Subject: P. Halley's 3rd letter and From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:54:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat Halley's Third Letter to ex-premies and a summation of the whole issue Murder Attempt in Denver Now on EPO. Thanks to Swami Suchabanana, Will, M Donner, Pat Halley et all

Subject: Pat Halley/ Fakiranand From: Mike Finch To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 10:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi EPO WebMasters I like the EPO page detailing this episode, and Mike Donner's stuff, but I think you should for completeness put some of Nick's posts in there. If you remember, several times Nick has posted that in the months between the pie attack and the Millenium event he was driving Fakiranand in Switzerland. This shows that right after the attack Fakiranand was still a trusted Mahatma, doing the usual Mahatma tour, but just not in the US. And if he was put on a flight from US to India, he clearly got off it in Europe and stayed there for a while. -- Mike

Subject: Not Denver, but Detroit! From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 06:16:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just fixed my mistake: Murder Attempt in Detroit

Subject: Where's your Kingdom Prem? From: PatD To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 17:07:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who the fuck are you anyway? One million people gathered together today in London,of their own volition,to celebrate the Queen of England's golden jubilee.Now this woman has never promised to show anyone God within(unlike your own good self),has never stated that she can turn the bombs into petals,in fact has never promised anything except what she promised when she was crowned,which was that she would serve her people. Remember that word Prem,'serve',you made a big deal out of it & a shit load of bread you little bastard. Time was when you were tipped for the top job,& I don't mean the poxy queen of england but the Lord of the Universe.So what went wrong? Something did for sure & guess what,it was you. You never were up to the job because you never believed it yourself,not deep down. You knew your dad was a bullshit artist who slipped bhang into his devotees late night drinks.You were a nasty little retard as a teenager who fed his earnest followers laxatives,& a grotesque monster in later life who got even more followers to do up a clapped out jet.Then you sold it to that other god botherer the maharishi. I know who you are ; you're the little kid who's achieved his lifelong ambition of being a pilot. You stink.

Subject: Prem Rawat has a golden toilet From: Sir David To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 18:04:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While HRH Queen Elizabeth II has a golden carriage.

Subject: Whoa, bro...lets do some hash. Andrea? From: Andy Daverdson To: Sir David Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:23:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like whoa, dudes, like we're all on the same team here, right, bro? I mean like it's so far out that we can follow the lord of the universe, er, the 'speaker' of the universe, have our own little religion on the side, smoke some dope and drink some hash flavored chai....I mean c'mon bro, you can't do that in the lutheran church, right?...not even the Unitarians will let you do stuff like that, so, I mean it's so far out that we can all get high and be with the living satguru, right? So let's all get on the same page and get high with our lord, OK? Hey listen, dudes, I know some really far out dudes who live in malibu and I think they've even seen the golden comode where the divine hiney plants itself from time to time, and I mean, if you play it cool, like really cool, maybe I can get you inside the rez one day, and who knows, maybe you can get a peek at it, OK?..maybe even do some service, and clean it for 'you know who', so he can do you know what'... So let's stop the petty squabblng, and get blitzed with the satguru, OK? Andrea, how about a little backup here for your bro... Give us some good old heavy 'sang, with a little cosmic guilt thrown in, ok? Later, dudes....stay high....and...testify... Andy Daverdson

Subject: great read on LG.Can someone link it? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 15:16:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a very recent post from Will to Carlos and Harry, Will makes some very interesting points about surrendering to the 'almighty', vs. surendering to the 'filament'(paypal).... Can someone bring it over, or link it? I thought it was excellent...

Subject: Here it is From: vicki To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 15:35:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, I liked your three questions. Why would you think I wouldn't like your post? I know what I write here does sound like mental masturbation. I have no problem admiting that, but that's because I realize we all go through such stuff in our heads. My 'version' of Knowledge, when I practiced it, was what could be called the Upanishadic version, especially the Katha Upanishad and the Chandogya Upanishad, very much in line with your three questions. Harry, You get more interesting all the time. The specific personal interactions with Prem that you speak about do paint a very appealing picture. I myself do not have any such experience to call my own. I hear about a very opposite type of interaction, posted on the negative site recently - about the words that he said to Ron when Ron wrecked the golf cart (I wish you had broken your fucking neck). So that's quite a contrast for me to deal with. You have grown a bit weary (and maybe a bit wary) of our conversation, so I won't push it. But do allow me to make just one rejoinder here, about the relinquishing of power. You brought up sex, which is certainly apropos. Love involves the relinquishing of separateness, and this is, indeed, what we are talking about here. Remember in Long Beach 1997 when the question came up about continuing all night long. Prem said: 'We're not having sex here.'? So the point that we concur on is: the play of union comes in degrees. I have never had the opportunity to submit to Prem Rawat's will, say he wants a television to be purchased and brought to a certain location, and he tells me so and I comply. (I know somebody who has done that). Most premies have only had the opportunity to submit to Maharaji's will in the practice of Knowledge as he prescribes it, which is different than Prem Rawat's will. I think you will grant me the distinction. But the relinquishing of will that I really mean to talk about is what happens when we die, or when we meditate. I shall tell you Will's technique of meditation. I only have one. First you must promise not to reveal it to anyone else, since it is mine. Be alone in a quiet room, sit and close your eyes and become quiet, ask for help, (not with words), ask for love, (not with words), relinquish your power to the power that is living you. You will notice that my technique is different from the recent version of #3, where the teacher pushes the student on a swing. Such an image is the stuff of good poetry, but not the inner reality. The teacher does not push that swing and it is not to the teacher that that specific relinquishing (or gratitude) goes. I trust you will still grant me the distinction. Meher Baba, the Avatar, (or one of them), said that 'when one gets Divine Knowledge, one not only feels oneself in every one and in every thing, but one then actually lives the free life of God. A Master can give this Knowledge any moment, providing there is sufficiently deep and strong connection with him, or there is complete surrender to his will.' Is that the path of a premie? Surrender to Prem Rawat's will? Surrender to Maharaji's will? Relinquishing our power in that particular way, by joining that stage and playing a little part in Rawat's group of followers, synchronizing our individualilty with the other bit players, and all the other things he has tried to train his students to do? And this is our difficulty, you and me both, whether you care to admit it or not. Surrender to the power within and/or surrender to the Avatar, the Master, the human guru figure, the teacher. Is it the same act of reqlinquishing? Are both acts equally authentic? The guru says that surrendering your will to him is the same as surrendering your will to the Higher Power. You paraphrased my take on all this as being a person who wanted to 'get there' on my own, by my own efforts, without any help. That is such an incorrect rephrasing. I DO want help, all the help I can get. In fact, that is the essence of my practice. I don't want to do it on my own, as if I could consentrate so hard that I would pop into the Infinite, or that I would do such great service that the Lord would reward me. No. Quite the contrary. I only want to relinquish the power that I don't really have anyway. And I only want to get to where I am. When you die, according to some people, there are three or four or five doors, kinda like that old game show 'Let's make a deal.' The doors are closed and you can't know what is behind them until AFTER you choose one. They are marked Jesus, Buddha, and Prem Rawat, nos. 1, 2, and 3, etc. So the person is standing there, his teeth chattering in fear. Which door to pick? I might end up with a lovely dining room set or a big pile of donkey shit. But that's not really how it is, I don't suppose. Rather, I think, there is only one door and it doesn't have any markings, and you don't have three or four or five choices. You only have one choice, whether to go quietly or struggling. That's my practice of meditation. Voluntarily putting myself in that space where I have no choice, only to go quiety with surrender or to struggle with the human mind's ignorance. Prem Rawat says that he is not the power source, but that he is the filament. Without him, the filament, no one gets light. But that still puts him inside of me. And that is false. Simply and utterly false. He is not the filament. We each have our own filament. My filament was inside me before Prem Rawat was born. That is the lie of guruism. We must live authentically. Authentically to ourselves. I cannot submit my will to Prem Rawat's will because I do not live close enough to him. Even if I did, I cannot submit because I don't particularly like the four techniques and I don't really consider them his property. Even if I did, I can't submit because he's just a human being. I can't be a premie because I can't authentically submit. Enough. To him. Later.

Subject: Vancouver Event From: Y.B.A. Pwick To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (PDT) Email Address: YBAPWK@tprf.orgy Message: Got yer SmartCard? You can register now for an Event in Vancouver, BC. Only $85US / $130CN for an amazing opportunity to hang with the PR for two whole hours! Special Prasad not included. Vancouver registration www.mediaranch.ca/conference/

Subject: of upcoming events? From: Where is the list To: Y.B.A. Pwick Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 04:46:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can no longer find them on EV sites or PR site. Is everything still hush hush until the final minute? Is he coming around anywhere else here in Canada, Montreal, perhaps?

Subject: You want a list? From: Richard To: Where is the list Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 09:33:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean an actual list of events so people could plan more than a week ahead of time, book bargain flights and arrange for vacation time? You can't be serious. That would be too easy and just like the real world. What do you expect? He's only been doing events for 30 years now. The last few events I attended in the late 90's I found out about on an earlier version of this forum - not joking. The announcement from Élan Vital was usually in my mailbox when I got home AFTER the event. M once said something to the effect: It's not good if the premies have too much time to think about whether they want to go to an event or not. Too little time is just enough time. Keep 'em in a state of anxiety and then do a program with no lead time. Creates excitement and spontaneity for the otherwise bored middle aged premies. Such lila, such surrender, such arrogance.

Subject: And after a while ... From: Francesca To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... such disinterest. What a drip that was, seeing the manipulation and how stupid it all was. I just stopped caring. Like I'm really going to go to my boss and say -- I need three days off from work next week to go see my meditation teacher. It's so important, and yet I'm given so little notice. And it was such an ODD request, in the context of the rest of my life. And I of course have to book the most expensive flights going to get there. Yeah right, sure, uh huh. After a while I started looking around and smelling the coffee -- seeing that other organizations plan major conventions 6 months to a year ahead of time, and often have them at the same time every year. I no longer felt that Maharaji and EV were special, I felt like they were all clueless. From the massa on down. And yes, very ODD, in the context of the rest of my life. --F

Subject: Re: And after a while ... From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:26:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, good to see you Francesca. When I had to get a dreaded outside job in Denver, I worked as a waiter at the Magic Pan in Larimer Square. The wait staff was about 1/3 to 1/2 premies. During that phase of a program every 19 days (1976?), the manager called a special meeting. He said: 'OK, all the gurus meet on the patio.' LOL. He proceeded to explain how difficult it was to cover our jobs when we'd run off en mass (pun applies) every couple of weeks. Further, referring to our annoying habit of quickie Satsang at work he said: 'There's something weird about any religion that you need to tell each other how beautiful it is constantly.' Yes, I know this happened many years ago but the way M treats his followers hasn't changed. You want to attend an event, you drop everything and pay the bills later. I know people who are still paying off bills after going to Amaroo several years ago when M decided he couldn't be bothered to show up as promised. For them, the drip was a downpour.

Subject: Re: And after a while ... From: Thorin To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 14:00:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's something weird about any religion that you need to tell each other how beautiful it is constantly What a gem!! LOL Thanks for that Thorin

Subject: oops, duplicate NT From: Richard To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:26:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: to AV From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:19:13 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Dear AV Just wanted to finalise plans on possibly meeting up and jollying along to the upcoming 'events'. Perhaps you could email sometime (as above) and make contact. Please do use a screen name (using yahoo, hotmail or whatever). No pressure whatsoever to 'come out'. Total discretion absolutly assured. Love, Thorin

Subject: Another anti-expremie site by Garble From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:28:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another anti-expremie site by Garble www.geocities.com/exitism/exitism/just.html

Subject: Re: Another anti-expremie site by Garble From: Mickey the Pharisee To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 05:29:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee Pat, why do you even bother to post this crap here? It seems to me that we only find out about these goofy sites when someone directs us to them. Does anyone other than exes even see these things (well, I guess there's the bunch on LG)? I think that it is Salaam again, using stuff from Deborah's 'Intellectual Tool' box.

Subject: Sorry, Mickey, but it was worth it From: PatC To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 11:01:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You provided my first laugh of the morning when you said: ''I think that it is Salaam again, using stuff from Deborah's 'Intellectual Tool' box.''

Subject: About Salaam? From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 07:58:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought he was an ex. Hasn't he been posting here for years?

Subject: Re: About Salaam? From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 09:40:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought he was an ex. Hasn't he been posting here for years? --- Yes, it's a puzzlement isn't it? Deborah was an ex too and now she's singing the praises of the master on LG. Go figure.

Subject: I would have to give it a 'D' From: Zelda To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:54:24 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: wow that one is a collectors item. What is Catholic Exism and is he for or against it?? It seems like the 'premis' is something he likes......... This has to be the work of one person. A group of people would never ok such a mess . The puncutation is so twisted that it makes it seem like what he is objecting to is what he approves of. it appears to be translated from another language into pidgon English. It needs to be re written so it makes some sense. Otherwise it is not doing much for the anti-ex movement. I suggest that a few of them get a committe together and have editorial email sessions so they can get a proper page that is readable and makes some sense. good effort but I would have to give it a 'D'

Subject: On second thought From: Zelda To: Zelda Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: now I get it. some ex made that page - the 'copycat' Pink Thing -as a way to discredit the so called 'anti-ex' movement. If another incomprehensible Pink thing was released it would make the whole Pink Movement loose credibltiy!!! good thinking! it was very well done

Subject: The Mysterious Garble From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:39:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Mysterious Garble www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame80.html

Subject: Re: The Mysterious Garble From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:23:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: *quiet* was obviously a Garble then. Love, Livia

Subject: Drug laced Prasad From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Does anyone here know or suspect that food or drink from Maharaji given to premies was laced with drugs without the premies' knowledge? Just asking:) John.

Subject: too bad I missed out on it !!!! From: trollo To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:57:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Drug laced Prasad From: An Observer To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:38:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This forum is more hilarious than the comics...when you run out of topics you simply make up your own....and others gladly join in with their own diahrea of make-believe. get a life guys...

Subject: Let me explain, and then you can judge me From: JHB To: An Observer Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:02:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received information through private communication that such a practice may well have occurred. If it is true that Maharaji did this, then it is a serious allegation, and deserves wider publication. If it is not true, then fine. As webmaster of www.ex-premie.org I would need corroboration before I could publish such an allegation. I cannot think of any other way to try to get that corroboration. Can you? John.

Subject: Re: Let me explain, and then you can judge me From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:42:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was stuff you could get sporadically via the ashrams in the very early days. A kind of brown goo which came in a gaudy can with Hindi script on it.You took a teaspoonful & dissolved it in hot milk to make a nighttime drink;a bit like horlicks. If it had dope in it the quantity wasn't sufficient to be noticeable,but it sudddenly wasn't avaiable anymore, the reason being given that Customs&Excise had objected to its importation on the grounds that it did contain cannabis. Maybe this is what your correspondent is referring to? I'm pretty sure we called it 'prashad',but I can't remember for certain.

Subject: That wasn't dope From: Disculta To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:58:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was an ayurvedic remedy that the Prem Nagar ashram used to manufacture, called Chyavan Prash. Mmm Good stuff! The Maharishi organization still makes this stuff.

Subject: Re: That wasn't dope - but it was delicious! From: cq To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 10:04:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of my best memories of ashram life was the occasional spoonful of what we called Charan Prash (spelling or pronunciation must have been 'received' as it were!) What's more, I've just discovered it's still available - but not in that pretty (though occasionaly rusty) tin it used to come in (see link above). Dope in it? I doubt it. Apparently it's one of India's Dabur Research Foundation's best selling products. the "dope" on charanprash www.indiamart.com/pravekkalp/chyawanprash.html

Subject: Musli Kand Sveat From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 13:01:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That must've been the ingredient that got up the excise men's snooters. Typical of premies : you never could get a straight explanation for why even the simplest & most innocuous things ever happened,or in this case,had stopped happening. Sorry to admit it Disculta,cq,& Carl;I never much cared for the stuff myself,but then not being in the ashram I suppose I wasn't on the same level of sensory deprivation as you guys. I preferred Horlicks,chocolate biscuits,&(sob)the occasional spliff.

Subject: When I was at Prem Nagar From: Carl To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 20:51:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to eat that stuff by the spoonful. You could buy a big can of it for not too much money. (It was rupees, after all). It was extremely rich tasting, very herbal, sweetish, a bit gritty. My mood did get slightly elevated, but not at all stoned as one would by toking hashish. It was called 'Chavan Prash', or something similar. Chavran? Charvan? Something like that. I clearly recall the story being widely circulated about M dispensing dope-laced lhassi (sp?). They were SO lucky, those that got into that bit o' lila. That was the thinking.

Subject: One thing for sure From: Jean-Michel To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:55:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is that the chai in the Indian camp (Santyogashram) used to put me in a strange state (high) I never got anywhere else ..... That was in the 80s and 90s. The westerners were not allowed there, but I'd go nevertheless because of my 'service' in that area.

Subject: Re: One thing for sure From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 13:33:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah well,we can't even get to the bottom of what he's got up to in the west,let alone India. Lightly drugging his followers wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Subject: Think it's funny, eh? From: Was There To: An Observer Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The stories told here are true because we are unafraid to tell the truth. Quite different from your make-it-up-as-I-go master. In this case, these stories reveal much about the person we put our trust in and you apparently still do. Speaking of make believe, it's amazing how any person in their right mind can believe the revision Mr. PR is putting out these days. Glad you are so amused. PR is screwing with you as you laugh.

Subject: Re: Drug laced Prasad From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:06:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Stories were often told about GMK giving some of the first Western premies Bhang (sp?) which is a yoghurt drink laced with hashish. If you consider ExLax a drug, then I was given drug laced prasad. Myself and some other premies were hanging out in the NY ashram the night before the Jumbo flight to India in 1972. GMJ was in the building and we were hoping to have darshan. Mahatma Rajeshwar gathered us in one room for 'special prasad'. We could hear GMJ giggling in the nearby kitchen. Rajeshwar came out and with great ceremony gave us each a dolop of 'prasad'. Later we learned (and independantly verified) it contained a lot of chocolate flavored ExLax - a laxative. How shall I put this delicately - IT WORKED!!! Actually it must have been therapeutic because I never got sick in India. Such a joker that boy guru was.

Subject: I sure think so in one case From: bill To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:37:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: remember that guy milky who bugged rawat to make him 'one' so rawat did for a day. I am sure if we ask the milk one, if he had something to drink or eat in rawats house or anywhere where rawat had access, we would find out that yes he DID eat or drink something. And it was ACID <^>

Subject: Hard prashad From: Disculta To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:36:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I travelled with Sulakshna Bai who told me tales of MJ lacing prashad with stones in India. People got very ill. What a lila! Har har har. I swear this was a big drip for me and I left but 10 years later.

Subject: Chillies in the eyes From: Livia To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:34:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Along similar lines, does anybody remember similar stories from the residence in London (Woodside) when Raja Ji used to rub raw chillies into premies' eyes? Can you believe it, I used to think those people were privileged. Hmmmm. Thinking about it now in light of what's been said about bullying, we were setting ourselves up to be perfect victims for bullying - no wonder the Rawat family couldn't resist. And we called it lila and thought the people it happened to were graced. And I expect there are premies still out there who would feel graced, like "trollo" above, perhaps. Livia

Subject: dope prasad From: John Macgregor To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 19:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: I have one report (written about in the 'Pam' posts) that dope cookies were ubiquitously handed out in the early 1980s at Maharaji's Mehrauli, Delhi, ashram, after a program - Holi I think. According to my informant, 'Everyone was passed out for three days - Westerners, Indians, mahatmas'. I can ask more about this if anyone's keen for more detail. NB: I don't know if the above was done 'without premies' knowlege'. I suspect they knew what they were eating. Tho one 'shri' (Australian argot for 'super-devotee' or 'deeply religious type') did leave Knowledge over the incident. Now to another topic: Did I hallucinate a satsang by Marolyn at one of the Kissimmees wherein she described talking to an Indian premie who told her he'd seen Maharaji manifest in a tree in India? (Whilst he was out watching his sheep, I think.) Marolyn knew M to have been with her in Malibu at the time of the supposed manifestation, and told the premie, 'Maharaji doesn't do things like that.' Later (she said) she told Maharaji about the story. He said: 'Yeah. It happened.' Does anyone else remember that satsang by Marolyn? John

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: Vicki To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 06:25:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember it told by Charanand. Two premies were arguing vehemently and supposedly he came down a tree to intercede. Does anyone remember a program in L.A. where the entire building starting bouncing? Maharaji was supposedly on his way from the residence when he stopped. RajaJi asked what was wrong to which he replied 'I feel like I'm already there.' The whole place was whooping and hollaring like it was holi. Then a punch bowl arrived from the residence with this yellow, milky stuff 'prasad', and it was an instant high. So if he's just an ordinary fellow, what's with prasad, and what's in it? The contradictions are many.

Subject: if it was LA From: janet To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:12:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and the bldg was bouncing, did it ever occur to anyone [DUH] that there was a temblor rolling through the area???????? i swear--so stuuupid! chalk it all up to maharaji and never once glance over to check if an earthquake had passed thru on the sensors!! honest to god, how dumb can you get? I once went to an L A program in some ornate theatre in the wilshire district--probably the wiltern theatre, now that i know the city so much better--this was 1975--for which a bunch of us had cooked down a san pedro cactus and drank it to see if we'd trip, like someone promised we would. sorry to report, seeing maharaji while i was high on psychedelics actually killed off any sense of the divine or grace or lila or anything remotely feeling like the woozy otherworldly state we went to darshan to get. that should have told me right there that he was bogus and it was all self induced. sorta like ' the camera never lies'. in my normal state, i could spin myself into any fantasy i wanted to attain, but with the chemicals in my system, -well, theres no talking to or fooling or proseletyzing to a chemical, is there? it's not human, so it can't be fooled with words and promises. i shoulda taken the sign. but no, i was just disappointed that MJ didnt wow me like he usually did, and i attributed it to my 'impure' state.

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: trollo To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, I remember that satsang...maharaji still does things like that, he is often manifesting himself on this forum !!!!!

Subject: Re: dope prasad From: Gail To: John Macgregor Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:41:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, John. I remember that lie!

Subject: another great story From: Will To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was asleep in the ashram, after nightly satsang and meditation. Somebody came to wake me up, saying Mahatma Ji wanted to give us special satsang. I went down and sat among the other blurry-eyed renunciates. Jagdeo was in the mood to tell stories. Maharaji had manifested himself to Jagdeo one night, wearing a beautiful new blue suit. Maharaji asked Jagdeo is he liked the suit, and of course Jagdeo did. Maharaji astrally flew back home. There were other stories that the great Jagdeo reserved only for us special ashram devotees, but I've forgotten them. One premie woman could also astrally project herself. Once she flew off to visit Maharaji with her silver cord trailing behind her. Maharaji, in the flesh, noticed that he was being visited astrally. He turned and said to her: 'What are you doing here?' He told her to go away.

Subject: Jagdeo From: JMcG To: Will Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 06:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me that I heard stories, too, about Jagdeo in Sydney 'seeing' Maharaji - just about daily, I think - in parks, city streets, etc. Combined with his interest in children, it does make you wonder about his mental state. J

Subject: Lots of updates on the Best of page From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:25:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best of Forums page Believe it or not, there are now 226 links on that page, including the Best of M Dettmers section !!

Subject: One of the best ever-is it here? From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:28:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was recently reading a post from the esteemed 'swami suchabanana', in response to a man who's wife is a 'lifer'.... It is one of the best descriptions and responses I have ever read... I was wondering if someone could bring it up again to the epo forum from the archives..... Also, is it in the 'best of' section....it realy tells us a lot about mr. rawat, and I think would be quite an eye opener to any lurking premies out there... Can anyone bring it up here?....I'm a computer luddite still... Date of post: Friday, May 4, 2001 at 7:16:31 Subject: tough, but true; the process may be hard but FREEing...

Subject: Such's post: From: Crispy To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:29:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for pointing this one out, la-ex. I had never read it before and indeed, what a great post it is (was). Thanks much, Such... Forgive me for re-posting your old wonders, but I also think it deserves a re-visit. Who knows, maybe some other newbie like myself will still benefit.... PS: Such's response is 'Tough, but True......' http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b

Subject: and now for the link: ...! From: Crispy again To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b www.ex-premie3.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010512b

Subject: Best of forum ever ? From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy again Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:56:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's already in the best of page Ending this ... Should we elect it for the Best of Forum Ever section ???

Subject: 'd say yes, here's why... From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:59:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that the post from Sloeburn, with Such's reply, cover a great deal of ground....it crystallizes so much of what went wrong with the m movement, all of the hidden stuff we never knew, all of the ' cheat and deceipt', that so-called 'worldly' stuff that we thought we were getting out of by joining up with m....it is an incredible expose that if read by anyone, would certainly get them thinking twice about their involvement with m, and especially about giving paypal any more money to continue his abusive behavior with.... I think it is a great 'teaser', which would certainly encoruage any reader o go further and read more posts... I would vote for a 'best ever' category.....I would put Sloeburn, plus Such's reply only.... Stuff like this is what makes the epo site so potent, and really affects m's attempts to troll for converts...

Subject: Re: Best of forum ever ? From: Crispy To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 08:20:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bonjour, Jean-Michel. That's great that it's already in the Best Of page. As you can see, I still have much of the archives and Best Of's to catch up on, so I couldn't really pick it out yet as one of the 'limited select' or Best Of Ever. But this post certainly covers almost all of the crucial aspects so clearly - an exemplary summation.

Subject: More votes ? (nt) From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:04:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll think about it .....

Subject: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has anyone read some of the ONN interviews over on LG? What continues to amaze me is how premies reach for superlatives t describe the k experience, and the more they do, the sillier it gets. For awhile, they all wanted to be poets, a la maharaji. Now its the superlatives, like 'subtle ad spectacular' at the same time....or peace can be 'rockin and rollin'...Joan A. calls it 'elegant'...another premie calle it 'exquisite'.... Isn't this all rather silly?....why not just say that once in awhile after hours of practicing ordinary techniques of meditation, your mind slows down bit, nd you feel a little bit different..a bit more peaceful?..... I think they come up with the superlatives to still convince themselves that it really is the 'knowldge of all knowledges' and that maharaji is 'you know who, giving you know what'.... Problem with this strategy is that while it keeps THEM beieving their own hype and away from confronting questions, it only looks stupid to potential new recruits, and quite disappointing to them if any one of them does get sucked in and tries the techniques... Isn't it interesting how the 'k experience' has gone from: 1)1970's-4 divine experiences within, with literal experiences of light brighter than a thousand suns, celestial harmonies,the cosmic primordal vibration, and an LSD-like mysterious nectar that was powerfully intoxicating.... 2)1980's-the zen like 'nothing experience',where maharaji would pride himself on getting people to realize that there was nothing inside, but peace....the 'nothingness' was it.. 3)1990'-poetic descriptions....a nice way to go when you realize apart from a few high experiences at festivals, most premies don't experience anything in meditation except for a little slowing of the mind....why not do poetry, no one can argue with it,and hey, it's YOUR own experience, right?...maybe m really is having an exerience like that, I guess I better keep on trying harder... 4)2000-Superlatives for the experience..kind of like poetry.... Isn't it interesting that no one EVER specifically says WHAT it is that they are experiencing, except that it's impossible to describe it?

Subject: Describing 'the experience' From: Inside Edition To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:19:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: la-ex, Apparently it is impossible to describe THE ULTIMATE FUCK-OVER while you are still in the middle of it. Once you get out of it, it's easy to describe, as we've certainly seen here. IE

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:57:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just waiting for a premie friend of mine to ex so that I can get her to admit that she was making it up when she said she saw Maharaji's face in meditation in her Knowledge session. Somehow I always felt she was bullshitting although I suppose you can't be sure. After all I once saw Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck in a mandala, clear as day, so I suppose anything's possible. It was 1975 at the time, so I guess that would tie in with your timescale thing above.. Did anybody here see ever Maharaji's face in meditation, out of interest? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Livia, Many devotees of many 'gurus' have reported the same thing,ie they have seen the face of their master 'inside'. I am pretty sure that David Lane talks about this in his own research on all the Rahdasoami gurus. That's one of the things that used to really wind me up when I was propagating k. I used to meet with these devotees of false masters(ie anyone who wasn't m), who often came out with more cosmic stories than m. If you can get a devotee of saibaba to open up, they will tell you much more incredible stories than seeing sb inside. Charanand used to tell us that the highest vision a devotee could have is one of the holy golden lotus feet. I wonder if he is still peddling the same stuff or if new pwks are given this image. Cheers jethro

Subject: Seeing MJ's face From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:40:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I travelled with Mahatma Umesh Dhar around Spain in the seventies. He had a whole obsession with Jesus, and also said he had been seeing light with eyes open ever since a dramatic experience in which MJ appeared floating in light in his room during meditation. He taught that the 'real' meditation was to sit, eyes open, staring at a photo of MJ until he manifested. I did it for hours and hours, and it definitely put me in some wild places, but they were hypnotically induced by staring. And I didn't see his face inside. I heard reports at the time when Jagdeo was giving K that he told everyone they must see MJ's face in the light, then asked how many did, and it was a fair percentage. Hmmmm...

Subject: Mick Jagger's Faceof the barrel?-ONN From: Tim G To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 15:15:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but there was a very earnest, serious, suited premie in Dublin who was jealous of all the reported sitings of m in meditation. After many arduous hours under the blanket the light formed and guess who materialised in it's midst? Mick Jagger.

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:06:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv thn premies greatest desire was to see M's face 'in the light', but the likelyhood of a self-created experience would sort of make a claim, well shakey. now if someone had k, saw M in the light but didn't know who it was 'cos they'd never seen a picture or had darshan, ( and I've heard of this stuff happening with gurus) then THAT I'd like to have explained by you keen metaphysicians out there in cyber-bliss!

Subject: Explanation From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't have an explanation, but such things definitely happened. I was in South America, touring around in 1975, and sometimes we would go to a new village and some person would show up who had had a vision of MJ prior to knowing he existed. Then he saw a flier or something and came to the ashram and recognized it. This happened more than once. Also, I have a friend who actually reads here and is an ex-instructor (and ex-premie) who had such an experience prior to Knowledge. His explanation is that cosmic things do happen, but that you still don't necessarily need to give your power away to them. They're not always the ultimate truth guiding your life. Love, a Keen Metaphysician

Subject: Baby's face archetype From: Jean-Michel To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:18:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I also have a theory. Rawat's face shape is very much baby-like of a certain type - round and symetrical, like the one they've used to advertise soap for decades, and other instances. I'm sure some people are facinated by that archetype. Believe it or not, there is a 'divine' baby-child master in east Africa some place, who has almost the same face as Rawat's. I don't recall his name, I've seen his picture on videos' covers somewhere in a shop.

Subject: Re: Baby's face archetype From: Lesley To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's something in that. I saw the results of a study done on what made a face beautiful and symmetry was most important and for beautiful as opposed to handsome, wide cheekbones and rounded face.

Subject: Re: Scraping the bottom of the barrel?-ONN From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:41:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, but my neighbor upon seeing Maharaji for the first time in Long Beach, before receiving Knowledge, flipped because she had seen a vision as a child. She never knew what it was until seeing M onstage. It was one and the same. She's left anyway. After last year's Amaroo, she said he was too dark and something wasn't right.

Subject: Sort of like an Adult Santa? From: Gail To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 12:56:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Upon seeing Maharaji for the first time in Long Beach, before receiving Knowledge, my neighbour flipped because she had seen a vision as a child. She never knew what it was until seeing M onstage. It was one and the same. It probably triggered a feeling she had as a child and she transposed that feeling to the Lard. It might be likened to wanting Santa back after you know there's no such thing! Did anyone here have a Deja vu on the night our Lard danced late and our body heat vanquished the fog overhead [all night long hustle with our drunken Lard]? That could be attributed to heat stroke, lack of protein, or an interesting group-think phenomena. Who knows? It was a blast at the time, dancing with Krishna and all????????

Subject: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: la-ex To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If that is true, that your neighbor had a vision in childhood, and lo and behold, it later tuned out to be true, when she saw m, that it was one and the same person.... I think it has nothing to do wih m, but everything to do with HER... If the vision was correct, it simply was a preview for her of something she would be getting into later on in her life....the 'vision' had nothing to do with m 'giving' it to her, simply that it foreshadowed something that would happen to her....premies love to attribute these things to m, but isn't it really something that just happend to them? I have had lots of thse premonitions...many came true, but what I have learned is that just becaue I had the 'vision', it doesn't mean that it was all good....I used to think that because I had the vision, it had to be from some divine sorce, and was foretelling some wonderful exerience...experience caused me to temper that belief with the understanding that-1)the visions come to me, not from anyone else...2)the future experiences that they refer to are not always good or positive experiences-sometimes they are terrible experiences....the vision didn't put a judgement on the experience, I did...

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Vicki To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:10:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was definitely a vision, right down to the color of his tie, suit and stage. I don't know that she attributes it to M giving it to her, she just had it. What amazed me is she saw through it on her own, not like me who needed EPO. I always excused weirdness as not coming from him, but the premies. Should have known better.

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Crispy To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 12:35:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re dreams as premonitions: Vicki and la-ex - interesting story and take. I find the whole subject interesting. Can't say I ever saw his (or anyone's) face in the light, but a few times (out of wanting) I would try to pick out his visage in some of the patterns of light. And some came pretty close, too. But my take is this was another form of ‘projection' or ‘reading' something that's going on in myself, like a conscious or subconscious desire, into something else unrelated. Have you ever noticed sometimes all of a sudden thinking you're seeing someone's face everywhere, or you frequently pick up on a similarity, or you see and hear the name everywhere. Is it that a cosmic message is trying to be sent to you, or is it just that because that person, or issue, is/has been currently prominent in your thoughts and emotions, that that's what you start to notice around you more than you normally would. It's not that the reminders weren't there before, but it's your Projection picking up on them more than usual (?) Another friend who majored in psych in university studied dream analysis. (All my friends seem to be psychs; another one did a thesis on cults!(*). (Excuse the Blow Hard Via Friend!). He said often the subject of our dreams are projections of something going on inside us. Similarly, how we look at others is often colored by our own emotions, hopes and expectations. Again, I never saw m's face in the light, but I often had darshan dreams. I'm leading into one in particular that I had at a time when I was starting to question the credibility of things like ‘grace', and ‘special personal messages'. In one of my favorite dreams, I was back in my home town, going into the empty church hall to practise the organ. Mj was there already, sitting up at the /organ in his dodhi whites, playing Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring so sweetly. Every phrase of it was filling me up with emotion. I awoke remembering all the details and feeling as if it were vivid and real. That same morning ascending the elevator to my office, Jesu Joy was playing over the Muzak system!! My tendency normally is to brush this off as meaning nothing. But I couldn't help but recall the emotion I felt in the dream, and tears welled. Even though to me it felt real, a real emotion, I think it was another example of the power of projection, and how people all too often mistake it as meaning something special by reading their desires into it. Telling this reminds me of a very different reaction I had upon actually seeing Mj play the keyboards at Amaroo last year. This time in reality, my reaction was not beautiful emotions. His very stagey presentation of his ordinary-talented, one-man concert only exposed his ''look-at-me-what-I-can-do'' colors, which soured the whole picture. The person in front of me was swaying in ecstacy, but I could not relate any more. I'd outgrown it. (And it's not jealousy speaking here, believe me.) Any more thoughts on this? Any more takes on projections, dreams, visions, etc? (*) PS: Re the person who had written a thesis on cults - her advice to me was to take the good I've learned from the cult and move on.

Subject: Re: hre' my take on that 'vision' thing From: Livia To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 16:35:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something that springs to mind is the mass visions of those Catholics, when they all 'saw' the Virgin Mary's face manifest to them somewhere - I forget where, sorry to be so vague! It was either in Portugal or in Spain or it could even have been in South America, I really can't remember where. Anyway, it was a very well-documented occurence and those people were positive they saw the Virgin Mary's face appear to them. And what about all the 'occurences' of holes appearing in peoples' hands and blood flowing from them? People would swear that these things actually happened, just as premies would, and do. It must have an awful lot to do with intense focus and desire, although the neurological explanations are unclear. The point is, though, that they are no way peculiar to premies, thereby negating any proof of anything as far as premies are concerned. Love, Livia

Subject: Coincidence From: PatD To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Happens all the time, but there is no meaning to it.(or at least none which is accessible) Just last week I was reading a book when my 7yr old daughter burst in through the door from school. She was singing dooby doo dah ,dooby doo dah,at the exact moment that I was reading this line : 'the hills of the northern edge supply three underground rivers in the area known as Dobe-/Du/da after the names of two permanent waterholes'. For sure there's more to heaven & earth & all that, but Rawat remains forever a low life regardless of the signs & portents. Up against the wall motherfucker.(Rawat,not you)

Subject: Could be..... (OT a bit) From: Crispy To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 08:11:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could be these phenomena happen a lot. Hi Livia, I also vaguely remember hearing about that somewhere. The first flash questions I had 'Were they all Catholics?' 'How come we never hear about the Virgin Mary appearing to Buddhists monks (for example)?' The Virgin Mary would also know that her son, Christ, hated established religions and never intended to start another, namely Christianity. So why would she be partial to showing herself to Catholics? Which is why, again, I tend to lean to the explanation of 'projection of one's desires'. Could that have been an example of mass projection? And hey there PatD. Also my brother and I would be amazingly 'in tune' to each other's thoughts when we were younger (not so much now). We'd often have the same concurrent reactions/thoughts and could often guess each other's next game moves. We tested ourselves once with a 3rd person who asked us to think of a color, tell it to only him, and we'd nail the same color most of the time. I thought maybe we might have the same genetic map in our brains?! And yes, of course these phenomena are not exclusive to premies. But there's a bit of the doubting Thomas in me. I mostly take such unexplainable visions or messages with a few grains of salt - 'Hm, interesting, maybe, but wait and see what time reveals'. On the other hand, intuition is something else though that I do think is underrated. I don't mean to go off on an OT sideline subject here that I know squat about, but to bring it back, something has to be said for wariness of projecting one's hopes onto someone/something else, especially onto such a powerful, charismatic character as Maharaji! In a sense, our projection onto him has actually fed that power, and very mistakenly so, as we've seen how he has taken that power and corrupted it on such an immense scale. And Lesley, if Mj's face ever appears to you now, just stick up your middle finger at it and keep on walking! :) This reminds me of a Woody Allen short (Oedipus Wrecks, from New York Stories), where his mother's face is permanently fixed in the sky above Manhattan, yakking away verbal abuses to Woody. Cheers to y'all, Crispy

Subject: I once saw his face in the clouds From: Lesley To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 15:17:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How interesting, it makes me wonder if emotional cognition isn't a bit of a two way street of time and feeling, particularly if the emotion being triggered is from a time of infancy. Maybe deja vu comes from this happening at a closer remove, and visions at a further remove, timewise. From what I understand the workings of our memories is quite complex, and it is occurring to me that your friend's memory of her vision is a potent feeling from the past being triggered and producing a memory with visual details that are coming from the present, like the way a computer will complete the image with the best it can come up with if you try and make it print at 300 pixels an inch when it only has 72 pixels per inch of information in store. When Rawat gets up on stage and presents himself as our father, and the audience believes him, the lie that is happening presents our cognitive abilities with a conundrum we do attempt to resolve. Wotcha reckon?

Subject: Even once is too much [nt] From: bill To: Lesley Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:40:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yes, I agree From: Lesley To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:50:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had attended a satsang a year previously in Brighton, 1972, where I was reliably informed that Guru Maharaji's Knowledge was the pearl within the oyster of this world. I had been given a leaflet in the street, and my guess is I might have seen that poster that was around in 1973, with blue sky and clouds and a rainbow, my vision bore a striking resemblance to it. Oh yes, and I was coming down from an acid trip..........anyway it wasn't too much later that I was sitting at the feet of Mahatma Adharanand poking my fingers in my face.

Subject: Lesley, your post has a life of its own. From: Richard To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 18:49:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your subject "I once saw his face in..." appears to have cloned itself. I tried to post after yours but that phrase appears in multiple after my post. Weird.

Subject: Lesley, your post has a life of its own. From: Richard - 2nd try To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 19:02:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Couldn't edit my above post) Your subject 'I once saw his face in...' appears to have cloned itself. I tried to post after yours but that phrase appears in multiple at the end of the thread. Weird.

Subject: weird is right From: Lesley To: Richard - 2nd try Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:33:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I opened my post just now and it seems normal, huh?

Subject: Re: weird is right From: PatC To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 01:17:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now, look what you've done, Lesley. I take one day off and you've made the forum all trippy. :P

Subject: Hey, wow, cosmic!!!! [nt] From: Livia To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:10:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, it's gone. [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 16:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thank the invisible elves From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 17:43:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got rid of it because it took up so much space.

Subject: To John in Pasadena From: Will To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:21:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please email me at willwilliams38@hotmail.com Thanks.

Subject: The more I see of premies... From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 05:43:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..(and I am perfectly aware that they are not to be called premies anymore), the more I realise what the main event is. It is the Clark Kent syndrome. Beneath my ordinary exterior, I am the possesser of the secret insight. I carry the real thing. Others believe, but I know. And the root of my wisdom is my recognition and acknowledgement of the subtle and secret guidance of....The One.(Him) So I am a channel to the others, to ...The One, to themselves. I am special.I must be responsible and true. Holy Shit! The above is totally discernable, and based on recent observation (admittedly only of males). Oh premies premies, give it a rest will ya! Also: When talking to a prem who has just heard of your treason,heresy and dereliction of duty, you only have a one sentence window of opportunity in which to put the case for your defence. After that the nodding and pitying 'uh-huh-ing' cuts in. It has to be a short sentence too. The one liner I have evolved goes : 'Yes well Maharaji turned out to be a myth.' Its neutral, over before it's started, off-balancing, monosyllabic and effective. I recommend it. Love to all Bryn

Subject: Superfeet From: Scott T. To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 12:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reminds me of the 'Superfeet motto: 'Hidden Power!' I got a nice hat from them once.

Subject: Yeah, thats it.'hidden power'nt From: Bryn To: Scott T. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:52:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The more I see of premies... From: Loaf To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:18:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hello BD My line is 'if maharaji knocked on my door right now, I would call the police' Its such a massive tabloid shift that they laugh... and say 'Really ???' I suppose it gets their attention.

Subject: Really? From: Disculta To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:56:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, I think it's a great line, and I wish I had someone to use it on, but would you really, Loaf?

Subject: Re: Really? From: Loaf To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:15:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: almost definitely not. It all depends on how cute he looked. IF he looked like a large aggressive speckled toad I would probably be more hostile towards him than if he turned up all humble and said 'I want to be completely open with the world, and to expose my innermost psychology and vulnerabilities - would you make a documentary programme about the entire process and film my psychotherapy sessions.. here is a million dollar budget but you have entire editorial control... and here is the remainder of my estate (retaining a modest sum for personal income) for the establishing of a trust fund for people who have been damaged in cults or directly through my behaviour' I think then I would put the kettle on and make him a cup of tea.

Subject: Ahhh From: Disculta To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 21:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for clearing that up, Loafji. He'd probably prefer cognac to tea. Take care mate.

Subject: The only site for both premies & exes From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:05:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's some new posts there which may interest you. (Click on the above link) The Great Worldwide Linkup www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8154/

Subject: Re: The only site for both premies & exes From: King David To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:31:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's fabulous SD. A lovely practical and friendly operation. One thing that struck me as particularly wonderful was that 90% of the posts were from beautiful premies looking for old and cherished friends or those trying to get back in touch with the, well, whatever it is that we guys do at gatherings. I was tempted to immediately write to all the 'premies please contact me' posters but then realised that if they REALLY want to get back in touch - then the grace will automatically facilitate that eventuality, as it did with all of us in those wonderful old halcyon days of yore. :)

Subject: Re: Pams as friends From: Jethro to LOAF et al To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:31:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf says about Peter Lee in a thread below “He never has asked how I am since. None of the Premies who were aware that I was having a bad time have EVER asked how I am doing. “ Pams’ and wanna-be-a-pam-again types lives are a breed of their own. I didn’t know Peter Lee. I only met him once when he came to stay at my ashram(Stockwell, Sth London). He was off on some mission for m with another premie. I did give them a block of Toblerone as a gift for their journey which was accepted…..but they did not utter any words such as ‘thank you’, because they knew(like I did) that the chocolate was really from m. Does anyone remember when Bob Heywood crashed a vehicle he was driving in the way to a festival? Bob ended up in hospital for several months and had serious head(brain?) surgery. I think he was unconscious for several months and was certainly near death. Anyway, Ron Geaves was in that vehicle (he was unhurt) and when I asked him what he did after the crash, he said that he brushed himself down and went onto the airport to go see M. No mention or concern for the others. In fact, he gave me the impression that he didn’t even make a phone call to an ambulance. He didn’t even mention Bob. (A bit like the story of m breaking Gary Gerrard's nose) When Bob spoke to me about the accident and the months following, he told me that he spent all t he time with M(internally) and that he loved his relgion with his satguru. I think this disease is called Narcisssim. Jethro

Subject: Ron Geaves Cruelty From: Loaf To: Jethro to LOAF et al Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ron's heartlessness was learned by example. He told me a story of when he was at the residence with M in Rome in the mid 70s. There was a 'long standing joke' with M about Ron's inability to drive. One day Marolyns parents and other people were coming to the res and a huge picnic had been prepared and put on a golf buggy to be driven down to the beach nearby. Ron thought it would make M laugh if HE arrived driving the buggy... so he started to drive it... and tipped it over into a ditch. M apparantly rushed up and asked Ron (who was feeling VERY guilty) 'Are you OK ?' Ron's heart burst with gratitude that M would be concerned about Him and not the food 'Yes Mahraji, thankyou' M replied : 'Pity, I wish you'd broken your fucking neck!' and marched off. (A good answer I think !) BUT the cruelty came over the following weeks when Ron found himself shunned by the PAMs and fallen out of favour. Nobody would speak to him any more. He said it hurt, but showed what Premie friends were all about. Cruelty it seems and self interest are learned by the company we keep.

Subject: Fits well with my abuse theory From: Jean-Michel To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 02:45:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deception being at the core of it, to be able to 'climb' the ladder of Rawatism's hierarchy, you need to have a wide tolerance to abuse, as a potential victim, or as an abuser. There may be some exceptions - some people Rawat maybe respects - for intellectual, financial reasons or possible blackmail. Maybe he's a bit more cautious with them, out of interest.

Subject: Re the abuse thing From: Disculta To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:32:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know the details of the social science experiment where people were easily made to give other people painful electric shocks. As I remember it, there were a group of students who were on one side of the glass, operating some kind of electric shock system, perhaps in answer to right or wrong answers from the people on the other side of the glass. The experimenters instructed the subjects to shock the people on the other side, which they did. Actually, they didn't - the ones on the other side were in on it, and they acted as though they were in agony. The real experiment was to see if the people giving the shock would override their own natural response to people in pain when told to do so by an authority. This experiment, which I may have gotten a bit wrong, is often cited as an explanation about the concentration camps and a proof of the incredible power of authoritarianism. I am amazed at the abuses I suffered and perpetrated when I was a premie, especially in the ashram. Once, when I was in the ashram in Spain, and I was the coordinator, there was someone who wanted to join. I told her she couldn't wear make-up (it was in the manual). She was really pissed off and went back to the Yogananda scene she had been in before. I remember her ranting about our obsession with a little thing like lipstick, and thinking 'it's her that's obsessed.' Har har. You should see the glossy lips on me now! love to all

Subject: That experiment From: Joy To: Disculta Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 00:40:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Katie! The experiment you're referring to was done in 1963 by Stanley Milgram, and is a very famous one, along with the Stanford Prison Experiment, in which volunteer men were locked up (chosen for their peaceful political views!) and some got to play prisoner and others the guards; in this one the guards ended up exhibiting extreme cruelty. I've seen actual video footage of the Milgram experiment and it is very chilling — a man administers what appears to be a fatal dose of electricity to someone just because he is told by the experimenter to do so. You watch him wrestle with his conscience and then go ahead and do it. Goes to show how easily the human mind is controlled and manipulated. (I learned all this from my Open Univ. psychology course!) Gee, borderline sounds like me! When I was a young child and would get fed up with my mother nagging me, I would say to her (in all seriousness): 'You go away . . . . . me come wiff you!' In other words, get lost, but not just yet. I also think it was my desire to participate in any adventure that may be on the go, and the prospect of her going off somewhere interesting was too good to pass up without wanting some of the fun. Hope you're well, glad to see you're on F7 in the middle of the night. Did you see any of the Queen's jubilee celebrations on TV? Quite something. Lotsa luv, Joy

Subject: Re: Fits well with my abuse theory From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:27:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The name Joan Apter springs to mind. I've heard that she somehow manages to have quite a tempestuous relationship with him, in that she speaks her mind (up to a point) and argues with him on certain issues, and he apparently respects her for this. Or so I've heard. It ties up with the idea of him being basically a bully. Bullies only respect people who stand up to them - no one else, and I mean no one. Having read a lot of stuff about narcissism over the last day or so I'm coming to the conclusion that M could indeed be an extreme narcissist. One of the sites I posted a link to down below (the 2nd one) comes out with an interesting theory that people become narcissists as a result of having never really been listened to or recognised as an individual in childhood. They then spend their whole lives looking for this recogntion. Now in Maharaji's case obviously it's a whole other ballgame as he was brought up in an extraordinary situation with a father who probably had very little time for him in a practical sense apart from anything else, plus a lot of other people around projecting all this stuff onto him, including own his mother and all his brothers! What happened to the real Prem Pal the child in all of this, one can't help wondering. I mean, what sort of childhood was that! Well, obviously not deprived in a material sense, but did he ever get the individuation we all need? Undoubtedly not. A bit like being brought up as a prince and then being thrust into kinghood part-time at the age of 8 and fulltime at the age of 13. No wonder a part of him has never really grown up. No wonder he's a bully. No wonder he drinks. No wonder any of it, really, when you think about it. And us? Well they say narcissists are drawn to narcissists and while I wouldn't dream of speaking for all of us here, as there are probably as many reasons for being drawn to M and k as there are premies - there are probably a few narcissists amongst the premies too. People afraid of genuine intimacy - hence the scores of dysfunctional relationships and disproportionate numbers of broken marriages. People with a need to feel superior - 'I have the Knowledge and you don't!' People with a desperate need to be loved, hence the extraordinary almost masochistic suffering of some of the PAMs - I could go on and on. Love Livia

Subject: Narcissists From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:40:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, You said 'they say narcissists are drawn to narcissists.' The way I've heard it, a more common ghastly enmeshment is that borderlines are drawn to narcissists. There's a whole book about it which I haven't read. There were (are?) definitely quite a few people who would be classifed as 'borderline' or at least 'borderline borderline' ;–) especially among the very devoted. There was an article in Psychology Today last year suggesting that everyone has a small dose of the various categories of mental illness defined by the D.S.M.V. or whatever it's called (basically the Psychiatrists' Desk Reference). I think it's pretty interesting to read and check out what all your friends are (heh heh). I found I was in most categories, actually , in homeopathic doses, so to speak. Anyway, borderline is a VERY interesting category. One way of sound-byting it is that a borderline is a person who says or acts like 'I hate you, don't leave me!' Ever felt that way towards MJ? love to all

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Livia To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:50:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Disculta, all very interesting. Apparently there are about 10 main 'personality disorders' - all listed in a big fat book whose name I forget - 'twould be an interesting read for sure! The theory goes that we all have bits of most or all of them to some degree, it's when one (or two or more!) predominate to an extreme degreee that you're in trouble and may need therapy or whtever to try and sort it out if you want to function without messing your life up. Are you saying, then, that 'borderline narcissists' can get worse if they attach themselves to a narcissist? Arrgh!! By the way, do you live in England? If so it would be nice to meet/talk. I always find what you have to say on psychological stuff very interesting! Please email me if you have time: liviadowte@hotmail.com Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 05:06:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, No I don't live in England, although I was born there. I'm in California, up with insomnia in the middle of the night, at the same time you are posting, doing my occasional 4 am forum visit. There's a category called Borderline Personality Disorder that is almost the opposite of Narcissistic P.D. These two opposites sometimes attract each other in relationship. I've had borderline clients and friends, without knowing about the categorization, and it helped a lot to learn about it, even though I used to be strongly against all categories. One of the things a therapist friend told me about 'borderlines' is that they are the ones whose THERAPISTS commit suicide (rather than being suicide risks themselves). It's a sort of joke, but only sort of. I've experienced certain borderline people as having a refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions or feelings, and a high level of skill at manipulating others to take care of them. If you say no to a borderline, they may freak out and attack and blame you. If you say yes, they can make you feel useless. I can imagine how the dependence pattern might interface in some cases with a narcissist who says he's God and the only one who can really take care of you. If I come to the UK this year I will post something on F7 and see if I can get together with you and others. love ktd

Subject: Re: Personality Disorders From: Vicki To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:34:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This brings up some very interesting questions. Let's speculate for an instant that Maharaji being the youngest son, was babied but not particularly taken interest in, what with all Shri Hans travels and Mata's other interests. So there he is, this little tyke, with not an average IQ, and he sees who gets the attention. Children are very savy about who gets attention. He wasn't the designated one. The oldest brother in the Indian culture is the big cheese. So the passing of Shri Hans happens and there is chaos. Little Sant Ji sees an opportunity for the ultimate attention. He says he heard 'voices', there was supposedly a letter from Shri Hans that is any one's guess if it really existed. And then the rest is history. He's 'divine' until the split. How can one be the Lord and then not?[

Subject: Excuse me Neville. From: Beragon Ki Jai To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:59:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you the chap that I spoke to at the recent program at Amaroo.I came up to you on the last night of the event and said hello to you.I told you that i had been an ex premie,then a premie again,then an ex again and now I had returned to the fold again.I am obviously quite fickle. Cheers Beragon KI Jai.

Subject: The ex with a sign out front? From: Tonette To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are you talking about the Neville who was protesting M's last event by holding a sign right outside the gate of Amaroo? The sign said something to the effect Maharaji had boken his heart. Is that the Neville you mean? Because I think there are several Neville's here. Let me know. Ta for now, Tonette

Subject: Re: Excuse me Neville. From: Gail To: Beragon Ki Jai Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 20:44:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow! Many cult members join another cult to fill the void. You are a rare bird! Good luck to you!

Subject: Re: Excuse me Neville. From: Barogon Ki Jai To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 22:19:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Gail.

Subject: Deception causes pain From: oldRichard To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 07:06:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to post here some years ago at the outset of my 'coming out' as Richard but I am happy to settle for oldRichard. I am moved to post again by the poignancy of Bai Ji's recent communications. I too, more than anything, wanted to serve my 'Lord' and to have the privelige of being with the Master. You can say what you like but that was what I signed-up for and I gave my all for nearly 20 years. Never, in all that time, was I disabused of the notion that my devotion was misplaced. Never, in all that time, was it ever suggested that I was psycho or had missed the point. NOW, however, it seems that I was wrong. In conversation with premies, it turns out that it was me who got it so badly wrong in thinking that M was anything other than a motivational speaker. When I suggested that I actually signed up for 'devotion to the living incarnation of God, there was a faintly embarrassed silence. This denial of events is, I suggest, the source of much pain. Bai Ji, I received knowledge from you in North London in 1971/2 and, despite everything, the day remains engraved on my mind. Your gentleness, kindness and devotion inspired me more than anything. The fact that we were both conned hurts me still and I will have to live with that. But what hurts me more is that old friends who went through the same time with me now want to re-write history and say that it was never so. Thanks for everything Bai Ji and especially for reminding me of my aspirations. Love oldRichard

Subject: Re: Deception causes pain From: Bai Ji To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:30:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank You Dear old Richard for your kind words. I am not the Bai Ji you received the Knowledge of all Knowledges from. Or the Bai Ji that lives with and cooks for M. I was always a Bai Ji in my own heart and hence my Forum nom de plume. Non of this detracts from the feelings of betrayal that I feel. Where is He now in my deepezt darkest hour? Take Care OR XXX

Subject: Name Confusion #42 - Bai Ji From: JHB To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:21:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, Welcome back. I haven't spoken to premies for a long time apart from on forums, so I am genuinely surprised that they deny the devotional days. I wonder if they are just trying to say what they believe they are supposed to say? BTW, I don't think Bai Ji was ever someone who taught the techniques of knowledge. I think it's just her pseudonym here. John.

Subject: He's thinking of Prakash Bai maybe..... From: PatD To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:47:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......a much older than average mahatma.I never knew then that her dressing all in white meant that she was a widow. Looking back she certainly seemed to have 'it' in a less dangerous form than the others. What I mean is,the milk of human kindness was there. Probably dead now.

Subject: Prakash Bai Ji From: Sir Dave To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prakash Bai Ji (who gave me knowledge) left Maharaji, I think in the seventies and as far as I know, returned to India guruless. Since I was only nineteen when she gave me knowledge, she may have been younger than I thought then, maybe just in her thirties or early forties. She could still be alive now, somewhere in India. Since I received knowledge from a Mahatma who left Maha, maybe I never really officially received it. She did say at the time that the techniques were all to be found in books.

Subject: Re: Ashokanand Ji From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear, maybe I never received it either! Ashokanand showed us excerpts from Zen Flesh Zen Bones describing the techniques, as part and parcel of the Knowledge session. He then went off with Bal Bhagwan Ji two or three years later and then tried to convert us away from Maharaji! Hey maybe none of us exes here ever really received Knowledge! How many of us received it from a mahatama who then went manmat? Love Livia

Subject: Hmmmmm... From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 14:12:25 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I think you may be on to something here Livia. I 'got' knowledge (self-knowledge?), from the worst of the lot, Jagdeo! Yuck! I don't remember much about it. As I've mentioned before, it was probably lucky for me that I am a boy, since Jagdeo doesn't seem to like raping little boys, just little girls.

