Subject: God Realisation From: JohnT To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:29:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was posted to me by a premie over at the Symposium. The original's here, if you're interested -- I've edited what follows to focus on the incredible conceit that even the 'nicest' premies display. I've added emphasis to the phrase I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one (M) opens. This seems to be the bub of it. No premie could go further in allowing the pssobilities that there are other paths to, uhhh, whatever-it-is. Yet despite all the apparent open-mindedness, there it is. The same old, same old. Exes never got it. The experience. Enlightenment, God Realisation. Whatever. M is the real McCoy, and all you exes just a bunch of losers. As for a never like me. Well, I dunno. Am I lower than you souls who heard the word but spurned it? Or are you lower than me, for I never had a chance before my mind was poisoned by you low lifes? Poisoned away from the possibility of God-realisation by virtue of Rawat's Divine Grace? You tell me. I'm off to throw up. ... while I can only affirm M's way for enabling a person to get linked with that thing within that I believe is the form of what the scriptures call God where it can be directly experianced by a living human being, I do not attempt to say that no other way to achieve that state can exist. ... some positive stuff ... happened to some jail house Christians as some 'grace' that had come to them thru their sincerity. And I've seen some AAs who are not premies have some results that strongly suggest to me a connection to God within them, tho not one that smacks of the kind of experiences the authors of scriptures describe such as I have had by M's kindness in revealing K to me and because K works. Can other ways work? Clearly 'Yes' for other things than what his initiation and subsequent use of the kryas as he instructs does, probably 'Yes' for a more limited form of God-realization. I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one he opens to folks; obviously I can't rule that out as I didn't try all paths by a long shot! But is he the only Master, or even the only Master of this path? I don't pretend to know, never have. I only state he IS a Master of this path, which CAN be used for direct internal experiance of God, and that occasionally even allows external exoeriances of God to occur. And I state this unequivically as testimony based on events I have experienced myself, some of which I have described on these fora. ...

Subject: No, it's not a joke... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm moving to Anyboards software. Hang in there during the transition. Dave, I don't know why you can't register and log on. Chuck, thanks for your comments; This is like the Rolls Royce of forum software, compared to hotboards (which is like a '69 volkswagon beetle, with rust). The options are almost overwhelming. This has very fine possibilities. I approve Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: When does this place close? From: AJW To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:27:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi gerry, I just hopped over to the new forum and managed to post a message ok. When is this place closing down? And who is that woman in her underwear, trying to sell me printers? Anth the forum hopper

Subject: It's my wife tryin' to make a buck From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 10:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean my live-in girlfriend. I'm in no hurry to close 7 and I want to work out the inevitables and let y'all get used to it. Once I'm satisfied the new board works, I'll work on eliminating the ads. PS Your post is currently rated a 8.5 at F8

Subject: I don't get the instruction... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, can you email me? sylviecyn@yahoo.com I think I'm logged in but...I have questions...:C)

Subject: i hope webtv can handle it From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:14:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or it'll be more than a joke, It'll kill my ability to be here.

Subject: Well, hell, try it From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're cranky this morning.

Subject: New Features on F8 From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:08:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Multi-page threaded or non-threaded message board Register and protect your identity with a password Auto fill-in of your name and e-mail address after you login for each session. Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session. The ability to modify your own posts. The ability to delete your own posts. The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts. The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically. Identify new posts easily (by different color) The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field). The ability to add link URLs. Automatic detection and linking of URLs in message body. The ability to add image links. The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts. Posts with an image are so indicated on the main page. Register just once for multiple forums on the same site. Login and password for each user will work for all forums. You can search message body (CPU intensive) as well as subject field for keywords (Find feature) within a date range. You can use the Overview feature to read top level posts (without replies) You will be banned automatically after a setable number of violations :-) Easy access to information. Very readable layout. At a glance of the message line, a user knows whether the post is new (coloring), size of the message, whether it has an image link inside, rating of the message (if enabled), number of replies to it, and the number of visits to it (if enabled). One can also collapse or expand the threading. Where am I? function allows a user to find out where he is among a big thread of discussion. Modifiable user profiles. Registered users can create and modify their profiles and passwords. Rate posts or articles and see stars and vote counts next to them. Detects and rejects 'double rating' on the same page. Peer moderation when enabled, posts rated below certain point will not be shown on the main forum. Private discussions between any two registered users. Unlimited number of suveys. Chat room. Many more. Here's the manual netbula.com/anyboard/manual/manual.html

Subject: Re: New Features on F8 From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 12:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. I linked to the instructions, copied yours, and am going back outside for a drink of sunshine and hope I don't get burned.

Subject: Excite Doc Reunion From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:21:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir, I'm not really geared up with this electronic stuff and have not organised email adress. Mark has been invalided out of the force, usual pension rights assigned. Maybe a regimental reunion would be in order, it's probably 25 years since the unit disbanded. The records can;t be released for 100 years under the official secrets act. Several members have found it difficult to adjust to life in civvy st. It is likely Mark will attend the forthcoming celebrations in Brighton. If he reports in before then I will forward your message. At ease and get that hair cut. Must go now and polish the brass buttons on my uniform. Private Bolly (retired, with full honours, no pension)

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: The falcon To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:06:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, I hope that you prime Doc to be somewhat surprised when he meets Mark again, I know him as he was in business with some good friends of mine, just pleased he is still intact(?) WPC-what a fucking joke! Military manouveres, lead off church roofs, drug dealing (even then, stolen building materials for Ally Pally stage , complete with quotes from the Bible but John Lindus-what a star! got out very early but not unscathed, thank God! Charles Pennington Leigh? - ask Jeff Stubley! all the best The Falcon (just a couple of mice this time, sorry!)

Subject: It was both him and us From: Peter R. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:46:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in Paris some years back and visited the Army Museum. There, in a glass case, were Napoleon's grey overcoat and black cocked hat. I immediately felt an energy leap across to me, and felt projected deeply into Holy Name (better than anything remotely experienced in meditation for days). At Rome 1990, after an entirely fruitless first session, perched in a remote corner about a mile from the stage, I took a walk, ending at the Spanish Steps. There was a huge crowd on the pavement. I asked a blissed looking woman what it was about, and she said 'Il Papa'. True to form, the Popemobile trundled round the corner and the mob went ecstatic. I was as blissed out as anyone. The explanation for the Napoleonic experience is presumably that, because I always used to be a fervent admirer in younger days, I automatically tripped at the trigger of his old uniform and manifested deep love for him (the alternative explanation, that it was Napoleon coming through to me seems less plausible..) In the Rome situation, I was caught up in a general group anticipation and exhilaration. (I felt rather guilty about this, but had a good experience with M next day). In the case of videos, however, the reality seems different. I've sat through endless ones which were a total tribulation (coca cola analogies, rolexes, etc.). On other occasions, I was totally transfixed, as Maharaji spoke poetically and beautifully of really meaningful things. I attribute the latter to moments when Maharaji himself was in good form, and the energy was flowing through. I think much of the time he isn't experiencing anything much good himself (consciousness jaded through malpractices, cognac...?). In earlier years, when I had ecstatic experiences, listening to him at Festivals, with tears rolling, I am quite convinced that there was a transference taking place from his heart to mine. Similarly, when we danced with him, it was on a totally different level to the mindlessness I experienced watching Roger Daltry smash his guitar to pieces in 1967. Receiving Knowledge is a real experience, Bris, no matter what the teacher later becomes, or how he hazards his own power by substance abuse. In that session, access to the inner sensory organs was restored to you by a transfer of energy. Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). Though he isn't the Lord, Maharaji is still a master, though a flawed one. He's perhaps one of many who can give the same divine experience. No amount of belief that it's just projection and wishful thinking is going to change that.

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: janet To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'it worked because you believed it would'. none of the experiences mitigate the wrongs, the suicides, the abortions, the broken marriages, the abandoned children, the concubines,the unearned millions, the deliberate deceptions, concealments, dishonest revisions, uncaring treatment, et al. none of it.

Subject: You. Cannot. Be. Serious. From: Neville To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this.' This is an absurd claim. For starters, you are using refs from a 'gospel' that was written centuries too late to be authoritative—-typical premie selectivity. (BTW we have fragments of Mark's Gospel at Magdalene College, Oxford, dated at about 50AD--powerful evidence that it was written early enough to be accurate history.) You are completely ignoring what Christ actually did teach, as recorded in the most authoritative documents we have. This teaching was in no way pantheistic-—it was clearly theistic. He preached against the law of karma (as expressed in the attitude to people's misfortunes). He preached against mantras. (Surprised? See Matthew 6 v 7.) He in no way, shape or form supported reincarnation. And so on. Regardless of whether or not you accept the teachings of the New Testament it is hard to imagine any spiritual teaching further removed from that of Maharaji. It is opposite in all manner of respects. I'm frankly astonished that anyone is still pedalling such a ridiculous claim. Neville

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: rgj To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter R wrote: --- - Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). --- -- This is selective literalism, a tendency which fundamentalist Christians in particular are prone to. The Gospel of Thomas is regarded as apocryphal, and Xians don't believe that Jesus was giving out techniques of meditation. In my premie days, I confronted a Christian friend withe the Biblical assertion that 'the truth is within'. To which she responded that the correct interpretation was that the truth was within ... reach. The idea that all the originators of the great religions gave K, is I think just a way of providing this modern cult with an impressive pedigree. Words like: light, love, knowledge, truth, are so ambiguous that you could probably make an argument that any philosopher that touched on them was a Master, giving out divine K. Premies used to say that Shakespeare and Socrates were, if not masters, at least God-realized. There are some intriguing arguments that Jesus never existed: 1 . There is no reliable historical corroboration of Jesus' life, or events such as Herrod having 1st-borns killed. 2. Even Christian scholars who believe in the existence of a historical Jesus accept that virtually nothing for sure is known about him. (Except that He was wrong: the world didn't come to an end). 3. The oldest Christian scriptures are the Epistles and Revelations, followed, a hundred or so years later by the 4 Gospels and Acts. (Its unclear whether Acts came before or after the Gospels). 4. The Epistles never talk about the practicalities of Jesus' life (carpenter, teacher, miracle-worker, K-giver, casting out the money lenders from the temple, tried and executed). This is what some new testament scholars call The Silence. Instead, the Christ of the Epistles is more akin to Greek ideas of a saviour spirit than a Judaic king. The original Christian scriptures are all Greek. 5. The idea that a human could be at one with God is sacrilegious to Judaism. 6. The Epistles were sent to already well-established communities throughout the empire by the apostles supposedly within living memory of Jesus. 7. The new testament - at least in translation - has a poetic, literary quality. The texture of the stories of Jesus are identical with that of the parables he tells. It's also full of Midrash - the telling of supposedly real events in sufficiently vague language that they can be interpreted as being consistent with earlier prophecies. This latter, like our friend Peter R's assertions above, is essentially an appeal to the authority of the past: understandable for simple people in pre-scientific times; more suspicious now. Instead, some have argued that Christianity is Greek in original, an offshoot of mid-Platonism, based on a belief in a savior-spirit that comes between man and god in a spiritual realm, and through self-sacrifice enables man to be accepted by god. These ideas were transmitted throughout the Roman empire either directly by believers or indirectly by sophists or other wandering philosophers. There would have been groups of such people in Rome, Alexandria and perhaps even Jerusalem. Perhaps as a way of unifying such a sprawling movement, perhaps in response to cultic tendencies among some Xians to worship figures like John the Baptist (for whom there is some historical evidence, though none for the stories in the Bible), folkloric tales collected in documents such as the putative Q and perhaps the many apocryphal writings, together with myths, superstitions and Jewish prophecies, were woven together into a narrative either by Mark or people he had access to. The other 3 evangelists used Mark to a greater or lesser degree. On the other hand, maybe Plato was a perfect master, too. rgj

Subject: Maturing Gracefully From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following was inspired by some poster calling another 'a dried up old hag'. Thought I'd post while I still have unfettered acces to this machine. Silken tressesfloating across the pillow have detached themselves formed cobwebs clinging to the corners under my bed where the dust of dreams is gathered With a stiff brush the hair once rose a gleaming cloud protecting my head containing the sharp thoughts therin A complexion from miss pears has faded miss ugli fruit brought character brilo pads accentuate cross hatching of ideas writ large around eyes and mouth creeping across the forehead I swear I never heard from her this creased and crinkled grey framed creature I glided through life elated, passionate with limitless energy did not look back when she hokked my spring loaded knees with her knarled umbrella Slower now I walk with her she is both wise and interesting Dedicated to all those who are maturing gracefully Love Bolly

Subject: who's gonna be the first in? From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:01:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Announcing.... Forum Eight

Subject: How do I sign up? [nt] From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:17:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How do I sign up? From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:31:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: what the hell for????? From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 01:21:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what is this being started for? is f7 dying? are we trying to create a still better version of the forum? this the previously stipulated space where so called spiritual ex's can speak without having to watch for shark attacks? is this the hybrid between the secrecy and exclusivity of RE and the public brawling of f7? did i miss some vital vote on the creation of yet another try at a forum that meets everyone's conditions? am I gonna be rejected from this one just like i was from RE when I knocked on that door?am I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? are we gonna put JIm on probation at this one and put him thru obedience school? who's the FA at f8? hey==f8==fate. ooooo wweeeee wooooo...

Subject: Re: what the hell for????? From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:22:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? probably :)

Subject: Hey Janet... From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you know there's a 'disallow replies' function on the new board?

Subject: If there were a From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: disallow replies from specified people - that would be the ticket.

Subject: Here's something as good From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:11:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, a registered user can set up his/her profile to ignore posts from certain posters. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm sure it works. This means posts from 'Nasty Nate' or whomever you've placed in your 'ignore' file, would not show up on 'your' version of F8.

Subject: Jesus you pull these stunts:::: From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :::at2 in the morning: later:

Subject: Walks on water From: gerry To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:39:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it is cool software and I've put many hours into it and I don't know all the ins and outs and there's room for a lot of improvement. So if anyone want to be part of the 'beta version' please do so. I'd like to switch the conversation over there as soon as practical and I'd like everyone to have the time they need to get familiar with the format and the 'possibilites.'

Subject: It won't let me log in From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:43:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everytime I try to it just redirects to an error page.

Subject: Re: It won't let me log in From: Vicki To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:16:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So is it a joke?

Subject: Closing of Maharaji's Ashrams -- 1983 From: Divine Times Reporter To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 15:34:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Following is an interview with a long-term ashram premie about the way in which the ashrams were closed in the USA in 1983. More demonstration of what an uncarring asshole Maharaji is: ...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering. There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given. I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely. One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram. Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off. The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt. When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others. Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc.? It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt.[On their credit card, or the debt was in their name, even though the debt was taken out to support the ashram or Maharaji personally, like for his plane. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this? I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame. When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him. I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else. That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.

Subject: WHERE IS THIS INTERVIEW FROM?? From: Francesca To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:10:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any info would be much appreciated, such as publication (magazine or newspaper, website) and date of publication, if it is a mag or newspaper. Thanks for any info. Francesca

Subject: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: Pat W To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:13:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just wanted to say that my memory of the closing of the ashrams at that time is EXACTLY the same. I don't know who wrote this but this is indeed a very accurate account of what happened. I was starting to doubt my own memory under the pressure of the current revisionists. So thanks - whoever you are. I was a victim of the Great Ashram Purge too. I believe Dick Cooper was the UK co-ordinator, in charge at the time , and I recall being sent to Newcastle ashram (from London) where I was sort of being tested to see if I was one of the 'Elite'. Newcastle ashram was considered a fairly tough regime where no doubt I was supposed to 'crack' under the watchful eye of 'Big Frank'. I obviously failed the test because I was given the boot after some months there. The whole ashram system was riddled with hypocrisy and questionable ethics. It was hard work crediting Maharaji (who one believed was a virtuous person) with being the designer and orchestrator of this mess. In fact by then he was singularly quiet and lacking in input on the ashrams - certainly not the screeching dictator who had a few years earlier been urging us to join and who was advertising the place as being His Shelter and the thing he cared about most. What bullshit that was. His lack of input indicated that he wanted to quietly back out of his responsibilities about the ashram. By that late stage I think the rules had been bent (relaxed) by almost everyone. Certainly the co-ordinators (Frank and Dick Cooper included) pampered themselves in a way that may not have been considered fair earlier on. I personally was very into the idea of becoming more 'normal' and responsible since I was under no doubt by then that the strict rules and 'chain of command' was a travesty of any kind of healthy spiritual environment that we once had aspired to. I also deemed that it was not helpful to serving Maharaji to be the uptight, loser type breed of ashram premie I saw around me. I had started to get work again as a session musician which I had before been encouraged to abandon because it was considered to be inappropriate to get a job which you liked as you'd be 'attached' to it. So my independant thinking got me booted out I guess. I just figured that I'd rather think for myself and do my best at earning money than be on the dole in Newcastle. At the time I assumed Maharaji knew what he was doing and I was quite shocked when I heard that he had admitted that it had been a 'mistake' and an 'experiment'. I felt pretty depressed that the best years of my life had been sacrificed to a failed experiment. When I later learned how remote Maharaji was from actually having any concern for us and how he actually was really completely preoccupied with his own extravagant and rich life I was appalled. It still hurts to think I was duped into thinking I was surrendering to his care and love. In reality there was none there. He was not the loving Lord I'd imagined. From then on (after I had been chucked out) I basically didn't listen to premies ideas about what I should do - and started keeping the money I earned so as to build some kind of life for myself. I was 25or 26 at the time. Fortunately my mother took me back in (my father had died) and I had a roof over my head. But basically I had to start from scratch as I'm sure we all pretty much did. Maharaji never addressed the subject as he rightly should have done. I absolutely concur that he initially was totally responsible for giving out the message that all single premies should move into the ashram. This was around 1977-8 I think. He should have held a meeting for all those people who had given their lives to him - and offered them explanation and apology. That is what he should have done. But he didn't. Instead he sought to shun responsibility and to brush the matter under the carpet. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. Exactly. That was the most honest thing he let slip ( for this comment of his about it being 'a failed experiment' was never official as far as I know - it was more of a famous rumour). The fact that he has never made any public reference to this 'failed experiment' confirms that he is embarrassed to be seen as someone who makes mistakes. He wants to maintain his 'trustworthiness' after all. His lack of concern for the ashrams - his abandonment of them really - was the single thing that alerted me to the horrific fact that he could not be trusted. He had once established a team of Instructors- championed by people like David Smith - who travelled around the world laying on his demands in the most intense way imaginable, that we should surrender our lives in the Ashram. I just cannot believe that now people have so widely blotted the memory of this period of insanity out of their lives- or don't want to look at it - perhaps preferring the 'reformed' Maharaji. He might be reformed but he has not paid for his mistakes. He needs to be made to account for his past evils somehow. One other thing I wanted to comment on about ashram life - which ties up with Mike Finches open letter to M - is the fact that there was a contradiction in the ashram generally, about being humbly surrendered to doing whatever you were told and on the other hand, maniacally trying to claw your way into any service which took you out of the humdrum provincial ashram rota, and closer to Maharaji himself. Ashram premies were riddled with ambitions in this area. I held to my principles on this matter and assumed that whatever I was told to do - however menial- was as graceful a gift from Maharaji (God) that I could get. So I was appalled to observe the lengths that most ashram premies went to, to scrabble their way to do 'better' more direct service. That was where a lot of manipulation, back-biting and plain greedy selfish behaviour was manifest. It was ugly. Devotees jostling and treading on each other without concern and in a most hypocritical manner was apparently acceptable to Maharaji. He almost played on this and teased people about it - giving them Instructor forms to fill in etc. I tried to avoid being so 'career' oriented - I guess I still had my old Christian morals, and consequently sunk to the bottom of the desperate writhing heap. So I learned from this that, far from people's rise to prominence or favour being a 'blessing', it was quite clearly due to their own ambitious efforts most of the time. This took the form of pathetic gopi-like girls writing endless tear-stained letters - filling in applications to be instructors - and such-like. You know, Maharaji made us fawn and fight for these 'services'. I never did though. Later on, ironically, when I started to get successes as a musician through my own considerable efforts and not through 'Grace' etc. I was 'noticed' by Maharaji's organisation as being of some use - and actually became quite involved in the Elan Vital productions to the degree that I got to meet Maharaji and all the stuff that being a humble devotee had never before resulted in! I liken the Ashram situation to M being like a Master of a pack of dogs who he kept penned up where their natural insincts to run wild and free were curtailed. So here are these dogs who basically are so desperate to get out and have a good time (like nature intended) and yet whose 'training' means that the only good time they can anticipate is when their 'Master' singles them out one day for the hunt or whatever. And what do they do mainly in their pen? Why, jostle for favour of course - and that can get pretty ugly. So Maharaji's attempt to control us in the ashram in the way he did was actually a really wicked thing. He worked extremely actively to coerce us into that situation (NB. in all the ashram meeetings / Instructors conveying his Agya about this far and wide) and yet when we were all there, he played no real active part - showed little care for the suffering of inmates and abandoned us to this fate until it suited HIM to distance himself and relinquish responsibility for it all - ie when his naive ideas about it all had, quite predictably, gone wrong. He had allowed the ambitious ones who fawned the most to rise to prominence and generally succeed in their ambitions to the cost of the more humble to whom such cringing hypocritical ambition was anathema. This is not the behaviour of someone with any real care or character - let alone a Master of Perfection. Let's face it - he didn't know what was going on and he didn't care. His behaviour was simply evil. He did an evil thing to put people through this stuff with such callous disregard. Shame on people who don't learn from this or who condone his behaviour.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: PatD To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 13:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, & the division between the ashram premies & the rest is also proof of his total lack of any sort of mastership. One in the spirit,what a joke.I always had a big problem with being regarded a 2nd class premie(maybe it was more in my mind than in other's)because I never could take that step. The people he sucked up,used,& spat out have been airbrushed out of history.Those he spurned in those days are the ones now sitting at his feet. It stinks out loud.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: The Falcon To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:17:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Patrick, not my experience but it does confirm that of many. As an aside, while you were enduring this travail Dick Cooper (before he dicks you, as the joke was at the time)was out shagging anything wet and warm (ashram, non-ashram, married, you name it - sorry her)and left a trail of broken hearts to complement his tyranny. In mild mitigation, I never have understood that sexual suppression malarkey, just oozes out the sides.

Subject: I was so naive... From: Cynthia To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:38:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So I learned from this that, far from people's rise to prominence or favour being a 'blessing', it was quite clearly due to their own ambitious efforts most of the time. This took the form of pathetic gopi-like girls writing endless tear-stained letters - filling in applications to be instructors - and such-like. I never looked at myself as a gopi and even though I wanted to be physically close to maharaji, wrote to him every day (even prior to joining the ashram) I also felt as if I was completely out of control of where I would ever end up being. I don't recall back-biting about filling out applications, but I was also living in my own little world of maharaji in the ashram. And believe me, it was agya to fill out those applications for 'the (Deca) project.' I was quite naive about it all, with Lila abounding in the era of slave labor for the Lord. And make no mistake, most of the ashram premies worked hard in the cities and towns where we lived. I was a higher income earner so the Hartford ashram wasn't all that happy to see me go down to Miami based on the ashram finances--plus they had to come up with my flight money to be there in two days! To even be told as ashram premies that a 'purge' was going to happen is so demeaning. I was long gone by 1983. I got married in 1983. So I wasn't there to be 'purged.' It sounds like a high colonic or something. How dreadful and I agree, Pat, evil of Maharaji to not say word one to those who he hounded into going into those ashrams. The pressure wzs absolutely intense to give up everything in life just for him. What a coward that he couldn't even show his face. And another thing I always wondered about. How many ashrams did maharaji ever visit? What was his excuse for that? I know that by the late 70s the ashrams I lived in (except the Broadripple) were spotless, clean, very holy, and prepared for a visit from him. Plus, I wonder about all those premies whose divorces I helped to process so they would be free to provide free slave labor at DECA--it was done at DLM headquarters in Miami Beach. They must have felt like shit after splitting up relationships--Maharaji treating divorce like it was a dog license or something to be expunged from the life of a true Devotee--by his definition... only to be purged in 1983... Why didn't he go to these places to see his most comitted devotees by HIS definition? The purge...

Subject: ****BEST OF***A KEEPER***** From: Cynthia To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 16:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I left the Gainesville ashram in January, 1981 and I was shocked when I heard that Maharaji closed down all the ashrams. I couldn't believe it. Even though I was not 'in touch' I knew what the commitment was and always wondered how premies felt as a result of Maharaji's renegging on his provision of a life shelter for those who wanted to dedicate their entire life to him. The reasons I left are trivial compared to those who were in those ashrams. Despite all of the screwing around folks did for the most part, most of the ashram premies I ever met had a deep devotion to Goomraji. What an ungrateful bastard Maharaji is! I paid off debt and made arrangement for my debts to be dissolved before I moved into an ashram. When I was called to DECA I gave away, and threw away most of my most precious belongings: family photos I gave to my sister, I threw away a huge volume of poetry that I'd written from age 16 up to age--gone, anything else I owned was given to the ashram and I left for Miami with a couple of suitcases and two boxes. That Maharaji never addressed the ashram premies directly is indicative of his indifference. What a coward. What a fraud. No note of thanks either. Maharaji is very deficient in the gratitude to others 'arena,' to steal one of his words. The above post is very important IMO because it probably describes the feelings of many ashram premies who were still around in 1983. I'm shaking my head. Shame on you, Maharaji, you louse.

Subject: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:57:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did the person of Prem Rawat ever demand devotion to himself, i.e. his physical form? Well, the answer is a resounding YES. I've been listening to the evidence, and when I get time I'll transcribe the relevant bits. The evidence I'm talking about is his public addresses during the Hans Jayanti festival in Kissimmee, Florida, November 1979. In the speeches I've listened to so far, he rambles a lot, but when he's not rambling, he says over and over again that we should give our devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, and in case anyone thinks he wasn't talking about his physical form, he then makes it very clear by talking about how we are all waiting Guru Maharaj Ji to sit in the throne he was sitting in, and in other ways. He hardly mentions the experience of meditation. He also made it very clear that our love for Guru Maharaj Ji should take precedence over our love for our families. This festival lasted over a week, with 3 hours of speeches from Maharaji every day, with much of the rest of the time taken up with devotional speeches from senior followers in his organisation. Pretty standard mind control technique really. John

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: AV To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:32:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was it not the case that M offered the 'gift of devotion' at this time; like it was some big turning point, the upshot being that devotion wasn't something we were even capable of ourselves, unless M offered us that opportunity. Rather like when satsang stopped and M said that it was his gift, we didn't own it.. 'the lord giveth and the lord taketh away..' references to k irself were pretty rare as I recall, some quotes from kabir etc , most of the time it was all about surrender, understanding (which meant standing under), devotion, all of the self anhialating stuff, ridding the self of the ego so it could merge, drop in the ocean etc etc

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:50:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone remember the satsang Marolyn as aka Durga Ji gave about her birthday? Maharaji wanted to know what she wanted and she said something along the lines of not wanting a fur coat, etc etc and then I distinctly remember her saying 'You know what I want.' She then proceeded to say how Maharaji gave her this little discourse about devotion, which was all she wanted, to be surrendered in devotion. Crickey, if she wasn't surrendered in devotion, then who the heck was ever going to be able to? This wasn't in her newlywed days, either.

Subject: Well, in 1979, She got a Caddy... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 14:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It could have been '80, whatever. I believe it was a birthday gift but could have been an anniversary one. Dates anyone? He had some premies tie the car in a Huge White Bow at DECA, and it was presented to her in private, but later on he drove it out or she drove it out, of the garage where all the other cars were. It was a Seville, I think... So, I guess she surrendered enough to warrant a brand new Cadillac. Or basically the whole thing was big act. I do have a lot of tapes from that festival...I'll look check out what I have. I have a lot of bootlegged tapes of her satsang. At that Hans Jayanti I remember words he said that were directly related to surrendering to Goomraji. 'What is the price of one word of Goomraji?' and on and on and on. 'Pray to Goomraji, surrender to Goomarji's feet.' Difficult to forget that stuff for me.

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: D. Votey To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 13:29:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marolyn was just voicing what any good wife and true student aspires to. Pity some people on this forum don't try to emulate her. In that place D.

Subject: Re: Did Maharaji ever demand devotion? From: Neville To: D. Votey Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 15:57:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, and look what she got for being such a good wife and student: a husband who was a serial adulterer. Pity that premies refuse to face reality. Neville

Subject: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Joy To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:40:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was a film on TV in England last night about the first Glastonbury festival (I guess in honor of it's happening this weekend again) and right in the middle was a clip of you-know-who being fawned over by Bihari Singh and Mahatma Gurucharanand, as well as some of the original hippie devotees. Susi Bai was there looking blissed out and mahatma-like in a shawl, as well as some others I didn't recognize but perhaps some of you guys will. Maharaji (or Guru Maharaj Ji as he was then known) was about 12 or 13 and looking very commanding and superior. I think he took a lot of this stance from watching his father and the tremendous adulation of the millions of Indian devotees. But he projects a sort of power and aloofness which at the time I took as a sign of his being some sort of incarnation. Now I just see it as conceit coupled with the socially imposed license to play Satguru that he inherited. He was orating in Nuremburg-rally-like-fashion about 'Knowledge of God' being within you, the thing that unites all religions, and that devotion was the key to experiencing it, etc., and I was struck by how clear and unambiguous his message was back then. I think he'd probably have lots more followers, particularly in the West, if he'd just stuck to that same theme without mincing words, even though it's controversial. It was his watering it down for mass consumption and trying to be a people-pleaser, putting on a suit and trying to appear somehow western and acceptable in his attitudes and message that made him seem so ridiculous to me in the end. (Plus the small fact that his whole Knowledge is bogus and a waste of time, not to mention devoting your life to gurus.) But he was on a powerful roll at the beginning there, and the subservient mahatmas and bodyguard made it seem all the more legitimate to my young and impressionable mind. I'm so glad I finally grew up. Now I wish he would.

Subject: It was '71, From: AJW To: Joy Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:31:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joy, It was 71. I was there. Our commune, 'The Talke Pits Development Company' moved down a month before the festival and helped build the stage. Those were the days of Rizla and burned lentils. I recognised quite a few people in the film, including my young, hippy self. Anth the Grey.

Subject: The big'ning and channeling GMJ From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 10:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice post Joy and a really interesting thread. After all, it was just such a dramatic big'ning that brought many of us to GMJ in the first place. I seem to recall Glastonbury Faire culture-wise was like Woodstock on steroids. There were stories of ancient prophecies being fulfilled and so on. In the midst of hippie hysteria, a clear calm voice spoke to a generation. Creezus Jhist, I'm getting all misty just thinking of those heady times when we thought we saw God in a bod. AV pointed out that Robin Heslop is shown in the video. He's the person responsible for setting up the Dish satellite-sang for M (aka PR). Ironic twist there. I suppose this means that Prem Rawat is now channeling Guru Maharaj Ji. :) Richard, hey nice acid . . . say what . . . The Perfect One is here now?

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Jethro To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:15:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My neighbour mentioned to me that she saw that program last night. I asked her if there was a boy guru in the film. She said that yes there was and that he spent a lot of time to say nothing.

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: AV To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:55:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The guy to the right was , I believe, Robin Heslop and further to the right a hairy Ron Geaves in full Hindu regalia if I'm not mistaken...(sheesh, even Bahari Singh was wearing a blazer and tie!) I think you are right when you said his message was clear and unambiguous: to summarise; you can't get knowledge of God from sects and religions, I have that Knowledge to show you God inside of you, to help mankind, and this knowledge you pay for with your love and devotion. (note, not a quote word for word, but the gist of...) btw, I don't believe the band Black Sabbath existed then...they certainly weren't on the end titles credits, Arthur Brown maybe? Any way, he was certainly on a powerful roll as you say; certainly the message that brought me to the fold ( I received K shortly after)

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: CorrecteDoc To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you may be absoutely right AV. It could well have been Authur Brown who was there dressed in dark robes and doing his Fire demonic showpiece which was an extremely odd lead into a small Indian boy getting up there to talk about god. Glad I wan't tripping at the time - it could have been a right spin ;)

Subject: Arthur Brown in Glastonbury 1970 From: AJW To: CorrecteDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:37:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it was Arthur Brown. He had three burning crosses in front of the stage. I think he was hanging on one of them at the start of his act, then he set fire to them when he sang 'Fire'. The other big names were Traffic, Quintessence, and Melanie. I think the Pink Fairies played naked from the waist down. There were only about 9000 people there. It was quite a small festival by today's standards. Anth the cosmic hippy

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:06:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was there but left before M, Bowie played and mimed!!?? Good do!Maharaji was booed once because when he said, 'you won't get this knowledge from sects and religions' the crowd thought he said sex and were rather displeased. The best bit in that film is where Ricardo and Lothar appear out of the long grass in full Rainbow Gypsy refinery complete with mudras.Excellent!! And at the very end there is a shot of a very blissed-out Saph with Jeffrey Segal in tow dancing down the Tor with guitars and flutes. Don't remember much about the festival though, nust have been something I ate!

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: Bolly To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said Joy, Times change Glastonbury and the guru seem to have gone in the same direction. This year a fifteen foot high steel fence has been erected to keepit all under control and keep out the freeloaders. No I wasn't there then and wouldn't want to be now. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: GlastonburyDoc To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:56:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was 1971 and Black Sabbath were playing at the time. Very weird! I have to say though, that the premies the next day were really beautiful and somehow clearer and higher than us stoned, tripped out hippies. I think that's what led a whole bunch of us swarming to the ashram to get Special K. Knowledge is bogus and a waste of time? That's just a matter of opinion Joy and that's all it ever will be.

Subject: Glastonbury film-changed perspective From: Livia To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:28:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I watched a bit of that film the other night and have taped the rest - can't wait to watch it! It was funny, though - I saw this film a few times as a premie and remember always thinking how crazy and in their heads everybody looked. Then Maharaji appeared with the premies and I used to think how peaceful and serene they looked in comparison with everybody else. Then I watched the first half hour of it the other night and to my surprise was struck instead by how very radiant most of the punters looked, and how united they all seemed. The whole vibe was quite mystical, sort of innocent and really rather wonderful, and the craziness I perceived on previous viewing appeared to be absent. It all harked back to my actual memories of that time, which was special, and the acid was very pure in those days! I missed that festival due to unfortunate personal circumstances at the time, but remember people who had been there (not premies) coming to stay with me immediately afterwards; they all seemed to be in a completely exalted state. My previous reading of the film says an awful lot about the prejudices and preconceptions I developed as a premie and how they coloured what I saw. It'll be interesting to see how M and the premies look when I get to that part of the film - if I can manage to view it in an unbiased manner - I'll do my best. Love, Livia

Subject: The Premies. From: AJW To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:42:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The premies were definitely not higher than the members of our commune, who were taking the most superb, pure acid throughout the six week period of the festival. The premies were running around like the cultheads they were, and we were soon to become. Did you see the angel by the stage on the third day Joy? The MC was talking to it and the whole audience was looking at it. Anth the psychedelic.

Subject: Angel? From: Joy To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:31:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've never heard about an angel. A real one? Everybody saw it? Cool. Perhaps it was the Angel Gabriel come to warn everybody off Maharaji! I wasn't at the festival though (see below).

Subject: Re: The Premies. From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:26:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's all coming back to me, the acid, the angel, David Bowie levitating eerrmmm?-maybe not! but he was there on stage, honest and the rabbits all came out of the hedges to play with us (true!). This was after Pir Vilayat Khan got everybody Sufi dancing , they were obviously hiding from Maharaji!I am reminded of the prophecy about the coming of Quetzocoatl in South America - on the day he was supposed to come to liberate the Incas, guess who showed-Cortes! Bad luck, guys, mind you, on reflection, we got off light. I do suspect that Maharaji at Glastonbury was a bit more contrived than that though, step forward-Ron Geaves,Saph, David Thorpe etc.

Subject: bill in Glastonbury 2002 From: bill To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:48:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I went to high school at Glastonbury High in Conn USA and the towns 'sister city' is the same glastonbury england you are mentioning. The town hall has letters displayed with info ect. G Doc says knowledge is a waste of time is a matter of opinion. Feeling your breath is something smokers do also, but the cigarette packs dont come with the misperception of life and reality that ALL the meditation groups come with. That is not a waste of time if you have 700 years to blow on whatever, or if you dont see the effects how one views life has on thier life, or dont care about details like accuracy or the self applied mud on the face of the living shrine of truth. Here in Glastonbury Conn, where I work most days, all the folks struggle to deal with the pursuits in life while comeing to some conclusions about why trouble follows every man. ALL the meditation groups have no answers or explanations the THOSE realities except weak guesses like ''karma'', or in the case of the genius rawat family, it is YOUR fault that you arent in ''that place''. Which is pathetic frankly and wont satisfy anyone who actually has to deal with this life.

Subject: Glastonbury in Conneticut? From: AJW To: bill Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:45:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Glastonbury in Conneticut? Next you'll be telling me Paris is in Texas. Anth, living in Cornwall, Zimbabwe.

Subject: Re: Glastonbury in Conneticut? From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:40:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah but the blue acid was shit, man!

Subject: Re: Guru Maharaji in Glastonbury 1970 From: gerry To: GlastonburyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:35:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to say though, that the premies the next day were really beautiful and somehow clearer and higher than us stoned, tripped out hippies. How do you know this, Dave? I mean really, isn't this just a very subjective impression you might have had some thirty years ago? I think it's just a matter of opinion and that's all it will ever be...

Subject: That's right gerry From: Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:46:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is just my opinion. At that festival there were a lot of local lads from the nearby towns (in 1971) who hadn't been there in 1970 and us 'old hands' were turning up our nose at them getting smashed on cider and throwing up all over the place. If they weren't doing that they were acosting stoned hippie girls thinking they'd get a free bonk - all very disturbing to us sincere real truth seekers:) Add to that our complete desolation about Jimi's death and his highly conspicuous absence - it wasn't a very happy time except for this extraordinary prediction that HE would return again. So yea, the premies the next day were a breath of fresh air, really open, cool, loving, beautiful...all the qualities that a good Afghan hashish would bring out. But sadly, there wasn't any hash of that quality at the festival site. :(

Subject: Which festival were you at David? From: AJW To: Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:54:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It doesn't sound like the same one I was at. I didn't see any drunks from the town throwing up all over theplace. Sounds like you were hanging out with a bunch of Hendrix anoraks who'd been sold some bum hash, and were generally on a downer. If you'd have met us, we'd have sold you some good gear. And who predicted that Hendrix would return again? I never heard that. Anth, 'beauty is in the eye of the leaseholder'.

Subject: Hey, can you guys remember..... From: Joy To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:28:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If there was any other type of pop festival around 1970-71 in England? I recall going to one with my hippie friends I was living with in London around 1971 or so, but can't, for the life of me remember where it was or who played. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Glastonbury. We were so stoned that I guess I formed no memories of the occasion, except I clearly remember riding back in the van, perhaps the drugs had worn off by then (guess it's a classic case of if you can remember the 60s, you weren't really there). Guess this is all totally off topic. But I'm scratching my head trying to remember where that festival might've been and who played at it. I'm sure I'd have remembered the Lord of the Universe if I'd seen him then, so it wasn't Glastonbury.

Subject: Re: Which festival were you at David? From: Marshall To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:02:34 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Hi AJW, That's funny, I thought the same thing as you. Of course I wasn't there being as I'm only 30 and haven't been to England. However my first reaction to Daves post was, 'What a bummer guy, must have been in the wrong scene'. I'm sure people in the 'know' there, as anywhere had access to great drugs. Only squids get bunk anything. What a lame-o.

Subject: Fuck off, rawat From: Angela To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:37:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fuck off, rawat. Get the hell out of my life, out of my marriage and out of my husband's head. You have done enough damage, to untold thousands of innocent people. Take your sorry ass back to India. If they want to worship your pathetic shadow of a teacher, they can, but get the fuck out of my life. You are the epitome of greed, sloth and obscene self-indulgence. Your voice and your face fill me with nausea and disgust. And the idea that anyone could dedicate themselves to you utterly boggles my mind. As for worshiping you, I feel only pity for them, and loathing for you.

