Subject: Knowledge Resource Center From: Marshall To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:54:08 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Everyone, Here is something I came across on my mom's computer that I thought might be of interest. Note all the increased opportunities for 'participation', especially financial participation. As always, a big push for money, but... 'knowledge is free!' and 'Maharaji never asks for money!' hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Knowledge Resource Center Mailing address: 11664 National Blvd., Suite 325 Los Angeles, CA 90064 Many of you requested that we send a summary of what was covered on the conference calls we had with Ira Woods as guest speaker, on March 1 and March 4, 2002. These are the topics that were covered and a brief summary of the information given: Latest Local Developments City Contact Eve Hollander spoke about the fact that since Elan Vital downsized, we were no longer connected with them financially as in the past, and had to organize in some way for legal and financial purposes. We were advised to form an Unincorporated Association and the local Westside team chose the name Knowledge Resource Center, which is now legally our operating name. This enabled us to get an IRS Social Security number and a bank account under this name. This change also meant that local expenses for continuing to provide local events have been greatly increased. In addition to the cost of renting the room at the hotel for the weekly satellite broadcasts, some of these other additional expenses are: 1) Liability Insurance that had to be purchased (to protect us in case a volunteer or guest at an event should become injured and sue us) at a cost of $900.00 per year. which was purchased through the generous loan of a team member, whom we pay-back monthly; 2) Paying all mailing and other communication expenses; 3) Paying a share monthly for area-wide expenses to maintain the phone line and storage of equipment used at large events. The hope was expressed that we could even increase the number of aspirant and introductory events we offer, and that support for this was needed both financially and in volunteering time. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Propagation-related Activities in the Westside Area Eduardo Guinzburg, who is our Aspirant Contact in this area spoke about how the Aspirant and Introductory events are offered to provide information and help Aspirants and those preparing for Knowledge grow in their experience. He then mentioned that from time to time we also organize Practice Sessions for those who have recently received Knowledge. Eduardo presented the following statistics about how many people received Knowledge specifically from this area: From 1997-1999, a total of 12 people; in 2000, 6 people; and in 2001, 14 people. As far as attendance goes, we were excited to learn that over the last 12 months 71 people were introduced and 67 interested people attended our local video and satellite events. Therefore, propagation is definitely on the rise on the Westside. Currently, there are 25 Aspirants in this area alone, and the hope was also expressed that we would be able to offer more events for them and for those whom we would introduce to Maharaji’s message, so that eventually more and more people could get ready for receiving the gift of Knowledge. Ira Woods Ira Woods then spoke, expressing that he knew there were a lot of new things happening “behind the scenes” and although he hasn’t heard about it yet, he has all the information he needs at this time which is that Maharaji has a passion to do something and we can watch it unfold. He expressed that Knowledge is not an institution, not an organization, but has Maharaji, who understands it, can impart it, and can help anyone to connect to it. Ira expressed that we all need to recognize that Maharaji does not need to offer Knowledge at all – has no contract to do this – but does it because he wants to. And, although Maharaji’s way may change from moment-to-moment, the techniques of Knowledge have not changed, nor has the fact that this experience is between each individual person and Maharaji. Opportunities for Local Participation Scott Polenz, who is a member of the Knowledge Resource Center team, then spoke about local participation. He expressed that there were numerous opportunities now for people to volunteer and support events on the local level. He spoke about the increased need for financial support now that we are independent, and could be made: 1) Directly at the satellite or special events by cash, check, or money order; 2) By mailing checks or money orders to the Knowledge Resource Center address (above); 3) and by arranging for credit card or automatic withdrawal payments. He then spoke about participation and the fact that there is an increased need for volunteers now. He stressed that the time anyone would want to offer can be as little or as much as they are able to offer and that some can be done from home, such helping maintain our mailing list database and other computer-related projects. Scott then extended a warm welcome to anyone who would like to participate with us in being able to offer more special events. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Upcoming Events Scott mentioned two local area events: Aspirant Event with Sherry Weinstein – March 6, 2002 Update: At this event. 35 attended, including 5 Aspirants and 3 interested people. Introductory Program with a Guest Speaker -- March 16, 2002 – 7:00 p.m. Scherr Forum Theatre, 2100 Thousand Oaks Blvd. / Thousand Oaks To Help Financially Support The Knowledge Resource Center Please mail check or money order to KNOWLEDGE RESOURCE CENTER mailing address: 11664 NATIONAL BLVD. / SUITE 325 LOS ANGELES, CA 90064 Your support is greatly appreciated

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What the hell are they Insuring against, $900 buys a lot of cover - or do the premiums include provision for being sued for psychological harm ?

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Cynthia To: Blondie Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:00:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking that $900.00 doesn't by a lot of coverage at all. It sounds pretty inexpensive to say the least. And I am an former insurance woman. I would doubt that the Knowledge Resource Center has reported sexual or psychological or spiritual abuse to be included as part of their liability coverage. ;) Ummmm...it is a cult, after all. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie (got that wrong then) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:05:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I stand corrected. Was going by UK rates, obviously a different world.

Subject: responsibility From: david prothero To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:27:32 (PDT) Email Address: david.prothero@virgin.net Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead!

Subject: You make no sense... From: Cynthia To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:55:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could pick apart every sentence in your post but I won't waste my time on you.

Subject: Are you the Lord's co-pilot? (nt) From: Inside Edition To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What an idiot you are From: Marshall To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I feel sorry for your family, if you have one. Your philosophy(?) makes me ill. I don't understand people like you, thank god. Why do some people insist on blaming the victim?

Subject: Pilot culture doesn't impress me. From: Bryn To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:17:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry David, Taxi driver, stripper, social worker.. fine. But not another cocky pilot please. I mean why do they always have to work it into the conversation. Congratulations on your occupation. Now what about your state of mind? Love Bryn

Subject: Alert! Very scary attitude! From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:52:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an afterthought. Our esteemed pilot friend says ; 'whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame' Of course the Lion is to blame for the Gazelles death. If Gazelles had the chance, the first thing they'd do is punish that rotten old Lion for taking advantage of their naive little babies. Also can you think of any society on earth where fraudsters are NOT brought to justice because their abusive behaviour is considered natural and therefore tolerable? Can you see how your metaphor, which clearly casts Maharaji as the Lion -the fraudster as far as the Gazelles are concerned - does not have any healthy relevance whatsoever within the society in which we live other than to promote a very uncivilised, retrograde ideal, where the the strong prey on the weak? Is that the staus quo which you would like to prevail? Do you think it's OK to take advantage of others weakeness? Do you practice this yourself?

Subject: Re: responsibility From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead! Is your pilot training really so incomplete as to leave you with such a myopic viewpoint? If someone launches a missile at your 'plane are you trying to tell me that you'd not stand a better chance if you'd been warned that there was a missile toting maniac waiting for you beneath your flightpath? If your 7 yr old daughter was raped by someone would you have said that her lack of discernment made the rapist innocent? Of course not. If you were robbed would you just throw up your hands and say -'I should have been more wary 'or would you take the robber to court so as you could see the likes of him removed from society and so that you could get your goods back? Anyway the simple mistake you are making is that we're not denying our lack of discernment for falling prey to anything. Blame also means 'to find fault with someone' so I don't see that because one finds fault with Maharaji that inherently means that one is denying one's own former naievety. They are two separate things. The fact is that any sane person will agree that Maharaji has SOME responsibility for his actions and since he puts himself in a position of trust and so he's fair game for those who feel he abused their trust. Care to defend your comments further because I think I just wiped the floor with your logic and you're looking like one dumb pilot. Pat W

Subject: A simple question for you Dave... From: Whoa, Dave To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:36:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours?

Subject: Re: A simple question for you Dave... From: Moll of Mole To: Whoa, Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours? --- In his gurunesses world if something goes wrong it is your fault no matter what happens and no matter what you are told. It is truly a sick world.Have you EVER sat in front of his largeness and heard him say 'It was my fault that this did not go the way I wanted it to', no no no, it is always the coordinators or the instructors or someother poor shmuck. Fuck him and his self-righteous arrogance. Moll

Subject: To Chris Bray From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:33:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I read your posts down below and was impressed by your words how crucially important a part this forum and EPO has played in exposing possibly one of the worst examples of abuse that has come to light so far within the organisation. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that : What's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners. It is absolutely clear to me that your daughters request to be excluded from further discussions is rightly to be honoured. However I just wanted to add my voice to those others who have expressed that it is plainly of considerable importance and 'an appropriate agenda' for EPO to continue to offer the other victims a public voice and provide some sort of public warning notice. I totally agree with Jim that EPO should put as much detail as possible about the child abuse incidents that were perpetrated by Jagdeo whilst carefully changing names where appropriate. I would have thought this would be an acceptable course of action to you and your family who must realise more than anyone that the matter is not truly closed until a) all the victims have had their say and b) Maharaji and premies stop saying one thing whilst they are doing another. You add: Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised. But this is only the way it seems. The spear has done it's work. If you are willing to acknowledge it, the wound is there for all to see. The wound in the side of Maharaji's orgnisation is that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward. Yes, you have yourselves to thank for that. But equally you have to thank Abi. She fought for that. I was there. And, and you might not like this, you also have to thank genuinely concerned and sincere premies within Elan Vital. That statement on their website is a major step forward, for Elan Vital and for ex-premies both. Why? Because on the one side it's an admission of fallibility and on the other it's, at long last, an avenue for righting wrongs. And that's major, isn't it? That spear, believe me, well and truly found it's mark. What do we want to do, go and pick it up and throw it again? And aain? And again? Well, I think you must appreciate that Elan Vital are not necessarily going to be the first port of call for Jagdeo's other victims who seek assistance, despite EV's kind web offer. Therefore, yes, I see a real reason why EPO should pick up whatever spears it has in it's arsenal and continue to throw them, as you put it, whilst there is still dysfunction and denial going on in the name of Truth and the abuse goes on. As I mentioned down below, whilst a lot premies might acknowledge that Jagdeo did abuse kids, they apparently are largely very unaware of the extent - and despite EV's webnote many still just see it as a one off case that has no bad reflection on Maharaji or Knowledge. There's a lot of denial I sense about this matter - Especially, I think you will agree, regarding whether Maharaji had any responsibility. And since we are both apparently agreed that it is 'truly shocking' that people who are trusted as 'Teachers of Truth' like Jagdeo (and I might add - Maharaji himself) can abuse their position, has it not occurred to you that this kind of thing may still be going on? I would say that it is very likely since one of the hallmarks of premies - who widely believe that their Master himself is beyond 'normal morals and ethics' - is a huge disparity between their lofty talk and 'experience' and their everyday actions. Premies follow their Masters example and feel little or no responsibility towards the world around them and so suffer little conscience about taking all it has to offer but giving nothing back. It depends if you have an agenda, I suppose. I don't seem to have one. I haven't reached a point of anger yet. Speaking for myself, I absolutely have an agenda. Anger has played a part for sure, but also there is a huge issue of conscience, and a sense that it is simply doing 'the right thing' to confront the wrong that has festered within the Cult for so long - head on. Also if anyone can talk about the pitfalls of being a premie we can...We did it. I would go so far as to say that I, who again like you, walked the walk, practiced the Knowledge, bought the doctrine, surrendered my life from the tender age of 17, feel that I have a public duty to put aside my fear and reticence, and to share my experiences and realisations - within an open discussion if possible - so that others do not fall into the same trap as I did and waste a large part of their lives. So we, who were there have a social responsibility. If we don't feel it then we are not fully integrated social human-beings yet. At 45 with 2 small children I at last am realising that I can play a part towards the healthy evolution of my fellow man. Ex-premies are perfectly qualified to criticise Maharaji and try to make him see the Light! Further more, it is very satisfying to find a way to resurrect some true value from our largely highjacked past (that served to benefit Maharaji much more than us). She does not want to feel there'll be this kind of boiling furore ever behind her. For at least one very good reason. It reminds her of Jagdeo. Yes, that's one good reason I know. But does she want to deny the past? That is not the way forward for her or any of us surely? Like I said, she doesn't have to pay attention to the boiling furore that IS and ALWAYS WILL BE behind her as long as she has her memory, but she surely has to come to terms with it and move on. That is what we are all trying to do here. Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned. So whilst I am in full sympathy with your family I would urge you not to be so keen to bury the past that you concern yourselves overly with others need to carry on talking about it! Rest assured JHB and all of us here will be absolutely prudent to do the right thing. Feelings are probably running a little high at the moment on all sides but I am confident that good will prevail.

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Patrick From: Lesley To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:50:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am somewhat hesitant to add my voice because I am not personally involved in anything to do with Jagdeo or his victims and their families, but I am an ex premie. In particular, thanks for saying this: 'Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned.' I find it interesting to note that victims of sexual abuse through the Anglican and Catholic churches are now coming forward and decrying the tactic of paying money in exchange for their silence. It seems money is good, but if it comes at the expense of their voice, it is not enough, not enough for peace. I will admit, I credited Rawat with more intelligence than he has. I assumed that the invitation for people to step forward was good lawyering advice recognised and acted upon. It makes sense to assess the size of the problem, and the cost of it. And the more people they sign up, the fewer there are who might speak up and embarrass them. Can he buy his way out with our money? Having said all that, I will add that I empathise greatly with Chris and Abi and their wish to get off the front page, and of course first things first, I respect their need for privacy at this time, but I do not see why this means that the past must be erased from EPO, I feel strongly about this. Lesley Veale

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently From: Jim S. To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:15:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chris- First of all, you have my great respect for doing what you did. I 'left the fold' a few years ago, and wrote some letters to the community members in my community, and to m and ev as well.... I did it, not because it was an easy or enjoyable thng to do, but because it was the right thing to do, and my conscience compelled me to do it. The responses and lack of responses and denial were so revealing. You seem to be engaged in a similar situation. I wanted to make one point here, and to make it gently, as I know that you and your family have been through a lot. Also, as a recent ex, you must still be processing things and going through all kind of scary/exhilarating moments and realizations, as the past unwinds and becomes more clear. Additionally, you seem from your posts to be a very fair and kind man. I remember reading your posts about seeing maharaji personally in amaroo, and how you were so impressed by his apparent sincerity, and it seemed that you were ready to completely absolve him from all blame and start over with a clean slate, so to speak. Sometimes I am too nice, and too ready to let people start over with a clean slate. I wonder if the same might be true for you as well. I have caught myself doing this at times, and realize that I need to stand up for what is true, and for myself as well. I see many premies avoiding hard difficult choices right now in questioning their master, mainly because doing so would bring up so many uncomfortable feelings and shatter so many long held paradigm myths about the man and his position in their lives. While I am not suggesting 'piling on' the case of those who are critical of maharaji, I also would not suggest that he be let off easy, without fully explaining and accounting for the obviously immoral acts he has engaged in. What is needed is fairness and justice...sometimes I think that many premies are hesitant to stand up for what they think they deserve, especially if means confronting someone, and especially confronting maharaji. Lots of that conditioning still exists in us, even after we leave or adopt a different perspective. I think there is a lot going on now, and feelings and unerstandings may emerge in the future as more time passes, and possbly more people step forward. I would not be so quick to absolve maharai from all blame...I think that is exacly what he wants....on the other hand, I wouldn't make an obsession of going after him....I do think he needs to stand and be accounted for by telling the truth, and I think it is THAT which we need to press for..... We can occupy the moral high ground by asking for the truth to be told, but we must also be ready to stand up repeatedly to maharaji and the people who represent him, if and when we are ridiculed by them, lied to or manipulated by them, or we see obvious distortions and deletions promoted by them which revise history in order to escape responsibility for past actions that have been harmful.... I hope the point was made gently....it's something to think about, at least... Warm regards to you, Abi and the rest of yor family It has touched me to read your posts, and see the communication between all of you. Best of luck, Jim Sander

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently but truly From: janet To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear chris-- I would like to add my voice to patrick's and Jim's here, to say that even with all the things on the table so far, there are some aspects of this that we ought not lose sight of. I am having some of these driven home painfully upon myself, just now, again and again, by acts my own son is committing. He is very ill, mentally, and has taken off on a sociopathic spree that has been playing out for the last month. During this time, he has repeatedly assured me of things that I took on faith as being just as he said them to me, and I have been repeatedly shocked to find out shortly later that they were barefaced lies. These were things i invested money and time and belief in, only to have my sincere investments in belief cruelly voided, again and again. I tell you this, by way of gently indicating that we may all be up against this same behavior in our attempts to get real communication and fair closure with maharaji, jagdeo, and all of his organization. anyone can put out a PR release to make things sound and look good to the public. that doesn't mean a thing. what matters is how people are treated when they do approach with a grievance and ask for recompense and just action. actions speak louder than words. you know this. i know that the reason I have believed my son every time he has said such assuring words to me, is because I WANT to believe the best of him, for him, about him. It makes me feel hopeful that things are getting better. But things are not. I was believing that since tuesday, he had voluntarily gone to a live in program at ahouse for others like himself, and was getting three hot meals a day and his meds and had 24 hour staff to go to. In fact, the truth was very different. I have just learned this morning that a short time ago he was arrested, while terrorizing a woman he thinks loves him, stalking her and trying to open the locks on her house after ranting for hours on her property, thinking he deserved to be inside her house by divine rights. and so my naive hopes were again brought back to stark reality. all the years we were premies, chris, we ran to anesthetized ourselves constantly, with soothing, hypnotic, childlike assurances that all was beautiful, that this was it, that all that nastiness didnt really exist, that the world was Maya and only the master's words were real. that clinging to the belief in escape will continue, long past the day of exiting. we spent decades immersed in it, running to it at every chance, wanting to believe in it, longing for peace. that habit will linger, long past the day of renouncing, and it will get you at times you don't see coming.it was a practice. in thought, in speech, in belief, in act, in choice. and we sought to keep ourselves with others who kept the same. that's not a pattern you break overnight. consider how much we want to believe in the good. consider any form of advertising. any form of promises. any form of PR. any form of spin control. manipulation of public and individual belief is a fabulously highly paid science and art, now. people will pay anything to get the public to believe what they want them to. It is not a crime to trust someone or believe them. It IS a crime to misuse that trust, to fool it, to knowingly and intentionally mislead it for any purpose. consider that jagdeo is still at large, with access to still more children. consider that there is a suit filed in india by DLM/EV india, making a grand public posture of show, to go after Jagdeo and bring him to justice. yet it is conspicuously questionable as to why DLM/EV claims they haven't been able to find him. consider that jagdeo is a man whose life has been maharaji and knowledge for decades. consider that he was reported in africa since the suit was filed and posted on the india EV website. consider that he is nobody, anywhere in the world, except among premies, and people who follow maharaji. consider the global network of the organization, the world over. doesn't it strike you as extremely unlikely that EV could not locate him yet? i don't think your daughter has to keep her name in the story, but i do think that the impact of her story, of what happened to her, ought to be kept out there where others can know. she need not even look in or distress herself by checking in. she can leave that behind her and go back into her own life. as others have said here, the names can be changed to protect the innocent, but the story ought be told for the public good. the guys posted above me are also telling you the truth, when they counsel you that there are early stages of leaving, and later stages. it is wise to leave a lot of room for how you will evolve and mutate and metamorphose as the days go by. you can't tell from today, what you will think in a year, in two years, and beyond then. none of us knows what people here might share with you, in email, on this board, or in person, that will modify your evolution again. we can, however, tell of how we ourselves changed over time, after we ourselves left. that much we do know. a poem by omar khayam comes to minf: 'the moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on... nor all your piety, nor all your wit, can stop nor change a word of it'. this business of wanting to go back and wipe out all traces and references to something that well and truly happened,--this is wishful thinking. one of the intentional strengths of the internet was designing it precisely so that information would be disseminated out in as many places as possible, so that it would not be possible to wipe it out and eliminate it. before the internet, the printed medium was much the same. something might get out into print, and it would become impossible to call back every existing copy, to eliminate the knowledge completely. how many individuals have had to face this state of affairs? consider madonna and her ill advised nude photos before she got famous. or the Miss America who was similarly deposed for her photos, discovered after her crowning. consider richard nixon, who was disgraced out of the most poerful position on earth, labored to the end of his life to redeem and restore his name, died with full honors, and then now again, the silenced vaults of his actions are now opened to the public, 25 years after the act? It is truly not possible to call back what has already gone before. as they say, 'you can't change the past'. it lives. it is known. and it has power. and you truly can not control everything. you can not control what people say, or think, or talk about. the wish is understandable, but it is not truly possible to do in a free will society. the best you can do is accept it and grow with it gracefully. abi can remove herself from the turmoil and live peaceably away from it. she need not put herself where it will afflict her. but it is unwise to try to wipe out the past. after all, it's the only thing that we have to go on. the past is the only factual thing we have that has ever happened, isn't it? when people tell me to quit living in the past, i apologize and remind them that it truthfully is the only thing i know. everything i ever found out, happened there. and yet, still, I am fooled and taken in by things people tell me they are going to do in the future, and i believe them. and live to rue another day when it turns out not to be true.

Subject: Thanks Janet...Good one.... [nt] From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:38:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: very well said, Patrick From: cq To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:11:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... and as Chris Bray himself said, regarding Revisionists: the past isn't something you can take to a laundromat. Let me first say that I'm fully in support of Abi's request to have her name removed from any articles/posts regarding Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children (which, since he isn't behind bars, or even receiving treatment as far as one can tell, could well be continuing). Removing all references to her name is something which, as Jim has suggested, could easily be achieved by replacing it with a suitably incognito tag such as 'witness x' or whatever. But that doesn't mean that ALL pertinent information she has divulged about this criminal (and his accomplices, of whom Prem Rawat has to be the most visible) should be removed from EPO. Surely some consideration has to be given to the other victims who suffered at Jagdeo and Rawat's hands, and who could themselves (at some future time?) gain support and perhaps even the courage to press charges against that child molester. Anonymity has often been 'dissed' on this forum. But this is one instance where it IS valid - insofar as it would be an attempt to protect a victim from further unwanted consequences of that abuse. To that end, the replacing of Abi's name in those posts would NOT be revisionism as such, simply for the reason that the nature of the abuse that took place would not be altered one jot. As for Rawat, it will forever be a major blot on his copybook, and one that he'll have to live with the consequences of, as long as the truth about his shady past is freely accessible on the internet (or elsewhere). IMO, the 'spear' analogy that Chris Bray used is not only emotive, but inaccurate. Nonetheless I respect his motives, and his position, coming, as it does, so soon after the trauma of exiting from Maharaji/Rawat's so-called 'kingdom'.

Subject: where is EV reference? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:38:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probably a complete dunderhead here but I've just hunted all over the Prem Rawat site and the EV site and can't find any reference to abuse and/or how to report it. Where is it, because it certainly aint obvious, well, not to me anyway... Livia

Subject: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:52:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, EV's concession is a small step in the right direction, but a very small step. It's under 'About Elan Vital' and then in very small print, 'policies'. Even on that page there is a prominent menu on the left, but 'policies' is missing. I doubt I would have found it without being told, and you and BT below have posted here saying you couldn't find it. It is clear EV is not being sincere in their offer, otherwise it would be highlighted on their home page, not tucked away in a disused toilet under the stairs. John.

Subject: Re: where is EV reference? From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The policy is stated as follows: POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously.' This is tantamount to the Catholic Church's 'hotline for victims of abuse,' IMO. Cynthia http://www.elanvital.org/policies.html About EV, Policies www.elanvital.org/policies.html

Subject: Everything's Gone From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: The Anything Goes Forum plus my other sites have been removed from the web. This is due to my own personal and health reasons and not because of any person online. AG had outlived its use and was past its sell-by date. I should mention that I have been somewhat appalled by how online communication has developed and don't really feel a part of it. I think there's better things to do than spend time arguing with people one doesn't know in real life about things which are irrelevant to ones own life. The internet can be a very useful tool and information medium but I feel that things can get out of hand and one can spend too much time putting energy into a fruitless task. I also don't like the way in which words are used to insult other people and this is all the more abhorent when the people concerned don't even know each other. Someone once said, ''The internet is an interesting waste of time'' and I'd agree that that can become the case if one isn't careful. It's been very useful though in showing people who the real Maharaji is and I'm glad I've played a part in that. I'm also glad that through the net, I've been able to find news of former friends and even though the news wasn't always good, I am glad I got the information, for which I am grateful. The Great Worldwide Linkup is still online and I think it serves a useful purpose. However, when the curtain falls on one's own particular act, one must take a bow and then leave the stage. So good luck to all you people who I've had communication with. I might still post something now and then on one of the forums. Just don't hold your breath though. Anyone can email me at sirdavid12@hotmail.com if they want. Cheers, Dave.

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: Jennifer To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir D, God, I loved your story about guarding the cheese. That was a Best of the Forum, for sure. Enjoy your life, no pun intended! Jennifer

Subject: What about 'The Secret Garden'? From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:01:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just the other day,you announced that you were starting a new password-protected forum called 'The Scret Garden'. Is that gone too?

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: CD To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:38:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is a major nuisance that people can not contribute their viewpoints without attacking or being attacked. The on-line experiments seem to indicate that that is the way it is. Certainly anyone can now start up new on-line forums to offer new types of meeting places. David has done his share and now other people have the chance to give the experiment a go. There is always hope that good can arise from the muck. But it won't happen without giving it a good go. Cheers, CD

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: Pat W To: CD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:23:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CD, I would say that this forum is a major success, because, despite having to have put up with it's fair share of 'muck', people still use it to engage in thoughtful, civilised discussion. Also the agenda here is quite clearly to discuss matters of principle about Maharaji and Knowledge. In short there is a real need for this place to exist -it is not the brainchild of one person - it is the response to a wider need. It has become the silently elected 'official' meeting place for ex-premies for the time being in a way. Even if Gerry packed this place up tomorrow I am absolutely certain that another Ex-Premie forum would be started and up and running within days - functioning as the focal point for the many people who really need to talk about this stuff or just read and resonate with the revolution of risque 'ex-premie' thinking. If anything I think those other forums have lately been providing a place where people apparently can bitch to their hearts content about the dynamic of this forum and various persons here. As far as I'm concerned I'd far rather they griped there since the discussion here is really going somewhere whether they like it or not and whether or not they can't see beyond the personalities that they would like to fight with ad nauseam. If any good is being achieved by these forums my medal would go to this place for championing the cause of the weak and weary who don't fit into Maharaji's world. By the way 'Life's Great' here too you know. Welcome.

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: michael donner To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:13:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks sir dave for hanging in there are long as you have and for contriibuting as much as you have. be well. enjoy more fruitful adventures!

Subject: report from the lost colony Dave. From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:09:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Sir David, Speaking of 'everythings gone', Here is my morning reading from the financial world over here across the pond. I would call this post 'everything's going'. How long depends on various things, but we should live to see it. I hope you will make another forum for you to do for some selective invitees. I would like to continue to read your mad ramblings. Champion tax cutter and ardent “supply-sider” Arthur B. Laffer provided an interesting commentary, Keep the Dollar Strong, in Monday’s Wall Street Journal. From the opening paragraph: “...The value of the dollar is moving center stage in policy debates. The basic issue is whether the U.S. economy is benefited or hurt by the extraordinary strength of the U.S. dollar in the foreign exchanges.” We’ll take exception immediately. The issue of whether a strong dollar is helpful to the economy or not would have been meaningful debate a few years back, and we would have argued forcefully for policies protecting a sound and stable dollar. But the issue is today basically moot, as dollar strength or weakness has been left in the hands of market dynamics. We owe several trillion to foreign-sourced lenders and it is they who will now dictate the exchange value of our currency. The time to protect the soundness of the dollar was back when the U.S. financial sector began to create dollar claims in gross excess; claims increasingly accumulated abroad. We don’t remember the likes of Art Laffer, Larry Kudlow, or other proponents of “king dollar” being very helpful on the policy front when it mattered. Actually, they were too often leading the cause of misunderstanding, making a mockery out of analyzing the processes that have for years worked quietly to put our currency at today’s significant risk. From Laffer: “Americans invest in America merely by accumulating capital. But foreigners can only invest in America by moving goods to the U.S. in exchange for claims on U.S.-located assets. More simply, higher returns in the U.S. induced foreigners and Americans to move capital to the U.S., causing an international capital surplus for the U.S. A larger U.S. capital surplus is one and the same as a larger trade deficit. It’s as simple as that.” But it’s not that simple, and Mr. Laffer’s analysis has actually been quite flawed. First of all, Americans and foreigners “invest” in American assets using basically the same means: liquid dollar balances. Domestic investors don’t trade “capital” for securities. Rather, they generally exchange bank and money market fund deposits. Similarly, foreign financial players don’t call Goldman Sachs and say, “I have 100 containers loaded with DVD players arriving in Long Beach next week that I’d like to trade for that hot convert deal you’re bringing to market.” Foreigners use liquid dollar balances also, and we would argue that most exporters of goods to the U.S. likely exchange dollar balances at home for their local currencies, leaving these dollar-denominated claims to be accumulated by financial players quite removed from commerce and goods trading. As the dollar today sinks and our trade deficit is poised to widen, it is even more nonsensical to hold to this boom-time fallacy that foreign financial flows (“capital surplus”?) are the cause of our trade deficits. Foreign flows should be recognized as more generally the “effect” of the recycling of domestically generated Credit excess. It is an inarguable fact that we have been running unmatched current account deficits, while accumulating unprecedented foreign liabilities. Any use of the word “surplus” is inappropriate at best. It often appears the bullish consensus goes out of its way to confuse this basic issue. That unrelenting trade deficits can be painted as a sign of economic health goes far in illuminating the power nowadays of economic spin. The key to better understanding these processes is to focus on how dollar balances are created. Specifically, new financial assets come into existence through the creation of new financial liabilities – through the lending/Credit creation process. We can avoid the chicken or the egg dilemma by directing our attention to the U.S. financial sector and recognizing the key borrowing and lending mechanisms. Since we have been in the midst of unprecedented domestic Credit creation (new financial liabilities), additional dollar balances (corresponding new financial assets) have been created in great excess. There is a common misperception that the exchange value of dollars previously created by the Fed is the current concern, when in fact the critical issue of dollar vulnerability involves various dollar-denominated claims created in gross excess by myriad financial institutions and market participants. Largely, these claims have been created through the intermediation of American consumer and corporate borrowings. In the case of U.S. households, we have found it advantageous to take on additional mortgage and consumer debt, while at the same time funding retirement accounts and playing the stock market. As is evidenced by the $2.5 trillion increase (44%) in broad money supply during the past four years, dollar balances have accumulated throughout the U.S. financial system. As one would expect, this enormous consumer-lending boom has fostered over-consumption. Household borrowings have financed unprecedented trade imbalances, with current account deficits mushrooming to surpass $100 billion quarterly. Consequently, unprecedented dollar balances have also accumulated throughout the global financial system. These dollar balances, by their very nature, are a means of payment for dollar denominated assets – real and financial – and by and large return to the U.S. financial sector (where they originated) in exchange for U.S. financial claims (to purchase securities or accumulate bank/money market deposits). The ongoing accumulation of financial claims – domestically and internationally – is the residual of unrelenting Credit excess, and using the terminology “capital surplus” is silly and only unnecessarily confuses a most important issue. We will admit to being rather intrigued by the timing and content of Dr. Laffer’s article. For a number of years we have had to listen to the erroneous analysis that our trade deficits were a sign of economic health, caused by what were trumpeted as sustainable foreign capital inflows. It pained us to listen. We’ll cut to the chase a bit by highlighting his concluding sentences. “Higher returns abroad and lower returns in the U.S. mean reduced U.S. capital inflows, lower U.S. trade deficits, and, yes, a weaker dollar. If the U.S. wishes to maintain our leadership role in the world economy, we’ve got to proceed undaunted in our pro-growth agenda. Just talking about a strong dollar won’t cut it. In the words of Nobel Prize-winning economist Robert Mundell, we need tight money and tax cuts -- and then we’ll have prosperity, asset appreciation, employment growth, and a strong dollar.” Dr. Laffer is either incredibly naive, surprisingly misinformed, or possesses one heck of an optimistic soul. If our goal was to maintain our leadership role in the world economy, we should have been more mindful of how much we borrowed and how it was spent. We should have over the years also been champions for a stable global financial system committed to addressing and rectifying imbalances. As the leading instigator of excess, we did nothing of the kind. The consequences of years of unsound financial boom today leave the U.S. system virtually assured of enormous state and federal deficits and vulnerable asset markets. There will be no tax cuts. Previous extreme Credit and speculative excess render the U.S. system acutely fragile. There will be no “tight money.” The highly leveraged U.S. financial sector would buckle. The Fed today sees little alternative than to bet the ranch and run with an extended period of extreme accommodation. There will be no strong dollar. There is a price to be paid for previous gross excess. Whether they realize it or not, the Laffers, Kudlows and ardent “supply-siders” are in the process of losing the battle, and there will be many casualties. They were given an incredible opportunity and blew it. The pendulum will now swing the other way, and they will likely become great finger pointers. We will be in only greater need of economic statesmen. We were for tax cuts, responsible deregulation of the real economy, and free markets. The problem was that the whole exercise became all about ideology and little about sound economics. They readily accepted an unharnessed Credit system. It was fun to believe in painless economic miracles, but now we are left with the reality of a huge mess. Booms breed brilliance, but going forward it will suddenly seem in very short supply. The irony of the damage done to the cause of free markets by its most vocal proponents recalls George Orwell’s Animal Farm. We do not expect historians will be kind. Sure, there were clear policies for nurturing a boom, but absolutely no parameters or even a willingness to address the potential for problematic excess. It regressed into little more than intellectual economic fascism. Not only was it branded contemptible to consider systemic vulnerabilities, it was outright heresy to contemplate it could all end in a huge bust. Somehow it was lost that lower taxes and business deregulation were only the “means” to stimulate the sound investment necessary for the “ends” of stable and sustainable growth. There is no magic elixir, although at times many seemed to take on the persona of snake oil salesmen. Along the way sound economic principles were thrown out the window. There was absolute refusal to recognize that over borrowing and consumption might go to extremes, and that these held potential risks as covert archenemies of sound and sustainable prosperity. There was seemingly never a concern for the nature of borrowing (financing consumption or investment) or the composition of economic output. Growth for the sake of growth, as reckless borrowing and spending became the hallmark of economic success. There was blind disregard that Credit and speculative excess – and resulting monetary disorder – are anathema to an effectively functioning free market pricing mechanism. To question the soundness of the boom was to be an enemy of the faith. The financial system was cut completely loose, with little regard for what should have been obvious consequences. Using George Soros’ terminology, “market fundamentalism” took hold in our thinking and policymaking. Just keep the faith, ignore Credit excess, and disregard rampant speculation. Trust that Wall Street acting in its best interest was in the system’s best interest. Trust that management was to act on behalf of their shareholders. Whatever it takes to get stock prices higher is what’s for the good of the “system.” Dangerous asset inflation became, in the words of Larry Kudlow, “wealth creation.” Have faith that the accountants will be accountants and rating agencies rating agencies, instead of entrepreneurs in an environment with ultra easy money providing fortunes for the taking. It became an article of faith that leveraged speculation is the epitome of “efficient” contemporary financial markets. Just believe that derivatives are a modern financial miracle. Never question the faith. A runaway Credit system and wildcat finance were sold as a great victory for deregulation, free markets, and a New Paradigm of “efficient” finance. Enormous trade deficits and the dangerous accumulation of unprecedented foreign liabilities were sold as the wondrous benefits of free trade, globalization, and American might. Apparently, we were forced to over borrow and consume because foreigners were desperate for our dollars to buy our securities. They dumped goods upon us in their quest for our stocks and bonds. All the while, the “fundamentalists” had absolutely no tolerance for opposing views, choosing instead to fashion creative propaganda to convince the public that there really was such a thing as a perpetual free lunch. Even gross excess entailed no cost. Even today, we are encouraged to just keep borrowing and spending. The most frustrating aspect for us has been this ardent determination to ignore the long history of Credit and speculation-induced booms turned painful bust. Yet, the obstinacy against learning from more distant history has only been surpassed by the fanaticism of distorting more recent financial fiascos. It’s been a pathetic case of crafting every potential valuable lesson into a “how to” book for making the same mistakes but only on a much larger scale – “The Idiots Guide to Reckless Excess,” or “Financial Debacle for Dummies.” The Japanese experience with a runaway Credit system, rampant asset inflation, and a Bubble economy was used as propaganda supporting the superiority of the American brand of Capitalism. Throughout, we were conditioned to hold unwavering confidence in the Greenspan Fed. Alan Greenspan learned from Japan’s experience that, above all, never let the boom end. The “hot money” component of the Mexican collapse was conveniently ignored, as the speculators quickly learned that if they were all crowded into the same market (especially if they were accompanied by the major U.S. institutions), the Fed, Treasury, IMF, etc. would be swift with bailouts. A grander collapse caused by a “hot money” exodus from SE Asia was cleverly construed as just comeuppance for the iniquity of “crony capitalism.” Again, instead of addressing the danger of Credit-induced financial and economic imbalances and wildcat global finance - as well as examining the true source of the mushrooming and increasingly destabilizing “hot money” and the potential for this powerful virus to infect the U.S. - the emphasis remained creating propaganda glorifying the supremacy of the American system. Rather than responding to repeated warning signs of a malfunctioning global financial system, it became a case at home of nurturing overconfidence, as well as a reckless determination to push only more firmly on the accelerator. It too often seemed like a case of inviting the hot money speculators to play at our casino, assuring them that we would wine and dine them, while protecting them from the harsh treatment they had suffered at the hands of others. Emerging economies would solve their monetary problems by adopting an Argentine-style U.S. dollar currency board regime or, better yet, completely dollarize. Rules were made up as we went along, even if they made no economic sense whatsoever. That we have witnessed wild financial excess, increasingly unstable markets, and conspicuous economic imbalances should be absolutely of no surprise. That we have made few friends in the process is similarly no mystery. But it is difficult to believe that we are so far into this process, yet the consensus view holds staunchly that things are fine and it’s business as usual. The more vulnerable the system, the more extreme the Fed’s accommodation of further excess. We are then told how resilient and strong are underlying fundamentals. Our passions have been running especially high because of our conviction that the current course is certain to turn what would have been a deep recession into a protracted depression with risk of financial collapse. So we have Dr. Laffer and others trumpeting the “we’ve got to proceed undaunted in our pro-growth agenda.” At the same time he calls for a strong dollar. But the dilemma today is that our acutely fragile financial sector and hopelessly unsound Bubble economy require enormous continued rampant Credit excess. At the same time, indelible monetary processes direct finance specifically to sectors demonstrating an inflationary bias. Finance floods into the housing sector and races to fuel consumption. The system is geared up to create additional financial claims, while little economic value is added in the process. “Undaunted” and content to stay the course? Pro-growth or pro-Bubble? And we expect our foreign financiers to look kindly upon all of this? Relative returns on U.S. assets are today increasingly unattractive, rendering our trade deficits problematic (as they have not been during recent years). Interestingly, Dr. Laffer admits, “Things have changed. The tech bubble, and every other asset bubble, has burst.” Unfortunately, this is a case of wishful thinking, as the Fed and U.S. financial sector ensured that a collapsing technology Bubble only fueled greater Bubbles in mortgage finance and throughout the U.S. Credit market. The problem with disregarding Credit and speculative excess is that they have a proclivity of running completely out of control if not squelched. Instead of squelching, we nurture. The serious dollar crisis commences when these larger Bubbles begin to deflate. We will then likely face the risk of a run on dollar assets. Do foreign players sense that that the Fed sees little alternative than a desperate attempt to inflate its way out of trouble? What troubled me most as I read through Dr. Laffer’s article was not obvious disregard for reality or the weak analysis. Rather, I had the sense that I was reading the initial salvo of what we fully expect to be an ongoing battle with historical revisionism. We will admit to being on guard for a contemporary version of Milton Friedman claiming the “Roaring Twenties” boom was sound – that mistakes were only made later. I can hear it now, “If only the U.S. had stuck with its strong dollar policy and the Fed would have instigated “tight money,” continued U.S. prosperity would have been assured.” The 1990s will be painted as the golden age of U.S. capitalism. And how could the Fed, the administration, and Congress all have made such a mess of things starting in 2002? We view misanalysis and obfuscation as to the causes of The Great Depression as partially responsible for the “Roaring Nineties.” Continued obfuscation of the dangers of Credit and speculative excess is a disservice, and we are ready... We have been amazed with “analysis” that wants us to believe that the various SE Asian and emerging market economies erred when they “devalued” their currencies. Devalued? They individually suffered post-Bubble runs against their economies’ financial assets and currencies, and central bankers were rendered absolutely impotent by brute market forces. Enormous foreign liabilities had accumulated during the halcyon days of boom and faith in miracle economies. But when booms waned and a non-miracle reality led the “hot money” and fearful domestic wealth holders to panic, central bank foreign currency reserves were woefully inadequate to meet the demand of legions of sellers. But this is precisely the risk associated with accumulating large foreign liabilities, and why central bankers should act strongly against ongoing trade deficits and guard against speculative financial flows. Those here in the U.S. so determined to ignore these crucial issues during the boom have made a critical analytical blunder. Almost without exception, when previous booms began to wane, foreign central bankers appreciated the risk of a flight out of their countries’ financial assets and currencies. They generally acted aggressively. Interest rates were increased, in many cases dramatically, but to no avail. The damage had been done during the previous boom. The dollar’s performance will not be determined by prospective policies. Rather, we must wait to better gauge to what extent the holders of our foreign liabilities accumulated during the boom are held by long-term investors, as opposed to “hot money” speculators. We must hope that foreign investors remain confident in the underlying economic value of assets supporting dollar claims. We must fear that they will look askance to the continued creation of financial claims as diluting their stake in limited U.S. economic wealth-creating capacity. We must hope that financial players have not borrowed excessively in foreign currencies to finance holdings of higher-yielding dollar assets. Such dynamics are inevitably prone to illiquidity and financial accidents. We are left to fear that dollar risk lies in wait somewhere in the murky world of derivatives, as it did throughout SE Asia, Russia and elsewhere. It should be recognized as absolutely unacceptable that our nation’s financial security today hangs on such a fragile balance. That we just don’t know our position- that we must ponder the possibility that we may be at the edge of financial abyss is a travesty. Sound policies simply would never allow our nation’s financial position to be so vulnerable. I would like to hear the Laffers and Kudlows of the world admit as much. The bottom line is that the Fed is today impotent to create the true economic wealth that would lend support to this fragile edifice of dollar financial claims. Instead, the Fed remains trapped in a losing game of aggressively manipulating short-term interest rates, assuring marketplace liquidity, and protecting the wide spreads that so entice the financial speculators. And monetary processes ensure only a greater gap between dollar claims and true economic wealth creating capacity. Perhaps Dr. Laffer will eventually get his way with “tight money.” But be careful for what you wish for. For now, extremely low short-term rates keep the leveraged speculating game working. But if this game falters, the Fed may at some point find itself in the same boat as other central bankers. The Fed may be forced to raise rates in an attempt to keep the hot money from turning cold on dollar assets. We do agree completely with Dr. Laffer when he states, “Once a weak dollar catches hold, it tends to be reinforcing.” But that’s precisely why it must be the Fed’s number one priority to protect the stability of the U.S. financial system and the soundness of its currency. It is not the Fed’s role to blindly stimulate growth and to go to extreme measures to forestall corrective recessions. Downturns are a critical and necessary aspect of sound and vibrant Capitalistic systems. As we have witnessed first hand, central bankers’ mistakes beget bigger mistakes, and it is incumbent upon our policymakers not to risk catastrophic error. Well, we’re in the midst of one. We also agree that the trade deficit will narrow, although we are anything but sanguine as to the circumstances that will force this necessary adjustment. In the near-term, a faltering dollar and continued rampant domestic Credit excess provide a potent combination for escalating deficits. We suspect that market sentiment has changed, and fears of spiraling deficits will work to reinforce currency weakness. It is this type of dynamic that holds potential for an inevitable crisis in confidence.

Subject: This forum From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:39:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you have ever participated in any other online forums (whose topics are serious) you will have seen that disruptors (known as trolls) are not tolerated. Sure, some heated arguments take place and even fights and hurt feelings. Why, even on Andy's orchid forum there was once a real battle. People flame each other on the other forums I go to (opera and ancient Greece) and can be quite vicious and insulting. On the computer geek forums that Chuck frequents people are pretty blunt to each other and have zero tolerance for stupidity. In fact on no serious adult forums are anonymous snipers, intruders who have no business there or disruptors tolerated to the extent that they have been here. When I first came to the forum a year and a half ago I was astonished by the dysfunctionality of it. Two or three obviously nasty and misanthropic people were tolerated or humored just because they were exes. I cut them the same slack as the oldtimers did out of solidarity. No other adult forum on the net would have put up with it. I put it down to the oldtimers' loyalty to any ex regardless and also to the fact that Catweasel and other obvious cult disruptors were constantly fouling the atmosphere and making the environment so toxic that the oldtimers had stopped noticing the stench. (If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about - just take a look at the premie forum, Life is Great.) I became so inured to it that I got sucked into the dysfunctionality of it to the extent that I had sleepless nights chasing cultweasels around defending Deborah (who is now posting darshan stories on LG and blowing air kisses to her former enemies) not to mention her numerous emails per day all screaming Block him! Delete him!. This would not have been tolerated anywhere else on the net. I took it for granted because the cultweasels introduced such a mental sickness into the proceedings that I felt that it was natural, given that we were up against a sick cult. There is a big difference since I took a stance against the cultweasels and especially since I blocked them last week. I just got sick of them all pouncing on new posters. They would have been all over Chris Bray like cockroaches. Of course all I have really done is block them from posting under the names with which we are familiar. The cult monitors don't post. They read and analyse and will try again I'm sure. But the dysfunctionality of some of the exes had given these guys a foot in the door up till now. Now that the most obviously disturbed exes such as Salam and Deborah(sorry to be so un-PC but I can't be bothered to split hairs - I'm sure you know what I mean even if you don't agree with me) have marginalized themselves, the atmosphere of the forum is clearer and I don't think people will fall victim to cultweasels as easily. At least the sickness will stick out starker against the backdrop of sanity. This has been happening slowly but surely anyway. To cut a long story short, all I know is that the glimpses I have caught of the diehard cult mentality (Cerise, CAC, Catweasel, Glasser, the attack on EPO) has made me realize that these people are definitely not the Shiny People Cult. They're clever, ruthless and rotten to the core. I would not put it past them to plan an elaborate, sick and twisted scheme to discredit EPO and the forum. I'm not going to get my tits in a tangle about it though as I am too busy (praise the lord we have been very busy lately - well busier than last year - still not back to our former turning people away busy) because I still think the best way to handle any disruptions is to basically ignore them when they start planting the seeds of discord and then block them as soon as you figure out all the IPs they use. This will be my last post for a while. I'll still be here to help Gerry with the janitorial work but I will have to stop making posts as I won't have time to respond. But my take on it is not to take the cultweasels too seriously. They love that. Let's face it - M and his cult are very small fry. The premies absolutely love to be taken so seriously as they are by us. Most of them are so insignificant in reality. I will stop hounding Salam about the recent anti-ex website because I don't know if I am on a wild goose chase or not but that does not mean that I will stop being skeptical of him. He still has not answered my question about doing that site. He has made stupid jokes about it and hemmed and hawed. If he's really just a plain old nut then perhaps he is just enjoying the attention. Nuts like Salam and Deborah love getting attention on the net. In real life they are ignored, feared or laughed at so they go online to get attention. One day I'll move on and someone else will be helping to FA. Meantime I just hope to keep the forum sane. If it goes back to the way it was with Salam inanely shouting Rawat sucks and Deb screaming her imbecilities all over the forum, then I will know the cult has won. And the weapon they used? Create an atmosphere where such dysfunctional behavior is accepted. As long as I am around Deborah and Salam and the known cultweasels are blocked from here. If you want to read their rants, go to LG or AG. The forum is currently a sane, sensible, friendly and adult environment. The cultweasels may come back through another door but meantime have some good clean fun.

Subject: Re: This forum From: Bai Ji To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:11:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Pat, Thank you for your sane, intelligent posts. First and formost though, thank you for the help you afforded me. It is through you, and people like you here on this Forum, that insight and healing become available to hearts that are breaking. Please consider hanging around as I know I speak for more than myself when I say that you shall be sorely missed. Love Bai Ji

Subject: you'll be back From: Roger eDrek To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:05:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not that I want you to neglect your business or anything, but you're posts are always a good read. Yet, the Forums can be quite exhausting and debilitating when they go awry.

Subject: You deserve a well-earned break Pat From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:19:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You deserve a well-earned break Pat. It's not often I voice my support for the behind-the scenes 'blood, sweat and tears' that must go into maintaining a very public forum like this, but now seems to be a pertinent time. You've not had a break for ages, it seems (remember that old saying which goes: 'not since granny got her tits caught in the mangle and whitewashed the ceiling'?) Bests to you and Chuck, Chris

Subject: Re: This forum From: bill To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:25:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there Pat C, I came sailing in a couple days ago from my work world and posted my missive from the outfield and it must have not had the tweak and mirth I thought it had. Oh well ! Hope it didnt go down the wrong pipe or anything. I probably should have aimed it all at James or just not hit 'post reply' I have been a bit surprised at the thirst for engaging many folks here have. Good ex's reading trollclown posts and responding in detail. I know some folks in 3d that are happy to torment without end, and well, we got some here. Maybe they are raging alchoholics. Hell, one of them may be rawat ! What else does he have to do? He must blame us for the demise of his revenue stream. He must blame us for ruining his chances for a great re-emergence. That crown is waiting, and he wants to wear it in public again. I bet he does post here sometimes. You might have talked to him !

Subject: bill's lost post From: gerry To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:51:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:09:29 (PDT) Original: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:18:29 (PDT) Posted by: bill --- --oh Pat, Recipient: PatC Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; AT&T WNS5.0; .NET CLR 1.0.2914) Subject: ''Jim, Nigel, me....'' aint atheists Message: Just evidence based. If there is evidence, and the evidence allows for something, then only that something is validated. I never did get to read what secret Deborah revealed about Jimmie, but my guess was that it was that Jimmie dons that box on the forehead and bobs in front of a jewish shrine once in a spiritual blue moon. Your cancelled checks to bal bhagwan Ji when you were trying to cover your spiritual ass since the split in 74 really was a shocker, but pales in comparison to your recent habit of falling to your knees after clicking ''post reply'' and nailing another diatribe against god on the forum. Such behaviour, while practised in other forms by lawyers, is simply reprehensable when done by you as you push yet another ex off the cliff to non-belief. Comon, fess up, your mouse pad is really a bible. (edit this message) (Printer Friendly Version) (Send To Friend) Your Name:

Subject: bill did you know... From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 09:56:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone has recently used your name on a post which threaten violence towards you-know-who. I deleted the threating post and blocked the IP. Five minutes later I received and e-mail from Bjorn (that's right bjorn, it traced right back to you and had your name and email address on it you stupid ass) which contained a virus.

Subject: please explain nt. From: Ulf To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:21:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gerry...please explain... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:20:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been trying to get Bill to email me for months. I knew him in Hartford long ago. We were friends. What's going on? please email me sylviecyn@yahoo.com

Subject: What does this mean, Gerry? From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:16:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I don't understand. ???

Subject: Re: This forum From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your posts have been informative amusing and helpfull to me. Thank you and good luck with everything LOL Bolly

Subject: yes but From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 18:31:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sure it makes the forum clearer and less messy, but it also has a hint of ban the bongoes that we all remember so well from premiedom, ie they're in their mind, blah de blah. The problem is that I suspect all of us involved in the cultish side of gmj dom had a mental health problem of some sort or other, if not a high %. We were too sensitive for this world, or we wanted to be happy all the time, or we wanted not to have to think for ourselves, or we had father issues to resolve from our childhood, or we wanted happy endings for everyone, all signs of mental health issues. When you then add the leaving, after decades in many instances, then is it surprizing there are larger mental health issues. Now I'm not advocating that we should be a mental health support group, that should be done professionally and we don't have the funds, but I am saying that this issue seems to have been left out of the equation in recent discussions. More than once recently, and I've been avoiding this fight like the plague, I've seen people with I suspect serious ussues being referred to as nuts, gaga, out to lunch, not exact quotes but exactly the vibe. Having worked in areas professionally where mental health issues were a key component I know how unhelpful such an approach should be, apart from my own experience a couple of times of strong depression. Comments like that can be unbelievably wounding, and can cause serious aggravation of the condition. And if you are one of those people who thinks there are 'loonies on the loose', then I suggest you thank your lucky stars that you got out of the cult without these kind of problems and step back a bit. Surely otherwise by getting sucked into stuff you are displaying exactly the same lack of discretion and discrimination others are being accused of. Maybe also a serious naivete if you thought you could support people with such issues and then be surprized if they react in unexpected ways. Just playing devils advocate here Pat to fill out the picture. Ohh and a shame if you are leaving from posting, that spiritual thread was out of the conlon top drawer in my opinion, a strong return to form, and the pat c I know and love.

Subject: No, Ham, I don't buy that at all From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ham, Many times over the years people have suggested that something we were doing here was reminiscent or reflective of the cult programming we endured. I've never found any merit in any of those arguments and, with all due respect, this one's no different. Any group eventually faces issues of maintaining order that allows it to function properly. So what if the cult had its own version of disruption problems and its own way of handling them? Big deal. The cult also raised money. Does that mean that any attempt by Gerry, Chuck or JHB to defray costs by asking for donations has a 'hint' of the cult about it? The cult also sought publicity. Does that mean that anything we do in that regard has the 'hint' of the cult about it? The cult had some strong voices (well one in particular). So does that mean that any strong voices here suggest a 'hint' of cult? The cult had consensus on certain matters (to say the least!). Does that mean any consensus here has the 'hint' of cult about it? Honestly, I've never seen a single thing we say or do that even comes close to a being a 'hint' of cultishness. Nothing. I imagine that there are other former this or former that groups in the world. My guess is that very few, if any, have the hint of cultishness about them. We're no different except for the thing we're former members of happens to be a cult. Now sure, if we started worshipping Nigel, say, and called him our fearless leader and deferred to his judgement without question, any of that kind of stuff, then, for sure, one could rightly say we were taking on some of the traits of the very cult we condemn. But I haven't seen one iota of that. If you think you have, please explain and we can talk about it further. Of course such criticisms are in fact a blight on your heart but, if you have them, smoke 'em. It's your life, after all. If you want to take those risks, go for it. :)

Subject: Call me eccentric...:) From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:09:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Hamzen, First let me say that there is no way that this forum or EPO could or should, IMO, take on the task of addressing serious mental health issues. One reason is because of the limiting format of a internet forum. The other is liability. I can't imagine any professional placing themself in that vulnerable position. You probably would agree with that. For the record, I have discussed in private with Pat the pitfalls of name-calling using terms related to emotional and mental health. In the U.S. at least, consumers of the mental health care industry (and it is an industry) have worked to remove the stigma of the labels given to us by health care professionals. The labels I'm referring to are the ones given as diagnoses, not 'loonie, insane, neurotic, crazy,' etc., you get the picture. I've been out front about my emotional disorder, DID, MPD, call it what you want. But because it is a very misunderstood label, I've taken my share of verbal abuse by the other side of the fight, i.e., the Deborah alliance or whatever it is. At the beginning of the fight I became enraged and called some of these people bad names, but only once referred to the particular label which Selene has reported here on the ex-premie forum. After my initial rants I backed off and did try to have some communication with these individuals, particularly Deborah, but received explosive, name-calling, insulting, and nasty retorts. So I've given up trying to communicate with her and the rest. Everyone from the ex-premie forum who tried to have a civil discourse with her has received the same treatment, including Marianne, who has stayed out of the fight. Deborah broad-brushed all ex-premies as a cult and has apparently returned to the Maharaji Cult. On AG and LG, each of these individuals with the assistance of certain anonymous and regular trolls here has contributed to a 'hate Cynthia' campaign by starting ridiculous threads about MPD, re-naming me Cyanide or Cynanide, and having great sick fun about multiple personalities. So be it. I can take it, I'm a strong person. I think it's childish and immature, but they've done it and I've moved on. Besides the fact that I like Pat and Jim, one reason they hate me is because I challenged Salam on AG to come out of his homophobic closet because of various nasty comments about Pat's sexual orientation. He claimed he didn't know what homophobia was so I explained. What resulted was another thread of gay-bashing at Pat's expense, which was insulting to me as a human being, not because of my association with Pat Conlon. The gay hate campaign was allowed by Dave on AG and he even joined in while he had a warning at the top of the forum telling people that it was not acceptable. I really didn't understand that. He called it innocent fun?!? Dave took on this disgruntled group of ex-ex-premies as a cause of some sort because the women, in particular, were complaining to him of being abused verbally by Pat and Jim. But Dave wasn't fair about it. Because I've never been a regular poster at AG, Dave took on a protective role for 'the other side' as it were, and when I asked him about the verbal abuse and name calling against me right there on the AG board, he brushed me off. I told Dave I thought he was practicing a double standard and that was that. I stopped posting on AG and LG except for the occasional response when I read them using my name in an insulting way. Every time I tried to enter into a civil conversation on AG I was ganged up on, called mental health types of names and was essentially ostracized. This type of posting on both the LG and AG forums led me to the conclusion that these people were actually playing a type of evil mind manipulating game and I refuse to participate. I have watched this happen over the past weeks and it is surely a sick thing happening. But these are middle-aged adults, who, like me or anyone else, is responsible for how they behave, what they say, and for taking care of themselves if they do in fact have a serious mental or emotional malady. Your concerns about the mental health of premies and exiting premies are valid. I have those same concerns too. I don't think by having a strict policy of banning anonymous and known trolls is the same as excluding anyone who comes here who happens to be labeled as mentally ill and presents certain behavior because of a particular disorder. There are support references on EPO with links to reFocus, and other anti-cult sites which are helpful to those who may think they are in need of private outside counseling. I make it a point to make a link here when I sense there is a problem not being addressed by an individual, in order to point them in the direction of real world help. There is also RE which new exiters can apply to. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is one prominent affliction that can and does happen frequently to exiting cult members. Dissociative disorders, too. So I think that when viewing the entire picture of 'the fight' and the reality of how this forum is now operating is important to take into consideration. We've witnessed a distinct division. I don't believe that any newly exiting premies can say when they come here they are automatically dismissed as insane. What I've seen especially lately, is that they are welcomed and encouraged to post if they choose. I think what's gone on in the past few months has been a healthy thing overall. When I come to this forum I know I won't be ridiculed or demeaned because of my particular mental health label. It did happen in the distant past, but that is water long gone under the bridge and I now see this forum as flourishing with new exes having good conversations. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Insanity - calling a spade a shovel From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:31:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not surprised that it was you who tackled me on this subject as it is controversial and I bet a lot of people have said ''ten foot pole'' to themselves when they read my post. I'm glad you raised the subject of insanity. Discussing it has been long overdue. It would have been insane of me to ignore your post. So, yep, I'm back to make one more response because your points are excellent. It was even fairly well-written - probably one of the least difficult of your contributions to understand thus far. Let's face it - you can sometimes sound like a koan - to me at least. But at least you don't shy away from controversy. Okay, I'll define what I mean by insanity. I've labelled a couple of folks with whom I've had fights on the forums as insane, crazy, nuts, loony - you name it, I've said it and I've meant it. I was not using the epithet ''insane'' in the legal sense or even the clinical sense but in a common sense way. Charlotte, the local yenta, a German immigrant who owns two adjacent houses on our street worth nearly a million dollars, lives in one house and stores cardboard, plastic, newspapers, bottles and other rubbish in the other - not for recycling but for plain old hoarding. When I talk to some of my neighbors about her I have to be careful what I say. They are very politically correct in this most politically-correct city in the States. Fortunately with most of my neighbors I can say straight out that I think she's nuts. By that I mean that she is irrational. Her behavior is irrational and nonsensical - hoarding utterly useless rubbish in a half million buck house which could give her an income of 3 or 4 thousand a month in rent. That's stupid. Okay maybe just eccentric. Okay - she's eccentric nuts. One man's meat etc. But my neighbors who've been around for a while also know another side to Charlotte. She really has a very evil streak - her innate German schadenfreude is polluted with a vicious delight in creating trouble, sowing the seeds of discord between neighbors and spreading fear and suspicion with some really ugly rumors. She usually only practices her mischief on the new ones who don't know her well yet. With most of my neighbors we can nod our heads in agreement and say plainly that she is not only eccentric nuts but evilly insane. With my ultra-PC neighbors who have not yet been caught in Charlotte's web of deceit, I have to talk about her cricumspectly. I warn them tactfully: ''I don't want to prejudice you against her BUT be careful. She's upset a lot of people.'' But with the ultra-PC folks who've been around for a while and do know her, well, I can call a spade a spade even with them. We all agree - she's insane. Not just nuts. Nuts is kind of harmless. Insane is harmful. I can't talk about insanity from the clinical psychiatric point of view because I don't like the shrink biz and think most of the people who get into the business do it because they're crazy and want to figure out why. I understand the legal definition but even that has been polluted with psycho-babble, vide the ''Twinkie Defense''of Dan White who assassinated the queer politician Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone the year after I moved to SF. Anyway, the only way I can talk about insanity is from the moral or maybe common sense point of view. According to this point of view - I am insane for being queer. Not being PC, I agree. Being queer IS crazy. Why would one chose to be queer? It's a ridiculous perversion of a simple biological mechanism for procreation. It's infantile and probably some form of arrested development. You'd have to be nuts to be queer and face a life of being ridiculed and scorned. Okay baby-makers have become more tolerant but not particularly enthisiastic about us poofters. So, yes - I'm insane to be queer. Except, of course the shrink biz decided to back off from calling it a mental disease because there was enough evidence to start thinking that homosexuality is not a choice but may be innate. But I still don't squeal if you BM's criticise me because, from a common sense and moral POV, being queer is crazy. I don't fret about being nuts too much because, as far as I'm concerned, most people are crazy when it comes to sex or money. I mean, isn't the straight male's fixation on tits and Lolita-type pubescent chickies sick? Sex has become an emotionally complex trip and even a recreational sport for westerners. In SF the straights are as queer as the gays. There are more straight private S and M sex clubs in SF than the rest of the States put together. Now to me, S&M is really insane. I do not understand the connection between pleasure/sex and pain/degradation. These guys are nuts. But most of them are not insane. Nuts - well to me everyone is a bit nuts - but nuts is harmless. Insane is evil, ugly, misanthropic, deceitful, sociopathic and, when I've called a couple of premies and exes insane (to their faces not behind their back) I meant it. They are ugly, evil misanthropes, pathological liars, insincere game-players, morally perverted, fear-mongering, paranoid and negative, spreading confusion through their duplicitousness and lack of ethics AND they're irrational, evasive and irresponsible. I could go one but I must go to bed as it is late and I have a busy day tomorrow. You raised so many important points and I would like to address them one by one and may later but hopefully some other brave souls will pick up the topic and run with it. As I said - I would have been insane to not answer your post. Oh, one quickie - I know that I was mentally ill by the time I met Rev Rawat - from a combination of paranoia induced by being harassed and put in jail in apartheid South Africa, being queer in a Nazi police state, taking to many drugs for too long, having one too many mind-bending trips on acid, being depressed for too many years, being lonely and isolated and frightened most of the 8 years I lived in the UK. So yes, I have seen the bottomless pit of hell - it is mental sickness and I was mentally sick for many years. But I eventually decided that I was too poor to suffer from madness or allergies and gave them up as being impractical.

Subject: PS Anything Goes is gone From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:53:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AG, the ersthwhile (dammit, Livia) haven for exes who are bored with the forum and prefer talking baby talk to each other in fake German accents and making poofter jokes, is gone. Actually the AG fruits, nuts and vegetables have gone underground. This morning Sir Dave announced a new password-protected asylum (in both senses) called ''The Secret Garden.'' Praise Allah!

Subject: seems like some exs DO From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:48:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: miss being in a cult.

Subject: Good Luck Pat From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 14:58:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've certainly raised the tone here though I wasn't so sure about Thelma,but I liked Thelma because she said fuck you rawat in more depth than I could. Thanks too for your anti anonymity campaign,without which I would still be stuck with a joke persona. You mention the diehard cult mentality. They're clever, ruthless and rotten to the core. That's 100% right. The perfect devotees,the mirror image of their master,the ones prepared to do anything to maintain...... what?......beats me. Still,there're only 3 or 4 of them agin 50 or so of us,& that's only in cyberspace,in the wider world as you say,very few give a flying fuck about the Lord of the Universe. All the best to you,may the rain fall softly on your fields & all that.....love PatD.

Subject: Thanks for your kind words, Pat [nt] From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:37:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: j

Subject: Re: This forum From: Voyeur To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:42:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for all the work you have done here, and more power to your elbow.

Subject: Re: This forum From: PatC To: Voyeur Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 11:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was hoping you were making an offer to take over. :P Go on, pretty please. Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: Re: This forum From: Voyeur To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 13:10:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know me better than that......my days of endless thankless toiling service while watching how the other half lived are well and truly over....

Subject: Rumour has it ...... From: PatD To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:51:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....that Guru(just call me Prem)Maha etc,will be putting on one of his one man vaudeville shows in London in late June/July. Venue unknown. What a trouper!

Subject: 22nd July From: I hear it's Brighton... To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..followed a day later with an introductory programme at The Barbican. premies have been asked to raise £35 per seat for the latter to cover costs.