Subject: Or what about Fakiranand - any takers? [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:34:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I was nailed by Fakiranand From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:42:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pun quite intended. After all, Fakiranand certainly hammered satsang home. I kind of admired Fakiranand for his intensity - up to a point. After all, it was passion and intensity that I was after. No light-weight namby pamby Jesus on the cross religion for me. No way. Squeeze my eyeballs, Mahatma Ji oh great soul, and show me the light brighter than a thousand suns and I'll be willing to cut my head off if that's what GMJ asked of me. Fair exchange for the K of all K's. Really a shame his master didn't cool F's jets a bit and tone down the zealotry. It's a tragedy that he thought he was doing what his lord would have wanted when he tried to murder Pat Halley (or far worse, just following GMJ's or RJ's agya). Silly mahatma ji for taking all of GMJ's hyperbolic rhetoric literally. No wonder M wants to conveniently ignore his flamboyant past if it includes such colorful characters of his own creation like the Beggar of Bliss.

Subject: Me - Mohani Bai,she walked too [nt] From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:19:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Prakash Bai Ji From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:00:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prakash Bai is the mother of 3 premies: Sunanda, Jumna and Sushiel. Some time in the late 70's she was re-married to a younger premie named Curt and they were living in Miami. I may be inaccurate on the details but Joy or others may know for sure. Wonderful to think she may have found a life beyond M.

Subject: Re: Deception causes pain From: Richard To: oldRichard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:13:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good to see you again oldRichard. I suppose you could also be considered Richard the First! I was Postie for awhile and finally came out of the fog as Richard a year ago March. There was another Richard posting for awhile who is a premie. He chose R2 as his nom de forum after my understandable objection. Funny how we got it wrong all that time, eh? What the hell were we thinking when we imagined GMJ wanted to be worshiped as the Ultimundo God in a Bod? I guess it was all those magic mushrooms and/or reading Be Here Now that made us soooo confused. :) I hear strength in your words and a nod to the beauty and intensity we brought to the party 30 years ago. Overcoming the deception and pain allows us to see that our passions are still alive and it's great to share them. On we go, Richard - who was Postie and now I'm glad to have a brother named Richard

Subject: We've all been abused by the maha From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 05:09:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 6 months ago I’ve got news from a French fence-sitter that was reading EPO like mad. I remember him quite well, as he was a part of my worst memories of the old DLM time. He had been seriously abused by me – I’m going to tell you how – and he was still very much resenting what happened. I was quite glad to get news from him (even though I was quite embarrassed because of my role in what happened to him), we talked about various issues, and we had a long exchange on what happened on that day where I threw him out of the ashram, acting on behalf of the French NC of that time, namely Charles S. I didn’t throw him out physically, but verbally signified him that he had to leave on the spot, and I guess I used very strong words to make him understand he had no option. The poor guy had no place to go, he was probably broke. You can imagine his situation. And I remember my feeling that day : I was doing this against my feelings, feeling very bad about it, finding all the excuses - I was on some ‘divine mission’, doing this for M etc. I wasn’t myself in the ashram anymore at that time (some time around 1982-1983), but I was involved as an assistant of the NC, helping for various tasks. I guess the poor guy wasn’t wanted anymore in the ashram for some reason I don’t know, and the NC didn’t have the guts to do the job himself. And honestly that was my worst memory of that time. Like one bad thing you did once in your life, and feeling bad about it all your life every time you think about it. I thought the issue was over now, and didn’t think much about it since. But I got news from him recently, through a common friend, and started thinking again about that event that happened about 20 years ago. How come that I got to do something I hated AGAINST my own feelings, and then felt good about it, with some guilt feelings, and considering I did something bad on that day – with the excuse I did it ‘for M’, that was ‘service’ etc ? And finally it downed on my : I’ve been abused. I did something against my feelings, with NO (human) consciousness at all …. How come I did this ? ? ? ? ? How is it possible, that in the name of ‘service’ for the highest cause, you get to abuse someone else against your own feelings (I don’t doubt there are some people doing that kind of thing and have pleasure doing it – this was NOT and is NOT my case) ? Now this is something what took me a long time to understand. We do have a consciousness, we do have an ethic, we do have values, there are things we like and things we don’t like, things we want to accomplish in our lives etc. And what happens when you get the supreme k – the k of all knowledges – even before as a matter of fact, you get programmed in that mode whilst you’re an aspirant – or you never get the ‘knowledge’ ? You learn that consciousness is the feeling you get through the experience of meditation – satchitanand , bliss or whatever you call it, that you have to let your feelings aside to be able to ‘serve’ your master, that you have to empty your bucket in order to get the experience you’re running after, and you finally enjoy being a brainless ‘servant’, ‘student’ or a synchronized team member of the so-called ‘master’. You REPLACE your human consciousness with nothingness. Serving the ‘master’ becomes your criteria, in order to ‘experience’ that so-called ‘knowledge’. And this is when you become an abuser in a system where everybody is abusing everybody. There are all sorts of abuses you’re a part of. The most innocent ones, and the worst ones. This is the name of the game. The most innocent ones : giving or getting money for M’s (or EV’s) needs – whatever they may be – when you know they really don’t need it. Organizing the beautiful video or special events where nothing is going to happen, where other abusers are going to read their scripts and so on. You know it, you don’t like it, but you still do it in spite of your feelings. When you listen to people and the master talking about things they don’t know, and you hate listening to such stupid things. When you’re persuaded to do things you don’t like, and still do it in the name of ‘service’. This IS abuse, you’re abusing people at every level, and you’re being abused at every level. I guess you can list lots of other abuse situations you’ve been involved in. Countless I guess. The worst ones : forcing premies or aspirants to do things you don’t like and they don’t like, against everybody’s feelings. This IS ABUSE. And I guess you can list lots of other abuse situations you’ve been a part of. You KNOW it, you still do it or did it, YOU’RE ABUSING PEOPLE – or you’ve been abusing people, YOU ARE ABUSED or you’ve been abused. It took me about 5 years to understand the process that’s been at work in me since I’ve been involved in the maha’s ‘knowledge’. And this clearly an abuse process. Replace consciousness by the Rev. Rawat’s knowledge, and you’re ready for any abuse. He thrives on this.

Subject: good post JM [nt] From: bill To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:41:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:16:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it interesting that ex'es feel guilt about the inhumane treatment while, those still in not only do not feel guilt, but still perpetuate to an even greater degree more devestating abuse?

Subject: Re: then I'm proud to say: From: janet To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:28:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thinking on your clear definition of things you did in the name of service, against your own feelings and ethics, by that definition, I am proud to say that the one time I was handed a bona fide service from IHQ, after guru pujha amherst--to run the Shelter at 1607 Race St in Denver until a new housemother and housefather could be found to step into the shoes of Bill Snow and Annie, who were both struck down by physical impairments after the festival and couldnt return to denver until they were well-- by your definition JM, I accepted the assignemnt of service when asked to, but I made irrevocably sure I did not perpetrate the pattern of abuse i had witnessed in the ashrams already. I did away with the chore roster and the assigned duty sheet. I told everyone to do whatever they saw about them that needed doing, and to do it as they felt it should be done. Everything was volunteer, and only to be undertaken if you wanted to and were moved to do it as a labor of love. And that place shone, for the time i was the head of things. Someone hand carved a sign for the lawn. someone else dug and planted a garden of veggies. every day a different cluster of friends wanted to make breakfast of lunch or dinner for the whole house. some industrious fellow cleaned out the basement and set up a complete workshop, all organized and inventoried, and whatever needed fixed, he took in and turned back out good as new. I never had to tell anyone to do anything. People just saw something and did it, of their own impulse and did it beautifully. I really was disappointed when they finally sent elliot brye down to take over in september. She had to do it the Official Way, and the list went back up and the doleful Order was reinstated, and I was summarily told to leave. Used up like toilet pap then cast off as trash. And before i left, i found Elliot sweeping the stairs one afternoon, obviously not happy and seeming to be wrestling with herself about something inwardly, and i stopped to ask her what it was. I had some of the highest, best moments of m life in Knowledge during that period of running the Shelter, and her sadness and wistfulness seemed odd. I wuld have only been too pleased to keep the job for her, and let her go do what would have made her happy, if i could have been permitted. But she sighed and resolutely turned back to her sweeping, as if it was a sentence she must serve out, and she gave me some thin speech, more to convince herself than me, about how the answer to whatever bothered her must be in either ssatsang, service or meditation, so she was trying each one in turn, until she found what worked. I thought that was a pathetic response to whatever it was that was troubling her, but after all, according to the Official Dictum, I was no longer welcome anymore, and was to be getting on out the door. so I left her to her sweeping and headed on out to my next bizarre chapter in DLM. it felt a little like 'see here, now--you people are having too much fun at this. we can't be having that. you need to suffer more and experience more pain, so you will surrender. we cant be having all this love and radiance and good cheer. back to work! eebee saYS SHE WAS THERE THEN. MAYBE SHE CAN CORROBORATE WHAT IT WAS LIKE BEING THERE UNDER MY 'REIGN'. i thought it was pretty good. but I'm only one person. i would welcome another perpective from anyone who was there during the same time, to see if I'be got it skewed or pretty much acurate. it was great, once the control freak attitude was removed from the picture.

Subject: oh yes, we are such poooor saps, pity on us please From: trollanand To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:52:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks trollanand you give From: Jethro To: trollanand Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:01:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: us the perfect demonstration in premie courage. It is called 'hit and run' taught to you by your master.

Subject: and the webmaster.. From: trollo To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:48:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gives an example of exes courage..I am amazed my above post was NOT deleted...right on, chaps!!!

Subject: Hey look at it this way, From: Tonette To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:07:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your point is right on the money about the abuse process that is immeshed in and a part of Maharaji's cult and Maharaji. What a fascinating way to look at it. However, perhaps what happened with the scene you outlined above; throwing this guy out of the ashram, was not in fact abuse, did you ever consider that perhaps, you did him a favor? I wouldn't beat myself up over it. It's not like you murdered someone or raped children. But it is so true when you write, 'you REPLACE your human consciousness with nothingness. Serving the ‘master’ becomes your criteria, in order to ‘experience’ that so-called ‘knowledge’. And this is when you become an abuser in a system where everybody is abusing everybody. There are all sorts of abuses you’re a part of. The most innocent ones, and the worst ones. This is the name of the game.' You are absolutely right. I had never quite thought of it in this way. Kinda reminds me of the 'grace race' to be in M's limelight or to appear as a worthy devotee. Oh some of the stuff that went down! I remember being given 2 weeks notice that my husband and I had to move out of a basement apartment we were renting from a premie couple. They sold their house, packed their things and told us to move. I thought gee, this is kinda sudden, thanks for the notice. Why are you moving to Florida all of a sudden. Ah, well, we're going for service. Oh really, what are you going to be doing? Ummmmm, can't tell you, it's a secret. Oh. Well, nice knowing you and what a great friend you've been, NOT! How about the welfare mother who sent in a chunk of her monthly welfare money to her lord. The abusive thing about this was, she had a 2 year old girl who needed food, clothes and medical care. You had parents abusing their own children and not even realizing it! Fondly, Tonette

Subject: We've all done things.... From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:02:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......we aren't proud of,& by'we'I mean everyone alive who has ever thought about how to live 'righteously', but realises eventually that it's a losing battle....perfection in human affairs isn't possible...the best one can do is to be on guard. Rawat's terrible & unforgiveable lie is that he can shortcircuit the human condition.That through his mere existence it's possible to have human relationships,touched with divine love,where shit doesn't happen. My old mother told me he was the anti-christ 30 yrs ago,& whilst I don't go with that particular view of the world,I can now see what she was getting at. The man is a prostitute: 'power without responsibilty,the prerogative of the harlot down the ages'. It's not that you had to fuck someone over in his service is the awful thing,but that being in his service was supposed to put a stop to people being fucked over. I wish I hadn't found moral philosophy such a boring subject when I was 19. He,or anyone like him ever seduces my children,I don't give a fuck,I'll swing.

Subject: Yes, it's ironic From: Tonette To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:59:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What you wrote: 'It's not that you had to fuck someone over in his service is the awful thing,but that being in his service was supposed to put a stop to people being fucked over' When I first got into K it really was a unity of people, thru an expression of love that originated from 'within' thru the techniques of meditation. Oh how it was! Unity, compassion, elevation, purpose. But that asshole M trashed it! He really did. He took the dedication, intellect, and spirit of all who wanted to live this reality and twisted it into an utterly hideous cult. Can you imagine, minus the megalomania imposed by M, what all of us could of really done? What we would be like now? How we would of bettered ourselves and the world? The talent, the intent, and resources were all there. What a waste. What an incrediably sad story. It's tragic. We got fucked, we became somewhat unkind to each other thru his direction and management, the potential and what we were becoming was stopped. Why? M never realized the real wealth he had you see. He quickly grew tired of us and all that we offered and focused on the almighty buck. He continues to do so to this day. I'm sorry to use the F word but it escapes me what word would be a more concise summary. That really hit home for me Pat what you wrote. How true it is. Actually, it made me cry. The loss. The waste. And I'm with you, if anyone harms a hair on my children's head you had better watch out. You'll have me to contend with. I don't imagine anyone would mess with my 6'4', 245lb lineman son at age 17 unless they were crazy. My daughter however, that's a different story. She's eleven. I would do more than swing and I would get away with it. BTW, your mother was right. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not proud of behaving in a superior way to premies who 'didn't get to' be around M. I was a pretty strict church lady while in the ashram. I put people off with my 'from the mount satsang' which was condescending to those who weren't in the ashram for whatever reason. None of my beeswax. But that didn't stop me. Oh no. I talked... I also stole money from the community fund when I was assistant community coordinator in Gainesville, FL. I must confess. But only when I needed something Clinque, like make-up or moistourizer (sp?). Never more than $10.00. I needed to indulge. Once in a while a blouse on sale:( The important thing is to remember to forgive ourselves. Now I live a healthy and moral life. No thanks to Prem Rawat. Love to all, Cynthia

Subject: Forgiveness From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 14:12:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I forgive everyone who did my head in back then & I'm not saying that out of some sort of touchy feely emotion,but out of the recognition that we were all in the same boat,even though some were closer to the captain than others. I spent my time in steerage & cordially disliked most ashram premies whilst feeling guilty(on & off) for not being of their number. It's only since EPO that I've been able to see the big picture(I know that's obvious,but it needs to be restated again & again),after all you can't put yourself into someone elses shoes unless you have the information about what really happened. Rawat's spiritual pyramid scheme certainly seems transparent now,but back then we were 'one in the spirit',even though the elect were more in the spirit than the 'community' premies. I must say my very 1st impression of the forum was'Christ,ashram premies,I'd forgotten they existed,& here they are again shouting & raving'.....Then I began to understand. I'm not sure we can forgive ourselves;some of the things I've done make me cringe with shame when I remember them(thankfully not too often),& I just hope that others will forgive me. We'll bear the scars forever but will be all the wiser for them.Of that I AM sure. It's a public holiday here for the Queen's Jubilee & the road outside is quiet,the kids are on holiday in France with their Aunt,the wife has gone to sing Land of Hope & Glory with her friends from work,& as a cool & golden early summer evening fades,I'm going downstairs to read a book. That's peace & freedom.(God bless her majesty)

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:00:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So Cynthia, if you tallied up a salary for what you did at Decca, what would it have been? A hecka of a lot more than a bottle of Clinique and a blouse!

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:08:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, I had to giggle when Tonette said 'you wore make-up in the ashram?' I don't feel a bit guilty. Many of us wore make-up in the ashram in Miami. There were many California girls of the PAM type there who work silk outfits--ashramers, too. But my skin is very sensitive to the sun and without make-up my skin would have fried in Florida. My skin is so sensitive I cannot even wear titanium ear rings. I can't wear gold or silver or any metal around my neck or wrists. Even beads give me a rash. I loved Clinique products and used them prior to ashram life--they really made my skin so clear and nice. Ah...my youthful skin. That's one thing Maha didn't get. I inherited good skin--if I protect it. My maternal grandmother had peaches and cream skin into her 70s. I digress... Deca work, wow! If I calculated the regular hours, i.e., 8 to 5, usually seven days per week, it would be a lot of bucks, plus interest times the number of years past, 22 years! It would be a much larger amount if I put in for the overtime pay at time and a half! Not just the Saturdays and Sundays, but the 24 to 72 hour gigs doing slavery for Prem Pay Pal. DECA's a sore spot for me and I like people to discuss it here. There were so many premies there working for free or a small stipend. Anything for darshaaaaan... Oh yeah, again, I knowingly handled illegally obtained photocopied documents. Boeing 707 specs smuggled out of Boeing in Seattle for Maharaji and his Boeing 707. Being in a cult will make people do anything for a bona fide;) LOTU. That, I regret, because normally I'm a Whistle Blower not a conspiratorial, secretive type of person. Ten bucks here and there from the Gainesville community? BFD. Btw, that blouse was borrowed from me by a sister who volunteered to wait tables at the lard's birthday bash in Miami--the one with entertainment and a sit down meal. I never got to wear it once and she got salad oil all over the front. Pisser. ;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: We've all done things.... From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:05:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I put people off with my 'from the mount satsang' which was condescending to those who weren't in the ashram for whatever reason.' That was because prem always told us(ashram premies) that WE were the ones that gave our lives to Him and NOT the others. Love Jethro

Subject: You wicked person, you, you, From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You wore makeup while in the ashram?????? And stole $10.00!! Maybe more than once?? And you bought a, a, a, I'm just so shocked I can hardley speak, bought a BLOUSE???!!!!! Cynthia, this completely changes my opinion of you. Prem, I hope you're reading this. Make a hard copy, put this confession on your website. It throughly substantiates and illustrates that the ex's here were never true premies to begin with. psst. want to hear what I did? I stole money from divine sales at the Kissimee Festival, 1979. Best service I ever had. For three blissful days I sold pictures of the divine family, and they were expensive too. Had no problem showing up and getting into that service! I pocketed about $30.00 a day. I figured I deserved some wages which I figured was about 5% of what I sold. And there was the question of gas money to get home with. I wasn't going to rely on 'grace' to solve that little dilemna. I completely forgive myself. Giggling here Tonette

Subject: Well said, J-M and thanks! From: Richard To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:04:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your thoughts on the abuse cycle are well thought out and heart-wrenching as well. Just stating what you have will, hopefully, allow you to release the old guilt surrounding your actions long ago. Thanks for having the heart to tell us. Richard

Subject: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 10:18:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope you sent a copy to our mutual friend. I know that I did things as community co-ordinator that I now regret and hope that I will also have the opportunity to apologize one day.

Subject: Re: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apologizing to him for this abuse, and the reflection I had on this particular event had a very powerful effect on me. I wish other persons who've been in position of power in EV/DLM or anywhere else to have the same opportunity.

Subject: Re: Very well said, Jean-Michel From: Jean Valjean To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Thank you JM for you telling this story. It helps me a LOT. As a matter of fact i did answer you email but it did not go thru as i got some technical bugs with my messenger (OE AND Nestcape). It strikes me now how abuse was and still is the keey word for the dynamic that was/is going on in youknowho's 'world' and i clearly remember that i KNEW it! I dit put all the blame (as HE was) onto the organization people. Very little did i understand this was coming from the top. I do say again this is over now for me and as someone said earlier, this is no big deal and i suvived it. To speak about it is very healing though and that puts an highlight upon all the others abuses i have been thru as a victim or abuser. Quite uneasy it is to express all my very feeling in english, and to make it short, i am not a fence-sitter anymore. I jumped into the maya. And it is SO beautiful!!! Hope to see you when i go to Paris.

Subject: Thank you too From: Jean-Michel To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:06:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post moved me to tears, really. You know what ? I'm expecting the persons who've abused me in the cult to apologize. Maybe I'm dreaming a bit .... I won't tell names, but there are definitely some persons I'd like to hear apologies from.

Subject: Re: Thank you too From: Jean Valjean To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 00:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: You are dreaming JM, no one wants to remember, to say the least, and I think this is quite normal. Life goes on and I see our discussion here like a chance as an opportunity for us to unknot some knots, which is very rare and rewarding. The chances were very remote for us to be confronted with this topic. Thanks to the internet and EPO, which is very funny and interesting, at least here on the us forum. As i told you, i did put the blame on the organization people for all the incompetence and hierarchy syndrom that was going on in youknowhozworld, and you can imagine what kind of thinkings got me about you when reading your posts (very angry ones moreover) for the first time on the french forum, me as a faithfull devotee. Satan in comparizon would be a pretty gentle fellow. But the strength of pure information did the job. This is why HE is so frightened with the press and free information. No on should see what is going on behind the curtain, which is not THAT awfull, but just plain regular lapse into vulgarity.

Subject: I hope it helps him From: PatC To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:43:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll email him soon and talk about it. Thanks again, J-M.

Subject: Re: I hope it helps him From: Jean Valean To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:52:09 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: YES, it helps a lot. Thank you

Subject: good post, J-M From: Roger eDrek To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:29:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it certainly did begin with emptying one's self out, didn't it?

Subject: Responsibility and the limits From: Jean-Michel To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:14:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem boils down to how far can you accept doing things or hearing things you don't agree with for the sake of your faith ? I did this, in spite of my feelings, because I was blinded by my faith, but that doesn't undermine my responsibility in what happened. That's the worst thing I did whilst in the cult I guess. But there are countless situations I've been a part of where we've been consciously lying to people, or organizing things 'in the way M wants it', knowing there was something wrong in doing so. I've been in countless situations where I've watched people who were in charge - and under M's 'agya' - do the most unethical or stupid things. And I never said: 'that's enough, I can be a part of this anymore'. I shut up. I remember one time in Rome (late 80s I guess) I guess, when I was doing some service with one of M's personnal assistants (one tall Australian honcho I don't remember his name, working with Ray B.). And the guy was doing a big mistake, jeopardizing the whole assigned seating system. That was a big issue that day believe me. I first undid what he'd just done, putting the things back straight - according to the complicated plan. He noticed what I did, abused me verbally, and did it again the way he wanted it - in the name of the superior consciousness he was pretending to have. Of course the whole seating system collapsed because of what he did. I heard M was furious about it. Not talking of the hundreds of premies who did service in the seating system, that was useless at the end of the day - the huge amounts of money spent uselessly etc. I remember the feeling I had being a part of such an absurd thing. That didn't make me quit. I finally decided to quit in 96-97 when the cup was full, partly because the main people responsible for abuses cases were back to power - or promoted - in the organization, and I din't want to be a part of it anymore. It took that much .....

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:15:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Main Entry: 1abuse Pronunciation: &-'byüs Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French abus, from Latin abusus, from abuti to consume, from ab- + uti to use Date: 15th century 1 : a corrupt practice or custom 2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE 3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION 4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily 5 : physical maltreatment synonyms ABUSE, VITUPERATION, INVECTIVE, OBLOQUY, BILLINGSGATE mean vehemently expressed condemnation or disapproval. ABUSE, the most general term, usually implies the anger of the speaker and stresses the harshness of the language . VITUPERATION implies fluent and sustained abuse . INVECTIVE implies a comparable vehemence but suggests greater verbal and rhetorical skill and may apply to a public denunciation . OBLOQUY suggests defamation and consequent shame and disgrace . BILLINGSGATE implies practiced fluency and variety of profane or obscene abuse . Yes, I'd say the word 'abuse' is very appropriate. Courageous post Jean-Michel.

Subject: Re: We've all been abused by the maha From: Pat W To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:46:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good post JM..I agree completely. Vicki...would you mind telling which dictionary you're using? It sounds rather useful.

Subject: Dictionary From: Vicki To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:13:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just pop the word dictionary in google and several show up. This one is easy to use. M-Webster www.m-w.com/home.htm

Subject: Through the ages... From: Neville To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...religion has often had this effect, of confusing intelligent and sensitive men so that they act with cruelty and stupidity. It's a familiar story. It's one of the reasons I'm a Christian who hates religion. Neville

Subject: Caution for email virus from me From: Roger eDrek To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 23:09:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somebody is masking an email that pretends to come from one of my personal accounts at ISP oz.net. Do not open the attachment because it might be a virus. This is really bullshit. And you sickos out there need to stop this crap.

Subject: It's not just you, Roger From: JHB To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've had many email viruses that at first glance appear to be from various ex-premies, but the return address is always different. As I've said before, they really are wasting their time as I'm properly protected. John.

Subject: Re: It's not just you, Roger From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:24:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's why I only post a web-based email here. I get at least one a day and sometimes more.

Subject: Just got one From: Tim G To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:36:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just got one from a certain 'Moldy Warp'! Thank God for NORTON

Subject: Re: Just got one From: PatC To: Tim G Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've had several purportedly from Moldy and one from Kathy Barragon. LOL.

Subject: This is deliberate targetting From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 16:27:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most viruses spread 'innocently' in that the person spreading the virus doesn't realise it as they have also been infected, and the virus software picks up addresses from the person's address book. But enough of the viruses I've received recently, appearing to be from ex-premies, could not possible have been spread that way. Someone is deliberately trying to make us think that these emails are coming from people we trust. AS I SAID BEFORE, THESE PEOPLE ARE WASTING THEIR TIME! To the perpretrators, why not put your energy into defending your master rationally? John.

Subject: Come now John, that's the only real service left From: Tonette To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since Maharaji purports to be so computer savy, as well as a musician, poet, pilot, self knowledge teacher and his credentials do impress the beautiful, rich and powerful readers of 'Leaders Magazine,' surely you can't begrudge a few bothersome devotees trying to gain attention and impress their master with their ability to seize the ex cyber world by sending e-mail viruses. It's one of the few real services left for them. No more video's to show, no more trinkets to buy, no real agya except to send in that check. Premies were always high energy. If he's not going to give them a service well, left to their own devices, they'll make one of their own. And using the computer might get them an invite from the Master himself. Perhaps, they dare to dream and hope, my master might want me to show him how I did it! Take care, Tonette

Subject: Tonette you too funny! LOLOLOL [nt] From: Cynthia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:27:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: a theory re:Randy Prouty, et al.... From: Matlock To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:53:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is just a theory, and perhaps a cynical one at that, but we ARE dealing with prem rawat, a man who will do just about anything to preserve his power base and financial income..... So here goes..... 1)Randy was privy to two of the most damning and controversial pieces of informaion to date: a)the 'hit and run' bicycle incident in India b)the 'non-reporting' of jagdeo sexual abuses He may also know about plenty of other stuff, both from first hand experience, and other incidents that he may have heard about, from good sources... 2)People have repored that Randy was not in the 'inner circle' for a long time, and was supposely living with his girlfriend, and selling real estate on the coast of NC, or something like that... 3)In the last few years, he and girlfriend move to the malibu area....supposedly she was offered an 'inner circle' position, and Randy somewhat reluctantly went along, but is also close to the action now.... 4)THEORY: Could it be that Randy knows a lot, is mentioned a lot on epo, and that prem rawat has asked hm and maybe other former pams to come around again, maybe in a limited way, to bring them closer to the fold, rather than farther away, and thus be less likely to 'talk' like some of the other former pams have done? If it looks like he or any other pam might spill some damaging info, you bring them closer with the promise of a little dashan and inner circle action to keep them on your side, rather than going farther away and possibly talking... What do you think?

Subject: Re: a theory re:Randy Prouty, et al.... From: Vicki To: Matlock Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 09:17:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The adage 'Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer' just might apply. In this case, it might be potential enemies.

Subject: Lets play guess the PAM From: Loaf To: Matlock Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 08:37:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean... its hardly a shocking revelation that maharaji uses people... the question and the shock is 'how far does he go ?' I remember that 'to be used by M' was my earnest prayer for many many years. I wanted to belong to him and be used by him. PAMs would like me for my fresh faced enthusiasm and sometimes (perhaps) try to 'educate me' by telling me that 'its not all roses at the top' I remember distinctly long conversations with Ron Geaves and others (whos confidence I would not break since they are utterly dependant upon Maharaji for their livelihood.) They ALL at some point or another had come to the disappointing realisation that maharaji didnt givea fuck about anyone else. One PAM told me many times how it was clear to them that Maharaji didnt give a fuck about anybody else. 'He doesnt care for ANYONE, except his family'. This PAM felt used, abused and spat out by M, the problem being that there is nowhere else to go. They told me many times that M wasnt very 'likeable' and that the humble and sweet guy you see on stage (we are in the 90s now before you all start shouting and throwing shoes)is an 'act', and yet in the same breath they would say how 'NOTHING in their life mattered to them as much as their personal relationship with Maharaji' His company confers status, approval, self esteem, financial security and the attendant pre-programmed bliss. So the prouty manipulation you propose is not far fetched at all. As my friend the PAM said to me ' Maharaji sees people as toys to play with and use, and when he is tired of you he just throws you away.' Can anyone guess who my PAM is ? Post your guesses.

Subject: Glen Whitewash Whittaker? [nt] From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:14:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey, that was my guess! From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But I decided not to bother posting it. Hey, Glen, if you're reading this, does it feel good to have people thinking of you! John.

Subject: nope.. not Glen try again From: Loaf To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 12:45:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glen told me once that he read some anti-newspaper articles in the 70s and got confused for a short while. Glen has always seemed extremely caring and fair (in my dealings with him)- and although his converstions have been at times been healthily disrespectful of Maharaji the idol - I cant imagine him speaking critically of maharaji's attitude to the premies... Glen is much more likely to say 'hes the lord and if thats the way he wants to play... ' Nope its not Glen... but someone else very close to M in the 1970s and early 80s...

Subject: Milky? From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:03:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is it Milky aka Michael Cole? Or Julian West?

Subject: Re: Milky? From: Loaf To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:18:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am bored of this game now. It was dear old Peter Lee, the long time number one driver. I remember when I went to the residence the one time I was XRated and was appalled at the atmosphere of paranoia and fear there. Maharaji was around, but everyone was scared shitless of losing their tenuous foothold on the social pyramid. I was 'told off' for letting M's dogs out by accident (they were dying of thirst on a blisteringly hot day) so I filled their bowl up with water and opened the gate to put it in... one of the little bastards shot out like a turbo charged rabbit and hurtled directly into the main house. I confessed to my terrible crime and was told in no uncertain terms (By Rick Bluestone) that 'they were maharaji's dogs and if he wanted them to die without water that was no business of mine'. He also told me (weighting hiswords with great importance)that 'IF he was asked who had let the dog out.. he would HAVE to say' i remember at the time thinking.. I wonder if this asshole thinks I should be scared. I was sorry if I had broken a rule, certainly, but not frightened of maharaji finding out. This was a HUGE threat to be levelled at me, but cos of my innocent belief that Maharaji was lovely... why would I be scared ? In fact, looking back, the fear at the res was palpable. Sorry I digress, peter Lee shared a flat with me for a few months when he had returned from india. he wasnt a happy chap, having left the US residence some years earlier cos he couldnt stand the atmosphere. He had quite a bad time of it all - went to stay in Delhi at the invitation of sampurnanand but came back to the UK feeling a bit lost and freaked out. Maharaji studiously ignored him - but peter had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do other than to BEG for some service. He just wanted to be with maharaji with all his heart, and yet he would come home from the res and say what a cold hearted selfish bastard maharaji was, and how it was very evident that M cared nothing for the premies, or for Peter, who was jumping through hoops to appeal to maharaji for some permenant service. Pretty soon Peter was put ona salary and sent out on the road, and was feeling more secure and happy. I however started to have a bad time emotionally, and I am sure that something of the atmosphere at the res that day started to unravel the web of blind, unquestioning faith which I had until then. It was certainly the beginning of the end.. for me. I saw a number of things at the res which disturbed me - the poem by apilot which M has 95% copied, the way I was told off, but most of all it was the atmosphere. It felt as if the pemies were unconcious and M was stepping over their bodies.

Subject: I was right From: Sir Dave To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:37:36 (PDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: and I had already guessed it was Peter Lee and was just about to say so when I read your post. Peter Lee is one person who has been ''tested'' by Maharaji time and time again, right from the early seventies. Peter wanted to have a relationship with a certain female premie but Maharaji said that sure he could have the relationship but he would no longer be his personal driver. So Peter cut the relationship. Ha, how do these guys do it year after year, watching their lives fritter away on broken dreams and empty promises. What kind of tough love have they become addicted to, even when such love is an illusion? Maharaji never loved them. Peter came into the ashram one day and gave a heavy satsang about how bad things were going to get and how we should practice word and nectar. It occured to me that the satsang came from fear and I realised even then that the guy was just about brainwashed up to the hilt. A mission man through and through and a totally loyal devotee who had willingly given his all. And yet beneath that dark moustache was not a happy man. Here was a man who had been tested and tortured by Maharaji over and over again. There was no smile behind that moustache, only tiredness and fear and dogged loyalty to a mistake that is surely tragic in its implications. Oh what a waste to have listened to Maharaji and wasted so many precious years on an impossible dream. Well nightmare actually. For Maharaji keeps people by a sinister and dark emotional blackmail which is cruel in the extreme and yet hardly perceptable to those caught up in its web.

Subject: great story, Loaf. Thanks From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:34:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading it brought back memories of living in Malibu and the absolutely ugly cut-throat culture surrounding M. Once, when I asked why the vibe was so paranoid, I was told by a PAM who lived at the residence (whose name I don't remember) that it was because all the forces of darkness in the universe converged on M to try to destroy him. But to me it simply had the same stink as the paranoia in managment circles in a corporation - naked ambition and the stench of brown-nosing. Big drip.

Subject: Close Encounters From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:26:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is certainly ironic, and then some, that the people who have had Close Encounters of the Satguru Kind (unkind?) invariably have a rude awakening. Of course there are exceptions of the Anderson variety but by and large it ain't no picnic. I know at least 2 former live-in PAMs who have no respect for M after having lived under the same roof. Sorry, no names will be dropped but most would know them. In the beg-ning (beg in the beginning?), you can chalk M's behavior up to lila or one of those clever apologist phrases like The closer you get to the fire the hotter it is ad nauseum. The few times I was in M's close orbit when his presence wasn't being orchestrated, he came off as annoyed, bored and mostly indifferent. The only time I saw him as appearing radiant was when I stood across from him in Kissimmee as he was having his feet kissed in a darshan line. Otherwise he frankly seems uncomfortable with himself. If the masses who yearn to be at the feet only knew they are made of clay. For myself, I mostly tended to separate M the guru from Prem Pal the person. That way my BFD experience of the Divine Whatever could never be diminished by what my "limited mind" thought of Prem Pal the bored man-child. Pay no attention to the tyrant behind the curtain. Richard - been there, done that, woke up

Subject: Grisly From: PatD To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:14:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As JM said a while back the social dynamic around GMJ is that of a medieaval court. Horrible,& entirely without any point whatsoever. At least the courtiers of the real world kings got half a county for their subservience,but what do you get in rawatworld.....a poxy driving job. It's sad.

Subject: p.s.......... From: PatD To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 16:53:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......forgot to ask you whether he's still into it.

Subject: Sandy Collier [nt] From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:10:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pat.. see my Milky post above [nt] From: Loaf To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:22:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yikes and payrolls From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:36:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yikes to all of this about Peter Lee. One can't help wondering how much more people can bring themselves to put up with (and shut up about) when they are finally on the payroll. Incidentally, how many people are on the payroll these days? Apart from the obvious like Bobby Hendry and Sandy Collier, who else? Peter Lee cheered up considerably when he was put on a salary - not surprising because where could he go after 30 years as Maharaji's driver? In fact, where could any of them go after a lifetime's dedication and no qualifications whatsoever? A guaranteed salary would be quite an incentive for any of them to put up and shut up. Love, Livia

Subject: Addendum re Rick Bluestone From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 06:41:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf, was that the Rick Bluestone with a brother, from North London? They used to run a shop called Mr Grumpy's in Camden Town? He seemed a harmless enough guy back in the 70's - I had no idea he was now an x-rated PAM-type living in LA. It all sounds quite surreal... Love, Livia

Subject: More on Peter Lee (and a bit about Rick) From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:09:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi livia Rick was a cool guy... but when I knew him he was living round the corner from the Reigate residence (this is around 93) and he and his irish housemate (Euan ??) and Peter Lee used to get considerably stoned whenever the opportunity arose. I remember Peter smoked a pipe or two a day.. i remember saying to him one day 'maharaji would never smoke dope' and he almost laughed. Peter, after he left the USA studied photography in college in the UK, but I think he really missed the high life around the res and felt really 'shut out'. He said to me once that leaving the residence staff in the USA was the worst decision of his life, but that his heal;th was suffering. He was weighing about 8 stones (thats 8 x 14 lbs) and desperately unhappy at the res. he said that a lot of the residence staff fought and bickered and that m was not happy. He was also around at the time that maharaji's marriage was in trouble and a counsellor came to the house. I remember his telling me that the counsellor (Dr Irene Kassorla ?)was talking to/working with a group of people (M included) and that they commented that ONE person in the group was not 'opening up'... at which point Peter told me that M stood up and walked out. Peter really is a lovely chap, and i didnt initially want tobreak his confidence (not that anything was told to me in confidence.. in 1993 the idea that information and repeated casual talk could be made available internationally was unthinkable.) i got to know Peter very well. Ultimately, though, I think he was lost without maharaji's endorsement, and like an addict, was compelled to return to the very source of his problems. When you are 50, careerless, unemployable, broke, with a 20 year gap in your CV and no ambition left... except to return to the shelter of an admittedly callous and careless master to BEG for employment.. no matter how menial... the dynamics of PAM's are revealed to be desperately insecure. I got the distinct feeling from my contact with mahraji around this time, and from tales told by various idiots (including Ron Geeves) that maharaji doesnt like premies very much. I got the impression that He finds them weak and needy... exactly the way he wants them. Isn't there something deeply rooted in Maharaji's pattern of getting people to beg you for stuff, and then to despise them for it ? It sounds like there lies an extended infantile tantrum at the heart of what seemed to be infinite grace and wisdom.

Subject: Re: More on Peter Lee (and a bit about Rick) From: Bai Ji To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:36:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter took me to a little Tudor Pub one day for lunch. He had to take M's Rolls Royce Silver Shadow out for a run and as I was helping at the Res he asked me if I wanted to go for a run. M was in Malibu at the time. I felt like a queen pulling up in the carriageway of the hotel, all eyes checking out the rare expensive vehicle. I have had so little luxury in my life and it was fun to vicariously experience the stares of appreciation from the fellow diners in the restaurant. If they only knew I thought that this was the Lord's car and I was just dust. Years later I was talking with Rick and I asked after Peter and he told me that Peter had been in Malibu and was extremely tired from all his duties and touring around. He apparantly made the fatal mistake of talking to M about this and asked if it was possible to have a break to take a rest. M was quiet and then turned to him and said really angrily 'You know what , why don't you take a break, a permanent break!' and sent him away. Poor Peter was devastated. He felt that he had completely blown it. He returned to England where Rick said he spent his days at the Residence gate/Guest house, watching the cricket and drinking beer, totally depressed. Just waiting for M to acknowledge him and give him a service again. This went on for a couple of years and then Rick said that one day Peter decided to stop drinking and try to get his act together. As the story goes, the next day the phone rang and it was M out of the blue talking like nothing had happened and giving him something to do. He was alive again. Grace, Lila. He told me this and more in response to my sharing with him my longing to serve M personally in my life and he was trying to illustrate that M knows all and to 'Hang in there.' Well I hung in there untill I realised what misery I was in, living my life on the whim of someone who doesn't even know my name or care that I am in pain. A lot of good, beautiful people are hurting this way. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Part of this is a Lie From: Loaf To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:09:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M never rang Peter. Peter went to do a photography course in college, but couldnt get into it. He was having a hard time. He asked Sanpurnanand if he could go and stay at the ashram in Delhi where he did... and nearly went out of his mind with boredom. He returned to the UK in time for the event at Wembley arena. I shared a hotel room with him. M never called him. He was staying with some premies in Swiss Cottage (Toby) and pining for his life with Maharaji (I am writing this without judgement) he moved in with me in a flat of a friend of mine in Knightsbridge which I was renting a room of. I lent him my car and he was happy as a pig in poo.. zipping up to the residence whenever he could be near M - but at the same time hurt and angry and sad about what had happened. His didnt enjoy public speaking, all he wanted to do was serve M personally. He begged and begged ... and eventually was put on the payroll and sent out to speak - pretty much as and when he liked. He spent quite a while on the road.. being looked after in peoples houses, saving his wages up as he realised he had no security for old age. I havnt spoken to him for years... he came to stay in Liverpool at Mum's house shortly after I had come back here in the midst of a breakdown. I really should have said 'No' but I didnt.. I was in a bad way, but tried to hide it. He never has asked how I am since. None of the Premies who were aware that I was having a bad time have EVER asked how I am doing. Tells you a lot really.... fair weather friends.

Subject: Re: Part of this is a Lie From: Bai Ji To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 16:19:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for clearing that up. It just goes to show me that a Lot of what I believed to be True was distorted. I considered Rick to be a sort of PAM and had no reason to doubt him. Especially since it helped maintain my belief that M knew my every thought and intention. I just prayed that one day he would see what a true devotee I was and 'pick me up'

Subject: Rick was manipulative From: Loaf To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 21:59:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Also, as I recalled down below somewhere.. I clearly remember Peter telling me that M was very sweet to him when he decided to have a break. Now, there is always the possibility that Peter was wanting everyone to believe (and himself too) that he had never fallen out of favour and so perpetuating a myth... but I think it more likely that Rick was making up stories in order to make his presence at the residence seem impressive. Who knows....

Subject: Curious about the payroll, would you? From: Tonette To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:38:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Loaf, I'm dying with curiousity and I don't mean to sideline this discussion but do you remember how much Peter was paid? I'd like to know what M's 'motivational speakers' were getting at that time. I had no idea they were paid at all. I always thought that that was why they lived off the backs of the communitites they visited and were housed in. What year was this? Anyway, if it's any consolation, I never had much luck with premies as friends either. In fact, I had a few perfectly horrible betrayals from people I thought were my friends first and premies second. One from a best friend I had know since college. And yes, it was related to M's world in several ways. I don't want to go into detail but you're not the only one who experienced premies as fair weather friends. To this day, I still think it interfers with my general trust of anyone outside my family. I gotta know you awhile before I let you in, know what I mean? For what's it worth, I hope you're doing okay. A breakdown, sure will get your attention. They can take a long time to recover from. Not fun at all. I'd rather have a fractured femur, or lose a finger to tell you the truth. Tonette

Subject: i am fine thanks From: Loaf To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:45:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter was paid (from memory) Ł 250.00 a week in 1993/4 - it was basically like a teachers salary. Same for all the full timers I believe, like Peter Dawson. I remember getting the vague impression that there was some slight resistance from Glen Whittaker.. or I may have got that completely confused in my mind and Glen engineered the whole thing. Incidentally Dawson and Lee were rivals for the same job...PD was number one chaffeur in the UK after Peter Lee went on his 'break' and later became M's valet for a while. Peter Lee was therafter employed as a 'back -up driver' and drove the family a lot to the theatre and to events. He would have cheerfully taken peter dawson's job back off him... i remember him commenting one time when he was driving Hansi and Amar following PD driving M that he thought Peter Dawsons driving wasnt very good. Peter Dawson is also on record as saying he would break anybody's legs who tied to take his service off him. Happy days.

Subject: Re: Peter Dawson From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where does Peter Dawson live? In America or England? If he lives in England what does he do when M isn't here? I always thought of him as a rather flat person, although he always used to say he was happy. He was unusual in that he was much older than most of us - probably by about 10 years or so. Sort of from a different generation. He was once an actor and I always felt it was a bit sad that he had abandoned what could have been a good career for him. Actually he did have quite a good, dry sense of humour, but I always felt he was a very hidden person, not as happy as he made out. For someone like him to realise that M is not what he purports to be could be potentially quite devastating as he must be in his 60's by now. Livia

Subject: Re: Peter Dawson From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:24:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I spent qhite a bit of time with Pete, always was friendly if, yes, a little 'dry'....but was disturbed by last encounter when he was needlessly rude and abrupt after another p's genuine question, and kinda cold shouldered me after the event....'don't wan't anyoneone to disturb my focus' vibe.....another good old friend on his way to the zombie plant. :-(

Subject: Frank the gardener From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:08:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And while in this gossip mode - although I see it as more than that, although it's interesting for sure but it's also revealing to hear what's happened to people over the years, especially those who were once very close to him - does anyone know what happened to Frank the gardener? I forget his other name (creeping Alzheimers). He was one hell of a devotee. Livia

Subject: Re: Frank the gardener From: Moll of Mole To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:03:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Frank Howard, wonderful guy, couldn't read nor write but had the biggest heart, would do any thing for a friend. I saw him a few years back. He was happily married, I think living near Manchester. Still a devotee. Moll of Mole

Subject: Salary details above... From: Loaf To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Things are coming back to me as I remember. Peter definitely said that Maharaji was very sweet with him when he asked for his break. He said he was kind and thoughtful to him at thattime, and sorry to see him go. Rick Bluestone is stirring things up for effect.

Subject: Got it. Not much money at all From: Tonette To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:48:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But better than what some were paid, which would equate to nothing! Funny how the PAMs who exited early, well not all, nor a majority, ended up much better off financially than the PAMs who are more recently gone. I've read this thread between you guys. Interesting but mostly so very sad for these individuals. But it was all about love. Yeah right. Thanks Loaf, Tonette

Subject: Thanks Bai, Loaf and Tonette From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:38:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf and Bai Ji, your writing is always so raw and personal. And I know I am not the only one who loves these stories. This is our history - okay maybe it's really only gossip but it's still scrumptious. I was right there with you. I stopped making friends with premies after 1982 but those first ten years in the cult were heaven and hell to me. I had never before loved any other people as much as I did premies - I mean real love affairs and plenty. The whole UK scene seemed to be so sexually incestuous - everyone was someone else's former lover. It was my intense friendships with premies that kept me in the cult at first. I think I would be just as emotionally raw as you guys if I had had recent love affairs with premies but I haven't for 20 years. All I can say is: thank god I never fell in love or pined for Prem the way some premies did. I loved him the way a good christian Should (in spite of his faults - and it was obvious from day one that he had a few) and hyped up some devotion occassionally but never pined the way Peter did - or I think you do. Dear practical Tonette, I'd like to know the financial details too. The only people on payroll nowadays are family, business employees, lawyers, PR consultants and domestic servants. Instructors are on the way out, in a state of limbo and, in recent years, have had to be financially independent as they were all volunteers. Yes, there are still some true devotees left.

Subject: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:31:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loaf, Crikey to all of this. I had no idea. Well, I did, but... After reading all this stuff in the last couple of days it seems increasingly obvious what has happened/is happening to these poor people. No wonder Sandy looked like such a shadow of her former self in the Passages video... From what you say the only explanation can be that Maharaji is in the grip of a serious personality disorder. It's probably of the narcissism variety, and, according to descriptions of narcissism I have read, leads to intense bullying. In other words, he needs devotion/servitude but then despises those who devote themselves/serve him. The devotees are in a terrible trap because of their own low self-esteem which got them there in the first place. They need his approval for their survival and will do anyhting to get it, like poor Anne Johnson, who still apparently craves Maharaji's recognition. It's terribly terribly sad. These people desperately need to get out, get therapy, sort themselves out and get lives, real lives, before it's truly too late. One can only hope that some of them are reading here and have the courage to act. Any premie who still harboured any hope of ending up in close proximity must surely realise by now that it's just not worth it and at best completely avoided. I don't know if anyone here is in close proximity to any practising premies but I had a conversation with one just yesterday who seems totally bemused by the way things are going. He's an active premie of 30 years standing and told me he doesn't like anything that's going on at the moment. He said he just keeps his head down, does his meditation and doesn't even try to comprehend what's going on. Compared to the happy radiant person he was a few years back he now seems disillusioned and cynical. But he still hangs on in there. Not for long I wouldn't think. And he must be representative of many. My God I'm glad I stopped trying to get close to the lotus feet many years ago.... This is a good place to be and the air is fresh. Love to all of you and thanks, Loaf, for these fresh revelations. Livia XX

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:04:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ((((((( shiver )))))) Liv, if a crash is gonna come, there's gonna be a lot of pieces to pick up; even now i have days when my head spins, or faced with adversity I start to spontaneously 'go into holy name', other times i feel an anger, uptight , can't trace it, just feels like too much of me held back for too long.... god knows , how all this is going to work out. Love as always.

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:36:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV sweetie, yes I have a funny feeling, probably inspired by a rather disquieting conversation I had with a premie of 30 years standing yesterday. Actually he was the disquieted one. He seemed to be all at sea with what on earth is going on - nothing seemed to add up for him and yet he was hanging onto his central belief nonetheless. He probably reflects the views of most premies generally. Meaning - we mustn't make the mistake of thinking the apparently gung-ho attitude of the premies over on LG is representative of the premies generally. I don't think it is. The few practising premies I've spoken to recently seem disorientated and vague; going along with it in the absence of knowing what else to do, really. I think if people like them were to really study EPO in depth, there would no longer be enough to prevent them from jumping. Even if it doesn't happen the first time they look - it's just a matter of time. Especially if they read what Loaf just said above. You couldn't have made it up, really. What a long strange trip it's been... Love to you, Livia XX PS Hey, do you want to meet up and go to the Barbican in July for an incognito bit of darshan along with Bolly, Thorin and me?

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:07:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't know how I feel about incognito darshan (!!!), love to see u guys tho', really. Last time I saw peter, he was on a tour revving people up to come to next event: I knew Peter at the beginning, always seemed a lovely giant soul, bit like a divine Elliot Gould in Mash days! When I saw him, he absolutely stank of tobacco, like he'd been left in a packing crate with 200 cartons of Capstan full strength and a bunsen burner... this was supposed to be a sort of introductory-ish local 'do'..and he was going on and on about M in intimate personal detail, his smile etc etc, like a lovesick thirteen year old girl in boy-band heaven, his body language was soooo embaressing, almost bending into himself in simulated 'rapture'...It was really really awful...I felt so sad to see such a great guy turned into a fawning gopi, with no conception of how he might be coming across to potential aspirants....in fact, on the strength of that evening, I would have to say a took a step further away from M and SK. I think you are right about pwks in general, trouble is, any attempt at trying to open up the discussion , not to slag off M, but just to try and help, is met with an unpredictably unfriendly response. Let you know about july; btw, why do you want to go?

Subject: peter public speaker From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:28:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi AV He is not happy speaking at all. It was an additional cruel twist that he eventually got a job 'revving' when that is the last thing he wanted or should be doing. He quite often gets quite drunk before speaking to give himself the courage to do it... and so he over-acts, says all the words and thinks the feeling should follow. Which it doesnt. I wouldnt be surprised if he isnt a severe casualty of M's... a sincere and devoted soul dying of neglect... so close, and yet so far. The thing it all makes me realise is that once your dependency on maharaji gets REAL.... economic as well as ALL the other ways... then you are in DEEP SHIT, and something in him knows this. Denial keeps you afloat for a while...but he knows he is well and truly fucked... and so he has nothing to lose by clinging on. It would take a lot of help, moral and emotional support and all sorts of kindness to help Peter. There are some very troubled people close to maharaji...and they are staying afloat by clinging onto an unstable little man... its not going to make em better.

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:29:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, thanks, and yes the unfriendly response is common. Well, the suspicious response, really, like 'what's the matter with you, reading all that stuff on the net - what's happened to you? you used to be such a devotee!' But one friend I spoke to, after initial hostility, is now ringing me just like before but just keeping off the subject. I'm really glad we're still friends as I do love her. But there are others I am waring of coming out to, for fear of their shock. Oh dear, what a wimp I am. Why go to the Barbican? Well, I haven't seen him since about 1996 or been to any meeting in all that time either and I'd really like to see how it all feels in the light of all this forum participation. I know there could be the risk of stirring up old feelings and longings but I think I'd like to test out the waters, as part of the distancing process. Does that make sense? I want to see where I am with it all, from the perspective of an observer who is somewhere in the middle of the disconnecting process. I don't feel afraid of being sucked in again and don't think here is any danger. What do you think? Do you think it would/could be interesting? Or too disturbing? Or would you rather leave it for now? Maybe I'm crazy. Love to you, Livia

Subject: Re: Fell at the heat From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:40:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that Liv... I went to Nottm with much the same feeling, to see how M looked, to see how the prog. 'felt', again I tried to distance myself from the information I absorbed on epo, and at that time I was not aware of some of the darker stories of cyclist incident, drunkenness etc. The first thing that hit me was a huge poster with the words 'Grace' taking up a whole wall, about 25ft high. I thought 'blimey' it's still happening! all those little 'clues' as to M's 'real' identity....the next day I noticed another saying 'speed(!!)', then realised it was an ice skating poster, as was the first.....jeez, are my thought processes ever tampered with. By the end of the two days, yes I was being affected, was being moved, felt 'that place, that feeling'.....but the videos; yecchhh...so self congratulatory, esp his little family of blissbunnies, like to see them live in a bedsit in Dalston and keep up the 'gratitude' thing...I'd feel pretty grateful living in the lap of luxury in Malibu....and that's NOT sour grapes....I just detest people who preach food to the starving. And M himself, sounded like behind all the words and his on stage 'presence' and charisma, there was something kinda...ruthless (?), the bit about 'if you don't like it...walk!!' was a tad chilling. And then there was all the usual protracted, complex, tedious and pernickerty procedure for actually getting IN the hall; queues, desks, interrorgations, line swapping.....what's all that about after 30 years??? hello? money-ticket-seat.?...whats the f*****g problem?... never did get that one; and the lame music, and the lame merchandising.... but still something got thru' to me , that 'otherworldly' feeling and sense of being moved. Its a big bag of worms Liv, a really big, big bag of worms. You really wanna do this?...maybe I should go, but I've heard so much since Nottm, It would be difficult not to be judgemental, I don't like that in myself, I want to see things in an uncolored way, if that is at all possible. Still, we must catch up when of these days, it's still a bit scary for me I guess. Love to you and Bolly and Thorin. (X)

Subject: GRACE and SPEED From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, all very interesting. What's with all the interrogations at the check-in? Was it to make sure you were really a premie, like asking you where you received K etc? I've always thought that a little pointless in a way because only a little research could get anyone in, if they really wanted to. Yes I know what you mean about the slightly chilling aspect when he says thingsa like 'Walk if you don't like it'. I noticed that on the Nottingham video from last year. That warm, loving soft tone didn't seem to be there. That other-wordly feeling - it's probably associative memories of the feeling you had back then in the early days. Being in that situation again with all those people would certainly trigger off the feelings you used to have - I know it did for me when I went to Brighton some years back. Although I went to Wembley a few years later and it felt completely empty - I blamed myself. Also being with all those people who have the same thing in mind... But I know, it can be hypnotic stuff. I must say I'm curious to see what it's like in the light of all this. I'd like to know if I could just sit there and be objective, if you know what I mean, but it probably just isn't possible. I'd probably feel either slightly lured back in or deeply negative, neither of which would be the best way to spend an afternoon. Plus all the attendant hassles etc. I'd only go if I could go with two or three of you guys and then go and have a really nice meal afterwards or something. Which could be fun, no? Anyway, there's time to decide. Lots of GRACE and SPEED to you! Love, Livia

Subject: LOL Its SPACE and GREED [nt] From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:14:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re:GREASE AND SPEYED? [nt] From: AV To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:27:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: GROSS and SPEWED ? [nt] From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 23:27:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: GROSS and SPEWED ? [nt] From: Loaf To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 23:25:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I have heard from a few Premies... From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 22:16:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have heard from a few Premies who are disturbed by the changes... I think the fact that people are getting older brings a certain clarity... and as soon as M breaks the rhythm and tries to re-invent himself, it gives people the opportunity to re-assess. I would be interested to attend just to see how it all works.. I went to Harrogate and it was fascinating to see M's manipulations exposed and very very visible. All the uncertainty the Premies are feeling could play into his hands.. IF he plays it all corporate, with slide shows and crap and TPRF as his pride and joy.. I suspect it would be the last straw for many people who will leave in droves. If he plays it personal... 'Hi Guys.. its still me' he would re-assure them that TPRF doesnt really matter - its still master and Student and he will draw the faithful to him for reassurance. Lets hope he plays it corporate !

Subject: Re: I have heard from a few Premies... From: PatC To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf said: ''IF he plays it all corporate, with slide shows and crap and TPRF as his pride and joy.. I suspect it would be the last straw for many people who will leave in droves. If he plays it personal... 'Hi Guys.. its still me' he would re-assure them that TPRF doesnt really matter - its still master and Student and he will draw the faithful to him for reassurance. Lets hope he plays it corporate !'' Please stop giving Prem free advice. He already has used stuff from here for his spin. Let's hope he is stupid enough to value the advice of his paid PR consultants more than your sensible suggestions.

Subject: He'll hedge his bets, as usual... From: la-ex To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:22:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, here's my 2 rupees on this whole thing... 1)He'll go corporate...I thinnk that's obvious with the prem rawat foundation and leaders article... 2)He'll go 'folksy' to try and reign in a few devotes here and there...this will be done though old photos,old stories ad nauseum about the 'early days'..this cantie in the 'old and the new'... 3)'Leak' selected interviews with trusted old timers like Joan 'whitewash' Apter to little unknown publications that offer no opportunity for dialogue, debate or feedback...these 'interviews' can then be collected later in one plce as 'proof' of how evryone loves m and k, and from so many different places as well!!! 4)Keep those dollars coming in one way or another, and make it look special, new and elite if you can....a bit of secrecy spices it up too... 5)Have the ev attorneys ready at all times for brushfires to put out... 6)Stock up on the cognac and stogies...

Subject: Delete me !! Quick ! [nt] From: Loaf To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 03:27:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Livia.. I dont know if they qualify as revelations, but hopefully the picture makes sense to someone out there. Yes the entire syphon of ambition, which leads thousands of PWSK's into a cycle of social and psychological dependancy on M is apalling.. but ONLY visible from the outside it seems... its almost impossible to break out of wanting what everybody else wants without a good reason... and the only good reason people have to navigate by is personal pain... the very thing which brainwashing and practicing Knowledge surpresses. Peter knows that he was sad and lost and dependant on mahraji - he told me what it was like being residence staff. He would need to be awake before M and ready to leap into action IF called, and stay inthat state of readiness until M had gone to sleep. He said he would have a good day if M said his name, a bad day if he didnt, a good day if M smiled at him, a bad day if he was blanked, a good day if he was used, an awful day if someone else replaced him... Can you imagine the stress that years upon years of that uncertainty place upon the broken heart whilst the entire premie world watches you with envy ? One slip.. one fall from favour and there would be nobody there to help you... rather a queue of replacements focussed on their chance of 15 minutes in the sun.# Its lonely I think... especially when people are only nice to you cos you are PETER PAM LEE. I havnt seen Peter for years, as far as I know he is happy in his place in Maharaji's feifdom.. and I wouldnt want to shatter that for him because I think he needs help of a gentler kind.

