Subject: The air is thick with anticipation! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:28:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Ljubljana: Event with Raja Ji On Sunday 17 March 2002, about 150 people with Knowledge from Slovenia, Croatia and Italy gathered to listen to Raja Ji tell us about the possibility of Maharaji's Europe's events this summer. It's now 11 years since Maharaji came for the first time to Slovenia and its capital Ljubljana and held two unforgettable events. Since then many things have changed, Balkan wars have left some new states, yet that fervency to host Maharaji again has never been abandoned by those who had that privilege before. Raja Ji advised us to get as many aspirants as possible as that is the best invitation to bring Maharaji to any country. The anticipation is already in the air. Exactly how much effort and enthusiasm we are going to generate now only depends only on us...

Subject: big time mindfuck From: Ulf To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:17:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here is something from a satsang in Marbella, Spain, april 29, 1979. I was there , and i remember the `feeling ` There are about seventy - five, seventy - six applicants who have applied to be initiators. I was going thourgh these files. And one after another- and this is only from Europa- it`s such a sad story . Because there are these premies , living in the ashram , having a beautiful experience. All of a sudden the mind comes in, kicks them out, even for three days. YOu know what i look for in an application ? The section that i look for when i am looking at the application is where it says , `` Have you ever left the ashram since first moving in ? `` I almost feel like closing it when it says yes. I mean WHY ?? How many times , for how many agés, for how many centuries, are you going to let that mind dominate you. ? This obscene thing cant always keep on going. And Guru Maharaj. JI has given us everything to stop it. Stop it rigth now. He has givin us knowledge , he has given us opportunity, he has given us grace to do satsang , service , and meditation. And we have to all get togheter an do it. everyone of us , individually . Because who in this world ,who wants us ? who in this world wants us for keeps ?? Maybe when we are little our father says `` Oh i love you , i want you ` What is his ambition ? He wants to teach you. Its an investment,,,,he says ìts an investment. So that when i retire you shall be able to work and feed me and your mother`` A concept . WHo want us for keeps ? Nobody in this world want us really . nobody Our father doesnt want us , our mother doesnt want us , our brothers dont want us , out uncles dont want us , our aunt doesnt want us ,,,nobody want us in this world . Except guru maharaj.ji. Guru maharaj.ji `s the only one who says `` come , come now and you can stay forevever.

Subject: THIS is AWFUL!!!! From: Francesca :~) To: Ulf Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:59:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much Ulf. The reality check was refreshing. Those ashrams that Elan Vital used to say on its web page were, ahem, only there for refugees of the drug culture, so it was so easy to close them all in 1982 when there were no more drug fiends left in the world. St. Paddy chased the snakes from Ireland, and St. Rawat chased all the dope fiends from the US and the Europe. But for some reason, up until 1982, M chose virtually ALL his instructors from the ashram. Hmmm. Only dope fiends could get close to the Lard and spread his word, up until 1982. Or did Elvan Vital lie to us all? bests, --f

Subject: John/J-M/ On EPO? From: Joe -- thanks Ulf To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:28:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ulf, thanks for that. Like Francesca said, this is important, damning stuff. Is this on tape or in print? I hope this can go up on EPO. Thanks again, Ulf.

Subject: way back From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 07:44:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are there any posts from people who recieved K and practised before DLM organisation in the west started to influence premies' lives, i.e. around 70/71? how did it work back then?

Subject: Re: way back From: ex WPC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:39:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was introduced to the firm in 1971, thought it a bit tame, went back and got 'knowledge' in 1972. In 1973, got recruited as housemother to the wpc electronic guys, they who bugged the palace. Factions were forming, Glen was acting for god at Woodside Ave. Raja Ji for god in the WPC. The house in Reigate was aquired as a retreat from the strain of loving so many people!? There was a chain of command based loosely on a Hollywood movie called The Godfather. All premies were bongo and this meant that a quaisi militaristic regime was needed to keep the show on the road. This is where we all have to look at are own collusion in the the game. M had been part of a family business in India, and now the business was expanding in the west. An unworldy but astute boy of around 14 years old was being stage managed by a group of men in their mid to late twenties. Satsang ended at 9pm so premies could return home and meditate, and the honchos' could go trolling the nightlife of central London showing the boy god a good time. I don't have a precise calender of events but when an adult woman turned up and became an item with m, I don't recall any one voicing misgivings about the liason, only that Mata ji was pissed because she had an Indian girl lined up for him. Looking back nobody comes out of this with any honour. The couple wed, the mother fled, the business flourished. Then we grew up, and here was m ceo to a thriving business, no product few overheads, a capitalist succes story. I don’t know them well, and only shared their house for a short time..Ask yourselves a 15/16 year old boy has the world at his feet a bunch of grown men doing his bidding. I’ve known a lot of 15 year old boys to get quite carried away on their fantasies, the job of the adults is to guide and check their behaviour focusing their energies towards making a meaningfull contribution as adults. This task normally falls to the parents, ms father was dead, and his mother? Hey what an awkward old bint she was being. Ridiculed and tricked she went back to India and put together the business with her remaining loyal son. Ms loyal brother Raja ji continued to work and play with the brothers. So put yourself in their position baring in mind that by now the sixties are well and truly over and the only respectable 80s game is making money. No doubt the marriage in the cold light of day, like many relationships had no substance. They did however have 4 children whom they love and a thriving cash cow. How to keep the assets without losing all credibility is always difficult for those in the public eye. About the premies, is this the only thing you ever bought that turned out to be a rip off? You pay taxes, are you totally content about the contribution you make to the arming bombing and desecration of the planet your money goes towards? What I got from my involvement in the early 70s was a buzz and bond that comes from being actively involved in something I believed in. Working together to bring peace to the world. We all lost the plot. Since that time I have been involved in various social/political/environmental things usually by default. An injustice festering under my nose. Being human involves doing things, most of us put our time and energy and money into things of no real value. Maybe m succeeded in his mission by default, he sold us to ourselves, older and wiser now I’m sure we all think twice before buying that Rolex watch for a tenner from the bloke looking over his shoulder. Sorry this is a bit long, love and stuff to all.

Subject: Re: way back From: Sir Dave To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 19:57:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received K in the Spring of 1972 and after a while I did leave DLM and did my own thing for a while. I did meditate in that period when I had nothing to do with DLM and yes, meditation did have an effect then although I have to admit that I wasn't ''practising knowledge'' as is prescribed but simply doing meditation my own way, as and when I wanted to. These days I meditate sometimes - certainly not all the time but as and when I feel like it. At times, I do get the same effect from it as I got way back in 1972 at the time mentioned above. In fact, my own experience of doing my method of meditation which is very loosely based on the third technique although far removed from formal meditation (it's more like a relaxation technique) - my experience of this has continually shown me that Maha hasn't a clue as to what he's talking about.

Subject: Re: way back From: Mike Finch To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are there any posts from people who recieved K and practised before DLM organisation in the west started to influence premies' lives, i.e. around 70/71? how did it work back then? Yes, I got Knowledge on June 1 1970. Thanks Livia for drawing my attention to this post. The main difference that I remember is that there was no 'inner circle' then. By 'inner circle' I mean that group of premies who either have access to Maharaji personally or who are honchos in the organisation (or both), and thus feel and act vastly superior to the rank n file. This is a sore point with me; I have been both in the inner circle, and in the outer darkness, and I found that whole dynamic very painful. The despair of being cast into outer darkness (ie losing your honcho job or M withdrawing access to him personally), and the desperate attempt to climb back up the ladder into the inner circle, for which you will do anything, is humiliating, obscene, de-humanising, and plain manipulative. Of course, we did not have to buy into it, but that goes for all our involvement. So my memories of 1970, and when M was first in England in June/July 71, where that everything was very open. Anyone could gain access to Maharaji as long as they just came to the house he was living in. There was no organisation, and so no honchos. Whatever organisation there was - to pay bills or arrange M's events - was done by people who did not feel superior. There was no inner circle. As far as I remember, everyone was pleasant, respectful and supportive to each other. Of course, this may just be my nostalgia ! I think it changed gradually. When M returned to England in October 71, there was more of an organisation - more people being more together about organisational things, and arranging the first jumbo to India made people realise that if you were organising things M wanted done, you got more attention - but again, no 'inner circle' mentality that I remember. I think it really changed in 72. I would put Guru Puja in Montrose, Colorado (July 72) as the turning point. Bob Mishler, as the US honcho, up to then was friendly and accessible. He told me at the festival that M had talked to him about ramping things up and getting together a real organisation. Very quickly after that, honchos became honchos, and staring wearing suits and thinking they were privileged. I remember the first time I encountered the inner circle phenomenon, I felt quite sick. Actually it was meeting Bob again, who recognised me but ignored me - he was in his suit and I was sweeping some floor I think - but I instantly saw what the whole inner circle thing was about. Really, I should have left then - the impulse to do so was greater then that it would be for a long time to come - but of course I didn't. -- Mike

Subject: Yes, I remember From: DR To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:37:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For me it was in late 1972 when M was coming to UK. There was a fairly large event at Acton town hall. I was one of those 'privileged' speakers who sat at the front of the auditorium facing (yes facing!) the audience for the entire show. That was a centering (or highly discomforting experience) to say the least and one which I realised immediately created a distiction between 'us' and 'them'. Hey, that's life! I'm ashamed to say a part of me enjoyed it thoroughly. As a musician I was acustomed to being addicted to public attention and this was more of the same. When I spoke it was the usual nervous splutterings followed by a letting go to the flow and then that lovely warm fuzzy peace and nice words about knowledge etc, a great buzz. The applause was a treat and the after show questions from excited aspirants even better! After one such night, this really smooth looking guy sidles up to me and say's 'hey man, you know, if you, like got yourself a decent suit and, you know, you could..., you know.' That's how it went. I stood and nodded enthusiastically but later at home told everyone about it and we laughed at what a jerk he was etc. It was strange to see FBI like figures emerging at the events and I realised then that I would probably always stay as a minion. Security was important, obviously, but not the province of a spaced out hippie muso. Not sure how one managed to survive decades being surrounded by so much unbridled and seemingly endless ambition, showing off and manipulation, not to mention the lunatic SA gopies who would practically kill for a tenth row seat! I think we survived by laughing at them and even (at Kissemee) hating those arrogant bastards strutting around with their fucking walki talkies pretending to have a direct line to God or his Mahaship. When Amaroo became like that it was the end for many people's involvement in the organisation, I hated it. Yet still the show goes on and I for one, haven't a clue how. The deeply embedded internal microchip just says 'event = party time' and it's always been right to date. My only explanation is that there is something else going on at a much deeper, more primal level that we never can or will truly understand. My worldly excitement, peace and fulfilment comes from buying guitars now. Just bought an exquisite G+L 'Bluesboy' for a client in UK. It's a limited edition Telecaster made by Leo Fender (yea the one) and is as good as that style of guitar ever gets. An absolute stunner. The end buyer is over the top with excitement and I don't blame him! If anyone knows any rare guitar collectors...I have a handle on some absolutely magnificent instruments. They cost a fair bit, but they're also unique and irreplacable. Great investments and a joy to play in the meantime! cheers

Subject: DR-guitars (totally OT) From: PatrickW To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:53:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If anyone knows any rare guitar collectors...I have a handle on some absolutely magnificent instruments. They cost a fair bit, but they're also unique and irreplacable. Great investments and a joy to play in the meantime! DR- could you email me patrick@patrickwilson.com with a list or whatever.

Subject: Re: Yes, I remember From: AV To: DR Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 02:25:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'My only explanation is that there is something else going on at a much deeper, more primal level that we never can or will truly understand.' I guess that has been my belief/experience too, I received K before M was around much, back then I had some truly wonderful experiences away from external influence, some of which will carry me thru' life, in later years I experienced guilt and anxiety big-time, felt as tho' I somehow had to anhialate my mind 'so the individual self could merge into the ocean' etc. etc. I never took the heirarchy of suits and haircuts seriously, figured K must draw some kind of org round itself, and that for most people was socially acceptable image, everything has to look like something afterall!

Subject: I agree AV From: Ganjanand To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:24:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the experience of Knowledge is blissful as long as you don't allow yourself being drawn into this circus ...after all it is about learning something, thats why we went to a Master in the first place. But one should feel free to quit the whole ball game once one has understood the mechanisms involved, but real premies are not interested in that at all, they just want to adore their Guru Maharaj Ji and what's wrong with that? They keep the ball rolling and we can enjoy the show....

Subject: Nicely said, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:58:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I never took the heirarchy of suits and haircuts seriously, figured K must draw some kind of org round itself....'' Yes, the suits never bothered me too much either, not when I was away from satsang at the Palace of Peace and with my dope-smoking premie buds. The ''firm'' still gave me the creeps but, like you, I figured that God-in-bod needed a worldly organization, money, movers and shakers, cars, planes, mansions etc. All of it was weird in my book but understandable since this was the living lord not a dead one in the scriptures raising the dead. This avatar raised hard cash. But this bit is also important - as you said: ''....in later years I experienced guilt and anxiety big-time, felt as tho' I somehow had to anhialate my mind 'so the individual self could merge into the ocean' etc. etc.'' Show me an oldtime premie who did not experience this and I will show you someone who was not paying attention or is now lying through his teeth er sorry - resorting to revisionism and grandfathering. Now, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for a post from you with paragraphs. :C) Hey, at least I read your posts!

Subject: Show me an old time premie From: Ganjanand Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:30:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here's one ! I have never been into this guilt trip or felt I was unworthy or whatever...this Christian bullshit has never entered my intoxicated mind......chilum bam bambouleee

Subject: I'm curious From: Dear Mike To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 17:46:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How did Maharaji treat you in the early days? What was he like to be around?

Subject: I have some questions Mike From: PatrickW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:51:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the first time I encountered the inner circle phenomenon, I felt quite sick. Actually it was meeting Bob again, who recognised me but ignored me - he was in his suit and I was sweeping some floor I think - but I instantly saw what the whole inner circle thing was about. Really, I should have left then - the impulse to do so was greater then that it would be for a long time to come - but of course I didn't. Mike, are you critical of DLM 'honchos' or Maharaji personally for the fact that this hierarchy of priviledged 'inner circle' types came into being and thrived? Do you think Maharaji cultivated this inner circle for some particular reason or was it just human nature to form one? Did he encourage some sort of sick 'court' dynamic do you think? As you know premies will all say that Maharaji himself has been always keen to cut out the organisation and to talk directly to 'his premies'. I am not quite sure what you think what you have described tells us about M if anything. Obviously it tells us that most premies (like yourself) easily fell into the trap of wanting to be a part of a 'special' inner circle and that those dynamics led to pain for those who became excluded. I can't help thinking that premies will just be gloating over your words - 'Oh yes, Mike -how typical - he's just moaning because he couldn't be in a powerful position any more - it's just sour grapes etc. He should have been more humble' How would you answer this accusation?

Subject: Playing a Hindu god in a modern Camelot From: Lesley To: PatrickW Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 15:58:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IMO, it was His Excrescence, Mr 'Krishna' Rawat who set up his court. The last time I listened to him speaking, April 2000, he was coyly informing us that he had reversed the totem pole, putting the community premies at the top and the instructors at the bottom...plays a lot of games, doesn't he.

Subject: Thanks for this, Mike From: Francesca To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:29:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I came along in 1973 in the US and the org and inner circle were definitely entrenched. Many westerners went to India in the late 60s and early 70s looking for spiritual enlightenment or drugs, or a combination of both. It seems like more than a few of the early 70's honchos got their organizational experience by dealing drugs. Maharaji was the stuff everyone wanted, and they (the dealers) had access to it. There was a smugness of the 'haves' and the 'have nots,' sometimes kind condescention. Things have changed from that phase too. The premies got experience in either Maharaji's org or in 'real world' jobs instead of relying on the skills they learned as hippies. (LOLs) But I did hear stories back then of the days you spoke of, when things were looser and Maharaji was way more accessible. --f

Subject: Re: Thanks for this, Mike From: PatD To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 16:33:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I 1st went to Golden Manor London to check it out in mid Jan.72,having heard about K in late 71, & got it in Mar.72 during a week's holiday from work,as you had to be able to say you'd listened to satsang for a consecutive period. M was in an adjacent room to the session & we were all told to go in afterwards to make our obeiances,which I didn't do. Maybe there were just too many people around for him to handle by then. I never went to the Montrose bash,but later that year in India he was certainly inaccessable to the likes of me. It's interesting the social milieu you mention....yeah lots of amateur dope dealers,& some not so amateur,but wideboys though they were,nothing like the professional criminals who dominate the trade now. Not too many people have come forward to explain the nuts & bolts of the early days(not surprisingly)....like who set up the entity WB.Stores that most of the donations received by DLM(UK) went to for 'services'. I met a casualty from the early days(inner circle or before?)years later through mutual friends(non-premies). Guy called Robert,I don't know his surname & wouldn't divulge it if I did. He carried M's money around the world in briefcases,walked it through customs,& ended up stabbing himself in the neck several years later because the birds were giving him satsang.(he lived) He got excluded at some point back then & couldn't handle it. ps : anyone notice that message below from Moll of Mole about Amaroo being owned by a company called Myrine registered in Jersey.

Subject: Re: Thanks for this, Mike From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Mike, I also enjoyed your reminiscences and hope for more but don't expect them. But you know we're all terribly curious. Maybe you could practice on us with your anecdotes and keep notes for a book. PatD said: ''....lots of amateur dope dealers,& some not so amateur,but wideboys though they were,nothing like the professional criminals who dominate the trade now....'' We call them ''white-collar crimninals'' in the States, PatD. In other words criminals with lawyers - which the oldtime dope-smugglers who bankrolled Rawat's western venture did not have - yet. You ps'ed: ''...anyone notice that message below from Moll of Mole about Amaroo being owned by a company called Myrine registered in Jersey?'' Yes. The sleuths are onto it as we speak. :C)

Subject: You need to talk to Mike Finch [nt] From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:07:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: don't give god a face From: Konni To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:42:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Screw the god concept (thanks Lesley) and some people have tried and still do, as if god were a being. Depending on which slant you follow either the partriarchal view of history/evolution or the femina view or even believing the whole bun fight was contrived can moot the idea that god might be hardwired into the system. Try not saying god and he as if they were somehow linked, then maybe such notions of 'filial loyalties' or good or bad feelings don't take on historical or evolutionary significance. Words, meanings...hmmm. Spiritual for me is akin to creativity in that it is a sense of ourselves that inspires and motivates but I just don't buy that we need religious experience for survival. It was a con. A lie. We stopped evolving a long time ago. Loyalty is an interesting topic all by itself. Why would I have a need to ask loyalty of my children? (and to redeem myself from being too OT - am I?, I'll add..) Why does M. require secrecy and loyalty - he must have many doubts. Perhaps our longings, and feelings are just ways of making sense of our being. Anyone's reality is what they have created it to be. Setting aside any argument that a person creates their origin of birth, we use whatever is at hand to create meaning and identity to our existence as we travel the path from point a=origin to z=current reality. Except for when I pray to win the lottery, I just don't see a need anymore for a god or a realisation other than of my own. As for religious experience the only one I might need is a FatBoySlim epitaph.

Subject: I have seen a great wonder.. From: Ganjanand To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 23:38:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: while traveling thru the vast expanse of the cyberworld also called internet which is in fact the hell realm created by man himself. I can now see with my very eyes how the glories of our Supreme Lord Shri Guru Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe are being spread in the pits of hell also by you devoted people. Truly great is your Service that you do to mankind and the word has been fulfilled that our beloved brother Gurucharnanand Ji once said: if our Guru Maharaj Ji sends us to hell , we should gladly go there because He will transform hell into heaven for us. And that is exactly what s happening! the poor lost souls wandering thru the hell realms of the internet will by His Grace come to this site and learn about the wondrous deeds and the Divine exploits of our Supreme Lord Shri Guru Maharaji and thus be anxious to get toone of His festivities to be in the Holy Presence of the Lord of the Universe and eventually get initiated into His Divine Knowledge. I am now absolutely positive that you good people will never leave the shelter of our Lord and will ALWAYS remain and His Truly Holy Lotusfeet.Oh how blessed are you! By His boundless Grace and Compassion Our Lord has found a way to accomplish His Divine Mission also in the realms of Hell and you are His blessed tools. Oh how lucky you are, my beloved brothers and sisters! BOLie Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Prem Rawat Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Gerry Lyng Ki Jai! BOLie Shri Ganjanand Ki Jai! BOL BOL BOL (there is a secret in this world that only the true devotee realizes!) Greetings from the non-dual state, yours truly in His Service your brother Ganjanand Ji...don't bogart this......

Subject: Bhole shri, Ganjanand Ji!!! From: Mahatma Coat To: Ganjanand Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:21:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My dear brother Ganjanand Ji, Finally, after swimming through this shark infested infinite ocean of shark filled maya, someone has the vedas to come here and speak the truth. I'm not sure if I ever met you but anyone with ganja and a Ji in his name must be very holy premie. You are so wise in saying there is a secret in this world that only the true devotee realizes! Surely you have realized this most Holy of all Knowledges and know that you are one of few who can go Home with the Master. It is so totally obvious to this old soul that you never, ever doubt the purity of the Master. That's the only way you can stay with Him, yes? Very wise, no doubt. Ha, ha! By His Grace, this old Mahatma Ji will maybe soon be gifted the rupees from premies for flight to Australia and I will once again be close to Balyogeshwar, the Born Lord of the Yogis. Ganjanand Ji, perhaps at Amaroo we can share chai and have blissful satsang. And if we pray to Sant Ji, we may be blessed to again sing Arti and kiss His Lotus Feet. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Leaving Your Lotus Feet, where would I goooooooooooooo? Eternally dust beneath His Guccis, Mahatma Coat

Subject: ''someone has the vedas'' - LOL![nt] From: Bai Ghosh Ji - that is wonderful To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:15:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: h

Subject: good idea mahatma ji.. From: Ganjanand Ji To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:51:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..and maybe we could also share the money that devoted premies might- by His Grace-donate to you to make it to Tupac Amaroo....best regards

Subject: That was really wonderful... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Ganjanand Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... I really do agree with the sentiments expressed, it's the nicest thing I've read here in a while. Bravo. However, the language used really is a tad unsyncronized. Actually, quite a bit more than just a "tad". A real blast from the past, but you see, the past isn't like that anymore, The Master has improved it, and now wants us to be syncronized with the improved version. For instance, we are the students, and He is The Teacher. It's much less confusing to aspirants and nosey reporters that way. Have you ever considered attending some of the two or three day seminars that The Master has been recommending, to teach us how to talk about Him so that we are all syncronized and saying the same thing at the same time, and in the same way? They only cost several hundred dollars, and not only will you learn how to speak about Maharaji correctly, you'll learn how to apologize to Him, too! It's important to help Maharaji in His work, in the way He wants us to. The seminars help us to do that, I highly recommend them! :) Yours in That Feeling, Andrea Eriksonn, ''A cult? Ewww, Yucky! I'd NEVER join one of THOSE.''

Subject: ..is that those seminars From: Ganjanand Ji To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:38:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: are only for the unenlightened westerners that Prempal has to deal with. Old hats like me prefer to not get involved with all that prachar business that Prem has pledged to promote. I rather sit back,relax and enjoy that beautiful gift that Lord Shiva has granted us...

Subject: my humble opinion.. From: Ganjanand Ji To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 03:58:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'the past isn't like that anymore' From: JHB To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant line, Andrea (any relation to Sven Goran?). Did you make that up or quote it from somewhere? If you made it up, you're wasting your talents! John

Subject: The Best Explanation So Far (IMO) From: Pullaver To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:47:32 (EST) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: The attached paper Traumatic Abuse in Cults: An Exploration of an Unfamiliar Social Problem by Daniel Shaw, is a must-read for all who wish to gain insight into the psychology of the master/student relationship; the master apologist (R2 et al); the manipulations of the master; etc. Here's a teaser excerpt: What Is a Cult, and Why Do People Get Involved in Them? Cult experts estimate that there are about 5,000 cultic groups in the United States today and that about 10 to 20 million people have at some point in recent years been in one or more of such groups (Langone, 1993). The Cult Awareness Network reports that it receives about 18,000 inquiries a year (Tobias and Lalich, 1994). Michael Langone (1993), a psychologist who has worked with approximately 3,000 families of cult members, defines a cult as: a group or movement that, to a significant degree: exhibits great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing; uses a thought-reform program to persuade, control, and socialize members (i.e., to integrate them into the group's unique pattern of relationships, beliefs, values, and practices); systematically induces states of psychological dependency in members; exploits members to advance the leadership's goals; and causes psychological harm to members, their families, and the community. I would add to this definition that a religious cult is led by a person who claims to have reached human perfection or unity with the divine, and who claims therefore to be exempt from social or moral limitations or restrictions. Within this autocracy, the leader is not held to normative societal standards of conduct and is not subject to any system of checks and balances. Behavior that would in any other context be considered amoral, if not psychopathic, is idealized by devotees as indicative of the leader's transcendent perfection and enlightenment. Seduction The questions most often asked of former cult members, usually with incredulity, are 'How did you get into something like this? And why did you stay so long?' The unspoken subtext seems to be, 'How could someone like you end up in something like this? There must have been something wrong with you.' Certainly most former cult members were not seeking to be controlled, made dependent, exploited, or psychologically harmed when they first committed themselves to membership. One reason cults are so successful is that they have mastered the art of seduction, using techniques of undue influence (Cialdini, 1984). As Hochman (1990) notes, cults, by employing miracle, mystery, and authority, 'promise salvation. Instead of boredom -- noble and sweeping goals. Instead of existential anxiety -- structure and certainty. Instead of alienation -- community. Instead of impotence -- solidarity directed by all-knowing leaders' (p. 179). Cults prey upon idealistic seekers, offering answers to social problems and promising to promote bona fide social change. Recruiting addresses the anxieties and loneliness of people experiencing personal problems, transition or crisis, by holding out the promise of transformative healing within the framework of a caring and understanding community (Tobias et al.). Cult recruiting often takes place in sophisticated settings, in the form of seminars featuring persuasive, well-credentialed speakers, such as successful professionals, respected academics or popular artists, writers and entertainers. Cults target members from middle-class backgrounds, often directly from college campuses, and the majority of members are of above average intelligence (Hassan, 1990; Kliger, 1994; Tobias et al., 1994). In recruiting programs, speakers and members present various kinds of disinformation about cult leaders, including concealing their existence altogether. Otherwise, the leader may be represented as a humble, wise and loving teacher, when in reality he or she is a despot in possession of a substantial fortune, generated from member donations and (often illegal) business activities. The apparent leader may be only a figurehead, while the identity of the actual leader is concealed. False claims of ancient lineages may be made, or the leader is falsely said to be revered and renowned in his or her own country. Cult leaders rewrite and falsify their own biographies. Recruiting programs do not, for instance, inform participants about leaders of the group having criminal records, or a group's history of sexual abuse of members, or the group's involvement with illegal activities. Seduction in cult recruitment always involves strict control and falsification of information Thought Reform, or Mind Control Thought reform, or mind control, is another important component in understanding why cults are so prevalent in our society. The psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton (1987) studied the methods used by the Chinese Communists during the Korean War to turn war prisoners into willing accomplices, and called these methods thought reform (see also Hinkle and Wolff, 1976; Schein, 1956; Singer, 1979). Thought reform (also known as mind control) is the foundation on which cults are built. Lifton identified 8 phenomena that were present in the systems of 'ideological totalism' that he studied, all of which can be found in cults: 1. Milieu control - control of communication within an environment. Maintained primarily by increasingly isolating members from non-members, this sets up what Lifton calls 'personal closure.' One is constantly receiving reinforcement to suppress personal doubts and struggles about what is true or real; 2. Mystical manipulation, or planned spontaneity - a systematic process, covertly planned and managed by the group leader, whereby others come to invest him with omniscience, omnipotence, or divine authority. This gives rise to the embrace of an 'ends justify the means' philosophy, since the behavior and directives ofthe leader are always and only interpreted as having a divine origin and purpose; 3. Demand for purity - the call for a radical separation of pure and impure, of good and evil, within an environment and within oneself. This creates a world of guilt and shame in which devotees become obsessively preoccupied with hope of reward and fear of punishment; 4. Cult of confession - linked to the demand for purity. Required confession sessions, ostensibly for the purpose of purification and spiritual evolution, manipulate the guilt and shame mechanisms of followers, expose them totally to the group, and deepen their sense of being owned by the group; 5. Sacred science - a set of dogmatic principles which claim to be a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology. These principles must never be questioned, and all experience must be filtered through them; 6. Loading the language - reduction and distortion of complex concepts, thoughts, and feelings to simplistic clich‚s and slogans, which are used to still and limit mental processes of judgment and critical thinking; 7. Doctrine over person - one is made to feel that doubts of the doctrine are a reflection of one's own inadequacies, defects, or sins. The dogma is truth, and one's subjective experience must be aligned with the dogma. To do otherwise is to risk exclusion from the group. Since the doctrine is created to serve the purposes of the sociopathic leader, followers must split off or dissociate parts of themselves, and jettison their own values, to justify actions or tenets of the leader which would otherwise be intolerable to them. 8. Dispensing of existence - in the totalist vision of truth, one who disobeys, or deviates from the dogma, is false, deluded, or evil, and therefore instantly dispensable. The leaders are the judge of who is deviant, and can change their criteria at whim. Cults use the fear of banishment and shunning to control and contain members. To fear rejection by one's absolute ideal is tantamount to the profound dread of annihilation. (See also Singer and Ofshe, 1990; Tobias et al. For other theories of social control relevant to cults, see Festinger, 1964; Gramsci, 1973; Zimbardo, 1988.) Traumatic Cult Abuse hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm

Subject: It Doesn't Hoit From: Pullaver To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 00:46:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to read the remarkably similar journeys of other former cultists who believed that they too had found the Perfect Master of the Age (only to awaken to their folly) . . . The Muck on Muktananda The Maya of Gurumayi Swami Shyam May be a Sham but he Ain't Shy Siddha Sid on Dis 3H0 or HOHOHO 108 Names of God Sexy Baba Taking it on the Chin with Sri Chinmoy Dark Side of the Moon

Subject: Thanks Pullaver - o boy, more reading From: Crispy To: Pullaver Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:52:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a great link, thanks. I've only read half of it so far, so I immediately saved it and look forward to reading the rest later, - 'cuz I've got an obsessive appetite these days :p for these kinds of insights! PS: let me know what you think of the book I loaned you as well ? Cheers, 'Crispy'

Subject: Could you please address this, Donner? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:34:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, In the thread below about Flethcer and Fakiranand, there's this big discrepancy between Nick's report: As I have posted here a few times before, I can vouch for certain that Fakiranand spent a few months in Switzerland (and maybe a few days in Austria) in the months leading up to the Millenium Festival (i.e. after the brutal attack). I was his driver and can clearly pinpoint the timing of his touring in Europe. Again, as I have stated here, the Pat Halley incident was in no way reported to the premies who were tending after Fakiranand. Maharaji may have been angry, but he clearly was not concerned about my and others' well-being at the hands of a possible psychopath (and I am not being dramatic here). and your own: also, fakiranand was sent to india, not europe. i do not remember that fakianand ever left india after that. not completely sure however. but he went from detroit to chicago by car...i was in that car...and ticketed to india via london. How likely is it to you, given what Nick says, that Fakiranand re-routed once he got to London? Would you have necessarily known? And who could have orchestrated that change without your knowledge? Where would Maharaji fit into any of this? How about the rest of his not-yet-estranged family? Also, Mike, did you have any contact with Richard Fletcher, the other assailant? Where did he go? How? Why? Did anyone, as far as you know, ever talk with these guys and get their version? Mike, as you know, many of us are extremely curious about this stuff and, at least at this point, you are the singularly best-informed witness by a long shot. No one even comes close to sharing your vantage point. For example, you talk about your speculation that Raja Ji might have incited the attack. We former rank-and-file premies might also have guessed that just based on his WPC bullshit and all that but I bet that if you're guessing that you've got more, maybe much more, to rely on. Maybe you saw things, heard things, details that, in context, are extremely significant that the rest of us just don't know. Please, Mike, don't just leave us with your conclusions but rather 'take us there', if you can. Likewise, you mention, almost in passing that: rajaswar was also in on the meetings with two other mahatmas to plan the attack...which i learned later To me, though, that's nothing less than a bombshell. Again, what exactly are you talking about? I know it's been a long time but it's just going to get longer. :) You're the man, Mike. Until Maharaji, or maybe Raja Ji or Fakiranand himself, publishes his candid memoires, you're the best we got. Please, if you could fill us in with as much detail as possible, I know many will be grateful. Thanks Jim

Subject: Fakiranand's schedule in Europe? From: Jean-Michel To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:37:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do have piles of magazines of that time, and I've planned to do some research this week to find his schedule in Europe then. Mahatamas schedules were publicised at that time, and I'm sure I'll find it somewhere. It should be end 73, beginning of 1974.

Subject: Many of us are extremely curious? From: The Inner Circle To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:09:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'many of us are extremely curious -many will be grateful' How many of you are up there in that busy head of yours Jim? Fo God's sake grow up, be honest and say ' I, JIM, WOULD BE GRATEFUL' Why do you always subtley boast about representing this huge and grateful crowd? To swell the power and significance of your words? No-one else gives a fuck! WHY do you think you're the only one who asks these inane questions of the goofballs who sulked around M a few decades back? Sheesh! Your pining is pathetic and embarrassing man...look at it. 'Please, Mike, don't just leave us with your conclusions but rather 'take us there', if you can....Please, Mike, take us there, don't just leave us... Please Mike, please, take us there!' Sorry....but this is just the best.... the very best jimbogrovel so far!! Don't you know Jim... ONLY SATGURU CAN TAKE YOU THERE!! Seriously though Jim, are we witnessing the sad and pathetic end to an illustrious forum career? We didn't think 'Laughing Stock' was what you had in mind for your epitaph.

Subject: *BEST of FORUM* [nt] From: LOL To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 16:02:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh please Mike. you're the man :) and I'm not :(

Subject: A true Classic! From: Circle admirer To: LOL Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:25:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, that's a real beauty. Whoever you are, 'Inner Circle', please keep posting. Whether Jim does or not, you CERTAINLY speak for a very large number of lurkers and those who can't write what we have observed in such a clear way. Keep it up!

Subject: you lie: I give a faak From: Francesca :~) To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:44:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More people than Jim care about this issue. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. I wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' However, whether Maharaji would not only sneak the lunatic Fakirinand out of the USA but also foist him on other unsuspecting premies with no warning, when he was obviously a loose cannon indeed, is an important issue. This seems to be a part of a pattern of irresponsible behavior for one who claims to have so much authority and necessity in people's lives. Have you heard about the scandals going on in the Roman Catholic Church for example -- I mean, I hope 'the inner circle' reads the news? It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. In fact, going back and showing a pattern of insensitivity for the safety of premies is a viable point indeed. You'd rather that people grovel in confusion with no facts, I suppose, just something in the back of their minds saying, 'do I really have to listen to the fatGuru? Does he really care about his fellow human beings.' Yes, he is an ordinary human being, and accoutable for his actions, just like all the rest of us.

Subject: Oh really, Fran? What point is that? From: Jim To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 17:52:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More people than Jim care about this issue. It doesn't matter how long ago it happened. I wouldn't have necessarily asked for the information in the way Jim did, and it's a point well taken that he could have spoken for himself rather than said 'we.' What kind of bullshit, unnecessary dig is that? I'm just stating the obvious to Mike and you know it. Just like you're perfectly ready, willing and able to say that more people care about this than me, that's what I was saying too. Thanks for the criticism anyway. Was that fun for you?

Subject: answer the question From: hey bozo :p To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:42:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: why do you have a problem asking the hard questions? don't want to hear the truth? attack the insignificant point as a red herring to the criticism, and force someone to argue over little detail making them look petty it's getting old, Jim

Subject: Hey let's discuss JIM From: Dermot To: hey bozo :p Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:08:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: let's forget about attempted murder and it's relation to fanatical devotion, a gurus response etc......those are trifling little matters.... who gives a FUCK?? ....and they happened SOOOOO long ago, too. Now JIM ....well that's IMPORTANT......so I agree, let's sidestep Fakiranand and shift focus a bit huh? Agreed?

Subject: Re: Hey let's discuss JIM From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 04:23:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot you're wising up to the trolls' game. :C) I hope we all do soon.

Subject: Quit fighting with everyone Jim From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No it was not fun. Get a grip. Even when I basically agree with you you've got to fight. Sheesh. Don't you have better things to do than nitpick people to death? That's the last time I'll bother backing you up. Life's too short. And who the heck is the Mike you are talking about? --f

Subject: Re: Quit fighting with everyone Jim From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:36:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No it was not fun. Get a grip. Even when I basically agree with you you've got to fight. Sheesh. Don't you have better things to do than nitpick people to death? That's the last time I'll bother backing you up. Life's too short. And who the heck is the Mike you are talking about? --f --- Fran, You took an unfair swipe at me by agreeing with that anoymous cult member that I shouldn't have spoken for others and I was responding to it. In fact, it was rather funny to see you do the exact same thing I did -- speak 'for' the 'more people than [me]' I mean, how would you know, right? Anyway, if that's what you call 'back up', don't do me any favours.

Subject: who's Mike? [nt] From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:32:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, I forgot. It's Donner. [nt] From: Francesca To: Francesca Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:39:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'd DEFINITELY like to find out From: Dermot To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:10:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as much as possible about the incident. To me , it doesn't matter if it happened yesterday or thirty years ago. I conveniently dislodged it from my conscious attention ( the flimsy amount I knew about it)because it didn't gel with my staus as a follower of Prem Pal. Now I'd like some first hand accounts of as many people as possible. Why? Well, surely you know why. It's not about some ' Mahatma/saint' saying' this is the true path not the religions in the world' or ' don't eat meat' or ' follow the path of devotion and don't listen to your mind'....yeah that stuff is bullshit but it's hardly momentous.....however when some poor sod was nearly bludgeoned to death in the name of devotion.....well that's a whole different ball game. Then Maharajis whole response (and his other mahatmas and brother) DOES matter. If you can't see why that should matter then ....well, as I say, I shelved it too, so I know where you're coming from BUT....it ain't the right place. Like so many things it's been covered up and conveniently forgotten......some things though are too important for that. From that one brutal incident and the resulting response, a lot can be learned.

Subject: Re: I'd DEFINITELY like to find out From: Livia To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:57:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can add me to the list. i'd definitely like to know. I remember the whole thing when it happened - think I was in the USA at the time, and to my shame I relegated the incident to the part of my premie brain labelled at that time 'do not examine'. Yes, it was covered up and conveniently forgotten, but why should any of us not want to know, 30 years on, what really happened? With love, Livia

Subject: Afraid to find out, Roupell? From: Jim To: The Inner Circle Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Donner, like other PAMs, can fill in the picture that you're afraid to look at. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that many of us indeed want to know just how Maharaji really did act during this suspicious scandal. People are still interested in the Nixon white house tapes. Why? Because he was an important figure who lead a fascinatingly sleazy and duplicitous life. The tapes and first hand accounts from various PANs do indeed 'take us there'. Well, Maharaji was a very important person in our lives. He, too, lead a fascinatingly sleazy and duplicitous life. Figure it out.

Subject: How many times do you have to be told? From: Come on Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 00:51:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that IP 144.134.223.80 WNPP-p-144-134-223-80.prem.tmns.net.au Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC/ doth not a Roupell make! Sure he may be one of the sharpest knives in the drawer, but you are affording the guy demigod status. Why? Do you think we are all computer ignoramuses? There is no way, short of an intimate knowledge of the Hacker's Black Book, that you can isolate a single person from the information above. No, don't try and pretend that it's HIS computer (that someone else may or may not be using), I'll repeat - there is NO way you can correctly assertain that the above code refers to any given computer. If you keep brandishing his name all over this denizon of hate and loathing he may well do something about it. That's my information at this point. Remember, there are many pwk's as sharp, clear, witty and having a similarly good time in their lives as R is. It's annoying to see so much freedom and joy manifested I know. But there it is. Anyway - care to explain to us how PAMS can take us anywhere but down the dim dark corridors of their own highly subjective and biased memory lanes? Please, we're itching to know...

Subject: Well, while you're being picayune... From: E.B. White To: Come on Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 02:38:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: allow me to point out that 'If you keep brandishing his name all over this denizon (sic) of hate and loathing...' a denizen is a person not a place. I guess you're a duller knife than Roupell.

Subject: Re: Well, while you're being picayune... From: Strunk To: E.B. White Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:02:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually DR is only semi-literate too. This troll is obviously either too thick to understand Jim's sense of humor or is deliberately misunderstanding it for the purpose of debasing and insulting him. And I speak from experience of having my words either sincerely misunderstood because of a lack of subtilty on the reader's part or deliberately misunderstood for malicious reasons. PatC

Subject: 'denizen of hate and loathing' From: Dermot To: Come on Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: come off it .....

Subject: TAM back online (for a while) From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:47:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've no doubt that Maha & Co will get this shut down yet again so it's on a throw-away site that's dispensable. Read it now while it's online. (see above link) The Truth About Maharaji realmaharaji.mybravenet.com/Truth/truth.htm

Subject: Thanks Dave..... From: PatD To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:51:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you do have a fine collector's eye for a bloodstained carpet. That site was the one which really blew me away when I got my 1st internet connection less than 2yrs ago, began to revisit my forgotten younger self,& started to wonder why I had been such a fool for so long. Highly reccommended to all lurking premies.

Subject: CD Rom of site also available From: Sir Dave To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:28:52 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: Thanks PatD. If you or anyone wants a CD Rom (PC not Mac) with the whole site on, just email me a snailmail address where I can send it to and I'll get it off to you, pronto! It doesn't matter where you are in the world, I'll post it to you by the quickest and most secure method possible which will probably be by ''Swiftair'' to people in continents outside Europe. Of course, I won't divulge to anyone, the snailmail address you give to me and it goes without saying, your email address and name will be confidential. My email address is above on this post.

Subject: Scientology critics taken off the web From: Francesca To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:15:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Google restores web page critical of scientology. There's also related articles in the sidebar. Yahoo news Fri Mar 22, 1:30 AM ET By Elinor Mills Abreu SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Google (news - external web site) Inc. restored a Web site critical of the Church of Scientology on its Internet search engine on Thursday while free speech advocates slammed the company for removing the site in the first place. Google said the company had only removed certain pages from the site because of a copyright dispute. 'Certain pages of the Xenu.net Web site were removed from our search engine earlier this week in response to a copyright infringement notification under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (news - web sites) (DMCA),' Google spokesman David Krane said in an e-mail. The home page for Xenu.net was 'inadvertently removed' along with a long, two-page list of associated Web pages on Wednesday but was put back on Thursday, said Google spokeswoman Cindy McCaffrey. Neither she nor Krane were available for further comment. On Thursday evening, the Web site was listed fourth under Google search results for 'Scientology' and 8th under 'Church of Scientology.' A lawyer representing the Church of Scientology accused Xenu.net of 'wholesale, verbatim copyright infringement' by allegedly reprinting large amounts of material on the site. 'We don't abuse this act,' the lawyer, Helena Kobrin of the Los Angeles firm of Moxin & Kobrin said of the DMCA. 'We go very strictly by what the copyright laws are.' Copyright law allows people to use pieces of copyrighted material for personal, education and other purposes under a so-called 'fair use' provision. However, Kobrin said the Web site used more than was allowed under fair use. 'We will do whatever we can to protect these copyrights,' she said. 'The real story here is my clients are constantly the targets of some really horrendous stuff on the Internet.' The Church of Scientology, whose members include actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta, has mounted challenges to Web sites and organizations that are critical of it in the past. STIFLING CRITICISM Robin Gross, staff attorney for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the Church of Scientology was trying to use copyright law to stifle criticism. 'A lot of the cases using copyright to quell critics are Church of Scientology cases,' she said. The DMCA protects companies that host or link to Web sites from being held liable if they notify allegedly offending Web sites that there is a complaint about them and give them a chance to respond, Gross said. Google did not have to remove Xenu.net immediately, as the company claimed it did in a letter to Andreas Heldal-Lund, the Norwegian Web master of the site, attorney Gross said. 'Had we not removed these URLs (uniform resource locators, or network address of Web pages), we would be subject to a claim for copyright infringement, regardless of its merit,' Google said in its letter. Don Marti, an activist who protested the arrest of a Russian programmer under the DMCA last year, said he and other activists met with Google on Thursday to discuss the situation. 'Google invited us right in,' said Marti, whose ad hoc group is called 'Mountain View, California, Xenu Independent Study Group.' Google had the Web site back up before the group arrived at its Mountain View offices on Thursday afternoon, he said. 'We're discussing Google's DMCA policy and trying to keep this from happening again,' Marti said. 'Google should be a fair and accurate representation of what's on the Internet.' Scientiology, the BIGFOOT story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020322/wr_nm/tech_google_dc

Subject: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Roger eDrek To: Francesca Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 21:18:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was Marianne who directed me to the EFF when Maharaji and his lawyers (Bob Jacobs) illegally used the DMCA to order my ISP to shutdown the House of Maharaji Drek in the fall of 2000. I jumped 4 feet into the air when I received notice from my ISP that Maharaji and Company had backed down and the House of Drek was still alive. My ISP had put it into quarantine. I did have to remove some of the links to allegedly acquired internal documents. The bad part of it all is that Maharaji and Company know exactly who I am and that I live in Seattle, Washington and work at Microsoft. Oh, well. But, having Freedom of speech is vital and important to all segments of society. It was very interesting taking part in a small personal battle for that right and I'm glad that I did. My ISP, a small fish, really didn't want to have any controversy at all and they wanted to just boot me off. I had to threaten to sue them as well as Maharaji. There were a lot of lawyers involved, Robin Gross and Marianne for me, the ISP lawyers, and Maharaji and his.

Subject: Re: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Marianne To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:13:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: drek: I don't think it was an accident Robin Gross ended up involved in the Scientology webfight. Sounds like she's developing an anti cult subspecialty in her practice at EFF. Marianne

Subject: you are probably correct, Marianne From: Roger eDrek To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:48:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, Robin is the person for these issues.

Subject: Re: Robin Gross of the EFF helped House of Drek From: Francesca To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 13:46:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is great that Robin Gross is developing this speciality. I think she also helped some people who spoke out on a bulletin board in a case about a year ago. As I recall, the lawsuit was dropped once she and EFF became involved. Thanks for the story Drek and Marianne, and thanks for standing up to the Evil Empire. And in this case, I don't mean Microsoft -- LOLs! --f

Subject: Re: Scientology's tactics (another source) From: janet To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 23:31:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just about to start a new thred when I saw that you had already put this up, Fran, so I am posting my findings under yours. I wa sjust reading this at slashdot. when you click thru to the article, take the time to read the accompanying links. they are conveniently listed in the right side menu so you can read each one in turn. Slashdot's coverage of this slashdot.org/yro/02/03/21/0453200.shtml?tid=99

Subject: I love a story with a happy ending... [nt] From: gerry To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:44:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thank you, Maharaji! From: Gregg To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:52:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharajism does work, in a sense, and here is why it works, in a word: Gratitude. Feeling grateful is one of the surest keys to happiness. If you can feel grateful for EVERYTHING...wow. And this is what religion offers: a person/entity to whom you can direct your gratitude. In this particular religion, there is a particular person, a real live person to whom you can say 'Thank you, for this gift of life.' Meditation is part of it, of course, but gratitude to the master becomes a basket where you can throw all the confusing bits, and the master becomes, as in the song Arti, a father, a mother, a brother and a friend. Thus providing an omnipresent emotional secuity blanket. So what could be wrong with this path of devotion? Obviously, being an ex-premie, I must have a beef with this whole thing. (BTW, not having been in the cult for a while...are PWK's still vegetarians?) One strain of thought among exes is that the whole guru system is corrupt and wrongheaded. (See the book 'The Guru Papers.') I think a guru can communicate/transmit valuable info,although most of them, even the 'authentic' ones, seem to end up corrupted by the power they assume over their follower's lives. And if a guru helps you out, the natural gratitude you feel can help you in the process of developing an unproblematic orientation toward your life and the world. The problem with unlimited devotion to Maharaji is that the reality of who he is does not enter into the formula at all. As premies, we attributed omniscience to him which he most definitely does not have. Our devotion was untethered to reality. If you believe all religion/spiritual work is fantasy, fine. But for those of us who meditate, ex-premies and PWK's, it should be crucial that whatever beliefs we have are not held out of emotional needs irrespective of real-life facts. Spiritual work is supposed to help us remove emotional and cultural blinders and see life as it is. It was my experience as a premie that I was simply entering a different 'trance state,' a 'spiritual' one, to be sure, but not a state of increased awareness, the ostensible goal of the path of Knowledge. It's called Knowledge, but that is a terrible misnomer. You don't learn anything about 'ultimate reality' or the 'non-dual state' or 'God' at all. All you learn (and boy, do you learn it well!) is a set of beliefs about this Divine Master named Maharaji and your relationship to him. It is a comfortable cocoon, but that is all it is. A real Master would challenge you, not lull you into trance. A real Master would care about you more than he cared about his material possessions. And a real Master would not call himself a Master, in my opinion. I'm going to New Mexico for a week...happy spring to y'all!

Subject: Gratitude to God in a Bod From: PatC To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:04:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aldous Huxley said that the highest happiness - heaven - was gratitude. I agree. This world is awesome. But there's no need for god in a bod. It's an easy way out for peasants whose lives are bleak.

Subject: Re: Thank you, Maharaji! From: Disculta To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:40:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, indeed, this is a point that has been made before, but is crucial I think. The 'Knowledge' is a particular set of yogic techniques that produce a particular kind of phenomenal experience (light, etc.) - or don't work at all. It is all about creating or accessing an energetic phenomenon (light, music, Snot - which isn't snot in my experience sorry Anth) and using them as portals for a kind of trance which one is taught to label as spiritual experience. Another view of spiritual experience would say that this is merely the experiencing of phenomena, similar to any other phenomena, and while anything can work as a point of focus to help relax the mind (prior to driving you crazy with boredom after a few weeks, months or years), we were taught that these phenomena were actually 'God.' Which meant that the rest of life other than these phenomena was 'not God.' Of course the God word is loaded, but there are zillions of people out there meditating in many very, very different ways, with no bells or whistles like 'knowledge' to distract them. It's a bit glamorous, the old Knowledge. Like just being with your own awareness is somehow not quite enough and so you have to have these dramatic inner Bollywood experiences. Some people do, perhaps once or twice (although I bet more people fake these experiences in K sessions than fake orgasm on spring break). When you're in the whole carefully doubt-pruned and belief-conditioned field of being a premie, you come to believe that these strange little cracks in the body lead you to the divine experience. Yet we know from our experience and from talking to people who've been doing it for years, that a remarkabe dearth of actual equanimity, compassion, real acceptance and so on actually seem to arise from these practices. The best might be that one is focusing a bit on breathing which can center the mind and be healthy (and is nothing special nor unique to K). 'Knowledge' is just 4 techniques out of a smorgasbord of many Radha Soami techniques. MJ picked 4 for the west. Even his brother teaches 6 I think. They are even more pathetic when they involve holding your arms in the air, or scrunching up on your knees. Completely block the life energy moving through the body. If you are still in the unfortunate conditioned belief system that believes there is something very very special about MJ and 'his' knowledge, know that it's just a conditioned belief system. There is definitely, in my experience, a possibility of experiencing higher consciousness and great expansiveness while human. But these pathetic pieces of techniques, not even understood or mastered by their so-called master (who even gets defensive when asked if he meditates!) are not much of a portal to the self, imnsho. love ktd

Subject: Thanks Gregg - BEST OF (nt) From: Crispy To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:59:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Thank you, Maharaji! From: AV To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:23:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember at Central Hall westminster 1971,M saying something to the effect of (a reference to color-prejudice)'you are not accepting me, you are accepting my knowledge, knowledge hasn't got a color...'If one had a 'spritual teacher' who enabled one to have an enriched life and wiser, broader vision of existence, then I imagine it would be completely normal to feel love, respect admiration, and perhaps that is natural response; if I were a young violinist and had been taught by, say, Yehudi Menhuin, how could one not feel a sense of 'devotion' (if that is the right word). it can appear disturbing when that love , respect etc. is demanded as a pre-requisite for the process to work, and is in fact promoted via videos etc. Such a relationship surely is private , almost sacred in that respect, and to market 'adoration of the master'as if it were a product comes across as indiscrete and tacky, and only has merit if one is 'preaching to the converted'.I can't help but feel saddened...

Subject: Yes, it is tacky, AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:11:01 (EST) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: You said: ''...it can appear disturbing when that love, respect etc. is demanded as a pre-requisite for the process to work, and is in fact promoted via videos etc....'' Instead of renaming Knowledge to Self-Knowledge maybe Rawat should have called it K-Mart. Have I talked to you before, AV? If not - how do you do? I'm Patrick Conlon of San Francisco.

Subject: Oh Waiter, cheque please! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:06:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I almost forgot. A couple of weeks ago I registered for the second greatest event in the history of the planet: the next gathering of the Tribe of Rawat in Australia. Yes indeedy, those sharp as nails coordinators of the Greasiest Show on Earth have accepted my request to visit the Lard Incarnalate at his abode in Jonestown, I mean Amaroo. The door is truly always open and my heart soars like a swan! ...except now I'm getting dunning e-mail for my payment by 'cheque.' Oh Lard won't you buy me a ticket to Oz!

Subject: Excellent idea From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:39:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about taking up a collection so that Gerry, John, or Marge Large, or maybe Pauline Premie could attend the 'event' in Amaroo, with the proviso that they must report back every detail here and on EPO. Perhaps we could also invest in hidden recording equipment/video cameras? On requirement, you MUST go through the darshan line, but actual contact of lips to the pudgy feet of 'the speaker' would not be required. I think this is an excellent idea, and I would be happy to donate. Now, does anyone have the stomach to actually go?

Subject: MiniDisc recorder w/stealth mics From: Francesca To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:51:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If the person who goes has a minidisc recorder they can use stealth mics. They are very small (but not cheap) and can be put into a pair of 'croakies' sunglass holders. Francesca Minidisc stealth mics www.soundprofessionals.com/

Subject: I love this 007 stuff... From: PatD To: Francesca Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:36:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...let's get heem really paranoid. A telescopic blowpipe hidden in a a packet of Marlboro,with the curare tipped dart inside a pen. Probably only work from the front row,kind of like a suicide mission for the perp. but shit,what a way to go......poooft.....I just offed the Lord of the Universe 'cos he's spent my trust fund & anyway he never said he was the Lord of the Universe,so I plead insanity. Then there's the......I'm joking of course. Love : PatD

Subject: Where's Your Smart Card? From: Dumbass To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No SmartCard needed, Dumbass From: gerry To: Dumbass Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:05:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I've got two weeks to submit... payment. JOE, LET'S GET THIS PARTICIPATION CONTRIBUTION THINGY ROLLING ! I'M OFF TO SEE THE WIZARD !! VISA AND MASTERCARD ACCEPTED !!!

Subject: How much? From: Joe To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:42:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the cheapest, erd I mean, most economical, Amaroo plan available? I think that requires sleeping in a basic tent right next to a heavily-used toilet or something, but, hey, it's for a good cause.

Subject: I got the 'Pioneer Twin' From: gerry To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:03:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the cheapest, erd I mean, most economical, Amaroo plan available? I think that requires sleeping in a basic tent right next to a heavily-used toilet or something, but, hey, it's for a good cause. --- I happened to pick just that plan in my registration. I felt this was modestly priced at $235 dollars US, of course, for two nights. And I'm dying to meet my new roommate. Hope's she's the chatty sort and doesn't snore too much. We have to discuss a food budget. I'm absolutely not standing in those horrid lines for hours in the heat to eat some sloppy dahl over mushy brown rice again ever in my life! No,it's whatshername The Torch Singer's Restaurant or nothing for me. my reg at EV www.regonline.com/reports/profile.asp?eid=4946&aid=83497

Subject: volunteers are putting them up - From: Wrt your 'Pioneer Twin To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 21:14:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When is someone going to forward this information to the volunteers who set up those tents at $32 (Aus?) each? Tent city boggles mind OVER several weekends in March and April about 154 SES Volunteers and SES Cadets from Ipswich, Boonah, Esk and Redcliffe erected 850 tents at the Ivory Rock Convention Centre near Ipswich. Volunteers had to erect the tents according to specifications set out by the hosts, lay internal carpeting and flooring in each tent and fit out the tents with bedding, cupboards and other furniture. Over 2000 tents were erected to accommodate 4000 delegates from more than 60 countries in what is believed to be the largest open air convention ever held in the southern hemisphere. The Elan Vital conference was lead by the Indian spiritual 'guru' Maharaji, who taught delegates the 'four secrets of his non-religious way to enlightenment.' 'The SES Units receive $32 per tent,' said District Manager Brian Scotney. 'While the work is time consuming (not to mention back breaking), the outcomes definitely make it worthwhile,' 'Our work is just a small part of this operation - the total infrastructure is mind boggling!' he said. (if you have PDF, you can see a picture!) http://www.emergency.qld.gov.au/ses/PDFs/SES_News/SES_NEWS-Mar-Apr_2001.pdf http link www.google.ca/search?q=cache:8Pa4mMEPzGEC:www.emergency.qld.gov.au/ses/PDFs/SES_News/SES_NEWS-Mar-Apr_2001.pdf+guru++tent+volunteers+australia&hl=en

Subject: It's a darn good thing I booked when I did From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:24:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because, look at this: Registration and Onsite Accommodation Options PLEASE NOTE THAT PIONEER TENTS, BOTH SINGLE AND TWIN, ARE NOW FULLY BOOKED AND NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Please select ONE of the following options. If you are choosing an onsite accommodation, you do not need to select registration, because registration is included in your package. All costs are per person, in US dollars. Costs are inclusive of the mandatory 10% Australia Goods and Services Tax (GST). If you choose twin or double, please enter the name of the person you are sharing with in the space provided below the options. Registration Only -- US$156 (includes $14.18 GST) Cost: $156.00 Oops, i missed this one Deluxe Single -- US$1,510 including registration (includes $137.27 GST) Cost: $1,510.00 Deluxe Double -- US$ 1,210 including registration (includes $110 GST) Cost: $1,210.00 The cheapest flight from Seattle to Brisbane is $1462. plus $A40 for transport from Brisbane to the uh, compound. Hey this is getting expensive and we haven't eaten a thing!

Subject: I know someone who From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 00:46:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: walked in the front gates for free, three years ago. He told me the whole money threat is vaporware. If you show up at the roadway, and babble a bunch of well known names from over the years, and toss off a couple of famous events you went to down the years, they shrug and let you walk in for nothing. there's nothing that says you HAVE to travel by THEIR agency. If you could get to OZ leaving early, migrating across the pacific on the cheap, you could get there in advance of the event and probably weasel your way right in as ground staff. The money up front, the registration illusion--it's all sheer holographic projection. It only looks real. When you walk right up to it, it turns out to be insubstantial and you can put your hand right thru it. And then your body. And walk in, free. NO card, no reg, no fee, no nuttin. They haven't got the heart to turn anyone away. They can't afford to! They need to fill seats. They need to look like they have numbers! The have to hope that money will be spent once inside the grounds! And the fewer people show up, the worse it looks. You don't really think that if a premie shows up at the gates of amaroo and tells them he managed to come all the way for america, or canada, or anywhere, that they're gonna actually not let him enter??? think about it. who else in the whole world even knows who mharaji IS? Isn't the whole urge driving the phenomenon, the yearning to get more people to come? Bring more people in on the secret? Make the audience bigger? Be able to share the same thing with someone else who knows the same secret?? Given the leader's fatal weakness for an audience, I would bet that the very notion of keeping a premie out, would be impossible to reinforce in the end. Leave no room for doubt in your mind: Walk in like you own the place. Really--we do.

Subject: He might have got in free, but ... From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:41:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could this be the Amaroo equivalent of having to wash the dishes ... (ie washing the shit out of all the premies' heads?) www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/amarooouthouse.jpg

Subject: I think Richard has it (nt) From: Joe To: Dumbass Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:35:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Here it is From: GetSmart (aka Richard) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:55:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We here at GetSmart facilitation and synchronicity synchronization facilities are always ready to go beyond industry standards to identify our non-members in a facilitated synchronicity. Notice that we've gone beyond the worn out technology of printed cards. We now use web-based cards exclusively. EPO GetSmart Never a membership since whenever Joe Got Smart 64.45.46.159/photo/getsmart_jw.jpg

Subject: GetSmart facilitation/synchronization facilities From: cq To: GetSmart (aka Richard) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:49:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: er ... is that a mobile phone in your hand, Agent Smart, or are you just pleased to get close to your sole? i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1150/5926_0014.jpg

Subject: Have no fear From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:16:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elan Vital is a registered charity in many countries. I'm sure they'll help you out.

Subject: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Dep =) To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:38:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the loneliest moments of your life did you look to the intellect for the answers or guidance? I doubt it. Historians tell us we live in the 'age of anxiety.' There have been few times in history where human beings have been subject to so much fear and distress. So where do we look for guidance? How about political freedom? IMO political freedom has not led to a better world. Most Western countries have political freedom and democracy yet the angst remains. How about education? Maybe political freedom plus education would do the trick. That will lead us down a bright, well-lit sensible path won’t it? Has it? We are the most informed people in the history of civilisation and yet the most confused. Most high school students know more about the physical laws of the universe than the greatest scientist in the days of Aristotle. But while our heads are crammed with data, our hearts are empty, and the angst remains. Well how about a higher standard of living? Perhaps that will make us happier and more content. Yeah that’s the ticket - more stuff. But look around. At this moment in history the West has political freedom undreamed of years ago, an extensive public education system open to all, and an unparalleled standard of living. Have these things brought us the satisfaction, happiness and contentment we were seeking? I don’t think so. Do all these modern wonders bring us a sense of completion, do they explain why we are here, and give us a sense of belonging? Or do people feel more empty, alone and helpless than ever. Does the antidote for human fear and hatred and evil lie in some laboratory test tube or some computer circuit? If you want the answer check out your daily newspaper. Like a spider we have become ensnared in the web of our own thoughts, trapped so cleverly that we can no longer see either the cause or the cure of the disease that is inflicting such lethal pain. Skyrocketing suicide rates among teens, divorce, alienated children, bored people constantly seeking to be entertained, constantly buying more stuff, watching more videos, taking more pills, all in a misguided attempt to lose that awful, frightening, hollow feeling of being lost and alone. So what is the cure for this emptiness and suffering? More science? More stuff? I think not. IMO the answer is the Spirit and belief in God, however you choose to define that higher power. Filling ourselves with science, education, better living and pleasure, filling ourselves with the many things we thought we wanted or were told by advertisers we wanted, simply doesn’t fill the emptiness. Materialism is leading us nowhere but down - and eventually out. We will never fill the distressing emptiness in ourselves unless we acknowledge the Spirit, that higher power, and turn it over. IMO we will never end the angst and confusion until we contact and experience that which is unchanging within. The intellect is limited. During WWII, Dr. Reinhold Neibuhr wrote the following prayer, which happens to be my favourite: God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change Courage to change the things I can And wisdom to know the difference. Are there things in this life that we cannot change, that we just have to accept? I think so. Spirit is the answer. =)

Subject: Re: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:31:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about trying creativity? Writing, playing music if you're that way inclined, painting (ditto), or sculpture, or learning to act, or learning any new skill for that matter? It sounds as if you've fallen prey to a particular type of nihilism that tends to beset so many premies after years and years of listening to Maharaji imply that human activities, such as those I named above, have little or no intrinsic value. I know a lot of people, not premies, who lead deep, rich and fulfilling lives. They are often creative people. They often set things up that are of huge value to their communities. They dispense much warmth and humour. Try to see beyond that premie-ish way of looking at the world. It's basically a very negative and, I think, erroneous view. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: The Limitations of Intellect - a sermon From: Jerry To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:38:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IMO the answer is the Spirit and belief in God, however you choose to define that higher power. And what if there is no God, Dep? Do we just pretend there is because it makes us happy? What about a longing for truth? Do we stifle that to find a nice, warm, snuggly cocoon to hide in. Seems to me that's what you're suggesting.

Subject: Having a heart From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 17:38:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doesn't equate to belief in fairytales, Dep. Imagination is a poor substitute for reality and an even poorer substitute for intellect. When I need comforting, I look to my wife, my child and my friends. They never disappoint, especially when it's obvious that I require some TLC. What's more.... it's R.E.A.L! They REALLY love me.... they REALLY care.... M couldn't care less if he tried.... god doesn't care because to care requires something that cares (e.g. he/she/it must exist). Imagined love and caring are the absolute poorest subtstitute for intellect, Dep. Think about it this way.... EVEN JIM cares more about you than M ever did..... how can I say this? Hey, at least Jim TALKS TO YOU and he's a real human being, too.