Subject: Re: Rumour has it ...... From: Bolly Shri To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:13:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will you give more info nearer the time? I have to get my saris down to the river for laundering, and maybe rob a bank to find the 'donation' Jai Sat etc. LOL Bolly

Subject: Anyone fancy a london demo?..... From: hamzen To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 18:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also thinking of getting some cards printed up, what should be on them, just http://www.ex-premie.org or details as well? Any dates and locations?

Subject: Re: Rumour has it ...... From: Thorin To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:17:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rumour also has it that some 'dedicated' premies have also sent personal invitations to PR to put on some 'sideshows' in one or two other locations. I understand that PR has, in his infinite kindness, accepted appearing in these 'small' and 'select' showings. Costs of entry presently unknown but, I am sure, will be mouthwatering. Gee ain't this all dandy - think I may get back on the 'participation' listing. See you at the 'feet' Warmly,Thorin

Subject: ....time for a European vacation (nt) From: Must be.. To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 10:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Anyone was wondering From: Just Incase To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elan Vital, Inc. PO Box 6130 Malibu, CA 90264 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church Income Money that the organization has received from contributions, grants, the performance of services, etc. GuideStar takes this figure from line 12 of IRS Form 990 or from the GuideStar Financial Statement completed by the organization. These are net figures from which rental expenses, costs, sales expenses, direct expenses, and costs of good sold (lines 6b, 8b, 9b, and 10b on Form 990) have been deducted. If GuideStar currently has neither Form 990 information nor a GuideStar Financial Statement for the organization, the figure is taken from the IRS Business Master File. Income listed on the Business Master File is a gross figure that includes the expenses listed above

Subject: LG is anti-shri hans From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 20:54:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They deleted JHB's post quoting hans. Seems like they don't approve of prem's huru.

Subject: Here's how EPO can help with all of this stuff... From: la-ex To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:38:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is SO revealing, fascinating, interesting etc., that premies and maharaj himself are uncomfortable with some of the 'satsang' from the master's master... EPO could host some of shri hans best quotes concerning ethics, the teacher/student relationship (some of which is quite bizarre), the supposed powers of the master etc.... Also, all of the dfferent versions of the 'power succession', could be explained and discussed, and perhaps an e-mail could be sent to maharaji's web site asking for his clarification......) I remember at least 3 dfferent versions...1)the voice at the funeral telling him it was his duty to spread knowledge....2)the letter from shri hans with 'salutations to the 4 boys, but 'complete prostrations' to the youngest (Pay Pal)'....3)the 'smoke filled room' version, in which 4 different groups vied for power, including the camps of: a)bal bhagwan ji ji b)mata ji c)maharaji d)proessor tanden and dlm..... These versions could be posted, and e-mails could be sent to bal bhagwan ji (sat pal) and maharaji (Pay Pal) for clarification. Also, the letter could request their perspectve on shri hans 'ethical satsangs'.....

Subject: Re: Here's howEPO can help with all of this stuff From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't YOU write it ? Tons of genuine documents are already on EPO. You just need to write an essay on this .... or a thesis !!

Subject: Re: LG is anti-shri hans From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:31:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes well it's obvious why, isn't it. I found a quote of Shri Hans where he was talking about the crucial importance of ethical integrity in a Master. I posted it over there and everybody ignored it. Unsurprisingly. Shri Hans is inconvenient and I expect they wish he'd go away. The fact is that Maharaji deeply loved him and worshipped him - still does, I don't know. He certainly used to say that he prayed to him and I used to think that the devotion he had for Shri Hans was the devotion he wanted us to have for him. But Shri Hans does keep saying these awkward things - so what do they do? See him as someone who was steeped in traditional Hinduism! But then Maharaji worshipped him! Oh dear, best thing to do is just ignore it and hope it'll all go away. Love, Livia

Subject: Isn't it amazing that From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:44:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: premies follow someone who has been given a mission thru 'hearing voices'. 'The voice told me 3 times 'you are the one to continue'....I would have been happy to be a humble premie...blah..blah...blah' Or did I remember wrongly?

Subject: Re: Isn't it amazing that From: AV To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:44:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somewhere I saw posted three seperate quotes from M about how he was passed the 'mantle of power' from SH...the bit about hearing voices was one,in another quote, M said SH left him a letter. I forget the third, but they are all different. I read here an account that M was plopped on the throne after SH died by a mahatma before Mataji could get BBJ up there as the eldest son and natural successor according to tradition....I wonder if this is true..it's all getting a bit apochryphal. But then there's that 'dear children of god, why are you weeping?'..satsang from M, and of course that SloMo shot in Satguru has come when M and SH exchange deep knowing looks..... It seems very strange that LG should delete such postings, because it exposes the heart of the revisionist ethic...considering all of this info is pretty much in the public domain, all the acts of cover ups say more than than the texts they are trying to obscure!

Subject: Yes, whatever happened to channelising? From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:53:29 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Shri Hans again (who else? - he seems to be flavour of the day..) The Holy Name should be received from one who himself received it from his Perfect Master, and who is presently Perfect Master in a correct spiritual succession. From ancient times the Perfect Master has channelised His spiritual power to His disciples. Since the Name comes from the same spiritual tradition, it has become very powerful. He who teaches this Name is called the Guru, and he who receives it is called the disciple.

Subject: then new premies now have a new Guru - From: cq To: Nigel Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bow down To Shiba! images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005N5XP.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Subject: Yeah, isn't that something? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 19:31:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Current premies must ignore the early teachings of both Maharaji and his father, Shri Hans. Those teachings set out the basic program which Maharaji still relies on to maintain dominance and control of his followers but the teachings themselves are verbotten. I mean, I think it's just amazing that neither LG nor ELK would be willing to allow some of this stuff to even sit there side-by-side with other unrelated bits of 'wit and wisdom'. It's incredible. I mean, this is how weird it gets. Maharaji picked up a Kabir fetish from his father. Great. Well, Hans Yog Prakash, Shri Hans entire philosophy in one, neat scripture, has a whole Kabir section. But I'll bet anything that the last thing 'Visions' is going to be selling any time soon is Hans Yog Prakash. Why? Because it states the program far too clearly for Maharaji's uses these days. What program? The same one Maharaji himself carried forth and embellished in his downright scary 'Peace Bomb' satsang. You know, the one where he threatened secular artists with their 'just rewards' once his Peace Bomb finally exploded and he, Maharaji, ruled the world. Now here's the weirdest part. All scriptures seem to have a catch in them that, in meme terms, serves as a survival and reproduction device. The bible, for instance, warns its readers that it is, indeed, the word of God, tries to flatter and cajole them into accepting what it says on face value under some bullshit principle that faith is better than knowledge and then threatens them with damnation should they doubt or turn away. Could you imagine if any other kind of book did that? What if Stephen Hawkings (must be a biologist :)) wrote a new book. Imagine the introduction: This book spells out the latest developments in string theory. It is actually an utterance of God's own wisdom which it confirms beyond any doubt on pages 35 to 38 where it says so in the clearest possible terms. If you have found this book, consider yourself blessed. Indeed, you might as well trust that the book found you because trust, in this context, is all good. Indeed, if you have any doubt at all about anything in this book, the one thing you can trust more than anything else is that that is none other than Satan playing with your mind. Now, did I say 'latest developments'? Did I say 'theory'? Trust me, I am not using those words in their common, wordly sense. In fact, only I know exactly what I mean by them but that's okay so long as you have enough trust (for a definition of 'trust' see page 52). Anyway, now that we've found each other, you know, of course, that there's no turning back. That, dear reader, would be the devil's work. So, enjoy the ride, give me everything and don't eat the brown acid -- until I tell you to, of course. Now what's so weird is that Maharaji and Shri Hans did the same thing. They, too, tried to trap their devotees with strong commands about how to receive their utterances and how not to. Shri Hans went out of his way to explain what a real devotee was as opposed to a fake one (see the quote below re 'Do-your-own-thing' type premies). And Maharaji, in his Peace Bomb emphatically anticipated and dismissed any current or future complaint that that Talibanesque rany should ever be discounted because of his youth. But what's so funny is that the premies refuse to even look at their own cult leader's directions in this regard! Talk about being ginger, skittish, blind-folded, trussed and hog-tied. The cult that was too afraid to look in the mirror. Amazing.

Subject: The bible of de-progammers says this.... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to my friend who was a premie for 10 years, and an 'exit counselor' for another 10 after that, the sure fire way to keep devotees in a cult is to always mention 2 things, rght next to each other... 1)The promise of great rewards (bliss, nirvana, eternal heavenly after life, etc....)..if you follow the path.... Followed by: 2)The promise of great punishment if 'plan A' is not followed to the letter...(the 'mind' eating you up, sharks getting you if you fall off the ship, eternal hell and damnation, endless lifetimes in reincarnated insects bodies etc....) It's always the juxtaplsition of the 2 great extremes, with the 'master' as the only way out, the only way to get to the obvious good, and avoid the obvious bad... When you think about it, these techniques are used in varying degrees in most religions, terrorist groups, and any group that wants to keep it's followers in line etc.... When you look at the 'peace bomb', it is scary......not so much in that I belive that m thinks that stuff now, but that it does show: 1)how he grew up, and what he thought it was all about.... 2)if he didn't believe it, he sure was ready, willing and able to brow-beat a bunch of poor premies into following him, by believing this crap... 3that all of us who became premies somehow managed to 'overlook' these disturbing satsangs, or 'sweep them under the ashram rug', or something... Can you imagine anyone today allowing anyone they know to get into this, after reading ANY of this, even if it was in the past? Wouldn't they at least want a little bit of information?....(something which Pay Pal is not willing to give ...)

Subject: Channelising JFK From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 17:00:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have put Moley in a trance state and used her hands to manipulate your earth devices - i.e. keyboard. I am looking for that peachy letter the previous incarnation of god (and I should know) wrote to me whilst I was in corporeal form. It is somewhere on ex-premie org. Any of you embodied beings know where to find it?? (P.S. George W Bush - get a life.)

Subject: Shri...and...his..shadow! From: Cynthia To: Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 20:10:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I happened to have my copy of Hans Yog Prakash and...btw, the subject title of this post goes to the tune: 'Me and My Shadow' Shri Hans Ji Maharaj When one is in Guru Maharaj Ji's presence, one's hands should be folded and one's speech should be humble and soft. One should never stretch one's legs before Him, but should keep them folded under the body. One should not cross the room in front of Him, and should never even step in His shadow. Shri and his shadow walking off to Malibu..... (once again) (over and over) ;)

Subject: Where in Hans Yog Prakash From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:36:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: does it tell you how to pick him up and cart him off to bed when he's pissed as fart on cognac, Cynthia? A bit difficult if your hands have to be folded and you're forbidden to step in his shadow......those x-rated Pams incl Mishler/Dettmers must have transgressed some Divine Law somewhere along the line. :)

Subject: Re: Where in Hans Yog Prakash From: Cynthia To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:53:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just trying to picture someone with their legs folded under them trying to walk across the room and not stepping in His Shadow. Premies, legs folded under, bums to floor dragging Him inch by inch...the sweet stench of surrender...''Pranam Mraji.'' ''Wearsh Mata Ji'' He cries. Four, maybe five premies are tugging, pulling, trying not to smell his stinking drunken potty mouth breath. Lights out. Then the premies, seeing no Shadow, get up and walk away. How many PAMs does it take to put him to bed?;)

Subject: BTW From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:06:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hilarious post! 'Wearsh Mata Ji' hahahaha.

Subject: We God forsaken Manmutts,,I don't know:) [nt] From: Dermot To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:59:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Irreverent Humour Heals... From: Cynthia To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:03:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've always had a problem with authority figures;) I must try to sleep...3:00 am here.

Subject: Shri Hans on being funnier than words From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:19:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour.

Subject: You're making these up From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:14:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He never said this, did he??? John he doesn't know any rich men but is willing to accept his blows.

Subject: Careful there, John From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I'm not making them up. Straight out of the pages of Hans Yog Prakash. But I'd be careful about accpeting any of those rich mens' blows, John, what with venereal disease being so rampant and everything. :)

Subject: Shri Hans on 'Do-your-own-thing' premies From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:12:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The saints divide devotees into two types. The first type is he who approaches a Perfect Master because he understands that he has need of his spiritual guidance. He is called one who believes in his Guru, because he gives his life in service to his Guru. The second type is known as one who follows his mind. He approaches the Guru because he sees that other people are coming to him. Although he has a Guru he continues to follow the dictates of his own mind, and continues to do only those things which he himself wants to do. This is why he is called a disciple of mind, while the other type of devotee is known as a disciple of his Guru Maharaj Ji. Funny, isn't it, how much at odds he is with some of these jokers?

Subject: Shri Hans on attending M's Trainings From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:03:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( O Kabir, when a disciple doesn’t mind being insulted left and right, the people of the world call him a true devotee of his Guru. :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(

Subject: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:56:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ********************************************************** :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( A disciple who concentrates on making many friends, instead of forging a strong relationship with his Satguru gets stuck in mid way, and never reaches the abode of Truth. ********************************************************** :):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):(:):( Funny, the last Shri Hans quote one I submitted to ELK's 'Wit and Wisdom' page: Lustful women who pay no heed to the words of Satguru, but make a show of modesty on the outside, says Kabir, become bitches who moan wherever they go. didn't make it up on the page for some reason. What's really weird is that I posted that quote on LG too, just like all those Einstein and Kermit the Frog quotes that keep popping up there but it just plum disappeared! Would someone be so kind as to post this new one on LG perhaps? Thanks, Jim who's on house arrest

Subject: Re: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wasn't there a quote from SH in 'Divine Times' about; 'after realising Knowledge, it is the joy of the disciple to forge beautiful loving friendships' or maybe that was Ramakrishna... jeez, all these guys telling me what I should do about friends...waaaaahhh!

Subject: Re: Quote of the Day -- Shri Hans Ji Maharaj From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:46:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted. I wonder how long it will last? John.

Subject: Thanks -- let me know, huh? [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:48:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pity Shri Hans...... From: PatD To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......never got stuck in Midway. Surely he could've turned the torpedoes into flying fish. After all, his son promised to turn the bombs into petals.....maybe he's just waiting for the biggie to show us what he's made of. Nuclear war in the subcontinent. I'll bet he's got the Challenger fired up on the runway just ready to get over there & zap Agni out of the sky. Incidentally,didn't someone mention once(maybe I saw it in the archives),that Prem is in possession of some late 19thC book of old gugru's ramblings given him by ShriH,which he has been known to dip into when short of inspiration. That might be an interesting read....all those frog stories.

Subject: repeated hisyory From: Jetjro To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 21:23:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone notice that the story about Hazur(the 'first' GMJ)finding his guru by a big hand fishing himout of a river is the same story told of how hans hound his guru.

Subject: No way, Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:03:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not banned I'm ostracized. Maybe someone else can post it for you but not me;)

Subject: Abi's request - an update From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:02 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: You will recall that Abi requested here that details of her story be removed from EPO for personal reasons. After a short email exchange I agreed to her request, and myself and Jean-Michel are currently complying. Jean-Michel is identifying, and removing or editing, posts in the 'Best of Forum' section. As references to her story abound, we have asked her advice on how far we need to go. I have temporarily removed the Jagdeo pages while I rewrite them. In the meantime, I have replaced the main Jagdeo page with this. The Forum Archives present a more difficult challenge, and I have told Abi that I cannot promise when they will be edited. If you have any questions on this, please email me, as I do not think it appopriate to engage in a long discussion here. John.

Subject: Revisionism From: Satganga To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 23:17:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, delete and change the story. Abi never said what she did. Abi has her father back from M's world, he's no longer a premie. Abi is done with her use of EPO and this forum. By all means take some of the most damning information about M off EPO and from the forum archives. Just remember, the net remembers. Hard drives remember. You can take the person out of a cult but you can't take the cult out of a person.

Subject: Revisionism From: Satganga To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 23:16:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, delete and change the story. Abi never said what she did. Abi has her father back from M's world, he's no longer a premie. Abi is done with her use of EPO and this forum. By all means take some of the most damning information about M off EPO and from the forum archives. Just remember, the net remembers. Hard drives remember. You can take the person out of a cult but you can't take the cult out of a person.

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Susan To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it will be tricky to rewrite the page. If one just reads my posts it looks like Jagdeo's crimes were only fondling, not rape. I almost wonder if it would be better the way it stands now. I respect Abi's request. I know when I posted what I did it was very clear with Brian it was NOT retractable. However, I think we care more about Abi than that. I do not need to retract mine but without the context of Abi's it looks like Jagdeo was much less of a preator than he was. We need some wisdom on this, but the vitims come first. I know of another victim similar to Abi who has never been willing to post. I think it is her right, and any victims, not to have to tell the story in public.

Subject: The only thing I'd drop is the name From: Jim To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:53:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ONLY thing I'd drop, either on EPO or in any future forum discussions on the subject, is the name. And for that, I'd probably just do the classic thing of using her initials instead of her name. That's how they do it in the courts here when they're trying to protect the identity of a youth whether they be an offender or victim. The story gets told, of course it gets told -- are you kidding? -- but, to respect the privacy of the young complainant (never adult), only the initials are published. So if that's what she wants, fine, all we need to do is refer to her as A., let's say. I am not of the view that a person's story is somehow 'theirs' in the sense that they can determine who can and can't refer to it, especially if it has some greater significance for those who want or need to talk about it. The whole story of A. and how Maharaji lied directly to her father -- looked him straight in the eye and cried crocodile tears, claiming that he had no idea when there's overwhelming evidence that he actually knew about Jagdeo's pedophilia for years -- is extremely important. I couldn't imagine keeping that a secret.

Subject: Re: The only thing I'd drop is the name From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:31:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: agree. Her idiot father probably wants it removed. She wont remove it from her mind this way, and her kid can handle the truth when he grows up.

Subject: Gerry, is above post also a fake bill post? From: PatC To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:23:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Bjorn using bill's name to post? Please don't delete this till we have time to trace the IP.

Subject: EV Harassment statement missing in action? From: BT To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:43:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, when I tried your EV link I found this statement: 'POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously.' However, two times tonight I went directly to the EV site, i.e., not through your link, and could find the above statement nowhere on the site...not under 'About Elan Vital' or any other of their tabs. I looked because I thought this was a breakthrough...FINALLY -- something, albeit too little, too late. But lo, going to the site directly, the statement is not there, unless I'm doing something wrong to find it. If it's there, it's deeply embedded as far as I can tell. Any explanation? Thanks. BT

Subject: Re: EV Harassment statement missing in action? From: JHB To: BT Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 23:07:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's still there, go to 'About Elan Vital' and click on 'Policies'. It's not on the menu on the left but just under the big 'About'. Now you see what I mean about it not being prominent. John.

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Nige and Moley To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 17:53:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think everyone will respect Abi's wishes - but only those who are aware of them. Unless they had been reading regularly over the last few weeks, many forum regulars are likely to, innocently, make future references to hers and Susan's stories. Much of the information has entered the realm of 'common knowledge'. I am not quite sure what I am saying here but if, for instance, new Jagdeo victims suddenly show up, it could be very tricky for anyone to subsequently piece together or make refernce to what is actually 'known' and not known. Obviously utmost sensitivity is required - and I can see you are applying that on EPO - but I think it would be very sad for all Jagdeo's victims if a culture of silence were to prevail because of that sensitivity, and - who knows? - the whole thing gets brushed under the Indian rug and Jagdeo enjoys a happy retirement in his apparently untraceble present location. Hmm.. Not advising anything here. Just observing and contemplating the unfairness of it all. BTW, to Abi: We have nothing but the deepest admiration for the way you have conducted yourself throughout all this - and now for your dad, too. Our very best wishes.. Nige and Moley

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Jennifer To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:11:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige, I do not want to see this get swept under the Indian rug either. At the risk of sounding insensitive to Abi (which I am NOT, believe me) unless there is a LEGAL reason to remove the entire story--for instance, if Abi was paid off by Elan Vital not to tell it, for instance--then I am with Jim. It would be great to be able to change the names and leave the story. Abi does not have to go there and read it, but it could help other victims to be able to read a story similar to what happened to them, and we know there were other victims. Sexual predators don't just do this kind of thing once. If there is a LEGAL reason and the site could be sued for leaving it on there, then of course, it would have to go. Hey, John, I'm just putting in my two cents worth. It's your call, of course. Abi was so brave in telling it in the first place. It just seems such a shame to take it all back. Yeah, Nige, in the world of child abuse, it's all unfair. Jennifer

Subject: Re: Abi's request - an update From: Cynthia To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:05:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's time to be patient about this issue because of Abi's personal request. I can't take back a promise I made to Abi based on her wishes to not discuss her abuse by Jagdeo. That said, the matter of Jagdeo is not over because of one victim's request either. There are other victims who may come forward in the future. I think time will allow me to sort through this dilemma. I dislike the ''culture of silence'' as Nigel and Moley mentioned above. This culture of silence is an awful reminder of the current Catholic Church sex abuse scandal which never would be a scandal if adult survivors of priest abuse didn't tell and take action. Likewise, EPO and ex-premies assisted and facilitated in speaking truth to power. This is a frustrating condundrum. Children in schools and in homes are taught ''to tell'' when someone hurts them. One reason they are taught this is because silence is a critical dynamic of a pedophile's MO. For the child victim it is a shame-based techique built into the crime itself. I want to be careful to walk the fine line between a particular abuse victim's wishes while acknowledging all others who do have the option today and in the future to tell what happened to them as children while in the cult. To have a gang mentality about this frustrating catch-22 will only serve to discourage others who were victims, IMO. So I have to honor Abi's desire for privacy. It's her life, after all. To examine Abi's motives behind her request would only be speculation at best and I won't do that right now, regardless of the questions I have about it but dare not voice. Nobody said this would be easy. It is a slippery slope for me to walk while I write this post and choose my words carefully. It feels uncomfortable. But for now I must place Abi's wishes first and wait, watch to see what happens next. Cynthia

Subject: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Dermot To: Nige and Moley Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:09:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not so much about Chris/Abi but in response to a Roupell post. I'm itching to speak to speak about Jagdeo, Maharaji and Roupell. I could couch it in terms of a hypothetical situation...........and it's not in anyway disrespectful to Chris/Abi. However, maybe I should bite my tongue and curb my anger,,,,,as the post I have in mind is quite shocking perhaps. I could post it on Daves newly re-instated uncensored/unblocked forum....I've been voluntarily staying off there since Jim/Pat were blocked (though I posted for a while when they were blocked then gave it some thought and blocked myself:) OR I COULD CALM DOWN AND FORGET IT.....LET IT PASS....WHATEVER. Maybe that's the wisest thing to do:) Feedback anyone? ....I have a lot of respect for Abi's request....so?????? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Chris Bray To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:25:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot, I understand your desire to speak out. I don't know what it is you want to say - but I do understand your desire and respect the impulse. That it concerns m daughter's request to be excluded from all further talk of Jagdeo, that much I do know. And that now concerns me. The decision is yours but, personally, I think she has suffered enough. If I had known in the 70s what I know now, Jagdeo would have spent the rest of his life a cripple. As it was, the way it worked out, it was my daughter who, year after year, spent her life as a cripple. Her therapist said it was one of the worst cases of child sexual abuse he had ever encountered. Think about that. This wasn't an itch. This was pain. Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised. But this is only the way it seems. The spear has done it's work. If you are willing to acknowledge it, the wound is there for all to see. The wound in the side of Maharaji's orgnisation is that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward. Yes, you have yourselves to thank for that. But equally you have to thank Abi. She fought for that. I was there. And, and you might not like this, you also have to thank genuinely concerned and sincere premies within Elan Vital. That statement on their website is a major step forward, for Elan Vital and for ex-premies both. Why? Because on the one side it's an admission of fallibility and on the other it's, at long last, an avenue for righting wrongs. And that's major, isn't it? That spear, believe me, well and truly found it's mark. What do we want to do, go and pick it up and throw it again? And aain? And again? If you could meet Abi you would understand, just by the general state of her health, her reasons for requesting what she did. She's had enough. Really, she's had enough. Nothing particularly fine or noble about it. Just human. She wants to get on with her life. She really does. She does not want to feel there'll be this kind of boiling furore ever behind her. For at least one very good reason. It reminds her of Jagdeo. It depends if you have an agenda, I suppose. I don't seem to have one. I haven't reached a point of anger yet. For me, still, it seems to be a kind of purging. Every so often I vomit something appalling up from my premie past and I look at it and say, my God! Did I really swallow that! Yuck! So if you do have an agenda, Dermot, I wish you all the best. Go for your life! But if you can pursue it by honouring Abi's request, all the beter. The truth will anyway out, as my old Mum used to say. Abi's done her bit, hasn't she? Now it's up to anyone else who was ever harmed by Maharaji's organisation to stand up and be counted. Because what's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners. Yeah. Yuck.

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Jennifer To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:59:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, 'that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward.' With all due respect, what do you think a statement like this actually achieves? Will Elan Vital really address issues now, or continue to stick their head into the sand? If they are willing to negotiate with a victim, do you believe a monetary pay off makes things right? Shouldn't Jadego go to jail instead? Just some food for forum thought. Best wishes to you, Jennifer

Subject: Thanks again, Chris From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:10:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised.'' Just to assure you that there is no disappointment or bitterness from me. I was never happy to see Abi's life so openly on display. As important as her story was in showing up Rawat's callousness and selfishness, I still cringed any time it was mentioned. My concern is not that we have lost a ''spearhead'' of ''the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji.'' It may have been the most cruel and ugly example of Rawat's venality but not the only example. However many of us of course are concerned that the cult has once again stooped to blackmail and succeeded in silencing someone to protect Rawat. I will admit that speculation that this has happened is what concerns many of us. Those of us who do wish Rawat to be accountable for the enormous amount of suffering he has caused premies over the years because of his greed and stupidity know that the most important ''spearhead'' really is the accumulated evidence of Rawat's personal immorality and not that of his employees. You again: ''Because what's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners.'' The most favoured practitioner of Rawat's K of course is Rawat himself and he is the most obvious example of it's inability to inhibit his dreary lust and perversion, his own greed and his sexual abuse of his own trusted students. Even worse it shows that the special K that he sells is useless and even morally crippling.

Subject: No problem Chris From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 08:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What happened to Abi and yourself and the rest of your family REALLY happened. I can only speculate on a HYPOTHETICAL scenario as if It happened to my daughter....and thus, to some extent myself.However,I'm more than willing to drop that speculation. Given that, I'll obviously respect Abi's request. Somehow or other, M and his org have to face up to a lot of stuff but whether they sincerely will do is doubtful but ya never know! As for Ab and your family, I'll happily never mention her/you again and certainly have no desire or intention to use you all as some propaganda tool.....no way jose. Thanks for your post and best wishes to you all. Cheers Dermot PS somehow, though ,Jagdeo and M still have to be mentioned and held accountable for a lot of stuff regarding Jagdeo....in general or in particular for any victims still wishing their details to be known.That is only right and proper.

Subject: Silence From: Loaf To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:13:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Silence is not an option. We have to speak without using the name of a person who has requested anonymity. I am curious about this 'cash settlement' as reported on EPO. Who was it to, and do the terms of it require silence too ? I dont want to interfere in anybody's private life, but matters of public interest remain so, even if XXXX's identity is removed. Lets keep talking.

Subject: Thanks Y'all From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:10:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On second thoughts though I'll drop MYpersonal reflections. Suffice to say that I don't think I'd have been as fine and noble as Abi and her family undoubtedly have been had I and my daughter been involved.... I would probably be rotting away in a prison somewhere in India, Australia or somewhere as a result:) Unless I had good people and advisors to restrain my stupid Irish temprement that is:) Cheers Dermot

Subject: There is no group position on this From: JHB To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 05:01:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fact that Abi made the request does not in itself mean that everyone has to comply. Each person should do what they think and feel is right. My own position as EPO webmaster was a difficult one, and I have no fear in saying that the decision to comply was not as clear cut as some might think. I won't go into my reasoning, but the possibility of leaving Abi's story on EPO was seriously considered. Some will judge me for even thinking that, but that's their decision. So, how do I respect Abi, and yet also respect the truth and history? That's up to me to decide, as it is for everyone else. John.

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:32:43 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: How about emailing it to some of us first. :C) Get it off your chest.

Subject: to Dermot From: Livia To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:24:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dermot, Please email me too at liviadowte@hotmail.com I've got a couple of things I'd like to say too but would rather not post them on an open forum. And I'd like to know if it's the same thing you'd like to say but feel you can't, if you follow me. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: I'M ITCHING TO SPEAK From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:39:13 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Dermot: I know what you are talking about. There's another way to talk about what's bothering you, in a more general way, in a separate thread. Email me now if you want to discuss. Marianne

Subject: Honoring Abi's Request is Important... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:51:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for an update John. I certainly do hope that everyone will honor Abi's request. The site looks fine... :)

Subject: Ok, honor the request, but WHY From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 07:48:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We all know what happened. And if it weren't for US, it never would have happened. It is the strongest arrow in our quill and now we are 'asked' to throw it away and not use it. Bullshit, I say! rAWrAT WINS AGAIN. LET'S TALK OPENLY ABOUT THIS !!!

Subject: I am so torn about this.. From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 09:24:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, I really am torn about this new development because I do agree with what Jim states above about the entire history of Jagdeo in the cult. I cannot forget that Abi is a person who has suffered so much and I think if we rip into talking about this, while she has made a request of us not to talk, (Christ this is frustrating) I become a part of mob mentality--I mean for right now. Let the dust settle and see how everything works out. I also believe there are ways to discuss the Jagdeo matter while respecting Abi's wishes. Rawat hasn't won. I don't believe that for one second. For now, I recommend patience....while I sit here feeling gagged.:( Maybe for now venting privately will help...let's not make a person into an agenda. But let's not forget there are others who may tell their stories in the future, either. I'm feeling frustrated and angry, too. Of all things, I abhor silence on the issue of child abuse. Cynthia

Subject: Re: I am so torn about this.. From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 16:54:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My 'heart' tells me to honor Abi's request and my mind tells me others WILL come forward. I would think so, and they too should receive a settlement. This is no different from the catholic church. Rawat should pay up. Maybe we could place something on EPO telling people their rights as civil plaintiffs against the glorious Prem Rawat Foundation. No more silence and we should urge Mr Rawat to do the right thing. Money won't 'make it all better' but it's how we settle up injustices in this country.

Subject: Re: I am so torn about this.. From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 20:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, would you please email me? I lost your address.:)

Subject: Thanks, John From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:54:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The new Jagdeo page looks good. If you want this thread locked just say so but hopefully everyone will understand the need to not discuss this issue and will restrain themselves.

Subject: Hey, I just won one too! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got back from court. A client of mine who was convicted of first degree murder just got a new trial too. Won't talk about it much, can't talk about it much. Only wanted to say that I think this was a completely just decision and I'm happy as hell. Jim Who never likes to brag -- unless, of course, he's got something to brag about :)

Subject: Congratulations, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done. Non-sequitur: Did you see last nights' season finale of Law and Order? Should be compulsory viewing for the European neo-Nazis.

Subject: Thanks and no From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well done. Non-sequitur: Did you see last nights' season finale of Law and Order? Should be compulsory viewing for the European neo-Nazis. --- What about it?

Subject: Law and Order OT From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:01:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I better not ruin it for you as there will be summer reruns. Basically - some former Green Beret nut decides to start killing Muslims in the US. But I won't tell you the story unless you twist my arm.

Subject: congrats matey and also... From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: heard from Lee, looks like he's popping over saturday, so finally I can get all the gossip on yer and hold you to ransom, so I'm feeling good about yers too. Looks already like we'll get on fine, and he's well up for a bit of gossip it seems, :) Must feel really good when you win a big one, that's what I hated most about my social services vocation, no real victories, just constantly keeping stuff at bay the best you could. Anyway since we're off topic, loads of great shit happening here, not least the r.u have got a tent in a summer fdestival locally, small scale, but real community based which I love, and we're putting on a multi-media exhinition including graffiti art and web design amongst others later in the year. Definitely a brazilian good vibes summer developing over here, love it. Web site almost finished so I'll either e-mail yer or post as of. Nice one jim, n'joi

Subject: Great work From: Marianne To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:57:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must be thrilled. If you got a new trial, something really wrong happened during trial. Was it the judge or the prosecutor who misbehaved? Email me with details if you want. Congratulations Jim.

Subject: Darshan Dreams From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:21:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last night I dreamed I was at Ms place. The missus was out and god was in charge of the kids(quite a few small ones). He put them in front of the telly and went off to get a few cans of lager and some smokes. I came into the room and he grabbed me by the hair and put his hand across my throat. I tried to scream and no sound came out. Then I woke up. At the same venue ( my unconcious) I have had tea with Margerat Thatcher and seen she was human. I'm reflecting now on which one was most scary. It could be a tie. Love and keep off the the stimulants at bedtime, Bolly

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wot wuz Mag's fave T?? Lady Grey??

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: Bolly Shri To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: British workers boiled alive, where the spoon stands up unaided. Missed your reply about a rendevouz and this machine is running out of time. LOL

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: AV To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: soz, what's your email?

Subject: Re: Darshan Dreams From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 06:02:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had one not so long ago. M was in town and I went to see him. I politely sat up front, minding my own business, and poof, one of my oldest, dearest longtime premie friends appeared at my side, sent to guard me, watch me, and make sure I wasn't up to evil mischief. I turned to her and said 'I'm here to just listen to what he has to say. I thought the door was always open.' Clearly it isn't. What was so surprising was the attitude from her that she had been convinced I was now a threat of some sort when she's known me for nearly thirty years.

Subject: Colours To The Mast From: Chris Bray To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:36:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In 1974, after listening to the sincere testimony of hundreds of premies, I put up my hand for Knowledge and was revealed the techniques. From that moment on, until late last year, my life defined itself within the parameters of Maharaji's world. In order to make the move into Maharaji's ashram I gave away career and real estate, and the respect of my agent, friends and family; everything, in fact, which attached me to this world, this 'maya'. I did this because I had come to believe that Maharaji was the Lord (something we reassured ourselves about at least twice a day when we sang 'Arti') and that consequently this lifetime could most usefully only be spent in his service. (A note for Revisionists: the past isn't something you can take to a laundromat.) The name Maharaji, as we know, translates as Great King. His world is a kingdom. What I found was that its border were, and still are, defined by very real boundaries. The four walls of Video, Participation, Practice and Darshan are as effective a containment as the walls of any monastery. Within those walls, then, I lived and laboured. I never considered a life for myself outside them. My last breath, I prayed, would be dedicated to him. But then, for the sake of my daughter, I stoped practising Knowledge. I did this becase she was engaged in a particular battle and she was losing. There was no one else to fight for her and there was no beter way I could represent her. I knew I had to come out from behind those Monastery walls and see things as she saw them. Then I could fight for her effectively. I had already tried to fight for her from within those walls, you see, and failed pathetically. I had to 'come out'! So little by little, as I wished it to happen, so it happened. It took a while for me to achieve this but then, yes, there I was outside the Monastery walls. For the first time since 1974. No angels, no messengers from the Court of Love came in my dreams to urge me back. Not even Maharaji himself. I was very much on my own. Interestingly, very interestingly, I experienced a lot of fear, even panic. I asked myself where this accumulation of fear had come from and was shocked by the answer. I felt loneliness, too. I had, in a subtle way, cut myself away from brothers and sisters dear to me. But then, little by little, something began to take hold, to grow. I begn to like it outside the walls. It felt dangerous, chancey, like I was skating on thin ice. At first I was scared. Then I said, so be it. I began to feel alive. With that, too, as I started to look around, I experienced a surge of respect at the plain courage and ordinary goodness of people living outide those Monastery walls. I hadn't expected this. With this came a reflexive and profound lack of esteem for myself. I hadn't expected this either. But when I realised my former self-image was being demolished, again I said: so be it. A kind of fierceness took over. Relief, too, because no longer when I met people did I have a secret and superior agenda which I might or might not share with them, depending how 'open' they were. So that's it, really. I felt that it was time to nail my colours to the mast. From time to time I ask myself - it's a useful excercise - if instead of practising Knowledge for the last 28 years I had put the equivalent time, effort and money into tertiary study or Hatha Yoga or basketweaving or whatever, what level would I have achieved? The answer has to be - a very high level. The next question is: then what did I achieve practising Knowledge? Well, poverty, I have to say, for a start. Always making myself available for Participation ensured that. So, in worldly terms, a kind of dwarfism. But also something indefineable, a feeling of pride maybe. That I'd once had the lunacy to abandon everything, to engage myself with something as outrageous as the Divine Light Mission, to cheerfully throw in my lot with hard cases like Mick Locke and John Sheridan and Frannie Wells and Anth Ginn and countless others and follow a boy who declared he had come to bring peace to the world. Those were the days. Now, viewed from without the Monastery walls, I see it differently. I equate the Rawat family with the Windsors, currently occupying the throne of England. Once upon a time I believed Prem Pal Rawat was the Lord. And once upon a time people in England believed in the Divine Right of Kings. It was a confidence trick, of course, but it fooled most of the people most of the time and it very conveniently justified all kinds of crime and misbehaviour. If you have a Divine Right to do something, you can do anything. And if you're on a Divine Mission, it seems, likewise. Times have changed. No one believes in the Divine Right of Kings anymore. We're not that stupid. Yet, amazingly, the Royal Family continues. They adapted. They changed their image. They found a niche for themselves. They call themselves 'The Firm'. To them it's business- of an unusual kind (people still seem to feel the need for them) -but business just the same. And business, let's not forget, makes money. To me, yes, alas, Knowledge is the same. Once outside those Monastery walls it's alarming how susceptible Knowledge is to the most cynical explanation. The fairy tale, once examined, reveals nothing more or less than a family business (of an unusual nature, it's true - but a busness just the same). And business, let's not forget, makes money. There's a necessary journey it seems we all take, from innocence to experience. Then back again to innocence. That second innocence is hard-won. It doesn't come easy. But I feel it's approach. No names, no pack drill. The Creator's love is cast over all. It surely included Maharaji's Monastery, then and now. We played our part, I swear, us many thousands. If there's a vibration, we lifted it. If there's a love, we raised it. We did that, our raggle-taggle army. No denying it. Was our love misplaced? I have to say my sense of it is that it was not. Our focus was Maharaji but only because he seemed to encapsulate, shining up there on his throne like a hologram, our inchoate desire for a world based on love and truth. It made sense that you start with yourself. Nothing wrong with that. We weren't about to invade Poland. We did well that it was in our hearts. That it was in our hearts, yes, we did well. As this will probably be my one and only posting I'm adding the end of a poem about Ulysses, a Greek hero who decided it was time to move on. It's not easy climbing over those Monastery walls and I thought this might give courage to anyone reading this who is, so to speak, straddling the brickwork. So... 'Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars, until I die. It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: It may be we will touch the Happy isles, And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.' That's by Tennyson. And I'd like, as this forum permits, to thank my daughter for obliging me to leave the Monastery and look around and, as she puts, wake up. Thank you,Abi!

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Chris Bray To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 17:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the loving responses, I have to say it, made me cry. Thank you very very much. Now, instead of feeling that little bit lonely, I feel very much embraced. Thanks!!!!!

Subject: Chris and Carla From: Robyn To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 01:54:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Chris and Carla, I sat here reading your posts with tears streaming down my face. Love will set you free, the love for and of your children. I have also taken some honest looks at myself that were inspired by the needs of my children. It is a beautiful dance back and forth sometimes I lead sometimes they do. I wish you all children and parents, love, patience with each other and yourselves and healing. Love, Robyn

Subject: Welcome Chris. What a beautiful letter. From: Crispy To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:03:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a mindbender it is to discover what we had held so dear turns out to be false in the end. In this sense, even though I have never met you and Abi, I feel we share the same road. I was deeply moved by your story, and hope you, and Abi, can go on to prove Maharaji wrong by rediscovering and leading your own life without him - fulfilled and undeluded.

Subject: Congratulations. Great dignity. (nt) From: Bryn To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 03:40:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome back Earthling. From: AJW To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 02:38:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chris, What a surprise to see your wonderful post here. I'm so glad you've managed to step outside the Captain's cult and see the trip we were involved in from another perspective. I've had an inkling on how tough it's been for you through our ongoing correspondance, and I'm really happy you're out of the clouds, back with the rest of us imperfect beings, splashing around on the planet. Well done, and welcome home fellow earthling. Maybe you should drop your agent a line, 'Hi, sorry about that phone call in 73 - I was ensnared in a cult etc... Now, I've got this great idea for a new book...' Take care, Anth, between coffee shops in Brabant.

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Carla Read To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 00:30:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris..... Even though I live with and love you everyday, the beauty and profundity of your post surprised and moved me deeply. Twenty-nine years ago at the tender age of 17, I entered into a strange, eerie self containment via devotion to Maharaji (eg.I breathed my way through proceedings around my mother's suicide and didn't feel a thing!) and an invisible but insidious wedge was driven between me and my family. Today I still mourn that loss and know ahead of me is a painfull dislodgement and a long, slow healing. What awaits us, and it has begun, is a conscious embrace of familial love. Human love -in all its imperfection and perfection. For Abi and Dylan, Ivan, Josh,Mischa, Luke, Jess and Grace - all our shared children - the healing begins. 'Tho' much is taken, much abides...' Your Partner in Lunacy, Carla

Subject: Hi Carla From: AJW To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 02:42:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carla, Welcome to the Blunderdome. I can almost feel the walls tumbling down from here. Hope you and everyone is well, happy, and enjoying life. You're dead right when you say what awaits is familial love. This is far, far superior to 'Rawat's love', which travels one way only, and gets there much faster if attached to a bank note. A new life begins. Anth, cash prefered.

Subject: Thanks, Carla From: PatC To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:37:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You guys sound like a wonderful family. Best wishes, Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

Subject: I love you Carla! From: Abi To: Carla Read Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 01:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm very proud to have you as my step-mother. The things you said about family made me cry. lots of love from me and Dylan xx

Subject: Thank you Chris,plus a ? for you... From: la-ex To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 19:46:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much Chris. Your courage and honesty are obvious and inspiring. Posts like yours help many people, far and wide, now and in the future as well. All of the pieces help put the puzzle together. I have one question for you. Would you be comfortable in sharing anythng about your meeting with maharaji in amaroo? Personal encounters are always interesting and helpful in the process of understanding the process we were in for so long. Of course, if you are not comfortable with this, I understand, but if you are, it can be helpful to others. Congratulations, and welcome home!

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Jenny To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:53:53 (PDT) Email Address: None Message: Dear Chris, I write with tears in my eyes. Such was the power, humanity and spirit of your very moving post. Through your words I looked back at those monastery walls that I too have scaled, after a stint at straddling the brickworks. Touched beyond measure for the journey you undertook, and so eloquently described. Testament that the love, aspirations and hopes believed to be housed and defined only behind those walls are not lost, but in reality have a much broader context and arena than the court of the king we believed was the only way. Tennyson's inspiring, sweet words at the end were truly uplifting. Wishing you and your family the best of everything. love, Jenny

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Gallowa' Hills To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:47:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: god bless you Chris

Subject: Thank you so much, Chris From: Richard To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Chris, You have given a voice to the incredible empty place inside that once could move mountains. You do us all a great honor by speaking so eloquently of the part we played and the love we still share. Our passion and humanity can never be stolen - thank you for reminding me of that. The love you express for your daughter is touching. I am spending a week with my 95 year old father who is recovering from a broken hip. The bond between a parent and child is truly great and I am so happy that I can be here for him as he was for me. To love and be loved is wonderful indeed. I am sobbing as I read your beautiful words. I hear the pain of your difficult decision, I am outraged at Abi's betrayal, I grieve our collective betrayal and I mourn my dear dad's loss of mobility. I feel so much compassion right now and it is wonderful. Thank you and all the best to you and Abi. I respect Abi beyond measure and now I can say the same goes for you. Richard Rogers

Subject: Comments and a question From: Pat W To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:21:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Firstly to Chris if you're there. It's always inspiring to hear from somebody who has made a stand for their conscience, especially under your circumstances. So thank you for taking the time to nail your colours to the mast...it had to be done didn't it? To Abi: Your father's true colours shone through in the end and I'm very happy for you both. A general question (since Chris has indicated that might not be posting here again) - please forgive my ignorance but - is Chris Bray the same gentleman who I heard Maharaji met with personally at Amaroo a while ago? There is a premie rumour around here that Maharaji sort of apologised to him for Jagdeo's behaviour and set the matter straight (in his own mind one can only presume). Certainly some premies are impressed that this meeting demonstrates that Maharaji has shown 'sufficient' concern about the Jagdeo incident and so the matter is sort of 'closed'. If this is true though, then clearly Chris was pretty unimpressed with Maharaji's sincerity on that occasion. I'd quite like to tell those premies who are dismissing the Jagdeo scandal as 'dealt with appropriately' by the Master that despite Maharaji's condolences to the victims father, he and his daughter have not been impressed enough to continue following him. So is Chris the gentleman who met with M or was it some other victim's father... please someone?

Subject: Re: Comments and a question From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Abi has requested that we don't discuss this issue anymore. Please don't start a new discussion about it. I hope I don't sound rude but it's Abi's decision. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: The horns of a dilemma From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:05:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with both you & PatW.I won't say any more.

Subject: Cynth, check email [nt] From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:59:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: CA (aka Coming Around) To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:44:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As one who is just in the process of rubbing my eyes and waking up from a 30 year trance, I thank you for your inspiring post.. I hope you continue to post... besides getting it out for your own benifit, it truely helps people like me that are just coming to grips with the fact that life does go on without M & K, and I'm sure that in time,the initial emotions I'm experiencing (bitterness,emptiness, regret, etc.) will be replaced with the joy of living life without the chains of devotion to someone who sucessfully played (as you put so well), a 'confidence trick' on me. Best of life to you and your daughter.

Subject: That's the most moving post I've ever read here From: hamzen To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:24:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I am so pleased for you both that you were able to make the transition. But I'm especially pleased for Abi, you so deserve this abi. Chris you're courage and honesty is very inspiring, and your analysis of the dynamics of the transition spot on. Big up to you. Very very heartening, and proves yet again the value of this forum to me.

Subject: Courage beyond measure From: Marianne To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:47:27 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Chris: The courage and strength you and Abi have displayed is incomparable. Congratulations on reclaiming the closeness of your relationship with each other. My admiration for the two of you is boundless. Much love, Marianne

Subject: Hey, I thought you were blocked! From: Jim To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:59:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My admiration for the two of you is boundless. Dangerous cult tendencies showing there, Marianne. The Committee requests that you tune into your rear, left molar for further instructions. :)

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Cynthia To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:39:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Chris, Thanks for talking about your new life without Maharaji. Thank you also for making the choice to defend and uplift your wonderful daughter Abi. Considering the circumstances, what you have done is unique and rare. You had extraordinary obstacles to overcome to reach this place of understanding and I thank you so much. Abi has her father back...nothing is more wonderful than that. Best to you and love to Abi, Cynthia

Subject: A Father.... From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:10:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glad to hear you've extricated yourself( with Abi's help) from Rawats personality cult Chris. Very best wishes to you, your daughter and your grand-son. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Gentle powerful words From: Carl To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, your words carry such a depth of feeling. All who wander for years within Rawat's house of mirrors -- the mad 'monastery' -- and live to escape it, (and escape it to live) will have their own epic journey to relate. You have touched a deep chord, and I hope you will continue to post, to share your insights as you tell your story. Yes, we took a long detour, giving away our best intentions, our earnest and eager innocence toward a greedy horder upon whom we projected our yearnings. I agree that our sincerity itself was beautiful but, in my opinion, it was indeed quite misplaced. We never needed the middleman, and fell for the 'confidence trick', and kept ourselves in thrall out of a subtle cosmic dread. And I say 'epic' without irony. Each person who cherishes something of integrity and decency and intelligence and compassion can't help but to be on a journey toward the deepening of these qualities. It sums to a love of life, and of whatever/whoever brought us here. Who are royalty? Not the Windsors, nor poseurs such as Rawat. A long time ago I found this quote by John Ruskin that I cut out and put in my wallet, to reflect upon from time to time: 'He only is advancing in life, whose heart is getting softer, whose blood warmer, whose brain quicker, whose spirit is entering into living peace. And the men who have this life in them are the true lords or kings of the earth -- they, and they only.' I certainly hope you will continue to bring your valuable perspective to this discussion. It will free many. Best wishes, Carl

Subject: Thank you Dad From: Abi To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:56:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dad, I think you are wonderful, strong, brave and wise. Lots of love from me and Dylan XXXX

Subject: Thanks so much! From: Will To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:07:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks so much to Abi's Dad!!!! Be well, Abi!!!

Subject: love to you both [nt] From: Loaf To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:31:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi Abi From: Kelly To: Abi Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:00:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How nice to see you here as well, I have been thinking about you so much but have not wanted to intrude. This is such good news, I'm so pleased for you. Lots of love Karen

Subject: How wonderful to see you here To The Mast From: Kelly To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:44:26 (PDT) Email Address: karen@ringrose.org.uk Message: and even more wonderful that you have woken from the cult trance and stepped outside the momastery walls. Great analogy. Thank you for that beautiful and very moving post, I am just so glad for you and Abi that you are out. Please give Abi my love, and very best wishes to you for you future as a free man. Karen

Subject: the scales have fallen from your eyes From: welcome out, Chris To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 02:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it's a big world, out here, is it not? freedom is bracing. breathtaking vistas, uncharted territory, of the self, of the world. we made it, so we belong in it. to see you here, today, like this, is a tremendous blast of courage and morale lifting for me, in a way you could never have known you would be. that your daughter would bring forth this strength, this risk, from you, has massive impact on me. as one parent to another, I ask you not to go from us. please--say more. I am listening. i am drinking in your words, your realizations, your courage. i need to hear them right now. I am going thru a terrifying passage myself, with my son. he is leaving me. it is changing my entire world. listening to you, taking such vast steps away from your set life of 26 years, for the sake of your daughter, pours into me the will to also accept facing such vast changes for the sake of my son. stay on and say more, Chris. this is powerful and needfull stuff. I must pay attention and grip onto this. please do not go. thank you for coming. your timing , speaking these words on this day, was meant to be. Janet schwartz mother of stepan hurlburt

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Bolly Shri To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 02:58:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you, what you wrote resonates with a current difficulty I am having with my offspring. Exiting the cult has enabled me to start the process of rebuilding damage that took years to create. Thirty years building your life on someone elses dream and carrying your children into it is a hard thing to reconcile with ones concience. What you said about the Windsors is very true. I think they sustain it with an acute awareness that were they to slip from entertaining the masses with their pecadilloes and foibles, we might well notice they stole all the good land for themselves and their cronies. I hope things continue to improve for you, as they have for me through throwing off the yoke of subservience. Love and good wishes, Bolly

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: Gail To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 06:15:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much for your post. It is very inspirational.

Subject: To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:11:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Chris, from the bottom of my heart. I can't tell you how moved I was to read your post. You brought tears to my eyes many times not least because of your wonderful old-fashioned chivalrousness but because of your way with words and...well, I'm speechless. What a wonderful man you must be. If I believed that there was any way to send you love I would. ''Was our love misplaced?'' you asked and answered; ''I have to say my sense of it is that it was not. Our focus was Maharaji but only because he seemed to encapsulate, shining up there on his throne like a hologram, our inchoate desire for a world based on love and truth.'' You're well out of it, Chris. Welcome back to the human race where such ideals are valued by the people who matter and good riddance to a really creepy ''Monastery'' where all that seems to matter anymore is the superstitious nonsense surrounding the ''Master.'' Thank goodness so beautiful a person as you escaped. Thank you for telling us.

Subject: Bright, beautiful colours! From: Francesca To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 23:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you so much for your well-stated and heartfelt post. Much love to you and Abi. Francesca

Subject: Re: Colours To The Mast From: JHB To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:53:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I have tears in my eyes reading this. Well done. John.

Subject: Absolutely beautiful post! From: Jim To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:51:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, Now I know where Abi gets her smarts. Truly wonderful post and thanks oh so much for taking the time to express yourself here. I hope that you stick around because you just sound like a neat guy to get to know a bit. I really like Abi and have gotten to know her a bit, as have many of us, not just on the forum but also through email and the odd phone call. Chris, if you would ever like to email me I'd be grateful. I feel like I actually know you somewhat through Abi and wouldn't mind talking with you if you're willing. Thanks again, Jim Email's jimheller@shaw.ca

Subject: Bravo Chris, Love to you and Abi XXX(nt) From: Bai Ji To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Bravo Chris, Love to you and Abi XXX(nt) From: AV To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:33:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank u soooooooooo much, a post I would be proud to read to anyone...how strong love is.

Subject: Respect From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:56:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have my heartfelt respect. To come to the aid of your daughter, to not let an entire kingdom stand between you and her, is incredibly brave. She is a most wonderful person and she has a most wonderful father. May the rest of your life, her life and your grandchild's be filled with true love, true joy and true happiness. The love of a family is indeed a great gift. Thank you for sharing.

Subject: Welcome Chris and Carla From: John Macgregor To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 05:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Welcome aboard Chris and Carla, You won't regret it for a second. Great posts. Love, John

Subject: RIP. Stephen Jay Gould (ot. I guess..) From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:21:43 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Truly I am cut up about this. It was only last week my co-founder of Friends of Charles Darwin told me in the pub that Gould was probably terminally ill... If you haven't read any of his essays, please do so. If you haven't read any of his books, then try 'The Panda's Thumb', or, especially, 'The Mismeasure of Man'. Truly brilliant. Who knows, they might even stay in print longer than the collected satsangs of Shri Hans... Sorry, but I am in tears right now. Seriously. I will do a longer post in the next couple of days. A proper attempted tribute. Along with Dawkins, this guy changed (possibly saved?) my life from terminal cult-think forever. 'Science is not a heartless pursuit of objective information. It is a creative human activity, its geniuses acting more as artists than as information processors' Amen and RIP. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1999000/1999341.stm

Subject: Fitting tributes - better than.. From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: NIgel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: ...I could do. From Steven Rose and Steve Jones in today's Guardian. No, I don't know whay the hell you have to be called 'Steve' to become an acclaimed biologist, but there you have it - just one of those things, I guess. ('Nigel's, I have noticed in drama and fiction, tend to be prats, toffs or bastards). BTW: I like the bit about 'Darwin wars' where Steven Rose makes the often-missed point that Gould and Dawkins, both Darwinians through and through, agreed with one another on far more than they disagreed. Guardian obit www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4418543,00.html

Subject: Re: RIP. Stephen Jay Gould (ot. I guess..) From: Scott T. To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:56:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel: I heard it was abestos poisoning that led to cancer. Very sad. I dunno. I see something very profound in the laws of probability and statistics, but felt his insights and explanations were clear and invaluable; even if they don't particularly resolve all the deep questions about the origin and course of 'life.' I also don't agree with his conclusions about the *place* of man in that cosmology, but removing from the agenda those cherished beliefs that simply *can't* be true is worth a lot. And he was spot on about baseball. Batters aren't worse just because the last 400 hitter was 55 years ago. It's just that the game has 'tightened up' so that the variance is smaller. No way would Ted Williams or Rogers Hornsby or Ty Cobb be hitting 400 today, even in their best form. But the mean batting average is right where it was in 1900. Hasn't moved a bit. --Scott

Subject: Sorry for you, Nige From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:09:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nige, I just could never get into any of his stuff but if you really think it's worth the effort, I'll try again. Which? Sorry fo you, Nige.

Subject: It's ok - the moment has passed.. From: Nigel To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 14:35:21 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Actually, given the fact he held two professorships and had that publication record etc., I'd say SJG had as happy and fulfilled a life as anyone could reasonably hope for. Which books? Hard to say, really - it's a matter of taste but I like his books of essays a lot (eg. 'Panda's Thumb' and 'Bully for Brontasaurus'). I wouldn't recommend anyone attempting to read 'Wonderful Life' though, unless they are obsessively fascinated by Pre-Cambrian fossils. Actually, I am just sad that another great popular scientific communicator has gone - like Richard Feynman and Carl Sagan, not so long ago. Always a shame - there are so few of them who do it well etc., against the massed ranks of Creationism, pseudoscience, new-age garbage. They should all be treasured whilst still around, I think. More important - they left their mark and in a very real sense are still with us.

Subject: NB: Stephen Jay Gould From: Nigel To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:51:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Typed in haste, I corrected the spelling with the post editor, but it doesn't appear like that on the forum index.

Subject: Random cruelty of godless planet From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:08:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or divine wisdom of all-seeing, all-knowing creator - take your pick.

Subject: OK 'God' (AKA Rawat !?)- so you exist do you? From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:35:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I guess it makes perfect sense that you do. As you are the 'Superior-Power-in-Person' you can then do what the hell you like - can't you? Who are we to protest, we are all equally disposable, and none of us can know your grand fucking plan. Well, bully for you and fuck off - I'd rather do without you.

Subject: After the shock comes courage From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:28:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When a premie finds there was more going on than just stage behavior, usually shock is the first reaction. I've been surprised by those that excuse the behavior. One sorta Pam, and connected to Pams, said that she knows all this, initiators know all this, they don't get it, they don't get M, they get screwed up if they think about it, and instead just listen to satsang and practice the techniques. They go to programs and Amaroo, but they don't understand the bizzar behavior, nor particularly like it. It makes one wonder, then, why one wouldn't disentangle theirself? An interesting phenomenom occurs with parents whose kids I have spent time with. They pay huge amounts of money to go to an exclusive private school that is poorly run, with bad curriculum giving their children inferior academic abilities, the teachers wave favoritism around, the school politics further a caste mentallity among the parents and children, the kids are in crisis and the parents on the edge of nervous breakdowns, yet they stay. Why, I constantly ask, would they pay for such abuse? Because they can't tear themselves away from the perceived exclusive environment, and that only 'losers' leave or are forced out. The parents that finally have had enough of their child being hurt call it quits, even if their social standing suffers. It takes an awful lot of honest courage to extricate one's child and one's self from a dysfunctional, unhealthy environment. It wouldn't seem so, but it does. Those that stay, feel somehow they can't manage without these schools, their entire social image is tied into them and they have become completely dependent on these structures, despite the harm to their children. The amazing thing is, most were well meaning parents who only wanted a good education for their child, whether they could afford it or not. After they are out for a while, and experience a healthy academic environment, they can't believe they tolerated one minute of abuse towards their child, or were part of the parent pta hierarchy, vying for top billing. The crux of the matter is, it takes grit and fortitude to get oneself out of an unhealthy place no matter where it is.

Subject: ...or Denial From: PW To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:08:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that Vikki. It strikes me that the reason that many premies accept Maharaji's less delightful personality traits and behaviour, even though they may be uncomfortable about it, is that we are all probably more creatures of habit than we care to imagine and so premies are simply not in the habit of questioning the Master. I think that the main area that these premies have maybe not given much consideration to (unwisely), is the much bandied postulation that a master's private behaviour is not a criteria by which one can make judgements about the efficacy of his teaching. I was considering this the other day. I have a very old friend (from school actually) who scorned all my attempts to impress him about Maharaji and Knowledge when I first became a premie (1974) but who for some bizarre reason decided that by the early eighties, that Knowledge and M was the way to go. Whether he consciously or subconsciously 'waited' for Maharaji to tone the whole trip down or not before joining up I cannot say. All I know as that he missed out on the period when Maharaji was making much more life changing demands on his followers whether it be through the intimidating tone of his former satsangs (as exemplified in Kissimee), the more Indian style philosophy and trappings, (Arti, pranaming, etc etc.) the need to surrender to Him, (Ashrams) or the general encouragement to make sacrifices to serve Him and dedicate every moment to practicing Knowledge, seeing Him etc. So this friend is a great example of someone who has 'Knowledge Lite' as it has come to be known. I, on the other hand, have a totally different experience and was subject to quite different demands. From 17 to 25 I believed that I should give up meat, drugs and alcohol and sex largely because Maharaji had defined those 'renunciations' as being sort of requisite standards of behaviour if you were really serious about 'Realising Knowledge' or following Him. My pal was not co-erced or 'encouraged' to do any of those things and consequently has no personal regrets. Try as I might I simply cannot forgive and forget that Maharaji re-awakened and played on the fears and beliefs that I had accrued from my 'middle-class Christian upbringing' (which I had been making a fairly good job on my own of rejecting up until he came along) and in effect burdened me with a load of stuff that I did not need and subsequently have had to unload through my own efforts. My friend seems to have been impressed that it was somehow my, and the early premies fault that we somehow created this more Indian religious cult and therefore have only ourselves to blame for corrupting the innocent Maharaji. He simply has bought the wishful thinking that we misinterpreted and corrupted Maharaji and his message and are now the whining losers. The point of all this is that now my friend really does feel that his Master's private behaviour is IRRELEVANT TO HIS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE whereas I of course have been at the receiving end of some of Maharaji's mistakes and so naturally cannot say the same. The disturbing thing though is that my friend is aparently so besotted with his 'personal experience' that he seems to be entirely incapable of any empathy towards people who got a raw deal. To me this is just another example of the fundamentally savage and selfish nature of human beings. The question is 'To what degree is it Right or Wrong to ignore someone's faults because one feels that the good they do outweighs their bad effects?' I expect we could all think of lieterally dozens of people who we could apply this to and we would probably in truth realise that we encounter this dilemma quite frequently in our daily relationships. My answer to this problem generally is to make sure that my involvement with such people is not contributing in any way to their 'Negativity' as I perceive it. In short I feel compelled to avoid any interaction with them which may encourage or be perceived as endorsing or empowering their bad behaviour. Also, when I feel that I have a fair chance of successfully communicating with them or indeed others who know that person, with regard to the errors of their ways I will generally do so if I think I can affect a healthy change. In the case of such a person who is also doing something I admire or is giving me something I enjoy or that enriches my life, but who does other things that I dissapprove of, I will make a distinction and support them ONLY in the things that they do which I deem positive or harmless and if I can, dissuade them from their other wrong-doings. As premies we clearly saw Maharaji as someone with massive redeeming qualities because we were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for many years. So, in my opinion, what has changed is that I have gradually made the 'ethical' choice to make a distinction between the things that Maharaji says or does that I approve of and those that I don't. I don't think that I, personally, have ever launched into a 'Carte Blanche' criticism of Maharaji where I have sought to demonise his every motive and character trait. To the contrary I have been quite careful to criticise only those things that I perceive to be his faults. Frankly I do the same for my best friends. I would say that my persistence in writing here has actually quite a lot to do with the degree of care and love I had for Maharaji over the years. Something in us wants to change our loved ones if we find fault in them. Often we are frustrated in our attempts. I detect that frustration in a few premies I know who have been around a long time. There are indeed things about Maharaji that they dissapprove of and, as we can see by Premie Nobody's post the other day, they occasionally voice criticism to Maharaji himself. At the end of the day however I don't think they have confidence that they can, through their mild demonstrations, hope to affect much change in Maharaji and so they simply just give up or do not bother. If others suffer they will maybe express some empathy (as a number of PAMs have done with me) but will basically hold to the un-idealistic notion that Maharaji is NOT for everyone or more callously, that 'to make an omelette involves breaking a few eggs'. To my mind it is essential that ALL those people who are in positions of power over others, whether through a process of democratic election or through their own charismatic effect, are subject to right and just criticism of their behaviours which adversely effect others. Even if Maharaji has changed and is now a perfectly harmless 'Leader' should he rightly be allowed to remain unnaccountable for his past errors of judgement? I don't think so. I think that Maharaji is essentially guilty of not fulfilling his part of the bargain to take care of people who put themselves in his care and entrusted their well-being both spiritually and materially to him. With regard to the former he owes those, like us who simply find his behaviour and ever-changing 'Agya' confusing, some clear explanation and even apology. To the latter, who gave their time and money he may be could be successfully argued to owe some material recompense, since, certainly in the case of the ashrams, his stated plan was that people were committing themselved there, into his care, for life. I'm not holding my breath on that one. If it was even partly his mistake to accept these peoples great sacrifice, it is little wonder that it should be perceived as hugely insulting and devastating in terms of respect and trust, that whilst offering them no recompense or apology (for side-tracking them from earning their own livings) he continues to benefit and flaunt the invested fruits of their very labours in a most arrogant way and to add salt to their wounds... brags about the astuteness of his business acumen to have attained such wealth - to all intents and purposes as if he were trying to create the impression that he was the most honourable and clever of self-made men. Even Toad of Toad Hall's naive self-pride pales alongside Maharaji's image of himself as some sort of super-brilliant person who excels in everything he does. Possibly the most telling proven dissonant fact about Maharaji's life OUGHT to be, that he has been so clearly embarassed enough about his private life and confusions, that drove him presumably to alcoholism, that he actively sought to hide select parts of it from his followers. In short his eagerness to cover up the seamier-side of his private life proves that he himself KNOWS that that side of his behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest. At the very least he was ashamed of his weaknessness whilst wanting to be perceived as a man of inner strength. I personally was told by a PAM prior to meeting with Maharaji for the first time, that I should not speak about the things that I 'might' see around Maharaji's private life because premies might find it confusing. Personally I didn't see anything particularly untoward at the time and was mildly surprised that he even mentioned it, but I can now see that Maharaji's privacy was guarded vigorously for the very reason that he knew he was sometimes behaving very hypocritically. The bottom line is that a dishonest and hypocritical teacher or leader can under NO circumstances be deemed as trustworthy and is by definition a danger to his pupils. Or is there a circumstance where there is an exception to this rule? Well, with a leader like say Clinton, who was dishonest about his sexual habits, there is the big difference that he was not preaching celibacy and of course the fact that he had the decency to publically apologise and confess his dishonesty and acknowledge it's innappropriateness. Nevertheless, it behoves all teachers and leaders to demonstrate that they practice what they preach and have truly earned and will not betray the trust that is invested in them. Finally at the back of every premies mind lurks the concept of 'Lila.' At this point rationality seems to go, once and for all, completely out of the window- which, my guess, is part of the appeal. If the Master behaves badly then it is simply to test the faith of his devotees. This notion basically thereby holds up that 'blind faith' in a particular person is something good - something important to aspire to. Essentially an extremely dangerous notion. I guess that this notion relies on the hope and historical suggestion that there is such a thing as a Saviour of Mankind in the first place, who requires only absolute belief and trust before he saves you. The nearest I've ever got to understanding this theory is that by abandoning yourself and your better reason so totally you might achieve some kind of death of your 'Self' or your Ego and maybe find some 'ocean of consciousness' beyond. In practice it seems that far from seeing a bunch of shining egoless- God conscious 'drops of the infinite ocean' we instead are met with people who clearly have failed to lose their ego's despite their consistent faith, and who instead have rather ill-formed egos which are not carefully developed or checked by an active conscience or sense of ethics -not kept in check by any self-doubt and yet display little reflection of the glorious consciousness of God/ Knowledge of Self which is aspired to. In fact we just see people whose personalities and egos are floundering in a sort of limbo where the only ethics that they can aspire to are those of the Master who's ego and personality are currently preoccuppied with acting out a Lila to test everbody and are subsequently of the off-putting variety.

