Subject: PROPAGATION From: AV To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:06:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody know about what is REALLY happening with propagation these days? I see things here about DVDs etc. but as I cannot see any evidence of even loosely structured premie communities where videos etc. used to take place, I wondered how any momentum is generated? Are there still functioning video and tape libraries? How do people 'get into the loop' if there are no instructor visits / selections. I mean, if someone new came along to see M,where would they go? apart from the internet that is? Where is the human link in the chain?

Subject: and the importance of Lila From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:06:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once we accepted the idea of lila, all changes could easily be explained. This concept was an important concept in a religion that was not a religion that outwardly(though supposedly inwardly) freed us of our concepts. If you get my drift. 'it's not in the words' was another very important concept for us to accept. This allowed THE SPEAKER to tell us the earth was flat one day and round the next and easily covered up the fact that he didn't have a clue really. Sometimes now, it seems that Mr. Rawat was just running a marketing program called 'Start your own Cult' and lila was an integral part. Many of the anti-cult websites reveal this marketing program under characteristics of a cult, who is vulnerable to a cult, etc.

Subject: Re: PROPAGATION From: Bai Ji To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:54:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome to the Forum AV, I have read your recent entries with interest. Are you an ex PAM? Your insightful, finger on the pulse views would intimate that you have/had direct immersion in the world of 'Servicio' Well enough to make you intelligently bitter and cynical. Re: Propagation? Video Library Home delivery is now fully available to all. For a small nominal fee ,(which I might add does only cover mailing costs in my community) It's still basically up to the die hard Go-pee's to do the do. 'But only if you want to' Which is the clause to remove all responsibility from the Heirachy and place it firmly where it belongs , on the Victims..errr I mean devotee. I myself, (redundant) am freshly RAW and in the Ex Preemie nursery taking all the self indulgent nursing I can get. (Read pretty fucked up) I have lots of love and support her though. Hi guys, I hope to be back on line soon. I think of you all often. Hope you're all OK too. Hey Cynth and Livia. XXXX Bai Ji

Subject: To:Bai Ji From: AV To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:36:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanx B Bitter and cynical?? really?? I was hoping to be dispassionate, oh well, guess if it's there, better out than in....from my perspective , I feel sad, raw, and have this weird spaced feeling in my head, and get upset easily. I accept the term 'premie' in its literal sense, as a lover of truth, of all that is essentially good and wholesome; thus I will always be a premie. However there is the Question ( and a pretty big question ) of the blind acceptance of everything M says or does to be 'of the TRUTH'. It would be wonderful to think (as many did) that there is a person in the world who is a constant well of inspiration and true guide toward the eternal in whom we can take shelter and direction. If that we so , how extraordinary, how amazing!! But there are stories of damaged lives and wounded hearts, financial excesses, that seem to become more profligate by the day, and until I see or read something that addresses this in a simple straighforward, human way, then the bold-underlined question mark will remain stamped on my head. I read Glen's internal memo to Ros, and it seemed more a case of how can we get some diversionary tactics and damage limitation in place, than attending to the casualties. In the light of all this, current words of truth from the master have a decidedly hollow ring, even if you are lucky enough to glean any sense from them, which I have to say I can't. This is a great sadness, because I used to be so inspired/uplifted, but the teamwork posting (for example),left me feeling that I'd been listening to a random word generator...were it not so, my friend, were it not so.

Subject: Premies profiled in LEADERS article From: Inside Edition To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 23:27:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine received his copy of LEADERS today. His report: The current 202 page issue of LEADERS table of contents lists 35 interviews with (primarily) corporate leaders (none of which has ANY author) as well as a list of six (what sure appear to be paid) 'special reports' on EDS, Ernst & Young, Active International, Chubb, ADC and Prem Rawat Foundation. Six people associated with self-knowledge are profiled in this eight page spread: 1. Richard Cooper, senior vice president - Grubb & Ellis Co. (global real estate services). Involved since 1971. 2. Neil Evans, exec. director - National Workforce Center for Emerging Technologies. (Microsoft CIO - '83 - '94). Involved since 1974. 3.Marcus L. Munger, PhD - senior scientist - R&D - Lockheed Martin. Involved since 1972. 4. Dr. Sandy Hewitt - director - Business Excellence, Rolls Royce. Involved since 1975. 5. Lauren Evers - CEO - Intellikey Labs - DVD testing. Involved since 1997. 6. Dr. Giulio Cossu - director - Stem Cell Research Institute, Milan. Involved 'only recently'. Rawat's interview says NOTHING. Example: HOW DOES THE PREM RAWAT FOUNDATION OPERATE? Our focus is not really on the organization itself as much as on what we do. The organization is a tool that is flexible enough to change with the needs of the times. What we do is greater than the sum of all the elements of the organization, and this approach has to be maintained. A lot of young people are now participating, and it's wonderful to see the wide spectrum of people involved in the work, the old mixing with the young. How about: HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR YOU TO MAINTAIN A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PERSONS TO WHOM YOU SHOW THE TECHNIQUES OF SELF-KNOWLEDGE? Well, it's up to the people involved. If they want to pursue the relationship, they can. It's up to them. My favorite, the end-quote: FINALLY, WHAT IS YOUR OWN PERSONAL MEASURE OF SUCCESS? If I can keep satisfying my passion (his 'work'), that is success for me.

Subject: So the Big M is going to Clone himself? From: Quiet`s mate To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 03:24:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now we can have our own personal Maharaji. Wow wont Krishna be pissed off?

Subject: in case you missed prev.post From: Kerry To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:44:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TPRF carries a sample of the article - cites the interviewer as David Schner (Leaders president). I thought it interesting but probably coincidental that John W. Teets who is the International Chairman of Leaders has a Gulf IV - isn't that the type of plane M. has?

Subject: Re: in case you missed prev.post From: Quiet`s mate To: Kerry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 03:28:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apparently Ms old Plane was a GIV-SP. His reported new Plane is a GV (longer range. I wonder what he is going to do when he finds out there is a Newer More Modern Version? The newer one is the GV-SP. It has more gadgets and a londer range.

Subject: Re: in case you missed prev.post From: He'll meditate on it To: Quiet`s mate Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:20:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Mitch's journey and white pages entry From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:01:13 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Mitch's journey is here, and the White Pages are here. Maharaji is either the real thing or full of sh..... I agree. John.

Subject: John, could you please change my email? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:29:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just realized that that old, old one's up. The current email is: jimheller@shaw.ca When you get a chance. Thanks, Jim

Subject: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:19:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look what just arrived in my inbox! It seems that the dear London Pwks have sent in an invitation to Prem Rawat to come to London and, it would appear, that Mr Tawar may even Grace the London PWKS. Elan Vital are saying 'The afternoon at LSE Bankside will be a chance to see how we might help support such an event.' I guess they mean free labor and lots of money contributions. It will be very interesting to see what 'spin' is put on the recent makeover that Prem wishes the pwks to believe. I am very tempted to attend for old time sake - anyone care to join me? Liv? london area email: april 2002 A day of inspiration and information You are invited to attend an afternoon event on Sunday 28th April from 2pm-5pm at LSE Bankside, 24 Sumner Street, London SE1 (very near Tate Modern). You may know that Maharaji has been invited to London to do an event this summer where we would have the opportunity to invite guests. This would be a London (or London and Southeast England) event and not a national project. The afternoon at LSE Bankside will be a chance to see how we might help support such an event. Of course there will be videos, etc as well.

Subject: Look, this is important... From: Neville To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:08:32 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: ...because M's strategy is one of rebranding. We need to know what the current party line is, or we wind up fighting yesterday's battle. (This is what premies constantly contend about us.)I don't think I can get to London, but someone should find out what the mood is now in DLM aka EV aka PRF. (Apart from the galloping self-delusion, which we already know about.) Neville

Subject: Re: Look, this is important... From: Opie To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:25:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apart from the galloping self-delusion, which we already know about. Pictures of wild but tamed horses come to mind! LOL yes I agree it is v. important - lets see if I have the stamina to sit through 3 hours of devotional vids and cultspeak. Diary permitting. OP

Subject: Re: Look, this is important... From: Neville To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 08:05:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief! Three hours? I was contemplating some spiritual espionage but the thought of all that cr*p again is definitely scary. Do your worst Evil Dr M, torture me if you must, but please, no more bloody satsang. I guess I'm not cut out to be a spy... Neville

Subject: The London Latvian Mafia From: JHB To: Opie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:51:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We will be there, at least in spirit. When we moved to London from Leeds in 1980, we were still dedicated and tried to find service and a community in London, but it never happened. After my marriage broke up in 1991, I renewed my dedication, but there were only video events and the regular Yoram Weiss 'give us your money' events. Attending a preparatory meeting for a tprf leader event sounds like the motivation I and the London Latvian mafia need. John the preparing my ieroci:-)

Subject: Re: The London Latvian Mafia From: Bolly Shri To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:16:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh! gosh Oh! golly, bliss and stuff, Oh! dear will I be able to attend and see the lard. You see guys I'm not sure I'm a PWK, I only got the ultimate experience in 1972, which I practised with a degree of diligence on and off for years. In the 1990s there was a knees up in Nottingham, and the devotees told me our main man was giving k reviews, and that we had to do this review I think there was an upgrading of techniques, like how to really close your mind and and open up your bank account to a universe of bullshit. Anyway the long and the short of it is as I only have bog standard ultimate truth and not new improved k with crunchy bits and extra vitamin k plus am I a true PWK? Am I maybe a retro PWK, like a reliant robin or something? Remember when K was a simple thing, and all you had to do was talk bollocvks? Love to all

Subject: Re: The London Latvian Mafia From: Op To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 06:50:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly Shri Am I maybe a retro PWK, like a reliant robin or something? Nope, you were always a Rolls Royce - Rawat, for his own ends, damaged the goods on the way. We are all now undergoing a vintage restoration job - and it feels real good! Re: Knowledge Reviews. I think that one main reason that these were given so actively was the potential legal considerations Rawat felt there was in showing old style light technique and the damage this may cause to eyeballs. This was changed at some point involving less pressure on the eyeballs. Funny how little explanation was given why the old style was no longer de rigour. Bests Op

Subject: IEROCI? From: Opie To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:47:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB ieroci? International Event Reception - Outside Counsel Included? Nope you got me stumped! Cheers Opie PS BM nearly done.

Subject: IEROCI? - It's Latvian:-) [nt] From: JHB To: Opie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:32:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Livia To: Opie Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:44:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, having not been to see him since about 1997 I would be quite curious to see what he and the whole thing is like now. If it's on a date I can make it, I may well go. Anyone else interested? God, this is ironic. The whole place will soon be filling up with exes instead of premies. Or the premies will all have turned into exes. Whatever. However you look at it, it becomes more farcical by the moment. It could be fun to go together, all us Brits on Forum 7. Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: Bolly Shri To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:23:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure if they@ll let me in and the date fits with my schedule

Subject: To LIV Re: Prem Rawat coming to London ???! From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:13:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: could be interesting Liv, specially after being clued in re EPO etc. just to sit and listen as a 'regular guy' and try and figure out what the message of the moment is.......be dead funny if it's all the exes that are wearing the big smiles tho'!!!!

Subject: Darshan line count From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:45:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was reading a thread below about darshan lines and the envelopes that used to be handed out, and was recalling that at one festival I was given the service of counting every single person that went through the darshan line. I was given a little clicker thing for the purpose. Does anybody know why this counting went on? Was it because Maharaji just wanted to know the exact headcount as a way of taking stock? Or, and now I really am getting cynical, could it have been so they/he could work out how much the average premie was donating into those white envelopes? Just wondering. Love, Livia

Subject: Statistics/Money From: Observer To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:14:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji has always had an anal obsession with statistics. So, your boring 'service' to count those going to the darshan line was probably because Maharaji wanted to know. It inflated his ego if the numbers grew. Now, with numbers shrinking, he requires strange counting gimicks to make the numbers look larger (-- there are reports of how counts are to be made of those attending video events in the most convoluted fashions, which results in counting the same person several times), etc. that fill no other purpose. In the late 70s and early 80s, Maharaji often netted up to $(US) 250,000 for a few hours work having his feet kissed. By that time, Maharaji made it known he wanted cash and no more other 'gifts' which were useless to him, not that he gave them away, he just got warehouses in which to store them.

Subject: Re: Statistics/Money From: Livia To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:54:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. Incidentally, the programme I was referring to was in 1978, the era in which you say he was netting $250,000. Amazing, really, to think it was as much as that. $250,000 was a lot of money in those days. Out of interest, do you know what happened to all the stuff that was stored in warehouses? If there were toys (for his children, perhaps?) why on earth were they not given to needy children I wonder? But then of course, no cause was ever considered as having any worth if it wasn't.....need I go on. Love, Livia

Subject: Some thoughts for Dep, and others ... From: cq 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:06:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This injunction was carved into the lintel at the Temple of Apollo at Delphi: 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' 'Know Thyself'. The Oracle at Delphi, known as the 'Pythia', once declared Socrates the wisest man on earth. This because he was famed for declaring that he knew nothing. The four techniques of meditation that Rawat has mixed and matched are a poor substitute for true self-knowledge, and his arrogance at claiming to be a 'leader in the field of self-knowledge' marks him out as the opportunist charlatan he is. No doubt people will learn something from coming into contact with him, though. Learn not to surrender to charlatans, at least. 'We must dispell our glamours'. - excerpts from Djwhal Khul/Alice Bailey books Here are the names of some glamours: 1. The Glamour of Destiny. This is a glamour which indicates to the one whom it controls, that he has important work to do, and he must speak and work as destined. This feeds a pride which has no foundation in fact. 2. The Glamour of Aspiration. Those thus conditioned are completely satisfied and preoccupied with their aspiration towards the light and rest back on the fact that they are aspirants. Such people should move on to the Path of Discipleship and cease their preoccupation and satisfaction with their spiritual ambitions and goals. 3. The Glamour of Self Assurance. This is the belief that the disciple regards that his point of view is entirely right. This again feeds pride and tends to make the disciple believe himself an authority and infallible. This is the background of the theologian. 4. The Glamour of Duty. This leads to an over emphasis on if the sense of responsibility, producing lost motion and the emphasis on the non-essential. 5. The Glamour of Environmental Conditions. Leading frequently to a sense of frustration, or futility of importance. 6. The Glamour of the Mind and of it's efficiency and it's capacity to deal with any or every problem. This leads inevitably to isolation and loneliness. 7. The Glamour of Devotion. The man or woman thus glamoured sees only one idea, one person, one authority and one aspect of the truth. It feed fanaticism and spiritual pride 8. The Glamour of Desire with it's reflex action on the physical body. This leads to constant fighting and turmoil. It negates all peace and fruitful work and must some day be brought to an end. 9. The Glamour of Personal Ambition. There are many other glamours, both individual and worldwide, but these will serve to indicate a general tendency…. A deep distrust of one's reactions to life and circumstances, when such reactions awaken and call forth criticism, separativeness and pride, is of value. These qualities are definitely breeders of glamour. They are occultly “the glamorous characteristics”. Ponder on this. If a man can free himself from these characteristics, he is well on the way to the relinquishing and dissipation of all glamour. I am choosing my words with care in an effort to arrest your attention. www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?lookup=Perseus:image:1990.36.0049&image=1

Subject: Re: Some thoughts for Dep, and others ... From: nfm To: cq 'GNOTHI SEAUTON' Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:04:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The body depicted in the above post has many similarities to the body that I have and many persons have. I would however not say that the mind of the person who posed for this statue does, for that would be an assumption, a conjecture, I could not make. I know that even a simple thing like, writing in the first person, was not used until St. Augustine, so clearly the mind has changed greatly over the centuries. Even such a simple thing as a zero would most likely not have been known to the person who posed for this statue. I would submit that what ever version of 'Knowing thy self' one wishes to talk about, to be important to me, it must incorporate the same level of universality as does the depiction of this body contain. What ever practice might help me in the endeavor of 'Knowing my self' must also incorporate that level of universality, if it is to truly address the question of 'why' my mortality. This should be clear to anyone, for mortality is most clearly related to my body. The 'Practice' you disdain so fits these requirements and my expectation. The universality of this 'Practice' has been noted in the orthodoxy of expremie.com, of course as an observation about 'Maharaji's' lack of originality, but noted none the less. I must note that in some areas, like the body, originality may not be very important. It is fortunate that the person who posted this did not use some Indian depiction of Krishna or Gonash for they would have had four arms each containing some item, of interest to historians, if not to the persons who post in this group. I do not have four arms nor have I ever seen a person with four arms yet I am still interested in why these ancient statues have four arms. I wonder if any one might know the answer to the riddle of four arms, who posts to this site? I hate to burden you with this for I do realize that you probably don't care, however it does not require a response if in your ocean of not caring you would find this a burden. NFM

Subject: Arms and the man (!) From: cq To: nfm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:43:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The image in my post above was that of the God Apollo. Whether a life-model was used in its creation, I don't know. The image here is of Kali: The link above contains the following explanation of her four arms, (though bear in mind that a great many of the Hindu pantheon share the same attributes - all except Krishna, who I've never seen represented as having any more than the standard issue of 2). Kali's four arms represent the complete circle of creation and destruction, which is contained within her. She represents the inherent creative and destructive rhythms of the cosmos. Her right hands, making the mudras of 'fear not' and conferring boons, represent the creative aspect of Kali, while the left hands, holding a bloodied sword and a severed head represent her destructive aspect. The bloodied sword and severed head symbolize the destruction of ignorance and the dawning of knowledge. The sword is the sword of knowledge, that cuts the knots of ignorance and destroys false consciousness (the severed head). Kali opens the gates of freedom with this sword, having cut the eight bonds that bind human beings. Finally her three eyes represent the sun, moon, and fire, with which she is able to observe the three modes of time: past, present and future. This attribute is also the origin of the name Kali, which is the feminine form of 'Kala', the Sanskrit term for Time. Another symbolic but controversial aspect of Kali is her proximity to the cremation ground: O Kali, Thou art fond of cremation grounds; so I have turned my heart into one That thou, a resident of cremation grounds, may dance there unceasingly. O Mother! I have no other fond desire in my heart; fire of a funeral pyre is burning there; O Mother! I have preserved the ashes of dead bodies all around that Thou may come. O Mother! Keeping Shiva, conqueror of Death, under Thy feet, Come, dancing to the tune of music; Prasada waits With his eyes closed ... Ramprasad (1718-75) More info on other multi-limbed deities here: Brahma: http://ikashmir.org/Gods/God12.html Durga: (who has 18 arms!) http://ikashmir.org/Gods/God1.html PS What was that about "my ocean of uncaring?" Kali in Hindu mythology www.hindupaintings.com/kali.htm www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/db09.jpg

Subject: does that help explain? From: fore -warned is fore-armed To: nfm Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:35:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: janet, being a smartass with a hint of truth. we are all about being fore/four armed, here. why, look right down there just above your wrists! there they are! your forearms! see? you have been fore -armed all along.

Subject: Lila and money From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:18:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking, it's funny that whenever Maharaji changes anything, like getting married unexpectedly, or deciding to call mahatmas initiators, then instructors, or closing ashrams, then re-opening them, then closing them again, or DUO, then no DUO, or premies not giving satsang any more, or instructors not giving Knowledge any more, or gratitude instead of devotion......the list is truly endless. The point being, that whenever Maharaji changes one of these things, premies gulp (or not) and think 'Maharaji's lila' (1972-1982) or 'Wow! Another beautiful change!' These changes, some of which have been quite radical, tend to be interpreted by premies as 'forcing us to abandon our concepts and remaining open to each moment as it comes', or 'Maharaji refusing to be kept in a box' - whatever. The interpretations are also endless. One thing springs to mind, however - the one thing he has never played around with or changed in any way: the acquisition and maintaining of his fabulous wealth. You only have to consider it for a moment to see what a dichotemy there is here. Why has Maharaji never abandoned this fabulous wealth? He could go on and acquire it all over again, but why has he never abandoned it, not even once? When he has played around with every other single thing in his world? Can any premie here come up with a convincing explanation for this? Livia

Subject: Re: Lila and money From: premie To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:36:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Uh , well ,its like you see umm.I don't know what to say really but you know it's like it's sort of like all about love you know like ... that most beautiful experience and well... what was the question you asked ?

Subject: To LIV re:Lila and money From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:48:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' yeah because he really is the lord and he owns it all anyway, it's just an illusion that you actually give anything, it's his grace that he allows you to express your love in such a personal way; plus there is of course the exclusivity of major donor events for the glitterati......' I thought you knew this? (upper case optional where applicable)

Subject: A Hieroglyph... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:14:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'EIMDHIWNAMM' Even In My Darkest Hour I Will Never Abandon My Money Even though it should read ' Your Money! '

Subject: Other Forums From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Other Forums The Anything Goes Forum is a forum to talk about anything you like. It is completely uncensored and can be a wild and bizarre place at times but also funny. The Symposium is a forum for discussing things like politics and the Universe. It is very occasionally moderated. The Premie Forum Is also called ''Life is Great''. This forum is for premies but other people join in.

Subject: A useful tip From: JohnT To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 08:40:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you miss the off-topic chat or inspired lunacy of the Other Forums just bookmark Anything Goes or the Symposium instead of Forum 7. Both Anything Goes and the Symposium carry a good set of links, including to each other and to here. So once you've checked them out, continuing on to here is easy. JohnT - never a premie

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:58:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what happened to the links that used to be at the top of this page? I assigned one f key to this forum and counted on coming here to be able to get right over to the other two when i was done reading here. now they're gone, and I have to go thru all this laborious file riffling to get to my links to the other two pages. is thater a reason the nks were taken out of the header to forum 7??? janet just wondering.

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:59:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, if you're ever stuck in that position again (oooh, sounds painful ;)), you could always click on the EPO link at the top of this Forum, then scroll down the homepage of EPO to 'Forums' and click on the link to the Symposium from there. (thinks ... but I never wanted to be traffic cop, honest).

Subject: Re: Other Forums-yeah! From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:48:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your links don't work, Dave!

Subject: Try these then From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:28:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The links work on my computer and seemingly on everyone elses. I see you're using Windoze 95 and maybe that's why they don't work since they are supposed to open in a new window. Other Forums The Anything Goes Forum is a forum to talk about anything you like. It is completely uncensored and can be a wild and bizarre place at times but also funny. The Symposium is a forum for discussing things like politics and the Universe. It is very occasionally moderated. The Premie Forum Is also called ''Life is Great''. This forum is for premies but other people join in.

Subject: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:31:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are two paragraphs from the introduction to the ''interview'' with Rev Rawat in LEADERS mag. PDF prevents copying and pasting so you have to type it out. Sorry, I can't be bothered to type anymore. People who practice self-knowledge say that it is precious, and yet Maharaji does not charge for it. When asked why, he explains that he has never seen helping people gain self-knowledge as a commercial undertaking. Far from ''selling'' self-knowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone. He cautions that people must choose it freely, be ready for it, and pursue it without obligation. ''This is not for sale,'' he explains. ''It is a gift, in the truest tradition of a gift.'' His work is supported entirely by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. Over the years, Maharaji appears to have become more passionate about his work. Despite the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge, he seems indifferent to fame and has avoided the celebrity circuit frequented by so many others who seek to gain adherents. Others who represent themselves as ''self-help'' gurus tend to achieve popularity by focusing on what people could have or do to achieve external success. Maharaji makes it clear that self-knowledge will not make you a movie star or a CEO, nor will it make you rich or improve your golf game. It may, however bring you the fulfillment that these things alone cannot provide. I won't comment on the truly clumsy writing style or the irritating misuse of commas but a few things really jump out. No mention (since he does not charge for his product) of how he came to make his millions. ''Far from selling self-knowledge, Maharaji even concedes that it may not be appropriate for everyone.'' Right, so only the chosen few will ever have ''self-knowledge.'' I guess the rest of us have to walk around thinking we're someone else. As for ''...the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge...:'' Well, I guess after 2 million years of not knowing who the fuck we were, human beings finally are interested in finding out who they are - well, actually only a growing number of working-class Hindus are interested which fact Rawat forgot to mention. The rest of us seem quite contented to walk around all day long asking our co-workers and family members, ''Who am I?'' But I guess movie stars, CEOs and golfers really do need self-knowledge since the article is aimed at these super-rich folks. Movie stars I can understand. They have to play so many different characters that I'm sure they sometimes forget who they are and have to have a Hindu guru tell them. CEOs - maybe - they're putting on an act most of the time too and probably need Rawat to remind them who they really are. But duffers? Don't they know who they are? Maybe Rawat is talking about golfers in Palm Springs - you know like Bob Hope, ancient and suffering from senile dementia or Alzheimers. Yes, I guess they sometimes need to be told who they are. My guess is that this article was negotiated to co-incide with the debut of the Prem Rawat Foundation and a copy was submitted to the IRS as proof of Rev Rawat's ''bona fides.'' It is also an interesting co-incidence that EPO was hacked and put off-line round about the time this article was being submitted to LEADERS mag for publication. It also seems to be aimed at premies (via the PRF site) perhaps to further re-inforce the cult revisionism and to boost flagging morale among those who are beginning to waver. It's basically a reaction to EPO.

Subject: Re: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: Jennifer To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe ex-premies can innundate LEADERS magazine with 'Letters to the Editor' about the Maharaji article. If they are a legit publication, they will print a few of them in their next issue.

Subject: Don't Bother From: Marshall To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:53:56 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: That's a very good idea Jennifer except Leader's Magazine doesn't have a Letters to the Editor section! Great mag huh?

Subject: The Self Knowledge Song From: Sir Dave :p To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:19:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stick yer fingers in yer eyes And say hooray. Stick yer fingers in yer ears And say today. Breathe for fifteen minutes dreaming Of the Maha on a swing, Lick your hard palette some more And you're OK. Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee Eye eye yippee, The Maha's built a castle In the sky.

Subject: Self Knowledge Song - revised version From: Sir Dave :p To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:08:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stick yer fingers in yer eyes And say hooray. Stick yer fingers in yer ears No not that way. Breathe for fifteen minutes dreaming Of the Maha on a swing, Lick your hard palette some more Call it a day. Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee yippee eye Singin' eye eye yippee Eye eye yippee, The Maha's built a castle In the sky.

Subject: I preferred the first version :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Sir Dave :p Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 14:28:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I preferred the first version :C) From: Jasmine To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:20:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the first version is a bit better than the second one too! Jasmine (David's daughter)

Subject: Hi, Jasmine, from 6,000 miles away. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jasmine Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:31:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Jasmine, from 6,001 miles away. :) From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:57:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any daughter of David's must be a great person. I'm sure you'll agree. :)

Subject: Who is PatC? From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:36:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for ''...the growing number of people with a keen interest in self-knowledge...:'' Well, I guess after 2 million years of not knowing who the fuck we were, human beings finally are interested in finding out who they are - well, actually only a growing number of working-class Hindus are interested which fact Rawat forgot to mention. The rest of us seem quite contented to walk around all day long asking our co-workers and family members, ''Who am I?'' PatC, when someone askes who you are do you take out your wallet and show them some ID? Is that who you are? =)

Subject: Here's who he is From: Sir Dave To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:05:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC is a vast collection of experiences which bundled all together, make a unique individual. When PatC dies, he'll go off to the big restaurant in the sky where he'll rejoin his dogs and old friends and they'll talk about their lives on Earth. Maybe next, he'll invent a new recipe there, which will be enjoyed by all (especially the dogs).

Subject: Re: Here's who he is? From: Dep =) To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:48:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God forbid Sir Dave, but what if PatC got amnesia? Would he cease to exist?

Subject: Re: Here's who he is? From: Can't remember To: Dep =) Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 07:10:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No From: Sir Dave To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:25:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but that would be one of his experiences - forgetting everything. He'd remember it all in the end. Who we are is enhanced by this world. Who we are is added to, by our being here. But I doubt that you believe that, so you can forget it.

Subject: Re: No From: Dep To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:51:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but that would be one of his experiences - forgetting everything. He'd remember it all in the end. Who we are is enhanced by this world. Who we are is added to, by our being here. But I doubt that you believe that, so you can forget it. --- Maybe there is not end to remember it all. Let's not be superstitious here. Let's just use what we know. I've had this argument many time with Jim. Perhaps I'm not expressing myself well and making too many assumptions. But my goal is not to turn everthing into a big nothing. Otherwise I'd just go out and get a lobotomy. I say it's good to use your mind and your heart. To be intellectual and be spiritual. Use the accelerator and the brake. Have as many options open as possible. Be felxible. Use all of ourselves. Not to just stay down in the safe little corner of ourselves but to open ourselves to all that we can. To develop our minds our spirit and our bodies. Would people in touch with all aspects of themselves be more likely to be elegant, and well-balanced, and enhance this world? I'm not asking you to throw out your mind. You need your mind, but not all the time. I don't want to discuss this anymore.

Subject: I hope that was meant to be a silly haha question? From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:24:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep said: ''PatC, when someone askes who you are do you take out your wallet and show them some ID? Is that who you are?'' Of course I have to show people who don't know me my ID. I mean people like traffic cops, bank tellers etc but not for people who know me. If anyone sticks around for a while they'll get to know who I am. I guarantee it. I'm not shy. In fact I'm as easily read as an open book.:C) Of course some people never get to know me because they don't have the nimbleness and stamina to keep up with me or they aren't interested and don't like me. But I'm sure you were being facetious as you were with the last joke you made. Because you sure as hell know that I don't believe in some other secret inner me. b) I'm just me through and through. And there's only one of me as there is only one of you. Unless of course you are suggesting that we are the Akashic Borg or all one in some invisible nothingness. Hoo boy! You have got religion bad if you think that. Eek, sweetheart, I'm unique. So are you. How can any dumb thoughts of old dead socalled saints and other assorted fakirs have anything to do with who I am?:) Sounds like you need a Caribbean vacation, lots of massages, fine wine, some sloppy sensuous sex and good food to get you back down to earth. Did I use enough emotikons? I like them. ;) You know I wish you well but you're awfully unimaginative and a bit cowardly the way you clutch at straws that are water-logged because they have been floating around for so long. Isn't it time for you to go where no man has been before - on your own journey, alone, without all the baggage of old concepts and using your own map not the ideas of long dead fakirs?

Subject: Spot on Pat. nt From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:35:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Excerpts from the LEADER article From: NFM To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:55:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Know thy self' The question has been asked by all intelligent persons, looking at their mortality. Why? People who can not introspect are like animals they have few problems but they are ignorant. Maybe ignorance is bliss but it is not my way. Best Wishes to all. nfm

Subject: Huh? What? From: Tonette To: NFM Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:15:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So let's say a retarded individual, IQ of 60, doesn't stand a chance at 'knowing thyself?' Wouldn't classify them as intelligent now could you? Wrong. My brother was retarded but knowing what he was about was not one of his handicaps. What is the recurring fascination associated with Ralwat and his message that centers on the fact of our mortality. Impending gloom and doom. We are all going to die. Yikes! Oh no! Lions and tigers and bears. Can you at least look at this way of perspecting your life and existance and see how disfunctional this is? How damaging to your outlook and your time here and now on the Earth? Please just a peak. Don't you walk around feeling sort of anxious not to mention futile, operating through that lens? Have you ever met a person who can not introspect? Come on now. In fact, I would say such a person doesn't exist. Now that you mention it, when M introspects I'm sure he realizes exactly where he has been and what more he wants to accompolish. Now that's some food for thought. Frankly, I found your post offensive, simplistic and lacking in depth and honesty. It's as if you think you have something to say but in actuality there's nothing there. 'Ignorance is bliss but that's not how you operate,' How do you operate? Focusing on your mortality? You haven't been able to answer the 'Why?' question yet? How old are you? Sounds like I'm reading the script of a wayward, confused adolescent male. What to formulate that little ditto into English? 'People who can not introspect are like animals.' Conversly, introspection causes problems. Obviously the way you do does. I doubt if I will get a reply from you but I will welcome one if you choose to and are still reading here on the forum. Tonette

Subject: I know who I am From: janet To: NFM Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:00:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: would it knock you over to find out that there are a hell of a lot of people who are never troubled by wondering who they are? I have known who I am from minute number one. always had it, always will. maharaji never showed me who i am. for that matter he went out of his way to be sure i didnt find out who he was, either. but -whoopsee--i found out in spite of him. much to his dislike. he is no 'Master of Self -Knowledge. Not of Me and My Self, nor of You and Your Self, nor of He and His Own Self. You want to know yourself? Get into therapy. Join a 12 step group. go skydiving. take LSD have children and raise them. face a terminal illness. get really and truly lost in a landscape you don't know, where you don't speak the language. have a nervous breakdown and live to tell about it. survive a war. there. any one of those ought to keep you busy getting deeply and unshakeably, irrevocably better acquainted with yourself for a good long time. and with everyone else around you, as well. go ahead and pick one and get to it. let us know how it turned out.

Subject: Know thyself? See above response to Dep [nt] From: PatC To: NFM Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A Charmingly packaged Spiritual Path From: Lesley To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:15:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for the Wealthy Hi Pat, I can imagine Prem Rawat brushes up quite attractively for CEOs. What a convenient philosophy ... if you are not feeling good about yourself, don't look at what you're doing, just meditate, and, when the worries get too much, subjugate yourself to Prem, and you'll feel just fine again. And then, what a compatible Spiritual Leader Prem is, a match made in heaven indeed. Mr Rawat's past history as Guru Maharaj Ji; his video'd flocks of prayerful Indians, enthusiastic Africans, and transported Westerners; even his Krishna costume, holi gun and darshan lines, all become entertaining wallpaper on his holy path to become the number one apologist, excuse me, I mean 'Spiritual Leader' for the wealthy. My condolences, CEO's, it's a tough job, being at the top, but someone's got to do it, eh, and now you lucky fellows have the wise but charming, kindhearted, playful, lovable Prem to hold your hand. I have been having a bit of a laugh at Captain Rawat's latest flaunting of his very thick hide. I mean, is this where the worm turns, is this where the rich and powerful few get hoist on their own petard and start selfadministering the 'opiate of the masses', is Prem the scented worm in the apple of western civilisation?.... or just another Hindu Guru playing a percentages game. Lol, rgds, Lesley

Subject: to Pat From: AV To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:17:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NOT FOR EVERYBODY???? Then surely not knowledge of the self? What is SELF? in M's terms. I think most would concede that the SELF is universal to all , and therefore it MUST be for everybody, because it already IS everybody for chrissake!!!!!!!! HOWEVER, (a big however...) some new customers may not appreciate the 'hook' that comes with Rawat, that you become drawn into and dependant on his endgame, however you perceive it. Therefore self-knowledge with a 'hook' is not for everyone maybe? But to say that self knowledge per se is not for everybody is like saying oxygen is not for everybody...anyone with two braincells will see that. UNLESS their ego is flattered by the possibilty that THEY are smart enough to partake of the vine, while the dummies are rummageing for scraps in the garbage. In respect of these new customers 'the foundation' is seeking to attract, does anybody know if M is up on say, philosophy , the humanities, the historical development of world religions, gnosticism, mysticism etc.? How would a debate on that level proceed, I wonder?

Subject: Re: to Pat From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I've noticed that too. Maharaji has hinted that Knowledge isn't for everybody more than once over the last few years. The only thing he can possibly mean is that it probably isn't for anybody who can see right through his game at first or second glance. No, it can't be for them, can it? Love, Livia

Subject: not for every body??? From: To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:35:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah , when did that start I wonder, or more to the point, why??? 'this knowledge is for everyone' was fundamental to the whole approach.. maybe for those who got abused, hacked off, dismissed, ignored in crisis, made too vulnerable to say; 'hey, that ain't right, surely..?' sad, but maybe just not for those guys......huh? love AV

Subject: Re: not for every body??? From: Neville To: To Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:55:25 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Well, I guess it wasn't for me. This explains a lot--like why I never experienced one microsecond of anything transcendental while meditating, just incredible, unbelievable boredom. Or maybe I just wasn't doing it right. Neville

Subject: Funny you should say that, From: Tonette To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't have any Earth shattering meditation experiences either. I tried believe me, I did. Zilch, nada, nothing. I did experience bits of sleep, numb forearms, sore floor of mouth, and compressed eyeballs. Does that count? My husband has talked about a few incrediable meditations he's had. Funny how they are so fleeting and can never be summoned at will even though his heart was willing, environment secure, concentration set. And the day after becoming an ex, he has not felt the need nor desire to practice again. That's after 25 years of daily thoughts and tyraids to do just that, meditate. A constant mantra of 'I have to construct my life so I can fit in an hour of maditation.' I'll go simply mad if I don't meditate. Hey, almost sounds like of the five commandments. Constantly reach for that golden ring. Never delay in attending to your experience, and damn everything else, it's not real anyway. Always stay 'in touch' with your Master, have faith. Leave no room for thought in your mind. Oh what was the last one, never put off for tomorrow what you can do today, because you're going to die, maybe today, or tomorrow, but soon and by golly, you just have to trot on down to the post office to buy stamps to put on the envelope so you can send that check of gratitude to The Master. I have seen light. Not while doing the techniques. And the big deal is? Frankly I think the whole scheme is people believing that the hum of their functioning nervous system is something incrediable. Music? Yep, lots of crickets and stuff but you can hear that without plugging your ears. Holy name? Sex is much more deep, literally and figuratively. The love for another goes way beyond the expansion and contraction of one's thorax and the passage of air thru the respiratory system. Nectar, give me a break! The pineal gland does not connect to the pharynx. And unless you're a reptile, has no association with anything higher than a gland. Your saliva for instance is made by a gland. So, you're not alone Neville. And unless you are a retard, which you are not obviously, how could you not do it right? Unless of course, you weren't doing enough satsang and service congruently. That must of been the problem, you bad; in your mind; premie you. That's okay, you can come to hear M anyway and don't forget to participate, ie, money, free labor. Yes you, you low life form, can bask in the presence of the LIVING PERFECT MASTER! You were so lucky! And you helped make M so very happy. In fact, he's still laughing, all the way to the bank! Anyway, I'm just posting and typing and I too am laughing. Kind Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: Funny you should say that, From: Neville To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:32:59 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Right--the hum of the nervous system that John Cage heard when they stuck him in an anechoic chamber for a few minutes. M's real trick was psychological--we wound up hypnotising ourselves into thinking we were experiencing something. Like if 51% of an ashram walk around with blissed-out smiles it soon becomes 100%. Call me cynical, but... Neville

Subject: No, I'd call you realistic From: Tonette To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:55:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You seem not cynical with all the bitterness and negativity that that term implies. Rather I see you as observing reality. And that word anechoic, thanks, had to look it up (blush) because I had never heard it before. Reminds me of a scene from the movie Altered States made years ago, 1980 or so. William Hurt takes acid and enters a shallow water filled anechoic chamber. He transforms into something that is not quite human. Intriguing movie but it bothered me for some time. Gave me nightmares as a matter of fact. Do I see a connection here? Anechoic, free from reverberations, echos. Could one equate that with****? Meditation, a self imposed internal anechoic state. Altered States, a movie portraying the results of an anechoic chamber. No wonder I had nighmares! And yes, by far, the biggest gripe I have with M is the psychological rape he deliverd so expertly. He has yet to blink an eye. Take care, Tonette

Subject: Hey Cynical... From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:08:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Neville, We haven't met--I've been away for a couple of weeks--long story--don't ask:) Brainwashing or cult programming (chose your flavor) seems very similar to hypnosis. In literature about cults that I've read as well as information on many anti-cult websites the after affects of leaving a cult, especially a personality and meditation cults, frequently leave new exiters feeling as if they are in a trance like state. Many people have reported having that feeling. Both those in the reading I've done and right here on F7. Too bad for us that it was an hynosis that lasted years! Btw, I'm Cynthia Gracie and I live in Vermont. I was born and raised in Connecticut and first hooked up with the cult in 1975 in Hartford. Best to you, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:57:43 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Hi Cynthia, I didn't mean literal hypnosis. I was putting forward my conviction that we fooled ourselves (and that this is self-reinforcing when you have a community doing it). I once had the misfortune to encounter a professional con man. He worked by finding out what people wanted, then promising it, and greed would do the rest--blind them to his BS. Charlatan Ji works the same way, by promising what we want--sadly, we all want a little meaning in our lives. In many senses, we created him, created his myth because we wanted so badly for it to be true. I think I had an unusual exit from DLM (this was '75). True, when the foundation of you life is snatched away, you are likely to feel somewhat empty. For me, though, it was a glorious freedom from the accumulating insanity around me. I still wake up mornings glad to be out of it. Neville, UK

Subject: Re: not for every body??? From: Livia To: To Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:50:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that's right. Very odd, the more you think about it. If it's the Knowledge of the self, and it's inside everybody just waiting to be discovered, how can it possibly not be for everybody? Unless it's only for the people who are capable of suspending all disbelief as they watch video after video in the process of waiting... Hey! Maybe that's why he's started talking about belief! Belief is relief! Funny, that, too. When I first received Knowledge, one of the things that first attracted me was the way he talked about Knowledge being an experience and there being no need whatsoever for belief. It was this that for me differentiated Knowledge from a religion. Now it's all about belief and Knowledge not being for eveybody. Well, waddayaknow!!! Love, Livia

Subject: To LIVIA Re;SELF From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:41:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also Liv, that thing about ' if you are a Christian it will make you a perfect Christian, if you are a Buddhist....da...da...da' In other words; A UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH (IMPLIED...OF GOD WITHIN) WHICH TRANSCENDS ALL BOUNDARIES OF RACE, CLASS AND CREED. Why would you buy into anything less if you were a sincere seeker of truth? Today, EV / M seem to have difficulty being truthful about their own past statements, actions and policies; not a very happy state of affairs is it? Ooops , there I go whingeing when I could be getting my life together....... LOVE AV

Subject: Re: To LIVIA Re;SELF From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:58:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whinge, whinge, whinge, that's all we ever seem to do these days when we could be having such a great time experience gratitude and telling it like it is NOW!!! in 2002, not how it was in 1972, or 1982 or 1992.....or even 2001 for that matter - or even last week!!! After all, the nature of truth is that it is an ever-changing phenomenon, well, in Maharji's world anyway! Lots of love to you, Liv

Subject: Rev rawat is just being his usual flakey self From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:36:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's been surrounded by sycophants since he was a toddler. He is trapped in a make-believe world. He has always liked play-acting the part of the CEO. This is just another scene in his movie where he gets to be read by the 35,000 most influential people on earth. The smartest LEADERS readers will immediately recognise Rawat's nudge-nudge-wink-wink spchiel and simply dismiss him as another of the New Paradigm corporate consultants and ''inpsirational speakers.'' He is finally in his right milieu. He may still have a career giving self-knowledge to the leaders of the New Paradigm corporate world. I just knew he wasn't mensch 30 years ago. He's a phoney, game-playing braggard and bluffer and fits right in with the other hucksters of the corporate culture. You said: ''....to say that self knowledge per se is not for everybody is like saying oxygen is not for everybody...'' Yep! He should rather have come up with a better name for his ''product'' because ''self-knowledge'' is a little too easy to parody. Maybe he should have called it ''nothing.'' I hope you're feeling tougher and more cheery today.

Subject: Re: Rev rawat is just being his usual flakey self From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 22:50:39 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: You cracked me up!!! When I brought my wife to see Maharaj Ji in Miami guess about 7 years ago she said ' that was a lot about nothing' and I dont think we were watching Sienfeld Yet either.

Subject: to pat c From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cheers, yes a bit tougher, we all have our ups and downs; I don't like the bad downs tho' tx for support...I shall wear it aiways!

Subject: Well, I was feeling awfully blue too From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:33:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last week I went through this withdrawal symptom that I had not had before. I suddenly missed being silly and irresponsible just like our former master. Devil may care, carefree and childish. I used to think being silly was being child-like whatever that may mean. Well, there's no lasting peace of mind in being silly but there is in being honest which is what I think a child-like heart really means. I feel much more at peace with myself now that I am no longer associated with someone of whom I was ashamed and embarassed.

Subject: Hey, blues brothers, you two From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:08:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't been following your conversation nor the forum for that matter and this may be totally stupid but I'll tell you a story that might make you chuckle. I warn you it's stupid but here goes, Okay here I am sitting in a Motel 6 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Gone are the nightly 4 course dinners, gone is the private room, gone is the sweet smell of the ocean since this particular motel has just had a major sewage backup and the windows do not open. My husband has just brought back a $4 bottle of Pinot Noir wine with the accompanying 69 cent ergonically incorrect cork screw. Well, times are tough and now is the time to open that bottle and 'get back to that place.' Hell, M's not real, thank God that we still have wine! So the corkscrew is employed gently but determinely to the bottle. One twist, two twists, and damn the thing just broke off in my hand, leaving me with the blue plastic piece and the steel 'pigs tail' embedded in said cork. Why or why did he not buy a screw top bottle of wine? Because we have class. After all we are in a Motel 6 located off beautiful Interstate 95. So what to do. Not drinking the wine is not an option. I'll swim thru the coldest waters to experience 'that place, that experience.' Do I have my swiss army knife? Nope, airports don't like knives anymore and I didn't risk having to give that up! I know, the solution is so simple, so easy. So while wearing my white top and white shorts with my daughter looking on expectantly, I push the cork down. Ah, what a fine pop, what a fine year, and what a fine spray of red wine all over me. Geez, brought back memories of Holy festival. And certainly elicited that response in my daughter and I. Yes life is sweet and thankfully the wine was fruity and slightly dry and extremely sweet. Cheers you two! Tonette

Subject: And cheers to you too, Tonette :) [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:46:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Self-knowledge wont' make you rich... From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:08:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but if you sign on, it will make him rich !

Subject: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:00:34 (EDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi all. I'm away from the Forum but someone emailed me about the 'Leaders' article, in which Maharaji is 'interviewed.' I just wanted to point out one thing after taking a look at the portion of the article on the Prem website. Richard Cooper is highlighted in the article as a 'Senior Vice President' of Grubb & Ellis as the kind of CEO-type that Maharaji wants to exploit to demonstrate how together his 'students" are. I just have a couple of comments. First, not to take anything away from Richard Cooper, but Grubb & Ellis probably has hundreds, if not thousands of 'Vice Presidents' and I'm sure they also have hundreds of 'senior vice presidents.' So, it's not like Richard is running the company, and he isn't even running the Miami office, not by any means. It's a company made up of real estate agents, mostly in commercial property. Kudos to Richard, however, for being successful in his career. Second, Richard Cooper was known as 'Coops' back in the 70s and 80s in the Maharaji cult. Sometime in the 70s, Richard's parents had him kidnapped and attempted to have him deprogrammed -- I'm not sure if it was by Ted Patrick or somebody else. I think shortly after he was kidnapped old Coops escaped from the deprogrammers and his parents by jumping out of a window and breaking his leg in the process. [This was a notorious story told in satsang and Richard's devotional courage was greatly admired.] I recall Coops with a cast on his leg in the late 70s or early 80s in Miami, and there was some effort to keep his location confidential, lest his parents, who apparently were not impressed by what 'self-knowledge' was doing for him, would try it again. Note that Coops does not mention this incident in his 30-year career with 'self knowledge.' Just thought you would like to know.....

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Livia To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:27:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You don't mean Dick Cooper who used to be National Co-Ordinator in England around the early 80's? I think he was Australian. Or am I way off beam here? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Moll of Mole To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:52:38 (EDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: Livia, There are two Richard Coopers, one is Dic Cooper (rjc) an Australian who was the national coordinator in England in the early 80,s and now lives back in Australia. He’s a great guy and I loved him heaps. The other is Richard Cooper who is from Miami and is the one that would be mentioned in the article. I know Richard a little and he is also pretty cool kinda guy..................from a woman’s point of view that is, nothing to do with his guruness. Moll of Mole

Subject: Richard Cooper (the American) From: Joe To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:08:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I believe Richard was originally from Connecticut, and was I think in Denver for awhile. He was in Miami in the early 80s, and apparently still lives there now.

Subject: Re: Leaders Article -- Richard Cooper From: Livia To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:22:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Moll, Thanks for clearing up the confusion. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: -Richard Cooper From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:02:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recall Richard Cooper as a really nice down to earth kid of guy. Glad his career has continued to grow. Interesting he attributes his success to M&K. I suppose I would have happily done the same a few years ago. I was wondering where you've been, Joe. Thought TPRF and Leaders article had pursueded you to return to the Lotus Tootsies. ;)

Subject: New page on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EV PR Team report on EPO and the Forum, and the damage this might do to his work ! Thanks to all for your synchronized work, including Glen and Ros !!

Subject: Nice work J-M From: gerry To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:12:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very nice layout, well organized with pertinent links. Quite professional and may I say, quite damning as well! Of course, now you've got a huge job ahead of you reporting on the demise of EV and the birth of "The Foundation." (Don't you just know that's what all the pwsk's are calling it.) It's not easy keeping up such a busy whirlwind as our Lard.

Subject: Help with Spanish Required From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:59:13 (EDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: As most of you have probably noticed, www.ex-premie.org has some Spanish pages (as well as Jean-Michel's extensive French pages), but unfortunately, they haven't been updated for some time. Also, I regularly receive emails in Spanish, and I need help in translating, and replying to them. If anyone is willing to put in some time to help with this, it would be very much appreciated. The minimum I require at the moment is helping with the emails, but much more can be done. Extensive propagation was done in Spanish speaking countries, and these people have the right to know the truth about Maharaji. Anyone who can help, please email me. John.

Subject: Re: Help with Spanish Required From: salsa To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:25:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: count on me. i have some time. Email me. silvia

Subject: Have I got the wrong email address? From: JHB To: salsa Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:25:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silvia, I have emailed you with requests for help and you haven't replied. That's why I'm asking here. Send me your address, and we'll try again. John.

Subject: 1979 radio interview with Bob Mishler From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:40:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn’t it ironic that the non-devotional 'Self Knowledge' route that Mr. Rawat is now taking was first implemented by Bob Mishler in late 1975? Too bad Mr. Rawat didn’t accept Mishler’s advice way back then. If he had, he would have saved us all a lot of trouble. =)

Subject: How do you get past the mind, though? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 21:35:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See, the problem with that approach is that it still requires complete abdication of critical thinking. You know the thing that insists you get some good, concrete answers to important fundamental questions? Questions like: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know? Any attempt to sidestep these issues is as insulting to one's intelligence as joining the cult in the first place. And no, 'try it, you'll like it' is not an acceptable alternative to real answers. Mind you, I don't expect someone like you to understand that.

Subject: Re: How do you get past the mind, though? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:44:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Four meditation/yoga techniques? 2) Where does it come from? The techniques or the experience? I believe the techniques come from India and the experience comes from Tierra del Fuego. 3) How do you know? Let's just say a little bird told me.

Subject: Why would I expect anything more from a cartoon? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:38:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I DARE you to try to answer those questions honestly.

Subject: A cartoon? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:19:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I DARE you to try to answer those questions honestly. --- Okay I'll try to answer those questions honestly and I'll take them on one at a time. See, the problem with that approach is that it still requires complete abdication of critical thinking. You know the thing that insists you get some good, concrete answers to important fundamental questions? What? I have no idea what you are talking about. Questions like: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Same thing as Knowledge, same four techniques, same experience, but with a different name. 2) Where does it come from? The techniques come from India and the experience comes from the person practicing the techniques. Am I missing something here? 3) How do you know? Well the techniques could come from somewhere else, I just assume they come from India. The experience has to come from the person doing the techniques, unless you think you can meditate for someone else. Any attempt to sidestep these issues is as insulting to one's intelligence as joining the cult in the first place. What issues? And no, 'try it, you'll like it' is not an acceptable alternative to real answers. Mind you, I don't expect someone like you to understand that. You want me to explain how the techniques work here? Are those the real answers you are looking for? I don't how they work. I don't how a computer works either but that doesn't stop me from using one. If you do the techniques you benefit from them, if you don't do the techniques you don't benefit from them. That's as honest as I can be. I don't know what you are after here Jim, that's why I posted the brash and impertinent reply above. The past is finished and we can't change it. What's is done is done. Maharaji did not take Mishler's advice and IMO things would have been better if he had.

Subject: You ...just ....can't...do..it, eh? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:57:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, You're missing a gene or something. If you honestly, no bullshit, think those are answers, you're missing something. I don't know if it's basic intelligence, what it is, but, if that's your best, there's really no point us talking. Here, let me show you what I mean. Take your first answer: 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? Same thing as Knowledge, same four techniques, same experience, but with a different name. Now, everyone here knows it's the same thing, Dog. So I don't know what you're trying to prove playing a game like this. Obviously, I'm asking what 'Knowledge' is, no matter what you call it. This is the second time you've side-stepped the question. And people wonder why I have no patience or respect for you! I mean what's your third answer going to be? That it's 'Kriya yoga' or something? What is it? By the way, I'll tell you something else that won't work so please don't even try it -- don't tell me that 'Knowledge is a way to .....' That's also no answer. It still side-steps the pith of the question. Care to try again? Third time: what is 'Knowledge'? ****************************** Second question sees you once again avoiding the issue: 2) Where does it come from? The techniques come from India and the experience comes from the person practicing the techniques. Am I missing something here? Again, we all know the practice apparently originated in India. That's trite. The question 'where does it come from?' is only interesting on a much more fundamental level which is to ask how in the world this fell into the lap of us mere mortals to begin with. If this is the gift of the gods, how did they give it to us? If it's not the gift of the gods, how did we get it? Use your mind, for a change, Dog! Did this come from Santa Claus? Is there such a thing as a God-man, just like Shri Hans used to talk about? See, this all does make sense if you do indeed accept the full on orthodox guru trip as set out in Hans Yog Prakash, as initially taught for a decade or two by Maharaji and as is currently taught by his brother competitor. The problem with trying to take this cute little idea of 'Knowledge' and separating it from that orthodoxy is that it then becomes this completely important ....THING ,,, (oh sorry, that was an Ulfism, those commas like that :)) ... perhaps the most important of all, divorced from all science, all history, all social context.... ... it's like it becomes its own self-perpetuating mind-fuck without the guru. Yes, indeed you're missing something here. You're missing a healthy, inquring mind. ******************************************* 3) How do you know? Well the techniques could come from somewhere else, I just assume they come from India. The experience has to come from the person doing the techniques, unless you think you can meditate for someone else. Well, because you trivialized the second question and didn't really answer it, the third might indeed call for an answer like yours. But if you dealt with the second one properly, the third is fascinating. No, it's not just a matter that it came from India. Dog, can you, even for a thought experiment, pretend that you were a scientist? Or a historian? Imagine how a person who honestly respected their mind -- sorry, no slight intended, I'm just being honest. You don't respect your mind or 'book learning' as you've made abundantly clear -- imagine how you'd deal with these questions in THAT frame of mind?

Subject: Oh well here goes nuthin since he won't From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:31:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: make the effort. 1. It's a state of mind found through many routes that leads to an entranced state, which is absolutely gorgeous, can unify your sense of self, and increase your appreciation of how magical it can be to be alive. Over here the two obvious corollories (sp?) are the psychedelic route, and the sporting route. It requires deep committment, a passion, a high level of concentration, and a high level of relaxation. When it works it leads to enhanced states such as sportsmen and entertainers know as 'being in the zone'. It almost certainly is kicked in by chemicals in the brains, probably the synapse chemicals, almost certainly increased levels of serotonin, but quite likely other chemicals too. These patterns are quite likely to have evolved over long periods of time because evolutionary speaking they have benefits for the species. We enjoy those states when they happen because they are quite addictive, because of thew good feelings they produce. Drugs of choice around the world, when freed from social and more especially religious constraints, mostly favour states that are similar to those sought by raj yoga, taoists, shamans etc but with more humour and less pomposity involved. The different techniques for triggering these states probably evolved over time when people realized they were possible to be experienced by altering the circumstances of ones life. We know that physical exercise, food regimes, can also trigger similar states, as can falling in love.

Subject: Re: Oh well here goes nuthin since he won't From: Dep =) To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:58:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: make the effort. 1. It's a state of mind found through many routes that leads to an entranced state, which is absolutely gorgeous, can unify your sense of self, and increase your appreciation of how magical it can be to be alive. Over here the two obvious corollories (sp?) are the psychedelic route, and the sporting route. It requires deep committment, a passion, a high level of concentration, and a high level of relaxation. When it works it leads to enhanced states such as sportsmen and entertainers know as 'being in the zone'. It almost certainly is kicked in by chemicals in the brains, probably the synapse chemicals, almost certainly increased levels of serotonin, but quite likely other chemicals too. These patterns are quite likely to have evolved over long periods of time because evolutionary speaking they have benefits for the species. We enjoy those states when they happen because they are quite addictive, because of thew good feelings they produce. Drugs of choice around the world, when freed from social and more especially religious constraints, mostly favour states that are similar to those sought by raj yoga, taoists, shamans etc but with more humour and less pomposity involved. The different techniques for triggering these states probably evolved over time when people realized they were possible to be experienced by altering the circumstances of ones life. We know that physical exercise, food regimes, can also trigger similar states, as can falling in love. --- What is Knowledge? The Knowledge I was referring to is four meditation techniques, revealed by one person to another, that can lead you to the state you so well describe above. Does that satisfy you hamzen?

Subject: Re: You ...just ....can't...do..it, eh? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:45:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since you don't like my answers, why don't you answer these three questions then. You will obviously prefer your answers to mine. Go ahead! 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know?

Subject: No problem From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:24:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since you don't like my answers, why don't you answer these three questions then. You will obviously prefer your answers to mine. Go ahead! 1) What exactly is this thing you're calling 'self-knowledge'? 2) Where does it come from? 3) How do you know? --- 1) A set of meditation techniques purported to trigger a direct experience of God. Because God's God, the meditation techniques purportedly only render the experience with God's knowledge and consent. Because the meditator is himself supposedly a manifestation of God, the experience supposedly reveals that 'true nature' to the meditator in an experience of nirvana or samadhi wherein, again only if God consents, he transcends identification with his illusory separate self and 'awakens' or reidentifies with God. This is called 'God realization'. All of this is pre-scientific and, in fact, wrong. What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it. 2) Beats me. I don't know where or how people first thought this up but it's obviously superstition as nothing about it comports with the real world. 3) Science and common sense. But, remember, and this is the key thing. I'm not a proponent of this thing, you are. I don't need to know what it is or how it got here. You do. The world's full of superstitious beliefs and practices. This is just another. If you want it to be more you have to explain it and, if you're tossing the guru out the window, then you need something to replace it. That was my original point. Talking about Knowledge without guru is like talking about prayer without God. It makes no sense.

Subject: Re: No problem From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:07:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. Agreed! There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is a path in the sense that things happen or develop in time. Learning to play hockey or do anything is a path. Enlightenment could mean simply getting used to the peace of having a mind turned away from its regular activities. God realization depends on what you call God. Some say God is a transcendent state of peace and harmony. Some say God is a paranoid guy with a beard, who lives in the sky. How do I know? Through direct experience of that state! Now talking about bizarre superstitious claptrap what's this 'if you're tossing the guru out the window, then you need something to replace it.' What???? How about a state of clarity where the mind turns away from its regular activities? How about clarity, emptiness, wiping the slate clean. Way back in 1974 I joined a group that did meditation, not a personality cult. you say, 'Talking about Knowledge without guru is like talking about prayer without God. It makes no sense.' I say that makes no sense. You are confusing meditation with idol-worship. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it.

Subject: answers Jim Heller From: Albert Einstein To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:11:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Albert Einstein - ''There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is.' 'My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.' 'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.' 'We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.' 'The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.' Jim Heller - ' All of this is pre-scientific and, in fact, wrong. What 'Knowledge' really is is just a grab bag of meditation techniques that allow one to turn the mind away from its regular activities. There is no path, no enlightenment, no God-realization. There is nothing 'noble' or 'sacred' about the experience. That's all superstition. It's akin to a mental massage and that's about it. 2) Beats me. I don't know where or how people first thought this up but it's obviously superstition as nothing about it comports with the real world. 3) Science and common sense.' It strikes me that old Al (who was known in his day as a fair-to-middlin' scientist) wouldn't be overly impressed with Mr. Heller and his tiny outlook, blowhard methodology and flaccid perspective on life.

Subject: Re: Big problem(for Dep Dog) From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:07:53 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hahahahahahahahahahahaha lolololololol Thanks for the laughs Jim(and dep dog) Tonite forum 7 is a real gas, with calif guy down below and dep dog up top. This is too much. ciao

Subject: For fuck sake dep From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:23:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You haven't truly understood zen one iota have you, I seriously think you've been a jabbering premie for WAY TOO long, somebody ought to tape your mouth up for a cuppla months and you'd learn the biggest lesson of your life. I know what your talking about, know where you're coming from and you give that space a really bad rep. OK so you feel a bit exposed and vulnerable about it all at the mo now you're no longer fully up rawats arse and the instant new age babble he induces so easily, but really. Start chopping some wood or something and get ghrounded, and stop being so scared you're gonna lose the magic that you're defensive around it.

Subject: Re: For fuck sake dep From: Dep To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:45:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You haven't truly understood zen one iota have you, I seriously think you've been a jabbering premie for WAY TOO long, somebody ought to tape your mouth up for a cuppla months and you'd learn the biggest lesson of your life. I know what your talking about, know where you're coming from and you give that space a really bad rep. OK so you feel a bit exposed and vulnerable about it all at the mo now you're no longer fully up rawats arse and the instant new age babble he induces so easily, but really. Start chopping some wood or something and get ghrounded, and stop being so scared you're gonna lose the magic that you're defensive around it. --- Gee thanks Hamzen, I don't understand zen. I'm giving that space a bad rap. I'm feeling exposed and vulnerable. I used to be up Rawat's arse. And I'm defensive because I'm scared I'm going to lose the 'magic.' Has it ever occured to you that maybe Jim's questions make no sense? Please read my reply to him. And I'm not scared I'm going to lose the magic. I gave up hope years ago and it works just fine.

Subject: Re: 1979 radio interview with Bob Mishler From: michael donner To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 19:31:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the rub back in 1975 was all about money. they why things were being presented to m back then included m as basically the head of the church with a salary....with very strict seperation of DLM money and expenses and truely real dedicatons of love in the form of cash to m. all that made m feel very boxed in potentially. now of course, he is indeed independently wealthy and could easily live on his significant investments...thanks in large part to the care michael dettmers took in arranging this for m at m' request/agya. so, its possible that he could even operate the new foundation very legally and with clean separation of funds...and even get a large 'salary' from the foundation...not to mention of course that the foundation will rent the plane and homes for all his trips that are foundtion related....and of course all he ever does is foundation related because that is all he lives for, right. generously giving of himself, his time and total concentration on his work of spreading this knowledge to so many millions each and every year. how many people received knowledge (outside india) in the past years?

Subject: Donner reply From: Foundation for Abi To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:54:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember when it was brought up on the forum about creating a foundation for survivers of cult abuse whereby Abi could have a platform to get her message out as well as, offer some constructive help for other survivers? It was brought up a couple of times and now voila! Maharaji has a 'foundation'.

Subject: Dettmers too.... From: Susan To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 18:34:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: suggested a non devotional approach....the way I recall what he said it sounded like a cross between a retreat and spa for premies/pwk's to rejuvenate. Spa? okay...skip the K review for me. The thing is though, Prem ( do those around him now call him Prem?) has to face his past head on. He just can't Hakuna Matata it. If he is ever to have any credibility, and I say it is just far too late for that, he has to face his critics point by point and make a lot of apologies and explanantions. It will never happen.