Subject: Re: Hell at the feet From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 13:46:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, they are revelations - it's the first time I for one have ever heard anything of Peter Lee's real feelings. Everyone living on the rollercoaster of needing Maharaji's personal recognition for their survival should read the stuff about NPD - narcissism personality disorder, and the co-dependence that goes with it. They may recognise something there. I'll try to post the link in a minute. I mean, how could the state Peter was/is apparently living in have anything to do with conscious living, realisation or anyhing else that the practise of Knowledge or closeness to Maharaji was supposed to engender? It sounds like co-dependent masochism of the most damaging kind, and anybody trapped in it needs to get away, for their own survival, fast. No good can possibly come out of it. Actually my heart feels quite heavy today from reading what you've written, and I'm grateful to you, Loaf, for having written it, because it's supplied another piece of the puzzle for me. Really. Love, Livia

Subject: Narcissism & co-dependence From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:03:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's the link - hope it works narcissicm - malignant self-love www.geocities.com/vaksam/index.html

Subject: neglect leading to narcissism From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And here's another site I've just found, containing a lot of insight I think - plus a lot of understanding as to how so many of us might have grown up with such a need for affirmation.. voicelessness www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.htm

Subject: The Emotional Pain of Leaving a Cult From: Bai Ji To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 18:10:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Emotional Pain Of Leaving A Cult The following is how former cult members and members of spiritually abusive systems described how they felt when they finally left their group. This may give you some insight into their pain and why there are no easy answers for them. It Hurts It Hurts to discover you were deceived - that what you thought was the “one true religion,” the “path to total fredom,” or “truth” was in reality a cult. It Hurts when you learn that people you trusted implicitly - whom you were taught not to question - were “pulling the wool over your eyes” albeit unwittingly. It Hurts when you learn that those you were taught were your “enemies” were telling the truth after all - but you had been told they were liars, deceivers, repressive, satanic etc and not to listen to them. It Hurts when you know your faith in God hasn’t changed - only your trust in an organization - yet you are accused of apostasy, being a trouble maker, a “Judas”. It hurts even more when it is your family and friends making these accusations. It Hurts to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget - but how can you forget your family and friends? It Hurts to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those you love - to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk to them. It cuts deeply when you try and give your child a hug and they stand like a statue, pretending you aren’t there. It stabs like a knife when you know your spouse looks upon you as demonised and teaches your children to hate you. It Hurts to know you must start all over again. You feel you have wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious of everyone including family, friends and other former members. It Hurts when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what you were - even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused, lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. You don’t know what to do with yourself because you have so much time on your hands now - yet you still feel guilty for spending time on recreation. It Hurts when you feel as though you have lost touch with reality. You feel as though you are “floating” and wonder if you really are better off and long for the security you had in the organization and yet you know you cannot go back. It Hurts when you feel you are all alone - that no one seems to understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent. It Hurts when you have to front up to friends and family to hear their “I told you so” whether that statement is verbal or not. It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do - your confidence and self worth plummet even further. It Hurts when you realize you gave up everything for the cult - your education, career, finances, time and energy - and now have to seek employment or restart your education. How do you explain all those missing years? It Hurts because you know that even though you were deceived, you are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time ... at least that is what it seems to you - wasted time. The Pain Of Grief Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used. There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand that a person must grieve after a death etc, they find it difficult to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods, time is the healer. Some feel guilty, or wrong about this grief. They shouldn’t - It IS normal. It is NOT wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned, guilty, angry, untrusting - these are all part of the process. In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking, joy, peace, and trust. Yes - It hurts but the hurts will heal with time, patience & understanding. There is life after the cult. Copyright 1985, 1995 Jan Groenveld Email: py101663@mailbox.uq.oz.au

Subject: Actually I think it can be more painful than death From: Tonette To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:03:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This part of your post caught my attention: The Pain Of Grief Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used. It think leaving a cult can actually be worse than the death of a loved one, or betrayal by someone you loved. At least death is a normal part of life. There's support and understanding from society as a whole. Not to mention your family and friends. Betrayal by someone whom you have loved at least affords you some ability to express your feelings. You can go to that person and say, hey look, you're not my friend anymore, or lover, or brother, ect. because of what you did. This is how I'm thinking and feeling. Leaving a cult however is a different ball of wax. You're denied the access to be able to confront M. Society does not recognize by and large, how damaging cult involvement can be. You'd get more effective help, resources and understanding if you had been a drug addict or ax murderer. I, for one, would feel much relief if M would acknowledge, publically, the farse of his implied divinity. And I would grant him his apology if he then set about to quickly make restitution. He could start with you and all the other children that are some of the most badly hurt victims of his little game. But you're not ever going to get that. They'll not be a final chapter of this ruse on a level which is needed and necessary in order for the spiritual rape to heal completely. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised someday. I hope so. I used to get sad when I reflected on M, the premies, what I thought was my noble and valid spiritual path. Deeply saddened, disappointed that it just wasn't true. Then I found EPO and saw that not only was it not true (knew that) but M had twisted and turned and lied to keep as many people from coming to the conclusion that I had. And here I was just thinking that I had been naive and stupid. I had no idea that I had been raped! Boy was I ever mad! Now my anger and hurt has abated somewhat but there will always be a part of me that has a tarnish on it because of M and his cult. My involvement was no where as great as yours nor at such a young age. I can only speculate what it must be like for you. Time, distance, other experiences will help diminish the pain. I think you know that. Please take good care of yourself. Fondly, Tonette Hang in there Bai Ji.

Subject: I remember it well [nt] From: Neville To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 00:23:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Emotional Pain of Leaving a Cult From: CA To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:19:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the post Bai Ji... all very familiar feelings I've been going through and, unlike Jerry, deep down I DID buy into the bullshit for 30 years. Slowly I'm regaining my spiritual strength and in time I'm sure new horizons will appear and the healing process will be complete. Thanks again.

Subject: I didn't feel that way at all From: Jerry To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:28:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just glad I stopped kidding myself about it. Once I did, it was freedom. And freedom tastes good. Nothing about it hurts. I don't understand these people who are moping about feeling deceived. Deep down you had to know it was bullshit, that you were deceiving youself. That's what hurts. When I stopped kidding myself, the pain of it stopped too.

Subject: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Bai Ji To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry, You know what? I Honestly didn't know that this was Bullshit. I truly believed in all that Maharaji purported Himself to be. I did not question his Agya. I tried to remember Him with Every Breath. I chastised myself for Every Private thought (Lust/Longing) that wasn't attuned or directed to Him. I prepared for that moment when my Devotion had Proved itself to be such that He would accept me as his True Devotee and bring me into His Orbit. I kept my Home in readiness for a visit that may Never come. My life (dust at His Feet) was His to do with and as such, I begged Daily, and moment by moment for His Grace and indulgence to Bless me with His gaze. My Lifelong wish was that He would recognise my unswerving devotion to Him and bring me into His daily life. Whereby I would be blessed as no-one else. What a Fucking Loony !!! You know, for all of the above, I am generally considered to be quite a SANE person. I doubt my own self. I had aspirations of studying Physics and Astronomy in my early youth. My intrinsic questions of life loomed large. I had such open idealistic acceptance and I had no mechanism for filtering out anything. As so many wise souls have proposed here, I feel I may heve been set up to accept M as a Father Figure even though he was barely older than me. So Now I am becoming aware that I am 'Losing my Religion' The most shattering thing (I believe) that a person can go through. Apologies to those that are going through much worse... I have no home in my scheme of things in the world. I am jeopardising my health through all of this through self medicating. I, after being such a Gopi, have abandoned any belief in a Benevolent Universe. And How Lonely is THAT. STill, after all, I have you guys and snappy repartee, which keeps me sane and laughing. So Give me clues. I wish more PAMS would post. They really have a powerful ability to unconjoure the Myth. I Really Love You All. Bai Ji

Subject: You took a terrible fall, got really banged up! From: Tonette To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 20:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The human spirit is every bit, if not more resilent, in it's ability to heal. You may end up with a few scars, perhaps a limp, maybe a deficit you'll have to accomodate for. You have a lot left to give and learn and do. I can tell from your posts you have alot to offer. Don't give up, please. And watch it with the self medicating thing. You don't need any health problems on top of all this. I'm trying to learn a new vocation at age 45, I imagine you would be able to also. I'm sorry I sound like I am preaching. I want you to look up. I want it to be okay soon for you. As long as you keep laughing I'll not worry too much. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: taking the good stuff with you From: Livia To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Bai, The pain you're going through - like someone said below, it practically leaps through the screen. I just wish you were here so I could give you a big big hug. Bai, please don't abandon all hope in a benevolent universe - I somehow still feel in my heart of hearts that the universe is ultimately a good, benevolent place. Suppose I could be wrong, maybe I still feel it because of 30 years of being sure of it. But I haven't begun to contemplate that the universe could be a lonely and possibly hostile place.....I just can't, won't! I know some here have, and can. But I can't. I know my limitations! And I don't think that giving up a belief in Maharaji as Lord and Saviour or even good person necessitates giving up everything else too. I really don't. Someone recently said that they can somehow move on taking with them all the good stuff. One of the hooks for me with this whole thing was the resonances of what seemd to be universal truth. You only had to read a book like 'The Perennial Philosophy' by Aldous Huxley to sense that there's a deep, hidden reality behind everything that we consciously know and see. There are still enormous mysteries to life and the universe that are no more or less with or without Maharaji. There's still love, there are still miracles. There's still depth, there's still magic. There's still the possibility of stunning acts of human heroism. There's still mind-boggling intricate beauty and something close to perfection. And yes there's still the dark side, death, destruction, misery and all the rest of it but even within all that there's the possibility of love and uncommon acts of kindness. And moving away from Maharaji needn't detract from any of that. All that was there before we met Maharaji and it's all still there now. And we have each other too, all us people who went through this experience of believing that this person Maharaji could be everything to us. And thank goodness with this weird tool of cybercommunication we can share the journey with each other, daily if we want, in all its depth, pain, insight, understanding and sudden flights of utterly brilliant wit and humour. Somehow I feel that when you come out the other side of this dreadful pain you're going through giving up belief in Maharaji, you'll find that all the other stuff is still very much there, but actually enhanced and better and even more real than before. Please, Bai Ji, just hang on in there - I suspect it'll all come out OK for you, and probably a lot sooner than you think. Thinking of you lots Much love, Livia XXX PS Will email you

Subject: Brainwashed from Day One From: eb To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:29:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji, Yours is truly a unique perspective, one that makes me happy I was a bongo premie so my kids didn't have to go through 'losing their religion' as you describe. (They cracked up when they saw the LOTU video, but were angry that I took them through darshan lines and made them kiss his feet). I was raised a Mormon, a cult from which some of my siblings still suffer the emotional pain of leaving. As I've said before, Maharaji healed me from Mormonism and EPO healed me from Maharaji. It takes time, but it's worth it--living life without the filter of a cult belief system. Not that life is any easier without the crutch of religion--hell, somedays I really wish I could believe in something, anything. I agree with Cynthia about meditation right after leaving a cult--it felt too weird at first to me because I associated my very breath with Maharaji. Now I'm able to do Mindfulness Meditation without getting the 'dissociative premie experience', but it took about 3 years. eb

Subject: Re: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Thorin To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:14:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are one fantastic girl Bai Ji! The love you have is awesome, it is route to being whole again, it is the example we all take in walking again in the sunshine. Being made whole again, no more feelings of separation. Thank you. Please write much. Please be gentle with yourself, that precious flower needs growing. Love, Thorin xxx (from sunny London)

Subject: Re: Deep Down You Had To Know.... From: Jean Valjean To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 00:17:01 (PDT) Email Address: jeanvaljean2@free.fr Message: Bonjour, Bai Ji Reading your post, i feel like sending you my best thoughts. And my warm encouragements. Et des pétales de roses sur ton chemin. Jean

Subject: Merci.... From: Bai Ji To: Jean Valjean Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 23:50:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mon petit choux! XXXX

Subject: Good to see you Bai Ji From: Richard To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:44:02 (PDT) Email Address: richard@rogers-graphics.com Message: Another fabulous Live Eye report from Guruville. You were here and now there then and speak with touching authority. Thanks for reminding us of what it was like to have insatiable longing to be in That Place. And you know what? I believe you when you say: I Really Love You All. Awhile back you said you'd email me. The door is always open. :)

Subject: Re: Good to see you Bai Ji From: Bai Ji To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:20:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mahatma Ji, I thought that I had sent you a seperate post but it got lost in the ether. See my post to Dep Doon below. Love Ya!

Subject: But, Jerry, it was different for Bai Ji From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 09:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji got K when she was only a child, 13, and has lived almost her entire life, the past 30 years, in the cult. She has lost much more than just a belief system. She has lost the only friends and family she ever knew.

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 07:18:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just glad I stopped kidding myself about it. Once I did, it was freedom. And freedom tastes good. Nothing about it hurts. I don't understand these people who are moping about feeling deceived. Deep down you had to know it was bullshit, that you were deceiving youself. That's what hurts. When I stopped kidding myself, the pain of it stopped too. --- Jerry, You say, 'Deep down you had to know it was bullshit.' Well what do you mean by 'it.' Not the experience of meditation I hope. Surely the BS was the belief system surrounding the experience. The relief and relaxation and spaciousness that is the goal of meditation is priceless IMO. Just focus on that and leave the rest. Take what is of value and leave the rest. The truly wise solution is in improving myself.

Subject: Dear Dep From: Bai Ji To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:46:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please forgive interrupting the interruption to my thread. I have the utmost respect for your feelings in all of this. May I ask of you a few small things? Let me preface my questions with a small background of my sensitivities. I, from day one, NEVER questioned my Masters Instruction. As He told me that He had the Key to Enlightenment. I also had such Faith in Him that I followed his Every Direction (AGYA) To Betray this in my understanding was to go against the Word of God. Knowledge, to me was secondary. If I had the Fortune to recognise the Living Perfect Master in this life, and to Totally dedicate my life to Him, then I was THE MOST BLESSSED OF BEINGS. So, here I am , lost and alone, EVEN IN MY DARKEST HOUR, the person that I had prepared my whole life for........ HAS ABANDONED MEEEEEEEEEEE. WHAT THE ??? I'm still hurting. Yeah I know I should get over it!!! Well I'm Fucking NOT. Don't Know the reason. Yes I'm weak, BFD. Ta for all of your sympathy. I must admit, There Is still a HUGE part of me that wants M to ring me up and make it all alright. Shit knows I can sing Anastacia under the table. Bring it on X Bai ji

Subject: Re: Dear Dep From: Dep To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:31:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bai Ji, I can feel your emotion coming through my computer screen and am at a loss for words. The best I can do is ask how you will feel about this a year from now? Five years?

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:46:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, you said: The relief and relaxation and spaciousness that is the goal of meditation is priceless IMO. Just focus on that and leave the rest. Take what is of value and leave the rest. The truly wise solution is in improving myself. If the knowledge meditation is 'priceless' then why do you keep exploring other avenues? You have to admit that you've brought many new-age and old-new-age stuff here as an expression of how you are further exploring yourself and your human potential. Who told you you needed all of that? What makes you think that you, as you are now, without M's meditation or any other person's meditation or rituals, etc., is in need of improvement? That's what perplexes me about you, Dep. As you know I don't believe practicing meditation after right after exiting a meditation cult is wise or healthy. That's my opinion and I stand by it. After one has worked out the various feelings of guilt and grief and betrayal by M that some of us have, in fact, experienced as a result of Maharaji's con, then maybe, and that's a big maybe, depending upon your ego strength, meditation might be okay for relaxation and to use to feel balanced and focused. Question Deputy: did or do you still worship Maharaji as Lord? Are you willing to look at the option of improving yourself without another hook? I'm really trying to understand you and you sometimes don't answer my posts. That's obviously your choice. I guess my main point is this: we were born without Maharaji and Knowledge and all the various types of sects and religions, so I don't think we 'need' them after life in the cult. What do you say? Will you answer? Cynthia

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:03:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, You ask, 'If the knowledge meditation is 'priceless' then why do you keep exploring other avenues?' Meditation is a way to go within and there are many different techniques such as pranayama, mantra, prayer, mindfulness (vipassana), various Western therapies, and yoga. I do it because it is fun, that's all. I enjoy it. IMO it's more fun than hitting a little white ball with a stick, then walking after it, then hitting it again. (My apologies to all the golfing exes out there.) If you don't want to practice K now, fine. There are other ways to go within. If you never want practice K again, fine by me, that's your choice. You do what feels right for you. Just remember that your experience of K is yours and yours alone. When you meditate there are no cables attached to you. I never really liked all that Lord stuff and felt kind of uncomfortable with it so I stayed away from it. It just never clicked. For me the focus was always on K and my experience of K. I did my best to stay away from concepts and keep my focus on feeling. I've even been an off and on atheist for most of my life which probably explains why I'm so attracted to Theravada Buddhism. When I was in my early 20s I almost died from toxic cynicism and I wasn't really interested in anything until K came along. I agree with you Cynthia. As a proud lone ranger, I don't need sects and religions either. =)

Subject: Thanks, Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:02:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for clearing up where you stand on this. I do appreciate your response and respect your choices in life. I hope you didn't take my post to you as rude or condescending. I was simply interested in knowing how you feel about M. I'm a bit of a worry wart and don't want to see people here or anywhere feeling pain as a result of the cult. Different drummers...etc.... Thanks again, Cynthia

Subject: Chiming in uninvited... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:01:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Personally, I don't have any problem either way...if people want to keep the meditation practices they enjoy and yet want to ditch the crap -that's fine. I would say that taking responsibilty and 'control' of your life back from a guru gives you precisely that option. Remember these Yoga techniques have been done by people for ages without being packaged as some exclusive secret thing - and even if they hadn't so what? Just sort your attitude out I say. I happen to find some real value in meditation - 'post cult' if you will. Besides, if I can redeem anything good from the 28 years I've been in and around this whole thing then why shouldn't I? Having said that, I should add that for some time - maybe a year or 2 - when I was the most 'torn' with doubts about the whole thing - I found that the association of meditation with Maharaji was something that I needed to cut out completely. I believe that to stop doing it while you lose your religion about it is an important stage. It's a bit like after a divorce (not that that I've been divorced yet) but I would imagine that it would be unhealthy and unwise to zoom off looking for wifey number 2 or 3 straightaway. Maybe best to consider why you fucked up before you make the same mistake again. Anway, to be precise, the improvement that I find meditation brings, is that it's a kind of conscious rest moment - and also occasionally I get to a state of restful awareness wherein I feel very blissfully in tune with everything and liable to spout meaningful poetry. It's called getting high. If anyone here finds that distasteful that's too bad. I like anyone to argue that why I shouldn't express that opinion here either. Might I upset - or confuse- some sensitive 'exiter' into running back to the cult? I don't think so. I think exing-premies need to know that they can do this stuff and it doesn't inherently bind them to M in some way. I don't see anything wrong with that, and furthermore I don't want to be scared to enjoy these kind of things just because of the bad experience I had with one particular cult. Clearly many people who are 'exiting' the Maharaji cult might be very well advised to stop practicing meditation whilst they recover their equilibrium - but when is it OK to do it again -if that's what you want? Who's going to tell you when you're 'ready'? Cynthia? Jim? Of course not. Cynthia, you say to Dep that practicing meditation right after exiting a meditation cult is unwise and unhealthy. OK but Dep is also saying that he has the intention to leave all the invalid stuff. I would tell you the same. Are you saying he's not ready because he still has some other new-age beliefs to lose? What's the agenda here? It sounds a bit like there's a tendency for some recent 'ex-premies' to be so appalled at their experiences from being 'a premie' that they just can't imagine that anyone in their right mind could possibly 'play with this fire' without getting burnt. This reminds me...Jim, did you sit down and do that hour's meditation yet. I'm waiting! I currently believe that ex-premies who can rediscover the good side of meditation anew are liable to have a better understanding and balanced view of the cult (and hence be better armed against such things) than those who just deny that there was ever any good in it whatsoever and get all upset if people remind them that in itself it is as innocuous thing to do as anything. After one has worked out the various feelings of guilt and grief and betrayal by M that some of us have, in fact, experienced as a result of Maharaji's con, then maybe, and that's a big maybe, depending upon your ego strength, meditation might be okay for relaxation and to use to feel balanced and focused. This raises the question again as to who's job is it to say when someone's ready to start handling this stuff again? Why be scared of the big bad wolf. Look at it straight on and it isn't frightening at all.

Subject: Re: Chiming in uninvited... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:57:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I agree with you. It's been my experience that if someone is in a place where the meditation perpetuates the association with M then it's not healthy, IMO. Key phrase here is 'in my opinion.':) I don't begrudge anyone who wants to practice any kind of meditation, but I would warn anyone off seeking out new gurus or teachings (re: Nigel's post). I simply haven't been clear about what position Dep was taking on this point. He cleared it up in his post to me and I am fine with that. To answer your last paragraph: This raises the question again as to who's job is it to say when someone's ready to start handling this stuff again? Why be scared of the big bad wolf. Look at it straight on and it isn't frightening at all. I don't think that it's my job to make that judgment at all. I don't believe I have the right to tell anyone what to do or not to do, but I still have the right to point out that if someone is still grieving for M, and hasn't made the separation between the k techniques and finds themself becoming fragmented or having bad feelings, then it doesn't make sense to practice his 'teachings.' That's all, no big deal... Cynthia

Subject: precisely PatW and Cynthia From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:04:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes you guys such interesting companions is that you are all so goddamed opinionated - the exact opposite of cult-think.

Subject: Re: I didn't feel that way at all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:07:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I never got much out of meditation, so yeah, to me the 'experience' was just as much bullshit as Maharaji being a 'perfect master'. But you have to understand, that the 'experience' was supposed to be much, much more than a relaxing sensation. Knowledge was supposed to be the means of reuniting with the Creator, and Maharaji as 'perfect living master' was supposed to be the only one capable of providing such an expeience. So yeah, it was all bullshit, 'experience' and 'perfect master' alike.

Subject: Some bought into it major league ... From: cq To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jerry, your viewpoint could well be shared by a large number of people who took 'knowledge' thinking it to suspect from day 1. But there was a (smaller perhaps?) proportion of us who put our doubts/scepticism/common sense on the back burner in exchange for a chance to test whether this 'knowledge' was in fact BS or not - on a more permanent basis. At least that was the intention at the time. Some were semi-convinced, and wanting to test it further, (maybe also wanting NOT to test their semi-formed belief/projection that the Maha was 'God-in-a bod') went as far as to give it all they'd got and join an ashram (as recommended by self-same Maha/'God-in-a-bod') What kind of person does that? What kind of person shelves doubt and disbelief in the hope that maybe ... just maybe, The Kid really IS the Big G incarnate? Well, whether for noble reasons or for ultimately selfish ones, I was one of those many who did go the whole hog and buy into the Maha's world - lock stock and two (empty?) barrels. Nearly three years of my life were spent in pursuit of this ideal. Was it *my* ideal to look for God? I guess the Christian indoctrination that I'd been subjected to in my youth (no doubt by those who thought such indoctrination to be 'in my best interests') made it seem that to deny that the Maha COULD possibly be of divine origin would itself be a sin. Maybe my young mind had been too well sown with aspirations of expectation of divinity incarnate. THAT's where this Hindu guru caught many of us early premies. In the trap of thinking that - as we were taught - if God COULD manifest in the form a second coming, then why couldn't that second coming be in the form that would challenge the most basic of our Westernised prejudices - namely the prejudice that God incarnate must come in a form that we would accept. And in the predominantly racist atmosphere of Britain of the 1970s, the fact that Maharaji was Indian of all things, was indeed a challenge to one of our more notorious national prejudices. Tonight I got an email from someone who posts here occasionally. My reply was spontaneous and off the cuff, but reading it back, it seemed to encapsulate something that I've never yet shared here on the forum. For that reason, I'll include it here, and it reads: Lately I've been thinking - could our collective experience of falling at the Maha's floral footsies have resulted in a large number of us being totally anti-religion? I guess when we project our aspirations of divinity onto another human being who could never live up to being the personification of God (and let's face it - NO human should ever be put on that kind of pedestal) then disillusion is the least of the consequenses we suffer. Some might even define the Maha's game (though he's not by any means the only one playing it) as 'spiritual abuse'. That's spiritual as opposed to mental/physical/psychological, though I know those kinds of abuse also went on (possibly still do) within M's world. If ever there was a diabolical plan to ensnare people by appealing to their religious/spiritual aspirations, then spit them out as die-hard atheists, then the Maha's got it down to a T. It's simply a matter of time. But to believe that, you've got to believe in both a God and a Devil. Maybe we're better off not buying into that whole trip any more. As long as the best things in life can still move us deeply. That's what really matters, for me anyway. I must admit, I don't like the 'victim mentality' that so often seems to go with antagonism to the Maha, as expressed on the Forum. But I also don't like the fact that there are some decent honest, though decidedly innocent (if not gormless/stupid) individuals who are STILL on the slippery slope towards wasting large portions of their lives in pursuit of a goal that can only end in disillusion - for themselves that is, though never for the Goo. I could go on. But it's Friday night, it's a Bank Holiday bonus weekend, the sun is shining, and the pub by the river is calling me.

Subject: I could never get into arti From: Jerry To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 14:19:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember when I was an aspirant, you had to leave satsang before they sang arti. Then, after I received K, I got to stick around for the ceremony. First we sang it after the K session, with little if any enthusiasm. It was weird. Then, that night I got to see the pros in action for the first time, premies who had been singing it for years. REALLY fucking weird, with that tray of candles swirling around, people clapping, swaying, jumping! Too fucking much man! It was the last time I stayed after satsang. The way I figured it was there was no reason for me to stick around praising Maharaji as the Lord if I hadn't had the 'experience' that would give me reason to believe such a thing. Maharaji said so himself, 'first experience, then believe'. So I stuck with it certain that one day I would have that experience, that I'd awaken and realize God. That's right all you lame ass premies who think such an idea is antiquated. That's why we were in it and that's why Maharaji encouraged us to be in it. Anyway, I wasn't a fly by night like you seem to think, Chris. I gave it what I had for 18 years.

Subject: Andrea E. can really swing that tray From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 18:04:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean its just so very beautiful to be in That Place singing arti to you know who, especially watching how synchronized Andrea Ericksons is when her hips move with the music. My feelings are strictly platonic mind you but it really gives me a great Experience way down deep within inside just watching her obvious devotion expressed with every muscle in her divine body. Andrea really knows how to swing it for the Speaker and I love it. Oh yeah! Dickie Pwickie, A complete and total PWK since 1972

Subject: Oh, Dickie... From: Andrea E. To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 01:21:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're SUCH a DEAR! I'm just SO glad to see that at least there is SOMEONE here who ISN'T filtering out the good! -) :P :D These horrible ex-students just refuse to remember how fun it all was, and instead just indulge themselves with fake repressed memories of how bad it supposedly was. If they only had just destroyed all the old videos and magazines like they had been asked to, and syncronized their memories to match the Master's new and improved version of the past, they wouldn't be such miserable sods now. The Master could have made it all nice for them, but they wouldn't LET Him. And then they have the nerve to blame Him! :| I've decided not to post here as much anymore, because of the diabolical sub-liminal brainwashing and reprogramming going on in their posts. It really is dangersous, and as unhealthy as asbestos, there should be a law against it. How perceptive of you, Dickie, to call me "Andrea E." in the heading of your post. That is how I'm going to refer to myself here from now on. You see, I've decided to not mention my last name here anymore, because I'm AFRAID of the EX-PREMIE CULT. :o Andrea E. :), Who thinks the ABUSE that happens here is just too much - ex-students asking all sorts of QUESTIONS, it's just TOO CRUEL. Well, ok, so maybe they haven't asked ME a lot of questions (because my Satsang is so powerful, it often can't be argued with), but there is always the THREAT of a question. And that's just as bad! :|

Subject: Re: Andrea E. can really swing that tray From: Cynthia To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:53:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I have two sides to the arti story. You see, I really loved it when I got to swing that arti candle because it also meant I got to spoon out the foot water after everyone pranamed. Oh happy Day! I noticed guys and chicks swinging their butts to beat the band though probably out of sexual frustration. Nothing wrong with that, I watched...:) The whole ashram discipline was bizarre. On the other hand, I hated the length of that song and I didn't know the Hindu words because I think I have a Hindu language block. I just don't jive with that particular language. Arti seemed like it would never end especially at night. Being a self-conscious church lady back then I would never have swung my butt while doing the candle gig, just out of respect for the ghee candle, not to mention GMJ. I was such a gullible gopi when I lived in the ashram I was SHOCKED when I found out some of my fellow ashramers smoked cigarettes. I was a goner. Somehow I made it out... The dancing styles of the arti tray swingers is a humourous memory. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I used to get all emotional at arti From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:50:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh dear, I used to get all emotional at arti. I used to gaze at his picture and sing the first bit 'you are my mother' and all that, with tears running down my face. And then the long bit - we learnt the Sanskrit words 'jai guru deva Maharaj Ji, vina nahita kari' and on and on it went. I think I learnt the whole thing in Sanskrit at one time. I used to like the English words too - to me they seemed like eternal wisdom and I loved it. Even learnt how to swing that old arti tray. It all seems so long ago now. I still think the intention was kind of sweet at the time. I meant it anyway and I think we all did, or most of us. Love, Livia in a slightly wistful mood

Subject: Re: I used to get all emotional at arti From: Bai Ji To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:22:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearest Livia, Arti was the epitomie of all my Longing. I also used to weep throughout. As recently as 4 months ago I sang it with a Premie friend of mine in my loungeroom, reduced to tears of separation. I even went through the motions of tray swinging and imagining Him sitting there in front of me. I must admit it was the last gasp of desparation as I had been reading F7 sporadically by then. If you are really a glutton for punishment, I shall send you the lyrics to a song I wrote for Him on His birthday. Lotsa Love to you, Keep up the Heroic writing. Love Bai Ji XXX

Subject: Good old Dep Dog... From: PJ To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:26:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're one of the few who talks any sense at all around here these days.

Subject: Dep Dog and you could start From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:41:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a New Age forum for spiritual exes. There are probably more of them than us old atheist curmudgeons. You would be doing a service.

Subject: I don't know, Pat, if... From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:36:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're being serious here or ribald. I like your posts too. I find it very amusing how you often try to faintly excuse yourself for meditating. You seem to find a great fount of love thereby, which you are at pains often to slightly downplay, to avoid besmirching your atheist credentials. For myself, I find meditation to be exactly that - an entry to an inexhaustible supply of love. I don't, however, in the slightest feel that this is at variance with having a very sound and practical approach to life. Sense and inspiration should be blended together in harmony - don't you agree? I don't think you're an atheist at all, Pat (and suspect you, too, know this). It's just how you've previously defined God. To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. Love blends perfectly with good sense. I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this? Thank you for all your often beautiful postings. With best wishes.

Subject: Re: I don't know, Pat, if... From: PatD To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 17:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. You're off on a frolic,whoever you are.For myself I find that since stopping meditation(because of its association with a lying gobshite)my relationships with my loved ones have improved no end. I no longer have to try & put a brave face on my irritation when someone interrupts my communion with the inner god,because I don't commune any more. And funnily enough,once the initial shock of realising I'd been suckered wore off,I felt exactly the same 'within inside' as I'd felt whilst wasting my time trying to turn myself into a blissful goon. Whatever love may be,a fascinating question down the ages & one still unanswered,I now know through bitter experience that the notion it can be tapped into like an oil well is bullshit. What's this 'pure' shit? Two words for you pal,the 2nd one is 'off'. Please don't take offence,but then you wouldn't anyway would you,seeing as how you're plugged into the all compassionate.Just look down on scumbags like me & smile that enigmatic smile of enlightenment. ps. what's your opinion on the little fat bastard meditation teacher who used to call himself Perfect Master/Satguru/Lord of the Universe? I've forgotten his name.

Subject: Love is the source of all? From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:12:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last time I looked, love was an emotion. How does an emotion become the source of all? Or is this also undefineable? :)

Subject: Energy and love are one! From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 18:57:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Proverbs 16:32, John 4:24, etc. etc.)

Subject: Amen brother. The sun loves me! From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:36:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast days, or it happens to be night and I'm needing a dose of love, I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet.

Subject: To Tolette From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 19:27:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast days, or it happens to be night and I'm needing a dose of love, I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet. --- I don't see what these comments have to do with the Bible quotes.

Subject: I was not responding to the bible quotes From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 01:15:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My comments were in responce to the heading on your post, 'Energy and love are one.' But since you brought it up, can you explain how your statement, energy and love are one, relates to the bible quotes? Or just explain your thinking, 'energy and love are one.' Tonette

Subject: You could make money out of that From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:50:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If Aken-aten could make a decent living out of a sun-worship cult maybe you could start a ''stick a knife in a plug'' cult.

Subject: Think so? If I was gonna start a cult here's how, From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you definately have to use the God is energy angle or any variation thereof. However, I think my skills would be far more valuable if I let's say, opened up one's third eye permanently. Yes, a 4mm burr hole smack dab in the middle of the forehead. The highest chakra uninhibited, flowing from and with the energy that surrounds us. A fancy initiation cermony, with lots of local anesthesia. Oh and you could only be chosen if you had adopted a certain prepardness. Like having to grow bangs as a sign. Gotta hide that hole in your head someway, otherwise someone might call the authorities on me. But lucrative it could be. Neurosurgeons charge big bugs for a little drill work. But since I would be the realized one, I could charge double! This could work. Interested in a little side work, Pat? We could skip the burr hole but you would definately need bangs and a robe. Tonette

Subject: Re: Trepanning From: Livia To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:32:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's got a name, hasn't it - trepanning? People really do this! I read a whole book about it once, I think it was by Colin Wilson. Although I think the hole is at the back of the head - probably cosmetically better that way - no need to grow the bangs then if bangs don't suit you. Love, Livia

Subject: You're right, trephining From: Tonette To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:22:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the oldest surgical procedures on the books. How old? I would have to look that up but goes way back. Way before Christ. Actually the first trephinings were done at the top of the head. To let out evil spirits, to relieve agitation, to cure insanity. The interesting thing about trephining is that it's making a comeback! There's a sub culture that belives it is a good method to use for curing depression and a smaller subculture that actually believes it gives spiritual power. I'm not making this up! The hole was/is never drilled at the back of the head. Cerebral spinal fluid would leak out and the Cerebullum is there, the root of our brain that contols hearthbeat and breathing. So bangs are not an option I'm afraid. And we're talking location, location, location with my new cult! Gotta go for the third eye. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Amen brother. The sun loves me! From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 23:36:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh happy day. All I've got to do is bask in the ultraviolet rays from the largest energy source sustaining this Earth and I will have, find, feel love! And for those dark, cloudy, overcast moments I'll just stick a kitchen knife into the nearest electrical outlet.

Subject: Oh, great, Dog's bible thumping now From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:52:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you're going to cite the bible you might as well be courteous enough to quote it rather than send us fetching for these bones of wisdom. That's your job, dog: Proverbs 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. So what was your point? How does any of this religious tripe speak to the issue?

Subject: Welcome, PJ. I was being serious From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:45:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last time I was talking to Jim on the phone I said to him: ''You do realize that New Ajism is now mainstream. It's in all the women's magazines. We're outnumbered. It's practically a lost cause.'' Atheism is still a dirty word in the USA. Nearly everyone believes in god. The more educated may no longer subscribe to a mainstrean religion but they, like you, believe stuff like ''God is pure love.'' I simply call all non-mainstream religons ''New Ajism'' and there are far more theists than atheists including among exes. So I was serious when I suggested a New Age Forum as I don't have the time or inclination to discuss god anymore. You said: ''I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this?'' No, PJ, I am not talking about belief systems - by which I think you mean religion as opposed to gnosticism such as K. I honestly don't ''believe'' in Santa or god anymore and I don't care if there is a god or not. It is irrelevant. I may have once believed that love was the source of all - but that's all that was - just another belief system. Love, well, that's the topic of a whole nother essay which I don't have the time to write now but suffice it to say that, eventhough it may only be a biological phenomenon necessary to life as a human being, it is what sets human apart from animals and is therefore to be treasured. I look forward to discussing this with you once I have more time. Does PJ stand for Premie Ji?

Subject: Thanks Pat C for.. From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 07:14:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: totally ruining my meditation.:-) I was just beginning when a great Light hit me right between the eyes.. You're always pontificating against New Ajism, somewhat like a dog scratching permanently against a post, trying to rid itself of a worrying tick. Quite disturbing really... I've also watched you, in recent weeks, gushing out 'love' fulsomely by the barrel-load everywhere in sight, sometimes, it seems, to people you've never met in real life, and who maybe appear here as desirable projections of their possibly quite different personalities. Conversely, I've seen you trample people quite mercilessly (I'm excluding the more obviously psychotic), sometimes because they have said something quite innocuous, and just don't fit into your notions of conceived great and good. This to me seems to be quite the whole essence of New Ajism, an unreal, inflated adulation for one's own group, while raising a metaphorical dog's leg to the rest. Quite strange really... Real love is caring for others despite their perceived faults, because you share a common humanity and life spirit. That isn't New Ajism but quite Old Ajism. Cynthia - Greetings, I don't really want to get into who I am, because I don't intend to post here much. I just said that to Pat C above because it had been screaming out at me for some weeks. He most definitely has his good side. Thanks for posting that great poem by Ferlinghetti the other week. I've always liked his work, and took that post as an excuse to go out and get totally inspirationally pissed.. I've got a two page hand-written letter from him, signed Lawrence. (Treasured possession). Dog - Go get 'em boy. Your posts are always uplifting, and dispel the gloom which sometimes accumulates here. Regards to all.

Subject: PJ, you're not the first premie From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 11:13:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ......who has tried to psycho-analyse me on the forums. I know I am an absolute cipher to premies. They can tell that I am a friendly and fairly loving person but they can't understand why it is that I have no tolerance for their religion or their deceitful mental gymnastics. You said: ''I've also watched you, in recent weeks, gushing out 'love' fulsomely by the barrel-load everywhere in sight, sometimes, it seems, to people you've never met in real life, and who maybe appear here as desirable projections of their possibly quite different personalities.'' I take people at face value but I also have no tolerance for insincerity, game-playing and deception. I see that Catweasel is boasting on other forums that he is posting on F7 inspite of being blocked and hinted that he is posting as PJ. Care to comment? You: ''Real love is caring for others despite their perceived faults, because you share a common humanity and life spirit.'' That is pure New Age relativism. I will love someone inspite of their faults if those faults are not truly misanthropic or dysfunctional. I will also criticise my loved ones' faults because I do care for them. Love does not mean tolerating faults. Well, perhaps guru-worship means tolerating faults. You say love is not New Ajism but Old Ajism. I agree but what category does devotional love for Prem fall into? Guru-worship is not part of the Old Age western religious tradition. It is pure Hinduism. When a primitive prescientific religion like gurujism is espoused by westerners - that's New Ajism.

Subject: PJ sounds fake to me... From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:27:08 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Pat C. That was quite brilliant, young man. I very much agree with what you've said and would like to add my twopence. I think it is unrealistic to have 'unconditional love'(except with pets), there have to be boundaries and limits or you risk harming your self respect. Self respect is important to me, as is living free from denial. My intuition tells me that PJ is a fake. Probably that awful Roupell chap or one of his comrades. I read in one post a few weeks back where Roupell claims being several forum regulars, including me! What a laugh! I'm sure Roupell would prefer to be me if he could, but fortunately I am me and he is he(idiot). Bye, Marshall

Subject: General Denial From: PJ To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:47:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I'm not David Roupell, nor Catweasel, but I'd be interested to see the reference where the latter claims to be me. PJ are the initials of my name. I don't feel like going into any further details at the moment, as it gives some people the opportunity to immediately shower you with their own preconceptions and use you as a football. If I post more, I'll do it gradually, and about specific issues. Cheerio. (World Cup fever...)

Subject: Re: General Duh From: Marshall To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Oh uh OK, well if you say so PJ, that's good enough for me. The reasons I had for doubting your honesty was the timing of your sudden and unannounced arrival here co-inciding with several boasts by Roupell and Catweasel of 'infiltrating' F7 with 'new, secret I.D.'s. You've got to be able to see the obvious conclusion one could make there? No? What do you expect anyway with your attitude? A red carpet?

Subject: I'm willing to wait re: PJ... From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 14:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, How are you? I was so shocked to learn you were given k at age 7 that I couldn't reply at the time. I simply did not know what to say. I think that fact alone gives you license to call Pat a young man.:) I don't know anything about PJ because I just noticed the appearance, that's why I asked PJ directly. Truth be told, I didn't even get the premie ji reference. I know folks who have those initials for names. We shall see...(sigh...) The weather is wonderful here! Warm, sunny and no humidity--this crisp New England air is intoxicating. Hummingbirds are back and one 8 oz. feeder attracts dozens all day. I've got to get another. Be well, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hello, Cynthia.. From: PJ To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:36:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just trying to recover from being confused with both Catweasel and David Roupell. That's good going after just posting a couple of times. I've been following this forum for a couple of months, with great interest. The only thing I don't like about it is the strident polarization that takes place. It seems to me it would work better if it was a place where anyone could come and state their views, without running the immediate risk of being incinerated. I see it really as a continuation of the company of truth of old days (in a secular sense, of course). Life is a continuous unfolding of truth, and it would be good if this could continue in the same company as in the past. Various posters here are old friends of mine.. I left a message for you in my last post to PatC - entitled Thanks Pat C for... His reply is below mine in the ladder. I'm sorry that the face shown in mine is the one with diagonal black eyebrows. I can't quite figure it's meaning, but it looks a bit menacing. I've never done an emoticon, and intended the smiling yellow face.

Subject: strident polarization... From: Cynthia To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:08:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PJ, If you've only been reading for a couple of months then you don't really have much background for making judgments. Frequently when new posters come here they have a complaint about the forum. Complaints of all sorts. You have to understand that many exes here have been talking to eachother for quite some time, some know eachother outside of the computer machine and by phone. Some have formed friendships through talking to eachother here for a long time. There's no specific premise here except that Guru Maharaji Ji/Maharaj Ji/Maharaji/Prem Pal is a fraudulent conman dressed up as many things. That's the premise here right from the get-go. You can argue points but expect to be refuted because of this main premise: Ex-Premies. I'm not sure what your phrase 'strident polarization' means in the context of your newness here. Think of it as a room that's inhabited by many people who have exited the Maharajism cult. Everyone is in their own stage of recovery. There are many different types of folks here. There are intelligent, demanding discussions which require the exercise of the mind. Most new people introduce themselves in some way in order to let us understand where their coming from. Given the number of ugly trolls like the Doc (Roupell) and Catweasel and many incarnations of their warped imaginations, I just think you're too quick to judge the reception committee here. Besides, you never said anything about yourself you just hopped in. Can't you at least say when you received K? Think of this: if you walk into a local bar knowing it must have regulars, all of them do, sit down, listen to their conversations for a couple of months, then all of a sudden start talking about how much is wrong with them, well, you'll probably be tossed or ostracized. At the very least asked questions about yourself. This isn't a bar, it's much, much more than that. Frankly, I don't see why ex-premies or premies would come to an cult-awareness site such as EPO (btw, have you read it?) then to the forum, where people are working out the mindfuck of goomraji, and expect discussions about other 'paths to truths.' Especially because if you go to Google, type in ''teachings'' you'll get 1,150,000 possible hits on any guru, meditation lessons, and new age stuff (that's not including the links you find within those 1,150,000 teachings). Enough searching for a lifetime! Don't disrespect the people here please, PJ. And, if you'd like to know about emoticons, click on the Symposium link above and you'll find on that forum page another link to using emoticons. Just take it easy. Get a feel for the place, if it's not for you, then it's not for you.:) Regards, Cynthia

Subject: Who're you calling ''young man?'' From: PatC To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm old enough to be your father. Even if he isn't a fake, he's a phony. Well, to me all that spiritual crap is espoused by phony people. Also I've never understood people who suddenly appear and begin posting anonymously without at least telling us a bit about themselves first.

Subject: true true From: Marshall To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 13:47:42 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Good point, my father is 55. Yeah man, I agree all that 'spiritual crap' has got to go. What is wrong with these people? Low self-esteem? That's what I think. I bet PJ is long gone.

Subject: Re: Welcome, PJ. I was being serious From: PJ To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:54:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does PJ stand for Premie Ji? Don't be corny

Subject: Good old PJ. Excellent post! From: Dep To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 13:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're being serious here or ribald. I like your posts too. I find it very amusing how you often try to faintly excuse yourself for meditating. You seem to find a great fount of love thereby, which you are at pains often to slightly downplay, to avoid besmirching your atheist credentials. For myself, I find meditation to be exactly that - an entry to an inexhaustible supply of love. I don't, however, in the slightest feel that this is at variance with having a very sound and practical approach to life. Sense and inspiration should be blended together in harmony - don't you agree? I don't think you're an atheist at all, Pat (and suspect you, too, know this). It's just how you've previously defined God. To me, God is pure love, which I find in meditation. Love blends perfectly with good sense. I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. Why don't you just come out and say it - you believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist. Do you want to say something about this? Thank you for all your often beautiful postings. With best wishes. --- PJ, I totally agree with your take on Pat. Very insightful. Right on! 'I think with your 'atheism' you're really talking belief systems. You believe love is the source of all, and that's why you love meditation. That doesn't make you an atheist.' Jeez, I wish I'd said that. Keep em coming PJ! =)

Subject: In shock... From: PJ To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 03:53:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Dog, I hope you're still speaking. In the first couple of hours of posting here, I have been accused of being both David Roupell and Catweasel. Hmm. Can I sue for libel? PJ are the initials of my name.

Subject: Re: In shock... From: PatC To: PJ Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:08:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PJ, at the time CW dropped his hint, Chuck said to me that he could just be trying to make us suspicious of you. If you've been reading the forum for a while, then you will have seen what the cultheads like Roupell/CW et al do in order to sow distrust and disrupt the forum. The other thing that made me leery of you is your smart-arse remarks and sassy tone of voice. I made the same mistake when I first started posting and got in trouble too. Try landing your plane at a less steep angle. :C)

Subject: The source of it all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:42:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if it's possible to know such a thing as the 'source of it all'. Now mind you, I think I know what you're talking about, because I've had my moments of wholeness where I felt in touch with the 'source of it all' myself. But from a scientific perspective, just because we feel with our human consciousness that we've touched the source, or vice versa, does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Do you understand what I'm driving at? Is the 'source of it all' really that, or is it just a modern day pagan in our minds? In other words, are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder.

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:24:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The trouble is, it can't be proved. If those 'mystical' moments, whatever they are, inspire us to live with more integity, kindness, love, tolerance etc etc then they're probably a good thing, that's what I think! And if they don't have any effect on our character whatsoever then they are altered mental states and probably not much else. I've read stories of people who have come back from near death experiences and have been transformed by them in a very positive way, and I find those stories very interesting, even inspirational. The relevance, importance and desirability of all these experiences of altered consciousness must hinge on the effect they leave on you. Otherwise what's the point of people reading such significance into them? Livia

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:57:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if it's possible to know such a thing as the 'source of it all'. Now mind you, I think I know what you're talking about, because I've had my moments of wholeness where I felt in touch with the 'source of it all' myself. But from a scientific perspective, just because we feel with our human consciousness that we've touched the source, or vice versa, does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Do you understand what I'm driving at? Is the 'source of it all' really that, or is it just a modern day pagan in our minds? In other words, are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder. --- When we feel we've touched the source does that mean we actually have, or do we just think that way? Are we reading it right what we experience in mystical moments? I wonder. Ram Dass - who has been villified on this site - uses the term intuitive validity to describe the feeling of being at source. Gut feelings and hunches are by nature subjective. You are not just kidding yourself you just know. Ever had one of those? Hard to explain that scientifically. Kids have it and dogs have it. But many of us get so cluttered and entrained with our self talk that our intuition gets clouded over or drowned out. Remember that scene in Star Wars when Luke was told to turn off the automatic weapons system and trust the Force. Many athletes say they perform at their best when they trust their intuition. They just know where the ball is going to be. Many inventors say ideas just come to them in dreams, and many songwriters like Paul McCartney say that they don't write songs they just transcribe them. The song already existed, they just wote it down. I say if we have sufficient facts and we have a hunch to go along with it, we are reading it right. We need reason and intuition, not just reason alone.

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:33:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's all fine Dep, but do you have to read such definitive, 'spiritual' meanings and interpretations into all this? Sportsman call it 'the zone'. Artists, musicians, writers, most creative people have found they can access inspiration better when then they are in a certain state - some people refer to it as the working of the right hand side of the brain. I don't think anyone here would have any problem with acknowledging that extraordinary things can happen when you are in the zone, or operating from the right hand side of your brain or whatever you want to call it. Extraorinary things obviously do happen. But why do some people have the need or inclination to categorise the experience? It's something wonderful that can happen, and it's probably a good thing if it happens to you a lot, particularly if you can act on it to the good. But why the need to put it into a box labelled 'spiritual' or whtaever? Livia

Subject: Re: The source of it all From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:54:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, Athletes, musicians, even inventors are all highly trained specialists in their fields. They didn't just develop those skills overnight through intuition, but for those who have had years of training in specific areas, I agree, sometimes thinking about it too much can just get in the way of performance. After all, it's already ingrained in your subconscious as a result of years of training, which I believe is what your gut feelings are about. It's instinct. Just go with that. I agree. Get out of your own way as they say. But mysticism, the sense that your in the presense of the 'source'? That's something different. Yes, it's an intuitive feeling, but it bears closer examination than these other intuitions. I can't help but think if I'm on the right track, or not, in believing I've been touched by God. Something (call it intuiton?) tells me there's something more at play than just what it feels like. But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if I never get to the bottom of it. It just fades into mystery. Maybe that's all it can ever be.

Subject: Yoda, you're not, after all From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're really Jar Jar Binks, aren't you? Silly, irrational and non-responsive. What about Socrates, by the way?

Subject: Don Rickles, you're not, after all [nt] From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:44:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh Puleeze, Pat... From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 11:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A new age forum? Now you've got me laughing. You're being silly, of course, right?;)

Subject: No, I think he was being serious From: Tonette To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:39:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat was talking about helping someone set up and have them, the volunteer(s) act as FA of a 'spiritual ex' forum. I thought Janet was interested perhaps. I know Deputy Dog thought it was a good idea. A place where unspiritual oafs like myself would avoid since I can't possibly imagine what I would have to say there. A thread like the one down below with referance to the book 'Be Here Now,' could flourish in all it's splendor with narry a discouraging word. We're talking the sharing of homeopathic remedies to potentiate meditation experiences and accu pressure point identification in order to enhance your oneness. The possibilities are endless for a forum like this. It could spawn a few budding new Guru's. Never know. Wierder things have happened. Take care. I sent you an email, BTW. Love, Tonette

Subject: Exactly, Tonette. I was serious From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 11:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know from the email I get from exes that there are more ''spiritual'' exes than us heathens and they may need a forum. Right now they talk on RE and by email to each other. Eventhough I have no sympathy for that sort of stuff anymore, I know that a lot of exes would like to talk about astrology, shamanism and use words like centering, grounding, finding one's heart etc etc. And some would like to channel Mary Jane. But it seems that only Janet was interested and she's a smarty who knows how to set up a forum by herself. I'll help if needed and I'll stay away from it too. I prefer using plain English.

Subject: You serious? From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:31:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're one of the few who talks any sense at all around here these days. --- What do you mean?

Subject: Sorry to miss you out... From: PJ To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:05:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim. I see you and Dog like Ivan Skavinsky Skivar and Abul Bul Amir, locked in permanent whirling combat til you merge together. I'm glad that Dog usually comes out a little ahead, however, as he embodies some indefinably more humanitarian principle than you. That's not to say I don't like your contributions - indeed, they're one of the reasons I end up here day after day when I should rightly be enmeshed in other projects. They're often brilliant, and I've had many excellent laughs and insights - thanks. It's just that you're a bit - cruel?? And that's why Deputy Dog has more sense than you. With best wishes, however.

Subject: Re: Sorry to miss you out... From: Livia To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:00:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to be contentious after my wistful outbreak above, but what do you mean by humanitarian? To be quite honest, I've never found New Ageism to be particularly humanitarian per se - it just likes to think it is, that's all. I think people are either humanitarian by nature, or not. New Ageism doesn't seem to make them so if they aren't already. In fact, to be quite honest, I've met more insufferably pompous, arrogant, self-important, deluded people amonst the New Age fraternity than in any other social group I've ever encountered. Including premies. Behind their soft voices and sweet smiles often lurks spiritual one-upmanship of a particularly loathsome order. Humanitarian? Hmmmmm......narcissitic maybe.... Livia

Subject: Re: Sorry to miss you out... From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 02:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia re 'New Age fraternity' Behind their soft voices and sweet smiles often lurks spiritual one-upmanship of a particularly loathsome order. LOL :) You really cut to the chase Livia, brilliant, no fence-sitting here, no hedging of bets - just a full on opinion. Keep em coming. No disagreement from me BTW. Would love to discuss with you, offline, your views of the UK political landscape some time. That would be interesting! Back with full powers I see - hope you are well? Love, Thorin ps Did Postman Pat arrive ok? Chat soon eh? I am away Sunday lunch to Monday pm late.

Subject: Ouch! Nice one, Livia. [nt] From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:31:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Uh, okay (?) From: Jim To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:15:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim. I see you and Dog like Ivan Skavinsky Skivar and Abul Bul Amir, locked in permanent whirling combat til you merge together. I'm glad that Dog usually comes out a little ahead, however, as he embodies some indefinably more humanitarian principle than you. That's not to say I don't like your contributions - indeed, they're one of the reasons I end up here day after day when I should rightly be enmeshed in other projects. They're often brilliant, and I've had many excellent laughs and insights - thanks. It's just that you're a bit - cruel?? And that's why Deputy Dog has more sense than you. With best wishes, however. --- Let me guess. That 'indefinably more humanitarian principle' is a little hard to talk about, right? But you know what you're talking about nonetheless? Yeah, thought so. By the way, what did the little kid call his older brother when he told him there really was no Santa Claus? That's right. He called him 'cruel'. What do you believe in anyway?

Subject: PJ, are you new here? From: Cynthia To: PJ Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:14:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PJ, I've never seen your PJ handle before so I'm just wondering who you are. Would you care to tell us more about yourself? Cynthia

Subject: Re: PJ, are you new here? From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:32:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think PJ doesn't post too often, but he/she has given some honest feedback. Surely that's the criterion of judgement here? (and don't go listening to those idiots who have bought into concept that 'judgement is, because M says so, a bad thing') Let's face it - this Forum *should* (if I can use that tremendously fascistic word ... thinks - tremendously means what?) anyway, this Forum *should* be about people - of all shapes, sizes and affiliations - telling it how it is/seems to them. Shouldn't it? If this public conduit of popular opinion ever becomes a Forum where the people who challenge the 'popular' opinion of its regular posters are consequently censored as being unacceptable, then that's the day that I ... oh shit .. you mean it's 'us and them'? ooops, signed, sealed, delivered, ... pissed on a Bank Holiday weekend ... Chris

Subject: Re: PJ, are you new here? From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:42:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's fine with me. I just never notice a PJ posting until recently:) No problem, just was wondering... Cynthia

Subject: What are you talking about? From: Jim To: cq Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:41:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you talking about, Chris? How is asking someone their opinion 'censorship'? What are you drinking, by the way?

Subject: My opinions are valid too... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:47:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I'm getting a little bit tired of not being able to have an opinion here just because I've been a 'regular' here for some time, you? In my most humblest opinion, PJ recently appeared here and I know nothing about this individual. That's why I was asking. Do you know anything about PJ? As for Dep, well, if he would answer my posts, I could have some real dialogue. Maybe:) Love, Cynth

Subject: Opinions From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, I'm not sure what you appear to be upset about, but your posts are always readable, and I find myself agreeing with most of what you say, and not seriously disagreeing with anything. I agree PJ should introduce him/herself a little, rather than just stepping in to the Dep/Jim argument, but as always, I'll give him/her the benefit of the doubt. BTW, Dep conceded to me that he has no evidence that his experiences in meditation are anything more than subjective feelings. I suspect he doesn't believe this, but he had no argument to support what he really does believe. But I want to talk about opinions. Sometimes I've noticed people saying they're entitled to their opinions. Well, of course they are. But opinions are worth far more if they are backed up by sound research and reasoning. I think sometimes people use their right to have an opinion as an excuse not to do the research, or to use their ability to reason. I'm certainly not saying you are doing this here, but it's just that the title of your post reminded me of this. All the best, John.

Subject: Re: Opinions From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:18:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, IMO opinions necessarily take place at the mind or verbal level. Someone has a more convincing or plausable story than someone else, so we go believe them. As you say, 'opinions are worth far more if they are backed up by sound research and reasoning.' But how do you prove something that has no words (meditation) or that is difficult to put into words (music). I guess there will always be people that don't believe in words and symbols. The words 'glass of water' do not quench thirst. Imagine that you had an incredibly powerful sexual experience with your lady, and had to come up with reasons and an argument to prove that it. Could you do it? Would you want to? IMO it's all subjective really. One guy goes to sleep in a traffic jam; while another guy goes into a rage and rips the steering wheel off his car. Isn't it the same traffic jam for both?

