Subject: hi ho, silver From: freedomrider To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi everyone, I cannot believe I would EVER EVER EVER leave this 'Knowledge' - such a dedicated true believer have I been for over 20 years. In fact, I could not have envisaged a fulfilled life at all without this constant focus (that's putting it very midly!). And I say 'Knowledge' rather than M, because that's why I came and that's why I stayed for so long, until having realised just how much i've been HYPNOTISED over the last five to six years by our master of illusion and deception. It took that long (fifteen years)to warm to the idea of doing 'service' and then I jumped right in and have been such a good little gopi. Never having really wanted a master, i found he somehow during this time became unshakeably entwined with my 'experience' (whatever the f.. that means now). I have been logging on to EPO for the last couple of months, when I can, having no regular access to a computer. I wanted to wait to post until I have purchased own computer, which is in train, however too impatient and just wanted to say THANKYOU and I will introduce myself more within the next few weeks hopefully. Thankyou to most everyone who posts here because without EPO I would still be in a confused state of conflicting thoughts and feelings. Still rather fearful of posting with my real name, lots of issues relating to many premmie friends and flak already received from starting to 'come out of the closet/cloister' to some premmies. There is such a dilemma for me re keeping my mouth shut, which I'm finding truly hard to do and having respect and kindness for premmie friends who are caught up as I was. I ask myself if i am being disrespectful, and indeed sometimes cruel, in questioning people's sometimes very very deeply held beliefs. I am finding this of particular concern with people who are not really committed practising premmies, but still seem to hold so so dear and close their utter trust in M's superhuman divine status. I give myself a really hard time for this sometimes and also can feel quite isolated as most of my friends seem pretty unshakeable in their beliefs and are most threatened by all the open 'traitors' (off with their heads, heigh ho, heigh ho) on EPO - the very worst crime - after all you just 'walk away', don't you (and yes, i've read some great posts debunking that particular myth - but not so easy to challenge those with head still in sand). I've only just resigned from doing service here in my hometown - not brave enough to say clearly to them the real reasons (although rumours abound, I am sure). Is this not just one of many hallmarks of a cult, or what? The paranoia! What a journey this is turning out to be - mindblowing and wonderful and to reiterate UNBELIEVABLE that I could be even contemplating such treacherous thoughts. And of course to still be sane, and not at the bottom of a pit being eaten alive by my mind! Sorry to not be able to elaborate more just yet on my journey out of the cult, but looking forward to having the opportunity to converse and share some thoughts, concerns, some fears and delight from my experience as a very recent ex. Thank you all again. PS Not sure whether I should be posting at the recentexes site, but it seems this is a forum for any ex, recent or otherwise? and i'm happy to play with the big kids anyway I think. Open to comments, just not sure when I'll be able to access computer again, in terms of responding. PPS The best best thing, especially intially was the great laughs i got from some of your posts. Talk about joy, now hang on, isn't that only supposed to come from within inside of me. Huh?

Subject: Welcome,come on in, water's fine.. From: Jim S. To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:02:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey freedomrider- Welcome! Take your time, relax and let the process take it's natural course. For myself, it has been a time of extraordinary growth, renewal, change and liberation. Leaving the fold can be exhilarating and scary at the same time. I'm, sure you'll have lots more to share, as time goes on. Take it at your own pace, and... Welcome! Jim S.

Subject: Silver Bells From: Gregg To: freedomrider Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:00:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations on your steps to freedom and all of freedom's possibilities. On confronting old premie friends with your new-found knowledge about Knowledge...just do whatever feels right. You don't have any obligation to get them to be honest about their motivations for believing in Prem Pal. I only have one premie friend, having left 'Knowledge' many years ago. I told her what I thought about it all, briefly, but the pain of watching her try to process this was too much for me to watch. I'm more of a peacemaker type than a stir-it-up type, I guess, so when I see her these days, I leave her to her beliefs and she leaves me to mine. Anyway, best of luck to you. Looking foward to hearing more later.

Subject: Claudia From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm in curiousity mode today: does anybody know what happened to Claudia? I think I remember reading here a few months ago that she exed. Does anybody know why? Livia

Subject: The only thing I ever From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:14:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: heard, which was several years ago, that she was touring Europe giving anti-maharaji talks. No other information. It must be quite something to be divorced from 'the Guardian of Truth', Dharma Pal Singh Rowatt aka Rajaji. jethro

Subject: Changing techiques From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the 80's - I think it was around 1985 - most of us had a Knowledge review during which the light technique was revised and we were told only to practise once a day, 15 minutes on each technique. The techniques were also renamed and beragons discarded. For me the most affecting aspect of this change was that we were told not to attempt to practise the 3rd technique (the old 'remember Holy Name') all day any more. I received Knowledge in 1972 and had spent over a decade attempting to control my mind for the best part of each day by the practise of this technique. Time spent idly thinking, musing or wondering about things was, to my premie mind, time spent away from what I should be doing. This is not to say I felt guilty about those times - how could you? - it was so difficult to 'constantly remember Holy Name!' But it did set up a sort of battle within you where you couldn't help feeling somewhat ambivalent about the act of thinking. Current premies may think 'you took it all too literally', and I have seen them taking this line, but I'm afraid this is 'fudge' and spin. Never at any time did Maharaji ever tell us in those days that we could interpret his instructions as loosely as we wished. He was more likely to rage at us on occasion that we weren't taking him literally enough. So, to get round to my point here, does anybody know why he suddenly told us not to 'constantly meditate' any more? I don't think we should underestimate the effects of having such a blanket instruction suddenly removed in that way, without any explanation whatsoever. And what about the premies who didn't have that Knowledge review? Presumably there are still premies out there following the original thing! What of them, as far as Maharaji is concerned, I wonder? If anyone has any angle or information on this, please post it! Livia

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:18:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember him telling us that we could drive 100mph thru the rush hour if we were 'on the Word'. No idea why he changed it, but hey it did generate all the Rejoice programs and all those donations. He even had his own smoking room in Birmingham where he could go out and have a fag.

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:44:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I received k in 1976 and got the squish yer eyeballs technique among the others, including 'constantly meditate and remember holy name.' Somewhere between '76 and '81 when I left the ashram we had a knowledge review with initiators who were revising the techniques then--easing up on the eyeball pressure. When I tried to reconnect with the cult in the late 90s I had no idea if the techniques had been revised again (except for the names of the techs) so I asked. So did my sister in Conn. Everybody we asked both here in Vermont and Conn. kept saying ''the techniques are the same nothing has changed.'' Then I found out I was doing them in backwards order, which I found more pleasant, starting out with breath, tongue, light, and ears. I don't know why I had forgotten the 'correct order.' I never went to a knowledge review where Prem conducted the review. But knowing how he is and how he operates if he said no more than 15 minutes per day on breath he meant it as his agya. I don't have the answer to why he changed it to 15 minutes per day. I do remember a post here quite a while ago when someone stated that a woman premie protested to Maharaji during one of those reviews, saying something to the effect of 'I love concentrating on breath all day, why do I have to limit it.' (all paraphrased) His reply was basically, it's my Knowledge and it you don't like it, walk. That's anecdotal. I have no memory of who posted that here but do remember it. Take care, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Changing techiques From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:20:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well one of his early selling points was that 'this knowledge can be practisec 24 hrs a day...while walking, talking ,eating and even sleeping'. Anyone care to deny this?

Subject: I walked after a review From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:17:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've told this before but fits with the topic. This was mid-80's when M did the K reviews. I can't recall the changes in techniques but vividly recall something M said. Perhaps someone asked about not finding time to practice K or a similar question. M said Well, you don't HAVE to practice Knowledge you know. He was being cocky and daring us to NOT practice K. My personal experience, though, was it hit me hard right in my solar plexus. It was very intense. Wait a minute here - of course we HAD to practice K. After all, that had been emphasized (drilled into us) since day one. So that was a change in K that caught my attention for sure. That week I went on a 10 day retreat with a self empowerment group I had been working with. By day 2 I had stopped K which I had missed maybe 5 days of practice in 14 years. I didn't start up again for another 7 years. Why go back? Well, I missed the community of my old friends and when M came to Seattle and did an intro event I was amazed at how simple it all was. No guru stuff. M was just a meditation teacher now - cool. Then I attended a K review with M and again - so simple. Next came Long Beach and the nostalgia vibes were familiar but - whoa! What's with all the devotional stuff? I thought that stuff was over with. The old bait and switch. Of course now that he has discarded the confusing Hindu stuff that never was and is Prem my Pal the foundation leader, perhaps it's safe to try self-knowledge again? NOT! Richard

Subject: Best of Forum just updated! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:23:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dozens of updates on the Best of Forum page Don't miss: M's Urban legends - including M's trip to the planet of the perfect masters and meeting with Durga on the way back And a lot more to come this week ....

Subject: Thanks, Jean-Michel... From: Cynthia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Thanks for your work. I just read through quite a few them and it was revealing and funny. I'd forgotton about so many of the posts... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Best of best? From: Jean-Michel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:10:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sure you've noticed there is now too many links on that page ! What about making a best of best section, as an introduction maybe ? Waiting for suggestions.

Subject: No THAT line again From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 05:48:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I met up with a friend who I meet occassionally at clubs/parties. Billy is a long-time premie who has never had much to do with DLM/EV,but has that devotion to maharaji. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I made it really clear in our first meeting what I thought about maharaji and just to leave the subject alone with me. Anyway, I met him last weekend at a party and he just started off talking about prem as if I was a devotee. It was a great party, and Billy told me that the party was great due to GMJ's grace(he doesn't know about calling HIM prem yet) and only him and me knew that. I gently reminded him that I no longer believed in maharaji and that I had no respect whatsoever for his Lord(ie prem). He then continued to 'give me satsang', at which point I shouted that I was not interested in having a liar and paedophile protector in my life etc blah blah...blah. Anyway, we sort of made up and he ended up saying THAT punchline that encapsulates the premie-ego ..and here it is.... 'Jethro, I don't care what you say, but anyone who has received knowledge, whether they practice or not, whether ex-premie or not is different to everyone else.' I replied 'Yes Billy, and the HareKrishnas, Moonies etc say the same thing about their cult leaders.'

Subject: Re: No THAT line again From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:55:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Jethro, I don't care what you say, but anyone who has received knowledge, whether they practice or not, whether ex-premie or not is different to everyone else.' Good bloody grief! - that smug premie air of superiority again. What an unbelievable belief system perpetuated by the nods and winks of Prem Rawat. Drip drip drip Thanks for sharing that Jethro. bests, Thorin

Subject: Re: No THAT line again From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 07:53:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dreadful, and spot on. I would hazard a guess that most premies would be reluctant to admit it though, especially these days. When I first met my partner, who isn't a premie, he soon suspected I felt something along those lines, and managed to drag it out of me. He was appalled by what he felt was a 'spiritual arrogance'. I tried to convince him that it wasn't arrogance and that I had just been fortunate enough to receive a gift, blahblahblah but he wasn't having any of it. At the root of it, he felt, was that I felt I knew something that he didn't. Which, ultimately, was true. Over on LG, Will posted a brilliant answer to Harry's post in which he pointed out that ultimately a premie feels that their feeling within is somehow different to other people's. But as he explained so well, how can one ever know this? Each person's experience is their own experience after all, and no one can get inside anyone else's. Maybe Jesus' words come in useful here: 'By their fruits ye shall know them.' Premies' fruits? Hmmmmm...... Love, Livia

Subject: Psychology 101 From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:41:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Straight out of college text book: Psychology by David G. Myers The Foot-In-Door Phenomenon During the Korean War, many captured U.S. soldiers were imprisoned in war camps run by Chinese communists. Without using brutality, the captors secured the collaboration of hundreds of their prisoners in various activities. Some merely ran errands or accepted favors. Others made radio appeals and false confessions. Still others informed on fellow prisoners and divulged military information. When the war ended, 21 prisoners chose to stay with the communists. More returned home 'brainwashed'-convinced that communism was a good t hing for Asia. A key ingredient of the Chinese 'thought-control' program was its effective use of the foot-in-the-door phenomenon-a tendency for people who agree to a small request to comply later with a larger one. The Chinese harnessed this phenomenon by gradually escalating their demands on the prisoners, beginning with harmless requests (Schein, 1956). Having 'trained' the prisoners to speak or write trivial statements, the communists then asked them to copy or create something more important, noting, perhaps, the flaws of capitalism. The prisoners then participated in group discussions, wrote self-criticisms, or uttered public confessions. Once they had done so, perhaps to gain privileges, the prisoners then often adjusted their beliefs toward consistency with their public acts. The point is simple, says Rober Cialdini(1993): To get people to agree to something big, 'Start small and build.' And be wary of those who would exploit you with the tactic. A trivial act makes the next act easier. Succumb to a temptation and you will find the next temptation harder to resist. In dozens of experiments simulating part of the war prisoners' experience, people have been coaxed into acting against their attitudes or violating their moral standards. The nearly inevitable result: Most subjects begin to rationalize their behaviour, persuading themselves that they were justified in saying or doing what they did. If induced to speak or write on behalf of a point of view they have doubts about, they begin to believe their own words. Saying becomes believing. Similarly, subjects induced to harm an innocent victim-by making cutting comments or by delivering electric shocks-typically begin to disparge their victim. Experiments confirm that moral action has positive effects on the actor and that doing favors for another person often leads to greater liking of the person. We love people for the good we do them as well as for the good they do us. Evil acts certainly shape the self. But so do acts of good will. Act as if you like someone, and you soon will. Role Playing Affects Attitudes When you adopt a new role, you strive to follow the social prescriptions. At first, your behaviours may feel phony. Before long, however, your behaviour no longer feels forced. What began as play-acting in the theater of life becomes you. Researchers have confirmed this effect. They have assessed people's attitudes before and after they adopt a new role, sometimes in laboratory situations, sometimes in everyday situations, such as before and after taking a job. Behaviour affects attitudes. What we do, we gradually become. As the nineteenth-century writer Nathanial Hawthorne noted, 'No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally getting bewildered as to whcih may be true.' When we are aware that our attitudes and actions don't coincide, we experience tension, called cognitive dissonance. To relieve this tension, according to Leon Festinger, we often bring our attitudes into line with our actions. It is as if we rational 'If I chose to do it (or say it), I must believe in it.' The less coerced and more responsible we feel for a troubling act, the more dissonance we feel. The more dissonance we feel, the more motivated we are to find consistency, such as changing our attitudes to help justify the act. "If the King destroys a man, that's proof to the King it must have been a bad man." -Thomas Cromwell, Robert Bolt's A Man for All Seasons, 1960 Part Deux to follow: Social Influence

Subject: Re: Psychology 101 From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:00:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can see what you're getting at by posting that, but what do you think about this part: Experiments confirm that moral action has positive effects on the actor and that doing favors for another person often leads to greater liking of the person. We love people for the good we do them as well as for the good they do us. Do you think that carrying out morally good acts for someone can help lead to genuine love for that person? I'm just curious as to what you think. Cheers Livia

Subject: Psych Wars From: Gregg To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:38:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, you quoted this psychological observation: ' Behaviour affects attitudes. What we do, we gradually become.' and 'When we are aware that our attitudes and actions don't coincide, we experience tension, called cognitive dissonance. To relieve this tension, according to Leon Festinger, we often bring our attitudes into line with our actions.' This is certainly part of the cult indoctrination process. Note the word 'acculturation.' It implies gradually bringing the self in line with cultural (or cult) norms. Psychologically, it can happen as you imply. You first bow down to Lord M.'s picture cuz everybody else is doing it, and you don't want to offend folks by not joining in. Just like in church or at the ball game during the national anthem. Eventually, you come around internally as well. But this psychological truism has its usefulness, too. For example, acting as if you're happy - sitting up straight, smiling, being nice to people - is one of the most effective ways to actually get happy! The internal state comes in line with outward manifestations. Silmilarly, acting as if you're already enlightened has interesting results (Ask yourself: how would I be/act right now if I were enlightenened?); perhaps a better practice than worshipping a guru orsitting on a zafu in hopes that one day, if you do it right, enlightenment will be a result. In any case, the fluidity of our psychological states makes us both ripe for growth and vulnerable to manipulation by others. And when the 'others' are united in purpose, as cultists all in love with the same smug soulsucker, one individual often doesn't have much of a chance.

Subject: Festinger From: Thorin To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 02:00:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki Thanks for that - most illuminating. re Role playing. Just last week I was on a course (time management) which included a certain amount of role playing. Always liked that but, again, I saw how easy it was to role play and take on the associated emotions and mindset that role playing induces. One role playing situation was learning how to say 'no' where we were split into two's with one person simply saying 'no' to any demands, however reasonable, the other made. Very quickly a dynamic was created that whilst patently false certainly felt very real. Whilst in the role play it was apparent how difficult it was to disassociate oneself from that dynamic. Very interesting. Which leads to another area that your post referred to that of Leon Festinger and his theory of dissonance. This subject has been much discussed on this forum and elsewhere but I think is worth restating. See above link which give a fairly good summary of the theory. Also a couple of extracts from elsewhere: Festinger observes: 'A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. 'We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. 'But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view also In studying this phenomena [of failed prophecies], credit must be given to Leon Festinger for his cognitive dissonance theory, as developed in his book When Prophecy Fails, originally published in 1956 and co-authored by Festinger, Henry W. Riecken and Stanley Schachter. The authors comprised a research team who conducted a study of a small cult-following of a Mrs. Marian Keech, a housewife who claimed to receive messages from aliens via automatic writing. The message of the aliens was one of a coming world cataclysm, but with the hope of surviving for the elect who listened to them through Keech and selected other mediums. What Festinger and his associates demonstrated in the end was that the failure of prophecy often has the opposite effect of what the average person might expect; the cult following often gets stronger and the members even more convinced of the truth of their actions and beliefs! This unique paradox is the focus of attention in this article, and will be later applied specifically to the [Jehovah's Witness movement]. Of particular interest in Festinger's book is how the followers of Mrs. Keech reacted to each disconfirmation (failed date). Little attempt was made to deny the failure. The strength to continue in the movement was derived, not largely from the rationalizations , but from the very energy of the group itself and its dedication to the cause. This explains why proselytizing was so successful later in reinforcing the group's sagging belief system. Festinger relates: 'But whatever explanation is made it is still by itself not sufficient. The dissonance is too important and though they may try to hide it, even from themselves, the believers still know that the prediction was false and all their preparations were in vain. The dissonance cannot be eliminated completely by denying or rationalizing the disconfirmation. But there is a way in which the remaining dissonance can be reduced. If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must, after all, be correct. Consider the extreme case: if everyone in the whole world believed something there would be no question at all as to the validity of this belief. It is for this reason that we observe the increase in proselytizing following disconfirmation. If the proselytizing proves successful, then by gathering more adherents and effectively surrounding himself with supporters, the believer reduces dissonance to the point where he can live with it.' Strike any chords anyone? Eager to see part 2 Vicki warmly, Thorin Festinger link www.geocities.com/tarob01/Festinger.html

Subject: Interesting... From: Chuck S. To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 01:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "Start small and build". Incremental. It reminds me of what gave me the creeps about the Aspirant Process. The way Maharaji was talked about in all the introductory materials, the videos for aspirants, and what was joked about as the "Frankinstein Videos", videos that were made up of snipets of other videos, and interspliced with quotes from famous philosophers, poets and writers. It all seemed warm, fuzzy and comfortable, and quite harmless. As one progresses through the videos, things change slowly. There is this teacher... the teacher is also a Master... a Master is actually more than just a teacher... it happens gradually. But if you compair one of the introductory videos to something like the Atlanta Training Video (definitely NOT for aspirants!), you see quite a jump! A premie calling himself California Premie Guy had posted several weeks ago, and said that the kind of "Brainwashing" that had been believed in and made populular in the 1950's (in movies like "The Manchurian Candidate") had been disproven, and he didn't see how premies could be brainwashed. "Brainwashing" is such a dramatic, drastic, heavy-handed word. I hate using it in terms of what happened with the premies, for the same reason CPG didn't like it. People can't be MADE to do things against their will via brainwashing. But the kind of thought-control you are discussing here is much more on the mark. It starts with very small things. It's gradual. It's SUBTLE, not heavy-handed. The person being subjected to these influences cooperates willingly, and isn't forced, but is influenced and manipulated. Thanks Vicki, I look forward to part 2.

Subject: From 'The Onion' From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:33:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who does this remind you of? Bar-Trivia Champ Being a Real Dick About It! http://www.theonion.com/onion3816/bar-trivia_champ.html

Subject: Re: From 'The Onion' From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who does this remind you of? Bar-Trivia Champ Being a Real Dick About It! http://www.theonion.com/onion3816/bar-trivia_champ.html --- I don't know, Dog. Who?

Subject: Your point? From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:22:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, let's all become mediocrities then, Dep. It's so much fairer and more egalitarian to conform to the lowest common denominator. You need to read the Gallant Gallstone.

Subject: Re: Your point? What? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:58:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of a point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve, which flows on, pointless. -- D. H. Lawrence What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out!

Subject: Re: Your point? What? From: Bolly Shri To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:10:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny last time I looked The Onion seemed to be making lots of points. Could you perhaps be holding it the wrong way up.

Subject: Careful, Nige From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:32:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you keep asking Dog to take responsibility for his words he might see through the F7 trap and run off to LG or something. Don't forget, free speech is never having to say you're sorry. :)

Subject: Disingenuous, Dog.. From: Nigel To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:21:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound like you are feeling a bit sheepish about your original post, Dog (unless you would care to explain). Maybe you are now covering your ass a little? You wrote: Who does this remind you of? (pointing to web-link) Now you write to Pat: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? I would say your original question was a pretty good reason, and your off-hand treatment of Pat now is, to say the least, unnecessary, if not more than a little discourteous. Many of us thought you were setting some kind of riddle. Care to tell us who we should be reminded of by the Onion piece? If not, then why not? And why sound so offended by anyone questioning your motives? So who does that (Onion article) remind you of, Dep? Your question, your thread - we are all watching and listening, hardly daring to breathe...

Subject: Disrespectful, Dog From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:32:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not the first time he has given me the brush off.

Subject: Point taken, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I made a mistake and you were not taking a dig at Jim. :P

Subject: Re: Point taken, Dep From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess I made a mistake and you were not taking a dig at Jim. :P --- PatC, How dare you imply I was taking a dig at Jim. The guy in The Onion article is an arrogant bastard, who always has to be right about everything, who sees even the most trivial of disagreements as a life and death struggle, who always wants to prove he is smarter than everyone else, who always has to be the centre of attention, who doesn't understand when people get irritated at . . . hey, wait a minute, when you think of it, yeah, jeez, it does remind of Jim a bit, a lot in fact . . . Whoa! Is my face red! =)

Subject: Unfunny and dishonest, Dog From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:19:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This forum is filled with the writings of sincere honest and often witty people who are questioning everything, learning and teaching, engaging in heart to heart discussion and what do I find from you? A sneering, deceitful and passive-aggressive post from the Sainted socalled spiritual Dog. I'm sure that in that duplicitous brain of yours you have somehow even absolved yourself of any responsibility for your snide joke about Jim and probably now believe in your simperingly pious addle-pated way that I did indeed put that thought in your head. Meanwhile you can go on thinking of yourself as some sort of New Age mahatma. You're as crooked and dishonest as they come, Dog. You remind me of christians I have known who are constantly flaunting their saintliness but deep down are seething with misanthropic hatred and anger. Why do only sanctimonious and self-righteous idiots constantly spout religion all the time? Because they need it to tame their own misanthropy. The rest of us are quite contented to just like people and behave ethically. You're a pompous and holier-than-thou fool, Dog, and probably filled to the brim with scorn for your fellow humans and hiding behind spirituality. In short a hypocrite and lacking in any sort of self-knowledge. Examine your own conscience before making anymore passive-aggressive socalled jokes like that. Your real true sneering misanthropic self is obvious to anyone with any decency.

Subject: So this is how you want to play it? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:42:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, fine, so you finally quit lying and admit that you were talking about me. In the midst of your lying, you even found a way to chastise Pat as not being 'mellow' enough when, in fact, he was right and you were, like I say, just lying. Whatever, eh? Pat sohuld probably still mellow a bit, huh? Why, if he doesn't you might even start lampooning him like this, right? Oh, sorry, Deputy Dog. What a surprise! Anyway, I've seen this entire dance before. Here are the steps: 1) New age guy pontificates this way or that. They don't always concede, even jokingly, that they're 'sermonizing' but you did. 2) Someone confronts new age guy who tries to play some sort of Ghandi-type possum or armadillo perhaps: Please, sir, don't question me as I am a gentle person lying dead to the world here in the middle of the road. No, I won't move because this is the nature of my protest against the madness. Besides, you don't even know where I am. I see you talking to my head but, believe me, I'm not there! 3) Other guy walks away in disgust. 4) New age guy gets up from the middle of the road and bravely starts shadow-boxing the other guy who, of course, is half way over the hill by now. I tried so many times to engage you in honest, fair debate and you refused, claiming, as you did last time, that there were two kinds of people in the world, the prickly ones, who went for that kind of stuff and the gooey ones, like you, who didn't. So now you return to say that the problem isn't that you're too gooey but that I was somehow unreasonable trying to talk with you at all in the first place! Shame on you, Dog. As I said before, you disgust me.

Subject: A simply great post of Livia's from LG From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:31:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just amazing reading excellent posts like this. Kind of addicting like doing crosswords or something, or popping bubble-pack. It's like the power of satsang, isn't it? The power of telling the truth, disentangling knots thrown at you. So yes, it's true. I'm addicted to premie arguments because without the bubble-pack there's nothing to pop. Anyway, enough about me. THIS is an excellent post: Hi Harry, thanks for taking the trouble to write such a long and well-considered post. I appreciate it. I originally said: “But one thing neither you or I or any of us have any proof of, is that that experience came by courtesy of Maharaji.” And you replied: 'Are you saying he just happened to be in the area, happened to be the only featured speaker at his gatherings from age 8 where throngs were magnetized to him, happened to be the one that you traveled all that distance to see, happened to be the guy that you felt a powerful pull and inexplicable love for, even sitting in some dingy English basement in Marigold Square or Squatney-on-Thames or Luton? Happened to be the guy that many thousands of every kind of person imaginable will tell you they had one of the, or many of the, peak experiences of their entire lives from the mere act of walking in front of/standing next to/bowing down to/being smiled at by? Do you really believe those are all random coincidence? Were they not perhaps clues that this bloke, in fact, is deeply connected to the same experience he (or his occasionally dubious representatives) were teaching?' No, of course I didn't just happen to be in the area. But are you suggesting that if you find yourself at a meeting addressed by an Indian speaker that you then fall in love with, and have a number of out-of-this-world experiences around, that this person necessarily and actually possesses the qualities imagined? Like many other premies, I was introduced to the whole thing by an acquaintance. My first impression, and I must stress that this was my very first impression was that my acquaintance had been brainwashed, and was in the grip of a personality cult. She was very persistent, however, and I was in the middle of a psychologically shaky period, as were many of us at that time. I was 21 and was experiencing a certain amount of existential-type confusion, as was pretty common for a young liberal-minded hippy who came of age in the 60's and then saw a lot of that 60's idealism beginning to fade in the early 70's. In the end, I was affected by the utter certainty that I felt around the premies. They were mostly doing a lot of meditation and were getting very high. Knowledge indeed became a carrot that I began to long for, helped along by the fact that I'd previously been reading a lot of books on Sufism and Zen and was beginning to formulate ideas of hidden spiritual truths. In those days Knowledge was portrayed as the hidden jewel within, the Knowledge of all Knowledges and the seed that would grow within you into a beautiful flower of love. After three weeks of intensive satsang, any doubts I had entertained about Maharaji and his wealth were put on the back burner. This was the period of suspension of disbelief, called 'preparing for Knowledge.' I can now see that this is the period without which you wouldn't necessarily go on to associate the experience with Maharaji himself. And it is simplistic in the extreme to imagine that if one has peak experiences around someone, that that person is necessarily what you imagine them to be. I have a friend who is a Sai Baba devotee. He has millions of devotees in India, so the number of Maharaji's devotees in effect proves nothing. His devotees also have 'peak experiences of their lives' around him, so those experiences may well be very much more associated with the experiencers' state of mind and abilities (and need) to project, than with heir master's actual qualities. Maharaji also has a certain amount of personal charisma, especially when on stage in front of huge numbers, or when amongst people who feel they love him. As a performer myself I have noticed people projecting certain qualities on me! (Weird but true.) It happens to every performer. I have sometimes found myself in bizarre situations with members of audiences coming up to talk to me after a performance, and then not being quite 'themselves', because they are projecting certain qualities onto me that I can assure you I don't possess! I only need to say something mildly amusing and they all burst out laughing as if I've just told the most hilarious joke. It leaves you feeling quite odd, I can assure you, and if you begin to believe any of what they're projecting on to you, you're in serious trouble. Luckily my friends and family always bring me quickly down to earth by reminding me of things like it's my turn to do the washing up, thereby immediately removing any signs of creeping grandeur. I used that example to demonstrate that I've experienced projection from both sides of the coin, and can see that many people (though not all) have this need to project. Some people even believe that the Queen of England possesses a magical quality, and if you see her in person, as I have, it's easy to see the feeling close to devotion that emanates from people in her presence. But I'd lay a bet that that feeling says an awful lot more about the powers of projection in the adoring crowd than her actual qualities. Now obviously the Queen of England doesn't teach a meditation that can make you high (and more). But what if she did? What if she taught a meditation the techniques of which were available in books? And she instructed her courtiers to show people how to practise this meditation on the condition that they kept those techniques secret? And if people then got high on the meditation, what would they then feel towards the Queen? I know you could say this is a silly hypothesis, but I'm using it to try to get you to see the very real possibilities in such a scenario. You mention yourself that Maharaji was born to this. He was seen as a master from the age of 8 and has been treated accordingly ever since. He expects nothing less, and this is understandable, bearing in mind what he has lived through, and with, all his life. You say that in your own experience he has shown himself to be nothing less than what you think him to be. But this has not been the experience of everyone who has spent time close to him. Bob Mishler, Mike Dettmers, Mike Donner and many others have also spent a lot of time with him, some of them living with him, and have decided that he is most emphatically, and sadly, not what they previously thought him to be. I don't know if you have actually lived with him, but it does sound as if not everyone who has spent time with him has come to the same conclusion as yourself. So in the final analysis, your own personal experience doesn't really prove anything, except that your own personal experience of him has been good. Many people have spent time in close proximity to Sai Baba and are convinced of his divinity. Others have also spent time in close proximity to him and experienced something very different. All this possibly says more about a person's own ability and need to see goodness in the person they have chosen to be their master. You say Maharaji 'enabled me' to experience Knowledge. This is true, but only in the sense that he gave Mahatama Ashokanand permission to reveal the techniques of meditation. I received those techniques and then had an experience, but where is the evidence that Maharaji 'enabled' me to have the experience in a sense greater than what I just outlined above? Of course, I believed that it was Maharaji 'enabling' me for years, but how can any of us really know that this is true other than through belief or faith? You say to you it's like family - I can see how you can feel that especially after decades of association. I have felt that too. The familarity with Maharaji's face certainly becomes enormous, when you have seen him over and over again and looked at his picture thousands of times. Hardly surprising that it feels like family! You say: 'Which trappings, words or interpretations have I leaned on so far in telling you how I feel about this? Or do you think they're so entrenched that I'm missing them? I said: “What I'm continually getting at is that it's all in the interpretation.' Yes, I do think you are leaning on the interpretation, (although perhaps not quite as much as some premies.) I do think however, that you are so entrenched as to miss what interpretation you are leaning on, as I was for 30 years. And I do think the interpretation that the experience happens because of Maharaji in some way, is an erroneous one. That's not to say that premies don't feel intense love for Maharaji - they obviously feel they do, although I would question how much one can truly love someone one's never actually met or spend much time with. Finally, you said: 'The pure feeling is important to me, as dumb as that may sound to those who’d like it to be dumb. The warmth, love and expansiveness the feeling generates is what’s important to me.' I'm certainly not going to argue with that. Anything that can help you to feel genuine warmth, love and expansiveness is a good thing. I would point out, though, that the vitriol with which some premies here argue that Maharaji is the source of that feeling cannot help but make me wonder exactly what is going on there. You are one of the people who feels (correct me if I'm wrong) that Maharaji has enabled you to feel that feeling. We differ in our interpretation of the source, but surely the fundamental thing is that one genuinely does feel warmth, clarity and all the other positive human values. In my view, the danger arises when one becomes fixed in the idea that there is only one possible source of that. Thanks for taking the trouble to plough through all that! Wishing you all the best Livia

Subject: Yes - great post.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:40:11 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Premies please read. So well said, Livia.

Subject: I liked it too From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:17:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a great post, and to me it brings to mind one of the fundamental holes in logic and reasoning that was a major drip for me through the years. It is this whole business of initiation, I mean besides 4 common garden variety meditation techniques, what did we really get in that knowledge session? The techniques were just bait, more importantly we were inducted into the secret society of premiedom now as full fledged keepers of the secrets and myths and initiation rituals. This action qualified us to now go forth and speak possessed with some sort of wisdom and clarity that a few hours prior to the knowledge session we did not have. It never made sense to me back in the days of Satsang, how the day before recieving knowledge an aspirant had no right or priviledge to speak out regarding his or her experience. Now the knowledge session and Presto! as if by magic the same schmuck that entered the k session miraculously emerges with this new found command of enlightenment via the Rawat method. I remember the big deal over the persons first giving satsang, the person who yesterday could not be trusted to put together two sentences regarding thier experience all of a sudden is now heralded as the new bearer of the secret message and is now entitled to wax elouquent about the experience. So on it goes, mostly what was said was the same things that were always said before. The point is, there was nothing really different about that person other than the acceptance of him into the fold by the other members and his willingness to be accepted. Therin was a big secret that no one talked about, as every one was sworn to secrecy about the initiation. We all held the rituals up as some magic event and joined in step with the rest of the group to make sure that the myths were supported, and that we were accepted as a likeminded supporter. It reminds me of when I joined a fraternal lodge a few years back, first we were introduced and sponsored by an existing member. Then we had to study up on the rules and rituals of the lodge. Then after a time we were initiated into the lodge, given the pin the secret hand shake and allowed to wear the funny little hat and dress wierd at the meetings. And this was it, the ritual, the initiation was the be all end all to the group, the initiation itself was the big secret, and what strikes me funny is that no one got to concerned over the fact that the secrets were not all that fullfilling. It has taken me a while but it becomes more and more obvious how the emotional pull of a group can affect so much one's perception of what ever that particular group stands for and cloud the reality of what is really going on. It is about becoming a part of something, belonging, the bond with the cult is the fact that they carry this big secret, the big one about the initiation ritual that hasn't delivered up to it's promise. But no one says so, in fact they pretend as if it was actually more than what it really is. This is as true today as it was back when the mahatma's were giving the k sessions. The secret is we pretend like the initiation has some paramount significance, then we ape and mimic the words and actions of those who came before us. And the more eloquent or theatrical or vocal we become about pertetrating the myth the higher up the pillar we advance within the group or cult. No one stood up in the knowledge session I attended and said, Hey, is this all there is? Where is the rest of it? This seems very different from what I have been hearing from these premies over the last few months. Now how is what you have just shown me really going to make a real difference in my life. The rub here is that one is supposed to buy into the ultimate significance of the experience or event, and make something more out of it that what it is. To me this is inauthentic behavior and it has been the underlying motivating energy of the cult since day one. This is basically true all group's, cults, movements whatever, they typically work on the same dynamic, and before you know after you have joined in it you have formed an alliance an emotional investment into the secret and off you go maybe never to return to your senses. I have wondered why more people in the cult weren't upset by these things or why we could never talk about such issues. The price paid for being in the cult or group is that one loses the ability to think for themselves. One will don a funny little fraternal lodge hat that no one in their right mind would be seen out in everyday public life with just to be accepted. One will believe and perpetrate the secrets and myths and get emotionally entangled in the dysfuntion and lies of the cult and cult leader just to be accepted. One will compromise thier own personal integrity and bite their own tongue and not ask even when they know deep down inside some questions need to be answered. Enslavement to this kind of compromise is no freedom, no way to live.

Subject: Absolutely fabulous, Brian From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:04:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was many months after I exed that the obviousness of the fact that the secret initiation is the most glaring proof that it is a cult. That ''dirty little secret'' is what kept me in captivity for nearly 28 years. (Okay, I'm a slow learner - but thorough.) I really had been completely fooled into thinking that it was a secret wisdom only to be shared with the true believers. The cult apologists like Mili and Pussy are currently putting a new spin on Rev Rawat: ''He's my friend. I never believed he was god. He's always just been my best buddy,'' etc. Fine. Okay. But, then, if it isn't a cult, how come these premies don't just show their friends and family the techs? Why do aspirants have to watch videos for 5 months minmum. It's a weird Hindu cult. It's just wonderful to see you posting here, Brian. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Hi Pat From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:33:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is nice to start feeling half human again, I went outside today and for the first time in what seems like ages I felt the sun on my face and listened to the birds singing the sweet song of spring. I just sat out there on my deck and reveled in the sheer joy of being alive then it hit me, alive and FREE, Free from the false beliefs and concepts entangled with some wierd cult and cult leader. Yeah, Life is truly great, and there is no reason to insert a slimy conman in between me and the experience It is always good to hear from you Pat

Subject: I once had a 30/70% chance... From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 23:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....and I took it. I never gave death a second thought after that and just knew that I'd win even if my odds were only 30%. Life was all that mattered. I know you're taking that chance now. I should have known the way Rev Rawat talked about death as some sort of threat or bummer that he was just another preacher-man making money out of primitive superstitious. Isn't it great to lose your religion and just be free? I pictured you on your patio and wished I was there to take a swim with you.

Subject: God, so well said! From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian, Hope you're feeling better and what a damn, well-said comment! The reason we could give satsang the moment we received Knowledge and not a moment before, as I understood it, was that, once we were premies, Maharaji could talk through us. No?

Subject: Re: God, so well said! From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:25:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He was supposedly talking through us. In the initial phase people still spoke in quite interesting ways about life and attributed it's highs to G. As ones involvement with the cult grew, the ability to communicate anything of any substance shrank by virtue of all thoughts having to pass throughthe washer. Ive. been thinking about this a lot in relation to people who although they were in the past lively and interesting, continued pranaming at the cheesy feet has shrunk them. The process of exing is turning out to be far more of a blast than 'practising ever was, simply because it's real.

Subject: Thanks Jim From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:20:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am feeling a little better but ny energy level comes and goes in spurts, so I have to use it sparingly. I was having a particularly good day made better by this post of Livia, so thanks for putting it up over here. I oontinue to read the forum regularly and sometimes when a great post like this comes along I can't resist contributing a comment. I'll give you a call in the next couple of days

Subject: Maharaji could talk through us - LOL From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:07:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Borg chip had been installed.

Subject: Re: Maharaji could talk through us - LOL From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:19:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji could talk through us? That explains why all my satsangs were about cars, blondes, and Peter Frampton!

Subject: Do you rememeber that sickly song From: Jethro To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Please let me know that it's you coming thru.....'...... I hated that song everytine heard it.

Subject: Thanks for that chuckle, Mickey. :P [nt] From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:34:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's a knee-slapper alright! From: Jim To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:28:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not typing, I'm just laughing into my keyboard. Peter Frampton indeed. But, seriously, that was most definitely the score, wasn't it? You meditate on the word and Maharaji talks through you? Kinda? Of course it was.

Subject: Re: That's a knee-slapper alright! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 17:36:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, from what I remember about satsang, it pretty much consisted of you doing pranam to that big honking picture of the Fat Kid (or maybe Peter Frampton) hanging over the fireplace mantel, falling onto a futon, exhaling a big sigh with a goofy grin on your face, closing your eyes for twenty seconds, then saying, 'This knowledge is so beautiful! Before I received Guru Maharaji's knowledge, I would get angry at any little thing, but now, I am so full of love that nothing gets me mad!' Then you might toss in some reference to some esoteric Buddhist text that you know no one in the room has read, then turn around and pranam that stupid picture again. But of course, this could not be done unless you had spent several hours in the dark with others suckers learning the secret techniques.

Subject: Re: A simply great post of Livia's from LG From: Brian To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:36:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Life's Simply Great From: Gregg To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:07:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on, Livia. Sometimes I wonder if I'd heard words like this back in the Seventies if it would have made any difference. This is really quite the crucial point. It seemed logical to assume that the various mystical experiences I had in Maharaji's presence or under his supposed omnipotent umbrella of grace were in fact due to his influence. Neither Maharaji nor his instuctors did very much to disabuse me of this notion, if you'll pardon the understatement. As your post makes clear, though, there are other perfectly reasonable explanations. The fact that many of those closest to him (Mishler, Dettmers et al) came to see him as something quite a bit less than The Superior Power in Person is certainly a key bit of evidence. It takes strange and baroque explanations involving the Dark Forces of the Mind to come up with anything but the obvious: that it is easier to imagine him as Divine from afar than it is to see him close up and still think him the Avatar of Kali Yuga. There may be a few exes who see him as an out-and-out con artist, but most of us see him as just another deluded human being, worse only in that his delusions require him to keep so many other humans deluded in order to maintain his grabby lifestyle. And if you think that he demands jets and mansions and yachts only to allow his followers the grace of being able to express gratitude...I've got some lovely oceanfront property in North Dakota to sell you. And I'll throw in a free bridge.

Subject: Definitely a ''BEST'' - brilliant From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:56:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm so glad your brought that over here as it deserves a place in the archives. Hey, Livia, I had QE11 darshan. I grew up singing God Save the Queen in a Brit colony. I was blissed out for weeks after seeing the Coronation movie in 53? My favorite toy was an ashtray with the golden carriage on it. I loved Queenie. Then I went to UK in 68 and one day saw QE11 as she drove to Westminster Abbey waving from her limo and I nearly swooned eventhough by that time I was a cynical communist. Darshan really is a matter of expectations and conditioning.

Subject: Re: your comments, Jim From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, thanks for your compliments about my LG post. I did my best but do feel I could have put it a bit more articulately - I'm ill today so not at my best, brainwise. Also, it's a bit annoying that they've got rid of the 'edit' facility over there - you can't go back and sort out those spelling mistakes and grammatical weirdities so irritating to a pedant like me. Anyway, top of the evening to you, Jim! Lots of love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Reflections on Harry From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 15:33:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv Funnily enough just as I was going home I saw your post on LG and dumped it and Harry's post to the printer and read both on the tube home. I think it is fair to say that Harry writes very clearly as well. My big takeaway from both posts was one of attibution - that is where does this experience come from? This was, for me, the biggie. For close on 30 years I attributed the experience to Maharaji and which stemmed from the deep imprinting and conditioning that took place in the period prior to receiving K and in the months after. An almost Pavlovian response. God knows how long the reversal of the Pavlovian response will take - 1999 was the starting gate for me and still counting. From the vantage point of having been around in premiedom for all of these years and now, I honestly see that the experience comes from my own expectations, grounding and inate human characteristic. To externalise that experience and believe that the experience is 'The Gift of The Master' creates a dynamic that, I believe, is ultimately destructive as it goes against the grain of our makeup. I am glad that Harry would appear to have made a great success in incorporating a healthy outlook to life and avoiding the flat-lining effect that many premies experience. Also I have no doubt that Maharaji, in close personal contact, (and I have had a few, not many)is witty, someone special and is someone that one can admire even taking into account the obvious projections that occur. I have met many people that have similar attributes (like your experience of QEII) but overiding this supposed 'specialness' of Maharaji is clear evidence of a lack of morals and ethics (the 14 epo points)on his part. In a way I am grateful to Maharaji for starting something which, frankly, I would not have liked to miss but see now that he continues to be affected by severe delusional thinking, but of a magnitude that I can't begin to comprehend. It is a great shame really, the destruction of the 70's dream was always going to be painful. But dream it always was. Like the Sai Baba dream. Waking up from that dream to the real reality actually, I find, is far far more enriching, more fullfilling and has a greater sense of purpose, with a deeper sense of clarity. warmly, Thorin, late at nite and feeling maudlin

Subject: See Anth's 'Belief & Experience' thread [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:51:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You did just fine... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I respect your courage for even posting over there. I've just about stopped because I get spammed and I don't like spam. I noticed your post to Deborah, too. Another good one. I'm envious of your clear and articulate writing style. Sometimes I can write well and lately I feel like every sentence is a struggle. You have a way of seeing both perspectives. I enjoy that, too, Liv. Well, I was going to start a new thread, but I may as well dust this off and link it up again. This is from the reFocus anti-cult help website. This one's called Characteristics of a Distructive Cult. I'm bringing this up again because charisma played and continues to play a huge role in getting people hooked into the cult and keeping them there. I was going to link to the book Snapping by Flo Conway but I've done that too many times already. ***(Jim have you read it yet, and if so, what do you think?) Thanks again, Livia, for your clear voice. Love, Cynthia, where it's going to snow and that's not usual or okay on May 14th!!!:( P.S. Proof I'm in the clouds is that I've edited this about five times due to typos and other errors! Characteristics of a Destructive Cult www.refocus.org/charcult.html

Subject: Howdy From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:54:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynth, You know, I never did read 'Snapping' although I've known about it and have maybe even skimmed through it somewhere along the line. Sometimes, I hate to say it, but some of the cult books just seem kind of obvious, especially for we who actually underwent the whole cult experience. But I hasten to add that 'Snapping' was always reccommended, by people whose opinion I respect, such that I bet it well might be worth reading. Should I? As for your writing, well, Cynth, while it's true that Livia's clear as a bell, so are you in your own special way. It's like we're all different colours of the rainbow or flowers in the garden. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? Every snowflake is unique. Not a breath moves without His will. It's the person inside that really matters, not how you look or how much money you have or how nice you are even. It doesn't matter if you're a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. It's the person inside that counts. Even if, say, you got Alzhimer's and lost your mind completely, what really counts is your heart. And, seeing as all hearts are one there isn't really anything to worry about anyway, now is there? Life is a song and I'm gonna sing it. Peach? :)

Subject: Re: Howdy? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:27:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynth, You know, I never did read 'Snapping' although I've known about it and have maybe even skimmed through it somewhere along the line. Sometimes, I hate to say it, but some of the cult books just seem kind of obvious, especially for we who actually underwent the whole cult experience. But I hasten to add that 'Snapping' was always reccommended, by people whose opinion I respect, such that I bet it well might be worth reading. Should I? As for your writing, well, Cynth, while it's true that Livia's clear as a bell, so are you in your own special way. It's like we're all different colours of the rainbow or flowers in the garden. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same? Every snowflake is unique. Not a breath moves without His will. It's the person inside that really matters, not how you look or how much money you have or how nice you are even. It doesn't matter if you're a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. It's the person inside that counts. Even if, say, you got Alzhimer's and lost your mind completely, what really counts is your heart. And, seeing as all hearts are one there isn't really anything to worry about anyway, now is there? Life is a song and I'm gonna sing it. Peach? :) --- Hi Cynthia, I wouldn't worry too much about Jim's reply. What he really meant to say is: 'Wouldn’t it be funny if we didn't have our own special way, and we were all the same? Wouldn’t that be exciting? Being all the same and all. And wouldn’t it be funny if it was the person outside that really mattered. And everything depended on appearances and how much money you had, and everyone could be a total jerk. And wouldn’t it be funny if the person you are inside had nothing to do with your being a good person or a bad person, or what kind of personality or character you have. We could even kill people with Alzheimer’s because they don’t count. What really counts is your mind. And seeing as all minds are different, there really is a lot to worry about, isn’t there? Life is a brutal struggle and I'm gonna defeat you. Peach?' Just trying to help out.

Subject: I'm not worried about Jim, Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 15:11:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Deputy Dog, Jim didn't offend me. I understand his humor. It's not easy in this format, but not to worry, Dog. Jim and I know and understand eachother enough to know the difference between insult and humour. There were a couple of inside jokes you wouldn't get, too, so you be well, and I'm doing just fine. Cynthia

Subject: you're weird, dog From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:36:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know quite what to make of you. I might have to start charging you by the word...

Subject: Lighten up, Dog From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:31:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know that advice you gave when you mislead Pat by saying that you weren't really referring to anyone or thing in particular with your 'The Onion' post above? You said: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out! Don't be such a flaming hypocrite.

Subject: MISLED? Dep told an outright lie. [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hm, not quite From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:53:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First he asked who the satirical article about the trivia bully reminded anyone of (implying, of course, that he had someone in mind). Then, you asked him what his point was at which point he replied: What makes you think I posted this for anything other than a good laugh at human foibles? The Onion is just a good laugh. PatC, you need to turn off your 'meaning machine.' Mellow out! So he never really answered you although he's obviously playing the duck. God, we've been seeing a lot of this around here. Is it duck season or something? DOG -- who were you referring to and why?

Subject: Fair enough - it was slap and duck [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:36:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Howdy From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:04:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Ya, I Peach, all right. Hey, I've been meaning to apologize for the 'stop, don't stop' post on AG. In my own gullible style I didn't think about how it would look. Tell Laurie I say hi!:):) You got one thing in your post to me wrong: it's within inside Jim, can't you remember anything? :)

Subject: Re: a must-read link, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, we're online simultaneously again I see! That was a great link - the parallels are startling. I especially liked the 'need of the young for simple explanations' part. In fact all of it was brilliant, though I suppose if we'd read it back then we'd have thought it was deluded nonsense. Although it would be interesting to show it to a current premie and ask them for their response, I expect they'd be unable to see the parallels, any more than one can see the negative sides to the character of someone one's infatuated with. BTW Cynthia, for heaven's sake don't have any doubts about the quality of your writing. I have never known you to be anything less than wonderfully clear and articulate, and I always love reading your posts. You're a force to be reckoned with, and you'd better believe it! Lots of love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Re: a must-read link, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:22:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I'm not really worried about my writing. It's hit or miss with me. I noticed you got a reply 'over there.' All I can do is advise you to be careful. I like to keep as many of the anti-cult websites bookmarked. I see them here or find them online then I can just retrieve them as they seem appropriate to a conversation here. I've read a lot of them and for some people who haven't it can be a help. Rick Ross's website is quite good. It's up-to-date and has a lot of links as well as info on specific groups and cults. Love to you too, Cynthia

Subject: Living perfect master lives in Nigeria! From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 07:45:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Think this may have come up before. There is a Nigerian fellow who styles himself Guru Maharaj Ji and is the Living Perfect Master. He went to India in the 70's and, from what I remember, actually took Knowledge from one of the Mahatmas of you-know-who. Anyway he went back to Nigeria, presumably fully realized Knowledge and declared himself Satguru. Since then he has built a 'loyal' following in Nigeria but has on occasion run foul of the law in Nigeria (such as it is!). Catch up with his latest exploits below. Actually this reminds me I seem to remember there was a premie living in Bristol (UK) who also set himself up as a Guru (revealing the Rawat techniques etc) and which required some Elan Vital honchos (Glen?) visting the guy in Bristol and giving him a 'talk'. Anyone remember this episode? Late 70's/ early 80's? Here is the Nigerian stuff. Travails of the Living Perfect Master. 1,105 words 6 May 2002 03:25 pm Africa News Service English (c) Distributed via COMTEX News. Lagos, May 06, 2002 (This Day/All Africa Global Media via COMTEX) - A worried Guru Maharaj ji laments attempts to destroy him Satguru Maharaj ji, the self-professed Living Perfect Master, is not new to controversies. Since he started his One Love Family in Iju, a surburb of Lagos, in 1984, he and the movement have been through one controversy or the other. Reasons for that are not far-fetched. Maharaj ji, an indigene of Oyo State and a staff of the Nigeria Airways untll he travelld to india in the late 1970s, returned and declared himself 'God' to the amazement of all, including his peers. He had declared that he was God, claiming that he had taken the form of body and flesh to dwell among men. According to him, he has come to give knowledge to those thirsting for it. In giving this knowledge, he attempts to change the status quo. For instance, the Holy Bible teaches that God's abode is heaven. And that all prayers, requests and praises were made to him alone. But Guru's teachings are to the contrary. To his followers, God is no longer in heaven but in the Satguru Maharaj Ji Village, Kilometre 10, Ibadan-Lagos Expressway, Ibadan. The village, to them, is the highest spiritual Centre of the Universe. Impliedly, God is a Nigerian, he lives among them. This explains, why his followers don't waste time praying to the 'unseen God'. They direct all their prayers to Satguru Maharaj ji, the 'God' they can see and feel. Many, especially, Christians, see this as blasphemy. In many Churches, prayers are incomplete without the 'binding and casting of guru, his agents' and followers. But he has remained undeterred. The State has not spared him either. When General Musa Bamaiyi (Rtd), assumed the leadership of the National Drug Law Enforcement Agency (NDLEA) during the Abacha era, security operatives became regular guests at the Maharaj Ji village. He had a rough time in the hands of Bamaiyi's men, who severally accused him of dealing in hard drugs, among others. 'It is on the record of the Nigerian authorities, including security agents, NDLEA, the Courts and others, that Satguru Maharaj Ji has been investigated since 1989 and cleared of all such dubious, criminal, junk and trumped-up charges. Among them is the celebrated and cooked-up murder case, which lasted from July 6, 1999, to July 25, 2000, when I was discharged and acquitted by an Ikeja High Court, Lagos State', he recalled. Of course, some of his travails are traceable to repentant followers, who allegedly flee the village only to rebel against some of the activities of the religious sect. 'Somebody did it before and was jailed because he said that somebody sent him to do that', Maharaj ji said, not giving the name of the person. At a media briefing in the village last week Tuesday, he, specifically tried to debunk allegations reportedly made by one Mr. Steve Alachenu, a former devotee and member of the One Love Family. Alachenu, who was quoted in an exclusive interview in the New Treasure Magazine, captioned, 'My untold Story in Guru's Den', naratted how his friend, Segun, from Ogbomoso, Oyo State, facilitated his membership of the religious sect. He also revealed the dehumanising and harrowing process of initiation, which, he claimed always end in the death of some of them. 'In my own time, we were 73 in number, 33 males, 40 females. I think, about four of them were pregnant. During the process, all of us were completely naked-both males and females, young and old. No pant, no underwear, no bra, everybody were completely naked', Alachenu allegedly told the New Treasure in its special anniversary edition of April 29, 2002. 'Yes, people died during the fire-house initiation. We were 73 in number but at the end of the initiation, we were remaining 68, two men died while one lady died. Out of the four pregnant women, two died. In most cases, when somebody dies there, they cut open his chest, remove the heart, the liver and kidney. They use it to prepare concoction and people drink it during the initiations and you will not know what you are drinking', Alachenu continued. A bitter Maharajji, dismissing the claims last Tuesday, said since members of the One Love Family don' t eat meat, the allegation was untrue. 'We don't eat meat in this place. We are vegetarians, so, his claims are baseless', he said. But from close observation of him on Tuesday, as baseless and untrue these allegations may seem to Satguru, not even the allegation of the killing of a Ghanaian, which led to his incarceration in Ikoyi prison, for several months, appears to have disturbed him as the Alachenu's allegation. 'I am deeply crying in my heart', he told journalists at the press conference. He described Alachenu as a faceless liar hired to cause disaffection among members of the public and the One Love Family. The recent onslaught on his person and his group, he said, was the handiwork of those he described as forces of darkness in the religious groups, serving as stooges of Western imperialists, particularly the American CIA and their European counterparts, who he argued, were displeased with the progress Nigeria was making. While claiming that the One Love Family does not know Alachenu, he wondered why he failed to give Segun's surname and waited for six years after his purported death before opening up on it. Beyond Alachenu and the New Treasure's story, Maharajji said he has changed the lives of so many people, including, politicians, businessmen, kings and other citizens in Nigeria and beyond. 'It is our belief that the publishers of the damned edition of the New Treasure are paid agents of some faceless secret organisations, like the American CIA and others like them, masquerading as religious and political groups in Nigeria, in their calculated misadventure to rob Nigerians, Africans and indeed, the human race of this special grace', he said. He called on the Inpector-General of police, Mr. Tarfa Balogun, Lagos and Benue States Commissioners of Police to, as a matter of urgency, and in the interest of fair play and justice, arrest the acting editor of the New Treasure, Sonde Abbah, the reporter, Ganiyu Olowu, who purportedly wrote the story, and Mr. Steve Alachenu and conduct a thorough investigation into the matter to get to the root of it all. by Chris Anucha Copyright This Day. Distributed by All Africa Global Media(AllAfrica.com)

Subject: His followers turned up here 3/4 years ago From: hamzen To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 01:59:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of them were here about 98/9. It blew their minds because he'd based his whole set-up on gmj. But what I found fascinating was their descriptions of their darshan and meditation experiences. They were very strong, but were under the illusion that only followers of THEIR guru maharaji could experience the grace and bliss at the level they did. Ha ha, we human beings are certainly bloody naive.

Subject: Naivity From: Thorin To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 02:30:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hamzen Thanks for that. You said: Ha ha, we human beings are certainly bloody naive Too true, and I count myself very much in that mould. Still making the break. Thing is of course how much other naivity we have? Political liberalism perhaps? No, lets not go down that road! I have a friend who is very much part of some Jesus Christ evangelicalism movement (can't remember which) that takes a very literal interpretation of the bible. It is astonishing how much she believes, for example, in creatism (sp?) and the inferiority of females. Perhaps I ought to send her a copy of The Blind Watchmaker as Jim did for DepDog? :) warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Living perfect master lives in Nigeria! From: Dave Punshon To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 00:56:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another Guru Asshole (NT)

Subject: The guy in Bristol was called From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:20:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The guy in Bristol was called From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:55:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro Your post contained no text. In any event in response to my above post someone rang me and filled me in with some details on the guy from Bristol. His name was Rupert and apparently received quite a following as he presented himself as properly understanding what Rawat was all about. At one point, I understand, he tried to storm the residence at Reigate as he felt that DLM/Elan Vital and various individuals were somehow preventing the true premies having access to Maharaji. (little did he realise that it was Maharaji himself that did not want access to the ordinary premies!). Even though Rupert saw himself as somehow superior to other premies (and hence his followers) he considered Maharaji a 'superior person'. Rupert spent some time camped out in Wales with his merry band of followers. Wales was (still is?) a favourite haunt of premies as it apparently contains a significant degree of mystical qualities (ley lines etc). Anyway it all ended sadly with Rupert being hauled up on some legal charge or another. So, all in all, those times were ripe for a great amount of delusional and cultish thinking where anybody could set themselves up as Guru's and whatnot. No doubt prompted by the nihilistic attitude prevalenat within DLM/EV/GMJ. This nihilistic attitude still continues imo. Another example that EV had to content with was some of the German pwks embracing Gurdjieff and hi-jacking of satsang programs. Thorin

Subject: We're a mystical lot in Wales From: Kelly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:45:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin and Jethro, It is a very misty country! and I'm sure there are hundreds of premies, post premies, former premies and ex-premies lurking in the hills. In the days when I was a semi-active Welsh premie, we would hold video events for the three of us! occasionally we would make contact with another real live premie who would appear from nowhere and just as mysteriously disappear back into the mist, never to be seen again! It's a wild and wonderful country full of mystics, misfits and eccentrics and, of course, the Welsh. Even Jethro nearly moved here a little while ago, we were going to be neighbours, what happenned? was it something I said? Thorin, I must thank you for your excellent definition of entropy in the cult scenario, in a thread way down below. I'm a very sporadic visitor to the forum at the moment and did not manage to get online for some time after your post. Anyway thanks, I enjoyed it. Kelly

Subject: Re: We're a mystical lot in Wales From: Thorin To: Kelly Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Kelly You're a Welsh inhabitant huh? I always had you down as a west country lass. Oh well! So how is the ex-premie community going in Wales? I hear it is going from strength to strength. You Welsh people were always so flaky. lol :) No seriously - never doubt the purity of the master and all that stuff. bests, Thorin - after a few glasses of vino

Subject: Don't know what happened From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:46:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I knew Rupert in Bristol before he did whatever he did. He was a nice guy, as I remember, who was also an excellent cook. I also remember at some programs where security people were really upset because 'Rupert' was outside. I thought it really funny at the time. I also heard that Rupert used to give darshan and often collapse. No idea if this happenedor not. cheers Jethro

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: PatD To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:19:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin & Jethro I came across this guy once, & posted about how he'd kindly offered to have me thrown out of a 1st floor window by his 10 member harem. How he became deranged I have no idea. I believe he was an economic journalist before k. I heard several stories about his exploits,all completely outrageous(the exploits that is,I believe the story tellers),but I won't repeat them in public just in case he's come back to his senses,& is feeling in a mood for litigation. Who drew up the bongo list & what did you have to do to get on it? There's an interesting little cult backwater.

