK days and actually avoided interacting with a certain old friend because I didn't want them to taint 'my precious experience'. Later I hated what I'd done. I called him last week and expressed my friendship and love. Man, did that feel good and right. Richard, saving my soul and humanity one friend at a time

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:25:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My guess is that what R2 means, when he talks about saving his own soul, is saving himself from the heartbreak of acknowledging the facts, ie that Maharaji is a stage show put on by Mr Rawat who doesn't really care about R2 at all. Or perhaps he's a more ol fashioned kinda guy, and believes that he will go to hell for all eternity if he leaves the lotus feet. Whatever, perhaps it would do him good to remember that one thing he certainly is, is a member of humanity.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: R2 To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:14:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It’s really quite simple. God, assuming you believe in such a being, clearly doesn’t need me, or you to save humanity. I mean, if there is someone powerful enough to give me life, then he is powerful enough to save humanity should he so choose. I therefore do not see my role on earth as one of saving humanity. I do see my life as a gift that was given to me and no one else. No part of it was given to this thing called 'humanity'. So my first obligation is to discover and appreciate the value of this gift. And as luck would have it, when I do feel appreciation for this gift, it’s amazing how much I feel for the rest of humanity. Does that translate into feeding the hungry, or fighting the Taliban? Well, in my case, no. But that’s not to rule anything out when you feel genuine compassion. Krishna said, “Go ahead and fight, they are already dead”, when Arjun was feeling compassion for his enemies. Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead”, when talking about the dying. Jesus also said, “You will always have the poor but you will only have me for a little while”. Goes against the grain of humanistic logic doesn’t it? But there it is. But on the other hand, in Buddhism there is the concept of Bodhisatva. A Bodhisatva is a person who, having taken it upon themselves to become enlightened, in turn help other beings on the path towards enlightenment. So what does all this say with respect to priority? Well, I think it says the greatest good is to know truth, self, or whatever you want to call it. All the “humanitarian” endeavors come second. So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji.

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 15:43:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An interesting concept, Richard, but that's what it is, a concept. And I'm afraid you got it straight from the horse's mouth, not from your own heart, whatever you say. I know this, because it's exactly what all the premies say. I would have said exactly the same thing myself some years ago. 'Fraid it's flawed, though. I think we can safely assume that as you mention Jesus and Krishna, you assume Maharaji to be of the same ilk. Please don't deny it with some spin, because it's you who brought up the names of Jesus and Krishna in a discussion about Maharaji and Knowledge. One thing worries me, though. If Knowledge really is the Knowledge of God, where are the divine values in the lives of premies? Where is the selfless love? Where is the integrity? Where is the kindness? Because if those qualities are generally absent from the lives of premies, and from what I've seen, especially lately, they are most certainly generally absent, then what exactly is the point of this Knowledge of the Self? Really? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: soul v humanity From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:14:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An interesting concept, Richard, but that's what it is, a concept. And I'm afraid you got it straight from the horse's mouth, not from your own heart, whatever you say. I know this, because it's exactly what all the premies say. I would have said exactly the same thing myself some years ago. Of course it’s a concept Livia. That’s about all we can share in this medium. Tell me you do any better! I’ll be first to say that as a premie my thinking has been influenced by Maharaji. Does that justify outright rejecting an idea because of that? If you do that, you are as bad as someone who accepts it for the same reason. Any idea -- his, mine, or yours -- should hold up on its own merit. 'Fraid it's flawed, though. I think we can safely assume that as you mention Jesus and Krishna, you assume Maharaji to be of the same ilk. Please don't deny it with some spin, because it's you who brought up the names of Jesus and Krishna in a discussion about Maharaji and Knowledge. Of course I believe he’s of the same ilk. Same timeless thirst to know, and a Knowledge that satisfies that thirst. Pretty powerful stuff. One thing worries me, though. If Knowledge really is the Knowledge of God, where are the divine values in the lives of premies? Where is the selfless love? Where is the integrity? Where is the kindness? Because if those qualities are generally absent from the lives of premies, and from what I've seen, especially lately, they are most certainly generally absent, then what exactly is the point of this Knowledge of the Self? Really? This always gets me. Typical complaints about premies’ lack of meeting some conceptual expectation of what someone who has experienced Knowledge should be like. Of course I cannot comment on you’ve seen lately. I suspect to some degree that during this time you are seeing negative because you are looking for negative. Another explanation is you may have just surrounded yourself with a real bunch of losers. For me all I know is what I see, and the extent of that is only what I see within myself. And what I see is a well of love and kindness that has been nurtured by turning within and practicing K. The point therefore is no more than for me to drink from that well, and thereby grow the only real wealth I‘ll ever have. Apart from that, if I get to witness selflessness and kindness manifesting in this day and age, I consider myself lucky.

Subject: this thing called Humanity From: Lesley To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 03:04:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: It’s really quite simple. God, assuming you believe in such a being, clearly doesn’t need me, or you to save humanity. I mean, if there is someone powerful enough to give me life, then he is powerful enough to save humanity should he so choose. I therefore do not see my role on earth as one of saving humanity. I do see my life as a gift that was given to me and no one else. No part of it was given to this thing called 'humanity'. So my first obligation is to discover and appreciate the value of this gift. And as luck would have it, when I do feel appreciation for this gift, it’s amazing how much I feel for the rest of humanity. Does that translate into feeding the hungry, or fighting the Taliban? Well, in my case, no. But that’s not to rule anything out when you feel genuine compassion. Me: Well, no I don't believe in God. I put him in the same basket as Santa Claus, I believed in his existence at one time, basically because I was told he existed, now I have come to the conclusion that it is yet another, er, story. This 'thing' called humanity??? Humanity, as I understand it, is a collective noun to describe all the members of the primate species, homo sapiens. And, I guess, if you are going to describe your life as a gift, then you are going to have to thank your parents! Um, from my point of view, feeling feelings, in a generalised sort of way, however nice they are, is a bit of a dead end street. As a premie, I attempted to make it more real by 'participating', and that's when the crunch came. By actively getting involved, rather than just sending money, I found my idealism, and along with it, my ignorant bliss, getting crunched by the brutish reality of 'Maharaji's World'. By idealism, I mean I thought attributes like honesty, caring, integrity, intelligence, not to mention gentleness or commonsense would be valued. Instead, I found a particularly toxic and dedicated microcosm of the real world, centred around Mr Rawat. You: Krishna said, 'Go ahead and fight, they are already dead', when Arjun was feeling compassion for his enemies. Jesus said, 'Let the dead bury the dead', when talking about the dying. Jesus also said, 'You will always have the poor but you will only have me for a little while'. Goes against the grain of humanistic logic doesn’t it? But there it is. But on the other hand, in Buddhism there is the concept of Bodhisatva. A Bodhisatva is a person who, having taken it upon themselves to become enlightened, in turn help other beings on the path towards enlightenment. Me: Well, I figured I'd had a good look at a living master, and, not finding any reason to think to the contrary, have lumped dead ones in the same basket. You: So what does all this say with respect to priority? Well, I think it says the greatest good is to know truth, self, or whatever you want to call it. All the 'humanitarian' endeavors come second. So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. Me: I did, I admit, really enjoy being mainstream for the few short weeks or months that I was out of the cult, but had not yet thought my way through the god, jesus issue. Alas, it did not last. Funnily enough, when I took up meditating it was largely considered navel gazing and a waste of time, now that I have stopped, it is gaining a lot of popularity! Look, this 'knowledge of the self' thing is really a bit of a con. For instance, you probably have yourself divided up into a heart and a mind. I question that arbitrary division, in fact, I think it is a harmful delusion. To me, realising that it is a fake distinction is real self knowledge, and useful. Working out that if I move back from something I am working on, my fingers get extra information from the cross referencing my brain must be doing on the two different perspectives is, to me, self knowledge, and most useful. Recognising that many of my needs can only be fulfilled by other people is self knowledge, and vital. Just for the hell of it, I am going to quote Maharaji to you: (roughly) 'There is no point in cutting the branch you are sitting on'. I think he was referring to Earth, and he has a point. In this instance, I am referring to the individual human being, a member of humanity.

Subject: An insidious bit of programming From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 23:16:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So here’s the nub of how this point impacts this discussion. In the politically correct milieu of the day, humanism is believed to be of a higher importance in the absolute scheme of things than knowing the self, God, whatever. As a matter of fact holding as the highest virtue the Knowledge of Self is entirely adverse to current popular opinion. Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. If 'humanism', as you call it, is merely a 'politically correct' fad, what is the basis for your morality? Or don't you have any? Can anything you do in the world be wrong if your cult leader, sorry, guru, ask you to do it? What if he merely condones it after the fact? What if he changes his mind? Does your act drift back and forth over the line of moral and immoral on his whim? And tell me, then, R2, what do you say about others who, every bit as sincerely as you, think they're following the one who's above mere worldy morality but they really aren't? The Japanese cult members who killed all those people with sarin gas in the Tokyo subway, if they sincerely believed that their guru was above right and wrong are they morally at fault just because they -- unlike you, of course (trying to keep a straight face here) -- got hoodwinked by a fraud? And what about Abraham? Should he have listened to the voice and killed his son? What if he trusted the first voice as being God's but thought the second one, that called of the hit, was Satan? Should he be forgiven for getting it wrong or is he, alternatively, a very, very screwed up person, dangerous to himself and the rest of us because of his religious fanaticism (unlike you, of course). And what about Andrea Yates? Hey, how about bin Laden? Are you so sure that your guru's the real thing and theirs not? How about Satpal? Do you really know? But back to M, was it not immoral for him to protect Fakiranand after he tried to kill Pat Haley? Was it immoral for him to lie to the press about 'looking into' the situation? I take it you think M is not subject to any moral scrutiny. Is that without limit? Does the same standard apply to his family? Say he and his son both shoplift one day (it happens, even in Malibu -- maybe just a chocolate bar ...). Was it okay for M to steal but not his kid? Finally, R2, do you have any doubt whatsoever that any reasonable person hearing you talk like this would have no hesitation finding that you're a fanatical cult member?

Subject: Programming is it??? From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 01:56:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If 'humanism', as you call it, is merely a 'politically correct' fad, what is the basis for your morality? Or don't you have any? Odd question. The basis for true morality is in awareness. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. Experience rooted in awareness is a far greater basis for morality than any philosophy or religion. Can anything you do in the world be wrong if your cult leader, sorry, guru, ask you to do it? What if he merely condones it after the fact? What if he changes his mind? Does your act drift back and forth over the line of moral and immoral on his whim? Stupid line of dialog Jim. The scenario you paint is hypothetical and too far-fetched to comment on. And tell me, then, R2, what do you say about others who, every bit as sincerely as you, think they're following the one who's above mere worldy morality but they really aren't? The Japanese cult members who killed all those people with sarin gas in the Tokyo subway, if they sincerely believed that their guru was above right and wrong are they morally at fault just because they -- unlike you, of course (trying to keep a straight face here) -- got hoodwinked by a fraud? No known cases I know of a premie planting sarin gas bombs in the subway. Again, a stupid line of dialog. And what about Abraham? Should he have listened to the voice and killed his son? What if he trusted the first voice as being God's but thought the second one, that called of the hit, was Satan? Should he be forgiven for getting it wrong or is he, alternatively, a very, very screwed up person, dangerous to himself and the rest of us because of his religious fanaticism (unlike you, of course). I just don’t know much about Satin Jim. You? But back to M, was it not immoral for him to protect Fakiranand after he tried to kill Pat Haley? Was it immoral for him to lie to the press about 'looking into' the situation? What makes you think he didn’t “look into the situation”? Are you implying from your other examples that M was behind Fakiranand’s actions? I take it you think M is not subject to any moral scrutiny. You have the right to scrutinize him however you want Jim. And you will no doubt use that scrutiny to paint whatever picture suits your own bias. It may not be an accurate picture, but I’m not about to try and convince you otherwise. I don’t have much of a need to. Finally, R2, do you have any doubt whatsoever that any reasonable person hearing you talk like this would have no hesitation finding that you're a fanatical cult member? Are you talking about a reasonable “humanistic” person? That’s an easy one to predict. Here’s one for you. Do you have any doubt that if 90% of the people who read your drivel ever had the misfortune of getting to know you they wouldn't think you’re a jerk?

Subject: If that's all you got, don't bother to post From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:28:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, Would you like to try again? I mean, like all of it? That was a completely useless post of yours. By the way, did you used to post here under another name?

Subject: Re: If that's all you got, don't bother to post From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:16:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, others got something out of that post Jim. Could it be you just didn't get what you wanted out of it, ie: to make a premie look like a fanatical idiot? I know you'll keep trying though. No I haven't posted under another name.

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 05:53:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The basis for true morality is in awareness. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. Experience rooted in awareness is a far greater basis for morality than any philosophy or religion. That's a good point, Richard, and I don't think anyone here would argue with it. An aware person sees when he has done something that is out of step with existence, and learns first hand about morality. I am assuming that you would consider Maharaji to be an aware person, particularly as in your post above, you confirm that you think him to be of the same ilk as Jesus and Krishna. That is because after all that’s said and done, there is right and wrong underlying the fabric of existence. So you presumably consider Maharaji to be an aware person, that right and wrong underlie the fabric of our existence, and that an aware person knows when they have done something out of step with existence and learns from it. How do you rationalise, then, that shortly after Pat Halley threw the custard pie, Maharaji was seen taking Fakiranand to one side and speaking in Hindi to him, and a few days later Fakiranand pretended to be about to give Halley Knowledge and then cracked his skull open? How do you rationalise that Jagdeo is still touring around under Maharaji's agya, having never been brought to justice? How do you rationalise that Maharaji has had short dalliances with premie women and disregarded them afterwards? One explanation is that you do not consider any of these as wrong. Another is that you consider Maharaji to be above right and wrong, but then by your reckoning, an aware person knows when he does wrong and learns from it. Another explanation is that you don't believe any of the above to be true. I guess from where you are standing, and from what you have said about awareness and morality, the best thing for you to do is disbelieve all the above accounts. Go right ahead, Richard. With regards, Livia

Subject: Way off, Livia From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:06:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, The 'facts' on which you base your assumptions aren't even close to the truth. I don't have the time to get into a laundry list but here's two: 1. Jagdeo isn't, and hasn't been, touring for a few years. You're flat-out wrong there. 2. I don't know of a solitary soul who was close to the 'action' at the time of the Fakirinand/Pie Man episode that believes Maharaji wanted/asked for what ensued to take place. Not one person. He said immediately after he was hit, 'I don't want anything to happen to that guy, he doesn't know what he's doing' and he was furious with Fakirinand after. I suggest you read OP's description of the events of the time in the Akashic Records deprtment of Spin Central as they were there. It's amazing to me that you and others believe this stuff and so much else about Maharaji without question. You must want to because, if you examine it closely, it all comes from the same couple of people, with others repeating bits of heavily embellished detritus like parrots. I'm sticking with what I've seen for myself and it's quite different. have a lovely evening, Harry

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 13:42:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you presumably consider Maharaji to be an aware person, that right and wrong underlie the fabric of our existence, and that an aware person knows when they have done something out of step with existence and learns from it. How do you rationalise, then, that shortly after Pat Halley threw the custard pie, Maharaji was seen taking Fakiranand to one side and speaking in Hindi to him, and a few days later Fakiranand pretended to be about to give Halley Knowledge and then cracked his skull open? Livia, you wouldn’t be leaping to a conclusion based upon some third party’s biased observations would you? Your indictment here is extremely circumstantial. How do you rationalise that Jagdeo is still touring around under Maharaji's agya, having never been brought to justice? Again, what facts can you offer to validate your assertion he is “still touring around under Maharaji's agya”? If you are going on heresay and rumor, you should not jump to this conclusion. And if you still feel inclined to make the leap, I would guess you probably believe aliens are indeed among us and Elvis is still alive. How do you rationalise that Maharaji has had short dalliances with premie women and disregarded them afterwards? One explanation is that you do not consider any of these as wrong. I would like to hear from at least one premie women who he had liaisons with and disregarded. Just one. All we’ve heard from so far is third-party observers. And no, I do not consider him having trysts with premie women wrong. Nor do I consider it right. What anybody does in their bedroom is no business of mine, as what I do in mine is no business of anyone else. I can’t judge even the likes of Jimmy Swaggart, and I don’t. With Swaggart though, the biggest joke was how beholding to public opinion he was that he felt he had to parade his “remorse” in front of the cameras like he was doing penance to his maker. Another is that you consider Maharaji to be above right and wrong, but then by your reckoning, an aware person knows when he does wrong and learns from it. I am confident Maharaji is ruled by the same laws of existence as I am. I am sure if he has done anything wrong he knows about it before anyone. Livia, who are you to be so indignant about something the facts of which you know so little about? Do you feel you are some kind of divine instrument or something, and that God needs people like you to maintain his order? I guess from where you are standing, and from what you have said about awareness and morality, the best thing for you to do is disbelieve all the above accounts. Or the other possibility, as I’ve said before, is I just don’t care. What he has shown me stands the test of time, and outweighs my need to hold any moral high-ground.

Subject: Re: Programming is it??? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:59:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Thanks for that long response. I have a problem with one or two things you said, however. You seem to think that requiring a genuine master to hold to certain universably recognisable ethical standards is tantamount to 'holding the moral high-ground'. Where, then, do you draw the line? Is there indeed anything Maharaji could do that would cause you to question your perception of who he is? Or not? And if the answer is no, what could have happened to the faculty you presumably were born with, called discrimination? Or isn't it really necessary in Maharaji's world? You ask me to come up with substantial proof that the events I described above are true. If you really want me to, I'll do my level best. Do you want me to? Or how about about you coming up with the evidence that they're not true? However, I don't expect you'll be too concerned about any of it either way, because as you said, maybe you 'just don't care'. Let's forget, then, about that interesting and revealing but ultimately troublesome notion you had about right and wrong underlying the fabric of our existence. With regards, Livia

Subject: You shock me.....but I'm not surprised From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:35:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You ask me to come up with substantial proof that the events I described above are true. If you really want me to, I'll do my level best. Do you want me to? Or how about about you coming up with the evidence that they're not true? Livia, do you have any idea what integrity means, or do you just pay it lip service? You are so quick to point the finger at Maharaji for lacking the stuff, but here you are telling me that you have no solid basis for the damning accusations you are making. And to top it off, you’re saying it’s up to a premie disprove the accusations. Our justice system doesn’t work that way Livia. And do you have an idea of the negative impact you may have on people’s lives if indeed the tangent you are flying off on is off course? You’ll no doubt just say “sorry about that” and move on. You are a perfect example of how dishonest and unjust ex-premies become in order to rationalize their vendetta.

Subject: Addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 09:45:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified.' Thus spoke Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Maharaji's father and the 'Perfect Master' before him. Any comments? With regards, Livia

Subject: addendum not far off.... From: EV Spin Doctor To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:00:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now hold on there a minute...I think if we change a few words in shri hans' yog prakash, we can make master m look OK.... 'By their toys, you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self absorption, indicriminate love, attachment and lack of good judgement. He is one with stubbornness. He is not peaceful, close to anger, and treats his devotees unequally. At all times he is self absorbed in his holy form. He is without love and affection to most followers, except for a few busty blondes.....' He's not so bad after all, is he?

Subject: GREAT points+quotes, Liv.... From: La-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 10:17:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another dilemnna for the faithful premie to deal with, as you have so aptly pointed out Livia. On the one hand, Richard outlines in detail how experience coupled with awareness leads to a sense of morality. It then becomes quite another story to explain how maharaji, definitely a man of experience and awareness acording to Richard2, can lead such an immoral life. This immorality can be seen not only from looking at m's personal life, but simply by reading his past quotes compared with his present statements. The more he tries to squirm out of his lies, the deeper hole he digs himself into. And no one around him has the balls to tell him that, assuming they can even see it. All of this is 100% provable, however R2 doesn't seem to want to talk about that. BTW, the shri hans quote was priceless....should be diplayed on EPO somewhere next to some of m's shenanigans.... R2, care to comment?

Subject: Agree: GREAT, Liv.... From: Richard To: La-ex Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 11:03:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent comments. I quite enjoyed your mini-debate with R2 begun by Jim and others. I think R2 made a good effort at justifying his position but you countered very effectively. In the end, M and R2's line of reasoning/justification doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The quotes from Shri Maharaji says it all. Richard, Original Postie Recipe

Subject: Addendum From: R2 To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:19:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Philosophically speaking therefore, ex-premies are people who were once premies, who now align themselves with the current popular milieu, and from that fuel their opposition to Maharaji. I can add to this, maybe they were premies who always DID align themselves this way, but it took time for them to realize it (read, get real).

Subject: R2-How does m save ones soul? From: JIm S. To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 22:28:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2- OK, I see you've come back once again to tell us how you are 'saving your soul' first, by following maharaji,and 'good work' comes second. I don't have a problem with that, except for the fact that people like maharaji who tell you that 'saving the world', or getting involved with 'the issues' is a waste of time are simply deluded. We all stand on the shoulders of many, many people who have come before us to make the world a better place in many ways. The world has improved in so many ways from peoples efforts...it's strange to see someone who preaches the concept of 'gratitude' so easily dismiss so many of the great efforts by so many people to make the world a bettr place to live..... However, the real question I have for you R2 is this: Precisely, how does one save their soul by following maharaji? Can you elaborate on this? Is it the techniques? The discourses? Serving the master? And, does m say that he is 'saving peoples souls'? I'm not sure what he's advertising these days, do you? Can you please elaborate on this?

Subject: Re: R2-How does m save ones soul? From: R2 To: JIm S. Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim First your question regarding what constitutes being saved. Hmmmm. I don’t think I can put that into intellectual terms that make any sense. For me being saved is a feeling of being home, and a knowing from that that home is never far away. Being at home is being one. Complete, whole, no desire to go. The gratitude that comes with this feeling is incredibly uplifting, wholesome, and puts so much depth and meaning into life. That to me is being saved. Precisely, how does one save their soul by following maharaji? Can you elaborate on this? Is it the techniques? The discourses? Serving the master? Having it be real. Having your thirst to be home truly satisfied. Can the above things do that? Yes, in my experience.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 15:11:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Being at home is being one. Complete, whole, no desire to go. R2, you sound like some junkies I used to know. Just stay at home and nod out. Peace, brother.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: R2 To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 16:15:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're kidding, right? Well, just in case you're not I'll humor you. The home I was talking about isn’t a place you use to practice escaping from yourself. Rather, it IS yourself.

Subject: Re: R2-Are you sure? From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 16:48:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, please go home now. You are boring the kiddies to death.

Subject: Lifesavers Save,Maharaji Spends! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JIm S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:08:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lifesavers Save,Maharaji Spends! (nt) From: Bai Ji To: JIm S. Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 19:08:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Who's saving what and how? From: Jim S. To: Lesley Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 22:06:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I too noted R2's interesting perspective on premies vs. ex-premies in regards to what they are looking for in a leader. The exes are trying to save humanity, while the premies are trying to save their own souls. First of all, I don't think you can create these distinctions without running into all kinds of exceptions to the rule. To me, it just doesn't hold water. Furthermore, is mr. rawat really saving anyone's soul? And how is he doing it? Is it through the new auto-knowledge?....truth on a dvd or an i-mac? Listening to endless videos on the satellite dish that say the same old same old? Contributing money to support a lifestyle that most people would judge immoral? Not being able to question the master, but simply to accept his every word as a child? If we accept R2's premise that even though the premies may not be interested in saving the wrold, or humanity, they are saving their own souls....precisely how is that done? Specifically, how does knowledge and the master do that? The Christians and many other religions have precise definitions of how to 'save one's soul'. (And many of them do not create that distinction-many believe that the two go hand in hand, and that spiritual growth cannot go very far unless one IS involved with 'saving humanity'.) What is maharaji's, and why doesn't he advertise that he is doing that? As he says, 'Why be shy? Shout it from the rooftops!' I'm wondering if R2 could elaborate on: 1-How premies are saving their souls by following m. 2-Why m doesn't say that's what he is doing. 3-Are premies the only 'saved ones'?

Subject: The ultimate dichotomy-me or the world? From: Marianne To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 01:14:13 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: This is a wonderful and thought provoking thread, Livia, Richard, Lesley and Jim S. Each of your comments has added to its complexity. For me, the questions you have posed became the central quandries concerning my involvement with Captain Rawat and DLM/EV. I fell for the 'liberate myself, then I can liberate others' satsang that was the central focus of the cult in the early and mid '70's. The message, for the spiritually adventurous anti-war, alternative community hippies, made some sense. It meant that we would each be responsible for reaching a higher consciousness on our own, and then we would reach out to other people to help them find it -- from the lily white ashrams and cloistered environments in which we lived. What a sanctimonious bunch of crap that was! The first way we were supposed to realize God and then reach other people was the debacle of Millennium -- the holiest event in the history of humankind, according to Maharaji himself, and innumerable sycophants, who led us to the trough and made us drink. I guess I always believed that I had a responsibility to other people once I was on stable footing in my life. The suggestion that we only need care for ourselves -- realize peace inside -- in order to discharge any responsibilities for our fellow humankind is truly revolting. When DLM abandoned its commitment to bettering the lives of other people, whether they had knowledge or not, it abandoned its true commitment to humankind. It then spiraled off into an organization that existed for the gratification of a single person -- Captain Rawat. The day I realized that was the day I left the cult, and went to law school. Endless navel gazing, and personal assessments of inner peace, are no substitute for changing the actual conditions of people who live in poverty and struggle. Mariannee

Subject: Re: The ultimate dichotomy-me or the world? From: Pullaver To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:06:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When DLM abandoned its commitment to bettering the lives of other people, whether they had knowledge or not, it abandoned its true commitment to humankind. It then spiraled off into an organization that existed for the gratification of a single person -- Captain Rawat. The day I realized that was the day I left the cult, and went to law school. Endless navel gazing, and personal assessments of inner peace, are no substitute for changing the actual conditions of people who live in poverty and struggle. Hmmm. I don't believe that it was ever a stated purpose of Maharaji or DLM to help out regarding peoples' living conditions. There might have been a couple of spin-off thingies like Rennie Davis' World Health Organization, but I think that they were generally regarded as subtle prachar initiatives and a concerted PR effort to have Maharaji recognized as a humanitarian leader. At least, that was my take. Personally, I bought into the concept of bringing peace on earth one person at a time through receiving knowledge. Now that Marji has publically stated that his mission of spreading this Knowledge is completed I think we can all safely sit back and relax and know that war is over. We are family, family of Love.

Subject: What about DUO? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:13:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pull, Maharaji most definitely went through a phase where he was saying that we had to feed, clothe and shelter the poor and hungry before they'd ever be interested in enlightenment. That's what DUO was all about. He wore that hat with pride for a year or so. Then it simply went back down to wardrobe.

Subject: Re: What about DUO? From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:13:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, I thought DUO was just a new handle Mr. Big and his band-o-honchos came up with after the DLM name was snatched up/reclaimed by Mata-Ji and Satpal after he lost that court case in India. I guess I must have snoozed off before they made the announcement. Either that, or I was just blissfully unaware. In any case I was more concerned about Willie Svob having drycleaning privileges than paying attention to minor details like feeding and clothing the world. Whatever happened to that guy anyway? |D

Subject: Willie Svob? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:24:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know what happened to ol' Willie. I did a brief alta vista search and got one William Svob living in Boca Raton, Florida. Maybe? Willie and that Phyllis hottie were a number for a while. But beyond that, beats me. He's probably in business of some sort with Andy Perl or something. Hell, I don't know.

Subject: Eh Heller, you betcha, there From: Willie Slob To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 19:44:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Looking beyond being saved From: Diz To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 00:55:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting post, Livia I'm not sure about the 'saving' bit - not sure in middle age that I think I'm about saving anything. But I do agree that as an ex-premie I have decided that I want to identify more as a human being, than as a 'soul' which needs to be saved. And I agree that there's a big difference between the way MJ implied (or sometimes explicitly stated) we should look at the world, and the way I choose to do so now. I think it's true that MJ's teachings encourage narcissism, and that it's gotten more and more that way over time. It's MY experience that counts, not what's happening to anyone or anything else. One of the big drips for me was when MJ said, explicitly, that it was a waste of time to get involved in 'issues'. No point in trying to improve things in the world, the only valid thing to do, in MJ's view, was to concentrate on getting yourself high though meditation. Okay, that's one way to look at life. But to me it's a super limited, self-centred, almost addict-like way to look at it. Mind you, I know there are premies who engage with 'the world' in useful ways. To me, however, they only manage to do so by using a big dose of self-deception. Because I think it's clear that MJ doesn't support that stuff. Or at best implies that it's all secondary. That's why I have some sympathy for the gopi approach. At least it's full on honest to what he's saying. Diz

Subject: New Yorker article on Mormons OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:18:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's so interesting about the Mormon church is that it's such an excellent example of a cult turned into a religion (same difference?) all within a relatively easy to follow time frame. The early 1800's might not have been as well documented as the twentieth century but we sure have a better handle on them than, say, the time of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus or even Mohammed. It's funny, therefore, -- funny and pathetic -- to see how the church rationalizes away the facts. We know, for example, that Smith was a chronic liar, about spiritual and mundane affairs. Yet church elders now are willing to go so far as to say that even the deceptions are all part of some perfect plan of God. And these people never even heard of lila! It makes one wonder what, if anything, could ever knock down this faith. It rather looks like even if they found a completely authenticated confession of Smith's that he was only fooling about the tablets and all that nonsense, it wouldn't change anything. 'God is dead, Long live the church!' -- to paraphrase. Lawrence Wright's article on the Mormons in the New Yorker www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020121fa_FACT1

Subject: thanks Jim From: Susan To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 21:06:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: None of my arguing or evidence or anything did any good. It was all seen as a test of faith and she knows in her heart that it is true. Right now I am focusing on just being myself.. Good article.

Subject: We can't all be good parents, I guess From: Jim To: Susan Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 12:13:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Susan, I just had to make that little joke. I've been up for hours. Some a*sho*e called me four times from 3:30 to 4 and I haven't gotten back to sleep. I only went to bad at 1:30 so I'm a little tender, you could say. I got up, emailed Laurie (stayed downtown last night because she's got the flu or something), and started doing some work. Now it's after nine, I have to jump in the shower and run off to my trial but really ....really? Really, I just feel like going back to sleep. Greaatttttt..........yawn...glaze...drool.... Susan, I just can't, for the life of me, understand how your otherwise intelligent daughter could walk into this one. My mormon friend (well, Jack-mormon, of course) told me just last night how his dad joined just to get his mum. But that's not the kind of bait your daughter bit so I just can't see it. If she's ever interested in talking with uncle Jimmy I'll tear her haed off if you think that'll help. :)

Subject: Mormon Archeological Digs past and present From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:47:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For all the talk in the Smith Tablets about a civilization here in America, castles, ect, the mormons as mum on any evidence anywhere of their cities. I always mention this to the pairs of mormon kid missionaries that zombie-like stroll the pagan streets of my town looking for heathens to enslave oops, I mean save.

Subject: Re: New Yorker article on Mormons OT From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:02:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, heck.... the article stole my thunder concerning the Book of Abraham.... But it didn't mention the 'kinderhook plates.' These were planted, I believe, by some farmers in Missouri and were 'translated' and 'authenticated' by Smith. The farmers made the plates by etching with nitric acid.... Of course.... that doesn't matter to the diehards. Oh, yeah.... the mormon 'underclothes' are based SQUARELY upon the freemason symbols. There are pictures of them all over the place. Smith borrowed heavily to create his little cult..... does that remind us of anyone else we know and loathe? :)

Subject: Big up the cq and sulla From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 07:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank god I collapsed the thread and found the neurotheology post of cq's that you re-posted Sulla, MUCH appreciated.

Subject: Can't take all the credit From: cq To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:25:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were quite a few other people who also posted other articles on the subject (see link above) click here for a link to the EPO archives www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20011127a#P_9742.3704455917

Subject: It is also in Readers Digest magazine... From: Sulla To: cq Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:56:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In de December 2001 issue in english and in the January 2002 issue in spanish.

Subject: would not agree with Joe's post From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 05:40:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One would think that in order to be fair, a recruiter for the maha cult would want to let the recruit know both sides of the issue and let them decide. Why bring someone into the secret society just to have them find out something distasteful later? Why not just let them decide whether the 14 objections are significant to them? If they knew all the facts and still wanted to be involved, well, sign up today! That is why Joe's post seems so reasonable)here it is) --- --- --- --- --- -- I think everyone needs to decide for themselves whether it's relevent or not. I mean, I think it's obvious that the kind of person Maharaji is, his current lying and revisionism, is extremely relevent to deciding if he is worthy of being one's 'master.' I personally can't imagine how it couldn't be relevent. We also have to keep in mind cult programming, which makes it almost impossible to look objectively at the cult leader, so I would take a premie saying that it's 'irrelevent' with a huge grain of salt. But the bottom line is that everyone, premie, ex-premie, aspirant, general public, has the right to KNOW about the kind of person Maharaji is, because Maharaji, himself, has tried very hard to keep the truth about him a secret, and puts out a false picture of who he is. Plus, the fact that he lies about his past, and blames others for what he, himself, did are significant things for people to know, even if Richard 2 chooses not to care.

Subject: Propagation is Done in the West From: gerry To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:17:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that people have the right to know 'the rest of the story.' People are much more savvy nowadays than thirty years ago. Today any serious person conducts an internet search upon hearing about Maharaji. Then of course, they run the other way as fast as they can. Rawat is stymied on the net by our presence. Too bad for him, because it's by far the cheapest and some say the best way of getting your message out. Now he has to use other, more complicated and expensive methods, at a time when donations are drying up. Poor, poor Rawat! Ha!

Subject: Maharaji really believed..... From: If To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:40:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in the importance of spreading knowledge to the world, wouldnt' he use every last penny of his millions for propogation?

Subject: Re: Maharaji really believed..... From: Livia To: If Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:47:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, I've been thinking that lately too. A LOT, and I mean really a lot could be done with $50. Btw, does anyone know if the $50 is inclusive or exclusive of assets? Whichever it is, it's a hell of a lot of money, and could be used for so much......plus the fact that if he wasn't so obscenely rich, a lot more people would've been interested. The whole thing just seems weirder and weirder the more i think about it, and I can't see for the life of me why I couldn't see it before. Makes me weep. Love to all, Livia

Subject: another take on this From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:37:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To be fair, Prem Pal Singh, aka Maharaji, inherited an incredibly heavy burden at what was a very young age. Imagine having to follow in the footsteps of a father who decided that you had, not only to 'spread this knowledge to every land', but to wear the mantle of thinking yourself to be 'greater than God', and convincing the world that you were. A major head-f**k if ever there was one. He compromised. He took on the imposed role, thereby appearing to pay his dues to his father's wishes, but managed to rebel against those wishes by making sure he came out of the deal with his every desire satisfied. Materially speaking, of course. Maybe, in his heart of hearts, he wouldn't have wanted to deal with all the criticism that has inevitably resulted from playing a role that was totally alien to his nature, but to him, that's probably a small price to pay for the huge financial (and adulatory) rewards he's received since he was a toddler. If only his father had asked him to be true to who he really was ... (would have saved the likes of us a lot of wasted time and effort ...)

Subject: Re: another take on this From: Marshall To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 15:46:33 (EST) Email Address: none Message: CQ, Screw being 'fair'! Fuck poor little prem pals, 'heavy burden'. You generally are, I feel, sensible about the issues here CQ, but I couldn't let this slip by. I concede that Prem Pal had a strange childhood, and his dad was a freak, etc. but... I don't know there's something fishy with the whole apologist tone of, 'poor little confused prem desperately wanted to please his dead father, and, he didn't really know any better, and it's because of his culture, and it's not really his fault, and blah blah, ad infinitum...' Rawat is a demented little prick. Period. (in my opinion) Lot's of people had strange or abusive childhoods and didn't go on to be BAD people. Some people clearly did (Koresh, GW Bush, etc.) turn out evil, but... some people actually had the FORTITUDE to do the right thing(despite their age, etc.) Excuses, excuses. Hitler had excuses too. There is no excuse.

Subject: Bravenet and the Worldwide Linkup From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 04:59:46 (EST) Email Address: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com Message: Bravenet (the Worldwide Linkup host) has been down for over a week now and I suspect they've gone out of business. You can always tell when hosts are having difficulties because they put larger and larger pop-up ads on their pages to try and get revenue. I backed up ''The Great Wordwide Linkup'' before Bravenet went down although I've missed the posts put there in February. I will put all the posts onto normal html web pages and will accept new ads by email from now on. Eventually, I'll get a proper email form to fill in but for the time being, any new contact ads can be simply emailed to wordwide_linkup@hotmail.com

Subject: Oh and here's the link From: Sir Dave To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 05:39:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Great Worldwide Linkup www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/

Subject: Video giveaway From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 02:52:23 (EST) Email Address: loafji@yahoo.com Message: I have about 40 or 50 VHS PAL vids from between 1986 (Evolution) to 1999 which if nobody wants em... are going in the bin. Such timeless classics as 'Feel the Confusion' and 'Eat your words' as well as a few rarities. I just cant be arsed giving em shelf room any more Email me if you want em... otherwise they bite the dust. They can be taped over. I am in the UK.

Subject: Loafie - I'll have 'em From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:21:44 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: What fun ! Can I come and get them this week??? Nige says - have you got 'Against the Odds'from 2/3 years ago?

Subject: Re: Video giveaway From: BRYN To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:11:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you got a copy of 'Bewildered' still? I'll swap it for my spare copy of 'Longing for Longing for Longing'. I just found 'Stunned by the Grace' its a early ninties classic you know. Love Bryn,glad to see your still afoot.