Subject: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: Jim To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:02:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not.

Subject: Re: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 22:24:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know.

Subject: Now you sound like an apocalyptic christian From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know. --- Yes, Dog, there must be a spiritual realm given all the troubles in the world -- which, I agree, are completely unprecedented. I had my doubts but when I thought of NASDAQ I realized that you, Hal Lindsey and Pat Roberston all must be right. These really are strange and ominous times. There are problems in the world, says Dog, so why not be spiritual? As for what I did under my blanket and why I stayed, I say this with all due respect, if, after reading this forum for the last couple of years, you still have that question, you really don't get nothing. You are entirely oblivious to the entire cult conditioning that caught you, yes, but left you dangling for the last two and a half decades with your head hanging out the net. Put it together for us, Dog. Spell it out. You think that Knowledge is real, right? What does that make Maharaji? Hm?

Subject: apocalyptic christian no just guardedly optimistic From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:49:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NAR, What do you think of Dog's boring rendition of 'these-are-the-emptiest-days' cult classic? Do you buy it? I don't. But it serves Dog's story and that's what counts. Anything that he can use to justify ignoring the modern world in favour of his cherished old spiritual crap, he'll use it. That's why I call his attitude 'fearful'. He's hiding from the world around him. And what attitude! Here's a guy who just now, as I've said to him and will remind him every chance I get, has just now finally seen through -- or partially through, let's be honest. Dog is about as much an ex-premie as he was a premie at this point -- the cult leader that tricked him for years and years. Dog, of course, doesn't bat an eyelash. He's right back with more 'sermons' as if he wasn't fooled for decades, as if he doesn't have any regrouping at all to do, no re-evaluation, nothing. It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge': What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that Dog is so stuck in limbo it's doing him a disservice to even consider him an ex-premie. He's not. --- Hi Jim, Glad the future is looking soooooo bright for you. Things are going great aren't they? NASDAQ, the Mid-East, the ozone layer etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe things really have been picking up and I just haven't noticed. You know, I've been down in the basement hiding from the world. I'm a spiritual ex, that's what I am. And you loathe anything to do with spirituality. Fine by me. No problemo! But I am a little curious. If you got nothing out of Knowledge why did you stick around for 8 long years? I'm serious. If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket, and not getting anything out it, why did you stick around for as long as you did. If it had gotten nothing out of mediation I would have lasted 8 months, tops. Was it the whole LOTU thing, and you wanted to be on the right side? Was it the community? Did you just want to be different? Shock your parents? I'm serious! I want to know. --- Yes, Dog, there must be a spiritual realm given all the troubles in the world -- which, I agree, are completely unprecedented. I had my doubts but when I thought of NASDAQ I realized that you, Hal Lindsey and Pat Roberston all must be right. These really are strange and ominous times. There are problems in the world, says Dog, so why not be spiritual? As for what I did under my blanket and why I stayed, I say this with all due respect, if, after reading this forum for the last couple of years, you still have that question, you really don't get nothing. You are entirely oblivious to the entire cult conditioning that caught you, yes, but left you dangling for the last two and a half decades with your head hanging out the net. Put it together for us, Dog. Spell it out. You think that Knowledge is real, right? What does that make Maharaji? Hm? --- I woulda stayed 8 months tops! TOPS!

Subject: Re: Just a bunch of off-the-shelf cliches From: New-Age Redneck To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:14:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, this is classic: '....It's business as usual for Dog. That he can now cut Maharaji out of the equation is a trifling detail for him. After all, listen to his great respect for 'Knowledge'....' Isn't that part of what the whole premie cult-trip was supposed to do? Make it possible to 'just forget' about everything and everyone you considered important without batting an eyelash? After all... we are on this secret, sacred, most-holy journey to never-never land.... that we get to experience...... LATER! he he he :) I agree, I don't think dep is really an ex, yet. When he discovers that you must equate the 'teacher' with 'that which is taught,' THEN he/she will be an ex.

Subject: A fear-based appeal to ignorance From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:42:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fancy talk masking fear and ingorance. You should put a collar on, Dog, and start a church.

Subject: i don't see fear in that. From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but I don't think the ending is the answer either. I think the 'answer' is much vaster, more variegated, and the discussion ought to be far more eclectic than this.

Subject: Jim, you are shackled to logic [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:52:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excuse me??! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not the one who just now, after years and years of every warning sign flashing like crazy, literal years, in fact, right here on this very forum, disputing the most obvious truth with the stupidest apologist arguments, has finally realized that the one-time teenage Lord of the Universe is fake. And you're going to tell me how to think properly?! You're a joke.

Subject: logic isn't all, Jim From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:18:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the very idea of telling another how to think makes my hackles go up, and probably others' as well. there is an offensive arrogance to telling someone else how they should think, or in treating them dismissively because of how they think. every organism has to think for itself, by itself. you don't know what it is to be anyone but you. and while you crusade as if you wanted to meet up with a whole society of people who would think just like you do, in truth, you would be ego- offended unto madness if you met even one other 'you' face to face. you have no idea how much of your sense of yourself comes from the fact that you are the only one of you ever made. you think yuo want others to be like you but actually, you don't. newsflash for ya, JIMbo-- each one of us, out here, is also the only one of us, ever made, and we like the way we are. I see no need to duplicate and be like you, do what you're doing, and expecially, to think as you think --- BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY DOING IT AND WHY BE REDUNDANT IF IT'S ALREADY BEING DONE? there is far more to the organism, and to life, than logic. I wish you would lose the use of your left brain for just a couple of months. Just long enough to transform your addiction. and using dep's particular timeline and process to exit , contrasted with yours, doesn't make for a genuine example. there are other processes, other realizations, other feelings, besides your logic, which move a person to a decision in life.

Subject: 'Logic' would be a damned good start From: Janet To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:29:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, despite Jim's 'strong' response to silliness, per se, I don't believe that he is TELLING anyone 'what' to think, but rather 'how' to get started. For those that have thought of the 'mind' as the 'enemy' for so long, someone HAS to do that, at the very least. Do you really believe that, without proper secular schooling, you would have thought up the proper way to think? I don't! I'm really happy that I was taught 'how' to think, not 'what' to think. If someone is telling you 'what' to think, then thay are anti-thought, right? I don't believe for a second that Jim could ever be accused of being anti-thought. Anyway, I digress.... logical thought is a 'way of thinking,' not 'what to think.' It is something that needs to be 'exercised' to be effective. I would say that us 'cult folks' can use all of the exercise we can get. I'm glad that people take the time to remind me/us of this, aren't you?

Subject: Re: 'Logic' would be a damned good start From: PatC's Mom To: Janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:09:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC: ''Maharaji shows you that the mind is the problem.'' PatC's Mom: ''But how do you know what he's talking about without your mind?'' Goya, the Spanish painter: ''The imagination is what makes us different from the animals. Imagination without reason leads to the creation of impossible monsters. Imagination wedded to reason leads to art.''

Subject: Oopppssss! (the above is mine) From: New-Age Redneck To: Janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:30:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've almost 'done that' several times today..... I finally did it! :)

Subject: Try the edit button. It works. From: Richard To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 19:29:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum Tip #37 If you want to correct a post, add to it, edit, practice revisionism, whatever, you can. Just click the (edit this message) button at the bottom of the message box when you read it. You can edit your message for a certain time frame after you post it.

Subject: One point I agree wholeheartedly on From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:26:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One point I agree wholeheartedly on, Janet. You say: 'there is an offensive arrogance to telling someone else how they should think, or in treating them dismissively because of how they think'. Yup, but you see, Jim gets paid for doing just that. I guess it's only natural that his legal training leaves very few qualms about honing his professional skills (or sharpening his teeth) by taking on virtually ANY argument, ESPECIALLY an argument he has a natural (well, natural given his disillusionment with the likes of the Maha) dislike for.

Subject: Janet's at it again! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 09:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is so funny. Janet, I must say you have your very own form of hypocrisy that's simply ...um, out of this world maybe? Here you are lecturing me for telling Dog how to think or talk, but then look at you: Take the time to reach into yourself, Dep. When you speak to someone, give them something real, from you alone. Describe what you have come understand using your own words and meanings. It may take practice. You may find that you slip into the urge to throw convenient quotes all too often. Be rigorous with yourself. Be authentic. Be genuine. Be original. Be new. You're too much, Yoda. I wonder, though, why you can't see this. Oh well, I guess there's a lot going on in that head of yours. Must get a little busy at times, huh?

Subject: Re: Well excuse me??! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:42:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not the one who just now, after years and years of every warning sign flashing like crazy, literal years, in fact, right here on this very forum, disputing the most obvious truth with the stupidest apologist arguments, has finally realized that the one-time teenage Lord of the Universe is fake. And you're going to tell me how to think properly?! You're a joke. --- Jim, I will never tire of your insults. The inner experience of Knowledge is real. The Spirit is the most real and lasting thing there is. Everything else changes. You know, the law of entropy and all that. Excuuuuuuuuse me? I'm not telling how to think properly. I'm telling that thought is limited. But if you want to put all your eggs in the 'rational basket,' go right ahead, feel free - if that's possible.

Subject: A Third Way? From: gerry To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:57:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK granted, materialism leaves gaps in our experience. But is the gawd and spiritualism really any better? Look at what the gawd and 'spiritualism' hath wrought-read the papers. Not much better than materialism I would say. Perhaps we need to make a sort humanism-and this is an undeveloped thought on my part- our model for living. I think it's fairly well fleshed out philosophy, but then I'm not much of a philosopher. My 'gut' feeling is if we concentrate less on material things, ignore the gawdism, and really learn to love one another we will be living in the Magic Kingdom. But then there's that damn pesky human nature, right bill? Nice essay though, Dog.

Subject: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: Crispy To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:45:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These two have been fighting with each other forever it seems - they should get married ;) Seriously I think they both have their own merits and dangers; but I can't imagine going for either AT THE COST OF or in place of, separate from, the other. Kind of like man's technological growth - it's good as long as his spiritual growth stays on par..... Now spirituality and religiosity - those two have been married WAY too long and should have been divorced long ago....

Subject: Sorry, but that really mean something? From: Jim To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 14:23:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These two have been fighting with each other forever it seems - they should get married ;) Seriously I think they both have their own merits and dangers; but I can't imagine going for either AT THE COST OF or in place of, separate from, the other. Kind of like man's technological growth - it's good as long as his spiritual growth stays on par..... Now spirituality and religiosity - those two have been married WAY too long and should have been divorced long ago.... --- What is this, Crispy? A regurgitation of Maharaji's old bullshit line about the west having a long material leg and the east having a long spiritual one and blah blah blah blah blah? Does this kind of talk actually mean anything? How do you define spirituality anyway? To me, it's belief in the supernatural. If you don't have that, you don't have spirituality, you just have being nice and stuff. We can all be nice and stuff without going anywhere near ideas like 'spirituality'. Just ...... be nice. :)

Subject: Re: Sorry, but that really mean something? From: Crispy To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 11:23:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Shite yes, I'm not surprised to get a response/question like yours. I'll try my best to clarify, although you probably won't like what I have to say. First of all, I'm guilty of using the term 'spirituality' very loosely. But the last thing I will ever do is try to define it as one thing for everybody, because I know it means many different things to different people. It further complicates defining when so many attempts at further understanding & improving who we are in any way other than the physical body & thoughts have been lumped under the 'spirituality or borderline spiritual experience' umbrella, i.e. - - from a Raiki healing session - to a supernatural hogwash psychic reading - to 'studying Zen without studying Zen' - to some nice brain chemisty (I think this is what mine was mostly) - to falling increasingly in love with the ugly, hairy thing next door with each additional mug of ale (?) - respect for life (and other's rights) - creative expression, i.e. a soul-purging song or beautiful piece of music - some good weed or acid - a near death experience - a 'coffee break' from spinning thoughts - a yoga relaxation exercise or a placidified (such a word?) central nervous system - arriving in one piece at the end of a whitewater run you were scared shitless to attempt (don't agree with this one) - making it with someone you love - recalling eternity in the moment with a breeze rustling in some neutron-giving trees that seem to have been there forever (er, at least long before, and after, you) - attending a sweat lodge session at a 1st Nations gathering - right down to slow-cooked food and environmental responsiveness Seriously, you can bet that after running from his feet, I've been going thru some major redefining of my own of what spirituality is to me, myself & I alone. And you can be VERY assured I'm not about to equate it with any of Mj's bullshit lines. Let alone with another 'master', thank you very much. I'm taking the cliche 'enjoying life' to new dimensions of my own, and I'm calling it MY OWN spirituality. Speaking of cliches, I also get 'sick to my stomach' (there's 1 4 u) upon hearing more cult-conditioned terms and definitions, repeated so frequently that I immediately feel the urge to go for a nap upon hearing first word of such lines. So I, too, appreciate someone who's unafraid to dig under a conditioned idea to say what they honestly think and feel for themselves. BTW, but I won't forget that a cliche, yes, can still contain an applicable truth. I won't chuck something on the premise alone that it's a coined phrase I've heard before, if it happens to still contain something credible. But this is a side note... Backtracking, when I used the words 'spiritual growth' in my line above in comparison to technological growth, I was referring to respect, reverence for and preservation of life and others' rights. And that's a very basic & loose reference, I admit. However, to clarify, these virtues are sorely needed hand-in-hand with our leaps in technological know-how, with which we can do much good, but can also wipe ourselves out pretty quickly. That's all I was getting at there. And I stand by separating anything spiritual (in whatever way it means to anyone - even if it's just some enjoyable brain chemistry) separating it from all manner of religious practice. By that I mean, whatever a person does experience, it's theirs alone and needs no homage to anyone else or any set of rules or belief system (BS). Jim, I know you regard all things relating to 'spirituality' as hogwallup since it's never proven. However, I'll continue to redefine it for myself. For now, my spirituality is a no-answer reality check of sorts - getting on with what's still good in my life & being thankful I can take from the cult what I will, move on and get stronger. I'm far from finished and will likely continue redefinining and reclaiming my spirituality until 'my spirit gives up on my body' ;) or 'I kick the bucket' or 'I pass on' or 'the grim reaper drops by for a cuppa' or 'I get hit by a bus' or 'my bagpipes finally do me in' or 'death comes knocking at my door' -......- you can fill in the blanks with as many cliche phrases you like for the word 'die'. You'll probably keep writing back until I also think of all spirituality as hogwash. But I'll tell you now not to waste your time because I'm keeping the redefining process my own. But thanks for prompting me to at least try to say what I mean more clearly! The term was indeed used loosely, but I hope the context is clear.... Cheers to ya, Jim (& by that I mean 'congenial goodwill' :) Crispy, clan motto: 'My mind remains unmoved!' - Aye! After 27 years in a cult it's still there B)

Subject: a little secret for Crispy From: a long time lurker To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:49:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't waste your precious time :) He's nuts.

Subject: great observation Crispy! lol! (nt) From: cq To: Crispy Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:17:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great observation Crispy! lol! (nt)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: gerry To: Crispy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 17:55:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm torsin' out the whole bath water these days. I think the concept of 'spirituality' is bogus ALSO, and based on personal interpretation and a dirth of any real information, or, hate to say it, scientific understanding. Liked your first line, though :)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: Dep To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:06:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm torsin' out the whole bath water these days. I think the whole concept of 'spirituality' is bogus, as is religion, and based on personal interpretation and a dirth of any real information, or, hate to say it, scientific understanding. Liked your first line, though :) --- Gerry, did you hear what you just said, 'The whole concept of spirituality' is bogus.' Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. Spirituality is 'nothing' special. Dep =)

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: ex WPC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:59:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Get real dep who ever you are there are more concepts about spirituality than any other subject. Once you voice any so called spiritual trip through the medium of spoken language you conceptualise what you wish to convey. Anyway my god is bigger than your god and has a longer pedigree and is better looking so there. Just off inside to have a nice long luxurious think about life, not its' meaning its' intricacies. Have fun but don't do anything I wouldn't aprove of

Subject: You say the stupidest things -- always! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:35:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you?

Subject: Re: You say the stupidest things -- always! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 22:52:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you.

Subject: I've asked you this before, Dep From: JHB To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 14:28:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The experience is one thing, the interpretation is another. Can you honestly say you are not putting a conceptual interpretation on your experience? For me, the experience is a result of brain chemistry where the part of the brain that deals in size and/or time has no input and shuts down. So you experience infinity and timelessness, for example. Unless you can produce some evidence that something else is happening, apart from you personally feeling that it is, then Iïl stich with brain chemistry. And without the interpretation that the experience is one of spirituality, it is just another high. Last time I said something like this, you ignored me, so I'd appreciate a response this time:-) John.

Subject: Re: I've asked you this before, Dep From: Dep =) To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 23:38:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I agree totally. The experience is one thing, the interpretation is another. In order to communicate about the experience I have to put a conceptual interpretation on it. I wouldn't be able to talk about it otherwise. If you see the experience is a result of brain chemistry fine. Sounds more likley than leprechauns. So stick with brain chemistry. Perhaps it is just another high. But it is a valuable one. When I meditate I feel safer, better, smarter, and like I am really me. I don't care so much about the mechanics of the experience. I like electricty too but I have no desire to know how it works. Flipping the switch and getting the light is good enough for me.

Subject: So the obvious question is... From: JHB To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:49:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? You accept that you have no evidence of anything other than a great feeling that helps you feel 'safer, better, smarter, and like you are really you', and yet you then make this leap to a spititual realm. I contend that that leap is the result of the concepts you have acquired growing up in a world where people frequently refer to spirituality, god, religion, soul, etc. Had you not been exposed to such concepts, you could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. John.

Subject: Re: So the obvious question is... From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 07:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? You accept that you have no evidence of anything other than a great feeling that helps you feel 'safer, better, smarter, and like you are really you', and yet you then make this leap to a spititual realm. I contend that that leap is the result of the concepts you have acquired growing up in a world where people frequently refer to spirituality, god, religion, soul, etc. Had you not been exposed to such concepts, you could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. John. --- ...where does this concept (yes, concept) of spirituality come from? Mind! All concepts are stored in and come from the mind. The concept of spirituality comes from our mind just like all the others. A concept of spirituality is still a concept. When we experience something it immediately get recorded in our brain. The sights, sounds, feelings, etc. These recordings collectively make up our mind. Wilder Penfield did some experiments on this during open brain surgery. By touching the exposed brain with an electrode patients had vivid recollections of experiences of childhood. It was as is they were suddenly 'there.' We are always recording even when we sleep. These recordings get re-interpreted by the other recordings to make sense of them. A Kahlahari Bushman would probably not understand football game as you would but would probably make up some kind of off the wall explanation. Agreed! Had I not been exposed to spiritual concepts, I could still have had the high, but would have been much more open-minded about what it meant. You can enjoy a meal without seeing a menu. There is a difference between a recording of an experience and the experience. Most people live in their recordings and don't see things freshly.

Subject: I'll respond.... WELL SAID From: New-Age Redneck To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB: this said it ALL: '...Unless you can produce some evidence that something else is happening, apart from you personally feeling that it is, then Iïl stich with brain chemistry....' Well said, and right to the crux of this 'spiritual thing.' No one has ever produced your requested 'evidence' and they never will..... I DO love brain chemistry, especially now that I know that's what 'it' is...... :)

Subject: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 23:45:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you. --- First, you're concept-free. Then you're all tucked in in a new-age cradle imagining E.T. or Yoda or someone reading you all these spiritual fairy tales. What was I doing in the ashram? I was in a cult, stupid! I was chasing my tail. I was praying to an imaginary god and imagining his imaginary presence in my life, courtesy of the grace of the Lord of the Universe. You know what? You're just plain dumb. There is such a major disconnect happening with you, I can't believe it.

Subject: Re: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 00:21:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spirituality has no concepts, that's why it's different from mind. That is so stupid, I just can't believe it. I really can't. I'm gobsmacked, dumbstruck .... just shaking my head. Can you really, honestly be that stupid? No, I mean seriously, can you? --- Let me explain this to you then. We can either have semantics or nothing, mind or spirit. Obviously concepts about spirituality are not spirituality. Concepts are things, created things, stuff. So concepts about spirituality are not spirituality, they are simply concepts, i.e. mind. True spirituality is an experience that is empty and devoid of words and meaning. It's that spaciousness and peace, when the internal dialogue stops. Many who practice Knowledge have experienced that state. We need words to describe Spirit, but the experience of Spirit is silent. The 'drunken monkey' shuts up. There is a Zen story about not mistaking the finger for the moon it is ponting at. Talking about spirituality is the map, the experience of spirituality is the territory. The menu is not the meal! The physical universe is the physical universe. The Spirit is Spirit. Jim, can you tell the difference between something and nothing? Most people can. The soul is not physical. Jeez! I feel a little awkward talking to you about this, because these concepts are not that difficult to get. What the fuck did you do in the ashram for 8 years? What were you doing under your meditation blanket, watching mental movies of Maharaji? If you were, that was not Spirit it was spiritual materialism, i.e. the conceptual realm. You are so stuck in your story you think there is nothing else. I feel sorry for you. --- First, you're concept-free. Then you're all tucked in in a new-age cradle imagining E.T. or Yoda or someone reading you all these spiritual fairy tales. What was I doing in the ashram? I was in a cult, stupid! I was chasing my tail. I was praying to an imaginary god and imagining his imaginary presence in my life, courtesy of the grace of the Lord of the Universe. You know what? You're just plain dumb. There is such a major disconnect happening with you, I can't believe it. --- I am free of concepts sometimes when I meditate. Most of the time I'm in the mind spin, but I do get a break now and then, which is more than most people I suspect. A person is sleepwalking when he is lost in his story. That is tail chasing. Around and around you go, stimulus-response, stimulus-response. Effect, effect effect, the wheel of samsara. Oh I forgot, you don't like new age concepts from 2,600 years ago. You are not your story Jim. That's not who you are. That's not life! If you were just chasing your tail under your meditation blanket for 8 years, no wonder you are so pissed off. These concepts aren't the truth either. I don't claim that they are. Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger. Thoughts are like photographs, they are not really the thing. The intellect filters our experience and sometimes it fucks us up. Can't you see that? Spirit brings happiness and clarity. In the Spirit we transcend our conditioning and glimpse the very essence of our being. At least that's been my experience.

Subject: Uh Oh! Not the 'WHEEL OF SAMSARA'!!!!!!! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:18:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A person is sleepwalking when he is lost in his story. That is tail chasing. Around and around you go, stimulus-response, stimulus-response. Effect, effect effect, the wheel of samsara. Oh I forgot, you don't like new age concepts from 2,600 years ago. Wow, Dog, I had no idea that your belief system was that old! I now have much deeper respect for you. Hey, fella, that's one very old religion you got. Tell me, do you have any ancient texts or anything I can look at? Coool!

Subject: Re: YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:00:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, BELIEF in an imaginary 'Spirit' brings ignorance and obsfucation. If we quit our BELIEF 'In the Spirit' we transcend our ignorance and see the world for what it is. We 'glimpse the very essence of our being,' which is a physical, relatively fragile, one-time and precious thing. Don't you realize that all of this stupid 'spirit' belief, the belief that there is something 'better' and 'more' is the very thing that 'causes' a disrespect for life? Why care about 'this life' when there is so much more.... AFTER.... LATER.... PIE-IN-THE-SKY.... NO, this IS it! It's all you've got and it is all you will ever have. So wake up and appreciate it and appreciate those around you. Stop 'believing' and imagining and start actually living. Tick, tick, tick.... do you hear that? It's all the time you've spent imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world. WAKE UP!

Subject: Re: NO YOU'RE SLEEPWALKING! From: Dep =) To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 21:56:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, BELIEF in an imaginary 'Spirit' brings ignorance and obsfucation. If we quit our BELIEF 'In the Spirit' we transcend our ignorance and see the world for what it is. We 'glimpse the very essence of our being,' which is a physical, relatively fragile, one-time and precious thing. Don't you realize that all of this stupid 'spirit' belief, the belief that there is something 'better' and 'more' is the very thing that 'causes' a disrespect for life? Why care about 'this life' when there is so much more.... AFTER.... LATER.... PIE-IN-THE-SKY.... NO, this IS it! It's all you've got and it is all you will ever have. So wake up and appreciate it and appreciate those around you. Stop 'believing' and imagining and start actually living. Tick, tick, tick.... do you hear that? It's all the time you've spent imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world. WAKE UP! --- New-Age, I am not asking you to believe in Spirit any more than I am asking you to believe in gravity. Both exist independent of your belief. What happens if you don't believe in gravity and jump off a roof? Beliefs take place in the domain of mind, beleifs are concepts. I am asking you to experience Spirit, to transcend your mind, if only for a minute. It's refreshing! Spirit is not a belief, Spirit is an experience. When we meditate we get clear and we really see the the world as it is. We transcend our robot conditioning. It's like hitting the 'clear' button on a calculator. If we use a calculator and get an answer to our problem, we hit the clear button before going on to a new calculation, don't we? If we don't, we are going to get some wierd and very innacurate answers. I happen to 'believe' that the very essence of our being is not physical. Ever see a photograph of yourself when you were a kid. Ever compare it a photograph of yourself now. Ever notice that you look different? I firmly 'believe' that only when we are centred in Spirit, connected, uncluttered, can we truly respect life. I don't believe in PIE-IN-THE-SKY. As Muhammed Ali once said, 'I'm not interested in pie, high in the sky, by and by. I want something sound while I'm around on the ground.' Spirit is real. I'm a practical kinda guy. I don't even know if there is a life after this one. Spirit helps me to enjoy this one. If I have been 'imagining there is 'more,' rather than being right HERE in the real world,' then I've probably been daydreaming and not in the Spirit. Imagination is okay IMO, but it's not life. 'What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?' Soul is that connection to what is real and unchanging, the Rock of Ages, the Tao, the ground of being. Build your house on that New-Age. You ask me to WAKE UP! From what? The mind spin? My soap opera? Cultural hypnosis? The subliminals pounded into my head by advertisers? Meditation or the Spirit does wake me up, thank you very much. I don't know how much meditation you have done or if you even have Knowledge but Spirit is not a belief it is an experience, an EXPERIENCE of clarity. I can't speak for anyone else but Spirit brings me aliveness, happiness, clarity, love and self-expression. I can't force you to have the EXPERIENCE of aliveness, happiness, clarity, love and self-expression Spirit brings. I can't meditate for you. All I want you to know is that concept and experience are DIFFERENT!!!!

Subject: trying original language From: janet to DEP To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:38:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, it doesn't help your clarity to use timeworn expressions that didn't originate with you. You are repelling Jim by speaking in other people's words, not your own. It makes you sound like a programmind puppet. Strive instead to describe your perspective using your own words, your own expressions, your own observations. I made a vow back in the 80's to ditch all the parroting of commonly recited phrases when trying to converse about this subject. Jargon weakens one's efforts to share themselves genuinely with another. If what you want them to understand is important enough to you, you will communicate from your self, using new words, and not pass out photocopied leaflets of the words of someone who is neither present, nor a party to the discussion. Take the time to reach into yourself, Dep. When you speak to someone, give them something real, from you alone. Describe what you have come understand using your own words and meanings. It may take practice. You may find that you slip into the urge to throw convenient quotes all too often. Be rigorous with yourself. Be authentic. Be genuine. Be original. Be new. If you find you can't, perhaps there is no original experience THERE. And THAT is a worthy question to scour yourself with.

Subject: Sometimes you're smart, Janet From: PatC To: janet to DEP Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:14:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I enjoyed your post. I hope Dep figures it out. I especially enjoyed your typo: ''a programmind puppet.'' Now, if only I can impress upon you to tame your imagination. Okay, I'm nagging. :C)

Subject: the last word? From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:26:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I'm used to one of my comments being the last on many a thread, y'dig? (;)) But what's with this VERSUS trip? Why does spirit HAVE to be 'versus' MIND???? We've got both. Both can be used. Or ignored (if you're into tail-spins). Two wings to fly, no? (and before anyone gets too smart - don't even THINK of suggesting that rockets don't need 'em. They're just called stabilisers, is all).

Subject: Re: the last word? From: Dep To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 13:07:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I'm used to one of my comments being the last on many a thread, y'dig? (;)) But what's with this VERSUS trip? Why does spirit HAVE to be 'versus' MIND???? We've got both. Both can be used. Or ignored (if you're into tail-spins). Two wings to fly, no? (and before anyone gets too smart - don't even THINK of suggesting that rockets don't need 'em. They're just called stabilisers, is all). --- Versus no - oscillation yes.

Subject: You don't oscillate From: New-Age Redneck To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look up 'oscillator' and you will readily see that you can't oscillate. The word you are looking for is VACILLATE. :)

Subject: Re: You don'y oscillate From: Dep =) To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:28:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: New-Age, My dictionary defines oscillate as: to swing or move to and fro as a pendulum does; to vary or vascillate between differing beliefs, conditions, or states. Want to call this one a draw? =)

Subject: Re: You don't oscillate From: Dep= To: New-Age Redneck Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:24:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Intellectuality vs. spirituality From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:37:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're correct about spirituality being 'nothing special.' It isn't. It's just another meme, if you prefer. If spiritual isn't a concept, (and I believe it is) than just what the heck is it?

Subject: What IS spiritual, you ask? From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:43:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: spiritual is being true to your whole self. Which is why religions will always fail.

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual, you ask? From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 21:00:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its interesting, I always assumed every one was having the 'same experience'...it's only later when u talk openly that u find a whole variety of experiences going on; from 'bliss' to 'freaked-out', and possibly alot of freak outs were from people convinced they were 'in their heads' and therefore excluded from the divine goodies that everyone else (except them) were graced with...I'm no intellectual or expert on any of this, but I do observe how religious (and I guess other 'like-minded' groups) attempt to define or organise the 'collective-experience'; i.e. if you're having 'that experience' you're in, otherwise you're out...we are all utterly unique, do ANY two people have the same experience from appreciating a piece of art or music or whatever? I believe I was harmed greatly be being forced to accept there was an ultimate common experience of 'truth-conciousness-bliss' that I SHOULD be embracing, and that was the same for all, and all else was meaningless; therein lies the undermining of self worth 'all these guys are getting so blissed out,whats wrong with me???'what two people ever had the same experience I wonder? I can remember coming out of programs (interesting choice of word)years ago feeling very exalted, feeling an overbrimming real love, and everyone else seemed to be feeling it too,I guess you could call that spiritual, I would say at the time it was pretty well priceless; but dogma, group mind sets and rigid zeolotry (is that a word??) is turbid , the difference between a poet and a word processor. perhaps its healthier to look at the spirit and intellect as two tools in the box, both requiring skillfull and patient handling, rather than the spirit and intellect being two opposing armies, otherwise a self divided will be the result.

Subject: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: John Macgregr To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:29:31 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Might jump in on this thread, because the one I wrote about ‘What is the Knowledge?’ and the ‘God of evolution’ is now way down. BTW, there are replies to Lesley, Jim, et al down there. And the below kind of fits in with this thread anyway. Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. But our problem is that since the Middle Ages we have crossed the Rubicon into a rational worldview, and we can’t ever cross back again. To do so exposes one to “archaism” (childishly returning to old values), which is IMO even more damaging to the psyche than, say, atheism. Knowledge was kind of cutting edge in its day, at least in some ways: it took us rapidly and at times joyously out of old ways of thinking. (Yes, I know about all the downsides too: no need to remind me.) But thesedays those downsides are all that’s left: the Maharaji paradigm has become ossified. Those clinging to it look increasingly like conservatives, archaists, backwards-lookers, clingers-to-the-past. Anyway, in acknowleding AV’s excellent observation of the double entendre “program” - i.e. they were what we attended and what happened to us - I’ll try and jump on the “what is spiritual” thread again... The experiences we got from, for example, “Knowledge”, are precisely the effects we would expect from calming the central nervous system. In other words, no explanation involving “spirit” - let alone a master or his grace - is required. The phemonena are perfectly explained by known mechanisms. Worse still, we are starting to comprehend where these experiences - including their self-deceptive aspects - might have come from in an evolutionary sense. Well, I’m developing some theories of my own in this area, but I wouldn’t be surprised if others with more knowledge have reached the same conclusions. The more I think about it, the more I think the circumstantial evidence stacks up for God having entered the human genetic code. Firstly, like the genetically installed urges toward hunger, sex and violence, he is ubiquitous and ineradicable. Secondly, he appears from archaeological evidence to have been around for hundreds of thousands of years - perhaps enough time to have entered the genome. Thirdly (and this is my theory), once our brains grew larger than those of any other animal in history, he provided us human animals with meaning: that is, he answered the questions which our unique cortex had started to pose to us. Other animals had no need of such answers - in other words no need to conjure such a being as God with other, pre-logical parts of their brains - because their brains were too small to construct questions for them about morality, suffering and death. But we we were developing rationality, and so our brains were asking such questions. Because survival is uppermost for every species, we had to have those questions answered as a matter of urgency. Whether the answers were “right” or “wrong” was of no interest to evolution (a “watchmaker” who is blind not only to the future but to morality). They merely had to be convincing. So evolution gave us the various types of religious experience - what could be more “real” than euphoria, peace and numinosity? These exquisite feelings must have seemed a lot more concrete to our ancestors than logical considerations about whether the “great spirit” behind these feelings existed or not. They certainly seemed a lot more concrete than logic to me, in 1972, and I’d had a liberal education. Finally, as I pointed out in my last post taking issue with Lesley’s idea that God serves us merely as a “father”, he is complex. He invokes in us not just filial loyalties, but also feelings of euphoria, acceptance, calm, numinosity, timelessness, expanded boundaries, sharpened consciousness, ineffability, deep “knowing”, love, self-love - and so on. This complexity is a hallmark of an evolutionary product. To quote two subjects dear to Lesley’s heart - Richard Dawkins and orchids, or more accurately one talking about the other: “Mark Ridley quotes Darwin on orchids, in a letter to Asa Gray: ’It is impossible to imagine so many co-adaptations being formed all by a chance blow’. As Ridley (1982) goes on, ‘The evolution of complex organs had to be gradual because all the correct changes would not occur in a single large mutation.’” To me this suggests that God did not arise suddenly (say in the agricultural era), but was assembled gradually and unconsciously and through the process of natural selection, as a response to the otherwise unanswerable problems posed by a large brain capable of understanding that it will one day suffer and die. Given that the necessary human encephalisation (brain-growth) appears to have been taking place for two million years, this process probably began an awfully long time ago, and (under my unproven scenario) has likely now entered the genetic code. Thus we have ended up with one part of us (probably the frontal cortex) which tells us God is a fairy tale, and various other parts lovingly installed over eons by evolution, which tell us in so many very compelling ways that God is real. Forum 7 appears to be a cortex-driven enterprise locked in fatal embrace with premie-world, which is fuelled by the various pre-logical parts of the brain. The above, if all true, does add strength to my belief that Maharaji is sincere in his beliefs about who he is. At least so far as all these pre-logical parts of his brain are concerned, anyway: what his cortex is telling him is a different matter. It would be reasonable to assume that someone in his position might - for example - drink heavily, to keep those whispers from the cortex inaudible. Or - when the whispers come in from outside sources - to have developed a “furious anger” defence. When a Brisbane newspaper article in 1997 suggested he was rich at the expense of his devotees, for example, he furously blamed the PR team for the article appearing. They should have somehow “stopped it”. I’d observe by way of a postscript that Maharaji’s rational side - consistency, logic, objectivity, judgement, accountablity - is rather weak. This may explain a lot about the last 30 years, when you think about it. John

Subject: Re: What IS spiritual/God & evolution/M's psyche From: Dep =) To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 00:41:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John you said, Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. But our problem is that since the Middle Ages we have crossed the Rubicon into a rational worldview, and we can’t ever cross back again. To do so exposes one to “archaism” (childishly returning to old values), which is IMO even more damaging to the psyche than, say, atheism. Didn't the Greeks and Romans have a rational world view? Wasn't Christianity a reaction to the sterility and stultification of the rational mind? Read Saint Augustine.

Subject: Our Father who art in Heaven From: Lesley To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hallowed be thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. M'Lud, I rest my case. Seriously, John, I am not really ready to argue the case, the idea, as I presented it in response to your previous thread was fresh off the press for me, and I have not really come to grips with it yet. One thing I will say, though, is don't be too quick to dismiss it. You argue that there are all these amazing qualities that go along with the 'god experience', that are not associated with the qualities of the parental bond. I'm not so sure. Firstly, I am suggesting the parents, not just the father. Next time you see a baby being breastfed, try telling yourself that that baby is not having a blissful numinous experience that strikes to the core of it's being. I passionately agree with Jim that entertaining the construct of a 'spiritual existence' steals all the best stuff out of life, out of your day to day relationships. It is my biggest beef with god. You love god at the expense of everyone else in your life, those very special qualities we have, that really we need in our interactions with eachother to help get through life, become reserved for our interactions with 'god'. Bah, humbug! I read somewhere that the development of the cortex meant that human beings were able to ask the question 'what if'. And this has given us a huge survival advantage, (not to mention the ability to procreate to plague proportions, as we answered the question what if there is a bad season.) As you ask the question what if I get hurt, it seems, overall, that the qualities of commonsense and courage are required. Along with the ability to pose the question, as you stand poised at the edge of the cliff, what if I am wrong, and strapping feathers to my arms will not make me capable of flight, leading to a more careful selection of place to make the jump. Along with such foresight, inevitably we have faced the understanding that pain, loss and death are in our future, a fearful prescience indeed, and obviously we have been thinking about it a lot, testing just how inevitable it really is, what we can do to ameliorate our circumstances, and just generally trying to wrap our laughing gear around such a weighty and sad dint to our natural ebullience and zest for living. But does this add up to gaining a hard wired need for god, what do you mean by god getting into the human genome, John? I accept that having an ability to absorb and live by the beliefs that prevail in the society you are born into will increase your chances of survival, and hence procreation, but I really wasn't born with a God, just a couple of parents, a couple of brothers, a dog and a cat who sometimes had kittens. Spose he could have been lurking in an untold gene, just waiting his moment to unfold, but what a horrid thought, John, eeek, go wash your mouth out with soap, go play with a sabre toothed tiger........or tell me more, lol!

Subject: Bless you, Lesley From: John Macgregor To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:33:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley said: 'You argue that there are all these amazing qualities that go along with the 'god experience', that are not associated with the qualities of the parental bond. I'm not so sure. Firstly, I am suggesting the parents, not just the father. Next time you see a baby being breastfed, try telling yourself that that baby is not having a blissful numinous experience that strikes to the core of it's being. ' You're right of course - and it may well be true of 'timelessness', 'boundlessnes' and the rest of the ‘spiritual complex’. Okay, so assuming for a moment that these are not different qualities: I think the fact that these qualities are so revivable in adulthood - and so endlessly revived in adulthood, by perhaps most of the world's population - suggests they serve some evolutionary function for adults. I mean, all of today's hunter-gatherer tribes, so far as I know, have religious beliefs and experiences. (Just about the same thing IMO.) 'I passionately agree with Jim that entertaining the construct of a 'spiritual existence' steals all the best stuff out of life, out of your day to day relationships. It is my biggest beef with god. You love god at the expense of everyone else in your life, those very special qualities we have, that really we need in our interactions with each other to help get through life, become reserved for our interactions with 'god'. Bah, humbug!' Yes, that's my feeling too. It's analogous to the 'heart-mind split' you often complain of M engendering. It may even be the most ghastly of all the things that the cult did to us - which is saying something. Certainly I feel that for me. The joy of rejoining the world has been the best thing of all for me these last 18 months. Not just no longer feeling like a freak, but entering into relationships with things knowing they are real, not 'maya' - and not wondering when they are going to disappoint me. What a crock we were sold - and it was ideal for reinforcing the power of the one who could save us from the illusion - an illusion which turned out to be an illusion, if you get my drift. Anyway, I was abstracting 'spirit' off from 'the world' purely to try and draw attention to the specific neuro experiences I spoke of - experiences which have usually been thought of as 'spiritual'. But seing as you mention it, I’d guess that in evolutionary situations these qualities may have been much better integrated with 'worldly' ones (no split) - just as I suspect that in our brains they are far better integrated with banal, everyday consciousness than we who have been brainwashed by the idiocies of Indian mysticism - higher self, lower self, and all that claptrap - would have realised till recently. The whole Indian ethos which generated Maharaji is a horror, if you ask me: that spirit/world split is highly damaging to all but the priestly and guru castes. 'But does this add up to gaining a hard wired need for god, what do you mean by god getting into the human genome, John? 'I accept that having an ability to absorb and live by the beliefs that prevail in the society you are born into will increase your chances of survival, and hence procreation, but I really wasn't born with a God, just a couple of parents, a couple of brothers, a dog and a cat who sometimes had kittens. ' Well, yes, except that our generation was an historical first (tho as DD mentioned somewhere, you could partly except the ancient Greeks in their brief rationalist period). What I’m saying is that most people most of the time have had gods, and this appears to go back 3-400,000 years. That is possibly enough for a predisposition for religious experience to enter the genetic code. Certainly today, despite the advances of science, the spread of education, the popularity of Richard Dawkins, and all the rest, the vast majority of people even in liberal democracies like the US and Australia believe in the spirit in the sky. (90%+ isn't it?) We, too - as you suggest - jumped feet-first into being god-lovers approximately 37 minutes after we'd broken free from our parents. And look at how God bounced back in Russia five minutes after godless communism fell. So my belief is not so much that we adopt the beliefs of our parents (theist or atheist) - tho obviously this plays a role. I’d go further and suggest we may have a specific predisposition to God - not just the father aspect, but the whole complex most likely. I think there's some evolutionary evidence for this (the meaning derived from religion seems to be adaptive; religious worship seems to go back 3-400,000 years), and also some proximate evidence (most of the world's popuation, educated or otherwise, stubbornly, intractably believe in God). Best, John

Subject: Straw man? From: Jim To: John Macgregr Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 22:50:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. Interesting post, John. One thing, though. I don't buy this dichotomy of some hyper-rational, scientifically materialistic existence set off against something called 'spirit'. I think that's bogus. It conjurs some flat, cartoon image of a square, poindexterish distopia where no one can dance and the root beer's always flat. Then it sets this off against some vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses. The contrast is useful for shampoo ads -- shoot the first part in black and white -- but doesn't really reflect the real world. Instead, it's a sop to this vague notion of 'spirit' which really doesn't mean anything on its own and has to rob the real world of all sorts of wonderful, human qualities to even pretend it does. Really, what is 'spirit' and how in the world could either science or rationality ruin it?

Subject: Re: Straw man? OH MY GOD!!!! From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 08:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I agree with DD that “spirit” is a very fulfilling thing, and the modern world of science, rationality and material comfort (for some anyway) doesn’t have enough of that fulfilment. Interesting post, John. One thing, though. I don't buy this dichotomy of some hyper-rational, scientifically materialistic existence set off against something called 'spirit'. I think that's bogus. It conjurs some flat, cartoon image of a square, poindexterish distopia where no one can dance and the root beer's always flat. Then it sets this off against some vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses. The contrast is useful for shampoo ads -- shoot the first part in black and white -- but doesn't really reflect the real world. Instead, it's a sop to this vague notion of 'spirit' which really doesn't mean anything on its own and has to rob the real world of all sorts of wonderful, human qualities to even pretend it does. Really, what is 'spirit' and how in the world could either science or rationality ruin it? --- I'm amazed, stupefied, dumbfounded, astounded, flabbergasted, shocked, staggered. Here is a man who spent 8 years in an ashram meditating two hours a day and he thinks that spirituality has something to do with nice pictures . . . pictures of waterfalls, love birds, and butterflys, no less. . . with presumably some sort of droning synthesizer music in the background. Amazing! He associates spirituality with mental movies from a shampoo commercial! Well at least we know what Jim was doing under his meditation blanket all those years. He was picturing beautiful scenes and humming a pleasant tune. I give up! =)

Subject: Yes, Dog, Knowledge is real -- of course From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 12:22:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said above, you are completely lost when it comes to understanding anything about how the mind can be fooled into thinking that these little sensory deprivation tricks constitute any sort of deep, profound experience of 'spiritual truth'. Your sarcasm just reveals how oblivious you are to the issue, even. You are quite something, Dog. You never understood at all what being a premie was and, now that you say you aren't one, you can't get the stuff off you.

Subject: Re: what is spirit? From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:18:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is perhaps more cogent to talk about what spirit 'does' than what spirit 'is'..you know the thing about scientists analysing light; is it a wave or a particle?; well.... set up the test for a wave and , yep,light is a wave; set up the test for a particle and lo and behold it's that too! so light is both a particle and a wave ,and neither (d'oh!): could we just say 'light illuminates', because that what it does for us, and leave it at that; the words 'inspire, aspire' etc share the same root as spirit, and that gives us a clue as to the role of 'spirit ' in human experience, historically. When a set of principles is attatched to the 'attunement' to spirit, there is the inevitable danger that these principles created in time and space will be difficult to cleave from the psyche as time moves us on, possibly causing anxiety and distress ; does any body rub wooden sticks together when they can throw a light switch? But in both parallels, there is a moment when there is no light (or fire), and then there is light;there is no spirit, then there is spirit, the body is inert, then life enters the body; and attempting to unravel that mystery can lead to incredible visionary breakthru's, realisations, but it can also drive you nuts.

Subject: Ask Pat D...he likes a tipple or two:) [nt] From: Dermot To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:30:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Rubbing sticks together? From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 14:30:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did someone mention rubbing wooden sticks together to make light? Interesting thread but I couldn't resist sharing this cartoon again. Why Stick People Are Extinct. www.teamhouse.tni.net/stickpeople1.html

Subject: Man of Heaven, man of dust From: John Macgregor To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:41:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I presume you know I was using 'spirit' as shorthand for 'the neurological effects which pre-scientific humans took to be spirit'. I don't have evidence that there's an actual etherial entity called spirit. I accept that the real, rational and scientific world is a joy to behold, and it's more or less enough for me most of the time. However by my theory we may also be primed by evolution for that irrational set of experiences known as 'spirit' (or 'Knowledge' by premies) - experiences which tell us, untruthfully indeed, that there is more to the world than we see and perceive with our cortex. That our consciousness stretches beyond the Earth, our life does not end with death, we are linked by a universal force - and all manner of literally fabulous illusions. I accept that the dichotomy I have set up is unreal, inasmuch as rational and irrational effects are very intertwined, both in our brains and our lives. As I think you're pointing out, 'spirit' is not the opposite of 'the world' - except when you abstract both qualities out artifically. And world without spirit is hardly hellish - indeed the colours are brighter and the birds sound chirpier to me post-cult than in-cult. But that may be because the cult was made so dysfunctional because of Maharaji's abuses, callousness and blindness. The actual set of neurological experiences that propelled us into the place many years ago may have been quite ancient ones, and quite natural to our species. Indeed when you think about it, why else would meditation, chanting, worship, ritual, et al produce peace or bliss, other than if such experiences had been installed by evolution? I know there are other potential answers, but surely the answer that such 'spiritual' experiences are inherently human is the most logical candidate? If something - like hunger, sex drive or bliss-potential - simply exists, and is ubiquitous among humans, I always start thinking along Darwinian lines. I'm sure that some proportion of these experiences - maybe a large proportion - can be accessed through riding Triumph motorcycles or playing guitar. But I do nevertheless conjecture that most of them arose because of the existential crisis an expanding cortex thrust upon us. Best, John PS' What's a 'poindexterish distopia', exactly? I liked the 'vague image of waterfalls, love birds, vision-quests and hugs and kisses'. I think you should mail the concept to Visions.

Subject: Re: Man of Heaven, man of dust From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 04:30:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I read stuff like this I realize that no one can say that their time in the cult was completely wasted. It was an interesting cult once upon a time and attracted the most interesting people. Those people can now analyze and record their cult experiences and share their knowledge (the real thing) with the rest of the human race. I think we're still doing what we thought Rawat and all of us were doing 30 years ago - bringing knowledge to the world - knowledge that may actaully do some real good. At the very least parts of the ex-premie archives will be required reading one day for students of eastern mysticism. The pen is mightier than the sword (it's effects are longer lasting)and the pen in this case is the deconstruction of Maharajism. The sword of course is - oh well, for instance - smearing Rawat in a tabloid. And I think you know what I mean, John.

Subject: identity crisis From: WPC Girl To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:51:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh! shit, they've rumbled me and my several identities. It's being back in the world of duality and that crazy mind, I don't know who I am any more. Just joking. Not sure how you can tell I use a Mac I don't even know what this one is. Be Happy , love from ex wpc. ps are there any others out there who followed the superior path of 24 hour service rather than contemplating their navels, oops sorry I mean light. ex WPC

Subject: Robbie Williams and the church From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:22:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well after reading how Robbie Williams became a priest in two days on the internet, I wondered how copyright laws apply to charities and priests, like using Elan Vital and Maharajji as names to flood the internet with, under different church and personal name variations. Any legal beagles who could give us the lowdown?

Subject: Rev Elan Vital From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:23:05 (EST) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Hamzen, Rawat and the Churchladies could be the band. Send me an Email about the remix idea if you have a mo. The files are packed and ready. All the best The Very Rev Dr S Strange

Subject: Father Strangely Strange ... From: cq To: Tim G Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:45:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Father Strangely Strange ... ... forgive me, for today I have not sinned. (can your wages take the downturn in demand?)

Subject: the hardest question(OT) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:19:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Xena: 'Well cq, do you want a big prick or a little one?' www.dur.ac.uk/c.q.giles/cq_xena.jpg

Subject: Go for the jugular,cq From: Lesley To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:18:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and ask for a big one! Now, don't mess with my mind, cq, is this a real darshan opportunity, or a, um, clever photograph?

Subject: Re: Go for the jugular,cq From: cq To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 07:56:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: darshan? - oh, you mean was she the real Xena? Hmmmm, I thought so at the time, 'til we bumped into Marilyn Monroe and Groucho Marx in Finnegan's bar around the corner. Ah, Universal Studios, Florida '99 - what a holiday that was! Happy memories ....

Subject: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:30:39 (EST) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: I can't believe how much the cult has changed. Geez, I don't read for a few weeks and presto--another cog in the Lard's wheel is gone! What gives? Is Rawat on his last legs? Look at what's gone: 1. No more trinket sales. 2. No community get-togethers to focus on the Lard. Now you could just subscribe to the broadcast and pretend you watched to be a member in good standing. 3. No more knowledge chairs. 4. No more Maharaji.com for people who don't have an up-to-date computer with 5.0. 5. In fact, not much of anything that would attract new blood (or keep the dinosaurs for that matter). What do you guys think? Another year at the most?

Subject: 'Cause it has sure gotten boring From: Good question To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:43:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know what you mean...same old stuff rehashed over and over again. People seem to be stuck in outdated, cyclical, static traps. Meaningless, petty power trips. Deviations in thought and attitude are mocked. Megawatts of intelligence and energy are wasted on odd, tribal rituals that only make other people feel marginalized or outcast. Extensive lingo and members-only jokes. Membership growing at the rate of about 2.8 people per month, worldwide. Lots of infighting, with people leaving in a huff. Grandstanding galore. Obsessive types, reciting old quotations and starting to feel portions of their real-world lives slip away. Expressions of feelings, perceptions and experiences inconsistent with the consensus reality of the group are barely tolerated or showered with abuse. Loss of long-time friends and loved ones, who all-of-a-sudden seem very different then they were for many years. Lots of self-congratulations on one's superior outlook & discrimination. People going downright nutty from the thinly-veiled nastiness, steel-reinforced me-tooism and claustrophobia. Highly selective memory usage with large gaps and revisions. Tell-tale symptoms all. Yep. I don't know how long this place will last.

Subject: The only people who get bored are bores but.... From: PatC To: Good question Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:19:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you post was still most enjoyable and funny. Thanks.

Subject: Ooooo, you sure put us in our place From: Joe To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:36:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can we possibly go on? I mean, with people here, acting like....people, who disagree and stuff, it can't last long. Cute. Loved this comment: Highly selective memory usage with large gaps and revisions. Why is it the Maharaji cult members say this kind of stuff, but are never, ever, able to point to anything anybody says here about Maharaji and his cult that are incorrect? Face it, whoever you are, you can't do it because there is no defense for what your cultleader has done over the years. Pity he doesn't have the integrity to defend himself, and leaves you guys to having to write sarcastic put downs because you don't have anything else to say that is actually on point. It is a pity, and it must be very frustrating for you.

Subject: is that it then? From: Bryn To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:23:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear'good question', Are you an insider? Can an insider answer my wonderings? What do 'pwks' 'do' now? Are there still versions of 'festivals' or 'programs'? Do people get a version of 'knowlege'? Is there still a 'master'? An 'experience?' is there anything? Do people do 'propagation' still? If so what sort of 'concepts' are put before ' aspirants'? What must a current premie believe in? Is the exceptional status of Mr Rawat of LA in the mix somewhere still? How? What about 'this world' and 'non-premies' how is one supposed to bring oneself into relationship with all that as a second phase PWSK. What does Mr. Rawat claim to be offering or hinting at these days? What is 'that connection' supposed to be these days? Is some amazing counter-blast being planned? Is he re-grouping for the big offensive? What is going on in premieland? It just looks like Mr.Rawat is retiring himself on full pay to me, despite his promise not to. Love Bryn

Subject: strategies for the corpulent one From: la-ex To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:03:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think m will go down easy...too much face to save, too many donations to still depend on, too many tough questions for both the reverend and the premies to ponder if he completely gives up....no,no,no....much easier just to 'downsize, reorganize and re-invent' and stay in the game, at least for now... I believe we will now see the advent of the new, improved 'Maharaji Lite' for the new millenium.... (However, the really important question for the new 'maharaji lite' program will be; Does it: 1-Taste great, or 2-Is it less filling?) Only time will tell on the answer to that one.(I'm betting on 'less filling', myself...) However, I think that his rotundity will probably take a few new tacks like this; 1-Streamline, streamline, streamline.... 2-Get fancier technology, digitally based ways to 'spread the word' about maharaji and 'his message'....maybe a few people will trickle in, hopefully to offset the hordes taking one step back or silently leaving.. 3-Destroy all remnants of the 'old days',make fun of the old days if you have to, blame any of the embarrassing stuff, and the out and out lies, on premies, holy family members, mahatmas, indian premies, and stupid premie/hippie 70's concepts.....(of course, m did nothing wrong, as usual...) 4-Label critics as 'hate club members', epo as a 'hate site'.... 5-Cover your own ass and your family. Everyone else can fend for themselves. 6-Go into 'semi-retirement', because as shri raja said, maharaji has never done anything for himself before. It's now time to do a few things for himself, isn't it? After all, world peace could have already happened if those stupid 70's hippie premies hadn't screwed it up, right? So, fatso will 'semi-retire', and will occssionally give a lecture in different communities around the globe, sort of a 'pro bono' thing he does on the side for non profit charities like elan vital... This will ensure that he doesn't get too rusty in the 'rambling boring monologue department', the Gulfstream stays well oiled and ready to go, and premies will keep up the longing, not to mention the donations.... On the practical side, don't we all need to be reminded to breathe and be greatful to be able to feel the gratitude of feeling gratitude? Surely a few hundred bucks a year and an annual pilgrimage to some city to hear 45 minutes of new age fluff is not too great a price to pay, is it? Think about it...what would happen to you if you DIDN'T breathe? Isn't this a small price to pay for these valuable 'instructions for life', and to get a 'tune up' twice yearly? OK, back to strategies...sorry... 7-Keep amaroo at all costs.... He can have one big bash each year...if he can make a thousand bucks off each premie,between admissions, tent sites, food, donations, darshan etc., he makes a million dollars for every thousand suckers, er, premies, that attend. He also makes money off of hotels, which give a special 'elan vital rate', which is actually a Markup! (too funny, isn't it?) Besides one big bash per year, he can have one or two 'special' meetings each year, for 'special people', probably to the tune of $5,000 each....let's see, that's one million bucks for every 200 special attendees, isn't it? So, amaroo is not going anywhere, especially when it costs half a million/year for overhead, right? 5,000 premies at one big festival=5 million bucks... 400 'special attendees'=2 million bucks (maybe 4 million, if twice/year) Plus, amaroo is a good place to chill out and make more new age elevator music and videos of clocks,birds and thousands of indian peoples feet as they pilgrimage to get darshan.... 8-Keep India also, even if it doesn't bring in big bucks,.... it's good for keeping up the unofficial 'lordhsip' there, with darshan, hash laced drinks and a general good time for all....keeps up maharaji's moral, lessens the need for other speaking engagements, unless needed to raise some quick cash....got to get that regular 'devotion high'.....remember, it's all for him, but it's packaged as something for you...and if you don't do it, who knows what the 'mind' might do to you?....oh no, let's play it safe and not rock the boat with those wierd ideas.... 9-The yacht? May have to go, unless First mate John Miller can bring in a few 'big donors' to keep it alive, and also to keep up 'first world prachar' in Long Island Sound, Miami Beach, and the poor Malibu diaspora who have to live in delapidated shacks along the malibu coast.... OK, John, keep those dontions coming in if you want to see rich man propagation happen and also get a seat at the table on the good ship maharaji, even if it is sinking...(Question: Would maharaji,as a good captain, 'go down with the ship', or would he get on the first life boat with Monica and head for dry land?....) 10-Go corporate, get in that CEO magazine with some sort of bizarre interview that skirts all past things and responsibilities, and keep on developing that new persona....every little bit helps with this tricky business of world peace.....

Subject: Re: strategies for the corpulent one From: Pullaver To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 22:16:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Enjoyed your post la-ex. Here's a chicken or egg question for you. Does Captain Rawat have the most expensive corporate jet money can buy in order to fly himself to programs, or does he continue to do programs so he can continue to fly the most expensive corporate jet money can buy? Also, can you doubt for one moment that M has thought long and hard about how he can squeeze the maximum profit from his shows? Perhaps the big attraction about Amaroo for Maha and why he was always so keen on getting his own piece of land for programs was that it held the potential to be the total cash register. The tent city was only meant to be a temporary situation until he could build permanent motel-like structures and really rake in the dosh for VIP 'darshan' suites, room-service, mini-bar and the like. So instead of premies' cash going into various local economies as tourist dollars it would all flow to him. Travel agency cut, food, drink, registration, accomodation and salvation - the complete package. It now appears that the Marji Motel won't get built after-all. Or if it does it will happen in time for a pwk retirement residence - where the diehards go to be fleeced to kingdom come.

Subject: Great Post. Re CEO Magazine: From: OTS To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 14:43:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MY GUESS: I was thinking that the CEO Magazine article will tout his many successful 'side' businesses (book-buying AMTEXT, etc.) and what a great CEO Mr. Rawat has become, what with his 8th grade education. It will also tout his aviation skills, which are amazing, I'll give him that. It might mention his guru bidness, which is now just a new age seminar thing like the rest of the whole crappy genre. He will use the article to announce to the premies that the show is over. That he's now just another new age seminar speaker and have a nice day. It'll talk about his early retirement from the guru bidness, but his ever growing strength as an American businessman CEO extraordinare. What a guy! I could just kiss his .......

Subject: Business Skills/Piloting From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:44:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, OTS, Maharaji may be a competent pilot, but that's because you and I paid for it. Very few people can afford to have a fulltime pilot instructor on staff to train him in piloting (paid for by his devotees) for years and years doing whatever it took to get Maharaji his license. Plus, he had access to expensive aircraft (also paid for by the premies) to get flying time and practice, and he was able to take as much time as necessary to learn to fly, because he is supported in luxury (also paid for by this devotees), and didn't need to have a real job, unlike other people who become pilots. Plus, he sets his own schedule and does exactly what he wants. In that kind of situation, anybody who couldn't be a good pilot would have to be an idiot. I would be surprised if he took credit for Amtext of any of the other cult businesses, because they only happened and survived because of ashram slave labor in the beginning, and rabid devotion later on, and not because of M's management skills, which I have seen no evidence he has. Plus, there are those around who claim Amtext was STOLEN by the cult from another person. Maharaji might want to avoid somebody pointing out those kinds of details.

Subject: CEO Magazine: From: Crispy To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:24:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, #10 on La-Ex's list - Mj doing an interview for a leading business CEO magazine - this really grabbed my curiosity, too Why, after over 20 years of avoiding media interviews like the plague, would he all of a sudden chose a leading BUSINESS magazine as his target audience? Surely its readers would be more interested in ways to EARN money for their own businesses than in what guru to DONATE to? Maybe Mj is hoping he'll catch some rich recruits with more cash to donate? good luck to him.... He's up against assumingly intelligent managers who would research him first, i.e. an internet search: Maharaji Knowledge .... that's all it would take to turn their stomachs I will be VERY interested to read his article and see what response it gets....

Subject: Very witty, but this is just a forum From: JHB To: Good question Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 06:17:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is just a place where people can talk about the Maharaji cult. The vast majority of people who have left the cult are getting on with their lives, which I applaud. I for one don't particularly care if ex-premies post here or not as long as the information to help them become ex-premies is available. John.

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Anandaji To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 03:01:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There can only be one logical outcome. Already plenty of signs: the garage sale of videos, etc., the shutting down of local video halls, the pitiful attempts at revivalist web sites. As we type, I would guess he is deciding, if he hasn't decided already, into which hole he will silently slither with his cookie jar. The biggest problem for him will be how he can do this without giving up his toys, which ultimately he will have to do. Perhaps he will settle upon some island with a little Cessna and a dingy with a sari sail. He will wile away his days masturbating in solitude to euphoric recalls of the good ole days. Alas, his loneliness will become unbearable and he will make a feeble attempt at philosophy. He will share it with other lizards on the beach. Like his own, their eyes will bulge and twitch. Pray tell: What other outcome could there be?

Subject: LOL Ananda Ji!!! From: Richard To: Anandaji Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:59:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: Ulf To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:58:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, for the die hard premies , this makes completly sense . they understand all this , like a big step forward This even makes m , more powerfull. in these peoples outlook. Just talked to a premie friend , 30 years in the cult, he was very happy that elan vital was closed . most premies hate each other , now there is no reason to come togheter about anything, nobody can doubt your motivation Now ,finally,, it is only me , and m ,, nobody,,at all,, in betwin Scary , scary ,, scary .... m has finally , made the premies completly isolated just waiting the word of the master.........

Subject: Re: How much longer will the cult survive? From: OTS To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is serious shit for cult members, the ones who’ve been around a long long time. Since leaving the ashram and divinginto money-making careers for the past 20 years, they’ve been even more closely embraced by M and his minions. These sincere souls are confused now. What is happening? Money talks; Devotion walks (to the back of the hall) has been the Yorem cult’s message for the past few years. Yes, the cult is wobbling on its last legs in the West, it seems. This is serious for the many really really devoted ones. They are no longer being given attention based on the amount of their donations. And they're feeling it so much that they are beginning to rethink the entire fucking trip. There is no longer a disgusting “Resource Team” (Major Donor Program) with their own special events and darshan lines (Amaroo September 1999 and 2000; Arizona September 2001 -- $5,000 minimum donation for each event per person). M apparently was embarrassed by the darshan-for-sale / sort of prostitution racket carried out during the past few years. He’s had it with the special benefits for the rich. No more seats up front. No more special meetings and phone conference calls for the big givers. No more wine and cheese parties where they try and recruit new rich premies to become part of the “Team” (Resource Team). No more special silent auction gatherings by the local Teams with wine and cheese to raise yet more funds for M. For What? After 30 years more is now urgently needed? Again??????????? What is he going to do with the money? [Don't ask.] Of course, since we’re in the yearly December - March period where M goes on vacation and does no events, sees no one, talks with no one, nothing is happening. I guess everyone is just guessing what’s next. No more videos, video events -- broadcasts only. No more hotel programs, instructors, initiators, mahatmas, saints, favored ones. How will the money change hands? I think he’ll live off his already donated business interests and a few close very rich patrons. But how will they be able to keep up on the yearly rental payments and maintenance fees for the Gruman Gulfstream V airplane [the world’s number one executive jet] that M needs to carry him and his family around the world to do his work (bringing in new people). It’s his only reason for being -- to fly around world in luxury, staying at his many homes or other first class accommodations. His number of followers is dwindling. The end game is in sight. He’s fulfilled his agya, and can now retire, in his humble opinion. Good. Enjoy doing nothing for the rest of your life, like you did for the first 40 years, but this time on the interest on the donations and business donations rather than just on our direct dime. Thanks. Syanora.