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi PatD Harem? What are you suggesting?! Yes I know what you mean about having moods of litigation. Being hauled up 'for some charge or another' seems to be a pointer. :) What did you do to get threatened of getting thrown out of 1st floor window? Very interesting. Yeah I certainly knew a lot of bongo's - some of which were honchos in the mission. I made a lot of effort not getting on such lists - I simply hate being a number. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: PatD To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What did you do to get threatened of getting thrown out of 1st floor window? Nothing...that's the point,the guy was certifiable. I'd gone to Bristol to visit someone else, & ended up waiting for him to show in Rupert's company. He was pleasant to start with & then asked me if I could see the green light emanating from GMJ's eyes in the picture on the wall. When I said no,the atmosphere began to change. His girls were mainly teenagers,sitting in silence around the large room we were in,listening to our conversation,but not joining in.Fetching cups of tea,changing the records etc,but never off their own bat,always at his command.The only men in the room he & I.I managed to get out of there before he got round to offering me one,a nasty little mindfuck he pulled on someone else I knew. A touch of the Mansons;you bet. A dash of Rasputin;no doubt about it. The big joke of course was that I was in a cult myself at the time but didn't realise.

Subject: Re: Don't know what happened From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 06:45:49 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.co.uk Message: PatD Bewildering story indeed about Rupert. Glad you got away in one piece. You raise an interesting point about cults within cults. Was speaking with an old friend (he left the mission about 20 years ago) and he was talking about the various factions that existed within the mission and in particular factions that organised themselves around various members of the 'Family' (eg BBJ, Raja Ji, Mata Ji etc) and how competitive these factions were against each other. Each faction, it seems, had their own dynamic (sheesh I seem to be using that word often these days!)and belief systems. Also, it seems, there were other factions centered around some 'high up' Western honchos. All these factions went pear shaped when the family breakup occurred what with M marrying Marolyn. An interesting history. Would love to throw some more light on these times - particularly the various Indian events in the period following the DLM/EV split. Maybe I should send an email to Prem Rawat and ask him for clarification - to set the record straight as it were. I am sure that the he would like the pwks to hear his side of the story. :) PatD, as we on the subject of history, do you have any details on what happened at the Portsmouth ashram in the late 70's/early 80's which required various EV honchos getting down there fast to sort out a big mess? Maybe just rumours and nothing of substance. warmly, Thorin

Subject: PPR opening sequence! From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 06:19:19 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: This is probably old hat, but Ive only just seen the opening graphics. I presume Prem took advice from real people before he okayed it, but to me, an unbeliever, it reads hilariously as follows. M in the middle, looking a lot like Alfred E. Neuman, of Mad magazine fame, fixed grin staring outwards at we know not what. What's he smiling at? Attention is drawn left and then right to 'sensitive' pictures of people looking appealingly At M. These pictures are very 'human' and mix into each other giving the effect that they are somehow 'live' and very active. M, meanwhile, continues to stare resolutely ahead, inanely grinning. The sequence builds up rhythmically. The question the sequence progressively arouses in me is: 'Well when is the frozen grinning man going to respond to all this human attention coming from either side of him?' And the answer comes: he never does! He totally ignores the lot of them. They fade away leaving him alone with his cheshire cat grin. The message seems to be: no matter how much human attention is focused on the grinning man, he couldn't give a monkeys, and they can all push off as far as he is concerned. The fool on the hill or what? Was this the intention I ask myself? I laughed, and I know many others who would too. Love Bryn

Subject: Re: PPR opening sequence! From: Jim To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's quite a nice take on that, Bryn. No, I don't think anyone else has said anything like it. Thanks.

Subject: Want to see something funny? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:56:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over in the monkey cage, Deborah, in a spiralling decent of denial and / or madness, accused me of lying about her threat to have Pat killed. So I asked a simple question: who do you believe, her or me? I'll tell you right now, I'm not lying. I could explain more, more, more but that's the bottom line. Anyway, for anyone wanting to see the monkeys go nuts, it's all over there. Hilarious? Pathetic? Hell, I don't know. Do you? :)

Subject: Jim, problem here From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:35:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My take. No, I'm not going over to Life's Grate. Makes me ill to tell you the truth. Why you transcend there is your game. Frankly, I think you get alot of laughs for yourself and it is probably more than that as well. Whatever. I don't/am not asking for an explanation. What I originally wanted to ask was, have you ever seen the movie 'Fatal Attraction?' If not, rent it and take a gander. In short, it's apparent to me from what Debra has posted here to you on the forum, in the not too distant past, and her current gyrational dance on LG towards you she's in love with you. But it's a problem because you are dealing with a somewhat unbalanced and obviously vindicitve mind. She's quite angry. Not only with M but with alot of things. You for starters. You might have made a mistake in befriending her. She's quite fond of you, that much is obvious. The fact that she can't have you infuriates her. In her mind, you lead her on. It was Deborah's expectation that after you met her (at your place may I add) and chatting away on the forum with clever posts, you would fall in love with her and dump Laurie. This might become a problem for you, I don't know, I sure hope not. I guess it already has, judging from what you started this thread with. I warn my son all the time about women such as Deborah. Bill Clinton was smart, he never gave Monica the chance to become impregnated although that was exactly what she was after. Deborah is of that mind set. She's got to have you, you owe her because you lead her on and since you're not cooperating, well she's justified in doing whatever to make your life hell. Good luck Jim. If you remember or see the movie, Fatal Attraction, pay close attention to the character Glenn Close portrays. That, my dear, is what I think you have gotten yourself into. Hell, you might be after me if you were a 40 something, college student, waitng to make your way and you met me; an attractive, successful, accessable, educated, strong, not married woman who extended a kindness. In other words, you're a good catch Jim and time is running out for her. All's fair in love and war. There's more to that saying that meets the mind. Just my take from reading here for awhile and the ganders I've taken at Life's Fucking Wonderful because of Maharaji. I hope I'm dead wrong. I personally don't have anything against Deborah. Never had a hard word with her but........always thought there was something not quite right with her. Fondly, Tonette I'm going to show up at your door, in the middle of the night, naked, and demand that you rape me! And dammit if you don't play out my fantasy, there will be hell to pay! Know what I mean?

Subject: You just do that From: Jim To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:41:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm going to show up at your door, in the middle of the night, naked, and demand that you rape me! And I, Tonette, must now report you to the police. Of course, they're going to want pictures. RELEVANT pictures, sweetie. Come now. :) Anyway, I don't know about your theory but I do suspect that Deb's going to be taking the high road and not stooping so low as to mix it up with us cult-members too much more. For as she most astutely noted with respect to Livia, Indoctrination and Loyalty 'Transference' are powerful tools. Unforutunately Livia is getting the answers to some things and falling squarely into the Heller's self-serving trap. She doesn't understand that with her realizations from the forum (which are overdue) come with a hitch. All one has to do is look at how hard J, P, and G work to hide their dirty laundry. Livia made herself quite clear that she is not ready to be displaced from her new nest. Let them feed her a few more poison worms and she'll leave or throw up. Either way, I think her hypocritical posts at F-VII speak volumes about her intentions. It's just better to avoid as much contact with the exes as possible. They can't see that their agenda is just that, 'their agenda'. And the fact that they stoop so low is a good reason not to have anything to do with them. That's not normal behaviour for any reasonable person under any conditions. cheers, deborah, who is so glad she has the intellectual tools to see through crap Good for her that she saw through our dirty tricks sooner rather than later. I'm impressed.

Subject: Indoctrination and Loyalty 'Transference' From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:39:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I just loved the way that Mili nodded and drooled in agreement. Talk about having a HUGE BLIND SPOT. Chronic irony deficiency.

Subject: Tell-tale sign of something-or-other From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:09:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's most telling about this is that Deborah as recently as a couple of days ago was complimenting Livia on her fair mind and clear head. But the moment she doesn't hear what she wants to hear, she forgets all that and dismisses Livia's opinion as worthless. Now we've all had people we thought were on side with us break ranks, disagree unexpectedly, all of that. But healthy people try to see why that is and discuss the differences, try to make some sense of the changing picture without radically ignoring everything they themselves have said or done just before. People who can't do that have some sort of problem. Anyway, more pitiable than anything else, isn't it?

Subject: But this takes the cake From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 20:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She sucks up to Andrew (Roupell's latest fake persona) thus: I fail to see a problem here. Everyone knew that remember 'holy name' was the third technique. To me, it is extremely evident that always remember 'Holy Name' was a confusion for some. But how could it be. To practice meditation was to know that the third technique aka 'Holy Name' was just the beauty and rich experience of the pulse that runs through your being. Why wouldn't anyone not want to feel that and surrender to that river all day long. When I am in my mind aka ego, I am tense and unaware how perfect and all knowing that universal flow is. When I allow myself to remember 'Holy Name' aka third technique (which I never disqualified for good reasons), the things I need to survive along with surplus comes to me. This is so remedial I am beside myself. I understand some of the issues of the exes but that question/statement is kind of remedial. It is clearly evident that many exes were premies who maintained all kinds of ideas and concepts that so many of us would never entertain. Why is that the exes decide to ask these pertinent questions after bashing M & K for so many years. And as for Gerry, he went to Millenium and decided it wasn't for him. Doesn't it make sense that he would be the FA of the ex-premie forum? Andrew, many of the exes clearly have issues that never did have anything to do with M or K. That's a fact. cheers, deborah, who strongly believes F-VII is a hate and anger site is for individual cults On her way back to the lotus feet? I hope so. I can't think of a more fitting fate - for both. It makes less sense than anything I've heard LOTU say.

Subject: Re: Jim, problem here From: Livia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:16:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Tonette, you're going to get some utterly rampant denials of what you just suggested above! Because if it's not true, Deborah will be incensed that you could suggest such a thing, and if there's a grain of truth in it, she'll probably be in total denial, which will also lead to her being utterly incensed. The result will be an even angrier Deborah. Oh well, don't say I didn't warn you! Love to you, Liv XX

Subject: Of course, I would expect no less From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And yes, she'll deny my gist on the matter presented. I suppose I could dig thru the archives and post some of her dialogue to Jim but that would be cheap and too time consuming. It's there if anyone really cares to go fishing. But my post is not at Life's Fucking Wonderful and Isn't Maharaji Great. Those who need to reply to it can rant away. I doubt if I'll give much concern. My post was to Jim, for Jim, my opinion. Just that. My opinion. To Jim. Everyone else can go to hell. I don't mean you, please I don't. What I'm trying to say is, I don't care if people disagree with me. Save your typing fingers please! Type away if you must but don't waste too much energy. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Of course, I would expect no less From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, I think you're on to something. But Livia is right, that puts you smack on the top of her hate list. Btw, I know you don't care if you're on the shitlist. I'm an honorary member. I'm trying to ignore them, actually... How are you? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Want to see something funny? From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:38:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I just read through the locked thread. I agree with Pat, don't take the bait. After her weeks of irrational shouting, naming calling, scheming and planning (with a small break) Deborah is at it again, trying to endear anyone to her regardless of what's true. The reason I never post to Deborah or respond to her since the first great 'blow-up' is because I do believe you. I think she could be dangerous. I don't understand what she means by saying things like: I have to document everything posted because now I have to file a lawsuit! She has others looking through the forum archives searching for god knows what. But the bottom line is she's set a precedent by making a death threat, not online, but to you, a lawyer, and on the phone. You know her in person--if she's that volatile, do you want to engage? I'm not writing this to smear her. It's impossible to reason with her. I've tried to reason with her, as have many others from F7. She's been successful in forming a faction and in so doing has taken all of those former posters out of F7. That suits me quite well. Up to that point there was a lot of infighting here and I'm glad it's gone. As far as the death threat is concerned I believe you because I have witnessed how far off the deep end Deborah can go with her confused perception of herself and the world (including the cyberworld). She holds grudges and courts revenge. Me? I'm staying the fuck away from her. Where the rubber meets the road, you have two witnesses of your phone conversation. Can you and Pat get restraining orders against her? I would consider it. It's frightening to know she lives near you and not so far away from Pat, too. Jim, trying to reason with the LG and AG folks is fruitless (about just about anything) and they probably love it when you show up there--they get a free battering ram. That's where I am at this point. Only concerned for you, Pat, and anyone else who's life has been threatened. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I just read thru From: Jethro To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 06:12:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THAT (now closed) thread on LG. I seems that you have a devotee in Mili who suggests that everyone say 'fuck you' to you every morning. It seems you have supereceeded practice of the within-inside techniques. If you're lucky maybe he'll send you a video of himself, catcoward, rancid-chip-oil roupell all lined up saying 'fuck you'.....you know like GuruMaharaji...I mean Maharaji....eeer I mean Prem did in Penang. regards Jethro

Subject: Don't take the bait, please From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember the kind of person who killed Selena, the popstar. I saw a documentary interviewing her tonight and she looks and sounds completely sane until she says things like: ''But Selena wanted that. That's what she expected from me. She asked for it. She made me do it.'' All said with a cheery smile and a twinkle in her eye. Quite chilling. It might be time to cool it, ignore it and hope that it finds someone else to stalk. And keep a paper trail such as a copy of Catweasel's post (''Her only mistake was not threatening the same for you.'') Well, according to Scott, at least they won't use nerve gas on subways while they vent their spleen on the net. :C)

Subject: Is IRONY lost on you? From: Lose Something?;) To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:22:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't like it Thelma? Oh well here it is again. You cannot be serious. Get this thing above Grade School histrionics!

Subject: Irony is subtle, Catweasel From: PatC To: Lose Something?;) Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It would be lost on you. You're more given to threatening to beat Jim's brains out with a baseball bat or, as in this case, wishing that Deb had threatened to have Jim killed rather than me. Boy, am I glad that she's finally found her real milieu among you deranged cultweasels of LG. You are welcome to each other.

Subject: Yes and Subtle is in the eye of the beholder. From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:48:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on Pat.That's just ()) spin. You know darn well no-one is in imminent danger or was actually (read genuinely) threatened. What you are doing here could be viewed as dangerous and inciting. But it's not.It's just pathetic and very Queenie Thelma.

Subject: Ah! The spin doctor is in From: PatC To: Catweasel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:09:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I understand, Pussy. You didn't mean to threaten to smash Jim's brains out with a baseball bat and Deb didn't mean to say that she would have me killed. That's MUCH better. Now we can all heave a sigh of relief. Obviously, you're no real threat and just have a big ugly mean mouth but Deb does live near Jim and is definitely um er well.....warped? (I get this picture of Glen Close leaping up after supposedly being dispatched - not once but several times.) Of course it suits you that you now have another person on board at LG who hates F7 but don't let it blind you to some very obvious insanity or do you enjoy being King of Hearts over on Life is a Great Big Loony Bin?

Subject: Geez, hello Deborah or Selene . From: Tonette To: Lose Something?;) Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:41:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, you can use your real name. No harm in that, eh? Most trolls are stupid and have nothing to say, that is exactly what your post makes you look like. Tonette

Subject: Re: Geez, hello Deborah or Selene . From: Catweasel To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 13:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat knew who it was from.And it was mean't for him. Ciao

Subject: Rep. Peter King on accountability.... From: Jim S. To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:40:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I watched House Rep. Peter King (a moderate Republican from NY)on Hardball tonight, he talked about the current pedophile scandals in the Catholic Church, and the outrage amongst rank and file Catholics in his district. He recounted how so many people he knew grew up Catholic and had complete faith in the Church and the system it represented... Although they knew that none of the priests were perfect, they totally believed that they were holy, and holier than they were. King talked of the outrage that people are now feeling as they realize that so many of these guys were not preacticing what they preached. While they condemned others for even thinking about certain things, they themselves were performing incredible crimes against little kids. The complete hypocrisy of their actions is what has so many people upset. Their outrage is compounded with the recent stand of the church to lash out at critics and play hardball with them, rather than level with them and talk honestly about the situation. King predicted that if the church did not take a different tack, make amends, and behave like the institution it is supposed to be, that it will suffer irreperable harm, and will never fully recover... I couldn't help but see the parallels with m and the people around him..... For me, it was a similar thing....the absolute lies and hypocrisies coming from m, with no intention of talking honestly about any of it, that pushed me over the edge... However, it was his lying and hypocritical behavior that finally allowed me to wake up, leave and get free.... One of my main questions is how long can premies see the handwriting on the wall and pretend that it's just not there? And how long can m pretend that it's not there as well, or blame it all on others? This stuff eventually sinks in...

Subject: That's a hard question From: Tonette To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:11:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know I've really wondered about this aspect of Premies and M. At what point does the blatent facts, actions, history of M and EV finally sink in? Why is it so hard to put two and two together? Regardless of whether a premie knows about Jagdeo, the drinking, the whoring, the money, ect., just the revisionism should set any sane's person's wheels spinning! We are not talking about bad, stupid, losers here. Well some, but the premies I know are not total outcasts. They still function, work, love. They don't turn a blind eye to everything but Maharaji and yet they still believe. I think that's it, so ingrained, like saying sugar's sweet. A belief. If you hear something over and over and over again you will consider, at least explore and woe to those that subscribe, take ownership. A theory, a hope, a belief then occupies a prominent place in your heart and mind. One invests much time and energy in making it so, in cementing and giving crediabilty to the effort. How can you ever let go? Morals, ethics, logic and feeling. Which of the four previous subjective components has the most influence? I would say feelings. Feelings is by far the worst choice but generally that is how we like to function given the chance. I've seen it first hand and here on the forum. Premies state, 'To hell with you belligerant ex's, the consquences of what knowledge has done to many people, I don't care if Maharaji is nor will I consider him a cancerous growth on my soul, I don't care if he lies, I don't care if Knowledge is just 4 warmed-over Meditation techniques, it works for me. So shut up! I feel something so therefore I give it validity.' Feelings. Some thinking okay but don't go too far. Just the experience. That's what real. That's what I am. Spiritual. Energy. And I am here for 'the experience.' It's a 100% bullshit belief but so many people fall prey to it. Not just in Maharaji's world but many other similar cults and well established ones too. Catholics are similar, shit they believe the Pope is a 'holy man,' divine. But at least the Catholics do some good works like feeding children and such, even if they are actively recruiting members while doing so and their PAM's like to bugger little boys. Good grief, it's a variation on a theme here. Little boys or little girls. What is this cult's dirty little secret? There's nothing unemotional about Prem and his 'self knowledge.' Now who has a fighting chance? Emotion or Logic? Warmly, Tonette

Subject: Depends on the addiction level I think From: hamzen To: Jim S. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:44:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you see all human behaviour as having a major chemical component reinforced by behaviour and ideology patterns then it depends on the level of addiction. As someone who got a HUGE amount from practicing the meditation I know the dread and despair I went through when I finally had to call it a day about excusing him any longer. When you consider that I first started mistrusting him on the tiniest level 14 years before, and for something as serios as psycho bullying on the deepest guilt level, and I never ever experienced him as god in a bod, although I was open for the possibility, well.... Certainly my ex knows all the facts, but earth will freeze over before she budges. She just saw me as trying to stop her belief, full stop, and she was not gonna allow that to happen, full stop. If you met her you'd think she was one of the most sensitive and caring people you could meet, but decades of being in this mindset means she's cut off from people, cut off from events, in a little world of her own. In one call we had I asked her how she thought she'd feel if it had been her own daughter who had been abused and she had gone through what jagdeo's victims had, she was not sure, but I knew from her reaction that she would find a way round it. I reckon the last few diehards have made so many internal switcjhes now they will go to their graves not budging, as I'm certain will big boy. Those krishna and arjuna battle stories have a lot to answer for.

Subject: I agre about the addiction level... From: Jim S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 10:25:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In talking to other long term premies about the letters I wrote about a year and a half ago, the conclusion I came to is this: If someone still needs mr. rawat in their life, or at least thinks they do, absolutely nothing will budge them. In fact, for many premies I know, they look at these revelations as either not true, or if they are true, that they are a test for their faith in the master and the path. Fear of the unknown is also a great motivating factor. On the other hand, if someone is ready to leave mr. rawat and the perfect master belief system behind, its a great catalyst for their growth and subsequent exit from the trap. I know for myself, that as soon as I began to question and leave, life offered me every opportunity on every level imaginable, alternatives to the rawat mind fuck.... Today I look back, and can't imagine how I bought into so much of what I did, for so long... It takes awhile for a lot of this to sink in....I saw epo 2 years before I seriously gave it a second look....the first time it seemed like 'premie pornography' and I skimmmed by it....the second time I really took it all in, and credit it as the major reason I now am free of it....

Subject: Sorry, but is she, well, retarded? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:01:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Tales from Amaroo Ivete Belfort Mattos From Sao Paolo, Brazil Last year, during Mothers' day I was at a Miami Event. Maharaji congratulated all mothers at the event. He told us that there is no Mothers' Day in India but that each day is unique and every day is our day. I was there feeling this life expressed in love and care. Now, one year latter it is Mothers' Day again and I remember that he mentioned the importance of being a mother in Amaroo. In both situations I was touched. I am mother of two boys and my mother passed away. With Knowledge in my life, I do not feel that it is an obligation and hard responsibility. I experience the pleasure, the opportunity to be alive and share this joy with my kids. Happy Mothers' Day! It was Mothers' Day in North and South America, yesterday 12 May - and not everywhere else in the world

Subject: A really good post from Will From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:03:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw this on LG where Cat, Roupell, Deb, etc. are giving Dave the high five for realizing that the war is over (or, better still, there never really was a war. 'How can you be an ex anything? It's like calling yourself an ex-human being or something...'). Anyway, it's kind of funny. There's Selene asking if she can make herself at home there and there's Mili inviting her in for some -- get this -- good conversation. Anyone who's ever tried to talk with Mili like I have for five years now knows how rich that is. Anyway, amidst it all, is this wonderful post from Will: There was one answer to my basic question that I would have accepted, been forced to accept: If Prem Rawat and his students enjoy 'that feeling' when they get together, more power to them. Let them enjoy it more and more, and learn from it more and more. There is no 'need' for the master so much as there is a 'joy' in being with him. My basic question, by the way, was why the need for a guru/master/satguru/teacher? When you read Shri Hans' satsang, over at Manav Dharam, the need for satguru is easily understood. The goal is to transcend the finite human consciousness as the master has done. It is a long, tortuous endeavor. It is the ultimate victory after eons of lifetimes. It's serious business. The need for life-long dedication to the living master is obvious. But I just don't understand anymore. Really I don't. I understand Sat Pal because he follows in Shri Hans' steps fairly closely. But Prem Rawat has evolved so much away from his father's teaching, that I wonder what remains and what doesn't and I wonder what the premies are trying to accomplish in their lives. Do you all want final transcendence or not? Prem Rawat never posts his father's complete satsangs on his website like Sat Pal does, so what are we to think? Where is Prem Rawat when you need him? I guess it is somewhat understandable that he remain vague, and lightly inviting, when he is interviewed for Leaders Magazine. But couldn't he switch to straight and blunt, on a forum such as this? Couldn't he answer his ex-premies? The vagueness of it all is just so frustrating. And we're never going to get any answers from you premies, because, let's face it, you're not the master and you'll go along with whatever Prem Rawat says. So I propose that Prem Rawat break his tradition of silence toward his critics and come forward to straighten this whole mess out. Let vagueness be damned.

Subject: The joy of Simplicity... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:56:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will asks a simple question: 'Where is Prem Rawat when you need him?' And the answer, Dear One, is quite simple. HE is on Dish Network TV broadcasts! You can find out more about those from His website at: Visions International, which also has sponsorship links to help support His work. Prem has made it all so easy, He's so thoughtful. As for Shri Hans, he's as dead as a door post my Dear, he doesn't count anymore, so forget him. The whole point of having a living Master of the time, is so you don't have to listen to dead ones (just as well the old bugger croaked, he was kinda heavy, and not much fun anyway). As for Sat Pal, forget him, he's a fake, and dull as dishwater, too. And for what you call your most basic question: '...why the need for a guru/master/satguru/teacher?' Jeezus, you really HAVE been back-sliding, haven't you? You need a guru/Master/teacher to just give you the answers, so you can stop all asking all these friggin QUESTIONS. If you'd taken His advice and just SHUT UP and been LISTENING, you'd know that. Sheesh! Andrea Eriksonn :) A happy, care-free Thoroughly Modern PWK, who understands that questions in the World of Knowledge are really quite RUDE, because you were supposed to have gotten rid of all of those in the Aspirant Process, before you even recieved The Master's Gift. :|

Subject: The joy of Simplicity..yeah, you tell 'em, sis!. From: Andy Daverdson To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:05:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, my name's Andy Daverdson, and it's like, so far out,you know man, cos you see it's like when I'm with the Perfect Master, it's just like this feeling takes over, and it's all too much, and the bliss keeps comin on, and it's like I'm melting at the feet of the Master, and playing my music, and it's so far out that one time my Master even heard this shriek come through the speakers in India, and it was like totally ear-splitting, and even then he kept his cool and just said something like I need a new pair of ears, and I'm grocking that that's just so totally, totally cool, because he's the living satguru and he could have thrown that premie who caused that shriek to happen, like he could have thrown him through the 3 worlds, like his dad shri Hans could have also, but he didn't, because he's the living embodiement of truth, consciousness and bliss...and compassion too.... Anyway, like my sis will tell ya, it's all totally an experience thats really, really high and ya just gotta experience it for yourself to know it..... It's like, just shut up and groove on those videos of my master, and forget about those stories about cognac and monica and dope and frampton and dig the thirst, man, cos it's really cool to be thirsty and enjoy the thirst too....(well, maybe don't totally throw out frampton, cos if our lord digs frampton and a doobie, like who am I to tell you not to, like know what I mean?) Andy Daverdson (like, just dig it anyway you can and get high with the satguru, ok?)

Subject: ANDY! What did I tell you about sycronization? From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Andy Daverdson Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andy, get off the internet, NOW. I mean it Andy, DON'T MAKE ME COME OVER THERE!!! :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :| :|

Subject: Hey, dat's coo' From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 00:20:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not as coo' as David Anders... I mean, Andy Daverdson himself. But it'd be coo', man. You be coo' too.

Subject: That's been his schtick forever From: Ellie To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 19:17:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vagueness is this conman's schtick. He'll never answer a question straight. If you ask him if he is thirsty he tries to come up with some sort of koan. 'When one is thirsty...one is ready for this self-knowledge' or some such bullshit. He's just basically full of shit. Hi Glenn. How's that cold sore?

Subject: *** Best Of *** Andrea From: Dickie Pwickie To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:27:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank Prem that you have the clarity, courage and patience to try to get through to this batch of burnt cookies that just never got it. When I read your incredibly and totally TPRF-approved words, I get a special feeling in That Place. That Feeling just keeps growing bigger, especially when I recall accidentally seeing you and Pauline Premie being synchronized in the shower at Amaroo. Just can't get that picture out of my mind but it's My Experience so I'm sticking with it. By the way, are you wearing those vintage Holi yoga whites today? You look so good in those. Dickie Pwickie - a complete pwk and proud of it since 1972

Subject: Actually... From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:32:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not a bad idea. Where is Prem Rawat when you need him? I guess it is somewhat understandable that he remain vague, and lightly inviting, when he is interviewed for Leaders Magazine. But couldn't he switch to straight and blunt, on a forum such as this? Couldn't he answer his ex-premies? The vagueness of it all is just so frustrating. And we're never going to get any answers from you premies, because, let's face it, you're not the master and you'll go along with whatever Prem Rawat says. So I propose that Prem Rawat break his tradition of silence toward his critics and come forward to straighten this whole mess out. Let vagueness be damned. Would straight and blunt be preferrable? I wrote such a letter to Maharaji demanding clarification back in 1981. Some PAM wrote a response to the effect that Maharaji was just providing a sort of 'medication' for seasickness, so that I wouldn't feel ill all the time and could function more effectively. Gosh, I was disappointed that he wasn't the Messiah, but thank the Lord for small favors: Shoko Asahara, who began the Aum Shinriko cult after having been rejected from University because of poor eyesight, hearing, and other health problems, purchased some land near Mt. Fuji in 1989. An admirer of Hitler he ordered the construction of a computer controlled chemical factory designed to produce cyanide gas, mustard gas, and sarin, a nerve gas that had been developed by the Nazis shortly after WWII. He also began exploring biological warfare, especially Botulism. When strong odors began emanating from the factory cult representatives spread the fiction that the US and Japanese military were spraying poison gas on them. In 1990 he ran for political office in Japan. The campaign had no program or issues, and consisted almost entirely of dewy-eyed, white-robed followers chanting: 'Sho-ko, Sho-ko, As-a-ha-ra,' over and over. One highly publicized and attractive follower charmed female TV viewers by declaring that Asahara had given him the strength to stop masturbating. He reacted to the inevitable defeat by taking himself and his followers to a remote island in Okinawa in preparation for what he believed would be a nuclear attack on Japan by the US. In 1992 Asahara published a manifesto entitled Declaring Myself the Christ, and including various prophecies concerning what he viewed to be his apocalyptic mission. By doing this he abandoned what had been a relatively mild quasi-Buddhist approach to religious doctrine. He also expanded his movement into Russia, where he was depicted as a 'stripped, beaten Christ wearing a crown of thorns and hanging from a cross--and also bearing a striking resemblance to the prophet-monk Rasputin.' In 1992 a team of Aum microbiologists travelled to Zaire, ostensibly to help curb an outbreak of Ebola, but in reality to collect a strain to be used for germ warfare. They had also acquired a formula for synthesizing the deadly venom of the green mamba snake. As Asahara's health continued to decline he projected his own impending personal apocalypse onto the world. He continued to make apocalyptic predicions about a nuclear holocaust started by a US attack on Japan, and purchased land in Australia where he and his followers could wait out the inevitable end, and then repopulate the planet with a society dedicated to the principles of Aum. The attack on the Tokyo subway, organized as an 'object lesson' for the world could have easily been far more deadly than it was, had the delivery system not been so crude or so poorly implemented. In the words of Robert Robbins and Jerrold Post: 'The Aum Supreme Truth represents a transition between passive millennarians, who withdraw in despair to await the millennium (as exemplified by the People's Temple and the Branch Davidians), and religious warriors, who are not in a state of despair but fight against the unbelievers for their version of God's kingdom.' It occurs to me, in light of some of these observations, that one ought to engage the followers of such cults in dialogue whenever possible... whatever that takes, because marginalizing them produces some extremely perverse results. Thus, constructing stark emotional divisions between followers and non-followers, which the cult tends to reinforce, produces either paranoid passive millennarists or defensive aggression, both of which are an order of magnitude more difficult to deal with than what we have here. The fact that sites like LG exist, in spite of the fact that their theme is cult friendly and resistant to a rationalistic disassembly of the cult, is something of a victory. They've 'caught the bug' of discussion. If one were to see further signs of real paranoid behavior on the part of cult members, regardless of how 'righteous' the rational analysis of the cult and its practices is, that would be a *bad* sign... a *very bad* sign. If anyone is holding onto the possibility that every single member of the cult can be convinced that it's a bogus sham I suggest that you're being unrealistic. Given the ambiguities of human cognition and perception, and the inadequacies of rationality, such a consenses would defy human nature. Personally, I'm glad Maharaji was not willing to commit himself to a messianic role in the long run. Yes it was horribly and obviously opportunistic of him to suggest such a role in the early days, and no doubt an enormous embarrassment now. But thank the Lord (or human nature) for small victories. Still, it's a good idea to ask the question, even if you already know the answer. --Scott

Subject: Good point, Scott ... but From: Jim To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:45:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post, Scott. Thanks for explaining Asahara so succinctly. I never really understood that story so well. But while I get your point about the generally positive nature of there being a forum like LG at all, don't forget, it's so small, and involves so few premies, it's pretty well negligible. Will it grow into something more significant, even on the terms you describe? Maybe. Maybe not.

Subject: Except LG is a big fat fake From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:52:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The cacophony of the multi-alias anonymous cultweasels on LG drowns out any sincerity - as happened with Isabella. They are actively working to prevent any serious discussion. All that's left on LG are the nuts and plants.

Subject: Re: Except LG is a big fat fake From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:02:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat: I don't know why you'd expect such a group to be very democratic or rational. The point is that they have their *own* forum that's seeking to engage the enemy, even with some fairly tranparent tricks. Alot better than a paranoid reaction, where things get more than just irrational... they get outright crazy and dangerous. The habit of argumentation is one of the 'neurocharms' that the philosopher Frederick Turner points out as uniquely human. When people give up on argumentation then fear has just accomplished something like self-amputation of a vital appendage. I take your and Jim's point that I'm probably overestimating the effect, if not the significance, of that forum. --Scott

Subject: that's nice, Scott From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 03:06:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You cheered me up a bit. You mean, if the LG nuts weren't making inane jokes and throwing around sophomoric insults, they might be using nerve gas on subways? That's a relief. But seriously, I hope you aren't underestimating LG's significance although it sounds a bit theoretical to me. :P

Subject: Re: that's nice, Scott From: Scott T. To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:03:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They've proved they're capable of some paranoid actions, like CAC. There isn't a history of aggression though, and they don't have an apacalyptic ideology (at least one that developed beyond the 'rotten vegetables' stage) so they're pretty far from taking such actions. Besides, if things don't work out here they can always just retreat to India. So, I guess there are reasons why this particular cult is not likely to became aggressive even if they don't chat on LG. I'm just saying that it's a safety valve of some sort. It's a place where they could at least conceivably 'stumble onto' the truth, whereas that ironic situation isn't very likely in a 'satsang' type of environment. --Scott

Subject: Re: that's really nice, Scott From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have seldom posted on LG. I've chatted to those premies I know and a few exes. It never struck me as a place for fruitful discussion. When exes aren't over there arguing with premies, the joint is boring and sometimes has no posts for weeks on end. I see that Roupell's latest fake persona, Andrew S, even started a thread addressed to JHB probably out of boredom talking to himself. Yes, he posts under so many aliases over on LG to make it look like there are lots of premies. Actually I would be thrilled to see a real premie forum and would stay off it and urge all exes to stay away (in order to reduce enmity and encourage open discussion) but I doubt if it will ever happen. The cult is based on a secret intitiation. That simple fact of a secret really does twist the mind and warp one's sense of honesty and openness. Having a secret like that is like having a permanent gag. Leading a double life and keeping secrets from one's family and friends causes a severe malfunctioning of one's moral compass.

Subject: Re: Messianic confusion From: Scott T. To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:04:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia: Good ideas there, but to pick up on your last point, has Maharaji really dropped the Messianic role? No one seems to quite know, least of all the premies. They now laugh at the fact we all believed he was the Lord back in the 70's, but they don't think he's an ordinary human being either, do they? And Maharaji recently described himself as the 'filament in the light bulb' or something, whatever that's supposed to be. Not an ordinary human being in his own estimation for sure! I think of him as the 'hair of the dog' actually. --Scott

Subject: Neither Fire nor Ice From: Gregg To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I'm also just as happy that Rawat's cult is not ending in a blazing inferno or whatnot. Messianic notions dwindling away, he and his followers seem to be just as happy cohabiting in the hot (well, tepid) tub of Amaroo together. Fine, do your thing, whatever floats your boat, etc. etc. No harm in continuing our soapbox rantings here on Forum Seven, though. Keeping interested parties informed as to the reality behind the New Ageish scrim is a worthy pursuit. Maybe not as important as feeding the hungry or saving the Earth, but a few people have been encouraged to think about all this, to their betterment. And I get to play mental hooky from work and practice writing.

Subject: Asahara, Jones, Koresh, Applewhite From: PatC To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:10:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course Rev Rawat does not rank up there with Asahara, Jones, Koresh or Applewhite (Heaven's Gate) but he is still listed on Rick Ross' website. The problem with LG though is that it is not a sincere forum for discussion by cult members as you seem to think. There are only two sincere (if deluded) people there and I know them both as they live in SF. The rest are game-playing multiple alias diehard cult apologists and currently two or three disgruntled former exes sucking up to Catweasel. Engaging there is a waste of time. Rick Ross www.rickross.com/

Subject: Re: Asahara, Jones, Koresh, Applewhite From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:29:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are the two sincere (if deluded people) you're referring to sfjim and Cosmic Traveller? I must say those two do seem to have a different quality to most of the rest in that they don't seem to have any problems interracting warmly and unconfrontationally with people whose views differ from their own. Livia

Subject: Yes, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 12:08:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear that you're under the weather. Get well soon. CT and sfjim live here and are the only two premies who still talk to me. The fact that they are rebellious Hindu hippies means that they are ostracised by the local church-ladies who find them embarassingly ''pre-revisionist.'' My god, they like saris, incense, old-timey satsang (which CT hosts in his pad in the Haight) and ...well, you get the picture. The problem that I have with them is not so much that I can't pry them loose from Maharajism but that I can't pry them loose from their Hinduism. I'm sure you've seen that they are both suckers for Hindu ''saints'' with their posts about Ammachi, Yoganada, Krishamurthu, Sri Sri Uncle Tom Cobley Ji et al.

Subject: Oh no! Not another good post from Will From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:17:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad you brought that over here. Actually he did several good posts over on LG recently and of course they were all met with the reheated porridge that one can always rely on from the anonymous cultweasels over there. You are a goddamed saint, Will. I know I can't be bothered to talk to those guys. It's also quite sad to see two people whom I know personally (CT and sfjim) now clutching at any spritual straw er teacher they can dig up - Ammachi, Yogananda, Krishnamurthi. Oh boy!

Subject: Sorry, but, well,..here's another one! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:36:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A good post like this deserves to be not only read here but archived as well, so that's why I'm reposting it. What's really funny, by the way, is seeing Mili commisserate with his new friend, Selene, about what to do with all the 'crud' they get on themselves here. Mili just goes for walks on the beach, sits in cafes looking at pretty women. It must be tough coming here and being expected to be honest. You ask if I still practice. I will take your question to mean do I still practice a form of a 'journey within.' Obviously, I don't practice Knowledge anymore as Prem advises. But even when I considered myself 'a premie,' I didn't meditate as instructed, I must admit. I gave away my baragon while I was still in the ashram before Prem advised against them. I also did not do music technique because I could never get pass the annoyance of the bodily sounds that occur when the thumbs are in the ears. It was just never in me to seek higher consciousness by way of discipline. But still I was philosophically committed to enlightenment as all the past masters spoke of it. I left Knowledge a couple years ago partly because I had very slowly lost any interest in pursuing enlightenment. I did not feel, as you seem to, that my inner journal was unfolding everyday. I felt, instead, that I should stop striving for a state of consiousness that was supposedly superior to the one I was in naturally. I felt I should just be the finite person I am, and accept it totally for as long as I live. So I guess I should say no, I am not practicing an inner journey to anywhere or to any higher state. However, I do still meditate, although not very often, because I value that state of consciousness when the thoughts are quieted and the mind is alert and awake. That state of mind is pleasant and I think it helps 'open my mind to creative energy.' I also do meditation as a sort of prayer where the person simply opens his mind and heart to the higher power. But I don't seek to actually attain higher conscioiusness and it is now my belief that people should not do so, because we are as we should be, already. We can open our minds and hearts toward the higher powers, and that is a good thing, and that leaves all the rest up to the higher power to do as it sees fit. But we should not seek perfection because perfection is not our nature. Religion always tells people that they have to change in some way to become closer to God. I don't accept that anymore. What puzzles me about you, if you are expressing yourself honestly, is how you can practice Knowledge without seeming to have any sort of philosophical framework about what you are doing. I don't mean you have to have a very specific belief system about the universe, but you must have some sort of understanding about what you are doing in your practice of Knowledge other than just experiencing an experience. I do disagree with you that a person has to practice in order to have that experience. From the standpoint of being an ex-premie, I can say that my own experience as a premie contained absolutely nothing that I have now lost. Really, nothing really changes. The only thing I gave up was a belief system about who Maharaji is and what the goal of my life is. Otherwise, when I go inside I experience exactly what I used to experience and my heart is full, more full even because I have now accepted the desire of my heart toward other people, whereas as a premie I was caught up in that idea that attachments to people were something that got in the way of real love. That kind of struggle is something I also now see as being unrealistic, at best, and quite psychologically harmful, at worse.

Subject: Good, Will's gems are wasted on LG [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:29:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: By his own admission From: Cat To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:42:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He never practiced. Ever You should read the answers Mr Spin())

Subject: Oh come off it, Cat From: Jim To: Cat Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:54:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's what he said re how he meditated: Obviously, I don't practice Knowledge anymore as Prem advises. But even when I considered myself 'a premie,' I didn't meditate as instructed, I must admit. I gave away my baragon while I was still in the ashram before Prem advised against them. I also did not do music technique because I could never get pass the annoyance of the bodily sounds that occur when the thumbs are in the ears. It was just never in me to seek higher consciousness by way of discipline. Do you really think it made a difference if he did ALL the techniques and used a baragon? Truth is, Cat, you don't know aht to think about this, do you? Where's the line drawn between someone practising K and someone not? Do you know? Can you say? No, of course you can't. It's a cult. You're not supposed to understand such things (as if there really were answers). You're just supposed to bow and bow and bow some more.

Subject: But Jim, the way to become Borg is to obey From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:55:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The dear little cult clones have to do exactly as Rawat says including ''practicing self-knowledge'' like a bunch of synchronized robots.

Subject: No, that's your cult Pat From: Catweasel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 22:31:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No , speaking for myself nastypants , I do it because I enjoy it. I think your response simply proves one thing. YOU were faking for years.Is there anything about you that is remotely real?

Subject: That'll Be the Day From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:32:31 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: That is such a funny thought that I nearly spilled my coffee. The day Prem Rawat, admits anything, explains anything, or even makes sense, will be the same proverbial day that hell freezes over. I think Rawat envisions himself as kind of a Clint Eastwood character. The kind of he-man who can 'hold his water' or whatever, you know strong ,silent, steel-jawed(?!) As opposed to weak, pudgy, spoiled, ugly, etc. True dementia, no?

Subject: New article on EV in the Combat review From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:44:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La secte Elan Vital: Banale entreprise de méditation ? Voici une reproduction de l'article paru dans le numéro 27 (mars 2002)de la revue Combat. Reproduction avec l'autorisation de la revue Combat. Au service du gourou Maharaji, la branche française de la secte Elan Vital tisse méticuleusement sa toile, dans une totale discrétion. Révélations sur ses forces actuelles, son organisation interne et son mode de fonctionnement. Par Gilles Alfonsi et J-M Kahn Combat publie des documents internes de la secte Elan Vital susceptibles d'intéresser les services compétents : la fiche sur laquelle sont consignées les données relatives à la situation personnelle et à l'implication de chaque adepte (document 1), la carte de l'implantation du mouvement en France (document 2), une approche de ses activités en Europe, des consignes concernant la recherche de salles de séminaire (voir document 4) et des préconisations internes concernant la sécurité informatique des transmissions via Internet (voir document 4a)...... Sorry, but you'll have to learn frog talk!

Subject: Zoot alors! Grenouille! From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:12:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done, J-M. Now we just need Janet to translate.

Subject: Article overview From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:25:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quick article's overview: The article is articulated around genuine (recent) administrative documents we've got from EV (not directly from them of course). 1st document: how aspirants are monitored and data gathered on them 2nd document: map/figures of the premies communities in France 3rd document: map/figures of premies in Europe 4th document: EV's organization charts and some excerpts of First Class documents Also a paragraph on Jean-Paul Biberian, president of EV France, who's a senior lecturer in physics, working on 'cold fusion' (which has been proved unworkable)... Looks like EV has no more 'official' activities in France anymore. No message on answering machines, no nothing !

Subject: French got a mention From: Moll of Mole To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 16:33:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I heard that his guruness spoke to a french premie in one of these 'no question sessions' about the situation in France. Did any of you Ausies that went to the gathering hear anything of this? MoM

Subject: Merci beaucoup, J-M From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:04:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Also a paragraph on Jean-Paul Biberian, president of EV France, who's a senior lecturer in physics, working on 'cold fusion' (which has been proved unworkable)...'' So he specializes in hot air and cold fusion? Another waste of tax-payers' money?

Subject: That's precisely the point ! From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:17:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That also happens in France. The journalist makes a parallel between an old satsang of Jean-Paul he found in some old DLM magazine, and what he now says about 'cold fusion'.

Subject: I know. I understand you. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:28:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: More Cainer Stuff From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:44:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whilst posting the helicopter stuff for Mirror down below I also have some additional articles on the 'Cainer Saga' which may not have been posted before (if they have apologies). In any event makes for light reading - like 'Mills and Boon' :) Have posted the full 14 July 1999 Guardian article but scroll down to where Cainer stuff starts. Also see linked stuff on Drek's site which gives more context of how Cainer fits into all this. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 1,402 words 14 July 1999 The Guardian 5 English (c) 1999 I was due to appear on Question Time last Thursday. A couple of weeks ago, however, one of the producers rang to say that a `special guest' would be replacing me. Tony Blair (for it was he) duly came off the substitutes' bench and, before the evening was out, had promised to outlaw fox-hunting `as soon as we possibly can'. Aneurin Bevan used to say that the language of socialism is the language of priorities, and for many people the welfare of foxy-whiskered predators seems a far higher priority than such trifling sideshows as poverty, education, health or public transport. Never mind that Blair's pledge was manifestly a ploy to redeem himself in the eyes of those Labour voters whom he had gratuitously offended only two days earlier with his sneers at public-sector workers. We are assured by Downing Street's busy spin-merchants that the PM has always hated hunting, and that his remarks though unexpected were wholly sincere. If so, why did he embellish them with such palpable fibs about Mike Foster's private member's bill? `We had one try last session ... I voah-ed for it,' he said, employing the glottal stop usually reserved for his chummy performances on the Des O'Connor Show or Richard And Judy. A glance at Hansard reveals that the prime minister did not voah at the second reading of the Wild Mammals (Hunting With Dogs) Bill in November 1997, nor at its report stage and third reading in March last year. `It was blocked by Conservatives in the House of Commons and in the Lords,' Blair continued. `One of the reasons we are reforming the House of Lords is that a whole lot of her-editary peers can be brought out of the woodwork to defeat a bill that many people support.' This is a veritable banquet of bollocks: testicle terrine followed by grilled gonad and rounded off with bollock brulee. The Foster bill never even reached the Lords. What killed it was the refusal of the government Tony Blair's government to provide the necessary parliamentary time. `I do not see a role for government,' Jack Straw announced on the eve of the third reading, explaining why Foster could expect no official help. `I am well aware there are strong opinions on this, but it is not uppermost in the minds of the majority of the population.' Having already changed his mind on private prisons, trial by jury and much else, Straw may get terminal indigestion if he has to eat any more of his words. Like Tony Blair, I dislike hunting. But is it any more objectionable than other blood sports? `Let those whose preferred sport is with shotgun or fishing rod be under no illusion,' the Daily Telegraph warned its readers last Saturday. `The bell that tolls for hunting will toll for them.' Labour MPs insist that this is untrue, and for once I believe them. `I shall state now, and repeat whenever necessary, that the bill does not extend to shooting and angling,' Mike Foster told the Commons in 1997. As well he might: for all his pious disapproval of `cruelty and barbarism in the name of sport', Foster is himself a veteran coarse-fisherman who has often inflicted unnecessary suffering on hapless carp purely for his own gratification. FM Cornford's famous Principle of the Wedge holds that `you should not act justly now for fear of raising expectations that you will act still more justly in the future'. He meant it satirically, of course a point overlooked by those who argued that Nato's failure to defend the people of Rwanda or East Timor somehow disqualified it from intervening in Kosovo. (In the words of another Cornfordism, the Principle of the Dangerous Precedent: `Nothing should ever be done for the first time.') Even so, any precedent does indeed raise expectations that its logic will be followed through in comparable cases. Why, then, does Tony Blair's moral compassion not extend to those poor fishy-wishies who are hauled out of gravel pits with vicious hooks in their mouths? Mike Foster gave the game away when he turned up for his second-reading debate brandishing a fluffy toy fox a stunt that John Prescott gleefully repeated this week. Mr and Mrs Reynard are cutey-pies who must therefore be protected (though, of course, they won't be protected at all, merely shot or gassed). But you will search the shelves of Hamleys in vain for a cuddly little perch or tench. Until our piscine pals start growing fur, they can expect no mercy. Banning hunting like hunting itself is not only a trivial pursuit but also an infantile disorder. Yet we now learn that Labour intends to make this issue `the heart of its campaign' in the Eddisbury byelection. As the Guardian reported on Monday: `Party chiefs believe there is strong opposition to the sport in the Cheshire constituency, which is home to the Cheshire Hunt.' If they want to prove that hunting is the preserve of reactionary, half-witted toffs, these party chiefs could hardly choose a less appropriate place. The most distinguished former member of the Cheshire Hunt was a lifelong Marxist who described fox-hunting as `the best school of all' for serious revolutionaries. His name? Frederick Engels. The Daily Mail seems to have appointed itself as the official newspaper of the solar eclipse. Not content with chartering a ship and a plane from which a lucky few competition-winners can witness the event, the paper is also offering an Eclipse Horoscope by `Britain's foremost astrologer', Jonathan Cainer. Mail executives must have forgotten what happened the last time a group of simpletons failed to notice the difference between astronomy and astrology, when the appearance of the Hale-Bopp comet in 1997 prompted members of the Heaven's Gate sect in San Diego to commit mass suicide. The Daily Mail denounced the dead cultists as `freaks' whose `bizarre gospel' that salvation could be found in a comet reflected an `obsession with the stars which was a throwback to thousands of years ago'. Jonathan Cainer, however, described Hale-Bopp as `a herald ... that undoubtedly signifies imminent worldwide change on an impressive scale'. Two years on, he is making identical claims for the eclipse: `It heralds the start of change, on an unparalleled scale, for the whole world'. This Cainer is a man who needs watching. Although the Daily Mail is proud of its record in exposing sinister cults that brainwash converts and break up families, as proved by its epic 101-day libel battle against the Moonies in 1981, it seems unaware that its own astrologer is a devotee of just such a cult. The object of Cainer's veneration is the Guru Maharaj Ji, who came to the west as a tubby 13-year-old in the early 1970s and persuaded thousands of ex-hippies to join his Divine Light Mission. Such was his appeal that by the end of the decade he owned 93 Rolls-Royces and had run up a $4m bill for back-taxes. In those days the guru described himself as the Lord of the Universe and the Exploding Love-Bomb. Since then, the Divine Light Mission has changed its name to Elan Vital, and its leader now prefers to be known as Maharaji, Perfect Master. But his methods and lifestyle remain the same: when not touring the world in his $25m Gulfstream private jet, exploding love-bombs all over the faithful, he retreats to a vast Malibu mansion, nursing his duodenal ulcer and counting his loot. Rather coyly, Jonathan Cainer never mentions the guru in his Daily Mail column. In cyberspace, however, he is less discreet: he runs a website (www.enjoyinglife.org) devoted to the cult, and in April this year he travelled all the way to Malaysia merely to hear one of Maharaji's speeches. `There are so many newspapers and magazines,' the Perfect Master told his audience. `Imagine if one of them just said: `Everything is fine ... go and enjoy yourself and don't waste your time.' Even if that newspaper sold just one copy it would be a worthwhile exercise to print it.' On his website, Cainer describes this idea as `magnificent'. Maybe he should suggest it to the Daily Mail. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- By Jonathan Cainer. 188 words 16 July 1999 The Guardian 23 English (c) 1999 Francis Wheen appears to be suggesting (The Mail man, the Maharaji and the exploding love bomb, G2, July 14) that I am about to invite readers of my newspaper to participate in a mass suicide. I know that the Guardian is keen to improve its monthly circulation. The annihilation of a few thousand Daily Mail readers would no doubt help greatly in this endeavour. Nonetheless, I feel that this is taking wishful thinking a tad too far. I do not belong to any cult, astrological or otherwise. I do have a keen interest in the world of a teacher called Maharaji but I am not his (or anyone else's) devotee. Nor do I recognise the person in the picture you printed. The Maharaji that I know does not have 93 Rolls Royces, nor has he ever described himself as an `exploding love bomb'. I cannot tell you whether or not he is has a duodenal ulcer but it looks very much to me as if you are getting him mixed up with someone else. Jonathan Cainer Daily Mail. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 443 words 21 July 1999 The Guardian 5 English (c) 1999 Jonathan Cainer, the Daily Mail's resident stargazer, has taken umbrage at my suggestion that he is a devotee of Maharaji, the tubby preacher who used to call himself the Guru Maharaj Ji. Why, then, does he maintain a large website devoted to the old boy? `I'm a keen aficionado of Maharaji's work and his message,' Cainer explains, in a `very personal statement' posted on the website replying to my article last week. `But I really have to reject that devotion notion. It implies some kind of religious faith and if this is a religion or faith, that's the first I have heard of it in my 20-odd years of involvement.' Tut tut: Cainer clearly hasn't been paying attention. Maharaji himself dealt with the `devotion notion' when addressing more than 50,000 followers in New Delhi on April 13 1991: `What has a devotee to become? A devotee has to become a receptacle. And what has a disciple to become? A disciple too has to become a receptacle. Whatever you name him, he is meant to be a vessel, meant to be empty ... You have to turn to the Master and pray to him to give you prudence - `Maharaji, please give me wisdom ... If my attention is diverted somewhere else, O my Lord, please call me back to you ... I do not know what is good for me. But you know best.' Cainer says Maharaji has never claimed to be `some kind of divinity'. In fact, he has often done just that. Interviewed by the Divine Times newspaper in February 1973, he described himself as `the Supremest Lord in person'. In February 1982 he advised aficionados that `by yourself you cannot do anything, but I can do everything ... I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell'. At another New Delhi rally, on November 9 1990, he announced that `the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: `I bow down to the lotus-feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.' Since then, Maharaji has been more cautious, presenting himself merely as a Master of Meditation. But I have it on the best possible authority that he hasn't changed his views: only last Saturday, the Maharaji assured a crowd in Barcelona that his message `is always the same'. How could Cainer fail to notice? I can only assume that he has been too busy admiring the fragrant lotus-feet of the editor of the Daily Mail. Cainer on Drek Site www.oz.net/~drek/best/nigel_cainer_expose.html

Subject: OL..should be prominent on epo. Thanks nt From: la-ex To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 10:19:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Glad they've used some From: Jean-Michl To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:34:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EV-DLM Papers quotes !!

Subject: Self-revisionism From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:08:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a strange conversation yesterday. Someone asked me about my Guru...2 hrs later... Where do you start ? They were genuinely interested in the whole phenomenononon and how a seemingly (HA!) intelligent bloke like meself could get into it. I think the fact that they value my opinion actually would have leant Maharaji some credibility...but its a tough subject to talk about in depth. Over the two hour ex-sang I cover a wide range of topics, but I also realised how deeply grateful I am for the whole thing. Please dont shout at me .. I am not advising anybody else,but it came home to me clearer than ever that the EXITING process after 18 years of blissful devotion is the natural and rightful fruition of those feelings and that path. BUT what struck me was how, given a open eyed audience, I can quote and talk and 'bliss em out' for hours. The ONE thing which stopped em from getting blissed out was the fact that I was tempering my praise and gratitude and memories of K and Maha with the perspective of exiting. It somehow 'earths' the lightening, discharges the static and stops the balloons of bliss getting too inflated. Instead of 'WOW' we are left with 'INTERESTING', and the reason for this is that Exiting offers No answers. It places an apparant 'answer' (Knowledge and Maha) within a context of personal vulnerability and need, social pressure (subtle), conditioning, hype, etc etc... BUT what it also showed me was how conditioned to be grateful I am. For every person who was nice to me, from the age of 18 to the age of 35 or 36 I appologise. All those sweet, kind , loyal souls, most especially my late father, towards whom I felt no thanks for their love, but diverted it all to the clay feet of an eastern Guru. maharaji did teach me to be grateful. he did awaken the sweetest feelings of humility and thankfulness in me... but those feelings arrived badged and labelled, M brand loyalty. The journey back from an adolesecent state of hero-worship into a relationship with humanity and its foibles I undertook 20 years too late. lessons which I had never learned at 18, I face afresh at 39... and yet I am still grateful.. Grateful for the chance to be HERE, to have shared so much, and most of all, grateful to be coming home after a long, weird trip.

Subject: Loafie OT From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 11:56:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tried to ring you 2day - only to dicover the 'L' page has fallen out of Nige's filofax. Can I come for a cuppa 2morrow (Wed) or Thurs.... can you phone me, or email your number Moles xx

Subject: Cany find your number ! From: Loaf To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:42:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or your email ! (Dont know if I have ever had it, but its not on my new computer) Come round Today (Wednesday) in t'afternoon between 3 and 5 or email me and I will reply with my number ! Modern Life eh ! You dont have these problems if you havnt got electrickery. Loafie xx

Subject: Don't know which is your email! From: Moley To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 04:47:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige has got 4 on his laptop! Modern life indeed. Can't keep up. Bring back the pigeons. I'll truck on over to you this afternoon xx

Subject: Welcome home Loaf From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:39:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I liked your post, carefully discriminating between what you learned and what was being insinuated upon you vis a vis 'M branded loyalty'. Your post strongly parallels Hamzens amazing Techniques Without Attribution quest (TWA?). I recently attended a welcoming ceremony here in Seattle for the so-called Lost Youth of Sudan. They are among the thousands of war-orphaned refugees taken in by the US. A friend of mine, who helps support their cause, asked what they needed - drums, clothes, etc. Their reply was that they had never been welcomed here so an event was planned. At the ceremony, after a warm talk by local officials, one youth stood and said that, because of our kindness, she now feels she is seeing her dead family again. Well, we sat there with tears streaming down our faces. That by way of saying welcome home to you, Loaf. Another reason why this forum has value. All of us M&K refugees need to feel welcome in our new 'homes'. Richard Forum Welcome Home Committee

Subject: Thankyou Richard From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 04:11:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I too can finally see my dead family again. My late father died when I was 8 months into born-again-premiedom and I treated him very badly. I despised my parents 'blindness' in not being able to see Maharaji's wonder and this just compounded my adolescent arrogance and insensitivity. He died without either of us knowing how much I loved him. He was a kindly, ordinary, conventional, old fashioned chap of 71, but I couldnt see him, or my feelings about him in focus until I had started to get the usurper maharaj out of my system. I was in Sri Lanka in 2000 for the millenium, and in bed one night I was talking to my friend Helen and I tears finally began to flow as I realised how much I loved him. 18 yrs after his death and thousands of miles away from home, I made peace with my dead father. I embraced him, forgave him for being ordinary and I felt his love. Sometimes you have to kill the 'buddha' in order to bring life and love and respect to the mortals who deserve it. Been a wonderful journey home. Thankyou for your kind welcome. let the festivities commence ! Loafie

Subject: Hurrah hurrah! From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 05:31:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I cant resist joining in with your posts oh Loafing one. Let the festivities commence indeed! Let them, let them! I think that I was just an optimistic little chappie. M and K were a disguise within which to act. Admittedly there was more, but middle-class england didn't give much room for waving tendrils in the air, or leaping upwards in the bollie shree mode now did it? Today is the day the teddy bears have their picnic. Love BD

Subject: My mirth engine nearly burst ! From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The inflations of mirth engines and the waving of tendrils are lost on the Mr Mainwarings of this world, amongst whom we were raised. Sponteniety was never to be trusted... and along comes a free-form Spiritual Liberace.... and bingo ! You cant beat a good bholay Shree But dont FORGET BD... we have seen the Elvises congregate. There is life yet !

Subject: The celebration of return From: Richard To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:10:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, thanks for sharing your story of reconciliation with your father. Very moving. And yes Bryn, let the festivities commence. Here is the link to a website I created for Mosaic, the organization that arranged the welcoming ceremony. From the homepage under World of Unrest, there are links to photos I took at the celebration and links to an in depth story about the refugees in Seattle Times. Get out your hankies. Of course the Sudanese orphans' story is much more tragic than I can imagine but the idea of coming home and being welcomed home has it's parallels in the world of leaving M&K. Perhaps, in order to fully reintegrate back into the real world, our psyches need to be welcomed and have our return celebrated. This is one reason I continue to hover here even though I feel reconciled. It gives me an opportunity to participate in the ongoing celebration of return each time another person crosses the desert of false belief. Richard Mosaic mosaicvoices.org/

Subject: Re: The celebration of return From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:17:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, thanks for this moving link, and also this quote: 'This is one reason I continue to hover here even though I feel reconciled. It gives me an opportunity to participate in the ongoing celebration of return each time another person crosses the desert of false belief. ' I concur with your reasons for being here. I feel that a welcoming committee is really needed for jumping the wall, and that the members of this committee need to be kind and gentle and skilled enough to 'talk people over the wall' - which includes up the other side, teetering on the top and jumping into (hopefully) loving arms. It can feel very empty to leave such an all-consuming belief system, and in a way, confronting that emptiness is part of the recovery. But there's absolutely no need for loneliness and isolation to be part of the process. In fact, human contact with a group of people who were much more personally loving than premies was the greatest support I got when I left. love ktd

Subject: Thanks for that From: Jethro To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:48:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The journey back from an adolesecent state of hero-worship into a relationship with humanity and its foibles I undertook 20 years too late. 'lessons which I had never learned at 18, I face afresh at 39... and yet I am still grateful.. Grateful for the chance to be HERE, to have shared so much, and most of all, grateful to be coming home after a long, weird trip.' What you have beautifully put applies to many of us. Enjoy your true coming home. Oh yes, and ignore Mili, he's just jealous and still chasing the carrot. regard Jethro

Subject: Mili I find it hard to ignore From: Loaf To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 22:50:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seeing as he is conspicuous by his abscence ! Thanks for your post (And Disculta from Tunbridge Wells below :0) Gratitute is a lovely thing. oh people of the world...let it flow , Let it Flow !