Subject: Clearly expressed, Angela From: JHB To: Angela Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:02:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Succinctly expressed, Angela. I'm not sure Prem Rawat reads this forum, but I'm sure the people who monitor it for him will pass the message on:) Seriously, have you tried printing out pages from www.ex-premie.org and leaving them lying around the house? I find for myself that I'll read anything left in the toilet. Good luck! John

Subject: Re: Fuck off, rawat From: Marshall To: Angela Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:43:44 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Right on sister, I'll second that! Rawat got his grubby paws onto my parents when they were young, dumb, and vulnerable. Consequently they tried, unsucessfully, to get me into it with them. Even after being dragged along to every festival in the 70's, exposed to endless satsang, arti, etc. I still wasn't indoctrinated. I was even 'given the knowledge', but I just couldn't relate. How could I? I was fine, I was just a kid. Kids are usually fine, it's the adults who are always all screwed up and angst ridden. So anyway I saw through all the bull quick enough, but my parents are basically ruined by Rawat's cult. They don't think so, but they aren't objective and they're in denial, like all cult members. Rawat's at a lower level than a drug dealer to me. Even a drug dealer provides more than just hot air. I wish Rawat would fess up and force the remaining die hards to give it all up. He could just slither away with his millions and retire. Let people get on with their lives. Mr. Rawat. Please.

Subject: Re: Fuck off, rawat From: anon To: Marshall Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:04:59 (PDT) Email Address: swanley@hotmail.com Message: is maraji the anti christ, he definatly has gone in to some sort of regressision. I dont mind what happens to him it,s what he does with your mind that wories me. In the bible it says that as the world draws to an end, man would seek death, and death would elude him. Maharaji I feel very sad that u should be bringing about this situation. He has definately run away with the money When i joined you i asked you to take my mind from me now i want it back

Subject: Hi Marshall From: Jethro To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:55:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was 'step-father' for a while to someone who got k when he was 5(in the back of a car!!). His mother was qiute a Gopi-type and dragged him around from place to place to see m. His father who wasn't a premie didn't know where the boy was for 7 years. Fortunately, he hasn't been adversley affected, other than being somewhat embarrassed when it is brought up. He's now in his early 30s and his mum is an ex. chers Jethro

Subject: Good lord! From: Marshall To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:47:55 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Jethro, That is really funny that a 5 year old child was given the 'knowledge', in the back of a car?, no less. How ridiculous! At that age a bowl of ice cream beats meditating. Still does, now that I think about it. As far as being embarrassed...yea, I used to feel embarrassed about it up until about the time I discovered e.p.o. Now I laugh about it and I'm comfortable talking about it. I am embarrassed for my parents however, but they can do what they want, I suppose. Bye, Marshall

Subject: Embarrassment and the cult From: gerry To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:54:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to be very embarrassed when anyone would mention my cult involvement and never told anyone about it who didn't already know. I don't mind talking about it with anyone now. Understanding the dynamics and talking with other former cult members takes the sting out of it.

Subject: Apology From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:24:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not comfortable with anonymity but, right now, it is essential and much more effective! Love to all exes and premies (or whatever new shite thing they're called these days). please note; it takes about one hour to de-programme a premie who is a friend. longing for mischief in Brighton

Subject: No problem... From: Cynthia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:14:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Falcon, I have no problem with anonymity as long as you stay with one name--otherwise we can't tell the real folks from the trolls;) Btw, I don't think I introduced myself. I'm Cynthia Gracie from Vermont, USA. I got the big k in 1976 in Hartford, CT, moved into the ashram there, then was down in Miami for the big ole DECA debacle. Got burnt out in Miami, and was shipped to the Gainesville ashram for about a year and left in January 1981. Still worshipped his toenails, so I didn't really exit until about 1997-98. Welcome...I've been reading your posts and like your style a lot! Best regards, Cynthia

Subject: That's OK Steve (nt) From: AJW To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:46:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oops

Subject: AJW should be banned From: Jethro To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for giving away secrets!!!!!!!

Subject: PS: Anth From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 20:23:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bet you 5d that Falcon is not Steve.

Subject: The Falcon. From: AJW To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeth, You're right. I know who he is. In a moment of foolish weakness, he revealed his secret identity to me. But I'm sworn to secrecy. Anth (Jeth, just between the two of us, his name is Harry McCarthy. He used to live in Wolverhampton Ashram before he went to Bihar to do propagation. I believe he was successful and now has eight children.)

Subject: Re: The Anth From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:39:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seven, be honest, mate! The trailer is getting more homely now that we've fixed the leak, how is your beach hut? Do I sound like a Brummie? Where is Clive Atkins when you need him, a lovely soul in exile? Is Harry on the boat?

Subject: The big Q. From: Bris To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:30:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading through this forum, and other related web sites, is like turning over a big stone in the garden and seeing vast numbers of creepy things scuttle out - I'm talking about the murky past of M. and some of his close followers, of course, not you gentle posters. All these foul deeds and furtive cover ups - are they really true? Every last one of them? When I sat in a hall, listening to M. or watching a video, tears running down my face from overflowing joy (which nobody saw - not that they'd have given a flying f**k if they had); where did that feeling come from? You might say it was self-delusion - but it was vividly real to me. Can a source of joy reside in a human form tainted by drink, drugs, fornication and all manner of other shenanigans? Not in my book. And Im never really practised as much as I could, either - in that reference, I was a pretty sh**ty premie all round. Bit still I lived for another day, another event where I could give in to something rising up inside. Maybe most people would dismiss all this a crock of s**t, not worthy of a forum like this. Maybe you're right. But it still demands an answer - where did all the good stuff come from? The same place as the bad stuff? BriS

Subject: No way a crock BriS! From: Bryn To: Bris Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:41:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the stuff of real spiritual discovery BriS; the very stuff we could never approach when goverened by the rules laid down by premie-land. M would never permit any sincere public reflection or open ecxhange of perspective between his devotees-hence all the silly postures and gobshite that we used as social currency between ourselves. In my opinion the basic question 'can something so sweet come from something bad' is a clear symptom of a will to preserve the status quo. Take out of the equation the resolve to validate the guru figure as a sublime love focus, and the question disappears (technically anyway!.)Maybe he is good maybe he is bad, forget the sacred picture of him and either way goodness and badness cease to be the issue. What the issue then is,is:' So what was going on back then that made those things happen for me?' or words to that effect. Then the whole thing gets very personal and deeper too, and needs self examination and integrity. In short, take away the will to believe from out of all of this and you are left with a basic if uncomfortable process of self evaluation-no more. 'Can good come from bad' ideas are a smoke screen, a red herring. A smoked herring screen. I found that I had merely been through a certain process, no more than that, and 'the knowlege of god', 'supreme Master', 'Sat Guru Dev' etc were all charming but delusory stages on a continuing path. Huzzah! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Jerry To: Bris Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:02:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember once sitting in a satsang hall shortly before satsang, I was all alone before the crowd got there, and I was just staring, I guess you good say meditating, on a large portrait of Maharaji in the front of the hall. It was just me and him, me staring at him, and him staring back at me through his portrait when, suddenly, I felt a deep pang of love that I hadn't felt for some time. Most of my life at this time had been a feeling of emptiness, like living on a desert, and this feeling of love was something unique to me at the time. I didn't make much of it, though. Somebody else might have felt the love was coming from Maharaji, through his portrait, but my deepest instincts told me 'this is all you, Jerry, this is coming from you.' I still feel that way today, that it came from me. It wasn't something between me and Maharaji. I'm certain he has no idea I once shared such a private moment with a portrait of him, and I'm equally certain that he has no such power to radiate love from near or afar that touches those who come in contact. I don't see him as a beacon of love, only a catalyst as a result of what we hope for and expect from him. But you seem to think the 'source of joy' was coming to you from Mahaarjai. I hate to burst your bubble, Bris, but in all probability it was all just you. Every feeling you had came from you. Maharaji was just a catalyst for it, not the source of it.

Subject: Maybe not... From: gerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji was just a catalyst for it, not the source of it. Jer, I don't see how 'maharaji' the man, was a catalyst in this situation whatsoever. He wasn't there, it was just a picture and it was all you.

Subject: Re: Maybe not... From: Jerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 12:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it was a picture of Maharaji, Gerry. I don't think gazing at just anyone's picture would have that kind of an effect. At least, not anybody I wasn't enamored by such as I was by Maharaji and what he meant to me. I thought this guy was going to open the gates of heaven for me. Now I see that only Jennifer Love Hewitt can do that for me. Check out Me and Jennifer. I look a lot like Carson Daly, don't I?

Subject: it was just a picture and it was all you From: AV To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:46:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were a christian and stared at a picture of Christ for long enough, do you think something similar is likely to happen?

Subject: Re: it was just a picture and it was all you From: gerry To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 11:33:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were a christian and stared at a picture of Christ for long enough, do you think something similar is likely to happen? --- Absolutely. There are many instances of this in the Christian mystic tradition.

Subject: Strength through Joy From: PatD To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:01:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can a source of joy reside in a human form tainted by drink, drugs, fornication and all manner of other shenanigans? Not in my book. Yes it can ; Fuehrerkontakt,as described,understood,& manipulated by the Visions International of the day back in '30's Germany.(Leni Riefenstahl et al). Look,it's a shaming thing.I've had a hard time coming to grips with it myself,but the truth of the matter is that back in the glory days of 'spread this knowledge to every land',our psychological makeup was no different from that of the Nazis. That's the bedrock. My sister was on holiday in Normandie a couple of weeks ago when some old guys with Welsh accents arrived at the hotel.Survivors of D Day come to pay their respects at the graves of their old friends. My sister bumped into one of these men in the corridor & said 'thank you',he wept. I am ashamed that I ever followed Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

Subject: Hi PatD - lovely story From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:03:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hullo PattyD. How are you doing? The little story about your sister's meeting with the D Day soldiers choked me up. She thanked those guys for millions of people. Good on her for doing that. She must have been amazed when the old guy cried. I wish I could have been there to hug him and say thanks too. Hope all is well with you and yours. Fond regards, Marianne

Subject: All well,love to you too [nt] From: PatD To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:53:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Strength through Joy From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:25:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear PatD, You said you are ashamed of ever following Rawat. I understand shame; I've lived in shame most of my life. It was living in so much shame that brought me to the epoch of snapping out of my emotional illness and the cult. The shame belongs to Goomraji. Please try to forgive yourself and let that shame crumble up into bits of ash that you can throw in his direction. You were cult programmed, it wasn't your fault. See, this is what I've been trying to get across to the exes and fence sitters. We were conned! I don't see any shame in being conned; I see shame on and in the Conman, Maharaji. Therefore, I urge you to give yourself a fucking break. I've been thinking a lot about this. I've read a lot about this cult business. There was a point where we surrendered our freedom of thought. But after that, free will was lost. Now you have your free will back, don't be ashamed. That's about 25 cents worth, Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Strength through Joy From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:50:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia. I'm not going to throw myself in the river over all this,but I do think that it takes 2 to tango.Sure,after getting the sucker punch(stone age meds)I was putty in the hands of we who were the cult.Actually,not all that pliable,but that's bye the bye. Some people,lots of people,took one look at the guy & us & ran. I didn't.That's all I'm saying. I wish I had more time to crack on,I wish I could talk to you & everyone else in the flesh all night long.We'd have a great time. However, we can send each other little postcards of thought & memories through a medium that even God Incarnate can't control.LOL

Subject: Pat D. is that the From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:09:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: anniversary of the Dunkirk evacuation your sister was at? Bolly

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Neville To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:45:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It came from the same place that every single other cult got their experiences. Without these experiences no cults would exist. Neville

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Cynthia To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:42:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello BriS, So far no one has mentioned in this thread that we all were cult programmed. The reason I mention this is because I relate to all the things you said in your above post. I adored M, I loved to meditate. I lived only for him, but not for myself. All that was part of the package presented to each of us individually through satsang initially. As we became premies, I believed (felt that I 'knew') that the package was a 'gift' from maharaji, whom I looked to for all of my life experiences. Even if you set aside all the shitty things maharaji did in his past, he still was setting us up for guru worship and I for one fell for his speil. And it was a speil. Therefore, I don't believe now that any of it was self-delusion. Getting sucked into a false belief system and all the stuff surrounding maharaji, whether Hindu or new age, is not entirely our fault. I had very powerful experiences through SS&M. I spent time up close and personal with him. I ignored any fallibility which he displayed because I was that far gone into the cult. And please don't call yourself a shitty premie. That's another mindf**k he instilled within all of us--that was part of the cult-programming. I agree with everyone who stated this below: whatever you experienced that was good was inside of you. It was maharaji who made us believe that only he was the source and possibility to having a good life with beautiful feelings. When you add to all this cult-programming the revelations about maharaji's real life behavior and his blantant disregard for the feelings and lifestyles (prescribed by him) of his devotees (and I was a gopi), then the real truth about him simply confirms that he screwed with our minds and lives in a very destructive way. I would suggest that you read some of the anti-cult sites. There are many. Some are provided on EPO. ReFocus is a tremendous site which describes in many ways the process of being programmed, and the feelings on the way out. I posted a link to ReFocus...it's been very helpful to me and others here in gaining an understanding about how cults operate and how people get pulled into them (and out). Best, Cynthia ReFocus refocus.org/

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: The Falcon To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:55:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It came from within yourself and once free of the M bullshit-still does! This forum can get pretty polarised regarding the 'spiritual' side of things (may it ever be so!-very healthy in my opinion) but my paricular colours are pinned firmly to the mast of enlightenment as a very distinct possibilty, although I do love science's confirmation of the ancient wisdom; A good read is 'The Serpent and the Goddess'in which an anthropologist goes to South America and visits the curanderos (shamen) there, they give him ayahuasca and he takes the journey, on his return they give him their paintings.He then takes these to a molecular biologist who points out RNA, DNA, cell structures etc. Deeply intriguing stuff! More examples;- The may pole dance. The high and lonesome reel. The weaver goddess of the Celts. (on this, more later) And Rumi, back there in the 12th century talking about splitting atoms and producing light (some 600 years before Einstein). You are the source of your own joy (and everything else, perception is not reality!) all the best

Subject: Re: The big Q....A few big A's... From: la-ex To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:50:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Bris- Thanks for that great question, because I think that it gets to the heart of the great premie paradox/debate. When premies get threatened by stuff on EPO,they invariably turn to the argument of the 'Experience'.....they will say stuff ike 'but my experiences have been so real and personal, for almost 30 years, over and over again...how can you deny that?' Many times they will frantically race all over the globe to the next program to have more of these 'experiences', to try and ward off the confronting doubts of the great enemy - 'the mind', 'doubtmaker' etc... It is a good question....in fact I think that more good questions like this should be framed in a special section of EPO, to be answered by premies and exes alike..... Here are a few thoughts on it: 1)I do believe that maharaji, combined with a crowd of adoring, expectant premies gazing at him and focusing on his every word, can provide some sort of high experience for those who are open to it, and are believing that he can deliver it. My father, who is not a spiritual guy at all, once called him a 'spellbinder', and said that every generation has them. They can 'cast a spell',and the followers report all kinds of high, magical experiences from being around them. I don't think this is anything new, and if you check out ANY guru, their followers will all tell you exactly the same thing. People have amazing experiences meeting movie stars, rock stars, political leaders, the pope etc. I think many times they would have the same experience with that personality, even if it were an imposter they were seeing. 2)I believe that maharaji milks this for all it is worth, because this is really all he has to offer. Let's face it-meditation is a bust.....most premies don't even do the required one hour/day, and also don't have any amazing experiences with it. A few do, and experiences can be gotten from any meditation, if one does the techniques with a belief in them, and a willingness to do them regularly. Premies generally don't like the organization, and don't want to do anything for it, unless it's for maharaji personally.(there goes 'service' 'Satsang' is listening to videos, which are Booooring! He does absolutely Nothing for society, or the self empowerment of the premies. What he can do is teach you how to become his devotee, plain and simple.... The only 'ace in the hole' he has, is his ability to co-create this charisma with the premies, and while he plays coy with it, as if he's really shy about it, he desparately needs the adoration, and milks it for everythng he can, because that's where the money is, and that's where the high, for him, is. I believe these programs he runs around doing are totally for him, NOT the premies. They are also to troll for a few new, hopefully wealthy, converts. 3)I believe that he is an unabashed liar and manipulator, and yes, you can have these charismatic experiences, and also be totally foul, amoral and deceitful, as he is. Many historical personalities have done exactly that. People have reported seemingly spiritual,mystical experiences around Hitler and Stalin, hardly 'spiritual leaders'.(I'm not comparing him to them, jsut noting that 'experiences' can some from many places.) I have heard him say that someone can have the experience he talks about, and also be doing something totally immoral. He said this in LA, and I was so naive at the tme that I didn't even consider the fact that he was probably talking about himself. 4)IMO, the great lie that has been promoted is this: When we would go to these programs, as premies, and have high experiences while there, those experiences were momentary and maharaji knew it. However, he would declare that he was always in 'that experience' and would scream at us to get there as well. This is impossible, yet he pretended to be in some exalted place constantly, and created a dependency in premies to try and be there all the time, when he knew that he wasn't, and they would never be either. This hurt so many peoples lives, as they tried to pursue a totally unrealistic and unattainable goal, and caused them to become even more dependent on him,and feel worse about themselves, as they realized they were never attaining the mythical place he was supposedly occupying. 5)I believe that maharaji's 'shadow side', is in direct proportion to the 'fairy tale' side that he promotes on stage. The immorality comes from the fact that almost all gurus create an amoral atmosphere around them, and declare themselves as being above judgement, as the master. Followers, having accepted the 'divine nature' of the guru, are scared shitless to even criticize the guru, much less confront him. With this 'moral carte blanche', the guru gets what the guru wants, and eventually begins to despise the premies in their grovelling manner, but also finds it impossible to give up the addiction he has developed for devotion, wealth and substance abuse. I believe that his drinking is what helps him maintain a balance between the two lives...however, it never works, and eventually Humpty Dumpty will fall,and all the premies will not be able to put him back again.

Subject: To la-ex From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:26:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi la-ex. wonderful post. You said: I have heard him say that someone can have the experience he talks about, and also be doing something totally immoral. Do you remember when he said that, and what the context was? Because when you think about it, it's an extremely odd thing to say. It kind of rubbishes any idea of intrinsic goodness in Knowledge and implictly gives premies (and himself) permission to be amoral. I just find the whole idea that he ever said that weird. I mean, obviously Maharaji has done a whole lot of amoral things, and so have premies, but for him to actually come out and say that one can be experiencing Knowledge and still do immoral things - what did he mean? Did he mean it's OK to do immoral things then? As long as you're experiencing Knowledge it doesn't matter what you do? God!!! I was under some sort of illusion/delusion then, that if you were truly experiencing Knowledge you would only be impelled to do things that were, um, like, OK! Sorry, I have to admit I'm totally bamboozled/flummoxed here. Please explain!!! love, Livia

Subject: la-ex excellent... From: Bolly To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: A good bunch of answers, La-Ex [nt] From: Neville To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:50:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Excellent post, la-ex - 5 star [nt] From: Marshall To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:32:14 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: o

Subject: a must-read post from LA-EX! (NT) From: The Falcon To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: AV To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:08:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bris, no....not a crock of shit, those are the feelings I lived for too; I never really swallowed the whole DLM EV thing, as soon as I got close to people who were close to M, I was spooked no end by how utterly weird they were ; hardly a regular guy or gal amongst them. But as I said before, I don't post here to tear down people, those in question do a pretty good job for themselves. There's so much I'd like to say here, who knows where all those feelings came from; even at Nottm fest where I went along after reading the postings here and EPO, and hearing for myself how ruthless M can be....'if you don't like it, WALK!!...' re his critics, still by the end of the event, those familiar feelings started to take over. I recently came across some music by a Moroccan musician on a CD called (would you believe) 'The Cactus of Knowledge'(!) In the liner notes there is a translation of an arabic poem which ends; The sparkling Has moved towards me away from the pillar and the approaching rays have surrounded me, coming closer filling my mouth with the sweet taste of rosewater My whole being is shaken and I have tasted a pleasure such as I have never experienced with any woman But to be united with the light in such incandescence my heart has had to be torn asunder. Such verse exists, certainly in the cultures of the near east and asia; particularly among the ecstatic sufis such as Rumi, who I have always found is able to shift my perspective greatly. Again, as I have said before here, the great agony is having tasted such an experience, believing with every shred of your consciousness that M is the eternal giver of that experience, and then discovering something of the nature of his own everyday life; the way he treats people around him, and less savoury personal habits. For every body involved here there are choices..... Either you believe that such experiences come from M and only M, or even if they DO come from othere sources, you don't really care, because you have found your precious Guru Maharaji, your 'Love of all the Ages', and have put a moral exclusion zone around his activities behind the scenes, and carry on regardless, believing all the EPO stuff to be some kind of test of faith; or.... you are unable to disassociate M's words from his deeds, and reel in shock, unable to separate what you have FELT, from your sense of human incomprehension and anger at what has reportedly gone on for years. or... if you never experienced the taste of those states of 'divine rapture', possibly coming along in K-LITE days,( and can thus be dispassionate enough to rationalise more easily), and after having done a bit of research , put it down to a close brush with a hindu cult that used meditation techniques to put you into a very malleable and impressionable head space where you believed just about anything that is placed before you without question, woke up, smelt the coffee and quit. So how am I dealing with it? probably a continually swinging pendulum that intersects something of the above scenarios and more besides. When I feel mentally week and exhausted, I try to sit and meditate in the still hours of the night; not neccesarily on the techniques, but to pray to whoever IS my creator, the eternal spirit, to bring me some clarity and peace. Take care, AV

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Sulla To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 07:55:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My dear don't get discouraged, the good stuff comes from you, the bad comes from him. Cry,laugh and smile.The best for you.

Subject: The Unanswerable Q From: Gregg To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 07:22:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Those feeling were real. Whether they came from God, brain chemistry or Guru Maharaj Ji is open to question, though. I'd vote for God and brain chemistry, myself. I think some gurus can nudge a student toward richer spiritual experience, but to be such a guru takes a lot of training, practice and skill. I see no evidence that Prem Pal knows anything about meditation, let alone has developed the ability to deliver shaktipat to the masses. He sits on his throne, having been installed there by family connections, and delivers platitudes. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that if one were to believe that that throne-dweller were actually a magical being symbiotically related to God and personally responsible for your state of mind, than one would probably have some pretty intense experiences of bliss somewhere along the line. I don't disbelieve in the efficacy of teachers in the process of spiritual awakening (although a frightful percentage of self-declared gurus are fraudulent and dangerous), but I see no evidence that Prem Pal has any valid claims to greatness. It is self-debasing to believe that we are too spiritually bankrupt to pass judgement on gurus. That belief is what empowers these creeps. Many of had these experiences, B, and we all have different explanations for them. Unless you have a sense of reality at odds with the facts, though, the explanations must have a lot more to do with belief in M than with M as a source of spiritual power.

Subject: I don't think it's so unanswerable From: Jerry To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:29:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry, Greg, but you seem to be holding onto the idea that there are actually spiritual teachers that genuinely have the ability to give this 'shaktiput' to their disciples. Yet, you argue that the 'shaktiput' Maharaji's disciples receive is all delusional. I don't know how you would distinguish genuine 'shaktiput' from the delusional brand. To me, it's all delusional.

Subject: Re: The Unanswerable Q From: Thorin To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:08:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Gregg I need a Guru in writing skills. Whoever taught you, taught you well. Name? Thanks for that great post. Thorin

Subject: Writing...(OT) From: Gregg To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: binduesque@yahoo.com Message: Thank you so much, Thorin. Much of the reason I post here is to polish my writing skills. That might sound funny...but, most of us ordinary people don't have an audience for our writing, so the Internet is a great outlet.Thisplacedprovidesa quick and easy and savvy audience for me. I'm an English teacher for Denver Public Schools, so writing and teaching writing (and literature) is what I do for a living. Still, most of what I've learned about writing I've learned the same way I've learned jazz piano: by listening and practicing. This summer I've been taking a class called 'Rhetoric and the Teaching of Writing' and it's a blast...the first time I've taken a real college class in twenty years...I've really been revamping my ideas about teaching. Anyway, thank you so much for the positive feedback...email me with your story, if you have the time.

Subject: Try this(OT) From: The Falcon To: Gregg Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:36:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The rhetoric of fiction by Wayne C. Booth (Penguin Books) all the best

Subject: Thanks! I will. (nt) From: Gregg To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: x

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Peter R. To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 05:40:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bris, I have been closely working on that one for months. I'm pretty certain that most posters on this Forum would say that all the good experiences came from inside ourselves, and were projected onto Maharaji. This is because we are from a culture where our spiritual models have more or less always been stainless, or perceived to be. It's very confronting to imagine that someone of amoral behaviour, or what we would see as this, might be able to impart a spiritual experience, as it breaks the accepted rules. However, in view of my own experiences, and the genuinely great power I perceive Maharaji to have had in the past, I believe this to be the case. It challenges very greatly the truth of him being Lord of the Universe, however, and generally knocks this into a cocked hat. I think we have to revise our assessment of him downwards to be an extremely flawed teacher, along with many others, but one who can give us a genuine insight into the soul. Needless to say, that would make him answerable for any breaches of the law he had committed.

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Bolly To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 14:25:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Peter R, What the range of responses and insights on this forum demonstrates is that all of us as human beings have something to share that can help others through difficult times. You say you percieved him to have great power, okay how did it manifest? When in your vicinity did he perform a selfless act in order to benefit another human being? I was reminiscing in an earlier thread with another foot soldier from WPC Regiment. When I reflected on those days it struck me how very talented skilled and thorough a lot of those people were. Marj would express a whim and hey presto the toys appeared. What Marj never saw was was the hours of dedication and application. What Marj never experienced was the wrangling with an idea, the frustration and setbacks of the creative process. All Marj got was the dubious pleasure of sitting on his arse with that aloof look on his chops we all assumed to be immersion in holi monicker ( no pun intended) Then he went of to count the dosh. Love is a shared thing it comes with a lot of aspects. I love my children (well most of the time) but I wouldn't be much use to them were I to demonstrate that by sitting on a throne with some bored expression on my face. Love is a word used a lot in our culture and covers a multitude of sins. In the past few weeks loving football has been very popular next week it's still the tennis for people who love sport. Well I look at some of the people who love sport, they love watching other people performing in the sports arena. Yea, we loved Marj maybe? Marj loved being the recipient of our attention, always slightly out of reach ( did I mean out to lunch?) The truth is there was no power that didn't come from the GOOD people around him willing to sweat and lose sleep to create the marj ambience. If you have experienced great power it is you, just like when you experience getting drunk feeling low or tired. What happens in your life in your psyche your head is yours alone. Some of it will resonate with the experiences of people around you. Yours being myself Bolly

Subject: Re: The big Q. From: Jerry To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:46:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think we have to revise our assessment of him downwards to be an extremely flawed teacher, along with many others, but one who can give us a genuine insight into the soul. I would say a genuine insight into the soul includes what our instincts tell us about those experiences. Mine tell me the experience came from within me. If I didn't believe in Maharaji the way I did, they wouldn't have happenned. Do you agree, or do you think that Maharaji can impart an experience to any stranger he may come across who has no idea what people are saying about him? I mean, what do YOUR instincts tell you about your experiences and Maharaji's part in them? I mean your deepest instincts, what you really, really believe is the truth because, ultimately, that's all we've really got to go on.

Subject: The good stuff came from you, Bris From: JHB To: Bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 05:28:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All the good feelings were our good feelings. We just allowed ourselves to feel them in the situations Maharaji set up. The feelings of joy experienced by Christians or followers of other Gurus are no different. It's the belief that such joy is possible, or even expected, in these situations that makes it possible. And they said it wasn't a belief system! The stories about Maharaji being a heavy alcohol drinker for many years have been confirmed first hand by Mishler, Dettmers and Donner, and others. They have never been denied by Maharaji or anyone associated with him. Keep on turning those stones over! John.

Subject: JHB: This thread is a great example.. From: la-ex To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:27:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of a thread that can really develop into something valuable for EPO. When good questions like this are asked, they produce good, thought-provoking answers, which can stimulate things in premies and exes alike. I think that good stimulating dialogue like this is what is at the heart of the forum, at it's best. And the best of the forum creates a better and more effective EPO site. Stuff like this can: 1-help exes understand their past journey with the maha better.... 2-help new exiters in their journey away from the maha... 3-stimulate thought and doubt in the minds of premie lurkers. I think that premie lurking would increase with more questions like this, because they are real questions that premies probably have, and this is the ONLY place where they can be talked about. Premies might realize that they have more in common with exes than they thought, and might listen, stay awhile, and think a bit more about these things... 4-Do you think some of these great 'Q&A' threads should be under the 'questions' section on the EPO homepage?

Subject: This must-read thread is priceless therapy (NT) From: The Falcon To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: **** Best of Forum **** flag From: Jean-Michel To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 14:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: xxx

Subject: A question to premies and exs From: TP To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:43:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many of you who were premies in the 70s actually applauded what Fakiranand did then? Please be honest.

Subject: No one I knew liked it at all. [nt] From: bill To: TP Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:51:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: sorry, but no way From: Livia To: TP Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember hearing about it and being totally horrified/mortified. I put it down to Fakiranand losing control and doing something that he thought would please Maharaji but got it horribly wrong. Naively, I never dreamt for a second that he may have been taking orders from above, which has been surmised but nobody knows for sure. We were told at the time that Fakiranad had been sent back to India, and a year later we heard he had gone over to Bal Bhagwan Ji's camp. So it was like: 'no surprises there, then - the guy was obviously a nutter.' So, sorry to disappoint you, whoever you are (who are you?) but, no, I didn't know anyone at the time who thought what Fakiranand did was anything less than totally reprehensible. Livia When

Subject: To Livia and all who answered From: TP To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:27:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for all the feedback. I didn't receive Knowledge until sometime after the incident and only heard about it second hand from the premies I knew. Many of the premies thought it funny and that it was Pat Haley's karma. Certainly all your reactions don't mirror the premies I knew at that time. I'm really uncertain about now. It would seem(from the sample here) that most ex-premies did not approve. I only see one premie I know here(Doc) who I personally know give an answer. Anyway, I did start posting on the net a week or so ago on the Life's Great(premie?) forum as True Premie, but now a more honest translatioin of TP would be Thinking Premie. All I will say about myself is that I am originally from England and have lived in Australia long enough ago to have 2 teenage kids. I was due to return on Monday but am trying to reschedule so I can go and see Fakiranand. I am finding the EPO reading fascinating. Oh and Livia, it was an honest question and I believe I have gotten honest answers. I am not disappointed as you seem to infer. The thread above by BriS, The BiqQ is the best satsang I have seen for ages. Regards TP

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: CD To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 21:24:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think what Fakiranand did was right. The people I knew didn't think so either. We definitly thought the guy had gone overboard.

Subject: I saw M get pied From: Marianne To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 19:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I saw Pat Halley pie Maharaji. It seemed a scandalous but harmless stunt. I was around Detroit doing service when Fakiranand tried to kill Pat Halley. I was absolutely astounded. I thought there was something very wrong that Fakiranand would think it was ok to respond like this. But then I filed that incident away and thought about it again when I was leaving the cult behind. I can tell you that the Detroit ashram premies were also very upset and distraught about this event. Marianne

Subject: From 1975 on... From: Cynthia To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 18:35:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got to the satsang place around late August 1975. I got hooked in two days. I especially liked that everybody had to take their shoes off at the door. Made great sense to me although it stunk out front in the mudroom. Yewwwww... So a lot about the holy family split up, the Fakiranand thing was watered down. People laughed about it. I never had a clue that Pat Halley was hurt to badly and left for dead. All I know is Fakir. retaliated after Halley pied Maharaji and then (sniggers, and lots of them) they got Fakiranand Ji out of the country Real Fast! As recently as 1997 as I sat around the kitchen table with some Vermont premies the story was still distorted, waved off, and laughed about. It wasn't until I discovered EPO and Halley spoke about what really happened that I knew the truth. I'd bet it was that way for a lot of premies. It was horrendous. But, I didn't know the truth.

Subject: Horrified...... From: PatD To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 16:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....but I knew it didn't have anything to do with the Lord of the Universe. Not really.

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Neville To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:52:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can remember the incident being reported in quite sorrowful tones--the attitude was that F was way out of line. Neville

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: cq To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:42:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Applauding Fakiranand's attack? No, but, in all honesty, I do remember feeling that this guy, Pat Halley, had committed a crime (by pieing the Maha) that would mark him out in history. After all, (as my indoctrinated thinking went at the time) you don't get to humiliate the Living Lord and get off scott free. I guess I somehow tried to justify the ferocity of the attack on Pat Halley by comparing it with awfulness of his 'cosmic crime'. (That was back in the days when I beleived in the concept of karma). Lesson to be learned? I guess that sticking up for what you believe in can sometimes lead to compromising your integrity. How else could any of the old-time premies still be stuck with the Maha's many U-turns over the years?

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Sulla To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never knew about it, if I would have heard about it I probably wouldn't believe it or would think M didn't have anything to do with that and forget it. It was long before I received k ('81),though my brother had received it in '72, plus you wouldn't believe how many stories we heard about M and premies in the USA and India, a lot of them were incredible and changed from mouth to mouth, at the end you might think that the story could be true or not or maybe distorted, they become kind of legends that nobody really beleives or not believes, like talking about ghosts, you like the creepy feeling you get at the moment and then you forget it. We didn't have first hand information, maybe the oficials knew, but they would not talk to us about the more serious stuff anyway. If I would have known from a good source I would leave M out of it, but never applaude what F did, I would feel and know it was wrong and totally contradictory of what I was looking for and the message and image of M. Now of course I know better.

Subject: The Infinity Factor. From: AJW To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:38:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi TP, I was confused when I heard about it. I had mixed feelings. I was a cult fanatic, who believed Rawat was 'Greater than God'. After all- why did he make the Universe if it wasn't to improve on himself? It's the 'Infinity Factor'. Multiply anything by infinity and it all goes wacky. If Rawat is God, then he created the guy who got hit. If you make something, you can do what you like to it. It's disgusting how easy it is to become amoral when serving the Living Lord. Anyway, there was definitely a feeling that anyone who violated the sacred form of the Creator deserved everything they got. And Fakiranand was a hero who demonstrated his devotion and love for the Lord by avenging him. There was a feeling that we should aspire to this level of devotion and surrender. After all, this wasn't a normal situation. Look what they did to Jesus. Well, they'd better not fuck with him this time. Then, on the other hand, there were my natural human feelings of revulsion at such an act of violence. These deeper feelings were in conflict with what my premie self was saying. In the end I fudged the issue, thinking something like, 'Maybe he shouldn't have hit him so hard.' It's a wonderful testament to the human spirit, that no matter how deep into a screwed up cult you go, your natural instincts and morality are still there below the surface, exerting a silent influence against the cult shite gets pumped down your throat. Anth, it was all a dream.

Subject: Re: The Infinity Factor. From: Sulla To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes you are right, that's a dangerous way of thinking but I also recognize it, I would not applaud it because I would sincerely knew M was totally out of it, but maybe I would if I knew that God, the one in charge wanted it that way, I would think every thing was under control, and I might not feel even a little rejection and pain inside, as you may feel when you realize for example that your father who always was a good example for you is doing something veeery bad, or worst if he wants you to join him. But not, I think I might not applaud it, I would feel the same revulsion as you felt, and also appalled, discontent, uncomfortable, sad. It is hard when you find out God values are not as high, and don't meet yours. But what would be the difference between then and now? Would I leave him as I did now, why not? why wouldn't I do it then? Maybe I wouldn't, and end up thinking as you did that he might have hammered him too hard, Ha, Ha, so funny. After 8 months to leave him I'm having flashes in which M's face appears smiling in my head, and I kind of feel good for a micro instant, and rejection and pain after I realize it. Sometimes I have flashes of that infinity factor you are talking about, would you believe? how tricky is our mind, now it's working in his favor, but at least after all I have learned something good out of k, not to pay attention of that kind of mind, not to allow the flea become an elephant. If not I would start believing again that M is God, and that he is above good and bad, and that he can do whatever he wants with his life and mine, that he is out of judgment, that he can break my heart as he wishes, that I have to fight and struggle with myself in not allowing, suppressing and not believing my own feelings, my own discernment, the voice of my own conscience which is the guardian of my own soul, my own self, my sanity. That part God may be asking me for in the day of judgment, if he is around somewhere, and as wise, righteous, just, all loving, merciful, etc., as most of us learned and for whom most of us were waiting for. Any way I got to the conclusion that even under the most remote possibility that he could be God, I wouldn't want to follow him, and he would have to accept it as the right thing to do, a kind of a time of judgment in which we all pass the test. How bizarre, but these things pass through my mind, but even though sometimes it's not that easy, it's possible to get rid of M nightmare most of the time. ______________________________________________________________________ Anth, I was missing your posts wondering what might have happened to you.Then I learned about your mother, I'm sorry, I'm sure she was happy to have you and her loved ones close to her. Sulla

Subject: Re: The Infinity Factor. From: AV To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:18:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remeber a wpc guy interviewed on us tv at the time was asked what he would do / have done to the / any culprit who would assault M with a pie, he said 'I'd slit his throat'.....

Subject: I know the guy AV. From: AJW To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He's in the Lord of the Universe movie. (Have you seen it? There are a few copies knocking around somewhere on video.) Anyway, last I saw of him was about 15 years ago, in South London. He used to practice acapuncture. I don't know if he's still in the cult. Peter's still into inserting bits of metal into people 'tho. Anth Ying Yang Thank you Ma'am

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Thorin To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:23:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I first heard about this incident (sometime in 1973 I think) it was much discussed and the overwhelming feeling that it was simply atrocious. However facts were very much thin on the ground then and we could only speculate on what really happened. Like good premies we felt great sorrow that Maharaji had to put up with such a creep and that F had every thing coming to him. Had we known then, as we do now, that there was an organised and well executed plan of sheilding and getting F out of USA by top honchos of DLM (and possibly including M and RJ, which I guess we will never know) then I am sure that many premies would have woken up and left in droves then. This incident, like many others, stinks and I hope that more people in the know will find the courage to speak up and tell the world what they know. Even those people that were directly implicated in the cover up should have no fears as the statute of limitations has long since passed. I guess some premies may have appluaded what Fakiranand did to Halley, I never met any and I am glad I did not meet any. Thorin

Subject: Thorin, really sorry From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:32:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to disappoint you, but I was one of those who applauded Fakiranand. I was not a premie at the time but heard about it in 1974 when I got poked in the eyes. For what it's worth I wasn't in a minority of the premies I was with. Maharaji was presented to me as God-incarnate, the Father coming to stop His children getting burnt..etc. Yes I believed it all and would have done absolutely anything for him. Whatever else maharaji may be, he isn't a Charles Manson. If he was I know that myself and many others would have done unspeakable things and would either be dead or in prison today. I am not proud of that but that is the way it was. Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, really sorry From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 08:00:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Jethro Oh well, guess I led a pretty sheltered life. Cheers, T

Subject: I was utterly appalled (NT) From: The Falcon To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:32:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: DevoteeDoc To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:16:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well at the time I was a high rise gormless dreamer thinking I was swiftly climbing the ladder to heaven. So God only knows how I would have reacted to something like that in front of me in the real world. I was very shocked on hearing about it. It seemed very excessive to me. However, my WPC supervisors, knowing they had a space cadet on their hands, kept me as far away from the real action as possible, right at the back of the Millenium Astrodome doing twelve hour 'security' shifts in the miles of bare, sterile concrete corridors. Once I bumped into Raja Ji who looked at me with a 'What the fuck are you doing here' glare, which greatly added to the paranoia and insecurity I was experiencing due to to almost total lack of sleep and having to live in a coca cola factory segregated from the girls while my girl was somewhere else partying and flirting with every stray guy she could eyeball. Ah yes, that festival was all love and roses for me! But at least I got to play some guitar in a band they set up in the Coke factory, we'd jam well into the night after the big gig. On reflection...how come we were allowed to do that??!!! Blissful mayhem, god only knows how we survived it.