Subject: As an afterthought... From: PW To: PW Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... to my last post I might add that the premie friend I was referring to cannot bear to discuss the Maharaji matter with me at all now. In fact even though he knows that I have a lot to say about it, he just looks both utterly disgusted and appalled if I even touch on the subject. He has withdrawn his willingness to discuss but there is an unresolved tension when we meet as a result - 'cos secretly he longs to talk. He is one of those premies who, as I said, are so besotted with their PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that they are prepared to let M persuade them that it should remain jealousy guarded and unchallenged. I think that Maharaji has emphasised that this experience is so PRIVATE - supposedly sacrosanct and between YOU and HIM on the deepest level of your heart's longing that he has succeeded in convincing premies that their experience is kind of vulnerable and needs to be nurtured very, very privately or else it could be sort of trodden on by doubting Thomases like me. Hence all the secrecy about the techniques etc... I have to confess that I resent that Maharaji comes along and establishes this private, secret sacrosanct relationship with my long-standing friends which makes them feel they cannot discuss their deepest experiences and longings any more. We used to have a pact to have no secrets! Funnily enough when I was at school , a small circle of friends (including this guy) became very committed to finding God and Truth through every available means - at first through the Christian groups and then Mescaline and LSD! We forged a deep bond and the idea that some Guru would come along and drive a wedge between our communication - forbidding us to discuss or analyse our experiences - would have been anathema. We knew we were sincere and there were no precious secrets. There are only a couple of dear honest brave souls left who aren't scared to discuss their Maharaji relationship. When I was 17 I discovered Premies and was delighted to find generally a brotherhood of souls with the same intentions, honesty and commitment to Truth as myself. Not all, but most premies had an innocent enthusiasm and real sincerity - and certainly none of this 'I can't talk about it -it's too precious - it's between me and my M'raji' dreaminess. We still valued each other and got inspiration from each other. There was even , dare I say, some revolutionary spirit and real brotherly love and maybe some real magic. Few premies still show this openess and fresh desire to move on towards Truth. I used to have literally hundreds of premie friends around here and now, of those that are left who could be described as 'practicing premies' , only a very few will ever be friendly or get in touch. Funnily enough, it's people like Glen and some other of the more old-school premies (who presumably appreciate the earnestness of ex-premies!) who are the most friendly and unthreatened by my presence when I see them. I am actually very warmed by their continued friendliness because it is far from the norm. All the other 'community' premies look at me as some kind of raving Judas I think. They are clearly horrendously threatened and/ or glare at me with utter dissapproval and clenched teeth. You can almost hear the knives being sharpened. I confess I don't particularly miss the premie scene at all, in fact I am really quite delighted to find myself free from having to spend my time in the company of people with pencils firmly embedded up their bottoms... and I can get on with my life better without their uptight influence. Also I feel that their reticence to socialise with me confirms that they have got the message that someone is prepared to champion the cause of Doubt! and that there is truly life after Knowledge and that there's no need to fear expressing your misgivings. Apart from that, I have a bunch of friends who sensibly gave up on the whole thing years ago and there are also actually a lot of quite ardent exes who I see from time to time around here . It's ironic, because sometimes I will have been meditating gloriously and be floating along blissfully without giving Maharaji any gratitude! and I will bump into some premie who will twitch and contort and look so uncomfortable and I will be thinking 'Hey, I'm having that experience you think is so exclusive and is tied up with Maharaji and yet you are more uptight and freaked out than me because you think I can't possibly be 'in that place' - Wrong!' PW

Subject: Two excellent posts from Pat W [nt] From: Livia To: PW Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:24:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: But what would you expect? :) [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:02:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, we've gotten tired of thanking him From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:13:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We just expect him to write excellent posts all the time without any gratitude from us - purely as selfless service. :C)

Subject: Re: Yes, we've gotten tired of thanking him From: PatW To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:39:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ha Ha! yes don't bother to offer me any encouragement... This forum serves me well as a repository for my current ruminations and realisations about Maharaji and Knowledge. I offer them publically not just to get feedback (which is of course welcome) but because I find it very theraputic and stimulating just to write down my constantly evolving thoughts. If anyone else finds a positive resonance in my keyboard tappings or disagrees then that's great. You're spot on though - I don't need any encouragement! Tee hee. Sometimes I am amazed that anyone bothers to read my lengthy, probably verbose, posts. Look..I'm sorry..I just can't help it. I'm just a hopeless, compulsive soliloquist. I think I must have caught the habit from someone...can't think who though...

Subject: Your post was too short From: JHB To: PatW Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 05:11:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I reached the end without having to take a toilet break. John the forgotten what a hill looks like let alone giving satsang on top of one.

Subject: Re: After the shock comes courage From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:44:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They tell themselves that Maharaji's bizarre behaviour is lila, or whatever the current concept is, or some kind of a test. They also tell themselves that to question it shows them up as being stuck in their concepts of what a teacher of self-knowledge is supposed to be like. I've seen this many times on LG and have heard premies say it too. I used to think it myself! The problem with all that is that one's own ethics and morals become skewed as a result, and then you have to rationalise that too, and so on, and so on, and so on, until you become some weird imitation of the person you once were.

Subject: mid-week humour (totally OT) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:26:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's an old one, but it's a sweetie: After gaining a small family inheritance, a redneck family was visiting a mall. The father and son were strolling around while the wife shopped. They were amazed by almost everything they saw, but especially by two shiny, silver walls that could move apart and then slide back together again. The boy asked, 'Paw, What's 'at?' The father (never having seen an elevator) responded, 'Son, I dunno. I ain't never seen anything like that in my entire life, I ain't got no idea'r what it is.' While the boy and his father were watching with amazement, a fat old lady in a wheel chair rolled up to the moving walls and pressed a button. The walls opened and the lady rolled between them into a small room. The walls closed and the boy and his father watched the small circular numbers above the walls light up sequentially. They continued to watch until it reached the last number and then the numbers began to light in the reverse order. Finally the walls opened up again and a gorgeous, voluptuous 24-year-old blonde woman stepped out. The father, not taking his eyes off the young woman, said quietly to his son: 'Boy, go git yer Ma.'

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:49:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: '' Yorkshire clubbers have recently resorted to using dental syringes to inject Ecstacy directly into the mouth: this lethal practise is know as 'E BY GUM', and should be reported immediately.'' :~) :~)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for anybody From: Been There To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 22:19:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do a dyslexic, an insomniac and an agnostic have in common? They stay up all night wondering if there really is a 'Dog'.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Neville To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:02:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unless they're dyslexic clubbers. Then they inject F. Neville

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or a rich dyslexic pimp who opened a warehouse...

Subject: or the dyslexic alcoholic ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:06:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or the dyslexic alcoholic ... ... who choked on his own Vimto

Subject: Re: or the dyslexic depressive.. From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 13:59:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or the dyslexic depressive with diarrhoea who couldn't decide whether the bottom had fallen out of his world, or the world had fallen out of his bottom..

Subject: would that be giving it some F'in mouth? (nt) From: cq To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:13:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: would that be giving it some F'in mouth?

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Bolly Shri To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:01:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I might try that,

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL - hilarious. If that is only mid-week, I eagerly waiting for the weekend humour.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That costs extra!! weekend rates, doncha know old bean ;-);-);-);-) ;~)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:45:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some say I am a millionaire, some say I am penniless. How say you to 10 pence or a used luncheon voucher?

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK u win, this is for a used luncheon vulture Guy goes into a bar and walks up to a woman; He says 'if I give you five bucks, will you have sex with me??' ' Certainly not!!!'... she retorts 'so what if I give you a million bucks, will you have sex then??' 'er...sure'...she says, fussing up her hair.. 'ah, so you ARE a hooker!' he says. 'FUCK NO! ..' she yells...'whatever gave you that idea??' 'well , I thought we were just negotiating a price...' (duh..)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone see the IQ test last week? The town with the lowest IQ was Burnley. This was the only town that voted in 2 National Fronters in local elections last week. For non-Brits: this is not a joke

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A brain and a jump-lead go into a pub for a drink. The brain goes up to the bar to order a couple of pints of beer. 'Sorry', says the barman. 'I'm not serving you. In fact, you'll have to leave, I'm afraid.' 'But why?' pleads the brain 'Well, you're out of your head and your mate here looks as if he's about to start something.' Love, Liv

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Polar bear goes into a bar, walks up to the bar... 'pint of lager aaaaannndddd..............................................................................................a bag of nuts' 'sure' says the barman, but why the long paws?' xxx

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:50:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Horse in a bar, barman says, why the long face? Quick, we had better take this thread offline, before the FAs get onto our case. Meet you over there --- > Where? < --- - there forget it :) T

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Man goes into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of the front of his trousers. Barman says: 'Did you know you have a steering wheel sticking out of the front of your trousers?' 'Yeah' says the man, 'it's driving me nuts'. (love that one about the E by gum, AV) :)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: Thorin To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cq there does'nt seem to be a great deal of appetite for a spiritual ex forum wheras there is for a Humour Ex forum. Fancy being the FA? best, Thorin PS why was 6 scared of 7? Because 789

Subject: You sound reasonable... From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:44:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound reasonable... must be time to up my medication. How about a forum for ex-premie Mensan divorcees from Ealing Broadway who used to work for the BBC and who can touch the tip of their nose with their tongue? Nah, - way too much specialisation. Remember the bosses' first law of management: 'No job is so urgent that you can't find someone else to do it'.

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: *Lamer* To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:21:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some possible lame rules for a future Humour Forum: ( Note: not to be taken seriously) ;) : - 1) Always be sincere, even if you don't mean it. If you stop to think,, don't forget to start again. 2) Do not believe anything you hear or anything you say on this forum. All generalizations are false; and if anyone refutes you with statistics, remember -- 63% of all statistics are meaningless. 3) Re ethnic jokes -- all nationalities will be allowed to contribute, so that the Brits do not dominate. Oopelai ;) 4) Sexual harrassment on this forum will not be reported. However, it WILL be graded. 5) Those who agree with you may not be right, but you can admire their perspicacity. However, if they question your motives, don't force the issue -- get a larger hammer. Try not to threaten to break a critic's limb --- I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. (suggested by: Trailer Park Crispy)

Subject: Re: mid-week humour for brits :) From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:16:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: where do you go to weigh a pie?? er..somewhere...over the rainbow? sorry..:@)

Subject: the cat's whiskers ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:43:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Kittens' Maharaji is out on Malibu Main Street one afternoon and he notices a little boy on the corner with a box. Curious he strolls over to the child and says, 'What's in the box kid?' To which the little boy says, 'Kittens, they're brand new kittens.' Maharaji laughs and says, 'What kind of kittens are they?' 'Premies,' the child says. 'Oh that's cute,' M says and he waddles off. A couple of days later Maharaji is out taking a stroll with his pal Jonathan Cainer (his #1 donator) and sees the same boy with his box just ahead. M says to Cainer 'I've gotta check this out' and they both walk over to the boy with the box. M says, 'Look in the box Jonathon, isn't that cute? Look at those little kittens. Hey kid tell my friend Jonathon what kind of kittens they are.' The boy replies, 'They're ex-premies.' 'Whoa!', Maharaji says, 'I came by here the other day and you said they were premies. What's up?' 'Well,' the kid says, 'Their eyes are open now.'

Subject: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:18:29 (PDT) Email Address: pdconlon@hotmail.com Message: If you type the word ''spiritual'' into Google, you get 5,920,000 websites. (Try it if you don't believe me.) A whole bunch of them are forums or chatrooms or Yahoo clubs. There are hundreds of spiritual Yahoo clubs. There are Sufi clubs, Zen clubs, Gay Wicca clubs, Tantra clubs, Viapassana clubs, Landmark clubs. In short the net provides a smorgasbord of New Ageism and spiritualism. Some are also about being ex-cult members. One of these is called Recent Ex-premie Forum which I don't know much about. From the little I know, I gather it was meant to be a kinder, gentler forum for traumatised recent ex-premies - a detox or rehab joint. There are whispers that it was started as a password protected forum to exclude people like Jim - atheists, anti-spiritualists and other objectivists - labelled ''bullies'' by the more sensitive spiritual exes. I don't know much about RE but, if you are interested in it, you can email JHB and ask for info about applying to join. But this isn't about the plethora of spiritual websites available to those with that inclination - including the one which caters especially to ex-premies. This is about a question which has been raised several times this week. Is F7 anti-spiritual and therefore unfriendly to spiritual exes? This accusation was levelled by that anonymous site which appeared a few days ago saying that F7 was an anti-cult cult. But for days before that, certain exes who post on the premie forum, LG, have been saying this. In the year and a half that I've been involved here, I've had more emails than I can count telling me the same thing. I nearly even lost a good friend over this issue. So yes, it is a common complaint and I have to honestly admit that F7 is not spiritual-friendly. Deputy Dog has been so hounded by us nasty atheists here that he has had to resort to posting on the premie forum. I find that sad - that certain ex-premies do not feel welcome here and that I have been partly to blame. I don't mean those exes who are bored with the whole topic and no longer interested in talking about it anymore and prefer hunting ducks on AG. They've at least got a forum to cater to their tastes just as those who enjoy talking about politics and other OT stuff have Symp. I feel sorry for those who don't have a ''spiritual'' forum and perhaps don't like the idea of ''joining'' a password-protected club like RE. I'm offering to set up a forum for them. I obviously don't want to be FA. Someone else will have to volunteer for that but I'll do the start-up work involved to get it going. Hotboards can be password-protected if that's what you want and, unlike the klutzy Yahoo club ''email'' format, it would have the same familiar ''forum'' interface as this one. Perhaps Dep would like to be FA. Why am I offering this? Because I am not one to judge others too much. One man's meat etc. If there is a need for such a spiritual forum, I'll help because I can't promise not to be a ''nasty atheist'' on this forum. I'm offering because this forum is probably too polemical and most of the spiritual exes don't like that. They prefer to discuss things in an un-argumentative way. I'm offering to help set up a ''spiritual ex'' forum (and promising to stay off it) because I can't promise not to argue here. BUT I'll argue with anything HERE that I don't like. To me, this forum has to be as wide-open as possible in order to keep it honest. Keeping it wide-open intellectually means that all ideas are discussed. It means no sacred cows. As long as spiritual stuff is posted here, I'll try to shoot it down in flames. Why? Because to me the whole ''spiritual'' shebang is a herd of sacred cows. Since seeing through Rev Rawat and Maharajism, I am totally allergic to spiritual guess-work, theological speculation and subjective assumptions. I have long detested New Ajism and other religions. It was basically discovering that Maharajism is simply another New Age religion, that drove me out of the cult. When I read premies talking about M and K either here or on their forum, it's like fingernails scratching a chalkboard for me. And I feel the same way about all New Ajism. In fact I feel the same way about ALL religions. I cannot stand the business. To me the manufacturers of the ''opiate of the masses'' are not much better than the cocaine merchants of the Cali cartel. So, if you are a spiritual ex-premie, and don't like what I have to say to you about your religion here on F7, then email me and I'll set up a forum for you and even show you how to block Jim, Nigel, me and the other atheists.

Subject: Here is Jim's missing post From: Sir Dave To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's a simple job finding a lost post, provided you've read it. Just use the history section of your web browser in offline mode and you'll find it so long as it's on your cache. While I disagree with Jim's explanation for being blocked from The ANYTHING GOES forum, I will repost his missing Forum 7 post since it can be done. Here is Jim's missing post: Hi Pat, Well, I just noticed that Dave blocked me again on AG. Seems that Dave will allow Selene, Deb, Salam or himself to say anything, true or not, no matter how ugly, no matter how absurd but he just won't tolerate anyone objecting. Knowing that he's ostensibly asked that no one discuss Maharaji or any interpersonal conflicts there, but seeing that that's exactly what the above-mentioned are doing to their hearts' content, and seeing as he'd just unblocked me, I most gingerly dared to invite these various good folk to join me on Symp to discuss matters. That's all it took, I guess, and I'm blocked all over again. :) Anyway ........ sigh anyway..... It's true, isn't it, that if one of us F7 regulars shepherded and even hosted a specifically spiritual ex-premie forum those who try to somehow dismiss this forum as a 'cult' would lose an arrow in their quiver. On the other hand, however, they have no legitimate complaint to begin with so let's not fool ourselves that anything we do, no matter what, will satisfy them. Their criticism is born of either infantile, emotional reaction to the facts and arguments here or, worse, it's willful and cynical disinformation. I can't see how any rational measure on our part, whatever its nominal symbolic effect, could ever make a difference. If it did, it would only be because certain forum detractors know how silly they're being and would use an accomodation like that as an excuse to 'come in from the cold' so to speak. I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't have all that much against such a forum. I guess I could even agree to bite my tongue and not say anything or ask a single question there because, as you know, the moment that happens, the moment someone dares ask 'Really? How do you know?' the party's pretty well over. We've actually had those threads here on the forum lots. They can be interesting and vigorous, mature debates such as those with Mike Finch last year. In fact, anyone who claims otherwise would do well to find those arguments in the archives and really look them over. I'm not saying they were perfect or that I or others conducted ourselves at the highest possible level of respect and civillity throughout. I don't know about you but I, personally, have never been perfect and talking with Mike, for me anyways, wasn't any exception. Still, the threads are good! They're meaningful. They reflect real, honest discussion between sincere people with opposing viewpoints on some difficult but important issues. No one 'ganged up' on anyone. There were no shrill calls for blood, no rampant bullying or intimidation or whatever other silly claims F7 critics like to trot out. (The latest, I think, is Deborah's claim that we 'inner circle' exes -- ask her for the roster, don't ask me -- use secret coded-language to manipulate and program the poor, feckless souls who happen to read here.) No, those discussions were respectful and, frankly, I think it's a pity that anyone would think they had to find another clearing in the woods to have them as, quite honestly, the only benefit that would bring would be the tacit (or even explicit?) sign at the gate: 'NO HARD QUESTIONS ALLOWED' (or variations like 'QUESTIONS INVITED BUT ONLY TWO PER VISITOR AND NO FOLLOW-UPS!' or 'QUESTIONS WELCOME BUT DO NOT CHALLENGE THE INTEGRITY OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF'). Alternatively, we have the threads regarding spiritual topics with Janet or Deputy Dog. Take a look at those too for, in the words of Monty Python, something completely different. In Janet's case, she has, at times, made some absolutely fantastic claims, such as specific, concrete visitations by one or another spiritual master. aliens perhaps. (Honestly, I'm not trying to mischaracterize her claims. That's just how I remember them.) I, for one, invariably challenged her perceptions. Why? Because, perhaps like JHB, I, too, don't want to miss out on heaven and eternity. If they're out there, point me in the right direction and I'll start waving too. :) However, all I can do is use my mind and follow my thoughts sincerely. I long ago realized that the one bit of advice I must always scrutinize with as much vigour as I can is that which urges me to not follow my mind because, as I learned in my experiences in a certain cult I joined, ionce I've taken that advice, I'm no longer even 'on my own'. Where am I? Hell if I know. So, yeah, invariably I would try to test Janet's extraordinary claims as strongly as I know how. She, however, didn't like to play. Now here's an obviously smart woman, verbal and articulate, who loves to talk about things generally. She comes here making such extreme, important claims and ...what? She doesn't expect to be challenged? Janet grew silent each and every time I asked. Thus we were unable to explore further any possible alternative source for her 'visions', the possible association they just might have with her schizophrenia, choice of reading material, friends, environment, anything. Yes, there are those threads too. Then there are the threads with people like Dog who, as you can see, has a very significant mental disconnect with respect to his basic 'assumptions' as Livia called them. You can see from his post that Dog is still inclined to preach his best advice and worldview as strongly as feels in any one moment. Yet he adamantly refuses to even look at where he came from intellectually or the efficacy of any of his current ideas. Ask Dog and he'll tell you he has no ideas. I can't help but wonder, therefore, why he'd want a spiritual ex-forum at all, seeing as there's really nothing to discuss. :) And yes, I admit it, those discussions with Dog are far from pleasant. Yes, I've told him I have no respect for him, his attitude and yes, I've told him to get lost. Hey, what can I tell you? I'm human. Sue me. Better yet, get Deborah to sue me. :) I jut can't tolerate that kind of wilfull blindness, especially from someone, like Dog, who argued with us for literally years here before even accepting that Maharaji just might not be a valid guru after all. (A null set for me in any event). Life isn't the safe little candy box w ewant it to be. We found shelter at the feet of the Lord of the Universe, Shri Satguru Dev Maharj Ji and 'knew' that we were saved from loneliness, death and despair by the precursor to the primordial and self-effulgent Prem Rawat Foundation. But, it turns out, we were wrong. Now we're stuck facing reality all over again and, sorry, but there are no guarantees that reality's going to satisfy all our desires, assuage our fears and concerns, like spirituality always promises. And yes it does promise that. In one form or another, even the buddhists have a program to 'make it all okay'. That's the whole point. This isn't some children's story book. We're not at the back of the north wind. We're not in Narnia. We're alive -- in this world -- and I, for one, want to know what that really means. And yes, if my mind can't get it, I'm not going. I've already seen that show. Enough of that.

Subject: Thanks much ... but ........?? From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While I disagree with Jim's explanation for being blocked from The ANYTHING GOES forum, I will repost his missing Forum 7 post since it can be done. What part do you disagree with? Is it not the case that you are letting Deborah, Salam, Selene and yourself of course discuss me, Pat, the forum and the exes in general, regardless of your current stated prohibitions? Is it not the case that I posted three posts since you unblocked me, one to you disagreeing with your claim to Zelda that none but her and Salam care about his (false) accusation against Pat re Zelda? Is it not the case that I also posted once to Selene and once to Deb, both times acknowledging that you apparently didn't want any fights on AG and thus inviting them to debate their various lies, as I call them, on Symp? Hm?

Subject: This explains it From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:26:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No Jim. The ANYTHING GOES forum is now for discussing anything else but you, Forum 7, Maharaji, factions or anything of that nature. It is for discussing things that are irrelevant to premies and ex-premies, such as the weather, horse racing, betting, alternatives to meditation, cooking, knitting, cars, hamsters and any other number of nice unrelated-to-maha subjects. It can also be used for humour or even Gerry's fantastic conspiracy theories. I'm moving it away from any of the feuds and ex v ex battles or premie/ex-premie divides. Such things are now strictly off-topic. This is how I've always wanted it to be. The forum needs a rest from you Jim and you need a rest from the people and related arguments. Well, you can continue those arguments but please, not on The ANYTHING GOES forum. And that goes for anyone.

Subject: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:03:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't believe you at all. That is, I don't believe that you are a fair arbitrer of this or any related issue. In the brief period I was able to see AG again I noticed that all sorts of people were talking about the forum, exes in general, Maharaji for sure and me as well. But I join in in small part relative to all that noise and you blocked me again. Like I said, I don't trust you. As far as I'm concerned, there's a whole conversation on AG right now all about this and you're right in there laughing your head off.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:47:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you ask Pat? He'll vouch for me.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:50:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you answer my questions?

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Sir Dave To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have answered your questions. You just don't like the answers.

Subject: Re: I don't believe you From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:08:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hardly. You didn't answer them at all.

Subject: Re: This explains it From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: DAve, I could read only about one quarter of the cached stuff and couldn't find Livia's original post. Could you possibly have a look? It was in this thread. Not sure of the title, 'Exes suck and they are unreasonable louts' or something like that. :)

Subject: No can do From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:45:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't open Livia's post so it's not on my cache.

Subject: Oh, and just to be clear From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:05:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it also not true that in each case where I did say something to Selene or Deb or you I was merely responding to current threads and things they'd said, rather than start something myself?

Subject: Go for it Patsy From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:01:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: haven't read the rest of the thread... but it seems like a good idea to me... a kinda half-way-house between FV11 and Recent Exes. A place where disenchanted wavering premies can explore their 'inner states'. Block the atheist bastards - that's wot I reckon :). No, but seriously, give the people what they want. Only way to go, realistically :)

Subject: After a long-term run with the devil From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:05:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how could an ex-premie have one spiritual cell left? Think about it. Even if there is a GOD, do you really think that it cares about teeny tiny human beings? Please. As one of the billions of life forms on this planet we are lucky to eat every day. However, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, I'd like to come back as a man. I want to look like Freddie Prinze Jr., have the wealth of Bill Gates, the intellectual abilities of Einstein, the power of the US Bushwacker, the heart of St. Christopher and the ruthlessness of Atilla to wipe out my enemies.

Subject: ...Warren Beaty's fingertips... [nt] From: Woody Allen To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:31:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'd like to come back.... From: Fairy Godmother To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dddddrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnnngggggggggggg (( harp gliss )) and so you shall....! AV ...dressed as fairy godmother and feeling a tad self-concious

Subject: Gail my list would be different From: hamzen To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definitely as a woman, probably a lesbian when need be, and definitwely to be born in britain again, in around 25-30 years time. I'd also add that I also woundn't mind not having more than a couple years break in between innings. Understand your choices I think, they have some logical consistancy, but don't you, errr, think that they are all a bit visible, out there, you know in your face, where's the chillin zone when the media is on you 24/7, you got more courage than me girl I can tell ya !!!! ...................;) Re the god thing, with you all the way, different flavours maybe, I suspect you went off on more of a god one than me, so yeah flavours different, but yeah otherwise bigtime. I still do believe periods of flow can be generated by a positive attitude, at an intensity not reachable otherwise, and I mean absolutely no spiritual there. If there are any oddball and unexplainable effects amonghst that then I reckon it's us connecting through the quantum level in some way, the word singularity is coming to mind, not sure what it means though, probably a complete irrelevance, any dictionaries out there? God as a concept I am neutral about, see it as a complete irrelevance, for me, whatever, who can be a 100% sure, so until I get incontrivertible proof, and I don't just mean 'god's talking to me' through whatever means. When you know a persinger magnetic helmet can bring you directly face-to-face with god, on a totally reliable basis, and you're right there while that magnet is over a specific spot in your brain, for me that justs posits so many question marks....

Subject: Multidimensional post there, hammy From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:53:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think Gail was exaggerating a bit, though. When you know a persinger magnetic helmet can bring you directly face-to-face with god, on a totally reliable basis, and you're right there while that magnet is over a specific spot in your brain, for me that justs posits so many question marks.... Is god a state of mind? It's beg'ning to appear that way. Weird, huh? Hey did you ever get to gander at that spoof pic I did on his Majesty's love knob?

Subject: Nope, comes up as a missed link From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:01:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh and good multidimensional I hope ;) :) I reckon it's a mac thing, cause Barry's links here used to do the same thing and I don't have probs on any other forum I visit, and all the pc'ers seemed to see them. And hey gerr, while on a techie trip, could you fix my reply to jed? I edited it, and when you open it up the changes show, but in the thread list it stays the same, just me?

Subject: The editor won't work that way From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:07:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I ran into this problem recently myself, Ham. There's nothing we can do about it. It's a hotboards thing. Sorry.

Subject: Ces't la vie From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do follow my link in my reply to ebb down below, think you'll enjoy! Oh and just in case you missed my edit, good multi-dimensional I hope ;) :)

Subject: wow....that was just great From: Jethro To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:10:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can I quote you on that? Jethro

Subject: Fee-Fi-Forum From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:26:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are definitely good reasons for starting such a forum, PatC, and I would probably post there. I might be a little less inhibited in discussing matters spiritual. But I haven't been the victim of much flaming here. I've even admitted to having a current spiritual teacher without having you or Jim or anyone tell me I'm an idiot. (Well, I've been put down a couple of times in the last two or three years, but I haven't taken it personally.) I think the discussion between the spirit-struck and the materialists has been pretty healthy for the most part, and a clear demonstration of the various paths one can take after breaking free of the insidious Rawat Doctrine. Interesting issues brought up on this thread. I'm undecided about whether, all things considered, it would be a good idea, but, hey, that's a Libra for you. Not that I believe in astrology or anything.

Subject: Excuse me Pat but why can't From: Jethro To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a 'spiritual ex'go to one of the 5,919,999 websites you mentioned above. (I have excluded recent exs since it is an exclusive club just like premies. ) There are some incredible clubs out there, where people without anything to sell will discuss everything about meditation. I even met nectar-tasters out there...and guess what they never heard of m or secret initiations. Anyway, just thought I 'd tell you that, IMNSHO, I think you'de be wasting good time setting up such a forum. Let them, whoever they are, do it themselves if that's what they want. Chow for now, maybe see u soon in SA Jethro

Subject: whoops sorry jed, shoulda been for pat (nt) From: hamzen To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:37:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ah, whah

Subject: Jethro, you got it in one From: PatC To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:35:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why can't a 'spiritual ex'go to one of the 5,919,999 websites you mentioned above. (I have excluded recent exs since it is an exclusive club just like premies. ) There are some incredible clubs out there, where people without anything to sell will discuss everything about meditation. I even met nectar-tasters out there...and guess what they never heard of m or secret initiations. Anyway, just thought I 'd tell you that, IMNSHO, I think you'de be wasting good time setting up such a forum. Let them, whoever they are, do it themselves if that's what they want. Chow for now, maybe see u soon in SA Jethro --- That was precisely one of the subtler points I was making. But you'll miss me of you go to SA. I'm in SF, USA. :C)

Subject: You do realize he's on the pull (ot) From: hamzen To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:44:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thinks he offering you a holiday in South Africa Pat, he's a very rich man you know!!!!!! And who knows, maybe more if it went that way, he's quite experimental you know!! And you get to get your roots cleaned, could be interesting. :)

Subject: Definitely BEST OF From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:54:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And that's not nepotism unless a ''marriage of true minds'' counts. But, as Nigel pointed out below, unfortunately as soon as two or more exes are gathered together in rational agreement, they are branded a cult by - well, you know who. Not only Janet's alien ascended masters and Dep's ''nothing is something and something is nothing'' (or whatever his latest koan is) but most of spiritualism cannot stand up to the question: ''Really? How do you know?'' As you said: 'NO HARD QUESTIONS ALLOWED' (or variations like 'QUESTIONS INVITED BUT ONLY TWO PER VISITOR AND NO FOLLOW-UPS!' or 'QUESTIONS WELCOME BUT DO NOT CHALLENGE THE INTEGRITY OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM ITSELF'). Yep, it begins to look a lot like Rev Rawat's Question and Answer sessions - you know the ones where no questions are allowed. But I am sincere in my offer. Only Janet has accepted so far. Dep feels happy to post on LG and AG. But, as I pointed out, I can't finance it. Who will? And no one has offered to FA it yet either. As for as being blocked/unblocked/blocked from AG. Methinks you were perhaps using a different computer which got you past the block and now Sir Dave has blocked that computer too. He never intended to unblock you. Who cares? (Unless you want to read a whole thread about Sir Dave and Salam putting their ''cocks in a woman's ass.'') AG really is not ony inconsequential but also ''meaningless and trivial'' in the words of some gate-crasher over there. :P:C)

Subject: BEST OF NOTHING -- IT DISAPPEARED!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:49:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, what happened? My post is gone!

Subject: Re: BEST OF NOTHING -- IT DISAPPEARED!! From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:54:40 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I noticed your post is gone and also my reply to you. I cut and pasted the announcement of your blocking on AG and pontificated about a spiritual forum.... Thought pat may have blocked me.... but couldnt figure out where your post went. Maybe somebody doesnt like me talking to you.. Zelda

Subject: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:30:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Zelda, I just talked with Gerry who did in fact delete your post and mine. He was too busy right now to post an explanation himself but he authorized me to explain what he said and why. I'm sure he'll add further when he gets a chance. Yes, Gerry deleted your post. He got mine by accident in the process. He apologized to me but, sorry Zelda, not you. Here's why. First, some background. Gerry's the subject of some ugly harrassment, in all likelihood from one of the cult members, perhaps someone like Roupell, Cat or who knows who. Someone's been using their computer to call his phone every fifteen minutes for the last two days! Can you imagine? Every fifteen minutes you have to answer the phone just to hang it up again. Hour in, hour out. Great, eh? Why do I accuse one of the cult members and, in particular, one of the LG crew? Because Gerry's number is unlisted and the only people who have it beside a few exes, family and some of their close friends and colleagues, are CD and Carlos. Carlos, I believe, would only have it if he has Call Display as Gerry called him once, he says. But CD has it. Who he might have given it to is a good question. I'd ask him myself but 1) I don't believe anything he tells me; and 2) he probably wouldn't answer. Anyway, it was against that backdrop that Gerry read your post. He tells me that it was completely insulting to the exes but rather than repeat the third-hand summary, I can tell you this. Gerry acknowledges that, were it not for the harrassment he's currently dealing with, he might have not been so quick to pull your post. In fact, he said to tell you that you could post it again -- or post whatever it was you said -- insult the hell out of us :), and we can just argue about it. As for my post ........ SHEEEEEEEIIIITT! Oh well. :)

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:04:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: oh Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Feel free to delete this if it is too messy for now.... Zelda

Subject: zelda you nailed it From: janet To: Zelda Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 04:37:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have clarified precisely what i would have said if i had put up a second post. 2 fora: one for sharing and relating and being able to speak with others in peace, unharassed. another for debate, discussion, challenge and examination. JIm thinks my silences to his challenges mean he stopped me. what he does not get is that he did not 'stop me', rather, i gauged by the aim and tone of his questions that he did not want a serious answer. he wanted to point the discussion at his ego, rather than at the subject. i regarded it comparable to a man scorning the agonies of undergoing childbirth and belittling, mocking and dismissing all women's accounts of living thru same, as if he might ever himself be able to know what it is. no amount of telling him could ever give him the experience. or belief in it. there is no point or use in attempting to replying to,engaging in conversation with a person whose precast conviction not only is ignorant, but categorically identifies his ego with believing it can't be true. if JIm could separate his ego from the questions he asks, and if he genuinely wanted to know if or how such accounts might be so, then i would engage him on it. but he doesnt actually want to know. what he wants is attention on his ego. what you have here, is essentially a message, the messenger who brings it, and the recipient. it is one thing to scorn the message. it is another to scorn the messenger. the one can be worthy even if the other is not. you can scorn both, or neither. but to disregard them out of nothing other than wanting people to view your ego as superior, is dangerous and foolhardy. the message may come again thru a different messenger. or most stunning of all, the event the message, and the messenger were coming to tell you about, may happen to you directly. then you will have no one and nothing left to scorn--and probably nothing left of your ego to hang onto, as consolation prize, either. your scorn is of no consequence to the message nor the messenger who brings it. for them, it is already known. the events, the news in its content, has already happened and is already fact. the only difference is whether it is known to you or not. and if you don't know it now, you will know it in some future moment. jim, could you convince and prove to a blind person what sight is? that it existed? could you show them great artwork, have intricate discussions of one artist's work versus another's?

Subject: Extra Senses From: JHB To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:52:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, You asked, could you convince and prove to a blind person what sight is? that it existed? could you show them great artwork, have intricate discussions of one artist's work versus another's? Are you saying that you have equivalent of an extra sense that others do not have? If so, I see your problem in communicating this. But surely, from what you say, your difficulties in communicating with people like Jim have nothing to do with their egos, but due to this extra faculty you have. It's difficult to imagine a way you could communicate it. It's a bit like the people who interpret the powerful meditation experiences as an experience of their true self or God. I believe I have had comparable meditation experiences but I no longer interpret them that way. But I could be wrong, and these other people are having completely different experiences, so I have asked them if they have any evidence apart from their own feelings, that these experiences are of God, etc. So far, no one has, so I remain unconvinced. You have had a different unusual experiences which from the outside are open to different interpretations. How can you convince us that your interpretation is correct? John.

Subject: Re: Extra Senses -not necessarily.... From: janet To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is why zelda is right about needing two different arenas in which to converse. I am not interested in going on a crusade to convince anyone else--here, or elsewhere-- about what I saw, heard, felt, perceived, experienced, understood, found out. I had no such beliefs before it happened, and what beliefs I formed afterwards were kind of confused until I went and did a lot of reading, a lot of asking, and a lot more experiencing, reflecting, contemplating and comparing with others. I never had any understanding of 'faith'. the word was a bafflement to me. I had nothing I could think of that seemed to match it. People would criticize me and tell me I needed to have more faith, and i would frown and argue that i couldnt. i had to have proof. i had to see it. you had to show me. I wasn't expecting the experiences that came to me. I didnt have some hope of them, or some preexisting concept of them. in fact, I took a highly suspicious, distrustful, prickly attitude towards the whole phenomenon when the experiences started, and kept that challenging, disbelieving stance a long, long way into it. I went to professionals and asked them to tell me I was having delusions, was having an illness, wanting them to relieve me of the burden of this new information I was receiving, daily. Not a one would agree to do it, much to my dismay. I WANTED it to be not real. I WANTED to have an excuse to push it away and go back to being 'normal'. LIfe wouldn't cooperate with my wants. The experiences kept coming. Not only to me, but people showed up who were having the same experiences; or, once hanging around with me, started having them as well, with or without me. I have never heard of more than one person sharing a hallucination. The literature does not show any cases of such a thing experienced by several people, who can converse with one another perfectly normally, and at the same time, confirm by description, repeating what dialog they hear, relating what they see, feel, smell, taste--taking place in another realm entirely, not tangibly present in the room where they physically are! I mean it, when i say I was rigorously suspicious, and put everything to a test. And much to my frustration, it passed the tests. Let me add this, for contrast: my son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. He hears voices all the time. so some sharp divergences, shown by my testing, here: I can not hear the voices he says he listens to. neither can any of my friends, nor his friends. yet these experiences I had, which i wanted someone to prove to me were symptoms of illness, so I could be cured of them and go on free of them-- the people who came into my life from that time, EVERY ONE OF THEM WHO WAS CURIOUS, WITHIN WEEKS, COULD HEAR THE SAME BEINGS i WAS HEARING. COULD REPEAT WHAT THEY HEARD THEM SAY, IDENTICAL TO WHAT I COULD HEAR THEM SAY. COULD CONFIRM BY DESCRIPTION WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE, WHAT THEY DID, WHAT SETTING THEY SAW THEM IN, COULD TELL OF THEIR OWN PERCEPTION, APART FROM MINE. this is not schizophrenia. this does not match any known case history. schizophrenics get compelling commands from their voices. they get maddening accusations, tormenting directives to do things, say things. I got no such thing from the beings who addressed us. not me. us. 'us' includes a young man in college, an old man retired from the CIA, a gay friend who was skeptical, an ex boyfriend who didnt believe me at all until he called me one night in shame and told me he had just had a visitation from one of my 'entities' and wished to apologize to me for having spoken to me in such cruel terms about it previously, included a woman who had known one of the persons while they were alive, and went from casually greeting me and inviting me in, to instant tears when i went to meet her, and she recognized her old friend's presence, accompanying me into the room, unspoken. I went to see her, to find out if this 'visitor was who they purported to be. She knew him personally when he was alive, I did not. So that was another test I wanted to put this to. And it passed. I am not interested in convincing you, or Jim, or anyone else, about these experiences. They happened to me, and to my associates. I was well aware i sounded like i was out of my right mind when all this was happening to me, daily, and I prefaced everything I said with that, to let others know how aware I was. But neither could i deny it was happening, and not just to me. or for me. I did everything I could think of to prove to myself and others that it wasn't true, and it just kept on coming. To me, and to the others. My son's schizophrenia does not work like this. he is incomprehensible to other people. he cannot make himself understood while at the same time, he thinks everyone else understands him as clear as a bell. There is no one who can second or confirm what he hears or feels, in his hallucinations. if you would like, I can bring you a sample of his typical state of mind and his writing/speech, for illustration. you will see the shocking constrast, between what Jim, here, thinks is me, talking crazy, and someone who really is. I think you may have a whole new respect for me, after you read my son's writings. He is schizophrenic. I was not. He is ill. I was not. He is alone inside his world. I was not. He can't turn his off, or tune it out, at will. Mine, I can. so i am not interested in 'proving' my experience to anyone. I am open to telling about it. I am open to comparing notes with others who have had something similar happen. I will speak honestly and as truthfully as I can from how it happened to me. But i am not interested in being used by someone else, for the purpose of aggrandizing themselves on false premises. If these things could happen to me, could come to me, they could happen to anyone. They have happened to others before me, and since. I am honest about what I have seen, and what i have not. When others speak of things they have seen that I have not, I listen. I ask questions. or I remain silent and just let them speak as they will. I don't jump in and make an ignorant sport of trying to rip them down for the simple fact that they have seen something that I haven't. I only speak to what I know. I have the good sense to know what i know, and know what i don't know, and to stay within my own truth. I have the good sense to know what I am ignorant about. And I do not 'believe in' something, just because someone else says they know it. I still remain within what I know, for myself and no more. Not until I know more, and know enough to speak from my own experience. I told you: I don't know what Faith is. I don't know how to take something 'on faith'. the phrase has no meaning to me. I have to see it for myself before I know what it is. If i haven't seen it for myself, I don't know what it is, and I KNOW don't know what it is. You really ought to read what being in my son's head is like. Jim, you would never mock me again.

Subject: There are many shades of delusion From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:04:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First, Janet, you start by saying you're not interested in trying to convince anyone of anything but then the rest of your post is an urgent attempt to do just that. Yes, Janet, your son sounds like he's pretty out there. No question about that. And you generally don't sound that way at all. But that's not to say that you weren't labouring under some delusion of sorts when you had the experiences you describe. As for your 'witnesses'? Beats me. Bring them forward, one by one, and let's see what they have to say. There have been many, many cases of people supporting other peoples' delusions -- or even sharing them -- for one reason or another. If I was content with your level of offered proof, I might as well be a mormon. After all, didn't Joseph Smith have a handful of 'witnesses' too?

Subject: here-read this -true schizophrenia From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is a look inside my son's head. this is what trying to listen to a true schizophrenic is. this is not remotely like what my experience was. 'hey poppa, yes i got the pak today, i also, on my way to the gym, got a pak from Ford, inside i discovered a leaping long haired gnome covered in goop the color of which i couldn't pronounce soon i melted away into a breezy forrest grove was covered in tastfully sofeted indirect sunshine complete with long 75 cent words that i didn't have time or ablilaty for , prononciation wasn't even in the cards so i mouthed the secret prayer of the Tibetan book of the dead much of it rhymed with orange, when suddenly a pshco-delic kalidoscopic array, a whole slew, a vast plethora of 99 rainbow balloons consumed us (u were there, Quincie too,) and then... out of the blew , blue a Cajun wind varrying at precisely approximatly 42 cps(cajuns per squadron) these Creol chefs began to dizzy us w/ know how throwing CauTION to the wind u guessed it red hot chili peppers abounding, stone cold soup surrounding gourmet cuisine of the utmost terrificalness music by the COPAHUERA TWINS encompassing kisses from Quincie to me to u to Sarah to Stevei(a) Wonder to Ichabod Crane and back again words oh words we SAIL upon Ruthie sang then Gramadge(a word meaning a BADGE of HONOR for Gramparents) strolled in , pleasantly engaged in each other's eyes when they cought the aroma of the southern fried roast baked stewed simmered toasted soufleted AND! fricaseed(fric-uh-see-ed) what were we talkin' 'bout again oh yaeh, the Cajun Casserole w/ the Latin yAEh!!! finding our selves satiated (the word du jour) and not being able to talk atoll Atoll (swahili for greetings to all Tripping Gnomes of the woode variety whose eyes tell of yonder feilds of glory)   ... we reached for our favourite pak o' smokes pulled out a fine smelling Pual Dergabeard whose aroma was so enticing we eagerly suffused our wholesmeness w/ energetic gravy thrice   descended from Nanook of the Inuit persuasion - of the far North!!...upon inhalation of the sacred herb 'eeeeeeeee' screamed a Forrest Banshee running Pall Mall thru our midst as we chuckled unified annoyance agreeing as Holy Joshua had proclaimed eons ago on the Dionysion plains of Mother AFROca; echoing Genius Gina, 'Phishy Fishy Phish!' the universal creed of all those who, if they do say so themselves, believe that communal PRAYER will allieviate the slovenly confused ones of their propagandanistic ego , ergo our banshee amigo was transformed into a Cosmic Dragon of the Celtic order beyond the material world ...but not too much because, Dear Father, i awoke to find myself in the company of a prince in a cat's body, discovered that the packet of materialistic ford materials told of Part Two: of Wesly and , get this now, his non-fossil fueled Ford Focus equpped w/ a hydogen ion membrane engine designed to carry 14 passengers (i wish) the highlight of the dream was one fellow who told of total enlightenment thru New England real estate right Ren? affirmative'

Subject: That, my dear Janet, is pure bullshit From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:52:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just what I expected though.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:00:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Zelda, Yes it IS too bad and what, if anything Gerry's doing about it (Jerry's someone else altogether), is something I'll leave to him to discuss if and how he wants. It's disgusting, in fact. But then this is a cult we're talking about. They probably read up on what cults are supposed to do to harrass their critics. Maybe something in Cult Leaders Magazine. Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. What is that supposed to mean? How does 'objectivity' translate into non-involvement? And this is an open discussion board for anyone. What's wrong with 'chiming in' anyways? And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. Again, I'd ask you to explain yourself. What do you mean by 'annihiliate'? I don't recall seeing anyone tell anyone else here not to discuss spirituality. What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined. But 'annihilate'? And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. What the hell??????? Zelda, speak to me! What is this? Why should anyone stay out of any conversations here? AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. I don't know what you mean by 'dissassemble' but what you're asking for is just what Pat's talking about and what RE is apparently (if you can get in and if you can stomach the extreme secrecy). Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. Well, they're all legitimate topics. Spirituality's a valid topic just as much as astrology, etc. Why wouldn't it be? I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Yes, and again, I want to thank you for being a voice of fair, reason in an environment that seems to offer one thing particularly to its visitors and that's the lack of any pressure to be accountable for anything. You were great in that initial challenge to Salam. Good for you standing up to such an ornery piece of work when he's surrounded by his harpies. And yes, I've felt just the same way about some other specific lies these guys are bandying about. Deb claims she never threatened Pat and that I'm lying when I say she did. That's a bald-faced lie. She threatened him so intensely and, like I say, I've got two witnesses, one of whom heard the whole thing, they were that close to the phone. The other just hear my end of the heated discussion where I had to literally scream at her to retract it or else I would be compelled to do something about it. Yet she goes on and on about how 'insanely deluded' I am. Yeah, right! The other is her recent claim that she has 'posts and emails' that prove that the 'inner circle' of exes (whoever that may be) don't want any media attention at all for fear of accusations of libel. That, too, is a lie. Deb is too cowardly to talk with me directly. Maybe she's afraid of that secret brain re-programming we do or something but I did get a chance to ask her to join me on Symp before Dave blocked me again. But no tribunal is going to happen because, for one thing, these guys aren't sincere. They don't really believe what they're saying. That 'playing around' you're talking about encompasses their attacks on the forum too, if you can believe it. Feel free to delete this if it is too messy for now.... Zelda Zelda, honey, you know I wouuld if I could but I'm not an FA here so you'll just have to ask Pat or Gerry. :)

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 20:24:02 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Wow . Too bad Jerry has to put up with that . Cant he do some computer stuff to find out who is doing it? Zelda, ***** It sounds like you think it may be premies. I dont think so. The recent Pink thing was the work of ex exs- (i will bet a trillion dollars) so it follows that the trouble Gerry is having could be their doing as well. Anyway I understand I think... I dont know what was so insulting to the exs. It was critical but not insulting.I just said they on the whole are not objective enough to allow discussions about spritual subjects to happen- without chiming in. What is that supposed to mean? How does 'objectivity' translate into non-involvement? And this is an open discussion board for anyone. What's wrong with 'chiming in' anyways? ****What I mean is that outspoken exs here can be Biased against the whole idea of spiritual . Therefore they are compelled to jump in - (interrupt) if a conversation is taking place. By Objective I mean the knack of watching a conversation that is goes against a held belief -and being able to refrain from voicing an opinion so the conversation can take place --- as a common courtesy. That is slightly different than 'Objectivity' . *******Nothing is wrong with chiming in - if you have been invited to particitpate in a discussion. I am sure you can relate to a hypothetical situation. IE- You are having a conversation that seems to be going somewhere that You and the other person like and whammo- from the left comes a post from some ninkumpoop who wants their opinion aired. For example- I was reading your discussions with Isabella and they were good- you were on a wavelength and actually engaged in dialogue and it faltered when the interjections became too rude to ignore. *****So If an ex exploits the fact that this is an open discussion for anyone- then that in practice means that ex can Stop conversation by continual intervention. It amounts to non-tolerance. Face it Jim- there is a attitude of non tolerance here re spirtual stuff. How that feels. And that in the past the guys on patrol considered it their job to annialate any discussions about newage/ sprit ect....And that has been a weakness on the forum And that I thought that Ex premie has become to be associated with EXSpirtual Ex premeis. Again, I'd ask you to explain yourself. What do you mean by 'annihiliate'? I don't recall seeing anyone tell anyone else here not to discuss spirituality. What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined. But 'annihilate'? ********So who puts out the warning??? Where is it.?? And if it is there for all to read- what place does it have on an Expremie forum?? ****What do you mean by your ''What I have seen are lots of questions and criticisms levied at spiritual beliefs. I've also seen people warned not to trot any belief out here that they don't want to risk seeing well-examined.'' Dont you think that is a bit clique-ish?? ******And by Annialate I mean stop discussion by interupting or tripping up a conversation about beliefs by artfully place converstion stoppers in the form of challenges. Dont you see that what you are saying implies that there is a status quo - or set of rules that must be abided by. No - it may not be a command not to talk of spirtuality- but Beware anybody who wants to try. This exclusive attitude- makes it seem that there is a accepted form of behaviour or dogma that is an unwritten part of being an expremie. ITs how it FEELS and it is a legitimate complaint. And that Exs in General - (and I mean all exs not just F7 loyalist) dont know how to stay out of such conversations when they dont agree with the content. What the hell??????? Zelda, speak to me! What is this? Why should anyone stay out of any conversations here? *******Ho . JIM. That is just it. I think that people should stay out of conversations here and allow OTHERS to talk . ******It really boils down to this: What is the Purpose of the Forum? Is it to escort/relate to exiting /fenceline /new premies so they can free themselves from the grasp of the cult? If that is so then it takes all kinds of escorts because premies exit the cult by many different doorways. If all kinds of escorts are not encouraged then it would appear there is an Accepted way of exiting . Any other gets flack. *******Or is the purpose to make sure that they and exs dont get the opportunity to discuss spiritual needs with like minded people? Cant you see that is exclusive in practice? AND that I thought it may work to have 2 new forums 1- for discussion amoungst people who agree about the existance/need for spiritual / self developement and want to have conversations. and 2 - another forum for DEBATE about the topics. Ie- whether god ixist and whether aromatherapy really works and if astrology is a science or bunk That way the people that want to discuss and SHARE about their expereinces can do so in peace and those that want to Dissassemble can do so unfettered. I don't know what you mean by 'dissassemble' but what you're asking for is just what Pat's talking about and what RE is apparently (if you can get in and if you can stomach the extreme secrecy). *** RIght . That is why I posted my post. To point out the shortcomings of F7 ( the lack of tolerance) and BTW to ask 'What is the purpose of the Forum' ***** by dissasemble I mean weaken the flow of a conversation until it falls apart- by interruptioning Oh ya- and I said I dont think it is a good thing to discuss spiritual experience wholesale and I would rather talk about astrrology and or wierd healing practices. Well, they're all legitimate topics. Spirituality's a valid topic just as much as astrology, etc. Why wouldn't it be? **** Give me a break. When was the last time any of those topics were allowed on the forum, with all the touchy feelly new age assumptions ect ect - In Peace --without interference? I said something else real important but I cant remember what it was...... Oh right I said the AG posters want to play and were not interested in resolving anything.now . And that the only way I could see to resolve all the garbage was to have a facilitator and allow evidence to be brought forward so that people could admit failings, mistakes ect. But for that to work both parties would need to interested in resolution and it doesnt appear that XYZ from AG are interested at all cause they would rather play and are getting milage out ot the 'opposing forums/anti-ex ' thing- which they now say is 'beneath them.' Which I find interesting because it would have been so easy for Salam to prove his accusations. The fact that he didnt bother proving them tells me that he is more interested in raising dust than actual facts. He enjoys getting people worked up and calling people names. He is useless at resolution becaue he wants to be useless at it. And he thinks that is funny. Yes, and again, I want to thank you for being a voice of fair, reason in an environment that seems to offer one thing particularly to its visitors and that's the lack of any pressure to be accountable for anything. You were great in that initial challenge to Salam. Good for you standing up to such an ornery piece of work when he's surrounded by his harpies. And yes, I've felt just the same way about some other specific lies these guys are bandying about. Deb claims she never threatened Pat and that I'm lying when I say she did. That's a bald-faced lie. She threatened him so intensely and, like I say, I've got two witnesses, one of whom heard the whole thing, they were that close to the phone. The other just hear my end of the heated discussion where I had to literally scream at her to retract it or else I would be compelled to do something about it. Yet she goes on and on about how 'insanely deluded' I am. Yeah, right! The other is her recent claim that she has 'posts and emails' that prove that the 'inner circle' of exes (whoever that may be) don't want any media attention at all for fear of accusations of libel. That, too, is a lie. Deb is too cowardly to talk with me directly. Maybe she's afraid of that secret brain re-programming we do or something but I did get a chance to ask her to join me on Symp before Dave blocked me again. But no tribunal is going to happen because, for one thing, these guys aren't sincere. They don't really believe what they're saying. That 'playing around' you're talking about encompasses their attacks on the forum too, if you can believe it. *** Well this is one topic we agree on. I too think Salam owes an explanation re this Deb debacle . I have learned however, that Salam makes things up in order to get a rise out of people. I am not sure who is claiming they have emails- but if it is Salam then dont hold your breath. BTW - the only reason I felt I could take on Salam is because basically I trust him. Half the stuff he says and does is to defend who he percieves as the underdog- and oh yes some Jewish thing. He is predictable in that he thinks he is a dirty fighter but he shows his desparation eventually and contradicts himself. PS- Now that you have read all that I want to say that the upper part of my post is something I have recognized for a long time. So lots of it is colored by festering opinion. However, I do think that the recent months have changed the tone of the ex scene and F7 has become a more user friendly place. I think it has happened because the Cult ittself has changed in that there is no denying much of what is on ExOrg. So there is not an urgency about PROVING we are right. I must also say that you are largley responsible for the change in atmosphere and I really respect the way you handle people these days. You dont seem as hot headed as in the past. Now if only you and your goons would back off and allow astrology talk and aromotherpay reciepes the world will be a better place. And oh ya- some meditation and God talk would be nice. Zelda the Libra

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:05:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Zelda, Thanks for your long reply. I've just got a few substantive points to make in response but first, one procedural. You know, last time it was the spelling of Gerry's and Jerry's names. This time it's HTML. Zelda, I'm no pro by any means whatsoever but the italicizing, underlining or emboldening commands are a snap. There's really nothing to them and they may a world of difference in making posts legible if you're quoting someone. Do you know them? Anyway, I think that where you and I disagree most is over the issue of when one's 'trespassing' by joining a thread. I think it's all fair game in an open forum like this. I expect both primary AND collateral comments or questions to anything I say and I think others should too. The moment you want it private, get a room. :) No, seriously, the moment you want it private, take it to email. Otherwise, that's just the nature of a forum. Frankly, I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Half the fun and/or interest in posting is never knowing what kind of collateral question or comment's coming next. And Zelda, you ain't never going to get any no-comment buffer zone around subjects like astrology. Why? Because people like me just looooooooove to rip into it! I do that in life in general. If someone tells me that they're into astrology (thankfully, fewer people like that all the time, at least in my world), like someone did at this party I went to last week, you bet I'm going to get into it with them. Hell, Zelda, it's fun ... AND I wish someone had done that with me years ago too. I make no apologies for trying to disillusion someone about astrology just like I would make none about trying to disillusion someone about Maharaji. Don't know why, lots of reasons, I'm sure, but that's just me, I've searched my conscience on this many a time and feel good, not bad, proud, not shameful, for the effort. Perhaps if you can tell me why I shouldn't feel that way, I'd change my mind but, for now, I think it's a good thing. Thanks, though, for your compliment. I try not to swear at people anymore but, beside that, I think I pretty well say the same stuff as always. But yes, the forum's great right now. Several great former regulars aren't around now but even they pop in once in a while and that's always good. As for the current regulars, there are so many good, clear voices, it's truly a pleasure to read here. The AG crowd lost their bearings, in my opinion. Oh well, the hard work for them's already done. They're OUT of the cult and they can turn their back on the good work done here all they like. But I know. I was around when Selene first showed up. I know how much she leaned on all of us to get her through the transition. And same for Deb whose first posts were about how much of a basket case she was wandering the streets of Victoria crying uncontrollably, unable to function, so shocked was she to learn that Maharaji wasn't what she'd thought he was. And Salam as well benefitted immeasurably from the work and interaction with the online exes. So they can do and say what they want. Salam can put up as many stupid web sites as he likes. They don't fool anyone with half a brain. And thank you once again for standing up for truth and decency in those arguments.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:38:53 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Yes I know how to use HTML but I cant find it as an option when I am on the forums. I will look again. Yes we disagree on stuff and it is too late for me to go into it again. Suffice to say it has to do with freedom of expression ... . And I love party battles about astrology cause it is so easy to illustrate.. And whose to say YOu shouldnt get a room if you want to complain???? HMMM? Just want to say that one of the saddest things for me in the past week or so was to see you and Dave fall out. I get the impression he was really trying to find a way to get some peace established and unfortunately debunked your long association with each other. I dont think this was his intention. One thing to his credit- he has made a clear statement that gay and racial bashing wont be tolerated on AG. That Means that quite a few of his regulars are not getting what they want. I read your long post to him and it made me misty . There is so much history there. Z.

Subject: Re: Here's what happened From: gerry To: Zelda Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, the AG stuff, that's REAL important. I actually thought you wanted to bitch and moan about exes or the forum (silly me!) and there's plenty of that over on AG. And I spell my name with a g. 'Jerry' who posts here occasionally lives back east. I live in McCleary Washington. And you have an amazing memory! You remembered your post almost word for word. Almost as if you cut and pasted it! Too bad Jim's memory wasn't as good! But no, I can't just "do some computer stuff" to find out who is calling me. Do you actually think these people would be brazenly harrassing me if there were any chance the fucking cowards would be caught??? gerry--F7 loyalist and guerilla on patrol

Subject: Thanks, a few corrections From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The calls are not 24/7 but they have been going on for three days, not two days. I'll get a spate of calls spaced fifteen or so minutes apart, same thing every time. The frequency is increasing. And I'm not sure that I DIDN'T give Carlos my phone number because I very well may have given Carlos my number. I'm not blaming anyone as I can't prove a thing about who it is, but I have reported it. Jim had to ring off suddenly as he got another call so we didn't go over the details.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Mike Finch To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:20:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat This is very interesting. If you had asked this same question any time over the last 15 months say, since I first posted here, then I would have answered 'Yes, we need a softer, gentler spiritual Forum'. I felt that F7 and its ancestors were throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and that rejection of M and Knowledge should not mean automatic rejection of other forms of meditation and inner searching. But I feel differently now. Although I am practising a form of meditation (very different from Knowledge, of course), and in fact for me it is an important practise, I don't want another Forum to discuss it. I agree with many posts on this thread, that the beauty about this Forum is its openness, and as long as trolls and people who deliberately disrupt are kept out, anything relevant to M and Knowledge should be up for discussion. Although I have not posted here for a while, I am quite comfortable to post about my current meditation practise, and the assumptions behind the practise, and I don't think I would really care any more if any regular posters here did not like that. In fact, I would welcome constructive criticism of anything I say - 'constructive' of course being the operative word. So here I am, having wanted a 'spiritual' Forum for some time, now it is being offered I am saying I don't think it is a good idea ! In any case, too many forums dilute, and I think this F7 should remain focused and concentrated on Maharaji and Knowledge (sorry, Prem Rawat and Self-Knowledge), and issues arising therefrom, and to the extent that my current 'spiritual' practise is relevant to that, I will post, if ever I do again, here. -- Mike

Subject: I remember, Mike From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:43:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you first arrived you politely suggested more civility. At the time I agreed with you on the ''civility'' thingy but not on the cause of the incivility. I've always felt that that was a result of exes being so loathe to censor anyone that they tolerated the cult disruptors who created an atmosphere of fear and confusion. The exes reacted by being defensive and nasty and it permeated nearly all other conversations here. So I set out to make it my job to see that the premie disruptors were not tolerated. I've also talked to you privately about ''spiritual'' stuff and pretty much know where you stand on it. Like you, if I post about my meditation here, I expect to be questioned, criticised and analysed. I welcome that but many don't which is why I am offering a spiritual forum.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 08:54:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, Atheists are okay in my book. IMO they would be able to really experience meditation in the way that I define it, an experience of emptiness, meaninglessness, and spaciousness. An atheist wouldn’t have any spiritual concepts blocking or cluttering the experience and ironically would be closer to a Theravadan Buddhist. Meditation in the sense I define it is like having two mirrors facing each other with nothing in between. Concepts get in the way of meditation and an atheist has an advantage in the sense that they are carrying less baggage. It’s just that conflict between Jim and I - and even you on occasion -became rather tiresome. Jim thinks that something is better than nothing; and I think nothing is better than something. That’s a pretty fundamental disagreement. Jim loves to cling to his memories and I see clinging to memories (at least all the time) as an obstacle. I think that Sir Dave is right in that there has been a fundamental shift in the ex mindset. As for Mr. Rawat, the cat is already out of the bag, and there is really nothing more to prove. The truth is out and we can choose to follow him or not. When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality. I would just like to see exes continue on the spiritual path as well as the intellectual path. They were originally attracted to K for some reason. Did you ever have a political argument with someone that went nowhere no matter how long you argued? And then it became tedious. In summary, I didn’t really feel that my contributions were being appreciated or valued here. It’s a tough crowd, you gotta admit, so it took it elsewhere. No big deal! =)

Subject: Brilliant Dep - Thanks! From: Christina To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:37:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation is like having two mirrors facing each other with nothing in between.

Subject: Brilliant like a pretty fog, you mean From: Jim To: Christina Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:12:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That sentence sure sounds nice. But does it mean anything? No and that's part of its appeal.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Anandaji To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:08:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mostly post on the Recent Ex-premie forum. I enjoy this forum as well, but there I feel a bit more comfortable being 'vulnerable' if you will over there. For new arrivals (now six months for me), the Recent forum is a good place. I never heard it described as a 'spiritual' forum, though. But there is more discussion of what people are doing to fill the void there. I love this forum, but there are times when it feels a bit like walking into a pub and asking for milk. Please understand, though, I wouldn't ask for anyone here to change a thing. I still come here regularly, mostly seeking cult updates. Over and out. May the good Lord bless and keep you. Jai Sat chit Ananda. BoleashrisatgurudevmaharajkeeJAY! Remember, peace on earth begins within you. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Eat shit, dump it in the garden; beautiful flowers will grow. Oh, this experience is so beautiful. Burp.

Subject: You are suffering from a major mental disconnect From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No other way to say it, Dog. You've got a serious problem with respect to the many issues we talk about here and unless you're willing to talk about them fairly and openly, you're in no shape for the forum. Yeah, that's right. I think you're not up to it. Let me put it this way. In this very post of yours you've said things that are big conversation stoppers / starters (stoppers in the sense that they obscure the original issue and starters in the sense that they most certainly invite fresh scrutiny and consideration.) But you are in no shape to actually have those discussions. Why? Well, as you've said, you're not a 'prickly' person, you're 'gooey'. Discussions, Dog, if they're real discussions, where various opinions are weighed, sifted through and considered this way and that, are, by definition, 'prickly' using your terminology. If you're not amenable to the climate, you should move. Especially when it's a group activity as your 'gooeyness' here (ie your refusal to discuss things rationally) is frustrating to anyone who hopes to engage you rationally and disrespectful to the forum generally.

Subject: You are suffering from a major mental entanglement [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:00:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The first post of yours I could read From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:56:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with some interest, and in case that sounds like some withering put down to someone, it's just meant as a straight statement of fact. No vaslue judgements ok, yeah, dep, believe it or not? But one thought does spring to mind, to quote you, 'When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality.'. Does this mean that on issues like racism, which is on the rise here in europe at the mo, albeit of a more subtle variety, that the only way to affect it is by ignoring it, care to expand?