Subject: Grateful From: Disculta To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:10:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for this beautiful thread. I also wave back and forth between being grateful for a lot about the whole MJ experience and annoyance at having been used by a very unconscious family whom I believed to be supremely conscious. I am very grateful for the walk I took yesterday on which I met all kinds of creatures including a 'stink-snake.' I'm grateful for being able to communicate with people all over the world through a box in my office. Also for my friends, family, husband and incredible step-kids, my work, my home and the new Walgreens pain patches. I think that it's important to claim our new home, as Richard so beautifully put it, and also to claim our continuing gratitude for life, if we so desire. Wouldn't want premies or MJ to think they had some monopoly on that now would we? love ktd

Subject: Re: Grateful From: Richard To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 09:19:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome home, Disculta you awe-some goddess you! Glad to see you here and on my email. It's true that gratitude is just one more thing that was hijacked, but by coming back home we reclaim ourselves and the simple yet beautiful emotions that once were surrendered at da feet.

Subject: Maharishi on Larry King From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 01:12:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was interviewed by Larry King Sunday night. I only caught a few minutes but most of what I heard was MMY giving monologue-sang on the Natural Law Government he would like established as a parallel government everywhere in the world. A bigger megalomaniac than you know who. Larry's hard hitting questions included 'Are you a vegetarian?', etc. Transcript will be on CNN site soon. Maharaji in Leaders and now Maharishi on Larry King. So I guess any day we'll see Reverend Moon on the Today Show and Sat Pal on Charlie Rose. Transcript www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/lklw.html

Subject: Re: Maharishi on Larry King From: Hatshepsut To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 02:53:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A premie gave Larry King one of the first four prototype Breath watches. Which used to be available from Visions.

Subject: Here's the interview transcript link From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:43:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So far, it appears the Beatles' Guru is more forthcoming and honest than Prem Rawat. Let's see how MMY answers the same question put to PR Larry King: Is Maharishi a title or a name? Yogi: I feel I think people begin to call significant or the characteristic of the word Maharishi. Maha means great and rishi is a seer. The seer of reality. The seer, that's what people called and it became a sort of name. Now that wasn't so hard to do. The interview is also filled with Hindu hyperbole and mobius logic like this: KING: What is transcendental meditation? YOGI: Transcendental meditation is something that can be defined as a means to do what one wants to do in a better way, in a right way, for maximum results. It's a program that the mind begins to experience its own final impression. Its final thoughts and then finally transcends the finest thought and that is the level of what they call self-referral pure consciousness. Which is the ultimate reality of life. Pure intelligence from where? The creation emerges from where? The administration of life is maintained from where? Physical expression of the universe has this basis. So transcendental meditation brings about transcendental consciousness. Which is self-referral consciousness. The source of all intelligence. KING: Why ... YOGI: That level of intelligence becomes creative intelligence. Oh, now I get it. Maharishi interview www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/12/lklw.00.html

Subject: A link to an ex-Member... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 15:19:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a link to an anti-TM site. It's got lots of links to information about the cult. A couple of points: 1. Wasn't John Lennon turned off by the Maharishi? 2. George Harrison was a Krishna guy, right? 3. Maharishi did buy the Rawat 707...too funny. 4. Is Larry King mad?? Enjoy the link. There was another one to Enkankar on LG if anyone is interested in exploring new horizons:) Falling Down the Rabbit Hole www.suggestibility.org/

Subject: Re: Here's the interview transcript link From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:24:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheeesh KING: We know that your good friends, George Harrison and John Lennon, are gone. What do you believe happens upon death? YOGI: Death is just a -- it gives a new start for a new journey. In the process of evolution the body lasts for some time and then will take other body and take other body and take other body. Until the final redemption from diversity is transcended. The totality is found. They say the potential of life, cosmic potential of life, immortality in its field of counting it in terms of time. Immortality. Hey this YogiBear guy seems to make sense! At last a true GooRoo. I'm off, nice to know you guys, its been a pleasure, but greater things beckon! Will come back when I have completed the cycle of life. Time waits for no man. Now how much does a TM mantra costs these days? :) Thorin, finding some loose change before completing his life.

Subject: Who's plagiarizing who? From: Jean-Michel To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:21:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Maharishi bought Rawat's old 707 (the one with the golden toilets), and the Mahararishi now also has his TV channel, the 'Maharishi channel'. Too funny !!

Subject: One real LOL here! From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:09:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just back from mom's day dinner for Laurie. Read this. THIS, Richard: Larry's hard hitting questions included 'Are you a vegetarian?', etc. broke us both up simultaneously. God, King just gets to the real heart of hard issues, doesn't he?

Subject: World peace for only $1 billion! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:38:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: KING: What part in all of this, Maharishi, does money play? There have been stories that you're the -- you're -- that you have started what is a multi-billion dollar business. YOGI: I lack only $1 billion to make a world -- better world. So, many months ago, I had publicized in the American papers that $1 billion endowment fund will raise enough this Vedic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to fly about. We want to engage 40,000 people on a permanent basis, and they will have enough intense influence of coherency in the world consciousness. And anybody who wants to have peace, and everyone wants to peace, they were invited to donate. But I realized later that I was talking to the, this capitalist country. And capitalist country in their own fog. Unless they get something privately themselves, they'll not indulge into it. So money has become prominent in a world of capitalism. That I realized when nobody sponsored for world peace, and everybody wants world peace. But they will not part with some of their huge billions and millions in the bank. At least he's got a plan for all the money he's raising. 'A billion dollars worth of peace for those who want peace.' What a nice man and he's got a beard and everything so he must be for real.

Subject: Elan Vital's call to Jagdeo's victims From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:20:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hidden away on EV's site is the following:- POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously. As it is unlikely any of the victims will find this, I intend giving EV a helping hand by publishing it a little more prominently on EPO. The funny thing is that this is under 'Policies', but instead of actually specifying any policies, they say that they have one for sexual harrassment or other forms of sexual abuse. They don't say what their policy is, or what their other policies are (after all policies is definitely plural). Maybe I'll write to them and ask. John. EV's sexual abuse policy www.elanvital.org/policies.html

Subject: Re: Elan Vital's call to Jagdeo's victims From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 06:38:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How interesting. I wonder if they offer compensation with an accompanying rider - that the victim signs a declaration promising not to publish any details of their abuse on any ex-premie website? A gagging order in other words. And I'd like to see the EV categorically the deny the existence of any gagging order whatsoever. I wonder if gagging orders are the norm in cases of compensation for sexual abuse? Livia

Subject: Yes, it needs a prominent place on EPO [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:36:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Anyone care to comment? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is something Dave has posted on AG. I think it's garbage and insulting and obviously I feel strongly enough about it to show everyone here. Dave, get lost. 'Church lady' my ass. Oh yeah, the post was called 'The rise and fall of exism'. Salam; there was a golden age of Exes. Having followed it on the net since the first tentative posts on a guestbook and later on a newsgroup and then web forums, I can see when the golden age of exes occured. It was from 1998 to 2001. It started with just a few people talking about Bob Mishler's interview which was online and soon grew into a torrent of people voicing their disillusion with Maha and most importantly, voicing their previously untold stories about the real Maharaji. The Golden Age of Exes ended shortly after the two Michaels spilled a sack load of beans and when the CAC attacks got underway. Now the online ex-premie presence feels very different to those times. Things have changed, the stupendous revelations about Maharaji are no longer news but are instead, common knowledge. Most importantly, the people who wanted out of the Maha cult have now left. What is left? Some church ladies on both sides arguing amongst themselves. The war is over. Now there is just some pockets of resistence here and there, some hand to hand fighting and snipers. Most of the army are back in their barracks or home on extended leave, maybe never to be recalled. Now the ex-premies have been divided by certain hard-line factions, there is even less need to enter into the fray. There is no unity of exes any more and like the Roman Empire, it has shrunk into a small faction of holy church ladies with ever more fervor and ferocousness, yet without the urgency of the original ex-premie movement. The war against Maha is over. Long live peace. As we said in the sixties, ''Just do your own thing, man.''

Subject: It ain't over . . . From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:25:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . until everyone involved with M&K have come to a point of full integrity and resolution. By that I mean we who were there and then must be here and now living fully in the present free from Goo-Goo mind warp. Rome wasn't built in a day and Goo-Goo Gaa-Gaa doesn't unravel in one burst of outrage. One only has to read Brian's beautiful post below or read any newcomer's story to see that there is value in keeping the doors open. True, smoking guns of the Dettmers, Donner and McDonald variety don't appear daily but us Church Ladies have found a way to retrieve our selves. We talk with each other and listen to each other's ecstacy and pain and thereby become more human. The PWK who come by are reminders of how difficult it has been to come this far. Sir Dave, as you were there when I was struggling with which side of the fence I was on, I have great fondness for your contributions. I was outraged by the CAC terrorism visited upon you. I wish only peace and good health to you. I haven't followed the AG politics at all so I can't comment on that. But I can speak up for the value of a nice cozy pub where us vets can see a friendly face and also get called on our BS if needed. It only makes us stronger in our resolve to be human beings. Meanwhile, I'm guardedly optimistic. In the best of world's, M will tell the truth and do a three-way with the lion and lamb. Not holding my breath, Richard, Golden Age Ex Class of 2001

Subject: Re: It ain't over . . . From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:59:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not over at all. I 've more respect for the people here now than ever before. I learn a lot about myself and sit back and just read. Lots of new exes have plenty to talk about with eachother and new stuff happens all the time. It's become civil and very comfortable to be here. I have been involved with the fighting on LG and AG. I don't like it (well once or twice I did):) It's gotten to a point that if I post anything on AG or LG I will automatically be demeaned by immature tactics on the part of certain posters whose names I'm not mentioning (not because I am afraid, but I don't want to draw them here). I'm no saint and never declared myself as such. However, when I see whole threads dedicated to ridiculing my mental health, you bet I will say something. In the short and long run it's not worth it to even look at AG anymore. Reading the crap there makes me think some posters have gone wacko (that's not a bona fide psychiatric term). I posted on AG that I think it's like the Hatfields and McCoys. Arguing for the sake of an argument forgotten is stupid and this one is so confused and distorted no one wins. A faction has been formed. One faction. The exes are not a faction, IMO. If some of those on AG and LG knew how infrequently I email Pat and Jim (they think we're some kind of team) they'd be very surprised. I'm not part of some weird and paranoid plot. In that faction people who previously posted here as exes are now joined with the premies on LG, who are delighted. They're all using eachother for some end which I can't figure out. It's subtle, but happening. I don't sense sincerity there as I do here. It's become fake and contrived on LG and AG. Furthermore, I never liked having a link from any of the forums to AG. I could understand it being there before Chuck started the Symposium, but I never felt comfortable with it. Until recently I never posted or looked at AG. If people want to have weird sex talk threads fine, but I have always been against a connection from here to there. I'm sure they have their fun and I'm not against that. I think that the Symposium is a much better alternative for Off-Topic posts than AG which, btw, I never before knew was an 'experiment in anarchy.' This forum has changed but as Richard said above there are many issues still to discuss and who knows what's next? Christ, the Mahareshi was just on Larry King. The most important part is the dialogue and friendship here. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: Sir Dave From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 08:04:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, Sir Dave is a Howard Hughes type figure. He sits in his mansion in North London, planning to redress the injustices of the world using only his internet connection. He lost touch with reality many years ago. He is surrounded by servants and sychophants, eager to fulfill his every need. He means no harm, but, not surprisingly, being a millionaire recluse, doesn't always have his finger on the pulse on the street. Anth the pauper in a hut.

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 06:45:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What on earth are you talking about? The debate here has never been more articulate, fascinating and illuminating. Methinks you are missing something. Down below only today someone posted that there's no infighting here at all right now - just a lot of increasing clarity. I for one fail to see why you have a problem with that. Perhaps you've just grown bored, but for those of us who are relatively new here, there's riveting stuff to read each day. Maybe you need to join another cult, stay with it a few years, then leave it and start up a new exes website. Then you can do it all over again with a completely new set of brainwashing to deconstruct! There's nothing more boring than the bored. Livia

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Scott T. To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:45:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia: Down below only today someone posted that there's no infighting here at all right now - just a lot of increasing clarity. Well, infighting isn't allowed and one posts anything that doesn't agree with the primary take on things at one's own risk, but I'm open. What are you more clear about? I mean, surely you can be clear about it? I should add that I don't mean this as a challenge. I haven't been reading F7 in some time, so am not aware of what's been going on. Are there new insights into the cult phenomenon, or just this cult in particular? Has Maharaji been proven to be suffering from a chronic brain dysfunction? I wonder if strenuous exercise would help? I'd be willing to race him in a 10K rowing matchup, provided there are monitors to ensure he doesn't cheat. I mean, I'm spotting him 10 years so it could hardly be more fair. --Scott

Subject: Re: Anyone care to comment? From: Bolly Shri To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:26:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on Livia, Though the term 'church lady ' has some apeal. Sometimes I go to midnight mass at the catholic church. In my formative years the boys did all the front line stuff, being made in the image of god and all. Now it's abit of a free for all. All those good catholic girls now sporting bifocals and zimmer frames cruise around the alter doing all sorts of things, lighting candles, saying blessings etc. For someone who lapsed 40 years ago it's both interesting and entertaining. Call you soon I've been a bit off recently, love Bolly

Subject: For what it's worth - this From: Sir Dave To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 08:11:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am thinking of a faction led by two. Namely Jim and PatC. And it's not just me but also a lot of other people who have experienced this. It's fine when people agree with the said people but when one disagrees, one is subjected to a tirade of insults that are undeserved. So what happens? Those insulted people leave Forum 7 and either come to Anything Goes or go to Life is Great. Then Jim and PatC come to Anything Goes or Life is Great and continue to insult the people who've just left, with more abuse. What is there to discuss? Nothing, because Jim and PatC won't agree with this (based on previous experience) and no further dialogue will be productive.

Subject: Re: For what it's worth - this From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:00:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, that's not really how it is at all. It's not to do with agreeing with Jim or Pat, it's to do with engaging in intelligent debate, with well reasoned arguments. It's to do with answering questions, not evading them. I've been reading and posting here for a few months and after initially considering Jim a bit over cynical, I've come round to realising that he's a very clear-headed person who knows how to argue intelligently and persuasively. I've also come to the conclusion that he's probably a very kind person too, pretty much the opposite to the way he's seen over on LG. If presenting your arguments succinctly and debating comprehensively with people who disagree with you amounts to creating a faction, then I think you've missed something, Dave. Livia

Subject: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:37:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what I just said to Scott over on Symp (I can start using that forum more now that I've got an easy name for it!). Scott was suggesting that there really is some sort of 'factionalism' but, as I say below, people that abandon the very goals of the shared enterprise and lose sight of the issues aren't a faction so much as just drop-outs. Many people have dropped out of active involvement here. Guys like me are the exception. Hardly any, though, have changed their critical opinions about Maharaji. But only these new guys, just smouldering with anger from their interpersonal conflicts with some exes, are so angry they're forgetting what it was all about for them in the first place. Too bad they aren't amenable to rational discussion but they're not. Although, wouldn't it be wonderful if someone could talk with them. It won't be me. I've tried and they won't talk with me. But if anyone else wants to try to really get to the bottom of things with them, all power to you. Anyway, here's what I said to Scott: Scott, All that's happened is that some exes have, for their own various reasons, not gotten along with others of us. They've tried to find some point of honour as a rallying call or principle to gild their grievance but there isn't any. End of story. Now, if you don't believe me, and are interested, please, try to explore the issue with any of them. You'll see fast enough there's nothing there. Nothing, nothing, nothing. But hey, maybe that's just MY opinion. Go ahead, Scott, take a shot at it. See if you can get Deborah, for example, to explain how her dissatisfaction with the denizens of F7 is anything more than whining over not being able to lead the charge against , no not Maharaji, but Michael Nouri, through the pages of the National Enquirer. Or ask Selene what the hell she's on about because, really, with her, as far as I can tell, it's just nothing. As you say, she pissed me off joining the monkeys to jump on me for trying to talk with a premie in a civil, reasonable way, open discussion between two consenting adults kind of thing. You're damn right I demanded an explanation. But then I'm Jim, the asshole lawyer or something so no explanation for me, bucko! As for Salam, well, what's there to say? You've tried talking with him. Poor guy, I guess. Now, there's another set of angry or hostile exes and those are the ones who think that Katie's been somehow forced out of the picture. The friends of Katie crew. Well, sorry, but that's all bullshit too. Katie is as free and welcome to post as anyone. But, like anyone, she's going to be challenged on controversial ideas. She doesn't like that. She'd rather stay in her own self-inmposed exile rather than have to explain some of the insulting things she's said about the forum and exes at times. Just like Brian. He's in self-imposed exile too because, as I reckon, he did stuff like call us an 'angry mob' to Charles Glasser of all people, back when Glasser was attacking our integrity wholesale. You're damn right that was a betrayal of the first order. Brian held a tight-fisted grip on his gig as the 'webmaster' of EPO. That he would say something like that was appalling. So now you have bizarre revisionism, my favorite instance being Robyn sympathizing with Mili for his being badgered on the ex-premie forum such that he couldn't get a word in edgewise. It's not a numbers game, as you know, it's about the truth. The exes have it on their side because that's their orientation, to seek out, explore and share the truth about the strange cult we were all in. Many, many people have benefitted from this collective effort and nothing these poor, disgruntled types can do will or can change that. You know, it's funny, I asked Deborah a couple of times how any of her views of Maharaji, the truth about Maharaji, change if, for example, it turns out that I, the person who kept her from literally having no place to live, not once but twice, by lending her money and never pressuring her to return it, by inviting her into my home, introducing her to my friends -- I invited her to my office summer party, for Christ's sake, and Laurie had her over for her Christmas one -- really am the terrible person she says I am. Unforunately, she won't answer. Pity, because, as she's enjoying trying to set up some presence on LG along with the premies, it's a damn interesting question. Anyway, no the lines haven't blurred, there is no factionalism, because that implies that people still even interested in the issues have serious difference in addressing them. Deborah, Selene, Salam, these people aren't the slightest bit interested in those issues right now. Faction? Faction of what? And, really, can you imagine how different things would be if the National Enquirer HAD run that ridiculous story? Deborah would be happier than a pig in shit, relishing her great accomplishment. Oh yeah, I'd love to have her answer re how any of her conflict with some exes changes the facts about Maharaji. Tell you what, why don't you ask her? :)

Subject: Re: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:17:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: I answered your post over on Symp, but just wanted to comment on: as I say below, people that abandon the very goals of the shared enterprise and lose sight of the issues aren't a faction so much as just drop-outs. Nihilism is one of the classic factions that's symptomatic of the dynamic I'm referring to. So, it's not *just* dropouts. It's more like: Yeah, here are the dropouts too. I don't think you can really seriously argue that other factions haven't developed where the members aren't even talking to one another, beyond this prototypical nihilist stuff. I feel nasty even bringing it up, since there's a lot that I probably don't even know about, and don't *want* to know about, so I'm not going to rattle off a rollcall. Just stop and think about it for a few moments. Anyway, you haven't convinced me I'm not pitching over the plate. --Scott

Subject: Re: My post to Scott re 'factionalism' From: Jim To: Scott T. Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 01:23:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I convinced myself. Strike three! No, just kidding. Scott, of course I'm right. Next? Okay, okay .... Scott, did you see the definition of 'faction' I clipped from the online dictionary? 1 : a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking : CLIQUE 2 : party spirit especially when marked by dissension I don't see where there's any room for drop-outs. I mean, don't forget, these guys aren't going anywhere near the issues that brign us together in the first place. Hell, they're so much not doing that that they're camping with the 'enemy' so to speak on the tacit understanding that, because of their personal antipathies, they don't give a damn about any of this anymore. What sayest thou?

Subject: Quit pulling my leg From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 08:12:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gave a more complete answer on Symp. Basically, it's a social/political theory so doesn't rest on Webster, anyway. But it conforms to the Webster definition. 'In government' isn't definitive, with an introductory 'as' so the parenthetical is just illustrative. And it's certainly a contentious and self-seeking clique marked by dissension. Quit pulling my leg. --Scott

Subject: Public versus private From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:27:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, Sir Dave, what you're really saying is that Jim and I like to argue in public and that we have upset your ''experiment in anarchy'' on AG. I've been reading the ex-forums for nearly two years and AG has always been a backwater, an in-club where exes who are bored with the cult discussion go to hunt ducks and talk in German accents with multiple fake names. It is a PRIVATE chatroom with no relevance to the public on-line presence of exes and should probably be password protected as most of what happens there should only happen between consenting adults in private. Okay, nothing wrong with that BUT you wanted links to it from other ex forums and wanted the nonsense there to be part of our PUBLIC presence on-line. It was fine until you did that. The moment you did that, it lost it's right to privacy and sure I came over and started arguing because I was being attacked there during the Debacle. It also lost it's right to privacy when it's users started to attack me and my business. It is not a forum with which I wish to be associated publicly in connection with my anti-cult presence on the net. Get a room for what you want to do :P - I mean a private chatroom - because what the disgruntled are grunting is not exactly the sort of stuff to be done in public and nothing I wish to have my name associated with.

Subject: Re: For what it's worth - this From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:44:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, I have seen you make some stupid calls over the years but this one takes the cake. I'm just sitting here scratching my figurative head and wondering how on earth you could be so ... oh sorry, that'd be name-calling, wouldn't it? I would offer to run over the actual history of Deb's, Selene's or Salam's dyspepsia with you but it'd be a waste of time. You asked on Symposium what Selene had done to contribute to any conflict or misunderstanding, pledging to defend her to the death or something, noble knight that you are and all that. (Very funny, you're a knight but not an ex -- labels being so misleading such as they are...). But when I answered you just glazed over any of my points proving to me that you didn't really want to discuss it, your mind was made up. Very disappointing, Dave, very. The only real tool we have to understand each other and make any sense of anything we talk or care about here is rational discourse. One of the problems common amongst Salam, Deborah and Selene is that each of them, for various reasons, can't or won't engage in same. Deborah has taken on this bizarre thing where she'll talk about people like Pat or me but she won't talk to us. Hence, she dances around LG now trying her best to get our attention, lying, twisting, saying whatever, just to get a rise out of us but never, ever having the guts or maturity to actually discuss things with us. Indeed, just yesterday I noticed a post where she actually gloated about how much fun it was doing that. No kidding, it's on LG, if you haven't seen it already. The last time Deborah actually talked with me was to call me a liar for disclosing that --get this -- she threatened to have someone killed and I had to scream at her to get her to finally take that back. (I've since disclosed that that was PatC she was talking about). She called me a liar but, as I've said, I have witnesses and it was Deborah that was lying about that. In fact, she even tried to explain away that threat once, trying to assert that it didn't really matter seeing as she didn't write it or something. (You can get all sorts of wacky legal advice and opinions from Deb. It's all over LG). So she called me a liar and has refused to talk with me since. Selene, likewise, joined in with the monkeys over on LG who started throwing nuts and bananas at me when I was having an otherwise, ahem, fruitful discussion with a premie named Isabella there. Just so you know, it was an interesting dialogue. Isabella had last conceded that, at first blush, someone seeing Maharaji with his premies and seeing them line up to kiss his feet as they did at Amaroo last month, would likely think they were seeing a cult. However, she said, if they examined the matter more closely, looked below the surface, as it were, they'd learn otherwise. I then asked her how that person could examine it more closely if Maharaji is going to sidestep every substantial question as he did, for example, in the silly Leaders Magazine interview we've been looking at recently. Indeed, wouldn't the very resistance the 'group' had to sharing solid, unvarnished information about its past or present suggest even further to that inquiring person that this was a cult? Isabella never got to answer that before the monkeys went crazy. I was threatened, flamed, ridiculed, you name it. And who should join in the pile-up but our own Selene? She posted something obtuse, and then when I asked her what she meant, she tittered like a little school girl, showed me the hand, so to speak, and laughed and laughed and laughed about how she, like Deborah, didn't have to answer anything I asked. As for Salam, well, look, let's be honest. You've read his posts for years now. Somewhere in that crusty, coarse, despondent and surly head of his is an operating brain. There must be seeing as he makes his living doing some sort fo computer something. But then, come to think of it, so does CD. :) Anyway, Salam has been imploding into his own private hell of confusion for some time now. He's understandably at great odds with me, I think, because I support Israel, at least to the extent that they're entitled to defend themselves, etc. (please, no political stuff here. I'll gladly take it up with anyone on Symp.) Hence, I'm a dirty 'Zionest' or however Salam misspells it. That's right up there with Pat's faggotality or something. There is NO talking with Salam. I've tried. When he got into some trouble of his own a year or so ago, I and others were there to help him work through it. Too bad he forgets what real friendship is all about. So now these guys have chosen to swirl all sorts of stale, cotton candy silliness about us, about the forum, about anything. But so long as they refuse to argue or debate their allegations fairly, they're no better than the various cult members we've tried to discuss matters with over time. No different. Same problem, different bottle. And you, Dave, can throw your lot in with those who like to accuse because it satsifies a limbic system impulse or, you can choose to discuss things. Up to you. I must laugh, though, at the fact that you're already griping about the fact that Deborah threw some sort of paranoid allegation at you, apparently, which she never bothered to explain or attempt to resolve. Mind you, so long as you can denounce me and PatC, I'm sure you guys will easily overcome that little difference and will find much in common between you. Just like she, Selene and Salam will find much in common with all the premies they're now going to -- what? Discuss Maharaji with? That's a laugh -- over on LG. The forum IS strong, Dave, because of the process here, not some hierarchy, not even its history. If you want to turn your back on it, no biggie.

Subject: Don't count me out From: Brian Smith To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:12:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not provided Message: Now the ex-premies have been divided by certain hard-line factions, there is even less need to enter into the fray. There is no unity of exes any more and like the Roman Empire, it has shrunk into a small faction of holy church ladies with ever more fervor and ferocousness, yet without the urgency of the original ex-premie movement. I am sorry Dave but I have to disagree with your observations here particularly the notion that there is no unity amongst exe's or need to enter the fray as you describe it. I have been out of pocket lately due to some serious health concerns that plus the recent death of a sibling has dealt a devastating emotional blow on top of an already debilitating physical condition. I fully intend to come out of extended leave once my health improves, right now I just do not have that much energy reserve. I have to tell you that there still exists a special commitment and unity amongst ex's, I myself have personally been humbled by the genuine love, the kind thoughts and energy sent my way by many new friends I have made here. I have felt firsthand that the same unifying sense of purpose amongst us exes is as alive and well as it has ever been. These many small gestures speak volumes and I think that one need only look to the actions themselves as a barometer measurement of the humanitarian attributes many exe's share paricularly when compared to the reactions from my decades old premie friends. Which was zilch, nada, nothing, even after all these years not one single contact. What does that say about the value of this so called self knowledge having any benefit whatsoever on becoming a more compassionate and self adjusted person as it is purported to do via recent testimonials. When old (cult member) friends shun you in time of need what it says to me is that self knowledge seemingly has no value when it comes to relating to one another with differences set aside and allowing old friendships to be honored. A small gesture of this nature would seemingly be a tribute to any benefit of what self knowledge offers, but instead the shunning suggests a far different effect, one of limitation and secret conspiracy, restained and controlled not by love but by fear and retribution. On the contrary here with my new ex friends, I have been deeply touched by the outpouring of love and support from these courageous and beautiful people from this forum who have called or emailed to let me know that I am appreciated and missed. I have recieved many messages of love, strength and courage by so many of you whose names are far too numerous to mention. You folks are new friends whom I have all just recently met over the course of the last year and a half both on line and off. This again illustrates by comparison the difference in response from my many decades old premie friends. The premie community where I live in is very small (which one isn't anymore) and tight, this is a community that I dedicated over 29 years to. News always travels fast in these circles and it never takes long for these folks to pass around info via the old phone tree. News about my status, both as an ex and as a person who is going through some difficult life challenges right now is common knowledge. After 29 years of commitment not only as a former cult member but also as a long term friend to many of these community members you would think that I might have recieved some acknowledgement out of respect for our long term relationship. A person of that supposed elevated level of self awareness should be able to find the inspiration to set aside differences and reach out to an old friend. I can't help wondering why this highly acclaimed self knowledge can't even create a small breakthrough in dealing with one another on the most basic of human level of friendship. Such an action would be an exemplary example of self awareness and a true testiment to the possible value of the self knowledge experience you would think. So what is the cult position instead of compassion and respect for time honored friendship? It's the cold shoulder, persona non gratis treatment. Even after the many years shared going through the same things together not one old premie friend has called so far. So what does this say? It looks to me like this whole business of self knowledge from the rawat school of initiation does not include compassion or any point of reference beyond the conditions accepted or valued by the cult. At this point as an ex, I have no further value to them as a cult member or beyond that even as a friend, no matter how far back we go. It goes to show as well that this particular belief structure, or experience or whatever the acceptable term used today to describe ones involvement in it serves to divide and separate, not accept and include. A rather lowly testament to the attributes one would hope to garner from an alledged master of the so called art of self knowledge. But so far not one old premie friend has contacted me, I do not view these people as the enemy. I harbor no ill will at all against my old premie friends and aquaintances. The enemy is ignorance and the target of my concern for that is the perpetrator of the ignorance, rawat himself. On the other hand, thanks to all of you ex's here who have been so kind and considerate to me lately, your compassion and humanity represents the highest tribute to as real a self knowledge and unity as I have ever experienced. I have been gifted a greater sense of unity and friendship now from all of you than I can ever recall experiencing as a cult member. Brian, A golden age ex, class of 2001

Subject: Brian, A golden age ex class of 2001 From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:34:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said, Brian. Sir Dave is just pissed because his fan club's been routed. Have you seen Absolutely Fabulous yet?

Subject: Not yet Pat, From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 05:34:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Pat, It nice to get back out here, even if for just a brief hit and run, I just don't have the gas in the tank to get after it like I used to. It's nice to be anywhere considering that last week the medication my doctors prescribed to counteract the pharmacutical induced anemia side effects from the ribivirin/interferon elevated my blood pressure to a stoke zone of 219/115. It's under control now but it was touch and go for a while there. Yikes! I am going out in search of Absolutely Fabulous tomorrow, that and Bubble Boy which sounds like a riot as well. Any suggestions as to where I might locate these? Blockbuster here did not have either title available last time I checked. I think about you and Chuck and Andy often and that exquisite meal that you prepared for Gerry and I. If you ever come up this way, make sure you guys get over here so that I can return the favor, or at least collaborate on a mutually prepared culinary creation. It is good to hear from you,

Subject: Here is SF we have From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:10:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....a video store (Le Video) that specializes in unusual and hard to get videos. Blockbusters doesn't have Ab Fab. Now I wish I hadn't recorded over my tapes. Do you have some specialty video store there? that carries Brit vids? If you do then get Mapp and Lucia too. I'm sorry to hear you had another setback. You know I'm rooting for you. Lots of love to you.

Subject: I'll comment From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is complete garbage. Where is the evidence that all those who want to leave the cult have left? We still get regular new people posting on the forum, and writing to me as webmaster. EPO's page reads are as high as ever (and I'm sure it's not the same people re-reading the site). The 'stupendous' revelations about Rawat are still as stupendous as ever for those just coming to the site, and are still a complete mystery for those who don't understand English or French. I'll grant that things feel different for active exes who have been through the last year, as the attacks on exes and EPO do leave a bitter taste in the mouth. I remember telling Jim I had no enemies. He corrected me at the time, but it took a little while for me to understand that it was true. Regarding the 'hard-line factions', there are those who seriously want to discuss the facts about Maharaji, and those who don't or can't. Hardly hard-line factions. Yes, Dave's post is insulting to us, but then Dave has always felt superior to other exes, to the extent that he recently said he would feel like an alien if he ever met a group of exes. Sorry, Dave, you're well out of order here, son. John.

Subject: I'll comment too From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:59:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have never thought that I was superior, JHB. I never implied that and have never thought that. Just that I wouldn't fit in. Just like I never fitted into being a premie. I didn't think my original post that Jim reposted would have caused such offence. I am mild compared to some people who post insults to other people. Yes, I'd say I was very mild. Hardly a gross insult is it, using words like ''church ladies'' when there have been far worse insults being layed on some ex-premies; for instance, suggesting that they are mentally ill. And those insults have not been made by CAC premies but by operators of this forum and for no good reason other than to insult and hurt. Now I find that particularly disgusting. But don't worry, I won't cause a stir. I do know when to stop. I also know when to walk away.

Subject: One man's meat is another man's..... From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:48:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below Nigel says this: ''Don't know about you, but it seems to me this forum has never been in better shape in the whole of the last four years. On-topic - with appropriate semi-OT moments - minimal friction between exes, and even minimal interventions from hostile anon premies (who you instantly know who they are anyway and illustrate all the worst characteristics of pewkiness).'' Now I read that you think that the ex-premie online scene has passed into the Kali Yuga. The only thing that has passed into the Kali Yuga is your little experiment in anarchy. Though why you would want to experiment in something that is already rife on the net I don't know. Anarchy is for bored, irresponsible, anti-social, solipsistic and unsubtle idiots like the ones you are defending and who are now busy blowing air-kisses to the anonymous cultweasels on LG. BTW no-one ''suggested'' that your experiments were ''mentally ill.'' That information was not only volunteered by them but flaunted at every opportunity. It was their presence on this forum two years ago screaming ''Rawat Sucks'' which kept me and at least two other exes from joining in on F5. It was not until Michael Dettmers calm and measured tones dispelled some of that mental illness that you have seen the ranks of exes who post double in the past year. I've got a few other bones to pick with you, Sir Dave, but I'll do it on the Symposium.

Subject: proven his point.............nt From: I think you have just To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:53:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...

Subject: This ZB thing is Quiet From: PatC To: ZB Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:55:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This cowardly and creepy anonymous cultweasel has been stalking Jim over four forums with inane lawyer jokes. It uses one of the IP numbers that Quiet used. Funny how Quiet disappeared when I mentioned that he may be someone else.

Subject: Re: This ZB thing is Quiet From: ZB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 21:05:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey PatC

Subject: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 12:06:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, there's no color pictures and she didn't pay for publication, but here's a news story about a real life battle our own Marianne waged and won... Well done, lass www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000033267may11.story

Subject: Whatever From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 21:22:56 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Oh boy great, a convicted rapist/murderer is getting released on technicalities. ''But he had a crank habit, that made him mentally unbalanced, and since that wasn't brought up the whole trial is fucked' Oh, ok, that's fair(?). Screw the relatives of the woman who was murdered. Fuck em, capital punishment is barbaric. I'm liberal, except in cases like this. This stuff makes me sooo mad! I could be wrong, though, I guess?

Subject: That's why they call it a criminal justice system [nt] From: Dep To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:27:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Whatever From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:31:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not a technicality, Marshall. He was on trial for his life. His lawyer did nothing to defend him. He's not getting out -- he's getting a new trial. What is wrong with that?

Subject: Hmmmmm... From: Marshall To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:13:16 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Marianne, The article from the L.A. Times contains this, 'The 9th Circuit said that Jennings, 52, should either be retried or released.' Doesn't that mean he might be released? Somewhere you say that there is evidence showing your client may be innocent, but the paper says. 'The 9th Circuit cited several facts linking Jennings to the murder. He had known Newman for much of his life, having lived next door to her at his parents' home. In addition, strapping tape found in Newman's home bearing Jennings' thumb and palm prints matched tape found in his pickup truck. Semen consistent with Jennings' blood type was found on Newman's body. And Jennings volunteered facts about the crime to friends and the police that had not been made public.' You have to admit that doesn't sound too good, 'volunteered facts about the crime to friends and the police that had not been made public' How did he do that, if he didn't do it? Finally this part troubles me. 'He(the defense lawyer) did not seek appointment of additional experts to evaluate Jennings' mental state or the possible effects of methamphetamine on Jennings, even though he knew a syringe had been found in Jennings' car and Oliver knew his client had reported to the police that he had been 'strung out on ... crank for over a year.' Is this supposed to matter? So what if he was a crank junkie? That's no excuse. So the state should spend good money after bad because some poor abused drug addict's lawyer didn't mention a syringe? We(the state) should re-habilitate him at enourmous expense after a new trial with a 'twinkie defense' Remember that? The guy who got aquitted of murder because he ate a twinkie? I don't know, I don't like it.

Subject: Re: Hmmmmm... From: Sir Dave To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:43:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall, I had the same feelings as you when I read about that.

Subject: Differing opinions From: Marianne To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:40:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall and Sir Dave: I suspect many people have the same reaction as you do when you read about this case. It's understandable. You don't dwell in the trenches of capital punishment every day as I do. It is not for most. This case came out a certain way because the trial lawyer did not investigate and defend Michael Jennings at all. There are many cases across the country where people have been convicted based on supposedly unimpeachable eye witness testimony, only to have been shown to be absolutely innocent and released from death row. Over the course of several years, 13 people have been released from death row in Illinois -- one person who was within an hour of execution -- because they were shown to be innocent. Does that make you any more confident in the decisions that are made about these cases? The comments in the court's opinion reflect the state of the evidence based on the lawyer's lack of investigation and preparation. There are many troubling forensic issues in the case, and a real question about whether Michael Jennings is the perpetrator. I know this because I have been representing him for 13 years, and have done far more to investigate it than ever occurred to the trial attorney. In any event, you are free to disagree with me about any and all of this. I have seen many injustices committed in these cases, this case among them, and will continue to fight to right those wrongs. Marianne

Subject: Retrial is a certainty From: Marianne To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:01:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also Marshall, the DA has told the press that he intends to retry the case.

Subject: Do a poll, Sir Dave From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:04:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the bet that most people will tell you that they also had the same ''feelings'' when they first read about it? I know I did. That's why I deliberately wrote that those ''feelings'' were what my ''heart'' would tell me but that my mind would tell me to tread with caution and always leave room for doubt. Now you know why I don't rely on the judgments of my heart. Feelings are not rational and definitely not something to take into account when death is the penalty. It's a bit final.

Subject: Murder's got a mental component From: Jim To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 02:26:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marshall, Not all homicides are murder. There's the physical act and then there's the mental state. I know nothing about this case but what you and I both can read here but I wouldn't be surprised if the live issues have more to do with the guy's mind than his actions. If you were in charge, would you change that? Would you make all homicides the same crime, same penalty?

Subject: Re: Murder's got a mental component From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 13:05:46 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Believe me, you don't want to know what I would do if 'I was in charge'. Just kidding. I agree all murders aren't the same, however this particular case we're discussing involves rape and robbery as well. Lock him up and throw away the key? Cut off his...? I don't know.

Subject: irreversable decisions... From: Chuck S. To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:55:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't like the idea of murders getting out of jail any more than you do. But then that's assuming that the guy actually did it, AND that he will be released. This news article hasn't gone into any great detail, it's just a summary of previous allegations and prior findings (which could be erroneous). Examining the details is what a trial is for. A new trial will re-examine the evidence, taking into account all the facts available. Far too many people in this country have been executed, and then found innocent after the fact because of new evidence. It is so wrong, and nothing can put it right again. While I believe in being tough on crime, the death penalty is too final. If this man was given the death sentence by a jury based on inaccurate and/or incomplete information, is that right? I worked in law offices for years, and I've seen that things are often not what they appear to be. Sometimes you have to dig for the truth. Everyone deserves a fair trial, no matter who they are or what they appear to have done. While I certainly can appreciate the way you feel about it, I'm sure there is a lot more information to consider than what a brief news article summary will tell us. Things aren't always what they appear to be in a news info-bite. The details can make all the difference. Insuring a fair trial doesn't mean nobody cares about the victim or the pain caused to her family, it just means we care about knowing the complete truth as much as humanly possible, before making irreversable life and death decisions.

Subject: Hear, hear! From: Nige'n'Moley To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:48:07 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: State murder in cold blood is gross at the best of times. When the perpetrator is clearly mentally unbalanced, doubly so. We're proud to count Marianne among our friends - not least because you should see what she's like on a night out on the town...

Subject: Good one, Marianne From: Jim To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 16:17:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent. By the way, would you ever consider doing the retrial? I know you normally don't but, well, if I had this much positive mo' on a case and knew it as well as you obviously do, I'd be tempted. Anyway, congratulations indeed.

Subject: You beat me to it, Gerry From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:22:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, congratulations, Marianne. You know that I think it's a controversial case - the kind where my mind says, ''No matter how bad the guy was, I don't like the state to have the power of the death penalty,'' and my heart says, ''Bring back the stocks - this guy is a creep.'' But, no matter what, I do not like the death penalty. It's barbaric and I am very pleased that you won. Here's the story from the San Francisco Chronicle: Court vacates death sentence, orders new murder trial DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer, Friday, May 10, 2002 (05-10) 16:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal appeals court Friday overturned the death sentence and conviction of a Contra Costa County man charged with repeatedly stabbing and raping an elderly neighbor in 1982. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ordered a new trial for Michael Jennings on grounds his attorney did not present evidence that Jennings' drug use and mental problems 'contributed' to the brutal slaying of a 63-year-old woman. Jennings, now 52, was convicted of raping, robbing and stabbing to death Violet Newman in her Concord home. Newman was an acquaintance and lived near Jennings' family. It is the seventh time this year the San Francisco-based court has vacated a California death sentence and, in doing so, overturned California Supreme Court rulings sanctioning the executions. California is home to the nation's most clogged death row, with more than 600 condemned men and women. Ten have been executed since executions resumed in 1992. The California attorney general's office said it would ask the circuit to revisit its decision. County prosecutors said they may retry him if the appeals court does not change its mind. Jennings remains in prison pending resolution of the attorney general's appeal. A three-judge panel of the appeals court ruled that Jennings' attorney, Michael Oliver, did not put on evidence that his client was a drug addict, was abused as a child and was mentally unstable. Taken together, the court reasoned, he may not have had the mental capacity to be legally responsible for a capital offense, the court ruled. 'Mr. Oliver's ineffective assistance prejudiced Mr. Jennings by depriving him of the opportunity to help his counsel make informed judgments as to his defense and potentially to have a defense presented that would have negated the mental state necessary for a first-degree murder conviction,' Judge Betty B. Fletcher wrote. Oliver, who no longer is an active member of the California State Bar, could not be reached for comment. Jennings' new attorney, Gilbert Eisenberg, applauded the decision. He said his client was hallucinating and hearing voices following a methamphetamine binge days before the woman was killed. The case is Jennings v. Woodford, 00-99008.

Subject: Thanks all and questions about guilt From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:13:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you all for your kind comments. I have represented this client since 1989, so this win is particularly gratifying. He gets a new trial on guilt/innocence and then penalty, if the case gets that far. Although a reading of the news coverage suggests otherwise, there is a real question about whether my client is the perpetrator. These issues will all get fleshed out in a new trial. Marianne

Subject: questions about guilt From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:22:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Although a reading of the news coverage suggests otherwise, there is a real question about whether my client is the perpetrator. These issues will all get fleshed out in a new trial.'' That is one of the strongest arguments against the death penalty (apart from the barbarism and the danger of giving the state that power) - it is too final. Despite advances in DNA and other forensic technology we still can make mistakes - like the lab tech here in the Bay Area who screwed up her work. Well, those weren't mistakes but crimes on her part which may have condemned many an innocent person.

Subject: Re: questions about guilt From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 15:26:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actual Innocence by Barry Scheck, Peter Neufeld and Jim Dwyer is an excellent book about how innocent people end up on death row and the work involved to get them released. Tom and I both read it and were amazed at the work that defense attorneys have to undo in order to get a fair trial for their clients. It's a quick read but very educational about the topic of the death penalty, which I am against for any reason. Actual Innocence www.commoncouragepress.com/scheck_innocence.html

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Roger eDrek To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 12:26:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Indeed!

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Barbara To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:00:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kudos, Marianne. I have a hard copy of the article if you'd like me to send it to you. Ciao

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Cynthia To: Barbara Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:38:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good work again, Marianne.

Subject: Re: Marianne, you tell'em, girl! From: Gail To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:02:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Congratulations. I'm impressed!

Subject: Anyone know Judy Pasternak? From: Mirror To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 03:10:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found she wrote several critical articles in 1985 in the LA Times concerning M's increasing use of his helicopter platform. Perhaps she would be interested in EPO? Just an idea... Mirror

Subject: Mirror is this it? From: Thorin To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:14:02 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.co.uk Message: Mirror Is this what you are looking for? Notice the neat piece of revisinism that Linda Gross engages in even way back in 1985! Then Maharaji dropped his ties with the Divine Light organization and settled full time at the Malibu estate, Gross said. He continues to lecture around the world on self-awareness, however, and needs the helicopter mostly for travel between Los Angeles International Airport and his home, the attorney said. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use JUDY PASTERNAK Times Staff Writer 541 words 7 July 1985 Los Angeles Times Home 1 English (Copyright, The Times Mirror Company; Los Angeles Times 1985 All Rights Reserved) The one-time 'perfect master' of the Divine Light Mission has been denied permission from the county's Regional Planning Commission to triple the number of helicopter landings annually at his Malibu mountain-ridge estate. Maharaji-the professional name now used by Prem Pal Singh Rawat, formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji-can continue descending from the skies to his landing pad 12 times a year, the annual limit imposed for five years in April, 1983. Six landings were originally allowed in 1980 because Maharaji agreed to install a 45,000-gallon emergency water storage and pumping system that would be available to county Fire Department helicopters. But planning commissioners rejected, by a 3-1 vote Wednesday, Maharaji's request to increase the limit to 36. The majority said it was constrained by a commission policy adopted in September, 1984, that forbids additional copter flights except for those that provide a public benefit. 'First, you wanted six; then you went to 12; now you come back and want 36,' said commission Vice Chairman Sadie Clark to Maharaji's attorney, Linda Gross. 'I can absolutely see no reason why this is necessary. We cannot favor one applicant over another, and there's not any justification for this.' Maharaji's need for more flights 'has to do with a change in circumstances,' Gross said. Until the spring of 1984, the one-time guru was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, off Trancas Canyon 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway. He and his family visited there a few times a year but they also spent time in Miami and abroad. Then Maharaji dropped his ties with the Divine Light organization and settled full time at the Malibu estate, Gross said. He continues to lecture around the world on self-awareness, however, and needs the helicopter mostly for travel between Los Angeles International Airport and his home, the attorney said. Gross said the firefighting equipment at the helipad should qualify as a public benefit. She said that Maharaji also intends to place utility lines underground near his estate, to minimize the danger to copters flying over Trancas Canyon. But when questioned by Commissioner Delta Murphy, Gross said that Maharaji would continue to allow county access to the emergency equipment even if the limit remained at 12 flights. Then Murphy asked about burying the utility lines. 'If it's really a safety factor, wouldn't he want to do it now? Is it predicated on additional flights?' Gross said it was not. Only Commissioner Norma Bard supported the increase, saying few helipads provided the added fire protection that Maharaji's does. 'I do not regard this as precedent-setting,' she said. 'I don't think we will ever find a similar situation.' A representative of the county Fire Department, Capt. Jerry Peskett, said Maharaji's helipad is 'acceptable, but not necessary' for battling blazes in the brush-covered Malibu hills. That led Commission Chairman Stanley Gould to say, 'I can see nothing to gain by granting the additional flights.' Gross said she did not know if Maharaji would appeal the decision to the county Board of Supervisors. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Malibu 160 words 2 May 1985 Los Angeles Times Home 2 English (Copyright, The Times Mirror Company; Los Angeles Times 1985 All Rights Reserved) The Regional Planning Commission will discuss in June whether to allow Maharaji-who was known as Guru Maharaj Ji when he headed the Divine Light Mission-to triple the number of helicopter landings at his Malibu mountain-ridge mansion. Maharaji is permitted helicopter landings at his helipad 12 times a year, but has asked for the increase because he is now living full time at his estate, above Trancas Canyon, according to his attorney, Linda Gross. Until a year ago, he also spent time in Miami and traveled more extensively, Gross said. Some of his neighbors are opposing the request, expressing concerns about the dangers of a helicopter when strong winds blow in the canyon. In April, the commission's zoning board was unable to decide on a recommendation and the full commission decided Wednesday to hear the case. Richard Frazier, supervising regional planner, said the hearing will probably be in late June. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- also another little article I found not related to helicopters :) Guru Maharaji, 17, self-proclaimed 'perfect master' from India, assists in... By LAURIE JOHNSTON 44 words 11 March 1975 New York Times Abstracts Pg. 41, Col. 6 English c. 1975 New York Times Company Guru Maharaji, 17, self-proclaimed 'perfect master' from India, assists in delivery of his 1st child by natural childbirth in Malibu, Calif. His wife is former Marolyn Johnson (S).

Subject: Re: Anyone know Judy Pasternak? From: PatC To: Mirror Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 03:40:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know her whereabouts now but will do a search on the net. Hopefully somebody who knows her better than I do will contact her. That's very interesting. Thanks, Mirror.

Subject: LA Times Archives... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 11:39:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just did a quick search on LA Times archives and came up with two hits. You have to pay to get the ''whole'' story, but they are there. This link won't go directly to the articles, but hit search and they come up. Cynthia Maharaji's Helicopter pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/

Subject: Yogananda was different... From: Mirror - And I always believed that To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 02:44:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exerpts from: THE DEVOTEE'S SON and EXHUMING THE TRUTH By Ron Russell New Times L.A. July 5, 2001 Ben Erskine believes he's the love child of Swami Paramahansa Yogananda. If he's right, the L.A.-based Self-Realization Fellowship should be worried. Lorna Erskine says she knew from the day she met her husband that there was something special about him. Ben Erskine didn't have a formal education and yet seemed to know everything. 'He's quiet, contemplative, not the least bit egotistical, yet self-assured and straightforward,' she says. And so it did not surprise her that -- before asking her to marry him in 1958 -- Erskine confided that there was something she should know. 'I said rather nervously, 'What? Tell me,'' she recalls. 'And his answer was, 'I'm a bastard.'' It was an odd prelude to an astounding story, one that she says 'seemed to just tumble out of him after having been bottled up for a long time.' The consequences of Erskine's being able to prove that he is Yogananda's son -- if indeed he is -- are potentially huge. Even the specter of opening the long-sealed crypt poses potential problems. An alleged eyewitness account from a cemetery official (who died long ago) posits that the body was in 'immutable' condition, without having decomposed, as late as three weeks after Yogananda's death, when the crypt was permanently sealed. At least some of the faithful who believe that the body still has not decomposed might be shocked should reopening the crypt demonstrate otherwise. Beyond that, the financial stakes are also potentially enormous. If successful, Erskine might claim ownership rights to Yogananda's image and likeness, which the SRF has claimed as it own for decades. Although the copyrights have expired on some of Yogananda's better-known works, the SRF continues to spend huge sums of money protecting other copyrights. The organization possesses considerable wealth. Besides the 12.5-acre Mother Center, the SRF -- which claims a presence in 54 countries -- owns a spectacular retreat overlooking the Pacific Ocean in Encinitas, and its Lake Shrine in Pacific Palisades is worth many millions of dollars. But, as New Times reported, the SRF's handling of the controversy, including its efforts to suppress allegations -- some of them more than a half-century old -- of alleged womanizing by the swami has done little to diminish Erskine's credibility. And that includes the SRF's actions since Erskine began to speak publicly about his mother and Yogananda. For those interested in the story: http://newtimesla.com/search/results?search_keyword=yogananda&search_section=issues&x=12&y=13 Mirror LA New Times newtimesla.com/search/results?search_keyword=yogananda&search_section=issues&x=12&y=13

Subject: Yogananda was different...no From: PatC To: Mirror - And I always believed that Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 03:55:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He was also nuts and just as vain and flaky as Rawat - in his own way. Actually I think he was crazier but less greedy.

Subject: Waddya reckon? From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:29:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Going through an interesting shift in my life at the mo. As some of you know I had a very strong connection with the meditation and the living of k as a taoist/zen number, and never really connected with gm although I was always open for it. Bout ten years ago realized that I'd had my brain infiltrated by lila concepts more than anything and stopped meditating anywheres near as 'religiously' as I had for 15 years before. Went off on a chemikal one for the head trips, mushrooms bigtime for about four years, occasional e's and smoked bucketloads of hash. Now going through a semi-clean up, and have noticed that I'm starting to do the old top & tail number pretty regularly, ie first thing in the morn, and just before bed, and the toungue and breath technique are increasing again. The techniques have always had strong chemical effects on me, ex or otherwise, but I know that other subtle effects have been very muted in my journey away from the search for perfection and my coming to terms with my shadow side. My question is, since I'm starting to hit states from meditation and effects at a more consistent level again do ya reckon it's worth reporting here as such, as a comparison between the effects of practicing the techniques and a certain attitude as an ex compared to my premie days. Don't wanna bore everyone rigid, or wind anyone up if I can help it.

Subject: Thanks, Ham (OT) From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 23:11:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Had a big going away party for Lee the other night then Laurie and I drove him to the ferry yesterday. We're gonna miss him. He said he's emailed you several times now and is fully grateful for the hookup. I also told him that Nige and Moley said they drop into London every once in a while and that I'd send their emails to him or something once he's set up. You know, he's going to have our tunes on his computer when he gets there (although he's threatening to delete them as soon as he gets going -- we've already got good, working copies so don't really need the original tracks any longer). But if you want to talk him into playing them for you and if you had any ideas on how to fuck 'em up .... no, seriously. Could be fun. What do you think? Jim

Subject: No sweat Jim From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:29:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He sounds an ok guy, but I think he's in for a bit of a shock here. Everybody wants to be a designer over here and the competition is unbelievably ferocious, on the other side of the coin just one job does it. We might be able to sort him some stuff on the side too. But really, only getting to meet him so he can dish the dirt on ya, ha ha. Re the remixing job, definitely have a look. Quite a few of us at the Romford Underground are set up now, in fact just got woken up by the bloody postie bringing wav files from Tim G too. Interesting times. I'll e-mail yer about the trax when I see Lee. One thing are the trax as finished, could you break them down into separate wav or .aiff files whioch would make any remixing way more intreresting specially since I'm assuming we\re talking quite high noise factors, ie grunge territory/deathcore? We'd be really interested if you could break the trax down. Keep an eye on http://www.ru-raving.co.uk, ytax etc going up very shortly.

Subject: Re: No sweat Jim From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 17:28:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ham, I hear you re the industry there. Good luck, Lee! As for the tracks, they're currently both separate and mixed in final form. Lee's going to get rid of them once he needs the room but if you like some or all of them and want to grab them ... I'm just thinking they'd be much more interesting played around with, is all. Ya' know? Anyway, just keep me posted. Thanks again.

Subject: Yes, of course you should... From: Nigel To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:58:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A sample of one is not great science, but anecdotal evidence is important, and you're thinking like a scientist here. You could try switching the order of the techniques, tweaking finger positions, leaving out some techniques, at other time introducing new ones of your own invention... Personally, my own best meditation experiences happened when I chucked the bloody beragon down in frustration and just sat there, blanket around my shoulders, on the floor cushion, motionless, with my eyes open for twenty minutes, mostly just...thinking!! Hurrah for thinking. Hiya Hammy - how ya doing? - can you email me your phone number..important

Subject: Re: Yes, of course you should... From: hamzen To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:39:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nige, will e-mail ya in a sec, also tapes on the way to ya today, proper d&b including some fuckin gorgeous brazilian d&b, and an old chill-out tape of me mixing. And if you're ever down in London you two you must pop over, come down for an RU night, nexy one is June the 15th. Re the techniques, always did change the techniques going way back. From quite early used the fourth finger for my left eye when doing light, no difference, in fact a slight improvement, because surprize, surprize I was more comfortable. The only times I got much less from meditation was when I forced myself to meditate then it either always dried up, or was much less. After about two years I also treied it without the techniques for light and music, and was so used to the head areas I was focusing on that that there was no difference. I also quite often used to meditate laying down, and apart from when I was really tired it always improved it, can get back problems so it just made sense to me. One of the reasons why I always followed my inner guidance above everything else, especially when you consider the contradfictory statements of his holiship.

Subject: thanx all and first blog From: hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 07:44:52 (EDT) Email Address: hamzen2001@yahoo.co.uk Message: JHB, is that a back handed compliment or what, 'ie you might be many things but boring isn't one of them', ha ha. Is the Latvian spring kickin in now, get some pics up on the web eh, love to see some pics of where you are it sounds gorgeous. Re discussing meditation, exactly why I thought of posting it, and my little bit here, since I seem to have very little to say at the mo that hasn't already been said by someone else. Well Carl, JHB, PatC, y'all seemed to agree with my thinking so I'll probably do a monthly blog or summink similar. And Pat, fuck gmj, he'd never be able to nick our ideas, well mine are based on democracy so much now it would be highly amusing to see him try. Anth, if only I was going nuts, I did that one caning mushrooms for the first two years I totally gave gmj the finger, consumed with rage and cosmic despair. It was an interesting time and a big learner as you can imagine! I feel more balanced than I've ever felt in my life, well as close to balance as I'll ever reach! As for Radio 4, and sorry Sir D, the day I start lisatening to Radio 4 is the day I call it a day. Had a block about radio 4 since I was a kid, the very thought fills me with a dread and a feeling of void that is worse than despair. Anth gives us an e-mail matee, wanna see if there's some off the wall scripting we could do, between us, I'm sure we could russle up something really funny, off my head say something like the odd couple about two ageing hippies sharing a place, slipping back into mad experiences, takin the piss out of gurus and our younger days etc, still trying to stay young or alive. Oh and Pat C, finished recording a batch of cassettes, going out in the post this week, hope you enjoy mate. Hey Marianne, luv ya babes, hows tings eh? Things are wicked this end, getting very close to the best time of my life, and there might even be a little love in the air blossoming, can ya believe, scary shit I can tell ya, after takin a conscious five year break on all things relationships. Also started dj'ing again, last months set was a bit safe but on again nexct month and know I'm gonna be going for it more. I do the warm up set, setting the vibe and speed of etc, I'm one lucky bastard, check out www.ru-raving.co.uk Now onto the serious stuff. I finally reached a point where I realized that my ruthless exorcism of all things lila was hitting green light zone. Big boy could no longer be found anywhere in my head, what a relief, what a freedom. I can finally get back to getting high and stoned without drugs on a regular basis again. And nah, I ain't giving up ingested chemikals either, just occassionally now, like a couple of times a week, whether that's cyder, bitter, hash or e's, but I want to cut out tobacco and I know that 'meditation' for want of a better word will help big time on that one. But now that my lila and premie behaviour exorcism is over and I can get back to free drugs too, well quite right. After all why should I switch off from something that gave me SO much pleasure over the years just because of an arsehole guru embedding his dodgy lila concepts and hindu mythology in my head. Meditation for me always was a total pleasure, but then I realized in my early days with k that it should always be a joy, a pleasure, or a meaningful learning experience, and not a pressure, or a grind or a duty. If it wasn't coming from the 'heart' then it would become a trip, then what would be the point and inevitably it would be painful and I would be fraudulent. So that's the background to my switch. One thing I've realized already, and that was amplified by the discussion at LG about meditation is that we have no language for it that isn't suffused with eastern 'spiritual' concepts and 'religious' flavours. I would really like to develop a materialist language for a meditation practice that is heart based as well as stoner based. Heart based because for me those flavours savoured in meditation always brought up strong experiences of love and respect for life, not respect for gmj or god, but life as is. We're talking old school taoist go with the flow hippy shit here, universal one love stuff not based upon any god or being, but routed in life itself, ie not just taoist ham zen but mildly shamanic pagan too. To give another example, a good mate of mine is on a serious chemikal clean up at the mo, after really caning the alcohol, pills and hash for years, she's 25. Has started doing tai chi recently and last week had her first zappy experience. To use her words 'it was odd, didn't think you could get those kind of experiences without drugs, an out of body experience.' Upon asking her to elucidate she didn't mean literally out of body, but that sh'ed let go of her body and felt a peace and relaxation she'd never felt before, she loved it, but was shocked and has given her real hope she can go further into non-external drug getting stoned. For myself it's early days. Most days now I'm doing about 10 minutes or so morning and night, say 4/5 days a week. There isn't anything stunning happening experience wise, but as when I got the k techniques originally I can feel something happening, like when you play tetris and the bits start to fit into place, not in terms of concepts but very physically. Some changes in head clarity. The breath technique, which never fully went, it was almost an automated 24/7 number for me for 15 years, I'm becoming more conscious of. But the most noticeable change so far has been in the toungue technique. That was also fairly automated for me after years of habit, but recently when slipping into it theres a flavour coming up which is very nice and mildly intoxicating, and the vibe is mildly e and new school acid. Now why should that be. We know that both e's and acid have a strong relationship with serotonin, which gives that glowy good vibe feel, and that the pineal gland is intricastely linked with serotonin too via melotonin production, and the one thing I've noticed is that when that good vibe shit starts round the toungue technique I can feel mild pressure between the eyeballs as though they are linked, ie I can feel a gentle chemikal change happening. Well that's me first meditation blog, will try to get back here on a monthly basis.

Subject: Re: thanx all and first blog From: Robyn To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 22:17:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Meditation for me always was a total pleasure, but then I realized in my early days with k that it should always be a joy, a pleasure, or a meaningful learning experience, and not a pressure, or a grind or a duty. If it wasn't coming from the 'heart' then it would become a trip, then what would be the point and inevitably it would be painful and I would be fraudulent.' And so, the birth of another institution, if you did let it become a duty, I mean.