Subject: Re: A question to premies and exs From: Bolly To: DevoteeDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 15:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Devotee Doc You must have been a lot more aware of what was going on than I was. I don't remember anything specific about it only that there was an incident. The honchos liked to think they were the divine wing of the SAS Us WPC foot soldiers were all encouraged to obey orders unquestioningly. Given that we were enabling the establishment of peace on earth and rarely slept I doubt any of us would have made a rational assesment of events at the time. I remember some people getting up a band sorry don't remember what it was like. Were you still marching on for truth when Raja had his birthday bash at the Cafe Royale? You were allowed to play into the night because they got to the page in the soldiering manual that said after a big action the troops have to be allowed rest and recreation to avert the likelihood shell shock and battle fatigue. It was a war you know. Or maybe it wasn't. Just a bunch of nutters playing soldiers. Love Bolly

Subject: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Doc To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 21:08:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I presume that you were a UK based soldier and joined us on that fabled 'excersise' on the Kent moors complete with battle fatigues and all :) I don't know anything about the cafe Royale but we had a few get togethers with RJ at Reigate where he acquited himself with much humility and deference to the big M. Yes, probably right about the band being able to 'blow off ' a bit into the night, it gave us the illusion of freedom and free thought. That period must have been a spiritual training for me because no sooner had the festival ended when a Houston based uncle of my girlfriend offered her a ticket back to NZ for $40 (he worked for PanAm) which she couldn't refuse. We tried to get me one but it was a family only deal. So...having lost her emotionally I was now set to lose her physically as well and returned to UK minus one gf. Looking back, I guess that's when I first dug deep for the treasure within and found it, much to my eternal gratitude and wonder. I guess it takes a serious jolt to really get the internal digging machine operating at full capacity. Or maybe I was just a thicko who needed a good thwack to wake me up. ;)

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Bolly To: Doc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:37:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! We must don the old uniforms sometime and take to the downs at dawn, in commemoration of a fine job done. I assume you went training at dawn running across the downs having been woken by Robbie Willox with a torch shone into your face. The Cafe Royale bash took place after the honchos, Lindus Burgess et al had moved to Westerham in Kent. Reigate then passed from being Raja's retreat for his beloved brother to being the official res. Were you there when there were aprox 150 good soldiers in residence after the service houses closed (not to save money I assure you but for Security reasons). One night as we sang arti around the trestle tables prior to enjoying a magnificent supper of cheese and potato pie the door to the cellar come dining room opened. We were on that line about save us from the ocean deep and Gwilym who was posted in the gatehouse come garden shed entered escorting two good ladies of the parish with collecting tins for the Lifeboat volunteers. The women looked at us around our white sheet bedecked trestle tables and shook their tins half heartedly, I think our treasurer Paul Burgess gave them a farthing or two. Gwilym I think was court marshalled for comprimising security. The neighbors who already thought we were a bit strange probably thought we were in a cult. It's a tough job being a soldier but someone has to do it. Salutes and polish those boots yours Bolly

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Corporal CleggDoc To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:01:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We won't woken too harshly. Mark Halliday trooped around the house at Catford at 6.30 saying Arti! Arti! Clive Holmes would smile gently and mutter ...'here we go again.' It was insane but I was quite glad to be doing anything to get out of England and away from mummy ringing up wanting to know what on earth I was doing living down in the dumps at Catford (a lower class suburb at best) with all these guru people. Fortunately she sent me a Barclaycard, so Mark insisted we all go and buy suits and new house plants which - me being 'surrendered' we immediately did. No, I never was at Reigate with 150 bods. Your story was hilarious! I used to work on his Majesty's bedroom and remember taking the beautiful blue velvet bedspread to the dry cleaner in town who was always wide eyed at the commands being given to him concerning the handling of the sacred garment. Of course we were longing to tell him...This is the Lord's bedspread so you better be careful! Gee, can you imagine a book full of anecdotes of those days? Man, don't ask me about my 'propagation' trip to Iceland with Dougie Little and gorgeous Carol from the Edinbugh ashram. What a farce that was ...thanks to Bulent Acar of Shri Hans travel who conveniently forgot to find out what we required to be let into the freezing place (in the way of cash and work permits etc). We were in a cult alright, but it was the Dad's Army of all cults! :)

Subject: Re: Ah, a fellow veteran! From: Bolly To: Corporal CleggDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:48:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So glad to hear the barracks was kept in shape by the regiments lads after my departure. Dads army is right, it truly went from the sublime to the ridiculous. I was conscripted initially to skivvy for the electronic boys I think marje had seen lots of James Bond movies and thought we needed an MI5 wing. It materialised more like MFI, only not so usefull. Will post more anecdotes on my next leave. At ease lads Love Bolly Ps. I see Mark Halliday sometimes, he still goes to programmes. More on that some other time.

Subject: You gotta be kidding me! From: ExciteDoc To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 03:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You see Mark Halliday ?/ Holy Christus!! :) :) :) :) :) ;0 Hey Bol, next time you're on duty could you contact the signals platoon and put in an urgent request to the duty signals officer..... Lt Gen DocRoup wants Lance Corporal Field Marshall Baron Von Halliday VC DSO CB to send an immediate despatch as to his station, mission and date of next leave. Thank you Sir! :(

Subject: Mahatma Fakiranand now in London From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:15:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well you could have knocked me down with a feather. I read an advert today in the magazine called ''The Big Issue'' telling me that old Fakiranand is doing a programme in London very soon. The advert reads as follows: SPIRITUAL DISCOURSE Mahatma Ji Fakiranand of Northern India and disciple of H.H Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj Speaks for one day on Sunday 7th July at The Tabernacle Powis Square, London W11 From 4.30-6pm All Welcome - FREE Tel: 0116 220 7615 Now I like to help good causes so I've given him a little free advertising here. All DIY enthusiasts should go but please wear a crash helmet.

Subject: hammering his message home [nt] From: Livia To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: anyone up for interpol? From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:16:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seems to me maybe we could orchestrate some kind of belated arrest for attempted murder in detroit if you got the articles to the police or scotland yard in advance of the program. have him arrested and charged belatedly. maybe extradited to detroit to stand trial for attempted murder on patrick halley? the statute of limitations never runs out on outright successdul murder. i dont know about attempted murder. and country by country, i don't know those differences either. Jim? Marianne? you guys deal in north american law about murder all the time. what's chances of getting some justice on this case, so many years later? conversation would be better off the board, rather than where the EV monitors can read and report back about it is probably better. use the back channels. sir dave knows what i mean.

Subject: It may not be the same person From: TP To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:45:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There were at least 4 offshoots from Swami Sarupanand and all of them used the same Mahatma names as Sarupanand Ji did. TP

Subject: Re: It may not be the same person From: The Falcon To: TP Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:36:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is definitely the same Fakiranand who tried to kill Pat Halley. He was with Satpal in Leicester a few weeks ago. And USA last year. He is the foremost mahatma in Manav Dharm now and probably one of the longest serving. Knowledge review, anyone?? No, thought not!

Subject: Please DO let us know about US dates !! [nt] From: bill To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 07:53:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks for that info, From: TP To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:49:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I'll try and extend my stay here to go see him. TP

Subject: background: for the uninitiated From: anon To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 20:56:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: r.e. Mahatma Fakiranand: translation of name: Mahatma = Great Soul, Fakiranand = Blissful Beggar Read the facts about this devoted entity and his close ties with both the rival Rawat gurus [sic self-proclaimed 'masters'] A 'great soul?' Well, at least according to the 2 rival Godfathers of the family, anyway - for whom he has performed unique 'service' [sic participation] Read about the special, synchronised participation and service this Great Soul has performed: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm

Subject: He must be a fossil by now From: Brian Smith To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 20:01:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He must be in his late 70's, he should be introduced to the tune of "If I had a Hammer" by Peter, Paul and Mary also Trini Lopez 'If I had a hammer' 'I'd hammer in the morning' 'I'd hammer in the evening' 'All over this land' etc,etc, etc somethings never change

Subject: please announce any US dates. [nt] From: bill To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:11:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: especially in Detroit [nt] From: Will To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:36:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Mahatma Fakiranand From: Richard To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:32:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It makes complete sense to me. Satpal is following his dad's example to the letter so Mahatma F would naturally take to it like a swan to lotus pond. I would love to hear what Fakiranand has to say about his former SatGuru. Whatever it is would instantly be ***Best Of Forum***. After all, he is an Ex of M isn't he? Hmmm, I like the idea of getting his comments. Anyone that side of the pond up for a little chat with him? Hey Dave, why not invite the Beggar of Whomever's Bliss out for a pint? Then you could both get hammered together!!! (Note to Non-Yanks: Hammered = Drunk = Pissed in Americanese) BTW, does H.H. stand for His Holiness, Hilarious Hustle, Hiatal Hernia or what? Richard, beggar of humor

Subject: H.H. = Holy Hammerer [nt] From: Barbara To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 18:40:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Mahatma Fakiranand From: PatD To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:19:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow,what a high octane spiritual guy.He's managed to reincarnate himself in his own lifetime.Go for it Fakiranand,you're back to square one with the brothers Rawat...next step Chelsea town hall..Alexandra Palace...il Pallazzo delle Sporte...the world's your oyster 2nd time round. Yes Richard,laughing is the only antidote.

Subject: Oh no... From: BriS To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please humour me while I get this off my chest - it's only a small matter to you readers, but this is freaking me out... I've been sifting through all the old posts here, and I've found several references to collection bins, sacks etc in darshan lines, from which much moolah was garnered. I've been in several darshan lines, and I never saw anything like that. You mean I was supposed to give money as I passed down the line? I NEVER KNEW THAT. Why did nobody tell me? This is so embarassing - I know I'm a bit slow, but this is too much. Ok, so I never had any money anyway, but now I've missed some golden opportunities to shower myself with guilt. What else have I missed? BriS

Subject: it's true From: Livia To: BriS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Definitely true. Don't remember that they were as unsubtle as to actually wave collection bins under your nose, but there was a place before you went into the tunnel where you were obviously supposed to put envelopes containing money. The reason given was that people were giving stuff like toys, old valued possessions, fruit, whatever, and it was all piling up and they didn't know what to do with it. So money was deemed to be a lot more practical. Hmmm. Livia

Subject: Welcome aboard, and.... From: Bryn To: BriS Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:58:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check your emails for one from me.

Subject: The Lord Prefers Cash. From: AJW To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:55:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BriS, How long is it since you went through a darshan line? In the 70s, people used to bring all sorts of gifts, as they queued up to slobber on the lostus feet. But things changed, and it became known that 'The Lord prefers cash.' After this, hoards of instructors, initiators, or whatever they were called at the time, would offer handfuls of envelopes to people in the queue. Then, just before entering the Holy Darshan Room to kiss the feet, you handed over the envelope, now containing some of your cash, to another instructigator, who would usually drop it into a large box where it would be taken away to do the Lord's work. Because, as we all know Bris, it is in giving that we receive. Anth, can I have my money back please?

Subject: Re: The Lord Prefers Cash. From: BriS To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, this has certainly opened my eyes. It's a very long time since I walked the line - Rome or Wembley in the mid '70s I think. Nobody offered me an envelope or suggested an offering would be in order. Nobody shouted 'Hey you! - You in the suit with silly grin - chuck some dosh in the bin or no Holy Breath for you, young man.' I leave you a sadder, but wiser man. BriS

Subject: I wouldn't go quite that far, BriS From: Livia To: BriS Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 02:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wouldn't go quite that far, BriS. It's true that you were handed envelopes etc, but if you didn't have any money to give, or didn't want to give any money, it was fine; nobody pressured you. It certainly wasn't like you weren't allowed down the darshan tunnel or anything like that - you weren't treated any differently at all, or certainly not as far as I could see. Just to put the record straight. Love, Livia

Subject: Not only sadder and wiser BriS From: AJW To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:18:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not only sadder and wiser, but also richer. I hate to think how many twenty quid notes I slipped into those envelopes, while we were trying to bring up two kids on a shoestring. Anth, happier, wiser, and much better off nowadays too.

Subject: Re: Not only sadder and wiser BriS From: anon To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:33:38 (PDT) Email Address: swanley@hotmail.com Message: Hi ajw I know you from another time. I would prefer to remaim anon, if that,s all right. What has happened to the lord, He has definately gonr into regression. Am i freaked, or am I freaked What does one do in this situation The idea of a fr4ee country does not exist for him any more, He should definately be stopped alltogether, as he is highly dangerous. If i new the meaning of it all it would help a little.......Plese reply........anon

Subject: Twenty quid notes From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:30:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I burned a lot of those too in the cause of 'supporting His work'. Hey BriS,you must've been one of those blissheads who went through darshan with their eyes shut. After it'd been abolished didn't you ever notice the large white cardboard boxes set up near the info.desks....the ones with the large slit in the top marked 'donations'. They took fifties very nicely indeed.I could do with a few of them now.In my mind's eye I can still see them,that beautiful reddish orange glow with the broad silver stripe elegantly offset.

Subject: Sugar pills From: Marshall To: PatD Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:13:20 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: It would be kind of a thrill wouldn't it? Having a bunch of trippers lining up to swoon at your feet, and leave some cash on the way. All the while knowing that it's just an empty farce. Sugar pills. Sounds like fun, in a dark way. You couldn't have a strong concience though, to go through with it I imagine, just a strong sense of greed, and no empathy.

Subject: Re: Sugar pills From: PatD To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:40:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think it's a mutual delusion. The guy was brought up to believe he was worthy of everything going since the age of 8. In that context conscience can't exist.Still,he's older than that now but no wiser,except in his own self interest.

Subject: Now his ego is just so massive From: hamzen To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that even when he knows it all a fraud he can still justify it. I mean he's got away with it for thirty years, it's a pretty good con, and there are still a few people who think any meaningful experiences come because of that connection with his grace.

Subject: A stinking drip From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:03:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A big drip for me was the last programme I went to in about 1996, in London. I noticed all the rich premies taking their usual places up at the front - a particular multi-millionaire sticks in my mind. And then you think about the 'widow's mite' story from the Bible. Who knows if the story is true or not, but the sentiment was beautiful - that if you're poor and only have a few pennies to give, that that means as much to the Lord as a rich person giving loads. Hard not to reflect that that idea never seemed to cut much ice with Maharaji. If you had lots of money and gave it, it didn't matter what kind of devotee you were - that place up at the front was guaranteed. Even if you gave lots and still kept lots back for yourself. If you had little, gave a little but which was a lot for you - sorry, no place up at the front for you. The implication there being - well if you can't give a lot then go and get yourself a better paid job so you can give a lot - otherwise it's the back of the hall for you! It stunk, it stinks and it always will stink. Livia

Subject: Subtle tricks of the mind From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:54:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is a great debate going on at LG and would recommend reading it. In the spirit of transparency and fairness I won't interject with my own comments and opinions. Click here .... www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=15800.410943487258

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mind From: Neville To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:53:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subtle tricks of the mind...e.g. when you experience perfectly normal, random events and start attributing them to the law of karma. Neville, who knows his basic Carl Popper

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mindless From: Marshall To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 11:49:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Thanks for the link, Thorin. I think Will makes some very wise comments. Deborah is as angry, belligerent, and confus-ed/ing as ever. Roupell is predictably repellant. Very entertaining.

Subject: Re: Subtle tricks of the mindless From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:16:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall, How are you? Sometimes people try to be so smart but they are so ignorant. I read a bit of that thread and noticed the reference to the Beatniks. Well, the original beatniks were in SF long before the 70s actually the 50s. LOL on you know who 'D.' So, I guess I have to tell my beloved hubby, who loves the beats that he's 'stuck in the 50s!' Most of the beats were from my parents generation! Philip Whalen, a beatnik, died yesterday. October 2, 1923 - June 26, 2002. See link above for more beat stuff. Love, Cynthia The Beats www.jackmagazine.com/beatnews/

Subject: care to comment, esp the atheists? From: janet To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:06:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is running in todays MSNBC headlines: US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals rules that the US Pledge of Allegiance is Unconstitutional, so long as it requires the recitation of the clause 'One nation Under God' speaking for myself, I'm glad to see this. A cursory reading of the Bill of Rights will stop anyone in their tracks at the First Amendment, as soon as they see how clearly it states that Congress is forbidden from making any law with respect to an establishment of religion. Arguments have raged, down thru the centuries, about the meaning of the archaically phrased english, vying back and forth as to whether the writers were referring to 'established religions' or whether they were meaning that the State must not establish a religion, or whether they meant that the state must keep well away from making laws that involved themselves in religion at all . Myself, I would take the safe course and act as though the wording was meant to mean all three, and confine congress accordingly. I had a personal crisis with regard to reciting the Pledge in class in my senior year in High School. It was 1970, we were still deeply invlved in viet nam, dissent was rampant across the US and very ugly things were coming to light repeatedly in the alternative press, and then with time, in the mainstream press, that had pushed me to the point where I could not longer in conscience get up and robotically repeat the words I had been rote taught to repeat with the teacher every morning of my school ife. I was demoralized. I had lost faith in my government. I Had learned to think for myself and I couldnt just go along to get along anymore. And on a hot summer morning, weeks before graduation with honors, I looked about me in homeroom and suddenly realized I couldn go through with it even one more time. And I sat down, mute, while i watched everyone else murmur the words without conviction or mental presence. My sitdown strike got the attention of the teacher. She was consterned and perplexed. She came over and wuietly asked me whay I hadn't stood. I shrugged and let out a dejected sigh of depression. I wasn't flamboyant. I wasn't ooking to get anyone's attention. I just couldn't do it any more. Not knowing what else to do, she sent me to the Principal's office, where I once again sincerely and glumly explained my sudden failure of faith in the lifelong ritual. Luckily, I had a very cool principal. He heard me out genuinely, pondered a moment, and asked me if I could bear to at least stand up silently during the pledge if not recite it with everyone else. I had to consider. Standing up was another form of honoring it, and I didn't feel I stood with those anymore. He asked me if I would do it to keep the peace. I still wasn't sure. He then asked if I had some secret, private vow that I could make in my heart during that time, and if I would agree to stand during that time and use the occasion to make my vows within myself while I stood. That seemed amenable. It gave me something constructive to chew on and sweel on during the minute when everyone else was saying the pledge aloud. And I spoke to my friends about it, and it triggered a number of intelligent and equally troubled and articulate conversations among us in the closing days of our secondary education. But this issue--religion and the congress and the constitution--never came up as a subject among us. I know I could not have conceived of taking the public risk to defy the classroom, the teacher, the principal's office, the school board, and the alienation from all my schoolmates, to ever attempt to go against the grain in younger years. This man who brought the suit is an atheist doctor in San Francisco. He filed it on behalf of his daughter who has just entered school. And while his suit was dismissed in the first court, the appeals courtsnagged it and pulled it back in and said he had a very real case. And they found in his behalf. predictably, Bush and congress knee-jerk condemned the ruling, and promptly sent their lackeys scurrying to try to get this ruling overturned. The ACLU, however , solidly applauds the ruling and stands planted to defend it. The politicos act like the pledge was handed down from God, graven in gold on magical tablets. They are plug ignorant that it was penned as a little filler in a little known family magazine in 1954, and was brought to light at the height of the Cold War, when Godless Communists threatened Our Way Of Life, in the McCarthy era, and that congress seized upon it as a charming little homily to illustrate how cozy and strong we all were, and promoted it until Eisenhower blessed it as official. The words 'under God' were not in the original. They were added later. So memory is short, and understanding is scarce. Freedom is absent, if you inculcate your children from day one in public school to mindlessly recite a pledge to things they do not have a choice to reject, refuse, or take alternative to. I'd like to hear from you atheists on this, as well as everyone else. I hope this is pushed forward and wins to the last. I would personally like to see it taken out of circulation entirely. Pledge ruled unconstitutional www.msnbc.com/news/772714.asp?pne=msntv

Subject: an oxymoron From: anon To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:25:48 (PDT) Email Address: LBrandeis@dceased.com Message: According to the 9th District Court, the 'under God' phrase in the pledge of allegiance is establishment of religion and therefore unconstitutional, but according to the Republican majority on the U.S. Supreme Court, doling out collective tax money as individual vouchers to support private religious school education is not establishment of religion. Now, that dog don't hunt! [translation: Go figure!]

Subject: The Almighty Flag From: Gregg To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 08:13:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice story, Janet. I am still called upon occasionally to make the Pledge, although I don't have to make my students say it, and I'm extremely uncomfortable with the whole thing. The 'under God' clause has always struck me as an unconstitutional infringement, and I've never heard the Pledge recited without it. But the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a flag has the whiff of facism about it. Yeah, I know, we're supposedly pledging our allegiance to the ideas of freedom and so forth, but that's not what the Pledge says. There are a lot of things I truly love about this country, especially after having lived abroad for a time, but forcing kids to pledge their hearts and minds to a flag isn't one of them.

Subject: Re: care to comment, esp the atheists? From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:53:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Janet, I also refused to say the Pledge when I was a senior in high school but no one ever said anything to me about it. I was voted Class Radical so they knew enough to leave me alone. It was in protest of the Vietnam war. Didn't they take the words 'under God' out of the pledge in the late '50s? I vaguely remember the revision. I was no older than 4th grade, so I'm not sure. I don't like the idea of any pledge in schools. It smacks of forced or conditioned patriotism IMO. It's about the children for me. The Congress and Senate have clergymen who say a prayer at the opening of each session. The Supreme Court also has a prayer and says the pledge before Court Sessions. I'm pleased with the ruling but doubt it will stand. I heard a Senator complaining about it on tv yesterday saying that maybe those judges should not accept their pay because 'In God We Trust' is written on the dollar bill. It got me to thinking about having that on our currency. I think the 'In God We Trust' refers to the actual money! I know that's not the intent, but I think that's how things really are and always have been in our country. Our Founding Fathers were not saints. Many were slave owners and were very concerned about preserving their own 'property,' during the debates about wording of the Constitution. Lots and lots of politics went on back then, too. The political pundits already are talking about how this is a good thing for the next presidential election (for Bush) so I kind of wish the courts had left it alone. Plus, the Supreme Court decided our last presidential election, so I don't have must trust in them at all. They'll reverse it, I'm sure. It's too bad, but I think that's what will happen.

Subject: I read somewhere that the 9th Circuit From: Dermot To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Court is one of the most liberal and one of the most 'over-ruled' in the US. I'd bet your bottom dollar( always best to bet with other peoples money:) ) that this decision won't stand for long. Heck, Americans trust God so much they tell him so on their money bills:) Nah too many monotheists in the land of milk and honey for such stuff to be tolerated :) Cheers -Dermot

Subject: Under God From: An American To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:57:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ruling did not declare the entire pledge unconstitutional, only the phrase 'under God.' Congress added those words in 1954 in the height of the dark, sad witch hunts of the McCarthy era. People believed that those words could root out Communists because Communists would refuse to utter them, being that they were godless atheists. Great motivation and very patriotic, right? It was during the same period, the 50s that 'in god we trust' was put on the money also as a stance against godless communism. To see American politicians lining up on the steps of the Capitol to recite the pledge and express their outrage at the court decision is sickening. It's such an easy political lob. You can act patriotic, pontificate about it and it costs nothing, either fiscally or politically. The ninth circuit is the most liberal, but the judge who wrote the opinion was appointed by the conservative republican, Richard Nixon. To hear Bush rant on about judicial appointments is a little hypocritical, seeing as his Dad (Bush I) was head of the Republican party when Nixon was President.

Subject: Hey, that's my beloved court! From: Marianne To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:05:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot: The 9th Circuit is the federal appellate court which has thrown out the death sentences and convictions of my clients. I happen to think they are great. The judge who wrote the opinion is actually more on the conservative side. Marianne

Subject: Re: I read somewhere that the 9th Circuit From: Jerry To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 13:20:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The phrase In God We Trust that you see on American currency came about around the same time the words 'one nation, under God' did in the pledge of allegiance, sometime in the mid 50s. It was America's way of saying we're not like those godless communists. It was part of the Cold War. Before In God We Trust, the motto on American currency was E Pluribus Unum. Don't be surprised if there's a return to that motto. There's talk about printing up new money, this time different colors for different denominations. I wouldn't be surprised if the motto In God We Trust is replaced with the original if enough fuss is raised over it. On the radio today I heard Bush say that it's from God that Americans have their inalienable rights and it's people who understand this that he will appoint as judges. So much for a separation between church and state. Interestingly, it was the clergy that originally recommended such a separation because they figured the church was more qualified in the saving of souls than the government is and didn't want them getting their grubby, secular hands on the church's business.

Subject: Experiencing god directly face to face From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 00:41:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Links for those of you seeking all the truths available about god experiences, not just beliefs about Links for those of you seeking all the truths available about god experiences, not just beliefs about Wanna meet god face to face without any intermediaries such as gurus etc? It's all in the brain, I'm sure those of you who wanna believe in god will say he put these brain connections in place This one is a fine tuned personal account using the persinger concept http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/neuromag.htm Wanna meet aliens? http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa041299.htm http://www.singmind.com/singleminded/favorite/orthodox.htm persinger magnetic helmet searched for in google produced 145 responses persinger home page in google produced more science based links but can't find his home page yet As you'll see Michael Persinger is the fella that has been doing this research for years on neurotheology and for nede's and rebirth http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/rebirth.htm

Subject: Earth calling Hamzen. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:16:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hamzen, Don't you think it's time you got yourself a nice, healthy hobby, or took up a sport, or pastime or something. All this involvement with the persinger concept, and trying to meet aliens in your magnetic helmet is going to end in tears. You mark my words. Fishing is quite fun this time of year. Anth the cheese and pickle butty.

Subject: You're nothing but a cold hearted killer From: hamzen To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:03:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fishing huh, you murderer. Heh you up in london on the 13th July. The RU are running a sound system marquee at a local community festival 12-5. Lets get you grooving a bit and get some of that excess off yer waist!

Subject: 13th July. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Which year are we talking about here Ham'? I never knew you were into Rugby Union. Anth, and what year is it now?

Subject: Macropsia From: Gregg To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 08:27:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting link, Hamzen. Not my cup of chai, but I did learn one thing...about macropsia, the illusion that things are much larger and much further away than usual. I used to get this at night, as a kid, quite a bit, and I thought I was the only one. It's very very strange, and not a little scary. Turning on the lights usually made it go away. I've had it a few times as an adult, too. Now it's more cool than scary.

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AV To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 11:39:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: shit, I used to get that too,(when about 6 or 7), had forgotten all about it...

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AJW To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:21:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gregg, Of course things are further away than before. The Universe is constantly expanding. This is a scientific fact. I personally have grown several feet in my lifetime. Also, soft drinks at the cinema are much larger than they were in the 50s. The evidence speaks for itself. Anth, expanding in all directions.

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: Neville To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:49:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I still get macropsia now and then and I like it best when it affects...well...a certain bit of me...you know... Neville, who needs all the relief from envy he can get

Subject: Re: Macropsia From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:17:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I remember getting it as a kid when I went to bed. I used to love it, and try and repeat the experience the next night. I'd remember what I'd eaten before I went to bed and eat the same thing. It never worked. I didn't know it had a name until I read this thread. Anth, a natural born tripper.

Subject: Re: Macropsia - michelin man? From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:21:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I used to have this experience when I was a kid where I felt as if my head and sometimes my whole body were expanding. I called it the 'michelin man'. Do you all mean this? I got it again when I started meditating. Livia

Subject: to LIv From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 09:41:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No Liv, you really WERE expanding!!! it's called flatulence!!! AV, who eat too many chickpeas. (((((x)))))) :) ps did you see Glastonbury 71 on Beeb 2?

Subject: my alter ego, David A. is SO far out.... From: Andy Daverdson To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:27:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just look over on life's great and David Anderson will continue to amaze you.... Amongst other thngs, David now tells us that there is 'great interest' in m and k in the world these days, only it's not a 'group thing', but it's totally 'personal, on an 'individual basis'.. (I'm not sure how David knows this, but he continues..) He also assures us that the world can change 'one person at at time' through the 'powerful tool' of K. And he proclaims that m has 'grown up' and has now figured out what works and doesn't work....in fact, it's totally different than just a year or two ago... I wonder how David A. knows all of this, and I wonder why the cult numbers are dwindling, donations drying up, and people are reassessing and leaving or stepping back more than ever before... (I think David A. should cut off that 2 foot gray pony tail, leave the 1970's behind, and join the real world.... Hmmm...wonder what Andrea E. thinks...)

Subject: Old friends From: BriS To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:11:40 (PDT) Email Address: bris@lgs.leeds.sch.uk Message: I've just stumbled upon this forum, and I've noticed a few names continually cropping up, among them Ron Geaves and Jonathan Cainer. Readers may be amused at a a happening which connects them. In the mid '70s, in a hotel in North Leeds (UK ) a public meeting was held. One of the Satsang sharers was Jonathon (then living in Leeds). While he was speaking, I became aware of someone entering the hall and standing at the back. Jonathon remarked that 'Satsang is not just in the words; something ineffable is transmitted also', or words to that effect. Suddenly, the figure at the back strode down the aisle, clad in long black raincoat and flowing white scarf. Ron Geaves (for it was he) cried 'Stop! It IS in the words! Stop talking nonsense!' He followed up with a furious diatribe and consigned Jonathon back to the audience. The event continued with a somewhat subdued ambience. Ever since then, he and his colleages also present have been known locally as the 'Divine Gestapo' although committed premies do not, of course, refer to the matter.

Subject: BriS? Is it you? From: Bryn To: BriS Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:54:47 (PDT) Email Address: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com Message: I think I know your true identity BriS! Why not put me right with some ambiguous confirmation? Or email me at the above address. I remember the above event too! Dark days as far as I am concerned, now escaped as of two years. What a pile of utter psycho-shite we slung around at each other in those days (me included of course). I guess it still goes on in a way, or is it 'all different now?', How? Love Bryn

Subject: Re: BriS? Is it you? From: bris To: Bryn Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 04:25:39 (PDT) Email Address: bris@lgs.leeds.sch.uk Message: Colonel Bloodnok! We meet again! Yes Bryn, tis I - and I never tried to hide my identity - bris is my username at work, so I use it everywhere. Good to hear from an old friend - especially from the 'old' days. I wouldn't say I'm an ex-premie yet - maybe an 'exiter'. If you knew the details of my coming to K., you'ld understand why I have a commitment I can't just throw away - to do with a life & death situation. If you want me to bend your ear about it I will someday, but I don't want to bore anybody. Lets just say I try to listen to all sides of this dispassionately, and wait for inspiration, from whatever source. I got an e-mail from John Brauns this morning - remember him? Reminiscing with him brought a lot of good stuff to the surface - all those mad times & people - 'Bongo Billy', Harry the Horse, dressing up as medi-eval minstrels for a Rugby Club dance, singing 'Satgurudev' at the Swan with Two Necks (!) Happy days indeed. Is it different now? For me it is - the world is a darker, more hateful/hating place. Maybe there's a light at the end of the Tunnel, but it won't be a Darshan tunnel. Love from your old-time pal Big B

Subject: Yes and... From: Bryn To: bris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 04:24:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...we did 'twameva' as a slow waltz later at the same Rugby Club gig. I really thought I was changing the world singing devotional songs in the presence of the great Eddy Waring!(remember him?) True! Enough. See you on the emails. Love Bryn Love Bryn

Subject: you sang arti to Eddie Waring-youworry me! (nt) From: The Falcon To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:10:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Old friends From: The Falcon To: BriS Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:36:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Black raincoat? white scarf? call the fashion police!

Subject: How about some old Actonians chirping up! From: Jethro To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:30:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falcon I used to be in Acton ashram with Ron G and others. When I moved in they had several books on nazi regalia and were really really into the Godfather, which was often given as an example of devotion. Jethro

Subject: Acton ashram From: Mike Finch To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in the Acton ashram for a while, and I think my stay overlapped with Ron's. I can't really be sure though, as my ashram memories have all coallesced into one long surreal saga. -- Mike

Subject: Mike Finch ? From: Jean-Michel To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:38:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would you email me please ?

Subject: Mike ? my email From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 09:28:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Subject: Re: Acton ashram From: Jethro To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:09:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mike, We weren't there at the same times. In fact our paths hardly crossed during those years. Hope all is well with you Jethro

Subject: Re: Old friends From: Vicki To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:12:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't this indicative of what Maharaji himself did, only he did it all by his little ol' self? For years he talked about the essence of satsang, that if one listened with intellect and not the heart, the meaning would be lost and one would simply be unable to understand what was 'really' being said. After decades of that, he tells every one in the Atlanta/ Michael Nouri show, that we couldn't simply blurt out warm, fuzzy feelings, but be, dare I say, more intellectual and therefore needed training in what we said about knowledge and Maharaji.

Subject: It wasn't supposed to be the words! From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:13:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, My clear and complete understanding (being such a sychronized aspirant in 1975 and endorsed by the Aspirant Committee) was that it was definitely not the words. I can attest to the fact that if one was looking for understanding through the words that was most incorrect. It was the heart that had to listen in order to understand. Cynthia, Last time I checked my heart doesn't have ears...

Subject: Oh darn! From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:46:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last time I checked my heart doesn't have ears... No wonder all my music sounds like lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub lub-dub when I listen with my heart. And a Hearty Har Har Har ! :) Richard Heart beat www.koumis.com/sfx/heart%20beat.mp3

Subject: You liked that one, eh Richard?? [nt] From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:19:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh-so it rationalizes like this: From: janet To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 03:28:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for those who didn't really wanna take it seriously, they glommed onto the angle that you weren't supposed to take the words seriously. They ignored or minimized the words they heard. For those who took it rabidly, they glommed onto it for both the words literally, and the absolutist agenda that you did what the Master said, and didn't use your own thinking. For those who wanted just a cosmic high, they glommed onto the part that specified that it was not the words, it was the feeling, and they tuned out the words and just drifted with the bliss and the zoning out. And for those who were just too damned intelligent to completely succumb, both the words and the feelings gnawed around in their subconscious for years, not reconciling, until the discrepancies finally ruptured the surface and asserted their fundamental bullshit, where they could finally name what was wrong with it all, and leave it. ahhhhh. that explains everyone. no. wait. i forgot the most sad of all. for those who couldnt get high on the feeling, whose hearts didnt get anything from the listening, whose minds tried valiantly to live by the words and it didnt work-- they killed themselves. OK. now I believe I've covered everybody. yep. that explains it. the rationalizers, the literalists, the bhakti's, the ex's, and the suicides.

Subject: More details on Rawat's European tour From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 01:16:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the French forum: Rawat's European Tour

Subject: translation: More details on Rawat's European tour From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 01:59:24 (PDT) Email Address: brigitte@bardot.com Message: Forum II Welcome on the Forum. This forum is at the disposal of the people who were disciples of Maharaji, to discuss their engagement passed with the guru and his organization, Elan Vital (ex-Divine Light Mission). So that the debates and discussions preserve their interest, we encourage you to respect this place. Notes: This forum does not represent any official organization, and does not form part of Ex-Premie.Org , but we strongly recommend the reading of this site to you. The files of this forum (and its preceding incarnation), as well as a choice of the best articles of the forum are available. In the event of unavailability of Ex-Premie.Org, test the mirror sites following: Ex-Premie1.Org , Ex-Premie2.Org , Ex-Premie3.Org , Ex-Premie4.Org , Ex-Premie5.Org , Ex-Premie6.Org , or Ex-Premie7.Org . JM Kahn (Click on this link to write to him) is the person in charge and administrator of this forum, but he is not responsible for the expressed points of view herein. You are only responsible for your messages. As you noticed, this forum is lodged on a US system, the instructions are thus in English. Translation: Subject: All on the round of Rawat/Europe Message: 11 programs envisaged in Europe, all organized at the local level. Each person is invited to 1 conference Essential reservation. All the infos are on the national responder (in France). Number: 01 47 64 15 17 ++++++++++ Athens, Greece July 18 (Presentation of K) Augsburg, Germany July (not specified date) (People having received K) Barcelona, Spain July 9 and 27 (Presentation of K - People having received K) Geneva, Switzerland July 14 (People having received K only) Exhibition centre (Palexpo) www.event-registration.org/geneva and 0467401455 (assistance for inscriptions) French seems ' invited '. Lisbon, Portugal July 7 (Presentation of K) London/Brighton, England July 23 (Presentation of K, and people having K) 1 English program (Brighton), 1 in Hindi (London?) 'donation requested' (sic): 35 Livres.... Ljubljana, Slovenia July (not specified date) (Presentation of K) Rome, Italy July 29 to 17 hours (People having received self-K) French seems tolerated Teatro Sistina, via Sistina 129 - Rome Résa: http://www.bestway.it/conferenze/default.php and www.bestway.info (the Italian travel company 'premy') Details: cor2002@genie.it Details for French with the following address: www.event-registration.org/geneva. (it seems that Switzerland took France under supervision......) And for the places dispo for French: www.contact-info.net Plan each time to be there at least 3 H in advance, double control of safety, excavates with body (I do not talk cock). SmartCard (chart of electronic identification made in Rawat) essential of race. Aspirants: to know where you ' are invited ', to see infos by the ' local teams' Invite the tele one, the radio, bring the detonators (and cognac)! JM, who definitely is obliged to deal with all here!!!! Bibérian, what you insane??

Subject: Excavates with bodies ? From: Happie Frenchie To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:08:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Indeed, that's some details about PPR's European tour and sheds a new light on what goes on at these programs ! This is too funny !

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: Jean-Michel To: Happie Frenchie Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:27:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excavates the body for 'fouille ŕ corps'. How would you say this in English ? I'm not kidding: a French speaking ex recently reported how the premies were parked like animals and searched on their body at the last Amaroo event, and how humiliated people felt.

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: Bolly To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 13:34:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was just the gun in my handbag they were after. In Britain we welcome many people at our airports and rrailway stations with a search of all bodily orifices. It's not something that generally happens at social events, at least not in the foyer of a public place, as far as as I know. But then I don't get out much so what do I know? Interesting departure, adds a whole new meaning to within inside of you. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ? From: PJ To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:34:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Highly salacious lot, you ex-premie ladies. Maybe one more reason to desert the fold.

Subject: LOL Bolly! From: Richard To: Bolly Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 13:43:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: adds a whole new meaning to within inside of you. LOL!!! Maybe they will search for doubts and questions that may be otherwise brought into the hall. Richard, without outside

Subject: fouille au corps = body search (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:26:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Excavates with bodies ?heh heh From: janet To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:39:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think we get the idea JM. I suppose a more familiar way of putting it in english would be to state that for security reasons, being patted down and body searched should be expected and prepared for. a body CAVITY search, however would be shockingly invasive, and i would think Rawat would reserve himself a choice elite selection of comely blonde females to be personally body CAVITY searched by he himself in exclusive private cirCUMstances.[I do talk cock] !lol!lol!lol!lol! ROTFLMFAO i mean, i know this is france and all, but still...

Subject: Nice one, Janet From: PJ To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:24:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You do some good posts, don't you.

Subject: janet, sometimes you are hilarious! From: Marianne To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:00:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Best regards to you. Marianne

Subject: this is just too rich, isnt it? From: janet To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 04:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, there are so many tempting angles from which to tease this thing. 'excavates with bodies'. think about it: does it mean that they are going to try to dig up any dirt they can find on each attendee, and confront them with it at the door, and interrogate them about unacceptable things they have discovered each person did in their past, that would categorize them as being barred from attending? then again, could it refer to exhuming dead devotees, and having them transported to the event, in order to inflate the statistical count of attendance? I mean, it's grisly, but not outside the bounds of conceit, given that dead people have been reported as voting in elections in Cook County for a long time. And isn't there some phrase in the Bible that states that on Judgement day, all the graves will open and all the souls will rise to reappear before the Lord? You don't suppose this could be that day, could it?! And we are going to be somewhere else when it happens??! Now that IS something to think about. But then again, If it means a body cavity search..well, If i remember correctly, didnt they used to tell us, in the ancient yogic texts, that to practice and experience Knowledge, we had to close up all the holes of the body, in through which the maya of this false world streamed, so that we could focus inside and attain samadhi? Yes, I clearly recall them admonishing us to do that. Stop up the ears, the eyes, put the tongue back and close the mouth, to even poise between the inbreath and outbreath at the holes of the nose...and to really complete the seal, to sit with one heel jammed firmly up into the crotch in half lotus postition, to close those holes, too. Now, either they intend to really test the devotees' years of practising such devout concentration, by attempting to pry their way into those orifices, while the devotee is meditating, to test whether they have truly mastered the rigorous command of attention required to attain true enlightment.. or maybe they're actually going to conduct body contact Knowledge reviews, wherein the examiner will systematically close up each of those holes FOR you, and see what kind of experience you have when they do it. hm. or maybe it means something else I;m just not understanding. sigh. 'feuille a corps', you say. leaves with a corpse? well, after maharaji killed that bicyclist in India, I'm sure that leaves him with a corpse.. but no, it's not that kind of leaves. a corpse brushed with leaves? a corpse buried under leaves, perhaps. no... oh dear. this is getting worse. I don;'t seem to be able to grasp the meaning at all. there are so many possiblilities. hm feuille a corps. no! wait! i have it! the big brush off! yes! that's it! they will treat you shabbily and give you the big brush off! Oh, by jove! it's so clear! yes! brush you off, like the rustle of leaves,or riffling the pages of a book! ahhhhhhhhh. well. how nice of them to assure us they will treat us as negligently as they ever have. well! I'm glad we got that cleared up before the program. (tut. I really must brush up on my french. I quite got lost there for a bit.too many nuances of meaning. goodness!)