Subject: I won't be afraid From: Blind Faith To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 08:34:39 (EST) Email Address: none Message: I have dream in my heart, all are go away from Maharaji and that this then is my great time for to show my deep devotion and friendship to him. I not care when all leave the ship I will stay with my captain of the heart. Then I will have chance to be close with him. No no I won't be afraid just as long as I stand by him. That is the promise I once and everyday give. love you all!

Subject: The boy stood on the burning deck From: cq To: Blind Faith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:15:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The boy stood on the burning deck Whence all but he had fled. Twit. (c) Spike Milligan. Eternal Father, strong to save, Whose arm hath bound the restless wave, Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep Its own appointed limits keep; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea! William Whiting, 1860

Subject:  I fixed the last line From:   To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:04:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There once was a guru from Hardwar Well stocked was his bar and his larder He longed to go fishin' and Monica kissin' Last call for Darshan and Prachar, har.

Subject: No, there's a beat missing  From: cq To:   Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:38:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love a good limerick. And that was almost there, but for the missing syllable at the end. Now, magnanamous muse of the inter/ether/either/or net ... feets don't fail me now. This is live. And spontaneous. The Lord of the Universe said If you don't kiss my feet you'll be dead The premies all prayed, And then they obeyed, but he was talking to Monica instead. Boom boom.

Subject: Stand by Him, but downwind From: OTS To: Blind Faith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (by Ben E. King) When the night has come And the land is dark, And the moon is the only light we'll see. No I won't be afraid, Oh I won't be afraid, Just as long as you stand, stand by me So darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Oh stand, stand by me, stand by me. If the sky that we look upon Should tumble and fall, Or the mountain should crumble to the sea. I won't cry, I won't cry, No I won't shed a tear, Just as long as you stand, stand by me. And darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Whoa stand now, stand by me, stand by me. Darlin' darlin' stand by me, Oh stand by me, Oh stand now, stand by me, stand by me. Whenever you're in trouble just stand by me, Oh stand by me, Whoa stand now, oh stand, stand by me. PLEASE GET A LIFE and some glasses

Subject: Stand by Him post above has text From: Richard To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:20:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the lyrics OTS. It's truly great to be reminded that I have real friends, family and lover that do stand by me and I stand by them. As for Blind Faith's post, I assumed it was parody and not a real PWK. I could be wrong.

Subject: Maharaji has sucked everyone dry. From: Tonette To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:23:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, donations have been falling steadily for the past few years. In fact, the amount of time and effort and money it takes to feed these devoted and donating premies is more than what I receive. Therefore, I have fulfilled my end of the bargain (and am filthy rich to boot) so I don't need to do anymore of this shit. I'm walking away, closing the non-money making agendas. Sure I'll need to have a program or two for an influx of cash but for the most part I'm walking away. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, in other words, the few programs I'll have will be worth millions to me. I'll see to that. Unless of course something nasty happens with the Jagedo affair. Look at what is happening with the Catholic church. Even more reason for me to disappear into the woodwork. Have a nice day, SUCKERS!

Subject: Sounds right to me From: Joe To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He definitely seems headed to retirement of some sort, although I think he will try to move heaven and earth to keep the Gulfstream, which is more of a fancy toy to him (and status symbol). If it was just about transportation to 'events,' he could do it quite comfortably in a much, much more economical (and environmentally friendly) way if he wanted to. I think he really sees his image as a 'successful businessman' and a 'successful religious/humanitarian leader' who needs the status symbols of success, like the jet, to keep his image up. I don't know what magazine his interview is about to appear, but according to Yoram Weiss, it's one that goes to CEOs. So, that kind of fits the image that I think M has of himself as well. I wouldn't be so sure that the 'Major Donor Program' is really gone. I mean, it was a PR disaster for M, and it's been the fodder of a lot of criticism of him on EPO and the Forum, so he might get rid of the official program and keep the various strings to get big donations and offer other kinds of perks that aren't so obvious. I think if there is anything consistent about Maharaji, it's that if he thinks he needs money, he will milk the premies in just about any way he can, from overcharging to sleep in a tent, charging $20 for a $1 video, charging the premies for 'propagation kits,' making god knows what off some kind of 'satellite system' which is mostly just playing videos over broadcast system, etc. [Not to mention selling clothing, jewelry and tea cups, etc.] Maybe he is set financially, but the Gulfstream will drain his money unless he keeps a funnel of cash from the premies. So would Amaroo I would imagine.

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:55:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: joe, i agree with all you have said...amaroo is not on his dime, and he puts noting into it from his personal money, so it does not drain him personally. he has such fear around security (hence control) that he never wants to touch his personal money and personal resources...rather to always have some external stucture to get what he wants. no matter how large his personal fortune is, he will always see it as not enough.

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: michael donner Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:27:10 (EST) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: I spoke to one of my ex lovers recently about amaroo (she lives in Australia and still does service at the place) She said that it was owned by a company from the Channel Isles . This is what she said anyway “ The land content of amaroo is owned by a company based in Jersey UK (Myrine Investments) The company then lease the land to elan vital in australia for 99 years. Elan vital owns the company ivory’s rock conference center and has given the company the rights to run and develop the property. Elan vital raises millions of dollars in loans from its members to develop the place via ivory’s rock conference center. If elan vital goes belly up the there is no liability to Myrine Investments as it has simply leased the land . It would walk away with a property that could be easily developed into a residential development or housing estate” She also said that his guruness was not directly linked to Myrine Investments but controlled it at arms length. MoM

Subject: Re: Sounds right to me From: Moll of Mole To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 02:33:05 (EST) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: test only

Subject: 'Personal money'? Oh, right. From: Carl To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:29:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, as though he had worked for it, or even inherited it. Who remembers Phil Silvers as Sargeant Bilko? I couldn't help thinking of the verb 'to bilk'. Now he has a sweet nest egg generating beaucoup interest, yes? He and his issue are set for life: Grabbed the golden ring, an American dream story. Daddy done good. I wonder if there'll be an Enron-like implosion when his house of smartcards starts to collapse. Stay tuned.

Subject: 'You'll Never Get Rich' [nt] From: Private Duane Doberman To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:59:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Did PRem Rawat inherit big money? From: gerry To: Carl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:34:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Premies sometimes claim RawRat's wealth is the result of a large family inheritance and his subsequent investment and business skills. Other believers also say he came to the West with $20 in his pocket. I wonder if he really did inherit any money. Does anyone know the real story?

Subject: Just speculating, but From: Carl To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:57:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the family already had several land holdings and a number of ashrams around India: Dehra Dun (private home), Satlok, Prem Nagar, Punjabi Bagh, places mainly in the north. But there were centers in most of the main cities, at least by the late 60s, I believe. They had been collecting funds, rupee by dedicated rupee, for years under Shri Hans's stewardship. But the story was told that they always ran a shoestring operation because of all the festivals and other propogation=related activities that they were involved in, which included the acquisition of land and the building of ashrams. Still, in rupee terms, they were among the very well-to-do in India, sending the kiddies to private schools, owning cars, traveling by airplane, and so on. This in a country with a huge, unfathomably abysmal poverty-stricken population. But compared to what could be gleaned in the western currencies, it couldn't have been that much . . . certainly not the staggering opulence and waste that it soon became. For getting fabulously rich, he certainly worked the system cleverly. I almost said brilliantly. But the story ain't over. History loves a scoundrel.

Subject: Amaroo/Money/Enough From: Joe To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:42:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right. If you just look at it objectively, his own personal money has always been his numero uno priority, despite the bizarre comments by Ron Geaves to the contrary in the Passages Video. He has never gotten anything together propagation-wise, and is still basically an unknown, but he somehow has planes, residences and tons of money for himself. It's clear what the priority is. And that quote on EPO about needed millions to protect millions you already have, and how hard that is, was so telling, indicating what you said about never having enough. I wondered if Amaroo, due to its isolation, might be seen by M as a place of safety and retreat, and a place where he can 'play God' like have darshan lines, etc., without anybody but the die-hard premies knowing about it. I can't see him getting away with that in the States without some publicity, and 'security' will always be a problem for him in regular venues. Donner, did you ever talk much with Maharaji about money and the need to raise it? If so, what were those discussions like?

Subject: Re: How much longer e cult survive? From: WPC Girl To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:22:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subliminal Arti Will I stop breaking into little verses of arti when that happens? Just yesterday as I was spreading compost on the Barlotti bean bed I found myself singing away, about my saviour. It bothers me because last year the crop suffered after high winds and I don't want to find this years crop doing pranam to the Basil plants. Hope it's soon Gail, and have a good time whichever way it goes love etc. WPC Girl

Subject: Another 'knowledge' reveales online From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:18:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Heritage Society Presents... BRAHAM PRAKAASH (SELECTED VERSES ONLY), BY PEER SHAMSH It's all there .....

Subject: Re: Another 'knowledge' reveales online From: Opie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:15:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [The 'BOL' given by the Satguru has a pronounciable sound which eventually becomes 'non- pronounciable'. It develops into 'Divine sound vibrations' and becomes 'Ajampia Jaap'(non pronounciable word) as said by Peer Sadardeen in some other geenaan. After three months of constant practice, the 'BOL' develops into a 'Divine Sound' or 'Primordial Sound'. This primordial sound existed long ago before the invention of any language and could only be communicated to people by Haazar Imaam and through Him by His appointed successor. According to most religions, long before the creation, there was only 'Primordial Light' and from the light came the 'Word' and the 'Word' was 'God'. After three months of constant practice, one does realise the significance of the 'BOL', as explained by Peer below.] JM, incredible - thanks for that link. I see that it only takes 3-months to realise BOL using their methods. I wished I had known this before, would have saved me countless wasted years. 'BOL' = the word of GOD or, perhaps, Bullshit-on-Line :) Opie

Subject: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:39:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Songs of gratitude I would like to express my deepest thanks to you, Maharaji. You have given me the most genorous gift one could ever give and I. the biggest fool on earth, (I am sure) not only have failed to open the gift but also i keep forgetting to thank you. Since Yoram was here in israel there was a great change in me: it's just that he cleared away a whole amount of dust and now I can see again. David Sevitt Jerusalem, Israel

Subject: Re: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: gurucharnanand To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:20:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahhhh good fuck wwwith blonds too

Subject: Re: Oh Lord, thank your sending Yoram to me From: oezmer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:18:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: goerum duerum allahhhhhhh allalalallalallala huhuuhuhuuhuuhhuuh akbar is dancin in the strip bar

Subject: Hey Yoram, gotta job for you good buddy! From: George 'W' Bush (aka Richard) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:37:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While you're over there in the Holy Land clearing away dust from people's eyes, do you think you and your Guru could do something about those tacky Palestinian suicide bombers and trigger happy Israelis? Those guys really do distract from my 2004 campaign goal of kicking Evil in the butt. Your pal, W. Disclaimer: The President of the US did NOT just post here.

Subject: I am not an idiot From: George W. Bush (aka Joe) To: George 'W' Bush (aka Richard) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:10:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Despite the fact that I was caught on tape waving repeatedly to Stevie Wonder in front of an audience of people a few days ago, some of whom were laughing, I am not an idiot. [You have to read the foreign press, or an obscure item in the Washington Post to know this happened.] In fact, according to the US press, on September 12, 2001, I was transformed from being a dufus and woke up as the reincarnation of Teddy Roosevelt.

Subject: Stevie Wonder is blind. From: Joe To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:30:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In case you didn't get it. Hey, I thought it was funny! The president waving at Stevie Wonder? :)

Subject: What about the nukes? From: Bob Doyle (Gail) To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:42:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless they are being dropped on a certain empty residence in Malibu. . . Don't you think it's a bit harsh to start bombing millions of innocents because they have biological weapons. God, we Yankees didn't even destroy our smallpox strains (which is probably the most successful virus--way better than anthrax) even though we promised to over a decade. Our boys said, 'Why bother. The USSR has misplaced some of its virus and countless renegade states probably kept theirs. Our word is no good either.' It seems to me that this new world order sucks big time for John Q. Public. Maybe they are abusing their new powers to weed out wackers like the Lard.

Subject: Yeah, right From: Jim (aka Jim) To: George W. Bush (aka Joe) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:26:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: [You have to read the foreign press, or an obscure item in the Washington Post to know this happened.] What would you expect? A headline? Do you think the powers that be negotiated the placement? Or is it just subconscious compliance on their lackeys' (i.e. journalists') part to accomdate them while pretending to really be journalists? Scandalous, however you look at it, I'm sure.

Subject: Jim, lighten up, okay? (nt) From: Joe To: Jim (aka Jim) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:31:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Barf Bags From: Pass the To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:55:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You must have a stomach made of steel to read this site!

Subject: What Was That Experience? From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:06:56 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Quoting from my own post of March 2: 'I was sitting at the back of the Montreal Forum the first night of Peace Flight in April 1977 and started sobbing when Maharaji walked on stage - dissipating the nervous energy and leaving me with a peaceful feeling inside - cosmic I thought again.' In fact I remember feeling extremely good from that moment until I 'received knowledge' three and a half months later. At that point my life went from kind of static but very very nice to dynamic and sometimes confusing. From my post of March 15, Journey Entry Fifth Installment: 'I must have heard voices too, because I jumped off the second floor balcony of my apartment, not once, but five times. The fifth time I balked, tried to stop myself in mid activity, and ended up breaking some bones and ending up in a hospital, mostly the psychiatric ward, for quite a while.' When I decided to stop the jumping activity, I felt energy leave me and, in fact, from that moment on I could never practice the techniques again. Can anyone explain these experiences to me? I'd be happy to provide clarification to any serious enquirer. Thanks, Steve

Subject: Re: What Was That Experience? From: konni To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:00:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an interesting life story you have. I am guessing that you must have been quite young in 1977. Your description reminds me of the experiences that many young people have which is loosely defined as schizophrenic. Please don't be alarmed by my suggestion. In our teen years we experience heightened hormonal activity (designed to stimulate growth or evolution and perhaps also to balance out the rapid physical changes). Throughout life we have experiences which set us apart. We then experience reactions (physical, emotional, mental) as we make sense of and order the new stimuli in our lives. These reactions are chemical/hormonal and may be experienced subtly, grossly or not at all. The mind/brain is a delicate organism and in youth we are at a delicate stage of development. Foods, additives, light or heavy medicants or drugs, stressful situations have their impact on our finely balanced systems. Some of us have very sensitive metabolisms or sensitive natures and it takes very little to experience an altered state. This can be such an overwhelming experience that it is easy to conclude that - 'I am struggling'. This in turn stimulates more hormonal activity and I guess depending on our circumstances, self esteem, strategy for coping, supportive environment etc. we either assimilate our highs and lows over time or the experience gallops away with us. There are still many unexplained mysteries about our biological nature - physical, spiritual and mental. People see what they want to see, cosmic or otherwise. It probably doesn't matter if you or anyone else wants to deem it real or not, meaningful or not. For me the bottom line is - what are our experiences and beliefs designed to achieve? Are we hanging on to them through habit, or guilt, or belonging or whatever? Does it matter if we change our beliefs? Maharaji's paradigm represented a huge shift in thinking, beliefs, actions etc. and could be experienced on all sorts of levels as cosmic, euphoric etc. you name it. Perhaps for our biological system to accomodate what he was offering, and it was very attractive for a lot of us, we had to create some very tangible experiences. Coming out of that paradigm is also having a huge effect wholistically on people. Premie or not, humans are capable of a diverse range of experience seemingly beyond their creation or control. (refer posting on long list of side effects and John Mac's What is knowledge). It is a tragedy that many people (especially young) have understandably mild or even severe psychotic episodes as they experience the increasing pressure on their understanding of the world and themselves. Tragic because there is still a dreadful stigma associated with this which I believe further pushes ones self confidence over the edge. In my association with sensitive people I have observed that many of those who can roll with the punches or ride the wave without or even while resorting to disorienting, corrective medication or becoming dependent on external support systems etc., will gradually regain a comfortable relationship with themselves, life and all its complexities. They atune, balance, they feel OK about things. They feel a sense of reward in growing older and knowing there's still more to learn. Others panic, feel a sense of failure, grasp at straws and tip towards increasing disorientation, their wonderful biological systems respond by pumping out more helpful hormones. Extreme highs and lows, flashes of brilliance, cosmic moments - we flirt with mind altering substances and jump off balconies. I see that humans continually shift their weight to find balance. We shift our perspective to find balance. Our biological nature is a creative nature. We create perspectives and call them reality.

Subject: A lot of your energy and From: Gail To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:46:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wistful thinking! Sure it felt real. It's rather like listening to a drug addict nonstop for about three weeks straight. The experience starts to sound really good and the next thing you know you're trying it. By listening to all those lies, we lied to ourselves and manufactured the whole trip. Talk about brain farts (brain chemistry), eh?

Subject: Barbara Kolodney? From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:35:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anybody know whatever happened to her? I was told in the early 80s that she left the Maharaji cult with a fairly strong statement. Is anyone in touch with her? She is one of the first people who gave me satsang, BTW.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 22:46:22 (EST) Email Address: mmdonner@shaw.ca Message: hi joe, i have asked about her to many folks and no one seems to know where she is. for awile she bought books for amtext after she left miami, being dumped as an instructor. i would be very interested in being in touch with her...i have very fond memories and regards for her. so, if that happens, my new email address is here.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: Joe To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:32:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always liked Barbara, although I didn't know her well. She seemed to have a sense of humor and was smart. Michael, anything more you have to say on the 'instructor dumping' would be appreciated. Did Barbara leave the cult at that time?

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney? From: michael donner To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:13:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: joe, yes, she left at that time. she was devastated to be told that 'she could/should go anywhere and do anything that she wanted'. she and probably most of the other instructors at the time felt that they had 'given their lives to m', that there was a mutual promise to be connected in that service for the rest of their life...that it was a life long commitment they had been asked to make and they made it....to have it pulled out from under them without any consultation or notice. in most cases, they heard from me not from m directly...though there was this expected mutual direct relationship 'no one between us' understanding that m was careful to develop with the instructors. but, as has been said so many times before on this and other forums, m has always been avoiding taking personal responsibility for the systems, institutions and proceedures that he creates. when they go 'bad' or he feels they need to change (usually due to financial reasons in large part) he uses others to do his 'dirty' work. now, i'm sure that m's point of view is that these people gave their lives to him and he could do whatever he wanted to/'with them, including changing their service from that of instructor to that of nothing, anywhere. afterall, obedience is obedience and some instructors viewed the whole sudden change as a 'test' of their loyalty and devotion...blind faith, as they certainly did not understand what he was doing nor why he was doing it...especially why he was doing it to them. so, there was lots of confusion, anger and real sadness during that period. and of course, little or no support for any of them. very little money was allocated for this transistion..like few hundred per instructor, no counselling (that was considered tabo then of course). we managed to get some copies of 'what color is your parachute' and give them out to these 150 people. remember, during that time frame, m was having his marital difficulties and was emotionally, and practically unavailable.

Subject: Re: Barbara Kolodney ps From: michael donner To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:16:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i must say, i cannot speak for barbara's feelings, motivation or experience at that time, nor since as we have not talked since before it all came down. i do know that she did not want to be contacted by anyone and very very few people knew where she was or what she was doing then..or still. (as to why, it would be pure speculation)

Subject: Barbara was great -- From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:02:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unfortunately, I can't help here as far as finding her, because I haven't seen her in years. I would be interested in knowing more about where she ended up after I last saw her. She was in Los Angeles for one or two 'tours' of duty when I lived in the ashram there, and then she came to stay with us for a little bit in the Bay Area ashram in the early 80s. She was pretty down to earth and was well liked by everyone. She had spent some time in Africa living fairly primitively, so she wasn't a 'princess.' --f

Subject: Re: Barbara was great -- From: michaedonner To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:19:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: she was in the peace corp in kenya for some time. she certainly was not universally liked as she was a pretty hard core devotee and expected dedication and devotion from those she spoke to, especailly in the ashram.

Subject: Michael: Oops, busted! From: Francesca To: michaedonner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:15:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, When I knew her I was a 'hard core devotee' myself, although always with a rebellious streak. But now that you mention it, if I had been around her when I was in another space, things might have been different. But that "not floating on a bliss cloud" as Richard said below describes her well. If she was hard core, there was a lot of core to it, rather than fluff. And there's something to be said for having integrity about the whole thing and not being halfway about it, although that integrity and devotion was foolishly misplaced on all our parts. I have to remember that many folks I consider "good people" now were also "good premies," and paid the price dearly for their sincerity. And in LA, I think I got a rep as being a 'hardass' myself for a while. I was ashram coordinator for at least a year or so, somewhere between 1978 and 1980 (when I burned out and was ultimately transferred to SF). The position was created mainly to mobilize the ashrams to pay off a debt that was incurred through Kathy Gliebe for some project or other -- I think it was to purchase the Loyola Theater, an old art deco movie theater, as the local satsang hall. It was also big enough for small programs with Maharaji. Kathy got called to OGM and they needed to pay Kathy's mother off on the loan in a timely manner without any negative impact on her mother's impressions of the guru. So they needed someone who could tell a house coordinator in Malibu that they would have to eat rice and beans all month and still pay off their portion of the debt even if half the brothers in the house weren't working and were going up to the residence every day to do service. That sort of thing. We city folk were more practical than those Malibu gopis (tongue somewhat in cheek). The majority of my ashram sister-ji's were also on a devotional roll, so, ha ha, we didn't find Barbara to be too hard core. With the Maha often in LA (until he left us for Miami), there was a rabid devotional core in the ashram and the community. Thanks for the reality check and the flashback! --f

Subject: Barbara's ashram satsang From: Joe To: michaedonner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:30:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know Barbara could be pretty heavy in giving ashram satsang. At Kissimee in 1979, she gave satsang at that incredibly intense ashram meeting just prior to Maharaji arriving. She talked about how we were all 'beggars' and that 'beggars can't be choosers' and that we had no right to expect any kind of anything in our lives. Part of the reason I recall this, is that the video of that ashram meeting was made available, and it began with the ending of Barbara's satsang, which sort of ended mid-sentence when Maharaji arrived and we all started with the bohle shri's. Then, of course, Maharaji's intense satsang was even worse, but we have all talked about that many times.

Subject: Is that Kissimee event transcribed? From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:42:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't think I've seen a transcript of it - or the Atlanta Instructors' meeting where M talks about marriage. Wasn't Francesca typing it up?

Subject: No, but the Rome Ashram meeting is online From: JHB To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:42:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why read a transcription when you can download Maharaji's own voice instructing ashram premies in Rome. I must link it on EPO sometime, but even with the advertising here, 700 MB has been downloaded from this directory. John. Maharaji's wisdom for ashramers www.ex-premie2.org/download/

Subject: John that NEEDS transcribing From: cq To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:44:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John that NEEDS transcribing - - and I'd only be too willing to do it, except that the audio quality is so dire, I can't make out half of what he's saying! Could you email me if you've got an audio tape or CD which I could work with? Cheers, Chris

Subject: Re: Is that Kissimee event transcribed? From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:45:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia is typing up the transcript of the Atlantic City Coordinators Meeting from December, 1976. And I think she's pretty much finished with it. That's where M talks about marriage (very disparagingly). I'm not aware of the Kissimee Ashram meeting being transcribed, but I know it was recorded and available, at least to the ashrams, and it may have even been published in some edited form in the 'Elan Vital' publication or Divine Times around 1980. If anybody has tapes or magazines from around that time, they might check to see if they have it. Francesca remembers the "suck the rat" comments, etc. M also talked about getting land in Florida, which he said was already identified, where we were all going to live. For some reason the word "Jonestown" entered my evil mind right at that point, if I recall correctly, and I had to remember holy name to get rid of it.

Subject: Here's one volunteer for transcript duty From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:54:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'suck the rat' ??? What the hell does that mean?

Subject: Francesca? From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:24:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to explain? I think it has been enough time since breakfast, but remember, it's lunchtime in the Central Time Zone. :)

Subject: Suck the rat From: Francesca To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:29:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I should have saved this somewhere on my hard drive. Thinking back up the moment when the Maha uttered, no ANGRILY SCREAMED the words 'suck the rat!!!' it was the clearest bell I ever should have heard rung that the guy is nuts. At the ashram meeting at Kissimmee he was working himself up into a positive froth on the theme of us giving our devotion to anything but him. How dare we!!! He started going on about reading books, I think, but anyway, he segued into food. And he started positively ripping us as traitors for eating substitutes for the foods that we, as ashram premies were not supposed to eat. Fake mayonnaise, etc. Then he worked his way into us enjoying any little worldly pleasure, and how pathetic we were in our little enjoyments. Then he started berating us for enjoying Coca-Cola. He said something like, what if you were drinking a Coca-Cola and 'thunk' (he did say 'thunk') there was a dead rat at the bottom of the bottle. He asked if we would love our Coca-Cola then. And he uttered the now famous words, sneering and screaming, 'Suck the rat!!! It's full of Cola-Cola!' No wonder my dedication to the Lardass feet just wouldn't stick. I think it's against human nature to truly dedicate your life to a person as wacko as that. He came ungled with the concept that we would love anyone but him. Some of that theme certainly made its way into the public satsangs at Kissimmee. I think it would be great if someone spliced some old audios and videos and made tapes of Maharaji getting red in the face and screaming. We could call it the Ted Patrick Special in memory of the valiant but misguided efforts of old 'Black Lightning.' If K-lite folks were to watch or listen it would certainly blow their hair back. --F

Subject: It is kind of funny, though From: Jim To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:06:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is all sick, for sure. I just listened to the first audio clip of the Montreal satsang and the guy is a horrendous oppressor. Even the silences -- God, don't we remember those! -- those silences were our instant, silent confession booths. But, having said that, as ugly as he was, as ugly as he is, you have to admit that, if you accept anything he was saying (which no rational person out of the cult ever could) -- okay, enough quailifiers? It IS kind of funny. You know, just conjurs this cartoon image of someone who really liked their coke. Got to be honest, I laughed when I heard it the first time and I laughed today. Oh well.

Subject: I didn't laugh From: Joe To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:33:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, maybe I chuckled on one level, but one thing it did for me big time was play right into my guilt for having any desires, or even natural human feelings. Mind you, by that time, my guilty pleasures living in the ashram had been pretty much reduced to: 1. Coffee -- when I could sneak into a coffee shop; 2. Ice cream and occasionally a milk shake; 3. Sneaking a read of the New York Times when nobody was looking; 4. Listening to NPR or an FM music station when I drove my DLM-issue blue, Plymouth Valiant, instead of a droning satsang tape or trash cult-music; and 5. Okay, okay, maybe a very occasional spank or two of the monkey in the ashram bathroom. That was it, really, and Maharaji did his best to make me feel guilty about any of it. That satsang was pure psychological torture and the ultimate in mind-fuck, mind control. It was Maharaji at his most megalomaniacal, sadistic worst when it came to trying to control other human beings.

Subject: Of course From: Jim To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:25:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I'm saying, Joe, which even you concede, is that it was funny. I mean, I just saw the Mamet flick, 'Heist', the other night. [WARNING -- SPOILER] Danny Devito's shot and Gene Hackman's standing over him about to finish him off. Devito asks 'Don't you want to hear my last words?' to which Hackman replies 'I just did' and shoots him dead. What can I tell you? It was funny. The rat was funny. But it was funny in the cruel, cruel way he toyed with his subjects. I'm telling you, I've listened to only two of the clips now and it's the silence that gets me the most. Because it was in that silence that we tortured ourselves most with self-recrimination. By the way, talking about 'guilty pleasures', my big one was reading Time once a week. That was pretty much it.

Subject:   From:  : To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 21:14:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the way, talking about 'guilty pleasures', my big one was reading Time once a week. That was pretty much it. Is that it Jim? you never spanked your monkey (LOL) in the ashram? May I remind you, you are under oath here...

Subject: I WOULD trascribe that tape From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 13:24:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't believe what a drone slave I was. Jim had it right about those silences -- our little private confessional booths where we prayed to be worthy. But to hear his creepy voice delivering that sermon would probably have the most effect, although a trascription would tell a lot of the tale. I agree with you Joe. Maharaji's 'jokes' were often at our own expense. We would laugh heartily with the 'Lord' at what worthless, hopeless, unworthy humans we were. Sickening. Absolutely. Francesca

Subject: Re: Francesca? From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:54:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could have sworn that Fran was transcribing something you'd sent her. (thinks ... or was it something I'd sent her?) Only one thing for it - help!

Subject: Nope, not doing any transcripts From: Francesca To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:37:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have some tapes a friend sent me, but I haven't even wanted to listen to them. Just reminiscing about all this stuff here is about as much of it as I can stand. When I walk away from the computer, I also walk away from thinking about all of this too much. Bests, --f

Subject: Now I remember! From: cq To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:44:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or should I keep this off-Forum? oh shit, what a quandary. (wasn't there a small matter some proof-reading you were going to do?) Beans spilled. Are beans like milk?

Subject: E-mail me From: Francesca To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:40:29 (EST) Email Address: notinherent@yahoo.com Message: I didn't see the beans! --f

Subject: Agree, Barbara was great -- From: Richard To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:12:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall Barbara as being down to earth, intelligent and friendly. Alway available for real conversation and not floating on a bliss cloud. In other words, a real human being. I hope she is healthy and still embracing life fully.

Subject: mysterious occurence From: WPC Girl To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:38:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read the debacle about aliases and am chastened also a little worried as I don't know who reads this. I'd like to know if anyone can shed light on an incident that occured in the late 80s. Winter 86-87 or87-88. About a week after atending a programme in Wembley (marge not football) a cid inspector knocked on my front door. He had my name and said he was investigating an attack on a young woman who had attended the programme in Wembley. It was late afternoon and I was sending home the neighbors children and feeding and watering my own. I did not have any reason to assume his enquiries were anything other than what he claimed. He stayed for what I later realised was a very long time asking lots of questions. Basically they boiled down to did I know any iffy characters who had attended the event? As far as I knew at the time there weren't any practising rapists or murderers in the darshan line that night. I gave him the names of friends I'd travelled there with and those I remembered seeing there. He never called or visited any of them. I was not registered as having been at the event, people who were never got a visit as far as I know. On and off down the years it's bothered me as I never heard anything in premieland about an attack and wonder if it actually happened. It was the 80s and anything ouside theCBI the Masons or the Tory Party was seen as a subversive organisation so he could have been checking something altogether different from his stated objective. If anyone knows anything about it, did an attack occur? whatever I'd like to know. Maybe he just called for the pleasure of my company. WPC Girl is not the name on my birth certificate, I have lots of reasons to be paranoid. WPC Girl

Subject: I also had a visit form the cid From: Jethro To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:39:51 (EST) Email Address: jed53@hotmail.com Message: I was doing security at that program(late 80s). I presume that's how they got my name. According to the cid blokes, a girl after the program was severly attacked, but had a complete memory block as to what happened.She ws in a coma for a while. She was found in a park. I don't know who the girl was, but I know it was a genuine cid investigation because I checked with cid before I agreed to talk to the bloke. I told him all I could about the program(and of course gave him satsang{barf}). I remember them commenting on how everyone they spoke to at the program talked about m. I don't think he got any helpful info from any of the premies. I never heared from him again. Sorry I couldn't provide you more info. If you want to chat my email is above. Take care Jethro

Subject: Re: I also had a visit form the cid From: Wpc Girl To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:42:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jethro. I hope she made a recovery. I didn't feel like I gave any usefull information to him. Be good to know if the bastard perpetrator got his just rewards. I f the girl, now woman is reading this it didn't happen because of a shortfall in your devotion to m. It happened because there are a lot of dysfunctional scumbags around. I hope you have recovered and moved on and have good support in your life. Sorry none of us was with you to prevent it. Love and good luck, That sounds feeble not sure what I can offer but my thoughts are with you. WPC Girl

Subject: Paranoia...... From: PatD To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:17:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....is corrosive to understanding,I know,I've been there. 1st off I never heard anything about an attack,but as I was well out of the loop then & not even living in the country that's not surprising. You'll never know why the cop came to see you because you never asked him who gave your name. The fact that he never followed up on the names you gave him... maybe they'd already caught the attacker before that was neccessary. How do you think the agents of the state get their information? It's not by reading newspapers,it's by talking to people who are involved in stuff. As you were. I'd say that the state rightly concluded a long time before the '80's that premies were no threat. Maybe your cop had never heard of the Lord of the fucking Universe & was just sussing out the group you were into,maybe he was bored ,maybe he fancied you,maybe who knows.....but you'll never know because you never asked him. A thing that always struck me in the 90's when I started going to events again(usually Brighton conference centre)was the way the blissed out multitude would spill out onto the Promenade & block up the traffic with never a cop in sight. Obviously they knew that premies as a group were not at all subversive & moreover they(the cops) didn't give a shit about people out on the town getting delayed.Bastards. Somebody put them up to it I reckon,probably one of those Tory capitalists with the funny handshake. Get well soon : Pat Dorrity,Stratford-upon-Avon,England.

Subject: Re: Paranoia...... From: WPC Girl To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:32:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey come on Pat, you think having a rational thought goes along with having a baby on your breast, six kids sliding down the stairs on matresses, a nourishing meal burning in the oven and the filth cluttering up your dining table with the accoutrements of criminal investigation? The paranoia is from putting my ore in on a local environmental issue, asking questions I've checked possible answers to. Is it the left trouser leg rolled up that goes with the apron I can never remember , see you at the lodge. Regards and thanks WPC Girl

Subject: Good unintentional pun From: Jim To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:42:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The paranoia is from putting my ore in on a local environmental issue... Hey, how come all your posts have 'link' turned on?

Subject: Re: Good unintentional pun From: WPC Girl To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:48:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I knew the answer to that one I'd be as technologicaly proficient as the rest of you seem to be. My normal computer is a wind up steam number with a running board, I wear goggles and have a bloke walking in front with a flag when I use it . Cheers and Jai WPC Girl

Subject: The case of the unmissing links From: cq To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:49:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happened to me once. Apparently if you even just click in the 'Link Name/Link URL' fields (below the box where you type your reply) the system thinks there's link been added, whether you've typed anything in those fields or not. (thinks - now watch everyone try it ;( )

Subject: You're doin' just fine From: gerry To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 18:00:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Verrry interesting post, indeed. Unfortunately I have nothing to add that might help solve the mystery but wanted to add that you are very welcome to stay anonymous and post to your heart's content. Anonymity is an acceptable status here. It only becomes a problem when people post under multiple aliases for purposes of creating havoc and disruption.

Subject: Re: You're doin' just fine From: Bob, Ted, Alice, Bill, Sally To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:30:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How come WPC Girl and Bolly Shri are the only two people whose posts ALWAYS SHOW A LINK but there's no link and also have the same MAC computer. Therefore, WPC Girl and Bolly Shri must be the same person, but one who wants two aliases. Thanks, Bob, Ted, Alice, Horatio, Juan, Izzy, Sarah, Felipe and Carla

Subject: You can't tell by the browser From: gerry To: Bob, Ted, Alice, Bill, Sally Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:53:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And the IP numbers don't match. I rarely look at IP's to see who is who. My natural inclination is to allow people their privacy, especial new posters who may have some privacy concerns. In this case the IPs are different for each post so perhaps WPC girl has a dynamic IP. Maybe she is trying out 'handles' I really don't know. Of course most of us like to know who we are talking with even if it is an anonymous person and consistency in using a name is a courtesy most of us appreciate. I do understand your concern and thanks.

Subject: But why the links icon, Gerry? [nt] From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:55:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: thank you gery From: WPC Girl To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:43:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WPC Girl

Subject: To WPC girl re 'links' From: Livia To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 09:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A bit of technical advice: you don't need to click on the 'link name' box; this is for adding a 'link' to another website. It's enough just to put your name in the box at the top of your posts. Otherwise the 'link' icon appears next to all your posts telling everybody there's a link when there isn't. With love, Livia

Subject: Aliases can be OK. From: Richard To: WPC Girl Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:03:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WPC Girl. The alias thread I started was mainly to do with posting under other people's real names. I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name. Many here do and have for quite some time. I respect your wishes to remain anonymous while contributing here. Your reasons are your own and that's good enough for me. Richard aka Richard

Subject: physical signs of spirit shift From: janet To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:21:18 (EST) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: i got this as a link in my mail this morning. the person who sent it to me knows nothing of my cult years. the person who wrote it knows nothing of either of us. say all you want about it being bunk. I have had all these happen to me, whether or not I was practicing knowledge or living my life as a premie or as a renouncing, denouncing ex. 'hon y soit qui mal y pense' --- --- For the past several years, many of my friends, students, and clients have described experiencing a multitude of changes, strange feelings and physicalsensations. I myself have been passing through an unusual period of my lifethat, in many ways, matches that of my friends. At first, I labeled what was happening to me as a mid-life crisis and/or menopause. But I began to observe similar conditions among men and all age groups. At that point I began to compare notes with others and do some research into this subject. What follows is a compilation of my findings. Many of these may seem bizarre to some readers, but I can assure you that these conditions exist among healthy, mentally and emotionally sound adults from around the world. One note of caution: I am not recommending that anyone ignore major physical or emotional conditions requiring professional attention. So please do not overlook any serious medical condition . But if this list is in anyway helpful to those of you who are confused and worried about some of these symptoms, so be it. The advice given for many of the symptoms is also gathered from various sources (books on traditional spiritual practices as well as channeled information) and may not reflect my own personal experience. As with anything, use discernment: if it's useful, fine; if not, ignore it. One excellent book to read is What Is Lightbody? Archangel Ariel channeled by Tashira Tachi-ren. OrJack Kornfield's A Path with Heart. We all experience our spiritual development in our own unique way. For someof us the changes occur slowly; for others a series of events can trigger sudden growth. We do not all share the same symptoms or changes. And certainly we hold our individual spiritual beliefs. We are as different as snowflakes, yet we share a common essence and general shape. Some of this informationmay resonate for you. Other concepts may not be comfortable for you. Each of us must examine new information and discern for ourselves what is truth and what does not serve us. So I ask you to do this for yourself as you read this list. You are responsible for your own interpretation. Peace and Love, Ellen ellen@hevanet.com SYMPTOMS OF SPIRITUAL AWAKENING 1. Changing sleep patterns: restlessness, hot feet, waking up two or three times a night. Feeling tired after you wake up and sleepy off and on during the day. There is something called the Triad Sleep Pattern that occurs for many: you sleep for about 2-3 hours, wake up, go back to sleep for another couple of hours, wake again, and go back to sleep again. For others, the sleeprequirements have changed. You can get by on less sleep. Lately I have been experiencing huge waves of energy running into my body from the crown. It feels good, but it keeps me awake for a long time, then subsides. Advice: Get used to it. Make peace with it and don't worry about getting enough sleep (which often causes more insomnia). You will be able to make it through the day if you hold thoughts of getting just what you need. You can also request your Higher Power to give you a break now and then and give you a good, deep night's sleep. If you can't go back to sleep right away, use the waking moments to meditate, read poetry, write in your journal or look at the moon. Your body will adjust to the new pattern. 2. Activity at the crown of the head: Tingling, itching, prickly, crawling sensations along the scalp and/or down the spine. A sense of energy vibrating on top of the head, as if energy is erupting from the head in a shower. Also the sensation of energy pouring in through the crown, described as 'sprinkles'. This may also be experienced as pressure on the crown, as if someone is pushing his/her finger into the center of your head. As I mentioned in #1, I have been experiencing huge downloads of energy through the crown. In the past, I have felt more generalized pressure, as if my head is in a gentle vise. One man related that his hair stood on end and his body was covered with goosebumps. Advice: This is nothing to be alarmed about. What you are experiencing is an opening of the crown chakra. The sensations mean that you are opening up to receive divine energy. 3. Sudden waves of emotion. Crying at the drop of a hat. Feeling suddenly angry or sad with little provocation. Or unexplicably depressed. Then very happy. Emotional roller coaster. There is often a pressure or sense of emotions congested in the heart chakra (the middle of the chest). This is not to beconfused with the heart, which is located to the left of the heart chakra. Advice: Accept your feelings as they come up and let them go. Go directly to your heart chakra and feel the emotion. Expand it outward to your all yourfields and breathe deeply from the belly all the way up to your upper chest. Just feel the feeling and let it evaporate on its own. Don't direct the emotions at anyone. You are cleaning out your past. If you want some help with this, say out loud that you intend to release all these old issues and ask your Higher Power to help you. You can also ask Grace Elohim to help you release with ease and gentleness. Be grateful that your body is releasing theseemotions and not holding onto them inside where they can do harm. One source suggests that depression is linked to letting go of relationships to people, work, etc. that no longer match us and our frequencies. When we feel guilty about letting go of these relationships, depression helps us medicate that pain. 4. Old 'stuff' seems to be coming up, as described above, and the people with whom you need to work it out (or their clones) appear in your life. Completion issues. Or perhaps you need to work through issues of self-worth, abundance, creativity, addictions, etc. The resources or people you need to helpyou move through these issues start to appear. Advice: Same as #3. Additionally, don't get too involved in analyzing these issues. Examining them too much will simply cycle you back through them over and over again at deeper and deeper levels. Get professional help if you need to and walk through it. Do not try to avoid them or disassociate yourself from them. Embrace whatever comes up and thank it for helping you move ahead. Thank your Higher Power for giving you the opportunity to release these issues. Remember, you don't want these issues to stay stuck in your body. 5. Changes in weight. The weight gain in the US population is phenomenal. Other people may be losing weight. We often gain weight because many fears we have suppressed are now coming up to the surface to be healed. We react by building up a defense. We also attempt to ground ourselves or provide bulk against increasing frequencies in our bodies. Advice: Don't freak out, but just accept it as a symptom of where you are right now. You will release/gain the weight when all your fears have been integrated. Release your anxiety about this. Then you might find it easier to lose/gain the weight eventually. Exercise. Before eating, try this: Sit at the table with an attractive place setting. Light a candle. Enjoy how the food looks. Place your dominant hand over your heart and bless the food. Tell your body that you are going to use the food to richly nourish it, but that you are not going to use the food to fulfill your emotional hungers. Then pass your hand from left to right over the food and bless it. You may notice that the food feels warm to your hand even if the food is cold-- I like to think that the food is good for me when it feels warm and nourishing to my hand. I have also noticed that when I practice blessing the food, I don't eat as much. It is important not to let yourself off the hook when you forget to bless the food before you eat. If I've forgotten and I've nearly finished eating, I bless the food anyway. That way I don't slip out of the habit. Another thing you can do is to stay present while eating -- don't watch TV or read. Heartily enjoy what blessings are before you. 6. Changes in eating habits: Strange cravings and odd food choices. Some find they are not as hungry as they used to be. Or hungrier. Advice: Don't deny what your body tells you it needs. If you are not sure, you might try muscle-testing before you chose a food to see if it's what your body wants. Also try blessing the food as described in #5. 7. Food intolerances, allergies you never had before: As you grow more spiritual, you are more sensitive to everything around you. Your body will tell you what it can no longer tolerate, as if it, too, is sloughing off what doesn't serve it anymore. You might be cleansing yourself of toxins. Some people find they often have a white residue in their mouth, much like that of runners at the end of a race. Advice: An acupuncturist told me that this film can be removed by sloshing 2 tablespoons of cold-pressed olive oil in your mouth for 10-15 minutes (don't swallow, whatever you do), then spitting it out into the toilet -- not the sink, for you just removed toxins from your body and don't want them in the sink. Brush your teeth and do the same. Then clean your brush. (Sorry this is yukky, but it works.) 8. Amplification of the senses. Increased sensitivity. 8a. Sight: Blurry vision, shimmering objects, seeing glittery particles, auras around people, plants, animals, and objects. Some report seeing formerlyopaque objects as transparent. When you close your eyes, you no longer see darkness, but a redness. You may also see geometric shapes or brilliant colors and pictures when eyes are closed. Colors appear more vivid -- the sky might look teal or the grass an amazing green. Often I see grids running across the ground. As you become more sensitive, you may see shapes or outlines in the air, especially when the room is almost dark. When your eyes are open or closed, you may see white shapes in your peripheral vision (these are your guides). Advice: Your vision is changing in many ways -- you are experiencing new ways of seeing. Be patient. Whatever you do, do not be afraid. Hazy vision maybe relieved by yawning. 8b. Hearing: Increased or decreased hearing. I once thought I would have to pull off the road because of the painfully amplified sound of my tires on the freeway. Other symptoms are hearing white noise in the head, beeps, tones, music or electronic patterns. Some hear water rushing, bees buzzing, whooshing, roaring or ringing. Others have what is called audio dyslexia-- you can't always make out what people are saying, as if you can no longer translate your own language. Some hear strange voices in their dreams, as if someoneis hovering near them. You can either ask the presence(s) to leave or ask Archangel Michael to take care of the situation. Again, there is nothing to fear. Advice: Surrender to it. Let it come through. Listen. Your ears are adjusting to new frequencies. 8c. Enhanced senses of smell, touch, and/or taste. I notice I can now smell and taste chemical additives in some foods in a rather unpleasant manner. Other food may taste absolutely wonderful. For some people, these enhancements are both delightful and distracting. You might even smell the fragrance of flowers now and then. Many of the mystics did. Enjoy it. 9. Skin eruptions: Rashes, bumps, acne, hives, and shingles. Anger produces outbreaks around the mouth and chin. I had a dermatitis on my extremities for several months that accompanied healing an episode from my past. When I had worked through most of the issue, the condition was released. Advice: You may be sloughing off toxins and bringing emotions to the surface. When there is an issue to be released and you are trying to repress it, your skin will express the issue for you until you process the emotions. Work through your 'stuff'. 10. Episodes of intense energy which make you want to leap out of bed and into action. Followed by periods of lethargy and fatigue. The fatigue usually follows great shifts. This is a time of integration, so give into it. Advice: Roll with the nature of the energy. Don't fight it. Be gentle with yourself. Take naps if you are tired. Write your novel if you are too energized to sleep. Take advantage of the type of energy. 11. Changes in prayer or meditation. Not feeling the same sensations as before. Not having the same experience of being in contact with Spirit. Difficulty in focusing. Advice: You may be in more instant and constant communion with Spirit now and the sensation may therefore be altered. You will adapt to this new feeling. You are actually thinking and acting in partnership with Spirit most of the time now. You may find your meditation periods shorter. 12. Power surges: All of a sudden you are heated from head to toe. It is a momentary sensation, but uncomfortable. In contrast, some people have felt inexplicably cold. I have experienced both. More recently I experience waves or currents of energy rolling through me. Sometimes the energy seems so intense when it first comes into my body that I feel a little nauseated. But if I think of the energy as divine and let go of fear, I feel wonderful and enjoy the sensation. If you are an energy worker, you may have noticed that the heat running through your hands has increased tremendously. This is good. Advice: If you are uncomfortable, ask your Higher Power, that if it be for your best and highest good, to turn down/up the temperature a bit. 13. A range of physical manifestations: Headaches, backaches, neck pains, flu-like symptoms (this is called vibrational flu), digestive problems, muscular spasms or cramps, racing heartbeat, chest pains, changes in sexual desire, numbness or pain in the limbs, and involuntary vocalizations or bodily movements. Some of us have even had old conditions from childhood reappear briefly for healing. Advice: Remember what I said about seeking medical help if you need it! If you have determined that this is not a medical condition, relax in the realization that it is only temporary. 14. Looking younger. Yippee! As you clear emotional issues and release limiting beliefs and heavy baggage from the past, you are actually lighter. Your frequency is higher. You love yourself and life more. You begin to resemble the perfect you that you really are. 15. Vivid dreams. Sometimes the dreams are so real that you wake up confused. You may even have lucid dreams in which you are in control. Many dreams may be mystical or carry messages for you. And in some dreams, you just know that you are not 'dreaming' -- that what is happening is somehow real. Advice: You will remember what is important for you to remember. Don't force anything. Above all, stay out of fear. 16. Events that completely alter your life: death, divorce, change in job status, loss of home, illness, and/or other catastrophes -- sometimes severalat once! Forces that cause you to slow down, simplify, change, re-examine who you are and what your life means to you. Forces that you cannot ignore. Forces that cause you release your attachments. Forces that awaken your senseof love and compassion for all. 17. A desire to break free from restrictive patterns, life-draining jobs consumptive lifestyles, and toxic people or situations. You feel a compelling need to 'find yourself' and your life purpose -- now! You want to be creative and free to be who you really are. You might find yourself drawn to the arts and nature. You want to unclutter yourself from things and people that nolonger serve you. Advice: Do it! 18. Emotional and mental confusion: A feeling that you need to get your life straightened out--it feels like a mess. But at the same time you feel chaotic and unable to focus. See #45. Advice: Put your ear to your heart and your own discernment will follow. 19. Introspection, solitude and loss of interest in more extraverted activities: This stage has come as a surprise to many extraverts who formerly saw themselves as outgoing and involved. They say, 'I don't know why, but I don't like to go out as much as before.' 20. Creativity bursts: Receiving images, ideas, music, and other creative inspirations at an often overwhelming rate. Advice: At least record these inspirations, for Spirit is speaking to you about how you might fulfill your purpose and contribute to the healing of theplanet. 21. A perception that time is accelerating. It seems that way because you have had so many changes introduced into your life at an unprecedented rate. The number of changes seems to be growing. Advice: Breaking your day up into appointments and time segments increases the sense of acceleration You can slow time down by relaxing into the present moment and paying attention to what's at hand, not anticipating what's ahead. Slow down and tell yourself that you have plenty of time. Ask your Higher Power to help you. Keep your focus on the present. Try to flow from one activity to the next. Stay tuned to your inner guidance..You can also warp time by asking for it. Next time you feel rushed, say, 'Time warp, please. I need some more time to --- --.' Then relax. 22. A sense of impendingness. There is a feeling that something is about to happen. This can create anxiety. Advice: There is nothing to worry about. Things are definitely happening, but anxiety only creates more problems for you. All your thoughts -- positiveor negative-- are prayers. There is nothing to fear. 23. Impatience. You know better, but sometimes you can't help it. You want to get on with what seems to be coming your way. Uncertainty is not comfortable. Advice: Learn to live with the uncertainty, knowing that nothing comes to you until you are ready. Impatience is really a lack of trust, especially trust in your Higher Power. When you focus on the present, you will experience miracles -- yes, even in traffic. 24. A deep yearning for meaning, purpose, spiritual connection, and revelation. Perhaps an interest in the spiritual for the first time in your life. 'Constant craving', as k.d. lang says. The material world cannot fulfill this longing. Advice: Follow your heart and the way will open up for you. 25. A feeling that you are somehow different. A disquieting sense that everything in your life feels new and altered, that you have left your old self behind. You have. You are much greater than you can possibly imagine. There is more to come. 26. 'Teachers' appear everywhere with perfect timing to help you on your spiritual journey: people, books, movies, events, Mother Nature, etc. Teachers may appear to be negative or positive when you are trapped in polarity thinking, but, from a transcendent perspective, they are always perfect. Just what you need to learn from and move on. By the way, we never get more than we are ready to master. Each challenge presents us with an opportunity to show our mastery in passing through it. 27. You find a spiritual track that makes sense to you and 'speaks to you' at the most profound levels. Suddenly you are gaining a perspective that you would never have considered before. You hunger to know more. You read, share with others, ask questions, and go inside to discover more about who you are and why you are here 28. You are moving through learning and personal issues at a rapid pace. You sense that you are 'getting it' quite readily. Advice: Keep remembering that things will come to you when they are ready to be healed. Not sooner. Deal with whatever comes up with courage and you will move through the issues rapidly. 29. Invisible presences. Here is the woo-woo stuff. Some people report feeling surrounded by beings at night or having the sensation of being touched or talked to. Often they will wake with a start. Some also feel their body orbed vibrate. The vibrations are caused by energetic changes after emotionalclearing has taken place. Advice: This is a sensitive topic, but you may feel better blessing your bed and space around it before you sleep. I rest assured that I am surrounded only by the most magnificent spiritual entities and am always safe in God's care. Sometimes, however, the fear gets to me, and I call in Archangel Michael and/or Archangel Uriel. I don't beat myself up for being afraid sometimes. I forgive myself for not always sovereign at 3:00 a.m. 30. Portents, visions, 'illusions', numbers, and symbols: Seeing things that have spiritual importance for you. Noticing how numbers appear synchronistically in your awareness. Everything has a message if you take the time to look. I enjoy the experience of 'getting the messages.' What fun! 31. Increased integrity: You realize that it is time for you to seek and speak your truth. It suddenly seems important for you to become more authentic, more yourself. You may have to say 'no' to people whom you have tried to please in the past. You may find it intolerable to stay in a marriage or job or place that doesn't support who you are. You may also find there is nowhere to hide, no secrets to keep anymore. Honesty becomes important in all yourrelationships. Advice: Listen to your heart. If your guidance tells you not to do something, speak up and take action. Say 'no'. Likewise, you must also say 'yes' to that which compels you. You must risk displeasing others without guilt in order to attain spiritual sovereignty. 32. Harmony with seasons and cycles: You are becoming more tuned to the seasons, the phases of the moon and natural cycles. More awareness of your place in the natural world. A stronger connection to the earth. 33. Electrical and mechanical malfunctions: When you are around, lightbulbs flicker, the computer locks up, or the radio goes haywire. Advice: Call on your angels, guides, or Grace Elohim to fix it or put up a field of protection of light around the machine. Surround your car with bluelight. Laugh. 34. Increased synchronicity and many small miracles. Look for more of these. Advice: Synchronistic events tell you if you are heading in the right direction or making the correct choices. Honor these clues and you cannot go astray. Spirit uses synchronicity to communicate to you. That's when you begin to experience daily miracles. See #30. 35. Increased intuitive abilities and altered states of consciousness: Thinking of someone and immediately hearing from them. More synchronicities. Having sudden insights about patterns or events from the past. Clairvoyance, out-of-body experiences, and other psychic phenomena. Intensified sensitivity and knowing. Awareness of one's essence and that of others. Channeling angelic and Christ-consciousness energies. 36. Communication with Spirit. Contact with angels, spirit guides, and other divine entities. Channeling. More and more people seem to be given this opportunity. Feeling inspiration and downloading information that takes form as writing, painting, ideas, communications, dance, etc. 37. A sense of Oneness with all. A direct experience of this Wholeness. Transcendent awareness. Being flooded with compassion and love for all life. Compassionate detachment or unconditional love for all is what lifts us up to higher levels of consciousness and joy. 38. Moments of joy and bliss. A deep abiding sense of peace and knowing that you are never alone. 39. Integration: You become emotionally, psychologically, physically, and spiritually stronger and clearer. You feel as if you are in alignment with your Higher Self. 40. Living your purpose: You know you are finally doing what you came to earth for. New skills and gifts are emerging, especially healing ones. Your life/work experiences are now converging and starting to make sense. You are finally going to use them all. Advice: Listen to your heart. Your passion leads you to where you must go. Go within and ask your Higher Power, 'What is it you would have me do?' Watch for synchronicities. Listen. 41. Feeling closer to animals and plants. To some people, animals now seem to be more 'human' in their behavior. Wild animals are less afraid. Plants respond to your love and attention more than ever. Some may even have messages for you. 42. Seeing beings of other dimensions. The veil between dimensions is thinner, so it is not surprising. Just stay in your sovereignty. You are more powerful than you can ever imagine, so do not entertain fear. Ask your guides for help if you slip into fear. 43. Seeing a person's true form or seeing loved ones with a different face -- past life or parallel life. 44. Physically manifesting thoughts and desires more quickly and efficiently. Advice: Monitor your thoughts. All thoughts are prayers. Be careful what you ask for. 45. Left -brain fogginess. Your psychic abilities, your intuitive knowing, your feeling and compassion, your ability to experience your body, your visioning, your expressiveness all emanate from the right brain. In order for this side of the brain to develop more fully, the left brain must shut down a little bit. Normally the left-hemisphere's capacity for order, organization,structure, linear sequencing, analysis, evaluation, precision, focus, problem-solving, and mathematics dominate our often less-valued right brain. What results are memory lapses, placing words in the wrong sequence, inability or no desire to read for very long, inability to focus; forgetting what you are just about to say; impatience with linear forms of communication (audio or written formats); a feeling of spaciness, being scattered; losing interestin research or complex information; feeling bombarded with words and talk and information; and a reluctance to write. Sometimes you feel dull and have no interest in analysis, lively intellectual discussion, or investigation. On the other hand, you might find yourself drawn to the sensate: videos, magazines with photos, beautiful artwork, movies, music, sculpting, painting, being with people, dancing, gardening, walking, and other kinesthetic forms of expression. You may search for spiritual content, even science fiction. Advice: You may discover that if you allow your heart and your right brain to lead you, the left will then be activated appropriately to support you. And someday we will be well-balanced, using both hemispheres with mastery. 46. Dizziness. This occurs when you are ungrounded. Perhaps you have just cleared a big emotional issue and your body is adjusting to your 'lighter' state. Advice: Ground yourself by eating protein. Sometimes 'comfort food' feels right. Don't make any food right or wrong for you. Use your guidance to know what you need at any given moment. Take your shoes off and put your feet in the grass for a couple of minutes. 47. Falling, having accidents, breaking bones. Your body is not grounded or perhaps your life is out of balance. Or your body may be telling you to slow down, examine certain aspects of your life, or heal certain issues. There is always a message. When I recently broke my ankle, I understand that my ankle was taking on what I myself refused to deal with. And that was all of the above. Advice: Stay grounded by taking your shoes off and putting your feet in the grass; even better, lie down on the grass without a blanket under you. Feelthe earth beneath you. Get out in nature. Slow down and pay attention. Be mindful about what you are doing. Feel your feelings when they come up. Stay in the present. Surround yourself with blue light when you are feeling shaky. 49. Heart palpitations. A racing heart usually accompanies a heart opening. It only lasts for a few moments and means that the heart is re-balancing itself after an emotional release. I had one episode that terrified me: I woke up in the middle of the night, my heart pounding. I thought it was going tocome right out of my chest. It only happened once and was, I understand, a huge heart-chakra opening. But I did check it out. There is nothing wrong with my heart. Advice: Remember what I said about getting medical attention when needed. Consult your doctor about any conditions you are not comfortable with. 50. Faster hair and nail growth. More protein is being used in the body. Too bad we can't tell the body where to grow the hair and where not to grow it. (Or can we? Hmmm.) 51. A desire to find your soulmate or twin flame. More than ever before, the idea that we can have a relationship that matches who we are seems more desirable. Advice: The truth is, we have to be the kind of person we want to attract. We have to love ourselves and where we are right now before we can attract a more 'perfect' mate. The work begins at home. Here is how I think it works: Hold the desire for this person in your heart, but without attachment. Expect that someday you will meet someone who is more suited to you, but let go of any expectations as to who this will be and how it will happen. Focus instead on cleaning up your own life and being the kind of person you want to be. Be happy now. Enjoy your life. Then you may see..... 52. Memories surface. Body memories, suppressed memories, images of past lives and/or parallel lives. We are healing and integrating all our 'selves', so expect to have some of these experiences. Advice. Keep in mind that it is best to recall what only what comes to mind, leave the rest alone, don't analyze everything to death (because you will be stuck in the tape loop of infinite issues to process), and feel your feelings as they come up. Ask for help from your guides. View Guestbook Sign Guestbook couldn't ccp both--sorry

Subject: Re: physical signs of spirit shift From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:49:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You want to unclutter yourself from things and people that no longer serve you. Advice: Do it! Hmmm! It all sounds like the symptoms of growing older, becoming more selfish (see above), menopause, and the growing awareness of possibly not having enough time left in which to do all the things we've always wanted to! Methinks the person who originally wrote it read too much phony 'spirituality' into it all... With love, Livia

Subject: Complete garbage. Madness, really [nt] From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:27:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: faster Nail and Hair growth? [nt] From: bill-- Jim, you got something against To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:33:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Of course, Bill, I'm a guitar player [nt] From: Jim To: bill-- Jim, you got something against Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:04:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Janet From: Peg To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:53:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just having a quick lurk before bed and half read your post before I realised how long it was. Most of the first ones applied to me. I had also ascribed it to the menopause. I probably still do as i am very sceptical about this idea of awakening (as I am about practically everything these days). I would like to have a proper read and think about it though so will come back to it later. Peg

Subject: Re: physical signs of spirit shift From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:04:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wondered how that stain appeared on my coffee table. It must have been when I spilled my scotch as I was shifting the bottle of spirits.

Subject: how bout your internals? From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:55:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ha ha--very funny--now read it again. had any interior stains disappear lately? like -no matter how much you drink, you can't get drunk? or losing your taste for it entirely? and missing it but knowing that doesn't work anymore?

Subject: Yes, I get hangovers from very little booze From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:06:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's because I have a big piece of my colon missing which used to re-absorb water and now I get dehydrated easily.

Subject: Worthless, but thanks, Janet [nt] From: OTS To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:43:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: no, you don't underSTAND... From: janet To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:26:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this isn't worthless , not when you've been battling stuff like this for years, haappenning to you when you don't want it to, or when it gets in your way all the time! cases in point: for the last 4 years, I have been frustrated by my increasing inability to sleep in a normal pattern. I can't sleep the full all night expected regimen. i tried pills. I tried herbs. I tried alcohol. I tried music. I tried you name it. couldn't fall asleep when I had to, kept falling asleep when I didn't want to. caffeine put me to sleep at ten AM. my doctor couldn't nail it down. lately I just gave up trying to control it and let it do whatever. Now I wake up like a shot at dawn, get up, feed the cats, clean up the kitchen or my room a bit, get online till i get hungry, eat, and drift back to sleep thru midday. wake in early afternoon about 4 hours later, go out and work in the yard, come in at sunset, eat supper, and a half hour later, crash again for around four hours. wake in mid evening, go online some more, stay at it until deep drag of sleep knocks me out at the keyboard. wake some time later just long enough to kill the lights and the screen, lapse back under. wake like a shot again at sunrise. lather, rinse repeat. i get the sped up time sense. i get the emotional eruptions that pass. i get the energy surges and drops, at really fucked up times. i beat myself up for not being able to 'perform' when i think i should. I had a fight with myself out at the washing machine two days ago, bashing on the machine like thunder, spewing invective at myself for being so mired down and ineffective, then responded to myself in seething, enraged protectiveness, and vowed to kill the abusive side of me who would threaten the blameless innocent half of me who had done no wrong to anybody! If there had been two bodies, there would have been a fistfight on the spot. not psycho. was totally aware of the ridiculousness of the whole scenario. couldn't walk away from it or break in and silence it either. had to let it play out. this monograph helps put a name to such strange experiences and put them in a bigger context. we live in such a pompous, egotistical little world that we are jeered at from childhood about anything we do or say, and we get so we hide , deny, defend or keep silent about our inner world in order to appear cool, normal, together, in control, lto look like everybody else. it's isolating and ignorance-increasing. when something like this makes known that numerous others are experiencing the same things, it breaks the wall down and gives a place to be honest about it sorta like the forum does for people sick of maharaji's world. you know? break the tabos and call it what it is? so your mileage may vary, but I put it here so anyone else who might be having these could know it's not just them. it's far from worthless. instead of jumping in, first thing, with your dismissive and unhelpful take, how bout you stand back and watch, now --- and see who else weighs in? it's a big world out there. and bigger on the inside than even on the outside.

Subject: Re: no, you don't underSTAND... From: Loaf To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello It sounds to me like a natural raction to a number of social and physiological changes. 1. the pattern of family life has changed so that people 'do their own thing' more 2. Economics means that you are not out working in the field for as long as their is daylight. 3.People are worried about the future and the state of the world. This affects priorities and the flight or fight syndrome means that the tribe is getting ready (being manipulated) into either upping sticks or bedding in. 4. There are lots of chemicals in the air and our food which make our hair and teeth grow etc. 5. There is no higher power we all agree on.. so what people end up doing is splintering off into unique bubbles of unchallengable faith Its good to have a context.

Subject: Re: From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:59:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I have liked a lot of your creative writing. You do somehow have the luxury of sleeping when you want. If you were compelled to work an 8 hour scheduled workday, and had compelling activities that kept you up during the early evening, and had a walk, I bet your body would do a shift to adjust. Fiermyalgia folks have trouble sleeping and it really screws them up. Thier bodies trouble them greatly and I hope you arent headed for that. I have heard that protein as the last meal is best for sleep. Deep sleep that is, check what you are eating and maybe adjust it and the times you eat also. If my kids or wife get to bed late, I hate to see them the next day.....or two!! Because it does effect them. And they are not themselves if you ask me. I do have to fight that fight more often than I want certainly, because I DO have to interact with them, and lack of sleep makes them crabby and worse. At least you can cat nap. Nice that you can sleep when you want. But we do need that deep rem sleep, and hopefully you get enough. Me too!