Subject: Meditation as medication From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:13:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''And Pat, fuck gmj, he'd never be able to nick our ideas, well mine are based on democracy so much now it would be highly amusing to see him try.'' Yes, of course he would have to get rid of himself to talk our talk BUT he may pinch some cool phrases that we use. For instance he had never used the term bhakti until I started discussing it on F5 last year. You again: ''After all why should I switch off from something that gave me SO much pleasure over the years just because of an arsehole guru embedding his dodgy lila concepts and hindu mythology in my head.'' Precisely my thoughts. You: ''One thing I've realized already, and that was amplified by the discussion at LG about meditation is that we have no language for it that isn't suffused with eastern 'spiritual' concepts and 'religious' flavours.'' A couple of us discussed this problem by email. Most did not seem to think that using eastern terms was a problem but I saw it as a severe problem. Not only do we not know exactly what all those words like samadhi really mean but they are all so primitive and pre-scientific and just begging to be bastardised by New Age thinking. Even the atheistical zen terms are not immune to New Age-ifying. My approach has lately been meditation as medication for mental health. I don't think there is anything special about the K techs. What is special is one's dedication, focus, mental alertness. I'm sure that can be achieved in many ways. All that crap on LG about it is hallucinations. Meditation cannot be practiced without first separating reality from imagination. The imagination is stimulated by the euphoria and can be dangerous. The mind must be healthy and rational before doing it. Maharajism fills the imagination with such unholy crap that it is no wonder that premies are so nuts. I am looking forward to hearing your tape and your next instalment of your thoughts on meditation.

Subject: Re: Meditation as sporting practice From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:48:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like that you also see the problems with the language, one thought with weight carries an angled slant whether we realize it or not. For a long time I saw it in sporting terms, I love sport and watched hundreds of hours in the 80's and numerous interviews, because the nearest metaphor I ever found for my meditation experiences was the sporting phrase of 'being in the zone'. Any sportperson or creative person knows that one bigtime and the trigger mechanisms for it always intrigued me, as did the mechanisms for keeping it coming.

Subject: Meditation as trainspotting From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 04:20:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first met you, you were in a bit of a trainspotterish funk. I was just thinking about you today and saying to myself that you now sound very buoyant and cheerful. Well, I must be going through my trainspotting phase of exing because nowadays I value stoicism above all virtues. I practiced three of the four techs for two years before meeting Rev Rawat. My meditation was dry and difficult. Then the Rawat Family Circus introduced an element of excitement and unpredictability. The next ten years in the late seventies were a mixture of crazy highs and terrible lows. Meantime I kept on plodding with the techs and never got as much out of them as I did from satsang or service. Then slowly, almost imperceptibly I began to get more out of meditation than satsang or service or darshan at festivals. I still plod because I enjoy the pay-off but I can live without the mood swings. Maybe it's just old age but stoicism (cheerful not melancholy) seems to work best right now. One quote from the Dammapadda that I always did enjoy was: ''Patience is the only virtue and perseverance the highest nirvana.'' I do think people get as much out of trainspotting, mathematics, music and sport as meditation. It's all a matter of watching and paying attention. b)

Subject: Cool Hamzen From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 21:34:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're the brave hero guy in the sci-fi that agrees to go into the time warp or whatever to save the planet. In this case the benefit, beyond your own amusement, will be to prove that the Goo Goo Gaa Gaa Ju Ju is just that and not required for altered states of conciousness. Candy without the Candyman. I see no harm in showing this type of mind focus to be beneficial. What remains harmful is attributing those e and light acid vibes to the Balyogeshwar er SatGru er Guru Maharaj Ji er Maharji er the Client er the Captain er the Speaker er the Foundation Leader. Oh wow, man - he just keeps changing right before my eyes. Cheers and happy landing. Richard

Subject: Thanx matee (nt) From: hamzen To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 03:49:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hamzen, you're going nuts. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:26:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hiya Ham', I think you're going nuts. You've been listening to too much of that Acid Head Music in garages, and it's blasted through your eardrums and caused severe deterioration in the brain. That, plus the withdrawal symptons you're going through since you've stopped smoking Es are pushing you towards the edge. You must put all thoughts of meditation out of your mind. Once you begin to indulge in this diabolical practice, you will be lost forever in an Acid House Rage, listening to Wrapped music, giving all your wages to a guru. I suggest you get a World Cup Football Wall Chart, fill in all the results in each group, and follow your team's progress through the competition. If they get knocked out in the first round, take up a sport, like curling, long-distance running, or mud wrestling. If that doesn't work, try listening to BBC Radio 4 and practice being middle class. Dr Anth, Answers for Everything.

Subject: Re: Hamzen, you're going nuts. From: Marianne To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 22:08:08 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Anth, it's impossible to imagine ham giving over the reins of his life to anyone, ever, again. Ah let him meditate if he wants to. I'm sure the reports from the wild, wooly frontiers of ham's expeditions will be very entertaining. How're you doing there, hamzen? Love, Marianne PS Off topic: have you guys seen the series that MTV is doing with the Osbournes? I wonder what you Brits think about it.

Subject: The Osbournes want 20 million to renew From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 03:48:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a hilarious show it is - totally addictive. It's like being a voyeur. BTW I read the article you mentioned. I'd like to post the link to it here - with your permission. Nice one.

Subject: Re: The Osbournes From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 06:27:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They were on the Jonathon Ross show this week, absolutely fuckin hilarious. Can't wait to see the series. Ross described the show as a cross between Spinal Tap & The Partridge Family! According to Osbourtne they're signed up already to do a second series. What I loved about them on Rpss's show was how genuine they came over, we'll see.

Subject: Re: The Osbournes From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 13:28:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They are the most unpretentious and outspoken family I have ever had the pleasure to see. I stumbled across the show by accident when watching ''Real World'' on MTV (yes, I'm a Real World addict - just love those kids.) Ozzie is so loopy and his wife is a breath of fresh air. Their oldest daughter moved out of the house and got her own flat because she did not want to be in the show. The season finale is at the end of May.

Subject: Don't knock it, Anth From: Sir Dave To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 18:57:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's some damn good plays and comedy pragrammes on Radio 4 and there's nothing made that can beat ''The Archers'' for thrills and suspense. .. Dave

Subject: I've never forgiven them Dave From: AJW To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:02:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, I've never forgiven Radio 4, since they had me on hold that day on 'You and Yours', to talk about cults abusing charitable status, and then never let me on. Anth the sour grape.

Subject: Well, I'm all ears +) From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:03:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't wanted to talk about it in case it gives Rev Rawat some good ideas for his revisionism but I don't give a damn anymore. Even if he steals our good ideas, he still has no credibilty in the eyes of decent folk.

Subject: Quick answer: feel free to tell all From: Carl To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:46:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would be interested to hear of your experiences, samadhi or otherwise, not bored at all. Put it out there. It's what keeps the ball in play in the serious/fun game of finding one's balance again, a game or dance which seems to have no end. Best, Carl

Subject: One thing you're not is boring! From: JHB To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:30:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ham, The more people talk about the effects of meditating, the more those effects will be demystified for those who still believe Prem Rawat has anything to do with it. At least you'd be open to discussing what it is you're experiencing unlike all the premies here. So go for it! John.

Subject: Belief and Experience From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 11:21:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, When I was in the cult. I passed out several times in darshan lines (when devotees line up in their best outfit to put money in an envelope and kiss Rawat’s fee). I “merged with light” when I meditated. I stopped my thoughts with the Holy Name technique (concentrating on breathing). I experienced “the Grace of Guru Maharaji” at moments in my life when I ran out of money, was hungry, prayed etc. There were all “experiences” of “Maharaji” (the Lord), which were fruits of my devotion, surrender etc. They also served to reinforce my faith and belief in Rawat and the process of “practising Knowledge”. I went to big cult gatherings, and “blissed out” dancing with a few thousand other lovers and their Lord. Then the bubble burst and I tumbled out of the cult and onto the street. Like the rest of us, I blinked, and was amazed to find the world was still beautiful. Love existed and the sunsets were better than ever. There was nobody judging me, constantly commenting on my life and giving me tips on how to improve it. There was no drain on my bank account. No drain on my time and energy. I put my head on the pillow and went to sleep at night. I didn’t have to bow down to a picture of Mr Rawat and poke myself in the eyes, to enable myself to “see reality”. (Those models of the three wise monkeys, who look like they’re doing three of Rawat’s meditation techniques, take on new significance when you leave the cult.) But what about all that beautiful, cosmic inner experience I had because of following someone who called himself the “Perfect Master”? I experienced it, after all. I felt the bliss. I saw the Divine Light within. I heard the cosmic harmony of God, playing sweetly in my ears. I felt the perfect peace of a still mind. And best of all, I had “darshan”- the cherry on the premie’s cake. (Darshan is hanging out with the “living Perfect Master”). I’d got to know the Lord personally. It had made me high and turned me into a hot property in the cult. I knew his family. I’d seen him up close and felt his love and his grace and the power of his presence. I’d confirmed to everyone how perfect and beautiful it was to become part of the Creators earthly purpose. Was it all bullshit? How could those feelings have been false? Belief and experience are different, but they compliment each other. For example, if you live in a Christian country, when you were a child you probably believed in Santa Claus. And when you woke up on Christmas morning, and saw that this beautiful, generous, magical being, had eaten the mince pie, drunk the glass of whiskey you left out, and left everybody a pile of presents of the things they wanted most in the world, it simply confirmed your belief. That’s the magic of Christmas. If you strip away the belief, it’s not the same. We’re far enough away from our childhood not to be confused because a feeling of great joy we had as a child was based on a con trick perpetrated by society in general and our parents in particular. You can’t tell a miserable teenager on Christmas Eve, “Just put a pillowcase at the end of your bed. Santa Claus will come down the chimney when you're asleep and fill it full of presents.” It’s about four years since I left the cult, and the reconciliation of the contradictions between belief and experience is still going on. When I remove my “beliefs”, the picture changes and I re-evaluate my experience. For example, when I occasionally practice one of Rawat’s mediation techniques, (purely for research purposes), I see the same shining light, that I saw when I was a believer. Probably the same type of stuff that all the premies look at now and again. If I stick my thumbs in my ears I hear the same sounds I always did. But it’s only the “Inner light of God” if you believe that’s what it is. If you stop believing, everything changes. Passing out in the darshan line switches from “Samhadi” to “Swooning”. (How humiliating.) The divine light of God becomes patterns on the back of your eyeball, (like those funny little shapes you see floating past when you look at the sky.). The “inner harmony” becomes blood rushing over your eardrums. “Guru Maharaji’s Grace,” becomes, “Good luck”, “Co-incidence”, etc. (These experiences don’t stop.) Blissing out at a programme with the Lord looks suspiciously like mass hysteria. Have you ever seen film of Nazi meetings in the 1930s, Christian evangelical meetings, or early Beatles concerts? And the “Perfect Master” finally ends up where he belongs- at the back of the cupboard with Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Jack Frost, ET and Superman. Anth the crumbling belief system.

Subject: Re: Belief and Experience From: Gail To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:01:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You forgot Spiderman! Great post.

Subject: Re: Belief and Experience From: Dep To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:54:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, You are on the right track. Stop believing and trust your experience. You say, If you stop believing, everything changes. Passing out in the darshan line switches from 'Samhadi' to 'Swooning.' But isn't this just another belief? Have you stopped believing or have you merely exchanged one belief for another belief? Are spiritual concepts still concepts? Is stuff always stuff? Could this just be spiritual materialism? Are you, 'Anth the crumbling belief system.' Or are you, 'Anth the exchanging one set of concepts for another set of concepts?' If you truly crumble your belief system and become a space without meaning or content, then IMO you will truly have an experience of meditation. =) Dep the, eh . . . . I can't think of a damn thing to say.

Subject: Samhadi and Swooning. From: AJW To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 18:56:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, It's not a belief. It's a description of something that happened. What happened happened. At the time I called it Samhadi, with wisdom and hindsight, I'd call it 'swooning'. Lots of people have the experience in all sorts of different circumstances. The most common is people passing out when they receive the darshan of their favorite rock star. I bet some Moonies pass out when they meet the Rev. Shit, maybe they have their own equivalent of the darshan. Anth by the light of the silvery swoon.

Subject: Re: Samhadi and Swooning. From: Dep To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 19:41:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, It's not a belief. It's a description of something that happened. What happened happened. At the time I called it Samhadi, with wisdom and hindsight, I'd call it 'swooning'. Lots of people have the experience in all sorts of different circumstances. The most common is people passing out when they receive the darshan of their favorite rock star. I bet some Moonies pass out when they meet the Rev. Shit, maybe they have their own equivalent of the darshan. Anth by the light of the silvery swoon. --- Hi Anth, No it is a belief. Your concepts made you swoon! Your belief system made you swoon; otherwise, you would have just seen a pudgy East Indian guy sitting in a chair. People who don't have K or know about Mr. Rawat, cashiers in stores for example, just see a guy with an expensive watch. Absolutely no swooning. Ever heard of the placebo affect? Mr. Rawat was just an extra-strength placebo. And the placebo affect can easily be described. =) Dep - the so damn Buddhist he is starting to make himself sick.

Subject: Yes Dep. From: AJW To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:46:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Dep. What you say makes sense. I think we agree. Anth, Buddhist can you spare a dime?

Subject: 'Passed out several times in darshan'..? From: Nige To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 19:29:06 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Gawd, what kind of a big girl's blouse are you? But have to admit that was a bloody good post. Well said, indeed, Anthony. Don't know about you, but it seems to me this forum has never been in better shape in the whole of the last four years. On-topic - with appropriate semi-OT moments - minimal friction between exes, and even minimal interventions from hostile anon premies (who you instantly know who they are anyway and illustrate all the worst characteristics of pewkiness). I still have fond memories of our joint FA-ing days. Hope you're bearing up and doing well in current circumstances. Your shack on the clifftops sounds not unlike our place in the Tyne valley... Know anywhere we can buy a cheap electricity generator?

Subject: Samhadi and wind generators From: AJW To: Nige Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 19:05:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nigel, Passing out in darshan became a minor status symbol in premieworld. I used to see it as a sign of being close to the cosmic creator, one little push and plop, there I was, merging with infinity. I had a few experiences like that before I joined the cult too. I think I'm prone to out of body experiences. They've now evolved to their pinnacle, which is a good night's sleep. Sooo.. on the subject of generators. I've been looking at this in a muusing sort of fashion. It looks like there's three choices (unless you want to go the nuclear fusion route). Petrol, wind or water. An eco-geezer in Nottingham said you get plans for a wind generator built around the rear axle of a Ford Transit. Talking to him about it after a few pints of Guiness is as far as I've got. If there's a river in the Tyne valley, a water generator may be an option. I'm still recovering from FAing F5 (now there's some cult jargon for you). Anth, the sweet FA.

Subject: Fuelled by Guinness.. From: Nigel To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:23:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..eh? Yeah, right.. like Denny O'Rafferty's motor car An eco-geezer in Nottingham said you get plans for a wind generator built around the rear axle of a Ford Transit. Talking to him about it after a few pints of Guiness is as far as I've got. I can see this working if, say, you are talking about an electric motor-powered Ford transit, for is not a dynamo an electric motor in reverse? Otherwise why a Ford transit axle? Surely any metal stick with a cogwheel on it would do the same job... Ah, the sweet little mysteries of science and technology

Subject: Yes Nigel. From: AJW To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:49:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess as long as you've got the plan the right way up, and the right sized spanner, you'll be OK. Next time I bump into the guy, I'll get more information. The other stuff I heard about seemed very expensive, but someone told me you can go a to a sort of 'boat scrapyard', where you can pick up second hand wind generators very cheap. Again, I never had time to follow it up. I think there's an alternative energy centre in Wales somewhere. Anth the vague.

Subject: From the Darshan line to rear axels.. From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:43:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An eco-geezer in Nottingham said you get plans for a wind generator built around the rear axle of a Ford Transit. Talking to him about it after a few pints of Guiness is as far as I've got. I too have passed out in the Darshan line - after Holy Breath. Now I am reduced to calling myself Moldy Warp, considering a career in fruit-picking, living in a shack at weekends and a basement during the week, and discussing the relative merits of back axles with both a Cornwalian fellow shack-dweller and a rather nice guy with a, shall we say, highly distinctive taste in underwear.

Subject: I do not wish to know that. From: AJW To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:52:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: An eco-geezer in Nottingham said you get plans for a wind generator built around the rear axle of a Ford Transit. Talking to him about it after a few pints of Guiness is as far as I've got. I too have passed out in the Darshan line - after Holy Breath. Now I am reduced to calling myself Moldy Warp, considering a career in fruit-picking, living in a shack at weekends and a basement during the week, and discussing the relative merits of back axles with both a Cornwalian fellow shack-dweller and a rather nice guy with a, shall we say, highly distinctive taste in underwear. --- Moley, I do not wish to know that. But you can send me the pictures. Anth, likes football, kills things, etc.

Subject: Anth .... Latvian night and mildy deranged stuff From: Moley To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:25:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know what you mean, but I have little choice in the matter :) Well. yes actually I can send you the pictures. You can have an exclusive free view B4 we flog 'em to Sir Dave. BTW - RU up for a London mini-Latvian on June 14th?? We are about to alert Jethro and Hamzen - Joe will be in London and Joy will come...

Subject: Generating Electricity From: JHB To: Nige Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:47:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige, I can't help with buying a generator, but last december I bought a 3KW generator for about 450 quid. I suspect a smaller one would be enough for your purposes. We needed one because a tree fell on our power line s and brought down a double concrete post (it was a big tree!). After 4 days the novelty of candlelight and drawing water from the well by hand wore off, and off to Riga I went to buy the generator. We only used it one day before Latvenergo fixed the line. We haven't used it since but I know we will! Your point about this forum is spot on as well, especially in view of Dave's post from LG Jim has posted above. All the best, John.

Subject: Well said, Anth! From: Chuck S. To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:24:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's so true, none of that stuff changes, just the belief in the perception of what it is. That is the whole guru schtick; guru takes credit for what's already there, tells you it's divine magic, and that you can only experience it through devotion to him. I think it took me two years of reading EPO, and reading up on cults in general and how gurus operate in particular, to just reach a point where I couldn't deny that I HAD been involved with a cult (something I really didn't want to believe). Once you actually see that it was all about belief, and nothing more, you can feel quite foolish. You have to admit to yourself that you were had. That's humiliating, but it's more humiliating still to continue to be taken in. No wonder he kept telling us to "Leave no room for doubt in your mind", "Never doubt the purity of the Master", and "Belief is Relief". Like the belief in Santa Claus, it just all falls to pieces without the Belief System. It's all about perception and atribution, instead of the "Truth". Your post means a lot to me, because you got to experience Rawat up close and personal, which I and many premies never did. And still, you've seen that the only thing that changes post-guru is the belief! I felt like such a fool when I could no longer deny it. It's humiliating, but ultimately helpful! Thanks for such a clear and well-written post.

Subject: Re: Belief and Experience From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:06:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a real treat to read you, Anth. You said: ''For example, when I occasionally practice one of Rawat’s meditation techniques, (purely for research purposes), I see the same shining light, that I saw when I was a believer.'' Yes, I still occassionally do the meditation ''purely for research purposes'' and can say that I have the exact same experience as before with one big exception. I no longer have Rev Rawat's nonsense running through my mind when I do it. Recently I talked to a premie about this. He was obvioulsy happy to hear me say I still enjoy meditation as it confirmed for him that he was doing the right thing. However the moment that I began to criticise Rev Rawat, he had a fit. He said: ''I don't want to hear that stuff. It's hard enough to focus on the experience already. I don't need to know that stuff.'' I replied that it had actually become easier for me to ''focus'' and it was fun as I no longer had the distraction of Rev Rawat's Belief System which has strong superstitious and religious fear messages: ''You're a fly caught in a spider's web. Only the master can save you.'' ''Time is your enemy and you better shape up because you are soon going to die.'' ''Never doubt the purity of the master because he is the only one who can give you this experience.'' ''Belief is relief.'' Well, you know all the usual fundamentalist religious crap. Just because his crap is Hindu doesn't make it any less fundamentalist. I was really dumb 30 years ago. I hated fundamentalist christianty and thought his brand of Hinduism was cool. Now I know better. It's the same old-time religion full of superstitious nonsense. The darshan, the foot-drooling thingy, the mass-meetings are all just charismatic revivalist crap. Rev Rawat belongs on TV with the rest of the televangelists. He has finally found his true niche.

Subject: * * * Best Of ! * * * From: Richard To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 11:57:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, you've definitely been putting the ol' brain to good use. This should be on the list of top 10 must-reads for anyone considering a walk away from Club Rawat. Funny but a pwk in another thread was just asking didn't any of us winey loosers (sic) ever experience anything. Well, you've testified in the affirmative big time. Thanks for that. Your excellent summary brings to mind a book I read recently. Sceptics and True Believers by Chet Raymo, seeks to find bridges between the seemingly unbridgable worlds of science and religion. One example the author uses is a small tern that migrates from Chile to Nova Scotia annually. The birds stop along the return trip to dine on horseshoe crab larvae at a precise location each year. What is remarkable is that when the adults leave Nova Scotia to return south, the hatchlings stay awhile longer. When the young ones head south later, they too stop at the exact same place to eat the horseshoe crabs even though the adults have moved on. This is a truely amazing occurance that could be credited to God's Will or such but, in fact is a result of the Tern's DNA. The point is that when one becomes aware of the incredible complexity coded into every creature on the planet or the majesty of the planets and stars, you can't help but become awed by it all. Without the knowledge of science, it must be attributed to a higher power and the awe by default becomes religion. What is too difficult for us to comprehend must be the work of God. But now I'm really freaking out. You mean to tell me that Santa Claus isn't real? Richard, each good tern deserves another

Subject: One good tern deserves another From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:16:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a Fairy Tern, closely related to the Tooth Fairy community.silverlink.net/midway/Photos/Birds/fairy%20tern%2002.jpg

Subject: Re: Belief and Experience From: Mili To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 11:49:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So are you having more fun now, or was it more fun then?

Subject: Mili... From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:10:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mili... I'm having much more fun in every aspect of life. It's like I was dragging this dead weight around and now it's gone. Anth where's me albatross?

Subject: Albatross From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 22:04:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh my dear brother Anth Ji, you are searching for albatross? Is large bird yes, no? Similarly to the Divine Hansa Swan who has special powers of discriminating one thing from other thing. Let's see, Mahatma ji is forgetting much laks things these days but ... oh yes, now I remember Hansa Swan can drink from special prashad bhang drink and leave the yogurt while consuming hashish. :) I can't read the Englandish too very much good and my special assistant has to get another job so she can't read for me anymore. But what I am just figuring out is you are telling many wondeful darshan stories, is correct? And also you are been giving satsang to this silly Mili person I think. That's the Anth Ji I remember from Prem Nagar. Praise be to Balyogeshwar you did not once mention miscreant Captain so maybe you are no longer obsessed with that demon and have come back to Sant Ji for good. This makes Mahatma Ji soooo totally blissing out. Jai ho, bro! Mahatma Coat

Subject: Boy am I slow! I just now got your name! From: Jim To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 19:01:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My hat, my coat .... funny :)

Subject: Re: Boy am I slow! From: Mahatma Coat To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:50:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, bruzza Jim Ji. Not be worrying so much. I will be telling you how Mahatma Ji got his name. Many years in past when I was just mere bwoy, Hans Ji Maharaj was teaching us to be mahatmas to do prachar. I was always forgetting things and one day, while Shri Maharaj Ji was taking procession along Sacred Ganges, I suddenly got chilly and started running back to satsang hall for hat and coat. I ran so quickly that almost knocked Guru Ji down and he called after me, What have you forgotten now? I turned and did full pranam in dirt and because we were to always try speaking in the Englandish for future prachar in west, I said My hat, my coat Guru Ji. Loving and wise as he was, Shri Maharaji got big smile and immediately said That shall now be your new name - Mahatma Coat! Guru Ji was speaking with proper Englandish accent and making very funny joke. He knew that I would be coming to west where I better not forget my hat or my coat or I would freeze to death. Such a loving Master. If that day I had also forgotten my gloves or just my keys, today I would be called Mahatma Coatmagloves or Mahatma Keys. Hansa Bansa Ki Jai!!!! Mahatma Coat who remembers everything and revises nothing

Subject: JSCA Mahatma-Ji. From: AJW To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:06:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mahatma Ji, Albert Ross is an aspirant I am bringing to the Holy Lostus Feet. He loves the words of satsang so much he sometimes grabs hold of me and won't let go until I surrender and sing the glory or the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the planet. Anth the not worthy.

Subject: Bhole Shri Anth Ji ! From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 21:51:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aaaaah, that's my bwa. Just remember, by His grace Guru Ji is being give you this very Albert Ross aspirant to bind you forever to Lord. Even if you have to carry this Albert Ross around your neck, surely he is anchor to help you sink to bottom of ocean of mercy just beneath the Lostus Feet. Such bliss. Mahatma Coat, the original weird and quaint Hindu concept

Subject: Bless your saffron socks. Mahatma Ji. LOL. [nt] From: :PatC To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 03:51:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Never delay in attending socks on PatC ! [nt] From: Mahatma Coat To: :PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 22:03:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Mili... From: Mili To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 18:55:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anth, get this, GOOD FOR YOU! I mean it. And it's nice to hear that you are still enjoying the meditation sometimes, too.

Subject: Well that's kind of what Raja Ji asked me From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:11:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when I stood up at the back of the hall to ask him what the hell this whole trip was anyway at that fundraiser in LA. For starters, I'd like some answers. I mean, I dedicated eight years of my life to your brother in his ashram .... Yes, but were you happy there? Well, I don't think that's the issue at all. Happy? I could have been happy by nature, or unhappy by nature. I spent almost all my twenties that way. There's nothing to compare that time with. No, sorry but that's not the issue. The issue is: was any of that TRUE? Was the reason I moved there true? We were told you guys were DIVINE. That's the only reason I tried to surrender my life to him. The question is: was that true. Okay, have you seen the movie The Last Emperor? Yeah. Why? Because it was like that. We were raised like him to believe that we'd never have to work in this world ... But what's that got to do with whether or not Maharaji was telling us the truth when he claimed to be divine? Then I can't remember what he said but we went back and forth like this for a bit and ended up having a drink the next afternoon when Rajaj Ji came down to meet me after work in the Red Robin in my building on Wilshire. (I know, i've told this story several times before). That's when he finally admitted he himself couldn't get a straight answer out of Maharaji and it frustrated him too. I mention all this because your question was just like his. Funny, huh Mili? Completely oblivious to the question of truth.

Subject: Re: Well that's kind of what Raja Ji asked me From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:42:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, honestly, was it really all that bad?

Subject: Mili - careful... From: Nigel To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 19:58:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're turning into Djuro. And believe me it looks serious. You see a long sentence - worse, a paragraph, a well-considered question - and you get the heebie-jeebies. Mind goes into shorthand safety procedure, at which point asking another new-agey, feel-gooey question (the answer to which to which you have no interst in) is the safest option for not losing face. [Sorry for the interruption - carry on, gents..]

Subject: Re: Well that's kind of what Raja Ji asked me From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:44:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Are you kidding here or what? Mili, use your brain. If that question didn't work for Raja Ji, for the reasons I gave, why should it work for you? Was it really that bad? I don't know. Compared to what? Compared to a stick in the eye with a sharp stick, no. Compared to me living my own life, developing my own talents, relationships, all of that, yes. Put it this way, would I or any of us have signed up if he we knew what we know now about Maharaji (ie, that he's NOT the Lord of the Universe, that he's NOT about to save the world, that the ashram was NOT a life-long committment and the only real way to prove one's dedication and / or realize Knowledge if one didn't have children to look after)? Of course not. Never in a million years. Mili, when you were in your early twenties, did you want to give up sex and move into a house on the understanding that: 1) you could never leave. Leaving was tantamount to selling your soul to the devil. 2) you owned nothing and never would again. 3) your life was not your own. In practical terms that meant it wasn't at all for you to decide anything: what town you lived in, where you worked, who you'd share a room with, what service you did. Your body, mind and soul was Maharaji's and you, my friend, were just in the way. Not a single one of any of the ashram premies I ever met would have even dreamt of signing on for that trip if we didn't think Maharaji was God, plain and simple. And that, Mili, is the truth.

Subject: Re: Well that's kind of what Raja Ji asked me From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:52:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why did you think he was God? Was it just blind faith, or did you have some particular reason to believe it? Was it just because it was the thing to do at the time, or because all your friends said so? Were you expecting a Messiah, or something like that?

Subject: Well, Mili From: Gail To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 00:20:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why were you the only one who was given the GRACE to realize that Prem was joking when he said he was the Lord of the Universe? Have you read over the words to Arti lately? He, personally, translated those words for us to repeat day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade (he was still playing this song in 1997). You are a liar of the highest order--you are lying to yourself! You believed he was the creator in human form just like the rest of us. How can you pretend you never believed this? Did you sing along at festivals 'Dance with us Lord, . . . Why else would you still be hanging around? You believe Prem has magical powers to this day. If this is not the case, what are you hanging around for? I remember you from four years ago. Haven't you gotten the message yet? We believed MJ. We loved MJ. We worshipped MJ. We followed MJ. We came, we saw, we lost, but not you, eh Mili [to quote Brian]?

Subject: Re: Well that's kind of what Raja Ji asked me From: Moley To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 20:21:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why did you think he was God? Was it just blind faith, or did you have some particular reason to believe it? Was it just because it was the thing to do at the time, or because all your friends said so? Were you expecting a Messiah, or something like that? --- Why did you think he was God? Because he said so. Was it just blind faith, or did you have some particular reason to believe it? Every reason, Mili, in the climate if the time. Was it just because it was the thing to do at the time, or because all your friends said so? Well, that's just bollocks, Mii... multi-level bollocks, and you know it. Were you expecting a Messiah, or something like that? Yeh, weren't we all. Isn't that the point Mili? Big question Mili - has Rawat fufilled all your expectations of a 'Messiah' ? Oh do tell... Am I missing something? Enlighten me.

Subject: Mili.. From: Nige To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 20:06:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why did you think he was God? Was it just blind faith, or did you have some particular reason to believe it? Was it just because it was the thing to do at the time, or because all your friends said so? Were you expecting a Messiah, or something like that? --- Why did you think he was God? (1) Because he fucking said he was. Was it just blind faith, or did you have some particular reason to believe it? (2) Because he fucking said he was. Was it just because it was the thing to do at the time, or because all your friends said so? Were you expecting a Messiah, or something like that? (3) Because he fucking said he was.

Subject: Nigel From: Legin To: Nige Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 02:41:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are truly pathetic

Subject: Legin - welcome to Forum VII From: Nigel To: Legin Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:43:50 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Your input is valued, believe me. People matter - and I assume you are a member of that species of of hominid known as homo sapiens, right? (translates as 'wise monkey' or something. It sets us apart from the LG rabble) Ok, now let's both sit down and try and work out what is troubling you, exactly, Legin. You sound angry - that's ok. ('Anger, desires, attachments' apparently no longer rob one of one's heavenly life - which is nice). Ok, so be nice to yourself. Own your anger - talk things through a little, you know it makes sense... :)

Subject: You're talking to Ms Elephant Cerise, Nige [nt] From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 18:46:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I know, Pat. Hence facetious response From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 09:25:08 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message:

Subject: I knew that you knew :) From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 10:25:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was for anyone else who had not figured it out. :P

Subject: Jesus Christ, you did it again! From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:58:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just finished calling you on this trick in your post to Cynthia and lo and behold you're doing it to me too! Screw off, Mili, if you don't want to have an honest discussion. Again, like with Cynth, the ball's in YOUR court, not mine. I alread played your game and answered your question. Then I posed one of my own. I'll be damned if I'll let you ignore all that and keep hiding behind more questions like this. Robyn's such an idiot to say as she did on LG yesterday that no one lets you get a word in edgewise here. The ball's in your court, Mili, not mine!

Subject: Mili - the point is - WAS IT TRUE?! From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:02:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, If someone you trust lies to you about something important, and you later find out, you don't say to yourself well while I believed them, I was having a good time, so that's alright. No, you get angry and sad that someone you trusted behaved that way. You try to find out why, ask them for an explanation, and if they won't talk to you, you reluctantly let go of the trust you had. If you then see that they are lying to other people too, you might decide to warn them. Mili, the truth matters. Life isn't just about having fun. John.

Subject: More fun... From: Chuck S. To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:58:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Speaking for myself, I'm having more fun NOW! Without the extra baggage, and trying to fit myself into the syncronized participation box, life is just easier to enjoy. Mili, hasn't it been you that has often said to exes, something like, "Can you honestly say you got NOTHING out of it? Why did you stick with it for so long then?" I know that yes, many premies have stuck with it for so long because they HAVE gotten something out of it. I know I did. I don't doubt others do. I don't question your feelings. The part I question is the belief in attributing these experiences to Maharaji, and the belief that the Master is necessary. There is a period of mourning and humiliation when that belief bubble is burst, and some superstitious religious fears to face and get over, but once that passes, life is still good, and for me, I'd say it's better than ever. When you can still have the good experiences you had as a premie, without having to throw reason and logic out the window, how could it be worse? When you can honor those loving feelings that made you want to become a premie in the first place, without having to keep secrets or ignore some things just to hold your belief system together, how could life not be better? I know premies just want to be happy. That's one of the things that attracted me to the whole thing in the firstplace. It's just ironic to me that the simple experience Rawat talks about is even simpler than he says; you don't need HIM to experience it. It's not a gift, it's already yours. It always was.

Subject: Re: More fun... From: Mili To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:40:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, if it's a gift that means it's yours to keep. I don't have a problem with it. Also, M has said many times that what you do with it is up to you. And if you happen to be grateful for it, it's worth nothing unless it's freely given. How come all you guys are so hung up on it?

Subject: Hung up? How so? From: Chuck S. To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:11:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If it was YOURS in the first place, how can it be a "gift"? And are there no strings attached to this "gift"? What about the three promises, "Give knowledge a fair chance", "Don't reveal the techniqes to anyone (even though they ARE freely available from many other sources", and "Keep in touch". Are they not strings tying the Master and you together? If you can have the good feelings and experiencs without him, why do you NEED to keep in touch? Sure he says that what you do with it is up to you. He also warns us about the world being like a spider web, a fishnet, where maya waits to eat you for breakfast, lunch and dinner, that no one has ever "saved" himself, that people with out Knowledge are like dead people, that the premies should SHUT UP and LISTEN to the Master (forget about questions), that he doesn't know our names, and doesn't WANT to know... I could go on and on. He says some beautiful sounding things, but what about all the negative, self serving, harmful things he says? I think a lot of the premies have stopped listening CONSCIOUSLY to what he says, if it doesn't suite them. When I became involved with our local committee, there was a great focus on propagation. I started really listening to EVERYTHING Rawat was saying, the way I knew and aspirant would. I came to realize that there was a lot of creepy stuff that I had been just habitually ingnoring, just putting on a shelf in my mind somewhere, because I didn't know how, or want, to deal with it. It think lots of premies do this, and after a while it just becomes and unconcious habit. Helping with the video library, I learned about the color coded videos, and realised that instead of just "letting people hear satsang" and decide for themselves if it was for them, there was instead this very elaborate "propaganda" machine to persauade people to get all emotional and stop asking questions. The creepy stuff was all on the "later" videos, for people who stopped asking questions. The Atlanta training video was the final straw. It was worthy of the Moonies! Have you seen it? It was so disrepectful to the premies. Where was the LOVE that made me interested in recieving Knowledge in the first place? Anyway, I'm not sure how you think we are "hung up" on the "gift". I don't think it's a gift at all, since M. can't give away something he doesn't own, so how can I be hung up on it? It's not an issue for me. :) I'm not sure what the issue is for you. Perhaps we could talk about it more later if you like, but I gotta go to work now.

Subject: Re: Hung up? How so? From: Mili To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 18:13:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, the techniques are a gift. If you wish to receive them from Mr Rawat, that is. That's all I am saying. What you get out of them is yours, because once you accept the gift, it ceases to be a gift and it becomes your property. I've never understood it to be otherwise. You can read all kinds of hidden 'meanings' to the aspirant process and all kinds of hidden strings attached to it all, but I really think it's just letting your imagination run wild. I think it's pretty fair to give people ample time to watch as many videos as possible, or broadcasts, or go to introductory events, and to decide if this thing is for them or not. How could it be otherwise? And it's also true that you can walk away from it any time you want. You guys are the living example of that. We could talk about it, sure. Somehow I don't think we'd ever end up agreeing on anything, though. That's how it's been for a couple of years on these forums. So maybe we could spare each other the trouble.

Subject: Re: Hung up? How so? From: Chuck S. To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 05:20:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A "gift" implies that something is bestowed apon the reciever by the giver. Rawats "gift" is four yoga techniques that nobody owns, that can be gotten from many places, free. Why do you suppose he asks that it be kept secret? When I recieved Knowledge, it wasn't called a gift, it was explained to me that it was a simple experience inside of everyone, and that Maharaji, the teacher, just revealed it to you, made you aware of it. Sounds harmless, right? 20 years later, it's the "gift" that you can only get from the Master, and only when you've watched enough videos and no longer ask questions. Then you get to get it from a DVD, and subscribe to Dish Newtork to "keep in Touch". What the hell happened? Where is the love? You can make judgements about me, and think I'm reading "hidden meanings" into the aspirant process. But on what are you basing these judgements? I helped at video events, I worked in the video library, I stuck the color coded lables on the cassetes, I WATCHED the darn things, many of them several times, and did my best to familiarize myself with their contents, so I could make recommendations when asked. I participated in weekly committee meetings, where propagation and the aspirant process was discussed at great length and in detail. It may make you feel better to imagine that I'M letting my imagination run wild, so you can just dismiss what I'm saying without considering it. But I am actually talking from my own experience, not things I've imagined. Do you think that I WANTED to believe I was working for a cult, and just let my imagination run wild to see that? I actually spent years trying to prove to myself that I was NOT involved with a cult, despite quite a few things that pointed to the contrary. I did not want to see what I was seeing, and had to do mental gymnastics to avoid seeing it. And when I finally could no longer deny it, it really, really hurt. When I saw the Atlanta training video, I knew Maharaji didn't really care about us, the premies, other than to use us to enrich himself. I couldn't believe how disrespectful he was. Where was the love? I cried when I saw that video, it was a dagger in my premie heart. Did you see that video? This is the third time I'm asking you this question. I started off answering a few of your questions, so would you mind at least answering a few of mine? This isn't an interrogation, I just want to know if you've seen the same things I have. Have you done syncronized participation? Helped with video events? Worked with you local Commitee, with weekly attendence at meetings? Familiarized yourself with video library materials? Attended any trainings? What is your experiece? If you are going to judge me as having an imagination that I let run wild, then I think as a courtesy, you could let me know a little bit about your experience with these things, that perhaps you are basing your judgement on. Even if you've only watched videos, I'm sure I've seen many of the same ones. I'm just wondering about how much of the other stuff you know about. You ended your post with: "We could talk about it, sure. Somehow I don't think we'd ever end up agreeing on anything, though. That's how it's been for a couple of years on these forums. So maybe we could spare each other the trouble." In one way it seems like you just want to brush me off. And I can appreciate the honesty, or bluntness, as I don't wish to waste my time here either. But I also have to wonder, why are you here? To just tell us that we are wrong, but that you don't want to talk about it? When I first posted here, I was already an ex-premie. I was imediately asked questions by people, and at first I was kind of taken aback by that. Why were people questioning ME? It was uncomfortable, at first. Soon I discovered, that people were asking questions because they didn't understand what I meant, or needed to clarify some details, or to add some observations of their own, or offer more information, or help me see it in a different way. Sometimes I would agree with them and sometimes not, sometimes I would even get in arguments (and I don't like arguments). To this day there are still people I don't agree with, and some things I won't discuss with some people, simply because I know we'll never agree, and I accept that. The whole point of posting on these forums is to talk, communicate, which means asking questions, and being asked questions and answering questions. That's not always enjoyable, it can push your comfort zones a bit but it can also be a real postitive learning process. Sometimes you don't even know what YOU think, untill you hear what you have to say. You and I may never agree on anything, I don't know. We'll only find that out by talking. It's not like I NEED you to agree with me about anything. I have premie friends that don't want to talk about M&K, and we don't. But M&K is the topic here so it's kinda hard to avoid. Anyway, won't you at least humor me with a few answers? I promise not to bite, kick or scratch. |D +) :P

Subject: As usual,great points are ignored... From: Jim S. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:59:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck S. and JHB- Once again,I am amazed at how good, simple, clear points are made,and questions asked, only to be returned by non-answers by premie apologists. Like when Jim H. reiterates what we were told in the 1970's, about surrendering to m, because he was the MESSIAH.... This is something we were told every night in satsang and sang a 15 minute song twice a day to further reinforce into our consciousness... Now, the apologists ask us whether or not it was US who were mistakenly looking for a messiah, inferring that m was mistakenly cast in that light by our misconceptions... Every time people try to explain it away, they only get caught deeper and deeper in their own web of deceipt...it's really quite pathetic, and also quite revealing of the premie mindset that requires them to 'keep on believing'....funny how the rationalizations 'morph' to fit the question, but the basic dynamic remains the same: Say whatever you have to say to keep the myth alive. Isn't it funny how premies believe that 'the mind' can't understand knowledge, and they actually stay away from using it in reference to m and k, but they go into overtime and overdrive to use 'the mind' to explain away all of the questions that can't be answered? When m repeats the hindu claptrap about the world being maya, and the mind ready to eat you up etc., it only reinforces the childlike dependency relationship with him.... This is what keeps the devotees coming back for more and more, and money coming in and in... This is what rawat has built his fortune on, and continues to build it on, while simultaneously preaching about 'self reliance' and the 'stupidity of the world' and the 'dangers of the mind'... It is also the foundation for the 'helpless devotee' mindset of the premies, leading to hopelessness without the master to save oneself, helplessness to make oneself happy without the master, childish immaturity in the name of 'childlike innocence', and stunted emotional/psychological growth in the name of 'not getting into the world or the mind'.... So nice to be free....

Subject: Disappointing, and not just here... From: Chuck S. To: Jim S. Date Posted: Wed, May 15, 2002 at 01:53:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was disappointing to write such a detailed response, only to have it ignored. But oddly enough, he went over to AG, and posted that we don't allow opposing viewpoints here, and that the exes here were all people who left long ago, recieved knowledge before 1980, ect. So I couldn't resist. I reminded him that I had recieved K christmas eve of 1981, and had only left a year and a half ago. He started to talk a little, I said I didn't want to argue, but was interested in his opinon, and wanted to know a little more about his experience with M&K, but it ended the same way. :(

Subject: Revisionism From: PatC To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 14:26:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said to Jim H on LG: perhaps the meditation should be blamed as it ''wipes the tape clean'' everyday. Rawat and his devotees perhaps can't even really remember the past because they have deleted the files from their hard-drives. That way leads to madness and we have some shining example in this thread of premie insanity and deceit.

Subject: Yes, that was particularly stupid From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 16:28:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What really irritated me about that one, by the way, is that it was an ex of all people, Robyn, bemoaning the fact that Mili never gets a chance to get a word in edgewise here what with all the badgering he endures! Anyone who's ever followed or bothered to read the history of the forum would know that that was a complete lie.

Subject: Yes, with exes like FOC who needs.... From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 16:47:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...cultweasels? (FOC = Friends of Catweasel.)

Subject: Yes, that FOC thing... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:05:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: has become quite strange don't you think?

Subject: utterly bizarre [nt] From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:09:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: utterly bizarre From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:14:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Yes, it's quite bizzare. It's especially bizarre when you have participated on this forum or previous ones with the individuals who now are playing this weird game with Catweasel, et al. There is no communication anymore only infantile insults and sometimes the temptation to respond overcomes me. I don't want to bring that shit here though. It's been calm , rational and peaceful here. How are you? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: utterly bizarre From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:37:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia! Always gives me a funny feeling when talking to someone you've never met and you're both online at the same time.... I'm fine thanks - how are you? I've been away on a course for a couple of days and am back now, raring to post! There's a lot of interesting stuff from the last couple of days. All that about the vows has brought back just how much total sincerity we all felt back then when trying to dedicate our lives to someone who claimed to be God in human form. He asked for nothing less. And yes, those exes over on LG cosying up to premies - I'm baffled. Perhaps they think their enemy's enemy must therefore be their friend, or something - well, if they want to get themselves into that sort of tangle, it's up to them, but they certainly won't get themselves any clearer. Good luck to them. I'm exhausted and off to bed - hope you had a good weekend! Lots of love, Livia XXX

Subject: Re: Revisionism From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 15:20:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The cult has been revised so much that premies like Mili believe that the Hindu trappings were to blame for exes' 'disappointment' in m and the cult. As if I left because I did or didn't like them. It's irrational thinking. 'O-Kay...I'll forget that we were told to join ashrams by GMJ himself and give up everything including our bodies and minds. Now I'll go to Amaroo and call him Prem and drink at the bar and smoke dope.' (Not that there's anything wrong with that:) But, hey, come on! The point is the denial of all things in the past which began with the big video and book burnings and closing of the ashrams, IMO. Did M really think that flat out gopis would really throw away that stuff? Strip down their altars in their homes? It's a mindf**k because the inability to even accept that the original Knowledge vow existed and refusing to answer a question about what was behind it proves that forgetfulness is necessary to remain with Prem Rawat. Hit edit, select all, delete and enter...file erased. You're right, Pat. I was raised in a devout Roman Catholic family and I didn't have much difficulty getting that religion our of my system. I know some former RCs do have difficulties with it but that's another subject. I never believed that the Pope was the direct connection to G.O.D. I thought the priests and nuns were quite nutty even as a little kid. But, in the Maharajism cult I did come to believe that he was a god in a bod, LOTU, every leaf, lila, and all that stuff. Getting over that is quite a different story. I never tried at Christ's request to surrender my entire life to him. With Maharaji, I did. Why? Because of programming and my particular needs at the time. It's hard to know when freedom of thought ended and cult-beliefs kicked in. When I became aware of the con-game and Maharaji's scams, freedom of thought did kick back in, yet there was a whole world of twisted and convoluted beliefs to work out of my mind and feelings. Can anyone think of a 'restore' procedure for these premies so they can remember how it really was?B)

Subject: No, their hard-drives have to be replaced :P [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 16:09:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Not that easy, Pat... [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 21:15:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's not a gift... From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:17:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Read Anth's post again. I think it's a best of too. Why? Because he tells the truth about his life. He doesn't have to hedge questions, constantly convince himself of a belief system that weighs more than a car stuck in mud. I had experiences too. Good ones and bad ones. Maharaji was selling bottled air then telling us to breath it because it was special air--Goomraji's air. Just like his special 'lotus' feet, complete with fainting rooms and envelopes for quick cash. He's out of the picture now. The more he fades out of my life the weight of adoring him, obeying him, going broke over him, feeling sad, guilty, and bad over him, the more I feel good without him. Feeling happy is not contingent on a belief that M gave you anything. Because he gave you nothing. Mili, life and living is definitely much more fun post-cult. No question about it. You can have it all, most of all yourself. No strings, no trips, no fake highs, just fun and love. And thank's again Anth, for your great perspectives. Cynthia

Subject: Re: More fun... From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 15:51:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Rawat screamed at us to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji many many many times. He said we were like specks of dust and said GMJ could close the door on us at anytime. He said we were nothing. He said he had come with more powers than ever before. He said we should dedicate our lives to him. We had about 10 years (yes 10 years) of this before he toned it down a bit, without ever explaining all the earlier things he said. And you ask why we're so hung up on it? John.

Subject: Anth has answered this question many times From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 14:47:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, I'm sure he won't mind me speaking for him, but he has made this clear many times. He is having more fun now. He was certainly having a lot of fun the five or so time I've met him since we became exes. But as Marshall says, it doesn't matter anyway. If you have any respect for the truth you must examine your doubts about your beliefs. If your beliefs do not stand up to that examination, then you cannot live by them. John.

Subject: Re: Anth has answered this question many times From: Mili To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:22:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, It's really simple for me. Its all about Knowledge. Maharaji showed me the techniques. Well, actually, he sent an instructor to show the techniques. He didn't say anything to the effect of 'you have to believe that Maharaji is God first' or 'what you'll experience is God'. Just said give it a try and be open to whatever happens. I tried the techniques. I liked it, whatever it is. I still do.

Subject: Then why this vow? From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:40:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Did you ever take this vow? I did. Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your lotus feet. I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world. Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the knowledge of all knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside (sic) of me. Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality. I will OBEY you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason. I will keep in contact with you through my DEVOTIONAL LOVE, satsang,meditation and service.Thank you my LORD for everything.' I believe that's a bit more than 'try it, see if you like it.'

Subject: Re: Then why this vow? From: Mili To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:48:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why did you take the vow?

Subject: Mili - you are either truly From: Nigel To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 20:47:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..stupid or obnoxious. Cynthia (and I and thousands of others) took that vow because (a) that's what we had come to believe, or (b) because we wouldn't have 'received' those techniques if we didn't sprawl full-length before the arti-cushion and mouth those particular words. Now answer Cynthia's question.

Subject: Why take the vow??? From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:41:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, The vow was required in order to receive Knowledge. I could just see me telling Padarthanand ''Ummm, no, I'll say something a bit less demanding.'' The guy was scary. By the time I got to the point of even asking for K in New Haven, CT, I had been primed, programmed and prepared by the synchronized 'Aspirant Program' in my community to make sure I was 'ready' to take the vow. I take responsibility for going to satsang a few times and for being taken in by the vibe--even for becoming an aspirant. Yet once I was programmed there really wasn't much of a choice. I really thought I loved and wanted Maharaji. It was common information that the only way to get to him was through receiving K. Obviously since then I've awakend to the scam. Cult programming. When I read the phrase 'knowledge is for free' the cynicism of Maharaji stands out in view of that vow. Knowledge wasn't for free. Premies had to promise to dedicate their lives to Maharaji in this very direct way, keep the techniques secret, and worst of all, admit that we were weak, impure, and inferior to not only Maharaji, but the Mahatma who magically had some kind of cord directly connected to the Lord of the Universe which enabled him to impart Knowledge, which wasn't billed at the time as 'self-knowledge' but as the Knowledge of all Knowledges. A direct connection to the primordial vibration: life itself! Better yet, to the God in a bod who had control over every leaf that moved and knew every thought in my mind. We aspirants were drilled by the aspirant team to know that the experience of K 'within inside' was also a direct connection to--yup--the Lord Incarnate himself: Guru Maharaji Ji. Why did I take the vow? Because I was brainwashed into thinking Knowledge was something real and that M had come to earth greater than all past perfect masters. Greater than God. At the point of receiving knowledge I was beyond choice. And then it got even worse once the dark devotional period started and I was further convinced I was nothing but dust under M's feet.

Subject: Re: Why take the vow??? From: Mili To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 15:35:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry it turned out that way for you, Cynthia. I never felt pressured or coerced to do anything I didn't want to do. Just have been having a good time with it all through the years, basically. Different strokes for different folks, I guess! :) Take care, Mili

Subject: From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:10:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Are you talking about the same Guru as I am? Of course I didn't feel coerced. By the time I received K there wasn't a feeling of coersion it was loss of my freedom of thought. When did you receive knowledge Mili, and do you think that Maharaji, Prem Rawat, or whatever name he chooses...is a higher being than you or me? Do you believe he is divine. Can you answer one question without asking another? I'm not being glib, I'm simply asking. Cynthia

Subject: That's a bullshit reply, Mili From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:54:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Cynthia asked you a fair question and presented you with evidence that completely flies in the face of your earlier comment. The ball's in YOUR court now, not hers. What ABOUT that oath, Mili? What about it?? If you sincerely want to discuss this, you'll answer that. What you're doing is a classic trick so you don't have to answer anything. That's 'trick', Mili as in dishonest.

Subject: Re: That's a bullshit reply, Mili From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:57:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I didn't have to take that vow. So I was just curious as to what made Cynthia do it, that's all.

Subject: Sorry, bud, it's not your turn to ask From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:06:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Mili, you're out of turn. Just because you can think of some question to ask doesn't excuse you from answering hers. Anyone could play that game, Mili. Now, back to the question which was: Then why this vow? Come on, Mili, for once be honest here. Have a fair discussion. No one's treating you in the same childish way we get treated by your fellow premies when we try to have an honest discussion on LG. You can't complain that anyone's chasing you away, threatening you, throwing all the nuts and bananas in the treetops at you. All that's going is is that you're being expect to debate this issue fairly. Not to skirt it but to discuss it fairly. Now can you do that or not? Again, how can you reconcile your claim that it was no big deal, you either liked it or you didn't, no pressure to believe anything, with the fact that Maharaji used to make premies utter that vow when they received Knowledge?

Subject: Re: Sorry, bud, it's not your turn to ask From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:09:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How did Maharaji make premies utter that vow?

Subject: Re: Sorry, bud, it's not your turn to ask From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You had to say it in unison at the beginning of the Knowledge session. Okay, there's your sub-answer clarifying the question which, as we all know, you're finally going to answer, right? Well?

Subject: Re: Sorry, bud, it's not your turn to ask From: Mili To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:36:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The vow goes back to the Indian roots, I guess. It's kind of quaint. It went out in the early eighties, right? Maybe it's still used in India, I dunno. It's just the way Knowledge has been given for ages. There's a whole tradition to it, you know. I think it was a way of making sure the disciple will actually practice the techniques for a while. Discipline of a sort. And it does mention devotional love, not fear, as the bond of the relationship. My turn now?

Subject: Mili, please try to understand From: Livia To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:08:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your lotus feet. I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world. Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the knowledge of all knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside (sic) of me. Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality. I will OBEY you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason. I will keep in contact with you through my DEVOTIONAL LOVE, satsang,meditation and service.Thank you my LORD for everything.' Your comment, Mili: 'The vow goes back to the Indian roots, I guess. It's kind of quaint. It went out in the early eighties, right? Maybe it's still used in India, I dunno. It's just the way Knowledge has been given for ages. There's a whole tradition to it, you know. I think it was a way of making sure the disciple will actually practice the techniques for a while. Discipline of a sort. And it does mention devotional love, not fear, as the bond of the relationship.' Mili, do you really think we took that vow thinking 'how quaint'? In those days, you could not receive Knowledge without first making those vows. I received Knowledge in 1972 and took those vows, as did every single person receiving Knowledge in those days. It was the time of the greatest surge in numbers of people becoming premies. Thousands upon thousands of us took those vows and they were etched deeply into our psyches. We took those vows at a time when Maharaji made absolutely no attempt whatsoever to disabuse of us of the idea that he was God in human form. Look at EPO for the countless quotes from that time. 'Perfect Master is greater than God because Perfect Master reveals God. And as a matter of fact I am Perfect Master.' And of course the numerous references to Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed etc also being perfect masters. And then the references to God taking a human body.... You could not draw any other conclusion, and the abject adoration that went on around him was testament to that conclusion. Why do you think so many of us moved into ashrams and dedicated our whole lives to him? Just because he gave us a nice experience? I don't think so. Why do you think premies would go up to the front at programmes, where there was always an altar dedicated to him covered in flowers, and lie completely prostrate on the floor before it? Just because meditation made you feel happy? I don't think so. And where do you think the foundations of Maharaji's fabulous wealth come from? From premies who thought he was just a teacher of meditation? I really, really don't think so! When did you receive Knowledge, Mili? Did you really not know all this, or are you feigning ignorance? Can you really not understand why some of the people here are completely flummoxed by Maharaji's attempts to pin all of that on the concepts of the Indian mahatmas and the Hindu-inspired mysticism of the early premies? That is just so much nonsense! It was strong stuff, Mili, and it was very much part and parcel of what we heard from Maharaji for over ten years. Ten years of what was for most of us one of the most impressionable periods of our lives - our twenties. Mili, he can't just turn around and say, in effect, oh well - you can just forget all of that - and expect people not to feel totally flummoxed, unless he can accompany it with a credible explanation and/or an apology. Because, Mili, it wasn't just a few Hindu-based concepts that we mistakenly took too seriously - it was Maharaji's emphatic and continual declarations. He asked for total surrender to him, over and over and over and over again, for years and years and years and years and years. And now he's not God, never was, and total surrender a quaint anachronism from back then. And no explanation that anyone in their right mind could ever, ever accept with their integrity remotely intact. Just a totally surreal distortion of history and a blatant glossing over of something that he yelled, shouted, pleaded and cajoled us to accept for the best part of our young lives. And you come out with weird remarks like 'well, I was never made to take any vows; why did you?' to Cynthia. Either you really don't know what those days were like, or you are disingenuous in the extreme, and I don't know which you are. So please answer this question, Mili. Did you really not know how Maharaji portrayed himself in those days? And if your answer is 'no', can you still say, with a clear conscience, that anyone back then could possibly have seen those vows as just 'kind of quaint'? And taken them in the spirit of believing that they were just 'kind of quaint'? To be honest, Mili, I kind of feel sickened in my heart that you guys now think that's all it was, and that Maharaji has encouraged you to see it that way. Mili, he told it like he was the second coming, nothing more, nothing less. To suddenly drop all that, with no explanation that makes any sense, or bears any resemblance to the truth, and take absolutely no responsibility for having claimed it all in the first place, is completely outrageous, and to be honest it hurts me to my core. Please answer the question, as honestly as you possibly can. Livia

Subject: No, it's not your turn yet From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 21:52:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your lotus feet. I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world. Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the knowledge of all knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside (sic) of me. Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality. I will OBEY you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason. I will keep in contact with you through my DEVOTIONAL LOVE, satsang,meditation and service.Thank you my LORD for everything.' Your answer is a joke, I'm afraid. It doesn't even come close to acknowledging the fact that this vow proves the level of slavish devotion that was expected of anyone who received Knowledge. Mili, I've known you for years now. I know, as do you, that, for whatever reason, you will NEVER be honest about this. Take any man off the street and give him the one-minute capsule summary. 'Hey, fella, you got a minute? Thanks. Listen, do you mind? I know this is a bit out there and everything but, well, would you take a look at this vow? Yeah, that's right, it's a vow alright. This is what people used to have to say in order to received certain meditation techniques from this guru. His name then was Guru Maharaji Ji. Anyway, what do you get from reading this?' And every last one of them will give a more honest answer than you have. And that's with them knowing nothing about it. Add to that what both you and I and Cynth and all of us here DO know, all that Lord of the Universe stuff, all the pranams, arti, what have you, and they'd say that this was just one more bit of evidence, not that they needed it, that this guy was trying to completely squeeze his new devotees under his thumb big time. But you, Mili, are not honest. And, like I say, everyone knows. So what's the point, eh?

Subject: Rawat speaks for himself. From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:32:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mili, In the 'Leader' interview, Captain Rawat said, 'Rawat says, 'They don't move on to the next stage until they are convinced it's really for them.' In other words, 'You have to believe before you're shown the techniques.' Anth 'It's the same old song but with a different meaning since the juice has gone.'

Subject: Re: Rawat speaks for himself. From: Mili To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 16:35:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Believe what?

Subject: Re: Rawat speaks for himself. From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:08:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Believe what? --- Believe that there is such a thing as a Perfect Master. Believe that Rawat is the living Perfect Master. Believe that what you see when you press your eyeballs is your pure inner being (once called 'Divine Light') Believe that the other three meditation techniques give you similiar experience of inner peace, truth, true self, etc. (Like lots of people get "peace" praying to statues, pictures etc). Believe that Rawat is the 'master', of this inner experience (truth within). Believe that Rawat cannot make mistakes. Believe that you are not in a religious cult, but following a true living Master. Believe that the best thing you can do with your time is to serve your master. Believe that the best thing you can do with your extra money is give it to Rawat. I could go on all night Mili, but I guess you get the picture by now. Anth-it only works of you believe.

Subject: Re: Rawat speaks for himself. From: Mili To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:11:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why did you believe all that?

Subject: Mili. From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:10:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure I did Mili. How many of those statements do you believe? For example, do you believe there is such a thing as a Perfect Master? Anth wondering if she'll answer.

Subject: Quit playing Djuro From: Jim To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 17:12:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Are you just playing a game here or what?

Subject: Re: Belief and Experience From: Marshall To: Mili Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 13:15:17 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Mili, Don't you get it? There is no going back. Thank god. Who cares if AJW was 'having more fun' before when he still believed that the lard was the tooth fairy, it doesn't really matter, does it. Were you having more fun when you believed in Santa Claus? Maybe you still do believe in Santa Claus. If not, perhaps you can get a lobotomy done that will make you believe in Santa Claus once again, along with all the innocent, happy 3 and 4 year old children of the world, who are having 'more fun' than all the unhappy adults saddled with boring old REALITY. Wouldn't that be great?! Then you can be double happy along with your doublethink. Have YOU read 1984? Great book.