Subject: Re: this is just too rich, isnt it? From: AJW To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 16:51:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's funny janet. I thought feuilles a corps were dead cigarette papers. Closing all the orifices, you run out of digits and limbs. Maybe that's why we ended up with our heads up our arses. Anth, who looked within

Subject: Humiliations and abuses in the cult From: Jean-Michel To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is not something that should be taken lightly IMO. Ill-treatment of the premies by the 'security', by the instructors, by the various 'teams' and during the seminars is something that's a part of the cult system - brainwashing. This is a well-known technique. Think of it: premies are ill-treated whilst waiting to kiss the lotus feet, or waiting to see their 'lord', and then big daddy comes to reward them, after hours of waiting and humiliation. I've been through this too for decades. One one side EV (on its websites) is asking to report abuses, and abuses premies left and right.

Subject: Improved translation From: Jean-Michel To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:42:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 11 programs scheduled in Europe, all organized at the local level. Each person is invited to 1 conference. Necessary to register in advance. All the infos is on the national answering machine (in France). # (33) 1 47 64 15 17 ++++++++++ Athens, Greece July 18 (Presentation of K) Augsburg, Germany July (date not specified) (People having received K) Barcelona, Spain July 9 and 27 (Presentation of K - People having received K) Geneva, Switzerland July 14 (People having received K only) Exhibition centre (Palexpo) www.event-registration.org/geneva and 0467401455 (assistance for registration) French seems ' invited '. Lisbon, Portugal July 7 (Presentation of K) London/Brighton, England July 23 (Presentation of K, and people having K) 1 English program (Brighton), 1 in Hindi (London?) 'donation suggested' (sic): 35 Ł.... Ljubljana, Slovenia July (date not specified) (Presentation of K) Rome, Italy July 29 at 5 pm (People having received self-K) French seems tolerated Teatro Sistina, via Sistina 129 - Rome Reservation: http://www.bestway.it/conferenze/default.php and www.bestway.info (the Italian premie travel company) Details: cor2002@genie.it Details for French at the following address: www.event-registration.org/geneva. (it seems that Switzerland took France under supervision......) And for the places available for French people: www.contact-info.net Plan each time to be there at least 3 h in advance, double safety control. SmartCard (electronic identification card made in Rawat) mandatory. Aspirants: to know where you are ‘invited ', check with your local team. Invite TV, radio stations, bring firecrackers (July 14, Bastille day), and cognac of course!

Subject: Re: Improved translation From: Josef K. To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:08:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmm, somewhat better. For translation programs, try Trados. This is a professional one, and used by industry. If you use a cheapie auto translation one, you have to check it later. Bored professional.

Subject: LOL!! From: Jean-Michel To: anon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:17:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Too funny !! What's your translation software ?

Subject: body cavity search babel From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:18:18 (PDT) Email Address: dante@divine.com Message: Too funny !! What's your translation software ? --- A: it's body cavity search babel Alas, Bab-elan! PS have you got a better software site translator?

Subject: Maybe a pwk could explain this From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could someone who is associated with prem rowatt who is not god or greater than god or a guru or a leader, explain the following at which myself and several thousands were present: 'To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge, and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness, where even you can call upon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss.' Guru Maharaj Ji Hans Jayanti Festival, Orlando 6th Nobvember 1979(Tuesday-day) Reproduced in Affinity publication. Issue No:54 February 1980

Subject: Re: Maybe a pwk could explain this From: Jerry To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 19:35:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, Jethro, you're just so... long ago. Maharaji doesn't say shit like that anymore. Why don't you snap out of it? Maharaji apparently has, so why don't you? Yeah, it's obvious that Maharaji was a little wacky back then but like the TRUE master he is, and has always been (even if he didn't quite have his shit together when he spouted such outdated nonsense), he's now got his shit wrapped tight. All masters said the damndest things back then. You can't hold them accountable for what they said because, dig this, they're masters, and have a master's perogative to disown anything they've ever said. Listen, just don't think about it and you'll be fine. You know how Mr. Mind can be. Such a nuisance.

Subject: Thanks for that, I shall take From: Jethro To: Jerry Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 21:39:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: it that he never said that and that HE doesn't want to be worshipped like that. Silly me holding on to the past. Silly me thinking it was for life, I should have known that it was only a matter of speech when he said it was for life. Yes I'll forget about it Jerry thanks for that. Oh yes and I'll forget about all the suicides, too. It seems out of fashion to remember such things, after it is all in the archives (I sound like one those stupid Jews who still thinks the European Holocaust should be remembered,why don't I just grow up up!!!) Oh yes and I'll ignore the fact that I was told by a pwk(last year) that maharaji was appearing in multiple forms like krishna to people in the 'res' (premie colloquial term for the physical abode of the Lord). You're right Jerry, all that stuff just doesn't happen any more. I know let's go and crucify all those people who listen to other peoples' secret conversations, It seems a good point for premies and exs to get together on. In fact why don't we exs make a collection for poor prempal to make up for all rthe bad pr we gave him. He probably is the Lord after all. Truth is always totally agreeing and supporting prempal rowatt. Jethro PS to all the silent exs. FUCK OFF

Subject: Excuse me Jethro .. From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:43:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't understand your PS. Perhaps it is meant to be ironic or sarcastic but I don't know. Is this the real Jethro posting or someone else standing in for Jethro? Just wondering Cheers, Thorin

Subject: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:58:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just a bit pissed of with certain exs I know who could contribute a lot here, but never had. Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:49:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jethro Yep I know what you mean. The issue, I guess, is one of responsibility and duty but not necessarily obligation. The debate is a difficult one and does not have any absolute conclusions. Part of the debate picks up on the issues surrounding RE. At the end of the day it's horses-for-courses (sorry for the string of cliches :) ) and we all need to ascertain what we individually want to do. After all we are no longer in a cult where the general consensus becomes the required norm. I know of several exes who lurk here and who have zero interest in posting. Also know of a couple of exes (one an ex-pam) who lurk and have only done one post. Either way I don't have a problem but do choose to encourage people to post - not least, as I have found, that posting helps clarify one's own thoughts. all the best to you Jethro - you have helped many to throw of the shackles of Maharajism Thorin

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:11:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'you have helped many to throw of the shackles of Maharajism ' Maybe so, but sadly not nearly as many as I got into it. Cheers Jethro

Subject: Re: Thorin, it's me Jethro From: Thorin To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:19:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey don't be so hard on yourself Jethro - no tally is being kept Just read your fascinating insights as relayed to our old friend Andrea E. Great stuff! :)

Subject: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:32:19 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I lived in an ashram in Columbus, Ohio, in 1974, when I was 18. I shared my bedroom with two sisters - Karen and Kris, who were a year older than me. When I realized that I could not change the world from the confines of the ashram, I enlisted them in my dream of moving to San Francisco, going to college together, and living in a place where social change and being different were valued. We drove across the country that summer and landed in Marin County, just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. We lived in the shadow of Mt. Tamalpais, a place of immense beauty and inspiration. That was nearly 30 years ago. Last weekend, Karen was married for a second time. She fell away from being a premie soon after I did, as she became a scholar, mother and psychologist. She married a man who was also a premie in years past, but left that behind and discovered more meaningful spiritual and emotional pursuits. His path brought him in contact with Katie Darling. We three former ashram sisters were together that day again. We are still very close to each other but the Maharaji part of our lives is a distant shadow. The ashram brought us together but the depth of our friendship is what has sustained us over these many years. Katie Darling was at this wedding too. She saw me, with my former ashram sisters. It was wonderful for one of my forum friends to see me in this other but important context. This wedding allowed me to see myself in my long distant past and my present, courtesy of my forum involvement. Being here has been an evolution for me, and has allowed me to sort out issues I had long packed away inside. It has also allowed me to offer my hand in friendship and understanding to others who shared similar experiences. I am glad to have been a sympathetic ear or shoulder for those in need. These are my reflections this night about the value of this forum. Fond regards to all, Marianne

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Sulla To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:50:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I really enjoyed your journal, when I first got to the Forum it was (as your posts are) of much help to me.You are really to admire. Thanks a lot. Sulla

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Brian Smith To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Marianne, I greatly appreciated the warm thoughts and reflections in your post. Having met you and knowing you it is just so true of your supportive and nuturing spirit in the way you contribute to so many of us your extended forum family and friends. I want to thank you so much for the special gift that you brought back from France which you shared with me, I will never forget your kindness. I am glad that you were and are here to help me find my way out of the maze Love and best regards to you and yours, Brian

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: Chris B To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 15:02:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Marianne, you've been just that (shoulder and ear) and I thank you for it. Re. weddings, I remember Rawat telling his audience once how he was looking out of his hotel window and saw a couple getting married. He shared his insight on this with us, which was, as he looked down at them, 'You haven't got a clue.' His audience laughed, of course, (I laughed, too, when I saw the video) and looking back on it now that 'insight' and my response to it represent in a nutshell the world-view of Shri Hans, Rawat and therefore, formerly, myself. Which was that everything out there is maya, illusion, something a superior soul definitely does not mess with. Rawat's 'insight' would seem to be harmless but in fact it formed part of the all-pervading mind-fuck which would have me believe that the only perfection exists in Knowledge and that any other worldly pursuit (including marriage) is ultimately worthless. Since becoming an ex-premie I find myself becoming more and more passionate about this beautiful world and all us idiots in it who are fool enough to pursue our lives in a 'clueless', helpful, trusting, hopeful way, not least of whom I include people who walk down the aisle, look into each other's eyes and make sweet vows to each other for as long as they both shall live. So thanks again, Marianne, for that ear and that shoulder.

Subject: Wonderful post, ChrisB From: Marianne To: Chris B Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 19:56:07 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Hullo Chris -- and family. Your post is so heartwarming to read. You and your family are re-discovering each other, at long last. I am thrilled for all of you. No doubt you are seeing there is no simple panacea for sorting out one's closest relationships. But you're free to have those relationships minus the Maharaji lens that you used to see through. You sound well. It has been an honor for me to know you and other members of your family. Best regards and hugs to all, Marianne

Subject: Good one, Marianne :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:34:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Of ex-premies, weddings and a long view From: AJW To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:14:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I love weddings. Sounds like you went to a good one. If ever you decide to marry your Mexican toy-boy, let me know, and I'll rush over, get drunk and be a general embarrassment to one and all. take care love from anth

Subject: Wonderful story, Marianne From: Richard To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:42:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is inspiring to hear your story of seeing the long view of life. Our shared desire to create a better world brought many of us together. It is important to know our passions were ours from the beginning and are still with us. I have recently been in touch with old friends from before K who never were premies and some I met while in the ashram. Despite our current PWK-ness or lack thereof, we share something that has kept us friends all these years. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings Marianne. By the way, your ear and shoulder were a big help for me in climbing down off the fence. Thanks again for being there. Richard

Subject: Touching From: Vicki To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:21:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, Your voice has always been a source of calm logic mixed with humor and wit. I've admired your style and presentation. It is fortunate for us that you post on the forum.

Subject: Thanks to all From: Marianne To: Vicki Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 20:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Thanks Dermot, Richard and Vicki. I've been around the forum for a little over 3 years. Despite the periodic roiling waters, and the personal attacks from premies, I have found the forum to be a wonderful place. I've always felt it was my responsibility, once I found this site, to be there for others who were on the way out or had left. The support I've offered has been repaid many times over in new face to face friendships in the real world. It is very touching to me to hear that I have been a source of support for others. Thank you for telling me. As for you Anth, well, you know how I feel about you and Dot. Much love, Marianne

Subject: RT sings One Foundation :) From: RT To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:48:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1970-80’s followers will recognize this Sat-song by Done Foundation: The Downsize of the Holy Fame What was divine is becoming devoid Due to desires of Balyog-eschwoid. With the downsize of his Holy Fame, Traditional instructions began to wane Began to wane, began to wane (The profit speaks. Ain’t it a shame?) With the Downsize of the Holy Fame Traditional instructions were bent for gain. Maharaji has new inner plants: To place himself within aspirants! Now 3rd technique - see Master swing Long term goal: makes the cash box a-ring cash box a-ring, cash bucks a-bring (A donation thing, what would Kabir sing?) 3rd technique: He’s The Inner Dude Inflating the Knowledge for Self-Gain is Crude. Problems of berthing a plane disappear When the longing for Holy Fame appears Buy Sat Guru! I saw the line Of products designed with my heart in mind. My heart in mind, my heart in mind (VISA is fine sir, just sign on the line) Buy the Visions’ ™ Products Divine Made in America by Devoted Mind. Speaking from our hearts, yes, was the way Hours of meetings, sharing the way. Video intros now have a script Natural intelligence? Out - has been stripped Has-been a-stripped, has-been a-stripped (Brainwashed from dozens of video clips) Why are programs are cancelled today? The Premies Play Dumb with Little to Say. Parents who want their kids in this “heaven Can start brainwashing them 1 year after seven. 'Twas, “Eighteen years - and you’ll meditate But the early years he’ll indoctrinate Indoctrin-eight, Indoctrin-eight (Destiny or fate, please don’t Master-Bait!) Parents who want their kids in this “heaven Can start the brainwash just after seven. Visions ™ sells CD’s, ties, calendars- Products designed for Cult Souvenirs. The older devotees are all cast in stone When he does a dance what mind left is blown. mind left is blown, mind right is blown, (both sides are blown, when bare feet are shown) The older devotees are all set - in stone, Thousands go nuts when he dances alone. His Instructors offer the chance Of VISA deductions for Amaroo Ranch. Buy Sat Guru! Buy Aussie land Fly me for hours, give sunburned anand. Sunburned anand, sunburned anand (He walked on This Sand - 12 ounces, a grand) Sat-Amaroo has bought Premie land Fly 18 hours, and in line you’ll stand. This master speaks truths and distortions are free: Love God in your heart BUT devote to me. “Give me your love and I’ll give you Peace -He said years ago. Know Truth, with a leash! Truth with a leash, Truth with a leash, (The Palms of the Guru must always be greased) Meditation is nice over time, But devotion’s an option. So, we can resign. With the Downsize of the Holy Fame, The Resigned Lovers began to Arraign..

Subject: Definitely a Keeper!! LOL! [nt] From: Cynthia To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:05:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Eric To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:35:34 (PDT) Email Address: celestica77@yahoo.com Message: Well done , R.T. I was there for the historic recording of this beloved tome (or shall I say tomb) to the Lord incarnate. We all got pretty blissed and tranced out hanging with Gurucharanand laying down the tracks for these seemingly endless Indian melodies. Here it is 22 years later and I'm quite moved and amused by your poetic justice, R.T.. Keep em' coming!! I started out playing 'The Lord Of The Universe' at the Greensfarms Divine Light Center in '73 and made it to the big show at Guru Puja festival(that means guru worship, by the way) competing with the legendary 'None Foundation' and more than holding our own, I might add.What a long strange trip it's been.We laughed,cried,blissed out ,woke up,took responsibility for our own life and growth and walked away from it all hopefully wiser and self-empowered.....

Subject: Best of the Forum material ! (nt) From: Happie Frenchie To: RT Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:04:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: LOL From: Loaf To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:16:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I actually HAD to sing this aloud in my best mock-Indian accent ! Fabulous !!!.. such skill and wit with words the hallmark of our own dear Larkin.

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Bolly To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:15:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WOW I'm really blissed out, if I send a fiver will you give us another number?

Subject: Re: RT sings One Foundation :) From: Gail To: RT Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:59:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was contributions like this from EPO that forced Prem Pal to change his marketing strategy. Look at how much revenue Maharaji has lost in just four years. No more cha-ching (Visa/Mastercard/AmEx) for: a) zircon-encrusted tweezers with Maharaji's mugshot on them; b) lotus-etched shot glasses; c) New CD releases, old rehashed albums; d) New Videos, reworked videos, falsified videos; e) $700 framed pictures of his Lardship Do you think EPO cost Monica her job? After all, Prem Pal doesn't need a purchaser of fine Irish linen or Royal Doulton cups (I think RD refused to put their logo on the cups because they didn't want to be associated with the cult) anymore!

Subject: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: cq To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:06:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following is from EV's 'edited and abridged' version of Mr Prem Pal 'No I'm not God/and I'm Lord of the Universe' Singh Rawat's address to the people, January 14th 2001 at Oxnard, California. Anyone recall EVER hearing the following analogy 'back in the 70s' ??? QUOTE: What is a Master? 'A long time ago - this is one example I used to give back in the '70's - people would start comparing me to God. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give. Imagine a big power station. There are big turbines running in there, generating power, and then there are the cables going out from the power station, going to the different transformers, and from those transformers, distributed further. They go into distribution centers and they're distributed even more. Then they go into your city, into your little area and then into your community, and finally that power comes to your house, and, through the wiring in your house, reaches your little outlet. And from that little outlet it goes through the wires and into the bulb. In the bulb, there is a filament, and when the power goes into that, it lights up. And I would say that's me - the filament. I'm not the power station. The filament is the thinnest part of the whole equation. It is so thin that when the electricity goes through that filament, it lights it up. Whatever it may be, without that filament, there is no light. And if light is what you want, then that's how that is made possible. ENDQUOTE I was only involved between 1972 and 1975, but I swear to God (the real one, if there is such an entity) that I NEVER heard or read any such analogy. Quite the contrary, as the quoted evidence of what the Maha really DID claim a 'Master' was back in the 70s (as archived in http://www.ex-premie.org) so clearly demonstrates. Perhaps he said this after I left? Anyone care to confirm? If not, then there's only one conclusion that can be made: that he's making it up as he goes along (a polite euphemism for mendacity). I think his new converts should be told.

Subject: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 15:04:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: "It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helps the world." (Denver, Colorado; October 12, 1974.) Um, I'd like to see him explain that one away. A bit of a beauty, that one - and nothing about filaments. After all, who neesds a filament when you can have the real thing? Livia

Subject: Re: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hi Liv, M's satsangs for many years talked about 'that creator, that lord, that guru maharaji,'in a way that all those terms were synonymous for the same same thing, the living embodiment of the supreme power in human form. At times , when he talked about guru maharaji in the third person, it seemed as tho' he were talking about his father, or maybe all the guru maharajis that had ever been. The 'Its been said...' I believe is a reference to Krishna's proclamation in the Gita, that 'whenever darkeness prevails on this earth, I will incarnate for the sake of my devotees/mankind..'(sorry, can't find the exact quote..) those words always sent shivers down my spine, reading the gita that is....maybe I got some good ol' hindu DNA running around in there. Somehow over a period of time, those feelings (very real feelings too) towards a divine being, Krishna, Christ, all of that, became supplanted on M; after all didn't he say 'as a matter of fact ,I am that perfect master'?? and didn't so many of us really experience that for so many years?? Its all too painful Liv

Subject: Re: I'd like to see him get out of this one From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:28:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think for us in the West, most of whom were brought up with Christianity the 'second coming' myth was a strong hook. All those bits in the New Testament about Christ coming in the clouds with glory - it was so easy really to foist all of that onto Maharaji and he didn't exactly discourage us, did he?!! I also think that being brought up in the 50's and 60's as most of us were, with an underlying fear of all-out nuclear war because of Horoshima and the cold war, made us particularly open to the idea of a saviour coming to sort it all out. Plus we were young and mostly very idealistic. It makes me very angry, though, when Maharaji tries to lay all the responsibilty for thinking he was the Lord at our door. What on earth did he ever to to discourage it? Nothing, particularly when he realised what a meal ticket it was...which is presumably why, even with all the revisionism that's gone on, he still lets the idea that he's somehow beyond human live on in the premies. If he ever admitted that he is and always was totally human, no more or less than the rest of us, you can be sure donations would completely dry up and no one would even bother going to see him any more. His career as teacher of self knowledge would be over, because propagation would cease. Whatever they may tell themselves, the idea that he's somehow special in some way is the hook for the premies who still follow him/go to see him/propagate. Otherwise why would they bother? They could just meditate and use their time and money some other way. I expect there are premies reading this and thinking 'but I don't care who he is - I just love him, and I tell people about Knowledge because I want other people to have the experience'. Those premies should look a little more carefully at themselves. If Maharaji is just a normal human being like you and me, then Knowledge isn't empowered by him in any way. And therefore he has no right to forbid the premies from sharing the techniques with other people should they want to. The techniques aren't his and never were. And he shouldn't be allowing people to kiss his feet either. However, Maharaji keeps the premies hooked in by suggesting he does have a certain power - he says he is the 'filament'. He also says he always said he was the filament, but this is an outright lie, I'm afraid. He said repeatedly that God takes a human form and comes to earth as 'Perfect Master' to save his devotees. He also repeatedly said he was that Perfect Master. No wonder he asked everyone to burn/destroy all the incriminating literature, tapes and videos! I simply fail to understand how premies can think Maharaji's integrity remains intact when it's so obvious he perpretrated a lie, ordered his followers to destroy the evidence and then made out it was the premies all along who distorted the facts! It's quite outrageous and is certainly the main thing that has destroyed his credibility in my eyes, along with his complete refusal to deal appropriately and publicly with the Jagdeo issue. If he still has any remaining credibility in the eyes of any premie who knows what Maharaji says/said and does/did, it would be interesting if they posted here and explained exactly how and why. Without fudging the question. Livia

Subject: His answer would be From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:11:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Don't tell me what I said yesterday'

Subject: Re: His answer would be From: AV To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 06:11:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was told at Rome 25 anniversary bash, referring to the past, he said 'that was perfect then, this is perfect now'.

Subject: On second thoughts I suppose From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 00:00:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for him both times were perect in that he is still fleecing people. Never mind about the burnt out premies, eh!

Subject: what a non-answer!!! NT From: Jethro To: AV Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 07:13:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: That would really stand up in court [nt] From: Neville To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 17:59:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Ray To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:07:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think when he was asked whether he was God he said:'No my Knowledge is God, I am the giver of God'...but that is good old hindu tradition that if Govinda (God, the Lord)and your guru stand in front of you,to whom do you bow first? Guru of course coz he reveals God to you.. no big deal, just plain old hindustani talk..chilum bum bum

Subject: That's what I remember too From: cq To: Ray Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 09:45:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In fact when asked whether he was God or not (usually by a brass-necked journalist - very few aspirants/premies would have the balls to ask!) - he would respond with the old 'I can show you God' spiel. All this nonsense about filaments was NOT his usual response to the question. Of course, the possibility that he might be God incarnate (but too modest - if such a thing can be said of him - to admit it) led ultimately to the premie belief (which was widespread in the 70s - probably into the 80s as well) that he was indeed God in a 'Divine' Bod, or at least SOME form of divinity that could call itself 'Lord of the Universe' with impunity. Next time someone hears him denying that he said he was God, just ask the question: 'Why did you call yourself/allow your followers to call you 'Lord of the Universe'?'. I'd LOVE to hear him try and answer that!

Subject: Was M God? From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:54:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think he ever actually said 'I am God' - in fact, he often said 'No, I'm not God.' But he also said 'Guru is greater than God because Guru can show you God' and that the Perfect Master was God in human form 'and as a matter of fact I am Perfect Master!' You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to work out what he was getting at. Plus the total lack of objection when we sang devotional songs to him with words pointing to him being God... And to cement that - he was often closely involved in the making of albums such as 'One Foundation''s, containing extremely incriminating lyrics. He had every chance to object - but never did to my knowledge. In fact, I was even in a room once when Julia Howe sang 'Spread this Knowledge to every land - tell them our Lord if here' and he said not one word! It's a fair cop, I think. As for the filament - no, I never heard it either, ever. Love to all, Livia

Subject: only in the minds of his devotees From: cq - who partially remembers this: To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 08:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and thanks largely to his own rampant self-promotion. I guess now he's either in denial, or he got bored with playing God for the premies. Doesn't stop him from getting the adulation - and cash - though, so I guess that bit of it he liked. To think that someone who commanded his ashram premies to sing, twice a day, the song 'Arti' to him, and who can now deny he ever claimed to be God - to think that same person can get people to trust him! It's unbelievable. I guess things like self-honesty, morals and plain old human decency go out the window when you're in the Maha's world. PS the words to the first part of Arti (you know, the first song which goes: 'Creator, Preserver, Destroyer (ie Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, the Hindu 'Trinity') Bow their heads and pray to you ...') those lyrics are on EPO, but I couldn't find the words to the second song 'Twameva mata, chapita twameva ...' which, as far as I can remember, is translated something like this: 'You are my Mother And You are my Father You are my Brother and You are my friend You are wisdom You are learning You are my All My Lord to Me (I forget the next bit, but it continues)- Oh wondrous Lord My Guru Maharaji Your Grace is a river That flows on and on ... (forget what goes here) Oh wondrous Lord My Guru Maharaji From You I was born And to you now I go ... etc. etc. Does anyone remember how the full version goes?

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Bob Schmitz To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:51:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think I heard this end 70s. In this anology, being in the cult, m.s role was more like the meterman....

Subject: The 70s revisited From: JHB To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:30:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been listening to Maharaji talking at Hans Jayanti, Kissimmee, 1979, and he repeatedly declares and demands that we surrender to, devote ourselves to, and worship Guru Maharaj Ji. And if any revisionist premie tries to say that he's refering to Guru Maharaj Ji inside or somewhere else, he also repeatedly says we should obey Guru Maharaj Ji's agya, and we all know there is no such thing as internal agya, don't we? No, everything he said and did in those days pointed to him being Guru Maharaj Ji and worthy of complete devotion. Here's one quote:- Only Guru Maharaj Ji's grace is real only Guru Maharaj Ji's love is real only Guru Maharaj Ji is real The grace of this world is not real the love of this world is not real and in fact, this world's not real! When I get some time, I'll collect these on EPO, but for the time being, I'll just post the odd ones I find:) John.

Subject: any details Bob? From: cq To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:12:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any chance of saying where/when you heard his analogy Bob? (which, by the way, is about the worst analogy he could have used - every filament eventually burns out and leave everything in darkness!)

Subject: appropriate, n'est ce pas? (NT) From: The Falcon To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 08:39:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What's a matter with everyone From: Jethro To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 00:15:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he hailed himself as greater than god and still behaves so. Anyone with a brain knows he is a liar and he continues because people let him and drink it up.

Subject: He really knows how to take the peace (nt) From: hamzen To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:44:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ahha

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like him alright,probably was,I think he might have said it before you joined up.In any case it's splitting hairs on his part for what can the filament be other than the son of god. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give.etc. The part in bold has maybe been added after the fact but all the rest is the young lordy telling the stoned multitude he's up there with the big stars of religious history,JC,Buddha & all.

Subject: PS From: PatD To: PatD Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:54:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the more I think about it,yes he said that. Revisionism isn't a recent thing : his father's book was pulled from circulation in early '72,the film of early devotees likewise in '73/4. He may even have said the 'No I'm not God' bit. So what really. I can't remember any premies with theological training in those days,or indeed that it was ever encouraged later. I remember showing some of the very early publications to an Indian woman at work & she said, 'this person isn't a Hindu',which of course just confirmed me in my belief that he was above such shit. Filament=Incarnation of God. He can't spin that one.

Subject: Re: The 'Master' lies about his past (again) From: Will To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This filament quote should have a permanent home here. It's very recent and Rawat is still claiming to be the next best thing to God. He's says that he is the filament and without him there is no light. BTW, I never heard him say this 'back in the 70's.' If it was ever published, I think premies would remember it.

Subject: 'Zip, zero, nada re: filament From: la-ex To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:42:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having been around since 1971, I for one can say that I never heard him say anything about only being the filament back then. I have asked numerous premies, and none of them can remember anything about the 'filament'... One old timer who is now wavering, when he heard this, said 'it's clear that maharaji is lying to us now'....he remembers everything, and swears this was never said....it really bothered him that m would engage in this type of revisionism, and is a real 'drip' for him.... Perhaps EPO should hold it up as another example of m's lying, and ask him for the date and publication where it could be seen....

Subject: Lard's filament not working From: Gail To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:23:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah, yes, but weren't we told to surrender all our old tapes, mags, books, baragons, buttons, arti trays, etc. Is Prem Pal, the revisionist pen pal, really stupid enough to think that he won't caught in, yet, another boldfaced lie? I guess the filament in his lightbulb isn't working

Subject: Lies, lies, lies, yea! From: Marshall To: la-ex Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:21:47 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I think gmj is definitely lying about having said this filament crap back in the 70's. Just a little 'white lie' though, right? No harm, no foul? Nobody's 'perfect' right? When you really think about it anyway, what's the difference? The bottom line is that he is saying that he is unique and special and that you(everyone else on Earth) sadly are not. I went to an 'event', more like non-event, with my then girlfriend, in Longbeach a few years back, and at one part of the circus gmj showed a video of him walking along the beach with his voiceover saying 'You are the sail, yet I am the wind.' and 'you are the car yet I am the gasoline.' on and on and on with endless comparisons like these, 'You are the this, but I am the that'. Later me and my girlfriend were laughing and joking about how weak gmj's whole gig was(we had only gone to please my mother). We started imitating that retarded video, saying things with gmj's voice like, 'You are the pimple yet I am the puss.' 'You are the toilet, yet I am the piece of shit.' etc. Neither of us could get over how totally lame the whole 'show' was, especially the codependent, nervous attitude the devotees displayed with their awkward(sp?) laughter and applause. Totally pathetic.

Subject: Re: Lies, lies, lies, yea! From: Gail To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 15:17:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are the Lard, we are the solvent. Yes, indeed! You, Lard, are the greasiest of the bunch, but we ex-premies have the solvent to clean you up--it's called the truth. In the end, you will get your just rewards.

Subject: European tour schedule ? From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:34:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has it been already posted on the forum ? I'd like to have a copy of it. We intend to chase his new jet ..... unless the Lord intends to bypass Eurocontrol.

Subject: What? No visit to France? From: Jacques Cousteau To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 18:51:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No visit to Paris in the Summertime? To take his fair lady to shop for a dress, hmmmmmmm. What is keeping him from his yearly visit to France? Are the French Premies there noticing his absence from their country? Wonder if it has anything to do with the Anti-Cult law and his minor run in with the local Gendarme last year. What passport will he be using this year? The questions continue......stay tuned premies.

Subject: Re: European tour schedule ? From: Fasten your seat belt To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:37:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Event Information Europe and Australia 2002 Athens, Greece July 18 Augsburg, Germany July Barcelona, Spain July 9,27 Geneva, Switzerland July 14 Lisbon, Portugal July 7 Ljubljana, Slovenia July London, Hindi Event July 21 2002 London, England July 23 Rome, Italy July 29 UK, July 22 Amaroo, Australia September 3-6

Subject: Yawn [nt] From: Livia To: Fasten your seat belt Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 14:58:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Missing dates ! From: Jean-Michel To: Fasten your seat belt Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 10:08:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What about the dates for Augsburg and Ljubljana ? When is the last program in the US/Canada or elsewhere scheduled ? Anyone knowing when the Lard is expected to arrive in Europe ?

Subject: Re: Missing dates ! From: sleeper To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: augsburg is on july 16,a tuesday...and they charge you 120 euro to get registered.

Subject: Re: Missing dates ! From: Vicki the Travel Agent To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 22:38:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The dates that are missing still aren't posted on the European schedule. Maybe the venues aren't set or perhaps the Captain wants to keep 'em guessing?

Subject: Portland q&a session From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 06:19:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an excerpt from the Portland Community Co-ordinator Conference question & answer session in 1977. Keep in mind that 1977 was the beginning of a new era. After Maharaji's marriage in 1974 a lot of premies left the ashram and got married themselves; donations were drying up. People like Bob Mishler and Michael Dettmers had been advising Maharaji to drop his 'Lord' status but he was apparently worried that the ensuing further fall in donations would necessitate a decline in his living standards. (see EPO for details) Anyway, the long and short of it was that Maharaji decided to keep his "Lord" status and shift the emphasis to "surrender". Maharaji's response to the following question was spoken in a somewhat impassioned manner: Premie: 'Pranam, Maharaj Ji. Maharaj Ji, um, I became a community co-ordinator in Vancouver, um, because of my own desire but by default almost, and I really want to continue to do this service, but I'm married and I have one and a half children, so what should I do?' Maharaji: 'OK. In these cases I am individually dealing with them, because in some cases, you see, where - OK, I'll explain. You can sit down -you can give this question to Michael - you can give your name to Michael Dettmers so that he knows about it and he'll talk it out, but let me explain my side of the story - the way I have to look at things, OK? There is a lot of premies who would like to do that service and who are quite capable of doing that service of community co-ordinator - your service, right? But the point is: are you in any way a tiniest burden on the community? I'm just giving you a very general picture of the way I have to, like, look at things, I have to reason things. And if, say, there is a married couple, and this married couple is like a burden because he can't go and really have an outside job but he's supported by the community. He's co-ordinating, of course he's co-ordinating them, but he becomes a burden. While if you take that burden, any amount of financial support, that is, or any amount of energy being wasted there, burnt there; if you take that support, if you take that energy and put it towards propagation, towards 'prachar', so much more can happen, you know? So it's like there is that fine line. To me, we have to be missionaries, because that's what we are. We have to be freelance volunteers. We don't have to ask anything of this organisation. This organisation will ask a lot of us, and that's what we have to be prepared to give - all the way. You can do your service, that is fine. I'm married, you know, it's not like I'm against marriage, but the point is: are you being a burden? If you are being a burden, then gracefully step aside and you can do more in your community as an individual premie than maybe you can even do as a co-ordinator if you wanted to, because nothing is impossible. But if in any way you are a burden, step aside. Now, that's the whole thing - a lot of people would like to, you know, get paid - and it's just like it's such a tricky situation, and doing things like that (inaudible) I'm just individually taking care of it. And I'm dealing with every problem as individually as possible. I'm not trying to lay a flat line on that. But that is the way I have to reason things. Everybody here is a volunteer. Now you look for two dollars and fifty cents a week from Divine Light Mission - well, this is missionary money. This money that comes in is for God's purpose, it's for Guru Maharaj Ji's purpose, it's for propagation purpose. And it gets wasted on some peanut buttercups, you know? It's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. But in some cases you have to do it, where you have to pay a certain person such and such amount. In certain cases it's ridiculous. you know. Certain cases you can get by and be still OK. So, I just gave you a general reasoning of it, but that's the way it is and we'll just deal with your problem individually, OK?' So - $2.50 for a hardworking premie's peanut buttercups is $2.50 too far because it's taking money away from propagation. But spending millions upon millions of donated money on private jets and a yacht - that's somehow OK? Give me a break. Maharaji's rather passionate reluctance to allow any money at all to arrive in the pocket of any premie, whilst allowing himself frankly obscene luxury speaks reams, I'm afraid. Oh, and I like the "it's for God's purpose, it's for Maharaj Ji's purpose", clearing any doubt that might have been festering in any premie's mind. Livia

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Bolly To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 12:34:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting hey! You could never accuse the guy of inconsistancy on the cost benefit analysis. I have some stuff from a selection session for initiators dating back to 1986, three guys going for full time service one is about to get married. Guess which one was practically told in so many words he was too big a burden for the community. I'll dig it out and post verbatim at some point. The guy is persistent in making his bid and 'god' is getting quite exasperated by the poor sods lack of understanding about the financial drain he's proposing to become. Finally marj resorts to asserting that the questions are not spiritual and he is therefore unable to answer them. How are you Livia? give me a ring sometime. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:23:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly Are those tapes you have? If so it may be useful getting the actual audio stuff up on the sites. warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Bolly To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, The stuff I'm thinking of is a bunch A4 post event magazine type transcripts. It's a while since I looked at any of it. It includes a knees up in Frankfurt and a big glossy souvinir of Holi in I believe Spain. I also have audio tapes right here with plenty of dust on them as follows, Rome March 1977, English Conference April 1977 Denver Community Centre Sept. 1977 Lima Peru (telephone tape) February 1981 I was out of the loop at the inception of revisionism and did have a whole stack of them. A few years ago I realized I found listening to Dolly Parton more uplifting than this bilge. I started putting the tapes and some of the paper stuff into my charity shop donations. Somewhere I have a particularly cheesy black and wite pic of the holy couple posing like a pair of am dram wannabes. My skills with this equipment are very limited, the machine is loaned to me. I also have not organised an e mail adress. Apart from those slight impediments anyone who can use this stuff is welcome to it. I,ll have another little dig around and see if there is anything else to share. All the best love, Bolly

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 23:47:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bolly Thanks - there a couple of things in there of lots of interest. I will get a message to you soon offline. love, T

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 06:58:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Spot on Livia I am glad to chose that particular excerpt - it certainly amply demonstrates Maharaji's zeal for all things material all wrapped up and presented as somehow divinely organised. The utter disdain he shows for premie's heartfelt desires and actions is nearly beyond comprehension. When I first listened to that tape about 4 years ago it acted as a major drip for me - not at first but in the months following. Even in 1977 Maharaji was using subtle bait and switch tactics to trap people and keep them trapped in his bankrupt belief system. All premies and would be premies should definitely download and listen to this tape - it is after all their Master speaking. By the grace of EPO the full q&a session can be found via the above link. (for PC users, right mouse click on linked files and 'save target as ..', for Mac users sorry, I don't know how to do it!)) Thorin Portland Q&A Session www.ex-premie2.org/download/portland_1977/

Subject: Re: Portland q&a session From: Cynthia To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:40:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think he was being subtle at all. By 1977 we were coming out of the big 1976 'space-out' and he was losing money I'm sure. Premies were experimenting with living life more normally, like, going out to eat, having relationships, going to movies, etc. All that money we were spending on ourselves for our personal enjoyment was cash he wasn't receiving. He wanted money. Show him the money. What an insult for him to say something so crude to a community coordinator. And he does mention the fact we were 'missionaries.' I agree, that tape and many, many other of his satsangs during that time were his gearing up for the heavy devotional period, which placed so many of us between a rock and a hard place. Talk about a guilt trip...

Subject: UK Cult Fest only 35 quid. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:29:22 (PDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: Hi, I hear there is going to be a cult festival with Captain Rawat in Brighton on July 22nd. 'Suggested donaltion' is ' Ł35, but you can give more if you want. The devoted are being told to show up about 3 hours early, as there are expected to be long queues because of 'increased security'. I'm not sure if they're scared of an attack from Osama Bin Laden, or leafleteers from EPO. Patrick, are you still living in Brighton and reading the Forum? Email me, I've got a great idea, but it will take a little preparation. Anth the subliminally versatile

Subject: I live near Brighton... [nt] From: Neville To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: nrbarnes:btopenworld.com Message: What's the cunning plan? If I carried a placard reading 'Maharaji, you broke my heart' I could really confuse some people. (The ones that already confuse me with that guy in Australia.) Neville

Subject: Neville, From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: anthginn@yahoo.com Message: OK Neville, Here's what I want you to do...get as many of your adventurous pals together, tell everyone to collect loads of.. No..it's better we do this by email. Then it will be a nice surprise for everyone. Get in touch. Anth the submarinal Versace

Subject: Re: UK Cult Fest only 35 squid. From: Mahatma Coat To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 09:51:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ooooh Brother Anth Ji, I am so totally blissing out that you are completely rejecting this bastard miscreant Captain that used to haunt your dreams. This is surely a cult you speak of that is making people wait three hours, get frisked and then made to pay 35 squid to get in the door. By His Grace you will be soon realizing again that only Sant Ji Maharaj can give the peace these poor unfortunate ones are seeking from the Captain. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!!! Mahatma Coat

Subject: The first REAL Latvian nights From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:22:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn has been staying with me for the last week, and the last two nights we celebrated Latvian midsummer, 'Jani' (pronounced Yaanyi), which basically involves drinking beer around a big bonfire, and decorating the doors of the house with birch and rowan. You know, the usual pagan rituals. Anyway, I also had two other never been premie friends visiting, and to demonstrate how we used to express our devotion to our guru, we sang The Lord of the Universe. It worked quite well under Latvian skies:-) Bryn also brought over some of my tapes from the 70's, so you can look forward to some tasty quotes about surrender and devotion and other stuff that never happened. John.

Subject: It sounds sublime John... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:12:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Latvia sounds like a georgeous country. Glad you had a good time. What's rowan? I could look it up but...I'm lazy!

Subject: Greetings from Riga! From: Bryn To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:25:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I'm in an internet Cafe somewhere in your shinning capital. This land is PAGAN to the core, how on earth did you ever get dragged into a grovelling bhakti cult? I remember the 'all night long' vibes at Kissimee, they were a bit pagan..quite exciting really, but the rest?!!! Love and thanks to you and Erica, Carine,Yasep (bless him) and Edwin

Subject: Re: Greetings from Riga! From: JHB To: Bryn Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:57:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bryn, Many thanks for your graceful company. Also, many thanks for bringing the tapes. I'm just listening to one which is packed full of stuff like 'how dare you disobey the agya of Guru Maharaj Ji', and lots of 'surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji'. I'll be posting some of the good stuff in due course. John.