Subject: Re: Dettmers too.... From: Marshall To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 20:08:24 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Susan, Who is Hakuna Matata, sounds Hawaiian. Take Care, Marshall

Subject: Lion King Tune From: Tonette To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:10:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Timon to Pumba when they first found Simba half dead in the desert. Hakuna Matata, what a wonderful phrase. Hakuna Matata, ain't no passing craze. It means no worries, for the rest of your days, it's our problem free, philosphy, Hakuna Matata. Pumba sings: When I was a young wart hog, I could clear the savanna after every meal. I'm a sensitive soul, though I seem thick skinned, and it hurt that my friends never stood downwind. And oh the pain, thought of changing my name and I got downhearted every time that I farted. Pumba, not in front of the kids. Oh sorry. Hakuna Matata. No worries, no responsibilities. In many ways exactly how many premies act. Living life with blinders on. Great tune, you should check it out. Written by Alan Menken and Tim Rice. The whole soundtrack is exceptional, my daughter still listens to it. It's an African phrase, although I do not know what country specfically it originates from. Cheers, Tonette

Subject: France Bock From: Mitch Greenberg To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:35:59 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: When I received knowledge in Montreal, 1977 There was a beautiful and innocent angel named France Bock. I was very shy and she would encourage me to spend more time at the Ashram. I witnessed her thru the years, doing service Crying for Maharji Ji etc etc After the closing of the Ashrams I always wondered what would have happened to her. I heard that she was asked to stay at Maharji Ji house to help with the kids, but that something did happen. I thought maybe she saw him as just a person , not the Lord. I do not know if something else happened. Would really help me to know, or find out about France. Thanks www.gemdat.com

Subject: I remember France From: Jim To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:17:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mitch, Sorry things are a little rough for you now. It won't stay that way. In fact, it really won't take you all that long to get your land legs and, once you do, you'll feel better than ever. Strength in mortality, that's what I say. :) Yes, I recall France. She was sweet. God, it's been so long. I just remember her from when I lived in Ottawa, late 70's. If you really want to know and no one has recent info on her here, email me and maybe I can help you figure out the right contact. Or something. Hang in there, Jim

Subject: Re: I remember France From: mitch To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:07:12 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Hi Mitch, Sorry things are a little rough for you now. It won't stay that way. In fact, it really won't take you all that long to get your land legs and, once you do, you'll feel better than ever. Strength in mortality, that's what I say. :) Yes, I recall France. She was sweet. God, it's been so long. I just remember her from when I lived in Ottawa, late 70's. If you really want to know and no one has recent info on her here, email me and maybe I can help you figure out the right contact. Or something. Hang in there, Jim --- Thanks!! Thought would be great to talk to her again, and get her views also. I already feel quite better. have not really practiced for years (sometimes meditate) did not realize how I still was thinking 'maybe i will have to go back and maybe i left ....' I have been going to church a lot with my wife and those thoughts were popping up a lot. After reading about things that truly show MJ as just another person on quite a big trip makes it a lot easier to open up in church I was always seeking God and pretty sure learned some things thru those years if nothing else, met great great people think that is what i missed not mj but the other great souls

Subject: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Mitch Greenberg To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:29:36 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: If anyone out there is from Montreal and is going thru same depression to find out that our doubts were really reality. Maharaj Ji not being the Lord but just a human who manipulated and messed up our lives. please reply. Need to share this anger and disgust. I used to day dream, 'what if he is just this guy and how twisted that would be' After reading some articles, I find out that is the fact. By the way. I am from Montreal but have been living in Florida (parkland) for almost 20 years thanks for the quick replys www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Cynthia To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:31:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch, Feeling anger is a normal reaction to realizing (phew) finally that goomraji lied, conned, and betrayed each of us personally and collectively. Vent your anger here because we understand the anger. This is the place to express it. It might be scary at first but you'll soon feel better. Then, of course, there is the sadness but it doesn't last forever. Welcome out! Cynthia Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:59:11 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks! www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Deena To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 22:11:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch...it has been ages since I checked out what is happening here. I left 4 years ago, Jim knows best what I went thru because he was there for me. It gets better with time...much, much better. I don't envy what you have to go thru now though. You do have your self to look forward to...something you can't have when you are involved with Maharaji. By the way, I knew France in Ottawa in 82-83. Remember that you are not alone, that there are lots of people here that care.

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Deena Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:10:17 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks!!! you guys/gals are great!! www.gemdat.com

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Pullaver To: Deena Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:42:13 (EDT) Email Address: pullaver@yahoo.ca Message: Hi Deena. I think that I know you and lived briefly in your house in Hull after I left the ashram. Pls drop me a line at the e-mail address above.

Subject: Welcome Mitch From: Tim G To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:55:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't Worry Mitch...it's great to get out of the trap... it might take a liitle while and it might take friends and/or counsellors... but it is the beginning of a freer life for sure. Best to you Tim

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: Livia To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:36:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi to you and welcome. It's really not easy disengaging from a mindset that has linkered us for 20-30 years. The main thing is, you're not alone, and as time goes on you'll feel less and less alone as things begin to fall more and more into place in your thinking. Look forward to hearing more from you as and when you feel like posting. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: Leaving Maharaj Ji From: mitch To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:17:02 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Will have to have a big reunion one day We all can say what we are now doing etc etc know this is what this group is about, but in person would be fun. Hey I will chip in some. Our business is finally taking off Funny I used to send checks to MJ and my wife wrote something nasty on one of the memos and someone in security called me to ask if were a threat or something i said something like 'She loves Jesus and really cant understand this' I used to wonder why someone so into MJ would never hook up with someone who would encourage them into knowledge and so into Jesus She really helped pull me out of there So guess that someone up there was looking out for me after all She understands when i tell her I am very open to God but if i feel in any way manipulated or controlled by the church I will reject it , because I will compare it to Elan Vital. take care!!!!!

Subject: Welcome back From: Tonette To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:41:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes anger, depression, hurt, embarrassement (sp?), disjointed and delusional thinking, spiritual rape, arrested developement, ect are some of things you might feel. However, you have this to look forward to: Freedom, clearer thinking, new relationships that stand to be much healtier since they won't be justified thru the cult seive, a better understanding of love perhaps. I could go on and YOU will go on, this too shall pass. It gets easier and at some point you will laugh I hope. Take care. If it gets too hard getting some counseling is nothing to be ashamed of. Regards, Tonette

Subject: Hi, Mitch From: PatC To: Mitch Greenberg Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:37:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Need to share this anger and disgust.'' I hope you find another real live ex-premie in Montreal to talk to person to person but meantime we're all here for you and that's mostly what we all talk about too. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: mitch To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 19:52:45 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: Thanks to all , who have replied so quickly.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: Bolly Shri To: mitch Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:10:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mitch, A couple of months ago I was introduced to this site, It has been a lifeline for me. I don't have continuous access but just knowing that I'm not the only person who can't see the divine for the crap, is such a relief. At the present time I don't know very many exes in this area, but I feel like being able to communicate through this site is a real help. All those times you want to question Ms activities and the Stepford wives just blank you are over. On this site they acknowledge that your perception of reality is the truth. Good luck with finding your Montreal 'soul mates' and have a happy life in the real world.

Subject: Re: Hi, Mitch From: mitch To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:29:10 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: It has been a great relief to find out it is a real and actually quite a nice world. A lot of problems these days 9/11 problems in Mideast But my personal life is great!! Fourth kid just born two weeks ago. Business has been struggling so was wondering how we buy them shoes, barbie dolls you know the essentials but things are turning around for us. even more since i got more into a local church and finally realizing that returning to MJ is not an option I used to go to church and get really confused There is one God, but where do i focus MJ, Jesus, Judaism (note name greenberg) i prayed a lot for God to guide me the right way. Things are getting a lot clearer and this site sure helps me narrow down options I still believe humans need some kind of focus point You can just believe in God and that is great but realy brings a rush to think he walked on the earth at one point and think of him as a friend and a father. Not for everyone, but i personally need that That is why i was so drawn to MJ I basically lead my life very in the world now used to play drums professionally, now run a software company. Married but always hurting my neck looking at pretty woman. Hey they were the reason i never could live in an ashram even though i really wanted to. But I am the type that realy needs to have some connection to God I believe there are many ways to do that. I am leaning towards accepting Jesus, but dont think i will ever be one to say you either accept or go to hell that seems very manmade to me (some will argue) sorry to get so into religion but life seems to be smoother with some kind of belief in God Something that was in me since i was a kid, even without my parents pushing anything on me. i better get back to work bills to pay bla bla bla again you guys are great

Subject: Welcome, Mitch From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 16:42:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please feel free to share your story as it unfolds. Finding someone to talk with in your area will be rewarding. Plus there are a lot of people here who have been where you are and your words will be heard and responded to.

Subject: Re: Welcome, Mitch From: bill To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:31:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mitch, If it is any consolation, he managed to avoid his own mom for 17 years till her death. Then he woke up to the fact that he was stalled in some day dream and to this day 10 years later, he still hasnt managed to find enough guts to face or figure out reality. He is still an alchoholic if we are to believe one of the poems on his own website that had a line that said 'One day I will be sober'. He would find the first step in AA impossible to reach. The dreadful state of mind you get when finding out for sure that prem rawat is not what he led us to believe, demanded us to believe, is a nightmare I hope you somehow are able to keep shorter than I took. Your task is big, and you have to insert a reality based view in place of the one prem rawat gave us. Different people seem to take different routes from this point and you have not typed enough for us to know how to talk to you at lenght. How about telling us about your time with m. When did it start? Where? Did you live in an ashram?

Subject: Re: Welcome, Mitch From: mitch To: bill Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:47:00 (EDT) Email Address: mitch@gemdat.com Message: You asked for it, this is going to be a book but what the hey how often do you get to tell your MJ life story Around 1971 When I was bout 17, I first started hearing about MJ I was still going to school but already playing drums professionally in Montreal. I heard of him from some fellow musicians and people i knew in school (wagar high montreal) About 3 years later, I was about to move to Toronto to hit the big times, when I met up with the Bass player Allan Friedman. He told me not to go to Toronto and join up with his band. I did (BAD BAD MOVE) Well we started to practice up at this farm that the guitar player rented, and tada pictures of mj all over the place and no signs of hamburgers - just vegies before you know it i am at the outside program in orlando and crying after first time i see MJ come flying in in his helicopter (hooked - oh oh) couple of months later i do make my trip to toronto and get in a great touring band (not Rush sorry) 3 years pass and i am now in a great band that gets a record deal I am super happy at this time, but quite often think about MJ and how i need to get in touch with my spiritual side (Very strange drummer - having the time of his life and he is still seeking God) Well the leaders of the band demand too much up front money from think it was A&M record co and deal is trashed band breaks up and i end up jamming at some clubs in montreal and of course there are the mj guys again I decide this is all a sign and lets finally go get knowledge (I also play hockey with the bass player who is telling me how if i receive knowledge i will be even a better drummer a better goalie and see star wars in my session bla bla bla) So I start hanging out at the Ashram This is where I meet the famous France Bock and now really get hooked, because she is so nice to me and so is everyone else. Now guess who is head of my little Aspirant group Peter Detmers (Mikie's brother) and another beautiful angel Nicole , plus my initiator is Nadine. If you went on a computer data base and said White drummer, who loves woman seeking knowledge who is the best instructor to match this guy Nadine would come up She should have been singing with Stevie Nicks or my girlfriend Def free spririt And Peter plays guitar, the greatest guy you would want to meet I did not have a chance 5 weeks later I am just about to receive knowledge totally into the whole thing and i get a call from the percussionist in the band that blew the recording contract He tells me that X musicians from April Wine and some other pretty known Canadian groups just got a recording contract and lost their drummer They are an Emerson Lake and Palmer type of band and he knows I am\ a perfect fit They want to fly me to audition and if I am as good as this other drummer is saying I start recording immediately. I decide this is God testing me\ Do you want to have peace and salvation or do you want something as petty as fullfilling your lifelong dreams. I decide on knowledge I almost give Matt a heart attack he is yelling at me over the phone 'are you nuts!! you worked and sweated for the last 10 years in hopes for this opportunity!!! how can you turn it down I even asked Nadine for advice and I dont think she told me to not drum she said something more like you are a drummer, be a drummer you can receive knowledge at a future session But for some reason (and can only blame myself) i stuck to knowledge - maybe i was already brain washed or lost some of my big ego and confidence that you would need to win an audition like this I sold my drums, received knowledge and went to Rome 1977 about one week after the knowledge session. I then moved to miami to live with my parents so that i could save up money while working to buy another set of drums at this point wanted to still play But I was never the same To play drums in a rock band in front of a lot of people you have to have ego and confidence Trying to be humble and not there did not work with being in a rock band i played on and off for about 5 years but again never at the same level Myself, Sonia Ball, and some others got to play for MJ at the montreal and toronto programs around 1982 and 1983 Those were very nice times When the Ashrams closed I thought it was very strange and felt very bad for people I knew for the past 5 years. \Was wondering what they would do when suddenly out on the streets without a career etc etc Then returned to florida to go back to school and take up computers Slowly faded from knowledge and would just go to programs in miami until about 2 years ago As per my other emails, I have started to go to church with my wife and kids more often, and often when feeling really good about Jesus, would think 'what if i had the chance to be with the living master and blew it' I told my wife of this problem and even the minister They understood that even if there was 1% chance that God was here again in a living form you would have to check it out. But I always had doubts about MJ and when i read stuff about him drinking, smoking, having affairs, made me realize that the image I had of him in my doubts were real. The stuff about his instructer molesting those kids is the most shocking I told Donna, Those Catholics hiding the stuff about their priests is bad but they are not pretending to be GOD Even when I was with MJ I sometimes thought of Jesus. I used to wish he was more like Jesus and sometimes even believed that MJ was GOD but that i did not like that GOD who seemed to be just on a big power trip. I wished he would just go away and let me just worship the GOD that as a child I felt was so loving, and my friend and my father. MJ would make me feel so small and lost in such a big universe that it was sometimes totally devastating. During the 5 years that I was very active 1977-1982 I wanted to kill myself countless times and attempted to in 1981 I took a whole bottle of something that my dad needed for his heart condition I was found in a coma, they pumped my stomach The doctors told my parents that i took enough to kill a horse and were shocked when i came out of the coma about 2 days later I told friends that I had a surfing accident but I dont think they bought it. I was so lonely that I just wanted to escape the pain. I did not know what the Real God has in store for me A beautiful wife and four kids and a life of hopes and dreams.

Subject: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:17:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got off the phone with Darrell Brown again. He did indeed look over EPO when I sent him the link. I asked him what he thought and his first words were 'Looks like this guy's done some pretty nefarious things'. He agreed that the magazine had been duped. I asked him how he came in contact with the Maharaji virus to begin with (not in those words) and he said some people in the organization knew some people at the mag, something like that, it was a bit vague. Anyway, bottom line is that this was one big Trojan Hamster and they're not happy about it either. I asked him about the copy, how it was produced and he told me that most, but not all of it, was sent up by the Rawat people themselves. I got the impression that some parts of either the article or the interview may have have some direct involvement from someone at Leaders, he said as much, but was vauge on that. [Nice guy that I am, I can always tell when not to push people when they don't want to talk about something. Some of you should learn that too if you want to get along with people. :)] I told him about the discussion here. I was frank. I told him that we couldn't figure out if this was a real publication or what the hell it was, that giving a venal cult leader like Maharaji such an uncritical platform to say nothing much more than 'you are getting sleepy' raised obvious questions of legitimacy. He accepted all that. I told him that we exes were more than ready to do whatever we would with the article but what about them? Wasn't he concerned for his magazine's credibility? He intimated that, yeah, this could be a problem but what could they do about it now anyway? He sounded professional about it all, if I can use that word. He takes some comfort in the fact that their readership really are all these big shots who, he says, know how to read and screen things with smarts and sophistication. He told me that the magazine's run some other controversial people before. They even did an interview with Quadaffi once. I noted, though, that, in that case, everyone at least knew who Quadaffi is, what he's all about, and how he got there. In Maharaji's case, if you actually read the thing, there's absolutely nothing there. I pointed out that here's a guy who, right up front, in the beginning of the piece, claims to know the 'secret of the self' and the source of true happiness, inner hapiness. Short of offering immortality or painless plastic surgery, this was the most grandiose claim imaginable. Anyone even slightly interested in reading further is going to wonder all sorts of things: who is this guy?; why him, now?; how, how him now? -- all sorts of things. Yet, even when he's directly asked for any real information, Maharaji evades and says nothing. As an example, I mentioned the one question where he's asked: You were speaking to hundreds of thousands at the age of eight. Hwo did you find yourself in that type of situation at so young an age? Like Duh! You're damn right that's a good question! But what's his answer? Check this out: I really feel it is a gift. I can't imagine how all of this would have been possible otherwise. It's a wonderful opportunity to come from the heart and address the very simple nature of us all. Yes, Derrell agreed, there's jsut nothing there. The guy's asked a question that could triggered hours of honest, sincere discussion. Instead he says nothing. Indeed, all one derives from this piece, at least the two pages I've seen so far, is that Maharaji can make you happy. Come to Maharaji -- sorry, Rawat -- and he'll make you happy. I asked Derrell if there was any sort of Letters to the Editor section or other form of feedback, but he said not now. There used to be but all they'd get, he said, were thank you notes for the most part so they stopped printing them. But here's what he said. He said that, depending on the fallout from the article, they might consider running some sort of off-setting commentary. Depends of what kind of flak, if any, they get from featuring a laughing-stock cult leader in their magazine, I guess. Now, I got the impression that he was just thinking out loud here. I imagine that what the magazine will really want to do is just keep thieir eyes on the future on this one and hope to hell they can just keep on moving, if you know what I mean. But that is what he said. By the way, I told him, frankly, that I have been and will continue to discuss all this here on the forum. He was fine with that. He also promised to send me the whole article sometime today for futher review. He said a few times that he expects to keep in touch with me, sometime down the road. I imagine that EPO will be getting a few extra hits today from central Manahattan.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Kerry To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:49:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A little more reading/investigating yesterday revealed that David Schner is credited as the interviewer and John W. Teets (another mason, ex CEO Dial and Viad Corps) who is the International Chairman of Leaders has a Gulf IV - maybe that's the connection.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: calif premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:14:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello all I have been reading with interest and amazement for some time. For perspective : I am a premie (not an ex) have had knowledge for 21 years, have a family and a moderately successful business, MBA degree; most friends and assoc. have nothing to do with knowledge, and I have been actively participating with events until late last year. i practice knowledge most every day, see M as often as i can but only when i can afford it ( which mean mostly west coast events; never been to Amaroo). I am not a PAM (see, I have been learning your jargon), and with the recent changes have been very un-connected with any goings-on (learned about Amaroo and TPRF from EPO). I have gone through a lot of questioning and critical thinking about the issues raised here. i hope i am wrong, but i am guessing no one here wants to hear my thoughts and will immediately flame me, but here goes anyway: I have always felt uncomfortable with the veil of secrecy around certain things in regarding k and M, so appreciate their airing here. Knowledge and information are always good things, as far as i am concerned (this forum is a great example of the power of the internet). But some of the posting here forget basic human decency: respect for others even if you dont agree with them, and giving all the same freedoms you all desire, to pursue what they want of their own free will (yes, free will). What strikes me most about this forum is no one speaks about seeking truth in their lives, seeking inner peace or contentment. This is what brought me and most to knowledge; in the 70's I suspect many were attracted to the community and the security of the ashrams, and this is where i hear most of the outcry, emminating from this period, 30 years later. This is sad. So many talk of the loss of the living situation and the money they gave as opposed to any experience that was either never there or they no longer have. How about some personal responsibility in these areas you guys. If M and k weren't what you wanted, you should have left. if you stayed too long or gave too much, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Brainwashing? give me a break. Ask John McCain or any other POW who was subjected to the best effort at brainwashing in the 60s and 70s if it worked on them. No, it did not. I have never been pressured to give money (in fact i have been able to give very little; I would like to give more because he is helping people). It was never even insinuated that I change my lifestyle or move in the ashram (had girlfriends when I recieved K and was a die hard rock and roller). Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. I guess I did believe that at first. all i know now or need to know is he is a kind and compassionate man who gives his all to help people, and he has helped me. This is puzzling to me: so many chastize him for vague things he said when he was 8 or 10 that many of you interpret as him being god or something. He obviously is human. If you all know he is human, why do you condemn him for allegedly drinking, for having smoked pot, for having an affair, for eating meat, for being wealthy??? YOU are holding him to a non-human standard, the standard of a saint, when you say he is not. Dont any of you do those things/? what is wrong with them (i do not condone any affairs but he isnt the first to succumb). What does disturb me is the allegations of the accidental death of the cyclist and Jagdeos alleged child abuse. After reading all on here about those i conclude the following; show us some evidence, or even some witnesses who are willing to come forward and not hide behind someone else. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and i believe in due process of law. Why are there hearsay allegations coming out only 20 and 30 years later, and on only this forum whose purpose is to discredit M? I tend to believe the Jagdeo behavior, and my sympathy goes out to any victims. More over, if this is true he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Why hasn't he been/? also lets be clear; this wasn't rape or sex or fondling or nudity but inapproriate body contact, which is abuse and should be prosecuted nevertheless. but again, personal responsibility; the victims should come forward personally, and why didnt they do so 20 or more years ago. Passing a message through an instructor is no way to respond as a a victim of this kind of behavior. And how does this besmirch Maharaji? no one has accused him of child abuse or condoning it; he was never even properly notified. Child abuse is way to common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. The cyclist incident would bother if it was verified, as an indication of weak character. I havent seen a police report posted here to even verify the death and the the person supposedly responsible. These should be very easy to obtain. Why aren't they on the extensive EPO site? It seems to have gone unacknowledged by you all that many of the changes M has recently made are very similar to those requested on this forum, yet where is the acknowledment of this or recognition as a step in the right direction? He seems to have dropped the name Maharaji, he hasnt since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when i was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike. This says to me many of you arent interested in him changing as you claim, but are interested only in pulling others into the misery you yourselves are in. Are any of you happy, striving to improve yourselves, striving to be conscious, trying to give to your community or to others? for hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives, all without respect to our age, religion, origin, financial status, and --- without ever charging us a dime or requesting a donation. i know it doesn't work for many people. for various reasons. if it didnt for you 30 years ago, i truly wish you think about spending some time finding something that does instead of wallowing in your own past that you cannot change. I havent fully read the Leaders article, but i immediately did a search and found it to be a legitimate high ened publication, which does not pay for its articles from others. The reaction to this article has i am afraid further eroded your credibility. He is totally up front about what he is doing now, the new website is right out in front with the foundations means of support and includes a section in which to donate of one chooses to. Yet the reaction is to call him names again (really, fat jokes? grow up) and to claim there was some inpropriety involved in the article being published. What reasonable, intelligent person would believe that an exclusive publication whose subscribers include ( check their website) all o f the US senate, house, all US govenors, and most CEOS, would take a bribe to publish such an article, thereby thoroughly discrediting their publication? This would be business suicide. I hate to disallusion you, Jim, but when the author checks EPO he will see a buch of whining, name calling, immature people ranting about M but showing no evidence, much less relevce to what he is doing. He is a journalist, the readers are great thinkers; they will not be swayed by childish name calling; when the look for evidence or proof they will find none. i will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together. I any of the more serious allegations against M are ever proven I would probably disassociate myself with Maharaji, but i would still practice the techniques of knowledge that he so kindly offered to me, because i want to live my life filled with love, peace and joy, and that is what knowledge helps me find in my life. Love to all.....

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Tim G To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:07:58 (EDT) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Calif Premie Guy I appreciate your post. I also agree with you about the tone of some of the writings here, I objected myself when I first started reading. But this is a completely open Forum and the very multifaceted nature of it reflects the different places people are 'coming from'. No party line is prescribed with maybe the exception that this is an EX premie forum. Your substantive point about us, if there is an 'us': You say we do not mention the search for inner peace, contentment etc. If you read a little longer you will find that some of us still practice the techniques and benefit fully without the 'Grace 'of the master. Others have moved on to other meditation practices, others do not practice any path or technique. BUT what you will find is the common report that we tend to feel MORE human, alive, in-touch with our lives than when under the yoke of the so-called master. You are lucky in that it sounds as if you are quite remote from the workings of the Rawat Foundation/EV/DLM. A lot of people here gave their whole lives in dedication to Mr Rawat's regimen and eventually got badly stung. I cannot speak for anyone else on the so-called Spiritual front. I can only tell you my experience. Since waking up to the very closed nature of the movement and in particular the personality cult of its leader I have been on a very fulfilling journey. I am happier than ever and do feel grateful for the epiphanies along the way... that come DESPITE my efforts and my beliefs. What I have discovered is that the very effort to achieve inner peace is an obstacle and certainly any belief in a Saviour or Master is at the very least childish and in a sense an insult to the immensity of life . To be awake is the thing and to watch the workings of ourselves and others within and, very definately, without is the beginning of true 'Self Knowledge'. Not the repitition of some mantra or formula or reliance on a teacher. We are the teacher and the pupil. What happens around us and within us is the teaching. This kind of teaching has ethics and compassion. I challenge you to step outside belief and relian ce and see what it is like to live a day without a spiritual crutch. To watch a day that will exhibit the joys and miseries of living and see the marvellous show that is****ly going on while we cloud the sun. So that's my tuppence worth. As to wanting first hand evidence of Mr Rawat's lack of morals and kindliness you only need to read the accounts of several of the people who lived and worked for him for many years... such as Micahaels Dettmers, Donner and the late Bob Mishler. Something tells me the drip has just begun and I wish you lucl and enchantment on your journey Tim

Subject: For Calif Premie Guy From: Tim G To: Tim G Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 20:04:22 (EDT) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Hi Calif Premie Guy You might have missed this because of it's title. So here goes again: I appreciate your post. I also agree with you about the tone of some of the writings here, I objected myself when I first started reading. But this is a completely open Forum and the very multifaceted nature of it reflects the different places people are 'coming from'. No party line is prescribed with maybe the exception that this is an EX premie forum. Your substantive point about us, if there is an 'us': You say we do not mention the search for inner peace, contentment etc. If you read a little longer you will find that some of us still practice the techniques and benefit fully without the 'Grace 'of the master. Others have moved on to other meditation practices, others do not practice any path or technique. BUT what you will find is the common report that we tend to feel MORE human, alive, in-touch with our lives than when under the yoke of the so-called master. You are lucky in that it sounds as if you are quite remote from the workings of the Rawat Foundation/EV/DLM. A lot of people here gave their whole lives in dedication to Mr Rawat's regimen and eventually got badly stung. I cannot speak for anyone else on the so-called Spiritual front. I can only tell you my experience. Since waking up to the very closed nature of the movement and in particular the personality cult of its leader I have been on a very fulfilling journey. I am happier than ever and do feel grateful for the epiphanies along the way... that come DESPITE my efforts and my beliefs. What I have discovered is that the very effort to achieve inner peace is an obstacle and certainly any belief in a Saviour or Master is at the very least childish and in a sense an insult to the immensity of life . Looking for Any experience at all is still part of self interest/ego and there is not much difference if it's God or carpeting that we desire. To be awake is the thing and to watch the workings of ourselves and others within and, very definately, without is the beginning of true 'Self Knowledge'. Not the repetition of some mantra/breath technique or formula or reliance on a teacher. We are the teacher and the pupil. What happens around us and within us is the teaching. This kind of teaching has ethics and compassion. I challenge you to step outside belief and reliance and see what it is like to live a day without a spiritual crutch. To watch a day that will exhibit the joys and miseries of living and see the marvellous show that is****ly going on while we cloud the sun. So that's my tuppence worth. As to wanting first hand evidence of Mr Rawat's lack of morals and kindliness you only need to read the accounts of several of the people who lived with him and worked for him for many years... such as Michaels Dettmers, Donner and the late Bob Mishler. Something tells me the drip has just begun and I wish you luck and enchantment on your journey Tim Feel free to Email me.

Subject: Tim, I guess calif premie guy . . . From: Richard To: Tim G Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:09:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . didn't reply to either of our welcoming, considerate and conversational posts because he was too busy arguing with those he perceived as having flamed him. Funny how some premies complain about the unfriendly atmosphere (too much methane?) but ignore overtures of kindness. Too bad as I know both you and I are really nice, compassionate and brilliant guys. :) Hey, but he did say that some of the posters were intelligent so he must be referring to you and I. You in any case. Oh well, I suppose we should busy ourselves doing service by vacuuming the red carpet for the next premie with a few questions and doubts. I have a special feeling deep within inside that there will be more. Cheers, Richard Addendum: I've just read some of the new replies to CPG and am amazed at the intelligent, compassionate and loving words in this thread. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I see beauty here.

Subject: Re: Tim, I guess calif premie guy . . . From: CPG To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:46:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard and Tim, and others: i did appreciate both your posts, and all the other respectful and thoughtful ones, of which there were many. I even enjoyed some of the insulting ones. There were so many I couldn't reply to them all but tried to cover my thanks in the other replies. I am impressed by the ordeal many of you have gone through, and all your efforts and thoughtfulness to get through it, each in your own way; that goes for everyone I heard from hear. Thanks folks.

Subject: Thank you, CPG From: Richard To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:33:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG (as good a nom de forum as any), Thanks for that. I suspected you were overwhelmed at the response you got but I was having a bit of fun with Tim G. I support and encourage people on whatever path they choose as long as it is not harmful to themselves or others. All the best on yours. You sound like a thinking and feeling person so I know you'll make the best choices for yourself.

Subject: Welcome CA PWK guy From: Richard To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 13:23:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean that sincerely. Welcome and thank you for standing up and telling your story as you see it. Very few practicing pwks have done that. You sound sincere and I hope you find the information you need to make a concious decision whether to continue with M&K or not. It is your choice but I think it is vital for you to know all sides of the Satguru to Foundation Leader story. Others have objected to your broad brush (holi gun? :) portrayal of anyone who no longer holds M in awe and reverence. I agree as there are as many different stories as there are posters here. I take greatest exception to your characterization of us being unfullfilled whiners. On the contrary, many of us who are among the thousands of former followers have chosen to fully embrace life rather than hide within a faulty belief system. Many of the posters have families who they care for and who care about them. Many have created successful careers after decades of 'being above all that maya'. Many perform community service and are otherwise engaged with humanity. I, for one, served as a board member of our local arts organization. I have consistently donated my design services to further the arts, eductation and multi-cultural work locally and globally. I love my family and spend most of my travel visiting them. It is wonderful to love and be loved. I certainly don't fault you for thinking M has evolved beyond all that old Hindu junk of the past and improved with time. That is the official word around Élan Vital and now The Prem Rawat Foundation. The package may be new and improved but the content is the same original recipe. Bhakti Hinduism is what GMJ and his father before him was all about. It is precisely what Prem Rawat, foundation leader, is all about today. Knowledge is precisely and has always been about total devotion to Shri Maharaj Ji, Balyogeshwar, Satguru, Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, Captain Rawat, Prem Rawat, you name it. The other officially approved idea is that all of us projected our ideas of divinity on poor Maharaji and now he's broken free of that. If only we weren't so hung up in the past, we would see what a brilliant master he really is. Sound familiar? All the best to you in your continuing journey here on planet Earth. It can be a rich and rewarding journey filled with new awakenings. I have benefited greatly from emotional work, heart awakening and non-attributed meditation. There is more on the buffet than Bhakti Burger. Courtesy tip: Your post deserved a new thread and should not have been inserted in a thread with a different topic. Peace, brother. Richard

Subject: Please don't blame the premies From: Jennifer To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:25:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome, California premie guy. I enjoyed reading your post. I did disagree with you on one point in particular and I'll try to explain why here. Maharaji laid a heavy trip on premies. He said he was the Perfect Master come again. I know you said he never told you this, but he told thousands of others and I have the quotes here. (though retyping them here for the thousandth time is pretty boring, so can I skip it?) Maharaji told people to leave their homes and possessions and families. I think he has some responsibility for requiring, coercing that of his devotees. He required a lot from his followers--remember: Satsang, Service and Meditation? Of course people made their own choice to devote to him or not, but they thought this guy was really the Lord--Jesus come again. Many were seriously devoted to him. They did what he asked to get his love, approval, their own cosmic fullfillment as dictated by him, etc. Maharaji may have 'evolved' but he has never apologized or owned up to his past mistakes. Until he admits he's just a regular mortal dude who once said or thought he was God incarnate, many people he bamboozled (who actually realize this happened to them) are going to be disgruntled. In conclusion, it's not fair to blame premies (or ex-premies) for following someone they thought was the LORD. I realize it's sort of the Elan Vital 'party line' but it just doesn't hold water. Does this point of view make sense to you? I know one such devoted person who ended up committing suicide. Maharaji promised bliss and an ending to problems (yes, he promised that in the 70's and I have the quotes on that, too.) Despite her devotion and following exactly what he told her to do, she did not reach nirvana. If she couldn't get happiness from 'the Lord' who promised this, I think she wondered where it could be found. So she checked out. From your post you don't sound like you are devoted very heavily to Maharaji--just took what you needed and screened out the rest. That's good, so long as you remember that not every premie has that same experience. Some are highly devoted and I believe it's not fair to blame them and them alone for that. Maharaji has responsibility in this, too, whether he admits it or not. Take Care, Jennifer

Subject: To Calif. Premie Guy From: Will To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:32:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear CPG, A few points: Your perspective is quite understandable given that you received Knowledge in 1981 or so and that you haven't been to Amaroo or haven't really ever been a PAM, and close to the real action. It's easy to have a very benign view of Maharaji if you only know what he wants you to know, from a distance. The difference between the 70's and the 80's is like the difference between, oh, I don't know, let's say valium and a baby aspirin. My analogy might be a bit obtuse but what I mean to say is that the devotion of the 70's approached the Christians in the Coliseum days whereas the whole scence in the 80's was Knowledge Lite, no big deal. You need to allow the 70's people to have a different view than your's. About Jagdeo, there is plenty of direct evidence from the victims themselves. You need to know more about this issue. Maybe Susan or Abi will reply here, although they have been asked to discuss this matter quite enough already. There was actual rape involved, contrary to your current impression. Prem Rawat told Abi's father that he didn't hear anything about the issue before 1999, but that is an absurd lie. I think you will agree with me completely, once you know all the facts involved. This forum has a rather specific purpose and it is not to discuss the nice ideals of truth and bliss. That is certainly not to say that the exes do not maintain the 'heart' side of life in their personal lives. The reason that many of us are quite interested in the sex, drugs, and rock and roll side of Prem Rawat is that such considerations are important if you are kissing the guys feet and living your life according to his direction. Personally, I wouldn't mind hanging out with such a person, but I don't want to devote my innermost heart to him, either. It seems to me that Prem Rawat is still playing the divine savior game, he just doesn't advertise as blatantly as he used to. Just two years ago, he gave the filament analogy in direct response to the question about his divinity. He says now that he isn't the power station itself (God), but that he is the filament inside every person, without him there is no Light of God for anyone. That's pretty much being the current day Jesus, yes? The point that you make that I really strongly disagree with is when you say you will always practice the four techniques because a life of joy and love is what you want. How narrow! I think you should broaden your horizons, if you don't mind my saying so. Go****ly within yourself, by all means, but approach your own mystery as simply as you can, without formulas. Thanks for posting, and being brave enough to take us all on. Good luck.

Subject: To calif premie guy From: Dep =) To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 10:22:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am wrong, but I am guessing no one here wants to hear my thoughts and will immediately flame me, but here goes anyway: People here do want to hear your thoughts. This is an open forum where people can honestly and candidly express themselves (unlike some of the premie sites.) There is no 'party line' here. But some of the posting here forget basic human decency: respect for others even if you don’t agree with them, and giving all the same freedoms you all desire, to pursue what they want of their own free will (yes, free will). Some of the regulars are a bit feisty and cantankerous, but this is an open forum. Anyone with a computer can join in. There is no censorship here except for deliberate troublemakers and scoundrels like Catweasel (whom I happen to enjoy because he doesn’t take any crap). What strikes me most about this forum is no one speaks about seeking truth in their lives, seeking inner peace or contentment. Some do, some don’t. There are some spiritual exes and I’m one. So many talk of the loss of the living situation and the money they gave as opposed to any experience that was either never there or they no longer have. How about some personal responsibility in these areas you guys. If M and K weren't what you wanted, you should have left. if you stayed too long or gave too much, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Agreed! Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. I guess I did believe that at first. all I know now or need to know is he is a kind and compassionate man who gives his all to help people, and he has helped me. What about arti? An instrumental version is part of the soundtrack for the new Passages video. The superior power in person . . . ? He obviously is human. If you all know he is human, why do you condemn him for allegedly drinking, for having smoked pot, for having an affair, for eating meat, for being wealthy??? YOU are holding him to a non-human standard, the standard of a saint, when you say he is not. Don’t any of you do those things? What is wrong with them (I do not condone any affairs but he isn’t the first to succumb. I too don’t expect M to be perfect. What I object to is the hypocrisy and the cover-ups. Read the Mishler interview. If I had know about this stuff back in 1979 I would have left much earlier. Child abuse is way too common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. Agreed. He seems to have dropped the name Maharaji, he hasn’t since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when I was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike. Re-read some of the DLM publications as late as 1983 when M was 25. What was that you said earlier about TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS. Shouldn't M? This says to me many of you aren’t interested in him changing as you claim, but are interested only in pulling others into the misery you yourselves are in. Agreed, but this is a rather unfortunate characteristic of human nature and it's not restricted to exes. Are any of you happy, striving to improve yourselves, striving to be conscious, and trying to give to your community or to others? I am. Striving anyway. For hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives, all without respect to our age, religion, origin, financial status, and --- without ever charging us a dime or requesting a donation. Then where did he get the money for the obscenely extravagant lifestyle from? I know it doesn't work for many people. for various reasons. if it didn’t for you 30 years ago, I truly wish you think about spending some time finding something that does instead of wallowing in your own past that you cannot change. Well said! I have been recommending Buddhist vipassana meditation and the Landmark Forum on this site for over a year. I will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together.. Many here still meditate and value the experience. They just have a problem with M’s character, how the money spent, and the secrecy of the organization that supports him. The final straw for me was EV’s response to Jim Sander’s heartfelt letter. I any of the more serious allegations against M are ever proven I would probably disassociate myself with Maharaji, but I would still practice the techniques of knowledge that he so kindly offered to me, because I want to live my life filled with love, peace and joy, and that is what knowledge helps me find in my life.. I disassociated myself from Maharaji because I no longer respect him and no longer like him as a person. From what I’ve heard about him here I simply can’t watch videos any more. I still practice the techniques of knowledge he kindly offered me. I also do other practises such as vipassana, some mantra meditation, visualisation and affirmation, prayer, NLP, and yoga and karma yoga. I am one who definitely wants peace and love in my life. Thanks calif premie guy for your commendable post. It definitely helped further the conversation here.

Subject: To Dep From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:42:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The final straw for me was EV’s response to Jim Sander’s heartfelt letter. What was EV's response to Jim Sander's letter? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: To Dep From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:13:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's in the 'best of.' Here is the URL. http://www.ex-premie.org/best/Jim%20Sander's%20open%20letter.htm

Subject: Thanks, Dep and Marshall [nt] From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 13:37:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's in the Best of Forum on EPO From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:52:18 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Livia, Jim Sanders two letters to EV, and their one insulting,tepid, response can be found on the best of the forum section of EPO. I just got done reading it, and highly reccomend it. It's among the best things I've ever read around here. I can't believe I missed it last year when it originally was posted.

Subject: To Deputy...RE: Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:48:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Deputy, I noticed your remarks to Calif-premie-guy and have to point something out to you: Calif Premie Guy said: Child abuse is way too common but is a reflection on the individual perpetrator, not his employer or master. You replied: Agreed. This is not correct. It couldn't be more wrong. The evidence is overwhelming that Jagdeo, while under the power and agya of Maharaji genitally raped girls and committed other sexual abuse acts on innocent, helpless, children. These were the children of god-in-bod, Maharaji-worshipping premies who entrusted their children to be in the care of Jagdeo, a Mahatma of Guru Maharaj Ji, as he was then known. It's clearly an abuse of power and a crime on the part of the perpetrator but also a terrible abuse of power on Maharaj's part for not stopping it the minute he became aware of the problem. These are criminal acts against children. No excuses for Jagdeo obviously, and also no excuse for Maharaji. No, Maharaji is not off the hook for this. And in this process he also made others become complicit in the crime...read EPO accounts, PAMs have lied on his behalf for years about this. I believe that Maharaji knew about this very early on and is responsible for the actions he did not take to stop Jagdeo's abuse of children. To not act, to allow Jagdeo to continue to travel to other countries and communities, placing other children at risk, to allow him to live freely, knowing other children would have contact with Jagdeo was an horrific act of irresponsibility on Maharaji's part. There's no excuse for this. None whatsoever. It illustrates to me that he didn't care one iota about those children and the parents of those children who are/were his devotees. This is not living in the past. I read a book recently, a novel. One character was a Vietnam Vet who suffered from PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. One quote this character said struck me. He said, ''There's nothing post about PTSD. It's right here, in the present.'' This is true. Based upon the many charges and law suits brought by victims of Roman Catholic priests in recent years and recent weeks, it is clear that anyone who covered up for these crimes obviously is not the perpetrator, but complicit in the crime because of the cover up. High ranking priests in the RCC are now being held responsible for covering up the pedophilic acts of some priests against boys and girls entrusted in their care. Some are being forced to resign. Millions and millions of dollars have been paid out in civil suits to these victims. Legislators are now looking at changing laws regarding religious leaders who turn the other way, and send pedophiles to other parishes. We are talking about life-damaging woundings here. This is serious stuff. In the United States, anyone in a position of power over another person, who has knowledge of pedophiles abusing children is required by law to report this. This includes teachers, guidance counselors, health care givers, and morally, IMO any human being who has knowledge of child sexual abuse. Private individuals like myself take it upon ourselves to report such crimes. And they are crimes. Much discussion is now taking place about these RCC priests and why they were harboured instead of turned over to the police. The responsibility lies at Maharaji's feet because at the time he was ''the Living Lord of the Universe'' and had the power to protect those kids. He chose not to do anything. His only interest was his own self-interest. And what about these children who are now grown? Maharaji has just about told them to f**k-off. Of course the perpetrator is the one who should face criminal charges in the due process of law in the US. Being a co-conspirator is another thing altogether. Yet, anyone in the position of power as Maharaji is and was, is responsible for doing NOTHING. No offense intended....much education is needed on this subject. And the taboo is not the abuse...it's in the telling... Best, Cynthia

Subject: Horror ! Re: ... Child Abuse... From: Kerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:51:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did a bit of back reading today and was very upset after reading Abi's Oct. post which I hadn't read previously. I personally know a number of women/children who were sexually abused. One girl still struggling with the trauma of abuse by a cult leader. Abi's experience is violation upon violation upon violation. It doesn't matter what kind of rational, logical, or otherwise spin that can explain or minimise the horror of the violation. The worst part is the sense of violation continues when outsiders know and do nothing but try to explain or justify the powerlessness of doing anything about it. Maharaji has made himself the powerful figure of human salvation. The leader of premies, the object of their faith and trust. He has declared over and over and over his authority. It is just NOT OK that he declines to acknowledge any of the suffering of any of the premies, past or present. I've heard M. wax lyrical about compassion. This man significantly lacks it. Doesn't the mind boggle when you think of the crime.

Subject: Re: Horror ! ... Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: Kerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:49:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kerry, Tell me about it. The worst part is the sense of violation continues when outsiders know and do nothing but try to explain or justify the powerlessness of doing anything about it. It's not quite the worst part--the worst part is that the abuse happened at all. But denial does add so much to the suffering of an adult survivors plate of issues to deal with. The emotional and physical damage/wounding done to a 7 year old child who is genitally raped by a grown man is beyond comprehension. One thing I do like to emphasize however, is that any child sexual abuse is horrific. It's also very important to not minimize the suffering of other children who didn't 'happen to be raped.' Their suffering counts, too. I try not to get too graphic about this, but inappropriate touching/fondling is serious, too. Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Deputy...RE: Child Abuse... From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:02:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'It's clearly an abuse of power and a crime on the part of the perpetrator but also a terrible abuse of power on Maharaj's part for not stopping it the minute he became aware of the problem. ' I agree, IF M new about it and didn't move to stop him. I haven't seen any evidence of this except peoples speculation and reports of messages passed verbally through third parties....this is way to weak for me personally. As an analogy, I would throw in prison all the pedophile priests AND all the bishops or cardinals who send them to new cities knowing they have raped children. This is inexcusable.

Subject: Child Abuse... From: janet To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:58:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you say' I agree, IF M new about it and didn't move to stop him. I haven't seen any evidence of this except peoples speculation and reports of messages passed verbally through third parties' then try this on for size: i was living in denver during those years when the sexual abuse by jagdeo was going on and it was discovered. a ripple went around the community and jagdeo was looked at in a new, strange, uncmfortable light. Maharaji damned well had to have gotten the message unmistakeably, because from then on, 'watchers' were assigned to escort jagdeo everywhere he went in the community. He wasn't allowed to go out alone, go anywhere without the company of his 'watcher' to make sure he went where he was supposed to and didn;t try anything funny. How close was I? I lived across the street and went over into the house to do service there, cooking alongside the man in the second floor kitchen of 1560 Race street. I learned indian cooking tips standing next him at the kitchen counter. Is that close enought for you? I babysat kids who went to Unity School Denver. Is that close enough for you? We all wondered when or what maharaji would do about jagdeo, but we ourselves couldn't do any more than whisper to one another about it and stare at him when he was around, and try to be self effacing little devotees when asked to do something.Gurucharnanand told him. Judy Osborne told him. He sent back an answer with Judy Oborne, in fact that 'he was relieved that it was not a new incident'--therefore clearly indicating that the previous reports had already reached him fully'. I s that close enough for you? Or would it take jagdeo raping your own child or grandchild , neice, godchild, for you to finally have the horrible and gut deep realization that all you had heard was/is true? moving for the moment away from jagdeo, and over to the general sentiments and questions you cite in your first letter above, I want to shine a light on some things in it. Do you have any idea how much your questions in that post are not your own? If a hundred people from the same group appeared on your doorstep or in your mailbox or on your phone, each presenting themselves as just wanting to talk to you from their own point of view--and then every single one of them came out with exactly the same words, wouldn't you note it and want to find out where they all were told to say the exact same thing? what are the chances that a hundred people would repeat the exact same phrase to you and resolutely believe it came from their singular unique thoughts?. I ask you this, to make you aware that your thoughts are not actually your own, though you have been cunningly flattered to believe that they are. Every single person who is still practising Knowledge and considers themselves a follower of mr Rawat, who walks in here and addresses us, always utters exactly, verbatim, the same programmed phrases. But we don't reply to them in the exact same sentences. We really do speak in our own words and our own individual thinking. Becuase we can, now. We have worked hard at ridding ourselves of the loss of our individuality, that the cult so intently programmed out of us. Did you ever watch the movie 'Hannibal'? Were you struck by the scene when he slices the guy's brain and sautée's it in front of him ,and serves it to him as a delicacy? Were you shocked by the guy's blithe and childlike interest in it all, unaware of the enormity of what was being done to him? Eagerly participating in his own consumption and the obliteration of his very existence? I don't believe Maharaji's own cruel, removed amusement and contempt for premies is any different from that which Hannibal was evidencing. Consider it at length. It will grow on you. Its really strange for us to listen, because we really do celebrate the uniqueness of expression and thought here. We genuinely crave to listen to each others unique, new and unheard cogitation about this experience we all went thru. i, for one, would love to hear your genuine thinking, your original comprehension of how you reached this watermark in life, how you view and explain and account for the history up till now, and hear your personal process of working thru it and out of it. we endorse you--but as you. not you as stamped out in Rawat's presses, and suited up in rawat's company suit, and speaking rawat's sales jargon. we want to hear what occurs to you when you stop Acting and are left just with what you really feel. you said something in your post about 'staying too long and not recognizing when to leave'/ I will tell you something more accurate. In my case, I didnt leave Maharaji and Knowledge. He left me. I stayed true to the original goals and ethics i took my vows to, when i gave him the reigns of my life. And I watched him diverge farther and farther from those original vows, until the tie fianlly snapped, in april of 2000, after 27 years. For the first time and last time in my life, I got up and walked out on him, while he was talking. He had sold us out. He made it clear that he didn't want me anymore, and I didn't want him. you wonder why we don't just 'move on'. the reason is in your post as well. you ask why don't we get involved in community? we are. very much so. this, here, is a community...and we do this because we also care about the commnity we were in for so long, as well. some of us here knew each other in the physical world before there was a world wide web and PC's. others, we have only come to know on this forum. but we were all part of a community that we had friends in, had years of experiences in, and are still interested in now, though we stand farther away than we used to, and we are not so blinded by the shine as we formerly were. There are still thousands like us, still stuck, still gulled, still conned, still being taken in, by this dishonest, self serving, secretive, selfish, immoral, uncaring, conniving, grasping, cossetted and undeserving man. we care about that. those are our old friends. we want to see them remember themselves, and take back their power. take back their minds. take back their uniqueness. to have back what is rightfully theirs, that does not and never belonged to him. it was never his to take from them. rawat has never learned what is his and what isn't. it's not too late for us--and you-- to teach him that lesson. that's why we don't just 'move along'. the show is not over yet. that's why.

Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM****nomination [nt] From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 15:28:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: **BEST OF FORUM**I 2nd the nomination, Janet's*** From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:00:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet's post deserves to be preserved!

Subject: Brava Janet and shocking! From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 12:32:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very well said my friend. I could almost feel your heart opening as you spoke. You well and truly are one compassionate and passionate person. How dare premies say we are all a bunch of winey loosers (sic) who 'just didn't get it'? Loved your riff on Hannibal Lechter - brilliant analogy. For a few minutes I thought you may had been kidnapped by a gang of copy editors because your punctuation and use of caps was so very uncharacteristic. But half way through you snapped out of it. ;) Seriously though. The part about Jagdeo having 'watchers' to follow him around was truly shocking. I was in Denver at the time and don't recall it. Granted, so much dissociation went on that I may have filed it under Lila. Plus, at 1560 Race Street, you were closer to Ground Zero than I. That testimony, with more pertinent details (time frame, etc) should be added to the Jagdeo section on EPO.

Subject: Re: Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:51:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, Well, you said everything I could possible think of in response to CAguy--thanks. Excellent post, btw, Love, Cynthia

Subject: To California Dumb Ass From: Marshall To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:37:58 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Come on California Kook You keep complaining about how no one acted strongly enough regarding the 'Jagdeo situation'. Down lower you ask 'why didn't anyone send M a letter?' Are you serious? Even you have to admit gmj is not the easiest person to 'get a hold of' Read the entire story, it's all right there in the best of forum. Somehow you managed to find out partial details of the Jagdeo rapes and the cyclist accident/murder. Why didn't you finish the relevant posts? Do you have A.D.D. or something? Finish the research before you come here and make an ass out of yourself(and by proxy, all PWK's). As far as your slurs against my personal life, which you know nothing about, you couldn't be more wrong. Everything is fine in my life and getting better every day. Sorry to dissapoint you Cal guy but I'm far from 'miserable' and just because I'm not riding a fluffy pink cloud and spouting a bunch of tired platitudes doen't mean otherwise. I'm sick of all this 'Why can't you guy's talk about positive experiences with knowledge, blah blah blah.' This is not the I've got my head in the sand and refuse to recognize reality staring me right in the face website. Sorry. Go away you apologist, revisionist creep. I personally don't care that you are 'turned off' to this website by all the unfriendly vibes Fuck Off, There now THAT'S a REAL obscenity, you looser!

Subject: Re: To California Dumb Ass From: calif premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 22:15:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How charming. I am sure you are influencing lots of people to leave their pursuit of happiness to be just like you. I have found that those with limited vocabulary and defective mental ecumen tend to resort to obsenities and insults. For your information, all it takes to send a letter is an address and a stamp.

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: Marshall To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:20:06 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Look, you started with the insults, remember? I personally found your first post to be insulting, not to mention patronising and ill researched. So a bunch of ex's fell for your passive aggressive B.S. and treated you with kid gloves. So what? Just because someone calls a spade a spade doesn't make them unhappy, get it? Are you trying to build yourself up by knocking others down? Sounds familiar, PWK's versus People of the world(who aren't in the 'special' club) I don't care if you are charmed by me or not, this isn't a popularity contest. Limited vocabulary? Ouch, I'm so insulted. Gee, what does mental ecumen mean? I had to sell my dictionary. By the way have you had a chance to actually READ any of the myriad(is that a big enough word for you?) testamonies and eyewitness accounts that are all over the place(EPO)? Or do you prefer to just slog through the mud here with all of us disgruntled, angry, quitters who just didn't 'get it'. Also I'm not trying to influence anybody to do anything(unlike you, as far as I can see). I'm just calling 'it' as I see it. Actually at this point I hope you stay stuck in never-neverland forever, and by the looks of things you probably will. As far as calling me foul mouthed, obscene, etc. Duh, whatever!(is that California enough for you?) and, worrying about angry ex's hunting down your family? Absolutely ridiculous. Remember that Kinks tune? Paranoia, Mind destroyer! Wake up and smell the coffee, California guy, before it's too late!!!

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: ca premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:48:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NO , I did not start insulting you; read back if you forgot already. Yes Id did respond. I have enough street left in me that its hard to turn the other cheek against blatant agressive behavior. This rarely happens because I treat people with respect even if I do not agree with them. I have read through a lot of the stuff on here; some others have been helpful in directing me to other information I might have over looked. All you have done is insult me. People who insult others they haven't met or know through a medium such as this are pure cowards. I learned how to deal with bullies like you in the 4th grade. BOO! ! hehe...you can come back from under your desk now; I won't hurt you. Go away; I am bored with you now.

Subject: Re: To California Insulting, patronising guy From: AV To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:00:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you treat the abused and rejected with respect too, mate? At least find out their pains and causes of pain before you dribble cliches and unfounded suppositions all over the place, and as for Marshall, he's just living up to his name, turning it all up to no. 11 to get thru'........

Subject: Get real From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:03:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From this post: NO , I did not start insulting you; read back if you forgot already. From your first post: I hate to disallusion you, Jim, but when the author checks EPO he will see a buch of whining, name calling, immature people ranting about M but showing no evidence, much less relevce to what he is doing. 'I did NOT have sex with that woman!'

Subject: Re: Get real From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:17:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I referred to that comment in a previous post, and apologized if it did offend anyone. I was describing what an objective outsider would see; maybe too harshly. Try and take an objective look at a sampling of the posts here and tell if you see something different. Some posts are intelligent observations; many many contain fat jokes and insults. I am pointing out that with this kind of content no intelligent person will take most of you folks seriously. I am beginning to see most of you don't like you insult-fest interupted for real discussion. I really appreciate those of you who are not like this.

Subject: Re: Get real From: Jennifer To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'with this kind of content no intelligent person will take most of you folks seriously' You got a point. On the other hand, as an experiment, a couple of days I surfed around the Internet reading various controversial topic forums--religious, philosophical, political etc. (In other words, I didn't bother with home improvement, baking or dog grooming) Each one of these forums that allowed for free speech contained arguments, misunderstandings, personality conflicts and flame wars. It's just human nature and certainly not 'patented ex behavior' as some have suggested here. Hey, guys were even fighting on the Krisnamurti site instead of spending their time experiencing their own reality. Krishnamurti is probably rolling over in his grave right now. snicker. My advice is to read who you want and skip the rest.

Subject: Darshan, do you still kiss his feet? From: hamzen To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:51:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Care to explain why he's still doing darshan? Want to see the quotes from the last two years where he makes it explicit he still sees himself as 'the' master'? Why have you forgotten his speeches where he was explicit in the 70's that he was the incarnation of god, and why haven't you read those on EPO? And for your information re Jagdeo there was rape.

Subject: Experience tells me the exact opposite From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:36:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been here since the start and have received lots of feedback from objective outsiders, one way or another. Once they understand that we actually, literally WORSHIPPED Maharaji, they most certainly do appreciate the pleasure we take in calling a spade a spade. Face it, we used to call his form 'golden'. Men and women alike swooned over his 'beauty'. He was none less than the Avatar, come to save us from our selves ... it was a real, gopi love-fest. Objective outsiders invariably think that he's repugnant looking and viacriously relish the joy we have in finally saying so given what we went through.

Subject: Calif Premie Guy - What are you doing here? From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:08:39 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Do you have any idea how stupid you look right now? Do you even see any of the irony in all of this stupidity? I really doubt it. Here we are thirty years later, arguing over the internet, something that wasn't even invented yet, back in the day. Did you ever imagine this? When you signed on with 'THE LORD' back in '81? That it would come to this? As you sit back and monitor 'your lame-o thread' responding to every single post obsessively, your objective visitors or whoever, are laughing their asses off at you. Why are you so worried about how 'we' appear to outside, objective, observers anyway? Who are you? Or more precisely who do you think you are? Then, you have the nerve to accuse others of just wanting to insult each other and argue. Exactly what you have been doing all night! So, now you are also a hypocrite. Great. You want to butt heads with Jim Heller? That's crazy! and me as well? To boot! What's wrong with you? You question my 'mental ecumen'? Do you mean accumen, maybe? Get with the program Cal Premie Guy. One more time, Wake up and smell the coffee! Goodnight Sir!

Subject: Calif Premie guy is here From: The Doubtmaker To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:19:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because he has doubts. Doubts about some of the things he has read and heard about his 'master'. Doubts that his 'master' has tried to get him to repress. Allow him to pursue those doubts, allow him to seek the truth. He has made one step on that journey, allow him his pursuit. I believe he will find it here, in and amongst the 'whining' and 'bullying'. Or maybe he'll just stop doubting, as all good premies should do, and go back to the lotus feet of the 'perfect master of these times'.

Subject: Re: To Deputy... Child Abuse... From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:43:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Ca Premie Guy, There is anecdotal evidence that Maharaji did indeed know about the abuse in the past. In any event, he knows about it now and won't talk. A lot have gone on behind the scenes to continue to cover the Jagdeo issue up and Maharaji has refused to answer any questions or come clean about the specificity of what he knew and when he knew it. To me, that is very self-serving and ignores the needs of the adult victims. I'm not here to argue this issue with you. I'm simply trying to point out the obvious. It takes a bit of looking beyond how Maharaji portays himself to both premies and more recently the public. Btw, I've read your posts and hope you are well. Grrrrr....about those RCC priests, for sure! Best, Cynthia:)

Subject: Re: Calif premie From: Neville To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:06:11 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes:btopenworld.com Message: Calif premie, you sound way too smart to stay on a sinking ship--and it is sinking, relentlessly. That much is obvious to me, and I've watched M over a period of thirty years. Frankly, M's whole project has been dead for a long time--certainly as far as the West is concerned--and is only going to keep moving while the momentum lasts. The Captain needs you, but you don't need him. Get off now, while land is in sight. --Neville

Subject: CALIF PREMIE GUY From: WHY POST NOW? To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:03:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in this thread? Trying to derail the subject and deflect attention away? Me thinkest you are nothing but left over Elan Vital employee or maybe this is your new position with the 'Foundation'? At any rate, I find you completely transparent in trying to run this thread off the page.

Subject: Re: CALIF PREMIE GUY From: ca premie guy To: WHY POST NOW? Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:06:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please do not insult your own intelligence. Last i heard there were i believe 3 employees of EV; betcha less now. I don't remotely resemble any of them. I would consider several points I made as somewhat critical of M or EV; if they were going to post something they could do much better than i did. Why now? Why not...i have been reading for sometime and the reactions to the article by attacking the credibility of the magazine was telling to me and prompted me to write. I agree much of it was off-topic directly, and therefore maybe I should have started a new thread. Excuse please my breach of forum etiquit of which I am unfamiliar.

Subject: CA. Premie Guy-I'd like to talk to you... From: Jim Sander To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:04:03 (EDT) Email Address: sjimsander@aol.com Message: Hey CA. premie guy- I resect you for posting here,and would seriously like to talk to you in an open, honest way about m and k. I was a devoted, long time supporter for almost 30 years, until I realized many, many things that made me realize what a cult I was really in, and how much had been distorted or hidden from me by m and the organizations around him. Yes, information and the internet are very powerful and important. Ideally, there should be nothing to hide, although in this case, there is plenty that was hidden and is still being hidden. If you want to know more about my perspective, feel free to read my open letters to EV and the NC community in the 'best of forum' section, along with the EV replies. I'd seriously like to talk to you sometime about this, mainly because it negatively impacts so many people lives. These people have a right to know if the 'team' they are on, and the 'captain' of that team have done things that can hurt their personal lives. This is clearly the case, and if you have any doubts about this, I can tell you personally more about it. If you are sincere, and serious about an honest dialog, please e-mail and I would love to communicate further with you. I will be back in touch on Thursday of this week. Sincerely, Jim Sander PS: Your real name would be helpful, although I understand people's need to feel anonymous. Please respond only if you are willing to openly talk, and not solely to advance the 'premie agenda'.....there are very serious issues here that reveal a lot about the man and the people around him....when you do not honestly question these things, and simply go along with them, you are inadvertently endorsing them, which can have serious repurcussions in your life, without you knowing it at first...many people have gone through this (I can tell you numerous personal stories), and it is helpful to know what you are involved with BEFORE you get others involved....

Subject: Re: CA. Premie Guy-I'd like to talk to you... From: ca premie guy To: Jim Sander Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:21:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your respectful reply... Id be happy to discuss the issues, here for now. While anyone who knows me will probably recognize me from my post, I'd rather not send my name or email addy to any of you at this point. from there it is one easy step to find where I live with my family, and several posters here sound a bit angry and I wouldn't take that risk. I do emphathise with the pain so many of your feel, and I didn't mean to belitte it as some have said. I was characterizing what an 'outsider' might see when reading this forum. While some of you are respectful and well organized in your posts, others are constantly telling fat jokes and insults and angry tirades. These will never gain anyones respect or atttention. I posted because I wanted to see if there was more on these issues than I have found here...issues that will disturb me greatly if they are true. I believe in freedom: freedom of speech, freedom to pursue what makes us happy as long as it doesn't harm others. I like that you guys are voicing what you think is true, but I don't like that you try to disrupt others from practicing what is true for them. Maybe I have more faith in the abilities of individuals to separate right from wrong for themselves. More later.

Subject: What is that? A curse? From: Jim To: Jim Sander Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 11:17:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I resect you .... ?? :)

Subject: Ex-squeeze me, premie-ji? From: Inside Edition To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:42:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS'??!! Might you suggest the same to the living lord of the foundation. Why do you think rawat just reincarnated? It will not work, because you cannot polish a turd.