Subject: Scientology finally pays ex .. lots! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 15:44:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ex-Scientologist Collects $8.7 Million In 22-Year-Old Case By Richard Leiby Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, May 10, 2002; Page A03 Nearly 22 years ago, Lawrence Wollersheim, a disaffected member of the Church of Scientology, filed a lawsuit in Los Angeles accusing the church of mental abuse that pushed him to the brink of suicide. Teams of lawyers and various rulings came and went, all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Judgments against the church hit $30 million, then dropped to $2.5 million. But the Church of Scientology never paid -- until yesterday, when officials wrote a check for more than $8.6 million to end the case, one of the longest-running in California history. 'They stalled it and stalled it and stalled it,' said Wollersheim, 53, now of Nevada. He called his victory a landmark for former members of the church, which is known for heated and protracted legal battles. 'I'm smiling,' he said. 'It's like being the first plaintiff to get a victory against the cigarette companies.' Wollersheim, who ran a small photo business, joined Scientology in 1969 and later became a recruiter. He signed a 'billion-year' contract to serve the church but says that he ended up being punished in a 'thought reform gulag,' consigned to the hold of a ship docked off California for 18 hours a day. The ship was part of a mini-navy assembled by L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer who created the church in the early 1950s. Because of Scientology practices, 'Wollersheim's mental condition worsened to the point he actively contemplated suicide,' a California appeals court said in 1989. 'The church's conduct was manifestly outrageous.' Wollersheim,who suffered from a bipolar disorder, was forbidden to seek medical help under Scientology policies, he says. He quit the church after spending $150,000 on Hubbard's 'mental health' regimes, and by 1980 had filed suit. In 1986, a jury awarded him $5 million in compensatory damages and $25 million to punish the church for what jurors called intentional and negligent 'infliction of emotional distress.' The total was reduced on appeal to $2.5 million. But Scientology officials vowed they would pay 'not one thin dime for Wollersheim,' and members were rallied to chant that slogan at hearings. Church attorney William Drescher yesterday blamed Wollersheim in part for the long delay in resolving the case. 'From what I understand, Wollersheim didn't make any effort to collect [the judgment] for 11 years,' he said. But attorneys for Wollersheim said the church evaded payment by setting up corporate shells and employing endless hardball legal tactics, based on Hubbard policies that aim to ruin ex-members who sue the church. 'Twenty-two years is extraordinary,' attorney Ford Greene said. As the battle went on, the $2.5 million judgment -- upheld in 1994 by the U.S. Supreme Court -- collected interest at the statutory 10 percent rate. Yesterday, as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge was set to begin yet another hearing, the Church of Scientology of California suddenly threw in the towel. At 8:17 a.m., the church deposited $8,674,843 with the court clerk, ending the case. Wollersheim said 'significant amounts' of the judgment are owed to people who loaned him money on faith that he would eventually prevail. He also must pay off eight law firms that worked on contingency over the years. But on FACTNet.org -- his Web site, which stands for Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network -- he issued a buoyant statement, gloating, 'The cult that vowed it would never pay me one thin dime has now paid over 86 million thin dimes.'

Subject: Re: Scientology finally pays ex .. lots! From: Peter Howie To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 19:28:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi All! MJ or PR must have his eye on this $$ stuff. I mean given one of the serious reasons why he quit the ashrams was the dollar figure of the medical contingency expenses that were being racked up by sick and failing premies and instructors. An he can have this attitude and feel that he isn't interested in the money at all and so can premies. It is quite simple really. It is the same defense that the Roman Catholic church uses when it obfuscates about the child abuse scandels. Its goes like this. 'MJ or PR is on (or I am on)a sacred mission from the lord and is (I am)indeed the lord. So this mission is sacred. Who would be silly enough to let a bunch of disgruntled ex-followers de-rail this wondrous work. Better to use the existing systems to make sure that this does not occur. Darkness and the mind manifests itself in many ways and this is clearly one of them. So get the lawyers and accountants and international consultants to restructure so that I can keep on going. Lets learn from these other bozo's (scientology, RC church et al) about how to make the legal system work in favour of the lord rather than against as it has so many times throughout history. Onwards MJ. OOps I mean onwards PR. Cheers guys Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: The precedent is set From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 15:56:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think any recent or current premie who is experiencing symptoms of mental illness could sue Rawat for the exact same reasons and win fair and very large settlements.

Subject: Re: The precedent is set From: cq To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 08:41:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and not just mental illnesses, Ger - don't forget the health hazards that the premies who had the misfortune to work on the 707 plane project had to suffer. As for suing Rawat - was it L Ron Hubbard's estate or the 'Scientology' org that had to pay up?

Subject: Re: The precedent is set From: Vicki To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 16:27:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Under non profit organizational law, when one becomes defunct, it must transfer it's monies to another ie elan vital to pr foundation, or some such org.

Subject: Re: The precedent is set From: Loaf To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 03:13:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I doubt if EV, or TPRF has many assets. Amaroo (hardly counts as a giant asset on the balance sheet) was owned by a shell corporation (in that instance in the Channel islands), as are Residences etc etc etc.. Going after Maharaji personally would be interesting media wise, but it might be very very tricky to pin him down. He not stupid. I think we should seek to find the (no doubt financial) tactical reasons behind why EV vanished ? I think he saw this coming.

Subject: Yes, liquid assets go to retain lawyers. :P [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 04:22:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: k

Subject: with the golden toilet From: See the hippo like man To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 06:49:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and by the way, have you ever noticed that when someone is throwing up/barfing the noise they make sounds remarkedly similar to 'rawat, rawat...'-maybe that's the real holy name

Subject: Self-respect From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:23:40 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Oh dear, here I go again: I get caught up in a couple of forum exchanges with a faceless, socially dysfunctional shape-shifter with a bizarre line in irony and once again end up doing a thread post which will probably turn into a bloody thesis before the sun goes down. Oh well, here goes... Lower down this page, Anth wrote: Experience putting your moral values, common sense, pride, ambition, and purpose in life to one side, in exchange for becoming an undiscriminating devotee. Anth's sentence sums up elegantly the difference between exhood and a premiedom, and it boils down to one thing: self-respect. In my 'Journeys' entry I had a go at categorising three types of psychological damage the Rawat Movement inflicts on its devoteeship . To recap, these were: Emotional damage - those dysfunctional guru-dependent behaviour patterns which were (no doubt, subtly still are) inculcated even before an aspirant gets the self-knowledge of all self-knowledges: that 'I-am-weak-and-ignorant-and-full-of-the-impurities-of-this-world' training, shoved down our throats nightly, reinforced by the self-abasing drivel that is Arti; the downgrading and setting to one side of normal human interactions whilst cultivating our seeds of devotion to Godboy - no social expense too great, each damaged relationship a trivial non-issue. Cognitive damage - or toxic / magical thinking: the adoption of a world-view so warped one can believe that by watching one's breath, by manipulating digits and tongue according to prescientific prescription, one forms an inner connection with the 'infinite'; we redraft a world in which the master's divine plan is evident in our daily doings, his 'grace' working miracles when good fortune comes our way - teaching us important lessons when it does not. Motivational damage - shun worldly ambitions; abandon 'desires', 'attachments' and 'crazy minds'. Stop wanting, stop thinking, or aspiring to achieve, for the master has given you everything; there are no achievements beyond that golden carrot in the sky known as The Realisation of K. In an illusory world there are but two realities: your real self and the master, your only justifiable purpose lies in reinforcing the link between the two. After all, Rawatso is going to free you from the chains of maya and set you up for eternity, right? Anyway, I have rehashed these points to ask one question: how is it we so easily allow these strange, corrupting processes to happen? For sure, Rawatso does everything he can to lead us down these head-fucked paths, but how could we acquiesce so readily? Simple: by suspending disbelief and trusting too long in a worthless promise we loosen the mooring ropes to our self-respect. The self-respect goes gradually, peeling off like skins of a onion, almost unnoticed... We lose a little self-respect every time we try explaining to a stranger why you have to wait for K, without being wholly convinced by our own arguments. We lose some more when we tell our partners that only Rawat's love is real (irrespective of what we really feel). We forfeit still more self-respect every time that... - we repeat, uncritically to others Rawat's extravagant claims and promises, re. personal divinity, banishing war and feeding the planet - we later forget or, worse, deny he ever made those claims - children are denied proper holidays because a faraway event is approaching - we ignore negative information pertaining to Rawat's lifestyle and habits - we claim to 'know', what, in truth we merely believe - we tell newcomers that K is a free, 'suck-it-and-see' experience - making no mention of the frequently long, humiliating aspirant process, the financial donations and unpaid service that will be expected... - we forego meat, fish, fowl, ciggies and alcohol for no better reason than Rawatso says we should - we resume enjoying meat, fish, fowl, ciggies and alcohol for no better reason Rawatso says it doesn’t matter any more - we give up reading books, either because Rawatso said he never reads them or because books are banned from ashrams - we share satsang daily for no better reason than Rawatso says that is a vital part of our practice - we stop sharing satsang daily for no better reason than Rawatso says satsang is no longer our responsibility, nor even our right - we prostrate at Rawatso’s feet in darshan - we allow ‘Lord of the Universe’ to become ‘Just a teacher’ as if nothing much had happened - we laugh at his lead-balloon jokes or –for God’s sake - admire his poetry.. etc., etc.. I would distinguish between self-respect and self-esteem. Premies are frequently full of the latter, especially those with some privileged status in the cult or special service to perform - and, anyway, aren’t all premies blessed with a special status in their own minds, by virtue of being among the chosen few? For me, self-respect is more about allowing one's natural curiosities and thought processes to go where they like or need to go; about having a set of values; about caring how you interact with others and caring how the world sees you; about allowing your ideas, questions, doubts and natural emotions to be expressed openly and without fear. It is about confidence in your desires, your worldview, your beliefs and friendships. It is about being able to hold your head up and not flinch from innocent and valid questions that might throw the average premie into paroxysms of confusion, embarrassment and rapid retreat into the pseudo crib-state of ‘within inside’. Just being the person you surely would have been had the cult not bundled you up, bound your hands, stuck invisible electrodes into your brain and moulded you into the kind of identikit zombie who could, for example, post those mind-numbing, grovelling banalities to the ELK ‘expressions’ board. There is a danger in making sweeping generalisations - of applying too broad a brush, but I think pretty well all premies visiting this forum lack self-respect on some level. You can see it in the self-censorship, in the forbidden paths of natural discourse where they fear to tread, in the misplaced self-certainty, in the assumed right to abuse former followers, and in the anonymity and alias-swapping. Perhaps their greatest inhibition lies in their incapacity to recognise ex-premies as people who were once just the same as them, whose sincereity, commitment and experiences of K were probably no greater or less than their own, but cling instead to the comforting belief that, somehow, ex-premies somehow ‘failed to understand’ or just wanted an exotic Hindu lifestyle trip, or somesuch. Next they’ll be talking about ‘Prem’s’ gift of ‘Self-Knowledge’ as if those had always been the most sensible terms to employ. Wait and see… it will be interesting to watch.

Subject: Thanks all - especially Chris Bailey From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:38:14 (EDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ..and thanks OTS for nice email. Appreciated, all of you. I've been up to our log-cabin home in the sky with the love of my life for the weekend, offline, so have only just read the replies. Just glad it rang true for some of you. You would not believe the size of the hangover I was under when I typed that fucker... Luv to all..Nige

Subject: Re: Self-respect From: Chris Bailey To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 21:51:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your long expungement. The reason we send you the 'faceless' ones is exactly that. To extract and exorcise those deeply troublesome concepts that have been lying in your psyche and causing discomfort for much too long. One small point though - 'Perhaps their greatest inhibition lies in their incapacity to recognise ex-premies as people who were once just the same as them, whose sincereity(sic), commitment and experiences of K were probably no greater or less than their own, but cling instead to the comforting belief that, somehow, ex-premies somehow ‘failed to understand’or just wanted an exotic Hindu lifestyle trip, or somesuch. ' Oh no. Not at all Nigel. We know you understood! After all, wasn't it you who gaced us that inciteful and completely accurate summation of what happened to us all when Maharaji sprayed coloured water around while we danced in our white clothing? You told us it was a location based mental delusion based on the pop star syndrome. Perhaps you'd be good enough to share some more of your 'understanding' with us all. Say, an explanation of what really happens to us when we meet Maharaji face to face for those few seconds at a large event? Yes, that will increse our understanding and enjoyment manyfold. But please don't ever say 'people who were once just the same as them' because that would be neither true or accurate. And we wouldn't want you to despoil your unique reputation for clarity and understanding. After all, you are a unique individual Nigel and, fortunately for the rest of us, there will only ever be, ONE, of you.

Subject: Quod erat demonstrandum... [nt] From: Nigel To: Chris Bailey Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:24:44 (EDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message:

Subject: The Oracle has spoken From: Chris Bailey To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 10:41:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah yes PatC That must be it. But for all your loyal and pompous posturing my friend.... I'm afraid that Mr Redcrow and the good lurkers of this establishment will have gotten the grit of my message Loud and Clear. A piece of advice for both of you.... GO FOR THE BALL AND STOP TRYING TO NOBBLE THE MAN.

Subject: The fuckwit has spoken From: Nigel To: Chris Bailey Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 20:05:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Person, you said: I'm afraid that Mr Redcrow and the good lurkers of this establishment will have gotten the grit of my message Loud and Clear. A piece of advice for both of you.... GO FOR THE BALL AND STOP TRYING TO NOBBLE THE MAN. [My removal of spaces] I am happy you have so many good lurkers looking over your shoulder appreciating your message. Do any of them use their real names? Why not introduce a couple? As for 'going for balls' and 'nobbling men' - I don't have a clue what you are talking about, though maybe your travelling army of hidden lurkers do. 'Ball' and 'man' are, presumably, metaphors. But for what? Suggestion: Why not deal with points raised in the original thread post? If I am wrong on any point of fact then please tell me where. If my judgements are flawed in some way, I would be happy to discuss these with you. As things stand, you sound slighty unhinged and socially dysfunctional. What do the good lurkers think? Meanwhile, how about replying to Jim, below, where he says 'Great question - what's your explanation?'

Subject: Re: Self-respect From: Jim To: Chris Bailey Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 22:10:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After all, wasn't it you who gaced us that inciteful and completely accurate summation of what happened to us all when Maharaji sprayed coloured water around while we danced in our white clothing? You told us it was a location based mental delusion based on the pop star syndrome. So what's YOUR explanation? Perhaps you'd be good enough to share some more of your 'understanding' with us all. Say, an explanation of what really happens to us when we meet Maharaji face to face for those few seconds at a large event? Great question. What do YOU think?

Subject: Re: Self-respect From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 14:59:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you professor for that intelligent and inciteful analysis. Every word rings true. It is certainly important to discern between self-respect and self-esteem. Excellent point. What a difference to have self-worth be resident in oneself rather than a Bhakti hologram. This post could easily serve as a yardstick for premies to self-critique what their belief structure consists of. Glad you and Moley come up for air occasionaly to grace us with your wit and wisdom.;) Cheers, Richard

Subject: Excellent point, Nige From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 14:38:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Soooooo ture! Er, soooooo true! Ture AND true! As I just said to Harry on LG, it doesn't matter how slick or well-presented a premie can make the argument for trusting Maharaji, unless they can lay their doubts on the table, it's bullshit. (Am I on topic?) Excellent, excellent post, Nige. I just know that when premies read this one they're going to finally surrender their resistance and start listening to their 'doubt-makers'. I mean, what else could they possibly need? Agya? Jim

Subject: Great clarity - thanks Nigel From: Thorin To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 05:06:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel What a great post to start the day with - the sun is certainly not going down. by suspending disbelief and trusting too long in a worthless promise we loosen the mooring ropes to our self-respect As a wise sage here sometimes has remarked 'Live your Doubt' :) Thanks again. I am sure your post will strike a rich chord with many fence-sitting premies who lurk here. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Great clarity - thanks Nigel From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 06:49:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nigel, I'll second that. What a brilliant, perceptive post - one of the best I've read. You said it all there and put words to a feeling I had all along as a premie; that endless justifying of the unjustifiable, and what it does to your soul in the process. Brilliant, and thanks for taking the time to write it. Love, Livia

Subject: Thank you, Nigel From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:37:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking the time to write that. I know that it is not easy, after you have posted here for a long time, to find the oomph to write something really fresh but, reading this, I felt very glad that you made the effort. Nail on head as usual, especially: There is a danger in making sweeping generalisations - of applying too broad a brush, but I think pretty well all premies visiting this forum lack self-respect on some level. You can see it in the self-censorship, in the forbidden paths of natural discourse where they fear to tread, in the misplaced self-certainty, in the assumed right to abuse former followers, and in the anonymity and alias-swapping. Perhaps their greatest inhibition lies in their incapacity to recognise ex-premies as people who were once just the same as them, whose sincereity, commitment and experiences of K were probably no greater or less than their own, but cling instead to the comforting belief that, somehow, ex-premies somehow ‘failed to understand’ or just wanted an exotic Hindu lifestyle trip, or somesuch. How true, how sad. Perhaps I should have titled my post BEST OF FORUM because yours was brilliant. Thanks.

Subject: ***BEST of**** Excellent ! [nt] From: Loaf To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:33:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Parallel universe? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 15:50:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Law Before Law Boston's Cardinal Law Gives Deposition in Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal By Ron Claiborne B O S T O N, May 8 — Cardinal Bernard Law managed to avoid being deposed four times in the past year to answer questions about sex abuse charges against Catholic priests. No longer. Today, Law completed the first of an expected three days of questioning by the lawyers representing the 86 alleged victims of the former priest John Geoghan. For Law, the deposition — the first of what could be a series of interrogations by attorneys for other plaintiffs — is fraught with risk. The risk is that he cannot adequately or rationally explain how and why he kept an accused repeat pedophile in parish posts, where he had access to children. In September of 1984, Law received a letter from Marge Gallant, a woman complaining that Geoghan had molested her three nephews and four grandnephews. Two months later, Geoghan was sent from St. Brendan's Parish in Boston to St. Julia's Parish in suburban Weston. Law said he only transferred Geoghan after getting assurances from 'medical experts' that Geoghan did not pose a danger. 'My policy would have been that an assignment of this kind would be contingent upon a professional opinion that such an assignment would be appropriate,' he said. When asked whether he had, in fact, received such an assurance, Cardinal Law could not recall, but insisted: 'I'm sure that that medical assurance was given.' Forced to Explain Geoghan allegedly went on to molest more young boys at St. Julia's. He was convicted in January of sexually molesting one of them, a 10-year-old boy, in 1991. He is serving a 9-to-10 year sentence in prison. The deposition will force Law to convincingly explain how he could continue to rely on the assurances of doctors that Geoghan was no longer a threat to children when complaints and accusations of pedophilia piled up in his file over three decades. Plaintiff lawyers are likely to hammer away at this point — that it was unreasonable for anyone to continue to put their faith in doctors' evaluations when complaints of sexual abuse of children continue to pour in. William Gordon, co-counsel in the Geoghan civil suits who did most of the questioning today, also questioned Law at great length about the tentative settlement with the plaintiffs. Two months after the accord was reached, the defendants, including Law, pulled out of the deal, citing the high cost of paying future litigants similar sums. The alleged Geoghan victims are trying to get a judge to enforce the tentative settlement — at as estimated cost to the Boston archdiocese of $15 million to $30 million — because it was an oral contract. The plaintiffs' lawyers tried to get Law to concede that he considered the agreement a done deal. The accord was nullified when the archdiocese's Finance Council rejected the accord over Law's recommendation. Judge Constance Sweeney will hold a hearing later this month on whether the original agreement is an enforceable contract. During the deposition, Law admitted that he thought the council's only role in the process was advisory.

Subject: Re: Parallel universe? From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 20:50:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Law also could not remember anyone warning him about some other perv, Shanley, I think, even though his own personal secretary had sent Law a letter warning him of this priest. Law annoted the letter to the effect that something had to be done quickly. We all know what that 'something' was. Rawat will be making many more payments for his parallel actions re jagdeo. That's a better bet than gold calls any day...

Subject: Bring back the stocks! From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:43:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, this Law creature is so disgusting. Yes, the catholic church in all its disgusting arrogance, is a parallel universe. I've been in the belly of the beast and it is sick. In fact, if there are any former catholic exes who want to help destroy this evil empire, let me know. I think we could help ex-catholics a lot to understand their cult.

Subject: 'Expression'?? Try STIFLED From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 15:27:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: Expression - today Kathy Miller From Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK Today was just like another other - except it wasn't because this past weekend I spent it with premies, listening to what Maharaji had to say about 'helping out' and other things about this wonderful Knowledge. Tonight after a really, really mad busy day at work I came home and switched on the satellite transmission and just listened - Maharaji in Tokyo 2000. It doesn't matter where he is speaking from. Knowledge is the only thing that makes sense and brings me real, true and inspirational joy. It happens in so many ways and and I feel so incredibly fortunate. In my lunch break today I sent an e-mail to my teacher on another website. The only thing I could think of was 'Thank you' - so little to say but it means so much to me: Knowledge , my teacher. they both mean everything to me. Poor deluded cult member! Nothing but his cult programming makes sense to her, it's all she wants to talk about and yet, when she does try to say something to her captor she's speechless. 'Expression' my ass!

Subject: Bloody hell - I know this person From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 18:05:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were aspirants together ( 20 odd years ago,gawd). She's been to my house a couple of years ago (more by email!). yet, when she does try to say something to her captor she's speechless. 'Expression' my ass! Kinda odd as she is an English lecturer highly academic, doing a PhD!!!

Subject: PhD? Pretty happily deluded? :P From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:48:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But seriously - what's her PhD in? And just how many times has she watched reruns of the ''Tokyo 2000'' televangelism? Well, even smart people can be emotionally needy.

Subject: PhD in English Literature! From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 08:04:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep - on the button there Pat with the emotionally needy bit. And what better way to perpetuate that than to look for your emotional fulfillment from a cult leader. I once knew a Frenchman (yes, that is 'knew' in the biblical sense) who had a friend who got K - I'll always remember how he described the post-K change in her.... he said she had got a big hole inside her. (oops that didn't mean to be a double entendre!) PS, if I don't respond to your responses, if you see what I mean, it's cos we're going to love-shack sans internet for the w/end xx

Subject: Oh, English Literature! From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 12:54:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is she also a post-modernist? I bet she loves Ellsworth P. Toohey's ''The Gallant Gallstone.''

Subject: Pat - what is the 'Gallant Gallstone' From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 18:31:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and who is E. P Toohey - can I do my MLitt on her/him. Help. I'm desperate.

Subject: The Gallant Gallstone From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 19:25:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an invention of Ayn Rand in her novel The Fountainhead: A book glorifying giving up the self. Written by Lois Cook, promoted by Ellsworth Toohey and made a huge success. In The Fountainhead, one of Ayn Rand's potboiler mash notes to capitalism, newspaper columnist Ellsworth P. Toohey champions The Gallant Gallstone. That The Gallant Gallstone is as terrible as the title suggests (if not more so) is beside the point; Toohey wields so much power and influence he can 'convince' the literati and the hoi polloi alike into believing it is 'the product of a scintillating brain.' I know, I know - it's only Ayn Rand but Toohey is still one of my favorite villains. The Gallant Gallstone is about exalting mediocrity as the most fair and egalitarian system and fuck creative geniuses. The Fountainhead www.aynrand.org/fiction/fountainhead.html

Subject: Is 'self-knowledge' copyright protected? From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 12:34:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat's new name for his pick-and-mix meditation techniques might be getting publicity for a different group altogether! www.selfknowledge.org www.selfknowledge.org/resources/press/press.htm

Subject: Another financially successful spiritual leader From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:48:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The above link is just for fun. The leader of the ''Self Knowledge Symposium'' is August Turak who was featured in ''Entrepreneur'' magazine. I wonder if Rev Rawat got his idea for the ''Leaders'' mag article from this guy: August Turak was 21 years old when the spirituality bug bit him, leading him to quit college to study with a Zen master. Although he went on to finish college and has since founded four software publishing companies, spirituality is still foremost in his mind. 'I consider myself a spiritual person who happens to own a business--not a businessperson who does spiritual things,' says Turak, founder of Houston-based Elsinore Technologies Inc. and Raleigh, North Carolina-based Flynt Technologies, TeamVizor Inc. and Raleigh Group International. Turak, 47, spends every Christmas, Easter and summer vacation at the Mepkin Abbey in South Carolina as a monastic guest--living, working and praying with 25 Cistercian monks. Although he jokes his employees fear he won't return from one of his trips, Turak says his business wouldn't be as successful if he didn't go. He finds his inspiration in the monks (average age: 65), who run several successful businesses and maintain a 7,000-acre farm. 'What I take away [from my visits] is marvel and awe of what these quiet men accomplish by having an attitude of `Ask not what the community can do for me, but what I can do for the community,'' Turak says. 'They don't teach this kind of behavior, attitude and values in business school. I'm doing what some guys do by going to Harvard Business School for a few weeks every year to bone up on econometrics. I think most of them would be far better off going to a monastery and learning the kind of values that allow them to find, meet and hold on to the right people.' God's Home Page www.netstore.de/~god/

Subject: Warning! Warning! From: CultaGram To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 06:39:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To: All current & potential receivers of LEADERSmagazine Subject:Most recent issue Be advised that the most recent issue of the above mentioned magazine features a notorious cult leader, who has created much concern over his legitimacy. There are far more former followers of this character than current. This raises the question WHY. Rather than answer this directly, it is suggested that you conduct an internet search of your own. Further, it is suggested you note the various names used by this individual, as well as, the various organizational names used. After conducting your own investigation, it will allow you to decide for yourself if you want to be linked in anyway with this individual. The magazine, itself, appears to be credible. However, they apparently failed to conduct the above mentioned search on this individual. Your feedback to them may be useful. While some will say this individual has been beneficial to them, others speak of the great harm caused by their involvement in what they would describe as a dangerous 'spiritual' cult. You decide and act accordingly!

Subject: Re: Warning! Warning! From: Dewey, Cheetum and Howe To: CultaGram Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 10:10:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CultaGram, It has come to our attention that you have slandered the good name of Leaders Magazine. Therefore we request that you cease and desist publishing lies about the magazine and the subject of it's interview, in this case, one Prim Ratwit. (Evelyn, please spellcheck prior to distribution.) Further, we seek damages on behalf of Leaders Magazine in the amount of $7 million to restore Serenity. Not only are they all in a tizzy at Leaders, they are forced to change their name and demographic. Henceforth, the publication will be known as Bleeders Magazine and will be targeted towards inbred royalty. Be governed accordingly! Regards, Mr. Toast Postie Dewey, Cheetum and Howe - Attorneys at Law

Subject: I protest ! From: D. Shepard To: Dewey, Cheetum and Howe Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 13:27:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not fair. We at Sheep Fanciers Unlimited were all set to publish our club publication titled Bleaters Magazine! D. Shepard SFU

Subject: Me too! From: Professer Micron To: D. Shepard Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 13:30:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I protest too! We at Metric Fanatics International were going to put out a journal titled Litres. Not now. Professer Micron MFI

Subject: Hey, no faiw... From: Elmer Fudd To: Professer Micron Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 15:36:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to pubwish a new magazine cawwed Weadews fow Wabbits. You wuined aww my pwans.

Subject: M 'describes' the process of reaching k From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 17:47:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More evasive bullshit from the Leaders Magazine interview: Can you describe the process of reaching self-knowledge? The first step is getting familiar with what I offer. This may involve coming to a presentation. People listen to me and, if they're interested, they pursue their interest and listen to more of my lectures. They don't move on to the next stage until they are convinced it's really for them. Each person proceeds at his or her own pace. This can take a few weeks, several months or, in some cases, years. After they're sure they're interested I teach them some techniques that allow them to get in touch with the simplicity that's inside all of us. It's really a question of presenting the possibilities to people. If you focus within you can start up the ladder of success from the right place, rather than just reaching for the outside trappings of success. Of course I'm not dismissing that kind of achievement. It's extraordinary what some people have accomplished in this world. But success really begins within you. Okay, I'm about to take a nap. Perhaps, Andrea, you'd like to go first this time? :)

Subject: Re: M 'describes' the process of reaching k From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:18:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They don't move on to the next stage until they are convinced it's really for them. Each person proceeds at his or her own pace. This can take a few weeks, several months or, in some cases, years. How stupid does this guy expect people to be? Really, you've got to be a real fucking numbnuts to fall for this guy's line that it could take years for you to decide if you want to receive Knowledge. In fact, if you do fall for this bullshit, you ARE that stupid, not to mention how stupid you are if it DOES take that long to decide. Years ago, it was somewhat understandable for people to take their time about receiving Knowledge because you were taking on much more than being revealed a handful of meditation techniques. You were contemplating dedicating your life into the service of Guru Maharaji, accepting him as you would Jesus Christ your personal saviour. No small step. But today? Man, it's no where's near that heavy. If it takes you more than an hour to decide if you want to learn some techniques that supposedly are going to take you to this perfect place within, you've got a problem making up your mind about things. Unless, of course, it really is about deciding if you want M the Prem as your personal saviour. But let's just keep all that hush hush. Heck, if Maharaji doesn't want to spill the beans that's what it's all about, why should I?

Subject: It's so obvious. From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 10:53:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What he's really saying: The first step is having a loved one or friend who is a premie and who drags you to an event or video. If people listen to me enough the first seeds of the process is sowed. They don't move onto the next phase unless basic brainwashing has occurred. The procession from quasi brainwashing to total brainwashing can take a few weeks, several months or, in some cases, years. After they have swallowed it hook, line and sinker, they attend the knowledge session. It's really nothing much, just a few techniques. It's so easy I'd have to label them simpletons. It's really a question of saying you have something that someone wants. You know something they don't. Carnivals have been doing it for years. The oldest trick in the book. And if you buy my program you most probably will be successful. You'll be able to climb the ladder. You'll be so much more successful. Of course some people are successful without having self knowledge. But it was so much harder for them. And the reason it was in the 'rich mans' leaders magazine: Listen you rich, successful jerks, I am going to sow a seed of doubt in order to interest you in my foundation. In fact nab you. Look at me, are you as successful as I am? Are you as rich? Well, if not, check me out! I might have something you want. No, you can't buy it you ninny, no checks involved until later. But if you get my self knowledge it will only enhance your ability to be even more successful and we all know that means wealth! Hence the article in this magazine. And I too will be more wealthy, I mean successful. Buy now, pay dearly later. Ralwat is trolling for dollars. The Leaders article is like a paid advertisement. It's laughable. Tonette

Subject: A paid advertisement From: Disculta To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:11:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I noticed from these alleged words of our ex-Lord is that they contain too many full sentences, in too much of a seemingly logical progression to be a real verbatim quote by MJ. Seems to me like someone wrote this answer.

Subject: It was surely edited, no doubt. From: Tonette To: Disculta Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:16:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh yes, spit, polish spin and filler. And he probably had to approve the final draft, the submission for the printable version in the magazine. The article, by no stretch of the imagination, was a live performance. I think it's basically his words, his content, but with lots of TLC. Tonette

Subject: TLC? LOL From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:28:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I think it's basically his words, his content, but with lots of TLC.'' Does that stand for ''Two-faced Lying Conman?''

Subject: Ahhhh hahahahaha! Good One! From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:38:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm too busy choking with laughter to type a reply! OMG! Love Tonette Okay how about TLC= Tow the Line Cultheads

Subject: That's interesting. From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:14:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat says, 'They don't move on to the next stage until they are convinced it's really for them.' In other words, 'You have to believe before you're shown the techniques.' Well, at least we agree on something. Anth the sedge warbler.

Subject: It's been a long time since I was a premie but... From: Disculta To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 16:48:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wasn't there a big, famous satsang in which he said stuff about you do not have to believe because I will show you God as a practical experience or words to that effect? Believing/seeing/believing/seeing

Subject: Knowing/Seeing/Believing... From: Cynthia To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 10:47:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Disculta, I don't remember any one satsang where he said that (I'm sure he did) but indeed that was the popular phrase I heard as an aspirant in 1975. 'You don't have to believe in anything, you will know it by seeing it and experiencing it through K. And there's the catch--being programmed to want Knowledge because it connects you to that ''knowing'' which includes knowing m is/was the LOTU. Which equals devotion. It was blantant satsang to aspirants during that period of time. I went through the 'aspirant program' and knew exactly what the Mahatmas wanted to hear. And I believed it too:)

Subject: Re: M 'describes' the process of reaching k From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:12:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alright, typical me, no nap, just a lot of yap, yap, yap (girl friend, clients, friends ...).... The first step is getting familiar with what I offer. Once again, like his answer to the preceding question ('How many premie women have you slept with?'), Maharaji SEEMS to be getting ready to answer responsively. This is, after all, the biggest 'process' one might ever undertake, I'd imagine, so we can expect him to describe the procedure with some sort of detail commensurate with the importance of this process. Okay, it starts with getting familiar.... This may involve coming to a presentation. Hm, this is a bit disingenuous. When was the last time it did NOT involve attending a cult meeting? Never, of course. Yet Maharaji's trying to seduce here and, as they say, all's fair in love (even abject, cult-level devotional love) and war. People listen to me and, if they're interested, they pursue their interest and listen to more of my lectures. Okay, Maharaji, I think we've got that part now. People listen to you. Then, they might listen some more. Never mind that you don't talk about what it is you tell them. The point is, they're listening. Still sounds like intro. Tell us: what is the PROCESS of REACHING SELF-KNOWLEDGE? They don't move on to the next stage until they are convinced it's really for them. The next stage? What's this 'next stage' stuff? All we've got so far is them listening to you. Well, I guess you're now about to TELL us what the next stage is, right? Great, can't wait! Pencil sharpened, ready to take notes: what is the PROCESS of REACHING SELF-KNOWLEDGE? Each person proceeds at his or her own pace. This can take a few weeks, several months or, in some cases, years. Proceeds? How? Why not just spell it out? What Maharaji means is 'proceeds to become slavishly devoted to me'. THAT's the process that could take weeks, months or possibly years. Maharaji certainly isn't describing any other, now is he? After they're sure they're interested I teach them some techniques that allow them to get in touch with the simplicity that's inside all of us. Well, I'd imagine that if people kept listening to who knows what you're telling them (because you still haven't described THAT for us yet), they most certainly have proven to be interested. You'd think a few sessions, tops, would prove that point. So who is it really that they have to impress with their certainty? Themselves or the guru's hand-picked pickers, Gurucharanand and what's-her-name? Anyway, having gotten down to the crunch, it looks like Maharaji's only description of the process to reach self-knowledge is this -- he teaches you some techniques. Nothing more, nothing less .. he ...teaches you ....some...techniques. And techniques to do what? To get in touch with the 'simplicity' ... but YOU CAN'T REALLY USE THAT WORD LIKE THAT! Didn't anyone ever tell him that simplicity isn't that kind of noun. Sure, there might be something inside and it might be simple but to call it 'simplicity' ... sorry, fella, that's not proper English. And what's wrong about it is NOT insignificant. Maharaji's using 'simplicity' here to avoid saying what it actually is he claims these techniques will supposedly put one in touch with? Now why is that, I wonder? Must have something to do with watching his competitors to make sure his message is always 'unique' I guess. It's really a question of presenting the possibilities to people. What the hell is he talking about now? Sounds like packing material. If you focus within you can start up the ladder of success from the right place, rather than just reaching for the outside trappings of success. Again, relevance? The question was: Can you describe the process of reaching self-knowledge? This is just veering off into who knows where. Why'd he do this interview at all if he wasn't interested in communicating? Of course I'm not dismissing that kind of achievement. It's extraordinary what some people have accomplished in this world. But success really begins within you. What a shameless effor to kiss the asses of the rich and powerful. If I were a premie, I'd be embarrassed. No, really, I think I would.

Subject: I've got a confession, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 03:36:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first encountered you, I thought you were way too literal. Now....well, that was hilarious. Poor bugger - he's winging it and not doing too badly considering that he still has premies like Catweasel, Roupell, Carlos etc in thrall all oohing and aahing over the Leaders article. (''It's Prem - in Time magazine well not Time but almost like Time a big business mag!!!'') Well, on second thoughts....they're all he's got. He may have golden shit-houses but he's got lousy friends. I guess he got what he deserved. His chickens are about to hatch and I'm wondering how many eggs he wishes he had never fertilised. Now watch the REALLY literal-minded trolls misinterpet that! :C)

Subject: it's funny... From: an observer To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:32:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that in all the years past, M has always given me the impression that material acheivements should be dismissed, (so we could serve him and focus on K).... somehow, the story changes depending on the audience..

Subject: Yep he's suck dry his current reservoir From: Tonette To: an observer Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:11:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My take is that his current audience is aging and he's maxed out the money he can extract from them. In fact, his cash flow has dwindled. So, pride and morals aside, let's go trolling for dollars. He's not going to waste his time on small fry, he's going for people who do have real wealth. If he can nab but one unsuspecting soul well, hell, not bad for one small interview. Now that I can see from a 'clear' vantage point his tactics are so very transparent. I wonder if Maharaji realizes, I wonder if anyone around him has to balls to tell him, his interview portrays him as a cheap, ignorant, guru wanna be. He'll never make it with this class of people. They're successful because they are exactly the type of people who are suspecting, discerning and most likely to not give a damn about God and Spirituality or Self Knowledge. They know themselves, are confident and assurred. They smell him a mile away! What a fool he's become. Are premies gushing or are they blushing embarrassed? Tonette

Subject: And charging for Leaders reprints... From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:57:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pretty declasse. I just looked at his reprint page and it's hilarious. It has three items that are all the same. Oh my gawd--wait--I had to recheck it: 1 reprint for $5.00 3 reprints for $15.00 10 reprints for $50.00 And you can add it to your wish list! Just like Sears. Great quantity discount, Prem. Cheesy, cheap, yeah he's got a lot of class. Jeeze, who besides premies are gonna buy these? Great post above, Tonette, btw...

Subject: Re: Yep he suck's alright From: Marshall To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 12:35:15 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Tonette, When you say 'What a fool he's become'. I have to wonder, at what point do you feel Ratwit hasn't been a fool?(haha) Is Ratwits current trolling for dumb Leader's reader's any more foolish than the peace bomb satsang that he gave, the one that Jim always posts? Or the krishna regalia he danced around in? What a dork! By the way this is a rhetorical question.

Subject: Re: Self Knowledge From: AV To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 12:27:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The knowledge of all knowledges,Raj Yoga, the Holy Name of God; the primordial vibration which is ever existent, cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed, water cannot wet it, fire cannot burn it; self effulgent light, brighter than a thousand suns, the inexhaustable well of divine nectar from which one drop will be divinely intoxicating.. the music of the spheres, the indwelling universe, abode of the infinite Lord, creator preserver and destroyer.....

Subject: Re: Self Knowledge From: PatD To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 16:19:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah yes,those seductive words,they're passe now. The divine whore is getting on a bit. No longer can he tout for trade among the young & impressionable,but is reduced to trawling in the realms of the toaster salesmen. But yes, the ashes of the heady words of 1st love leave a bitter taste. Fuck him.

Subject: Life From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:19:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night my little grandaughter went into a seizure induced by a 104 degree fever. I held onto her little body, wracking with convulsions until she went blue and stopped breathing. I thought she had died. It seemed like forever until the paramedics, ambulance, fire truck, three squad cars and an unmarked unit arrived. She very gently started breathing again, so gently I couldn't even tell. In her blank state she began to stare at the miriad of strangers working over her. At that point, we didn't know if she was going to make it, brain damaged or not. It was a very long night of every conceivable, tortuous test to rule out spinal menengitis, etc etc etc. This little baby was poked, pricked, stabbed, x-rayed, glued to monitors and scared beyond belief as strangers twisted her into a pretzle for a spinal tap. At the end of it all, it came down to an ear infection and possible beginning of a pneumonia. They kept telling us that febrile seizures are 'normal' in children and she wouldn't have any effects from it, and might possibly or possibly not, suffer another in the future. This child had only previously suffered a minor cold. She had never been on an antibiotic, tylenal or any other medication. During all this, I kept asking myself, 'Who do I pray to? Who do I ask for help for this child?' When my mother died a little over a month ago, I was alone with her. She had quite literally pulled me home with an undeniable force. It was heart wrenching, but beautiful. Last night, when I thought my grandbaby had died, it was heart wrenching and not beautiful. As we all stood in the kitchen, calling her name, pleading for her to regain consciousness and knowing there was absolutely nothing we could do, it was utter helplessness. All I could think to do during those long hours of tests and waiting was to wish I had a lap top to log onto F7, and ask for all your good wishes, prayers, or whatever we call it these days, sent to this baby. Today, we have our little baby running around, albeit a bit peakish, doing all the typical, delightful, mischievious, exhausting things babies do. It's a miraculous sight. Ordinary human life is not ordinary. It is everything. Appreciating life, real life, is the gift. Appreciating another human being, foibles and all, is the gift. We aren't here that long, even if we live to be a hundred years old, it's never long enough. Love lives forever. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. To not take it for granted would be the wisest accomplishment, to appreciate the ordinary the most intelligent. There is nothing too ordinary or too mundane to be trivially dismissed as insignificant or unimportant. Humans matter, no matter what, we do. Just as we are.

Subject: Re: Life From: Marianne To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 22:20:16 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Vicki: Your story was really gut wrenching, Vicki. I cannot imagine how frightening it must have been to hold her and watch her as her life appeared to be in the balance. Death teaches us what is most important, and why. It taught me to appreciate the people I love, and to be fearless in telling those people how I feel. As you can see from this thread, we were with you in spirit that night, and we share your joy over the recovery of your little grandchild. She is as lucky to have you in her life as you are to have her. Your posts are insightful and moving. I am glad you foung your way here. Marianne

Subject: Re: Life From: Anandaji To: Vicki Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 01:03:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wonderful story, Vicki. First, I am happy your grandaughter is ok. Second, that is a good question: To whom do we pray? It is interesting that you thought about F7. I am coming to believe that the closest we may get to 'God' on this plane is in feeling and honoring the connectedness of those with whom we have a strong affinity. In this case, your grandaughter and also your brothers and sisters on F7. Anandaji

Subject: Very touching post From: Jerry To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:50:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So much more is said in your concern for your granddaughter that touches the heart than any pablum Rawat has ever spoke. He would probably say that it's not of real concern, just part of the maya (or some such), nothing to get excited about. I remember him telling a story of when his mother died. He was asked if he felt any sorrow or pain over her loss. His reply? 'Hey, we're all on the same line.' What a very human thing to say, eh? Not. I'm glad your granddaughter is up and about again. Hopefully, that's the last time you'll ever have to deal with something like that.

Subject: Yes we are humans not devotees From: Tonette To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:56:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our lives and intellect expands far beyond what can be fulfilled by the servitude, belief, devotion that comprises Maharaji's world. Even the retarded, handicapped by IQ, can discern that something is just a bit off in Ralwat's world of knowledge. Even these intellectually challenged humans can smell the cheap ignorant fraud that Ralwat, M, Prem, ect is. The fact is we need each other. Humans are meant to be together. We are such social beings. Yes capable of some awful things, lies, murder, rape ect. We are so very individual and unique. Each and every one of us. We are separate and yet we yearn for each other. Able to survive on our own but that is not we seek; aloneness. We are stong, dynamic and so very aware of and attentive to our individual feelings. No, we are not insignificant. And we have much power, ingenuity, energy and drive. Ralwat, although a fraud and a con, does not even have the influence of a small pimple on a teenagers chin, the night of the senior prom when one looks at his message, influence or wealth. Ralwat is more like the buzzing of a housefly, caught on flypaper, struggling and annoying. Gad that noise is annoying. When is the fly going to die already? I'm trying to listen to some music here and I'm sick of looking of this green tinged hairy fly that I know has crawled in shit. Gross. Yuck. Hope it didn't crawl on me! And, you need to get a new thernometer. Seizures from fevers only happen from 105.5 or higher. Never treat a fever under 101.5. Always treat a fever above 103. Treat aggressively at 105. I'm so glad she's okay. Scary wasn't it? Kids they get sick so quick and get better almost as fast. Amazing what they go thru. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: Yes we are humans not devotees From: Vicki To: Tonette Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 22:59:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Tonette. The 104 was at the hospital. They guess-timated it had been 105, maybe higher. The problem now is, they were so brutal with her that she is in a lot of pain. Don't know if it is the spinal tap site or something else. Another trip to the ER was inconclusive. They haven't done an ultra sound, which surprises me. It's very hard to see her not be able to squirm, and roll and walk like she did just a few short days ago. I can't get any answers out of anyone that knows anything. I really hate this.

Subject: Perhaps you should email Tonette, Vicki From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 04:55:13 (EDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: If you don't have each others' email and don't want to post it, you can use me as a go-between. Tonette is a nurse and a seriously sensible woman. It sounds like they hurt her with the spinal tap. Unfortunately some medical professionals are clumsy. Thank goodness not all. Most are careful.

Subject: Loving Life From: Richard To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:34:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, I am so sorry for what you have been through with the loss of your your mom and now a terrifying night with your grandaughter. A big hug for you Vicki. In the last few days, you and others have touched on the very essence of love, life and humanity. I am amazed and greatful that you and we feel the safety to share the greatest fears and realities that life has to offer. By facing our lives and ourselves head on, we stand a chance of becoming fully alive and awake. I have printed out the thread started by Anth that includes your wonderful tribute to your mom and given it to a premie friend who's mom is not well. I believe we are sharing words here that are healing for us and can be healing for others also. The words are universal and speak of what it means to be human. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: Loving Life From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 14:58:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello All, Each one of you has expressed so much love and support. Vicki, I also printed out your essay about your Mother. I'm also glad to hear your grandchild is all right. Tonette, another beautiful piece of writing and Richard as well. Thanks... Cynthia feeling cathartic

Subject: Re: Life From: Tim G To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:42:44 (EDT) Email Address: timgitti@indigo.ie Message: Dear Vicki What a rollercoaster ride for you. Totally present and real. Thanks for sharing it with us...it was moving and heartfelt. That sort of experience puts everything into perspective. Simple old human love is priceless and cannot be even approached by cult beliefs (unreality). The miracle is all around, at least Mr Rawat claims to understand that,and it has no name, technique, master, expert, explanation or philosophy. Now and then it comes on so strong that it hits us in the face. Thanks again for your story and I send you love and good wishes, Tim

Subject: 'Love and good wishes' From: Vicki To: Tim G Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:54:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Better than, sweeter and more powerful than any holi spray. Thank you so much. -V

Subject: Re: 'Love and good wishes' From: Jane To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 07:36:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm so glad that your grandchild recovered and will have a normal healthy childhood, what a sweet relief that must be! I note you compare holi spray to a very good feeling, which indicates to me that it was once (for you) a genuine and profound experience. If this Rawat guy is such a fake - how come?

Subject: Yes Jane. From: AJW To: Jane Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:19:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm so glad that your grandchild recovered and will have a normal healthy childhood, what a sweet relief that must be! I note you compare holi spray to a very good feeling, which indicates to me that it was once (for you) a genuine and profound experience. If this Rawat guy is such a fake - how come? --- Yes Jane, I don't anything about this really, but I agree, this Mr Rawat sounds like quite a nice person to me. And from what I hear, he offers his 'knowledge', (whatever that may be) completely free of charge and without obligation. What can be so bad about that? I hear there was a very favourable article on him in an important magazine too. Have you heard anything about that? Between you and me, I think the people here sound like a bunch of moaning minnies. After all, if they disagree with him, why don't they just get on with their lives and put it all behind them? I think I might investigate this Mr Rawat a bit further. Are there any websites or anything I can look at? Anthony S. Impleton (England)

Subject: Jane. From: AJW To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, May 11, 2002 at 10:02:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jane, I am very sarcastic to you in my above post. This is because, when I read your message, I thought you were a premie, pretending to be a an innocent bystander. (This occasionally happens here.) I think I was influenced by the troll warning. Anyway, I think I misinterpreted what you said, because it also reads like a genuine question from a premie. So I apologise for my sarcasm, which wasn't deserved. Anth, '95% of everything I say is bullshit anyway.'

Subject: Don't feed the troll From: Please To: Jane Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:07:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sorry Please (nt) From: AJW To: Please Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:20:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: couldn't resist

Subject: It's those Jehovah's Witnesses again. [nt] From: PatC - you get the door, dear To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 03:54:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: 'Love and good wishes' From: Nigel To: Jane Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 09:20:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well this isn't really the thread for discussing Mr Rawat's so-called 'powers' but - briefly - 'a genuine and profound experience' in Holi doesn't require the guy behind the water-cannon to have anything more special than regular guru-status in the minds of his followers. Projection, imagination, conditioned-emotions and placebo effect can all easily account for the rest. As can the more mundane explanation that the devotee often falls 'in love' with the guru - just as people will fall in love with any number of racketeers, abusers and confidence trickers. Happy to discuss this with you on a new thread if you like, Jane. Meanwhile, very best wishes to Vicki - I wouldn't wish an experience like that on my worst enemy, and so glad things seem to have turned out ok. Nige

Subject: Re: 'Love and good wishes' From: Vicki To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 23:00:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Nigel, on both counts.

Subject: Thanks Nige From: Jane To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 22:18:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, this is not an appropriate place to discuss this. However, I don't feel that continuing the debate anywhere else will achieve anything more. You have answered my question by clearly explaing the 'high' we used to get from being sprayed with very cold water at a high pressure rate. In fact I feel your diagnosis of the experience should be permanantly imortalised in the pages of EPO for other confused seekers to learn from. Don't worry about the 'troll haters', they are just stiff scared to admit or acknowledge they ever felt anything at all. It confuses them you see.

Subject: 'Debate' - what debate? From: Nigel To: Jane Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 04:54:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, this is not an appropriate place to discuss this. However, I don't feel that continuing the debate anywhere else will achieve anything more. You have answered my question by clearly explaing the 'high' we used to get from being sprayed with very cold water at a high pressure rate. In fact I feel your diagnosis of the experience should be permanantly imortalised in the pages of EPO for other confused seekers to learn from. Don't worry about the 'troll haters', they are just stiff scared to admit or acknowledge they ever felt anything at all. It confuses them you see. --- Who refuses to admit they ever felt anything? What a daft comment in present context. Who is confused, exactly? (I think Gerry, Jerry and maybe one or two others have said they never really got off on Rawat-Self-Knowledge, but I don't see them on this thread.) It is more common to find exes saying they had/have an experience but discovered Rawat and the devotional Bhatkti trip to be redundant to that experience. Others - like me - have dropped the 'spiritual' pretence altogether and since found that breath-watching and the other techiniques are pretty universal 'teachings', ie. relaxation methods given out by self-appointed masters everywhere. Have you read about David Lane's 'inner-light' experiments? By 'troll-haters', do you mean exes who hate pwks who engage here without a shred of self-respect? People who pick an alias from the air then use it both as a shield and a weapon? People afraid to discuss what really might be going on both inside their own nervous systems, belief systems or cult? Posters who instead engage in a disingenuous, disruptive manner? If so, I hate that too.

Subject: no thanks Nige From: Jane To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 11:38:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are right, no debate. Just your uptight sermon. Man you are one self important, righteous fellow! But way too many questions mr wanna know. Ever use your heart instead of your brain? But breath watching, that's the ticket eh! Yea, love watching my man's breath after a good one, especially in the winter. I watch it puff out in great clouds and evaporate in the cold air. Breath watching? Nigel, you're on the ball mon, in tha club.. Ooh yea. Wicked, Massive.

Subject: Re: no thanks Nige From: Nige To: Jane Date Posted: Sun, May 12, 2002 at 20:34:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Above thread post dedicated to you, you sad tosser. What a fucking twat. Do you mean 'heart' as blood pump or metaphor? Either way, neither is a brain substitute, I have noticed.

Subject: Re: 'Debate' - what debate? From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:32:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a treat to read you, Nige. On the nose!

Subject: Thanks, Vicki and well said, Nige [nt] From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 14:55:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ta, Pat - how's it all hanging? [nt] From: Nige To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 19:01:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: hanging nicely, Nige, thanks From: PatC To: Nige Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 19:24:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I sure miss having you and Moley to talk to here. However I do realise that you have a full life beyond this. I will also have to curtail my posting soon as I will be very busy (I hope) this summer unlike last summer. Love to Moley.

Subject: Loose trousers obviously From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 18:15:33 (EDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Hello Pat! Love to you too. Check out my easier Email address (other one still works too). Spend so much time off-line in country love-shack, but still here reading every week. Yakteryer by email very sooon. ('OK', I hear you say, 'promises, promises'! xxx

Subject: Loose trousers sink hips From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 19:14:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And loose lips....oops - wrong forum. I'll have to go into lurking mode soon as posting really takes a lot of time. I don't expect email - I know you're terribly busy. :P

Subject: Re: Loose trousers sink hips From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 07:55:57 (EDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Yes -wrong forum! And yes - I've been lurking over ma man's shoulder. Have to wait until he's in bed to get the laptop to meself.... ah, but then there are better things to do ;)

Subject: what is this place here anyway? From: dracula To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 04:09:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: who's drinking blood? has your guru any idea of what you are doing on this site? what if he is my grandpa and comes at nite to drink your blood? you wake up and don't know a thing and next thing you know you are an expremie....scary...

Subject: Is Prem really your Grandpa? From: Jerry To: dracula Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:55:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is scary.... oooooooooo!

Subject: Re: what is this place here anyway? From: JHB To: dracula Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 04:30:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dracula, Why is it scary for former members of a cult to talk about it? Are you scared because you're still in the cult and believe something terrible will happen to you if you leave? If so, don't worry. Leaving is the best thing that happened to me. It brings freedom, and an increased capacity to feel joy and love. BTW, our former guru knows all about this forum and the EPO site. In fact whenever he thinks about it, he needs a large cognac! John.

Subject: it really is a lila From: what if To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 16:10:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: maybe a true master can drink cognac if he wants to.maybe you've blown it and are wasting life and breath.no one nows everything.

Subject: Re: it really is a lila From: Mirror To: what if Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:37:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: maybe a true master can drink cognac if he wants to.maybe you've blown it and are wasting life and breath.no one nows everything. --- At least he doesn't need to waste his precious alcohol-breath on me anymore. That means more for you to enjoy! Ignorance is bliss!! Lee-la-lee-la-tra-la-la. Mirror

Subject: No problem From: JHB To: what if Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 18:22:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If the Perfect Master can drink cognac, then I can also run a website denouncing him. It's all part of the magical game of the Master of Love. Hey, maybe I'll get to go to heaven like Ravana! John.

Subject: What if From: PatD To: what if Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 17:03:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...the notion that the founding principle of the universe is capricious, means that anything anyone says,including anything said by your own good self,is just a joke? I'm not sure where I stand on the god question,but what if the master wants to drink himself to death? The sooner he gets on with it the better in my view. His game has just begun.....what's yours? or is that too complicated for you to understand. I intend to keep on blowing it : there's a lila for you.

Subject: Maharaji 'describes' Self-Knowledge From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 20:51:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Leaders Magazine article excerpt we already had ended with the question: 'How do you define self-knowledge, and how is it different from other forms of introspection?' This is a very specific, two-part question. Here's his answer: The self-knowledge I am talking about is fundamental to one's being. It is the core of who you are. It is not about changing behaviour. Rather, it is about feeling more centered within yourself. It is much more fundamental than people might think. I make a big distinction between the person and everything else. I tell people: 'You have been given the gift of life. You have been given a treasure within you. Why don't you address what is most fundamental to you?' That's where the self-knowledge I am speaking about is very different. I am confident it's not going to get lost because it's unique. Of course it is vitally important it doesn't get lost because other people use similar words. I will continue to adapt my message to reach people, but essentially the message will remain unique. Okay, let's look at this. I say that, true to the evasive standard of the rest of the interview, his answer is really anything but: The self-knowledge I am talking about is fundamental to one's being. Okay, that's an introductory statement. Reading this, I expect the speaker to be warming up to describe this thing that's so important, that's so 'fundamental' to my being. Great, after a couple of pages of nothingness, we can finally expect some explanation of this amazing product. And why not? After all the interviewer did ask for a definition. What could be clearer than that? So let's see where this goes. We're finally going to learn what self-knowledge is. It is the core of who you are. Is this a bad joke or something? Self-knowledge is the core of who I am? Look, we already know by definition that the self is the self. The SELF, then, is the core of who I am (if, of course, you even buy into this rather simple notion of an indivisible self but that's a different issue altogther). So this is really no more than saying that the knowledge of the self is the self , um, itself. :) What the hell...??! Okay, give the guy a break. Maybe this too is just a bit of a poorly or loosely worded intro. Let's see if he doesn't maybe get down and actually answer the question. It is not about changing behaviour. This is a bad language trend I noticed a while ago. It's prevelant in, although not exclusive to, new age/ lefty/ politico circles but the idiom spreads further still. What I hate about it is the fact that it throws a blanket of obscurity over a topic. What exactly does 'about' even mean here? Obviously, it has something to do with relatedness but it's vague as all get out. I also hate the way the idiom assumes that, if you can figure out what something's 'about' you'll only find one thing. In other words, it's not possible for something to be 'about' more than one. Who says? Anyway, perhaps more to the point, notice how Maharaji has now abandoned any attempt to answer the question. He's not defining self-knowledge, he's merely talking about its effect. That wasn't the question though, now was it? Rather, it is about feeling more centered within yourself. See? All effect and no description of the actual process. Again, guru, WHAT IS SELF-KNOWLEDGE? Or don't you know? It is much more fundamental than people might think. Well I don't know what people might think but I do know that you've told us nothing. Nothing at all. I make a big distinction between the person and everything else. What the HELL does that mean? And have we now completely given up 'defining' this most wonderful self-knowledge? Sure looks that way. I tell people: 'You have been given the gift of life. You have been given a treasure within you. Why don't you address what is most fundamental to you?' Oh, I see. Instead of defining self-knowledge he's back on his appreciation rant. Hm, how enlightening. That's where the self-knowledge I am speaking about is very different. Now what does THIS have to do with the last thing he was talking about, namely, people addressing what's most fundamental, etc.? And what's his point? Why does he say 'That's where ...' as if he's making some sort of an argument when he's not? I am confident it's not going to get lost because it's unique. Of course it is vitally important it doesn't get lost because other people use similar words. I will continue to adapt my message to reach people, but essentially the message will remain unique. Alrgiht, this is the end of the 'answer' and, as we now see, Maharaji's not the least bit inclinced to answer nothing. But the real fun thing here is what he is inclined to do and that is to try to somehow distinguish his own empty banalities from those of every other empty banality dispenser! But what the hell is this anyway? How does Maharaji know that his outrageously vague 'self-knowledge' actually is any different than whatever's offered by any of those other guys? Why does he assume so? I mean, if it's within and all that, wouldn't one think just the opposite, that if the words seem pretty much the same the 'self-knowledge' is too? But, for some reason, Maharaji's confident it isn't. Hm............. Oh, any by the way, he didn't even begin to answer the second part of the question!

Subject: The 'gift' of life From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 12:05:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'You have been given the gift of life. You have been given a treasure within you. Why don't you address what is most fundamental to you?' This is a very BIG assumption that Maharaji is making, this 'gift' of life, and that he's expecting people to agree with him about. I mean, hasn't this guy ever read The Blind Watchmaker? You'd think with all the recommendations on this site he'd have read it by now and thought twice about this presumption that life is a 'gift'. You've got to talk to this guy, Jim, or maybe send him your copy if he hasn't picked up his own yet.

Subject: Correction From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 21:05:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, on second thought, Maharaji did kind of answer the second part of the question -- if you can call all this: It is much more fundamental than people might think. I make a big distinction between the person and everything else. I tell people: 'You have been given the gift of life. You have been given a treasure within you. Why don't you address what is most fundamental to you?' That's where the self-knowledge I am speaking about is very different. I am confident it's not going to get lost because it's unique. Of course it is vitally important it doesn't get lost because other people use similar words. I will continue to adapt my message to reach people, but essentially the message will remain unique. an answer to: ... how is it different from other forms of introspection? which, of course, it isn't.

Subject: You don't get it Jim. From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 18:06:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, You misunderstand Captain Rawats' message. It can't be put into words. You have to experience it for yourself. Experience poking yourself in the eye and seeing pretty patterns. Experience sticking your thumbs in your ears and listening to the perfect harmony when wax tumbles over the sound of blood rushing through your eardrums. Experience inner snot. Experience your lungs within. Experience putting your moral values, common sense, pride, ambition, and purpose in life to one side, in exchange for becoming an undiscriminating devotee. Experience believing Captain Rawat has come with more power than Krishna, and other mythological characters. Experience handing over your money to keep the Captain in the style to which he has become accustomed. You have to feel it in your heart Jim. Then you understand. Anth the optical illusion. PS. I was really disappointed with the ending to 'Memoirs of a Geisha.'

Subject: Isn't this part hilarious though? From: Jim To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 18:35:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This part here just cracks me up: That's where the self-knowledge I am speaking about is very different. I am confident it's not going to get lost because it's unique. Of course it is vitally important it doesn't get lost because other people use similar words. I will continue to adapt my message to reach people, but essentially the message will remain unique. So if someone says the same thing he says -- nothing, really. Just a lot of the lowest, common-denominated empty spiritual slogans and homilies -- he'll CHANGE his pitch to keep it 'unique'? Sounds like a secret sales memo for a multi-level marketing company. Sizzle, sizzle and more sizzle! And if the other guy copies your sizzle, change it! ************** I was disappointed with the end too. Last time you'll ever catch me reading a book, I tell ya'.