Subject: Check this out! From: Gail To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:56:04 (PDT) Email Address: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com Message: Something interesting: (the source of which is well, somewhere. look for yourself) If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following: There would be: > 57 Asians > 21 Europeans > 14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south > 8 Africans > 52 would be female > 48 would be male > 70 would be non-white > 30 would be white > 70 would be non-Christian > 30 would be Christian > 89 would be heterosexual > 11 would be homosexual > 6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States. > 80 would live in substandard housing > 70 would be unable to read > 50 would suffer from malnutrition > 1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth > 1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education > 1 would own a computer When one considers our world from such a compressed perspective, the need for acceptance, understanding and education becomes glaringly apparent. The following is also something to ponder... If you woke up this morning with more health than illness... you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week. If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world. If you can attend a place of worship (if you are so inclined)without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...you are more blessed than three billion people in the world. If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy. If your parents are still alive and still married ... you are very rare. If you can read this message, you just received a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you, and furthermore, you are more blessed than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all. Someone once said: What goes around comes around. Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like nobody's listening. Live like it's Heaven on Earth.

Subject: Excellent, Bolly! From: PJ To: Gail Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:18:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post. Fantastic poem! I'm going to print it off (I always print off the best few each week). Any more, please post them.

Subject: Sorry, meant to say Gail! From: PJ To: PJ Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:40:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Check this out! From: bill To: Gail Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 03:17:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The -11% would be homosexual- is incorrect. The number bandied about for a couple decades about 10% was proven to be a wild guess.

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Neville To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:41:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BTW, anyone know any better estimates for the proportion of homosexuals? I'm interested in this issue. In particular, I'm trying to make an estimate of the amount of sheer evil that has resulted from homophobia. Neville

Subject: Does this count? From: AJW To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:23:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I read somewhere that about 70% of males get into mutual masturbation when they're entering adolescence. Does this count? Anth, who likes football, drinks beer, goes fishing, and would get tattooed only he doesn't like needles (I had a traumatic experience when my hamster ODd).

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Peter Howie To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 16:04:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any figure has to be somewhat dodgy. I think 10% is a great politcal number as it can be used very easily. The reason figures are dodgy and the reason all research on sexuality and the various reports - Hite, Kinsey etc are dodgy is that while the purport to tell us about sexualtiy - in fact the tell us about how respondents want to be seen in the arena of sexuality. That is becasue there is no way of actually knowing whether what they are saying is true or not. This to me is the disturbing nature of research in this arena. When someone says they have never had sex with someone of the same gender there are a number of possible interpretations. a) They have never had sex, b) They have had sex but don't consider it sex (ala Bill Clinton) c) Thay have had sex and don't want to tell the investigator d) They have had sex but it was long ago e) They have had sex but don't any more and don't feel the need to explain f) They didn't understand the question or the language g) It was sex with a transvestite which they consider not the same sex - and there are probably many more. The trouble being that who is to know? There are many factors that are being tested/challenged by studies of sexuality - gender identity, self-image, social mores etc. It doesn't matter the question - i.e 'Have you ever had oral sex' 'Have you ever etcetcetc' Who knows and who the hell can actually check the accuracy of the responses. Cheers Peter Howie

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:07:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I wouldn't have a clue, but good luck in your endeavor. I had direct experience here in VT when the state legislature passed the Civil Unions law, allowing same sex couples to be legally bonded (they refused to call it marriage). I wrote many letters to the editors of our various newspapers in response to the sheer evil and ignorance which erupted as a result of that bill (and the arguing before it was passed). It was very ugly here at that time. There are many gay and lesbians who have settled here for various reasons. As an ally of gay and lesbians I was completely disgusted by what people were saying and writing to the newspapers. The backlash (especially christian fundamentalists and hardcore rednecks) groups actually started a campaign to 'Take Back Vermont.' The response to that was 'Take Vermont Forward.' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: PatC To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Kinsey Report's statistics revealed that 10% of the American population had experienced some form of personal exposure to''homosexuality'' This statistic was determined by a survey conducted in the late 1940s. In a ''general social survey'' administered by Tom Smith at the National Opinion Research Center (University of Chicago) in 1992 revealed that 2% of men and 0.7% of women (yes, that's less than one percent!) report ''exclusive homosexual activity in the preceding year'' The answer lies somewhere between the two. 10% may have had some homosexual experiences (usually as adolescents) but only 3% continue to practice into adulthood. However there are many ''invisible'' (mostly married men) who continue to have occassional homosexual encounters throughout life. But these men do not usually answer polls and conduct their homosexuality secretly. The figures for ''invisible'' male homosexuals is much higher outside the west particularly in Latin America and Asia. Because they are not visible they cannot be included in statistics dealing with homophobia. The most important study that shed light on the geographical distribution of gay men in the UK is the National Surey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (NSSAL) which comprised a radomly selected representative sample of almost 19,000 men and women aged 16-59 years living in Great Britain (Wellings 1994). Overall they found that only 1-2 per cent had had a same sex partner in the last year, whereas in London 12 per cent of men had had homosexual contact, the result of gay men moving to London from the rest of the UK because London offered 'greater social opportunities and more accepting cultural environments'. Peter Scott's own survey of How Far Will You Go (HFWYG) with Peter Kelley interviewed 1001 men from the London gay scene and found that 15 per cent were visitors to London, and of residents only 22 per cent had grown up in London. Around 80 per cent of gay men sampled grew up elsewhere, suggesting a massive gay immigration into London. "If these studies are representative, they suggest that half or more of the UK's adult gay population may be resident in London." American research has found similar 'metropolitan' clustering. One study (Michael 1994) found that in the largest 12 cities in the USA, 9 per cent of the male sample identified as gay, whereas only 1 per cent did in rural areas.

Subject: Peter Scotts survey. From: AJW To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 03:33:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Pat, I love statistics, they are tools for creativity. I think a very large percentage of people who live in and around Central London were born somewhere else. I don't know any figures, but when we lived in an apartment, we shared a garden with 9 other apartments. None of the residents were born in London (except my children, and two children next door.) We had 2 Italians, 1 Hungarian, 1 Argentinian Italian, 1 Belgian, 2 Scousers (worst of all), 1 Canadian, 1 Scot, and a few from places scattered around England. Real Londoners are an ethnic minority, along with all the other ethnic minorities in the city. It's a real melting pot. According to the Kinsey survey (see above post of mine, 'Does this count.'), either mutual masturbation doesn't count, or Americans wank each other off a lot less than Brits. Anth, feel the bicep, no, not that one, the one on the right.

Subject: Okay, what's a 'Scouser?'... [nt] From: Cynthia To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 12:56:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to Cyn From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:48:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Scouser: someone from Liverpool, as in the Beatles Love AV (yeah yeah yeah) :)

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 13:06:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I wouldn't have a clue, but good luck in your endeavor. I had direct experience here in VT when the state legislature passed the Civil Unions law, allowing same sex couples to be legally bonded (they refused to call it marriage). I wrote many letters to the editors of our various newspapers in response to the sheer evil and ignorance which erupted as a result of that bill (and the arguing before it was passed). It was very ugly here at that time. There are many gay and lesbians who have settled here for various reasons. As an ally of gay and lesbians I was completely disgusted by what people were saying and writing to the newspapers. The backlash (especially christian fundamentalists and hardcore rednecks) groups actually started a campaign to 'Take Back Vermont.' The response to that was 'Take Vermont Forward.' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks all. Statistics noted... [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 04:28:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: statistics for homosexuality From: Bolly To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:06:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia, I always enjoy reading your posts. I also have no idea about what per cent of the population does what with who. The last survey on retaining the monarchy in England found that 70% of the population are totally commited to the institution. They never do a survey on are we in favour of 5% of the population owning 95% of the land, though the two issues are inextricably linked. Anyway thank you for standing up for the rights of gay people in Vermont. One of my sisters is gay, and my deceased brother also was gay. England has become a more open place on all issues regarding sexuality, in the last decade. My childrens generation do not encounter the torturuos things my siblings went through in order to love and be loved. Hopefully society will go on moving forward. Love Bolly

Subject: Great! Loved the poem From: PatC To: Gail Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like nobody's listening. Live like it's Heaven on Earth.

Subject: Answers for Thorin. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:07:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, Down below you asked me, 'When you have the time let me know what you think meditation is and what is 'that experience' Some people report having deep and profound experiences when in the presence of Mr Rawat. What are these experiences? How much is internally generated by the 'experiencer' and how much of this comes from some sort of 'power' that Rotwat has?' So, first, what are the experiences? Having discovered that they are not what I was told, ie, 'Experiences of my inner self- source of happiness within, etc', I've sort of abandoned them and lost interest. However, not wishing to be seen dodging a question, I'll give you my ten Eurocents worth. Light- patterns on the retina everyone in the world sees when they press their eyeballs. Sound- blood rushing over eardrum, falling wax, etc 'Holy Name' (or whatever it's called nowadays) breathing plus mantra (so hum..) Nectar- snot. And your second question, what about the experiences in the presence of Captain Rawat. Two takes on this one. First, have you seen a royalist meeting the queen, how wierd they go? Or a big fan of a pop star meeting their idol? Or people swooning when they see their favorite singer or actor? I think these experiences are in the same class as the 'bliss of darshan'. People who set other folk on a pedestal tend to go wierd when they meet them. Anybody else got any thoughts on the subject? Anth the snotty swooner.

Subject: meditation and personality cults From: Livia To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 03:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, Speaking personally, for me the jury's out as to whether the experiences/peace that occur through meditation are 'spiritual' or physiological in origin. My mum used to say I was a nicer person when I meditated! Maybe the origin really doesn't matter in the final analysis - if it makes you feel/function/behave better, go for it. If not, leave it. Also, it's probably best to leave it for a while as you go through the process of becoming an ex - the associations are too great. Or find a different meditation. As for wonderful experiences around M, I completely agree with you. I remember once going to a Dylan concert and being completely mesmerised/transfixed by Dylan. It was at a time when I was somewhat preoccupied by him. (Sad I know, but there you go.) The feeling was rather similar to what I would have around Maharaji. He even looked oddly 'big' in he way M used to for me. On relection I now see that the whole phenomenon said an awful lot more about my ability to project than about the actual qualities of either person beyond their onstage charisma. Having understood an awful lot more about this subject over recent years, I no longer have this experience and project very little if at all onto anyone - a much healthier state of affairs. Not projecting enables you to to see people as they really are rather than how you wish/need them to be. One phenomenon common around people who are projecting onto someone is the tendency to indiscriminate and automatic laughter at the projectee's weakest jokes. It stems from an intense desire to court favour from the projectee, and is very common around M and most famous people. Amazingly, as a performer (musical), I have even been on the receiving end of it myself, which is what led me to examine the phenomenon and work out just what was going on. It is easy to imagine how continual exposure to this sort of fawning, sycophantic behaviour could distort and damge one's personality in all but the very strongest and most down-to-earth people. Note the extent to which famous people aquire drink/drug problems in an attempt to cope. M is no exception. The relationship between M and devotee and the way M presents himself does nothing to prevent this unhealthy type of relationship from developing. Looking at videos now, the extent of the personality cult is so obvious, but to those deeply involved in it, objectivity is impossible. Probably most of us here were totally incapable of seeing what a personality cult we were in until we took a step back. It all becomes clearer day by day. Love, Livia

Subject: I'm reminded of... From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: --Clapton saying musicians get into drugs because the high they get on stage (i.e. the adoration) can't be recaptured any other way... --The late Carl Sagan who pinpointed the human tendency to blindly follow leaders as one of our most dangerous weaknesses... --The late Frank Herbert, whose 'Dune' series was written to expose and subvert the human tendency to blindly follow leaders... Neville

Subject: Ally Rally From: Livia To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:30:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I took my parents along to Alexandra Palace, London, for Guru Puja 1973 (what can I have been thinking of?). My mum was unnerved by the 'Bhole Shri'-ing with the upstretched arms - she said it reminded her of Naxis 'Sieg Heil'ing. I scoffed at her and told her she was being ridiculous. Later I introduced her to a smiling premie friend of mine. 'You have to admit he seems pretty cheerful, don't you, Mum?' I said. 'Hmmm. Too bloody cheerful if you ask me,' was her riposte. I have to admit I knew exactly what she meant, but I brushed it under the carpet, as you did, and skipped off. Years later, I took my Dad to see Julian West giving satsang in London somewhere. I thought he'd enjoy it as she came over as rather intelligent, and my parents are a bit intellectual. After the programme I eagerly asked him what he'd thought. 'I counted 42 'you know's,' he said, looking about as pained as I'd ever seen him. That was the last time I ever tried to drag my poor parents along. They're both still alive, and, all things considered, pretty cheerful. Love, Livia

Subject: Brooding over England's loss, Anth?OT From: Marianne To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 15:01:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found time for the forum again now that England got its nose wiped by Brazil? Love to you and Dot too, Marianne PS The Mad Mexican is still hurting over Mexico's loss to USA.

Subject: I thought I was over it.... From: AJW To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:17:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found time for the forum again now that England got its nose wiped by Brazil? Love to you and Dot too, Marianne PS The Mad Mexican is still hurting over Mexico's loss to USA. --- Hi Marianne, I thought I was over it until you mentioned it. It had a catastrophic effect on the national psyche, almost as bad as when we went out of the European semi-finals on penalities to Germany. The way we deal with it is to pretend it didn't happen. Nobody has mentioned it for a few days and I thought I was over it until... Anyway, the USA exceeded all expectations. It's nice to see you relating to other nations on the sports field, instead of bombing them, and nice to see you in a World Championship with other countries involved too. Hope all is well with you and yours. Say 'Hi' to your Mexican toy-boy. Anth, you shouldn't have brought it up.

Subject: Answers for AJW From: Crispy To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 14:10:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd like to take a go at your questions AJW. I'm not going to say everybody should've experienced it in the same way, of course. But I can tell ya what it was for me. I liked the first three techniques when I wasn't sleepy and my thoughts finally slowed down. That was, really roughly, about 10% of the time when the desired brain chemistry result was finally achieved. The light was everything from a glowing energy shield, to a faint glow in the dark, to kaleidoscopic patterns on the eyes similar to when facing the noon sun with closed eyelids, to zilch blackness. I've only ever heard two kinds of music, the beating sound of blood behind my ears (wonder if that would work for taking a pulse rate?) as well as a higher soft buzz sound somewhere behind it. I don't think I've ever (in 27 years) tasted nectar, except for a handful of occasions where I felt strong, sure, undaunted while doing it. And I didn't always do them ‘in order'. Sometimes I'd do holy name first to wind down. Sometimes I'd just dive into light. Sometimes I'd hear music while doing light, and vice versa. Many times I'd take breaks in between, some for 15 minutes, some for a day! And roundabout the time Mj switched to one-hour minimum per day, I more or less dropped the nectar technique off the agenda, save the odd occasion. Okay, nothing too earth-shatteringly different. However, the simple fact that I could see these light patterns and hear these sounds, in themselves was a small and unimpressive deal for me. But with the feelings that started coming when my mind finally slowed down - all kinds of answers just came, feelings of being soothed, safe, needing nothing more - the stillness that felt ‘full' - like a nice mellow high. Some drugs give similar feelings. I felt the same feeling when trying a buddhist version of the holy name where they counted the breaths and left eyelids half open (which I did sometimes before myself with holy name). About a month after completely exing and ceased meditating, I was lying on my couch relaxing when out of nowhere, the 2nd music sound was there. I just felt like going along with it, what the heck, listen to it for a few minutes. The time was ripe. My mind was glad to be slowed, and the music was gentle and soothing to hear - no different from all the other 10% Best Of times I'd had as a pwk. That was a marker for me, because at that time I had fallen out of love with Mj, no longer believed or cared if he was Perfect Master, but was glad to know it was still with me, mine and mine alone and will always be there for me to do with whatever I will. Leave it, listen to it, sometimes, all the time, or never - it doesn't matter. It's my choice totally now. That discovery was a monumental release for me. In the end, the question for myself is, how much do I need and want to feel it? For me it's not the big thing that eastern trips and masters make it out to be. It's just another nice feeling. And I'm only going to continue enjoying whenever the urge hits me again. Like a nice glass of blueberry wine. And without worrying that it's just another weird method in brain chemistry. And I don't know what all the mass love for Mj was - another form of love that's blind and that ignores the facts, maybe. If you were someone who was placed on a pedestal by thousands of people projecting their faith, trust, hopes and dreams onto you, believing your divine authority - how would anyone, even a perfect master, handle that? You'd think at least he/she would love them back. It was *conditioned* that Mj, the master, loves his premies. But I could never actually see that. Exactly how could he love us? But when it looks like he loves money more than his closest servants, the love (from me, at least) dropped like a hot potato. Then you start seeing the object of your love as he/she really is - in Mj's case, a coward who refuses to deal with anything and continues to deceive his ‘dearly loved devotees'.

Subject: Dr Lane's analysis From: Jean-Michel To: Crispy Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 02:01:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't forget to read: THE GURU HAS NO TURBAN WHY SHABD YOGA MASTERS ARE NOT PERFECT

Subject: Re: Dr Lane's analysis From: Crispy To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 07:14:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Salut et merci pour un autre article excellent! Je vais l'ajoutera avec des autres documents d'EPO pour distribution ŕ une réunion de ma famille cet été. J'ai premičrement entendue de Mj d'une cousine qui est encore une PWK et qui (contrairement ŕ moi) donnait des vidéos d'intro aux membres de notre famille! :)

Subject: Re: Answers for Thorin. From: PatD To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:45:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: People who set other folk on a pedestal tend to go wierd when they meet them. Yes,the pecking order syndrome,which outside of rawatworld was one of the advantages of being in it.When you know you've got god within,& his are the only feet you'll kiss without,you tend to see everyone from bog attendants to CEO's as being equally in their heads & so can chat easily across the social spectrum. I surely did,mind you a certain level of investment in the appropriate kit for the occasion is necessary.I can do the whole range from semi-derelict to black tie(not ready made either)if need be. Darshan though.......I always felt other people were getting stroked out with bliss & I wasn't....mea culpa. The only time I met yer worship in person I was terrified.

Subject: Re: Answers for Thorin. From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:16:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe we were faking it. The first time I joined a darshan line snaking down Woodside Avenue everyone was so just like blissed out man. The atmosphere was light headed giggly so was I. Kissing anyones feet was a sort of urgh thought but what the hell everyone else was doing it. This is embarrassing yes my lips grazed the holy silk socks, yes I stood up grinning and got thrown out into the garden to join the other idiots. We all smiled that special smile the one that says ' I don't know what happened there, I'm not going to think about it' We kept grinning all the way to the ciggy shop, and laughing what the hell we were young and in love. Later into my carreer as a premie like you I found the guy a bit scary up close and sought to avoid such encounters. Love and stuff without pedestals Boly

Subject: Rawat says only he can provide peace From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 07:18:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just in from Elan Vital. I took the opportunity of highlighting certain portions that caught my eye. It would seem that the Unique Perfect Master claims were not disbanded in the early 80's as was claimed. From this EV announcement it is being claimed that the only purpose of one's life is to receive SK, to practise it and only through the Master can one derive the full benefit of SK. No ifs or buts - receive SK and accept the teachings of the Master or choose not to fulfil the purpose of your life. Who said revisionism was the order of the day - from what I see nothing has changed, only some words and suits. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- July 1st: Year 2000 in Review - Highlights from events held during 2000. July 2nd: Awakening: Reflections from 2001 - This broadcast follows the thread of three themes Maharaji addressed at his events in 2001 - Breath, Thirst, and Appreciation. This is a topical and poetic approach interspersed with graphic elements which highlight selected quotes from his talks. July 3rd: Maharaji in Miami, Florida, December 7th 2001 - Maharaji dedicates his address to people interested in understanding more about Self-Knowledge. July 4th: Knowledge: to Know (Rome, September 30th 2000) This broadcast introduces Maharaji and his message, with information on how to learn more about Self-Knowledge. July 5th : Enjoying Knowledge (Alexandria, June 17th 2000) Taken from the talk Maharaji gave in Alexandria, Virginia, this broadcast focuses on enjoying Self-Knowledge. July 6th: Maharaji in San Francisco, CA (November 23rd 2001) Here, Maharaji talks about the importance of the journey and the significance of turning hostile elements into ones that can help us to grow. July 7th: Simple as Breath - Maharaji describes the breath as the most abundant and constant thing in one's life. Its remembrance opens up the possibility of finding joy in one's existence. July 8th : Recognizing the Master (Barcelona, June 2nd 2001) When a person feels the need for inner fulfilment, there is a friend who can help. This particular friend is the true Master, but recognizing him requires a certain understanding. In this talk Maharaji emphasises the importance of recognizing the Master. July 9th: Time, Remembrance and Fulfilment. This new production presents the themes of time, remembrance and fulfilment from Maharaji's talks in 2001. Maharaji speaks about the importance of remembering the gift of life, valuing each breath and each moment, and finding fulfilment in one's life now. July 10th: Maharaji in Paris, France, (September 25th 2000) Maharaji explains the importance of each breath and our need to capture every moment of life. July 11th: Lisbon Public Event (June 10th 2001) Maharaji's introductory address in Lisbon, Portugal on June 10th 2001. 'I bring you very good news: you are alive and within you shines a sun of joy, peace and tranquillity so bright that it can make the darkness go away'. July 12th : Maharaji in Buenos Aires (August 28th 2001) July 13th: Maharaji in Mainz, Germany (July 8th 2001) Maharaji explains the importance of remembering what it means to be alive, and that we can be in joy and fulfilment. July 14th: Amaroo day 1 (April 24th 2001) Maharaji talks about the simplicity of each breath which brings clarity to our life, and the practical value of knowing it: 'Let me take inventory of this life and make sure that not a moment is wasted'. July 15th: Being Comfortable with Life (Curaçao, September 1st 2001) One of the major themes of this talk is what it means to be comfortable with life, with existence, and that Self-Knowledge is something that can make one feel very comfortable with life. In this broadcast Maharaji also talks about finding one's true direction in life, about the fact that nothing in life except Self-Knowledge addresses the full enjoyment of existence, and about the fact that he does not just speak empty words, and that there is Self-Knowledge to give one's life substance, so that one can experience true fulfilment. July 16th: Safe Passage (Curaçao, September 2nd 2001) Here, Maharaji addresses the importance of not letting anything disturb one's enjoyment and experience of life. Some of the other themes include accepting the Master's offer of help in this journey of life so that each person can make good passage even through the storms, and lighting the fire of Self-Self-Knowledge in one's life, which brings both warmth and light. July 17th: Simple as Breath - Maharaji describes the breath as the most abundant and constant thing in one's life. Its remembrance opens up the possibility of finding joy in one's existence. July 18th: Universal Quest – This broadcast features excerpts of Maharaji interacting with audiences at events held in North America during November and December 2001. July 19th: The Essence of your Life (Buenos Aires, August 29th 2001) This broadcast features Maharaji's talk from Buenos Aires in its entirety. He talks about the fact that each one of us has to be the judge of whether we are fulfilled in our lives. He also talks about being comfortable with your existence and with Self-Knowledge. July 20th: Maharaji in Phoenix, AZ (November 21st 2001) At this event Maharaji talks about the thirst to be fulfilled as a universal human feeling, and the importance of taking advantage of every moment. July 21st: Remember – Featuring excerpts from events in 2001 where Maharaji talks about remembering each persons's thirst to be fulfilled. July 22nd: Maharaji in White Plains (November 18th 2001) July 23rd: Recognition (Rome, June 23rd 2001) Maharaji gave this address to people who have received the techniques of Self-Self-Knowledge. July 24th: Amaroo day 1 (April 24th 2001) Maharaji talks about the simplicity of each breath which brings clarity to our life, and the practical value of knowing it: 'Let me take inventory of this life and make sure that not a moment is wasted'. July 25th: Fulfilment (Sydney, October 6th 1996) This programme is taken from a public event in Sydney, Australia in 1996. Maharaji's talk follows a common theme: 'Within you is the domain where you will find your peace. Your peace. My peace is within me. Your peace is within you.' July 26th: It's Happening Here (Amaroo April 16th 2000) July 27th: Nottingham 30-year anniversary event (June 17th 2001) In June 2001, over 6000 people attended an event in Nottingham, UK, to celebrate Maharaji's arrival in the west 30 years ago. July 28th: Amaroo day 2 (April 25th 2001) Maharaji explains what it means to be alive and the passion involved in the process of realising it. July 29th: Capture the Day (Miami Beach, May 6th 2000) This programme features Maharaji's talks from the morning and afternoon of the May 6th Miami Event 2000, plus sneak previews of Maharaji at the backstage before the event. July 30th: Quenching the Thirst (Rome, June 24th 2001) Of all the things we do in life, how many of those things directly pertain to quenching the thirst of the heart? We have an opportunity to fulfil that thirst during our lives. In fact, isn't that what living is all about? July 31st: Remember – Featuring excerpts from events in 2001 where Maharaji talks about remembering each person's thirst to be fulfilled.

Subject: Yes, he still thinks he's God. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:13:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're right Thorin, he still thinks he's the Perfect Master. I read a cult leaflet that is only a few months old recently. It mentioned the fact that you need a 'living Master'. If you ask a premie to name some examples of 'dead Masters', they come up with Jesus, Buddha etc. It's the same old trip, but it's been forced underground because it's no longer socially acceptable to go to dinner parties and tell everyone you are the greatest incarnation of God ever to walk the planet. Anth, the latest in a long line of homosapiens.

Subject: More from Dr Geaves From: PatW To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 17:19:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extract from 'The British Association for the Study of Religions -Bulletin No.96 June 2002'- 'Report on the 27th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions- 22 March-24 March 2002, London.': Dr Ron Geaves (Chester) in his paper 'fromTotapuri to Maharaji:Reflections on a Parampara (lineage)' told us that during the early years of the 1970's, Divine Light Mission experienced phenomenal growth in the West. The teachings of the young Guru Maharaji (now known as Maharaji), base upon an experience of fulfilment arrived at by four techniques that focused attention inward, spread quickly to Britain, France, Germany, Holland, Switzerland, Spain,Italy, Scandinavia, Japan, Aouth America, Australasia, Canad and the USA. Toda, the teachings have gone worldwide to over 80 countries. Dr Geaves sought to demonstrate firstly that those various scholars who identify maharaji's roots as Sant Mat, or more speifically Radhasoami, are mistaken. Secondl, he argued that a more accurate exploration of Maharaji's historical background provides an excellent opportunity to study the complexity of the various ways of organising such lineages and can demonstrate how intricately major strands of Hinduism can interweave with each other to create new paradigms to assert an ancient teaching capable of transcending discrete religious borders. thirdly, he sought through this investigation of lineage to throw light on the relationship between charisma and institutionalisation in the Indian context and to allow for a revisiting of Gol'd classification of Sant tradition in particular. This paper attracted much discussion as many participants had informed knowledge of the Divine Light Mission's history, schism and subsequent transformation. I was given this pamphlet by a scholar in attendance at the lecture referred to. He told me that he was rather shocked to learn (from me, after the event) that Dr Geaves was a follower of Maharaji himself - because he had apparently failed to mention his bias at the meeting. Also my scholarly aquaintance strongly disagrees with Dr Geaves's take on Maharaji being descended from Totapuri and saw this as a totally flawed argument at the time - notwithstanding the well documented Sant Mat origins and the fact that Totapuri's practices were apparently totally different. In short he failed to see the connection and saw Ron Geaves' attempt to make a link as bizarrely fanciful. Since he has learned of Ron Geaves' connection with Maharaji as a follower, he expects that Ron is simply falling into the same old trap of trying to bolster his own Master's image by associating him with popular, and respected Indian religious figures. Is he just another quaint old professor who's losing the plot? Any comments?

Subject: Re: More from Dr Geaves From: The Falcon To: PatW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps your friend could enquire as to how Dr.Ron completely missed out the Nangli Sahib crew, not very scholarly!! They are very approachable and knowledable apparently, ideal for a professor's inquisive mind and piercing conclusions (Oh fuck, I have fallen into sarcasm!). There are some lovely pictures of the 'Satgurudev'in 'the crown' and a book called;- Shri Swarup Darshan (in English) which recounts the tale in a litrary style that over-eggs the pudding with superlatives. I will lend it to you but it's heavy going and there is no mention of a Hans at all which, if he was Sarupanand's favourite as Dr. Ron suggests, is rather surprising.

Subject: I wonder From: Dermot To: PatW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 19:25:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how objective and scholarly he canreally be about all this, given that, subjectively, he's totally immersed as a devotee of Maharji. I suppose it isn't impossible but I wonder what he's actually doing. How much of his academic work life has he devoted to this lineage issue, I wonder? What for? To present Maharaji in some sort of good light in the academic world he inhabits? To do some subtle sort of propagation while retaining some semblance of detachment? Academic curiosity ? To counter the EPO Sant Mat stuff? It all seems a bit odd to me. Then again, it beats working 12 hour shifts in a factory I suppose:) How he can do all this research and then hold a public forum on his paper and NOT ever mention the little fact that he's been totally devoted to the object of his study for the last .....what is it? ...32/33 years beats me haha. Maybe he just forget to add that into the equation.....it's not as if it's relevant or anything:) .....I went to see a Dr just the other night Da do RON RON RON Da do RON RON I had a little query 'bout the Divine Light Da do RON RON RON Da do RON RON Ohhh it seemed so very odd.. his thesis was about his God... ...... oh I can't be bothered to continue... PS Pat....one more time....sorry I called you a pompous snob :) -Dermot

Subject: heavenly deception as in the children of god From: hamzen To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 02:36:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can't say the truth because people will misunderstand his true mission and position as the lord of all, so you are economical with the truth, and bluff it as a man of the world. But truly it's not a cult. God that kind of premie bollox is so transparent. If geaves had any self-respect the first line of his paper would state his relationship.

Subject: Re: heavenly deception as in the children of god From: Jethr To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 03:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'If geaves had any self-respect the first line of his paper would state his relationship'. I agree with you but if you knew him well he has a tremendously strong intellect that can waffle and rationalise around anything, which is ok in much of the academic world who live on producing papers many of which are much-ado-about-nothing.

Subject: I tried to ignore you post From: Jethro To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:26:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't this the person who met that 106 year old mahatma of Sarupanand who told Ron that Hans was Sarupanand's favourite? Oh yes...and unfortunately Ron couldn't check on who the master of this mahatma was after Sarupanand died, becaue the 106-year-old suddenly died. I think it's pretty clear that this mahatma(if he existed), was not with hans or prem. Anyway, as one of Ron's historical favourite people(whose name slips from me at the moment)said'if you say a lie enough times it becomes the truth in people's minds'. It may give some Bhaki-type premies some material(the power of the printed word!). Oh yes, one more thing, in my last conversation with Ron(face to face), I said 'You know Ron, I really believed that Maharaji was LOTU, didn't you?' He bowed his head, shook it from side to side and said 'No'. I am afraid that Ron is lost to revisionism IMNSHO. No more comments on this person for now, except that he has realised a long term ambition in doing this no matter who got hurt along the way. He emulates Maharaji.

Subject: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:44:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gregg weighs in on the subject, in print From: Gregg To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:39:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The first few words of my response to the interesting Mike Finch thread were 'Here, after the cult...' The word here was supposed to have a little whiff of Zen about it, given the next comments. I was trying to give a sense of us being somewhere specific, perhaps psychologically, especially since defining ourselves as EX-premies says what we are not, rather than what we are. It was also a pun on the 'hereafter' (life after death) which I referred to later when I alluded to premies' belief in going through that Final Darshan Tunnel when they finally shuffle off this mortal coil. So that's the literary analysis, for what it's worth. Whaddya think, Bolly? Is yr keyboard shooting blanks?

Subject: Re: Gregg weighs in on the subject, in print From: Bolly To: Gregg Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for that Gregg I did actually catch the drift of your post. It was the pun etc and that I have been reflecting on the after this life intermittently over the years. Last weekend was the anniversary of my fathers death over thirty years ago. He tends to be spoken of if at all as something best not dwelt on. He could be a bit beyond the pale when fuelled with alchohol. It is quite common to sense the presence of the recently departed, though this has never occured with my father until last weekend when a phrase peculiar to him sort of skimmed through my my mind. A few minutes later I glanced at a picture of my mother which was hanging askew having hung in the same place straight for years. So your pun hot on the heels of my Doris Stokes moment struck a chord. Don't ask me about what the machine does, just be impressed i've cracked the alphabet and know how to switch it on so my skills are not stagnant. Hope we meet before the final darshan tunnel, If it really is the Master at the end of the tunnel I'll ask for a recount. Love etc. Bolly

Subject: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:44:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Musing on Greggs term the here after. From: Bolly To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:46:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Still musing Bolly ? :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 15:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hereafter? Or does he mean the there before?(nt) From: cq To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 10:10:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hereafter? Or does he mean the there before?

Subject: this is extremely amusing [nt] From: Livia To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:55:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who exactly are the FA's here?

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: AJW To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:09:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vicki, Since July 2000, the forum has been administered by a PC in Paris. Jean Michel wrote the software, and we tested it throughout that summer. The results were amazing, and it's been running the forum ever since. Anth, I swear on the Bible.

Subject: I confirm From: Jean-Michel To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 00:16:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It took me months and months of hate to write the software.

Subject: LOL (rien de texte) From: AJW To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:59:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sacre-bleu

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:15:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ahhhhh, so it's Auto Self Forum, is it?

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:43:11 (PDT) Email Address: gkl1@techline.com Message: Vicki, I am the FA and I'm trying to keep a low profile. If I post my name and email on the main page, I get spam and virus email aplenty. Also I have been receiving computer telephone harassment calls (ongoing) for the last month or so. PatC was helping me up very recently. I'd like to publicly thank Pat for all his time and dedication. He was a great help and a great FA. I will miss him in that capacity.

Subject: Sympathy & personal (very OT) From: Peter Howie To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 17:51:46 (PDT) Email Address: macquarie@ozepower.com.au Message: Hi Gerry, You're welcome to delete this off the forum as it is OT and personal to you. I got harrassing calls many years ago and I still remember quite vividly the feelings they provoked. Mine were around a failed relationship. They also included stalking and being tailed by a professional. I also found that the person had sent a poisonous letter to my partner shortly before we got married(mid 80s). She didn't bring it up until after we had split up. It had poisoned our marriage. So my thoughts go out to you. I became phobic around phones for a few years. I went through the whole routine. Firstly getting all calls screened by the phone company. Then recording all calls as they came in. The bozo left many inciminating messages. My solicitor said - 'Look if this person is prepared to do this in public then going to trial is something that they want as well. They may want their moment of trying to vindicate how they are treating you.' Eventually I simply changed phone numbers. A few times. My situation became unwinnable - in terms of getting them to stop. Eventually they must have become bored or moved on. Oddly enough they sent me a photo of the marriage of their eldest child. My interpretation of what they were one about was 'Here - you can't do this. I won' Cheers if this is any use. Peter Howie

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Carlos - to gerry (OT) To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 19:30:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Are the harassing calls still going on? You aren't clear about that. Allow me to express my sympathy if they are.

Subject: Re: F7 FA'S From: Vicki To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:14:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Gerry. I agree, Pat did a great job, as you yourself are doing.

Subject: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Mike Finch To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:07:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji You are known now to the public as Prem Rawat, but for the 30 or so years that I gave my life to you, I knew you as Maharaji, or Guru Maharaji, so that is how I will continue to refer to you. I have had a long and involved relationship with you, ranging from sublime moments of incredible beauty, good times, mediocre times, through boredom and frustration, to pain, abuse and feelings of desertion. I have withdrawn from you in stages. For the 20 years up to 1990, you were my Lord - someone who could reach into my heart whatever my situation, and rescue me. I practiced Knowledge almost everyday, and begged and prayed for your grace to make the Knowledge work, in full confidence that you could and would do this if I were open to it. And if it didn't happen, well then I was obviously not open enough, and needed to surrender to you more. In the early 90's, I had my first doubts that you were the Lord; perhaps you did not control this amazing grace that could enlighten me. But that was OK, because the Knowledge was internal, between me and God, and could still take me to the deepest place; even if your role was just to give the Knowledge, and remind me of the importance of it periodically, that was enough. In the mid 90's I met you briefly backstage at the Atlantic City event, and that was the last time I spoke to you. Since then, the accumulation of 30 years pursuing an impossible goal - or to be precise, pursuing two goals which are mutually impossible to fulfill - had become an overbearing weight from which I had to escape. The two goals I refer to that a premie has to fulfill are these: The inner goal of finding their heart or center, and the outer goal of being connected with you. The essence of your message for 30 years has been that you need to pursue both goals, and that you cannot get one without the other. I see now that achieving these two goals together is an impossible task. It is quite possible to achieve either goal on its own. I believe that the first goal, the human search for ultimate meaning and freedom within the human consciousness, is both possible and a worthwhile endeavour; in doing this, other people can be teachers, but no other person can become the master to whom you dedicate your life. It is also of course possible to attain the second goal - a connection with you as a person, devotion to you as the Master. For most premies this meant being near you physically, or at least having access to you; selling family and career to be with you at an event on the other side of the world, selling anything to be seated near you, and so on. A particularly virulent form of this devotion was the urge to be in the inner circle around you. During my 30 years as a premie I have observed this phenomenon closely and intimately - sometimes from the inside, as someone in the inner circle, but usually from the outside, as someone who was trying desperately to climb up the ladder to the inner circle. The interesting thing about this phenomenon, is that I really did not want to be near you, or rub shoulders with other inner circle players - I only did so because I thought it was the passport to the first goal of inner contentment. I now see that it actually prevented inner contentment. Ironic. So that in a nutshell is why I no longer consider you my master, nor practice your Knowledge. The first goal of inner discovery I have always wanted, and still want. I took you as my master to help me fulfill that goal, which you promised to do; but you introduced another goal, centered around yourself, which in fact made it impossible to fulfill the first goal. Unfortunately, for 30 years I accepted your message that the second goal of a connection or devotion to you was necessary to attain the first goal. To see and logically understand the dynamics of the last 30 years is one thing, but of course there is a lot of emotion and feeling too. As I have said, there were good times and profound experiences. At the time, I thought the deep experiences I had were due to your grace; now I think they were due to my grace, meaning that I had them independently of you. I did of course learn much from you; the problem is that I had to invest so much - way too much - to learn what I did. So my predominant feeling now is one of grief and anger. I grieve for the last 30 years: for the careers given up to be ready to go anywhere anytime to do your bidding; for the relationships given up to be in the ashram or 'available for service'; for the money given up in order to be free of ego (I gave you a house, inheritances, wages and enough spare cash over 30 years that would have left me financially comfortable for the rest of my life had I not given it all to you.) I grieve for a book I wrote that was suppressed after writing it, because the initial suggestion for writing it came from your brother SatPal. I grieve for the lost thoughts and dreams, my own thoughts, lost because they were not allowed to exist in a premie, otherwise he was 'in his mind'. I grieve for what might have been, had I not been marching up a dead-end alley, all the time proclaiming to myself and the world that I was marching along the golden highway to liberation. I grieve for all the people that I tried so earnestly to convince that this dead-end alley was the glorious road that they should be marching on too. I am not sure how you see yourself these days. Do you see yourself still as the Perfect Master, needing of course to tone it down for public consumption, but still the living embodiment of that grace, without which no one can really benefit from the Knowledge techniques ? Or do you privately think of that as a Hindu myth, and you are content to live off it - and live very well off it, like a family business, as your detractors maintain ? Or was it a gradual change over the years from one to the other ? To be honest, I don't really care - my grief is felt and expressed, and now I intend to move on. As the English expression says, there is no point in crying over spilt milk. Although I left you 18 months ago (I first publicly posted on the ex-premie Forum in January 2001) it has taken me these 18 months to fully extricate myself from your influence. So I thank you for the good times; for all the rest, and the grief I have expressed in this letter, I drop them from my shoulders - thus ! The dream I had before I met you, I still have; and I am going for it, unencumbered and feeling very much lighter. -- Mike

Subject: Open Letter's section on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 06:48:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is on the 'Best of Forum' page: Open Letters to M and EV Thank you Mike.

Subject: J-M, we're talking about this post From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 14:09:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nottingham Bunny and I thought this means you have put Mike's post on the Open Letters page. Of course it should be there. All the best, John.

Subject: Re: Open Letter's section on EPO From: Nottm Bunny To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 13:40:56 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Jean-Michel, Thanks for the link but I cannot find Mike's letter on the page. Could you put it under his name? Thanks, Bunny

Subject: Which one ? From: Jean-Michel To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:19:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can process only forum threads once they're in the archives. When has that letter been posted ?

Subject: Mike's letter's not there From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:42:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J-M, What Bunny means is that the link to Mike's letter is not where you said it is. All the best, John.