Subject: To Calif Premie: answer to your post is belowr From: AV To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:10:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to calif premie guy From: PatW To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:28:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have time at this moment to reply to you as fully as I would like unfortunately, but here goes... quickly... Re. Cyclist. and all Mike Dettmers reports. His statements bothered me too and so I called him and asked if he'd mind if we'd meet up to discuss. I felt that in a 'one-to-one' talk I would be able to gauge where he was coming from and if he was telling the truth. I found Mike to be very forthcoming, clear and frankly believed everything he told me - which he has largely reported here. Jagdeo: everybody - including 'senior premies' - recognises that the cases of abuse by him were true. Ask a PAM. Exes being bitter and not pursuing inner peace... Not entirely true. Some are bitter yes. However, one has only to be admitted to the alternate private forum called 'Recent Exes' to witness the continued sincere efforts of people to find Truth in their lives 'post Maharaji'. I still do the meditation techniques and enjoy the feelings derived thereof but I reject the notion that Maharaji's grace was or is a mysterious factor in 'unveiling' the experience nor do I feel that I owe him an enormous debt of gratitude as he has been keen to imply is the case. I am as committed as ever to pursuing, and promoting truth and integrety. 'RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOU ACTIONS' Exactly. The reason I post here is because, as a premie, I had an increasing sense of responsibility towards myself and society to do a thorough reality check on my position with Maharaji. That started off with 'warning signs' - seeing dysfunction amongst premies and then later, recognising that the dysfunction included Maharaji. So Maharaji has great responsibilty and accountability as one who is in a postion of trust, power and influence in my opinion. I believe it can be shown that he has not behaved altogether appropriately for one in such a position. In short I believe he owes some explanation and apology to those who he encouraged to surrender their lives and dedicate the fruits of their actions to him and he, by any human standards, should seek to make some reparation and to help those who have found themselves 'damaged' in their lives, or who basically got a raw deal. At the very least he needs to acknowledge the problems that his past course of action has led to, instead of hopping around re-inventing himself hoping that people will not notice the trail of disillusioned people he leaves behind after each switch. I don't buy the notion that people just can't 'keep up with his brilliant changes'. The Leaders magazine article.... is a good example of how Maharaji, sorry Prem Rawat is constantly changing his image to target and court a new audience. Not six months ago I was taliking with a premie friend who is very 'involved'. He was not a premie until the late 80's and has been successfully impressed that the Indian trips and ashrams problems were all the fault of premies and that Maharaji was never into that stuff. I was appalled at the success that the revisionist campaign had achieved in convincing him of this. It served very well to make him very antagonistical and scornful of me, who gently tried to introduce to him a more correct history- one which I lived through. Anyway I made the mistake of using the word 'Leader' to describe Maharaji (which seemed fair at the time) which provoked a hail of contempt as if I was really out of touch. No, Maharaji is NOT a leader...no, no... Gotta go now...I could go on!

Subject: Thoughtful Post, answer question for me please? From: Tonette To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:19:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you have had K for 21 years, that puts you receiving knowledge somewhere about 1981 or so. I recall that was about the time all the heavy devotional stuff was winding down considerably. In fact, have you ever been through the darshan line? Just curious. But what I would really like to ask: Since you say you have a family I take that to mean you have children. Would you be pleased or would you enourage your child/children to receive knowledge? If so why? I know that's two questions, perhaps 3 or 4 but since you spent so much time with your perspective in your post, I trust you don't mind scripting off a quick reply. Thank You, Tonette

Subject: Re: Thoughtful Post From: ca premie guy To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:34:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1980 I received K...still a lot of heavy indian theme stuff in the air...from premies, mostly. Most people I told about K were turned off by this. Yes I have had darshan. I feel a lot of gratitude to M andenjoyed the opportunity to see him close up. Many did not kiss his feet; I didn't feel I had to at all but I wanted to and did. For me it was a show of gratitude and appreciation, although a cultural tradition that is very off-putting to most westerners. My kids are relatively young. They know about M but we never even remotely propose to them that this is something for them. Neither do we hide it. I very much want my kids to be happy, in whatever way works for them. If this is through K, great; if not, fine, as long as they are happy. I really don't care, except I know know. works for me and I have seen it work in others. I have many friends who don't have knowledge and are very happy and I feel no urge to get them to try it. Probably some aspects of the early 70's environment would have turned me off, especially the early treatment of women by Mahatmas as I heard 4th hand or so. Who knows if the pull of the message would have been enough for me to overcome the atmosphere at that time.

Subject: Interesting. One more question please, From: Tonette To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 05:09:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, you're not ramming the idea of needing a master or the likes as a necessity in being happy to your very young and impressionable children. But you don't deny that your children love and idolize you. And I'm sure you try and teach and guide them through your actions, words and deeds. They do look up to you and children have a very quirky way of knowing way more about a parents thoughts and feelings than we realize. And they are perfect little copy cats, especially while young during their formative years. That said, here's my question or two or three. Do they watch videos of M when you play them at your house? If not actively watching, are they in the same room? How about your music CD's of M's music? You guys listen to them in the car or at home? But here's the question I really want to ask. If your adolescent or pre adolescent child came home one day (that day is not as far off as it seems, believe me) and let's say, told you they had just joined the church of sceintology and were very happy, would you be okay with that? How about if one of them became a Muslum and was associating with a mosque that focused on the concept of Jihad as a means to the greasest happiness of all, 76 virgins and an inside track to Allah? Sound cool as long as they are happy? Remember Heaven's Gate and those poor souls 'Leader,' those folks not only seemed happy they were all quite intelligent and successful in the world. Bet they died happy too, as well as drunk and drugged. How would you feel about that? My point here is this, I think you owe it to yourself but more importantly to your most precious children to answer the question about Maharaji that you seem to be inclined to dismiss because of no hard proof. Documents, ect. You seem able to dismiss the satsangs satements he made in front of thousands of people, probably some you even heard with your own ears. Don't believe any of it. You are not in a cult. Maharaji is not a liar. Maharaji is a generous, loving human being who is helping lots of people. He's helping allright. Helping himself to people's money and hearts. He's not a disguised con man. Knowledge is an inner experience of God, my soul. Whatever. After all, it's not important who or what I am endearing, who my Master really is, it's my experience, my happiness that's important. It works for me. Right? Besides without proof, we could be wrong. Listen, you can do what you see fit. Believe what you want. Maybe if you write Maharaji and ask him about this stuff, your concerns about the rapes and cover ups, ect he'll tell you what really happpened. Better yet, email him. That's quick. Or a phone call is probably the easiest. Why not do that and when you get a reply would you be so kind to post it here and straighten all of us out? Someone who's had k for 21 years M must at least of heard of you. And you did do some high level work for him although not in his presence. Yes, best go straight to the source to find out the truth. Good luck and I do hope you are able to sort this all out. You know this but never delay in giving your children a daily hug and kiss. Leave no room for doubt in their minds that you love them. Regards, Tonette

Subject: Re: Interesting. One more question please, From: CPG To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:25:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet you are a mom, tonette. I probably hug and kiss my kids too many times a day, but thanks. Yes, I want very much for my kids to be happy, but of course not by being involved in something that hurts others or themselves, or anything dangerous, such as drugs or something very risky. I know what you all will say so let me save you the time: m has hurt you...thats why I am here investigating. we dont really watch many videos at home, don't listen too often to CDs (tired of most of them) and when we do it is at night after they have gone to bed usually. We have a couple of small pictures around of M. We aren't at all like what a lot of you probably remember from the 70's: all M all the time, shoving it down everyones throat. Not at all. Many people in my life don't even know about it. We usually watch the weekly broadcasts. when they were at 1pm on sundays (usually my only day off and I spend it with the kids) they started complaining 'not the broadcast AGAIN' so we tape it often and watch it later. Now it is on at 5 so that works better. we do watch it with them around occasionally; they pretty much ignore it. They don't seem to give a hoot one way or the other. if anything it is slightly negative: they didn't like so much when I would go out of town for a few days for an event. I never really tell them much about it; it is totally up to them when they get older. As for them joining some dangerous group or cult : I would always check anything like that out thoroughly, and give them my strong opinion, but when they are adults it will be their own choice. What you suggest is exactly what I am doing here: not only checking out all your allegations but thowing myself in here to dig up even more, like (I think it was) Janet's post. (Thanks for that Janet). Many accuse me of spouting the party line, but believe me, there is no party line about you ex's; no one talks about you at all except with regard to possible event disruption. Can't talk to any premies about this stuff, I have tried some; actually if I am not satisfied by what I find here I will reach out to some others and see what they have to say. So I am here to investigate soley for myself. Once I reach a preliminary conclusion If I feel it necessary I probably will write him about it. I wouldn't expect an answer; he has never contacted me before personally. He probably knows who I am but I have had very little personal contact with him. But if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises in the future. At this point I have't yet reached that conclusion. Thanks.

Subject: You're worth more than that. From: Tonette To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:55:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am finding this dialog with you most interesting. Yes you are right, I am a mother of two beautiful children. A boy now 17 and girl just 11. Married to their dad for 25 years. He's been an ex now for 2 years after practicing k faithfully for 25 years or so. His final drip was composed from several factors: Partly from reading EPO, the drug and alcohol use he could of cared less about. The wealth, so what. What got to my husband was when he read the accounts written by close people around M, of the lack of basic human decency on M's part. Stuff like M never read the letters sent to him by devotees, in fact, M just trashes them. I'm sure he has someone check to make sure there are no funds inside first. The Jagdeo coverup, Mishler's interview, Deca and the treatment of the premies there, the way in which the ashrams were closed and the callous treatment of those premies, ect. But it all came to a head after a program held on Father's Day in Alexandria, VA. My husband realized that M has never cared for any of his followers. Especially in the way that M has and does claim. He's pulled off the greatest ruse. He's told the worst sort of lies, well into his forties. He's a user and a con and when you stop to think, just what has he done in the way of any good works? See any floors of a hospital named after him? A functioning, working charity that actually delivers a service? See, since M runs a cult, my husband was never privy to any of this information about what M is really like. Just your basic premie trying his best to maintain his experience of k by practicing in the way he was told by the Master. He never believed M was divine actually but did wonder if M wasn't something quite unique. Wondered about exactly what was the experience in meditation. Could never coherantly expain nor understand it but it must be something. Well, my guy has not meditated for quite awhile now and has cut the teter of M's strings from his heart and mind. The change I see in him is remarkable. Me? I received k in 1976 just prior to the Atlantic City program. I had darshan and was so disappointed by the utter lack of experience that I wanted to go thru again. Back then darshan was described by initiators and even M's wife as the 'opportunity' to connect with who M really was. Had nothing to do with gratitude really. M gave satsang and then at the end of the program did his little dance routine with his wife. I thought 'my god' what have I gotten myself into? But it was too late for me. I was living in a premie house, age 19, attending school at this location, all my friends were premies, had just moved out of my parents house. There was just no extracting myself, ect. I married shortly thereafter and attended satsang and events, called festivals, for the next 7 years. I thought k was special and was enabling me to spiritually develope. My drips were many and often and the advise I got was you're not meditating enough. What allowed me to walk away without the help of EPO, nor any ex friends, was two fold. The birth of my son, which caused me to take a good hard look at myself, my beliefs, my direction. I liked most of what I saw but when I added up all the drips I knew that in spite of what everyone was expressing M was not a very nice person. And his little organization certainly hadn't spread k everywhere. In fact, I remember thinking gee, if it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, feels like a cult but you're not quite sure if it acts like a cult you had better step back and wait and see. So I did. I maintained peace in my home with my husband by not challenging too often or too forcefully his continued practice of k. We got on. It wasn't until I came here that I knew for sure, 100%, that I was right. I thought it only fair to give you a little of what I am about since you have been so forthwrite in your replies to me. What I want to point out to you arises from a statement you made. ' I wouldn't expect an answer; he has never contacted me before personally. He probably knows who I am but I have had very little personal contact with him. But if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises.' So, you would be cut off, punished if you will, if you dare to ask M an unpleasant question. And you know that M will not give you the time of day, not an answer to either a letter or email. That is not someone I would want to associate with nor help for that matter. Why don't you see yourself as worth a little consideration and trust from your master of 21 years? You're a human being and a valid one at that. Do you think M sees you like that? Do his actions support any evidence that he has any regard for you what-so-ever? And what is the monetary value of the skill that you are donating to M? Your time? Your self worth? Not to mention the time and attention and possibly money M is extracting from you that should be focused on your family, your children. I dare ask what is this service that you value so much? And dear god, CPG, you are entitled, yes entitled, as a human being, to respect, communication and the truth from the man that calls himself your master. You're worth far better treatment. You need answers and if you don't think M and what he is, what he stands for isn't rubbing off on your children, think again. BTY, you can never love your children too much. Get in all the kisses and hugs while you can because there comes a time when you'll have to ask for those. Just wait until you get the drift that they are slightly embarrassed to be seen with you in front of their friends. Best of luck, I hope you will answer this post. Kind regards, Tonette

Subject: CPG:Don't you GET IT?... From: Jim Sander To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:15:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey CPG: To quote you from above: 'If I feel it necessary I will probably write him about it.....I wouldn't expect an answer.....but if I do that, I would expect to be cut off from doing service if the opportunity arises in the future...' You already know the score, but do you REALLY SEE how bizarre and cultish this whole scene is, and how you buy into it? Have you really woken up to the facts, or are you just reciting them? What kind of 'teacher of self-knowledge' does not allow questions? (Would Socrates have taken that approach?) What kind of 'teacher of self knowledge' teaches you to avoid 'doubts', or cut yourself off from an entire part of yourself and call it 'the mind' (with a connotation that it is something evil, like the devil...) What kind of 'master' allows you to serve him, but only if you don't ask him honest questions that might confront him? BTW, your asking of these questions might simply be your only protection from his sleazy lifestyle ruining your reputation.....think about how people will talk about you (most likely behind your back) when you recommend 'k' to them, and they take a spin around EPO for awhile......if he cares about you as a student, wouldn't he address these issues, so that you don't get hurt? If he wants you on the team, why is he 'setting you up' like this? (Sure, he doesn't sit at home at night and plot how to screw up your life, but his absloute and steadfast DENIAL of these issues and REFUSAL to deal with them, potentially hurts you.....as for himself, he's got high priced lawyers to defend himself if need be, but what will he do for you when his denial screws up your life?) What kind of teacher should get your respect when he lies and lies and lies again, only to blame it on other people? (Simply look at old quotes vs. new quotes, and his recent explanation that the Indian mahatmas and 70's premies spread the concepts that he was god.....according to him, he didn't do it, they did it.....but who gave the satsangs with these 'concepts' in them?) Should a liar and manipulator get love or respect, or be worshipped as he still is?( you won't find darshan and arti talked about at too many intro programs,even though it's still practiced by the faithful) Shouldn't an honest person question him on these things? Do you see how his denial becomes your denial when you refuse to honestly deal with it? Do you see how this lack of ethics destroys any possibility for sincere honest people to ever get into this? Do you see how his denial of these things, coupled with the unquestioning mindset of the average premie, produces this bizarre cultish behavior? No one calls him on this stuff, because they are afraid to, and it subsequently weakens their life and morality as well. Premies live in fear of the truth about maharaji.(ex:if I were to write him about this, he might cut me off from service...) WHY would you want to serve someone like this? Just wondering, Jim Sander PS: BTW, none of this is meant to be angry or directed at you personally in a maliscious way, but I do find it astounding that people who claim to be seekers fo truth are scared of it..... all the best to you, and I respect you greatly for even being here...

Subject: Re: Interesting. One more question please, From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:10:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, My advice to you would be to check out EPO and read as much as you can there. I did, and it was enormously informative and illuminating. I didn't even discover this forum for a while - I was too busy reading all the archives from the older forums, some of which I found utterly absorbing. Especially read Mike Dettmers, and John Mcgregor - they have a lot to say. And Bob Mishler - ironic to read him now and see what sense he is making whereas when I first read that interview I thought he had totally lost the plot...I guess I was still looking through premie-tinted glasses... And read the 'best of forums' and all the stuff under different subject headings, until you start building up a clearer picture of what has really been going on. All this will take you a while, but I do think it's worth it. Personally I decided it was the only course to take; to become properly informed for the first time, and make up your own mind. It may make you feel quite wobbly for a while, because what you may be doing is deconstructing a mindset that has sustained you over many years. I guess the more you have invested of your life, the more painful it can be. Good luck in your quest to discover the truth. All the best to you, Livia

Subject: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: Kilgore To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:13:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and was accepting cash in exchange for the privelege of kissing his foot You said, 'he hasnt since he was a pre adolescent made any reference to being anything approaching divinity, he has never asked anyone for money, yet you condemn him for things he said at an age when i was playing with playdough and learning to ride a bike.'-in 1974 he was 16(not pre-adolescent)when the song below topped the Cult Charts --- --- --- --- --- -- Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the feet of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free No one should remain in illusion's misery Without Satguru no one is ever set free Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion To our souls he's the perfect destination He removes the false and grants true devotion Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death Endless his glory, infinite his praises Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart Light appears within and darkness departs Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny He is the supreme power and will always be Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Nanak has been given this revelation Without Satguru no one attains liberation Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the form of Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru ..... (to fade)

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: ca premie guy To: Kilgore Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:42:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee, I was never charged for going through darshan. Guess they missed me. I was so broke I couldn't give a dime. No one turned me away. What anyone gives or gave is there own business and their own responsibiity to do so responsibly. I know several premies with trust funds, btw, who started in the early 70's and are still living well off them today, so they obviously didnt give it all away. At 16 I almost got myself killed 3 times in that year alone from my reckless behavior that I soon changed. I also believed many things I dont today. He was still a teenager. He didn't write the song did he, although he must have approved of it. I choose to let each person decide for themselves about this 'divinity' issue. Personally, for me its a question I can never answer and its not important. But reading that song in the context of the indian culture which influenced it heavily, it is not offensive to me. There are also different ways to interpret many of those words, some not as literal as others.

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:47:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi California Guy, I had my first ''formal'' darshan in 1975 and many more after that. Just for your information, if someone didn't have a card to give to Maharaji before entering the darshan tunnel there were plenty of people available on the entry way to the tunnel giving out envelopes to premies on the way in. It was assumed it was for cash or checks. That's how is was back then....

Subject: To Cynthia re Darshan From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:32:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you know, i'd forgotten about the envelope thing, I guess it melded into the ' just-another-precious-opportunity-to-show-your-love-for-your-precious-Lord ' theme. I never recall giving much, was usually pretty hard up... Always seemed to pass out anyway, or at least get fairly zapped; what was that??

Subject: Hi AV From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:36:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't think we've met. There are a lot of things that surface when others mention them such as the darshan envelopes, certain events during programs, etc. I've been off this board for a bit so I missed when you came on board. I was always pretty broke at the point that darshan lines took place, too. Many premies were but gave anyway. I would always put money in a card for goomraji but it usually wasn't much. All those 'not very muches' added up I'd imagine. Those long drives home were pretty exhausting as I remember--with very little money for food. I have been all over this country and never saw anything but the inside of halls! Best, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cyn From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 14:29:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: those halls Cy! crap sound systems, revereration narcosis, having to cope with hours of 'heavy satsang' from 'premies who were really devoted and / or had realised knowledge. We must have been pretty desperate i reckon. mind you ( don't work to work the nostagia genes too hard... but) Very early days were very very different; a lot of genuine outpouring, a real tangible current of love, excitement and expectation. And no-one really had a clue about the lord of the universe tag, that was very much in the domain of mahatma-speak, and you know, their english pronounciation was pretty lame at that point; so we were basically just getting off on the vibe ( the way it should be?), and it was a pretty powerful vibe too, as I recall. We had supper in the ashram and literally bolted our food to get there early and find a front row seat, even if it was more often than not on the floor. I tell ya...there ain't NOOO substitute for spontaneous enthusiasm. Fast forward to Lingfield racecourse,wet, cold crying kids in tent City and Durga goddess person guru wifey getting tough and nasty with the soaking numbed out premies for not being worthy of M or K or some such verbal abuse. I stayed there with the family , living offa tinned beans and porridge, on the way out we had M swish past in his Rolls, all decked up in silk suit and raybans. My reaction was one of guilt, for not being in satsang where I should..we had gone for a drive to get warm. On the way home, virtually peniless, we stopped in a cafe just as they were closing, and were given loads of warm food and drink, and they wouldn't take any money from us. I guess we looked a sorry state. When honchos and rich women in full length cashmere coats swishing their way to the front rows and dining in open air bistros near the programs became ' de rigeur'...i really did feel something had been lost; the inborn sense of human equality, the ability to share and care when called for. The abilty to see the potential for the awakening of supreme love and awareness, when the masks really can fall, You can't scream at people to get them to open up. Berries fall from the trees when they are sweet and ripe, before then, the fruit is bitter. The last premie meeting re-propagation etc I attended about 5 years ago, the vibe was as flat as a pancake, everybody looked tired, uptight, like they were all convincing themselves some wonderful new phase was about to happen etc etc. but I felt like a real outsider, like someone would be screening my remarks in case I said something that was just, well, 'not appropriate' Anyhooo, gotta go; the magic is still there, everywhere.

Subject: Re: rAWAT at 16 approved of this song From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:08:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia Thats how it was in 1980 too until whenever darshan stopped. There were often people at the start of the tunnel with envelopes for those who wanted. I never saw anyone push one on someone. I think I gave him a card first time, no cash. After that I don't think I gave anything. Walked in with no card or envelope and no one said or did anything. Thanks for your other post too; I agree if : he knows allegations against Jagdeo are true or likely to be, whether or not he knew earlier it would seem to me to respond to the victims only would be the responsible thing to do. Given the hostility he has incurrred from this camp, and that most aren't looking for a constructive dialog, I can understand a reluctance to open a dialog, but still....

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: AV To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:43:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear California Man, I appreciate your vulnerability to actually standing outside of your own situation and seeing your life and connection with M from a 'helicopter shot' perspective, it is an extraordinarily difficult view to achieve because all of your powers of discernment and discrimination may be called to question. 1..... striving to be conscious, trying to give to your community or to others? for hundreds of thousands of people, these are some of things Maharaji has helped us to have in our lives...... I wonder where this rhetoric has its foundation? One of the points frequently raised in this Forum is that ; YES INDEED there IS an experience called KNOWLEDGE, but it doesn't appear to have any interface into the world or community at large. I have had Knowledge for over 30 years and have no recollection of any officially organised charitable or socially active groups of premies that have with or without the official sanction of EV / M, sought to provide a practical conduit of the experience of K into the realm of the public need. There was a brief attempt at this back in the mid-70s, but since then , nothing to my awareness. I don't think I could be accused of whining or whingeing to say that the physical direction of most premies energy is devoted towards 'completing the loop' with M. That is not to say giving money per se, but on a deeper level,an underlying conviction that M is the only cause and focus worth directing anything to. I could be churlish and trawl up a load of quotes, but I want to make something VERY CLEAR; I do not post here to lampoon M , I have very personal experiences which would make me feel I was betraying an intimate confidence. I DO post here because I see so many damaged people, good people,people that DO want to evolve into conscious , wholesome loving beings, but have had their psychological welfare but a great risk, POSSIBLY due to their long term involvent with M , EV or both. I can't say for sure, but a lot of patterns are emerging... I feel I can quote a couple without betraying their privacy; 1. A sweet girl, very bright very creative, who tried to O/D because she couldn't see any other way of freeing herself from 'her mind' and being 'in that place'......misguided? of course, but that sort of stuff happens when one's awareness is catapaulted into a blissful ectstatic non-physical state, and then for whatever reason , access to that experience suddenly halts. This is some thing I personally struggled with for years. M constantly and emphatically reinforced the ethos that the experience of K was the ONLY place to be in. Don't you remember 'Constantly meditate on the Holy Name'?.....that wasn't cute advice , it was a COMMANDMENT,ok? 2. Another person who spent his last bucks on one of M's projects to the detriment of his health and family, nad was shunned my M when he really needed some contact , after years of service. 3. another sweet and giving person who adores M, considers him to be her calling in life, yet doesn't have the ability at 50 years to re-arrange her room, buy something nice for the home or put her considerable talents into the public domain. 'i will continue to monitor this forum for a time, still waiting to see something more than people who never mention the experience, and are only now,30 years later, just starting to get their lives together.' Quite frankly, California Man, how f*****g dare you!!! There are plenty of people here who talk about the beauty of their experiences; Their agony , and mine , is that they are now party to 'behind closed doors' information which is so contrary that it invokes a crisis of one's entire core belief process, for reasons which are patently obvious. They have been doing nothing BUT 'get their lives together' for the last 30 years.... I see where the fruit of your experience has gotten you personally, judgemental and void of simple human empathy. Just because you have been blessed with what appears to be a fairly safe and sanitised life ( and do forgive me if i'm wrong ), it does not follow that others' paths enjoy such amenable scenery. You said 'Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity.....' What, you mean like 'when a premie dies and God comes to collect his soul, Guru Maharaji comes and says ' no you don't, that one is mine!'...(approx recollections) or 2 years ago.. 'people go around saying , he thinks he's the all wise one , well as a matter of fact, I AM the all wise one, they just don't have the imagination to see it...' again approx. recollection. The whole nub is , M's stance has always been that he IS the perfect master offering knowledge of the perfection within.... 'this knowledge is so perfect, soooo perfect, that wherever it touches , it makes that perfect also...' Now it is the RAWAT FOUNDATION offering self knowledge...fine but if M IS wageing war against the darkness in the world, why no acknowledgements of casualties amongst his own troops? I am posting here at risk to my own well being, my connection goes very very deep and even considering that I may have been spiritually misled on some level is almost soul destroying. .....maybe it would be better for you NOT to come here lest your dream be broken.

Subject: What??!!! From: Marshall To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:51:52 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Dude, you're satanic. The cyclist murder had an EYE witness, Michael Dettmers, you're calling him a liar? Just say that then you coward. Jagdeo? He RAPED! Yes raped, didn't just touch or whatever, at least Two young girls, at least. It's well documented, along with the cyclist story, as you would know if you did your homework all the way, you immoral jerk. The reason it wasn't reported immediately as you say, is because it got buried by Rawats associates. Also there was a lot of fear involved. You are a real sicko, and you give California a bad name. Damn right you're gonna get flamed creep!

Subject: Re: What??!!! From: ca premie guy To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 16:56:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its easy to spout obcenities sitting there alone in you room behind your keyboard, isn't it. I hope you enjoy the miserable little world you have created for yourself. But thats what freedom of speech is all about isnt it. The burden of freedom of speech is that since anyone can say anything, in order to be believed on factual mattters we must offer evidence, if not proof. One thing I agreed with Reagan on: trust, then verify. A death is one of the easiest things to verify. I don't know Dettmers, so I don't question his integrity, I am just waiting for some kind of verification. Perhaps I missed posts that accused Jagdeo of actual rape; even with that if the others are true he should be prosecuted. Why isn't someone going after him? It wasn't M who is accused of these deeds. If he protected him, shame on him. Someone telling someone else to tell M about this is a very weak way to try to find justice. What if M never got the message? Why not at least write a letter? My heart really goes out to the victims, and I hope they can get past it somehow. But blaming M...they can't even verify that the was told. And to think that some premies close to M would have the power to 'bury' this...stop police departments from investigating, if they were indeed told ...that is ludicrous.

Subject: To: Ca-Premie Guy... From: Cynthia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 18:03:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, Here is a link to a very sensitive post by Abi in which she tells about raped by Jagdeo. If you go to ex-premie.org and click on the Jagdeo link, you'll find other information about efforts many people have made on Susan's and Abi's behalf. Warning: It's not an easy read. Best, Cynthia Abi's Account of Abuse ex-premie.org/best/fragmentation.htm

Subject: Re: To: Ca-Premie Guy... From: ca premie guy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 23:16:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi Cynthia you know i had read the first part of that, but I must have gotten interupted and forgot to finish it, because I never got to the rape part. I did remember the body contact part. Poor girl...those kids went through a lot. Have any of the other kids come forward from that incident? With a few testimonies Jagdeo could probably be indicted i would guess. Of course they have to come forward because at least in US you have the right to face your accuser. I do tend to believe this story, and am disgusted by it and hope some action against Jagdeo can be taken. I have done a fair amount of reading here; all i saw in terms of Rawat knowing was two people telling instructors to pass a message to him. Is there anyway to document that M knew about this? Besides 3rd party messsages and hearsay. If there is if someone can direct me to the docs I would appreciate it. Thanks cynthia

Subject: Apologist Drift From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 00:28:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is something I've seen often with premies. They start off with a certain position that seems reasonable enough. If it turns out X or Y is true, that's it. They could no longer support M in those circumstances. What they never discuss, though, is the big white elephant that's sitting atop of and essentially squishing their so-called 'critical thinking' and that's their psychological predisposition to stay the course no matter what. You can pretend you're indifferent to whether you stay or go and will simply follow the evidence where it takes you but we all know that's a lie. Be honest. Factor in your 'loyalty' or whatever you want to call it. Until then the notion of critical thinking is a joke. Oh, and by the way, looking at your first post again, it's quite amusing to hear you say: Plenty of premies told me M was the latest Jesus, the only living lord, but he never did. Some of his early quotes do vaguely imply something divinity. Only a cult apologist would ever reduce something like the quote I showed Darrell Brown from (Cult) Leaders Magazine as a vague implication of divinity. Here, lest you forget: 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' Critical thinking, my ass!

Subject: Re: Apologist Drift From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:06:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People with blinders on wouldnt wade in here for more information expecting to come under atttack and abuse, like i have done. i don't remember seeing that quote. Referance please? Date and publication. That is the strongest, least vague i have seen on the subject. The reason the whole issue is vague to me is this: i consider myself and all human beings a manifestation of God. Where is god? in the sky? no, inside every single human being. Therefore, we are all devine AND we are all human. Thats what I believe. Now obviously he is saying he is more divine than the rest of us, if this quote is accurate- 'The highest manifestation of God is Guru'. After receiving knowledge and hearing similar things I put that question in the category of things I will never understand (whether he is or isnt) ; he stopped saying things like that, so did premies, and i haven't thought about it again until very recently. maybe he is, and he is human too ( i never saw him as perfect as a human being, like the rest of us). i am guessing that quote is from the 70's when he was a young kid still steeped in indian tradition. if he was still saying similar things i would most likely have a problem. That he did when he was a kid i can attribute to youthful indescretion. Bottom line on this issue: it doesn't bother me, but i can understand how it would bother others. knowledge works for me and that overcomes a lot of misstatements for me. The issues that have bothered me, and i was right upfront with this, are any early knowledge M may of had about jagdeo, and the cyclist. Show me the evidence! if it exists. Thats what i am here for and i don't care how many people insult me. Point me to it or tell me it doesn't exist. While i can respect that the other 14 points bother many of you, i could give a crap if he eats meat or smoked pot or drinks or has a girlfriend..its not my business...what he shows me works. i have always believed he is human . BUT..as i said before...proof of involvement in a crime as has been alleged here would make me rethink my involvement with his work, which, btw, was at what most considered quite a high level, tho rarely next to him personally. cheers

Subject: CPG: A simple solution for you... From: Jim S. To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:30:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You could request that Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner e-mail you with their phone numbers and you could call them yourself, and get their first hand accounts of this stuff, and then see how you feel about it.... After that, you could write a letter to m and ask him to talk about it, although I wouldn't hold my breath on that one...I did it with my open letters and never heard a word from m .....even about the jagdeo abuse situation, which I had first hand circumstantial evidence of from the 1970's.... Best of luck, bro...

Subject: To CPG - more about your concerns From: Will To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:16:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, You say that you are most concerned with the issue of whether Prem Rawat knew about Jagdeo's crimes. You are quite right to be concerned about this. I will try to outline a few facts for you that you may have missed in the archives. You seem to know that Susan told both Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne and that she requested that they tell Rawat. Susan says that both those people got back to her and told her that they had indeed told Rawat. You probably also know that both Randy and Judy now claim to have no memory of this incident. But think about it. How could that be? You're told that one of Maharaji's initiators sexually abused a child and that child wants you to inform Maharaji himself about it. How could you EVER forget something like that? Either Susan is lying or Randy and Judy are lying. We already know that Randy Prouty is very willing to lie about Maharaji to save Maharaji's reputation. Randy was in the car following Maharaji when the hit and run accident happened. Randy immediately went into the front car, which Rawat had been driving, while Rawat went into the back car, which Randy had been driving. They continued on to the airport. (I wasn't there, I'm just pointing out the salient facts to you, as reported here). Surely, if these allegations were untrue, Randy would want to refute them, and he hasn't. So, given the importance of maintaining Rawat's reputation, so to speak, (we could say maintain the illusion of his Perfect Master status), it is obvious that Randy and Judy have more reason to lie than Susan does. Abi's father was informed about the rape in 1985, a few years after it happened. He immediately informed Guru Charnanand. Charnanand wrote a letter of support to Abi. After 1985, Jagdeo continued touring as an instuctor, with continued access to more premie children. However, he was now allowed to tour only the Orient and Australia. Many people were told to keep an eye on him, but were not told exactly why. Many other people were told why. Many instructors knew all about the situation. Certainly Charnanand knew by 1985. How could Jagdeo's touring be confined to one part of the world, and Rawat not know anything about it? We also know that Abi's father met with Rawat last year during the Amaroo program. They met privately on the grounds, and Rawat told Abi's father that he didn't know about the crimes of Jagdeo until they were reported in 1999 on the Internet, (on Ex-premie.org). What are we to make of this situation? Think about it for awhile!!! Does it seem likely that several of Maharaji's initiators would know about Jagdeo, that they would all keep it a secret from their Master? Does it seem likely that all these crimes were being committed by one of Rawat's closest disciples and he remained oblivious for years? Remember, Jagdeo was especially close to Rawat because he had been a follower of Shri Hans. If Rawat were indeed oblivious to all the crimes, which is the best scenario for Rawat, even that situation is quite damning to Rawat in more ways that one, in a spiritual sense and in the ordinary sense. How could he be so clueless and how could so many of his close associates allow him to be so clueless about something as important as one of his representatives fucking little premie girls. I don't know what conclusions you will come up with. I, myself, condemn Charnanand heavily, either way. He certainly should have informed Rawat, and I am certain that he did. To not have told Rawat would have been an outrage. And once Rawat did learn that Charnanand knew in 1985, certainly Rawat would have been furious at Charnanand for keeping him in the dark about the matter. But that can't be the case, because to this day, Charnanand is still Maharaji's top instructor. What must have happened is that Rawat knew about the incidents and used that knowledge to keep Jagdeo securly bound to him as a devotee. It is extremely typical for a guru to overlook sexual improprieties in their top associates, for two reasons. The guru himself is engaged in sexual improprieties, and, the guru has more power over people who have 'sinned' and are now being chastised privately, but not publicly. To publicly chastise the offender would be an embarrassment to the guru himself, so it is kept hush hush. The above scenario, although it is educated conjecture and not proven fact, points out the reason that the guru should be above all objectionable behavior himself. The guru should certainly not screw his own devotees or drink and smoke dope, simply for the reason that this activity could not possibly be good for the student's welfare, and the guru is supposedly devoted to highest good for his devotees. Your lack of concern for Rawat's personal life is extremely telling. Only a confirmed cult member could hold such a cavalier attitude about his master. You are obviously putting aside your own discrimination. This is extremely harmful to you, spiritually. Discrimination and the highest ideals of behavior should be upheld. I hope that you wake up the latent discrimination in your mind and apply it as staunchly as you possibly can. Do not be afraid of makeing changes in your life. The changes will be for the best, I assure you. Good luck to you.

Subject: A few facts From: Harry To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 19:27:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG, Will and all, Since CPG asked openly and forthrightly for more info, I'd like to throw a few facts into the mix. Some people here have genuinely tried to answer him from their point of view and some have just regurgitated what they've heard, much of which was invented or heavily embellished to start with. Let me start by stating the obvious...Jagdeo's actions, if true, are reprehensible and criminal. I personally believe Susan, in particular. 1. Nobody I know of, who was around Jagdeo at the time, knew anything about this. This includes several of the people who are currently doing their best to make Maharaji look bad. Michael Dettmers- knew nothing about it. Michael Donner, who was 'in charge' of the initiators - knew nothing about it. A friend of mine interviewed about 40 people when this came out in '99, to get to the bottom of it. None of the teachers at Unity School knew anything about it. I worked around Jagdeo quite a bit in the late 70s and early 80s - I never heard a peep about this. And yet, every time a mahatma or initiator engaged in inappropriate behavior of any kind, let alone child molestation, they were relieved of their duties before a single follicle could grow back on their shaven heads. This is a fact. 2. For those like Will, who believe jagdeo had some sort of special status or was particularly close to Maharaji, that's not true at all. I saw their interaction many, many times in private and it didn't resemble the 'special' bond and respect Maharaji clearly had for Gurucharanand, Sampuranand (R.I.P) or Gyan Baraganand. He called them 'Mahatma ji,' and there was always obvious respect from him. He didn't act like that at all with Jagdeo and anyone who observed their interplay would confirm that. The idea that Jagdeo 'had something on' Maharaji is laughable. Where the ball of communication was dropped is anybody's guess. The fact that this info didn't come out for 20 years is a pretty strong indicator that it was never reported, at least not in anything resembling a full-strength version, to Maharaji or any of the people in organizational positions of authority at the time. I know Judy Osborne and she's a lovely, honorable woman who has worked as a midwife for decades and is dedicated personally and professionally to child health. If you knew her, you wouldn't think for a minute she'd lie about this or blow it off. Anyone who has observed Maharaji's interplay and connection with kids over the years knows he'd never condone or support this crap for an instant. 3. It's clear that the majority of the people here believe Dettmers, Donner and Mishler (of all people) and swallow their perspectives, revised and otherwise, as being the Truth. Has anyone here ever put it together that there are MANY, many other people over the years who have spent lots of time in close proximity to Maharaji, who neither agree with nor support their versions and accounts of life around Maharaji? Does that fact register or are those guys the sum total of all wisdom on the subject? I knew all three of these guys, to varying degrees, and without getting too personal about it, let's just say I wouldn't buy a used karma from any of 'em. There are plenty of people whose company you'd probably enjoy a whole lot more, whose observations and conclusions don't match theirs AT ALL. I've tried a few times to offer another view here, based on experience, not conjecture, and have been met with a closed, deaf ear. For the most part, I and many others I've spoken with, feel it is a futile effort to keep typing away in a chatroom to counteract what we feel are fairly ridiculous statements and conclusions. I've had 'alternative views' on this stuff censored off of this page before the 'ink' was dry. CPG said he has read this j'accuse material thoroughly and is wondering if there's more to these stories. In just about every case I know of, there is LESS to these stories than is believed here and some are outright fiction. Much of what I've read here is bullshit or, at best, wildly out of proportion to reality, multiplied by repetition, exaggeration, anger and peer pressure. One of the only things that does ring true is that Jagdeo was up to serious no good 20 years ago though the attempt to 'pin it on' Maharaji, after the fact, is sadly, typical, counter productive and unfair. If true, Jagdeo did these things, not Maharaji. Small difference, I'd say. Last I heard, there was a warrant out for Jagdeo's arrest in India. Personally, I hope he pays for the suffering and confusion he's caused. I'd suggest to anyone to base their assessments of Maharaji (or anyone else, for that matter) on their actual experience and interactions, not chatroom gossip, distortion and obsession. Now back to the real world, thanks for listening. Probably wasting my typing...but I guess I care. Harry

Subject: The people you are calling liars... From: Chuck S. To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:14:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... stepped forward with their real names, and made themselves available to be asked questions. Anyone who wishes to refute what they have said are welcomed to step forward with their real identity and do the same. Are YOU willing to step forward with your real identity, and talk about what you claim you know? If not, then why should anyone believe anything you say? What credibility are you offering? An anonymous voice is not accountable for anything it says, and is no more convincing than a ghost.

Subject: You're wrong, Harry From: Jim Sander To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:02:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Harry- I was at the Unity School in Denver in the late 70's. Were you? Jagdeo had special 'kids satsangs' in the upstairs classrooms, and other places as well. I know this, because I helped prepare rooms for this. Of course, I didn't know what he was really doing in there at that time, but the ritual he went through with the kids there was the same one he did in England with Abi and the kids there. Your smug attitude really bothers me, as I knew and loved many of those kids and their parents. Their parents were very devoted to maharaji at that time...in fact most of them would have done almost anything for him then. Is the way that maharaji treats his devoted followers? I have written to EV and they could care less about what I have to say. What kind of attitude is that? One of my best friends was given the 'service' of watching jagdeo 24/7 at the time. He was told to never let jagdeo out of his sight. He wasn't told what jagdeo had done, just that he had done something terrible, and had to be watched constantly. These are facts, Harry, and I suggest you listen a bit more instead of trying to defend mr. rawat. I'm just curious about a few things: 1-Is Harry your real name? If not, why not post with your real name? 2-Were you at Unity School in the 70's? How can you say that none of the Unity teachers knew about this? 3-What is it that you don't trust about Donner, Dettmers and Mischler, or are you just trying to muddy the waters with false innuendo here? Care to mention and defend any specific problems you have had with them? 4-Why defend mr. rawat with these defenses that don't hold water? 5-Are you willing to publicly dialog with your real name? If not, why not? Just wondering, Jim Sander

Subject: Re: A few facts From: CPG To: Harry Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 00:06:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much for you message, Harry. I am looking for facts; just the way I am; and you relayed your experience which I greatly appreciate. Wish more people who have first hand knowledge of any of these intereactions/people would do so too. I wasn't there back in the day (70's) so I don't know any of these characters. i am awaiting a barrage of challenges; i curiously await. One thing you said that rang true for me is why 3 people out of so many I know have been close to him. I still listen to their versions eagerly, but as they are after all some person I don't know writing something unverified on the internet, prudent person that i am i am still looking for verification. Maybe with Jagdeo and what M knew when, it comes down to he said/she said; but there seems to be little questioning all around of the grotesqueness of the atrocities he committed and that he should pay for it. Can anyone else confirm/substantiate that there is a warrant issued for his arrest? Is this a new development? I presume if it can be confirmed that it will be added to the EPO info. I probably sound like a lawyer or something to some ( i am not) but when it comes to reading different accounts on the internet the way i make a judgement as to credibility is documentation. something, somehow to show M was notified and ignored it, not just that some instructors were told; they might have been too fearful to tell him or a hundred other things could have happened. i eagerly await your response to Jim's question about the cyclist, and thank you again.

Subject: A few more facts-Rawat's indifference to abuse From: Marianne To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 02:45:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG: Today, the most important issue is why Rawat is not taking responsibility for compensating Abi for the harm she suffered at Jagdeo's hands now that he does know about it. Rawat met with Abi's dad, then still a devout premie, a year ago in Amaroo. A year later nothing has happened. Why? Today he and his organization still owe Abi an apology and compensation. Do you defend this position? Even the Catholic Church is compensating victims for sexual abuse suffered decades ago. Rawat has turned a deaf ear to Abi and her family. How can you justify this position? Marianne

Subject: One question, Harry From: Jim To: Harry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:04:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think Dettmers is lying about the cyclist?

Subject: I can't believe you just posted this! From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:30:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I warn you about what I'm calling 'apologist drift' you then jump in with both feet and give us your best example yet! You know what I hate most about arguing with premies? It makes me overuse exclamation marks. :) No, seriously, you do indeed sound like a holocaust denier at this point. You say the quotes don't go that far, I show you they do and you start scrambling like roaches when the light's turned on. Listen, I could show you the reference -- they're all there on EPO if you take a look -- but, honestly, be real, what difference would it make? Nothing's gonna make enough difference for you, bud. That's why they call it a cult. :(

Subject: Don't forget... From: Marshall To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:30:01 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: This 'guy' also said, in his first post 'I've never heard Maharaji request donations from anybody.' This is patently pathetic. Of course gmj never literally called anyone up and asked for money. Of course not. He let 'representatives' from DLM, and then Elan Vital, and now The Prem Rawat Foundation' specifically Yoram Weiss etc. grovel and beg for him! What a great guy. Speaking of foundations guy, your house of cards is built on one of the flimsiest 'foundations' I've ever encountered. Also your posts are filled with misspellings and grammatical errors much worse than mine, so you are also now a fool.(remember when you insulted my intelligence and my vocabulary?) So now you "finished reading" Abi's letter, that you "must have been interupted while reading or something" even though you came blazing in here like you knew everything. Now you even "believe Abi", but unless we can show you the "proof" gmj knew" you won't play along anymore, boo hoo, sob sob. Why do premies always resort to using small i's instead of capital I's when they are cornered? I swear that always happens. Calif Premie Guy forget the coffee, go back to sleep!

Subject: OK, I'll be bad cop next time :) [nt] From: Jim To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:55:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're wrong about one thing From: Jim To: calif premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:50:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fact is, people really are happy to talk with apparently sincere premies like yourself. How're you doing, oh nameless one (pick one, please)? Honestly, you sound like a decent person trying, best you can to sort things out. A few points: 1) There is indeed an eyewitness to the cyclist event and that's Mike Dettmers. In fact, he's the one and only witness, there's nothing second-hand. Mike was there and witnessed it all. There's some unavoidable logic here I hope you can appreciate: Mike would indeed have everything to lose alleging something so heinous if it weren't true. Talk about defamation, that's it, friend. One rung below saying that he saw Maharaji murder someone, for example. (Watch the stupid premies now spend the next two years complaining about how I called Maharaji a murderer. And you call us whiners!) No, the ball's entirely in Maharaji's court on that one. His silence says all. Don't forget, it's not as if Maharaji is above harrassing us with lawyers. He's already tried that. Suing Dettmers would have been not just easy, it would have been virtually obligatory, not to mention slam-dunk -- IF he was lying. Think about it. 2) The Leaders Magazine (soon to be called 'Cult Leaders Magazine'?) article is amazing. Have you actually read it? What do you call a person who claims that he has the secret of happiness but won't answer a single reasonable question -- like about what he's talking about, or how he knows, or what 'Maharaji' means or why him at eight years old? Read it as if you weren't a premie but an interested reader. It's amazing. Beyond the lies and grossly transparent whitewash, he utters the stupidest things I've ever seen in print. Here, I'll go get you one (although Rawat's turned off the 'text' feature to make copying impossible, just like on his other web sites): How do you define success? The way I see it, if you don't feel successful within yourself, then it doesn't matter how successful you are on the outside. There is always going to be a distinction between the two. Even if you are the CEO of a big corporation, you have to come home, and what happens then? You may have a big office, a lot of power and a range of awards, but when you come home you're just yourself. You need to be a success there too. Ultimately you can be exceedingly wealthy and still be happy and satisfied, or not have a penny to your name and be equally fulfilled. Once you draw the distinction between you and everything else, it's very easy to see that outward success is not what really matters. (God that was hard!). Now, this is funny a million ways over. I'm sure Maharaji is indifferent to whether HE is extremely wealthy or doesn't have a penny to his name. I wonder, is there a single premie out there still naive enough to believe THAT cult lie? We all used to. I remember that. But just look at how banal it is! This guy is not talking to the mind, he's trying to get it in a sleeper hold. Read the whole article; it's all like that. Not a single answer, just boasting and cartoon guru empty slogans. Doesn't that tell you anything? 3) I understand your confusion as to why exes want to expose M as being a real person but then seem to criticize him when he sets himself out that way exactly. Friend, what can I tell you? The whole damn show is dirty. There's no redemption here. No making a silk purse out of a hamster's ear. He is just a blatant, fraudulent and, to be honest, ugly inside and out, cult leader. We're getting him coming and going because that's how HE's playing it -- coming and going. 4) Re 'inner peace' and 'truth' and all that, you haven't been reading enough. There are lots of exes who still believe in that shit. Many don't many do. And we argue about it. Big deal. 5) Re the 'nobody brainwashed you' argument. Here, friend, I have to say, you either weren't there or you weren't listening. Read the old quotes section. Read some of the satsangs M gave specifically about the ashram. Don't lie to us and don't lie to yourself and we'll get along fine. Don't forget, yes, you're still a premie but we really were there too. You cannot take our past from us and, unfortunately for the cult, all the evidence supports us. Every last drop. Go figure, huh? :)

Subject: Re: You're wrong about one thing From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:21:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. read above the reply to the foul mouthed guy,; show me the evidence. I don't disbelieve him, but neither do I accept what he says as fact without evidence or proof. A death is very easy to verify. There are many reasons to not sue; the favored approach seems to be to ignore you folks (they are probably not happy with me stirring up the hornets nest here). 2. I am waiting for the reprint to read the whole article. I could give a crap if its a good article or not. 3. You didnt address the contradiction, but life is full of them, so are people. 4. Yes, big deal; its just what struck me first as being mostly absent from the conversations 5. The point about brainwashing: I don't believe it is possible, and neither do the experts. The only one who can wash your brain is you. The point about the POWS was: if it hasn't worked on people under those extreme conditions with state of the art torture and mind control techniques, how can you expect any rational person to believe M is capable of brainwashing? Here again you folks assign him much greater powers and abilities than I. I don't deny your past or your issues of feeling misled, and I do sympathise. But can you accept that there are thousands of premies who enjoy knowledge, feel gratitude for M, of their own free choice and will? To think all premies are being deceived, brainwashed....would be a feat never before accomplished by anyone. If you can accept it, please let those of us who want to enjoy it, while at the same time providing the iformation you feel is important. And please, don't make it a black or white issue. There are exs who still practice apparently, and otheres like me who call themselves premies but want more informnation on your charges.

Subject: brainwashing From: Livia To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 04:44:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To think all premies are being deceived, brainwashed....would be a feat never before accomplished by anyone I don't think you've really thought this one through, Calif Premie Guy. Have you heard of Sai Baba? The one who, it is now being alleged, has been abusing boys and young men for decades? The one who is worshipped as a living 'avatar' (incarnation of God) by thousands upon thousands if not millions? I have a friend who is one of his followers and know that if I tried to tell her what I've read about him, she would dismiss it. Or find excuses, or reasons to disbelieve what is being claimed. Just in the way that you are trying to debunk the allegations here. She would do this because her belief in Sai Baba has gone very, very deep, just as yours in Maharaji has. She says that Sai Baba has given her peace, just as premies do. What is going on here? Surely I don't need to document all the cases of people sincerely believing in someone who then turned out to have feet of clay? It happens all the time! Read up what many followers of spiritual masters think of their masters, especially if they come from the Hindu devotional tradition. Think about it really hard, because it may then occur to you that you too have (inadvertantly?) been caught up in the Hindu devotional tradition. Maharaji uses a new word now to deflect attention from the fact that what he wants is devotion. He calls it gratitude. I've seen you use that word quite a few times - obviously you have bought into the new spin. Don't be fooled by it - it's just that old devotion again. As for the meditation, if you still feel like doing it, go ahead. Believe me, it works just fine with or without devotion, sorry, gratitude to Maharaji. And by the way, I believe that even Glen Whittaker became concerned at Maharaji's total lack of response regarding the Jagdeo issue. It's all there on EPO in Glen's correspondence with Anth Ginn. I too found these things hard to believe in the beginning. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: You're wrong about one thing From: Jim To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:52:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But can you accept that there are thousands of premies who enjoy knowledge, feel gratitude for M, of their own free choice and will? Hardly! To think all premies are being deceived, brainwashed....would be a feat never before accomplished by anyone. Ha ha!

Subject: Re: You're wrong about one thing From: ca premie guy To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 20:45:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But can you accept that there are thousands of premies who enjoy knowledge, feel gratitude for M, of their own free choice and will? Hardly! Well...I am disapointed...wading through the attacks and harsh language I found some intelligent and thoughtful people. The message I get here, Jim, is intolerance. A self centered perspective that assumes all others perceive the world the way you do...and an ugly intolerence to other peoples choices. do you condemn other religions than your own too? races? cultures? maybe its not too late to hook up with the Taliban...this kind of intolerence is right at home there. Ugly...

Subject: I recieved Knowledge in 1981... From: Chuck S. To: ca premie guy Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:00:10 (EDT) Email Address: cmsprague@bootbox.net Message: ... and I understand the way you are percieving a lot of things right now. I never went through all the 1970's stuff. I also always knew that M. was a human being like the rest of us. I also understand that, since you feel you have benefited from M's Knowlege, you aren't ready to just abandon him based on allegations that are not yet proved in your own understanding of the facts. But from reading your posts, it seems that there is a lot of information on EPO that you have not read yet. When I discovered EPO three years ago, I spent two years looking it over, slowly assimilating the information, discussing it with my partner, Pat, who was also a Premie. I explored the Indian background from which this all came, which I feel is very important to know in order to understand what it is we all became involved with. During those two years, I also became involved in doing "participation" with our local community, donating both my time and money, helping with video events, and sitting on our local committee, which met weekly. I did my best to try and find my own answers, instead of just believing any old thing I read on the internet. During those two years, I also waited for Maharaji to explain things, as I felt he surely would. But he never did. When I politely inquired about the finances of Maharaji's organization, to verify how my donations were being used, I ran into a wall of secrecy. I watched the revisionism on Maharaji's websites, which I knew to be lies. The final straw was the Atlanta training video; it broke my premie heart for good. I couldn't bend over backwards making excuses anymore. By the time I posted here, I had already decided for myself what was the truth about Maharaji. It would not have occured to me to post here before that, while still a premie, because I don't like heated arguments, and since this is an EX-premie forum, arguements would obviously have been unavoidable. You seem to have chosen to jump in at the deep end, by posting as a Premie. And like many premies who have posted here, you seem to think that we are self-centered and intolerant of other peoples choices and perspectives. I would say you are being a bit unrealistic. You come to an EX-premie forum, and post premie perspectives, and you expect what? To have your ideas go unchallenged? Are people self-centered and intolerant just because they disagree with you, and are ready to tell you why? Have you visited other internet forums? The kind of arguing that goes on here is really rather typical of internet forums, it's not at all unique to this place. This isn't the syncronized world of Knowlege, where everything is supposed to be unanimity and harmoney. It's wonderfully un-sycronized, even the exes disagree with eachother about lots of things. It's the real world here. YOU can believe whatever you like, but you can't expect people here to just say "Gee, that's nice, your perspective is just a valid as anyone elses, too" when in fact they think you are terribly misguided and/or ignorant of the facts. We could all spend our time digging through EPO for you, dishing up the info you seek, but in the end, if you couldn't be bothered to do it yourself, why should we think you would consider any of it anyway? Perhaps you would, but my experience has been that premies come here to assert their point of view, without reading most of what is on EPO, then get angry and leave when people here disagree with them, claiming the very things you have in your post above. Are we really ugly, intolerant Taliban aspirants, just because we dare to disagree with you? Is that true? Villifying us DOES make it easier to ignore us and what we say. Are you going to slink away too now? Or will you persevere to find answers that satisfy you? Yes, some of the people here ARE rude, but lets be honest, so are some of the premies. We were all premies once, and we are not that different from eachother. I would suggest giving yourself some time to thoroughly read EPO. Then, if you still have questions, ask them here. Don't be afraid to consider the big picture. See if the pieces fit together. Be willing to scrutinize everything. Find the answers that really satisfy YOU. You may of course do whatever you like accordingly. But it is rather unreasonable to expect people to not argue with you when they disagree with your beliefs, wouldn't you say? Maharaji doesn't like questions, but questions is what this place if for. But there is no guarentee that the answers are going to be ones you will like to hear. I hope you will ask questions, untill you are satisfied. There is a lot of information that we were never told about, and a lot that is being hidden even now. It's not pleasant finding out all of this stuff many years later, it may seem easier in the short term, to try to try to prove it invalid or ignore it, and only concentrate on the "good" experiences you've had. But it's awful to feel that you have to hide from anything. What kind of truth is Maharaji offering, if it only works when it's not held up to scrutiny? You may find, as I have, that you can continue to have many of the positive experences you've had, without relying on a belief system about the Master. That's for you to discover, in your own good time, if you choose. - Chuck Sprague, Another California Guy, in San Franciso P.S. You can email me if you like, I'm not on a mission to change anyone's mind. I never discuss this stuff with premie friends, unless THEY want to. When I was still a premie, I wouldn't have appreciated anyone pushing their uninvited opinons on me, so I remember that now as an expremie. We all have to make up our own minds regarding the truth about Maharaji.

Subject: Re: I recieved Knowledge in 1981... From: CPG To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: right on chuck, thanks for the input. Very well said. I have spent quite a number of hours reading EPO, but there is a lot there i haven't read. yours was a more cautious approach; I read enough to develop questions then jumped in to expedite getting answers. I EXPECTED people to jump on me and get angry; it doesn't bother me. Neither do the insult but i find it hard to resist responding all in good sport (my bad). i have been online for years but really have never checked out any other forums. i know i said some things that sounds like i painted you all with a broad brush; i really didn't mean it that way but was trying to make a point (my bad again). at the same time i won't be intimidated from getting the information i seek just because there are some assholes in the world. but from your message i would say you have interpretted some of my comments to particular people (intolerence) as being directed to others at large; this is absolutely not true. i said that to jim when I learned he would not accept my right to practice what I choose as I accept his choice to do as he chooses. When that is the case there is no real communication. you and many others here have expressed the opposite and seem to respect differences in opinions and choices. i certainly don't expect anyone to dig up info for me; neither will i be shy about asking what i am looking for. i will continue to check. I have never liked the veil of secrecy surrounding some things about EV/M. Actually finances I haven't felt is one of them; I'd say a third of the years I have been around EV has distributed income/expense statements at various meetings. They haven't lately but I think since they are a non profit this info is available in the public domain for anyone interested. But you not getting a straightforward response, would have gotten me angry too. BTW, I actually am no big fan of premies in general. Many I love and are my best friends; many I avoid like the plague. I learned about a year or two after receiving K to not try and hire premie because I found so many I had to be flakes. But I know many competent ones as well. just the the rest of humanity I guess. I do know I need to go inside and focus on my life energy inside; this will never go away. before k I practiced Zen for a number of years; K blew that experience off the map. I am the kind of guy that once I found a practice that is limited in its depths only b y my time spent on it or desire to focus, I had no need to search for another way, trying all sorts of other things. but somehow i guess I turned out to be a very moral person. and i can seperate my experience from the guy who showed it to me. i want to make sure I am not assoociating with someone who has done/is doing things I consider immoral, and thats why I am here. Thanks

Subject: choices, intolerance, money and CAC... From: Chuck S. To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 22:10:29 (EDT) Email Address: cmsprague@bootbox.net Message: The information on EPO does make for a lot of reading. I didn't mean to sound like you expected us to dig up information for you. There is actually nothing wrong with asking to be pointed in the right direction as to where to look for some information in particular. In the past though, sometimes a premie will find EPO, read just a few things, and then post on the forum all angry and indignant, wanting to put us in our place, without really wanting to discuss anything. People would then dig out information from EPO to address issues brought up by the premie, only to have it be ignored. That kind of wastes everybody's time, and I was just hoping that was not the case here. As for some people being intolerant, I learned quickly that it's often easier to just agree to disagree with some people. For instance, I still practice meditation, and many folks here kept urging me to stop it. Many folks never got anything from it, and they don't understand how anyone could. I think it's true for many of the people who left long ago. I've listened to their reasons, and I do undertand their point of view. They are not "wrong", so I can't argue with them. For many it was tied up with a lot of weird devotional stuff, and for others it simply never did anything for them. If that was their experience, then that's how it is for them. Meditation is a subjective experience, and I accept that. I found though, that if I persisted in talking about meditation HERE, it would bother some people, and they would want to argue about it, insist that it was useless and dangerous and urge me to quit. I felt it was really nobody's business if I meditated or not. I didn't want to argue about it, because I didn't really care if other people agreed with me or not. So I just stopped talking about it here, other than occasionally letting other people know that I still do it, only sans guru. Meditation isn't a forbidden topic here, just a controversial one. There have been some interesting threads about it from time to time. I haven't gotten into discussing it much, as I don't feel I have to prove anything about it's value. Many people here don't care about meditation one way or the other. But if you want to talk about meditation and Maharaji as being just another choice, well, here isn't the place to do that, and expect acceptance. It's called the ex-premie forum, because people have rejected the "choice" of having Maharaji as a Master, and people come here especially for the purpose of being able to talk about that, so it's not the ideal place to look for acceptance of that particular choice. Many of us have family members, friends and even spouses who are still premies, and can't talk freely around them about rejecting Maharaji, so we come here to do it, because that's what this forum is for. So while it may seem intolerant that people here won't accept your choice, just remember, that rejecting Maharaji is what this forum is about. There are other forums, one premie forum and two mixed forums, where people are more relaxed about it. As for finances; I found that on the local level, there was no big problem finding out where the money was going, although I didn't see actual statements. I was told what the expenses were, when I asked. I offered to help with the bookkeeping, and I think I could have seen the statements eventually. But on the larger scene, it was very different. I always assumed that Elan Vital, being a non-profit, would allow people to view their books, because there was nothing to hide. Well, there is absolutely no provision for that, none. I made a few inquiries, just to make sure I didn't just get hold of an incompetent person. There are no EV financial statements made public. There was a vague graph on the website, with no supporting documentation. No financial records, nothing. Nothing in the public domain, nothing at all. I had always assumed that the information was available for the asking, and was horrified to find out otherwise, since I had been donating money for 20 years. I was told point blank by EV that that such information was simply not available. That's a big contrast to other non-profits, which encourage donors to see their books and records, so they can be confident that the money is being spent for the purposes it was intended, and donate even more. If Elan Vital and Maharaji have nothing to hide, then they should hide nothing. It's interesting what you said about the premies. You can think of the exes the same way; a mixed bag, pick the ones you like and avoid the others. Like the rest of humanity! I've been told I have a very Zen approach to meditation, though I've never actually studied Zen. The instructor who showed me the techiques had been a Zen Budhist before becoming a premie, and I think he conveyed that approach to me somewhat, I found him very easy to communicate with. His name was "Poss" Chapman. I loved the simplicity of it all, and the way I was not asked to believe in anything. It seemed harmless. I might still think it was harmless, if I hadn't gotten involved with the local committee, and the weird propagation crap that was going on. Any last thoughts I may have had about Maharaji and his organizations being harmless were ended by two CAC attacks, using scientology techiniques to threaten and silence maharaji's critics, and to frighten them off the web. Instead of being silenced, I filed two reports with law enforcement agencies. As a result of these attacks there is now no doubt in my mind about Maharaji and immoral doings. These attacks also may explain why many people here don't feel comfortable with anyone's "choice" to support Maharaji. You are right to be concerned about being associated with someone who has done/is doing questionable things. I hope you find out what you need to know.

Subject: Re: choices, intolerance, money and CAC... From: CPG To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 23:51:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks again chuck...you and Pat both hhave very level heads and I appreciate it this input. I realized today I haven't spent as much time in the last 21 years thinking/talking about some of these issues (eg is he god?) as I have in the last few days. Its blowing my mind and making me think, and i love it. thanks to all of you. I think I remember meeting you and Pat in the early 80's, and cheers again to both of you.