Subject: I do From: silvia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:20:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To complete my collection of 400 I already have, seriously. parana54@hotmail.com

Subject: Ooooops ! From: Loaf To: silvia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:26:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i got too excited at the thought of getting rid of em... I simply couldnt wait ! So I hauled em all down to my dustbin and chucked 'em in.. it was great ! I am sorry Silvie if you think you've missed out but they werent good for nuttin' - so my guess is.. you missed nowt ! All gone. Except one. I am sorry !

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: silvia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:26:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq and I want to being doing the transcripts of 'important' videos to put around the net somewhere. If you find more let us know. Our community bought MANY videos, but of course, we didn't have all of them. Take care.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: cq To: silvia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:59:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Silv, Yup, it's true I offered to transcribe your vids. And the offer still stands. But with your system being NTCS, and mine PAL (being UK based), I think I told you that you'd need to send me audio version on either CD or cassette. When you've done that, I'm ready to start on the transcriptions. P.S. check out the link above. click here for part 1 of the Nottingham event www.dreamwater.net/planetqwerty/info/Nottingham1.html

Subject: In time they might be seen as comedy 'cult classics' From: Carl To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:02:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder what they'd go for on eBay. All you exes and premies, you've got a goldmine of collectibles! Invest for your retirement! There's probably some rare ones, some unauthorized ones, like the Buddy Rich 'curse out' tape. Don't toss 'em . . . Trade 'em! Get the complete set! Carl (who just loves his Beany Baby collection.) Just kidding. About the Beany Babies, that is.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: Nottm Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a big tease you turn out to be Loaf! Which one did you keep - Evolution? As a consolation, Silvia, I have a load you could have plus some vintage 70's audio tapes. On one condition, you say what you are intending to do with them?!? Regards, Bunny

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: silvia To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 08:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah. Read my post to Loaf please. We want to do transcripts of them to put them online.

Subject: Re: Ooooops ! From: Nottm Bunny To: silvia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:25:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have already read your post to Loaf that's why I made the offer. Unfortunately your response was too late - Marianne jumped in first and nabbed them! cq can email me to see if I can help - he knows where I am. Bunny

Subject: It was cathartic ! From: Loaf To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:10:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am sorry i didnt mean to be a big tease :0) I had a shelffull of em sitting there for years.. some of which had meant a lot to me at the time (Oasis, Arise, and my favourite 'Feel Yourself') However once I had posted my post... I was impatient ! they were now off their shelf and cluttering up my hallway... and for those of you who have been here.. its cluttered enough already ! So OFF they went to the big purple wheelie bin in the sky. I still have some pics up in my house... and my maharaji photo album... and my altar.... so all is not lost. Anyone want a big 20 x 16' photo of the Fat one ? Alltogether sing : ' Its the great pakki in the sky.....'

Subject: Loafie - get your rubber glove on From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:30:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And get them outya wheelie bin immediately. Fancy a cuppa this week?

Subject: OK OK I am going INTO THE BIN ! From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 22:58:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You bastards ! Yes Moley come round today... cos if I haul them out of their purple wheelie heaven I wont want them lying about (You know what a minimalist I am) - and what we should do is write the titles down so that Sylvie can grab a few. Right then.. I am going into me bin in the morning... it will be like 'All creatures Great and Small' (an old Yorkshire vet* show) me as Tristram Farnam with me arm up a cows arse pulling gobbets of wisdom from the great landfill in the sky. *(Not like Vietnam Vets...they hurt animals - Yorkshire vets are all competant and nice, like lovely Dr. Chinnery)

Subject: Re: OK OK I am going INTO THE BIN ! From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 05:14:13 (EST) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Boldy going where no one has gone before! Okie dokie - will come round today. I'll ring yer when I've spoken to Nige cos he's at uni with the car. (Will you have showered? Will I need protective clothing? Gas mask?) xxx

Subject: This is a great way of talking From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 08:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: like leaving notes under an old tree I cant find your number - ring me ! (Dress as usual... wellington boots et al)

Subject: There's plenty more where they came from From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 03:48:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely, Loaf! Once I no longer liked the man I wanted everything about him OUT OF MY HOUSE! Pure filth! My little pigsty felt a lot cleaner after I got rid of the very reverend's revivalist nonsense.

Subject: old dreams From: Ulf To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:17:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is from a pamphlet, that was made by D.L.M in 1975 . It is called : Changing the world by changing people`s heart Here it comes,,, be brave,,,,,, Our mission is to bring peace , love and truth into this world. Man is supposed to be human , but actually he has lost his humanity. That is why there is so much frustation, so much jealousy, and so much hatred betwin human beings. But every person who receives this knowlegde becomes a member of this family , and we are now a big beautiful family and we are growing. This is how we are going to hook every brother and sister in this world , every human being , into one chain of love and peace - by knowledge. Because this knowledge can do it . Knowledge is the only thing that can tie everybody - it doesn`t matter if he`s a indian spanish, portuguese, dutch, anybody , it doesn`t matter who he is - into one thread , one thread of this most beautiful knowledge. And then this whole world will be a most beautiful, beautiful garden.... Guru Maharaj Ji

Subject: Re: old dreams From: Richard To: Ulf Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ulf, was that the brochure with color photos and a heart line running through it? If so, I designed that piece. If it's the one I think it is, I recall being filled with so much hope and was proud to part of M's stated goal of bringing peace to people's hearts and therefore bring peace to the world. Sounded believeable to me at the time. What a turn around to see what he stands for today. Sad really, to have his followers come here to tell us that what he does and says don't matter as long as they get high from believing him. Pathetic.

Subject: Re: old dreams From: michael donner To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:37:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i was sold on that message...sounded believable to me at the time also. the message hooked me, captured the essense of my personal goal peace within and help to bring world peace. by giving my power away to someone else i sabataged both possibilites simaltaneously. the idea that if i could surrender to the master...if the entire population could just see the master and surrender to him that world peace would happen....wow, what a dream/mind fuck. amazing in retrospect. how deep is the hunger for personal peace and world peace! willing to grasp at any straw that comes along. i also notice how connected the issues of power and security are in all this. i, for example, feel powerless in light of the situation in the middle east...afraid that we will all be drawn into a death spirl by the actions of others that i feel so powerless to affect. and, ironically, that powerless feeling often gets expressed in giving my power away to some ....wanting some...charismatic leader to step in and save me (us all). but, clearly i must continue to develop my own sense of self and self power and learn to live with the anxiety i feel due to events around me...and not fall again into actions that are illusion and conterproductive. not always easy, but essential for my spirit.

Subject: Richard and Pat From: Ulf To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:49:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes indeed , the brochure is the one you made , there is a heart line running through every one of the 20 pages, and a lot color photos with M and the divine Durga ji, infact the one where they are dancing at the beach are on second page. if you wish i will send you a copy. And thanks to Pat,,for your words,, i will e-mail you soon. Cheers Ulf

Subject: Ulf and PatC From: Richard To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:16:13 (EST) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Thanks for the offer to send me a copy, Ulf. If you have an extra copy, I'll gladly take it. Email me and I'll give you an address. PatC the flower child, it was our dreams that financed the road company of SatGuru Has Come. He just supplied the old Indian script and Bhakti JuJu. But, unlike Mel Brooks' Producers, his goal wasn't to produce the flop it has become. Richard, we are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden

Subject: Re: old dreams - Thanks Ulf and Richard From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 03:57:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for typing that up, Ulf, and thanks, Richard, for designing it and thanks both of you for being the sweethearts who believed in that dream. ''And then this whole world will be a most beautiful, beautiful garden....'' Now we have Andrea Erikson, Dot Munchbutt and Dickie Pwickie vying with each other to see who has the most expensive BMW in order to keep up with the cult Joneses or is that ''keep up with the Rawats'' because that seems to be the highest aspiration of all thoroughly modern PWKs. Dot: ''Well, I don't have a real gold-plated toilet but I painted it gold.'' Andrea: ''Well, my husband insisted on real gold faucets, well okay just one faucet - the cold water one.'' PatC the Flowerchild

Subject: An anonymous premie emailed me a virus From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:40:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and they may have emailed it to you. It is in the file: creator.bat and the name of the virus is W32/Magistr.b@MM. Of course, I didn't open the attachment. I like the terminology in the text which they included in the email. It is so obviously premie (read, copied from Maharaji's trite utterences). Part of the text reads: ''God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it. The question here should be what makes me do these things to my body? If the answer is my mind you are 50% there.'' Now there is one nasty person. Sneakily emailing viruses to people while spewing Maha platitudes in the process. A weird lot, these people. The email came pretending to be talking about a cookery book which was supposed to be attached. The title of the email was "My most, deepest thank (sic)" and the full text that came with the email is as follows: "This book it not just any fashion diet it is rather a comprehensive simple explanations of various knowledge of foods in order to make an educated choice. Rather than believing in monkey see monkey do generalize diet that disrespect the need for true custom-made diet for the individual instead of the masses. God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it. Moderation what a word and the meaning of it is not understood very well. Has long as we do excesses and end up with side effects, you would think since those excesses make us feel bad, it would be easy to give them up. But no the dilemma goes on. The question here should be what makes me do these things to my body? If the answer is my mind you are 50% there."

Subject: Re: An anonymous premie emailed me a virus From: New-Age Redneck To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:15:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, this was a peach, '...''God only knows we spend so much time being knowledgeable about everything but who we are, what are we really doing, and take care of the gift of this life by spending time on the learning how to care for it....' Yes, and how we 'fix ourselves' is to become completely self-absorbed. Ahhhh..... the 'meaning' of life is to become narcissist! NOW I understand! I would ask these idiots a simple question, 'if meditation felt miserable and doing the will of their god was total drudgery, would they do it?' If they answer NO, then it is OBVIOUS that 'worship' and 'self realization' is nothing but self-gratification. Jeez, I can do THAT with a single hand! AND it will be just as effective for 'seeing' god! he he he :) WHY NOT JUST LIVE?! Forget about your 'place' in this world and just LIVE in your place? Try to be a decent person and let others try to be decent people. Jeez, does it take a friggin' guru to figure this one out?

Subject: Tut Tut From: A Troll To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:17:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im a troll! :)

Subject: Who's that trip, trip trapping... From: Tonette To: A Troll Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:22:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Across my bridge. It's me, Billy Goat Gruff, please don't eat me!

Subject: I get them all the time! From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:32:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Strangely, before I became EPO webmaster I very rarely received viruses. I now get them regularly to my Latvian address, the old EPO webmaster address, and the new one. I save them all so I reckon I've got a pretty good virus library now. Anyone want a virus? John.

Subject: Magistrar.b symptoms From: Jennifer To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:05:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, My computer had the magistrar.b back at the beginning of the year. It wasn't that hard to get rid of with the anti-virus software. (The one that was a bitch to eradicate was the hybris virus--took a week, myself and two technicians!) Magistrar made the icons on my desktop jump around and it sent copies of my publisher and word documents to people in my address book (and people in their address books and so on) It also made it impossible for me to download anti-virus updates from Norton or McAfee. Are you sure this premie sent this to you on purpose? Magistrar.b will attach itself to e-mail and attachments without the sender's knowledge. It's a random program that attacks address books in programs like Outlook Express.

Subject: Thanks Jen & Jean but my point was From: Sir Dave To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that the text which came with the attachment was so obviously written by a premie. I'm not worried about viruses and have enough anti-virus software to kill an elephant but this was so obviously sent by a premie that I thought it was worth mentioning. Of course, like most people I get viruses all the time and most to my business address. My main problem is spam email. I get up to forty a day and it's hard to find the real posts sometimes amongst all the spam.

Subject: Junk mail etc From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:53:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My (snail)mailbox is filled with junk mail almost everyday. Same problem. Some have an assistant to sort all this, some do it themselves ......... Same thing with phone calls at my office. I get a significant number of unwanted and really bothering calls..... Same thing with people coming to my office searching for anything. I'm going to retire in a cave .......... and meditate !!!! Finally !!!!!!

Subject: Use your IP's virus filter From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:02:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most IPs have a virus filter/virus check for emails: set it ON, and you'll be safe.

Subject: This could have been you. Regrets? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:03:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: My two sides Ivete Belfort Mattos: From Sao Paolo, Brazil Events are happiness for my heart and a drama in my head before they start. When I start to make any plans, I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' This persistent feeling that I will be excluded, alone and rejected.has never, ever been realised. When this feeling starts I practice more that I normally do. But I have also developed a routine to support myself: I have always my binoculars with me, valid visas, and timetables of all the airlines. I do my registration as soon it starts, I arrive before events begin. Yet I do like to go beyond this practical checklist and for this reason: I love to participate. Not only it is a privilege to assist and support an event, but it also distracts my always creative mind. Somehow this feels selfish so I find it hard to confess, but one thing I know is that it works. When I am involved participating, I forget all these imaginary scenarios. I concentrate all my focus on it. So now an event starts for me when I feel the urge to help out, for it is truly my pleasure, my privilege and my joy. Some times when I get back, that same voice starts up again:'Why do you travel so much?' But this is a question which no longer disturbs me; my answers is always the same 'To learn'. This is a simple answer that always works. I know that I have a silent joy lighting me up inside. This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched...

Subject: Regrets? Premies have no time for regrets ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:38:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I see ... a rat upon a wheel ... saying: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until ... 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' until: 'This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched... ' until ... ' ... I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.'

Subject: And her follow-up From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amaroo 2002 I so much want to go to Amaroo. I trust that my heart will overcome all, driving me there to fulfill all my wishes to listen and learn more about the inner gift of beauty in that special place. It is so peaceful there. For all that care, I thank you all. I hope to be there. I hope to enjoy it. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil

Subject: From: This could have been you. Regrets? To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:02:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: My two sides Ivete Belfort Mattos: From Sao Paolo, Brazil Events are happiness for my heart and a drama in my head before they start. When I start to make any plans, I listen a voice inside me often telling me: 'I told you that you are not going to get the visa, the ticket or do the registration on time'; 'Registration is bound to end before you have a chance to do it.';'And now you have not received any confirmation, so, you cannot go'; 'The hall will be full and you will not be allow to go inside'. In addition, it insists:'Please remember how many times you have travelled for many hours and your seat was at the very back of the hall.' This persistent feeling that I will be excluded, alone and rejected.has never, ever been realised. When this feeling starts I practice more that I normally do. But I have also developed a routine to support myself: I have always my binoculars with me, valid visas, and timetables of all the airlines. I do my registration as soon it starts, I arrive before events begin. Yet I do like to go beyond this practical checklist and for this reason: I love to participate. Not only it is a privilege to assist and support an event, but it also distracts my always creative mind. Somehow this feels selfish so I find it hard to confess, but one thing I know is that it works. When I am involved participating, I forget all these imaginary scenarios. I concentrate all my focus on it. So now an event starts for me when I feel the urge to help out, for it is truly my pleasure, my privilege and my joy. Some times when I get back, that same voice starts up again:'Why do you travel so much?' But this is a question which no longer disturbs me; my answers is always the same 'To learn'. This is a simple answer that always works. I know that I have a silent joy lighting me up inside. This gives me hope of attending the next event, where the thirst I feel, I know, will be quenched...

Subject: M sound like Jim Jones? You decide From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:32:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm supposed to be working on something at home today but I saw this last night and thought I'd take a few minutes to share it with you. It's a taste of some satsang M gave, I don't know when. It's from the November / December '77 Divine Times, page 17, but I don't have the beginning or end of it, unfortunately, so I don't know where he actually uttered this wisdom: Now people start looking for satsifaction, and what do they look for satisfaction in? In what? Well you see, it's like this -- you know, I mean, we can take examples of Lord Ram. Or we can take examples of Jesus Christ. And he used to travel on a mule; he would ho place to place. He had a mule, and therefore he had a property; he had an asset. [unintentional pun?] But it wasn't like he was saying, 'Man, if this mule goes away, I don't know what I'm going to do.' It wasn't that kind of a situation. The situation was: There it was. And that's what it was, and that's where it stayed at, and that was it. So premies, it's like not having that understanding that this whole thing that we seek satisfaction from is only our own substitute that we have generated from our dissatisfaction; therefore the present satisfaction, in any way that man seeks for it, is a product, a top-quality product, of his own dissatisfaction. And so therefore it is such a puzzle. It's such a rigamarole. You go from one point, and that leads you to the same point. If you go to that point, it puts you in another point. So it's like, it doesn't matter what you do or where you go. You're going to end up at one of the points that seem to be at the same place at the same time -- at all the places. So premies, really, if you look at it, we are so fortunate. We are so lucky. We are so -- I mean, what are the words? I guess fortunate, lucky ... I guess if somebody knows more highfalutin English, they probably have some more words. But we are just so lucky to be here in this world.[Okay, if it was impenetrable nonsense before, here's where it starts to get weird. First, we're so lucky to be in this world. Then watch what happens] Because maybe a hundred years from now the world is going to be even more crazy. But definitely there is one thing: We won't live to see it. So right now, the way it is, I think it's crazy enough for us. And in this crazy world -- and it's just such a beautiful thing. Becuase there it is -- pitch darkness. And you are walking through this park, through this jungle. And you stumble, you know, and it's pitch dark; can't see anything. And you stumble, and you feel what it is, and it's a headstone. You feel a whole graveyard there. Then you walk by a little bit more, you step on something; you see a big stone there. Something scratches you on the cheeks; you feel that there is a barren tree there. And slowly and slowly, just in your own imagination (and not even imagination -- even in the reality of how grotesque that place really is), you start to feel it; you start to know about it. And when that starts to happen, a fear, a dnager starts to grown in your own mind, or in your own heart. [Watch out Janice!] And it's just like you are thinking of so much stuff, because you can't see anything. And you are walking -- I mean, you just don't know. You just don't know. And maybe you are very strong, but yet it's that fear of unknown that's just bothering you, that's just getting you. And in all this craziness, all of a sudden you hear something coming, something approaching. And then all of a sudden it just lights up the whole place. Such a bright light ligths up the whole place. And you see that yes, this is a graveyard. The things you were feeling were grotesque. But you also see that there is no need to fear. There is no need to be afraid. And you can clearly then just be who you are, be what you are supposed to be, and enjoy the further beauties, than to be completely scared and now know. And this is the way this is. In this world we tumble, we stumble, we fall down, and we feel things, you know. And it's just -- we don't knwo what it is. We just don't know. And it's just like, fear grows in our hearts. And this is what I was saying: Maybe it is your imagination. But defintiely only to some extent. Because in reality there is a lot of grossness to what you are feeling. In reality there is a lot of dissatisfaction. Because I mean, yes, I can come down here and give you satsang for two hours on just one thing: how gross this world is. You know, that's one thing that's really incredible -- that you cannot run out of words for gross it has become, you know. And it's just like, you can say that you just feel like packing up your sleeping bag and just taking off to some cave, some mountain, where there just won't be anything. And yet, you can see that this is what probably all the saints, all the mahatmas, all the sadhus used to do. They used to just say, 'Man, this is weird.' And they used to just split and go somewhere where it was nice. ******** But to attain all that I have talked about, it's our own love, it's our own surrender, that we have to surrender oursleves to. We have to surrender ourselves to Guru Maharaj Ji. And maybe a lot of people have this question: 'Why? I have my life.' This is the reasoning. And maybe I'm going to give you a few reasons. But maybe none of those reasons you yourself think. But maybe they are close enough. 'I have my life. I was given this life. Why should I surrender it?' Or maybe you think, 'Why should anybody surrender? If there is this thing to be given, this Knowledge, this thing to be given, why should it be given only when you surrender? Why can't it just be given as it is?' Or maybe you think, 'Well, surrender is just not possible. It doesn't exist.' Or maybe you think that it's too hard for you to do. But let me just take it again. First of all, for people who think it's really their lives, they should think about it twice. It's not. If it is, well how come one day you just split? **** But there is only one solution. And what that is is surrender. But that's what I'm saying you should look twice. You don't own your life. This has been given to you for a specific purpose. **** Okay, and I'm pretty sure you have taken ferries at one time or another. If you're taking a ferry and it's supposed to bring you from one end of the river to the other end of the river, butyou jump off, how is it going to take oyu form one end to the other end? I mean, you have to make sense. It just doesn't work that way. If you jump off, that's where you are going to stay. You're probably going to drown. And if there's a current coming, it's just going to sweep you away. And then maybe, afte you die, you're going to become really buoyant, and then it'll just take you and put you ashore somewhere.'

Subject: He sounds totally incoherent From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:30:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this quote is the most confused speech I've ever heard from any person, '...'Man, if this mule goes away, I don't know what I'm going to do.' It wasn't that kind of a situation. The situation was: There it was. And that's what it was, and that's where it stayed at, and that was it. ' Talk about meaningless tripe! We actually listened to this and nodded our approval/understanding? AND ANOTHER: '...So it's like, it doesn't matter what you do or where you go. You're going to end up at one of the points that seem to be at the same place at the same time -- at all the places....' I guess this means we're ALL going to 'make it,' no matter what we do. Hey, Jim..... you and I be saved! NOw that's comforting, no? AND ANOTHER: '...But there is only one solution. And what that is is surrender. But that's what I'm saying you should look twice. You don't own your life. This has been given to you for a specific purpose....' And what might the 'purpose' of my life be, oh lard? What's that you say? The 'purpose' is to buy you palatial living, many cars, boats, airplanes and jewelery for you and your wife? YES, oh YES, lard! I'll do it right away! You've shown me your divine plan! Now I actually KNOW something..... (like I didn't before!) I KNOW the lard's mind.... I KNOW the lard's desires.... I KNOW the lard cares about ME.... HAH, I KNOW the lard is a selfish pile of crap! Quite frankly, I find some of the stuff J Jones said to be quite a bit more coherent then this tripe.

Subject: Re: He sounds totally incoherent From: Parody To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:45:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if you see it that way, there it is, becasue, I mean, what is it? Incoherent? I think not. It's just the type of point I was trying to make before. People see something, and they say this and that, but what are they really saying? Do you know? Have you really listened? Because it's the heart, you know. It's the heart.

Subject: Sounds like it should be on EPO From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:45:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: November / December '77 Divine Times, page 17 you say Jim? Any chance of scanning it in for EPO? Or photocopying it for someone with less time to? ;)

Subject: Re: Sounds like it should be on EPO From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:55:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why does it have to be photocopied? I think this excerpt should just go up as it is, perhaps under a doom and gloom heading. It's so obvious what M's doing, isn't it? Trying to isolate and frighten the hell out of everyone. The world sucks, ain't it the truth? Then along comes M, the saviour. He's got the relief you so badly need, the only trick is you have to surrender your life to him. But hey, that shouldn't be that big a problem. After all, it's not yours to begin with, right? So do it, go for it. Mind you, if you fall off the boad, don't forget you will drown. Have a nice day!

Subject: for the sake of perceived veracity ... From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:11:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... not that I'm doubting your talents at trascribing verbatim, Jim. (though the odd typo sometimes gets through for all of us). There'd be no harm in scanning at least the title banner, would there? J-M has used this approach often, and to good effect, I think, if only to give credence to the authenticity of the article. After all, there are *some* so-called premies who like to suggest that *everything' on EPO is fabricated.

Subject: 'You don't own your life.' From: Disculta To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:33:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now ain't that just the nub of the whole deal!?

Subject: Dedication and Responsibility From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:42:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was watching this documentary the other day about this rock band that was trying to garner a following by touring across North America in a van with all their gear. Three sweaty guys, sleeping sometimes in the van, eating in fast-food joints, determined to visit most large and mid-size urban centers . Playing in places like Toledo, Ohio; Buffalo, New York. Music is their life and they are dedicated to getting out there and getting people to listen to them. Then I flashed on one of Dettmers' stories about Maharaji, about how one time actually enroute to a program on the east coast of the U.S. he caught the sniffles and ended up turning the plane around, cancelling the program, and heading off to the Bahamas or some similar spot for a vacation. It got me to thinking how when he does do programs he goes first class all the way. Flies his own Lear jet. Stays in the best hotels. Has people waiting on him hand and foot. Mistresses, cognac. Speaks for an hour or so and sits down for a sumptious meal. I thought about Maharaji blaming the instructors and organizers for getting it all wrong. I thought if Maharaji was so concerned about really getting it right he could have made the effort to actually visit the communities, at least a cross-section of them, to see how they were doing, back then. See for himself how programs were being handled, ashrams run, etc. I know that he had plenty of meetings with his organizers and instructors, what was he doing if not setting the course? But in the end he just ended up blaming the lot of them for screwing it all up. No one now is allowed to say anything about anything but himself. Feedback has been eliminated. Individuals thinking for themselves has been eliminated. Sounds like an Orwellian nightmare to me. What will happen now that Maharaji has no one to point the finger at except himself?

Subject: Bring it ON From: Francesca To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:13:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pullaver, You said: What will happen now that Maharaji has no one to point the finger at except himself? I've been wondering the same thing. His own website, his own auto-knowledge DVDs. I have no doubt that he'll be able to think of something though. He'll probably just blame the 'users' of the 'product,' like he's been doing for years, and the premies have learned to do to each other and expremies. (Witness Richard II's post the other day implying that the only source of peace, light and love was his Master, and so if you left Richard II's Master and became a non-student, you were a bitter, broken soul who had never practiced the Master's meditation properly, or had stopped practicing properly, and surely had no access to your heart, to peace, to love, to light.) It will be interesting, of course. Let the contortions and distortions begin! But I think it will be the same old tune. You're either with me, or have gone over to the dark and joyless side, is Maharaji's message. --F

Subject: Bad Breath??? From: Pullaver To: Francesca Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:50:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Francesca for not leaving this post as a 'widow/orphan'. I guess if I expect to start a conversation on this Forum I'd be better off posting a story about some guy left to die in a windshield.|D

Subject: Someone say something about a windshield? From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 20:44:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I wouldn't have said anything here excpet I heard there was some talk about a guy in a windshield. But, no, you're just talking about the guru again, aren't you??

Subject: Gimme a Brake From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 22:59:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Getting caught in your concepts is like getting caught in a windshield. The more you press your wiper fluid button the more your wiper blades get caught in someone's armpit. Maharaji couldn't have said it any better. My sincere apologies to the poor unfortunate victim.

Subject: Like Postie always says . . . From: Richard To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 23:47:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometimes you're the windshield, Sometimes you're the bug. Actually Mary Chapin Carpenter sings that song but I couldn't resist throwing in a bit of redneck philosophy. As for the miscreant who hit the guy and let him plead for his life, she should be publicly drawn and quartered. Or at the very least, be forced to watch the Atlanta Training video and Passages over and over again until she begs his family for forgiveness. And they get to ignore her.

Subject: Sometimes an apology isn't enough OT From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:17:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man Lives 2 Days Stuck In Windshield Hit-And-Run Victim Eventually Dies In Driver's Garage FORT WORTH, Texas -- A man who was the victim of a hit-and-run lived at least two days trapped in the driver's broken windshield before dying in the driver's garage in Fort Worth, Texas, police said. 'I'm going to have to come up with a new word. Indifferent isn't enough. Cruel isn't enough to say. Heartless? Inhumane? Maybe we've just redefined inhumanity here,' a prosecutor in Fort Worth told Fort Worth Star-Telegram about the October 2001 incident. Share Your Thoughts Is A Murder Charge Too Harsh? Police arrested a 25-year-old woman Wednesday -- a nurse's aide -- on murder charges in the man's hit-and-run death, according to the Telegram. Police told the Telegram that Gregory Biggs spent at least two days trapped in the broken windshield of the car that hit him. They said the woman who was driving the car, Chante Mallard, drove it home and kept it in the garage -- and heard Biggs begging for help before he finally died of blood loss and shock. According to a police statement, Mallard panicked, and with the man still lodged in the windshield, she drove a few miles to her home, parked in her garage, and ignored his pleas for help until he died. His body was later dumped in a park. The mother of the homeless man, Meredith Biggs, said she wonders how the woman could have let him die the way he did. Police said Mallard told them she had been drinking and was on drugs at the time she struck the man, and that she panicked. But Meredith Biggs told the newspaper that she wants to know why the woman didn't call for help after the drugs wore off. Mallard told police she occasionally went into the garage, apologizing to the victim. The impact had hurled him headfirst through the windshield, his broken legs sticking out onto the hood. Mallard's attorney said police are overreaching in charging her with murder.

Subject: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:20:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must of meant is a murder charge harsh enough. I agree with the prosecutor, he's going to have to invent a new word for the action and cruelity by this 'nurses aid.' Yikes! To associate the word 'nurse' in any way shape or form with this individual makes my skin crawl. I have to ask you Jim, as a defense attorney, would you be able to launch a defense for a person like this? Can you refuse clients? What would you do if you had to be her defense attorney? I'm curious. Tonette

Subject: Re: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:07:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd take the case and think of something. :) That's what we do. The system depends on it and it's a good system, maybe not the best but pretty good, all things considered.

Subject: Yes, and... From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 20:12:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not wanting to put words in your mouth, Jim, but isn't the only way to guarantee justice for the innocent to provide the best possible defence for anybody charged with anything? That way the quality of evidence, for or against, is the only criterion for determining both culpability and punishment. Remember CW and others attacking you here for defending all sorts of bastards in court - ie. choosing to - whilst vilifying Jagdeo? (I am not sure they fully understand the principles by which justice operates.) Hmm, but would you defend Jagdeo, if he were to ask you? Now there's a question...

Subject: Asked and answered From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 21:00:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Nige, you have to give it your all, or at least you're supposed to, in order to keep the system meaningfully tense. Justice depends on a vigorous interplay between prosecution and defence. That's the name of the game. I'm not the judge and neither is the prosecutor (although he or she gets to play that part a bit when they decide who to prosecute and for what). The system wouldn't work if we only took those roles seriously when we, defence counsel, happened to like or believe in our cases and clients. It's not a perfect system. In fact it's a bit weird, when you think of it. But it works, it's all we've got and I wasn't born wealthy. Nor did I ever have a cult to sponge off. Hell, I'm not even licenced as a personal trainer or motivational speaker! Would I defend Jagdeo? Are you kidding. And cross-examine my good friends Abi and Susan? Of course not. Big conflict of interest. Beside, it wouldn't be fair to any of the parties, would it? Sure wouldn't be fair to me. But, while we're talking, how much money does he have? You know, just asking. Doesn't hurt to ask. :) No, of course not!

Subject: To Jim: How far would you go? From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:56:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Jim You answered: I'd take the case and think of something. That's what we do. The system depends on it and it's a good system, maybe not the best but pretty good, all things considered. Imagine the following situation: Maharaji is in the dock, charged with responsibility for or collusion with the worst that has been shared on the forums. You, Jim, are given the brief to defend him and you are the only defence lawyer available (conflict of interest cannot apply as Marianne is the only other in the world and she is maxed out). Would you accept the brief? If so, how would you go about it? Regards, Bunny

Subject: No, of course not From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:13:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Defend M? Of course not. Conflict of interest, no?

Subject: That's what I thought From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 16:55:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And of course the scenario was ridiculous. Does that mean: A) M has no right to a defence B) The system is not sacrosanct or, shock, horror, C) That I've got to cut out my stereotypical jokes about lawyers?!? Regards, Bunny

Subject: Re: That's what I thought From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:11:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, not at all. It just means that M would have to get another lawyer. This happens all the time. Just your basic conflict of interest, that's all. A lawyer generally can't or shouldn't act in a case where he's got some personal stake or involvement. There are exceptions but that's the general rule.

Subject: Re: That's what I thought From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:31:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I understand about conflicts of interest. In the scenario I outlined, there were no other lawyers so it was you or no-one to defend him. I know it wasn't realistic, I just wondered in view of what you said. I'm sure there are cases you would not take on other principles either. I suppose it's as daft as when people ask me whether I would eat meat or starve if there was nothing else. Bunny (Eats nothing that had a pulse or a face)

Subject: Jim, I think Bunny was pulling yr leg From: Marianne To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 21:16:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Bunny is another one of those wily Brits who like to make jokes at the expense of us folks across the pond. Sometimes we just don't get their humor, which I think was the point of Bunny's original post. I think it's safe to say Captain Rawat would rather defend himself rather than have either James Heller, Esq. or Marianne Bachers, Esq., as his lawyer. Now Bunny, what's your favorite kind of green? Here's a pet to you, all 6,000 miles away. Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Marriane - I thought you were my friend! From: Nottm Bunny To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 10:37:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And now you are trying to get me into trouble with Jim! Jim - don't take any notice - my original question was quite serious, (ie just how far could your detachment go to uphold the system). Actually, I think Marianne is a little jealous that She wasn't offered the prestigeous (albeit fictional) brief first! Well, Marianne, would you have taken it or would you prefer to see M utterly defenceless? Lots of love Bunny

Subject: The only lawyer I trust is Quiet From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 15:39:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and he's only a law student.

Subject: Will you still trust him when................ From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:54:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......He's qualified? Reminds me of that saying: 'The only person to enter Parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes'.

Subject: No, and that quote's hilarious! [nt] From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 17:36:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How did that face get in? I did this: B). NT From: Nottm Bunny To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:10:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gerry, why can't I write B then ) ? NT From: Nottm Bunny To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 17:12:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Bunny From: gerry To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:19:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Certain combinations create 'emoticons' those little faces you see. Unfortunately it means that sometimes they pop up when you don't want them. I'd turn that feature off but people seems to like them and it usually isn't a problem. Chuck Sprague has compiled a list at the site I've linked. Emoticons www.geocities.com/louella_parsnip/emoticons/emoticonsdir.htm

Subject: Thanks for the info Gerry NT From: Nottm Bunny To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:47:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I respect that fact.. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I respect the ability you bring to your profession and your belief in it. Yes, our legal system beats most others, the Salem Witch Trials come to mind and the justice handed out by governments akin to the Taliban are models not to be followed. I could not do what you do, however someone has to. I even have a hard time doing sometimes what my profession dictates. I guess this paints me as all too judgemental of my fellow humans. For instance, why transplant a liver into someone who knocked out their native liver with drugs and alcohol? Why not give the organ to the 30 yr. old mother of two young children who lost her liver to Hepatitis C via a blood transfusion 20 years earlier? Why transplant a heart into an IV drug abuser who burned out all his valves by doing drugs when you have a 33 year old guy who is dying from myopathy? Yes the system is better than many others. Definately better than what I would devise. Cutting off someone's hand for stealing is a bit much. Shooting a woman in the head for adultery is an example of a punishment which does not fit the crime. Without the checks and balances and rights granted by our legal system this would be exactly what society would stoop to. Take care, I hope you get to defend lots of innocent people in order to counter the truly guilty you defend. Tonette

Subject: Good answer From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:40:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spoken like a true professional, Jim. Take the case and think about it. But I'm sure you'll understand that we amateurs are much more certain about what WE'D do and what SHOULD be done with her.

Subject: Plea of insanity From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:21:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The woman sounds sociopathic. Spending the rest of her life in an asylum is better than the death penalty. She might have time to be treated and finally feel remorse and join the human race.

Subject: The woman HAS to be in denial - big time From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:49:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott (on AG, or is it SatChit?) sees her as being evil. An evil person could deliberately act this way, of course. But so could someone who desperately wanted to deny reality. Evil and illness are NOT the same, IMO. (for good or ill).

Subject: Evil -- meaningless term From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:59:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Labeling that woman 'evil' is such a meaningless, silly thing to say. It implies that she set out to do what she did just out of meanness, and enjoyed it, and I don't see anything in that news article to suggest that. She is probably very messed up mentally, that's for sure. Plus, I hope everyone keeps in mind how misleading many -- I think I would say most -- news articles are. You have to question how much of the whole story you are getting from one news article.

Subject: Evil -- not so meaningless term From: New-Age Redneck To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:26:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, as they release more of her own statements, it appears that she and her knowing-cohorts were 'hate-filled, racist, killers.' Isn't that a reasonble definition for 'evil?' Out of her own mouth she referred to this guy as a 'white guy,' while giggling about the incident to her friend. That's not a hate crime? You 'could' make the point that anyone that kills another is 'crazy.' Certainly, to you and me, it would seem that way. But, where's the 'line' between civilized behavior and behavior that is so foul as to turn the stomach of any reasonable person? She, on many counts, crossed that line. If it were reversed and a 'white woman' did the same to a black homeless man.... we would RIGHTFULLY be yelling 'hate crime.' So why isn't anyone yelling that, now? Given her own words..... I think this oversight is despicable. That doesn't deserve the 'evil' moniker? Me-thinks, it does.

Subject: Re: Evil -- meaningless term From: Joe To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 13:36:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If she really is 'a hate-filled killer' (not sure how you know that, but if that's you conclusion), why don't you just say that? Why do you need to, and how does it help, to call her 'evil' as well? Again, I think the term is meaningless, or at best redundant, especially if you are labelling somebody that entirely on the basis of some news articles.

Subject: Why 'evil' is a meaningful term From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 16:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I think the real value of 'evil' as a word is in how it indicates the moral aversion felt by the person using the word. Thus, it's more a reflection of the speaker's mind rather than any qualities of the person or thing being called 'evil'. But that's all useful communication, even if it says more about the speaker than his subject.

Subject: Fine, if it's used that way From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 17:22:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thus, it's more a reflection of the speaker's mind rather than any qualities of the person or thing being called 'evil' But usually it isn't used that way at all, and it's not the way it was being used in this case. It would be one thing to say that what the person did (or the admittedly limited version of those events known only from a few press reports) conjures up 'evil' feelings inside of the speaker. But that's very different than labelling someone 'evil' like there is some kind of objective measure available and it's not, like you just said, something entirely subjective. In that sense, 'evil' is a meaningless, redundant term. But I'm not so sure I would agree that 'evil' is the same thing as a feeling of 'moral aversion.' You are using 'evil' as a feeling, but I don't think it has been traditionally used that way.