Subject: Re: Opinions From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:38:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I think you need to look to your use of the word 'lady'. Really. Call me narrow-minded but to me men who use the word 'lady' instead of 'woman' are in serious danger of being stuck in some kind of (dodgy) hippy time warp. Think about it. Please. Livia (she's no lady)

Subject: Re: Opinions - Livia From: Dep =) To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, You are absolutely right. Such term as 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' are definitely passé. Old fashioned guys like me need a reminder now and then. Thanks! But don't you think 'girlfriend' is a bit much for people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s? 'Spouse' sounds weird too, don't you think. Some people don't even like it when you use 'woman.' For example 'My woman and I went downtown yesterday.' Instead of 'lady' I should have used - partner, or - significant other. How about these substitutes for 'lady' - sexual associate - copulation colleague - conjugal teamate - female companion - oppositely gendered collaborator (Don't you just love the sterile, corporate tone to the last one?)

Subject: new terminology for a new world From: Livia To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:39:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, glad you agree with me on that one. But yes, I agree with you that girlfriend sounds a bit young for a woman in her 50's. The trouble is, no new word has arisen for what is, after all, a relatively new phenomenon, when you think about it. People in their 40's and 50's in shifting relationships, I mean. A new word is probably needed, but nothing has come up that really works. I mean, oppositely gendered collaborator - did you just make that up??!! Partner's about the only one that sounds OKish, and even that sticks in the throat a bit, for want of a better turn of phrase, ahem. How about sexual co-conspirator?

Subject: You don't know how to use your mind From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 19:55:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's almost painful watching, Dog. But I guess this is the price of being spiritual these days. You have to settle down to the level of a dullard.

Subject: Further Clarification Re: Opinions From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 15:24:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just reread my post, and I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough. What I want to say is that I don't think there is ever a need to use the 'right' to have an opinion as a reason for saying something. If we have something to say, we can simply say it, giving our reasons for doing so. It seems to me that by saying this is my opinion, we are cheapening our efforts to establish the truth in the matter. Just my opinion. John.

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:19:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've too just reread my post, and I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough. Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:42:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.' But Dep, what if we make up the wrong stories? And why make up stories at all? Why not just enjoy them and appreciate them for what they are - just facts? Livia

Subject: Re: Further Clarification Opinions From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.' But Dep, what if we make up the wrong stories? And why make up stories at all? Why not just enjoy them and appreciate them for what they are - just facts? Livia --- How do we make the stories go away?

Subject: Stories From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By attempting to really clear your head and realise that's what they are - stories. By reading and considering and investigating other stories than the ones you've imbibed, to help give you the sense that the stories you've accepted as reality may not be the only stories with any apparent validity. By redeploying your innate sense of reason, which we were all born with - for a reason! None of this means you need ultimately abandon your original stories -but you will come back to them - if you decide to come back to them - more informed and definitely humbled. Warmly, Livia

Subject: To Dep re stories From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:42:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep, I posted to you above - are you going to respond? I'd be interested to hear your comments. I won't be able to get back to you till the weekend as I'll be away. All the best to you, Livia

Subject: What about Socrates? From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 15:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, What about Socrates? You threw him out as support for your version of 'self-knowledge' but, as Pat painstakingly pointed out to you, Socrates was the exact opposite of you. Socrates was into using his mind and carefully considering arguments, examining, as need be, each and every word for its full implication. Do you now renounce Socrates as being too prickly for your tastes or what?

Subject: Re: What about Socrates? From: Dep =) To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:05:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This just in from Rick Ross's 'Nothing is Good Enough Site' r.e., The Landmark Forum and Socrates. http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html A Harvard Forum For Self-Promotion? Boston Globe/November 6, 1998 By Alex Beam The Harvard Business School seems to be out of the business of selling $6,000 videotapes with Rosabeth Moss Kanter droning out platitudes like 'Great companies are focused in their approach to doing business.' (They will, however sell you a $495, 30-minute video on 'Managing Future Performance.') Now the B-School has a brand-new bag: flacking for the 'personal development' seminar known as The Forum. The San Francisco-based Landmark Forum came into being when Werner Erhard (John Paul Rosenberg to his parents) sold the 'technology' for Erhard Seminars Training -- est -- to his brother Harry. The Forum, formally known as the Landmark Education Corp., has enjoyed considerable success with the self-actualization crowd, and with the Cambridge intelligentsia. That success is now chronicled in an HBS case study so sycophantic that Landmark has been using it -- improperly, Harvard says -- as a promotional tool. The document, originally written for classroom discussion, is also sold to the public. Last revised in April, it reads like a 22-page advertisement for Landmark's 'breakthrough in paradigm thinking.' Authored by professor Karen Hopper Wruck, the case breathlessly quotes Forum executives who compare their work to that of Galileo and Socrates (!). The study also quotes from a Forum-sponsored Daniel Yankelovich survey of graduates. Surprise! All six veterans of the Forum's weekend training quoted by Wruck loved it! Wruck quickly dismisses critics who call the Forum a cult. The Forum is listed on the Internet FACTnet database of 'cults, groups and individuals that are alleged to be using coercive persuasion mind control techniques,' but they have sued people who call them a cult. In an appendix, she quotes at length from four experts who insist the Forum is not a cult, but cites no contrary opinions. Had Wruck been seeking to find anyone critical of the touchy-feely Forum she needed only to cross the campus and chat with Radcliffe public policy fellow Wendy Kaminer. The Forum is the subject of acidulous commentary in Kaminer's best-selling book, 'I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional.' 'If you want to experience or 'process' New Age's heady combination of pseudoscience, religion, and money,' writes Kaminer, 'visit a session or two of The Forum, the new incarnation of est.' In her defense, Wruck told me: 'I understood that it was a controversial company, but I wanted to study a company that directly addressed issues around human behavior. A case study is a pedagogical vehicle, not a position paper or an endorsement.' Harvard has affixed an unprecedented disclaimer ('Please be aware that . . . the school does not endorse this company or any other company') to the document. Mark Kamin, a Landmark spokesman, said his company ordered several thousand copies of the document after it was published. He adds that Landmark signed an agreement with Harvard not to use the case for promotional purposes, 'and we've endeavored to keep that agreement.' When I told him that a recent seminar attendee said the case was being used to puff Landmark, Kamin said, 'I can't guarantee that people who led seminars didn't say, 'Hey, there's this case study.'' So Jim, when are you signing up? VANCOUVER Landmark Education International, Inc. Suite 430, One Bentall Centre 505 Burrard Street P.O. Box 75 Vancouver, B.C. V7X 1M3 (604) 482-8000 Fax (604) 482-8008

Subject: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:35:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Just reading over some articles about Landmark it's clear that once you're in, like you, you're pressured to sell the seminar to others. So who's idea was it, anyway, for you to start pitching Landmark here so strongly? By the way, how many people have you tried to take there? How many went? How many followed your footsteps and actually signed up? Do you see your efforts to recruit somehow tied to your own 'progress'?

Subject: Re: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:34:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, No they didn't send me here. Have had no contact with Landmark since I re-took the Forum last summer. They don't phone or write. I don't hang out with any Forum people either. Just telling you and others about something of value that will help. All my idea I'm afriad. No conspiracy. And how, pray tell, would my efforts to recruit be tied to my own 'progress'? =)

Subject: Re: Did Landmark send you, Dog? From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:55:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scooby: ''And how, pray tell, would my efforts to recruit be tied to my own 'progress'?'' It would help you to bolster your own faith in your BS (belief system.) That's how. Isn't it obvious that you are preaching to yourself to boost your own faith? That's how all religion works from Maharajism to Landmark. It's a pyramid scheme of BS. The more people you get to believe in your BS the better you feel about believing your own BS.

Subject: Afraid to answer the question, Dog? From: Jim To: Dep =) Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:33:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To recap, you touted Socrates as someone who supported your approach to 'Self-knowledge'. Pat then went to some effort to show you what Socrates actually did which was to examine words and ideas as closely as possible, to analyse arguments with as much careful, critical scrutiny as he could. You then ignored Pat's or my questions about how you could ever reconcile Socrates' intellectualy rigour with your own sloppy, know-nothing (literally!) approach wherein you blythely eschew thinking and scientific knowledge as too 'prickly' for someone as 'gooey' as yourself. I then ask you again about Socrates. You then post this irrelevant article about your new pet cult, Landmark, and imply that, because one of the Landmark guys did as you did, invoke the name of Socrates as someone whose philosophy and approach to life supports his own, then he must be answering the original question, i.e. how does Socrates in any way jive with your appraoch? That's not an answer and you know it. You know, Dog, it's one thing to disagree about things here. It's another to waste peoples' time. Now are you going to answer the question or not? If not, perhaps you might ask yourself what right you have engaging anyone in any discussion here seeing as you'll just play the duck when convenient.

Subject: Re: Afraid to answer the question, Dog? From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:42:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, I don't know much about the Socrates. All I know about him is that he said, 'Know thyself,' and 'If I know one thing in life, it is that I know nothing.' Or something like like that. I paraphrase. Ask the Landmark people about it.

Subject: What a total goof you are! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 13:38:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're worse than a cartoon character. How dare you throw Socrates at us without knowing -- or caring -- the least bit about what he's really all about. But the really funny part, the thing that makes you look like the total goof you are is suggesting that Landmark is the place to go to learn about him! Why? Because they used his name just like you did??

Subject: Doobie doobie doo. From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:07:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Facts in themselves have no meaning; it is the stories we make up about those facts that give them meaning.'' Are you stoned all the time or is it congenital. I think I'll call you Scooby Doo from now on. I hear such a disdain and disrespectfulness in your voice (and I'm not the only one) that I am beginning to doubt your sincerity. From now on I will be treating you as a time-wasting troll.

Subject: Re: Doobie doobie doo. From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 21:45:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hear such a disdain and disrespectfulness in your voice. What are you talking about?

Subject: I take it back, Scooby From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 00:52:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I wrote that I had second thoughts about it. I'm sorry for saying it. Occassionally you come off as so fucking pious that you get my goat. Also I suspect you of playing games with people, not being totally sincere - like you're doing the fifth technique - you know, the tongue in cheek one where you think you know better than someone and are talking down to them? Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong Lawd you gonna miss me when I'm gone Jesus died to save our sins Glory to God I'm gonna see Him again Moses stood on the Red Sea shore Smotin' the water with a two-by-four (The Rock Island Line by Lead Belly)

Subject: About Opinions...;) From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 16:17:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I apologize if I came across as upset or sarcastic, John, I didn't mean to at all. My writing often doesn't reflect my tone of voice or mood. I suppose I'm feeling a bit feisty today--I can smell soil and grass, and the rain, and stuff after a long winter. I'm not upset or angry at all about this discussion. I love constructive criticism if it is not given in a condescending way. I'm much more sensitive than I come across much of the time. I do agree that when one voices an opinion what follows must be some backup material. It's one thing I am stilling learning. One thing that I love about this forum is the demand for intelligent discussion and debate. I am lazy about this because I never developed the discipline of making references and footnotes. I find it tedious, but I understand that if one wants to be credible it's important to have some backup. What I wrote did not represent my actual mood, however. It was a wonderful and beautiful day here--I'm quite happy. In the world often my facial expressions don't match my tone of voice or my words (it's bizarre, but I work on it). It confuses my husband still... (actually annoys him):). Learning how to converse and debate rationally is one reason I stay here. Good mentors. BUT, I do wish more women would post. I love you guys but sometimes we wimen' need to discuss things too. Well, enought out of me Got to go for now, I'm cooking... Love to you, John Btw, it is zalot here and stunning, to take in so many different shades of green Cynthia

Subject: Thank you, Bai Ji!!! From: Inside Edition To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 21:36:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bai Ji, Thank you very much for posting this. I experienced practically everything that was written, but now I have also experienced that there indeed IS life after the cult, and that what goes around comes around. Thanks again!

Subject: Re: Thank you, Bai Ji!!! From: Bai Ji To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:25:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are MOST Welcome IE. Thank you for responding my new friend. XXXX

Subject: Bai JI , sweetie....... From: Vicki To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:34:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...PULL UP YOUR BOOT STRAPS AND GET WITH IT GIRL!!! Lest I remind you of my previous motherly nagging of hunting you down like a hound dog and dragging you out into the sunshine. Now listen up, and listen good. You are without a doubt, one of the most talented writers I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Quit self medicating and put pen to paper. Write a friggin' book on all this. Who better? Well, okay, just about everyone here, but you have the gift of gab me dearie. Don't squander it away. Times a wastin'. Get back in college and study again. You aren't too late. I'll tell you what I watched yesterday on television. An older lady started a doggie and music therapy duo for the university teaching hospital here. It was too fantastic. A young boy was in a coma due to brain injury from falling off a rope swing. They held out no hope for him. In came the golden retriever, climbed into bed with him, and he started thrashing around. He slowly came out of the coma. Over and over these animals took away, if only momentarily, the pain of children as young as four in for chemo. The lady was asked why these animals can cause such a response? She replied that animals have the capacity to unlock human emotions and bring about healing. I tell you this because it struck me how self centered the selfless knowledge caused premies to be. Caused us to think nothing else in this world was worthy. Not people, not love, not kindness, unless it was directed only in one direction. I think it made us sick. Your health is a gift. Go visit a cancer ward. Then be good to yourself.

Subject: Re: Bai JI , sweetie....... From: Bai Ji To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:14:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are Right. Thank You. Time to get on wid it!

Subject: I'm not nuts, eh? From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:20:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have realized that I seem to have fragmented. Maybe this is normal. When I'm talking to myself, sometimes I refer to my self in the third person such as 'She ought to do this.' When I catch nyself, I say aloud, Whose she? Ususally I talk to myself in the second person as in 'Gail you ought to ....' So I guess I'm totally out of it, or are you like this too? I'm serious.

Subject: Hell no! You're not nuts. From: Tonette To: Gail Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 02:17:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I talk to myself in the second person occassionally. Especially if I've done something especially stupid. And I'll say outloud, 'Tonette how could you forget this, why did you do that, what were you thinking, ect. My mom used to talk to herself, outloud often. I'd catch her, sitting at the kitchen table, talking to herself. I'd want to know what she was ruminating about of course and she'd usually tell me. It was her way of figuring out a problem, or getting rid of a worry. She said that by talking to herself it kept her FROM going crazy! So you're no more nuts than the rest of us. That's saying something. Right? Or is it? Just kidding. Take care, Warmly, Tonette

Subject: No - and I love your posts. [nt] From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 17:12:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No, you're just fine. From: Marshall To: Gail Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 14:35:05 (PDT) Email Address: None Message: Hi Gail, I like you, you have always struck me as a kind and funny person, kind of cynical too, but what do you expect? I was there when you first arrived here doubtful, scornful. I'm proud of you Gail, you made it out of a decietful cult. Give yourself a break, everyone talks to themselves, just internally, you were just 'speaking your thoughts'. Anyway take care, treat yourself like a queen! Bye, Marshall

Subject: Re: No, you're just fine. From: Gail To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 19:55:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Marshall. You're a sweetie!

Subject: try this From: janet To: Gail Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:14:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: look for books by John Bradshaw in the bookstores, and immerse yourself in anything he has put out about 'Boundaries' and how we lose them, how others break them, and how we can find them again and restore them to the rightful strength they ought to be. if there are exercises given to do, by all means, spend the time with yourself anf do them. expect deep changes as the real you wakes up and emerges. one simple one you can start doing already: every time you catch yourself speaking to yourself or referring to yourself in the third person [she] or second person [you], stop and deliberately reframe what's facing you as 'I'. I want. I think. I see. I know. I need. I feel. I have. I can. deliberately retrain yourself to consult yourself and listen to yourself, as to what is coming out of you, and not refer to anyone else and what they say or think or opine. It will have some unexpected effects, but all good ones. It sounds by your description like you got marginalized, pushed out to the edges, had your right to establish yourself as a valid person, invaded and stamped out, and someone took your rights away unto themselves and imposed their opinion over your natural choices. despair not. the original you is still in there, and all those 'others' are gone now. you can come out now. you can get to know yourself again. it's OK. you're built to work OK without them around. if you wonder and doubt about that?--just review all the things you have learned to do for yourself that nobody can do for you and never can: you learned to walk by yourself. you learned to eat by yourself. you learned to talk by yourself. you learned to read for yourself. you learned to write for yourself. you use a computer by yourself. you can lengthen the list as part of the exercise. keep going. add to it. keep thinking about yourself and what you can do that nobody has to do for you because you can do it yourself. the effect eventually should break whatever hold over you those 'outsiders' got upon your ability to know yourself from the first person, out. not all that surprising you would be noticing this landmark development in your awareness of how you are. by definition, joining a cult means surrendering doing your own knowing/ feeling/thinking and letting someone else tell you what you are. which is bullshit, thank you very much! so leaving it necessarily means discovering how much they invaded your sacrosanct rights to be you and know yourself. and exercises are good. consider it beginners assertiveness training. its a game of illusory 'chicken'. the other person cook you only up until you rise up and spook em back harder. then they quit and shut up and leave you alone so you can hear yourself think. as george zimmer says 'you're gonna like the way you look. I guarantee it.' not that what i have to say about how you look matters beans --- -!!!!!!!! got that? [lol lol lol lol] have fun. and kick out those interlopers. the only one who lives in your head is YOU!! as Ramtha said: no one can do the living for you, and certainly, no one does the dying, either.

Subject: Re: sorry-line correction here From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:22:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that should have read: its a game of illusory 'chicken'. the other person can spook you only up until you rise up, and spook em back harder. then they quit and shut up and leave you alone, so you can hear yourself think.

Subject: Re: I'm not nuts, eh? From: david m To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 17:52:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail..hang in there I live in Detroit I must be nuts...seriously i thought your post was compelling..and I too would of done most anything for GMJ..I skipped out on jobs friends family to travel to see him ...Ireally think we were on the same ship...Peace...David

Subject: Actually, you're quite sane... From: Cynathia To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:46:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail: I have realized that I seem to have fragmented. Maybe this is normal. When I'm talking to myself, sometimes I refer to my self in the third person such as 'She ought to do this.' When I catch nyself, I say aloud, Whose she? Ususally I talk to myself in the second person as in 'Gail you ought to ....' So I guess I'm totally out of it, or are you like this too? I'm serious. Gail, Sounds like you may be dissociating. It's a human thing to do and unless it interferes with normal (I hate that word) functioning nothing to worry about. I'm a bit educated on the topic of fragmentation. If you want to discuss this privately, please email me at: sylviecyn@yahoo.com. You're not insane, quite the contrary. But if you do feel seriously fragmented, it can be a crazy-making feeling if it's chaotic. You'll be fine, have patience with yourself. And again, feel free to email me. Love, Cynthia

Subject: I'm nuts too From: JHB To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail, I do this sometimes too. I doubt it matters much:) John.

Subject: These are nuts (frm Lifes Grate) From: You guys wanna see nuts? To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 17:52:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: LOL Hey, you guys......Wow. I stay away for a few short months and --- -things change radically: Deb--who used to sound & feel like a bitter loon --- is, like, a cool person! I am blown away. Good job. I don't know all the machinations and all the history(the dark exchanges you refer to with Heller, Marianne, et.al.) but it's sweet to feel your kindness, Deb. Hey, Harry: love to hear that shit; testify, brother, testify. (Edotor's note: In all probability the multi-faceted David Anderson is Harry, LOL. What's this about me & Nigel? My short-term memory loss/inevitable senior-monent-itis has kicked in...somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. And, BTW, life IS great. Knowledge is an amazing, powerful tool; Maharaji/Prem Rawat is a beautiful, loving teacher. I've said this before here, but it comes up again and again: Mr. Rawat is a man unafraid to fail spectacularly, process it quickly, and move on. He is my hero in this respect. He's totally fearless about taking risks in the service of his purpose: to place Knowledge in front of as many people as possible globally, with a total absence of 'trips' and cultural baggage --- to offer the highest common denominator to every single human who has an interst, feels a thirst. What a magnificent vision; AND--he's failed his way to immense success. Just like Edison. or Churchill. Or Jesus. Or hundreds of people that were undeterred by failure in advancing their skill level and producing their masterpiece due to the strength of their experience and motivation. Failure, in fact, is only failure, and negative or useless, unless you fail to humbly accept the lesson from it, and move on with joy. Just like any child that's ever been born into this world. How does a baby learn to walk? By failing until he succeeds; by not obsessing on pain or blame; by not being self-important in the arrogant, egotistical way. By knowing life is a beautiful, loving teacher; by acknowledging the magic and mystery that exists in us and around us at all times. Again: life is fookin' great, kids.......xoxo David Anderson or is that Andy Davidson?

Subject: I'm so grateful I'm gonna explode!!!!!!! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:05:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Each drop Finally I've learned to count my blessings. You have made me realize and understand some very precious things in my life. Reminders comes in many ways. I am much more grateful now than I ever was before. Thank you so much, my dear master.. .. Kalpana Ellan Penang, Malaysia ********* The reason I was born Eleni Kyriakopoulou From Athens, Greece Last night listening to Maharaji I felt this overwhelming feeling that the reason I was born, the reason I was alive, was so that I could be with him, listen to him and drink the nectar of his presence. My heart exploded in this feeling, in gratitude, in wonderful awareness.

Subject: I thought it was 'grapeful.' From: WGB To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:20:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which woulda made sense, even if you thought about it. And full of olives and feta. It *will* make you explode. Still, better than drinking the water. *Sam Condon (Bill, of the Wild Goose Cult)

Subject: Life is Grape From: PatC To: WGB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 12:07:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sam, I just read your conversation with Catweasel on LG. You're banging you head against a brick wall. He knows that he comes off sounding insane but doesn't care. It's all a game to him. He's yanking your chain. But nice try anyway.

Subject: Without outside From: Dickie Pwickie To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:46:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Without outside Dickie Pwickie From the dumpster behind Trancas Market Malibooboo, CA When now I go within inside, I find That Place where you reside. If I can't travel that inside road, I think that I will just explode. Then everything within inside me, Will no longer reside within in me. And everything that I know is real, Without outside will now be I feel. So keep reminding me to breathe I pray, Or all within will be without one day. Without Prem's Self-Knowledge, now hear me shout, I'd be without outside with all my doubts.

Subject: Within Without Within From: Cynthia To: Dickie Pwickie Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, You like that without onside thing do ya? And don't make fun of me aiamic pent-a-meters::) I'm sensitive. It's from the 'Last Temptation of Cheese and Crackers by Cynthia' Without outside is where I'll be Among the birds and maple trees. It's good to know within inside Was nothing more than Rawat's pride. The master says he lives within He shouts his lies and in that sin My ears snap shut amid his din. The world outside is my abode For there I never will explode There is no reason to implode For Rawat is a simple toad. Then either or and on and on Without outside I see real dawn. Without outside I see him gone.

Subject: Last Temptation of Cheese and Crackers - LOL From: Dickie Pwickie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 20:02:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Far in! Your poem is so like totally kind of, you know, really just so way beyond this incredibly beautiful beauty within inside without which we'd be inside out and down and out. Besides, who cares what ameter you use, pent or otherwise? Why be subject to the boring rules of the Non-Self-Knowledged? It's just all so beautiful and life really IS fookin' great... ooops. Damnit! I just knocked over my bong and wasted some really good bhog prasad weed I scored from Hansi. That's my karma for tokin' and jokin'. D.P. aka Richard

Subject: Premie memorabilia From: Anandaji To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:36:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was cleaning my attic this week and came across a box of premie memorabilia. I quickly tossed it into the throw-away pile, but then retrieved it after a few minutes. I just couldn't so flippantly toss out the remnants of a 28 year odyssey. There are several 'And it is Divine's' and 'Divine Times.' There is a premie songbook and a few posters. The most evocative item for me is a large Millenium poster. 'To Houston or Bust, in God we Trust.' Millenium happened 3 weeks after I received K. What have you done with your memorabilia? Does anyone want this stuff? I read through one of the magazines. Weird. Very, very weird now that I am removed from what I once held so sacred. I think I am suffereing from post hypnotic stress syndrome. Anandaji

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: janet To: Anandaji Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:33:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so-- i was not the only one obsessed with reaming out the past in my closets this week! good job! I had a moment like that. I found a poster of MJ in his bare chested mala/krisha gear, i think from kissimmee, the night he danced [ but who the hell gives a fuck]..and at a later point found a poster tube with three posters of the Doors from a different obsessive time in my life. I lingered all of a moment over each, set them aside, went on cleaning, and found out the next day that my room mate put them out with the house trash and the city took them. oh well. BFD i dont feel the slightest wish to have them back. screw it. and more of the same await. i have a barrel full of similar posters i pulled out to go thru, yet. having set the precedent, the rest will be simpler. unless we want to make them an online gallery?

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Jean-Michel To: Anandaji Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 00:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: jmkahn@club-internet.fr Message: Some documents may be worth being included in EPO ! If you think some are, please let's discuss it.

Subject: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 05:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How about an appeal on the homepage for any old time premies to send in old dlm stuff?

Subject: What EPO needs and doesn't need From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:33:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: La-ex, Between me and J-M we already have a lot of material to back up the quotes on EPO. Most of my stuff is still in England, but I've made arrangements to get my tapes from the late 70's so that I can add to the quotes on EPO. In particular, I think we need a hard hitting selection of 'surrender' quotes. I also have a fair number of magazines from that period. What would be good would be the more unusual, personal, stuff, like letters from Maharaji/DLM, that weren't in general circulation, particularly confidential stuff about DLM/EV organisational and financial matters. Also, recordings of 'restricted' events like ashram or instructor meetings. I don't think we need an ad on EPO. People who have this stuff tend to offer it anyway. To Anandaji, I would say keep the stuff. This was a very important time of your life, and if nothing else it's a reminder of how we are fallable. Look at it occasionally when you feel your ego growing:) John.

Subject: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have that tape though I don't know what condition it's in. It's a cassette audio tape. Wasn't there also a film or video on that special appearance?

Subject: Re: Remember when he was on Merv Griffin? From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:45:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes, with the sitar music in the backround? also, the congressional speech in the late 70's....wonder who has a copy of that one?

Subject: Ever hear about this Mischler tape? From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:41:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine said that he heard some tapes from Bob Mischler that caused him to leave around 1980 or so. In it, he said that the reason that m's eyes were so glassy on stage, especially when he had gone bacstage for awhile after his satsang ended, as that the backstage rerigerator was well stocked with champagne. These and other revelations on the tapes cause him to leave. Ever run across these tapes?

Subject: No, can you get them? From: JHB To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 10:04:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's clear from the tape with the deprogrammed premies that Mishler had kept quiet for a while after leaving, but then realised it was his duty to tell the truth. So it is very likely that apart from the radio and telephone interviews that he must have given other interviews. So if you, or anyone else, can track these down, I would be very interested in getting them on EPO. John.

Subject: Re: JM-is this a good idea for epo? From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:04:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who's going to take care of the stocks ? Do you have a place to store all the stuff ? Not talking about the security/safety ....

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Brian Smith To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:58:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anandaji, Do not throw any of that stuff away. It might be good to preserve evidence of that old propaganda for the sake of bebunking the present and possible future revisionist positions. Check your personal email, I just sent you a message

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Marshall To: Anandaji Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 22:12:32 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Anandaji, I have been wanting to get a hold of an old poster that said 'Discover the Sunny Kingdom Through Meditation', on it, it also depicts a shangri-la type landscape as the centerpiece. Got one of those? Heck, I want the posters, cool? Marshall

Subject: Re: Premie memorabilia From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 08:06:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi All, I have quite a few things that I keep in a box in my office. Every blue moon I look inside; those items can be a real gauge for how far I've gone away from it all. I have many photos, too...

Subject: Next event. From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 20:47:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: An event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. Date: 5/29/2002 7:37:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at an event in Pasadena California, Saturday June 15th. This event is open only to people from North America who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. The location of the event is: Pasadena Conference Center Exhibition Building 300 East Green Street Pasadena, California 91101 This event is scheduled to begin at 5pm. The registration fee will range from $65.00 to $80.00 On line registration will be available starting Friday, May 31st at www.elanvital.org/june2002event Please have your Smart card number available when you register. Seats will be assigned from the front of the hall on a first-come, first-served basis. If you are unable to pay for registration online, you will need to register at the hall. Please be aware that security measures will be in effect for entry into the venue. Allow ample time to arrive at the hall to check in. For updates to this announcement, please check the event website www.elanvital.org/june2002event. This information is also available by calling 310-859-2284.

Subject: Contacted the Conference Center From: John in Pasadena To: Sulla Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:05:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and gave them some background info. on the Guru Maharaj ji. The guy was somewhat interested but seemed more concerned to be making a few bucks for renting the place. I sent him a link to EPO and told him that he and his supervisors may want to look into it a bit, anb that the evangelical, snake oil perveyor that is coming to preach is actually the Guru Maharaj ji from the 70's and not the New Age Meditation Instructor of Self-Knowledge Prem Rawat. Time to contact other interested parties, I don't want this A-hole to have a free ride in my town.

Subject: LA Weekly? New Times? LA Times? From: janet To: John in Pasadena Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:43:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: give themn advance notice to do a story about then and now, EPO, the real info. i live here too.let's rip the drunk.

Subject: Re: LA Weekly? New Times? LA Times? From: J in P To: janet Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 04:57:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are links, I have written them an invite to the event, but have asked them not to do any research on the man (any good reporter will follow up on that-hopefully). New Times: Cut and Paste http://www.newtimesla.com/feedback/index_html?author_email=feedback@newtimesla.com LA Weekly: http://www.laweekly.com/feedback/ LA Times www.latimes.com/services/site/la-comment-metro.story

Subject: You da man, John!!! (nt) From: Inside Edition To: John in Pasadena Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 21:26:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Religion journalist at LA Times From: Informant To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:27:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The LA Time's religion writer, Jessica Garrison, recently wrote an article about Scientology. That article was reprinted here, I believe, a few weeks ago. I have just emailed Ms. Garrison telling her about the Prem Rawat Foundation and their meeting in Pasadena in June. I suggested that she look at this website.

Subject: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:58:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Deborah, the genius 'player' with 'the right intellectual tools' posted this on LG. What do you think? (Well, actually, if she's right I know the answer -- you think whatever I MAKE you think :)). But, besides that, isn't this something? I just can't get enough of this crazy shit for some reason. Deborah Hi Selene, If their image is so important, why they keep going on gossiping, and not about M but other people who used to post on their forum?? Strange behavior. Well that's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? Don't you think they are losing credibility by the hour? The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum. One criterium for maintaing their indoctrination is to control the flow of information. It's easy to control what information is in, because of the sleaze ball tactics and panic button pushers known as FA's and their insatiable appetite for control. But how do they keep the borders controlled? If people read over here, than they might think criticallyabout their own experiences. For example, I am correcting the great 'Maha demonized the mind myth'. I never bought that shit at F-VII but just didn't argue it into the ground. I did comment once that that wasn't my dilemma but posts like that are not sensational and remain dormant. So, if I counter the revisionist statements in my posts over here, someone may read it and question that perception at F-VII and that is not good. Their logic in this case, is to demonize me for saying anything good and brand it as 'she is just sore' at us. But sore about what? Good question, now they need a what! But the what that has any semblance of truth is 'bad' for publicity because it exposes them for being 'bad'. You see!? They backed themselves into a corner, Selene. The forum relies on conditioning the exes to the Heller philosophy including revised memories and people like us threaten that agenda. Most damaging is the harsh fact that we also threaten the notion that they are the salvation from the 'premie' cult. ooooh, So, if the premies are perceived as nice, and fun, and a joy to be around, than the exes stand out in contrast with their constant angst and anger and escalating hatred. The exes need to fabricate the war, so that their indoctrinated recruits can have somewhere to channel their negative energy. Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. Demonizing is an important aspect of indoctrination. As long as nobody is pointing the finger back at them, they can condition the minds of people who have been willingly around for three decades. . .If a premie points the finger back, they call it 'apologist spin'. But now, an ex-patriot of their forum is pointing fingers (especially the middle one) and that is breaking the structure of dramatic polarity. Hey Selene, notice that Maharaji has never risen to ex-premeie forum bait? We are following his lead Do you think Heller doesn't detest that every moment of his pathetic life? So to Heller, premies are the closest he'll ever get to Maharaji. His goal is to make premies accountable for Maharaji to justify his relentless anger. And the exes follow his lead like sheep. It doesn't dawn on them that the premies don't have to argue for or against anything Maharaji has ever said or done. Their new ex-premie indoctrination overrules that logic. We have undone a very big momentum in other words. If we are part of the Catweasel coven, than we get ensconsed in the 'other' and that can be re-organized intellectually thanks to a little inculcation criterium known as 'cognitive dissonance'. If they stop talking about it, than the new dilemma they have, thanks to people like us, will dissipate. People will also have time to think about the bullshit. So their only choice is to keep it alive. Keeping it alive is inadvertantly taking massive heaps of attention away from Maharaji. Hee hee And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. It's a vicious circle. Metaphor is apropos, wouldn't you say?

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Scott T. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:42:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim: Well supporting the premie forum and arguing with the exes that they take their shit back to the ex-forum takes away their imaginary battlefield where the premies can be used as target practice. This is why Heller and his sidekick bodgies put out the spin against premies. Blanket over-generalized statements are made and demonized. OK, I know Deb is supposed to be brilliant and erudite, but isn't she saying that we demonize our own statements? Or am I reading that amiss?? We have undone a very big momentum in other words. Undone a momentum? When a vehicle nears its destination the velocity is decreased because otherwise the momentum would carry it on past. For a passenger to perceive this as a process that *they* initiated is humorous, but would have to be tied to some redeeming quality in order to escape being merely pathetic. And so the forum has new life for those doing life because the drama is fresh compared to the 'yesterday's newspaper headlines', but unfortunately the nothing new is turning off those who go for their Maha-is-bad fix. Why does this sound so much like an 'OxiClean' commercial? Tolstoy it's not. --Scott

Subject: Time to quit... From: Cynthia To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:58:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Scott, and All, We have here a woman who is walking with her high-heels shoes on backwards, heel to toe, and walking uphill in her own vomit. If you could hear my voice you would know I'm not being sarcastic. Yet I can be a bitch--just ask my husband;) I try to keep a sufficiant berth from such manipulative types. You never know where you're going to end up. Probably sliding in the vomit. IMO

Subject: Talk about revisionism!? [nt] From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:13:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oky, everyone -- jig's up. Time to quit From: Inside Edition To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 19:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The forum is not based on integrity, but rather on hype and a do whatever it takes to keep the hype alive momentum.' I do believe the same could easily be said about Rat-wat!

Subject: re-not based on integrity From: AV To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:16:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The forum never struck me as based on hype, rather the stories of a group of people with very diversr experiences of M and the world of K which they are trying to resolve; some are angry i.e. those personally affected by abuse, or had given up careers and property only to be dumped, some have fond memories of M and cannot reconcile their past beliefs with current behaviour, some are undergoing a major crisis of faith in anything 'divine', some continue to meditate as a road to an inner landscape believed to be a connection to the infinite; there are so many opinions and views exchanged; sometimes it gets ferocious, sometimes very humorous. bottom line is, whatever the view or perspective, people here are pretty sincere, and there is often a lot of love and care taken in providing a valuable free-zone for feelings of a complex and difficult nature.

Subject: David Andersen (on LG) disagrees From: PatC To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 13:08:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, you guys......Wow. I stay away for a few short months and --- -things change radically: Deb--who used to sound & feel like a bitter loon --- is, like, a cool person! I am blown away. Good job. I don't know all the machinations and all the history(the dark exchanges you refer to with Heller, Marianne, et.al.) but it's sweet to feel your kindness, Deb. Hey, Harry: love to hear that shit; testify, brother, testify. What's this about me & Nigel? My short-term memory loss/inevitable senior-monent-itis has kicked in...somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. And, BTW, life IS great. Knowledge is an amazing, powerful tool; Maharaji/Prem Rawat is a beautiful, loving teacher. I've said this before here, but it comes up again and again: Mr. Rawat is a man unafraid to fail spectacularly, process it quickly, and move on. He is my hero in this respect. He's totally fearless about taking risks in the service of his purpose: to place Knowledge in front of as many people as possible globally, with a total absence of 'trips' and cultural baggage --- to offer the highest common denominator to every single human who has an interst, feels a thirst. What a magnificent vision; AND--he's failed his way to immense success. Just like Edison. or Churchill. Or Jesus. Or hundreds of people that were undeterred by failure in advancing their skill level and producing their masterpiece due to the strength of their experience and motivation. Failure, in fact, is only failure, and negative or useless, unless you fail to humbly accept the lesson from it, and move on with joy. Just like any child that's ever been born into this world. How does a baby learn to walk? By failing until he succeeds; by not obsessing on pain or blame; by not being self-important in the arrogant, egotistical way. By knowing life is a beautiful, loving teacher; by acknowledging the magic and mystery that exists in us and around us at all times. Again: life is fookin' great, kids.......xoxoDA

Subject: The Ghost of Satsang past From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 14:14:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somebody refresh my cannabis-encrusted neurotransmitters. I remember GMJ saying once, in reply to a question about where dope fitted into the new world of god realisation, something like..'you see these guys,they're diving in a cove somewhere, they're not part of the plan'. Can't remember the exact words. This Anderson person is a fuckwit.A slave in the service of a greedy little bastard.What's all this failure shit, the perfect master was always right, back when he & I, & you & everyone else who looks in here,were mesmerised. Seems this Anderson's got his knackers caught in the lift door...going up yeah...going down yeah...it's all the same thing man, cause it's the same bellboy pushing the buttons. What a joke.(or maybe it's a lila)

Subject: Here is what I remember From: Brian Smith To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 12:12:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember GMJ saying once, in reply to a question about where dope fitted into the new world of god realisation, something like.. Hi Pat, I remember rawat answering that question circa 1974 with the illustration of how when one uses drugs to find God it is like crashing a car right into God's living room. 'You can see God in there and he can see you but you can't roll the windows down or open the doors. Even though you can see God and he can see you, you can't get out and he can't get in.' This was another one of his car analogy's that he was so fond of using, he also stated that drugs brought you down and diminished your experience of meditation and that LSD aka "acid" burns. I also remember clearly in Hardwar India Rawat decrying the fact that it had come to his attention that there were premies going out and smoking cigarette's and that he could not imagine why anyone would want to pollute their lungs and he wanted this activity stopped. He was probably smoking marlboro's drinking and using drugs himself when he said those things according to the accounts of some of the inner circle PAM's we have heard from here and on EPO. Rawat is a hypocrite and a pathalogical liar, an irresponsible flake and a phony

Subject: An interesting discussion from LG From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:59:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will has been talking to the premie, ''Harry,'' on LG. (''Harry'' has been the most articulate and wordy cult apologist on LG since David Andersen stopped posting there.) Will Subject: To Harry, continuing from below Message: Harry, Thanks for responding to my 'very specific question.' I find that you spoke first of your own experience with Prem Rawat and how you are grateful for what he has have given you, which was not specifically what I was asking about. And then, secondly, you mentioned other possible teachers, which again was not what I was specifically wanting to ask about. You make a couple other points that were beside my point, such as whether or not the techniques are original to Prem Rawat, whether there is an actual cost to learn the techniques, and what certain other people who you know have experienced. But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language. So I beg to differ. I do not think the problem is semantic at all. I think it is a pivotal point and addresses a basic reality and in fact is one of the most important questions a human being should ask himself if he is ever inclined toward following a guru figure. The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student? I will tell you what I think about it, and then perhaps pose the question to you again. There are two 'levels' that one can think about this question. One is the very straight-forward logical level in which the guru teaches the techniques to the student and the student says thank you for teaching me these techniques. Then the student goes and uses the techniques and has a very good experience and the student says, 'boy, if you hadn't shown me these techniques and encouraged me to practice, I would probably have never known this very good experience, so thank you for that!' The gratitude would be of an appropriate level, and I would have no problem at all for a graditude of that sort. But the gratitude would be for the showing of the techniques and the encouragement, not for the experience itself. Here is the point and here is where Rawat and others like him sneak in a grand lie. The gratitude for the experience itself must go to the right place. And where is that? The guru? Should the human guru figure be credited with 'giving the experience!?' This is the point I am trying to make and trying to force you to address, Harry. I shall tell you how I would answer my own question. For my being, I am grateful to the source, the mysterious source, of my being. For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe. For my own development in my life, both 'externally' and 'internally,' I honor myself and the efforts I have made. I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way. Now there is another level on which people can think about this question, a more 'spritual' and hypothetical level. When I received Knowledge, it was very clearly to be understood that I was receiving a grace through the auspices of Prem Rawat. The grace came to me through Prem Rawat and his representative. Unfortunately for my case, I received Knowledge from Jagdeo, and I can only think that there really wasn't any grace happening for me through that person, because I can't imagine that divine grace would come to me through such a despicable pervert as Jagdeo. But let us say that I 'received Knowledge' from another one of Rawat's representatives, let's say Michael Parragon. I always detested Michael Parragon's personality. So how could divine grace come to me through some ignorant human being I can't stand? What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person? The point I am trying to get at is that I want to acknowledge the source of grace in my life, but I want it to be the right source. Even it remains mysterious to me. In my experience and opinion, the guru figure alligns himself with the source of grace in a way that he should never ever do. And the student misdirects his gratitude toward the guru figure because he is too bound by the illusions of human perspective and fails to accept the mystery of life. He directs his gratitude toward a person as if that person were the source. He will use the phrase 'I received Knowledge' from my teacher. But that is the wrong phrase. It should be: 'I learned some techniques of meditation from my teacher.' The actual experience I have of my own Self-Knowledge comes from within me. I have no problem with those teachers of meditation who offer their teaching services and then leave it at that. There is a bit of gratitude, properly directed and in line with the truth of life. The problem with all those gurus who declare themselves the giver of the gift of Self-Knowledge is that they are taking more credit than they deserve. Self-Knowledge is between an individual person and his own Self. A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be. All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within. And we can share with each other the truth and the love that we know. But it can never, must never, be limited to one person's personality cult. And it should never be considered a gift from one person to another person. That is a perversion. So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat (as quoted originally below). Do you believe that in order to have the experience of Self-Knowledge and to grow in that experience, must one approach another human being who claims to be the Master of that Knowledge? Do you have to get something from somebody else, as they claim? I think this question is one of the few really defining differences between premies and ex-premies. I think we actually agree with each other on most other counts. That is why I am insisting on this very specific question. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Harry Recipient: Subject: Re: To Will, continuing from below Message: Hi Will, Since you asked, I’ll try again, though I pretty much said what I wanted to say the first time. I’ll try to say it quickly as I have a lot to take care of right now. We have fundamentally different approaches. You feel that a person can and should get wherever they’re ''going'' in their desire to unite with whateveryoucallit on their own, through the natural processes, lessons and realizations that life presents them with. Is that an accurate paraphrasing? You said - ''A person moves toward his own heart and his own higher self by living his life and learning the lessons that life teaches him. All we are required to learn is how to live honorably, in tune with truth and love. We are not required to unite our limited consciousness with the Infinite, because that would be the Infinite's job to accomplish, obviously. We need only to open our hearts to that power. We can live honorably on the 'outside' and go quietly to our core on the 'inside,' independent of any specific techniques or teachers or rules. That is how it is, and how it is good to be.'' Sounds nice (well, maybe the last sentence ain’t so great). My approach is different in the one respect that highlights this discussion. In my life, my heart was opened to that power with the assistance, guidance, care, humor, wisdom and perspective of a guy named Maharaji. Not the formless and unmanifest, not a book or a philosophy. Not ''the Universe'' or unnamed, mysterious forces. Not only do I not reject, shun or deny his help, I welcome it. I feel my association with him, however out of fashion or uncool at any given point, greatly accelerates every bit of what you state and that the more lighthearted, loving, accepting, appreciative and deeply felt state that I crave and love, and he encourages and reminds me about, is the state you’re aspiring to, by your description. You don’t want nor accept anyone’s help? Fine, that’s your call. You don’t like Michael Paragon or believe every bit of unbalanced debris you hear about Maharaji? That’s up to you. Your only reference to him in your post was, ''What if Prem Rawat himself taught me the techniques in some video? And what if I really didn't like people who drove drunk and was uncomfortable getting my Self-Knowledge from such a person?'' I’d say you have a profoundly limited, somewhat insulting, miniscule comprehension of the person who supposedly is a central figure in your long post and questions. Maybe that sounds rude to you but you might take a moment to see how totally you have absorbed the party line of the ex-premies, to the point where you’re probably unaware that you’re insulting my teacher and friend, who I love, know and feel very close to, as you ask me a question. Would you so easily insult someone’s family members or friends? I doubt it. Are you ready to throw out of your record collection all music by artists who were reported to have driven drunk one time 20 years ago? You’d be left with a single Pat Boone album - actually, come to think of it.... As I said the first time, the way you’ve phrased your question is loaded from the start. That’s why I answered each and every component of your question, though you apparently feel that those answers were side trips. So be it. If I were a basketball player who usually shot 6 or 7 out of 10 of my foul shots (here’s where I’m hoping you’re American or Serbo-Croatian) and a basketball teacher (might not even be a player, could be 5’ 3'') pointed out a few key items about my stroke, after which I consistently shot 9 or 10 out of 10, I’d have a similar question facing me. If being around that teacher, for whatever reason, lifts my game those few notches, should I keep him around or stay with my ''natural'' 65-70%? Now, as you suggest, I could thank him, ask him to take off and resume my natural progression. What if my percentage tended to slip back to its former state and when he came around again, it rose back up to 90-95%? Should I accept this, be suspicious, thank him or run away? Is it an insult to me and to the entire course of human evolution that this dude can be the catalyst to kicking my level of play quite a ways up? Is it a coincidence that I almost always feel at the very top of my ''game'' when I’m around Maharaji? What do I mean by that? The love tank fills to overflowing, the laugh tank fills up, stresses disappear, my perspective gets way larger and longer term, my delight in and recognition of the beauty of all existence grows logarithmically. Priorities get organically re-ordered. The preciousness of the time I have becomes far more apparent than in the ''normal'' daily approach. I feel at my very best. In fact, I’ve been blasted right out the top of my tepee more times than I can count. This has occurred over three decades. I take these as a little bit more than signs that my association with this character is of great importance and impact in my life. Nothing and no one else has had this effect on me consistently. You have that effect on yourself? Mazel tov. I don’t. I can use the help. You think it’s a giant placebo effect? I’ll take it. ''For the love in my life I am grateful toward the love that exists in the universe.'' I find that to be a meaningless sentence. Where, in space? I’m grateful for the love I have with people I actually know. I’m a person and I tend to dig the personal. That’s why I don’t feel the personal or devotional love for Maharaji is misplaced, another of your points. When love grows, whoever inspires, triggers or catalyzes it, it floods into all areas of one’s life and everyone benefits: your wife, kids, pets, and friends. How bad or detrimental exactly is someone whose presence or proximity draws your attention to your most beautiful attributes as well as theirs? Compassion and understanding are natural by-products of immersion in that power and beauty. ''I am grateful to all those who have helped me along the way.'' Except Maharaji. Funny, that. ''All people who are alive have the capacity to know the quiet within.'' Yes, and very few of them know how to access it. That’s where a little help might come in handy. Back to what you commented as me finally getting to the crux of your biscuit. ''But then, you do get around to addressing directly what I wanted you to write about, when you say 'there's an obvious semantic dichotomy of how can it be a gift if you already have it?' But you merely state the dichotomy and do not answer my question about what you believe about it. You do seem to be saying that you feel the dichotomy is merely semantic and that there is no real issue here other than the difficulty and limitations of human language.'' Every one of the lovely attributes I mentioned above, all of the tanks (tanks for the memories) we have. We are born with them. Do they tend to grow or fade as we age? Are we getting closer to or farther away from feeling them? Look around, I think the answer’s pretty clear. ''So I ask again, does your own experience of Self-Knowledge correspond to my version, or to the version of Shri Hans and Prem Rawat?'' My experience corresponds far more to Maharaji’s and Shri Hans’ than to yours, though all three of us might express it differently due to many factors, not least being where and when in history we existed. ''The original question, again, was: do you believe Prem Rawat when he says that the experience of Self-Knowledge has to be a gift from one person to another, from the Master to the student?'' Yes, I believe it is indeed a gift that awakens, heightens, reveals and allows us to directly immerse ourselves in the loving, kind, infinite and highly pleasurable beauty that is our nature and was within us all along. That’s a ''dichotomy'' I can happily live with. And no, I don’t think your attempts at getting there yourself by means of natural progression will get you as far, as quickly. But hey, knock yourself out! If you want to get into the microscopic, lingual perusal of every atom, quark and black hole of your question, read my first post again. The one word answer - catalyst. I’ll take the help. Best to you, Will Harry P.S. Do we share the same mother? If so, I believe there are some rather large checks (cheques) awaiting us! --- --- --- --- WardenDoc (aka, Cerise, David Roupell et al) Subject: 'trying to force Harry to address?' Message: There's you mistake pal. If you knew Harry, you'd know that you don't talk to him like that. In fact, you don't force any New Yorker to do anything. But I have a question for you. How the hell did you go from being a simple kiddie sucking happily on a lollypop - to having a tired brain lost in a maze of convoluted and complicated concepts as depicted in your post? --- --- --- --- - Harry Recipient: Subject: Fuhgeddaboudit! Message: Hey! Who you people talkin' to over here? Fuhgeddaboudit. Semantic dichotomy this! --- --- --- --- --- DominitrixDoc Subject: Re: 'trying to force Harry to undress?' Message: If you knew Harry, you'd know that I do talk to him like that. In fact, I can force any New Yorker to do anything. cheers, DominitrixDoc (Deb, who can't resist satire) --- --- --- --- PrudeDoc (Cerise again) Subject: No way Deb, David A has btdt already Message: at the dungpile already. He ripped the thin veneer off Nigel's blimp. It wasn't a pretty site as we already knew. The hyenas went wild as you'd expect. If you exposed Jack the Ripper to them they'd all gather round and praise him as a 'debonaire playboy'. They'd call white black if pack unity was threatened. --- --- --- --- So is ''Harry'' our old friend, David Andersen, brother of Andrea Erikson or is that Erika Andersen? Sure sounds like him. Funny how the premies love their aliases. I guess it's all just maya anyway and it doesn't matter how deceitful one is. ''It's just a game. So what if most people aren't in on the joke? Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree! After all self-knowledge isn't for everyone. But just because we think a Hindu chubster is god and practice some secret techniques doesn't mean we're in a cult. No, the rest of the world is in a cult. Ha ha hee hee, bolli shree!''

Subject: The fascinating dichotomy From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:27:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All day long I deal with people because that's what I do. I'm a people dealer. And some of these people are smarter than others. Why? Because. But you can almost always tell which ones are the smarter ones by how they talk. Why? Because. Harry, sounds smart in that he can turn a cute phrase, dress it up, dress it down. He can catch a joke and send it back. Decent vocabulary, all that. But when you actually read his comments and really think about them, hell, what do you know? The guy might be otherwise smart but he sure is saying some stupid stuff here! But what can you do? Will's doing it, I guess. All power to him. Of course, committed cult members can't see what's what but fence-sitters are a valid enough audience to make the effort worthwhile. And exes can get a savoury laugh out of it all. Nice try, Will.

Subject: The fascinating bottle in front of me From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:04:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the premies I know booze or smoke more pot than meditate or combine the two. Nothing wrong with that but - since when is being stoned the same as ''satchitanand'' (pure consciousness bliss?) I wonder why they need to smoke pot before meditating? Could it be that meditation is boring for them without getting stoned? On LG, David Roupell said to Deborah (who has started practicing again): I think my current imbalance is due to cannabis elimination. Does anyone have any experience or data on this? I have stopped smoking recently and am sure that there must be some kind of eliminative reaction happening. I certainly have a headache and feel tired in bursts followed by bursts of energy. If anyone knows the time line on this stuff, I'd dig to know when I'll feel 'normal' again. The hardest things is practice, I used to love a smoke an hour beforehand which tended to focus the mind on deeper more profound things in preparation for the Pilates movements to loosen up and relax before the journey within. Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering. You know, tiresome thoughts like what to have for breakfast tomorrow or has so and so got off on their trip to Korea ok? Has the book I sent arrived in Tasmania? Did I change the strings on the PRS this week or last week? I dunno, the mind seems to be able to go on and on and on. At least after a good smoke I used to hear this internal loudspeaker system which would address the mind quite clearly with the words SHUT THE FUCK UP! It worked, I would immediately find myselt getting to much deeper levels very fast But my lungs have asked for a cessation and I am willing to oblige them this time. Me again: Cerise said: ''Nowadays I sit there to practice and have to endure an hour of bland superficial mindshit before getting close to centering.'' And that's after close to 30 years of ''practice.'' When will premies ever ''realize K?'' My friend, CT, who is a dear fellow and an unabashed stoned Hippie Hindu, knows a lot more about ''self-knowledge'' for very good reason. +) He's a nice guy but I can't argue with him as it's like arguing politics with Salam - futile. CT does one thousand pranyamas every morning before practicing and is really a kind, sweet and gentle man, one of the few premies I know who is truly happy with K - a lot like premies were 20 years ago. I guess you really have to be stoned to understand M or K (or any New Age nonsense for that matter.) The irony of this is that CT had dropped out, stopped practicing and had not seen Rev Rawat for 15 years when we met 5 years ago. My satsang got him back into meditating and well......I'm not kicking myself. He really is much happier than he used to be since he started making an effort to be positive and optimistic. He calls it K. I call it ''not being lazy.'' CT expounds thus: It is true Carlos, that we are all incarnations of God, as God is omnipresent..that is when we are in reality..how often are we in reality?..only we know and of course the guru...It is just as easy to become tripped up by the finite mind as it is to go beyond it, once the momentum is firmly established...(Energy follows thought...if I think I am screwed up because of what has occured in the past, then the thoughts that follow that enegy are screwy..If I think I am fully elightened, then the thoughts that follow are higher and deeper but still thoughts)...However, when I meditate and go for that feeling of bliss consciousness, If I let it, that sound of the breath will drown out all thoughts...and if in samadhi, then as Jerry Garcia says: It all rolls into one...there is no sound that can disturb my concentration....the music becomes loud enough to drown out all sounds...the feeling is better than the sum of all my feelings...and the light washes over me, the witness, in waves....I am no different than anyone, nor higher...you are right the opposites of higher or lower are merging in what is Self-existant...in fact, I mostly cease to concern myself with other peoples consciousness...all people, places, and things disappear when I enter the 'within' and a Maharaji says, 'the infinite shows up'....it is this infinite state of consciousness that is beyond it all, including lesser states of consciousness...the amount of time(whatever that is) that I spend in meditation, only helps me with concentration, which Pantajali and everyone else says is the pre-requisite to meditation...so in that sense, there is a stage or state...I have also observed that if I practice for a lesser time in earth hours, there is still an experience that my soul longs for...I thank my lucky stars that I cut out all of the distractions to my meditation time (there is that word again...) because if I had not, then I would never be enjoying how the bliss keeps increasing...this mind,which I call mine, which Ramana Maharshi would merely call 'a bundle of thoughts', has gone through various stages, as will all finite minds. In the early stages, it bothers us, such as when we were teenagers...it assults us with all kinds of self-deprecating notions and as Maharaji says, feelings attach themselves to thoughts...so we have that feeling of not being loved or apreciated or understood...then as the mind matures, it realizes that the witness (us) is no longer bothered by the strong language or harsh negative thoughts and it switches to the subtle aproach...'you've been spending a lot of time in meditation these days, don't you think you should back off a bit, otherwise you'll get spaced out...'haven't you seen how we've gone from where I bothered you to where we are now?'...'I mean aren't we friends you seem so much happier and don't I work well in my intuition mode?' Haven't I helped you where once I distracted you?' and all this is true, we do through the process of meditation, become more together in all ways, including mentally. However, we all know that even this subtle process is part of finite mind...still, it is better and we feel better...it is at this point we realize the difference between being better than and better off than...obviously, someone who is 'training' the mind to be their servant is better off than someone who is being let around by a mind that is finite that thinks it is a person...but it is the person with the maturely developed mind who sees the difference...the words 'our betters' faded out with the Victorian era...people no longer think like that...everyone is striving for equality...how much more equal can we get than when we are in deep meditation?...there is only Oneness, or as Maharaji says, there is only you...Because of establishing a deep meditation practice, it becomes easier to create seperation between the divine energy that is the I AM, which is US in reality and everything else that is going on to distract us...I find Sanskrit chants to be invaluable in helping to thrust me into a deeper state of enjoyment...they resonate with the deepest part of my being and propell me into my center, which is the Spiritual Heart or the heart that Maharaji speaks of...they were brought to us by the realized sages over 6,000 years ago and they still hold true today..that is if you or I or anybody wants to experience the deep abiding peace that comes from the mind being still...then, what takes over is what Maharaji calls Self-knowledge...the knowledge that the Self is the reality and the mind is at best a tool which one day is discarded just as one day we will drop the body...there is nothing to fear in this it happens to everybody and it only applies to the finite realm...the true US is infinite and beyond all the limited mind-body games we are playing..it is fun and ok to play but we should try and keep the awareness of the One Consciousness and the One God, even in our devotion to a master..for it is this pure-awareness that the master is leading us to and helping us as Maharaji says 'I am helping you to the awareness of that which is keeping you alive...And here we go again, one more chance which is being offered in Pasadena...You know I have an Aunt who lives in La Canada which is right next door..she has been a blissful Christian all of her life. After I got Self-Knowledge from Maharaji in 72 in Montrose at Guru Puja, I came out to California to let her and my deceased uncle know that Maharaji was here with an ability to reveal this inner truth, which I called the Holy Spirit..they were happy with their religion, which is fine but they did miss the opportunity to see and perhaps talk with, one day, a living master. Now my uncle has passed away and my aunt is in her early 80's....I just wish I had been as clear as I feel now, then, because I may have been a catlyst for someone I love and who always treated me well, to attain this ultimate of truths...I am content to let her have her religion-dependent happiness but I am going for the ultimate happiness... Yogananda said this: 'Neither birth nor death, nor cast have I...father, mother, have I none. Blessed Spirit I am that..I am the Infinite Happiness... peace and love, CT

Subject: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:08:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Remember signing up with Maharaji so that your 'true self' would appear? Instead, upon leaving the cult, there is very little identity left. We surrended all our own personal goals and dreams in pusuit of Nirvana. Now, it is very difficult to build a normal life. What's left? Not much! Many talents are now gone from decades of not being used. We worked to support our Maharaji habit. He once stated that the ONLY reason he would work would be to see his Guru Maharaji again.' I bought into that. Instead of having a wide variety of friends, I had only cult friends. Upon leaving, those people are gone. Even relationships with family are gone. My aunt missed my mother's funeral because I told her we would be making a stops in NYC and Miami to see Prem Pal before heading to Nova Scotia to bury my mother. That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji was always first for me! So, after decades in this mindset, I realize that I erased my true identity for what I thought was my ticket to heaven. I gave control and responsiblity over to Maharaji. All those years I should have been building a personal life were spent in his stupidity. There is no quick fix to repair all the damage.