Subject: Again: which mike/letter/date? From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 01:51:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M Finch's, M Donner's ? Date posted ? The one posted a couple of days ago CAN'T be there, it's still on the forum.

Subject: Nice letter Mike From: PatD To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:45:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...a lot nicer than the one I would've written had I given the guy a house etc. Still,I'd rather be me than him.It's impossible to put oneself in the shoes of someone who has been so spectacularly fucked up since infancy.Maybe that doesn't matter so much in India. East is East & West is West & never the twain shall meet. That's a cosmic joke isn't it, the end product of a lifelong process of allegiance to an inported religion,is someone(myself),who believes that a long dead Imperialist poet was right. All the best to you.

Subject: Re: From: bill To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:20:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike Finch, Hope you dont mind that it is us reading your mail and not perhaps him. Although, he must wander through sometimes. It IS about him. I am not convinced yet that he or any of those hindu/buddist types ever and I do mean EVER 'find thier center'. Everyone deals with this onslaught of sight and sound ect from various vantage points that cannot be made constant. There appears to be no 'there' that is the goal. There appears to be no escape from our human nature and our limits. There appears to be no zone of safety no matter what one does. Even those that dedicate thier lives to god in some fashion are not winning an exemption card from the troubles and dilemmas we face. Seems like those that say, 'hey, the IT is inside' are just flat out wrong. As Joan apter said, she didnt experience anything in meditation. I think raja ji, the lords cocaine cowboy brother, would agree. Those that claim to have actually gotten somewhere samadhi-like inside, they end up doing some embarassing behaviours that cant stand the light of day and are not able to be rationalized by those that believed them. knowing prem in person left a disgusted feeling in those like Mike Dettmers and Mike Donner. All around, there appears to be nothing to gain from prem rawats methods, of his freindship. a double loss with no redeeming angles !! Just all around ugly

Subject: Thank you Mike From: Richard To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:42:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, I feel I know you after reading that letter. It takes tremendous courage to let your thoughts and feelings come forth and even greater courage to share them with us. Thank you for that and for giving anyone who reads your words the opportunity to see M's world through your eyes. I would like to see your letter become a permanent part of EPO in the ***Best of Forum*** section. All the best to you in your continued fulfillment of the dream before M. Richard

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Vicki To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:36:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bravo, Mike! Very well said.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: PatC To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:56:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Mike. I'm sending a copy of this to our mutual premie friends in Gloucestershire. I hope your 18 months out of the cult has been as exciting and happy as mine has. Yes, our involvement with Rawat did damage us financially and psychologically, curtailed a lot of our careers, tainted our family ties and stifled our creativity and growth but the future looks better all the time. I wish all the best.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: michael donner To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:35:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: its always hard for me to speak about what i think i might have missed out on as a result of being in the cult...and ashram for so many years...my mother use to say 'if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its rump every time it tried to jump'...god bless her...and...'looking back is for fools'...the home spun wisdom of that generation. like, maybe i missed out on getting aids through lack of sex. or all those years of animal fat or hormones in meat...or a career that lead to too much drinking...or a broken marraige...or who the fuck knows what really. personally, i still do not measure success by the money made or lost..or lost or gained years of ladder climbing in the corporate world. i did learn that i do not need a guru, and i do not want to give my power away anymore...to anyone...that i want to continue to learn to assume full responsibility for my life and completely remove blame from my frame of reference in all my relationships. these are major learning that resulted from my years (in good part) in the cult. and of course, learning painfully is not pleasant...so now i request to learn the lessons of life without the pain...but wow does that require paying attention to the early signals that situations give out. oh, and i was wondering, in the context of mike finch's letter..if anyone knows how to get a letter to m these days...email or otherwise...does his web site give a 'contact' ? i have never looked at his web site...i doubt it would.

Subject: How to get a letter to the Maha From: cq To: michael donner Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 11:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Prem Rawat Foundation P.O. Box 241498 Los Angeles, CA 90024 Tel: +1 (310) 392-5700 Fax: +1 (310) 388-3231 whether it ever gets read is another matter ...

Subject: Re: How to get a letter to the Maha From: Nottm Bunny To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 14:01:51 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Chris, No letter ever sent this way gets to M as Mike Finch well knows. A sure fire way was always through Patrick or Cathy Glebe but you have to a) be known by them b) probably still need to be in the club c) the missive would have to be handed to either of them personally ...... for that route. Thought Mike can satisfy a he fails b miserably on a very public level now and he would have to attend or have an emissary go to an event for c. Bunny

Subject: Well done Mike... From: Dermot To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:40:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as usual with grace, honesty and care. I phoned my daughter the other day for a chat about this and that. Her mother, still a premie, answered first so we exchanged a brief but hearty 'hello, how're ya getting on'. Quite a while into the talk with my daughter I heard someone shouting something in the background. My daughter passed on the message : 'There's a programme in Brighton....are you going?' Without maliciousness, bitterness or any negativity I just said 'Oh, I don't follow him anymore ...I just follow my own direction'. The good thing about it was I really meant it. Really. Yep, there were good times...sometimes amazing times......we shouldn't forget that. Nevertheless, truth must out. To use that(perhaps) now hackneyed phrase.....'To thine own self be true...' Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: Pat W To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:11:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just read Mike's very clear letter and it inspires me with these thoughts. 1- Mike's tone is respectful thus something that Maharaji might just consider reading. 2- Maharaji knows Mike personally and goes back a long way with him - thus another reason he might read it. 3- I have been thinking of writing a similar letter and also would like to think it would be written with a similarly frank and respectful tone and yet without compromising my honest feelings and judgements. Maharaji would possibly remember me personally too since I have had some personal dealings with him. I wonder waht he would make of all these leeters if he actually sat down and read them. How would he feel? 4-I think that there must be quite a few others who would like to express themselves to Maharaji within this sort of letter. 5 - Mikes letter is highly representative of other people's feelings too. I absolutely could relate to what he writes and to some extent would say almost exactly the same things. Thank you Mike, you expressed my sentiments very well. 6- Mike's letter and those of others could maybe be posted on special section of the EPO website -perhaps entitled 'Personal Open Letters to Maharaji' where they stand a chance of eventually being noticed by Maharaji himself (who is, let's face it, rather notorious for not responding to letters that he is sent by snail mail). Certainly if there were enough letters they would virtually amount to a petition of sorts which may be deemed worthy of some sort of response. Even if that response was insincere - ie. to appear as having addressed people's issues conscientiously without actually doing so -it would be something. 7- Mike's letter must represent some frustration at his being unable to express himself to Maharaji directly. Others including myself, have poured out their hearts in letters to Maharaji, sent them to him in the post or popped them into recepticles at Darshan lines which say 'Letters to Maharaji' and suchlike. My one that I wrote at Amaroo was a cathartic exercise for me and I don't mind saying that I shed some tears over it, however that I very much doubt if it was ever read by M personally. But to me it contained important and sincere things that I wanted Maharaji in person to read. So this just impresses me that it would be very useul to create a page where these things could reside to serve as a powerful testimony of people's feelings. 8- Maybe Mike would feel different, but I would welcome a meeting with Maharaji where we could at least tell him all these kinds of feelings and where he would have a chance to give his replies. The more I read this site the more I feel that some of us are somehow collectively trying to make Maharaji at the very least acknowledge our grievances - I think this may be tied up with feelings that some acknowledgement, apology or explanation would a} be healing for all concerned. Us importantly. b} would help current premies (many whom are cherished old friends) to accept us as not being entirely 'off the wall' and so diminish the bitterness and feelings of resentment that premies feel for 'apostates'. c} would actually be very good for Maharaji himself who has received huge love and devoted support over the years from people who maybe still have some residual concern that he is not left entirely to the influence of those around him who never dare to significantly challenge what he says or does. In other words people who maybe still care for him a little - or who just feel that their relationship with him is incomplete until he acknowledges their expression. Maybe I haven't put this too well but I hope you catch my drift - I think Mike's letter is very potent in it's honesty and lack of aggression. Maharaji, in my opinion, should address the grief of people like Mike whose lifetime investment in Maharaji has left them feeling this way. Maharaji comes out of all this more as a sort of 'Robert Maxwellian' character who squandered peoples pensions and investments and who was callous enough to not to give a damn about the lives of those he affected, than the Good Shepherd to whom losing one sheep was unthinkable.

Subject: A Good Idea Mike. From: AJW To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:52:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, Hope all is well round the other side of the world. I think having a place to deposit letters to Captain Rawat is a good idea. I'm sure it would be good for me to write one to him. Don't you think Rawat is more of a Michael Jackson character than Maxwell? Someone who was born into a wierd life to start off with, then became wierder and wierder as the years went by. Also being surrounded by flunkeys never did anyone any good. If they're telling you you're God Almighty too, odds are you're going find your screws are losening and dropping out all by themselves. I think he still believes he's the Perfect Master, doing what his dad did, spreading 'Knowledge to the World'. He could justify his extravagant lifestyle in all sorts of ways. Whaddya think Mike? Anth the extravagant T-shirt. PS. Good to see you got the 'Shift' key fixed and found some CAPS.

Subject: A Good Idea Mike. From: AJW To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:52:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, Hope all is well round the other side of the world. I think having a place to deposit letters to Captain Rawat is a good idea. I'm sure it would be good for me to write one to him. Don't you think Rawat is more of a Michael Jackson character than Maxwell? Someone who was born into a wierd life to start off with, then became wierder and wierder as the years went by. Also being surrounded by flunkeys never did anyone any good. If they're telling you you're God Almighty too, odds are you're going find your screws are losening and dropping out all by themselves. I think he still believes he's the Perfect Master, doing what his dad did, spreading 'Knowledge to the World'. He could justify his extravagant lifestyle in all sorts of ways. Whaddya think Mike? Anth the extravagant T-shirt. PS. Good to see you got the 'Shift' key fixed and found some CAPS.

Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Maharaji From: michael donner To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:47:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nice letter mike finch..and thoughts pat w. it is unlikely that m will read this letter from this site..or that anyone around him will print it for him to read. if either of you are interested in m actually reading your thoughts, i suggest you email him directly with your letters/thoughts. wonderful for us to read here however and no doubt good for anyone who reads here that might be on the fence so to speak. thanks for the effort it has taken to both leave the cult and verbalize it so clearly...we all benefit from such effort.

Subject: above two posts are for you Mike D. From: AJW To: michael donner Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:53:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's an echo in this thread by the way. Anth, don't ask.

Subject: Re: above two posts are for you Mike D. From: michael donner To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:20:24 (PDT) Email Address: mmdonner@shaw.ca Message: hi anth, not sure who maxwell is but m seems a lot like michael jackson (as you describe, at least)...born into a weird situation that got increasingly worse as he had to prove himself separate from his mother and older brother(s)...and then surely surrounded by devotees saying yes, yes yes all the time added fuel to the fire then the self fulfilling prophesy stuff added even more fuel to that fire...backed himself into corner by repeating so often his ownership of knowledge and the singularity of his 'gift' and message. wow...self delusion sort of...but probably more likely just pride at this point...major pride issue of having to stand by his previous statements of the purpose in his life and all like that. my two bits on the subject...but what the hell do i know...just the way it seems to me. hoping you are well anth!

Subject: Re; Robert Maxwell (OT) From: The Falcon To: michael donner Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:59:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Robert Maxwell was a UK media baron (our very own Citizen Kane)who used the pensions of all his workers as his personal fund and spent the lot. An ill-mannered, despicable tyrant who drowned off the coast of Tenerife (conspiracy theories abound still!)by falling off his boat. Hence the following joke; What is the similarity between Robert Maxwell and an Essex girl? They both end up, stark naked, flat on their back , the first night in Tenerife. (Cultural reference;- Tenerife is/was a holiday resort for the less-cultured Brits, particularly popular with Essex slappers)

Subject: wow so lovely Mike From: Loaf To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:46:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So good to read 'closure' expressed so clearly and honestly. Wonderful. Love to you Ian

Subject: Well said Mike. From: AJW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:26:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, That's a great letter. Bet you don't get a reply. The journey away from the Lotus Feet is far more fulfilling, exciting, inspiring, and wholesome, than the journey towards them. On the subject of 'Who does Rawat think he is?', I think he believes he's the living Perfect Master, and I believe all the folk in the inner circle treat him as such. In fact, treating him as an equal is the fast track out the door. He doesn't know what it's like to be normal. Apparently when he has to deal with the general public, one to one, he doesn't do too well. Someone told me he often gets ignored in shops etc. He seems to lack some presence. Anyway, he can't be happy with what's happening to his 'mission'. The numbers are falling, funds are dwindling. As more people discover what he's been up to, the process accelerates. We had a visit from an old-time premie last year (you know him from the Education Ashram). We'd lived in the ashram together, and he was the local community rep. I gave a copy of my 'journey', and lots of Michael Dettmers stuff. He sat down for an hour, read it, and immediately quit. He was like a ripe apple, dropping from a tree. That's the wonderful thing about getting your life back and leaving a cult- it's all a completely natural process. We just have to sit back and enjoy the ride. Anth the flat tire.

Subject: The Here After From: Gregg To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:07:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here, after the cult. Y'all are right, the post-Prem experience is a wonderful one - and kudos for recognizing the good along with the bad in the so-called path of Knowledge. Others are not so lucky, you know. I'm not referring to the few doggedly committed PWK's who soldier on with a smile, sure that they are saved and that upon death they will stroll through the Final Darshan Circle to be in the Inner Circle forever, laughing at the poor deluded fools over at EPO. I'm thinking of the billions of people around the world who are one hundred percent certain that they know the One True God (or the Many True Gods, or the reality of sorcerers and evil potions, or whatever). They live without opening fully to what the world has to offer, because their belief requires them to abjure other ways of knowing and being. Belief is the final obstacle to enlightenment.

Subject: Re: The Here After From: Tim G To: Gregg Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:04:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Belief is the final obstacle of enlightenment' I don't know about 'final' but it certainly is a mighty obstacle as it immediately divides us. So many people all think THEY know 'The Truth' or 'are saved'. What a farce. Thanx for your insight.

Subject: Englightenment From: AJW To: Tim G Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:11:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Tim, My old mum always used to say, 'Belief that there is such a thing as 'Englightenment', is the main obstacle to Enlightenment. Anth the men zonked

Subject: Can't argue with that, Anth the Sage (nt) From: Gregg To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:29:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You mean Anth the pickled onion (nt) From: AJW To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:24:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: soaking safe in my vinegar bath

Subject: Some quotes to consider From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:41:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend recently reminded me of Eric Hoffer, author of True Believer. I ate that book with a spoon in my youth. I did a search that yielded a Freedoms Nest page of Hoffer quotes. Freedoms Nest describes itself as Anti-conservative. Anti-liberal. Pro-freedom. Sounds good to me. Here's a few sample quotes that are applicable here. ____________________________________________________ FAITH Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves. It needs fanatical faith to rationalize our cowardice. Those of little faith are of little hatred. FANATICISM Add a few drops of malice to a half truth and you have an absolute truth. The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. FREEDOM The aspiration toward freedom is the most essentially human of all human manifestations. Those who lack the capacity to achieve much in an atmosphere of freedom will clamor for power. PROSELYTIZING Proselytizing is more a passionate search for something not yet found than a desire to bestow upon the world something we already have. It is a search for a final and irrefutable demonstration that our absolute truth is indeed the one and only truth. The proselytizing fanatic strengthens his own faith by converting others. TRUE BELIEVERS The impression somehow prevails that the true believer, particularly the religious individual, is a humble person. The truth is that the surrendering and humbling of the self breeds pride and arrogance. ____________________________________________________ Hmmm. Who woulda thunk it? Eric Hoffer quotes www.freedomsnest.com/qhoffer.html

Subject: Re: Some quotes to consider From: Neville To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I woulda, plenty of times. Not impressed. On the basis of those quotes I'd say Hoffer is not as clever as he thinks. How do you like this one: 'An idea is something you have; an ideology is something that has you.' --Morris Berman Neville

Subject: Re: Ideology From: Richard To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:51:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmmm, maybe I am too easily impressed as I saw truth in Hoffer's take on these subjects. Yes, I do like the Berman quote you posted. Here's my gilded lily spin on it. When an idea becomes ideology, it leads to idolatry. Richard, two bit philosopher and ideological has-been-had

Subject: No more european translation provided From: Mirror To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 06:06:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only a couple of years ago, M's programs in Europe, especially the big ones in Italy where simultaneously translated into at least 10 different languages, if not more. These days however, headsets are only practical if you speak italian. Mirror. --- --- --- --- Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak at an event in Rome. The event is reserved to those who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge. Date July 29th, at 5 PM Venue Teatro Sistina via Sistina 129 Rome, Italy Registration Priority will be given to participants from Italy, but there are a number of seats available for guests from outside of Italy. Online registration for participants from outside of Italy will be open starting from July 5th. Pre-registration is required. To register, please connect to www.bestway.info All participants coming from outside of Italy will need a Smart Card to register for the event. Translation will be provided in Italian only. For any further enquiries: cor2002@genie.it

Subject: How about translating him into English? From: Cynthia To: Mirror Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:08:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just amusing myself... Cynthia

Subject: actually Cynthia From: Jethro To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have made a salient point. And..........thanks for making me laugh. Jethro

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: CPG To: Mirror Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What seems to have escaped the attention of those on this forum is an apparent change to have programs primarily for local people, thus the smaller venues. When people are discouraged from traveling to events outside their area much smaller venues are required. Many events in the past were filled will people doing 'service' and others traveling from far away. Both of these categories have been dramatically reduced, resulting in smaller more intimate events in many cases only for local people. Thus smaller venues does not indicate a reduction in interest.

Subject: the protection of belief From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 01:07:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG, I wrote a post a few days ago describing how homeopaths rationalise to protect the supposed effectiveness of homeopathy. If it cures - great! Homeopathy works! If it doesn't cure - fine! The patient didn't respond to the treatment/needs to get worse before he can get better, etc etc. Similarly, if Maharaji holds large programmes - great! Knowledge is spreading like wildfire! If he holds small programmes - great! Lovely and intimate. In both cases, the subject of the central belief remains unthreatened and intact, saying far more about the believer's need to believe than about the authenticity of what they believe... Or has this never occurred to you? Livia

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: Bolly To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:35:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So are you saying that the objective is to have intimate gatherings of like minded sorry spirited, people who will thus be enabled to exchange views on personal growth? It sounds potentially quite interesting. People who have practised k or personal growth for some years and found the only change in their lives is that outsiders regard them as cult members could discuss this with m. The leader guru or teacher whatever could maybe reassure his followers that the past thirty years have not been an excersize in growing his own bank balance, but in benefiting humanity. Somehow I doubt that is his objective. All venues cost and if there is no guaranteed return m is not going to rent a place just to break even and go away feeling warm inside. Warm feelings don't keep that lifestyle afloat hard cash does. Explain why there are less people travelling and doing service, is it because there are more people telling m to take a hike? Is it that even active and sincere attendees are beggining to feel just a little bit ridiculous about bowing down at the feet of a mediocre has been listening to a lot of tosh about rolex watches and whatever plane the guy flies? Enjoy your life CPG it might be the only one you get. Think about what Mike Finch has written in his open letter it makes a lot of sense. All the best Bolly

Subject: This is a great comment, Bolly: From: An outsider To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 19:12:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'People who have practised k or personal growth for some years and found the only change in their lives is that outsiders regard them as cult members could discuss this with m.' Stonor (a family name)

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: CPG To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 17:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whatever M's real incentive is to do smaller more intimate events obviously doesn't interest you, but anyone with a hint of understanding of basic economics would see that large events make more money than small events. I have worked at a lot of events and have seen the full final costs and revenue of many different types. The kinds that made the most were 'mega' events, multi day events that he stopped doing years ago in the US. The under 1000 people events struggle to break even, as costs per person are so much higher. Plus if he ever personally profited from an event the IRS would close down Elan Vital and prosecute Maharaji at least by the next yearly audit. As to why there are so many fewer people doing service, its because M drastically reduced the number of people doing service- I was one of many whose position was eliminated. As i understand him, it is his desire to simplify the operations, and to have mostly people there to listen at events, not to work at them. In the past many smaller events were mostly people doing service; it was ridiculous. People aren't traveling to the non-local events as much because he isn't advertising them, and they likely couldn't get in if they did come. I can understand a some of the critisism on here, but this argument of having events to make money is just not an intelligent argument. He has astounded me for years by doing primarily events that are destined to lose money, at least until some deep-pocketed premie bails it out to a break-even only after the event. First of all, if he has the kind of wealth claimed on EPO event revenue is peanuts to him and legally untouchable. Secondly if he did have events to generate cash he would have mutli day events in the US and Europe only. Why do small events at all; why do events in any third-world countries where he spends a considerable amount of time, where they can't even pay fully for the event costs. Think a little before posting this kind of drivel. I am enjoying my life and hope you are too. Cheers

Subject: Re: No more european translation provided From: Bolly To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi CPG You make it sound like he does it from the goodness of his heart. Do you ever go to regular theatre productions? For the Ł35 'donation' to attend the Barbican event you could pay on the day and enjoy at least 3 performances by proffessional actors. Enjoy the words of great writers and get a drink in the bar. My local theatre doesn't search the patrons so if the performance fails to please I am free to shoot the actors, can't do that at a marj gig so where's the fun? Did you get a redundancy payout after years of faithfull service? All the best Bolly

Subject: Events losing Rawat's gain From: Jean-Michel To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 09:07:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've also been involved in dozens and maybe more events' administration, and I can tell you why events are so costly ! Because of the huge costs of the master's housing (and other expenses due to his 'special' personnality, NEEDS etc), and to the huge fees of Visions' people and other administrators/coordinators of the master's party. Do you have any idea of the amount of these invoices ? Would EV (who claims transparency on his websites) publish the detail of each event's budget ? I bet not. The renting of the hall and the actual expenses in the city where the events happen is a small fraction of an event's cost, believe me. The rest goes straight to EV/Visions account, and the cash is carried by the members' of the master's party ($10,000 each).

Subject: Re: Events losing Rawat's gain From: CPG To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:47:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: More misinformation...i know EXACTLY what those invoices are from many many events. Visions doesn't get paid for events...an unaffiliated production company does for certain technical services...I have figured out their hourly charges and they are well below industry standards. Those few guys are full time and have to eat and pay rent too. The personal expenses are certainly not budget rooms, but more like corporate rooms. These two items together still make only a small tho significant dent in the budget. There are the same expenses as at any kind of event- hall rental, equipment rental, subcontractors, ticketing, etc etc. It adds up fast, even with primarily volunteer labor, and even tho especially lately there have been efforts at severe cost cutting. EV gets whats left over, which often is nothing, and Visions gets nothing...they recieve revenue from video sales and now broadcast support. The IRS has access to all of these figures and audits regularily....They are not shy about shutting non-profits down at the slightest irregularity. Are these bogus statements innocent missinformation or a sorry attempt at a smear? Bollys previous response to me shows clearly he isn't interested in the truth; the response had nothing to do with the issue and was barely legible.

Subject: You don't know anything I guess From: Jean-Michel To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 00:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much is a video charged when showed at an 'event' with Mr Rawat ?

Subject: To CPG-event promotion From: The Falcon To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 01:47:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although I am certain that Maharaji still makes his money from donations and ,of course, 'investments' (The Perfect Investor??)don't try and tell me that the upcoming public event at The Barbican in London for Ł35 per head is a lost-leader, I know a lot about event promotion and production and can assure you that a capacity audience at this event will generate a profit of approx 45% of the total revenue. One proviso though, the captain's fee for services rendered entered under 'travel expenses' (one must have an experienced pilot after all, even if the speaker is boring you've still got to get him there and the 'dog and pony show' is what they all want-that is their drug)could swiftly gobble this up in excellent tax-free and legal fashion. How much do you donate on a monthly basis (I don't expect an answer)?, let's say Ł100 for the average PWK in UK from the hardcore '70s brigade (1000 at most) whose kids have grown up and actually have a disposable income, none of the K-Lite lot will donate much so there is no point factoring them in,this is Ł100,000 per month from the Old ( and I do mean old) Colonials alone. To maintain this level of personal donations, and I know from my 'devotee' pals from this brigade that theirs are personal donations, he must keep the show on the road just like The Rolling Stones (very undignified). Remember, Maharaji has some very smart advisers who have helped him go from guru to 'investor' very successfully, do you not think that they have covered this base as well. The smart move for any businessman is to keep the core revenue rolling because, as it says on all Financial Services advertising in UK, 'investments can go up and down' Loving Life with gratitude placed in the right place. The Falcon (out looking for rabbits)

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: CPG To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 17:55:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know a lot about event promotion and yet you assume all events have the exact same fixed costs and profit margin??? uh huh. My ten year old could figure out that is hogwash. Please xplain how Rawat profits personnaly from events, by charging for his flying services or whatever, and gets this by the IRS? You know this for a fact, yet the IRS which has full access to EV books and are trained accounting investigators can't figure this out? They live to bust people like this. If he is such a good investor why would he break the law for peanuts? Does anyone really buy this crap???

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: The Falcon To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:20:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have replied below to you and Gerry but just some examples;- Al Capone Rajneesh Sun Myung Moon next........???? I am sure your 10 year old will figure out that Maharaji is the real hogwash, how will you feel about that. ground him/her, stop the pocket money, therapy?? Keep your kids out of this discussion, have some respect for innocence.

Subject: Re: To CPG-event promotion From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 18:57:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If he is such a good investor why would he break the law for peanuts? Does anyone really buy this crap??? You pals of Prem say he's a good investor. I think he's a con man who made his millions on the backs of devotee's labor and donations. I have no problem believing this 'good investor' makes money out of these events. And given his demonstrated willingness to break the law, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were 'tax irregularities' involved in this 'event' scam.

Subject: Re: To CPG and Gerry From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 25, 2002 at 08:13:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Gerry, you took the words out of my mouth, I have never felt that M. is/was a good investor, just advised well. I would like to meet CPG's 10 year old, is he lined up for SK yet? CPG, not all events have the the same M.O. just the professional ones, I am so pleased to have rattled your cage. Without malice!!! You are dealing with a very greedy 'master' (who loves 'peanuts')and your 'heart' must know that.

Subject: Venue Teatro Sistina From: PatD To: Mirror Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 18:07:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,the days when he could fill the Palazzo delle Sporte are gone. He won't give up though.I hink I might be starting to feel sorry for him,he's fucked up in spades & the people who go to see him are just encouraging the delusion. I was.

Subject: This is good news! From: JHB To: Mirror Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:50:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The fewer people who can understand what he says the better:) I sent them an email asking if translation into Latvian is available. John

Subject: Programme in UK. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:05:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, I heard the Captain is jetting to boost the falling morale of the declining flock of faithful in the UK in a couple of weeks. I think this is the 'Closing the Stable Door After the Horse Has Bolted' Tour. Ah well, one positive aspect of the falling numbers is, at least the remaining cult-drones will be able to sit nearer the front,- but not near enough to smell the cognac I fear. Anth, Salvage and Recycled Wood To Order.

Subject: Re: This is good news! From: Vicki To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 14:59:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They trying to keep everyone but the locals from coming?

Subject: Re: This is good news! From: JHB To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 15:08:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They trying to keep everyone but the locals from coming? --- Vicki, No, they want everyone to come but all the translators have become ex-premies:) John.

Subject: re: beware not an ex From: Not an ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 22:34:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the warning. But I find alot of eloquent, humorous and well thought out posts here. Alot of hatred too, but I understand that everyone has to work that out and it's great that you are here for each other. I already have many doubts, and I haven't read anything here that I haven't heard before. I am not an ex but I wouldn't call myself a premie either. I don't think I ever thought of Maharaji as the Lord of the universe, but I have had alot of experiences and can't deny that when listening to him, something still rings true for me. I don't particularly like him as a person and haven't for some time. I'm not interested in supporting him or his message anymore - been there, done that, but don't feel any hatred or regrets either. I feel alot of good has come from this experience, and life is flying by - I don't want to waste any more time on what could have been. I don't associate much with premies anymore, but always go to see Maharaji when he does a program in my area. emperor's new clothes

Subject: Re: re: beware not an ex From: Thorin To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 13:53:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Not Lots of resonance there - thanks for posting. Obviously in life we all have regrets - some big, some small. Hindsight is a great healer. If I was given the choice again I would still sign up for following my basic instincts, becoming involved in whatever aided my basic instincts and keeping true to my basic instincts. I also come to recognise a basic weakness that I have in being able to be persuaded to follow a path that does not align with my natural instincts - a path that corrupts that natural instinct, a path that does not allow me to become fulfilled as is my natural right. Like many here I am sure you will recognise that the path deemed by Maharaji has hurt plenty for many. There is a need for many to reconcile what has happened over many years to what they believe and know to be true. So yes, lots of eloquence, lots of hatred, lots of questions, lots of thoughts - all proof positive that a reconciliation to the natural instinct we have is being played out. I sense that you are basically a very true person to yourself, true to your family and friends and, perhaps, wish to engage with others. The experience you have had is true and real, it was (and still remains so) true for me - the attibution was false, IMO. I am graudully coming to terms with that false attibution, trying to fully understand it. Please do post again soon, I feel you have a lot to offer many here. If it helps, choose a new screen name and explore with us some of your experiences, some of your journey. You have something valuable to contribute. Expect to listened to, and also expect to be challenged, welcome that challenge, it is after all only words and ideas. Thorin

Subject: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 06:28:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, You say in your post that, 'The experience you have had is true and real, it was (and still remains so) true for me'. I'm interested in discussing this, if you're up for it. First- isn't every 'experience' true? Experiences are what happen to living things. How can they be 'false'? This leads me onto my second point, which is to question the interpretation of your experience of 'knowledge', because I've come to realise that one of the things that keeps a premie trapped in Rawat's cult is what he or she believes about what they see when they press their eyeballs, hear when they stick their thumbs in their ears, taste when they stick their tongue back, and feel when they concentrate on their breathing. So Thorin, what do you believe that 'light' is that you see when you practice? What do you believe the taste is when you stick your tongue back? What do you believe happens when you follow your breath and stick your thumbs in your ears? Of course there is an experience there, and it's a real, true experience. But what is it an experience of? Is it really our true, deepest, inner self- the 'light of God' as it was once called, or the 'Holy Name', as we were told? I just did the 'light' technique (I can't remember which number it is.) I still see the same bright light I saw when I was a believer. It's the same experience I always had. The only difference is I don't believe any more. I still see it. And anything can be beautiful if you look at it hard enough and suspend judgement ahout it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. Anth the belief

Subject: Re: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:50:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AJW Always happy to engage, thanks for the q's. First off I simply do not know the answers to your excellent questions - I gave up long ago in trying to 'formulate' answers, all I have left are questions :) No, I am being quite honest here. I do not have any answers and do not wish to have any answers. My own personal history has shown that each and every time I come up with any answers they will, in time, be shown to be false and generally misleading - leading me up a blind alley that I need to walk back down again. Prior to receiving knowledge I had lots of answers to the deep meaning of life and these answers I had proved quite useful and sufficient for my purposes generally but was not wholly complete. Like many I bumped into a premie, saw a poster, heard something on the radio (whatever) and was curious. This curiosity led me to a program and then some. I was initially appalled by what I saw (a bunch of unkempt sad hippies, reeking of dope singing their arses of to a little fat Indian kid) but yet a lot of the words that were being spoken struck true and I hung around, received K, and floated around for 24 odd years - until about 3 years ago. All the stuff we believed in (The Lord has come, the grace, SatGuru, the meditation ....) proved just another useful construct through which, apparently, the answers were provided. However I am now clear that this was just another 'construct' that proved at first very powerful but then in time lost its usefulness. Added to this is the extreme discomfort I began to feel in following a person that was directly complicit in things I find morally unjustifiable. Prior to receiving the techniques of meditation I thought that receiving K was some form of initiation ceremony that was, somehow, divinely endowed. Receiving K (or rather being shown 4 second hand yogic techniques) was a big drip for me. However I had, up to that point, invested a considerable amount of time being 'aspirated' and with, doubt firmly suppressed, I continued. Like many I adapted to suit the times and also adapted my view of M but inherently believed him to be the Perfect Master as it suited the construct that was presented, the world view that seemed all encompassing and viable. That was until about three years ago (August 99) when I first came across EPO and realised, woke up to the fact I had been living in a construct, a falsehood and was following a man that had little (if any) personal morals or ethics. The relief of disengaging from him was very positive. Why am I saying all this? Well it comes back to the yogic techniques of meditation and why I came to this thing in the first place. 'Doing' the meditation has, I feel been beneficial to me and has continued to be beneficial to me. But, and now I am getting to your questions, I do not feel practising the light technique, for example, is 'looking' at God. God I tried for many years to believe this to be the case. I believe, that what we see when we practise the light technique is simply electrical impulses directly due to pressing ones eyeballs. Similarly with say nectar - post nasal drip ...... However, for whatever reason, something happens that I find rewarding. It is an experience like many other experiences; it all comes down to choice. Other 'real and true' experiences are, lets choose a few examples at random, getting drunk, having an orgasm, sleeping, being shouted at by ones boss, having a conversation, being angry, listening to music..... It is all about choices, I don't like getting angry so try not to, and I like getting slightly pissed but no longer like getting dead drunk. I certainly like having orgasms. In the same way I like having the 'experience' gained from using some thousand year old meditation techniques. I find that by using them the impact it has on me has a deeply calming affect, some profound experiences seem to come through and other apparently 'divine' things. However I have no illusions about all this and I do not wish or want to develop a construct that purports to show this to be 'the hand of god'. I simply have no evidence that this is the case. Purely rationally I would tend to believe in the scientific explanation in that 'this experience' is a neurotheological experience caused by a peculiar but rather wonderful set of complex chemical reactions in my brain. Obviously the meditation techniques are horribly wrapped up, in our minds, with Knowledge which itself is horribly wrapped up with M. Disassociating all this has been very difficult. The easier way out was to simply stop meditating (and which incidentally I have done several times since 1973/4) and forget all about it. However I do enjoy whatever it is that comes about from meditating and wish to continue doing so. My challenge is to finally throw off any final associations meditation has with FatGuru (oh sorry that was a type!). Perhaps an easier way was to collect a bunch of other techniques and use them - however I like these ones and have practiced them so feel reasonably comfortable with them. It would be nice if there was an easier way - maybe I should get one of those helmet thingies. Anyway a long unnecessary rambling post responding to some simple questions you posed. There are no 'false' experiences, just lifestyle choices leading to 'experiences'. Cheers, Thorin

Subject: Re: Thorin, about this 'experience' From: Robyn To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 20:20:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Thorin, Lordy, I just posted a reply and it was eaten by cyber-demons! Basicly I just said that I still meditate on light but haven't used my hands in many years. Sometimes it just starts as I am trying to fall asleep. Once it got so intense and wonderful that I tried to stop it so I could sleep and couldn't. If I am meditating and nothing is happening I will sometimes put the tip of my index finger on 'my third eye' to help me focus there but that is it so no pressing of the optic nerve to explain away the experience I have which is quite wonderful and yes, calming. Just so you know, I don't think of it as god either. I always thought of it as just something that people, and goodness knows maybe animals can do. Hi Anth. Love, Robyn

Subject: Hi Robyn (ot) From: AJW To: Robyn Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:05:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Robyn, Hope all is well with you and yours. I think of you every time I reach for the Ricola tin. (about every ten minutes). 'Ricola. Bonbon Suisse aux plantes. Bienfaisant. Adoucissant. Rafraichissant' Take care Anth the Adoucissant

Subject: Re: Hi Robyn (ot) From: Robyn To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 19:48:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Anth, Yes, I am 'thinking' of you now! I've had a crazy week and am just getting home from work at 11pm. One more day and then it is supposed to be a great weekend weather wise. :) I'll find a creek and a rock and bring my ricola tin and think of you. :) Hope all is well with you and yours also. Hey, I can't find it if I wrote it down but you mentioned once a children's series similar but you thought better then the Harry Potter series. I want to see if I can get it for my nephew. I am also VERY patienly waiting for your next installment or do I have to wait and by the book! :) Seriously though, it was great. Love, Robyn the knackered and learning English as my 2nd language :)

Subject: Thanks Thorin. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:09:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Thanks for that honest and thoughtful post. You story sounds similar to my own. (I've put a link in.) Do you have any consciousness, or awareness of having been in, or maybe still being in a Moonie type cult? (I hope you don't mind me digging around like this. Say so if you do.) I just read your post again, and you mentioned a 'drip', so maybe you read my Journey already. On the subject of doing the techniques, have you ever tried giving them up for a few months and seeing what happened? If you did, what happened? Also Thorin, you said you didn't have any answers to my questions, and that you didn't want any either. Why is that? Would it make any difference if the patterns you see when you press your eyes are simply retinal activity stimulated by pressing your eyeball? Would it matter if the sound you heard when you did the 'sound technique' was only blood rushing over your eardrums? (Ever put a seashell to your ear and heard the sea?) If it did turn out to be as I suggest, it wouldn't change the experience would it? Come on Thorin, give it a bash. What do you think those bloody patterns are that you see when you press your eyes? Anth the beligerantly persistant.

Subject: Re: Thanks Thorin. From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:47:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Anth (the beligerantly persistant!) Time is short at the moment - two daughters clamouring for my attention! - so gotta rush a response if you don't mind. Did I ever feel I was in a cult like the Moonies? Yep always. In fact a far worse cult than the Moonies as they were so odd and OTT that it was easy to recognise them as a cult. Whareas with M and premiedom there was (and still is) an insidious makeover that pretends to be normal and that is used for the bait and switch move that traps many. I did read your 'journey' some time ago (BTW you did not insert the link as you said u wud) and will read your good stuff again soon. yes drips - lots of them, lots of times - but you know what it is like - never leave room for doubt, believe in the purity of the master blah blah. All the usual stuff that held me in a state of suspended disbelief for so many years. Re the techniques. I thought my previosu post was quite clear but apparently not. Yes the experience of the light technique is only as a direct consequence of retinal activity. Only as a result of pressing eyeballs, nothing more. It is NOT divinely ordained or an experience of the supreme primordial energy (what ever the heck that may be!). If anyone would want to debate with me and state that it is anything more I would have problems with that assertion. However, for whatever reason yet to be explained properly by science, meditating, for me, proves to be useful. Yes I could come up with some hypothysis (sp?) that explains why meditation is useful and perhaps if proper research was applied this hypothysis could turn into theory. I am, however, not a scientist and have other more important things to do so choose not to go down the road of proving anything. I have no allusions about meditation - they are just techniques (alhough pretty powerful at that) and pretty much any technique will do. If standing in a bucket of salt water does it then I would do that. :) Give up meditating. Oh yes many times and for long periods. What happened? Nothing much drastic - I simply did not meditate. Life continued quite merrily, my world did not fall about, the moon continued its usual orbit - I did not experience the particular calm and depth that comes from meditation. I come back to meditation because it is enjoyable, because it is an useful yogic exercise. It is a lifestyle choice (as I mentioned before)- without it life is still great - particularly now I do not or will not follow some bankrupt belief system expoused by Mr Rawat. Anth, if it is labels you want I am firmly an EX (as many here will testify), your posts to me seem to indicate that you think I am holding onto some belief system that is not good for me. When I said I did not want to come up with answers it was in relation to the meaning of life, the purpose of our existance. M supposedly gives answers to this, I now know this is not the case and having 'looked around' elsewhere see that no one else provides such asnswers. I can give lots of answers to rational questions, like 2+2=? or what happens if you press your eyballs. For me life, now, is just getting on with it. Part of the joy is the slaying of the q&a sessions. warmly, Thorin

Subject: The stick. From: AJW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks again Thorin. You're right. I did get misled by your answer. Also, I'm a bit out of touch with who's who on the forum at the moment. So thanks for clearing all that up. Anth the dropping penny.

Subject: Re: The carrot From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 23:42:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth When you have the time let me know what you think meditation is and what is 'that experience' Some people report having deep and profound experiences when in the presence of Mr Rawat. What are these experiences? How much is internally generated by the 'experiencer' and how much of this comes from some sort of 'power' that Rotwat has? Thanks, Thorin Start a new thread with your 'answers' - this thread is getting buried fast.

Subject: A question not an ex From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:35:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi notan ex Do you believe there is such a thing as a Perfect Master? Anth the Perfect Plaster.