Subject: Re: The first post of yours I could read From: Dep To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 19:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with some interest, and in case that sounds like some withering put down to someone, it's just meant as a straight statement of fact. No vaslue judgements ok, yeah, dep, believe it or not? But one thought does spring to mind, to quote you, 'When you struggle against something you reinforce its reality.'. Does this mean that on issues like racism, which is on the rise here in europe at the mo, albeit of a more subtle variety, that the only way to affect it is by ignoring it, care to expand? --- Hamzen, How many wars to end war have we fought? Yin and Yang, you push me me and I push back. Peace comes from people who are at peace. And how to people become peaceful?

Subject: The Fine Line... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:15:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, There's a very thin line between continuing to practice Knowledge meditation as we knew it in the cult and going through the exiting process then choosing a new spiritual path. It's inevitable that some of us will become atheists, agnostics, decide to follow a mainstream religion, something else altogether, or just nothing. Doing nothing about one's spirituality is okay too. Whatever makes me happy for myself. I think once a premie feels fairly relieved of the programming mechanisms which Maharaji placed in our lives to make the Knowledge meditation a connection to him with Maharaji as the 'proprietor' of that meditation, with all the trappings and obligations that go with that proprietorship, I really don't think it's my business to try to sway someone to not explore meditation. Each of us as individuals brings something different here based upon not only our cult experience but how we live our lives and how our lives have affected the way we view the world now. You have a history that's quite different than mine, i.e., I started posting here after I realized I was an ex-premie (with many bumpy starts and stops). You started posting here as a premie. It doesn't make you bad or me good. It's just a matter of where we started out. Btw, I never followed your and Jim's arguments much because I felt it was between the two of you as individuals, not representative of the entire posting presence on any of these Forums. I have also come to believe that using any meditation right after exiting a meditation/personality cult is not good for one's emotional and mental well-being. I've done a lot of reading on this topic. There is a state within the meditation, whether taught by Maharaji, or Krishna people, or Moon, or anybody who places a hold on one's freedom of thought which I believe keeps exiting premies in a state of confusion. That's my opinion. It doesn't mean everyone has to listen to me or obey me. It's enough we obeyed a guru for x amount of years. I wonder where freedom of thought ended upon entering Maharaji's cult. I also wonder and try to examine in myself where freedom of religion ended too. There was and is a point in that cult when thinking is forbidden and questioning the guru is off limits. There's the fine line. I have come to realize that there was a point in my life that I ignored everything negative about Maharaji I ever saw in person or heard about him because of the contant obligation to surrender myselft to him and his mindf**k. I heard so many stories about Farkiranand and what he did and as recently as 1997 premies were still laughing about ''oh, they got him out of the country fast!'' You see, I think that's the result of mind control. Never question anything about him. There was much controversy about Ted Patrick and his methods--I knew one person whose parents arranged to be kidnapped by Patrick a long time ago in Connecticut. She came back once, then they gave it a second try and we never heard from her again. I don't agree with a lot of what Patrick did when he was deprogramming people from cults, i.e. kidnapping, but I don't completely discount it either. There were many other deprogramming groups that cropped up as a result of Patrick's efforts and they were flailing around and injured people by not having the correct information and tools to be deprogamming cult members. So deprogramming has now become synonymous with Ted Patrick with a very negative slant. Now the deprogramming is referred to as exit counseling. But I have read a lot about this and re-entering the real world and meditating on guru techniques is not healthy at least not in the beginning. That's MY opinion and what has worked for me. From everything I've read about the after-affects of being in a guru worshipping meditation cult, the advice is to try to stimulate one's mind, not continue to block it out by meditation. I think that to use meditation as a means of healing from a meditation cult is counter-productive to understanding where one starts and where the cults begins. It actually is a contradiction. But everyone, again, has the individual choice as to how they are going to do it. I think the reason Jim is so often called a bully is because he has been doing this forum for so long he automatically sees the flaws in someone's thinking process and calls them on it bluntly. It may not be in the manner that someone likes, but I do understand where he's going when he confronts someone about a belief system. Sometimes I think he's too harsh, sometimes I think a person is being too sensitive. Those are the limitations of looking at a computer monitor. To lay the inadequacies of this forum on two or three people is wrong. Many of us contribute to negativity here because negativity is naturally contagious despite the cult. Fights break out but as I have come to know people here I've learned to understand that written words on a screen are a far cry from normal communication. Not being able to look at someone's face, eyes, listen to the intonation of their voice is what limits us in this format. I don't think there should be another forum I think we need to try to work out relationships between eachother here. Or simply agree to disagree. Sarcasm is also another thing I have personally been working on. Its root is from Greek which means the 'tearing or ripping of flesh.' I chuckle when I say this, because I can be very sarcastic and that sarcasm can be just as painful as telling someone bluntly they are missing the point. None of us is perfect. Learning that is also part of leaving Maharaji behind because of his demand that we reach perfection. I think I could have just said we all need more tolerance for eachother and saved myself writing all this, but I've been observing factions and alliances going to extremes and at the center of it all is not spirituality per se, but how we treat others as a humans. We all have vulnerabilities and I want to respect that. I want to progress not digress. I think the disputes happen when the name calling starts, we misconstrue the meaning of a post, and all hell breaks loose. One of the things about me and meditation is that I don't have a problem with anyone practicing a meditation. For me, however, it's been difficult to divorce myself from the connection of meditation (of any kind) to Maharji and the the belief systems in which I became engrained. I think practicing tolerance and learning that I can't make someone change and be how I want them to be is the key to improving this forum Best, Cynthia

Subject: Very astute, Cynthia!! (nt) From: Gregg To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:24:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Another BEST! Whole thread BEST OF? [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:00:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: As long as you're happy, Dep. :P From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:52:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still think your posts on AG and LG are going to be lost in space. Would you like a spiritual forum? Would you like to be FA? Have you ever tried to get into Recent Exes? I've never really made it clear to you that I have no problem with your meditating. Hey I do it! What I have a problem with is your cliches. For instance you posted this on AG: Freedom is a state much prized within the realm of civilized society. It is a bond wherewith the savage man may charm the outward hatchments of his soul, and soothe the troubled breast into a magnitude of quiet. It is most precious as a blessed balm, the saviour of princes, the harbinger of happiness, yea, the very stuff and pith of all we hold most dear. What frees the prisoner in his lonely cell, chained within the bondage of rude walls, far from the owl of Thebes? What fires and stirs the woodcock in his spring, or wakes the drowsy apricot betides? What goddess does the storm tossed mariner offer her most tempestuous prayers to? Freedom! Freedom! FREEDOM! Now, to me, that is - well nonsense - er, well maybe it's poetry (''drowsy apricots?'') It sounds like a stoned pot-smoker philosophising to me. Is it a joke? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? :C)

Subject: Re: As long as you're happy, Dep. :P From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:03:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still think your posts on AG and LG are going to be lost in space. Would you like a spiritual forum? Would you like to be FA? Have you ever tried to get into Recent Exes? I've never really made it clear to you that I have no problem with your meditating. Hey I do it! What I have a problem with is your cliches. For instance you posted this on AG: Freedom is a state much prized within the realm of civilized society. It is a bond wherewith the savage man may charm the outward hatchments of his soul, and soothe the troubled breast into a magnitude of quiet. It is most precious as a blessed balm, the saviour of princes, the harbinger of happiness, yea, the very stuff and pith of all we hold most dear. What frees the prisoner in his lonely cell, chained within the bondage of rude walls, far from the owl of Thebes? What fires and stirs the woodcock in his spring, or wakes the drowsy apricot betides? What goddess does the storm tossed mariner offer her most tempestuous prayers to? Freedom! Freedom! FREEDOM! Now, to me, that is - well nonsense - er, well maybe it's poetry (''drowsy apricots?'') It sounds like a stoned pot-smoker philosophising to me. Is it a joke? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? :C) --- PatC, That bit is from Monty Python and was written by Eric Idle. It is absolutely hilarious gibberish! The same show includes the Cardinal Richelieu sketch, Inspector Dim of the Yard, and information on how to recognize different types of trees from quite a long way away. No I would not like a spiritual forum. I would not like to be FA. I have never tried to get into Recent Exes. Thanks for asking though PatC. =)=)=)=)=)

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? YES From: janet To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:34:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when I first saw thsi topic begin, I had hoped to see more substantive and affirmative resposes than I see below. I would say that yes, this forum definitely is anti spiritual and hostile towards anyone who comes here and wants to speak of their actual experiences or convictions or real life encounters with that side of life. I for one have resented the hell out of the crass reception I have met with, when I have lobbed my own life experience into the discussion. i never brought up such topics carelessly. yes, pat, I do think such a forum as you stipulate would be a good thing to have. i asked to join RE and was met with a chilling reaction like unto the shrinking away from a mental patient. it galled. i had emotional issues and personal issues I needed to talk out, and was denied. i think i have proven these last two years that I can hold my own in various arenas with various ground rules. i can add my voice here as well as over at the symposium and jump into the nuttiness at AG as well. I made my appearances at LG, for that matter, what with carlos and that whole chapter. but i have noplace to voice my valid spiritual side, and its getting old. i can speak of it in my favored chat room, but i can't work out my cult issues there. and im gettin real tired of holding it in over here. some of us have had experiences, encounters, chapters in our lives, that deserve a valid arena in which to speak and tell of our history in the spiritual realms. bobby manrodt wouldnt recant any of his, despite any amount of pressure from this forum's self styled 'bullies'. anyone who has gone thru a near death experience and lived again, likewise. there is a dimension to living and dying that no amount of intellectual rationality can reach when it happens to a person, and i get damned weary of putting up with people who think they know it all, swaggering around and cutting down the rest of us who may have lived thru something quite different. so, yes, if you are going to be so thoughtful as to make a place for those of us who would embrace a place where we cant speak openly about what we have lived, in this, I would be there at once. what i witnessed at my mothers deathbed is not fodder for some asshole to get up and shit on, to ridicule me and aggrandize themselves, by. and i hope my sharp words ring out and bring out all the others here who would like a similar forum in which to speak honestly and without an agenda about their/our understandings in this meaningful subject. i say YES. open such a forum. and thank you for articulating the case so well. you got it exactly right.

Subject: Don't blame the questions, Janet From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:56:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, You have made some extraordinary claims here regarding various spiritual visitations, etc. and you've also clearly stated that they're not negotiable as far as you're concerned. That is, when you say so-and-so appeared before you (can't recall who exactly but you've cited a few of these 'experiences'), you've just ignored any questions or challenges regarding your interpretation of these impressions. Well that doesn't cut it on a discussion board, Janet. It just doesn't. Those are important and controversial claims on your part and yes, many of us here are skeptical, to say the least. I guess you could enjoy another forum where you talked about these fantastic moments knowing that no one will raise an eyebrow. Too bad you didn't get into Recent Exes. Perhaps you should re-apply. Maybe they'll reconsider.

Subject: So, you wanna be FA? From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:00:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a similar problem with you as I do with Dep although you are a far more entertaining and original writer. It's the stoned trippy stuff that get's to me but maybe you guys do need a trippy forum to talk about your spiritual stuff. Would you help administer it? Also - there is the matter of money. I won't pay for it and it would have to be financed by the spiritual exes. But, I hear you loud and clear. There are certain delicate subjects that get trampled on here. I guess I'm just not a very delicate flower.

Subject: Re: delicate subjects that get trampled on here From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:55:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never noticed that Pat ,I was pretty sensitive when I started posting here; said a few wobbly / new agey thngs but was only met with kindness and understanding...and have felt totally supported in a way I never expected. Sure I went thru' guilt and paranoia too, but there's a helluva lot to work thru'. RE sounds like a bit of a club , who's running it?

Subject: Criteria for Recent Exes Forum? From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:22:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I do appreciate your feeling of rejection upon being denied access to the RE forum. One of the issues that has always bothered me about that forum is the secrecy surrounding it. Secrecy is one of the elements of being in a cult which prevents members from leaving. While I understand some folks may need confidentiality, I do not understand the great need for so much secrecy. What the hell is the purpose of that forum and how can anyone who is not involved make an accessment about whether or not to even request admittance? This is weird. It seems to me that if there already is a forum, the RE, what is the need for a new one? I now question the criteria for being accepted to that group of posters. I had no idea you were rejected from RE. I think that is terrible. You said: i asked to join RE and was met with a chilling reaction like unto the shrinking away from a mental patient. it galled. i had emotional issues and personal issues I needed to talk out, and was denied. This is unacceptable in my view and downright wrong. Who is screening exes for this forum? Who is the person responsible for making judgments about who will fit or not fit in at RE? This is disturbing news. Steve Q. was also denied entrance into that forum and I was not happy to learn about that when it came up here. No one should be rejected based on information regarding someone's emotional or mental illness. That's discrimination IMO. I though the whole point of RE was to help any ex-premie with personal and/or private emotional and spiritual issues in order to help exit the cult and resolve internal conflicts surrounding the spiritual abuse! I don't understand the need for so much confidentiality. That RE is a passworded forum is fine, but to be screening people without any real explanation is not something I endorse. That's why I thought a spiritual forum wouldn't be necessary--I really thought that the purpose of RE was to help people not to exclude them. Does whoever runs that forum have any accountability to anyone and again: What are the criteria for gaining access to a forum that is sponsored by EPO? I sincerely believe everyone has a right to at least know the purpose of that forum and I'm so sorry you were dissed Janet. I understand well the stigma of having a mental illness and being rejected on that basis is plain wrong! Now I really want to know what that forum is about. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Criteria for Recent Exes Forum? From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:52:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia (and anyone else interested), The procedure for getting access to the Recent Exes forum is send a request by email to the FAs (email address on EPO). The FAs then do a basic screening process, checking stuff like if the person is an ex-premie, and then put the request to the current posters on the forum. If the current posters are happy, then the person is given access. From the outside it looks mysterious, but as the whole point of the forum is for people to post knowing their posts are confidential, how can it be otherwise? I requested admission because the question arose as to whether it should be featured on EPO. Valid concerns were raised about new people going there and never posting on EPO. I can report those concerns have proved unfounded, and that the action is here. Nothing mysterious happens there. In fact, at times, nothing happens at all, but I think it has value in that it provides a place where people can talk to other ex-premies in confidence. In this regard it's not that much different to email conversations between exes which happen all the time. The issue of rejection is a tough one. Because of the democratic nature of the application process, although secret, some people will be rejected. The FA admitted that Steve's rejection was not handled well, and I believe the process has since improved, in that the reasons that people are uneasy about a specific applicant are now put to the applicant, and I know that some have accepted those reasons, and have recognised that RE is not for them. I have no knowledge of Janet's rejection, or how it was handled. I hope this helps. John.

Subject: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:36:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, You're just reporting on what you've seen on RE since you've been reading it. What about before? Ask your fellow RE members.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 22:48:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I joined there were threads going back a month or two which I read, and nothing untoward was happening. I think someone would have noticed had some wholesale censoring occurred for my benefit. If you're refering to Run's time as FA, then the forum was very different then. He was continually egging other members to discuss the atmosphere of F5. He got booted out, or resigned, but he ended up as being unpopular there. When I joined that first time to adjudicate between you and Run about an argument you were having on F5, I also read the whole thing, and before Run took over as FA, it was like it is now, pleasant and harmless. A couple of times since I rejoined, people have started threads about you, and have been immediately stopped on the grounds that it's inappropriate to talk about people who can't answer back. So what question would you like me to ask other RE posters? BTW, on LG you have been accused of outing people here, when I called the accuser, someone else responded that you outed Run and Nimrod. I can't recall these events. Is it true you outed them without their permission? John.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 23:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re RE: (funny, huh?) -- just do this, if you're interested. Ask some of the regulars there, if I was being dissed and how badly during the period just before you joined so you could 'monitor' RE regarding the propriety of maintaining the EPO link. Re LG: No, as far as I recall, I didn't out either Run or Nimrod. Not as far as I can recall anyway. Why, did you? :) No, seriously, who's saying that?

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 05:28:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Robyn accused you of outing people (2 or 3) but can't remember who. Someone anonymous said it was Run and Nimrod. Robyn said she'd get back to me. Re; RE, I'll think about it, but I can't see it doing any good. It certainly hasn't happened while I've been there which is quite a while now. John.

Subject: Re: Yeah but what about BEFORE you joined? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:23:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, Let's drop the RE thing. You know what you've seen and what you haven't since you've been posting there. Let's just leave it at that. As for Robyn's claim, as usual poor Robyn is confused. The only person I ever outed was Vacol (Keith) and that was years ago. What happened was this. Vacol had come onto the forum as a premie who relished the challenge of debating Maharaji's legitimacy. He approached me with flourish and bravado, clamouring for attention and pronouncing his great (and soon to be infamous) clarion call: LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! Well, no sooner had we started, like immediately after, then he began doing the premie snake dance (or was it the premie chicken dance? Can't quite remember.) Simultaneously, he emailed me under his real name, Keith, and, sorry, but I wasn't so sensitive to the Rights of the Anonymous Poster then, having not actually read the Magna Carta for years. You know. Anyway, I was angry. I thought this guy was playing me -- us -- for fools. 'Great debate' my ass!, I thought, and so I outed him as Keith on the forum. And that's about it. Keith since went on to become a petty new age guru in his own right. He might even have a follower by now. And I stayed right here. By the way, please ask Robyn what her current views about her friend Quiet are. Quiet, you'll recall, came onto the scene a few months ago claiming to be a new poster, a recent ex in fact, who was collecting info about all the 'illegal acts' we claim Maharaji has committed. He also said he was an Aussie law student who lived with or shared a computer with five or six other exes, none of whom chose to identify themselves right now. Oh, they had their reasons! On top of that, the only interesting thing about him was that he couldn't spell well enough to run the teleprompter on Hee Haw. Several people, myself included, tried to communicate with him, establish some basis for trust as, on the face of it, he wasn't making sense. What was his trip? His angle? Who knew but one thing we suspected was that he was certainly not what he claimed to be. When he refused to answer any questions about himself directly or with any apparent sincerity at all, Gerry and Pat called him a fake and a troll and blocked him. Robyn, who hadn't been posting for some time, jumped into a thread, on AG I believe, where she warned him in the strongest possible terms to not 'open up' to me as I was a bad, untrustworthy person who had done many terrible things to people over time. This then led to much needless fractiousness between AG posters, a precursor in some respect to the recent Debacle (thank you, Pat), as Quiet, or Q, found friendship and much to talk about with Robyn and a couple of others, namely how bad Pat, Gerry, I and others were to suspect him of being anything other than what he claimed. Quiet loved it. He ate it up. Long gone was any further mention of his initial effort to rally support for the nebulous plan he had claimed to have regarding Maharaji. All Quiet did now was flame me and others, making stupid lawyer jokes and sounding like a ten year old ADD sufferer reacting poorly to Ritalin. Oh that and blow lots of air kisses to his new friends, Robyn, Selene and, of course, that paragon of mental health herself, Deborah. Anyway, it recently came to light that Quiet is, in fact, no law student at all. Indeed, he's not even quiet. He's Twiz (a/k/a Oliver, a/k/a Des Parado a/k/a Phil Garrett). Or, to be more accurate, he's posting from the identical computer as those former 'contributors' to the forum. Twiz who is a mentally unstable ex in Australia who posted on and off under that variety of aliases, none of which he admitted at the time. How did Chuck notice this? Well, Phil's latest worthwhile gesture as a human being was to quit posting as Quiet and start chasing me around everywhere, flaming me with ugly lawyer jokes, under a new disguise as ZB. Phil still has no idea what he did wrong. So, please, John, ask Robyn about her friend Quiet. Is she still worried about the terrible harrassment and suspicion he suffered?

Subject: Robyn attacked you, Jim, From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:25:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......and defended Quiet on Chit Chatroom. That's what actually started the Debacle. And thank goodness it all happened because it provided enough agitation to seperate the wheat from the chaff and we now have a sane F7 where game-players are no longer humored.

Subject: Yes, I agree completely -- and John? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:24:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Discussing this further with Laurie this morning, I now remember that, in fact, it was Drek who 'outed' Nimrod to the extent that, while he was FA and also running EPO and had access to such information, he identified Nimrod as someone posting from an internet cafe in Montreal. This was when Joey, suffering from his own paranoid delusions, began posting as Nimrod to attack Roger relentlessly, accusing him of being a premie 'plant' or spy on the theory that, by ridiculing certain former PAMs on his irreverent site, he MUST have been trying to scapegoat them somehow in order to deflect criticism from Maharaji. Drek couldn't take the harrassment after a while -- there's no talking to someone in that state -- and threw up his hands in despair, giving the wheel, which he'd only had briefly, back to Brian. Brian came down on Drek like a ton of bricks, caustically denouncing him to the core and that triggered the first big fight we ever had as some of us thought that, well, Drek wasn't quite that bad. :) As for Run, Gerry outed him, I believe, when Run exhausted his patience, again with paranoid delusions. In Run's case, he was accusing me of being a cult-leader and using RE to foment that kind of idiocy. Gerry had enough and identified him as Seth from Texas. So what's Robyn saying anyway? Could you please show me?

Subject: Thanks for the history lesson From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:06:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to go to work soon and don't have the time to go back to LG and reread her posts. But none of them are about you anyway. :C)

Subject: Oh, I lied. Robyn re your outing of exes From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:15:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just found one I had not read. Now I really must go and see if I can get a fair trial for some brown lentil boboti. Robyn on LG: Dear John, I believe he has done it 2 or 3 times but am positive about the first because I was floored, shocked, pissed and felt so bad for the person. A gentle man who must have come to terms with it because he is an ex that got one of those ex-premie cards made not so long ago. He use to post as Anon but there may have been other Anon's at different times, not sure on that. I believe it was before the forum was using Brian's software. I am so bad with time and dating stuff. I can email some people from back then and see. I don't even remember his name and I think I thought he was from Germany but that he was really from England. I am thinking what a horrid memory I have but then I remember obscure facts like the fact that the Statue of Liberty in NY Harbor is 200 feet tall! I will try to get some info on this for you. Love, Robyn

Subject: Yes, well ....... From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:41:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, Pat, and hopefully your little lentils will avoid the death penalty (although I hear they're in very hot water!). I'm afraid that poor, gentle Robyn is confused again. This time she's talking about none other than our own Patrick Wilson who used to post as Anon and who I used to encourage to post under his own name (this is way back when there were hardly any of us and every stand up name seemed to count somehow). He finally did, thanked me profusely for egging him on and has, in fact, been a strong advocate for crossing that line ever since. Any chance you can post this for me on LG, just for the record, so to speak? Not now of course. Later. Thanks, Jim

Subject: Done [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:39:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:55:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is so open minded and fair, I think I'll make you my new guru. Just joking, it's not an identity I'd put on anyone.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:55:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is so open minded and fair, I think I'll make you my new guru. Just joking, it's not an identity I'd put on anyone.

Subject: Thanks, Bolly. Just send checks to....:C) [nt] From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:03:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:45:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, You said: One of these is called Recent Ex-premie Forum which I don't know much about. From the little I know, I gather it was meant to be a kinder, gentler forum for traumatised recent ex-premies - a detox or rehab joint. There are whispers that it was started as a password protected forum to exclude people like Jim - atheists,anti-spiritualists and other objectivists - labelled ''bullies'' by the more sensitive spiritual exes. I don't think the original intent of the Recent Ex Forum was to be able to talk about spirituality. I was part of that forum very early on and my experience was that it was a place for those who were having difficulties emotionally and spiritually with the exiting process. It was a place to discuss more personal life issues that were affected by leaving m after a long time. It may have evolved to a place to be away from confrontation now, but I wouldn't know. When I was there the discussions were just about private matters. Because I believe that Maharaji committed spiritual abuse I also feel a bit wary of yet another forum being started for ''spiritual exes.'' I think it might lead to more polarization between exes, vis a vis, the atheists vs. the believers. I still don't know what the answer is regarding those who want to post here about their search for spirituality. I certainly don't want to be preached to about this or that newly acquired journey someone may find which suits them. There must be some middle ground here that can be found to allow for those exes who are not atheists.

Subject: I fixed your italics From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:06:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And thanks for the info about RE. I don't have answers but I do have plenty of ideas. :P

Subject: Re:F7 is not spiritual-friendly. From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:43:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, its healthy to have your cage rattled once in a while, who knows, you may discover that YOU have been the prisoner! Open debate can be intimidating for those used to control and censure of speech and thought for so long; in fact , it is the very violence of one's own reaction to an 'anti-spiritual' posting that may be interpreted as a litmus test for one's own dogma. If you don't agree with a viewpoint, say so, and why. That's the benefit of F7: if I were to say I LOVED meditation, and it put me in touch with my soul, there would be those that identified with my statement and those that thought it was a crock of shit... so what! it wouldn't change how I FELT...unless of course, I was faking it... And if I thought it was a crock of shit, then I would be expected to say why, and make sense for all to understand, otherwise I'd just be a loud mouthed reactionary, wouldn't I?! LOVE, AV...(really...there's a LOT of good hearts here, and good minds too; who knows who's right or wrong ultimately, what we understand is contantly in flux, evolving, unfolding...that is part of the beauty, our gift also, I am sure.)

Subject: The mental health issue? From: hamzen To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:24:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think this issue is quite that simple. What about those with mental health issues, no judgement involved, just straight, as is, as any of us who've been around this territory knows it's a bit more complex than that. Then mix in a cult that amplifies and magnifies 'issues' and you have a recipe for extreme sensitivity, I don't think this issue is just about sensitivity over spirituality, but sensitivity and how it is handled. If you are in that state, and don't fancy recent exes, well there was nowhere else, until recently. I have some hope for Lifes Great after recent events, we'll see. Maybe they'll be able to combine, issues, spirituality, and the magic of the moment.

Subject: Re: The mental health issue? From: AV To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 01:24:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: an excellent point; not it isn't that simple taken the mental health issue on board...are there any skilled on-line practitioners in the fold that could offer specialised help?

Subject: Re: The mental health issue? From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:04:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Hamzen and AV, Could either or both of you explain further what you mean by the 'mental health' issues? I curious what you mean by that. I do have a mental health diagnosis, i.e., a label. Many others here may have a label, too. So I welcome a more precise explanation of your meaning. It would mean a lot to me to hear your thoughts in more detail. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Self-confidence From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:11:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You and the Brit newbies like Livia and Thorin have arrived here with quite a lot of self-confidence. The groundwork for that had been laid by the pioneers like Jim who first defied the cult. There was a time when exes were very vulnerable and timid. It's refreshing to see you guys not be afraid of rational discourse. Having to argue one's POV really strengthens one's self-confidence.

Subject: To AV or whoever From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:24:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear AV You ended by saying: really...there's a LOT of good hearts here, and good minds too; who knows who's right or wrong ultimately, what we understand is contantly in flux, evolving, unfolding...that is part of the beauty, our gift also, I am sure How perfectly put - thank you kindly Sir. I just love the flux and have no problems in hopping from one opinion to another. The only constancy that I am aware of is that I am alive (or maybe I simply think this to be the case)and that somehow I have consciousness (but then again some say that I am not conscious). So maybe there is some divine spirit controlling my actions and life (if so, why the heck is my bank balance always so depleted?) or maybe I am simply a coagulation of replicators, genes and memes (in which case would someone kindly point out the one that controls hair colour please!.) Somewhere truth is evident, but I gave up long ago, the care of finding it dissolved. Somehow beauty has become evident and I trundle along. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: You got it ! From: gerry To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 07:24:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this statement contains the very essence of 'enlightenment': Somewhere truth is evident, but I gave up long ago, the care of finding it dissolved. Somehow beauty has become evident and I trundle along.

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:17:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Frankly, the idea of a 'spiritual' ex-premie site makes me queasy. Let's face it--no-one even knows what the word 'spiritual' means and there is damn little unity to be had under that banner. It may be that the atheistic corner should exercise a little humility and acknowledge that their position, while being intellectually quite rigorous, leaves us in a universe without meaning and with lives without meaning. Let's debate these things, but with a little less aggression. BTW, the idea that F7 is a cult is absurd and best ignored. We seem to be very varied people, unified by the internet to confront the monolith of EV. If we are a cult then so is NATO--so is any group with a purpose. Neville

Subject: Re: A forum for spiritual ex-premies? From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:10:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, Zen finds the concept of God to be an needless addition to a universe that is perfect the way it is. I agree with PatC on this one. =)

Subject: Atheism and Meaning From: JHB To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:18:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I disagree with your statement that atheism leaves us in a universe without meaning and with lives without meaning. With or without a God, the universe is a wondrous place, and our lives can be rich with whatever meaning or purpose we choose. John.

Subject: Yes, John, but to be fair ..... From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 08:36:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, Just because there's no God to give our lives some special meaning or purpose, it does not follow that those are qualities we can necessarily give ourselves. Frankly, I think that's twisting the meaning of 'meaning' a bit. 'Purpose' for sure. Isn't the cold reality that, without a God to give us a purpose, we just don't have one? 'Purpose' implies some intention that evolution certainly doesn't have. Any 'purpose' we give ourselves, after the fact, when we're already here and just deciding how we want to spend our time, seems superficial and an abuse of the term. That's the kind of 'purpose' we could change at whim and what kind of purpose is that?

Subject: Re: Atheism and Meaning From: eb To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John and all, Maybe AV's post more closely resembles what I have to say, but your post demonstrates exactly where EPO and the Forums got me. Always a bongo premie hanging out with other bongo premies, I found myself a single mom with 4 kids during the 80's, extremely depressed. Started therapy and got into every new-age healing modality I could find--all on scholarship. Whatever I was into at the time seemed to give me the ultimate 'ah ha' this-is-it experience (although deep down I knew it was by His grace. I love drumming and trance dancing and learned to get blissed out on any number of methods. Still ended up on medication for this damned pernicious depression. In the beginning I was scared to death to post on the forum; instead I spent 6 months reading archives which deprogrammed me. Getting past the Maharaji bullshit was easy compared to dealing with the accumulation of hooey hooey new age baggage I'd acquired. There came a point where I got clear of it and was able to take the atheist's view. At first it felt very meaningless and empty; I couldn't maintain that perspective without doubling my dosages :). But now I'm in the curious position of having the freedom to choose what and how to believe (still within the constructs of a genetically inferior brain, which I take into consideration whenever the brook beckons). I may be more spiritually-inclined than ever thanks to EPO. eb

Subject: Re: Atheism and Meaning From: PatC To: eb Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:19:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, atheism does not leave me empty. I am satisfied with the beauty of this wondrous universe without a need for any speculation as to it's cause. Nice one, eb. Don't you think the forum has gotten more sensible and more sensitive? Without all the cult disruptors being taken seriously anymore, the atmosphere is much more mature and subtle. Hope you are well and happy.

Subject: Re: Atheism and Meaning From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 07:48:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure the flowers are beautiful, but tomorrow they die. From Plato to Sartre, philosophers have recognised that nothing has meaning unless it is in some way linked to the transcendental. All the saints, theologians etc who searched for the transcendental were not idiots--they recognised the need. It's a conundrum and I'm not proposing any answers, and I can see the attraction of open-and-shut atheism, especially after Rawat's bullshit. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but face it: 'No finite point has any meaning unless it relates to an infinite reference point.'--JP Sartre. Neville

Subject: open-and-shut atheism From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:38:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I'm not an open and shut atheist. I just don't know. I haven't closed any doors. I just no longer have any interest in speculating.

Subject: Re: Atheism and Meaning - PatC From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 20:53:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, there is a great little Woddy Allen film you might like on this very subject. It's called 'Crimes and Misdemeanours.'

Subject: Atheism From: eb To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:35:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not sure if I conveyed this in my previous post: in the process of attempting to view life as an atheist, I moved through a feeling of emptiness to a perspective of life which doesn't depend on a deity. Often the view is beautiful and satisfying, but it can also be horrible and ugly. Without a deity to call on during the 'Dark Night of the Soul' (which in my case have been hundreds), I'm learning to accept the highs and the lows in the present without resorting to a belief system for an explanation or comfort. Hey Pat. Relatively speaking, things are excellent. It seems to me the atmosphere of this forum was always adversarial, which actually helped me get deprogrammed. I can't follow the logic in most threads to see why people are so angry or hurt, so I go off and play as Ophelia. Dissociation has been very good to me. :) Just the other day I asked Drek if sound logical paths exist that are evident to all except me. Guess I shoulda stayed in school instead of following that rock band. I may forever be disadvantaged by ADD and the inability to follow a thread. Or maybe not. ;)

Subject: Dark nights of the soul From: PatC To: eb Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:49:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The funny thing is that ever since I stopped believing that I have a ''soul'' I no longer have any dark nights of the soul. :C) Glad to hear that your purring along nicely but you didn't say what Drek's answer was and have me in suspenders. :P

Subject: Don't give me that shit eb :) From: hamzen To: eb Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:46:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You ain't foolin me for a moment. I reckon you'll be reading threads fine when you're not bored by them, if you ain't already on some level. Really good to see ya here, missed flavours, not just personally but for the forum too. Brazilian Drum'n'bass, believe! l8ers yeah hamzen the shit dj oh and as an aside see hamzen as trailer trash down the thread at the link above, where's barry when you need him...... yeah well 62.189.202.205/waffle/forum/vt.asp?TID=1660&PN=4

Subject: Re: Don't give me that shit eb :) From: Robyn To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:57:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear hammy, Very funny! I have to make a correction from your email though. I live IN CountryBumpkinville but I live across the street from the Bumpasses(sp?), affectionately borrowed from the movie, 'A Christmas Story'. I couldn't tell you and the misses from the lot of 'em though. :) Love, Robyn

Subject: Don't any of these people work for a living? From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:18:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a pretty funny page there, Ham. You okay? :)

Subject: re: how 'bout this shit? From: eb To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:22:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dizzy I am looking at all the subject lines as they swirl and twirl and dance all round like crazed skedelic lightning bolts till I'm nauseous on the floor with heart palpitations and sweat. Seriously. Hook me up with the link--don't leave me wading thru the curling smoke, you old tease, you.

Subject: Hilbilly Ham From: gerry To: eb Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 17:54:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So was that fellow wearing the reb scarf the daddy?

Subject: how'ja guess? NT From: eb To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 21:45:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: by the big grin on his face... [nt] From: gerry To: eb Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 09:21:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to eb. re pernicious depression From: AV To: eb Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:26:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear you about pernicious depression: one of the triggers maybe the fear of being stuck, knowing you can't go back, but the way forward looks bleak, alien , frightening. If you can find a way to generate just a tiny amount of motion, you may just find enough of a gradient to get the ball rolling, move that giant stone from the door to the tomb, and peek out into the fresh air. No, it's not easy; it's probably akin to scaling a vertical steel wall from the inside, but from the outside it's a bead curtain. Don't give up EB, put matters of M and K aside if they complicate the issues for know, just get your sense of life and sense of self back; in time the shadows do melt away to less threatening forms. Hope you don't find this innapropriate or off the mark, LOL.

Subject: PS From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:40:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Starting this weekend I will hopefully be busy - from Memorial Day onwards for the next three months. Summer has usually been good business for me. Last year the dotcom bomb made business bad and I was able to be involved here a lot. But I'm hoping, obviously, to be busier this year. I will still help Gerry with FA work and read and post when I get spare time. If you need to let me know something quickly though, email me. I've finally blocked most of the anonymous cult apologist trolls - for a while at least - but they may be back. Holler if that happens and I'll help Gerry the Exterminator rid the forum of rodents again.

Subject: Pat, have a great summer From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 07:47:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe afterwards, you guys could pile into your big black shiny mercedes and point it north. Heck, it's only about 12 to 14 hour drive from SF.

Subject: Thanks, Gerry From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:25:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One day, when I have some more time and money, I'll pile the boys and the dogs into an RV and come visit.

Subject: Great post, Pat From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:35:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would just like to add my views. I'm a don't know on whether there's a God or 'spiritual' dimension to life. When people post here talking about knowledge or meditation as a way to access our 'real selves', or some other 'cosmic' reality, then I ask, quite reasonably in my view, if they have any evidence other than their own feelings, that what they experience in meditation is something more than feelings (admittedly very powerful). Dep eventually answered that he had no evidence, so fine, he has a belief system or religion. Dep and other people who have similar religious beliefs are welcome to them, but if they want to talk about them here, they should be able to analyze why they have those beliefs, and either present strong evidence supporting the beliefs, or admit that it's a matter of faith. If someone could convince me that there's something else, that would be fantastic. Especially if we do live forever and go to heaven. So, I really am open to be pursuaded. John.

Subject: Re: Great post, Pat From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 08:25:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep eventually answered that he had no evidence, so fine, he has a belief system or religion. Dep and other people who have similar religious beliefs are welcome to them, but if they want to talk about them here, they should be able to analyze why they have those beliefs, and either present strong evidence supporting the beliefs, or admit that it's a matter of faith. Damn! As a strict Theravda Buddhist I have no belief system or religion. Belief systems (BS) are barriers to the experience of our original nature. They get in the way of meditation. They are barriers to the experience of meditation. I say do away with all belief systems, even spiritual belief systems. Talking about them only reinforces their meaning. I'm not going to waste my time arguing over who has the 'best' spiritual concepts. Wipe the slate clean, turn off the soap opera, make yourself as an empty space with no meaning and no content. At least for a few minutes a day. That's my religion!

Subject: Oh REALLY, Dog? From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep eventually answered that he had no evidence, so fine, he has a belief system or religion. Dep and other people who have similar religious beliefs are welcome to them, but if they want to talk about them here, they should be able to analyze why they have those beliefs, and either present strong evidence supporting the beliefs, or admit that it's a matter of faith. Damn! As a strict Theravda Buddhist I have no belief system or religion. Belief systems (BS) are barriers to the experience of our original nature. They get in the way of meditation. They are barriers to the experience of meditation. I say do away with all belief systems, even spiritual belief systems. Talking about them only reinforces their meaning. I'm not going to waste my time arguing over who has the 'best' spiritual concepts. Wipe the slate clean, turn off the soap opera, make yourself as an empty space with no meaning and no content. At least for a few minutes a day. That's my religion! --- No belief system or religion, huh? And that's because you're a 'strict Theravada Buddhist'? Dog, you are falling for the exact same bullshit you did as a premie. How many years did you spend telling us here that you didn't have any concepts there either? Here, you fool ... here are some of the now-you-see-'em-now-you-don't concepts of Theravada Buddhism you don't have: IS THERAVADA BUDDHISM FOR ARAHANTSHIP ONLY? By U Silananda Although Theravada Buddhism is known more widely than before nowadays, there are still some misunderstandings concerning it. There are still people who believe and say (or rather write) that Theravada is for Arahantship only. Before we talk about this subject, we must understand the meaning of the word arahant. According to Theravada Buddhist teachings, an arahant is a person who has reached the fourth and highest stage of enlightenment. All those who have reached this stage are called arahants, worthy ones. Worthy of what? Worthy of accepting gifts from devotees, because gifts made to those persons bring abundant results. According to this definition, all those who have reached this stage, both disciples and Buddhas (and Pacceka-Buddhas also), are called arahants. There are numerous places in the Pali Canon where the Buddha is referred to as arahant, see for instance the formula of homage which Buddhists say everyday: 'Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa!'; observe also the statement in the Mahavagga of Vinaya Pitaka, 'There are now six arahants in the world', i.e., the five first disciples and the Buddha. But arahant is also used to refer to the disciples only, and it is in this sense that the word arahant is used hereafter in this article. According to Theravada teachings, there are three kinds of beings who have reached the fourth stage of enlightenment: Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas, and Arahants. Arahants are also called Savakas or Disciples; they are subdivided into Aggasavaka (the Best Disciples), Mahasavaka (the Great Disciples) and Pakatisavaka (the Ordinary Disciples). All of these beings are enlightened persons, but their quality of enlightenment differs from one another. The enlightenment of the Buddhas is the best, that of Pacceka-Buddhas is inferior to the enlightenment of the Buddhas, but is superior to the enlightenment of the Arahants, and the enlightenment of the Arahants is the lowest of them all. Buddhas can ‘save’ many beings, or rather they can help many beings ‘save’ themselves by giving them instructions, but Pacceka-Buddhas do not ‘save’ beings because they are solitary Buddhas and do not teach as a rule. The Arahants can and do ‘save’'beings, but not as many beings as Buddhas do. And the time required for the maturity of the qualities of these beings differ greatly. To become a Buddha, one has to fulfill the Paramis (necessary qualities for becoming a Buddha) for four, eight or sixteen Incalculables and 100,000 worlds cycles; but for a Pacceka-Buddha the time is only two Incalculables and 100,000 world cycles. Among the Disciples, for an Aggasavaka, the time required is one Incalculable and 100,000 world cycles, while for a Mahasavaka, it is only 100,000. But for the Pakatisavaka, it may be just one life, or a hundred lives, or a thousand lives, or more. It is important to note that once a person becomes an arahant, he will not become a Buddha in that life; and since there is no more rebirth for him, he will not become a Buddha in the future either. In Theravada Buddhism one is not forced to follow the path to Buddhahood only, but is given a choice from among the paths mentioned above. So a Theravada Buddhist can aspire for and eventually reach Buddhahood; indeed he must be determined to fulfill the Paramis for the long, long time required for the fulfillment of Buddhahood. Or if he so desires, he may aspire for Pacceka-Buddhahood, or one of the states of Arahantship and suffer in the round of rebirths for the time required for his particular choice of the path accumulating the necessary Paramis and ‘save’ as many beings as they can. So a Theravada Buddhist is free to choose what suits his willingness to go through the round of rebirths and suffering. In brief, a Theravada Buddhist can become a Buddha, or a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahant according to his choice. So Theravada Buddhism is for all three paths and not for the path to Arahantship only. Here comes another question: If a Theravada Buddhist can choose any path, why is the attainment of Arahantship so much talked about in Theravada Buddhism? It is because only very few can become Buddhas. As you know (if you have read so far, of course), an aspirant for Buddhahood has to undergo a lot of suffering for a long, long time in the round of rebirths making sacrifices no other being even dreams of; and there can be only one Buddha at a time in the whole world, so that the appearance of a Buddha is very, very rare. Therefore, for every being to aspire for Buddhahood is impractical; it would be like all native citizens of the United States trying to become a President of the United States. Moreover, the purpose of becoming a Buddha is to ‘save’ beings or ‘help beings save themselves.’ But if everybody were to become a Buddha, there would be no beings for a Buddha to ‘save’–please note that Buddhas do not need any instructions from anybody–and so the original purpose would not be served. On the contrary, to become an Arahant is very practical, and millions of beings attained Arahantship during the time of a Buddha. That is why, in Theravada Buddhism, beings are encouraged to try to become Arahants which is practical rather than to become Buddhas which is not so. But as stated before, beings are given freedom to follow the path of their choice in their endeavor for attainment of enlightenment. After all, what is important for all beings is to get free from suffering in the round of rebirths no matter which path they choose. Still another question: Are there Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood? We are glad to answer in the affirmative. But since not many of them are on record, we cannot say how many. At least there was a king in Myanmar during the Pagan Period who built a pagoda and dedicated it to the Dispensation of the Buddha. In that pagoda he left an inscription where he clearly declared his aspiration for Buddhahood; and almost all kings of ancient Myanmar considered themselves to be aspirants for Buddhahood. There are also authors of religious books, mostly monks, who mentioned their aspiration for Buddhahood at the end of their books. So, we can say that there are not a few Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood. * * * * * * * Last revision: August 18, 1997.

Subject: Is the above post from you, Dep? [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:21:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The Kirpal Statistic... From: Chuck S. To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:51:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never doubted that premies who like meditation experience something. I think that the Kirpal Statistic explained that pretty well. It shows that many people exerience the same kinds of things from the techniques, without the benefit of a guru. It's the BELIEFS about what those experiences are, and where they come from, that can be instilled and exploited by a spiritual predator and used to manipulate people. It's been said by some people, premies mostly, that meditation cannot be talked about here. I've been reading the forum for the past year, and I can say that isn't really true. As someone who has found meditation benificial, and who continues to do it, I can say that there are many people here who don't agree, who never got anything out of it, an think it offers nothing. But they are entitled to think that, and as long as nobody tries to convince them otherwise, they seem content to leave it at that. There have been many interesting discussions about meditation, about the techinques and brain chemistry and the experiences described in the Kirpal statistic. Such discussions have, in my opinon, gone well here, when they are discussed rationally and scientifically. However when meditation is discussed as feelings and beliefs, it becomes a more controversial topic here. I think that is understandable, given the way it was used to manipulate so many of us. Feelings can be so subjective, and prone to magical thinking and beliefs. This probably is not the best place to discuss those sorts of things. If there were a forum for 'spritual' minded exes, I could see one of the possible advantages being, that what Maharaji is teaching could be compared to the many other spritual teachings that exist. Maharaji has always maintained that what he is offering is unique and special, and only available from HIM. He doesn't like it to be compared to anything else. The techniques are secret. I'm sure many people would be suprised to find out just how common the techniques are, and how freely available they are, often without a guru. Even examining the spiritual traditions that Maharaji and his father borrowed from, shows the religious roots of M's 'Knowledge'. Seeing how un-original Maharaji's satsangs are, and understanding all the concepts that were given us, while we were being told not to have concepts, can be quite liberating. I don't approve of or feel comfortable with a lot of this New-Age stuff. Much of it seems like bad science or wishful thinking, with a few good philisophical ideas thrown in. But I also know that: 1.) People who are atracted to that sort of thing are going to be into it anyway, and: 2.) Not everyone who is into it, is into giving their own personal power away to some guru or teacher or charleton. On the down side, I think many of the premies are into new age stuff (Maharaji has often teased them about it, and warned them not to mix such things up with Knowledge), and I think many of the exes are uncomfortable with that, because it does leave the door open for magical thinking and beliefs based soley on feelings and deniying rationality. But I also see it like a door that opens inwards and outwards. The New Age stuff can encourage the kind of magical thinking that holds premies spellbound, but it's also true that for some premies, exploring other spiritual venues led them away from Maharaji, and actually showed him up as rather shallow and superficial. This is why Maharaji doesn't like his schtick to be compared with other things. Remember the 'spirituality' drawer he once warned about? In the same way, he doesn't like to be compared to other 'inspirational speakers' either. He doesn't like to be compared, because in comparison, he doesn't look to good. While I was still a premie, I once read some satsang about the breath by a woman in Mill Valley. It was so much more inspiring and clear than anything Maharaji ever said. She wasn't teaching any techinques, or holding out any secrets. It really helped me look at Maharaji differently, by having something to compare him to. Maharaji himself never encourages that. So good things can come out of 'spiritual' comparisons. This forum is about deconstructing the cult, and therefore isn't the best place to talk about touchy feely new-age stuff. But perhaps another forum where that stuff could be tossed around more freely might help some people. It's at least something to consider. **** P.S. to JHB: on the Kirpal statistic page, there is a link that says: "(More chapters of 'Exposing Cults' online here.)" the link seems to be broken. The Kirpal Statistic... www.ex-premie.org/papers/kirpal_statistic.htm

Subject: BEST OF FORUM From: PatC To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:28:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, so I'm being nepotistic. :P:C)

Subject: Re: The Kirpal Statistic... From: Bolly Shri To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:15:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not throw it into the discussion here? A lot of that newagism is just gurus by other names. I have ME/Chronic Fatigue syndrome, and have had for several years. In that time a multitude cures based on the assumption that my attitude is my illnes have been spun by me. Until reading this site I was semi convinced a lack of real devotion had caused my slide into ill health regardless of evidence to the contrary. I feel very strongly that in a culture that holds up different celebs as being ultimate any thing, those attempting to scrape their way to adequate are diminished. Less 'answeres' which ultimately only enhance the wallets of those arrogant enough to claim they have them and more trust in our own perceptions is what we need.

Subject: Live forever and go to heaven? From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, John. You know I value any praise from you, Saint John of Latvia. As I said to Jim the other day - I trust and respect you enough that, if you were a banker, I'd give my money to you. :) Yes, I'd also like to be immortal, not physically, but in heaven and am also a ''don't know if there is a god'' - actually really more of a ''don't care if there is a god.'' It's mostly that I am not a gambler. I don't buy lottery tickets for the same reason I don't pin any hopes on religious speculation. The irony, of course, is that I enjoy meditating more than most of the premies that I know.

Subject: I did spot the Saint John reference:) From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:03:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But modesty forbade me from commenting:) When I was about 6, I overheard my older sister telling my mother about a friend who had taken sixpence (an old British coin for our colonial friends) that she found on a shop counter. The tone of the story was that this was an OK thing to do. A few days later my mother took me shopping and I stole some peanuts from a market stall. As we walked away, I proudly showed my mother the peanuts, and quite rightly she threw them away, yelled at me, and slapped me. Such are the ways morals are taught. I cannot say I was scrupulously honest the rest of my life, but in my early forties I developed a strong moral sense of right and wrong, so yes, you could trust me if I was a banker:) John.

Subject: What about the six pence? From: Gail To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:32:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why was it okay for your sister's friend to take the six pence?

Subject: Re: What about the six pence? From: JHB To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:20:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why was it okay for your sister's friend to take the six pence? --- It wasn't OK. I just misinterpreted the conversation. OK, if my mother was all knowing she would have made it clear to my sister that she disapproved so that I wouldn't have got the wrong idea, but as she was probably cooking for 6 at the time after working all day I think she can probably be forgiven:) John.

Subject: Sing a song of sixpence From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:31:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe I won't invest my money with you after all.

Subject: A pocket full of rye From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:59:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: LIV, a pocket full of rye From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:14:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: people in the Ukraine got really stoned from the fungus that grew on rye (ergotine?) from which lysERGIC acid was derived...maybe there's more to being a breadhead than we give credit for.. LOL

Subject: Results of above poll From: PatC To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 11:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Firstly, if I haven't answered anyone's questions, please draw my attention to them. I read the rest of this thread last night after a long day (new crown and my first false tooth plus busy at work) and didn't have the oomph to answer. So, it looks like Janet is the only one who wants a spiritual forum. There really are plenty out there, Janet. If none of them suit you then turn your chatroom into a pw-protected forum for like-minded people. I don't think you need any help from me, Ms Mensa. Zelda wants not one but TWO spiritual forums: one for aromatherapy and one for astrology. Again, I don't think there is anough of a demand among exes for those subjects. So, the best thing would be to join an existing forum for those topics or start one and see how it flies. But no one asked me to start a forum for talking to the dead which is of course what I'd really like. :C)

Subject: Re: talking to the dead From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 24, 2002 at 04:32:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you do go that route....maybe you'd like to ask Otis Redding if he'd care to come back and do just one more gig.....p l e a s e!!

Subject: alt.cult.maharaji Newsgroup back to life From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 00:59:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: these days ..... some cult's apologists over there !!

Subject: Re: alt.cult.maharaji Newsgroup back to life From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:19:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks J-M I occasionaly pop over there to see if any action. There is a premie guy over there, John Hollingsworth, who writes nicely and seems to want to discuss the various issues. For those interested in this newsgroup but who do not want to configure their email software, can go over there via Google Groups (as per link above). Thorin Maha Newsgroup groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&group=alt.cult.maharaji

Subject: Re: alt.cult.maharaji Newsgroup back to life From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ' There is a premie guy over there, John Hollingsworth, who writes nicely and seems to want to discuss the various issues. ' I thought so at first. But this guy is just another shit head who is soooooooo blissed out that he seems to think it funny that a child got raped. Please correct me if you think I have misunderstood. All the best Jethro (also Perfidy)

Subject: Re: alt.cult.maharaji Newsgroup back to life From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 03:48:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Perfidy Nope you did not misunderstand. My throwaway comment was meant 'tongue-in-cheek'- just an invite for others to go there. Any sane rational person would quickly see the mind-trap the guy was in. Like you I am appalled at his attitude to child rape. I never cease to be amazed at the amorality that Rawatism induces. Thorin

Subject: I looked--and felt ill [nt] From: Neville To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:01:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: alt.cult.maharaji Newsgroup back to life From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the Google trick, Thorin.

Subject: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 06:21:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Personally I believe that if they know things that would help other people to walk away, they do have a responsibility to tell what they know. This is because it's easier for them to walk away free of misgivings than it is for people who were never privy to that sort of information, and are therefore still trapped within an inaccurate projection' Livia wrote the above in a post far below. No truer words were ever spoken, in my opinion, for the reason EPO serves a vital function. Whether one leaves or stays, every single person deserves to know both sides of the coin.

Subject: I read the Mishler Transcpt. From: Bryn To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:34:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I cast my mind back to what I was doing in relationship with GMJ at that time, it is so obvious that I would have been out and down the road had I even suspected ANY of my lord's antics. One sentence in particular stung. something like: M was having doubts about stressing he wasn't the lord because he surmised that it might influence cashflow! OUTRAGEOUS! I was a very vulnerable spiritual boy indeed. I wonder what would have happened if Mishler HAD spoken up somehow, or I had been exposed to such ideas earlier? Life eh? Don't talk to me about life. Love Bryn

Subject: Re: I read the Mishler Transcpt. From: Livia To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:47:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mishler did speak up! We all (or most of us) did know about Mishler 'jumping ship' back then. But very few of us wanted to read the interviews or articles, because we were afraid of being 'polluted' somehow. I remember Ashokanand jumping ship too, in 1975. He decided to stick with Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji when Maharaji got married. He came to London at one point and got a group of us together to talk about his views. I (misguidedly, I later felt, of course) went to hear him speak and found the experience bizarre in the extreme. Here was the person who had given me the techniques of Knowledge when he was a close devotee of Maharaji's, talking about how he no longer believed in M and basically thought M had lost the plot and was in it for the money! After that meeting I felt a couple of hours of total confusion. Just listening to Ashokanand set up a few doubts which had the power to destabilise my whole raison d'etre. There was only one thing to do, as far as I was concerned at the time - meditate for all I was worth, and rededicate myself profusely to Maharaji for having allowed myself one sliver of a doubt! This I rapidly did, and peace was restored to my poor, tormented little brain! This is what it was like in those days. Serious doubt, or doubt of any kind was a serious no-no. People like Mishler and Ashokanand, Bhole Ji and Mata Ji and anyone else who doubted or left Maharaji were considered 'manmat' or crazy, risking lives cast out into utter darkness. No premie worth his salt wanted to have anything whatsoever to do with them - they were considered dangerous even. Or dangerously deluded at the very least. That spirit is still abroad in the numbers of premies I know of who don't even want to look at EPO even though they are online in their homes. They say 'Oh, I don't want to waste my time on that rubbish' or 'I don't want to pollute myself.' The real reason may be very different. They may really be very afraid to have the thing they base their lives on brought out into the light and closely examined. They fear that they too may end up not liking what they see and having to re-evaluate their whole lives. Better leave well alone, as I did back in 1975 and for the next 26 years...... Love, Livia

Subject: Mishler was sane. Ashok was nuts From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:11:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ashokanand tried to get me on his side in Copenhagen back in 74 when he was first doubting Prem. The trouble is Ashok did not make any sense and was much less charismatic (to me) than Rawat.

Subject: YES. It's important... From: Chuck S. To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 15:10:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki said: "Whether one leaves or stays, every single person deserves to know both sides of the coin." I agree. People can make up there own minds, yet how many people have known anything about Maharaji other than his carefully edited stage and screen persona? I sorta knew that all along, that there was a side to Maharaji that I was not seeing, but since there was no information about it, I didn't give it much thought. I think I assumed that since I didn't hear much about it, there probably wasn't much to say. When I discovered EPO, I wasn't willing to just believe anything anyone on the internet said, either. But over time, I have come to believe there are creditable witnesses (especially the more saner and calmer voices, some of whom I've met in person and looked in the eye), and I wondered for a long time why Maharaji just ignored everything that's been said about him. He has sometimes made references to people who he claims have misunderstood him, but he's never bothered to explain the misunderstandings. His refusal to address any of it, and his unwillingness to answer questions, even from his devoted followers, casts him in a pretty doubtful light, to say the least. If he has nothing to hide, then let him hide nothing. I'm sure for some premies, there isn't anything that could be revealed about Maharaji that would make any difference for them. But for many others it would. I know it did for me. Many are believing in a fantasy Maharaji, and without more complete information, they will continue to do so. Everyone at least deserves a chance to know the whole story, to see the larger picture and decide for themselves.

Subject: Re: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 11:50:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Precisely, Vicki. That's why EPO is the most important thing about the online ex-premie presence. There is no doubt in my mind that reading EPO is what freed me from the fake wizard behind the curtain. Actually, I blame Drek's House of Maharaji Drek, for really making me look at the whole cult thing with new eyes. :C)

Subject: damn tootin' From: Roger eDrek To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 21:15:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it's all about me!