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Anandaji To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:26:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am finding that the void is beginning to fill with some interesting things. I am feeling more gratitude for real people in my life (not a stupid guru). I am recovering some talents. I like to write and am writing more and more each day, and it isn't just drival. Spiritually, I am feeling much more alive than before. I am basing spirituality much more on what is real,i.e., the good feelings of really feeling connected to friends, family and even strangers. At first (last December) I felt depressed and confused, but now life is opening up. I feel that, despite hitting 58 next week, there is still time for me to recover much of my true identity. Besides, I believe we actually live forever, which, obviously, should give us more time than we need. Anandaji

Subject: Good to know she was cremated... From: Cynthia To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gail, I know how you feel because I sometimes get a glimpse of talents lost, forsaken, forgotten, though I don't let myself dwell there too much. Sometimes self-pity is good though. We're conditioned not to have any. Who can we pity best but ourselves? No one could do better. Yet in my life I cannot linger there for long because there is so much to live and love for. Thanks for reminding me of that quote about 'working to see my goomraji' because that was my total mindset. Nothing was as valuable as seeing him. That was the cult talk at the time not only by him but in satsang that I gave and others gave. A spiritual self-reinforcement regimen. You're right, Gail, there's no quick fix. No panacea for happiness. That's what's gone wrong in our society too. I kept getting these pop updiet ads in my email account so I finally hit reply and wrote in huge letters: STOP TELLING ME I'M FAT!!!! then I clicked send. How would the internet know how much I weigh? It's ridiculous! I cannot tolerate anyone telling me how to be ever again in my life. I suppose that's the benefit or result of learning the hard way about cults. I cannot exert my energies into other spiritual quests either. My new regimen is to not focus on anything that tells me to change and be different. I'm tired of being told by the 1,150,000 available websites about 'teachings' on Google that they can make me better than I aleady am, because I'm good! All are people who want my money to fix me. It's ridiculous. It's so silly and superficial. You have an identity Gail. It may be out of your focus right now but it surely has to be there otherwise you'd be on a coma ward somewhere.;) I hope you got your Mother to her destination on your way back from the program:):) I laughed when I read your post because I envisioned something quite different than cremated... Be well, Cynthia

Subject: And wouldn't we all have done the same From: Moley To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:07:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course we would... That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). Postponed Birth, Marriage and Death for Rawat! Love to you Moley xxx

Subject: Holi Cow! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:48:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God, Gail, are you serious!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: Richard To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:18:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't recall ever hearing a story so revealing of the depth of programming we were subjected to. We all took detours in our lives to attend to guru puja but yours is the most graphic I've ever heard. The only way I know of to regain our humanity is to engage with humanity. By telling the truth and embracing our family and friends, we can get back on track and love ourselves. All the best to you Gail. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: Seeking 'true selves' cost our identity From: CA To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 13:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gail- for what it's worth, I share your bitterness and regret... I find myself in a similar situation in my life, but hey, what are we going to do? I can only wallo in self pity for so long... it's time to breath and be strong, get back up and start walking toward new goals. Life is in progress and there is a LOT left to live. Rejoice that you are free from the bondage of the cult and its leader. At least that's one mistake we won't be making again.. Good luck to you.

Subject: I gotta get outta here... From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's right folks--I took my deceased mother along in the Motor Home across the border and all (we had to keep the air conditioning running). My aunt was not interested in this pilgrimage. Maharaji That's got to be one of the worst recollections I've read here.I've got to take a break before I lose my sense of humour.I can see the funny side to your story.......only just.

Subject: She was cremated!!!! From: Gail To: PatD Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:01:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha! However, I did have her tombstone with us. It was supposed to be a trip to bury my mother. She had died five months earlier.

Subject: You got me alright From: PatD To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 12:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was seeing your younger self as a cross between Danny deVito & Peter Cushing.....something like that. Naughty!

Subject: Re: She was cremated!!!! From: Jim To: Gail Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I should have read this first.

Subject: Was the 'Mutiny' fully explained? From: la-ex To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 07:07:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After reading Neville's poem, with the reference to the 'uprising' in amaroo, and John MCG's reference to it in his original post, I am still not sure what happened there in the late 90's, to cause the 'insurgence'.....did the workers revolt?....were there mobs with pitchforks at the gates angrily demanding something?.... I'm still not sure what caused the 'divine mutiny', and what the response was... Has this ever been fully explained? If so, where? If not, could someone elaborate?

Subject: the Mutiny From: J McG To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 06:21:36 (PDT) Email Address: johnmac@turboweb.net.au Message: Hi la-ex, I explained the mutiny in my 'trainings' post, now on EPO, if you want a bit of detail. Really, all that happened was that several of us resigned from Amaro's management because of disagreements with the way the place was run. This followed a 'Prague Spring' when some of us in management introduced reforms - such as involving on-the-ground premies in decision-making, and making the minutes of our meetings publicly available. This was quickly crushed. Some of us quit immediately. It was Maharaji who called this a 'mutiny'. Most premies didn't even know it had happened, at the time. Which says something about the group psychology at Amaroo, given that everyone expressed extreme guilt and remorse for their 'sins' in the penitence sessions which were established in the mutiny's wake - i.e. without knowing what these sins even were, for the most part. The mutiny not only led to Valerio's visit (and the penitence sessions where gallons of tears were shed), but, in the longer term, I believe, it may have led to the trainings, which were a kind of mid-life devotional re-boot. Perhaps the mutiny gave Maharaji a little fright. Regards, John

Subject: Hey Bai Ji. From: Tony To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 23:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bai Ji.Remember me.Back in Division street Cooge in about 1976.I was your big brother figure.I was best mates with Keith(having the same surname as you)I just read your dilemma on Recent Exes.Would you like to email me and have a chat.if so I will send you my email here on this forum. I look forward to talking with you. Tony W.

Subject: How're you doing, grandpa? From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 00:26:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If that's you, grandpa, take care of Bai Ji.

Subject: Re: How're you doing, grandpa? From: Tony To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 02:45:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Will Do Pat me ol' mate.How are they hangin'? Cheers, Tony.

Subject: Doing great, thanks. :C) [nt] From: PatC To: Tony Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:41:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh, this is the problem! From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:03:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We took a wrong turn. We were SUPPOSED to be headed for Divine Life not Divine Light! Divine Life www.sivanandadlshq.org/aims.htm

Subject: vomit [nt] From: Anandaji To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 21:47:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Impressive pile! From: PatD To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:57:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder how long it'll take them to rebuild it,should Prem fall down on the job of turning the bombs into petals.Shit,it doesn't belong to him,I'm all confused,probably he'll only save his own H.Q.& could you blame him....crisp the usurpers. An unnamed Indian army officer said the other day.....'25 million dead,we can absorb that,but can they'. Brighter than a thousand suns,too right; these guys better get their act together.Time is coming soon.

Subject: My God Can Beat Up Your God From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:47:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, Divine Life has a huge following among the Indians in South Africa - more than Rawat's. All these Indian gods in bods are just too much for me. I prefer this guys take on it. My God Can Beat Up Your God by Richard Bamford My god can beat up your god. Do you know his name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists. My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply. My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day. When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit. When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books. When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them. When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers. While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well. When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it. While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man. When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit. When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible. While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential. While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life. While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all. While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself. When your god says 'Thou shalt not,' my god says 'You can do anything.' My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do.

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Thorin To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:45:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something is wrong here. The Divine Life society has a line up of sages and saints but somehow have missed out on including Prem. On a different point I have promised myself that I would no longer seek out Gurus for my enlightenment. I am no longer sure - the guy who's picture I have linked to seems totally 'above it all'. Off to Rishekish I go ..... warmly, Thorin www.sivanandadlshq.org/images/neemkaroli.jpg

Subject: Re: Oh, this is the problem! From: Dep To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:03:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC is right. This is Neem Karoli Baba a beautiful guy and the inspiration behind Ram Dass's book Be Here Now. Unfortunately he died in 1973.

Subject: So, what was so beautiful about him? From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:27:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, this well fed Guru, inspired one of his followers to write a new agey book, Be Here Now. I wonder how much of the royalities this Indian Guru, holy man, got via his devotee's donations. What happened to the author? Might have to track him down by his birth name because he wasn't born named Ram Dass. Or did good old Ram just merge with the light or something? Seriously it would be fun to find out. And speaking of enlightened souls, I am having a hard time recalling any good works that Neem left behind in memorial. He did have quite a following, lots of people who would exhale when they needed to inhale, lots of ready hands. So, how exactly did he make this world a better place? It's worth looking at. Tonette

Subject: Richard Alpert From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:34:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He had a stroke a few years ago. He lives here in the Bay Area and still gives a few talks.

Subject: Re: Richard Alpert From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:16:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeez Pat is that a fair description of Ram Dass? He was huge in the 60s and 70s and led many people to the Spirit. IMO one of the greats of the 20th century. But in all fairness I wouldn't expect an oaf like Tonette to know that.

Subject: I did a little experiment From: Tonette, the oaf To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 11:13:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just happened to have a copy of the book 'Remember Be Here Now.' In looking at it again and it's comic page layout, remember the drawings?, I had to laugh at myself. How did I ever see anything remotely sane portrayed in this book? Anyway, my experiment. I asked my daughter, age 11, does that qualify for the heart of a child?, to take a look at the book and read a little. So, what did she think? I quote, 'This is weird mom but it's got cool pictures.' 'What is this book about? It looks crazy.' 'Who's this guy? Does he have cancer or something? He looks really sick.' She was looking at a picture of Ram Dass at the height of his cult inflicted thinking. 'This guy looks really mean or angry. Who is he?' She said this when she was looking at the Maharaji. Then I read her the story about when Ram has a virtual spiritual nervous breakdown because he ate a 'couple of english biscuits.' And how Maharaji was able to discern that Ram ate these biscuits by eating oranges while old Ram was weeping her reply, 'What's wrong with biscuits?' I couldn't resist, I did have her audience after all. I pulled out the 'Peace Bomb' satsang. I got to perhaps the third paragraph, her attention was waining after all, she's had enough bullshit for one day, when she said, 'He's lying.' I did not tell her who or what I was reading. I just asked for what she thought. So, what does this prove? Absolutely nothing! But it's an unadulterated perspective from the heart of a child. For me, I know now that for me to align myself and adopt the type of thinking and values illustrated and portrayed in the likes of 'Be Here Now,' made me oh so ripe for the picking by the likes of Guru Maharaji or any number of other charlatans who operate under the guise of 'spiritual.' You supposedly realize that Guru Maharaji is one and the same of what I described. A fraud. So, why do you keep looking for trouble? Have you not learned a lesson? And how can you not equate Ram Das and his Maharaji with just another scam. Beautiful you say? I did a paper for a class I am taking. I explored, researched, and tallied. How many human lives have been lost since our recorded human history to disease, plaque, famine, natural disasters. In other words, Mother Nature, God if you will. Now how many human lives have been extinguished in war? Although wars are economic in nature, the only way to get them fought is by giving them a religious or moral title for the most part. Guess what? Mankind with his agenda is running neck and neck with mother nature. In other words, we are our own worst enemy. But why am I bothering with this post? Now that's what's really nuts. Tonette

Subject: Re: I did a little experiment From: Cynthia To: Tonette, the oaf Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 15:41:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, Tonette, Your daughter's answers are so telling. Children are not easily fooled. Even the great prem pay pal rawat, LOTU, cannot fool an 11 year old girl. She's smart, Tonette, just like you:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hey Deputy Dog... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:07:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Did you read my post below to you in response to yours regarding Landmark? You seem to have a real attitude. I don't know you, but why all the insults? Tonette is a professional woman who works very hard, she's smart, savy and I consider her my friend. I don't like your tone. What's your problem? I don't understand. If you want to contribute here, contribute! But don't expect to bring up long lost has-been gurus like Ram Dass, who I was reading as a teenager. I'm curious. What exactly is it that you are searching for? This is a serious question. You're not going to find alternative religions, new-age gurus, nor mass therapy advocates here. Don't you know that by now? With all due respect, you've got me baffled. Care to respond? Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Hey Cynthia From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I brought up long lost has-been guru Ram Dass in response to an above post from Thorin. To me he is not a 'has been' and I still very much admire and respect the man.

Subject: Why Ram Dass is indeed a has-been From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:48:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While it's true that Ram Dass continues to impress some and even does good, praise-worthy work for the blind in India (what's it called? The Seva Foundation or something?), he is most definitely a has-been in the sense that the millions who admired and respected his 'wisdom' have all pretty much turned their back on his chatty, hindu rehash as naive nonsense. He was, for a brief period, a generation's leader. Now he's a humourous footnote. Yes, he still has a small following. Or, if you don't like that word, how about contingent of people who'll come out to hear him talk, buy his books. But it's a mere sliver of the block he used to impress. Hey, that reminds me of someone!

Subject: Re: Why Ram Dass isn't-and you're out of date From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 20:38:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For a guy who prides himself on knowing the facts and making real life arguments, you're glaringly uninformed and decades out of date. must be because you're Canadian, ey? [ >:) ] let me surprise you. I was sitting in my doctor's office some months back, waiting to be seen, and happened to peruse the spread of magazines fanned out on the waiting room tables. to my great surprise, there on the cover of Modern Maturity--that bastion of the AARP--was a feature cover article on Ram Dass, with him seated on a balcony at his home overlooking a vista of- I believe- Marin County. He was in a wheechair. The interview was headlined as being an insight into his encounter with a severe disabling stroke and how it changed him. So I turned to it, a bit amazed to be reading about him in the flagship of the AARP, of all places. The interview was more revealing and edifying than the pieces that were out during the time when Timothy LEary was dying of prostate cancer. Tim wa a bit of a rascal to the end. Ram Dass was not, by any stretch of the imagination. He spoke- haltingly and searchingly- of how in the first days following his massive stroke, that his conventional physicians originally walked atound his bed speaking of him in the third person as if he was already dead and useless to do anything for. He spoke of how he lay there, unable to communicate in any form but to open his eyes and follow people around the room. He spoke of how it took hi a number of days to get the gaze of one of the personnel and hold it, until the doctor perceived that he was very much aware and alive in there, and far from ready to be wiped off the slate and forgotten. He spoke of his years and years of practice in Accepting things without prejudice, and how it all came to bear in the face of this new and strange turn of events in his life. His attitude played an immense part in both his team of doctors deciding to go ahead with finding him as much help as there could be had, and his own subsequent ability to be patient and untroubled about seeing whether he would regain any use of his body in the period that followed the acute cerebral event that had occurred. The article went on to explain that the medical community came to view Ram Dass's case as a new, instructive area of awareness from which to understand stroke victims more fully, and that they had incorporated changes into their whole general teaching on the matter as a result of watching his progress, and working with him, and observing him working with himself. One thing that stood out was how he accepted the event without the typical anguish and frustration and self pity that many stroke victims evidence in western society. His was an illuminating example, they said, because he didn't try with typical western egotism and hardheadedness to go back to what he was and had before the event,a course pretty much destined for failure, bitterness, anger, misery and ultimate doom. The writers were putting this up before the geriatric community as a deifferent way for seniors to view and consider their own possible encounters with the experience, perhaps to come or already a fact in their lives. Ram Dass spoke of the gentle surprises that accomapnied his slow but definite recovery; a recovery those original attending doctors initially completely wrote off, as not worth even addressing him as a human being anymore in those first days after the stroke took place. He spoke of his own distant amusement at the long gaps in his memory for words, terms, vocabulary, and appropriate expression to verbalize what he desired to tell the writers. Sometimes the right words would come after long silences. Sometimes no words would come forward at all and he had to just smile and shrug and meet the writer's eyes for connection, when the brain could not produce the sought for terms. But he readily acknowleded that sometimes it was so--yet it didn't detract from the human encounter of the writer and he and how the day felt or went. The writer came away deeply impressed and moved by the complete picture, of a man who was finding his own lifelong path taking this profound turn, and still discovering it served him--and therefore others after him-- in ways deeper than he or anyone else had ever forseen. Ram Dass recovered a surprising amount of function the stroke first changed for him. And once he built up enough strength in his rehab program, he turned some of his effort to working in sharing what had happened to him, with other stroke victims and agencies that help them, as the article itself was an example. There was not a single ooo-wee- wooo new ageism or hindoo snake oilism anywhere in the entire interview. --- -- i last spoke to Ram Dass in the auditorium of East High School in Denver, one to one, standing down on the floor of the orchestra pit. It was 1987 or so. I had not kept in the know, with regard to him, since then. This article was my first news of him in 15 years. so to be blunt, and to the point, James: i suggest you shut your impudent mouth, and respect your venerated elders. They've earned it- the hard way. what have you lived through, to compare? I doubt you could show the same rare grace, when your time comes. You should be so fortunate.

Subject: You sound like a Christian Scientist From: Tonette To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Janet, So, good old Ram has something over on the doctors and the rest of the world, unless you're a spiritual avatar like him. He recovered from a stroke somewhat. That is not news. Lots of people have done it. Science and medicine has yet to begin to understand how seemingly dead neurons can transfer their connections and function to other healthy parts of the brain. Please know also that the initial injury of a stoke causes swelling and sometimes creates a bleed. That also greatly affects functioning of the brain in the immediate weeks following a CVA. The slant of this story which I find troubling and which you have qualified as something for medical history is this: 'He spoke of how he lay there, unable to communicate in any form but to open his eyes and follow people around the room. He spoke of how it took hi a number of days to get the gaze of one of the personnel and hold it, until the doctor perceived that he was very much aware and alive in there, and far from ready to be wiped off the slate and forgotten. The article went on to explain that the medical community came to view Ram Dass's case as a new, instructive area of awareness from which to understand stroke victims more fully, and that they had incorporated changes into their whole general teaching on the matter as a result of watching his progress, and working with him, and observing him working with himself.' Well I would hope this facility and it's members would use Ram's brush with death as a 'new, instructive area of awareness,' since this particular hospital didn't even realize he was alive much less how to help him. Yes, they can use lots of instruction, indeed. That is, if you believe what you wrote in the first place. Then there is this little sentance which pretty much lumps all of us rational, everyday type people, into a category which frankly, I find offensive. 'One thing that stood out was how he accepted the event without the typical anguish and frustration and self pity that many stroke victims evidence in western society. His was an illuminating example, they said, because he didn't try with typical western egotism and hardheadedness to go back to what he was and had before the event,a course pretty much destined for failure, bitterness, anger, misery and ultimate doom.' You know, I've worked with stroke victims. That statement is so profoundly unfair and downright ignorant. Let's look for a glance at Lou Gehrig's Disease. Maybe if Steven Hawkins took a few lessons from good old Ram he might stand to make a vast improvement in how he views and considers his own medical condition, I mean encounter. 'And once he built up enough strength in his rehab program, he turned some of his effort to working in sharing what had happened to him, with other stroke victims and agencies that help them.' How noble, how wonderful. Good, I'm glad he did. People after all do need each other. 'There was not a single ooo-wee- wooo new ageism or hindoo snake oilism anywhere in the entire interview.' Really? I guess I'd better learn what that means exactly. No hindo snake oil, no new ageism. Phrases like; accepting things without prejudice, instructive area of awareness, western egotism, encounters with the experience, lifelong path, how the day felt, meet the writer's eyes for connection, sure sounds warped, I mean new agey, to me. I fact it's practically voodoo. And this Janet, what inpired me to post this in the first place. 'James: i suggest you shut your impudent mouth, and respect your venerated elders. They've earned it- the hard way. what have you lived through, to compare? I doubt you could show the same rare grace, when your time comes. You should be so fortunate.' The arrogance of that statement is only equalled by it's viciousness and anger. Take care Janet. You can believe anything you want. Whatever gets you thru the night. Tonette

Subject: Re: You sound like a Christian Scientist From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tonette, What? No bad words about Christian Science?

Subject: Bad words. No, I am trying to talk with you. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:17:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These words that I type are trying to relay to you and Janet another view point, mine. They are trying to convey how and why I find certain statements, from both of you ludricous, arrogant, ignorant and dangerous. They are not meant to be insulting. This is a forum for pete's sake! You post here looking for responses, just as I do. You post because you may get to help people, just as I do. You love your family, just as I do. We breathe the same air, share the same body parts, except for the reproductive system, you are a guy I take it and hopefully not neutered. Anyway following me so far? You are looking for a spiritual bullet to top Maharaji. You have no problem dabbling in just about anything. Okay. Fine. Go for it. I hope you find a replacement. But I worry about people like you. You could conceivably end up in a worse cult than the one you just recently exited. Maharaji was benign when compared to some cults we all know about. Benign for you and I when compared to some who post here. There are some seriously hurt people from all age groups, children included. Have I insulted you yet? If so, sorry, there is no intent on my part to do that. I want you to understand something about me. It was not just my involvement with Maharaji's teachings that taught me, that brought me to where I am now. How could it have been? Look at the world. Religion, spirituality yes has maybe fed some poor, educated some children, done good works, notable ones in fact. How is that balanced when weighed with all the wars, confusion and cults it's created? Turn on the news. My Allah is going to beat the hell out of your God. My experience as a nurse. There's some real unfair shit that gets dealt to people that did not deserve it! But life's like that, now isn't it? My journey as a mother. Looking at and watching my children grow into the beautiful individuals that they are has taught volumnes more than any teachings of Maharaji or experiences of K. You have a family you mentioned. Children? Surely you must agree with this point of mine. These are the highlights, the major contributing factors that come to mind when I try and tell you and Janet I have no patience, no regard, nothing but disdain and disgust when I read crap like, Love is energy and Ram Das was something to be admired. But this is a chat board. The worst sort of communication in that, it is non-verbal. So easy to get the wrong impression, so easy to get insulted. So I will not be insulted, nor hurt by your one line sentence to me about bad words. But I do get a very clear message that you are not open to a person such as myself. The conversation is over on your part. Yes? No? But, I will not hestitate if I read something written by you, Janet or anyone for that matter, that strikes my fancy to reply to. Don't worry, I don't post nearly as much as you. Do not read here everyday. I don't know much about Christian Science, not in depth. But from what I've read there's no 'science' to prove it's claims and it certainly doesn't work for the vast majority. Give me an antiobiotic as opposed to Christian Science if I have pneumonia. Chemo if I have cancer. A vaccine if there is a Smallpox outbreak. Frankly the followers, believers of this 'faith' sound almost as nuts as the premies who believe M might be divine. But those are bad words about it. You asked, should I have said nothing at all? Take care, Scott Tonette

Subject: Thanks, Tonette From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 17:24:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps Janet has never known any stroke victims. Ram was typical except of course everything that happens to these New Ajists is miraculously special and different from us heathens. I'm glad you had the patience to spell it out for Janet. I couldn't even be bothered to read it after the first paragraph. In fact I can't be bothered to read most of Janets' posts lately. She definitely needs a New Age forum where this garbage can go unchallenged. But I'm sure she has already found her birds of a feather on the net - it's full of this kind of crap.

Subject: It's tiresome From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 18:49:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's people like Janet at times and Deputy Dog all the time that make me wonder if they have learned anything from their brush with the cult. And I say brush because unlike so many here, Livia, Bai Ji, Jean-Michael and many others come to mind, they lost so little in the process. Their ignorance and their self serving statements do little to hide the fabric though of who they are as people. Uneducated, angry, self centered. You might be fooled at first as a newcomer but it doesn't take long to see the real mccoy behind these black and white words. I'm tired of it. I've stopped reading her posts too until one appeared in the side line of this thread about Ram Das. Deputy is such a waste of breath to try and communicate with. I had to say something. Imagine touting the AARP as a pinnacle of medical journalism, her defense of Ram as something oh so elevated and her remark to Jim. There is hardly ever a reason to be ugly like that. I hope Janet will take you up on your offer. It's generous of your time and effort. So, I should really be 'thanking you,' Pat. Warmly, Tonette

Subject: BEST OF FORUM From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:06:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I'm not joking. These two paragraphs are brilliant: ''It's people like Janet at times and Deputy Dog all the time that make me wonder if they have learned anything from their brush with the cult. And I say brush because unlike so many here, Livia, Bai Ji, Jean-Michael and many others come to mind, they lost so little in the process. Their ignorance and their self serving statements do little to hide the fabric though of who they are as people. Uneducated, angry, self centered. You might be fooled at first as a newcomer but it doesn't take long to see the real mccoy behind these black and white words.'' Janet and Scooby are not the worst examples of emotional subjectivism and prescientific irrationalism but they do embody one of the worst aspects of New A Jism - a real disrespect for western civilization's values, language, thought and science. These guys are the Luddites of the rational mind and objectivism. You're so damn ''prickly'' Tonette, I get almost get ''gooey.'' :P:C)

Subject: I'm glad you liked it but 'best of,' no way From: Tonette To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:20:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, that's sweet. It actually made me blush. Have you been drinking? Just kidding. I'm really hoping this thread is not too old. I want to hear from Janet or Deputy. Their thinking alarms me in that, and I'll say it again, they learned nothing from the con that they bought into, at whatever level they participated in. I do not mean to trash spirituality, whatever that means to any particular person. No, I really don't. I just can not stomach having to read someone 'singing the praises of' another Guru wannabe, a Guru has been, or worse, a person who is esteemed because he followed either one of the former. Take care, Hope your summer is all that you want and more. Give regards to Chuck for me. Love, Tonette

Subject: Sure he's a nice guy. So's Billy Graham From: PatC To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:11:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's just another preacherman, Janet - making a living out of the god biz. And that makes him not such a good guy in my eyes. It makes him just another huckster.

Subject: So what is this? Be Here Now-lite? From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 21:29:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You completely miss the point. I'm sure Ram Dass is doing all sorts fo good things and setting a wonderful example of graciousness in his infirmity and all that. Good for him. Mind you, he knows the world's watching, he cares about his legacy as the man who taught a whole generation of hippies transcendental wisdom and acceptance. Leary had a stake in perpetuating his shtick to the end. So does Ram Dass. But the point, Janet, was that he taught a whole, big program that now ain't worth shit. Millions took him and it seriously, now only a few hardcore holdouts believe any of that crap. That's the point.

Subject: Re: no, I see the obverse completely From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 04:02:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, if he had not had the stroke, perhaps i might see your point. But I now think the opposite, precisely because of the stroke. If the whole lifetime of hippie frufru was vapid and pointless, then when the stroke came, Alpert/Ram Dass would have found himself no better off, indeed stripped to the marrow, helpless and bankrupt with nothing whatsoever to show for his colorful life, and the doctors would have left him to die like a rotting vegetable in that bed. I saw the very opposite, in immersing myself in that unexpected article, however. The stroke turned out to be--no pun intended at all- the acid test of his entire lifetime of exploration and practice. When he had everything taken away from him except his consciousness, he found that he could begin from just that, and come back from literally zero and live yet again. I think his most recent chapter with experiencing the stroke, and not knowing what would happen from there on out, and how his lifetime served him in ways that surprised even his doctors, stands on its own as proof that what he spent his life on/in was not merely grandstanding. your view of it is blindingly cynical, and i suspect were you to have a stroke yourself like his, that brash front would evaporate instantly when you came to consciousness and realized you were helpless, and that your fate, the continuation of your very life, your future, was no longer in your control. do you understand that immediately following the stroke, that he was helplessly paralyzed in an ICU bed, and that the doctors thought he was a goner? that they took his case for lost, and weren't goint to do anything for him but leave him on life support until someone made the legal decision whether to pull the plug? do you get it, that it took him several days to get someone's eye and by expression in the eyes alone, indicate that he didn't want to be left for dead, that he was still in there, and conscious, understanding what he was hearing them say to each other about him--and very much wanted someone to look closer, to notice he was alive and aware and not ready for being dead yet? that is a hell of a far distance from giving lectures and touring for speakers fees, Jim. In a clinch like that, you don't think in the cynical terms of 'oh well, it's my shtick and it pays the bills'! In a clinch like that, you're helplessly paralyzed and begging with your eyes, for someone to notice that you want to keep your life and not watch someone pull your plug while you can't tell them you're in there. If what he lived his life for was so irrelevant and superfici, why on earth would the AARP find his story so compelling as to make it their cover article? The American Association of Retired Persons, and Modern Maturity are not what you would call hippie oriented or new age demographics by any strecth of the imagination. Yes, granted, the first line of baby boomers are hitting the retirement at 55 boundary presently, and the first Rock n Roll generation is reaching the doors of geriatric membership, so the flavor of Seniority is going to change, as that generation [ours!] has altered each stage of life it has arrived in-- but the great body of the AARP is older than our generation. it includes our parents, too, whose values and world were very different from ours. The AARP would never think of printing an interview that didn't apply to all of its readership, and they certainly didnt go to interview the man because they wanted hippie new age sensation. I beleive his stroke, if anything, demonstrated powerfully when it really mattered, that what he spent his life learning turned out to be valid in a way no one could have forseen. and the comparison to billy graham is a false one. billy graham never went out on the edge and took acid when it was uncharted territory, nor forsook his ego, or his culture and upbringing to explore the limits of consciousness and human potential. he never gave himself over to an effort the likes of Seva foundation. and graham was/is a racist to boot, as some of the recently released nixon material disgustingly reveals. don't even speak of the two in the same room. If they WERE in the same room, Ram Dass would surpass and eclipse Graham the whole time. Ram Dass lives his talk. he doesnt just walk it. He radiates it. Even from a wheelchair.

Subject: Janet, I agree 100% [nt] From: Dep To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 14:53:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I'm missing the boat!! From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 19:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got to start subscribing to Modern Maturity and AARP right away to get some real information. I guess the ANA, AORN and JAMA journals really missed the boat on this incrediable story. And Jim if you really want to understand, you're just going to have a stroke, you cynical, mindless bastard.

Subject: Yes, but your opinions are worthless From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 15:37:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's true, Dog, your opinions on these issues are worthless. But then that's what you think too, right? You refuse to examine them honestly and instead call yourself a 'gooey' person who doesn't go for the mental stuff anyway, right? So what are opinions to you? Nothing? And that will go for your opinion about whether or not Ram Dass is a has-been too. Why not?

Subject: Sure, if you buy it, I guess From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 10:16:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, You're obviously very impressed with Ram Dass in this (final?) chapter of his life. But however gracious and noble you might find him, it doesn't make any of his hindu, God-realization shtick, any more valid and THAT's what made him famous, THAT's how we know him and THAT's where he influenced millions and millions.

Subject: To Dep From: Thorin To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:47:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shucks Dep So the guy inspired a few tens of thousands of followers and got some guys to write some books. So what? Where did that lead his followers? Why do you find him so uplifting? Has it helped you, indeed has anything helped you? I normally resist being negative on this forum (or indeed anywhere I go) but to describe Tonnete as an oaf is simply beyond the pale. I have always found Tonette to be one of the most inspired, sane, down-to-earth, rationale persons, a person that is filled with tons of compassion, understanding, humour and intelligence. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Get real Dep, examine your mindset, have a vacation, chill out, show some love. But for heavens sake don't be so wrapped up in your little beliefs and adapt such an ongoing aloof tone in 'most' of your posts. This spiritual chauvinism you display really grates. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Tonette's not an oaf, Dep From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She's my kind of gal. Alpert's Be Here Now did change my life when I first read it while doing a lot of acid in a commune in Hackney. It also nearly drove me nuts trying to be here now. I got suckered by that one. How can you strive to be here now when you are here now? It also primed me to be conned by a sleazy Hindu guru. I think what Tonette and Jim and I are trying to tell you is that we are already enlightened, already being here now, already quite satisfied with what we've got and don't have the same sort of driven spiritual dementia that drove us all into the cult many years ago. But I doubt if you'll see that because it seems as if you believe that human beings are somehow missing something vital which they have to seek and find instead of seeing that ordinary folk are perfect just the way they are. All this spiritual stuff that you go on about really is only pursued nowadays by stoned hippie Hindus who would be better off getting an education and decent jobs. A lot of us have moved on from the sixties. Have you? Still stoned after all these years?

Subject: Permanent superficiality -- scary, isn't it? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:42:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog cannot see below the surface of anything. Why? Because that would entail thinking, analysis, a more sophisticated and worldy approach to life. Dog's just not there. He's willfully, permanently superficial.

Subject: That's Ram Dass' guru Maharaji From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For your amusement - Mark Twain on God: The Bible tells about creation. God did it. He did not call it the 'universe.' That name is modern. His whole attention was upon our world. He constructed it in five days?and then? It took him only the one remaining day to make 20 million suns and 80 million planets and 8 billion galaxies. Darwin was wrong. Man has certainly, obviously, not ascended from any lower animals. He has, quite obviously, descended from the Higher Animals, the apes and primates, to the lower animal that man now is?(stupidly fighting over religious creeds and doctrines?man made). Now I am going to really put a strain upon you. Man thinks he is the noblest work of God. This is the truth I am telling you. Man really believes that. He even hires preachers to tell him so once a week. And very few even laugh. Man, the special pet, whom God has given mumps, measles, whooping cough, croup, colds, asthma, bronchitis, itch, cancer, cholera, typhus, piles, constipation, warts, pimples, boils, corns, tumors, insanity, jaundice, bunions, abscesses, diseases of every organ in the body, but why continue the list??

Subject: Is this your website, Dep? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:51:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just kidding but this guy has got almost as big a smorgasbord of spirituality as you. Actually I just wanted to start a new thread so that I could delete the ****crap below without making the attack on Moley stick out too much. PS Moley - when I can I delete that crap? Is this your website, Dep? www.heartspace.org/misc/teachers.html

Subject: Actually, Phil's an, um ... ex? From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:00:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's his White Pages entry: Servedio, Phil Date: March 19, 1997 Email: philserve@yahoo.com Resides: San Rafael, CA USA Was a premie from: 1975 At age: 20 Premie until: 1985 Premie houses/ashrams lived in: Buffalo, NY 1975 - 1985 Personal web page: http://www.heartspace.org Web page topic: Essays, journals & poetry on spiritual realization,understanding & practice

Subject: Phil's OK From: gerry To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:43:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I emailed Phil a few years back. Nice enough guy. I think he's enlightened now or something. About time, I'd say.

Subject: Oh my God!!!!! From: Gail To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hope this guy finds what he's looking for. He's a seeker for sure! I wonder how many cults he has to join to get the message. I'm surprised he hasn't given up by now.

Subject: No PatC, it is not my website, and . . . From: Dep =) To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:53:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I find it very interesting. This guy Phil Servedio seems like a really interesting guy who is living a rich full life getting into what he loves. I have added his site to my favourites. Thanks! Phil has outdone me big time and done way more than I have. In the 80s I started a family and couldn't afford to go gallivanting around India. However, I have read about 90% of the books he recommends and like Phil was hugely influenced by Alan Watts. I also started meditating with TM but have also taken est (aka The Landmark Forum) which he hasn't done. The latest thing I'm into is The Work by Byron Katie. She has a book out entitled Loving What Is which I heartily recommend. Katie feels that everyone is a mirror image of yourself, your own thinking coming back at you. It just goes to prove that there are a lot of interesting and rewarding meditations, philosophies, yogas (raj, hatha, raj, and jnana), and places to visit out there. Maybe that's where many of the exes who have moved on have gone. As M said years ago, 'If you like it fine. If you don't like it walk.' Well, for a 'soul man' there are a lot of interesting and transforming places to walk to and maybe even disappear from. You can light a candle or curse the darkness. Just keep coming home to yourself. You are the one you have been waiting for. =)

Subject: Well since you're here again From: hamzen To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 13:41:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interested in carrying on our discussion re the racist attacks in oldham last summer? The asian community there were invaded by nasty and brutish combat 18 (a neo-nazi group) football hooliagans from two different teams who would normally fight each other. They decided to call a truce and indulge themselves in a little spot of 'paki-bashing' as they so quaintly call it. Now from your comment re fighting or defending yourself being pointless what would you have done in their situation, just let them walk through that community, maybe torch a few houses, beat up a few pakis? Would you defend your family if they were attacked? It's all very well having sweet and soulful spiritual views, but it only works because you abnigate responsibility and rely on others to deal with the 'messy' situations. Personally that's what I hate about 'spiritual' communities, an inability to cope with the brutishness ogf this world. One of the reasons I left premiedom. In the 70's here we had an upserge of racism also, and while we were all saying how crazy this world is, and letting the racists get away with blue murder, the punks and anti-racists got in there and mixed it, and lo and behold they were beaten, and the racist surge dropped off. Maybe you think it was all our meditating that really saved the day, that and the guru's 'compassion'.. People like combat 18 and for that matter adolf hitler revel in the kind of pacificism you and other new agers and spiritual idealists exhibit.

Subject: Yes, I thought you'd like it.... [nt] From: PatC To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 11:32:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I don't want to spar with you, however... From: Tonette To: Dep =) Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When are you going to come home? You Deputy. When are you going to realise you have never left? When are you going to get tired of focusing on yourself? Don't you get tired of being full of 'yourself?' Are you that wonderful of company? Haven't you had every waking moment and all those in between of your life to get enough of 'yourself?' To figure it out already? The big 'Truth?' If you want to know what you are really made of study anatomy and physiology. Take a gander at your cells thru an electron microscope. But if you want to know about life and it's purpose extend yourself. Try doing something for someone else for starters. I just don't get you. Is it Arabic or Russian that you are speaking? I mean no offense, truly. Tonette

Subject: Re: I don't want to spar with you, however... From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:29:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When am I going to come home? Every time I meditate. When am I going to realise I have never left? Well, I actually did leave. I once was lost and now I'm found. When are you going to get tired of focusing on yourself? Don't you get tired of being full of 'yourself?' Are you that wonderful of company? I have a large family that I love and when I meditate I lose myself. Full of myself? I know who I am without my story. Haven't you had every waking moment and all those in between of your life to get enough of 'yourself?' To figure it out already? The big 'Truth?' Depends on what you mean by 'yourself.' I like spirituality and the same kind of stuff Phil Servedio likes. Sorry, don't like golf. If you want to know what you are really made of study anatomy and physiology. Take a gander at your cells thru an electron microscope. Wow! Find myself by looking outside. What a fantastic concept! What I've discovered is that when I tried everything and nothing else worked, the last place I looked was inside. That worked. But if you want to know about life and it's purpose extend yourself. Try doing something for someone else for starters. How do you know I don't? Maybe my posting here is doing something for others. Many have told me they like my posts. You are obviously not one of them. I just don't get you. Is it Arabic or Russian that you are speaking? I don't get you either. I speak English. I mean no offense, truly. . No, and why would I take offence? I mean, why would I take offence when someone insults me?

Subject: I didn't insult you, no I didn't. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:56:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked questions and you answered them sort of. And I did mean it when I said I meant no offense. I have no idea what makes you really tick. You're such a complex quagmire of spiritual concepts. There's lots of people that make the world go around. You impress me as the type of person that if we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Deputy Dog: Oh yeah, it is beautiful but the sky is pink. BTW, what is your real first name? And how did I insult you? What was it that hurt your feelings? Tonette

Subject: Re: I didn't insult you, no I didn't. From: Dep To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:08:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked questions and you answered them sort of. And I did mean it when I said I meant no offense. I have no idea what makes you really tick. You're such a complex quagmire of spiritual concepts. There's lots of people that make the world go around. You impress me as the type of person that if we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Deputy Dog: Oh yeah, it is beautiful but the sky is pink. BTW, what is your real first name? And how did I insult you? What was it that hurt your feelings? Tonette --- Tonette, No you really didn't insult me. You couldn't do that. You did confuse me though. You see people like Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Nanak, Socrates etc. have all said that the truth is within. Then you came along and said it could be seen outside in a microscope. Then I thought 'Gee maybe Tonette's right and Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Nanak, Socrates etc. are all wrong.' And I did have a moment of confusion, I must admit. If we were looking at a sunset together a conversation might go like this: Tonette: Look isn't that sunset beautiful? The sky is so purple! Dep: Yeah, I've gotta run because I don't like hanging out with people like you.

Subject: Whatever. Oil and water will never mix. From: Tonette To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 09:29:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dog, Christ, what is your first name at least. Deputy Dog seems so juvenile! Anyway, what I meant by suggesting you take a gander into a microscope is in fact, that if you want to see the real inside of yourself, take a look at your cellular self. After all, that is another way to look inside. It's all inside of you, perfectly orchestrated, recently evolved. It's all there, already. These spiritual masters are not selling anything new. And frankly, how can you credit the likes of Jesus, Budda, Lao Tzu, ect., ect., ect.? Ever meet them? Trust the translations do you? Don't you think some of their words might of been just a little changed over the years to suit the agenda of the leaders at that time? History has more enlightened souls than carter ever had little liver pills. So, where is the Jesus of today? Who is the latest Lao Tzu? I'll tell you who. It's people like Maharaji, the Catholic Church with their 'holy pope,' Ram Dass and his ugly fat guru, that's who here. And they feed on and prey on the likes of you. Never stop looking for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry you don't like people like me. Kinda limits your horizons now doesn't it?

Subject: Like I said -- MAJOR disconnect happening From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 17:05:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog cannot for the life of him understand how blindered he is. What would be truly interesting, if the world cared that much, if Dog wasn't just another 2/3 finished life in a world of almost six billion more, would be to actually force him to learn something outside of his stupid scriptural stuff. Some science, is what I'm thinking. But, alas, that won't happen and Dog will continue to sleepwalk through this forum like Sweet Pea in an old Popeye cartoon.

Subject: study anatomy - does navel-gazing count? [nt] From: PatC To: Tonette Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:44:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PatC, I thought you liked meditation? [nt] From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:10:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No, Dep, I don't like meditation From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love meditation. BTW, Scocrates never said anything about ''looking within.'' I study Greek history and philosophy and have never read that. Of course Socrates left no writing and all we know about him is what Plato wrote about him. Now please point out where Socrates says that. Is it in Plato's Symposium? Yes, Buddha and the rest of the Indian imbeciles you mention did say that. Do you know what they meant? All they meant was that your happiness is up to you and not someone else - including socalled masters.

Subject: Re: No, Dep, I don't like meditation From: Dep To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 18:38:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love meditation. BTW, Scocrates never said anything about ''looking within.'' I study Greek history and philosophy and have never read that. Of course Socrates left no writing and all we know about him is what Plato wrote about him. Now please point out where Socrates says that. Is it in Plato's Symposium? Yes, Buddha and the rest of the Indian imbeciles you mention did say that. Do you know what they meant? All they meant was that your happiness is up to you and not someone else - including socalled masters. --- Socrates never said anything about 'looking within?' Didn't he say 'Know thyself?' Doesn't that mean the same thing? On the other hand, maybe Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu were all superficial and suffering from a MAJOR disconnect? PatC, I wouldn't be posting here if you hadn't asked if the Phil Servideo website was mine. (BTW Phil is also also suffering from a MAJOR disconnect.) So don't encourage me PatC. And I know that my happiness is up to me because I have never asked an Indian imbecile to meditate for me.

Subject: No, Dep, it's not the same From: PatC To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 19:33:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''Socrates never said anything about 'looking within?' Didn't he say 'Know thyself?' Doesn't that mean the same thing?'' Of course it does not mean the same thing. If he had meant ''look within'' he would have said so. He said ''Know oneself.'' In Plato's Alcibiades I and Alcibiades II, Socrates is having a discussion with his lover, Alcibiades. Alcibiades was a teenager when he first fell in love with Socrates. He was gossiped about by the Athenians because he had pursued the older man and had not been pursued by him as was the custom. He had in fact been rejected by Socrates when he was a boy and that had hurt his reputation as a teenage stud. Socrates was in fact not much interested in the Athenian penchant for pederasty. (Plato used the love of Alcibiades for Socrates as the epitome of true love - the ''marriage of true minds.'' From this we get the ideal of ''Platonic'' or pure love.) Alcibiades was also the scion of one of the wealthiest families and had to take his place in the ruling class. It was probably because of Socrates influence over the sons of the ruling class (they followed him around the agora and hung on his every word) that he was condemned to death for ''corrupting the youth of Athens.'' Also he didn't fancy little boys and criticised men who did. And all the good old boys did fancy youths so Socrates was hated by the establishment. In the following dialogue between Socrates and Alcibiades they are talking about Alcibiades' pending responsibility as one of the ruling class. There is a long discussion where Socrates questions the young man about how he can ever rule if he is so ignorant and probably knows less than those whom he has rule. It is an exhaustive inventory of Alcibiades ignorance. Finally they reach that part of the discourse wherein Socrates says those famous words (which really are not too cosmic I'm afraid.) All that Socrates is doing is deflating Alcibiades' ego, showing him that he is ignorant and unfit to rule. SOCRATES So is there anything of the soul more divine than this, which is concerned with knowing and thinking? ALCIBIADES There isn't. SOCRATES Then this part of her is like the divine, and one looking into this also comes to know the divine, and thus would especially know oneself. ALCIBIADES Apparently. SOCRATES And do we agree that to know oneself is to be sensible? ALCIBIADES Certainly. SOCRATES So then not knowing ourselves nor being sensible are we able to know our own belongings bad and good? ALCIBIADES How could that be, Socrates? SOCRATES For perhaps it appears to you impossible that not knowing Alcibiades it's possible to know that Alcibiades' belongings are Alcibiades'. ALCIBIADES It's impossible, by God. SOCRATES Nor even that our belongings are ours, if we don't know ourselves? ALCIBIADES How could we? SOCRATES And then if not our belongings, not the business of our belongings either? ALCIBIADES Apparently not. SOCRATES And whoever is ignorant of one's own belongings, would also probably be ignorant of others', and if of others' belongings, then of others' business. ALCIBIADES What then? SOCRATES Then one will also be ignorant of the state's business. ALCIBIADES Necessarily. SOCRATES Then such a person could never be a statesman. ALCIBIADES Of course not. SOCRATES Nor an economist either. ALCIBIADES No. SOCRATES Nor will they know what they're doing. ALCIBIADES They won't. SOCRATES And won't the ones not knowing make mistakes? ALCIBIADES Certainly.

Subject: Socrates, the poster boy for 'Prickly' From: Jim To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 20:31:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some time ago Dog posted some junk from Alan Watts about how people were 'gooey' or 'prickly'. The former feel, the latter think. Something like that. Dog explained how, seeing as he's gooey, he doesn't have to know anything. (Oh, besides knowing the unknown, or the unthinkable, or that which cannot be explained, or the peace that passeth all understanding, etc.). Socrates, however, was the complete epitome of prickly. He wanted to know and he wanted to use his mind fully to find out. He enthusiastically explored whatever 'scientific' knowledge there was in his day and questioned everything. Dog's exploitation of that ambiguous phrase flies in the face of each and every one of Socrates' dialogues.

Subject: It's spiritual Pokemon From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:12:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend's kid used to be totally into Pokemon. The ad slogan is Gotta collect 'em all! or something similar, referring to the caché of accumulating all of the 250 characters available. Similar to the Beanie Baby fascination. In this guy's case, one guru wasn't enough so why not collect 'em all? When his awakening comes, he'll be multiple ex-ing big time.

Subject: Re: It's spiritual Pokemon From: PatC To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:35:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just loved the picture of the Jain master, Muni Sushil Kumar, with the Post-It note over his mouth. :P And his time with Da Freejohn: ''One of the most important events was the beginning of the unraveling of the causal knot on the right side of the heart...'' Perhaps he should have used a granny knot.

Subject: Re: It's spiritual Pokemon From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:45:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Are you the PatC that was not posting again for awhile? so you need help exiting the exes huh! LOL Bolly

Subject: His site gives EPO a good review! From: cq To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Surprisingly enough, that guy's site has links not only to M's homepage but also to EPO! About which he has this to say: 'ex-premie.org, an excellent resource site for former devotees of Guru Maharaji. In addition to the usual pro-con polemics, it gives an analysis of the historical background of the tradition from which Maharaji emerged.' link here www.heartspace.org/misc/links.html

Subject: Most of the anti-cult websites... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:16:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most of the cult awareness websites have a link to EPO where ever DLM/Maharaji/EV/ are mentioned. I guess they are impressed by the great efforts of the people who have so diligently put the site together.

Subject: This is an anti-cult website??? From: cq To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 04:10:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Phil's put together an extremely impressive personal website there, but no way could it be described as an anti-cult website! Have a look (link above) and see what you think. www.heartspace.org www.heartspace.org/ www.heartspace.org/images/Indra_r15_c26.jpg

Subject: Dalai Lama From: Chris McGillon To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:17:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Platitudes of the Dalai Lama Curious, even disturbing, is the way so many non-Buddhist Australians blur the lines between respect, reverence and worship in their attitudes toward the Dalai Lama. Critical reflection on the man and his message hardly seems to figure in their estimation of him. This is not entirely the fault of the Dalai Lama. His visit to Australia last week was not a promotional tour and he is adamant that he is not in the business of seeking converts. Indeed, the Dalai Lama consistently cautions people against switching from their religion to his or believing that they can fully understand even the meditative traditions of Buddhism without a strong background in Buddhist practice and theory. But you don't have to become a devotee to nonetheless be taken in. The Dalai Lama seeks to excite the 'innate spiritual nature' of people so that they might choose kindness and affection in their relations to others rather than anger, hatred or the temptation to exploit. Christian church leaders promote the same message, but when they do they tend to be ignored or scorned, whereas the Dalai Lama is regarded as a welcome breath of fresh air. This is partly because his approach is intuitive rather than discursive, inclusive rather than exclusive, gently encouraging rather than reproachful or overly instructive. With the Dalai Lama one seems to be getting the essence of religious insight without the froth and bubble of dogma and doctrine or the hard and fast rules of moral behaviour. The trouble is that when religion is leeched in this fashion of too much content, all that is left is platitudes - or worse, banalities. Take the Dalai Lama's answer to a question put to him at the National Press Club in Canberra on Friday about his views on euthanasia. Like abortion, he said through an interpreter (thus choosing his words carefully), 'these are very complex issues on which it is very difficult to make generalised statements because the individuality of each context would be so different that it is something that needs to be judged - the merits of its decision - based upon context by context'. You would get more enlightenment than this listening to Lisa tackle a moral dilemma in an episode of The Simpsons. In fact many of the Dalai Lama's comments on international problems and their solutions - the sort of complex issues on which he is prepared to make generalised statements - tend towards the naivety of a primary school pupil at an end-of-year speech night. When children talk about the need for more caring and sharing in the world, adults smile knowingly - which is to say that we, unlike they, appreciate life's complexities. Ironically, when the Dalai Lama says the same thing, we call it wisdom and applaud. The other part of the Dalai Lama's appeal is his exoticness. He is unusual, as well as untypical, which is interesting in itself but also means he represents something people can dabble in without understanding too much about it and thus having to be fully challenged, engaged or, dare one say, committed. The Dalai Lama, of course, plays down his distinctiveness and for this he can and should be criticised. He claims to be just another ordinary human being but nothing could be further from the truth. How many ordinary human beings are believed by millions of people to be the living emanation of the Buddha of compassion? How many have won a Nobel Peace Prize (as the Dalai Lama did in 1989)? How many ordinary human beings are global celebrities with a global network of powerful and influential friends? How many hob-nob it with movie stars or have had Hollywood genuflect before them as the Dalai Lama did when Martin Scorsese made Kundun in 1997 - a film that was virtually an authorised biography of the Tibetan leader? The Dalai Lama's popularity in the West says much about its need for heroes, its search for meaning, its longing for those things (holiness, integrity) that seem to be missing from many of its institutions. And yet Western culture stands for just about everything a Buddhist is supposed to renounce. The relationship, in other words, is intriguing and as it develops it may benefit both sides in ways that can't now be imagined. But nobody is going to get too far unless each party is frank with the other and dismissive of mere pap.

Subject: Platitudes of the Maharaji of Malibu From: PatC To: Chris McGillon Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:51:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Curious, even disturbing, is the way so many Australian premies blur the lines between respect, reverence and worship in their attitudes toward Maharaji. Critical reflection on the man and his message hardly seems to figure in their estimation of him. This is not entirely the fault of Maharaji. His visit to Australia last month was not a promotional tour and he is adamant that he is not in the business of seeking converts. Indeed, Maharaji consistently cautions people against switching from their religion to his or believing that they can fully understand even the meditative traditions of self-knowledge without a strong background in watching videos for five months. But you don't have to become a devotee to nonetheless be taken in. In fact many of Maharaji's comments on international problems and their solutions - the sort of complex issues on which he is prepared to make generalised statements - tend towards the naivety of a primary school pupil at an end-of-year speech night. When children talk about the need for more caring and sharing in the world, adults smile knowingly - which is to say that we, unlike they, appreciate life's complexities. Ironically, when the Maharaji says the same thing, we call it wisdom and applaud. The other part of Maharaji's appeal is his exoticness. He is unusual, as well as untypical, which is interesting in itself but also means he represents something people can dabble in without understanding too much about it and thus having to be fully challenged, engaged or, dare one say, committed. Maharaji, of course, plays down his distinctiveness and for this he can and should be criticised. He claims to be just another ordinary human being but nothing could be further from the truth. How many ordinary human beings are believed by millions of people to be the living emanation of Krishna?

Subject: The first time I saw your face From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:16:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Out of interest, does anyone recall ever taking someone to see Maharaji for the first time where the introducee was utterly entanced by Maharaji in the way that premies often/usually are? And by this I don't mean someone who has listened to large amounts of satsang or whatever, and has already formulated an idea about him - I am talking about a merely curious person. I am asking this because I remember taking a number of people to introductory programmes and then being bemused by their reaction to him - they generally didn't particularly take a liking to him. Two friends came away saying they were most unimpressed. Another friend asked him a question during a question and answer session and was dissatisfied with the answer he gave her. And another friend didn't like the way he 'shouted' and appeared to 'patronise' the audience. They all came away pretty turned off and with no desire to repeat the experience or take it any further. In contrast to this, a number of other friends who had already listened to a large amount of satsang, liked what they saw and mostly did wish to pursue things further. At the time I rationalised this by telling myself that the first group just 'weren't ready' or 'weren't open enough'. However, another explanation and one that occurs to me now, is that one's appreciation of the live experience of Maharaji is very much coloured by the ideas one already has about him. It does seem odd to me that someone of, according to premies, so much wisdom and understanding of life etc should be so unimpressive to the 'lay' person. What does anyone else think? And has anyone else noticed the same phenomenon? Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The first time I saw your face From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:48:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My wife's mother accompanied us to a program with M at Avery Fisher Hall in New York. Quite the venue. Somehow we were given seats in the first few rows. Her most exciting moment was being ushered to her seat by Michael Nouri - now that really impressed her. Later we asked The Question 'So what did you think?' Her wise reply was: 'He's just like Billy Graham.' LOL Another time my parents visited me during a Kissimmee program. I proudly walked them through the encampment whereupon they were panhandled by a premie. Then M arrived in his Jeep Wagoneer to a hearty round of Bhole Shri's. Much later they told me: 'With all the problems at Jonestown, when we saw that scene we were very worried.' Gotta trust those first impressions. Another time Sondra Ray, a spiritual seminar leader, came to see M in Miami. Her response was well, er cosmic man. She said: 'As soon as he walked out my Third Eye just opened right up.' I'd say a little wish fulfillment was going on there.