Subject: Excellent response, CPG From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 21:17:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I want to make sure I am not assoociating with someone who has done/is doing things I consider immoral, and thats why I am here.'' I'm Chuck's partner. We've been together ever since he got K in 81. I got it in 73 and knew about it for two years before that so I got the full Hindu whammy. I also went through all the revisions and thought I understood them. Like Chuck said, we found EPO a few years ago at about the same time that we started participating on the local premie committee. The combination of the premies' dysfunctionality, the secrecy surrounding the finances (the figures are not made public by the way) and deceit involved in ''propagation'' is what drove us away. Then we began to read EPO a bit more seriously. The Hindu background is what first made me realize there was something really fishy going on. The other stuff (Jagdeo, Monica, the blondes, the manslaughter, the booze, meat, drugs and shady finances) at first meant nothing to me. Reading M's revisionist history on his first website however really did shake me. It just seemed so unnecessarily deceitful and coy. Sleazy. The schizophrenic attitude towards ''propagation'' was probably the most ugly. I had gone along with Rawat's evolution from ''guru is greater than god'' and ''this time I will not be crucified'' (yes, he actually said that) to the Perfect Master and then the Master. I went back into the cult because I thought that the next step in his evolution would be to say that K was more important that the master. To me the idea of a ''master'' is really embarassingly undemocratic and feudalistic in the west. Instead I heard him say that we ''should never doubt the purity of the master,'' ''believe in the master - belief is relief'' and that we are like flies caught in a spider-web and the more we struggle the more we get trapped and only the master can save us. Really primitive Hinduism. but when it came to propagation the story was completely different. You know what the propaganda videos are like. Swans and waterfalls and New Age music and no mention that you cannot be saved except by the mercy of the master. Lots of pap. Maharaji drove me away himself and only then did I find that the private Rawat was very different from the public persona of the Master. But his deceit, cynicism and absolute dishonesty become more apparent the more you put the whole picture together. Once his bad side had been exposed to me by himself and I saw that his ugly secretive cult was weird because the rot started at the top, then I was more willing to listen to the revelations about Jagdeo, the manslaughter etc. I've met Michael Dettmers and can tell you that he would not have lied about something like the manslaughter of the cyclist in India. As Jim said, why would he say something so obviously horrible if it were not true? Rawat could sue him for libel. Dettmers stood to gain nothing by telling of that incident. And the incident clearly indicates that Rawat is a selfish, irresponsible and greedy coward. I consider him immoral enough to be very ashamed of once being associated with him. Chuck and I still enjoy meditating and it's much easier without the Maharajism religion. I hope you find your own way without the baggage of a Master but I won't treat you any differently if you don't.

Subject: Re: Excellent response, CPG From: CPG To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 23:40:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow, thanks Pat... I love your message because you seem to speak from you...just laying out your experience....so refreshing...btw i think I met you guys in the very early 80's...nice to see you are still together, and hope you are happy and healthy...seems that way...cheers things are really bubbling for me right now...digesting a lot...more later

Subject: Yes, we're healthy and happy, thanks From: PatC To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:47:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are too but of course now I'm itching to know who you are. I honestly don't care one way or the other what your eventual conclusion about all this will be but I do care that people become independent and free again and learn to think for themselves which is something that not too many of the premies I know do. Many of them here in San Francisco are kind of squashed and unhappy or confused and nervous. However interesting M's trip once was it is no longer very healthy. My basic disagreement with the whole thing is that is so primitive and un-American. Maybe that's because I'm an immigrant and see that most Americans are pretty happy folks while most premies are not. And of course I can't stand the lack of democracy. I think the thing that got to me most was when M said, ''Never criticise the master.'' Oh boy. I didn't come to the US to be told that I can't speak my mind when I think it's necessary. That's too much like being back in a banana republic. Anyway good luck and have fun. For me leaving the ''master'' was just as exciting as first finding him. Very liberating. I feel as if I am breathing freely and naturally in a long time. :) PS Did you see the CAC attacks that Chuck mentioned? They were a series of websites copied from the Scientologists attacks on the exes pretending to be sites warning against the dangers of cyberstalking. Twelve of us were named and put in with real child-molesters and real creepy stalkers. The cult published our pictures, home addresses and phone numbers and work places and told people to contact our employers. They also published a pic of one ex's young child and blackmailed him into closing down his ex-premie website. Now that's playing dirty and it put Chuck and me off M's cult for good especially when our business suffered because of publishing our business address and website. Mr Rawat can play hardball when he wants and he did with us and I really have no sympathy for him at all since then.

Subject: Well said Chuck. From: Richard To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 16:51:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't imagine a more compassionate or intelligent post to a practicing premie. Your last sentence sums it up precisely. We all have to make up our own minds regarding the truth about Maharaji. Therein lies our individual self empowerment.

Subject: But will he persevere? From: Chuck S. To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:31:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I almost didn't bother replying at all, because I figured he would probably be offended when people disagreed with him, and just stop posting. That is what premies often do here. But he seemed honestly to be looking for real answers, and I don't blame him for not wanting to just believe any old thing anyone says. He also got K-Lite in the 1980s, like I did, so I understand how he sees things differently from the old timers who got K in the 70's. I also assume he's gotten something out of the experience, as many people who left recently did, which is why they stayed so long. I can relate to that too. I feel he could benifit from taking the time to look at all the info on EPO, but it's overwhelming to do it all at once. And posting here as a premie is also diving in at the deep end. Even if everyone were civil to him, they would be certain to disagree with many of his views, and that can be very overwhelming. Premies aren't used to having their belief's scrutinized, and are easily offended when it happens. I don't think they expect to be asked so many questions. Add to that the sheer number of responses, and it can easily be overwhelming. I know it took me two years to just assimilate a lot of the information, and face some ugly facts. I didn't like it, but it was necessary in the long run. I'm willing to give other people the time to do the same, and I really just wanted to let him know that. The fact that people here disagree with him isn't something that he should find suprising, and I hope he doesn't take it too personally. It takes time to get to know people here, and for them to get to know you. It all takes time, and I'm just saying, that's o.k. It has to be, because that's just the way it is. Trying to force it can often have bad effects. Understanding is a process, and people go through it at their own speed, and don't even reach all of the same conclusions. The only important thing to me is that they be willing to truely examine the big picture, and decide for themselves, without hiding from anything. I believe only good can come from that.

Subject: You're wrong about one thing, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:23:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bloody brilliant response as usual but I slightly disagree with one point. You said: 4) Re 'inner peace' and 'truth' and all that, you haven't been reading enough. There are lots of exes who still believe in that shit. Many don't many do. And we argue about it. Big deal. Maybe we argue about meditation but I don't think anyone argues about having peace of mind and being happy. In fact I think the moment you give up trying to get it, you realize it comes standard - just part of being a sensible human being. Rev Rawat is selling the equivalent of bottled air. The only result of his advice is mental confusion and struggle for something that people already have (unless they are not well of course - and there are plenty of unhappy and unwell premies too.) Feeling good is the norm. It comes naturally. All this talk from premies about how fucked up people are and how much they need K and peace etc really is irritating. What a hideous hell this universe would be if humans' happiness depended on a Hindu conman. What BS that humans need anything that they weren't already born with. Rawat's selling bottle air. The vast majority of exes I know (nearly half of the regular posters) are pretty cheerful, loving and well-loved folks. People need M and K like they need another hole in their heads. That's why it's a scam - because premies are stuck trying to do something that they would automatically have if they just stopped trying so hard. I hate conning human beings so I think I'll start a cult for frogs. The Scuba-diving cult. Do you think I could convince enough frogs that they need scuba gear? Nope, they're amphibians - perfectly suited to their life-niche just as humans are perfectly suited to theirs without needing anything extra. It's a cult.

Subject: ' Ribid1' From: kermitanand To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:22:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: You're wrong about one thing, Jim From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 05:01:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scuba diving frogs! Brilliant - go for it:)

Subject: Thanks Jim...this is BIG stuff... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 00:14:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once again, thanks Jim.....I think this is HUGE, and will eventally be looked at as a major turing point in rawats con game..... There are a number of point I would like to make, but it's too late at night to respond much more right now..... I will post more in a day or two about this, but I think this is very big, and will be another major 'drip' for many people... Once again, GREAT WORK!!!!

Subject: Thanks for having made me cry. From: Sulla To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:08:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to all of you who responded to California Guy. Completely agree with you. I'm really touched by you guys, how you stepped forward for me, for all of us. I also received K in the 80's but if I (with or without K ) would know about all the hidden staff I would not follow him. How someone who seeks spiritual grow is going to have an immoral person as example of life. The person who seeks can fail, and inspired by the guide can then stand up and go on, but the MASTER OF PERFECTION? If he fails he has to quit and be honest and recognize the failure before all his followers, and tell them that he is not worth of worship because he was a lie and a mere dream for us. Don't California Guy realize that for me and many people the dream would be beautiful, if it were true. Yes, he sense it because he is so afraid to be hurt by the truth he is starting to see. But don't be afraid you will be able to handle it, be truthful with yourself, with your inner little voice, with the human values, or since as followers we can be excused if we don't have any of it, at least use your common sense. Denying or excusing immorality and dishonesty so evident is not going to keep the dream alive. Better cry lot of tears after we allowed the dream to be shattered than cry those invisible tears of surrenderment to tyranny for whatever understandable or not reasons. Worst for those people that knowing everything, excusing or not the inexcusable had decide to slavery themselves to the slave master. Don't know if this matters, but right now I love you, I love you all. Thanks for all your efforts, thanks for everything. Thanks for make me cry.

Subject: Leaders Magazine lets CEOs write their own copy. From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 22:32:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think its quite clear what sort of publication this is.... There is something seedy and sad about Maha crowing over an sycophantic article printed in a glossy advertising rag. It costs $17000 for a single page ad (their smallest). They talk a lot about the profile of their readership as controlling a significant amount of wealth... I wonder what attracted maharaji to them. I bet he reads this pap and wants to be like them. I mean.. lets have a close look at the quality of their journalism... this link tells what they require from people submitting articles .... http://www.leadersmag.com/Editorial/Requirements/requirements.html Loaf

Subject: Question From: Pathetic is an understatement To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 16:32:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you ask if Rawat or someone on his behalf paid money to have that article put in Leaders Magazine? It appears some money may have changed hands, thus getting Leaders to publish an article after doing zero research on whether anything the goo said was true or not. It's clear that the circulation of that magazine is tiny. The whole point is to try to make money selling the re-prints (the premies will buy them and give them to the unwary), and use it to build his new website (and image) around. It is just so pathetic. I think any premie who thinks about it is really embarrassed by this latest gimick of the goo, getting a puff piece published in a magazine with no editorial standards which is distributed free to the super-rich. Disgusting.

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:16:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations. You did a fabulous job finding and talking to this guy. There's one thing I don't understand though. Who write thoses articles for Leaders Magazine ? Journalists, no ? But any journalist worthy of his profession, when writing a piece, would check background and sources. Something here seems rather strange. It's unusual, to say the least, for the subject of an article - or for his friends, associates or family - to write his own piece and send it to a paper or a mag to be printed. Am I missing something ?

Subject: read this please Darrell Brown From: Susan Haupt To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:35:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As one of the many ex members of Divine Light Mission from the seventies who was hurt by this cult and its leader I am upset that any magazine in this day and age would publish an article without at least running a search engine on the subject of the article. We were used, and made fools of, and so were you, all by Mr. Rawat and his followers. You owe it to your readership to tell the other side. It can only enhance your credibility to take responsibility for publishing the article and you do not want to to be the unwitting tool which enables even one individual to be sucked into this cult. Also, read my story on ex.premie.org to see how Mr. Rawat responded to my letter regarding child sexual abuse within the cult.

Subject: very interesting James From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:32:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My suspicions are either that it was done as a favour to a high ranking Leaders Premie, or that money changed hands somewhere. I doubt if Darrell or a self-respecting editor would run a vacuuous piece like that unless it was propped up with advertising revenue from a premie company (or the promise of it). For a lot of these 'in-flight' type mags, editorial space is the bait, but advertising space is the catch. They probably let it slip under the net thinking it was another non- threatening vanity published piece about a CEO of something interesting. Its all so much water under the bridge. they only care about the adverts really.. affect their advertising.. and you will get their attention. Is it a monthly mag ? Circulation figures ? cover price ? Free distribution to executive lounges ?

Subject: Here's some of the info you want From: cq To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 13:00:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Leaders' magazine has a total circulation figure of 35,238, as of June 2001. Government recipients include President, Prime Minister, King, Queen, Prince, Emperor, Premier, Amir, Grand Duke, Paramount Ruler, Sultan, Governor General, Chancellor, Minister, Ambassador, Commissioner, Secretary, Chairman, Senator, Representative, Member of Parliament, Diet and other Senior Executive, Legislative and Judicial Officials. Religious recipients include Pope, Dalai Lama, President, Ayatollah, Patriarch, Rabbi, Cardinal, Archbishop and other worldwide religious leaders. Education recipients include University President, Chancellor, Director, Chairman, Dean and other Senior Administrators. Labor recipients include Union President, Secretary General and other Senior Labor Executives. Editorial Policy LEADERS is the only magazine that deals with the broad range of leadership thoughts and visions of the world's most influential people. It is written by the world's leaders and has been described as 'the exclusive boardroom of the best and the brightest.' The purpose of LEADERS Magazine is to present thoughts to a worldwide audience of their contemporaries who can put to use their ideas and philosophies for the betterment of mankind. LEADERS Magazine is a forum of thought. The articles and interviews that appear in the magazine represent the con sidered thoughts of the world leadership community. These experts are well recognized as being at the top of their re spective field and are chosen to contribute for that reason, without commercial considerations. No one is paid to write or be interviewed and LEADERSaccepts no remuneration from any editorial feature. LEADERS Magazine is a careful blend of international business, management, lifestyle, and technology. In most every case, the treatment of these subjects in LEADERS is different from the homogination of ideas found in most other publications. The focus of the LEADERS audience is upon: Coping with change Developing a vision Creating alignments and coalitions Setting directions Energizing strategies Creating a profitable future Thus, the editorial content of LEADERS focuses upon the future. It does not record events. It does not provide historical background. Instead, LEADERSacknowledges that the reader is well aware of the antecedents and origins of subjects covered. The world's leadership community most certainly is the most over-communicated group of people. They have virtually unlimited information resources at their disposal. BPA figures here (left of screen) www.leadersmag.com/Editorial/editorial.html

Subject: Re: Here's some of the info you want From: Happie Frenchie To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:57:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most interesting, thank you.So that explains it : no journalists.

Subject: and 'unaudited distribution' From: Loaf To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 22:51:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks cq... I found their website and had a rummage about myself. Their distribution profile and figures are un-audited.. so its just their word. What this basically means is that they pump up the mag as being FOR the influential, and then simply mail a copy to all the rich people they can think of.. and count them as 'readers' This is a simple manoevre to keep the advertising price UP. There is NO WAY they would print an in depth follow up article to the rawat piece... it simply isnt what their mag is about. Very neat point Frenchie ! Loafie

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:48:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the interesting report, Jim. You sure earned your pay on this one.;) I was 99.9% sure Leaders was a real magazine. What is most revealing and frankly comforting is that even a group of world-savy people who are used to industrial strength spin and BS were duped by M. Now I don't feel so bad about jumping on the Good Ship Lollypop 30 years ago. Because Leaders wanted the exclusive, they have missed a few pertinent details that a web search would have turned up. Oops! I now think that it cost Rawat & company $0 to get the 'interview' run. The real cost will come later when the news media sees this new open door to Chez Rawat. Then, instead of logging on here like a bunch of winey loosers (sic), we can all watch the drama unfold on CNN, BBC, FoxNews and People Magazine. And now we go live to Wolf Blitzer in Malibu.

Subject: Like I said below... From: Marianne To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 17:26:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The newsworthiness of the Captain Rawat story just escalated, given this article, the new foundation, the attempt to seek IRS charitable tax deduction status, and Rawat's attempt to recast his image once again. Marianne

Subject: Re: Leaders Magazine admits they were had From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:30:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim That is incredible progress you have made. My bowler hat off to you mate! I hope that when Leaders send you the full article they will allow you to on-send it to other interested parties (i.e. readers of epo and F7) and that if they send it to you via pdf format they will allow printing. I am sure you will have noticed by now that tprf does not allow printing in their version of the Adobe pdf file. cheers OP

Subject: Other magazines From: CEO To: Opie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:42:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of this ilk (corporate bs) should be notified or at least made privy to this mags article (blunder). That could stir up some input from their piers and make them think hard about a commentary on the article or even an apology. Interesting how most of the interview was sent up from the M camp. Gee, I could'nt see that, duh. I remember someone once saying that the first chance M gets to get back into the public spotlight, that it will be his fall (on his terms).

Subject: Re: Other magazines From: Opie To: CEO Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:20:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, lots of cliches come to mind here Putting one's foot in one's mouth; shooting oneself in the foot. Maybe all that feet kissing has gone to the mind! :) I rather suspect that Prem Rawat may want to go to ground after this hilarious debacle. Another 30 years of not giving interviews? OP

Subject: www. snarg.net From: jazz police To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:28:18 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: back to the roots of being psychedelic. chaos club

Subject: wicked site From: mz ayahuasca To: jazz police Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 13:52:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: do you know the people who did this site? some interesting uses of flash there, love to see the .fla maybe they could give mr rawat a few lessons oh by the way the actual address is http://www.snarg.net

Subject: play along From: jazz police To: mz ayahuasca Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 03:24:06 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Sorry, i don't know. JP

Subject: Quality link From: hamzen To: jazz police Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 17:35:14 (EDT) Email Address: hamzen20012@yahoo.co.uk Message: Best link I've come across in ages, fancy e-mailing?

Subject: Agreed: Something's Fishy in Cultville From: Kilgore Trout To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:46:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just spent about 15 minutes in various search engines trying to find mention of The Leader. NOTHING found. Current Theory: Finding out more about Henry O Dormann may prove interesting. Does anyone know Manhattan well enough to verify the address to be business rather than residential? Reverse lookup fot Leaders phone # yields both Leaders and Mr. Dormann. Mr. Dormann seems to have published one book which is nothing more than a compilation of quotes from famous people.

Subject: Re: Agreed: Something's Fishy in Cultville From: Stinky Fish To: Kilgore Trout Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:14:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe his new PR firm BOUGHT the defunct title and never really published it (sent it out to any CEOs or anything), but just produced this dummy mark-up, and are selling just the article, but no one can get the entire magaizine because it really doesn't exist. I found Leaders online through a Google search, but it seemed to stop publication in 1999. Anyone seen the magazine? Borders Books has never head of it.

Subject: Sorry fishies, there's no conspiracy From: Crab Cake To: Stinky Fish Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:58:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Leaders is a real publication. It's circulation and authenticity are independantly verified by BPA, a long established and reputable publication auditing firm. Leaders is circulated free to the high end audience in order justify high ad prices. So there are no news stand copies available. Search engine hint for Kilgore: the magazine is Leaders, not The Leaders and Google turns up plenty of URLs. Sorry, fishies but Elvis did not kill the Kennedy brothers to hush up his affair with Marilyn Monroe and subsequent parenting of Michael Jackson with his housekeeper. He is still alive and living in a Las Vegas penthouse, though. I know because he told me in a dream. Crab Cake (aka Richard)

Subject: Thanks, Crabby From: Kilgore To: Crab Cake Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:17:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I now see the error of my ways. Also, I've appreciated your input on the subject matter. Seems like there's always someone here with professional expertise on about any subject. There isn't a conspiracy but it still stinketh to high samadi!

Subject: stinketh to high samadi LOL [nt] From: Crabby To: Kilgore Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:50:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Losing the search engines? From: David Punshon To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:41:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probobly stating the obvious. Is Prem Rawat losing the title Maharaji? Guess it would be a novel way of cutting ties with old baggage. How long before there is absolutely no mention of the name Maharaj Ji on his new Foundation's web page - so that new people have no idea about his dubious past. Ingenious way of losing EPO perhaps... now we are ex-Prem Rawat Foundation... EPRF and EPO... all the best Dave

Subject: Re: Losing the search engines? From: JHB To: David Punshon Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:51:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said before, even before I amended EPO to add the foundation name, searching for Prem Rawat gives prominent position to EPO, so if that was his strategy it was poorly researched. John.

Subject: remember when EPO was hacked? From: John, Do you To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 13:00:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John: The case may be that some research was attempted, but remember when word came out that there was an article in the offing, and concurrently, the EPO site was down for a couple of weeks? I think EPO was hacked so research would be stymied, because even if the search was done using 'prem rawat,' EPO would've shown up; hence, the necessity to shut down EPO during the research window of opportunity. You can thank Mr. Industrial Espionage Man himself, Jean-Marie Bonthous, for that and for, most likely, the connection to Leaders mag. It's all one big huge spin dry in the spiritual Maytag washing machine they got going. Consider it a corporate circle jerk in the land of big swinging dicks.

Subject: Re: Losing the search engines? From: Dave Punshon To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:38:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: great one John, good to hear that, well done ! Dave

Subject: EPO could also become known as... From: la-ex To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:39:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the prem rawat watch team, or anything else that would come up on a search engine...

Subject: how about Rawat Catcher? (nt) From: cq To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:45:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how about Rawat Catcher? (nt)

Subject: EPO always one metatag ahead of the Rawat game [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:12:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I object.. is #1 with Google ! [nt] From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:53:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Has anyone actually read the article? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:08:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just went through the article again, really read it this time. At first, I just skimmed it. I've got to tell you, it's incredible. I mean, it really is in a couple of big -- giant -- ways. If you read it with a mind to what just any open, interested, intelligent, reasonable person, not particularly cynical even, just someone hearing this guy, Rawat, offering the secret of happiness, as he claims outright right off the top, you see that this is the most evasive, empty nothing shell you've ever seen in your life! I promise. I'd love to say more about some of what I see in it, but I can't tonight. Sometime tomorrow, I guess. But, really, as soon as you look you see it -- there's simply nothing there. Check it out, you'll see what I mean.

Subject: Partly From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 15:49:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only pages I got were 165 and 167 then it ends mid-question. I can't find the rest of the interview. I also want to know what is on page 166. Is that a $17,000 full-page ad for the Prem Rawat Foundation? I'm not interested in buying the PRF print version as it it will just be more of Rev Rawat's pap. I want a hard-copy of the mag to see if he bought an ad.

Subject: finally got round to it From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 13:37:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The interviewer who asked this question: 'What does 'Maharaji' mean, and why do so many people acknowledge you as the leader in the field of self-knowledge?' just COULDN'T be a real reporter. Unbiased? I think not. M a 'leader in the field of self-knowledge' ??? What's the interviewer implying, that the Goo's more self-aware than anyone else? Don't make me laugh. The only thing he's mastered is how to avoid facing up to the consequences of his past actions. 'Leader in the field of self-knowledge' ??? - what? up there with Freud and Jung and Socrates? Laughable. Simply laughable.

Subject: could really impress his fellow LEADERS From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 20:39:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: by inviting them all over to his palatial estate and showing that now secret video of him doing the Hindu Waddle in his mala.

Subject: I bet they would be ! From: Happie Frenchie To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:27:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is hilarious. I'm picturing the scene and I can't stop laughing. I ain't kidding.

Subject: That is SOOOOOO good! From: Jim To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 20:42:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is like a wild, 70's Heinlen novel. It's crazy. Pure crazy. Second time today I laughed out loud -- for real -- reading this forum.

Subject: they could ogle the Lord over at... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 20:57:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Drek's boob site..... BTW, I wonder if TED Farkel gets 'Leaders' down in Alabama....

Subject: You guys are soooo rude :C) [nt] From: PatC To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:25:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Puts Him exactly From: Leaders Mag To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:23:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where he and the PPRF wants him exactly to be....in the lap of the exclusive rich. He needs money, he needs new rich blood, what better way to be accepted and attributed credibility than to be in this particular magazine? Instant propagation for the new, no strings attached auto-knowledge, complete with tax deductable contribution status.

Subject: Those CEO's that got there... From: Yea but, To: Leaders Mag Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:10:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: legitamately will see right through his BS when they research this used car salesman's curriculum vitae. They did'nt get where they got by following some trinket seller around and kissing his feet and I don't think that they're going to buy his line of crap about self-knowledge. He's in the wrong mag for that. He belongs in NewAge or Self-Help. He's got a better shot at getting on Oprah than getting some of these folks in bed with him. They're not idiots. And is it just me, or has his head gotten bigger (literally-not figuratively). He looks to be in competition with Sen Ted Kennedy (D-Mass).

Subject: Rawat's head getting bigger From: PatC To: Yea but, Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:12:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''And is it just me, or has his head gotten bigger (literally-not figuratively). He looks to be in competition with Sen Ted Kennedy (D-Mass).'' Maybe a big head is the price one pays for covering up a case of manslaughter.

Subject: Re: Rawat's head getting bigger From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 01:02:08 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Ouch!!! That hurts. Good one Pat C. Ciao Marshall

Subject: for sleuths From: Kerry To: Leaders Mag Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 21:19:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.renesch.com/Aha6.html interesting link. Leaders appears to be THE most exclusive magazine. Wouldn't someone have carefully reviewed the editorial? My first opinion was that the magazine content was narrow, maybe it is for their own good reasons. Wouldn't the editors resonate quite well with M's style? Further investigation regarding Dormann's (publisher of Leaders, and I think the main source of interviews) style reveals that he may have a habit of attributing quotes to the wrong people, something pointed out by a critic of Dormann's book of quotes. A roughly jumped to conclusion would be that Leaders don't care about the content, because leader-readers rarely check for accuracy. Dormann (33rd Degree IGH Washington D.C. Mason) seems to be very well connected. He involves himself in senstive/corrupt political issues. Two items stood out at first glance - the recurrence of pharmaceutical and spiritual themes.

Subject: Re: for sleuths - very interesting From: PatC To: Kerry Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 03:48:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Kerry for that interesting link to an article by John E. Renesch (a San Francisco writer, futurist, and business philosopher.) He writes: Recently I received a special issue of Leaders magazine. This magazine is the ultimate 'exclusive' periodical. It goes only to heads of state (kings and queens, presidents, prime ministers, ruling princes and princesses and other potentates), leaders of multi-national corporations, leaders of worldwide religions, international union leaders and thought leaders around the world. You cannot subscribe to Leaders, even if you wanted to. You are granted a subscription base upon your credential. Maybe the phrase ''leaders of worldwide religions'' was Rev Rawat's entree but the whole thing smells fishier by the minute. Renesch is a joke. Oh sorry, I better be PC - he is actually reputable in the Bay Area where people actually believe in the New Paradigm (puke - just another scam for ''your eyes are getting sleepier while I rob you blind.) On second thoughts I will describe the four men pictured on the cover of the current issue of Leaders mag as aliens who have taken over the mortal vessels of sleazy frontmen and middle-managers like senior VPs and corporate ''spokes-persons.'' If such an ''exclusive'' mag existed it would NOT have a website where the hoi-polloi can see it. Give me a break. It's smells as fishy as a herring run or is that a red herring? The E-Newsletter for the Awakening Workplace www.renesch.com/Aha6.html

Subject: Leaders and Radiant Energy and Enron (OT?) From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 13:11:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did a little searching on Google and found the following article about Radiant Energy. I first found the Radiant Energy article then searched Google for Radiant + Enron and came up with the Yahoo Financial page. Looks like Radiant is in a bit of trouble. Radiant Energy article for Leaders Magazine: http://www.reliantenergy.com/news/speeches/spch-mgzn.asp Yahoo Financial Re: Radiant and Enron biz.yahoo.com/n/r/rei.html

Subject: did you notice the 'corporate aircraft' article? From: la-ex To: Leaders Mag Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 21:10:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the Jan-Feb-March section of articles in development is one entitled- 'Corporate Aircraft:Valuable tool for the CEO' What are the odds that the author is mr. prem rawat, head of the prem rawat foundation.... anyone taking bets, or giving odds?

Subject: Also, no 'historical background' ...hmmmm From: la-ex To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 00:14:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: did anyone notice how 'Leaders', conveniently states that since they are moving forward and interested in the future, they provide no 'historical background'? I wonder if that is because some of the characters they profile may have 'historical backgrounds' that they do not want to be known.....perhaps mr. prem rawat, for starters....?

Subject: Yes, for sure From: Jim To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 00:25:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The only thing, the thing that makes this so strange, is that some of the past subjects seem to be legit and, in some cases, actual big shots. I don't know. This 'no historical background' thing, which is stupid as hell really -- I mean, it's ALL historical background. What are they talking about? Even the Rawat article is all about where he came from (in the most bullshit and whitewashed terms). But the other thing about it is that it's just like M's first web site where he gingerly touches on the past even as he scoffs at the idea of presenting any real history, facts, facts and facts, enough to be checked out. What was it he said there? 'This isn't a history lesson'? Personally, I think that's just a coincidence or maybe just emblematic of the visionary uniqueness of all great leaders. :)

Subject: intuitively speaking... From: x-wired To: Leaders Mag Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 20:09:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what a great place for M. to peddle his wares. He can gleefully fleece the small-minded elite readers of this 'erotic' mag and they can all go down the plug hole together. There are no leaders here, just money grubbers with tunnel vision.

Subject: tprf.org From: WhoIs To: Leaders Mag Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 12:43:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Prem Rawat Foundation P.O. Box 241498 Los Angeles, CA 90024 US Domain Name: TPRF.ORG Administrative Contact: Registrar Services webmaster@tprf.org The Prem Rawat Foundation P.O. Box 241498 Los Angeles, CA 90024 US Phone: 01 310 392 5700 Fax: Technical Contact: Registrar Services webmaster@tprf.org The Prem Rawat Foundation P.O. Box 241498 Los Angeles, CA 90024 US Phone: 01 310 392 5700 Fax: Record updated on 2002-02-01 13:25:57. Record created on 2002-02-01. Record expires on 2004-02-01. Database last updated on 2002-04-07 12:35:07 EST. Domain servers in listed order UDNS1.ULTRADNS.NET 204.69.234.1 UDNS2.ULTRADNS.NET 204.74.101.1

Subject: Again From: Here they are To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:15:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PPRF vip's Linda H. Pascotto Director / President Stephen Sordoni Director / Vice President Scott Mazo Director / Treasurer Karen Pearse Director / Secretary Brad A. Griffin Director And doesn't "Foundation" sound more credible, like the J Paul Getty Foundation or the Packer Foundation or some such? So newbies wouldn't be joining a cult, per se, they would just be giving a little contibution to a a tax free foundation?

Subject: Calling Donner From: Marianne To: Here they are Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:05:48 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Donner: Director of the new foundation is Brad A. Griffin. Doesn't that name ring a bell for you, way back to GR days? Marianne

Subject: Re: Calling Donner From: michael donner To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:40:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, i know brad. he is living in boulder area now. we was in a commercial plane crash and lived...unbelievable and is either completely or mostly recovered. he has continued to be active on and off over the years as far as i know and made very good money in construction...and ..very nice and simple person with a big heart.

Subject: Brad's amazing story - OT From: Richard To: michael donner Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:55:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was recently talking to an old pwk friend in Boulder who told me about Brad. He was on a flight that crashed in Iowa. Most were killed but Brad found himself standing in a cornfield away from the crash. His story was folded into the film Fearless in which the Jeff Bridges character walks away from a plane crash and continues through life unafraid.

Subject: Re: Brad's amazing story - OT From: Vicki To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 15:43:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was living in the town where the plane crashed. My husband was the manager for the overnight company that coordinated and retrieved the belongings and personal effects of the passengers. I went to the crash site and hanger where they were housed and it was unbelievable. The airlines have recreated the malfunction and conditions and to date, no one has ever been able to bring the plane down like the pilot did. It was United Airlines flight 232. I saw this tragedy bring a petty, competive, ego driven town together and do amazing things for the victims and their families. Then the White House called and it was a vicious competition to see which emergency dept got to accept the award. They all ended up going.

Subject: I knew Brad too From: Marianne To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:15:11 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: He lived in the Kalamazoo ashram on Summit Street, then on to Grand Rapids and then Boulder. He was a big influence on me. If you are reading this Brad, hello and how are you? I heard about the plane crash from friends we have in common in SF. Glad he's doing well. Marianne

Subject: Oops From: Marianne To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:16:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Left out his stint in Detroit. He was there the day M got pied too.

Subject: Re: Oops From: Moll of Mole To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 15:48:18 (EDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: Now boys and girls lets not get too excited here, Brad is now a honcho of the new order and as such will carry the corrupt thinking that goes with the job. My little gossip queens down in Aussie land tell me that when his guruness sent Brad on a mission down to Amaroo some time back to sort out the mess (which his guruness had nothing to do with)the very first thing Brad did was to steal some other premies girl friend ( a young highly impressionable lass half his age)and have his wicked way with her. He heartlessly dump her some months later when he had finished. I wonder if his dear wife back in Colorado had any idea of his goings on. Still I must admit some of my best sex was with coordinators and honchos. rjc if you are reading this do you remember that time we did it in the elevator at the broadripple when his guruness was in the building, that was such a buzz. It is interesting how his guruness has gone from the divine light mission to elan vital and now to his own foundation each time blaming the shift on the premies becoming too bureaucratic and separating him from his beloved premies. He has not seemed to twig that it just might have something to do with him and the way he is, incompetent and disorganised. Another thing that is interesting is the lovely letters from is devotees on his new site, most are people that are either in his full time employment or past honchoes. The words seem to be pains takingly put together as though not to offend. You compare them with expressions of gratitude on ELK which are from the rank and file out in the back water and are in anybody's terms absolute drivel. I find the difference interesting it would mean to me that his guruness has no idea what his beloved grass roots premies are experiencing nor does he particularly care. Mole from within

Subject: is a constant source of embarrassment From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 07:47:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to his prisoners/membership. Now, these poor people have to come up with a spin on this funky magazine article. THE LEADER may or may not exist. An actual hard copy is needed for proof. As mentioned below, what is its source of revenue? Vito, owner of Vito's Pizza, certainly won't be advertising in it. Does anyone recognize any of the leaders in the picture? Most of the membership/prison population will just accept the fact that their MAIN MAN was interviewed in a 'fancy' CEO type pub. They may even be given a printout of the article. Will anyone ever see the actual magazine? Until proven wrong, I think somehow the Malibu Maha 'paid for it'. I wonder if this isn't the beginning of the end for his alias of Maharaji.

Subject: I remember Maharaji saying... From: Chuck S. To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:28:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That he was not a leader, or even an inspirational speaker. Now he seems to be claiming to be both. Too ironic. There are copies of the magazine for sale on M's site, so I would guess that it actually exists (or at least, one issue does). On the Leaders website, there are pics and sample articles from back issues, for the year 2001. It looks like a vanity publication to me. Isn't the picture they used of Rawat unusually awful? Look at it close up, in the Acrobat file. The smile looks unnatural, and his eyes especially, look uncomfortable. I am not just saying that to diss him, I think objectively, it's just not a great photo. They have so many photos of M that look so much better, I can't believe they used THAT one.

Subject: the photo From: Will To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 13:07:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The photo has been touched up. On Prem's right side, left side to the viewer, the side teeth and the white collar should both be in shadow, but they are both bright white. It makes the photo look unnatural, which it is.

Subject: Alias--soap salesman From: Lard of the Soap Flakes To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not a leader; I am not an inspirational speaker. I am not even a god, contrary to popular belief among my sales staff. What I am is a Diamond distributor of Hamway, an up-line mogul for Quickstar --- -ttttttt and a motivation speaker for E-biz (otherwise known as the ecstacy business. Instead of turning water into wine, I turn foot water and bath water into bottled frenzy. My real business is multi-level marketing. I soak my feet in the water. As the water filters down through the hierarchy, it becomes more diluted and more expensive. All those who drink my foot water, and lest I forget, bathwater are truly blessed for they have lost all common sense. Of course people do drink foot and bathwater in India because there is nothing else, but the charna-amit scam has been very successful in the west. People will believe anything. Even my wife is simple. I forced her to say that the red carpet was blue--she believed it after awhile too! Soon, my devotees will only know me as Mr. Rawat, not Maharaji. Even my belowed Durga Ji will not remember my old name, Mahwhatchamacallit my old lover, Monawho?

Subject: Alias--soap salesman From: Lard of the Soap Flakes To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 17:39:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not a leader; I am not an inspirational speaker. I am not even a god, contrary to popular belief among my sales staff. What I am is a Diamond distributor of Hamway, an up-line mogul for Quickstar --- -ttttttt and a motivation speaker for E-biz (otherwise known as the ecstacy business. Instead of turning water into wine, I turn foot water and bath water into bottled frenzy. My real business is multi-level marketing. I soak my feet in the water. As the water filters down through the hierarchy, it becomes more diluted and more expensive. All those who drink my foot water, and lest I forget, bathwater are truly blessed for they have lost all common sense. Of course people do drink foot and bathwater in India because there is nothing else, but the charna-amit scam has been very successful in the west. People will believe anything. Even my wife is simple. I forced her to say that the red carpet was blue--she believed it after awhile too! Soon, my devotees will only know me as Mr. Rawat, not Maharaji. Even my belowed Durga Ji will not remember my old name, Mahwhatchamacallit my old lover, Monawho?

Subject: Now THIS is funny beyond words From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:27:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: ET Ivete Belfort Mattos From Sao Paolo, Brazil Sometimes I have no notion of time. At these moments it is important for me to look back over my life. Either that or change your medication, sweetie. As it happened 20 years ago, I was in a theatre crying during the screening of ET. In a way I was disappointed with myself. After so many years and watching the same movie so many times, it does not really make any sense to be crying about it? Then it dawned on me, I suddenly remembered that something really important happened to me 20 years ago: I received Knowledge. I checked the date as fast as I could... I will have the privilege to celebrate the exact date of my birthday in Amaroo. I was so happy! What an honor to be there at my birthday! Back in the theatre, others probably think that I am crying because the movie touched me, but the truth is that I am now crying a different kind of tears... Now, I'm not exactly sure what happened here but either way it's hilarious. I THINK Ivette's talking about seeing ET again, now, as it's just been reissued. If that's the case, she must be saying that she started crying in the movie, didn't know why but then thought about it further and realized that she must be crying because it was the 20th anniversary of her receiving Knowledge. Not that she was aware of it or anything, right? She's crying first and only later figures it out. But what's even funnier is that it's not even the anniversary! No, that blessed day won't be until she's safely esconced in the Australian cult compound later this month. So Ivette thinks that the reason she was crying in the movie was because this is just roughly the season of her 20th anniversary and that somehow she must have known that subsconsiously. Is that nuts or what? But the real funny thing isn't that she's back in this kid's movie having already seen it 'so many times', there are people like that. Lovely people. No, the real funny thing is that, as she's sitting back there crying, all the people around her mistakenly think Spielberg got to her when after all it was the head of the Prem Rawat Foundation! Wonder why they didn't use Ivette for the article?

Subject: Re: Now THIS is funny beyond words From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:39:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd cry if I'd seen ET 'so many times', I'd cry for not having something better to do with my life. Oh! sorry Ivette does have something wonderfull to do with her life, hey why is this premie not at the the lotus cheese feet doing service satsang and meditation? Hope the trip to Amaroo helps put her back on track, she wont have the funds to hang around at the movies after that junket. Jai and hello all

Subject: No, this is SAD beyond words (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:59:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How about both? Tragicomic? :) :( [nt] From: Jim To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 18:05:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ok, I'll settle for fifty-fitfy(nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 18:23:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOL [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 01:06:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Prem, the busiest man on earth From: Happie Frenchie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 18:01:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to our litlle pal Prem new site, he has adressed 45,000 persons and more than 25,000 people were shown the techniques of Self-Knowledge between February 22 and March 10 -- that is to say, in 16 days. Geez, that's impressive! I wonder, could he be trying to get in the Guinness Book of Records ? Or is it yet another lie ?

Subject: Re: Prem, the busiest man on earth From: Bolly Shri To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 10:42:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When was the last time you made 45000 people so happy?

Subject: 45000 happy people From: Happie Frenchie To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:35:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean, all at one time ? I've got stamina, but that's a tall order !

Subject: Busiest DVD player on earth you mean! From: JHB To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 00:56:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And 24,800 of the new premies were in India. (I'm being kind with the 200 outside India.) John.

Subject: Re: Busiest DVD player on earth you mean! From: Happie Frenchie To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:10:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Busiest musician on earth too, of course (and what musician : Beethoven, Mozart and the rest pale in comparison) Yeah, I forgot India, didn't know he was there, and where else could he 'enlighten' so many poor devils in so short a time. Certainly not in the rest of the world at this time. That would take him a few centuries given the current state of affairs re. aspirants ! Happie Frenchie

Subject: don't count...of course From: And Indians To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:31:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as they lack intelligence, sophistication, the data for informed comparison shopping and Internet savvy... Not to mention their lack of familiarity with Maharaji's history. Hmmm?

Subject: Indians don't count because... From: JHB To: And Indians Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:49:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having a guru is fashionable. Having several gurus is even better. From informed reports here, they don't take it that seriously. John.

Subject: Indians don't count, anonymouse... From: PatC To: And Indians Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 04:33:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....because they are Hindus who are quite comfortable with gurujism. Maybe you're a Hindu too. Most western PWKs that I know are Hindus eventhough they deny it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just ask and I'll give plenty of details about the atavistic Hinduism of PWKs. Maharajism is Hindu gurujism full-stop. Now remove the thousands of satisfied Hindu customers from the equation and just consider the western premies. 99% have walked or drifted away - unsatisfied customers. No matter how many revisions and evolutions Rev Rawat and his org go through, the product, gurujism, is Hindu. You and the other PWKs are welcome to it but I find it atavistic.

Subject: I stand corrected From: Anonymouse To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 06:43:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh yes, I do know what you mean. I received K in 76, walked away in 98 or so, having had some documents through my hands that had me convinced that M was in it only for the $. Actually, it was silly of me not to realize that the only place on earth M could boast such impressive numbers of new affiliates was in India. And if I must stay anonymouse, as you cleverly put it, it is because some people who are really dear and close to me are now in the top strata of EV (or whatever its new name is) because of their money and their expertise in financial counseling. I can't say more, but trust me, I'm well aware of what's going on.

Subject: you may be- but WE'RE not. From: janet To: Anonymouse Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:12:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: howsabout unburdening yourself of it so it can do some good???? you talk as if you can't tell--but the fact is, you can. you can speak at any time. you just have to decide what is right, which has more impact, which is more important, which affects more humans:: take a set of scales, and in one side, place those few people, and Rawat, who let Rawat keep on being what he is, doing what he does, and doing it to whom he is doing it-- and in the other side of the scales, place all the people he has hoodwinked, all the lives he squeezes for himself, all the potential future cons he means to pull with new, unsuspecting people, and what you know is the truth. the reality. having the world and the victims know what they are really being used for/by. now whine and cry and say you don'wanna look. what is going to happen if you break the silence? are you going to get killed? are your kids in danger? will your oh-so-lovely liasons end? will your social calendar just come to a standstill, darling? these people, whose worlds you protect --- what are you protecting? the fatman? his partners in crime? or your own comfort level of denial, fear, complacency, cowardice? what is your real motive for not breaking the story? is the favor of these few you are not doing it because of, really a fair weight of equality when placed in the scales alongside the thousands who are giving their lives and are being lied to, used, kept in the dark, being deliberately misinformed, and the millions in the world who are intentionally being conned? have these honchos got some goods on you, that they are using to keep you in your place? when is your conscience, your nerve, your courage, your lifelong realization of what's right and what's wrong, gonna finally take over and win out? ...? you know-- if you have seen evidence that a crime is being perpetrated or comitted... and you don't act upon that knowledge, by calling it what it is, and bringing it to the attention of the agencies who can end it-- or at least make it known, what you know those people are doing-- then you become --and can be named-- complicit in their crime. you aid and abet them, in what they are doing. you had foreknowledge and did nothing. that in itself is a crime, in court and law enforcement. it makes you count with them-- instead of with 'us'. are you afraid of 'losing their friendship'? o yeah, babe--that's SOME KINDA friendship. wouldn't wanna lose friends like that,now, would ya? i mean--you're getting SO much out of it, and they're such GOOD FRIENDS, aren't they? are they payin ya 'hush money' on the side, not to go and 'tell'? have they got you blackmailed? i think the fear that binds you is imaginary. it takes conviction and guts to become a whistleblower, to find the strength to do the Right Thing, regardless. you know, people make choices. They always have choices. You have choices. You, also can walk away, at any time. They can walk away at any time. They're making choices, with every day that they do what they're doing. And so are you, with every day that you keep what you know to yourself. Which is so nicely to their advantage. And thus, to HIS advantage. ... The most insidious device that pedophiles and alcoholics use on their victims is to make them believe that terrible things will happen to them if they tell anyone what the perpetrator is doing. kept secrets kill. if a thing can't stand the light of day, it doesn't deserve to continue. I spent years, watching things happen and sweating it out, waiting for someone else to speak out and say something. And I ducked and dodged and tried to hide from facing it as long as i could, until i saw flat out that no one else was gonna. it was on me, because i was the one that knew. it finally reached the point where i had to say it. it had to be said. and ya know what? the sky did not fall. the world did not end. god did not reach out of the heavens and strike me dead. what happenned? there was pin drop silence. things stopped. people woke up and listened. i had the floor. help appeared out of the woodwork to aid me. the world was interested. i was asked 'why didn't you bring this to our attention sooner? if we had known, we could have done this then! we could have stopped it by now! we could have acted!' growing up is a bitch, ain't it? it sucks, waiting around for the other guy to take it off your hands and watching it get worse, and finally realizing no one else's gonna do it, so you have to. after I broke thru the fear my first time, i looked back at what held my hand from moving, and i got mad. real mad. i burned with a keen resentment that such a pipsqueak, venal, small, petty, shitty little thing, had blocked my power like that, for so long. i grew to hate all such usury and tricking of the human spirit. i made a vow that it would never happen again, not on my watch. as jesus said 'as you are doing it unto the least of my creatures, so you are doing it unto me'. so what's it gonna be, friend? you gonna live in cowardice with this information you know damned well ought to be made fully public? put it in the scales, and watch which side carries more weight. we'll be here when you make the right decision. you really want to let that control your life? '...to be, or not to be-- that is the question... whether tis nobler, in the mind, to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or, by taking up arms against a sea of troubles, end them'

Subject: Excuse me ? From: Happie Frenchie To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 18:54:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the advice, but I don't feel burdened in the least. What are you talking about (in 5 sentences or less if you can !) and who are you writing to exactly ? As far as I know, I do not owe you or anyone any explanation, neither do I have to justify myself to you or anyone for my decision to spill or not spill whatever beans I may possess, so to speak, Sorry, Janet, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Furthermore, when you write 'we', I guess you mean 'us all on the forum'. Are you the spokesperson for all who post here ? Were you elected or are you self-appointed ? And as your quote of Jesus, sorry, I am an atheist. I suggets you save your writing savy for a worthier cause, I'm afraid it's wasted on me.

Subject: Oh, it was you. ;) [nt] From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:35:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I stand corrected - me too From: PatC To: Anonymouse Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:17:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My apologies. I thought you were an anonymous cult apologist.

Subject: Re: I stand corrected - me too From: Happy Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:41:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No problem, Pat, no harm done. I'm just anonymous, that's all. As a matter of fact, my identity is know to the people who I felt needed to know it, but trust me, my real name is of no interest whatsoever. I understand why you guys would be a bit jumpy given the posts you sometimes get on this forum,but if I may suggest one thing... sometimes it may be better to ask questions first and shoot later. It can be a tad off-putting to be lashed out for not apparent reason. But again, I understand the background of this reaction, so in this case, it's cool.

Subject: Re: I stand corrected - me too From: PatC To: Happy Frenchie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:02:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No problem with your anonymity but you will only have the right to preach to me condescendingly as you have done when you are no longer anonymous. Get that anonymouse? You don't have a high horse to sit upon! Your post seemed to be sarcastic as if written by an anonymous cultweasel. If you don't introduce yourself but simply pop in and start opining, you will get what you got including my apology for mistaking your intent. You could make it easier on all of us by telling us a bit about yourself before spouting off. Just say hi, nicely.

Subject: I'll stand corrected , but not by you From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:04:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you're confusing a friendly post to you with condescention and sarcasm, that's your problem. And if you want to know who I am, I posted a few days ago to that effect. Or you may look in forum I or II, I used to post under 'Happy and living in Paris' . I changed my pseudo as there was another Happy and people used to confuse us. Anyhow, when I posted back then, no one ever showed me the slightest animosity - it was always totally friendly and lovely, from the very start. You and Janet seem to me just as heavy and righteous as those premies from the old days.You're shooting people who are on your own side and I don't see how this could serve what this forum is trying to achieve. Luckily, there are some wonderful people here who have a sense of humor. That's why I'll keep opining, as you say, whether you like it or not. You've turned a simple remark in a personal vendetta with a total stranger who has nothing but good intentions toward what's being done here and the people who are doing it. To say the least, your and Janet's behavior is a complete turn-off and I find your reaction awful, totally absurd and the agressivity you display is downright disturbing. I will leave it at that. This kind of bickering doesn't not interest me.

Subject: Your high horse is lame From: PatC To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:20:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Take the consequences of not sticking to one alias. You drew this upon yourself by making a post without your usual alias. See above ''And Indians don't count of course.'' ESP is really hard to do in chatrooms. I didn't mean to be heavy but was simply reminding you of your obligations to us lesser mortals who are not psychic. So lighten up and stick to one alias. Anyway, pleased to make your acquaintance, Happy Frenchie. I'm Patrick Conlon of San Francisco.

Subject: Re: I stand corrected - me too From: Happie Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:28:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Unsatisfied customers From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:42:18 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Mention of unsatisfied customers brought to mind a comment on religion that rung a lot of bells for me: 'What could be better than an organisation where the consumer blames himself for product failure?' —from 'National Lampoon's Doon' by Ellis Weiner 'Doon' is a very funny spoof on Herbert's 'Dune' BTW. Neville

Subject: Re: Unsatisfied customers From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:24:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for this quote about religion: ''What could be better than an organisation where the consumer blames himself for product failure?'' —from 'National Lampoon's Doon' by Ellis Weiner

Subject: Contentment From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 17:39:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was thinking today about the way Maharaji is pushing the concept of 'contentment'; that contentment is an inner state that can be attained by practising the Knowledge. Is this even a good thing? Is it even desirable to aspire to a state of contentment without necessarily living in such a way that might normally result in contentment? I know people without Knowledge who lead rich and good lives. They experience a coresponding level of contentment. I see this with my own eyes: they are expansive, often joyful, and have a lot to give. I know people without Knowledge who lead intrinsically careless lives. Their ethics are somewhat skewed. They experience a lack of contentment, and they seem lost. I know premies who practise Knowledge and lead ethically skewed lives - but they also claim to experience contentment. I personally doubt that they do. If the experience of Knowledge/contentment doesn't in itself lead to a life of integrity and intrinsic goodness, then what exactly is its value? I was talking to a premie today and trying to raise some of the issues discussed on EPO and this forum. His attitude was that integrity doesn't come into it; Maharaji's integrity doesn't matter, and that all he knows is that his experience works for him. So how is that any different to someone else I know (not a premie) who suffered from depression but now takes Prozac and feels just great? Is that what Knowledge now is - a chemical-free Prozac? It doesn't matter what you do, you just feel great? I used to believe that the experience of Knowledge necessarily led to a life of integrity. I now know this not to be true. Premies now even say it doesn't matter. What on earth has happened? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Contentment and Belief... From: Chuck S. To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 16:09:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Before I left the whole thing over a year ago, it seemed like Maharaji spent more time talking about what Knowledge was not, and what it would not do, than what it actually was or what it would do. It would seem to me that the emphasis now is just about feeling good, feeling "contentment", and understanding the NEED for The Master in your life to experience that. And all without analysis, it's talked about only in terms of feeling and emotions. To analyse it to doubt. Your comments about PWKs: I know people without Knowledge who lead rich and good lives. They experience a coresponding level of contentment. I see this with my own eyes: they are expansive, often joyful, and have a lot to give. I know people without Knowledge who lead intrinsically careless lives. Their ethics are somewhat skewed. They experience a lack of contentment, and they seem lost. I know premies who practise Knowledge and lead ethically skewed lives - but they also claim to experience contentment. I personally doubt that they do. I have also observed the same. It's not as if all premies are miserable, or happy. In that way, they are no different from people without Knowledge. For a while one of Maharaji's favorite experessions was "Belief is Relief". Belief is a very powerful thing. Faqir Chand, considered by many to be one of the most honest of gurus, has talked about how a devotees faith in the guru creates that devotees experiences; the guru can be a total fake, an actual criminal, but the faith of the devotee, the BELIEF of the devotee about who the guru is and what he is doing, can give the devotee bliss, or "contentment" as M. and the PWKs like to say. "That Feeling", that the premies like to refer to so often, is very real to them. I don't doubt for a moment that the FEELING is real. The feelings little children have from their beliefs in Santa Claus are very real too. But that doesn't make Santa Claus real, no matter how sincerly the belief in his existance is. I like feeling good, I am a great believer in feeling contentment. It was that sort of thing that attracted me to M & K and the premies in the first place. I've just become a lot choosier about what I believe, and am much happier not having to sacrifice honesty or rationality to feel contentment; not having to be afraid to scrutinize, in order to protect a belief system. I'm now free to discover how I can experience feeling contentment in more positive ways, without having to ignore facts. It's ironic how for years we believed that Knowledge was not a religion or a belief system, but an experience. Yet it's undeniable that M. is teaching that the experience is related to The Master, and in fact, is not possible without him. It's a guru worshiping religion, at best. Even the some of the CAC sites had editorials by professional cult apologists, describing the ex-premies as "apostates", claiming that apostates of new religions were too biased in their opinons to be credible. In short, it was an admission that Knowledge is a religion. Even more than reading EPO, the thing that forced me to scrutinize M & K critically, was the actual revisionism by Maharaji himself. I waited for two years, for Maharaji to explain things, to address some of the accusations against him. Instead, we were given revisionism and lies. Reading about the Indian Background on the EPO site finally helped me understand what it was I became involved with, and helped me to see it and accept it for what it was and is, so I could disentagle myself and move on. "Knowledge" really is like a prozac these days, and Maharaji, with his preaching about the importance of The Master, is just asserting his copyright on it. Integrity really does have nothing to do with it, and "doesn't matter" as the thoroughly modern PWK's will tell you. If it did matter, how could they stay? What on earth has happened? Maharaji is just weaseling away, trying to keep his business going, by hooking the premies emotionally, and getting them to consider ONLY that. But I guess that is what he has always been doing. It's how this game is played.

Subject: 'Leaders' replies....Jim? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 16:58:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few people down below started to discss the best way to procede with the response to the interview. One of them mentioned that since Jim H. has begun a e-mail dialog with the author, that he continue that. I'd like to second that, if Jim is willing.I assume he is ready and able...) Perhaps any other interested parties could coordinate with him in some sort of order to provide backup support in the form of letters, e-mails, testimonials etc., if they are wanted or needed... I think it would be best to not stress the situation, or the author of the article, but to get ALL of the information out to him in an orderly way, rather than inundate him with too much stuff right away.... Also, would the author explain HOW the interview occurred, or WHAT it takes to get in the magazine? I wonder, would they print responses to the article? Or possibly questions from exes for PR to respond to? Comments?.....

Subject: La-ex From: Tim G To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 18:43:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, I take your point La-ex. An inundation could be counterproductive. My comment ' the more the merrier' is I think incorrect. I will be happy to write a testimonial if needs be, but will co-ordinate with Jim if he feels that would be useful. He writes very succinctly and forcefully and I gladly endorse him as our spokesperson.

Subject: Thanks but ... From: Jim To: Tim G Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:10:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really have no idea what to expect from Leaders (The Magazine for People who Never Wanted to Be Leaders [but Who, Nonetheless, Happened to Come as the Supreme Lord in Human Form, to Bring Peace to the World, You Betcha!]). If Darryl was straight with me, it's a real magazine and they got hoodwinked. Don't get me wrong, I infer that more from his silence and receptivity to my explanation rather than anything he himself said. One thing I forgot to check ...I'll check now .... Yeah, I just checked out their web site and looked at the Table of Contents in their last issue. No bylines, no author credits. What's that tell you? Not being in the trade myself, I could be wrong, but I think namelessness like this leans towards Loaf's term, 'advertorial', more than it does to actual journalism. Wouldn't you think there's some proud writer out there who'd like to include this extremely rare opportunity to interview the actual head of the Prem Rawat Foundation in his portfolio? I mean, this was a real scoop, first interview since Millennium. Not so sure how much one can read into that but it doesn't bode well for accountability, does it? Anyway, we'll see. Maybe this really is some sort of strange niche publication. The earlier issues seem filled with a hodge podge of unrelated and basically boring material. But then maybe that's just the attitude that separates me from the $10,000,000 median net worth boys Leaders Magazine claims as its target audience. We'll see. Tim, or anyone, if you want to contact the mag too, please, feel free. So long as it's not ridiculous, this is the kind of reaction puff-piece whitewashes on venal cult leaders are supposed to get. Or, if you prefer, wait a bit and I'll see if anything else happens on my side. Back to bed ...... Leaders Magazine www.leadersmag.com/Editorial/editorial.html

Subject: It's fishy From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:19:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The circulation is only 30,000. They claim that they carefully control and limit the distribution. There are no subscriptions. They say: Why do we maintain a controlled circulation? Because we want to continue to deliver a circulation without waste; because we do not want to dilute the power that our reach delivers; and because our readers are special, and they have told us they want to keep it that way. Our lists are updated daily, and we can prove that we are well-read. LEADERS Magazine is not a magazine that reports the news of the week or month, or that interprets and tells readers what has happened. LEADERS is a forum for corporate and governmental discussion, progressive planning and the exchange of opinion. LEADERS Magazine delivers a pure Power Base within its circulation. I smell codswallop. So, the first thing I check for obviously is their source of revenue. You can't sell a glossy mag for $5 nowadays and turn a profit unless you are printing and selling 30 million copies. I won't bore you with the arithmetic. For a small run production of 30,000 each copy would cost nearly five bucks to print. Mags make their money from advertising. So I checked to see what the ad rates were. This is what you get: Why Advertise? The true aim of advertising is to reach decision makers, those who will commit the money to buy goods and services. Memorability, appeal and influence are wasted if the message does not reach the right target. Are you substituting cost-per-thousand for what should be cost-per-sale? LEADERS not only delivers the most efficient cost-per-contact in the world, it guarantees that you are paying only to reach those with the position and power to act on your advertising message. LEADERS readers control: 4 TRILLION U.S. dollars in assets and goods and services purchasing decisions. Most of the world's natural resources. Most of the world's trade. Most of the world's finances and financial investment decisions. Labor and corporate pension fund investment decisions worldwide. In short, LEADERS readers are the most influential, powerful and affluent readers in the world... ...and they write for LEADERS which provides a worldwide...Market Place. The readers of Leaders WRITE for it??? Here are the guidelines for submitting an ''editorial:'' Required for each editorial feature: 950-1000 words, typed, double-spaced per page. Biographical information - biography and/or curriculum vitae. A color photo, slide, or transparency of the author. The author's business card to indicate exactly how the byline should appear. Background photos to illustrate the article/interview are welcome but not required. Smells more like vanity publishing by the minute or could it be something more sinister? Who Are The Readers of Leaders?? LEADERS Magazine has a worldwide audience that controls close to four trillion dollars in assets, goods and services. Our readers are either directly or indirectly responsible for controlling most of the world’s natural resources and industrial production. The mostsignificant trait common to our readers is their ability to influence the movement and expenditure of massive amounts of money for major acquisitions and to finance industrial projects. These readers are among the most affluent and influential in the world. This is not an easy claim for any magazine to make, but independent surveys completely substantiate this claim. These surveys are available upon request. For example, our readers’ median net worth is approxi mately (yeah sic) $10,000,000. A highpercentageof (sic again) our readers have flown the Concorde. Other magazines may write about the billionaires,the 400 richest or the heads of the best-run corporations, but LEADERS is read and written by these influential people. Our readers are a group who control at least 44 billion of the world’s personal investment dollars - not to mention the many, many more billions in corporate and government investment funds. LEADERS circulation includes: Readers who are high net worth individuals, with more wealth to invest than readers of any other magazine. Major investors on behalf of labor, corporate and government pension funds worldwide. Chairman, president and members of the board of the major multinational and global corporations. Chief financial officers and treasurers of the leading multinational corporations worldwide. Chief information officers of the major mul tinational corporations (those in charge of tele communications, computerization and infor mation technology). Global investors who invest sizable amounts of money. Political and government leaders worldwide, including the decision makers who buy large quantities of goods on behalf of their countries. LEADERS is read by a unique group, every one of whom plays a vital role in global, political and economic decisions. In short, LEADERS is read by the people who make things happen. At least once or twice a year I get a letter adressed to me as President of XYZ, LLC making me the unique offer to be featured in their next publication for a fee. I figure the scam is based on peoples' vanity. This mag claims that they don't charge for their services. Yet WHO the hell are their advertisers? And what do the stinking rich sell to each other. Maybe Dermot's right - it's a Moonie or Scientolgy thingy or is that where all my donations went for the past 25 years? :C) This is toooooooo slick: Why LEADERS? There exists in the world a select number of individuals who, by their skill, capability, education and accomplishment, have risen to a position of inherent influence over the allocation of human and material resources. These individuals create and manage change. Theirs is a world of vision, of consensus and daring innovation. Their concentration is focused on how society and the world will emerge toward a better tomorrow. These individuals are hired, retained, elected and respect fully followed because, universally, they have earned the right to lead. Such leaders have different constituencies. Yet their common, distinguishing characteristics are inherent influence and commanding authority. While the population of the world continues to expand, the number of world leaders does not. Setting a vision and coping with change is separate from managing and deciding. In fact, the entire process of leading is different from managing. They are, indeed, two distinctive and complimentary systems of thought and action. Every entity, every enterprise, every political structure must have both. But the leaders distills a kaleidoscope of information ...digests a range of provocative ideas and thoughts... and absorbs often seemingly disparate points of view not found in the traditional 'management' publications. The effective leader most often gets information first hand from the people; the employees on the firing line; the customer; his trusted advisors and associates and, as importantly, directly from his peers around the world. He values the considered thoughts of those in a similar position of leadership responsibility. LEADERS Magazine is that forum of thought. Hmmmm? PS JIM, notice how a certain anonymouse does not post on weekends. That's because he posts from work and has done so since FV.

Subject: Re: It's fishy Its Sophomoric Positve Affirmation From: Zelda To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:46:24 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: 'Global investors who invest sizable amounts of money.' Puleeze It s pretentious posturing and hoky . It smaks of a first year Business Students assignment on 'writing and Effective Classified Ad' ''they have earned the right to lead. distinguishing characteristics are inherent influence and commanding authority. ''!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! must be amway

Subject: must be amway - maybe. Hmmm? From: PatC To: Zelda Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .......or something just as phony.

Subject: uhhh...let's see From: janet To: Zelda Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:32:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: papa doc and baby doc duvalier? osama bin laden? fidel castro? idi amin? saddam hussein? the medellin? moammar khadaffi? kenneth Lay? papa bush and baby bush? the bildeburgers? rothschilds? rockefellers? the mafia? who have i left out? oh--and bill gates.

Subject: Appears legit From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:19:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There have been some conspiracy theories tossed about that this was a one-off fakey pub created by TPRF. This is highly unlikely. Firstly, the magazine has been published for awhile and is quite costly per issue to produce. Second, and most telling, LEADERS has been independantly audited by BPA which is a respectable publication auditing firm. I rely on it's reports to determine the best fit for my advertising clients. BPA provides reliable info. As Jim and Pat have said, LEADERS has one heck of a target audience distribution. The high end demographic that the pub goes to is their advertising hook justifying $15 - 17K a pop for ad placement. As the magazine is distributed for free, 100% of their revenue comes from selling ad space. LEADERS appears to be an extremely high end Forbes-type publication. I am astounded at the chutzpa in having M featured in this magazine. It throws the doors open to all other media doing stories on 'Wonder what happened to the pimply 15 year old Living Perfect Master?' I'm still curious what the strategy is. Who is M trying to impress? The Sultan of Brunei and Bill Gates or the pwks who control the cash input via donations?