Subject: Re: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 12:45:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi PatC You said: Actually, I blame Drek's House of Maharaji Drek, for really making me look at the whole cult thing with new eyes Yes this blame thing is a deep emotion huh? Like you I am really really pissed off that EPO and other like minded resources woke me up from the deep slumber that I was in for nearly 30 years. The dream of that slumber was 'quite nice' - it allowed me to wander round this planet thinking that I, amongst a bunch of other people,were unique in being given the divine key and that I had such a 'perfect' master who loved me so dearly, took care of my every moment, fulfilled my every wish. Oh that dream was so 'nice' - like the dreams of the fairy god mother, santa claus and the bunny rabbit. So yes a lot of blame is directed at EPO/F7/Drek (whatever) for shattering that dream. Funny think is tho' - waking up from that dream has proved to be revelation. No more do we have to be tossed on the sea of delusion, but rather can begin to begin to realise our true potential. Life is great without the shackles of Rawatism. :) Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:22:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're not so bad yourself Thorin, you and your sane, intelligent and dare I say it erudite musings! On the subject of PAM revelations, I agree with what everybody has just said above. I think some of the premies over at LG use the limited number of ex PAM voices as apparent evidence that Dettmers, Donner and Mishler were just an unrepresentational few who had their own dubious reasons for falling out of love with Maharaji. They often mention that there are large numbers of people who spend lots of time close to Maharaji and still love him the same. One only has to look at the Passages footage of people like Bobby Hendry and Sandy Collier to sense that all is not well with them. I thought Bobby looked very different from the sparky, sparkly-eyed person he once was, and Sandy looked positively damaged. You also need to bear in mind the fact that they have worked for Maharaji for decades and are on the pay-roll. It would be very hard indeed for people like them to walk away. One also wonders whether Maharaji is now asking people to sign gagging orders in return for references etc. Who knows? I may sound very cynical here but this is the real world here and any long-term PAM wanting to leave will probably be in their 50's and have genuine worries about their future employment prospects. By the way, does anyone here know who the rest of the current constant PAMS are; I mean the people who look after him full-time, cook for him, drive him etc etc? Are they generally all long-term premies? People like Peter Leigh, John Hampton etc? It would be interesting to know. Bests to everyone, Livia

Subject: Who WAS that PAM I talked with at the res? From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:55:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One day in the late eighties, after quite a wild, fun night, some friends and I found ourselves strolling through the back alleys of Venice, I think it was, as the sun came up. What a beautiful, California morning. Anyway, our party split up and one friend, since lost to speed, I'm afraid, Don was his name, and I took a drive up PCH. Yes, indeed what a beautiful California morning. We didn't have a destination. Just driving, listening to music, laughing about the night before and other things. I'd just gotten this car, one of the early Integras, and was just digging the hell out of it. Let's drive. Anyway, as we get into Malibu, no where to go really, I get an idea. I tell Don that I know an interesting spot with an incredible view just up the road a couple more miles. Up by Trancas Canyon. Sure, he says. Why not? They'd already put the gate up on Anacapa by then but it was open that bright, early morning as we drove right up to the res. I guess the night before was Marolyn's birthday as the compound walls were still decorated with balloons. Don and I sat on the hillside, enjoying the quiet, distant roar of the ocean -- or at least the look of the ocean, as I can't really remember what we could hear. It was quiet, restful, a few birds chirping. I think I saw a hawk as well. We just sat there, looking out, me in my goth / punk niteclub regalia, Don the same, and I told him who it was that was still sleeping, mere feet away, behind those castle walls. That is, I told Don that I used to be in a cult and that the guy whose property we were trespassing on was none other than my former cult leader, the erstwhile Lord of the Universe, Maharaji. Don, being a good ten years younger than me, didn't know what the hell I was talking about. But he was interested as I thumbnailed the story for him. Before long another car drove up and a nice woman, about my age, got out carrying some fresh-squeezed orange juice from the market below and the Sunday Times. Naturally, she wanted to know who these two punks were. She was friendly enough and so was I as I explained to her that I was a premie, well, not exactly a premie. That is, I used to be a premie. In fact, I lived in Canadian ashrams for eight years in the seventies. Yeah, honestly. But now, you see, I don't really believe in any of this stuff anymore, I said. I told her that Maharaji seemed to be ducking all the serious, sincere questions that came his way and that, at a certain point, I just threw my lot in with Mr. Mind. I tihnk I even told her about my encounter with Raja Ji and how he had admitted that even he felt stonewalled by Maharaji. She was pleasant and listened to me. The air was so fresh, the morning so nice, I don't know about her. Maybe she was used to that spot and it meant little to her. To me, it was great just standing there. No rush to go anywhere, say anything. But then I asked her how she felt about the fact that she was spending all her days, years in fact (as she had told me), serving Maharaji like this? Yes, I asked her about all the options she was foregoing. Kids for instance? A career? Anything? She very politely told me that she was just content to be there. She didn't need answers because she didn't have questions. She was just happy to serve and she loved Maharaji a lot. No, she didn't know what to think of this or that but, like she said, who cares? She loved Maharaji and that's all that mattered. We said bye and Don and I drove down to Zuma beach. But that's a different story altogether. :) Anyway, who was she? Any guesses? This would have been '88 or '89. Brown hair, carrying a large thing of OJ and the L.A. times. :)

Subject: Re: Who WAS that PAM I talked with at the res? From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 14:56:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ann Johnson? No, she'd be a lot older than you. Bet she's still there, though.... Love, Liv

Subject: Hi, Liv, no, I know Ann well -- not her [nt] From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:51:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to LIV: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:37:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, I haven't seen passages, but was genuinely concerned about Bobby etc....they've been around for a long time, Bobby always came across as such a solid down to earth and dependable guy who really gave so much. Readind accounts of behind the curtain made me really wonder how these people from my distant past have managed to stay the distance if all the accounts are true...sounds like life in the frying pan back there; jeez, and to think that's where I yearned to be so much of the time... Love A

Subject: Re: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:54:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks much for that post and your warm thoughts Re PAMS and former PAMS. Nothwithstanding their positions I do feel a great deal of sympathy for them - especially former PAMS. Like us they have invested a vast amount of their power in the Rawat Creed. To breakaway from this, I know, is difficult as it requires a complete re-focus on one's outlook, a near total transformation of their understanding of the past. For many, again I am sure, this transformation has happened and they now simply look to the future for their fulfilment, to muse over the past is difficult, a practice that it is felt will be unrewarding. But will it? I think not. I left the Rawat Creed often but it is only now, since 1999, that understanding my inheritence, my past, can I move on, properly prepared for the wonderful future that lies in front of all us. The shadows of the past require illumination. Without illumination is to be stuck forever in a state of limbo. Of course there is also the moral question (responsibility?) of PAMS and former PAMS communicating. fondly, Thorin

Subject: I also blame you and Thelma :C) From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 13:00:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and my dogs and Pauline Premie. I can't believe how much you Brit newbies (AV and Livia and you) have added so much to the forum in so short a time. Thanks. You Too Can Be Satguru www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/sc/satgooroo/u2satgooroo.htm

Subject: Re: I also blame you and Thelma :C) From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 14:50:50 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.co.uk Message: Why thank you Mr Conlon Of course I have fallen madly in love with Pauline and Andrea, they are so wise and pronounced - dare I say sexy to boot :) Dogs? Hmmmm methinks a bit of evolution may still be in order there! Mind you I have had deep and meaningful relationships with that species. Regarding AV and Livia - I am just a candle to their sunlight. take care, Thorin

Subject: Re: Behind the Curtain Behavior From: Jethro To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 07:05:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think many exs forget that many people come to m & K for many reasons other than being 'seekers after truth'. Many premies I have known really love all the sleaze. One premie on LG says the sex scandals as 'satsang', I wonder what he thinks about the fact that there have been molestations and rape. This is the same mentality as devotees of saibaba who see him as giving spiritual grace when he interferes with boys. Maharaji's mysogany is certainly loved by many of his followers, and somehow they all let him get away with it...even the women. They probably hink it's cool to be demeaned by the Lord. As I used to think it cool when I was Holi in India and Maharaji hit me and some others with rocks due to the water pressure. Oh how I loved the cut on my head that the Satguru gave me just like Gary what's his name probably still loves the broken nose that maharaji gave him. Anyway I'm going for a swim now. Jethro

Subject: Teachers or Tyrants? From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:38:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a follow up to a thread below regarding Andrew Cohen, I found this article (linked in Andrew's mothers website). Very interesting indeed. I particularly liked the end quote 'I don't believe you need anybody. I feel that anything that will happen to you will come from you and not from outside of you.'? The 'Big Daddy' reference is also very amusing. It is interesting to see a positive case made out for a particular Guru - who just happens to be dead, funny that. Here is the article. ======================== L.A. Times, Saturday, August 15, 1998 Teachers or Tyrants? By TERESA WATANABE TIMES RELIGION WRITER Faith: Some find spiritual mentors vital to gaining transcendence. Others say they are inherently authoritarian and therefore prone to abusing their power. When they committed their lives to spiritual teachers, Luna Tarlo and Dennis White both sought the same thing: bliss. Tarlo found horror instead -her own beloved son transformed into an arrogant and power -mad guru who used fear, threats and insults to control followers, she says in a scathing new book, 'Mother of God.' But White says his guru, the late Paramahansa Yogananda, gave him the lessons and yoga techniques to help him uncover his own spiritual nature. He says he obtained the bliss he had been furiously searching for in a quest that cut a heavy intellectual swath through tomes on subjects from Western existentialism to St. Francis and other saints. Thirty years later, White is still a devotee of Yoganda, as Brother Satyananda since joining the monastic order in 1976, he speaks joyfully of his guru's overwhelming love, humility and gentleness, his deep respect for others and his boundless desire to serve. That two seekers could end up with such radically different experiences illustrates the timeless dilemma involving spiritual teachers. Whether Hindu guru, Jewish rabbi, Zen priest or Christian preacher, are teachers necessary for spiritual growth? How do you tell the mad from the magnificent? Are gurus, as some analysts argue, inherently authoritarian in their insistence on obedience and surrender? Or, in helping guide people to realize deep spiritual truths and directly experience transcendence or God, do they offer liberation and empowerment? The questions yield emphatic answers-of every stripe. Although Americans love experts-- and flock to them for guidance in everything from picking mutual funds to developing 'thighs of steel' -spiritual gurus tend to have a bad name. Some analysts say gurus or spiritual masters may be more apt to abuse power in America. Some cite the culture's materialism or moral decay or what the noted Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman called our 'long -term Western patriarchal structure deeply embedded with an omnipotent monotheism figure seen as all-controlling and all-powerful.' Or, as he puts it more colloquially, 'Despite our self-image of independence . . . there is a general problem in this society of seeking father figures and saviors-of looking for Big Daddy.' In their 1993 book, 'The Guru Papers,' Diana Alstad and Joel Kramer argue that the guru-disciple relationship-and all religious systems, East and West-are inherently authoritarian because they require absolute surrender and obedience to a person or ideology deemed unchallengeable and infallible. 'There is a social virus in our religion and morality and culture that conditions people to give power away,' Alstad said. In the public mind, the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is probably remembered less for his spiritual philosophy than for his 93 Rolls - Royces, tax evasion and free -sex practices. The tragedies involving Jim Jones of the 1978 Guyana suicide -murders, David Koresh of the 1993 Waco, Texas, inferno and Marshall Applewhite of the 1997 Heaven's Gate millennialist, suicides have all reinforced the image of gurus as deluded, sometimes dangerously disturbed people. 'I don't think anyone becomes a guru unless they want power,' said Tarlo, whose son, Andrew Cohen, was transformed from what she described as a sensitive young man enamored of music into an internationally recognized guru today. 'A lot of them start out OK, but the more power they get, the crazier they get.' During the three years she spent with him in New York, India and elsewhere, Tarlo says Cohen was arrogant in the certainty of his own infallibility and demolished the self-esteem of followers to gain control publicly calling one a 'hypocrite, liar and prostitute,' for instance. Tarlo said Cohen offered no particular spiritual techniques or extraordinary philosophical insights, but exuded a magnetic confidence that captured people's allegiance. Tarlo says she was vulnerable to his lure partly because she had just suffered through the deaths of her parents and husband and because he was her son. 'I was open to it because I really wanted to believe he was the most amazing man in the world,' she said in a phone interview from New York. 'I loved him so, like a foolish mother.' Cohen's organization did not respond to requests for interviews. Alstad and Kramer argue that religious authoritarianism must give way in today's climate of accelerated change and open itself to questions, challenges and feedback. Some spiritual teachers would agree-and the Rev. Wendy Egyoku Nakao of the Zen Center of Los Angeles is one who is making such changes. The center had been plagued by charges of abuse of power, sexual misconduct and 'alcoholism among the leadership in the past, but Nakao says she has already started 'flattening the hierarchy' to help heal her community since taking the helm last year. Among other things, she is instituting a formal- process and supplementing the traditionally hierarchical teacher-student relationship with regular 'councils' -open forums of all Zen community members to discuss issues and share information on equal footing. An outside 'witness' is invited to give feedback on the discussions. We need to change by really opening up,' Nakao said. 'Buddhism is about all -inclusiveness, and the question is, 'What forms can we use to make it more inclusive?'' Asked if she requires surrender from followers, she laughed. 'Never, It gives me chills just to think about it. 'I teach by questions,' she added. 'Inquiry is very, very important. I can guide you, be your companion, maybe interpret the dharma [teachings] in a way you haven't thought of. But ultimately, it's you who has to confirm them yourself. I can't do it for you. In that way, it's very empowering.' Indeed, followers of many religious traditions dispute the notion that all forms of spiritual authority are inherently authoritarian. Lively inquiry and debate- not coercion or force- characterize the relationship between teachers and students in many faiths, and the spiritual bond between a student and a gifted teacher can be of immeasurable value, they say. 'A rabbi helps deepen the student's knowledge of Torah and through that knowledge create his or her own path to God,' said Rabbi Joel Rembaum of Temple Beth Am in Los Angeles. But, he added, the learning relationship is reciprocal-- a point he said was underscored in the following Talmudic statements: 'I have learned much from my teacher. I have learned more from my colleagues. I have learned most from my disciples.' Although the rabbi - a word that means teacher - is presumed to possess superior knowledge and understanding. Rembaum recalled times when his students have given him new insights. One student, he said, pointed out a structure of storytelling in Genesis that he had never before noticed. It underscored God's simultaneous existence as a universal god and as the particular god of the Israelites. Thurman, a follower of the Dalai Lama, said he is constantly debating with his esteemed teacher and even once got the better of him, sort of. In one passionate, hour-long debate over whether the concept of reincarnation was absolutely valid or only partly so, Thurman said the Dalai Lama ended the discussion with a laugh and agreed that Thurman's view of partial validity might be right, 'but not to let it out.' He also publicly told a crowd to follow what he said-'unless it was stupid.' Thurman recalled. Followers of Yogananda-an Indian swami who came to the United States in 1920 and eventually established today's organization of 500 temples in 54 countries before his death in 1952- emphasize that free will and the constant testing of the guru's teachings an critical elements in their relationship. 'He doesn't ask you to take anything on blind faith. He says try the [meditation] techniques, and if you like the results, stick with them,' said Jeff McDowell, 38, at a recent annual gathering of Yogananda's organization, the Self Realization Fellowship, in Los Angeles McDowell was born into the tradition-his father discovered Yogananda after unfulfilling experiences with Pentecostal and Baptist traditions-and says the guru's techniques of yoga and meditation have enriched his life with a deepening sense of joy, calm and well -being. Followers say Yogananda's prolific writings have also given them sage, down-to-earth advice for specific challenges involving relationships, work and health, as well as answers to the kinds of timeless questions that burned in Brother Satyananda's soul: 'Why are we here? Why are we seemingly born unequal? How do you explain abortion? Why do I have this great sense of unknowing? Why don't I know where I'm going?' The Yogananda devotee said those seeking a teacher can recognize a genuine one by his or her 'loving, encouraging qualities.' 'In the highest sense, a guru is one with a tremendous, loving, joyful state of consciousness that he or she very much wants to share, based upon a deep sense of giving or serving or loving,' Brother Satyananda said. 'So there is no evidence of trying to control, coerce or manipulate.' Thurman, a professor of Indo-Tibetan studies at Columbia University, says he tells students who ask that they should look for a teacher who is reluctant to be one and who tries to accelerate the process of spiritual self-reliance. 'The really great teachers will not try to be your teacher. The bad ones will try to keep you and exploit you.' said Thurman, whose insights on finding contentment though Eastern philosophy are expressed in his new book, 'Inner Revolution: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Real Happiness.' He also said vigorous research- the hungry exploration of various religious traditions, philosophies and thought now animating the American cultural landscape-will help people make the right choices. 'One thing wrong with the guru thing is that too many people jump into these things blindly. If people were really well-informed, they would be immune to bad gurus.' Various religious traditions disagree even on whether a formal teacher-student relationship is necessary. In Tibetan Buddhism, says Thurman, only a small group of people desiring very advanced spiritual practices initiate a relationship with a lama in which they basically pledge to see him or her as their personal icon of the Buddha. By contrast, Rembaum said a teacher is indispensable in the Jewish tradition. 'The Torah is not in heaven; it has been given to human beings,' he said. 'You need to have the knowledge of Torah refracted through the intelligence, spirit and experience of the master teacher. You've got to have at least two minds interacting so that questions can be asked.' Such debates leave Tarlo cold. She is still mourning the loss of her son, with whom she has not spoken for three years, and no longer trusts anyone who purports to hold a position of spiritual authority. 'It's terribly sad-this was a child I loved,' she said. Now, she said, 'I don't believe you need anybody. I feel that anything that will happen to you will come from you and not from outside of you.' end

Subject: Cohen and Yogananda From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 20:38:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''I don't think anyone becomes a guru unless they want power,'' said Tarlo, whose son, Andrew Cohen, was transformed from what she described as a sensitive young man enamored of music into an internationally recognized guru today. ''A lot of them start out OK, but the more power they get, the crazier they get.'' She should know as she watched her son's transformation into a guru. Yogananda of course was stark raving mad.

Subject: re: interesting stuff From: fr To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:06:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently watched a short interview with the Dalai Lama and what struck me, despite the lack of English fluency and the general hesitancy in his speech, was the many references to basic values, such as kindness and compassion for one's fellow beings. Now that's not really so striking, because that's of course what most religion's preach, except when one compares it to M and the almost absolute omission of such references. Or is this my distorted EPO brainwashing coming into play??? This is not the first time such thoughts about the cult have struck me, but I am reminded again when seeing another 'spiritual leader' talk in such different terms. What sort of a role model have we had for all these years? It's a continual wonder to me that we didn't become more greedy and selfish and unethical and still retained some basic respect and care for each other as fellow premmies. His often disparaging remarks and cruel jokes about anyone and everyone could have driven us to playground tactics, and perhaps they did, just more sophisticated versions. Luckily I wasn't involved in any 'high level' service, but certainly heard some stories, but of course it was always the fault of the individual premmies in question. NEVER that the culture itself was at fault. ('cult' in culture, is there some linguistic significance?) O, God, I've just flashbacked to how privileged I felt to have M as my master, whenever I listened to religious leaders, the Dalai Lama included! It's funny isn't it that one 'gets it' about the cult, but still have moments of wonder about how empty and tragic the whole thing is, and how it was possible to get so sucked in. Thank you to all who responded to my first post with your warm welcomes. Just a brief explanation to whoever was concerned I was feeling some 'pressure' to deprogram other premmies. I'm generally very much a laissez faire type of person, not into scoring points, debating (for the sake of an argument), conversion or aggressively pushing my own viewpoint, however i have found it very hard to shut up on this one, as I said, because of the freedom I've found, the exhilaration it brings, and yes, the fear and depression and confusion, but it's all part of the RIDE and one i would just not like my friends to miss (because it's all so bleeding obvious now and the hurt is a necessary evil, like freeing oneself from any relationship/friendship that is not based on truth, dignity, respect and equality). Anyway, i've toned down the evangelical side a bit now and back to the 'old me' live and let live approach. I wonder is this PASSION and URGE to share and care part of the early stages of transition out? Have others found this? And if so what has the outcome been? Freedomrider (slowing down from gallop to trot, maybe transformed to 'old nag' by next post)

Subject: Hi, Freedomrider From: PatC To: fr Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 10:52:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I wonder is this PASSION and URGE to share and care part of the early stages of transition out? Have others found this? And if so what has the outcome been?'' It was like that for me when I first started posting here. I felt like yakking here constantly - actually I did yak here constantly. :C) The outcome? I became clear in my thinking and emotions for the first time in 27 years of being squelched into a weird Hindu cult. I learned to communicate in a chatroom (which is not as easy as it looks) and met some very interesting people. In short - I rejoined the human race.

Subject: Re: re: interesting stuff From: PatD To: fr Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 10:02:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder is this PASSION and URGE to share and care part of the early stages of transition out? Have others found this? And if so what has the outcome been? Of course it is. After being pied pipered all one's adult life I can't imagine any other reaction. My wife's reaction(never a premie,& I never really talked about it when I was one)became one of irritation that I couldn't stop banging on about the bastard. My mother's reaction...relief. My brother's reaction....find a hacker willing to break into his bank account. My sister's reaction.....write letters to the great & good. Non-premie friends reaction......taking the piss. The only 2 premie friends I have were impervious to the huge amount of stuff I printed off EPO & gave them. Seemed to take the attitude of boys will be boys, & basically didn't want to know. We're still friends btw. So shout it to the rooftops fr,get it out of your system & good luck to you.

Subject: Interesting stuff? From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:45:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend in the UK emailed me this talk with this fellow called Andrew Cohen who is something to do with a magazine called 'What is enlightenment?' containing articles with titles such as 'is the Guru dead?'. Cohen speaks some sense here actually, although I am not particularly interested in his other 'teaching' per se. If you want to check out the organisation and their ideas the URL is: www.wie.org More interestingly, this friend of mine also mentioned in his email that he heard the other day that a big US PAM has jumped ship following the Leaders article. I'm not sure whether he cares to expand on this yet or whether we will ever hear from the said individual. Anyway, somebody said below that the testimonies of Mischler, Dettmers, Donner etc. were by far the most off-putting things that a wavering premie could read. I totally agree, so I rather hope these disillusioned PAMs make known to us all what is going on that they find so disturbing. Reading the new Mishler interview on EPO was a bit of shock even for me. Mike Dettmers had told me that he had quite regularly had to carry the over-inebriate Lord to bed, (over a period of about 15-20 years or so I think he said- I still find that hard to believe) but I think even so I had kind of subconsciously thought he may have been exaggerating a bit! Anyway lo and behold if old Mischler had the same experience apparently. How can someone who is so screwed up to resort daily to excessive alcohol consumption be trusted as a Master? That's what I'd like to know. The premie answer is simply 'Well, the people who report this are lying'. It's surely getting harder to deny all these reports though isn't it? And of course there is the very distinct lack of any actual refutal from the M camp. The sense of betrayal comes from realising that this stuff was so consciously hidden from us. I really wonder how much of Maharaji's authoritative ranting we would have taken seriously back then if we had known that he was most likely 'half cut'. The one thing that impressed me when I met and talked with Mike Dettmers about all this was how absolutely clear he was that Maharaji was an utterly contemptible fraud. I felt like saying - 'oh, but he's not all bad you know'. I felt in a way that he (and Mischler) were lucky to have witnessed at first hand all the drunken, abusive behaviour etc. because they probably never took Maharaji seriously as a result. Many of us , on the other hand, have mostly only the stage-persona to go on and have formed very strong ideas of M as being a very 'Good' person - in fact the ultimate in Goodness really- and we trusted him implicitly and above all others. It's an extremely hard habit to break as we can now appreciate. These PAMs have a lot of power, (much more than us grunts) with their stories from the other side of the tracks, to shatter premies comfortable concepts about the person their Master really was and is. My experience is that most current premies still don't really believe the reports, just as I was reluctant to do. Like Cohen says in the interview below, the deep bond that people form with Maharaji from their personal experiences becomes the very thing that makes them overlook corrupt things their Guru is doing and then ...they too become corrupt in a way. Incidently, even a local well-known co-ordinator admitted to me that probably half of what Mike Dettmers reported was true and he mentioned that Maharaji was indeed supplied with Cognac and Marlboroughs wherever he went. I told him that my current feeling, in the light of the effective cover-up perpetuated by Maharaji and PAMS was that by comparison, Mike's every word rung true with crystal clarity . Here's the excerpt from Cohen's dialogue.... Spiritual Slavery and the Prostitution of the Soul A Dialogue with Andrew Cohen Question: I'm very confused about this matter of ethical conduct and its relationship to the enlightened understanding that you speak so much about. Why is it that so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same weaknesses as ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as people who did not claim to be enlightened. Andrew Cohen: Maybe in the cases that you are speaking about, the ego didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a fully intact ego coexisting with a profound realization. Most people don't realize that ego and profound realization can coexist. It is for that reason that so many people have gotten into trouble. Q: But I don't understand how, even after the failings of the guru have become obvious, people will still allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They often will continue to be followers in the face of unethical behavior, and in some cases even gross abuse. A: Often when a person meets a teacher in whom the Absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree, their heart will open up unexpectedly. They may experience unusual insight and understanding just through mere association with this kind of extraordinary individual. After this kind of experience it is easy to understand how one may get very attached to that individual. The bond that is formed through experiences like these runs very deep. Slowly without even realizing it, in order to protect the love and beauty of that precious event, the person starts to be willing to overlook things. The minute that begins, they become corrupt themselves. Q: Is that when they start to rationalize? A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. When you try to talk to the disciples of these gurus about simple virtues, they often are unable to make any sense. Also, they will frequently say things like, 'Ethical conduct and enlightenment have nothing to do with each other,' in an attempt to justify the confusing behavior of their guru. The minute anybody allows themselves to tolerate corruption they become a part of it. These people desperately don't want to see the depth of the corruption that they themselves are immersed in. The security of their spiritual well-being depends on the fact that no matter what, the actions of the guru are never questioned. Because their hearts are so invested in the guru, they will make almost any rationalization or justification for the guru's actions. They will do almost anything in order to protect that love that the guru has revealed to them. This is spiritual slavery and prostitution of the soul. In weak-minded people the seal of enlightenment becomes a license for abuse. Q: How is it then with the matter of trust? Does one ultimately only surrender to one's own knowing of the truth? A: Yes. Q: Then not to the guru? A: Ultimately the guru and your knowing of truth should be one and the same. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, there's something wrong. That means there is either something wrong in your idea of what the truth is and your experience of what the truth is or there's some defect in the guru. Ideally they should be perfectly synonymous. Q: But shouldn't surrender be to truth alone? A: But in a sense that's all people surrender to anyway. They surrender to their own experience. If you go to a teacher and you have a powerful experience, it's that experience that you surrender to. What usually happens next though, is that you get involved with the personality of the teacher. Powerful experience makes you hungry for more. That's why people get more involved. They want to get to know who this guru is. They fall in love and then want to be more intimate. Then they get involved with the personality of the teacher. At that point it's no longer just a spiritual experience; they begin to get involved with a human personality. That's when the trouble starts. If there's any trouble that could start, that's when it's going to begin. When the personality of the guru and the love and beauty that the guru revealed begin to conflict with each other, that means something is wrong. As I said before, people are weak, weak-minded, and if someone is truly enlightened, they will have a very powerful mind and be very charismatic. People are easily overwhelmed by that. Because their heart has been awakened, because they have been deeply touched by something, they often don't care about anything else. And in order to protect that experience, they will often tolerate just about anything. This is dangerous. This is a corrupt condition that a great deal of the spiritual world is in these days. If the guru is corrupt and you're intimately involved with the guru, you can't help but be corrupt yourself. It's unavoidable. By association it's an automatic result. It's a very delicate business. Q: So how does one discern? To what degree do I question my own perception and trust? A: Just go by the basics. There are some very basic, ethical laws that anybody who's not insane knows. They are not esoteric. Q: So where do you draw the line? A: The line is drawn where suffering is caused to other people due to selfish actions that stem from ignorance. That's where you draw the line. [the science of the student teacher relationship]

Subject: Spot on, Mr Cohen! [nt] From: Neville To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:04:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: YES... VERY From: Loaf To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 22:59:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just feeling before, how Knowledge and M have created a 'bubble' in which I have become a 'tin-pot dictator'.. all 'Heart' and priority of MY FEELINGS and no compromise. A very subjective world in which a person does get drunk indeed on their own importance, or rather the importance which they syphon off maharaji. Andrew hit many nails on their heads when he said : A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. IF I was being recreated in maharaji's image... (which I believe I was.. subtly...as his apparant priorities fed into me and became my own) - then who is going to teach him how to behave ? NOBODY Who os going to remind him that he has an EGO and a personality and his behaviour is out of order ? Nobody Why ? Because he wouldnt allow himself to be challenged. Sounds familiar ? Yep it sounds like premies. It also is a really bad habit to get into and a tough and humbling one to break.

Subject: Re: YES... VERY From: Nobody To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:51:31 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I don't normally post here, but I have to say this. I recently told M that he does have an ego and a personality and that his behavior was a few times unreasonable as far as I could see. I was in no way afraid to convey this and he took it quite nicely. Meditations are useful and very refreshing. Good luck to you all. Premie Nobody None

Subject: Re: YES... VERY From: P W To: Nobody Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:11:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't normally post here, but I have to say this. I recently told M that he does have an ego and a personality and that his behavior was a few times unreasonable as far as I could see. I was in no way afraid to convey this and he took it quite nicely. Meditations are useful and very refreshing. Good luck to you all. Premie Nobody None Hi PNN, I am not surprised in the least by your report. The idea that Maharaji doesn't have an ego and a personality is of course totally indefensible (and went out with the Stone Age didn't it?) and no doubt Maharaji couldn't give two hoots whether you think his behavior is 'a few times unreasonable' since he probably doesn't value your opinion anyway. Do you honestly think otherwise?? Well done for speaking your mind though. Of course he would have reacted differently if you actually took steps to make him see the error of his ways in a more insistent manner or pointed out how incredibly manipulatative and hypocritical of him it was to for years berate everybody else for their personalities and egos. If you tried to stop him from doing anything he wanted to do that you deemed unreasonable, my guess is that your involvement with him would be history. I'm sure you'll agree. So your relationship with him could be likened to that of a mere servant to a powerful man who has no need to consider the somewhat impotent 'excuse-me-Sir-but-that-was-a -bit-unreasonable' complaints of one of his utterly dispensible servants. You see, I don't think the fact that Maharaji took your criticism 'quite nicely' says anything about his appreciation or acceptance of whatever misbehaviour you were referring to, because he has manifestly got himself, over the years, into a position where he really doesn't need to consider criticism so one would expect him to just ignore people or politely listen at best. He is rich beyond measure and surrounded largely by 'Yes men' by his own design. The day he turns around and apologises I will be more impressed that the criticisms of the likes of yourself are having some effect. I hope you don't flatter yourself that your being prepared to criticise Maharaji says anything positive about the health of your relationship with him. I detect some tentativeness about the incident. Whilst premies may see faults , as Cohen says, many are nevertheless prepared broadly to tolerate them- in effect adding endorsement to his unreasonable behaviour . Do you think that Maharaji has shown by his lifestyle and behaviour that he is somehow more capable of having Ego, and Personality and behaving unreasonably than you or I, by the way? My current feeling is that your criticism was also really a bit of an understatement because, rather than being just 'a few times unreasonable' I would say that he has behaved very duplicitously for a protracted and lengthy period as is demonstrated by the fact that he clearly did not practice what he preached... we were quite clearly ordered to avoid sex, drugs, drink , possessions - the 'World' in short, whilst he indulged, courted and is evidently still enchanted by the latter to the hilt. Yes, I find 'meditations useful and refreshing' too - but I did not need to surrender my life to bossy boots to realise that did I?! The Great Master has been treated so obsequiously for years by PAMs that he has no doubt been given plenty of rope with which to 'hang himself' as it were, by getting a bit too into the role of treating people like the slaves they desperately aspire to be. There has always been a sort of Sado Masochistic side to the whole thing. A symbiosis of Abusive Master and willing slaves crying 'beat my ego Oh Lord'. The funny thing is that Maharaji has really played the part so brilliantly that he himself seems to have transmogrified from the sweet little boy Guru into the archetypal almost Mafiosa style materialistic, amoral Big Boss figure we see today. Are you trying to tell us that we can expect a change??? Pray elaborate.

Subject: Excellent response,PW.. From: Jim S. To: P W Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your repsonse was excellent, not only because it hit on so many pertinent points, but also because it illuminated the premie response of 'Oh, we've already covered that one...there's really nothing to think about concerning that...' When premies read somethig confronting to their relationship-myth with maharaji like the Andrew Cohen piece, they many times have a quick response like the one above, and then move on to the premie position of non-thinking or evaluating and placing the 'connection' and the 'experience' above all else, to remove themselves from the shakier ground of reason, ethics, common sense, questioning etc... Your response showed how shallow the PNN response was. I'd like to wager that you get no real respose of any depth from PNN...fairly typical for the 'hit and run' premies who wander through from time to time.. The other interesting thing is the 'Andrew Cohen' phenomenon...he is currently on the cover of his own magazine 'What is Enlightenment', with Ken Wilber, a fairly serious Buddhist thinker ad writer/lecturer. Wilber, BTW, has some great challenges to Bubba Free John, who in some ways has some great similarities to maharaji, and has now retreated to Fiji, to be adored by very wierd submissive devotees, mostly female.... Wilber challenges BFJ, if he is the messiah he claims to be, to come out into the world of people and ideas and engage in real dialogue and debate about his work, if he is serious about helping the world....like maharaji, BFJ has stadfastly refused over and over again, showing himself to be quite insecure abou something or other.... However, back to the 'AC' point.... Isn't it interesting how a guru like AC can be so clear about some point (in this case, corruption of the guru and disciple) and make so much sense, all the time personally violating every bit of that good, ethical sense he was elaborating on? Isn't AC doing just what he is railing against? In this case, using his personal charisma to hide from the fact that he is engaging in the very same lack of ethics that he talks about gurus commonly having? But it seems to be (in AC's mind) that if he talks about it as if he is above it all, then he IS above it all... Doesn't this sound just like maharaji? All of his rants about the 'world' not bringing happiness, and all the time volating his own philosophy....(it wasn't until I heard the Mischler and Dettmers interviews about his obsession with wealth and toys, while I thought he was always thinking about propagaton, coupled with his driking and philandering and abusive behaviors,that it really sunk in...) Eventually, the insulated and unchallenged world he lives in becomes part of his undoing....if premies were allowed to challenge maharaji from the start, this mess never would have become what it is today, for premies or the guru... Nice post, PW...

Subject: Only in the 'premie/new age' world... From: Jim S. To: Jim S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:27:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's only in the 'premie/new age' world, that I cme across the notion that you can be a teacher of something or other, but you DON'T necessarily have to be living it to teach it.... I have always had the common sense belief that in order to be considered a teacher, you had to be living,not just talking, the teaching...'walk the talk', 'practice what you preach' etc.... But in the 'premie/new age world I have come across so many charlatans who are so hypocriical, and the apologist response I always get is something like...'He's a messenger-he may not be totally living the message, but he's a messnger for the message, and he's just conveying that to you-he doesn't necessarily have to be living it....don't get into the man, just listen to the message...' In maharaji's case,I wonder how many days he has practiced meditation, and for how long? How can he yell at premies for their lack of practice, when he wouldn't know what it was like to do it day after day? (And if he does practice every day, he should brag about THAT,not his latest acquisition...THAT would be inspiring...I wonder what his 'experience' would be?... What a load of bullshit....have other people encountered this stuff as well?....

Subject: Re: Only in the 'premie/new age' world... From: PatC To: Jim S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 11:32:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''...have other people encountered this stuff as well?....'' Of course. Why do you think I detest all that New Age BS so much? I just can't stand all that ''rubber language'' (thanks Jim H for that phrase) which to me leads to rubber morals. ''Do you own thing, man.'' Absolutely infantile.

Subject: Barry Long From: Livia To: Jim S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:05:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did anyone ever come across a guru called Barry Long? He's Australian and is into helping women integrate the spiritual into their sexuality(yes, really!). A neighbour of mine used to be really into him and even went to see him in Oz. He puts himself across as very pure and spiritual etc etc - she's shown me the books. Anyway it now turns out he was shagging loads of his devotees. It makes you weary just hearing about it all. Livia

Subject: Re: Barry Long - oh HIM! From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 15:14:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He is one of the ONLY guru-types that I've been to see in the last 15 years. He was so condescending and abusive to his audience (according to my MJ-honed sensitivites) that I walked out after a quick comment, despite sitting in the front row. I absolutely couldn't BELIEVE that the place was full of people who were buying this level of condescension. Actually they weren't just buying it, but lapping it up. Sound familiar? I guess you just fill your quota when you fill your quota and after that it gags you immediately. I have a good friend who is an ex of Andrew Cohen and other gurus. He still goes and listens to spiritual teachers, and gives me the reports. Some are okay and some are playing on people's tendency to give power away to a condescending abuser. One of the latter types went through town the other day. Apparently he was so rude to a woman in the audience in the course of giving her the Advaitan processing that the whole audience was holding its breath. My friend told me that later he thought of the perfect thing to say to this guy (the way one always thinks of such ripostes after the fact). I loved it because it would be such a great group response to Lardie. This was his fantasy: imagine doing this at a program where MJ is yelling at people: 'Now you are being verbally abusive beyond what we consider ok in our community. So we're going to let you have a 'time-out' (an American way of kindly disciplining children for all you non -yanks). ' Then, in my friend's fantasy, the entire audience leaves the building, leaving the guru to sit and ponder what he did or said that was out of line. I loved this story. Imagine the whole Miami Beach Convention Center shouting 'time out Maharaji' and just walking out. Anyway.... I'm outa here to get back to work. This forum has become a distraction again, and I love you all.

Subject: Re: Barry Long From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh another self-apointed guru - there must be thousands. Here's a quote from Barry Long You are the eternal contradiction. Since before conception you are the sexual craving of immortal life itself, you are the paradox of life craving for life and death at the same time: immortality craving for a fleshly form of life that will inevitably die Wonder what sort of weed he was on when he said that? If I really need a Guru I think I will follow Donald Duck - that duck is pure inspiration :) quack quack Thorin

Subject: Re: Donald Duck From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:04:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw Donald Duck and Micky Mouse in my meditation once (I kid you not - they were in the middle of a stunning mandala-like pattern), (don't ask) so maybe you're onto something there, Thorin! Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Donald Duck From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:28:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia I just gave up on Donald - he really quacks too much. My spiritual leader is now Mr Magoo. Now there is a guy that is far sighted (err I think I mean near sighted!) Love and all that, Thorin www.toontracker.com/magoo/magoo-1.gif

Subject: Mr Magoo is indeed far-sighted From: gerry the pedant To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 08:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whenever you see big rheumy eyes looking out of thick glasses, that means they are 'plus' lenses.

Subject: Re: Barry Long From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 12:16:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Barry Long (for those that need him) www.originaltantra.com/NewFiles/frsite.html

Subject: Re: Barry Long From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:10:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of curiousity (and purely for research purposes)(of course) I borrowed my friend's Barry Long books recently. They're full of question and answer sessions where women say 'Barry I'm having a problem - I think I'm falling in love with you!' Barry's answer to this is stuff like 'Don't worry about it! It's fine! It's the opening up of your tantric self for I am blahblahblah' And now it turns out that he turned round and shagged these poor women. God knows what happened to their heads in the end. But then I suppose they should have guessed what he was really up to. Livia

Subject: Re: Barry Long From: Bolly Shri To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:44:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They should have seen it coming! Sorry couldn't resist the pun

Subject: Oh Bless him From: Loaf To: Nobody Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:35:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lets hope he is not afraid to address his faults as publicly as his virtues

Subject: To Pat W. From: Disculta To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:38:01 (PDT) Email Address: With. Message: Ahem, yes - thanks for pointing out that a guru that has to be carried to bed many many times blind drunk over 10-15 years might be of dubious spiritual value as a guide! I had read the accounts by Mike Dettmers, and then by Bob Mishler, but it was only actually reading your post, Pat, that I put together how COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS this is. I think we should have a real simulated photo of someone carrying the drunkern Lard to bed, and have it at the opening of this forum. Any of you up for this? I guess this really p's me off! I left in 1984 because he was a verbally abusive idjit. It wasn't easy leaving. If this information had been available I woulda left earlier, or more easily. I think it's important information to put forth. It's also really interesting to read Pat's emphasis on the fact that Dettmers doesn't think MJ had any redeeming features. So many partial exes think he does. I met someone last night who has been out for years, but went last year to see him and said it was 'nice.' Snarl!

Subject: WOW! A 'simply must read'!!! [nt] From: Livia To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:18:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick wie.org indeed? I see our old friend Andrew Cohen continues with his usual revised self. It is a bit rich that Andrew speaks about ethics when .... From an ex-follower of Andrew Cohen about the Andrew Cohen organisation and on Andrew Cohen (on Steve Hassan's site) Deception and spying and holding out information is the norm. The group doesn't like lots of questions about the running of the place, especially about where all the money goes from the millionaire he has who give him so much of their money, plus the rest of the group which gives whatever they have to the point of bankruptcy and destitution. He asks for absolute control of his adherents. And each one controls the other through a series of informants. Every knows they have to watch what they say because everything goes back to Andrew. That's the way the people get points with Andrew, by gossiping and ratting on each other. Did you check out his main site at www.andrewcohen.org? Also, were you aware that Andrew's own mother, after following him as a Guru for a while, disowned him and felt sore enough to even write a book. She has a site called www.themotherofgod.com So, all in all, I personally will be giving Andrew a wide bearth. IMO what he says is simply a hook to draw apparently rational people into his web. So yes 'interesting stuff' but eminently forgetable. More interesting is the 'big US PAM' you mentioned. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:24:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fair enough, Thorin, but forget about the man in this case - what he said there was actually very pertinent. Obviously if you're going to follow the guy as a guru, a close look at him is essential! But though he's far from perfect, the interview contained an extremely interesting analysis of what can happen to a person's integrity when they devote themself to a master whose own integrity is open to question. Don't you think? (It was great talking to you earlier, by the way!) Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:32:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv Online again at the same time I see! Yeah I agree with the central analysis re following someone who's integrity is open to question. Lots of experience in that department! Some of the stuff that Andrew has put out in the past seems credible but he does sort of seem to have some sort of 'divinity complex' so I am simply very alert to anything he may venture. I guess I will just have to go back and read T.S. Elliot to get inspiration. I think I have had enough of Gurus to last a thousand lifetimes. Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:25:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Thorin. Yes, I was kind of naively not realising that Andrew Cohen, as a 'guru' himself, was describing the inadequate guru as a way of leading people to himself, the presumably totally adequate guru (not!!!). But if you can ignore the probable agenda, it was a good analysis of what can happen in the guru/disciple relationship. Yes I think I've had enough of gurus to last a lifetime too and I'm certainly not looking for another one thank you very much! Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:49:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Liv Yes, definitly ignoring Andrew's agenda the analysis that Andrew gives is a good one. The toxicity of the guru-devotee relationship is a subject that I find increasingly interesting. With the passage of time I find that I can view this dispassionately. I posed some questions to Disculta below on this subject. Welcome you or anyone jumping in as well. PatW, elsewhere in this thread, mentions the sadomasochistic tendancy that arises in such relationships. Definitly. At the end of the day it is the devotees that gives Gurus their power and it is with the well practised bait-and-switch tactics that Guru's enhance this power. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:09:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spot on, Thorin (online simultaneously again!) I noted the sado-masochistic reference too and thought 'hmmm!' Back to the psychoanalytic sphere - what differentiates a devotee type from other people? Could there have been something common in our psyches that led us to this? And if so, and if it's upbringing related, what is it exactly? Do a lot of us share an authoritarian parent figure who we broke away from but then felt (and acted on) a subconscious need to replace? Bearing in mind that not all premies were primarily devotees, of course. As Mike Finch once pointed out, people were drawn to M and K for all sorts of reasons, ranging from the mystical to the social to the idealistic to the gopi. And some were drawn for a combination of reasons. But I wonder if those that are left are tied in mainly because of their (unexamined) gopi-type psychology? Which in turn would make it impossible, or very difficult for them to see Maharaji objectively, so strong is their need to project? Discuss! Love, Liv

Subject: Re: Interesting stuff? From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 14:01:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could there have been something common in our psyches that led us to this? Most people have the religious instinct,ours was captured,in what amounts to a criminal conspiracy,by Rawat. Those who don't have it are fewer but more interesting. They live by their own will(consciously)& can be frightening. In conversation with one of those a long time ago(an ex professional soldier)who was trying,unsuccessfully,to get into Croatia,I asked him why he wanted to go there. He said that if you knew what you were doing & kept your nerve,stay 2 miles ahead of the advancing army(on Vukovar)you could clean up,set yourself up for life. 'You've no idea the shit people leave behind,all those jewelry shops,banks etc,all those people never thought the shit would hit the fan,so when it did they just grabbed the nearest things & ran'. He then said that if he'd had his time over again he'd've started a religion. Less stress. This is a guy who was a good friend to me when the shit hit the fan,a guy I'd trust with my life,a man of integrity who refused to listen to bullshit,& always put the interests of the people he was paid to look after before the interests of his employers. Anyway, I suppose all I want to say is that some people are suckers & some aren't. Pretty banal really.

Subject: extra question marks not intended [nt] From: PatD To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 14:12:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thank god I've got a virus detector From: Jim To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:12:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patrick, I absolutely love and respect you and have enjoyed pretty well every post you've ever made over the many years we've been here now. This one is no exception with respect to all you say about Maharaji and the PAMs. I'm happy to hear that The Cult Leaders Magazine served as Cult Leavers Magazine for that one PAM and I, too, hope he or she does the right thing by us. I agree with you and others that there IS a right thing to do. But that Cohen stuff is complete garbage. It's like me complaining that my adult brother still believes in all the D.C. comic super heroes and Cohen is going to explain that that's silly because everyone knows that the only real super heroes worth anything at all are Marvel. Really, did you actually read that shit? It's Andrew Cohen's How to Tell a Real Unicorn in a World of Fakes shtick and, frankly, it's as stupid and toxic as the original material, maybe even more so because of the insidious way he's poised to show you how to find a 'real' guru, not a fake one. Yeah, right!

Subject: Right on, Jim, it's dreadful! From: Francesca To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 15:04:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was buried in that crock of nonsense: Q: How is it then with the matter of trust? Does one ultimately only surrender to one's own knowing of the truth? A: Yes. Q: Then not to the guru? A: Ultimately the guru and your knowing of truth should be one and the same. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, there's something wrong. That means there is either something wrong in your idea of what the truth is and your experience of what the truth is or there's some defect in the guru. Ideally they should be perfectly synonymous. Sounds like Rawat, only better formed sentences.

Subject: I must be psychic :C) From: PatC To: Francesca Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 16:38:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking about how much I miss your posts. Or maybe we were separated at birth? :P

Subject: Jim, you read things too thoroughly From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 23:10:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: try my technique... it will save you hours in lawyering.. Skim anything you are reading really quickly, take almost nothing in... just let the bits you like jump out at you... if you see a good bit, dont bother to read any further, but RUN LIKE FUCK to the Satsang chair and start pontificating really fast before you forget what it was you were on about. And there was me thinking I didnt have anything to teach you !

Subject: LOL -- and I'm not even awake yet!! [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:39:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You're so damn funny, Loaf From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ........and deliciously honest and unprepossessing.

Subject: I need my dictionary [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:36:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Means you don't puff yourself up [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 18:43:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I would... but I cant reach ! [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 22:22:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Would that be still be gay though? [nt] From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 13:19:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: it would make me very very BENT [nt] From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 03:31:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Well, I've got this special yoga I can sell you :P [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 00:50:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: puffed up From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 03:39:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I've got this really cool beragon with an air line adaptor ..(useful for decrudding earholes, but don't try this at home kids..) just hook it up to any proprietory enema kit, and whoosh.. michelinmananand! ;~) ;~)

Subject: Puffed up?Because he can't From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 13:05:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This title to my post is the answer to the question: 'Why DOESN'T a man lick his....' You know - the thing about dogs, why do they do it? - because they can... Oh well, forget it, okay?

Subject: Re: Thank god I've got a virus detector From: PW To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:41:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Thorin et al, I take all your points about Cohen and agree. I'd never heard of this guy until tonight and, frankly, I took one look at his photo on that site and that was enough - He loves himself way too much doesn't he? Also all those people sitting around smiling sublimely in his direction was a most distressing sight. His mum's site was very interesting too...thanks for the link Thorin. (your nom de plume sounds very Nordic..what was that Viking joke? Oh yes 'As horny as a Viking hat shop').

Subject: Even Cohen's mom knows he's a fraud From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:14:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She wrote a book entitled Mother of God. Cohen's own mother exposes what a greedy egotistical power hungry little shit this guy Andrew Cohen really is. Even his mom is pissed at him for his own heavy handed guru shit. And she fell into his orbit herself for a while. So you might say she's and 'ex.' No more spirituality for me thanks. The Mother of God, by Luna Tarlo, relates the story of the author's three-and-a half years of harrowing spiritual bondage to her own son, Andrew Cohen, a well-known American guru. The book describes her travels in India, Europe, and the United States with Andrew and his earliest disciples, and reveals in stunnding detail her parallel inner journey from loving observer, to slave-like disciple, to a final wrenching asserion of autonomy. This book will be of interest to anyone concerned with the preservation of human dignity in the face of constant manipulation by the various "powers to be." It will be of particular interest to every individual who has ever been harmed by the influence of a guru and also to those individuals' greatly distressed families. The abuse of power, the incessant fear, the psychology of obsession are all explored from an intimate perspective. Since brainwashing cults and their grandiose gurus are proliferating in this country and around the world, this book is not only a mother's lament, but also a finger pointing to the growing appeal everywhere of authoritarianism and absolutism. And then there's this: About the Author Luna Tarlo, a native of Montreal, Canada, graduated from The University of Michigan where she majored in English Literature. She married and had two children and while rearing them wrote three novels, Morning Sickness, An Arid Land, An Arid Zone and Coming to Earth, in addition to several stage plays and short stories. She has just completed a screenplay for Stanley Chase Productions in Hollywood. In December 1985 Ms. Tarlo went to India to visit her thirty-year-old son Andrew, now a guru with followers all over the world. He had left for India two years earlier to seek "enlightenment" but had not yet found what he was looking for. Four months after her return to the United States she received a telephone call -- It was Andrew. "Come back to india," he said, "interesting things are happening." She boarded the first available flight and returned to India. There she found a very different person than she had left four months ago -- oddly removed, supremely confident and imbued with the conviction that he could "enlighten" others. She also found a small group already devoted to him and subsequently travelled with them from India to Europe to the United States. She was enthralled at first, but soon suspected that her son was the leader of a cult. His absolute claim to power, his grandiosity and inability to tolerate criticism shocked her. Fearful that criticism of this behavior would create an unendurable rupture between them, she kept silent. But aware of her suppressed opposition, her son, with whom she had previously shared a warm loving relationship, became increasingly cruel. During the three-and-a-half years she spent as his disciple a terrible tension grew between them. Eventually his public condemnation and humiliation of her became so ruthless that in 1991 she could bear it no longer and broke away knowing that she would probably never see him again. Ms. Tarlo is presently living and working in New York City. Contact Luna Tarlo at lunat@erols.com

Subject: Re: Even Cohen's mom knows he's a fraud From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 05:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I completely mad here or do I remember once hearing that this Andrew Cohen was once a premie? It just rings a distant bell. Does a distant bell ring here with anyone else? Livia

Subject: Yes, Cohen was a premie [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 11:36:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Blimey! Or maybe not blimey From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:29:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More stirrings of a distant memory - was he a premie in Devon, England, with a wife, and they were sort of gurus together until they split up? Dammit I think I can even picture the guy now. I wonder how he went from being a premie to a guru in his own right? Does he teach people to meditate via the same techniques, or something?

Subject: not blimey From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:06:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never knew him, Liv. Somewhere buried in the archives of F5 is his story. Actually cruising through all 5,920,000 ''spiritual'' sites (yeah right :P) yesterday I discovered that there are quite a few former premies who are now mini-gurus. Seriously. Why, even I am going to include the techs in my science of mind classes now that I know they really are not the unltimate secret to the universe but good for relaxation and mental health.

Subject: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Disculta To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:32:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Mother of God' by Luna Tarlo, Andrew Cohen's mother, is a fantastic book! I just read it recently! One thing that sticks out in my mind is that Andrew tried to get her to destroy all her writing (she was already a published author) to get her to prove her one-pointed devotion to him. Ethical my foot! My ex-husband used to work in a clothing store near here where Andrew's devotees used to go to buy him the expensive clothes he favored (sound familiar?). He used to come to the store a few days later and try to exchange the clothes for cash. My ex's fellow salesmen absolutely despised the man. They knew nothing about cults but I remember hearing that one of them said he could feel how much Andrew despised his followers. I HIGHLY recommend this book 'Mother of God' to everyone, as it has delightful cringelicious similarities to the obsessive experience many of us went through, as well as the subtle abuses. love Katie Darling

Subject: Re: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Thorin To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:12:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Disculta We spoke about Andrew Cohen before, the post from PatW got me thinking again about all this Guru vs. leadership stuff. It is incredible really that someone like Andrew can come along and spout all that stuff and, at first blush, it all seems innocuous and credible. In fact I venture that the same goes for what Maharaji spouts. What is it that allows normal rational people to follow humans like Cohen or Rawat? How are we to distinguish between Gurus who place themselves 'above' others and leaders who simply have realised the ordinariness of human nature and able to show others? On the one hand the Guru dynamic creates a toxic co-depenadancy relationship that is ulimately unfilling whearas leaders based solely on meritocracy leads to positive outcomes. How does one measure merit? For me it is easy to measure Gurujism, the measure is a negative yardstick, simply by looking at the man behind the words, the man behind the throne. For Guru's such as Rawat and Cohen this is easy, the disclosure by PAMs and others facilitates this. However I remain perplexed how one measures leaders in the positive. As Livia says below the rightful owner of your throne is your own instinct, your own intuition, your own realisation and your own wisdom, which no one can plant and no one can take away from you. We just have to learn to trust in ourselves, and ultimately our selves alone. Ulimately, of course, the measure is ones own intuition, one's own built in 'bullshit detector' - but why oh why do we readily abdicate these personal responsibilities? Is it simply just laziness and tiredness? Love, Thorin

Subject: Re: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Disculta To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 22:29:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Thorin, These are interesting questions, and I have just read the new post you put up. It does seem to me to be a social virus, as the Guru Papers guys call it, and Thurman also implies, to find a father figure (and sometimes a mother figure, who is often a patriach in drag) to give one's power away to. I love the new book by Ptolemy Tomkins called The Beaten Path in which he talks about the phenomenon of the 'adult unlike other adults' and the incredible need for one. Is it just laziness and tiredness, you ask? I think it's that and also deeper than that. I think there is an inherent loss of connection to our inner knowing that happens in our culture, and is compensated for - or taken advantage of by - gurus and others who seem to be somehow different and not human. It's so great to be exploring our humanity. love Disculta

Subject: Re: Yes, 'Mother of God'... CRINGELICIOUS! From: Thorin To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 11:43:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Katie Thanks for that - most interesting. Social virus yes but why does society have such a dynamic that allows for that. The analogy of evolution is apt. What we seem to see here with this dynamic is not the survival of the strongest but rather the survival of the weakest. But perhaps not? History shows that it are those that are able to live on their own dynamic, rather than the prevailing consensus are the survivors. The greats have left their indelible mark whearas the weak are lost in the mists of time. Re Ptolemy Tomkins - sheesh you do read the most obscure stuff. All I could find is some reference to Tomkins is when he was 16, in 1978, and decided to have all his hair shaved off! He recounted this story to indicate the experience of the 'me' falling away - like the falling away of onion rings. Hmmm sounds like simply a nice meditation - nothing more. Catch you later, hope you are well? I will make the call soon, promise. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: a patriach in drag... From: gerry To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 08:06:26 (PDT) Email Address: gkl1@techline.com Message: I got a chuckle out of that one, Katie. How are you doin'?

Subject: Re: a patriach in drag... From: Disculta To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 13:02:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doing better than can be expected actually! Me too - I got a chuckle out of it when I heard Andrew Harvey say it some years back. I think it explains a lot for followers of female gurus, who are generally STILL not into the body and feelings and normal human stuff. Keep up the good work Ger, love ktd

Subject: Re: Perfect Mistresses From: Livia To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 01:20:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are two female gurus around that I've heard of - one of them just hugs people and nothing else apparently. Someone I know (female) went all the way to India just for a hug from this woman, and came back saying it had been worth it. She doesn't see her need in psychological terms, though, only 'spiritual' and there's not much point in trying to communicate this to her as she's unable to see it. All very strange, the more you think about it. Livia

Subject: Re: Perfect Mattresses!(nt) From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 15:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Meeting Andrew From: Babs To: Disculta Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:02:12 (PDT) Email Address: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com Message: Back in the early nineties - long after I left Maharaji's cult - my husband and I became interested in the ideas of E.J.Gold. We joined a group in Boulder called the Crazy Horse Study Group which read and discussed E.J.'s books and attempted a number of experiments and exercises designed to jolt one's awareness into an altered state. The people in the group were all quite intelligent and sincere and, even more important, had senses of humor. Sometimes we even went on 'field trips' to amusement parks, restaurants, and museums. One of the group members heard there was a 'new guru' in town, and so one night we all went to hear Andrew Cohen give satsang. Boy, howdy, talk about a button-pusher! He sat in a fancy chair on a raised platform surrounded with flowers, and the devotees sat cross-legged on the floor. He droned on for what seemed like hours, and I had a really hard time not screaming and running out of the room. He sounded just like Maharaji. Just like. A beautiful young woman in our study group had the opposite reaction, however. She was immediately attracted to Andrew and has spent the last ten years at his feet. She is now in the process of exiting his cult, with all the accompanying grief we know so well. I gave her the link to this site in hopes it will be of some benefit to her to know she is not alone, and yes, there is life after devoteedom.

Subject: Good to read you again, Babs From: PatC To: Babs Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:46:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are fit as fiddle and ready for love as Shakespeare said in Kiss Me Kate. :C)

Subject: To the Big US PAM From: JHB To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:10:43 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: As Mishler said so many years ago, '.... even though I had left I was still in a way covering up for it just by the absence of ever having spoken out .....' Post here, or email me to discuss how best to tell your story. John.

Subject: Atheism out, Lord have mercy! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:17:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said, I'm too scared for words. I'm too scared for words www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/news5.html

Subject: I think that's an ultra scan of... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...never mind, she's too old!

Subject: Premies praise Scientologists From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:32:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia posted this on Symp: This is another link posted by Mili. If you scroll all the way down it's sponsored by the Scientologists! When Lou objected to the link based on it's creation by the Scientologists, Mili said he thought it was still credible. http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/false_exp/patrick1.html Chuck replied: Such irony! Premies using the same cult apologists as Scientology, apologists who argue in favor of cults on the grounds of religious freedom. Knowledge, which we were always told was NOT a relgion, being defended as a religion, because it sounds better than a cult! Premies take comfort from the fact that Maharaji's cult is very different in many respects, from crazy cults like Jim Jones. But Jones' cult was a FAILURE. He and most of his followers died! Maharaji is running his cult on much more successful role models, like Scientology. The Scientology apologists even appeal to premies like Mili. The premies have stopped asking questions for so long, that they seem to have no trouble with the revisionism of Knowledge now being a religion after all. They embrace these arguments despite the fact that Maharaji is still continuing to insist that his Knowledge is not a religion. The interesting thing is, when I first began to study the Indian Background, it became pretty apparent that in India, Knowledge IS a religion. Even though I was shocked, because I had always been told it was not a religion, I still took some comfort that it came from a religion or religious tradition, because it seemed less disturbing than believing I was part of a cult. So to that extent, I can understand premies embracing the arguement that Knowedge is a religion. But as I studied more, it was also apparent that religions and cults overlap, especially in India, where 'cult' is not a dirty word; many of the Rhadasomi's proudly describe themselves as a cult, even as 'India's fastest growing cult, a cult of Love'. When you study the differences between what the religious cults in India are doing, and what Maharaji is doing, it's very apparent that Maharaji has taken much of the religious aspects out of his schtick, while leaving and cultivating the bhakti cult aspects. For me, acknowledging Knowedge as a Bhakti Guru Religion was a stepping stone, to: a.) Admitting that I'd been lied to about Knowledge not being a religion; it clearly came from a religous tradition, and: b.) Seeing how Maharaji had watered down that religion, while preserving the bhakti-cult aspects for self serving reasons. Some of the biggest differences: In India, gurus often live in the communities they serve, and are accessible to their devotees. They perform weddings, give advice, help with local charities, etc. They are part of their community. The guru usually has a job, just like normal people. Many of them are postal workers! They don't live off the donations of their devotees. The Rhadasoamis don't believe in poverty conciousness, but they also frown on excessive wealth, believing it to be a sign of corruption. Honest Gurus, like Fakir Chand, teach that the Guru is no more divine than the devotee, and to teach otherwise is to mislead the devotee by teaching 'duality', usually for the purpose of increasing donations and making money. In India, the religious traditions to some extent provide certain standards, which when followed protect people by putting a brake on a guru's ability to exploit and abuse his followers. By eliminating much of the religion, Maharaji has freed himself up to create his own standards, without having to deal with any sort of religious morality. So for me, seeing Knowledge as being like a relgion, was actually a stepping stone, which helped me see how it was cult, using religion to make money. I'm just wondering how many other premies will find the Scientologist arguements comforting at first, but as a stepping stone out of the cult at a later date?

Subject: Postal Workers! From: Disculta To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 22:17:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'In India, gurus often live in the communities they serve, and are accessible to their devotees. They perform weddings, give advice, help with local charities, etc. They are part of their community. The guru usually has a job, just like normal people. Many of them are postal workers! They don't live off the donations of their devotees.' So there we have it! There is an honest future open to MJ after all! Many of us have wondered what MJ will do if he fesses up and comes clean and all that. It was suggested that he might become a pilot. But being a postal worker would be another possibility - with plenty of respectable precedent. As long as he doesn't get too angry!