Subject: He's right Jim. From: AJW To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 18:49:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But Jim, when he says it's important Knowledge doesn't get lost, he's right. When I was a premie, I left mine on a bus once. It took me two weeks to get it back. I didn't know what to do without it. I'd poke myself in the eye- no patterns. Stick my tongue back- no snot, just wet skin (not so bad actually), Stick my thumbs in my ears- complete silence (well, next doors TV) Boy was I glad when I got that phone call from London Transport, 'You the bloke who left the eternal knowledge of the inner self on the 74 bus mate? Yeah, well come up here to the Lost property office in Hendon and collect it. It's frightening our cat.' Anth the lost properly. PS again. Have you read 'Poisonwood Bible' yet? Now that's a good book. Maybe it's time you had another holiday and doubled your literary input for the Millenium.

Subject: LOL!!! Anth you are very funny... [nt] From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 17:42:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Forum Premies, here's your chance From: Will To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:48:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Premies, You who post on this forum have attempted to defend Prem Rawat in various ways. Unfortunately, you have not as yet tried the option of making sense. The best kind of statement of support would be one that quiets any opposition by its own strength and obvious truth that we all couldn't help but acknowledge. For instance, if I were to defend Prem Rawat, I would say that he is focused and energetic. Ex-premies could deny that, but their denials would seem nothing more than stubborn negativity. So here's an excellent question put to Prem Rawat himself. 'What do you mean by Self-Knowledge and how does it differ from other forms of introspection?' Here's your chance premies. The second part of the question. How does Knowledge differ from other forms of introspection. Prem Rawat himself asserts here quite adamantly that his brand of Self-Knowledge is entirely unique. He doesn't answer the question HOW it is different and unique, though. So the question does remain, is it unique as Rawat says and if so, how so? Any takers? Do you think Prem Rawat answered as well as possible? Do you claim that it is all ineffable, so there's no point in formulating any kind of real answer? Do you have any answer from your own experience of Self-Knowledge and other forms of introspection? I think I can safely state the ex-premie point of view, which seems rather obvious: premies who follow Prem Rawat do NOT engage in any sort of introspection that is different or unique. In fact, their form of meditation is quite similar to other ways of meditating and the results that premies get from their introspection is also quite the same as other people's experiences. And in fact, there are many people in the world who practice the very same techniques under a different teacher. Mr. Rawat's claims to some sort of unique message is a complete lie which has the sole purpose of perpetuating his own personality cult. If he were interested in presenting the whole truth about the matter, he would have given an entirely different response than the one he gave. For those of you who listen to Maharaj's message, I wonder if you ever really listen? Can't you recognize the fundamental, the very fundamental, misstatements that he makes, all with a perfectly transparant motive? I look forward to your worthy, thoughtful, persuasive response. Thank you. (p.s. please refrain from your typical statements of blind worship and/or personal insults).

Subject: Sheeesh! Is it any wonder... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 22:10:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... you don't 'Get it?' Your always so TECHNICAL about words, it's allways words words words with you, isn't it? Every thoroughly modern PWK knows that the WORDS aren't important, it's the FEELING. How can you get into the feeling if you are always asking QUESTIONS!? You are just so un-cool and un-withit. I'm sorry to sound so cruel, and I AM generally nice, but even I have my limits. Your such a LAWYER, Mr. Heller, you are always trying to make the Master's words sound like senseless babbling. But really, it's so simple, let me try to explain. Prem says: The self-knowledge I am talking about is fundamental to one's being. Duuh. A no-brainer. Next. It is the core of who you are. This is VERY important. You see, people have so many concepts, they are always thinking it's something else. By saying this, it sounds simple, AND important, and profound, too. Who DOESN'T care about the Core of What They Are? People who are 'like' dead people, perhaps, but NOT Students of Prem, or Aspirants. Remember, this is who He is saying this for, not naughty ex-students who just want to ask questions. It is not about changing behaviour. Again, it's a common technique of Prem to explain Self Knowlege by telling us what it is NOT. People have so many concepts, they think this is all about Indian Stuff or like EST or something, and those concepts have to be gotten rid of, because they lead to people asking questions, and the Master just HATES that, He doesn't want any of THOSE. Rather, it is about feeling more centered within yourself. There, doesn't that sound NICE? Doesn't that sound appealing? And it's all about FEELING. You need to let go of those horrible QUESTIONS and stop thinking, Jim, and just start feeling. It's all warm, fuzzy and soft, if you would just LET it be! I tell people: 'You have been given the gift of life. You have been given a treasure within you. Why don't you address what is most fundamental to you?' Prem is very gentley, and very politely, reminding us here that we are idiots, always forgetting to be grateful, and we need to be grateful to Him, because no one else will remind us that life is precious, even if they do say things that sound just like that. And don't you always forget to address what is fundamental to you? Your Life, Prem, and Knowledge? They are all One you know, and who else is going to remind you of that? He knows we are always forgetting that, and that we need The Master so we can just SHUT UP and LISTEN. Isn't the Kindness incredible? He's such a Dear! That's where the self-knowledge I am speaking about is very different. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. The Self Knowledge He is speaking of must not be confused with any other kind of Self Knowledge, otherwise, you might become confused about who you should send your checks to when you are ready to show your appreciation and gratitude, by helping Prem in His Work. I mean, Knowledge is not for sale, of course, but if you ARE grateful, and you DO feel something, you WILL want to show your gratitude and support His work, won't you? I am confident it's not going to get lost because it's unique. Of course it is vitally important it doesn't get lost because other people use similar words. I will continue to adapt my message to reach people, but essentially the message will remain unique. Again, it's important that His Self Knowledge doesn't get confused with other people who say the same or similar things. You don't want your checks to get lost, or sent to some fake teachers like the Dolly Lama or Mother Teareza by mistake, or even worse, some horrible religion or CULT. YUCK! Who'd want to get involved with one of THOSE? And Prem has always been so good at adapting His message, He even understands the universal popularity of bathroom humor. If only those selfish churchladies at Visions International can be forced to stop editing out His unique and special fart jokes! It's all very simple, Jimmy dear, if you would just Listen to your Heart... not your Brain Farts! Andrea Eriksonn :) Who knows it all makes sense when you don't filter out the good.

Subject: Come on now Andrea From: AJW To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 18:13:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea, Are you really trying to tell us that those who worship their Master, the Rev Moon, and those who chant Hare Krishna, and those thousands of other people who worship their Masters as incarnations of perfection are all deluded and in cults. But you, as a Rawat worshipper, are not in a cult? Please tell me your definition of a cult. I'm interested. Anth, definitely not in a cult any more.

Subject: That sounds dangerously like... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 04:21:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... a QUESTION. The Master doesn't like to answer those, and I'm not at all sure I should be either, but your question is so EASY, I think I'm going to try, I hope it's not some horrible trick question, you ex-students can be SO naughty. Those other people you mention, the deluded ones, they are in cults, because their leaders aren't You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What. They are FAKES. And they all have that hallmark that so many cults have... they're BORING. Prem, and His World of Knowledge, in contrast, is FUN FUN FUN. In Amaroo recently, we got You-Know-What from You-Know-Who, and got to listen to Answers without even needing, or having the oportunity, to ask questions. And those of us who were so inclined, got to smoke like chimnies and drink like fish too, and not Koolaid, either. It was the "Club Prem" vacation, I tell you. Truely, it was DIVINE. Not dull as dishwater like some boring dead jesus, or those dreary Hairy Krishna people who bother you at airports and shopping malls. And lets face it, when's the last time anyone ever heard Reverend Moon tell a good fart joke?. Prem is just so REAL, as well as FUN. As for definition of a cult, I'm afraid I can't tell you much about those, as I've never actually been in one. Did you ever see my website, "Please Consider This... not THAT"? I made it to discredit... I mean, to address some of the questions raised by ex-students. But I had to take it down, because you ex-students wouldn't SHUT UP and LISTEN, you just asked more damn questions than ever. SHEESH! :| I'm working on a new web site, that I'm planning to make question-proof. B) Andrea Eriksonn :) Who isn't a cult apologist, because she's never been in a cult, so how could she possibly apologise for one?

Subject: Errrr....Andrea. From: AJW To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 06:53:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say in your answer to my question, you had'You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What'. Well sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. Let's assume Rawat is 'You-Know-Who,' what the hell is 'You-Know-What'? Please be more specific. Don't be shy. I'd hate it if you hid your light under a bushel. Anth, who doesn't know what.

Subject: What Anth doesn't appear to know From: JHB To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:55:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, Have you noticed the similarity between the names Erika Andersen, and Andrea Eriksonn? Do you think they may not be related? Erika is a premie who posted here and then helped set up the 'Pleaseconsiderthis' website. Andrea is ?????? John.

Subject: Re: What Anth doesn't appear to know From: WJA To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 19:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry John, It's all Greek to me. Ginth Ann

Subject: Er, John..... From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 17:53:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er, John...I think Anth's probably worked out that Andrea is Erika's alter ego. The question is, who is it???? The posts are staggeringly brilliant and the ISP details or whatever you call them don't belong to any of the regulars. I thought it might have been Anth or PatC but it can't be unless whoever it is uses a different computer. The mystery deepens.... Any ideas, anyone? Love, Liv

Subject: Not me but for $50 I'll tell you who. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 19:09:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ooh.....cheeky!! Think I'll keep guessing. [nt] From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 06:35:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Wait! I'll tell you for $40 [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 19:23:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Traitor! :P [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 20:22:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Okay, okay ...$45 [nt] From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 10, 2002 at 20:44:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Abi From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 16:08:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just wanted to say that I spoke with Abi on Saturday regarding her recent post. First, although some have questioned the authenticity of the post, that was indeed Abi. Second, Abi told me that, despite the reference to people possibly expoliting her story for their own agenda, however that would work, the fact is that she doesn't think anyone here has done this and she wanted me to clarify that. Actually, she said she might post something to that effect herself. But, in any event, I told her that I would post this much about our conversation because I thought that was an important point to clarify.

Subject: You're bunch of whining ingrates From: Mahaharaji To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 14:53:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You guys sure have got your tits in a tangle. Yes, it is true that if I say I am God, which I have been since I was 8, I would be locked up in some looney bin somewhere. So, what is a poor Creator to do? Everybody who practices Knowledge the way that I tell them how knows that I am God. The problem is that you have stopped practicing, progressing and participating and are not in synchronization. So, you are just completely in your minds and freaked out. If you would just believe me. How many times have I said ''Belief is Relief?'' So many times I can't count. All these bad things you say about me are lies. You did all of those things to yourself. I'm an easy-going kind of God and usually prefer to chill out with my hobbies like counting my watch collection and I don't usually micro-manage stuff. I leave that to anally-retentive church-ladies. If anything bad happened I didn't know about it. I'd go nuts if I had to take every fucking snot-nosed whimpering premie seriously. Geez, guys, give me a break. Okay, so I like stuff, expensive stuff and that costs a lot. I am not allowed to charge for Knowledge (bad karma) so how the fuck am I supposed to make money? As for criticizing my poetry - you should talk. I only went to school up till I was 13 and everything I know I have taught myself. The problem with you spoiled brats here is that you are mostly college educated and think that you know it all. HAH! Wait until you see what I'm going to do next. You're a bunch of fucking ingrates and whiners. I gave you everything and you throw it back in my face. If you had stuck with me like my close devotees you would also now be rich and you would be part of God and having fun. The problem is you think God has to be some snivelling grovelling wimp like Jesus. I should never have bothered with you christians. All you can think of is right and wrong and morals and other crap like that. Didn't I tell you when I first came that for Knowledge there is no right and wrong, good and bad, up or down? If you had been smart and listened to me you would know by now that I am beyond good and evil, and all that other crap that you get your knickers in knots about. Some of you seem to think that I have to obey stupid man-made rules and regulations like keeping only one set of books and recognizing the rights of free speech and democracy. Bullshit! That's for suckers. But you know I am a very kind and merciful God and you can always come back and do service cleaning out my golden toilet and that way you can once again become one with me and live in joy and bliss forever. I was just cleaning out an old file when I came across this old spoof that I posted last year sometime and thought I'd post it before deleting it. PatC

Subject: a stale TV show run out of ratings From: Patcie is like a To: Mahaharaji Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 00:18:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's to do? Bring out the re-runs! It's time to exit stage left Patcie - every *** has his day

Subject: Yeah, but you're still watching pal. (nt) From: AJW To: Patcie is like a Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 17:57:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's to do? Bring out the re-runs! It's time to exit stage left Patcie - every *** has his day ---

Subject: Rawat is a stale TV show run out of ratings From: PatC To: Patcie is like a Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 03:34:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did one re-run, Dr Cultweasel. Rawat's been talking the same old shit for 35 years.

Subject: Pranam, Balyogeshwar!!! From: Mahatma Coat To: Mahaharaji Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 15:14:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh my Guru Maharaji. You are so powerful and are such compassionate Lord of Yogis to put on scuba gear of Perfect Knowledge and lower yourself into this shark-infested Maya to try once again to save your silly devotees from their own mind-made suffering. I am terrified to even look your way but I must request one thing so humbly. Please Lord, do not hide yourself behind disguise of Western business man any longer. Your true devotees await the time when once again Sant Ji Maharaj wears crown of Krishna and dances away our ignorance. I spend each day praying that one day I will truly be dust at your Holy Lotus Feet. Then there wil be no more suffering and pain, suffering and pain, suffering and pain, no more suffering and pain with the downpour of the Holy Name. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!!! Pranam Balyogeshwar, I am less than dust. Your humble servant Mahatma Coat (aka Richard):)

Subject: Now, Mahatma Ji From: Bai Gosh Ji To: Mahatma Coat Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 15:38:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By golly, you know we are not meant to whine because our Balyouguesswhat got rid of all the Hindu trappings and fired all of us mahatmas in India in 2000 because we wore saris and shaved our heads. We must humbly prostrate ourselves at the feet which are not lotus anymore but Gucci and accept that our living master has thrown off his Krishna costume and put on a business suit. This is all so that he may reach the materialistic infidels in the west and is simply to save their rotting souls from the flames of maya. It is not because he can make more money as some of these rotting vegetables have suggested. Namaste! ShaktipatC

Subject: Re: You're bunch of whining ingrates From: Thorin To: Mahaharaji Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 15:03:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just cleaning out an old file when I came across this old spoof that I posted last year sometime and thought I'd post it before deleting it. I vote (this is a democracy no?) that you don't bin it - add to it, refine it and then publish - again and again. :) Thanks for the laff warmly, Thorin

Subject: Where is Jim when you need him From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 15:27:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Thorin, but I don't need to write spoofs when you can find them free on Enjoying Life with Knowledge. Jim, where are you? I can't do justice to this premie poetry the way you can. Stojan Svet: Inner meetings From Postojna, Slovenia A glimpse of your sight, is pulling me down to my heart, while I'm walking on breaths towards your direction, just to bounce my attention back, to your sweet understanding, where the words are not needed, only my feelings, feelings, feelings. Always these inner meetings, end in my sweet heart's receivings. David Sevitt: Inside Outside From Jerusalem, Israel sitting on the seashore,watching the waves coming towards me (it's too loud to meditate - i cannot hear the sound within me) the sun is too bright (how can i see the light within me when i close my eyes ?) i love this falafel(the tahina is preventing me from tasting the subtle nectar that is already inside of me) alone in my room at midnight everybody is sleeping soft and tender is this beautiful feeling of love I can melt into . i prefer to be inside my only sea where the sun forever shines the waves of my existence are subtle with a hunger to be fufiled by the food of Knowledge. dear master you are a real life guard. thank you Janice Wilson: eyes of the heart From Baldwinsville, New York eyes of the heart so truly, purely, sweetly you see this life you understand its true value with you it feels like a gift simple enjoyment, inside out who but you Maharaji can help me to see with these eyes again and again, everyday I need these eyes so badly I don't want to be alive feeling empty,lost,alone wallowing in doubt, pain, suffering when I know I am full of love and joy I feel so good, happy to be alive because I can see through the eyes of my heart I love this enlightened view so much I always want to see what you can show me When I am close to me , my heart I feel very close to you, Maharaji there is the true ,pure enjoyment I feel the bliss of this life sweet gratitude pours shy love abounds setting me free Eyes of the heart? The picture I got was of a thumping heart with stalky eyes like a crab's waving about in the ocean of bliss. Where is Jim when you need him to really appreciate and sing the praises of this premie poetry? But this piece of prose is what really caught my attention. It so movingly describes the profundity and gravitas and the real angst of imagining that one had lost a watch. Ivete Belfort Mattos: Tales from Amaroo From Sao Paolo, Brazil When I arrived it had been raining during the night. Sleeping in a tent alone, I woke up at very early - around 4.00am, I think - the following day. I looked for my watch. But to my surprise, I could not find it. I thought: ' OK! I've lost it, but forget it and start to practice.' Then, my mind started: ' How could you have lost it? Are you nuts to come camping with a non-waterproof watch? You received this watch when your second son was born and he knows it.' All the same I went on practicing... And then the birds started to sing and my mind returned: 'Well, you are going to New York after Amaroo. So, you can buy a watch there.' After solving this dilemma, I continued to 'practice', thinking: 'What time is it? More than one hour?' I never notice time when I practice, because I rely on my watch. So I just thought: 'Maybe you should forget it!' Birds were singing now singing louder than ever but I was determinted to continue to practice, while contemplating: 'I can go to the security and check if my watch there. 'But why should anyone care about my watch? This is an event. During events nobody is looking for watches.' All the while I keep on practicing... By now the birds had stopped singing and I heard footsteps outside my tent, so I decided that it was time to get up. And then, when I looked in my suitcase, my watch was there. It had been there all the time....!!! On this day of the event it was, for me, basically about focusing on the priorities of life and the essense of it. Enjoying Life with Knowledge www.enjoyinglife.org/

Subject: God is great but greater is tahini. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 21:04:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, According to David Sevett, 'the tahina is preventing me from tasting the subtle nectar that is already inside of me'. I suppose this means tahini is greater than god. Well, I can relate to that. Anth the sesame seed of doubt.

Subject: Hallucinations, Anth From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 03:48:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must have been a very bad premie because I always thought nectar was poetry for indescribable bliss. Now, if the sesame flavor of tahini is stronger than the ''subtle nectar'' then I guess I was wrong and nectar must be an actual physical substance that is not quite as strongly flavored as sesame. Maybe you're right and it was snot because snot definitely is not as strong tasting as sesame. I'm beginning to wonder if the reason I never tasted nectar was because I eat too many chilies, garlic and ginger. In fact there's this recipe for chai that I have been meaning to share....

Subject: Talking of chai recipes (ot) From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 06:57:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Talking of chai recipes, I've found a wonderful new ingredient to add to the chinny, dood, ginger and cardomen. After the chai has been taken off the heat, pour a generous glug of Baileys Irish Cream into each cup then go outside and watch the sunset. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the chai wallah.

Subject: Talking of chai recipes Part Two (ot) From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 06:57:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Is there an echo on this forum? Talking of chai recipes, I've found a wonderful new ingredient to add to the chinny, dood, ginger and cardomen. After the chai has been taken off the heat, pour a generous glug of Baileys Irish Cream into each cup then go outside and watch the sunset. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the chai wallah.

Subject: Bailey's Irish Creme Chai From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 12:54:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree. It's a great addition. You don't have to replace all of the milk with Baileys - just as much as you need. We're all fit as fiddles, Anth, thanks. I hope you are too. PS I see Andrea got your goat. Hint - look at her website again. :C)

Subject: Re: Bailey's Irish Creme Chai From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 19:28:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, Naaa, she didn't get my goat. I was trying to chat her up. Anyway, where's the website? Anth, who hasn't got a goat anyway.

Subject: Andrea's website From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 20:25:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's Andrea's website. For fifty bucks I'll tell you who she is. Please Consider This... not THAT www.geocities.com/listen2yerheart/pleaseconsiderthisnotthat.htm

Subject: Me-Unsynchronized? From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 08:00:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I'm offended by the site. It says we're 'whinning, negative, unsyncronized ' 'Whinning', ok, 'negative', maybe, but 'unsynchronized', that's really below the belt. Ah well, I suppose if it's all 'Maya' there's nothing to worry about is there? What a sad letter. We should put a link on EPO and give it as an example of cult brainrot. Anth, a speck of dust in maya etc.

Subject: You - Unsynchronized? From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 13, 2002 at 14:09:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, you are every unsynchronized. Methinks you still think Andrea is real. Well, as I said to Livia, I'll tell you who it is for fifty bucks. Doesn't she have the cult brain-rot down to a fine art?

Subject: OK Pat, 50 bucks. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 14:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No problem. Who is she in cyber-reality? Anth (of course there's a catch).

Subject: Not me From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, May 14, 2002 at 16:17:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But she's also a friend of your missus. :P

Subject: Speaking of Slovenia From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 02:41:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone from Slovenia tried to hack my computer the other day. I wonder if Stojan knows who it is? John.

Subject: Here're some more good ones From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 18:36:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My heart is longing Who ever got to Amaroo this time, I bet they had a ball! my heart is longing to be in the presence of the living master even from afar. Alice Barbosa Miami Beach, Fl, USA Yes, I, too, would like to be in his presence even if I can't actually be there. :) Speaking of which, Brazilian Amaroo After three days traveling, I am back to São Paulo, Brazil. During this period my kids got sick, my dad went to France, my brother is also traveling to Europe and my bank account was confused! But, I always stop and remember that Amaroo was for those who were there. I smile remembering that Amaroo was more than lovely indeed. It was illuminated by passion. In this point of clarity, I want to be ready for the next event. I am glad that this time, I will not be traveling alone. I hope that Brazilian aspirants ready to receive Knowledge will make it too. (If there is an auto-Knowledge session anywhere, as happened in Miami last year, it would be great for them to be there...) It is an endless cycle of happiness and joy for those who will be able to be in Amaroo again... And I definitely hope to be there... Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil Yes, Ivette, Amaroo was most definitely there for people who were there. Good point, sweetie. :) And here's one from, ahem, Shanti! : Thank you... Thank you, Maharaji, for introducing me to myself! If I did not have this Knowledge today, I know I would feel like a stray dog. Now I can try to appreciate and enjoy every moment. Shanti Joshi Marietta, Ga, USA She's right! Lots of people I know, people who don't have Self-Knowledge from The Prem Rawat Foundation do indeed feel like stray dogs. It's very common where I live. Don't know about other places but here it's, like, the talk of the town. As for insights gained, lesons learned .... Amaroo 2002 My conclusion after Amaroo is: 'Between fear and freedom, choose freedom.' Blanca Oraa Getxo-Bizkaik, Spain Yes! Meanwhile, Cecilia cleans house. Very effectively too, by the sound of it: Today Anger, fear, jealousy, envy and all things such as these are trivial and out of order, because love, truth, harmony, trust and all things such as these are very clear and ever present today. Cecilia De Trinidad Managua, Nicaragua AND she's got a good household tip!: Some advice Keep those lovely moments in the deepest part of your heart and protect this feeling in the same as a mom protects her newly born baby. Cecilia De Trinidad Managua, Nicaragua

Subject: How do you shake hands when you meet yourself? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 20:01:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alas, poor Ivette says:''....my bank account was confused!'' Yes, I really sympathise. I remember only too well how confused my bank account used to get when I was in the cult. It's not that it was in its mind or anything. It's just that it was always overdrawn after an ''event.'' Well, I'm cleaning house too. I started cleaning up my hard-drive as it's an old computer with only 6 gigs. I found this precious email from an old premie friend. It was his response to my leaving Rawat: The message will get through to you one day hopefully before you die. You will realize that you will always be grateful to M for giving you K. As he said --- Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Miami Beach, 8th May 1998 Wake up in the morning and say, ''Thank you. Thank you for this life, thank you for this moment, thank you for letting me be here.'' Don't you worry about who's listening. Because the one you are thanking is a lot closer to you than you think. That which you really want to thank - could it possibly be put in houses of stone? Not appropriate. Could it be put in houses of wood? Not appropriate. It can only be placed in that one house which will not burn, where no thief can enter, no bars are needed, no locks are needed, and that is your heart. You can whisper it and you will be heard, it doesn't have to be loud. You don't even have to move your lips, the message will get through. What I want to know is why bother to whisper to something which has no ears? It doesn't have ears does it?

Subject: Well, the last one's a miracle, I think From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 17:38:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tales from Amaroo Ivete Belfort Mattos From Sao Paolo, Brazil When I arrived it had been raining during the night. Sleeping in a tent alone, I woke up at very early - around 4.00am, I think - the following day. I looked for my watch. But to my surprise, I could not find it. I thought: ' OK! I've lost it, but forget it and start to practice.' Then, my mind started: ' How could you have lost it? Are you nuts to come camping with a non-waterproof watch? You received this watch when your second son was born and he knows it.' All the same I went on practicing... And then the birds started to sing and my mind returned: 'Well, you are going to New York after Amaroo. So, you can buy a watch there.' After solving this dilemma, I continued to 'practice', thinking: 'What time is it? More than one hour?' I never notice time when I practice, because I rely on my watch. So I just thought: 'Maybe you should forget it!' Birds were singing now singing louder than ever but I was determinted to continue to practice, while contemplating: 'I can go to the security and check if my watch there. 'But why should anyone care about my watch? This is an event. During events nobody is looking for watches.' All the while I keep on practicing... By now the birds had stopped singing and I heard footsteps outside my tent, so I decided that it was time to get up. And then, when I looked in my suitcase, my watch was there. It had been there all the time....!!! On this day of the event it was, for me, basically about focusing on the priorities of life and the essense of it. Okay, I'm not sure if this is a miracle exactly but it sure is a strong example of Grace. Ivette's the one that couldn't stop crying in ET, right? Hm, maybe she should get together with David Coleman from Vienna: Laughter David Coleman From Vienna, Austria Hi, my first thought was: 'Oh my God, it`s much too early in the morning to laugh so much that the tears just spring into the eyes and the belly hurts...' It`s like this, today, now.... and I`m really glad I can write this to you guys because I feel like a baloon about to pop. How did this happen? Well, it all started a few days ago, highlighted yesterday and emerged in the most wonderful of feelings just now....yesterday I was sending a friend in Hungary who is having a bit of a hard time some inspiring words from the tprf site and my daughter, 15, moaned and groaned at me because I was blocking the computer....and against all reason I just looked at a title in the selected excerpts box, clicked on it (without reading the excerpt) and after more moaning and groaning from my daughter, managed to fill in all my details and send the excerpt to my very very dear friend. Well my daughter is now at school and I thought: 'Use the time, compile something more appropriate for my friend, something which deals with her questions and doubts etc.,' and so I visit the tprf site, click all the right buttons and arrive at what I`d sent yesterday... God, it`s good to laugh...I may still be laughing while you read this....so wonderful is this feeling, so strong, so undescribable... Well, I read the excerpt....and there it is.....that magic I so easily forget, a very beautiful little passage about being human, about the finite and the infinite. As I close this I feel the questions begin....feel the hope rise...feel the love merge into humility and then as I feel the laughter mingle with gratitude I can raise my eyes, sparkling wet, to another day of.....life. David Oh I almost forgot....a bunch of artists share their work and inspiration at www.heartart.at.tf....maybe you`d like to check it out..... Can you imagine his teenage daughter's embarrassment if and when she ever brings friends home?

Subject: No, THAT'S a miracle From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 17:53:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David Coleman decides that his quotes from Rev Rawat that he wants to send to a friend who is ''having a hard time'' are not good enough. So, he goes back to TPRF and looks for a better quote only to find that he has dug up the exact same quote as before. That really is miraculous you know like just opening the Bible at random and finding that exactly appropriate quote that will help your mother through her kidney transplant.

Subject: Re: No, THAT'S a miracle From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 21:23:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once there was a person who got all his direction in life by opening the Bible at random and finding that appropriate quote. One day he rifled the pages, opened to a page, closed his eyes and placed his finger on a verse. It read 'and Judas went out and hung himself.' 'Well,' he thought, 'I don't think that is the message the Lord has for me today.' So he rifled the pages again, stopped at a page, closed his eyes and placed his finger on the page. He opened his eyes and read, 'go and do likewise.' Here Endeth the Lesson

Subject: And some people do the I Ching From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 23:14:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For years as a premie I threw those damn coins and interpretted uninterpretable rubbish as wisdom to live by. Well, it made as much sense as Rawat's blatherings to this dumb Hindu hippie. ''There will be no rain from the west.'' Well, that one, as you know, is fairly accurate for 6 months of every year in San Francisco. Any good quotes to cheer up my mom during her kidney transplant? :C)

Subject: The I Ching gave me satsang! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 23:38:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That damn book persuaded me to leave Gabriola Island, a small then-hippieish enclave in the gulf islands between the larger Vancouver Island and the mainland, and go to Vancouver to join the cult. When I asked what I should do about Maharaji, who I'd been thinking about on account of a couple of my good friends having joined the cult, the book said to 'cross the water and see the great man'. That's all it took for me.

Subject: Re: The I Ching gave me satsang! From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:39:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim! You!!! The I Ching!!!! Excuse me while I pick myself up from the floor.....ouch! Don't worry about it, I used to do it too, solemnly trying to work out what it could mean. Some people of our sort of age still read it. Worrying, huh? Livia X

Subject: Hey, I tried to email you! From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:58:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, I tried to email you but it bounced back for some reason. Any idea why? Got another address perhaps? Please email me again and I'll try to refix my reply to that message. Thanks, P.S. THEY DO?!?

Subject: Re: Hey, I tried to email you! From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 13:14:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, it's OK, I got your email - it came today. No problem with the email address and I have no idea why it did the bouncing back thing. No time to answer properly today but will definitely reply tomorrow. All the best to you, Liv

Subject: ''Cross the water and see the great man'' From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 23:55:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh god, me too. Aaargh! Only thing there was no water to cross so I figured it was the ocean of maya. :C) I was just telling Chuck and Andy while we were having dinner that I really was nuts when I joined the cult - desperate, depressed and very scared. Of course it only got worse after that but now I knew what my problem was - my mind. So I put that in a straight-jacket. :P

Subject: 'Cross the water' - Me too!!! From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:11:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1972 was a watershed year for me. Received K and got my cosmic ticket punched, a gorgeous, intelligent woman moved in with me, saw the lord at Montrose, woman goes to Bay Area 'for awhile' and doesn't return. I decided I would either go to SF and show up at her place or go to India on the Jumbo. I asked the I Ching and bada bing, I got 'Preponderance of the great' and 'It furthers one to cross the water'. This is just like so really and totally cosmicly karmical, man. Far freakin' out!!! The Captain must be God so I'm going back. Bow-legged trees, sack o' rude doves, garage key jai!!! Richard, having a wake up call, flashback or nightmare?

Subject: An antidote From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 08:09:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tried the I ching after k,& got'success in the beginning,failure in the end',which may have been prophetic but made me even more confused. Here's what Laura Riding has to say : 'That you do not understand yourself is not an accident of your consciousness,but the kind of consciousness you have chosen'.

Subject: my son has run away From: janet To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:55:28 (EDT) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: whoever posted below that supposed joke about 'my grandmother started walking 5 m iles a day when she was 65--and now we don't know where she is!' had no idea how close to the bone they were cutting. I wish I could laugh. But the truth is too much like it for me just now. My son the schizophrenic got on a greyhound bus for houston out of LA a week ago monday. he was going to the wedding of his female friend in the town my parents raised him-a country club gated community 50 miles south of houston,populated by well to do affluent families. Only in retrospect are we collecting all the details of really happened. His version of it was all great. We found out later from the bride that it was horrible. When he reached houstoun, he called the bride and expected her to come get him at 6 am and let him stay at her house. With her relatives coming in from all over, no less. She asked him why he wasn't staying with his grandparents 45 min away. so he called them second. He brought crazy clothes to wear--a tuxedo tail coat and a bib shirt and black dress slas, retreived from the dumpsters. My father trashed those and took him to the Men's Wearhouse and bought him a new blazer, whirt, tie and slacks to wear for the occasion. At the affair, he interrupted their wedding vowss by shouting out 'Blasphemy and lies' over the ceremony. At the reception,he went around pocketing all the custom printed matches they'd put out at each place setting for the guests. Not even one book was left for the bride to put in her wedding album afterwards. HE actually expected to come back and spend her wedding night at her family's house. She told him truthfully that the people he kept insisting were stll his best friends did not want to have anything to do with him anymore, that he could not stay with them and had better give up on his idea he could hit on them for a place to sleep or hang out. He refused to listen, called it all 'Lies'. I got a phone cal from him monday morning from my parents. Had he told me that they were sick of him and putting him on the bus that afternoon for home, I would have handled it differently. But that was not what he said. He told me he was bored and restless and since no one was free to see him, he wanted to come home. I asked him if there was no way he could extend his stay a bit, because i was truthfully rediscovering my self after years of feeling unreality, and i liked the time alone to myself in which to just get back with me. Little did I know what he heard in that. I was unaware for the next two days that anything was amiss.I presumed he stayed on a bit longer and found other things to do while there. But wed night last week, the phone rang at 8 in the evening, and it was my father's wife, asking me if he had come home. I was surprised. I told them, no, but I wasn't expecting him. Was he supposed to be?? And thud it began. I learned that she had driven him into houston monday afternoon and dropped him at the bus stop with 160 dollars, trusting that he would go in and purchase his one way ticket back to LA and be back home by wed. night. She now rues not having parked and accompanied him into the terminal and buying the ticket herself, and seeing him seated on the bus and it leaving with him on it. He was now missing, whereabouts unknown. calls i made to greyound revealed that they kept no passenger sign on, sign off list, to know who was on what bus, when. they ahd no faculty for speaking with their drivers on the road. and paging a passenger was only possible in the larger terminals when the buses were scheduled to be in for stops and connections. I went on the net all that night to no avail. I finally put in a Missing PErsons report around 2 am with the LAPD and got assurances that it would be in the national computer in about 3 hours. I slept badly in the morning, and then worked the phones and the net all day thursday, going thru his online address list trying to get the word out, asking if he had contacted anyone on it with intentions to come see them or stay with them. nothing bore fruit and 5 of the best hopes returned 'addressee unknown'. by late afternoon I had to make myself stop, and go buy catfood at the store. with my overweight and too much smoking, the walk was laborious. i was gone 3 hours. getting the ggroceries up the stairs alone was a bit scary, with me genuinely afraid of precipitating a heart attack, taking one stair at a time with one small bag until I'd carried them all up. wathced a tv show and then thought to run my phone messages. had to rewind the spool clean back to three weeks ago.. so by the end, my attention had wandered and i almost missed the critical entries. at the very end was his father in hew haven telling me he had not realized the seriousness of the situation, until he got my email. his computer had crashed all day, and he spent 9 hours reinstalling it all day, had just ffone online moments ago at 10-pm new haven time and seen my bulletin. his news was that the kid had gotten into new haven the day before at 10am and called him. he was at a friends nearby and the guy had generously told him he could stay a month on his couch. his friend was in law school finals week but would take him down to new jersey the coming weekend to see mutual school chums from High school. his father was now angry, and assured me hhe would see to it that he was put on a bus home the next day. I gave the situation a lot of thought, and felt I ought to at least contact the police and report him found. LA told me to call new haven police and report him found. his father had given me the friends address and phone. the cop was the selt of the earth.mobilized his team and told me they had a bead on him, were going to the guy's apt in minutes, and would try to patch me straight thru to the team on the scene. I rested that they be prepared to arrest him or committ him, if he showed the least signs of combativeness or instability. They went, prepared. unfortnately, they had to call and wake his father at 3:30am to notify him of this action. whiel waiting for their return report, his father rang me. irate. unhappy. his elderly mother awakened as well and now also upset. I explained what i had done and that i had asked he not be disturbed till daybreak, but they couldnt be remiss and go against policy. the police were duty bound to alert him. the phone cuts in with the team at the apt. i am regretfully told by the team leader that my son seemed calm, cooperative and gave them no reason to apprehend him. they had to leave him as they found him. he had broken no law. friday his father brought hi into the office and placed a conferenccall on speakerphone, so that we could both try to talk some sense into him. he maintained that he had old girlfriends he could stay with in new jersey, that he was gonna get his license, get another car, buy a house, get a job. maintained he despised and feared LA, 'the ghetto, the gunshots, the danger'. his father tried to make him understand that there were no jobs in the area, that peole with ten times his history were going beging to work for nothing. it was front page news. i countered his proposals with stark facts he had not prepared himself to face and meet responsibly, we both argued with him not to go around imposing and making others carry him who could barely carry themselves. he met it all with grandiose, babbling, pompuos bluffing. we knew he hadnt a clue what he was facing out there. by the phone calls end, his father did something utterly uncharacteristic-- he the soft spoken pacifist, was moved to shrieking, screaming wrath and frustration. he broke something in his office he was so beyond the pale. and the boy answered by closing his eyes. sound familiar? the son of two premies. the call was a total loss. the kid hung up in my face when dad took a bathroom break. saturday was no better. dad worked in his office to recoup what he lost thurs and fri. and when the son called, the news was i n stark contrast to the earlier. the friend was throwing him out. the magic month abruptly had been withdrawn. but the law students had given him the name of a lawyer they knew. the boy had left him a message. he wanted to sue me for abuse. his father, weary of the stress, wanted to put him back on the bus to LA the next day. my parents weighed in with their demands. they wanted him flown back, non stop. the father didnt want to drive all the way into new york to JFK airport, so he negotiated for hartford/bradley instead. it was nearby. my father put up the fare and his father made the reservations. sunday the kid was to be on a plane and on his way back to LA. but the father wasnt smart or quick enough. while he was in his office bathroom, the boy absconded and went into new york city on the train. missed the flight, of course. my parents were freaked. my fathers wofe feared for her ancient mother, a sweet soul of 95 years who has been in and out of the hospital recently and has a bad heart. she lives in a four story walkup apt in the city, and would be the sort to welcome the kid in if he showed up asking to stay on the couch, and then the trouble would begin in her house. she was certain it could bring on her mother's death. she was livid and determined that he not get anywhere near her mother's--and now he had gone into the city. All i could advise her was to call her family in new york and set her brothers and nephews on watch for him, to bar him in the street from ever reaching the door to the building. I took his father to task, long distance, for not being sharp enough to watch him every moment, to have known to anticipate something exactly like this of him. The kid came home of his own, as if nothing had happened. was jocular and casual and full of repulsive banter, alternating with bursts of accusations that everyone was lying about everything to him. he spent the night sleeping in the office with his baggae, having been thrown out of the law school friend's. today dawned tense and distrustfully. his father succeeded in taking him to bradly/hartford and getting him on the first leg of a flight from bradley to Newark new jersey. a flight plan which required a change of planes in newark to a continental light out of newark to LA, due in at 11 pm tonight. I slaped my head and agai castigated him for failing to do his part in getting him put on a plane nonstop cross country from which he could only elope by parachite from 8 miles up!!! it was too late. he had already put him on the flight in hartford and told the stewards to escort him from one plane to the other in newark. take note: because of the new security practices in airports since sept 11, he could not go past the entry point forcompanions. only passengers could go beyond the checkpoints for boarding. and beause the boy was switching from one airline to another, and the final airline could not be spoken with at the onset of the journey, no one could guarantee of be responsible for the kid's actually getting on the plane in newark. at 6 pm, i felt a black, sinking blanket of depression come over me. I bucked under it and gave in to something like a death nap for several hours. i was roused by the phone at 9 pm, a friend of mine who has been involved on the side, calling to ask if I was going to the airport to meet him i looked at the time and realized I had better get up and pull myself together. she offered to put me on 3 way and call the airline to see if we could confirm that he actually boarded the plane in newark, note again: Continental stonewalled us. I reepatedly explained that this was a 23 year old schizophrenic who was a Missing Person, that had failed to arrive a week earlier on a bus, he had been found and was being returned, but was an escape risk, and he was not legally an adult because I am still his court conservator, so his rights to his adult privacy were not in force, I was met with one question: 'is he a danger to the airline, yes or no'. I demanded to hear first what a 'yes response from me wouldresult in. I was firmly refused a reply. I pressed again and was refused again. I hotly pointed out that i live in a city where the police kill 90 pound mentally ill homeless women brandishing screwdrivers and deaf men bicycling away from them, using magnum force without considering alternatives. I was not about to give them a carte blanche reason to do so to my son with a simple yes, not knowing what a yes would entail on their part. i was coldly told that there was nothing they could do without an answer from me and they hung up. ... ... ... ... the clock ticked. the plane was due at 11 and it was nearly 10. my friend dialed the policeat the airport. the connection failed and i was left with a blank line. i obtained the number of the airport police myself and began again, describing the circumstances, and asking them urgently what could be done to determine if my son was in fact on that plane, and could he be met and detained upon his arriving. one office said if they met him, he became theirs and they could not release hi to me, only to a jail or hospital. I said that would be fine, he warranted it with his repeated escapes. the next office said they couldnt do it if he hadnt broken the law or caused a disturbance that interfered with the flight. a third office said they'd ask the airline if he was on the airplane. the answer came back yes, gave his seat number. said the pilot had had no problem passengers. I implored them as to how I could safeguard that he could be met and escorted from the plane to a secure holding area so that I would be certain of finding him and being able not to miss him at disembarking. more minutes ticking by. finally an offer to have a cop tell an agent to walk him fof the lane to the screening area to await my coming for him, while I would go thru special security screening to go up to the area upon arrival from the street. tiis now too short to make it there by the buses. I call a taxi and dress and get outside to wait the car. I am so tense, i start ripping dry grass out of my lawn to keep from tearing out my hair. a fast ride to the airport, 16 dollars and I'm out the car and into the ghostly empty terminal at midnight. i spy the continental ticket supervisor and approach briskly. she wastes time gossiping with a coworker and I have to clap my hands to make her note me there. I tell her 'the airport police directed me here? I am to meet a runaway missing person who is being returned on a continental flight right now?? will you take me thru the procedure? she issues me a pass and walks me thru the empty halls, hearing my story. after an awkward passage thru the metal detectors and x rays, the cop meets us empty handed and says simply 'the plane came in. he wasnt on it.' I turn on the agent and incredulous, demand how could they tell me not an hour ago that he boarded the plane in newarld and here he wasnt on the plane after all??!! iget one red tape stoneall from the police, another one from the agent. neither one is interested in helping me further. my anger and my disbeleif are monting with each new corporate excuse for responsibility. at the height of it, I stap back and gape at both of them and level an ice stare, and hiss' i dont believe either of yo--or your agencies--are genuinely concerned with coordinating and working together to tighten national security.i think all you care about is collecting your paycheck and covering your own asses. i am furious at this. here i satnd, and there is my son, ill and escaping again and agian, and in between, you have formed this no mans land of corporate fear of being sued, and witholding from me when i need it most. since it is being sued that you fear the most, perhaps that is what i will have to do to make you hear me. you are going to be exposed for the sham that you are. no wonder the terrorists had such an easy time of it.you dont care about containing someone from escape! all you care about is protecting your own tiny bailiwicks! they looked stricken, all eyes turhning to me, and I expected someone to bring out a gun or cuff and start toward mebut they didnt. they stood frozen in their tracks as i headed down to escalator and walked out into the night, not a soul in sight in the whole place for blocks. finally a taxi hove into view and i hailed him and got in. related my whole rageful scenario to him on the drive home. he had a daughter my sons age in the same college. thru his awkward russian accented english, he conveyed his understanding and agreement with me. I got home, and as i came up my lawn immediately my mood lifted. I realized I don't have to agree to go thru this if i choose not to. all that i had learned in AA and ACA came back to me again: nothing is worth trading away my serenity for. it is codependent as hell to want to try so hard to catch the boy and make him conform. it is not worth the hell. I have been fooled and mocked and played with enough. My sanity lies in me.I dont have to do this. And I won't do it any further. I refuse. If he comes home, he will find himself kicked out. I am going to empty his room and ready it for a new rommate--or no roommate. If my parents have worres about the great grandmother, they can set up guards around her . I can't. If his father is too mild or unwitting to anticipate his moves, let him get sharper by experience. Or let him do as i am, and turn his back. If the kid is so sure he knows how to survive, let him get his tastes of it. If he deteriorates, the police will arrest him and he'll find himself committed. Or jailed. If he keeps on burning people he uses as he goes, maybe he'll get his face kicked in again, like he did when he got onto crack, and denied that it harmed him. My life is not his. My choices are not his. My serenity is my life. Chasing him is no different than trying to reform an alcoholic. It is pointless and needlessly painful. Nothing will stop them but hitting the wall, the bottom, their own stark consequences, with nothing left to break their fall. I need not go down there with them. I have learned my lesson. now i understand that this is what was meant by the saying 'if you try to save someone and he fights you, then give him two pushes under'. it is not as cruel as it sounds. what i have been subjected to this week is cruelty. i must pull back, for my own preservation. my sanity is at stake. it's all i know. it's the only one i have.

Subject: Re: my son has run away From: Gail To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 15:24:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, let the state handle him. Maybe the school of hard knocks will change him. Geez, you don't want to be your son's babysitter for the rest of your life. Besides, who will take over when you can't do it anymore.

Subject: Re: my son has run away From: Gail To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 15:01:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, let the state handle him. Maybe the school of hard knocks will change him. Geez, you don't want to be your son's babysitter for the rest of your life. Besides, who will take over when you can't do it anymore.

Subject: Janet I just emailed you... [nt] From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:39:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: reactions to your reactions From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:14:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think posting this is OT because it seems to me that this is a case study in the effects on kids of having two parents that met and conceived him and were in the cult until he was a young adult. I am sure there are realizations here, lessons, chastenings, to take from this cautionary tale. To those of you who offer support--Cynthia, Richard, et al--I thank you deeply. I sure could use it here. I spent a ragged week, giving every waking minute over to the tracking and pursuit of the boy, and then an exhausting phone call of sustained madness and rudeness, attempting to get him to understand simple conversation, and then several more days of unmerciful grueling effort, false hopes and dashed ones, before turning my eyes on myself and realizing that in all this stress, I had sustained wounds of my own, that needed attention and a time out. I felt as if I had been chasingsomething precious thru the thornbushes, and only when it seemed to have finally gone to ground did I notice that I was bleeding and in pain myself, and had to quit and take a rest. I took the phone off the hook the entire day, and dedicated today to letting myself try to rest. I took a personal day and spent it taking the time very carefully to meet my own depleted needs. It did not feel selfish, so much as realizing the horse was going to drop dead if I didn't call it off and let the thing stop and rest, eat and sleep before we could go on again. And that's 'If' we are able to go on, again. To those of you below whose responses are cynical or doubtful or outright crass-ass cruel, I will reserve for you the level of regard that you merit. To Bill and Tonette, I raise my sad, tired head and still with hope in my eyes, reply 'Do you think so? Let's get into these questions, then. I want to understand. I want to know what this really is. Maybe i made mistakes. Maybe there's more I can do, and maybe ther's no more.. Maybe nothing I could do would reach him, if he has his mind made up. But I am interested in going into the real questions. Bill, I understand you live near the kid's father. Maybe you can meet the boy yourself and listen to him and 'translate' to me what he sounds like he's wanting to be understood for. I would be grateful for anyone who could intervene and help us. Tonette, I like the vantage point you looked at it from. Let's go into more of that. Maybe I need another perspective to view it from, not so close to it as my present one. Things I may not have made clear: i never knew what the definition of schizophrenia was until they diagnosed him as having it. But after reading up, and thinking back on my life, I dawned on me that I must have had a flavor of it myself for nigh on 20 years or more. I didnt know that's what it was. I thought I had some special spiritual gift or guidance. I was distantly aware that there was something truly distorted about my reasoning , thought and belief processes, but I also secretly harbored a knowledge that those were defense mechanisms I had erected to hold back rage, unbearable sorrow and grief over how my life went. I hear my son employing the selfsame devices right now when he yells at us. So if he is in the same headspace that I used to live in, then I know exactly what he's doing, and why he's erecting that flimsy fortress around himself, and shoring it up more each time he retells the story, the way he wants to believe it and spread it. It's a self deception, thrown up because the emotional and realworld truths are too painful to integrate. For those who mentioned it: He has been on meds for 4 years, except for times when he went off them. He has been on Zyprexa, tegretol, haldol, clonopin, and risperidal. His doctor let him discontinue the tegretol and zyprexa 6 months ago and just take risperidal at whatever dose is comfortable, and he settled at a low dose that he liked. the others made him sleep 70% of the day away and the risperidal doesn't. He has his pills with him. The police counted them out and assured me . His father counted them again on the phonecall to double check. He has about 45 days worth of meds with him for now. I never had meds for my years . Adult schizophrenia typically levels out at around age 40 for no reason the doctors can yet identify. It did in my case. It starts at around the late teens for males, early 20's for females. That, too holds true to the pattern with me, and now with him.For me it was about 23. For him it was 18. I have timed his cycles. He takes about 8 weeks to fall from going off his meds to reaching full blown psychosis that precipitates behavior so bizarre to society, his doctora and the police,that it warrants arrest and hospitalization. The last time, he has to be committed, but he escaped at two months. In his absence, I am perceiving my world differently. I took a walk today and saw my neighborhood as I have never quite appreciated it before. I would pass places we had both been together, and reflect on the memory, and ask myself why did I see it that way then, but see it this way now? Was I keying off his peculiar mental state? Am I seeing now with my own clean eyes? Or did I myself cause the unhappy energy, that i carry from the memory of before? IF you have ever done 12 step work, you will recognize that I am trying to walk my steps now.This searching is part 4th step, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th. I think we know in our souls when we have done a wrong and what we ought to do to make it right.And we can try to evade it for a long time, but it never goes away. It's there until we cop to the truth, and square our shoulders, and face it with honesty, and do what is appropriate. I was aware, when he landed with me, four years ago, that it was going to be testy and questionable whether I , a disabled person with my own impairment, could take care of him with his impairment. I handled it with all I had, with all I could, from the minute he arrived here, but I always had it in the back of my mind that I might prove to have some fatal flaw that would eventually cripple what I could handle. Everyone kept saying what a wonderful job I was doing with him-- But if called before some imaginary celestial court of review, I can see myself shrinking before the Tribunal, when pressed as to whether I TRUTHFULLY gave it all I had, or did all I could. I always felt that penetrating presence, boring down upon me when I responded to the moment disingenuously with less than complete effort, in taking care of him or being with him. It didn't seem I could be a person with him. Having him in the house scared me. I covered it by being matter of fact, dutiful, always focusing on getting stuff done, work work work. whenever we went out somewhere, all i felt was like I wanted to get it over with, so I could go home and rest, to get away from him for a while. These and other things are coming back to haunt me now. I am in some state of shock, but the door is open to listening.I can still hear you. When i listened to him on the phone, little fragments of what he was trying to make understood shone thru, but there is ahell of a lot of ignorance in turmoil in there too,which would have to be calmed and explained to him, until he began to actually hear it, before what he is trying to make us understand would make much sense and get somewhere. Bill, if you're in touch with his father, tell him he certainly can bid to become a conservator in the state of CT, it doesn't conflict with me having it in CA at all. It's not like custody. I think he misunderstands that somehow. By all means, if he wants it, he shoudl initiate it there. But it was incredibly difficult here, so He should be prepared for some monumental obstacles in the system in making it so. Like the ones I ran into this week in trying to get the various agencies to act and do what seemed obvious. I don't exactly know whether I can 'transfer it to him' out there, but i will if I in fact can do that. I delibarately posted my email address above so that this could be continued in private off the forum, if everyone thinks it's OT-- But i think theres a hell of alot in this, that bears on issues of premie denial, cult twisted thinking, maintaining an unreal belief about life or the world, the limbo formed between oneself and others, as a premie, that precludes genuine relationships, because theres supposed to be only One relationship that is Real your whole life.... and so identifying the far reaching damage done must continue, and figuring out what to replace it with, how to grow out of it, we keep working on with each other and ourselves, here.

Subject: Re: reactions to your reactions From: Dep =) To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:55:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I know that when women have a problem they need someone to talk to so they can work it out by putting it into words. That’s all they want. They don’t want someone, usually always a man, to give them advice or to try to fix or minimize their problem. They just want a sympathetic ear. Okay, having said that (hey at least I know men are from mars) I suggest you check out 'The Work' of Byron Katie at www.thework.org Answer the four questions and then turn it around and see what happens. I’ll bet you’ll be pleasantly surprised. According to Katie: - Everyone is a mirror image of yourself, your own thinking coming back at you. - No one can hurt us. That’s our job. - The work always leaves us with less of a story. Who would you be without your story? You never know until you inquire. There is no story that is you or that leads to you. Every story leads away from you. You are what exists before all stories. You are what remains when the story is understood. There is no sadness without the story. (and my personal favourite,) - Reality is always kinder than the stories we tell about it. =)

Subject: What he is afficted with can be a gift. From: Tonette To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:32:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Janet, This is your son we are talking about here. A very young adult. Most likely intelligent like you, no make that, extrememly intelligent. Whatever. He is your son, the very best of you. The love between you two is 'deeper than the ocean.' Meaning the love between a mother and her child (ren) is purer and much more significant than any other love offered to us as human's. Most of the time anyway. Let's put it this way, it makes M's love appear as tarnished and cheap. Getting my drift? I thought your son was raised by your mother and father. That doesn't diminish your connection to him but does put into question your statement along the lines of, 'see what happens when two premies have children.' Yes, you gave him certain DNA and the genes mingled between you and his father however, he was not raised in the environment of Ralwat's wisdom/religion. You know him better than I do and his schizhoid personna, his mind, as you describe. From what I can gather an anti-psychotic like risperidal, taken religiously, can be a god send, (pardon the pun). I know you want to help him. Your concern and pain and worry from what you have written is very evident, transparent and very real. Isn't motherhood just great fun? Come back down to Earth a little and take a gander at the real issue here. Your son would greatly benefit from theraphy, a light med and most importantly, a solid, stable, predictable, routine, environment. Grounded in reality, ie stay away from the TV and sharp edge music. No pot and no drinking. Try, no make him, identify a direction or a goal he would like to move towards, accompolish and support him in his endeavor. Be, by all outwards appearances, solid, stable, show good behavior, and goals for yourself; tangible ones. This is your part Janet. To help him you have to grow yourself. Just my two cents. I'll be thinking of you. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Good advice, Tonette From: Barbara To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 13:11:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My younger brother has schizophrenia. I don't like to say he's schizophrenic because he's more than his disease. I, too, doubt that Janet's son's schizophrenia has anything to do with Janet and the father being premies, as that ascribes a magical quality to premiedom which doesn't exist. There are many theories as to the cause, the nature/nurture debate, etc. One of the more recent theories is that schizophrenia is a virus which is activated by a trauma. Who knows, and the bottom line is that these theories make little difference to the person who suffers from schizophrenia (the theories are useful in research in attempting to discover a 'cure' for it, but that's about it). Routine is essential to a functioning schizophrenic. My brother is a master electrician who received the highest score to date in the state on his licensing exam, and he works steadily in his trade. Stress is the tipping point for him, and in this regard, a routine minimizes potential stress. My older brother and I (our parents are dead) also help him out financially, legally, medically, or in any other necessary manner, in order to keep his stress at a minimum. He also takes medication which is what allows him to maintain an even keel. Additionally, he knows that he can call us whenever and where ever if he needs to (we all live 3,000 miles away from each other). So, Janet, rest assured you're doing everything you can. You've notified your relatives, your and his friends, and the police, and now you're playing the waiting game, hoping he'll contact you soon. Once he returns and hopefully calms down, I, too, suggest that he set a goal, big or small is no matter, while you support him emotionally and psychologically in attaining his goal. By having a goal in mind, a routine is somewhat set up and potentially will provide banks to his overflowing river. I know that the kind of waiting you have to endure is relentlessly nerve-wracking, but I know you have the means to endure it. Take care.

Subject: Re: reactions to your reactions From: Vicki To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:44:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're a mom, plain and simple. We do our best, exhaust ourselves and never think it's enough, because we want what's best, and always feel we might have been better. It's a tricky business raising children, small ones or big ones, because we come with our own particular set of imprinted behaviour. If we could only go back, and have another chance knowing what we know now, how different we might be. Life changes us by our experiences, hopefully making us wiser in the process. One day your son will understand, that you gave him everything you had to offer, at that time in your life. If you are resting and healing, you will have even more to offer. Love and honesty and good doctors can do wonders. It seems to me you are brutally honest in facing your life. I hope for nothing but the best and maybe a little gentleness and kindness for you and your son.

Subject: Re: my son has run away From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 22:23:32 (EDT) Email Address: sylviecyn@yahoo.com Message: Dear Janet, I can't imagine what you've been going through. If your son won't take meds (is that true?) will he be comitted? I can't give advice not being a parent but as usual, I will. I wonder if he does need a vacation in a hospital, to get straightened out with meds. Are they really dreadful, the hospitals? We have one state hospital in VT and it's dreadful. Can you get him into a good hospital psych ward for evaluation for meds? At least that would get him off the streets and give you some peace of mind to get over this crisis. Then I read Bill's post below and agree with him. I don't know how to give comfort in this situation though. If you'd like to email me and talk more privately, please do, really. Cynthia

Subject: I disagree. From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 16:53:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, You said, 'Now i understand that this is what was meant by the saying 'if you try to save someone and he fights you, then give him two pushes under'' I will not mention of course that we heard that cop out advice from rawat. He didnt arrive in LA to live with you and come with a crack habit did he? Not according to his dad. Your boyfriend was doing pot and whatever else at your house at the time, according to his dad. You might not be the right person for him to live with, but you dump him on the street of LA of all cities? Not a good idea. There is also another rawat line that he borrowed and used at us, 'the guy who is holy saves the scorpion drowning even though it bites him' We can quibble about the logics in any of the hindu wisdoms, but none the less, the point is relevant in this case, so what that this is bothersome and wont end when you decide you have had it? If you had raised him you would have reached this point a thousand times before and lived through it while (hopefully) reaching into your heart for whatever love it took for you to come from a healthy place and support whatever is his healthy choice. It is not an issue of cruelty to you and your sanity. It is an issue of you finding MORE love in your heart today than you want to have and pulling it out and in the face of more hardship and mental issues, yet pulling even more love out of you. You can tell us of your frustrations, we ARE your freinds I believe, but I go throught hell in my life and there are no shortcuts and no easy street outs when you are faced with a child in distress. We have no choice (although some would fool us into thinking we do). Our choice is only to have a bigger heart than we want to have and you can do that even though some voice in your head wants to complain that you are too weak to handle it. I am not talking about acting like his dad. There are much worse things that can happen to him and dont think 'bottom' is what you imagine. It can really be far worse. Save him where he is. So what that it takes everything that you have. So what that he is appearing deaf. All the other adults in his world are sending him to you. Complain to us, we support you, we care, bailing out on him is not an option.