Subject: Simple failure to render aid? From: Jennifer To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:52:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I disagree with one point in this article. Her defense said that this was a simple case of 'failure to stop and render aid.' If the guy was hit by someone else and she drove by and did not help, then yes this would be true. Since she is the one who actually hit him, took him home with her and then had a couple of days to do something to help, that statement sounds ridiculous.

Subject: I couldn't agree more, Joe (nt) From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:12:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I couldn't agree more, Joe (nt)

Subject: PS - only as far as this case is concerned From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:17:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS - only as far as this case is concerned. When I read the headers to this thread, it appeared that I was agreeing that the word 'evil' was a meaningless term. What I meant to say was that I agreed with your assessment of the case - and that to call this woman 'evil' was at best pre-judgemental, and at worst - well, perhaps Scott should answer that.

Subject: Well, I should hope so. From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:46:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, be sure everyone understands you aren't advocating for the belief in the non-existence of 'evil.' We can't have that, no way. :) One does wonder, however, how this woman could hit someone with her car, with that person smashing through her windshield, his legs planted on her front hood, and then she calmly drove home for several miles and parked in her garage, and then sauntered into her house, returning to the screaming man and periodically apologizing, and nobody, nobody saw or heard anything the least bit suspicious. What is missing from this picture? And if this woman 'dumped' the body in a park, how do they know anything else this woman said was true? Apparently nobody, save this crazy woman actually saw this guy impailed for 'two days' on the windshield of her car, in her garage. And yet the article is just so certain this all happened. And don't forget that she periodically apologized, and made a point of telling the authorities that. That's an important clue here that the authors didn't want to leave out, but somehow they never ask any of the other obvious questions. I think it pays to be skeptical, even before one gets to the silly and meaningless game, a la Sally Jessie Raphael, of whether this woman is 'evil' or just insane.

Subject: Re: Well, I should hope so. From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:23:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, It does seem kind of strange that no one saw her driving with the guy on her hood, but then again didn't this happen in middle of the night? Maybe there wasn't anyone on the street at that time or maybe the roads she were driving on were dark or secluded. I would think a coroner could confirm how long it took the guy to die, right? That part of her story should be fairly easy to prove true of false. If the guy was weak, losing blood and in shock, maybe his cries for help were not loud enough for her neighbors to hear, especially with the garage closed. People do terrible things in their homes all of the time and neighbors are non the wiser. They are investigating the possibility that other people were involved in this. What else do you think is missing from this picture?--you have me curious now!

Subject: Re: Is a murder charge too harsh? From: Jerry To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:58:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I don't know what Jim would do but I know what I'd do. I'd try to convince judge and jury that my client was OUT OF HER COTTON PICKIN' MIND!! Which she actually was. I think an insanity plea would be the route to go. I dont' think it would be too hard to convince a jury that this individual was too wacky (at least at the time) to understand the difference between right and wrong in her actions, that the duress of her experience sent her over the edge and she lost all scope of the right thing to do.

Subject: Only one problem though From: New-Age Redneck To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:40:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry, if a person doesn't know right from wrong, why would they make a point apologizing? To apologize indicates a knowledge of right and wrong. Her own words prevent that defense. I hate bringing this up time and again, but while telling the story in front of 'witnesses,' she giggled about it while referring to the dead man as a 'white guy.' Maybe this is simply a hate-crime.... If the tables were turned, I'm CERTAIN that would be the case. If someone 'giggles' over the death of another, I would most definitely call that 'evil,' no? Jerry, you 'know' some of my background from many previous posts. I can tell you that I NEVER 'giggled' in wartime, not a single time. I take no glee in what I was required to do. Yet.... this woman did. I think there is a definite 'line,' and she hurled herself across it.

Subject: For Joe and Jerry From: Jennifer To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure if this woman is insane, or if she has a personality disorder by where she is incredibly selfish and suffers from lack of empathy. My husband's cousin suffers from the latter, and she has been in and out of jail for drug and theft charges. She has always been held accountable by the courts for her actions, as a personality disorder is not technically considered 'insanity'. This woman I know is not insane, but I have few doubts that she would do the exact same thing the nurses aide did (according to the story we have anyway) if she were in the same situation. Having no psychological report on the nurse's aide, I can't say definitively whether or not she has a personality disorder. From the story I read, she does not have empathy, which is what makes me think this is a possibility. I do believe these types of discussions ARE important for people in society to have with one another. They help us define our own values and they help us to THINK about things that happen around us and make sense of things that seem senseless. These type of discussions also give us a chance to see a situation from the viewpoint of someone else, which is very important, in my opinion. It's perfectly fine to draw conclusions about what we think based on the information available to us, just as long as we remember that we don't have the whole story. Did that make any sense?

Subject: Not Diminished Capacity From: Murder, Depraved Indifference and To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:03:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The woman can be called *crazy*. The woman's attorney will try for a dim cap defense, based on drug use. Won't work. However *evil* she may appears, she still deserves a defense. That's how the legal system works in America. Otherwise she'd be lynched or burned at the stake. She probably isn't legally insane. Remember Laramie, Wyoming when the two townies killed the gay student by beating him and tying him to the fence post? He didn't die right away either. He was tied to the post for 18 hours when a bicyclist found him and he lived a few more days in the hospital. Shepard was his name. The townies were druggies too. They got life without parole. Punishment not treatment.

Subject: Matthew Shepard's parents -OT From: Marianne To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 21:22:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason that no one got the death penalty in the Shepard murder case is that Matthew Shepard's parents decided that their son would have wanted to be compassionate towards his killers in a way they weren't towards him. They convinced the prosecutor to drop death as a possible sentence in the case. I've just been talking about this issue over on SatChitChat Room. The Shepards belong to an organization called Murder Victims' Families for Reconcilation. It is made up of family members who have been touched by murder -- either through criminal conduct or state execution. These folks are all against the death penalty, and have forged bonds with each other. They travel around the world speaking out against the death penalty, and explain how family members from both sides of this horrible experience have come to know and love each other, and work together to put an end to the death penalty. What they have to say about this issue, because of personal experience, is far more compelling than any intellectual argument I can make. You can find them at www.mvfr.org Marianne

Subject: Believe in the Death Penalty [nt] From: That's Good, I don't To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 16:09:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Not Diminished Capacity From: Jennifer To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:45:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoever you are: You say she isn't probably legally insane. I agree. So far I haven't seen convincing proof that she is. My sister is a criminal defense attorney so I know a good bit about how the legal system in American works. I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me she deserves a defense. Of course I agree that she does! I haven't discussed the idea of evil, so I'm not sure why you addressed that particular part to me. I think the story in Wyoming is a little different from this one in that the townies premeditated that hate crime. This situation appears to have started out as an accident which later became a crime. Make sense?

Subject: Here, here!!!! From: New-Age Redneck To: Murder, Depraved Indifference and Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 13:43:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Given this woman's own words, I think your 'example' is right on the target, too. This is a hate crime, plain and simple. It should be prosecuted that way!

Subject: please ignore nt From: test To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:25:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: xx

Subject: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:57:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The infuriatingly enigmatic goofball poster who calls himself Quiet makes the following strange claim: I was approached by people, over three months ago now, about going back to the 'fold' so to speak. There is supposed to the meetings before Amaroo. I know other people who are in the areas of law, accountancy and information technology who had been approached. Other people, I also know, have not been approached. This is not a local occurrence, I know that happening at least three states. We Aussies move around a lot but we keep contact with our friends. To me, this seems ridiculous for several reasons. Mind you, the whole cult's ridiculous, then, isn't it? So could anyone who's more up to date on the inner workings comment? Is there any possible way this could be true, this bit about people like illiterate law students and other people in the fields Q mentions ever being 'approached' like that? I'm probably foolish for asking but, well, any ideas?

Subject: Re: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: The Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:08:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, I'm goimg to stick my neck out on this one.You can choose to believe me or not.Q's claim to the contact he mentions is as you aptly described it RIDICULOUS! The team here is just not that organised and frankly,not that pushy. He may well be confusing a few well meaning people's personal efforts with some kind of zealot push. It's pretty simple.You like? - you stay.You dont like? - goodbye.. I have my own opinion and I'm afraid Q wouldn't like it. There are no meetings.There is no agenda.Any-omn involved has known what they are doing for some time. Q's perspective is fascinating to say the least. You could find yourselves chasing foxes down the burrows.....And as you seem to be aware I am in a position to know what's going on.. Sorry Q but you simply can't shine shit.. The Cat

Subject: Re: Any plausibility to Q's claim? From: Livia To: The Cat Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 08:28:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Delusions of grandeur plus a large dollop of self-promotion, laced with lashings of irrelevance. 'Q' is a pain. It's so nice here without him. With love, Livia

Subject: I read it rong ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 09:07:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Delusions of grandeur plus a large dollop of self-promotion, laced with lashings of irrelevance Sheesh Livia, for a minute I thought you were referring to the masterful Malibu guru of the halls! LOL OP

Subject: Re: I read it rong ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:16:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, he could have learnt it at the master's feet, I suppose... Love, Livia

Subject: Feet Fetish From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:20:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at the master's feet Now that was a phrase that had us all spellbound for ages! At first it had theological, allegorical and mythological connotations. This became physical - pity I could never afford the big bucks that were required to sit at or near the front row! warmly OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:51:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the master's feet is a great place for people with pathological low self-esteem. Feels just right! Lots of love, Livia, slightly drunk on a Friday evening in England

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 18:12:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....slightly drunk on a Friday evening in England ditto England as well - but what the hell lets be a bit more precise - London, but no way thinking of feet! LoL And lots of love back to you .... OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:06:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And when did you exit then? What did it for you? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:56:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia Approximately 18 months ago. The clear evidence of how Marahaji was actively involved in using mindf**k techniques in dealing with people that he blamed when things went wrong. Up to that point had known, via EPO, about all the other stuff but somehow managed to rationlise that as having no bearing. warmly OP

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:40:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cheers Opie. And btw how long were you a premie? (Sorry, I'm just incorrigibly nosey by nature) I received K in '72. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Feet Fetish, booze and Jazz ... From: opie To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:29:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh Livia It was just by chance I had a look at this message thread which is now buried so far below. Happy to discuss off line if you wish. opie6121@yahoo.com much love

Subject: bullshit From: St. Piligram To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:54:19 (EST) Email Address: St Piligram@hotmail.com Message: Now that I've had a chance to read this I can say almost all of your facts are wrong and you need some psychological help.

Subject: It's just food for your mind, SP. From: Richard To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 00:35:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In 1976 when Bob Mishler decided M was not to be revered, he and others responsible directly to M, quietly left their service. As an ashram premie, who had moved into the ashram initially because of Mishler's impassioned talk in Atlanta in 1973, I felt it my responsibility to find out why he and others close to M were leaving. So I asked one who I knew could provide the answers. His comment was simply 'You don't want to know, it's just food for your mind'. His comment became a Zen Koan over the years. It was an act of both kindness and a challenge on his part. Kind because he knew I was still enchanted with M&K. A challenge to my intellect because he knew I had one. At the time I chose to not pursue it because I really didn't want to know. Over 20 years later, the truth was waiting for me in the words of the late Bob Mishler and the words of others who have stepped forward to tell their stories. So to you, Saint Piligram (Pilgrim?), and anyone else who thinks EPO's facts are wrong and we need pschological help, I have something quite simple to say. It's just food for your mind and it's your choice to feed your mind or let it starve.

Subject: I respect that fact.. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I respect the ability you bring to your profession and your belief in it. Yes, our legal system beats most others, the Salem Witch Trials come to mind and the justice handed out by governments akin to the Taliban are models not to be followed. I could not do what you do, however someone has to. I even have a hard time doing sometimes what my profession dictates. I guess this paints me as all too judgemental of my fellow humans. For instance, why transplant a liver into someone who knocked out their native liver with drugs and alcohol? Why not give the organ to the 30 yr. old mother of two young children who lost her liver to Hepatitis C via a blood transfusion 20 years earlier? Why transplant a heart into an IV drug abuser who burned out all his valves by doing drugs when you have a 33 year old guy who is dying from myopathy? Yes the system is better than many others. Definately better than what I would devise. Cutting off someone's hand for stealing is a bit much. Shooting a woman in the head for adultery is an example of a punishment which does not fit the crime. Without the checks and balances and rights granted by our legal system this would be exactly what society would stoop to. Take care, I hope you get to defend lots of innocent people in order to counter the truly guilty you defend. Tonette

Subject: You can say?? From: a fly on the wall To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: Now that I've had a chance to read this I can say almost all of your facts are wrong and you need some psychological help. Big whoop. You haven't said anything. If it's ex-premie.org you're referring to, unless you can point-by-point prove any of the facts wrong and come up with some evidence, I'm sorry you're upset after reading EPO and hope you can calm down and be objective. If you're talking about what people are saying here, you need to read EPO. This is just a bulletin board, and factual materials are on EPO. Unless you can discuss this intelligently, you're a great example of the peace and love your Master has taught you, and you might want to reflect on that. buzz Ex-premie.org www.ex-premie.org

Subject: Re: bullshit From: Livia To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:40:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you're talking about ex-premie.org, my reaction on first reading it about 2 years ago was: 'my God, what's wrong with these people!' I thought they were all well and truly 'in their minds' and in the business of scandal mongering, bitching, carping, you name it. I read it once and then didn't go back there. Two years later I got online at home and had another look. This time, something about some of the impassioned writing gave me pause for thought. (Aaargh! The dreaded word! Thought!!!) Actually, what made me think again was reading Bob Mishler's interview. I remember reading this when it was first published in the 70's, and being horrified. I decided he was a 'manmat' (remember that word?) and dismissed him completely. I was too much in thrall to Maharaji to even want to consider for a moment the veracity of anything he was saying. This time when I read it, it was as if the scales fell from my eyes. The man made perfect sense. He came across as intelligent and clear. Back then I just couldn't see it. I then read Mike Dettmers, Mike Donner and then the facts about x-rating. About Jagdeo. And then I thought long and hard about Jagdeo, and Maharaji's total lack of any response whatsoever to any of Jagdeo's child victims. And the fact that Jagdeo is still out there, touring. And I thought about how actions speak louder than words, and about love and compassion. I read about Maharaji's affairs too, and I could hear my premie voice saying 'but what does any of this matter?' And then I looked at myself and saw how far I had left my discrimination behind when it came to evaluating Maharaji and his actions. And I wondered about this, and wondered and wondered. You should wonder about all of this too, St Piligram, if you have any genuine integrity left in you. Mine had been severely compromised after 30 years, and I am only just beginning to see how much. Why were these x-rated activities deliberately kept from us? Why has Jagdeo been allowed to continue? Why does Maharaji drink so much cognac, according to the reports of countless premies who spent time with him? Why after 30 years of doing what he asks in all sincerity are premies not considered equipped to talk freely about the Knowledge to interested comers? Think about these questions, come up with some answers and I'll tell you who needs the psychological help maybe. With regards, Livia

Subject: explain please NT From: Salsa To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:24:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: bullshit From: Sir Dave To: St. Piligram Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:16:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fine. Which facts are wrong? Maharaji's excessive drinking, smoking, drug taking, procuring of premie women for one night stands? Maharaji's inability to stop Jagdeo from sexually abusing children or Maharaji's failure to bring Jagdeo to justice or help the victims of said abuse? I mean, you should be more explicit if you refute what people say, otherwise your words are meaningless.

Subject: IT MUST BE From: silvia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:23:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the hit and run accident when m killed a person and a premie took the blame. Or is Michael lying? Growing up is painful sometimes...

Subject: St Piligram: A Troll Post From: gerry To: silvia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 16:31:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This post 'bullshit' is a classic troll. What these trolls don't realize is every time they post here, they provide fodder for the gristmill. Every bad point about Maharajism is reiterated and repeated. It helps bring new readers up to speed. Gawd bless the Trolls!

Subject: Another Troll post From: A Troll To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:33:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Ima Troll ! :)

Subject: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:19:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below Livia talks about how local programs have been deader than a door-knob without the spontanaiety of pwks speaking. Maharaji's videos/DVDs/satellite transmissions have been doing all the talking about the possibility (sick) of knowledge for what, the last 10 years or so. His followers of thirty years apparently haven't got a clue. Quite the indictment. In m's supreme arrogance he thinks that the reason propogation has dried up in the west is because of pwk's concepts. Nothing to do with his use 'em, then lose 'em approach to his servants. Nothing to do with the regal opulence he has grown so accustomed. Nothing to do with the never-ending funding missions for M's latest whatever. Nothing to do with the facts on EPO. Although I haven't seen the Atlanta Training video yet I read Joe's account of it here. I read John MacGregor's account of the training sessions at Amaroo and CrisP's account of the local KITS. I feel that these corporate trainings with their emphasis on team-work, synchronous synergies, suppressing individualism and (god knows) linguistic profiling, might work well in the manufacture of widgets but in terms of presenting knowledge, the only purpose it is probably serving is that no one thinks for themselves and/or questions the master. In other words, the corporate trainings are the new-fangled way for Maharaji to control and exact obedience from his followers. Corporate training in the wrong hands becomes a sinister form of manipulation and mind control. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Dep To: Pullaver Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:30:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does the Master have to be a mensch? I keep thinking about that post 'To the good Deputy' from Richard II in which he raised the possibility that 'the accusations against Maharaji -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.' Richard II also said, 'To a student of life what matters is knowing. Knowing what? To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. If he fits our model for a leader we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master?' So, does the Master have to be a nice guy? Why should our standards apply? I mean look at Jesus. - he hung out with publicans, and sinners, - his mother didn’t recognise him as the Master, - he attended parties where wine was served so was probably not a teetotaller, - his best women friend was a hooker, - he went into a rage at a temple and overturned tables, - he used an expensive balm for his feet that would have fed a family for a year, - there are some who even say he might have even been bisexual, r.e. references to the 'disciple Jesus loved' and verses like John 20 and John 13:23 – 'Now there was leaning on Jesus’s bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.' - he made all kind of outrageous claims about himself that angered people. So does a Master have to be a nice guy? Interesting point. Maybe his showing us the 'timeless' is all that matters and our morals and values are irrelevant. Hey, just playing the devil’s advocate for a minute. And you did ask us to discuss. IMO Richard II did bring up an interesting point, one I had not considered.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:26:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another way of looking at it was that Jesus wasn't a Master either, but just a master. Our concepts about Jesus are even more deeply engrained than our concepts about Maharaji were. Hence, Maharaji, feet of clay, Jesus, feet of clay. Maybe there's never been a master with a capital M. Maybe there's no such thing. Love, Livia just playing devil's advocate too - or not?

Subject: I'm having a flashback From: Francesca :~) To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:18:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it 1973? or 1977? or is it 1981? Purple haze? Dog, you said: So, does the Master have to be a nice guy? Why should our standards apply? Dear Dog, this is Premie 101. Premies (myself included in my own day) have been rationalizing Maharaji's behavior since he first hit the West, and saying things like you've just said. Funny that my gut reaction in 1972 was that the whole thing was a scam, with a little meditation on the side. This is the same circular discussion that goes on over and over again on this Forum (and anywhere where there are premies or expremies) about the information on EPO. In fact, it's the core reason why premies can ignore what is on EPO and still call M their Master. So it looks like you are coming full circle here. What the heck is a Master any way? And who needs one in order to feel peace, love, happiness or just simply to live their life? --f

Subject: Good post, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:41:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a really good post. I never thought of that. I mean, like the satsang of M's I just posted above, Jesus had a donkey, don't forget. Great points, Dog. It's good to see you thinking so clearly now. It's soooooooo much different than before you 'became an ex'. LOL!

Subject: Thanks, Jim From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:00:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a really good post. I never thought of that. I mean, like the satsang of M's I just posted above, Jesus had a donkey, don't forget. Great points, Dog. It's good to see you thinking so clearly now. It's soooooooo much different than before you 'became an ex'. LOL! --- When you scroll up to the home page of Forum VI you will see the following: This forum focuses on issues directly related to our association with Maharaji and his organization, Elan Vital (formerly Divine Light Mission.) It is intended as a forum for rational and civil discussion for as wide a variety and number of people as possible. I was responding to a question Pullaver raised about morals and if they have anything to do with teaching meditation. I'm glaaaaad you liked the post. I'm now thinking of posting some piece of shit about a woman who hit a guy with her car and let him die on her windshield in her garage. Stay tuned! NLOL

Subject: Reposting Dep Dog: 3/5/2002 From: Pullaver To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:42:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post Richard II. You raise a very interesting point that I quite frankly had not considered. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Hmmmmmmm. Sheeeeeeesh! What a question! A few nights ago my wife told me that she doesn’t mind what I feel about Maharaji as long as I 'strive to be like a lotus.' I think this is excellent advice. Is that a good enough answer? I think I can be a student of life without being a student of Maharaji. Suppose I accept your premise that the Master’s only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. Shouldn’t he also teach us by example, and not simply by imparting meditation techniques? Shouldn’t he have to work a little bit to earn our respect and admiration as well? And how can I tell my friends about this man. 'Here take this video. Maharaji will show you how to go inside and contact the truth. Oh and by the way, he also drinks excessively, smokes like a chimney, runs around on his wife, killed a guy with his car and had someone else take the blame, continually asks for money to spread Knowledge but uses this money to live an obscenely extravagant lifestyle . . . etc.' How special is that? How many students is this Master going to have? If anything, having a lousy reputation is bad for business. He should know that. And what if the allegations have no relevance concerning Maharaji as Master? Well IMO character is important even for a true Master. I simply can’t take advice from a person who says one thing and does another. Some might even call this type of behaviour hypocritical. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But if Maharaji decides to come clean with his followers, who knows, I might even consider returning (I said consider). After EPO, however, I definitely find it difficult to look at Maharaji as I did before. Sorry Richard II. See I’m a simple 'walk your talk - practice what you preach' kinda guy. And if the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master, that would mean I would have to devalue my values and lower my standards. I don't feel like doing that. I have weighed the stories on EPO and their relevance to my personal first hand experience and I have done what feels right for me. Something has changed. I no longer feel the same way. I have walked, not from Knowledge, but from Maharaji. When I meditate I want emptiness, spaciousness, the void. I have had enough controversial thoughts about Maharaji in my head. If anything, he is now getting in the way. So I now consider myself a post-premie (to use a phrase coined by Mark Appleman). From now on it’s just between me and God. The worst thing that can happen to me is that I don’t go to any more programs. Fine, I can live with that. The past is dead and gone, we can’t bring it back, and we can’t change it. And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. I also choose to believe that everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us. So instead of fussing and fretting about this predicament, I asked myself, 'What I can get out of this that will serve me? How can I turn this lemon into lemonade?' Well, I can thank Maharaji for finally turning me to Buddhist practice. The emptiness and cleanliness of Theravada and Zen Buddhism has always been more suited to my temperament than bhakti yoga. I also feel safer and more confident when I practice vipassana because no fallible human personalities are getting in the way. In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus.

Subject: You missed the word 'rational' From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:32:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Dog, R2, and now you, are civil enough. But is that argument rational? I think not. There's nothing rational about the hypothesis that some supposed 'master' can reveal the secret of live, love and all that crap and bury his opponents in cement, for example. That's just plain absurd and yet that's the argument R2's making and you're stadning up for. No, Dog, that's not rational and is not respectworthy. Not to me, anyway. Maybe others disagree and think this is a completely reasonable issue to ponder. To me, it's beyond the pale.

Subject: Personal Decision From: Joe To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:56:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think everyone needs to decide for themselves whether it's relevent or not. I mean, I think it's obvious that the kind of person Maharaji is, his current lying and revisionism, is extremely relevent to deciding if he is worthy of being one's 'master.' I personally can't imagine how it couldn't be relevent. We also have to keep in mind cult programming, which makes it almost impossible to look objectively at the cult leader, so I would take a premie saying that it's "irrelevent" with a huge grain of salt. But the bottom line is that everyone, premie, ex-premie, aspirant, general public, has the right to KNOW about the kind of person Maharaji is, because Maharaji, himself, has tried very hard to keep the truth about him a secret, and puts out a false picture of who he is. Plus, the fact that he lies about his past, and blames others for what he, himself, did are significant things for people to know, even if Richard 2 chooses not to care.

Subject: Re: Personal Decision From: Dep To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 19:05:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: McDuck To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:06:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my opinion, the corporate training model fits in better with Mr Rawat's worldview than the earlier Hindu devotional model, though hanging on to 'the perfection of the master' helps keep his position as CEO inviolate and unquestioned. He has been influenced by the models of 'success' of corporate America, and the pathological perfectionism has been reinforced by the rigorous demands of flying a plane. He even writes a list of the toiletries to take with him, fer christ's sake. He has expressed his admiration for the efficiency of the Coca-Cola corporate model, and Japanese workers laying cable at breakneck speed. There is obviously something to be said for the 'synchronisation' achieved by Japanese gangs and Coca-Cola, but examination of the philosophy behind the effort doesn't seem to come into play in Mr Rawat's model. Having allegedly dispensed with the Hindu training, which doesn't fit the corporate model, the Hippies which first adopted it in the West had to go, too. He has described the Hippies as 'incredibly irresponsible', no matter it was they who arose from their psychotropic stupor to spread the good word and organise the first infrastructure. So it's a training model, in which everyone is dispensable (you give your individuality to the team, after all), fuelled by generalisations. Actually, it's probably an ad hoc scat jazz training model, informed by the law of the jungle. When Dr Pascotto has outlived his usefulness, some strange new flower will rise from the undergrowth to replace him. Whatever gets you through the night…

Subject: Maharaji's 'world view' :) From: Joe To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:34:08 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: It makes me laugh even to think of Maharaji having any kind of a 'world view' except that whatever it is, it involves himself as the center of it. He has been influenced by the models of 'success' of corporate America, and the pathological perfectionism has been reinforced by the rigorous demands of flying a plane. He even writes a list of the toiletries to take with him, fer christ's sake I think for Maharaji this has mainly come from watching lots of television, and an extremely superficial view of those kinds of 'corporate' and 'working' models that he gets from reading magazines and talking to corporate-type premies, or more likely corporate-type premie wannabes. Maharaji's exposure to the world is so abnormal, so insulated, so, again, superficial, that everything is theory. Maharaji has never had to run a profit-making organization because he always fell back on 'donations' from premies which he either spent on himself, or largely otherwise wasted on his latest whimsical idea of what might work in regard to propagation. There have been many of these, all failures, for which he takes none of the blame. He has also been able to rely on lots of free, slave labor of those same premies. The thing about Coca-Cola is that it has to constantly demonstrate that it is ever more successful, making a profit (more return per stock share), holding on to market share from the ever-encroaching Pepsi Cola, always striving for greater efficiency, etc. Maharaji doesn't do that, doesn't have the skills to do that, and could not have possibly learned that from the kind of bizarre, worshipped, unaccountable life he has lived. He also has not had to deal with an actual workforce, or even management, because the essential element for those around him is devotion, not other forms of success, and when that fails, he just disposes of people and replaces them with the next victim. It might be, however, that he is running out of replacements these days. He also doesn't practice any of the "corporate America" principles, in which management is ultimately responsible and heads roll for failures, or even insufficient success. Those principles never touch the Maharaji cult world, at least for Maharaji himself. If any of those principles really applied to Maharaji, he would have been fired a long time ago for extreme incompetence, lying, and general foolishness. What's ironic about Maharaji's disdain of hippies as 'incredibly irresponsible,' is that he always has to return to relying on the hard-core group of aging hippies and their acceptance of Maharaji's extreme incompetence, contradictory statements and actions, etc., to keep himself in the material finery that his whole 'worldview' is all about at its core. Oh, yeah. From what I understand Maharaji has always been extremely anal and compulsive about some things. It's likely he took that to all of his endeavers including piloting, probably courtesy of Mata Ji or whoever toilet trained him, rather having learned in in the course of learning to fly.

Subject: Excellent! (nt) From: Pullaver To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 09:00:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gallowey connection From: Coca-Cola and the To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 16:49:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M's knowledge of Coca-Cola (and model of corporate training) comes from Tim Galloway. Coca-Cola has been a long-time client of Tim's. He's trained Coca-Cola. When instructors were laid off (last round in '80's) Tim got many of them involved in training at Coca-Cola, including Loring Baker and Joan Apter. All the instructors Tim introduced to Coca-Cola were brought on as trainers BUT Rosi Lee.

Subject: It's "Gallwey" (nt) From: Spell Check To: Coca-Cola and the Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 12:43:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: Gallowey connection From: Pullaver To: Coca-Cola and the Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:30:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I kind of guessed that Maharaji was looking towards Galwey or other premies in the corporate training field in terms of coming up with the KITS model. ChrisP told me that this training became the final drip for her. Complete acquiescence to group-think - individuals forced into a tightly scripted mold. But, no matter how many efficiency programs they put in place premies will still be made to wait an hour and a half to get in and the speaker will still be a spoiled and greedy charlatan.

Subject: Re: Oy, this guru is not a mensch. Discuss From: Livia To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:57:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to state the obvious, but I had to take a deep gulp when reading above that Maharaji thought the hippies were 'incredibly irresponsible'. If responsibility is such an important ethic for him, what about the Jagdeo issue, which will NEVER, EVER go away unless he deals with it, and which will ultimately play an enormous part in his downfall. But then Maharaji was never one for practicing what he preached - in more ways than one. With love, Livia

Subject: CyberMeister From: Pullaver To: McDuck Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 01:43:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I gather M is big on 'efficiency'. He likes to flatter himself that he is CEO of Rawat Inc. Conveniently forgetting that he obtained his obscene wealth on the backs of slave labour and continued emotional extortion not because of some slick e-Knowledge. When he said that he has come with more power than ever before we just didn't know he meant that in terms of his digital interface. I was surprised that Moody Blues song opened up the Passages video but I guess one of his fart-catchers hasn't completely forgotten just who has been buttering his bread these last 30 years. Talk about manipulation. The funny part is that he hopes to attract a new generation of seekers (suckers?) with this model, but it's still the old hippy generation that is smart-carding their way into programs. There's a parable in here somewhere - something about pouring old wine into new wineskins.

Subject: Has anyone heard from Brian S? From: gErRy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:05:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't want to have to make this public but you remember that night a couple of weeks ago when brian and I were in SF? Well, that seems to be the last anyone has heard from him. Brian was last seen on Castro street, dressed in a pin stripe suit with white knit shirt and wearing orange alligator boots, walking arm-in-arm with a tall dark skinned man in a long leather coat. Brian, if you're lurking, please call home. It's OK man, really, it is...

Subject: yep From: an email friend To: gErRy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:56:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear gerry, according to my email friends, Brian is hanging in there, but he's physically ill and undergoing treatment for his liver problems. Those who give any credence whatsoever to the extensive medical studies of the Harvard University Medical School and other leading medical schools and research institutions [regarding the power of non-sectarian sincere prayers (and even agnostic positive affirmations) - both verbal and silent], might consider doing so for those people who are currently having a very difficult time right now, medically. btw, I also heard from suchabanana briefly recently, who has been going to the hospital for treatment for his heart and arteries and some major skeletal problems. (Dealing with the cumulative shock of the maharaji cult betrayals, and on behalf of others, also wore him down considerably and affected his health very badly.) Please, let's remember Steve Quint and Cynthia, too, in our thoughts and best wishes. Thanks, one and all.

Subject: Kelly and George too From: Marianne To: an email friend Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:06:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When sending good wishes and healing thoughts for people, please also include Kelly's husband, George, who is quite ill with cancer. Marianne

Subject: that's Right From: gerry To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:02:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who knows me in person realizes I can say or do almost nothing with a straight face. I've been in close contact with Brian and last spoke to him by telephone on Thursday. Thanks to my email friend for saying the hard part. Brian is undergoing a chemo therapy of sorts and it's very difficult as you can imagine. Although he might not respond immediately, Brian would like to hear from anyone who feels like e-mailing him at: bgsmith@teleport.com Jokes are especially appreciated. The guy has more gumbo in his little finger the gooroo has in his whole god-in-a-bod. There he was with the equivalent of the worst flu you can imagine, cracking ME up and making ME laugh. I think I feel worse for him than he does himself! I didn't know the extent of Such's health problems and I join my email friend in wishing him a speedy recovery and best wishes. I miss the li'l swami and look foward to his return. My thoughts are with Kelly and George also. Thanks Marianne for that information. What's beautiful about our little cyber community here is we are once again united to share our lives, our joys and our sorrows. How utterly human and how utterly wonderful.

Subject: Good wishes to all From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:57:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's beautiful about our little cyber community here is we are once again united to share our lives, our joys and our sorrows. How utterly human and how utterly wonderful. Yes, and that keeps me coming back for more. All the best to our fellow travellers Brian, Kelley, George, Such, Steve and Cynthia. And anyone else who feels a bit of pain tonight. Love to you all.

Subject: Thank You From: Steve To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your prayers are very much appreciated. Steve

Subject: The Story Never Ends From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:58:07 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I've been in a psychiatric hospital for the last three months. The program with charanand last fall was the event that led to my breakdown last November, but I also did too much crack cocaine last year. This morning I was looking at the two 'learn Hindi' books that I got out of the library last week. One guy in the smoking room of my word ask me to say something in Hindi and I coudn't say very much - told him about the Hindi videos I used to go to. He said 'Jai Sat Chit Anand'. Received knowledge from Mattias in 1979 and hasn't been to any satsang program in 22 years but still practices the four techniques to this day. Opposite to me - who regrets going to a program last November but hasn't practiced the four techniques in 23 years when they drove me to serious psychosis. The fellow's name is Jimmy Larocque from Ottawa and remembers Jimmy Heller. Hope these stories help someone in some way. I'm going in for hernia surgery tomorrow - please send me your prayers and blessings. With gratitude and love, Steve Quint

Subject: Hernia surgery, should be a piece of cake From: Tonette To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:11:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll be thinking of you. Hernia surgery is quite straight forward and not a difficult procedure. You should do just fine but I know that any surgery is a little scary. Just think of all the great drugs you'll get. And speaking of drugs, mixing crack with any sort of mental illness is like mixing nitro glycerine in a blender. Stay the hell away from that stuff. All of it. Pot included. I hope now you know better when making choices on how to treat yourself. Crack makes everyone nuts and unbalanced. Geez. I'm glad to see you are getting the help you need. Healing from a breakdown can be a long involved process but when you come out the other end the srides one makes from the ordeal can last a lifetime. I'll be thinking of you, Take care and hang in there, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: All the best with your surgery From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:43:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, I wish you the very best with both your physical and psychological healing. From what I've read from you so far, you appear to have the strength and resolve required to heal completely.

Subject: All the best with your surgery, Steve [nt] From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 22:05:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: March 2002 Scheduled From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Date: 3/4/2002 2:34:49 PM Eastern Standard Time From: infoevsofl@earthlink.net (InfoFlorida) Reply-to: infoevsofl@earthlink.net To: infoevsofl@earthlink.net March 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Sunday 3 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Learning More Event 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Phoenix, Arizona USA Nov. 21, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 55 minutes Sunday 10 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Toronto, Canada June 14, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 14th. Duration: 49 minutes Sunday 17th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Preparing for Knowledge Event: This event is for people preparing to receive the techniques of Knowledge. People who have already received Knowledge are also welcome to attend. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Enjoying Knowledge Alexandria, Virginia USA June 17, 2000 Taken from an event held in Alexandria, Virginia on June 17, 2000. Duration: 44 minutes Sunday 24 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA Nov. 19, 2001 A program from the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 52 minutes Sunday 31 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in Boston, Massachusetts USA June 12, 2000 This broadcast was taken from the 1st of 2 events held on June 12th. Duration: 44 minutes aprox. TWO IMPORTANT CHANGES TO BROADCASTS 1. Important! New Broadcast Times! Beginning on Sunday, March 3rd all Sunday broadcasts will move to a new time slot. The broadcast will begin at 5:00pm PST (8:00pm. EST). 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE Anyone who subscribes to DISH can access the broadcasts. The channel number and the time to tune in are all one needs. There is no need to contact Visions in order to view the broadcasts. The broadcasts are generally on Channel 9602 and occasionally on 9601. Go to the DISH on-screen programming guide and select the program titled ³Maharaji.² Broadcast schedules are posted on the Visions website at www.visionsinternational.org SPONSORSHIP These broadcasts are supported by the Visions Broadcasts and Materials Sponsorship program (regular monthly donations) as well as through special contributions. Sponsorship is available at any level to anyone who wishes to support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharaji¹s message to people all around the world. For information, please call the toll free sponsorship line at 1-888-610-0500 or visit www.visionsinternational.org. Your support is greatly appreciated. To confirm information on video events, call: (305) 270-4768 English (305) 270-4770 Spanish For recorded information about events that Maharaji will be attending: (818) 889-0500 English (818) 889-1717 Spanish For those interested in finding out more about Maharaji and Knowledge: (818) 879-1500 English National Mail Order Library Phone #: (800) 603-0319 Other resources available: http://www.maharaji.net To order video and audiocassettes or satellite transmissions, contact: Visions International at: (805) 496-4777 or visit their Website: http://www.visionsinternational.org Thank you very much Info Miami Miami Communications Team infoevsofl@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: March 2002 Scheduled From: PatD To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 2. Thursday broadcasts will be discontinued for the present time as of March 1, 2002. He never could be bothered to show up,loadsa times,back when he was starting out. This is where I came in... Never judge the master.Hang on,I've seen this movie before.