Subject: It's TRUE. See the Perfect Postal Master... From: Chuck S. To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 14:38:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Selig Ram, one of the founders of the Rhadasoami Faith, was also India's first Indian Postmaster, as well at the Perfect Master. His biography makes for a facinating read, when you realize that this man was one of the founders of a religion that Maharaji and his father have borrowed heavily from. It's interesting to note that Seligram feared that others would take his teachings and corrupt them to create cults. At least I believe it was he who said that, it's been a while since I read the whole thing. Here it the biography, without the fancy graphics and pop-ups: Biography of Huzur Maharaj LIFE & MIRACLES Rai Saligram Bahadur, popularly known as Huzur Maharaj, was born in a kayastha family of Peepal Mandi, Agra, on 14 march 1829. His father, Bahadur Singh, a lawyer of repute, was a highly religious and generous man. He died early leaving behind his widow, two sons and a daughter. At that time, Rai Saligram was only four years old. His mother, a talented lady, had therefore to struggle hard against heavy odds to provide her sons with the best possible education. Throughout his academic career, Rai Saligram was a brilliant student. After completing his primary education in a maktab [Urdu school], he went to Agra College for higher studies. He passed the Senior Cambridge examination from this college in 1847 with distinction in Theology, English, Mathematics and Urdu. Subsequently he devoted himself to higher studies in Persian and Arabic. He also studied advanced books on religion, philosophy and astrology. He took great interest in learning Hindi and Sanskrit and within a short time acquired high proficiency in these languages. His ever-increasing thirst for knowledge knew no bounds. He really desired to reveal unto himself the secrets of absolute Truth. Driven by an inner urge to seek a perfect guru, he visited many holy places in the country where he met many religious teachers and saints. He came to the conclusion that many reputed religious leaders were themselves labouring under delusion, and that they were deluding their disciples. Nevertheless, on the insistence of his mother, he agreed to receive initiation from the family priest on the clear understanding that he would discard the priest and his teachings as soon as he had found a true and perfect guru. His first marriage was shortlived and his wife died after giving birth to a female child. He married again in 1852. His second wife was a talented lady and devoted to her husband. She gave birth to two daughters and three sons out of whom only one survived. He was appointed as a second clerk in the office of Postmaster General, North Western Provinces soon after he had finished his studies. since he proved to be an honest and efficient in the department, he got rapid promotions. First he was promoted to the office of inspector of post offices, and then head assistant and later personal assistant to the Postmaster General. In 1871, he was appointed chief inspector of post offices in India, and in 1881 as the Postmaster General of the North Western Provinces with headquarters at Allahabad. He was the first Indian to hold this coveted post. Being an administrator of outstanding ability, Rai Saligram introduced a number of new practices in the postal department, namely, land revenue money order scheme, insurance of parcels, value payable parcel [VPP], procedures regarding bearing letters, understamped articles and telegrams and the total amalgamation of the district postal arrangements for official letters with general postal department. He toned up the services in the department during the difficult period of its growth and development. By his extraordinary grasp of departmental working, he successfully dealt with complicated pending cases. He removed confusion and redtapism prevalent in the department. These schemes proved very useful and convenient for departmental work and immensely benefited the people. He also recommended the issue of one-pice post-card for the benefit of poor people. Further, he himself translated the rules and regulations of the postal department in the North Western Provinces and Punjab, into vernacular to acquaint the educated few with them. The government honoured him with the award of the title of Rai Bahadur in 1871, in appreciation of his meritorious services. For enforcing honesty and efficiency in the rank and file of the department, he strictly dealt with persons found guilty of embezzlement. He had become so indispensable to the postal department that no scheme would go on paper without his prior consultation. The British authorities felt so much beholden to him for his outstanding contributions that they did not want him to retire early when he expressed such a desire in 1884. The Director-General personally requested him in a letter not to press for his retirement. However, when he insisted he was relieved of his duties in 1887. In a personal letter, the Director-General paid glowing tributes to him for his efficient work. Worldly achievements, howsoever great, had no significance for Huzur Maharaj. What really mattered to him was the guidance of a true preceptor who would satisfy his spiritual thirst. His long - cherished ambition was realised when he met Soamiji Maharaj in 1858; in whom he could discern a real guide in flesh and blood. For twenty long years (1858-1878 ), he served the guru in manner unparalleled in the annals of bhakti. When in 1878, Soamiji departed for his heavenly abode, Rai Saligram Bahadur succeeded him as the guru and inaugurated an era of consolidation in the history of Radhasoami Satsang. After his retirement from official duties, he finally settled at Agra and devoted his entire time to religious duties. For twenty years (1878-1898 ) he served humanity at large and spread the divine light of love which he had received from his master. He took very little food and slept less than four hours a day. Excessive work weakened him physically. He left for his heavenly abode on 6 December 1898 after a brief illness. Thousands of his followers rushed to Agra for his last darshan and paid homage to their benevolent guru. His samadhi was built by his son Rai Ajudhya Prasad at the very place where satsang was held. Paying a tribute to him, the Indian Mirror observed : ' The death of Rai Saligram Saheb Bahadur of Agra will be sincerely regretted by the people of the North-west Provinces. The deceased gentleman occupied a high position in the Postal Department and enjoyed the confidence and respect of both the Government and the public. But we notice Rai Saligram death not so much because of his official position as because of the hold he had over the hearts of his countrymen. Indian official, who are in anyway in the service are apt to become some time denationalised. Rai Saligram, on the contrary, was a Hindu of Hindus, and the leader of a recognized Hindu association. He was a very charitable man, and his death is a distinct loss to the community.' Miracles beyond the reach of human reason have been generally associated with mystic saints of India and Saligram was no exception to it. Many stories about his occult are current at different centres of Radhasoami Satsang. A few miracles are mentioned below to illustrate the tremendous faith his followers had in him. It is said that when he was about to be born, the gestation period of his mother extended eighteen instead of the normal nine month and his mother experienced no trouble on that account and the delivery was normal. When he was only a few month old, a cobra would come to his bed-room every night and to his mother's horror the child would catch hold of the cobra by the neck and with it. The poisonous creature did not harm to him. Another story relate to an accident in which the boy Saligram fell down in the flooded Jamuna. Just when he was about to drown, some unseen hand caught hold of him and put him back into the boat. Many of his followers experienced his miraculous power when he became the Santsatguru. Max Mueller, his contemporary, writes 'the people are convinced that he can miracles, but he himself regards such thing as unbecoming and below his dignity.' It is said that he granted vision and initiation in dreams to persons who were keen on initiation into the Radhasoami faith by Huzur himself but could not personally approach him. Many proof are available about his capacity to cure patients merely by his personal touch or a glance. Dr. Mukund Lall, the then assistant surgeon to the viceroy, often sent patients of chronic hysteria to Huzur Maharaj and all of them were fully cured. It is said that many a foreigner came to his satsang after knowing his supernatural talents. A German theosophist and an American lady felt an inner call impelling them to seek spiritual guidance from Huzur Maharaj after having seen him in their dreams. The sanctity and spiritual impact of his residence are revealed by the belief that anyone who walked under the lamp-post in his lane, was sure to be attracted to the Radhasoami faith. People also thought that there was some magic in his eyes; even his casual glance would draw them towards him. Devotees who came to attend his satsang at Agra got so absorbed in the spiritual ecstasy of the saint's company that they would forget to attend to their official duties at the prescribed hour. To their surprise, they would find on reaching their office that the work allotted to them had been duly completed and they were marked present in the attendance register. Many of his followers recorded their experiences acknowledging Huzur Maharaj's grace and mercy in every walk of life. He granted them strength against evil forces. A compilation of these records would be sufficient material for an interesting book on mystic revelations. AS A RELIGIOUS TEACHER & WORK AS SANTSATGURU Huzur Maharaj studied the Hindu scriptures and probed deep into the six systems of Indian philosophy. He studied the Bible, the Quran and the holy books of Jainism and Buddhism. As already stated, he had travelled far and wide in search of a perfect guru. He met many sadhus, sufis and Christian missionaries and held discussions with them on a variety of religious topics, but did not get the desired light. He was ever restless to meet the true guru and to know from him the secrets of spiritual realization and solace. The horrors and aftermath of the freedom movement in 1857 left a sad mark on his impressionable mind, and increased his desire for meeting of a true guide. While on an official tour of Meerut, Huzur Maharaj met Pratap Singh Seth, who was then the camp clerk to the Postmaster General. In his leisure Seth used to recite hymns from guru banis which so much appealed to Huzur Maharaj that he asked him to explain their significance and meaning. Pratap Singh expressed his inability to interpret the hymns and advised Huzur Maharaj to meet his elder brother, Soamiji Maharaj, who alone could bring out spiritual secrets latent in those devotional hymns. Pratap Singh arranged their meeting in November 1858. The interview lasted for nearly seven hours. Soamiji's replies to Huzur Maharaj's searching questions were convincing and introduced him to a well-defined method for the attainment of the highest reality through the practice of surat-shabd-yoga. He exhorted him to practise it and arrive at the consequential results himself. The Huzur left the small room in which Soamiji was seated, entirely contented and enamoured. In profound gratitude he exclaimed ''I have found the one [Guru] I was seeking.'' Since then Huzur Maharaj kept himself in constant touch with Soamiji Maharaj whom he accepted as his guru and his love and devotion for him increased day by day. Soamiji preached the gospel of bhakti to Huzur Maharaj, and he started its practice in all earnestness and sincerity. He served the Master with body, mind, wealth and soul. He rubbed the furniture, swept the floor and cleaned the bathroom and the drains. He brought ration and other necessities of life for Soamiji's house; cooked his food; brought water from a well; helped him in taking bath, combed his hair and dressed him with robes of his choice. Sometimes he would carry his guru on his shoulders to nearby places outside the city. He obeyed the commands of the Master ungrudgingly and presented an ideal to the world. On two occasions, he refused promotions to higher posts in postal department, because they meant his transfer from Agra and hence separation from the guru. Huzur Maharaj used to offer his entire monthly salary to him; his household expenses were met from the money which Soamiji gave him for the purpose. He never lagged behind in spending on the celebration of a religious function of the satsang; if he had no money at the moment, he never hesitated to borrow. Huzur's total surrender to the Master reached its climax when he remained ever-absorbed inwardly in the contemplation of the form of his guru. In a society in which caste-prejudices were dominant, Huzur Maharaj had to face bitter criticism from his fellow caste men for services to a Khatri guru. The Kayasthas tried hard to excommunicate him, but their attempts failed. Huzur Maharaj remained firm as a rock and made no deviation in his service to his guru. A high civil officer though he was, he would run barefooted on the dusty streets of Agra with a pitcher of water for the guru on his head. The singular devotion of the disciple overwhelmed the Master who, it looks, was anxiously awaiting his predestined arrival to the satsang. Soamiji recognised in Huzur Maharaj his own spiritual counterpart and in all eternal radiance, bestowed upon him the most precious and sacred gift - the revelation of the name 'Radhasoami'. The object of Huzur's life had been achieved, and he felt contented as never before. As the pillar of Soamiji's satsang and the gurumukh - (chief disciple), he shouldered his responsibilities in a splendid manner and proved his worth. Many true seekers realised the spiritual powers of the Master through the Huzur. Soamiji found in him his worthy successor who would take up his unfinished task and spread his teachings far and wide. In 1878 when the Master departed from the physical world, Huzur Maharaj succeeded to the Gaddi to work for the expansion of Radhasoami Satsang. In the beginning, Huzur Maharaj held the satsang at Panni Gali, Agra - the residence of his guru. When in 1881, he was posted at Allahabad, he held regular satsang meetings there in spite of his heavy engagements in official duties as Postmaster General. He used to deliver interesting discourses on spiritual topics and initiated men and women into the faith. His vivid exposition of the tenets of the faith attracted attention of a large number of intelligentsia and many of them joined the faith. some of his European colleagues also attended his satsang and held discussions with him on religion. By his sound knowledge and rational arguments, Huzur Maharaj convinced them of the truth of the teachings of his faith. One of the European officers once got so struck by his magnetic personality that he burst forth 'I feel as if the Supreme Being is present right here and is talking to me.' From 1887 onwards, when Huzur Maharaj finally settled at Agra, the satsang made rapid progress. Thousands of people from different parts of the country started to pour in. He held four regular meetings of satsang daily at his residence, Huzuri Bhawan in Peepal Mandi. On special occasions, he conducted satsang at Panni gali and Soamibagh also. Huzur's satsang presented a magnificent spectacle. He delivered discourses, composed hymns and looked after the spiritual progress of his followers. He provided easy solutions to difficult problems arising in the practice of yoga. He dictated notes on different aspects of Radhasoami faith which were regularly published in his fortnightly journal Prem Patra. Sometimes leaders of other religious orders came to discuss with him the basic principles of the faith. Some of them felt so satisfied with his clear expositions that they ultimately offered themselves to be his followers. Love, devotion and faith were the chief characteristics of his satsang. He in his grace showered all love and mercy upon the devotees. They in turn worshipped him with added fervour and found themselves knitted together in a bond of mutual love and universal brotherhood. People of different castes, colours, languages and provinces gathered round Huzur's refulgent personality to derive solace and relief from the worldly sorrow, sin and suffering. During his regime, the Faith assumed the form of a fully developed organization and it emerged as one of the important religious movements of modern India. PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES Benevolence and charity were prominent characteristics of Huzur's life; he readily helped the poor and needy. Daily alms were distributed at his house to faqirs and beggars. He offered financial assistance to a number of deserving orphans and widows. He provided poor students with shelter, books, food and money He was generous in giving financial help to poor parents for the marriages of their daughters. He never made a show of his charity to others; rather he quietly donated large sums of money to orphanages and leprosy centres. Many educated and uneducated people who were unemployed could secure jobs with his help. In short, he was a friend of the needy, and the patron of the poor. Huzur Maharaj was equally interested in the promotion of higher learning in the country. He encouraged and patronised many schools in Agra. Mufid-i-Am School received his special care and attention since his very inception. Huzur's services to Agra College, his alma mater, were unique. When the college faced a crisis and was almost at the point of extinction, he alongwith some other prominent citizens of Agra left no stone unturned to place it on sound footing. On account of his merit as an able administrator, his opinion on any matter whatsoever was given due consideration by the Government. Therefore when he made a fervent appeal to the Government not to close Agra College, his words carried weight and the college was handed over to a Board of trustees consisting of some prominent citizens of Agra. He presented a scheme for the management of the college and collected large funds, himself paying a handsome amount, for its maintenance. When the administration of the college was transferred to a board of trustees, he readily agreed to serve on the Board in spite of his many preoccupations with official and religious duties. LITERARY WORKS The literature produced by Rai Salig Ram Bahadur deals essentially with the fundamental tenets of the Radhasoami faith. He wrote many books in Hindi, Urdu and English. His prose includes six volumes of Prem Patra Radhasoami. His style in Hindi is easy and intelligible. Persian and Urdu words are so aptly interwoven with Sanskrit and Hindi that the whole thing presents a picture of unique linguistic entity. His language is a model for those who are looking for a solution of the language problem. His writings directly appeals to the reader's heart. Prem Patra is the original source of information about the philosophy and tenets of Radhasoami faith. These volumes are indispensable both for devotees and critics. Highly philosophical and abstruse topics - theory of creation, emancipation of soul, meaning of the name 'Radhasoami' and effective practice of surat-shabd-yoga, importance of love and devotion for the Supreme Being and the Santsatguru - have been dealt with succinctly in these volumes. The meaningless rituals and abhorrent social practices of the time have been logically evaluated and a comparative study of prevalent religious practices and cults has been clearly presented. Also expounded is a code of moral conduct for the followers which also prescribes remedies for overcoming various types of interference in their daily spiritual practice. Huzur's book of poetry presented in four volumes is entitled as Prem Bani Radhasoami. Alongwith some philosophical elucidations, Prem Bani is a dynamic force of love. The hymns create a soothing effect and generate divine love in the minds of true devotees. Lyrical as the compositions are, they leave a deep spiritual impact of Huzur's mighty personality upon the reader. They are fascinating as well as thought provoking. His other publications in Hindi are Sar-Upadesh, Nij-Upadesh, Guru-Upadesh, Radhasoami Mat-Upadesh, Radhasoami Mat-Sandesh and Jugat Prakash. Huzur's only work in English is Radhasoami Mat Prakash. In lucid and captivating style, he has eloquently explained the tough concepts of Radhasoami faith and given essential information to a casual reader about the significance of the faith. His language is simple but forceful. He is careful in his choice of words and logical in his approach to religious topics. Even Farquhar, a critic of all critics, is full of appreciation and praise for this book. SOCIAL PROBLEMS OF THE DAY In denouncing the evils prevalent in Indian society, Huzur Maharaj's approach is that of a cautious reformer who believes in gradual but steady progressive change. Holding the caste prejudices as unbecoming he brings out that the caste system not only provides rights and privileges to people but also enjoins upon them certain duties, responsibilities and obligations for humanity in general. Quoting a Sanskrit couplet in this connection, he asserts that one cannot be called a Brahmin by virtue of his birth alone. He who goes through the four stages of knowledge prescribed to attain Brahman, can alone claim to be a Brahmin. He further writes that in matters of religious devotion the distinction of caste is a sin. He refers to the various avatars and bhaktas of Hinduism who belonged to lower castes, but were held in esteem in the past and are held in veneration even today According to him, the gradations in satsang can only be determined by the extent of love and devotion a satsangi has for the supreme being. One who is nearest to the Almighty is superior to all others. Huzur Maharaj admitted people from all castes to the Radhasoami faith and treated them on equal footing. The Huzur is quite eloquent in his criticism of the treatment meted out to women in Indian society. He raises objection to purdah system on spiritual grounds. He upholds the equality of woman with man, since the spirit entity is equally present in both. He categorically asserts that high status in learning or devotion to religion cannot be attained by living in purdah. On the contrary, he says, such women become so backward and dull that they fail to give proper training to their children. He permitted women to join the satsang, take initiation into the practice of surat-shabd-yoga, and perform guru-bhakti. He challenges the traditional belief that the husband is the virtual guru of his wife and says that a husband, ignorant of his own spiritual well-being, can never direct the wife to the right path. As such, a woman has as much claim to search and adopt a true guru as a man. Defending women's participation in satsang, he emphasizes that women attending satsang were better than those who visited temples, attended fairs and observed other uninspiring rituals and exposed themselves to all sorts of risks in the crowd Huzur holds that Indian women are crippled on account of their illiteracy. He pleads for their education as he feels that women are as eligible as men to receive it. He is pained to see that women are so heavily loaded with household work that they do not get enough time for study. He feels that they should receive sufficient education to correspond with their relatives, to maintain domestic accounts and to real the holy scriptures. He thus presents a compromise between the orthodox sections of society and the radical reformers inspired by the west. RELIGIOUS PRACTICES & CULTS As Huzur Maharaj was primarily a religious teacher, he was far more alive to the prevalent malpractices in religion than to social evils. He deals at length with outward practices and inherent defects in Hinduism. He is very pungent in his remarks on idol-worship, fasts, pilgrimage and mechanical recital of holy books. He declares that these activities alone cannot generate true love and devotion for the Supreme Being. The idol-worshippers, according to him, waste their time, energy and money in superficial adorations. He holds that the service offered to the ideal with body, mind and wealth cannot take a devotee very far on the road to true salvation; he may either gain some material benefits in this life or some temporary happenings in the next. As regards fasts and pilgrimages, he regrets to find that the original purpose - purification of body and mind and elevation of the spirit - has been completely forgotten and those have degenerated into days of merriment, feasting and fairs. According to him, people who recite holy books but do not practise meditation, will reap no spiritual gains and will ever remain ignorant of the path to true redemption. Huzur Maharaj has criticized the various forms of yoga prevalent in the country since the days of yore . He discards hathyoga as a purely external exercise which, instead of generating love for the Supreme Being, gives rise to pride and conceit. It is devoid of any spiritual benefit. Discussing the practice of pranayam, he says that it is difficult to perform it in the modern age. Its ancillary observances are so hazardous that a slight lapse or neglect may result in serious illness or even death. Huzur Maharaj holds that even ascetics find themselves incapable of practising pranayam. For persons leading a family life, it is impossible to achieve any success. He further asserts that even if it is correctly and successfully performed, it will not lead to true salvation, because its gains are limited to the region of Brahmand. A few yogeshwar gyanis who mastered this practice in the past reached only the second grand division [spiritual-material region] of Brahmand and were lost in the ecstasy and bliss of Brahman. Huzur Maharaj has also described the various forms of mudra practices and has proved their futility for the attainment of real redemption. He asserts that the scope of this practice too is very limited. One who successfully performs mudra can only attain the stage of samadhi; and the bliss of samadhi, according to him, is shortlived. Besides, the practitioner can never reach the region beyond pind. A study of Huzur's criticism of the cult of gyan shows that he possessed excellent knowledge of Vedanta. He holds that the propagators of advait believe in the existence of a non-dual reality but they fail to account for the emergence of maya from Brahman and jiva from maya, and in their ignorance call it anirvachaniya or mystery. Huzur Maharaj asserts that when they realize the Brahman through spiritual practice and declare him all-pervading, they are not incorrect because what they see and enjoy from that region is all Brahman. Lost in the ecstasy and bliss of Brahman far beyond the mayak creation, they feel as if they have attained the shuddha Brahman like a person who climbs a high mountain and fails to see what actually exists below, or like a person who dips down in the sea and cannot see anything except water. Huzur Maharaj further points out that the followers of advait could not notice the presence of maya (pure matter) latent in the form of seed in the region of Brahman. With regard to the theory of mayavad, he says that to consider the world as vikshep function of maya or illusion and at the same time regard it as vyavharik sat or real is a strange contradiction. Those who believe in mayavada , themselves perform all activities, he says that to consider the world as vikshep function of maya or illusion and at the same time regard it as vyavharik sat or real is a strange contradiction. those who believe in mayavada, themselves perform all activities, on material and physical plane, yet in theory they call the world a ''cosmic illusion. ''Huzur Maharaj points out that the secondary place assigned to bhakti is another glaring defect in advaitvada. He affirms that it is basically wrong to limit bhakti or upasana to rupwan rachna [creation having form] because in actual practice bhakti is performed from the beginning to the end. The individuality of the spirit entity is also ignored in advaitvada. According to him, when they find the vachya swarup of Brahman and his region subject to change and decay, they have no other alternative and means of escape than to advocate a complete merger of spirit entity in the laksh-swarup [formless] of Brahman. They, Huzur Maharaj holds, are wrong when they uphold that without getting access to gyan pad and merging with Brahman [Laya] one cannot attain salvation. He further finds no truth in the contention of the exponents of advait that 'to know Brahman is to become Brahman.'' He agrees with them that through spiritual practice and inner contemplation, one can realize Brahman and reach the Brahman-pad but contradicts them when they say that he himself becomes Brahman. This concept is equivalent to that of an athiest. Finally, Huzur Maharaj points out that sadhana [spiritual practice] performed for the attainment Brahman will lead devotees only to the second grand division of creation, which does not mean true salvation on account of the presence of matter, though in the purest form. Huzur Maharaj is extremely critical of those who after reading a few books on vedanta style themselves as true gyanis and even Brahman. According to him, they do not deserve the right to handle even the holy scriptures, because they have not gone through the four prescribed stages- vairagya, vivek, khatsampati and mumokshita - which should be essentially completed prior to the undertaking of the study of the scriptures. Huzur Maharaj calls them as mere sophists who would never attain true salvation. He believes that such men have indiscriminately distorted and ignored the original injunctions of the propagators of the cult of knowledge. They do not conduct any spiritual practice nor have they any control over their body and mind. Their knowledge is theoretical and superficial, and they suffer from self-deception . They are so egoistical that they do not pay attention to the teachings of an abhyasi guru [one who practices yoga] .They demand adoration for themselves, but discard the cult of bhakti. They pay visits to fairs and pilgirmages and lead the innocent people astray. Huzur Maharaj does not look with favour upon the cult of atheism also. He says that the creator is clearly discernible in each and every form of life and so is the purpose and function of creation. He also warns those who regard pleasure as the end of life and believe that the spirit entity is annihilated after death. Huzur Maharaj asserts that the existence of the spirit entity in every living being can-not be denied because it is not subject to change or decay. According to him, human life is meant for some higher purpose; it has been bestowed with finer faculties to attain spiritual heights and elevation. Huzur Maharaj has expressed his satisfaction with the reformative activities of the contemporary religious societies in condemning static external ritualism, but he does not approve their method of working. These societies, he hold, do not lay emphasis upon the necessity of a spiritual adept and internal practices and hence do not give a correct clue to the approach to the true Supreme Being. He further feels that the people join these societies only to get prominence in social life. Huzur Maharaj is astonished to find that the original teachings of the Vedas and Upanishads have been forgotten by those who claim to revive ancient religious traditions. He affirms that the Vedas exhort the jivas to attain Om shabd through internal practices, but the champions of ''go back to the Vedas' do not actually conform to the Vedic spirit. Neither do they enquire about the secrets of the shabd which should be practised internally, nor do they understand the imperatives about a brahmneshthi guru who being conversant with the secrets of shabd-Brahman fully knows the technique of the internal path. Huzur Maharaj considers all such religious practices as superficial and holds that they cannot lead to true salvation. According to him 'those who follow rituals, ceremonies, external observances, moral principles and such other things but do not understand the secret of real truth or the truth of truths, are in fact following a religion based on scanty information furnished by revelation of a lower order emanating from the presiding spirit or genius of the second or third grand division, where untruth and comparative less truth hold sway'. True religion or faith according to Huzur Maharaj is that, 'which leads a sincere seeker to the region of real truth...the most sublime mansion where nothing but the truth of truths dwells and manifests its unrivalled glory in splendid refulgence.' His truth of truths is 'unchangeable, immortal, full of everlasting and unbounded bliss and felicity unalloyed with any form of matter'. To sum up the attainment of this truth of truths is, according to him, true and perfect salvation. He asserts that the Radhasoami faith alone reveals to jivas the true path leading to the final redemption from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth - the ultimate goal of a true seeker. APPRAISAL A perusal of his life and his views on socio-religious practices reflects Huzur's rational approach towards the glaring problems of the day. He can be definitely styled as anti-ritualistic and anti-traditionalist. He neither favoured asceticism nor recommended the cult of pseudo-sanyas. He asserted boldly that the real detachment from the world and worldly objects would not be secured by leading the ascetic way of life; it would be possible only by living the life of a householder wherein one meets a variety of ordeals and afflictions everyday. In religion as well as society, Huzur Maharaj advocated the policy of golden mean and struck a balance between extremist and conservatives. Presenting a frank evaluation of prevalent religious practices, he advanced his argument in a scientific and philosophical manner. His religion can be defined as the 'eternal quest after truth' which rested upon the mighty pivot of love and on his spiritual socialism. He pleaded for the education of women and discarding of purdah system on spiritual grounds. His programmes for the amelioration of the lot of Indian women might appear today too moderate and scanty, but looking at the state of affairs during his time, his recommendations to improve their lot seem to be adequate to win for him the title of an 'emancipator of Indian women'. His approach to caste prejudices prevalent in his age appears to be realistic when he discarded man-made social distinctions, again on spiritual grounds. He refused to examine the utility of prevalent religious practices and cults and felt that they did not provide any means for the real progress and elevation of the spirit entity. Thus it is beyond any doubt, that he laid much more emphasis on the spiritual than material aspects of life. The glamour and achievements of the world had no significance for Huzur Maharaj. He found real contentment in the perfect ideal of spirit elevation. He can, therefore, be called a spiritualist who imparted spiritual fervour to every walk of life. Though he did not touch political problems, it would not be an exaggeration to say that he was a great moral force in the nineteenth century. source: Radhasoami Faith by: Prof. A.P. Mathur Source URL: http://santhakar.tripod.com/saints/bio-15.html The Perfect Post-Master biography... santhakar.tripod.com/saints/bio-15.html

Subject: Now isn't that a coincidence From: Jethro To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 19:25:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Another story relate to an accident in which the boy Saligram fell down in the flooded Jamuna. Just when he was about to drown, some unseen hand caught hold of him and put him back into the boat. ' In early DLM publications almost the exact same story is told about how s.hans met his guru.

Subject: So, Guru Selegram sent telegrams [nt] From: PatC To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 17:15:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: As long as he doesn't get too angry! From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 03:31:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....nnggggrrrrrrrrr....letters! ((rip rip...)) ...gggrrrrrrrrrr.....parcels!... ((crunch crunch.....)) gggggrrrrrrrrrrr......junk mail! ((tear tear...)) (((ddrring ddrring.....ddrring ddrring....))) (((ker-lick..))) 'WHADDYAWANT!!!!?????....er, sorry...FEDEX here, how can I help?...'

Subject: LOL - Rawat going postal. [nt] From: PatC To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 00:48:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great post, Chuck... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:01:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also noticed that in the past month links have been placed on LG for Enkankar and Ching Hai, which are listed as cults on Rick Ross's website. Are the premies still searching? I've got to go....been on this machine too long today...

Subject: Explaining why I don't follow him anymore? From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:36:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why bother? Nowadays premies believe that such things as truth, values, conscience, etc., are just mere concepts. How did they get there? Maharaji's efforts in constantly hammering in our heads how everything related with him and his K. is above the good and the bad, and above all judgment, has in part paid him back. He now possesses a newly renovated army of amoral premie advocates. He has turned them, little by little, step by step, into walking burned lamps. The source of light that used to be their souls is rotten dead, because the master, the father, the love, the teacher etc. is now throwing all his garbage on them, and they allow him to do it, with a smile on their faces and gratitude. And by his grace they are getting used to the putrid, and they are so happy, so grateful, so smelly, because that is what it's all about now, to stick with him no matter what. Could it be possible that someone still believes and fears that he could be the one that he once said he was?... But then he said he wasn't, but suggested that he still was, and when inspired, we said that he was, even when we were not supposed to anymore, with our hearts pounding, because then we knew that he was what we were never going to know, or not know, knowing or not knowing, because ... he was the one that he once said he was, but then said he wasn't...... Or could it be that someone is dishonest? Or brainwashed? Or sick? One bad banana spoils the bunch.

Subject: Thank you, Sulla From: PatC To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:47:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''He now possesses a newly renovated army of amoral premie advocates.'' Unfortunately those are the only premies that we see here - the ones who are trying to make trouble for us but most premies are decent people. I just renewed contact with an old premie friend who turned her back on me when I left the cult. She has just gotten back form Amaroo but for some reason decided to email me again after over a year. It is premies like her that keep me posting here because I know that most of them are like her - not immoral or unkind or insane as the premie cultweasels who post here are.

Subject: Hope she and others can leave 'that' army soon! From: Sulla To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 09:00:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ironic, isn't it ... From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:24:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ironic that basic moral instinct is gradually eroded by contact with this so-called 'Master'. No matter how 'beautiful' the experience of Knowledge might appear to practising premies, if it's slowly destroying the very foundation of many of their moral values in the process, that's far too heavy a price to pay, however blissfull they might feel about it. I don't want to appear to be over-dramaticising things, but these people who think they're getting closer to their 'souls' by immersing themselves in the Maha's world are, in fact, slowly selling their souls to their 'Master' Maharaji. IMO, it's got to be one of the most deceptive and dangerous paths that any honest seeker can get trapped in.

Subject: Yes and talking about the ones who know... From: Sulla To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 15:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,you are right and I'm talking about the ones that know about M's stuff, believe it, and support him anyway and the ones who don't believe it but would support him even if the stuff proves to be true. Even if they live a decent life or not, yes, they are and have been morally brain washed if they believe that he is God and that he can do whatever wrong ha wants, or if they believe that values, ethics, etc., are concepts, or if they think that we are not to judge him if we don't want to be judged. Even living an indecent life, we can be clear and honest enough to recognize right from wrong and to know that we are going to be judged for our actions, beginning with ourselves and then by others if they happen to find out. We weren't supposed to be the perfect ones anyway, he was. So if someone should be judged, it should be him. I'm not judging the premies, but they are morally incorrect for allowing him to make them degrade themselves by excusing the inexcusable.

Subject: This ring a bell with you ...? From: cq To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 09:20:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q: What kind of relationship do destructive group leaders have with their followers? A: The leader(s) most often defines what is right and wrong and their followers are expected to essentially defer making value judgements of their own regarding any issue of significant importance. And any member of the group who questions or doubts the authority of the leader is likely to be labeled wrong, rebellious, suppressive, negative and in some situations even 'demon possessed' or 'satanic.' No area of a member or follower's life appears to be immune from such a group's scrutiny and/or criticism. A kind of learned dependency often becomes a pivotal factor in such relationships. Members or followers seem highly dependent upon their leaders to resolve their problems and provide them with clarity and purpose'. From http://www.culteducation.com/faq.html click here for link to "Cult Education" site www.culteducation.com/faq.html

Subject: Happy Birthday PATC!!! From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:10:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You didn't tell us it was your birthday yesterday you naughty, naughty man. Hope you had fun, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday PATC!!! From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 17:42:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Belated happy birthday greetings to PatC! You were a boxer? Do tell. Has anyone optioned your life story yet? If not, it would make a boffo feature. The Life and Loves of a Wandering Sahdu: South Africa to Babylon by the Bay PatC, Thelma the Thunder Stealing Bitch and Shakti Pat come alive on the silver screen! Sparkling Halucinations! Richard

Subject: That's a whole nother story From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Richard. When I was 9 or 10 my dad decided to cure me of being a sissy and made do boxing. I was good at it and won a cup (South African gnat weight champ) but it was hell on my front teeth which have been broken, root-canalled and crowned more times than Rawat as Krishna. Yes, I've a had a few incarnations, lived a few lifetimes in one. But the boxing has since saved my life twice.

Subject: And how did you find out? From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:25:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course I mentioned it, right here, in a post somehwere - I said I got a birthday email from an old premie friend and that I was 55. Thanks Cynthia.

Subject: Hey, happy belated birthday, PatC! From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 17:41:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And has anyone said thank you for all your help, support (and patience!) here lately? Here's another appreciative 'thank you' and hope you're 55th year is full of great Taurean fine dining. :) and oh yes, of course, not to forget, another year free from Rawat! birthday cheers (2-days old, but still warm) from Crispy

Subject: Thanks Crispy Critter From: PatC To: Crispy Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 20:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! Now that was one of the best birthday presents I've had. Thanks.

Subject: Happy birthday, Pat From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like you had a good time, except for the tooth. Here's a cyberhug. Love, Marianne

Subject: All I want for Xmas is my.... From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:46:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A crowned tooth that was first knocked out when I was a boxer finally gave up the ghost. Thanks for the cyberhug.

Subject: Didn't you know I'm psychic?:):) [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:28:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: YAY !! Happy Birthday PatC!!! [nt] From: Loafie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:31:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Merci, pain au chocolat [nt] From: PatC To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:26:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Happy B-day Pat C! From: Sulla To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you have a wonderful day, in the company of your loved ones including your cute little dogs. My hamsters say hi! Are you going to have a cake? light plenty of candles and save me a piece. Have fun!

Subject: Happy belated B-day! From: Sulla To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you had a wonderful day, in the company of your loved ones including your cute little dogs. My hamsters say hi! Did you have cake? Did you light plenty of candles and save me a piece? I hope you had lots of fun!

Subject: Hi to your hamsters. Thanks Sulla [nt] From: PatC To: Sulla Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:23:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Happy Birhday Pat!!! From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:56:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat and Happy Birthday!!! Wish we could all be there in your restaurant stuffing ourselves and having a ball. In fact email me your phone no sometime if you still have my email and I'll call you sometime on impulse - it'd be fun to talk for a few momentsm n'est-ce pas? Love, Liv XX

Subject: Thanks, Liv. Will do [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:03:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Thanks, Liv. Will do From: Victor in NYC To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:32:55 (PDT) Email Address: victor.joseph@weil.com Message: I send my love Patrick and wishes for many happy returns - so we can enjoy your company. Love from Victor in New York

Subject: Hi, Victor. Thanks From: PatC To: Victor in NYC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:48:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you are well and happy too.

Subject: Yeah, belated HB..you ole codger :) [nt] From: Dermot To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 15:43:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Belated Happy Happy Birthday! From: Vicki To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 17:44:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope you kicked up your boot heels and frightened some horses!

Subject: Lost a tooth and had a root canal today From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 18:02:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seriously! It took two hours. My teeth always seem to act up on my birthday. The first root canal I ever had was 20 odd years ago and I was drugged up on percocet afterwards and asked to give satsang. Everyone said it was the best satsang I ever gave. I think you have to be stoned to give good satsang. :C) The funny thing it was that first root canalled tooth which fell out on my birthday. Well, actually I pulled it out with pliers as it was hurting. Now let me tell you about my second root canal....... Thanks for your birthday wishes.

Subject: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:06:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found this link on LG this morning. The name is of the site is in my subject line. I'm sure there will be comments on this anonymously written site. http://www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/Exitism.htm Critical View of Ex-Premie Scene www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/Exitism.htm

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 22:59:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another load of popycock written by the usual anonymous premie cowards. The fact is that more than 90% of people that 'received knowledge' have left. Those that remain are verbally paralysed becuase they are stiffled by m who demands total attention. I would have though that prem could do better than use David Roupell and catweasel as his reps, but there you go. They are doing wonders for the 'ex-premie agenda'. Note that both Roupell and Catweasel claim to be personal friens of prem, so I think it is a safe assumption that they are reflecting prem's views, i.e hate anyone or anything that does not support me.

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Premie Scene From: Inside Edition To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 15:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A Critical View of the Premie Scene: At the end of the day, no matter what you do, you are still in a CULT!

Subject: What a shit site. It's not even very well done. From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 13:38:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, at least the author(s) of this site left out names, home addresses, work numbers, work addresses and pictures of the people involved with the 'ex-premie scene.' Ahh, the anonymous shield of the internet, doesn't always bring out the best in people now does it? Take care, Tonette

Subject: You're correct, Tonette... From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 09:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is a shitty site, tiny print and many typos and gramatical errors. I think it's quite interesting that whoever made it up is just another person who can't stand the fact that ex-premies exist on the internet. It's backlash and we've experienced so much of that in the past that this ill conceived site is just another futile effort to discredit the people who have come to see prem pal as a fraud and a cult leader by calling us a cult. So weird. How are you? Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:52:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is self-serving rubbish barely worth discussion. Neville

Subject: Whoops From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 03:56:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoops. I mean the 'critical view' article is self-serving rubbish, not Cynthia's post. Clarity, clarity, spare nothing to achieve clarity... Neville

Subject: Re: Whoops From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 08:58:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I knew you didn't mean my post but I do appreciate the clarification. Cynthia:)

Subject: You're getting the hang of it, Neville From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 11:39:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Internet chatrooms are not as easy to communicate on as real life. It's good to be precise - prevents endless misunderstandings. Thanks.

Subject: I Just re-read it ... From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:04:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I really dont know what to say ! Nobody will ever read my posts again !!! I think I am guilty of flying off the handle and swiping at ghosts... I am jumpy and nervous of authority, like a rape victim is of a friendly touch..and I am beginning to suspect that my trust and faith in others has been contaminated.. NOT by maharaji's betrayal of me, BUT by the drip drip drip of the devisive effects of the techniques of Knowledge and the conditioning of believing that the HEART is reliable. The sheer arrogance and seperateness of Premiedom has left me feeling like a fish out of water. Like an exiled and overthrown mini-dictator . I had become a mini-maharaji, insulated in a bubble of self esteem based on false horizons. I would have wanted HIM to challenge my horizons, but nobody else has been let near. In these matters, this forum deals with matters which previously I would only have let maharaji speak with authority. Now we are here, and I find I am overly nervous of there being created a second maharaji in my life, and nervous of being coralled into compliance.. and yet there is still a vacant throne in my heart. A throne which he occupied. A throne which makes me vulnerable to usurpers. You have all treated my vulnerability with the utmost of respect.. and i thank you. Thanks Jim for all your good work and your constant dilligence. I am humbled, and am learning slowly to leave my throne empty.

Subject: sure we will [nt] From: bill To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 18:29:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even if the god is quietly seeming to leave you alone, the troublemaker has his throne and he is keeping the toubles coming to each and every person on earth. If you wonder if there is a god, the nitpicking troublemaker who will leave no one alone will at least remind us that we are not just here alone with others in bodies. Maybe your throne is empty, doesnt mean there is no one with control power. the troublemaker in life has great control, and if jesus is right, he said 'the devil knows not for whom he works', then there are at least 2 who would be worth noticing if you want to recognise all the

Subject: Empty throne... From: Chuck S. To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 17:57:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post, Loafie. Very honest. I remember, after first deciding to leave Maharaji, feeling a sort of empty feeling. You describe it as an empty throne. I felt it was like a hole, spiritually or mentally. A space in my mind and my emotions for Maharaji, that was now vacant. Part of me wanted to fill that space up again with something else right away, but another part of me was terrified of the thought. What would take M's place? Another false belief system? Would someone else exploit me again? I was leary of the ex-premies, and anything that smacked of an organization, or joining a group. I had a lot of ambivilant feelings, the first time we met a group of ex-premies at a so-called 'Latvian Night', because I didn't want to be part of some ex-premie group. I was in turmoil about it, right up till we all met. It turned out my fears were unfounded, it wasn't like an organization at all, but more like a reunion of old friends or people who shared a common past. All social, like a bunch of friends talking, just like Marianne told me it would be. Seeing was believing. I'm really glad the ex-premies are so unsyncronized, with so many disagreements about so many things, and I've actually come to value that. The insistance on unanimity in the participation commitee meetings was one of the big drips for me. The lack of unanimity here on many issues is reasuring. It's been a year and a half since I left. I don't feel a 'hole' anymore, I just feel whole now. I didn't have to fill an empty space with somthing else, I just got used to not having an imaginary relationship with an imaginary friend. I've got myself back. There was no 'hole'. You have a heart AND a mind, embrace them both, and let them help you. I think you'll find your nervousness lessening with time, as you become more confident and comfortable finding your own wisdom and self-trust again. I don't know if time heals all, but it does heal a lot.

Subject: Re: Empty throne... From: Loaf To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 22:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Chuck. Perhaps the empty thone analogy is worthy of examination. It doesnt feel empty... its not a 'NEED' Its more like being a kid... playing on your computer, but knowing that SOMEBODY ELSE could turn the power off whenever they wanted. Its hard to explain. Its not directly linked to parents (or it might be) but its a place where somebody could sit beyond doubt . A religious and Jesus/Superman Place perhaps, but one which places ME at a disadvantage. A place for heroes and stars A place to which I demurr by default. An Inner Throne which creates its own State, its own courtiers and armies... for as soon as the throne is defined there is a responsibility to it. It cannot be ignored now. Its the throne upon which an alchoholic has placed drink, and the throne upon which the entire German nation once allowed a corporal. Whoever occupies the throne is altered by it. It is electric and empowering, yet it implies and imports STATUS into every moment. It makes people feel self-important in such a way that they CANNOT let it go willingly. The throne is made of the very stuff of power and attention. Actors will sit in it, but often not as themselves. Lord Olivier would only occupy it with a false nose on, or a costume. Such was his self loathing and his ego. I DONT want anyone to sit in my throne. I dont trust it (or them any more)... BUT there is a residual fear (too strong a word... erm..doubt) that the throne is there for the grabbing. I have spent 18 years of my life believing someone to be perfect and ABOVE all others. That in itself is not healthy, no matter if they are 'dethroned' or not. For a long time I wouldnt listen to anyone else. Such arrogance ! Instead of a throne I want there to be two BIG sofas. Room for lots of people. And a round table. With a lamp on it. And a nice rug.

Subject: The F7 cult From: PatC - reposting JHB To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 18:08:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB on AG and LG The F7 Cult Message: Current posters on F7 include:- AJW AV Babs Bill Blondie Bolly Shri Brian Smith Bryn Carl Chuck S. Coming Around cq Crispy Cynthia Dave Punshon Dep Deprogram Anand Ji Dermot Disculta fr Francesca Gerry Gregg Hamzen Happie Frenchie Inside Edition Jean-Michel Jethro JHB Jim Jim S. Kelly LA-EX Lesley Livia Loaf Marianne Marshall Mickey the Pharisee Moley Moll of Mole Neville Nigel PatC PatD PatW Richard Salam Scott T. Sir Dave Sulla Thorin Tonette Ulf Vicki Will The number of serious disagreements between these 56 ex-premies is small, and the debates on F7 are intelligent and adult. Even when disagreements do occur, both sides express their positions freely. Compare that to here, where the conversations are shallow, and childish. Just pointing out what should be obvious. --- --- --- --- --- - On AG Sir D responded: What's your problem? So you don't like this forum. So what? Who cares about what you think. Why read or post here if you don't like it? I have been informed by the leader of Forum 7 (Jim) that I am not welcome there. That's hardly a small disagreement. I'd call that pretty shallow and childish. I'd also call PatC's insulting remarks to Selene and others to be pretty shallow and childish. In fact, I'd call your own remarks about this place and the motives behind them to be pretty shallow and childish, too. But what me worry. This place isn't my life nor the people's here. It's just a bloody forum. Nothing noble or clever about it. Nothing noble or clever about what's written here. No pretence to be something great or special. If you don't like it, why are you here? --- --- --- --- --- --- The LG responses: Loaf stepped away Recipient: JHB Subject: for a moment from the party line Message: and he/she was gang-tackled immediately and ridiculed or not-so-subtly pressured into re-thinking, recanting and re-grooving with the program. That's some pretty adult, intelligent, inspiring stuff. Freedom of thought. Right. --- --- --- --- --- - Dermot Recipient: Loaf stepped away Subject: How about THIS party line Message: 'never doubt the purity of the master' even if he's like ALL the other spirtual sleazeballs in town. Now THAT'S a party line mister hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa. --- --- --- --- --- - mili (who was apparently Stonor's email pal before she sarted posting on F5 two years ago - she came looking for him!?) Yeah. Loaf's first reaction to the 'exitism' page was like, 'Right on!'. Then the heavies stepped in - first Gerry to threaten to block him, i.e. isolate him as a penalty, and then Jim and the others softened him up and brought him around. Classic brainwashing technique. Typical. --- --- --- --- --- -- jhb Mili, You took the time to respond to my post with an example of discord on F7. I pointed out to you that the two combatants had discussed the issue and had resolved it like adults, and you respond by calling me pathetic. Now, do you actually want a conversation, or do you simply want to throw insults? If the latter, then I would join in, but I prefer to do it orally. The printed word is so difficult to take back, don't you think? John.

Subject: i think I should say something From: Loaf To: PatC - reposting JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 00:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its true... my initial reaction was 'spot on !' I am always interested in looking at the emotional patterns which underlie 'thinking' and i am in NO WAY certain any group or bunch of individiuals is free from such peer pressures. BUt I have come the conclusion, after many many months of very mixed feelings about certain posters that they are on the whole a GOOD THING - although I wish they would ALL drop the 'making an issue out of petty arguements' tendency and keep the focus on healing. I am also very clear that this place is a good thing... and I think it becomes gradually a more reflective place by us all not being afraid to be wrong. Gerry never really meant to block me, I knew that.. and even though i mentioned 'people with their finger on the button' I wasnt worried or shocked. However a few years ago when a similar thing happened on Recent Exes i was traumatised and hurt. I think my skin has grown thicker AND more flexible. Undoubtably it was being a Premie that make me Fragile, Brittle, nervous, Hyper-Sensitive, Arrogant, Defensive, Blissful and Self centred. i am learning to let go of old habits. This is a good place to learn to listen. To learn to argue, to learn to THINK and to keep your integrity even when admitting you have been wrong. After all, If Premies cant admit they are wrong.. they will NEVER become exes. I dont want to get stuck always being right.

Subject: I wouldn't call it ''thick-skinned'' From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 01:02:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd say rather that the longer one is out of the cult the morely clearly one thinks. Most of us were pretty emotional as premies and those emotions were manipulated as were our thoughts. The more confident we become of our own ideas the less afraid of others ideas we become and don't have to be defensive or imagine that you are being expected to conform. Salam's whole website reeks of the paranoia that he and the other ex-ex-premies are being ''brainwashed'' by the F7 cult. This is because he does not have the guts to stand up for himself. He had to make an anonymous website attacking F7. Getting out of the cult means having guts and standing up for yourself. No one here is going to squash anyone who converses rationally and has the courage of their convictions. But the net can be a harsh and impersonal place that's why honesty and accountability are the real currency of communication here.

Subject: FAME ! From: Loaf To: PatC - reposting JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 22:48:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Infamy Infamy !! They have all got it Infamy !!

Subject: Thanks, Loaf From: Jim To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:57:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, This has happened to me before ... well, kinda. In a way, it happens all the time. I'll have some great response to something just because it kind of looks good, rings some sort of bell somehow, and I'll say something. It can happen to anyone. The really interesting thing, and noble I have to say in this case, is the way you were able to retrace your steps with humility, honesty and thus, in the end, honour. I must say, that's a breath of fresh air considering that what we're dealing with in people like Deborah, Selene, Salam and now Dave is a lack of accountability that allows them to reverse themselves cleanly and fairly where need be. And look at the extent to which they'll go to cover for themselves once they've opted against such accountability! Imagine, Loaf, if you would have staked a position as you did here only to see it assailed, as it was, as untenable BUT this time you weren't about to let anyone tell you anything. In the case of all four of those jokers, that's exactly what happened. Exactly! In fact, in the weirdest display of bizarreness, Deborah has now tried to twist my attempt to bring her back to some rational perspective as just that much further proof that I (we?) are trying to 'control' her mind. What I'm referring to is the question I tried to ask her when I hadn't give up any last hope that she wasn't completely beyond reach which I now sadly believe to be true. All I asked her, as carefully and civilly as I could, was what the characters of either Gerry, Pat, John or myself had to do with the bigger, prime questions about Maharaji that bring us here in the first place. You know, so what if I'm an asshole, what's that got to do with the price of eggs in China, kind of thing. Deborah and her silly friends saw that as just that much more intimidation and brainwashing. And that, I'm afraid, is the mentality that spawned this pathetic website Salam did. If people are afraid to discuss and consider things rationally, then every last slight, real or imagined, fogs the lens and makes communication impossible. Those poor folk, is all I can say. You, on the other hand, Loaf, reconsidered your post, in spite of your embarrassment, and that really is a rather brave kind of thing to do. Good luck next time too! :)

Subject: Re: I Just re-read it ... From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:44:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loafie, you are a sweet soul and I've always loved your posts. Quickly, because it's my bedtime, I just wanted to say - the rightful owner of your throne is your own instinct, your own intuition, your own realisation and your own wisdom, which no one can plant and no one can take away from you. We just have to learn to trust in ourselves, and ultimately our selves alone. If we need tools to help us to increase our instinct, intuition, realisation and wisdom, we can find them. And if we want to do it without tools we can do that too. But the main thing to remember is that we are all potentially as wise as whoever we may listen to, so who better to listen to, ultimately, than ourselves. It's all in there. Much love to you, Loafie Livia XX

Subject: Hi again Loafie From: Marianne To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Loafie, just take your time with yourself. No one here wants to intimidate you into thinking one thing or another. I think finding meaningful and reliable friendships is a real first step towards healing a wrong that was done to your heart and mind. You've got Nigel and Moley there - two wonderful people who care about you. I can't imagine two better people to hang with and help you get your head on straight. Meanwhile, there's email with the rest of us! Hang in there. Marianne

Subject: See my post to you below, Loafie... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:13:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Salam's latest mischief From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:06:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The typos, the color scheme, the clumsy use of columns, the turns of phrase, the recent faction fights led by him all point to this site being Salam's latest piece of mischief. I have never trusted Salam and have long contended that, even if he is not a fictional character created by someone like Roupell to be a fake ex, he might as well be because he sure behaves as a cult agent provocateur. No real person can be as irrational and stupid as he is. Since I have challenged him and called his bluff he has removed his Journey from EPO. (It always seemed fake - he claimed not to remember any dates or places or simple details.) He stepped up his disgusting homophobic attacks on me and spread lies about my business. When I accused him of being Quiet and Quiet's mate, Quiet immediately disappeared. Then another anonymous sniper appeared - ZB, who stalked Jim all over the four forums making snide lawyer jokes. ZB also happened to use the same IP# as Quiet and Quiet's mate. Then I accused Salam of being Phil/Oliver/Twiz, a particularly insane hydra-headed monster who used to derail discussions on F5 when I first arrived over a year ago. Now Twiz has suddenly re-appeared after an abscence of more than a year and declared himself to have been posting as ZB. Salam is a cult agent provocateur. He is not even a real person. He is a fictional character like Roupell's cerise or like Catweasel. He has succeeded in gathering about him a harem of disgruntled women on AG who email him and phone him and feel sorry for him. He is the creator of this faction of disgruntled exes and is using the most mentally fragile as tools in his campaign. I know I don't have proof but I also know that I am right. Salam is another cerise designed to create disruption among exes. Mark my words. I am also convinced that he was the creator of CAC. Salam is a cultweasel, a fictional ex just as Phil/Oliver/Twiz are designed to make exes look like paranoid nuts. I was right about them all being the same person when everyone else believed they were separate but when I said it I was too new on the forum to be taken seriously. Now he has said it himself. Salam is a cult agent, a fake persona like cerise/Marolyn et al. If you don't believe me fine but don't say I didn't warn you. These fakes exes have been introducing an atmosphere of insanity to the forum for a long time. They put me off posting for a year. Anyone can see that most exes are perfectly sane and rational so why are all the insane, anonymous exes posting from Australia? Because it's all one or two cult agents doing it, probably Roupell and/or Catweasel.

Subject: You're probably right From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:20:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if this is any help, but my approach to anyone new is to take them at face value. If they then come across as a little dubious, then I just keep them at arms length emotionally, and see what happens. I've felt for a long time that being fooled is irrelevant if it had no negative effect on me. What I mean is that it doesn't matter if there is no substantive difference between believing someone or not believing them. Salam, or whoever he is, has put a tremendous amount of work into his crusade since he appeared. His counter to it-aint-so certainly seemed like a genuine ex site, and his offer for someone to take it over also seemed genuine. So, I just don't know. Certainly at the moment he's behaving like he's one sandwich short of a picnic. John.

Subject: Re: You're probably right From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:27:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''....my approach to anyone new is to take them at face value. If they then come across as a little dubious, then I just keep them at arms length emotionally, and see what happens. I've felt for a long time that being fooled is irrelevant if it had no negative effect on me.'' I couldn't agree more. I also cannot be fooled - for long. I take all newbies at face value and figure that they will eventually show their true colors. Salam's CAC profile was totally innocuous compared with the attacks on Jim, Marianne, Joe and me. A red herring - as was his Say it ain't so site. Salam is either completley insane or an agent provocateur. Either way he a mischief-maker and malicious to boot.

Subject: Re: Salam's latest mischief From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:07:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I mistaken in thinking Salam was at the 1st London Latvian night? I remember some photos,well over a yr ago now. AJW,JHB,Jean-Michel,& Marianne were on them,all of whom I met(all too briefly) at the 2nd. Wasn't Salam there also,or is my memory letting me down.

Subject: Your memory is letting you down From: JHB To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:52:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I've never met Salam, who lives in Australia. The Latvian night pictures were taken at, I think, the third Latvian night at the London Latvian club, although there was a meeting of me, Jethro, Anth and Charlie in a pub before that, and me and Jethro met once before. The person at the Latvian night you refer to that is missing from your list is cq (Chris Giles). The Latvian night when you attended was at least the fourth, possibly 5th or 6th depending on how you count them:-) All the best, John.

Subject: LG daft shenanigens From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:08:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They're all plotting their latest attempts to confound us all over here - it's actually becoming quite sad, and desperate too, as they desperately try to convince themselves that we're the sad desperate ones. Oh dear indeed. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Re: LG daft shenanigens From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 11:26:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chatrooms are delicate environments. No-one can see who is really talking. One creates an on-line presence and gains respectabiltiy and credibilty slowly and by being honest and not playing games. Here are some examples of the ex-ex-premies talking to premies. Are these people sane? From AG: Twiz (another hydra-heade monster who used to post as Oliver and Phil in the good old days when I first arrived:) I notice that I am still blocked on F7 even though occassionally I manage to get in. Is this common? Also, I was wondering who else is a fellow blockee. Who knows, we might be a greater number than those who contribute. Personally, I'd prefer to be at least allowed to read. I seem to remember that was the case when I posted as Des Perado. Those were the days. Those were the days. Now Des, he was really crazy. yea yea! --- --- --- --- --- - anon: *** But it's even more fun being there and posting when they THINK you ain't!!!! X the Multi Headed Troglodyte --- --- --- - salam: HOEY Did you bock me of f7 you loser or was't that faggot off sider of yours? Didn't I tell you not to do it or do you want me to force my self in. --- --- --- --- - Deb: Hi Salam, Yea, the corrupt FA blocked me too. Pretty strange that he would block someone who hasn't posted there in 3-months. Yet, he is at this very time using his Hotboard's chatroom to spread false testimony. Gerry is a very little man with even less integrity. And you are not the only one who is not interested in reading. Jim posts over 60% of the threads desperately trying to keep people hanging in their with his puerile fanatical posts. And his sidekicks never fail to rush to assist the desperate hype to get participation. funny FA hasn't boasted numbers lately. Funnier still, things are going to get worse. F-VII is a trailor park of a chat room since they fucked up and fucked up trying to cover up the fuck up. cheers, deborah, who can't believe they're stupid enough to mess w/Salam --- --- --- - From LG JHB to Roupell aka Cerise/Marolyn/SC/Doc/DR et al: It's hard to tell reality from fantasy in your world, but are you and Salam the same person? John. --- --- --- --- - DR I blew it by inviting SC (another me) to host a page on the 'It Is So' website. It was a stupid move I admit, but we live and learn. My next creation will be so feindishly clever that it will probably even fool me. How do you like my latest offering that you have no doubt seen? I'm still not sure about the colours. Doc - who knows it is John's world that is suffering from a confusion of realities. Dave --- --- --- --- -- Sir Dave to DR: For God's sake don't tell them you are me, too. At least keep some things secret. We are one in the spirit We are one in the Lord blah blah etc etc --- --- --- -- DR to Sir Dave: I think our mutual penchent for armour, zany Brit humour and colourful flags could be a bit of a giveaway, ahem... I note they at the good ship F Seventh Heaven are going to take us all on 'Face Value' from now on, but keep us at arms length 'emotionally' so to speak. Jolly good chaps, that's the way. Oh, and I just posted another HUGE red herring of a post there that looks as if it contains some cheesy new material but is in fact just a clever rehash of olde archive shyte, the pig stye is awash with sweaty bodies all rushing into it! I feel it was a very good come back post for my other nice english 'gentleman' character, one Patrick Wilson Hope all you Pat C's had a good birthday and enjoy those new false teeth you got after having your faces smashed in by too much boxing...hey, that could also account for your...no.....no --- --- --- --- CW: Hey,that's bullshit,I was Salam,and Rob,Bazza,Twiz,Oliver,Sandford Pass and Pat Conlon. And I am still worming my way through F7 whilst the silly buggers ponder bogus leads............ --- --- - Sir Dave: and Patsy's got a five thousand mile long penis. I know he has because he threatened to stick it up Salam's ass. --- --- --- --- DR: Yea, well, everyone is being honest at last, guess we can wrap up now and go home. Oh, and I was Marshall - I just had to have someone that hated my own guts bigtime, and someone who totally loaths the rich and noble families that rule what's left of UK. Ahh, it's been great for us skitzos to do a bit of a work out with I have a couple more but have decided they still have legs so will run them for awhile longer incognito - if Lying and Conlon ever find out they'll self implode I'll give you a hint though and say that the actual number of genuine ex-premies is less than a dozen. Seriously. I knew you were hamzen Mili, the music refs gave you away.. Thank god there were at least three Pat Conlon clones. Shit, no single human head could possibly contain that massive abberation of disparate and disfunctional personalities. Strewth! --- --- --- dr to deb: That's the idea, do something wivit. I enjoyed that phone linkup with you C and J. The legalities are a bit over my head as you know - us creative types don't know shit about the law, but I'm really glad you C and J have a lot sussed out. It's going to be interesting P.S. Glad you liked the pink! in honour of my fav band --- --- --- --- --- -- cw to deb: Libel is a really interesting subject. You have to be SURE of your facts. PatC is an imbecile --- --- --- --- --- - anon: even as we speak I move amongst them quietly and efficiently. They pay homage to me their esteemed colleague and swear undying friendship to my persona...Ohhhh the intrigue!! I rarely visit that little corner of Hell ,but from what I can see, I believe that this time they have stepped over the line. The mumbo's know what is happening.They choose to disregard more informed advice in the vain hope that no-one will take them to task.It will be interesting.................

Subject: Sad indeed ,Livia... From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 10:31:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but it saves a lot of them having to face some uncomfortable facts about the nature of Maharaji and his 'work'. Hmmmmm....what is his 'work'? Ah yes, amassing a massive car collection, watch collection,Residences,Land, Yacht and Jet purchases...and what else? Oh yeah, passing on four crappy med techniques and offering the gift of a lifetime of scyophancy....that's it.Good work if you can get it....or bad work, depending on your perspective. Andrew Cohen did his apprenticeship, though, and look at him now! Ok, like Maharaji, he's had to sacrifice his mother but ...all that lovely money and sycophancy.... I'm CERTAIN that both Andrew and Prem will feel their 'gift' is the graetest charitable gift in the world.Very convenient too....with the ULTIMATE Charity, there's little need to help poor, starving, helpless children worldwide or any other 'inferior' charity work.The cheek of starving kids...thinking they NEED food ...when life is GREAT!! No, it's much better for Rawat to amass obscene wealth and offer that much needed sycophancy as the GREATEST GIFT. I see some of the LG lot are discovering Scientology to be a great inspiration in their war against us Anti-Sycophants :) I notice Lou wasn't too happy with the Scientology connection but he didn't really get much support. Heck, wasn't CAC based on Scientology stuff? I think it was. Ah well ...it takes all sorts to keep a cult up and running....men and women have to do what they gotta do...protect the undeserving Master at all costs:) Too busy to read/post much at the moment but Hi to everyone....and solidarity to the EPO/F7.... Cheers Dermot

Subject: Latvian night From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:24:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello PatD! How are you? There were several Latvian nights even before that first one I attended. Salam hasn't attended any of them. Those times I spent with you wily Brits were great fun, and I agree, too short. Love, Marianne

Subject: Re: Latvian night From: PatD To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:44:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne,thanks for clearing that up. Just goes to show that those who were there are the only people who know what they're talking about. In any situation. Sorry PatC,didn't mean to embarrass you,just got an attack of internet reefer madness. Although I tend to agree with Jim on this,if you're right,Rawat has a spider working for him. Yuck.

Subject: I'm just a detective, PatD From: PatC To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:09:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where is a prosecuting attorney when you need one? It's not up to me to make a case. I hand my evidence to the prosecutor. Unfortunately we have two defense attorneys here and no prosecutors. Of course, I'm not sure but my main point is that Salam might as well be working for the cult disinformation specialists as the outcome is the same.:C)

Subject: God, I wish you wouldn't do that!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:01:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, First, yes that's most definitely Salam's work. But, sorry, but can't you see all the unnecessary trouble you cause when you go out on a limb like this with all this identity stuff? You may be right but what if you're not? What if, for all his faults and all the coincidences, many of which might strike different reasonable people in a variety of ways, Salam is just who he says he is? Then haven't you just given his already paranoid mind a lifetime's justification for attacking you and acting so generally irresponsibly? Pat, you might be onto the biggest online ex community scoop in a long time. This could be bigger and better than 'Who's Rob?' (and 'Who's Rob? II: Behind the scenes with Bazza'. But it may also just be your imagination and throwing these suspicions out as bold allegations would be unfair and counter-productive were that so, don't you agree? I mean, come on, Pat. You're convinced that Salam, himself a CAC target, was actually behind that ugly tumourous site? Convinced, Pat? I don't know. Same with ZB who now 'admits' that he's really just old Twiz, Des Perado, Oliver again. Personally, unless there's really strong and compelling evidence linking these identities, I think the only way to deal with any of them is at face value. That's not to say your theories may not be both ingenious AND possibly even right. I'm particularly impressed by the evidence that Quiet is apparently that same unstable fellow we've known on and off for years here. Hats off to you entirely for sussing that ... if it's true. But I still think it's important to not overextend ourselves in self-defence when, really, it's the last thing we need to do. Pat, you, I, Gerry, JHB, Cynth ... the current crop that crazy Deborah and her friends are trying to villify, just never did anything wrong. Nothing. That's why none of these guys will debate us directly about their accusations because they know there's nothing really there, that it's all that empty. So why give them something real to complain about like a false accusation that we can't prove in any event? How was bowling? How was your birthday?

Subject: Apart from loosing a tooth From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I bit into a piece of toast, I had a wonderful birthday, thanks. I guess loosing teeth is just part of being 55. Salam may be exactly who he says he is and is simply insane enough to have totally lost the plot. Reading his website again made me realize just how idiotic and illogical he is. He may not be a cult agent provocateur but he might as well be for all the harm he has doen. He has simply used Selene, Sir Dave, Robyn and his the other members of his AG harem as useful idiots. They are mostly a foolish bunch and suckers for his brand of rebel without a clue persona useful idiots as Lenin would say. The whole Debacle made me think that I may be wrong about Salam because you know Deb and we have all now seen that people really can be more irrational than one could possibly imagine. Or was she a plant also? Just kidding but not about Salam. My real point is that the rebels without a clue might as well be agents provocateurs because the result is the same. But they are now marginalized and irrelevant because of the growing sanity on the forum. They pose no threat and are merely irritating like sewer flies. I didn't go bowling by the way but cooked a lovely dinner for myself: Italian, halibut with lots of fresh basil and a sprig of rosemary from the garden, zucchini, eggplant, lots of garlic of course, pasta and pesto, a salad of radicchio, olives and tomatoes, fresh sourdough bread and an oaky chardonnay and watched Law and Order afterwards - a take-off of the RC church scandals - excellent.

Subject: That sounds wonderful From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hope you had a great birthday, Pat and thanks for all your help and support. Mind if I steal your recipe? I'm cooking red snapper and have fresh rosemary and some of last year's dry basil. The garden has lots of oak leaf lettuce, green leaf and escrole waiting to be picked. We harvested radishes yesterday. Can you suggest a quick and easy dressing? I have pesto (frozen from last years crop) and pasta, so that's a go. I haven't baked bread in a couple weeks, though and have no starter. And Patty will want to swill beer, the little lush :)

Subject: Do a quick bread From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:59:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you got any lemons and mayonnaise in the house? Quick dressing. Lots of crushed and minced garlic, lemon juice, a dash of worcestershire sauce and as much mayo as you need. Drizzles the lemon juice and worce..etc sauce slowly into mayo, stirring to keep smooth. Add garlic and salt and pepper to taste. BTW Red snapper is endangered but halibut is not.

Subject: how dinner's shaping up... From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:51:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Patty is poaching the endangered red snapper in fresh vegetable stock with two sprigs of rosemary. She's decided on a balsamic vinegerette (sp) dressing for the fresh garden salad. And-get this-aloo paratha (Indian style potato stuffed flat bread) made with spelt flour. Did I mention the buckwheat blueberry muffins for breakfast and the home made mulligatany (sp) soup for lunch? So, not only does my live-in girlfriend support me financially, she's a hell of a cook besides working full time and attending college half time and carrying a 3.97 in Information Technology. I married well. Oops. :)

Subject: Sounds delicious From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:04:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vinaigrette and mulligatawny. I don't think your snapper's endangered anymore. By now it's probably being bio-recycled in a very politically correct and sensible way. It's nice not to waste anything. We were so busy today that we ordered Chinese take-out.

Subject: Re: A Critical View of the Ex-Premie Scene From: Thorin To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:30:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fwiw I read the site in detail (even printed it on expensive paper) and I can quite honestly say that most of the stuff printed there does NOT find any form or resonance with me. I have been reading Forum 7 for ages (after having read EPO in great detail, starting in 1999). A few things: 1. All my posts have been warmly received even if I have taken a divergent view from some of the regulars. 2. I have never ever felt that I have been subjected to mental abuse from any of the posters on F7. On the contrary I welcome feedback that points out any logical or common sense deficiencies that I display. 3. I have never made secret of the fact that I continue to meditate regularly and have never been challenged on this point. So what if many others feel that meditation is at worst a dangerous exercise or at best an exercise in self-hypnosis. For me meditation works and works well particularly with the release of the shackles of a belief system that does not stand up to srutiny. 4. There are indeed many regulars on this forum, some of which obviously have been around for a long time. There are new regulars and some of the old regulars have moved on. Nothing of this implies that there is an agenda that is set in stone. F7 is a variable and dynamic place that allows followers of Maharaji, former followers of Maharaji, aspirants and any others to congregate and share their experiences and perspectives. By its very nature the belief system of Maharaji is subjected to common sense and logical thinking. I welcome that. It is a pity that many practising premies that come to F7 seem unable to engage fully and indeed seem only to want to make inane remarks. There are some exceptions (e.g. Harry, CPG). I personally would welcome more like them – not to attack but to further understand my inheritance. 5. I find particular 'old time regulars' to be a great resource - their bull shit detector skills are needed. 6. I know of many instances where helping hands are provided for followers of Maharaji who wish to have a dialogue with former followers away from a public forum. By its nature these contacts are not disclosed publicly. Personally I am not at all surprised that such a site (a critical view of the ex-premie scene) has come into existence. The clarity that is shown on F7 and EPO will cause a reaction. Always has, always will. The ex-premie 'movement' has nothing to fear with attacks such as this as there is no 'movement', there is no committee, there is no ex-cult, simply a gathering of people that wish to share their experiences and perspectives. warmly, Thorin

Subject: ****BEST**** From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:29:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whoever wrote that asks some very penetrating questions and voices the concerns of all of those who are NOT threatened by things NOT being Black or White. My first reaction was to read it with an expression on my face as if i had been slapped... I thought it Spot on ! The Question must be asked... why does it hit me as a striking post.. i mean its hardly brave... but the problem is that when you put your name to something like that you would probably get your face bitten off by the more dogmatic. And yet that post dares to say things which I have felt, but dare not say. Thats cos I am a coward ! I have always tried to make my posts here personal and sincere. I have no axe to grind with either camp... and cerytainly I have come to regard it as my duty to post here stuff which is personal - in the hope that it might encourage others to feel safer to do so. Recent exes was a much needed sanctuary for me when I was Extremely sensitive and scared.. scared of maharaji, scared of jim.. just nervous.... but gradually after posting stuff there I would post it here too... until now I largely post here. Jim I have even come to like ! re the spirituality bit.. My own take is that things have mellowed here a lot since Mike Dettmers came on the scene.. and there is plenty of pro-meditation discussion, but nevertheless the posted anaysis rang bells in me. I guess its a Jim question mostly.. and personally I have gone from finding him very intimidating and bullying when I was a sensitive new Ex, to now, my skin being is a bit thicker, when I like him betterer. But NO one person dominates this space unless we let them. What has happened to my sentences ! I think the KEY for me is that PREMIES are UNUSED to having people disagree with them. As a PWK I would retreat from arguement into a 'Knowing arrogance' called Experience. That habit, and the fragility which it engenders in the ego and the intellect is why people like Jim are SO SCARY at first... and also why they are SO VALUABLE. BUT Dont lets make it personal. EVER. Loaf

Subject: Best example of a passive aggressive asshole From: Marshall To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:38:32 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: What? This kind of revisionist sludge makes me ill. It's the classic tactic of an abuser. Switch the blame around to the victim. Yes victim, that's what anybody who ever swallowed any of ratwit's lies is, a victim. Now anonymousie or whoever wrote this piece of crap expects the so called 'ex-premie faction' to defend it's actions, while the real troublemaker, Ratwit continues on, unabated. It's basically just a more complicated, more wordy, more mindfilled way of accusing ex's of being 'whining loosers' for talking about the bad experiences they had following a fraudulent, corpulent, embarassment. The ex-premie who doesn't just 'walk away' is viewed as the problem, not the rabid bhakti juju addict who must constantly attempt to defend their utterly defenseless position.

Subject: BEST??? I don't think so... From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:45:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is another attack on ex-premies. How can you say it's a BEST OF? Loaf, this site is anonymous. In my view it is a retaliation by someone who believes they've got some kind of superior perspective of what happens here and what's written on EPO. I disagree with you completely.

Subject: It rang bells with me, thats all From: Loaf To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:54:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It sounded 'true'. Thats all i can say. Dont start making this seem like a group thing... an ATTACK on EX Premies... I dont think so, i think it was quite an articulate analysis based on how a person felt.. but I will read it again.

Subject: You musta been drunk, Loafie From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:17:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is inaccurate, insulting, poorly written and stupid. And it 'rings a bell' with you? Well that is quite a step back from 'agreement' don't you think? So you agree we are 'brainwashing' people here? I am so pissed at you for this that you better explain line-by-line just how you agree with this whole statement or I'm gonna do something I never did before: block your ass for being such an unthinking, uncritical idiot.

Subject: Re: You musta been drunk, Loafie From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:05:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just read Gerry's next post and changed my mind about what I was going to say. Please ignore this! It's all fine now. Love, Livia

Subject: I dunno what to think From: Loaf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:57:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there is nothing to say gerry. Block me by all means. I cannot defend my initial reaction.. i am simply expressing it. I dont have any arguement. I have knee-jerk reactions to things... I havnt been encouraged to THINK about the way I feel for nearly 20 years - and suddenly you expect me to make sense !! If my post offends thee, pluck it out. It was just my initial response. I have a problem with 'authority figures' having been fucked up by one for half my life. I have a problem with 'Peer pressure' having been pressurised into a state of belief for 20 years.. without knowing it. HENCE this analysis rang some bells with me. I dont want to join a club, or tow the party line. I want to come to terms with what has happened in MY Life without pressure from anyone... most especially people in authority and with their hand on the blocking button. I KNOW that my perspective on all this stuff is wonky and personal... but its all I have. I HAVE felt pressure here in the past, rightly or wrongly. It is a FACT that I have felt it. But..as I said.. emerging RECENTLY from a 18 years of life spent 'FEELING' and 'KNOWING' does not mean I will see things the same way as people who either dipped in and out for a few years in the 70s - and who have had my 18 years to get their head round things. I value this place enormously, and if you block me.. thats fine. I think you are just knee jerking... like me. BUT I still think the issues raised in that analysis could be looked at. HAVE New and wavering Exes FELT intimidated to post here ? YES Should they still ? I dont think so. But people need time to get their heads around what for some is a massive trauma and upheaval... I have great sympathy for the many wavering exes who are reluctant to dismiss all the good things they have enjoyed with Knowledge,but still need to recognise that they have outgrown him. Things are sometimes grey in transition. oh I dunno. perhaps **BEST** was a bit strong... but it seemed to make sense to me when I read it. I am willing to learn the error of my ways.

Subject: Re: I dunno what to think From: gerry To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loafie, Of course mine was a knee-jerk response. I wrote a long, line-by-line rebuttal of the entire website contents and lost it somehow! I think I was more pissed at that than you. I'm not blocking you, just blowing off steam. Sorry. But no apology for my strong disagreement with your initial positive reaction. If I try to convince otherwise I'll be accused of 'brainwashing' you to the 'party line.' I'd rather hope you'd reconsider things on your own. I think I understand what you mean when you say it 'rang some bells for you.' You felt something. All I can say is this whole topic needs to be approached from an intellectual point of view and not with the heart. I very much admire your emotional intelligence and heart connection, which I believe to be a real thing. I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else enjoying the many proven benefits of meditation. It's the 'spiritual' spin and interpretation people place on these experiences that causes all the mischief.

Subject: thanks gerry From: Loaf To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:26:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the heart' issue is lethally and dangerously subjective by which entire nations and Premies are manipulated. I cannot see clearly beyond my own responses... I must have mis-read the 'analysis' entirely cos I DIDNT read it as an 'anti-ex' thing ! I think its fair to say that we are equally susceptable to the dynamics of groups and 'petty nationalisms' as are the PWSKs - the major difference is that we are having this conversation without(hopefully) wondering what someone else will THINK. This is a core issue for me. Dominant people (in this arena of life especially) make me want to run away and hide. My feelings as a young ex in late 1999 were so brittle that my Default was not Fight, but Flight. practicing the techniques made me hyper sensitive. being constantly 'reminded' that 'THIS WORLD was no place for me' made me hyper sensitive.. The Urge (nurtured by M) to fly from the rough and tumble of the world lead people straight back to the suckling comfort of his lotus feet. 'daddy forgive me' is a deep rooted freudian response. I cant turn this 'fragility' on and off.. and I cannot expect other people to either, which is why my tendency is to include rather than blame or attack. i am learning a lot by being here and I think we all are. The premie Operating system which he installed and nurtured in me is evolving and adaptuing and growing teeth and claws as well as real compassion. Who knows what will come next ? I think I need a hug and a kick up the arse !

Subject: Think about this, then. From: Marshall To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:45:50 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Lighten up Loafie. Gerry is only joking, he's not going to block you. Now you are comparing the web administrators 'authority' with the man who conned you into believing he was the 'lord of the Universe'? Because Gerry 'has his hand on the blocking button'? Can you see what a stretch that is? Ratwit said that you could not breathe without him! I don't care for authority figures either, but come on now. You must have woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. I've commented on this before but basically it's to bad if some super-fragile lurkers are afraid to post. Like you said that is what the recent ex's site is for. This site however: No censorship! No watering down! No holds barred! EPO/forum, Forever!