Subject: Appears legit - but who advertises? From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 14:40:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The website only publishes the ''editorials'' and not the ads. Who buys ads in the mag? Maybe it's legit. Let's face it there are enough nouveaux riche idiots (the Sultan of Brunei?) out there to fall for such vanity crap but all the ''editorials'' are submitted by the readers. The four men pictured on the cover of the latest issue look like Mormon accountants who were caught embezzling church funds. Even if it's legit, it sure is tacky and creepy.

Subject: Real live LOL! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 16:41:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The four men pictured on the cover of the latest issue look like Mormon accountants who were caught embezzling church funds. I really did LOL this time. I mean, how often do we 'LOL' wihtout really LOL-ing? That's a question each of us must answer for ourselves, I guess. Personally, yes, I'm guilty. I have indeed 'LOL'ed when really I was just sitting here LI-ing. But, this was a real LOL. Thanks. So I looked at their advertising pages. Only full page ads are accepted and it seems as if they expect or at least encourage all advertisers to submit completed lay-out material ready for publication. I'd be tempted to wonder, then, if Maharaji's eight pages aren't nothing more than a paid placement but then don't magazine always have to indicate that? Who oversees this stuff anyway? Is there a magazine gestapo? Obviously, one key question is who conducted the interview and who wrote the article. I'll email Darrell Brown and ask him. I'll let you know what he says.

Subject: Re: Real live LOL! From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:40:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to say: ''The four men pictured on the cover of the latest issue look like Catholic priests caught fiddling with the altar-boys,'' but decided that was tasteless. :C) The sleaziness in Leaders is more to do with money than sex anyway.

Subject: What's this mean? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 16:44:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Editorial Requirements Required for each editorial feature: 950-1000 words, typed, double-spaced per page. Biographical information - biography and/or curriculum vitae. A color photo, slide, or transparency of the author. The author's business card to indicate exactly how the byline should appear. Background photos to illustrate the article/interview are welcome but not required. Sure looks like a weird way to run a magazine, doesn't it?

Subject: It means that Rev Rawat From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:16:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....wrote his own interview - questions and answers and submitted it. Since the mag receives no payment for ''editorials'' does that mean you have to buy a full page ad to get a ''free editorial?'' What did Rawat advertise? What was his ''product?'' God? It still smells fishy to me. Maybe it's a legit ''vanity mag'' but I won't be surprised if it turns out to be a complete fake. I want to see a hard copy before I believe it's legit. Even the website is hokey and dated.

Subject: Re: What's this mean? From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:05:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a vanity pub to be sure but, the jury is still out on whether this is all advertorial or just a cheap and safe way to get text and photos for the publication. Advertorial is when editorial space is given to any advertiser who commits to run ads. Or the 8 pages could be purchased outright and made to appear to be a real interview. By having all copy and photos submitted by the subject of the 'interview', they save a lot on production costs and avoid potential lible for printing false information. BTW: It is common practice for publications to rely quite heavily on submitted press releases and accompanying photos to fill up the non-ad pages.

Subject: I just sent them this From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:16:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: email to LEADERS: Darrell, Sorry for misspelling your name yesterday. I've been looking at your website further and wonder if you could clear up a few things for me. Who actually wrote the Rawat article? The two pages that Rawat himself has for view on his new website, www.tprf.org , don't indicate a byline. In fact, I don't see any bylines in any of your past issues. That, plus your site's directions for how to submit editorial copy leads me to suggest that the piece was written and submitted by Rawat's own people. Am I right? Your website states that: No one is paid to write or be interviewed and LEADERSaccepts no remuneration from any editorial feature. How, then, do you select your copy? Also, have you had a chance to look over any of the EPO materials yet? Once you do, you will undoubtedly see that Rawat, the former teenage Lord of the Universe, was laughed off the world stage years ago. Please don't forget to send me the full article at your earliest convenience. Sincerely, Jim Heller

Subject: I was wondering the same thing. From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:42:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was also wondering who did the interview. Did the editor call M and interview him or did they send a list of questions that M et al then answered essay-style? The first two pages sound more like the latter because there are no apparent follow-up questions sparked from the previous answer. i.e.: 'Oh, that is interesting, Prem. Could you elaborate on your father's role in helping formulate your life's work?' Or, "What are these technologies you use to help with your work?" What is also missing is the typical tone setting warm-up one gets with an interview. i.e. As I sat in the solarium at the Playboy mansion sipping my Rob Roy, Hef appeared in the doorway resplendant in his velvet smoking jacket with a blonde twin on each arm. Was this an essay-type interview, phone interview or what? Curious minds want to know.

Subject: Good points From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 18:04:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, this just couldn't have been a real interview for the reasons you mention. I hope Darrell Brown doesn't reneg on his promise to send me the rest of the article. Fun, eh? :)

Subject: Puff Piece From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 23:30:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patty was in the magazine industry in NYC for several years (Arts Magazine, Scientific America, Indterior Design) and she know a vanity rag when she sees one. Her take is that this is an 'interview' done by Rawat publicists and submitted for editing by the mag. And it's probable Rawrat paid for this space. Now, the question is, 'why?' My guess is that this article is intended to shore up the lagging spirits of big donors and hopefully, hook a new rich guy or two. It's worth the investment to Prem, and the only downside is criticism from the ex-premies. Once again, the arrogant Prem Rawat underestimates his opponents. And it ends up being a scam the PR PR team can pull only once. I think Leaders magazine will be plenty pissed (angry for you foreigners) when they figure out they've been had. These New York magazine guys have huge egos and they don't like being made out as fools. They talk amongst themselves and this won't be easily forgotten, especially now that Jim is on the job...

Subject: Re: Puff Piece- precisely From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:11:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'm surprised at you, Gerry. Where are your conspricacy theories when you need them? Sure there are a lot of vanity rags as Patty said. I know of one personally which provides someone with an income of several million a year - a mag about advertising ''art.'' If I were you I would be speculating that Leaders is a CAC-type operation with ringers (some real successful ''leaders'' profiled) but a shell game operated by Rawat with a fake history of 25 years. Hey, sleuths, check and see if it's been around that long. It stinks like day-old Dungeness at Fisherman's Wharf.

Subject: Not if Renesh is telling the truth From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:56:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A 'special issue' of Leaders is a rare occurrence. I've never seen one in the nine or ten years I've been receiving the magazine. The occasion for this 1999 special issue was 'The First Exclusive Interview Given by Zhu Rongji, the Premier of the People's Republic of China.' So Renesch says he's been getting this magazine for years. Rules out the CAC idea. Unless this Renesh character is a complete liar, this magazine, whatever we may think of it, must really exist. Frankly, the kind of work that would go into faking it, in the context of just how bad it would blow up for Maharaji if the truth got out, seem to far outweight whatever benefit the article could bring.

Subject: Leaders is a real publication. From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:30:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree 100% Jim. Thanks for injecting some logic here. So untypical of you.;) I'll take a risk and say it again. I swear on a stack of And It Is Divines that Leaders is a real publication and not a faux mag produced by ReVisions. Regardless of how the content is created, Leaders is a vanity vehicle for the rich, powerful and influential or those like M who aspire to be thought of that way. A mutual admiration society magazine. Leaders is banking on high end advertisers being anxious to be seen by the target audience who (verified by independant audit) receive it. It takes a ton of dough to publish anything at all so their strategy must be working or Leaders would be a has-been by now. Love to see who the advertisers are. Rawat's appearance is most likely due to Leaders being convinced that he is for real and they were getting a first-in-30-years interview. The first due to M's PR team efforts. The second because it's true. Because Leaders wanted the exclusive, they may have missed a few pertinent details that a web search would have turned up. Oops! I am starting to think that it cost Rawat & company $0 to get the 'interview' run. The real cost will come later when the news media sees this new open door to Chez Rawat. Then, instead of logging on here like a bunch of winey loosers :), we can all watch the drama unfold on CNN, BBC, FoxNews and People Magazine. And now we go live to Wolf Blitzer in Malibu.

Subject: Re: Leaders is a real publication. From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:26:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're probably right Jim and Richard. But I'd still like to see an actual hard-copy of the mag. I know that being rich does not guarantee being smart and this mag sounds like a boy scouts' circle jerk of mutual ego masturbation.

Subject: LOL, PatC [nt] From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:30:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: who advertises? From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 15:08:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I'm very curious which advertisers want this particular target market. Boeing, Gulfstream, Mercedes, Rolls, armament manufacturers, off-shore banks? The Leaders website is hopelessly out of date (last updated November 2001, it says). The 'Current Issue' is actually from 6 months ago.

Subject: Rre:The Fuhrer..er Leader From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:36:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's quite possible that it was set up a little while ago by pro-prems. Sent to CEO's, Government officials etc etc etc over a period free of charge. Eventually charging a small amount once established. A lot of cold calling phone calls from EV officials worldwide to offer the free copies then after a while having a sycophant er sorry, Premie :) to do the interview. Of course I'm just offering a possibility.....can't be certain just yet. I'd guess if it was the case or anything like it, then they'd expect some reaction from Exes....maybe even having a sweepstake on who'd be the first deadbeat (Jim ? Joe? ...?) to knock on the door first :) What a day for a dayream, what a day for a daydreaming boy ....I am lost in a daydream...dreamin' bout my bundle 'o joy.....

Subject: More on the magazine From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 22:11:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looking at some of the back issues, it appears that this really is a magazine. It's a weird one, though. For one thing, it has no subscriptions at all. You and I might have missed it because it's only sent out to a very, very select readership: LEADERS MAGAZINE serves leaders-worldwide-in the fields of business, government, labor, education, religion and other leaders, including the fields of arts and sciences. This comes from a purportedly audited statement which describes the target audience further as: DEFINITION OF RECIPIENT QUALIFICATION Qualified Business recipients include Chairman, Vice-Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer,Managing Director, Director General, General Manager, Managing Partner, Director, Senior Partner, Executive Director, Chief Operating Officer, Chief Financial Officer, Treasurer, Controller, Pension Fund Manager, Vice President-Finance, Senior Information/MIS Executive & other Senior Corporate Executives. Qualified Government recipients include President, Prime Minister, King, Queen, Prince, Emperor, Premier, Amir, Grand Duke, Paramount Ruler, Sultan, Governor General, Chancellor, Minister, Ambassador, Commissioner, Secretary, Chairman, Senator, Representative, Military Leaders, Member of Parliament, Diet and other Senior Executive, Legislative and Judicial Officials. Qualified Labor recipients include Union President, Secretary General and other Senior Labor Executives. Qualified Education recipients include University President, Chancellor, Director, Chairman, Dean, Rector and Other Senior Administrators. Qualified Religion recipients include Pope, Dalai Lama, President, Ayatollah, Patriarch, Rabbi, Cardinal, Archbishop and other worldwide religious leaders. No mention of either 'cult leader' or 'Supreme Lord in Human Form' but I'm sure that if ever there was a magazine for either, this is it. The company that supposedly audits their distribution claims: A not-for-profit organization since 1931, BPA International is the measure of success — the preferred global provider of audited data for the marketing and media/information industries. Media owners and media buyers serve on the Board of Directors and govern this membership organization. Join our international membership of more than 2,500 media properties and 2,800 media buyers in over 20 countries. As for the magazine's focus or content, here's how they see themselves: Editorial Policy LEADERS is the only magazine that deals with the broad range of leadership thoughts and visions of the world's most influential people. It is written by the world's leaders and has been described as 'the exclusive boardroom of the best and the brightest.' The purpose of LEADERS Magazine is to present thoughts to a worldwide audience of their contemporaries who can put to use their ideas and philosophies for the betterment of mankind. LEADERS Magazine is a forum of thought. The articles and interviews that appear in the magazine represent the con sidered [sic??] thoughts of the world leadership community. These experts are well recognized as being at the top of their re spective field and are chosen to contribute for that reason, without commercial considerations. No one is paid to write or be interviewed and LEADERSaccepts no remuneration from any editorial feature. LEADERS Magazine is a careful blend of international business, management, lifestyle, and technology. In most every case, the treatment of these subjects in LEADERS is different from the homogination of ideas found in most other publications. The focus of the LEADERS audience is upon: Coping with change Developing a vision Creating alignments and coalitions Setting directions Energizing strategies Creating a profitable future Thus, the editorial content of LEADERS focuses upon the future. It does not record events. It does not provide historical background.[You can say that again! The premies must have flipped when they found this sucker.] Instead, LEADERSacknowledges that the reader is well aware of the antecedents and origins of subjects covered. The world's leadership community most certainly is the most over-communicated group of people. They have virtually unlimited information resources at their disposal. The magazine also claims to have been around for 25 years. Funny thing is I've asked all the world leaders in my building here and no one remembers getting it. Mind you, life IS busy at the top but still ..... Anyway, it does seem to me that this is a legit publication and I have no idea right now how, if at all, it will deal with this mess its created for itself. I've looked for but haven't found a 'letters to the editor' section and get the impression that, despite its self-description as a 'forum for thought' I don't think there's any channel for published feedback. World leaders don't write letters to editors, I guess. My guess, therefore, is that, whether the magazine -- which, by the way, clearly denies taking payment for features -- was in on the Rawat scam or not, however which way, it will probably do nothing at all and hope no one notices. That's my guess as of now although I'm most interested in reading the rest of the piece as well as hearing further from Darrell Brown.

Subject: Sounds very con siderate :) From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 22:32:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I guess it's overall owner is Rev Syung Moon by the sound of it:) Still, wait to hear what Darryl comes up with.....and it'd be good to have the whole interview on site but copyright infringements ? Or are they above all that non consequential stuff? Hahaha

Subject: PS I hate reading adobe From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 22:58:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can never get the hang of it....a real pain in the ass, unless it's just me.Can never get it set up at a comfortable size for a smooth read.

Subject: Tell me about it From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 23:15:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By the way, did you read that Ivete post above? Dermot, that's one of the funniest things I've ever seen on ELK. Take a look.

Subject: Oh that magic feeling... From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 23:40:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must confess that years ago I'd even interpret a particular song playing on the radio just as I switched it on or some such thing like that as being a direct communication from the LEADER to me :) And all sort of stuff like that....sheer desperation. Yeah Ivetes post is hilarious....not exactly 20 years but approximately and anyway she'll be in Amaroo for the anniversary so that PROVESit doesn't it? PR IS GOD. hahahaha

Subject: Prem Rawat's integrity? From: Opie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 13:25:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some Moroccan PAM on M's new puffpiece website has made the following observations. (BTW I could not find any copywrite notice on the website so feel fully able to copy and paste). When I see him cooking, composing, recording, playing music, shopping, piloting a plane, interacting with many people in different circumstances, I see an extraordinary generosity of spirit and humor. He manifests exquisite consciousness, fearless creativity, and lives his life by the highest standards of integrity. He is focused on his work all the time, and keeps his priorities very clear. His schedules are very tight, leaving very little time for personal activities or leisure. So I can only assume the above is all true and that EPO and F7 only carries lies. Lies about sex, booze, yachts, manipulation, money, abandonment, perverting the course of justice, false claims, inequality of treatment and so on. Good grief! OP

Subject: Oh no he didn't! From: Bryn To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:17:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'He took me on a journey beyond the snowdrifts of language, across the tundra of thought, through the oceans of imagination, across the moonscapes of emotion...': a PWK on M's new site. Language, thought, imagination and emotion. Hmmmm. he took you beyond these? I doubt it, I really do. I think they're still waiting for you somewhere to discover them. Bryn

Subject: How to steal a soul in one easy lesson From: Lesley To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 16:41:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another premie remembers how at fourteen years old he wished happiness for himself, as he blew out his birthday cake candles; and how Maharaji had told him that he had come to help him keep that promise. That kinda jumped out at me because I remember making the exact same mistake. I mean, how easy was it for Mr Rawat to say he was here to help you keep your promise to yourself. He can be certain that he will get a hit from a lot of people. On the subject of scum sucking frauds, I visited the website for the Skeptic Society a little while ago, I had seen a televangelist called John Edwards, and wanted to know a bit about him. Fortuitously, he was on the front page, an interesting article about 'reading'. Hot reading being where you have some specific information about the person you are attempting to hit on, warm reading being where you have some tips, and cold reading being where you know nothing specific about the person or persons, at that point it is a percentages game, and it is surprising how well you can do at it. How many of us have some vital memory of wishing to be happy?

Subject: Re: How to steal a soul in one easy lesson From: Neville To: Lesley Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:50:52 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@ btopenworld.com Message: Years ago I was working with a naive young guy and he was quite taken in by a 'psychic' we heard on the radio. I had never tried this before (or even thought about it), but on the spot I performed a cold reading, just starting with vague ideas like, 'I see that you're thinking of travelling...maybe to the USA...' (Well who doesn't think such things?) It blew him away that I could do this, but I can honestly say it was very easy--I certainly don't have any special skills. You just start with the vague stuff and watch how your subject twitches.

Subject: M now signs his letters 'Prem Rawat' From: cq To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 09:15:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Letter from Prem Rawat Welcome to the web site of The Prem Rawat Foundation. Every living human being has something wonderful happening inside. Within each person is a supreme beauty. Within each person is peace, joy, the feeling of the heart. I offer inspiration, reminding people of the beauty of existence; I remind people that life itself is a gift. I encourage people to open windows of understanding, so that they can be fulfilled. I see each human being as complete. Within each one shines a sun so bright that it can make any darkness go away. I am not proposing solutions to world problems. I do not have any. What I am proposing is that within each individual is the domain where peace can be found. This is the premise of Self-Knowledge, and this is the message that I feel is sorely needed in this world. How important it is for that one message to be accessible to everyone. Now is the time to turn within. More than just words, I offer people Self-Knowledge, a practical way to feel the contentment that is already inside them. My message is neither new nor old. It is timeless: the peace, the contentment, that people seek is within. It was, is, and always will be. What I offer is a gift from one being to another. I want to make this possibility available to people. And if they want to pursue it, I want to help them however I can. This is why The Prem Rawat Foundation has been created. It is my hope that through my work, and through the support of the Foundation, this message will reach those around the world with a thirst to enjoy the best there is in life. Prem Rawat April 2002 Letter from Rawat www.tprf.org/pr_letter.htm

Subject: Prem Rawat, New-Wage Leader :D [nt] From: Rawautism To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 13:58:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LEADERS is an advertorial From: Loaf To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:03:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that article is written with all the journalistic bite of a premie... its not the sort of publication to rock anybody's boat... it smacks of vanity publishing.. and it looks as if his teeth have been retouched- all it needs now is the colgate glint ! Very suspect fawning pap... I would bet money that either it has been paid for, or that a PWK is involved somewhere along the route. For $5 do I get the whole magazine ? There might be something interesting in it which tells us a lot about the quality journalism we can expect. Yuk... and good luck prem rawat. I think a lot of his Huge Jet owning aviation and shopping and 'would-be CEO lifestyle' is compensating for something.

Subject: I just called them From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:15:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I spoke with Darryl Brown, the editorial guy at Leaders. I honestly don't think he had any idea who Rawat is or was. He seemed sincere and understandably concerned about just what he's gotten involved with. I told him about EPO and he asked for the address. I gave it to him and we agreed to communicate further. He was going to look over some of M's background and was also going to send me a full copy of the article Monday to look over. Here's the email I sent him: Hi Darryl, Thanks for taking my call about the Prem Rawat article this morning. And thank you, as well, for agreeing to send me the whole piece to look over. As I explained, I'm a former follower of Mr. Rawat's, a man who I first knew in the early 70's as Guru Maharaj Ji, the Perfect Master. That's right, Rawat is none other than one of the more absurd and destructive cult leaders of that era. At the age of eight, he stepped into his father's shoes as an Indian guru claiming to be no less than the greatest incarnation of God to ever walk the earth, the Lord of the Universe. I'm actively involved in an online community of former members who are trying to expose the truth about Maharaji and to hold him accountable for a lifetime of unconscionable exploitation. Our website is: www.ex-premie.org If you'll take some time reviewing the site, particularly the background section, you'll see that Maharaji purported to inaugurate a 'Thousand Years of Peace' at an event he called 'Millenium '73' in that year in Houston, Texas. At the time, Maharaji claimed that he had taken a human body to bring peace to the world and, in fact, he promised to do just that. That was his last press conference. The function was a disastrous non-event and Maharaji has been spinning and re-creating himself ever since. He has avoided the press with good cause all these years. Your piece, unfortunately, has given this transparent con artist an uncritical platform he hardly deserves. I kid you not, Maharaji used to parade before as God in human form. Even to this day, his followers line up on occasion to kiss his feet. Here is just one sample quote from his earlier days: 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' Obviously, your article causes some concern for us. In fact, I think that you'll agree once you familiarize yourself better with Rawat that he in no way deserves the kind of uncritical publicity you've afforded him. I'm sorry, Darryl, but I can only assume that your magazine was duped somehow into running this article without really knowing anything about its subject who, by the looks of things, is trying to recreate himself all over again, this time as a corporate-style inspirational leader. Whoever put this together very artfully tricked you into not doing any sort of independent research, apparently. Maharaji was downright infamous before he faded from public view. The little recent press that he HAS gotten, before your piece, has been cognizant of his true identity as a cult leader. Here, for example, is a 1997 article: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/kanguru.htm Anyway, at this point it would be great if you could send me the rest of the piece so that I can consider it and comment further. Your magazine seems to have a very admirable and ambitious agenda. I shudder to think what effect even an implicit endorsement of a cult leader like Maharaji, sorry Rawat, might have on your credibility. I can't imagine but that you would not share this concern. Sincerely, Jim Heller tel: (250) 360-1040

Subject: Brilliant Jim, well done nt From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:28:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's what I do. I call people :) [nt] From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:51:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I get it, you call people! LOL nt From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 04:41:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah, and if you don't watch out, I'll call you! [nt] From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 17:27:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I just called them......:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 14:17:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well done Jim From: Tim G To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:25:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm going to get in touch too. The more the merrier. Hard to beat what you have said. Congrats.

Subject: it never stops OT, maybe From: Silvia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:38:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am disgusted with what premies have become, by the courtesy of 'THE MASTER'. Each premie I know accepts MAHARAJI as the Perfect Master of our times, the SATGURU, the only one, the one that is greater than GOD because he can 'show' you GOD, GOD encarnated. The have altars in their homes. All ADORE and revere maharaji and they themselves are pathetic, needy, sick human beings. Afraid to have meaninful close relationships, since the endoctrination only allow them to love Maharaji, not others. These premies I know do not love themselves, it shows, unhealthy people and their lives are chaos, totally out of control. Neurotic behavior is present in all of the ones I know. BTW, I studied Psychology, mind you I know the subject. I was for them always a crazy premie, studying Psychology, the mind. I live in Michigan, in the suburbs of Detroit, but also know other premies from the same region and all are in the same shape. All kind of physical, emotional and mental sicknesses. Really, how many REAL human beings I know are premies? NONE. They are ALL sick individuals in my book. Healthy mind, healthy body, with the exception of genetic diseases, of course. Can premies really see how they are being affected by Maharaji's way of teaching, or are they so much under the control of the cult that many don't have a chance to get free? I understand that in all sectors of society people experience good and bad times but I see a distinctive pattern of sicknesses among the premie community, and also had met premies from other states with whom I traveled with to programs; I know them pretty well, we talked on the phone, etc. Sick people. Strange people. I wanted to post, write about it, since my 15 yrs old son told me again yesterday that he likes Maharaji; I am red, if you know what I mean. My poor son, who lives with his premie father, a psycho. Yes, I am going to court again....you G, ignorant bastard, lost soul. To name a few sick premies: Premie #1: A DRUNK: He is single, for 20 years. He was an ocassional drinker when he met Maharaji as a young man. He never recovered and became an alcholic. His two wifes left him and now his son doesn't want to deal with him anymore. He is close to 50 and he feels and looks simply terrible; he spends his days laying on a couch, giving orders in a rude manner, disrespecting everyone. He is a vegetarian and his colestrol is 320. He is a pile of nerves and his family is ready to put him in rehabilitation clinic. He drinks since he gets up without even having breakfast, in fact, usually he doesn't eat until dinner time, a few bites, after having had a bottle of SCOTCH, straight, no ice. Self-destructive behavior. Skinny like hell, unhealthy. Always sending money to Maharaji, serius money, but he himself doesn't have health insurance. What is wrong with this picture? And he consider himself saved, above all. Please! If you try to have a conversation his ideas about maharaji being God are very fantastic. Maharaji is all pure, bla, bla, bla.... He is going to die. He cannot stop drinking... His mind went coockoo and I blame his insecurities, his weaknesses as being the result of being in Maharaji's cult since he was very young, a cult that made him WEAK, not stronger, just like it happened to me, and so many others. How many 'succesful' premies are there? Not smiling ones, silly ones, dreamers, I am talking about REAL human beings, there are not many, I bet. I personally do not know any. All can have a wonderful experience with the imaginary friends but cannot be friends of themselves. Self-hate? Why Maharaji ALWAYS come first in all? Hmmm.... Premie #2: Unknown sickness: Premie of the 70s, single, never been married. She is in her house, unable to leave, sick all the times to the points that many times she didn't even went to programs to see maharaji because of how sick she felt. She saw many doctors and none could find anything wrong with her. She is a very sick person; she complains of low energy and muscles aches all the time. She doesn't work, for last I knew. Leaves alone. Never any meaninful relationship. Alone, with the imaginary friend. A waste of space. Sorry. Premie#3: Unkonwn sickness:, of the 70s: She also is sick, was never married, and doesn't work much; she cannot. Doctors do not know why she feels sick all the time, neither does she. Hmmmm. She was fine before receiving K. For her also Maharaji is GOD. She is a very shy, insecure person, a crier. Hmmm. Sure, K shows you what life is about. Suffer baby (m says) I am OK! Laughing all the way to the bank, the insensitive 'master'. (you dogs) Premie# 4, 5, and six, all from the same family. Three males, all received K in the 70s and also think Maharaji is God. They were never married, all in their 50s. Very insecure people, all have been at programs in my home and to foundraiser diners. I have to say they do a lot of activities with the family, travel, etc., but the fact that thye do not have close relationship and never had kids follows certain patterns of the cult. Their appearance shows their self-esteem, and two of them do not like baths. Hmmm... k does people goood... NOT! Premie#7: He received K in the 70s also. Never had kids. His premie wife left him because he has a problem with heroin. I give him credit for having go to school at his age and for having graduated, but. He lives alone, with his dog and imaginary friend. In his own words, waiting for the 'shot', always, darshan of maharaji, who also for him is GOD. Another insecure, needy being? Premie#7: She got K in the 70s also and also think Maharaji is GOD. Suffers of depression and many body sicknesses. Sheot divorced, never remarried and have (her words) a problem with low self-esteem, and never had kids either. Premie#8: Received K in the 70s. He works, has some money but looks like a pupper. I mean, rugs, t-shirts with holes ALWAYS. Miserable? Extra low self-esteem. He cites the Bible and says also that Maharaji is God. His wife divorced him and he never remarried or dated anybody. Premie#9: Received K in the 70s. Never married. He thinks Maharaji is God. A very inmature person who behaves like a kid, worse, really. He is very insecure and is excussing himself for all, feeling little.... Premie#10: Premie of the 70s. Never got married or had kids. Not a fun person to be with. Boring, insecure, same pattern. I could go on, and on. I was surprised to see yesterday in my premie ex-husband's home a paper above a photo of Maharaji where Maharaji says a prayer to GOD. Give me humility, clarity, bla, bla, bla....Is this something new? Maharaji talks about GOD again? My 'mature' ex-husband have not talked to me in almost four years, so I cannot ask him about it. I went to help my son carry something and couldn't help but to see the paper. Just curiosity. I know with certaintity that maharaji only confuses people and stops them from developing 'normal' lifes, like the rest; he is no good. He doesn't mean half or more of what he says. False puppy. To maharaji: 'For my fruits you will recognize me'. Yeah Maharaji, you suck! All you have is a bunch of sick people following you. But what do you REALLY care? If you had a conscience it would bother you, but I am sure you have stopped listening to it. You wasted a good tool, THE RADAR is dead. You cannot have my son Maharaji. You are asking for a battle. Tell your premies to stop watching videos around children! I warned you! DO IT NOW! I WANT TO SEE IT IN YOUR WEBSITE. YOU CANNOT FOOL ANYMORE CHILDREN! YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. WITH US SHOULD BE ENOUGH, YOU SCAM!! I WILL GET YOU LEGALLY IF MY SON GETS INTO YOU, BASTARD! SHOW ME YOU HEARD ME, SHOW ME YOU READ THIS. POST SOMETHING IN YOUR WEBSITE NOW! NOT MY SON, A 15 YEARS-OLD MAHARAJI!

Subject: Re: it never stops OT, maybe From: Livia To: Silvia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:17:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a very impassioned post Silvia, my God. But it's all so true. I was in a dispute down below with R2 - I posted that most of the practicing premies I know are basically disfunctional in their working lives, integrity, and relationships. He posted back to the effect that it was the particular premies I know. Another premie several weeks ago when I said much the same thing riposted that it was the company I kept. I know this to be a whitewash. Premies don't want to admit to the truth of this - that most of them are sad, and disconnected to mainstream society in a way that is intrinsically damaging to them. Maybe we should all compile lists of premies we know? Of my acquaintance: Premie 1: Old well before his time, never held down a full-time job. Lives in total chaos and seems depressed a lot of the time but will wax lryical about Maharaji at any opportunity. Premie 2: Never goes out, completely disfunctional. Probably has ME but has no motivation to do anything whatsoever about it. Comes from born-again Christian family which could explain some of this person's problems, which he has never even begun to recognise let alone deal with. Premie 3: Lives odd, disconnected life, works spasmodically for himself with no real interest in anything outside Maharaji's world. Has somewhat sad, distracted demeanour. Nearly 50 but cannot hold down a relationship. Premie 4: Works spasmodically for himself. Married to ex with one child. Wants to leave ex because of ex's lack of involvement with M. Wife is devastated. Premie 5: No job, no relationship, inability to engage in any real sense outside Maharaji's world. Premie 6: Drink and drug problems. Looks like tramp. Waxies lyrical about M at any opportunity. Premie 7: Serious drink and anger problems, disfunctional relationships, dead-end work. Claims Maharaji means everything to him. Premie 8: An exception: holds down good, interesting job. Is good parent, etc, but relationships a complete disaster area. Never really seems as happy or content as she says she is. Eight premies, only one of them remotely functional. Any more case histories? Love, Livia

Subject: Do we all live in the same community? From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 13:33:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Three out of the seven PWKs here are on permanent welfare for mental problems and the others aren't much better off - booze, precription anti-depressants, street drugs, often unemployed. It really is sad.

Subject: WOW-I REALLY AM OUT... From: JANET To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 18:40:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this subthread made me have to really think back a long way in order to remember when i last lived anywhere near premies. the last premie i had a friendship with utterl repelled me when i ran into him out here. we used to be street pals in dnever in the 70's. now he lives in malibu and his 'service' is driving poeple to and from LAX who are coming to the residence. he used to phone me and brag lazily about checking his stocks on the net to see when he's gonna become a millionaire. it has been more than a year since he called last. i blazingly severed our friendsip last year after being here and deciding I'd had enough. the next person i could consider a premie friend is a deaf guy i have been friends with since we met in larchmont hall in the 70's. I've known him 26 years. he still likes to go see MJ when theres and event here, but in the meantime, this guy goes to every other imaginable spiritual group you can think of. he lays out money to faith healers and bodyworkers, vainly believing that on of them is going to magically restore his hearing after being deaf for 49 years straight. he is either a saint or a fool. i don't know which. he has a business degree from galludet university, from before he got knowledge, but you have to wonder what he learned by it. every time i talk to him, he's telling me he's gonna get rich and get off disability with this new moneymaking scheme he's read of. it never happens. or else he brings over anew motivational book and tells me in all sincerity that THIS is the best one ever, that he's really gonna do it this time, he's gonna become the best the world has ever seen. at...art. photography. selling things. MLM. math. computers. flavor of the month. it's painful to see, really. we spent hours on the phone a few years ago when he decided he wanted a wife. just like that. he wanted my advice how. he thought his best bet was to send away to asia for a mail order bride. he was sure it woudl be the best marriage ever.... i took endless hours patiently trying to tell him that he woudl be far better off joining groups of social activities where people shared his real interests in life, and even, [gasp] his disability too. he was far more likely to find someone he was happy with, who understood and had experienced the same unique things about life as he had, than if he just shot wild. he couldnt seem to grasp the idea that a wife is not a lamp you go out and pick in a store and bring home and put in your living room, and then cross the task off the list and turn to another task. i gave up trying to make him understand. it's so excruciating. thinking further afield, i have seen one premie around my neighborhood that i knew pretty well in denver. she always seems distant and faraway when i run into her at the store, definitely not happy or sociable. thinking to events i went to at the hotel hall where they showed the videos before satellite days....nobody. didnt know a single face there, nor they, me. and no indicators of anyone wnating to be friends. didn't go back. my friends were the people i came with who lived with me. stretching further back.... denver in the 80's. the first guy who comes to mind is a bipolar who;s more down than up. lives in a halfway house board and care, looks like a 70 year old uncle but he's 30 years younger than that. scary.ghostly. affects 1920's suits for daytime wear. who else, who else... oh, wait--there is a guy who comes into the food co op somethimes here. dresses in literal sackcloth robes and carries a staff. goes by some indian name. white guy, young. i see him wandering the beach somemes too.hair grown out to fuzz, post bald headed. shiver. trying to think of who else. in denver, i dated a guy who received knowledge in prison for draft resistence. he was probably the first ex i really knew. so i guess that means i exed farther back than i realized. we were hot and heavy for about 6 years, the latter half of the 80's. he went into Science of Mind at last juncture. weird. premies havent been in my life as relationships since i left miami or gainesville, in 1981.i had two other premie friends in denver in the 80's, one male, one female, but those friendships ended in usury and anger. they used me. one ended in court. the guy was an alcoholic, runnng away from himself and dying of leukemia, last i knew, when i moved out here in 93. and the thing that husr the most whenever i went to programs at long beach or santa monica until i left, was how faces and people who i have known since 1973, people who should have known me and said hello and had something to talk about for all the years we were in this, looked straight thru me and gave no sign of recognition, even if i made deliberate effort to engage them and say hi. what does that tell you? wow...i've been out longer than i first realized. i haven't been a part of 'the community' since gainesville or miami in 1980. whew.

Subject: About the ''Honors''... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:23:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello all, This website is quite an interesting change, but for me not a surprise. In the Press section, one has to PAY for reprints. Notice how 'pasty' Prem's photo is. Bad airbrush artist on the Leader article! I wanted to comment on the 'Honors' section: Resolutions State of Connecticut General Assembly; Hartford, Connecticut Court of Common Council; Pennsylvania House of Representatives; Rhode Island General Assembly; Wisconsin Legislature. My emphasis in bold and italics. I know for a fact that the Connecticut 'resolution' was made by the father of a premie; the father was a long time member of the Connecticut House of Representatives and an attorney in Hartford. Notice there are no dates. The resolution was made long before I came to the cult. I lived in this ''Senator's'' home with his son. It was more of a gesture by the father to the son than an honor to Guru Maharaj Ji. And the resolution was made during a time when Guru Maharaj Ji (as he was called then) was still considered Lord of the Universe by all the premies. I'm just stopping by for now. Notice also on the link to press that the Prem Pal Foundation asks for money for reprints of the article in Leader magazine. Still all about money. FYI, I'm still reading here, but don't expect to post on a regular basis. These resolutions and proclamations are essentially meaningless. I couldn't let the Connecticut one go by without informing you, the exes, as well as the public of how weak this new website is, and to publish these 'honors' is grasping at straws. Btw, I'm doing much better after my recent 'relapse' and explosion of anger over on LG and AG. However, I still need more time in order to work on my own well being. Also, I want to say that those of you on this forum have been having wonderful discussions. Until later... Love, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA Honors Link www.tprf.org/pr_honors.htm

Subject: so they know the facts From: forward this to LEADERS To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:44:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cynthia's is a first person account of how that happened. janet

Subject: so they know the facts From: forward this to LEADERS To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:42:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cynthia's is a first person account of how that happened. janet

Subject: Not a Greenback Moves (nt) From: @ To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:57:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: É

Subject: Thanks Cynthia for that info. From: Kelly To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:34:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great to see you here again even if it is a brief visit. Take care care of yourself. Love Kelly

Subject: Polite, nonsexual and non-newagey hug From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:05:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Cynth, I owe you an email. How're you doing? Sorry about the hug too but Laurie was pissed off when I gave someone a cyber hug the other day. You know how she gets. :) (I am in serious trouble now! I'm not even going to answer my phone, that's how much trouble.)

Subject: Re: Polite, nonsexual and non-newagey hug From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 13:02:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Please tell Laurie that I'm sending her a big hug. She can pass it on to you--non-sexually, of course.:) Not to worry, Laurie, my husband would be a bit mad if he knew I even posted here today...:) I just couldn't resist. And Laurie--thanks for your very encouraging email a few weeks ago. It helped me more than you could know. Well, that's it, my quota for the day! Cynth P.S. to Richard--I will email you soon...

Subject: Re: Polite, nonsexual and non-newagey hug From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 17:16:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia! Nice to see your name on a post again....you have been missed. Glad to hear you're doing better, and hope to see you back here lots when you're well and ready. Keep on looking after yourself. Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: One more...a dream I had last night... From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 14:14:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One more post....:) I had a strange dream last night about attending a goomraji program. The dream: It took place in the present with all the new revisionism. I was still a premie, but returning after many years, much like my real-life experience so I was not familiar with all of the changes. All of my old Hartford premie friends were there in a small auditorium, not aged, but as I remember them from 1979. There was a choice of seating, real comfortable and moderately comfortable chairs. The moderately comfortable seats were better than the plush ones. I kept testing each chair out but decided to just sit down and wait. There were many mazes within this very large facility and small auditoriums with these seats. One premie was smoking a joint and wanted to pass it to me, but I felt weird that he would smoke dope at a goomraji program. I kept asking myself what was going on. This is very weird. I started to doubt. No one would explain anything to me. I decided to walk through the maze in this very large facility--up many stairs into other rooms and down many stairs. I got lost but found someone's coat with a book with special addresses and secret information in it. Wow, I thought, I have some secret information. My honesty won out when the premie came and asked if anyone had seen the book and coat. I gave them back. But I had already looked at the book. The premies were segregated from eachother for some reason--by community. Mini auditoriums with many empty seats with coats on them were all over the place--apparently premies were saving them for late arrivals who never came. At one point, on the drive to where the program was taking place, one premie was having a problem with being in a car and we had to keep putting down the shades in the car windows so the light and passing scenery didn't disturb her. She couldn't stand the light because it hurt her eyes and head. There were peformances by premies for goomraji and personal interviews. I didn't see goomraji once. He was having personal conferences with certain premies, but I declined, getting more angry at him for delaying the program and being so obtuse. Finally, the main program began and we were facing a large blank cement wall instead of the stage--no video, no nothing. Goomraji was on a stage, but no premies were could see him or hear him. We were all facing cement. Hmmm....I started to wonder, what the hell is going on? I became upset...all these premies came from so far to see goomraji and he won't let them see or hear him? At this point I understood goomraji was a jerk and a fraud--and I decided to leave him forever. I told all the other premies that I thought goomraji's strange behavior was stupid and vain. I told everyone I was leaving goomraji to become an ex-premie. Then I walked away. End of dream.

Subject: Holy cow, Cynthia - very Freudian From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:28:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a great dream! I hope you put your dreams in your ''Imagination'' folder on your hard drive and don't get your tits in a tangle about them. This one was particularly ''realistic'' and fraught with the horror of finding that the messiah was simply another huckster. That's no little thing. I have very vivid dreams which always amaze Chuck and Andy. Salvador Dali used to eat lots of cheese before going to bed so that he would have nightmares to inspire his limp-watch/giraffes-on-fire paintings. He was a good businessman in spite of the fact that his diaries always begin each day with a detailed description of his bowel-movements. I watch my imagination. It's fun but usually more for me than others. I love that song: ''It's just my imaginaaaaayation runnin' away with me.''

Subject: To Pat RE: Dream... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 17:09:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually it was a good dream. When I woke up I felt great. And don't worry, my tits aren't tangled or anything like that...:) I do have a very active dream life, though... Interesting about Dali.

Subject: Some of my dreams are better than movies From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 18:44:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can have Chuck and Andy in stitches with my bizarre dreams. Now if only I could paint like Dali.....

Subject: Love you Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:02:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am so glad you are doing well. Be strong, fierce lady of Vermont. You know you have my total support.

Subject: Excuse me while I puke (nt) From: Angrie Frenchie To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:09:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: suggestion Re Leader and Jims contact From: Zelda To: Angrie Frenchie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:38:39 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Considering that the Leader staff may be inundated with exs tossing in their 2 bits- and that can have a negative effect-- I think it would be better to let Jim handle the correspondence until this Daryl gets his bearings by consulting with EPO and Jim.

Subject: Hi Zelda -- agreed From: Marianne To: Zelda Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 16:18:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Zelda is right about this. Tim G however, was a honcho in Ireland, and can offer a unique perspective. I encourage him to communicate with the editors. Just be careful before you decide to act folks. It's a free world. The ball has started rolling. Think it through before you leap into the fray by contacting Darryl. Marianne

Subject: Avoiding an EX frenzy From: Zelda To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 17:23:26 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hi Marianne A stampede on a green editor would put exs in a unseeming light -so perhaps the exs could send their posts to Jim/Tim and they can pass them to Daryl as needed....? Zelda

Subject: EV PR Team Report (lineage) From: John Macgregor To: All Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:56:03 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Here’s the other section of the EV International PR Team Report from 1997. The section posted last week canvassed strategies for dealing with the emerging threat of EPO and the Forum. This week we have the section dealing with various lineage-related matters. This report was written by Glen Whittaker - head of EV UK and part of EV’s International PR Team - for Ros Sutton, who in 1997 was EV’s international PR ‘supremo’. I’ve re-included the Introduction, to provide a bit of context. Res ipsa loquitur - ‘the thing speaks for itself’. Best Regards, John PR CONSIDERATIONS - AUGUST 1997 REPORT BY G.W. FOR R.S. It seems to me Ros that the two major areas where adverse PR could occur over the next period, say the next two years, are (1) the growing interest in and knowledge of the so-called Rhadasoami Tradition which would claim thart M is just one of several teachers forming part of a new Indian religious tradition, giving out a similar message and teaching similar meditation techniques, and (2) the rapid growth in discussion on the Internet on M, which has several negative aspects. I will address both of these briefly and comprehensively, so that you can have an understanding of what is out there without spending too much time delving into it yourself. 1. The Rhadasoami Tradition. This has been brought into public attention, albeit to a very small extent, by the work of two west coast academics, Mark Juergensmeyer, Professor of Sociology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and David Christopher Lane, Professor of Philosophy at Mount San Antonio College, Walnut, California. Juergensmeyer has written the major work, 'The Rhadasoami Tradition', hardback 1991, paperback 1996, with the help of David Lane, while Lane has written other books and articles on the subject, notably 'The Rhadasoami Tradition- A Critical History of Guru Successorship', and in 1994 'Exposing Cults'. Jurguensmeyer's book contains an extensive bibliography of other related books, articles and publications, both in the west and in India. 'Rhadasoami Reality' by Juegensmeyer asserts that this tradition amounts to a new religious movement, whose originator was a well-known perfect master, Shiv Dayal Singh, from the 1850's to his death in 1878. Based in Agra, he named his own master as Tulsi Sahib, one of a lineage stretching back to the medieval 'sants', including Kabir and Nanak. Kabir is seen as either the source or a very major exponent of this teaching, and he in turn has his own followers today called Kabirpanthis. Dayal Singh is however considered the founder of the R.T because of his teaching success and writings, and the fact of being acknowledged as the common ancestor by 'more than a dozen separate lineages of living masters now current within the Rhadasoami fold'. The teaching of Tulsi Sahib and Shiv Dayal Singh are the importance of the master who can reveal inner sound and inner vision. To quote the book* 'Reaching one's ultimate home is what salvation in the Rhadasoami sense is all about. It is granted through the grace of the divine master, but by arduously following the instructions of 'surat shabd yoga', followers have the opportunity of participating in their own salvation. Initiation into these practices is tantamount to baptism in the faith.' Shiv Dayal Singh said 'the reason the Supreme Being manifests itself in the form of a master is to explain the secret of his original abode and teach the method of attaining the abode. He gained a large following and on the site of the field where he went to meditate, now a community called Soamibagh, an elaborate marble tomb in his memory is being built which is intended to rival the nearby Taj Mahal. After the death of the many 'masters' since that time, there is invariably a disputed succession, resulting in various claimants, usually including sons or close relatives. Of five following the 'founder', one, Jaimal Singh, was a Punjabi soldier stationed temporarily in Agra who began a lineage in his home town of Beas. One of his successors was a remowned teacher, Sawan Singh (master from 1903 to 1948), who had British and America devotees, one of whom, Julian Johnson, wrote two 'bestsellers' about his experiences called 'With a Great Master in India', and 'Path of the Masters'. Sawan Singh was succeeded by, amongst five claimants, Kirpal Singh (48-74) - I shall mention something called the 'Kirpal Statistic' later - and simultaneously by one Jagat Singh who led to a famous 'master' Charan Singh (51-90). Most were titled Maharai. (Charan Singh spoke at Chelsea Town Hall in early 1970, a meeting attended by our Charananand and some early pwk's, and this was the first occasion Venetia Stanley-Smith met Charananand, whom she claimed far outshone the guru). Of those succeeding in Agra, the main successor, seemingly appointed by the deceased master himself, was one Saligram, 1878-1898, who built up the movement as a large organisation. He was succeeded by, amongst others, one 'Misra' (1898-1907), one of whose two successors was Sinha (1907-1913), who also had two successors, one of whom was Anand Swarup, known as Sahebji Maharaj) whose dates were 1913 to 1937. it appears this is the same person as Sarupanand, the master of Shri Hans. Shri Hans however is not mentioned in the book at all, the main successor of Anand Swarup being one Gurchandras Mehta (1936-75) succeded by the still living but very elderly Dr. MB. Lal. At the foot of the complex geneological table from which the above is taken is the note 'a number of gurus and groups have not been included because of their modest size, organisation or impact.' We know via Patrick Wilson that Lane knows of Shri Maharaji so presumably, but inexplicably, he and Maharaji are covered by this note. Certain facts about the R.T are worth noting, 1 . There is a lot of talk about successorship. Sometimes someone is appointed by the previous master, more often there is an 'interregnum' then one emerges. He was 'lying low', waiting for the right moment to show himself. 2. The word Rhadasoami was not used by the originator, Shiv Dayal Singh (sometimes called Swami Shiv Dayal). It was first used by his successor Saligram who taught it as one of the names of God which could be meditated on. It seems to be a reference to Krishna, meaning literally 'lord of Rhada' (Krishna's wife). 3. The various R.T masters were all well-educated, all from the merchant class, and spoke English. They came from families which were more enlightened than most Indians, and which had embraced 'new varieties of reformed Hinduism such as Arya Samaj'. Anand Swarup had himself belonged to the Arya Samaj in his youth, and there is a claim that Arya Samaj's founder, Swami Dayanand, was initiated by Shiv Dayal Singh. So many Arya Samaj memebers convered to RT that a strong rivalry between the two groups arose. 4. Although a residential colony of R.T, (Agra branch) had grown up called Soamibagh, when Anand Swarup became master he started his own colony nearby called Dayalbagh. which grew to 12,000 and became a prosperous industrial community, manufacturing toiletires, footwear etc. For this, he was knighted. 5. Anand Swarup's successor, Mehta, was an enginneer who at first developed and expanded Dayalbagh but after India's independence it stagnated. His critics say he put too much emphaisis on economic development and ignored the spiritual side of the community, and when some of his sayings were published after his death in 1975 they reflected this, being concerned with organisational issues. 6. A major western NRM, Eckankar, founded by Paul Twitchell, who died in the '70's, is based on R.T. philosophy and meditation practices, Twitchell having been initiated by one of the early R.T masters who viisted the States; his many writings give a wierd and complicated philosophy, and involves 'astral travelling' and the significance of dreams. 7. All the writings on the R.T I have come across refer only to light and sound. They seem to miss or misunderstand the concept of the 'word' which they seem to confuse with inner sound. 8. A current living R.T. master, according to Juergensmeyer/Lane's genealogical table, is an American, Judith Lamblion, in Salt Lake City. Another, Rajinder Singh, has a centre in Chicago, while another, Thakar Singh, is in Dehra Dun. David Christopher Lane who compiled the genealogical tables published in the Juergensmeyer book, was and possibly is a catholic Christian who appears an authority on current cults, including R.T, and debunks them. He pointed out the criminal and sexually abusive activities of one famous American teacher, John Hoskins, founder of M.S.I.A., but the movement has nevertheless continued to grow. He is sympathetic to the cult surrounding the Californian guru, Da Free John, whom he thinks is a genuine insightful spiritual teacher but who demands total obedience in an extreme form from his followers, including sexual relations with females. This is to demonstrate Lane is not wholly concerned with the R.T. As I told you, the British Internet critic Patrick Wilson, told me that Lane had given the techniques of K to his pupils to demonstrate that they could work regardless of who reveals them. On reading Lane's book I find this is not altogether correct. In a section called the Kirpal Statistic he points out that Kirpal Singh, a well-known R.T 'master' who died in 1974, kept a record of 80,000 people initiated by him, hundreds at a time, and their experiences in the meditation session after the initiation. Most of them claimed to have had inner experiences of light and music. Even people initiated after his death by listening to a tape recording of the master giving initiation had similar experiences. To test this, Lane when teaching in a catholic high school in the early 1980's, darkened the room and simulated with some students an initiation where he asked them to focus on the proverbial third eye and touched them on the forehead. 'They then meditated for five minutes. To my amazement, since I felt that Kirpal Singh and others were actually transmitting spiritiual power, the majority of my students reported seeing light...others reported hearing sounds.' In years since he has done this several times with the same result. He concludes that anyone practising the techniques will have similar experiences. Hence he believes the claims of a master are debunked. 'You don't need to go to an Indian guru to have such experiences, you don't need to go anywhere at all.' The connection between this and the internet is that on the website are not only a detailed albeit oldfashioned description of the four techniques, together with diagrams, but a detailed discussion of the way M gives K. today, i.e. with the assistance of a video. The question is asked that if such a video became widely available, would it circumvent the need for M in person. This line of thinking is getting at the same point as Lane in his Kirpal Statistic. O.K., this is a general description of what the R.T research is all about and which might become more public knowledge as time goes by. It is not difficult to deal with it, though we have to assume the techniques will become more widely known. While Patrick Wilson thinks all this invalidates M's claim to be a special conduit for K, I think it reinforces his identity as true living master. It is especially to Shri Hans' credit that he kicked against the materialism of Dayalbagh and went his own way, putting K first. PWK's however might be confused by 1. the notion that there may be more than one living master at one time (Patrick Wilson claims to have an E-mail from Lane saying that Shri Maharaji was initiated by both Sawan Singh and Anand Swarup and also claims to know that the two masters co-existed in mutual respect), 2. that Anand Swarup was such a big deal rather than a small-time master 3, That he was based in Agra rather than up in present Pakistan 3. that there is simply such a vast quantity of documentation on the R.T. and its various 'masters).

Subject: Re: EV PR Team Report (lineage) From: Wilson is Whittiker perhaps? To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 21:45:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: we were all trapped in a Hindu cult!!! From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:01:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading the above, it's becoming apparent to me, and should be to anyone else for that matter, that we all became Hindus for a while. Whether Maharaji was from this lineage or that scarcely seems to matter. India is/was heavily populated with gurus and masters of every description, all teaching various disiplines and practices. The four techniques are a version of one of these disciplines. Some strains of Hinduism involve their masters claiming to be of divine or 'avatar' staus. The strain that we were involved in was one of these. Deep in our psyches were ideas of a coming Messiah figure. Being young, naive and idealistic we easily fitted Maharaji into the 'Messiah' role and he adoted it eagerly, seeing how willing we all were to jump on board. No wonder Indians I met over the years raised their eyebrows to heaven and told me gurus like Maharaji were two a penny in India, and that I had been well and truly hoodwinked. I met a Russian woman recently; we spoke about Gorbachev. She told me how much he was disliked over here and that the impression we had of him over here was way off the mark. Similarly, they tended to think highly of Margaret Thatcher - we knew otherwise. I think the same thing must have happened with Maharaji. Not being from a Hindu culture ourselves it was hard to see the truth. The meditation does work - well, it certainly does something, but whether it is of much use when trying to live within a western culture is open to question. Something about it is obviously less than beneficial in the lives of many premies (see Silvia's recent post containing a long descriptive list of premies in her home city). Whether that is due to the meditation itself or the effects of attempting to devote one's life to Maharaji remains to be seen. I personally suspect the latter, as many exes still apparently practise the techniques to no ill effect. Comments, anyone?

Subject: to LIV From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 15:03:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dunno where to start with this , but someone I am close to fits painfully into the type of personality dysfunction Sylvia has described and is still very entrenched in M .The person is incredibly talented and capable, but is sullen, lethargic, often close to tears and despite being very intelligent,talks in a very aggresive and non sensicle way after even a small amount of booze. I am having apretty tough time myself, feeling v. weird,so may not post here for some time; I am ill equipped to deal with this , but I recal some interesting factual posts about post traumatic stress disorder and the like which may be of help.Rabid anti M wont wash,but this thing of flattening emotions, tired and aching limbs with no apparent medical cause, propensity to alcohol and inability to integrate ones life into the mainstream, and having a tremendous amount of negative energy that spills out when positive suggestions are put forward seem to be a pattern I see a lot here amongst long standing pwks. Even exes and on the fencers are having to cope with serious psychological imbalances....is this just 'life stuff' , or is it linkable with cult behaviour? relevant links would be really useful.

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 06:14:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear AV, I was saddened to hear you've been having a hard time with it all - believe me, everybody here will understand: it's not easy, but it most definitely does get better with time. Yes, do read up everything you can about post-traumatic stress disorder, also there are some very good books about cults and the effects of extricating oneself from them and how to deal with the effects of it all. Anything by Steve Hassan is supposed to be very good, plus I have some other titles written down but nothing immediately to hand - I can get back to you later. I'm sure lots of people here can recommend much helpful reading material. Please do email me on liviadowte@hotmail.com and if you're in England we could talk on the phone - I'd be most happy to. I've really enjoyed your posts here - you've said many very intelligent, insightful and sensitive things. Things will get better, but it may not be best to isolate yourself at this time.... Anyway, you know what is best for you. All the very best to you, and much love, Livia

Subject: Best of luck, AV From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 01:47:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, You say you might not post for a bit because of what you're going through and I, for one, just want to say I've really quite enjoyed much of what you've had to say since you joined in. If you ever feel like it, for any reason, please feel free to email me: jimheller@shaw.ca Otherwise, all the best. Jim

Subject: to liv and jim From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 14:22:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where we would we be without real people with real hearts and real ways of getting in touch, you are helping so much,if only you knew, will be in touch, but have to get rid of a few serious phobias before i lose anonymity, is that ok? much love from me to XO

Subject: To AV (Tuesday 9th) From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 09:28:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear AV, Appreciate your message. BTW, you have hepled people here more tham you can imagine - I just hope you're coping OK. And don't worry about abandoning your anonymity - most of us haven't done that yet, in my view it doesn't have to be an issue until you're ready. I'm still not ready for that yet; I think it takes immense courage. Thinking of you.... With much love to you, Livia

Subject: To AV From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 15:32:32 (EDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: I've also enjoyed your posts here a lot and just wanted to say thanks. There is no doubt about it that it distressing to find out that the lotus feet are made of clay. It was an emotional roller-coaster for me for many months. I sure hope you have another real live ex to talk to in person but don't hesitate to email if you ever need to.

Subject: To AV, me too. From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 16:49:15 (EDT) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: I also have enjoyed your contributions. You've got a big heart, good mind (compliment hereabouts) and great sense of humor. My email address is above and anonymity is fine with me.

Subject: True living master?! From: Bryn To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:31:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I think it reinforces his identity as true living master' I'm glad you think that Glenn,(at least you did in '97). So why not just come out and say so? Spin, twist, control, yechh! Bryn

Subject: The informed Mr. Glen Whittaker From: Jerry To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 09:45:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It seems to me that Whittaker has done his homework on this matter and has focused on the fact that Rhadasoamis don't do breath techniques, or as Glen put it, they have no concept of the 'word'. I think this is true, but there is another Kabir sect, who do have breath techniques, along with sight and sound, called the Dharamdasis who trace their lineage back to Dharam Das, one of Kabir's first disciples. Is this where Maharaji comes from? Who knows? The point is that different sects focus on different meditation techniques but all of them have one basic tenet, that the master is a chosen manifestation of God, and THIS IS where Maharaji comes from. All of these friggin' gurus come from this belief, that the master is God in human form. The question remains.... which one of them really is? Some of them? None of them? It's absurd to squabble over the actual meditation techniques when the real issue is the divine nature of the guru. Just how divine is he? One thing's for certain, Maharaji has broke away from this claim of divinity, yet still claims he comes from a lineage that was very much into that assertation. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Subject: Re: The informed Mr. Glen Whittaker From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 17:18:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe it's all just Hinduism.....after all, what is Hinduism if it isn't this? We were all Hindus!!! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The informed Mr. Glen Whittaker From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:07:28 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Maybe it's all just Hinduism.....after all, what is Hinduism if it isn't this? We were all Hindus!!! Love, Livia --- Sure we were, and not just because of the guru tradition. We were also pantheists, believing in pantheistic ideas like reincarnation, karma and cycles of rebirth--standard Hindu thinking. Recognising pantheism in the premie world-view (and recognising pantheism's inherent limitations) was one of the main factors that got me out of DLM.

Subject: Funny what sneaks onto ELK From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 23:57:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A longing... A longing... To know you would come, and then you couldn't... it hurt To know your messenger was here, helping the new ones get Knowledge; it was wonderful to know so many little buds were blooming. To know your messenger was here, it was nice; Not to know that he had an event right here in my town- Not to have been informed when so many others did - that was very painful. It hurt, Maharaji, to know - after - when it was all over How cruel, unkind and insincere some can be - BUT I know, you are there - guiding me, giving me the love, care... I need to go within, but it hurts and still hurts - My heart longs and yearns, Please come soon. I need you, your love, There are many others who sincerely long for you - the aged, the older citizens, the unimportant, I speak for them, too. They yearn, they long to see you, hear you and be with you! Saras Singam Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Sorry for laughing, Saras. Really, it's not funny. I feel for you, in your pain and ridiculous expectations that Maharaji actually gives a damn about you. But you have to admit, it's quite a racket, isn't it? Can you imagine if you were dating someone and you stood them up and you somehow had them trained to think that all they had to do was close their eyes and there you were, inside, making it all alright again? Crazy, isn't it?

Subject: Talk about wishful thinking (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:59:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Funny what sneaks onto ELK -- II From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 23:54:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: truth is one but the path is many om shanthi i recieved knowledge in 1973 and although have been involved in many paths i still value what his message and knowledge brought me. i would like to see him again and hopefully i may.....peace and love to all Jamie York Plainfield, USA Blasphemy, huh? I wonder what the ELK guys think when they read these posts and consider Maharaji's possible reaction. 'Om Shanti'? Maharaji's killed for less. (just kidding!)

Subject: Re: Funny what sneaks onto ELK -- II From: Neville To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 11:12:41 (EDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Many paths, huh? I remember in the early days how premies used to say, 'All paths lead to God'. I remember one day having a truly Orwellian moment when a premie added, '...but only one will get you there.' I got out of DLM soon after this.

Subject: at www.tprf.org From: A Reincarnation To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 23:56:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check it out.

Subject: Does Rawat have something against the Irish? From: Opie To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:58:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listed in the 'what people say' is a guy living in Dublin, Ireland which is stated as part of the UK! Perhaps Tony Blair went to war whilst I was not looking? OP

Subject: Very smooth From: Richard To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:58:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As someone who works in advertising, I think the 'interview' and 'foundation' are very smooth and well created. I've got to hand it to the handlers. A foundation to help Mr. Rawat spread peace to the world? Wow, doesn't that just resonate with substantial respectability and integrity? But hey, wait a half a sec. Isn't that precisely what I signed on for some 30 years ago? Peace on earth begins within you/me and let's help GMJ do it? DLM-DUO-WWO-EV-TPRF. Hmmmm. As to how this 'interview' was arranged, I recently arranged for one of my clients to be featured in a trade magazine called Masters of Marketing. For the low, low cost of $5,475 my client became Master of (their product) Marketing and featured in an "advertorial" that I helped craft for them. By the way, every word of the piece I arranged for my client is true. Meanwhile, back at The Rawat Foundation. Very smooth makeover . .. BUT!!! There is an old saw in the ad/pr world: Good advertising or public relations will doom a bad product faster than it will make a good product successful. Time will tell but from experience I can predict the results.

Subject: Re: Very smoothie From: Roger eDrek To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:06:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, and very appalling.

Subject: Revisionism From: Still Frenchie but not Happie To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:55:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So he now officiates under his civilian name .What happened to Maharaji ? Soon, he'll claim he never was called that, let alone 'Guru M'... New disguise, same old shit. How long will this go one ? This is sickening. I am truly appalled.

Subject: Net searches and revisionism From: Marianne To: Still Frenchie but not Happie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:01:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the new name is also a way to make sure that people search for Prem Rawat, and not Maharaji, on the net, thereby getting his new site and cult name, not EPO.

Subject: meta tags at once From: let's update our To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 04:12:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to be where they will come looking.

Subject: Doesn't work, Marianne From: JHB To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 17:20:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Searching for Prem Rawat gives EPO pretty high even before I modified the site to take into account The Prem Rawat Foundation, so if that was the aim, their research was pretty poor. John.