Subject: Those videos From: Lesley To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:56:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all, they were pretty much just straight records of Maharaji talking at an event. Not literal exact records, no doubt, obviously a fair bit of editing goes on, but nonetheless, they were just of Maharaji giving one of his speeches. Then we started to get compilation videos, with grabs of Maharaji's speeches interspersed with photographic essays. M flying his plane, M driving a tractor, M walking away from the camera, M mooching around looking at the sky, M flying a kite, M going through customs, M driving a car. Also, there was M, the family man. And those retrospectives, with their double edged sword of reminding the oldies of their premie roots whilst making newbies feel they missed the boat. It wasn't long before there was a fair amount of waterfalls, waving grass, leaf floating on water, close up of flower, bird on grass stalk, sea breaking on shore added in too. Followed by ticking clocks, babies faces, city streets, renaissance art. And, of course, shots of devotees started to appear in increasing numbers. From the odd shot of a blissed out premie responding to his Master at a program, we progressed to long photographic essays of Indians lining up for darshan, Africans dancing for joy, M graciously attending a Japanese tea party, M graciously answering a devotee's question (usually how can I serve you), M being serenaded by his African cooks, M being waved to as he drives away. A video that sticks out in my mind is one where M's portrait, framed with fuzzy yellow is interspersed with waterfall and beautiful Japanese woman saying thank you and bowing her head. This was repeated for various nationalities, each one with someone saying thank you, and either implicit or stated, I love you. I think the thing that you have got to remember is that we wanted to like what we were watching. Of course there was a part of you that was thinking 'I don't believe this is happening, why am I sitting here watching water fall, why am I watching a film which is nothing but person after person saying thank you to Maharaji' but, with repetition, one accepts it. And, when you think about it, the only way to accept what you are watching, is to accept that Maharaji is worthy of that love and gratitude. Talk about empty calories! What a powerful, yet singularly unsubstantive way to reinforce the emotional bond a premie feels towards Maharaji. A funny funny aspect to this is that the photographic essays were popular with the regular video viewers, you didn't have to strain your brain around the speechmaking!

Subject: God's gift to humanity From: Will To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:26:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What kind of human being has the capacity to get up on a stage and tell people that he is God's gift to humanity? And keep a straight face? And what kind of person can actually believe that about himself? Even for a moment. Who, in their right mind, would offer countless videos of himself speaking, or walking, or driving, or just gazing about? The answer is that such a person is defitinitely not in his right mind. Any normal human person would be overcome with embarrassment to act like that. What does it feel like to sit on the Amaroo stage and have all those middle-aged ignoramuses standing there adoring you? Wouldn't it be wonderful if, instead of Rawat's face on the big screen, there could be a written print-out of the thoughts going through his mind. What can he possibly be thinking???? And what are those people thinking? They're nuts. I should know. I was one of them. It's nothing but fantasy, pretend-playing. 'Oh there is my true Beloved, the Beloved of us all!!!' It's a game for children, who refuse to grow up. It's so easy to become an ex-premie. All you have to do is be honest with yourself. Be authentic. Don't allow wishful thinking to lead you. Not even one more step. It doesn't hurt to give up the fantasy, (just a wee bit at first). It doesn't hurt to be authentic. Premies like Richard II claim that, to them, Maharaji and his gift of Knowledge, is indeed God's gift to humanity. They claim that the gift that they enjoy is so precious that all the 14 objections just melt away into oblivion. But what about the objection that Maharaji has nothing to offer people, nothing to give, that we don't already have by our very nature and the nature of the universe? What has Richard II experienced with Knowledge that is so studpendous? I'd wager that he hasn't even stuck his big toe into Truth. If Truth came and played peek-a-boo with him, he'd run away screaming. Here is Rawat's lie: 'It has to be a gift from one person to another person, from the Master to the student.' Rawat sells people their own watch. His students are the biggest fools on the planet. I'd like to take a big wake-up stick and hit all of my premie friends over the head with it. But since I don't own a wake-up stick, I might just take an ordinary stick and use that. Or maybe I'll just vent on Forum 7. But no, waking up is a gift we give to ourselves, when we're ready. Self-honesty is what we acquire when we grow up. It doesn't hurt, when we're ready. Yes, it's so incredibly easy to become an ex-premie, so much easier to take off that cloak than it is to put it on, and to continue to wear it as it disintegrates. And when you do, it is the devotion directed toward Prempal Rawat that melts away into oblivion as if it never existed, because it never really did.

Subject: Re: God's gift to humanity From: Lesley To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:03:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My guess is that while he is talking, he's okay, but the hardest bits must be the darshan line and the meditation review sessions, when he just has to sit there and take it, lol! Well said, Will. He must think he's god's gift to humanity, the idiot.

Subject: Re: Those videos From: OTS To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:07:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Lesley. I couldn’t agree more. After a while, there was no more enjoyment from the videos at all because the editing was so heavy. All jokes, stories and curse words removed. No laughing allowed, I guess. (Easy sleepin listenin.) But it was those slow motion shots of him from his compound in India -- in ironed silk pajamas with brown shoes slowly walking, walking, walking . . . those brown shoes and the souls of the brown shoes, over and over and over; mesmerizing -- that were the final drips for us. For a few years, we always used to say afterwards, “If I have to watch one more slo-mo video of him walking, I’m going to scream.” Finally, I thought, why get hoarse? Just leave. Easy. As an aside, I got a call this week from my former service supervisor at Amaroo wanting to know if I’d received my “invitation” she’d sent to me to come and “work” again this April there. I had to tell her that I was no longer a premie or EV volunteer. I still love her and her husband. They’re great. It was so much fun working with them last year. She wanted to know if it were anything that she had done that had turned me away. I told her, no, I still love my premie friends. I hope I’ll see here again, and we agreed that our belief systems are no barrier to our friendship, but I doubt I’ll ever see her again. I’m very close now to finally paying off the debt on my 1999 and 2001 trips to Australia and looking forward to better financial health. My outlook on life has definitely improved.

Subject: Re: Those videos From: Lesley To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:31:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, I take my hat off to the people here who have watched the recent videos. I figure it was enough for me to have gone back one last time and watched him in action, no more videos for this lil black duck. I remember when I was newly exited saying to a premie friend that it had turned into a well packaged spiritual path for the wealthy. What about all the Indians, and Africans, he asked, with a smile. Wallpaper, I replied, part of the packaging. Like the shot taken of me listening in rapt attention, someone pointed out to me that it was used in more than one video. Good to be out, isn't it, now I think I'll go and watch my own waterfall which is running again with the recent rains, or perhaps a bird perched on a swaying palm frond, or perhaps I can follow, with rapt attention, the footsteps of the man up here to clear the branches from the powerlines, now that's not a bad idea...... All the best, Lesley

Subject: I think I'll go watch my own... From: Eric To: Lesley Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 09:33:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: waterfall. That sums it up well, Leslie.At a stage in our lives we were suggestible to what we deemed the path to elightenment according to our beloved MASTER. We bought a belief system that sadly was appropriate for where we were at. We endured endless satsangs, videos,cult manipulation, etc., all willing with an open heart and mind. well sooner or later that good ole bullshit detector hardwired into us kicks in . Call it common sense, an awakening , personal empowerment, epiphany, refusal to being a sap and victim, a premie identity is shattered and a huge burden lifted. GUESS WHAT ! I don't need you Maharaji . I'm fine just the way I am. You are not worthy of my attention anymore.You are now irrelevant, buddy.Your pedestal was constructed on shaky ground. As Jimi Hendrix would say...'Castles made of sand, melt in the sea, eventually .................wishing you all well....E.

Subject: Are you new here, Eric? From: JHB To: Eric Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:33:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If so, a very warm welcome:-) If not, forgive me for missing your arrival. If you haven't already done so, do you want to share a little of your story? Of course, you are under no obligation or pressure to do so! John Brauns

Subject: Re: Are you new here, Eric? From: Eric To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 15:55:08 (EST) Email Address: celestica77@yahoo.com Message: Thanks for the welcome ,John, but I'm not new here. I post now and then and enjoy the forum's lively discussions.Drop me a line if you like. Sometime I'll have to post a journey entry if I can get my wife to type it as I'm a retarded typist. ...good tidings... E.

Subject: Welcome anyway! From: JHB To: Eric Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 18:53:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't get time to read everything here, and especially on all the other forums. A journey would be good:-) All the best, John.

Subject: So what IS he thinking? From: Disculta To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:28:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, really? When he's not speaking, and distracted by the sound of his own voice? When the new technology comes out where you can direct a beam and someone and get a print-out of their thoughts, I bet the final drips will be a real waterfall! But perhaps we have some psychics here on the Forum who don't need the technology and can already tell us what he's thinking (in darshan, while pretending to meditate, etc.)! I'm not feeling funny today, but if anyone wants to give this a shot, I'd love to read it. love ktd

Subject: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Sara Porter To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Ex-Premies, The purpose of this letter to you on this forum is to explain something important about Cynthia. She has asked me to write on her behalf because Cynthia is unable to address these issues herself at this time. She has made this request of me and together we decided it was appropriate for me to write this. My name is Sara Porter. I met Cynthia when I was ten years old. Now I am twenty. I don't have the ability to speak. My only means of communication is to write. What I am going to explain to you will sound weird. Everything I tell you is true. I never was a premie or a devotee of Guru Maharaji Ji and I never received the Knowledge. It's important that you note that because it is true. I never met Guru Maharaji Ji and I only heard about him through Cynthia. I am one of eighteen alters or personalities who live inside Cynthia's head. Multiple Personality Disorder is real. Last night after a long conversation between all of the adults which exist inside our body and head we discovered that another alter or personality has emerged who is an eight year old child. That is as far as we got in this discovery and more exploration has to be done. This child has been preventing Cynthia from functioning well by causing insomnia for many weeks by causing disturbing nightmares. It's a girl who is enraged about something also undiscovered and her characteristics besides her age are yet to be known by Cynthia and the rest of the group inside Cynthia's head. Cynthia is afraid to write this letter because she has been ridiculed in the past for being too emotional here. The emotional aspects that have erupted on this bulletin board were not a search or quest for sympathy or even empathy-Cynthia knows how unbelievable MPD is to many here and in the world. It is a stigma to have such a strange disorder. Most people who have it keep it a secret because of the disbelief and ridicule. Cynthia is a fearless woman. A long time ago Cynthia revealed her situation about her diagnosis of MPD and was then banished from Forum 4 because some people did not believe in MPD and Cynthia's admission. Some did not believe that Cynthia even existed. She was placed under a microscope and accused of making letters here under too many names and it was not true. What happened at that time is in the past. Cynthia has never overcome that however. That is why she has always written her letters here with her real life name, Cynthia J. Gracie, not a fake one or alias as you call it here. The only exception to that is sometimes she would post as Scorpio-II, Chief of Security. She communicated this to the forum administrators to avoid confusion about the second alias. Scorpio-II is not an alter it is just a made up name. Cynthia is in a deep depression right now. She takes medications but often they do not work. It is hard to explain about that. Often when someone with MPD takes medications for depression and anxiety and phobias they do not work for other parts. It is not the fault of medications. It is the difference in the needs and characteristics of all the parts that cause these medications not to work sometimes. Cynthia thought she was finished with therapy but is not. Cynthia worked long and hard to discover all the parts inside her head and brain and is saddened and exhausted by the discovery of yet another child part who needs attention. This has caused many of the recent eruptions of misplaced rage that have been written by Sydney. Sydney is a warrior and she has been the ultimate rescuer and protector of Cynthia since early childhood. Sydney is the part that swears like a sailor and globalizes all the rage and smears it anywhere without discretion. Sydney does not apologize for anything she does or says. Cynthia does that for her because it is her job as the core or host person. Sydney has grown up a lot over the past few years and with Cynthia agreed to remain in her room inside Cynthia's head. It was not that Sydney was banished-people with MPD cannot banish alters. This plan was for Sydney to live quietly and learn to behave appropriately. Recently Sydney has stormed out and taken over causing a lot of chaos within Cynthia's internal system of alters. Whenever Sydney comes out inappropriately it gives Cynthia bad headaches. Bad headaches are a characteristic of switching. Lately, because the alters have been in chaos it has been like a revolving door. That is how Cynthia describes frequent switching between alters. No medication helps these headaches. No medication helps with sleep. Cynthia does not expect anyone to believe in MPD. Some people do and some people do not. It is a lonely way to live because of the disbelief however. Cynthia has not left her house for three months. She has been practicing stepping outside and taking about ten paces from the door. Her husband Thomas loves her very much and encourages her and helps her to feel safe even when panic hits so very hard she is so very scared. Cynthia will not be posting anymore on the forums. This decision was also made last night during our inside conference. On the outside Thomas also agrees it is not good for Cynthia to be logging on to this place even though Cynthia is so very commited to the abused ex-premies. Why did Cynthia choose me to write this? That is easy. I never was a premie. Cynthia was the premie. Cynthia is ultimately in charge but as I told you she is very ill right now. Cynthia does not want sympathy. She does not even expect anyone to believe all this even though it is all true. Cynthia has given up trying to explain MPD here and everywhere else. She does not consider it her responsibility anymore to try to convince anyone about a real emotional disorder. She gives that responsibility to you and others in her life who have rejected her because of her honesty. Cynthia wishes with all her heart and soul that scientists would do research on MPD because it is a real thing. She does not hold bad feelings for anyone here except for some of the mean people who are called trolls who wrongly have called her psychotic. That is untrue. Cynthia wishes that the ex-premies here would learn not to call names by using terms related to mental illnesses or emotional disorders. She also wants you to know that she does not have any organic mental illnesses like schizophrenia. That mental illness is different and often people confuse it with MPD. Therefore, on behalf of Cynthia J. Gracie I am saying good-bye. She won't be back to respond so you can answer this however you wish. That may not be polite in a forum but necessary to Cynthia's health. Some day when she is feeling better and able to function and is feeling whole again maybe she will return. There are no guarantees about that. She asked me to say good-bye for her. Sincerely, Sara Porter, on behalf of Cynthia J. Gracie from Vermont

Subject: love to Cynthia From: Susan To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 13:00:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do not understand the complexities of your disease, I only know that you have shown me extreme kindness and I hope you can heal.

Subject: My love to you Cynthia From: Nottm Bunny To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 10:57:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cynthia Thank you for arranging the detailed post explaining your present situation and long struggle with MPD. Of everything I have read on the forums over the last three to four years your story has probably moved me more than anything else (which is saying a lot). It is so far outside the experience of myself and anyone I have known, including by the way, the painful mental illnesses of both my mother and my sister. I completely agree that MPD should not be confused with these. I don’t know you Cynthia, but I have been consciously reading your posts for around 6 months, in the way I make a habit of reading posts by particular exes. I found your contributions to be intelligent, thoughtful and sensitive. I had noticed a change in tone in your posts over the last week and now the reason for that is clear. I really wish that there was something practical, helpful and supportive that I or someone else here could do. For what it is worth to you, please remember that you do have the affection and good wishes of many people here, including myself and others who do not post. I still believe that love is the most powerful and potent force in the world. I hope that you will find successful and peaceful resolution to your torment and that, with the support of Thomas and your loved ones, you are soon able to actively enjoy the wildlife and beauty of Vermont again. And thanks again for your support for the bunnies. Thinking of you, with my love and fond best wishes, Bunny P.S. Should you ever want to, you can reach me through Marianne.

Subject: Sara Porter From: bill To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 09:03:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is no option but to decide to stop. No medications will do that. Cynthia is not being helped by this . YOU Sara Porter must vanish from Cynthia's thoughts. You are not real. Hold a conference and tell everyone that you all are doing her harm and for the years remaining in Cynthia's life, you will all leave her alone and let her enjoy simple pleasures and real freinds that have thier own bodies. One per body. If you all love her, then you will hear what I say next; IF YOU DONT GO AWAY, PEOPLE WILL PUT CYNTHIA IN A ROOM AND NOT LET HER BE FREE TO LIVE. SHE WILL LOSE HER FAMILY AND FREINDS AND HER LIFESTYLE. YOU ARE FICTIONAL AND NOT NEEDED FOR HER TO UNDERSTAND AND DEAL WITH LIFE. LEAVE HER NOW AND STAY AWAY FROM HER FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. OUT NOW. ALL OF YOU. EVEN THE CUTE LITTLE ONES. GO

Subject: Why not make up some funny characters? [nt] From: bill-invent great freinds To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 08:48:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: replace them with happy, loving, ice cream eaters. [nt] From: bill-drop the boring freinds To: bill-invent great freinds Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 08:51:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Jim To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 22:09:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynth, Took a while to respond because I wasn't sure what to say. Well, I'm still not. Whoever you are, however many you are, we'll miss you. Come back when you can. We'll definitely miss you. :(

Subject: a time for everything From: wolfie To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 08:16:37 (EST) Email Address: none Message: oh what can I say? So much phemomenas are possible in human beings, too many dreams in ones little exitenence. Pain appears to me more real than my wellbeing. Sometimes I look in the mirror and wonder how someone can look so strange like me and sometimes I like what I see in the mirrow and sometimes I don't. I'm sad I'm funny, I'm mean, I'm cruel and sometimes sweet and one day life goes on without me and this feeling comes and grows like a new season in my exitence, I fear it and it pleases me. Why I write this? It came to my mind cause I wanted to react to Chynthias story and cause I like to be a human being and I hope the peotic side of human beings will take over the prosaic side. somtimes life is too much to take ............love ...wolfie

Subject: MPD is very real and very rare From: Tonette To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:40:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! What must she be going thru? I hope and pray that she is allright. Thank God for her husband. Take care of her Tom, she's a beautiful person. I'll miss her. Tonette

Subject: Re: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Sir Dave To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:21:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have MPD but I do suffer from chronic fatigue syndrome (also called M.E.) and fibromyalgia and consequently my state of being is often bad and I don't feel part of the human race, more like a raised corpse. The reason why such long term illness can make one feel seperate from others is that one can't do the things that other people take for granted - like have an active day without feeling totally exhausted for days afterwards. It is that feeling of ''seperateness'' from the rest of the human race that can make long term illnesses difficult to cope with. Having understanding friends really helps and I appreciate such friends tremendously. In your case, you certainly have that here, in spades and hopefully in ''real life'' too.

Subject: To Thomas. From: PatD To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:19:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always admired your wife's point of view here & the information about hidden things that she brought to light. Good Luck: Patrick Dorrity,Stratford-on-Avon,England.

Subject: Cynthia From: Vicki To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 11:06:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been away taking care of a very ill mother and am saddened to read Cynthia needs to leave. I consider her one of the most insightful and intelligent people here. Her articulate writing ability is always a pleasure to read and educational as well. If not for her, many things that took place at Decca would never have seen the light of day. Not knowing much about MPD, I can only say it must be difficult and Cynthia has worked very hard to live her life. One thing I would like to offer is that the gum additives in food has/is causing many brain dissorders, especially excruciating headaches and 'voices'. It comes in many forms, the worst culprit being xanthene (sp). It is put in food products ranging from liquid drinks to ice cream, sour cream, cake mixes, etc etc etc. Finding foods free of these gum additives might provide some relief. It plays havic with brain chemistry. Take care Cynthia. I feel enriched having known you via the forum. Someday maybe you can come out to the west coast with your husband for one of Pat's infamous Latvian gatherings. -Vicki

Subject: Re: About Cynthia J. Gracie From: Lesley To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:25:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Sara, Give Cynthia, and all, my best wishes. She is a brave and caring woman who despite insisting on her lack of education knows rather a lot, and has been very helpful to me. Best regards, Lesley

Subject: Love to Cynthia J. Gracie From: Francesca To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:10:07 (EST) Email Address: notinherent@yahoo.com Message: And love to each and every one of her alters, because they are a part of her. I don't have any reason to doubt what she, or you, is saying. Peace and love, Francesca

Subject: Big group hug for Cynthia and friends From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:22:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks again for being tough enough to stand up and tell us like it is for yourself. And thanks to Sara for bringing us the news. My email inbox is always open. Love you Cynthia. Richard

Subject: Be Well +) From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:38:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Sara and Cynthia: Please be well. Barbara +)

Subject: Yes indeed From: Disculta To: Barbara Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:29:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's wishing you all happy times! love Katie Darling

Subject: :O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O) From: Bert,Ernie and Big Bird To: Sara Porter Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:08:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WHOA:P :O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O):O)

Subject: Hey Cynth and Sara and all From: Gerry gErRy and gerry To: Bert,Ernie and Big Bird Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:57:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We love you. Come back when you are feeling better.

Subject: To Cynthia From: Livia To: Gerry gErRy and gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 06:04:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cynthia, I don't know if you are reading this any more, but if you are, this is to say how much I have appreciated your clear, passionate and heartfelt posts over the last few weeks. You have responded caringly and lovingly to many of us here, myself included, and I'm certain you have helped many in more ways than you can possibly imagine. You have been very much appreciated and will be missed. Take good, deep care of yourself - our thoughts are with you. With much love, Livia XX Email me if you you ever want to at liviadowte@hotmail.com

Subject: Raskolnikov 'R' Us From: Gregg To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:26:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dostoevsky's 'Crime and Punishment' is known as one of the earliest of 'psychological' novels. Whereas most novels had been plot-driven, this one is mostly about Raskolnikov's inner turmoil. The main event in the novel is his murdering an old pawnbroker, and this occurrs just one-fifth of the way through the novel. Rereading the novel, I am seeing it especially as a masterful exploration of not people in general, but the psychological states of people in their early twenties. Exploring one's sense of self, especially in relation to friends, family, authority, etc., is what adolescence is about. After age eighteen or so, one's concerns expand to one's place in larger society. It is in one's early twenties especially, I've noticed, that people tend to take a theory or philosophy or social movement or religion and totally immerse themselves into it. You can see why I'm posting this observation here, of course. Most of us were of that age when we got hooked into Maharajism. You can think of (or observe) many other manifestations of this twenty-something radicalism. Yesterday I was having lunch with a fifty-something leftist who's still very active in anti-globalization movements etc. Usually he complains about people his age, aging leftists still passionate about esoteric historic splits in the commie/labor movement...as a result, the average person with deep misgivings about the current system wouldn't come near a 'leftist' group. But today he was complaining about the twenty-something anarchists, who like to wear black masks and break things. Where will that get the movement? Well, that question poses issues beyond the ken of those who are caught in the throes of passionate creative nihilism, or whatever they imagine themselves to be caught up in. Raskolnikov killed the pawnbroker, in part, because he so believed in his 'rational' equation about how much better the pawnbroker's money would serve the people than it would sitting around in this old lady's trunk. We, too, were so convinced the power of Truth was behind us that we had no trouble rationalizing the unwholesomely cultic nature of our involvement, something that is obvious to us now, in retrospect. Many of these messianic/apocalyptic/all-explaining philosophies that so gripped us in our twenties lose their allure as we grow older and learn the real value of selfless love, family, work, nature and other such 'worldly' things. But the rewards of submerging oneself into a default family and subsuming one's ego to an all-loving Master are so great, for many, that, decades later, there are still quite a few aging boomers still getting their dopamine rush from the myth of the Lotus Feet. So count your blessings. None of us are still stuck in our twenties (or in The Seventies), nor have we taken an axe to the head of an old pawnbroker's head. BTW, how old are the current aspirants/PWK's? (I realize the sample may be too small to be statistically significant, but still...are they boomers falling apart at the seams, or are they young lost ones?)

Subject: that's a *BEST* From: Roger eDrek To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:24:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent! Good points on the excessive indulgencies of misspent youth.

Subject: Aspirants:Youngish with mental problems........ From: PatD To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:34:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....in my limited experience.

Subject: Premies' secret secret From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:56:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on LG some premie reckons that Gerry's secret ID, which is only known by Gerry is also known by the premie. This secret ID is something to do with Gerry's heart or something-or-other. This secret exclusiveness is mind numbing. Do premies really believe that they have a monopoly on the heart? Who made them think this way? Of course, it's all those Maha videos they're watching every week, year in, year out. You know, it's not doing them any good. Someone should tell them.

Subject: And the 'heart' is just a squishy word From: Francesca To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:17:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I sometimes use the H-word myself for lack of a better word, it is the word for a range of emotions or a particular state of mind/feelings. If you sat individuals down and asked them to define it, it's different for everyone. Merriam-Webster's has several definitions, including: * the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature; * one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations; * the central or innermost part; * the essential or most vital part of something. All those descriptions certainly indicate that whatever it is, everyone has one. And I've got hands too, and a head also, and feets that were made for walkin'. I know what you mean Sir Dave. Like whoop-de-doo! Francesca

Subject: Maharaji's trampled all over the English language From: Sir Dave To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 21:06:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Expressive words are reduced to mere platitudes by the Lord of Trite. Trouble is, his devotees all copy his sayings and don't realise how silly they sound.

Subject: Jim from below, 'god' as reality' From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:16:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember on acid having any 'cosmic' experiences, universal one love ones etc? Same in meditation? We were so naive that if we thought we'd experienced 'god', then it must have been because 'god' is real. This generation are much more advanced. If they experience 'god' on chemikals or whatever, they know it's their brain chemistry, and they know that they themselves are key to their interpretations. We were always more literal, Be Here Now, Leary, etc sold because we believed 'that' reality was external to us, a 'real' thing. That's one of the reasons premies who have had very 'real' experiences can be so swayed by gm's 'interpretations'. They are still stuck in our generations literal acceptance of what we experience.I know for myself that those experiences let me ride the 'lila' thing for way too long, because I was so certain it was really permeating the universe. Nowadays people laugh at such stuff, or at the worse casrry question marks much further into that territory. No accident so few of this generation get sucked into gurus.

Subject: Hi Hamzen: Weened off Lilas From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:08:27 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Been enjoying this debate. I like the idea of being 'weened off Lilas'. But I don't think 'maturity' or 'wisdom' is much to do with fashion or movements although they do of course play a part in a person's life. I don't recognise Lilas anymore but I do get pleasantly surprised by the unknown and it's spontaneous way of popping in. To quote H.L.Mencken: ' Penetrating so many secrets. we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking it's chops.' Neither linguistic phiosophy nor drugs nor religion nor belief can light a candle to the empty handed leap into the void. BTW, did you get my Email? Peace and Love Tim

Subject: You can quote Mencken to me anytime, Tim:) [nt] From: PatC To: Tim G Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 03:47:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: H.L.Mencken

Subject: Seeing as you asked, Pat From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:13:10 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself. H.L.Menken

Subject: Thanks, Tim, and one for you From: PatC To: Tim G Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 13:34:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But this one is about him not from him: Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956) was a libertarian before the word came into usage. His prose is as clear as an azure sky, and his rhetoric as deadly as a rifle shot. Frequent targets of his lance were Franklin Roosevelt and New Deal politics, hygienists, 'uplifters', social reformers of any stripe, boobs & quacks, and the insatiable American appetite for nonsense and gaudy sham. But his life was not defined by negativity. He was positively enthusiastic about to the writings of Twain and Conrad, the music of Brahms, Beethoven and Bach. Now, it's obvious why I like the guy - I like the same writers and composers and dislike socialism - but I thought you were a leftie, Tim. I'm surprised that you quoted him.

Subject: It's different nowadays Tim From: hamzen To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:37:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Feel this generation have taken style to another level, they use it as a way of authenticating whether something is real or not when you have neither the skills or any other way of knowing, and I must admit, concepts blown, that I have learnt bigtime from it. If you think about gm, using that concept we would have seen through him in a mo, his dodgy so thatchererite/reagan suits, his dancing, his music, his poetry, etc etc etc, I took a mate of mine to a video during the early rave days, someone who would have been up for it if it had been authentic, and he was bemused. His exact comment (well as nigh on as memory can allow) was 'that guy is like the worst second hand car salesman I could ever imagine, he's so obviously fake, how the fuck did you ever fall for that.' Still can't explain to him the level of our naivete and openess to possibilities, whatever. We have just accepted that he will never get it, and this geezer has maximum respect for me. I certainly did get your e-mail, and we are well up for it this end, just checking with everyone how they feel about the royalties issue and will get back to yer soon. I must say the timing is PERFECT. Can't wait for the postie to deliver, and to be radically honest, thought I'd already sent an email saying as such, whoops overload this end, if not age & memory. Ain't music glorious, well unless it's the embarrassing doodles prepared by gmj in his VERY expensive studio, what a sad fucker he is, and how embarrassing that no-one is in a position to tell him, and that even if they did he wouldn't hear. The guy doesn't have a clue how much he exposes himself through his 'artworks'.

Subject: Thanks. Got it. Agree? Maybe From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:17:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Ham I guess that's true to some extent although I bet there are still a lot of people who have and then interpret psychedelic visions in the same spiritual light we once did. But I hve your point. I'll think about it.

Subject: Re: Thanks. Got it. Agree? Maybe From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:23:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the % of people who will get sucked into stuff now is tiny, certainly in this country, and certainly with e culture. Round 90-92 here the whole e culture thing was getting very 'lovey' 'one love' kind of thing, lots of 'spiritual' or close to spiritual samples used in songs, thewn at the end of 92 there was a massive and very fast change in the other direction, I'm talking VERY fast. They would rather let go of that bliss than get sucked into that shit, street wisdom at its very best, at the moment that vibe is coming back for the first time since then, BUT it is so grounded now, no risks at all. Now I'm sure there will always be kids who are really really vulnerable who will get sucked in, but running alongside the street wisdom has been one about confidence. Remember in the 60's how in hippy culture you'd find so many over sensitive wimpy kids, lacking social confidence, the % now is minmal in comparison. The interpretation of those 'god' experiences now is the street level version of Dettmers academic approach, had a number of chats with people over the last 10 years that made this painfully clear. I had to use that systems/relational approach to ween me off lila and realize it was my construction, and that gm had fed that construction, whereas for these younger people it was built into their social norms.

Subject: E generation didn't pluck ideas from thin air From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:16:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hamzen said: ''This generation are much more advanced. If they experience 'god' on chemikals or whatever, they know it's their brain chemistry, and they know that they themselves are key to their interpretations.'' Of course they are more advanced. They have had the benefit of learning from their parents' mistakes. They saw how we were duped by Hindu gurus and a lot more is known about psychedelics now than was known 30 years ago. None of this stuff was known by us so of course we fell for it. They're only smarter because more research (including joining cults and leaving them) has been done. Their smartness did not appear in a vacuum. It is thanks to pioneers of our generation who REALLY experimented with our lives, brains, drugs, goofy spiritual ideas etc. These kids know that drugs are only drugs not god and gurus all turn out to be conmen - all! Each kid may not personally have read about the effects of entheogenic drugs but perhaps their dads did or their teachers and the skepticism is now part of their paradigm. They got where they have because our generation fried our brains on entheogens and joined cults AND left them. And some people wrote about it especially on the net. We didn't have the knowledge now available and we didn't have the net. No mystery.

Subject: If only human beings were that logical From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:37:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I don't think they are. They got here via a long youth culture debate over 25 years which was more based upon reaction to style than logic. Certainly here the punk anti-hippy stance was a style reaction, and one based upon self value and self worth. They saw how vulnerable and over sensitive we were and reacted against. Hippy shit was then buried here til e culture in the early 90's, and they got very close to going down that route, in fact the extreme hippy end of goa trance is identical in the terms used to us, though more independent thinking than we were. Check out the texts of a web site I'm working on at the mo, http://www.interdimensional-artform.com No I think a lot of it is down to the drugs of choice now, people prefer l;ess psychotropic drugs now in general, but their weakness now is the level of physical risks they take as against psycho risks, as I know only too well from the near death through stupidity of one of my closest friends last year which appalled me. Trying to understand it afterwards, EVERY single one of the people I spoke to, all under 35 had taken regular physical risks that were scary. They might be wiser in one area, but they are stupider in another.

Subject: Re: If only human beings were that logical From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:46:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi ham. You said: ''They might be wiser in one area, but they are stupider in another.'' Too true but, being an optimist, I hope they'll get wiser as they get older. I watched ''The Anniversary Party'' a few nights ago about a bunch of Hollywood types in their 30s taking E at a party. It was an interesting view of how E has become mainstream. Talk about dumb people! Highly recommended movie. Two thumbs up!

Subject: Re: If only human beings were that logical From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:18:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well certainly the near death, and we are talking near death, of one of my closest mates, love her madly, 7 months down the line and she's only just spending her first time on her own has hit her crowd big time. But she was 30 and I couldn't believe how stupid she was, and the guilt she's going thru now is enormous. Gurus no way would they contemplate it in a million years, and she's exactly the kind of person who would have been cult driven in the 60's, loves jesus madly but won't have anything to do with a church, but on alcohol the craziest things, especially the women, some of the stories I heard were insane, 7 floors up the outside of a building for a shag with someone they didn't even care that much about was the worst, but I heard plenty of other horror stories, madness. But for all that I do love the alternative dance crowd, exactly the kind of community and reality and honesty I would have died for during our premie days, jesus rawat was so stupid, any brains at all and he would have followed mischlers ideas, he might have been bogus but it would have been sweet as, and he would have raked it in much longer, ahh but his ego was too big, what an idiot.

Subject: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: Tonette To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:58:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Guru's are out and I agree the young people today are more savy in smelling a fraud but not immune to falling prey to a cult. Especially if said cult is aimed at the issues that are fore-front in today's struggle and correctly identifies a weakness prevalent in our youth. Youth is the single most important ingrediant in order for a cult to take hold by and large. I don't think any generation is immune. We were easy pickings though. Ripe for the taking. Primed by the Beatles, wanting to stop the world from what was surely self destruction, believing in love, idealistic, naieve, inexperienced, ect. ad nauseum. Yep I remember 'cosmic' experiences. I think one of the most powerful was when I mainlined cocaine. Talk about instant knowledge, the experience with coke was similar but much more intense. Instant love, instant clarity, instant truth. And just like knowledge, it was forever transitory, here now, but gone in a flash. And I knew quite quickly from that experience with coke that it was just a ruse. Fun, interesting, but not something I would spend my whole life pursuing. Knowledge however, since it was attached to a cult, was alot harder to discount and disconnect from even after I knew that it too was another ruse. Anyway, just part of my path. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: Sulla To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:55:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But remember that as those part of the brain that were stimulate by drugs made possible for you to experience all that, there is the possibility that the manifestation of God, in the case that he exists, through your brain, could do the same thing. As in meditation, or contemplation or whatever. Remember the Neurotheology experiment? It help me to detach M from my experience, and made me doubt if God had something to do with the experience and also of God existence. I simply don't know anything and I don't have any impulse to look for anything that could fill the empty cup. But I miss that feeling of a superior power taking care of each of us, taking care of me and the ones I love, even when a lot of times it was hard to believe with all this people suffering of hunger, violence and many other things. But maybe is like it's not all God's responsibility, if he exists, since humans are the ones in charge, and responsible for both good and bad in this world. Who knows.