Subject: You guys, honestly!!! From: justanotherdumbbroad To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 06:22:47 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Just read that piece Janet, and its one of those sort of points that sticks in my throat when 'Big Bad Jim' and the other blokes just dismiss it all completely out of hand, like oh well just anotherdumbspiritualtrip/broad/blah. Of course its sounds New Agey and I don't advocate we all join in, but hey can't you guys listen to anybody else's 'truth' Did too many years at the lotus feet dim your powers of perception entirely. We are not talking rational thinking here. Too much is already made in the western world of logico-deducto, in fact so much, that the world, people, society if you like has lost its creative edge. Where does that creativity come from guys?? What struck me was the bald faced macho aggression that said 'shite' it must be shite. Hey we don't understand this with our logico-deductive minds it must be shite. Why did it strike me this way. I just finished reading John Lennon's last interview. Made 20 years ago, released a couple of years ago, it still sounds prophetic even 20 years later. Another bubble burst for me. Like it did when I left the 'master's' feet, my hero John was a woman hitter. In these last words he was sounding kind of remorseful for what he had done that in his life that was bad. That his hard macho aggression allowed him to do that. So he spent the last five years of his life getting in touch with his softer side. His feminine side. Did I say you all had to become pansies now. No. What I am saying is that we already live in a world so hard edged that we are killing ourselves constantly, spiritually, morally, physically, we are fighting to survive and in the end if all there is is a macho 'let's get 'em boys' attitude will we be any better off when the final slaughter has been perpetrated!!! So what then blow the smoke off your throbbing barrel' Is it still loyalty over full discourse? No questions asked, we're better off not knowing, think about it Jim, where are you leading us with your black and white, no nonsense, no room for discussion sort of attitude. Your a clever man. Is there no spirituality whatsoever?

Subject: I wish Gerry enforced SOME identity rule From: Jim To: justanotherdumbbroad Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:34:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too bad people can just hide their identity like this. It's completely rude, not to mention confusing and cowardly. Some bulletin boards require passwords and the like. The concensus among the exes seems to have always been to avoid doing so so that, on any given Sunday, some new person can just pop in and say hi and anway we go, another poster finding the voice that was suppressed along with their mind at the feet of the Master. But this is ridiculous. For all I know, you're someone who'se been posting for years! Hell, you might even be Janet herself, for all I know (although I doubt it). This kind of abuse of anonymity reminds me of ransom notes. If you don't believe in what you're saying enough to come out of the shadows, maybe you shouldn't bother saying it, no? Anyway, I obviously don't share your concerns. There's more than enough to occupy ourselves with here on planet earth for the few decades we've got left that we have to indulge in that kind of nonsense. I also think there's absolutely no truth whatsoever to your claim that we've somehow lost our 'creativity'. If you mean that, in growing up, we leave behind the anything's possible world of childhood imagination, yeah, that's true. It's called growing up.

Subject: Re: I wish Gerry enforced SOME identity rule From: Justin Other To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:59:02 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Jim I don't necessarily want to hide my identity and I dont necessarily want to be rude to you in particular. Its two things, firstly, I get annoyed by anything that's just dismissed out of hand, we did that so often as premies, oh its only ... this world. I think we should let those who have their beliefs have them. It may be nonsense to you, but it isn't to others. Yes we do feel strongly about things but its the way that you dismiss everything that doesn't tally with your beliefs that gets me. I am afraid to post under my real name. Yes it is painful. Secondly, posting anonymously, what difference would it have made if I had posted in my real name. Would your response be any different? I actually meant that as a race we are so busy thinking in straight lines and making everything fit that we actually don't stop enough to take time to be creative. You know what creative means, its not just a childish thing. Its about inventive, new, different, even taking time to see the world in a different way! How else would painters paint! I don't usually post and its so strange that when you actually disagree with someone you want everyone to agree with you, but when someone does is dismissive of you then somehow it becomes a forum issue. Have anonymity banned, etc. Wishing you well . . . PS I am not a troll and I don't post here often.

Subject: No honour in what you're doing From: Jim To: Justin Other Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:59:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim I don't necessarily want to hide my identity and I dont necessarily want to be rude to you in particular. Then don't. What is this? Are you saying that you just can't control yourself? Really, there is no way you hve any right to do this at all. In fact, I think you should be outed. If you've got an identity that we all know and, for some reason, you choose to hide it at one instant just to take pot shots at another poster, why in the world should that kind of anonymity be respected? Go ahead, tell me. I'm all ears. Because personally I see this abuse of anonymity as an entirely different kettle of fish than its normal use. Its two things, firstly, I get annoyed by anything that's just dismissed out of hand, we did that so often as premies, oh its only ... this world. I think we should let those who have their beliefs have them. It may be nonsense to you, but it isn't to others. Yes we do feel strongly about things but its the way that you dismiss everything that doesn't tally with your beliefs that gets me. I am afraid to post under my real name. Yes it is painful. This is faulty reasoning. I got my first Visa card as an ashram premie, believe it or not. Does that mean I shouldn't use credit or, if I do, I should stick to Mastercard? The world is full of stupid nonsense that most definitely deserves the bum's rush. Not surprisingly, people who were once silly enough to join the cult we did might from time to time drop some of that crazy idiocy at our doorstep here. Fine. Get a broom, open the door and sweep that garbage away. Hey, if I'm wrong, tell me how. Think. Speak. Prove your point, if you've got one. Or try this -- change your mind. Whatever. There is absolutely nothing to be afraid of in the process -- if, indeed, you're interested in the truth on whatever's being discussed. And pain? I have no idea what you're talking about. Secondly, posting anonymously, what difference would it have made if I had posted in my real name. Would your response be any different? Give me a break! You posted to me partly, if not entirely, because you knew it was me you were talking to. Why shouldn't I enjoy the same privilege? Especially when you insulted me? I actually meant that as a race we are so busy thinking in straight lines and making everything fit that we actually don't stop enough to take time to be creative. You know what creative means, its not just a childish thing. Its about inventive, new, different, even taking time to see the world in a different way! How else would painters paint! Well, your creativity, if that's what it is, has made you too frightened to post under your own name and bleating about the 'pain' you feel. If that's a product of some fuller vision, who needs it? I don't usually post and its so strange that when you actually disagree with someone you want everyone to agree with you, but when someone does is dismissive of you then somehow it becomes a forum issue. Have anonymity banned, etc. Do you think that other forums or bulletin boards liek this one tolerate your kind of abuse of anonymity? My understanding is that they normally don't. Maybe they're too busy thinking along 'straight' lines but I think they're right. This is an abuse of the medium, no doubt about it. Who are you? Wishing you well . . . PS I am not a troll and I don't post here often. Well, as Forrest Gump said, 'Troll is as troll does'.

Subject: The point was ...... From: OK JIM To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:59:51 (EST) Email Address: none Message: was not about you - the point about the original post was that it ssemed to me to be about there being less of kind of honcho macho aggressive dismissing things out of hand attitude. Why should we just judge everything right or wrong, one can privately, but is it necessary to dismiss things out of hand without some sort of discussion because it doesn't tally with one's own view. You make me out to sound evil and malevolent. I had no intention of aiming anything personally at you whatsoever, you just came with the swathe of others who also dismissed the Janet post without rhyme or reason. It was aimed at all those who just off handedly dismiss everything that doesn't tie in with their reality. Not just you Jim. I have nothing personal against you, no grudge, couldn't really care less what you think. Just want to give others a chance. You seemed to miss the point entirely about my post. The bit about Lennon's remorse at having been such a reckless macho... I am not evil or have any intention of hurting anyone. My concern is with healing the damage done by the cult mindset, in myself and others, and seeing everything for what it is. No big views. Just want a humanitarian kind of outlook now, after years of being sucked into some mindless shit with censorship taking place all the time then, it sort of comes difficult to accept that now. And I am answering despite the fact that you have made your response to me very personal and attacking.

Subject: 'Personal'? That's a joke From: Jim To: OK JIM Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 15:08:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You did indeed direct your first post to me, read it again. And you now completely avoid whatever I've said about the inherent wrongness of your violating the forum rules, few as they are, like this. I have to laugh, though, at your whining about me being too 'personal' with you. That was a joke, right?

Subject: Re: 'Personal'? That's a joke From: me again To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 18:43:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Big bad Jim and the other blokes ... seems to be the reality of what I said, you because you want to lead from the front, and the other blokes because I was talking about all guys who were posting in the same vein. Now I cannot see how this was aimed directly at you because it wasn't. I'm can't be bothered to discuss the semantics anymore you want to understand what you want to understand and that's fine if thats what you want to do. But I never meant it to be taken in such a heavy way. So it's better I say no more because I will never ever ever be able to feel that my viewpoint will be seen by you, not even accepted, by you, I'm not asking for that, but to be heard. That is all. I don't expect you to agree. That was the whole point of this, I just want people to be heard, not dismissed categorically out of hand. Wishing you well M

Subject: Oh shut up already From: Jim To: me again Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:56:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quit snivelling already. This forum has rules, they're not good enough for you. You're special becuase you've got that right amount of creativity that lets you feel the pain or whatever ..... boring!

Subject: There is no honour in what you' From: Jim To: Justin Other Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:44:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Your forum should enforce SOME individuality rule [nt] From: here's a better idea To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 00:16:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'm open to suggestion From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:00:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can we enforce identity rules? I wasn't able to install the new software I have which does what you are saying here. I could try again, though. It does seem unfair to you though, this type of post. Hey, maybe it's Ned Kelley! :)

Subject: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:04:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ger, Maybe someone can help you figure out how to install it, etc. What's it all about anyway? Can you describe it better, show us, something? I'm not the one but I'm sure someone here's up on this stuff.

Subject: Re: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's easy enough to check who it is by the IP# but it's time-consuming and boring unless something really bad is happening. I did my stint being forum sleuth to protect someone who shall be nameless from trolls and it was exhausting. Well, of course I was dumb enough to fall for the game - they wanted me to run around sleuthing - both sides I mean. If you or anyone who is being insulted anonymously feels that it's essential to know who it is, just ask and I'll tell but not now - I'm ready for bed. Richard 2 is, as I've said before, Turner's new incarnation.

Subject: Re: Maybe someone can help you figure it out From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:28:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was a program from Anyboard.com The software was great, with over a quarter million users out there and very refined. Then I purchased server space from these turkeys in NY somewhere to host it and got ziltch help from them. A couple of nice folks here tried to help me but we basically got nowhere. AnyBoard is a powerful forum software with following main features: 1)Post by email. User can post by emailing to a mail box, AnyBoard will retrieve the mail along with attachments and post it into the forum. This feature along with email notifications allows a user to interact with the forum by email alone. (2)Personalize the boards to fit your site design. You choose threaded or non-threaded, aligned or non-aligned formats, inlined or linked pages, framed or single page for the forum, you set different fonts, colors, labels, image icons. You can abitrarily layout the message page. High performance, handle millions of page views per day. 3) Ultra stability. Many sites have run AnyBoard for years without any problem. Smart and strong anti-abuse capabilities let you sleep well at night or on vacation. 4) Complete customization on security levels. Fully featured user type management allows you to control user access individually. 5) integrated file upload (post message and attach files of any type in one submit), auto thumbnail creation for uploaded images 6) private discussions, instant private message alert for recipient. 7) poll creation and management, including mutliple-choice polls. Detect duplicated votes by IP, username, and cookie. 8) rolling news feature. Put selected posts into rolling news linked directly to the message or the board. 9) event scheduling and sign up 10) link submission. also allow user to delete their links 11) chat room, with emoticons message editing. 12) close/open thread. collapse/expand sub-thread rating. Auto-hide low rate messages 13) email validation/notification email alerts to admin. prevent duplicate alerts. tell a friend via email. a feature can be used for the whole site 14) selective moderation. Allow by-passing moderation by user type. extended member profiles unlimited message categories 15) form mail and file upload generic multi-site search engine (go to http://netbula.com for demo) spell checker for major western languages. 16) Tag transformation allows one to enter a symbol to be substituted with html code, such as an image. generate and email vcards from member profiles. 17) Track who's online and their activity in realtime. 18) Site management. Create recursive categories of forums. The problem was with the server not the software, so maybe it's time to try again. I just got very frustrated the last time.

Subject: Re: You guys, honestly!!! From: OTS To: justanotherdumbbroad Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 09:51:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I win the bet. I says to my wife last night: Just wait for those Brits to wake up and read this in the mroning! I bet they'll slice me into cheese cubes. Winner gets a free ticket to Ron Geaves' next Utah seminar. All expenses paid! Let me channel this as clearly as I can. To me, all New Agey stuff is new agey shite no matter the wrapping or warpping. It's some people's pleasure, others' useless pain. Sure, I CAN listen. I skimmed the shit. BUT CAN'T I COMMENT THAT in my humble opinion IT'S ALL CHANNELED CRAP? I think I can here. Why not? I'm glad you stated your opnion that it's not. I stop no one from forming their own opinion about this stuff. I stop no one from posting or reading anything. That's ridiculous. In fact, in discussing with my wife last night the fact that I've been a bad boy again on F7, she then read Janet's post AND GOT SOMETHING OUT OF IT. She's having about, oh 36 or 37 or so of the symptoms lately and can't get a handle on it. She's really feeling a change since she exited less than three months ago. And some of the changes are stupidly manifesting in weird shit. So, thanks, Janet, for assisting my wife. However, I was just dumbfounded that more people haven't sent in 1,000 word essays in response. P.S. Thank God, I'm still not Jim today. Though I may channel him in the next life. Yeah, sure.... Namaste, sisters. To you fellow bullies. BOOOOOOO

Subject: Re: You guys, honestly!!! From: Konni To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 17:50:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can't help myself... (imagine icon of smiley winking face - 'cos I don't know how it's done) ... maybe the wife is manifesting a realisation that there's something 'blokey' about 'blokes' and their responses to such stuff. Despite the length of the post, it had some interesting and worthwhile angles.

Subject: Thanks From: OTS To: Konni Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 17:53:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Konni. Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your take. The wife ain't on my case, however. But I'm glad you're feeling fine and unable to stop from participating here. Good news. Again, the worthwhileness was for the mrs. -- not me. Welcome to you

Subject: STAND BACK, EVERYBODY [nt] From: OTS To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:32:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I said 'you'. please permit others in now. From: i didn't say 'everybody', OTS-- To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:52:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that makes twice, you've tried to shoot it down before people who might find it useful can read it. there is not a uniform code of experience and Groupspeak here. trying to suffocate others from reading a post or speaking honestly what has happened to them is more of the same cult mentality we walked away from in order to come here. you've had your turn, now step back and see what others say. Or is there some reason why you feel you need to dominate this thread and try to keep others from reading and replying in it??? does something in it scare you? janet, the original poster of the topic.

Subject: You [nt] From: OTS To: i didn't say 'everybody', OTS-- Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:55:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I've been a little weepy lately... From: gerry To: OTS Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:50:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ever since I was blocked from reading or writing on Life's Grate, that is. I guess they didn't like my recipe for a hearty winter's soup...

Subject: what's the recipe, ger? From: oooh soup! To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: stop crying and tell me. I'm really into soup lately! janet, being for real

Subject: Well, it's more of an infusion, I guess From: gerry To: oooh soup! Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:10:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: janet, you might not like this soup. It was for cult members only! I know, I'm awful... Soup does sound good though. It's a blustery and cold first day of spring here in Grays Harbor county.

Subject: SOUP??? Did somebody say SOUP??? From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 13:07:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q 'What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup?' A 'Anyone can roast beef.' The cannibal wiped his mouth daintily and said, 'My wife makes great soup. But I'll miss her.' When their little boy wouldn't speak, mom and dad took him to the doctor, who was also baffled. Finally one day the boy said, 'My soup is too cold.' His parents were ecstatic. 'Why haven't you spoken to us up to now?' 'Because the soup was never too cold before.' A guy sat down in a restaurant and ordered a bowl of bean soup. 'I'm sorry,' the waitress said, 'but the customer next to you had the last bowl.' The guy could see that the other customer had left most of the soup. 'Could I have that?' he asked. 'Sure.' So he started eating--but halfway down he discovered a dead mouse. 'Ugh,' he said, 'I just found a dead mouse in the soup.' 'That's as far as I got too,' said the other man.' soup, soup, nothing but stuff about soup www.soupsong.com/index.html

Subject: Maharaji on Women From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:28:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last week was 'International Womens' Day' and in honor of that, below is Maharaji, who now says he never claimed to be God, on 'women.' This is from Maharaji's satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' given in Johannesburg, 3rd May, 1972: 'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.' There you have it, in celebration of International Womens Day. Maharaji says he is God, God came through a woman, and because He came through a woman, He comes in the form of a man, to 'equalise.' Isn't that special and just so....fair and equal? Hey, that makes sense And I'm sure there was a MAHATMA standing over Maharaji just FORCING him to spew those 'concepts.' As Maharaji pontificates in the Atlanta Training video, it was all the Mahatmas who spewed these kinds of concepts, and poor Maharaji in a manner he finds "pathetic" is still having to clean up the mess. Do you think it might have been Fakiranand holding a hammer under his dohti?

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: Gail To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 02:59:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He revised that about ten years ago. 'There have been women perfect hamsters, doncha know!'

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:09:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What happened to my message above?-nt From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:14:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What happened to my message above?-nt From: PatC To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:51:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you out it in the QUOTED MESSAGE field in error. It's happened to me before.

Subject: Uncle PremPal on women - reprise From: cq To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:15:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ((((((((((( ring-g-g-g-g ))))))))))) ***pick up*** 'Hello?' 'Hi, honey, this is Daddy.... is your Mommy near the phone?' 'No, Daddy, she's upstairs in the bedroom with Uncle PremPal,' After a brief pause Daddy says 'But you haven't got an Uncle PremPal, honey!' 'Oh yes I do, and he's upstairs in the bedroom with Mommy right now!' 'Uh, okay, then......here's what I want you do. Put down the phone, run upstairs and knock on the bedroom door and shout to Mommy and Uncle PremPal that Daddy's car's just pulled up outside the house.' 'Okay, Daddy!' A few minutes later the little girl comes back to the phone. 'Well, I did what you said, Daddy.' 'And what happened?' he asks. 'Well, Mommy got all scared, jumped out of bed with no clothes on and ran around screaming, then she tripped over the rug and went flying out the front window and now she's all dead.' 'Oh my God!!!!! And what about your Uncle PremPal?' 'He jumped out of bed with no clothes on too and he was all scared and he jumped out the back window into the swimming pool.....but he must have forgot that last week you took out all the water to clean it, so he hit the bottom of the swimming pool and now he's all real dead too.' ***long pause*** Daddy says, 'Swimming pool? Is this 555-7039?'

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:07:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll play devil's advocate for Rawat. Remember, Joe, he was talking to an audience in Jo'burg where 99% of the premies are Indian. He was just trying to make the women feel wanted in a culture in which they are second class citizens. And none of them were blondes - just brown baby-making machines.

Subject: Second Class Citizens From: Joe To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This satsang was put into the 'Guru Puja' Book, or whatever it was called, bound, and sold at Festivals all over the West for a number of years after he said it. So, Maharaji approved wide dissemination of what he said there. On the other hand, maybe it only applies to Indian woman and not Western women.

Subject: Re: Second Class Citizens From: PatC To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:09:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you know as well as I that one of Rawat's biggest failings is that he seldom looks at the longterm consequences of his words. He thinks he can just rewrite history. And we swallowed all his Hindu sexism in those days blithely because he was god.

Subject: Re: Maharaji on Women From: bolly shri To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:05:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But what about transexuals? bolly shri

Subject: Selling the K chairs? What chairs? From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:50:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A premie friend of mine sent me this: Subj: Knowledge chairs Date: 3/14/2002 1:29:36 PM Eastern Standard Time From:    infoevsofl@earthlink.net The Knowledge chairs have become available for sale to the community. The chairs will be available to be seen this Sunday, March 17, at 1965 Opa Locka Blvd., North Miami, FL between 12 noon and 2 pm. The price is $100.

Subject: THE charis From: Seat Cushion To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:58:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These, my friend, are the chairs upon which aspirants sat to receive the K from M in person. These wing-backed off-white specially made chairs (numbering about 150-200, I believe) were manufactured in the 90's to be used during the Knowledge sessions. They were individually boxed and kept in a warehouse, the address of which is in your notice.

Subject: Re: THE charis From: anti macassers To: Seat Cushion Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:13:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: will my bum absorb enlightenment if I sit on one? will I be absorbed into nirvana? are they worth $100 thats a lot for an old chair with unless it has a lifetime darshan guarantee. How do you spell anti macasas? Love to all

Subject: Selling off holy relics From: Richard To: Seat Cushion Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:58:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now I know I should have kept M's Kissimmee straw hat I picked up at Raja Ji's garage sale in Miami Beach. Even though a house guest sat on it and crushed it, I'm certain it would have netted a fat retirement nest egg. Richard aka Richard

Subject: Re: Selling off holy relics From: bolly shri To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:19:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a fragment of one of mata jis saris somewhere, what am I bid for this peice of silk worn by the then mother of god? It's. from the free for all at Reigate in the mid seventies when she left for India with the other satguru bolly shri

Subject: Anybody want the Lard's Sweater? From: Gail To: bolly shri Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:03:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bidding opens at $500.

Subject: Re: Anybody want the Lard's Sweater? From: Crispy To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:04:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi ya' Gail! How 'bout a trade: I still have an empty flask of perfume he supposedly wore (?!) (according to SS) ;) Chris Rotten Trade

Subject: Flea Bay From: Francesca To: Crispy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:42:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, Flea Bay, the flea market for all devotional knick knacks. I have a piece of one of his hairs, given to me by Anne Johnson. It's on a little card she made that says 'A gift from your Lord.' It was so sweet of her. We were all crazy. --f

Subject: Geez, Francesca, we could clone the Lard! From: Gail To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 15:28:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! How old is the hair. We could replicate him before he became so corrupt and reprogram him to set the PWICKS free!

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: cq To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:48:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: has it got any fleas on it? (if the hair sells, just think what I could do with the fleas' offspring) oops. just given away another money-spinner.

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: Crsipy To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:26:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cq, I think she was referring to flea MARKET (Francesca ? - if I read you right) - a sort of 'premie flea market for trading used trash-treasure'.... besides, LICE would be found in hair... And having survived kitchen service training once with Anne Johnson, I can just bet she would have lye-soaped that strand of hair thrice over to get rid of its fat lice! ....but what about all his fat LIES? I'll be lye-soaping those out of my life for years.....

Subject: Re: Flea Bay From: Francesca To: Crsipy Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 01:06:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, kind of a car crash (er, plane crash?, er yacht crash?) between a premie flea market and eBay. Lord of the fat lies. Also known as Lord of the f-lies! I'd better stop! --f

Subject: 'scuse my dyslexic fingers! (nt) From: that's CRISPY To: Crsipy Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Other SatGuru? From: Opie To: bolly shri Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 18:10:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....left for India with the other satguru What, where?! other Satguru? I thought there could only be one at any one time. Sheesh ya gotta be joking? Oh I see PremPal - SatPal, all oneness, merged in brotherly love. That's ok then. :)

Subject: What is the Knowledge? From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:24:22 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Having narrowly survived a terrifying rocket attack by the forces of evil on last Saturday’s local ex-premie dinner, I’m of a mind to contemplate, and try to comprehend, a subject which profoundly pre-occupied me for my entire adult life: the experience of Knowledge. (Just joking about the rocket attack: I actually went to bed chuckling about it.) I was talking to a premie last night about this “experience of Knowledge”. She reminded me that there is such a thing: over the last 18 months I’ve forgotten Knowledge as a discrete entity, and have assimilated the nice feelings I once associated with it into everyday consciousness. A little more specifically, the extreme highs associated with meditation, events, etc have become a thing of the past. I’m glad about this, as they always brought more than their fair share of accompanying lows - to say nothing of having these “lows” magnified by the feeling that one is “not in that place”. This in turn brought guilt, lowered self-esteem, and in time the kind of emotional flattening that (dare I say it?) I see in many premies. (Lesley, my new guru, eloquently describes it as “flatling on Mr Rawat’s meditation”, or words to that effect.) Anyway, I think few people here would argue that there is such an experience as “Knowledge”, tho I’d guess that most no longer attribute it to anything metaphysical, let alone to the grace of Guru Maharaji - the King Farouk of contemporary cult leaders. So what is it then? I posted an article on “neurotheology” here a while back, which reinforced my view that “Knowledge” is more or less the same - no doubt there are differences of detail - as all techniques which calm the central nervous system. In recent times I have experienced “Knowledge” during a relaxation technique taught to me by my doctor, during times of particularly lucid communication with others about deep subjects, during walks on the beach in the sunshine, when trying out a yoga meditation that a holistic healer suggested to me, and - strangely enough - when drinking beer recently with an instructor friend. (He’s a charismatic guy, but I don’t think it was a darshan experience (-: ) (Others have had apparently the same experiences from brushes with death, starvation, high altitudes, etc.) Anyway, despite the fact that there were four very different techniques, and many separate effects on my psyche, Maharaji had somehow always convinced me that Knowledge was “one thing”. I guess one’s brain goes into neutral when one is a confused 20-year-old who knows nothing about projection, and when you take on a master who seems to have an answer for everything, and who fits in with all the eastern ideas you absorbed in the hippie era, and who trades heavily on the significant psychic energy projected at him from an audience - but that’s another story. I’m not a fanatic for the rational mind - we surely have vastly more to us than that - but I have learned after extricating myself from the psychic malaise and cultural drek of Prem-world that the rational mind is something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you could lose yourself - just as surely as you can lose yourself by ignoring the needs of your emotional self or your body. (I’m not saying these are separate systems, BTW. The emotions permeate the body via peptide networks, the ‘rational’ and ‘emotional’ aspects of the brain are endlessly interconnected, etcetera.) So, what my new friend the rational mind has helped me to see since abandoning M’s apparently sinking ship is that Knowledge is not, after all, “one experience” - but several, with each of these experiences being accorded more or less “volume” depending on circumstance, modality (meditation, satsang, service, darshan), meditation technique (1, 2, 3, 4) and probably dozens of other things, like time of day and maybe even digestion. So far as I can discern, the “experience of Knowledge” - that is to say, the brain activity, or sometimes lowered activity, induced by the four techniques, sitting in videos, attending events, et al - and more subtle things such as having faith and becoming receptive to the idea of devotion - is actually a number of experiences. So far I’ve been able to identify six: 1. Calm, peace, reduced anxiety and fear 2. Euphoria, bliss, joy 3. Feeling in the sway of a superior power 4. Reduced concern about time 5. A reduced feeling of separation between myself and others, or the world 6. A sharpened consciousness: increased “focus”. Bearing in mind that I’m not wedded to this breakdown, but am putting it out as a kind of draft proposal to get feedback, I’d describe these six attributes as the things that go to make up “the experience of Knowledge”. (And probably the experience deriving from most other central nervous system-calming approaches.) (I hasten to add that whilst the above does derive from my own experience, most of it has been written up by neurologists et al. I.e. I’ve plundered a lot of other people’s ideas in this “neurotheology” area.) There seem to me to also be sub-attributes to the above six experiences, such as: ineffability (it being beyond words) a deep “knowing” or certainty transiency - it comes and goes acceptance love (of self, others, guru) [and more] To me, the sub-attributes on the second list are secondary: they derive from the first. For example you feel an “inner certainty” because the experiences of timelessness and/or euphoria (etc) are so undeniably real to you. I don’t know whether there is a God of any description who plays a role in all this - I might have to be God to know that. But what I am increasingly confident about is that these six primary attributes of “Knowledge” derive from very specific brain activities, which are mediated by meditation and other Knowledge modalities: 1. Calmness and reduced anxiety appear to be related to inhibition of the amygdala (part of the cerebellum) and its projection pathways. 2. Bliss, I’m guessing, will derive from good old-fashioned serotonin release. 3. Presence of a superior power: If you apply the right electrical frequency to the temporal lobes, you can induce the “sensed presence” which people interpret as grace, or God’s presence. (Subjects even do this in a lab wearing a hat full of magnets and electrodes, and having been forewarned of the effect - so you can imagine how easy it is to believe in this “sensed presence” when it is engendered by meditation in a darkened room, after you’ve been inculcated with ideas about the Truth within, as revealed by your friendly local incarnation of God.) This “presence” is achieved (scientists think) when the left temporal lobe - where our sense of “self” is chiefly housed - becomes “separated” from the right. The left thus perceives the right as a separate entity - but still something within us: thus the “sensed presence” phenomenon - which we as premies called God. This science is getting so good now that researchers can statistically “predict”, from his brain patterns, a subject’s past history with paranormal experiences, as distinguished from God experiences, as distinguished from neither type of experience. 4. The sense of timelessness is believed to arrive when the brain’s “orientation association area”, which calibrates time, is derived of data (as it is in meditation). 5. Reduced separation of oneself from world: In SPECT imaging analysis of meditators, their superior parietal lobes darkened (i.e. quietened right down). This lobe is responsible for handling information about the body’s orientation in space. Deprived of data, this region will ultimately delete the ability to separate one’s body from the rest of the universe - a sense of infinite space. 6. Sharpened focus: In SPECT imaging, the brain’s prefrontal cortex - the “seat of attention” - lights up during meditation. (The above explanations are a bit simplistic: there are overlaps I haven’t mentioned, and doubtless many things which haven’t yet been discovered.) Anyway, does anyone else agree that “Knowledge” is not one phenomenon but several? Should the experience of seeing light be added to the “primary” list? What about the tunnels and divine beings of near death experiences? (Traceable to the Sylvian fissure in the right temporal lobe, BTW. I know two premies who have died on operating tables and talked to Maharaji about whether to “go or stay”.) Visions of Maharaji or the Holy Family? (Some premies had them, in the 1970s at least.) Finally, given that these experiences are so ubiquitous through human history - and if today’s hunter-gatherers are any guide, they go way back beyond history - what purpose do they serve? When I say purpose I mean evolutionary purpose. Perhaps the leading researcher into the “God-in-the-brain” field is Dr Michael Persinger, who says: “The God Experience has had survival value. It has allowed the human species to live through famine, pestilence, and untold horrors. When temporal lobe transients [a phenomenon underlying some of the above] occurred, men and women who might have sunk into a schizophrenic stupor continued to build, plan, and hope.” I find that fairly persuasive - tho I admittedly don’t really know whether the God experience is yet in the DNA. The ancestors of a few of us (25%?) mutated an enzyme to digest milk in less than 6000 years - so it may be possible. (The earliest evidence of religion I can find is a sacrificial altar 3-400,000 years old.) On the other hand the psycho-neuro complex of experiences we call “God” is probably much more - well, complex - than milk. The first human tools were made a staggering 2.6 million years ago, by Homo habilis (“Handy Man”). With them must have been created the conceptual nexus been creator (tool-maker) and creation (tool). The natural world surrounding Homo habilis must have seemed an endless source of marvel, as the frontal cortex expanded, thus expanding his ability to aesthetically appreciate, intellectually understand and physically control that world. IMO it may have been a short conceptual jump from “I make tools” to “Something big and powerful made me, and all this.” From “I can appreciate, understand and control my world” to “Someone appreciates, understands and controls me”. So I wouldn’t be too surprised if one day we get archaeological evidence suggesting that God goes back a million years or more: if so, amply long enough for him to have entered the genome. (Of course there would have been large differences in God-susceptibility between individuals, just as experiments today yield wide variations in emotional response to religious images and suggestions between individuals.) For a moment, let’s assume it’s true that the spiritual impulse is encoded in our hardwiring. That’s bad news for anyone who wants to get a friend or relative out of Maharaji’s or any other cult, for obvious reasons: to a reasonable extent we’d be fighting entrenched nature rather than overlaid conditioning. Indeed it may well explain the apparent stupidity of even highly intelligent premies - and there are many - in resisting common sense and the evidence of their senses with logical dead-ends, teleological loops and magical thinking. (You should see some of the emails I get.) Anyway, I went off on a loop of my own there. Let’s return to the question of the “God” installed by evolution - and finish by looking at what has happened to it. We might infer from modern hunter-gatherers that this earlier God was less hierarchically inclined, and was less often manipulated in the causes of human greed and power, than today’s God. So what departure from evolutionary lifeways allowed him to be hijacked by individuals and institutions - from Sumerian priests to the fourth century Catholic Church, right through to (tin drumroll, scattered applause, party whistles) his holiness Shri Guru Maharaji - for the purposes of personal power and gain? Was it the agricultural revolution, whose more concentrated, less mobile populations had to be welded together and controlled more tightly than did nomadic tribes - by authoritarian structures? What better authority, and authoritarian, than God? Are monotheism, and religious oppression - and of course the serfdom they enabled - the result of the agricultural revolution? Are Maharaji, and the $A100 million in resources he has accumulated for himself - that is, deprived his serfs of - the end result of the domestication of rye? That’s my answer, but I’m open to argument. Regards, John

Subject: WOW!!! A ***BEST OF FORUM*** nomination? [nt] From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:20:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: bill To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 20:31:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Thank you for your great posts that I have sent to others. You cover so much terrain in your post but on re-rereading, what occurs to me is that your lifelong identification with m and this so called 'knowledge', effects your take on normalcy. You said: ''In recent times I have experienced “Knowledge” during a relaxation technique taught to me by my doctor, during times of particularly lucid communication with others about deep subjects, during walks on the beach in the sunshine, when trying out a yoga meditation that a holistic healer suggested to me, and - strangely enough - when drinking beer recently with an instructor friend. (He’s a charismatic guy, but I don’t think it was a darshan experience (-: ) (Others have had apparently the same experiences from brushes with death, starvation, high altitudes, etc.)'' Just regular folks that look pretty beat walking past us in the local Mall have also had many elevated experiences that were unconnected with any concept of knowledge and didnt require extreme activities to trigger. We of course figured we were on to more than the average bear would experience in thier day to day, but I have been humbled into seeing that well, no, I was just stupid, and regular folks had me beat in just about, well ALL catagories. The 6 pillars of the light of rawat, Were trumped by the worldly idiots in thousands of ways. Although I would diss thier experiences as mundane, and hardly reflective of enlightenment or capable of enjoying life as it is MEANT to be enjoyed. ''1. Calm, peace, reduced anxiety and fear-- Increased anxiety because no 'that place' was attained once again during time spent 'inside'. Fear that No completion was happening and 'this life' was being wasted and the masters carrot was always too far away and unintelligible. No peace because the foundation of my self perception was tied to Nothing except a 'vibe' that was 'IT' but didnt offer anything. 2. Euphoria, bliss, joy The 'euphoria' had all the same attributes of any person around me gushing about thier favorite rock musician, (dead heads) ect, people who just saw a celebrity (even a local politician) or people that I saw shake hands with a rich person and get all effected, people that see a baby, ect ect ect. 3. Feeling in the sway of a superior power Folks watching tv! Women responding to thier dominating husbands, Husbands responding to thier dominating wives, people at work ! all the religious folks, 4. Reduced concern about time prison can help provide that ! Also, friday afternoon and the paycheck is in your hand, It is 5 minutes after work.. someone is working on your privates ! 5. A reduced feeling of separation between myself and others, or the world THAT one came perhaps because m gave us such a seperation in the first place, and you were young when you got hooked, and so you didnt have the normal adjustments to the world around you that other kids worked out in thier twenties. Joining any group, even a group at the bar would have provided the same comraderie or even way better. 6. A sharpened consciousness: increased “focus”.'' It is only because of the lifetime involvement with the cult that would make you say such an arrogant thing, I know you were trying to just comment on results of meditation, but ''INTEREST'' in any subject or activity automatically increases our concentration. OR even the threat of consequence will sharpen our focus, say, you just were told your writing work of late was lacking and your boss suggested you were on thin ice and better shape up. Automatic sharpening of focus ! And without any cult related help ! Wringing the cult out of us takes time.

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: Dep =) To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 14:01:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I’m not a fanatic for the rational mind - we surely have vastly more to us than that - but I have learned after extricating myself from the psychic malaise and cultural drek of Prem-world that the rational mind is something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you could lose yourself - just as surely as you can lose yourself by ignoring the needs of your emotional self or your body. Agreed John, The rational mind is definitely useful, something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you lose an important part of yourself. IMO, however, to be happy, we must recognize the limitations of mind and learn to live with contradiction and paradox. The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. The child is father of the man.

Subject: Not true, Dog From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 20:33:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. I know that you never read anything beside old, new agey garbage but, if you did, you might want to expose yourself to some of the advances in brain science of the last decade or so. We're getting there, Dog, slowly but surely. We understand sooooooo much more about moods and emotions than before. That's why we can regulate disorders and imbalances better. And as for the deeper questions about love and happiness, we're learning much about that too, in a scientific sense. It's funny to hear you go on and on about the limitations of the 'intellect'. You're in the dark by your own choosing.

Subject: Re: So true, Dog From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 23:06:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez, here we go again. I say the intellect has limitations and you go ballistic. IMO we are more than just our rational mind. But hey, if you want to spend the rest of your life shackled to logic, go right ahead. To me, that's like living in one room of your house. Why limit yourself? Throwing out heart and living in only in mind is just as bad as throwing out mind and living only in heart. Both are half-assed? Use both mind and spirit, logic and intuition! The Egyptian pharaohs thought they had it all figured out so did the Romans so did the Incas etc. They didn't. We are creatures not the creator. We will never figure this trip out. The planet has been here for what, billions of years. We've been here as a species for about 200,000 years, and we've had science and technology for about 200 years. And we have the arrogance to think we can figure it all out! That kind of arrogance makes me want to puke in my soup. And what makes you think we are equipped to figure everything out? A bee sees 200 skys and we see only one sky. Maybe we are physically incapable of figuring it all out. I like you to figure out logically why you fell in love with Laurie. And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? No thanks! I’ll use both logic and intuition. I’ll use both mind and spirit. The mind is a good servant but a lousy master.

Subject: Wow, Dog, how astute From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:39:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? Main Entry: New Age Function: adjective Date: 1956 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for nature, spirituality, and metaphysics Get it?

Subject: Re: Wow, Dog, how astute From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 11:04:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And another thing about all this 'new agey garbage' you talk about. It happens to be Buddhist philosophy, which is about 2,600 years old. Is that too new age for you, or do you prefer philosophies from the Pleistocene era? Main Entry: New Age Function: adjective Date: 1956 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for nature, spirituality, and metaphysics Get it? --- Wow, 2600 years! That's a long time.

Subject: Here, from today's National Post From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:00:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an article from today's National Post as just one of millions of examples of how we're learning about the brain things we never dreamed of. Don't get hung up in the specific, arguably trivial aspect of this. Think of the implications. And ask yourself if there's a single book on your bookshelf that even begins to touch on this process of inquiry and learning. My guess -- there isn't. I bet all you've got is Shakti Gawain (sorry, Dog, don't know where she came from. Somewhere in my right parietal cortex, I guess. But you get the idea.) Grocery bill too high? Blame right parietal cortex Roger Highfield The Daily Telegraph LONDON - Scientists think they have figured out what goes on in the brain when a shopper browsing in a supermarket decides to buy something. The mind's 'shopping centre' -- the part that becomes active when a customer selects one brand of ketchup, cola or whatever in preference to another -- has been pinpointed in the right parietal cortex, a region of the brain just above and at the back of the right ear. This finding could push back the frontiers of consumer science. Researchers speculate they could reveal the brain processes that control more important choices people make, such as spouse, house and career, quite apart from helping to shape advertising and marketing strategies. In the not-too-distant future, manufacturers of cereals, soft drinks and ketchup could be screening their customers' brains, as well as consulting conventional consumer and taste panels, to discover why one brand sells better than another. The study will be published in the journal Neural Plasticity. The researchers measured electrical activity in the heads of shoppers browsing in a virtual copy of a supermarket. They found that when a choice is made there is a crackle of activity in the right parietal cortex. This brain region seems to reveal 'brand equity,' the worth of a product. Researchers are now studying whether this region is bigger and more active in women than in men or compulsive shoppers. A team from the Open University and London Business School relied on a technique called magnetoencephalography (MEG) to measure brain activity in four men and four women during the second or so it takes for a person to select a product. The MEG scanner looks like a glorified professional hair dryer and is too bulky to be portable. Instead, the shoppers went on a virtual tour of the supermarket and, as the scanner watched what was going on in their heads, they were invited to choose between different brands by pressing a button. The team found the brain was hugely active during the 2 1/2 seconds it took for the button to be pressed, revealing a flow of activity, starting at the back of the brain and moving to the front. 'Within 80 milliseconds the visual cortex, where information from the eye is processed, responds as we perceive the choice items,' said Professor Steven Rose, one of the team's leaders. 'A little later, regions of the brain associated with memory and speech become active, when we begin to interpret the image and vocalize it silently -- saying the name of the brand in our heads -- especially if we don't have a strong preference. 'Finally, after about 800 milli-seconds -- and this was the surprising thing -- if and only if they really do prefer one of the choice items then a region called the right parietal cortex becomes active. This lights up if and only if you actually do prefer Coke to Pepsi or Pepsi to Coke.' The right parietal cortex is the region of the brain involved in making conscious decisions -- 'in this experiment about shopping choices, but maybe for more important life choices too,' he added, listing holiday destinations and choice of mate as examples. MEG uses an array of 344 devices known as SQUIDs (superconducting quantum interference devices) that work at very low temperatures -- they are actually bathed in liquid helium -- to measure minute fluctuations in the magnetic fields that dance around inside a living brain.

Subject: Forget about this is your brain on God . . . From: Pullaver To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:36:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is your brain on a shopping spree. Of course! Here we were looking for God in the frontal lobes and meanwhile marketing and adverstising executives have already mapped out the right parietal cortex to help them sell more Coca Cola. Can a bar-code implanted in our forehead to tell us where God is, who we are and most importantly, what to buy, be that far off?

Subject: We men are screwed... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 21:14:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another tidbit from similiar research shows that when a man sees a pretty face, the same regions of the brain light up as are stimulated by a hit of cocaine.

Subject: Cherished experiences From: PatD To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 16:20:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. The intellect knows they exist & has even put names to them in order to distinguish them from ...say,hate & fear which also exist of course. I'd suggest to you that if you want to deepen your understanding of what makes human beings tick,that you abandon 1st off all the mental detritus that goes with Rawatworld. The principal assumption to dump is the notion that it is in some way possible to plug yourself into the mains & have God blow up your brain,whereupon you will really understand all there is. You ever read the story about the guy who passengers on a broken down train spotted fucking a goat..well the case came to trial last week or so,& the judge doubted that anyone could get to the bottom of his motivation. So there's another conundrum you can add to the list.

Subject: Rawat is a prostitute From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:41:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very interesting for all sorts of reasons,but doesn't I feel get to the bottom of Rawat's con. Or indeed really explain the religious instinct: the 2 things are joined at the hip. I came across this quote the other day,it's from a book Some Dogma's of Religion(McTaggart) which I haven't read but intend to. ''a conviction of harmony between ourselves & the universe at large'' is the definition of the religious instinct. The 'at large' is the thing that struck me because in Rawatworld the universe is within. 'at large' also implies a connection that can only be made through the intellect,so philosophy,theology,science,all things which were denigrated in his world, are important to understanding even though it's through a glass darkly. I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious'to begin with. His con is to offer a physical explanation to the question 'why'. Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to. Power without responsiblity is the prerogative of the harlot down the ages. That's what Rawat's K is really all about. ps. you ever read Guns,Germs & Steel, explains why you guys don't get on with the abo's.(joke)

Subject: Re: Rawat is a prostitute From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:59:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious' to begin with.'' That's my take on it too. I know I'm a moralist and not very consumerist. If Rawat had been a basically decent person and not the greedy sleaze that he is, I may still be in the cult because I enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. I might have continued to forgive him all his neo-Hindu New Age nonsense if he'd been mensch. No, I couldn't stand the master crap most of all.

Subject: Re: Rawat is a prostitute From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 23:15:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I'm beginning to think that Rawat's non-religion religion was/is tailor made for materialists (not that I have anything against people whose instincts run counter to mine)& that his con has most truly hurt those whose instincts were really 'religious' to begin with.'' That's my take on it too. I know I'm a moralist and not very consumerist. If Rawat had been a basically decent person and not the greedy sleaze that he is, I may still be in the cult because I enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. I might have continued to forgive him all his neo-Hindu New Age nonsense if he'd been mensch. No, I couldn't stand the master crap most of all. --- PatC, My sentiments entirely. I too enjoyed the idea of a community of kind neighbors and getting high with a little help from my friends. But M was a little too much. I read somewhere that people who attend religious services live an average of seven years longer than those who don't. So this type of community has health benefits too.

Subject: community has health benefits too From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:46:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, Here in San Francisco people form their own weird and wonderful communities. It's the most community-minded place I've ever lived. I guess that's why most premies left ages ago and went back to the communities that suited them best - gay, artsy, activist, spiritual etc. Yes, Rev Rawat is definitely not community-minded. He was always in it for himself only. I like reading history more than anything and every leader seems to have been deeply flawed including Gandhi and King and obviously Napoleon, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and the current crop of Muslim Madass Insanes. Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: Guns, Germs and Steel From: Jim To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:10:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I got a couple of chapters in and got distracted. Should I get back in and swim to the other side? It was really quite interesting, most of what I read. In fact, I think I will. Okay, never mind. Nice talking with you, I'm sure. :)

Subject: Thanks, John. Lots of food for thought From: PatC To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:15:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You concluded: ''Was it the agricultural revolution, whose more concentrated, less mobile populations had to be welded together and controlled more tightly than did nomadic tribes - by authoritarian structures? What better authority, and authoritarian, than God? ''Are monotheism, and religious oppression - and of course the serfdom they enabled - the result of the agricultural revolution? Are Maharaji, and the $A100 million in resources he has accumulated for himself - that is, deprived his serfs of - the end result of the domestication of rye?'' Maybe we should blame it on Gilgamesh. The ancient Sumerians were polytheistic. Certainly we know that cities, laws and contracts arose from agriculture - specifically from the need for cooperation in irrigation projects. Gilgamesh, like all the former kings of Uruk, was preordained to marry Inanna, the Queen of Heaven, after which he was destined to be chopped up and used as sacrificial ferttilizer. Well, Gilgamesh rebelled and, after many adventures, returned to Uruk to reign justly and wisely for the rest of his life thus establishing the first male-dominated kingdom. Till then the main ''deities'' had been Venus-like fertility goddesses to whom males were sacrificed. Of course it wasn't as neat and chronological as that but, after Gilgamesh, living male kings were regarded as the representatives of the deity on earth. (At the same time that this was happening in Mesopotamia, the Jews were evolving into monotheists too.) I thoroughly enjoyed your theories of brain-chemistry and am doing my own reading on entheogenic (god-awareness-inducing) drugs, devices and other triggers. Maybe K was many different separate experiences but we will never really know because I can't know what you felt and vice versa. The most important thing that you said for me was that you had integrated the good feelings that you formerly associated with K into your everyday life. Without all the Hindu guru mumbo-jumbo, feeling great, enjoying life and being happy is so much simpler and honest.

Subject: My new guru From: Lesley To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:51:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting post, John, I can see that you have also been engaged, as I have, in trying to understand what this god thing is all about. As your new guru, I must request, though, that you quote me right, the term is emotional flatlining, and no typos are tolerated! I am indebted to my new guru, Xena Warrior Princess, for a spirited and colourful telling of the story known as Hinduism. It was fascinating, and very helpful to have that particular story told back to me with such verve. After all, it is the story that Mr Rawat and his indian mahatmas grew up on, it is the story upon which the story they told us is based. Drawing a wider bow here, bear with me, just recently I saw someone interviewed on the telly, she had been nominated for an oscar and he was asking her how she felt about it. She said something along the lines of, I inhabit a place called Planet Oscar, which she described a bit, she also added it did not have a lot to do with the real world, and that it was temporary. I had to applaud her, that was a pretty impressive effort to assimilate what was happening to her, and retain a measured perspective on life, to avoid being swept away from her own commonsense on the tide of blissful feelings and new experiences, that somehow she knows are not safe to base her emotional security on. Do you not think it is possible, John, that these stories, with their devilish aspects as well as godly ones, are nothing more or less than our attempts to assimilate the, at the time, being such small children, overwhelming experience of learning what our parents were. I am suggesting this as an alternative to your idea that we might be genetically programmed to revere a mythical entity called God. Maybe just genetically favoured by our ability to sit at the feet of our parents! In other words, evolutionarily inevitable in that people who listened closely to their parents survived, and therefore procreated, more readily than those who didn't.

Subject: neuroKnowledge From: Gregg To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 13:14:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fascinating recapitulation of neurotheologic speculation as it applies to 'Knowledge.' (Funny, actually, the use of the K word to describe an ineffable experience...in a sense it's like the yearning of a lot of Hindus (esp. the Maharishi) and New Agers to be taken as seriously as scientists in their effort to describe the nature of reality.) Have you read Pascal Boyer's book 'Religion Explained?' (or, as his critics would have it, 'Religion explained away.') I found it fascinating and along the lines of your comments above. As someone who finds nothing more commonsensical than evolutionary pschology yet has more of a soft spot for mystical experience than most of these realist/materialist/scientist types, I have another theory about why we seem to be hardwired to yearn for those experiences. We all have pretty strong feelings of identity, mostly derived from identification with our name, our body and our memories. Some meditative disciplines deliberately undermine this identity mechanism, and i believe the resulting state can be one of alignment with our true potential. I even think one can become a better hunter and a better gatherer and a better dancer and a better mate once one becomes less selfish and more open in every sense of the word. Sure, there are some selfish and violent rulers of men who give 'Social Darwinism' a bad name. But, being social animals, those of us who are more efficient at creating a rich and nurturing social environment would have genetic advantages. And, John, I gotta agree that those things that make up the 'experience of Knowledge' can only get better and realer after leaving the Fraudulent One. Gregg

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: wolfie To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:37:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, puh, no argument, just roll another one and lets talk the night away. No honest, I don't know where you wanna go. We can rationalize everything, why we can digest milk and since when, why we like to dance and where and when we started to like it. That to love someone is brainchemestry based on whatever. This can be an intersting and sophisticated conversation. You will end up with the question when did the univers begin. The Big Bang. Why is a why a why and does not mean and, where all those names came from, there are explanations why we speak different languages, good intersting and maybe this can help me here and ther but it is completly useless to think about how the world would look like if the Big Bang would not had happend, anyway then it would not be possible to ask a question like this. I think we can and should anylyse what we have done in the time where we followed M and it is obvious that thinks still happend very individual. Why am I not completly crazy, or am I completly crazy and don't realize it. Can anybody give me the proof that I exist. Maybe that is acidphilosophy. But how humanevolution has been affected by acid, more in a destructive way or more emancipation. I don't know, my prespectives are changing. I would like to say that knowledge is the same for me it is based on that feeling how it feels for me when I'm aware of my breath this is the same in one way how it feels when I walk on my feet. This is what I can feel, but it feels differenet when my feets are cold but still I know that I can trust the ground I'm walking on. Nomands believed that they keep the earth moving by walking, funny to see ist like that. So far I know you are living in Aussiland, very intersting cultur the natives there. What does it need to understand and respect a complet different culture. How can I respect another culture that is based on magic when I deny any magic. Is there something holy we share all toghether. I mean yes and this is that we should respect the unknowing. We are nonknowing creatures and this we should celebrate, maybe this is more fun then to celebrate the knowing. Okay enough is enough....this is my wednesday 5 o'clock philosphy and I thank you very much for your wonderful post cause it left me completly unknowing where you wanna go. .......just roll another one......or do you have some good wine.....ciao........wolfie......to be or not to be????????????????

Subject: Re: What is the Knowledge? From: AV To: wolfie Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:11:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmm, story of guy who loves to go to the ball game, he really enjoys himself,he's quite happy, absorbed ,no problemo; then one day someone comes along and discovers the nodes in the brain that are stimulated by watching a ball game can be accessed by acupuncture points, and the only way they can be triggered is by a cattle prod up the left nostril....ball game? cattle prod? u decide ;~) (interesting article tho')

Subject: Responses From: John Macgregor To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:09:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesley said: “Do you not think it is possible, John, that these stories, with their devilish aspects as well as godly ones, are nothing more or less than our attempts to assimilate the, at the time, being such small children, overwhelming experience of learning what our parents were. 'I am suggesting this as an alternative to your idea that we might be genetically programmed to revere a mythical entity called God. Maybe just genetically favoured by our ability to sit at the feet of our parents! 'In other words, evolutionarily inevitable in that people who listened closely to their parents survived, and therefore procreated, more readily than those who didn't.” Well, you don’t say which stories you are talking about. (I didn’t write anything about stories.) Assuming you might be referring to something like the God story in general, I think the answer to your question might be unknowable. Clearly we’re programmed to love our parents. Are we programmed to love God in addition to that - or merely as a by-product (perhaps a pathological variation) of parental love? I’m biased toward the idea that God is a separate bunch of code - tho no doubt reinforced by the parent-love code. Partly because the God experience feels somewhat different, from the inside, to the child experience. And partly because the God experience and the childhood experience can be parsed into innumerable elements, surely only a few of which will overlap. E.g. I mentioned six separate brain activities alone which help to make up the God experience, none of which have been identified with childhood so far as I know. And that still leaves devotion, faith, excitation of the CNS via over-stimulation (chanting, singing) and more. Joseph Campbell - who had as good a handle on the God of the psyche as anyone - talked about God’s “father aspect”. I’d guess that you are talking about that aspect - as being common to children and, say, premies. Insofar as that aspect goes I’d imagine you’re right. I just think there is quite a lot more to God than the father aspect, and this argues for separate coding to me. Pat D said: “That's very interesting for all sorts of reasons,but doesn't I feel get to the bottom of Rawat's con. Or indeed really explain the religious instinct: the 2 things are joined at the hip.” I wasn’t setting out to explain the Rawat con, Richard D. I was trying to understand what the experience of Knowledge is. I think the Rawat con revolved around the experience of Knowledge, but the experience was a discrete thing. “Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to.” Hmm, I’m afraid you lost me. I don’t think I tried to explain Rawat’s explanation for anything. I just looked at the experience of Knowledge, as we called it. I finished with a bit of a digression about the cultural origins of modern, exploitative (as opposed to tribal) religion. If that’s the explanation you’re disagreeing with, please give your reasons. Gregg said: “As someone who finds nothing more commonsensical than evolutionary psychology yet has more of a soft spot for mystical experience than most of these realist/materialist/scientist types, I have another theory about why we seem to be hardwired to yearn for those experiences. “We all have pretty strong feelings of identity, mostly derived from identification with our name, our body and our memories. Some meditative disciplines deliberately undermine this identity mechanism, and i believe the resulting state can be one of alignment with our true potential. I even think one can become a better hunter and a better gatherer and a better dancer and a better mate once one becomes less selfish and more open in every sense of the word. “Sure, there are some selfish and violent rulers of men who give 'Social Darwinism' a bad name. But, being social animals, those of us who are more efficient at creating a rich and nurturing social environment would have genetic advantages.” I think you’re on to a good subject: looking at the adaptive advantages of religious experience and religious faith is something evolutionary biologists haven’t done much of, so far as I know. I’m not so sure about the advantages of undermining our identity thru meditative disciplines, tho. I found that to have made me less effective as a “hunter” (achiever in the world), not more so. The country where these disciplines are most practised, India, wasn’t functioning too well last time I was there. In fact I was in a group of 60,000 people who were having it explained to them why the rotund personage on the stage at that moment was the reincarnation of Krishna, a Hindu god who never historically existed. They cheered wildly. On the other hand I imagine evolutionary biologists may one day start to put in their own context the massive repatternings which take place throughout our lives - realisations, growth, expanded consciousness, call it what you will - which is sometimes “spiritually” mediated. This ability to intellectually, cognitively and emotionally - but not biologically - “mutate” in the course of a single lifespan is something I’m keenly aware of since leaving Maharaji - because so much of it has happened for me in that brief time. It’s a huge factor in life, and one which is so far as I know not much-addressed by evolutionary theory to date, presumably because they haven’t even got an agreed picture of humans as static entities yet, let alone as dynamic ones who change so vastly within a single lifetime. Richard Dawkins is pretty wedded to the idea of Nature being “red in tooth and claw” - i.e. something of a perennial bloodbath - so I doubt if he’d agree with your idea that becoming less selfish is adaptive. I’m not saying he’s right, BTW. I agree that people who create nurturing environments would probably have better reproductive success. But I’m entirely unclear how much religious experience - so counter-productive to nurturing environments in our recent experience - would have contributed to these nurturing environments. Maybe Maharaji gave entrenched spiritual instincts a kind of postmodern spin, and manipulated them to simply enrich himself and further his own power. In fact, he did, right? Maybe there was always an evolutionary arms race between these instincts (which historically helped most of us) and the other instincts to manipulate them for personal advancement - the ones which M acted on. Maybe the 30-year Maharaji experiment was simply a microscopic tilt of the evolutionary see-saw, and now EPO and F7 are applying a microscopic tilt back the other way. On the other hand I could be talking complete bollocks. McDuck tells me that Terrance McKenna has a theory that humankind's motor skills and technology evolved through hunter-gatherers taking psychotropics. I’ve got evolutionary psychology on my list for investigation: maybe those guys have something to say about it. I certainly think that religious experience should be fairly and squarely on the evolutionary agenda. Clearly when we signed up for artis, ashrams, bliss and celibacy we were responding to some pretty deep - and I’d guess ancient - human imperatives. Deputy Dog said: “The rational mind is definitely useful, something you always want to have on your team. Lose it and you lose an important part of yourself. IMO, however, to be happy, we must recognize the limitations of mind and learn to live with contradiction and paradox. “The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect.” I actually think that that love and happiness can be perfectly understood by the intellect - tho not experienced thru it. We can easily explain why love and happiness lead to cohesive societies and thus reproductive success. (And we can map much of the brain activity which generates them.) But, naturally, comprehending an evolutionary text on this topic will not in itself furnish us with love or happiness. To experience love and happiness we might have to walk the evolutionary road - i.e. find lovers and families and lifestyles that excite and nurture us - rather than merely comprehend the Darwinian mechanisms involved, with our cortexes. Jim responded to Dog: The sad fact is that the important experiences human beings cherish most - love and happiness, to name two - cannot be understood by the intellect. “I know that you never read anything beside old, new agey garbage but, if you did, you might want to expose yourself to some of the advances in brain science of the last decade or so. We're getting there, Dog, slowly but surely. We understand sooooooo much more about moods and emotions than before. That's why we can regulate disorders and imbalances better. “And as for the deeper questions about love and happiness, we're learning much about that too, in a scientific sense. It's funny to hear you go on and on about the limitations of the 'intellect'. You're in the dark by your own choosing.” Jim’s right about the brain science and the science behind love and happiness of course. I’m not quite so down on the New Age as Jim is, having been the recent recipient of some very effective energy medicine - for which there is no scientific explanation as yet. (I was put onto this energy medicine by a well-known brain biochemist, BTW. I’m also normally fairly immune to the placebo effect.) Homeopathy - which has become a part of the New Age approaches, and is itself a kind of energy medicine - works extremely effectively in double-blind clinical trials - dozens of them - and there’s no mechanism presently known for this either. On the other hand I went to an energy medicine lecture last night, at which an Indian yogi type announced that he had gone into meditation for 14 hours, stopped breathing for 12, and emerged able to write four 13,000 year-old languages, including Hebrew, Egyptian and Sanscrit. I pointed out that writing was only invented 5000 years ago, and that 13,000 years ago there were not even any settled cultures - let alone “Hebrews” (Jews), “Egyptians” or “Indians” - just illiterate nomadic tribes. And that everybody else in human history who had stopped breathing for 12 hours had continued to do so for the rest of eternity. This did not dull the enthusiasm for what he was saying by the others in the room, who appeared to regard him as a great being. It was a scary reminder of how credulous humans are, unless they have been inoculated. We ex-premies have been significantly inoculated against psychic contagion, magical thinking and bullshit in general, and I always say that this is one very positive outcome of our cult involvement. (Perhaps this belongs in the “Have we sacrificed our gifts?” thread.) Unless I get to him first, I’m willing to bet good money that this yogi will have his own cult here within a year. Any of us could tell his followers how to avoid years of stupidity and ignorance, but they may pay no more attention than we would have to similar remonstrations in the 1970s. They’d say we “just don’t understand”. Regards, John

Subject: Re: Responses From: PatD To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 18:54:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: “Your explanation of his explanation is fascinating,but still doesn't provide an answer,not that I'm expecting you to.” What I was getting at is the fact that K according to our beliefs was The Answer To Everything. Your speculations about how the meditation works were obviously not intended to be the ATE,but maybe they were a stab in that direction. Seemed so to me. I don't understand why prehistoric religion(which is what I guess you mean by tribal)shouldn't've been exploitative.The Golden Age...... Lots of dusting to do in the mental broom cupboard,& you've got in there with a vengeance. Good luck to you Richard,shit,sorry John. All the best

Subject: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:54:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below, I posted as Jack Kornfield who is a real person. It was not my intent to deceive anyone but to insert a bit of humor. I told a friend about the post and she thought it really was Kornfield until she read the post. Someone else (Jim?) posted in another recent thread as Kornfield. There are often similar humorous posts using real people's names as the author. I enjoy those lighthearted posts. The funniest case of mistaken identity was when an avid new Ex began arguing with Pauline Premie, a purely fictional character. Question: Do we need to be more obvious when using the names of real people? Maybe we could put AH for Attempted Humor in the subject line similar to OT for Off Topic. Or AA for Alias Author. A note in the forum introduction would clear things up. Or the poster could simply come clean somewhere in the post. Scott recently posted as a cartoon character, Cartman. In one post he put 'Cartman (aka Scott)' as the author. No rational person would think a cartoon was posting here but there is risk of misunderstanding when using a real name as I did. What do you think? Is this an issue or am I just bored today? BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back. Richard Rogers

Subject: Clarification From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:08:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I started this alias thread mainly to discuss posting under other people's real names. It's not my intention to discourage anyone from posting anonymously. I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name as long as disruption isn't their game. Some here do use aliases and have for quite some time. I respect their wishes to remain anonymous while contributing here. Their reasons are their own and that's good enough for me. Richard aka Richard was Postie but now I'm Richard

Subject: Re: Clarification - for instance From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 22:27:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I totally support anyone posting with a consistent screen name as long as disruption isn't their game.'' This is a very good guideline and I just wish Richard 2 had stuck with his first name of Turner because he totally detracts from your brilliant postiness with his new silly moniker.

Subject: Thanks Pat, but . . . From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:58:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's been helpful for Richard2 to stick with his current R2 screen name. At least he is developing a recognizable personality and, for better or worse, he has to live with that. Love his ideas or hate 'em, at least we and he knows where he stands. That's in stark contrast to the drive-by critiques so popular among the non-thinking zealots. It's my experience that when a real conversation happens we all benefit - PWK and EX alike. Richard aka Eternal Optimist

Subject: aka .... and aka .... From: Chris To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:27:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi y'all, I'm back from an all-too-short March break and have missed everybody's postings. I'll try to catch up. This is a start, thanks Richard, aka Jack Kornfield, Postie, Mahatma Coat, etc. and especially like your alias Brother Hal N. Back First item - I'm sure y'all know by now Chris is my alias, although I've revealed my real name to about 10 other 'souls' (*) so far. I'm another person who's glad that writing under an alias is an option, since being a fearful recent ex, I would never have started posting about the KIT, etc. in January using my own name. I chose 'Chris' as a nice, neutral-sounding name as a 'fear' stepping stone. Then I modified it to 'ChrisP' to differentiate from the other Chris (cq), then yet again to Crispy (how the cult has toasted me). Egad, sounds like Mj's compulsion for constant name and identity revision is actually rubbing off on me - yikes :o 2nd item - I used the word 'soul' in reference to R2's comparison a while back on souls vs. humanity. Having exed, I definitely still consider myself a 'soul' with appreciation for anything conducive to life and inspiration. I know my soul is my own for life, and a saved-from-the-cult one at that, I might add. I have to admit in hindsight, at times my 'humanity' had been put on a back-burner on a few regretful occasions during my time with Mj. However I'm relieved at witnessing it returning to prominence again after exiting. Yes, a few friends have told me they notice a difference. I'm more 'there' with them than before. BTW, this phenomena (of how an adopted cult personality/identity can suppress the individual's original personality that, thankfully, does resurface when exiting a cult) has been described in Steve Hassan's book as well. Last item - Another post brought to my attention a while ago was Sir Dave's re his friend's fear (which I also experienced just before posting on F7 this year). Methinks an individual has his/her own right to decide if K is for them or not. For me, it had crossed the line too far into the ridiculous zone to want to hang onto it anymore. The shred of truth I'm leaving with is the 'inner experience' (even if many other paths reveal it as well, and even if it is tributed to nice brain chemistry). Could be that all roads do lead to the same city even if each road gives it a different name on its own mileage sign - I don't know. But the experience is still there for me, untethered and strictly on my own terms and needs, now. It's mine to do with what and when I wish. The water is indeed very fine, and I like where I am. PS: Also keep in mind that one of the criteria in assessing a cult, according to Steve Hassan, is 'are members free to leave if they wish?' okay, I'm 'floating' off the path again ;) I'll end it here, but thanks again for the opportunity to toss my 2 more lentils worth in. Continuing cheers from Crispy

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Larkin To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:35:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Larkin's not really my name It derives from a famous dead poet To leave you no doubt With this larkin about That when it's a poem you'll know it...