Subject: Re: Net searches and revisionism From: Opie To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:59:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Assuming interested people do a search via Google this is what they will get on 'Prem Rawat' as of a couple of minutes ago. The first six sites listed refer readers to unbiased opinions of Prem Rawat before seekers (of truth) get a link to Maharaji's contributions to cyberspace. Perhaps Prem Rawat sould change his name to something really obscure? This will give him a window of clear space before the search engines catch up again - I would say max 7 hours. Lettre Ouverte à Prem Rawat - [ Translate this page ] ... Ma Lettre Ouverte à Prem Rawat. Voici la traduction d'un email adressé à Mr Rawat, et d'un message que j'ai envoyé sur le forum anglais le 23 février 1999. ... www.ex-premie.org/papers-fr/o_letter-fr.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages Open Letter to Prem Rawat Back to the Indian Background Index. My Open Letter to Prem Rawat. Here is a copy of a post I've made on the English forum on February 23, 1999. ... www.ex-premie.org/papers/o_letter.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.ex-premie.org ] Monica & Claudia ... I heard similar stories from other 'sisters'. I have dna samples of prem rawat and I am sending some to various people. Someone with one strand of navlata's ... www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/Sex/sex1.htm - 12k - Cached - Similar pages The agony that led to suicide ... From Nigel To Prem Rawat, Perhaps, if you can budge those calorifically-challenged cheeks from their comfortable throne for a minute, you might care to ... www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/Lost/lost5.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.geocities.com ] I Object to Prempal Rawat - [ Translate this page ] ... le Seigneur de l'Univers, est également connu sous les noms de Prem Rawat, Maître, Maître Parfait Vivant, Maître Parfait, Seigneur, Prem Pal Sing Rawat ... perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/index-fr.htm - 72k - Cached - Similar pages I Object to Prempal Rawat ... of Elan Vital and Mr. Prem Rawat, I think that everyone should get the opportunity to see these special Easter Eggs and I will tell you where to find them. ... perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/ - 98k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from perso.club-internet.fr ] Maharaji Design and content 2001 Prem Rawat Reproduction by permission only. in.maharaji.org/ - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Subject: Re: Net searches and revisionism From: cq To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:38:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji's attempts at ditching the past by re-branding himself (echoes, perhaps, of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh who, after being expelled from the USA, re-branded himself as 'Osho'?) won't help him as far as internet searches are concerned. The alltheweb.com search engine gives 35 results for the phrase 'Prem Rawat'. 27 out of those 35 entries link directly to the ex-premie.org website! Though somehow 'www.maharaji.org' gets to No. 1 on the list - anyone got any ideas how/why?

Subject: Re: Net searches and revisionism From: Angrie Frenchie To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:28:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've got one suggestion for M. Rawat : now that you officiate under a new identity, why not go one step further and change your line of work all togethet and get a REAL JOB !

Subject: Open Financial Reporting! From: JHB To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 00:53:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's some good news:- This section will provide an online annual report and relevant financial information as well as a link to the web site of the Attorney General of California, allowing anyone to view and download the 990-PF financial reporting form filed by the Foundation each year. In this spirit of openness, can we see Elan Vital's accounts for the last 20 years? And if not, why not? John.

Subject: Lookups(NT) From: Opie To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:38:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: I wonder what the IRS will want to know From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 01:40:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Prem Rawat Foundation has applied to the IRS for a tax exemption. Once this is granted, your gifts to the Foundation will be tax deductible (including those made previously) as provided by law. Interesting. I wonder if the IRS will take any interest in the true history of Maharaji and his now-several organizations. Only one way to find out.

Subject: We were wrong - the cult's not dying From: JHB To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 00:50:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Between February 22 and March 10 [2002], Prem Rawat addressed audiences of more than 45,000 persons and more than 25,000 people were shown the techniques of Self-Knowledge. The DVD player in India has sure been busy! John.

Subject: It's all about giving From: JHB To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 00:39:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Giving to Maharaji that is:- As a gift from one heart to another, Prem Rawat offers inspiration, a message of hope, and a pathway to inner contentment in the form of Self-Knowledge. He offers this free of charge to anyone with a sincere interest. Those who feel touched by this message and wish to express their appreciation are welcome to do so. Each expression of gratitude is important as it helps The Prem Rawat Foundation to make his message available to people worldwide. The Prem Rawat Foundation has applied to the IRS for a tax exemption. Once this is granted, your gifts to the Foundation will be tax deductible (including those made previously) as provided by law. For additional information, or to give via other means, please contact giving@tprf.org Do you think the IRS will grant tprf tax exemption if they know his true mission? John.

Subject: write the IRS- say no! From: jane6t To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:25:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you think the IRS will grant tprf tax exemption if they know his true mission? not if they get a bag ful of letters from all over the world alerting them to the history and past reality of the request. they are going to think it's a new thing unless they are pointed to the previous incarnations of this racket. snail mail, telephone, email, generally raise a stink ntil they comprehend. its like that moment in the wedding ceremony when the priest says 'if anyone here knows why these two should not be joined in marriage, speak now-- or forever hold your peace'. speak now.

Subject: ***M's NEW ORGANIZATION!!*** From: Jim To: A Reincarnation Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 00:35:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the link. So this is the website for M's new organization, the Prem Rawat Foundation. I'm just looking it over now but a couple of things are pretty funny right off the top: 1) The insignia looks exactly like a naked, very buxom woman in supine repose. Everything but the nipples. Hilarious. 2) M has an 'Honours' page where he brags about all the dumbass pr stunts premies pulled off before M got laughed off the world stage. For example, receiving the key to the city of Detroit, a function that was catered to by one Pat Halley, I believe. Anyway, the site boasts, pathetically: Special distinctions include an address to the United States Citizen’s Congress. Recently, a prayer he wrote in response to the tragedies of September 11, 2001 in the United States was selected by the Library of Congress for inclusion in the archival records of that event. Does anyone know anything about this so-called 'address to congress'? I can envision Maharaji being supoenaed there but that hasn't happened yet. What's this all about? And what's with this Library of Congress thing? We all saw M's trite expression of concern. You can't tell me that someone in the Library of Congress saw that and thought 'Oh my God, that's so profound! We need to preserve this for posterity.' So how'd that happen? www.tprf.org

Subject: the logo-i think From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:40:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it looks more like a giant ass in hasty retreat. as is fitting for a trademark/logo/insignia representing u-no-hoo.

Subject: the real context From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:34:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: everything that gets published in the united states goes into the library of congress. period. doesn't matter what.you send it to them, they archive it. take special note of the title of that 'congress' so pompously cited. it doesn't say the governmental congress of the united states of america, by the title legally used whenone means the two houses of congress that convene in washington DC and draft legislation. it says 'citizen's congress. it's meant to fool you. think 'resumé fudging'. think pulling a fast one. the one time maharaji ever spoke in DC at any event remotely like addressing the government was at a prayer breakfast he was invited to in 1974 by one Rabbi Korff, who was a Nixon supporter in the watergate era before Nixon finally turned tail and fled in disgrace. We used to have footage of it in movies we showed in satsang. Think awhile and you'll remember. In other words, it's all bullshit, dressed up like chocolate. candy bars and turds look just the same from a distance. If you were close, you know the difference. And we all were.

Subject: All puff and fluff From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:33:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, excuse me, but this Prem Rawat fellow sure has got chutzpah - TPRF? Does he honestly believe that the IRS will NOT be hearing from a few disgruntled former donors? I notice that he has dropped the Pal from Prempal. Maybe that's because he intends putting Paypal on his website for donations and the similarity between the two names would be off-putting to the faithful. Jim: ''Does anyone know anything about this so-called 'address to congress'? I can envision Maharaji being supoenaed there but that hasn't happened yet. What's this all about?'' Rev Rawat addressed some Congressional committee back in 1970 something. I heard an audio tape of it. He said something about the Declaration of Independence's promise of the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and that he agreed with that and happiness was exactly what his mission was all about. That's it. It was about five minutes. Jim again: ''And what's with this Library of Congress thing? We all saw M's trite expression of concern. You can't tell me that someone in the Library of Congress saw that and thought 'Oh my God, that's so profound! We need to preserve this for posterity.' So how'd that happen?'' You can send stuff to the LoC to be preserved. His ''prayer'' was one of twenty-five million expressions of sorrow received and boxed for posterity after WTC. Now you know why they're running out of storage space. Methinks the magazine article might also turn out to be such a piece of boasting, perhaps ''vanity publishing.'' He probably paid for it to be published. Yes, you can do that. I have - for the Objectivist Newsletter 20 years ago. What a peacock. His vanity will be his downfall. All puff and fluff.

Subject: Maharaji featured in LEADERS Magazine... From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:27:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Via the Media Collections link, there is a page that says this: The April 2002 issue of LEADERS Magazine features a number of world leaders. Prem Rawat is featured as the leader in the field of Self-Knowledge. In this article, Prem Rawat gives his first interview to a magazine in nearly thirty years. He speaks of his passion for his work, of his message, and of Self-Knowledge. LEADERS' circulation includes: Chairmen, presidents, board members, chief financial officers, and chief information officers of major multinational corporations. Major global investors in labor, corporate, and government pension funds worldwide. Political and government leaders worldwide Media Collection, recent press: www.tprf.org/media_recent.htm

Subject: read the article here Take2 From: cq To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:44:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope the above pdf link works - if it doesn't you can go to this page on M's site and click the 'preview excerpts from this article' button. Oh, and here's the address and phone no for The Prem Rawat Foundation, should anyone care to make further enquiries: Name: The Prem Rawat Foundation Address: P.O. Box 241498 City: Los Angeles State/Region: CA Country: United States Postal Code: 90024 Telephone: (310) 845-3535 http://www.tprf.org/images/pdf/leaders_article_042002.pdf That logo, by the way - anyone want to guess who? (scroll down for the answer) Alfred Hitchock! Leader's Magazine pdf file www.tprf.org/images/pdf/leaders_article_042002.pdf music.mpr.org/features/9908_hitchcock/images/hitchcockpresents.gif

Subject: That's hilarious! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 12:10:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I saw the bum too but didn't mention it. (I guess that says what kind of man I am). But this Hitchcock thing is perfect. There's one other image, though, that comes to mind .....and that's the old Lulu comic. But I'll still go with the tits.

Subject: but the plagiarism Rawat had in mind was From: cq To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 14:32:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of course, the less-than subtle plagiarism Rawat had in mind could have been this! www.starweb.net/rolls/gifs/logo.gif

Subject: What a Freudian slip! From: Tonette To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:28:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's too much! What do you want to bet that his little 'foundation' logo changes in the very near future after the monitors pick up your little observation cq? Would not surprise me at all. OMG, that's funny cq. Laughing here. I still don't know how you perceive the so obvious when most everyone misses the obvious, glaring, missteps made by Ralwat and his minions. You do this time and time again. Thanks, Tonette

Subject: Perfect, Chris! From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:38:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How'd you think of this? God, I'd almost be willing to bet a lot of money on this. It's too close. In fact, if anything, it explains why they went out of their way to make M's curves so round, just so they could avoid catching flak from Rolls. I mean, it's not as if Maharaji's a stranger to the symbol, is he? How many has he had over the years? Good one indeed!

Subject: I wondered why it looked familiar - that's it! [nt] From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 09, 2002 at 19:11:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Whichever way you look at it, It's just PR nt From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 15:40:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: read the article here From: cq To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:42:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope the above pdf link works - if it doesn't you can go to this page on M's site and click the 'preview excerpts from this article' button. Oh, and here's the address and phone no for The Prem Rawat Foundation, should anyone care to make further enquiries: Name: The Prem Rawat Foundation Address: P.O. Box 241498 City: Los Angeles State/Region: CA Country: United States Postal Code: 90024 Telephone: (310) 845-3535 http://www.tprf.org/images/pdf/leaders_article_042002.pdf That logo, by the way - anyone want to guess who? (scroll down for the answer) Alfred Hitchock! Leader's Magazine pdf file music.mpr.org/features/9908_hitchcock/images/hitchcockpresents.gif

Subject: FA please remove above post From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:46:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I screwed up with the pic link and the url link. (the post called 'read the article here Take 2' is the one to keep)

Subject: Re: Maharaji featured in LEADERS Magazine... From: x-wired To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:24:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wasn't there a quote that went something like: 'it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to receive knowledge' or did I get that very wrong?

Subject: Re: Maharaji featured in LEADERS Magazine... From: Bolly Shri To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:36:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surprise! Surprise! Corporate god is sharing data with the big boys. He really has made it, the rich con artists hang together, sniffing the same drains, playing the same games. Offer the punters something they can't live without after convincing them they're lives are worth nothing as they stand. Big snake oil salesman finds true friends, they look just like what we sought to distance ourselves from whenwe heard about m

Subject: letters to the editor are in order From: janet To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:45:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: let's be sure the readership gets some alternate feedback from us. where do we send it to?

Subject: Re: letters to the editor are in order From: Opie To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 04:25:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are some details on Leaders Magazine: Contact Information 59 East 54th Street New York, NY 10022 USA Tel: 212-758-0740 Fax: 212-593-5194 Electronic mail General Information: info@leadersmag.com Sales: dschner@leadersmag.com Editorial: dbrown@leadersmag.com Webmaster: marnold@leadersmag.com Audited circulation for 3-month period ending June 2001 was approx 35,000. Leaders www.leadersmag.com/

Subject: Leader -- of a cult From: Marianne To: Opie Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 06:53:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, he certainly is a leader -- of a cult. I am sure the editors of this magazine would be interested in some photos, words to Arti and LOTU, comparisons to Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. Marianne

Subject: How scary! From: Oooooh, Marianne To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 23:19:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An apt comparison. Except for the small, possibly insignificant fact that he has a few hundred thousand extremely satisified customers all over the world...who are all A - still living and B - have free will and years of their own, personal testing, choice and highly satisfying experience in the matter. But I guess all those people don't count in your eyes. Could it be that you've shot your one and only Jim Jones wad a few times too many. Is that a possibility?

Subject: just my words From: Ulf To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:27:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Marianne This really bothers me , Now he is in Leaders Magazine , for our money. This is to fucking much . I sure hope , that some of the gifted writers here , will write to the Editors of this Magazine , giving them link for E.P.O. And perhaps let us all know , what you are writing. ? Ulf

Subject: Re: just my words From: cq To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 08:46:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Strange, isn't it, how just a few months ago, M's own website quoted him as saying 'I'm not a leader'?. Strange also, that he's apparently seeking publicity again - and in a magazine like 'Leaders'. What's stranger is that the article in Leaders appears to have been authored by none other than, quote, 'The Prem Rawat Foundation, Los Angeles'. Anyone know anything about this rag? Click here for Leaders Article excerpts www.tprf.org/images/pdf/leaders_article_042002.pdf

Subject: Newsworthiness quotient just went up From: Marianne To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 11:56:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, this article, the attempted recasting of his identity and the information about 'honors' on the website of the new foundation which is trying to get IRS charity deduction status just made the newsworthiness of Captain Rawat and his cult jump into another stratosphere. Gee, won't reporters be interested in the 'one true living master' discussion in Glen's 1997 memo and the identity the Captain is trying to develop now? Won't the editors of Leaders magazine be interested to know too? Thanks so much, cult PR hacks. You have done an outstanding job. Really. I am very excited about all this. Marianne

Subject: he should tell them his side From: get michael dettmers To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 04:33:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in their next issue, where they will print a world famous retraction--probably a first ever for them and their readership. and that WILL be newsworthy. janet schwartz

Subject: I miss the bliss - belief is relief From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 15:12:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sometime in December of 2000 I started realizing that what I detested about the cult most was Rev Rawat himself. Uptil then, if I felt blah and uninspired, I would watch a video of him and be re-inspired. Then I saw the video of Hans Jayanti in India in the previous November and Rawat sang. It was such a farce - my immediate thought was that he was drunk and did not realize how foolish he looked and how horrible he sounded. A week later I watched the Atlanta Training video and had to turn it off as it was so nauseating. But the disillusionment went back much further. I can remember thinking a year before that how perfectly silly the man was. I was watching a video of him in Fiji. That was the first time he used the saying: ''Belief is relief.'' Needless to say it was not the last time. In fact it became the most-repeated Maharajism of the following year. However the fact remains that his sillyisms remained obscured from my BS-detector for a long long time and my affection for him and belief in him kept me going for many years. Belief really is relief. Belief in a personal living lord got me through tough times. I did not have to worry about if there was a real god or not or if there was life after death or any of that heavy stuff. He fed me fairy tales and made me feel nice. I miss all that magical thinking and sometimes still wait for omens and serendipitous events to occur to guide me through life. I miss having Santa, the Tooth Fairy and Jesus all rolled into one chubby Hindu from Hardwar. I miss the mindless bliss. Okay so now I've fessed up. What's left for me to do? I guess I will just have to start growing up at the age of 55; take responsibility for myself; be strong and stoical in the face of my mortality and fears. But it was so nice to have Mommy Maharaji read me soothing bedtime stories for 28 years. Really it was. That's why premies still cling to him. Well, now I'm on my own and it's tough to be strong and independent. Maharajism is a hard habit to kick which is why I am not as stern with premies as some are.

Subject: My sentiments entirely PatC [nt] From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 23:10:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I miss the bliss - belief is relief From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:43:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat C, Now he's out the way,haven't you noticed how many truly inspiring people there are in the world. Not the ones who do it for profit and call it prophet, the ones who just apear when you are feeling low and they make you laugh cry shout or just take off for a walk. Life is good love etc. and jai

Subject: You deserve a break today . . . From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 17:40:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You deserve a break today . . . Why not throw your mind away... At Muhwaaaji's! (sung to the McDonald's jingo) Very nice confession, Pat. It was sweet to believe in Santa Ji, Tooth is the conciousness of bliss, and God what took a bod. But, alas (and alad) we all must grow up or risk staying infantilized forever. I like to refer to That Place as the White Knight Syndrome. WKS is the feeling that if only someone (noble knight on horseback) or something would save me from all this craziness / loneliness / existentialness / whatever, then I would be happy / fulfilled / complete / whole / whatever. In 1997, I was sitting in Long Beach convention center thinking, 'Yeah that's the ticket, I'll just let go and this feeling will make me whole.' I immediately saw it for the fantasy it was and snapped out of it. Very seductive to think I could be saved. Guess what? By facing the world I live in and dealing with my emotions and being honest with myself, I am more whole and fulfilled.

Subject: me too pat From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 17:38:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i also think that we need to extend the hand of friendship to those who want to take it. I have almost forgotten how shaky, scared and hyper-sensitive exiting made me feel. Its easy to throw our weight around once we are 'free'... I have been guilty of it myself.. but actually to say 'yes it felt good, but now its time to move on' is, to me, an important bridge between a state of insular 'bliss' and emotional denial, and the both gradual and dramatic .. almost 're-birthing' which I went through as an aspirant ex. I can still remember when criticising Maharaji felt disloyal and horrible. Then it became a healthy counter-balance to decades of subservience... and now.. he is unwatchable. Actually thats not quite true...I can stomach nostalgia vids (ie ones which meant something to me at the time) - but I cannot listen to his 'clarity'... in fact its interesting how what , not so long ago, was inspiring and life-affirming, now seems dangerously loaded... like the heroin buzz. Addiction to a self perpetuating comfort zone and belief system is probably harder to crack than smack... except for one thing... times have changed. The zeitgeist is no longer with him, and all those very good, inspiring reasons on the Finch scale which brought us to him, optimism, meditation, peace, socialising and foot fetishes would now carry us away from him.. if we let them. The problem is that we get stuck. A seeming answer to an 'inner' question can pin us down like rabbits in the headlamps of an oncoming car... all our defenses blurr and pretty soon, we cannot remember or feel where our edges were, and where we stopped and maharaji took over. Surrendering the regns of your life is something the weary and the weak do all too willingly... but we need to be reminded (because a BAD teacher will never remind you of this one) that it is natural and right and NOT an insult to a true teacher to take em back when you are good and ready. It is thoroughly desirable to outgrow the need for him. When that doesnt happpen.. then something is wrong.. especially when he trades on an emotional level. So long Maharaji, thanks for all the fish... now fuck off !

Subject: The Good Old Days From: Will To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 17:37:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some positives about the Good Old Days: Personally, I always felt that Maharaji looked the part, especially his Buddha-smile. Another positive aspect was the feeling of excitement and happiness when he was around. Another positive was reading his early satsangs, when he was just a kid. Another positive was the community atmosphere and shared dedicated to an ideal. Another was the ideal itself, which for me was the Knowledge of all Knowledges, as it was prescribed in the scriptures, especially the Upanishads. Another was vegetarianism and green philosophies. Another positive was being around other people who weren't patriotic or business-oriented, both of which I couldn't tolerate. I also enjoyed meditation and a lot of the New-Age accoutrements. The best part of my premie life was the two years I was an aspirant, in 1973-1975. I was never turned down for Knowledge, I just didn't ask for it for a long time. I liked being an aspirant, and didn't want to have to give satsang. Everything was potential. I was optimistic. I figured everything was going to turn out right. All the premies would realize the Knowledge and Maharaji would be pleased. Of course, things didn't turn out like I expected. Even people who still pursue Maharaji and the Knowledge surely must have substantial disappointments. My biggest disappointment is of course that Prempal is not enlightened and doesn't know shit about what he's talking about. He's a very messed up individual. Only when you grant him all benefit of the doubt is he beautiful. (And it must be granted that he plays the part rather well). But when you realize there is no truth and reality to him, then he becomes quite a pathetic and ugly figure. I really don't see any middle ground here. I know it must be very difficult for some premies who see Rawat's apparent beauty to even imagine that he could be either insincere or deluded. Either way, it's just so ugly. One of the first hints about Rawat for me was his discourse. The satsangs from age 8 and a few years onward were fittingly impressive for a Perfect Master of his age. And he was still inspiring when he first came to the West. But soon, his lack of ordinary education and his lack of any real connection to higher conscousness became apparent and was very painful to notice. I read Da Free John's books with envy for his devotees, (of course Da's kind of high-fallutin claptrap isn't real either). My second biggest disappointment concerns enlightenment, the kind that all the gurus and scriptures talk about. But this isn't really a disappointment for me really, because I'm glad now that I feel that humans are not made to become enlightened. I'm glad about this in the same way that I'm glad that human beings are not sinners in need of salvation. I now see enlightenment or any human aspiration toward spiritual perfection as seriously misguided. It's apparent to me that Rawat shares my disillusionment with 'enlightenment.' But without enlightenment there is no function for a guru, and Rawat isn't ready to accept that fact or to 'evolve' fully in the direction that he has been 'evolving.' So his present teaching is an absolutely hopeless mish-mash of silly contradictions, all designed to further his own personality cult. Nothing Rawat says has anything to do with something that is actually real and realizable for human beings. If he did have 'IT', then premies would be exuding 'IT' and other people would be clamoring for 'IT.' But we all know that none of those things are happening, and they aren't going to be happening, ever, for Mr. Rawat and his cult. Guruism and God in a Bod is not what nature intends. And that's good, because it's a giant contradiction anyway. And human beings merging into the ocean of consciousness may or may not be in the cards eventually, (as far as I know), but to attempt to force the issue by practicing meditation techniques or all the other things people do is just plain silly, and unhealthy. It's far better to leave perfection to that which is perfect and go ahead with the business of being who we are. We're really not so bad, because we have love in us, and that's the only secret ingredient we need to be happy. There's nothing really to miss about the old days, maybe just a nostalgia for past loves and dreams. But there is no cause for regret either, because whatever kindness we gave or received will stay with us. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a premie these days. How much can a person redirect his own thinking to go along with the evolution? Contrary wise, how much are the same old concepts still being held on to? But the central question must be this: is Maharaji and Knowledge really about 'knowing' something and thus different from all other religions? Afterall, that was the big thing when I was an aspirant: 'Maharaji's Knowledge is not a religion, it is an experience, an experience of knowing, not believing.' But no, premies are just like any other religious person with a set of beliefs. Following Maharaji is not about Knowing, it's all about NOT-knowing, needing what one doesn't have; exactly like all the religions are about not knowing, not having, being separate from the real good and needing to be fixed. I don't think that human beings need much philosophy. They don't need a lot of wisdom. Here is all the wisdom and all the philosophy we need: 'accept yourself as you are, and accept others as they are.' Presto, peace; presto, no war; presto, no perfection; presto, no heaven and all its rules; presto, no religion. If Mr. Rawat really truly cared about world peace, this is all he would be saying. And if that is what premies were experiencing, then they would have something real to celebrate at Amaroo.

Subject: Re: The Good Old Days From: Livia To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 17:23:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will, that was one beautiful post - reading it gave me the same feeling I used to have at satsang in the early days. Magic! (I really mean it.) Lots of love, Livia

Subject: Excellent Post, Will [nt] From: Tim G To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:22:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Fantastic post, Will! [nt] From: Jim To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:13:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Nice One Pat C From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 17:22:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I certainly get your point about the magical thinking/ tooth fairy syndrome. Where I differ though is that I'm delighted to live with uncertainty and no safety net/security. I think I love it because deep down I knew there was no protection against life and the Chubby Fella was a pipe dream made flesh. As I watch the Brits wallow in tradition @ the Queen Mum's passing (they do it well) I can't help seeing how much us humans crave for an outward form to make us feel secure. Living fresh without roots and cocoons (psychologically) is bloody difficult but it beats the so-called Knowledge hands down. It's the difference between fact and fiction. Greetings Tim

Subject: To Loaf, Pat et al From: AV To: Tim G Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 20:22:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting Pat, I was feeling shaky today too, feeling kinda lost but also knowing that my last attempts to listen to M and be moved the way it was in the days of innocence seem out of reach. By chance someone had given me an old tape of Yogananda, and what struck me was that he was advocating the practice of kriya yoga (which I guess must be in part like K..dunno) to increase one's love for God, and role of the Guru is seen as an intermediary, one who helps the disciple find God in his heart, and thereby in his fellow human beings and the creation at large. That felt quite comforting and enobling to me. Do you know that saying?; 'the Master points at the Moon, while his disciples sit and suck at his finger' what happens when the Master points at himself? where did God go? Is that what M is doing? I know a point came when God dropped out of the vocabulary, and in its place entered THAT PLACE WITHIN INSIDE etc etc and the absolute need to surrender to M to achieve that...as an end, in fact THE END in itself. Now I'm hearing someone talk about the end being your love for God, awakening into the greater reality.. Don't know what more to say except I've been trying in my own life to walk towards truth, even if I cant relate to M the way I used to ...yeah, I get nostalgic too, but I can't give up even tho' times get tough, spiritual-path-wise.

Subject: Hey, ya'll. Don't post on weekends From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:42:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All terrific responses but I have to stay up too late to read them because I work 14 hours days Sat and Sun. Will, your essay was full. I'll re-read it on Monday.

Subject: A Real Class Act your FA From: Person from LG To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 22:53:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you people must be so proud that your FA exhibits this kind of integrity and intelligence on your behalf at the Life's Great forum. 'Ya see, we good ole boys have plenty a dirty tricks up our collective anti-cult sleeves and if you want to escalate our debate by 'official' reports, police calls (like has already happened,) calls to our employers, that kind of stunt, why I'd be quite willing to respond in kind. However, unlike you cowards who attack private individuals, my efforts will be directed towards making a public fool and spectacle outta your 'Master' Oh, the material I have at my disposal, and such embarrassing stuff!. Ya see junior, I've really been restrained: I've only bitched about your guru in this rather private debate amongs ourselves. It is you who has chosen to broaden the fight and bring it into the public arena with your Australian Police report. Your boy is so vulnerable to publicity and it is so easy to do now, my advise to you all, is to shut your fucking mouths and keep your collective cult heads DOWN.' Ya, it's the genuine threat we've been waiting for.

Subject: I'm not god's perfect moderator boyfriend, sorry [nt] From: gerry To: Person from LG Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:30:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: So's your master From: Inside Edition To: Person from LG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:44:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Ya, it's the genuine threat we've been waiting for.' My God, dear premie, after all of the unbelievable shit your twisted master and his minions (and lawyers) have pulled around here, how can you even utter those words?

Subject: Yes, but consider what he was answering From: Jim To: Person from LG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:22:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry -- a real person -- was responding to this anonymous threat, I guess you'd have to call it, against me: This old buddy of mine was telling me how the Briefs in BC think ole Jimbo has definetly lost the plot. Always rabbiting on about this imaginary cult and his super heavy paranoid dreams. Seems the powers that be have just about had enough of him ; especially after that terribly damning report from the Australian Federal Police.(Hey! it was my pleasure!) Seems he may find himself on the reserves bench more and more...Awwwwh!! Most likely the mad ravings of Catweasel. Fact is, it's all lies, every bit of it and I guess it pissed Gerry off. Whatever.

Subject: Your unfortunate qualities?()) From: Catweasel Esq. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:49:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fact is that it's true. You're in denial. And I'm not the only Australian contributing on LG. But you are correct in one aspect. I have AN INTENSE DISLIKE OF YOU AND YOUR VERY QUESTIONABLE METHODLOGIES.:d

Subject: Cat's right. Let's shut the whole thing down (nt) From: Roger eDrek To: Catweasel Esq. Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:20:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hm, well he DOES make some excellent points [nt] From: Jim To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:47:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Tech help, anyone? Please? (OT) From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 14:30:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if anyone who's computer-savvy can help me with this glitch I've got. I can't use the edit feature on these forums. When I try to save the corrected post, instead of it doing so, my computer goes into this long, dragged-down mode, where a 'Realplayer' download window opens and my computer seems to be trying to save or download the post that way. It never works, in any event. The post doesn't get corrected and the download thing just freezes. I think I must have done something, sometime, to make my computer think everything it's going to save in any respect whatsoever is going to be saved as a 'Realplayer' file. I'd love to be able to turn that default off, if I could. Of all the people to not be able to fix typos, I'm the worst. Anyone? Thanks

Subject: Re: Tech help, anyone? Please? (OT) From: Opie To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 13:27:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim Not that I presenting myself as some sort of computer guru but try the following: Open Realplayer, go to preferences, content, uncheck 'enable automatic links', go to General (in prefs), uncheck 'allow autocenter to start in system tray', ok that, close down real player and then reboot. Hopefully realplayer will then not start up when you are posting an edit. If that does not work uninstall realplayer then reinstall. Beyond that press panic button. :) OP

Subject: Hey, what do you know? From: Jim To: Opie Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 15:31:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, OP. Done! :)

Subject: Re: Hey, what do you know? From: OP To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 15:58:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so you pressed the panic button eh? Good move :) Spring hast sprung here in the UK, the wine tastes good and life is cool! The cult recedes into the mists of time - just trying to stay on topic but failing miserably. Keep on truckin' Op

Subject: Another tech question - FA? From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:50:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This could be a related question. The last message in the 'View All' has been the same one for days now. It's Jim's 'That's it in a nutshell' post with a blank reply on the same line. Technical glitch or Jim, maybe you keep posting that every time a new thread goes up?

Subject: From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 14:25:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Who in this world wants us? From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:10:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: New document on EPO: Who in this world wants us ?' ... Nobody. Our father doesn't want us, our mother doesn't want us, our brothers don't want us, our uncles don't want us, our aunt doesn't want us, nobody wants us in this world. Except Guru Maharaj Ji.'

Subject: Re: Who in this world wants us? From: Bolly Shri To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:48:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brenda Lee song innit?

Subject: Hi JM, a question for you. From: Kelly To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 15:13:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just being lazy here, but have you any quotes on EPO from M's North American tour of 1979? I watched a video that Jethro sent me. We did a swop, I sent him Atlanta training, Passages etc and he sent me Satguru has come, The wedding video and the aforementioned tour. I was completely astounded by almost everything M said. Not a mention of meditation, it was all about surrendering the reins of your life, Guru maharaji's grace, about making that effort, and dire warnings if you didn't get it right, that every human being on the planet was designed to surrender to Guru Maharaji, that he was the saviour etc etc. I mean, this was 1979, he was no longer a teenager, he'd been in the west for eight years, married with kids and he was still claiming divine powers. If you don't have this stuff on record, I'll send it to you, it really is incredible. M ought to be made to watch it, also all current premies. There can be no question after watching this about the mahatmas bringing these wild concepts. I plan to offer to lend it to my premie friends for nostalgia's sake. I bet it will blow their minds. They have been so revisioned! that I think it would be shocking even to totally committed, dyed in the wool, career premies to see and hear him the way he really was. All the best, Kelly

Subject: I have the stuff for sure From: Jean-Michel To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:25:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'd appreciate help to sort the documents and find the best excerpts. I have to admit it's become extremely boring for me to read that kind of stuff, even though I appreciate reading some chose excerpts. Then I'll do the layout, that's easy and fast.

Subject: Re: I have the stuff for sure From: Kelly To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 06:41:46 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Hi JM, I hesitate to volunteer, because I have so little time these days. However, I think I know someone who would love to help. E-mail me the documents if you like, at least I could check whether it's all there, and if not I'll pass the videotape on to this person to transcribe. I'll certainly take a look and see what I can do. The video I have contains 2 or 3 complete talks on that tour. And the extraordinary thing is that it's not just one or two choice quotes (i.e. outrageous statements) the whole thing is one seamless outrageous statement. I just switched it on at random and got....... 'Guru Maharaji gives us that mercy and compassion because we are such idiots' ....'.. 'and if we make that little effort, that little step will carry you over that line to where Guru Maharaji is waiting. It does work like that....Guru Maharaji's grace comes and all the experience......etc etc' Jean Michel, I do understand that you must be bored fartless by now!! However, I'm sure if we work together synchronistically as a team with no Lone Rangers or even Tontos!! we can propagate the possibility of knowledge of the TRUTH about maharaji to those who are really thirsty! Let me know Kelly

Subject: Re: Hi JM, a question for you. From: Jean Valjean To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:58:20 (EST) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Hi Kelly, I would LOVE to have copies of these videos, since i was a diehard premie these old days, and it would be kind of a cick to see that again and share it w/my ole friends. Could you please send - i live in France, Europe - it to me for copies and I will sent it back to you, or, easier, make some copies of it and send them to me w/some financial compensation. Friendly yours, Jean (this is an alias)

Subject: To Jean Valjean and other interested parties From: Kelly To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 06:48:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh oh! here I go again, ReVisions productions is back in business! I'll see what I can do. No promises though. Give me a week or two and I'll come back to you. Kelly

Subject: ReVisions - Good one Kelly! LOL [nt] From: Richard To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:58:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Revisionism EPO section? JM? From: Marianne To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 16:38:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Kelly. Yep, I read about all the old stuff that he used to say. Then look at what Glen said in his 1997 EV memo. There ought to be a place on the site where the recent and current revisionist 'spin' about M's and the cult's past can be read alongside the documentation showing what was actually said. This 1979 tour tape transcript comes to mind, as well as the quote JM linked above. Read that stuff and then Glen's 1997 memo and a transcript of the Passages video. It shows how desperately the cultmeisters are trying to re-write history in order to protect the Captain. Marianne

Subject: Re: Revisionism EPO section? JM? From: Kelly To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 06:56:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, This is such a good idea, it must be, because I thought of it as well...great minds eh? While it would be good in print, it would be even better on video. I'm sure the technology is just about ready to make this quite feasible. Side by side clips of him actually speaking. Kelly

Subject: Marianne you're a famous writer I know From: Jean-Michel To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 02:23:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you work on this ? You write the pages, sort the documents, I'll do the layout ......

Subject: He didn't say that ! From: Dermot To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 14:21:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He didn't ! He didn't ! He didn't ! Ask Catweasle, R2, the Andersens,Cerise,...any premie will tell you... HE DIDN'T SAY THAT! God, you ex-premies,you just fill that EPO site with lies, distortions and bitter revisionism.... ....anyway, it's an INDIVIDUAL experience. You guys just didn't get it...no wonder you walked into the darkness.

Subject: I most definitely didn't ! From: Trancas Canyon Baby To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 18:33:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course not ! This is a lie. This is a conspiracy. This is harassment. This is badgering. You guys are driving me up the wall. You are so ungrateful. I gave you a good round for your money, didn't I ? And your money became my money. What are you complaining about, you sorry whiners ? I gave you an opportunity and you blew it. You could have surrendered to me, but nooo ! I'm fed up with the lots of you. Thank Me, I've still got a few bottles of Courvoisier to help me forget what I never said....

Subject: Why are you posting Jim Jones quotes? From: Jim To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:16:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, JM, Jonestown was terrible but this site is for former followers of Maharaji, not Jones. :)

Subject: Revelation From: Joseph To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:51:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My wife is an ardent fan of GMJ. She had spent most of her life praying to whoever to show her why she was here. She couldn't find anything worth her attention except her dogs. Her prayers went unanswered until she heard of GMJ and prayed to him to reveal this Knowledge of God she had been looking for since birth. And within days, she went inside to an infinity of light, love, where she was everything, knew everything. She spent a few hours there. She says that it was an experience beyonf imagination, price and worth waiting Eternity.Since, she's very thankfull to GMJ and goes to see him as often as she can. My problem with that is her belief that if you pray using the sounds G-U-R-U M-A-H-A-R-A-H J-I instead of the sound G-O-D, then it's clear that he was instrumental to the Revelation. When I remind her that he said he never heard what followers say in their heads or bedrooms, she just dismisses it as too complicated. The only thing I've learned from living here is that something happens or doesn't. No rules, techniques, cleansing, evolution, sincerity, humility: all the thousands of adjectives blabbed about by middlemen.I am made what, who, where I am and I have no more say in what I will experience than stopping wrinkles from appearing around my eyes. Revelation is a gift best appreciated when by complete surprise.

Subject: Big Bad Boo Boo From: Naughty To: Joseph Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:36:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does your wife believe in sin? I don't, but if I did, I would say that your wife is quite a sinner. We should honor no craven images before God. The blasphemy of the Guru is to usurp the credit for a person's experience of God. Is there any greater sin?

Subject: In praise of surprise From: Tim G To: Joseph Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:20:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh Joseph Thank you for your fine words. Long Live Surprise....the one thing these middle men dislike, it robes them of their hold. Yes, of course it's vital to leave the window open but the beeze has to come in by itself. I feel sorry for your wife. As for you, it must be difficult living with a Gopi of the Lord. Then there is something to be learnt by that too, if you can hack it, Greetings Tim

Subject: Revelation (reformatted) From: Sister Mary Elephant To: Joseph Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:17:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very nice first post, dear. I especially enjoyed your last line. I'll bet you attended those dreadful public schools, though. My wife is an ardent fan of GMJ. She had spent most of her life praying to whoever to show her why she was here. She couldn't find anything worth her attention except her dogs. Her prayers went unanswered until she heard of GMJ and prayed to him to reveal this Knowledge of God she had been looking for since birth. And within days, she went inside to an infinity of light, love, where she was everything, knew everything. She spent a few hours there. She says that it was an experience beyond imagination, price, and worth waiting Eternity. Since, she's very thankfull to GMJ and goes to see him as often as she can. My problem with that is her belief that if you pray using the sounds G-U-R-U M-A-H-A-R-A-H-J-I instead of the sound G-O-D, then it's clear that he was instrumental to the Revelation. When I remind her that he said he never heard what followers say in their heads or bedrooms, she just dismisses it as too complicated. The only thing I've learned from living here is that something happens or doesn't: no rules, techniques, cleansing, evolution, sincerity, humility: all the thousands of adjectives blabbed about by middlemen. I am made what, who, where I am and I have no more say in what I will experience than stopping wrinkles from appearing around my eyes. Revelation is a gift best appreciated when by complete surprise.

Subject: Miss Elephant From: Tim G To: Sister Mary Elephant Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:21:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome to you too. What's the beef?

Subject: You're a Catholic, aren't you Timothy? From: Sister Mary Elephant, SPI To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:27:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know the proper way to address a bride of Christ, young man. Sister Mary Elephant Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence

Subject: Re: You're a Catholic, aren't you Timothy? From: timmi To: Sister Mary Elephant, SPI Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 19:12:37 (EST) Email Address: timmi56@yahoo.com Message: Actually, it is the ''Sisters of Psychological Warfare'' that I am more familiar with. Any connection? Hello, all. I'm still here, still struggling in the situation and still hopeful. Good luck, Joseph!

Subject: You rang? From: The Sisters To: Sister Mary Elephant, SPI Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 13:03:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Twisted sisters, no we are not. For that divine man Jesus, we are hot, hot, hot! Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence www.thesisters.org/bios/nuns.htm

Subject: I Love Perpetual Indulgence From: Tim G To: Sister Mary Elephant, SPI Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:20:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mea Culpa 10 Hail Marys 3 Ejaculatory Prayers Maybe not, on second thoughts, I'm not even a Christian (Religions being 'the frozen thoughts of man') But a Hearty Top of the Morning to you Sister

Subject: Hi Tim--ot From: Marianne To: Tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:24:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you? How's west Cork, painting, music, etc? I am missing Ireland right now. Love, Marianne

Subject: Hi Marianne From: Kelly To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 15:31:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you? How's the writing? How's Michigan? (Is it Michigan?) I'm missing you right now! And thanks for that sweet post to Marshall down below. I didn't know anything about him being a cult child. That was a nice touch. I hope to talk to you soon. love Kelly

Subject: Re: Hi Marianne - ot From: Marianne To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 16:43:30 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hi Kelly. Yes, it's Michigan and it is snowing outside. So much for springtime. I'm actually seeing lots of old friends, premies and those who have left alike. Writing is going well. Details by email. How's George? Love, Marianne

Subject: Re: Hi Marianne - ot From: Marshall To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:37:39 (EST) Email Address: snorlaxe@msn.com Message: Hi Marianne, Hi Kelly, Too. This looks like a good place to say thanks and hello to you, Marianne, I enjoy what you have to say here, as well. Yes I was a child in the 70's and my parents and consequently my step-parents were/are in GMJ's cult. Even I got the knowledge when I was only 7. Can you imagine? How stupid huh? and get this I got the 'knowledge' from Jagdeo. Luckily I didn't get molested in the process. He doesn't like little boys. Marshall is just a pseudonym I use. The real Marshall is a friend of mine who moved to Chicago. Snowing, huh? Not here in So. Cal, I skate around(skateboard)in a t-shirt and jeans, it's sunny and 70 degrees. Don't tell anyone though, it's crowded enough already(smiley face). Marshall

Subject: Hi Marshall From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 08:51:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the reply. Although I am in Michigan for a bit, I live in San Francisco. I lived in Michigan when I got k. I'd be really interested in hearing more cult kid stories if you want to share them. Have you thought about writing a journey? Marianne

Subject: Hi Marianne. nt From: Tim G To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 12:25:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hearty top of the morning to you Marianne. Sorry to have missed out on your company down here, but you know where we are for the next time. Busy painting and just finished buiding a recording studio in the garden...so never a dull moment. Lots of tech manuals stretch ahead into the distance to try and keep this old brain from atrophy. How is your business? I'm in awe of your work. Love Tim

Subject: In anticipation of Glen's next 'memo' From: PatW To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 21:02:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand that John MG is shortly going to publish another 'Glen memo' which covers his (and my) general take on the Indian Roots at that time (1997). Since it seems there is some eager anticipation for this, I want to make it absolutely clear that what I had learned back then was partially correct but also partly wrong. Glen's comments in this memo reflect this as you will see. ( again I am credited by Glen in my capacity as 'Internet critic' ) I had lent Glen a book that I was reading at the time called 'Radhasoami Reality' which talks about that groups tradition and a guru of theirs called Swarupanand -whom Glen and I both thought was probably Shri Hans' guru. Since then, I learned that this was not the case and, in fact, it was the Swarupanand of the Advait mat tradition who had been Shri Hans' guru. I expect Glen has updated his 'history facts' too by now. Quite a few people have since then been researching this stuff - including Maharaji himself I expect. His former website reflected his findings. (I suspect that Ron Geaves is the most interested premie doing this research in earnest. My guess is that he's more interested in it than Maharaji). Anyway it's relevant to remember, when you read Glen's missive, that the Radhasoami Tradition is only really significant in that: 1) A minor point - Shri Hans is reported by David Lane as having been earlier initiated by one of their Guru's called Sawan Singh. He later must have gone to the Advait Mat group's Sarupanand and become his devotee. 2) The Radhasoami teachings are extremely similar to the Advait Mat group's and later, DLM's teachings. The meditation, vocabulary, belief in Satguru, Service and Satsangs are practically identical in many respects. Shri Hans may well have been very influenced by Radhasoami which was huge at the time. In fact I would say that it is impossible that he would not have been. I have very recently looked a bit closer at the lineage issue, helped enormously by the fact that someone (JM I presume) has put the entire Advait Mat history book online at EPO. This book, called 'Paramhans Advait Mat', documents their lineage in great detail back as far as Dayal (AKA Advaitanand) 1846-1919, and it hints at even more distant, past Gurus. I'm afraid there is a further opportunity to get confused with the Radhasoami group because their lineage also goes back to someone called Dayal!! However this must have been another as the dates and places are different. Anyway my latest conclusions are not far from those of Ron Geaves and Maharaji himself you may be surprised to hear. If the book is correct the lineage that led up to Swarupanand was something like this: ??? (see comment below about Totapuri.) Swami Anandpuri Ji (he initiated Advaitenand in 1884) Dayal (AKA Advaitanand) )1846-1919 (pictured on M's old website and at the Shri Nangli Sahib / Adviat Mat webpage... linked to at EPO somewhere...BTW I am told that 'Nangli Sahib' is a place / village in India). 'It may be mentioned here that His (Advaitanand's) father, Pandit Tulsi Das, had long before His birth, been initiated into spiritual knowledge by a Saint of very high order commonly named as 'Paramhansa Kedarghat Kashiwale', who often used to visit their house. Occasionally the latter also visited Lala Narhar Pershad's house, the latter being a faithful disciple of his own disciple (Pandit Tulsi Das Ji). In 1860 A.D., when Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji was fourteen years old, Lala Narhar Pershad Ji also died. After Lala Ji's death, till Lala Ji's wife was alive, the said Saint continued to visit that house. He (Paramhansa Kedarghat Kashiwale) used to address Shri Swami Advait Anand Ji very affectionately by a pet name 'Hapu Baba'. The latter was formally initiated on an auspicious day into spiritual knowledge by this very Great Soul.' and then... '...There He (Advaitanand) met Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji Maharaj. Spiritual discussion took place between them. Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji of his own accord, told Him several ways of meditation, which He already knew. But according to the instruction of His Master, Shri Paramhansa of Kedar Ghat, He never disclosed those methods of meditation to anybody. When Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji grew 90 years of age, his disciples marked that Shri Swami Ji's affection for Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji (AKA Advaitanand) was great. One of them, Lala Mahabir Prasad Ji, prayed to Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji one day: 'Maharaj ! Who will be Your successor' At that time Shri Swami Ji wrote in Urdu on a paper: 'Accept Paramhansa Ram Yaad.' (AKA Dayal AKA Advaitanand!) At that time Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji was out to some place nearby. When the end of Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji was near, he sent for Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji to Jaipur. After Shri Swami Anandpuri Ji expired, Darogha Ram Chandra and other disciples of the late Shri Swami Ji, put a costly Doshala (fine woollen cloth) round Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji as a mark of succession. But He however, being of independent nature, seldom liked to stick to one place. Therefore, He entrusted the service of Shri Swami Ji's Ashram to a his prominent disciples, and got Himself free. On the insistence of the disciples, He said, 'I have taken Sannyasa to meditate and devote Myself to the service of humanity at large. I do not wish to stick to one place.' Thus He left that place for Dwarka.' finally... 'Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji desired to bid farewell to this world. Having appointed Shri Swami Swarup Anand Ji as His spiritual successor on 3rd May, 1919 A. D.' Swarupanand 1884-1936 (also pictured on M's old website and at the Nangli Sahib / Adviat Mat webpage) 'I (Swarupanand) wish to appoint one Of You as a chief All will have to abide by what he says. Now who should be the chief out of you four?' Pointing towards Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj, the Third Master, all of them requested, -Oh Lord! He will be our chief.' The Second Master (Swarupanand) observed, 'I also wish the same. He shall be your chief. He will sit on the 'Palang' (Guru's cot) and will issue orders. All of you will have to act accordingly.' All bowed to the Master's orders and said, -Oh Lord! We accept Your orders most respectfully.' The Second Master again took the hand of Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj in His own hands in the presence of all of them and observed, -'Very well, He shall be your chief. Do you all agree to it?' All bowed to denote their acceptance. Thus He gave all these orders secretly and none knew anything about it outside. .' Vairaganand 1898-1970ish? (pictured at the Nagli Sahib / Adviat Mat webpage but conspicuously NOT on M's old webpage as the premie version of events is that Shri Hans was Swarupanands successor. NB. Shri Hans had certainly been a follower of Swarupanand. The DLM version of events is: '...so when he (Shri Hans) met Swami Swarupanand, the saint who became his Spiritual Teacher, he devoted himself totally and dived into the infinite ocean of spiritual wisdom. His Guru declared, 'I am in Hans' heart, and he is in mine', and he became the spiritual successor to Swami Swarupanand. In the early days of his mission, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj disseminated Spiritual Knowledge in Sind and Lahore.From 1930 he started teaching in Delhi....' Shri Swami Beant Anand Ji Maharaj Presumably this fellow is still alive. The more I look into all this I see a pattern. Most of these Guru's were initaiated by several Guru's in their lives. Succession was practically 'up for grabs' but the one who ended up with the property and money tended to be more 'recognised'. (academics concur this). Swarupanand may have given Shri Hans the wink although the book says otherwise. There is a report somewhere on EPO that Swarupanand told loads of his mahatmas to carry on his work. Certainly some of them were and are still highly revered -almost like they were 'lesser' masters. (Take a look at the 'Nagli Sahib website to see this) The idea of just one 'kosher' Perfect Master seems increasingly untenable. The perfect example of this is that Sat Pal (Maharaji's brother) is currently also a very popular 'Perfect Master' in India. Yesterday I spoke with an academic just returned from India who said that he was of the opinion that Sat Pal is much more popular than Maharaji there. Also there's this Beant Anand Ji character... Finally, I understand that Ron Geaves broadly thinks that the above lineage is as I have written, but obviously is convinced that Swarupanand gave Shri Hans the official 'nod and wink' as opposed to Vairaganand. Basically you can believe who you like but, as an academic pointed out, academics tend to go on documentation and the ParamHans Advait Mat book is highly detailed and forthcoming compared to the very brief mention of Swarupanand in the DLM book about Shri Hans' life. Incidentally, Ron Geaves apparently goes further into the past than I, for one, can do. He apparently links Swami Anandpuri Ji with a famous guru called Totapuri. (and hence links Maharaji). Totapuri was associated with Ramakrishna, another very popular and revered Indian 'Saint'. By the way, some academics now feel that there is convincing evidence that the later had sex with the former! (You know - all that Tantric stuff...) Lineage is a subject used by people to bolster their position or identity. 'I am a descendent of William the conqueror'. Genealogy shows that we are all much more inter-related than we may think, so to single out any particular 'root' is usually only done to impress either oneself or others. Premies may think that Maharaji is 'spritually descended' from some particularly auspicious and unique line of Perfect Masters. That seems to me to be rather untenable considering the aforementioned huge element of wishful thinking needed all the way down the line. Ex-premies may think that his lineage claims can be disproved. I would rather say that the 'lineage' notion can be seen more clearly for what it is - a mechanism to impress by association or to add weight to the idea of physically passing on the mantle of 'Master' from one person to another. Squabbles about lineage and 'authenticity' are not new to Gurus. Maharaji, Sat Pal, Beant Ji etc. and generations of would-be Masters before them have batted off such criticisms by indicating, when it suits them, that either : A) Their Mastership was NOT so much inherited but they were just born to the condition. B) It's irrelevant. Don't think about it -you'll just get confused. The experience speaks for itself. C) The other claimants to the title are scoundrels, wrong or just plain inferior. (How many times have you heard a Guru say 'Hey, you should go and follow such-and-such, he is a greater Master than I' ?) Maharaji is not alone, however, in being occasionally prone to announcements like : 'This is the traceable history of the Knowledge thus far' My Conclusion Lineage is almost meaningless and irrelevant except that it brings to attention the precious way Guru's and maybe more so - their disciples - value it when it suits them, and it shows how naive and pompous their thinking can be. The value of looking at Lineages in as much accurate historical detail as possible, is that it demystifies the 'spin' that there has always been a clear transmission of power from Guru to Guru. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hence a premie might learn how incredibly 'unlikely' it is that their Master and 'Knowledge' are so unique and also may be able to understand the more prosaic reasons behind their Master's perceived status and the social context that made him what he is. In other words, given the social conditions and influences that Maharaji grew up in, it would be hard to imagine that he could have grown up thinking that he were anything much other than a Perfect Master (without any 'Divine Intervention' needed). I'll comment on Glen's memo when John posts it. I have to confess though, I think that the practice of attempting to debunk Maharaji's lineage is almost as futile as trying to verify it. The value of knowing this stuff is for me, as I said, much more about personally understanding the influences - not trying to prove or disprove what will be forever open to interpretation.

Subject: Re: In anticipation of Glen's next 'memo' From: George Bloggswell To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:05:27 (EST) Email Address: none Message: From 'The Lord As Guru' by Daniel Gold (Hindi Sants in the Northern Tradition. Quote 'Of Sawan Singh's tens of thousands of disciples, two gained substantial followings: Kirpal singh and Charan Singh, who holds the seat at Beas. Both Charan Signgh and Kirpal singh speak of certain internal signs. Chanran Singh says 'The other day i gave initiation to 600 and fifty-three people. All saw Light. And Kirpal Singh was eemphatic that a true master should be able to give his disciples some spiritual experience at the time of initiation. When true saints disappear from a Spiritual mystic school, then it degenerates into a common religion and loses it's deep spirituality and the method of inner realization of Reality and Truth' He also quotes Shamas-i-Tabriz, rumi's master and Rumi himself as saints (sants) as similar Sufi sants or Masters mentioning 'The Perfect Master of the Age.' ......Sounds familiar?

Subject: Re: In anticipation of Glen's next 'memo' From: George Bloggswell To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:05:17 (EST) Email Address: none Message: From 'The Lord As Guru' by Daniel Gold (Hindi Sants in the Northern Tradition. Quote 'Of Sawan Singh's tens of thousands of disciples, two gained substantial followings: Kirpal singh and Charan Singh, who holds the seat at Beas. Both Charan Signgh and Kirpal singh speak of certain internal signs. Chanran Singh says 'The other day i gave initiation to 600 and fifty-three people. All saw Light. And Kirpal Singh was eemphatic that a true master should be able to give his disciples some spiritual experience at the time of initiation. When true saints disappear from a Spiritual mystic school, then it degenerates into a common religion and loses it's deep spirituality and the method of inner realization of Reality and Truth' He also quotes Shamas-i-Tabriz, rumi's master and Rumi himself as saints (sants) as similar Sufi sants or Masters mentioning 'The Perfect Master of the Age.' ......Sounds familiar?

Subject: Great work Anon. From: bill To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 21:35:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: *** More very relevant info... From: PatW To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 05:14:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This time via an email, sent to me in response to my above post, from a friend who wishes to remain anonymous. This is very well worth reading and goes to show how 'The plot thickens' when you look into this stuff. A particularly interesting point this person raises is that Shri Hans started his 'Mission' before his guru S(w)arupanand had died. I had also noticed this from reading the dates of Sarupanand (1884-1936)and the claims by DLM about Shri Hans: so when he met Swami Swarupanand, the saint who became his Spiritual Teacher, he devoted himself totally and dived into the infinite ocean of spiritual wisdom. His Guru declared, 'I am in Hans' heart, and he is in mine', and he became the spiritual successor to Swami Swarupanand. In the early days of his mission, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj disseminated Spiritual Knowledge in Sind and Lahore.From 1930 he started teaching in Delhi.... Here's the email I received this morning ~ (please take the time to read as it is most informative): Hi Patrick, as usual a well executed post on the lineage of 'masters'! My own research has been for the same reasons as yourself and with most of the same conclusions. One of the projects that I would like to fulfil is the tracing of the lineages based on the famous Paul Brunton book ' A search in secret India' which got me into the whole enchilada in the first place. I am hoping to get a commission to write it. The main thing about any Guru Gaddi is DISPUTE!!!! Some points on your post:- I rarely read the Forum although it certainly serves its purpose well and you particularly provide necessary gravitas.Regarding the lineage issue I have an ongoing communication with Nangli Sahib ashram in Delhi and originally alerted Jean-Michel Kahn to this organisation. Recently, after questioning them further and providing relevant URLs (EPO etc.) I was informed ,quite vigorously, of the following;- * Sarupanand did empower all his mahatmas to carry on his work thus breaking with a long held tradition.The same in Islam where Mohammed is revered as the last prophet. * Vairaganand was put in charge of the Anandpuri ashramand then went renegade. He died in hospital after suffering fits,hardly a Mahasamadhi!! * Beantanand took over and died in the same way. (I have the chronolgy somewhere) * Their current Master is Darshan Purnanand (84 years old) who lives near Anandpuri, visited London last year and speaks English. The ashram is in North London.(see google) * My contact tells me that the Nangli Sahib people reject the Advait Mat lineage although he, in true Indian tradition, rates them highly and said that if I wanted updesh they would be just as appropriate as his lot??? (coming from Sarupanand I assume) * Ananandpuri ashram is apparently an incredible achievement- a veritable city. * As for Tota Puri he is also on the Nangli Sahib list, however, in the book Kali's Child by Jeffrey Kripal ( a bit dry and overly scholastic) he is described as a wandering Sadhu, a Tantric Shaivite who most likely shagged Ramakrishna, who was certainly a raging queen. (move over Satya Sai Baba). Personally I do not feel this predilection waters down his teaching, although it is is a bit odd that he was an acknowledged Tantrika whilst Vivekananda was a Vedantin???? * Tota Puri does not fit the bill for any of what followed! ( Just as an aside, if you want to read an amazing book on Tantric Shaivism try 'The Doctrine of Vibration' a weighty tome but pretty cosmic, particularly the principle of Spanda (or 'Holy Name' as we know it). * Hans was initiated by Mahatma Hira Anand and not by Sarupanand and the Nangli Sahib people think that he started his mission before Sarupanand even died. * Whether it is Nangli Sahib, Radha Soami, Advait Mat, EV, Manav Dharam et al the main purpose of inheritance is the same as here - property! (see Rawat vs Rawat) (A nation of estate agents but you can't blame them.) * Feel free to post any or all of the above but please respect my anonymity.

Subject: Re: *** More very relevant info... From: michael donner To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:15:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here is a post i offered below in another thread that continues to seem relevant to me; the lineage issue always brings me to the same question ; how can someone (anyone) claim to be the sole proprieter of the technology called knowledge...the techniques of going inside. this simple technology should not be patented or copyrighted... of course, m and other gurus add the message that the technology does not work without the grace of the master...and grace is given for devotion. so, the lineage question is more like ; to look for the tradition in india (and elsewhere) of the devotional path...bakti yoga as opposed to hatha yoga or ...what is the other...action yoga. m comes from the tradition...no matter how directly..of bakti yoga...devotional yoga. this is exactly the paradox of his attempt to re-create himself into a simple dispenser of the technology called knowledge..or whatever it is called now...the 4 tehcniques or whatever.

Subject: My heart can't handle the excitement From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:42:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, You'd have to pay me to try to make sense of all this. :) You know what we need? A thorough, well-annotated schematic of sorts. Family-tree style. Don't you think?

Subject: Re: *** More very relevant info... From: Livia To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:28:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading through all that extrememly interesting but ultimately fairly confusing stuff, one thing stands out as being of particular significance - the fact that Shri Hans Ji started his mission six years before Swarupanand died. This looks very odd, if indeed, as Maharaji would like to have it, Swarupanand passed his authority down to Shri Hans on his passing. On what authority, then, did Shri Hans start his mission? According Maharaji, there is only one master at any one time who has the authority to dispense the Knowledge. He said as much as recently as last year, at Nottingham. Would any premie like to give their version/explanation of what may have gone on here? Livia

Subject: To LIVIA. From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:30:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, smee. Your post popped an interesting question into my head, re-the dispensing of knowledge. Now when mahatmas or instructors gave K, what is it that made the experience 'come alive'...given that people could have got the tech's fro a book? Is it this invisible transaction that was called grace? or the presence of another human being? or the rarified atmosphere of the K session? I mean , there could be any number of people out there 'giving K' for all I know, but what 'empowers it'? It starts to get a little screwy I know, but SOMETHING sure happens,(see Joseph post above). One things for sure, one of the rarest sights has got to be a room full of gurus........... (((((( ! ))))))))

Subject: Re: *** More very relevant info... From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:15:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know for sure but it was probably simply about revealing K in his capacity as a mahatma. Here's another quote from the book (glossy booklet really) produced for Hans Jayanti 2000. This was produced by English premies, with M's authority, printed in England and sold at Hans Jayanti in Delhi.... 'Soon after, in 1923, Hans Ji received Knowledge, an experience he later described. 'I was given no mantra, but I experienced Knowledge. I experienced the music and light of my heart. My mind was focused within.' In the months that followed, he often disappeared for days at atime to meditate in the high Himalayas beyond his home. Three years later, Sri Sarupanand Ji asked him to begin showing the techniques of Knowledge and, for the next 10 years, Hans Ji travelled throughout what is now Pakistan and north India. He lived simply, often walking long distances to remote, dusty villages, absorbed in serving his master. Sri Sarupanand once said of him: ' I am in Hans's heart and Hans is in my heart.' A new era was about to begin.' Sounds a bit like a fairy tale to me, but if true that he walked to dusty villages, living simply etc. What a far cry from his jet setting luxury addicted son! Hope that clears the mud a little. Kelly

Subject: Very interesting, as usual, Patrick From: Jim To: PatW Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:26:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wouldn't it be fascinating to see an open debate between the various guru's and their proponents on the issue of lineage? Of course, that's as likely as a convocation of petty thieves and pickpockets discussing their trade. I wonder, though, if any of these guys actually believe in their own lineage enough to want to defend their spiritual authority in argument. My guess is that the answer's 'no', that none of them want to shine too strong a light on their foggy origins.

Subject: Well, there's this conference in Salt Lake City.. From: Marianne To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:44:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim. Your suggestion of a debate on the lineage question is very interesting. The closest one might get to it would be at that conference in Salt Lake City in June (?), at which Ron Geaves is scheduled to discuss his book about this issue. One could certainly go there with the intention of debating the lineage question with him. Isn't that what academic debate is about, after all? Salt Lake is not so far from SF or BC.

Subject: To. P . W. From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 09:23:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, any clues where Yogananda and SRF fit in to this? Jus curious, also any pwks crossed over to or from SRF / Kriya yoga?

Subject: Re: To. P . W. From: PW To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:48:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, any clues where Yogananda and SRF fit in to this? Jus curious, also any pwks crossed over to or from SRF / Kriya yoga? Sorry AV, I have not come across a connection with Yogananda but, observing how inter-related all these Indian religious groups are, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if there was a connection somewhere.

Subject: Must be hard living with your own self From: GUAJIRA To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:21:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is up, sorry ass.Took all the extremelly confronting and real stuff and only left in the forum the creep shit you all are up too. By the way have you made a lot of cash from donations to your imparcial talking. Must hurt be in this space of square one.RFefutation in grandour.

Subject: you must mean. it shows From: If that one is you To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 04:17:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: have you ever TRIED living with your own self? By the sound of your post, it must be painful indeed. I know that for you, thinking is extremely difficult, but consider this: you are the only one you know who has been with you from the start and you are the only one who will be there with you at the end. If you can't live with yourself...if you can't stand your own company..then you really are essentially and truly fucked. How are you ever gonna escape being with yourself? There isn't an entity in existence--not even God--, that can grant divorce from that union. You'd have a better chance of getting rid of your shadow.

Subject: above post mine From: janet To: If that one is you Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 04:19:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry- meant to sign it at bottom janet

Subject: Re: Must be hard living with your own self From: Livia To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:35:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Guajira, you sounded quite sweet when you posted last week - out of your head, maybe, but like an endearing innocent. What has happened to you? Oh, I know, you tried posting on Life With Knowledge or whatever it's called, but they deleted you because you were making even less sense than the other premies there, so you came over here instead. I suggest you give up Knowledge, the drugs or whatever it is that's bamboozling your head and get yourself some serious help. It looks as if you need it. Love, Livia

Subject: Bulerias ? From: thejoe To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 02:20:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ole , do you know 'Guajira de Lucia' from Paco de Lucia. Wonderful peace of music! Come on, do some flamenco and forget about the fat arshole.