Subject: The Neurotheology experiment From: Livia To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:33:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Sulla, what was the Neurotheology experiment? Sounds interesting... Best, Livia

Subject: Somebody posted it here before. Here it is again: From: Sulla To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:07:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, somebody posted and article about it here in the forum a couple of months ago.I kept it, so here it is: (Previous Message) (Next Message) (Next Thread) (View Entire Thread) (Message List)Posted: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:48:35 (EST) [] Original: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 02:21:29 (EST) Posted by: cq Recipient: John Macgregor Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) Subject: Re: Neurotheology - the original link Message: I think the link was to a Newsweek article, originally published May 7th 2001. Just to save trawling the archives, here it is again: Mystic visions or brain circuits at work?   Religion And The Brain   In the new field of “neurotheology,” scientists seek the biological basis of spirituality. Is God all in our heads?       By Sharon Begley NEWSWEEK       May 7 issue —  One Sunday morning in March, 19 years ago, as Dr. James Austin waited for a train in London, he glanced away from the tracks toward the river Thames. The neurologist—who was spending a sabbatical year in England—saw nothing out of the ordinary: the grimy Underground station, a few dingy buildings, some pale gray sky. He was thinking, a bit absent-mindedly, about the Zen Buddhist retreat he was headed toward. And then Austin suddenly felt a sense of enlightenment unlike anything he had ever experienced. His sense of individual existence, of separateness from the physical world around him, evaporated like morning mist in a bright dawn. He saw things “as they really are,” he recalls. The sense of “I, me, mine” disappeared. “Time was not present,” he says. “I had a sense of eternity. My old yearnings, loathings, fear of death and insinuations of selfhood vanished. I had been graced by a comprehension of the ultimate nature of things.”           CALL IT A MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE, a spiritual moment, even a religious epiphany, if you like—but Austin will not. Rather than interpret his instant of grace as proof of a reality beyond the comprehension of our senses, much less as proof of a deity, Austin took it as “proof of the existence of the brain.” He isn’t being smart-alecky. As a neurologist, he accepts that all we see, hear, feel and think is mediated or created by the brain. Austin’s moment in the Underground therefore inspired him to explore the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experience. In order to feel that time, fear and self-consciousness have dissolved, he reasoned, certain brain circuits must be interrupted. Which ones? Activity in the amygdala, which monitors the environment for threats and registers fear, must be damped. Parietal-lobe circuits, which orient you in space and mark the sharp distinction between self and world, must go quiet. Frontal- and temporal-lobe circuits, which mark time and generate self-awareness, must disengage. When that happens, Austin concludes in a recent paper, “what we think of as our ‘higher’ functions of selfhood appear briefly to ‘drop out,’ ‘dissolve,’ or be ‘deleted from consciousness’.” When he spun out his theories in 1998, in the 844-page “Zen and the Brain,” it was published not by some flaky New Age outfit but by MIT Press. Join Sharon Begley for a Live Talk on Thursday, May 3 at noon EDT to discuss 'Neurotheology' and its theories and how they differ from what you might believe.         Since then, more and more scientists have flocked to “neurotheology,” the study of the neurobiology of religion and spirituality. Last year the American Psychological Association published “Varieties of Anomalous Experience,” covering enigmas from near-death experiences to mystical ones. At Columbia University’s new Center for the Study of Science and Religion, one program investigates how spiritual experiences reflect “peculiarly recurrent events in human brains.” In December, the scholarly Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted its issue to religious moments ranging from “Christic visions” to “shamanic states of consciousness.” In May the book “Religion in Mind,” tackling subjects such as how religious practices act back on the brain’s frontal lobes to inspire optimism and even creativity, reaches stores. And in “Why God Won’t Go Away,” published in April, Dr. Andrew Newberg of the University of Pennsylvania and his late collaborator, Eugene d’Aquili, use brain-imaging data they collected from Tibetan Buddhists lost in meditation and from Franciscan nuns deep in prayer to ... well, what they do involves a lot of neuro-jargon about lobes and fissures. In a nutshell, though, they use the data to identify what seems to be the brain’s spirituality circuit, and to explain how it is that religious rituals have the power to move believers and nonbelievers alike. What all the new research shares is a passion for uncovering the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experiences—for discovering, in short, what happens in our brains when we sense that we “have encountered a reality different from—and, in some crucial sense, higher than—the reality of everyday experience,” as psychologist David Wulff of Wheaton College in Massachusetts puts it.         OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE        What all the new research shares is a passion for uncovering the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experiences—for discovering, in short, what happens in our brains when we sense that we “have encountered a reality different from—and, in some crucial sense, higher than—the reality of everyday experience,” as psychologist David Wulff of Wheaton College in Massachusetts puts it. In neurotheology, psychologists and neurologists try to pinpoint which regions turn on, and which turn off, during experiences that seem to exist outside time and space. In this way it differs from the rudimentary research of the 1950s and 1960s that found, yeah, brain waves change when you meditate. But that research was silent on why brain waves change, or which specific regions in the brain lie behind the change. Neuroimaging of a living, working brain simply didn’t exist back then. In contrast, today’s studies try to identify the brain circuits that surge with activity when we think we have encountered the divine, and when we feel transported by intense prayer, an uplifting ritual or sacred music. Although the field is brand new and the answers only tentative, one thing is clear. Spiritual experiences are so consistent across cultures, across time and across faiths, says Wulff, that it “suggest[s] a common core that is likely a reflection of structures and processes in the human brain.”         There was a feeling of energy centered within me ... going out to infinite space and returning ... There was a relaxing of the dualistic mind, and an intense feeling of love. I felt a profound letting go of the boundaries around me, and a connection with some kind of energy and state of being that had a quality of clarity, transparency and joy. I felt a deep and profound sense of connection to everything, recognizing that there never was a true separation at all. On the Cover: Science & the Spirit A look at the relationship between religion and the brain • Religion And The Brain Is God all in our heads? A look at 'Neurotheology' and the biological basis of spirituality • Faith Is More Than A Feeling The problem with Neurotheology is that it confuses spiritual experiences with religion         That is how Dr. Michael J. Baime, a colleague of Andrew Newberg’s at Penn, describes what he feels at the moment of peak transcendence when he practices Tibetan Buddhist meditation, as he has since he was 14 in 1969. Baime offered his brain to Newberg, who, since childhood, had wondered about the mystery of God’s existence. At Penn, Newberg’s specialty is radiology, so he teamed with Eugene d’Aquili to use imaging techniques to detect which regions of the brain are active during spiritual experiences. The scientists recruited Baime and seven other Tibetan Buddhists, all skilled meditators.         TESTING FOR THE TIMELESS AND INFINITE        In a typical run, Baime settled onto the floor of a small darkened room, lit only by a few candles and filled with jasmine incense. A string of twine lay beside him. Concentrating on a mental image, he focused and focused, quieting his conscious mind (he told the scientists afterward) until something he identifies as his true inner self emerged. It felt “timeless and infinite,” Baime said afterward, “a part of everyone and everything in existence.” When he reached the “peak” of spiritual intensity, he tugged on the twine. Newberg, huddled outside the room and holding the other end, felt the pull and quickly injected a radioactive tracer into an IV line that ran into Baime’s left arm. After a few moments, he whisked Baime off to a SPECT (single photon emission computed tomography) machine. By detecting the tracer, it tracks blood flow in the brain. Blood flow correlates with neuronal activity. Source: Newsweek         The SPECT images are as close as scientists have come to snapping a photo of a transcendent experience. As expected, the prefrontal cortex, seat of attention, lit up: Baime, after all, was focusing deeply. But it was a quieting of activity that stood out. A bundle of neurons in the superior parietal lobe, toward the top and back of the brain, had gone dark. This region, nicknamed the “orientation association area,” processes information about space and time, and the orientation of the body in space. It determines where the body ends and the rest of the world begins. Specifically, the left orientation area creates the sensation of a physically delimited body; the right orientation area creates the sense of the physical space in which the body exists. (An injury to this area can so cripple your ability to maneuver in physical space that you cannot figure the distance and angles needed to navigate the route to a chair across the room.)         SELF AND NOT-SELF        The orientation area requires sensory input to do its calculus. “If you block sensory inputs to this region, as you do during the intense concentration of meditation, you prevent the brain from forming the distinction between self and not-self,” says Newberg. With no information from the senses arriving, the left orientation area cannot find any boundary between the self and the world. As a result, the brain seems to have no choice but “to perceive the self as endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything,” Newberg and d’Aquili write in “Why God Won’t Go Away.” The right orientation area, equally bereft of sensory data, defaults to a feeling of infinite space. The meditators feel that they have touched infinity.         I felt communion, peace, openness to experience ... [There was] an awareness and responsiveness to God’s presence around me, and a feeling of centering, quieting, nothingness, [as well as] moments of fullness of the presence of God. [God was] permeating my being.         This is how her 45-minute prayer made Sister Celeste, a Franciscan nun, feel, just before Newberg SPECT-scanned her. During her most intensely religious moments, when she felt a palpable sense of God’s presence and an absorption of her self into his being, her brain displayed changes like those in the Tibetan Buddhist meditators: her orientation area went dark. What Sister Celeste and the other nuns in the study felt, and what the meditators experienced, Newberg emphasizes, “were neither mistakes nor wishful thinking. They reflect real, biologically based events in the brain.” The fact that spiritual contemplation affects brain activity gives the experience a reality that psychologists and neuroscientists had long denied it, and explains why people experience ineffable, transcendent events as equally real as seeing a wondrous sunset or stubbing their toes.         PINPOINTING SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE        That a religious experience is reflected in brain activity is not too surprising, actually. Everything we experience—from the sound of thunder to the sight of a poodle, the feeling of fear and the thought of a polka-dot castle—leaves a trace on the brain. Neurotheology is stalking bigger game than simply affirming that spiritual feelings leave neural footprints, too. By pinpointing the brain areas involved in spiritual experiences and tracing how such experiences arise, the scientists hope to learn whether anyone can have such experiences, and why spiritual experiences have the qualities they do.                I could hear the singing of the planets, and wave after wave of light washed over me. But ... I was the light as well ... I no longer existed as a separate ‘I’ ... I saw into the structure of the universe. I had the impression of knowing beyond knowledge and being given glimpses into ALL.         That was how author Sophy Burnham described her experience at Machu Picchu, in her 1997 book “The Ecstatic Journey.” Although there was no scientist around to whisk her into a SPECT machine and confirm that her orientation area was AWOL, it was almost certainly quiescent. That said, just because an experience has a neural correlate does not mean that the experience exists “only” in the brain, or that it is a figment of brain activity with no independent reality. Think of what happens when you dig into an apple pie. The brain’s olfactory region registers the aroma of the cinnamon and fruit. The somatosensory cortex processes the feel of the flaky crust on the tongue and lips. The visual cortex registers the sight of the pie. Remembrances of pies past (Grandma’s kitchen, the corner bake shop ...) activate association cortices. A neuroscientist with too much time on his hands could undoubtedly produce a PET scan of “your brain on apple pie.” But that does not negate the reality of the pie. “The fact that spiritual experiences can be associated with distinct neural activity does not necessarily mean that such experiences are mere neurological illusions,” Newberg insists. “It’s no safer to say that spiritual urges and sensations are caused by brain activity than it is to say that the neurological changes through which we experience the pleasure of eating an apple cause the apple to exist.” The bottom line, he says, is that “there is no way to determine whether the neurological changes associated with spiritual experience mean that the brain is causing those experiences ... or is instead perceiving a spiritual reality.”         PRODUCING VISIONS        In fact, some of the same brain regions involved in the pie experience create religious experiences, too. When the image of a cross, or a Torah crowned in silver, triggers a sense of religious awe, it is because the brain’s visual-association area, which interprets what the eyes see and connects images to emotions and memories, has learned to link those images to that feeling. Visions that arise during prayer or ritual are also generated in the association area: electrical stimulation of the temporal lobes (which nestle along the sides of the head and house the circuits responsible for language, conceptual thinking and associations) produces visions.         Temporal-lobe epilepsy—abnormal bursts of electrical activity in these regions—takes this to extremes. Although some studies have cast doubt on the connection between temporal-lobe epilepsy and religiosity, others find that the condition seems to trigger vivid, Joan of Arc-type religious visions and voices. In his recent book “Lying Awake,” novelist Mark Salzman conjures up the story of a cloistered nun who, after years of being unable to truly feel the presence of God, begins having visions. The cause is temporal-lobe epilepsy. Sister John of the Cross must wrestle with whether to have surgery, which would probably cure her—but would also end her visions. Dostoevsky, Saint Paul, Saint Teresa of Avila, Proust and others are thought to have had temporal-lobe epilepsy, leaving them obsessed with matters of the spirit.         Although temporal-lobe epilepsy is rare, researchers suspect that focused bursts of electrical activity called “temporal-lobe transients” may yield mystical experiences. To test this idea, Michael Persinger of Laurentian University in Canada fits a helmet jury-rigged with electromagnets onto a volunteer’s head. The helmet creates a weak magnetic field, no stronger than that produced by a computer monitor. The field triggers bursts of electrical activity in the temporal lobes, Persinger finds, producing sensations that volunteers describe as supernatural or spiritual: an out-of-body experience, a sense of the divine. He suspects that religious experiences are evoked by mini electrical storms in the temporal lobes, and that such storms can be triggered by anxiety, personal crisis, lack of oxygen, low blood sugar and simple fatigue—suggesting a reason that some people “find God” in such moments. Why the temporal lobes? Persinger speculates that our left temporal lobe maintains our sense of self. When that region is stimulated but the right stays quiescent, the left interprets this as a sensed presence, as the self departing the body, or of God. Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire). They also tend toward fantasy, notes David Wulff ...         I was alone upon the seashore ... I felt that I ... return[ed] from the solitude of individuation into the consciousness of unity with all that is ... Earth, heaven, and sea resounded as in one vast world encircling harmony ... I felt myself one with them.        Is an experience like this one, described by the German philosopher Malwida von Meysenburg in 1900, within the reach of anyone? “Not everyone who meditates encounters these sorts of unitive experiences,” says Robert K.C. Forman, a scholar of comparative religion at Hunter College in New York City. “This suggests that some people may be genetically or temperamentally predisposed to mystical ability.” Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire). They also tend toward fantasy, notes David Wulff, “suggesting a capacity to suspend the judging process that distinguishes imaginings and real events.” Since “we all have the brain circuits that mediate spiritual experiences, probably most people have the capacity for having such experiences,” says Wulff. “But it’s possible to foreclose that possibility. If you are rational, controlled, not prone to fantasy, you will probably resist the experience.”         MEASURING SPIRITUAL FORCE        In survey after survey since the 1960s, between 30 and 40 percent or so of those asked say they have, at least once or twice, felt “very close to a powerful, spiritual force that seemed to lift you out of yourself.” Gallup polls in the 1990s found that 53 percent of American adults said they had had “a moment of sudden religious awakening or insight.” Reports of mystical experience increase with education, income and age (people in their 40s and 50s are most likely to have them).         Yet many people seem no more able to have such an experience than to fly to Venus. One explanation came in 1999, when Australian researchers found that people who report mystical and spiritual experiences tend to have unusually easy access to subliminal consciousness. “In people whose unconscious thoughts tend to break through into consciousness more readily, we find some correlation with spiritual experiences,” says psychologist Michael Thalbourne of the University of Adelaide. Unfortunately, scientists are pretty clueless about what allows subconscious thoughts to pop into the consciousness of some people and not others. The single strongest predictor of such experiences, however, is something called “dissociation.” In this state, different regions of the brain disengage from others. “This theory, which explains hypnotizability so well, might explain mystical states, too,” says Michael Shermer, director of the Skeptics Society, which debunks paranormal phenomena. “Something really seems to be going on in the brain, with some module dissociating from the rest of the cortex.” Newsweek On Air: God and the Brain         THE NEURAL BASIS FOR RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE        That dissociation may reflect unusual electrical crackling in one or more brain regions. In 1997, neurologist Vilayanur Ramachandran told the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience that there is “a neural basis for religious experience.” His preliminary results suggested that depth of religious feeling, or religiosity, might depend on natural—not helmet-induced—enhancements in the electrical activity of the temporal lobes. Interestingly, this region of the brain also seems important for speech perception. One experience common to many spiritual states is hearing the voice of God. It seems to arise when you misattribute inner speech (the “little voice” in your head that you know you generate yourself) to something outside yourself. During such experiences, the brain’s Broca’s area (responsible for speech production) switches on. Most of us can tell this is our inner voice speaking. But when sensory information is restricted, as happens during meditation or prayer, people are “more likely to misattribute internally generated thoughts to an external source,” suggests psychologist Richard Bentall of the University of Manchester in England in the book “Varieties of Anomalous Experience.”         Stress and emotional arousal can also interfere with the brain’s ability to find the source of a voice, Bentall adds. In a 1998 study, researchers found that one particular brain region, called the right anterior cingulate, turned on when people heard something in the environment—a voice or a sound—and also when they hallucinated hearing something. But it stayed quiet when they imagined hearing something and thus were sure it came from their own brain. This region, says Bentall, “may contain the neural circuits responsible for tagging events as originating from the external world.” When it is inappropriately switched on, we are fooled into thinking the voice we hear comes from outside us.         Even people who describe themselves as nonspiritual can be moved by religious ceremonies and liturgy. Hence the power of ritual. Drumming, dancing, incantations—all rivet attention on a single, intense source of sensory stimulation, including the body’s own movements. They also evoke powerful emotional responses. That combination—focused attention that excludes other sensory stimuli, plus heightened emotion—is key. Together, they seem to send the brain’s arousal system into hyperdrive, much as intense fear does. When this happens, explains Newberg, one of the brain structures responsible for maintaining equilibrium—the hippocampus—puts on the brakes. It inhibits the flow of signals between neurons, like a traffic cop preventing any more cars from entering the on-ramp to a tied-up highway.         ‘SOFTENING OF THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SELF’        The result is that certain regions of the brain are deprived of neuronal input. One such deprived region seems to be the orientation area, the same spot that goes quiet during meditation and prayer. As in those states, without sensory input the orientation area cannot do its job of maintaining a sense of where the self leaves off and the world begins. That’s why ritual and liturgy can bring on what Newberg calls a “softening of the boundaries of the self”—and the sense of oneness and spiritual unity. Slow chanting, elegiac liturgical melodies and whispered ritualistic prayer all seem to work their magic in much the same way: they turn on the hippocampus directly and block neuronal traffic to some brain regions. The result again is “blurring the edges of the brain’s sense of self, opening the door to the unitary states that are the primary goal of religious ritual,” says Newberg.         Researchers’ newfound interest in neurotheology reflects more than the availability of cool new toys to peer inside the working brain. Psychology and neuroscience have long neglected religion. Despite its centrality to the mental lives of so many people, religion has been met by what David Wulff calls “indifference or even apathy” on the part of science. When one psychologist, a practicing Christian, tried to discuss in his introductory psych book the role of faith in people’s lives, his publisher edited out most of it—for fear of offending readers. The rise of neurotheology represents a radical shift in that attitude. And whatever light science is shedding on spirituality, spirituality is returning the favor: mystical experiences, says Forman, may tell us something about consciousness, arguably the greatest mystery in neuroscience. “In mystical experiences, the content of the mind fades, sensory awareness drops out, so you are left only with pure consciousness,” says Forman. “This tells you that consciousness does not need an object, and is not a mere byproduct of sensory action.” Newsweek.MSNBC.com Click on a section below for more news: • National News • International News • Business & Money • Technology & Health • Lifestyle & Family • Entertainment • Opinion • Live Talk Lineup         For all the tentative successes that scientists are scoring in their search for the biological bases of religious, spiritual and mystical experience, one mystery will surely lie forever beyond their grasp. They may trace a sense of transcendence to this bulge in our gray matter. And they may trace a feeling of the divine to that one. But it is likely that they will never resolve the greatest question of all—namely, whether our brain wiring creates God, or whether God created our brain wiring. Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith.         With Anne Underwood                © 2001 Newsweek, Inc.

Subject: To Sulla From: Livia To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:54:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My, that is LONG!!!! Thanks, Sulla - wonderful, and a huge amount of food for thought. With love, Livia X

Subject: Anytime. From: Sulla To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 11:19:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Free Will is what we have supposedly From: Tonette To: Sulla Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:31:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never had a divine intervention personally so I can not say whether there is a God or not. I'm glad lots of people believe in God. The threat of ever having to answer to him it makes man more likely to mind his p's and q's. Try to be good, don't do anything too terrible. Then again, it would be hard to measure the benefit of belief in God against all the war and killing and enslaving that has transpired in the name of God. It's a fact that humans need each other. God does turn a blind eye to suffering, if indeed he does exist. It is up to us to make the best of our world and ourselves. That's just my take without being to whole heartly answer the question. But one thing I do know, without a shadow of doubt, Maharaji ain't the answer and his little circus stunt knowledge trip ain't the truth.

Subject: Re: Maybe not Guru's but any cult will do...... From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:25:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many 20 year olds will fall for all this corporate training crap and quasi-scientific mumbo-jumbo like neuro- and bio-feedback and orgone boxes or their modern equivalents? And they still join the christian churches their parents belong too including that one where Jesus hovers three feet above the ground so as not to come too soon - what's it? Oh the Mormons. And the RC church is sucking kids up in Africa by the thousands still. Those are all mind-bending cults.

Subject: The game never changes From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 00:17:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ability to hogtie and hoodwink a person into the dogma of a particular belief is probably as old as man himself. Executed under the guise of spiritual heath or growth the game is still the same only the wrapping it comes in changes. There really are lots of mind numbing cults when you look at it. I guess it just depends on how dangerous and destructive they are or they become on whether or not a particular cult gains society's attention. I'll never forget the time when the Pope came to Washington, DC. I happened to work with a cardiac surgeon that night after he had been to the pope's event at a large stadium that day. He couldn't shut up about how wonderful it all was and here's the clincher, he actually said 'There's no doubt in my mind now that the Pope is truly a divine being.' And the look on his face and in his eyes, the dazed, glazed bliss look that I can recognize so well was exactly what I've seem in premies faces one two many times. I remember thinking 'there's no doubt in my mind that you, doctor, are being had by a cult.' God, no one is immune. What is it with humans? Are we really that lazy and insecure that we don't want to think for ourselves? Cults seem to be devised to accord power and wealth to one person or a select few by sucking it out of the participants. What do the members get out of it? A belief system, a sense of security and belonging and sometimes that dazed, glazed bliss look. It will be very interesting and quite alot of trouble when all those male Afghan children grow up. Talk about an indoctrination by the Taliban! Maybe we should send the born again Christians over to Afghanistan to reprogram them. What is the RC church btw? Take care Pat Kind Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: The game never changes From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 03:58:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tonette, You asked: ''What is the RC church btw?'' Let me answer it with a quote from your post: ''I'll never forget the time when the Pope came to Washington, DC. I happened to work with a cardiac surgeon that night after he had been to the pope's event at a large stadium that day. He couldn't shut up about how wonderful it all was and here's the clincher, he actually said 'There's no doubt in my mind now that the Pope is truly a divine being.' '' That's the RC church - the Roman Catholic cult to which I once belonged. It's an old and respectable cult which is why it's okay for cardiac surgeons to belong to it. I find it hard to beleive but it seems that otherwise sane people believe in the infallibility of the pope and that he is Christ's top rep on earth as well as the Immaculate Conception, The Ascension, The Assumption and Transubstantiation. Oooh boy! Yep, they worship the pope too.

Subject: may be engaging in illegal advertising? From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 06:59:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a sample but much more info at the link including bait and switch: FALSE ADVERTISING AND DECEPTIVE TRADE PRACTICES Introduction New York law contains a number of provisions designed to protect consumers from deceptive business practices. New York law does not allow for an implied private right of action, which means that the applicable statute must expressly create one.1 False Advertising Any advertising which is misleading in any material respect is considered to be false advertising. An advertisement is considered misleading if it fails to disclose facts which are important in light of what is stated in the advertisement, or facts which are relevant in the light of the customary use of the product. Consumers who have suffered damages from a business' use of false advertising are entitled to file a civil suit for recovery. The Attorney General is also empowered to sue for false advertisement on behalf of the State of New York.2 The use of false advertisement also carries criminal penalties to the extent that it is a misdemeanor under the Penal Law.3 It is also a misdemeanor for an advertiser to overlook or refuse to disclose whether it is a dealer in the goods being advertised. The same penalties apply to advertisers who fail to disclose to the media carrying their advertisement the true name ad address of the advertiser.4 Newspapers, television, and radio stations can not be held liable for false advertising for the false statements in an advertisement. You be the judge www.consumer.state.ny.us/clahm/false_ad.htm

Subject: From: aussie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:26:48 (EST) Email Address: eastfront74@hotmail.com Message: just found a video called 'windows in time'any ex or current prem. interested.

Subject: Postie's Ten-Fold Path :) From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 21:58:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, a word of explanation. This is embarrassing folks but here goes. Unexpectedly, I will occasionally go into a trance and channel an ancient entity named Postie. These teachings should not be confused with my previous forum persona, also named Postie. What follows was written down exactly as it came through me the first time that Postie blessed me with his/her wisdom. He/she called it Postie's Ten-Fold Path. This isn't some cheesy Eight-Fold Path like you may have seen elsewhere. Postie gives us two bonus folds. Richard Postie's Ten-Fold Path I - Always act like you've just heard the cosmic joke. Everyone loves people with a sense of humor so let them know you are a funny person who can laugh at himself or herself. Hey, nobody's perfect so stop trying. II - Never delay in attending to your carnal needs. If God had wanted us to be like angels, She wouldn't have given us genitalia or allowed us to get hungry. As real estate people remind us: 'Get a lot while you're young'. And Postie's favorite aphorism on the subject 'Eat chocolate now, there's none in heaven'. III - Sacred cows make the best hamburgers. In India, cows are treated with love and affection and are fed the very best treats so naturally they would be tasty. The same is true of our most preciously held beliefs. Go ahead skewer those outdated infantile concepts and live a little. IV - Don't hold your breath. This may seem obvious to many but you would be surprised how many people hold their breath in tense situations. Besides your face turning blue, holding your breath can make blood vessels pop in your brain and that's no picnic. V - Never pay full retail. Also known as the Costco Corollary. It would be foolish to spend more than necessary of the green energy you've created. You'll need plenty for your golden years of Postieness. VI - Always wear clean underwear. You've heard this one before but the real reason has nothing to do with what your mom warned you about being embarrassed in the emergency room. The real reason for wearing clean underwear is because it just feels better, silly. VII - Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. Why stress over the small stuff? Relax and you'll live longer. VIII - Laziness is next to Postieness. As we all know, Postie is the living incarnation of laziness. So the lazier you are, the more you become like Postie. And that's a good thing. But remember, the Postier you get, the Postier Postie gets so you'll never catch up to Postie. IX - Always doubt the purity of your drinking water. Remember in school when you first looked at drinking water under a microscope? Think about that ghastly image before you take a drink. X - You can't come home without your car keys. If this one isn't obvious, you shouldn't have a driver license anyway. Now take a few moments to close your eyes and focus on your second chakra. Hmmm, very good. Now you are warmly invited to say the Postie Prayer along with me. The Postie Prayer Postie's Ten-Fold Path is all the wisdom I'll ever need. May I always follow Postie's amazing and humble example. I thank God who, in Her divine wisdom, created Postie for the benefit of all humanity and huwomanity. Amen and Awomen That concludes the teaching for today. If you lovely earth creatures find any value in these words of wisdom, FCFA happily accepts gratitude in the form of Cashier's Check, Money Order, Visa and MasterCard. US funds only please. FCFA also sells quality water filters should you require one. Peace and blessings to everyone, Postie Founder and Spiritual Leader, First Church of the Faulty Assumption FCFA is a non-gender-biased 501c3 charity. All contributions are tax deductible.

Subject: Re: Postie's Ten-Fold Path :) From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 02:47:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What could we want that Postie cannot give? Do we want happiness a quiet mind, A sense of true contentment money cannot buy? All this Shri Postie offers us and more. We owe it to ourselves to dig deep and commit ourselves tenfold, no, one HUNDREDfold to this ten-fold golden way, which only by his/her grace we can walk. Also I have set an example by signing up for his/her (only Postie knows fer sure!) water filter downline. It's so easy! We travel around college campuses buying up old water filters and recondition them for resale by Ampostiefilter. Enthusiastically his/hers, Dissing the culta

Subject: When the Student is Ready , the Master Appears! From: Joy To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 04:47:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At last, some spiritual guidance I can relate to. My gratitude check is in the mail! Do you require a Lear Jet, oh wise one? A fleet of Rolls Royces and Mercedes and Maseratis? Mansions? Darshan tunnels? Your wish is your devotee's command! We will all do our best to make sure this wisdom gets spread to every corner of the globe (or at least that your bank accounts do). What do your devotees get to be called? Post-Its? Infinite pranams at your Lotus (narcissus? tulip? daffodil?) Feet, Jwa P.S. Hi Disculta!

Subject: Joy and Disculta, thank you from Postie From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:00:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postie has told me (in mini-trance last night) to express his/her heartfelt thanks that you two have completely understood his/her message. Pity the rest of those who do not have the eyes to hear or ears to see. Disculta, Postie says to tell you that he/she thinks you are truly wise because you have joined his/her mission of bringing the possibility of pure drinking water to all of humanity/womanity. Surely you will prophet. And dear Joy, Postie says to thank you for so wisely naming his/her devotees Post-Its. Although Postie does not admit to having devotees, he/she actually LOL'd on that one. Important message from Postie: Any vicious and hateful rumours you may have read on the Ex-Postit website to the effect that Postie is really a scam artist is just plain wrong. Richard Spokesperson for The First Church of the Faulty Assumption Never a cult, honest Injun

Subject: Homecoming! From: Opie To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 08:43:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahaaa - Postie not speaking in the first person singular - the true test. Yep Postie, oh divine one, you get my vote, err devotion, err check - oh heck whatever! You are the true avatar - at last I found you. I was for many years marooned on the ship of fools led by the guru of the halls. Then, utter despair, when I jumped ship and was ravaged by the sharks of maya. Now, at last, I can post my self home to the bossom of infinity. No return address required. Yours in wonder and amazement. OP ps Any prassad going? Please post soonest.

Subject: Re: Homecoming! From: Richard, FCFA To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:38:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As Postie has said numerous times, Many are cold but few are frozen. Opie, you are truly blessed as you have seen the way, the truth and the light as revealed by Postie. Now you are truly frozen in his/her wisdom. This morning, as I was reading your words of love and devotion, Postie came through me in an unexpected spontaneous channeling, or 'spono' as we call it. Postie's message to you is, Dear Opie, feareth not the sharks of maya. One day, all of humanity shall know that sharks are people, too. Once the sharks of maya have begun to practice Postie's Ten-Fold Path, they too will manifest as their true selves. They are just confused humans who have not yet seen the Path.' Prasad-wise, when Postie is speaking through me, he/she manages to scarf up about anything laying around. Let's see, I could send you a half eaten rice cake or what's left of a tofu hotdog, OK? And thanks for the green energy gratitude FCFA has received from you. Richard, Spokesperson for the First Church of the Faulty Assumption

Subject: Re: Homecoming! From: Opie To: Richard, FCFA Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 05:33:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could send you a half eaten rice cake or what's left of a tofu hotdog, OK? Ok? Ok? Yeah definitly OK! Oh wise one you are so kind to give a choice to the ravaged one. Please post the what's left of the tofu hotdog to: 31334 Anacapa View Dr, Malibu CA 90265 Must rush, oh infinite one, Serenity my yacht awaits. Pranam oh frozen one Opie

Subject: Re: Prasad From: Richard To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 14:07:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Opie, On behalf of Postie, I have sent the Bhogus Prasad tofu hotdog to the address you gave. I hope you don't mind that it went certified COD. And don't forget the wonderful opportunities awaitng the Post-Its who choose to do Postie prachar by telling the world about the Possibility of Pure Water and offering them FCFA Water Filters.

Subject: Are Ex-Post-its Post-Toasties? [nt] From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:03:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: b) From: Richard To: Barbara Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:16:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Journey Entry Second Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:26:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: While hanging around krishnasukanand I walked out of two knowledge sessions. The first time I had too many questions and was too excited to sit still. The second time a few days later I wanted to do service watering the garden and was too antsy and excited to sit still. We were told that when the garden came into bloom maharaji and his family would show up in Montreal. Of course it never happened. I was practically living in the ashram and one day I received a message from krishnasukanand that I should go back to the ashram and that if I could, I should go to see him in Ottawa. I had donated all my money to maharaji and and ashram to buy colour tv's for the 'holy family' and didn't even have bus fare to travel the 100 miles to Ottawa. I thought that I already had 'knowledge' so I didn't pursue it until after Peace Flight in April 1977. A lot of confusion over the word 'knowledge' and a bad choice of words for an 'initiation' ceremony in my opionion. I received knowledge from Nadine Lebas on August 15, 1977 after telling her my story. I later found out this was India's 30th anniversary, another strange and 'cosmic' coincidence. I remember the day of my last bachelor's degree exam - April 23, 1977, as upon arriving home from that last memorable exam, in law, I got a call from my sister informing me that Peace Flight would occur next week - another cosmic coincidence, so I thought. Some people expressed the interest to hear more of my story - I'll post more laster if there's still interest. Thanks everybody for your feedback and of course, more is very much welcome. All the best, Steve

Subject: Yes more, more From: Francesca To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:42:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, Definitely this is interesting, and has encouraged me to get started on mine soon. I did a bunch of writing that I never finished, and maybe I should try the installment method as well. By the way, you said: . I received knowledge from Nadine Lebas on August 15, 1977 after telling her my story. I later found out this was India's 30th anniversary, another strange and 'cosmic' coincidence. I don't think you meant India's 30th anniversary! Bests, F

Subject: Re: Yes more, more From: Steve Quint To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:08:49 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: What you mean? I've tried to put in a link, but links don't seem to friendly or easy to use in this bulletin board. In case it doesn't work try: www.itihaas.com/independent/15aug47times.html or type August 15, 1947 into a good search engine like Google.com All the best, Steve Itihaas Times www.itihaas.com/independent/15aug47times.html

Subject: Ask a question, learn some history From: Francesca To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:13:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, you meant India's independence. Thanks for the info. Oh, and hey, the link worked fine. You've finally got the hang of it. It works super actually, if you only have one link. With more than one, you have to do the html just like on F5. Saw your post above. Hope all goes well. Best wishes, Francesca

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Second Installment From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:37:21 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Above shoudld have read: 'I was practically living in the ashram and one day I received a message from krishnasukanand that I shouldn't go back to the ashram and that if I could, I should go to see him in Ottawa'. I really wish that there was a law about how words are used, in particular the word 'knowledge' in this case. I'd like to see some attempt to objectify how the word knowledge is used and justify how it has been used in maharaji's world. What kind of marks would a good professor give maharaji's people for the use of words such as knowlege. I hope to see some interesting discussion on these web pages. Steve

Subject: More! More. Thanks, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:28:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I will email soon. I've been very busy over on the Sat Chit Chatroom eating some crow.

Subject: pat, if anyone could From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 02:39:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: take crow and prepare it so it tasted good enough to eat, it would be you.

Subject: Yes Steve, More... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:32:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, I too would love to hear more of your story. Cynthia

Subject: Yup From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:00:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me, too, Steve. Might as well tell the whole story. In fact, I had this inter-departmental religion and law class when I was at law school, called 'The Rights of Groups'. My project was writing my whole 'journey'. I really got into it and wrote a long, long piece based on my understandings then in 1988. I wish I had a copy but I don't. You could do yours, though. I just know that in the writing itself a lot of things come to light you might not have thought of.

Subject: Agree, yes Steve, More... From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:58:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said previously, thanks for telling us about yourself. Please tell more as you feel to do so.

Subject: Pathological Perfectionism From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:20:21 (EST) Email Address: Kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Following is an excerpt from a report written by Daniel Shaw, a psychologist who has studied perfectionism and following a guru or master. His basic theory is that a motivation for those following a master is a kind of pathological perfectionism, attempting to devote and attain perfection which is impossible, self-defeating and a miserable experience. His theory is that this tendency is the result of distant, unresponsive, controlling parental behavior. He also says, that these people have as their greatest fear the removal of the preceived love of the master, and hence cling even more strongly almost completely out of fear, and not because they are enjoying the experience of doing so. In fact, the 'joy' and 'love' or 'bliss' people experience is the temporary removal of the fear for brief periods, sometimes in the presence of the master, usually as part of some group experience, or just through constant "reminders" that the perfect love exists. Sound familiar? I can relate to this quite a lot. I think many of us who lived in the ashrams, as well as others, had these tendencies, and I also believe I remained a premie for years despite being quite unhappy, because I feared losing whatever 'perfect love' I believed Maharaji had for me. Anyhow, here is what Shaw says in applicable part: Idolatry and pathological perfectionism can be readily observed in some spiritual paths led by self-proclaimed 'fully enlightened,' or 'perfected' masters, who are worshiped within their communities as perfect, living embodiments of God. This premise, that the master and God are one, sets a standard within the group for spiritual perfection which only the master has achieved. Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets.... While many participate in master-oriented groups for a wide variety of reasons, striving toward the goal of enlightenment through attachment to a perfected master can be particularly alluring to those seeking a miraculous antidote to intolerable feelings of worthlessness. With these people, when the shame-driven, compensatory need for redemption and salvation (and with it, the hope for relief from suffering), it is possible to observe in their attitudes and behavior the workings of an internal masochistic slave, striving desperately to meet insatiable demands for perfection from a sadistic internal master. For them, to be imperfect means to be shamefully bad and defective. Unfortunately, striving for perfection as an attempt to ward off shame only perpetuates, rather than relieves, suffering, for perfection can never be attained. People with this organizing theme who have masters or gurus, either religious or secular ones, have often found in the guru's system the perfect hook to hang all this on. These gurus demand obedience, worship and submission, which are all elements of the 'purification' process required in order to be deemed worthy of serving the master. Those who get caught up in efforts to meet these demands will find any tendency toward pathological perfectionism greatly exacerbated. Such gurus hold themselves out as an example of a person who has attained perfection, which the follower is led to believe he may eventually expect to attain as well, provided he exhibits sufficient effort and devotion. However, since absolute perfection is in fact humanly impossible to attain, there is no amount of devotion or effort that can ever be sufficient to attain what the master is said to have. The disciple, therefore, always comes up short in this situation, no matter how hard he tries, because the game is rigged. The master dangles the carrot of perfection, but gives only the painful blows of the stick of greater effort, ad infinitum. [Common in the background of people who follow masters with this kind of perfectionism] is a history are highly unstable, narcissistic parents, who were both extremely controlling and shaming, as well as neglectful and often grossly unattuned to the emotional needs of their children. Most individuals have great difficulties in thinking about and feeling connected to the traumatic emotional lives they led as children, each almost completely omitting associations to their parents and childhood experiences. Instead, they usually see their suffering and their bad luck as all their own fault, certainly not the fault of the master or guru. Some of our analysands approach spiritual leaders seeking a safe haven and a new beginning (Balint, 1932), a chance to surrender (Ghent, 1990; Benjamin; Maroda, 1999) their rigidly defended, wounded selves to a transforming, opening, healing other (Bollas, 1987). These hopes, when laid at the wrong feet, are too often met with a confusion of tongues (Ferenzci, 1933), a bait and switch maneuver, where instead of finding the longed for facilitation of a safe and transforming surrender, one is met instead with ever-increasing demands for total submission. Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an analyst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation.... I believe it is the withdrawal of love and human connectedness. Such withdrawal is an immensely powerful weapon in the hands of those who are in a position to dominate and control others. When this withdrawal has been traumatic early in life, the search for love that will never be withdrawn, for perfect, miraculous love, becomes desperate. For many, and I stress that I am not suggesting for all, the quest for enlightenment and perfection is accompanied by an underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness. It expresses a wish to magically avoid or escape agonizing disappointments in people by loving only a person or an ideal that is perceived as perfect, someone or something that seems to offer a guarantee of constant, unconditional love. Such guarantees too often come at the price of endless longing, self-punishment and submission.

Subject: It's like a composite From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:18:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dont' think all of it would describe any one person, or that everyone had all these issues, but it certainly is an aggregation of many things said by different individuals on this Forum in the one year plus that I've been reading it. Different lines just jumped out at me when I read it. Thanks for posting it. Bests, F

Subject: Why this doesn't ring true to me From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:11:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, yes, yes, another interesting theory. The problem, though, is that, as far as I recall, the Maharaji cult recruited -- successfully recruited -- people on a much simpler, broad-sweeping and less discriminate basis. One might just as well ask why any new, hot religion spreads the way they do. It's not a matter of the unique, indeed 'pathological', psyches of the new members so much as the social circumstances of the day. For example, all those early mormons joined their church for no other reason than that it was a new fad in a time and place where everyone seemed to be jumping onto one new religious bandwagon or another. When I was 18 living in Vancouver before I joined the cult, everyone I knew was either into some sort of spiritual trip or at least intrigued and talking about them. It was cool. It was exciting. Anyone who was young enough and part of the supposedly hip 'counter culture' was playing along. Why did we do acid? What was the pathology behind that? What kind of parents did hippies have? Really? Yes, I'd agree that if someone in today's typical western environment sought out a guru like Maharaji, something they'd be doing without riding any particular cultural wave, that'd likely say much about their personal motivations and what lies behind them. But that wasn't the case back then. We were just promised a very, very simple path to happiness. It was gilded with all sorts of fake eastern mystic authority, we didn't have to pay for it (or so we thought), we were challenged to see if we were 'open' enough to even check it out and -- big surprise -- we did. By the time we did that, of course, the cult had its hooks in us and many of us took years wriggling free. Simple.