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: lord of the universe To: Larkin Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:33:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is only one name, the holy name remember that yours sincerely PremPal Singh Rawat (Mr.) My freinds call me god lord of the universe

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Joy (aka Jwa) To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 06:56:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having never had the urge to post under aliases, I can't quite understand people's fascination with doing it. As if this medium weren't abstract enough, I don't understand why people feel the need to add additional layers and dimensions of unreality to it. (With some obvious exceptions like PatC's hilarious Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch persona, and of course Pauline Premie, whose author will remain anonymous!) But actually I really don't mind the posts by the various aliases, but like someone said below, don't tend to read them much. Too much of it and I feel it kinds of junks up the Forum. Perhaps a good compromise would be to put your real name in the signature line, sort of like (Mahatma Coat aka Richard) or something like that. That way people could scan the post before deciding to read it to see who it was by -- I don't know about others, but I tend to just read my favorite people (usually ones I've known personally, and there are at least seven of them on this Forum, but with two or three entertaiing exceptions who I also think have great insights). Just my two cents. Love, Jwa (so called because Mahatma Jagdeo and the other Indian ones couldn't pronounce Joy, couldn't get their accents round the OY sound, and it somehow stuck)

Subject: OY, that says it all! From: Francesca :~) To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:11:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hee hee. I agree about the alises. With so many of them the alias itself is a better punch line than the post. But where has Ted Farkel gone? I guess they dismantled TRAC before EV ever thought of it. Those guys are just late on the dime. No more hub cap arti trays for David Smith. Seriously I only read certain posts and agree totally that multiple aliases are a pain. However, I do know why it is tantalizing to use them. It's like acting out a part of you rather than being yourself, role playing and all that. If you've ever done any acting, you'd see why it could be a lot of fun. I have excercised restraint in not joining in the fray with several fake personalities because this medium really lends itself to that. But the real dialogue gets lost. Love, F

Subject: The embarassing thing, Joy.... From: PatC To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:12:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....is that I first posted as Thelma because I was afraid of cult retaliation. I only had to out her because the drunken bitch fell on her face the first day of posting.

Subject: Jwa, you are in your mind From: Pauline Premie To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:44:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How dare you accuse me of being an imposter. How do we know you are for real? First, you make fun of the poor Mahatmas like Jagdeo because of their speech difficulties, who not only had to deal with being waited on hand and foot by less-than-competent and subsurvient Westerners, who never did really learn how to grovel appropriately to somebody like Jagdeo, but they also have to live with the guilt that they were the cause of all the concepts and confusions that poor Maharaji is still having to bear and correct. Haven't they suffered enough without you making fun of them? But I heard one time those gulab jamins you made for Jagdeo gave him the TROTS, jwa, and I had to show him my skills at using potted plants to relieve himself in an emergency. By Maharaji's grace, I just happened to be there to lend my skills. Even a holy mahatma from India can only handle so much of a desert that tastes like soggy, disgusting, over-sweet, pancakes. No wonder Jagdeo had rotten teeth! And now, on top of all that, he is accused of the most awful, scandalous things, which nobody has a film of him actually doing, so there, and even if he did do something like that, he probably doesn't do it anymore, and he disappeared into some remote village and is completely inaccessible to anyone in the entire world, and there never was anything Maharaji could do about it one way or the other. I mean, I received knowledge from Mahatma Jagdeo, and he only stuck his hand down my blouse and into my pants about three times during the knowledge session, and I heard all the Mahatmas revealed the nectar technique the way Jagdeo did, using his own tongue down my throat, while laying on top of me. That was only normal, and in a knolwedge review Rajeswar did exactly the same thing! You ex-premies just twist everything around. You are just wicked and mean. I mean, Maharaji is all-knowing and the Perfect Master and all, but he never even once claimed to be God, no not ever, no way. I mean there is a big difference, you know, between being an all-knowing Perfect Master and 'God.' Big difference, and you are just so lacking in that understanding. He just didn't know Jagdeo ever did anything wrong. I am now taking an inventory of my remainng bodily organs that I might sell to make to the next Amaroo. It's just so blissful, because I get to sleep in a tent in the 100 degree heat for only $150 a night! I also invested in track shoes and shoulder pads, for when the seats open up at Amaroo, to help me get a better seat! Maharaji is just so merciful, so merciful and beautiful.

Subject: I posted as BOB AGWANCCI below From: OTS To: Joy (aka Jwa) Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 10:23:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, JWA. Yes, those saints couldn't say your name if they were on with Regis for the million rupis (Who Wants To Be A Croropati?). Your post has lead me to confession. I replied to Pauline Premie below as Mr. Bob Awgancci. Take care, dear. Please get these hats to a speech therapist.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: gerry To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 02:12:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The alias thing pretty much works fine the way it is. Recently however, we have been getting **** troll posts which are typically one liners. When 'Cartman' posted (WITHOUT) the aka 'Scott' and the title of the post was 'I hate you guys' and the message of the post was 'I hate you guys' well, I thought it was a troll. Sure looked like a troll post. I had no idea who 'Cartman' is. I have seen 'South Park' one time and that was at Jim's house. It was pretty funny as I recall. I don't watch much TV. I don't think we have a problem here. I believe the old saw applies in this situation: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Subject: I know! I know! From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:25:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do you think? Is this an issue or am I just bored today? Bored. :)

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Roger eDrek To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 00:10:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am what I am and I ain't who anybody thinks I am - that's fer sure and that's the god honest truth. Maharaji knows who I am and so does Jim Heller™ and a small circle of fiends. But, everyone else (I love you all) and God need not know my true identity.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 17:20:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You asked: ''Do we need to be more obvious when using the names of real people?'' Yes, if you want people to appreciate your sense of humor. :C)

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Jennifer To: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:51:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with Pat. It's more fun if you are in on the joke. I usually do the aka thing if I'm using another name. Then again, it's okay if I don't know the identity of long time posters like Roger Drek or Larkin because they have already created an entire persona of their own. (I think I know who Larkin is anyway...) Jennifer, who sometimes poses as 'Mizz Magnolia'

Subject: No hock Sherlock! :C) [nt] From: Richard channeling Watson To: PatC channeling Sherlock Holmes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:44:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: With a name like Richard Rogers . . . From: Upton O'Goode To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:28:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No wonder you are sensitive to this issue. I imagine you get asked all the time about The Sound Of Music and Oscar Hammerstein, Lorenz Hart, et al. (I know he spells it 'Rodgers', but still...). Anyway, he be dead, so you are safe. I enjoy the punning and cuteness in some of the fake names, although it gets cluttery and confusing if one doesn't know with whom one is conversing, imo. It might be a small courtesy to come clean somewhere in the post. I mean, what if the real Jack Kornflake wanted to post here? Anyway, it's the rabid premies who use fake and changing names, or no-names, all the time, apparently from both shame and malevolence. It distinguishes their 'contributions'. Cheers, Upton O'Goode (aka Carl)

Subject: Anyway what? From: Got Chabitha Ballz To: Upton O'Goode Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 21:59:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You read this... 'BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back. Richard Rogers' Then you say this... 'Anyway, it's the rabid premies who use fake and changing names, or no-names, all the time, apparently from both shame and malevolence. It distinguishes their 'contributions'. ' And you wonder why no-one takes you seriously?? Listen Fritz, them Stukkas were ok for hari kari dive bombing, but they can't match our Sptfires in a dogfight. The war 's over pal. You thinking of becoming a farmer? Well you can now because I've just given you a couple of achers, right between your legs.

Subject: Hey anonymous ghost. From: Richard To: Got Chabitha Ballz Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 23:10:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post above makes no sense and has no point. There's a difference between humor written under an alias and anonymous drive-by criticism. But to understand that you would need a rational mind. Oh, sorry I forgot that having to think and reason is beyond 'that place'. If anyone didn't know my aliases before, they do now. So who in Hardwar are you? Are you ashamed of yourself and your master? If not, why are you afraid to reveal your identity? At least pick one screen name and stick with. You might find a conversation and respect for your point of view. Potshots are cheap. Conversation takes effort but it's well worth finding out more about yourself. Don't worry about us. We're just loosers and whiners who never got it. Thanks for trying to save us from not being able to go home with the Master. (WARNING: The last Two sentences were meant as parody and/or humor.)

Subject: Yes Mr multiple aliases? From: Ball C Rusher To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 23:58:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey you're playing that same old tired broken record again pal, not one original line in your entire post. zzzzzzzz Try logging on to Napster, downloading some new tunes and getting with it.

Subject: Mr. Front Seat Rusher From: Richard To: Ball C Rusher Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:35:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 99% of the time I post as Richard. Once in a mirthful while I'll post using another alias. Those aliases are known to almost everyone but at least are known by the FA's. The spirit of this thread was to help maintain integrity of the forum in light of my JK alias confusing a few people. This is the only time anyone has been thrown by my using an alias so I made a point of being clear. Richard - Old Fart in The Hood, Ancient Kid on the Block and 2 Live for You

Subject: Re: With a name like mine From: Richard To: Upton O'Goode Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:17:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, my friends always tortured me with 'Where's Oscar?' as in Hammerstein. When I got a cat in 1983, I named it Oscar so I'd always be able to say where Oscar was. And ever since the composer died, the royalty checks have stopped coming. Love your non de forum, Upton. Richard (aka Sam 'n' Janet Evening) imusic.artistdirect.com/soundtracks/albums/southpacific.jpg

Subject: hey don't link me with sam! From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 15:50:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will not have my good name besmirched with the likes of being linked to sam!! or brad, for that matter! or planet! or dammit! dammit. don't you get it? I'm special.

Subject: Re: hey don't link me with sam! From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:14:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh no, I forgot to check my 2002 Revised Orthodox Forum Etiquette Manual before posting! What was I thinking? :) Actually, when I was a wee lad, my sister would sing the Rodgers and Hammerstein song Some Enchanted Evening as Sam and Janet Evening. No besmirchment intended but I'm glad you're paying attention. Richard

Subject: J/K richard From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 16:36:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: like you, I too have been followed around all my life by the same jokes about my name. and since this thread is about real names and aliases, I was having fun reading everyone else's posts until you went and invoked MY particular name hell. no worries. it was all in fun. i get sam and janet. i get janet and brad. i get Janet Planet. I get 'dammit, janet'. now, how could i fail to rise to the occasion and let the challenge go unanswered, i ask you? i mean, I AM the only Janet on this board, so....i heard my name, and i just HAD to answer. altho, I DO like evenings. Just not with sam.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:26:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say 'BTW: I have posted in the past as Postie, Mahatma Coat, Dickie Pwickie and Brother Hal N. Back.' Haven't had a problem with them, Richard, they've all been obvious aliases, and not someone else's real name. Posting using someone else's REAL name MIGHT be OK, - only IF you've got their permission. Did you get Jack Kornfield's? In which case I have to wonder what he might think of the deception (unintended or not, on your part). Perhaps you thought it would be obvious to all who read this Forum that you were he. But why? I responded to your posts thinking it was the real Jack Kornfield (of whom I know next to nothing, other than what you've told us about him) and responded honestly. Now you tell me it wasn't Mr Kornfield. How do you think that affects both him and me? I dissed the guy thinking the corn-filled crap 'he' apparently posted was worthy (if that's the right word) of my disrespect. You think he'd buy me a drink if and when we meet? Or that he'd refuse my offer of one. You're on dodgy territory here, Rich, in my honest opinion.

Subject: OK, cq From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:26:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've confirmed my thought that what I did could be misunderstood and not considerate of the real person. I'll stick to obviously fake personas if at all. No I did not check with JK before posting. Drink-wise, I've never had a drink with JK but what I've seen of him in action, he's generous, has a sense of humor and would probably welcome irreverance. For myself, I owe you a drink. Thanks for being a sport.

Subject: Re: Using real names as alias. Problem? From: Livia To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:09:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No no no no no!!! Don't put AH or any such thing! I think it's really funny when people respond in all seriousness to humourous posts - they always work it out in the end, (though I must admit I was fooled by your Jack Kornfield posts.) Otherwise don't you things will just get a bit too earnest? Just a typical English view for what it's worth.... Love, Livia

Subject: Livia and Kelly From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:37:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I've decided it's not cool to use a real name as nom de forum even post-humorously. You and others took me seriously as being someone else and that wasn't my intent. Plus it's not fair to the real person. Kelley, Loving wife and I read After the Ecstacy to one another to keep our connection beyond the ordinary. Haven't had it with toast yet. Hmmm, ecstacy and toast. Sounds good.

Subject: Livia,I recommend Kornflakes for breakfast. From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:29:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I happenned accross his book ' After the Ecstasy, the Laundry' very soon after emerging blinking into the cool clear light of reality, and found it helpful and illuminating, especially on the subject of the corruption of gurus. I'll post it to you in the morning. It's great with toast and marmalade and freshly ground coffee. Cheers! Kelly

Subject: Wow, thanks! [nt] From: Livia To: Kelly Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:45:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Jennifer To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:38:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm wondering how many people who are premies or exes think that they would have made more of their lives if it weren't for their involvement with Divine Light Mission or Elan Vital. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or guilty, and I'm not saying it's too late for you to do what you want. I'm just curious about this because so many people I have met through my association with goomradji were/are very gifted intellectually and/or artistically. I wonder what their lives would have been like if they hadn't heard of Maharaji. Would they have accomplished more, felt more satisfied, been happier? My Aunt who killed herself was very talented artistically and musically. She played the harp. (self taught.) She wrote and illustrated little books for us, she made games for us, etc. I often wonder what she might have done if it weren't for her constant obsession with her Lord and Master. Would she have published a children's book? Would she have played the harp at my wedding? Would she have seen her children grown and happy? What is it that would have become of her? Whenever I think of this, it always seems like such a waste to me. Another premie I know is very intelligent. He wasted a lot of years where he could have been a lot more productive career-wise on Maharaji. I'm pretty sure he would blame that on himself, not Maharaji, but who knows. Anyway, how about you? Do you ever wonder about this? Do any ex-premies want to share ways they wasted their time, energy and talents on Maharaji? I know you all do that off and on here, but I thought it would make an interesting thread.

Subject: Of course we did From: Jim To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:45:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Jennifer, any of us who stayed in longer than, oh, maybe a week, wasted our talents. You want to know how much? Check the mileage. Granted, there are no specific guarantees that we would have done anything great with our talents or skills. Maybe yes, maybe no. But we sure as hell didn't do anything with them IN the cult, save for a few exceptions of people who learned how to become 'trainers' and 'facilitators'. :)

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Konni To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:00:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: interesting topic has prompted this first post. no regrets but glad to have walked - then again I have uncovered an anger, dormant? or previously no avenue for venting until recently discovering EPO. somehow anger, hurt, shame, confusion etc. does not equate as regret. DLM may have helped me find and develop some skills or maybe DLM took advantage of skills I was too young to recognise in self. it wasn't so nice working for DLM. not respected or nurtured. just a pleb. in the end being a pleb was my way out - i could be a pleb anywhere and not have to try so hard. now i'm a self-made ex-pleb and very good at it - with an excellent mind that I enjoy (nyah-nyah guroids - think more it's good for you)

Subject: Nice first post, Konni. Welcome. [nt] From: PatC To: Konni Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 13:37:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, Konni. Welcome. From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 14:22:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's always refreshing to hear a new voice and I hope to hear more from you.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Bryn To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 04:27:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is frightening to recall how much my decision-making process was dominated by, as I thought: 'what Guru Maharaji wanted'. I have no idea how I extrapolated what this was exactly. I just sort of 'knew'. I must have needed the K blinkers very badly to live like that. In some ways I actually developed under the M influence. Travel, charm,(slime some might say), self-assurance (copying Him), shiny smile doing things I wouldn't otherwise have done-like jumbling! 25 years is a big chunk of a lifetime. I can't really dismiss it too quickly too totally. Somehow I must have needed it in some way. Love Bryn Love Bryn

Subject: question I wonder about too From: Susan To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 19:19:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was an A student and in a 'gifted' program in junior high when I became a premie. I also have some artistic talent. I was only 13, how much can you know about what would have been when you spent the years from 13-17 in a cult. I suspect it would have been different though. Good grades were important to me. If they were inmportant to the cult ( for iexample in 76) I had them. Then when I was invited to a colloquium the 'gifted' kids I brought all my books to Newt Gay as proud as could be I was in this program, recall, things changed from '76 to '77. He said my books looked 'pretty mindy to him'. I dropped the program, feeling I was not giving my all to GMJ and being selfish. Also, in leaving the cult, I went from a 17 year old girl who had never been kissed, I was geeky and shy and terrified and it was against the premie rules anyway....to being a teen mom very quickly. I attribute this to the terror I felt when leaving the cult, and somehow substiting a premie boyfriend for it. It was a big ugly mess. But I was a really inexperienced naive girl. So I have no idea what might have been. My sister certainly has been very educatioally successful. I eventually was with a 4.0 in nursing school and 100% on my boards, both successes driven by the feeling I had to disprove that I was such a loser as I felt. But if I had continued on the path I was on at 13, I might have been a real success. Or I could have found some other way to screw up. But I would not have become a drug type, my father scared me from that being one himself. And I highly doubt I would have been a mom so young either. I was pretty shy and had some fairly decent values that got very confused in premieland, where everybody spoke of one set of values and acted another way. But it probably was the biggest sense of loss I had, the loss of potential. That and feeling betrayed by how my reporting of how Jagdeo was handled.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Suedoula To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 18:24:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes -- I'd have to say that my years after I got involved with M were a waste. Although I didn't have much direction at the time becoming an ashram premie didn't help me find a career path. The menial jobs I worked so I could bring in a paycheck to the ashram treasurer don't enhance my current resume. This is a source of frustration for me because the line of work I'd like to be in isn't really the kind you can start in your middle age. And I hated the feeling of not knowing what I wanted to be when I grew up even as I approached my mid-thirties. Warmly, Susan

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Livia To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:44:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's so hard to say what we would have become without having gone through those years. Were some of us the kind of people who, through lack of confidence or an assortment of other reasons, just didn't want to spend those years developing our careers or whatever in any case? I can certainly think of some premies who led extremely productive lives even whilst also managing to practice Knowledge - like Alan and Rachel of London and then LA, who are heavily involved in the movie industry. Or what about Mike Finch who always managed to keep his thing going? (How did you do it, Mike?) However, I suppose people like Mike and Alan/Rachel are conspicuous by their rarity. I know many hundreds/thousands of us frittered away years and years doing very little to develop our talents. In myself it eventually caused me to suffer panic attacks and depression (yes, folks, even though I was diligently practising Knowledge!!). It was the time I call the dark and gloomy years - '77-'82. Ugh. By '83 I thought enough was enough and started making a life away from the premie world - otherwise I think I would have gone stark staring bonkers. I certainly wonder sometimes how I would have spent those years before that had I not been a premie, but don't want to go down the road of bitterness because it's pointless. (But maybe that's all to come...) At least we're all still here and in possession of our faculties - the thing is to make the utmost of the abilities we have from now on, and cherish the good aspects of those years - the friendships we made, for a start. Good thread, Jennifer. With love, Livia

Subject: The ones with money: inner circle From: Francesca To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 19:49:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, You really made me think about this with your post. The fact is that the premies that either quietly continued honing their business skills and resumes in spite of ashrams and the devotional years, or went back to school or got up to speed very quickly once the ashrams closed, are now the big contributors (of either money or their talents within the organization or direct service to the goo goo) who are now in the inner or outer circles of PAMs and wanna-bees. I remember that there was a community premie in LA during a period when Maharaji made appeals for money for the plane. During one shakedown for the plane, the premies were told to 'give everything.' Not that long after that, a program was called in Miami. Well guess what. She couldn't go. She'd given so much money to the last plane drive that she could not go to Miami. She'd taken the request literally. He didn't need to see her; he had her money. Yes, that's how being a 'sincere' premie was rewarded. We were in the ashram, of course, and had no money to help her. Yuck. I think that many of the people who had the drive to be in the inner circle found a way to 'suceed in business' too. Others people had organizational or business skills that they were already using in the organization (DLM or EV), and just kept on going. So it's a mixed bag, for sure. Bests, Francesca

Subject: Ashramie or householder ? From: Carl To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 17:04:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A lot depends upon whether one felt called to join the strict ashram regime, or whether one had the (in retrospect) instinctive self-possession or confidence to stay at some remove, able to generate and flourish in one's own independent scene, so to speak. The ashramies -- many? most? -- were so damn earnest, and may have benefitted (yes, a debatable point here) in intangible ways according to their sincerity in their search for holiness, but God knows not in much of a materially secure way. And wasn't that the point, the message, anyway? 'Lay not up treasures of this world where moth or rust may corrupt ... ' something like that. It was fairly well drummed in as I recall, explicitly and implicitly. With the extraordinarily glaring exception of M and Co.: Talk about laying up of treasures! Lord ha' mercy! Carl

Subject: You can't rerun history From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:06:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You can't rerun things to see how it might have been. The things I resent the most were those occasions when I really longed to be doing something else than wasting away in an ashram, trying to surrender to, and serve Maharaji, but I didn't because of what Maharaji said we were supposed to do, as is extensively documented on EPO and as so many people have mentioned on this and other Forums. It's one thing if M's stunted ideology and his closed-circle world was something you wanted and enjoyed, which I guess I did in the beginning for awhile, and you chose to be there because you liked it, or maybe it was an escape from the real world, but then, it's that same stunted ideology that keeps you involved. Again, that was my 'choice' but it wasn't, really, if you believed Maharaji who said your life wasn't 'yours' anyway, it belonged to him. So, it's those years -- the one's in which I only trashed my life because I believed in Maharaji. Those are the one's for which Maharaji has responsibility and which I regret wasting the most. For me, those were the years 1976-1983. Prior to that, 1973-1976, the picture is less clear. So, to the extent people gave up careers, artistic endeavors, relationships, time with family, and so on, and did so because they believed what Maharaji said and how he portrayed for at least a decade as god incarnate, then that is a true crime on Maharaji's part, and he is a major thief of peoples' lives. Now, he blames the victims, the mahatmas, anybody but himself. This just adds to his crimes as far as I am concerned.

Subject: I agree, Joe From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:30:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I completely agree that we can't re-write what has already transpired. I certainly don't want anyone to obsess about their pasts to where they feel depressed or powerless. It is helpful to think about and talk about things that have happened because it can empower us to move ahead--at least that's what I've heard. I also think talking about it might cause some premies to think about their lives and see ways that they might be wasting their time with Maharaji NOW (or STILL if they have been involved for a long time.) That's why I put the word 'DO' in the title as well. The level of what is required by Maharaji in terms of surrendering to him in a material and career way appears to be somewhat different now (no ashrams, for example) but the surrender of the mind (or the emotions) is still the same. I hope that someone reading these amazing responses from everyone will think twice about how much more time, energy and money (not to mention devotion) they are willing to spend on Maharaji. They could be using their emotions to cultivate more meaningful relationships with others and their time to build lives for themselves.

Subject: Yes, good thread, Jennifer thanks! [nt] From: Francesca :~) To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:16:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Voyeur To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:59:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An interesting question and one that I have been pondering for a while now. I think that following the maha did affect my career particularly because when you became open about it with work colleagues it soon spread around and when it came to promotion you were seen as a liability. This occured particularly after the Divine Travel Service under whatever name Bulent Acar was using in those days stranded me in Kissimmee for two days with no information as to why they canceled the flights (GM's 'agya' I heard later) or when we would be returning to our country of origin, after which I was not allowed to take vacation during the week before an important company presentation, because I had 'disappeared' for two days folowing two weeks away from work. At the time I laughed it off but now I see how lucky I was to advance as far as I did with that company, as I NOW would not see what I did as 'acceptable behavior' in a business executive. However, the other side of the story is this. Through attending satsang in my local area I met other premies, one of whom recruited me for his business and I went on to do very nicely and it effectively changed the direction of my life. If I hadn't been there I would not have met him and ended up where I am now. So what's the answer? For me it's to follow my intuition, which may not be the answer for everyone, but it works for me. But that's part of a whole other philosophy. When I look back I think that my life represents a journey through a series of islands that I hop onto, staying longer on some than others, being forced off some etc to get to where I am now. I rather like where I am now but I didn't like being on some of those other islands, but I didn't have any choice at the time. I don't think that I'll ever resolve this dilemma beyond the fact that I probably made the best decisions for me in the circumstances existing at that time but the risks that I now see that I took astonish me, as they didn't seem like that at the time.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: yetanutherview To: Voyeur Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 04:05:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Difficult to see how anyone could be career oriented, or take their professional lives seriously when 'that crazy world' was so heavily derided into insignificance. Yes its true, one day we all must go, but how do we live happy balanced lives while we are here? big question...even now I find life very difficult,I'm incredibly over sensitive and fall apart all too easily. I'm not pinning the blame for that on anyone, but do you think there should be a 'holstic' element in all teaching? If the body is the vehicle and temple of the soul, then our physical lives need an incredible amount of care too; and our talents are god given, a gift to enable us to support ourselves with our natural abilities, those that give us pleasure, those that we are good at, to provide a secure platform where we can if we wish, go into deeper realms of experience. The two lives of body and spirit are mutally dependant surely? not mutually exclusive.

Subject: 2 sides to the story From: PatD To: Voyeur Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:47:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's right V. I met a guy who wanted me to go into business with him,& I turned him down because I wouldn't have been able to do SSM. Now he's floating around the Med. on a gin palace boat.(& I'm broke) Every major decision about where to live ,what to do etc that I made between 72-82 was taken with Rawat's requirements in mind. On the other hand if I hadn't taken the decisions I took I would nver have met my wife,or had the children I have. Of course I would probably have met another wife(but I don't want a different one).....too much water has flown under the bridge, for those of us whose lives have been tangled up in that of a runt who got lucky on other peoples dreams, to answer Jennifer's question in any objective way. The interesting thing is that our decisions in life(at least in the early days)were taken on a non materialist basis. Rawat's decisions are,& always have been,materialist. FUCK HIM

Subject: Yeah, we sure were meek . . . From: Carl To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:35:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So when, exactly, do we inherit the earth? Maybe we already have? -- C.

Subject: What's this' we 'shit [nt] From: PatD To: Carl Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 19:53:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What's this' we 'shit? Well, From: Carl To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:26:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You did say 'Every major decision about where to live ,what to do etc that I made between 72-82 was taken with Rawat's requirements in mind.' A tad meek, no?

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Pat W To: Voyeur Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:25:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One thing I've noticed is how ex-premies and premies are very reluctant to admit that they've wasted their lives following the Guru since naturally one likes to think one was always in control and 'responsible for one's decisions etc.' it's tempting to look on the bright side as much as poss. and forget that our ability to make rational decision was ripped awy from us by Maharaji's relentless brainwashing programme. I've heard it all now, from 'being in the ashram saved me from gettting hooked into bad relationships and drug addiction' to 'I wouldn't have missed it for all the world with all it's ups and downs' and 'it was all great fun wasn't it? but crazy at times' bla bla. It seems to me that our naturally positive retrospective outlook is sometimes too generous and lets Maharaji off a hook which he really should be dangling embarrassedly from... in as much as that he did totally highjack our lives and remove our choice through his brainwashing cult of surrender. I don't care what anybody says but this is really the bottom line for me. I am not consumed with regret about it because I have picked up the pieces and managed to crawl back into the real world with a monumental effort. I do however absolutely recognise that many people have really not fulfilled their potential in life because of their 'responsibilities' as a premie. Think of all the premies you know who never save a penny because they have to traipse off to that 'event' which will change their lives so much for the better. That habit alone has been pedalled to them and got them hooked like a drug. Think of all the sum of those hours, days, weeks, years spent meditating or listening to boring satsang - doing crappy pointless services (like polishing Raja Ji's Lamburghini or whatever) - Nobody will be able to convince me that I couldn't have come up with a better way to spend my time. In fact I recall life as a premie as a catalogue of doing things that seemed really daft or pointless -and that my suggestions as to how things could be done better were always trashed or ignored. I got the message alright...'Yours is not to question why, yours is just to do or die'. I think we all should be a hell of a lot more offended, angry, and wanting- demanding some recource from having our lives wasted by this trip. I think there should be a trial of the ringleaders in the Hague. Sure now 'Life's Great' ..but back then...in the dark days when The Guru was the Slave Master and held the power in our lives - things were ghastly. I think we just don't want to remember how heavy it all was and how it ruled - dominated - and absolutely changed our lives.

Subject: THE POINT IS THIS From: cq To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:35:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the suckers (like we were) that spend their days 'polishing Rajaji's Lambourgini' are only doing it because they think they're doing it for God Incarnate (or his brother). Only THAT mindset can only account for such slavish devotion. The alternative? To think that they were wrong in choosing M to be their Messiah. And for some, admitting that is tantamount to self-deceit. Catch 22, if ever there was one.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: OTS To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:39:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You don't understand! I could've had class. I could've been a contender. I could've been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am. Let's face it -- Terry Molloy (Marlon Brando) in 'On the Waterfront' (8 Oscars) Jennifer: I was just thinking yesterday about this. Gee, I really could have had a career. I was working, while in college, part-time for one of the top companies in my field. I was on track to really go far. The people I worked with there over 30 years ago, are still there working. I am just starting to save two cents toward retirement, which is fast approaching, but which I cannot now afford. I was young then. I had cleverness and wit and intelligence, and I know I could have made a nice career if I hadn't taken up with the guru when I was just 21 years of age. Perhaps I WOULD HAVE straightened myself out and gotten on track after the anti-war and drug days. I dunno. But just yesterday I was thinkin……………..

Subject: the lost year... From: Gregg To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:32:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was only a dust on the soles of the Lotus Feet for a few years, during which time I was still enthusiastically involved with the arts (visual and musical). Then I joined the ashram. I stopped playing the piano almost entirely. i went to satsang every fucking night. Luckily, that only lasted a year. I've been back in the game for twenty years now, and I am well aware that all this music, writing, sex, art...and even fruitful meditation...would not have been, had I chosen to continue convincing myself that Prem Pal Rawat was an Avatar.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Peg To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:57:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a very pertinent question for me at this time in my life. It is also impossible for me to answer. I have recently made contact with one of my old friends from school. We lost touch soon a few years after I got K. this has reminded me of the person I was at that time. On the one hand it reminded me of the tremendous potential I had at a young age. I was creative, clever, and interested in many things, any of which I could probably turned into a career. However, even though she could see it was a cult and was never tempted by it herself, another thing she said was that she was grateful for my sake that I had found something because I had seemed so lost and somehow being involved with M sorted me out. I had already dropped out of college and I honestly can't say where I would have gone if I hadn't gone into the cult. It is one thing to have talents, it is another thing to make the most of them. It is very hard to answer your question because, although I know that having a ridiculous belief like M is god and looks after me caused me to neglect the normal business of making the most of my life in some ways, I was already in a bit of a state and may have done something equally self destructive. Which came first, the chicken or the egg. One thing for sure...I am so much better off out of it now. Peg

Subject: Peg, ditto. This could be my story. From: Francesca :~) To: Peg Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:56:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peg, You told it well. I really have no idea where I would have been. It is one thing to have talents, and another thing to gather your forces and use them, and a lot of serendipity to be in the right place at the right time when you do employ them in the world. I certainly did not employ any of them to their full potential because of my involvement in M, of that I am sure. But it's hard to say, really. The only regrets I have are re human relationships -- that I was cut off from others due to my superior premie attitude (I've got something they don't, and they can never understand), my prosletyzing and guru songs that tended to keep anyone with 2 cents worth of brains at a certain distance, and cutting myself off from family and friends without K. But I may have done all that by being the way I was at the time. I think the M and K trip was part of my trajectory at the time, and when my internally-driven forces went in a different direction, I walked quite naturally. I did, however, retain some of the mystical ideas and juju for a while after. Maybe those are gurujism flashbacks. A cult certainly does not assist one in sorting these things out. I could only take back my life because I never could surrender it at the Lardass Feet. Even thinking one can do that is total mystical magical thinking illusion. May as well be what I am. I can't be anything else! Love, F

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Pat. W To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:36:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, many people wasted a lot of their talents at a very critical time of their lives (ie in their youth) when they could have been developing their skills. Instead, all these young talented people diverted their energies into so-called service which basically just served to enrich Maharaji and his family and very unfairly (and tellingly) not their own lives. When Maharaji re-instated the ashrams in '77/78 we were encouraged to sacrifice our ideas of what we wanted to do and often that meant people being deliberately put in situations where their natural talents could not be exercised - supposedly so as to 'sever their attachments'. This happened to me. I was about 19 at the time and gave up music which I loved and wanted to do as a career. All this cringe-worthy bullshit served to create sitations where people were afraid to think for themselves or to do things to develop themselves. Maharaji demanded Service, Satsang and Surrender with astonishing disregard for the personal sacrifices people were making. One of my big bugbears with the whole thing was that the workforce within the 'Maharaji Corporation' - the workers - the shareholders had no material benefit - no feedback and were often conspicuously suffering as a result. There was an obscene and insulting pressure, that we were under, to sacrifice our talents to just do what we were told in some stupid ashram . I feel quite resentful that I was pressurised to give up all kinds of things , in my youth, that I really should have been enjoying. Sex is probably quite near the top of the list, playing music is another, enjoying my family - thinking straight is another. The list is endless. The ridiculous thing is that Maharaji presumably knew at the time that his demands on us were unreasonable. It pisses me off to think that he was gaily smoking dope and screwing around whilst at the same time shouting his head off at us (in ashram meetings) - berating the very idea that we should be interested in such things since we had the ' precious opportunity' etc to surrender to him. It's extremely sad really. I don't know what he's become now - but back then he was a scaremonger and a bully- he loved to make people feel guilty- it suited him. In private he could be shy, kind etc. but there's no getting away from the fact that he played the Pied Piper for thousands of premies who lost valuable parts of their lives working for him in his dark cave - just to gain a bunch of religious beliefs about a megalomaniac guy who simply referred them to some meditation techniques that anyone could have done without him. I have to say, that I have for years given Maharaji the benefit of the doubt - I guess I have been hoping that he might acknowledge his mistakes and bad effect on people etc- but the older I become, I'm afraid that Maharaji is actually losing any respect I may have once had for him, at an alarming rate. There are indeed moments when I think that this seemingly shy, harmless meditation teacher is actually in practice, heading for an epitaph as of one of the evil men of his time. When he eventually dies - and the libel problem goes away - people will make TV shows about him that recount the dreadful hyporicy and sham of his life and his surviving children and their families may well hang their heads in shame. I think by then all the good that comes of meditation will be well-known and he will be seen sort of as somebody who used 'spiritual practices' (that he himself didn't do) as a means to subjugate people and to control them for his own gain. He will be also seen , a bit like Hitler, as a man of conviction, but tragically , one whose convictions were fatally flawed.

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Pullaver To: Pat. W Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 23:29:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Patrick. A lot of your remarks resonate strongly with me. I even get mad thinking about Maharaji's own children and how they are seemingly free to enjoy their youth unfettered by demands to sacrifice it all at daddy's altar - exploring romance and the like in rich-kid Malibu style. So many of us - at Maharaji's behest - sacrificed our personal lives in order to serve him. For me even when I decided that I had enough and wanted to move out of the ashram to be a free spirit again with a beautiful young girl I had met - I stayed because Maharaji held a meeting for the ashram premies and made it patently clear that we should stay put, i.e., that only Mr. M-I-N-D could make us want to leave. When the ashrams were closed many of us were ill-equipped to compete for decent jobs and were faced with the prospect of returning to school with our youthful ideals broken and our worldly fires all but extinguished. Our ties to our families and friends had been shattered. Talk about being a fish out of water. In my case, I had the added bonus of being socially inept. It took me about two years before I could properly relate to people 'on the outside' again, like carry on a conversation instead of sitting there staring into their pupils. It was a weird, disheartening time. There has even been the phenomena noted on these forums of middle-aged budding musicians, artists, writers - basically returning to natural inclinations but unfortunately hamstrung somewhat by arrested development and years of deeply inculcated cult-think. Art and literature is often informed by pain and awakening. The same is true with music but capturing the popular zeitgeist in a youth-dominated popular music scene is not very likely. Personally, I laid it ALL at Maharaji's feet. Girlfriends. Music. My plans for continued world travels. My family and friends. University education and career. Financial security. My appearance (bohemian to polyester clad straight - now that's real sacrifice). Of course, I've learned to accept and move on and appreciate what I do have in life. But I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that sometimes I feel a deep despair and sorrow that I allowed my youth and adventure to slip away while I gave myself to the Master who was apparently just learning-on-the-job.

Subject: **BRAVO, Pullaver - Eloquent! *** [nt] From: Francesca :~) To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:49:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** [nt] From: OTS To: Pullaver Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 10:53:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lost opportunities From: Tim G To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:04:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jennifer I count myself as a lucky one as I managed to pursue my career as an artist throughout cult years. But I did present an exhibition dedicated to Maharaj, to the bemusement of the critics (I think they mainly took it as a joke, as we do in Ireland) In the early days I came in for a lot of pressurising due to the fact that I was 'in my mind' to live in the country and paint...I should have been living in or near the Ashram apparently. But I saw many talented friends forgoing opportunities in their careers. Having said all that...the past is past. Here we are now, God Bless us. Greetings Tim

Subject: I was one of the lucky ones. From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 17:25:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great thread that digs to the core, Jennifer. When I sincerely and reverentially moved into the ashram in 1973, it was to dedicate my life to serving GMJ and his stated purpose of bringing peace to the world one heart at a time. I was called to do service in Denver IHQ just before Millenium. I recently called my old friend who suggested I be brought up from the minors to play in the big league. I thanked him for lying for me back then. He told them I was an expert in graphic design which I was not. That became obvious to myself and everyone else very quickly. I was surrounded by some very hardworking, educated and talented people so I learned design skills from them. From paste up guy in the big-ning, I was eventually responsible for designing and producing Divine Times, And It Is Divine, Élan Vital magazine and other collateral. The first years of that work was like technical school in that I learned a trade. To this day, I still use the knowledge (small k) that I gained there. Additionally, because everything I did was 'for the Lord', I learned how to work tirelessly, tenaciously and meticulously. Those attributes serve me (pun intended) in my work today. As far as sex, I have confessed before that for most of my supposed celibate asharam years, I wasn't. I had been quite shy before K and being surrounded by 'that love' made me bolder in declaring love and receiving love. There was also the tantalizing riskiness of making love in the ashram and even in the same room as sleeping(?) room mates. After all, the guru was getting it, why not me? I think the above positives made me go easy on M for a long time because I hadn't surrendered as much as some others. I basically ignored a lot of the later heavy devotional stuff and figured that was for other people, not me. I thought I knew the truth for myself and it didn't include hair shirts. In the debit column, I spent most of a decade chasing rainbows without requisite compensation. I also gained no 'real world' experience to speak of. I moved to Miami in 1979 thinking I could continue being 'plugged in' but was turned away by DECA because I was neither ashram resident nor married. Once the DLM/DUO ride was over, I had to wait tables to make a living from festival to festival. A rude awakening, but being rejected at DECA turned out to be fortuitous. As I said, I was one of the lucky ones. Eventually (1981) I started doing design work again with another IHQ alumnus. My design biz continues these 20 years on. In 1983 my girlfriend and I bought a nice old Deco house in Miami and were married in 1984. This at a time when many premies were living in cheap hotels, working 80 hours a week, being walked through divorce a mill and discarded once the 707 project ended. On balance, I think I took advantage of the opportunities given me and benefited in the long run. But there's still the ongoing annoyance at M's blatant and arrogant bait-and-switch from World Peace leader to Captain Why-Do-You-Want-To-Know-?-Rawat. Richard the mercenary

Subject: Re: Did/do you waste your gifts? From: Livia To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:22:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer, this could indeed be a very interesting thread! Quickly, your aunt who played the harp wasn't somebody called Helena, was it? I once knew this lovely premie called Helena who taught herself to play the harp - she was also extremely devoted to Maharaji. Whether it was or not, I'm very sorry to hear that you lost her in such a tragic way. With love to you, Livia

Subject: For Livia From: Jennifer To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 08:41:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, No, her name was not Helena. Like your Helena, she was very devoted. Maharaji was ALL she lived for and apparently that was not enough :( These responses to this thread have been so good. Thank you for your kind words, Livia. Jennifer

Subject: re.did you waste your gifts? From: WPC GirlT To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 21:06:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My early life was blighted by the psychological and physical damage my father sustained during ww2. My father took his own life when I was 15. I decided making plans for the future was a bit futile. Although a reasonably intelligent and able person, I internalised a policy of not investing in the future, and just lived from day to day. It did not occur to me to posses and nurture my talents, I wasn't too sure I had any. In fact I think I was custom made for the role of scivvying for a passing megolomaniac, claiming to bring peace to the world. I submitted willingly to the psychological lobotomy, my ideas hadn't done anything for mankind. Bringing up my children has shown me that we all have gifts and that where there is love and trust those gifts flourish. Exploiting the talents of others happens in many arenas, crushing the confidence of the exploited is part of the game. You can see it happen in politics, in religion, in community groups wherever. I'm continually learning, albeit late in life to treasure my skills and use them discriminatingly, that may be a .life long lesson. It could have worse, at least I didn't swallow the ideology of Margerat Thatcher, and pick up her banner and run with it. WPC Girl

Subject: all that merchandise From: bolly shri To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 02:14:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know if I can make it to rajajis sale of the century might have to make do with all these 1977 durga ji audiotapes gathering dust on a shelf. A few months ago I took some of them to a charity shop I hope no one bought them and is looking to be saved. bolly shri

Subject: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 00:25:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At this point, no one I know seems to know for a fact whether or not M ordered Fakiranand to attack Pat Halley. We know that he most certainly ordered him to escape the law and to that end directed Donner to whisk him out of the country. But what about the attack itself? As I think of it, I must say there are a lot of reasons to suspect that M did indeed order the attack. Here's why: 1) Someone, can't recall who, said that he was at the Detroit ashram after the attack. M had returned there. I believe there was a planned press conference that was cancelled, something like that. M was seen talking in a very animated and apparently angry tone with Fakiranand -- in Hindi. Talking about what, one might wonder? 2) Fakiranand was a sincere devotee, say all who knew him. It's beyond comprehension that he would have attacked Halley if he had any doubt at all about M's approval. Now I know that the easy theory we all accepted for so long was that Fakiranand was somehow, in his crazy, misguided fashion, trying to 'surprise' M or something, give him a great, devotional surprise the same way we used to cook him up a batch of gulab jamins. The problem with this notion, though, when you really think about it, is two-fold: one, these kinds of attacks (i.e. murder -- Halley suffered not one, not two, but SIX concussions. Can't fault hese boys for lack of trying) were far from commonplace in our cult. They weren't goolop jhamens, which we all knew M loved. This was new terrain. You'd think Fakiranand might want to do even a little reality checking. Seeing as M was right there and not off on some other continent, asking would be easy. Also -- and this is key -- recall that M very quickly ordered his security goons to leave Halley alone, to not hurt him. So, unless M said anything different, say in the car or back in the ashram, Fakiranand had his agya: leave the guy alone. That translates, roughly, into 'plese don't kill him'. But Fakiranand tried anyways. Why? 3) Let's not forget that there was another guy involved, the 25 year-old American ashram brother. What would it have taken to get him to join in this dastardly deed being that he, too, must have known that Maharaji publically ordered premies to not molest Halley? Surely, Fakiranand would have had to assure him that he had Maharaji's agya or something, don't you think? So is that something that a good devotee like Fakiranand, a guy who really did try to live as if his beloved Lord and guru was everywhere and not to be trifled with, would blithely lie about? Personally, I can't see it myself. can you? 4) We know that Maharaji swiftly arranged Fakiranand's flight from the law and out of the states. Donner's told us that he was personally directed to take care of that. Can't get much better evidence than that. Now, here too this was always accepted by us premies as just a sign of Maharaji's over-riding loyalty to his devotees, no matter how bad they'd been. He'd take care of Fakiranand however he would, possibly withdraw a little love in his meditations or something, but he wouldn't throw his devotees to the dogs of this world. But there's a problem with that theory. Someone must have explained to Maharaji the great, great legal risk he was taking acting as an accesory after the fact like that. Hell, for all he knew, Halley was going to die -- you never really know with these six-hammer blow to the head situations. Sometimes they don't turn out so well. So one can reasonably wonder just why Maharaji thought it so damn important that Fakiranand not be available for the trial process. The other guy, I understand, was sent to an ashram in Honolulu? Same difference. Why? 5) Fakiranand was sent to Europe where he continued to tour as a great saint for a few months, up to Millenium apparently. JM can confirm this, I think. Now, say he really did act on his own. Don't you think Maharaji might have been just a bit concerned about what this wild, murderous zealot might do next? Well, yes, even the most cavalier Lord of the Universe would have a little concern in that respect, no matter how little he actually cared for his devotees. Even if it was just in terms of wondering what further embarrassment he'd have to handle, he'd care. But, as we know, he did nothing apparently to control Fakiranand during this period. The guy just did his typical mahatma thing. So? So this. I infer from that that there's a good possibility that Maharaji wasn't worried about what Fakiranand might do next simply because he knew that Fakiranand had only acted on his instructions. He still had a leash on that Hound of Heaven. The leash, as always, was the fact that this dog would do nothing without agya. 6) We also know that Maharaji lied like a crook about this at the Millenium press conference where he sheepishly pretended that he was 'looking into' the situation. Well that's just a complete, obvious lie. Fakiranand was a fugitive and he, Maharaji, was supporting him, directing him, everything. So my point here, simply enough, is that, if the guy's capable of lying about this ugliness, capable of being an accessory after the fact at minimum, why shouldn't we suspect that he actually played a greater role in the most interesting part of the show? As I mentioned in a thread below when I said all this stuff to Harry, it's not as if Maharaji necessarily spelled out what he wanted done. Hey, maybe even he wasn't sure. Maybe he left it wonderfully vague a la Thomas a Beckett, just asking Fakiranand to 'visit' the guy or something. Anyway, after thinking about this again, I'm sorry, I think there's a very good chance that Maharaji really was involved in ordering the attack, not just the escape and cover-up. Anyone?

Subject: Re: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: michael donner To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:08:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for what it is worth, i think that raja ji inspired fakirandand to act...incited at least. at that time, the wpc ('world peace corp') was in charge of security for m..and raja was the wpc 'commander'. raja had major egg on his face for not 'protecting' m. i do not believe that m instructed him to attack pat halley. nor do i believe that m was happy about the attack actually. i know that he was angry about the attack and not just show anger...my opinion. also, fakiranand was sent to india, not europe. i do not remember that fakianand ever left india after that. not completely sure however. but he went from detroit to chicago by car...i was in that car...and ticketed to india via london. it would not have taken much for the mahatmas (rajaswar was also in on the meetings with two other mahatmas to plan the attack...which i learned later) to have acted alone...to even be proving their loyalty and balls to the 'lord'. halley's act was considered a mortal sin within the context of the then prevailant theology.

Subject: Not to Europe?? Rread Nick's post Michael. [nt] From: Dermot To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:45:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And oh yeah micheal .... From: R2 To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:46:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IMO you should also be a little more careful with your position. Your speculation regarding Raja’ji is just that. If it is not based on proof, it only misleads by adding to the plethora of misinformation already out there. Not to mention the hit your own credibility takes in the process. From what I know of him, he is a kind and genuine man to be for someone like you to be implying he called a hit on someone.

Subject: A kind and genuine man. From: AJW To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:17:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi R2, I too always liked Raja-Ji, and found him 'kind and genuine' in the interactions I had with him. However, there is more to it than that. There was indeed a power struggle going on between the WPC and DLM in the crazy days of the 70s (see below). This was the period when the WPC bugged the Palace of Peace in London. For a brief period they tried to take over Unity School, offering us a building somewhere in the country for the premises. There were all sorts of stories from several sources, about the military maneovres the WPC had on Clapham Common, 'bombs' being let off in ashram gardens and stuff. Raja ji was the head of the WPC when all this stuff was going on. He was an adolescent at the time, and like the rest of us, had his head full of crazy ideas. We were all expecting the lion to lay down with the lamb and the Satgurus kingdom of love and peace to be established any day. After all, the Lord had come with more power than ever before, and Raja-Ji was really and incarnation of Vishnu, or was it Shiva. They were crazy times R2, and we were all touched by the Golden Age of Insanity, not least the other Mr Rawats. Anth, living incarnation of Ganesh's rat.

Subject: Another example ..... From: R2 To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 17:29:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....of just how the truth is misrepresented on this forum. Thank you michael for taking the time and having the balls to correct Jim’s speculatory inuendo. Jim, once again you demonstrated how close I was when I expressed my opinion of your character in a recent post. You should be ashamed of yourself but alas you have none.

Subject: Re: Another example ..... From: michael donner To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:44:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: r2...jim was offering some ideas...i was expressing my own opinion based upon observation at the time while in denver. i knew rj and his role in wpc and the fact that he had his own power base then and we even vying with m for leadership and loyalty (at least m spoke of a powerstruggle with rj at that time).. it is possible that a jim is correct...certainly many of his points of speclation are correct in my view.

Subject: Re: Another example ..... From: R2 To: michael donner Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 19:48:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ideas and opinions aside, can you say which of Jim's points, and yours for that matter, are in fact validated? That is, does not involve an element of speculation.

Subject: That's SO easy R2.. From: Dermot To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 00:46:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Ideas and opinions aside, can you say which of Jim's points, and yours for that matter, are in fact validated? That is, does not involve an element of speculation.' That's easy ....Nick's testimony mentioned briefly below but which he gave more details of a few weeks/months ago. I know Nick...he's not an anonymouse or anything like that.....he's a decent, honest guy and always has been (in spite of being a deluded follower of you know who for decade upon decade, like many of us:) ) Nick was never in the PAM brigade ,as such, but was always a co-ordinator and that type of thing here there and everywhere.He testifies that he was Faks driver in Europe AFTER the criminal assault. It is OBVIOUS that Mr Rawat knew of this (or would you put THAT in the realm of speculation?)and it's obvious that Mr Rawat was happy to have an insane, deluded near murderer portrayed as a 'channel' (that was the term in those days ,yes?)for M's message, work and 'love'. To me this leads to one conclusion only. Mr Rawat didn't give a jackshit about the possible consequences of placing an obviously deranged, criminal maniac in the midst of premies and the rest of the world and using him to propagate his message.Now I'm sure this means nothing to you (or almost sure) because in your eyes Mr Rawat is above and beyond the likes of you, me and uncle Tom Cobbley and all.....but to most people (especially when Mr Rawat announced in public that 'he was dealing with it')itshows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's culpable .......no not for the brutal act .....but in NOT doing what pretty much most decent people would do ie if not doing EVERYTHING to turn the motherfucker Fakiranand in , then at least making sure it wasn't 'business as usual'. IMO the FAK issue is ONE issue of the 70's that is as relevant today as it was then. Maybe other stuff is or isn't but not this.I used to be a cult follower too, you know, I know how easy it is to try to sweep things under the carpet and not have to face them honestly, impartially and directly.With the Fak issue though your dearly beloved comes out smelling of SHIT, not roses. ....I guess none of that would be obvious to you though huh? Cheers Dermot PS just added this after posting.....I know you were referring strictly to Jim's points in the above quote....my post , though, is taking a slightly broader look at the whole issue and there's no way I can see Mr Rawat as blameless in the affair even if he was appalled about the actual attack. His role in instigating it or not instigating it, Ii agree, at this point is speculation. Reasoned speculation, mark you, but yes...speculation.His role in the RESPONSE to the issue (as in his response to Jagdeo etc) is plain for all to see though. I got K just around the time of Millenium. I rememebr a bit later being tucked away in an ashram for a 2 of years or so after that. I remeber seeing the pic of the pie throwing incident.I remeber vague whispers of Fak....I can't remeber how I shelved but I sure did. I didn't ask too manty questions.....nor did anyone else. Shame on me. One things for sure, the full story (or even a tiniest fraction of it) was never emblazoned across the "Divine Times's" I was stupidly passin round to all and sunder ....with ridiculous headlines of "The Lord is in the West" and other such nonsense. God the more I think of it.....it's hilarious:) Still today he has his devoted spokespeople and apologists......amazing......amazing.

Subject: Re: That's SO easy R2.. From: R2 To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:52:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Dermot, M dealing with Fakiranand aside -- which can be argued from a public safety point of view -- my question to michael was to extract the points of speculation in Jim's argument that M ordered the attack. If we do, I'm afraid what's left is nothing BUT speculation.

Subject: This is called 'discussion', cult member From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:32:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ARe you nuts? Or maybe you just can't read. Is that it? Too many years running from your mind, don't know how to use it anymore? My analysis is based on the evidence we have and then a little speculation. Now, I know how threatening thinking, let alone thinking out loud, is for you guys. Hell, you might even start doubting Maharaji or something! But us ex-cult members are free to think and ponder. You're pathetic.

Subject: Re: This is called 'discussion', cult member From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 20:19:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ARe you nuts? Or maybe you just can't read. Is that it? Too many years running from your mind, don't know how to use it anymore? My analysis is based on the evidence we have and then a little speculation. Now, I know how threatening thinking, let alone thinking out loud, is for you guys. Hell, you might even start doubting Maharaji or something! But us ex-cult members are free to think and ponder. You're pathetic. --- Well my friend, your speculation-laced evidence has a tendency to be mistaken for the truth by those easily swayed by such things. But I guess as lawyer that’s not news to you, that being it’s one of the slights-of-hand you use in your trade. Take Livia for example. She actually stated recently your theory that M ordered Halley’s assault as if it were fact. So what is it Jim, you being a freethinker here or just slyly spinning groundless accusations as fact? Well, mr. golom?

Subject: Re: This is called 'discussion', cult member From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 08:02:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been away but am back now. I don't know where I posted about Fakiranand. What I said, I think, was most likely that I'd read somewhere on EPO that Maharaji had been seen whispering to Fakiranand in Hindi after the pie-throwing incident. Shortly after that, Fakiranand attacked Pat Halley. I didn't quote it as anything Jim had said, of that I'm sure. I remember the story having been written by someone who was there at the time. I'm sorry, R2, but however you look at it, whether Maharaji ordered the attack or not, and I was only quoting what I read on EPO, it doesn't look particularly good. The fact is that Maharaji didn't deal with it very appropriately, did he? Why didn't he turn him over to the authorities? Why did he allow him to tour Switzerland shortly afterwards? Was that responsible? If someone under your aegis committed an act like that, would you let him carry on as normal for a while and then allow him to slip away to another country thereby avoiding any justice whatsoever? Would you, really? And if so, what sort of person would that make you? Can you answer these questions intelligently, please? With regards, Livia

Subject: What a stupid criticism! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 22:02:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now you're really sounding stupid. There was nothing the least bit underhanded, sneaky or misleading about a single thing I've said here and you know it. If, as you say, Livia misconstrued something I said, that, my friend, is what we call a 'mistake'. I'm sure she'd be the first to admit it if, as you say, she really did misunderstand me. However, I'm not so sure that you have what she said straight. Where is it?

Subject: Re: What a stupid criticism! From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 15:49:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim your true colors are well imprinted on your reputation, as time can attest to. The possibility of you being concerned that your speculation NOT be miscontrued is non-existent, and you know that. You have only one goal, and it ain't the truth. Sorry pal, sneaky and, misleading fits your character to a tee.

Subject: You, sir, are a liar From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:47:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listen, R2, I asked you if you'd posted before under any other name and you said no you hadn't. PatC, however, one of the FA's, reminds me that, in fact, you did indeed post as 'Turner'. Don't be talking to me about the truth, fella. You are as corrupt as your cult leader.

Subject: Not true, but ... From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:37:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....what the hell does that have to do with our discussion. That discussion being the lies you have so 'innocently' been passing off as speculation. Funny how quickly you find a reasn to call everyone who doesn't agree with you a liar, or dishonest, or dumb, or worse. What a piece o' work.

Subject: Is it true or not? From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 09:52:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC says it's true. Is he right or wrong? And what's it got to do with anything? Well, R2 / Turner, it's got a lot to do with everything. If you're capable of simply lying about something like that, what's the use in talking with you?

Subject: My sympathies, Jim From: PatC To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:33:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand you even more now that I have a ''reputation'' as being a bully and ''manipulator of words.'' Do you think it's because people are fudging with words so much that they no longer can tell simple truth or is it that they are too coarse to understand any finer points or is it that they are deliberately scapegoating because you are an easy target having been set up by the Jim is a Bully Coven so often? I don't expect an answer.

Subject: R@, you are one piece of work! From: fly on wall To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 19:23:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny how you like to put your 2 cents in on the issues you want to weigh in on, and then retreat when the questioning gets a bit too hot or heavy for you.... I'm sure you're getting all kinds of jollies from trying to bring down Jim Heller, but the fact remains, who ordered the attack on Pat Halley? 1-if it was fakiranand alone, why was he whisked out of the country and not prosecuted? Isn't that the least a perfect master could do? 2-if it was the mahatmas, why weren't they punished and sent packing? 3-if Mischler ordered them to be whisked away, do you really think that he would have done it WITHOUT m's permisssion? Highly unlikely. If Mischler ordered it, it was most likely from m himself. If Mischler was acting as a 'lone ranger', he wasn't subsequently punished for it. Think of the fear he would have had at that time in disobeying m's agya... Anyway you look at it, m was either part of the planning of the attack process, or if he wasn't, he certainly did nothing to bring the attackers to justice. Sounds a bit like the JAGDEO incident, doesn't it? Doesn't something like 'personal responsibility' come into play somewhere here? Would you ever question maharaji on anything? I doubt it, because most premies would die before they did something like that. And with that refusal, there goes their personal responsibility as well.... BTW, care to answer my questions to you and harry from the thread down below?

Subject: Re: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: Nick To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:29:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike As I have posted here a few times before, I can vouch for certain that Fakiranand spent a few months in Switzerland (and maybe a few days in Austria) in the months leading up to the Millenium Festival (i.e. after the brutal attack). I was his driver and can clearly pinpoint the timing of his touring in Europe. Again, as I have stated here, the Pat Halley incident was in no way reported to the premies who were tending after Fakiranand. Maharaji may have been angry, but he clearly was not concerned about my and others' well-being at the hands of a possible psychopath (and I am not being dramatic here). Nick

Subject: Re: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: Jim To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:27:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Interesting. Is there any reason besides just his status as WPC head that makes you suspect Raja Ji? Did he say anything to you, either then or later? Did Maharaji? This is also the first I think any of us ever heard about other mahatmas being in on it? Again, what exactly do you know and how do you know it? Also, don't you recall someone posting here some months back that Fakiranand was in Europe touring as if nothing had happened before Millenium? I think even JM remembered something of that. Any chance you're wrong or what do you make of that? Finally, what about Fletcher? Any idea? I hear what you're saying about Maharaji being truly displeased. As I said, I'm just speculating.

Subject: Re: Did M tell Fakiranand to attack? From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:51:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, your scenario makes a lot of sense. In fact, I'd say it was MOST likely Rawat ordered that mad dog to 'do something' about Pat Halley. We know now from Rawat's actions and words that he is an amoral selfish pig and this fits right into his character profile.

Subject: Someone who might know for sure... From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 06:44:51 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ...is that ashram brother who aided the living saint in his 'enforced reincarnation' mission. Doesn't the statute of limitations mean he would now be immune from prosecution? If no longer a premie, he might even be happy to spill the - purge his conscience, sort of thing ('I was a brain-dead cult member back then and would have done anything the Master required of me'). Your logic is sound, Jim, but no premie is likely to be swayed by what is, as yet, still just speculation. But a first-hand account by one of the protagonists would be something, no?