Subject: I actually quite like the idea of being blocked From: LOLOAF To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:28:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I would have made a lovely martyr

Subject: Hi Loafie From: Marianne To: LOLOAF Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:33:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've read through this entire thread, and all of your musings. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, whatever it may be. The thing that rubbed me a bit the wrong way was your comment that the article was articulate. Loafie, please read it again. A good piece of scholarship it isn't! The whole thing is filled with misspellings and poor grammar. Not only that, it purports to be some sort of analytical piece on the so called ex-premie movement. The author (my money is on Quiet) relies on undisclosed data -- emails, posts, etc. No further information is given about the 'sources' upon which this person relies. Really, the whole thing is just a long post with someone's opinion -- which is attempting to masquerade as a 'study'. The author is entitled to his/her opinion too, though I completely disagree with it. The whole thing is just an attempt to create divisions between people. The idea that exes are brain washing people! What a crock of garbage. The only person who needs their brain washed is the author. Marianne

Subject: I DARE not read it again From: Loaf To: Marianne Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:37:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am scared that if I read it again I will feel horribly embarrassed !!! I dont mind looking stupid in everybody elses eyes... but I couldnt bear it if I found out it was true !! Gerry can you delete me ?? How do i get out of this hole ? Digging furiously, Loaf

Subject: Then read this........... From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......and tell me if you find the style (or lack of) similar. Just a quickie. I want to say that I don't favor banning posters of forums, whatever the poster is. I did not vote to ban anyone, in fact I wasn't aware that there was a poll. Considering the result, my voice would not have made a difference. I will however make an exception in this case and stand in support of banning or blocking the said individauls. They are simply disruptive. Jim is obviously in need of dire brain re-examination of his adiction to posting non-stop on forums and PatC compulsive manner of shifting what he says like an iguana. Fights have happened in the past but not the way that have been going on. And to them that think otherwise, tell me what is so homophobic about asking a poofter married to another poofter whether he is the man or woman in the family. Until now I don't know the answer to this question and the reason is simply. The poofters comsider themselves to be the vitums of society. I did not tell them to be poofters, they want to be poofters and when they approach me and I ask for clarification they claim that I mistreated them. Denial is denial, whhether you are straigh, bent or an alien from Neptune. Treating people as if they don't exist, retards, braindeads is a NO GO in my world and I simply retaliate in any which way regardless, so take that ZeeZee, and I need to repeat to you the fact that exes are split because that is what they are and banning Jim [the symbol of abuse] is one issue that many people have voiced concern] As for what you want to do [SD], your the MAN of the house and we are the guests, ban us, flamme us and send us to hell. Back to my hole.......... That was posted on AG by Salam.

Subject: Re: Then read this........... From: Loafie To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:12:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat I dunno what it is all about really. It doesnt matter much to me who wrote it. I dont know who these people are really. I just have a lot to think about.

Subject: Don't worry your pretty head about it, Loafie From: PatC To: Loafie Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:15:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is for us anti-cult sleuths. Us pitbulls are here to defend you. :C)

Subject: Loafie, don't worry about it... From: Cynthia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:46:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loafie, I do understand how at first glance you related to maybe a couple of the issues of spirituality posed on that site, especially based on your difficulties with spirituality upon leaving the cult. Don't worry about it, please. And don't be embarrassed either. It's not that big of a deal. Take a deep breath and relax, I've been known to say some things I regret:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Loafie, don't worry about it... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:12:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny how that site was announced on the premie forum. Only CD can see the IP# of the poster and he's either in a daze in in cahoots. It was meant to confuse people. That was the whole point of the website. I've been following Roupells' plotting and scheming with Catweasel on LG since I blocked them from here. Of course he can't help boasting that he is a cult agent provocateur which is what got him exposed in the first place. A tidbit for him on LG: Yea deb, that's true...but I'm keeping my bells muffled right now -just watching them squark and squark. It really is funny but rather pathetic and there's so much blabber one suddenly realises that one doesn't want to give them that much time, even just looking and laughing. After all, there's a lot funnier things to enjoy. We're just off to Tony L's party so I'll be well smashed by tonight. he he (said he sounding like a total netnurd) Not sure whether to raid the Nuttererbox when I get back online or not. In fact...Cat...I know they are eagerly awaiting our next visits (known ones that is) and so I am holding back. Maybe we should just not bother at all, at least for awhile. What do you think? Why give them what they want now and play into their hands? Wasn't Knowledge enough?

Subject: Squark, Squark, Squark... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:19:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon.

Subject: Re: Squark, Squark, Squark... From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:24:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon. --- We just had them in the form of another Roupell creation, Salam, and his nutty website.

Subject: PAT -- STOP THAT!!!!!!!!!!! From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:31:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm...interesting. I guess we should expect some unwanted 'visitors' soon. --- We just had them in the form of another Roupell creation, Salam, and his nutty website. --- Christ!

Subject: Sorry, old chap From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:35:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess you just think enough like a net-savvy teenager. :C)

Subject: Maybe not THE smoking gun From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 16:24:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but food for thought: Catweasel on LG: ''The Bodgies have blocked my IP at F7.Duhhh! I'll just have to use another!'' Salam to Catweasel: ''funny on that one, I guess they will never figure out how you do it. It's too funny, I know how but won't say. hehehehe''

Subject: About spirituality From: Sir Dave To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:30:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are blocked, you can always go to The ANYTHING GOES forum. Mind you, I don't think Gerry's going to block you. You musta just caught him on a bad day. I disagree with the brainwashing mentioned on that web page in question, also with the notion that ex-premies are afraid of ''spirituality'' whatever that means. I think spirituality has become a much more personal thing now amongst ex-premies and rather than flaunting it in public, they are keeping it to themselves. Personally, I can't for the life of me see how Maharaji and spirituality could ever be connected. But maybe I'm thinking of the old fashioned sort of spirituality. For me, incidentally, my spirituality or belief is very similar to that of the ''Spiritualist Church'' or those people who hear and see things from beyond. Having had a few experiences of communications from the next world I feel a great sense that what we do here has great importance, both for ourselves and for many other people, both living and passed on.

Subject: Get lost, Dave From: Jim To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, Get lost. You have no business being here, None. How dare you block me and Pat and actually encourage those nutbars to flame and tell lies about us which is exactly what you've done: I have blocked Jim and PatC. If anyone wants to talk about them, they are welcome to. I mean, there's no law against it. I know you scoff at the notion that there's anything like a common goal here, ever was, but that just shows how shallow you are. Every last thing we've done together served that common goal. Whether it be contributing money, work, information, support or just plain time and attention, we who found in each other fellow ex followers of this particular cult have several common purposes, not just one. You yourself have often expressed your own interest in them as well. Thus you, too, have wanted to expose Maharaji for deceiving us as he did, to confront him for exploiting us and to throw up as big a warning sign as we could for anyone else still caught by or even now approaching the trap of the Lord of the Universe. You, too, have joined in and benefitted from the deconstruction and analysis of what we underwent, how and why in the cult. You, too, have enjoyed the camaraderie and simple human pleasure of this righteous joint enterprise. Something to do, in any event, a little nostalgia, a few laughs. Why not? Now, Dave, I consider you nothing but a traitor. On a limited cyber level I thought you were my friend and yes, as a friend, I feel completely betrayed by you and can't believe that you have the gall to continue to post here when you've blocked one of the FA's of this site from your own and, as evidenced above, encouraged others to spread lies and hatred about him. Likewise for me, too, of course, but your hypocrisy with respect to Pat is just that much greater. It starts when your ironically misnomered forum, Anything Goes, becomes the playroom for a few exes who care, of course, about the real thing that's brought any of us together online but who also want to just fool around a bit. Maybe, like Selene or Eb, they want to cut their teeth writing a bit, maybe even indulge in some fantasy personas. Hell, it's fun, right? Take on accents, names. Talk about something.... hell, talk about nothing. Surreal Simon could fit right in without missing a beat. And why not? Who's to say exactly why some people develop this habit or that? But they do and after some time there are AG regulars and others, like me, who just joined in from time to time when there was some OT issue I wanted to talk about. 9/11 and then the middle east became chronic issues for debate on AG. Indeed, AG served a key role post 9/11 as there was too much interest to ignore politics here, yet too much emotion to discuss politics without completely swamping the forum (which does, after all, have another purpose) and tearing apart the basic core of goodwill and commonality binding us. Not a cult, as some ridiculously stupid people say, but a group of people with common interests, goals and concerns. All cults may be one of those but each one of those sure ain't a cult! AG served another purpose too and that was an off-sides arena to hash out interpersonal conflicts as they arose without necessarily bleeding all over the forum here which, like I say, has another purpose altogether. I think even the most knee-jerk 'free speech' advocate amongst us would have to concede, for instance, that if the forum was always overwritten with collateral interpersonal arguments it would be, at minimum, harder to relate to for new people who don't know the players or the issues. New people do know the players and issues in the bigger picture here, the essential examination and discussion of the Maharaji cult, so it makes sense to keep the runway clear, to some extent, and AG served that purpose too. Most recently, however, AG got particularly nasty as some of its regular denizens took a turn for the worse. Salam was always ornery. Just ask Salam, he'll tell you. Orney, unstable, misanthropic. He needed help a year ago and several of us were there for him. But that was a long time ago, wasn't it? Since then, 9/11, and Salam, like many other ex, has views about the middle east that are strongly opposed, to say the least, from many others'. None of us in those discussions could or maybe even wanted to keep our emotions in check. Salam, however, lost all control. He didn't just disagree with something us Israel supporters said. In my case, at least, he twisted everything I said beyond recognition and just quit being logically responsive. Compare, for instance, with Dermot who also got into some heated arguments with the likes of me, Pat, Jethro, Jerry, perhaps others. The arguments, hot as ever, were at least on point and rational. There was always a thread that both parties held onto that allowed them to pull the other back to some common rational perspective, to keep the communication viable. But Salam, for whatever reason, seemed to want to throw his end of the thread into the centre of the table in defiance. Then he'd sit there smouldering, all hope of rational dialogue abandoned. Salam then started a non-stop, irrational attack, first on Pat, then on me. He completely, willfully twisted my posts and no one could make him stop. It was nuts. In fact, Salam started writing all sorts of lies and ... well, completely, ugly lies -- I don't know what else to call them -- about the forum and Pat in particular. You, of course, didn't bat an eyelash. What a natural magnet, then, to attract Deborah who has really, as anyone with half a brain can see, lost it. Poor, Poor Deb. I don't know what her real problem is but she definitely has one. Let me tell you something about her. Deborah has no idea where any of her family is. None. She hasn't just lost contact, she claims, at least, to not know where a single stitch is save for one distant uncle in Calgary. And much as I encouraged her to, she was reluctant to even contact him. She still hasn't, I bet. Now, ask yourself, what could possibly be behind that? Can you imagine? She lives as a middle-aged permanent resident in a youth hostel of all places. She doesn't have a dime to her name and yes, I did indeed lend her several hundred dollars not once but twice to keep her from being evicted while she awaited her next student loan. Deborah talks about all the wonderful friends and social life she had in Miami and nothern california. Where are her friends? In all the time I knew her here in town she didn't seem to have any. Not one. I invited her to a few parties, tried to introduce her to some people, always welcomed her to bring along anyone she wanted. Sorry, but I got the distinct impresson that there is no one for Deborah. Not here, not there, not anywhere. Now why is that, Dave? What do you think's going on here? Do you see any mental health issues here or not? Okay, so at one point, when I'd enough of Deb's threats to go to the police with some completely stupid complaint that Gerry had threatened her, after I warned her that I'd spill the beans if she didn't shut up, at which point she obliquely conceded that she had in fact said something but that it didn't count as a threat because it was 'only verbal', I told the truth about her own threat to have Pat killed, of all things. Now, you yourself have said that, between the two of us, you believe me, not her. Yet my so-called 'sociopathic' and 'completely deluded insanity' are behind that 'lie' according to her. And this is the kind of talk about me you encourage while you've blocked me from responding! Now Deb's telling another specific lie, namely that she has emails and posts proving that the 'inner circle' don't want any media attention to our cause because we're afraid of being accused of libel. That's a lie, Dave, but it's free to fester on AG, unchallenged because, once again, you've allowed it. Then there's Selene. You asked on Symp what she had done to bring her into the fray and promised to 'defend to the end' her honour. Well, I answered you, hoping, I guess, for a rational discussion on the issue. I told you quite specifically that Selene, who herself only exitted with the help of EPO and the forum was, for some strange reason, joiing the monkey pileup on LG discouraging Isabella from talking rationally with me. Plus she was blowing air-kisses (Pat's term) with the very premies and trolls that were simultaneously leading that pileup. But you didn't defend her rationally. Rather, you just ducked. Likewise, with your own comment about how the real ex work is all done and only us 'church ladies' (another Pat coinage) were bothering to keep going. You ducked and hemmed and hawed and really just disparaged us further by not even having the common decency to discuss that insult openly and honestly. When the CAC site went up and they had that picture of your daughter, we all shared your concern, cared for you, and respected your wishes to fold completely before the menacing glare of the cult. You had to do what you had to do. We all honoured that. And that, Dave, was because we honoured and respected you. Here, now, I feel completely, one hundred per cent betrayed by you. When all it took from you was a little common sense and a clear head, instead you led with that capricious, self-important side you have. In the end, you chose the side of confusion and evasion. And now you've offered a sheltered environment to people like Deborah who, even you have admitted you think is a liar and who you yourself has seen can lash out in crazy paranoia. Shame on you, Dave. I don't know what else to say but shame on you indeed.

Subject: Priceless From: the knot tightens To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 21:44:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: STARK STARINGGGGG FUCKING PRICELESS!!! How many is that who have jumped ship now Jim? one for the archives here lads :)

Subject: NEW ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY From: PatC To: the knot tightens Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 02:04:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am sick and tired of anonymous snipers. From now on I will block anyone who makes anonymous insulting posts like this. If you are a regular who does not have the guts to say stuff under your usual name or alias - too bad. To be unblocked you will have to email me. This is my ''shoot first and ask questions later troll elimination policy.''

Subject: Blocking versus deleting.. From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:39:56 (PDT) Email Address: Nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Back when I was co-adminning with Anth, we found the best way of dealing with trolls was not by blocking their ip's (which sometimes leads to blocking exes with the same ip), but by going through every post and deleting - weeding them out, like a gardener. They pretty soon give up even trying. Just a suggestion... Anyway, I realise that approach requires considerable time daily. If you would like Moley and I to help (weekdays only), we would be happy to oblige, whatever your chosen strategy. One way or the other, 'shoot on sight' is the only best policy if you don't want your natural tolerance and better nature exploited daily. Give us an email if you'd like a couple of deputies.

Subject: Re: Blocking versus deleting.. From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 18:39:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Nige. This particular tactic (snipe and run) needs to be dealt with more severely than by just deleting. I tried that and spent too much time deleting. That's just what the cultweasels want. They had me jumping like a puppet on a string. So from now on I will block all malicious anonymice. If it's an ex they can email me to be unblocked. Though why an ex would do something so underhanded- I don't know.

Subject: Blocking versus deleting.. From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 16:34:51 (PDT) Email Address: Nige@redcrow.dm Message: Back when I was co-adminning with Anth, we found the best way of dealing with trolls was not blocking their ip's (which sometimes leads to blocking exes with the same ip), but by going through every post and deleting - weeding them out, like a gardener. They pretty soon give up even trying. Just a suggestion... Anyway, I realise that approach requires considerable time daily. If you would like Moley and I to help (weekdays only)

Subject: EXCELLENT!! -- but ........ From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:00:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .... how are we going to reprogram their brains? Perhaps we'll have to use that new software that gets them in their sleep. It's expensive but, as we all know, Chuck, Gerry, JM and JHB have made a fortune off these sites. It's time for them to give something back, don't you think? (Now, do I really have to keep putting up a stupid :) everytime I try to be funny?!)

Subject: Yes From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:09:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Now, do I really have to keep putting up a stupid :P everytime I try to be funny?!'' Probably. It took me a long time to realize that my jokes were often missed. Not everyone has read as much and understood irony and this medium has severe limitations. To be understood irony needs context and most people read here fairly randomly and the context may have been forgotten by the time they get round to your post. Now, as for your little scheme - let's take it up with the underground committee.

Subject: Oops! I forgot my emotikon - :P [nt] From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 13:11:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Can I co-sign your post? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for the taking the time to write that. Pointing out the obvious is always tedious. Thank you. I have always been able to post on AG even if I was blocked but have chosen not to because I am not welcome there (that's fine - I have no wish to be part of that club) and because it is an irrelevant backwater - Salam's personal swamp.

Subject: Me too.... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:55:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the past I never looked at AG unless this forum was down and I recently posted when the ex-ex arguments took place. But I also feel betrayed by the double standard Dave has placed upon Jim and Pat by blocking them while others trash them there. I haven't been blocked yet, but David did tell me he would if I didn't post to his liking. I don't really care about that because as you aptly put it Pat, it is a backwater and holds no interest to me. The current friends of Dave at AG have been having some very nasty fun at my expense. So I've taken the advice of a lawyer friend from SF who told me to ignore them.:) And I've personally defrocked Dave of the 'Sir' title. Cynthia

Subject: I would too, except.. From: Nigel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: If I did that, someone, somewhere would note it down as evidence: four exes in agreement (no, make that three exes in agreement with Jim) is irrefutable evidence for the reality of an F7 cult. Never mind that Jim's post was factually flawless and reasonable in its argument would hold no water with likes of 'priceless', who even, no doubt correctly in the eyes of the AG monkey contingent, sees such evidence in Jim's post alone. (I found his impotent spluttering hysterical - in every sense - expecially given the detailed, articulate nature of the post he was responding to. 'Priceless', indeed... It seems almost seems a shame to block him.) So, no, sorry I couldn't possibly co-sign Jim's piece, even though I agree with every bloody word, and I am appalled that Pat and Cynthia could behave in such a slavering, cult-like manner :-)

Subject: Re: I would too, except.. From: Cynthia To: Nigel Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 10:12:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the programming Nigel. We've all merged into one big scientific brain/mind and on F7 there are rules. If this is a cult then why can't understand the jokes at the top of this forum? British humour...Have the Brits got an inner circle thing going? I'm complaining to Gerry.;) Cynthia

Subject: Ain't that a fact, Nigel? From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:14:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why do you think I try to pick a fight with Jim about rock-n-roll all the time? Anything to make it look like I am not in total agreement with him but his reasoning and logic are usually spot on - so how can I disagree with him. But because sane rational people agree with each other - all of a sudden, we're a cult. Hoo, boy! :C)

Subject: Yep, you're psychic! :P [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:03:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Disgruntled Ex-Ex-Premies.... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:36:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not surprised that this anonymous site so suddenly appeared on LG. How could anyone find it if it wasn't an inside job? Along with that on LG a site was posted by Mili which was sponsored by the Scientologists. The subject? Ted Patrick the former deprogrammer. When questioned on the credibility of the site because of the Scientology connection, Mili said basically it didn't matter because the information about Patrick is credible Here's the url on LG: http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/false_exp/patrick1.html On Rick Ross's website there is an excerpt from Snapping by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman which explains the progression of his deprogramming techniques. I've posted that link here. If the Critique of Ex-Premie isn't a backlash then don't know what backlash means. Cynthia P.S. Ger...give Loaf a chance:) Ross Page On Ted Patrick from Snapping www.rickross.com/reference/deprogramming/deprogramming7.html

Subject: a point of view From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 08:02:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the basis of reading what's being said on the other forums, I'm getting the impression that we're being seen as a faction that doesn't allow any discussion of the subjects of meditation or spirituality. Personally I don't feel that's true; I've read a number of long threads here where people have expressed views favourable to meditation, including the Knowledge. I don't think it would be a healthy situation if people here felt in any way afraid or embarrassed to admit that they still practise the meditation, enjoy it and feel some benefit from it. Frankly I would be surprised if anyone really was embarrassed or afraid, unless they read some of the conversations between Jim and Dep and got the idea that Jim would jump down their throat if they mentioned views favourable to meditation. I've mentioned quite a few times that I do still meditate and haven't been attacked for it. I suspect Jim only attacks when he sees what he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality. As he is a rationalist and an atheist I understand where he's coming from - my partner has very similar views and we agree to differ on certain subjects! Anyway, to come to my point - I would really welcome a discussion on meditation, and all the views pro and con. After all, it's what got us all into this in the first place, and we must all have feelings about what the meditation was/is to us, and where we are in relation to it now. I would also be interested to know if anyone here has read a book called 'The Artist's Way' by Julia Cameron. I've just started reading it and am finding it quite illuminating. Cameron runs workshops designed to awaken and stimulate creativity. Her main idea seems to be based on what she calls the 'morning pages' and the 'artist's date'. The morning pages are something you do every morning - basically you write 3 pages daily in a stream-of-consciousness fashion, basically whatever comes out. The artist's date is something you keep with yourself weekly - basically you try to take yourself off once a week and do something potentially inspiring. (Visit a gallery, see a movie etc. - whatever you feel like you'd really like to do that week.) Anyway, apparently the daily writing clears your head so that another sort of consciousness frees itself up; the sort of consciousness that inspiration and creativity come from. And the artist's date is supposed to give you some external inspiration. Anyway, apparently it works. Writers lose their writer's block, dancers find themselves inspired to dance freely again and composers start composing again. It all sounds a bit too good to be true, I know, but there's probably something in it. Interestingly, she likens the 'morning pages' as having a similar effect to meditation. Anyway, reading it has triggered off an interesting thought process, in that the practise of satsang/service/meditation probably did originally have the effect of altering our consciousness for the better. I do remember burst of creativity and inspiration in the early days. Some really great music was written, plays were written and acted - stuff happened. As Thorin posted a couple of days ago - without Maharaji continually attempting to bring the focus back back to him we could have gone on possibly as a fairly inspired community of people, living with awareness, creativity and even love. Especially if we had managed to turn it all outwards and used it as a genuine force of good in the world. The point I'm making is that the state of creativity that Julia Cameron is trying by her method to get people to achieve, is the same thing that we were all tapping into. It's a state of being, within us and eminently desirable and attainable. The argument here is that Maharaji never had the right to claim any monopoly on the enabling of that state. And also, of course, that he has made a vast amount of money on the back of his earlier claims to be Perfect Master, and the only one capable of enabling that state. As Bob Mishler said in the radio interview - he found it truly sad when he saw premies attributing the source of that state to Maharaji when it was clearly within them all along. The argument with premies is that they still consider Maharaji to be somehow behind that state. We here no longer do. Obviously it would be preferable if we could all live and let live, but it seems to be very difficult to do so. Some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult, and some of the premies wish to persuade the exes that they have lost the plot and are in a new cult of their own making! This wouldn't matter only that the arguments seem to be becoming more and more embittered and unpleasant. Surely if most of us are primarily interested in attaining a state of clarity and awareness, these vitriolic disputes are unnecessary and becoming increasingly unproductive. I suppose the problem is that factions have now arisen and each 'side' has become more and more entrenched, with accusations of brainwashing on both sides. Brainwashing can't take place where there is free and open discussion, so all I'm trying to say here is let's make sure the discussion here remains truly free and open. After all, no one here wants to take on a new mindset, and clarity and awareness should always be the goal. (Without, however, becoming wishy-washyishly tolerant of obvious bullshit!) My view, for what it's worth, and probably muddlingly written, but it's a Sunday after all. Love to all, Livia

Subject: Getting back to you finally From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 01:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Frankly I would be surprised if anyone really was embarrassed or afraid, unless they read some of the conversations between Jim and Dep and got the idea that Jim would jump down their throat if they mentioned views favourable to meditation. ''I've mentioned quite a few times that I do still meditate and haven't been attacked for it. I suspect Jim only attacks when he sees what he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality.'' One of the reasons that I appreciate Jim so much is that he critiques the cult and spirituality in general from the POV of an ordinary person working in the ordinary world where BS does not hold up to scrutiny. Quite a few of us do that here which is why it seems so sad and strange when the premies here don't understand that. They do not realize that, from an ordinary rational person's perspective, they are in a peculiar cult. I still do the techs and I've talked a lot about meditation, more in the past than now, as I finally figured that I really did not like talking about it because I had not yet formulated my own thoughts and was simply modifying primitive pre-scientific concepts about it. One day, when I've found my own thoughts about it, I will write more. Jim has not attacked me about it but yes he has criticised Dep and others probably for what, as you put it so well, ''he perceives as lazy unexamined concepts masquerading as indisputable reality.'' I also can't stand being talked to as if I am expected to understand and make the same assumptions about this spiritual stuff. Jim knows Dep well and I feel is disappointed that his old friend is not more adventurous in his thinking. I know I find Dep painfully lazy - a nice enough guy but one who expects people to agree with him eventhough he makes no effort to think in anything but cliches. You again: ''Obviously it would be preferable if we could all live and let live, but it seems to be very difficult to do so. Some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult, and some of the premies wish to persuade the exes that they have lost the plot and are in a new cult of their own making!'' Well, in everyday life, I do live and let live with the premies I know like sfjim and CT, which is why you don't find me arguing with them on LG. They're welcome to their religion. But the moment a premie comes here they must expect arguments. That's the whole purpose of this forum - to critique the cult. Not only ''some of the exes here wish to convince the premies that they are deluded re Maharaji, and in a cult.'' That's what most of us do. That's what we're here for and of course we expect the premie apologists to think the worst of us. You again: ''This wouldn't matter only that the arguments seem to be becoming more and more embittered and unpleasant. Surely if most of us are primarily interested in attaining a state of clarity and awareness, these vitriolic disputes are unnecessary and becoming increasingly unproductive.'' Back up - the arguments with premies aren't becoming more vitriolic. they've always been that way. Why? Because the only premies who have posted on F7 regularly are professional cult disinformation specialists. The last thing that they want is clarity. They come here to muddy the waters deliberately. This is not something that is only happening now and which you are beginning to observe. A quick scan of the archives will show you that it's been happening almost since day one of the ex presence on-line. Of course we want an atmosphere of intelligent questioning and discussion here. You, Jim, Cynthia and a dozen other exes provide that. I think you may still be laboring under the misunderstanding that the premies that you have talked to here and on LG are ordinary decent premies. That is not the case. The Docs and Cats are cult agent provocateurs. They are not here for open debate leading to clarity. They are here to stifle debate and muddy the waters. Most of the premies on LG are figments of Roupell/Doc's imagination. And, even if they are bona fide premies like California Premie Guy, they come off sounding like weasels. For instance he claimed to know Chuck and me but did not have the decency to email us and say hi. Regular decent premies don't post on the net. Even CPG was playing his own little game - probably wanting to show himself how confident he is that he is not in a cult and that he could hold his own against us. As for the faction of exes accusing us of stifling debate about spiritual matters - well, people like Deb and Salam used to once be the biggest scoffers at spiritual talk. I'm sure you've got your own ideas about what they are up to. I know that I am quite stumped at their about-face. I've got theories but...well, don't we all? Anyway, I really appreciate your lucid writing and sane perspective, Livia.

Subject: Let's be clear about this, though From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, A truly interesting and fair post, as so many of yours are, and I'll take a look at the Amazon site at least about Cameron's book. Although I always thought that first post of the morning, where you're groggily jumping down the throat of a naive cartoon character was just the ticket for clearing my imagination's palate. :) But, to be clear, when you write: I suppose the problem is that factions have now arisen and each 'side' has become more and more entrenched, with accusations of brainwashing on both sides. Brainwashing can't take place where there is free and open discussion, so all I'm trying to say here is let's make sure the discussion here remains truly free and open. After all, no one here wants to take on a new mindset, and clarity and awareness should always be the goal. I just have to say that the cult, its leader, his followers and all of their friends can parrot back our accusations and criticisms all they want, it doesn't mean there's even a slight reason to take them seriously. As we all know, the only reason -- the only reason -- premies accuse us of being a cult or 'cult-like' is because we say that of them. The only reason they accuse us of 'brainwashing' is because we say that's what Maharaji did to us. Period. It's exactly like the classic little kid's retort, I know you are but what am I? but all the more pathetic seeing as these are supposedly adults talking about the arguably most important association in their lives, not little kids with no other way to defend themselves. Sure, it's good to remind ourselves that we should never curtail discussion about things that matter, never try to pressure anyone into thinking anything. But that's not happening here AT ALL. Take spirituality, for instance. Say, for argument's sake that I think it's worthless, dangerous and stupid. I hate it, hate it and hate it. Hate it with a passion that itself might seem over the top. That's just me. Mr. I-hate-spirituality. (This is hypothetical, don't forget :)) Then say there's someone else named Loaf, for instance. Loaf is so spiritual he's abandoned all punctuation AND grammar because they were too restrictive for what he 'really' had to say. (Loaf, again, this is just hypothetical. I could have made up names but I'm just borrowing yours and mine). Say we interact. Now what in the world is wrong with us, not just debating our various viewpoints but even doing so with passion, if it arises? Are we so scary to each other that we think someone's going to lunge out through their monitor and do some serious nose-tweaking? Maybe rough up our hair? Pull our ears? It's just discussion, for god's sake! If spirituality thrives best in the murkier shadows of innuendo, superstition, ambiguity and paradox, that's its problem. Hey, it had its day. This is the twentieth century now. It's time to rock! :)

Subject: Re: Let's be clear about this, though From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:00:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, thanks for that. And actually you made me lol with your image of lunging through monitors, hair pulling and nose tweaking. And yes, I know it's all in cyberspace and they can't really get you. But as Cynthia expressed so well on LG the other day - some of those posts over there are almost resonant of evil. I think I was just feeling a bit sensitive yesterday. I'd read a few of the premie posts over there and the vitriol of it all was beginning to get me down a bit. I mean, in my whole life I've never been called a bitch (doesn't mean I've never behaved like one I hasten to add - but nobody's ever called me one). Until Mili the other day. I mean, who cares, but when you've been having a bad day, as I had been that day, reading that barrage of insults against Cynthia, who I happen to think is wonderful, and you and PatC and me and in fact anyone who posts here and then goes over there, leaves you with a pretty unpleasant taste in your mouth. And then I felt I did have to question whether we do allow totally free discussion here - and in the final analysis I think we do, and I think I made that (fairly) clear in the post above. We just need to be aware that by jumping down the throat of anyone who retains unexamined attitudes about spirituality, we may unwittingly deter others of a sensitive disposition from posting - that's all. But yes, you're basically right, it's all healthy argument and debate, which can only be good in the end. And I suppose if you go over there and try to talk to that lot, you need a tough skin, and mine isn't, always. But I'm getting there! About Cameron's book - be warned - she has a fairly 'spiritual' outlook. But if you can ignore the references to God and spirituality, she makes some very good suggestions for awakening your creativity that make practical good sense and sound extremely user-friendly, and she uses some good psychotherapeutic techniques too. But you're right - posting here on a daily basis is also very good for sharpening up the mind and keeping the inspiration flowing! I think you personally might find the Cameron book a bit new-agey for your personal taste! Thanks for your infallible clarity and exactitude(!), and love to you Livia XX

Subject: Wrong on two counts Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:09:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''Hey, it (spirituality) had its day. This is the twentieth century now. It's time to rock!'' It's the 21st century and rock's dead or at least on it's last legs. I hope. Please god. Please.

Subject: Err...Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:23:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's now the 21st century. Isn't it? Want to argue?:)

Subject: Shit, I should have read you first [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 21:11:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Joke spoiler! [nt] From: Jim To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 13:31:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great post again, Livia From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll get back to you on this one after the breaking news about Salam's latest mischief.

Subject: Re: a point of view From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:31:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the aspects of life with knowledge when I first became involved was the freshness of the experience that people were having; actions were voluntary and the spoken word was simple , immediate and innocent for the most part. As time went on, people became stiff, programmed, inarticulate (if they were allowed to speak) and formalised. Few people here discount the experience of meditation, and the well of inspiration satsang provided at one time; but the fetters and strictures of dogma and cultism eroded the natural and replaced it with the contrived, the forced and the manipulated. Rather than lead, we were bullied; when we should have been nurtured, we were subjugated and humiliated to the point where we doubted our own thoughts and feelings. Instead of being elevated to a point where we had a clear perspective of our existence, we became seperate, isolated and numb. Where we could have helped one another, we clawed over each other to get a front row seat. When we could have bought new clothes for our children, we bought an airline ticket to hall in a faraway land. When we needed to open up and empathise, we put up a pseudo-spiritual barrier of aloofness and rejected our place as givers in the human chain of give and take. Many are considering returning to maharaji? For what reason?

Subject: Re: a point of view From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 09:58:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Many are considering returning to maharaji? For what reason? It is much easier to be a programmed cult-member than to look rationally at the facts of one's involvement in a cult. Self-examination is not an easy thing to do especially when one has spend years and often decades following a personality cult guru. In that respect many people who have tried to reject Maharaji no longer see it as viable because: 1. They did get involved with a cult which can be a shame-based experience to reveal to others in the real world as well as the world of premies; 2. It is much easier walk away from the exiting process and forget everything, i.e., live in denial, than to do an in depth self-examination of what happened to oneself while caught up in a cult; 3. Going back is easier than doing the above-mentioned self-examination because the emotional, spiritual, and intellectual repercutions can be quite painful at least in the beginning of the exiting process; 4. Currently there is an ex-ex-premie alliance which has formed among former forum posters and premies who post on LG. It's an alliance which, IMO, has evolved because of certain people who became disgruntled for personal reasons with individuals here on F7; 5. It's easier not to think and Maharaji condones not thinking, he encourages it; and 6. The belief system (Maharajism religion) is still too engrained and the resultant anger and hatred toward Maharaji and his cult are then projected onto EPO, and the Ex-Premies forum.

Subject: It's true about PAM's speaking out.... From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As Disculta pointed out below, it does seem to be true for so many people who have now been able to exit the cult, that the biggest, or at least one of the biggest factors in their being able to exit and heal their life has been the first hand testimonies of people who actually spent time with maharaji himself. It there are people reading but not posting, and you have had first hand experiences with maharaji or ev that can help with the process, you should know that it can be very helpful to those who are needing and wanting to exit the cult... For myself, Michael Dettmers revelations were the most helpful, along with Donners and the Mischler interview.... I agree that the cult is pretty much finished in the west...at least that is what I'm picking up in the USA...but there still is a real need to help existing premies who are still in, to get out (remember, we all were premies once)....I also agree that maharaji needs to stand and account for what he has done, and epo is the most valuable tool for that right now..... Thank you to all those who have contributed in whatever way you have been able to...epo does make a difference, and maharaji knows it...

Subject: That agree with us From: Only the ones To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:46:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The rest are irrelevant, no matter how many of them there are.

Subject: Come on now... Who or whom are 'us?' From: Tonette To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:45:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And the rest, who are they? Then I can begin to understand what you mean by irrelevance to which you refer. This is a forum and there is anonymity here. Guaranteed. Won't you do the forum a favor and expound/clarify a bit what you just wrote? Obviously you gave your post some thought, how about giving said thought a few more type strokes. Awaiting your reply, Tonette

Subject: whoops, nt ignore From: Tonette To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:38:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Are you being sarcastic? From: Jim To: Only the ones Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:52:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder, do you have a name? Why not use it? Are you ashamed of what you just said? Then why hide? Hell, for me, I'd like to hear from any and all PAMs, no matter what they think. Wouldn't you? If they agree with me, fine. If they don't, great -- we can talk about it. Or does that scare you somehow?

Subject: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:35:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir Dave recently posted a sermon saying that exism was finished; that it was time to move on. I sort of agreed with him. The cult is finished in the west insofar as no more significant expansion can take place anymore thanks to EPO and the ex movement. I felt that the only thing left to do now is to be here for any premies who leave. But then I catch a glimpse of something that makes me angry and I think to myself that the ex show isn't over till this fat man sings. I will keep at it until I see Rawat come clean, apologise, give back all the money that he stole from sincere premies under false pretenses and do some soul-cleansing penance. In other words, there are still wrongs to be righted and justice to be done. Most of the time I don't have anger toward him. A few weeks ago on LG one of my premie friends there asked what I was so angry about and I really hunted for something to say but could not find anything that made me feel any anger. Most of the time I just feel intellectually irritated at Rawat's scam but every now and then something is said here that triggers off some full-blown anger at him. In a thread below welcoming a newbie who wanted to know what made us leave, Lesley said: ''There was a line written by an ex about a batch of burnt cookies and not trusting Maharaji to peel a potato that struck a huge chord with me.'' Marshal responded: ''As I understand it the 'burnt cookies' crap started with gmj himself of all things. At a late 90's gathering gmj said that his current premies were akin to a 'batch of burnt cookies' and then he threatened to get a 'new batch' of premies. Raw and uncooked I suppose.'' Livia chimed in: ''Well that's nice, isn't it! He brainwashes us with a load of old Hindu concepts for 20 years and then when we find it hard to move on swiftly to the new revised model, suggests blithely that he'll drop us all in favour of a new batch he can brainwash with a different story. ''Then I suppose in a few years he'll need to get rid of that lot too and start on another lot, and so on and so on. ''The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants. ''Looking at what signs of life exist over at LG (with only a couple of exceptions) you can see the evidence plain and clear.'' Just reading this suddenly made me angry. The gall of this piece of low-life cognac-swilling, blonde-bonking, money-grubbing hypocrite hit me. I'd never thought of the burnt cookies satsang in quite that way. Of course he meant that we were a bunch of old hippies who had glommed onto his Hindu crap but were now obstacles to the expansion of his business because he had meantime re-invented himself as the CEO of his western firm. And Livia is absolutely right when she says: ''The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants.'' You have to be either a very self-loathing and dishonest person or completely selective in your understanding of what he says to stomach Rawat's crap. Yesterday I got a birthday email from a premie whom I have known for decades but who abandoned me when I told her I was leaving Rawat over a year ago. I have watched this dear friend deteriorate over the past few years from being one of the most original artists and free-thinkers into a squashed and broken and sadly lifeless empty shell. It is heart-breaking but there is nothing that I can do about it because she thinks of Rawat as the Master and herself as a burnt cookie who needs to be an invisible nonentity lest she become an obstacle in Rawat's way. The only thing that will cure her of this sickness is to realize that Rawat is the lardy doughboy that I now see him as. It's like trying to tell a battered wife that her husband is sick and twisted. The more I criticise the more she defends. This is the behaviour that we see on LG. Maybe the ''burnt cookies'' thingy isn't much to get steamed up about but it's little glimpses like that into Rawat's arrogance, selfishness and greed that suddenly give me a view of the whole picture and the revolting man that we once worshipped as the master. This show ain't over till the fat man sings. And he will sing if there is any justice. Hopefully after he has been exposed and fessed up he will then have to sing for his supper. Yes, I really loathe and detest Rawat.

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Blondie To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 14:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stay angry Pat, but do be careful in your rage not say hurtful things about the innocents - I MEAN THE BONKING REFERENCE lololo

Subject: Er, sorry Blondie From: PatC channeling Dagwood To: Blondie Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:34:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wasn't insulting the blondes but the bonker of blondes.

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Inside Edition To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:56:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I feel EXACTLY the same way, Pat. I used to really believe that Rat-wat was the Lord. That's what I was looking for in the early 70's, and that's exactly what he was sold to me as. Now he says he never was - fucking unbelievable! Those remaining hard-core PAM's STILL DO believe he is the Lord (and are still kissing his feet in Amaroo), and are literally scared shitless to do anything whatsoever to piss him off and be cast out of the inner circle. I have seen this with my own eyes. Conversely, they will do ANYTHING he asks to stay in the inner circle, some of the UNSUCCESSFUL results of which we have seen right here in cyberspace. I believe in the Law of Karma, and I am definately going to stick around to watch the wheel come full circle. Rat-wat IS responsible for his actions, just like anyone else.

Subject: Of course they still believe he's god From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 19:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even I did when I exed. I just figured so what if he's god - I still can't stand him. I'll just have to do without god. Why do I think that premies still think he is god? They won't say and do double back-flips to avoid talking about it. Why? Because they've been told by the Master not to have ANY concepts about who he is. He is ''you know who.'' Why do premies still think he is god? Because of the ''self-knowledge.'' The premies have already been conditioned by Rev Rawat's religion to associate the enjoyable ''feelings'' which the meditation releases with something divine and to then attribute it to the massa. Those same ''feelings'' stimulate the imagination. They are trapped by their own superstitious imaginations and limited by their intellectual laziness and moral cowardice as I was until recently.

Subject: Re: Of course they still believe he's god From: Ismic To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:53:05 (PDT) Email Address: ismic@btopenworld.com Message: Those same ''feelings'' stimulate the imagination. They are trapped by their own superstitious imaginations and limited by their intellectual laziness and moral cowardice as I was until recently. Are you really suggesting that you have never experienced true love and devotion? Progress prc.org

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: Cynthia To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 13:32:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also feel this way. There are so many, many things Maharaji has done that stripped innocent people of their lives. When I read the Mishler interview today it struck me again that he's never cared about anyone but himself, and that includes his wife and kids. He uses and abuses again and again. Who the hell does this Prem Pal Rawat thinks he is anyway? He comes to my country, sets up shop, gets filthy rich on me and thousands of others' hard labor and donations, then has the unmitigated gall to say we're burnt cookies? I don't think so, Maharaji. The more I learn about Prem Pay Rawat the more I understand that he is nothing but an ego driven two year old who lives in a middle-aged body. The ironical thing is that I never wanted a guru and never cared about the hindu trappings either. Then the premies have the equally unmitigated nerve to come here to harrass us! That pisses me off. All Maharaji ever did during the time of my deepest dedication and devotion to him is ridicule everyone around him. He told us were were nothing. He deprived us of normal lives through manipulating our devotion to him. He enforced that by insisting we live in ashrams in poverty, working to support his ass. That is pure narcissism. The fact that he is obsessed with wealth, has the nerve to publish a vanity piece in a an obscure magazine (Leaders) as if he is a 'somebody' in this world really has angered me. Maharaji is a nobody who has injured so many people just in my country, the U.S., as well as all over the world. Prem Rawat owes ME. He owes so many people who gave up their lives for him then flippantly discounts us all as burnt cookies or rotten vegetables. He is a gutless wonder. Everything wrong that has happened over these 30 years lies in his lap yet he is such a coward he is unable to accept any responsibility for anything he has have done. He is the lowest form of life that could exist in a human body. A parasite. And I used to PRAY to IT. This anger doesn't occupy my entire life, I've gone beyond that. Yet, when I think about just DECA, just that one huge illegal and warped 'project' I want to spit in his face. It's not over. This is far from over. I agree, let him pay us back for his crimes. Let him work as a commercial pilot. Strip him of his riches, cars, and golden toilets. This is far from over.

Subject: Uh, Cynth, hate to nitpick, but... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 19:03:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let him work as a commercial pilot. Would you want to fly with Rawat at the wheel?

Subject: Re: Why I'm an angry ex-premie From: DeProGram Anand JI To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 23:15:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am an angry ex-premie because I was lied to and decieved. I was a sincere seeker of truth, love and higher consciousness. I was given false hopes and exploited for what I believed was a noble cause, to establish World Peace. This happened I believe because M allowed himself to be corrupted by the absolute power that he had over his followers and he used his absolute power to influence i.e. (the belief that he was a true spirtual master or incarnation of God) to feed his insatiable appetite for wealth, power and prestige. To those of us who believe in God this is the worst kind of betrayal. Because it robs us of our faith and our ability to trust in a higher power. I believe there is a special place in hell for those that prey on and exploit others sincere desire to live a life more closely attuned the wisdom of their higher selves.

Subject: I am Curious X From: gerry To: DeProGram Anand JI Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:07:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Howdy DeProGram Anand Ji, I know a little about the mind/brain thingy and I'll go for 'heart intelligence' as the seat of emotions, and now you're telling me I gotta get attuned to this other feller also, this 'higher self' guy? I don't know, maybe I don't even have one. Ever think of that? I did meet a pookah once, though. So I got that going for me. Which is good. :)

Subject: Re: I am Curious X From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:57:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A pookah is a Celtic spirit. I guess the famous one is 'Harvey' of the Jimmy Steward movie with the same name. That's not the one I met. I didn't catch this pookah's name. I met him very late one night at a bar in an old Irish tavern on the Lower East Side...

Subject: Oh, well then you're definitely spiritual :P [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 15:11:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What the hell is a pookah? [nt] From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:31:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hi! From: Cynthia To: DeProGram Anand JI Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How are you? I just noticed your post and wanted to say I've missed you here and hope you are doing well. Love, Cynthia

Subject: Mishler telephone transcript now on EPO From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 06:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The telephone interview between two recently deprogrammed premies and Bob Mishler is now on EPO. In some ways it is more direct than the Radio interview, in that Bob knows he's talking to people who understand the context. Many thanks to Thorin for converting the tape to mp3 format and uploading the files; cq for his excellent and painstaking transcription; Steve (not a forum poster) for keeping the tape all these years and letting us have a copy; and of course Bob, Peter and Ellen for having the conversation in the first place. To those who dismiss this as being over 20 years old, you should understand that this was a very significant period. Maharaji refused to take Mishler's advice, and instead embarked on a period of demanding complete devotion and surrender to him. The ripples of this are still being felt today (certainly in my mind). BTW, I'm not certain when Mishler died. Was it 1979? John. Mishler telephone interview www.ex-premie2.org/pages/mishlertel.htm

Subject: OUCH! From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To think that I spent my formative years living up to the public declarations of a total pisshead! Mishler should have spoken up earlier. What a tendency I must have had to delude myself and project. Bless us all. Love Bryn

Subject: PremRawat is a major league Asshole (nt) From: Dave Punshon To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:17:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: not for having money, but... From: Dave Punshon To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 04:27:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for deceiving so many people through being an absolute hypocrite for the past 30 odd years... and yes, he should return all of the money that he has basically ripped off from premies during those years. Of course, this is the equivalent of expecting Sadam to love President Bush, so it will (probobly) never happen, but hey, scientists unexpectedly found a frozen mammoth so who knows ;)

Subject: Re: Mishler telephone transcript now on EPO From: Livia To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 17:01:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'But he lives a very, very opulent lifestyle and he just really just doesn't ... to me it's greed - y'know, I feel sorry for him because he got programmed into this role, I don't see how there can be a happy ending for anybody involved, including him - ultimately. Because he's not even happy now, that's the irony of the whole thing, I mean ... consumerism is like a disease with him. He no sooner has the object of his desire, whether it's a new Maserati or Rolls Royce or whatever - Aston Martin - he's thinking about the next thing: it's got to be a helicopter, it's got to be a Grummond Gulfstream 2, it's got to be this or that. I mean ... he just craves all of these symbols of wealth that, once he has them, he can't even use them. I mean, what can you do? Even when I was there - and I'm sure it's gotten worse since then - there was not enough garage space to keep all of his cars - and we had like six garages, OK?' I was just reading this and a memory came back to me, of a video we used to watch years ago. Maharaji was being given a birthday present - it was a car, I think it was a Maserati. You saw his face as he first saw the car - it broke into the most incredible smile of happiness. And I remember thinking 'I wish he wouldn't be quite so thrilled over a car' (because he was always telling us about how material possessions didn't bring happiness). But then you'd quickly remember that his happiness was because of the love of the premies that went towards the buying of that car - we'd all contributed towards it. How hollow to realise that it was really the car he was ecstatic about all along, and that the love of the premies was used just as a tool to get him that car. And how naive that I just couldn't see it back then. As Disculta said: cor blimey - or worse. love to all, Livia

Subject: Thanks John, CQ and Thorin [nt] From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:36:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Importent information From: Ulf To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 09:54:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank C.Q. and Steve , is it Steve Muller ? Notice how clear Bob is , back then . He knew what we know now. And remember how we all felt so sorry for his poor lost soul . Remember. ? 20- 30 years later , we see what a mindfuck it all was . Still people are being trapped , and because of that E.P.O. is still very importent. Ulf .

Subject: I wish I had known Mischler From: PatC To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:10:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I first listened to the interview and was surprised at how sweet and calm Bob was. I was also astonished to hear how articulate and smart he was. Hearing a person's voice gives you a good idea as to what the person is like so I urge everyone to listen to the audio version too. I found these two paragraphs very telling: ''I had set up a program to use the tax-free income that he was getting in gifts from the premies to create a program of investments for him so that ultimately he could live off his invested capital and not need to have the premies keep making incredible contributions to him - not need to have Divine Light Mission give so much of its money to him to maintain his lifestyle. In other words he would be financially independent, therefore he would no longer have the necessity of having them believe that he was God so that he could count on all of their donations.'' ''He would find ways to charge off things that we'd bought - for him - to various Divine Light Mission departments so that they could be hidden within our financial status.'' These are all ill-gotten gains and I would like to see Rawat return them. He defrauded us out of our money with false pretenses. He needs to return this money and spend the rest of his life working to pay off what he has frittered away on his insatiable appetite for expensive toys. He could earn a good living as a pilot and have his pay garnished. What a low-life piece of trash he is.

Subject: Steve has never posted here From: JHB To: Ulf Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:51:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Steve who sent me the tape has never posted here, and to my knowledge is not known by anyone here. John.

Subject: Once again, information is so powerful From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If this transcript was widely disseminated in the late 70's or early 80's, how many of us would have left then? Or if we didn't leave, would have at least taken one or two big steps back to re-think the whole thing?....which would have led to further steps backward, and final exiting.... Even if a premie says 'how can you be sure it's true? What if Mischler, Donner, Dettmers et al, are all lying and making this stuff up? You have to admit, it would certainly start people reconsidering their involvement with it, and their reluctance to question any of it... Thanks again! Very helpful stuff, especially to see it in print.

Subject: Re: Once again, information is so powerful From: PatD To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:59:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure I would've believed him then,even if I'd heard the interview.He was a lone voice,a man who'd done the unthinkable because he was in his head. Walked out on the Incarnation. A remote figure who just got in the way between me & walking hand in hand with the Lord. Fuck him. It's the accumulated memories of hundreds who enabled the penny to drop for me. If only there'd been the internet in 1979. Where are the people who've kept Rawat afloat since those days? Why aren't they speaking out? Don't mind my rhetorical questions,they aren't speaking out because they've lost the plot. R.I.P Robert Mischler,you had the moral integrity to look a lie in the face & turn your back on it.You knew that truth demands a man practices what he preaches. Thanks to all who put this in the public domain.

Subject: Re: Once again, information is so powerful From: Crispy To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 18:27:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many would have left back then if these tapes had been disseminated, you ask? I know I would have...... I remember when our coordinator briefly announced to us with that silent look of disdain on his face that Mishler had resigned. The attitude back then (and still present today), was how could someone dare turn their back on Mj like that? The only comment the coordinator added was that Mj had made it clear there should be no confusion as to who's the boss in his organization, i.e how dare someone think they know better than the perfect one. The off-the-top judgement of Mishler was that he had let his mind-ego think he knew better than Mj how to run things. Noone dared wonder what was Mishler's view. So it was quickly hushed and forgotten. (typically cultish?) Even though all this vital information now on EPO has been hidden from us all this time, I'm still so thankful the pieces of the puzzle have been finally snapped together for me. So, many thanks to all involved (past and present!) on this transcript.

Subject: Holy shit!!! From: Inside Edition To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:04:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JHB, Thank you very much for posting this interview. If I had access to THAT back in 1978, I most definately would NOT have spent another minute in the ashram, let alone another twenty years in the CULT!! Holy shit indeed!! Inside Edition

Subject: Cor Blimey From: Disculta To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 09:19:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is amazing! Holy sheeet indeed! Stand out points for me: the image of poor Marolyn feeling so confused as she realizes whom she's married; her suffering from hour-long verbal abuse tirades from her Lord; being susceptible to the I'm-a-worthless-shit-syndrome because of her catholic upbringing. (I didn't have a catholic upbrining but I was susceptible too - how about you?) The clarity with which Mishler nailed MJ: greedy, bored, drunk, and abuser of power. Mishler's compassion about the financial exploitation and general disempowerment of ashram premies. The fact that even Marolyn was into the dethroning plan in 1976. Boy did she ever get pulled back in! (And me too). The CENTRAL point, which I believe Mishler made on the radio as well, because I remember hearing it before, is his first-hand witnessing of the fact that the reason MJ reinstituted his Lordship in 76/77 was because he was afraid of losing his opulent lifestyle. This was very powerful for me when I first heard it, even though I think I was already 'out.' But I really felt betrayed. It was them last few years of fascist devotion that really nearly done me in. love ktd

Subject: Marolyn... From: Cynthia To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:11:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, The image of hour long verbal abuse toward Marolyn struck me too. It must have been so horrible. Verbal abuse is emotional battering. Yet on the stage, in the videos and films, everything was just fine. It's quite typical except for the cult/lord part. I wonder if he did that to her in front of the kids. If so, that's even worse. It's clearly the battered spouse syndrome, Catholic or not. That m did it to her in front of others is even more humiliating. I wonder why she hasn't left. It can't be just the money. Maybe she's waiting for the best time for her. That transcription was incredible and I think that Bob Mischler was quite brave for his efforts to publicly tell the truth about Maharaji. Best, Cynthia

Subject: Dear brave lurking PAMs From: Disculta To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I think that Bob Mischler was quite brave for his efforts to publicly tell the truth about Maharaji. ' Yes, although don't we wish he had done more, now? I quite understand why he didn't at the time. I (and others) have written in detail on these forums everything I can remember from my few contacts with MJ, and my quite extensive contact with PAMs (people around MJ). Even some quite small details have been helpful to some people. But it's pretty small-scale stuff. It's the direct reporting from the frontline that is the most powerful to fence-sitters. SO... if you are someone who was around MJ and knows more of the x-rated story - even just in terms of your own emotional experience - please know that it would be very very helpful for you to write it here. I know that you're over the whole thing and have gotten on with your life and all that. But if you knew how helpful your efforts and emotional stretching would be in this area, you would probably give it a shot. Again - it seems that the accounts written by people around MJ have been the most powerful factor for many premies in being able to free themselves after as much as 30 years! love Katie Darling

Subject: Former PAMs, please speak up From: PatC To: Disculta Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:16:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, Disculta. I can think of many premies who would benefit from hearing more about the fake wizard behind the divine curtain. No one owes this to the premies but I can think of no better kindness than for the former PAMs to speak up and free the remaining deluded devotees. If you have seen through the greedy wizard of Amaroo, Oz, please speak up and help others be free.

Subject: nutshell version From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I started living with Maharaji then, once he had split with his family, and I saw what he was really like. Maharaji at the time was real young, he was only 16, 17 in those days, but he already had developed some really bad habits that are essentially the result of a lifestyle of being plain bored essentially. By bad habits I'm talking about - not my own opinion - I'm talking about in terms of his own physical well-being. He used to drink excessively and he had not learned to manage the stress of his situation so consequently he suffered from essential hyper-tension which is a psychological high blood pressure condition, which was very dangerous for his health and well-being - he used to have fainting spells sometimes because his blood pressure would be so high and he would just black out. Things like this to me were indicative of some deeper problems. He would rise in the morning and by early afternoon on a typical day he was already drinking. And he drank heavily, not just beer or wine - he drank cognac, and he drank it to the point that he was stewed every evening. There was more than one occasion where we had to pick him up and carry him to bed after he had passed out. I don't see how there can be a happy ending for anybody involved, including him - ultimately. Because he's not even happy now, that's the irony of the whole thing, I mean ... consumerism is like a disease with him. He no sooner has the object of his desire, whether it's a new Maserati or Rolls Royce or whatever - Aston Martin - he's thinking about the next thing: it's got to be a helicopter, it's got to be a Grummond Gulfstream 2, it's got to be this or that. I mean ... he just craves all of these symbols of wealth that, once he has them, he can't even use them. I mean, what can you do? Even when I was there - and I'm sure it's gotten worse since then - there was not enough garage space to keep all of his cars - and we had like six garages, OK? if you're living a life now that's not only injurious to others but that's also self-destructive, and you can't - you don't have the courage to make a change, well then ... there's not much anybody else can do for you. Over and over and over again it's defining a reason to believe in spite of everything else. And we used to go through this with Marolyn all the time. Because ... she, in the early years, was very much ... I mean, it was a shock to her to find out what Maharaji was really like after she married him - it was tremendous adjustment. I've seen how Maharaji manipulates her ... I mean, ... he's, ... he's a powerful person, he can influence people, particularly at that ... I mean, if you're indebted to the extent that Marolyn is ... I would watch her get completely overcome with guilt at ever doubting him. But he would really berate her, I mean he would just verbally assault her for, like, an hour - and she would be reduced to tears. And it would be terrible, because she really wasn't guilty - of anything. But he would play upon that ... that kind of propensity she had to be vulnerable at that level. And she really had it, she's ... a Roman Catholic background, and it's something that's really for her to get into.

Subject: and to think we all thought he was manmat [nt] From: Livia To: bill Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:34:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: and to think we all thought he was manmat From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:34:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, That's true. Even as recent as 1997 when I asked premies what ever happened to Bob Mishler they told me he ''flipped out.'' I read your message on LG. I won't post there anymore, nor will I read anything from the queen. It just causes me hurt and pain and encourages me to be negative when I don't want to be. Thanks for your supportive and kind words... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 12:19:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, yes it was odd to hear Mishler's voice - he sounds very gentle and compassionate - and to read his words too. I had such an attitude about that man for so many years, that he was dangerous and totally deluded. How wrong can one be... Re LG - you're welcome. I just couldn't stand to see them pile into you like that, it was so ugly. I'm going to try not respond to people over there either - you just get a barrage of abuse whatever you say. I'm just going to continue with this debate with Harry and that's it. Their latest site 'Peaches' is where they seem to be headed, and they're all welcome to each other as far as I'm concerned. They chose it. Lots of love to you Cynthia XX

Subject: What beans are left to spill? From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:17:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a question.... With all of the recent revelations of the last 2 years or so concerning the 'secret life of m', or the offstage life of the man on stage..... What other revelations are out there about m's personal behaviour that are yet to be told? What other incidents have happened that would cast doubt on the 'perfect master'? What information about organizational strategies might come out that would reveal more? What people might come forward to tell what? Just wondering what anyone might think about any of this...

Subject: Claudias stories for one. From: bill To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:56:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The bob mishler book that he was working on when he died, the rest of the stories that Mike Dettmers knows, the stories Marolyns sister knows, what is her name anyone....maybe we can contact her. Hansi's stories, the gay sex between him and his valet, the tales of his premie women sex victims, stories from waiters at restaurants when he went ballistic, stories from the salesman at the rodeo drive watch store, the jewler that made the crown, stories from fuzbee when he finally wakes up enough, stories from his eldest brother, the press release that mata ji released in 74 denouncing him, ect ect,

Subject: Re: What beans are left to spill? From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 05:57:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think (and know) that there are plenty of people who know a lot, but are unwilling to spill the beans because of residual fear of possible repercussions. Or because they don't feel any responsibility to spill any beans and have chosen to get on with their lives away from it all. Personally I believe that if they know things that would help other people to walk away, they do have a responsibility to tell what they know. This is because it's easier for them to walk away free of misgivings than it is for people who were never privy to that sort of information, and are therefore still trapped within an inaccurate projection. However, they may be seriously afraid to speak out, firstly because of fears of litigation, and/or fears of having to lose close friendships of up to 30 years. My view, for what it's worth. Livia

Subject: I agree Livia.... From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 14:59:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...in general.I'd like to add that many of the ways in which premies raised money were criminal. Expecting much to come to light in that area is futile. The further back you go in the history,the murkier the stories. Those who used a long spoon have cut it up & buried it long ago.

Subject: The million dollar question From: hamzen To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 23:25:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cause we don't know, we don't know what we don't know. Sorry couldn't resist a bit of systems thinking there:) Say even if there is nothing else major about him to come out, and that's doubtful, there are still loads of questions I'd like asked, most of them of a dubious and humourous nature, and especially related to stuff that could puncture or wind up the windbag known as 'the lord of the universe not a leaf moves without me knowing'. I really do want to hear more explicit details on his bed technique, which we already know is close to diabolical at an embarrassing level. Questions such as exactly how many premie women has he shagged, or should I say, given personal darshan to? 10, 50, 100, thousands? We know it's at least half-a-dozen, from various sources, not least dettmners who he used as his pimp to pull the fit ones. Other questions that come to mind are, what is it about his bed technique that is so embarrassingly inept, more than a few hints from a couple of sources there, but no explicit details from the horses mouth as it were? Wheres Monica Lewis when you need her? Is it true his dick size is tiny, and exactly how many years is it since he could see it because of his gut size? Is he into mirrors and bondage, does he go down on them, has he ever used his position to pull premie blokes, so many unanswered questions. Now sorry for anyone of a sensitive nature who finds such talk disgusting, but personally I find the topic disgraceful too, almost as disgraceful as the fakirinand attempted murder cover up and the jagdeo cover up and the EV abuse of Abi after it was all exposed, and the health & safety issues around the deca project, forgetting all the psycho dasmage and suicides of premies who thought they were not worthy of gmj, which is why their experience of k was so poor.. He completely abused his power over his followers for sexual purposes, no diff than sai baba and other dodgy gurus and abuses by people with undue power. Were they all over age? And not just his abuse of power sexually, which I see as akin to rape considering how he was perceived then, and perceived even now. Another thought, is he still at that game of sexual abuse, how does he explain it to the kids when they bring it up, as they are bound to do sometime when they are angry with him, has he taught hans that it's ok to abuse women, like father like son 'good on yer, go for it my boy' etc etc So many questions still to be answered even if it is just fillin in the details

Subject: Let Prem answer you, Hammie From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:34:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.geocities.com/gerry_lyng/the_truth_about_maharaji.jpg

Subject: ????????????????? From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Missing link pic on my mac man. Or is that the joke that he never answers anything?

Subject: No, he answers! From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 11:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Minutia www.geocities.com/gerry_lyng/the_truth_about_maharaji.jpg

Subject: You're so damned irreverent, ham From: PatC To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:38:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I'm far more interested in where all the money went than in his sexual shennanigans. Sure I'd like the blondes to step forward with a few kiss and tell stories but I'd prefer a few of his accountants to explain his complex book-keeping.

Subject: Yes, the money... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:29:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am also quite interested in his accumulation of wealth off the backs of his premies. To see him goes down in poverty would be great; it's not likely to happen but anything is possible.

Subject: Re: The million dollar question From: Salam To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 00:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a good question: Is spirituallity a neccessary element to be in a cult or can the Rugby League considered as one [cult]? Yes Mr Hiller, you were saying......... [oh can you please voice your insults, me and my friends are watching ;)]

Subject: Grow up, Salam From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:01:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, You and your 'friends' are a few extremely confused people with nothing at all in common but the fact that each of you has some chip on your shoulder that you can't or won't deal with maturely. Deborah, for one, sounds like she really has gone mad. Here's some of her latest: On LG ''Hi Cat, Shit! When the shit hits the fun it so easy to see how seriously deranged Jim and PatC and Cynthia are. ''Damn, it's hard to imagine that I never saw Jim's potential for full blown deluded insanity. i got clues during the very overt betrayal of the FA's and covert instigation by Jim. ''Now he's blown the lid of the covert and overtly showing his socio-pathological fuckupedness. And look at the pathological liars club he keeps as sidekicks. ''They are getting sicker everyday and oddly assume everyone has their discontinuity in logic. cheers, deborah, who wished you convinced me before I found out the hard way'' On AG ''Did you notice that it's okay for them to be a pathological liars at Forum VII about Selene, Salam, Quiet, and I including but not limited to Jim's sociopathic 'want to have someone murdered' tales but it is unethical to say anything about them. Strange eh?! cheers, deborah, who can't believe people don't realize what they are saying'' Do you agree with her assessment of me? I know you think I'm some sort of evil 'Zionest' or however you spell it but do you also think I'm a sociopath suffering from full-blown deluded insanity? More specifically, do you believe Deborah when she says I'm lying about her threatening to have Pat killed? Come on, Salam, who do you believe, her or me?

Subject: Call Deborah's bluff, Salam From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 16:49:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, Pat, who I know you're going to rush to wish a happy birthday today, has posted more of Deborah's AG and LG comments on Symp. They're so silly, they don't deserve comment. But when she makes certain specific allegations that I know are entirely false, I have to say something. Here's one of her latest: [Deb to ?] PatC already admitted in a post back wehn the fight was in full swing that it was because I called Forum VII a cult. The reason they didn't want the article done was because they thought the premies would laugh and that it was not a good look for the EPO. Another significant reason was because the inner circle wanted to avoid media altogether because of the potential of libel. In fact, I have all the posts and emails to back it. And ironicaly enough, Nouri and Maharaji benefitted from the dry run and furthermore now have the proof of the FA's betrayal, lies, constant revisions, defamation, cyberstalking, and brutish behaviour. This turned out to be lemonades for Maharaji and is an legal ace in his pocket. cheers, deborah, who now wonders if M really does have a divine horseshoe up his ass I'm not sure who she's including in her notion of an 'inner circle' but I do know that she's lying again. That is, she's completely making it up when she says that there were a bunch of exes emailing each other saying they wanted to avoid media altogether because of the 'potential of libel' [sic]. She says she has emails to back her up. She's lying, Salam. Or, put it this way, if there were any such emails, they sure didn't come my way and I was one of the people she's referring to as 'inner circle' whatever that means. She's lying, Salam, just like she's lying when she denies threatening to have Pat killed. So put her to the test. Ask for the emails and posts she's talking about. See what she says. That is, if you care about the truth in the matter.

Subject: Don't bother, Jim... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 07:13:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam doesn't know how to converse.