Subject: Re: The first time I saw your face From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:59:45 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Livia. I was born in 1967 to two young idealistic hippie style parents. They divorced when I was 3 or 4 years old. My father got into gmj and then managed to get my mother into it too. Then my father got a new 'old lady' and got her into gmj too. Meanwhile my mom went through 3 consecutive relationships with local premies, eventually remarrying a devoted lifer premie. I myself was 'given' knowledge at age 7! Really, how stupid. Anyway the point I am making and have made before is that I was dragged along into the gmj cult, basically with no choice. Unlike Abi and some other young premies I've heard from, I thought it was weird and didn't really like it from the start. When I got old enough (10-12) to form my own opinions I openly denounced and ridiculed the whole stupid thing, especially the fat, greedy guru, for the next several years until I gave up throwing pearls before swine, to co-opt one of the premies own sayings. I was always embarrased and shamed by my parents involvement in what I saw as a kooky 70's hippie cult that was totally at odds with my early 80's punk aesthetics. When I was dragged along to Houston. Miami, Kissimee, etc. I hated it. I still remember the idiot looks everyone had on their faces as they listened raptly to rawats rambling, incoherent, insulting barrages. I felt genuine fear and hatred that so much delusion was taking place with my parents part and parcel of the whole enchilada. I still can't believe anyone could be foolish enough to fall for gmj or any of the other 100 or so avatars spread round the world. I'm not sure how this all ties into this thread, I think I went off the track, oh well, whatever. Cheers, Marshall

Subject: Marshall - your journey From: Marianne To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:30:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall. I am always struck by how your posts cut right through the bullshit. I think the experiences of kids in the cult, who were dragged through it by their parents, are especially enlightening. I really wish you'd take the time to write your journey because I think it would be a great addition to EPO. Marianne

Subject: That post's good for starters [nt] From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:40:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Blimey ,Marshall... From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:39:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, I just read your account and am somewhat reeling. Had no idea you'd been through all that and that it was as bad as that for you... Was there ever a time when you had a good time with it? It's awful that you were coerced into receiving K when it was still being given to children because I do recall M stopping that at some point. And congratulations to you for being able to detach from and see through all the brainwashing and finally make a new life for yourself, as I hope you've been able to do. Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Blimey indeed From: Disculta To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 13:20:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto what Livia said, Marshall dude! Amazing what you went through! You came out of it rather articulate, I must say. I especially loved this description of MJ's holy company of truth: 'rawats rambling, incoherent, insulting barrages' Yes, I did bring people to see MJ. My mother came to the Royal Albert Hall with me one time. She wasn't very impressed, but of course I took it to be because she had already formed beliefs about him (negative) in accordance with the theory stated above. Someone I sort of revered when I was half-exiting but still 'proud' of MJ came to see him at the Miami Convention Center in 1984 and I remember suddenly seeing him through her eyes. Jeezus, it was embarrassing. She was into spiritual stuff, and I realized as he was speaking that he clearly wasn't. love ktd

Subject: From the cult's First Class email From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:58:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Monday, 27 May 2002 12:09:PM Pac Participation Info From: Linda Pascotto - US Subject: Info re:TPRF To: Pac Participation Info Hello again. Hope everyone is doing well looking forward to the next events, I’m sure! I’m writing to you now as a board member of The Prem Rawat Foundation. I’m sure most of you have seen the beautiful website @ tprf.org and are taking advantage of ordering the available Leaders magazine and reprints, as well as creating your own individual booklets from Maharaji’s discourses. Many of you have expressed a desire to help The Prem Rawat Foundation. Here are a couple of ways your assistance can make a significant difference. 1. Financial support to TPRF will allow the required funding to produce the variety of materials Maharaji intends to create. 2. Networking with friends and co-workers (even those without Self-Knowledge) is invaluable to help find skilled personnel in many areas. Some examples of help that will be needed in the (very near) future: 1.Experienced translators for a wide variety of languages, including some in which Maharaji’s message has not yet been translated, e.g., Arabic 2. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields 3.Graphic artists/designers It would be wonderful if we could be proactive to find the financial support and skills that are needed. Since there are far fewer people on First Class than previously, please pass along this information to whomever you think will be interested. Hope to see you soon! Warm regards, Linda Pascotto

Subject: Same old, same old From: Happie (but irate) Frenchie To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:29:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Pat I'm glad to see yu weren't away too long from this forum ! Anyway, nothing in Premrawatdom ever changes, does it ? Same rethoric, same calls for capital, freebie work by experts in their field... It is sickening ! Enough already ! Irate Frenchie

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 07:27:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, I am right now offering my services as a translator of Bullshit into English. How wonder full to have this opportunity. LOL Bolly

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 'First Class' post from Linda emphasis the focus is now on The Prem Rawat Foundation and increasingly away from Elan Vital. Something really stinks here. Increasingly I feel that the emergence of TPRF is connected with the new policy statement re sexual harassment that Elan Vital that has put up. I had a look at some of the Elan Vital sites and see all of them (except Duo in India) now carry the sexual harassment policy notice. However nowhere on the TPRF or Maharaji.net sites is this new policy statement made. (Maybe I missed them.) I wonder if this is to do with the fact that these sites are so closely linked directly with Maharaji? Elan Vital however, it could be argued, was simply an organisation created by his followers and was not directly sponsored by Maharaji. I think that Maharaji (after taking legal advice) is simply cutting his losses. There seems to be a recognition that the past problems can no longer be 'wished' away, as he has tried to do for years, rather he now seems to be placing a ring-fence around the problem and walking away from it. It is like building fire breaks. In order to mitigate a far worse firestorm, simply burn away some of the good stuff and, hopefully, when and if the storm begins to engulf the existing edifice the new creations will survive. By having Elan Vital alone making the policy statement Maharaji can simply state that it was his followers all along that created the mess and that they have to sort it out. He attempts to be seen as blameless. I think it is entirely plausible that Maharaji (and his advisors) consider that it is highly likely that over the coming years there will be more and more people wanting restitution for damages that have been caused. Also, they probably figure that such claims will arise from other causes in addition to damages caused by sexual harassment. For example the wholesale giving away of trust funds, the medical damages caused by the Deca project, the career impairment caused by living in ashrams, the suicides - the list goes on and on. This is all pure speculation of course, I have no inside knowledge as to the true motives, and my speculation is based on what I see only. It is akin to the Catholic Church (and remember in the USA Elan Vital is a church) forming a new organisation for the faithful where new funding is out of the reach of potential claimants. If the Catholic Church were to do this it would be viewed wholeheartedly as being deeply cynical and simply a ploy of putting resources beyond legal reach. I can't see the Catholic Church ever doing this as some ethical standards still exist within that church. Obviously I may be totally wrong about the motives of Elan Vital and Maharaji. This, after all, is only an opinion. Perhaps there are different reasons for the revisionism we have seen lately and that Elan Vital/Maharaji have set aside a pool of funds that will be sufficient to meet all potential future liabilities. Hey maybe some bright and alert PAM had the foresight of buying an insurance policy for such risks? Please someone tell me that I am wrong in my opinions and that the Elan Vital/Maharaji motives are benign in all respects. A direct post from Linda Pascotto would be helpful. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: tell me that I am wrong in my opinions From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:56:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No. Why should I? Your opinions were very plausible. Sorry.

Subject: Re: tell me that I am wrong in my opinions From: Thorin To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:12:06 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Thanks Pat What pisses me off immensely is that even if Elan Vital acknowledges wrongdoing in particular cases they can simply turn around and say there ain't any cash in the kitty to pay. It will all have gone, especially as time progresses. What I think should happen is that the Board of TPRF (which includes Linda, who I hear is an honourable person) should be composed of several more people, some of which are ex followers of Maharaji and some that have nothing to do with ever having receiving Knowledge - dispassionate citizens if you like. The TPR Foundation should be endowed with, say, $35 million (a fraction of M's wealth), which would be used for past restitutions as well as future good works. The Board of TPR Foundation should make decisions of what resources are spent and on what. I think that the TPR Foundation should only gain its tax exempt credentials on this basis. To gain its tax exempt status in any other way makes mockery of fair play. Just a naive thought. I bet the 'other' foundations (e.g. Bill Gates ....) have a proper democratic process. Thorin

Subject: Thorin,a interesting idea for TPRF From: la-ex To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:19:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why not write up your proposal, and snd it to pay pal and epo...have it stand on the epo homepage as a challenge to pay pal to 'do the right thing'.....his 'no response' response would speak volumes in and of itself..

Subject: Re: Thorin,a interesting idea for TPRF From: Thorin To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, May 30, 2002 at 05:31:03 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Wow la-ex, your post is now way out of the live posts, it was only by chance while chewing over this sandwich I have in my hand. Yes indeed I have thought of doing exactly what you suggest but not so sure where it would progress beyond a 'mark in the sand' Lets go offline on this - email as above Thorin

Subject: Re: From the cult's First Class email From: Bolly Shri To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 07:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin I'm not absolutely certain on the details but I believe all employers are obliged to have a policy on sexual harrasment. The place to check this is employment law via Hansard or similar. I'll try and get around to it but parliamentary publications are really tedious and one has to be in the right frame of mind to plough through them. LOL Bolly

Subject: My 2 cents From: Jean-Michel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:19:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Networking with friends and co-workers (even those without Self-Knowledge) is invaluable to help find skilled personnel in many areas. Looks like propogation/recruitment is now on tried on the Internet. Word of mouth never worked, I guess Internet will never work either. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields All gone ? What happened ???? Leave propogation to non premies ? What a joke ! Give us money, we'll hire people (like Leaders magazine) to do it for you, as you're unable to do it, in spite of 30 years of 'learning' the 'teachings' ..... creating your own individual booklets from Maharaji’s discourses. That's pathetic !!!! Why don't they encourage them to read EPO ? The best of Prem's teaching is already there !! The ship is sinking.

Subject: Here's another 2 cents, JM From: la-ex To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:02:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe we should borrow a page from their playbook.....instructions of how to make a 'propagation' handbook from the EPO site, with favorite essays to include...would make good late night reading for any aspirant, I'm sure....would also be interesting to see premies reactions to some of the 'golden oldy' satsangs of yesteryear...

Subject: Re: proactive From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:05:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OMG! they have started to use the 'P' word... ((((( shiver )))))

Subject: Why far fewer first class participants? From: JHB To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 23:19:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since there are far fewer people on First Class than previously, please pass along this information to whomever you think will be interested. Why is this? Notice she doesn't simply say fewer, but far fewer. I can think several possible reasons:- 1. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to make it more exclusive. 2. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to improve security and prevent leaks to the ex-premie community. 3. Participants have excluded themselves due to other demands on their time. 4. Participants have excluded themselves due to renouncing Maharaji as their teacher. If the correct answer is 2, then this thread proves the exercise was unsuccessful. What is the official explanation, I wonder? What is interesting is the matter of fact way she says it, so there must be an official explanation. Anyone know? John.

Subject: Another reason From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:39:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 5. They now charge a monthly fee to have the priveledge of participating in First Class. I heard this from someone who was receiving FC but didn't want to shell out the $ to keep getting it. This person is also a #4.

Subject: Re: Another reason From: Moll of Mole To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:21:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, this is true , you now have to pay a fee to stay on First Class.

Subject: Re: Why far fewer first class participants? From: Moll of Mole To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:45:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the reason 2. They have deliberately reduced the number of participants to improve security and prevent leaks to the ex-premie community.

Subject: Thanks, Moll From: JHB To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Looks like they'll have to reduce the circulation even more. Do you think Prem can be trusted not to leak stuff here? John.

Subject: This part is very revealing From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 19:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some examples of help that will be needed in the (very near) future: 2. Professional expertise in all areas of communication, e.g., journalism, creative writing, editing, publishing, film, video, photography and other related fields 3.Graphic artists/designers What has happened to all of the loyal and dedicated people who were previously 'employed' by Visions and Dunrite? Told to get 'outside jobs' to create 'participation opportunities' for the new creative types, including 'even those without Self-Knowledge'? My best wishes go out to those who were down-sized by the make-over from EV-Visions-Dunrite to TPRF. I've been there, done that, designed and then bought the T-shirt.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Pat W To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 04:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Again Richard..so true. I hope you don't mind but I am sending this to a premie I know who is booked for a 'training' soon. I am including the message from Linda and your comments. Dear.... Someone posted this 'First Class' message from Linda Pascotto on the Internet. Richard Rogers' reply resonated with me. Richard used to be heavily involved with Divine Publications or something in the USA etc. He was a longstanding PAM (Premie around Maharaji) as far as I can see, and appears in pictures alongside Maharaji during the Seventies. Somebody else's comment was 'Talk about re-cycling people'. I think the sad and kind of offensive thing is that we have seen with each re-shuffle of M's image and the attendant reshuffling and dismissal of various people doing different services -that those people who offered all their time and services to help Maharji are very unceremoniously put out to pasture. There's always this call for more 'skilled personnel in many areas' but what happened to all the people who used to do all this stuff. In the case of people like .... and ..... - and many others - you could say they just got burned out and were 'put out to pasture '- but why does it have to be like this? In any healthy- functional organisation those people who work for it are not neccesarily so used and spat out as it were. There seems to be a pattern that premies are milked of their skills and then rather callously dismissed and forgotten, rather than treated with care. All this seems again to point towards Maharaji being really so consumed with his agenda that he doesn't mind walking over peoples feelings. This could also be said to apply to the ashram premies who gave up everything and yet are offered no explanation or care when M decided they were simply a financial liability -as many witnesses have reported was the sole reason he closed them. I think it is very telling that despite Maharaji 'marching on' and being concerned always with impressing a new audience, that behind him there is this trail of people with misgivings whom he really doesn't care to talk to or help come to terms with what he was on about during their 'time'. They seem for all the world to be kind of dead assets to him. I thought that I'd share this with you this because it seems that it may in some way be relevant to the 'training session' you are attending shortly. Do these guys want feedback from old premies or not? Does anyone care that the 'revisionism' that apparently goes on in these trainings is offensive to many who gave up their entire youths to OBEY and serve M only now to be told they were 'getting in Maharaji's way' etc. Love Patrick

Subject: Me too, Patrick... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:11:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Patrick, You can feel free to use my name if you want in corresponding with this premie. I was a Deca throw-away. Like Richard, I never considered myself a PAM, but I did work closely with Maharaji for a year at DECA and when I burnt out, both physically and emotionally, I was kicked out. I was put out to pasture by being transferred to another ashram when I was supposed to rest and get well. Within four months I was forced to seek employment. I had more income earning potential than the other sisters, and the community coordinator and initiators who discussed me knew that. I trust your judgment and have no fear of the cult, whatever it's name is now;) So much for shelter! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Me too, Patrick... From: Pat W To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia, I will pass on your comments for sure. Anyone else want to add some more??

Subject: Sure Patrick From: Richard To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:01:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really feel compassion for anyone who 'gave their all' only to be swept away in a restructuring. These dedicated people are left to flounder while The Prem gets credit for doing away with those terrible unsychronized organizations that get in his way. Until the next time it happens and people realize they were just dust at the feet after all. BTW: if I ever need a ghost writer for my memoirs, you da man. Even though I designed publications for 7 years and had some close encounters of the Satguru kind, I've never thought of myself as a PAM. As far as sharing my observations, go for it. I recently shared the thread on loss that was begun by Anth with several premie friends. They were amazed at the beauty and compassion and it got them to revising their opinion of all us 'Winey Loosers who just never got it'.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:24:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard and Patrick. Perhaps I'm out of sync and out of the loop, but what's Dunrite? Is this something Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital eventually became? (Oh, and let us not forget SHIP, Shri Hans International Productions, of which we were a part.) It sounds like someone's megalomaniac power trip to me. (e.g. everything must be 'done right' to my orders and specifications) I guess TPRF is even more 'top down' sounding, no room for anyone else's ideas or opinions there, that's for sure.

Subject: Re: This part is very revealing From: Disculta To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 06:44:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just popping in to say a quick hello to you Joy! E-mail me! And I agree with Richard and PatW that Prem's discarding of used people is absolutely Dunwrong! I went through it with the closing of IHQ in 1976 and observed the whole thing again as a DECA volunteer. Quite disgusting. Human rights violations in fact. love ktd

Subject: Dunrite From: JHB To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:49:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dunrite has been around for a while and is the video/media company that is, I believe, partly or wholly owned by Maharaji's offspring. Its uses include syphoning money legally from Elan Vital by charging exorbitantly for the video production from programs. John.

Subject: Re: Dunrite From: Try This To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:02:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Quite the professional sounding company Dunrite www.dunritegroup.com/homep.htm

Subject: Re: Dunrite From: Blondie To: Try This Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 12:52:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A neat bunch, their proud of their relationship with Andersen Consulting - evidence shredders extrordinaire. Practically every other Business on the planet removed any reference to Andersen months ago.

Subject: Talk about recycling people... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:21:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A Cult-Spotter’s Guide #1: ‘Teachings’ From: Nigel To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:18:10 (PDT) Email Address: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: For the last four years, for my sins, I have been 'teaching' university students - an activity which involves the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction and guidance. One form of information exchange I never deal in, however, is the ‘teaching’. Participle as noun. ‘Teachings’ are the exclusive province of personality cults, ‘spiritual’ groups and Deputy Dog and have sweet FA to do with education or learning. I just ran a Google search for the word ‘teachings’. The first ten results thrown up were: - Spiritual Teachings... - Metista: Spirituality And Shamanism For American Mutts... - Tendai Lotus Teachings- Welcome... - Teachings Of The Buddha... - Dharma Teachings... - Teachings of Swami Sivananda... - SpiritWeb: Spirit Teachings... - The Teachings of Silvanus... - Teachings of Bodhidharma... - The Michael Teachings -- Resources, Channeling, and Spiritual ... A pattern, you might say, seems to be emerging… But what is a ‘teaching’, anyway? Try this, from ‘Krishna Consciousness: The 'Science' of Self-Realisation’: > In April 1973, during a long morning walk at Venice Beach, in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada [founder of the International Society for KRSNA Consciousness] turned to the subject of modern science and scientists. With philosophical rigour, profound common-sense, and disarming frankness, he exposed the narrow-mindedness and illogic behind the scientists' commonly accepted theories about the origin of life. [!!!!????....] Dr Singh: Of course, so much is being written about Darwin's theory. In any library there are hundreds of books on his theories. Srila Prabhupada: Do they accept or reject them? Dr Singh: Generally they accept him, but there are some who are very critical. Srila Prabhupada: Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing? Dr Singh: Darwin says that the species are not created independently but are descended from another. Srila Prabhupada: If there is no question of independence, how can he abruptly begin with a certain species? He must explain how the original species came into existence. ... Dr Singh: Weren't all the varieties of animals existing from the beginning? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Simultaneous creation is verified by the Bhagavad Gita. ... Mike Robinson [BBC interviewer]: Can you tell me what you believe - what the philosophy of the Hare Krsna movement is? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; it is a science. > And so it goes on – (the two short planks don’t even get a reference..) But the idea that Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; but it is a science is a prima facie ‘teaching’. As are all the preceding batty statements made by the guru. For any public declaration, no matter how daft, to become a ’teaching’ it merely needs to be uttered by an authoritative, or authoritarian voice – that of someone whose words have been accorded a special status by a consensus of two or more would-be followers. In this respect, with all 'teachings', the source is more important than the content.. If you or I were to go around informing people that ‘the sky is blue’, this would be a simple statement of fact. When a great soul utters those same words, we have a ‘teaching’, possibly a profound one. When Mr Prem Pal Singh Rawat of Prem Nagar and Malibu, (aka. 'Guru Maharaj ji') declares that 'seeds are dead', (but eggs are not) they might as well be just that, for all the devotee cares. He could with equal confidence declare that the sky is green. Or if I say: ‘stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour’... .. this would be merely a piece of useful advice on my part. When the same words are spoken by a certain Shri Hans Ji Maharaj of this parish, we have another ‘teaching’. And 'teachings' deserve and demand deference. You could almost define a 'teaching' as 'whatever it is your guru happens to say next'... So although a ’teaching’ might involve the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction, guidance or gobblegook, none of these elements, in themselves or in combination, comprise a 'teaching'. (And few, if any, of those terms are ever employed in a cult environment, anyway. 'Teaching' is always a safer and more certain descriptor for a guru's thought-bubbles) What is required is the willing suspension of disbelief when your spirit guide holds forth. And ‘teachings’ are the exclusive property of the cult leader. They are not formulated via discussion, democratic process or committee. Rather, they are handed down, small, but always perfectly formed, by the Wise One. They may later be revised, a bit different, but still perfectly formed, often without warning, but only by the Wise One. And when the Wise One's pronouncements are repeated by others within the personality cult, they remain the Wise One's ’teachings’ rather than mere beliefs or ideas of the Wise One which others happen to share. In this respect, ‘teachings’ are the antithesis of scientific knowledge - the latter becoming public property (ie. everybody’s and nobody’s) as soon as a theory or idea has been verified and accepted - whatever its source. All-comers may then pile in with their own research and ideas and will develop that theory further. A collective, rather than autocratic enterprise, and one which serves humanity as a whole. Not so with 'teachings'; 'teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be - oh! ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. If you or I were to declare that ‘happiness is an inner experience’, we would mean all that those words imply - but no more. But when a living saint breathes life into the same phrase by way of a ’teaching’, he/she reveals a quality of insight that goes ‘beyond words’. And so whenever the rival schools of guruland appear to share a ‘teaching’ (as with the above quote), only one’s own guru holds the copyright on the meaning behind the words – the rival gurus being, for the most part, upstarts and pretenders - hidebound, ritualistic and dogmatic, lacking that essential 'understanding', or whatever. How do you know that? - Well you don't really know that, but you sort of just do know that, you know..? That is not to say one cannot respect the 'teachings' of other spiritual guides. Of course you can - er, if you really must. Some new-age freelancers rumble about like loose cannon, constructing for themselves hybrid philosophies by cherry-picking the bits they like from any number of teacher's 'teachings'. But - crucially - none of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged them to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment . Quite the opposite, in fact. Babaji does not endorse, nor even acknowledge the existence of Andrew Cohen, and vice-versa. 'Teachings' were never intended for maverick students. Which brings me neatly to the next point for the cult-spotter: teachings are self-referential.. They create an enclosed universe of concept and jargon which will not boldy go beyond its own final frontiers for inspiration, information or confirmation. I have only mentioned spiritual cults up until now, but this present example would apply to any number of fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies. It is the supreme definition of a cult, be it Freudian, Breatharian or Aetherian, that its 'teachings' will establish a standalone frame of reference: a Jonestown or Waco of the mind. With their compounds out in the intellectual desert, happily isolated from science and common sense, 'teachings' will flourish and grow - running riot like mutant brambles, never challenged, questioned or cut back to manageable size. (Or, better still, rooted out and burned..) Because 'teachings' are non-negotiable. They are to be accepted and/or followed. In their frequently colourful and idiosyncratic ways, 'teachings' will incorporate a natural philosophy (ie. how the world is) with a moral philosophy (how we should live in that world). With the former, the guru's thought-waves are solemnly channelised, recorded and passed on as if irrefutable 'fact', be they banal truism or egregious bullshit. This kind of 'teaching' is to be accepted rather than discussed or queried. The latter form of 'teaching' involves advice and instruction on how we should go about the daily business of living our lives, cooking our food, going to the toilet and getting ourselves up to heaven in time. Perhaps 'commandment' might be a more fitting term than 'advice', here, since to decline that advice is perceived as a rejection of the 'teachings' as a whole. Follow, or be damned. Because 'teachings', finally, are an all or nothing proposal. To accept but one of a guru's 'teachings' is, de facto, to accept the lot. You might as well, since you have already bought in and compromised your integrity. The acceptance of, or adherence to a 'teaching' is not about validating or agreeing with a particular idea, philosophy or sentiment. It is, rather, a function of accepting the authority of the teacher rather than evaluating his words. To reject out loud just one of your guru's 'teachings' will more than likely lead to your own rejection by, and possible ejection from, the 'company of truth'. Oh yes - I nearly forgot - 'teachings' are about the truth, and don't you forget it. If somebody - anybody - tells you they follow the 'teachings' of 'x', 'y', or 'z', you are onto a pretty safe bet that they are in a cult. I prefer teaching.

Subject: Nigel, I don't respond to your posts anymore From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 15:43:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because I know you just want to pick a fight wiht someone and I can never find anything in your posts to argue with. Here are the 16 Reasons Why God Never Received Tenure at the University 1 He had only one major publication 2 And it was in Hebrew 3 And it had no references 4 And it was not published in a refereed journal 5 And some even doubted that He wrote it Himself 6 It may be true that He created the world, but what has He done since then? 7 His cooperative efforts have been quite limited 8 The scientific community has had a very rough time trying to replicate His results 9 He never applied to the Ethics Board for permission to use human subjects. 10 When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning the subjects. 11 When subjects did not behave as predicted, He often punished them, or just deleted them from the sample. 12 He rarely came to class: He just told students to read the book 13 He has his son teach the class. 14 He expelled His first two students for learning too much. 15 Although there were only ten requirements, most students failed His tests. 16 His office hours were infrequent, and usually held on a mountain top.

Subject: i thought you were gone forever, Pat... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 16:55:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe you are immortal, after all :) Word of advice: about two or three years back I became somewhat embarrased about the number of times I said I was quitting the forum forever, or for a few weeks. So I did a new year's resolution post to quit quitting the forum forever. So far, so good. I highly recommend it. Bests to you, Andy and Chuck - feeling hungry right now, thanks to emotional disturbance caused by ex-ex-Moley husband person. Gonna fry up some swordfish in a minute (before shagging Moley senseless). Got some very nice red wine too. Actually, Moley's on the phone to the lovely Marianne as I type this post. I remember a while back John K (former regular ex here) saying that the forum was 'a community of sorts, and you have to value community wherever you happen to find it'. I agree. The friendship and supportive communications Moles and I have received today from many here has been amazing. I never knew such empathy and closeness in the cult days, that's for sure. And having met in real life over two dozen of you sad 'loosers', I can only wonder whether the presence of wank-artists like Rawat on this planet might (inadvertantly) make for closer relationships between former followers than they might have had, had they never signed up. Probably (no, definitely) not - it's just a matter of getter older, wiser and valuing stuff that actually matters, I reckon. And nobody needs a cult for any purpose.

Subject: Forever? From: PatC To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:41:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not forever. I will have to stop posting (but just reading and doing troll patrol) for a few months as hopefully I will be busy with the good publicity we have recently had. The problem with posting is that this joint is, as you say, a lot like a community and you could spend all day socializing. Not posting is like being a wallflower. I need to be a wallflower for a few months but definitely not a party-pooper. This place is a great experiment in global community. Some of the most adventurous, altruistic and original people joined the cult and then left it. The remaining premies seem to be ..... well - not very brave or pioneering, in fact quite frightened and defensive.

Subject: Happy hols then, but... From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:04:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somehow I don't believe you will actually take that break, however necessary it feels :) (And I, for one, hope you don't) Gotta go - Moley got me some new underwear today from the Oxfam shop...

Subject: FA - please delete thsi post From: Nigel To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:00:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has fuck all to say about anything, and I would not wish the good name of the forum to be forever tarnished by my mishandling of a computer keyboard. (for that is what has seemingly happened - this is just an edit of a formerly blank post). Ta.

Subject: Ignore him Pat - cock teaser From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:15:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Need I say more/ (Oh but what a cock!)

Subject: Nigel and Moley go down in history From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One day your public shagging on this forum will be immortalised by CAC. The one big advantage of letting it all hang out (like Moley's knickers on F7 washing line) is that you can never be blackmailed coz you've got nothing to hide. Well, some of us might as well have a webcam linked to the forum. :C)

Subject: Re: Nigel and Moley go down in history From: Moley To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:22:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True, true and true. And believe me if we had a digital camera, we'd use it ;)

Subject: I didn't mean ''go down'' like that! [nt] From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:34:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Brilliant teaching, Nigel! From: Richard To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice analysis. 'Teaching' is another word that takes on heaviosity in order to give credence to a particular set of beliefs. It's not just an opinion, it's a genuine Teaching so it must be real. Thanks for the teaching. I feel grateful so where do I send may appreciation?

Subject: Bravo, brilliant analysis (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 11:22:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Congratulations once again.. From: PJ To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 04:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on drawing me away once more from my work to read yet another of your endless (usually very entertaining) posts. Over the last few months my humdrum existence has been lightened for hours daily by the latest offerings from regulars like Jim Heller, Pat Conlon and yourself. Now I can't resist raising a couple of points which spring to mind. The first, quite simply, is that, while you are denouncing 'teachings', i.e. enclosed, self-referencing volumes of instruction, do not your own theses also really form one? Atheism, Darwinism, science.. Have you not, on abandoning the boat of late 20th century New Religion merely leapt back one hundred percent into the closed (and often miserable) scientific paradigm which preceded it (actually precipitated it all)? The amazing thing in your world of endless theorizing and abstraction is that quite literally nothing and no one else, however harmless, and perhaps fun, gets any look in whatsoever. ‘Fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies’ are linked with (boxed into an example which includes) Jonestown and Waco. They should preferably be 'rooted out and burned..' Can you please explain why, for heaven’s sake, homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki, aromatherapy deserve this full Torquemada treatment? If you don’t like them, just leave alone. They keep a few people happy, and aren’t exactly lethal. This attitude bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the statements of Shri Hans quoted by another poster below (spiritual or atheist, it’s the similar mind-set which is striking). Also, IMHO, to a witchfinder.

Subject: Thanks, everyone - and to PJ.. From: Nigel To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 05:41:33 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: I appreciate any kind of feedback when I do a long post and am glad most of it has been positive (as yours has been, in part, PJ). However, you have asked me some questions so I'll do my best to answer them. Now I can't resist raising a couple of points which spring to mind. The first, quite simply, is that, while you are denouncing 'teachings', i.e. enclosed, self-referencing volumes of instruction, do not your own theses also really form one? Atheism, Darwinism, science.. No, of course not. That's exactly the point I was making when I said science was the antithesis of 'teachings'. Science, for me, is (usually) honest about the basis for the beliefs it incorporates, and these are evidence-based and its methodology and findings are open to, and inclusive of anyone with the basic skills to carry out research or put forward a hypothesis. An important distinction, I think. There are no scientific gurus (even Darwin) whose theories might not crumble if the right kind of contradictory evidence emerged. (I don't see this as likely to happen, though certain aspects of his original draft of evolutionary have been revised or removed, eg. his belief that 'Lamarkian' inheritance might also occur in addition to Natural Selection. He had, at that time, no way of knowing either way. Post-Mendel and post DNA it is clear now that Lamarkism is a non-starter. But such is the way science progresses.) As for atheism, how can non-adherence to any way of thinking comprise a teaching or belief system? I don't believe in fairies or unicorns either, but that, for me is simply a sensible default position. certainly not a closed-system And those non-beliefs would be open to revision if the right kind of evidence for the existence of fairies or unicorns showed up. Have you not, on abandoning the boat of late 20th century New Religion merely leapt back one hundred percent into the closed (and often miserable) scientific paradigm which preceded it (actually precipitated it all)? I certainly hope so. I don't find science to be either miserable or closed. The amazing thing in your world of endless theorizing and abstraction is that quite literally nothing and no one else, however harmless, and perhaps fun, gets any look in whatsoever. I actually find it enormous fun researching and writing about paranormal and irrational belief systems. I don't know what you mean, precisely, about 'nothing and nobody getting a look in'. If you mean I should be prepared to accept as valid ideas and systems which are, at best, merely unfounded beliefs and, at worst, dangerously manipulative cults, then, no - they don't get a look in. Why should they? But I'm happy to examine their 'teachings' and then comment on them (as I have here). Others present seem to be glad that I have - and so do you. What's the problem? ‘Fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies’ are linked with (boxed into an example which includes) Jonestown and Waco. They should preferably be 'rooted out and burned..' Read me carefully and you will see I was talking figuratively - 'a Jonestown or Waco of the mind', ie. a hermetically-sealed off belief system flourishing in its remote compound. That's all. I was not remotely comparing Freud with Jim Jones, or whatever. Can you please explain why, for heaven’s sake, homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki, aromatherapy deserve this full Torquemada treatment? I gladly could and would like to, but I'm not sure I have time right now. Maybe I'll do it on the Symposium in due course. If you don’t like them, just leave alone. They keep a few people happy, and aren’t exactly lethal. No, perhaps not, but all of them depend on the exploitation of gullible minds. Sorry, but that's how I see it. This attitude bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the statements of Shri Hans quoted by another poster below (spiritual or atheist, it’s the similar mind-set which is striking). Also, IMHO, to a witchfinder. Don't be ridiculous. What do any of these fringe/spiritual practices have to fear from anything I have to say about them? If they cannot stand up to a bit of objective skeptical scrutiny then heaven help the lot of them. Cheers, Nige

Subject: Thanks for the reply... From: PJ To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:19:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the reply, Nigel. I don't think you've really answered the points. But I think you've shown the readiness to discuss, which I've felt has been absent from your stuff for a while. You've got a good take on things which shouldn't become besmirched by doctrine, which seems to me has happened too much recently. I'll prepare a reply, but it may take a couple of days, owing to work. I'll look forward to talking more, however. Very best wishes. PJ

Subject: Let me through, I’m a Reiki healer..! From: Nigel To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:09:47 (PDT) Email Address: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: (sorry - couldn't resist - I have been saving that one up for the right moment..) Thanks to you too, PJ, and best wishes etc. I have no problem with discussing any of this stuff. Trouble is, people so rarely challenge the things I post (apart from inarticulate trollsters) that the opportunity almost never arises. I like it when it does. If you don’t mind, PJ, I’d like to ask you a few questions, now that I’ve done my best to answer yours… 1 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself an ‘acupuncturist’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved sticking in needles at random body locations (albeit being careful to do no physical damage), and charged the regular, some would say extortionate, fees… Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? 2 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself a ‘Reiki healer’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved sweeping my hands gracefully around random body locations (albeit being careful to cause no psychological damage), and charged the regular, some would say extortionate, fees.. Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? 3 - Suppose I were to start a small, private consultancy, calling myself a ‘homeopath’, then invented an appropriate-looking therapy which involved prescribing my own patent, overpriced sugar pills - a bit of playful pendulum-swinging, perhaps. On top of the regular, some would say extortionate, fees.. Would you consider my practice to be ‘harmless fun’? These are not trick questions – and they go right to the heart of the reasons for my supposed ‘Torquemada’ technique (somewhat OTT characterisation there, methinks). If you could answer these questions when doing your considered reply we might have shared terms of reference for a fruitful discussion. I hope so… Best, Nige

Subject: Holy COW! Did I ever laugh at that one!!!! From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:13:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, That was so funny I just KNEW I shouldn't spoil it by reading your post. Great line. I'll use it as soon as I get a chance. I don't know if this helps or hurts ( a bit of both, I figure) but ... Help! Help! Is there a doctor in the house??! My husband's energy is out of alignment! Quick, please, let me through! I'm a Reiki healer .... HO HO HOOOOOO!!!

Subject: Ditto Jim LOL- Imagine the cartoon! [nt] From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 17:53:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No - imagine the casualty ward... From: Nigel To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blood everywhere etc...

Subject: Yeh - sorry I can only do distance From: Moley To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:32:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: healing. I haven't done my Reiki Master course yet (only 250 dollars for a weekend course). So stem your own blood flow in the meantime.

Subject: Hemostat, nurse! ASAP! From: PatC To: Moley Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Sorry, doctor. I can't find a hemostat but I've studied aromatherapy. Would a geranium do? Oh wait - here's a hemostat but I've been using it as a roach holder. It's a bit grungy. Maybe if I rubbed it with this crystal.'' ''Don't upset your karma, nurse. The patient just bled to death.''

Subject: Would a geranium do? LOLOLOL [nt] From: Mo;ey To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: We're aiming the rocket at Mars From: PatC To: Mo;ey Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Where's the astronomer? We need to check our calibrations.'' ''The astronomer went home with food poisoning from the cafetaria but Mavis the char-lady knows astrology. Would that help?'' ''Sure, but we'll have to update her star-charts because they're 2,000 years out of date and Mars is about 30 million miles away from where she thinks it is.'' Now I must go bath and dress for dinner. Tonight I'm wearing this little fishnet number. And you - I suppose, like Marilyn Monroe, just Chanel No 5?

Subject: Buddhist 'teachings' etc. From: Joy To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:30:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Nigel. Absolutely brilliant post, I agree. For many years post-cult I proudly abstained from all forms of packaged spirituality. Then around 1992 or so got into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition for about five years. My 'teacher''s talks were always referred to as 'teachings' in the most reverential (and cult-like, I now see in retrospect) way possible. Tibetan Buddhism makes no bones about the bhakti yoga side of itself, touting 'guru-yoga' as one of the highest forms of practice. At least in that respect they're honest, unlike alot of these other shysters who just dazzle you with it and ensnare you and hope you can keep up the dance long enough for them to make a good living out of it. I'm so grateful to be living my life now free of gurus and teachings of all sorts (now there's gratitude for ya). A post like that is so much more enlightening than any guru ever was! (Ever consider becoming a guru yourself? There'd be good money in it!) Love to you and Moley, Joy

Subject: Scientology From: Neville To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Ever consider becoming a guru yourself? There'd be good money in it!' As L. Ron Hubbard appreciated. Neville

Subject: Re: A Cult-Spotter’s Guide #1: ‘Teachings’ From: Pat W To: Nigel Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:07:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're points are very relevant Nigel. I have been having similar ruminations myself. Morphic resonance perhaps? I am going to send your post to a few people I know as a part of our ongoing debate. I am also going to show it to a fellow I know who is enamoured of the teachings of the Hare Krishna movement!

Subject: Re: Morphic resonance From: AV To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:11:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey PW, sound like a lift from a PCM 91 manual, geddouta that studio boy, your brain is becoming a giant plug-in! btw, did you make Am'roo? you posted u were going, but must have missed your impressions. B good AV :-)

Subject: Re: Morphic resonance From: Pat W To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:11:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry AV....that bit about Amaroo was my pathetic idea for an April Fool. It was on April 1st.

Subject: Re: Morphic resonance From: AV To: Pat W Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:46:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: grrrrr, I bin suckered

Subject: Anyone else actually read this ... this thing? From: Jim To: Nigel Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 17:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nigel, This is one fantastic post. You know, usually when I see a long Nigel post I just kind of wait and see what others might say. If they cry 'BEST OF' I might take a look. Or if a cultweasle spits at you with that extra spurt of venom, well, I might just read the whole thing. I mean, we're busy people over here, Nige. It's not like the old world, I'll tell you that. But this one I more or less found all by myself. And what a proud little boy am I! I wonder, will anyone else notice this post, perched as it is so high above the best forum real estate? The bold text should be excerpted as a primer of sorts. So no one has to do what I did and read through the whole thing. Hey, I'll do that for you!

Subject: The really good parts of Nigel's post From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 17:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here, I've carefully re-posted the stuff worth reading: For the last four years, for my sins, I have been 'teaching' university students - an activity which involves the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction and guidance. One form of information exchange I never deal in, however, is the ‘teaching’. Participle as noun. ‘Teachings’ are the exclusive province of personality cults, ‘spiritual’ groups and Deputy Dog and have sweet FA to do with education or learning. I just ran a Google search for the word ‘teachings’. The first ten results thrown up were: - Spiritual Teachings... - Metista: Spirituality And Shamanism For American Mutts... - Tendai Lotus Teachings- Welcome... - Teachings Of The Buddha... - Dharma Teachings... - Teachings of Swami Sivananda... - SpiritWeb: Spirit Teachings... - The Teachings of Silvanus... - Teachings of Bodhidharma... - The Michael Teachings -- Resources, Channeling, and Spiritual ... A pattern, you might say, seems to be emerging… But what is a ‘teaching’, anyway? Try this, from ‘Krishna Consciousness: The 'Science' of Self-Realisation’: > In April 1973, during a long morning walk at Venice Beach, in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada [founder of the International Society for KRSNA Consciousness] turned to the subject of modern science and scientists. With philosophical rigour, profound common-sense, and disarming frankness, he exposed the narrow-mindedness and illogic behind the scientists' commonly accepted theories about the origin of life. [!!!!????....] Dr Singh: Of course, so much is being written about Darwin's theory. In any library there are hundreds of books on his theories. Srila Prabhupada: Do they accept or reject them? Dr Singh: Generally they accept him, but there are some who are very critical. Srila Prabhupada: Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing? Dr Singh: Darwin says that the species are not created independently but are descended from another. Srila Prabhupada: If there is no question of independence, how can he abruptly begin with a certain species? He must explain how the original species came into existence. ... Dr Singh: Weren't all the varieties of animals existing from the beginning? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Simultaneous creation is verified by the Bhagavad Gita. ... Mike Robinson [BBC interviewer]: Can you tell me what you believe - what the philosophy of the Hare Krsna movement is? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; it is a science. > And so it goes on – (the two short planks don’t even get a reference..) But the idea that Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; but it is a science is a prima facie ‘teaching’. As are all the preceding batty statements made by the guru. For any public declaration, no matter how daft, to become a ’teaching’ it merely needs to be uttered by an authoritative, or authoritarian voice – that of someone whose words have been accorded a special status by a consensus of two or more would-be followers. In this respect, with all 'teachings', the source is more important than the content.. If you or I were to go around informing people that ‘the sky is blue’, this would be a simple statement of fact. When a great soul utters those same words, we have a ‘teaching’, possibly a profound one. When Mr Prem Pal Singh Rawat of Prem Nagar and Malibu, (aka. 'Guru Maharaj ji') declares that 'seeds are dead', (but eggs are not) they might as well be just that, for all the devotee cares. He could with equal confidence declare that the sky is green. Or if I say: ‘stay near the rich man’s door, and accept his blows. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour’... .. this would be merely a piece of useful advice on my part. When the same words are spoken by a certain Shri Hans Ji Maharaj of this parish, we have another ‘teaching’. And 'teachings' deserve and demand deference. You could almost define a 'teaching' as 'whatever it is your guru happens to say next'... So although a ’teaching’ might involve the sharing of facts, theories, arguments, ideas, questions, speculations, hypotheses, advice, instruction, guidance or gobblegook, none of these elements, in themselves or in combination, comprise a 'teaching'. (And few, if any, of those terms are ever employed in a cult environment, anyway. 'Teaching' is always a safer and more certain descriptor for a guru's thought-bubbles) What is required is the willing suspension of disbelief when your spirit guide holds forth. And ‘teachings’ are the exclusive property of the cult leader. They are not formulated via discussion, democratic process or committee. Rather, they are handed down, small, but always perfectly formed, by the Wise One. They may later be revised, a bit different, but still perfectly formed, often without warning, but only by the Wise One. And when the Wise One's pronouncements are repeated by others within the personality cult, they remain the Wise One's ’teachings’ rather than mere beliefs or ideas of the Wise One which others happen to share. In this respect, ‘teachings’ are the antithesis of scientific knowledge - the latter becoming public property (ie. everybody’s and nobody’s) as soon as a theory or idea has been verified and accepted - whatever its source. All-comers may then pile in with their own research and ideas and will develop that theory further. A collective, rather than autocratic enterprise, and one which serves humanity as a whole. Not so with 'teachings'; 'teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be - oh! ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. If you or I were to declare that ‘happiness is an inner experience’, we would mean all that those words imply - but no more. But when a living saint breathes life into the same phrase by way of a ’teaching’, he/she reveals a quality of insight that goes ‘beyond words’. And so whenever the rival schools of guruland appear to share a ‘teaching’ (as with the above quote), only one’s own guru holds the copyright on the meaning behind the words – the rival gurus being, for the most part, upstarts and pretenders - hidebound, ritualistic and dogmatic, lacking that essential 'understanding', or whatever. How do you know that? - Well you don't really know that, but you sort of just do know that, you know..? That is not to say one cannot respect the 'teachings' of other spiritual guides. Of course you can - er, if you really must. Some new-age freelancers rumble about like loose cannon, constructing for themselves hybrid philosophies by cherry-picking the bits they like from any number of teacher's 'teachings'. But - crucially - none of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged them to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment . Quite the opposite, in fact. Babaji does not endorse, nor even acknowledge the existence of Andrew Cohen, and vice-versa. 'Teachings' were never intended for maverick students. Which brings me neatly to the next point for the cult-spotter: teachings are self-referential.. They create an enclosed universe of concept and jargon which will not boldy go beyond its own final frontiers for inspiration, information or confirmation. I have only mentioned spiritual cults up until now, but this present example would apply to any number of fringe medicines, crank diets and psychotherapies. It is the supreme definition of a cult, be it Freudian, Breatharian or Aetherian, that its 'teachings' will establish a standalone frame of reference: a Jonestown or Waco of the mind. With their compounds out in the intellectual desert, happily isolated from science and common sense, 'teachings' will flourish and grow - running riot like mutant brambles, never challenged, questioned or cut back to manageable size. (Or, better still, rooted out and burned..) Because 'teachings' are non-negotiable. They are to be accepted and/or followed. In their frequently colourful and idiosyncratic ways, 'teachings' will incorporate a natural philosophy (ie. how the world is) with a moral philosophy (how we should live in that world). With the former, the guru's thought-waves are solemnly channelised, recorded and passed on as if irrefutable 'fact', be they banal truism or egregious bullshit. This kind of 'teaching' is to be accepted rather than discussed or queried. The latter form of 'teaching' involves advice and instruction on how we should go about the daily business of living our lives, cooking our food, going to the toilet and getting ourselves up to heaven in time. Perhaps 'commandment' might be a more fitting term than 'advice', here, since to decline that advice is perceived as a rejection of the 'teachings' as a whole. Follow, or be damned. Because 'teachings', finally, are an all or nothing proposal. To accept but one of a guru's 'teachings' is, de facto, to accept the lot. You might as well, since you have already bought in and compromised your integrity. The acceptance of, or adherence to a 'teaching' is not about validating or agreeing with a particular idea, philosophy or sentiment. It is, rather, a function of accepting the authority of the teacher rather than evaluating his words. To reject out loud just one of your guru's 'teachings' will more than likely lead to your own rejection by, and possible ejection from, the 'company of truth'. Oh yes - I nearly forgot - 'teachings' are about the truth, and don't you forget it. If somebody - anybody - tells you they follow the 'teachings' of 'x', 'y', or 'z', you are onto a pretty safe bet that they are in a cult. I prefer teaching.

Subject: Jim, the wise guy... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:18:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After I read Nigel's entire post I did the same Google search. There are 1,150,000 possible sites under ''teachings.'' Of all the good and insightful points in Nigel's post I liked his last line best: ''I prefer teaching.'' That says to me that Nigel also prefers ''learning,'' which indicates a lifelong enterprise not limited to one person's teachings but always going forward to find something new and stimulating every day. What a great observation Nigel. One little letter ''s'' makes so much of a difference.

Subject: Nigel's post for the New World businessman From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:05:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you don't want to read through all of Nigel's post -- and who could blame you? -- here are the salient parts: The source is more important than the content. 'Teachings' are the exclusive property of the cult leader. 'Teachings' are top-down, and ever more shall be. ‘Teachings’ also contain hidden depths of meaning. None of those teachers or 'teachings' will have encouraged ['students'] to do that: ie. to look to the 'teachings' of others for complementary sources of enlightenment. 'Teachings' are self-referential. 'Teachings' are an all or nothing proposal. 'Teachings' are about the truth.

Subject: Definitely my last post - a gorgeous guru From: PatC To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:31:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As long as there are ''teachers'' out there teaching their ''self-referential'' nonsense, I guess you, Nigel, me and many other ex-premies and ex-other-gurujists, will be posting way, pulling them to pieces in a way that only former cultheads can. This guru, Sri Sri (yes two sris are better than one) Ravi Shankar (no not the sitarist) is much more refined and more educated than Balyouguesswhat - still young, handsome and has a much classier gig than Rawat's. He lives here in Silicone Valley quite a lot. There is a large Indian population down in the South Bay because of the computer industry. But Sri Sri has also attracted quite a few 20 and 30 something New Age Americans who are lot more preppy/yuppie than us old crusties from the sixties. He even holds classes at the prestigious nearby Stanford University. He also has a big following in South Africa - not only among the Indians. Why am I mentioning him? Read his website first and then come back and I'll tell you. Now, see? Didn't I tell you he was handsome, young and much less sleezy sounding or looking than Prem? Well, last night an Indian woman from South Africa (who now lives in Silicone Valley) came to dinner. I ended up talking to her for an hour after we closed - about life, the universe and everything including our former gurus. It turns out that she had taken Sri Sri's ''Art of Living'' course. Everything went fine in the beginning for her. It was interesting enough to keep her attention but then she was invited to attend the private ''satsangs.'' Then came the real story. As she said, ''The meditation was fine. The people were great. They were really nice and friendly but I started to see that they were mesmerized by the guru - all gushy and thanking him for everything as if he was god.'' ''Just like my guru,'' I said; ''it's bhakti.'' ''Yes, that's what they called it.'' I won't write about our whole conversation as most of it is OT (we had a lot more in common as fellow South Africans than as former guru-suckers.) But let me tell you more about this woman as she is fascinating and I think her story explains why she didn't swallow the gurujism. Her parents moved from Punjabi to Tanzania in the fifties when it was still a Colony in the Commonwealth. Her grandparents had been Hindus but had converted to Bahai. She was born in Tanzania and raised Bahai. When the former Colonies expelled the Indians in the seventies most went to the UK and some to Canada. Her parents moved south to Botswana. (Botswana is a kingdom encircled by the Republic of South Africa. Eventhough Botswana is nominally independent - as are the other two kingdoms surrounded by South Africa, Lesotho and Swaziland - it as much part of the Republic politically and economically as the kingdom of kwaZulu is.) Anyway, she came to Chicago to do her Master's degree. There she met a man from Atlanta. He was married with kids and a staunch Baptist from a very conservative Christian African-American family. Well, they are now married and I met him last night - a real old-fashioned Southern gentleman. Her family completely accepted him when she took him to visit them in South Africa. However the other Indians in her parent's hometown did not. His family is very uncomfortable with her. She is not Christian, not black, a professor at Stanford University and a radical feminist - she teaches women's studies and is doing a doctorate thesis about the lives of South African tribal women who do not go to school but remain in the tribe. (More than half of the blacks in South Africa still live the traditonal tribal lifestyle.) BTW, eventhough she is a leftie, we agreed that Islamic fundamentalism stinks. Anyway, to cut a long story short, she obviously could not fall for a guru being too independent-minded. I had to explain to her (it was embarassing) that I was not so lucky as I had been so discombobulated and ignorant 30 years ago when I got suckered. I look forward to hearing a lot more of her story. I also want to ask her a lot more questions about Sri Sri. We spent most of the time talking about South Africa of course. PS Sri Sri Raving Shagger looks like a drip to me. Maybe I am just becoming prejudiced against Hindu gurus. But, hearing that westerners are still falling for this crap, has made me realize that I'll be posting criticism of this eastern mumbo-jumbo until I see the last Indian guru's cremated holy ashes floating down the sacred Ganges. Prem does not have a monopoly on my antipathy towards gurujism. They all stink to high heaven.

Subject: Re: Definitely my last post - a gorgeous guru From: Vicki To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 10:19:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never fully understood 'bhaki' so I put it in Google....holy smokes there are dozens of sites. This one was rather concise and telling. I can't believe I was doing 'bhaki' for 28 years and didn't have a clue. I thought it was something new and quite sane, I mean what else would one do for the Lord Incarnate? It ALWAYS comes down to that one point....living manifestation of the lord. Bhaki www.ramsjb.com/talamasca/avatar/yoga1.html

Subject: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I heard that one before:) [nt] From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:26:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to PatC From: Bolly Shri To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:04:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry it's difficult to stop posting, but you know you like it. Did you ever encounter a guy (non premie when I knew him ) named Phil Singer in your neck of the woods? Looked abit like Frank Zappa.

Subject: Sorry, Bolli. No, I don't know him. [nt] From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Poem From: Neville Ackland To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: primemover@hypermax.net.au Message: Hi everyone. It’s Neville Ackland here. I wrote this poem, I don’t know the first thing about poetry and I’m sure it doesn’t follow the rules. Nevertheless, I hope you all enjoy it. It’s dedicated to my mum who died with a broken heart, a result of Maharaji’s demands on me and my belief in him. Sincere thanks to all the ex-premies who wrote and phoned immediately after my protest at the gates of I.R.C.C. on Sunday 21 April 2002. I have written Maharaji a letter which is quite confronting. I will post it on ex-premie.org as soon as I have time. Here’s my poem, hope you like it. By Neville Ackland It was ’72, I was 21 on a quest for the truth all starry-eyed. Along the way I met a man a boy in fact, who seemed so wise. He told me of a dream come true, a dream I’d dreampt myself one day. He said he’d be my God for me, a guru to surrender to. I prayed to God, could this be true? Is this the answer to my prayers? From my soul the answer came, the consciousness of bliss is here. So surrender to I surely did and when I did, I did some more. Then at last came my reward, to live a life to serve the Lord. To please him was my only need, he smiled at me and I saw God. I told my friends, what could they say, Divine light shone on my stage. My mother lost her only son, abandoned for a greater cause. Broken-hearted, health was failing, alone she turned to face the wall. She died this way, no compromise. I prayed for her to know the truth, that I was right and she was wrong, Maharaji was my living proof. A surrendered soul knows it’s home when resting at the Master’s feet. He was my Lord, he told me so, my spiritual journey was complete. The years went by, the mission grew, confusion reigned amongst the bliss. The Ashram’s closed, we never knew, this was life, and life was this. But the Master’s game had just begun, he became our God, in suave disguise. Only premies knew the truth, it became a sin to criticise. An image change is what he said would do the trick and make his day. I’m now a teacher, not a guru, and you’re my students not my slaves. Satsang service meditation all were changed to suit his whim. No more dancing, no more Krishna, to mention guru was a sin. The premies were his faithful children, at father’s feet they laid their heads. To keep the secret of the master was our duty, a solemn pledge. An explanation wasn’t needed, we all knew his secret plan, avoid the media and detection, the Lord of Lords was just a man. Behind the scenes he was our saviour, he looked so good in new disguise. So cool, so funny, such charisma, and now it seemed, so worldly wise. The dashing pilot, the super jet, the mansions cars and all that stuff. He deserved it, but didn’t need it, he needed no one including us. Massive projects he demanded, money was his greatest tool. When useless spending came to nothing, he played it cool, we played the fool. As time went by it became apparent, the boss’ plans were sometimes mad. We were only being tested, the doubting Thomas went underground. There were problems, and problem premies, those who were close to him, the privileged few. They protected their own interests, and the boss’ secrets grew and grew. Now there was a mega mansion, and Amaroo, a world away, became the focus of attention, not all was well, such fateful days. Some brave souls, within their prison, knowing where their motives lay, tried to take the reigns of progress, their cause was crushed, their spirit slain. One fateful day amid the madness, the penny dropped, at last I saw, Maharaji, master of deception, my heart broke, I smiled no more. Catatonic devastation, seething anger, revelation, my child shattered, nothing mattered, frightened friends head for the door. I begged forgiveness from my mother, dead and buried long ago. Ten thousand hours of consultation before the pain began to go. Spiritual crisis, all faith shattered, confrontation overload. My life’s focus all in tatters, God is dead…religion sux…Oh no! Alas for guru, lord and master, it was too late to patch the leak. Grief and anger, heartbreak sorrow, were met with silence, disbelief. He made it clear, the parent raged, how dare they think and speak their mind. It’s either my way or the highway, no one dared to cross the line. Shock and horror, children crying, fathers angry, we are failing, surrender further to the lila, we live to love another day. Criticism from the airwaves, information party time. Accusations in the real world, from those he thought he’d left behind. Haunted by that hunted feeling, looking for a place to hide, the man withdraws within his fortress, to play the game of mastermind. Things not getting any better, millionaire fat men aren’t the go. Support is leaking, it’s very messy, the mop brigade runs to and fro. Whilst he’s got his faithful premies that come for miles to kiss his feet, it’s easy to forget his worries, till next he looks in disbelief. The internet in all its glory kept his soldiers up all night. As dawn broke the truth was spoken, the master’s ears were filled with fright. Under cover, in the moonlight, the phantom struck, confusion reigned. Churches, councils, business leaders, all were caught up in the game. Meanwhile in the local town his reputation got around. Letters flying, spray paint splattered, leaflets littered on the ground. They called the police and blamed the Christians, Peak Crossing seethed with discontent. 5000 leaflets, the town was covered, the phantom struck with shrewd intent. 3000 premies, Sunday evening, the sun was setting on Ivory’s Rock. The lord had spoken and they were leaving, nothing prepared them for the shock. Someone boldly on the roadway, holding high a sign that read, “Maharaji, master of deceit. You broke my heart, you didn’t care.” The message made it loud and clear that in the court he would appear. He dared Maharaji, stand and face him, called him liar, coward, fool. The premies fled into the darkness, no one dared break the rules. Gone forever the hurt chid victim, in its place a new man born. No more fear, no more anger, the phantom’s friend was 10 feet tall. Secret’s out, his cover blown, the police and press are next to know. Amaroo will soon be over, the lord of lords will have to go. And as for you, Maharaji you gutless little shit, the game is up, your cover blown, it’s time for you to quit. Amaroo is surrounded, there’s no place left to hide. You always were the god of nothing, a victim of your foolish pride. My heart bleeds, for the premies so trapped within your snare, for when you fall, so will they be crushed by their despair. When next you choose to come to town, there’s one thing you can bet. I’ll be there with bells on, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Dedicated to the memory of my mum. You were right, I wish you could be here now.

Subject: An epic poem to be sure! From: Richard To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 09:30:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, Right on brother! Yours is an epic poem that tells it like it is. Your mum would be so proud of you for having the courage to blow against the wind of conformity. Thank you for sharing your words of passion. Gone forever the hurt chid victim, in its place a new man born. One of the rewards of speaking one's truth is to become one's self. Earlier word of your exploits at Amaroo elevated you to mythic hero status hereabouts. I propose that, henceforth, any similar protest of an M/PR event shall be known as Neville-ing! All the best, Richard

Subject: Organised protest From: Pat W To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:28:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one Neville. I was thinking about Neville's lone stand with sandwich board or whatever, at Amaroo. I am beginning to think that some sort of routine organised protest at Maharaji events worldwide would be a worthy cause even if only a few brave souls could muster up the courage. What we need is some sort of globally organised protest of this nature isn't it? I was thinking of all the 'apt' slogans that could be paraded. (probably deserving of a separate thread, no?) Hamzen asked below if anyone in the UK would be interested in some peaceful protest action during M's forthcoming visit to the UK (a friend emailed me this:Brighton is to be the unlucky recipient of Fatboy Not Slim on 22nd July followed a day later with an introductory programme at The Barbican. The church ladies have been asked to raise Ł35 per seat for the latter to cover costs. Ha bloody Ha! So, basically if a premie takes 2 guests they are Ł75 lighter!!) This set me thinking about organised protest and how it really would have an effect.What have we got to lose after all, according to Shri Hans we're all going to hell in a handbasket anyway - we might as well throw in our lot with Neville and really make a stand for the underdog. He who criticises both God and Guru is liable to croak like a frog for thousands of lifetimes together. If Lord Shiva (the Destroyer) becomes angry with you, Guru can save you. But there is no one who can help you, if Guru becomes angry. One should never go against his Guru, for Guru is both father and mother. He who thinks Guru Maharaj Ji is a human being is blind. He will remain very unhappy in this world, and death will not relieve him of his sufferings. Know that no one is superior to the Guru. If someone thinks the Guru is a human being, that is his misfortune. He is of dull intelligence like a bull without a tail. The entire world knows that Guru is greater than God. Shri Hans

Subject: Brilliant, wonderful, thank you! From: Francesca To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 22:18:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Neville, for telling your heart-wrenching story. Johnny Mac has told us of your bravery and your good heart. Peace to you, my friend, Francesca

Subject: In a nutshell...bloody brilliant Nev!!!nt [nt] From: Chris & Carla To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 18:26:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What DO you call that little funny feeling From: Jim To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 16:27:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that you get at the base of your spine when something really moves you? Anyway, pretty powerful stuff, Neville. It took me a moment to realize that you're the guy John MacGregor told us about. I tried to call you a couple of times but you weren't in. Great work on that. I'm sure your mother would be proud. Jim

Subject: Superb! From: Marshall To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: non Message: Hi Neville, You are wayyyy coool (so is the other Neville). What can I say? Great poem! Also, your 'one man stand' at Amaroo, is the stuff legends are made of! Have a Good Day, Marshall (b)

Subject: Thanks Neville.Please post the letter asap.nt From: la-ex To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: True poetry. Banjo would be proud!nt From: Bryn To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:29:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Banjo would be proud!nt From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:42:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's hope it's better than Banjo. Ist line of the original Waltzing Matilda : 'O there was a swagman camped by a water-hole' (transformed by his editor into : 'Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong...')