Subject: Re: got some items wrong here bil From: janet To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 07:19:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you got a number of points mistaken in here, Bill. I was in overwhelming pain the first time i read them. now i can address them. you said: Hi Janet, You said, 'Now i understand that this is what was meant by the saying 'if you try to save someone and he fights you, then give him two pushes under'' --- --- --- --- I will not mention of course that we heard that cop out advice from rawat. --- --- --- He didnt arrive in LA to live with you and come with a crack habit did he? Not according to his dad. --- --- --- no, he arrived off his meds and full of beans, defying me and walking into oncoming traffic obliviously, and displaying a lot of rage and hostility and outright snide behavior, and I hat to hit the ground at a dead run to find us a home, get him meds and get him to take them, get him on disability, and keep body and soul together, from a standing start. 0 to 95 in a days time. I pulled it off. IT was accomplished. --- --- --- --- - Your boyfriend was doing pot and whatever else at your house at the time, according to his dad. --- --- not being here in person, and not listening terribly closely, his dad gets things wrong from 2500 miles away, a lot. The boyfriend i had at the time the kid arrived here, was ferociously anti drug, and mightily helpful where he never had to be. He came along and renederd massive labor to help us get the new house and clean it out of the former drug dealers who'd inhabited it, and he helped us put it in order for ourselves to live here. The person his father thinks he was referring to was not a boyfriend, but a former roomate of mine who wanted to get away from a situation where he was the sole income in a house of three with a new baby [not his] and wanted to move in with us [back in with me] and split the rent 3 ways, which was a good idea for us all. This person smoked pot, but no more than that. He flatly was not into crack or anything else. There was drug dealing and gunplay on our street then, it was rampant. Our son had been an acidhead from age 16 to 18, beyond anyone's control, following Phish tour like hippies used to follow the Dead on tour. He didn't do acid anymore once here. but he was still into pot, and it took time to reason him away from it. I started off tolerant and open, and let things take their course. I beleive everything is its own reward, and it will eventually make it real clear to you whther its good or not. hangovers and bad trips tend to wean you away from drink and drug all by themselves, as do more rewarding things you do by comparison. was the roommate the bad influence? maybe yes, maybe no. a person is gonna do what theyre gonna do, despite who's around. --- --- --- -- You might not be the right person for him to live with, but you dump him on the street of LA of all cities? --- --- - you've gotten this part wrong. I didn't dump him anywhere. he lived here. on the lease. income. food. medical care. tons of stuff he owned and was into. a room of his own. a yard. the beach. social things to do and go to. college.his own phone. internet accounts. guitars, drums, all of it. he took off for a wedding in texas and after it, since he was out there already, decided to disappear instead of come back to this. he dumped this, bill. i didnt dump him anywhere. --- --- --- --- Not a good idea. There is also another rawat line that he borrowed and used at us, 'the guy who is holy saves the scorpion drowning even though it bites him' --- --- --- - yup. and he's biting and biting and I'm reaching and reaching. if it were a dog or a man doing the biting, I'd have to rethink and perhaps employ a trank dart ['two pushes under'] to knock him out so that i could take him to safety and operate to save his life. thats what anesthesia is for, Bill. that's what arrest, committing, mental health hold and jail are for. sometimes you can't save the party as long as they're able to feel- and panic- and take you for the enemy [when you aren't]. I speak from experience, having rescued a dog with a smashed pelvis from heavy traffic and getting deeply bitten in the process. I forgave the dog. What else could it do? --- --- --- --- -- We can quibble about the logics in any of the hindu wisdoms, but none the less, the point is relevant in this case, so what that this is bothersome and wont end when you decide you have had it? If you had raised him you would have reached this point a thousand times before and lived through it while (hopefully) reaching into your heart for whatever love it took for you to come from a healthy place and support whatever is his healthy choice. --- --- --- - I think in four years of handling him after everyone else in the family had had him, and come to the end of their abilities with him, I demonstrated that I did this as well as anyone. I do wish I had been allowed to raise him from the start, as a mother expects to, however. He would have had far more respect for me had he known me and my ways and accepted me as mommy all the while he was a child. Remember--he was taken from me at age three by affluent parents, and I could not afford the court challenge to get custody back, and I only got him back when he was 19, after getting schizophrenia, after getting into late male adolescence, after traveling alone on Phish tour all summer after highschool, and at a point after male children generally no longer regard their mothers as anything but irrelevant and alien in the face of their testosterone and libido. I had to work uphill against these strikes against me, and I still managed to win his admiration and coolness awards just by being myself and showing my moves. --- --- --- --- -- It is not an issue of cruelty to you and your sanity. --- --- --- Uh--yeah bill. it is. at this point, the pain is incredible. the kid is completely unaware of anything but himself right now. he isnt htinking in terms of what his moves do to me, whter its practically, like how can I keep this house without his half of the partnership to pay for what we have here--and he hasn't the faintest concept of how raw and cruel it is of him to set us all up with intention lying that he's coming back, and then escaping yet again in the face of the work lost, sleep lost, hours of stress, the emotional wringer, money now needlessly wasted on him for a suit, transit, planefare, lodging, food bought for him, care shown, each of which he has flouted with impudence and uncaring and his disappearance repeatedly. what he is doing is intentional, deliberate, calculated and on purpose. At some point, I MUST take a stand and bar myself from being treated like this.I deserve better. I will not come down on my price. I have worth and I know what I deserve validly.I will not sell, beggar or give myself away at insulting levels, not for him, not for anyone. You want me, you pay what I ask for. If a person wants a thing enough, they'll find a way to come up with the asking price. Even the homeless have money, and they spend it on what they want. Theft of anything is a crime, and that includes theft of credibility, which is the crime i realize he has been perpetrating, and i am plugging my security breaches. --- --- --- -- It is an issue of you finding MORE love in your heart today than you want to have, and pulling it out, and in the face of more hardship and mental issues, yet pulling even more love out of you. --- --- --- Bill, at this point, he can't hear love. He stood in the room of a wedding ceremony listening to two of his lifelong friends exchanging their wedding vows and shouted out during their vows to each other that they were saying 'blasphemy and lies'. The only kind of love that could stop him now would be a full blast manifestation of Jesus in Person that could knock all thought clean out of Creation. And that, I can't do. I know who can, but that one, I can't cause. That's up to Someone Else. --- --- --- --- --- - You can tell us of your frustrations, we ARE your freinds I believe, but I go throught hell in my life and there are no shortcuts and no easy street outs when you are faced with a child in distress. --- --- --- - I didn't think there were. I don't think I am taking any, either. At some point, the child and the adult commingle, and the adult doesn't want your help doing what they think they want to do. You can't force it on them at that point. The adult is supposed to take care of the cild and be in charge. But sometimes, the Child takes over and uses the adult know-how as a child would weild it to run the show. Then you have adult strength and cunning and world experience being used to act out a child's level of maturity, understanding and intent. And that's dangerous to the person and to all around them. Because an adult body can obtain drugs, money, guns,vehicles--but no child knows how to handle them or comprehends their true impact. --- --- --- --- - We have no choice (although some would fool us into thinking we do). --- --- -- what would you have me do, Bill? get on aplane and fly ot east? fly to where? I don't know where he is. I have no address, no phone leads, nothing to go on. should I go and get lost myself, chasing him ? Knowing he is determined to evade me? Would you have me get him committed? Sure, but first we have to find him. How?? Have the police arrest him? sure--but first they have to find him. Then they have to see him as meriting arrest. If he's calm, if he puts on a good act, as he did at the friends apt, they have no legal grounds to arrest him. They fear a lawsuit if they try it. what woudl you have me do, Bill, different than i am? than i have already done? His father had him right there in front of him and couldnt hold him. He took a bathroom break and the kid bolted. He put him on a plane home and the kid bolted. should he have handcuffed himself to the boy and own him back here to LA to me? should I have then cuffed myself to him before releasing the father? How long do you think that could have gone on? Supposing he'd decided to beat me? Should I have endured it and not released the cuffs? Should a woman 2 years into menoapuse with osteoporosis endure the physical might of a 23 year old man who played varsity football fullback? How far should I go, Bill? How much should I subject myself to? At what point do I release it and recognize the cutoff point? If I subject myself to it, how much ought i love myself, and how should that guide my decisions? --- --- --- - Our choice is only to have a bigger heart than we want to have --- --- -- heart is fine. I also can't break my heart. I need it in order to live, and to live another day. how much heart should HE have, Bill? What about it? Where is his heart, in all this? --- --- - and you can do that even though some voice in your head wants to complain that you are too weak to handle it. --- --- - no, the voice that spoke up wasnt my head. it was a greater, vaster, quieter voice I recognized that has intervened in my life before, in my darkest hours, in my most hopeless vaults, and counseled me to remember what I have been Shown, and to remember that there is a bigger story, and that he is in vaster hands than mine, and that i am in vaster hands than mine, too. --- --- --- --- --- --- I am not talking about acting like his dad. --- -- well--THAT's a curious and fascinating comment. Do I dare pry further, and find out what you might have meant by THAT??????????? I know you know his dad. you wanna explain that one off the forum, maybe? --- --- --- --- - There are much worse things that can happen to him and dont think 'bottom' is what you imagine. It can really be far worse. --- -- yes. it can. and he has chosen it, thinking it can't happen to him, he's too cool. maybe you should find him and explain that to him. if you can. --- --- --- - Save him where he is.-- Sure. How????? --- --- --- - So what that it takes everything that you have. --well, then he has nothing and then i have nothing either.what can i give him or do for him, if i have nothing? So what that he is appearing deaf? --- --- - you can't save someone from themselves, bill. i guess you've never done any codependency/ alcoholic type work on survival. --- --- --- All the other adults in his world are sending him to you. --- --and he's sending himself away from all of us. he has a will, too, you know.. he's not a quadruple amputee or a bundle in swaddling blankets that can be tossed from one to another, helpless to move and go where he wishes to. Complain to us, we support you, we care, bailing out on him is not an option. --- really? he's bailed out on us --- !? Have you read 'the man who talks to horses'? you can either break a horse, or you can gentle them. you do it by chasing a wild horse a little bit, then turning your backc. then chase a little more, then turning your back. you get the horse kind of tired of evading, evading, evading, and eventually, you stand still and turn your back. the horse begins to feel exposed, alone, left out, wanting to be with someone else. [they ARE herd animals, ya know. they instinctively feel safer in a group. they don't like being alone.] It will study you. it will watch you. If you ignore it, it will come closer, curious. You remain still, It will begin to follow you, then. you can intrigue it, get it to come investigate you. You reverse the game, and it will become the one pursuing you. eventually it will come right up where it can sniff you, check you over, as long as you don't turn around and face it, con-front it. your front is threatening. but your back and side are not. it realizes your back is your vulnerable side, the side you can't defend. and if you are showing it your back, it senses that you are giving it your vulnerable side to approach safely, without danger. I do this with my cats, too. If i chase them, they flee. They are wired to do it. so to get them to come to me, I have to sit down and feign disinterest. That eventually gets their curiosity and they come to me and tramp all over me, trying to get me to pay attention. At that point, I can pick them up and carry them into the house, and the chase is forgotten. My son was born in the year of the horse. this, now, is also the year of the horse. I choose not to chase him any more. he knows his way home. he knows how to get back to me from anywhere in the country. when he gets lonely and tires of being exposed and away from the herd, the group, the place he belongs, he'll tire of the chase-me game. horse herds themselves use this craving for the group to punish their own horses that misbehave. they push them out and then wall them out. they drive them out of the herd, and deny them membership until the offender gets truly alarmed at being shut out, and comes back and humbles himself and makes obeisances to show how badly they want to be taken back in and forgiven.

Subject: This is why I read you. From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 22:04:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, You are an interesting writer for sure. Dont fergit, all I had to go on was the post you posted, which was not as informative as the great post you just posted here. Maybe my try was off the mark but from your post I felt you needed someone to try to buck you back into the fight. That it had collapsed you and cold then warm water seemed like a helpful thing... I knew after I got off the computer that my comment about his dad didnt communicate what I meant. It was not a dig at you, But, like you said, too few words to be effective or useful. I am glad I posted because it provided a way for you to elaborate for us more of your thinking on this. I wondered as I do sometimes if my new approach in my home is always the best or not, the same approach I used with you... to go ahead and say things on personal subjects. I do that now because it seems like the majority of the time it is positive, of course here, I have more knowledge of the situation than I had of yours. I havent talked to your husband for quite some time, and I do understand and thought positively of your sons childhood. He did have all the benefits. Your husband did tell me that he felt you and he were doing what was best for your son. He was alarmed about the person in your house, but like you said, he got it wrong. You might have noticed that I avoided numerous battles on the forum because I realized that I most always didnt know all the details so my reactions would be off. When I read your post I was compelled because it was a call for help as well as a way to share. And, since I am a long time reader of yours, I could hardly stand by and not respond. What can I say except I hope you are ok with my effort and the positive is at least that it gave you a chance to cover the subjects in greater detail for us. Which must be a relief for others as it is for me. Hey, even those here that give you some flak probably dont want to see you in distressful situations.

Subject: Big hug Janet From: Richard To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 13:15:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This must surely be a very difficult and terrifying time for you. I salute your courage and support you in taking care of yourself. You are a strong woman and I wish you all the best. Big hug. Richard

Subject: Inappropriate Behavior From: Voyeur To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:31:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first started reading this message it sounded interesting, but as I read on it reminded me of how I got involved with premies and stayed involved with them. Having been brought up in a household where inappropriate behaviour was the norm, it was easy to get involved with people who seemed OK on the outside but went on to exhibit signs of inappropriate behavior which upbringing accustomed me to cover up and explain away. Over the last ten years these particular scales have fallen from my eyes. The email and the behavior described in it are inappropriate here, as inappropiate as they were at virtually every premie house I ever stayed or visited.

Subject: Re: Inappropriate Behavior From: gerry To: Voyeur Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:23:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Janet came to the appropriate conclusions, however. She has her life, and he has his. What's this young fella's name, Janet? He doesn't sound all that far off the track and maybe meds can help him significantly. I thought his impulses towards being on his own and making his own way in the world quite normal and commendable, actually.

Subject: To you Gerry, OT, a personal note From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:32:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Geez Gerry, I can not expound here too greatly, seeing as how this is a public chat room but.........I did want to tell you that I am sorry for your loss, you will be in my thoughts and prayers. Take care, Love, Tonette

Subject: He's an adult, time to cut the apron strings From: Tonette To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:20:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And who is schizophrenic here? Both? You? Him? There's medication for that, I suggest you explore it. And there are lots of jobs in New Jersey. Good ones to boot. Sorry for your story but really, how bizarre can it get? Maybe he will 'mature out' of his mental illness but probably not. He needs meds, was he on any at all? And the real question your version, of what and why this happened, is this grounded solidly in reality? Your post raises more questions than answers. Good luck and fairy-tale goodspeed to you and your son. Tonette

Subject: Re: my son has run away From: B O R E D To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:02:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is exactly the kind of shit that makes people run away from EPO. Janet, get some professional help and turn off your computer for a month. Do you think this kind of post is helpful to the exiting premie public?

Subject: I can't believe this! From: Mili To: B O R E D Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:18:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this the kind of 'support' people get here? What kind of a place is this anyway???

Subject: Mili the church lady From: dgeri To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:25:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you wish to be blocked?

Subject: You already are From: dogdgei To: dgeri Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 00:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so why not have that much needed operation to remove the poker from up your ass

Subject: Re: Mili the church lady From: Mili To: dgeri Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 13:25:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couldn't care less. But if you think what these posters said to Janet was all right, you've got a serious problem in the humanity department.

Subject: Re: my son has run away From: Not Bored To: B O R E D Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:25:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I started reading this, but when I saw how long it was I decided to wait until my lunch break when I will have time to read it carefully. I have followed the stories of Janet's escapades with Knowledge and since with great interest and I now feel that I know her and her son. I've known two schizophrenics myself. I find these first hand accounts quite fascinating. Besides, Maharaji's becoming more and more boring. And it beats the back of a cereal box.

Subject: schizophrenics From: gerry To: Not Bored Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:45:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have had very little exposure to seriously mentally ill people (prior to reading Life's Grate, that is... hehe) but I do remember a guy from Texas, early twenties, who stayed a few days in a premie house in which I lived. It's difficult to describe his behavior, but he was definitely having some sort of a psychotic break soon after his 'knowledge' session. The only thing that would settle him down a little was to read passsages from the Bible to him. I guess the comfort of the familiar had some calming effect upon him. We called his family and they came and got him. It was one of the first 'drips' for me. Not only had 'Knowledge' not helped this fellow, but it seemed to exasperate his condition.

Subject: Ever notice this From: Gerry To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:36:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it just me or do the resident wharf mice really swarm over a person who posts here for the first time, like Michael Mclure? (Sheesh, another Michael Mc, what is this an IRA conspiracy?) The little fellas go a kinda nuts when they sense another person abandoning the listing wreckage of Captain Rawat's broken dreams, or should I say, "schemes." At first blush, it appears to be 'thread hijacking.' But, as usual, these things usually turn out to be excellent examples of premie vacuousness in vivid contrast to our own conviction of Rawat's duplicity. Now we have Mili starting threads. Hey Mili, piss off back to Life's Grate why don't you? Nobody wants to listen to your drivel here. And Roupell, get a life, pal.

Subject: This place has become.......... From: Tonette To: Gerry Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:15:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A premie forum spam avenue. Gad! We now feature front and center the likes of Catweasel, such a loving soul, David Roupell, aka Cerise and Ralwat's own very beloved and shining devotee Mili. They took lessons well from their master. The ins and outs of a 'gang rape' on exiting, newly exited and mending exited members of Ralwat's cult is a new art form to these spamming premies. A new agya. And they do it so very well. I think premies should be limited as to how much they can post here. After all, they have such a great life! There's other places to party if you know what I mean. Good luck Gerry. You couldn't pay me enough to do your job here. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: the Rawat gang's ridin' roughshod From: gerry To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:35:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah Tonette, I'm gettin' ready to round up the whole damn bunch and send 'em south of the border...

Subject: Giddy Up! YeeeeHaaaaaa! From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:58:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, it's another event time! Send them south, way south, like in the southern hemisphere. Soon enough it will be again branding time there in Amaroo. Time for the big roundup! If Ralwat didn't stun them with his biannual 'event' they might forget his message, you know, breathing, knowledge is truth, send me a check. These bucking bronchos here, these hot and bothered premies posting here need either a good branding or euthanisia. Yes, they would be more worthwhile as glue. Their Master is waiting. Hello Gerry, Love to you. Tonette

Subject: Question marks gone crazy From: email to hotboards To: Gerry Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:55:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ????? The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box. The software is repeating ? marks in the subject box.

Subject: Hey Gerry... From: Cynthia To: email to hotboards Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 19:46:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it Jack Nicolson in 'The Shining?' Oh, yeah, I did notice:) There are those among us who have never grown up. Cynth

Subject: So what is real? From: Mili To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 14:42:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now don't get me wrong - I am not advocating that everyone should drop acid in order to find out. But, I find this article by Alan Watts quite enlightening in pointing out how relative our sense of reality is with regard to the perceiver's frame of mind. A Psychedelic Experience - Fact or Fantasy? www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/watts2.htm

Subject: Grow up already! From: Tonette To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 12:44:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Smell your armpits or something. Touch it, see it, smell it, be it. How you can be so convouluted at this late date is beyond me. Try being yourself, without all your theories and philosphies. Your little game plan. Get real. Christ!

Subject: Re: Grow up already! From: Mili To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 02:56:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nothing wrong with my armpits. Really! :)

Subject: Physically human, your brain needs attention From: Tonette To: Mili Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:09:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on Mili, we all stink given enough time without a shower. Now what exactly happens to one's mind, the brain, neurologically if fed a simpleton diet of Ralwats intellect for an extended period? Your synapses are kinda firing, yes they are still alive, but they lack the juice to put two and two together. They are just not quite able to really communicate with each other. But that's a good thing, eh? Death to mind and as an aside, reason and doubt. Pathetic.

Subject: Re: Physically human, your heart needs attention From: Jane To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 22:28:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's not what you say about Maha Tonnette - you have never said anything about him that means anything. What disturbs the reader about you is the hallmark of viciousness in all your posts to harmless and polite people like Mili. Either you have a major commincation problem or you are a mean spirited woman with a joyless life. Your choice.

Subject: Really? And who should know about viciousness? From: Tonette To: Jane Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 10:12:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In fact, Jane, me thinks, you are snarling with a foam covered snout from your very words: I'D RATHER BE SIX FOOT UNDER THAN BE LIKE YOU TONETTE ugly mindset isn't the correct description - but it sure is close enuff. Do you ever smile? Listen, I don't consider Ralwat nor those that posture for him harmless. No indeed. There's been some real bad shit that happened because of Prem and those that enable him. No his cult is not harmless. Comprende'? So let's take the polite issue. Are you polite? Is Mili? And frankly, neither one of you makes much sense. You're pointless and so very immoral. It's quite poignant, from reading your posts, how desperate you are to hold on to the lifeline of a belief that is such an obvious con. Willing to go down with the ship along with the master, errr, captain is it? And it's people like you, in your fanaticism, that makes cults the danger that they are. Yes, you have every reason to be disturbed. I suggest you figure out why that is so.

Subject: and end up like you? From: Jane To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 00:49:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'D RATHER BE SIX FOOT UNDER THAN BE LIKE YOU TONETTE ugly mindset isn't the correct description - but it sure is close enuff. Do you ever smile?

Subject: Hey Jane, is that Jane Doe by any chance? From: Tonette To: Jane Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:22:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No reason for the hostility. No one is making you read here and all the ugly things and facts we expose about Maharaji. Chill already. If you are so upset by this I have a suggestion, several actually, Start saving now for that next great event in Amaroo land. Bookmark and dare not leave one of the only web sites for premies, Life's Great. Since you are so taken aback by me it can only mean you are not: Meditating enough Listening to enough music CD's once offered by Visions Watching enough videos Do all these things and for pete's sake find some real participation. The forum and the humorless people here will become just a bad dream. We're Maya anyway right? Hey if this world is maya and relationships and attachments and wealth ect. you know, just isn't the real thing, what exactly does that make you? Thanks for the laugh Jane. I wish you well. Good fucking luck. Tonette

Subject: . From: . To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 17:25:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .

Subject: What is real Mili... From: Cynthia To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:01:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, Watts wrote that in 1964. It also sounds like an editorial rather than anything wise or enlightening or, gawd forbid scientific. He sounds, well, stoned out on something. Each to his own I say, but don't make a mystical religion. Check out this link. It's about how much is now known about the brain. Hey, I took acid when I was a kid. I was lucky to get the good stuff. I haven't gone back to it in decades; LSD was a phase a fad. I know people who still indulge in mushrooms, count me out. Sometimes a religion. Either way, I never found any windows into cosmic or spiritual realities. Once the drug wore off it was back to freaking work! It felt good, my mind saw a lot of stuff but I never made it into a religion. The Brain www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/

Subject: Re: What is real Mili... From: Mili To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:54:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the link, Cynthia. This is an excerpt from Watts' autobiography: 'In all these contacts I began to feel that the only psychiatrists who had any solid information were such neurologists as David Rioch, of Walter Reed, and Karl Pribram, of Stanford. They could tell me things I didn't know and were the first to admit how little they knew, for they were realizing the odd fact that their brains were more intelligent than their minds or, to say the least, that the human nervous system was of such a high order of complexity that we were only just beginning to organize it in terms of conscious thought. I sat in on an intimate seminar with Pribram in which he explained in most careful detail how the brain is no mere reflector of the external world, but how its structure almost creates the forms and patterns that we see, selecting them from an immeasurable spectrum of vibrations as the hands of a harpist pluck chords and melodies from a spectrum of strings. For Karl Pribram is working on the most delicate epistemological puzzle: how the brain evokes a world which is simultaneously the world which it is in, and to wonder, therefore, whether the brain evokes the brain. Put it in metaphysical terms, psychological terms, physical terms, or neurological terms: it is always the same. How can we know what we know without knowing knowing?' Watts' Autobiography www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/wattsbio.htm

Subject: Re: So what is real? From: bill To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 16:30:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Greetings to Croatia and to it's son who is riding the wild wave of breath to enlightenment. Looking at the wide blue yonder and forward into hopeful evolution with our only restraints being those of our own creation or being the result of our misperception of things...... Except that the obstacle maker shows consiousness and independence from us and an unerring eye to make sure none are missed.... Which thereby defeats the hopes,and demands a reassesment,by those of the who have the idea that our own conciousness is where our obstacles lie. We do have room to grow certainly, and we are responsible for pushing to the fence, but the fence IS there, and Alan, if was still alive, and had the time, would eventualy have recognised the fence and charted his course to try to understand who the hell, and why, and what is the best way, the most productive way, to contend with the fence and oh hell, the librarian says the network is being shut down. Does my gibberish sound like I am on acid? Sorry it is so unreadable. You might get some fun posts out of 'so what is real'

Subject: Re: So what is real? From: Mili To: bill Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:56:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Get some fun posts? You mean better than what you just wrote? Wow! ...riding the wild wave of breath to enlightenment thanks. Loved it. :)

Subject: attachments From: Susan To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 12:17:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been getting a lot of emails with attachments from people I do not know. I just delete them for fear of viruses. Anyone else getting these? Last one was from Firelady.

Subject: Re: attachments From: AJW To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 12:58:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Susan, By the thread title, I thought this was going to be a "spiritual topic". I get these emails from time to time. People have also had them from me- or rather from my mailbox. They are caused by viruses which get into your address book. I'd say, never download any attachment you're slightly suspicious of. They usually are accompanied by a message that tries to be personal, but is also kind of vague, like, 'Hi, I just wanted to know what you thought of this.' Although the email is from someone you know, it doesn't quite sound like them.' Another thing, is that your address book for web based email, like Yahoo, or Hotmail, isn't actually on your computer, and therefore neither is the virus. But if you download something onto your hard disk, you could be downloading a different type of virus. There was one of these emails that was quite clever. It said something like, 'Help. I've infected you. Do a search on your C: drive for this file XXXX or whatever, and delete it. It is a virus.' Actually, it wasn't a virus, it was a system file. I found out by doing a search for the filename on the web, and got about 3 sites telling me about the phoney email. Yup, we've got to be careful. Hope all is well with you and yours, and thanks for your message below. Anth the fleeting illusory email virus.

Subject: Anger, desire, attachments From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 13:22:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I get them all the time, Susan. That's why I use a web-based email like Hotmail or Yahoo which prevents you from opening any email with a virus. The creepiest ones are those that look like they come from a friend (using a friend's name but look closer and you see it's different email address.)

Subject: Re: Anger, desire, attachments From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:17:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've received a few viral emails. I also use web-based email which has a virus scanner, but may not always be up to date. My machine gets excruciating slow if I keep any anti-virus programs, but I do download free demo programs and scan my system. There are also hoaxes. Just don't open any attachments. I get so much junk mail so I just delete it as it arrives... Download dot com download.com.com/3150-2239-0.html?tag=dir

Subject: Thoughts re: entrapment in googoo's cult From: michael mclure To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 19:10:50 (EDT) Email Address: m_mclure@hotmail.com Message: I would just like to make a few comments about my longterm involvement in the goo's scam. First just a bit of background about myself. I got k about 30 years ago in Melbourne Australia. I did live in the ashram for a short period of time but mostly would be regarded as a fringe premie due to my introverted nature and the discomfort I felt in the presence of the honchos/organisers of dlm/ev. I also wavered in my dedication to the practice of k, sometimes I was much more focused than others. And it wasn't till some time in 1998, due very much to the existence of EPO, that I was able to see what a scam it had all been and what an idiot I had been to believe in it for all those years. I feel that following such an amoral person for all that time had an unpleasant consequence in that I was influenced to adopt his view of the world. His ideas pushed me to behave as if I did not have a duty to society at large to try to make the world a better place. That it was part of the 'maya' and hence dangerous to be involved in. That the only useful work one could do was either for him or to disconnect oneself more from the world out there. His whole trip is just so negative. It's like your personal entropy grows the more that you involve yourself in this mad business of trying to detach yourself from the world. It has the opposite effect to what is promised i.e. an overall improvement of the quality of one's life. It seems the more you practise k, the more isolated you become, the more disatisfied you are and the less able you are to do anything about it. It's more a spiral than a loop, confining instead of expanding. I feel some compassion for those still stuck in his nasty little web. There but for the grace of EPO go I. However, I do have a problem with most of those who can still be apologists for the goo's rampant revisionism. How can anyone justify the lies that he has been coming out with lately? For them it seems that all is fair in love and war and supporting you gooroo! It is just more evidence of the damage he does to his followers. Thank you very much all you muchly dedicated exes who continue to devote your time and energy in maintaining the high quality of this forum. It feels like a duty to try and get through to as many pwk's and aspirants as possible. Michael

Subject: Welcome to the Blunderdome. From: AJW To: michael mclure Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 20:55:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Michael, Welcome to the madhouse. The cyberpurge room, home of the unbelievers. The regulars are a decent bunch of folk, several of whom I've had the pleasure of meeting personally. Occasionally we get insulted by the odd hate-filled premie, but other than that, it's a healthy forum of wit, wingeing and wisdom. Wall the West Wanth the Wankerchief.

Subject: I have to ask as well as expressing salutations From: Tonette To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:47:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Michael, Welcome. I read your innoculous post and was amazed by the premie replies you so strongly got. So, what was your reaction to Mili, Catweasel and Roupell? Did their take on things bother you? Make you wonder about your decision? After all, you invested 30 years into this scam. I would like to know. Did what they write in and around and to you make you wonder? You're right, this forum is a pubic service, so you speak. Many people have come here for the truth, for healing, for a kind ear. Some have met and become friends. The forum is dynamic, fluid and tuned into what has happened, is happening and might likely happen concerning Ralwat's cult. To say the least, it's never boring. So, your post was right on the money to me. I wish you well and hope that any tentacles of Ralwat's hold are amputated completely from your heart and mind. Take good care, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: Hi Tonette From: michael mclure To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 21:53:21 (EDT) Email Address: m_mclure@hotmail.com Message: Hi Tonette. My 'inoculous' post obviously sent all the m apologists into maha-denial! You can read my reaction to those who responded to me, but no, I was not phased by them. Why should I be? As you may recall, I said I left k 4 years ago after discovering EPO. After absorbing as much of that as I could, I probably spent some time in the wilderness, like most people here. But from then on, I feel that I am at last recovering from an almost terminal illness. I will never make the mistake of blindly following anyone else again. Since I left goober, I have had what I consider to be a healthy addiction to this forum. I just felt it was about time I joined in. Maybe its part of the healing process. As has been said many times before, a lot of the people who were into m are some of the best people I have ever met. It's not their fault that m is such a jerk! As far as I can understand we were successfully brainwashed at a very impressionable time in our lives. A lot of you guys here feel like part of my extended family. Thanks for your warm welcome. Regards, Michael

Subject: wonderful thread ! From: Loaf To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:33:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Down below (in response to Livia you said something great. i posted a reply which i have now slightly edited and dragged up top. Even though the words are a bit 'above' me, I wish I didnt know what cognitive, dissonance and entropy REALLY mean ! Anyway... to Livia you said : 'For me, practising k made me edgy and dissatisfied..isolated. Then I would sort of drift away for a while without letting go of the 'good' intention. Sooner or later some crisis would interfere sending me back into a more dedicated practice.I could never seem to understand that it was the practice of k that was the root of the problem!! I had been so well indoctrinated that I refused to admit the possibility. ' this paragraph has stunned me ! I have never seen so clearly before, the damage of Knowledge. I am Fucked !!! Eeeek.. I am so far off balance i dont even Want to try and straighten up.... I have grown accustomed to living in a bubble and am scared and reluctant and cling onto my 'warm feeling' like a cornered animal. How could I EVER let go of my only comfort ?? That we are here is living proof of how important other people are. Without encouragement, company and other good stuff, my perspective could well have been a defensive one. I really hear what you are saying, but I never thought I could let go... I am naturally scared of falling. Eeek I feel vulnerable ! Thanks for putting your finger on the spot ! Loaf under a blanket with fingers everywhere....repeat after me ...' this isnt amaroo, this isnt amaroo'

Subject: Thanks, Loaf. LOL(nt) From: michael mclure To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 21:15:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: According to uncle Sigmund From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:20:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....religion does nothing more than displace an already throbbing anxiety into a new arena! Prostrate before those those mighty lotus feet and Daddy will leave you and your dirty secret alone forever. I sort of agree with him these days. There's so much to it though, so many possibilities. Love from Bryn.

Subject: Thoughts re: entropy From: Thorin To: michael mclure Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 07:46:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael, Thanks for that very thoughtful post. There is much in your post that I find co-incides with my own experience. In particular you said: His whole trip is just so negative. It's like your personal entropy grows the more that you involve yourself in this mad business of trying to detach yourself from the world. It has the opposite effect to what is promised i.e. an overall improvement of the quality of one's life. It seems the more you practise k, the more isolated you become, the more disatisfied you are and the less able you are to do anything about it. It's more a spiral than a loop, confining instead of expanding. This entropic tendancy of Maharaji's belief system is one I think we are all becoming more and more aware of. It seems that over the last 30 years or so (since Maharaji first came to the West, but probably can be traced to earlier times than this) the belief system of Maharaji is fast becoming fosilised in much the same way that most religions have become. From some John David Garcia reading I have been doing: Religions may seek to predict and control the mind by not allowing the propagation of any information which is contrary to its model of the universe. This happened under Christianity and Islam. However, the most insidious and destructive aspect of religion is that it can make its adherents totally obsessed with predicting and controlling their own thoughts to the exclusion of objective reality. In the process they cease to invent and be objectively creative. Instead they become obsessed with what they call 'the spiritual life.' We have seen this happen in our own time to India, Tibet, the Islamic countries, and, to a much lesser extent, Spain. Spain is now reversing its mystical specialization as it becomes integrated with the rest of Europe. This is discussed in more detail in the next chapter. In another time, through the process of natural selection, these societies would be brutally and ruthlessly replaced by less mystically specialized and more technologically advanced societies, as has happened thousands of times in the past. In fact this is happening to Tibet now in a destructive manner as Chinese Communism (a secular religion) replaces all the ancient Buddhist traditions, not all of which were destructive. The implications of religion and mysticism in the modern world are discussed in Chapter 4. For now, we merely note that religion has been a common key component of human society and mental evolution for at least 100,000 years. At the same time, it has been the main repository of both ethics and entropy for the human race. This paradox is due to the fact that religion is a manifestation of subjective ethics, which may manifest itself in an objectively valid ethical code. Elsewhere John David Garcia says: Superstition and ritual are practiced because they make their practitioners happy by conforming to the prejudices and unquestioning beliefs of a tightly knit group which approves of this behavior; they then have a very strong sense of belonging and community. Loneliness seems to be the greatest source of human unhappiness. To be highly ethical in a superstitious society is to be a creative, unbelieving member of a tiny minority, which is condemned, and often persecuted and even killed, by the vast superstitious majority. The ethical persons are a minute, unorganized minority, which is sparsely distributed among the superstitious majority in all nations; this is a very lonely type of existence. Those who see the contradictions and the hypocrisy of the majority religions, often compensate for it by forming new, quasi religions of their own, such as the organized militant atheists under Madelyn Murray, the socialists under Marxist ideology, or the many, so called, 'cults' of the minority religions such as the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, the Scientologists, and all minor sects of mainstream religions. All of these persons have substituted one set of superstitions for another, but they have compensated for their loneliness by forming another religion which gives them a sense of belonging, community and 'spirituality'. I am just beginning to understand the context of the Maharaji Scam. It, seems, to be an evolutionary process, not necessarily purposeful, where Darwinism has been turned on its head - the survival of the weakest. Look forward to hearing from you again. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Thoughts re: entropy From: michael mclure To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 22:36:24 (EDT) Email Address: m_mclure@hotmail.com Message: Hi Thoren. I'm sure a lot of us got involved in m at least partly because it enabled us to be part of a larger group, especially a group with such high ideals (well they were then). I was a serious devotee of nightly satsang in my comunity. Even though a lot of it was pretty ordinary, there was always someone who said something which made it all seem worthwhile. It certainly reinforced my commitment. It's a pity for m that his narcissism forced him into denying anyone else the opportunity to express themselves. Otherwise, the entropic tendency might have taken a lot longer to be realized! Interesting quotes you have provided. I was indoctrinated into Catholicism at a very early age. I believe this had something to do with my falling for this newage cult later on in life. I was already primed if you like. The only good outcome I can see is that I will never fall for another religion ever again! Give me the ethical minority any time :-). 'The survival of the weakest'. Yes it seems those are the people who are the most vulnerable to scammers like m. I know it was a great comfort to me at the time, having a safe place to hide from the big bad ugly world outside! There could be some evolutionary purpose to it as in the 'two steps forward one step backward' theory. Thanks for your reply. Regards, Michael

Subject: Entropy...a definition????e: entropy From: Kelly To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:43:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd just like to know what you mean by ' entropy' and more than that....how you justify it...and what your friends have to sAY ABOUT IT?? HAVING A PROBLEM WITH MY PERSONAL ENTROPY. I'm serious about this having spent many hours with the dictionaries!!! Love Kelly

Subject: Re: Entropy...a definition????e: entropy From: Thorin To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 16:57:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Kelly LOL :) I was using entropy in a very very loose sense. You rumbled me. Entropy is very much concerned with scientific and mathematical study and is concerned with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The best definition I can find is 'Thermal entropy is a measure of the amount of thermal energy in a closed system that is not available to do work'. The context I was using it was, I believe, the same as in Michael's post above. That is in a 'closed system' such as Maharaji's cult the creativity we have (thermal energy) becomes dissipated (flat-lined as Livia has spoken about before) in such a way that it is diluted to take on the characteristic of the cult. No creativity is actually lost when the cult is viewed as whole, but individuals forming part of that cult find that their world-view, their creativity, whatever, becomes 'averaged' out to that of the cult. A painful experience creating heaps of cognitive dissonance. Actually the overall sum of creativity in the cult is reduced through the declining numbers of the cult as individuals leave in their droves. Since leaving the cult I have found that my thought processes have taken on a stonger rigour, greater clarity has come, what with the increased inner happiness, deeper understanding of my fellow humans - hey even love. Why is this? My use (and Michael's use also?) of the concept of entropy is perhaps simply a tool to describe a process that occurs to individuals immersed in a cult - it does not stand up to mathematical scrutiny. Maybe it does? Clear as mud eh? :) I am no mathematician, I have a friend who is and he will probably tear me to pieces when he reads the above! Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Entropy...a definition????e: entropy From: michael mclure To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 22:53:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, I very much liked your interpretation of my use of entropy. If you are not a social scientist, you are missing your true calling :-). Mine was much more pedestrian: 'in some contexts interpreted as a measure of the degree of disorder or randomness in the system'. The system being me and the disorder feeling very real. Regards, Michael

Subject: !998? That's 5 years ago this year!;) From: Catweasel To: michael mclure Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 04:19:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I find your description of your journey quite interesting. I have never felt any need to be separate to'the world' and found that to be a profoundly religous position based on traditional Hindi belief structure. I too have been around for 30 years but I cant say I ever have felt the need to retreat from 'the world' or reality.In fact I have done exactly the opposite for the last 30 years. How long since you actually were in contact with any people with K? A long time me thinks. Tell me Michael, do you believe what you read in the TRUTH newspaper, or 'People/Pix' . Perhaps Andrew Bolt in the Herald-Sun? You need to get out more..... Want a cup of coffee with me? I'll be in Melbourne next week........

Subject: Re: !998? That's 5 years ago this year!;) From: michael mclure To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:12:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat err...Derek I am glad you were interested in my journey. I am also happy to see you in full premie revisionist mode as usual. Here you go again trying to separate the googoo from his obviously Hindu traditions. By continuing to defend the indefensible here, all you do is show me how amoral you are, just like the goo. No, I don't usually believe what I read in sensationalist publications, but the point is I did believe all that crap that m told me. Now I admit to my gullibility and I am glad I am finally getting over it. Sure I'll have a coffee with you. Send me an email Regards, Michael

Subject: Re: !998? That's 5 years ago this year!;) From: Catweasel To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:36:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael let me assure you of one thing. Who-ever told you I am Derek is seriously deluded. I have nothing in common with Derek other than the experience of Knowledge. The truth of the matter here is that when you first became involved ,as has been previously stated the Indian Mahatma's introduced the agenda here in Oz.To quote something M said in Melbourne back in the mid nineties; 'I asked people to bring the seed of Knowledge to the west.The problem is they brought the whole bloody garden!' I'll be in contact. Just so you and anyone else who wishes to pin the tail on Derek realises,it is libellous to attribute statements and activities to an individual if that person is not in fact the person being nominated.(I'm telling you this in a friendly fashion)

Subject: Re: !998? That's 5 years ago this year!;) From: michael mclure To: Catweasel Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 20:48:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael let me assure you of one thing. Who-ever told you I am Derek is seriously deluded. I have nothing in common with Derek other than the experience of Knowledge I'm sorry Cat but it's not good enough. By all means get in touch. Hell, you may even know me. The Australian premie community is relatively small and getting smaller. But until you drop your disguise, I'll call you whatever I like! The truth of the matter here is that when you first became involved ,as has been previously stated the Indian Mahatma's introduced the agenda here in Oz.To quote something M said in Melbourne back in the mid nineties; 'I asked people to bring the seed of Knowledge to the west.The problem is they brought the whole bloody garden!' Once again, Cat, I'm sorry that your master's revisionism wont work on me like it obviously has on you. I was playing his game long enough to have been through many of his attempts to deny his past. It wont wash with me. He is a complete gutless wonder. And from your history on this and earlier forums, I would put you in a similar category. I'll be in contact. Just so you and anyone else who wishes to pin the tail on Derek realises,it is libellous to attribute statements and activities to an individual if that person is not in fact the person being nominated.(I'm telling you this in a friendly fashion) Cat, I look forward to a more personal contact, but I've seen enough of you already to know your friendliness is as superficial as your master's. Oh, and by the way, feel free to sue Regards, Michael

Subject: Fine by me From: Cat To: michael mclure Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 05:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let me translate. Lr Derek may sue you. Not me. And actually dont give a rat's what you think of me.If your shallow enough to be duped by this lot more fool you. I'm not worried about your opinion and I guess we will catch up. You may well be very surprised.

Subject: Cat... From: SleuthDoc To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 06:48:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: next time you talk to this phoney Monkey... call him Eddie... see what happens. :)

Subject: Re: Cat... From: Cat To: SleuthDoc Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 07:57:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahhhhhhhh as in the Clampett, erstwhile friend of the Bender? Smelled like that to me but I dare not say for fear of being rejected by my Bro's and Sis's here!I have a feeling this little banana has never set foot in the home of the Demons....

Subject: :):):):):) From: :):):):):) To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:00:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :):):):):)

Subject: Excuse me? From: Richard To: Catweasel Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 12:38:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked people to bring the seed of Knowledge to the west. The problem is they brought the whole bloody garden! Well who was that prancing around in his Krishna regalia well into the 80's? And who had his 'students' line up to kiss his feet recently and sing arti? And who recently said You can't come home without the Master and Never doubt the purity of the Master? Kindly overlook my ignorance as I'm just a burnt out old hippie that never got it. Please enlighten me. Richard

Subject: Re: Excuse me? From: Cat To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 16:31:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ok I will

Subject: They were simple questions, Cat. From: Richard To: Cat Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 22:15:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your only answer was your arrogant smugness. Varily I say unto thee, you surely must be the living perfect student of the Master as you resemble him in word and deed. I made an exception to my rule of not attempting conversation with pwks and now I remember why. There's nobody there.

Subject: Your arithmetic skills are astonishing! From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 04:34:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 2002 - 1998 = 5 Nice one Cat! BTW, you know damn well Maharaji has spent the last 30 years saying you can't find true happiness in this world, and much of the time saying that this world is an illusion. You can hardly blame someone who actually listened to what he says, can you? John

Subject: But John, it's true! From: Mili To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 05:04:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any happiness and satisfaction that you can derive from this world is fleeting, it's transitory. We all know that. What Maharaji has been saying is that if you can derive your happiness from your existence itself, from just being alive and being conscious of it, that's cool. It doesn't stop you from enjoying everything else though. Why should it? In fact, everything else is so much fun that way because you do not have unrealistic expectations of it then. :)

Subject: Re: But John, it's true! From: Bolly Shri To: Mili Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 09:50:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili That is the saddest thing, hapiness? Living your life interwoven with what is happening in the world is genuinely fullfilling. The gooroo line about being detached because it's all unreal leaves people like blank spaces unconnected to life. Go on commit to living it not empty @happiness dependent on mass rallys' of gopis Love Bolly

Subject: and where does the guru come in From: ex-aspirant To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 18:16:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Milli, So the guru told you this, and now the only thing you have to do is show appreciation (time and $$$$$$$$) for the rest of your life. I am a teacher, and I go the extra mile for my students. I never expect appreciation; I just do what I think is right. Why does M need so much gratitude????? I suppose if he was really the Lord and Creator he would deserve gratitude.......

Subject: Re: this world is fleeting From: AV To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 09:44:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But Mili, WE ARE part of the fleeting, WE come and go also. Our expections can be unrealistic about anything on any level, incl. K So what is existence itself if it isn't being part of this world? where else do you live? Pluto?, Mars? Why divide your experiences between 'existence' as a seperate conception, and everything else you do from day to day? if you sit down to enjoy a coffee and a bagel, is that being beguiled by a transitory satisfaction , or being conscious of your existence. why divide? why think this way? Where would your awareness be in a traffic wreck, in the world or in existence itself, would you even have time to think about that? How can you derive happiness from existence itself if you create a division in your mind about the place in which existence takes place? Do children playing have this problem?

Subject: Re: this world is fleeting From: Mili To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 09:55:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, I don't have a problem with it! :) It's like a cinema show. You just enjoy the movie, that's all. It can be gripping at times, sure. But that doesn't mean that it's real.

Subject: What if you aren't enjoying the movie From: PatD To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:27:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...like you're being shot at,ripped off,starved out,flooded up a tree,gassed by a mad dictator,dying of cancer,in a wheelchair,raped....I used to think like you & was rather hurt when an old friend said to me ....'you used to be so smug but you aren't anymore'. I never knew I was smug;it's a condition,like bad breath,that everyone else can see apart from oneself. Funny thing is,we had this conversation when we were both premies. He's still a premie & I'm not. It takes different people different ways,maybe you've just got to work on the 'understanding' more.

Subject: Mili, this is the problem you have From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:02:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, I don't have a problem with it! :) It's like a cinema show. You just enjoy the movie, that's all. It can be gripping at times, sure. But that doesn't mean that it's real. --- Mili, As long as you believe this world isn't real, then although you can enjoy it, like watching a movie, you can never be a part of it. You will always be separated from all the real things that happen, and although you currently think that's OK, there will come a time when you will grieve for all the things you missed because you didn't think they were really real. Mili, we do know what we are talking about because we've been where you are. Don't leave it too long to come back to reality. John.

Subject: Well, consider this then From: Mili To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:10:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The world is as real as it gets, John. I enjoy it and I don't feel I am losing out on anything. Was I complaining? The thing is, when you leave yourself out of the picture you are missing out on a very important part. And Knowledge can help you to understand who you really are. I happen to find some value in that.

Subject: Re: Well, consider this then too From: janet To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 21:12:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mili, I will grant you that before Knowledge, I did indeed experience life as 'everything out there' being told to me as being more important than me, and something to be chased after and somehow possessed. I also experienced myself, but as separate, apart, not belonging. And for that, I mostly felt tears, not understood, hopeless, and isolated. I will grant you that Knowledge took all that exterior chasing and moved it off, far away, and gave me something to use to get with myself and get some restoration out of--and it gave me new eyes with which to see the world and people and life. But it then took advantage of that newly opened state to co-opt me into yet a new realm of chasing and isolation. The premie world. And it took me 27 years to get the help of these people here, at EPO, to rid myself and get out of THAT false gestalt. It does not automatically follow that out of the new awareness, should come money to the guy who revealed it to me, or planning my entire life around the next time he says he'll let me see him, or spending one end of the year to the other financially trying to recover form the impossible expense of the cost of getting to a festival, or sitting feeling lonely and left out if I can't get there... it should not lead to my walling out other people, especially those who brought me into the world and whom I brought in turn, with brainwashed , triggered jargon that renders person to person communion nonexistent. It should not lead to years and years of walking thru the world, acting, talking and behaving as if I am better than everyone I see around me, alienating them and alienating myself from them. It should not lead to regarding everything around me as poison, disdain for money, possessions, career, caring about how the world is, and does, and goes. It should not lead to treating ordinary things phobically, as if 'things' had some power to stain me, infect me, damage me, by my moving among them and touching them. Maharaji demands that his sheets and towels be washed 5 times before they are fit for him to touch again! That's sick!What kind of compulsive disorder is THAT? Not wearing shoes in past the door. Not touching meat. Not listening to the radio, the TV, movies, everything we were immediately propagandized not to go near, 'back in the day'. How come it was not OK then, but it suddenly became OK later?? And how come HE was always exempt from the rules from the start? isn't Knowledge supposed to be changeless and incorruptible? IF it is, how could any of those forbidden things matter to it? How could they matter one year and not matter the following? If this thing is inside of everybody, how can you countenance treating some people acceptingly, and some people terribly? PRemies, do, Mili. Witness the 'trolls' who come here and sabotage our discussions! And if the twisted logic is that people who know this thing inside them are somehow superior to people who are ignorant of it, then we, here, we are all people who are not ignorant. We have all been shown. We Know It. So how to follow with the terrible treatment? The thing itself is the thing to listen to. Not maharaji. Not the pwk's.not the trolls. listen to self, inside. IF this thing is it, or the center of it, or the source of it, or whatever, then It is to be listend to and counseled by. If this thing is so powerful that it is incorruptible, and it is with everyone, then all the rest of this effort, whether it's effort to chase something or to run away from something, to deny something or to try madly to create and declare something--it's all quite needless. This are. WE are. It is. words like real or unreal become red herrings. why use them? why try to put something there when something already occupies it? Isn't everyone's life valid? Isn't everyone's perception of life valid? why be a busybody, running around trying to tell and get everyone else to do what you want them to, when they are already doing something just fine now???? what is this compulsion to change them? what's wrong with them the way they are? life isn't a movie. Mili. Life is what's happening. It's here. There isn't anything else happening BUT it. It might be funny or poignant to be able to view it as if it WERE a movie, and to go and write one and produce it, to let others see it as you saw it--but the people who come to sit and watch the movie have lives that are not the movie! It is not a movie when you're groaning in labor. It is not a movie when you are sitting with your friend/wife/parent in a bed, watching them waste away with cancer. If you feel like it is, then classically, you're in a state of dissociation, which is never known to be healthy. The con, the lie, the racket, is that you owe anyone for this, Mili. You no more owe something to Rawat than you owe someone for showing you how to whistle, or how to tie your shoes, or how to ride a bike, or how to read. It was already there, and someone clued you in. Period. All the rest of the con that came after, is just as irrelevant as was the attempt before to make you chase after the world and not stay with your true self. The thing is what it is. It doesnt care. And if you care, you can only care for your self. That's not saying, be selfish. It's saying, be where you want. But telling others to be what you want them to be is specious. It's annoying. It's codependent as hell. Like their being something or not is supposed to affect how your life is. The only life you can do something with is your own. And it is quite salutory to decide to stop the whole Rawat/ PRemie/Knowledge Lite merry go round and methodically deconstruct and get rid of everything and anything in it that life lets you know is worthless. IF your life is a movie now, Mili, then for you, I wish for you something to happen that carries you up and out of it, into something that most stunningly isn't a movie, and ends that feeling for you forever. Because it isn't a movie until it's over. And by then, you can't do anything to change it.

Subject: Re: Well, consider this then too From: Mili To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 08:30:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Sounds to me like you made it into a religion at some point, with Maharaji as the Pope and the festivals as pilgrimages. It doesn't have to be a bad thing in itself, but I try to avoid being involved in it as a ritual and stick to what I feel is the core experience that I get from practicing K. I try to reach for it whenever I feel the need. An inner fulfillment and a deeper appreciation of life. It's available any time and any day, not only on special ocassions. I don't feel that the practice of K has alienated me from friends, family, other people or life in general. Actually, it's quite the opposite case. I've found that my self-esteem has increased over the years. I feel more like a genuine person with a first-hand experience of life and a perspective that is uniquely my own. I also feel that I have something to offer in terms of love and genuine compassion. And no, I am not doing PR here - just trying to be as candid as I can. In any case, your points are taken. And if you've shed any habits or behavior around M and K that you didn't feel comfortable with, or have felt to be detrimental to you in the long run, well good for you! We all need to find our own way and our own niche in life. I don't think there is any general rule. Mili

Subject: Re: Well, consider this then too From: Livia To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:34:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was beautiful, just beautiful, and stunningly well said. Goes well with some of the other amazing stuff that's been said here in the last few days by Michael McClure, Loaf, Chuck, Anth, Brian, Vicki and others. It must be something in the air. I'm speechless. Love Liv

Subject: Re: Well, consider this then too From: AV To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 06:14:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: f******g mind blowing post J. .....It should not lead to treating ordinary things phobically, as if 'things' had some power to stain me, infect me, damage me, by my moving among them and touching them. ..... What is the mechanism by which practising what is held to be the very source of life itself can engender such fear of the day to day world around us. Does this happen to recent pwks, or only those that went thru' the 'Lord of the Universe' phase, like so many of us here? Absolutely mind blowing J. really...

Subject: GREAT POST JANET-THANKS. NT From: Hal To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 03:25:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's not what you said, Mili From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 13:46:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You weren't talking about leaving yourself in or out of the picture. You quite clearly said the world wasn't real. That thought is embedded in your mind, and no matter how much you say you enjoy the world, you are incapable of taking it seriously. This is the problem you have. John.

Subject: Re: That's not what you said, Mili From: Mili To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 14:25:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's much more fun when you take it all with a pinch of salt, John. Believe me, it is. :)

Subject: No, believe me instead From: JHB To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 14:35:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's much more fun when you take it all with a pinch of salt, John. Believe me, it is. :) --- Mili, It's much more fulfilling when you take it seriously. Believe me, it really is. I know because I tried it your way for far too long. John.

Subject: What utter shite Mili. From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 08:25:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mili, You say any happiness I derive from this world is fleeting and transitory, and I should derive it from my existence itself. This is total bollocks. Did you read it on the back of a box of Indian incense? So, instead of getting my happiness from my children (26 years so far), my wife (32 years so far), my friends (50 years so far), nature (14 billion years so far), Art, (500,000 years) Music (5,000,000 years if you count the birds singing, which I do), Food, laughter, and all the other wonderful things in life, I should be sitting on my fat arse poking myself in the eyes. Ad's on the TV are fleeting Mili, not the simple joy of being a human being. That lasts all your life. It's sad that you can't see what a corner you've painted yourself into, being a premie. Maybe it's time to grow up Mili. Anth the fleeting and transitory illusion.

Subject: The simple joy of being a human being From: Mili To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 08:41:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's exactly what I'm talking about too, Anth. We do agree on something, at least. Don't you realize that all that which you've enumerated wouldn't mean a thing if you weren't alive and breathing? Give some credit to that - that's all I am saying.

Subject: Re: The simple joy of being a human being... From: Chuck S. To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:08:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Before I recieved Knowledge, I already knew about the "simple joy of being a human being." I already knew that the breath was important (I was injured in a serious accident, crushed under two tons of steel beams, with blood pouring out of my mouth; I didn't think my next breath was comming). A brush with death can really show you what is important to you. Before I recieved K, I already knew that life was temporary. I knew that I enjoyed breathing (as opposed to NOT). Maharaji's message was simple, and I found the techniques helpful. My brush with death made me want to live more of my life focused on the present, not always lost in my thoughts somewhere, not noticeing what was happening around me. To some extent, the techniques helped train my mind to do that. The techiques, however, are common yoga techniques, freely available from a variety of sources. They can work with or without a "Master", for those who find yoga appealing. There are appealing things in Maharaji's messages, but unfortunately there is also a lot of self-serving ideas being instilled, too. The whole guru experience is about taking experiences and feelings that anyone can feel, and atributing them to the guru. You open the door to let in the good stuff, and gently, quietly, unknown to you, the artificial feeling of dependency on the guru, and the paranoia it brings, also slips in through the door, like a cat silently running in between your legs unnoticed, when you open that door to your heart to let in the Good. I've seen several of your websites, Mili. Very artistic, beautiful, very poetical. All about feelings. Feelings are fine. But your rational, thinking mind is also a part of you. You have both for a reason, and don't need to ingore one in order to embrace and enjoy the other. So many of the "Good" things in Maharaji's messages are free and abundantly available from many sources, without Maharaji's strings attached. I can relate to a lot of the feelings you describe, but I also know that Maharaji doesn't have a copyright on them, unless you BELIEVE that he does. If you believe that he does, then that belief becomes "real" for you, but that doesn't make it actually so. Life and the world are transitory, but they are also as "real" as it gets, while you are here. If you find happiness in just simply "being", fine. Sounds good to me! But does it necessarily follow, that the world is a dangerous enemy to that feeling? Be honest. On the one hand, Maharaji says, enjoy life, enjoy the things of this world, but on the other hand, he says, BUT DON'T LOOK FOR YOUR HAPPINESS THERE. Look within. Look to HIM. He and your happiness are one. His double message is, enjoy this life, but it's also a spider web, a fishnet. You need him to "save" you from it. The only reason for talking about the world as "Maya, which is waiting to eat you for breakfast, lunch and dinner", is to create paranoia and fear, and a dependency on the guru to "save" you from that. You can still have the good feelings without the fear and paranoia. Without the Master's collar around your neck, you can share love with many people, and still enjoy life. We all had "That Understanding" at one time. Our understaning has just grown more, to encompass a larger picture, without having to exclude anything. It's a more complete and honest picture, that doesn't need excuses, secrets, or instructions to "Consider this, but not THAT". It's a picture where you can honor not JUST your feelings, but also your intellect, your reasoning mind, your WHOLE self, without having to sacrifice your honesty or integrity. Maharaji doesn't have a copyright on happiness or knowing yourself. He does have a lot of money, expensive lawyers, a lot of secrets to hide, and a problem with answering questions. Even questions from people who love him. Are you familiar with the writtings of Fakir Chand? I was very moved by his honesty, and some of the things he said about Gurus and duality.

Subject: ***Best of Forum*** From: Vicki To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 10:16:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The simple joy of being a human being... From: Livia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:36:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck that was just beautiful. You are one wonderful writer - fabulous quality, fabulous content. Keep 'em coming. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The simple joy of being a human being... From: Cynthia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 16:32:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Chuck, Well you wrote another keeper, IMO. This particular bit rang true: You can still have the good feelings without the fear and paranoia. Without the Master's collar around your neck, you can share love with many people, and still enjoy life. Sometimes I feel myself doing the techniques naturally. I never sit down formally at a given time. Lately when I am going to sleep I see bright light just by closing my eyes in the dark. It's quite nice. I don't know why they're there, likely some brain thing If it's there I look at it and never think about Maharaji anymore nor of the time when I saw that light at a little age during nasty doings. I like to push my tongue back it helps me concentrate and there's no magic no taste. I never could push it very far back I've wrecked my TMJ trying. Sometimes it helps me to avoid arguments, too:) It's also great (this may be an 'ole wives tale) for peeling onions--avoids the teary and burning eyes. My husband snores so I wear earplugs. It's not exactly a technique but it helps me read over the chainsaw in bed with me. I hear the rhythms of my body. It's nice too. No Maharaji. All without Maharaji. I don't ritualize anything, I figure hell, if they serve any purpose after life in the cult and worshiping Prem Rawat, why not just let it happen? This is recent. No juju waawaa. Again, thanks for your writings Chuck, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks Chuck S, beautifully put ..[nt] From: Thorin To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:13:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's incredible Mili. From: AJW To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 09:34:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's amazing Mili. You mean if I was like, dead, I wouldn't be able to go on the internet, or go fishing or anything. Shit. I wish someone had told me that before. Maybe I should check the cult out again, in view of the incredible insights on life and death you obviously get. I thought being dead was just like having a cold or something. I never realised you stopped breathing and moving. Anth, life is full of surprises.

Subject: A big LOL, Anth! From: Richard To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:50:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hilarious! Good to have you back with more power than ever before so I can have a good belly laugh with my morning cuppa tea. Richard, laughter is the best antivenom

Subject: yea but Mill From: Doc joining his mates To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 05:40:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you look at at all John's posts, - I regularly browse through the 17 thousand of them on a daily basis - you'll see that the only perceived currency to his argument is when he takes Maharaji's words VERBATIM. Like for instance, when M said stuff like 'Guru Maharaji will bring Full Creme Cornetto to this whole world.' Well, in JHB's mind that meant that GM was going to give everyone alive on planet earth a Full Creme Cornetto. Personally! And if that didn't happen...well, he would be a failure or a lying cad. ahem.... I agree with Cat mr mcLure, your post just sounded like you'd read a few dozen posts here and picked up on the tailwind of a brain fart, without any personal experience of it. I wouldn't bother.

Subject: Re: yea but Mill From: michael mclure To: Doc joining his mates Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 21:44:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey noname Thank's for your compliments and deep insight. Take your own advice and don't bother! Regards, Michael

Subject: I don't get it Doc. From: AJW To: Doc joining his mates Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 08:31:32 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Doc, When Rawat said he'd come with more power than Jesus, and more power than Krishna, and he was going to establish the kingdom of Heaven on Earth, and the lion would lay down with the lamb, and there would be no more 'bullet guns', what did this fleeting, transitory, illusory being really mean, sitting there in his Krishna crown, having us all sing Arti to him? If we didn't take it literally, how were we supposed to take it? Explain please? Anth, with more power than ever before.

Subject: Re: I don't get it Doc. From: Doc To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:10:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, I'm too busy laughing at your post above to answer that properly. Ahh, truly good humour cuts through all illusionary barriers! Now, where were we? Oh ....yea. Well, to be honest, I think it was a 12 year old master getting a little carried away with enthusiasm and inspiration, perhaps not realising that the big bad world out there wasn't about to go.. 'Oh, ok, let's all listen to this kid and learn about this inner bliss stuff.' I agree, he was pretty bloody full on in those days. But gracious, you should have heard me mouthing off in Acton town hall in 1972. Hey, you probably did! Gotta give him points for total commitment and belief in the Special K though. I think that's the bottom line. He's always sold the thing big time. Just so happens it's free of coinage.

Subject: Errr...Doc. From: AJW To: Doc Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 11:36:41 (EDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: Hi Doc, I was certainly there, giving it 'God is Great, but Greater is Guru. (Because he reveals God), along with the best of them. Maybe you were there listening to it. Do we know each other? Email me if you feel like a chat and want to conceal your identity. I promise not to tell. Anyway- back to the gist of our conversation. So what you're saying Doc, is, maybe he got it a bit wrong when he was a 12 year old Perfect Master. Bearing that in mind, do you think it's possible he may still be getting a bit wrong now he's a 43 year old Perfect Master? And on the subject of his commitment and belief. Don't you think that this has a bit of payback for him on the material, as well as the 'spiritual level'? Shit Doc, I think I'd be committed to telling everyone the Universe was on the back of a turtle and I was the only one who knew 'Turtle Talk', if the result was houses, servants, luxury cars, helicopters, private jets, and loads of georgous dumb devotess lining to shag me. Wouldn't you? Take it easy. Anth the Turtle.