Subject: Two different things From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 12:54:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I think you are mixing up the initial reason somebody might even check out Maharaji (the latest fad, cool thing to do, etc.) and certain psychological reasons why someone would get in and stay in. Plus, I think it's simplistic to say there is just 'one' reason that people would joing a cult like the Maharji cult. And, I'm sure you don't really believe that people became, and remained, Mormoms SOLELY because it was a 'new fad.' Motivations are usually a lot more complicated than that simple explanation, and there is a big difference between reasons for even listening in the first place and sticking in for years. I, for one, was not looking for anything spiritual or religious when I joined the cult. I had had enough of religion and spirituality and had mostly rejected that. True, the fact that there was a sort of coolness to the Eastern influence made it somewhat more attractive than, say, one of the Christian cults, but that wore off pretty quickly, and it was something else that kept me in, this need to strive for perfection and that M would 'perfect' me was certainly a factor, although not the only factor. But even as the author said, that isn't true for everyone.

Subject: No, I don't think so From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:32:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, As I said, I think the main reason people became premies is because of social circumstances that made Maharaji's purported spiritual answer to the mysteries of peace, love, happiness and God realization seem extremely momentous. 'The meaning of life? Yeh right, man, I'm really into that too'. In some sense, asking why people received Knowledge is like asking why they tried acid (which, as you know, Maharaji equated to Knowledge, the latter being superior in that one need never come down on it or so he claimed). As for why people jumped on the first Mormon bandwagon, here's what that New Yorker article had to say about the religious climate then: In 1820, in the little town of Manchester, New York, a fourteen-year-old named Joseph Smith had a visitation. It was a fertile and turbulent time in American religious history. Old beliefs were losing their influence, and new ones were arising that were more responsive to America's revivalist spirit. The upstate region where Smith was living was known as the 'burnt-over district,' because of the religious fevers that continually swept through it. One morning, Smith, who was trying to sort out the claims of truth that each denomination put forward, went into the woods to pray for guidance. He had no sooner knelt than he sensed the presence of a higher power, and felt himself surrounded by darkness. 'Just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the Sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me,' he wrote in a brief memoire. Out of the light stepped two 'personages' hovering in the air, whom he took to be God and Jesus -- 'beings of substance, of form, and of personality,' as Hickley [the current 'prophet' or head of the church] described them to me. Smith managed to ask these beings a question: Which of all the sects was right? 'I was answered that I must join none of tehm, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that 'all their creeds were an abomination in his sight' ' he wrote. A moment later, he found himself lying on his back, gazing up at the empty sky. He went home and told his mother, ... this next part kills me 'I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.' Sounds like a religious feeding frenzy and everyone was geting caught up in it. Well, I know that among my peers in '72, '73, that's not far from the truth either. Now, as to why people stayed, there, too, I would be very, very wary about grafting a theory about why people join, such as Ash's, onto the problem. I think most of us stayed because we believed the bullshit in the first place. Many of those who left left confused, thinking that, yes, it well might have been true but, for, some reason, they'd take their chances. I don't know how much you can read into others being more 'conservative' in the circumstances.

Subject: Speaking for yourself From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:43:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, then it didn't apply to you, Jim. But it did for many others -- just look at the ex-premies here who relate to that theory. And it IS about staying, not just joining in the first place. So many people joined, the vast majority dropping out very quickly. There had to be some other motivation to stay in, and 'believing the bullshit' included, for some at least, believing Maharaji's bullshit that we needed to be purified of our minds.] And your quote about the Mormons doesn't support your initial argument that people joined SOLEY because it was a fad. Sure, there was fertile ground then and in the early 70s, but so what? As I said, the social environment that got you to be open to listening to the trip in the first place, isn't necessarily the same as what keeps you in, despite unhappiness, repression, and all the other negative stuff that went along with it. So, I think Shaw's theory is a good one, but maybe doesn't apply to you.

Subject: Speaking for yourself isn't enough From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:54:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even if people think that the theory explains why they themselves got involved or stayed involved it doesn't mean it's true. Some people just have a real soft spot for these kinds of psychological theories, true or not. For example, look at all the people who get off on the John Bradhsaw 'shame' stuff. Yeah, they'll tell you it's their life story writ large. Doesn't mean it is, though, does it? I think the main reason people stayed is the same reason people stay in any religion: fear. But, whatever, if you want to think it was because we were pathological perfectionists, go ahead.

Subject: Fear -- exactly right From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 14:06:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, fear was the motivation, of even those with the pathological need for perfection, as Shaw says. Exactly right.

Subject: Re: Why this doesn't ring true to me From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:12:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, why do you have such a problem accepting ideas of theory of personality? Joe's description may not have ressonances for you; fair enough. But it certainly seems to for a lot of other people here including myself, and I'm sure a lot of us received Knowledge in the 70's... If our attraction to M and K was merely because it seemed like a cool thing to do at the time, what about all the other people of our generation (most, in fact) who heard about it at the time but got a funny feeling about it and weren't drawn in? I can think of many, and I'm afraid to say they were often the pople with the strongest sense of self. I remember them well. I could virtually predict mentally which of my friends would be open and which ones wouldn't. The people who were the most rooted in their sense of self would come along to satsang and smell a rat immediately. I just thought their egos were too big! Maybe their egos were just too healthy, although I'm afraid to say that never occurred to me at the time.. Joe that was a brilliant post, and clearly explains why some of us have such a hard time totally detaching from this whole thing, even in the face of all the hard evidence. Thank you. With love, Livia

Subject: That's not accurate From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:27:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, It's not that I 'have such a difficult time accepting theories of personality' so much as I was there and remember what happened. For example, I lived in Vancouver in a communal house of ten people. Some were from Montreal, some of the rest of us had met that core group the summer before on the 'free camp' in Jasper, Alberta in the Rockies. We were a city commune with dreams of getting land, starting the ultimate rock band, etc. A hippie grab bag not unlike many other houses in the city. When I came back from getting Knowledge in Colorado, everyone in that group plus several other friends we'd picked up along the way got Knowledge too. The only one who didn't was the one kid who died that same weekend from a freak heart attack. No, Knolwedge was a big, fat fad then and many, many people were getting sucked in. Yes, there's always a question as to why one person bites the hook and someone else might merely nibble the bait but I don't think that 'pathological' perfectionism enters into it. But then I guess I'm just not open-minded enough or something. :)

Subject: Okay, Okay, it's agreat theory, I From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:18:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Pathological Perfectionism From: Disculta To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 04:55:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post and quote, Joe. The idea of 'underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness' is very poignant. And the idea of sadistic domination being all too easily confused with benign love. That kind of sums up the mistake I made. love ktd

Subject: Erotomania and blind love From: Jean-Michel To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 03:48:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Erotomania IMO plays also a big role for many lovers/premies. They totally fantasize their master's love for them (when he doens't even know them in most instances), and keep acting and behaving like they were in love. This ends up in disappointment - but how long will it take to get there - and desire of revenge or hurting the uncaring lover .... like erotomania. Of course most disciples are not of this type, but I'm sure we'll find it in most long term premies and PAMs.

Subject: Re: Pathological Perfectionism From: PatD To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:39:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets.... Until the followers find out the master has rigged the standard in his own interest. Interesting article,but it doesn't have any bearing on my own family background. The sucker punch in all this(for me)is the physical trick of the meditation. Apologies for the short response,dinner is called.

Subject: A Must Read... From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:16:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, The analysis you posted by Shaw hits the nail on the head. Thanks. Also interesting thing to note is that children of alcoholics seek perfection in their own behavior in order to please their parent's, whether one or both are alcoholics. One may be the alcoholic, the other the co-dependent party. This causes havoc in a child's life into adulthood because, as Shaw stated about perfectionism, it's impossible to reach. Many others who have studied alcoholism in families have mentioned the perfectionist qualitiy required. I wonder about m's kids in this regard. They can't have been protected from his drinking all their lives? I wonder if anyone knows about their exposure to his alcoholic behavior? Maharaji is notorious for shaming premies. Work done is never good enough (the strive for perfection), not loving him enough (again, impossible to achieve), not devoted enough (another shaming tactic) are all ways in which m uses people to his own ends. Excellent article.

Subject: Powerful stuff From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for posting that, Joe. Shaw's ideas can be directly applied to M&K. Striving for perfection coupled with the subsequent shaming by M for never being able to achieve it is the fulcrum point that keeps his lever of devotion in operation. This brings up another point. I've noticed that, when confronted by M's lack of real authority, premies will lash out in a childish way. 'Vicious lies! You're all so hateful!', etc. Using Shaw's thesis, this could easily be explained because the challenged premie is really acting out deep childhood pschological issues and defending M&K as a way of defending their own childish perfectionism. Richard, just renewed my Junior Shrink Club membership

Subject: Re: Confusing love and abuse From: Diz To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:15:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very interesting, Joe. I think the general thesis applies in an MJ/premie context, ie that dynamics like this have a role in bringing people to MJ, and in keeping them there. Certainly applied to me to some extent. Mind you, I think much of this is unconscious - premies don't see that this is part of what's holding them in. I think it may even be part of the equation for premies who have some psychological trick for deflecting MJ's demands - and many do, or they wouldn't survive. The need for daddy's love hold people in the fold, even if they manage to tell themselves that Mj's not talking about THEM when he says that premies need to apply more effort etc. This sentence stuck out for me: 'Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an anlayst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation....' Ain't that the way it is. Premies have a hard time in service, Mj tells them they've stuffed up, they may kinda notice that there's elements of what happens around MJ that isn't all that wonderful BUT he 'gives that love'. Not to mention many exhortations to focus ONLY on your own experience, the meditation one that is, NOT on 'externals' like whether his behaviour is ethical, or whether people are getting hurt. Pretty strong hook, and one explanation why logical explanations don't necessarily move premies towards becoming ex-premies. Diz

Subject: Hi Diz From: Joe To: Diz Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are doing well. I think you are right about premies mostly being unconscious that this is a motivation for keeping them in the cult, no matter how unhappy striving for perfection makes them. It reminds me of stories of people in abusive relationships who amazingly think they 'deserve' the abuse or that it's necessary to 'improve' them and that the abuser is doing them some kind of service by abusing and belittling them. I thought what you said was interesting: I think it may even be part of the equation for premies who have some psychological trick for deflecting MJ's demands - and many do, or they wouldn't survive. What kind of psychological tricks are you thinking of? I can recall accepting all the put-downs Maharaji inflicted on us as devotees who couldn't get it together to surrender or devote, about how we were so confused and that it was the general state of humans in this dark age, to always get distracted, and I kind of used that to rationalize why I was unhappy and needed to be 'perfected.' It seemed that the worse I felt about myself and my ability to do much of anything, the more I had to cling to Maharaji and beg him to 'perfect' me. It was so insidious, because the more miserable I was (the opposite of what was promised by Maharaji which got me to receive knowledge in the first place), the more I put on blinders and dug in. So much in the cult is internalized, but there exists this the illusion that people really are making objective evaluations of their 'experience' and their involvement. If they really did, they wouldn't be involved anymore. That's the process that finally breaks the bond. I know I had to get completely out of the cult before I realized that the abusive, strive-for-perfection phenomenon had been going on. While I was still in, towards the end, I just had a vague feeling something was very wrong, but I wasn't aware of what it really was.

Subject: Tricks and vague feelings From: Diz To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 02:07:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, good to hear from you. I don't think ALL premies had 'psychological tricks' for side-stepping MJ's demands. I didn't, I took it all seriously - seemed the only sincere thing to do. I suspect many ex-premies were the same, and that it's partly because we sincerely tried to follow what MJ said that we ended up figuring out that it wasn't real healthy. But I do know premies who would say things like 'how come you take Maharaji so seriously?' I remember once Maharaji himself complained that some premies were taking him literally - this made me mad, because for goodness sake he never STOPPED telling us to listen to him and not our minds, in various different ways. Including all those stories of devotees who used their own judgement when the Master did something really dippy, like using a bucket with holes to get water out of a well, and ended up caste into darkness. Seemed to me he wanted it both ways - to be the one that was always right AND to not have to take any responsibility if he wasn't. This type of mind-fuck was at the core of why I left. However for some premies, not talking MJ literally is an 'out' - if MJ says you should meditate an hour a day, and you don't feel like it, well that's cool. I've heard premies say that MJ's words may be contradictory, or confusing, but that that's just part of the process of muddling the mind so the heart can come through - kinda like the 'lila' argument. And then there's the argument someone was running below that since nothing matters except the experience of K, that what MJ does doesn't matter. I guess it's only a small step then to saying that what he SAYS doesn't matter either. I do think that many premies, particularly those that get close to MJ and see first-hand that he's demanding to an extent that they wouldn't accept from anyone else, have various ways to deal with it. We could probably think of many more. Otherwise what are they doing still there? PS I did put paragraphs in this post, but they haven't shown up in the preview. Apologies if they're not in the post.

Subject: Deserves a place on EPO From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:51:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Insightful observations there, Joe Let's not forget that the selfsame carrot and stick scam which has profitted so many self-styled gurus and avatars, is painfully evident as being an integral part of almost every orthodox religion too. Remember the 'unworthy sinner' that Xtianity (and many other religions) forces one to identify with? And what of the self-effacement that is implicit in the Buddhist ideal of no-ego? Such exhortations to submissiveness actually exascerbate our inherant feelings of 'worthlessness' (ours, courtesy of a history of having powerful religions in control of our various societies) which, as the good Dr Shaw says, cause many people to seek out these 'Saviour' figures in the first place. As for the gurus and avatars themselves - well, guess what game they're playing too?

Subject: Cleansing From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:09:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm also a recovering Roman Catholic and so I know what you are saying about the 'sinner' element being part of the Catholic ideology. It was indoctrinated into me as a little kid that my soul had to be purified to make me worthy of salvation. Have you seen the movie 'Mermaids?' Whynona Rhyder plays the daughter of a wild woman played by Cher. The daughter is always striving for religious perfection, and humiliated by her mother. That was me until I was about 12, although without the Cher-like mother. I went to mass every day for years, gave up candy for Lent, and confessed all my sins. But then by about 13 or so the desires got too great, and then I had to accept that I couldn't do it. It was then I was on my way to secularism until Maharaji came along. Huge relapse there. Of course, Whynona realizes she is a lot like her mother when she meets her hunky boyfriend. I really liked that movie.

Subject: Re: Cleansing From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:48:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Joe! I really liked that movie, too. My husband says I cook like Cher in Mermaids--always serving appetizers and party food. Do you ever watch the show 'Six Feet Under'? One character Michael seems to suffer a bit from religious perfectionsim --- though in the last couple of episodes he seems to be getting over that. Take Care, Jennifer

Subject: Six Feet Under From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:57:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jennifer. Yeah, Cher was always serving snack food, and bizarre hors de vours like hot dogs rolled up in bacon and marshmallows on toothpicks. Appetizers can be great. Be sure to invite me to your next party. :) I think Six Feet Under is one of the most creative shows on TV, although I haven't seen it lately. Yeah, Michael is striving for perfection. Good luck. Thank God for HBO.

Subject: HBO--very OT from goomradji From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:51:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The season premiere was Sunday. It was good. Without giving too much away, the mom was reading a book about how to be accepting of her feelings towards her gay offspring (Michael finally came out to her) and she made a total ass out of herself trying to be 'open' about sex with her kids. I was laughing out loud! (Claire gets in a good line about Jane Fonda.) HBO is the only TV I have time to watch these days: Sopranos, Sex in the City (my personal favorite, because I want to be Samantha when I grow up) and 6 feet under. Television has come a long way since 'Leave it to Beaver.' BTW, the party is here everynight that I cook, so come any time. Mississippi Sin Dip, Chili Con Queso, Jezebel Sauce, Blue Cheese Bites...Food should be fun! snicker. Jennifer

Subject: Six Feet Under correx - OT From: Richard To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:59:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David is the gay funeral director. He's played by Michael C. Hall. I really dig (pun intended) Six Feet Under. I think the show is primarily about relationships and secondarily about death which IMHO is the most taboo subject today. Every character is wonderfully flawed and the stories are engaging. Six Feet Under www.hbo.com/sixfeetunder/cast_and_crew/index.shtml

Subject: Re: Six Feet Under correx - OT From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are right, Richard! David is Michael's character's name :) I agree that the show exposes flaws and dysfuctions in characters and in relationships between people primarily. When they get into talking about some of the things the funeral business does to corpses, it makes me want to be cremated. Not like it will really matter...

Subject: religion has always kept the priest in power From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:16:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and what is the Maha, but 'SuperPriest' personified! PS I'm aware that a lot of well-intentioned people have trust and faith in their various creeds. i just wish they'd examine them with a bit more objectivity.

Subject: Roman Catholics... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 14:29:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am also a child of the RC church. I left it at age 15 because I just couldn't stand the way priests and nuns behaved. Have you ever noticed how so many of them speak the same way, their intonation, the 'above it all' attitude? I have. Yuck! One of my sisters told me that in the 'old school of teaching priests,' prior to Vatican II, priests-in-training were taught not to touch women because women were considered unclean. I had never known that and was astonished. This particular sister of mine knows a lot about this topic. Now with all the pedophilic priests in the news, whose victims have been boys, it makes sense. In New England, Boston, in particular, there has been a lot or reports in the news about these priests and how the church protects them. They (the RC church) behaves as if these abusers don't have to answer to the law of the state(s), but the law of the church. A we'll take care of our own mentality. The archbishop of the Boston diocese (sp?) refused to step down recently, explaining that ''we must keep this and deal with this in the congregational family.'' So they've set up a toll free line, confidential (yeah right) for any abused child or adult to report these priest(s). This sound familiar?

Subject: Got to learn to weed. From: Sulla To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 16:57:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think any human being, including a priest can turn to a pedophile, only because they were told not to touch a woman because they are unclean. A pedophile is a sick person. You can't say that priests, or coaches or teacher are pedophiles, but you can say that a pedophile always finds the way to be in touch with children, the object of their sexual desire and obsession. For that reason pedophiles find jobs as teachers, priests, coaches, or any other one in which they are in contact with children and people who trust them. I have had my crisis with the Catholic church also, and I was never a fanatic one. By now I don't even know if God exists and don't have any impulse to find out, I wouldn't know from where to start anyway. But as I remember the few nuns and priests I didn't like too much (I never said I was perfect) I also remember the very smart ones, the nice, wise, open minded and strong ones who taught me a lot of good things and principles that I also learned at home, the ones that made me decide to leave M. after I knew the real truth about him. I also remember the nuns from the mother Theresa of Calcutta center, where my younger brother, just finishing school, was doing volunteer work. They were so vibrant, full of life, their eyes so bright, some of them very young and always smiling and laughing. Their work was to do errands in the worst of neighborhoods to find and bring the neediest amongst the needy to the Center. They had many children who suffered of retardation and were found living in chorals like animals, or abused by their poor and ignorant parents, this being many times the cause of their mental sicknesses. They taught them to eat by themselves and took them under their care, taking them to the movies and places any normal children like to go to. My brother once told us how the nuns carried to the Center, a man that they found almost dying in the middle of the garbage, and after pulling off of his body, one by one, a great amount of white worms, they bathed him and put him in bed with clean clothes. He didn't last long, he was rotting, but surrounded by those who were not his relatives but took care of him until he died. And the only reason they did it is because they were good souls who heard the voice of love from their hearts. And that kind of love, you won't see in words coming out of dry mouths and falling on the floor as empty droppings. It is love in action, in motion, it belongs to the brave, who see no limits, religious or not, it sings a song that overflows barriers, flying always higher and beyond our own comprehension. Not all that we are not capable of doing or that we cannot comprehend has to be a task impossible to be accomplished by others. Don't let our ignorance destroy what remains good, we better learn to pull out the bad without removing the good with it. We are in a process of evolution, we've got to be wise, to learn to weed in the right way, there is enough bad in this world already.

Subject: Re: Got to learn to weed. From: PatD To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 20:21:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is love in action, in motion, it belongs to the brave, who see no limits, religious or not, it sings a song that overflows barriers, flying always higher and beyond our own comprehension. Great words: without vision the people perish.

Subject: Re: Got to learn to weed. From: Sulla To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 12, 2002 at 07:58:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks.

Subject: er, just for the record ... From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:17:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was brought up (or rather an attempt at indoctrination was made on me by the) C of E. (Church of England) - i.e. to many Catholics that makes me an unwitting apostate and enemy of the true Church. I would have thought that a common respect for J.C. would have led to a less antagonistic relationship between the two faiths! But that kind of enmity seems to be pretty common in religious history. Thank (thinks... thank who? ... not God, nor Christ, nor Mr Bean) anyway, thank our lucky stars we don't need our lack of religion to be the cause of any prejudice between us. Maybe that's part of the appeal of atheism? Who knows. Anyway, back to the topic you raised: the paedophilic tendencies of the priesthood seem to be out of proportion to the majority of the population, wouldn't you say? Which leads to the question: what is it about the role of priest/mahatma that makes it attract the likes of Jadgeo and other abusers? Big question.

Subject: Pedophiles/Jagdeo From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:45:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pedophiles are notorious for getting themselves into positions in which they have access to children. Makes sense, no? Priests have both access to children and usually have the respect of the parents who would never believe they would abuse their kids. Same for Jagdeo, but Jagdeo seemed to have an even more deliberate modus. Apparently Jagdeo held special 'childrens' satsang' at which he molested some kids and then he seems to have also singled out little girls for more private sexual abuse. What a bastard. Even more than Catholic parishoners, premie parents were much more susceptible to Jagdeo's deception, because of the absolute nature of the Maharaji cult, and the cult-belief that mahatmas like Jagdeo were holy men who were experiencing total bliss, and that Maharaji was "taking care of everything." In the case of Jagdeo, Maharaji appears to have done little or nothing, and it's almost beyond belief that he didn't know about it. Some say that the fact that Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate contributes to pedophilia among priests, but I don't believe that. Many pedophiles are married (mostly) men. But I think some men become priests partly because they don't have a socially acceptable sexual outlet, so it's a way to avoid dealing with it, until that becomes impossible. So, if a priest is attracted to children he might become a priest in order to try to purge those unacceptable desires. Then perhaps the desires become too great. I think that's one reason there are so many gay priests, probably about 40% or more. If they can't accept being gay, they might enter the priesthood as a way to avoid facing it. I think studies show that most pedophiles were sexually abused as children, most likely by their own parents.

Subject: Re: er, just for the record ... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:30:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cq, Anyway, back to the topic you raised: the paedophilic tendencies of the priesthood seem to be out of proportion to the majority of the population, wouldn't you say? Which leads to the question: what is it about the role of priest/mahatma that makes it attract the likes of Jadgeo and other abusers? In answer to the first question, I simply don't know. The rate of child sex abuse in America is quite high, but not everyone who sexually abuses is a pedophile. For instance, an incest perp isn't necessarily a pedophile. Unfortunately, there is a myth that abusing priests are homosexual, thus they choose boys. It's just not true. The majority of males who sexually abuse any child, including boys, is heterosexual. That's one myth that just makes me see red. And of course, it has nothing to do with sex. In response to your second question I believe it is because these Mahatma pedophiles or other sex offenders feel, and rightly so, protected by their status, whether it's a cult or a mainstream religion like the RCC. It's certainly true in the M cult. Look at how much work EV and M have done to cover up the Jagdeo matter? Same in the church. Cynthia who doesn't have all answers but wants them

Subject: Re: er, just for the record ... From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:24:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as brought up (or rather an attempt at indoctrination was made on me by the) C of E. (Church of England) - i.e. to many Catholics that makes me an unwitting apostate and enemy of the true Church. You're 40 yrs out of date on that one.

Subject: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt) From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:34:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt)

Subject: Re: 40 years out? Pls explain (nt) From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 16:24:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those attitudes have largely gone. Now they lend each other their Churches where necessary & generally get on. Maybe not so much in places where the happy clappies are revving it up,but out in the sticks the old diehards of both persuasions now realise they have more in common with one another than with anyone else. Ecumenism is the new 'I spit on your grave', sad really,as there are very few younger devotees around to reap the benefit. Village life in Old England ,dontcha love it,at least we don't live in one where polishing the dustbins is a social requirement. When the townies stop people chasing Charlie(the fox),that's when big doo doo will happen. Sorry to digress.

Subject: Maybe I just know the wrong people From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 03:43:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking time to explain that, Pat. Perhaps change happens a bit slower up here in the North-East. One acquaintance of mine asked me just last week whether I was Catholic or Protestant. Atheist, I told him. Oh, that's all right, he said, as long as you're not one of those damned Protestants. (Admittedly this guy is a bit of an eccentric - he even wants a return to Jacobism and the Divine Right of Kings!).

Subject: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:18:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was just cruising round EPO and found these great lines on instructions to MCs introducing a program. I don't know how old this stuff is but it is certainly my experience that MCs treat the audience like complete simpletons, simpletons that are not expected to have any real questions and to be treated with total disdain. Also the instruction not to repeat, clarify, interpret or add to Maharaji's message must go down as an all-time sick joke or evidence that Maharaji thinks his followers are dangerous to his so called mission. ============================== IV. Things to avoid: A. Repeating, clarifying, interpreting or adding to M's message. B. Being a salesperson; coaching or encouraaging anyone. C. Soliciting and/or answering questions from the audience. D. Using example, stories, personal statements, humor. E. Overloading the audience with too much information. VII. Dealing with questions: A. Do not directly answer questions regarding M's message, such as, 'What is thirst?', 'What does he mean by Knowledge?'. Direct them to continue to listen to M. B. Respond to questions regarding informatin and schedules (be aware of any upcoming instructor visits and events M is attending). Monkey Read, Monkey Say www.ex-premie.org/pages/scripts.htm

Subject: Ironic, isn't it From: Sir Dave :p To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:42:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that the premies probably know far more about knowledge or meditation than Maharaji will ever know. The day the premies were silenced was the day that propogation stopped, never to be started again. It was people who spead the message, never Maharaji.

Subject: Re: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:54:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spooky and how very different to the early programmes I used to attend that were full of magic, laughter and sponteneity. What on earth went wrong that Maharaji stopped trusting the premies to be able to talk about their experience? It was premies talking in a particularly inspired, really rather moving way about their experience that first attracted me. It took me rather longer to enjoy listening to Maharaji talking about it, to be honest. Does anybody know why he stopped trusting the premies to be able to talk about it? Surely the point at which propagation was at its height was when the premies did all the talking! And the point at which premies began to drift off was when he stopped us from giving satsang... Love, Livia

Subject: The Master and the Doo-Doo Ladus From: Pullaver To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:52:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia. Yeah, it's funny how Maharaji decided that it was all the premies' fault for the lack of propogation. In his wisdom they are responsible for the attrition rate as well. The master's perfect arrogance and ignorance must be on full display then, in reaching the following conclusion: Propogation isn't happenning because after thirty years of experience premies simply have no idea of what they are talking about. This might be so but what an indictment! Fifteen years ago it wasn't happenning because of all the eastern concepts they were responsible for spreading. In Maharaji's world it is his followers who have been scapegoated as being responsible for the decline in revenues, er, membership. In Maharaji's world, Maharaji himself couldn't possibly be responsible for the lack of interest. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with his profligate lifestyle, his constant pleas for donations, his pattern of using people and abandoning them when he revises his agenda or decides he doesn't need them. Take heart though, we are in end game. Finances have dried up. The organization is being let go. Maharaji has now nothing to hide behind and blame. It's now clearly all on his shoulders and he's in desperation mode. The spin is out there that he has already in fact completed his mission. So he thinks his derriére is covered and so it is, with his own doo-doo ladus.

Subject: Re: The Master and the Doo-Doo Ladus From: Livia To: Pullaver Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:31:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pullaver, Well said. And when you come to think of it, why did M not see his staggering wealth as an obstacle to people becoming interested? It certainly put off most of the people I knew, who would probably have been a lot more interested if he had lived a simple lifestyle. I thought at the time that those people were letting their concepts get in the way. I suppose M had enough people at the time to keep him in the style he had become accustomed not to worry too much about the rest... Makes you think, huh? Love, Livia

Subject: Opulence, Arrogance and Filaments From: Pullaver To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:17:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, and as has been noted here a few times, Maharaji himself has always been the biggest obstacle to any kind of 'propogation'. The fact is that had he listened to Mishler and not gone the devotional/opulent route he probably would have done really well in the west like TM or est in their hay day. Without all the people he badly burned with his arrogance, crazy schemes and concepts - who knows - there might never have been a need for EPO. Oh well, his loss our gain. Maharaji has the classic Krishna complex, common to the offspring of avatars, especially if they were brought up in India and ascended to the throne at 8 years old. Even a high priced Beverley Hills psychiatrist to the stars couldn't cure it. A curious facet of this disease is never being able to admit to being wrong about anything. True to form he has unleashed his anger and blame on the very followers who stuck around way past bed-time to listen. Most people I know (myself included) were simply embarassed to say that it was him they were following. Mentioning his name, meant having to launch into a lengthy defence of why he is not a greedy, fraudulent con. I used to think that this was just part of the lila. Shit, my mother was right all along. How embarassing.

Subject: Jesus, you musta gone to diff satsangs than me From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 16:12:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the satsangs I heard were about projecting what a premie was supposed to be and was way off beam, and obviously fake, loads of hyperbole about gm, and loads of leakage that they were fucked up & unhappy. About one in ten I reckon was from peeps having strong meditation experiences and integrating it in their life. From my perspective it also seemed that a lot of people used it as a crutch to keep their faith going, when I thought the faith if it happened, ought to come from the experience. At the time it made total sense to me that he stopped it. The only period I excuse from this was 76-77 when it got a lot more honest and real, and the faking it level dropped drastically. But then he was in a right double bind, since the practice of k was never his priority, so how could he make it so. If the practice of k HAD been the core, then there would have been no need for the messianism and personality cult. If the focus had been on k, and gm was for real then the whole cult would have been a lot more glowy, and naturally self-selling, as any real product is. Even then he knew how fake the personality cult was and that it needed to be hidden. Poor sod, what an emotionally barren existence he must have.

Subject: Shmucks and peas From: Sir Dave :p To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:09:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad satsang stopped here in 1983 because when it did, I was painfully awoken from my stupor and thrown back into the real world from whence I'd come back in 1972 (when I received K). But those satsangs (not the Maha's) did have a real value and were the only thing which created communities and of course, devotion to M and practise of K. Much of the satsang was crap, especially the heavy sort. But then much of it wasn't. I remember Chris somebody-or-other who was married (partnered?) to that nice midwife lady (I always forget names, never faces). One night I remember in the Palace of Peas flat, he gave satsang and I was blown out and we all were. I can't remember a word of what he was on about but we all were high. Except one guy, who suddenly got up and left after telling Chris he was a shmuck or something. One day, I was with the girlfriend of the guy who'd walked out and I gave her satsang or kinda just talked to her and she said she was higher than she's ever been, even with the Maha. So what the hell was going on? What was that communication that we'd tapped into? I used to get as high as a kite when I gave satsang.

Subject: satsang trippyness From: hamzen To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:05:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's why I got so pissed off, because when it was good, it was really really good, and good for me was really trippy. Call me naive and an old hippy, but we were pushing our conceptual boundaries/reality models, trying to break out of social conventions, trying to talk from a place of love & the heart, honesty, truth, trying not to be judgemental, trying to lessen ego control mechanisms(all at its best I mean), when you've got that happening you start releasing loads of chemical shit of a certain kind. The same stuff you're talking about from satsang I got more from meditation, but I'm certain it's the same or related shit. Patrick W was talkin elsewhere about how he didn't meditate for ages, nor smoke dope after he left. Then when he starts meditating again, getting a good vibe, he suddenly starts thinking of smokin hash again. Same shit. And in the end isn't it just an appreciation of how mind blowingly amazing it is that life exists at all, that the universe with all it's magic exists. Look at love, how many people you known who've got really solid relationships that have lasted, whose communication style you really respect, where there is a load of self worth and equality? In my experience very VERY rare, I've met the two couples in the last ten years and they are the first ones. Yet that drive is way out of proportion to the likelihood of it being reached for each of us, yet we consistently deny the likely reality outcome. Love, being open and receptive, they're biological basics I reckon, whose drive is phenomenal, as all biology is. And I don't think for a moment that lessens it. And I think coming from the sixties culture that had large overlaps conceptually with that be here now, mind of a child, everything is bollox socially and politically meant we were VERY open to altered states, throw in acid (and VERY strong acid at that) and you've got a reality model that is unbelievably experientially based, at the expense of other concerns as we now know. That shit about the mind of a child etc, was all about that surely, ie at it's best, I remember as a kid realizing I was losing some fundamental experiential level when `I began to adapt to social conventions, and it bugged me. I didn't want to lose that trippy nature of the moment, REALLY feeling alive, not just sleep walking and adapting to social pressures. I really do think trhat really trippy shit was down to that experiential naivete of ours, when it was working, but then so was that hippy social chaos too. What I like about this generation, especially those who would have been hippies in the sixties is how much they've learnt to integrate the two sides, and produced a different kind of hybrid, that superficially is less, but is much more consistent and long lasting.

Subject: The Lies of Omission From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right Liva. I was talking to somebody recently about how in the old days, at least the cult was pretty honest about things. People found out about devotion, and darshan, Arti, rituals, and Maharaji's wealth right from the start. We didn't try to omit things because we thought it would turn people off. Premies could give satsang, sing, etc., and express whatever they wanted. Plus, we were right out there with who we thought Maharaji was. He was the perfect master. He was the incarnation of god, come to show you god, so we said. But no more. Now 'interested' people are lied to by the Maharji cult. They are not told about all the 'devotion' stuff until they are hooked enough to want this supposed wonderful 'experience' so they might swallow it just to get knowledge. It's so bad and so controlled that even if an aspirant or 'new person' were to ask about this stuff, or even about knowledge, the premie isn't supposed to tell them. They are told to just watch a video. It's so deceitful if you think about it, and so insulting to premies, some of whom have practicied knowledge for 30 years but are considered incapable of even talking about anything other than the 'possibility' of knowledge existing, not their actual experience.

Subject: Re: The Lies of Omission From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:15:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point Joe re: it being insulting to premies to be told not to talk about M&K. A few years ago, we had some good friends over and the talk turned to mediation and such. We mentioned M&K and they said they would like to know more. For fun, we showed them a video of Holi festival in the Orange Bowl and they went wild. We had to tell them that was part of the past and then showed them an intro video. They responded in a lukewarm way and were disappointed M&K were so bland. They were enthusiastic about what they saw as our own fondness for M&K but were turned off by the canned sales pitch. Another friend expressed interest in K so she went to an intro video with my wife. She was still interested so she showed up on her own for another video. She was turned away because it was not an intro night. She also wanted to go see M when he was here but was again rejected because it was PWK only. Her response was that it seemed like an exclusive, secretive cult to her. If M's message was so great, why hide it? M has insulated himself so much that it is now all but impossible to receive K. I can't wait to see the much anticipated media coverage EV has been teasing the PWKs with.

Subject: Re: Instructions to enlightened premies From: Jerry To: Opie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:01:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like the answering questions part. What kind of 'knowledge' is this if you never learn anything so you can answer other people's questions about it?

Subject: To the good Deputy From: Richard II To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 20:30:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said in one of your coming out posts that as a premie there are two conditions concerning the EPO accusations, with each of them giving rise to different courses of actions. You said, if the accusations being leveled by ex’s are not true then this site is doing a disservice to man, and if they are true there would be no alternative but to stop following him. I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master. To entertain this possibility you need to have an appreciation for what a Master means to a student. And to understand that, you need to be a student. If I ask what in life matters, the responses to this question would be entirely subjective. That is because we each have our own reference point that determines what is valuable to us. To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what? Okay, let me get poetic for a minute. To see what occupies the void. To hear what is heard in silence. To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Does this kind of stuff matter to non-students? Of course not. Most people don’t believe such things are even possible, so they don’t value it. Instead they come up with other icons to revere: country, community, family –- you know the story. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? If you were to believe for a moment the scriptures and poets who describe these things as being the true riches of life, then you would have to value them absolutely -– intellectually at least. So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. So Dep, here’s what happens. You stop experiencing. Maybe you stop practicing. Or maybe you practice but those nagging doubts don’t let you go much deeper a freckle. That stops you from believing. Then like most other people in this world, that stops you from valuing. And what then of the Master? That’s easy. At first he just gets relegated to the same level as the rest of our leaders. And if he fits our model for a leader – which is probably a collective mix of political, religious, professional, and cultural leadership -- we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. So here’s an interesting thought. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Something would have to give, eh Dog?