Subject: Re: A question not an ex From: Not an ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:59:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, I really don't know. I thought I did, I thought I devoted my life to him. But now they are all just words. Without going into a long history, I've had knowledge for 24 years - long enough to have heard all of the lord of the universe, arti, surrender the reigns of your life, etc. I was looking for someone to surrender to at the time. I got completely into it - ashram, lots of service - I thought I was home. And I was fine as a humble little ashram premie - happy & having a great experience. But as I climbed the ladder of premie success (ie. getting closer to M personally), the political bullshit was too much for me. The ashrams closed for good & I kept doing service, but like I said earlier, the more I saw of M as a person, the more I didn't like him. the more I remembered that divine connection I felt with a higher power before I received K, the more I knew he wasn't it. But that was when he was saying that he wasn't god anymore, so I was in sync. I got married & had kids and stayed in touch - went to programs when I could and practised K. Still felt that the experience was a positive one. I never understood his lifestyle, my brain would start to short-circuit everytime I tried to think about it. But I'm sure everyone has had teachers in their lives who were real asses, but you were still able to learn from them. I can't deny that my life is for the better from being involved with M. I know you guys don't like to hear that here which is why I never posted. But I'm entitled to my feelings, just as I respect yours. Even though they may be the strangest people I've ever met, I have always had great respect for premies (and exes), because at least they were trying to pursue something real. Maybe we are not as rich financially as our neighbors, or we didn't start our 401K's as early as we should have, but we were trying to experience something real. I don't feel like I was conned, or that this is a scam, or that i am a fool for being open to what he may have to say. I have to follow my gut feelings just like I have done all along. I get most of my info from this website. That's how I heard about TPRF, and Amaroo, and the closing of Visions. So you can all start attacking now if you want to. Sorry I couldn't answer your question.

Subject: Re: A question not an ex From: Bolly To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 14:32:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say you have the greatest respect for premies and exes because at least they are persuing something real. Most of the human race is persuing something real, trying to survive. I don't know any recent members of the fold, but in the early days a high proportion of the people getting conned by m were motivated by a real desire not just for personal happiness, whatever that is but also as a route to greater understanding and peace on earth. It sounds niave now to say that when all the peace demos and and what have you seemed to lead nowhere a little fat boy saying look inside was worth a try. Yes premies and exes were persuing something real, we just forgot to ask m what he expected to get out of it. Had we done so he might have replied, that by subverting our idealism to serve his material comforts on earth he was getting a ticket to easy street and keeping the likes of us off the highways and byways thus giving space for his flash cars to cruise along. We would then have known that following m was not going to lead anywhere near where we wanted to go. Sadly once in the fold the blinkers come into play and all the otherwise repugnant elements of the movement are deemed to be somehow beyond our understanding. Yes premies and exes do want truth, but what about m? The boy just wanted to have fun now he should grow up and come clean, get real he might enjoy it. All the best, Bolly

Subject: Experience and Reality. From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:30:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi not an ex, Thanks for that honest response. In what way is your life better for being involved with Rawat? Have you ever looked at your situation from the perspective of you being in a cult, like the Moonies for example? Would you say that a Moonie's life could be better for being involved with the Rev. Moon? (I guess maybe it could, but they must have had a really awful life before.) Also, your comments about, maybe we're not financially too well off, but at least we were trying to experience something 'real'. Are you suggesting that people who pursue 'normal' lives and don't join cults are not experiencing something 'real', even though they have families, jobs, and the usual burden of being a human being to carry? I hope you don't mind me asking you questions like this. I'm not trying to criticise you or have a go at you. I get the feeling you're emerging from the cult, like a butterfly from a chrysalis. I'll be interested to hear what you've got to say. Anth the Inquisitor

Subject: Re: Experience and Reality. From: Not an ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:28:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I don't look at it from the perspective of being in a cult. There is nothing holding me here. I don't have a fear of leaving because there is nothing to leave. It seems to me like everyone posting here are sensitive, intelligent people. It's hard to believe that all of you would have been involved for so many years if it was only a cult or a scam. I also can't believe that Maharaji, at eight years old concocted this plan of becoming a multi-millionaire off of the contributions of a bunch of suckers that he was about to con. There was an experience there, something that drew us all in in the first place, and kept us there for many years. You don't stay with something for 30 years just on hype alone. Anyway, I know I can't win in a debate with you guys, so it's best I don't get into it. For every point I make, there will be ten of you attacking it, and I don't have the time to spend here. I do appreciate your being civil. I do enjoy reading here and so do other PWKS. Enjoy life.

Subject: Hey Not an ex. From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:19:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, I don't look at it from the perspective of being in a cult. There is nothing holding me here. I don't have a fear of leaving because there is nothing to leave. It seems to me like everyone posting here are sensitive, intelligent people. It's hard to believe that all of you would have been involved for so many years if it was only a cult or a scam. I also can't believe that Maharaji, at eight years old concocted this plan of becoming a multi-millionaire off of the contributions of a bunch of suckers that he was about to con. There was an experience there, something that drew us all in in the first place, and kept us there for many years. You don't stay with something for 30 years just on hype alone. Anyway, I know I can't win in a debate with you guys, so it's best I don't get into it. For every point I make, there will be ten of you attacking it, and I don't have the time to spend here. I do appreciate your being civil. I do enjoy reading here and so do other PWKS. Enjoy life. --- Hey Not an ex, Don't rush off in the middle of the conversation. I was just starting to enjoy it. You did start this thread after all. And I don't think anyone is attacking you yet. Are they? In fact, everyone has been very polite and so far allowed us to chat uninterrupted. Chill out. Relax. Nobody's out to do you any harm here. So, you say you can't believe we could have been involved for so long if it was a cult or a scam? The same logic could be applied to Moonies, or Hare Krishna people, who have been in their cults for 20 or 30 years. If they have been in so long, how can they be in cults? And I agree with your view that Rawat couldn't have planned his scam at the age of 8 or whatever. I don't see him like this at all. As I said elsewhere on the forum, I see him more like a Michael jackson type character, brought into the business very young and fucked up by it. But that's another story. There was definitely something that drew us in, I agree. And I agree you don't keep going on hype alone. There's also a social structure, programming, and of course Faith. They all keep you going. So we don't seem so far apart on this one. My only contention is your argument that if you're in something for a long time, it must be OK. Anth, enjoying wife, life, strife, and fife, but given up on the afterlife.

Subject: Re: Hey Not an ex. From: Not a troll To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:11:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below I was called a troll by gerry (administrator) and asked to leave, so I am leaving peacefully. I have enjoyed posting with you though. The thing I don't understand is the intro to forum 7 states that it is a forum for debate about Maharaji & related topics. Do you have to Hate Maharaji to post here? If so what is to debate? He accused me of trying to start a fight and disrupt the forum. I don't understand where that happened. Sorry, but I guess I'm in the wrong place. Take care.

Subject: Re: Hey Not a troll From: AJW To: Not a troll Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 13:17:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your post is quite confusing. Are you the person I was talking to, 'Not an ex', or are you someone joining in our conversation. If you're the person who I was talking to, please remember your virtual manners and stick to a single name. OK, if gerry asked you to leave, why did you start another thread? You seem to be dodging the questions here. If you're not the person I was talking to, well you should leave the forum as requested. Anth, not a lump of cheese.

Subject: Welcome Not an ex From: Richard To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:11:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your candor. It is refreshing to hear someone stating their situation honestly and without needing to attack. I spent years in a similar mindset as yourself. For myself, I left M&K for seven years as a result of much personal work. I simply realized I no longer required an authority figure in my life. Nostalgia for the good ol' days brought me back via the Long Beach events for a few years. However, I could not reconcile the cognitive dissonance between what M was saying and the reality of an obvious devotional path. What he says is that he is merely a teacher and it is all about one's individual experience. What it is about in reality is unquestioned devotion to M. Congratulations on deciding for yourself what you can accept and what you must reject. Discrimination is a good thing to nurture. Best wishes to you on your continuing journey. Richard

Subject: thanks Not From: also not an ex To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 02:57:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: could't express my position any better. And I don't think it is a 'need' to go see him, as Pat wrote in his answer, it is rather a 'why not' if I can get in without paying...

Subject: You sound like a guy I knew From: AJW To: also not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:34:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You sound like a guy I knew when I was a teacher in London. One Christmas London Transport layed the buses and tubes on for free. He planned his whole Christmas day on a route map, and must have travelled over 100 all day, just because it was free. I felt sorry for the guy, but I don't feel sorry for you whoever you are, because I'm sure you're a nice person really. I'm sure you get my drift, 'There must be a better reason to go and see the Living Perfect Master than, 'It's free,''. And anyway, you get hit for a massive donation before you get in. Anth the pedantic

Subject: 'why not' if I can get in without paying [nt] From: PatC - thanks for the chuckle To: also not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:04:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Beware I'm an ex-premie From: PatC To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 01:44:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Grrr! Woof! Great post Not. You are describing my situation to a tee a few years ago. But I warned you - I'm an ex so I don't have any affection left for Rev Rawat. Doesn't some of the dirt about him bother you? I know the hit and run bothered me a lot. I only found out about that after I exed. (I left becaue I went back in after a long abscence and found out that the organization was sick.) But that was the clincher for me. Any remaining affection for him was immediately destroyed. I hope you don't feel too incomfortable not liking him but still needing him. I think that was the worst part of being ''not an ex'' for me for the last few years. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Subject: Ex-ness From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:33:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting hearing about the degrees of ex-ness...how we describe ourselves to feel about Prem Pal Rawat. Is there a spectrum from love to hate, with fawning sycophants on one end and Jagdeo victims on the other? I guess 'not an ex' would fall right in the middle. I'm one of those 70's premies who left in the dead of the night long ago and never looked back. Until the wan light of the dying embers of the Twentieth Century inspired someone to invent the Ex-Premie Forum, that is.

Subject: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:51:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I received notification yesterday that an electronic greeting card I supposedly sent arrived. It was a stupid, animated thing referring to 'the guru'. It wasn't even funny. But anyway, the point is, I didn't send it. Someone sued my email address and claimed to be me. I only found out because the site automatically advises the -- supposed -- sender. I didn't recognize the recipient's email address but I did email him or her saying the card wasn't for me. As for the site, I emailed them and this was their response: Hello , Thank you for contacting eGreetings.com Customer Service. Your message indicated that you did NOT send a card. When our customers use our service, they are asked to fill in their Email addresses. It appears that our customer has made a mistake doing this and the Email address used belongs to you. Unfortunately, the only way we are able to contact our customer is by using the email address they have provided which, in this case is yours! I apologize for you getting emails that you do not want. Hopefully, this customer will not make the same mistake again. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We apologize for your inconvenience. Thank you, Evy Your Customer Care Agent egreetings.com

Subject: you've been spoofed From: Salam To: Jim Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: means fuck all to you of course. This is what you do. right click on the e-mail, you will get a window,scroll down to property, click. another piece of crap come up. click on the tab saying details. you see the e-mail header. maximise the window and read. you are looking for a return path some thing like Received: from xxxxxx .134.64.90]) by loc01.****xxx with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.647.64); Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:28:58 +1000 Received: from outmta011.topica.com ([64.125.140.220]) by mx01.iprimus.com.au with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:28:54 +1000 To: salam_au@ From: Human Rights Watch Subject: Human Rights Watch Logo Design Competition Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <58429.700000877.436921124-1463792126-1024093723@topica.com> Errors-To: Reply-To: webadmin@hrw.org X-Topica-Id: <1024093702.svc004.28163.1000641> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-Path: list-errors.700000877.58429.819802166.008.0.1@boing.topica.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jun 2002 22:28:54.0936 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE1EA980:01C213F2] of course you need to contact the person that recieved the e-mail and ask them to do the same. In their e-mails there should be a return path and a 'probable' return path. the probable return path is the path for the spoofer. Spoofing is illegal just like breaking into bulliten boards if you know what I mean. The act is punishable by law. You need to get a copy of the header, then being a lawyer you need to write a letter to your isp that you have been spoofed. You also need to make sure that you certainly don't have a trojan on your computer, ie download the latest security patch and run it. If you have understood what i've said, your isp will take your cause and traces back to where the original e-mail came from. This is a highly dangerous practice because as a lawyer, you will have someone evasdropping on your e-mails. Normally that happens if the person is after some particular information, like passwords or confidential information. It a weakness in the smtp protocol that form part of the communication suit on the internet. My advice is that you chase this to the limit and get the prick, also notify everyone you know that this could be happening and if it does then for them to take action. Also get an e-mail account with someone that provides it, like yahooo. Keep it strickly private. Make that get a lot of e-mails and make them private. to others reading this, do the same, you've all been spoofed or willbe without knowing it, trust me, there is a hacker around as jhb will confirm.

Subject: example of a spoof From: Salam To: Salam Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 08:49:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is an example of a spoofed e-mail From: salam_au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=BETOW7l13046J8e2q961L8S2Kp X-Apparently-From: spoofer@isp.com you are looking for the underlined part. Must say, bit scarry init.

Subject: Someone tried to use my Yahoo account... From: Cynthia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 07:02:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim, I received a message this morning in my Yahoo email from the folks who administer that account telling me that the address to which I send an email to failed. I didn't use my Yahoo (the sylviecyn@yahoo.com) yesterday at all and that's when the mail was sent under my account name. The email which was supposedly undeliverable had a 'jai' in the name...the subject title was 'EndGame,' and no message I've been getting spam from someone in Germany for over a month, too. Nothing viral, no message except for one, and all had to do with playing games. I've written to Yahoo explaining that I didn't use my email yesterday, don't know that particular email adressee, and that someone is apparently trying to send emails using my address. What a co-inkydink, you think?

Subject: No one tried to log in to your account From: JHB To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 00:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cynthia, These virus emails often have a false return address, whether that has been deliberately put there, or has automatically lifted from someone's address book. So if an email can't be delivered, then the delivery failure message is sent to the fake return address. It doesn't mean anyone has got into your account. John.

Subject: Re: No one tried to log in to your account From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 05:52:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks John, I didn't think they could get into my account but they used my email address as the sender...is that possible?

Subject: Re: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Zelda To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 21:19:05 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Jim would you post that greeting card here? or send it to >extrixie@hotmail.com< it sounds familiar. nuff said. let me know here if you do

Subject: Re: Fake electronic greeting cards From: Jim To: Zelda Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 12:22:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm at Laurie's but I'll send it to you when I get home.

Subject: 'THANKS FOR THAT' From: Dermot To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 21:51:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to bother you all.....but if you check out a post on Symposium entitled 'thanks for that' you'll notice on the outside that it's posted by Salam. If you click open the post, though, you'll see it's posted by 'Quiet'. Also the post is written in the usual 'Q' persona etc. HO HUM. Also it's been verified this very night 'Salam', 'Q' and 'Riopell' have been using the very same IP number. I could well imagine 'q' being Roupell but didn't figure 'Q' was also Salam. Yep I was sceptical. Apparently though if you make a mistake and try to edit a name, the name inside remains the same. I experimented myself to be absolutely sure. You'll therefore find a post on Symp written by 'New name' but inside it's still 'Dermot'. Now isn't that weird eh??????? Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: 'THANKS FOR THAT' From: Richard To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:27:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your honesty and expediant correction of this issue. I was definitely just totally freaking out last night as I read about all of the intrigue. To keep the excitement level up on the forum, I guess we'll just have to hang out waiting for a former PAM to come forward with compromising pix of M with a goat. :) Stay real bro, Richard

Subject: LOL Rrichard From: Dermot To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:54:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: M with a goat....a full LEADERS article all about it :) Cheers Dermot

Subject: What's that egg on my face:) From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 06:14:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Salam/Q post is the result of a technical glitch, it seems. As for IP numbers, I really haven't a clue. So I take it back...Salam is Salam....Q is Q (whoever that is:) ) and Roup is ....well, we've probably lost track of most of his aliases(I'm sure he'll give you a full list if you ask him via email) but Salam isn't one of them:) So ,sorry to all concerned for posting like a blue ass fly with unsubstantiated info. -Dermot

Subject: Re: What's that egg on my face:) From: PatC To: Dermot Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not your mistake, Dermot. It was mine. It's a glitch and I resign as FA of F7 www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=10338.80854148375

Subject: Re: What's that egg on my face:) From: Richard To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:29:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PatC, I'm certain the pressure has been tremendous on you to keep the kitchen clean on F7. I get stressed just wading through the food fights at times, not to mention the troll spam. I can't even imagine how difficult it must be to try to keep things workable for us freeloaders. I admire your honesty and passion in helping to shed light on Bhakti JuJu Maharajism. I do appreciate the efforts of youself, Gerry, John, Jean-Michel and all of the past imperfect FA's. I hope whatever you decide to do in the future, that your journey towards freedom continues to bring you resolution. Peace, love and fulfillment from one old hippie to another. Richard, Class of 2001

Subject: Ssorry, thought this fourm was LG :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 21:56:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: re: emperor's new clothes From: Not an ex To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 17:11:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with jon. I read here occasionally and it is usually to get information about up coming programs and changes happening in the premie world. You guys seem to have up to the minute accurate info & I appreciate you sharing it.

Subject: Beware 'Not an ex'. From: AJW To: Not an ex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 15:40:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear NotanEx, You should be very careful about looking at this forum. Many posts are hate-filled and may infect you with the greatest disease known to cult-members- I'm talking about doubt. Before you know it you'll be thinking for yourself again- and you know where that got you last time? In a guru worshipping cult for...How many years was it? Anth the hate-filled.

Subject: right on From: Gregg To: Not an ex Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 19:33:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for sharing. As you know, we ex-premies constantly obsess about Guru Maharaji. We never leave room for doubt in our mind as to the truth that he is the devil incarnate. Not that we believe in the devil, or any other religious construct. PWK's don't have pictures of Maharaji in their homes, I'm sure, as he is no longer the Lord. (He has, of course, apologized for anything he has said that would lead premies...sorry, PWK's...to believe this.) We ex-premies have numerous photos of the ex-Lord in our home, with swatsikas and obscenities larding his larduous images. We don't have families, jobs or meditation practices, God forbid. We devote our lives to the exworship of the living exLord. Thanks for sharing, uh...what did you say your name was?

Subject: Re: right on From: Not an ex To: Gregg Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:22:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just being honest. You guys do seem to be more focused on M than PWK's are. That's why I come here for info. There are several PWK I know who read this forum, but your nastiness & cynicism to anyone who expresses their opinions may prevent them from hearing whatever truths they may find here.

Subject: This is why we call them trolls... From: gerry To: Not an ex Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:40:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A troll is someone who tries to bait people and disrupt the forum by saying things which are untrue or, at best, gross exaggerations, ie 'There are several PWK I know who read this forum, but your nastiness & cynicism to anyone who expresses their opinions may prevent them from hearing whatever truths they may find here.' This is designed to make people defensive and to hopefully derail the conversation from the stated topic, Rawat et al into perhaps, a fight. I urge people to resist the temptation to respond to these trolls and 'not an ex,' whoever you are, be gone.

Subject: Re: This is why we call them trolls... From: I'm Gone To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 10:34:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bye bye.

Subject: Donald Duck gets a Knowledge review From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 12:35:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a Friday funny that's strictly for the birds ... click here (audio file) slonet.org/~rloomis/bloduck.wav

Subject: Very, Very, Very, Funny...LOL... [nt] From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 14:38:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: PS it's his EYEballs he's talking about (nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 13:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... isn't it?

Subject: Meditation and rehabilitation of prisoners From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:11:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This web site provides information on the Vipassana Meditation Technique, as taught by S. N. Goenka. Vipassana is a universal, scientific method towards purifying the mind. It is the practical essence of the teachings of the Buddha. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ The following web site shows the effect of Vipassana Meditation on quality of life, subjective well-being, and criminal propensity among inmates of Tihar, a maximum security jail in Delhi. Reformation of the offender is being regarded as an ultimate aim of the prison sentence. Rehabilitation of the criminals has become one of the most important objectives of the jail authorities. Apart from the criminal aspect, many inmates manifest mental disorders in prison as a result of stresses of incarceration. The stresses behind the bars include separation from their family members, over crowding, sensory deprivation, exposure to a high-density of hard-core offenders, and a variety of uncertainties, fear, and frustrations. The period of trial is of great stress to the individual. Loss of social status, uncertainty of outcome of the trial, fear of punishment, staying in an unusual place like police station or jail, and financial upsets, also harass the individual. If the trial period is prolonged for months or years which is very common, then the undertrial's mental condition usually worsens. The hard life in the prison further aggravates the situation. Psychological factors such as frustration, hostility, and feelings of helplessness might be the cause or the consequence of criminal behaviour and in some cases, both. Prison reform measures should lead to some reduction in inmate's feelings of hostility, helplessness and other negative emotions. An unfavourable attitude towards law may also be responsible for criminal behaviour and needs to be corrected in the course of reforms. On many occasions it is the feeling of alienation from the mainstream life which results from a misfit of individual goals with cultural norms and it might result in criminal activities. Since Vipassana is believed to be a technique that facilitates deeper psychological introspection and to bring about lasting behavioural changes, it was considered worth while to assess some of these changes in a scientific manner. Vipassana is being practiced in Tihar jail as a prison reform measure with the ultimate goal of prevention of crime and reintegration of prisoners into mainstream society following their discharge from prison. The main aim of the study was to investigate the effect of Vipassana meditation on Subjective Well-Being and Criminal Propensity of Tihar Jail inmates. The study has been conducted on both male (adolescent) and female inmates. Also one of the goals was to see the overall psychological bearing of Vipassana meditation on prison inmates. Vipassana is a genuine non-sectarian methodology for mind control and purification. The question arises could Vipassana work in prison. Prison life is a cursed life. In traditional sense, it is the worst life in every sense. It blocks the overall unfolding of personality. It takes away freedom from the individual. For the inmates life inside prison is bizarre, torturous, painful, unhealthy, suffocating and slave like. The purpose is to make prison life better, to add a humanistic dimension to it, to help the inmates introspect and examine themselves and possibly understand the purpose of life better. Vipassana as a meditation technique is dedicated to fulfil these higher goals of life. It is believed that Vipassana has a great role to play in transforming prison life. The positive impact of Vipassana on various aspects of mental health and personality has been reported in a number of studies and it was therefore expected that similar results would come in the case of inmates. The dimensions studied were “well being, hostility, hope, helplessness, personality, psychopathy and in the case of psychiatric disorders, anxiety and depression.” It was followed by another study, which was carried out in April 1994 on 150 subjects. The sample consisted of two groups: one group of 85 subjects who attended a 10 day Vipassana course and the other group of 65 who did not. The dimensions studied were anomie, attitude to law, personality and psychiatric illness. - Immediately after the course, the subjects were found to be less hostile towards their environment and felt less helpless. - The psychiatric patients, constituting about 23% of the total sample, reported good improvement in their anxiety and depressive symptoms. - Subjects without any psychological symptoms also reported improvement in the form of enhanced well being and a sense of hope for the future. - Their sense of alienation from the mainstream life, though unchanged immediately after the course, was found to be lower after three months. - The follow-up evaluations at three and six month intervals revealed further improvement on many of these dimensions. A series of research investigations have revealed that there are many beneficial effects of yoga, which would help in the stress management (Selvamurthy, 1993). Yoga and meditation can contribute positively to various cognitive processes, including perception and in turn, on subjective well-being, quality of life and criminal propensity. Chandiramani, Verma, Dhar, and Aggarwal (1994) have also studied the psychological effects of Vipassana meditation on Tihar jail inmates. They report that Vipassana brought significant improvement in psychological parameters like sense of hope and well-being. There has been considerable reduction in the neurotic predisposition, hostility and feelings of helplessness reported by the prisoners. Mahendram, Kumariah, Mishra, and Baroohi (1998) have observed that Vipassana is effective in reducing tension headaches. Chaudhary (1999) investigated the effectiveness of Vipassana meditation, as a technique of stress management and reformation among adolescent prisoners. In her study, Chaudhary reported that both state anxiety and trait anxiety reduced significantly among adolescents who had done the Vipassana course. She also reported that there was a decrease in aggression among undertrial prisoners who had undergone Vipassana course. There was an increase in the feelings of positive emotions such as, hopefulness, self control, conformity, and compassion, after practicing Vipassana, as compared to non-practitioners of Vipassana. Vipassana meditation courses have been found to bring out many positive changes in the behaviour of jail inmates (Shah, 1976; Unnithan & Ahuja, 1977; Hammersley & Creganj, 1986). On the basis of clinical experience, Chandiramani et al (1995) have stated that mild to moderately severe neurotic cases of anxiety, depression and adjustment problems show complete recovery as a result of Vipassana. They also reported that there was considerable reduction in the neurotic predisposition, hostility and feelings of helplessness reported by the prisoners; while the sense of hope and well being were enhanced, following Vipassana courses. On the basis of the above review of research, Vipassana has a significant positive effect on the quality of life, subjective well-being, and criminal propensity of prisoners. http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/tihar.html It has been scientifically proven that Vipassana Meditation has helped rehabilitate dangerous prisoners in the most notorious maximum security jail in India. Jim, do you honestly think you could get these kinds of results from a book on evolution?

Subject: To Deputy Dog From: PJ To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:14:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Deputy Dog, I posted here a couple of weeks back, and got blasted by Pat Conlon, but not before and after I'd given the same back. It's always great to hear your postings because they're so sane, human and wise. Any chance of letting me know your private address, so we may chat further? With very best wishes.

Subject: Thanks PJ but no - sane? [nt] From: Dep To: PJ Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 20:58:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Purifying the Mind? From: AJW To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 07:11:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dog, What's all this 'purifying the mind' stuff? Sounds like trying to purify the lawn mower, or the kettle. What is a pure mind like? How does it differ from an 'impure mind'? What is a 'pure thought' and what is an 'impure thought'. Is thinking about having a shag pure or impure? Or does it depend on what you're thinking of shagging? Anth the pure, blow-up, ex-premie.

Subject: Re: Purifying the Mind? From: Dep To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 05:37:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dog, What's all this 'purifying the mind' stuff? Sounds like trying to purify the lawn mower, or the kettle. What is a pure mind like? How does it differ from an 'impure mind'? What is a 'pure thought' and what is an 'impure thought'. Is thinking about having a shag pure or impure? Or does it depend on what you're thinking of shagging? Anth the pure, blow-up, ex-premie. --- What's all this 'purifying the mind' stuff? I'm not completely sure but I think it means 'feeling better.' Ask your lawn mower. Or better still ask the inmates of Tihar jail who completed the 10 Day Vipassana Course or the people at this site: http://www.vri.dhamma.org/ They have an excellent film entitled 'Doing Time, Doing Vipassana' in which you can see before and after film of the prisoners. Better still ask them, you would have to go to Delhi though. I used to work in a factory that made those blow up inflatable dolls. When I was asked to test them I'd say, 'I'll get right on it boss!'

Subject: Vipassana and blow-up dolls From: AJW To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:24:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dog, Talking of blow up dolls, did you ever see a French movie called 'Le Dernier Battaille'? It only had one line in the whole movie, but the opening sequence featured a brillian scene with a blow-up doll. The star later made it, and played 'Leon'. I don't know his name. Anyway Dog, what's all this Vipassana stuff? You're not being lured into a new cult are you? Anth the Inflatable Viper Sarnie.

Subject: Many fanatical cults!!!! From: Dep =) To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:30:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anth, Have you seen those crazy cults on TV recently? Hundreds of thousands of people going ballistic, shouting, playing drums with painted faces, working themselves into a frenzy, crying, shrieking with unbridled joy! I thought you were following the World Cup? =) In Vipassana there is a community, but there is no guru on a pedestal. When people meditate (i.e. the Ten-Day Intensive Course) they work to eliminate their own suffering, their own conditioning. It's a lot less emotional than the FIFA World Cup and everybody wins.

Subject: Jean Reno From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 09:17:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: my French is rusty, is the film called'Battle of the arses'- sounds fun. Particularly the one line bit!-fucking French wimps, one line???, on second thoughts, was it a fat one, one gram/ two grams?Is it on video (under the counter, perchance?)

Subject: Professional help is available, Anton From: Josef K. To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 15:02:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: from my Viennese colleague Sigmund Freud. I think you urgently need it.

Subject: Sigmund Freud. From: AJW To: Josef K. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 16:25:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: from my Viennese colleague Sigmund Freud. I think you urgently need it. --- Sigmund Freud. He can go and fuck his mother. Anth the Oedipussy

Subject: Anton der Oedipussy From: Sigmund Freud To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 03:10:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Du sollst nicht daran denken, deine Mutter zu ficken! Das nächste wäre, deinen Vater zu töten. S. Freud, recent ex-, Vienna Sanitorium

Subject: always had a good supply of cocaine too (NT) From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 02:06:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Meditation and rehabilitation of prisoners From: Thorin To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 14:12:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dep - good too see you again I am always up for a new meditation technique just in case the next one is better than the former. So far I have found they all work - some better than others. As I don't really have the time to read your whole post (I need to get to bed early to catch the big match tomorrow) would you mind giving a synopsis of the technique please? Just the meditation technique please? Thanks much, Thorin

Subject: Re: Meditation and rehabilitation of prisoners From: Me again To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:49:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They'd probably get better results if they engaged their prisoners in genuine rehabilitation programs, like counselling, teaching the prisoners a trade or engaging them in handicrafts. Unfortunately, I doubt they have the funds for that in India, so they're stuck with meditation. Just like we're stuck with you:):):)

Subject: Any religion has that effect, silly From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:33:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any religion tames the savage beast. Big deal. As for evolution, the way you talk about it is quite funny. You're afraid to learn about it, afraid to read about it, not interested in even talking about it ... but it sticks in your craw nonetheless. Ignorance is bliss, eh Dog?

Subject: emperors new clothes From: jon diener To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:48:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been puzzling over the following paradoxes that have been presented on this site. 1. The expremies appear to put more of their focus on Maharaji then premies do. They spend more time thinking about him then do premies. 2. The exes reflect on and mull over all the Hindu and other religous trappings that most premies left behind decades ago or never paid much attention to even then. My conclusion is that we premies have been remiss in our devotion. You exes have the right idea. We premies need to bring back all these religous ideas and think much more about them as you all do and we need to start thinking about the Master alot as as you all do. Just kidding. Anyway, its been fun and instructive for me dialogueing with you all. But, i feel its runs its course. I do thank you for allowing me space to be here and good luck on your journeys. JON

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: Bolly To: jon diener Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 03:44:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So Jon Diener, You see exes as spending more time and effort thinking about lordy than you good old boys still active in the fold, and why not? It's a fairly common response to discuss events of mutual interest and involvement. Also if one feels ones self to have been made a bit of a fool of by some con man, it is comforting to find you are not the only one. Most of us did a twenty to thirty year stretch with the mythmaker, so it might take more than five minutes to get past the experience and imerse ourselves in the here and now. Might take us forever since we don't practise this precious k that takes us there in the fast lane, by doing a bypass of reality and humanity and any other meaningfull engagement with life. Enjoy the fingers in the eyes, do prems or pwks still do that? Love Bolly

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: Neville To: jon diener Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 03:38:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Er...what exactly do you expect to be the topic of conversation on an Ex-Premie site? This is not obsession. It is just staying on-topic. Neville

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:24:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: by the way you never did answer my questions but then I never thought you would. God bless you , premie coward. May you emerge one day, in time, in time.

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:19:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: have fun with your obsession ( and that of all premies), your presence here has been pleasnt for me although, as I suspected, short-lived. Your guru is a has-been but you are not. Live long and prosper.

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: cactusjack To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:45:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, From your first post you played a transparant little game. Some honest decent people did try to engage with you and have a reasonable intellectual discussion. Your last post is a cynical slap in the face for those people. You are a lot less smart than you think you are. Your last post says nothing about premies or exes but quite a lot about how you treat people. But but as luck would have it you might have stumbled close to the essence of the whole buisness. Exs or premies --who has learnt the teachers lessons well. Who has really followed the master. I personally, over a period of years have carefully studied and observed the teacher. What has GM taught me? 1)Acquiring a whole bunch of money and spending it on myself is just great. Thanks GM for that. 2)Screwing blondes is fun. Well I kinda knew that --- but its good to have the teachers approval. 3)Smoking pot is fun. Again I sort of worked that one out myself-but what the hell all teachings can't be totally original. 4)Ditto-havind a drink. 5)Look after your family and make sure they are well taken care of. Don't abandon them and run off after some old Guru. 6)Have a great car. Actually I used to have an old banger but after GM mentioned how smooth his new BMW was I thought I should try it --- --He was spot on -I love my BMW. 6)Live in a nice place. Brilliant advice. My life brightened up when I moved out of the bad neighbourhood premie house and into a beautiful smart area of town. 7)Be arrogant, be the boss and don't go around kissing other peoples feet or arses. I have modelled my life on GMs and it works--I am happy. Wise up and try it sometime. p.s reply if you want to but as I am going on holiday and as G.M. taught me not to care a f*ck about anybody, I may not reply. CJ

Subject: LOL CJ (NT) From: AJW To: cactusjack Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:40:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ho ho ho

Subject: Following Maharaji - Great Post, CJ! From: JHB To: cactusjack Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 13:10:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome CJ! If this is your first post, I hope you will hang around and write some more:-) John.

Subject: Re: emperors new clothes From: I couldn't resist:) To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:04:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course exes spend more time 'thinking' about m-prem than premies do. That's because a 'premie' by the very definition of the word is incapable of any rational or critical thinking about their master. They can only fantasize about him, stuck as they are in their shameful idolatry, but they really can't think about him. Oh, they might pretend that they're capable of rational thinking on the subject, just like they pretend at everything else. And in the end, that's just what they're left with - a pretend existence.

Subject: Cowardice with a pleasant face on it? From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:23:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, We all know what's happening here. There is no way in the world that this conversation has 'run its course'. In fact, it was just starting and you know it.

Subject: PS -- final advice (undiluted version) From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:32:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It might have made sense to believe the spiritual crap you do a thousand years ago when there was no science to explain much of anything. A hundred years ago, you might have been forgiven for being so lost in the 'humanities' that you overlooked science. Now, though, it's unforgiveable. It's shameless, in fact, to believe as you do and to know nothing at all about evolution as you most obviously don't. That kind of ignorance is unjustifiable and thus you really have only yourself to blame for being so ignorant and confused at this stage in your life. By the way, what happened to Ronnie?

Subject: Jon... From: AJW To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:03:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I hope you're not going to run off without answering the questions I asked you below. In case you missed them, here they are again: Do you believe that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'? Do you believe that the patterns and colours you see when you press your eyeballs have some deep, meaningful, significance (it's your true self for example)? What are the negative, and possibly harmful aspect of belonging to a religious cult, for example the Moonies or Hare Krishnas? Looking forward to your reply Anth the Moonie

Subject: forget it....... From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:29:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he's headed for the hills! The usual premie coward.

Subject: Re: Jon... From: reflection To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 14:17:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AJW. could you stop asking rhetorical questios and if you must, could you come upo with A LOT more intelligent questios? Answer to question 1: Before discussing the first question i need to know your definition of 'perfection'. Answer to question 2: there is no person on this planet who having seen the light would even consider answering this absolutely stupid question.you know very well that the light that MJ talks about is not phosphenes or chemical light from pressure in the retina. Answer to question 3: no person who has experienced the inner self can or would belong to a cult. Any cult is a gathering of fools.

Subject: Don't dodge the question Jon From: AJW To: reflection Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:40:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you believe there is such a thing as a Perfect Master? That should be easy for a premie to answer. Why are you shy to stand by your beliefs Jon? Anth, I only arsked.

Subject: Re: Jon... From: The Falcon To: reflection Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so what's your excuse?

Subject: Re: Jon... From: reflection To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 19:59:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Could you be more vague ?

Subject: Re: premies From: Jethro To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:49:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, Even acknowledging your questions is 'mind' to a premie. Has it ever occurred to you that premies actually LIKE premal's behaviour? I think all the 'true seekers' have left. I was thinking recently(yes Anth I DO think sometimes)about my former friends who brought me to m and k whom I admired so much. I used think their jokes about women were jokes, but actually they were not and I see that they like prem's masogynism. I tried recently to get premies (and others) to sign a petition against SaiBaba. Guess what, they deleted me. Anyway, I still think my snot tastes great, Love to Dot Jethro

Subject: Re: premies From: The Falcon To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:27:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I signed the petition and I hope that all ex-premies and premies do the same. See you at Kundalini, Jethro.

Subject: Re: premies From: Jethro To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 08:22:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Falcon, I haven't been to a Kundalini for some time. Go On and give me clue :>) jethro

Subject: give it up, Anth From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Although those are very good and legitimate questions, I've yet to see a premie who has the guts to honestly answer them. I admire your persistence, though

Subject: Re: give it up, Anth From: reflection To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 14:22:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gerry, AJW is trolling for the many followers of Maharaji who never experienced the Light. Rather they pushed against their eyeballs as they were told by idiots. In fact, this ex-premie site is doing an excellent job of making all those who are around GMJ for the wrong reasons drop out of the tree. Next time you look at the face of a sleeping newborn baby, notice where it's looking !

Subject: Reflect on this... From: Marshall To: reflection Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 18:01:09 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: You think that you experienced 'THE LIGHT'??? What you experienced was just your mind. Yes, pure 100% unadulterated mind. Low I.Q., low grade, stunted, but mind nevertheless, just plain ol' mind. Sorry Charlie

Subject: Re: Reflect on this... From: reflection To: Marshall Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 19:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This site is all about using critical thinking to get to the truth. You haven't got a clue what I experienced and yet you state it's source. You shouldn't talk of what you don't know.

Subject: I close my eyes... From: The Falcon To: reflection Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:34:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and see Light in abundance, no guru required> You are a sanctimonious twat and have completely missed the point that all the really sincere people left Maharaji long ago. You may look at a sleeping new-born baby but your perception will be clouded by guru-coloured glasses so don't try to be clever, you are not!

Subject: Yes, well thank you Jon From: gerry To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have stimulated some great discussion. Jim so kindly and diligently pointed you in the right direction and I do hope you take the time to read some evolutionary psychology. Your prescientific fantasy stuff of Mother Love and Father God are food for another era.

Subject: More on Hans and his guru From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:43:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here’s an excerpt of a private conversation I’m having with an ex who left Rawat and went to some other Radhasoami/Sant Mat branch in the early days. “In fact, I too conversed with Bhagwan Giani Singh, initiate of Baba Sawan Singh and secretary of Kirpal Singh, who in the early eighties confirmed that Maharaji's father had been an initiate of Hazur but due to some scandal had left Beas.” That confirms what we’ve already heard about Hans leaving his guru and starting his own group. Hans ahs definitely been an initiate of the Beas RS/SM branch. I'm trying to know more about it .....

Subject: Re: More on Hans and his guru From: Know it All To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 22:37:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, The Living holy Man and Continuing tradition is the title of the chapter in the following book. Of Sawan Singh's tens of thousands of disiples, two gained substantial followings: Kirpal Singh and Charan Singh. I think M's father was a follower of Charan Singh, hence him giving the name Charan Anand to his close disciple. (Also after Charandas.) Anyway the history of it all is in the book mentioned by Ron Geaves, THE LORD AS GURU by Daniel Gold. Bye for now.

Subject: Re: More on Hans and his guru From: The Falcon To: Know it All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:49:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hans was initiated by Mahatma Hira Anand, one of Sarupanand's mahatmas. David Lane was told that he had also been intitated into Radahsoami at an earlier date by Sawan Singh. He was certainly never initiated by Charan Singh. Just one point, Hans started his 'mission' 6 years before Sarupanand died, makes a mockery of the'lineage' eh?

Subject: Re: More on Hans and his guru From: Tom To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 08:23:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David Lane once informed me he heard from Giani Ji that Hans had taken initiation from Sawan Singh (guru of Kirpal Singh, Charan Singh, Darshan Singh, and Jagat Singh). It may be helpful to remind ourselves that in India multiple initiations are very common. Best evidence to date seems to suggest that although Hans may have taken initiation at some point, Sawan Singh clearly was not his primary guru. The 'teachings' of Hans and Prem Rawat are very different from Sawan Singh's anyway.

Subject: Hans Mix From: Jean-Michel To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:25:12 (PDT) Email Address: ˛ Message: I guess he made his own mix out of what he grabbed here and there.

Subject: Re: Hans Mix From: The Falcon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The initiations of Radhasoami and Nangli Sahib are identical and consist of 2 techniques- 1)- Light and sound combined, as in Kriya Yoga. 2)-Breath with mantra (So Hung etc. etc.) This info was conveyed to me by the Nangli Sahib ashram.

Subject: Re: Hans Mix From: Know It All To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 22:54:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where does Kriya Yoga come from? I remember when I was in India coming across a small pamplet containing what I remember as the four tecniques written down. I remember feeling a little puzzled and then shrugging it off. In retrospect I would have liked to pursue Kriya Yoga a little further. Maybe someone was trying to tell me something.

Subject: Re: Hans Mix From: The Falcon To: Know It All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 02:59:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: try www.google.com and it will give you thousands of sites. The lineages are pretty diverse but most agree on the following; Bogdanath to Agastyer to Baba Ji to Lahiri Mahasya to Sri Yukteswar to Yogananda and then ....diversity. If you liked meditating with K,this will probably be for you as it is an enhancement, however, I find it all a bit dry and humourless.