Subject: Banjo was good! Banjo was deep!nt From: Bryn To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:48:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The jumbuck was the Real Aussie From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The phrase 'waltzing Mathilda'(originally Mathilde) comes from the German, Mathilde being the overcoat or blanket of German soldiers, worn across the chest. Banjo didn't even know a water-hole was locally called a billabong. It seems to me the jumbuck is the real hero in this, as he is the only genuine Aussie in the business. Obstreporous POM Actually - this is said in jest. I've liked (mythical?) Aussies since seeing a film years ago called Forty Thousand Horsemen, about Anzacs during the war - all in floppy bush hats, with Lee Enfield rifles. Can you recommend any good material on Banjo? I've always loved Waltzing Mathilda. Started playing it on my piano yesterday after reading your post. I've no idea why they never made it the Oz national anthem. Cheers.

Subject: A Banjo P. cult? From: Bryn To: PJ Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:33:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PJ, I am no literary expert on ol'Banjo. I was given an anthology of his poetry two years ago for my birthday. Eventually I read some, then all of it! I liked it a lot. Call me old fashioned etc. It does have something to it. permit me: 'A kind of wry, gritty, maleness, individual, competetive, yet somehow vulnerable in the face of destiny' Yech. I don't like talking about poetry. Most poetry is too much already imo, let alone using it to generating more shite. I don't know of any stuff 'about' the man BP. But I do like and respect Nevilles poem above. Very much. it is definitely Banjoesque! Love Bryn

Subject: Banjo - not good but Great From: PJ To: Bryn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:48:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bryn, Banjo wasn't good - he was fucking great! Forgive a POM for mildly talking the piss, after years of the reverse direction. 'A kind of wry, gritty, maleness, individual, competetive, yet somehow vulnerable in the face of destiny'. Yeah - for sure! It also does apply to Neville Ackland - in spades, or, as you guys underneath might say, 'with bells on'. If you like good colonial stuff, however (take this from an effete pom, if you like) try Robert Service. He's all about the Yukon gold rush in 1899. One of my ancestors made the big trail from Darwin to the Fields, dug out his stash, avoided the claim jumpers, made it back to home, and bought a big house in, would you believe - Manchester?? That's an enormous joke in pom terms. Love,PJ

Subject: Re: Poem From: Bolly Shri To: Neville Ackland Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:48:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville A. Your poem says something isn't that what a poem is for? There are people who cared about me who are dead now and the opportunity to say anything is gone. My mother died about twenty years ago, I feel like she is in my life, having learned about her and the things she cared about in the years since then. What you did at Amaroo was admirable thank you LOL Bolly

Subject: soz! BETTER than one(nt.) From: AV To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:36:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Two Worlds? are they batter than one? From: AV To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: after a bit of an unkind gut reaction to JA's thingy below, I wanted to write a whole schpiel about the whole idea of retreating to an 'inner changeless world', as some kind of remedy for having become God's victim and ending up in a universe where, dammit, things are just sooooo fucking unreliable.... you get where I am heading, This is a real biggy, because I (and many others) are reaping the side affects of accepting the: CHANGELESS, 2 MUTABLE, 0 score system of human experience. Nature yields infinite beauty, infinite variety, and that is mimicked by our attempts at creation, the arts. Everything GOOD about life is inexorably bound to the constantly changing patterns around us; how drab to watch 'identi-clouds'! Yes it is 'good' to have a place of inner rest to return to, but I can't remember two meditations ever being the same? So how come we became caught up in the embrace of a thought sytem where a changeless reality was lauded as the ultimate, the pinnacle of human experience, and change was a product of the demon maya? 'A Change is as good as a Rest,' anyone?

Subject: Re: Two Worlds? are they batter than one? From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:21:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks AV, for the thought provoking thoughts The stillness of the raging river ... The stillness of the dance .... The 'flux' of life ... The movement of a pond ... All to be grabbed and immediatly let go off. Spontaneous moments of love. The wandering ancient mariner perhaps? All a bit hippy-trippy, I know, but their is no pursuit, IMO, our destination is the start. And yes change is as good as a rest. Things are soooo beautifully unreliable......yet we trundle along. Love, Thorin ps lets batter the worlds into one :)

Subject: Changelessness takes a battering From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:50:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I couldn't agree more, AV. It's such an emperor without clothes, this obsession with changelessness. The entire universe is in constant movement, and the only way I've found to get any sense of stillness has been to keep moving. Certainly sitting with rod-like spine trying to be 'still' and trying to 'stop the mind' and such static practices all seem like desperate resistance to the teeming, lively way of things to me these days.

Subject: Re static practices From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:32:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: static is OK when the pressure of being THE ONLY PLACE TO BE has been removed stllness s beautful also by contrast to the teemng; they need each other do you think? like a flame needs to be fanned by the wind to make it brighter. But with the rigid rule, the flame cannot bend with the breeze and is extinguished. Love AV.

Subject: Re: Re static practices From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 16:49:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, AV, you're right. I was being static in my adherence to dynamism! ;–)

Subject: To Disculta From: AV To: Disculta Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:00:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........breeze xx

Subject: Peter Pan and Never Never Land? [nt] From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:55:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah wots so great about changeless? From: Bryn To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 05:29:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good queston AV, how come? We certainly DID embrace the embrace you mention. I think the 'psychodynamic' theories of religion offer some insight. Freud, for all his oddities, gives some wonderously lurid accounts of human potential to jumble up identity, sexuality, God, infantile terrors, secret desires, passion, organic body functions etc. It's a swamp I'm still mapping and expect to be for a while. All respect to him I say, though I don't think a conventional interpretation of him works. You have to add a bit of mystic creativity to make it all live I think. For some reason I was born megalomaniac, and joining the elite of the immutable god people was fatally attracive to me. I really wanted to be an angel I spose-wierd thought now. I'm into Wilfred Bion at the mo. He's regarded as whacky and esoteric, but he doesn't half say things. Mr. B describes change as neccesserily 'an explosive' phenomenon. Once something genuinely new emerges into the system, the system is destined to be blown apart by it, and knows it! So leave no room for doubt in your mind or take the consequences. That's a possible answer for the above . How about the triumph of substance over form? Sheer desparation of soul demanding fixity at any price? Denial of ones own will, or ones will being so damaged/distant as to be considered unuseable or unrecognizeable? Simply side with the mighty flow (everywher y you go-o-o)and LO! you are 100 percent Gracemeister,cruising and slaloming between the lilas-all powerful! Wow I believed that one! Jesus has a lot to answer for on this one too, him being ALL loving, superman, never properly born and never actually dying etc. Thanks for the question, love Bryn

Subject: Re: Yeah wots so great about changeless? From: AV To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 07:56:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cheers Bryn, I believe (no, delete that..) I KNOW there is an experience of what FEELS like a changeless loving energy, but i've never been immersed in it for long enough to find out... given that it's a possibility, the TEACHING and/or INSTRUCTION from the one who put you in touch with that realm of conciousness needs to offer ONGOING support of how to reconcile that inner world with the challenges of day to day life without becoming withdrawn and reclusive. One of my MAJOR concerns was always that M advocated this idea of 'Living in M's World' with all the implied remarks about 'only one REAL boss' (re-employers, losing jobs by disappearing to events) , only one REAL family, etc etc. M was (and I assume still is..) secure in his 'Ivory Tower', not that he appears to be a particularly happy bunny, soooo sad considering the potential for good at the beginning, while everbody else , with the exception of a few wealthy honchos and PAMs have to 'cope' with the changes. But it the fact that the over-emphasis on the 'changeless state' rather than a natural balance was always hammered into my head from a great height has, years later made me anxious and fearful of change; never looking for the adventure of broadening horizons, but always scurrying back to the comfort zone , unwilling to face or deal with life at the sharp end. This is where my work has been, trying to heal this tendency, among others. How disabling. BTW, nothing wrong with angelic aspirations once in a while, a pair of sturdy wings can come in very handy...extrememly 'elegant' also!

Subject: Love From: Disculta To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV, you said: 'I KNOW there is an experience of what FEELS like a changeless loving energy, but i've never been immersed in it for long enough to find out.' I want to agree with this, in addition to what I said above. I can get down with the idea of there being an always loving energy behind it all. (Did you notice my contemporary use of 'get down with, btw - my teenage stepkids are here!). Always loving doesn't mean the same as changeless. I think the idea of changeless has been created in resistance to a sense of loss. I could go on and on about this, actually, but I won't. Love to you and thanks for this better-than-coffee chat. ktd

Subject: Joan Apter interview on K-lite From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:29:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is a vague, nebulous interview a premie recently did with longtime (former?) PAM, Joan Apter, for his vague, nebulous website: The Journal #7 - Joan Apter: No Longer a Luxury Here is another conversation I had with someone examining inner experience. Joan Apter is a licensed massage therapist, living in Woodstock, NY ONN Joel: When I talk to people about inner experience, they may say 'Yes, I know what you are talking about -- intuition, inspiration, and deep feelings.' But this is not what I mean. What do you find within yourself? Joan Apter: I find nothing! [laughs] There is so much outside. What I find delightful about going inside is that there is so little. It's the ultimate slowing down and quieting to focus within. The real question is how to focus within. Living in this community, I see many different ways of approaching the realm within. ONN Joel: How is your way of going within different? Joan Apter: What they have in common is a sincere desire to quiet the mind. People can say 'I quiet my mind by going into Nature. When I am out in nature, I find peace.' They have a point there, don't they? Some people say 'I find it when I am doing my work and concentrating. All of a sudden I go to another dimension of not thinking. I feel peace there.' That has validity too, cause the idea is to quiet the mind. The way that I've been shown also quiets the mind, takes me to a place of no thought, where I am not in the realm of thought or emotion. That is a very precious possibility. When I go within and practice the techniques of Knowledge I am looking for the same thing. Do I always achieve it? No. Have I experienced it? Yes. The possibility is an experience of what it is that keeps me alive, which actually sweeps me into itself and I am no longer in the realm of the mind and things, thoughts, highs, lows, good, bad, and all that. ONN Joel: I find that quieting my mind is not even necessary. I'd say there is something else within me besides thoughts, something which I can hold firmly on to. It may be more difficult when my thoughts are noisy but I can still hold on to it. Joan, what has your teacher had to do with your experience? Joan Apter: Well, if it wasn't for my teacher, I probably wouldn't want it as much. Because it was my teacher who gave me a glimpse, through his passion, of what is possible for me. I never even knew what is possible until my teacher sang me his song. We all have ideas of what is possible. He made it possible for me to even imagine longing for a place of love. ONN Joel: How is the inside realm different than the outside? Joan Apter: In the outside realm you have to put people on hold and talk to three people at a time while you are thinking about your plans for tomorrow, and thinking about preparing for tonight's class. The outside realm is all about multidimensional busy-ness. On the inside realm all you have to do is open up and enjoy and receive. Be thirsty, like a sponge. I would prefer for the outside realm to be more like the inside ... but it's not. ONN Joel: Do you find that your inside experience conflicts with the outside realm? Joan Apter: It's a question of reality. You live your life on the outside world, coping as best as you can with all that's there in front of you -- while keeping the filled feeling on the inside. I think the goal is to do them both at the same time. But, to tell you the truth, it's very tricky. ONN Joel: Why is it tricky? Joan Apter: Because it is hard -- hard to stay feeling full and grateful and satisfied from within and fight the fires around you. I find it very, very challenging. But I don't think, 'I prefer the inside and resent the outside world.' I want to be in a place where I am grateful. So it's tricky. ONN Joel: Has your outside life changed since you began to look within yourself? Joan Apter: The outside life is always changing. You have to cope with it. The outside world is always the same because things always change! Nothing stays the same. My inside life? There's something that is constant. Being aware of the inner world has made me more patient and sometimes I have a better sense of humor. But only if I don't take things too seriously. That's asking a lot, for me to not take things seriously, to realize that there is a constant inside and not sweat the small stuff. ONN Joel: Do you think that a feeling of constancy inside is something everybody can have? Joan Apter: Oh, yeah. Everybody already has that constancy. It's just a question of finding a way to hook into it. I am very aware that I've been given a gift that sets my practice apart from chanting and rites and external things. Maharaji gives such a streamlined and elegant path. I feel very grateful about that. ONN Joel: 'Elegant' -- That's the perfect word. He made it obvious that the way to go within is simply to go within. And he showed me how. That's elegance. Joan Apter: I think it is critical at this particular time to find a way to go within and practice a connection. We are going to need more and more to have people who really have something to offer. In order to have something worthwhile to give to the world, we need to find it inside. It is no longer a luxury for people to find a connection with their inner self. We have to find it. It's a must. It is worth the effort and it makes a big difference in the quality of life. The Online Noetic Network www.wisdomtalk.org/index.html

Subject: Why is this nauseating? From: Bryn To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:20:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....I mean it's full of good intent, and no-one is actually saying anything problematical about anyone else, but to me it is ...well, foul. I suppose it's because it is such a perversion of language, and the individual's use of language.. All the way through I can hear the influence, down to the phrasing, vocabulary, direction, nuances etc of his Holiness and the patterns of 'HIM'. THEIR thinking is almost completely absorbed into the thinking of Prem, but not quite! And its awful to hear this clumsy hybrid of individual and Master lumbering about. Please can we have one or the other folks? I couldn't be bothered to analyse any more. It is so depressing to read this stuff. 'Life-ers' is a word that comes to mind. Get rid of the baby, the bathwater, the tap, the plumbing and the entire house for god's sake, it's your only hope! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Why is this nauseating? From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 13:42:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's satsang,that's why it's foul & nauseating. Not your honest to god(sorry)straight up praise for the Bollixshwar & nazi rantings about surrender,that the lady was fond of delivering in front of thousands in the past,but it's still satsang. Yeah, you're right, she's got life for sure. Your mention of good intent reminds me of that old saying....William Blake?...'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Subject: Disturbing thing for me is. From: Peter Howie To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 19:18:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The disturbing thing for me is the question 'Has your outside life changed since you began to look within yourself?' It is disturbing because she could not possibly answer this question anymore. For her being without knowledge is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Most of her life has been with MJ. And guess what... she doesn't answer but does a great sideways answer. Lets face it, her and most of the lifers of MJ are really unable to say what life is like without MJ because they have had little or none for many decades. Oddly it is this 'life with knowledge' time that many have that we can utilise as our comparison now that we are 'out' - much like we did when we received K. Ironic huh! The other thing that is disturbing is that she is saying very little -there is little real positive appreciation going on in that interview. Sure it is pro-MJ but it is not really very significant from someone who has been in for years and years and years. When was her epiphany due. Its a bit late really. Cheers for now Peter Brisbane, Australia

Subject: ''I find nothing''----finally a shred of honesty [nt] From: bill To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:52:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: more like a shred of bullshit hit From: la-ex To: bill Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:42:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it is nice to see some premie finlly admit that what they find is nothing when they go inside... A few things come to mind when I read JA's drivel: 1)What is the difference between m's 4 techniques and and other meditation that is is supposed to help quiet the mind? Is that all he's offering now? A way to quiet the mind? It' a far cry from the original offering. Do I smell 'bait and switch'? 2)What happened to the 'kingdom within', with lights, sounds, vibrations and divine smells/tastes? Is it possible that no one ever experienced anything like that on any consistent basis, apart from some sort of random experience or wishful thinking induced momentary high? And because no one ever got the 'permanent residence' within, it's now advertised as nothing? (Kind of like 'Seinfeld' was a show about nothing, Pay Pal is a guru about nothing, with a meditation about nothing, and a teaching about nothing...?) 3)What is special about pay pal now is not that he has some sort of 'special powers' as the living perfect master, but that he can inspire you to go within. No mention is ever made of the original claims, when he exhorted us to 'shout it from the rooftops', that the perfect one is here, with full power and in full glory. Wasn't he supposed to sweep us all into the satyuga, from the kaliyuga? 3)Joan Apter is so full of shit, it's pathetic. She should go back and read her bullshit in 'Who is GM?', confront herself and gm, and apologize to the premies, especially the ashram ones, and work on a way to help them heal the maharaji-induced problems in their lives rather than cover them up, or pretend they never happened. Joan and pay pal deserve each other.

Subject: Re: and work on a way to help them From: AV To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:06:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Really!!! More than a few instances I found my self at the receiving end of her spiritual/emotional blackmail cosh. She's not the only one, I guess we took in turns, but she sure relished her reputation and standing. Thought those superpams were too good to be true......she could be talking about a new aromatherapy oil....how dilute can something get before it loses ALL it's taste.

Subject: Re: Joan Apter interview on K-lite From: AV To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:25:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1 'I never even knew what is possible until my teacher sang me his song.' aaah, so when I thought you were off meditating for hours at a stretch, you were actually having f*****g music lessons! 2.'He made it obvious that the way to go within is simply to go within. And he showed me how. That's elegance.' no it's not, it's instruction, get a dictionary. 3. 'sometimes I have a better sense of humor.' true, I find you hysterical. 4. 'On the inside realm all you have to do is open up and enjoy and receive' simple, innit! that's why premies are all so relaxed , humane and open. spinspinspinspinspspinspinspinspinspinspin grittily yours

Subject: Glaring contradictions? From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How come she refers to going to a 'place' within which is beyond emotion and yet she tries to maintain a feeling of gratitude in the result? How come she claims that we already have 'constancy' but we're just not constantly connected to it? Did she say 'tricky'? Hm..... :)

Subject: It's just too'elegant' for your mind, Jim.nt From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 13:05:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Keep going, premie ji -- almost there! From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:11:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From ELK: The distinction If I can't draw a distinction, between my ignorance and my Self-Knowledge, the only thing that remains to me, is my experience and understanding about my self And this was nothing before I started to experience and understand my master's teaching Stojan Svet Postojna, Slovenia

Subject: Wait, there's more! From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:15:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joyful, heartfelt ship Stojan Svet: From Postojna, Slovenia My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? My memory, as well is a part of my transparent clothing, So to what will I cling, when I lose it? At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. It is the only thing that's not in vain, This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me...

Subject: Late Review... From: Artie and Camilla To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 18:42:36 (PDT) Email Address: artieandcamilla@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Artie Snipes: Ok, we'll move on and talk about what's new in the poetry world. It seems the ever-prolific Stojan Svet has been attracting critical comment with his/her latest slim volume. Cynics sometimes remark that so much modern verse is essentially just prose – often bad prose, in fact, poorly-executed and with an embarrassment of ill-conceived and half-hatched metaphor - yet with a few random line-breaks thrown in to give it that 'look and feel' of a poem, but at the same time giving us a hint that perhaps irony is the name of the game. It's that whole nudge-nudge-wink-wink-so-bad-it's-good experience we have talked about right here before. What did you make of this, Camilla? Camilla Proust-Nugent: Well of Course Artie, 'random' line-breaks are the New Black - as this Slovenian Peasant implies in his Post-post-modern Discourse... My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? How Fluid, how articulate a Hint of irony yet subtly placed so euphorically (even, may I say, mesmerically) Under- Stated I am (as the discerning Listener may have noticed) deeply (neigh profoundly) moved By this Balkan peasant's appropriation of the lyric-iambic pentameter- form as A Derrida-like deconstruction of the ‘idea’ of the 'Body' How brilliant - Stojan (may I call you by your first name even though I haven’t shagged you yet?) you have uncovered (éxcuse le pun) what we all know, but deny – that the body Is not ‘there’ when we undress… Artie: Ahem..yes..ha-ha. I think most of our listeners and viewers know where you are coming from there. Well, some of them, anyway… Loved the disjointed style – see your point. Very…well.. very. But – hmm – I think our mail-bag might see one or two complaints about the ‘peasant’ reference. I think you have to bear in mind that the Balkans are very much not a cultural wasteland – not least, some would say, since Susan Sonntag and one or two other brave Western souls took drama, art and music to war-ravaged Sarajevo even before the last Serbian sniper had folded his rifle. So did I detect a note of class snobbery there with the peasant reference..? But, anyway, in the poem we have quoted, I was particularly taken by the phrase ‘my transparent clothing.’ Not being a Slovenian national myself (if you didn’t know – never been east of Watford - ha-ha), I have to admit to a certain uncertainty about Mr/Ms Svet’s gender. Transparent clothing might help us out a little here, no? Sexual ambiguity being what it is and everything… Camilla (on phone to agent - who is this moron? Look- can’t you find me an even semi-articulate creature to talk to?) Yes – well, where am I Coming from ? As if You would Know, you cretin. The point is, surely, that transparent clothing is a metaphor for the Sails – ‘I am sailing, I am Sailing’ ( as that great poet T. S. Elliot once Wrote - and he at least did NOT inhabit a cultural ‘Wasteland’) This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me... Joyfu L Shi P (Oh Stojan – I want you now) Artie:: Er… hmm. Well – quickly, before we go over to Theatre Roundup, perhaps I could add my tuppenceworth. Seriously, Camilla, don’t you ever get the teensiest bit pissed off with all this solipsistic, heartfeely, ‘breath is me, me is life, life is heart, heart is breath, life is life, life is nice’ shite..? Haven’t we been here before? No doubt it's endlessly interpretable subtleties it will ring a bell with many in your own circle, Camilla. But is it real life in the sense that people with, say, backyard lavatories would understand it? Camilla Yes, uuummm well, tuppenceworth worth – you said it … At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. Stojan, Yes, Yes, cling .... aaahhhhhhhhhhh!

Subject: Hampstead snobs...grrr :) From: Dermot To: Late Review Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 19:00:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hahaha...great stuff. :)

Subject: Re: east of watford From: hamzen To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:01:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If they came east of watford they'd be eaten alive There's already a hoxton square designer flavour getting too close to romford as it is, well they're into ilford now, having colonised leytoinstone Ahh let's see em at the moon & stars in romford high st, it would be hilarious, although not as hilarious as stovjan or whatever his name is turning up there next romford underground june 15th dermot, expect you there, I'll be playin some dubby stuff first up, then dj 3form will be doing plenty of braziliasn d&b, it really would be good to see ya's, and the vibe is sweet sweet sweet as they say

Subject: Re: east of watford From: Dermot To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:14:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It'd be good to make it to that shindig Ham. I've noted it. This time of year is always topsy turvy though....supposed to be chaperoning my Mater to and from Welwyn Garden City/Southampton though I've 4 brothers and none of us are sure who's doing what and when.All I know is my younger bro is bringing her down from up North.I could well be in WGC but i think there's a direct train....anyway we'll see. I'm about to head for Cornwall soon too as I'm trying to find a decent flat/house to rent or mortgage in Penzance/St Ives/Hayle area..or at least Exeter/Plymouth way ...depending if Broadband has stretched to the tip of Cornwall:) Can't stand this BT Anytime for much longer, too slow. I'll do my best to make it though.....June 15th. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Dermot - you have psychic powers OT From: Camilla To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blimey. I've just spent the last hour doing web searches for mortgages, then thought I'd mosey on over here to see if anyone had responded to my rather scintillating (if I say so myself) post that I did with my partner in crime. Anyways, said partner and myself are highly likely to be in London on June 15th - so maybe I'll get to meet you in 3 dimensions! Best Moley (ooops, I mean Camilla)

Subject: Re: Dermot - you have psychic powers OT From: Dermot To: Camilla Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 20:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure thing Moley, if I'm around. I'll get to meet most people eventually.....whenever that is. Sorry about that personal shit the Dave fella posted above....I'll say it a second time.....JERK :) Cheers me dear Dermot

Subject: It makes you wonder From: Marshall To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:36:39 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: It seems like a lot of the strangest poems on ELK come from Slovenia. Kinda makes you wonder what's going on in Slovenia? Where is Slovenia? Isn't that a former soviet province?

Subject: European Geography From: JHB To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:46:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It seems like a lot of the strangest poems on ELK come from Slovenia. Kinda makes you wonder what's going on in Slovenia? Where is Slovenia? Isn't that a former soviet province? --- Slovenia is a former Yugoslavian province. Although Tito was 'communist' he definitely wasn't Soviet, and almost brought Yugoslavia to war with the Soviet Union by defying them. And in spite of preventing war between the Serbs and the other ethnic groups within that artificial state for 50 years, he was a right bastard. Anyway, the Slovenian poems are all from one sad premie. John.

Subject: Small, cultured,relatively prosperous From: Dermot To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 17:49:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....and supposed to be a nice little country, to boot. I think it was the first(?) to get out of that Yugoslav turmoil and go it alone, wisely keeping out of all the bloodletting. It's also aspiring for EU membership.

Subject: I like this one, it's very .... zen From: JHB To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:28:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My body is my only garment. So with what will I identify, when I undress? Very much in the style of 'What was my original face before I was born'. My memory, as well is a part of my transparent clothing, So to what will I cling, when I lose it? After unclothing my body, and losing my memory, what am I? What is left? No, this is good stuff. At present my breath is clinging, to my dear heartfelt feeling. Hang on, I've lost my body, which includes my lungs, so what's this breath thing? Shit I can't remember. It is the only thing that's not in vain, This joyful ship is all that now remains, to me... Ship? What's a ship? Where am I? What am I? I seem to remember wanting to know this once, but it's so foggy. Something to do with a young boy from India. I was a young boy once. Did I tell you nurse? We used to play football in the park. An old Indian gentleman used to watch us. Gave us sweets. I'm so tired now. I was thinking about something. The truth. Nearly found it.... I think.... but it's all too difficult to remember. Falls into a merciful and final sleep.

Subject: LOL .JHB! and...(ot) From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 04:36:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gongratulations on your nations triumph in the Eurovision. Haven't rung Drake yet but will. love Bryn

Subject: Re: I like this one, it's very .... zen From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:48:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HOMEWORK: Write a short poem in the style of the mystics (Rumi, etc.) ... rustle rustle rustle rustle rustle rustle.... mmmmmmm...... 3 out of ten, see me after class.

Subject: Tittering to myself :) :) :) [nt] From: Jim To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:32:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Turning a blind eye is a western tradition From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 05:14:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all! Things are moving along. This has probably been posted and discussed a blillion times its just that I thought of it recently so for me it is new and original - if such a thing exists. Anyway - I've been reflecting on the propensity for our cultures to turn blind eyes to crooked deals going on. The Catholic church has been responsible for appalling things for nearly 2 thousand years and it still has adherents. All the arguments against MJ are true for the catholic church as far as I can see. I can't see one MJ argument that doesn't follow for the RC church. And there are plenty more as well that the RC church has thet MJ hasn't yet risen too or is likely to rise too. Starting adn conducting wars for instance. Anyway the other churches have been as bad at different times so there no excusing them either. I mean a church that is created in order to allow a King to remarry and keep more money, amongst other things. Henry the 8th and the Anglican church with now the British Queens being the head of the church. Yeah right! What all this means is that as a culture we (meaning the largely western mobs)have been long programmed to take abuse and keep asking for more. I mean these church things have enormous wealth, enormous political strength yet they are cults based on a dead jewish carpenter. I turn on TV and heard someone talking about how the world was created 6000 years ago. So it is now at all surprising that premies remain premies. Or that PAMs remain or that X rated premies remain. After all, people close to the pope and cardinals know what goes on. People read daily of neglect and abuses by the church here in Australia and they remein faithful. So for premies to remain premies. Not so surprising. Christians remain christians. Our culture doesn't have a broad education that creates robust independence in thought and spirit. Thats it for now cheers Peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: A western tradition, or a human condition? From: Chuck S. To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:26:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the major religions of the world began as 'cults'. And what is a major religion, but a cult that has established itself? The cult leader dies, a bunch of rules get made, and the cult seems less threatening without a living leader, so it becomes a religion. Religions like Catholisim and the Mormons have living leaders, but they are elected or picked via processes within those institutions, they don't just appoint themselves. Within those institutions, there is some accountability, however imperfect. All the major religions of the world often have cults existing under the general umbrella of the organization. For example, The People's Temple was a registered member of the Association of Methodist Churches. There are charasmatic cults existing inside the Catholic Church. There are Mormons who still practice polygamy, in defiance of the Main Church. In India, as the Rhadasoamis have become more mainstream, they have created a board or council that requires gurus to adhere to certain standards. Gurus like Maharaji and his father who don't fit those standards are 'cults'. In India, cults are more prevelant because anyone can suddenly declare themselves as guru. Cult isn't a dirty word there, it's much more common and taken for granted. Even in the west, cults find a niche in which to thrive. I think you make a good point Peter, that when it comes to people's religious beliefs, they seem quite willing to make irrational excuses and look the other way, in ways they would never do in other areas of their lives. I was literally told this by one of the members of the Participation Commitee I was working with, when I complained that we were wasting time and money on things that achieved nothing; I was told that sound business practices were the sensible thing to do in ordinary life, but in the realm of Knowledge, doing what the Master wants us to do, no matter how seemingly wasteful, was more important than what we think is common sense. It seems that rationality and sacred cows have a hard time existing side by side.

Subject: Re: A western tradition, or a human condition? From: Livia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 06:17:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just found a book I must have had for years called 'Shopping for a God'. It's about cults and makes a lot of references to Maharaji. It's written from a Christian perspective but still makes a lot of reasonable observations. It talks about Maharaji's money, and the fact that he originally put himself across as God, then said he wasn't, and then said he was again! It even says that a lot of people couldn't take what amounted to blatant revisionism back then, and left. I must have read this book but it obviously had no effect on me whatsoever because I was a devoted premie at the time. Now of course the book seems to be talking just plain common sense. Why couldn't I see it then? But I just couldn't, and didn't. From the point of view of a devoted premie, the revisionism and lies and denial around the Jagdeo issue are mere trifles and irrelevancies when held up against the enormous conviction they feel. It's easier for them to bury their heads in the sand than to deal with the uncomfortable truths they would have to face. Same with the Catholic Church, Sai Baba and any other religion or belief system. There are people in Germany (not many, but they exist) who still believe Hitler was the best thing that ever happened to Germany. Belief systems, especially when inculcated at a young age, are incredibly difficult to shift. And when a belief system such as the one we took on is accompanied by an experience that can make you feel peaceful and happy, it's even harder to shift because it gives the belief more weight. Take away the belief, though, and you can't help wondering how much effect the experience would have. And take away the belief and no one would accept the lies and revisionism for a second. This is the power of belief to corrupt. Livia in a somewhat ponderous mood

Subject: Would it be worth it to .... From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:47:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: put quotes from that book on EPO?

Subject: quite possibly [nt] From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:35:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Buddhist vipassana meditation From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 21:21:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Buddhist vipassana meditation is also called insight meditation or bare attention. Adopt the roll of the witness. Don’t evaluate or judge your actions and thoughts; merely note them and let them be. Stop trying to change, resist or ignore things; just get up into the stands and be a spectator. You can transcend your mind by experiencing it directly. Here's how: - Get comfortable and close your eyes. - Just register thoughts and states in the present. - Don’t think about your thoughts, merely note them. - Let your mind wander and observe how it works. - Be present to your story. - Accept what is for you. - Embrace your experience. - Take your finger off the repress button and watch your thinking, listen to what you are saying to yourself, feel your feelings. - See, hear, and feel what is there for you. Do this for about 20 minutes day and you will experience that opening of the mind and arrive at the jewel of emptiness.

Subject: A Buddhist funny From: Richard To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:39:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Q: What did the Buddhist say to the hot dog vendor? A: Make me one with everything. www.northernsun.com/nsm/images/1680OneWith.jpg

Subject: Re: A Buddhist funny From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:11:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: arfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarf LOL

Subject: Re: A Buddhist funny From: cq To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... so the vendor of hotdogs (secretly a Boddhisattva?) makes him one, and asks for payment. The guy gives him a $10 bill, and the vendor walks away with it. 'Hey, where's my change?' shouts the guy after him. The vendor shouts back: 'Don't you know? Change comes from within ...' boom, mani padme om, boom.

Subject: Nirvana u look, the less u see! From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:14:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: That's a real LOLOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 10:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: like joan A said, ''nothing'' [nt] From: bill To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:53:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Pantheism (again) From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 00:36:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I find I'm not much interested in being empty, tho' I can see the attraction. But, on a more generalised note: Religions worldwide have recognised that selfishness is the fundamental human problem. Legalistic religions (Judaism, Islam) deal with this with laws to control selfishness; Christianity's approach is the transformation of self (being 'born again'); the 'eastern bloc' approach (Hinduism, Buddhism--and, incidentally, M's shtick) is the annihilation of self. So at the root of Buddhism (which is, after all, just radical Hinduism) is the same impulse: the view that the self is something to be eliminated as maya, distraction, and its techniques amount to complicated and spiritualised ways of committing suicide. Hence my disinterest. Practice what you wish, but be aware the path ultimately leads over a cliff. Neville

Subject: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 02:18:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've dropped little interesting tidbits in here and there but have never elaborated. I'm curious about your take on it. You write well so I'm sure it will be interesting to a lot of us. Just call me nosy.

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Me too Nev; the sinister thing about forms of meditation practice is the inherent rejection of yer actual everyday normal waking conciousness as on OK place to be. If there is ' a subtle energy which is pleasant and rewarding to experience', and one can feel it by, basically, shutting the fuck up for a while, then no harm?? But boy ,sometimes that comes with so many hooks it can seriously, and I mean SERIOUSLY screw up the fragile balance of the mind.

Subject: Yeah. I'd rather watch the flowers grow. [nt] From: Neville To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:07:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: Bolly Shri To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 06:54:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I read yesterday PatC that you were taking a break from posting. Obviously you can't resist and it is becoming an addiction. I sent the check to GodsRus and am expecting enlightenment soon if not later. LOL Bolly

Subject: Re: So what is your schtick, Neville? From: Neville To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 03:51:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, Nosy. You might call me a student of religion, as ever since I got out of DLM (yes, it was that long ago) I've kept an eye on religious phenomena. But my personal conviction is that no-one equals the authority of Christ. One of the things that disabused me of M was reading the New Testament and finding out what it *actually* teaches (as opposed to what premies said). I found it contradicted M at every point. But I also found a level of authority that nothing has ever equalled--and I include things like the Qur'an and the Bhagavad Gita in that assessment. As far as I can see, Christ is the only horse in the race: if he wasn't a genuine invasion of the divine into our world, then no-one is. That certain institutions have twisted his teaching into the diametric opposite of the original intention is another issue entirely. Sermon over. (Well, you asked.) Neville

Subject: Christ, I thought so From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:29:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I picked up a whiff of old-fashioned christian values reading between the lines of your posts. One day when I have more time hopefully we can have a real conversation about that. I regard myself as an atheistic Anglican (I like the morals and the culture but not the theology.) Mickey the Pharisee has chided me for that. Mickey is an Epicopalian priest. Re-evaluating our christian tradition also helped me see through the primitive crap like Hinduism and Maharajism. Like you, I prefer to just watch the flowers grow. :C)

Subject: Re: Christianity and Christ From: Tim G To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:04:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I seem to remember that H.L.Menchen said something to the effect of 'There would have been a lot less trouble in the world if there had been a decent lunatic asylum in Jerusalem 2000 years ago'. I can't help but agree, with all due respects to J.Christ as another fellow human being of course. Religion and belief has done untold damage to millions and seperated people from the actual experience of their lives by introducing some conceptual goose chases adorned with inviting goals and rewards. That's MY halfpence worth Dear Cyberfriends!

Subject: Apologies in advance From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 05:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Couldn't help myself as I just sent another new post. I guess that you have noticed that your justification for the church is the same one that Catweasel uses to seperate his experiecne from EV. An why does what Chirst have to say have to be divine? What can't it be human in a context that requires spruiking the divine? Why is all worthwhile human endeavour seen as divine? Somewhat rhetorical but respond if you have time or inclination Cheers Neville peter howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Re: Apologies in advance From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:00:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Peter. I'm not familiar with Catweasel's arguments. (What’s 'spruiking'?) I *think* this is an answer to your post: I've thought for many years about how something as clear and plain as Christ's teaching could result in the ghastliness of church institutions and certain appalling inhumanities, and it has lead me to see 'religion' itself as a fundamental human corruption that will always rise up if given a chance. I'm a Christian who *hates* religion. This is not actually a paradox. After all, who was it Christ called, 'a nest of snakes', 'whitewashed tombs', 'liars like your father', and 'hypocrites'? (And that was just the warm-up.) The woman caught in adultery? A tax collector? No, this verbal machine-gun he reserved exclusively for the *religious people*. In every culture there is some manifestation of this disease—with its piety, traditionalism, legalism, institutionalism, mindless, neurotic ritual and so forth. To my mind Christ hated religion, Christ’s teaching is fundamentally anti-religious, and the history of Christianity is largely a fight by those with some genuine spiritual sensitivity to escape the rising walls of religion (and they always rise). Martin Luther and the Reformation is a large-scale example of a frequent, smaller-scale phenomenon. (I remember noticing how quickly DLM became 'religious', instituting rituals such as the singing of arti. The version we sung actually had a line in it about how rites and rituals were useless.) Could Christ have been merely human? Was he (as Melvyn Bragg put it) just a failed apocalyptic? Personally, I don't think such an interpretation explains the phenomenon of Christ--it doesn't add up. I can sympathise with anyone so fed up with M's bullshit they want to find purely human solutions, but I am also too aware of philosophy and human limitations--that without access to something transcendental nothing we do has any lasting meaning or purpose. Without such a connection to the transcendental we are just like Galilee fishermen, fishing to live, living to fish, net result (no pun intended) zero. Then Christ came and said, 'Come with me, I will make you fishers of men.'—and that (mixing metaphors) was another ball game entirely. Neville

Subject: Re: Apologies in advance From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your thoughtful response. Spruiking - what a vegetable grower does in the marketplace to sell their wares. What ads do on TV. What trolls do here on this site. Firstly - Catweasel's argument. 'Its just me and MJ. The premies and the organisation are all bullshit. It is just me and him. So therefore everything on this forum is just another version of the stuff to be ignored or had fun with and doesn't have anything really to do with MJ and the real inner story. (imagined self saisfied sigh!!!)' For your second part - and I ask/present this in the spirit of the discussion we have started. Which from my end is presenting you with my conundrums/challenges and you responding with how it looks from your neck of the woods. Well first up - yes I largely concur that it is more a human condition than just a western one. I was thinking western because I started with catholosism and I don't like to be too much of a cultural imperialist. The question remains is why do you need to find meaning? Now I don't mean that in a silly manner. I myself like, and at times need to find meaning. I ask it because I have come across many people who have no need to find meaning. My wfe for one. Now in the days when I was a premie I would have put this down to their not being spiritually advanced enough to even ask the question. Now after many years in adult education I've discovered that there are people who are balanced and happy and are not obsessed with meaning - even after having money, secutrity and other needs met. So the question is - why do you seek or require meaning. And to allow this question to stay with you awhile. If you have the answer too fast then simply ask 'why do I believe that...?' to your next answer. I've also found many people who want to make a lasting contribution to 'humanity' or the 'greater good' and these people are very inspiring and non-religious. Cheers for now Peter Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:13:22 (PDT) Email Address: nrbarnes@btopenworld.com Message: Hi, Peter. Your question is a good one. Meaning is important because without it nothing we do has any point. I can turn around the question: Why bother to get up in the morning? Even, why bother to take another breath? What will it achieve? The vast bulk of our activities relate to blind biological imperatives—even some of most cherished feelings are revealed as mere biology. We may as well be algae. Is this good enough? I know lots of people who have apparently happy lives without addressing this issue, but then again if you look at the ministry of Christ there is a pattern. He would confront these same people and (a) show that there *is* some *one* thing around which their lives revolve (money, family, popularity, religious standing etc), (b) reveal this as a false god, because it is finite and thus cannot deliver meaning, then (c) present himself as the 'proper god', the link to the transcendental by which lives can be made meaningful. So part of the answer to your question is that we all almost certainly *do* look to something in our lifes to give it meaning. I don’t think any of us—consciously or not—can actually keep going without some apotheosis, a cornerstone to our existence. There *is* some reason why we get up in the morning. Secondly, this apotheosis is inevitably limited, a false god, probably a self-delusion, unworthy of our commitment. Neville

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again, I'll persist a bit longer. You said 'Meaning is important because without it nothing we do has any point. I can turn around the question: Why bother to get up in the morning? Even, why bother to take another breath? What will it achieve? ' I see this as a preference for looking at life through the window or perspective of 'meaning'. Now to lay my cards on the table - I can completely get with what you are saying - and it is my preference - otherwise I swouldn't have been able to stay with MJ so long (13 years). But I do challenge ou to consider that 'meaning ' is not th only worthwhile lens to look at the world from. This is my challenge as well. 'The vast bulk of our activities relate to blind biological imperatives—even some of most cherished feelings are revealed as mere biology. We may as well be algae. Is this good enough? ' It could also be that there are certain temperaments of a biological nature that also include 'the search for meaning'. Which could mean that the search for meaning is a biological imperative. Much of what you say, while I agree with it, is still asked and posed through the lens of 'meaning'. If 'the lens of 'meaning' is considered just that. A lens - a way of looking at life - a way of looking at the world, as one of numerous 'ways' of looking at the world. So in that sense it has an element of tautology. Cheers and I hope this is useful for you because it sure is for me. Peter Howie Brisbane

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Robyn To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:38:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Peter and Neville, I have so enjoyed reading this thread so far and wanted to thank you. I come to certain theories on things and when I find a similar practice or belief in a religion I am attracted to it and check it out but no one has ever seemed to fit me overall. Still I find that my coming to conclusions that then also show up as parts of religions speaks to, at least, the universality of some basic premisses(sp) which facinates me also. I lean toward there being no god in particular but more of a consensous of nature. I don't really think about it, just lables anyway. I agree with you Neville about religions. I call it the institutionalization of something that started out good but is then, in an attempt to preserve it, is so structured as to cut off the life giving, changing air. It then becomes ridged and pron to the very things it preaches against, judging others, greed, whatever, in the structure of the organization. I can't stomach it. As for meaning, I try to live the best I can. That is very simply said but can be very challenging and difficult also gratifying and clicking right along timing wise. At the end of your posts, Peter, I have been amused by your Brisbaine, Austraila. I thought of a way to counter this myself. Love, Robyn Countrybumpkinville, USA :)

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 02:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I doubt very much if a quest for meaning can have any biological origin. Indeed, at least one theory of aesthetics says that our sense of beauty is a Darwinian mechanism designed to divert intelligent minds from dwelling on the issue of meaning--so sunsets and mountain ranges provide a fake sense of meaning that can keep us going even when our intellect tells us it is pointless. The quest for meaning must be a function of the mind, or even, perhaps, the soul--it might be evidence of our spiritual natures. Certainly, the question of meaning is a particular perspective to take on life, but should we then regard it as a purely relative matter? I don't think so--I think it is a universal human problem. To put it another way: take what perspective you like, it will still show that we are in deep sh*t. Neville

Subject: Re: Meaning From: PatC To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 14:01:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our Meaning in Life by Richard Carrier Isn't life pointless? Why should the atheist bother? It's all just going to end anyway, right? How does the atheist's life have meaning? The mere fact that consciousness exists, that some person exists who can see and know and create and manifest everything good for others and find happiness in living, is the most astounding thing of all. It does not matter if it is brief, for merely the opportunity itself is priceless and our being here, to acknowledge it, to study it, to know it, and to love it, gives the universe meaning. If we did not exist at all, then the universe would indeed be pointless, but since it becomes meaningful the moment we come to know and appreciate it, our lives share in that meaning and become the most valuable thing that can ever exist. From a point of view outside of time, everything, past and present, exists eternally: our lives sit forever like pearls on a string of time. What we do with our life, what we make of it, how we enjoy it, can never be taken away. It becomes a part of what exists, adding to it's value, like gems in a purse. The sages have said it for millenia, and it is true. It really is love that is key: love of learning, love of doing, love of others, love of ideals, love of country or cause, anything, everything, is the foundation of meaning. If we lacked that, we would be miserable and our lives pointless even if we lived forever. Even if we droned on with praises for a supreme being in heaven for all eternity our existence would be superficial, trite, unsatisfying, and ultimately a torture. Thus, the key lies in finding your loves and pursuing them, manifesting that love in defiance of a universe that won't. What is worth loving? The potential of humanity, the power of reason, the comfort of another's love, the pursuit of knowledge and truth, the beauty and joy of human experience, and the nearly unlimited power of the human will to endure almost any hardship or solve almost any problem. And that is just the short list. How many wonderful people do we know, or could we know if we sought them out, who are worth loving, loving merely for the fact that we wished there were more of them in the world, and that they alone would give us a meaning to live? Even when I look at something magnificent in nature, the stars, the wilds, the musculature of a sea lion, the beauty of a nebula, I think to myself 'How fantastic!' How pointless that beauty would be if I didn't notice and appreciate it. How valuable I am because I can. Immortality is inconsequential in this equation. We have no ground to fear death, for death is the end of fear itself, and what is to fear in that? We live for only one reason: because we love life, all of it, any of it. And if it disappoints us that there is not enough happiness in the world, not enough goodness, we can contribute toward rectifying that, and that is what gives our lives meaning. The more good things we can create or teach and thus leave behind for others, the more lives we can light up with our company and companionship, the more precious our short existence will have been, and the more satisfied we will be that we used our bank account of life well, and thus deserved our measure. I have faced death on a few occasions, and yet I was always calm and accepting. On the one hand I knew I would no longer have any worries or pains when I no longer exist, and on the other hand I had lived a good life and done some small good, things that would never have been had I not existed at all, and my short span of knowing, enjoying, loving it all was well worth it. By making the universe that little bit brighter and more meaningful, my own life had value and meaning as a consequence. For those who want to know more about how one can be happy in the face of death, I always recommend Bertrand Russell's The Conquest of Happiness. It was written for a social climate that has changed somewhat, but the fundamental ideas are universal, and well-put. I also always recommend a twenty-four-hundred year old epistle that remains as poignant today as then: Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus. Avid readers might consider a wealth of other things that might be worth looking up. E. D. Klemke has also compiled numerous essays on the subject in his book The Meaning of Life, and previous authors have also touched on the issue here on the Secular Web: see Keith Augustine's Death and the Meaning of Life, and James Still's Death Is Not an Event in Life (to which Christian critic Kevin D. Huddleston responded in Afterlife and Meaning). In addition to all this, on love I have written more myself, in Of Love, Brunettes, and Biology. And I have written more on the reasons to live a moral life in Does the Christian Theism Advocated by J.P. Moreland Provide a Better Reason to be Moral than Secular Humanism?. Others have recommended the essays of a man who really looked into the Abyss and addressed it more honestly and directly than any other: Albert Camus, especially The Myth of Sisyphus. But when you seem trapped by depression, you are probably as unwell as you would be with a dangerous flu, and the reaction should be the same: to seek medical help. The cure often requires a professional touch. Therapy can help you discover (or rediscover) what you love about life, and to come to terms with your fears. For example, an atheist, Dr. Albert Ellis, is the father of REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy) for the treatment of depression and other problems. On this matter, David Burns has written a book for the layman called Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy that comes highly recommended. However, sometimes the emotions that torture you are a chemical or other biological malfunction and thus need medications to correct, and thus professional diagnosis should always be sought when things get bad. If you feel you need a counsellor with a secular perspective, you can seek a referral through the American Humanist Association or the Humanist Society of Friends. But even as you seek help, also keep in mind home remedies that supplement the professional. Eat well and exercise. Take long walks in nice places. Take up a cause you feel good about and work to help others in some way that comes easily or comfortably to you, do any sort of good works. And above all, seek to maintain a happy, social interaction with other people. Studies have proven that people with a cause they care about and who have even a small but enriching social life live longer, happier, and healthier, and if it's good for your health it's good for your mind. For I can summarize all of this in one sentence: a healthy mind in a healthy body, pursuing and manifesting what it loves, is the meaning of life.

Subject: Re: Meaning From: Robyn To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 18:24:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'It really is love that is key: love of learning, love of doing, love of others, love of ideals, love of country or cause, anything, everything, is the foundation of meaning. If we lacked that, we would be miserable and our lives pointless even if we lived forever.' This is beautiful Pat. I know you can't be just who you are here but this has become so forgien from the PatC I know of here. How does that mean spirt fit into this. No one is perfect. I know. Love, Robyn

Subject: I've been meaning to talk to you, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:10:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that essay by Richard Carrier is great. Now, let's talk. When you and I first met, we got on well because we did not know each other well and yet had a few things in common. Then we hardly talked at all for over a year because you seldom posted here. I don't know if you have read the things I posted during the past year. If you think that I have suddenly changed from being the friendly person you first met into someone who is ''mean spirited'' you are mistaken. In the past month or so, since I chastised you for attacking Jim (a highly respected and well-loved contributor to the forum) in defense of Quiet (a silly anonymous malicious troll) I have watched your behavior on the forums and observed that you are only here to socialize. You seldom know what is really going on and seldom actually seem to read anything other than chitchat. There's nothing wrong with chitchat but that's not all that's happening here. I'm not going to explain my behavior to you let alone try to make excuses for it. I don't think I need to make excuses for what you perceive as ''mean spiritedness.'' I know that I was simply being blunt and honest but I was also aware of a lot more than you were. I'm here because I share the same distaste for Rawatism (and other New Age nonsense) as Jim, Nigel, Moley, Patrick W, Marianne, Cynthia and a host of oldies and newbies. You seem to be here to chat with anyone who is ''nice'' to you. Those are such disparate agendas that I doubt if you and I will ever see eye to eye about our involvment on the expremie forums. In fact I think there's a lot of stuff you and I would not see eye to eye about. That doesn't mean that I don't think well of you or won't be kind to you. But kindness can be very misplaced when it is simply strewn everywhere indiscriminately as I think you would wish it were. I don't care what your history with Jim is. The fact is that he and I agree about how to use our time here in this little cyber-world. Your agenda here doesn't bother me. It's just that I don't simply like ''killing time'' on the net but prefer to stick to the subject which is to discredit not only Rawat but all that Hindu mumbo-jumbo. When you attacked Jim you basically attacked the purpose of my presence here. PS I enjoyed your description on LG of having darshan and how that drove you away from the cult when you saw that Rawat's eyes displayed only boredom and annoyance or something like that.

Subject: Robyn misunderstood From: Marianne To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 19:54:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat and Robyn: Of course I cannot speak for Robyn. But I do know her in person and in ways that others here do not. I also know Pat and his family. I do not think Robyn has an agenda. She's a caring person who has tried to stay above the fray in my opinion. She is a good and strong person who has had her share of difficult and demanding experiences in her life, with her family. It seems to me that those experiences, like the rest of us, inform her reactions here and on other forums. She is my valued friend. My history with her is a good and positive one, and I am glad to call her my friend. Marianne

Subject: Re: Robyn misunderstood From: Robyn To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 04:06:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Marianne, Thank you, your post brought a tear to my eyes. Ditto. :) Pat, Maybe I did ask how you reconcile your mean spiritedness to your post above. I really meant to point it out to you to consider. You see I really try to LIVE my LIFE by those words and that means here and there, everywere. Wether it is easy or hard or wether I am happy or annoyed with someone's post I read. No excuses. I am far from perfect but that is what I strive for. I don't wish you ill either but I am extreemly leary of you and am relieved that I never had the time to open up to you in the past, which I meant to do in email. I have had a very intense few years. Things are improving and settling down and I can even say that the worst thing I ever faced in my life has turned around to be almost a blessing a year later. All of these things in my life have kept me from contributing what you think of as valuable posts on my part and have also kept me from reading all of your or anyones posts here still I keep some sort of connection to the people on these forums. They have been some part of my life for 5 or so years. Belive it or not I do have substance, I am just doing something about my cause which is not m, in my physical life which also takes a lot of time. So I am also kind. Too me that is a plus. Love, Robyn

Subject: Sorry, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 10:15:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can you waste time (yes I value my time) blowing air kisses and talking trivial nonsense to Mili, Catweasel and the other anonymous trolls on LG knowing full well that these people either did or know who is responsible for CAC and meanwhile you attack Jim and me defending them? As I said - you may be nice but you're naive. You said: ''I am just doing something about my cause which is not m...'' If discrediting M and K is not your cause, perhaps you could explain what it is that you are doing on the forums because it sure seems like all you really want is to chat and socialize with anyone who is nice to you. Well, those cultweasels that you're chatting to are fakes and actually vicious if you only took the time to look at what they have done to disrupt the forum and attack new posters and spread disinformation and cult propaganda. You may not realize this but, by cozying up to them, you are in fact giving them credence and undercutting everything that I stand for. How can you bear to keep such unethical company as those cult apologists? As long as you're chumming around with people who have done nothing but play games and tell lies on the forum, I can't respect you. Sorry. Of course I'm also sorry to hear that you have been living through difficult times but none of us are immune to troubles.

Subject: Re: Sorry, Robyn From: Robyn To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:48:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pat, If I am a waste of your time then why do you spy on my posts and report back to Jim and try to tell me what to do and how to live my life. You'd save hours right there. Not only have those people never wronged me or been cruel to me but you have been vicious to me but to others also, as I mentioned before and then say your sorry, not to me of course and excuse your behavior because you were drinking, whatever. I find that type of behavior untrustworthy for myself. I don't know anything about CAC full well at all and how in god's name could I know that if they didn't have anything to do with it that they know who did? Maybe I am naive although a lot less over the years but I would rather stick to my own beliefs, that love is the key, and be burned a few times but get someplace I want to be eventually and be able, still to respect myself and my methods. I am honest with premies about my feelings about m & k. I don't try to please them with my thoughts and they don't tell me what to do. I have many, many, ex-premie friends also. I didn't have a bad time in the cult and although I support the truth being there for its own sake and though I learned a lot from the information available, it is not and never has been my main focus. I have learned a lot about people in general and myself in particular writing here and I don't apologize for that to you or anyone. If I am so horrid then lable me a troll and block me. Different stokes for different folks. I won't waste anymore of your time and please don't waste anymore of yours by spying on me or trying to get me to live my life according to your rules for me. I am more then sure you'd feel the same about my possible rules for your life, right? Robyn

Subject: Your over-reacting, Robyn From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 15:55:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You: ''If I am so horrid then lable me a troll and block me.'' Who said you were horrid? Not me. I said you were nice but naive. You're over-reacting in an emotional way and putting words in my mouth. Sorry I only label real idiots as trolls. You don't quite fit the job description. And I only block malicious disruptors. Again you don't qualify. You definitely are a decent person which is why I am bothering to sort things out with you. If I thought you were unethical and deceitful I would not be bothering to talk to you. You again: ''If I am a waste of your time then why do you spy on my posts and report back to Jim and try to tell me what to do and how to live my life. You'd save hours right there.'' Again you are twisting my words either deliberately out of passive-aggressiveness or you really are not paying attention to what I said. Nowhere did I say you were a waste of my time. I said I was not here to waste my time chatting to cult apologists as you are. You may not be wasting your time for all I know. Perhaps you don't have anything better to do than blow kisses at cultweasels. I don't spy on you. I read every single post on all the forums. I find everything about expremies fascinating including you. I reported what you said back to Jim because he cannot read what you post on LG as he is banned and you were talking about him behind his back. I'm not telling you what to do or how to live your life. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I don't care what you do here but don't expect me to keep my mouth shut if what you do here affects my credibility or purpose. I don't care that you cuddle up with cultweasels. That's fine by me except when it affects me as your defense of Quiet did. (It led to the entire Debacle.) My only beef with you so far is that you seem to be fuzzy thinking, bear grudges against Jim which none of newbies understand, attack him and then me because I agreed with him. You admit that you don't know everything that is going on (you know nothing about CAC - ask Marianne) and yet you came out of left field attacking Jim and then me because we were questioning a malicious troll. If you examine how that led to this, you will see that you were wrong to butt in but you have not yet apologised. If you simply apologised for poking your nose into something that you knew nothing about and using it as an opportunity to get in a silly dig at Jim for supposed past grievances, I would accept it and you can go back to chatting with Mili on LG without any criticism from me. Also it would help if you stopped making up stuff about Jim outing exes on LG, that would help too. Or better yet - why don't you just spell out your objections to Jim so that us newbies can understand where you're coming from. Getting in digs at him with the cultweasels on LG doesn't make you look nearly as good as you claim to be. Am I right in suspecting that a lot of your current view of me is colored by the fact I do not like your friends such as Selene, Salam, Deb, Mili et al?

Subject: Give me a break From: Jim To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:12:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Blubber blubber blubber You attacked me for nothing re that stupid troll Quiet, you never apologized, you sidled up with that completely viscious, little nutcase, Deborah, when she started slamming the forum and now you're bleating about what a good person you are, blah blah, blah ...... What a joke!

Subject: Re: Give me a break From: Robyn To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 14:59:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are an idiot! I never attacked you!!! You are so thick, hopeless. I warned someone I didn't know about opening up to you, something I'd do for anyone. I did nothing wrong so why would I apologize? I haven't sidled up to anyone you fool. What is wrong with you? You are wacked yourself! You think because you say something endlessly that it will make it true or make you believe it is true or maybe others who read you and don't know about the situation themselves? You are acting like my youngest did when she was 12, she is turning out well though so hang on, maybe there is hope for you yet!

Subject: Re: Give me a break From: Jim To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:37:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Robyn, OF COURSE you attacked me! It happened on AG where I was, once again, trying to explain to Quiet why some of us who'd bothered to try to communicate with him were of the mind that he was untrustworthy. That's when you burst in like a screaming banshee warning him not to 'open up' to me because, as you put it, I had outed many people before, was simply untrustworthy and -- now I may be wrong about this and the post, hell, the forum isn't there to check any longer -- I was simply a 'bad person' to boot. And you think that because you were saying that to Quiet, not me, you weren't attacking me? How precious. As for 'sidling up', well, Robyn, do you know what I meant by that? Perhaps not. 'Sidle' in this context means: to go or move with one side foremost especially in a furtive advance I couldn't say it any better than Pat has. Read his posts. He's completely right. THINK for a change, Robyn.