Subject: Re: Must be hard living with your own self From: Happie Frenchie To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 17:40:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hum... not in the least, but thanks for asking. P.S. There are such things as dictionaries and most word processing programs have a wonderful tool that allows you to check your grammar and spelling. I suggest you invest in one or the other - or maybe both.

Subject: RFefutation in grandour. From: PatD To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 15:01:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love that line. Howd'ye do that?

Subject: Good foot membrane From: Greggg To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:48:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I reply Guajira to your letter of note: we are not with unwit about nothing, you know. Imparcial talking or not, we are the juice of Unferth. Do you know what I am talking with? The square root of one is in grandour of and in itself without doubt which is roaming in my mind because of my falling off the Lotus Knee of Listening to Generic Prozac until my insides question the citation. Am I making mustic moodling or should I stop making sense? Thanks for stopping by and shinning!

Subject: Re: Good Grief!!!!! From: AV To: Greggg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 15:14:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this like, some secret society where everybody got to learn English from braille copies of Umberto Eco with dots randomly filed off?

Subject: :)!!!!! [nt] From: Jim To: Greggg Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:53:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: How do you function? From: Jim To: GUAJIRA Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:26:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this the clearest you can communicate? What hospital are you in? Can we send flowers?

Subject: holy iname From: sparrow bird To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:35:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yahoo? ignorant stepper. Never mind.

Subject: so...so...sad... Guajira? From: marshall To: sparrow bird Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:31:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: i can't even imagine the rotten veggies in this guy's brain. The broken syntax reminds me of**** and his looser buddy's. Hopefully it's just a strange attempt at satire, by an ex.

Subject: And mame the rath outgrabe (nt) From: J McG To: marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 22:57:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: did gyre and gimble in the wabe From: Twas brillig and the slivy toves To: J McG Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:55:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All mimsy were the borogoves and the mome raths outgrabe

Subject: Wasn't Lewis Carroll a paedophile? From: I say, To: Twas brillig and the slivy toves Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:05:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Lewis Carroll not a paedophile. (OT) From: Lit Lover To: I say, Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 09:21:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, he liked little girls, and he liked their naked little bodies. But he didn't diddle them or expose himself. It was his fantasy, perhaps, but the consensus among biographers is that he didn't act on these fantasies.

Subject: botherin you cousin?' [nt] From: ' Is that whats To: Twas brillig and the slivy toves Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:31:06 (EST) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: POST DEITY PURCHASE QUESTIONNAIRE From: Roger eDrek To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 12:53:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: POST DEITY PURCHASE QUESTIONNAIRE ============================================== God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions: 1. How did you find out about your deity? __ Newspaper __ Bible __ Torah __ Koran __ Television __ Book of Mormon __ Divine Inspiration __ Dead Sea Scrolls __ My Mama Done Told' Me __ Near Death Experience __ Near Life Experience __ National Public Radio __ Tabloid __ Burning Shrubbery __ Other (specify): _____________ 2. Which model deity did you acquire? __ Jehovah __ Jesus __ Krishna __ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pack] __ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pack] __ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pack] __ Allah __ Satan __ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature __ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer) __ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin) __ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god 3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes? __ Yes __ No If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply: __ Not eternal __ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos __ Not omniscient __ Not omnipotent __ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations) __ Permits sex outside of marriage __ Prohibits sex outside of marriage __ Makes mistakes __ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people __ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people __ Looks after life other than that on Earth __ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched __ Requires burnt offerings __ Requires virgin sacrifices 4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply. __ Indoctrinated by parents __ Needed a reason to live __ Indoctrinated by society __ Needed focus to despise __ Needed focus to love __ Imaginary friend grew up __ Hate to think for myself __ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church __ Fear of death __ Wanted to piss off parents __ Wanted to please parents __ Needed a day away from school or work __ Desperate need for certainty __ Like organ music __ Need to feel morally superior __ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool __ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell __ Shit was falling out of the sky __ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it 5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply. __ Baal __ The Almighty Dollar __ Left Wing Liberalism __ The Radical Right __ Amon Ra __ Beelzebub __ Bill Gates __ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur __ The Great Spirit __ The Great Pumpkin __ The Sun __ The Moon __ The Force __ Cindy Crawford __ Elvis __ A burning shrub __ Psychiatry __ Other: ________________ > 6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply. __ Tarot __ Lottery __ Astrology __ Television __ Fortune cookies __ Ann Landers __ Psychic Friends Network __ Dianetics __ Palmistry __ Playboy and/or Playgirl __ Self-help books __ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll __ Biorhythms __ Alcohol __ Marijuana __ Bill Clinton __ Tea Leaves __ EST __ Amway __ CompuServe __ Mantras __ Jimmy Swaggert __ Crystals __ Human sacrifice __ Pyramids __ Wandering around a desert __ Insurance policies __ Burning shrubbery __ Barney T. B. P. D. __ Barney Fife __ Other:_____________________ __ None 7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? Circle one below: a. More Divine Intervention b. Less Divine Intervention c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right d. Don't know. e. What's Divine Intervention? 8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following (1 = unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent): a. Disasters: 1 2 3 4 5 flood 1 2 3 4 5 famine 1 2 3 4 5 earthquake 1 2 3 4 5 war & holocausts 1 2 3 4 5 pestilence 1 2 3 4 5 plague 1 2 3 4 5 Spam 1 2 3 4 5 AOL b. Miracles: 1 2 3 4 5 rescues 1 2 3 4 5 spontaneous remissions 1 2 3 4 5 stars hovering over tiny towns & previously unknown hamlets 1 2 3 4 5 crying statues 1 2 3 4 5 water changing to wine 1 2 3 4 5 walking on water 1 2 3 4 5 coincidence of any sort 1 2 3 4 5 getting any sex whatsoever 9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings? __ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my mortal soul __ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamoring for my money 10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary.)

Subject: you finally asked! thankyou! From: janet p schwartz To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 04:52:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: POST DEITY PURCHASE QUESTIONNAIRE ============================================== God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions: 1. How did you find out about your deity? __ Newspaper _2_ Bible __ Torah __ Koran _3_ Television __ Book of Mormon _5_ Divine Inspiration __ Dead Sea Scrolls _1_ My Mama Done Told' Me _4_ Near Death Experience __ Near Life Experience __ National Public Radio __ Tabloid __ Burning Shrubbery __ Other (specify): _____________ 2. Which model deity did you acquire? __ Jehovah _2_ Jesus _5_ Krishna _1_ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pack] _6_ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pack] _7_ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pack] _9_ Allah _8_ Satan _4_ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature __ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer) __ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin) _3_ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god 3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes? __ Yes _x_ No If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply: __ Not eternal __ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos __ Not omniscient __ Not omnipotent _x_ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations) __ Permits sex outside of marriage __ Prohibits sex outside of marriage _x_ Makes mistakes _x_ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people _x_ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people __ Looks after life other than that on Earth _x_ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched __ Requires burnt offerings __ Requires virgin sacrifices 4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply. __ Indoctrinated by parents __ Needed a reason to live __ Indoctrinated by society __ Needed focus to despise __ Needed focus to love _1_ Imaginary friend grew up __ Hate to think for myself __ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church _2_ Fear of death __ Wanted to piss off parents __ Wanted to please parents __ Needed a day away from school or work _3_ Desperate need for certainty __ Like organ music _4_ Need to feel morally superior __ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool _5_ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell __ Shit was falling out of the sky __ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it 5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply. __ Baal _x_ The Almighty Dollar _x_ Left Wing Liberalism __ The Radical Right __ Amon Ra __ Beelzebub _x_ Bill Gates __ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur __ The Great Spirit __ The Great Pumpkin __ The Sun __ The Moon __ The Force __ Cindy Crawford __ Elvis __ A burning Shrub[ hasn't fooled me yet. can't wait till the Shrub is burning instructively before the whole world.] _!@#$%^&*()_ Psychiatry __ Other: _my father, the news media, prempalsinghrawat...& jim morrison_______________ > 6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply. _x_ Tarot __ Lottery _x_ Astrology __ Television __ Fortune cookies __ Ann Landers __ Psychic Friends Network __ Dianetics __ Palmistry __ Playboy and/or Playgirl _x_ Self-help books __ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll _x_ Biorhythms __ Alcohol __ Marijuana __ Bill Clinton __ Tea Leaves __ EST __ Amway __ CompuServe _x_ Mantras __ Jimmy Swaggert _x_ Crystals __ Human sacrifice [if by that, you mean seeing people getting killed for no good reason moving me to act and speak and write and forge vows, then yes] __ Pyramids __ Wandering around a desert [take me to one, and I'll get right on it] __ Insurance policies __ Burning shrubbery __ Barney T. B. P. D. __ Barney Fife _x_ Other:Nature, animals, gardening_____________________ __ None 7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? Circle one below: (a.) More Divine Intervention b. Less Divine Intervention c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right d. Don't know. e. What's Divine Intervention? 8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following (1 = unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent): a. Disasters: (1) 2 3 4 5 flood (1) 2 3 4 5 famine (1) 2 3 4 5 earthquake (1) 2 3 4 5 war & holocausts (1) 2 3 4 5 pestilence 1 2 3 (4) 5 plague 1 2 3 (4) 5 Spam 1 2 3 (4) 5 AOL b. Miracles: 1 2 3 4 (5) rescues 1 2 3 (4) 5 spontaneous remissions 1 (2) 3 4 5 stars hovering over tiny towns & previously unknown hamlets (1) 2 3 4 5 crying statues (1) 2 3 4 5 water changing to wine 1 2 (3) 4 5 walking on water 1 2 3 4 (5) coincidence of any sort 1 2 (3) 4 5 getting any sex whatsoever 9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings? __ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my mortal soul _x_ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamoring for my money _X__ (other) give your angels, guardians and other messengers retraining in better, louder, clearer communications skills. their cryptic prods only annoy me, frustrate me and anger me the last 5 years. i want them to spell it out plain._____________________ 10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary. --- --- --- yes: for starters, hurry up. we're all waiting and you're late showing up. this mideast thing is getting tedious. just smite the assholes, already, would you? you know who they are, WE know who they are, so get ON with it. Same goes for all these religious fakes. just yank em out of the lineup, wouldja? and disable that feature in future models, so it is no longer possible for humans to conceive of such things, either in self or others? -please disable the WAR feature in human nature. -please disable the greed feature in human nature. -please take the excess back from the rich and give it to those without? -please recreate all those worthy enterprises that microsoft destroyed and give ms the conscience never to do that again? -please get down here and start kicking ass? nobody but you could do it, and make the bastards who think they run the world listen and obey.

Subject: Good one Roger From: Richard To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 18:59:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how our ol' buddy TED Farkel found out about god. Maybe drinkin' Busch instead of seeing a burning bush?

Subject: Re: POST DEITY PURCHASE QUESTIONNAIRE From: Crispy To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 16:12:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: POST DEITY PURCHASE QUESTIONNAIRE 1. How did you find out about your deity? _ Other: cult member recruited and indoctrinated me 2. Which model deity did you acquire? — All of the above; he supposedly came with full powers this time ‘round... 3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes? __ No; I'm still waiting for him to grow up... If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. __ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos - needs a world class jet just to get from Point A to Point B __ Not omniscient - he once said his new mantra is 'I don't know' __ Not omnipotent - he can't seem to get rid of EV's debts __ Makes mistakes - all the time; and blames them on his devotees 4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? – young, innocent, naive, gullible and sorely disinformed 5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? __ Other: never like my man satguru's par excellence 6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? __ Other: Steven Hassan, author of Combatting Cult Mind Control Answer to 7 and 8: I wish God would bugger off, remove himself from all equations altogether, and leave us all alone. 9. __ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamoring for my money 10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? - Answer questions honestly instead of dodging them - Get educated on cults, past and current - Read a few self-help books on pathological lying and narcissism - Grow up; temper arrogance with some manners and graciousness

Subject: My God From: Lesley To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:36:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My God is a trinity pack consisting of Jehovah, Jesus and Krishna. Now, the thing is, Mr E Drek, I was brought up to expect plenty of lightning bolts, my God was supposed to be able to smite sinners merely by pointing the finger. When God sent his only Son, and he wore garlands of flowers, whilst shyly capering to the secret strains of Krishna's flute, I thought, 'Great, now we'll see some action'. No lightning bolts, though, they stubbornly seem to happen as a normal part of the weather system. So my initial additional comment or suggestion for improving the quality of God's services is that He publically declares where He is at with this, has He retired his trigger finger, or not. If not, may I suggest that He attaches a label to His lightning bolts, so we can work out what He's mad about, or confesses that his eyesight is failing and he can't hit his targets any more. Maybe there's too much burning shrubbery.....C'mon God, fess up, it's the eyesight isn't it?

Subject: and why's he always fuckin' w/me [nt] From: Trailer Park Tommy To: Lesley Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 07:11:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: wants the Testimonials for Amaroo From: The Maharaji of Malibu To: All Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:19:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can just see him making brief mention of the charges against him and then moving to the testimonials. Following each one with 'yes, Maharaji is a con man' or 'no, K doesn't work'..the cult members will be rolling and a howling...meanwhile he'll be using there own testimonials against them, leaving most of them secretly wondering why this great experience isn't happening for them the few that do believe it is true, well, just get a couple or three pints of truth juice in them and then the story will change

Subject: Re: wants the Testimonials for Amaroo From: 210 To: The Maharaji of Malibu Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:57:45 (EST) Email Address: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com Message: One has to wonder what manner of ''Master'' so cripples his followers that they are dependent on daily, or even more frequent, 'fixes' of seeing and/or hearing him. I should have thought that a true teacher or master would desire freedom for his students. The ''master'' in question here, on the contrary, binds and ties his followers to him, so they have neither freedom or ability to move hand or foot. I suppose that if you tell people often enough that their mind is their enemy and that only you can save them from that, such things are bound to happen. How disgusting and revolting.

Subject: I can see clearly now! From: Anandaji To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 23:23:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear friends --- I must apologize for being a bit of a stranger, but I am busy reclaiming my life. The new journey is going super. I want to share it with you. I exed last December after stumbling upon EPO. Oh, most fortunate 'misfortune'! After spending copious hours reading through the materials, I came to see that I was 57, underemployed and broke, and in denial about depression, largely because of you-know-what. My most urgent goal was to get my financial house in order. So I began reviving a company I began in 1985, but has been mostly moth-balled for years. Well, after two months of intense work, such as I have never before known, I have moved mountains, rivived the company, and, sitting alongside me is a $5,235 contract!! Also, I used to be a radio announcer and have a nice voice. But I dropped that talent because working in radio meant I wouldn't be free to go to festivals. So I did the only intelligent thing I could do: I became taxi driver, which I still am! No vacation, no retirement, no insurance. Who needs a career (maya). Well, I was sharing my cult escape experience with a men's support group I attend in which I talked about the promising life I realized I had abandoned years ago, including being an excellent radio announcer. One of the men said, 'hey, I need a voice for a sales presentation.' So I spent a day in a recording studio. The engineer says, 'Hey! You have a great voice and we're always looking for voices around here.' That is leading to more abundance. My church heard about this and asked if I would narrate for their Easter program. I did and received lots of affirmations for my 'gift.' I used to sing. I dusted off my guitar, put new strings on it, and I am singing again. In two weeks I am performing at my church. I will sing the theme song from the movie 'Brother Son, Sister Moon.' I want to cut a CD for my parents who are aging. I recorded a tape for them years ago and it meant a lot to them. I used to write poetry. Hardly ever wrote again after receiving knowledge in 1973. Coincidence? Don't think so. I've read similar accounts in Journeys. People who were artists and dropped their talents to serve the Lard. I have a beautiful, wonderful wife and six sons, now six grand children. The last was born yesterday, a 2 pound 13 ounce preemie (That's NOT premie!). Isabelle Anna is doing fine despite her miniature size. God grant me the strength to endure my blessings! Meanwhile, I am feeling so much happier; a little depression here and there, but I feel well within the normal range for living in a world with a lot of problems. My spirit is truly awakening. I can see clearly now! The rain is gone. I have been checking into this forum frequently, but have felt too busy getting life in order to really read all of the messages and to give back. But the goal is to become increasingly liberated from economic toil to enable me to give back to those, like you, who have been so kind and generous to newbies like myself. Thanks!! And finally, here's a poem I wrote in 1973, the same year I received knowledge. Weekend in the Park Rolling carpets of soft green grass Hide the netherworld's enigma. A thousand pair of neurotic feet Move helter-skelter Like parakeets freed To flutter about the living room. Atrophied wings bearing atrophied minds, Inspired by unclear longings From within. When I was a child, we had a green parakeet. We mostly kept it in the cage, of course. But there were times we let it out to flutter around. I always felt so sorry for it being in the cage, but even when it was freed, it was only free in the living room. Free, but not really free. I wondered how much of its true nature it was aware of. Today I feel like I am coming in touch with those unclear longings. I have been freed from both the cage and the living room. When I wrote the poem, I was directing it at people I saw flooding into parks on week-ends, but caged in their jobs on weekdays, when the park was empty. I mocked their atrophy. Now I realize that I was among them...until last December. Love to you all, my brothers and sisters. Anandaji

Subject: Brother Sun, Sister Moon From: Anandaji To: Anandaji Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 00:14:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you all (yes, even you R2!) for your replies to my journey update. I didn't realize that the song 'Brother Sun, Sister Moon,' had some premie connection. I loved the movie and the song. It was the story of St. Francis of Asissi. He broke the ranks of convention, eschewing his fathers' heartless and exploitive capitalism. He empathized with his exploited workers. He went off to war, as was required for all 'real' men of the day, but it sickened him. He tossed away the expensive clothing made by his father; became an asthetic. He loved critters. Using gentleness and truth, he confronted the pope. All things I would do if I wasn't such a coward. I chose the song to sing to the church because: 1. I loved the character of St. Francis for the reasons listed above. 2. I like the melody and the words (written below). Perhaps if one were to see the song as dedicated to M, I could understand the objection. But I am certainly not singing it to him, but to the awakening he hijacked. Read the words. One can see it as applying to God, universal love, awakening, whatever. In the heart of the beholder. 3. I am singing it to that universal love which manifests between people who connect in a place of truth and humility. I feel that a lot on this forum because of the REAL satsang that happens here. Once I felt it in the premie community, but no longer. In the early days there was a lot of love and sense of connectedness and community, but it was more from what we all brought to the table (our idealism and innocence). We only thought M was the panacea, but he was the placebo. 4. I am also dedicating the song to the church minister and his wife who are retiring. I wish you could all meet this tremendous couple. I know you would all love them as much as I do, especially those of you who, like me, have had their fill of churchianity. His take on Jesus was that he was a radical egalitarian and a sapiential eschatologist. Think about it. I love this subject, BTW. 5. I like Brother Sun, Sister Moon because it brings the forces of nature into the mix. M discounted nature as maya. I am ingesting nature every day more and more now, trying to make up for lost time. (I am guessing that this statement will make R2 barf). The words to the song by Donovan: Brother Sun and Sister Moon I seldom see you, Seldom hear your tune, Preoccupied with selfish misery. Brother Wind and Sister Air Open my eyes To visions pure and fair, That I may see the glory around me. I am God's creature Of Him I am part. I feel His love Awakening my heart. Brother Sun and Sister Moon I now do see you, I can hear your tune. So much in love with all that I survey. I am God's creature Of Him I am part. I feel His love Awakening my heart. Brother Sun and Sister Moon I now do see you, I can hear your tune, So much in love with all that I survey. So much in love with all that I survey. My take is that I am belatedly going through this awakening. It is a journey which was hijacked and private-labeled by M and other con persons of his ilk, including, I might add, the church itself. But there is a journey. We can fall in love and see the glory, but we don't need no sleazy huckster to find it. Jai Sat Chit Anandaji! Truth is the Consciousness of Bliss! It's true!

Subject: It's like reverse satsang. From: WGB To: Anandaji Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:49:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Instead of having the omens and portents of 'His Grace' for indulging in that wild goose chase, you discover your own talents and strengths. And all that's required is to fly away. **Samuel Wilbur Condon (Wild Goose Bill)

Subject: Beautiful and heartfelt! From: Richard To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 23:07:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really enjoyed reading your story, Anandaji. You really can turn a nice phrase and I bet I would love sitting in church listening to you play and sing. Good to hear more about you.

Subject: Re: I can see clearly now! From: Dep =) To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 21:50:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anandaji, Leave it to me to be the devil's advocate here, but I have two premie friends who each make over $130,000 a year. Six sons and six grandchildren! My god. You have a wealth most people could never have. I wish you well in your new life. =)

Subject: You certainly can From: Tim G To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 20:38:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great to hear from you Anandaji. So good to hear of such a positive change in your life and sad to think of how much Mr Rawat has stultified people's lives. I remember that feeling of guilt that accompanied any 'solo runs' outside of the so-called world of knowledge. Really it was the opposite of knowledge. Knowledge and wisdom start with being able to observe ourselves and others, unfettered by theories and practices that demand loyalty and obedience. It makes me sick to think of the damage that Mr Rawat has inflicted and yet we were the ones that fell for it and the buck stops right here. Anyway, the best of luck in your new business, your music and your new found openess to what is actually going on. Congrats on your new grandchild, love Tim

Subject: Infectious enthusiasm From: Jim To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:42:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Anandaji. Sounds like you've got a full and wonderful life, goals within your reach and the monkey off your back. Good one.

Subject: My Little Budgie From: Gregg To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:12:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for weighing in with your experience, Ananandaji. Count me as one of the many premies/ex-premies (and, surely, zealots of many other stripes as well, from Moonies to the Taliban) who believed the morons who told us about 'Maya' or 'the world' and thus stopped making music and writing poetry. Everything but worshipping the Lord and meditating was useless or worse, according to this (mostly unspoken) belief. What a load of crap. This kind of fanaticism is a very sorry business. I had a parakeet years ago, a beautiful little thing I called Cha-Cha. I liked making bird noises to him, which would get him all excited. He also loved to sing along to Beethoven and Coltrane. He didn't care much for rock music. I let him out of the cage a few times, but it didn't turn out too well. He'd do things like fly into the curtains and fall to the floor. He was just too used to the cage; the world outside his little prison was huge and scary. I know some premies feel the same way: the world would be a big and scary place without their belief in their chubby little savior. In reality, though, premies who become ex-premies invariably feel much as you do, Anandaji - liberated and grateful. Ironic, isn't it, that those two things, liberation and gratitude, perpetually trotted out by cultists as rewards for membership, are the hallmarks of leaving the throngs of the true believers!

Subject: With your post here From: Carl To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:10:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are giving back plenty, more than you may know. Your wrenching and belated self-assessment rings so true for me and, I am sure, for many many others who post and monitor here. Somehow or other we were convinced that self-expression and independence of thought and action were tantamount to disloyalty to GOD, who, in the form of the Lord M, apparently required slavish obedience to toil, drudgery and wasteful lunatic ventures that only enriched him beyond calculation. This is one of the many sad undersides to M's cult. But your post of recovery and, yes, 'self-realization', has brought a deep smile from me. I rejoice with you. So glad you shared your candid thoughts. Be well and prosper always! Carl

Subject: Re: With your post here From: R2 To: Carl Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:01:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With all due respect, this kind of thinking is lunacy. IMO there was definitely a somewhat unbalanced priority given to the practice of Knowledge during the ‘70s and early ‘80s. If you like, the ashram was the symbol of this mentality. But hey guys, the ashrams closed. Maharaji made changes. And many people, changed with the times without chucking the baby with the bath water. That said, if you as an individual feel the only way to reclaim you life from your ‘70s mentality is to chuck Knowledge, that’s cool. But please don’t think that that is the only way. There are many people who continue to enjoy Knowledge as a priority in their life, who pursue rewarding and lucrative careers, family life, and hobbies. Upon weighing Knowledge’s value to you personally compared to these other things, you decide it doesn’t give you enough, now that’s another thing. And that done, if the only thing that’s been keeping you on board is guilt, well that needs to be recognized.

Subject: Life with Knowledge From: D2 To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 17:42:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2....I'm sure the moniker 'Knowledge Lite' must be a little irksome to you....I mean, what business do ex-premies have on one hand criticizing the Guru and his Knowledge, and on the other hand bemoaning the fact that it's not like it was in the good old days, when dewey-eyed arti-tray-swinging gopis really meant it....it's kinda like a restaurant complaining about the lousy food and then saying, 'and the portions were way too small!' But it does seem a little strange to us. I mean, Knowledge (according to the old Guru Maharaj Ji) was quite a big deal, not just a little relaxing thing you do instead of firing up a bowl of locoweed. Anyway, just as you believe it's fine for Anandaji to chuck it all, I believe it's fine for you to keep on meditating under a blanket (do you guys still do that?)...but you gotta admit your guru has a rather dubious track record. All right, i guess you don't gotta admit it, but really now...is this a guy who really seems to know anything about meditation? If he, in fact, has spent any time actually practicing what he preaches, he sure hides it well. What you experience in meditation has more to do with you and your belief in the Guru than it does with His Divine Influence on your life.

Subject: Re: Life with Knowledge From: R2 To: D2 Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 20:40:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .…it's kinda like a restaurant complaining about the lousy food and then saying, 'and the portions were way too small!' Yes, it is interesting how he’s being damned on both counts by ex-premies. Do you ever question your level of fairness? But it does seem a little strange to us. I mean, Knowledge (according to the old Guru Maharaj Ji) was quite a big deal, not just a little relaxing thing you do instead of firing up a bowl of locoweed. Still is a big deal. To me it’s definitely more than what you describe. To keep it that way I’ve had to do is fight hard against the “now I know what it’s all about” syndrome. What you experience in meditation has more to do with you and your belief in the Guru than it does with His Divine Influence on your life. Don’t know you can say what it is I experience in meditation D2. You CAN comment on what you experienced, and if you want to explain that away as being a product of belief, no worries. I’ll tell you that what I experience in meditation is sublime, profound, insightful, enriching, and unquestionably rooted in what is real. I could attempt to call it divine but I would be editorializing if I did. It is what it is. And it was brought to me and continues to be taught to me by Maharaji. If I WERE to say my experience is divine, then it would follow that because he shows it to me, his influence is divine. But I won’t. That answers your question Jim?

Subject: Not unquestionable From: JHB To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 15:25:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, You said:- I’ll tell you that what I experience in meditation is sublime, profound, insightful, enriching, and unquestionably rooted in what is real. I could attempt to call it divine but I would be editorializing if I did. It is what it is. And it was brought to me and continues to be taught to me by Maharaji. If I WERE to say my experience is divine, then it would follow that because he shows it to me, his influence is divine. But I won’t. Richard, It can and must be questioned. As I have asked many times here, what evidence do you have, apart from the fact that the experience feels profound, and feels like it's grounded in reality, that it actually is? The brain is an awesome thing. It holds all the concepts and feelings about how reality, infinity, timelessness, and divinity should feel. So when we have the experiences, we recognise them, because they match precisely how we subconsciosly expected them to feel. As I've said before, I'm open on this. Give me some evidence that we really are tapping into something else other than our own physical bodies, and we can move this debate on. But all we appear to have at the moment is a fantastic high, induced by sense deprivation and faith. John.

Subject: Unquestionable! [nt] From: R2 To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:07:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: what do you mean 'Taught' by M From: tim G To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 05:27:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My Dear Fellow...'Taught to me by Maharaji' Let's be factual. How did he teach you. Personally? Do you mean to say that the teaching is in his discourses that are an odd mixture of Hindu concepts sanitised for the West/ New age cliches. Really he is , if anything, 'The master of the obvious'. Or do you feel he teaches you in some Divine way when you sit and practice some well worn meditation techniques. If the latter you are seriously caught up in a belief system, which you rightly denigrate. Look, we've been there, done that. Pulling some mystical nonesense doesn't wash on this Forum as we have all seen through the smoke and mirrors and some of us even feel slightly embarrased about it. I say drop the whole thing and see what it is like to face life as it is . No Cocoon is actually very freeing if you dare go for the ride!

Subject: Re: what do you mean 'Taught' by M From: R2 To: tim G Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 18:58:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My Dear Fellow...'Taught to me by Maharaji' Let's be factual. How did he teach you. Personally? My dear fellow, his instructor taught me the techniques, although he has taught many the techniques himself. Since learning how to go inside, every time I have listened to him he has instructed me on the subtleties of the practice of Knowledge in a little finer detail. Hence the importance of fighting the “now I know what it’s all about” syndrome. Not to mention that sometimes it’s enough just to be reminded an inner realm still exists, which he does every time I listen.... with an open attitude that is. Do you mean to say that the teaching is in his discourses that are an odd mixture of Hindu concepts sanitised for the West/ New age cliches. Really he is , if anything, 'The master of the obvious'. He talks about life and existence, which is neither a Hindu, Western or sanitized concept. As for being obvious, of course what he talks about is obvious. The sky being blue is obvious too but when was the last time you stopped and really appreciated the magnitude of it’s beauty? BTW, when was the last time you listened to him…. I mean with an open attitude. You seem a little out of touch. Or do you feel he teaches you in some Divine way when you sit and practice some well worn meditation techniques. If the latter you are seriously caught up in a belief system, which you rightly denigrate. No. Look, we've been there, done that. Pulling some mystical nonesense doesn't wash on this Forum as we have all seen through the smoke and mirrors and some of us even feel slightly embarrased about it. Methinks you are so prone to premies trying to mystify you with bullshit, that’s what you hear even when it’s not there. Maybe that's because that is 'where you were and what you did' as a premie, and therefore assume we all are just like you were. That would be consistent with the mindset of most ex-premies. Rather a supercilious and invalid assumption if you ask me. No my dear fellow, there is nothing mystical about the way I view Maharaji. He has shown me something that I didn’t know that is extremely valuable to me. He has continued to take responsibility for helping me to undertsand what it was he showed me, which I value dearly. Who he is and what relationship he has to God stopped mattering to me long ago. I say drop the whole thing and see what it is like to face life as it is . No Cocoon is actually very freeing if you dare go for the ride! Oh come on my dear fellow. I was on more rides than you can imagine before I received Knowledge. Facing life as it is..... that’s funny. Facing life as it is a phenomenon more rare than the existence of life in the universe. Hey that's interesting, we don't know the answer to either question now do we.

Subject: appreciating beauty From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 07:56:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The sky being blue is obvious too but when was the last time you stopped and really appreciated the magnitude of its beauty? I talked about this before, but I'll mention it again. Recently, I spent some time with a devout premie. We travelled through some stunning countryside and the rest of us (non-premies and me) were quite overwhelmed by the beauty around us. The premie, however, seemed oblivious to it and kept talking about how weird the world is. I tried to draw his attention to the beauty several times, but he didn't respond. In a strange and disconcerting way, he didn't seem to be able to. Now, I'm not suggesting that this type of response is common to all premies, of course it isn't. But I do think it's a tendency within a premie mindset, to devalue 'the world' as something of intrinsically less value than 'Maharaji's world', whatever that is supposed to be. It's actually a sort of 'dualism', the very dualism that was originally supposed to disappear when one experienced the Knowledge. In that context, I thought it was ironic when you mentioned appreciating the magnitude of the sky's beauty. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: appreciating beauty From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 13:05:10 (EST) Email Address: none Message: I agree with you Livia, I've experienced similar situations to the one you describe. In particular I've seen an uncaring mean attitude towards dogs and even(gasp!) adorable puppies. Anyone who knows anything knows that dogs are special creatures. Dualism is a nice way to put it. I was thinking more like schizo, schism, whatever. Premies and especially gmj want to 'have their cake and eat it too', typical greedy hoarder syndrome. Oh well. I've also noticed sociopathic tendencies. There are a ton of neurosis' that go along with adopting super-toxic belief systems, I would imagine.

Subject: That's absurd From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 20:58:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .…it's kinda like a restaurant complaining about the lousy food and then saying, 'and the portions were way too small!' Yes, it is interesting how he’s being damned on both counts by ex-premies. Do you ever question your level of fairness? But it does seem a little strange to us. I mean, Knowledge (according to the old Guru Maharaj Ji) was quite a big deal, not just a little relaxing thing you do instead of firing up a bowl of locoweed. Still is a big deal. To me it’s definitely more than what you describe. To keep it that way I’ve had to do is fight hard against the “now I know what it’s all about” syndrome. What you experience in meditation has more to do with you and your belief in the Guru than it does with His Divine Influence on your life. Don’t know you can say what it is I experience in meditation D2. You CAN comment on what you experienced, and if you want to explain that away as being a product of belief, no worries. I’ll tell you that what I experience in meditation is sublime, profound, insightful, enriching, and unquestionably rooted in what is real. I could attempt to call it divine but I would be editorializing if I did. It is what it is. And it was brought to me and continues to be taught to me by Maharaji. If I WERE to say my experience is divine, then it would follow that because he shows it to me, his influence is divine. But I won’t. That answers your question Jim? --- Don’t know you can say what it is I experience in meditation D2. You CAN comment on what you experienced, and if you want to explain that away as being a product of belief, no worries. One of the biggest jokes in all this is when you cult members try to hide behind the notion of 'individual' experience. To be clear, Maharaji, his father before him, his entire guru tradition, is premised on the exact opposite assumption, that there is something profoundly universal about the so-called Knowledge experience. Thus, Maharaji audaciously pronounces that, whether you know it or not, there's 'something' inside of you that he can show you. His whole pitch is all about how everyone has it, whether we know it or not. We can deny it, run from it, worship it, build religions around it, blah, blah, blah, but it's there. In everyone. What you're doing is playing the same shell game the cult and its leader started a long time ago, though. Maharaji used to lecture us about how important it was that we each had our own individual experiences of Knowledge. You know the drill. But the point was that it wasn't enough to hear him or his mahatmas, for example, talk about the light brighter than 10,000 suns. We all had to experience it for ourselves. Since then, though, Maharaji's played on the ambiguity of the word 'individual', setting up jokers like you to now say that there's no reason to assume there's anything universal in the experience. This is a complete inversion / perversion of the basic teachings. And why did Maharaji turn it all upside down? Simple. No one was accomplishing anything even close to what he originally promised. Not a single premie ever 'realized God' (which isn't surprising as that was a mythical and impossible goal to begin with). So Maharaji decided a long time ago it'd be safest to stop his cult members from comparing notes. Again, a major re-write of the supposedly ageless program in which people naturally described their experiences along the path so as to inspire others to take the same steps. At one point, Maharaji used to tell us -- again, like his father did -- that that was the sole purpose of our being able to speak. Now, he's muzzled you and you don't even notice. Well, R2, the good news is that any reasonable people considering this cult do notice such things. By the way, what did you think of Glen Whittaker's damage control strategy? :)

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** From: Steve Quint To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 00:35:25 (EST) Email Address: the_avenger55@hotmail.com Message: Nice post, Jim. Right on. Steve

Subject: Hey, Steve -- how's it? From: Jim To: Steve Quint Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 00:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How're you doing? Beautiful weather today, wasn't it? I only got out to get to a doctor but it sure is spring now. Vancouver must have been great too. Steve, could you email me when you get a chance? If I've got your email address, I can't recognize it. I want to ask you something. Thanks, jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Re: That's absurd From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 19:59:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since then, though, Maharaji's played on the ambiguity of the word 'individual', setting up jokers like you to now say that there's no reason to assume there's anything universal in the experience. This is a complete inversion / perversion of the basic teachings. Where do you get that from? That’s not what I said at all. What I experience is personal, yes. But the breadth of that experience is obvious through its simplicity, to me. That said, for me say to you it is universal would be to editorialize, opening it up to a stupid “prove it to me’ argument, which I have no inclination having with you. And no Jim I’m not “joking”. And why did Maharaji turn it all upside down? Simple. No one was accomplishing anything even close to what he originally promised. Not a single premie ever 'realized God' (which isn't surprising as that was a mythical and impossible goal to begin with). How the fuck would you know? Really! Your display of arrogance exposes how flakey a position you occupy. You're a flake Jim. So Maharaji decided a long time ago it'd be safest to stop his cult members from comparing notes. Again, a major re-write of the supposedly ageless program in which people naturally described their experiences along the path so as to inspire others to take the same steps. At one point, Maharaji used to tell us -- again, like his father did -- that that was the sole purpose of our being able to speak. Now, he's muzzled you and you don't even notice. He has said all along to not compare your experience with other premies. Did you forget that bit Jim in your rewrite of history? Well, R2, the good news is that any reasonable people considering this cult do notice such things. Reasonable people? Hmmmm….. you mean like you? Now that’s funny. By the way, what did you think of Glen Whittaker's damage control strategy? To call it damage control would imply there has been damage. You give yourselves far too much credit my friend.

Subject: To R2: damage control From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 08:14:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said, R2: To call it damage control would imply there has been damage. You give yourselves far too much credit my friend. Glen said, in the report you are referring to: Shortly after he closed the ashrams, leaving an enormous sense of let-down. What is asked for on the internet is for Maharaji to acknowledge what happened, and either explain it or apolgise for it. and... Both these concerns will need addressing at some point, one feels, they are so strongly expressed and felt, they will not go away. If they, and particularly the second, are ignored, they will continue to fester as an ever-present source of potential damage to M's present work. Tell us why this isn't damage control. With regards, Livia

Subject: Look what M's done to you! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 20:19:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You remind me of a dog wearing a hi-tech collar that emits a tiny electric shock if you stray beyond the property line. You can't 'editorialize', you can't compare ... you're in a cult, R2! Cut off from the outside world. Oh sure, you can keep your cult membership secret and maybe function in a half-assed way in the world at large -- just another constraint, added to the many -- but when you actually say what you think here, you sound crazy. Crazy and incredibly repressed. You laugh at my reference to 'reasonable people' but, yes, there's a world full out there who are reasonable enough to see through your stupid cult leader. Too bad you're cut off as you are. But as for your objection to my characterizing Glen Whitaker's letter as attempted damage control, all I can say is that Glen sure saw there was 'damage' to worry about. I must say I was going to go through his letter to find the various places he says so but they're far too plentiful. The entire document is nothing but a blatant, express concession that there is indeed damage, lots of it, and a few suggestions on how to minimize same. You would have to be completely mad to not see that. I take this as just one more bit of proof, not that any more's needed, of your insincerity.

Subject: I'm proud of what he's done for me From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:26:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You remind me of a dog wearing a hi-tech collar that emits a tiny electric shock if you stray beyond the property line. You can't 'editorialize', you can't compare ... you're in a cult, R2! Cut off from the outside world. Oh sure, you can keep your cult membership secret and maybe function in a half-assed way in the world at large -- just another constraint, added to the many -- but when you actually say what you think here, you sound crazy. Crazy and incredibly repressed. You laugh at my reference to 'reasonable people' but, yes, there's a world full out there who are reasonable enough to see through your stupid cult leader. Too bad you're cut off as you are. Jim, anything coming from you -- I mean opinion, comment, philosophy, anything -- has zero relevance to any ”reasonable” person who has followed your forum editorials. You have shown yourself to be irrational in your attacks on anybody and everybody. You have demonstrated zero tolerance and open-mindedness to the ideas of others. You exercise your condescension and one-upmanship with a detachment not unlike an F16 pilot dropping his “smart bomb” on an Afgan hospital that he thinks is a Taliban command and control center. You disrespect a basic tenet of inter-personal trust by making public private correspondence without the author’s consent. You are mean spirited, cocky, childish, and think the tiny bubble in which you live somehow has some importance to the universe. You cannot and should not hold yourself up as an example of a reasonable person because you tarnish the reputation of those of us who are reasonable. No my friend your opinion of me is about as relevant to me as your stupid ideas about the universe. But as for your objection to my characterizing Glen Whitaker's letter as attempted damage control, all I can say is that Glen sure saw there was 'damage' to worry about. I must say I was going to go through his letter to find the various places he says so but they're far too plentiful. The entire document is nothing but a blatant, express concession that there is indeed damage, lots of it, and a few suggestions on how to minimize same. You would have to be completely mad to not see that. I take this as just one more bit of proof, not that any more's needed, of your insincerity. Glen is entitled to an opinion about how to deal with external criticism of Maharaji. And you are entitled to take from it what you want. Ex-premies of course would want to see that their efforts are having a big effect, and will no doubt see it even where it doesn’t exist. I will agree that disillusioned premies are reading this stuff and they ARE being affected. My opinion is so-what. It is nothing new that people get confused by the confusion of others. Maharaji will continue doing what he does in spite of anything you, Glen, Dettmers, or anybody else says. Why? Because he has something important to offer to people. That has never changed.

Subject: What? Made you a bald-faced liar? From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 15:02:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, You're busted my friend. When I asked you: By the way, what did you think of Glen Whittaker's damage control strategy? you answered as if to pretend you didn't know what I was talking about: To call it damage control would imply there has been damage. You give yourselves far too much credit my friend. Then, when pressed, you admit: I will agree that disillusioned premies are reading this stuff and they ARE being affected. You knew of that damage all along. What does this show? That you're playing games exactly the way Mel Bourne did, Mel who, like I say, has since confessed that he was just testing the limits of whatever 'intellectual distortions' (i.e. lies) he could throw out to defend his cult leader. You're just playing games here and one would be stupid to take you seriously. Right, TURNER? :)

Subject: Re: What? Made you a bald-faced liar? From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:19:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, look who’s playing games. You’re arguments are as ridiculous as you have become. Why don’t you stop pretending you’re on a big case and play it straight for a change. I don’t consider a few disillusioned premies damage. I don’t consider you a threat. And I don’t see the ex-premies redefining the rules of the heart such that their antics will prevent the thirsty from finding real water. To sum it up Jim, you are an irrelevant flake. Turner???

Subject: How funny! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 20:03:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I called you Turner because PatC, a real person who is not in a cult and whom I trust far more than you, tells me that you used to post under that name. In fact, all one has to do is read through just a couple of Turner's They're-coming-to-take-me-away-ha-ha-crazy posts to see that you and he are one and the same. Of course you are. In fact, you, just like Turner, express an amazingly callous disdain for premies that certainly flies in the face of Maharaji's espoused concern. If a few 'disillusioned premies' aren't damage for Maharaji, then what would be? Losing you? Losing a little money? What? The fact is, like I said before, you and your arguments are as phony as your name. You're probably just giggling at this, knowing how well I've got your number. Anyway, please carry on. There's nothing like a little Turner/R2 to remind everyone how bad we could have become were it not not for the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. Forum 5 archives with Turner posts www.geocities.com/forumarchives12/D/f.htm#P_0UYB

Subject: Yes, isn't it! From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 20:30:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're full of crap Jim and you know it. Sorry, but that wasn't me. You're still a flaming flake in my books no matter how hard you try and deflect the discussion away from your own failings. Cheers.

Subject: You are HISTORY, pal From: gerry To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 21:38:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're still a flaming flake in my books no matter how hard you try and deflect the discussion away from your own failings. This by itself proves you are a troll. The discussion is not on Jim's 'failings' but rather, the Maharaji cult, and how it affected our lives. It is you who is attempting to deflect the discussion, and any further post by you will be deleted. Bye now.

Subject: You're forgetting something, R2 / Turner From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 20:49:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm a real person. You're not. You're an assumed identity who'll one day pop in again as yet another assumed identity. Once again, you'll make ridiculous efforts to defend Maharaji and once again you'll get the reception you deserve. Cheers, indeed!

Subject: Re: You're forgetting something, R2 / Turner From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 03:50:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Specifically he's forgetting that I can see exactly where he is posting from - his workplace in....well suffice it to say that it is the exact same place as Turner used to post from on FV. Of course there may be 12 or is that 6 premies all using the same office computer. :C) How do you guys have the patience to talk to ghosts?

Subject: Re: I'm proud of what he's done to me From: Marshall To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 13:11:34 (EST) Email Address: none Message: You are so off base in what you say about Jim that it's not even worth examining closely. You are being totally ridiculous R2, the only reason you can't see this is because of 'cult blinders'. Lot's of people agree with what Jim says, including, me. The fact that he has pushed your buttons or whatever show that he is on to something, why can't you just 'let it go' R2, are you 'in your mind'.

Subject: Re: I'm proud of what he's done to me From: R2 To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:34:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are so off base in what you say about Jim that it's not even worth examining closely. Yeah right. And he's wrong about me too. Difference is I'd be willing to admit it. And Marshall, lose this anti-cult-speak shit for God's sake. 'Cult blinders'???... 'pushed my buttons'?? Geez, you look like some kind of neo-McCarthyist commie-hunter.

Subject: Re: That's absurd From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 18:56:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My Dear Fellow...'Taught to me by Maharaji' Let's be factual. How did he teach you. Personally? My dear fellow, his instructor taught me the techniques, although he has taught many the techniques himself. Since learning how to go inside, every time I have listened to him he has instructed me on the subtleties of the practice of Knowledge in a little finer detail. Hence the importance of fighting the “now I know what it’s all about” syndrome. Not to mention that sometimes it’s enough just to be reminded an inner realm still exists, which he does every time I listen.... with an open attitude that is. Do you mean to say that the teaching is in his discourses that are an odd mixture of Hindu concepts sanitised for the West/ New age cliches. Really he is , if anything, 'The master of the obvious'. He talks about life and existence, which is neither a Hindu, Western or sanitized concept. As for being obvious, of course what he talks about is obvious. The sky being blue is obvious too but when was the last time you stopped and really appreciated the magnitude of it’s beauty? BTW, when was the last time you listened to him…. I mean with an open attitude. You seem a little out of touch. Or do you feel he teaches you in some Divine way when you sit and practice some well worn meditation techniques. If the latter you are seriously caught up in a belief system, which you rightly denigrate. No. Look, we've been there, done that. Pulling some mystical nonesense doesn't wash on this Forum as we have all seen through the smoke and mirrors and some of us even feel slightly embarrased about it. Methinks you are so prone to premies trying to mystify you with bullshit, that’s what you hear even when it’s not there. Maybe that's because that is 'where you were and what you did' as a premie, and therefore assume we all are just like you were. That would be consistent with the mindset of most ex-premies. Rather a supercilious and invalid assumption if you ask me. No my dear fellow, there is nothing mystical about the way I view Maharaji. He has shown me something that I didn’t know that is extremely valuable to me. He has continued to take responsibility for helping me to undertsand what it was he showed me, which I value dearly. Who he is and what relationship he has to God stopped mattering to me long ago. I say drop the whole thing and see what it is like to face life as it is . No Cocoon is actually very freeing if you dare go for the ride! Oh come on my dear fellow. I was on more rides than you can imagine before I received Knowledge. Facing life as it is..... that’s funny. Facing life as it is a phenomenon more rare than the existence of life in the universe. Hey that's interesting, we don't know the answer to either question now do we.

Subject: What's 'Knowledge'? From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:37:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is this 'Knowledge' you talk about, R2? If you reduced it to a mere nub of the meaning it once had, of course you can say that people still do it, like it, whatever. It's nothing, really, right? A nice way to close your eyes and relax a bit? Who can knock that? But if, on the other hand, you use the word the way we all used it, the way our guru trained us to use it, you've got problems. Here's Maharaji in his infamous 'Peace Bomb' cultspeak: But what is the purpose of this human life? It is to know something more than this - it is to know God. By obtaining the human body, you can receive Knowledge and meditate on God, and this is the unique purpose. Tell me, please, how THAT description jives with your version: There are many people who continue to enjoy Knowledge as a priority in their life, who pursue rewarding and lucrative careers, family life, and hobbies. Where's the God-realization in your defoliated version? It's not there, that's where.

Subject: You are thick as a plank From: Mij Relleh To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 22:17:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The God-realization (you just love pompous phrases eh?) takes place in that sacred and precious two hours each night when all outside is****, 1-3 am is good time. Try it sometime, oh no sorry, I forgot... IT doesn't work does it? You think after meditation we have to spend the rest of the time going around trying to play 'enlightened one'. Yes, of course you do because that 's what made it all seem real. It was all in the appearance. That's how it was for you then - right? You appear to have no idea what 'realisation' feels like, just endless concepts upon concepts upon sadly and bitterly unfulfilled concepts. Not a good feeling at all :( is it? No wonder your scratchin' and bitchin' like a cat in a cow trap.

Subject: How juvenile! From: Jim To: Mij Relleh Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 22:45:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The God-realization (you just love pompous phrases eh?) takes place in that sacred and precious two hours each night when all outside is****, 1-3 am is good time. Try it sometime, oh no sorry, I forgot... IT doesn't work does it? You think after meditation we have to spend the rest of the time going around trying to play 'enlightened one'. Yes, of course you do because that 's what made it all seem real. It was all in the appearance. That's how it was for you then - right? You appear to have no idea what 'realisation' feels like, just endless concepts upon concepts upon sadly and bitterly unfulfilled concepts. Not a good feeling at all :( is it? No wonder your scratchin' and bitchin' like a cat in a cow trap. --- So you know how to spell my name backwards, huh? That's amazing. You're a very, very clever fellow, aren't you, Roupell? I'm sure everyone's impressed. As for pomposity, try this: You should understand that Guru is superior to God, for God places us in this hell, but Guru makes fear of this hell vanish. Guru is the Creator, Guru is the Preserver, and Guru is the destroyer of this universe. Shri Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supreme God who removes the suffering of the humble and the poor. He who comes to the shelter of Guru Maharaj Ji is freed from the round of sufferings. or maybe this: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' You're dissing your own cult leader with those kinds of obejctions. Anyway, so you say that you're God-realized? Wow, I'm so sorry I gave up when I did. I could have been like you! HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 15:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....There are many people who continue to enjoy Knowledge as a priority in their life, who pursue rewarding and lucrative careers, family life, and hobbies...... yeah, and there are others who , reaching middle age, are depressed, unmotivated, can't string an enthusiastic sentence together most of the time, and wonder what the **** a DVD is , or how they can get on-line......and guess where they invested all there energy this past 20 to 30 or so years? Both sides of the coin please, Mr. R2

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: R2 To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 20:46:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....There are many people who continue to enjoy Knowledge as a priority in their life, who pursue rewarding and lucrative careers, family life, and hobbies...... yeah, and there are others who , reaching middle age, are depressed, unmotivated, can't string an enthusiastic sentence together most of the time, and wonder what the **** a DVD is , or how they can get on-line......and guess where they invested all there energy this past 20 to 30 or so years? Both sides of the coin please, Mr. R2 --- Yeah, and many of them whey were the same people who were unmotivated and couldn't string a sentence together because they were totally drugged out when they came to Knowledge. Was it an escape for these people...could very well have been! Is it possible to escape forever...not a chance. If we are going to look at both sides, let's take off the rose colored glasses. BTW are you one of the people you describe? Just wondering.

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 08:50:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, and there are others who , reaching middle age, are depressed, unmotivated, can't string an enthusiastic sentence together most of the time, and wonder what the **** a DVD is , or how they can get on-line......and guess where they invested all there energy this past 20 to 30 or so years? For gawd's sake, R2, you don't really think Jim's one of those, do you? The guy's a lawyer! For the record, I know quite a few premies who exed years ago. In many cases their lives are going well, pretty much like anyone else of a similar background to themselves. I know quite a few 'drifting' premies, people who still meditate from time to time, still go to the odd programme, and who still recognise Maharaji as their master, but without the practice of Knowledge being the priority in their life it once was. Many of these people have sorted their lives out, got themselves degrees and families and are doing interesting work. I also know quite a lot of devout premies. Many of these seem to lead an odd sort of life. They didn't bother to get themselves an education or they left it too late. They work spasmodically, if at all. Their work has little intrinsic value and leaves them unfulfilled; they rationalise this with a belief that job fulfillment is illusory anyway. Their relationships tend not to work out for long, because they don't invest the time, energy and dedication necessary. If they have psychological problems, they tend not to deal with them but believe that Knowledge will sort it all out. The exceptions tend to be high-flying premies who make a lot of money, large amounts of which they donate. They enjoy their jobs and sit happily in this position because they can also enjoy choice seating at programmes and the other perks that apparently come with donating large amounts. Are you attempting to deny, R2, that there are large amounts of devout premies whose lives 'in the world' are going nowhere? For the record, I think Jim's description of them is an accurate appraisal, and has, sadly, become the fate of many a previously joyful premie. If the evidence of your own eyes doesn't tell you, you only need to read some of the posts on 'Life with Knowledge'. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:50:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you attempting to deny, R2, that there are large amounts of devout premies whose lives 'in the world' are going nowhere? Livia, are you really using the premies around you as an indicator of how relevant Knowledge is? Then I have to ask you, is that how you decided to receive Knowledge in the first place? Your analysis is in a word, superficial. There were many social factors that went into the type of people who were attracted to Knowledge in the ‘70’s that you do not take into account. They were young, disenfranchised, many lacking motivation and ambition, many on drugs. The common thread was they wanted to be happy, and Knowledge made them so. If in trying to strike a balance between happiness and material security some were less able than others, well at least for many of them they still have their happiness that will see them through. And no Livia, you cannot know if they are happy or not by looking at their outward appearance and judging by your values and standards. Then there’s the matter of how you totally discard premies’ success as only having to do with getting a good seat. This in particular demonstrates how insular your perspective is on the matter. I was accused of having cult-blinders on by Marshall. Now I ask you to take your anti-cult blinders off to consider my response to you.

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:05:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, Of course I am aware that a lot of us came from the drug culture; the problem is that in a huge numbers of premies, an ultimately emotional dependence upon Maharaji and a resultant disdain for the world has left them unable to fully grow up or engage with the world in a true sense. Back in 1972 Knowledge was portrayed as something that would bring peace to the world, as well as to the individual. I along with many others gratefully received Knowledge in the faith that what Maharaji offered was the Knowledge of God. 'By their fruits shall ye know them.' Remember that saying? I truly don't think it's stretching the imagination to conceive that practising the Knowledge for 30 years would manifest SOMETHING in the hearts and lives of premies, that is recognisable from outside Maharaji's world as being of value, as well as from the perspective of being in Maharaji's world. After all, as someone cogently pointed out above, the Knowledge was originally described and portrayed as something with a universal quality, something already within everybody, waiting to be revealed. Its manifestation in people's lives would then surely be recognisable to anybody with a modicum of awareness. I don't think the premies in my home town are intrinsically different to the premies who live anywhere else. Why should they be? They practise the same Knowledge. But looking at them from an objective perspective, their lives look sad, empty and ultimately disappointing. Their achievements are generally hollow, because they are afraid to value achievement for its own sake, so they find it difficult if not impossible to throw themselves into their pursuits with due enthusiasm. Their relationships tend to be shallow because their 'relationship' with Maharaji subtly devalues all other relationships. This is particularly apparent in their relationships and friendships with people who don't have the Knowledge. (This is because they regard themselves as people who know something that other people don't know, leading to them feeling subtly and ultimately smugly superior.) Their ethical standards are often somewhat dubious, because a too-long engagement in Maharaji's world subtly subverts an ethical sensibility. I have seen this in premies all over the world - it's something that appears with the territory. Too long defending the ultimately indefensible, maybe? True happiness, R2, isn't something that occurs through meditating, attending Maharaji's events or participating in Maharaji's world. True happiness isn't something that can be grasped at or pursued. True happiness isn't peculiar to Maharji's little world. Maharaji separates the experience of happiness from the feeling of inner peace that occurs through living well, through truly caring for others and living according to one's innate integrity as closely as one can. Maharaji speaks of happiness as if it is some kind of drug, available to anyone who devotes their life to him. Where is the universal wisdom in anything Maharaji says these days? His only 'guidelines' are to receive Knowledge and then follow him. People did that, and then carried on doing it for 30 years, and you would think that their lives would manifest some sort of radiance. Look at the premies in the 'Passages' video, and what do you see? Even Charanand looks a shadow of what he once was. When I first saw him, it was only 6 years after Shri Hans died. Charanand radiated a universal wisdom and joy. What has happened to him? I see more universal wisdom and joy in some of the 'ordinary people' living their lives around me then in most of the longterm premies. If this doesn't matter, then what has happened to your values, R2? What has truly happened to you and all the other premies? Do you know? Can you even glimpse for a moment what has happened? With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: R2 To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 19:52:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If this doesn't matter, then what has happened to your values, R2? What has truly happened to you and all the other premies? Do you know? Can you even glimpse for a moment what has happened? Livia, what has happened to me personally is a wonderful life, that gets richer and deeper every day. Knowledge and Maharaji has opened my eyes to beauty, love, and a harmony that I wasn't able to see before I had either. I don't know what premies you are watching and what filters you are watching them through, but the premies I know come in all shapes and sizes. Some successful, some not. Some happier than others. They are indeed different than the norm but in most cases it is a difference that I love to be around. I'll let you in on my perspective of life Livia. I hate the norm and always have. It is the well-trodden path that leads everyone to the same old place. If that's what you want in your life, be my guest.

Subject: Re: What's 'Knowledge'? From: Livia To: R2 Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 08:01:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: R2, I see you can do patronising as well as deluded. Your idea that I just love 'the norm' is humourous, to say the least. These days I find the company of premies odd and somewhat disturbing, for reasons I have tried to describe many times in threads above. Read Silvia's post above for a list of the premies she knows. You have suggested that the premies I know must be an uncharacteristically sad bunch. Silvia's premie acquaintances in the USA (I am in England) also seem to be a sad bunch. Co-incidence or what? For the record, my (relatively) new friends are a largely a community of artists, musicians and writers. They are intelligent, creative, vibrant and often humourous in a way that I particularly like. They have well-developed bullshit detectors. Many of them do things in the community that I have admiration for and that are of intrinsic benefit to other people. If that is 'normal', then normal's fine by me. A couple of them, by the way, are ex-premies who, from what I can see have made a lucky escape from a mindset that entraps, dulls and anaethetises. I also know a couple of premies who seem drawn to my friends and want to be a part of what we have. Maybe they see more magic there than has been apparent in the premie community for years. Perhaps you are unique in your choice of premie acquaintances, but please try not to be so disingenuous in your observations of premies' lives generally. You must know that premies suffer a disproportionate amount of failed relationships and lack of motivation. It's just hard for you to admit it, because you would then be forced to examine certain things that you do not want to see. Wake up and smell the coffee, R2. With regards, Livia

Subject: I'm glad you were able to sneak back on From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 23:21:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Gerry, please don't throw this worm off the hook just yet). R2, PatC, one of the FA's, says that he knows that you and Turner post from the exact same place. I say you sound exactly the same on top of it. Are you calling Pat a liar? Because, if you do, he might have no choice but to defend his integrity by sharing his evidence. So, how about you admitting that you're a liar and be done with it? Then, even though you've completely violated the simple rules here and deserve to be banned, no question, maybe Gerry will let you stick around a little longer so you can preach to us about your wonderful character some more. :)

Subject: Re: I'm glad you were able to sneak back on From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 19:34:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: ''Gerry, please don't throw this worm off the hook just yet.'' I agree, Gerry. Jim needs a premie to argue with - not the one-liner, one-brain-cell types. At least R2 writes whole paragraphs. He must be quite bored working at S...... M....... in S... D.... where he posts from. PS BTW It would not be that difficult to find out who he is but I can't be bothered.

Subject: Thinking tools ... From: Opie To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:12:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia If you don't mind me saying so I think your analysis of the range of premies, drifters and ex'es is very well balanced. Through you I am sure that R2 now has the tools to take a broader perspective that he has hitherto shown able to do. The question remains - will he? I sincerely hope so. We shall see in due course. The fact that he keeps posting on F7 gives me encouragement. Love, OP

Subject: Boy, are you ever desparate! From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 21:01:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even you don't believe that nonsense, R2. You're just another Mel Bourne, as far as I can see. After years of making these patently stupid arguments, he finally folded and admitted that there was no possible defence for Maharaji, a classic cult leader. He sheepishly admitted that he was just spinning 'intellectual distortions' in a vain attempt to avoid the truth. Some day, if you're lucky, you'll come clean too. In the meantime, you'll continue floating these stupid trial balloons. No wonder you're anonymous.

Subject: Who's the desperate one here Jim? From: R2 To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 20:12:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look at the desperation with which you attack and spin and bend the English language. You turn even the people who support your own cause against you. You're a flake Jim. Not one of these new-age flakes you so readily call anyone who hints there is something more than the physical dimension. You are an anti-cult, anti-new-age flake. I suspect you've always been a flake of one kind or another, and always will be.

Subject: To the contrary, without question From: Jim To: R2 Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 20:23:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said in my other reply to you, you have just proven to my complete satisfaction that you don't believe your own idiocy but, rather, are trying to throw enough of it out there for the mere hell of it. The fact that you took issue with my characterization of Glen Whittaker's email to Ros Sutton as damage control says it all.

Subject: Re: I can see clearly now! From: Marshall To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:50:36 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Anandaji, Great post, great poem, great metaphors. Welcome back to the world of the living! Rational, moral, real. Vibrance, truth, honor. Premies remind me of the pod people in 'Invasion of the Body Snatcher's' Remember the remake, at the end where, Donald Sutherland is 'one of them' and he makes that scary alien noise? Also premies are like the zombies in 'Night of the living Dead'. Well at least you escaped,Anandaji, lucky you. Take Care, Marshall

Subject: Best regards, mate [nt] From: Dermot To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 03:45:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Good for you, Anandaji. Great news, grandpa. [nt] From: PatC To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 03:00:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I can see clearly now! From: Inside Edition To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 01:45:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Anandaji, Three cheers for you!!! And another three!!! There IS life after the spiritual and emotional rape of Rawat's twisted world. There is also a great deal of real love out there, which I didn't really experience very often as a 'premie'...I was too busy feeling fear and guilt. May more escape his evil clutches every day! Welcome back to your real life!! With all best wishes to you, Inside Edition

Subject: Anandaji: ****Best Of**** JM please note From: gerry To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 09:48:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear friends --- I must apologize for being a bit of a stranger, but I am busy reclaiming my life. The new journey is going super. I want to share it with you. I exed last December after stumbling upon EPO. Oh, most fortunate 'misfortune'! After spending copious hours reading through the materials, I came to see that I was 57, underemployed and broke, and in denial about depression, largely because of you-know-what. My most urgent goal was to get my financial house in order. So I began reviving a company I began in 1985, but has been mostly moth-balled for years. Well, after two months of intense work, such as I have never before known, I have moved mountains, rivived the company, and, sitting alongside me is a $5,235 contract!! Also, I used to be a radio announcer and have a nice voice. But I dropped that talent because working in radio meant I wouldn't be free to go to festivals. So I did the only intelligent thing I could do: I became taxi driver, which I still am! No vacation, no retirement, no insurance. Who needs a career (maya). Well, I was sharing my cult escape experience with a men's support group I attend in which I talked about the promising life I realized I had abandoned years ago, including being an excellent radio announcer. One of the men said, 'hey, I need a voice for a sales presentation.' So I spent a day in a recording studio. The engineer says, 'Hey! You have a great voice and we're always looking for voices around here.' That is leading to more abundance. My church heard about this and asked if I would narrate for their Easter program. I did and received lots of affirmations for my 'gift.' I used to sing. I dusted off my guitar, put new strings on it, and I am singing again. In two weeks I am performing at my church. I will sing the theme song from the movie 'Brother Son, Sister Moon.' I want to cut a CD for my parents who are aging. I recorded a tape for them years ago and it meant a lot to them. I used to write poetry. Hardly ever wrote again after receiving knowledge in 1973. Coincidence? Don't think so. I've read similar accounts in Journeys. People who were artists and dropped their talents to serve the Lard. I have a beautiful, wonderful wife and six sons, now six grand children. The last was born yesterday, a 2 pound 13 ounce preemie (That's NOT premie!). Isabelle Anna is doing fine despite her miniature size. God grant me the strength to endure my blessings! Meanwhile, I am feeling so much happier; a little depression here and there, but I feel well within the normal range for living in a world with a lot of problems. My spirit is truly awakening. I can see clearly now! The rain is gone. I have been checking into this forum frequently, but have felt too busy getting life in order to really read all of the messages and to give back. But the goal is to become increasingly liberated from economic toil to enable me to give back to those, like you, who have been so kind and generous to newbies like myself. Thanks!! And finally, here's a poem I wrote in 1973, the same year I received knowledge. Weekend in the Park Rolling carpets of soft green grass Hide the netherworld's enigma. A thousand pair of neurotic feet Move helter-skelter Like parakeets freed To flutter about the living room. Atrophied wings bearing atrophied minds, Inspired by unclear longings From within. When I was a child, we had a green parakeet. We mostly kept it in the cage, of course. But there were times we let it out to flutter around. I always felt so sorry for it being in the cage, but even when it was freed, it was only free in the living room. Free, but not really free. I wondered how much of its true nature it was aware of. Today I feel like I am coming in touch with those unclear longings. I have been freed from both the cage and the living room. When I wrote the poem, I was directing it at people I saw flooding into parks on week-ends, but caged in their jobs on weekdays, when the park was empty. I mocked their atrophy. Now I realize that I was among them...until last December. Love to you all, my brothers and sisters. Anandaji Thanks Anandaji, you make it all worthwhile to me. Very timely as my own spirits were beginning to sag a little. This is the best tonic ever!