Subject: Yes, where IS Mr. Fletcher these days? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:09:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the Fifth Estate article that JM's put up in the Press area of EPO. It's got some further interesting stuff in it. Take a look, if you haven't already: Survives Beating by Guru's Devotees 5th Estate Reporter in Good Shape Pat Halley, the Fifth Estate reporter who was savagely beaten and almost killed by two devotees of the 15-year old Guru Maharaj Ji, was released from Detroit General Hospital Aug. 21 in good condition after undergoing surgery to repair a caved-in portion of his skull. The two assailants, 25 year old Richard Fletcher, from the United States, and 55 year old Juteswar Misra, from India, have reportedly confessed to the attack and warrants have been issued by the Detroit police. However, the two are not in police custody, even though the Divine Light Mission (the Guru's organization) issued a release to the press indicating that the two would surrender to authorities. Halley had his head split open by the two assailants only a week after he tossed a pie in the face of the teenage 'Lord of the Universe' at an August 7 formal session of Common Council in protest of the Guru's claim of divinity. Halley later claimed that he 'always wanted to hit God in the face with a pie.' After the pie-tossing, the Guru claimed that he did not want Halley 'arrested or hurt.' A couple of questions here. I thought M was getting a key to the City of Detroit. What's with this 'formal session of Common Council in protest of the Guru's claim of divinity' then? Also, if a week transpired between the pie and the hammer, what were Maharaji, Fakiranand and Fletcher doing that week? Did Fakiranand talk with Maharaji after the pie-throwing or not? In Detroit as I already mentioned? Were there any other conversations? When did Maharaji go back to L.A.? Why? Did he have nothing further to say about this big, international embarrassment (Time magazine, amongst others, if I recall)? Did he just let it pass or was he stewing in anger? If the latter, did he talk with Fakiranand that week from L.A.? Don't forget, Maharaji didn't have that many mahatmas in the west then. Their currency had not yet been devalued. Thus, these guys, especially legendary old-school heros like Fakiranand, did -- I think -- have greater access to Maharaji than instructors might ten years later. What about that week? Also, the Fifth Estate had done an expose the year before on Maharaji's smuggling in India scandal. Fletcher and Fakiranand lured him with the promise of a similar scandal. I tihnk it's safe to assume that Fakiranand, who was constantly travelling and who knows if he read english or what not, would not have known about the earlier article unless someone told him. Thus, Fletcher would have been the one who'd know the relevance of that particular kind of enticement. But did Fletcher think this scheme up on his own ro did he bounce it around with anyone else? What was Fletcher's 'service' anyway? Who was he close to? What was his tie to Maharaji, hierarchy-wise? The two assailants, who are high-ranking devotees of the Guru, gained access to Halley's apartment after claiming to him that they were former members of the Divine Light Mission, and that they wanted to show Halley the secret 'Divine Knowledge' which is the key to the Guru's religious teachings (see accompanying article). They also said that they had information which would expose corruption within the Divine Light Enterprises, the Guru's massive financial arm. The two assailants explained to Halley that, because of the 'sensitive' nature of their information, they would only be able to relate it to him in complete privacy. Once they were alone with Halley in his apartment, Fletcher and Misra delivered four or more solid blows with a blunt instrument to Halley's head. 'They would have killed me,' explained Halley from his hospital bed, 'if I hadn't resisted and hadn't screamed as loud as I could. They were like gangsters.' Fifth Estate staff members and friends, who were suspicious of Fletcher's and Misra's need for complete privacy with Halley, managed to copy the license plate number of the assailants' car. After the attack, the license was traced to the Divine Light Mission, located at 1950 Boston Blvd. and 149 Taylor in Detroit. So it sounds as if Fletcher and Fakiranand actually met up with Halley in the presence of some of his Fifth Estate colleagues. Bizarre, isn't it? These guys were completely identifiable and yet they were about to try to kill someone! How hard would it be to find the culprits, even if Halley had died, in that case? So what does this tell us? Maybe nothing. But maybe it says something about how or why Fletcher and Fakiranand felt confident they'd get away with it. Agya, possibly? Did they think taht Maharaji was going to completely protect them like Arjuna on the battlefield? Were they promised something? Anything? Like seamless travel within the growing DLM demi-monde? Did all the plans crash because Halley didn't die and could now identify his assailants? Or because they were too stupid to not think of someone getting their licence number? After being confronted with this information by Fifth Estate staffers and concerned members of the straight press, the Divine Light Mission released the following statement to the press: Last night Pat Halley, the notorious pie thrower, was brutally attacked by two assailants who then fled the scene. The local members of the Divine Light Mission heard of this incident and became aware that the Divine Light Mission personnel or devotees of the Guru Maharaj Ji might be involved. They notified the young Guru at his residence in L.A. The Guru Maharaj Ji immediately requested that the Divine Light Mission conduct a full investigation to see if any information concerning the parties responsible could be brought to light. As a result of this investigation, the assailants were located. They confessed their part in the incident and offered to turn themselves in. The local authorities were immediately notified and the suspected assailants are now being held in protective custody. Local and national officials of the Divine Light Mission are extremely shocked and appalled by the occurrence of this event, for the brutal action taken is in direct opposition to all that the Mission stands for and to the express wishes of the Guru Maharaj Ji. The young Guru, Himself, was amazed when the news was relayed to Him. He expressed his deepest regret of the incident and his concern for the welfare of Mr. Halley. He further extends his regards to Pat Halley's family and friends with the assurance that the Divine Light Mission wishes to help in whatever way possible to see that the persons responsible are brought to justice. ' I get the impression from what follows that this slick press release was meant to fool peopel into thinking DLM had already turned Fletcher and Fakiranand over to the cops but that the 'protective custody' was merely an ashram or premie house somewhere. In which case, seeing as WE were the crazed cult, not the Fifth Estate, who did these guys need protection from? The police perhaps? In spite of the Guru's regrets and assurances, the Divine Light Mission was highly uncooperative in assisting the Fifth Estate in learning the whereabouts and identity of the two assailant. Not only did they refuse to provide the Fifth Estate with this information, but the Mission released the two from their custody in Chicago on August 17, supposedly after a visit from the Guru. Even though the Divine Light Mission refused to reveal the whereabouts of the freed assailants, it was learned that the two fled either to Chicago or to Denver, the location of the Divine Light Mission's national headquarters. So Maharaji visited these guys?? Privately? Why? If he did NOT have anything to do with this attack and he did NOT want anyone to think he did, wouldn't visiting Fletcher and Fakiranand be the worst possible move. ESPECIALLY IF HE WAS ARRANGING THEIR FLIGHT FROM THE LAW? Am I wrong to suspect some possible complicity here? And let's not forget, it's not as if Maharaji ever got either Fletcher or Fakiranand to make any sort of public announcement -- however fake it might be -- that they acted on their own. Instead, they fled the law and that was most definitely not done on their own. While Halley was undergoing surgery, The Fifth Estate staff said to the press that we would advise Halley not to prosecute the two assailants, but that the final decision was up to Halley. The reason the staff was against prosecution was that we hold the entire Divine Light Mission responsible for this cowardly attack. The Guru and some of his followers were arrested last November in India, trying to smuggle in jewels and money they had hustled from naive followers in the United States. To avoid prosecution, the Guru had one of his followers take the rap (see graphic). The Fifth Estate did not want to see the responsibility for what had happened to be scapegoated on the two assailants. When Pat Halley regained consciousness after the surgery, he told us that he would prosecute Fletcher and Misra because he felt that they had tried to kill him, and if they were left free, they would attempt further physical attacks against him or his family. The Fifth Estate fully backs Halley's decision in the light of this information. The following is a portion of a press release the staff of the Fifth Estate composed after the attack on Halley. It expresses our feelings on the incident: In eight years of existence, the Fifth Estate's staff members have been threatened by a succession of police, prosecutors, members of Congress, Parents, high school principals and right-wing organizations. However, it took a religious fanatic to sustain the first serious wound against a staff member. The Divine Light Mission has denied responsibility, for this attack, but we don't buy it. The Divine Light Mission portrays itself as a peaceful devotional organization set up to establish perfect harmony on earth. But by their attack they show themselves to be a hate organization composed of individuals who need an authoritarian, hierarchical structure to tell them how to think. They are a collection of frauds, fanatics and potential fascists.

Subject: I think it's more the case of... From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 18:58:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We lived in a kind of heirarchical beleif system in those days, that started at the top with maharaji's own indoctrination into this concept that Guru was greater than god, and that it didn't necessarily matter who was in the chair of being Guru maharaji at the time,; it was an absolute that came with the chair, the same way we have absolutes that come with being The Pope, or The President, or the King, or even being Mommy or Daddy. All those years he spoke in the third person, he was really thinking in the third person! It's the same mindset you can work yuorself into when you find yourself yelling at your kids ' don't you talk to me in that tone of voice! I'm your father! You don't talk to your father that way!' It comes with the office. I think probably Maharaji was incensed at the insult, not to himself, prem pal, personally, so much, as to the Concept of How You Treat Guru Maharaji When He's In The World. Remember--he was born into it and dyed in it, surrounded in it from his conception. It was his world. He never knew anything else. Every person he saw, interacted with, knew by name, had in his world, was steeped in this and nothing else. His Maharaji was his Father! even if shri hans had just been his father and a premie, and someone else had been GMJ, he still would have had that imprint of the kind of father shri hans WAS. [the beating with wooden sandals, waking up sleeping devotees by switching them with a stick at dawn, to get up and meditate...]. I really think old prem pal completely believed the Office, or Mantle , or chair that he was told to step into, at shri maharaji's death, carried a life of its own, that he was helpless to do anything but follow and speak of as it had been inculcated into him--and anyone else around him who had been taught it, too. I think that the rages he flew into were more about how he came to feel about how one ought to be, and not so much about himself personally. I'm sure the Pope feels similarly when he has to go about his pomp and circumstance. I'm sure the Kings of history had to be the same way. Think about some of the shakespearean soliloquys, Kings wrestling and debating within themselves, chewing on the clash between what they would do if they were just themsleves, just a single man, but what their duty and their situation demands that they do as representing a people, or a nation, or an empire. Then ratchet it up a notch, to what you do when you have holy wrath, when your job is to make people understand the right way to treat one who has proven to you that they are the unimpeachable Master of all Masters! I do think that he was constrained from showing anything like wrath or security retaliation in public, that day in council chambers, because he wasn't on his own turf, and was under Noblesse Oblige to his city hosts. But I do think that once safely back in his own territory, he fulminated and raged about the wrong of anyone, devotee or ignoramus, taking the uninvited lead and initiating the pie in the face. remember Lila. it's supposed to be 'HIS Play'. not yours.If he feels like Pieing YOU, it's supposed to be funny. If you initiate it, you're the one in your ego, your mind, putting yourself up equal to Him, and that just AIN'T allowed in maharaji land. cause you're not suposed to know anything. He's supposd to know everything. So my bet is that he raged and roared and ranted all the way back to the ashram, and especially took it out on his '[dogs' [the mahatmas]] once indoors again, and they just cowered and took it. I don't think he necessarily was telling them he was displeased with THEM, just outraged by the gall and indignity of anyone doing that to 'Guru Maharaji', in the abstract. To the Office, if you like. Something like striding up in broad daylight and french kissing the Queen Mum for shock value, and then flashing a naked hardon from under your raincoat, for all to see. You've done her no actual harm, but you've horrified and offended the Office of her Station. And thru her, psychologically committed the act upon all who identify with her. Given the peculiar connection internally between Leader and Subject, there will be no lack of parties immediately inflamed who will personally want to go ut and deal the offender their personal notions of justice and retribution. I think Maharaji ranted and yelled, but i don't think he actually, himself, directly, gave an order to anyone to seriously go out and kill halley. I think he ranted about it in the third person, the hypothetical, religious, doctrinal abstract--the same way he usually does when he gets going. But--here we also have a cadre of mahatmas whose self-appointed job, by the engines of their chosen devotion, was to live by what they heard and to behave [like dogs do, when taking cues from their master's state of excitement] in ways they saw as answering the needs they were hearing their master display. We aaaaaaall know the feeling of seeing DAddy get mad and rave, and remember getting upset and thinking frantically of what we could do to make him satisfied again. Every child does it. Every dog does it. Every battered wife does it. Players do it when their coaches berate them. Students do it when the teacher comes down on them. Troops do it when their commander tears into them. someone hatches what they think will make the leader happy again and sets out to bring it to them. Leaders see this dismaying outcome all the time. They try to tell, explain, demonstrate, to teach their minions what they want done, the subjects fail to grasp it, and deliver something totally unrelated to what the teacher was trying to get them to grasp. It isn't unique to maharaji by a long shot. I think maharaji hiffed and puffed and roared until he could stalk off to his own chambers, and then everyone fell to whispering with each other what could they do about it. I think the mahatmas had the feeling they could arrive at a more dire and final delivery of telling the offender why you don't do that to the master, than, say, the rank and file premies on the street. Rank has its perks, etc. The fact that Rajeswar was in on it is particularly criminal, seeing as how he was mata ji's cousin and a magistrate--that's JUDGE, to you--in India. and I always liked him, too.... oh well. another one into the dustbin, much as I would have liked to keep him. or maybe not. maybe they all voiced their disgust, but personalities being what we knew them to be, I think Misra/Fakiranand went off on his own self conceived quest to fulfill his holy wrath--again, carefully held apart from his sense of himself as one single man, as we all did while we counted ourselves as premies-- and I think he went and tapped Fletcher to be his driver and his man-in-waiting, the way the mahatmas would snag and use any of us, who happened to be handy, when they wanted something. After all-- we were just the servants. We were there to do stuff. You didn't say no to a mahatma! And if Fletcher got the vibe, and fell in with the surge of the moment, well, it was all Lila, wasn't it? We all behaved as if the World was an illusion and didn't apply to us. We all relied on Grace to protect us and save us from the dynamics of the World. we were 'IN the World, but not OF it'. And it worked horribly well, a lot of the time. All those laws and rules and standards of behavior are taught to us from the outside, after all. We aren't born knowing there's a law against stuff. We get taught it, growing up. But in the final analysis, the one who makes us honor it or break it, is us. The law, or the taboo, or the convention, is the outermost wall that affects our acts. The initial impulse to act comes from our own self. I think Misra conceived of the scenario on Pat Halley out of his own imagined Holy Wrath, and i think he tapped Fletcher to come with him as a handy servant-- to drive him and find out stuff for him and be what we all were looked upon as, by the mahatmas--and I think Fletcher got caught up and paarticipated in the intrigue, in the mood, and the pandemic, delusional belief of Lila and Grace and not being part of the World. And of curse, he was just doing what Mahatmaji ordered him to. And Mahatmaji was just living according to what Maharji said was True. I'm pretty sure that once everyone--or a few 'everyone's' found out what they did, the only obvious response was to whisk them out of the reach of the World--keeping seamless the dictum to treat the world as not real and to make sure nothing ever touched the purity of the master. Maharaji himself probably shrugged it off as yet another instance of his crazy premies not understanding what he meant for them to grasp, another brushfire he had to go and put out, thanks to somebody's wrongheaded idea of what would please him. Never forget the sagittarian hallmark of loving to surround yourself with listeners who want to listen to you pontificate on lofty philosophies, and the unfailing streak of having no attention span for the distasteful, draggy, mundane, and especially , the responsible. the sagittarian horse is terrified of the yoke. the faster they can put something behind them, the better. all in all, I think everyone was true to their character. I think maharaji ranted, i think misra conceived of his idea of Holy justice, i think fletcher was a dumbwaiter in it, and i think we all got them out of the range of the law, because our mindset, or worldview, would not have allowed any of us to break the illusion and permit the world to have any validity. and don't forget that flasher of the Queen Mum: if misra hadn't done it, I am sure there would have been countless other premies who would have liked to have done to same to halley, at the time, to have made themselves self imagined avengers of the dignity of the throne. Its a damned good thing Halley forgives us. The fifth estate was right: the entire mission was culpable. Fakiranand and Fletcher would have just been the fall guys who took the rap. We all were guilty of it. And if the master gets mad, but its his dog who attacks someone, because of it, both the dog and the master get punished for its happening.

Subject: Wrong, Janet From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 20:41:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its a damned good thing Halley forgives us. The fifth estate was right: the entire mission was culpable. Fakiranand and Fletcher would have just been the fall guys who took the rap. We all were guilty of it. Boy, do you ever like to colour outside the lines. This attack crossed such novel terrain for all of us, it's wrong to say that we in any way were at fault for it. It's not as if we incited each other to go and 'fight the infidel' or anything. Well, we did in a way, but that 'infidel' was the mind. No one I ever knew in the cult did anything even remotely like this. You'd have to put each one of us in Richard Fletcher's shoes and see what we'd do. I'd expect that some -- hell, maybe even me, for all I know -- might have followed suit. I also expect that many would not. We were all in the cult but we did not all go anywhere near crossing that line.

Subject: Re: Yes, where IS Mr. Fletcher these days? From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:15:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, where indeed is Fletcher? Any exes remember him? BTW, the passage about 'in protest of the Guru's claim of divinity' refers not to the formal session of Common Council, but to Pat Halley's motives for tossing the pie. A comma after the word 'Council' should do the trick. For sure, there are a LOT of unanswered questions as regards the attack. Many of which the Goo himself could provide answers for. Bet you'd love to have him in the witness box! The following is odd, though: 'While Halley was undergoing surgery, The Fifth Estate staff said to the press that we would advise Halley not to prosecute the two assailants, but that the final decision was up to Halley. The reason the staff was against prosecution was that we hold the entire Divine Light Mission responsible for this cowardly attack. The Guru and some of his followers were arrested last November in India, trying to smuggle in jewels and money they had hustled from naive followers in the United States. To avoid prosecution, the Guru had one of his followers take the rap (see graphic). The Fifth Estate did not want to see the responsibility for what had happened to be scapegoated on the two assailants.' How can an assailant be 'scapegoated'? OK the Goo had responsibility for creating the milieau which caused the assailants to attack, but 'scapegoated'???? Odd.

Subject: he may as well have given the order From: Jethro To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:51:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji once said '..if anything comes between you and Guru Maharaj Ji', regard it as your enemy and strike it out of the way'. This is the stuff fakiranads are made from. Whether m gave the direct order or not, he made fakiranand. (Oh, by the way, can you refresh my memory about Charles Manson. Did he actually kill anyone?)

Subject: asked Booth to shoot him From: No, but Abe Lincoln To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 02:16:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I heard it, it must be true.

Subject: A few words to my Friends From: Brian Smith To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:24:38 (EST) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Many thanks to all of you for your thoughtfulness and your support in this time of personal health crisis. Your many emails brightened my days and encouraged me fight a little harder to overcome this current health challenge. I am going to be fine and fully recover, that is after a grueling 1 year treatment involving weekly injections of interferon and twice daily ribiviran doses for a chronic precancerous liver condition aggravated by hepatitis C. A little something I picked up on one of my Viet Nam tours of duty. At this point I have about 25% liver function and the side effects of the treatment are horrendous. I won't elaborate but the cure is almost worse than the disease, and very hard on ones mind, body and emotions. Even so after my forth week on the treatment I am gaining ground and the critical elevated liver enzyme levels are dropping. Again thank you all so much for thinking of me at this time, I haven't felt well enough to respond sooner but I thought I would apprise you of my situation in case you were wondering where and how I have been lately. Keep up the good work out here everyone, you are truly performing a valuable service and I will be back to join you sooner than you think. Sincere Thanks, Brian Smith

Subject: Thanks Brian From: Kelly To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 14:03:40 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Thanks for posting this Brian, I,ve been wondering how you are. so sorry to hear what you're going through, it sounds pretty horrific, but I'm relieved to hear that you can expect to come out the other side in one piece, so to speak! I want you to know how much I appreciated your lovely message after I posted about my husband George's lung cancer diagnosis. It really lifted me. In fact, I want you to know how much I appreciate all your posts, you do a great job here. George is also a bit wiped out at the moment, he's on his sixth round of chemotherapy, a really aggressive three drug cocktail.....but, there has been a response, which is really encouraging, at the very least we have a bit more time. I'm sending you loving thoughts and sincere best wishes. Get well soon! Karen

Subject: Alright! From: Roger eDrek To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:44:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, Great news and what a relief! I was really bumming when you told us of this at the impromptu Latvian vegetarian dinner in San Francisco last whenever. You are one of the 'good guys' and I'm glad that you will be around to help fight the battle.

Subject: Hey Brian From: eb To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 09:31:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you wrote and so relieved you're doing better. You are a truly special person. Hang in there. Sending you lotsa love, eb

Subject: To Brian From: Tim G To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 05:55:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Brian VERY glad to hear of your progress. I know quite a bit about what you have gone through with the Interferon as my ex partner has been through it and had to stop because of the effects of the treatment. I also know quite a bit about Hep C as I suffer from it myself and have done quite a bit of reading on the subject. At the moment I am forgoing the medical route and maintaining a reasonable level of health with Chinese Herbal treatments and some other help. I do sympathise with you as I understand the effects of the disease and also the potential worry. Here's wishing you a complete recovery. Please feel free to write if you feel up to it: timgitti@indigo.ie Love Tim

Subject: You never call, you don't write ..... From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 21:35:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Brian! I had no idea. If there's anything I can do for you (hey, within reason, alright?), let me know. This sucks. My best thoughts are with you. Honestly, if there's anything, if you just want to talk, anything, let me know.

Subject: A few words to my Friend From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:25:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're in my thoughts a lot. I feel very grateful that I saw you recently and have a clear picture in my mind of your beautiful face. It's not only because you were in Nam that I love and respect you so much but that's a big part of it. You're altogether a wonderful and good man. I wish I could say ''Pranam, Mahatma Ji,'' to you without it sounding facetious. :C) You're truly a great guy.

Subject: Sincerely thanks to you Brian From: Francesca To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:19:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, Thanks for being there for me and many of us so many times. I figured you didn't have the energy to answer all the individual e-mails, so I am very glad to hear this news. I hear a lot of hope and strength coming from your end. Love, Francesca

Subject: Re: A few words to my Friends From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 19:25:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, I've definitely be wondering how you are doing. Thanks for taking the time to help us feel better knowing that you are doing the best you can. I, for one, am very grateful for having a community like this for support. Many here have given me a thumbs up from time to time and it feels good to be part of it. Feel certain that you are much loved and greatly respected here. As I told you in an email, hopefully the challenges you're facing aren't getting you down. From what I know of you through your written word, you are one powerful dude and have what it takes to go yard. (For non-sportsfans, 'go yard' is baseball slang for hitting a homerun.) Your cyber pal and fellow EPO class of 2001 freshman, Richard

Subject: Re: A few words to my Friends From: Livia To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:39:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Brian, I didn't realise you were so ill - it sounds pretty awful and I really really hope you get better asap. If it's any help I have a friend who has suffered from the same thing as you until recently, when he had some treatment. He felt terrible when going through the treatment which lasted a few weeks, but I saw him recently and he looks and says he feels fantastic, for the first time in years. It had totally worked. So all the very best to you, and hope you too are feeling fantastic in the shortest possible time - you deserve it. With love to you, Livia X

Subject: All the best Brian From: Joe To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:39:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, I'm glad to hear you are making improvement, but sorry you have to go through the horrendous medical treatments. All the best and you're in our thoughts. Hang in there, and I'm looking forward to hearing your great insights and sense of humor in the near future. Joe

Subject: Tee-hee! We've got the tapes.... From: Nige and Moley... To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:27:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to darling Loafie's boldy going back to the dustbin (that's garbage can over the pond, maybe?) with his disinfectant and kitchen gloves, we are now sitting on a boxful of the most gloriously fuckawful bilge you can imagine. Margie vids, old and new. Dozens of the fuckers! Tee-hee, indeed... Stay tuned for illumination and further instruction... :D

Subject: You mean you've finally stopped shagging!! From: hamzen To: Nige and Moley... Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 22:47:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :) But watching loads of videos, how can ya do it without smashing the tv in, I wish I could.

Subject: EV UK Update - FYI just sent out From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 18:20:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: national email: march 2002 Dear All, I understand the regional and local sales contacts are getting lots of questions locally re the future of sales and materials in the UK. I thought I would share my understanding of how things are evolving and developing. The current Bonanza Sale (click here to download 16K pdf) is the last chance we all have to purchase the current videos, audios and publications etc. This is our opportunity to stock up our own libraries of materials. You can order via the mail order brochure, or attend any of Raja ji’s 5 events in the UK where the final remaining stock is being sold (Note: introductory materials only at the London event). Events where you can purchase materials: Manchester 23rd March, 4 pm. Manchester Conference Centre Sackville Street Manchester City Centre M60 1QD Bristol 24th March, 3.30 pm. RAMADA PLAZA HOTEL (what was the Jarvis) Redcliffe Way near Temple Meads station London 25th (open introductory event), 8.00 pm until approx 9.15 pm. Kensington New Town Hall Hornton Street London W8 30th London Hindi, 6.30 pm. Westminister University College Northwick Park Watford Road Harrow, Middlesex 31st Leicester Hindi, 2 pm. Hanover International Hotel Watling Street Hinkley Leics LE10 3JA Sales as we know it will cease at the end of March 2002, both centrally from EV Ltd and at local events. Local libraries will continue for the forseeable future, and these are being updated with copies of the latest broadcasts. Discover for Yourself will continue for the foreseeable future but will be replaced in time by newer materials. 'But how will I get materials in the future' I hear people ask. Very soon we will see the beginnings of an alternative way to access new materials which will replace the production & distribution channel operated by Visions over the past years. We will keep everyone updated when this becomes live. I personally await it with great anticipation. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank, on behalf of all of us, all the volunteers around the country who have organised the sales of materials so well over the years. All the best John McClean

Subject: Built-in Demand From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 10:53:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I imagine that cutting off the supply of videos will make premies more likely to financially support future satellite transmissions. Since premies are likely already videotaping/burning dvds of these programs for themselves it makes the actual production and sale of videos/dvds unprofitable. Nevertheless, I predict Maharaji will give agya not to copy but to download from his website these programs at continued exorbitant prices. Or at least give this 'service' to someone in the community who would download, then copy and sell the materials on demand within the community.

Subject: urravelling From: boly shri To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:01:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I have only occasional access to the internet and have found this site a real comfort and inspiration. At first reading postings I believed I was clear of the crap that cult had infused me with, that I could draw a line under that part of my life. It's not that easy is it. Although for more than a decade I haven't been the first one up for a ticket to the masters feet, I've gone along to those soulless events occassionally, and have not proclaimed to my friends 'hey guys I'm off to see the lord'. Maybe others of you have lived in the closet, like these are my premie friends and these are my normal friends, they live in darkness. But there's a weird facet of this what do you know my normal friends have trials and tribulations in their lives and so do I. We chew them over meeting on common ground and things are resolved, life goes on. In premie land you voice your unease about something there is something wrong with you. So what am I saying here that for over twenty years even though I mixed mostly with non cult people I've had this Mrs Rochester character lurking on my shoulder saying 'maybe it is because I don't meditate prostrate myself have faith whatever that all these disasters land on my doorstep. It's bollocks I know it's bollocks but everyone feels like a vulnerable failure sometimes. Reading about Andrew and the stuff from Bunny et al I think yeah but when you are feeling fragile and there's no one there to say it's okay trust yourself it will pass that's when it's difficult and those times always feel longer and lonelier. Yes I know the cult was a fake and no I won't be going back for more But thirty years of my life included the old lotus feet mindfuck however peripherally, if it had been my whole existence I think I'd be really scared about jumping those waiting to catch me might be just another joke on me. bolly shri

Subject: Is Rawat Mrs Rochester? LOL [nt] From: PatC To: boly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Unravelling jumpers From: Lesley To: boly shri Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:47:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, it is a scary and difficult time, made even more difficult, as you turn to face the world, by the ridiculously high benchmark instilled by Mr Rawat, of divine love and perfection still stuck in your head. It takes time to make a clear and reasonable assessment of what you can expect from others. I think the main thing is to dig your heels in and have some faith in yourself. You, after all, have singlehandedly walked yourself to the edge of cultworld, and that took some doing, and you know you are no joke. And, anyway, if you turn around and look back, that ol cultworld is clearly unsubstantial, so you might just as well be an unravelling jumper, at least you are going to get some fun out of it!

Subject: Re: Unravelling jumpers From: Lazy H To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:07:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Knit one, pearl one. From your Saturday night friend Mr H PS No reply requested

Subject: Re: Unravelling jumpers From: Lesley To: Lazy H Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:00:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mr H, Ta for getting my little joke, I feel nicely knitted up again now, took a while, though. Love Lesley

Subject: Narcissism From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:57:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of days ago I read an article on narcissism .... Thought I would share this with you guys to pass the time of day. Prof. Roy Baumeister of Case Western Reserve Univ. in Ohio did a study of narcissism and came up with the following 'tests' - I'm an extraordinary person - I like to look at myself in the mirror - People should recognise my authority - I wish that someone would one day write my biography - I find it easy to manipulate people - I insist on getting the respect that I deserve - I like to start new fashions and fads - The world would be a better place if I ruled it - I'm more capable than other people. Also Baumeister, in the article, was quoted as saying: 'Narcissists make fairly unpleasant colleagues. They want everyone else to do the drudgery while they take the credit. They crave opportunities for self-enhancement.' 'They believe they are entitled to special treatment because they are God's gift to the world,' 'But these people will shine in times of crisis when they have an opportunity to show off. For example, they are good when a crucial presentation needs to be done.' 'These people make good first impressions. But that soon washes over when people realise that their charm is shallow and ostentatious.' --- - I wonder if we should have a collection and ask Baumeister to do a one-off study of Maharaji?! Maybe he is an expremie - he sure seems to have an excellent insight! LOL

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: Pullaver To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 11:37:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ChrisP e-mailed me the following a couple of days ago. Sound familiar? Narcissistic Behaviour Here's an excerpt: Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) Definition, Fact Sheet and Tips NPD is one of a 'family' of personality disorders (formerly known as 'Cluster B'). Other members: Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD. NPD is often diagnosed with other mental health disorders ('co-morbidity') - or with substance abuse, or impulsive and reckless behaviours ('dual diagnosis'). NPD is treated in talk therapy (psychodynamic or cognitive-behavioural). The prognosis for an adult narcissist is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. Medication is applied to side-effects and behaviours (such as mood or affect disorders and obsession-compulsion) - usually with some success. It is estimated that 0.7-1% of the general population suffer from NPD; most nacissists (75%) are men. The onset of narcissism is in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers. There is a whole range of narcissistic reactions -- from the mild, reactive and transient to the permanent personality disorder. An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met: - Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) - Is obsessed wtih fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion. - Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions). - Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply) - Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations - Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends - Devoid of empathy. Is unable to unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others - Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her - Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted. FIVE DO's/DON'Ts - How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist: - Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him - Never offer him any intimacy - Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on) - Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity - Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: 'I think you overlooked... made a mistake here... you don't know... do you know... you were not here yesterday so... you cannot... you should... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom)... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly)...' You get the gist of it. THE TEN DO's - How to Make Your Narcissist Dependent on You If You INSIST on Staying With Him - Listen attentively to everything the narcissist says and agree with it all. Don't believe a word of it but let it slide as if everything is just fine, business as usual. - Personally offer something absolutely unique to the narcissist which they cannot obtain anywhere else. Also be prepared to line up future sources of primary NS for your narcissist because you will not be IT for very long, if at all. If you take over the procuring function for the narcissist, they become that much more dependent on you which makes it a bit tougher for them to pull their haughty stuff - an inevitability, in any case. - Be endlessly patient and go way out of your way to be accommodating, thus keeping the narcissistic supply flowing liberally, and keeping the peace (relatively speaking). - Be endlessly giving. This one may not be attractive to you, but it is a take it or leave it proposition. - Be absolutely emotionally and financially independent of the narcissist. Take what you need: the excitement and engulfment and refuse to get upset or hurt when the narcissist does or says something dumb, rude, or insensitive. Yelling back works really well but should be reserved for special occasions when you fear your narcissist may be on the verge of leaving you; the silent treatment is better as an ordinary response, but it must be carried out without any emotional content, more with the air of boredom adn 'I'll talk to you later, when I am good and ready, and when you are behaving in a more reasonable fashion'. - If you are a 'fixer', then focus on fixing situations, preferably before they become 'situations'. Don't for one moment delude yourself that you can FIX the narcissist - it simply will not happen. Not because they are being stubborn - they just simply can't be fixed. - If there is any fixing that can be done, it is to help your narcissist become aware of their condition, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, with no negative implications or accusations in the process at all. It is like living with a physically handicapped persona and being able to discuss, calmly, unemotionally, what the limitations and benefits of the handicap are and how the two fo you can work with these factors, rather than trying to change them. - FINALLY, and most important of all: KNOW YOURSELF. What are you getting from the relationship? Are you actually a masochist? A codependent perhaps? Why is the relationship attractive and interesting? Define for yourself what good and beneficial things you believe you are receiving in this relationship. Define the thingsi that you find harmful TO YOU. Develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself. Don't expect that you will cognitively be able to reason with the narcissist to change who they are. You may have some limited success in getting your narcissist to tone down on the really harmful behaviours THAT AFFECT YOU, which emanate from the unchangeable WHAT the narcissist is. This can only be accomplished in a very trusting, frank and open relationship.

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: wolfie To: Pullaver Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 13:07:40 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, it is a new way for me to see narcissim as a cause for a lot of problems I have we have and a lot of people have. What I watched is a very obvious narcissism amongst Premies. Narcissim is a powerful surrogat for real love and you can get extremly high on narcistic emotions, it feels good but it leaves you alone and seperated again it is not basic. I think it is so much a part of our culture that we can not see that it is somekind of desease.............ciao ..wolfie

Subject: Re: Narcissism From: Pullaver To: wolfie Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 16:49:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting point Wolfie. However, I guess I see certain narcissistic traits as being a virtual description of Maharaji: - Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions); - Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply); - Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations; - Is 'interpersonally exploitative', i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends; - Devoid of empathy. Is unable to unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others; - Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her; - Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

Subject: I just got a CD from EV? From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 16:41:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It just thanked me for my generous contribution. 'your effort has been essential and greatly appreciated. Our heartfelt participation will always make the difference'. (Our?) It contains five trax of the most amazing bilge I have ever heard. A track called 'The Human Heart' takes the biscuit though.(human pronounced 'humin' Bless you all at EV land for thinking about me, but I left years ago now, and this is unsolicited shite. I listened to it for old times sake, and can't be arsed to describe what I now hear. Really this is transparant manipulative junk. Anybody else get one? It has thank you in 12 languages on the front. Your welcome love Bryn

Subject: Amazing/Hedwig & Angry Inch. From: Joe To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:36:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was 'Humin Heart' a song, or was it 'words of the speaker?' Humin Heart? Oh, I get it, I guess. Are all of the tracks songs/music? I love the 'bilge' comment. Any chance you have seen 'Hedwig and the Angry Inch?' It's a great movie, which had been a stage production in New York, with lots of great music. Anyhow, the down-on-its-luck rock band headed up by 'Hedwig' is reduced to playing at 'Bilgewaters' which is a chain of eateries with salad bars around the country, in one memorable scene their wild rock music results in a massive food fight. Anybody else see that movie? I highly recommend it. You're in for a real treat if you do. Anyhow, bilge is a great adjective for that CD, I'm sure.

Subject: OT anything like Spinal Tap From: Francesca :~) To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:20:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is Spinal Tap is one of my all-time faves. If you ever bought into any aspect of the rock-and-roll religion ('got a revolution, got a revolution' -- Jefferson Airplane), thinking that these stoners that were no different than yerself except that they were musicians were going to do squat, and that they were the prophets of the day delivering the message (Woodstock, man), it's great. And if anyone ever was totally enamored of a rock band's 'cool,' it's also a great laugh. Heavy metal memories. --f

Subject: No, it's more of a stage musical From: Joe To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:35:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe a little more like a broadway musical than Spinal Tap. Hedwig and the Angry Inch is more of a story in the sense that it tells the story through music like musicals do. It has a certain amount of animation as well. John Cameron Mitchell plays Hedwig and he's amazing. I first saw it last October when I was in Chicago on business. The audience in the theater was singing along to the music and reciting some of the dialogue. I had heard about it as a stage play in New York where it ran for years. Kevin and I watched it again on video on Sunday. But I also love Spinal Tap.

Subject: Re: Amazing/Hedwig & Angry Inch. From: Roger eDrek To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:51:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I just saw the Angry Inch the other night. A really hoot.

Subject: Has some great lines... From: Joe To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:08:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love that line when Tommy Gnosis asks if Hedwig has accepted Jesus as his/her savior, and Hedwig says, 'no, but I admire his work.' Also loved when Hedwig had the Korean housewives from the army base as band members. That song 'The Origins of Love' is a great song. So are some of the others. It made we want to go out and get the soundtrack, which I guess has been a big seller. I guess deep down, I really do love rock and roll. ::)

Subject: wot it was. From: Bryn To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 07:10:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Joe, Humin heart(humin is a kind of west coast version of humAn, as brightly sung by the girly chorus.) is worse than bilge, it is rancid. I am amazed by it. It is his daughter's effort, indulging in her star role in the expensive studio. The opening inst. is ok enough, but then... I am tempted to describe it in its fascinating awfulness, but there is too much to go at. It must be heard to be believed. I haven't seen the Movie in question. I wonder if H Hrt has ever been done live? I would like to see how she puts accross her particular vibe of voluptuous religious menace in a performance setting! Perhaps a salad bar would be an appropriate venue. Love Bryn

Subject: So, it wasn't "humming?" From: Joe To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:11:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was short, and a play on words for "humming heart," you know, kind of your heart singing? But rather it was just bad pronunciation? It is interesting how the daughters have become lounge singers as part of Maharaji's stage show. I wonder how long that will last?

Subject: Tears of laughter From: Francesca :~) To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 14:05:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn, Thanks for that one. I read it right before I went to bed last night and was laughing so hard I was crying. Ah, the hummin' heart. The CDs were probably left over from the fire sale, dontcha think? Even the premies weren't sure about that hummin' heart. It's all about cha-ching! --f

Subject: Cha-ching indeed. nt From: Bryn To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 07:19:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bn

Subject: I got one too, what total plonkers! From: Kelly To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:41:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Thank you for your generous contribution- your effort has been essential and greatly appreciated. Our heartfelt participation will always make the difference.' Dear Premies, this is what your contributions are paying for. Total incompetence! When I awoke from the cult trance, more than a year ago, the first thing I did was cancel my standing order for £30 a month, and I have been quite vocal in my denunciation of the mad master on this forum, and indeed have told his minions who have phoned me and mailed me to take me off their lists ever since. All to no avail, they continue to send me glossy brochures of their sell off sales, and now this georgeous cd. The trouble is, I know that only just a year ago, I would have been so...ooo knocked out by it!! It is already hard to remember (nor do I want to) that ludicrous sense of gooey joy with which I welcomed 'new materials' such as this. You poor suckers. I listened to a bit of the cd( before I threw up) about the cagebirds who didn't realise they were free, the door was open!! Well I did, I walked! Thank you and good bye. Kelly

Subject: Re: I just got a CD from EV? From: bolly shri To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:06:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: maybe in line with dvd k sessions your bank account is practising meditation for you I'd check it out if I were you they haven't sent me a cd and my account is never blissed out bolly shri

Subject: Re: I just got a CD from EV? From: Kev To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 06:57:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I to got that crapy CD. Is this the so called propagation that M keeps going on about and EV/M keeps asking the poor premies to pay for. Down below CW suggests I return it to sender. If only I knew how to say Fuck Off in 12 different languages I would CW. Can any one help?

Subject: Ba Fongulo From: Italian To: Kev Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:50:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's Va fan culo you Stronzo [nt] From: PatD To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:21:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Mi dispiace... From: Italian To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:40:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: pero in Napoli, le dice 'Ba Fangulo!'. Lo so, che Va fan in culo significa 'go and put it in your ass'. Ba Fangulo significa 'go and have sex with yourself'. E una cosa dieletto. Capisce? Struzo de Merda?

Subject: Non c'e un problema . In bocca lupo. [nt] From: PatD To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 21:39:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Huh? [nt] From: Livia To: Italian Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 17:52:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Huh?

Subject: I just got a STCD from EV? From: Loafing Person To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:31:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it truly horrible ? If it wasnt 6am I would be ringing you up and demanding that you sing 'Humin Heart' Once the motives are doubted, it is astounding how rapidly the manipulations of maharaji and EV become crystal clear. For as long as premies assume that maharaji's motives are unquestionable - the very gratitude they feel will never be seen as a carefully engineered trap. Now, although I cannot speak of Maharaji's motives with any authority, it IS valuable, I feel, for any person wishing to help maharaji in his 'work' to look at how it truly appears from the outside.. and not just the pre-conditioned aspirant perspective, but the neutral outside. And to gain any perspective at all you have to see Maharaji as a cultural blip. Keep walking....

Subject: Re: I just got a STCD from EV? From: bolly shri To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:14:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a little tip I get lots of cds from AOL never listened to any of them except when I string them through the fruit trees to keep the birds off and the breeze makes them tinkle ms honeyed words will probably do the job just as well bolly shri

Subject: Cultural bilge more like loaf From: hamzen To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 07:31:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you heard his muzak? It makes most new age lift music sound good, and that's hard to believe, the guy has no shame, either that or he's completely lacking in any aesthetic awareness, except one of a sub-hallmark variety, by their fruit shall you know them indeed.

Subject: It has to be said From: Bryn To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 08:29:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It pains me to say this, but (gulp) when a loyal far seeing prem I used to think about such matters thus: 'Well, he's got to appeal to the whole world y'know. So if you find it a bit low brow please bear in mind all those simple people in (name your area). Anyway its a bit better to be singing about love and fulfillment than endless sexual themes. Maharaji uses what he can to put accross his message.' AAAAARGH! Sorry about all that, it just had to be recalled and dumped. What a wierd man I was. Love Bryn

Subject: hhmmmmm From: hamzen To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:27:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn have a lot of sympathy for ya, but why can't he produce decent new age pap, it could still be pap, but decent, the guy has got NO musical talent whatsoever that I can see, in fact when it comes to creative he seems to have no talent full stop, except for some of his minimalist stage designs, and I;m being generous here. What always gets me, and got me, was if this experience is so unique, and he's supposed to be the master in this territory why does creativity dry up, just as true for premies too, where's the authenticity in that?

Subject: Hi Hamzen From: Bryn To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 08:02:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Ham, I went through hell with self delusion in the wonderful world of popular music. I was aided and abeted by the DLM/ev value system, into which I bought lock stock and barrel.(not stock aitken waterman). I think the problem is that premies regard themselves as spititual pioneers and deliverers of a message. This in their view absolves them of any need to listen to the details of what is around. Unfortunately the preciousness of their message also requires that 'only the best' be done. Originality never feels like only the best. It feels rough as a bears arse more like, and usually polarises and arouses friction among the fellow practitioners (musos, peers). Religious musical evangelists fall between two stools. (stools?). They fail to pick up on the subtlties of the form they are going to use as there vehicle (and its context too). Also they can never bear to bust anything wide open in a bid to originate, in case they fuck up in the eyes of God.Poor bastards. Premie and musician and megalomaniac,and sad lost soul at the same time! Oh well It's all out of MY system now at age 54. It was agony. MC: (with due reverence) 'Would you like to sing a song Bryn?' AAAArgh. If only I knew how to say fuck off in 12 different languages. Love Bryn

Subject: Re: hhmmmmm From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 17:59:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because when you're experiencing self-Knowledge, being creative is wasting the valuable time you could be poring over Maharaji's videos, memorising them so that you are always ready to recommend the perfect video to each potential new aspirant. Nothing could be more important than that!

Subject: Re: It has to be said From: bolly shri To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:18:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you had a bucket close by when you wrote that Bryn bolly shri

Subject: Have this too From: Bryn To: Bryn Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 08:37:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ and Satgurus. I remember in a written interview in 'And it is Divine or something.' someone mentioned the crucifixion of Jesus. M answered words to the effect: 'People did not respect Jesus, but I am going to be very strict about it'. Well joking aside, his statement seems revealing now. Maha clearly had no idea of the unique status of the Christ concept in the western mind. To M, Christ was a spiritual teacher, and spiritual teachers were obviously just variations on Jesuss.All gurus together. This was his unexamined assumption. Blissfully protected by this ignorance, he could confidently bring his own intentions into the same arena as those of JC., and spout freely. Where M hit paydirt, was when his naive bombast hit the ears of immature white men like me. Like Maha, I had not noticed either, the unique Christ-alone-in-history claims of the last 2000 years. But unlike his hugeness,I had been unconsciously schooled into a relationship with the Christian mesiah for-all-time notion as it pervades western culture. When I heard M,'s mighty statements ringing loud and true, I just assumed I was hearing the CHOSEN ONE. Not just one of the chosen ones, but THE chosen one, because thats the only sort of one who made such statements. We made a good team, the blind leading the blind. He was very lucky to get away with it for so long. It seems so obvious now. Teacher spouting salvation in the east does not equal teacher spouting salvation in the west. I wonder when he noticed that he was being listened to above his station over here. At the moment he looks like a man caught in mid proclamation atop Mount Olympus and trying insouciantly to scale himself down before anyone notices and starts throwing things. 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! He's got nothing to do with it!!' HO HO HO. Love Bryn

Subject: crystal clear From: PatC To: Loafing Person Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 03:03:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was it truly horrible ? If it wasnt 6am I would be ringing you up and demanding that you sing 'Humin Heart' Once the motives are doubted, it is astounding how rapidly the manipulations of maharaji and EV become crystal clear. For as long as premies assume that maharaji's motives are unquestionable - the very gratitude they feel will never be seen as a carefully engineered trap. Now, although I cannot speak of Maharaji's motives with any authority, it IS valuable, I feel, for any person wishing to help maharaji in his 'work' to look at how it truly appears from the outside.. and not just the pre-conditioned aspirant perspective, but the neutral outside. And to gain any perspective at all you have to see Maharaji as a cultural blip. Keep walking.... --- I quoted your post just in case someone missed it not knowing who the poster was. It's a little jewel and I hope you keep it and post it to every wavering premie who arrives here.

Subject: Return to sender,Address Unknown From: CW To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 19:54:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No such number,no such name:) Please return to Sender.There is obviously a mistake. Misdirected mail. Your contribution speaks for itself.Thank you...

Subject: God, you are funny, Des.. From: Nigel To: CW Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 20:14:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You actually like that stuff? - The squeaky boy's 'message'? How old are you? Ever heard of self-repect? You are in a cult. Wake up, for fuck's sake.

Subject: Darshan only £295 From: jethro To: All Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 05:21:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: >>Subject: March 24th Glastonbury Dharshan >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:45:33 -0000 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A One Day Dharshan >> >> with The Buddha of this Age >> >> His Holiness >> Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche >> In Glastonbury, U.K. >> >> Sunday March 24th, 2002 >> >> Who Is His Holiness Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche? >> >> His Holiness Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche was discovered and >>recognized beginning in 1984 by a series of Tibetan spiritual leaders as a >>Tulku, or a child born in perfection, divinely awakened and a living saint. >>In 1998 His Holiness was enthroned in a formal recognition ceremony in >>Kathmandu Nepal as Maitreya, the Buddha of this age, by Ven. Khenpo >>Khyenrab Gyatso. In November 2000 he was enthroned at the Dema Monastery in >>Kham Tibet, recognized as the western born reincarnation of the founder of >>Tibetan Buddhism, Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche, by the Buddhist Master His >>Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche. Over 120 monasteries have been turned >>over to his care and leadership and more enthronements are in preparation >>for 2001. >> >> His Holiness has been identified and acknowledged by multiple >>leaders of Tibetan Buddhism as the reincarnation of Gautama Buddha, >>Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche, Tsong Khapa, Jesus the Christ and the Western >>born Buddha Maitreya, the Living Buddha.The designation of Rinpoche means >>that He has attained at least the level of Bodhisattva who compassionately >>reincarnates until all sentient beings attain Buddhahood. >> >> It is His Holiness' focus to spiritually and financially support the >>monasteries under his care & direction to ensure their well-being and >>healthy living. His projects include building, restoring and supporting >>monasteries worldwide. In addition, he is bringing Living Masters of Loving >>Wisdom to the United States to facilitate their work for the awakening of >>humanity and to initiate true monastic life in the United States. >> >> What is Dharshan? >> >> lDharshan means sitting in the presence of an Enlightened Being , >>who is the head of a monastery. It is an incredible opportunity to receive >>from Buddha Maitreya on all levels. >> >> lThe day is spontaneously unique. His Holiness will answer questions >>& intuitively respond to the group, therefore helping to answer & >>facilitate the teachings for that group. >> >> lBeing in the Presence of His Holiness will connect you to the merit >>of your past lives, facilitate personal and planetary healing and further >>your ability to achieve your Soul's purpose in this and future lives. >> >> lAttending Dharshan supports Buddha Maitreya's sacred projects . >>Your donation connects you to grace and Merit of sponsoring the restoration >>of monasteries & providing for new monasteries in Tibetan Buddhism. >> >> l70% of profits go to assist exiled Tibetan Buddhists & Lay people >>in need in Tibet, Nepal & India. Donations to support Buddha Maitreya's >>charities are greatly appreciated. >> >> What Will this Dharshan be About? >> >> 'The focus of teachings of this Dharshan will be the understanding >>and use of the Etheric Weaver, and the Etheric Weaver in relationship to >>the glands and the 7 Rays. >> >> How do I Prepare to Attend Dharshan? >> >> Work with Healing Tools & Sacred Music as Much as Possible. >> >> His Holiness has developed Etheric Healing Tools, Meditation >>Pyramids and Soul Therapy Music that restore the physical and subtle bodies >>.Work with these healing systems will enhance a participants receptivity >>and facilitate a process of self-healing beneficial in and of itself. >> >> Soul Therapy Meditation >> >> For Personal and Planetary Healing H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya >>Rinpoche has set up Worldwide Soul Therapy Meditation Rooms with room size >>Pyramids and combinations of His Etheric Healing Tools such as Vajras and >>Etheric Weavers that are Synergistically applied for Self Healing and Soul >>Integration. >> >> Plan to Wear All-white Clothing for Dharshan & >> >> Refrain from Wearing Strongly Scented Personal Products & Heavy >>Makeup. >> >> His Holiness explains that the vibrational frequency of white, >>allows each person to connect to the energy most beneficial in the moment >>for them. By wearing white and refraining from wearing heavy makeup', >>perfumes or creams with strong odors each person does not interfere with, >>or influence the other's human right to connect to who they are and not be >>influenced by other's personalities. >> >> One Official Recognition & Enthronement of >> >> H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche >> >> Took place in November 2000 >> >> By His Disciple, the Buddhist Master, >> >> His Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche >> >> In his first incarnation as Namkha Lekpa His Holiness was a master >>in Sutra, Tantra, analytical meditation, debating and also composed books >>on Dharma. His attainment of spiritual realization was incredible. He flew >>riding on a drum and his footprints on the rocky mountain called >>BHAR-LHA-DAK can be seen even today. He subdued all the evil spirits that >>other Lamas failed to do and transformed them as the protectors of Buddha >>Dharma. >> >> The eighth incarnation of Namkha Lekpa known as Dema Tulku >>incarnated in this life into the lineage of Rezyin Chogyal Lingpa. He was >>born in 1968 and his parents were Tulku Rongther Aser and Gyalhor Tashi >>Lhamo. He received teachings from his older brother Sakyayate Tulku and >>then went to primary school. From the age of 10 until the age of 16 he >>carved wood and stone into statues of Buddhas, and through this activity he >>helped a thousand people attain a virtuous livelihood Between the ages of >>17 and 19 he received teachings from Kagyu Lama Nechen Gyalse, Kagyu Lama >>Tsopa Yunga, Kuncho Chudu, Naro Chodup Powa and others. >> >> From the age of 17 to the age of 29 he studied at the Sershul >>Buddhist University, and at Aridza and Dzongsar Tibetan Colleges. His >>teachers included Gelugpa Abbot Thupten Wopo, the renowned Nyingmapa Abbot >>Pentse, Sakya Lama Pema Demcho, and Gelugpa Tulku Yeshe Gyal. Under these >>holy Lamas Dema Tulku Rinpoche studied all four sects of Buddhism and from >>the age of 21 he bagan his teachings to over a hundred students. >> >> Through his diligent studies and his aptitude for the Dharma from >>previous lives, when he was 26, Dema Tulku Rinpoche received the >>meritorious rank of Abbot from Khenchen Petse, and from that time his >>teachings have gone out to many hundreds of students. >> >> In His 29th year, His Holiness Dema Choktrul Rinpoche was formally >>recognized as the reincarnation of Trungpa Rinpoche, and returned to His >>Monastery Dema Tsemo in Kham Tibet. >> >> In the year 2000 Rinpoche met and recognized his teacher from his >>previous incarnations, H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Guru Rinpoche. >> >> In November of 2000 Rinpoche offered the Dema Tsemo Monastery, the >>University of the 5 Shastras, to H.H. Tulku Buddha Maitreya Rinpoche and >>held a large enthronement ceremony for the official recognition of Buddha >>Maitreya Rinpoche as the incarnation of the Buddha Maitreya and the Senior >>Rinpoche(teacher) of the University along with over 100 other tutelary >>monasteries. The enthronement was an auspicious event with more than 30,000 >>in attendance from the tutelary monasteries and the large villages of >>people which the University was established to support. >> >> >> >> >> Dharshan Practicalities >> The offering to attend the One Day Dharshan is $400 (£295) >>including non-vegetarian, wholesome meal. >> >> Like the profits generated by the sales of Buddha Maitreya's >>metatronic tools, handcrafted by volunteer Buddhist monks and nuns, >>offerings go towards projects of the Church of Shambhala Vajradhara >>Maitreya Sangha, which under the direction of HH Buddha Maitreya aims to >>manifest the liberation of all human beings, through the Externalization >>process of Christ and the Masters of Loving Wisdom. >> >> For the individual the offering, made from the heart without >>fanaticism, acknowledges the person as being One with the Buddha, >>consequently manifesting in that moment through the Buddha's blessing as a >>long process of life changes; the coming together of loved ones; the >>recapitulation of past merit and virtues from previous lives; and the >>rearrangement of all past, present and future relationships into right >>order. The person is Reborn into the Body of Christ. >> >> And, as one would offer money for blessings and the depossession of >>the evil spirit, one should also offer in order to transform the karma of >>money in their life. >> >> >> >> You Can Help Save the Living Masters & >> Heal the World >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If you have anything to share about using His Holiness' Healing >>tools, would like to make an order for any of the Etheric Weavers, Vajras, >>Geometric Forms, Shambhala Froms, Pyramids, Soul Therapy Music, Dharshan >>Video Teachings >> >> Please Call Glastonbury - 01423 83248 >> >> >> For more information on the web www.buddhamaitreya.org and >>www.tibetfoundation.org >>

Subject: Glastonbury - NewAge Supermarket of UK From: Dave Punshon To: jethro Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 04:46:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, I thought buddhist bullshit was ok From: Jim To: jethro Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 22:19:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, I could have sworn the buddhists were a cut above all the other cults. You know ......

Subject: Buddha's in the eye of the beholder. :) From: Jack Kornfield To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:28:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets. Similarly, when a bullshitter meets a Buddhist, all he sees is bullshit. Is it possible your dogma was run over by your karma? Oh, never mind. Ho, ho, ho!! May the infinitely wise Atman bless you with loving-kindness as you awaken. Namaste, Jack Kornfield Never a guru, bullshitter, pickpocket or saint 'cause Buddha says so.

Subject: so a con-artist could be a Buddha? From: cq To: Jack Kornfield Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 14:46:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bonafide ex-flake who's cornered the market in pure corn? that's not why they call you 'Cornflake' is it, bro? Shit man, you sound flakier than Rajneesh in his pre-nitrous oxide days (though not in his post-nitrous oxide days, you dig?) Flake? Mmmmmm, gimme a Cadbury ...

Subject: Re: so a con-artist could be a Buddha? From: Kornflakes To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:14:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As the great Buddha once said in all his prescience: You'll never go broke overestimating the naiveté of human beings. Kornflakes Never a con, always a pro and Flakier than thou forever.

Subject: I guess Buddhas are the most naive of all From: cq To: Kornflakes Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:47:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Namaskar, O Flaky One. You say: 'When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees is his pockets' if the converse is true (i.e. 'when a saint/Buddha meets a pickpocket, all he sees is his Buddha nature') - then I guess that makes the Buddha an easy mark. Strange though how most of these self-professed guru types are richer than sin. Perhaps they're just pickpockets in disguise.

Subject: If you see Buddhas on the path, laugh! From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:55:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CQ, I know it's popular to dis anyone who seems to be presenting a better way these days. Kornfield is absolutely not a power tripper or in it for the money. Others may be but he's really not. The guy freely contributes quite a lot of time working with gangs, prisoners and troubled youth so that goes beyond 'richer than sin guru-type' in my book. Maybe you were referring to the Tibetan Buddhist in UK. If so, never mind (Buddhist joke). I posted in this thread as Jack Kornfield in a mock attempt at injecting humour in the ongoing subtext here of spirituality vs atheism. A friend who I mentioned that to said she was naive enough to think Kornfield actually had posted here. Sorry for any confusion my attempt at humor may have caused. FYI, someone else also posted as Kornfield in another recent thread. BTW, I am not a 'follower' of Kornfield nor practice Buddhist meditation, Buddhism or any other path except my own day-to-day walk through life. Richard, original Postie recipe

Subject: I don't remember that one From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 13:01:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it went 'if you meet the Buddha on the road - kill him immediately' (though obviously not literally, as I guess most readers here will know). It's an interesting saying, and one which has many levels of interpretation - but I guess at heart it's a Zen koan. As for you posting as Kornfield - hmmmmm. Very dodgy, I'd say, to be passing yourself off as another person (one who, I think, actually DID post here a month or two ago - or was that you talking to yourself?) Alter aliases aren't always off-limit though, at least not in my book. A pastiche of someone's style is sometimes made more humorous by adopting their name as well - I remember Dr Ziggy Freud used to make quite a few appearances on the forum, with some hilarious diagnoses of some of us posters. Pity, I was getting to like this Kornfield guy. 'Flakier than thou' is the kind of irreverent attitude that appeals to me. Reminded me of the Church of Sub-Genius ('you'll pay to know what you think' J.R. 'Bob' Dobbs, 1961).

Subject: An explanation cq From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:15:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was never my intent to pass myself off as anyone else. I thought everyone would get the humor. Perhaps we need to practice good netizenship by saying AKA as Scott did recently when posting as Cartman, a cartoon character - i.e. 'Cartman AKA Scott'. In that case no rational being would think a cartoon character was posting here but when posting as a real person as I did, it could be confusing. The earlier post from Jack Kornfield was definitely humor and not the Korn-ster himself. I think that poster was our own Mr. Heller. That started as a joke when I posted that we should bring in JK as a spiritual expert and Jim humorously replied as JK. FYI, my other forum personas are Postie, Dickie Pwickie and Mahatma Coat. Richard, eats ice cream koans

Subject: OK, Mr Koanhead From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:45:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Never your intention? oh, PinOcchio! Koan For John Cage For one indeterminate moment I dwell on a story Of two monks who happened upon a sobbing woman at the river's edge My son died this afternoon One of the monks picked up a stick, smacked her on the head Whispered smugly There. Now you have something to cry about A hitchhiker caught in a storm began to wonder which he desired more: escape from the rain or a break from walking He became so preoccupied by these musings he lowered his thumb And zoooom! this monk drove past, splashing him And suddenly everything became clear www.orb-store.com/graphics/conehead.jpg

Subject: OK, Mr Koanhead- :) LOL [nt] From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:57:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's Tibetan Buddhism From: Francesca :~) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 02:47:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very different from the stuff that Mike Finch or Richard Rogers was talking about. There are gurus in Tibetan Buddhism. But 'darshan' in Tibetan Buddhism? That's a new one on me. But don't you think he's going one better than the Maha? The focus of teachings of this Dharshan will be the understanding and use of the Etheric Weaver, and the Etheric Weaver in relationship to the glands and the 7 Rays. Also metatronic healing tools and pyramids. Expand your knick-knack collection today! ==f

Subject: Sounds like the Filament From: PatC To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 03:07:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Etheric Weaver in relationship to the glands and the 7 Rays?'' You're right - he does go one better than Ballyouguesswhat.

Subject: CAC? From: Jennifer To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:29:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alright, everyone here keeps mentioning CAC and I don't fully know what they are talking about, since it happened while I was off of the forums. Would someone please explain what it is specifically, if you don't mind. Thanks

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Marianne To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 23:57:01 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hi Jennifer. I was also one of the people targeted in the CAC attack. I'd be happy to chat with you about it, but off line. Email me if you want details. Hope you are doing well. I'm glad to see you posting here and there again. My best to your sis. Fondly, Marianne

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Jim To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:50:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer, Here's a link where there's a brief comment on CAC and a response from us CAC targets. If you'd like to see one of the CAC profiles, email me: jimheller@shaw.ca EPO on CAC www.ex-premie.org/pages/jwcac.htm

Subject: Re: CAC? From: Jennifer To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 22:56:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim I should have known it would be on EPO--duh! Thanks for the link. Jennifer

Subject: and or From: The real Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:04:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: check this link, though not complete IT IS SO once there, click on CAC Incident in the top bar. Cheers, Salam, monitoring F7 in case a caca shows up.

Subject: I love Jim and Patsie From: Salam To: The real Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:33:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just seeing if you're on your toes. The other Salams aren't me and this isn't Salam either. Quack

Subject: Re: I love Jim and Patsie From: To: Salam Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:37:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fuck off cat.

Subject: Please note From: Catweasel To: Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:03:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not me. Sorry,not my style.... (Tell me ,will I also be blamed for the Trade Towers eventually?)

Subject: It was me From: Sir Dave To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:17:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought my duck pic made it obvious. I am the forum duck. Quack

Subject: Re: It was me From: salam To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ok, sorry CW, fuck off SD.

Subject: Question for premies From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:14:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After Mahatma Fakiranand and an ashram 'brother' tried to kill Pat Halley, DLM issued the following press release (where's Catweasel's spinning heads when we need them?): Last night Pat Halley, the notorious pie thrower, was brutally attacked by two assailants who then fled the scene. The local members of the Divine Light Mission heard of this incident and became aware that the Divine Light Mission personnel or devotees of the Guru Maharaj Ji might be involved. They notified the young Guru at his residence in L.A. The Guru Maharaj Ji immediately requested that the Divine Light Mission conduct a full investigation to see if any information concerning the parties responsible could be brought to light. As a result of this investigation, the assailants were located. They confessed their part in the incident and offered to turn themselves in. The local authorities were immediately notified and the suspected assailants are now being held in protective custody. Local and national officials of the Divine Light Mission are extremely shocked and appalled by the occurrence of this event, for the brutal action taken is in direct opposition to all that the Mission stands for and to the express wishes of the Guru Maharaj Ji. The young Guru, Himself, was amazed when the news was relayed to Him. He expressed his deepest regret of the incident and his concern for the welfare of Mr. Halley. He further extends his regards to Pat Halley's family and friends with the assurance that the Divine Light Mission wishes to help in whatever way possible to see that the persons responsible are brought to justice. ' Later, at Millenium, Maharaji gave his last press conference. In a completely embarrassing display of adolescent pique, after his lackeys were unable to deflect the question, Maharaji was forced to talk about the incident. Shifty-eyed and tight-lipped, he muttered a promise that he was 'looking into' the matter, he could assure everyone. Now, years later, we know a little more about this situation. For one, we know that it was Maharaji himself who directed Mike Donner to secrete Fakiranand out of the country, first to Canada, then to Europe. Donner has explained all that in detail. We also know that Fakiranand actually toured as a mahatma in Europe for the next few months, right up to Millenium in November. Apparently, nothing was said there to the communities that he visited about him being a fugitive at the time or about Maharaji being his accessory after the fact. Question, then: Was Maharaji lying when he told the press that he was looking into the Fakiranand matter? What do you make of all this?

Subject: Re: Question for premies From: Pauline Premie To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:49:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, At the time of Millennium, Maharaji was looking into lots of things, especially into bringing peace to the world, and the news media just wasn't willing to help him. Like he said in the press conference, when did the media ever do anything to helping him establish world peace? Really, it's the media's fault that the entire world doesn't have knowledge now. As for Fakiranand, he was confused and didn't meditate. He was in his mind and the Perfect Masters have always had to deal with confused people into power trips in his service. And he also has to put up with evil naysayers like you. So, in that sense you are doing a service for Maharaji. Somebody has to oppose him, and it might as well be you. It might even be happening by his grace. Ever think of that? I'm sure Maharaji did look into the Fakiranand matter and I'm sure that people around him, not him, messed up, probably with good intentions because they felt is was better to commit an aiding and abetting an attempted murdered and to wisk Fakiranand out of the country as Mr. Fakir, in the name of bringing peace and love to the world, by Maharaji's grace. It would have been so distracting to have them put on trial and stuff in Detroit, which was so full of mind. Although not a leaf moves without Maharaji, I'm sure in that case, leaves moved and Maharaji knew nothing about them. He was busy with playing chess in the Millennium Plaza Hotel in his 'master bedroom' and supervising the swan motif bathroom fixtures, there by the grace of the master. Pauline

Subject: Pauline, What's the Matter? From: Bob Agwancci To: Pauline Premie Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:20:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pauline, first of all, I've been missing your contributions here very much of late, was just thinking about you last night and am glad you had a minute from your very busy SS&M schedule to post your latest insights in reply to Jim. Of course, your take on the matter is completely on point and that at the most significant event in the history of mankind, skull bashing really needn't have been brought up. Agreed. But, Pauline, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? You sound so down. It couldn't be the news that there's nothing happening in M's world. Zip. Could it? But, on the other hand F7's been no picnic this past month or so, reading more like a morturary trade magazine than a fun protestor website. Or that you've been picking up aluminum soda cans for over two years now on the side and finally traded in your old Betamax player for a reconditioned VHS format tape player and now Visions is out of business? Or that you just missed out on North America's first darshan stage and darshan line in near 20 years in Arizona last September for the now defunct Resource Team (Major Donor Program) by about $4,980 and had to settle for not even hearing about it? Come on, Pauline, let's hear some real bliss like only we know how. You sound more like Nolan Richardson than Susan Johnson today. Please recheck your used vaccuum cleaner bags for some of that bliss dust that has to be everywhere in your home and you must have picked up in the last couple of months.

Subject: To Livia from below From: R2 To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:09:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia I want to respond to a couple of posts from you below. In one post you said: Integrity - I have to admit my integrity is not what it was before I received Knowledge. Funny things happen to it in Maharaji's world. Making Maharaji and Knowledge one's priority, in my view, distort and corrupt one's interactions with the rest of the world - unless you lead a bit of a double life in that you give more weight to other things than Maharaji recommends, that is, as somebody so aptly pointed out above. Truly making Maharaji and Knowledge your priority leads unfortunately to a blinkered existence, in which a true sense of integrity becomes of secondary importance. I am trying to get my integrity back. You went on to “clarify” for me and Harry about your assertion that Jagdeo was still touring “under Maharaji’s agya”, and that he was seen by Kelly some time back living a life of privilege in India. What Kelly reported is a hell of a lot different than Maharaji sending Jagdeo out on tour. Was that supposed to support your conviction? As for your response to Harry, someone quoted that a “reliable source” said he was on tour. You just believe that without question??? Surely many people would notice someone as infamous as Jagdeo. Any of them come forward corroborating Abi’s story? Did anyone come up with the video you mentioned showing him? Integrity to me Livia means believing what you have seen, and NOT filling in the dots with one’s imagination. That by the way also applies to premies that support Maharaji. What I expect from people is honesty and integrity in their reasoning. What I hear from you is supposition with nothing substantive to base it on. Another thing. You deferring to Maharaji somehow responsibility for your own lack of integrity is incredulous. Hey Livia, YOU are responsible for the current condition of your character, no one else. To blame someone else for a perceived character flaw appears to me to be the epitome of what defines many ex-premies’ approach to life. IMO it is irresponsible, adolescent, and explains a lot to me of why Knowledge didn’t work for you. Regards Richard

Subject: Try this... From: Nigel To: R2 Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 10:55:28 (EST) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Integrity to me Livia means believing what you have seen, and NOT filling in the dots with one’s imagination. That by the way also applies to premies that support Maharaji. What I expect from people is honesty and integrity in their reasoning. What I hear from you is supposition with nothing substantive to base it on. How about believing eyewitness testimony, Richard? Do you do that sometimes? Often even, or just plain never? What about Mike Donner's accounts of M spiriting fakiranand out of the USA and then sending him on tour? Dettmers' detailing of the shabby hit-and-run episode? Numerous accounts of M being drunk and abusive..? His disgusting treatment of Jagdeo's victims.. etc. Not too many dots need filling in, I wouldn't think. How on earth can you come here preaching integrity whilst blindly following a guru whose own complete lack of that attribute is obvious to all but his slavering cult zombies?