Subject: Thanks, you response to Jim tells me From: PatC To: Robyn Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 16:25:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ........everything I need to know. You definitely don't like Jim. Fine by me although I am curious about how you became so prejudiced against him. So prejudiced that you told an anonymous troll (whom you admit that you did not know) not to open up to Jim. Jim was trying to get the truth out of Quiet and you in effect told Quiet not to be honest with Jim and thereby encouraged him to continue dissembling. Telling someone you have never met before to distrust Jim and to continue deceiving him because you don't like Jim is no insignificant act. You must really hate Jim to do that. I can't understand why because I have not seen Jim say anything bad to you since I have been here. So, it must have happened a long time ago before my time. Does it have something to do with your friendship with Katie and Katie's dislike of Jim or did Jim say something nasty to you personally? Judging by how you over-reacted to and twisted the words in my post to you, I wonder if you have also misunderstood something that Jim once said. I can't understand your anitpathy to him. He is blunt-spoken, yes, but he is also sincere, honest and very conscientious. I would really like to know what caused you to hate Jim. Please explain.

Subject: Re: Robyn misunderstood From: PatC To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 20:23:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree, Marianne. She was not around when Quiet first turned up and had no idea why Jim and I were suspicious of him. But she did poke her nice nose into it and got it put slightly out of joint. No big deal - we all get humbled here occassionally. I know Robyn is nice but she is also naive. I'm sure she would not be as nice to Pat Robertson (and other ignorant fundamentalist christians who thought that her daughter was a sinner) as she is to Quiet, Catweasel and all the other cult apologists who have disrupted and spread disinformation on these forums.

Subject: Alright! I love that stuff! From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 21:49:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Far out, Dog! I was just reading up on Theravada Buddhism myself today. What a coincidence. Here's something you might be interested in. Pretty well has all the concepts in one, simple place. For beginners, I guess: IS THERAVADA BUDDHISM FOR ARAHANTSHIP ONLY? By U Silananda Although Theravada Buddhism is known more widely than before nowadays, there are still some misunderstandings concerning it. There are still people who believe and say (or rather write) that Theravada is for Arahantship only. Before we talk about this subject, we must understand the meaning of the word arahant. According to Theravada Buddhist teachings, an arahant is a person who has reached the fourth and highest stage of enlightenment. All those who have reached this stage are called arahants, worthy ones. Worthy of what? Worthy of accepting gifts from devotees, because gifts made to those persons bring abundant results. According to this definition, all those who have reached this stage, both disciples and Buddhas (and Pacceka-Buddhas also), are called arahants. There are numerous places in the Pali Canon where the Buddha is referred to as arahant, see for instance the formula of homage which Buddhists say everyday: 'Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa!'; observe also the statement in the Mahavagga of Vinaya Pitaka, 'There are now six arahants in the world', i.e., the five first disciples and the Buddha. But arahant is also used to refer to the disciples only, and it is in this sense that the word arahant is used hereafter in this article. According to Theravada teachings, there are three kinds of beings who have reached the fourth stage of enlightenment: Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas, and Arahants. Arahants are also called Savakas or Disciples; they are subdivided into Aggasavaka (the Best Disciples), Mahasavaka (the Great Disciples) and Pakatisavaka (the Ordinary Disciples). All of these beings are enlightened persons, but their quality of enlightenment differs from one another. The enlightenment of the Buddhas is the best, that of Pacceka-Buddhas is inferior to the enlightenment of the Buddhas, but is superior to the enlightenment of the Arahants, and the enlightenment of the Arahants is the lowest of them all. Buddhas can ‘save’ many beings, or rather they can help many beings ‘save’ themselves by giving them instructions, but Pacceka-Buddhas do not ‘save’ beings because they are solitary Buddhas and do not teach as a rule. The Arahants can and do ‘save’'beings, but not as many beings as Buddhas do. And the time required for the maturity of the qualities of these beings differ greatly. To become a Buddha, one has to fulfill the Paramis (necessary qualities for becoming a Buddha) for four, eight or sixteen Incalculables and 100,000 worlds cycles; but for a Pacceka-Buddha the time is only two Incalculables and 100,000 world cycles. Among the Disciples, for an Aggasavaka, the time required is one Incalculable and 100,000 world cycles, while for a Mahasavaka, it is only 100,000. But for the Pakatisavaka, it may be just one life, or a hundred lives, or a thousand lives, or more. It is important to note that once a person becomes an arahant, he will not become a Buddha in that life; and since there is no more rebirth for him, he will not become a Buddha in the future either. In Theravada Buddhism one is not forced to follow the path to Buddhahood only, but is given a choice from among the paths mentioned above. So a Theravada Buddhist can aspire for and eventually reach Buddhahood; indeed he must be determined to fulfill the Paramis for the long, long time required for the fulfillment of Buddhahood. Or if he so desires, he may aspire for Pacceka-Buddhahood, or one of the states of Arahantship and suffer in the round of rebirths for the time required for his particular choice of the path accumulating the necessary Paramis and ‘save’ as many beings as they can. So a Theravada Buddhist is free to choose what suits his willingness to go through the round of rebirths and suffering. In brief, a Theravada Buddhist can become a Buddha, or a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahant according to his choice. So Theravada Buddhism is for all three paths and not for the path to Arahantship only. Here comes another question: If a Theravada Buddhist can choose any path, why is the attainment of Arahantship so much talked about in Theravada Buddhism? It is because only very few can become Buddhas. As you know (if you have read so far, of course), an aspirant for Buddhahood has to undergo a lot of suffering for a long, long time in the round of rebirths making sacrifices no other being even dreams of; and there can be only one Buddha at a time in the whole world, so that the appearance of a Buddha is very, very rare. Therefore, for every being to aspire for Buddhahood is impractical; it would be like all native citizens of the United States trying to become a President of the United States. Moreover, the purpose of becoming a Buddha is to ‘save’ beings or ‘help beings save themselves.’ But if everybody were to become a Buddha, there would be no beings for a Buddha to ‘save’–please note that Buddhas do not need any instructions from anybody–and so the original purpose would not be served. On the contrary, to become an Arahant is very practical, and millions of beings attained Arahantship during the time of a Buddha. That is why, in Theravada Buddhism, beings are encouraged to try to become Arahants which is practical rather than to become Buddhas which is not so. But as stated before, beings are given freedom to follow the path of their choice in their endeavor for attainment of enlightenment. After all, what is important for all beings is to get free from suffering in the round of rebirths no matter which path they choose. Still another question: Are there Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood? We are glad to answer in the affirmative. But since not many of them are on record, we cannot say how many. At least there was a king in Myanmar during the Pagan Period who built a pagoda and dedicated it to the Dispensation of the Buddha. In that pagoda he left an inscription where he clearly declared his aspiration for Buddhahood; and almost all kings of ancient Myanmar considered themselves to be aspirants for Buddhahood. There are also authors of religious books, mostly monks, who mentioned their aspiration for Buddhahood at the end of their books. So, we can say that there are not a few Theravada Buddhists who aspire for Buddhahood. Actually, it seems a little complicated. But, hell, that doesn't mean I don't love it! :)

Subject: I wanna be a Buddha!!! From: Dermot To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:21:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In brief, a Theravada Buddhist can become a Buddha, or a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahant according to his choice. No second or third best for me thanks..... Do you think in 2 or 3 thousand years time (a few thou years is always good for the resume) 'Dermotism' will be a major world religion? Well, if i start inventing some complicated theories and various paths to follow but also offer some simple med techniques too, then it should be a synch. Anyone here want to be a part of my Sangha? I warn you now though I'm a complete spiritual bullshitter.That's your last warning! From now on I just talk the business...... LIFE, DEATH AND PERFECT ATTAINMENT BY LORD DERMOT (2000 AD) Dear struggling human souls......especially those with Visa/MC/Amex. ............................................... Just goofing.....no offence to the spirtitually inclined:)

Subject: It's a good night for it ,D..! From: AV To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:03:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TONIGHT: The full moon, Vaisaiki, festival of Lord B's birth and enlightenment, you synchronous little thing! :)

Subject: I know, I know... From: Dermot To: AV Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:27:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Once you reach my level of attainment things just automatically fall in place....It's like the Grace of the Universe just flows through me....no more cycles of birth and death or any of that boring shit.... ...wanna get involved AV? (Repeat: all major credit cards accepted) :)

Subject: Re: I know, I know... From: AV To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 14:37:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know, I really FEEEL how you are just come from, like, that place, and it's like, so amazing that we all have this incredible opportunity to just , like, well, understand means, like , to stand under, geddit?, so, like, that bliss can just flow into my empty cup, because , its like, that MIND has just keeps taking us all away from that simplicity, and If we all just let go, yeah! that's it!! just really let go of all that STUFF, then it's like, that holy vibration which has like ,created this whole universe, and God too!!!, because it's like is says in the Gita....(((((((((KKKKRRRRUUUNNNCCCHHHHHH)))))))..... tick .. tock .. tick .. tock .. tick...........

Subject: Dermotism? Is that a skin disease? :) [nt] From: JHB To: Dermot Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:59:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Used to be..I've REVISED it now:) [nt] From: Dermot To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:14:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This was in response to your earlier post From: Dep To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:19:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I said in my earlier post, this guy Silananda is full of shit and you are a coward because you won't do The Landmark Forum. Too bad you are too yella to take the The Landmark Forum. Now that's Theravada Buddhism for beginners. No, you'd rather spend your time hanging out on a beach in Costa Rica than exploring human consciousness. Too bad! You rather stay down in one little corner of life where you can play it safe.

Subject: Us Bbuddhas don't need Landmark Forums, Dep :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:27:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Why I won't take Landmark Forum seriously From: Jim To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1) It won't explain in clear terms what it offers. 2) It won't explain in clear terms how it works. 3) It won't explain in clear terms how it has the authority to teach what it supposedly offers. 4) The test of success is so nebulous it just cries out for some test to screen out suggestibility (Did you get the big hit? Did you? Did you really??). Wake up, Dog.

Subject: Jim, did you know that Werner knew... From: la-ex To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:56:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the secret to the universe? A friend of mine took EST, back in the early 70's, when Werner Erhard was teaching the trainings by himself. After an excruciating 4 day training in which my friend had to endure: 1)staring at a 50 foot photo of Werner in front of the stage all weekend long... 2)no bathroom breaks.. 3)being called an 'asshole' all weekend long... He was told that at the end of the training, that Werner himself would tell everyone the secret 'meaning of life'... Of course, everyone waited anxiously until the final moment... At the end, Werner proceded to go up to each individual participant in the auditorium and whisper 'the secret meaning to life' in each persons ear. The secret was: THERE IS NO SECRET! And that was it.....they 'go it'....

Subject: The Landmark Forum, a Testimony... From: Cynthia To: la-ex Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 10:33:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Landmark Forum is another cult. It's listed on the Rick Ross website (link above). Here's an interesting story from a woman who attended. There's lot's of information on the Ross site about EST and Landmark. I left after the second day www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark37.html

Subject: Cynthis, someone always walks out From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:47:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: . . . but 70% of participants say it was one of the most valuable experiences of their lives. Not bad for $350!

Subject: Re: Cynthis, someone always walks out From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 09:38:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, It's $350 for the first round. Then if you want to go further it costs more and more and more. If you don't 'get it' the first time you can pay another $350 and do the same thing over. I don't believe that mass or large group therapies of this type are healthy for anyone. I read a lot about these types of enterprises and my first and last response and impulse is 'run away as fast as you can.' There's no panacea to life's problems, Dep, whether or not you pay for it in cash. Anyone who tries to tell you they can instantly fix you, repair you, ask for 'confessions,' restrain you through fear, keep you for hours in a room with little or few breaks, tries to reframe your thinking processes with loaded language is a cult and has ulterior motives. That's not just my opinion but the also the opinion of many experts on cults after examining the effects of mass therapy groups. Why do you need someone else to validate the Landmark Forum for you? This organization has it's roots in EST. I can't condone it. I reject it outright. And some of those who left before the entire program's end have reported serious detrimental emotional and mental side effects. My stomach tightens just thinking about the training (it wasn't Landmark) I went through several years ago. It was a horrible experience and I didn't walk out. The only reason I didn't walk out is because I was afraid to because it was sponsored by my new employer at the time. I don't know what you are searching for Dep, but don't lay it on me. My red flags are waving high on this one and no thank you. If you are having difficulty leaving the Maharajism cult, why look to another cult? Do you really believe you need to be repaired by strangers? That $350 would be better spent, IMO, by finding a reputable, licensed cult exit counselor, Dep, because you do sound confused and unable to accept your life outside of the Maharaji cult. I'm sorry if I sound so blunt, but please don't bring this shit here as if it is innocent and harmless because it's not. I wish you well in your life, Dep, but I think you're still searching for something that doesn't exist. My only recommendation for you is to look at EPO, click on links and go the the reFocus website. There are many resources to help you understand why these groups are dangerous for your health, as well as resources for you to understand the dynamics of leaving a cult. You might want to consider reading Snapping by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. It's an eye opener. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964765004/ref%3Dase%5Frickross/104-4564986-6107114 Cynthia

Subject: To Cynthia. From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:20:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (((((((( SHIVER!!!! ))))))) I was invited to one of these....instinct smelled a rat ...Love to U AV

Subject: To AV...Good for you... From: Cynthia To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SHIVER is right! Good for you and your ''red flags!'' Love, Cynth

Subject: Stonor, I've been a Buddhist for about 7 years! [nt] From: Dep To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 22:22:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Prem Rrawat gets benefit of the doubt From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 20:41:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But not a 5 star rating:) I think this persons site has been put up here before....he keeps it's updated as Maharaji has been updated to Prem Rawat. Anyway, if you're searching for a new guru to deliver you from darkness to light...take your pick:) Divine Bullshitters www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsD.htm

Subject: Fantastic - check out this link! From: Disculta To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 21:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Dermot mate! This provided me with an hour of cracking up in front of my computer. I'm busy, but I keep clicking on more and more gurus... checkitout people

Subject: So many gurus, so little time. From: Richard To: Disculta Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:26:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Way guru-vy arti on the Sat Pal site. It's got that Goo-Goo Ju-Ju working, baby. Don't forget the words of Shri Postie: Just let Bhagwans be Bhagwans! and Any Pal of yours is a Pal of mine! Ananda Kanda Ki Jai! www.manavdharam.org/index.html

Subject: Re: So many gurus, so little time. From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just let Bhagwans be Bhagwans! very funny! new song for ex-es; 'I DID IT MAYA WAY' LOL, luvvit!! and as for swinging arti trays, remember, shri hans are better than one! :-)

Subject: Jeeeeezus Richard! From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:44:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a shock! I click on your link and this loud arti music appears in my room! Not being an MP3 person I have actually never heard music come out of my computer before. I almost fell to the floor in pranam, I was so surprised!

Subject: Re: Jeeeeezus Richard! From: Mahatma Coat To: Disculta Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:20:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooh, my dear Disculta Ji, you are be having the - how you say in West - ecstasy flashback. The door is always open back to the Satguru. It makes mahatma ji so totally blissing out to hear you are wanting to do pranam to Lotus Feet of Living Lord. Arti is arti and just a pretty song unless it is been singing to Balyogeshwar Sant Ji Maharaj. Oooops! My lovely assistant has been clicking my mouse to help me hear this arti and I am shocked to see imposter fake guru who pretends he is son of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj. Wait til I tell Sant Ji - he will just be freaking out. We all know there is only one Living Perfect Master and it isn't Sat Pal or this Jeeeezus Richard person either. Bhole shri satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!! Mahatma Coat

Subject: I can't wait to follow his kid From: Jim To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:56:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just looking at these guys you know they're thinking 'Boy, did I ever luck out!' www.manavdharam.org/news/photo_gallery/vaisakhi_2002/pages/vaisakhi_18.html

Subject: Dearest Morolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Bai Ji To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 18:00:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must admit that when I first saw you , you were amongst one of the greatest attractions to my young mind. You had such a beautiful definition of M and I had such a Longing in my young life to persue all of the noble ideals that he portrayed. You were the epitomie of class and devotion and I respected you accordingly. Since my dissolution with all of this I would Dearly love to hear you input, as it was You who impressed me most with your devotion and integrity. I realise you are under a huge pressure to remain silent and I in no way wish to jeopardise you. Having said that please find a way to save us all from the hell thaT we now all endure , due to the "Code of silence"

Subject: Re: Dearest Marolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Bai Ji To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 16:06:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OOps, Sorry, don't know what happened to the rest of my post!

Subject: Re: Dearest Marolyn aka ( Durga Ji) From: Vicki To: Bai Ji Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 20:30:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, can you repost your thoughts? I was disappointed because this definitely struck a cord with me. I couldn't relate to the whole druggy early premie stage, or the Indian trip, but somehow Marolyn,as Durga Ji, made it seem okay. She glamorized Indian fashion and mannerisms, she brought chic to her Western wardrobe in comparison to the funkiness of the early seventies. I mean, it was an expensive class act the whole way. Her sincerity and radiance made him look good. She was like the moon reflecting the sun, as he alluded to many times about master and devotee. The stage act was great, it lent creadence to the whole circus. Face it, she and the kids made him look real good, but they always credited him, always had that deferring body language.

Subject: Excellent observation, Vicki From: PatC To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 01:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And I agree - I would like to hear the rest of Bai Ji's train of thought. How about it Bai Ji? What went wrong with your post was that you typed some of it into the ''Link Name'' field by mistake.

Subject: Re: Excellent observation, Vicki From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:07:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first was introduced to M&K he was already married. The first movie I saw was the (can't remember the title) one made of their wedding, running on the beach, and holding Premlata. All the Hartford premies loaded up into cars and drove down to the New Haven Community who had the film. They played it over and over and over.... That was a very big attraction to me inasmuch as I saw him as a more 'normal' person being married and all. I also thought that Marolyn had much more class than Maharaji. I frequently wonder what she really feels now, so many years later, so much has happened since they married. Many gopi's were so envious of Marolyn's position, married to the Lord. I know one premie (my sister) who was excessively jealous and could never understand 'why her and not me.' My sister is very beautiful, tall and blonde. Whenever I talk to her now I try to gently say that she's lucky it wasn't her who ''got'' to marry HIM.

Subject: The Wedding From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 12:16:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a major 'test' for me. I couldn't believe that a guru could get married,& particularly hated the ultra low rent ruffled shirt he wore with his dinner suit.I guess I put it all down to a lila beyond my understanding,& a lesson in not being so snobbish...something like that. I did see the incongruity of myself(celibate)watching a film of the incarnation running along a beach,with his wife's tits bouncing in slo-mo,but dismissed it as mind. The hook was,& always has been,the'experience which only he can give'.Everything he has ever done to suit himself(that's everything),may make him superficially more attractive to a different group of people than the saps previously ensnared,but the bottom line is now as ever. ME ME ME ...love me....YOU YOU YOU...fuck you. As for Marolyn,I don't suppose she feels too much beyond the deep pile carpet beneath her feet.

Subject: I still have the movie From: Vicki To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 13:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: somewhere or another. The case cracked and I never did get around to having it put in another one, but the footage is still clear.

Subject: that movie is a treasure From: Susan To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:09:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Save it, if there is any way to get a copy to Jim or to an ex who would know how to make it into something we could clip here a play a clip. That movie deeply entrenched me too. The new baby, see her Premlata. Yes, at least back then the wife and kids outshown him like a thousand suns. The cult might have shiveled without them.

Subject: Make a video! From: Jim To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 19:52:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, I need to see that slow motion stuff again. Got to work something out my system. :)

Subject: Re: Make a video! From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:02:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, what the hell was the name of that thing? It's title escapes me at the moment. Preserving on video would be good.

Subject: was that it (nt) From: 'Family of Love' To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 20:13:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Knowledge Resource Center From: Marshall To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:54:08 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi Everyone, Here is something I came across on my mom's computer that I thought might be of interest. Note all the increased opportunities for 'participation', especially financial participation. As always, a big push for money, but... 'knowledge is free!' and 'Maharaji never asks for money!' hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Knowledge Resource Center Mailing address: 11664 National Blvd., Suite 325 Los Angeles, CA 90064 Many of you requested that we send a summary of what was covered on the conference calls we had with Ira Woods as guest speaker, on March 1 and March 4, 2002. These are the topics that were covered and a brief summary of the information given: Latest Local Developments City Contact Eve Hollander spoke about the fact that since Elan Vital downsized, we were no longer connected with them financially as in the past, and had to organize in some way for legal and financial purposes. We were advised to form an Unincorporated Association and the local Westside team chose the name Knowledge Resource Center, which is now legally our operating name. This enabled us to get an IRS Social Security number and a bank account under this name. This change also meant that local expenses for continuing to provide local events have been greatly increased. In addition to the cost of renting the room at the hotel for the weekly satellite broadcasts, some of these other additional expenses are: 1) Liability Insurance that had to be purchased (to protect us in case a volunteer or guest at an event should become injured and sue us) at a cost of $900.00 per year. which was purchased through the generous loan of a team member, whom we pay-back monthly; 2) Paying all mailing and other communication expenses; 3) Paying a share monthly for area-wide expenses to maintain the phone line and storage of equipment used at large events. The hope was expressed that we could even increase the number of aspirant and introductory events we offer, and that support for this was needed both financially and in volunteering time. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Propagation-related Activities in the Westside Area Eduardo Guinzburg, who is our Aspirant Contact in this area spoke about how the Aspirant and Introductory events are offered to provide information and help Aspirants and those preparing for Knowledge grow in their experience. He then mentioned that from time to time we also organize Practice Sessions for those who have recently received Knowledge. Eduardo presented the following statistics about how many people received Knowledge specifically from this area: From 1997-1999, a total of 12 people; in 2000, 6 people; and in 2001, 14 people. As far as attendance goes, we were excited to learn that over the last 12 months 71 people were introduced and 67 interested people attended our local video and satellite events. Therefore, propagation is definitely on the rise on the Westside. Currently, there are 25 Aspirants in this area alone, and the hope was also expressed that we would be able to offer more events for them and for those whom we would introduce to Maharaji’s message, so that eventually more and more people could get ready for receiving the gift of Knowledge. Ira Woods Ira Woods then spoke, expressing that he knew there were a lot of new things happening “behind the scenes” and although he hasn’t heard about it yet, he has all the information he needs at this time which is that Maharaji has a passion to do something and we can watch it unfold. He expressed that Knowledge is not an institution, not an organization, but has Maharaji, who understands it, can impart it, and can help anyone to connect to it. Ira expressed that we all need to recognize that Maharaji does not need to offer Knowledge at all – has no contract to do this – but does it because he wants to. And, although Maharaji’s way may change from moment-to-moment, the techniques of Knowledge have not changed, nor has the fact that this experience is between each individual person and Maharaji. Opportunities for Local Participation Scott Polenz, who is a member of the Knowledge Resource Center team, then spoke about local participation. He expressed that there were numerous opportunities now for people to volunteer and support events on the local level. He spoke about the increased need for financial support now that we are independent, and could be made: 1) Directly at the satellite or special events by cash, check, or money order; 2) By mailing checks or money orders to the Knowledge Resource Center address (above); 3) and by arranging for credit card or automatic withdrawal payments. He then spoke about participation and the fact that there is an increased need for volunteers now. He stressed that the time anyone would want to offer can be as little or as much as they are able to offer and that some can be done from home, such helping maintain our mailing list database and other computer-related projects. Scott then extended a warm welcome to anyone who would like to participate with us in being able to offer more special events. For more information on financial and/or participation opportunities, you’re welcome to contact Eve Hollander at 818-341-6379. Upcoming Events Scott mentioned two local area events: Aspirant Event with Sherry Weinstein – March 6, 2002 Update: At this event. 35 attended, including 5 Aspirants and 3 interested people. Introductory Program with a Guest Speaker -- March 16, 2002 – 7:00 p.m. Scherr Forum Theatre, 2100 Thousand Oaks Blvd. / Thousand Oaks To Help Financially Support The Knowledge Resource Center Please mail check or money order to KNOWLEDGE RESOURCE CENTER mailing address: 11664 NATIONAL BLVD. / SUITE 325 LOS ANGELES, CA 90064 Your support is greatly appreciated

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What the hell are they Insuring against, $900 buys a lot of cover - or do the premiums include provision for being sued for psychological harm ?

Subject: $900 buys a lot of cover From: AV To: Blondie Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:26:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: really! I had to get PLI one time, it was about 25 bucks on top of my norm. and covered up to 2 mill! S'funny, the money thing never really got to me personally, but as I experienced progressive difficulties with practice / relating etc over the last 10 years, I started to notice that the ONLY communication I ever got from EV related to money: tax free donations blah blah blah.. nothing about help / support / integration.....just money money money. weird that I never really noticed it in that way before...I always assumed they were desperate and strapped for cash... but you would have thought once in a while the topic would change to: 'if any of you folks out there are having a tough time, we are organising a relaxed and informal retreat with..........to give you an opportunity to open up and let us know how we can help with your progress in K'.....or some such. I guess it was always assumed that an endless one way diet of vids and the occaisional program (soo sorry, event!)should have been all we needed. there more distance I allow myself to look at this whole trip, the more totally bizarre it appears, but whatever meditation was supposed to do for me thru' all those years, I do feel a great sense of natural peace coming back into my life, and the awareness of the gentle energy within the breath comes as a pleasant and welcome guest,rather than an uptight and forced discipline that gave me most days a headache.

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Cynthia To: Blondie Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:00:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just thinking that $900.00 doesn't by a lot of coverage at all. It sounds pretty inexpensive to say the least. And I am an former insurance woman. I would doubt that the Knowledge Resource Center has reported sexual or psychological or spiritual abuse to be included as part of their liability coverage. ;) Ummmm...it is a cult, after all. Cynthia

Subject: Re: Knowledge Resource Center From: Blondie (got that wrong then) To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:05:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I stand corrected. Was going by UK rates, obviously a different world.

Subject: responsibility From: david prothero To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:27:32 (PDT) Email Address: david.prothero@virgin.net Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead!

Subject: I suppose... From: AJW To: david prothero Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 03:56:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead! --- Hi, Do you think if somebody gets robbed on the street it is their fault for not avoidng the mugger? Do you think that victims of crime are all responsible for their condition, and that the criminals are completely blameless? Get real pal. If someone goes around cheating, lying and conning people, the person committing these acts should take some of the blame, not just the victims. Anth, victim of society.

Subject: Re: responsibility From: AV To: david prothero Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:43:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, but a pilot under instruction has to trust that the flying instructors have impeccable credentials....everything has to be done by the book, then there are no mistakes, no need for blame, and people qualify as safe and reliable pilots. I am suprised that ,as a pilot,your comments are so short sighted....you know where your trust has to be before you're allowed to go solo.

Subject: Re: responsibility From: Bolly Shri To: david prothero Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 06:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a pilot? I thought you were a dentist. A lot of people going into DLM were less self assured than you were then or ever. In the time I knew you self doubt was never a major feature of your take on life. Thinking about it I'm surprised you were ever sucked into it at all. I'm writing this on the assumption that you are Dave the dentist formerly of Camden Town and Balham. Have a good day

Subject: A flying dentist? - not NT From: PatC To: Bolly Shri Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:37:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please, Bolli, you are making it very hard for me to stop posting. :P

Subject: A flying dentist? just filling in! From: AV To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 12:05:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: - or his crowning achievement? From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 04:15:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which for some dotty reason reminds me of these famous non-compliments: 'your teeth are like stars - they come out at night' 'when I look into your eyes, time seems to stand still' (or rather: 'you've got a face that would stop a clock') ;) and one more groaner: - Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused his dentist's Novocain during root canal work? He wanted to transcend dental medication.

Subject: Big Groan.... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 11:46:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and a laugh!

Subject: Re: an amalgam of both? From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 07:59:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To cap it all ... From: cq To: AV Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:59:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A colleague at work is getting married soon, so I sent him these timely reminders: REMEMBER: A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband. A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife. Men are like fine wine. They start out as grapes. It's a woman's job to stomp on them and then keep them in the dark until they mature. Then hopefully they'll turn out to be something a woman would like to have dinner with. Any married man should forget his mistakes. There's no point in two people remembering the same thing. Q. What is the difference between men & women? A. A woman wants one man to satisfy her every need. But a man wants every woman to satisfy his one need!

Subject: Re: Wisdom, by gum! From: AV To: cq Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 14:46:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: have you read 'Men stand in Bars, while Women Shop in Tescos' ?, by the same author of the new anti- cheap GM meat campaign; 'a shilling for ham that blinds you'

Subject: A bridge to nowhere! From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 08:51:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You look down in the mouth so brace yourself for this one, I can't retain myself . . . It's sort of kind of like That Special Filling you know?

Subject: Re: A bridge to nowhere! From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 10:50:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how incisive! better buckle up!

Subject: Re: A bridge to nowhere! From: Richard To: AV Date Posted: Fri, May 31, 2002 at 18:13:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Biting humor like yours is as scarce as hen's teeth. You definitely know the drill and have the nerve to prove your wisdom. In fact, you deserve a placque!

Subject: denture just luvvit! (nt) From: AV To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 10:44:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I can't believe I read that :C) [nt] From: Catpee To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:14:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: above not NT :C) [nt] From: PatC To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 11:20:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Of course it's all rubbish From: Sir Dave To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 20:27:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but you've pretty much admitted in your post that Maharaji is a trickster. .. Dave

Subject: You make no sense... From: Cynthia To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:55:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could pick apart every sentence in your post but I won't waste my time on you.

Subject: Are you the Lord's co-pilot? (nt) From: Inside Edition To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What an idiot you are From: Marshall To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I feel sorry for your family, if you have one. Your philosophy(?) makes me ill. I don't understand people like you, thank god. Why do some people insist on blaming the victim?

Subject: Pilot culture doesn't impress me. From: Bryn To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:17:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry David, Taxi driver, stripper, social worker.. fine. But not another cocky pilot please. I mean why do they always have to work it into the conversation. Congratulations on your occupation. Now what about your state of mind? Love Bryn

Subject: Alert! Very scary attitude! From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:52:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's an afterthought. Our esteemed pilot friend says ; 'whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame' Of course the Lion is to blame for the Gazelles death. If Gazelles had the chance, the first thing they'd do is punish that rotten old Lion for taking advantage of their naive little babies. Also can you think of any society on earth where fraudsters are NOT brought to justice because their abusive behaviour is considered natural and therefore tolerable? Can you see how your metaphor, which clearly casts Maharaji as the Lion -the fraudster as far as the Gazelles are concerned - does not have any healthy relevance whatsoever within the society in which we live other than to promote a very uncivilised, retrograde ideal, where the the strong prey on the weak? Is that the staus quo which you would like to prevail? Do you think it's OK to take advantage of others weakeness? Do you practice this yourself?

Subject: Re: responsibility From: Pat W To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is all rubbish-whether or not maharaji is a trickster,we are responsible for our own lives,and to blame a fraudster for our own misjudgment is not acknowledging the real cause of our condition-the gazelle that isnt wary enough gets eaten,and if we have been eaten, it is not the lion that is to blame-the whole web site is an exercise in blaming something other than ourselves for our own lack of discernment. As a pilot,I know that my mistakes are mine alone-any other attitude makes me at best a victim, and at worst,dead! Is your pilot training really so incomplete as to leave you with such a myopic viewpoint? If someone launches a missile at your 'plane are you trying to tell me that you'd not stand a better chance if you'd been warned that there was a missile toting maniac waiting for you beneath your flightpath? If your 7 yr old daughter was raped by someone would you have said that her lack of discernment made the rapist innocent? Of course not. If you were robbed would you just throw up your hands and say -'I should have been more wary 'or would you take the robber to court so as you could see the likes of him removed from society and so that you could get your goods back? Anyway the simple mistake you are making is that we're not denying our lack of discernment for falling prey to anything. Blame also means 'to find fault with someone' so I don't see that because one finds fault with Maharaji that inherently means that one is denying one's own former naievety. They are two separate things. The fact is that any sane person will agree that Maharaji has SOME responsibility for his actions and since he puts himself in a position of trust and so he's fair game for those who feel he abused their trust. Care to defend your comments further because I think I just wiped the floor with your logic and you're looking like one dumb pilot. Pat W

Subject: A simple question for you Dave... From: Whoa, Dave To: david prothero Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 11:36:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours?

Subject: Re: A simple question for you Dave... From: Moll of Mole To: Whoa, Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you are flying your plane, and you listen to the flight control tower implicitly (I am assuming that at times, they know more than you do about how and when and where to land your plane,and that in your relationship to them as a pilot, you need to trust them...) and they give you faulty advice, but you follow it because you trust them,and the plane crashes because you lisened to their faulty advice..... Who's fault was it? Yours? --- In his gurunesses world if something goes wrong it is your fault no matter what happens and no matter what you are told. It is truly a sick world.Have you EVER sat in front of his largeness and heard him say 'It was my fault that this did not go the way I wanted it to', no no no, it is always the coordinators or the instructors or someother poor shmuck. Fuck him and his self-righteous arrogance. Moll

Subject: To Chris Bray From: Pat W To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 06:33:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Chris, I read your posts down below and was impressed by your words how crucially important a part this forum and EPO has played in exposing possibly one of the worst examples of abuse that has come to light so far within the organisation. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that : What's truly 'shocking' is that a meditation which was lauded to be the Knowledge of all Knowledges, to give lofty transcendence over mere human desire was, and still is, powerless to inhibit the dreary lust, and perversion, of its most favoured practitioners. It is absolutely clear to me that your daughters request to be excluded from further discussions is rightly to be honoured. However I just wanted to add my voice to those others who have expressed that it is plainly of considerable importance and 'an appropriate agenda' for EPO to continue to offer the other victims a public voice and provide some sort of public warning notice. I totally agree with Jim that EPO should put as much detail as possible about the child abuse incidents that were perpetrated by Jagdeo whilst carefully changing names where appropriate. I would have thought this would be an acceptable course of action to you and your family who must realise more than anyone that the matter is not truly closed until a) all the victims have had their say and b) Maharaji and premies stop saying one thing whilst they are doing another. You add: Think also of the mileage this forum has had out of this issue. It has been one of the spearheads, as I understand it, of the ex-premies' attack on Maharaji. I understand there is a feeling of disappointment, even, apparently, bitterness, that one of those sharpest of spearheads has been neutralised. But this is only the way it seems. The spear has done it's work. If you are willing to acknowledge it, the wound is there for all to see. The wound in the side of Maharaji's orgnisation is that statement on their website asking for anyone with a complaint regarding sexual abuse or harassment to step forward. Yes, you have yourselves to thank for that. But equally you have to thank Abi. She fought for that. I was there. And, and you might not like this, you also have to thank genuinely concerned and sincere premies within Elan Vital. That statement on their website is a major step forward, for Elan Vital and for ex-premies both. Why? Because on the one side it's an admission of fallibility and on the other it's, at long last, an avenue for righting wrongs. And that's major, isn't it? That spear, believe me, well and truly found it's mark. What do we want to do, go and pick it up and throw it again? And aain? And again? Well, I think you must appreciate that Elan Vital are not necessarily going to be the first port of call for Jagdeo's other victims who seek assistance, despite EV's kind web offer. Therefore, yes, I see a real reason why EPO should pick up whatever spears it has in it's arsenal and continue to throw them, as you put it, whilst there is still dysfunction and denial going on in the name of Truth and the abuse goes on. As I mentioned down below, whilst a lot premies might acknowledge that Jagdeo did abuse kids, they apparently are largely very unaware of the extent - and despite EV's webnote many still just see it as a one off case that has no bad reflection on Maharaji or Knowledge. There's a lot of denial I sense about this matter - Especially, I think you will agree, regarding whether Maharaji had any responsibility. And since we are both apparently agreed that it is 'truly shocking' that people who are trusted as 'Teachers of Truth' like Jagdeo (and I might add - Maharaji himself) can abuse their position, has it not occurred to you that this kind of thing may still be going on? I would say that it is very likely since one of the hallmarks of premies - who widely believe that their Master himself is beyond 'normal morals and ethics' - is a huge disparity between their lofty talk and 'experience' and their everyday actions. Premies follow their Masters example and feel little or no responsibility towards the world around them and so suffer little conscience about taking all it has to offer but giving nothing back. It depends if you have an agenda, I suppose. I don't seem to have one. I haven't reached a point of anger yet. Speaking for myself, I absolutely have an agenda. Anger has played a part for sure, but also there is a huge issue of conscience, and a sense that it is simply doing 'the right thing' to confront the wrong that has festered within the Cult for so long - head on. Also if anyone can talk about the pitfalls of being a premie we can...We did it. I would go so far as to say that I, who again like you, walked the walk, practiced the Knowledge, bought the doctrine, surrendered my life from the tender age of 17, feel that I have a public duty to put aside my fear and reticence, and to share my experiences and realisations - within an open discussion if possible - so that others do not fall into the same trap as I did and waste a large part of their lives. So we, who were there have a social responsibility. If we don't feel it then we are not fully integrated social human-beings yet. At 45 with 2 small children I at last am realising that I can play a part towards the healthy evolution of my fellow man. Ex-premies are perfectly qualified to criticise Maharaji and try to make him see the Light! Further more, it is very satisfying to find a way to resurrect some true value from our largely highjacked past (that served to benefit Maharaji much more than us). She does not want to feel there'll be this kind of boiling furore ever behind her. For at least one very good reason. It reminds her of Jagdeo. Yes, that's one good reason I know. But does she want to deny the past? That is not the way forward for her or any of us surely? Like I said, she doesn't have to pay attention to the boiling furore that IS and ALWAYS WILL BE behind her as long as she has her memory, but she surely has to come to terms with it and move on. That is what we are all trying to do here. Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned. So whilst I am in full sympathy with your family I would urge you not to be so keen to bury the past that you concern yourselves overly with others need to carry on talking about it! Rest assured JHB and all of us here will be absolutely prudent to do the right thing. Feelings are probably running a little high at the moment on all sides but I am confident that good will prevail.

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray From: Chris Bray To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 23:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Pat and thanks to everyone who responded, including, I think it was someone called Bill, who saw straight through to my essence. He called me an idiot. So thaks for that and thanks for being here. Just to reassure you all, though, that neither Abi nor I have any wish to bury the past. Elan Vital and Maharaji's agenda but not mine. Please, please, carry on talking about it (but without naming Abi!) Because I know it has a domino effect. Abi read Susan Haupt's post and found the courage to come forward. And now someone I know, because Abi did it, has likewise found the courage and already contacted Elan Vital regarding her own sexual abuse. Yes, I am still processing things, and expect to be doing so for a long time to come. Just to set the record straight, Jim S., the fact is, I never posted before this last week, about my meeting with Maharaji or anything else. So I never said I absolved him from all blame. Nor did I say I was ready to start over with a clean slate. I guess someone else must have posted their impressions of what I might have thought. (Or I suddenly thought, posted in my name. Is that possible? If you could find reference to 'my' posting I'd be very interested. But absolving Maharaji from all blame, how could I? Nor do I think he was as ignorant of this issue as he makes out. In fact I heard the other day that he knew many years before, possibly as early as the 70s because someone heard him discussing it. That's another reason why the Jagdeo issue should not fade. Maybe that witness will one day become an ex-premie, or even now have the guts to say what he knows. As for Jagdeo ever been found, I doubt it. It's in Maharaji's interest for him to remain lost. Who knows what Jagdeo might have on Maharaji. Plus Jagdeo's existence gives the lie to Knowledge. He's living proof that, very far from flying above the 'jungle' of the world, in Maharaji's analogy, both of them are in fact down there totally immersed. So thanks again for all you said and recommended. Cheers, Chris

Subject: My apology From: Tonette To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Wed, May 29, 2002 at 08:38:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have no idea if you're still reading here. I don't know if you have read what I wrote to you in the thread you started down below. If you haven't, don't! I am frustrated and impatient while I wait for some justice, any justice, to come to Maharaji and all those associated with him who have perpetuated crimes. I watch while this saga continues. Label me an angry ex-premie. Whatever. But it is that anger that I directed to you in a most unfair way. I said some insensitive, unfair and misdirected words to you. Well, I'm eating those words now. I feel pretty awful about what I wrote to you. I am sorry. Tonette

Subject: Chris-this is what I remember.. From: Jim S. To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 09:02:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember a post on EPO, in which you talked about meeting with maharaji in amaroo, and he was crying, as he talked to you as one father to another....you were touched by it, and seemed to be convinced that it was sincere... If you didn't post it, it might have been Abi, posting it soon after it happened...I'm sure it was not an 'imposter' posting....I think it was Abi, making refrence to your meeting with m... Best wishes..... Jim S.

Subject: Chris, I just knew you were a great guy From: PatC To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 02:07:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry about bill (with a small b - yes, don't ask) as he may have had his tits in a tangle that day. :P You said: ''And now someone I know, because Abi did it, has likewise found the courage and already contacted Elan Vital regarding her own sexual abuse.'' Please advise this friend of yours to hire a decent lawyer and file a police report before dealing with EV and the likes of Valerio Pascotto. I'm sure you know what I mean. You again: ''Just to set the record straight, Jim S., the fact is, I never posted before this last week, about my meeting with Maharaji or anything else. So I never said I absolved him from all blame. Nor did I say I was ready to start over with a clean slate. I guess someone else must have posted their impressions of what I might have thought. (Or I suddenly thought, posted in my name. Is that possible? If you could find reference to 'my' posting I'd be very interested.'' Jim S, like bill made a mistaken observation. Perhaps he is thinking about Abi's post about your meeting with Rev Rawat. BTW, both bill and Jim S are good guys too and they do have real names and use them here (unlike the anonymous Australian cult apologists, CW and DR, who used to pop in to sneer an snipe - well you missed them. If you had posted last week before they were blocked, they would have been all over you like cockroaches with supposed dirt like they did with John McGregor.) You again: ''In fact I heard the other day that he (Rawat) knew many years before, possibly as early as the 70s because someone heard him discussing it. That's another reason why the Jagdeo issue should not fade.'' Very interesting indeed. You added: ''As for Jagdeo ever been found, I doubt it. It's in Maharaji's interest for him to remain lost. Who knows what Jagdeo might have on Maharaji. Plus Jagdeo's existence gives the lie to Knowledge. He's living proof that, very far from flying above the 'jungle' of the world, in Maharaji's analogy, both of them are in fact down there totally immersed. Very true. Jagdeo was in on the scam from the get-go. You're just brilliant, Chris. Thanks tons.

Subject: To Dermot From: Chris Bray To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 00:09:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dermot, I would frankly be distressed if anything I ever said stopped you posting about Jagdeo or in any way hindered your right to free speech. As for Abi, it's her name that she wants left out of things. Cheers, Chris

Subject: ***LET'S DROP THE NAMES RIGHT NOW**** From: Jim To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 15:54:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps all future references could be to A.? And you, my friend, my want to post as Chris B. or C.B. or something like that, no?

Subject: I have been Lolling From: Loaf To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, May 28, 2002 at 01:13:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has been ridiculous to note how often XXX's name has been posted (I prefer xxx)since requesting anonymity and privacy. JHB should simply remove the name from EPO, but NOT the story - and simularly it would be nice if someone went through the forum archives (and this one) and simply replaced the name with A. or X or whatever. I wholeheartedly agree with Jim and posted to this effect days ago. The Danger in removing whole posts/stories is that the impact of X's tale is buried... exactly what would make Jagdeo's life easier (and M's). BTW Jim can you tell us any more (privately to me by email if needs must) about who received a financial settlement from EV/TPRF and on what terms ?

Subject: Re: To Dermot From: Dermot To: Chris Bray Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 08:17:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's what I figured your position was Chris....glad you've made it clear. Cheers Dermot

Subject: Thanks for saying that, Patrick From: Lesley To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 12:50:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am somewhat hesitant to add my voice because I am not personally involved in anything to do with Jagdeo or his victims and their families, but I am an ex premie. In particular, thanks for saying this: 'Her abuse was much a much worse case than most, but we all feel grossly abused too and we, unlike her, have not once had the reassurance or 'closure' of any kind of acknowledgement from either Maharaji or Elan Vital. In fact quite the opposite - we have been at best ignored and at worst, demonised and scorned.' I find it interesting to note that victims of sexual abuse through the Anglican and Catholic churches are now coming forward and decrying the tactic of paying money in exchange for their silence. It seems money is good, but if it comes at the expense of their voice, it is not enough, not enough for peace. I will admit, I credited Rawat with more intelligence than he has. I assumed that the invitation for people to step forward was good lawyering advice recognised and acted upon. It makes sense to assess the size of the problem, and the cost of it. And the more people they sign up, the fewer there are who might speak up and embarrass them. Can he buy his way out with our money? Having said all that, I will add that I empathise greatly with Chris and Abi and their wish to get off the front page, and of course first things first, I respect their need for privacy at this time, but I do not see why this means that the past must be erased from EPO, I feel strongly about this. Lesley Veale

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently From: Jim S. To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:15:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chris- First of all, you have my great respect for doing what you did. I 'left the fold' a few years ago, and wrote some letters to the community members in my community, and to m and ev as well.... I did it, not because it was an easy or enjoyable thng to do, but because it was the right thing to do, and my conscience compelled me to do it. The responses and lack of responses and denial were so revealing. You seem to be engaged in a similar situation. I wanted to make one point here, and to make it gently, as I know that you and your family have been through a lot. Also, as a recent ex, you must still be processing things and going through all kind of scary/exhilarating moments and realizations, as the past unwinds and becomes more clear. Additionally, you seem from your posts to be a very fair and kind man. I remember reading your posts about seeing maharaji personally in amaroo, and how you were so impressed by his apparent sincerity, and it seemed that you were ready to completely absolve him from all blame and start over with a clean slate, so to speak. Sometimes I am too nice, and too ready to let people start over with a clean slate. I wonder if the same might be true for you as well. I have caught myself doing this at times, and realize that I need to stand up for what is true, and for myself as well. I see many premies avoiding hard difficult choices right now in questioning their master, mainly because doing so would bring up so many uncomfortable feelings and shatter so many long held paradigm myths about the man and his position in their lives. While I am not suggesting 'piling on' the case of those who are critical of maharaji, I also would not suggest that he be let off easy, without fully explaining and accounting for the obviously immoral acts he has engaged in. What is needed is fairness and justice...sometimes I think that many premies are hesitant to stand up for what they think they deserve, especially if means confronting someone, and especially confronting maharaji. Lots of that conditioning still exists in us, even after we leave or adopt a different perspective. I think there is a lot going on now, and feelings and unerstandings may emerge in the future as more time passes, and possbly more people step forward. I would not be so quick to absolve maharai from all blame...I think that is exacly what he wants....on the other hand, I wouldn't make an obsession of going after him....I do think he needs to stand and be accounted for by telling the truth, and I think it is THAT which we need to press for..... We can occupy the moral high ground by asking for the truth to be told, but we must also be ready to stand up repeatedly to maharaji and the people who represent him, if and when we are ridiculed by them, lied to or manipulated by them, or we see obvious distortions and deletions promoted by them which revise history in order to escape responsibility for past actions that have been harmful.... I hope the point was made gently....it's something to think about, at least... Warm regards to you, Abi and the rest of yor family It has touched me to read your posts, and see the communication between all of you. Best of luck, Jim Sander

Subject: Re: To Chris Bray....gently but truly From: janet To: Jim S. Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 13:33:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dear chris-- I would like to add my voice to patrick's and Jim's here, to say that even with all the things on the table so far, there are some aspects of this that we ought not lose sight of. I am having some of these driven home painfully upon myself, just now, again and again, by acts my own son is committing. He is very ill, mentally, and has taken off on a sociopathic spree that has been playing out for the last month. During this time, he has repeatedly assured me of things that I took on faith as being just as he said them to me, and I have been repeatedly shocked to find out shortly later that they were barefaced lies. These were things i invested money and time and belief in, only to have my sincere investments in belief cruelly voided, again and again. I tell you this, by way of gently indicating that we may all be up against this same behavior in our attempts to get real communication and fair closure with maharaji, jagdeo, and all of his organization. anyone can put out a PR release to make things sound and look good to the public. that doesn't mean a thing. what matters is how people are treated when they do approach with a grievance and ask for recompense and just action. actions speak louder than words. you know this. i know that the reason I have believed my son every time he has said such assuring words to me, is because I WANT to believe the best of him, for him, about him. It makes me feel hopeful that things are getting better. But things are not. I was believing that since tuesday, he had voluntarily gone to a live in program at ahouse for others like himself, and was getting three hot meals a day and his meds and had 24 hour staff to go to. In fact, the truth was very different. I have just learned this morning that a short time ago he was arrested, while terrorizing a woman he thinks loves him, stalking her and trying to open the locks on her house after ranting for hours on her property, thinking he deserved to be inside her house by divine rights. and so my naive hopes were again brought back to stark reality. all the years we were premies, chris, we ran to anesthetized ourselves constantly, with soothing, hypnotic, childlike assurances that all was beautiful, that this was it, that all that nastiness didnt really exist, that the world was Maya and only the master's words were real. that clinging to the belief in escape will continue, long past the day of exiting. we spent decades immersed in it, running to it at every chance, wanting to believe in it, longing for peace. that habit will linger, long past the day of renouncing, and it will get you at times you don't see coming.it was a practice. in thought, in speech, in belief, in act, in choice. and we sought to keep ourselves with others who kept the same. that's not a pattern you break overnight. consider how much we want to believe in the good. consider any form of advertising. any form of promises. any form of PR. any form of spin control. manipulation of public and individual belief is a fabulously highly paid science and art, now. people will pay anything to get the public to believe what they want them to. It is not a crime to trust someone or believe them. It IS a crime to misuse that trust, to fool it, to knowingly and intentionally mislead it for any purpose. consider that jagdeo is still at large, with access to still more children. consider that there is a suit filed in india by DLM/EV india, making a grand public posture of show, to go after Jagdeo and bring him to justice. yet it is conspicuously questionable as to why DLM/EV claims they haven't been able to find him. consider that jagdeo is a man whose life has been maharaji and knowledge for decades. consider that he was reported in africa since the suit was filed and posted on the india EV website. consider that he is nobody, anywhere in the world, except among premies, and people who follow maharaji. consider the global network of the organization, the world over. doesn't it strike you as extremely unlikely that EV could not locate him yet? i don't think your daughter has to keep her name in the story, but i do think that the impact of her story, of what happened to her, ought to be kept out there where others can know. she need not even look in or distress herself by checking in. she can leave that behind her and go back into her own life. as others have said here, the names can be changed to protect the innocent, but the story ought be told for the public good. the guys posted above me are also telling you the truth, when they counsel you that there are early stages of leaving, and later stages. it is wise to leave a lot of room for how you will evolve and mutate and metamorphose as the days go by. you can't tell from today, what you will think in a year, in two years, and beyond then. none of us knows what people here might share with you, in email, on this board, or in person, that will modify your evolution again. we can, however, tell of how we ourselves changed over time, after we ourselves left. that much we do know. a poem by omar khayam comes to minf: 'the moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on... nor all your piety, nor all your wit, can stop nor change a word of it'. this business of wanting to go back and wipe out all traces and references to something that well and truly happened,--this is wishful thinking. one of the intentional strengths of the internet was designing it precisely so that information would be disseminated out in as many places as possible, so that it would not be possible to wipe it out and eliminate it. before the internet, the printed medium was much the same. something might get out into print, and it would become impossible to call back every existing copy, to eliminate the knowledge completely. how many individuals have had to face this state of affairs? consider madonna and her ill advised nude photos before she got famous. or the Miss America who was similarly deposed for her photos, discovered after her crowning. consider richard nixon, who was disgraced out of the most poerful position on earth, labored to the end of his life to redeem and restore his name, died with full honors, and then now again, the silenced vaults of his actions are now opened to the public, 25 years after the act? It is truly not possible to call back what has already gone before. as they say, 'you can't change the past'. it lives. it is known. and it has power. and you truly can not control everything. you can not control what people say, or think, or talk about. the wish is understandable, but it is not truly possible to do in a free will society. the best you can do is accept it and grow with it gracefully. abi can remove herself from the turmoil and live peaceably away from it. she need not put herself where it will afflict her. but it is unwise to try to wipe out the past. after all, it's the only thing that we have to go on. the past is the only factual thing we have that has ever happened, isn't it? when people tell me to quit living in the past, i apologize and remind them that it truthfully is the only thing i know. everything i ever found out, happened there. and yet, still, I am fooled and taken in by things people tell me they are going to do in the future, and i believe them. and live to rue another day when it turns out not to be true.

Subject: Thanks Janet...Good one.... [nt] From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:38:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: very well said, Patrick From: cq To: Pat W Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 07:11:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... and as Chris Bray himself said, regarding Revisionists: the past isn't something you can take to a laundromat. Let me first say that I'm fully in support of Abi's request to have her name removed from any articles/posts regarding Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children (which, since he isn't behind bars, or even receiving treatment as far as one can tell, could well be continuing). Removing all references to her name is something which, as Jim has suggested, could easily be achieved by replacing it with a suitably incognito tag such as 'witness x' or whatever. But that doesn't mean that ALL pertinent information she has divulged about this criminal (and his accomplices, of whom Prem Rawat has to be the most visible) should be removed from EPO. Surely some consideration has to be given to the other victims who suffered at Jagdeo and Rawat's hands, and who could themselves (at some future time?) gain support and perhaps even the courage to press charges against that child molester. Anonymity has often been 'dissed' on this forum. But this is one instance where it IS valid - insofar as it would be an attempt to protect a victim from further unwanted consequences of that abuse. To that end, the replacing of Abi's name in those posts would NOT be revisionism as such, simply for the reason that the nature of the abuse that took place would not be altered one jot. As for Rawat, it will forever be a major blot on his copybook, and one that he'll have to live with the consequences of, as long as the truth about his shady past is freely accessible on the internet (or elsewhere). IMO, the 'spear' analogy that Chris Bray used is not only emotive, but inaccurate. Nonetheless I respect his motives, and his position, coming, as it does, so soon after the trauma of exiting from Maharaji/Rawat's so-called 'kingdom'.

Subject: where is EV reference? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:38:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probably a complete dunderhead here but I've just hunted all over the Prem Rawat site and the EV site and can't find any reference to abuse and/or how to report it. Where is it, because it certainly aint obvious, well, not to me anyway... Livia

Subject: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 15:52:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, EV's concession is a small step in the right direction, but a very small step. It's under 'About Elan Vital' and then in very small print, 'policies'. Even on that page there is a prominent menu on the left, but 'policies' is missing. I doubt I would have found it without being told, and you and BT below have posted here saying you couldn't find it. It is clear EV is not being sincere in their offer, otherwise it would be highlighted on their home page, not tucked away in a disused toilet under the stairs. John.

Subject: Re: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: PatC To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 16:03:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: definitely my last post. :P EV's offer basically is a way to tempt premies who have been abused to come to them and settle for money and sign a confidentiality agreement rather than come to EPO and the forum and spill the beans.

Subject: Re: EV's offer is NOT sincere From: Cynthia To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:18:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think is a legal CYA thing (cover your ass) for those who don't know CYA. Any organization in the US whether private for-profit or non-profit is required by law to post sexual harrassment policies prominently in the workplace. A website isn't a workplace but this obsure notice of policy is neatly buried on the EV website. This is too similar to the Catholic Church's hotline that abuse victims are enouraged to call. I think victims should go to the police.

Subject: Victims should go to the police not EV [nt] From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 10:13:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Victims should go to the police not EV From: Vicki To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, May 27, 2002 at 03:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's called 'Open Door Policy', a standard corporate trick to give them a heads up on possible litigation and time to get their defense/offense legal maneuvers in motion. If they can con the reporting party into letting them 'handle' things, the better for them. It's such a nasty con because victims are most vulnerable and they exploit this vulnerability even further. Beware, be very very aware, this is no ordinary bear.

Subject: Re: where is EV reference? From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 10:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The policy is stated as follows: POLICY AGAINST HARASSMENT Elan Vital has a strict policy against sexual harassment or other forms of sexual misconduct. If you have been subjected to any form of sexual harassment or abuse by anyone associated or formerly associated with Elan Vital or other similar organizations, please contact Elan Vital’s General Manager at P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, California, 90264-6130 or at generalmanager@elanvital.org. Complaints will be responded to promptly and treated seriously.' This is tantamount to the Catholic Church's 'hotline for victims of abuse,' IMO. Cynthia http://www.elanvital.org/policies.html About EV, Policies www.elanvital.org/policies.html

Subject: Everything's Gone From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 04:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: The Anything Goes Forum plus my other sites have been removed from the web. This is due to my own personal and health reasons and not because of any person online. AG had outlived its use and was past its sell-by date. I should mention that I have been somewhat appalled by how online communication has developed and don't really feel a part of it. I think there's better things to do than spend time arguing with people one doesn't know in real life about things which are irrelevant to ones own life. The internet can be a very useful tool and information medium but I feel that things can get out of hand and one can spend too much time putting energy into a fruitless task. I also don't like the way in which words are used to insult other people and this is all the more abhorent when the people concerned don't even know each other. Someone once said, ''The internet is an interesting waste of time'' and I'd agree that that can become the case if one isn't careful. It's been very useful though in showing people who the real Maharaji is and I'm glad I've played a part in that. I'm also glad that through the net, I've been able to find news of former friends and even though the news wasn't always good, I am glad I got the information, for which I am grateful. The Great Worldwide Linkup is still online and I think it serves a useful purpose. However, when the curtain falls on one's own particular act, one must take a bow and then leave the stage. So good luck to all you people who I've had communication with. I might still post something now and then on one of the forums. Just don't hold your breath though. Anyone can email me at sirdavid12@hotmail.com if they want. Cheers, Dave.

Subject: Everything remains From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, May 26, 2002 at 22:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir David of Cheddar, All you've done to bring truth to light will remain for all of us who've known you through these pages. You've always been full of wit and wisdom and never cheesy. :) I've enjoyed your company of truth. Peace and good health to you and yours. Richard

Subject: Re: Everything's Gone From: Jennifer To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, May 25, 2002 at 14:44:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir D, God, I loved your story about guarding the cheese. That was a Best of the Forum, for sure. Enjoy your life, no pun intended! Jennifer