Subject: Then, the MASTER can go to HELL without me! From: Sulla To: Richard II Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 12:28:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First I wasn't looking for a master, Guru, teacher or whatever you want to call it. I was looking for God, and 'that knowledge' was the knowledge of God and M. the incarnation of GOD in this earth. That is what was offer to me in the 70, s when my brother was a premie and again in the beginning of the 80's when I receive k. in South A. In the 80's they didn't tell me directly that he was God, but in a subtle and direct way I was told that the experience would tell me, and anyway my brother already told me that he was the Messiah, and of course I wanted to experience God and to see God by myself. But the true is that I never knew for real if he was, and I never knew if he wasn't, but I kept waiting, and waiting, swimming in a sea of doubts for the BIG DAY in which the BIG HE would be revealing himself to me as... The ONLY, the GREATEST, the PUREST, the IMMORTAL, The TRUTHFUL, The JUST The ETERNAL, etc., etc., GOD !!!!!! Not the IMMORAL, the COWARD, the IGNORANT, and definitively NOTGOD that NOW I have the REAL KNOWLEDGE that he, Maharaji, really is. And YES! This is what matters to me. And not: To see what occupies the void. To hear what is heard in silence. To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Because, anyway, I can have it without him! I can still hear THAT music, and I can still see THAT light, and without meditating, and I can still feel a normal love as the one I felt before K, and I can still be breathing as any other normal human being in this world because if not I would be dead. An even If I couldn't have it without him, I wouldn't want it, for me, he can better put his lies all together in a package and stick it in a place of himself that the sun cannot reach, because HE IS NOT WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR! AND THAT HAS BEEN PROVED! AND IF HE IS THE MASTER, HE CAN GO TO HELL WITHOUT ME!

Subject: So in other words you are saying........ From: Tonette To: Richard II Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:17:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The master shows the big Truth. He is 'priceless,' therefore it doesn't matter what he says, doesn't matter what he does, doesn't matter what he is. The meditation, the knowledge, is the big truth and to hell with the rest of the human race. It's only my experience that is reality and Maharaji has ownership of it. I gotta have this master, and a fine example he is, to stay on this path of the big truth. 'That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.' Yeah, right. Ever heard the saying, actions speak louder than words? I guess it wouldn't matter if one of your children was raped by one of his instructors and 'the master' just brushed it away. I guess it doesn't matter that he can't even be bothered to read his fan mail from premies. Bonk every woman from here to Calcutta while married. Hit a stupid person on a bicycle? He is so above any decent accountability or honesty. He's the MASTER! And what's with this enamouring of the experience of meditation? Listening to the buzz of your nervous system, that's truth to you? That's love, that's the purpose of your life? You need to get out more. I feel sorry for you. Your belief system is well armored by years of conditioning and investment. Gad, you are in a fix allright. You could just as easily believe, with the proper dose of propaganda that Ted Bundy was a nice guy, the Pope is truly a 'holy man,' the Earth is the center of the universe. Good luck.

Subject: Re: So in other words you are saying........ From: R2 To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 19:17:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess it wouldn't matter if one of your children was raped by one of his instructors and 'the master' just brushed it away. You were not there when he heard about the accusations against Jagdeo. You don't know how he took the news, or what he did about it. You are therefore in no position to make the statement, ''the master' just brushed it away'. I guess it doesn't matter that he can't even be bothered to read his fan mail from premies. First of all, premies are not in some fan club. So except for the likes of Michael Jackson, where do you get off demanding he read your freaking letters? I mean, did he ask you to send them? Second, just how busy a man do you think he is? Do you think he's just lounging pool-side and instead of reading People he should be reading your letter? Third, and I'll speak for myself, every answer I ever got regarding Knowledge was through its practice. Writing letters to him felt good, mostly because it clarified to ME what I felt and wanted to say to him. Whether he read it after that was kinda irrelevant. Of course it would of been cool to have him send me a reply, but that would have been a bonus. Bonk every woman from here to Calcutta while married. Every woman? God, how you folks like to exagerate! Look, it has been reported he had affairs. Why the f--k do you care so much? What moral high-ground do you so proudly occupy that you are in a position to judge such things? Hit a stupid person on a bicycle? He is so above any decent accountability or honesty. He's the MASTER! Tell me, have you been to India? Do you know the customs there. Do you understand the dynamic within the social hierarchy. Just an FYI, in many cases a man of influence in India cannot afford honesty and accountability. Why? Because the system is corrupt. You Tonette have no idea how one navigates those currents in order to survive. YOU try baring your soul to a system fueled by corruption and see where you end up. Besides, the man's family was compensated far beyond what is the norm in India. Whether Maharaji fit your western mould and did the 'right thing' or not, made no the difference to the family, or the man for that matter. And what's with this enamouring of the experience of meditation? Listening to the buzz of your nervous system, that's truth to you? That's love, that's the purpose of your life? You need to get out more. You clearly are oblivious to what lies within you my dear. You need to get in more. You could just as easily believe, with the proper dose of propaganda that Ted Bundy was a nice guy, the Pope is truly a 'holy man,' the Earth is the center of the universe. Hey Tonette, lighten up! If you've got any answers share them. If not, then at least don't spread vitriol. In the end, it's how much kindness you sow that will determine the riches you attained in life.

Subject: Re: So in other words you are saying........ From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 06:47:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'You were not there when he heard about the accusations against Jagdeo. You don't know how he took the news, or what he did about it. You are therefore in no position to make the statement, ''the master' just brushed it away'.' No, that's true, but surely the right thing to do would have been to (a) find some way of expressing sincere regret and concern to the victims, (b) bring Jagdeo to the appropriate authorities, (c) make sure that Jagdeo was prevented from having any further contact whatsoever with children, and/or (d) remove him permanently from his duties as an instructor. To no one's knowledge has any of the above taken place. The victims have certainly heard nothing by way of any apology or recognition of what they have suffered. Jagdeo is still an instructor, and was recently touring Africa. Whether he has access to children is anyone's guess, but nothing has been said to the contrary. Richard, it is obvious that whatever Maharaji's feelings about Jagdeo's widespread abuse and rape of children, he has not taken anything remotely resembling the appropriate steps to deal with it. To anyone with any imagination whatsoever, this must be because he doesn't wish there to be any public scandal that might reflect badly on him. You can imagine the newspapers: 'Maharaji's top aide in sex abuse scandal.' This is what he fears, and this is why he has tried to bury the issue. What he doesn't seem to realise is how badly this has told against him. Many, many people have left him because of it. He could have dealt with it in a quite different way. He could have allowed it to come right out in the open, and at the same time dealt caringly and sensitively with the victims, many of whom have suffered lifelong damage. And if he had, it probably wouldn't have been anything like as damaging to him - this is the irony. If you can bear to, Richard, read Abi's account of how she was raped by Jagdeo at Wringford Manor in Cornwall, England in 1976. And then think again about Jagdeo touring Africa under Maharaji's agya in 2202. What do you think? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: So in other words you are saying........ From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 14:29:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, as I understand Abi has been offered reparations. She apparently did not accept them for whatever reason. Second, do YOU know that Jagdeo is touring Africa as an instructor in 2002? Third, you have determined the appropriate action he “should have taken” without knowing what action he has taken. Whatever action he may have taken, he is clearly not inclined to make it public, not even to appease people like you. Kinda reminds me of Socrates refusing to defend himself even when his life was at stake. Look Livia, there’s only one thing that makes a person’s life worthwhile. That is if their core can be touched so they can experience the depth of existence. All the good deeds, all the being a good person, all the righteous actions mean nothing compared to a moment of touching the heart of your existence. If there’s something in your life that makes you feel that, then I am happy for you. Whatever it is can only be a good thing. For me, I have been touched often and on a very deep level by having Maharaji in my life. I don’t presume for a second that he has that effect on everybody, so my hope for you is you’ve at least got something that goes that deep. For me, yeah I’ve got a wife and family like most people. And there are moments of extreme richness that comes with that. And I experience depth when I feel compassion for people in need, true. But I am extremely grateful to have something that allows me to live within that depth, not just visit it on occasion. I know it is a good thing because it hits me in a place that’s true. And all the accusations, judgements, grievances, bitches, and complaints of people who have no appreciation for Maharaji do not diminish it’s truth or its goodness. Sorry. From what I’ve seen there is one fundamental difference between ex-premies and premies that may be what drives one to their respective camps. Ex-premies put a priority on saving humanity, whereas premies’ priority is saving their own soul. The upshot of that is, ex-premies look for leadership that addresses the needs of humanity, and premies look for a leader who addresses the need of their soul. Simple difference but could explain a lot.

Subject: Please Cut The Crap, R2 From: OTS To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 15:37:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been touched often and on a very deep level by having Maharaji in my life. Sorry, R2. Your bullshit seems to know no end. Can you please stop responding! No one wants to hear it any longer (or ever). Just go back to watching a video or a broadcast of your master. If you have any comments NO PREMIE WANTS TO HEAR THEM. If you have questions, just watch another video, my man. Maharaji is not in your life. Yorum Weiss is. Your community contact is. Maharaji? No way. He just sits up there a few times a year and tells a few old one liners while his dinner reservation is being checked-on at the top hotel in town, and then he flies on to his next vacation spot. What a joke. It's just a coincidence that he never speaks in a cold climate. Sorry, Canadian premies, northern North American premies. Just follow him to say a dying tourist destination, like Curaco, Netherland Antilles, in the Caribbean like six months ago? How convenient? And how inexpensive to fly there ($600 roundtrip FROM MIAMI)? I am extremely grateful to have something that allows me to live within that depth, not just visit it on occasion. I know it is a good thing because it hits me in a place that’s true. What the fuck does 'that depth' mean? Hun? And how to you live 'there' as opposed to just visiting? And where is that 'place that's true?' And how does it 'hit' you? PLEASE DON'T ANSWER. This thread has definitely tested my abilities to read continued bullshit. You live in a fantasy world of concepts. They're old and in the way, R2.

Subject: Crap is in the eye of the beholder OTS From: R2 To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 17:01:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It’s called counterbalance OTS. Without it there is only one side. And as we all know, there are usually two. Sorry you don’t appreciate my input.

Subject: That was a breath of fresh air, OTS. Thanks [nt] From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 16:09:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lighten up? Follow your own advice Richard, From: Tonette To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 23:42:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, Richard, do you ever go by Dick? You speak of kindness relating to riches, what does that have to do with Knowledge? I don't see lots of kindness and nuture or any good works arising from Maharaji and his mission. Can you tell me anything that he has done for others? Other than showing people how to plug up their senses, if you want to count K as the ultimate kindness. That aside, what has he done? Name me some of the kindness he has given to someone that wasn't attached to some sort of reward. Any example will do. I for instance, to clue you into what I may be looking for, do kind acts because well, that's just the way I am. A few examples: Making a dinner for the children's choir once a month Sending maternity clothes to a 16 year old pregnant girl $24 dollars a month to sponsor a child in poverty Contributed to the 9-11 disaster Donating blood ect So, Dick, I mean Richard, with my meager lot compared to Maharaji's millions, surely he has been able to contribute something really noteworthy. What might that be? You're in the loop, you know him so very well, tell me what he has done. Listen, you can believe anything you want and will. Some people just have better developed ethics and morals. You want to invest in and nuture your little trip with Maharaji and the all powerful Truth (snicker)he reveals, has given you, be my guest. But in case you haven't noticed this is a chat site for people who no longer BELIEVE! From the wealth of testimony recorded here on a daily basis, the information on EPO, the paper documentation and the fact that I was there and I did hear and see specific behavior on M's part only a fool or a cult addled moron would continue to empower the likes of M. Believe what you want, you're not hurting anyone I suppose, but why not take your theory to Life's Great for some real dialogue? Keep spreading that kindness Richard, or is it Dick? I felt so much sincerity and truth and love and kindness in the way you replied to me. Look at what Knowledge and Maharaji has done for you. Isn't it great? A real evolution. Pathetic really

Subject: Thanks Richard, but..... From: Bryn To: Richard II Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 11:31:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...your post is interesting to me, but not, I'm afraid, because of its content. Rather because of the valiant attempt it represents to appear rational/logical. Mike Dettmers does tidy your thinking up politely and helpfully I have to say. So what then remains that is so interesting to me in your post? It is your evident enthusiasm to hold forth in the grand manner on the subject of life the universe and everything, armed with such a flimsy and unexamined set of concepts. I realise that they don't appear as such to you, and that I probably sound patronising; but nevertheless there is a remarkable difference between the authority with which you obviously want to express yourself and the depth of insight at your disposal. Speaking as someone who spent years clinging to every word of the master, I recognise the above limitations from personal 'experience'. I have to tell you that Maharaji deals his devotees a very low hand indeed when it comes to playing in the real world of conceptual expression of inner 'experience'. I was a victim of over-validating his platitudes, sayings and thought forms and I think you are too. He is a charismatic man whose statements derive meaning from his charisma and your relationship to it. Their apparent ability to stand on their own is only apparent, and thats why your post is interesting. You obviously regard (as I did) his intellectual guidance as an adequate vehicle with which to attempt to present your own experience of the world. What you actually convey is a mix of naivety, enthusiasm for self-publicity, and signs of having been severely duped.That is what your post actually and in reality proclaims to the world about your master's influence on it and you. Did you know that? No malice here intended,love. Bryn Ps.About the side effects of devotional listening. It used to be said by aspirant co-ordinaters and instructors that the name of the game was to get people to 'love Maharaji', and all else would follow. I can see the truth in this. But it is obvious now, that he does not make sense unless you DO love him. The sad consequence for many an enthusiastic 'student' is that their master's worked-in thought forms, words and structures are absolutely incomprehensible in the world at large. Bye again.

Subject: Another possibility From: Michael Dettmers To: Richard II Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 06:58:20 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Richard II, as you’ve raised the subject of considering other possibilities, it might be worth looking at some of the 'taken for granted' assumptions contained in your post that pre-date the arrival of Maharaji in your live. For instance, you say, “To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what?” You continue, “So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever.” What appears to go unquestioned in your argument is a deeply engrained and unexamined belief about how human beings “know” anything, let alone that we can know “truth” or “reality.” I suggest you put Maharaji aside for the moment and take some time to examine your concepts of truth, reality and perfection? We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. In the old paradigm, 'reality' is considered to be permanent and external. Change happens within this assumed permanent reality. In the new paradigm, reality lives in language, the language of a community. The world is a permanent emerging conversation in which commitment and interpretation happen. It is a world of possibilities. In the old paradigm, language describes reality. It conveys representations of internal realities (thoughts, feelings, beliefs etc.) as well as external realities (nature, behaviors, institutions etc.). In the new paradigm, language brings forth reality. The old paradigm emphasizes prediction and control. Information is crucial. The new paradigm underlines anticipation and skillful coping. This change is essentially a shift in emphasis from accumulating descriptions and representations towards an emphasis on action. Committed communication lies at the center of the new paradigm. The old paradigm does not recognize the basic human phenomenon of 'cognitive blindness' -- not knowing and, at the same time, being unaware of one's ignorance. The new paradigm acknowledges cognitive blindness and, therefore, a new opening for learning arises. In the old paradigm, leadership is associated with charisma, omniscience and paternalism. In the new paradigm, leaders are like gardeners. They nurture other people and they produce the mood of a community. The essence of the new paradigm is the emergence of a new human being. Emphasis is on action, innovation and creativity. Human beings are assumed to be historical creatures whose identities are not permanent, but open for design. We invent and re?invent our identities in a 'dance' of coordination of action with other members of the communities in which we work and live. In the new paradigm, there is no such thing as a reality independent of language. Let me make this point clear. I am not saying that there is no reality beyond language. I am not denying the existence of an external reality. What I am saying is that about that reality we know nothing, since all knowledge itself is completely linguistic. Reality always shows up within a 'linguistic clearing.' Language also constitutes significant dimensions of our reality. Social realities are normally linguistically generated. We go to war because we hold certain interpretations; we fall in love and build our relationships and marriage out of stories that we make in language; we play power games such as politics from our capacity to generate new realities through language; we develop our identities as stories about ourselves; and whenever we develop a written narrative as in a text, we are also inventors of reality. Within this emerging understanding, Maharaji is increasingly irrelevant. We no longer need leaders who claim to be the embodiment of truth or the keepers and dispensers of ultimate reality. Once we transcend these concepts, we will not longer seek leaders upon whom to project these illusions.

Subject: Just a small comment From: Tonette To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 09:52:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To a lenghty, seemingly intellectual post. I disagree with just about everything you wrote in your post. What hyperbole. An example would be; 'In the old paradigm, language describes reality. It conveys representations of internal realities (thoughts, feelings, beliefs etc.) as well as external realities (nature, behaviors, institutions etc.). In the new paradigm, language brings forth reality.' The author of this theory left out one very important detail, language arises from the intellect and is devised to express and describe the reality that is happening within a specific time period. So, in actuality, language is defined by the period of time in which it was formed. It is language, not reality, that is continually shifting, always has and always will. This is not new. An example would be the continual rise and fall of slang, 'cool man, far out, tripping, what's up', to name just a few. Reality, and our intrepretation of it, our definition of it, has changed, maybe(if at all), due to man's explosion of growth in science and math. Language serves to describe our new understandings. Language will never bring forth a new reality. Our intellect and science will continue to change reality, well maybe not change, but redefine it. For instance, 6 million people haven't died of the flu this year. Language is just a servant, a bystander, a historical marker of man's progress, it has not, nor will it ever change reality. You've got it backwards. Anyway, you can believe anything you want. I'm sure this little twist that interests you so, serves you well in your line of work. But to me it's alot of mumbo-jumbo and downright hogwash. Lots of talk, big words, woven expertly. Tonette

Subject: Just a small reply From: Michael Dettmers To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:02:28 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: It would appear that you subscribe to the passive interpretation of language - namely that it is the symbolic representation of reality. In other words, reality exists and language allows us to speak about it or describe it. To emphasize your point you state that, “language will never bring forth a new reality.” I disagree. There are certain speech acts (language) that are generative as distinct from passive that, strictly speaking, don’t describe anything – a promise for instance. For example, what if you and I agree to meet next week to finalize the creation of a new education building for the Wild Life Center of Virginia? The moment we make a promise (commitment) to meet on Thursday March 14, 2002 at 10:00AM our respective futures are altered. In other words, our future reality is shaped (brought forth) by the linguistic act called a promise. We may, of course, also use language to report on (describe) what took place at our meeting, but the meeting itself constitutes a new reality, one that would not have occurred if we did not commit to meet. The whole world we live in is shaped by this phenomenon. In this way, we, as linguistic beings, create or invent reality. Thursday, March 14, 2002 is linguistic construct. My dogs, whom I love dearly, do not coordinate their futures around such linguistic constructs, because they don’t live in language. And please don’t confuse language with communication. Clearly my dogs and other animals communicate. I’m referring to the phenomenon of language which is more than communication; it is the coordination of the coordination of action. This meta domain of coordination is only possible for beings who live in language and it has profound implications for our ability to bring forth reality. You go on to say that “our intellect and science will continue to change reality, well maybe not change, but redefine it.” I agree completely that our intellect and science will continue to change reality, but not because language is a bystander to the process. It is my contention that our intellect, that is, our ability to think, is inextricably linked to the phenomenon of language. Can you imagine thinking anything without being a biological being that lives in language?

Subject: You're so tedious, From: Tonette To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 21:20:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief, Michael, so, I guess we sort of agree. I'm sorry, I just don't have the stomach for this sort of thing. I'm a very black and white person. Unless speculation can be proven and measured and reproduced I am very suspicious. Theories beyond this ability of scientific scrutiny border on science fiction to me. Paragigm shift is akin to an evolutionary jump. Yes, it does happen. Is it likely to happen soon, like in our lifetimes, well the odds are against it. But you know far more about it than I do and are far more interested than I am. Thanks for you thoughts. There are always two sides to the coin. That's what keeps the race marching forward. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: hope you stick around MD From: bill To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:28:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just printed all your posts on the thread and I would guess it will take some reading and rereading and rereading ! Thanks for weighing in. Perception and reality are cetainly not OT for the forum, and I was looking forward to your updated thoughts on this subject. You did first come here with some posts where you took some of your thinking on the subject of perception and words and had at the time incorporated them also in your view of m. I thought they were interesting at the time, but tied to m, they got brushed aside in the pursuit of other issues we had with m. Glad you are in the mood to discuss them with us. Thanks again for your Stand Up approach to the whole m issue. Any of your clients who, if they were to review your involvement with m, and finish up by reading your interview with Mike Finch, would respect your growth and handling of the issue. For a couple years here we dearly wanted someone of your involvement level to come put thier cards on the table and you did it in spades. Thanks of course to Mike Donner also !

Subject: still working on it MD [nt] From: bill To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 09:17:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:32:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I looked at your website (nice revamp) and tried to make my way through your FAQ and some of your other copy there but, Mike, my brain started bogging down in seconds. Honestly, is there really any 'there' there? Quite honestly, it really does look like gobbledygook. I'm sorry. I know you're not alone, that there seem to be lots and lots of people all swimming in those waters (Tim Gallwey, Mike??) but it just looks like a bizarre mixture of corporate training buzzwords and, like I said earlier, science fiction psychobabble. As far as I can tell, a table's gonna be a table no matter what kind of fancy verbal footwork one indulges in. It's a table for god's sake! You know? As in 'table'? Sheesh! So what do to? Should I feel bad for saying this? I don't know, Mike. Everyone here (except the premies, of course) seem to have great respect for the stand you've taken for truth here. I'm not exception. And you've written a number of excellent, cogent posts that have been of inestimable help for people trying to make sense of the Maharaji phenomenon. The last thing I'd ever want to do is put you off in any way whatsoever. However, when you utter such grand prophecies as you have here, I, for one, can't just say 'oh, that's nice' and leave it at that. No, it's more like ... 'what??' Anyway, is there some place in particular on your website or one of your links where I can learn why you think that we're in the midst of this major 'paradigm shift'? Or is that something that maybe I'd get if I took one of Gallwey's workshops? :)

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:27:46 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I suggest you let it go. I certainly don’t take offence if you think it is bullshit. I respect your skepticism. If this is a topic you really want to pursue, I suggest we take it off-line.

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:39:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I don't really want to pursue it. It's your thing, obviously. But tell me it isn't a bit funny you touting Gallwey at the same time as we're ridiculing him for his continuing support of Maharaji right down to buying Abi's plane ticket to meet with Valerio. I mean, do you still talk to the guy? What's that like?

Subject: Re: Any chance this is all bullshit? From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 17:06:45 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: No I don't talk with Gallwey. As you must know, I am a persona non grata in that world and that is fine with me.

Subject: In Theory Yes Humberto From: Francesco Varela To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:16:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem is, as you know too well yourself, is that teachers of the new relativity get treated as the new royalty by those too old, too entrenched, or too desperate to be riding the next wave. Cynthia's post about the Fernando Flores training course above perfectly amplifies that point. When there's big money involved there will always be problems, big business so likes to eat up and consume new paradigms when a profit is at stake. At street level thankfully that gets bypassed.

Subject: From Hierarchical to relational From: Barbara To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:25:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael: Thank you for your trenchant commentary. I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, which your comments seem to delineate. The 'Master' model, which is the epitome of hierarchy, certainly is outmoded and, rather than performing a service to 'students,' it does a disservice by crippling the students' ability to participate fully in life, IMO. R2 infers that, by not devotedly following and devotionally listening to the Master, we 'stop experiencing,' when in fact the opposite is true. One of the hallmarks of a paradigm shift (I know that phrase has been beaten to death, but it is accurate in this instance) is that once vaunted truths in the old paradigm can be, and are, turned on their heads and can be seen for the illusion(s) that they are/were. Further, R2's comment that '... the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master' reveal a cognitive canyon which no leap of logic can bridge. To me, R2's thinking displays the contortions of a mind fighting the shift from a hierarchical mode of communication to a relational mode. By abdicating personal responsibility under the guise of being a good student to a Master, both the Master and student feed and maintain the illusion and delusion that the Master/Student two-step is what it's all about. The darkest hour is just before dawn.

Subject: Help me play catch-up From: Pullaver To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:41:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you say I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, I presume that you are talking about how we communicate. For instance, when you say that the essence of language is hierarchical, I presume you mean that our 'manner of communication' can be hierarchical, not that this is the actual nature of the structure of language itself. And if I misunderstand you, and you are actually saying language itself is hierarchical, how do we move to communicating relationally given we're still left with the medium of language? Pullaver - an actual class clown but asking sincerely (guilelessly), relationally (or am I being old-school hierarchical?) and hopefully without a trace of irony.

Subject: Re: Help me play catch-up From: Barbara To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:48:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Guileless Pullaver: You got it right. I think the essence/purpose of language is communication, but you're correct in that I meant the mode of communication can be, and usually is, hierarchical. Language itself isn't, imo, but I sure ain't no expert on this. :)

Subject: Am I reading the wrong paper or something? From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:32:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hoyl cow, another one! I go to bed last night thinking I'm in this world that I've kind of gotten to know these last, what am I, 35? Yeah, 35 years, and I wake up to a paradigm shift. Is that in the LA Times or something? We didn't see anything about it up here. Mind you, that's Canada for you.

Subject: Once again, you're not trying hard enough :) From: Barbara To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:38:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must've been those damn primaries in the States.

Subject: Or you're trying too hard maybe? :) From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Must have been the milk.

Subject: What milk? :) [nt] From: Barbara To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 23:44:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Aw, nothin' :) From: Jim To: Barbara Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 18:08:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What in the world are you talking about? From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. Where are you getting this from, Mike? That's a pretty strong, if vague, statement which just cries out for an explanation. I mean what is this? Frankly, and I say this with all due respect, it sounds to me like science fiction psychobabble. I mean, unless you can tell us more about when this 'new human being' is going to emerge and how, I'm sorry, but this just sounds weird. Even if you're right about the blind spots in our communication where do you get the idea that we're on the verge of such a radical 'paradigm shift'? And why, if this is all so real and imminent, doesn't the academic community join you in your prediction? Sorry, Mike, not sure what kind of response you expected or wanted. I, for one, am curious as hell as to how and where you're getting this stuff.

Subject: To Jim, Cynthia, et al From: Michael Dettmers To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:07:33 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I am not asking you to believe me or accept what I say. I am simply offering a different interpretation to that proposed by Richard II. Even though I no longer put any teacher on a pedestal I, nevertheless, continue to learn from several different teachers whom I respect for their specific expertise. If you are really interested in how I came to this way of thinking, and how it impacts my life and my work, you are welcome to visit my website and scan my list of suggested reading. I think Barbara captured the essence of my argument when she said, “I think we are moving from an hierarchical model of communication (the essence of language) to a relational one, … The 'Master' model, which is the epitome of hierarchy, certainly is outmoded and, rather than performing a service to 'students,' it does a disservice by crippling the students' ability to participate fully in life, IMO.” My intention in this thread is to reflect upon the socially embodied concepts and beliefs that made it so natural, for me at least, to look upon Maharaji as a Master capable of revealing truth and perfection.

Subject: Re: To Jim, Cynthia, et al From: Jim To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:01:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not asking you to believe me or accept what I say. I am simply offering a different interpretation to that proposed by Richard II. Yeah, fine Mike, but you must admit your comments raise some pretty big questions, chief among them being 'What's he talking about?' and 'How does he know?' To be quite honest with you, I'm not so much interested in how you came to think the way you do as to what it is you're thinking.

Subject: Thanks, Michael... From: Cynthia To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:21:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, You know I appreciate you. I simply had a bad experience with Flores and his group. As I said, I don't discredit anything you have said here about your life around Maharaji. Far from it. I do thank you for your invitation to look at your list of suggested reading. Best, Cynthia

Subject: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? [nt] From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:25:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael Dettmers To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:45:04 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Sorry, about the two blank posts. My website address is: www.gylanix.com

Subject: Re:your links From: hamzen To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 15:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amazed you've got Capras one there but no Maturana or Varela, and very surprized Checkland's 'Soft Systems Methodology' isn't mentioned, especially considering you're coming from a business angle specifically. Although I'm quite up on modern systems thinking it is still surprizing to me how the whole issue of power is left out of the equation. The relational approach from a scientific or personal angle can be very useful, but in a business environment it can still be used as a stick on emplyees, especially when considering who pays for the hiring of training consultants. In the systems community it took years before it was acknowledged as a problem.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: Michael Dettmers To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:40:27 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: Maturana and Varela have written an excellent book entitled “The Tree of Knowledge.” Varela’s book, “The Embodied Mind’ is also a great read. Varela, who died within the last year, is well-referenced in Jaworski’s book, “Synchronicity – the Inner Path of Leadership.” Linguistically, power is not a substance nor a mysterious property that some people have and others don’t, but rather an assessment – an assessment of a differential capacity for action. In other words, power has no meaning outside of the social context in which it is referenced. In business and in every other domain of action, accumulating power is connected with one’s capacity to invent or create offers that produce results that are assessed by others as more powerful, or relevant, or useful that those made by others.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: hamzen To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 18:53:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Tree of Knowledge I found absolutely superb, the Embodied Mind pretty good as well. Sorry to hear Varela's died, out of all the systems community I held him in the highest regard, the Jaworski one I will check out., thanks for the ref. Re power, of course that is the definition, but it leaves out the most crucial issue. Maybe this is because your income depends on it's use, but those in power who set up business agenda's such as training of staff know that there is the issue of job security and financial security involved in employees attitude. This gives leverage for the kind of social pressure and guru enhancement of the kind that Cynthis was talking about in her job training. It is even more true when company re-organization is taking place using systems modelling of the relativity type approach, because it can be used to cover up the power issues, and make the whole process appear to be more democratic and based upon multiple realities than is the case. It can give good cover for wolves in sheeps clothing, and I cannot believe you haven't given this issue some thought, or have not been aware of situations where you are seen as being a useful cover for this kind of issue, or are not aware of the literature within the systems community dealing with this very issue. Technically of course people always have a choice to resist or not, as Solzenitzyn so superbly showed during his internment, but equality of choice is not just about choice but social weightings of those choices. Bosses do not build up power bases being unaware of this.

Subject: Re: Re:your links From: Michael Dettmers To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 07:29:43 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I understand your’s and Cynthia’s point, and I share the concerns you have raised. I am my own person, not anyone’s puppet; I have my own company, and if you read my website, you have some idea about the values I bring to my work. My approach to organizational transformation is to ensure that the CEO and the senior team (of the company/group/division, etc.) are part of the process. Only when the principles have been firmly established, understood and accepted at that level, are they implemented throughout the rest of the organization. My purpose is to help organizations accelerate the process of learning so that they become more entrepreneurial in their responses to rapid changes in the marketplace. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you e-mail me so we can take it off-line as this has now become an OT discussion,IMO.

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:43:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: P.S. Michael, what's your website address? From: Michael Dettmers To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What in the world are you talking about? From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:09:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are, for instance, on the verge of witnessing a major change in the way we human beings understand language and its place in human life. What Thomas Kuhn would call a 'paradigm shift' is already underway. The emerging new paradigm has consequences reaching far beyond the intellectual boundaries of the academic research community. At stake in this shift is a new awareness of what constitutes reality, and the self. Where are you getting this from, Mike? That's a pretty strong, if vague, statement which just cries out for an explanation. I mean what is this? Frankly, and I say this with all due respect, it sounds to me like science fiction psychobabble. I mean, unless you can tell us more about when this 'new human being' is going to emerge and how, I'm sorry, but this just sounds weird. Even if you're right about the blind spots in our communication where do you get the idea that we're on the verge of such a radical 'paradigm shift'? And why, if this is all so real and imminent, doesn't the academic community join you in your prediction? Sorry, Mike, not sure what kind of response you expected or wanted. I, for one, am curious as hell as to how and where you're getting this stuff. --- I read it to mean the academic community already agrees with this idea and that the implications reach far beyond the academic research community. I think business will be the first place the new paradigm will take hold, mainly because they support this kind of linguistic research and hope to use it to improve their bottom line, which is fine with me. And that shift is away from hierarchical structures and the language that supports them, to more relational ones. That would be refreshing. I might even be employable under those circumstances...

Subject: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:14:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just like any philosopher or guru. A new paradigm of guru-ism in America. Great. Pity the emloyees of those corporations who take this shit, shove it down employees throats who have to eat it whole because they are employed! That's why I didn't leave that Flores workshop that Friday night. I needed the freaking job. Barf bag, please. I had my experience with the business management trainings once. That est like workshop shit the bed. Excuse my workin' class language, but I'm sick of scholars and their speak.

Subject: The Working Class.... From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 19:54:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...Can lick my ass, I've got the Foreman's job at last. (sung to the tune of the red flag) I've got a big problem with language reinventors myself,must be something to do with having read 1984 at an impressionable age. I'm convinced that a lot of this new age mind control in the workplace comes from former executive officers of cults setting themselves up as management consultants. Shit,they know the mechanics of it all don't they. The day someone tries to make me believe that the potato on my plate can be a negotiated reality with all the other diners around....I don't know. I'm getting away to Co.Kerry soon(holiday).Now there's a place where people know how to set their dogs onto gobshites. Maybe I'll come back refreshed as to the possibilities of resistance to those who want to crush the human spirit in the name of profit. Love: PatD

Subject: Re: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:29:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I kinda figured you had to sit through some management training EST thing. The ones I've nheard about sound terrible. I trust Michael has gone beyond that type of tripe. I believe he has some valueable things to say about employee management relations and consensus and team work building. Of course, I've been self employed since 1984 and the last time I was exposed to the corporate environment was with the now defunct computer manufacturer Wang Laboratories, in NYC. I'm hoping that this linguistic change leads to more freedom and participation for employees in the decisions directly affecting how they do their jobs.

Subject: Re: Except, Ger, they're worshipped... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:52:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, I wasn't working for a large corporation at the time. It was a tiny architectural office with 3 employees and an worshipper of a philosopher who still lives! I'm not trying to degrade Michael Dettmers here. I'm simply trying to point out that the new rage in corporate America is team training. And because employees are forced into it because of the fact they are employees, it's like sending someone to the wolves. Linguistics and it's study is a philosophy. Michael is free to say anything he wants here. I respect his honesty. I just don't want philosophy shoved down my face on an ex-cult forum. That's all. It pisses me off. Especially when spoken in terms of academia-speak, which for us common folk, is a total turn-off. Sometimes I think that certain conversations here are valuable, but very, very exclusionary. IF that's how you spell it. Cynthia

Subject: Linguistics/Chomsky From: Joe To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 14:13:47 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Cynthia, That must have been a weird seminar to have to attend. This is where I come out on this. No matter what 'good' there is in any philosophy, if somebody takes it and uses mind control in regard to it, and if there is some kind of a revered leader, then it's a cult. In your case, this whole idea that you can't question the teachings is mind control, pure and simple, no different from the mind control in the Maharaji cult that you aren't supposed to 'doubt' knowledge or Maharaji. The revered leader bullshit is another huge red flag. But there is a legitimate study of linquistics about how people learn language, how the brain works in processing language, and the whole relationship between language and the human mind. For example, Noam Chomsky at MIT, in the late 50s and early 60s, in the middle of the 'BF Skinner' era, proposed the then radical idea that at the heart of most human cognitive operations is a fixed, structured, biological directiveness. Rather than the 'blank slate' Skinner model, Chomsky's theories were revolutionary, that there is a very definite structure of concepts and of meaning intrinsic to our nature and as we acquire language they sort of grow in our brains, the same way we grow arms and legs. He thinks it's wrong that questions of the mind are studied differently that questions of the body. He says that systems of knowledge are directed substantially by our biological nature. Chomsky has been a big critic of Kuhn. Chomsky disputes Kuhn's notion that scientific knowledge is the product of community consensus and periodically changes in 'paradigm shifts.' In fact, he says that the 'second congnitive revolution' of the mid-1950s was a regression from advances made in earlier times, back to Descartes. So, he says the talk of 'paradigm shifts' is sort of bullshit and sees his own 'Chomskyan revolution' in linguistics as 'just normal progress.' Chomksy's theories are now widely accepted, resulting in the understanding that there is a certain developmental "window" during which humans acquire language, like from age 0-7. So, this is just a long-winded way of saying that there are linguists who don't accept Kuhn and who aren't about to start a cult around some linguistic theory, like what you apparently observed. And one thing being an ex-cult member gives you, IMO, is a super-sensitive ability to spot cult-bullshit a mile away. That's for sure. Thanks, Cynthia.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: janet To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 04:50:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey joe: re your comment 'Chomksy's theories are now widely accepted, resulting in the understanding that there is a certain developmental 'window' during which humans acquire language, like from age 0-7.'-- actually the window is open for a much smaller amount of time. there was research that was cited in a series in the Los Angeles Times a few years back, a weeklong feature on how the brain works, in which they made it known that along with inabilities which we already know, titled 'illiteracy' and 'innumeracy'[ being, respectively, the inability to read or write or understand symbols for spoken language, and the inability to understand or symbolize mathematic, arithmetic events], a newer and more disturbing disability has been emerging from recent studies- the failure to absorb and use verbal language for communication. the cases cited focused on families in which the youngest -the babies in arms-were handled and fed and diapered, washed, clothed, carried around or left in a pen, a stroller, a carseat, but no one ever spoke to them, interacted with them, spent time with them in unbroken attention, or worked with them intently to give them the understanding that hearing or making specific sounds meant specific things. The babies were just handled like they were dolls, things, extra baggage, something to be 'done to'. Not interacted with as a live, awake, aware, intelligent human being wanting to make sense of the world and other people around them. The results of these case studies revealed that babies who are not talked to in intently communicating, specific one on one attention fashion, grow up largely nonverbal. by age three, they cannot talk and cannot learn to talk. the chache is lost. no amount of 'remedial work' after that can reach them. the implications of this are stunning. you can forget worrying about illiteracy or innumeracy. If the person never absorbed and came to grasp language in any sense, the later skills are moot. It doesn not have to be audible lauguage, either. Babies born deaf have just as much craving and ability to absorb and master communicating in a language with those they see around them, and therefore deaf parents with hearing babies, or hearing parents with deaf babies, are being urgently told to use sign language and the same unbroken individual attention with their babies from the very beginning of life, to communicate with them and help them learn to communicate themselves back. babies hands are far more eloquent than most people appreciate, and signing babies prove to be astonishingly articulate in their use of the gestures they see and understand, and can 'speak' with their hands much earlier than babies whose language is verbal. a baby must hear a spoken word 5000 times before it can isolate it as a word and tries to utter it in recognition. a signing baby will reach that benchmark earlier than a speaking baby. personal history to support, here: i come from a very verbal family. very articulate. my son did not appear to understand sppoken language until he was at least 5 months old. I remember watching hard for any indication that he understood anything I said, and feeling a sense of despair from day one of his birth until a day when he was perhaps 5 or 6 months old, nursing in my arms, when I had this pang of sadness and wondered if he was ever going to understand what I was saying to him. to my shock, he suddenly stiffened and his eyes flew open and he fixed me with a look, took his mouth off the nipple, and very clearly said the closest thing his infant mouth could shape, to utter his own name: 'teppan'. [his name is Stepan] he grinned, watched my eyes for a reaction, and then laughed! satisfied that he had allayed my woe, he happily went back to nursing and didn't utter another recognizable word until he was 9 months old. he babbled, he tried out various mouth sounds, but no words until the next landmark, when he toddled up to his father who was ill in bed, and in the same intonation i always used, clearly looked him in the eye and said 'Da-vid' and regarded him, expecting a response. It was perhaps a month after that, at 10 months, when he first clearly reacted to a verbal command and we knew [he and I] that he had broken the code of talking. We were in a store and saw his brand of diapers in a stacked display. He recognized the box from our stash at home, and from my arms promptly reached over to grab one from somewhere not at the top of the pyramid. I blurted out 'NO!' in panic, afraid the display would come down, and for the first time, he froze in mid reach, looked at me acutely, and pulled his tiny hand back. I was thrilled to realize he understood the word. I hugged him and exclaimed 'you understood me! you got it!' and danced him up the aisle, laughing. he was laughing too. Then i immediately took him back to the display and tested him, so he could show me and i could find out if he really did understand. I 'd tell him 'ok-get the diapers' and he'd reach for them, and I'd suddenly utter 'NO!', and he'd pull back, and look at me to see if he did right. and I'd nod. Then I'd tell him again to get the boz, and he'd reach, and I'd say' No!' again, and he'd pull back and look at me. we made a game of it. I walked him up to other things, and he'd point at something, and i'd nod, he'd reach, and I'd say'no' again. so he went from understanding 'no' for the diapers in that one breakthrough instance, in that display, to understanding that 'no' applied to anything around, to understanding that getting it right was an occasion that made me happy that he understood, to his trying it out for himself. he didnt realize it, but he got 'yes' at the same time. we ended the day in the stor by me taking him back to the diaper pyramid and letting him point at different boxes, look to me and watching to see if i said no, pulling back and picking a different one and watching what I'd do and say to that one, and when he finally pointed to one that was safe to pull down and throw in the basket, i nodded and said yes and indicated he could pull it down and throw it in the cart. it may have looked silly to anyone watching us, but it was a landmark 'paradigm shift' for both of us, where we crossed from the estrangement and isolation of being unable to know what one another meant, thought, knew, wanted,desired-- to suddenly being able to move into the same reality and know that we were communicating about the same thing. we had come a long way from the day when he was still too small to crawl or sit up alone, when he sobbed in my arms for something I could not figure out, and i too began to cry from not being able to understand what he was trying to tell me. that was a paradign shift day for him. it was the first time he realized that I didn't know everything and couldnt do everything for him, and that I was unhappy about not being able to. i remember the look of shock in his eyes when he saw me start to cry. he got very serious and studied, then finally leaned out over my arms, indicating that he wanted me to put him down on the carpet, and he slithered over to whatever it was he wanted, learning self sufficiency and that mom didn't know everything. --- --- --- - all that said, nonetheless, I have aproblem with this assertion that we are in a paradigm shift by virtue of language. which i will take up in some other posts.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: Joe To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 13:51:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Janet. I hadn't heard about that, although it does make sense about the need for verbal stimulation at such an early age. And I also agree that there isn't a 'paradigm shift' by virtue of language. Like Chomsky says, I think it's more likely just normal progress as we find out more information.