Subject: To R2 and Livia and all Re:Jagdeo From: Kelly To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 14:53:09 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Re: Jagdeo I spent quite a lot of time in the Delhi ashram between 1996 and 1998. There were two major events held there each year. Baisaki (or Vaisaki) which, as far as I can tell is basically a Sikh festival, however at Shri sant yog ashram, as it was called then they sort of amalgamated it with Holi which is a Hindu festival. This was generally held in early April. The other event was Hans Jayanti, held in early November (8th or 11th) to celebrate Shri Hans' birthday. My 'service' was to organise and supervise the set-up for 'Western' premies, known as Tent City. I used to arrive at the ashram a month or so before the event. I stayed in a simple but quite lovely accommodation block known then as the IOC. Very simple basic rooms with solar powered showers. (When I get my website up I'll post pictures) surrounding a courtyard with frangipani and bougainvilleas. When I arrived there were only a handful of service personel, half a dozen or so....and Mahatmaji...aka Jagdeo. Apart from his name,I didn't really remember him from the early days in London. He was accorded a lot of respect, I saw ordinary premies touch his feet and he was basically waited on hand and foot. At first I fell in with this behaviour, but increasingly it annoyed me that he demanded personal attention. For instance, there is a communal dining room, in the early days when I first got there there would be about seven of us, and we would all go to the self service counter to get our food....but not Mahatmaji. He had his food brought to the table and seemed to treat the staff as his personal servants. I never quite understood what he was doing there in the first place , since there was a separate area called Mahatma Niwas where the other mahatmas were accommodated. It was definately a priveliged position which he exploited to the full. All the staff were at his beck and call and I have told the story before of seeing one of the young housekeeping girls ( aged 15 or16) crying because she did not want to go to Mahatmaji's room. This memory has haunted me in the light of Susan's and Abi's experiences and I have endeavored to shed some light on it by contacting and informing the then manager of the ashram Deepak Bhandari. Deepak told me that Jagdeo had been challenged and had denied all allegations against him but had left the ashram of his own accord and gone back to his family somewhere in India. This was (at a guess) early 1999. He has definitely not toured since then, and had not toured for years prior to that. Although he told me that he sometimes spoke at events in Delhi. The stories of him touring in Africa in the last few years were based on a misunderstanding and not true. Where he is now, I don't know, but I am sure he is in India and I am sure that M and the Indian honchos do know where he is and how to find him. They just choose not to. Or they choose not to tell. Karen Ringrose

Subject: Rawat's obligations From: PatD To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:50:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it true that Jagdeo,along with Sampuranand(lately deceased on a visit to London) were the people who took him under their wing after his father died? So he owes him... Given that Rawat's life has been dedicated to the fulfilment of his own whims & aspirations,without any regard to those of the willing slaves he recruited,why should he care about allegations against a man whom he might consider a favourite uncle. I'd say he has to look after Jagdeo regardless. The edifice is built on proximity to the living lord,knock out an important brick & who knows what might happen. All the best: Pat Dorrity

Subject: Re: integrity From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:52:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, about integrity, and my admitted growing lack of it in Maharaji's world. You commented on this in a somewhat contemptuous manner; you also implied that my premie friends must be some sort of low-life if they also displayed a lack of integrity. I am only talking about what I saw, Richard, over many years in the premie world, in my home town, in London and in the USA. Without naming names, I saw people very high up in the Mission or Elan Vital doing things they wouldn't want the community at large to know about, whilst pontificating about divine bliss. Saw countless, countless premies having affairs with each other's partners without a thought as to the pain it would cause. I saw premies betraying each other and doing each other down in numerous ways. I saw a lot of premies behaving with a lot less integrity than most people I know without Knowledge. This isn't to say that I didn't see premies performing acts of incredible kindness too, of course I did, but this didn't seem to be particularly a result of the experience of Knowledge. In fact, the premies with apparently the strongest experience of Knowledge and the most devotion often seemed to me to be the coldest and the most wrapped up in themselves. Richard, to observe that one's character took a dive whilst following a particular path isn't to blame Maharaji. I should have seen what was happening and remained true to my own better instincts. I made the choice to keep following that path, and I take responsibility for that to a certain extent. But you have to remember that that path was portrayed as the one true path, the road to enlightenment and divine love, so for many people it isn't exactly an easy path to leave. It is now obvious to me that the practice of Knowledge does not in itself lead to better character, and surely this is something that premies should question. I quoted from an utterance of Shri Hans Ji a few days ago and you still haven't given me your comments. They would be appreciated, as I have asked you for them more than once. You also failed to respond when I asked you down below if there was anything Maharaji could do that would cause you to doubt him. Where, in other words, do you draw the line? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: integrity From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 18:18:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, Speaking of integrity, you've posted, as fact, a bunch of stuff thats patently untrue. You've repeated it, as gospel, a few times. Your friend Kelly completely contradicts you above. What you wrote about Maharaji 'encouraging' Fakirinand to violence is equally untrue. In light of that, I hope you'll respond to the questions I asked of you below, which you 'disappeared' before answering. It's time this mindless repetition of hurtful, innacurate bullshit ceases, by those who claim integrity. 'Can you give me any reason why, Harry, this is more likely to be untrue than true?' Livia, I certainly hope this isn't the way you discern the truth in other areas of your life! It's beyond belief to me that you would apply such a weak standard to Maharaji, who presumably meant a great deal to you for a part of your life. Would you so easily swallow something about a friend or relative? God, I hope not. This is on the level of, 'a reliable source told me that Richard Gere was treated in the emergency room for felching a gerbil!' By the way, that was believed in the U.S. by thousands of people and was passed around as the truth. I know Deepak, who's a lovely, honorable Nepali guy who runs the ashram in India. He confronted Jagdeo after hearing the horrible charges against him, 20 years after the fact like everyone else, whereupon Jagdeo denied it and burst into tears. He left there (that was '99, I believe) and hasn't returned since. Do you think pedophilia is a badge of honor in India? He was publically shamed and most certainly has not been 'on assignment.' Did it ever occur to you that the 'reliable sources' you've been so eager to believe, aren't reliable at all? Are you that committed to trashing Maharaji based on hearsay or are you this gullible in general? Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Are you aspiring to achieve the world-view and state of being of Jim Heller, Joe Whalen or Michael Dettmers? Is anyone? Seriously? Do you really think about who and what you're listening to? Be honest, you'd rather believe this stuff to support your current view, however you arrived there. If you were a friend, I'd suggest you take a long look at that. Be well.

Subject: answers to Harry's questions From: Livia To: Harry Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:10:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did it ever occur to you that the 'reliable sources' you've been so eager to believe, aren't reliable at all? Are you that committed to trashing Maharaji based on hearsay or are you this gullible in general? Of course it has. And in the past I considered all those who criticised Maharaji as deluded,whatever. However, in the case of the Jagdeo issue, it was the absence of any openness on behalf of Elan Vital, and certainly the complete absence of any letter from them, that made me begin to question. I described above the sort of letter that would have been appropriate; they didn't write it. Maharaji could have directed them to write that letter - he didn't. Until then I had never doubted Maharaji's character; at that point I began to. Nothing to do with 'trashing Maharaji' on hearsay, or 'gullibity' (gullibility???) I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the reports of Jagdeo's abuse of children, and nor should you. And if you take that as fact,as I expect you do, what do you feel about the response of Elan Vital? And please don't separate Maharaji from Elan Vital - he is perfectly capable of telling them how to act. Are you aspiring to achieve the world-view and state of being of Jim Heller, Joe Whalen or Michael Dettmers? Is anyone? Seriously? Do you really think about who and what you're listening to? I don't know any of the above personally, and in fact we all seem to have very different world-views. Jim can't stand Noam Chomsky, I like him. Jim's an atheist, I haven't arrived at that view. I haven't a clue what Michael Dettmers is on about when he talks about his business and interests. But they all seem to me to be intelligent, discriminating and intellectually exacting people, which is an awful lot more than a lot of premies. They also refuse to accept anything as fact until they are sure. However, this doesn't mean you can't surmise and draw inferences. We all do that, according to our biases, and I'm afraid premies do it all the time, so if you're going to accuse Jim, Joe, Mike et al of unfair bias, you'll have to accuse most of the premies too! I would suspect that your pro-Maharaji bias is extremely strong if you still have no doubts whatsoever about his character in light of the handling of the Jagdeo affair. Please let me know if there are any other questions I haven't yet answered, and I'll be more than happy to answer them. All the best, Livia

Subject: Ya know, Harry From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 16:26:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, I'm pretty sure you are Harry Ward, who I recall as a very decent guy, and somebody who I believe is sincere. I also understand that you have done quite well for yourself, live down the hill from the great man who never claimed to be God, and due to your location and affluence, are part of the Maharaji, Malibu crowd, or as some call it the 'Malibu mob.' Correct? If I have you mixed up with somebody else, I'm sorry, but I have asked you before if you are Harry Ward and you have not responded. You might consider that your views on Maharaji are heavily influenced by your relative position in the Maharaji world, as opposed to 99.99% of the other premies. Do you think that has any effect? Second, what do you think my 'world view' is, seeing as you are making disparaging remarks about it and warning Livia to try to remain uninfected by me? Just what the hell are you talking about, Harry? Is anyone who questions Maharaji by definition have a bad "world view?" I am the very same person you knew in Chicago, but I just came to the conclusion that Maharaji is a fraud, not for me, and that I was lied to by him. Then, to top it off, he now lies about what really happened, which I know he lies about, because I was there. I really couldn't care less if he drinks, takes drugs and has sex with premies, but I do care about the fact that he hid the kind of person he was through an elaborate 'x-rating' system for many years, until EPO came along and exposed him. I think I had a right to know that when I was forking over every cent I earned to keep him living in luxury. I think he had an obligation to inform us that he really wasn't god, didn't dispense 'grace,' wasn't really going to save the world, that he smoked dope and cheated on his wife while telling us to be drug free and celibate, and all the rest. And he still has the obligation, and he still, to this day, won't cop to it. And regarding Jagdeo, I personally know at least one of the victims, whom I respect enormously, and I believe her when she said she told Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne about Jagdeo molesting kids as early as 1977 and I find it asbolutely incredible and Randy and Judy didn't tell Maharaji. I also personally know that Jagdeo was touring the US, with full access to kids, as late as 1983, when I left the cult, and was still an exhaulted speaker, and presided over darshan lines as well. So, do the math. Do you think Maharaji helped harbor a pedophile, or not? Isn't it kind of pointing that way? And at the very least, isn't it completely appropriate and dictated by normal morals to ask the question? And why do we get no answer from Maharaji? Why don't the victims? Why dont' the premies? Finally, even if by some incredible set of events, Maharaji didn't know, when it was reported through this website, why didn't Maharaji confront Jagdeo himself and not have Deepak do it? He was Maharaji's Instructor, right? Maharaji is his "boss" and not Deepak. Who do you think is more likely to get a straight answer out of him instead of the lies they got? And why didn't Deepak turn him over to the police? And why hasn't Maharaji made any kind of public statement about any of this, and why has he allowed Elan Vital and his rabid lawyers to harrass and basically treat like shit, the victims to this day, the ones who have been willing to come forward? Do you care? If not, why not? That certainly doesn't sound like the Harry Ward I knew. And if you care, have you asked Maharaji about it? If not, why not? Why is he silent on this? What does he have to hide?

Subject: Re: integrity From: Livia To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 09:03:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, I now accept that the reality of what happened to Jagdeo after he was confronted about paedophilia was that he disappeared to his village. Thank goodness for that. Thank goodness he didn't go touring in Africa. However, something about the whole thing still stinks and I don't understand why you fail to see this. Apparently allegations were made about him years ago in Miami and nothing was done. Even if Maharaji didn't get to hear about it himself at that time, why did nobody else act? And years later, when Maharaji pesumably did get to hear about it, why has he still not done the right thing? If an old lady falls down on the street in front of you, there is a right thing to do. You bend down, see if the person is OK, administer help if you can, get help if you can't. I don't think anyone would argue with this. There are certain situations that call out for a certain, ethical response and that is one of them. Another situation that calls out for a certain ethical response is when someone with a position of influence in an organisation commits a sexual offence against a/some minor/s. The leader of that organisation then has an ethical duty to act immediately in a particular way. Anything less than that is less than ethical. As soon as Maharaji heard about Jagdeo's activities, a straightforward announcement should have been made to all the premies. Other victims should have been encouraged to come forward, apologies and/or compensation offered. And first of all, of course, Jagdeo should have been handed over to the authorities for questioning and trial. Deepak, who I also remember as seeming to be a decent sort of guy, did the right thing in confronting Jagdeo. But what happened? He denied it and slunk off. This must leave the victims with a sense of powerless outrage, and surely they deserve better. Quite honestly, if I had received a letter from Elan Vital such as the one I described above, once the intial shock about one of Maharaji's instructors being a peodophile had died down, I would have been impressed at their honest and courageous way of dealing with it. I would have thought no less of Maharaji, as there are peodophiles in every walk of life and I suppose it was never beyond the bounds of possibility that an instructor could be one and get away with it for years. But in the event, nothing was said at all, exactly in the manner of the Catholic Church or many other organisations who show moral weakness in their eagerness to cover up such things. In their attempt to bury the issue, it merely shows up a lack of moral fibre, and makes them look bad, very bad. I don't know, Harry, why you fail to see this. In answer to your points, of course I don't go around believing the worst of people on the basis of rumour and hearsay. To be totally honest, the lack of any statement from EV regarding Jagdeo, and this obvious desperate wish to bury the issue speaks volumes in itself, and immediately told me there's something very wrong at the heart of the organisation. It made me feel quite sick, and when I first realised what had happened, went around in a sort of daze of disbelief and shock that EV, and I'm afraid Maharaji by implication, could be so ethically wrong. I've got to go now but will add to this later. With regards, Livia

Subject: The human condition From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 20:48:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just what is the “right thing” to do in situations of child abuse? Has society answered that question? Of course we react as you have in your post. We all do. Well here’s one for you. What happens when you find out that a family member is guilty of this same crime? There you were reacting with outrage and indignation, as we all do, to stories in the media of fathers victimizing their children. Condemning them to a life, or death, worse than hell, with all the righteous indignation they deserve. Then you find out your father is one of ‘em. All your theories no longer apply. There is no more black and white wherein you can easily find solace, only many painful shades of gray. Jagdeo was Maharaji’s devotee and he was his Master. You may not think of that relationship as being of much value but believe me, both men did. For them, none could be higher. For these two men, that very relationship must catapulted them into the gray spectrum where easy answers are impossible to find. Yes, I feel for the victims. I react with the same sense of outrage as you do to the crime. But who are we to judge how someone reacts when they find out a loved-one has made such a heinous mistake? Have you ever been there to say? You see, between Jagdeo and Maharaji, this was not a public mistake but one of a personal nature.

Subject: R2-you are a fucking idiot! From: la-ex To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 21, 2002 at 23:57:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How the fuck can you even ask a question like that? What do you do when a man sexually assaults children for years and years? You do the right thing, asshole! And if one man (m) is master(what a joke!), shouldn't he be teaching the student (jagdeo)? And shouldn't the student be open to the teaching of the master? This is the kind of shit that makes so many leave.....the AMORAL atmosphere around the guru.....no one questions anything about the guru....no, that would be the mind..... Once you have bought into that concept (that the master cannot be questioned, and never,ever confronted), the brainwashing is complete....the master can do anything he wants, and the idiotic devotee never questions..... Once again, thank god for the human conscience and ithe internet! Why do you defend and protect an idiot like rawat? Why not grow up and think for yourself? How many innocent premies will try to rope in aspirants, never looking at epo (masters orders, you know), until they find out from the new potential aspirants that the man whose feet they kiss, is fucking his devotees, cheating on his wife, protecting pedophiles, getting rich off of poor premies, and has a problem with telling the truth and staying off of the cognac? The poor premies....getting fucked over by their beloved master...quite a relationship, isn't it?....very special to both men, indeed.... Why not try looking at rawat in a common sense objective way and realize what a deceptive, conniving little asshole he really is... Think about what you would feel like if you knew one of those kids and rawat is acting like he does......

Subject: Re: R2-you are a fucking idiot! From: R2 To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 16:16:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How the fuck can you even ask a question like that? What do you do when a man sexually assaults children for years and years? You do the right thing, asshole! And if one man (m) is master(what a joke!), shouldn't he be teaching the student (jagdeo)? And shouldn't the student be open to the teaching of the master? This is the kind of shit that makes so many leave.....the AMORAL atmosphere around the guru.....no one questions anything about the guru....no, that would be the mind..... Once you have bought into that concept (that the master cannot be questioned, and never,ever confronted), the brainwashing is complete....the master can do anything he wants, and the idiotic devotee never questions..... Once again, thank god for the human conscience and ithe internet! Why do you defend and protect an idiot like rawat? Why not grow up and think for yourself? How many innocent premies will try to rope in aspirants, never looking at epo (masters orders, you know), until they find out from the new potential aspirants that the man whose feet they kiss, is fucking his devotees, cheating on his wife, protecting pedophiles, getting rich off of poor premies, and has a problem with telling the truth and staying off of the cognac? The poor premies....getting fucked over by their beloved master...quite a relationship, isn't it?....very special to both men, indeed.... Why not try looking at rawat in a common sense objective way and realize what a deceptive, conniving little asshole he really is... Think about what you would feel like if you knew one of those kids and rawat is acting like he does...... --- Hey Ex, pull the burr out of your butt, put a check on your self-righteous indignation for a mili-second, and look at what I said. I said when a crime is committed by someone you love, the whole crime/punishment formula is stood on its end. Yeah, sitting on the side-lines you can condemn nameless criminals to socially approved punishments that are equal to the crime. But when you inject yourself, through an emotional connection, into the crime with the criminal, EVERYTHING CHANGES. Believe me my friend, I know what I’m talking about here! So you can argue just WHAT the right thing should have been but for you are doing so from the side-lines, but that is speculatory and therefore fruitless., i.e.: YOU DON”T KNOW THE WHOLE PICTURE. (And BTW you don’t even know the whole story from the victim’s side either.) And yet there you are smugly sitting in judgement as if you can afford to do so from the luxury of the side-lines. The amplitude of your bleeding heart makes me shake my head. No Ex, you are looking for black and white solutions to a subject that has just turned gray.

Subject: Re: R2-you are a triple fucking idiot! From: la-ex To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:20:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So now morality has become gray, has it? Take out maharaji's name from this equation and see if it's so gray... If I worked for Bill Gates, would I turn him in if he was molesting kids? You be I would. If I knew anyone who was doing that, I would turn them in. Plain and simple, R2...it's called doing the right thing, and its at times like that, that the true character of someone is revealed. So what 'character' has been revealed by all of this, besides that jagdeo is a lying pedophile? 1-maharaji doesn't have the balls to do anything about it, except hide behind ev lawyers and tell lies to the victims father... 2-ev, as usual, shows that they are spineless puppets of an alcoholic.. 3-You, R2, have shown that you are willing to defend the guru,and buy into the amorality of the guru scene, where no one questions the big guy.... Sorry it turned out that way for you, but you really are showing your true colors here R2... Why would you even consider for one second the defense of someone like this? I love children, and personally know some of the kids who were at one of the schools where jagdeo had his special 'kids satsang'... Now what would you do? Defend an alcoholic and a pedophile and prevent justice for children? How can you even begin to say that it's a tough call? Oh yeah, you're a triple fucking idiot, because besides defending this bullshit, you try to rationalize it to others, and then go out and 'spread the word' about the guru without telling others about what a 'special' guy he is, with such 'special relationships, indeed'.... Do you even know how to think or feel for yourself, when it comes to looking at the guru? Do you see how your association with maharaji has compromised you and weakened you as well? Do you think about things like that, or are you just 'in that experience' where there is no 'mind'?

Subject: Hey idiot, READ WHAT I WROTE!!! From: R2 To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:33:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would you turn your father in? Well, asshole, would you? Where the fuck does your bleeding heart take you then? Huh??? And fuck off with your morality pontification to me. You are not in a position to talk about my morality.

Subject: R2,you're a quintuple fucking idiot! From: la-ex To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 23:12:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two more idiotic statements by you, R2... Would I turn my father in, if he was molesting children? Damn straight I would, asshole. Second, do you think maharaji is your father? Was he jagdeo's father? What is the 'father' shit? He doesn't know you, or want to even know your name. Why defend his transgressions? It only brings you down to his level.....don't you see what he's doing to you? He's destroying your character, for one.... Good luck with your spiritual life, pal..... He who follows the maha, has a fool for a master.....

Subject: You just keep looking worse and worse From: R2 To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 02:02:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listen dork, I'll spell it out for you. You don't seem to have yourself under control enough to understand plain English so I'll make it simple English. And if that doesn't work maybe I'll try Spanish. Maharaji is not my father nor is he Jagdeo's father. The father I'm talking about is my real father. The one that molested my sister. The point I'm making is that it's easy to judge and condemn someone who has committed a crime when you do not love and care for that person. When you do it's a completely different story. Okay, so who the fuck knows, maybe you never cared for your father. So do you have any kids ex? If not then this example won't make much of a dent on your thick self-righteous exterior either. Can you imagine the years and intimate moments of caring that goes into raising a child only to find one day they have done something unthinkable. Do you in your simplistic and moralistic tunnel think for a second that doesn't change the equation re: crime and punishment. If you persist in bleeding your heart out 'for the sake of the children', then fuck off and we'll end this discussion. I would much prefer talking to someone who knows the bounds of their humanity than some moralistic wombat living in tinsel town who spends their pampered life bitching about their lost fucking past.

Subject: R2-you ARE worse and worse From: la-ex To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 10:39:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cool down, remember holy name and get real... WHO's living in the past?....Might that be you with your family problems? Bleeding heart problem?....Yes, I do side with the defenseless kid who is used by a sexual predator, rather than with the predator himself....do you have a problem with that? Simlistic?....yep, it's pretty simple allright....are you saying there is not clear cut right and wrong in this case with jagdeo, or any other predator for that matter? Moralistic?...yep, you bet, its all about morals....I'm clear on where I stand, with no gray areas on this one.... Have the 'constant remembrance of holy name' and 'never leave room for doubt' commandments left your brain and heart that clouded? Look at what your loyalty to the guru has done to you.... Defending a scam artist and a pedophile....gray areas of morality.....the 'special relationship' with the master, in which he is never questioned or doubted....you''re in deeper than you think pal, and it aint looing too good for you at this point... Wake up and smell the chai.....maybe you are on EPO for a reason....how about listening for awhile, maybe you'll see and learn a few things that would help you tremendously.... Remember, most of us exes, were just 'passin through' EPO, until we saw the light....

Subject: You have no credibility, liar From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 20:51:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, I'm repeating what I just posted above. You lied to me. You said you'd never posted under any other name but, according to PatC, one of the FA's, you used to post as 'Turner'. People like you are truly disgusting.

Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM***** thanks L.A.-ex [nt] From: OTS To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:56:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Agree, great post La-Ex From: Richard To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:27:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your eloquent post to R2 was so full of fury it brought to mind that GMJ quote from Montrose. And I paraphrase: And if the Father is watching his child crawling towards the fire and doesn't stop him, what kind of Father is he? He is not a Father. Something else maybe but not a Father. I would draw the parallel of M and Jagdeo's relationship as being like a father/son relationship. Just the kind of special relationship R2 posits as justification for M not acting responsibly. Using both R2 and M's own words, M has allowed Jagdeo to crawl back into the metaphorical fire when he had a chance to save him and countless victims from being damaged. Not a Father, not a Master.

Subject: addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 18:31:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Harry, do you ask yourself who you are listening to when you hear Maharaji blaming mahatmas for the concepts we all imbibed to the effect that Maharaji was the Lord? Does his playing down of who he originally said he was match what you felt at that time? And does Maharaji's current rewriting of history, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain amount of repetitions? I spoke to a premie recently, Harry, who told me she can't remember Maharaji ever implying he was the Lord. But she was there when he did - I remember, because I was there too! This must be the effect of listening to x amount of repetition of revisionist propoganda. Of course I had a profound experience back then, and still do when I meditate (the habit's gone too deep to break). But I also know cover-ups and revisionist lies when I see them, and so should you or anyone with a modicum of integrity or discrimination. Your apparent reluctance to question what exactly is going on should make you ask certain questions of yourself. Think about it. With regards, Livia

Subject: Rhea Dendom From: Harry To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 20:18:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, do you ask yourself who you are listening to when you hear Maharaji blaming mahatmas for the concepts we all imbibed In fact Livia, a large amount of the Indian dressing around the presentation of knowledge & Maharaji DID come from the mahatmas, Mata ji, etc., including how to behave, how to act towards and address Maharaji and some add-ons to the techniques, as well. You don't remember that? The first time I tried to adapt that mode of behavior in front of him, he laughed right in my face and made it clear I should be myself. Thank God I learned that early on, as I've had a great time with him ever since. Did you ever hear Maharaji say, 'this is how you should talk to each other...this is what you should say when you're doing laundry...this is what you should feel when blah, blah, blah?' Nope. A LOT of what people were doing was definitely transplanted Hindu behavior. I've heard Maharaji laugh many times at his own missteps and learning process in the completely unprecedented, uncharted waters of bringing knowledge to the Western world. But all along, even at 13, he was saying, 'don't believe me, have your own experience' and separating, albeit sometimes more successfully than others, the core from whatever the trappings of the time were. He's been cleaning the curry off of that cupcake for 30 years. Does his playing down of who he originally said he was match what you felt at that time? He matches what I felt at that time. Knowledge matches what I felt at that time. Not the cross-cultural grafting, individual power struggles or bureaucratic fuck-ups. How many js he has in his name or how much he downplays Mala dances from 24 years ago have never been the crux of anything for me. Is he playing down implications? Yes, he has been for a long time. Does that change the reality of anything? Not to me. But I also know cover-ups and revisionist lies when I see them, and so should you or anyone with a modicum of integrity or discrimination. Your apparent reluctance to question what exactly is going on should make you ask certain questions of yourself. Livia, for someone who's as gifted as you say you are for spotting revisionist lies, how do you explain the fact that you have been doing that exact thing, repeatedly? This is the original question I posed to you which you still haven't answered, instead, taking the classic politician's tack of answering with a different question. How about the bizarre, accepted portrait on this page of Maharaji as some kind of cross between Dean Martin & David Lee Roth, shooting bunnies in his bathrobe with a gallon of booze in one hand and an Army of crying, abused blondes following him? Any chance THAT could be a classic, revisionist lie? Hmmm? And people, good people, believe it! You have been repeating completely false, revisionist bullshit (Jagdeo is on tour, Maharaji & Fakiranand conspiring) and you haven't yet copped to it for one moment. You have been repeating and therefore spreading fraudulent information. How does that square with your grandiose proclamations of integrity? Do YOU question the 'information' you read here? It doesn't look like it. As for me and your assumption that I haven't asked any questions, how would have any way of knowing that? Speaking of a 'modicum of discrimination', one thing's for sure: I don't need to read someone else's doubts and opinions on an Internet bulletin board to find out how I feel about Maharaji, any more than I would read gossip to see how I feel about my wife, old friend or mother. I've seen way more than enough of Maharaji to have my essential questions answered to my abiding satisfaction. Perhaps you feel the same way and have reached a different conclusion. C'est la vie! regards right back atcha, Harry

Subject: Dia Rhea From: Pullaver To: Harry Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:47:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry, regarding your comments: In fact Livia, a large amount of the Indian dressing around the presentation of knowledge & Maharaji DID come from the mahatmas, Mata ji, etc., including how to behave, how to act towards and address Maharaji and some add-ons to the techniques, as well. You don't remember that? The first time I tried to adapt that mode of behavior in front of him, he laughed right in my face and made it clear I should be myself. Thank God I learned that early on, as I've had a great time with him ever since. He made it clear to you, so he could have just as easily made it clear to the rest of us via his dozens of talks and videotapes. But no, he had a vested interest in perpetuating the 'Indian concepts' like guru/perfect master, devotion, service, surrender, etc. In fact this was repeatedly re-inforced with arti (which he could have easily instructed everyone to stop singing), numerous references in his talks (Read all these quotes and then tell us who is to blame for spreading Indian concepts), etc., etc., etc. Harry, to ever suggest that the buck stops anywhere but at his 'holy lotus feet' is to be inflicted with a serious case of ostrichitis. Did you ever hear Maharaji say, 'this is how you should talk to each other...this is what you should say when you're doing laundry...this is what you should feel when blah, blah, blah?' Nope. Harry, do you ever remember your Lord telling you 'no chit-chat'? Do you remember Maharaji's directions concerning the ashrams, read this: About the Ashrams. A LOT of what people were doing was definitely transplanted Hindu behavior. I've heard Maharaji laugh many times at his own missteps and learning process in the completely unprecedented, uncharted waters of bringing knowledge to the Western world. But all along, even at 13, he was saying, 'don't believe me, have your own experience' and separating, albeit sometimes more successfully than others, the core from whatever the trappings of the time were. Like I said, none of your corrected thinking can convince anyone here that M was not ultimately responsible for any 'hindu trappings' being spread around the west. But really, this is just a red herring. The real issue is the false assertion that premies left Maharaji because he took away these trappings. That premies were somehow more attached to these transplanted hindu rites and rituals than they were to any purported experience of 'truth'. People left Maharaji then and now for essentially the same reason: the growing awareness that Maharaji cares little about the repercussions of his 'missteps' in their lives and cares only about Rawat Inc. How many funding drives for new and improved propogation initiatives must you endure only to watch Maharaji's profligate lifestyle expand exponentially and the actual number of people following him decrease. IMO, there is value in meditating and I continue to do so. What I have rejected is Maharaji's insistence that I be eternally tethered in gratitude and obeisance to his greedy, narcissistic, unethical leadership. BTW, I liked your (satirical) portrayal of 'Maharaji as some kind of cross between Dean Martin & David Lee Roth, shooting bunnies in his bathrobe with a gallon of booze in one hand and an army of crying, abused blondes following him'. However, a cross between Dean Martin and Ted Nugent would be more like it, seeing that rocker Ted is the cross-bow enthusiast. And you could throw Tony Robbins into the mix as well for good measure. Click on Tony and if you have the patience to wait for it to load, you will be amazed at how closely it resembles Maharaji's new site.

Subject: Whoops, 2nd link shld be: From: Pullaver To: Pullaver Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 20:26:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About the Ashrams

Subject: Good call on Tony Robbins From: Jim To: Pullaver Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 11:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Robbins site looks a LOT like M's. Why he's even got the 'Stay in Touch' thing happening.

Subject: How do you know this, Harry? From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 23:41:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have been repeating completely false, revisionist bullshit (Jagdeo is on tour, Maharaji & Fakiranand conspiring) and you haven't yet copped to it for one moment. How do you know that M didn't conspire with Fakiranand? We know, at minimum, that he conspired with him after the fact. M conspired with him to escape the states and run from the law. Surely, you don't question that, do you? So did M also actually give his divine agya to Fakiranand to attack Halley in the first place? I don't know. Do you? I think someone actually reported that they saw Maharaji talking angrily with Fakiranand back at the Detroit ashram after the attack. If that's correct, what do you think they were talking about? The weather? How well the Tigers were doing that summer? Face it, we already know that Fakiranand was such a guru freak he would never have done anything like that to Halley if he didn't at minimum think M would approve. Okay, maybe he got that terribly wrong. On the other hand, maybe he got it just right. After all, we also know that M lied about this incident to the press at Millenium. So, if he's capable of being an accessory after the fact, as he was, if he's capable of keeping Fakiranand working as a mahatma -- see, here's another thing: say Fakiranand acted completely on his own and M was truly surprised by his crazy, murderous devotee. Wouldn't that have made M mistrust Fakiranand so greatly that he wouldn't dream of allowing him to continue his service? But what if, on the other hand, Fakiranand was only following orders? See? Also, let's not forget that other guy, the American ashram premie. Do you think he would have gone along on this mission without some assurance from Fakiranand that he had agya? After all, don't forget that, publically, M had made a big point of telling his security goons at the Pie Throwing Ceremony not to hurt Halley. That premie, then, would have required some special proof that what M 'really' wanted was to have Halley 'visited', don't you think? You know, it's not as if it's all or nothing here. M might well have told Fakiranand to visit the guy, shake him up a bit, whatever. He didn't have to necessarily spell it out, even if he was behind the attack. Anyway, lots to ponder. I'm certainly up in the air about my suspicions, simply based on the facts we do know. How, then, are you able to say that you know for a fact that M had nothing to do with the attack? Beside wishful thinking, I mean.

Subject: ?'s for Harry or R2.... From: fly on wall To: Harry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 22:21:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regarding Jagdeo, I was wondering if either of you might have some appropriate comment about: 1-According to Abi, attorneys representing maharaji recently told her that maharaji was 'briefed' on the jagdeo affair 2 or 3 years ago, by THEM! At the same time, maharaji himself tells Abi's father that he never had heard of the jagdeo stuff until now. Question is, who is lying here? Would the loyal premies lie about their master? Or is the master lying? 2-In an open letter to EV that is on the epo site, one ex-premie writes to EV that he knows personally of circumstantial evidence about jagdeo's involvement with children in the unity schools. He asks them if they would like to know more about it. They don't reply. He asks them again in a 2nd letter. They don't reply. Is this OK with you? Do you understand how serious this really is? Do you understand what a serious crime it is to participate in any way in the covering up of any information relating to this? Does any of this bother you? Do you see how this is all part of a recurring pattern in which premies and maharaji will lie about anything, in order to protect the work of the master? I don't think premies can fully understand and feel things like this until they have left the blissful haze of the master. They pay an enormously high price to protect their master:they sell their character to protect someone who tells them he doesn't even want to know their name.... This is why when someone leaves maharaji and the bliss racket, they suddenly feel so free...they don't have to sell themselves anymore and are free to be themselves....

Subject: Re: ?'s for Harry or R2.... From: Fly flying free To: fly on wall Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 22:59:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You self importantly opine... 'This is why when someone leaves maharaji and the bliss racket, they suddenly feel so free...they don't have to sell themselves anymore and are free to be themselves....' What utter bollocks. You don't sound in the least bit free - not by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Check out the questions below and then tell us how the person who asked them could possibly be free. 'Is this OK with you? Do you understand how serious this really is? Do you understand what a serious crime it is to participate in any way in the covering up of any information relating to this? Does any of this bother you? ' One for you - Do you understand how embarrassingly seriously you take yourself? If that's freedom - God bless the eternal prison.

Subject: Re: Fly Spit From: OTS To: Fly flying free Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:45:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you understand how embarrassingly seriously you take yourself? Oh, this isn't a serious matter? Sexual and physical assaults aren't serious topics? I guess I just didn't get the lightness of the thread. YOU SOUND LIKE A COMPLETE IDIOT Enjoy your solitary confinement.

Subject: Fly Swat - thwack! LOL [nt] From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 18:06:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: NO JUSTICE.....NO PEACE, R2 [nt] From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:58:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's your peace...do what you like with it [nt] From: R2 To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 19:54:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Livia, so clear (nt) From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 19:06:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Well said Livia, great post. nt From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:59:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: seconded. BEST OF FORUM in fact (nt) From: cq To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 13:39:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seconded. BEST OF FORUM in fact (nt) JHB please note (or is J-M still i/c of the best-ofs?)

Subject: Through the Looking glass From: PatD To: Harry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 21:22:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you ever ask yourself, 'who am I listening to, anyway?' 'Does this match what I felt?' 'Do the same bits of crap, repeated x number of times, magically assume reality after a certain number of repetitions?' Can't resist pointing out that that is a description of Rawat's speeches,looked at from a different point of view to yours of course. I'd suggest you take a long look at yourself. Be honest, you'd rather believe this stuff to support your current view, however you arrived there. I can't speak for anyone else but in my case it was 'this stuff' that caused me to arrive at my current view.Which is that the Bollixshwar is not worthy to kiss my feet,& that he conned me into kissing his. When you, or anyone, or Himself,or his expensive lawyers, refute the allegations made against him,then maybe I'll think again. In the meantime, why do you guys always come out of the woodwork whenever an unusually eloquent poster shows up?

Subject: 'Why do you guys always come out From: That's easy To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 22:45:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of the woodwork whenever an unusually eloquent poster shows up?' Because the rest of you non stop bilge pumps aren't worth wasting more than say, one sentence on?

Subject: The weary and the weak From: PatD To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 21:48:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What place do they have in the brave new world? To blame someone else for a perceived character flaw appears to me to be the epitome of what defines many ex-premies’ approach to life. IMO it is irresponsible, adolescent, and explains a lot to me of why Knowledge didn’t work for you. I,along with thousands of others & I'm sure your own good self once upon a time,believed that K would eventually burn off the flaws leaving oneself 'god realised'. In a state of pure consciousness where petty personality is transcended,where all is love & the Kingdom of Heaven is here. I know there's been a lot of water under the bridge since those days,Rawat is no longer God Incarnate & all that,but for you to suggest that K doesn't work because the recipient isn't good enough is breathtaking cheek. What's the point of it if you have to be perfect to begin with? You aren't really talking about the meditation are you. You're talking about an internal relationship with with a ghost. The real person PPS Rawat,lives high on the hog,doesn't give a fuck about you,so why do you give him the time of day? Beats me Richard.

Subject: Re: The weary and the weak From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 11:55:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sweetie, thanks XXX I'm beginning to feel a bit beleaguered but have plenty more to say! Love, Livia

Subject: Re disappearing premies From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 16:17:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I just scrolled into inactive and saw your note to me. I was referring to R2, rather than 'John Smith', not that it makes much difference, the point is the same. My first thought was that R2 was one of the regulars, but, as I said, you can't be certain, and so when he came back for more with your soul v humanity thread, I copied off his post and took some time to write a reply....no response. There are indications that R2 is a regular (if you are not, R2, may I suggest you write a little post with something about yourself). I sometimes think these new personas are developed out of a genuine desire to understand, but then you see the same hardboiled attitude coming out, the same refusal to engage in a real dialogue, the same stuck in the mud, round and round the mulberry bush thinking. I have said this before, and I will say it again. If you want to stay with your Master, fine, that's your prerogative, but you should thank EPO and the forum members here for being able to help those premies who aren't happy in the cult. You guys, after all, are completely incapable of being any use to a premie when they reach their deepest darkest hour, all you can do is bully them. How about it, chaps, rather than messing around on here, creating an atmosphere where a new poster, at their time of greatest need, gets treated with suspicion, you leave us alone. Or do you really not care how much pain another human being is in? Sorry, Livia, started off talking to you, and then somehow shifted gear, love Lesley.

Subject: Re: To Livia from below From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 08:57:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, to start with the points about Jagdeo; I posed Kelly's post describing Jagdeo's lifestyle in order to illustrate that he has not, as I think Glen Whittaker once implied in a letter To Anth Ginn, (I can easily find the reference if you're interested) gone off to live in obscurity in a village in India. He is obviously still living in the style to which he was previously accustomed. Something doesn't doesn't seem quite right about this, in light of what he appears to have done, does it? Or don't you agree? As for the quote about the reliable source saying he was on tour in Africa and that a video had been seen of him in Africa, I said myself that it wouldn't stand up in a court of law as evidence. However, the lengths that Maharji's organisation have gone to cover this whole thing up would tend to be in keeping with the possibility that it may well turn out to be true, don't you think? I don't think you'd have to be a rocket scientist to draw this inference. For example, did you know that Jonathan Cainer, an English premie astrologer, moved his services from the Daily Mail to the Daily Express in order to prevent the Express from publishing a story about Jagdeo? If the evidence came out that Jagdeo had indeed been in Africa on tour and still had access to children, how would you feel then? And you haven't exactly said what you feel about him living his old life as a mahatma in Delhi, have you? What do you feel about it, incidentally? I have to go now, but will post later about the rest of your points. With regards, Livia

Subject: To Forum God From: OK To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:08:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: whoever you are, this is the real Salam writing. As you know I don't post here, let alone speak about Islam. that being the case I want to say that some idiot is using my name to post [see thread below on Islam]. I haven't read what is being said but I thought to tell you that this is being done on Sat-Chit forum too. Am not sue what the reasons are, but I do appreciate it if you can remove the thread, Salam@Rawatsucks

Subject: Also From: OK To: OK Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:17:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I scrolled down the threads and whoever this dickhead is, he is posting under my name all over the place. Last time I said anything was few weeks ago so you may want to delete anything you see unser my name. I have switched to another browser [Opera] as you notice, as some people know that I use it, this to let you know, otherwise I can e-mail you, Salam

Subject: spam attack! **** is back? From: gerry To: OK Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 21:01:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew these troll post weren't you Salam. Just some juvenile. I'll clean up the mess.

Subject: ps From: OK To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:07:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: note that whoever is doing it is using Win NT. Djouro has Win NT.

Subject: Journey Entry Fifth Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:35:49 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: In spring 1979 I was asked to go to Toronto to do the year-end audit, for free of course. This is hard to write about. (I'm recovering from surgery, but I feel I have to get it out.) I left a good job to the dismay of my boss, who wouldn't take me back later. There was more love in that small C.A. firm than in all of D.L.M., believe me. This set back my Chartered Accountant articling by years. I stayed at the ashram and was argued over from the start. The ashram had a restaurant and the accountant and chief cook argued over whether I had to do regular service in the restaurant as all other ashram residents do. Then Anne Johnson argues that I shouldn't be there. The good DLM accountant whose name escapes me argues that Gary Ockenden, president of DLM Canada, knows of and has approved my being there. I was supposed to go to the conference after the spring event in Denver. Anyway, I became unstable mentally and could not do the work. The Montreal books, which I was in charge of were off by two or three dollars, but this wasn't good enough. I was asked to find the imbalance. We're talking of $250,000 annual donations approximately. My assistant in Montreal, who I felt obliged to keep on as this was 'service' and how could I think to deprive someone of 'service', had the worst handwriting I'd ever seen, and I hadn't been stringent enough in getting him to balance his work. Now this was coming back to haunt me. I was not allowed to go to the conference and left with the shame and confusion of being told that another premie agreed to do the year-end audit for money - so my problems were to cost DLM money - I'm sure I was told this more than once. Why was I not offered money? Don't ask, because I don't know. In Denver I went to the local premie doctor, John or whatever his name was, and told him my problems. His prescription - 'Pray to Guru Maharaj Ji'. Back in Montreal, with no job and feeling devastated, I occupied myself pulling weeds in the ashram garden and other such things.I started meditating several hours at a time, and started seeing intense light. I must have heard voices too, because I jumped off the second floor balcony of my apartment, not once, but five times. The fifth time I balked, tried to stop myself in mid activity, and ended up breaking some bones and ending up in a hospital, mostly the psychiatric ward, for quite a while. Georges Legere, who had been my supervisor, never visited me. Only one premie, who I thoght strange, did, as well as one visit from an instructor trainee and the community coordinator, who gave me a headache while lecturing me that 'there is no such thing as inner agya'.

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Fifth Installment From: bill To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:20:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your Entries Steve, It really is too bad someone distracted you from your beautiful life and invited you into this rawat family nightmare. I read you and I think your a great guy Steve:)

Subject: Letter To Guru Maharaj Ji From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:58:24 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Sept. 13, 1983 Greetings Guru MaharajJi: I am writing to tell you of an extremely urgent matter which only you can be of assistance in. My brother Steven Quint has been a premie for a number of years. This letter concerns him. The problem is Guru Maharaj Ji is that he is extremely troubled and I fear for his life! Guru Maharaj Ji, he feels that you are testing him and punishing him for not being a strong enough devotee. Four years ago he believed that in a test of faith, You asked him to jump off a second floor balcony. He jumped 3 times, believing that he injured himself only on the third jump when he doubted his faith and grabbed on to the railing as he fell. He recovered from that but has always since felt that he failed You. He feels that You have a plan for him which he does not understand. Lately he has not been functioning properly, going into intense fits of rage and depressions. His behaviour was so erratic that he has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. He very firmly believes that being in the hospital will be of no help and he refuses to talk with any therapist. He believes that You are the only one who can help him. Guru Maharaj Ji, I do not believe that You would be testing and punishing one of Your devotees, but Steven firmly does and will not allow himself to get well until he sees otherwise. Guru Maharaj Ji, you are the only one who can help! I believe that he has spoken to initiators in the past but again feels that they do not understand him. He needsto hear from You. He will not allow anyone to reach him in his tormented state as he feels he is in Your hands. Guru Maharaj Ji, please help to save my brother's life. Please write to him. Thank you for understanding. Very Respectfully Yours Harriet Quint sister of: Steve Quint 5681 Mclynn Ave. Montreal Quebec H3X 2P9 CANADA (514) 737-0706 P.S. Steven is presently admitted at the Jewish General Hospital (514) 342-3111 D

Subject: Response Never Received From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:53:11 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: My sister was already an ex by 1979 and, as for me, I haven't practiced the four techniques since 1979, stopped going to programs for four years but resumed in the the mid 1980's, and became the most ardent attendee for quite a while, still expecting until fairly recently to get something out of the speeches. I only pray that, with another difficult time close at hand, I finally learn some lessons and find a way to move forward with my life. Your prayers are appreciated, regardless of who your god is or who you pray to. Steve

Subject: Of Course I Meant Response To The Letter From: Steve Quint To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:48:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Your responses are very much appreciated. Steve

Subject: Response Received From: Richard To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:26:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Steve, Thanks for having the tremendous courage to tell us about your very challenging life with M&K. Your sister's plea to GMJ on your behalf is incredibly touching. You are so fortunate to have such a loving family member who would try to communicate with M on your behalf. I would like to respectfully suggest that her reaction to your dire situation reveals much of her humanity and proves her to be the friend that GMJ never would be. She interceded for your health in a way that GMJ couldn't be bothered to. Her actions were admirable and motivated by love for you. Wonderful. I believe that the honesty and fearlessness you are now displaying is a response from your own inner authority to the challenges you face. In a way, the response to your own cry for help has been received in the form of courage. All the best to you. Richard

Subject: Re: Response Received From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 13:38:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, it must take a lot of courage to share, as Steve has done, the details of how much his involvement with the former 'Guru' Maharaji/Ji led him into areas that few of us have the ... courage? or is it stupidity? to go. To set himself up as the 'Lord of the Universe', God re-incarnate, the 'one who sent Jesus to this Earth' (though you won't find that quoted anywhere in DLM/EV's literature, though it was part of the belief-system that was touted to premies at the time) was a tactic that M took on at his own risk. Unfortunately the risks of testing that belief were taken on by the likes of Steve, who, rightly or wrongly, took his own faith in M to limits that many of us would once have admired as being an example of pure devotion. Unfortunately for Steve, who was led to believe that M was God incarnate, the testing resulted in a realisation that 'God incarnate' is a very dangerous claim for anyone to make. M apparently denies he ever made that claim. Which must make Steve's trauma and subsequent illness all the more difficult to deal with. I have a lot of respect for people who are brave enough to challenge their own belief systems, but when that belief-system ITSELF encourages people to put their own lives into jeopardy, as Steve has witnessed (and how many times had we premies been told the story of how a TRUE premie should be prepared to cut off their own head, if that was what the guru wanted), then surely SOME responsibility has to be 'laid at the feet' of the one making those claims. M, however, has done nothing but attempt to deny his involvement with the doctrines that were promoted in his name - the self-same doctrines that led people like Steve to injure himself, thinking that his 'master' was in fact able to prevent him from injury. But, to be fair, Steve has some responsibility in this too. 'Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God' being a quote which springs to mind. But M was NOT the Lord, his God. Yet, or maybe because of this, Steve saw fit to test him. The results of that test will remain with Steve probably for the rest of his life. Yet doesn't the one who led him to that result have a part to play in all this? To be fair, Steve's

Subject: Oh come on, Chris! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 18:02:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God you say some dumb things sometimes! Responsibility? Obviously, Steve was nuts then. Sheesh! The key thing here is that Maharaji had to know that a whole range of people were answering his siren song, including mentally unstable ones. His refusal to respond to Steve's sister's letter is perhaps as bad as anything I've ever heard about him. Ever. And that includes all the Jagdeo stuff. It's not so much that he had to write Steve back. Yes, as Steve's Lord and Master he had to do that. Of course he did. But he also simply had to get some local premies, maybe an instructor or two, someone, to try to intervene. Sounds like no one did. Appalling.

Subject: Re: Oh come on, Chris! From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:00:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dumb? you mean the bit where I said 'surely SOME responsibility has to be 'laid at the feet' of the one making those claims' perhaps the exasperation I intended to come across there didn't communicate itself to you, Jim. Like sarcasm, the vocal inflections don't always translate into print too well. Read it as an understatement, if that helps. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick, and you're saying that ALL of the responsibility for Steve's actions should be placed at the Maha's door? Now that WOULD be dumb.

Subject: Clarification From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 18:06:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To be clear, I'm assuming that the visits Steve did get weren't at the behest of Maharaji for, if they were, Steve would have been told as much. That would have been one of the big selling points -- 'Maharaji got your letter and wanted us to tell you ....' Instead, nothing.

Subject: Some Points Re Your Post From: Steve Quint To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 17:58:13 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Courage or stupidity? It may have been something else, like mental illness. Am I responsible for my bad luck or mental illness? Maybe. 'Steve saw fit to test him.' Where'd you get that? I think it's clear from my sister's letter and my story that I felt he was testing me. If not, let me make that clear. I felt a failure and needed 'a test to pass'. I though that if I jumped enough times, I'd land in London, England where m was speaking that night. I'd call it delusion based on the whole trip as I had experienced it. I had been made to feel special by krishnasukanand, and maybe that feeling of specialness contributed to the delusion that I could travel from Montreal to London by jumping off a balcony. Anyway, overall I appreciate your post. Steve

Subject: Re: Some Points Re Your Post From: cq To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:33:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the feedback, Steve. Whether it was you testing M's supposed powers, or whether you thought M was challenging you to test his own supposed powers - well, you're the guy who jumped, so I guess I'd better bow to your own first-hand experience of the whole sorry affair. You say Krishnasukhanand 'made you feel special'. Or was it the writings of Carlos Castenada that put the idea in your mind that you could relocate like that? Perhaps it was your OWN powers you were testing? Guess I'm trying too hard to imagine myself in your position, up there on the balcony. My own projections, I guess. Sorry.

Subject: Thanks again Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 19:29:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Am I responsible for my bad luck or mental illness? Maybe.'' My answer is NO! Bad luck happens. Bad things do happen to good people. We aren't in control of other people. If an evil person does something bad to you that's beyond your control. As for your mental illness - from what you have told me - I understand that it is serious and not some self-indulgence or weakness on your part. Many mental problems actually are caused by problems with the brain chemistry. You most definitely are not responsible for your illness. All the bad things that happened to you could have been avoided IF Rawat had not talked such utter shit about being the saviour and the Lord, greater than god. You would probably have received proper treatment. Your story makes me angry because in December 2000 something similar happened here in San Francisco. A young man of 21 who had a history of mental illness became an aspirant and believed that Rawat was the Master. Why? Because that's what the idiot Rawat told him in hours and hours of videos which they guy had to watch in order to receive K. Well, the young man despaired and began to feel that he was being strung along by Rawat because he needed help right away yet he had to wait and watch videos for nearly a year before he could be saved by the Master. The young man jumped to his death from an apartment block. Your problems and his would have been solved correctly IF Rawat had not claimed to be THE Master who could save you. It's time to put the blame at the clay feet of the one who caused these problems, the idiotic puffed-up pompous greedy irresponsible debauchee, Prempal Singh Rawat.

Subject: is doing a little more revising From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:45:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, it seems that the malibu maha may be in the process of changing his name yet again. It won't be long until aka Maharaji is completely gone and it'll just be the self-K offered by a cool dude by the name of Rawat. I figure about the year 2005 some maha cult member will appear on Forum 10 and deny even knowing the name Maharaji. 'I rec'd self-K directly from Prem Rawat in 1972', they'll claim and some will even believe it.

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: Mercedes To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 00:15:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It never ends...this guy is in such denial that he will change everything to avoid seeing the deceiver that he is.

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: bolly shri To: Mercedes Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:01:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shucks this constant unchanging knowledge sure takes a lot of keeping up with. changing his name changing his history what will I do with all those lovely pics of him cavorting in silk pants and acrown labelled Guru Maharaji I missed the official revision and book burning so I have a nice assortment of pics from his holy time as lord then he's ateacher then abusiness man what is this multiple incarnations in one lifetime too mysterious for my simple brain jai guys bolly shri

Subject: Re: is doing a little more revising From: bolly shri To: Mercedes Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:01:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shucks this constant unchanging knowledge sure takes a lot of keeping up with. changing his name changing his history what will I do with all those lovely pics of him cavorting in silk pants and acrown labelled Guru Maharaji I missed the official revision and book burning so I have a nice assortment of pics from his holy time as lord then he's ateacher then abusiness man what is this multiple incarnations in one lifetime too mysterious for my simple brain jai guys bolly shri

Subject: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:29:15 (EST) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Did anybody watch Diane Sawyer's interview of Rosie O'Donnell last night on ABC, and the story of the 500,000 kids who don't get adopted in this country? I didn't expect to watch it, but tuned in and ended up watching the whole two hours. I didn't know much about Rosie O'Donnell, and I've never seen her TV Show (although my secretary says she tapes it every day and always watches it and she says it's good), but I have to say I was impressed with her courage and dedication. And some of those kids who were interviewed really broke my heart. Almost made me want to be an adoptive parent. Also, just wanted to say, that I know a whole bunch of gay couples who are raising children and from what I can tell they are terrific families. I know San Francisco is particularly conducive and supportive for gay parenting and adoption, and it does seem to be happening quite a lot. I kind of get to be a vicarious parent at times, just hanging around some of those kids. :)

Subject: Re: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:14:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is so weird, Joe, because I just wrote Rosie a letter about this! We have a subscription to her magazine (long story, but suffice it to say I got sick of crying reading her articles in public places like the dentist's office.) The April issue just came today it had the story about the Florida laws in there. Rosie is politically very liberal and she is best friends with Madonna. She does a lot of work with children's organizations, sexual abuse centers, adoption centers, hospitals, etc. She is a real children's advocate. I've never written a letter to a celebrity before, but I wanted to tell her the story of my sister and her partner adopting my niece and give her support for getting the Florida laws changed. BTW, I always wondered if Rosie was gay, but never heard that she had officially 'come out' She did say that she was gay in the magazine article I read today. I was curious if this was the first time she had mentioned that or if she had come out publically before. Anyway, good for her.

Subject: Re: Rosie O'Donnell/Diane Sawyer (OT) From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:14:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From what I have read, Rosie O'Donnell was kind of in the 'glass closet,' in the sense that everyone around her knew, but she never said so publicly. As she mentioned in the interview, there was some criticism of her in the gay press from time to time, that she was hiding in the closet. I think she explained pretty well in the interview why she waited to go public, and also that the adoption issue was the thing that pushed her into doing it. It seems that her strong empathy for abused and neglected kids is because she had a very hard life as a kid herself, with her mother dying when she was young, her dad an alcoholic and she was neglected, etc.

Subject: Link to ACLU Website From: Joe To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:34:17 (EST) Email Address: Kevjo@mindspring.com Message: This is the link to the ACLU website about the family talked about in Diane Sawyer's piece last night on ABC. Anybody who wants to contact Jeb Bush in Florida can maybe try to get him to let that family stay together. You can click on the section "from Rosie" to hear why Rosie decided to "come out" on ABC last night. Let Him Stay www.lethimstay.com/action.html

Subject: Link to Rosie O'Donnell Interview From: Joe To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:37:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the link to the ABC site with a summary of the Rosie O'Donnell interview. Rosie Interview abcnews.go.com/Sections/Primetime/

Subject: Re: Link to Rosie O'Donnell Interview From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:28:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it is important that she came out, because she has been revered (sp?)as one of the best 'hands on' celebrity moms ever since she became one. She is going to help dispel some myths that gay people can't be good parents. My sister and her partner are terrific parents! All children should be as lucky as my niece. Thanks for the link, Joe.

Subject: Thanks/Anita Bryant the Tyrant From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:35:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Jennifer. There is a link on the ACLU website that you, your sister, and her partner can send emails to the Florida governor and others, to get them to help get the Florida law against gay adoptions changed. BTW -- the reason Florida is one of the very few states that bans gay adoptions arises right out of the Anita Bryant campaign in the late 70s when there was an anti-gay frenzy in Florida and the law was passed in 1977.

Subject: She is one of many tyrants From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 19:53:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, I went to the ACLU website you provided and forwarded it to my sister. Then I used their form to send Jeb and company a copy of my letter to Rosie. My sister and her partner and every member of my family are writing letters tonight. I'm sure all of my sister's friends will be asked to write, as she's very persuasive :) The laws on same sex adoption in the county my sister lives in can be loosely interpreted by a judge. Some of the judges there are strictly opposed and some are for it. She was lucky enough that her case got handed to a judge who is very liberal and open minded--and it was luck of the draw. It could have easily gone the other way. An aside: One cool thing about my sister's adoption was that a girl from my dormitory hall in college was the attorney who handled her case. She handles a lot of same sex adoptions around here. We recognized one another in the judges chambers--we hadn't seen one another in years! I was glad to see her doing such worthwhile work. Remember, we are in the dark ages here in GA. We don't have Anita Bryant, but we have lots of other tyrants, unfortunately. Most counties do not allow same sex adoptions. None allow same sex marriages and oral and anal sex are also illegal. Only the missionary position for married couples in the privacy of their bedroom. Yeah, right...

Subject: Re: She is one of many tyrants From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 12:55:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Jennifer, That's great you have gotten that many people to comment. I do believe it has an effect, and I think the pressure on Florida, and Jeb Bush, is only going to grow. And if Florida ever tries to take that kid out of that family, the publicity will be incredible. Can't you just see the headlines and the pictures? So, the consciousness raising is the first important thing, and then things change, in my opinion. That's the way it happened in other states. I think the difference is that Florida, because of the Anita Bryant sordid history, is one of only three states that actually ban gay adoptions. True, what you said about it being up to judges and judges being in various stages of enlightment. But first you have to lift the ban, then people apply to adopt and can sue if they are denied. It's a slow process, but that's how things work. What I am seeing happening with some gay couples I know is they are California residents adopting children in other states. One current method is to 'advertise' around the country that the couple is available to be adoptive parents. They even put out little brochures. Then, a woman who is pregnant and wants to give her child up for adoption, can 'choose' the couple as the adoptive parents, and a surprising number choose same-sex parents. An attorney in my firm and his partner, adopted a little girl from a mother in North Carolina. It's all done through an agency, etc., for vaious reasons. Bruce and Jeff wanted to do a 'joint adoption' where both adopt the child simultaneously, and although North Carolina doesn't forbid gay adoption, it does not recognize joint adoption and California does. So about a month before the delivery, the mother came to California and had the child here, and the adoption was done in California where joint adoptions are allowed. It all seemed to work very well, and Anna is now five years old, and they are in the process of adopting another child from a couple from Oregon, which I think is due around July. Obviously, there are so many gay adoptions here, that the judges are much more saavy, and good laws have been passed to prohibit discrimination. But it is a slow, process, even here. BTW -- there have been studies done on gay parenting, and they have found that there is no difference in any of the outcomes than with straight parents, which everyone thought anyway, which is why the American Pediatric Society (or Assn?) recently approved of gay adoption, to the deep chagrin of the Family Research Council and the other homophobe groups. And, oh yes, sodomy laws. And the famous Bowers v. Hardwick case from Georgia, now 15 years ago. After seeing the opinion in Roemer v. Evans in Colorado, I'm certain that case would have gone the other way if it was decided after 1992. After Justice Powell retired, he said his upholding of Georgia in that case was one of his biggest regrets, and the decision was 5-4 in 1986, while Roemer went 6-3 the other way in 1992. Society does change, and the courts reflect it. Yes, the dark ages still exist, but the laws have either been repealled or struck down by the courts in most states and they aren't enforced anyway. The same will eventually happen in Georgia, as I think all the remaining laws are in the process of being challenged in the courts.

Subject: Good news From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 15:37:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That post was certainly full of good news all around. Thanks for sharing it. One thing that makes me mad about the case in Florida is the message it is sending appears to be: 'If kids are defective and no one wants them, gay people can have them. If they are ok, then we won't place them there or we will take them away.' How whacked. You are right--people will certainly raise hell about it if they take that little boy out. I'm just worried that it won't matter. People have raised hell in the past when courts have taken various children out of their adoptive homes and put them back with their (obviously inferior) biological parents. What is best for the children is not always what the court considers, unfortunately. Maybe that is something that will slowly change, too. I'm so glad to hear that the America Pediatrics Association recently approved of gay adoption. Can't say I'm at all surprised by the results of that study that there is no difference in outcomes between the two groups. Could have told you that without a study. I agree that it's a slow process. That is the most frustrating part to me.

Subject: Re: Good news From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 16:12:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can tell you feel strongly about this because people close to you have encountered these issues, and that makes a big difference. It just makes so much difference when you see the actual parents and children, and I know that's true for me too. Yeah, it is infuriating. The state of Florida should be thanking that couple for taking kids nobody wanted and perhaps saving their lives. But, when the one child went back to being HIV-, suddently he was 'adoptable,' but not by a gay person, although the gay couple was good enough while the kid was still infected. So much hypocrisy. Amazing. And this whole idea that gay couples should have to go through some kind of special scrutiny or study in order to be treated like anybody else seeking to adopt is such nonsense. The assumption has to be that anybody has the possibility of being a good parent, and everyone should be seen and evaluated individually, and not eliminated because of some irrational prejudice. Actually, I think the studies show that children raised by gays have no different outcomes from those raised by straights, except, that children of gay people are more open to experimenting with a same sex relationship. I guess that makes sense, given they actually have a same-sex relationship role model in their lives, unlike most everyone else, but that might be what the homophobes are most worried about. They basically want everyone to go back into the closet anyway, and the idea that kids might be less that scared shitless about possibily being attracted to the same sex is not to their liking. So, they bring out bogus and completely discreted studies to 'prove' that gays make bad parents. What I thought was amazing was that Christian flat-earther Diane Sawyer interviewed who said that children might be 'traumatized' if they had gay parents. Hello? I remember thinking of that woman in Texas whot drowned her five kids. Those kids are dead, but at least they weren't 'traumatized' by having gay parents. Geez. I know what you mean about raising hell maybe not working, but I think the difference is the national attention this has gotten. I think the vast majority of people are basically fair-minded, and would react strongly to seeing that poor kid ripped out of his home and the family he loves. That's just so much more powerful than talking about 'adoption' and gay rights in the asbstract. If Jeb Bush was smart, he would get the message to the Florida Department that handles adoptions and tell them to PLEASE put that kid's adoption papers at the bottom of the pile, and just never get to them. The last thing he would need would be a confrontation on this that would be plastered all over the media. But I've got to believe that some Christian bigot will apply to adopt that kid. I wouldn't be a bit surprised. So, J.Bush will be left with the Christian bigots on one side, and Rosie O'Donnell, the media, and most everyone else on the other. Not a great place for him to be.

Subject: Re: Good news From: Jennifer To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 10:34:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And this whole idea that gay couples should have to go through some kind of special scrutiny or study in order to be treated like anybody else seeking to adopt is such nonsense. The assumption has to be that anybody has the possibility of being a good parent, and everyone should be seen and evaluated individually, and not eliminated because of some irrational prejudice. That's what I was trying to say to Scott, but you've done a better job here.

Subject: Scott, darlin' you aren't evil From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:04:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but you do have a thing about that word, don't you? snicker I didn't mean to insinuate that you are against gay adoptions (I assume this is what you mean by evil?) just because you were suggesting a strategic approach. I know exactly what you are saying. Someone has been keeping track of gay adoptions--Joe said there's a study out on it. I'm sure that some groups that support gay adoptions are keeping records for the purpose you have mentioned as well. My only point is that it's UNFORTUNATE that someone would even have to do any of this in the first place. Remember, I am an idealist ;)

Subject: Jennifer, you did just as well..... From: Joe To: Jennifer Date Posted: Tues, Mar 19, 2002 at 15:11:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If not better, IMO.