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Doc To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 00:49:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, I guess I know you and Dot through Glen and from posts you've made over the years. I'm happy to email and have no problen with my identity being known. Regarding the 12 year old and his shouting about K and M. No I don't see that being replicated in his forties. Mind you he's still very very strident about the power and glory of Knowledge, almost to the point one sometimes feels like saying..'Cool it M!' But no, he knows very well now how much the Western mindset can tolerate and so I doubt you'll hear him claiming to be the saviour of mankind or a 'messiah' or anything like that. After all, titles don't mean shit, look at the Queen and Mr President Bush! But you know the way M has always been with his message, totally uncompromising. I see his remarks when young a bit like us lot selling the benefits of LSD, we used to believe so strongly in its powers of perception that we'd basically tell people.. 'Hey, if you don't have at least three trips, well, you aren't even alive!' It looks silly now, but by golly did we believe it then. And in a funny kind of a way, I think...no, I won't go there :) I'm sure you're not really fooled by cars, houses, boats, planes and servants? Oh my, goodness no, I was brought up with all that and it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to anybody's happiness. In fact the reason I chose to become a penniless hippie was because there were many more happy people in that crowd. Anyone who thinks M gets off on some kind of material power trip because he has a lot of energy around him, well, I don't think they remember that he has an energy all of his own and it makes people feel fantastic to be around him. You know, it's the same reason your friends like to be around you when you're on top form - simple energetic human dynamics.

Subject: Hang on a minute pal... From: AJW To: Doc Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 11:08:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doc, You're talking about what he used to get up to when he was 12. Doesn't he still do the same thing. I mean, he had a couple of people line up to kiss his feet in Amaroo recently didn't he? And he still gets dressed up as Lord Krishna when he's in India doesn't he? And doesn't he (and you) believe he's the living Perfect Master? (That's the impression I get reading the latest cult glossy leaflet)? So, he does seem to be replicating his delusions of grandeur in his 40s after all. So it seems he hasn't grown up much at all really- and by the sounds of it, neither have you. I don't know what you mean when you say, 'Presumably I'm not fooled by the house and cars etc?' Are you telling me they're just made of polysstyrene, and the house is painted on a big billboard, and Rawat really lives the life of an ascetic in a little hut out the back? Anth the cardboard cutout

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: janet To: Doc Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 09:36:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: doc, i must take sharp difference with your attempt to get this one past us: 'I'm sure you're not really fooled by cars, houses, boats, planes and servants? Oh my, goodness no, I was brought up with all that and it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to anybody's happiness.' The difference is, in the case of every valid dynasty where the members can indeed raise their heirs with the fittings of such wealth, The wealth that made all the accoutrements possible to purchase came from tangible, concrete, measurable, benficial products and actions that society valued highly and paid for in return for a demonstrable advantage. Guarding the realm in times of peril. Making armaments. Procuring supplies. Creating items desired, of utility or beauty. Providing transportation. Growing food or livestock.Exacting medicine and healing. Building- homes, fortresses, businesses, banks, bridges, roads, engines. Fuel. Men have spotted the uses and desirablilty of an incredible number of tangible, needful,revolutionary or basic things they can provide the rest of the race, and gotten fabulously wealthy by developing and providing and contributing them to civilization. That is valid wealth. There was effort exerted. There was invention, revolution, impact upon the course of history and lives changed forever.There was a tangible benefit rendered that not only bettered the lives of humans, but other life as well. They didn't hold out their hands and ask for money just because they wanted some,in return for nothing! When that was done, it was termed robbery. terrorizing. maharaji does. he wants money because he wants money. he has nothing to give for it, nothing to render, nothing to trade. he just wants some, and he wants yours. so he can get all those things everyone else has validly provided civilization and earned the power to purchase. there is another serious difference between maharaji and the servants you grew up with. your servants did honest labor and were paid an honest wage in return. it was a fair and just contract. and anyone could apply and be paid if they performied the duties well. maharahi doesnt pay peop to be his servants. he just makes them work. there is no fair trade, no just remuneration, no dignity of labor. he just wants it and that's supposed to be reason enough. the world long, long, long since passed out of that age of commanding and terrorizing others to serve and slave and labor just because one tyrant wants onother to do it. work and wage has been the rule for centuries. he does not deserve what he has. he did not do any valid work to earn it. he has given the world nothing demonstrable in trade. he wanted it and wanted it given to him for nothing. he wanted work done and wanted it dome for nothing. the surrounding that YOU grew up with were bouhgt and paid for by ages of valid and genuine human work. It is the visible proof of contribution to civilization in times past and possibly the present. I don't know what your family fortune comes from, but I bet it comes from blood and sweat and tears and work, and the labor of ordinary peole over a lifetime, and was paid for in the beginning and all thru the middle and was paid in turn at the end, for real value. It did not come from pointing to thin air and asking for everything for free for doing it! It did not come from ordering people about and commanding them to work for nothing back. the thing maharaji thinks he owns, he really does not. he no more owns them validly than a child owns the toys on the showroom floor, even though he is surrounded by them. or than he owns everything he sees when he spends the day at Disneyland. Or than an actor owns the fabulous sets he moves through while shooting a movie of some opulent time period. Each of them can get lost in believing and thenking that they do, but the shocking truth is, it will all be taken away at the end of the day. it all has to be. it doesnt belong to them. they didnt pay for it with their own money that they earned themselves by any valid means. it is there, yes, but someone else paid for every last bit of it, and that someone can revoke it and weild the power of that ownership any time they wish. Rawat is in the same position. None of what he lives in, eats, or moves through is his. He never paid for any of it. Others did. HE didnt work for any of it. Others did. Not only did he not pay for the goods, he didnt pay them for their services either. I would like to know if this has been the case in your family. I would deeply doubt that it has, knowing history. I would expect that your family paid validly for what they acquired or received, and rendered valid contribution back to the race, to receive that wealth in return. Yes or no?

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Doc To: janet Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 10:04:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I'm still thinking about your son, your anguish and your sadness and I really hope he turns up ok and that he offers you a suitable explanation and all is well again. It is truly awful when our kids go through crazy and difficult times. You're right though, your serenity is very very important and I wish you the best for that and hope it keeps you warm and sheltered from the storm. About the wealth and servants thing. Well, there would be many that would argue vehemently about the English Aristocracy gaining their wealth and lands in a righteous and honourable way!! However, in due defference to my ancestors, yes, many of them worked extremely hard and were very successful in their chosen fields and so benefitted from their work and their connections. Much of the European wealth however is stolen from others but I won't go into that sorry story now. It's all relative and M's apparent wealth is a product of both his efforts and successes and the gratitude of others who feel he has indeed given them a gift of priceless value. I fully understand why a multimillionaire would give a few hundred $k to a beificiary they like, it happens all the time. Supporter sof Mr Bush gave in the millions. People give M gifts because of how they feel about him. I don't think we are in a position to say that's bad or that's good, it just is. It's their private business. I have to go, it's getting late. I hope you rest well, enjoy your serenity and that the saga is soon over for you and your family.

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Thorin To: Doc Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:10:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR You said: ...simple energetic human dynamics... seemingly to fully justify your craving and following of the Malibu GooRoo. Yes I agree that he has simple energetic human dynamics - no problems there. Hey what about morals and ethics?! No place for this? Thorin, who believes that humans represent more than energetic dynamics.

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 04:31:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DR Also wondering if you have managed to find the time to reply to a question I put to you a few days ago. Maybe I missed your reply? thanks, Thorin Question to the Doc www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=1712.10051465733439

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: AnswerDoc To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 09:43:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin. That gibe to John was really a reference to many of us who, in the early 70's, literally wandered in off the streets and put our hand up for Knowledge, without the slightest clue what it was about or what real practice would involve over the long term. Nowadays the main criterion that instructors (not just C and B) look for is an understanding that Knowledge isn't an 'instant buzz' thing that they get and walk away with in their pocket. Rather, it's a small glimpse of the potential that, if practiced diligently, will reap very pleasant rewards that do indeed, fulfil and even exceed the expectations we have upon first hearing about it. Also they try to make sure that curiousity seekers are asked to listen a bit more. M has often said that if someone receives it when they're not ready - then nothing happens. Hope this helps.

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Livia To: AnswerDoc Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 12:47:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi DR, I may sound cynical but all the above is exactly what I would ask for if I wanted people, on learning how to practise a meditation I taught, to associate the experience felt with me. I would make sure they watched lots of videos featuring me talking about it. I would make sure that they never forget that the experience came from me. And I would make sure that the recipient should feel gratitude towards me. Otherwise, the person might walk away, start practising the meditation, experience something really rather good, but not associate it with me. And then where would I be? Livia

Subject: Re: Errr...Doc. From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 12:59:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Liv Thanks for arriving - it was against my better judgement that I engage with the trolls. Although the reply Sir Doc gave was polite it sure was vacuous in the extreme. Sorry Doc, but thats just the way it is. I can't beat about the bush. Liv, assuming you have MS Word on your machine you should look up the Thesaurus on 'vacuous' - very amusing! Love, Thorin

Subject: Oh, so sorry, From: ResigneDoc To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 08, 2002 at 07:11:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for a moment there I allowed myself to imagine I was talking to an intelligent communicator, a person who reads a post and responds to what was written, rather than to his own pretty little picture of darkness. Alas no, it's just another creepy juvenile trying to show off to his imaginary mates. Oh, and while you're busy chortling and giggling over your Thesaurus, try logging onto the 'netiquette' website and note the definition of 'troll'. Then compare my above post to your reply... ....and enjoy the wake up call mr anonymous. NOW YOU KNOW WHO IS REALLY LAUGHING EH?

Subject: Turtle Island... From: Cynthia To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 14:50:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, Shit Doc, I think I'd be committed to telling everyone the Universe was on the back of a turtle and I was the only one who knew 'Turtle Talk', if the result was houses, servants, luxury cars, helicopters, private jets, and loads of georgous dumb devotess lining to shag me. It's a scientific fact that Turtle Island is North America, doncha know? Pacific coast is left coast and Atlantic coast is right coast. (I know you know this.) I'll have to check with my Abenaki Indian friends. North America is pretty big too. Now if I can only learn all the turtle talks I'll be all set. I bet I can get tax exemptions too. Set up a ''free'' B)gambling casino with a plush bar for my followers. Oh, I'll take everything you mentioned above but I'd like a devotee rather than an 'devotess,'' dark hair and no blondes. I'd especially like a canoe...oops...I mean a yacht--hey I'll take both! Good to see you here Anth. I do collect turtles. No dead ones or live ones. Nice carved ones: stone, wood, glass. I put them all in a box now because I got sick of having a turtle theme in my home. They get old. Love, Cynthia, spring is here...sigh...time to get the wood in.

Subject: Turtle Talk. (ot) From: AJW To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:35:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, An old friend of mine from the 60s collects turtles too. She's got dozens from all over the world. A sent her one cut from a sheet of perspex when I lived in Holland, but the British customs confiscated it. Did you know there's a robotic turtle that's used in schools? I wrote the manuals for it. Adios amigo, Anth glad he doesn't have to carry his house on his back.

Subject: You're talking to Cerise, Anth From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 13:37:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just thought I'd fill you in since you've been away for a while. Doc aka DR is David Roupell's new incarnation.

Subject: Gad, I've been duped. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:37:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pat, The cunning cad nearly had me banged to rights gor blimey. Better nip down the pub for a pint of ale right smart guvnor. Anth the phoney cockney.

Subject: Whaaaat?? From: Cynthia To: Doc Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 11:17:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'He's always sold the thing big time. Just so happens it's free of coinage.'' What the hell does that mean?

Subject: Re: yea but Mill From: Mili To: Doc joining his mates Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:04:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's amazing, isn't it? It's like Maharaji was saying last night - people look at history and then they only remember the dates. It's as if the lessons that history presents are unimportant and the dates are the main thing. Completely missing the point.

Subject: his daughter joined his cult [nt] From: the point is-he's happy To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: his daughter joined his cult From: You fucking bet I am... To: the point is-he's happy Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:45:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):

Subject: introducing her to cocaine-shame, shame From: it's like or worse than To: You fucking bet I am... Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:50:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nnnnnnnnn

Subject: Yes, true Pat, but... From: Doc To: it's like or worse than Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 09:54:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Na, we already did the coke thing at Sydney parties in the mid nineties. One day we 'came to' at 11am around this lovely swimming pool and realised we'd been yakking and grooving there since 10pm the night before. We'd yacked about everything under the sun. Formed bands, saved the rainforests, started and finished relationships, learned fantastic new philosophies... ...all of which was completely forgotten as soon as the sun came up! Soon gave that little 'treat' a miss. Better to say nothing at all than to pontificate all night in a coke vacuum.

Subject: Who're you talking to, David? From: PatC To: Doc Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 13:25:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't take anonymous digs and I sign my posts unlike you.

Subject: Dear John :D From: Catweasel To: Mili Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 05:14:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1998 (one Year)...1999 (Two years)...2000(Three Year)....2001(Four Years)....2002(Five Years).. Hmmm that's 1,2,3,4,5 Duhhhh I think thats 5 years!:P

Subject: What about my grand-neice Cat. From: AJW To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 11:41:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cat. So that means my grand-neice, little Louise, who was born in 1998, must five years old this year. I thought she was going to be four. I must have missed a birthday somewhere. That skunk must have been stronger than I thought. Can you help me out here Cat, what happened to the missing year? Anth who bases his maths on the counting system 'One, two and many'.

Subject: Re: What about my grand-neice Cat. From: Cat To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 14:52:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth , you and I both know she is 'Eleventyseven'.Mmmmm

Subject: So one year ago was 2002, then? From: JHB To: Catweasel Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 05:39:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said 5 years ago. So what's one year ago? 2002?

Subject: Nice to meet you, Michael From: PatC To: michael mclure Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 02:39:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was also a peasure to read you. I know I just keep on plugging away here because new people arrive and I keep being contacted by premies I have known in the past. Some of my old aquaintances are out of the cult but don't understand why I bother criticising it. They've put it in the past and no longer want to think about it. Others are still in the cult and are really upset that I call it a cult. Most of the latter soon shut me out. A few become angry and start behaving quite viciously the way the apologists on the forums do. On second thoughts no they don't. None of my former premie friends have ever been as nasty as some of the anonymous cult apologists who post here. The only emotion that I think has the power to evoke that sort of anger and hatred (the kind that spawned the CAC attacks) is fear. The only kind of person who would give into such hideous impulses is one without ethics- just like Rev Rawat in fact. I'm glad you're out and hope to hear more from you.

Subject: Re: Nice to meet you, Michael From: michael mclure To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:56:23 (EDT) Email Address: m_mclure@hotmail.com Message: Thanks Patrick. I have greatly enjoyed your contributions here. I can't understand why anyone would behave badly towards you, that is unless they were mentally deranged! If I ever get to SF again, I will be sure to look you up Regards, Michael

Subject: Thank you, Michael From: PatC To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 03:16:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not the most ''calm and dispassionate'' person in the world so I make mistakes as well as enemies. I don't expect everyone to sgre with or even understand what I have to say and am pleased when someone does. I'm certainly enjoying your exchanges here. Thanks. I certainly hope you will make it to SF one day. PS Also thanks for not giving into timidity and posting with your name and email. Very sane and sensible.

Subject: Re: Thoughts re: entrapment From: Richard To: michael mclure Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 19:23:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beautifully and passionately said, Michael. A hearty welcome is in order unless you've previously posted and I'm having a senior moment. I really enjoyed reading your post and look forward to hearing more from you. You wrote: It seems the more you practise k, the more isolated you become, the more disatisfied you are and the less able you are to do anything about it. It's more a spiral than a loop, confining instead of expanding. Very succinct and graphic analysis. I'm sure pwk would want to debate that point to defend their involvement but it holds true for me. Cheers, Richard

Subject: Re: Thoughts entrapment From: michael mclure To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:19:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Richard for your warm welcome. I have posted once or twice in the past. I am a more serious lurker, however. You regulars are so good, it leaves the rest of us with precious little to add! Regards, Michael

Subject: Be my guest, Michael From: Richard To: michael mclure Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:46:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, please be my guest, Michael. I'm sure you do have much to add. It's when new voices speak up, the regulars get to sit back and hear something fresh. Some days I think I've said everything I can possibly say. Doesn't stop me from posting, though. ;) I speak for myself but suspect others feel the same. Without new thoughts, stories and perspectives the forum becomes a big rehash spinning around like a virtual Cuisinart. Looks interesting but without fresh ingredients, the recipe gets boring. So just toss some of us oldtimers in the compost pile and tell it like it is! Richard, who should put the cooking metaphors on the back burner or leave them to a real chef like PatC.

Subject: Time for us to retire, Michael From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 03:32:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with everything that Richard said. I'm also hoping the forum will go on until all the decent premies have heard what their former brothers and sisters have to say. Some really good articulate people have come on board recently. So far, Michael, you've made yourself as clear as a bell to me. Of course Richard and I are flattering you and hoping you'll take the bait and become a regular so we can sit back for a while.

Subject: Welcome, Michael From: JHB To: michael mclure Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 19:19:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's posts like yours, and the people like you, who feel the same but do not post (hey!, I know you're there, why not say hello?), that make helping out here worthwhile. All the best, John PS. Are there any premies left in Australia?

Subject: Re: Welcome, Michael From: michael mclure To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:30:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John, I thought it was about time I made a contribution. I personally think there are too many premies still left down here. It must have something to do with the fact that we were a long way away from cult central. M managed to conceal his flaws better here. Oh, and if I'm ever in Latvia, I would love to visit! Regards, Michael

Subject: Re: Hi, Michael From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 08:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi and welcome! I notice Cat, Mili and co have already dropped in to add their disingenuous and predictable nuggets of spin. They must have learnt to live with the cognitive dissonance that results from years of pretending to themselves that you can live harmoniously in the world and practise K at the same time. Your analysis is spot on, and you've pinpointed the 'problem with no name' afflicting the lives of premies. I felt it for years but of course you couldn't talk to anyone about it because they were all too busy denying it to themselves. A lot of premies deal with it by 'drifting'; i.e. living normal lives but privately retaining their faith in Maharaji, but this leaves a whole area of life undealt with. Eventually they drift over here and then everything becomes clear. Cat and his ilk deal with all this by pretending that we all took M too literally. They, of course, didn't! It's all bollocks of course. They'll say anything at all to avoid facing that they've been had. Anyway, a hearty welcome to you and looking forward to lots more insightful posts from yourself! All the best to you Livia

Subject: Re: Hi, Michael From: michael mclure To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:49:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, thanks for you welcome. I think we all had a lot of practice in cognitive dissonance. Defending your master against those ignorant brutes out there becomes a more mindless activity the more one practises it! For me, practising k made me edgy and dissatisfied..isolated. Then I would sort of drift away for a while without letting go of the 'good' intention. Sooner or later some crisis would interfere sending me back into a more dedicated practice.I could never seem to understand that it was the practice of k that was the root of the problem!! I had been so well indoctrinated that I refused to admit the possibility. All I can say is thank you all for being here -:). Regards, Michael

Subject: Re: Hi, Michael From: Livia To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:31:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry about that (above) - my computer went beserk for a moment. Just wanted to say that your posts are stunning, simply stunning, and a very welcome addition to what we already have here. BTW, have you ever dropped in on Life is Great? Perhaps you could make some headway with those guys over there - if anybody can, you can. They certainly need to hear a voice as succint and clear-headed as yours. All the very best to you Livia

Subject: Re: Hi, Michael From: ++++++++++++++++++++++++ To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 07:27:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: MIchael your posts are stunning From: Loaf To: michael mclure Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 01:32:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For me, practising k made me edgy and dissatisfied..isolated. Then I would sort of drift away for a while without letting go of the 'good' intention. Sooner or later some crisis would interfere sending me back into a more dedicated practice.I could never seem to understand that it was the practice of k that was the root of the problem!! I had been so well indoctrinated that I refused to admit the possibility. this paragraph has stunned me ! I have never seen so clearly before, the damage of Knowledge. I am Fucked !!! Eeeek.. I am so far off balance i dont even Want to try and straighten up.... I have grown accostomed to living in a bubble and am scared and reluctant and cling onto my 'warm feeling' like a cornered animal. I really hear what you are saying, but I dont think I can let go... I am scared of falling. Eeek I feel vulnerable ! Thanks (Sheesh!) Loaf under a blanket with fingers everywhere....' this isnt kansas, this isnt kansas'

Subject: Re: Hi, Michael From: Cynthia To: michael mclure Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 22:14:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome, I forgot to welcome you. Join the party, the fray. We're humans again... I got K in Hartford, CT in 1976. As others have said, pull up a chair and talk. We all talk so much a new voice is a fresh cup of water. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Thanks, Cynthia(nt) From: michael mclure To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 22:57:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: so you think you're lost? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:55:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was 60. Now she's 97 years old and we don't know where the hell she is.

Subject: Re: so you think you're lost? From: Mili To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 06:07:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got a laugh out of that one. Thanks. :)

Subject: Re: so you think you're lost? From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 03:26:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV It's a scam ya know! :) I bet she is sitting in her sitting room right now, watching telly and having a good chuckle (probably with a nice cup of tea). You are under the impression that she walked 67,525 miles. I too thought I had taken a long journey these last 28 years - only to discover that I never moved from home. Thanks for the koan. Tis a summer day here in London (not). Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: she walked 67,525 miles. From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 08:59:57 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe she was beta testing for NIKE ? whaddya think? btw, did you see the Economist front page? something about fallen Idols / CEOs etc. leaders mag take note!

Subject: Re: she walked 67,525 miles. From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:06:25 (EDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.co.uk Message: Nike = Next Immortal Kult Engine? Yep AV I think I gettit by jove :) The Economist, nah I did not see it, but have now. Subject matter dear to my heart. Splain when we meet up eh? I like their expression "The cult of the all-powerful chief executive". Warmly, Thorin Fallen Idols www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1109770

Subject: Forest Gump is Smart O/T From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I watched 'Forest Gump' last night again. Have you seen it? At one point Forest starts running. And running for over 3 years. People ask him why are you running? For the environment, women's right's, endangered species, etc.? He just say's 'I just feel like running.' Soon he has followers. About a couple of dozen people running behind him not knowing why he's running but thinking he has some great message to impart. After years of running from coast to coast to coast he feels like stopping so he does. Everyone behind him stops too. He faces the people behind him and say's I'm tired I'm goin' home. Forest always knew where his home was, Alabama. A few of folks who were 'following him' look at him and say ''What are we supposed to do now?'' It's a very good movie. I've seen it about four times. The first time I laughed at the improbability of all the things Gump accomplishes. I laughed at many silly satirical moments. This time I saw the satire as seriously funny and enjoyed that too. When Forest is a boy and his spine is crooked he has to get braces for his legs. His Mama played by Sally Field says: ''Forest don't let anybody ever tell you you're different, If God intended everybody to be the same he woulda had everybody wear braces.'' We had weekend guests and one is a brother to us. He is almost illiterate in that he reads and writes very slowly and has a tough time expressing himself verbally too. Yet he is a brilliant woodcarver and furniture maker. Brilliant. It's all up in his head. He sees a piece of wood in the forest, like today before he left to go home, and I just asked him ''what's that gonna be?'' He said, ''Looks like a bear to me.'' I love having friends of all kinds, shapes, colors and styles. It's a good day, spring is here (for now anyway) Love, Cynthia

Subject: A time to live and a time to die. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:04:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to Marianne and everyone for your messages of condolence. The older we get, the more we have to deal with death. Sometimes I think, “You die young and lots of folk come to your funeral, or you die old, go to lots of funerals, and nobody comes to yours, because you’ve already been to theirs.” I’ve said, “Good-bye,” to both my mother and father in the past couple of years. I’ve also helped to organise, and in some cases, conducted, the funeral services of several friends, and more sadly, for their children. When somebody close dies, it leaves a big hole. When I was a premie, I believed that this hole could be filled with “knowledge”, or “maharaji”. This was naïve. Helping look after an old friend, dying of cancer, for a couple of months, showed me that there was absolutely nothing Rawat or his yoga techniques offered to help the situation. It was on the same level as the priests, who hover around hospices and intensive care wards, hoping to convert a soul or two at the last minute- as welcome as a fart in a sleeping bag. I’m grateful and happy that I’d dumped Rawats mumbo-jumbo before having to deal with my parent’s deaths. It’s inane clutter, of no benefit whatsoever. It serves only to separate you from your feelings by telling you it’s all an illusion. Well life isn’t an illusion. It’s very real. And it’s spiced with joy, sadness, laughter and tears. Rawat wants to take all that away from his followers, and distill it into devotion to him. Well he can fuck off. Love isn’t some remote, long distance, one-way, spiritual relationship. It’s something that happens between two people who touch, talk, laugh, care for, communicate and share their lives together. It isn’t about supressing your individuality. It isn’t about bowing down to a wealthy, spoiled, self-centred, greedy materialist, or poking yourself in the eyes and telling yourself you’re looking at God. It’s about being yourself and sharing your life with someone you care for. And when that person dies, the tears, memories and sadness are part of the love too. Rawat never encourages anyone to love their families and friends. In Premie world, this is seen as a distraction. A Premie’s love (and money) should really be aimed at Rawat, and nobody else. This stinks. It’s anti-life, anti-freedom, and anti-love. But if you’re stuck in the middle of a cult, you can’t see it. The price of being a “chosen one” is your humanity. This is too high a price to pay for anything, let alone four yoga techniques and a ignorant master who’s after your dosh. Anth, glad to be back on Earth again.

Subject: Oh Anth, my empathy. From: Tonette To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:20:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of all the people I've had to say goodbye to, it's my mom I miss the most. But you have to remember, the very best part of her lives on in you and all those that you touch and love in YOUR life. Take care, Love, Tonette

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Angela To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 16:58:05 (EDT) Email Address: springfever_1@yahoo.com Message: Thank you, Anth. My eldest son died a year ago and there have been many, many times when the ''maharaji-bull-shit'' made me want to vomit. How utterly clueless can one person be? Between his mindless babblings, ''breathe', ''be happy'', ''take one breath at a time'', etc., and his yelling at people in the broadcasts, he makes me ill and disgusted. Do the premies not hear his yelling at them, and in that whiny, squeaky voice of his that makes fingernails on a chalkboard sound good? There are lots of inane things people say, but rawat has really cornered the market. My current most hated one is that ''one breath at a time''. Like you have a choice. What is the alternative? Take ten breaths at once and then skip it for awhile? I was an aspirant, but trying to listen to rawat during my son's illness and after his death made me realize that rawat is nothing. A con man, a user, a scam artist, but in reality, he is nothing. Thank you for the post, Anth. It helped me to read it.

Subject: Feeling it with you From: Carl To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 01:28:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your words carry a powerful feeling, Anth. They are setting up a chain reaction of feeling, memory, regret and just maybe some acceptance within me, for aching losses: My sister, a premie, close to me in age, who committed suicide many years ago, had been emotionally abandoned by me (who was much too involved in the ashram and it's 'important work' to be much of a brother or even a simple fellow human being.) There's the sadness for the years lost in the cult where to be involved with one's family was distinctly discouraged, and not so subtly either. Rather, it was understood to be tantamount to betrayal of one's love of wisdom and holiness. How easily cowed and convinced I allowed myself to be. There's tears for that too. Your words are powerfully therapeutic as well. I wish everyone ever involved in this or any other cult would reflect deeply upon your words and would scrutinize their own actions to see if they have been made into self-congratulatory and oh-so-enlightened little shits. I don't post too much. Occasionally I also check out the AG and LG sites to see what's the buzz. But honestly, there is so much chest beating, defensive look-at-me-how-happy-and-together-I-am and supercilious posturing and pissing that it's hard to think of premies of today as anything other than the sorriest, silliest, most intellectually bankrupt and fatuous flakes ever to draw breath. Yet there's tears for them, too. I was one of them, alas. For far too long. We bought into m's divide and conquer concept. Even though I have no quarrel with meditation per se -- finding it a valuable centering and clarifying process, even energizing -- it is, in one's own personal reality of it, far, far removed from the elaborate baggage and apparatus in which m and the cult attempt to contain it. Indeed, as you say, they try to distill it into a obscenely lavish personal devotion to m. But at what cost? One weeps at the ignorance, the waste. And laughs also, maybe sometimes bitterly, but now more joyously. For even in the sadness of our losses there is the recovering of our fundamental humanity, the pure trusting souls that we are underneath the conditioning and confusions of our cult-addled years. It turns out, we didn't need a middleman after all. Maybe that's the cosmic joke. Thanks for saying so well what needs to be remembered always. Carl

Subject: Re: Feeling it with you From: PatC To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 02:50:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always appreciate your posts but I know it's time-consuming. In fact I have to curtail my time spent here next month as I will be putting in too many long hours at work over summer. You said: ''....there is so much chest beating, defensive look-at-me-how-happy-and-together-I-am and supercilious posturing and pissing that it's hard to think of premies of today as anything other than the sorriest, silliest, most intellectually bankrupt and fatuous flakes ever to draw breath. Yet there's tears for them, too. I was one of them, alas. For far too long.'' The premies I know who don't post are not as vicious or infantile as the ones who post on the forums but yes, few of them would understand the word ''fatuous.'' They'd probably accuse you of making ''fattist'' jokes about His Plumpness. :C)

Subject: Amen Anth From: Susan To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:47:22 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My condolences and prayers are with you too. Your post is as well written as always.

Subject: An appropriate and thoughful post Anth, From: Brian Smith To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:26:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for a very thoughtful and pertinent post Anth. I myself have been very ill for the past several months and have been undergoing a grueling course of chemo therapy. To top that off my younger sister (also an ex-premie) took her own life last month. It fell to me to fly to Phoenix AZ and make final arrangements and deliver her eulogy. She had no children and both of her ex-husbands were emotional basket cases. I was too, but even in my weakened state I managed to find the fortitude to deliver a thoughful, compassionate and loving tribute to my dearly beloved sister. We went through the premie thing together, she attended Millenium and hung around for a couple of years, then went her own way. She caught on much sooner than I did. The point is, even though her death was a tragedy, the one thing that we managed to put to rest was this myth of tying rawat up with having some sort of divine or supreme power over our lives and ultimately our eternal hereafter. We both found the freedom to live and to one day die without the encumberance of a false belief system based on the mystical worship of an ordinary human being who was not really there for us in life and damn sure will not be there at our moment of death. I am sorry to hear that you have had so many recent losses as well, I understand the grief that goes with it. In the last 5 years I have said goodbye to my father, my older brother, His son, my brother in law and now my sister. With the exception of my Dad, all under the age of 50, my nephew just 27. Your message of learning to deal with the reality of life and love certainly rings true for me at this time. I am glad that I am in touch with my feelings free to face the grieving process not muddled up and mired in some sort of supressed devotional separation of the situation. All the best to you and yours, Brian

Subject: Hang in there, it can't get any worse From: Tonette To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 11:29:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope it won't get worse. God Brian, what an ordeal. That's alot of close and personal losses in such a short time. You should be good to go for the rest of your life, like let's say another 40 years? Hey, look at it this way, and please don't take this as a cold hearted comment, your chemo wouldn't be an option if your doctors didn't think, weren't able to know, that this most grueling treatment didn't offer a cure or a long reprieve. It's hard, very. Hang in there. I've always been very fond of you from what I know of you. Please take care. I'll be thinking of you. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Hi Brian. From: AJW To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 11:56:45 (EDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: Thanks for that post Brian. I hope you get over your illness OK. You sound like you're dealing with it courageously and wisely. What you say rings very true with me. On the subject of grief. I mentioned that I'd organised and conducted some funeral services. They were all for people I knew, and, as I mentioned, sometimes for children. These were the saddest funerals of all, because they'd only just started out in life. A few years ago there were three funerals close together, which I was involved with. About a week after I got home, after the third funeral, I received news that an old and dear premie friend had committed suicide because of his tinnitus. I looked into my grief box, and it was almost empty. I thought, 'We can only carry so much, and if there's too much tragedy, it runs out.' Like petrol in a car or something. I think soldiers who've been through a war probably know more about this than I do. Another strange thing I've noticed, is that there can be an incredible amount of genuine joy and laughter surrounding a death- shared by the folk who love the dying. It happens within the private world that seems to appear around the incident. It reminds me of what happens at a birth. Both are very special, deep, meaningful, and totally natural events. People who come into contact with a birth or death immediately sense the importance and significance of what's happening, and respond in the most beautiful, human way. I get the feeling that it's the same door that opens for a moment. Sometimes someone steps in, sometimes someone steps out. Then someone knocks on it with a bunch of flowers. Take care Brian, and if you feel like it, drop me a line. Anth, christenings, weddings, funerals and parties.

Subject: Re: An appropriate and thoughful post Anth, From: eb To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 10:18:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, Brian! I am utterly amazed at your strength to deal with it all. I get so overwhelmed by grief which, like depression, feels as though it will never end. Perhaps by *not* dissociating, you are able to summon up the strength and courage to deal with all the losses. Or does it come to you without effort? I ask because I spend so much time anxiously awaiting the future losses, I tend to have trouble answering the phone. With love, Ellen

Subject: It's nice to see you here again, eb From: PatC To: eb Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 13:44:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: I'm sorry to hear that, Brian From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 03:04:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The strange thing is that I was just reading a post by Carl above where he talked about his sister, also a premie, taking her own life. How many people did Rev Rawat hold out the promise of salvation to and failed to deliver? I've known of so many suicides among people who came into contact with Rawat. I can't resist a joke: It would be like reading in the Bible that one hundred people in the crowd of thousands at the Sermon on the Mount had killed themselves eventhough they had been saved by Jesus, the Master. Well, who knows maybe Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were really cult spin-control revisionists. Did you get Absolutely Fabulous yet? You know you are seldom far from my thoughts.

Subject: A moving and thoughful post Brian From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 23:12:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good grief, Brian. I am so sorry about the recent loss of your sister. That is such a tragedy. I had no idea you were dealing with that as you are healing yourself. I admire you tremendously for your courage and compassion. I am moved deeply by your post and feel more human having read your words. I was just thinking about you earlier today and was going to email to make sure you know I'm willing to do that project you asked about. Good health to you my friend. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Bai Ji To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 20:41:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Anth Ji, I don't know what to say. I do hope that you are surrounded by people that love you. I am sure that you are. You are a most caring and sincere man and I wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the help you provided me with when I first ventured here and was (still am) in need of intensive care. I too, hope that you find the time and inclination to keep posting here, as your wit and humour do much to heal broken hearts. Love to you and Dot XXX

Subject: Well said Anth. From: Kelly To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:22:05 (EDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Absobloodylutely! First of all, I'd like to offer my sympathy for the loss of your Mother. I too have said goodbye to a few friends lately, my husband has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, so I have been looking death in the face one way or another. I sat for a while with my dead friend's body....there was something missing!! But there was something present in abundance...there was love, there was peace...he had totally accepted death. He had said goodbye to fear. He embraced death as a new adventure. I am also so glad that I had shed the cult before all this happened....I was still in when my mother died. Apart from being told to let the dead bury the dead, I just didn't get to spend any time with her to say goodbye...So...30 years later, I'm still reliving her death. There are those who might argue that this is all my problem and nothing to do with my involvement with the cult, aka DLM, aka EV, aka the organisation. That my personal problems are my own and do not reflect upon the cult in any way. That the master's message is so simple and timeless and if I can't be blissful and grateful all the time, I'm just not doing it right. It's such a farce! you're right Anth, he has nothing to offer at a time like this but corny platitudes. In Rome '96, he told a story about someone who came to him very upset because his father was dying...How old is he 'M' asked? 82 was the reply. So then M made a big joke about how come you're surprised? Didn't you know this was coming? etc etc. What a bastard, what a sorry bastard.....talk about missing the point....I don't think he'll ever get it. My very best wishes to all who are recently bereaved, to Anth, to Pat D, to Gerry and to Vicki. Love Karen

Subject: A beautiful post Anth, thankyou [nt] From: Loaf To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 15:12:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks, Anth From: PatC To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:49:52 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was the best Sunday sermon I've read in ages. You were lucky that you were out of the cult before your mom died. Unfortunately I was still a true believer and tried to satsang my mom as she was dying. The funny thing is that, as the words came out of my mouth, I saw that they were empty meaningless platitudes and could not compare with her strength and serenity in the face of her death. I think that was one of those subconscious drips because a year later I was out of the cult. What a treat to have you back. I hope you stick around for a little bit. There are four wonderful newbies from the UK all waiting for you to drink them under the table at the next UK Latvian night. :C)

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Sir Dave To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 09:33:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When my Father was dying, I cried on a nurse's shoulder and she had great love and understanding in that moment. My Dad had a smile for me on his face when I came back into his room and that was his last conscious act. After that he lost consciousness and slipt away. When my Mother died the nurses were also a great help to me. So to was my brother-in-law. He by the way, is making another attempt at becoming a Conservative MP. This time he might make it. The nurses who see it every day are truly remarkable. So too are the doctors. One doctor was very upset when all his treatment had failed and my Mum was dying. I was glad to be able to give him some kind, reassuring words. They're gone but not forgotten. We'll see them all again in the great theme park in the sky.

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: eb To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:21:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two of my close friends died during the time I was filtering everything through 'Knowledge'. When told of the first, I responded: 'I hope her next life is better.' News of the second received even less response (though we had been lovers). I went through the grieving process for each, and others, after being deprogrammed. The backlog of grief overwhelmed me, and, for a time, I adopted the philosophy that life is one, long grieving process (and god has a terrible sense of humor--giving us consciousness of life and death). I cried for 2 years after my father died, and experienced all the stages of grief including the acceptance and eventual feeling of peace and comfort. Strangely, I feel his essence always with me now... silently lucid. All this to say my thoughts are with you, Anth and Gerry. eb

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:15:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Beautiful words Anth and David. This is such an uplifting way to begin my Sunday. I am flying to Florida soon to be with my 95 year old dad who broke his hip recently. He is recovering well and that's comforting. What is most amazing is his expressions of gratitude that his children really care about him. This is a guy who, until a few years ago, would never use the 'L' word. One of us would say 'Love you dad' and he'd reply 'Ditto' or 'Me too'. Now he feels his own mortality and knows that love of family and friends is most important. I am grateful that my heart is open to dad and mom in these last few years I'll be able to be with them. Love to everyone and especially to you who are feeling pain and loss. Richard

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Vicki To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:20:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This post touched me deeply. My sincerest condolences to you, Gerry and Pat D. Thank you Kelly, for remembering. My mother passed away on Palm Sunday. We buried her on Good Friday. And had a memorial a week later with a high tea. The last day or so in the hospital, before we brought her home for the last time, her hands were lying on the white bed sheet. Seventy-four year old hands, the hands I had seen my entire life and yet for the first time. They were etched into my psyche, really. And it struck me, all the trillions of things those hands had done for me since the moment my life began. Not glorious, earth shattering things, but ordinary life enhancing things. They cooked the dinners that were always on time, ironed my school dresses, held a pencil that helped checked homework, held my hand when I learned to skip, comforted me when lost on the beach boardwalk, drove the car chauffering me to school and all the activities I pestered her to let me be in. I can see these calm, steady hands slowly, patiently stirring the milk for pudding, rolling pie crusts, wrapping birthday presents, folding sheets, making beds, and folded around a cup of tea. These hands did everything for me through the years, including writing out checks to save my family from losing our house, in some of our darker hours. These hands patted the backs of grandbabies, and turned the pages of countless books. These hands were there and could be counted on, year after year after year. I'm so greatful to have been able to care for her, along with my brother and father, in the final months of her life. It was impossible to begin to repay her, but caring for her was more delicate than that of a newborn. EPO allowed me this. For that, I will be ever in your debt.

Subject: Yes, she did all those things and more From: Tonette To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, May 09, 2002 at 14:27:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, what a beautiful post. Perhaps a reflection of you perchance? Thanks. Love, Tonette

Subject: Beautiful, Vicki. [nt] From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 03:13:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That is so beautiful, Vicki From: Richard To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 23:22:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a wonderful memorial you have honored your mother with. Thank you for sharing your open heart with us. I hope you don't mind if I share your words with others. I've heard that times of difficulty brings out our true nature. These vulnerable and loving posts today and many others in the past show just how much gorgeous humanity we share. I love you all. Richard

Subject: Re: A time to live and a time to die. From: Bai ji To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:58:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Vicki, Your beautifully poetic post has made me cry, again. I shall now call my mother and tell her how much I love her. She has put up with so much over the years of my involvement with m. Please accept my heartfelt condolences at this saddest time. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: A time to laugh a time to cry... From: Cynthia To: Bai ji Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 23:24:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've missed you Anth. I miss Joe too. (are you lurking?) And Brian: christ, that's a plateful... All these posts made me cry and laugh. Raw emotions salved by good words and love passed through cyberspace. Right here. I'm speechless...if you can believe that! Condolences, love, tears, relief and laughs to all of you who have spent these past months caring for yourselves, loved ones and telling these stories. Love, Cynthia

Subject: This thread has been very moving... From: Chuck S. To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 17:54:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been so moved by the words spoken here, that I'm almost speechless. Brian's incredible fortitude in the face of illness and tragedy, and all the while still reaching out to help others. Anth's comments about births and deaths both being like a door that opens, some come in and some leave, and how people instinctivly understand the importance of that, and respond to it. How natural it is. That rings so true to me. The comments about grieving too, I understand. At the hight of the AIDS epidemic, Pat and I watched hundreds of people we knew die. After the 40th died, we stopped counting. It's not that you stop caring, it's just that there comes a point where you have to control the trauma of loss, just so you can keep functioning from day to day. You even learn to make jokes and laugh, just to keep the grief from crushing you completely. It's OK to feel sad, it's perfectly natural, but you have to keep living and stiving, accepting happiess wherever you find it, too. That's also natural. Vicki's comments about her mother, and those hands that did so much, out of love. I was at my desk preparing a Mother's Day card for my Mom, while also reading the forum, when I came across that post. It made me all teary. Vicki, that was wonderful. My parents are aging and having health problems, and reading about the experiences of so many of you has been a comfort. I'm reminded that it's a road we all have to travel, but we aren't alone on that road, We have eachother. All of you, your posts have meant a lot to me, thank you. My deepest sympathies to all who are grieving, and love and kind thoughts, too. Best wishes for strength, encouragement, love and healing. Perhaps Cynthia said it best: 'Condolences, love, tears, relief and laughs to all of you who have spent these past months caring for yourselves, loved ones and telling these stories.' - Chuck S.

Subject: from exiting devotee of Muktananda(OT) From: Dave Punshon To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 06:52:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the last paragraph from an open letter to Swami Muktananda from an exiting devotee. I feel this way about PremRawat 'Previously, I had found it possible to rationalize most of your behavior, Muktananda, and to simply suspend judgement on the remainder. But I could find no way to rationalize such deceit, such duplicity, as you have apparently practiced on your faithful disciples over the years. I could find no way to make it fit my conception of 'human perfection.' I believe that when a Guru begins to lose sight of moral values--whether because of senility, madness, illness, or whatever reason--, and regards others as objects to manipulate and use for his own ends, and when he begins to resort to threats of violence to hide the lie of his personal life, it is a disciple's DUTY to leave that Guru. It is therefore with much regret and deep anguish that I feel forced to terminate my discipleship to you. May God protect and guide you. Sincerely, Stan Trout aka Swami Abhayananda

Subject: Who'd have thought... From: AJW To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:11:08 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dave, Who'd have thought that the followers would end up wiser, stronger and braver than the masters, most of whom seem to be disappearing up their own holy arses. Anth, if you meet a Buddha, kick him in the bollocks. (A sure test of enlightenment.)

Subject: yes Anth, it's called... From: Dave Punshon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:30:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bio-feedback when a master disappears up his own arse... atb Dave

Subject: Not really OT, Dave From: PatC To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 13:55:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like you, I agree with it and couldn't have said it better.

Subject: Yeah you are right Pat (nt) From: Dave Punshon To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 14:42:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: test nt From: test To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 23:45:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Abi To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 20:04:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Webmaster, dear all, over the last year my health has failed and I've been diagnosed with a life-thratening lung disease. My emotional and mental health have also broken down. It is with a full and deep respect for all the people who have supported me in the last few years that I must now request that the postings I have made on EPO be removed. Out of respect for my privacy and for my health, I also ask that people refrain from posting intimate details about my life. The traumas of the past have impacted on my present health which has in turn impacted on my ability to take care of my son. I cannot allow the traumas of my childhood to affect the quality of my sons childhood any longer. I need to heal and put the past behind me and it is for this reason that I request that the Webmaster remove my postings. I also ask that people refrain from posting my story on other websites or abusing intimate details of my life to further their own agenda. I will not change my position on this matter. Thank you all for your compassion, integrity, courage and wisdom. You helped me speak truth to power. I trust you will understand my position and respect my need for privacy. I do this for my son. Susan, you understand the sacred bond between mother and child and the importance of healing. I will always admire you. Abi

Subject: Blessings From: Disculta To: Abi Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 20:13:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, It sounds like a very good decision. I hope you feel okay about your past decisions. I've found my life to be quite a meandering stream myself! I'm sending you all the best wishes in the world re your health. I got quite sick when I was exiting, and am still dealing with it to some extent two decades later. I found myself in a situation where I was clearly going up against MJ in an environment that was almost all premies, even though some were more like sentimental exes. The vibes got to me. I found that I was rather sensitively designed to be in such an environment, and when I moved across the US and started my life over in a world that wasn't dominated by cult reality - either for or against - I felt a lot better. I really support you in completely dissolving the whole reality and putting your energy into your health and your kid. And also, as someone says below, if you ever want to come back and do any more completion, support and love are here for you, in love Katie Darling

Subject: Thank You Abi... From: Bai Ji To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 20:29:37 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My Heartfelt thanks to you (and might I add all) who have been brave enough to speak their Truth here. You have been through more than I can imagine. My own health is collapsing and I empathise deeply with you, as I know how the psychological and emotional dissonances of being involved with M/P for a lifetime have eroded my being. Please take good care of yourself. This exhortation is an overwhelming one for me as I realise I do not really know how to do that well, maybe it is the same for you after years of focussing on taking care of M or Knowledge in your life. The lot of a Gopi is to be last in the long list of deserved foci. As weak and ineffectual as this sounds...Please don't hesitate to ask if you need anything at all. Pat and Anth have my email. Sending you all my Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Kelly To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 14:32:50 (EDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: Dear Abi, I knew that your long courageous fight for justice had compromised your health, but I am so sorry to hear how bad it has got. The dynamics, which prevail within the cult, produce extraordinary levels of denial, obfuscation and dishonesty, and when faced with your simple tragic tale of abuse they went into overdrive. A year or so ago, I joined in your battle for a short time, I had some recent information to add to the picture. I know how this involvement affected me; I know how stressful it was. Trying to talk to premies about this is like bashing your head against a brick wall. At that time my admiration for you grew and grew. I realised then, what you had gone through day after day, month after month, year after year. I don’t think I could have done it. But I thank you from the bottom of my heart for fighting so long and so strong. You’ve done it for all of us and you’ve done it for every innocent victim of power abuse. I also understand and respect your decision to put the past behind you and concentrate on your healing. You must look after yourself. You have fought so hard, you need to rest and you need to look ahead to the future for you and your son. You’ve done enough Abi. Please look after yourself. However, if you ever feel you need to tackle this again, if there’s any unfinished business, just call on me…I know I’m not alone in saying that I’m here for you if you need me. Please phone me or e-mail me if you’d like to talk. With love Karen

Subject: thank you again From: Susan To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:43:36 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Karen, Please never minimize what you did to help with Jagdeo. I have suspicions that without what you saw in India and your talks with Deepak there would be know alleged lawsuit against him by EV India. Frankly, what you contributed got them to admit Jagdeo is a pedophile, even if they had to say that they don't believe Abi or I in the same sentence! How ludicrous that made them look. I think they found something big and recent in India, and I think they found it because of you taking a huge step to help a couple strangers who used to be your sisters in a cult. Thank you. I do not know this is true, but I deeply suspect you began to pull the straw that broke the camels back. Anyone else out there, that thinks what they know is too little or meaningless, it isn't. It matters a lot. What we still do not know is that the guy is locked up. Frankly, the idea of Jagdeo spending his old age in an Indian jail may not be justice enough, but it would be some justice. Also, anyone out there who can corroborate that I told Randy and Judy, or that Abi's dad told Charnanand, or the many other alleged reportings I have heard of. When you find the strength, speak out, it matters.

Subject: To Susan and every witness. From: Kelly To: Susan Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:00:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: As above...so below! From: Kelly To: Kelly Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 15:23:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Susan, We never quite know how powerful we are, how those seemingly insignificant acts, those chance remarks, we utter so thoughtlessly sometimes. A simple phrase spoken in a certain context can change someone's life. I hope I made a difference in the Jagdeo issue, I really do. I hope that my conversations with Deepak were enough to ensure that he instigated legal proceedings....however unfruitful they promised to be. But now, when I consider what has happenned to Abi, I feel even more angry, even more militant. I'm ready to fight this battle, to expose the truth. Hopefully we'll talk soon. with love Karen

Subject: Thanks Abi. From: AJW To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 08:59:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Abi, I’m sorry to hear about your health, and hope you are able to put all your energy into getting yourself back on your feet, living your life the way you want. I greatly admire your courage and strength, (and that of Susan), in standing up and speaking out against Jagdeo’s crimes. I know how difficult this has been at times, and I know how the cult have put pressure on you to keep your mouth shut. But you didn’t. And as a result, the skeletons have tumbled out of Rawat's cupboard and shown us all what a coward he was in allowing Jagdeo to carry on with his despicable business. You and Susan both did the right thing, and as a result, we’ve seen another, darker side, to Rawat and his cult. Exposing this pile of crap has had a massive impact in alerting everybody to what’s really been going on behind the “Perfect Master” trip. Both Rawat’s and Jagdeo’s behaviour has been despicable, and if it wasn’t for your courage, nobody would have known about it, and been warned about what a dirty, tacky little cult Rawat has been running. I’m sure you are doing the right thing, and as always, you have my full support and best wishes. Take care, Love from Anth, being lazy in the sun on the cliffs.

Subject: Love Always, From: in spirit To: Abi Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 04:34:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: such

Subject: very couragious From: david m To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 19:33:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi..I have followed your story since the beginning..Abi My heart goes out to you..Good luck..and thanks..peace..Love...David

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Susan To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 11:59:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I am so sorry you are so ill. You do need to put yourself and your family first. I totally understand about not wanting the ghosts of your own childhood to haunt your son's. I am in the same boat. I have been really upset with the Catholic scandal. It has stirred up a lot of emotion in me. Mostly how they could, for so many years, cover up these horrible crimes against children, moving the pedophiles around. Obviously, I feel real anger when I read this. Sometimes I think about trying to do 'one more thing' to be sure they have heard us, and believe us, about what a monster Jagdeo is. Then I think I have done quite a lot and should just realize I can't change people whose whole belief system is built on denial. I like you, always wished more victims we know of, and those we don't, would have the courage to come out. I too Abi, admire you for fighting so hard. You have done more than enough. You do have someone who needs you more than anything in the whole world, and your priorites are in the right place My prayers will be with you for your health emotional and physical. My love, Susan

Subject: Susan... From: Cynthia To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 12:15:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Susan, I've been waiting for you to post. I'm very sad about Abi's health. I'm also angry about the Roman Catholic Church for what it's done after years of cover up, lies, and blaming victims. Several years ago when I found myself up to my ears in books about child sexual abuse while trying to heal, and becoming enraged each time I saw a report on the news, I came to the conclusion that I would not watch those reports or read those books anymore. The books I have are in a large box in a closet. I still don't look at them because I don't need them anymore. It was hard for me to do that being so hypervigilant yet I succeeded in getting in the habit of switching the channel or muting the report or leaving the room when a report came on TV. Even with this RCC stuff I have to limit it. It's so triggering. I'm not telling you what to do; I'm telling you how it was for me. These days I can watch a bit about it. Being raised in that church with priests and nuns in my extended family, as well as the many devout Catholics around me all the time immersed me into that religion for many years. I'm over the religion. I also feel gratified for those victims who have dared to speak truth to power as Abi and you have done. The RCC got caught and that's good. I wish you the best as I do for Abi. Nothing in life is worth losing ones health and the ability to care for a son or daughter. Nothing. I think healing is much more difficult in some ways for survivors with children. I'm often amazed at women survivors with children. You do have something to live for: the sacred bond of Mother and child is primal and primary. I'm rambling, forgive me. I'm feeling a lot of things right now but my heart is full of hope. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Bolly Shri To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:59:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I wish you the very best and respect your decision. Balancing the various priorities in life is always harder where there are children to consider. Look after yourself and best regards to your son. He has a mother to be proud of. Love and best wishes for the future, Bolly

Subject: Bye Abi From: PatC To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 04:02:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I am very sad to hear about your health problem but I am very glad to hear about your decision to retreat and be private once again. I never was happy about your very public stance and knew that it must be difficult for you. So I seldom ever referred to you here and I definitely understand your concerns and will honor them. Thank you for your courage and honesty and I wish you all the very best.

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Cynthia To: Abi Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 00:55:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Abi, I'm saddened to hear of your illness. You always sober me with your honesty and fearlessness, Abi. I completely understand your request and be assured that I will always respect your wishes. I hope you know that what I've written regarding your childhood was always on your behalf. Turning this page is also your gift to me. Thank you. The most important thing is for you is getting well and being with your son in privacy. Live well and happy with love. Get better. You spoke truth to power with dignity and courage. I wish you the best, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Dear Webmaster, dear all From: Dermot To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:08:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's sad news Abi ..very sad. Very best wishes to you and your son Abi.I hope you are able to spend a long time with your son. I'm sure all here will abide by your wishes. Warm regards Dermot

Subject: Dear Abi From: PatD To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:47:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your story & posts were prominent on the internet when I 1st got connected getting on for 2yrs ago now. I never joined in those conversations because I never knew any of the people, or indeed had ever heard anything about what had happened to certain children.(you & Susan & others) I have my own children (7&9)& I sometimes wonder what I would do if they ever get entangled with the sort of business I & your parents got into. I know it would be something stupid. I'd swing for them,fuck deprogrammers......you know what I'm saying. You've done a great thing by speaking out,never forget that. He'll crash & burn one day,that's a certainty.In the meantime I wish you & yours all the best. If I knew who'd twisted your arm I'd twist his neck. Pat Dorrity : Stratford-upon-Avon,England

Subject: I respect you greatly, Abi. From: Richard To: Abi Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:19:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi, Your courage has been an inspiration to me. I respect you for mustering the strength to stand tall and tell your story fearlessly. That has made a tremendous difference to many people. And now you are once again standing tall and making your own health and the well being of your son your priority. Admirable indeed. Much love, Richard

Subject: Abi- good decision and good luck. [nt] From: Zelda To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:00:01 (EDT) Email Address: none Message:

Subject: Sweetness to you From: Vicki To: Zelda Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 21:30:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi, All the best to you and your beautiful child. Be well and kind to yourself. You are such a lovely human being. -Vicki

Subject: Hats off to JHB, Livia and others From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:53:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, I just wanted to say how much respect I have for people who, unlike me, are able to maintain their composure in the face of all the bullshit and just keep on going. Like I said, I'm not really like that. I mean, I can but I don't. So maybe that means I really can't. Who knows? But some of you -- JHB, Livia, Richard, Jerry -- oh God, now that I'm listing names I realize it's just about everyone -- no, that's not true. Some people just have a real knack ... Aw fuck it! How do I scrap this post? Anyone? I don't want to post it now because it's silly. JESUS CHRIST THIS IS PSSING ME OFF!! :)

Subject: Yes, very commendable From: Tonette To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 11:25:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But your style is equally valid, informative, and cherished. Please don't change it. Love, Tonette

Subject: Nice going, Laurie! From: Richard To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 13:36:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Laurie, Either you've really gotten to Jim and convinced him to be nice or he's gone back to A Course in Miracles. Either way, he's obviously struggling with his Inner Bastard. Hopefully, he'll still feel the safety here on the forum to express his IB appropriately because we care. We really do! Richard PS to Jim: Thanks for the compliment Bub but I agree with others that you should have listed everyone, you stupid Canook schmuck. See, I'm not always composed. :)

Subject: Re: Nice going, Laurie! From: salam To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 03:43:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what sort of phobia are we talking about?

Subject: Not a phobia, Salam From: Richard To: salam Date Posted: Sun, May 05, 2002 at 12:34:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really a philosophical question: If a premie posts on the forum and Jim doesn't read it and reply, does the premie really exist? ;)

Subject: Now THAT's funny! [nt] From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 07, 2002 at 15:22:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think you meant everybody, Jim From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 10:31:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I think you meant everybody there. The quality of debate etc has been fantastic here lately - from everyone. And don't worry about your sometimes abrasive tone - we all know where your heart is. BTW did I get a whiff of alcohol fumes from that uncharacteristic post of yours? Being a Friday and everything? Well they always say alcohol reveals a person's true nature and I always suspected you were a teddy bear underneath that gruff exterior. Love, Liv XX

Subject: Ditto what Jim said... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 08:28:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all of you who Jim mentioned and more...: You know, I just wanted to say how much respect I have for people who, unlike me, are able to maintain their composure in the face of all the bullshit and just keep on going. Like I said, I'm not really like that. I mean, I can but I don't. So maybe that means I really can't. Who knows? Some people just have a real knack ... I read you and do learn a lot from you who are able to be consistently civil and composed. I know I'm not on the list...I wouldn't presume to be... I'm honest but you all know I'm not always 'composed'.:) I'd add Marianne, too JimB) Cynth

Subject: Re: Hats off to JHB, Livia and others From: Bolly Shri To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 06:10:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Jim I know it won't get the Nobel prize for posting but am I not worth a mention for effort in the face of adversity? Love and stuff Bolly

Subject: No, Bolly, You suck From: Jim To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 13:35:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Frankly, Bolly .... No, I'm just kidding. OF COURSE you do! In fact, .... okay no more jokes. Of course you do. I guess what had really touched me, honestly, was the way Livia and JHB and Dermot (did I even mention him? oh yeah [hey, I'm just waking up]) were wading in with the premies -- and Dog :) -- with such calm dispassion. Bolly, you're great. In fact - and this is completely honest now (and no, Liv, no booze, then or now -- wait, Laurie just pointed out I've got a little Baileys in my coffee here), I'm once again so impressed by the quality of people and expression here. The cult can go fuck itself. This is all real and you guys are great. Here, big air kiss Mmmmmm....WwaHHHHHHHHH!

Subject: Absolutely From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 14:13:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just saying to Chuck how great F7 is with all these feisty, sane and articulate newbies like Bolly, Livia, AV, Thorin, Crispy et al. And I know you didn't include me on your list of those who engage the cultweasels with ''calm dispassion'' for good reason. b)

Subject: Re: feisty, sane and articulate From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 03:09:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: feisty?...at times articulate?...I always try to my thoughts in the right order put sane?....steady on there!!!

Subject: If the shoe fits......b) [nt] From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 06, 2002 at 03:15:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What about me? From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 18:47:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm the embodiment of cool, civilised, discretion....always.. How come my name didn't drop off your tongue without a second thought? :) -Dermot

Subject: Well, Derm ol' buddy, it's like this .... From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 21:13:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot, Actually, believe it or not, I was thinking of you in this respect as well. Not regarding your flawed perspective on the middle east, of course, but rather in regard to all this cult stuff. You're a complete gentleman here and we here at the House of Heller do take note.

Subject: Re: Well, Derm ol' buddy, it's like this .... From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:04:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I was being a little tongue in cheek... I think I lose it sometimes and let rip hahaha....but 'gentleman' hey? Well, thank you Sir. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: What about me? From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 18:49:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are my hero and read your email! Your Yank pal

Subject: Ccheck yours too Marianne [nt] From: Dermot To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 22:02:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 03, 2002 at 17:46:14 (EDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: This week, the California Supreme Court held that Nike could be sued for false advertising. The suit was brought based on Nike's advertising and press releases which assured the buying public that Nike didn't violate labor laws, didn't subject its employees to sexual or physical abuse, and paid a living wage. These statements were false. The California Supreme Court ruled that a public prosecutor -- the plaintiff's attorneys -- could sue Nike and if successful, require that all money obtained by Nike as a result of unfair business practices be surrendered. The California Supreme Court said: When a business enterprise, to promote and defend its sales and profits, makes factual representations about its own products or operations, it must speak truthfully. Does this ring a bell for anyone? Marianne

Subject: Re: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Bolly Shri To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 06:07:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for that Marrianne, it warms my heart to hear that justice can still triumph. There are so many instances of outright exploitation in progress that it's hard to take a stand always. But in fact when you do and see whats going on life is better when the snake oil in all it's guises is removed from our assortment of percieved neccesities. No more So Hung much more clear thinking, cheers for posting that Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Suit ag. Nike's false adverts-not OT From: Zelda To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, May 04, 2002 at 04:58:57 (EDT) Email Address: none Message: Your post is amongst some delicate ones- Abi and the condolences. But the Supreme Cts ruling seems BIG. Refresh my memory- is there documentation re the relationship of Ratwads business and 'promote and defend its sales and profits, makes factual representations about its own products or operations' and 'must speak truthfully' ?????? Z

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