Subject: Re: Call Deborah's bluff, Salam From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 06:24:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was told that you were being civil, so am a looking. I don't know why you line me up with Deb. You did that the other day and lined me up with M. I don't appreciate that. What Deb think and does it's her choice, it has nothing to do with me. She also think that she has a case aginst you which is obvious. Why she doesn't talk to you that is something she has not disclosed [maybe she thinks you're a boofhead?]. Scociopath, umm very likely. You are certainly not acting like a normal person does. You jump from one place to another picking up fights, you don't allow anyone to voice their thoughts and you are a bigger checken that Zelda because you always get someone to do your dirty work for you. So unfortunatly I do agree with her though that doesn't mean that I follow her as I made this opinion when she was still going all gaga about what you say. anyway, I really have no time to read so much on forums anymore. I have limited access to the net, which keeps me on the straight and narrow. So am afraid you will have to find someone else to give you a good old rattle. And that fellow [you know who] if you see him, just as him if he is or isn't the wife, be nice. Someone posted a link on lg which I thought was very relevant, get someone to post it for you. Oh look this is a nice post on ag, sorry maite, I need to read it.

Subject: What?? From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:13:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why you line me up with Deb. Maybe because you say stuff like this: [oh can you please voice your insults, me and my friends are watching ] What friends?

Subject: In fact he's much scarier than Osama! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reconsidering Maharaji's 'Peace Bomb' satsang in this new era of Islamic funtamentalism is downright freaky. It's all there -- the disdain for the world, the sheer impatience and personal indignation that anyone would NOT sacrifice their life to him. But, really, he's much worse than Osama. Maharaji claims that he is the greatest incarnation of God ever and promises as emphatically and specifically as possible that HE, not Allah, but HE HIMSELF will rule the world. Absolutely amazing. This is most, but not all, of the rant. The whole thing's on EPO. I've highlighted some favorite parts: In this age which is coming, everybody will have his desserts. Justice will be done, and the proud will be made humble. So, dear premies, forsake that grandeur that is making you so lazy, and go and tell people about God. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord says that whenever religion becomes corrupted and evil increases, He takes a human body and manifests in this world to destroy evil and to protect His devotees. All of you must know very well what is happening to religion and Knowledge in the materialistic age. All the time, the latest models are being built, the latest fashions are being designed. Day by day men are striving to improve the quality and appearance of their inventions. And today I have to say with sorrow that the Knowledge which was once firmly established in this land of India has been slowly disappearing. But when the Lord saw that the troubles His devotees were having to endure had reached the final point, He said, 'My devotees can bear it no longer', and then manifested Himself in a human body. So, dear premies, we Indians have a duty and that duty is to forget that self-esteem which makes you lazy and to destroy those things that separate you from God. Only accept that which is of God, which is one with the Name of God, and from which every ray of the Light of God comes. Accept that and show the Western world that in this degrading age, we are the same Indians as before. So, dear premies, receive this Knowledge, and those who have received this Knowledge must meditate and have Guru Maharaj Ji's darshan. Why do you search in the world? Peace is not there, peace is with me. Those who are lost can come and those who are fond of roaming can roam about in arrogance. What will the world give to me? It can receive from me, but what can it give to me? 'When the devotee has the blessings of the Perfect Master, what does he lack? All the gods and goddesses envy him and liberation never leaves him.' Guru Maharaj Ji has infinite mercy on me. Take from me, but what will you give me? Will you give me love? The love that you will give me, that love is also mine, so what is yours? Did you just happen to fall from the sky without the help of Guru Maharaj Ji and without the Lord? No, the Lord has created you and Guru Maharaj Ji has put love into you. Oh, give what is mine back to me, and I will give you such a thing, such a peace, that not even a pistol or a gun will be found in the country. Not one leader will stand and shout slogans, not a man of the army will remain and, dear premies, there will be peace. I will give you this peace because it is in my possession and I can give it. I do not need machine guns, I do not need pistols, I do not need a sword, I do not need a spear. I possess such a Knowledge that with it I can control the whole world, from ants to elephants, from men to animals, from birds to mosquitoes, by tying them in the thread of love. Oh! We shoot someone and he dies but is that peace? No, that can never be called peace. It is said that when a man kills a snake, the real satisfaction comes when the snake is killed and the stick remains intact. And I say that peace will come without any guns being fired. Is this impossible? No, it is possible, and I am going to show how it is possible. If you stay alive to see it, watch how I will make it possible! Not a single pistol will be made in this world. Lions and sheep, pigeons and cats will drink water in the same lake, and there will be no hostility. What if I am twelve years old? What does it matter? Old people drive cars and I also can drive a car. What does it matter if I am twelve? If at twelve I can drive a car which one is able to do only at the age of eighteen, why can I not give Knowledge of the Soul at the age of twelve? Is this impossible? This is possible. In London, just for fun, the press reporters from a newspaper printed a photo of mine where I am blessing with both my hands and sitting in meditation. Someone had given them that photo. They titled it, 'Let Me Rule This World.' Their feelings in publishing this were not sincere, but people took that cutting and framed it. The premies in London really appreciated this photo and they displayed it in their houses. Oh, you think I am small and in this small age I will not be able to do anything. But this age is the age of the body and not of the soul. The body is twelve years old, not the soul. And I have a soul. That is how I am speaking - because I have a soul. If my soul departs, I would be dead. What difference does it make whether my body is ten years old or 200 years old? My soul has no age! Whether I am very old or very young, listen to me. Guru Maharaj Ji is such an ocean of Grace, what shall I say of Him? How is it possible to understand Him? If you do not obey what Maharaj Ji says, what is the use of your living in this world? Rather you should die of shame! Why don't you realize? Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke? The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words, accept me. I will give you Knowledge. If you mistake my meaning, if you mistake a single word of what I am saying, I will not forgive you. Those who are shameful or bothered about social respect ask for forgiveness. I do not bother about social respect. I do not feel shy of anyone because I have entrusted the reins of my life to Guru Maharaj Ji. Therefore, dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again. It will come, and once again the world will understand. So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji! Oh, blind humanity, you are like those blind men who tried to visualize the elephant by feeling it. You have become like a horse blinded by blinkers. You have been blinded so much that you are lost in illusion. The world has blinded you in such a way that the blinkers of illusion are now around your eyes. You have been blinded and are now lost in the circle of illusion. Love flows from the Lord who has given me wisdom; will He not also give me strength to establish peace on this earth? How will He not give? I have complete faith in Guru Maharaj Ji. And the tears that I am shedding on His anniversary are not because I remember Him, or because I feel sad. They are because of the power I carry with me. Right now, I feel such a power in me, I do not know where it has come from; I feel as if I want to shake the world. Soon I will leave my studies and spread the Holy Word of Guru Maharaj Ji throughout the world. How will the world not receive it? To every single child, I will reveal this Name. I will give you such a thing, such a Name, that you have never received before in your life. But come to me. Why do you hesitate? Mira did not hesitate. When she was given poison to drink and was told it was nectar, she drank without suspicion, so trusting was she in the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. If Mira had hesitated, definitely she would have been killed; but she was not at all troubled by pride or how her social position would be affected. She had sacrificed her whole life at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji, and this is why she did not die. The poison that was given to her became nectar as she drank it. Therefore, dear premies, the time has come for restlessness to be destroyed and the Kingdom of Peace to be established. Whether you take it as my prophecy or anything else, the Kingdom of Peace will be established soon. Those people who roam about like insects of the monsoon, misguiding the people, will be set aside. Today people everywhere listen to film songs and do not find time for Truth. Here I say that such films will be destroyed. Those film actors, those directors, those musicians whose music is causing harm to religions and satsang programmes, will cease their work. They are supposed to remind us of God, of Truth, of Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Lord Nanak, but instead they only show stories of boys and girls. Is this the culture of India? Is this all that remains of the citizens of India? No, I understand that my fellow Indians still have the same blood that they had before and have complete faith that they will know this Name, realize this Knowledge and make others realize it too. Look, doesn't Guru Maharaj Ji give you darshan from time to time? It is for you to sacrifice every drop of blood for Him. Once, Guru Maharaj Ji pretended to His disciple Shiva Ji that His eyes were sore. He said, 'What should I do? Once when I was young, my eyes were sore, and someone gave me the milk of a lioness. I put that on my eyes and they were alright.' Shiva Ji left that place, doing his pranam to Guru Maharaj Ji and saying in his heart, 'O Guru Maharaj Ji, you are all powerful. What can you not do? You can do anything. I surrender myself at your Lotus Feet. Protect me, please,' as you should pray in your heart when you do pranam before Guru Maharaj Ji or His picture. Saying these words, Shiva Ji left. Now the life of Shiva Ji was in the hands of Guru Maharaj Ji and He protected Shiva Ji. When he reached the forest, it was on fire, and the cubs of a lioness were in great danger. Shiva Ji picked them up and carried them to safety. The lioness came and when she saw Shiva Ji, she was very angry. But see how the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji works through those who have faith in Him. Both the cubs ran to their mother and told her he had saved their lives. 'Oh mother,' they said, 'he has saved our lives, please give him what he wants.' The lioness asked, 'What do you want?' Shiva Ji replied, 'My Guru Maharaj Ji is not feeling well. His eyes are burning. Give me a little of your milk.' And the lioness allowed him to milk her in a bowl. Where was Shiva Ji from? He was not from London or America but from India. That Shiva Ji will always exist and he exists now, but dear premies, why should he manifest himself? He wants huge masses to rise first. I do not want to be a Shiva Ji just to appear before Guru Maharaj Ji. Shiva Ji never wanted that. He only wants one thing and that is the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji who is the ocean of love. When he became one with Guru Maharaj Ji, He gave him such a love that he wanted everybody to benefit from it, and for nobody to be hurt. He only wants this. If I ask you to cut your head for Guru Maharaj Ji, you should do it and offer it to Him on a plate. You should sacrifice every drop of blood for Guru Maharaj Ji. But see what kind of people live in this world. They accuse the mahatmas of being too fervent, too strong in their language. 'He shouts and screams on the stage,' they say. But no! Once a mahatma saw a scorpion floating in some water. The poor thing was feeling cold and struggling. He put his hand into the water and took him out. As soon as he was out, he stung the mahatma and escaped from his hands, falling back into the water. Mahatma Ji picked him up again but he still stung him and escaped again. A farmer was passing by and he saw Mahatma Ji do this five or six times, then asked him, 'Are you crazy, Mahatma Ji? He is not going to leave his habit of stinging. Why are you unnecessarily troubling yourself? Let it go. Let it die.' Then the mahatma explained, 'It is his duty to bite me, but it is my duty to save him.' So a mahatma must do his duty no matter what people say. If it was possible for the Lord to feel tired, if Guru Maharaj Ji could ever feel tired, He would surely have lost hope by now. Shishupal rebuked the Lord a hundred and one times. You people are fed up after only two rebukes, but he rebuked the Lord a hundred and one times! So if the Lord was to feel tired, He would have lost hope by now. He wouldn't bother to keep coming. But He comes for the people of the world and they do not recognize Him. You must understand and have faith in my words. All I ask is your love, all I ask is your trust, and what I can give you is such a peace as will never die. I will give you such a peace that even the President of America will bow down to you. So, dear premies, tell the people that we are devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji. Ask them what there is in these things they are following. All have to forsake shameful things when they die, so why stay shyly at home, hesitating to propagate? It is alright for a girl with good character to stay at home feeling shy about going out and roaming with boys. But, dear premies, I would like to ask you, will the world not hear if you scream? They will listen with their ears wide open. Will that girl who is now so socially respectable still be full of consideration when four people are carrying her dead body on a bier? No, at that time she will have to give up her social respect. So, dear premies, forget about social respectability, and put yourself in meditation, the remembrance of God. So, dear premies, one day you will have to sacrifice your social respect, so leave it now. What is there in that? One day all have to die, but what can happen if you die while meditating on God? Do not misunderstand my words. What else is there? I declare that I will establish peace in this world. Just give me the reins and let me rule and I will rule in such a way that even Rama, Hariscandra, Krishna and other kings could not have ruled like that! That day is fast approaching. So arise, awake, open the ears of each man and tell him the time has come! Do not tell him that there was a festival. No! Make them understand He has come to reveal the Knowledge, that He has come to show us the True Path, and if you truly give me the reins of your life, I swear by Guru Maharaj Ji, I take an oath on Guru Maharaj Ji, and I swear by my mother who has give me birth, that I will give you peace. If with a true heart you give me the reins of your life, place them in my hands, you will be saved. So brothers, now the time has come when I have to sacrifice my social respectability. You also sacrifice it and show the people who I am, whose children we are. Tell the people who is your True Mother, whose devoted children you are. I have the hope that you are the pearls of the True Mother, and if you are, then sacrifice your life in this enterprise. He who drives his motorcycle into the tunnel of death has no hope in life. He only has to close his eyes and drive and if he falls he dies, but if he escapes he gains fame. So devote yourself wholeheartedly, sacrifice your life to propagate this Name. You can serve the world afterwards, you can fill this stomach eating and drinking later, but if you sacrifice yourself now for the devotion of God, I say that people will spread out golden carpets for you. Oh! Sacrifice yourself! Why didn't you hear the bhajan just now that said if you miss the chance, you will not get a human life again! So obey my command, or else you will be drowned. What can I say about Guru Maharaj Ji who has sent me amongst you and has given me this chance to serve you? The name of such a merciful Guru Maharaj Ji is Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. How shall I sing of Him? How shall I express the love He has for you? He has deep love for humanity. I cannot express the great love He has for you. I do not have sufficient words to express how much Guru Maharaj Ji loves you. Had I liked sleeping on a luxurious bed, I would have been doing so by now and enjoying it, but I do not want pleasure or rest. Ain't that something? :)

Subject: obey my command, or else you will be drowned From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, maybe he's not as dangerous as Osama but he's sure as crazy. I guess I was too. That used to be my Bible. Funny thing is, despite the revisionism, his message is still the same freaky fundamentalist crap: ''Belief is relief,'' ''Never doubt the purity of the Master,'' ''You cannot save yourself - only the Master can save you.'' And the latest from Amaroo: ''Trying to save yourself is like a kid reading a book upside down. You need the Master to teach you to read.'' Sounds quite innocuous and as modern as the new CEO of the Prem Rawat Foundation but it's still plays on that same old-timey creepy superstitious paranoia. Yes, Rawat is peddling as primitive a religion as Osama. I wonder if the Peace Bomb was burned during the Great Purge?

Subject: Don't miss the picture From: Jean-Michel To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:01:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just exhumed from my closet (very bottom of the Peace Bomb satsang) ..... GMJ Is Here And Now

Subject: THIS should be front and centre, IMHO [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: When are exes like premies? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:11:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When they're being evasive. Premies, by virtue of their circumstances, have no choice but to avoid any and all hard questions about their beliefs and their guru. But, as we've seen recently, sometimes ex-premies also feel compelled to be evasive. When's that? Well, in the case of Deborah, Selene and Salam, and now even Dave, it's when they've somehow stuck their foot in their mouths. In a normal discussion, if they wanted to stick around at all, they'd be expected to do what everyone else is always expected to do: be accountable for what they say. That includes standing up for things you believe in, of course, but it also includes admitting when you're wrong. Obviously. This is not exactly a normal discussion environment though. This is an interface between people who are -- generally -- willing to discuss things fairly, the exes, because we have nothing to lose by doing so and because we're truly interested, dependent upon and faithful in the processes of analysis and discussion, and premies who just can't afford to play that way. Hence the radical difference between this forum and LG. This place is a healthy conversation pit and that's what it looks like. People agree, disagree, get serious, get funny, on topic, off topic. They say new things, repeat old ones, are sometimes profound, sometimes silly. It's all of it healthy, honest and mature and each of us knows that, at any moment, we might be asked to explain, even defend, something we posted moments before. Big deal. If our words meant any less than that, they wouldn't be worth sharing. LG, on the other hand, is weird as all get out. People might start a fledgling conversation there but, if it's on topic at all, ie if it's about Maharaji, the discussion never thrives. Indeed, it's impossible, so varied and confused are the many perspectives premies have about Maharaji and so-called Knowledge. They can talk around issues and they can spit at us but they can't really talk openly and honestly there about the stuff that matters. The truth is so overwhelmingly problematic for them, they just can't do it. Mind you, some, but very few, premies are ever honest enough to admit their problem in that regard. Instead, most pathetically, they try to blame those of us who seek to engage them in these discussions. That's why CD blocked me from LG today, because I was just trying to ask premies about that Peace Bomb crazy talk of Maharaji's, satsang so amazingly dark and dangerous it seemed to truly surprise the one premie who dared comment before I was kicked out. Conflict, personal or otherwise, is bound to occur between people over time. Not only is that generally true but it's all the more so here where 1) communication's so verbal; 2) subject matter can be so emotional; and 3) there are still wide-spread differences between us on the foundation issues of spirituality that led to premiedom in the first place. It goes without saying that it isn't just a premie weakness to avoid accountabilty as the premies do when discussing Maharaji. What's so bizarre, however, is seeing exes who are trying to avoid accountability for their reasons cozy up with the premies who are being evasive for theirs. The environment that premies create with these evasive exes is stupefying. There's no honour there, no integrity, no accountability at all. It's truly like a den of thieves. No one expects anything of the others except their shared resentment at being 'pressured' to be honest. This, I feel, was the weakness that led to the creation of Recent Exes which, if you didn't know already, was a forum created to give some breathing space (a hiding place?) to exes who wanted to talk about their spiritual beliefs without challenge. I've yet to see a persuasive argument as to why its existence is a good thing. Sure, anyone can make any forum they want and limit membership however they see fit. But is it a good thing? That's a different story. Anyways, not just politics but human nature (ie weakness) makes for some strange bedfellows. Interesting indeed.

Subject: In defence of evasion From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 03:37:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I've come to the view that some people just can't help it, and they don't even see that they are being evasive. When pressed, they see the person pressing as rude. I've recently had a short email exchange with my sister about some unrelated matter, and when I pressed her to explain something hurtful that she had said, she behaved exactly like Dave is now, and I'm left looking at what she originally said, looking at her revision, and I know all I can do is drop it. If I were to push her on it, I would just be confirming in her eyes that I am rude and pushy. So if we want to keep some people as friends, or at least as people we get on with, then we have to recognise when this phenomenon has happened, and drop it. Well that wasn't much of a defence, but just a recognition that this happens. John

Subject: Re: When are exes like premies? From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:07:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent read again, of course. You said: ''The environment that premies create with these evasive exes is stupefying. There's no honour there, no integrity, no accountability at all. It's truly like a den of thieves. No one expects anything of the others except their shared resentment at being 'pressured' to be honest.'' That's why I avoid LG. It's stinks of deceit and evasion and unfortunately that has been going on on AG for as long as I've been around which is why I steered clear of it. The two worlds (straightforward honesty vs evasive game-playing) recently collided when some major discussions took place on AG and LG. I am hoping that some good will come of it - mostly that the game-players will no longer be humored here and will stay in their own little private club on AG. I don't know anything about RE and never think about it. Like AG, it is a private club and has no relevance to the sensible and responsible public presence of exes on the net. And that's all I'm interested in.

Subject: Recent exes From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:58:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...there are still wide-spread differences between us on the foundation issues of spirituality that lead to premiedom in the first place. It is a relief to let the cumbersome mantle of 'spirituality' slip off one's shoulders. It just sorta happen to me. I like it though. It feels 'clean.' Being a guru snoid seems to stunt emotional intelligence in many cases, although we see this same stuntedness in ex-premies, including alas, myself, although I am evolving. :)

Subject: When they are equally sick of Jim. From: Stonor To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:35:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Block me, baby.

Subject: Here's how Stonor and her friends 'communicate' From: Jim To: Stonor Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a site that Salam started. What a difference, that place and this, huh? Which one's you there, Stonor? Peaches pub29.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2463394014

Subject: Stonor, you're so inconsequential it hurts From: Jim To: Stonor Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:15:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stonor, in case anyone doesn't know, is a middle-aged, new age teacher in Montreal who was never a premie or aspirant. She's got no reason to be here. Never did, never will.

Subject: I didn't post all those extra question marks [nt] From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:27:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's a Hotboards glitch... From: Chuck S. To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:19:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Is anything fun happening on LG anyone? From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:16:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could someone let me know if there's anything fun happening on LG? I was quite looking forward to the premies' answers to the peace bomb quotes. Will had just finished asking Harry an excellent question too. And of course anything by Deborah's always bizarre and wonderful. Just if you get the time, of course. Thanks

Subject: Gerry, would you please reciprocate? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:50:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ger, Would you please consider reciprocating for CD blocking me like this? Really, if you look at LG you can see I was doing nothing at all but politely discussing Maharaji there. Yes, I can see how frustrating it must be for CD and other premies to have to face the facts, in this case evidence that Maharaji seriously expected to rule the world when he was a young satguru and, perhaps even funnier in terms of these premie / ex-premie arguments, that he specifically anticpated the argument that his words should be discounted because of his youth only to shoot that argument down for the very reasons we all do: being a so-called 'perfect master' was all about transcending mere mortal limitations like youth. Rather than answer me, CD banned me. Fine, but I don't see why he and those who've rallied for my blocking there should be allowed here. Fair's fair. What do you say? Thanks

Subject: Sometimes you're such a dork jim From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:02:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and that can be quite amusing too. Love yer to bits an all, but Life's Great forum policy is purely about the good things in life, the things that make you feel good and appreciate it more. Now I know that asking questions like that gives you pleasure but it ain't the case for a lot of people there, and you know it ain't for cd. I only ever go there now for good vibey stuff, and cause that's a very limited lifestyle choice the way they interpret it, go very rarely. Live and let live man, I think you're being a bit disingenuous on this one, or is it ingenuous, you know what I mean anyway. On the other hand you could just be pissed (drunk) and having a laugh in which case :). Re the exes and discussion, why bother, even if people need to go in denial as exes, on this forum, where all the major visitor numbers of premies come, it gets challenged. I see it as amusing that you now have your own anti-cult, but a complete side show. Back on track eh big boy, I'm sure it would be appreciated by everyone, otherwise what will happen will be so predictable. People will start moanin, gerry will feel under pressure, some threads more serious than this one but still a bit tangential to the guru than normal will get locked in a short term management crackdown. It ain't like we haven't been down this route before, and it ain't like most of the major battles here haven't been won, and with minimal compromises. Taking on the cyber personality you do, you know this is gonna happen, so chill man. Just occasionally at times like these every few months you let yourself get distracted when we all rely on you to be the one person come rain or come shine who will be there to the end pretty much morning noon or night shining a light into the gurus porch asking the relevant questions, even when it's raining and the rest of us are down the pub or having a holiday. Well you and Jean Michel beavering away quietly in the background.

Subject: Going to see Mark Farina tonight From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:18:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has Lee arrived yet? How's the weather? Ain't Life Great? :)

Subject: Who's Mark Farina? From: hamzen To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No sign of Lee yet. bit worried for him, the situation here re web design and formal jobs is even tougher than I'd thought, been checking round for him. Still I'm sure he's a survivor, that's what I love about this generation, so much more streetwise than us wannabee cherry garcia's were. You know what would be really funny, get yourself another ISP, then we could go to Lifes Great and call their bluff. Can you imagine if we had discussions there that were truly just about how great life can be, it could be hilarious, since I know you appreciate it just as much as me, how else can 25 year olds put up with us! They would not know how to handle that one at all, especially if you could hold it together without budging and without being sarcastic, yeah I know it would be hard :) :) :) Dontcha just know some of them there would lose the plot and break their own rules!! But on a more serious note, one of the total bonuses of being an ex is how much more great it can be being an ex, even for someone like me who had a wonderful time as a premie. Give it some thought man, pranksters shit etc etc And it's just gone into the 70's here, wunderbar!!!! :) :) :)

Subject: Re: Who's Mark Farina? From: Jim To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 18:19:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Farina's a house dj who's done some really good, well-selling ambient house CD's as the 'mushroom jazz' series. Last night was just a jumble of fairly busy house which was okay. Hell, it's all good, right? Lots of fun afterwards too. Lee has NO steetsmarts. He's dutch. As for going onto LG, well, I hear you Ham but, to tell you the truth, it all seems a bit forced, this Life's Great thing. Perfect reflection of CD's, ahem, 'personality' though. Anyway, you're right about the young un's. How ironic that our generation's youth seems so quaint on reflection. Mind you, you have ot be careful. It was all good then too, in a way. You know .... Mark Farina www.om-records.com/artists/artist_markfarina.html#

Subject: I'm too lazy From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 20:54:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As King around here I would expect some servant class to perform these mundane trivialities while I ponder important issues such as what's for dinner...

Subject: Did I say lazy? Meant laissez-faire From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:49:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Or is that just some fancy French word for lazy? Whatever. Funny how the coven, and even Scott, thinks you and I exert some sort of ''control'' here. There's actually more control being exerted in the Experimental Anarchy Lab. Jim, if I had CD's IP# I would block him but it's not on F7 currently and I have never looked it up before so I don't have a record of it. Sorry for being so laissez-faire and lazy.

Subject: I'm a slacker... From: gerry To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or am I too old for that? I don't have records of IPs either, Pat. I guess we're both slackers.

Subject: Re: I'm a slacker...shit From: PatC To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 00:34:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you had inherited Bazza's voluminous records and sat there in your cabin in the woods updating your records for hours everyday. I guess you must be too busy cleaning your guns and shootin' pesky varmints. Shit, I wish you'd told me. I could have sold my business and taken up FAing full-time now that I have won the lottery and am a multi-millionaire.

Subject: Not really From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:47:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But on Symp Moll of a Mole has published Catweasel's website. On LG your post of Rawat's pre-Fahrenheit 451 rants has not been deleted this time. (Funny how the PWKs hate being reminded of Rawat's old satsangs.) DavidJ concedes that he would not have cut his hand off for Rawat. Catweasel complains that he has been blocked from F7 and will get a new ISP. Talk about addicted to the ex forum! Deb blames you for brainwashing her into saying nasty things to Catweasel last year. On AG they are still slagging us. Nothing else to talk about I guess. CQ has joined in. Scott and Ham have stuck up for us and ZB is complaining that he is blocked from F7. On Peaches - well..... Catweasel's website www.mbcconsultancy.com.au

Subject: I'm slagging you am I? From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 11:35:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well that's news to me. You and Jim an item now, Pat?

Subject: Re: I'm slagging you am I? From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Tues, May 21, 2002 at 11:55:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, didn't you? I thought you posted that Flame Warrior thingy saying I was the Xenophobe? Not that it bothers me. You can slag me any time you want. At least you're funny. BUT that was not an accurate pick for me. Now which one of the Flame Warriors are YOU? :P

Subject: Not guilty, yer honour From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 04:21:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Non, monsieur, that was not me. However I did link Jim to Trogolodyte (not in a malicious way, you understand, it's just that the resemblance between the illustration and Jim's pic was simply overwhelming) ;) And which one is me? I think about equal parts of Eagle Scout and Profundus Maximus (with perhaps just a smidgeon of Lamer). Et tu?

Subject: Oops, sorry! Eagle scout? From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:02:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that Flame Warriors thingy is brilliant. Well, technically I'm blocked from AG so I have to look at it through my washing-machine to disguise my IP. I guess I must have been on rinse cycle and got things mixed up. I must admit that the closest one I found for me was Jekyll and Hyde. :P

Subject: That's odd From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 12:11:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave has apparently said that you're not. (blocked that is). As for the Jekyll and Hyde flame-warrior - boy oh boy, have you got your own number. What's more - it suits you!

Subject: No one can say that I don't know myself :C) [nt] From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, May 23, 2002 at 16:41:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This is Catweasel? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 15:20:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a nice guy! Catweasel www.mbcconsultancy.com.au/who.htm

Subject: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:31:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, I'm disappointed you don't have several ISPs available so that you can log in to any forum, whether you are banned or not. As EPO webmaster I need access even when the entire country I'm living in is under attack, not just when I'm blocked from a forum. As we say in that country I used to live in, get your shit together! John.

Subject: Re: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:54:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish, John, but no such luck. By the way, John, would you please consider getting rid of the link to AG on EPO? What's the point, eh? Thanks

Subject: You can do it, Jim From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 21:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck told me that he emailed you some tricks of the trade or didn't you get it? Yes, I agree about the link to AG. What about a link to Maharaji Watch instead? AG, like every other cult related site, is on that. More tasteful done second-hand.

Subject: Re: Requirements for a cyberwarrior From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:02:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do they still attack Latvia ?

Subject: Osama Bin Maharaji From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 07:48:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Therefore, dear premies, the time has come for restlessness to be destroyed and the Kingdom of Peace to be established. Whether you take it as my prophecy or anything else, the Kingdom of Peace will be established soon. Those people who roam about like insects of the monsoon, misguiding the people, will be set aside. Today people everywhere listen to film songs and do not find time for Truth. Here I say that such films will be destroyed. Those film actors, those directors, those musicians whose music is causing harm to religions and satsang programmes, will cease their work. They are supposed to remind us of God, of Truth, of Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and Lord Nanak, but instead they only show stories of boys and girls. Is this the culture of India? Is this all that remains of the citizens of India? No, I understand that my fellow Indians still have the same blood that they had before and have complete faith that they will know this Name, realize this Knowledge and make others realize it too. Look, doesn't Guru Maharaj Ji give you darshan from time to time? It is for you to sacrifice every drop of blood for Him. Once, Guru Maharaj Ji pretended to His disciple Shiva Ji that His eyes were sore. He said, 'What should I do? Once when I was young, my eyes were sore, and someone gave me the milk of a lioness. I put that on my eyes and they were alright.' Shiva Ji left that place, doing his pranam to Guru Maharaj Ji and saying in his heart, 'O Guru Maharaj Ji, you are all powerful. What can you not do? You can do anything. I surrender myself at your Lotus Feet. Protect me, please,' as you should pray in your heart when you do pranam before Guru Maharaj Ji or His picture. Saying these words, Shiva Ji left. Now the life of Shiva Ji was in the hands of Guru Maharaj Ji and He protected Shiva Ji. ... ... If I ask you to cut your head for Guru Maharaj Ji, you should do it and offer it to Him on a plate. You should sacrifice every drop of blood for Guru Maharaj Ji.

Subject: Why this IS relevant, and fascinating... From: La-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:05:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When you read stuff like this, albeit 30 plus years old, it is still fascinating, because it gives such an insight into the maharaji mindset. When your read bizarre, dark, twisted stuff like this, and stuff like shri hans wrote in hans yog prakash, it gives real insight into what these guys thought of themselves, and what they thought the appropriate relationship was between themselves and other people. Premies wll try and squirm around it, but these old 'satsangs' abound (hard to call them discourses about truth, though), and as much as maharaji tries to hide from his past, these are always here to remind people of how he was indoctrinated and what he really believed about his role. The thing is, he either: 1-Believed this stuff, which is bizarre and very disturbing, or 2-Didn't believe it, but said it anyway, to the premies, which is probably even more bizarre and disturbing. He can't get around it, which is why he just tries to hide from it. Any reasonable discussion of it leads nowhere but to the truth, and maharaji wants to avoid that discussion like the plague. It's just like the age issue. Premies can claim that he said these things when he was just a kid, and therefore should not be held accountable, except that blows the 'perfect master theory', which clearly stated that he was the only fully enlightened soul on the planet, and knew everything to boot. You just can't have it both ways, and now with the ease of showing all of these hypocrisies on the internet, m and the premies simply cannot and will not have any type of reasonable discussion. It is simply too wierd and confronting. BTW, I wonder what 'Leaders' magazine would make of this quote. It might dovetail nicely with the question they asked him about what he was talking about when he was on stage at 8 years old. This rawat is one wierd pup.... What would someone's boss think about this,if their employee was a premie? How about if one of the rawat boys wanted to date a young woman, and her parents wanted to know a litte bit more about the rawat family and family business? Like how did the boy's father makes his money? Can you imagine what they would think when they read some of this stuff from their father? They might think twice before letting their young daughter go out on the town with them. It's a strange and sad story...

Subject: Excellent post, La-Ex From: Jim To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:15:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're so right. Right about everything. But check out the highlighted excerpts from the Peace Bomb above ('worse than Osama'). It's all there including Maharaji's defence of the crazy shit the mahatma's used to say and which he and everyone else under his apron tries to distance themselves from.

Subject: Shouldn't this be front and center on epo.nt From: La-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:18:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: qq

Subject: Is this not, like, the richest irony of all?????? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How often have we heard premies try to explain away the 'Peace Bomb' and other times Maharaji claimed to be God in Human Form or promised to save the world on the basis that that he was only 12 and thus not to be taken seriously? Problem is, Maharaji, in his infinite wisdom, anticipated that very objection and addressed it as follows: What if I am twelve years old? What does it matter? Old people drive cars and I also can drive a car. What does it matter if I am twelve? If at twelve I can drive a car which one is able to do only at the age of eighteen, why can I not give Knowledge of the Soul at the age of twelve? Is this impossible? This is possible. In London, just for fun, the press reporters from a newspaper printed a photo of mine where I am blessing with both my hands and sitting in meditation. Someone had given them that photo. They titled it, 'Let Me Rule This World.' Their feelings in publishing this were not sincere, but people took that cutting and framed it. The premies in London really appreciated this photo and they displayed it in their houses. Oh, you think I am small and in this small age I will not be able to do anything. But this age is the age of the body and not of the soul. The body is twelve years old, not the soul. And I have a soul. That is how I am speaking - because I have a soul. If my soul departs, I would be dead. What difference does it make whether my body is ten years old or 200 years old? My soul has no age! Whether I am very old or very young, listen to me. The really funny thing is that, as you can tell, it used to be the other people, the skeptics, the disbelievers, the critics, who laughed at Maharaji's age and dismissed his claim to be the Lord of the Universe and promise to save the world (not to mention get rid of worldly music and film!). But now it's the premies!!!!!!!! :)

Subject: Thanks very much, Jim From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:28:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, Thank you very much for these two AMAZING posts. I try and read everything of importance here, but have a hard time keeping up with the bullshit. You have uncovered two more very important pieces of the puzzle, and THAT's why I come here. Thanks again, Inside Edition

Subject: Yes, amazing isn't it? From: Jim To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 16:33:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, I just can't wait for the next time I hear a premie try to dismiss Maharaji's big, fat Lord pronouncements on account of his youth. I mean, that was always preposterous to start with but this just makes it even more so. And that bit about ruling the world .... too much, eh?

Subject: But it's all so easily explained... From: Andrea Eriksonn To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 19:48:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...really, I can't believe your making such a big deal out out of a few minor misunderstandings. That part about chopping your head off for guru Maharaji, and offering it on a plate, you make it sound so scary, like it's a bad thing. But it's not scary at all, not really, because actually, it was nothing more than a scary Halloween story. Maharaji, as a young boy was very fond of telling Halloween stories. And don't start telling me, "He didn't say it in October". That doesn't matter. You see, in India, they have many more holidays than we have in the west. And many of those Holidays are much like our Halloween holiday. The Indians dress up in costumes, dance and tell scary stories. When Maharaji dressed up in His Krishna outfit and danced for us, it was His Halloween costume! And since they have such holidays several times a year in India, He could do it all the time. Why would anyone misundertand, and think He actually meant He was REALLY Krishna? Because He said so? He was JUST KIDDING! Kids will do that, boys will be boys. I think that since we only have Halloween once a year, it made people confused. This is why Maharaji had to emliminate the Indian Trappings, because of these kinds of cultural misunderstandings that were happening. Little Maharaji was just telling scary Halloween Indian stories, like his daddy used to tell Him. Some people thought it was real, just like when Orson Wells did that Radio show in the 1930's and some people thought it was a REAL invasion from Mars. That was also a Halloween misundertanding. See? Sh*t happens. And that comment about ruling the world, please! It was just youthful exuberance, merely the simple joie de vive of a 12 year old! Give the kid a break, He's allowed a little poetic license. None of us COOL premies believed it was REALLY true. I don't know a single modern PWK who would admit to it, and I assure you, NOBODY even talks about it! Mabye you just need to face facts, and admit that the misunderstanding was really all your fault, for not being cool enough. And STOP picking on poor LITTLE Maharaji! :| Andrea Eriksonn :), Who is not bothered by the past, because she knows that the past isn't like that anymore. P.S. I'll bet you were one of those guys who used to wear Sari's in the 70's, because you were so caught up in the Indian Trappings. Sheesh!

Subject: BRILLIANT!!!!!!!! [nt] From: Jim To: Andrea Eriksonn Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 14:27:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: CD must not think so -- he blocked me too! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:48:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny, isn't it? I was wondering how the premies there would react. Well, guess what? Now I know. :)

Subject: Good From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:53:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've stopped posting there on the advice of she who must be obeyed. You should have taken her advice too, Rumpole.

Subject: Re: Osama Bin Maharaji From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 08:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so when is the gospel according to Jim Heller comming out? Oh oh, no am using a friends computer. And really has anyone told you what a jerk you are? only asking. but I bet you won't even get to read this with your goody goody Putzy quick on the delete botton. Hey, someone found you a charicature, did they pass you the link. Do the people here know that you and your goody goody buddies Putzy are banned from AG, ya two wide eyes mongrols?

Subject: Take it up on Symp (you, too, OTS) From: Jim To: Salam Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:02:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salam, I would love to hear you explain all your wonderful, intelligent reasons for saying what you do. You, too, OTS. Why don't you guys join me for some good conversation over on Symp? Seems to be the best place for that kind of argument these days.

Subject: The NNTP Alternative. From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 09:40:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you guys join me for some good conversation over on Symp? Seems to be the best place for that kind of argument these days. How about alt.cult.maharaji ? No administrator or monitor worries. If you don't like someone you can put him in your 'kill file' so you never even see his posts. The downside is that you need news reader software and an NNTP server. MS Outlook comes bundled with a news reader and the Free University of Berlin maintains a free NNTP server for text only newsgroups (like alt.cult.mahavari). You can sign up for the server at News at FU-Berlin. They'll even tell you how to configure your software at: Configure Software. Of course most ISPs maintain an NNTP server, but I like the one at FU-Berlin anyway, since in rarely goes down and has a long spool (because it doesn't have any binary newsgroups gobbling up bandwidth). --Scott

Subject: Administrator worries? From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:11:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On The Symposium Forum, I draw the line at identity fraud, because as you yourself have said, it undermines everything about communication. I also draw the line at threats or intimidation, and gross violations of Hotboards TOS, but not much else, fun or no fun. The only people I've blocked at Symposium are Deborah, who would not be civil or reasonable, Barry, who was never a premie, and kept posting porn when I asked him not to, and Djuro, a spammer from Spain. The only posts I've deleted are spam. It's hardly the Third Reich. People can disagree or argue about anything they want. I try to moderate as little as possible, just enough to keep it from becoming Anarchical. You had complained about the identity fraud on AG. I've tried to eliminate that. Do you think there are administrator or monitor worries on Symposium? I'm trying to keep it simple, and administration as minimal as possible, without decending into anarchy.

Subject: Re: Administrator worries? From: Scott T. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:42:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck: You do a fine job on Symp. The point is that on Usenet one doesn't have to rely on having an administrator who is fair, accountable, and consistent. Basically, people manage their own access so if someone just disrupts without adding anything constructive people can just 'killfile' him. It's democratic, and there's an incentive to not 'take it to the limit.' However, because of crossposting it is possible to attract a very destructive crowd who knows how to stealthily hide their identities and IPs. There are programs that block cross-posted messages though. I think the newest version of Agent allows you to do that as well. That usually gets rid of most spam and 'professional' trolls, who are generally too lazy to post to individual newsgroups. The other main disadvantage of Usenet used to be that messages aren't archived, although there are search engines that now archive messages going back quite awhile... maybe years for text only newsgroups. So overall I think Usenet is the best venue for this sort of thing, because this is what Usenet was designed for. And messages load WAY QUICKER too. It preceded the WWW by more than a decade. A News Reader is no more difficult to set up than an email program, but for some reason seems daunting to some people. Oh well. --Scott

Subject: This reminds me... From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 22:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This reminds me of the discussion we had on Symposium, about getting people motivated to switch to new software that may be superior. While Usnet may have certian advantages and drawbacks, the fact is, people who already know how to navigate and post on a hotboards forum like this one, may not want to learn a new system. And people who have never been to a hotboards forum before, can find it easily if they know how to use a web browser on the internet. This system is relativly easy to learn. Newsgroups have a geek factor. I set up a newsreader once. I couldn't get one to work with Outlook Express, I finally got one to work with Netscape 4.5, but only got it to work with great difficutly, and then didn't like it much. I've read a little about Usenet, looked into Usenet, and have to say that I think many folks might find it too difficult, too geeky. People can just click on a link and find themselves here, without configuring a newsreader first. One of the most valid arguments against Linux on the desktop has been, that it may be easy to use once it's set up and tweaked and configured, but setting it up, tweaking and configuring it is hard, so people won't do it. Because windows is already installed on most new PC's when they are sold, it is the easiest choice, because it's already there and ready to go. In the same way, this Hotboards forum is here and ready to go, you just click on a link to get here. No newsgroup configuration necessary for the user. It's popular because it's the path of least resistance. I set up Symposium on Hotboards, simply because there was no learning curve in going from here to there. I've looked at many different forum hosts since then, and no other offers as much value for the price, and is as easy to learn, as Hotboards. It's not perfect, but it's easy to learn and it's already here.

Subject: Re: This reminds me... From: Scott T. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:43:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck: While Usnet may have certian advantages and drawbacks, the fact is, people who already know how to navigate and post on a hotboards forum like this one, may not want to learn a new system. And people who have never been to a hotboards forum before, can find it easily if they know how to use a web browser on the internet. I dunno. People who want to join discussions there don't seem to have a problem. Rocket science it's not. For 'virtual' discussions web forums like Hotboards are no more than a pale attempt at imitating Usenet. One of the most valid arguments against Linux on the desktop has been, that it may be easy to use once it's set up and tweaked and configured, but setting it up, tweaking and configuring it is hard, so people won't do it. Because windows is already installed on most new PC's when they are sold, it is the easiest choice, because it's already there and ready to go. Well, I assume you're talking about Internet Explorer, which is the browser. Most systems also come with Outlook Express installed, which contains an easily configurable news reader. It's about as difficult as setting up the email part of Outlook Express, and *everyone* has done that. Type in the name of the server, which is usually something like 'news.myisp.com'. Sometimes you also need an account name and password as well as an email address in case people want to post replys to you that everyone can't read. (Some people use fake emails to confound the spam software, and put the real email in as part of their signature, which isn't a bad idea.) If anything it's easier than email. The only reason you think it's not is that you've never tried it. I still prefer posting on Usenet. Hotboards may be easy and here, but you get what you pay for. A Usenet2 has been proposed, which will make some needed improvements on Usenet to make professional trollery more difficult. Hasn't taken off though. --Scott

Subject: Usenet... From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 11:36:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Outlook Express has always given me multiple problems on many fronts, and I abandoned it long ago in favor of web-based email, which I can access easily from work and home. I was never able to get a newsgroup to work with Outlook Express. But I've upgraded my browser since then, and it's got a newer version of Outlook Express, so I tried to configure newsgroups yet again. I had some authentication problems, and then when I tried to download newsgroups, it hung partway through, then crashed the computer. Eventually I was able to figure it out and get it to work, but I suspect that for a lot of people, it would be daunting. Many people who are on the internet nowadays are not very computer savy or interested in computers, they just want to surf the net and use email, and would probably be happy with and Internet device instead of a computer. With hotboards, you point and click and you are there, without having to configure anything. That has great appeal for the geek-challenged. Anyway, I found the Maharaji cult newsgroup. It doesn't seem to be very active. Seems to be a lot of commercial spam there. I find the graphical interface for Outlook News Reader to be very cramped (small print, small windows). Maybe it's better if you have a larger monitor, like the 17' or 19' ones that are so popular now, but I'm still using the 13' standard. You have to click on the '+' sign next to a thread to see the subposts. I prefer the way hotboards is, where you can see all the posts just by scrolling down, and because the print is so much larger. I can see Usenet has the advantage of being free without ad banners. But I think it still has a problem with being easily accessible for the geek-impaired. And can you edit your posts on there? And how many messages can accumulate, and for how long? And you say there is no archiving utility? I suppose the user interface takes some getting used to. Usenet has some newsgroups for some geeky things I'm interested in, so I'm sure I'll be looking at it some more, but I still think Hotboards may have some advantages Over Usenet, for premie/exe-premie forums. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can only wonder why most of the discussion moved from Usenet to other venues, if usenet was really ideal.

Subject: Re: Usenet... From: Scott T. To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 13:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chuck: You can set font size and type in the options menu. You can also alter the way the windows are divided. There's a someone more configurable program called 'Agent' (by Forte), but to be honest I preferred OE. (I'll probably get flamed for saying that by some Usenet purists, for whom Agent is *the* standard.) Another thing you can do, which is helpful for very busy groups, as that you can mark threads that you want to watch, and can use hotkey combinations for most of the functions. When you get tired of reading stuff, and it doesn't look like there's much left that interests you, you can just hit 'catch up' and everything is marked as read. So next time you log on you'll know that everything in dark print is 'new.' True, there's lots of commercial spam on Usenet. One of the neat thing about using the University of Berlin's news server is that they filter out a lot of the spam. I've just learned to ignore it. BTW, check out alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent now that you're on Usenet. It's one of the most active groups. There aren't any web forums for that topic, though there are some web based Usenet servers. I don't know much about them since Remarq got sold to Yahoo, but I think there are one or two that are pretty decent. That way you don't have to configure a newsreader. The downside is that you're stuck with whatever graphical interface that web server chooses to use. Usenet isn't perfect, but it's not bad either. --Scott --Scott

Subject: Thanks for the configuration tips.... From: Chuck S. To: Scott T. Date Posted: Mon, May 20, 2002 at 18:38:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can see Usenet has some advantages, and more options than is imediately apparent. I'm going to have to explore it further. When you said there are some web-based Usenet servers that don't require a newsreader, what did you mean? That it's hosted on a website? Is there one I could visit as an example? I'm curious. Thanks

Subject: East West journal article on EPO and From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:50:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: help needed. An Expressway over Bliss Mountain Hardhats may be needed past a certain point by Phil Levy Here's the article. But my software can't process, as the print quality seems too poor. Anybody wanting to type it - or able to OCR process it ?

Subject: I am not anti ex-premie From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:43:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, you might be sick of hearing about me and I can understand it if you are so I'll finish this on one final point, which I posted to Hamzen on The ANYTHING GOES forum. The church ladies I was aluding to were Jim and PatC, not the ex-premie presence in general. I find that Jim and PatC are too rigid and for that reason they could be described as church ladies. Like really vicious insult - not! Hamzen, in my original church ladies post, it was written to Salam who had expressed being fed up with the whole thing. Jim took my comments out of context. Of course I'm not against EPO or Forum 7. I still have links to both of them from my many ex-premie web sites. Some people may try and paint me as an anti-ex person but nothing could be further from the truth.

Subject: Yes, Dave, we see you're neither pro nor anti From: PatC To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:44:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Over on Symp you said: ''Well, I am not ashamed of the post. It was not written to you or Jim but to Salam, in words he would be able to relate to. It was to Salam, not to anyone else although of course, other people could read it and make their own minds up about it. But I stress, it was written to Salam with full understanding of his frame of mind. You would have to read his post that I was answering to, to understand why I wrote the post.'' If it was only meant for Salam, why did you then post it on LG and not just on AG? You can try to be all things to all men but you can't have your cake and eat it, as Shakespeare said in ''Much Ado About Nothing'' or was that the Mother's Day card I sent to my ex mother-in-law? Sir Dave's post on LG www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=8985.4346791538423

Subject: Re: I am not anti ex-premie From: OTS To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 06:32:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I totally agree with your analysis of Jim and PatC's roles here. I also agree that the value of EPO and F7 are LARGE. and Jim's and PatC's SMALL.

Subject: Sorry you find me rigid, OTS. From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 11:52:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In what way would you say I could be more flexible? Be a bit more jokey and not quite as po-faced and pious as I am? :C) Fudge? Tell fibs? Tolerate fibs? Tolerate fudge? Pray tell, oh wise one. But you do realise, don't you, that your opinions would carry much greater weight if we knew who you were?

Subject: No Biggie From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:02:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're doing fine PatC, but you assumed something about where I got my information that was totally incorrect and accused me of perhaps something I wasn't a part of. Anyway, no biggie. In fact, I love you PATC. And hope you're finer and finer forever. I won't be continuing to post, but I thank EVERYONE on EPO for their assistance in my life. Don't sweat it, Pat. Keep up your good efforts which are sincere. We're all not and never will be perfect. Cheers to all

Subject: Re: No Biggie From: Thorin To: OTS Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:44:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OTS Excuse me if I butt in on this private conversation - I hope you don't mind. OTS, I have always found your posts and thoughts to be illuminating and useful. As indeed I do with Patc an Jim's posts. I hope that you will feel in due course coming back here and posting. I would welcome that very much. Thanks, Thorin

Subject: I don't understand, OTS From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 13:57:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't like misunderstandings especially if I have misunderstood something. Would you explain to me please? I thought you were agreeing with Sir Dave that I am rigid. If you don't want to post maybe tell me by email? I've been meaning to email you and see how you are. I'm sorry you haven't been posting and won't post anymore.

Subject: I'm Fine, thanks From: OTS To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:06:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pls e-mail me. Thanks.

Subject: Good, I will email you. [nt] From: PatC To: OTS Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:41:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Don't mind him, Pat From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:25:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's just got this seething anger thing. Too bad but it's true.

Subject: Oh, I thought it was because From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 12:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have any sense of humor and am boring and bossy and block everyone and delete all the posts every night.

Subject: Cher is God From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 19:35:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonight on Will and Grace, Cher plays the part of God. She took lessons from Thelma. You too can be Satguru www.geocities.com/cmsjourney/sc/satgooroo/u2satgooroo.htm

Subject: Eeeek ! From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 21:06:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Faqir Chand: No. I used to pray to him within my own mind. I never went to any place. Once I was going and Lord Krishna was going ahead of me. There was some cow dung lying on the ground. That image of Lord Krishna asked me to eat that cow dung. I took a morsel of cow dung and ate it.

Subject: question to new exes From: rgj To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 15:48:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of people recently announced that they were abandoning their affiliation to Rawat, and mentioned the EPO as helping them to make the break. I would just like to ask anyone willing to share which part of EPO was most significant in helping them to 'see the light': the information about Guru trips, revelations from PAMs in the know, the Journeys, the forum discussions, or just the cumulative effect. TIA Rob

Subject: I've never lost a premie yet From: Lesley To: rgj Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 14:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji was widely purported to have said that, and as a premie, I believed it, I guess I just thought that some premies were having difficulties but would come round, Maharaji was looking after them. And that is how I viewed premies who left. So when I heard about EPO, I thought how come nobody is talking to them, and logged on. The thing that got me was reading the old stuff, reading the journeys and posts in which exes talked frankly about the early days of DLM, what we were told, and told eachother, what we did, what we believed. I just sat there going 'how could I have forgotten that?!?'. I became aware of how the forked tongue path I had followed of Listening to the Master had gone nowhere but round a mulberry bush, and that retaining the early belief that Guru Maharaji spoke the Truth, had produced a situation where I, along with the other listeners, had been playing a sort of simon sez game with him, the prize being acceptance, being a 'politically correct premie'. There was a line written by an ex about a batch of burnt cookies and not trusting Maharaji to peel a potato that struck a huge chord with me. I would just like to add that life after premiedom frequently reminds me of that old saying about hitting your head against a brick wall, it's great when you stop. Sure, there has been a lot of hard feelings, a lot to digest, but after nearly thirty years of the drudge job, the game of being a premie, retirement is bliss! I know that premies who know me, have witnessed the fun and the pleasure I had as a premie, find it hard to understand how I can now turn around and say it was a drudge job, a painfully stupid game paid for with real assets. The gratitude and affection I feel for my old friends remains undiminished, despite the lack of current communication, I hope they do understand one day.

Subject: Burnt Cookies From: Marshall To: Lesley Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 18:58:35 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Lesley, As I understand it the 'burnt cookies' crap started with gmj himself of all things. At a late 90's gathering gmj sid that his current premies were akin to a 'batch of burnt cookies' and then he threatened to get a 'new batch' of premies. Raw and uncooked I suppose.

Subject: ignore. nt From: test To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 23:41:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: And who burnt the cookies? [nt] From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:04:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 07:00:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well that's nice, isn't it! He brainwashes us with a load of old Hindu concepts for 20 years and then when we find it hard to move on swiftly to the new revised model, suggests blithely that he'll drop us all in favour of a new batch he can brainwash with a different story. Then I suppose in a few years he'll need to get rid of that lot too and start on another lot, and so on and so on. The only ones that will stick around for the whole duration will be those who have totally taken leave of any integrity, ethics and selves they ever had, leaving nothing but a bare shell that he can manipulate into any shape he wants. Looking at what signs of life exist over at LG (with only a couple of exceptions) you can see the evidence plain and clear. Shiver. Love, Livia, who is glad she got out just in time.

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 10:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Livia, I've been thinking, is burnt actually a word? Is it supposed to be burned? Is burnt a corrupt slang form of burned? Does it matter? Am I in my mind for wondering/worrying about this stuff? Ciao, Marshall

Subject: Re: burnt or burned From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 15:56:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry about being 'in your mind' for wondering about this stuff! 'Burnt' is in my dictionary here as verb: 'past tense and past participle of burned', and adjective: 'affected by or as if by burning, charred. Burned isn't listed but I think it's the past tense of 'burn'. They're pretty interchangeable, but you would tend to say 'burnt cookies' rather than burned, and 'the fire burned through the night' rather than burnt. In other words you'd use burned for a slower process, and burnt for a fait accompli, or something. I think. love, Livia, in a grammatical mood

Subject: Re: Burnt Cookies From: Lesley To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 18, 2002 at 12:51:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes it's an adjective I suppose, describing the state of something that has been burned.

Subject: Re: question to new exes From: Coming Around To: rgj Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all... thanks to Brian, Richard and PatC for their supportive comments.. as I continue to sort things out, perhaps some day I'll get to know some of you a little better (are any of you located in the LA area?).. Anyway, in response to your question, rgi, it really has been a cumulative effect, but the first hook that got my attention had to be testimonies from Dettmers, Donner,the Mishler interview, and a few other PAM's that were first hand witnesses to M 'behind the scenes'. From there I was inspired to go deeper into all aspects of EPO and spent MANY hours reading threads after threads. I once again thank the individuals who put together such a comprehensive site and present an extremely defensible stance as to why anyone currently under 'the spell' should step back and review the facts. For myself, I was meditating on fairly similar techniques before I met M, and I have discovered that I can still experience a peaceful quiet feeling from meditation without the pranam before and after (thanking him for everything)... I bought the 'Lord of the Universe' package, and that is what has crushed me- to discover that I am not one of the fortunate beggars on the planet that was blessed to have the Lord reveal himself to me (and that if I simply stay connected through meditation, darshan, and participation, I'll be saved and make it to the promised land...) My life up to this point was centered around M & K, and now I find myself approaching 50 without any real carreer skills to make serious money for retirement because I walked away from offers from my parents to stay in college for the 'Knowledge we couldn't get in College'... hence, I'm experiencing some bitterness and regret, among other emotions... but I guess I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll sign off for the time being... thanks again

Subject: Thanks Coming Around From: Marianne To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:19:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome! Making the first few posts is always tough. It can be especially so due to a few premies who may decide to taunt you, and challenge your identity as a newly minted ex-premie. Since you have been reading for a long time, you know it can get rough and tumble here sometimes. There are many folks here who will lend a helping hand and post should you get targeted by those still in the thrall of the Master. I am always curious about new folks. Are you comfortable telling us when and where you got k and from whom? Were you an ashram premie? How did you find the site? There are lots of exes all over California. Again welcome. I look forward to your continued contributions. Marianne

Subject: Re: Thanks Coming Around From: Coming Around To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:37:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First- thank you for your comments... as I stated before, for my own reasons, I'm not quite ready to come out of the closet just yet, so by answering your question of when, where and from whom I recieved k would probably start some smart card info keeper to do a little research and the games would begin... yes I was a long time ashram resident... I'm a little hesitant to respond to how I discovered the EPO site because it was quite by accident, and I wouldn't want that avenue potentially prevented for some other premie like me to discover in the future.

Subject: hello CA and welcome but Dont be Afraid From: Loaf To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 20:55:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been posting here regularly for a few years, and mention my own name (Ian Warburton) and location (Liverpool UK) from time to time. At first I was extremely nervous - just like you. I felt that I was being disloyal and that Glen Whittaker (whom I like, Maharaji and other people would know who I was and hate me for being here. I was quite a well known person in my community.An Instructor candidate in the UK, young and enthusiastic, I threw myself as deeply into Knowledge and the social pyramid of premies as I could, and for the most part, loved every minute of it. So, having been a verbal and visible ex for a few years now, its odd that my local co-ordinator type person (Paddy Best) doesnt seem to have a CLUE what is going on (And those PWSK who know her will be chuckling !) and comes round to see me socially the other day and babbles on and on about Australia to me. I think the important thing to remember is that THEY are all too insecure, looking after their own 'relationship' with Maharaji to really care about you coming or going. We as individuals are not as important to them as we flatter ourselves. They dont SEE us as people, just supporting actors in their own movie starring PPSR. The problem is that in allowing Maharaji to become a sub-concious role model and father-figure, it is THAT which we project onto him that it is hard to turn away from, or to deny. Judas mythology abounds. It is an amazing journey Exiting. It Does get better and more blissful (it has for me) as I re-integrate myself with my psychology and social needs. Just remember that what started you out on this journey was the search for the truth (concious or not) - and the search continues ! We are very fortunate to have experienced what we have... and to have outgrown the need for a particular teacher is NO MATTER OF SHAME. Good luck my friend, and welcome to the company of Truth. Loafie

Subject: Thats it! Judas! The keyword. From: Bryn To: Loaf Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:42:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once again its me clinging to your coatails Loaf, but YES YES, Judas. Judas is such a powerful hidden figure in all this. Judas, the one who sold the lord. 'It would have been better for him if he had never been born' etc. The one who really blew it. Thats how they treat you and thats how you treat yourself. NOBODY wants to be Judas. JUDAS! (....breaking into opening bars of 'Like a Rolling Stone) Love BD

Subject: Thanks Coming Around From: PatC To: Coming Around Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 17:55:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like your calm clear voice, CA. For me seeing who's behind the wizard's curtain was the most important part of EPO. It didn't seem like it at first because first you say, ''Well, his human side is endearing.'' Then perhaps, ''Well, that's just Mischler's opinion.'' Then stuff like the hit-and-run homicide sink in. I think one must be very deluded to then continue to have any respect for Rev Rawat. Well, that is amply demonstrated by the perverse posts of the forum cult-apologists.

Subject: Welcome to CA & Answer to rgj From: Crispy To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 10:10:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello rgj. I'm not exactly sure why you would be asking. If you're an ex yourself, you probably have your own reasons. Maybe you are contemplating exing or a curious pwk trying to probe or gage the phenomena of why people are leaving Mj's world in droves, both silently and vocally. Maybe you are a defender of the faith just trying to understand the enemy of the faith. In any case, I would like to answer. I didn't start reading EPO until last fall after a KIT training session I attended. Before that I was enjoying a nice experience of Knowledge in our quiet, small, peaceful, friendly outfield community where only the very refined organization-edited news would reach our unsuspecting ears. I had heard of an ex-premie website causing a lot of damage to Mj's public rep, but never felt bothered to read it. I had the attitude of 'why disturb a nice experience that was working just fine for me by engaging someone else's doubts and confusions'. However, the KIT was my final drip (or coagulation point as AJW described) that gave me the feeling it was time to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. As I was driving away from that training session, my thoughts were this will be the last training session I attend; I really don't need this anymore and I really don't want to continute being a part of what was becoming an obvious deceptive charade. Mj's not-so-pretty colors were emerging and he had slipped just far enough off the pedestal I had him on for 2 decades to make me consider that he's a human being with enough flaws that can and should be questioned, perfect master or not. All my premie fears of the dangers of engaging mind, questioning the perfect one, other premies' contempt for exes, etc. were just not good enough any more to stop me at that point. I knew I wasn't doubting the experience; I was questioning the imperfect system and getting to know its leader more completely - to get a feel for the real man behind the scenes, behind the show. I found EPO easily via net search. My initial reaction was the scoffing sarcasm and the decades-old-observations-stance were a bit discrediting. But my drip was strong enough to continue reading - I wanted to hear what they had to say. I started with Dettmers, Mishler's and Macgregor's posts because I knew they were intelligent, sincere devotees and had a much closer look at the every-day Prem. I would say the lines that started my gears rolling the most were 'the Master-Student relationship is dysfunctional; and Mj may have started out sincerely but he's just got the equation around the wrong way: the mind is our self, our discrimination, while K is the illusion.' These were, of course, a lot to chew on at first! But they held up more strongly under examination than the beliefs I had held dearly for so long. And it was not just EPO that alerted me to the reality of what had been going down. Books about cult mind control techniques also greatly helped me over the exit curve. They identified all the disguises and traps premies had ignorantly fallen into, ironic as it is that people inside a cult can't see that it's a cult. But then again, not so ironic, as it was these techniques that harboured the tricks. Before officially exiting, I sent an email to Maharaji asking him to directly respond to me about all the accusations placed against him. I specified that lines like 'What you dig up is what you will find', or 'seek perfection in Knowledge, not me or my organization', or ' let your heart be the judge' or ' by his fruits you will know him' - none of these lines are relevant any more in light of the picture I'm faced with. I specified if my devotion means anything to him, then please respond or I will consider the accusations true and withdraw my support. I've never sent anything remotely threatening to him in any way before, but now I felt it was due. It was too crucial. Yes, I have a nice experience in meditation. But I could have same from many different sources, and more honest sources. In that light I could say I respect Krishnamurti more than Maharaji. Maharaji's silence is tightening the last screw in his own coffin. In December I started lurking on F7. In January I exited with an official bang by posting my impressions of the KIT training, not out of grudges and hatred, but out of wanting to contribute to the effort of making the deception known publicly. A lot of criticisms have been given to exes for swallowing concepts from malicious sources. But that's way too lame in light of the drips I've seen. I'm exhilarated to be able to stake my own flag on my own ground with my own experience, which, by the way, trained pwk's are not allowed to do without *You Know Who's* permission. On re-reading your question of what was the most significant influence, I would also like to note that it was my own personal drips as a premie that laid the groundwork for my receptivity to EPO's message in the first place, the KIT training session being the last straw. I knew I was on my way out of premiedom for good while driving home after that session. Crispy: Sun in Lurker, Moon in Me-Too, and Ascendant on the cusp of Grunter and Pithy Phrase

Subject: thank you forum 7 From: Coming Around... To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After 30 years (some good, some not)I discovered EPO around January of 2002, and it's been a pretty intense period of my life... depression, bitterness, confusion, to name a few... Slowly, I'm coming around, and soon i feel I will come out of the closet and post under my name with my entire journey, but today I just want to give a heartfelt THANK YOU to all who give their time and energy to this forum and EPO... I might have stayed in the trance for another 30 years had it not been for you. I'm feeling like I was lost, found, and now lost again (as far as spiritual truth), but I would rather be lost and consciously searching than living in a dream, funding someone elses yachts, etc... more later. thanks again..

Subject: I totally understand From: Brian Smith To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 16:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Having just exited after 29 years Jan 2001 and I can freshly relate to all of those feelings you described in your post. The bitterness the confusion, the depression of having the most sacred part of yourself violated; these feelings are a significant part of the process many of us go through. But rest assured they will pass away in time. In my case after a time these feeling gave way to a renewed sense of restored personal integrity. Instead of trying to rope someone into my self perceived superior belief system I now possess the clarity to accept people on their own terms and not look for ways to provoke or bring up spiritual issues just so I can pontificate MY version of enlightment via the rawat method. It is refreshing for the first time in ages that I can just be with someone and not carry this baggage of laying this heavy cult and cult leader trip on them at some point. I no longer have the need to find some way to get a spiritual foot in the door and introduce them to the local video event or whatever. Today I am free from all of that and more. I am finding that the journey of reclaiming ones self will is far more exciting and empowering than anything rawat ever showed me. This is self knowledge at its best and all one needs is one's own self to travel the journey. No need to be emotionally enslaved to a false master or his bogus teachings or strive for acceptance from a cult group to complete a sense of belonging and direction. It is quite freeing and it gets better as I get stronger with each passing month. My commitment today is to help as many people as I can transition out of the cult. The intial stage of exiting can be quite fragile and confusing so please feel free to contact me off line if you would like to talk privately. All the best to you CA, Brian Smith

Subject: Welcome C.A. From: Richard To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:47:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Be easy on yourself and let those feelings fly. It's a real 'meglolis' to unravel for sure. I look forward to hearing more of your story. All the best on your continued journey. Take care, Richard

Subject: 'Meglolis'! Yes! Ho Ho . Nt From: Bryn To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 17, 2002 at 03:46:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Welcome to the Lost Boys of Neverland From: PatC To: Coming Around... Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:18:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said: ''I would rather be lost and consciously searching than living in a dream, funding someone elses yachts, etc'' We all feel a lot cleaner and more honest not having phony answers to equally phony questions.

Subject: Boys? Pat? From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 13:50:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ummm...last time I looked...well...never mind.:)

Subject: Sorry, Wendy. :P [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 16, 2002 at 14:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

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