Subject: Re: She is one of many tyrants From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 20:01:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I forgot to mention that I got all of my friends in GA to write to Fla. and they agreed to do so as well. Somehow I don't see Jeb Bush giving in on this issue, but one can't give up hope, right?

Subject: My soapbox From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:30:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The determination ought to be made on that basis too, case by case. Good for everyone. I agree. Case by case is the only way. Just as it's always been done. One sexually exploitive gay couple and the shit will hit the fan. Reality. If you're in favor of gay adoption you want a serious documented backlog of enormously successful cases before that ever happens, because it eventually will, humans being what they are. This is too big brother for my taste. A bit like saying when women first went to work, people had to document hundreds of them as being good workers in case one of them was bad and had to be fired...see my point? Really, why should the process for gay parents adopting be any more strenuous than it is for straight people who want to adopt? All prospective parents should be screened in the same way and treated the same way. Just think of the hundreds and thousands of LOUSY and/or sexually exploitive heterosexual parents out there. Surely there have been some straight people out there who have adopted and then abused or neglected children. So why doesn't the 'shit hit the fan' when a heterosexual couple who adopts sexually exploits their kids? Of course, no one wants to place any adoptive child in a less than ideal environment, but what is ideal? Being with a parent who loves you and can provide for you is ideal. Rosie's child may not have a dad, but I know plenty of kids in homes with two parents who have absentee dads. A dad in name only. Then there are divorced parents without dads, children whose dads die. Other kids who have never met their dads. For each case I've mentioned, you can remove the moms and the same applies. I think this is a non-issue. My niece has two moms. My husband and her three other Uncles and two grandfathers give her plenty of opportunities for male bonding. An adoption encompasses an entire family, not just the nucleus. What is 'missing' in one place can often be found elsewhere. And whose to say not having a mom or not having a Dad means a child is missing out on something. I think we have to expand our vision to remember that love and security are what a child needs--not some pre-exisiting definition of 'mom and dad' that may be completely void of love and security. The male couple who wants to keep their son in Florida won a parenting award for being outstanding foster parents. One of the guys quit his job to be Mr. Mom to his children, all of whom have AIDS or HIV. Those guys had to suction out one of their kid's noses every hour or so while it was a baby or it would die. They have incredible dedication and I'm sure they have been under a microscope. Those guys are better parents than most people I know. Those children are lucky, even with no mom. My opinion is that people who care for children make excellent parents and that their sexual orientation does not affect that (so long as they aren't pedophiles.) It's pretty simple in my mind.

Subject: Re: My soapbox From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:47:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer: I guess you have to get it off your chest. Don't get too attached to your own rhetoric though. This is too big brother for my taste. A bit like saying when women first went to work, people had to document hundreds of them as being good workers in case one of them was bad and had to be fired...see my point? Except that there's nothing as explosive as the sexual abuse of children. Anyway, what I'm talking about is a political strategy... facilitated by the prudence of determination on a case by case basis. Just use it, meaningfully and intentionally. Really, why should the process for gay parents adopting be any more strenuous than it is for straight people who want to adopt? All prospective parents should be screened in the same way and treated the same way. Be careful about idealizing attitudes here. We're talking about real people with real foibles, not ideal people with perfectly correct spontaneous reactions. If you want an ideal world, go somewhere and start from scratch. (Not that that would work either.) Of course, no one wants to place any adoptive child in a less than ideal environment, but what is ideal? Being with a parent who loves you and can provide for you is ideal. Rosie's child may not have a dad, but I know plenty of kids in homes with two parents who have absentee dads. A dad in name only. Then there are divorced parents without dads, children whose dads die. Other kids who have never met their dads. For each case I've mentioned, you can remove the moms and the same applies. I think this is a non-issue. I beg to differ. It's an enormous issue. There isn't much data on single sex couples raising children, but there's a lot of data on single parent households. Most of those are absent fathers, of course. Impact on behavioral problems is enormous, across the board. Impact on academic achievement is mixed, but much stronger for white and Hispanic families than for black. I'm not sure how much of this is due to single-parent phenomenon, or absent gender though. I think Rosie's attitude about this is realistic. My niece has two moms. My husband and her three other Uncles and two grandfathers give her plenty of opportunities for male bonding. An adoption encompasses an entire family, not just the nucleus. Boy I sure don't know about that. Are you saying the extended family is coming back? It still looks pretty marginal to me, in the aggregate. What is 'missing' in one place can often be found elsewhere. Thank God! So, what's wrong with doing something constructive and deliberate about that, instead of just presuming it'll happen on it's own? (Not that I have any proposals. I have barely begun to think about it. Just that we should be open, and creative.) They have incredible dedication and I'm sure they have been under a microscope. Those guys are better parents than most people I know. Those children are lucky, even with no mom. I think even the opponents acknowledge that, or am I wrong? My opinion is that people who care for children make excellent parents and that their sexual orientation does not affect that (so long as they aren't pedophiles.) It's pretty simple in my mind. Is there no room for pragmatism then? You're willing to make that argument after a big sex scandal focusses national attention, and expect to advance your cause? You have a lot more faith in 'talk' and idealism than I. If you asked Rosie I'll bet you'd find she's more circumspect. I think the phrase she uses is: 'Enough, already!' It embodies pragmatism. Man, I'm really glad she's in this. Hope it doesn't wear her out. --Scott

Subject: 'Enough already' yourself From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:29:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scott, I don't just listen to my own rhetoric, I live it, pal. :) Most of the people who think what I just said is rhetoric aren't able to see the possibilites. I'm proud that I can and if that makes me an idealist, so be it. I'd have to see the numbers and the research on the single parent family being MORE detrimental to a child than being raised by two parents when one or both of the parents isn't worth a damn. (Doubt they have THOSE numbers, unfortunately!) Do you get my point? Of course two is better then one when the two are good--simple math. Personally, I think it's silly for Rosie to apologize to her son when he gets to hang out at Madonna's mansion and fly all over the world. She is giving him a wealth of experiences that most other kids--even kids with Dad's--can't even begin to imagine. Just being pragmatic. Again, I think who will make a good parent a very individual, case by case thing. My Uncle raised my cousin as a single parent and did a wonderful job. She turned out well adjusted and I don't think she would say she was damaged. On the other hand, I know some little shits who live down the street who wouldn't know a moral value if it hit them over the head. Surprise! They all have Mommies and Daddies. In some places and some families, Scott, the extended family never went out of style. :) I don't think it's coming back on the grand scale, no. As you said, it's case by case. 'Enough already?' Ha! ha! Fine, we won't talk about it anymore, but don't say I didn't warn you. My last post title even said the post was going to be a soapbox.

Subject: Re: 'Enough already' yourself From: Scott T. To: Jennifer Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 00:20:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jennifer: I'd have to see the numbers and the research on the single parent family being MORE detrimental to a child than being raised by two parents when one or both of the parents isn't worth a damn. (Doubt they have THOSE numbers, unfortunately!) Do you get my point? Of course two is better then one when the two are good--simple math. Let's put it this way, if you have only one parent then your chances are only half as good that you'll have at least one good parent than if you have two. Or looking at it the other way: two parents rather than one increases the odds of having at least one good parent by 100%. The 'pool' is twice as big, so to speak. It's not the number of bad parents you have (excluding incest and stuff like that) that's the problem. It's the lack of good parents. But, as you say, a lot depends on child rearing practices... which can easily make up for something like an absent parent. But that *does* require that we don't just take child rearing skills for granted. Did they actually used to put soap in soapboxes? --Scott

Subject: I believe they did put soap there--ot From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 09:08:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The suffragettes insisted on having a female presence wherever men were. Women passed out literature on streets and spoke on soapboxes. They purposely dressed femininely to combat stereotypes of dowdy, strong-minded women. Their dress was also their armor – used to keep the privilege of social distance that good manners and wide brimmed hats required.' As far as I know soap was packed in soapboxes and shipped to merchantiles. Thank you for changing the subject.

Subject: And one more thing From: Jennifer To: Jennifer Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:41:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know you were saying that cases should be documented to protect gay adoptive parents. I'm just not sure they feel that they need to be protected. I didn't make that clear in the first post. When people want to adopt, they don't care about having a study to back them up. They just want a child to care for. Also, I do believe from talking to gay parents that the main concern they have to deal with is the potential that their children will become targets of hate-mongers. I'm not talking about just teasing (which can be cruel, but kids tease about all kinds of things.) Still the folks I've talk to feel that as people become better educated and as more gay people become parents, this will more of a thing of the past.

Subject: My final word--I hope From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 19:45:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, I just think the whole idea that anyone would HAVE to go through that much trouble with sociology departments and bell curves and statistics in order to adopt is ridiculous. Especially because anyone with any sense knows each adoption case is so different. Each couple is different. Relying upon statistics for OTHER couples makes absolutely NO sense. Jennifer

Subject: Re: My final word--I hope From: Jennifer To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:52:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think you understand me either. Fine, lets do.

Subject: Anyone heard that fable From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:02:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: saying that in fact no plane crashed on the Pentagon, and that this is all made up to allow the USA to attack the 'bad guys', that Bin Laden has been manipulated by the CIA, that he was actually treated in a Pakistanese clinic during the events etc. Some people actually believe this !!

Subject: Re: Anyone heard that fable From: Jennifer To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:52:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine was sitting at his office in the Pentagon when the plane crashed 30 feet away, killing his two best friends and many co-workers. I'll inform him that he was dillusional and must have imagined the whole thing. (sarcasm) Where did you hear that?

Subject: They say: NO PLANE on the Penatgon From: Jean-Michel To: Jennifer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 13:51:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm wondering why and how they can say this. They say no plane parts were found on the spot, no bodies, no pictures of the plane flying to the place, nothing. They say it was made up by the CIA etc the usual plot theory. What they don't say is where the plane (and its passengers) is gone ! When you take a closer look at the whole thing, you discover that some of the theory's makers guys are well-known antiamericans.

Subject: Re: They say: NO PLANE on the Penatgon From: bill To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 01:24:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kind of reminding me of some of the revisionist postings of premies.

Subject: They say: NO CROWN, NO.... From: EV Spin Doctor To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 09:55:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MALA, NO TOE KISSING,NO WORHIPPING AS GOD, NEVER BEEN 'THE PERFECT MASTER', NEVER DECLARED HE WOULD RULE THE WORLD, NO KRISHNA COSTUME WITH FLUTE THAT HE CAN'T PLAY,NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS THE MOST POWERFUL INCARNATION OF GOD TO EVER WALK THE PLANET,NEVER KNEW ABOUT JAGDEO'S CRIMES (EVEN THOUGH EV LAWYERS 'BRIEFED' HIM ON IT YEARS AGO),NEVER TOOK IN VAST UNREPORTED SUMS OF MONEY THROUGH DARSHAN LINES (MAINLY BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAPPENED),NEVER HAS HAD A DRINKING PROBLEM,NEVER TOOK ADVANTAGE OF HIS FEMALE FOLLOWERS SEXUALLY,NEVER HAD AN X-RATING SYSTEM,NEVER GOT RICH OFF THE PREMIES AND THEIR SLAVE LABOR,NEVER HAD A MISTRESS,NEVER LIED,NEVER SAID HE WAS GOD..... NO, you see the maharaja of malibu never said any of these things....these are all scurrilous lies made up by angry 'jilted lovers' who are lost, confused and so unhappy with their lives that they have to blame a poor innocent young man from India who only talks about happiness and love.... What a world this has become! Poor little prem rawat is such a victim... What will people stoop to these days! If it's not making up those lies about the Pentagon being hit by a plane (when we all know it was faked, since no plane parts were found), then these terrible people look for fine innocent people like the maharaj of malibu to pick on and victimize for their own perverted, distorted reasons... What's next? Will they try to say that he thought he was god or something?

Subject: THIS IS NOT THE REAL SALAM From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:20:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like that turd ****

Subject: Here is Sir Dave's post From: JHB To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 17:36:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the post that started this thread that disappeared with the trash. John, --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Subject: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 22:43:38 (EST) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: I have a friend (I shall call him Andrew although that's not his real name) who is a wavering premie who wants to become an ex but is living in fear because of some of the things Maharaji has said. He really is afraid. Unfortunately he's not on the internet and would only have occasional access via a library computer. One of the heavy things that Maharat said that is troubling Andrew is the story about the boat where all the people on it drowned or were eaten by sharks after jumping in for a swim and forgetting to put down a ladder. This has put the fear of God into him. There are many other things that Maharat has said over the years which trouble Andrew and he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil. Unfortunaltely he lives a long way from me although I do talk to him regularly on the phone. He lives in the UK. Does anyone have any ideas on how to help Andrew? I have already filled him in on a lot of the stuff about Maharat that we all know which most premies still don't know. If anyone wants to write a message to Andrew here, or to my email (addressed above) then please do. I will then print out any messages to him and post them off to him. Thanks.

Subject: And of course this proves it isn't a cult, right? From: hamzen To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really I sometimes think that the trolls do more exiting work than anyone else here, in terms of the forum, not epo. Not only are they ugly, and suffused with so little love and compassion, but they also have no shame in demonstrating explicitly how riddled they are with cult thinking. One could argue that their hate filled expletives are truly 'perfick'. If you say it often enough, I am not in a cult, you might believe it, but it makes it perfectly plain to everyone else just how cult filled you are. Indeed, by their fruits you shall know them.

Subject: What happened to Dave's post? From: JHB To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 01:58:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was Sir Dave's thread about his worried friend, Andrew. Spam is one thing but hacking people's posts is a little worrying. Unless it's just Hotboards mixing up message ids again. John.

Subject: Re: What happened to Dave's post? From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 03:50:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just noticed. My guess is that one of the night-shift forum janitors ;) tried to clean up the mess and Hotboards wiped out an adjacent post. It happened to me once.

Subject: Re: What happened to Dave's post? From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 10:45:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't see Dave's post. I hope I didn't accidentally delete it when cleaning up ****'s spam.

Subject: Shit! Does anyone have a copy of Dave's post? From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 13:27:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must have deleted it. Damn, it must have been a good one seeing the responses to it. The trolls got lucky on this one. Sorry Dave and everyone.

Subject: Message for Andrew From: Kelly To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 13:08:07 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Dear Andrew, The question that plagues you and many others, including myself as we awake from the cult thinking…is….What if I’m wrong? …What if I’m in my head?…What if I have allowed the “doubt maker” to take control? …What if I have allowed my mind to take authority over my heart? What if he is THE ONE after all? The truth is, we’ve fallen prey to the “Master’s” own conditioning. Let’s just stop and look at those questions for a moment, and consider where they came from…..For a start, this whole idea of the ONE ? Where did that idea come from? For many of us on this forum, the Christian tradition has fed us the concept of oneness, the second coming…the Messiah! And Captain Rawat has perpetuated this myth that there is always ONE and only one, Satguru, Perfect Master etc. But what foundation in reality does this idea have? I sincerely believed that M was that Messiah. Why? Because he (Prem Rawat) said he was!!!. Not in so many words, just like he never actually said “ I am God” but in so many other insidious ways….There has never been a time etc…..I am not the first to talk about this etc….This is the same Knowledge that Jesus, Buddha etc etc…..This is the best thing that is happening on this planet etc etc, I deliberately keep to recent quotes, because it is easy to discount his youthful references to his own divinity, but the fact is we swallowed it…hook, line and sinker…well I did anyway! And it is hard to relinquish this beautiful myth for the cold hard truth of…NO MASTER…I’m on my own.? Where does this leave me? I remember so well those shaky days when I started to realise that my doubts and misgivings about M and EV were actually my own inner voice…suppressed for so long. I remember the fear and apprehension as I first acknowledged that I’d been had!! Maybe not deliberately, I still believe that M is the most deluded of us all Personally, I’m with Bunny on this (see below), I think we are all gods, we are all divine, and I know for sure that we are all gurus. We can all learn from each other and we all have a lot to give. It is great to be free again, and to see the world through my own eyes untainted by cult-vision. And, most importantly, taking personal responsibility for my actions, no longer seeing myself as part of some separatist movement but as part of the human race, just one among many…. a real human being…..NOT a premie!!! I wish you all the best, and if you’d like to e-mail me, please do Love Kelly (Karen)

Subject: Love, Fear and The Lord of The Universe From: Nottm Bunny To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:56:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dave, My heart goes out to your friend and to the many still trapped in the snare of the cult. Were it not for the information given here and the support of friends here and off the forum many more of us, myself included, could still be in that snare. And you are right: the power of the snare is fear. There is an old adage; There is only love or fear. We were drawn to M out of a great need for love, in the promise of the ultimate unconditional love, that of the creator. Yet there was nothing unconditional about M’s offer to us: even his ‘gift’ still belonged to him and the use of it came with the most costly conditions. Many paid for it with careers, wealth and families: all sacrificed on the altar to the glory and enhancement of his career, wealth and family. We all paid with our love and our self worth. There have been times that I felt a great deal of support and help from the security of K and M. I have many happy memories of times I spent with him and for a time I lived on those memories. Despite the cracks appearing over an extensive period, I hung on in there until three to four years ago. I went to more recent events, firstly to check my decision, later as an observer. Leaving that ‘security’ was traumatic, scary and sometimes very lonely. I remember Maharaji saying ‘Knowledge is the only thing happening’. Well, that is another great untruth; there is a great life outside Knowledge and as I have discovered, to steal another quote, ‘it only gets better’! Since exiting, I have discovered the following: There are no rotting vegetables: only the fear of rotting vegetables can hurt you. There are no sharks lurking outside Knowledge: only the fear of those imaginary sharks can hurt you. Come on in, the water’s lovely! And what of the last big fear – what if Maharaji is the one, the Lord of the Universe after all and all of this is a big test? Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. Since leaving the cult, I am happier, healthier and really enjoying the freedom to explore and develop my passion for life and life’s riches . I am able to be true to myself and enjoy being myself in a way I was unable to do for the previous twenty seven years. Are there known exes near your friend that may be able to give sympathetic support? To be alone processing this is particularly difficult. Exiting can be a very scary and bumpy ride – especially without the reality checks. I found it a great comfort and source of strength to discover others who were questioning things. Talking it through with the appropriate people really helps. Warm regards to both of you, Bunny PS If he’s in my area and wants to talk and/or meet, then do email me. You have my email.

Subject: Fear and Loathing From: Pullaver To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 11:59:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fear: See Fear and Loathing in Premieville over at EPO.

Subject: Yes, yes, YES From: hamzen To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:57:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. That just about says it all. Even all the positive changes we went through as premies, projection onto gm and grace etc, when really it was about OUR choices, OUR acceptance, OUR experience, and loads of them were just part of growing up which any person not riddled with cult thinking knows straight off.

Subject: No, no, NO From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 23:42:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I had a realisation, as we used to say: Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe – I am. By becoming the Lord of your Universe you have the possibility to come into your own power and your own ‘divinity’ for the first time. That just about says it all. Even all the positive changes we went through as premies, projection onto gm and grace etc, when really it was about OUR choices, OUR acceptance, OUR experience, and loads of them were just part of growing up which any person not riddled with cult thinking knows straight off. --- At first, when the little boy realized what his mommy and daddy were saying, that there really was no Santa Claus, he ran into his room, shut the door, jumped on his bed, buried his face in his pillow and started to cry. 'Should we go see if he's alright?' Mommy asked Daddy. 'Maybe this was a bad idea. Maybe we should have waited until next year.' 'Oh, he's alright,' Daddy answered. 'Just give him a little time. You'll see.' An hour later, when dinner was ready, the little boy came downstairs when called and started setting the table. Far from crying or seeming sad at all, he was smiling and even laughing to himself about something. 'Well, I'm glad to see you so happy' Mommy asked, not even trying to hide her surprise. 'Don't worry, Mommy, I realized that I'm really Santa Claus myself. In fact we all are!' 'Oh God', Mommy thought, as she smiled wanly and returned to the kitchen to get the roast, my own kid is starting to play these idiotic word games. I just hope he grows out of it.' :)

Subject: Wheres the poetry in your sole, eh? From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 07:49:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bunny's post says it all really, love yer to death but rrreally Jim, a little imagination for that poor buggers state of mind wouldn't go amiss. But also any time anyone talks about god now, I assume they are talking about unaccessed parts of themselves, and hey presto, no more grief. I really do believe people do this projecting because they truly are unable to accept themselves in their entirety. I watched a series on the new christianity teachings of the alpha variety recently and used that interpretation of god all the way through and found it fascinating, especially for someone who could never relate to god as I never have.

Subject: Jim, you missed my point From: Nottingham Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 04:59:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Your analogy is not appropriate. Of course there is no real Santa Claus outside the imagination. There is however a universe. You are, I suspect, the centre of your universe and, I hope, the master (Lord) of it. The problems come when you give that power away and make someone else the centre, as we all did. Dave said in his post: ‘he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharaji is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil.’ Can you remember twenty years ago, as you left the cult, struggling with the fear that perhaps ‘Maharaji is the One’ as ‘Andrew’ is doing? Perhaps this was not such an issue for you. However, for many of us, that lurking fear was the last great obstacle and for many wavering premies it still is. In my experience, if I wish to influence and/or support someone, communication is most effective if it’s empathetic and in a language that is understood. This is quite different to reinforcing dysfunctional concepts. The prime aim of my post was to communicate with someone who is teetering on the edge, who is still affected by the cult belief systems and certainly not in their power. The refrain (not the words) to the old devotional song ‘The Lord of The Universe’ is still played at major events for Gods sake! This stuff is embedded in the consciousness of the old premies and is reinforced in an insidious way despite the revisionism. Bunny, Lord of The Universe PS I might not be able to log on for a few days because I have some events to do up North.

Subject: Living with your fears From: Jean-Michel To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:30:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I won't say I've dealt with my fears (I've had them for months, before they started to decrease gradually) rationally. I'd say you have to use your brain to reflect upon your involvement, and accept the challenges. Read what the critics said, meet and talk with other exes, involve yourself in the other things you've always liked, try to reconenct with what you've abandonned because of your involvement, read a lot if you like it. Make new friends if you like and if you can, entertain yourself, take some good vacation ... See a therapist (no new age therapy though), most helpful and excellent investment. Write your 'journey' with m & k .....

Subject: Re: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: Mike Finch To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 09:27:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him.. Yep, my fear too. I dealt with it as follows: Am I advancing in the spritual path, enlightened, happy, peaceful, blissful (take your pick) after X years of following Maharaji faithfully and practising the Knowledge most every day ? If the answer is Yes, most of the time, then stay. If the answer is No, most of the time, then one of two things are true: 1) Maharaji is The One, but either cannot or will not take that extra step to propel me into true happiness, enlightenment, bliss (take your pick again), even if it is my own fault for not taking that extra step, so I should leave. 2) Maharaji is not The One, so I should leave. QED, as we mathematicians say. -- Mike

Subject: Fear cannot be created or destroyed From: Concerned brother To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 08:39:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, Please tell your friend not to worry. The story M was telling, I remember that. He was talking about these people who were not respectful of their own lives, to the point that they became so intoxicated (no doubt aided by some fine wine) that they jumped into the sea off their luxury yacht completely unaware that they had not ensured there was a way to reboard the boat. The story was merely another example of how we throw away our safety so easily. It has no spiritual subtexts or connotations. Your friend must realise that he can walk away any time he wants and there will be no real fallout but his freedom, from something he wanted to be free from. Fear cannot be created, only triggered. He will have to find a suitable way to avoid tapping into his own private well of the stuff. It won't ever dry up, but he can be enjoying his time somewhere other than at the well head!

Subject: Bollocks, brother From: cq To: Concerned brother Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:39:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you say 'The story was merely another example of how we throw away our safety so easily' Safety??? You equate being stuck in the Maha's web with safety? Shurely shome mishtake?

Subject: Re: Bollocks, brother From: cb To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 21:56:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I equate being stuck in the ocean pissed off my face and unable to get back on the boat I jumped off, with safety. Lack of it. Maha's web? You see faces in clouds too?

Subject: tell it the spider who's web your stuck in (nt) From: cq To: cb Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:46:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: tell it the spider who's web your stuck in (nt)

Subject: remind him of the fable of Peter From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:14:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: - who, the story goes, denied his master three times, but went on to be rock his church was founded on.

Subject: Fear 101 From: John Macgregor To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 05:44:50 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: '...he is also plagued by fears that if the Maharat is The One then he will be in big trouble if he renounced and denounced him. Andrew is very confused and is in turmoil.' Can relate to this very well. I experienced several weeks of heavy duty fear when I did my posts late last year. I now have regular contact with exiters - some friends, others unknown to me previously - and fear is a huge factor, common to all. The solution for me was: 1. never delay in attending EPO - i.e. read it lots every day, and learn the facts behind the myths 2. wait: wait for the nervous system to catch up with the intellect. This took me maybe 2-3 months, and was torture. Other recent exes and I have compared the symptoms we had during this period. I posted the symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder here a month or 2 ago: we had 90%+ of them. 3. Always have faith in Jim. That's a joke, but has a roundabout truth inasmuch as keeping your sense of humour is very important. Cults do have their funny side, especially when you think of all the emotional and physical drek. For me, what also worked was jumping as soon as I humanly could:getting out and being honest about it had a tremendously liberating effect - tho there was a week or so of serious emotional shock before the nice feelings set it. The main thing I noticed - and also the most surprising thing - is that my INTERNAL EXPERIENCE is better without Maharaji and Knowledge. When that becomes real, you see that there never was a reason to stay in the cult for so long. Anyway, I know several 'Andrews' at present: some have burst out of their shells and left; others are fire-walking in that hellish 'swing' zone - can't jump one way or the other; others again have activated the ostrich reflex and gone into denial, i.e. choosing to remain as premies on the strength of one irrational premiss or another. I have hopes that some in the second 2 categories will come back thru the looking glass at some stage. I advise those in the hell-realm - swinging from one state to another - that they will go mad if they keep that up, and would be better off in the cult if they must...(but ideally out of it). After a year of hardline atheism, I'm exploring a little spirituality again lately, which I'm seriously enjoying. Tho of course if anyone mentions the words 'guru' or 'master' to me for the next 30 years approximately, their physical wellbeing could not be guaranteed. The NSW north coast quartely ex-premies' dinner will be held at my place tomorrow night (Sat). I've invited 15, but in case I've forgotten you or you've exited without my knowing (there's a bit of an exodus happening, and one doesn't always hear right away who's left), contact me (email above) or just show up. Best to all, John

Subject: and your ex-premie friends From: To John To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:24:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All normal feelings... Post Cult Trauma www.refocus.org/postcult.html

Subject: Re: The terrible fear that Maharaji creates From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please send this to ''Andrew.'' Dear fellow premie, There is no way that it is possible NOT to feel afraid to turn your back on Maharaji. If we had not believed that he was the lord, it might be easy but most of us believed that he was the Master and so of course we were afraid to turn against him. The only way to do it is to just do it. If you are not proud of him and are ashamed and embarassed by him, just dump him. It's only after you've done it and realized that you have not shattered into a thousand pieces, turned into a rotting vegetable or been eaten by sharks that you will see what a pathetically pretentious little man Rev Rawat really is. Sincerely, Patrick Conlon, San Francisco, pdconlon@hotmail.com.

Subject: Thanks all and From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:36:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know your email, Nottingham Bunny. Or if I do have it, I don't know who you are. I have forwarded relevant responses to my friend. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

Subject: My email address From: Nottm Bunny To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 03:34:39 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Dave, I emailed you last week following our earlier exchanges and will re-send in case my message went astray. In the meantime, here is my new forum email address. Regards Bunny

Subject: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Former Instructor To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:39:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not new to this Forum, and have posted here often. However, I must use an even deeper alias today. Please forgive me. Yes, that's correct. I sadly have to admit today that, yes, I shagged the first aspirant that wanted Knowledge from me. It really put me through changes when I became an Instructor and began revealing the techniques of Knowledge to people on behalf of the Guru from Malibu, Maharaji. I was THE only person in my large urban center who was so designated. All of a sudden, it felt like I was a Beatle (but felt more like Ringo, the not-so-cute one). People calling me up left and right, making appointments to talk with me, see me, inviting me out to dinner, buttering me up, trying to inspire in me faith that they were in fact READY in my humble opinion -- the only one that counted locally at that point -- to receive Knowledge from me on M's behalf. So, anyway, there she was. My first aspirant. Private sessions and long Q&A discussions ensued. I was smitten with her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Did she stick with either myself or the Knowledge? No! It was a quickie infatuation with both. In hind sight, I quickly realized that, come to think of it, no, she wasn't quite ready to receive K. (My bad.) It was my first and last experience of taking advantage of my position as an Instructor. Instructor-aspirant is the same as student-teacher, boss-employee, counselor-camper when it comes to sexual harassment issues. I knew it as wrong ethically. We had gone over this in our Instructor Training. It was obvious. But, I was weak of the flesh. Human. Seduced. Taken in. Lost. Sorry. But so hot, hot, hot! Felt guilty? Yes. Last year, at one of the Knowledge Review screenings, I was asked by one of the Honcho Still Instructors if I had ever given people K because at the screening a premie had indicated that I had given her K (was her Instructor). The Honcho Instructor wanted to double-check that in fact I had ever been given permission to reveal K and that I had in fact ever given anyone K and was ever an Instructor. Yup, it was me. I have heard that I was not the only Instructor who might have done a little extra instructing on the side with certain of their clients. I regret the whole thing. I am sorry I ever heard of M or K. He really is a sorry case.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Salam To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:41:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But you can't give The K.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: Joe To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:06:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, Former Instructor, From what I understand there is a lot of that going on. I mean, you had one experience, but I understand there are current Instructors who have a premie or an aspirant 'in every port' as John MacGregor describes it. In some ways your post was kind of inspiring. I mean, it seems that normal human desires and needs, for affection and love, can transcend all the repressive bullshit of M's cult. It reminds me of one time in an ashram I was living in, when I walked in on two ashram premies getting it on. The female in the trist has been discussed many times on this Forum. Anyhow, I remember being kind of shocked but at the same time, I felt this sense of relief that there were ashram premies being human. I can see, however, why you might feel really weird about it, since you were in this 'high' position, and the asprirant was being indoctrinated to think you have something to give her (spiritually speaking :)), that would be this wonderful experience and the purpose of her life. I guess it would make you wonder if in any other situation, that relationship would have occurred. Have you talked to this woman since she left the cult? Since you left? It might be an interesting conversation.

Subject: Mind if I check out your credentials? From: cq To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:13:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the replies you've had so far indicate that your tale has been believed. If I were you, I'd be expecting a bit more investigation from us supposedly hard-nosed exes, before your story becomes accepted as truth. For all I know, you could be a premie spinning a yarn in the hope that it's accepted as gospel by the majority of exes who post/read here. Thereby invalidating the credibility of many, if not all, other witness stories that have been posted here. If you can make it to EPO, I think you'll find that JHB (the site concierge, if that's not too harsh a description of him) will require a bit more in the way of references before your post becomes enshrined as evidence of ... of what? by the way. Of your own humanity? Or of M's culpability in allowing the likes of you to spread his message? IMO, your story stinks.

Subject: Well... From: Joe To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:14:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe a premie would EVER say, even if they were trying to con ex-premies, that he is sorry he ever heard of M & K and that Maharaji is 'a sorry case.' A premie would never do that, because of the fear described below. So, this person is really an ex. As for whether the events happened, it probably isn't provable, but then so are most of the personal stories that get told on this forum. I can't see how the Former Instructcor would have a reason to lie about something like this.

Subject: Re: Mind if I check out your credentials? From: Former LET'S GET IT ON Instructor To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:49:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CQ: Gee, I'm sorry my story is not believable to you. Believe me, or not, it IS the absolute 100% truth. Besides the two of us, there WERE no witnesses. Sorry, no peeping toms, lurkers, voyeurs or camcorders running or present nearby. And I didn't bring it up in an instructors meeting to get feedback. F7 is the place where yesterday this story was first told to any human on earth. My spouse was shocked to read it yesterday!!!!! There was only one witness -- the aspirant. I haven't seen her in a long long time. I only knew her for a short while. Sorry about that. But, see here, Sherlock, these investigating 'supposedly hard-nosed exes,' are they looking for some sort of olfactory evidence? Like sniffing an old pair of boxers or briefs with some Monica Lewinsky type gathered evidence on them? EEEYEEEEEEW. I know you feel that my STORY stinks, but is this the kind of poop positive you require to rub your hard noses in? How disgusting. Sorry, old chap, my collection only goes back so far. I am no longer a premie. Please check with Mr. Gerry Lyng, Forum Administrator, for one, as to the truth of my identify, if you must. I'm sure he'll vouch for me. Your point about the point of my post is quite correct. It is an example of M's culpability in allowing not only the likes of me, but actually ME, to spread his message and reveal the techniques for kidding yourself into believing that the entire package, 'Knowledge,' coupled with undying devotion to a warped personality, is part and parcel of the Absolute Divine Truth of this Existence. Tells you a lot about the man, doesn't it? [My humanity? = A given.]

Subject: No way, no how. I ain't buyin' it From: cq To: Former LET'S GET IT ON Instructor Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:06:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who's this Gerry Lang??? (and that could NOT have been a typo)

Subject: 100% reliable From: Richard To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 18:17:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Former Instructor is 100% for real. He has contacted me to verify that the story is completely true. Buy it or not, but he's for real.

Subject: Gerry Lyng is the FA for F7 From: Francesca :~) To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:46:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Might be good to send ol' Gerry an e-mail and see whassup. You know, the old tension between having to be anon in order to tell your truth and all that. Both Gerry and JHB have manned the ex-premie confessional booth and vouched for people's credibility so that the rest of us can just take an anon ex at their word. Of course, other credible folks on this Forum have also done the same, such as with OTS and many others, including the infamous 'PAM' that turned out to be John MacGregor. Doo lang doo lang doo lang -- uh, I mean Lyng. :) Francesca

Subject: and Gerry's never been conned, has he? (nt) From: cq To: Francesca :~) Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:50:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and Gerry's never been conned, has he? (nt)

Subject: Never! :) From: gerry To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 12:50:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I know Former Instructor From: Barbara To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:14:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear cq: I know Former Instructor and he's definitely an ex.

Subject: I know Former Instructor: ditto From: gerry To: Barbara Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:02:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, he's legit Chris.

Subject: OK chaps, just testing From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 11:53:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: got to be on your toes, y'know news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/635000/images/_637987_army_150.jpg

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: a sympathizer To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:00:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your report. The flesh is weak. You did the right thing by shagging her. Probably helped her understand that the whole thing was bogus a lot sooner than if you would have not shagged her.

Subject: Re: Oops. I shagged my first aspirant. From: another sympathizer To: a sympathizer Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:17:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The flesh is not weak and it is normal to have sexual urges. The cult is weak. Good on you for your confession. Are you a former Catholic?

Subject: Well that's refreshing From: Richard To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:41:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Refreshing honesty that is. Thanks for telling the story and I hope it helps relieve a bit of the guilt. The two of you were consenting adults but it's good of you to cop to the violation of ethics. It was probably emphasized in your Instructor Training because some of your predecessors had similar liasons. That was the word in Denver anyway. 'That feeling' was certainly attractive and seductive. It's what got many of us hooked in the first place. It also sounds like it wasn't really K she was after so maybe you saved her from years of servitude. I confessed on the forum awhile back to having several ashram affairs. At the time it was a mix of forbidden fruit, sacred cow and an open, loving environment. Ashram lust was fairly commonplace, in Denver anyway, especially after M and M got married. After all, we're only human.

Subject: Bless you my son From: gerry To: Former Instructor Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 18:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...her lovely olive complexion and gorgeous looks, her beautiful busty shape, great eyes and lips. Beautiful, sexy speech patterns. Just a great total package. It just happened. It was great sex! Super! Now for your penance sing six Arti's, four Twameva's and get me her telephone number...

Subject: Re: Bless you my son From: Bolly Shri To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:05:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My first introduction to the cult was at a house sorry ashram in norf london, Ashokanand pre brylcreem and suits was sitting glowing with divine light in an arm chair. He looked quite gorgeos, so I decided the atraction was not to the spiritual life and went away only to return a year later when the mahatmas were a little bit more frumpy apart from the beautifull saris. The person who took me to the first visit was then warning me off the whole thing. If only I had listened to my friend and not the fat boy life would have been very different Bolly Shri

Subject: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: OTS To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:30:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are exceprts from yesterday's Washington Post. My question: How come Abi and Susan don't hire a U.S. lawyer who specializes in these types of cases and file a legal complaint here (regarding their childhood sexual assualts by Mahatma Jagdeo), since EV is headquartered in the U.S.? Is there some statute of limitations question? Something else? Thanks. If they get lawyers, then they don't ever have to speak with the other side in the matter again until deposition or trial. By Pamela Ferdinand Special to The Washington Post Wednesday, March 13, 2002; Page A01 BOSTON, March 12 -- The Archdiocese of Boston has agreed to pay up to $30 million to 86 people who accused defrocked priest John J. Geoghan of child molestation, an attorney for the plaintiffs said today. 'This is not happy money,' said Mitchell Garabedian, flanked in his downtown office by four somber men who said Geoghan abused them as boys. 'This is blood money.' The settlement puts to rest a highly publicized group of lawsuits that helped foment a national crisis in the Roman Catholic Church. But it does not resolve the problems facing the archdiocese -- where scores of alleged victims continue to surface, claiming sexual abuse by Geoghan and other priests -- or for the church as a whole, which is confronting a wave of similar cases around the country. This agreement, however, could serve as a model for resolving future claims, Garabedian said. The archdiocese agreed not to require plaintiffs to sign confidentiality agreements, a practice that has allowed it to conceal abuse allegations in the past. Church officials also agreed not to seek to obtain personal information about plaintiffs. . . . Today's settlement does not represent the largest amount of money involved in a clerical sex abuse case. In the 1990s, the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, N.M., paid more than $50 million to settle 45 cases of sexual abuse in which Jason Sigler was accused, and the church paid $36.5 million to settle abuse claims against former priest Rudy Kos. Besides the possibility of new lawsuits against him from alleged victims who continue to come forward, Geoghan, 66, was convicted of child molestation last month and began serving a nine- to 10-year sentence. He faces one more criminal trial for indecent assault and battery of a child. As news of today's settlement spread, David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) in St. Louis, commended Geoghan's victims for speaking out against an institution long cloaked in secrecy. 'Because of their courage, the consistent pattern of covering up for pedophile priests has been exposed,' Clohessy said. But while secular authorities have become more vigilant, he added, 'It's naive to think it's going to fundamentally make a difference in how the church handles abuse allegations.' Chancellor David Smith, who works as the archdiocese's chief financial officer, told the Associated Press that the archdiocese -- now in the midst of a $300 million capital campaign -- will pay for the settlements through a combination of insurance money, the sale of assets and private donations.

Subject: Re: Why don't Abi & Susan Take Legal Action From: Bolly Shri To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 07:08:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: England has no statute of limitations on child abuse cases Bolly shri

Subject: not a leaf moves?? [nt] From: David Smith ??? To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 03:58:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't speak for Abi From: Susan To: OTS Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 20:59:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These things are really tricky to talk about on the web. I can tell you when I read about those cases the only thing I think that would work for a case this old to be 'winnable' and lawsuits are not fun, would be to have a similar number of victims speaking forward. There is strength in numbers. I have no doubt Jagdeo has a huge number of victims, but unless we were to get some mainstream press, we probably could not find most of the victims. Abi and I both know other victims who are not willing to come forward, and I absolutely respect that for some people it is too painful and scary to do so.

Subject: Maharaji's new name, and EV's function From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:56:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq kindly pointed out below that Elan Vital's website, on the Maharaji page, says 'Prem Rawat, a.k.a. Maharaji'. This is big news so I though it deserved a new thread. Thanks, Chris. Also, Elan Vital's function, according to its website is:- 'Elan Vital Inc. produces and distributes materials worldwide, using its trade name Visions International. At present, these materials are enjoyed in over 80 countries, with written and oral translations provided in more than 60 languages.' Then, on the Visions International website, as pointed out below, there is no mention of any materials, in any language or country. A small lack of synchronicity, methinks. But if EV exists to produce and distribute materials, and there aren't any, what is EV all about? Perhaps someone at EV could answer this if the monitoring system is still in place. John.

Subject: Re: Maharaji's new name, and EV's function From: Salam To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:43:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Youare a Big Idiot!!!

Subject: THIS IS NOT THE REAL SALAM From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:14:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think it is nt From: Disculta To: Spam PaTROLL Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 07:46:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: adf

Subject: Re: I think it is nt From: Spam PaTroll To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 09:43:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It sounds a lot like what Salam could write, but the real Salam complained over on the Symposium (asking Chuck to remove the imposter) that there was a fake Salam posting. The fake one over there is the same fake one here. I think that's pretty unsavory, if not rude as hell. Cheers

Subject: Maharaji on stage... From: Picture This: To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:12:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at his next 'program' introducing himself with his new, endearing, intimate name: ''Hi, I'm Prem Rawat'' And the premies go wild! Another tactic to endear the remnants of his shrinking cult.

Subject: Re: Maharaji on stage... From: Salam To: Picture This: Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:45:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you go wild!!!Why should the Premies?

Subject: New article on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:12:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fifth Estate Magazine Article - September 14, 1973 Survives Beating by Guru's Devotees, 5th Estate Reporter in Good Shape Teen-age Guru's Secret 'Divine Light' Exotic Religious Techniques Exposed Readers' Letters to Fifth Estate Magazine

Subject: Re: New article on EPO From: Salam To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:53:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fuck your sister!!!

Subject: Someone is using Salam's name From: Spam PaTROLL To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 22:13:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This slob is using Salam's name; it's not the one and only real Salam.

Subject: Re: New article on EPO From: Salam To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:47:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where are you?

Subject: Maha reveals truth on my web site! From: Sir Dave :p To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 12:10:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From And It Is Divine www.geocities.com/lord_haharaji/Hoho/Gallery/index.htm freeland.mybravenet.com/Pics/mahainterest.jpg

Subject: He is adored From: Silvia To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 13:33:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you brought this photo/subject up; it is known that premies are in denial, or confused about maharalard's identity. What a mistery, eh? Who is the Lard? The premies/devotees got it I think. Maharalard is still Lord in 2002. All the premies I know think maharalard is the LORD, more, God incarnated and that they are connected with him, somehow. All depend in his grace, feel week, neurotic, and dependant. They feel totally powerlees and lost without contacting the master/Lard/Lord, specially when they have not seen him for a long time. The dependency most (well, all the ones i know, many, all of them really)of them have is obvious, and all of you can back me up on that because when we were premies we were TAUGHT to think like that. The words in my vocabulary I used in my daily basis became all focused on K and how horrible the world was. Only in 'HIS' world was worth living, whatever that meant. So, what the cult is about is that ONE is ready to rule and direct and the rest are ready to follow...the dream of the Lard: HE IS MASTER. Look at that photo! How many times did I kissed maharalard feet? Too many to remember, or count them, that to proof, kiss here and there that it's a cult. A human being kissing in submission the feet of another. COMMON! Independently of all the excuses premies may have all the devotion trip points to ONE direction and that is CULT. Those were neurotic days, nonsense!

Subject: Re: He is adored From: Sir Dave To: Silvia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 14:48:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's very true Sylvia. All the premies that I know of who are still premies, believe that Maha is God. By the way, the divine truth that Maha revealed in this pic is that while he is being worshipped by a premie, he is ogling a sexy blonde girl. That's where his real interest lies.

Subject: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 07:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone called Mac Surfer posted this on LG. I must admit it's the only position a premie can take these days and stay a premie. So anyway, here's what MS said:- Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 05:49:49 (EST) Original: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:10:05 (EST) Posted by: MS Recipient: JHB Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC) Subject: No. I talk - you listen Message: Maharaji is an incarnation of God and he most definitely deserves all the worship he gets. What he has done over 30 years to elevate the consciousness of the individual is incalculable. I also consider my self an incarnation of sorts, but not one so dedicated and focussed on sharing it around the world. I'd wager I get more destracted by dumbass things as well. The psychological effect on those sincere people who really tried to listen to him? A healthy blessing, the best. If I were you, I would be a lot more concerned about those insincere people who really didn't listen to him. Yes, I will calmly debate. Though I have noticed a somewhat scarcity of calmness on these forums. However, my community has encouraged me to take a look, so here I am. You won't find me on F7. I've heard they attack anyone who dares say they like and admire Maharaji. If you're going to ask questions, there's a couple you needn't bother with. I don't care how many chick, drugs and booze fests ANYONE attends. I do the same things and still consider myself a conscious, worthwhile person with plenty of good things to offer and share. Neither am I concerned with the wild and crazy guru followers who've fucked up over the years. Sorry, but I never signed on as a Jesus clone whose going to take on the suffering of the whole world and weep and gnash my teeth over the ills that befall those around me. Hit and run? Forget it! I seriously wounded a fellow with a rock once but allowed one of my subordinates to take the rap. That was just the pecking order at the time. No shame, no blame. Now, any real questions?

Subject: A real follower of the real Maharaji! Outrageous! From: Sulla To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 11:18:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to like and admire Maharaji From: wolfie To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:35:43 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi, all I can say it is a psychological phenomen. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is allright. But this is all so far I can see a narcistic game. Someone on the thron tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have recieved this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have recieved this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcistic person is very pleased to hear this wonderful words because it fills a unrealised emptiness and it really feels so good not to feell this emtptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the activ narcist and in the audience there are sitting the passiv narcistic ones. The activ one wants admiration and thankfullness and the passiv one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people wíth the same neurotic condition come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realised soul, a god incarnation, the empodiement of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, specially Maharji himself is so narcistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is somoene supirior. We waited for him, that is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay , it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undevelopt narcistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realise that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creats more or less suffering, he has a difficult pesonality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his follwers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that had happened alreay many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look evrywhere but not in the narcistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselfs in relation to people without knowlege and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emtonal high they get when they leader tells his deciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complet mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, nomore probagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. back in time and space ..............Wolfie

Subject: Yep! A narcosis of narcism. Well said, Wolfie /nt From: Carl To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:15:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yowza

Subject: J-M: *****Best OF***** From: gerry To: wolfie Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:51:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post, wolfie and a clear explanation of the 'mechanics' of the situation. Folie de deux is the term that applies to the relationship of Maha and his followers, I believe (if I haven't slaughtered the French language, that is.) I've taken the liberty of touching up the spelling a little and break it into more paragraphs, but I must say your command of the English language is very good. Hi, All I can say it is a psychological phenomena. The Premies - and I was one for a long time - are blinded on one eye. They think they are conscious because they think they understand what M is talking about, and they think they understand it because they get high on a special emotion. They enjoy this emotion and when we enjoy something we think this is alright. But this is all so far I can see a narcissistic game. Someone on the throne tells you, that you are beautiful an graced, that it is a special grace that you have received this wonderful knowledge and that the people who have received this knowledge are in one way special people. The narcissistic person is very pleased to hear these wonderful words because it fills a unrealized emptiness and it really feels so good not to feel this emptiness and loneliness for an hour or two. On the stage there is the active narcissist and in the audience there are sitting the passive narcissistic ones. The active one wants admiration and thankfulness and the passive one is ready to give whatever is needed not to feel the inner emptiness. There is this feeling of oness, the feeling that he speaks only to me and this has a magic touch. But this is what always happens when special mental conditions meet together and today I say when people with the same neurotic conditions come together. So far the thing works, has worked, works and will work. There are many examples in history. Leaders and followers. Our hope was that Maharaji is a divine person, a realized soul, a god incarnation, the embodiment of love, but this only came out of our already deluded minds, when we follow someone, then it must be minimum a divine person. It was so easy to fool us, especially Maharji himself is so narcissistic that he himself believed or still believes that he is someone superior. We waited for him, which is true, I got high on emotion (bliss) I felt we are one. So far all this is not touched by the normal human life, everything is okay, it is like the man who fell in love with the TV-Star and refused al other women. So far we stay in our undeveloped narcissistic state of mind Maharaji does a wonderful job he gives us the drug we want and we need, the danger about this drug is that we don't realize that it has the same function like a drug. Most of Maharaji's premies have difficult personalities and this creates more or less suffering, he has a difficult personality too and he promises us, look people life can be simple, and when life is simple than everything is okay. He has the same longing like we cause he suffers the same difficult personality as his followers. So far we don't get information about his complicated life full of lies and arrogance, we still can believe that he can teach us something that releases us from our difficulties we all have more or less. But in the moment I see that all this is a game that has happened already many times between followers and leaders and we often wonder where games like this end up. Premies are allowed to look everywhere but not in the narcissistic corner of our minds. Premies really should try to understand themselves in relation to people without knowledge and they should see that they still suffer like average people. The only thing is the emotional high they get when they leader tells his disciples that they are wonderful, graced, that life only is worth- while with a master and the knowledge the master gives. So I stop hear now, premies will say: Oh this guy is in a complete mind trap. Yes I know that my perception is a part of my problems, but at least I have got rid of one problem and that is Maharaji from Malibu, no more propagation, no more videos, I'm free to suffer and I don't have to be ashamed when I have a problem or when my life is not perfect in tune with Mr. Goober and his plans. Back in time and space ...Wolfie

Subject: Re: J-M: *****Best OF***** From: wolfie To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 06:09:24 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi Gerry, thanks for doing that. I'm very insecure with the english language. Anyway it is a problem for me, because most of the english I speak is very influenced by 2 million Satsangs from Mr.Goober. ......ciao.....wolfie

Subject: thanks for that, Gerry From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:28:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your transliteration should help a few readers get past the occasional idiosyncrasies of Wolfie's original (which has a certain raw germanicness - if that's the right word - that appeals to me, having formerly been in a lengthy relationship with one particularly beautiful woman who was German by birth). But the main point of his post - the narcissism that is an inherent part of premiehood - that I think is, above all, what keeps people stuck in the Goo's cult. To admit they'd been mistaken - well, that's not a Narcissist's way, is it?

Subject: Re: thanks for that, Gerry From: gerry To: cq Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 17:05:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're welcome, Chris, but I just ran spellcheck and broke it into afew more paragraphs. I too like the 'Germanisms' and wouldn't think of changing them. :)

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:32:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes this, yet another anonymous, premie any differenrt from the others. He is just another catweasel. A floating entity with no human values. Just like m. Hmmm well he is just like m in that he considers himself an 'incarnation'. 'Hit and run? Forget it!' who wants to address the issue of one insignicant young man losing his life, let alone the issue of child abuse and rape??...let's just talk about THAT feeling Oh of course I forgot 'incarnations' are above human values. Mac is just another cultist pissing in the wind. You'de think there's be at least one or 2 who would post under their own names and show some integrity. cheers Jethro

Subject: Integrity and human values From: PatD To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:16:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read the full conversation between JHB & this guy on LG & am appalled. This Mac is a dangerous man. Amoral,intelligent,superior,& above all deluded (or maybe that should be,above all amoral) He's lucky though & not because of his master's grace either. He's lucky that he lives in a society where you can set out your stall as a complete bastard & get away with it. maybe he wouldn't feel so blissful if he lived somewhere where complete bastards look at each other through crosshairs. Or maybe he would.

Subject: Re: An honest premie speaks on LG! From: John Smith To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 08:47:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What and trust you lot?

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 09:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This idea that premies are unsafe here if they post under their own names needs to be addressed. The only instance of any premie being put under any pressure because his name was published on the ex-premie forum was Charles Glasser after he had put up a website attacking ex-premies as mentally ill drug addicts, alongside extracts from ex-premies' personal published journeys. And all that happened to Charles is that someone contacted him at his work address making an innocent enquiry about the allegations on the site. We've also written a very polite letter to Ron Geaves about his part in a published video. Ex-premies on the other hand have been attacked by anonymous premies, including Charles before he was outed, and those behind the CAC site. But regardless of premie or ex-premie, CAC is the worst that's happened. No premie has ever been threatened, stalked, harrassed, libeled, slandered, or outed to their employers. No, the worst that happens to premies is that we argue with them. We attack concepts and arguments that, in our view, need to be attacked. Some of us do get frustrated and do occasionally express that frustration, but the majority of us are polite if challenging. Experience on these forums proves that any premie who comes here, willing to sincerely discuss their view of Maharaji, gets a robust, but fair, hearing, and that includes those very few who have posted under their real names such as Erika and Sandy. So, the reality is, you can trust ex-premies. Rumours to the contrary are simply false. John.

Subject: Re: Trust From: John Smith To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 15:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah ..Right......And I'm Snow White........

Subject: Re: Trust From: JHB To: John Smith Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 17:06:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Snow White, Which part of this is wrong? Seriously, can you answer? John.

Subject: disappearing premies From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 08:19:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny how premies suddenly disappear when you ask them a straightforward question. Or they return later and start talking about something else - just like politicians in fact - or anyone else in the business of spin. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: John Smith To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 10:54:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ever thought we might just not be shagged to keep answering crap?

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Livia To: John Smith Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How eruditely you write, John. My point is that the disappearing always seems to occur at those pertinent moments. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Lesley To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 14:55:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, It is annoying isn't it. I was pretty certain R2 was another incarnation of the regular attendees, decided it was most likely David Roupell. But, but, but, you can't be sure, and then I thought I caught the whiff of a true believer, so I copied the post off, took the time to reply seriously and carefully to it, and voila, no response. Admittedly, I can't be, er, shagged to think about it for more than a passing moment, but it surprises me that they write these posts posing as the genuine article, a premie who is seeking to understand the truth of what they are involved in. That was a good thread, Livia, love Lesley

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: Livia To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Mar 17, 2002 at 12:07:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Lesley. I think the same problem is beginning to occur in a debate I've been having with R2 down below. He tends to ignore the questions that are just too difficult to answer. I can understand it, though; I used to do the same thing myself when I was a practising premie. Didn't we all! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: disappearing premies From: John Smith To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 15:21:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Genuine article ? with a name like John Smith? Is there something in the Byron Shire water or is irony something removed?

Subject: A perfect master on perfect masters From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:39:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified.' Shri Hans Ji Maharaji Maharaj said this. I posted it on a thread down below but think I'll put it here too. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: A perfect master on perfect masters From: **** To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 16:55:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice

Subject: In memory of Richard Matacz.... From: Mel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:53:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: who passed away in Thailand in a road accident recently. Some Australian premies and ex's may have known Richard. A noble soul. Mel

Subject: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Steve Quint To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 20:33:17 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I haven't smoked since last Thursday night (was smoking 20 - 30 cigarettes a day) and had hernia surgery last Friday - it's been a crazy week, believe me. I've just shown a friend some of my recent writings along with some of the encouragement I've received to continue writing and gain more insight in doing so. It's going to get harder in the next installments because I'm the type of person that wants to know why I/we were taken for a ride by someone who has claimed to be the ultimate dispeller of darkness/revealer of light of our age and has only seemed to have profitted materially by doing so. It's frightening to me - why did I have a father who was critical to an extraordinary degree. After years in ACOA (Adult Children Of Alcoholics, a twelve-step program) and much therapy, I still don't have a satisfying answer. So I have to go slowly and tread on ground, much of which resembles my childhood which is like a dead-end, analytically. Interestingly my mom just told me that she and a therapist she spoke to think I need to write about my childhoold as well, but I wonder whether this is the place. Probably not, so I'll find a proper place to do so, maybe just in a word processer. I'll also be updating the journey entry on E.P.O. so that anyone who wants to will be able to refer to what's already been written. Here goes: I received 'knowledge' from Nadine Lebas in August 1977. In her selection she asked who was doing service. I said I was, even though I was only donating money. Here's a strange example of how mental interpretation is related to the supposedly spiritual practice of 'knowledge'. What if I had donated only ten cents a week and continued to do so after 'receiving knowledge'. Would I be entitled to 'realize knowledge' (does anyone have a definition of what 'realizing knowledge' means)? A week later I moved to London Ontario to do a master's degree in economics at The University Of Western Ontario. The first semester was interrupted by two analogous events - Hans Jayanti 1977 in Rome and my grandfather's funeral. I felt obliged to go to both for similar reasons - family obligation and extended family obligation. In Rome I sat in the hotel room for about a week as it must of been cheaper to book charter flights with longer turnaround than to save on hotels. Anyway I missed about a week and a half to two weeks of school and failed the semester. (By the way my only nephew, Ariel son of Arnie Lade and my sister Harriet Quint/Lade, both ex-premies, is right in the middle of the second semester in his masters of arts in economics at The London School Of Economics - there must be a God for such amazing coincidences to occur. There was always a paradox in that nobody in my family or the premie world gave a damn whethere I completed the degree, but of course my income-earning ability was appreciated later. When I returned to Montreal, I went back to work for my cousin and his alcololic parter, two chartered accountants. Their constant fighting echoed my parents' constant fighting. The firm eventually fell apart but I moved to another accounting firm in the fall of 1978. I worked as Divine Light Mission Montreal's volunteer accountant as well, with Georges Legere as my supervisor - he was district financial manager. The next part gets good and very sad - the beginning of my active mental illness, confinement in a psychiatric ward with virtally no premie visiting in the spring of 1979 (with extremely insignificant exceptions), physical impairment (broken bones through psychotic adventure which still affect me). And to think - I returned to the programs around 1983 and continued going until fairly recently). What's wrong with me to be as loyal as I was? More to come as soon as possible. Steve

Subject: Re: Journey Entry Third Installment From: Livia To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:29:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, nice to see you back here. Even though I don't know you I was wondering how it had gone with your hernia surgery - glad to see you have survived to tell the tale and are on typing form again! Your journey is really interesting and well written; hope you make it through in one piece - we're all here for you on this wicked Forum 7, full of thick deluded ex-premies who just didn't know what was good for them. (For 'thick' definition, see Moles post above) BTW, I was interested to see you mention a couple of weeks ago that it was a programme with Charanand that was the final drip for you. What happened? I always remembered Charanand as a beautiful soul, although I must say that the last couple of times I saw him, he seemed to have lost most of his original sparkle - he seemed quite troubled, I thought. Anyway, all the best for a speedy recovery and I look forward to reading you lots more here, as I'm sure we all do! With love, Livia

Subject: Journey Entry Third And A Half Installment From: Steve Quint To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 16:05:05 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: I felt disturbed the day after the program with charanand and went out and did some drugs - not the right response. I did not find him very inspiriring, inspired or enlightened - just a glib speaker. My story to date as far as involvement with maha is concerned is: -Attraction to good advertising -Attraction to intelligent and slippery and charismatic mahatmas who seem to know something that most people don't, i.e. seem to have the 'secret knowledge that they talk about' -Follow the direction of the community coordinators and other local yokels when the mahatmas, later initiators, weren't around. At some point, probabably at the very begininnig, it was the 'blind leading the blind'. -Blame myself when things don't go right - this is lethal. You've got the perfect knowledge and you still screwed up? You must be really fucked up, in contrast to the divine mahatmas, coordinators maharaji and others around him who are so perfect. Charanand seemed to be reciting a prepared speech when I saw him. Something bothered me about the program, but my reaction to go out and do drugs wasn't right. Gotta find other ways of finding peace. Steve

Subject: I really enjoy your writing, Steve From: PatC To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 04:25:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I'll have to write my Journey like you - in instalments. You're always welcome to post your childhood story on Chuck's forum The Symposium. BUT, one of the reasons that I enjoy your writing so much is that it is so naked and raw. I would worry a bit that you bared yourself too much for your own good but I would respect that and hope others would too. Thanks again for sharing your writings. I hope writing does as much good for you as it does for me. It sure helps me to clarify my thoughts.

Subject: Arne Lade's here in Vic From: Jim To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 23:33:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Steve, Do you ever see or hear from Arne? I remember all the Lade brothers when they first started coming around just before or after Millenium. Arne's a new age healer type. We talked a bit when I moved here 11 years ago. He didn't quite see Maharaji the way I did, him being of the 'nothing's a mistake' school of thought and me being more along the lines of 'you gotta be kidding'. Good story. Keep it coming.

Subject: Steve, I have to say... From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:08:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a damn good read. Thanks.

Subject: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Wed, Mar 13, 2002 at 17:23:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a discrete meal with a PAM recently, who, after a couple of bottles of wine, told me a funny story about Captain Rawat and his co-pilot. As you may know, Rawat is very touchy about revealing his secret identity as a cult leader, when flying his private jets around the world. He likes to pretend he’s an airline pilot. This way he goes through the Crew Gate when he arrives, and avoids embarrassing searches and questions. This is particularly useful when he lands in India. Everyone pretends the jet belongs to someone else, so he can slip into the country with the minimum of hassle. Anyway, when he’s travelling like this, he makes all the premies call him “Captain Rawat”, and nobody is allowed to even hint at his secret life as “Living Perfect Master.” Sometimes he flew, and maybe still flies, with a co-pilot who isn’t in the cult, and knows nothing of Rawats delusions of arriving on Earth with more power than Jesus and Krishna. Any premies in the presence of the co-pilot, keep up the pretence of Rawat being nothing more than a pilot. Three or four years ago, Captain Rawat flew to Australia with such a co-pilot. After arriving at Amaroo, the Captain discovered that the local newspaper planned on printing a story about him and his cult. Apparently the Captain went apeshit and threw a tantrum, threatening never to return to Australia. There was also a secondary panic in case the co-pilot saw the article and discovered the secret identity of his workmate. A solution was found. The co-pilot was sent back to America for a week or so, covering the period that the article appeared. (I think they made up an excuse, something like, “he had to collect a spare part”). This was to prevent him discovering he was flying next to the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the Earth. Unfortunately for the Captain, when the co-pilot got back to Australia, someone showed him a copy of the article anyway. So the expensive charade was in vain, and the co-pilot found out he’d been flying with God in human form after all. Not a leaf moves…etc. Anth, laughing all the way to Passport Control.

Subject: God is your Pilot, Anth Ji From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 19:54:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brother Anth Ji, So nice to be reading words of wisdom from my dear brother ji. Old mahatma ji lost his glasses but a nice premie told me what you said. Correct me if I am wrong. You are telling wonderful parable of some person you call The Captain. This Captain, who I recall used to torture your dreams, was traveling on aeroplane and discovered that he?d been flying with God in human form after all. What a wonderful parable for us all. We go along through this Maya of trips and traps and one day discover that God in human form, Guru Maharaj Ji, all along has been flying us. All we have to do is let go and not only will Sant Ji rock us in His Divine Swing, He will also be pulling our joy stick to fly our plane. Such a beautiful story Anth Ji. I thank Guru Ji that you have finally stopped obsessing over that ghost of a bastard captain and seen the Light. Like you so wisely said, not a leaf moves . . . Your brother at the Lotus Feet, Mahatma Coat

Subject: How much did it cost? From: JHB To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 03:30:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The aviation fuel, air traffic control, and landing costs for this totally pointless trip would not be insignificant, and I think it's likely that the Amaroo accounts would show those costs as travelling expenses for the main speaker. Hey premies, what do you think of the way your master spends your money? What a pillock. John.

Subject: Missed you, Anth From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 01:33:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were just talking, the other day, me and the little lady -- where's Anth?, she's saying. Beats me, I'm saying. And then here you are! Too much, eh? How's it?

Subject: Hi Jim From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:48:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, It's a lightning visit. My mum is seriously ill at the moment, and I'm spending lots of time up North with her, so I won't be around again for a while. Besides that, the premie who told me about the co-pilot is extremely pissed off and paranoid that I spilled the beans, so I'm in the shit too, as they told me not to put it on the forum. All I can say is an insincere 'Sorry', and seeing Catweazle hear again made me so mad, I couldn't help myself. Ah well, what the fuck. Why be scared of the truth, and what the fuck did they tell me for if it was supposed to be a secret. Anth in the doghouse.

Subject: Re: Captain Rawat and the Co-pilot From: Bai Ji To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 00:33:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth Ji, Good to hear you again. One night M was joking with some of us how His Co-Pilot, pre flight, was sculling a glass of vodka and was in No state to fly (ha ha..) I got the impression that this was a fairly regular occurrence ya know, toss a coin, see who's the most sober. (No that's unfair and pure speculation) everyone laughed I noticed except the two people he was mainly directing this reminiscence to, one being one of his ex hostesses, her face was pretty stony. She also shared some rather blood chilling stuff with me re her In-Flight experiences. Waaay too Hard for any body to have to process in my estimation. I only hope that she and her husband are able to shake Him out of their lives eventually and move on. Anth I haven't heard from Abi, did you pass on that stuff I sent you and tell her that she can write me? I would dearly like to know if she's OK. Love Bai X

Subject: Hi Bai Ji From: AJW To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Yes, I sent the stuff on to Abi. I've not been in touch for a while, as I'm a bit out of the loop with emails etc at the moment, (see above). Anth the melting ice.

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!