Subject: A life revived From: Christopher H To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 22:35:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: by singing the theme song from Brother Sun Sister Moon? This is truly truly tragic! And these Forum 7 people are applauding this 'phoenix' rising from the ashes? Dear oh dear oh dear. This is beyond sad. Now, watch the grubby janitors scramble desperately to remove this embarrassing dose of REALITY CHECK. Talk about cover ups - a constant at F7. You mopheads remove anything that remotely exposes your inane, pathetic lunge for upliftment. I'll give this post, what... say 10 mins?

Subject: Re: A life revived From: Livia To: Christopher H Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:40:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahem, I remember 'Brother Sun Sister Moon' being shown at programmes. Maybe Maharaji liked it! There's a particularly unpleasant tone to your post, Christopher. Seems quite common in premies these days. Funny, that. With regards, Livia

Subject: Re: A life revived From: Jerry To: Christopher H Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:22:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You never got into Brother Sun, Sister Moon? I'll bet you did big time. Right? Sure you did. Those were the daze, eh? Now you say it's 'tragic'. You should be thinking the same thing with your continued belief in Maharaji.

Subject: Will you Sopwith? From: WGB To: Christopher H Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 02:22:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reality Check? I, for one, encourage and admire vain pathetic attempts at upliftment. You have to start somewhere. You find out they're vain if they don't get you off the ground after a few test runs, and they only become pathetic when you've been doing them for 30 years and you still think a flight instructor who evades arrest for vehicular homicide has something wonderful to teach you. **Wild Goose Bill (S. Wilbur Condon) (recently emergent lurker who used to mistake ducks for geese)

Subject: Hey there WGB From: Marianne To: WGB Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:53:44 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDb@aol.com Message: Hello Wild Goose Bill. A former lurker, huh? You're using your real name too, so tell us about yourself. When did you receive k? Ashram resident? Millennium? Amaroo? India? What made you decide to jump in here? Welcome. Love those posts. Marianne

Subject: Re: Hey there WGB From: WGB To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:16:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne: I was a 'fringe' or 'drop in' premie in the 70s and dropped out in the 80s. Lots of people in that category, I guess. I've never been to India or Amaroo and probably drifted away from DLM because it just wasn't as interesting as the 60s era that preceded it. And Maharaji always struck me as fake anyway. There's something inexplicable about the meditation though, so I'm still intrigued about that. But since it's hasn't turned out to be very useful I regard it as a sort of toy, at best. At least it doesn't require batteries, although it seems to only work for relatively short periods... like a model train I had when I was a kid. It would either go around the track a couple of times, very slowly, and then die --- or suddenly speed up and go tumbling off the table on a turn. Kind of disappointing. **Bill

Subject: At least it's not arti, Roupell From: Jim To: Christopher H Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 22:56:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why aren't you posting under your own name anymore? You developed such a wonderful reputation for truth and intelligence I'm surprised to see you lie like this. But, anyway, yeah, I thought of that. Brother Sun, Sister Moon, to me, is hokey in the extreme. But look at the stuff you sing? Arti? Come on, honestly, when was the last time you sang along? Honestly, Dave, when?

Subject: what, you ask? From: CH To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 23:34:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my own name? Who is this roupell? He must be important to you somewhat. I have seen his posts, I agree he enjoys such a reputation. I have never met him yet but I will try soon. I haven't sung arti since Stuttgart ashram in 1979. Good you have notived how sad this bunch people is. What are you doinhg here among them?

Subject: What? No arti? From: Amarooie To: CH Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:30:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Haven't sung arti since the 70's?!? And you're proud of that?!? You must not have been at Amaroo last year. Sorry you missed out. The words were flashed on the big screen behind Maharaji. You would have loved it! Or would you? Hmmmm.....

Subject: I was there From: CH To: Amarooie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 22:46:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it was really interesting, all these people singing to this guy like he was a diety or something. They seemed to like him alot . It remoinded me of when we sing to our Chancellor in the Great Hall or those English peoples singing to their queen. human nature

Subject: Now let's be honest about this From: Jim To: CH Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 23:00:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These people weren't singing to him like he was a deity, they were singing to him as one. That's called 'cult worship', huh? You were at what's called a 'cult meeting' out in the middle of nowhere, amidst a bunch of 'cult members' who were worshipping their 'cult leader' because they think he's divine. Sorry, dude, but that's a LOT sillier than singing the song from 'Brother Sun, Sister Moon'. A lot!

Subject: Paris programme, around early 80's From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 16:27:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of interest, does anybody remember anything about a programme in Paris around the early 80's or thereabouts, that was cancelled at the last minute with no refunds to anyone, even the people who ran the hall? Love, Livia

Subject: MILKY'S BOOK From: AV To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 16:02:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did any body read his book: 'THE EMBRACE' under his own name Michael Cole?

Subject: Re: MILKY'S BOOK From: Marshall To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:53:30 (EST) Email Address: none Message: What's it about? Is it fiction?

Subject: Re: MILKY'S BOOK From: AV To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 09:44:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sort of inspired channelling stuff, quite sweet at the time if you were in a 'newage' rather than 'sewage' mood. Spontaneous writing about the experience he called 'the embrace'... bumped into him about a year or so ago, unexpectidly pleased to see me, enjoyed good lunch and chat. He seemed to have a very positive outlook and was enthusiastic about life , which is always a good sign.

Subject: Re: MILKY'S BOOK From: Loaf To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:39:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its the story of his 'awakening' and mystical experiences whilst watching TV.. tears of gratitude etc. What is interesting about it is that M is never mentioned.. no teacher, just bliss and gratitude. It is also in very large print, just to make sure you get the message... and the message is that Michael Cole of the Embrace Foundation (actually his Mum's house via a P.O. Box) is willing to run seminars and to help people. Very nice of him. Milky I got to know quite well in the 80s - and he was an inspiring and fab friend. He ran rings around the Premies... I was actually there when the powers that be realised that he had forged signitures and taken out a second mortgage on Moorland Road ashram without anyone knowing... but being the 'close to maharaji rascal' that he was, no prosecution was brought. Milky definitely thought he was the scarlet pimpernel. After all, if the Master can get away with it... why cant the devotee who taught the master many tricks (he told me once that M called him Milky... not just cos he was pale, but cos he was good at 'Milking the Maya') He doesnt like being called Milky any more by the way... last thing I heard he was living in Devon, with Sue (Malcolm Livingstone's ex) but this was a few years ago

Subject: MILKY: for the record From: Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 17:08:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a few points: I knew Milky quite well at the Moorland Road time, as I do now. He had been asked by DLM to take the mortgages out to secure the property and raise money. In fact, the only reason he moved to the Manchester Ashram was because it was a good idea to live in the house he 'owned'. He got the name Milky not from Maharaji but because an Italian Neighbour could not pronounce Michael properly. He's fine about being called Milky and I only call him that. His personal circumstances have long since changed. IMHO Milky has always been a Maverick and thank God some did have the guts to be different. Who else could have run Divine Sales? Good for him, he got out long ago. As you said neither M nor K was mentioned in the book he wrote. Whatever your opinion of it's literary merits, it was from his heart and that is how he aspires to live his life now, in his own truth free of the cult. At the time he published the book I remember hearing from premies, that he had freaked out, written a book and started his own cult! What amazes me is how much he was knocked by premies over that book, and now it seems he is getting knocked by exes (and even in this thread, someone who hasn't even read it. One thing I can say about Milky, for all of his idiosyncrasies, he is one of the sweetest, sincere and kindest people I have had the privilege to know, inside or outside of the cult. Bunny

Subject: Perhaps you can explain how this wonderful person From: Jethro To: Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 19:05:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: told his wife(Penny) who went to him for support after she was beaten yup and raped that it was her karma. She told me that a few days before she died of an overdose. Jethro

Subject: Penny's death From: Nottm Bunny To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 18:33:11 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Jethro, I do not know whether he said that to Penny, but I do know of what was going on at that time. If it was said it needs to be read and understood in context. I understand why you might have made your post, based on the distressing contact you said had with Penny in her last days. However, I find it particularly sad to hear Milky spoken of this way, when it is clear your knowledge of the situation is very limited. He went through his own hell during their marriage which no-one but him knows the full extent of, though a small number of his friends including me, know some of. When she died, he grieved Penny deeply. He really does not deserve this. Penny died at her Aunts of a heart attack brought on by years of serious addiction to sleeping tablets amongst other things, not a drugs overdose. She already had this problem when they met as a result of serious childhood abuse. She also had other self-destructive behaviours, which eventually led her into the dangerous situation when she was attacked. During their marriage, Milky, who was quite well off at that time, spent thousands to try and support and help her deal with this problem, including extensive periods at the Priory (the famous London addiction clinic), a trip to New Zealand and substantial financial support. Eventually, they split up and had been separated for nearly two years until the week before her death, when she did visit him. I feel uncomfortable to disclose the exact circumstances which led up to the attack on Penny here in a public forum. At the same time, I feel frustrated in not doing so as it would go some way to explaining his alleged remark. He is long out of the cult, he paid a personal heavy price for his time in it and he is minding his own business. The irony is that some people, including me, would actually like him to contribute here. I think the chances of that would greatly diminish were he to read some of this. Bunny BTW, I am as an ex not as Milky's spokesbunny. I spoke out because i) the truth is important to me ii) he is a friend who is not here to answer back.

Subject: Re: Penny's death From: Jethro To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 20:50:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bunny, I have put up this info at least 4 times in the last few years. You are the first person to respond on this. Someone could have contacted me privately if they wanted to. The last time I spoke to Penny, she said she would phone me the following week. She didn't phone me which I found a bit strange, but I concluded that she may have been a bit annoyed with me because I was beginning to criticise m at the time(I was not an ex). I forgot about Penny until a few years later, I was in Cornwall and happened to mention her to someone when they told me she had died. I calculated that I had spoken to her a matter of days before her death and remembered the content of our last call. I knew Penny from when she was an aspirant(1975). She always kept in contact with me for years and came to stay with me and my former wife. I do not know Milky or whether he is a premie or not. I heard about his book also from Ron Geaves who told me that Milky has asked him to write an introduction. I was alos told by some premies in Cornwall that the book was really 'maharaji coming through' and it did seem to me that he had a little fan club. Former PAMs, especially those who have left, owe the rest to speak up. Individuals like Milky were responsible for setting up m as lotu etc. If they don't believe this any more let them tell their story, it will help release many others. Take care Jethro

Subject: To Jethro From: Nottm Bunny To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 11, 2002 at 04:47:04 (EDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Dear Jethro, I'm glad you got my response, I have been away for five days and this thread is nearly off the page. As I have discussed with Jim, I agree with your sentiments re-exPAMS. I believe Milky was the first westerner to receive K and that's quite a number. Maharaji banished him from PAMdom soon after his marriage at 16 and he did this in a very cruel way. The deviancies that we read about here had not started at that time. Milky dedicated seven strictly celibate ashramic years through a period when he was unaware of what many ashram residents were getting up to never mind M! So though he probably has quite an interesting perspective, I’m not sure he has any major revelations re M as such. When they were close M still liked cartoons. He has paid a heavy personal price over the years for the part he played. There are personal reasons he lives such a private and peaceful life at this time. But I can say that he strives to live it with integrity. Regards, Bunny

Subject: Re: MILKY: for the record From: Loaf To: Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 23:48:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am glad to hear that he is well and happy. I wasnt 'knocking him' just being a little bit facaetious.. its an antidote to holiness and celebrity cos I have had enough of the stuff after 20 yrs with maharaji. Re; Moorland Road... it is a very interesting point.. IF Dick Cooper etc knew about Milky's mortgage, then the ashram residents at the time didnt. I remember a very white faced Ashram premie saying that they knew nothing about it, and that they were hoping the national Office would pick up the bill, which they did.. so probably you are right.. anyway I was dead impressed !! Milky was a concious and sensitive and fab person to know.. I agree with everything you have said. He came to stay in Birmingham and was great company. I miss him really. people said they had a problem after the lent him money, but I have to state on the record that he repaid my loan to him with thanks. However.. I do find the book impossible to read now...but it definitely touched the spot when I first read it. I also cant listen to maharaji at all... but I can watch videos of events where I was, sort of nostalgia ! Please give him my best wishes.. and I am glad to have heard another side of the Moorland Road misunderstanding.

Subject: PS Re: Moorland Road From: Loaf To: Loaf Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 08:17:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In any event.. whether national Office knew about it or not, I was reliably informed by a number of concerned ashram residents at the time that signitures had been forged on the re-mortgage application. Odd eh ?

Subject: Shock, horror From: Nottm Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 00:35:09 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Loaf Yes, apparently, Milky forged his own signature on the mortgage application papers! :) And the mortgage broker was a personal friend so allegedly no need for dodgy refs either. Whatever, went down it appears would have been pretty insignificant in the light of: Dodgy smuggling, dodgy planes, dodgy yachts, dodgy manslaughter, dodgy charities……………….on and on and on in the name of the Lord of Dodgyness. Bunny

Subject: Re: Shock, horror From: Loaf To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:47:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the time I remember smiling wryly and thinking 'what a guy !' That is the ultimate double bluff... forge your own signature...I mean who would suspect that ??! Bunny, you seem to be extremely well informed (I am not) and rather defensive. Its OK... everything is alright. I am not attacking Michael... quite the contrary.. he is a luminous personality who, along with one or two others, made my time in EV not only bearable, but a riot ! He is such a together guy, among a community of wanna-be's and failed hippies... he exuded confidence... fab. But dont forget that 'charm' is an action, not a quality, and it always has an intention.

Subject: Charming! From: Nottm Bunny To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:05:46 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Dear Loaf We bunnies will always defend our friends. Charm is both an action (verb) and a quality (adjective): a)'He could charm the birds out of the trees' b)'What a charming bunny!' If you disagree you may write on one side of A4 your argument: ''charm' is an action, not a quality, and it always has an intention' including a convincing explanation of the intention of the bunny You have till next Wednesday when I return from my travels to warrens far and wide. Regards Bunny :)

Subject: Re: Charming! From: Loaf To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 12:18:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have NEVER been able to remember what adjectives and verbs and pro-nouns are !!! Its a blind spot in an otherwise literate mind. I get confused, then I panic.... and the next thing you know I am splitting me infinitives and being double negative. Next wednesday ??? I need more time !!

Subject: Sinister faces in text above unintentional From: Bunny again To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:09:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Should read verb and later b though I'm sure you could work that out I love the faces but do wish I could switch them off when unrequired!

Subject: Re: MILKY'S BOOK??? From: Marshall To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:58:38 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Hmmmm, Interesting guy this 'Milky'. 'Milking the maya' gotta laugh at this one. Who published this? This account of Milky's'awakening'? A 'real' publishing house? It's s shame he's 'too busy' to take 20 minutes and visit this forum, huh? Sorry for the excessive qootation marks today. Deal with it. Later

Subject: I don't know you Marshall......... From: Nottm Bunny To: Marshall Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 17:09:04 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: ...but I do know Milky, You don't appear to know who he is, let alone what he wrote. You have no idea of what his journey has been like and clearly no respect for his desire (or reasons) for a private life. Personally, I would not visit this place either if this was the invitation I was getting. Bunny

Subject: Um, Bunny, I'm not sure if THAT's fair [nt] From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 18:35:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This issue arises here from time to time: what, if any, obligations do people have to renounce M publically for the benefit of the greater good of all exes and, more to the point, people still caught in the cult? The question becomes much more interesting when one asks about, not just rank and file premies who've left but PAMs. Personally, I agree with Marshall. I think former PAMs usually do have a social responsibility to speak out once they've seen through the cult. Why? Because the possible benefit of their doing so usually outweighs whatever personal gain they get from saying nothing. All you have to do is think about the difference Dettmers, Donner and just a few other, former insiders have made in helping so many exit or, if they've already exited, better understand the true nature of the trap and the man who kept them there. Yes, true, Milky might have all sorts of good reasons for keeping to himself. For me, though, embarrassment or just not wanting to bother don't qualify. I'm not saying Milky doesn't have much better reasons but I'm also not going to assume he does just by his absence. There's another thing, too. Part of what goes on here is information distributino between those who have it and those who don't. Former PAMs are usually in the giving role here. They've got the goods the rest of us want. What really happened on such-and-such a day? What was M really like in this situation or that? It's not going to be as much 'fun' for them because they already know this stuff. We former 'commoners' are at their mercy, if you will. Again, look at the difference Dettmers made when he revealed something most of us might never have thought of -- M's 'x-rating' of PAMs. Or the hit-and-run homicide of the cyclist, say. If Dettmers had kept to his own, we'd never know any of that and we should know it. We should know it all. Fine that Milky's moved on but what about the old-timers who respected and admired him back in the day who haven't moved on? Not to say that Milky could make a difference but staying silent ensures that he won't, that's for sure.

Subject: Um, Jim, that's not what Marshall said From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 07:55:56 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: I objected to Marshall's post because his remarks annoyed me. It takes a stretch of the imagination to read your argument about the value of informed posting into his post. I completely agree with your general sentiments re former PAMs or any other clued-up or articulate ex-premies and the help their contributions can afford to others in the exiting process. Milky has very good personal reasons why he does not come here and why he values his privacy and space at this time. For him to come and give those reasons, or anyone else to do on his behalf, would of necessity rob him of that privacy and space. IMO, the most important contribution, we can all make, on or off the forum, is to be true to ourselves and come from integrity. I must say I am not claiming to have cracked that one, by a long chalk. But after the sacrificed years of mental, emotional and sometimes physical enslavement to the agenda of another, the importance of living my life that way, is probably one of my most valuable lessons and where I can make most difference. Bunny

Subject: uh...ummm....uh...what Jim said From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:20:27 (EST) Email Address: none Message: Being famous is a double edged sword. You become a public figure, and as such are subject to hassle now and then. On the other hand you certainly get benefits. I agree with Jim that PAM's like Milky should break the silence, is there some kind of con-man code of honor or something. As far as you 'knowing' me or not, Nottinham bunny, and whether or not you're friends with Milky or not, for that matter, are irrelevant to anything I've said. Also what's this 'invitation' stuff I'm not the welcome wagon or whatever and I'm not responsible for inviting anyone anywhere. I could care less what Milky does, unless he knows something important to the whole gmj puzzle that he's not telling anyone about. Nottingham bunny lose your ego and tone down your paranoia.

Subject: Marshall and Bunny From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:15:01 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aolc.om Message: Marshall: I do know Bunny in passing, and Kelly knows Bunny very well. Bunny isn't egotistical or paranoid, just being protective of a close friend. I have neglected to tell you Marshall that I always look forward to your posts. You, like Abi, were a kid raised in the cult. Both of you have a truly biting humor about it in some of your posts, and certainly deserve to be angry about life as a kid in the cult. You see things from a different perspective -- one which I appreciate. Given how you came to be involved, I can understand why you think Milky should be posting. I too think former PAMS have a responsibility to post here and help others understand what really happened in the cult. But I also respect the right of exes not to do so. In the end, it's their decision to make. The point of this post: Bunny's cool. Sorry for not taking the time before to say hello and thanks for your unique perspective. Marianne

Subject: What Jim said is not what you said From: Nottm Bunny To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 07:59:51 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Perhaps I have missed a few paragraphs. Do you have a psychic connection with Jim?: Only I didn’t think he believed in that sort of thing. Lose my ego!?! What an interesting admonishment from someone who has supposed to have left the cult. Bit like when premies would tell each other to go and meditate when they dared to contradict. And then you accuse me of paranoia. How does vicarious paranoia work? It was Milky you were talking about, not me. What a fascinating case study you could present to a psychologist . It may not have been your intention, but at least you made me laugh. Think what you like, I stick by what I have said and I have no desire to lock horns with you (after all, could be a bit wisky for a wabbit). BTW, is your real name Marshall or are you the Forum Marshall? Bunny ps I wrote this before reading Kelly's response - maybe we have a pscyhic connection too.

Subject: You mean like, you're in your mind brother!! From: Kelly To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 07:35:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You told bunny to 'lose your ego and tone down your paranoia' That's a bit reminiscent of the bad old days. As far as I could see, Bunny sprang (hopped?)to the defence of a friend and has told us a little about where Milky is at these days and confirmed that he was not Murky Coal. Thanks Bunny. I really don't think that anyone has the right to tell another, especially someone they don't know, what their duty is. It's a bit like the anonymity issue. People have varied and valid reasons for this, and it is not really anyone else's business. I think the same applies to whether people want to contribute at all on this forum, PAM or not. Often people read for years before contributing and some just read. Some take one look and never come back. Each to his own. And each to their own timing as well. If Milky has his reasons for not wanting to join in now, it doesn't mean he never will. That's my two pence worth. Just supporting a friend really! All the best Kelly

Subject: I disagree From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:15:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really don't think that anyone has the right to tell another, especially someone they don't know, what their duty is. Thank God, Dettmers didn't think that way. He wasn't going to say anything at first, you know. He didn't want to open Pandora's Box, perhaps, or just didn't think it would do HIM any good particularly. Why should he put himself in possible harm's way, even if that meant to more than taking a little flak from his old cult leader. I don't mean to speak for him, not at all. But I do know that he eventually realized just how instrumental he could be helping people understand the real Maharaji. Yes, I think it would have been selfish for Mike to not say something. AFter all, with PAM status came a lot of behind-the-scene knowledge of things the rest of us were intentionally kept in the dark about. In that respect, PAMs played a slightly different game than the rest of us, one that leaves them with different obligations, I think. Did Milky ever keep any secrets for Maharaji? What's he planning to do, carry them to his grave? None of my business? Well, it's my business to the extent that Milky and others urged us on to dedicate ourselves and consciously served as role models to some extent. My opinion, anyway.

Subject: Ooh goody, an argument with Jim!Re: I disagree From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:59:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Though I have to admit you do have a point. Certainly when people are close, like friends or work closely together like M and Dettmers. In these circumstances advice is sought and given, and sometimes it is hard to give an honest opinion. I really admire Mike Dettmers for standing up to M and challenging him and especially for speaking out about it here. But as you said, it took him a little time to decide to do it, and I don't think it was because people were telling him he ought to, it was his own conscience that led him. I believe Milky also challenged M and paid quite a high price i.e. banished to outer darkness! But when you don't know the person in question, and know nothing of their current circumstances, I don't think you have any right to tell them what they ought to do. With the exception of me telling Tony Blair how to run the country! I agree, it would be very helpful if more former Pams would come forward, and there are plenty of them out there. Let's continue to encourage them and maybe one day they will. In their own time. Sorry Jim, not much of an argument really! All the best, Kelly

Subject: Not much an argument at all, I'm afraid From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:22:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But as you said, it took [Dettmers] a little time to decide to do it, and I don't think it was because people were telling him he ought to, it was his own conscience that led him. Those two forces -- other people and his own conscience -- aren't mutually exclusive. I know, because I did urge Mike to speak out. One or two others did as well. I even caught some ugly flak for doing so from a few exes who thought I must have been harrassing him. Fortunately, Mike was much more open and mature than that. Obviously, he spoke out at the prompting of his own conscience but none of that would have happened, most likely, if I hadn't sought him out and talked with him. That's why I think it's a bit lame to just leave these former PAMs alone in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, perhaps another twenty years from now, they might speak out. I know I often need persuasion or even just encouragement to sometimes do something. I don't resent people for trying to get me to do something.

Subject: Well good for you Jim From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 14:35:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't really know whether anyone had encouraged Mike to speak out, it was just before my exit, so I was just guessing. So why don't you have a word with Milky then if you feel so strongly about it? You could try after all. And how do you know that others haven't tried? You don't of course. And who's talking about twenty years? Who knows? Seeds have been sown. But you 'really should' respect other peoples judgement and also their right to privacy. I hope you don't mind my saying so?! Kelly

Subject: Yes, I got an ex boy scout badge for that one From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 15:04:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't really know whether anyone had encouraged Mike to speak out, it was just before my exit, so I was just guessing. In fact, Kelly, that's exactly what I did. Called him out of the blue and got him talking. It wasn't easy at first. I knew him, of course, but he barely recognized my name, I think, or may have slightly remembered me as a much younger [:)] peon in the Toronto ashram when he was still nothing more than President of Divine Light Mission, Canada. To Mike's great credit, he listened. I completely pitched, as carefully as I could, all the reasons why he could -- and here's the delicate part: should -- speak out. If I recall, he first gave me permission to summarize and post about our discussions. Then he warmed up a bit more and wrote some pieces for me to post for him. Then he started posting himself and, in the process became friendly with a couple of other exes, chief among them, Susan and Joe, if I remember. Both, I'm sure, had a big influence on him. Joe being so smart and stable [most fo the time :)] and Susan being all that as well as the bearer of an appalling story of abuse and neglect vis-a-vis Jagdeo. Mike decided to try to go to bat for her, to seek some accounting from Maharaji for her, and that effort, stonewalled of course, really galvanized him. But none of it would have happened if I hadn't stuck my foot in the door like any other cold-calling salesman. So why don't you have a word with Milky then if you feel so strongly about it? Well, for one thing, it's not as if I've tracked down every PAM I could. To tell you the truth, though Kelly, being a North American, I didn't really know Milky like you guys did. It seems like he's in YOUR sales territory, more than mine. What's wrong? Don't you want to go to heaven? You could try after all. And how do you know that others haven't tried? You don't of course. You're right, I don't. But, if they have tried, no one's said anything. There are many, many former PAMs out there who just don't want to bother, I figure. Don't you? What other explanation is there for the fact that only a tiny handful of former instructors have ever spoken out? I don't think that many of them are still premies. Do you? And who's talking about twenty years? Who knows? Seeds have been sown. I was just making the point that this is one thing it'd be better to not put off until tomorrow, if it can be helped. But you 'really should' respect other peoples judgement and also their right to privacy. I hope you don't mind my saying so?! I don't. I don't necessarily respect others' judgment, not if I think it's wrong. As for their right to privacy, no, that's not absolute either. Put it this way, while I applaud Dettmers' disclosure about the cyclist homicide, for instance, I think he had an obligation to tell us about that. Secrets like that aren't principled in the circumstances, not when you've got people literally worshipping a cult leader who might give it all up if they had a fuller picture.

Subject: All points taken From: Kelly To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 15:25:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice talking to you Jim, it's not often I get to have real time conversations here these days! time is short now and I want to say a quick hello to Marianne who also seems to be online at the moment. There's more to say, but then there always is! Another time. All the best, Kelly,

Subject: Hello Kelly From: Marianne To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 16:31:03 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Kelly girl! T'was just over a year ago we had that Latvian Night(s)! I'm still recovering from that. Hello back to you. Marianne

Subject: Then I'm going back to bed From: Jim To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 15:31:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm in the middle of a long, long jury trial right now. But I'm also home sick with the flu. My colleague's covering for me. So I get up every once in a while to fight with someone. :) Otherwise, I'm sweating in bed reading Galileo's Daughter : A Historical Memoir of Science, Faith, and Love which is just great. I wish I read more and talked less here. Mind you, I've been saying that for years already! Nice talking with you, too, Kelly. Galileio's Daughter www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140280553/qid=1017952127/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_83_1/102-3019242-9484903

Subject: A little bed-time story for you From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 17:34:11 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Jim, As you will already have seen from my response to you, I agree with your sentiments re ex PAMs. However, we appear to differ in the way we interest exes and premies in visiting this forum. From a previous dialogue we were having, I seem to remember you like children’s stories [:)] Well, do you remember the one about the sun and the wind having a wager about who could get the blokes coat off him? The wind blew and blew and he grabbed the coat tighter and tighter around him. The sun won by making the guy so hot he was relieved and even happy to get his coat off. You don't always have to fight to be effective. Hope you are soon recovered from the flu. Bunny PS I trust you will get the analogy.- just better make clear I’m not hopping round getting peoples clothes off !!

Subject: Nice story, one of my fav's, but apt? From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 20:53:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Bunny, but I don't get the analogy at all. I'm not 'fighting' Milky. He's not here to fight with. I'm expressing frustration that the Milky's of the world don't pony up and spill the beans, if they've got any. Now maybe Milky's lurking, maybe lots of ex-PAMs are. But what's that to any of us? Should we just send out warm, loving vibes to them in the hope that one day, if we're good boys and girls, they'll come visit us? I don't quite follow you.

Subject: Re: Nice story, yes apt From: Nottm Bunny To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 00:20:39 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Jim, 'Should we just send out warm, loving vibes to them' Not so woo-woo as that, no. All I am saying is that though arguing someone onto the forum may work for some, making it too interesting to resist can be far more effective for others. I have a few testimonials to that. Bunny PS He's not lurking and I don't think there are any real 'beans'- he was banished from PAMdom when M was about 16.

Subject: Just shows how little I know From: Jim To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 11:58:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PS He's not lurking and I don't think there are any real 'beans'- he was banished from PAMdom when M was about 16. No,m I don't need to know what M's REAL favorite Baskin and Robbins flavour was.

Subject: Sory, abvove post with text [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 18:36:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I read it From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 16:35:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I have a couple of copies. Unbelievably now, at the time it gave me some reassurance to pick up my experience and walk.... looking back it seems to be unformed emotional fog.

Subject: expremie.org From: Chris To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:00:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Maharaji is so up on self PR, why doesn't he buy the domain expremie.org, make a competing ex-premie site and then steer attention away from vulerable areas. This would be smart counter-intelligence.

Subject: He can buy it, but who'd read it? From: JHB To: Chris Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 16:25:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EPO is successful because people read it, so it gets high listings in search engines, so more people read it. The stats show that most readers who use a search engine to find EPO do so by searching for 'Maharaji'. www.expremie.org would have a very small readership. BTW, I believe our enemies already own www.ex-premie.com and www.ex-premie.net, not that I give a fuck. John.

Subject: Better by ALL the Internet From: Jean-Michel To: Chris Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:03:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: don't you think? THAT would make his life easier. Problem is cash and pwks' gratitude that's not sufficient these days ....

Subject: Hi J-M! ot From: Marianne To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:35:46 (EST) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.co, Message: Hi Jean Michel. Are you meeting up with the Mad Mexican? Much love, Marianne

Subject: MM From: gerry To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:13:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, how's things? . . . . . . Are we talking code or has **** taken over our minds?

Subject: Re: Hi J-M! ot From: Jean-Michel To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:57:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm waiting for his call ...... Do you monitor him a bit ? He seems a bit wierd to me these days ...

Subject: to John McGregor re falsified lineage From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 08:18:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you're going to come back and post the rest of the thing you posted the other day, and include the part about the falsified lineage. For me and I'm sure a lot of us, the idea strongly put forward by Maharaji ('There is always a Perfect Master in the world') was a powerful hook. We were given to understand that Maharaji was the 'Satguru' and that the lineage went back through Shri Hans Ji to 'Swami Swarupanand'. It then appeared that the line could be traced back to Guru Nanak etc. I remember Maharaji speaking of someone called Ramakrishna as if he was a Satguru, so presumably he was considered to belong to this same line, as were Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed. Back in the 70's I had an an acquaintance who was a follower of Charand Singh, from the Radha Soami Satsang Beas, I think it was called. Anyway, he used to say he was positive that the meditation we did was virtually identical (although of course neither of us were prepared to discuss the exact details!) He was convinced that Swarupanand was the master of their master, and that the genuine line, for what that was worth, had passed down to their master. In other words, that Swarupanand had not passed his authority to Shri Hans Ji at all. We used to argue about this, as I was convinced, of course, that the true line had passed to Shri Hans. I have just checked with the history on EPO, and it says there that Swarupanand apparently didn't pass his authority to anyone in particular, but told 'all his mahatmas' to carry on with his work. This does somewhat put a spanner in the works, because we were sold Knowledge on the apparent fact that it was the 'One True Knowledge', being passed from Satguru to Satguru. This powerful belief, most definitely emphasised and encouraged by Maharaji himself in the 70's, was certainly a factor in attracting huge numbers of us to beg for the Knowledge and then stick with it. Seen in this light, the Knowledge then becomes a meditation taught within the Hindu tradition but without these enormously lofty connotations that we all took on board. It then takes on a completely different perspective. Many exes still practise these techniques and find that they still work exactly the same, even when they have completely and emotionally rejected Maharaji. For Maharaji to give these techniques away is one thing. For him then to claim ownership of them and Satguru status is completely unsupportable. Just to confuse the issue, though, he now says that it was us who put all those things on him, and that he never said those things. But he did, for many, many years, and a lot of us still have the videos and the transcribed satsangs to prove it. And it's all on EPO anyway. I and I'm sure a lot of us here would be very interested to know what kind of spin is being put on the lineage story. And in fact what Maharaji himself has to say about it. I'm afraid he just can't walk away from responsibility here. We were told certain things as if they were historical fact. Unravelling the actual, definitive truth is important, because there are enormous implications. For Maharaji never to apologise for having attempted to persuade us all to 'surrender our lives' to him, when he never had the authority to claim 'Perfect Master' status in the first place, looks very dubious indeed. In fact, can he even begin to explain why he asked for 'surrender' in the first place, if, as he apparently now states, he was only ever a 'teacher of self-knowledge'? With love, Livia

Subject: Good post! nt From: silvia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 09:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: aha

Subject: Re: to John McGregor re falsified lineage From: ganja To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 03:29:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as is clear from jmk's paramhans advait mat website, sarupanand ji stems from their lineage..the radhasoami lineage is a different pair of shoes...they are similar as concerns the inner light and sound techniques...but rs don't have nectar..they repeat 5 holy names instead...mantra type...dlm claims that sarupanand asked his mahatmas to follow hans after his(sarupanand's) death...paramhans advait mat -of course- do not mention that....who is right, who is wrong, only her long legs will tell....

Subject: Swarupanand From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 15:01:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were 2 of that name around from late '20's onwards. I wouldn't want to boggle up your brain before we've even read Glen's words of wisdom on the matter,which I'm looking forward to also,but......which was Hans'? Love Pat

Subject: Re: Swarupanand From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 16:31:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pat, It was definitely Swarupanand, always has been. Sarupanand was someone else altogether, no connection to Shri Hans. Love, Livia

Subject: To Livia et al From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 10:39:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'In fact, can he even begin to explain why he asked for 'surrender' in the first place, if, as he apparently now states, he was only ever a 'teacher of self-knowledge'? ' because surrender to the master is an inexorable part of the guru / disciple formula for spiritual enlightenment; remember the analogy to a living flame lighting the unlit candle, water flowing DOWNHILL, i.e. pupil subservient to master, empty the cup before it can be filled with pure knowledge etc etc. In history, the disciple would live under his Master's direction and shelter for years, during which time the disciple would be able to build up a long term deep trust, and also give himself to checkout the master's suitabilty and credentials. Equally, the Master would learn about the disciple and what his needs were, and how he could best be encouraged and strengthened, after all he was being prepared to receive the 'Knowledge of all knowledges', and experience an incredible psychological shift, when the individual conciousness enters the world of the 'uncreated, primordial energy that permeates all creation'. When I received knowledge many many years ago, I had no training, no conception of who M was, in fact he hadn't even come to the west when I first started listening to satang, and yet had my being catapaulted in 'cosmic awareness', plus the 'backlash from the mind'. During my years I had many difficult and disturbing experiences inc. falling asleep in meditation, and on waking, not being able to get back into my body without a supreme effort of will and concentration, like lifting a crushing boulder offa your chest. I cannot say for sure that knowledge was resposible for that, but I had lots of odd experiences which I consider too personal for 'open forum', but left me deeply concerned. And I'm not denying the beauty, just trying to give a balanced view. At times I tried to solicit specific help and support, but recall vividly how no-one, initiator wise, (after all the proper mahatmas had been sent packing), seemed remotely intersted or qualified to intercede and provide any spiritual ,mental or psychological guidance. Only remoteness,diffidence, and sweeping-hand-gesture references to devotion and surrender were offered in place of skill,concern and empathy. So today M doesn't want to be a Master anymore? have I got that right?

Subject: thanks, Livia and AV From: Gregg To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:58:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, you put your finger on it when you said, 'Only remoteness,diffidence, and sweeping-hand-gesture references to devotion and surrender were offered in place of skill,concern and empathy.' Weird things happened to me, too, but I guess I understood (without being explicitly told this) that I was on my own and that no help or explanations or context would be porferred to me by anyone, least of all the distant (and 'diffident') master. How totally stupid that was - to have a Master who didn't even know you! (Unless you ascribe cosmic omniscience to him, which we did at the time, but which is officially forbidden to believe these days!)

Subject: lineage From: John Macgregor To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:19:57 (EST) Email Address: johnmac@turbowb.net.au Message: Well put Livia (and AV and Gregg). Yes, I'll post the EV PR doc section on the lineage in the next few days. It's a bit of an eye-glazer, so be warned. However I think there are some jewels to be found in the dross for patient readers, as well - of course - in the comprehensive EPO material which covers this same vexed question. Presently, from the EV PR doc, from EPO (and the books and experts it cites) and from my own emails to and from the leading expert on this (Prof David Lane) it appears that the lineage is forged. However Prof Lane is attempting to verify this for me as we speak, and hopefully not long after I post the rest of the doc I can report his feedback - which may settle the question. To me the key question is not whether the lineage is 'genuine' per se - because most us probably agree that even if it was, it wouldn't mean anything - but revolves around the credibility of Shri Maharaji and his son - the latter of whom continues to trade on this lineage to this day. (See his website.) Best regards, John

Subject: One thing is FOR SURE From: Jean-Michel To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 04:14:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is that the Sri Nangli Sahib (see their websites, and the documents on EPO) claim the SAME heritage. Their gurus' pictures and Prem Rawat's pictures showed on his previous website were THE SAME.

Subject: Re: lineage From: michael donner To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 19:46:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the lineage issue always brings me to the same question ; how can someone (anyone) claim to be the sole proprieter of the technology called knowledge...the techniques of going inside. this simple technology should not be patented or copyrighted... of course, m and other gurus add the message that the technology does not work without the grace of the master...and grace is given for devotion. so, the lineage question is more like ; to look for the tradition in india (and elsewhere) of the devotional path...bakti yoga as opposed to hatha yoga or ...what is the other...action yoga. m comes from the tradition...no matter how directly..of bakti yoga...devotional yoga. this is exactly the paradox of his attempt to re-create himself into a simple dispenser of the technology called knowledge..or whatever it is called now...the 4 tehcniques or whatever.

Subject: Re: lineage/ Mike Donner From: AV To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 00:55:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly.. knowledge is the car, but the master holds the keys, period. Recognise slowly that on some level I used to punish myself for not being able to 'merge' in K.... thought I must be total loser 'cos M was keeping me from 'TPI'

Subject: Re: lineage/ Mike Donner From: michael donner To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 11:41:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was away from forum when a v started appearing i think. i do not mean that knowledge is the car and the master holds the keys. masters hold the car hostage to the demand for devotion by claiming to have the keys to the car. the 4 techniques are like a techonology to go inside. we need no master or special key for this. m's lineage is really not about the key or such...his lineage is about the inidan (hindu) path of devotion...he is one of many many masters and gurus claiming leadership on that path. folks that feel or resonate with that style or type of path are drawn to such masters and gurus until they no longer need or believe in the value of tht approach to spiritual practice. naturally, the gurus make leaving such a system difficult by their mumbo jumbo and the intricate belief systems, guilt and all the rest...many paths have aspects of such mumbo jumbo..like catholic guilt or jewish guilt etc. eventually the spirit in us rebels at all outside props and such and goes for the joy with its (our) own power, lifeforce and energy. gurus end up needing devotion and devotees, the flip side of the co-dependent equation. in m's case, he is either in deep denial or completely out of touch with reality to continue to present himself as a guru in this day and age. he, in my opinion of course , is totally addicted to devotion and cannot escape the trap he both bought into and continues to create...he sees creating an attraction for people to come to him...and in creating this attraction he himself is trapped and lost to himself.

Subject: to Mike From: AV To: michael donner Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 12:28:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, that's sorta what I was getting at... to eleborate: Having K at the beginning (pre DLM as such} was like being giving an incredible car to ride in, then gradually this idea is supplanted that ' of course , it only works due to the supreme grace of M..' the grace then became the keys firmly held by M without which I was reduced to the kid who sneaks into the drivers seat when no-one's looking and makes brrrm brrrm noises, but actually the engine isn't even turned on. Its funny, today i was thinking about the whole surrender thing, how after years of being exposed to a specific definition for that process, I actually stopped trusting in Life itself; as though if i weren't SPECIFICALLY surrended to M , with all the current buzz words e.g. UNDERstanding /STEWdent (ho ho)etc. , then I wouldn't qualify for the neccessary Grace to carry me forward in THAT FLOW...etc. So I became fearful, constrained , dogmatic. Now I am attempting to let go a bit, and not to THAT anything, but just to life itself, and the opportunity that each day a little more magic may peek out at me and invite me to dip a toe a little further.. this may seem nuts to a lot of you ,but there it is. I appreciate the availability of a place like this where I can , if not express my voice clearly, at least clear my throat.....thanx.

Subject: to av From: michael donner To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:44:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ya, that's it. all those layers that kept from from ourselves, from trusting ourselves for the sake of blind surrender to m. wow. it gets better and better the further we get from that destructive shadow. enjoy.

Subject: Re: lineage From: Livia To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 13:10:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, John. One question, though, which of Maharaji's websites has something about the lineage? I've just tried looking at Maharaji.org and you just get lost in frustrating squiggles.....aarrgh!! And there doesn't seem to be anything on the Elan Vital site. Strangely enough, he mentions Shri Hans' master on the Nottingham (30 year Anniversary) video. He mentions that Shri Hans displayed a picture of his master, and that he (Shri Hans) did what he did because his master had told him to, but then he goes on to say that as far as he (young Maharaji) was concerned, the only thing that mattered was that Shri Hans had given him Knowledge for reasons of kindness, not because he had been told to by his master. I wonder why he thought to mention that? Interesting, I think, that he mentioned as recently as 2001 that Shri Hans had been told by his master to 'do it'. According to Lane, Swarupanand didn't single out anyone in particular to 'do it'. In the Nottingham talk, Maharaji also refers quite a lot to the 'fight'. I take this to mean the opposition he is currently facing. There is an element of 'siege mentality' and I can easily imagine some premies deciding to stick with him through thick and thin, regardless of any lack of experience. Battening down the hatches is probably easier for them than facing what we are facing. With love, Livia

Subject: Re: lineage From: J McG To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 05:54:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I can't get into M's website because it forces me to download some software before entering (always a turnoff for me). However I have been there in fairly recent times, and seen the lineage displayed complete with pictures and dates for his Perfect Master antecedents. Has anyone been in recently, and seen whether this is still the case? M has been talking about that Shri Hans/Sarupanand picture from about 1997 - I've even seen it reproduced somewhere in a divine publication I think. The point being that regardless of the claim that the master is self-existent and 'lineage means nothing', it clearly means something to him. Yet another mixed message to add to the vast collection. I maintain that the mixed message - which strategically confuses at a pre-cognitive level - is perhaps the most-used and most effective weapon in Maharaji's armory. I'm a little confused about who Sarupanand gave the 'mantle' to - one version says '100 mahatmas', and the other that he gave it to one Vairaganand. I hope to clear this (and several other things in this very hard-to-fathom picture) up before posting about it. Best Regards, John

Subject: To J McG Re: lineage From: Kelly To: J McG Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 12:14:55 (EST) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: The lineage info with pictures and all was on M’s old website. His new website is a very barren place with a few Flash tricks, no pictures, just his words in a choice of 1 minute, 2 minute or 3 minute versions!!! Oh, and I think you can have music if you want. It is the most boring site I have ever visited and the slowest to load! The publication with the pic of Sarupanand in it was the special book they made for Hans Jayanti 2000, the 100th anniversary of Shri Hans Ji’s birth. I have a copy, here’s a quote…. “ In 1936, Sri Sarupanand Ji, who had been staying in the village of Nangli Sahib, near the north Indian town of Meerut, died. Before his death, the elderly master, who had a large following in central as well as northern India, told Hans Ji that he wanted him to continue his work. He also told his other disciples to follow him. But in the intervening years Hans Ji had married Sinduri Devi, a sweet-natured young woman from a neighbouring village in the Himalayan district of Garhwal, making him, in Indian terms, a ’householder’, a status many of Sri Sarupanand Ji’s renunciate mahatmas found unacceptable” So there’s an interesting spin…..blame it on the mahatmas!! The book goes on to say…. “ In the end, Sri Maharaj Ji was left with only a handful of people to help him to continue the work. But for the tall young master with intense, glowing eyes, India and her people stretched before him.” I expect that just adds to the confusion! best wishes Kelly

Subject: Ta Kelly - that's useful stuff (nt) From: J McG To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 01:36:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: T J Mc

Subject: ' the tall young master with the glowing eyes... From: PatD To: Kelly Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 14:43:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...then there was the small young master with the black eyes,the serious rotundity problem,& the world of international aviation which stretched before him : if only he could get enough people to flop open their wallets,but by God he did it. And in the end he's left with only a handful of people.

Subject: re 'siege mentality' From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 14:53:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I took my (then) girlfriend to see M back in 96/7? wembley, I hadn't built her expectations up too excessively ( I was still doing my best to assuage my doubts at the time). She said she thought he looked tired and fed up, or something to that effect......said she had an urge to go backstage and say something along the lines of 'you alright mate? you look worn out, ...' I wonder what the reaction would have been after hearing the 'if you don't like it ..WALK' stuff from M at Nottm, or was it only me that heard that?

Subject: re 'siege mentality' From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 14:53:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I took my (then) girlfriend to see M back in 96/7? wembley, I hadn't built her expectations up too excessively ( I was still doing my best to assuage my doubts at the time). She said she thought he looked tired and fed up, or something to that effect......said she had an urge to go backstage and say something along the lines of 'you alright mate? you look worn out, ...' I wonder what the reaction would have been after hearing the 'if you don't like it ..WALK' stuff from M at Nottm, or was it only me that heard that?

Subject: to Greg From: AV To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:13:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: GEE!!!! YOU ARE YOU!!!!! GEDDIT???? G U R U GEDDIT???? ((((((((WOW, COSMIC))))))))) XO

Subject: Maharaji wants your testimonials! From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 13:59:00 (EST) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: This just in from Glen Whittaker on the mole express:- Hi there everyone. This is important, something M himself is working on closely as it is the next phase of his website and time is getting short. The project is getting testimonials from a wide variety of pwks all over the world. Please spread the word around that these are needed, and should be e-mailed to me or sent FC to me. I'm being asked to provide more, more more!! I guess in brief the brief is: A brief passage about what K an M have done for us. Not more than 400 words (though if longer it can be edited down.) Personal is good rather than kind of detached observation. If possible want them DIFFERENT, with some originality. Any language is fine, it will be translated. Poor English is fine too. From the ones that are being accepted I see some simple eloquence, some personal touching testimonial, going right out to the very individual and almost wacky. Please help me out here! Let people know about this. If somone hasn't got e-mail access see if you can help them find someone who has and who can type in and send their submission to me. I've added some extra addressees I didn't add last time. Again my e-mail address is [email address removed - JHB] Good luck, and thanks. Glen Glen's getting quite popular here. Do you think I should email him all the journeys on EPO? John.

Subject: Re: Maharaji wants your testimonials! From: 210 To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 17:39:41 (EST) Email Address: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com Message: Where does one send the testimonials? I have one to send, written by a 'Partner WITHOUT Knowledge'. Doubt greatly that it would make the final cut, though. Pity. It would be a good read. Afraid I lost it briefly a few weeks ago. I asked my partner, 'How are you?'. Just a simple question, I thought. The reply was a blissful, 'Taking one breath at a time.' My response was not well thought out, but at least it was honest. I said, 'Well, you sure as hell can't take ten of them at once and then take a break from it.'

Subject: Re: Maharaji wants your testimonials! From: AV To: 210 Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 18:15:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for 'taking one breath at a time' read... 'I can't be assed to give you the time of day'

Subject: Re: Maharaji wants your testimonials! From: murkyCoal To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 07:52:24 (EST) Email Address: divineSales@aTownHallNearYou Message: Testimonials are the best idea that M and/or his minions have come up with in a long while. When I was a premie, my favorite part of the Divine Times was the People Who Look For Peace section, where ordinary (and not so ordinary) premies describe the events that led them to M. This was probably the only part of the rag that had any persuasive power. One could often identify with the things that the writers experienced or thought or were motivated by (not surprisingly, since many of us were part of the same sub-culture). But more importantly, the sincerity of the writers shone through and the way (admittedly nutty, looking back on it) that the writers managed to see a divine plan working its way through the craziness that was their lives served to reinforce our newfound perspective on the cosmos and the purpose of human life. That time the early 70s was the only time that propagation really happened: premies communicating their enthusiasm to others. It was honest (if naive) enthusiasm and a simple joy and pride in our young guru, and the promise of uplifting mankind thru changing hearts, that was communicated. The actual words and ideas were hopelessly Utopian or just plain loopy but it didn’t matter too much. If it had continued at the same geometric rate (impossible, of course) we might well have changed the world. Propagation started to die when M convinced us (he probably believed it himself - the recently reported stuff about “team work suggests he still does) that he, and K and propagation and “his workwere more important than the growth of the individual. Yet in a spiritual movement this can never be the case, since the “workis to help the world THROUGH the individual. The individual may appear (and may even be willing) to be conduit, but that can only happen to the extent that s/he is first an end product. Indeed, here we have a simple litmus test of a cult. If the group respects and honors the needs of the individual, it is simply a self-help group maybe eccentric but the human rights of its members - even to waste their own time - has to be respected. Where the individuals needs are subjugated to the needs of some greater “spiritual work, we have a cult, pure and simple. So the mission slowly morphed from a “movement into a cult, and premies both went along with and contributed to that change, maybe out of fear, certainly out of ignorance (we had no teacher), perhaps from an innocent and altruistic desire to help the world. And slowly, collectively, we all started to go mad. (“goodeveningwouldyouliketobuyanewspaperforworldpeacewe’rearegisteredcharity. M took over propagation and it stopped dead in its tracks. And it won’t start again anytime soon. It only worked once, at one special moment, when the mood of a generation and a host of cultural and social currents met, cross-pollinated, overlapped, complemented like Jupiter and Mars aligning, or the Nasdaq hitting 5 K once in a lifetime stuff, when sensible thinking is temporarily abandoned and dreams take over. These days, anyone with sufficient interest in a spiritual search to go thru the time-consuming rigmarole erected by Ms minions (no doubt for protection against some kind of lawsuit or other) will have the wherewithal to check out the information now readily available in the public domain. 30 minutes on the net should be enough for any halfway sensible person to conclude that the overwhelming probability is that M is a fraud in much the same vein as Sai Baba, Maharishi and all the other Hindu con-men. The database of information available at EPO the educational articles on Hindu guru trips, the history of DLM, the chronicles of disillusionment and rediscovery of self that are the former premie Journals (carrying much the same no, more - persuasive power as the old DT articles), and the cat being let out of the bag by Dettmers, Macgreggor and other credible sources of inside information in a seemingly inexhaustible stream of tales of corruption, mendacity, sleaze, laziness, indulgence, lying and cruelty displayed by Rawat, the source/giver/personification/perfect example/teacher of K - makes any argument for beneficial effects of K untenable. Testimonials won’t solve that problem. Back in the old days, I loved the stories of Don Juan by Carlos Castenada. I lapped up all that stuff about sorcery and magic partly because Castenada presented it in the context of a cosmos not much different from the Hindu mythology that we had been weaned onto. And Castenada presented himself as our own alter-ego: civilized man, continually tripped over by his own sophistication, unable to just “grok the world as it really was, a bumbling Sancho Panza foil to the wisdom of Dons Juan and Genero, and who occasionally, just occasionally and mainly thanks to the help of the real sorcerers, let go of his concepts long enough to get a glimpse of the mystery of life. Parallels with us, Mind, M and K were obvious (It’s satsang, man.) Then a guy wrote a book debunking the whole thing just by asking sensible questions: is it really possible to sew a lizards eyelids in the pitch black of night using a bit of straw and a thorn? I stopped believing it. Shorn of the magical world woven by Castenada’s prose, the stories immediately looked preposterous. We are rational beings. Superstition and magical thinking are ways for simple, uneducated minds endowed with a facility for imagination, to cope with mysteries. But when presented with verifiable facts and rational explanations, it is only a matter of time before the mind accepts the logic that it was built to process. Admittedly, traumatized minds have more problems, which is why it is harder to escape the net once you are caught up in it. But the natural attraction of rational thought and common sense is why religions hierarchies of power with vested interests in superstitions - have always been antipathetic towards science. That is why M’s organizations are ministries of disinformation. The only way to present K as a worthwhile opportunity for personal development is to sever any connection with M (whose personal development seems to be stunted in almost every way you could think of). So here is the contradiction: M can’t survive at least in his present lifestyle - without a claim to a special relationship to K. K is his holy cash cow. But K cannot be presented as a thing of value while it is associated with a man whose lack of spirituality (at least in the Western sense of integrity and moral fiber) is nauseating. M’s choices seem to be dwindling. Campaign to discredit the discreditors? Difficult, because if its not extremely subtle it looks Orwellian even to sympathizers. Ignore the problem? Dangerous: people with real grievances don’t give up. How about the old standby, It’s all a Lila? Well that’s OK when the only crisis is a premie falling off his beragon, but when the issue is wasted lives, manipulation of the weakest and most vulnerable members of communities, decades of cynical, methodical, lying, a firestorm of indignation, a long-dormant stockpile of common decency and humanity that premies probably had forgotten they even had, is liable to rise up incinerate such a complacent and callous dissembling. How about slowly, gradually, and giving as little ground as possible with each step, admit that MAYBE some things didn’t quite work as planned, that it certainly wasn’t M’s fault, and anyway the damaging consequences have all been exaggerated by poisoned minds? This worked pretty well up till the last couple of years. But the trickle of insider information is starting to turn into an avalanche, and the excuses are beginning to look lame even to the converted. Hey, let’s get back to the basics. People who look for peace get it. Testimonials, from simple humble premies. Just like in the old days, when premies were doing the propagating and it was actually happening! Well, good luck. At this stage in the game there’s not much left to lose. Ciao

Subject: Re: Maharaji wants your testmonials From: Livia To: murkyCoal Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:28:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re: Carlos Castaneda Then a guy wrote a book debunking the whole thing just by asking sensible questions: is it really possible to sew a lizards eyelids in the pitch black of night using a bit of straw and a thorn? I stopped believing it. Shorn of the magical world woven by Castenada’s prose, the stories immediately looked preposterous. Interestingly, I met someone at a party recently who 'based her life on the stories of Castaneda' (yes, I know, I know, what weird company i keep - well, believe me, I try not to make a habit of it.) Anyway, I tactfully (not) pointed out that Castaneda's books had been debunked years ago, and even more tactfully added that I had seen through them as soon as I first glanced at them. (Shame I didn't see through certain other things at the time, but lets move on swiftly here!) At this point a funny look passed across her face and she said 'What difference does it make whether the stories are true or not? I still base my life on the wisdom in the books.' Fair point, but the sticking point for me is, why did our friend Carlos try to pass the stories off as true in the first place? He must have known that thousands if not millions of gullible people accepted them as fact, but he never came forward to explain. Truth/lies, it matters, oh yes it does. Love, Livia

Subject: To Livia: BOOKS? SCHMOOKS! From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 09:54:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You think thats sad? I sat on Earls Court station one night reading 'The Third Eye' by Lobsang Rampa from cover to cover....became convinced that tibetan mysticism was the way to go, except for the drilling of holes in the forehead bit! Mind you I was very, very young (pre K)... I think 'Shri Rampa' turned out to be an accountant from Surbiton......why can't I hear the gasps of shock and amazement??? Love AV

Subject: Re: To Livia: BOOKS? SCHMOOKS! From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 16:17:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, but AV, this woman is in her late 50's, maybe even early 60's!!! Love, Livia (when are you going to email me?)

Subject: To Livia: OLD WOMEN ARE DANGEROUS! From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 16:57:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ!! she doesn't live in Totnes or Glastonbury , wear Purple and Tourquoise clothes and have either straggly grey or ridiculously henna'd hair and a macrame shoulder bag... should intro her to a few behind-the-scenes scriptural exposes: JC walking thru streets of Naz, sees hubbub of people, jeering and jostling....curiosity gets the better of him (sorry, HIM) and he walks over, pushing the rabble aside. Whateth is goingeth oneth hereth? An adulteress, my Lord, she must be stoned!.............(sorry , torn script)......she must be stoned to death according to our law Pulling the sobbing girl to her feet and drying her tears, HE said 'fear not my child', and turning to the transfixed crowd ..'whosoevereth amongt you is withouteth sin,let them casteth eth the firsteth stone!' ashamed at their behavior, the crowd slowly dispersed, heads bowed from whence they came...................all except a wizzened little old woman who came forward from the back of the crowd, and dropped a great lump of granite on the girl's head, killing her stone dead... Jesus turned to her, and said; 'you know, mother,sometimes you really piss me off!!' Love AV (mail soon)

Subject: Re: To Livia: OLD WOMEN ARE DANGEROUS! From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 05:59:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL!!! BTW, the woman I described does indeed live close to a conglomeration of earth-shatteringly significant ley-lines. She has long straggly grey hair and piercing eyes and wears a leather jacket with lots of fringes and tassles. She is heavily into shamanism and just about every new age philosophy on the market, and cuts a terrifying figure around town as she strides about dispensing wisdom to all in her path. I'd never actually spoken to her before (I'd been avoiding her for years) but was trapped with her for a fairly long period recently at a party. I have no wish to repeat the experience. Anyway, it's not likely to happen - she probably now has me down as someone of particularly low consciousness and to be avoided at all costs. My home town is heavily populated with people like her, plus a smattering of extremely devout premies. Going out shopping is a perilous exercise. Luckily there are a number of pillars to skulk behind when you see one of them advancing in your direction. Lots of love, Livia

Subject: Re: To Livia: From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:47:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you know that saying 'some people are part of the problem, and some people are part of the solution, and schmucks who sit around making up crap platitudes like that are definately part of the problem' XO

Subject: ***Best Post Ever(murky C's)***(nt) From: Marshall To: murkyCoal Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:20:56 (EST) Email Address: none Message: :)

Subject: That was a most enjoybale read, Murky [nt] From: PatC To: murkyCoal Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 14:04:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great post! From: Jim To: murkyCoal Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 11:50:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All good, whoever you are.

Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** From: Livia To: murkyCoal Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 08:27:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Murky Coal's above post is brilliant. Love, Livia

Subject: Murky Coal From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 08:35:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Obviously the name Murky Coal is meant to bring to mind Milky Cole, erstwhile British Divine Sales activist of great note. While on the subject, then, has Murky Coal ever posted under another alias, and does anyone know what happened to Milky? Just wondering. Love, Livia

Subject: What makes you think that wasn't Milky? From: cq To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 14:24:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Milking it to the last drop. (it's testimonials the Goo wants, and it's testimonials that 'murky's' post was encouraging people to give).

Subject: Re: What makes you think that wasn't Milky? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 15:54:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well maybe it was Milky then. I do remember him using the word 'craziness', but then again, so did lots of other people.... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: What makes you think that wasn't Milky? From: Ulf To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 17:09:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This could indeed be Milky. Infact i liked him . I have a 2 hour tape , with a satsang given by Milky in 74. Hey Milky , If you want it ?? , you can have it , and if not, it will stay here. Ulf

Subject: That wasn't Milky From: Nottm Bunny To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 17:04:57 (EST) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Milky does not visit this forum. I have discussed a couple of postings with him over the last months and even this one tonight, but he's glad to be out of all of it. He's happy living a peaceful and private life. Bunny

Subject: Re: That wasn't Milky From: RGJ To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Apr 02, 2002 at 21:44:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I'm not the real Milky. I just wanted a funny 'in' name for the post. I'm a long-time ex (just an ordinary grunt) and reader of this forum. I've never posted before because others usually say it first (with more humor and eloquence than I could muster). And the topics go by so fast. The idea of testimonials jogged my memories of those old articles in the Divine Times, which I used to enjoy immensely. Interesting to hear about the real Milky, though. Sorry for any confusion. Ashokanand (FWIW the initials are real)

Subject: Ha! Ashokanand! From: cq To: RGJ Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 13:01:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well, at least that's an obvious one! Glad to see you posting here at last, mahatma ji (no ... wait, it's NOT you is it? I'm getting the hang of this, aren't I Milky, no wait, er, Ashok, no, er, our JayJi ... ) Well at least I've got enough egg on my face for a tasty omelette. Oh, and if the real Milky's ever gets to read this - sorry, man, didn't know you'd moved on. (PS do you still use that fake Indian accent?)

Subject: Hi , RJG From: Livia To: RGJ Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 05:14:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: RJG, you seem to have plenty of humour and eloquence - I enjoyed yours anyway and really like the way you write. Come back and talk to us! With love, Livia

Subject: P.S. RJG From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:16:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: RJG, There, you see, Marshall has given you ***best post ever*** up above. I'll second that. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: P.S. RJG From: Adharanand To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 16:52:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh RJG, what has happened to you my friend? One minute you are there, the next you are gone. I am thinking you are spending too much time away from this forum, thinking about the worldly matters. Salutations, Adharanand (Livia)

Subject: Well, I enjoyed it, RGJ From: PatC To: RGJ Date Posted: Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 02:58:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you made that post. I am also pleased to hear from Bunny that Milky is out of the cult but I sure wish he'd say something.

Subject: From: To: Date Posted: Email Address: Message:

Subject: That's it in a nutshell From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!