Subject: Re: Linguistics/Chomsky.even younger Joe... From: Barbara To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:46:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: all that said, nonetheless, I have aproblem with this assertion that we are in a paradigm shift by virtue of language. which i will take up in some other posts. Hi Janet: Pretty scary the thought that there are kids out there who don't learn to speak because they're not spoken to. As for your above statement, I'd surmise that language reflects a shift rather than creates it. Something interesting to think about though.

Subject: You ought to get out more From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:04:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Talk to ravers about their drug experiences and even on psychedelics they don't experience it as anything but a psycho construct whereas we had a strong tendency to experience that shit as real, see Leary, BeHere Now etc. Made us perfect fodder for a 'guru' whereas now gurus are so passe.

Subject: I have no idea what you're talking about From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:13:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Ham, I don't know what you mean. If you do, kindly advise. :)

Subject: The New Gurus: Intellectual Snobs! From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:09:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With no respect for us common folk. I'm so sick of academia-speak I could puke. I don't like it, that's probably why I steer clear of educational institutions. YUCK!

Subject: Fernando Flores, Thomas Kuhn, and Linguistics... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:50:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, with all due respect, You are talking about linguistics, a philosophy of both Fernando Flores and Thomas Kuhn, correct? Both involved in linguistics, both were at MIT and Stanford? I attended a weekend workshop in 1989, at the request of my employer, it was a Logonet (Flores' company) workshop about team building. Now it's called Business Design Associates. Fernando Flores is founder. The first Friday workshop was conducted in a manner very similar to est (but we were allowed bathroom breaks). During the long Saturday workshop, after one man was berated and demeaned for over two hours by the workshop leader (until he agreed with the philosophy and made personal admissions in tears in front of about 60 workshop participants), I questioned what the hell was going on. The group-speak was obvious, weird and cultish. I was told that questioning was ignorance. If anyone refused to succumb to the training line of thinking, they were told to leave the workshop immediately. (Or, in the case of that poor man, berated until he submitted.). The group leader was treated with awe, like a saint or something. I was told that because I didn't know (hadn't taken enough courses to understand) I would never know, so had no right to question the philosophy. Now I know that it what I was questioning was mass therapy. To me, a cult is a cult, or mass therapy disguised as a business team-building workshop. That Saturday night, because I was staying with one of the Logonet's employees (which was also weird), I went out to dinner with Flores' inner circle, including the group leader (who everyone deferred to and treated like a mahatma). I was told by my hostess that I should be honored to be in his presence. That group had 'group speak' that was stranger than the Maharajism cult. Instead of saying things like 'I hear what you're saying' they would say 'I listen what you are saying.' Inventing and creating their lives were involved too, but it's been a long time so I don't remember all their group-speak. 'Paradigm' took up a lot of the vocabulary, though. Flores was worshipped, too. I remember one day I was at work here in Vermont, and my boss and his wife got a call from Boston (where Logonet had their company at the time) and were told that Fernando Flores was coming to Boston for dinner at another follower of Flores, who happens to be extremely wealthy, and they were invited. It was dinner with Flores and his inner circle. My employers literally dropped everything to go, including their kids Whenever Flores was anywhere, available for these people to meet with him, they literally dropped their lives for him. And then I got follow up calls to sign up for their computer intranet courses which ran from $5,000 to $10,000 per. I told the woman I wasn't interested. She told me I couldn't possibly know if I was interested until I took the courses! That I was ignorant! Michael, thanks for sharing, but I think you need to be clear about what you're sharing here about your current beliefs. Linguistics is a philosophy, a way of looking at things, which, in my one experience, sent me running the other way. Cynthia

Subject: Sounds like M's trainings From: Francesca To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 17:34:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This sounds a lot like John MacGregor's Amaroo training descriptions and Chris P's descriptions of other trainings. I think part of the difference we are talking here is philosophies and ideas v. people who make themselves gurus by creating teachings and trainings which are corrupted (and co-opted) versions of the same philosophies and ideas. Corporate trainings that I've heard of are often (but not always) pass-the-barf-bag stuff, and to me is the new version of corporate guru-ism. Not only that, but employees' jobs are often cut to pay for the likes of the Tim Gallways of the world to come and teach you something you didn't really need to know. I heard that several large corporation had paintball wars with their executives for 'team building' as part of a training seminar. Corporate 'retreats' is another version of the same. The content can be valuable or can be more filler. Michael D sounds like he's talking about food, and Flores' seminars are what happens after the food passes out the bod and into the crapper. What a horrible experience you must have had! LOLs Francesca

Subject: Yeah Neuro-linguistic bullshit... From: Cynthia To: Are you talking about Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 18:50:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bullshit is bullshit. However fancy you want to say it. However dumb you want to make me sound. Big fucking deal. Crooks are crooks. I'm out of this fucking place. Academic snobs!

Subject: Hey i hope yer not mad at me... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 22:13:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: T. Kuhn From: Barbara To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:07:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia: The link is one of Kuhn's obits. He was at MIT for some time. I've read Kuhn, but never heard of Flores, and I'm really ignorant of linguistics. From your description, Flores sounds like you know who which must've been pretty strange (and costly) for you to run across. It's pretty abstract stuff and definitely comes across as a total non-sequitur in this thread. Gotta run. Hope you're well. Kuhn the-tech.mit.edu/V116/N28/kuhn.28n.html

Subject: Hi Barbara... From: Cynthia To: Barbara Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 13:12:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I already look up both Kuhn and Flores. Two peas in a pod. And Flores rakes in the $$ for his pod. Actually, Kuhn is dead, so he's off the hook except for his philosophy of which he has many followers. It's about linguistics, the study of computers/man/language and is bunk.

Subject: Nice little essay, Michael From: gerry To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:45:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had to read it a couple of times, but I found it well worth the effort. Hopefully, R2 and others will give it some thought.

Subject: Turning on a paradigm From: Pullaver To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:11:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I am saying is that about that reality we know nothing, since all knowledge itself is completely linguistic. Reality always shows up within a 'linguistic clearing.' But Michael, Maharaji is purported to be the revealer of the Word that cannot be spoken. He deals in experiential phenomena with which he attaches metaphysical significance. You know, 'In the beg'ning was the Word; the Word was with God; and the Word was God.' You can mount a linguistic argument against the cosmological theory but any good devotee worth his salt will tell you it's all in the experience.

Subject: Re: Turning on a paradigm From: Michael Dettmers To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:40:42 (EST) Email Address: dettmers@gylanix.com Message: I’ve made the following point a few times in the past, but perhaps it bears repeating. As biological beings, our nervous systems cannot distinguish between perception and illusion. Just go for a 3-D ride at one of the Orlando theme parks to understand what I am talking about. Of course, intellectually we may know it is an illusion, but our nervous system experiences it as “reality.” Hence, to address your point, it is necessary to distinguish between a phenomenon (experience) and its interpretation (the story we have about it). I don’t waste time arguing about anyone’s experience. People experience whatever they experience (whether perception or illusion). However, the whole argument proffered by Richard II is an interpretation – an interpretation that “the Master’s value is priceless.” No interpretation is the “truth.” Remember my analogy to the phenomenon of “gravity” and it’s various interpretations over time, most notably by Newton and subsequently by Einstein. Each had a different interpretation of the same phenomenon which, in the old paradigm, compelled its adherents to claim the interpretation as the “truth.” What makes an interpretation powerful or relevant, as distinct from being the “truth”, is whether or not it enables people to take effective action. My argument is that the whole concept of a Master who dispenses or reveals the “truth” is an anachronism.

Subject: Turning on a paradigm From: Opie To: Michael Dettmers Date Posted: Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 12:14:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My argument is that the whole concept of a Master who dispenses or reveals the “truth” is an anachronism. Brilliant Michael. Was chatting to an friend a few days ago and we wondered where and how the concept that there could only be one Perfect Master at any one time came about. Now, of course, it is easy to understand why there are so many masters out there claiming perfection. :) Was wondering if GM ever gave any insight into this exclusivity beyond just making the banal statement that it is so. This was simply a hook. BTW I was vaguely aware of Thomas Kuhn. Did he precede or follow Karl Popper in the discussions of linguistics? I find your posts very interesting and inspires me to do some more research. Think I may go to the following link but if you have other suggestions I would be glad to hear of them. Opie's next reading project! warmly OP

Subject: The Master's morals are not relevant From: PatC To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:27:42 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: Actually, Richard ll, I enjoyed your post. I felt that it was respectful and not really seething with the anger one often gets from reading a real cult-apologist's stuff. You said: ''I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master.'' Right from the beginning when I first heard of M 30 years ago, I personally thought that he was a conman. Most of my friends at the time did too. Slowly over the next two years many of those friends succumbed to M and finally out of desperation so did I. I spent the next 28 years telling myself that the M's morals were not relevant because he had shown me god. I don't know exactly when I began to realize the following stuff in perfect chronological order but it accumulated over the past few years until I am now an ex-premie. I always detested the cult but tolerated it because it was helping M to spread Knowledge of God. Then I left and had nothing to do with premies for many years until a couple of years ago when I decided that I wanted to part of spreading K because I enjoyed it so much. The remaining premies all seemed to think that the cult had gotten better but it seemed to me that it had gotten worse and that the premies were much less happy than they used to be. I began to question, read a bit of EPO and realized two things immediately. Rawat was not the owner of the techniques or even the experience and that there was big possibility that he was not THE master and in fact was probably a fool and a fraud. When I first started posting here I still thought that he may in fact be the Big Cheese but his lack of morals pissed me off so much that I figured I'd oppose him no matter what (yes, it was scary.) In fact I said to a premie who used to post here that I didn't care of he was god almighty - he still had to obey the rules of democracy and common decency. The reason that I still thought he may be The One was because of the concepts that I had about K - the Maharajism religion that he had fed me - that it was god, eternity, The Truth etc. Slowly as I got rid of the concepts that he had stuffed into me, I began to see that K may be none of those things. I still meditate but I tend to think of it as brain chemistry, brain yoga, relaxation. Sure I still see some pretty amazing things but I also know that I really can't put a dogmatic label on what it is. I simply enjoy it without having religious concepts about it. If you can still reconcile your own morals with M's lack of ethics, responsibility and respect for his students, that's fine with me. I could not. As long as you can sleep well at night and look people in the face and announce proudly that he is your master then I have no quarrel with you and wish you only well. I know he is not as evil as Hitler which is why I don't feel that much anger and hatred for him anymore (I did when I first began to realize I had been duped) and why I wish him no harm - but that will not stop me from criticising and condemning him as a greedy and superficial person who has done more harm than good.

Subject: To be aware of the timeless. From: PatD To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:21:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice touch R2. Move those mirrors & blow that smoke. Glad to know someone has finally realised knowledge.Get out there & shout it from the rooftops...Satguru has come. Never mind that He has chosen to manifest Himself in the all too human frame of Prem etc Rawat,paradox made flesh(hypocrite is for non students),never mind,He's the master regardless. yeah,what if heisthe true master......we're all fucked,& you too for having the nerve to disobey him by posting on the internet. Sayonara motherfucker.

Subject: Re: To be aware of the timeless. From: R2 To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:37:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice touch R2. Move those mirrors & blow that smoke. Glad to know someone has finally realised knowledge.Get out there & shout it from the rooftops...Satguru has come. Never mind that He has chosen to manifest Himself in the all too human frame of Prem etc Rawat,paradox made flesh(hypocrite is for non students),never mind,He's the master regardless. yeah,what if heisthe true master......we're all fucked,& you too for having the nerve to disobey him by posting on the internet. Sayonara motherfucker. --- Sweet.

Subject: Powerful post Richard II From: Deputy dog =) To: Richard II Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:04:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said in one of your coming out posts that as a premie there are two conditions concerning the EPO accusations, with each of them giving rise to different courses of actions. You said, if the accusations being leveled by ex’s are not true then this site is doing a disservice to man, and if they are true there would be no alternative but to stop following him. I wanted to raise another possibility. That the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master. To entertain this possibility you need to have an appreciation for what a Master means to a student. And to understand that, you need to be a student. If I ask what in life matters, the responses to this question would be entirely subjective. That is because we each have our own reference point that determines what is valuable to us. To a student –- of life that is: ie, of truth, reality, whatever you want to call it -– what matters is knowing. Knowing what? Okay, let me get poetic for a minute. To see what occupies the void. To hear what is heard in silence. To feel what has no beginning or end. To be aware of the timeless. Does this kind of stuff matter to non-students? Of course not. Most people don’t believe such things are even possible, so they don’t value it. Instead they come up with other icons to revere: country, community, family –- you know the story. Now, does knowing truth, reality, etc. have any value from an absolute point of view? If you were to believe for a moment the scriptures and poets who describe these things as being the true riches of life, then you would have to value them absolutely -– intellectually at least. So assume for a moment what has been said of the Master -- that his only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. How special would that make this person in the scheme of things? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. To students who value knowing these things, the Master’s value is priceless. So Dep, here’s what happens. You stop experiencing. Maybe you stop practicing. Or maybe you practice but those nagging doubts don’t let you go much deeper a freckle. That stops you from believing. Then like most other people in this world, that stops you from valuing. And what then of the Master? That’s easy. At first he just gets relegated to the same level as the rest of our leaders. And if he fits our model for a leader – which is probably a collective mix of political, religious, professional, and cultural leadership -- we can still find a place for him in our lives, for a while. If he does not meet our expectations, hey, you got no choice but to walk. So here’s an interesting thought. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Something would have to give, eh Dog? --- Excellent post Richard II. You raise a very interesting point that I quite frankly had not considered. What if the accusations are true, but Maharaji is still in fact the true Master? Hmmmmmmm. Sheeeeeeesh! What a question! A few nights ago my wife told me that she doesn’t mind what I feel about Maharaji as long as I 'strive to be like a lotus.' I think this is excellent advice. Is that a good enough answer? I think I can be a student of life without being a student of Maharaji. Suppose I accept your premise that the Master’s only role in life is to impart to students the ability to know truth, reality, whatever. Shouldn’t he also teach us by example, and not simply by imparting meditation techniques? Shouldn’t he have to work a little bit to earn our respect and admiration as well? And how can I tell my friends about this man. 'Here take this video. Maharaji will show you how to go inside and contact the truth. Oh and by the way, he also drinks excessively, smokes like a chimney, runs around on his wife, killed a guy with his car and had someone else take the blame, continually asks for money to spread Knowledge but uses this money to live an obscenely extravagant lifestyle . . . etc.' How special is that? How many students is this Master going to have? If anything, having a lousy reputation is bad for business. He should know that. And what if the allegations have no relevance concerning Maharaji as Master? Well IMO character is important even for a true Master. I simply can’t take advice from a person who says one thing and does another. Some might even call this type of behaviour hypocritical. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But if Maharaji decides to come clean with his followers, who knows, I might even consider returning (I said consider). After EPO, however, I definitely find it difficult to look at Maharaji as I did before. Sorry Richard II. See I’m a simple 'walk your talk - practice what you preach' kinda guy. And if the accusations -- true or false -- have no relevance concerning Maharaji as a Master, that would mean I would have to devalue my values and lower my standards. I don't feel like doing that. I have weighed the stories on EPO and their relevance to my personal first hand experience and I have done what feels right for me. Something has changed. I no longer feel the same way. I have walked, not from Knowledge, but from Maharaji. When I meditate I want emptiness, spaciousness, the void. I have had enough controversial thoughts about Maharaji in my head. If anything, he is now getting in the way. So I now consider myself a post-premie (to use a phrase coined by Mark Appleman). From now on it’s just between me and God. The worst thing that can happen to me is that I don’t go to any more programs. Fine, I can live with that. The past is dead and gone, we can’t bring it back, and we can’t change it. And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. I also choose to believe that everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us. So instead of fussing and fretting about this predicament, I asked myself, 'What I can get out of this that will serve me? How can I turn this lemon into lemonade?' Well, I can thank Maharaji for finally turning me to Buddhist practice. The emptiness and cleanliness of Theravada and Zen Buddhism has always been more suited to my temperament than bhakti yoga. I also feel safer and more confident when I practice vipassana because no fallible human personalities are getting in the way. In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus.

Subject: And what if there ISN'T karma? From: Jim To: Deputy dog =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 18:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie.

Subject: the justice system Jim??? From: then why are you in To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 05:50:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that seems like a really disingenuous question, coming from someone who's a criminal defense lawyer. if you didn't beleive in karma, you would never have gone into Law.

Subject: DO YOU KNOW THE RULES HERE OR NOT? From: Jim To: then why are you in Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:29:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw you, posting with out a handle. Anyway, you're absolutely right, no one could possibly get involved in the law without believing in karma. What was I thinking? LOL!

Subject: Re: And what if there ISN'T karma? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 22:36:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma.

Subject: Get real, Dog From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:12:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma. --- Here was your FULL quote: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. I was merely making the obvious point that if the rest of us had felt that way, you'd still be a premie. In other words, no EPO, no forum(s), no disclosure, no endless parade of exes concerned enough to try to knock some sense into you. So don't give me this bullshit about how 'woefully ignorant of the concept' (I thought you didn't have those, by the way?) I am. By your own words, you're content to just let things happen however they will, without your involvement. When you say stuff like this: In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus. it sounds like you aren't exactly the person who'd ever do anything for the woman with the broken leg. Why bother, eh? Let's face it, Dog, you might not want to admit it but you owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Can't you see that?

Subject: oo gratitude. debt. too familiar From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 06:01:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: watch out JIm. ou're turning into maharaji, there. it isnt enough to set someone free? they have to now turn around and chain themselves in guilt and shame to the agents to set them free? Dep had the freedom [and the perversity] at all times to believe or not beleive what we presented him with. thousands seem to be reading this board. they all see the same postings. but no one knows what they think as a result, save , they themselves. it drives you nuts when you can't get someone to see things your way. now it drives you up a wall when someone finally does? Jim, no one else on earth is you. you can't make little tin soldier copies if yourself out of the whole world and then march your army of clones upon the Enemy. there are many ways to Leave. 50 ways to leave your lover? remember? Dep has gotten it right for him. he isnt you. he doesnt have to be. and there is a hell of a lot of wisdom in what he says of his own choices. he arrived at his change freely of his own process. not because you harangued him to. what is on the site for one and all speaks for itself. i know you love to go after people and argue them like a dog chasing cars, and then think that because you chased them, they left. but like those car i hate to burst your bubble: they were headed in that direction regardless of your barking. you wanna feel important. you wanna take the credit. but even without you, they would arrive at their own decision, anyway. this gratitude refrain is just a little too much like the 'knowledge is free'' now you owe the master forever, give give give because i freed you and I want want want.' you're still in the clutches of the ashram/propagation/spread this knowledge' mindset Jim. only difference is, the knowledge you want to spread is now the knowledge About maharaji, not the knowledge techniques as shown By maharaji. take a look at yourself, there. deep programming, still unbroken. making you act and talk the same as it made you do when you were a full blown ashramie. dep's broken free. you could gain a lot by listening to him.

Subject: Janet, you're mad From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 11:35:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely mad, Janet. Maharaji does not own 'gratitude', stupid. When someone like Dog, who only finally sees through Maharaji because of the certain efforts of those who put together EPO and those who drove the relevant points through his new age-muddled head for the last several years, finally leaves, it's a bit much for him to then lecture the rest of us about how he is not going to get stuck in negativty, blah, blah, blah by 'attacking' Maharaji. Were it not for many of us thinking otherwise, thinking that we should do something, Dog would still be a premie. Anyway, don't bother responding.

Subject: Re: Janet, you're mad From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:22:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely mad, Janet. Maharaji does not own 'gratitude', stupid. When someone like Dog, who only finally sees through Maharaji because of the certain efforts of those who put together EPO and those who drove the relevant points through his new age-muddled head for the last several years, finally leaves, it's a bit much for him to then lecture the rest of us about how he is not going to get stuck in negativty, blah, blah, blah by 'attacking' Maharaji. Were it not for many of us thinking otherwise, thinking that we should do something, Dog would still be a premie. Anyway, don't bother responding. --- Jim, here is what I said: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. We pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. You can attack M all you like, just don't let it affect your health. Just don’t let this situation continue to negatively affect and sour your life. Come to think of it, perhaps in your case it’s already too late. IMO one of the biggest killers in the world is not cancer, heart disease, AIDS, malaria etc, it’s grudgitus. Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot That it do singe yourself. -- Shakespeare

Subject: You stupid ingrate! From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 15:35:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point stands. You would still be a premie if it weren't for a lot of us and all you can do is lecture us about our 'sour lives'. You're not putting it altogether, Dog. But then that's really no surpirse, is it? You played dumb as a premie and now you're playing dumb as an ex. Whatever.

Subject: Re: You stupid ingrate! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 18:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point stands. You would still be a premie if it weren't for a lot of us and all you can do is lecture us about our 'sour lives'. You're not putting it altogether, Dog. But then that's really no surpirse, is it? You played dumb as a premie and now you're playing dumb as an ex. Whatever. --- Our sour lives? I'm saying that we pay a price for our resentment and hatred. We pay for it with high blood pressure, heart ttouble, stomach ulcers, our health and our happiness etc. Most exes are civil, well-mannered, and gracious.

Subject: Re: You stupid ingrate! From: Dep =) To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 09:18:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point stands. You would still be a premie if it weren't for a lot of us and all you can do is lecture us about our 'sour lives'. You're not putting it altogether, Dog. But then that's really no surpirse, is it? You played dumb as a premie and now you're playing dumb as an ex. Whatever. --- Our sour lives? I'm saying that we pay a price for our resentment and hatred. We pay for it with high blood pressure, heart ttouble, stomach ulcers, our health and our happiness etc. Most exes are civil, well-mannered, and gracious. --- Jim, I must admit, I'm still a little ticked about your calling me a 'stupid ingrate.' So please allow me to make amends. I'll back off from my previous argument just a little bit. Jim, I'll make an exception in your case. You can be as resentful and hateful as you want. Go right ahead and heat up the furnace for your foe as hot as you can. Ahhhhh, that feels better.

Subject: Re: Get real, Dog From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 23:23:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. Cop out. Lucky for you there are others who don't feel this way. Otherwise, you'd still be a premie. --- I don't get this! Do you mean that countries that believe in karma don't have police forces or legal systems? Countries like India and Japan, for example. Even Christian countries tacitly believe in karma as indicated in scripture such as 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap.' Do you mean that if I believe in karma, when I see a woman lying on the sidewalk with a broken leg, I pass by without doing anything, because it must be her karma to be there? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the concept. And please note that also I say that I choose to believe in karma. --- Here was your FULL quote: And if it’s any consolation to you, I’m not going to spend my time attacking Maharaji on Forum VII. When we hate someone we give that person power over us, power over our sleep, our blood pressure, our digestion, our ability to appreciate the beauty of life. Our hate does not hurt them at all. And I’m sure Maharaji doesn’t give a shit about what people are saying about him here. He has enough money and doesn’t care. So unlike some exes, I’m just going to move on. Forgive and forget, live and let live, all those tried and true clichés. What you resist is what you get. If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. God is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated. As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. I was merely making the obvious point that if the rest of us had felt that way, you'd still be a premie. In other words, no EPO, no forum(s), no disclosure, no endless parade of exes concerned enough to try to knock some sense into you. So don't give me this bullshit about how 'woefully ignorant of the concept' (I thought you didn't have those, by the way?) I am. By your own words, you're content to just let things happen however they will, without your involvement. When you say stuff like this: In closing, let me say to all exes that we pay an exorbitant price for our grudges and bitterness. We pay for it with our life, our peace of mind, and our health. So I for one am not going to squander my life resenting Maharaji and trying to get even. And I’ve had enough of all this controversy and 'what if, what if . . .' I just want to meditate and feel peaceful. So I’m moving on. And with the time I have left, I’m going to do my best to be happy and successful and to live a golden life. I might even take a shot at being like a lotus. it sounds like you aren't exactly the person who'd ever do anything for the woman with the broken leg. Why bother, eh? Let's face it, Dog, you might not want to admit it but you owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Can't you see that? --- As you clearly state, you're content to let Maharaji's karma deal with him. Am I? Or am I simply acknowledging the fact that there is nothing legal that can be done. Do you think M will end up in jail? I don't. Okay I admit it. I owe a major debt to EPO and its contributors. Thank you all.

Subject: Deputy Pup, since yer a baby ex... From: Gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 20:55:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, wasn't that what they used to call the new fish, er premies? 'Baby premies?' Anyway, let me transpose two letters in this paragraph and we'll upgrade your essay to a 'B-:' If there is such a thing as karma (and I chose to think there is) Maharaji will get what’s coming to him, as will we all. Dog is in control. I don’t have to worry. If anything, I’m sorry for Maharaji. He must feel incredibly lonely and isolated.

Subject: Re: Powerful post Richard II From: R2 To: Deputy dog =) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:54:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best of luck Dep. Hey, maybe we’ll bump into each other somewhere along the way and chat some more.

Subject: Re: Powerful post Richard II From: Deputy Dog To: R2 Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 17:15:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks R2. People often poke fun of me here because I like to include quotes in a lot of my posts. Here is one that I think is particularly appropriate for you: This above all--to thine own self be true. . . Thou canst not then be false to any man. -- Shakespeare Goodspeed. And best of luck to you too.

Subject: R2-a coupla questions... From: Jim S. To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1-What if m is 'the true master'? Can you explain this one? How would you qualify this? How would you really know whether or not m is 'the true master'? (Is it because he told you he is? Because of the techniques that you can now get on a dvd, or from hundreds of other gurus?) Just curious how you can make a statement like that.... 2-Do you think maharaji is a liar? If you don't, I'd like to point out a few things to you. How can you follow a liar? How can you believe him? 3-Why does maharaji tell premies to tell others about him, and try to entice new people into his trip, when he knows what a slime-ball he really is. Are you proud of the fact that he does this, which can embarass and possibly ruin certain aspects of premies lives.

Subject: Re: To the good Deputy From: michael donner To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:49:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow. i am no longer a 'student' of that master you refer to and yet i value those things you mentions...a great deal. are you impling that m is the only way to those things/? seems so as you continuously use the singular not plural master (s). is he the only one in your book? also, how does one evaluate a true master (assuming there is such a thing)? if it is by the gift given then ask around and see how many folks that still follow him are really having the kind of experience advertized. but, i think its more then just the fruit he would give others...its what having eaten the fruit in his own life looks like and feels like that might also give an indication of the master's value to others. m has a history of blaming others, creating co-dependent relationships that disimpower others, of being greedy and self serving while pose as the opposite. i experienced during the years around him that he 'seemed' not to practice the knowledge he 'taught/preached'. i cant help but think that if one practices rubbing against the real truth/love/peace (what ever) that one would become a bit of those things... it is clear that the practice of this master has not made him a better person...nasty judgement i know...but by most common standards m is not a wonderful man. it hasn't seemed to help him deal with his adictions, his projecting constantly, his paranoia, etc...could we reasonably expect a master to be living a decent life? i still can't shake that imagination that the practice of knowledge should affect positive change in ones character.

Subject: Rubbing the 'real' From: Jerry To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 11:49:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Here's what I wonder. If Knowledge is all THAT, wouldn't it lead to better character in an individual? So here's what I'm thinking. Let's say you're practicing K and you're becoming a better person because of it, your backbone is growing stronger daily, and you begin to see that Maharaji doesn't have much of a backbone himself. Wouldn't it only follow that people who's character is growing stronger from practicing K are sooner or later going to see that Maharaji is a fraud? So, why does it take so long for people to see that, if K really is all that people crank it up to be?

Subject: Re: Rubbing the 'real' From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 12:38:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good point about character. I've been thinking today, why do so many premies have dubious morals? Is it because M has so little apparent respect for the mores of the 'world'? And premies just follow suit in all sorts of little ways? I remember getting on a plane with a bunch of premies once to go to a programme in America, and a premie I was with managed to get on without a ticket. 'Maharaji's grace' he murmured as he sank into a seat. It happened all the time, and I wasn't innocent either (although I didn't go as far as stowing away on planes!) - I just thought none of it really mattered, because it was only M's world that really counted. I've read some books about near death experiences, though, and whatever they are, people often come back with a deeply felt sense that what really matters in life is to give love. To be kind and generous-spirited. Those experiences are often quite life-transforming and the people who have them can be fundamentally changed for the better. Does the practise of Knowledge transform or ennoble people's character? I would say generally not. And surely it's reasonable to ask why not? If the Knowledge really is what R2 is claiming it to be? Why doesn't character really matter in Maharaji's world? Best, Livia

Subject: Great point, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 15:19:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I don't particularly like this R2 person but I wanted to resond to your question: Why do so many premies have dubious morals? My experience while in the cult included intense programming, repetition, exhaustion, and fear. I had to believe that I had the 'Knowledge of all knowledges.' The 'knowing' part rather than a 'belief' that m is the living lord contributes to this immoral or amoral behavior. I did things while very close to m that I knew were illegal, not just immoral. It was in direct resonse to his requests. I firmly believe that it's part of the cult-programming that places a person in a position of being fearful of not following orders. In the instance of a premie who is not physically close to m, the mentality is the same and explained as 'lila' or 'by his grace.' I'm not proud of the things I did on m's behalf that certainly could have gotten me arrested (and I probably would have lied at that time to hold maharaji harmless), yet I know that my mind and my system of morality weren't hooked up at the time. I certainly take responsibility, as all adults must, for my actions. This issue of morality among premies is an important one. Striving to be like the Master (perfect, enlightened, or realized) the knowing part of Maharaji as 'Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer' also instills great fear of not doing the right thing, even if that conscience in the back of our heads was saying 'no, no, no' this is wrong. It's a type of spiritual ego for followers of a personality cult leader which is simply false because maharaji is so amoral himself, and the facts on EPO bear this out. I think that meditation (as taught by m) also plays a large part in placing people in a vulnerable state of mind (or lack of mind) and character, so morals fly out the window. Deference to the god-in-a-bod. He is quite tyrannical and scary. Btw, have you read Joe's post above about Shaw? It's quite good. I think you'd relate. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 07, 2002 at 08:24:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, Thanks, I've just read Joe's post about Shaw, and yes it's brilliant, and yes I do relate. I shall bear all that information closely in mind when attemting to engage with current premies about all this stuff. It explains so much. Love, Livia X

Subject: Conventional morality, the Gita, and M From: Carl To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 13:13:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow I ended up with the notion, reinforced by the mahatmas, that 'remember Me and fight' -- Krishna's famous battlefield dictum to Arjunu -- meant one could and should practice holy name in all situations, even those entailing assaults upon conventional morality, and one would be essentially or spiritually free of the moral consequences. Actions performed under 'agya' were understood as liberating no matter what the conventional judgments of society or the legal system would be. Arjuna's kin, whom he was about to slay at Krishna's behest, were all dead anyway, presumably because they did not recognize Krishna as Lord and revealer of the Knowledge. Jesus propounded much the same with his 'Follow me. Let the dead bury the dead' and his other challenges to Pharisaic law. This notion that a devotee and a master transcend mere conventional, 'worldly', moral choices of right and wrong is deeply ingrained in M and his premies world. This is probably true for Scientologists and most other cults. This gives them the chutzpa to flout or skirt any laws as may $ituationally $uit them. And maybe, just maybe, that is not an altogether bad thing in theory. That is, there is a need for outmoded thinking to be challenged and laws changed from time to time. Otherwise we'd still be burned at the stake for believing the earth revolves around the sun. But it can also happen that the 'master is above it all' concept, as self-servingly interpreted by a shallow master and his venal cohorts, is merely the justification (consciously or not) to abuse and swindle the gullible. And most of us were 'had'. C.

Subject: great nutshell Micheal From: bill To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 00:15:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: m has a history of blaming others, creating co-dependent relationships that disimpower others, of being greedy and self serving while pose as the opposite.

Subject: A comment RII From: Richard To: Richard II Date Posted: Mon, Mar 04, 2002 at 23:23:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard II, If you can take an honest and open-minded look at the 14 Objections and then sit before M and take him seriously, then you're the devotee he wants and he's the master for you. I haven't said that to anyone in quite awhile but you seem sincere. In fact, the last time I said it was to SHP(aka Sandy). Anybody know where he is these days? Richard, Original Postie Recipe 14 Objections www.ex-premie.org/pages/objection.htm

Subject: RE: your comment From: R2 To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 05, 2002 at 02:09:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have joined the same choir as mr. donner (who doesn't believe in capital letters because everything is equal) and others in this thread, who sing a song so imbalanced that Maharaji is actually compared to the likes of Hitler. Or the owners of the pit-bulls that mauled to death that lady in SF. Now that just amazes me. Why? Well because there are quite a number of people -- people who have spent more intimate time around him than mr. donner -- who paint an entirely different picture. One of kindness, compassion, respect. Staggering disonence, don't you think? Look Dick, as for those 14 objections, they are a compilation of a group of disgruntled people who desperately needed to articulate the venom and spite they were feeling. There is no objectivity. No fairness. No answers given. Just a lot of bile. Bile that you all make a steady diet of every freakin' day of your freakin' lives. Jeezus! And besides, you missed the point of my post -- surprise, surprise. That being, compared to the priceless gift my Master reveals to me, those objections don't even register on the scale. If it does for you, I have to ask: did you experience much more than just the surface stuff? The little I've seen of the potential in a moment makes me highly value Maharaji's insight, clarity, and kindness to take the time to teach me about it. I don't mean to sound arrogant but one thing I know for sure is that there is so much beauty that goes untapped due to unconsciousness. And I cut him a lot of slack just to keep learning about it. But hey Richard, forget about it -- if you don't get it you don't get it. But one thing, you guys really gotta get a grip about. He's not Hitler or anything resembling that. How out of touch is that? Not to mention, the fact you guys have forgotten -- or explained away -- the beauty you once felt, shows me how out of touch you are with your own self. Say, did my explanation of how a premie loses sight of the value in their lives of a Master ring true for you at all?

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!