Subject: Initiations are not the same From: Tom To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 11:42:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, the initiations are not the same. I attest to this, having taken initiation from both. A cursory or detailed reading of any of the Radhasoami literature, whether from RSSB, SOS, SKRM, Ruhani Satsang, or any other of the Radhasoami groups will confirm this. Emphasis from Radhasoami is on Light and Sound practices. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Initiations are not the same From: The Falcon To: Tom Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 14:33:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am merely passing on information that I received privately from Nangli Sahib who are not at all derisosry of RadhaSoami or Sant Mat although they certainly are regarding Hans, Sat Pal and Prem Pal. Tom, do you have details of the differences between RS, Nangli Sahib, Sant Mat and the sons of Hans? This is a fair question to you unless the old chestnut of secrecy rears its ugly, atavistic head. What is your evaluation of these systems and what do you consider their respective values to you or anyone else? Did you also receive K via the subject matter here (and there is plenty of it) do tell all the best

Subject: To Falcon re Differences in the Teachings From: Tom To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 16:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Falcon, Sorry if I caused any confusion with my poor communication skills. By mentioning having been initiated into 'both,' I should have made it clear that I was initiated into Rawat's knowledge by Jagdeo in the early '70s, and had also taken initiation by one of the Radhasoami gurus, and associated with various of them, among others, but have not been initiated by Nangli Sahib. Rawat's teachings certainly differ from any of the Radhasoami/Sant Mat gurus about whom I've ever known anything. Radhasoami/Sant Mat-published writings from any of the gurus typically emphasize Sound and Light but do not bother with breath, for example. I didn't notice actual mention of breath techniques at the Nangli Sahib website, contrary to your post to which I first responded (maybe I missed something there). Radhasoami internal differences can vary around the mantra used for concentration (Beas or Delhi gurus versus Agra, for example, at the risk of oversimplification). Many of the Radhasoami gurus also subtlety indulge in the game of 'he's not really a guru,' when referencing other Radhasoami gurus - quite the ongoing fodder for spirited debate to this day on various online forums. Their focus, like Radhasoami, is on light and sound and appear devoid of any mention of breathing techniques, reinforcing the similarity to Radhasoami. Hope this clarifies a bit; again, sorry if I caused any confusion. No judgment here regrding efficacy of any of them, except I'd be lying not to suggest the opinion that Rawat likely is not very advanced as far as I can tell (which isn't saying much). Regards.

Subject: Re: To Falcon re Differences in the Teachings From: Know It All To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 27, 2002 at 23:00:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kriya Yoga techniques are very similar. I remember early on being in India and coming across a Kriya Yoga Pamphlet with the three or four tecniques written down - And thinking what sacrilege!

Subject: Re: To Tom re Differences in the Teachings From: The Falcon To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:57:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, Tom. The Nangli Sahib intiation is Light and Sound combined (as in SRF Krya Yoga) plus 'Holy Name' The Nangli Sahib do not officially acknowledge Advait Mat although they agree that initiation via the current Advait Mat master, Darshan Purnanand, 85 years old and living in Anandpuri, would still be effective as that lineage came directly from Sarupanand (via Vairaganand etc.) Not for me, thank you. all the best

Subject: Kechari Mudra... From: The Falcon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:48:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was an inspired addition which I still like immensely, if you only got snot, keep trying. This technique works! (for me)

Subject: Re: Hans Mix...yes From: Jethro To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 09:47:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and that way he could clain lineage from RamaKrishna and RahdaSoami or some such bolloxology.

Subject: Coagulated in the process From: Jean-Michel To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:00:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess ......

Subject: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: Sulla To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:14:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Subj: Amaroo September 3,4,5,6 2002 Date: 6/17/2002 11:57:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: mailinglist@elanvital.org (Elan Vital) Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a four-day international event at Ivory's Rock Conference Center, Queensland, Australia from Tuesday September 3 to Friday September 6, 2002. Everyone who has received the techniques of Self-Knowledge is warmly invited to attend. Information on this event is now posted on the Amaroo website http://www.amaroo.org

Subject: Re: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: Dar Shan To: Sulla Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 16:55:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The darshan collection bins were down a tad at the last event. Bring more money folks, the Leaders article did not bring in what was forecast. Damn those rich CEO guys, doing their research and all. There will be more darshan lines than the last event. Donate often.....that is all.

Subject: Re: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: D. Votey To: Dar Shan Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:15:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As I write I am selling my own grandmother in order to give give and give again. Jai D.

Subject: Re: Amaroo-September 3,4,5,6-2002 From: The Falcon To: D. Votey Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:40:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How old, how beauiful and how much?

Subject: Neville-any plans for it yet? nt From: la-ex To: Dar Shan Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:52:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: oh I gave him LOTTTTS of ideas for it. From: 10 yr spurned aspirant To: la-ex Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 01:44:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can stock up on video cartridges for your camcorders for THIS baby. heh heh heh

Subject: My beliefs are the truth! Honestly! From: Peter Howie To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:53:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all, I put this on Symposium - I feel somewhat conflicted about two forums. Anyway - here's a real ironic thought twist. If this forum is a cult - then Symposium is a breakaway cult. That makes F7 the religion and them the cult. And people who have been here and gone over there are those types with funny names - you know those who fall out so badly that they become anti-whatever -their previous-belief. Anyway - all the best with these ideas. My beliefs are the truth The truth is obvious The truth is based on real data The data I select is the real data Corollary: The data I don't select is not worth bothering about. This means that the way I see to world predicates the data I select - which means I see what supports my view of the truth, or how the world works. I don't see and don't value and don't give even weight to things I don't like. This is also called human nature. It assists me and others to make enough sense of the world so that we don't have to recreate it from scratch on a daily basis. It is impossible to have intimacy and dialogue when both parties insist on being seen, understood and appreciated first. It is called a Mexican standoff in Australia - probably an Australian standoff in Mexico. 6 shooters at high noon stuff. Anyway - this is my contribution to the onging discussions. And my beliefs are the truth, and are based on real data and, by gum, I'll be the one to show you the real data not some other lunkhead!!! Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

Subject: Tricky business, objectivity [nt] From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:58:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject:   From:   To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 08:13:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.oz.net/~drek/pics/dancetits.jpg

Subject: Let's talk about me and Re on Symp From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:43:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry's blocked the thread here about me and RE so why don't we take it up on Symp? Anyone interested, that's where I'll talk about it further.

Subject: Well, it's a question of respect, Jim From: Lesley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:16:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are you going to do now, lol.

Subject: Over on Symp, answer you, I will [nt] From: Jim To: Lesley Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:17:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And me too From: Moley To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:53:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the second time in a fortnight or so that I have logged on after being away to find someone posting inflamatory and OT stuff about me here. Loaf - please don't feed trolls. And I won't email you. Seeing as how you didn't email me, but instead chose to go on here. Talk to me in public please. On the Symp. As Gerry must be sick of dealing with OT posts. Not to mention everyone else. And what has Nige got to do with it?

Subject: Knowledge reviews From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ridiculous idea or what? (this one hasn't taken give it another shot!) Answers and experiences please!

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Bob schmitz To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:06:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: End of the 80s somewhere in a French coast town. i remember the incredible 1920s architecture with hand painted ceilings in the hotel. It was quite small scale. Although hardly involved for many years, a chance for a 'personal' review from the guru himself was hard to pass up. The circumstances were proper for a good concentration, so at the end of the day I was in a peaceful state. What I thought was weird was that one was not supposed to use a beragon anymore. I clearly had not the type of muscle in my arms which could hold up doing the sound technique,so I heard a lot of rumbling from muscles transmitted to the ears. The explanation of why this change was that it was more natural this way. Hard to buy. Premies are so used filling in the blanks: People around me did not want to discuss it or the ones that did: We immediately invented that this way a connection between important acupuncture meridians was established, by which k. would (finally) work! We also decided that it would be politically incorrect for m. to mention this.... The spirits around me seemed very high. This ended rather abruptly when m. delivered his final speech, with a lot of stupid wordplay jokes about an ass, both meaning donkey and rectum. How weird that m.,who had actually been present quite some of the time supervising (?)the meditation obviously did not catch up with its elevating effect! Of course you never know for sure: 1 perhaps my peaceful feeling was only a limited stage of a greater scope, less limited. 2 perhaps m. wanted to shock us (although I thougt this was not smart timing even from a divine perspective) 3 most of the people present were at such a low level that the satsang was appropriate for them. At the time I very much wanted to see m. as a teacher. His speech planted a lot of drips and doubts in me. I did continue to meditate for a while. Something else happened during this event: During my ashram years I was looked down on a lot, because of absent mindedness caused by LSD and ADD. I asked m. a question about absent mindedness and practising k. He replied and actually said something that I was not crazy.. This did heal a lot of pain and caused a great deal of respect from those in the community who were always picking on me. During the following 2 months of involvement i did enjoy this change of attitude. After that period m started to elevate himself more and more, and a sort of mahatma did a fundraising tour, and that was enough. This was my last bout of involvement. Just over a year later it was finally time to exit. I did so by revealing the techniques to some interested. It was the time of my divorce, because the often violent and abusive marriage was only stable when we were both on the fringes of the cult.

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Vicki To: Bob schmitz Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:26:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I too remember his taking away the baragon saying if we were without one, we wouldn't practice! The knowledge review I was in was in Snowmass, Colorado. The elevation was high; it was nearly impossible to breathe. We broke out into little rooms so he could oversee them. I remember there was a big deal being made that this was the first time in a bazillion years that the perfect master had personally given a knowledge review, and something about the big wheels turning us all in the right direction. I found out that one of the Mahatmas, Charanand maybe?, was given knowledge by Shri Hans personally. All the people he had given knowledge to had the right techniques all along. It was all so strange. But at the time, I was in it without questioning a thing, and the rational didn't phase me at all. I did always think his goofball potty jokes were weird. And his obsession with bodily functions. I know now, thanks to EPO! I only wish I'd known it all back then. Saved me quite a lot of money, it would have indeed.

Subject: Re: memory lane.. From: Bob Schmitz To: Vicki Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 11:08:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many hours did you sleep on a beragon? For me it must have been thousands. Once I reade an interview with the Dalai Lama about meditation. he said that it is very stupid to meditate longer than you can concentrate, because it creates the habit of inattention,which is,like all bad habits, hard to break. I think m. has capitalized on the difficulty for many of us to get down to business (which would be, from the start, sitting down and practice the techniques). It always amazes me that in many 'groups' there is not this reluctance to 'just do it' which has been so characteristic for premies. But then, there was this excuse, this next best thing, which gradually became the one and only thing: the devotion stuff. rather do service a whole night than really meditating an hour(especially when already severely sleep deprived). If anybody had experiences, it sure were'nt the ashram premies. Only very few premies had this ability, and also very few mahatmas.

Subject: Inattention and beragons From: Livia To: Bob Schmitz Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 03:53:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Once I reade an interview with the Dalai Lama about meditation. he said that it is very stupid to meditate longer than you can concentrate, because it creates the habit of inattention,which is,like all bad habits, hard to break.' Hmmm. So many of the premies say that Maharaji is a brilliant teacher re Knowledge but I certainly could have done with that quote from the Dalai Lama. How interesting, and on reflection, how true. Amidst the experiences I did have there were also periods where my thoughts would ramble all over the place, especially if I was worried about something at the time. I'm sure this is common to most if not all premies, but Maharaji's instruction to sit for at least an hour necessitates certain periods becoming habituated, as the Dalai Lama observes, to inattention. And the beragon thing - I didn't understand why he disbanded them. It certainly made meditation a lot less comfortable, which didn't help, especially with the 2nd technique. I always thought he got rid of them because we all used to go around with them poking out of our bags, especially at festival times, and members of the general public would ask what on earth they were, which would then put you in an awkward postion - even more awkward than trying to do the 2nd technique without a beragon. Lastly, if Shri Hans directly gave K to Charananand, as someone said above, Charananand definitely gave the light technique in the most rigourous way! So Shri Hans must have given K to M in that way too, presumably. None of it really makes any sense and all seems pretty arbitrary and not properly thought out at all. I think we'd have probably got a lot more out of meditation and become a lot more focussed as people if M had pointed out what the Dalai Lama pointed out above. Ho hum. Livia

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: Inside Edition To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:09:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I thought it was a real big deal (at the time) to FINALLY be getting a review from Ratwat himself. Nice to now know he was stepping out for a smoke between techniques.

Subject: Reviewing What? From: Gregg To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:11:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I hadn't seen M for a very long time. Then I went to a Knowledge Review. You would think that would be a review of...about...well, something to do with 'Knowledge,' right? Hmmm. First of all, what is Knowledge? Sorry. That wasn't the issue. What was covered in the K. R. session was the techniques. The simplest techniques in Hindudom. So what's to review? Not much. You'd think M would pretend to transmit something during these sessions. Believe me, if he had pretended to do something like that, he audience would have gone apeshit. But, instead, he just went over the rules and went out for a break whilst we practiced the same techniwues we'd practiced for years. Sad, really, that GMJ could not even pretend to be a guru. After having claimed to be God.

Subject: The fact is that he's From: Jethro To: Gregg Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:32:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bored shitless. he odes to kee[ up the interest. For most premies it's just an excuse for more darshan. I went to one knowledge review with him in the 80s. Almost everybody there was peeking at him walking around when they were meant to be doing the techniques. You know, it's like being given the password to RE and using it. How could anyone resist? Cheers jethro

Subject: Re: Knowledge reviews From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:44:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So it wasn't bullseye 1st time for you then? Joking apart,I remember a k review with the greater etc in the early '90's,when he explained that it wasn't necessary to put your tongue all the way up.Just resting it as far back as you could go was sufficient.Lots of piss taking about old premies,who'd cut whatever it's called underneath,in order to do it the old way. I was taken aback by that,but as my involvement with the whole thing by then was on the level of fuehrerkontakt/see old mates....a bit like sex tourism without the sex,I brushed it aside as just one of good old Prem's human foibles. Little did I know then that the guy had always been one foible short of the 7 deadly sins all his life.

Subject: Moley, Nigel and Heller From: Loaf To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:16:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It has come to my attention that Moley has been letting Jim Heller use her password to access Recent Exes for nearly a year. If either Nigel or Moley want to get in touch with me to talk about this, it might be in their best interests. I think a full explaination and apology is needed. It is the behaviour of a shit.

Subject: Re: Moley, Nigel and Heller From: Richard C. To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:37:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In view of the above revelation by Loaf, I would like to ask the following questions concerning the recent postings by David Aspinall: a) Does the FA of the time now regret his decision to leave these threads, and the poster concerned, open to public strutiny for some days, instead of doing what common sense demanded, and delete them immediately as being inconsequent to the business of this Forum? b) Do all those people who sprang instantly and unreservedly to Moley's support on these occasions, without probably knowing anything of the facts of the situation concerned (a private relationship), now regret their impulse to react instinctively as a group against the perceived interests of one of its members? c) Is there not an issue of natural justice here? d) Is this present situation now an indication that it is time for some persons on this Forum to desist generally and forthwith from lambasting perceived opponents with immediate questioning of their integrity, honour, and abusive (sometimes obscene) language, and to return to an earlier practice of confronting opposing views with proven fact, reasoned argument and sometimes restraint in the face of provocation? Is this not the better way to win the high moral ground in such situations? Richard C., who isn't a premie, abandoned it years ago with massive relief, doesn't know David Aspinall from Satpal, but who greatly respects the work of EPO, and who recently has been dismayed at the fall in its behavioural standards.

Subject: Off Topic...Richard C... From: Cynthia To: Richard C. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:28:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And in the wrong thread to boot! Btw, the above 'revelation by Loaf' is an allegation right now. It'll be worked out. Also, this is not the place to post about personal and private familial matters about anyone. Who's David Aspinall? I never heard of him until he posted a couple of times recently. It's posts like yours that make this forum stink. Who are you to jump in here without any real explanation?

Subject: I agree with Cynthia From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:44:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Question to Jim From: Mike Finch To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jim I remember a while ago that we had a discussion (or was it an argument? No, I think it was a genteel discussion! Several in fact) about RE. My assumption, based on what you wrote, was that you did not know what was being said in RE. My question is: At that time, were you actually reading RE, so that you knew all about it? Or can you not remember? Just curious. Take care -- Mike (note that I have closed the gaps between the ends of my sentences and the exclamation or question marks.)

Subject: Re: Question to Jim From: Robyn To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:57:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He has been reading since last September Quite sure there will be years worth of justifications Jim is in my life to teach me how to deal with the lowest of the low on this earth Good job Jim Robyn

Subject: right to privacy From: Vicki To: Robyn Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:16:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This thread has all the makings From: gerry To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:29:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: of a huge protracted personal pitched feverish emotional fight, and that's bad for business. Chuck and Pat have kindly assented to allowing their forum as an outlet for this discussion. Here's the link: The Symposium

Subject: my experiences and reflections From: jon diener To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:03:29 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: I have been reading the ex-premie web sites for a few weeks now and I feel a desire to speak my personal truth and understanding (or lack it depending on your point of view) I received Knowledge in 1971 and lived in the ashram from 72-76. I am currently a lawyer part-time and have a small farm. I consider myself undogmatic, willing to analyze and think and with an open mind. I had no religous or spiritual training or xperiences prior to meeting Maharaji`(other than psychedelic drugs and the Grateful Dead, if those count !) I also have sought understanding and truth in forums and means other than Maharaji since receiving Knowledge. I have considered the words of the ex-premies, I feel, with an open mind and listened for what truth might be there. What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. Putting them into words is not so easy in the first place and particularly when faced with the skepticism that I anticipate. But I’ll try to put a few words down here: when with Maharaji personally, at events or in some of the few brief personal encounters I had with him, I sometimes felt a sort of radiant joy that would envelop me and would give me a sense of enjoying and appreciating the grandness and uniqueness of life and of myself. Sometimes the joy would be so strong and pervasive and nourishing that I would call it bliss. Sometimes I had a sense of the innate perfection and magic of life. These were experiences. They were not mental constructs. And while they were clearly within me it is clear to me also that they were awakened by Maharaji. They happened in my contact with him. They also happened somewhat at satsang and occasionally when I practiced the tecniques. Now as to Maharaji claiming to be God, and the whole guruworship thing: I lived in the ashram and went to India in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. I remember contemplating in those days whether Maharaji was “God” or what his relationship to God actually was. I also remember him saying he was not God.(And of course, we might want to think about just what we mean by “God” anyway. What God is to you may not what God is to me.) I never felt compelled to think of Maharaji as God by him or by the mahatmas or anyone else. My take on it then was is pretty similar to now. What I thought then was that he was a channel of divine feelings and the consciousness of what is divine. That he was attuned to the sorts of feelings and understandings that God is associated with, but he was not the Creator of the Universe. I remember his equating God with the phrase satchitanand or just energy, which was clearly a state of mind and not an authority figure. And for God’s sake, Lord of the Universe, you tell me what a Lord is: something above a vassal in feudal times ? Somebody from the House of Lords ? What we meant or at least I meant when I sang that song, was someone with a great power to unlock some mysteries of life and of the Universe, someone who could show me the magic that is woven into this Universe, that was the “Lord of the Universe” for me - not some God who could, by his very thought, create human beings or dissolve planets. If anyone was thinking about Maharaji like that, then you liked that idea. It was certainly not inherent in having Maharaji in your life or having Knowledge. Translating profound experiences into words and mental constructs is a tricky business and I believe Maharaji may have, in part through his Hindu upbringing, interpreted the guru-devotee thing in ways that led people into religious sorts of thinking. But I also remember him quite clearly doing the opposite, emphatically stating that Kowledge was not a religion, that it was about an experience and that our ideas about it were not it. I always felt it was inherently my responsibility to understand what he and the Knowledge were about rather than latch onto concepts or words he said and think that I must find all meaning there. That is following scripture and creating religion. However, I made mistakes with Knowledge and Maharaji. I projected unsatisfied longings for a parental figure onto Maharaji. When I realized I had been doing that I owned it and worked on my painful relationship with my parents. I also realized that I had been too reliant on the ashram setting and that if this was a real means of enlightenment, it could not be so limited to a prescribed setting. So I left. Incidentally, I have a tape from the mid-seventies in which Maharaji talks about the ashrams as hospitals where someone beat up from his travails in life could go to sort of cool out and get some balance, but then should go out again and experience the world rather than just stay in the protected environment. I believe I avoided other sorts of life experiences that were necessary for my growth by focusing so exclusively on Knowledge and Maharaji for some years there. But, I never felt Maharaji asked me to do that. What I feel is that man-woman relationships for one, my difficult relationships with my family members of origin for another, how to fit into society at large were issues I wanted to avoid and would have done so in some way or another with or without Knowledge. I remember being sort of relieved when I moved into the ashram about the sex thing since I was having a lot of troubles in that area anyway. I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. I know some of this sounds sort of like I know better than you and I don’t really have such a high opinion of myself like that. I suffer and struggle and learn lessons in very hard ways. I think that the experience Maharaji awakened in me was very difficult to assimilate given all my conditioning, emotional scars and generally my inclinations towards negative emotions. It has been a tremendous challenge to know about a state or pure joy and be struggling with all the negative feelings I have struggled with hopelessness, rage, self-hate, etc. etc. There have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. But little by little I have been making my way and I appreciate the experiences I have had with him. They are a basic part of my understanding about what is possible and what I want in life. JON DIENER I have been reading the ex-premie web sites for a few weeks now and I feel a desire to speak my personal truth and understanding (or lack it depending on your point of view) and lived in the ashram from 72-76. I am currently a lawyer part-time and have a small farm. I consider myself undogmatic, willing to analyze and think and of an open mind. I had no religous or spiritual training or experiences prior to meeting Maharaji`(other than psychedelic drugs and the Grateful Dead, if those count !) I also have sought understanding and truth in forums and means other than Maharaji since receiving Knowledge. I have considered the words of the ex-premies, I feel, with an open mind and listened for what truth might be there. What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. Putting them into words is not so easy in the first place and particularly when faced with the skepticism that I anticipate. But I’ll try to put a few words down here: when with Maharaji personally, at events or in some of the few brief personal encounters I had with him, I sometimes felt a sort of radiant joy that would envelop me and would give me a sense of enjoying and appreciating the grandness and uniqueness of life and of myself. Sometimes the joy would be so strong and pervasive and nourishing that I would call it bliss. Sometimes I had a sense of the innate perfection and magic of life. These were experiences. They were not mental constructs. And while they were clearly within me it is clear to me also that they were awakened by Maharaji. They happened in my contact with him. They also happened somewhat at satsang and occasionally when I practiced the tecniques. Now as to Maharaji claiming to be God, and the whole guruworship thing: I lived in the ashram and went to India in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. I remember contemplating in those days whether Maharaji was “God” or what his relationship to God actually was. I also remember him saying he was not God.(And of course, we might want to think about just what we mean by “God” anyway. What God is to you may not what God is to me.) I never felt compelled to think of Maharaji as God by him or by the mahatmas or anyone else. My take on it then was is pretty similar to now. What I thought then was that he was a channel of divine feelings and the consciousness of what is divine. That he was attuned to the sorts of feelings and understandings that God is associated with, but he was not the Creator of the Universe. I remember his equating God with the phrase satchitanand or just energy, which was clearly a state of mind and not an authority figure. And for God’s sake, Lord of the Universe, you tell me what a Lord is: something above a vassal in feudal times ? Somebody from the House of Lords ? What we meant or at least I meant when I sang that song, was someone with a great power to unlock some mysteries of life and of the Universe, someone who could show me the magic that is woven into this Universe, that was the “Lord of the Universe” for me - not some God who could, by his very thought, create human beings or dissolve planets. If anyone was thinking about Maharaji like that, then you liked that idea. It was certainly not inherent in having Maharaji in your life or having Knowledge. Translating profound experiences into words and mental constructs is a tricky business and I believe Maharaji may have, in part through his Hindu upbringing, interpreted the guru-devotee thing in ways that led people into religious sorts of thinking. But I also remember him quite clearly doing the opposite, emphatically stating that Kowledge was not a religion, that it was about an experience and that our ideas about it were not it. I always felt it was inherently my responsibility to understand what he and the Knowledge were about rather than latch onto concepts or words he said and think that I must find all meaning there. That is following scripture and creating religion. However, I made mistakes with Knowledge and Maharaji. I projected unsatisfied longings for a parental figure onto Maharaji. When I realized I had been doing that I owned it and worked on my painful relationship with my parents. I also realized that I had been too reliant on the ashram setting and that if this was a real means of enlightenment, it could not be so limited to a prescribed setting. So I left. Incidentally, I have a tape from the mid-seventies in which Maharaji talks about the ashrams as hospitals where someone beat up from his travails in life could go to sort of cool out and get some balance, but then should go out again and experience the world rather than just stay in the protected environment. I believe I avoided other sorts of life experiences that were necessary for my growth by focusing so exclusively on Knowledge and Maharaji for some years there. But, I never felt Maharaji asked me to do that. What I feel is that man-woman relationships for one, my difficult relationships with my family members of origin for another, how to fit into society at large were issues I wanted to avoid and would have done so in some way or another with or without Knowledge. I remember being sort of relieved when I moved into the ashram about the sex thing since I was having a lot of troubles in that area anyway. I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. I know some of this sounds sort of like I know better than you and I don’t really have such a high opinion of myself like that. I suffer and struggle and learn lessons in very hard ways. I think that the experience Maharaji awakened in me was very difficult to assimilate given all my conditioning, emotional scars and generally my inclinations towards negative emotions. It has been a tremendous challenge to know about a state or pure joy and be struggling with all the negative feelings I have struggled with hopelessness, rage, self-hate, etc. etc. There have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. But little by little I have been making my way and I appreciate the experiences I have had with him. They are a basic part of my understanding about what is possible and what I want in life. JON DIENER

Subject: Jon, a couple of questions... From: AJW To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:35:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, It's nice to see a premie stick around and answer a few questions. Often they fire off a salvo and run off to the fridge for six months. I'd like to ask you a couple of things about what you believe. Do you believe that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'? Do you believe that the patterns and colours you see when you press your eyeballs have some deep, meaningful, significance (it's your true self for example)? What are the negative, and possibly harmful aspect of belonging to a religious cult, for example the Moonies or Hare Krishnas? Looking forward to your replies. Anth, who's had a few experiences and reflections too.

Subject: Re: Jon, a couple of questions... From: Jon Diener To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gila net.com Message: Anth: I feel like my time on this site is sort of up. If you want to email me these questions, i put my email address on some of my first posts, I'll respond to you privately and to any others to the extent time and interest allow. JON JON

Subject: They're in the post Jon (nt) From: AJW To: Jon Diener Date Posted: Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 12:29:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth: I feel like my time on this site is sort of up. If you want to email me these questions, i put my email address on some of my first posts, I'll respond to you privately and to any others to the extent time and interest allow. JON JON ---

Subject: Re: Jon, a couple of questions... From: The Falcon To: Jon Diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:44:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wimp! you disappoint me, Jon.

Subject: Are you always so feisty, Falcon? From: PatC To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 23:55:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm enjoying your posts.

Subject: yep! From: The Falcon To: PatC Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 02:19:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: particularly after an emotionally harrowing day in Brighton. First meeting with a friend whose beautiful girlfriend of 35 died in his arms a few days ago of viral pneumonia followed by counselling another friend whose marriage had broken up. It puts a lot into perspective when observing such sorrow. This life is not a dress rehearsal. The day ended on a high note, however, with Thai duck curry in the fine company of Patrick Wilson who is as intelligent and charming in person as he is on the page. We were joined by two other friends of Patrick's and in the flow of the conversation I was shocked to discover that a mutual friend called Ram Puri, who has built an ashram just up river from Prem Nagar, was actually Sita Ram who brought Maharaji to the west(see J-M's Indian perspective on EPO).This was the first I knew of his earlier life as I met him through the film industry. He is an intiate of the Dhuna Akhara sect of saddhus who have principal bathing rights at Kumbh Mela which they vigorously guard with powerful weaponry, swords and knives, not guns!!!He has made a brilliant film on this Akhara including the preparation for initiation at Kumbh Mela, part of which consists of the chief saddhu pulling the initiate's penis down firmly, not in a sexual way, wrong direction, but to free the lower chakra in order to enable the kundalini to rise freely. This film needs to be seen to be believed. I find Ram Puri highly intelligent and can't wait to read his forthcoming autobiography (in 2003) which includes the whole sorry saga of 'you know who' and his mum.

Subject: Now that is interesting From: PatC To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 12:27:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for that. Sita Ram was an interesting person. Well, I didn't know him but from stories.

Subject: see, what did I tell you, Anth [nt] From: gerry To: Jon Diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:27:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It's OK gerry From: AJW To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 09:44:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll deprogramme him by email, then bring him back to the forum, as living proof it's worthwhile asking cult members one or two simple questions now and again (between football matches). take care anth the persistentialist.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:51:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, I have answered your response to me below but just wanted to say that Maharaji said 'I am the perfect master' at least once at Alexandra Place in London, 1973. (J-M, please look out as I am dredging up a pal's archive, it's all there!!!) I remember it well, the whole stage had been constructed from building materials stolen by the WPC ashram who also made a good living stealing the lead off roofs, particularly church roofs.rendering unto God what is God's, they said at the time.( I'm not saying who because they are mates). The event was like the Nuremberg Rally with James Last in accompaniment, sorry that should read Bhole Ji, who was more into James Last than Maharaji at the time, even dressed like him. The greatest punishment that Mata Ji ever inflicted on Bhole Ji was when she took away his James Last albums, perhaps that is why he went back too India with her, yes, now it all makes sense! Sorry about the trip down memory lane, coming soon- snorting coacine with Raja Ji, never got to puff with 'the master' though, mind you I'm too X-rated even for him. When you have read my post in the thread below please respond. all the best

Subject: Lead off church roofs. From: PatD To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 13:30:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,I heard that one in passing,along with many more. So don't be shy,let's have the information.Information is the main reason I keep on with these forums, as I can't be bothered with the deconstuction of spirituality stuff,except now & again, We've had the corporate culture Rawat revelations from Dettmers etc,but the early days set up ...well that's a mystery isn't it? Seems like no-one has ever come forward to explain how donations to DLM(UK)went to an entity called WB.Stores.Ltd,& so on & so forth. I know it's tricky with old mates,I've got a few myself,but the ins & outs of how Guru Maharaj Ji set himself up in London with the aid of dope dealers,rock&roll business peripherals & general wide boys has yet to be written. I can't do it as I was too far away from the action to hear anything but the rumours.

Subject: Re: Lead off church roofs. From: Bolly To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 03:23:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Pat D, Some of the practises of the time were fun but risky. You remember there was an oil crisis and three day week, share a bath with Edward Heath etc. I do remember the guys going out at dead of night to siphon petrol for the lords merc or rolls or whatever. Petrol was rationed, and the lords message needed to be heard. There was an attitude of rendering to god what is his. Also a siege mentality existed within the walls, and perhaps that was the beggining of a habit of prems saying nothing even to each other. Time is up on this borrowed machine will post later on humourous incidents at Fort Reigate. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Lead off church roofs. From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:27:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if the Bluestone brothers fitted into any of what you (Pat D) mention. They used to run a shop in Camden Town in the mid 70's. called Mr Grumpy's (I think). They sold pianos and other stuff - it was a huge shop and there always seemed to be a lot of activity around it. Does anybody else remember that place? There was also a wholefood shop run by premies with the same name, or maybe the piano shop was called something else. It just made me wonder in the context of Loaf's recent revelations of Rick Bluestone's current or recent position as PAM. Hmmmm... Livia

Subject: Re: Lead off church roofs. From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 19:43:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: WB Stores....the B could be Bluestone,probably is. Just don't tell me they're well known gangsters,I'm paranoid enough already. Love PatD.

Subject: gangsters they are not-LOL (nt). From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 23:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Lead off church roofs. From: The Falcon To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 08:15:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will dredge up the memories when I have more time, Pat, but can definitely say that around '73 there was a WPC ashram in Leicester that made its considerable income from stealing lead off church roofs. Service eh? Some of them actually got nicked! The main protagonist was a good friend of mine whose personality lent itself to bad behaviour, in fact, some years later I know that one Midlands community was almost entirely financed by drug money generated by this character after he left the ashram - Thai grass, Coli weed and cocaine! Even Anne Johnson's very expensive visits were funded in this way, ask Sir Dave he was around! Peter Potter (now there is someone who knows 'where the bodies are buried') loved the fact that the monthly targets for the community co-ordinator were always met and certainly knew the source of these 'funds'as well as Glen. This was on top of A.M.P (remember that?).Is Peter Potter now in or out, by the way. A pay-off would have definitely been in order there. The rhyme at the time went;- (Can't remember what tune it was though) I don't want to live in the ashram get up at 6 and sing arti, I'd rather hang around in the premie underground living off the earnings of a good dope dealer. Guess the community, Sir Dave, Nick K.etc. ????? (Nuneaton was a close second-just a hint. Similar methodology but not as extreme.)

Subject: AMP donations From: Livia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:31:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falcon, love your posts! Do you remember whether AMP donations reached their supposed destination - propagation purposes - or did they ever end up in Maharaji's personal coffers? Just wondering... Best to you, Livia

Subject: Sorry, no idea (nt) From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 22:57:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hey Jon, remember me? From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:36:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, Don't you remember? You and your then-wife Ronnie met Deborah and me when we first moved to L.A. Met us at that tiny, little satsang thing in Hollywood, I believe. Ronnie turned us on to the 'He', 'She' and 'We' books which I enjoyed then (Hillman? James Hillman?). I think you even had us over for dinner once, or maybe it was the other way around. We had that townhouse on King's Road in West Hollywood? You were already in law school at 'SC, I believe, and were in third year when I started. That is essentially what I remember about you on that level. Otherwise, I recall you as very serious and kind of quiet, almost morose, quite honestly. I recall that you used to play guitar and I invited you to jam with me once but you begged off on the grounds that you were 'working on' yourself and such indulgences were distractions and counter-productive. Do you remember that? Jon, you summarize the basis for your continued faith in Maharaji as follows: What I come back to and what I believe is the real bottom line are the experiences I have had with Maharaji. These experiences were not religious fervour ( I am not a religious sort of person) or mentally induced experiences. They were palpable and for me, unquestionably real experiences in the sense that feeling the heat of the sun, or a wave of grief when my father died, or hurt when a lover spurned me, etc. were real experiences. Although my experiences with Maharaji were of a somewhat different character. I think, however, that if you look closely at this you'll see this justification extremely wanting. First, it's just wilfull on your part to say your experiences were not 'mentally induced'. Even IF one could somehow replicate whatever you're calling your experiences in some sort of scientific experiment wherein you had no idea what to expect, the fact is that's not at all how you came by them and thus you're simply unable to say to what extent your pre-conceptions and conditioning affected both what you experienced and how you interpreted it. No, that's just wishful thinking on your part. The fact is, scientists can now replicate the 'divine' experience by simply stimulating certain parts of the brain. Check out the link which includes this passage: Pioneering TMS researcher Michael Persinger, a neuropsychologist at Canada's Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, is doing even more astounding work. By stimulating specific areas in the right hemisphere of the brain, he is able to induce mystical states of consciousness, giving some subjects the experience of encountering God. In scientific terminology, he uses a specific, precisely timed, repetitive signal - one dubbed the 'Thomas Pulse' - to create a 'sensed presence' in the test subject's brain. Some volunteers have reported feelings of pleasant detachment, while others have broken into a panic, convinced the test chamber is 'hexed'. And some have had direct experience of the divine. Persinger is convinced that naturally occurring electromagnetic fluctuations could be responsible for paranormal experiences like ghosts, UFOs and mystical apparitions. Some have argued, on the basis of Persinger's work, that religion itself could be electromagnetic in origin - and the transcendent experiences like those recounted by saints and mystics can be recreated with electromagnetic pulses in his laboratory. Besides that, though, your analogies don't work, I think. Feeling the heat of the sun is an interesting one because I guess there might have been a time when we knew it was up there but didn't know at all what it was. We could feel its heat but might have misunderstood what even that was. Science has helped us put that all together. There's no such science that I'm aware of that even begins to support Maharaji's claim that there's a secret fountain of happiness within, that God's waiting to show it to you, etc. (unless, of course, you want to talk about the pineal gland and sine wave chapter in Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? :)). And the other examples are just examples of feelings. Knowledge is presented as much, much more than a feeling. What you really need to do, I think, is expand your frame of reference. Read some science, if you haven't already. Read some evolution, for one thing. The whole idea that the breath is conscious is a very naive pre-scientific superstition that flies in the face of all we know about who we are and how we got here. You should also read the Indian Background section of EPO when you can. It's at: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indian.htm Maharaji, like his brother, like their father, like their father's many competitors, like their father's guru, like their father's guru's many competitors, is just trotting out the same drivel that's overwhelmed India for hundreds if not thousands of years. Worshipping one's breath, even thinking it's conscious, might have seemed inspired and incontrovertibly appealing once. It's just supersition, though, and makes no more sense than worshipping one's blood. Once you see through the teachings, you can see the man better and won't have to contort your good mind into such bizarre and unsatisfying shapes to try to reconcile the impossible. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation www.erowid.org/spirit/devices/devices_article1.shtml

Subject: Re: Hey Jon, remember me? From: jon diener To: Jim Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:12:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah. I thought I knew that name, but coldn't place you Well youre right I was pretty morose and serious in those days. On the other hand, I thought then that you were kind of lost in your head and out of touch with your feelings and your heart and frankly you still seem to be. I apologize for being so frank when you have been rather friendly to me here in cyberspace. You could pass it off to just my premie nonsense. Anyhow I do remember you played Morning Dew and your wife was very pretty. Yes, it was at your house on King's Road that we had dinner.

Subject: That's interesting From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 14:54:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Morning Dew for sure. Yes, Deborah (not Deborah Rose who used to post here!) was pretty and yes I was in my head alright. But lost? No, Jon, I don't think so. I was just beginning to ask the questions I'd stifled in the ashram for all those years just before I met you. I was thinking, looking around, getting my feet wet as a person who could actually enjoy my mind, rather than fear or distance myself from it continually. You know, it's funny. When we first moved to LA, around the time Deb and I met you and Ronnie and shortly after we'd both left the ashram in Calgary, I borrowed two books from my dad's place: The Peoples' Almanac, Volumes One and Two. Ever seen them? Filled with tons of neat, capsule histories, curiosities, profiles. Just a grab bag of stuff which was then quite timely as the books hadn't been out long. I devoured those suckers! Like a thirst sponge I just ate up all this random, interesting stuff of the world. I remember sitting around some nights giddy with excitement that, hey, this is my time to choose to use however I damn well pleased. This was my apartment (and Deb's of course) and I can sit here, I can sit there, hey I can sit anywhere! I can even -- get this -- buy myself a whole other chair and sit there if I wanted. I could sit anywhere! It was a pleasure to be able to be a person again, Jon. If you call that feeling being cut off from my heart, go for it. I know that I was just then beginning to extricate myself from an ugly mind-control cult and it felt great. I'm sorry that you weren't able to get out as easily but I have no doubt whatsoever that if only you could see -- and feel -- what it's like over here, you'd be exhilarted too. Freedom after enslavement is like that. Now, here's a little potentially insulting speculation for you which I hope you can take in the non-malicious spirit intended. You know those books I mentioned, those James Hillman books? Remember how I said I really liked them then? Well, I have to say that my opinion's changed radically about a lot of that myth-based psychological speculation and theory. It all seems -- or a lot of it seems -- like finger-painting to me now. You can just swirl that stuff around and around and around -- forever, but you never actually get any sort of great, true picture of reality, just a lot of glistening, pretty paint on everything. I think that some of your spiritual speculation, the stuff your mind feels compelled to indulge in as you try to rationalize your continued fealty to this laughable cult leader, is like that kind of psychological gunk generally. It's a fun game but a real time-waster, I believe. Know what I mean?

Subject: Re: That's interesting From: jon diener To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:29:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well... truth is I didnt and dont know you all that well and perhaps you were experiencing a new found freedom which I took as being in your head. However, as for me indulging in speculation. Not so.Not so. The stories or ideas I have been talking about resonate very deeply within me and articulate in an expansive way the way I experience existence. Its like seeing the ssame world I see but from a wholly different angle, and with a much broader overview so that I instinctively recognize what I am hearing about, although there is much new information and perspective. I certainly did not think these things to maintain a relationship with Maharaji. For one, I have been reading the Books I mentioned since the mid 80s, long before I had heard any of the revelations about Maharaji which you find so damning of him (and which I don;t). For two, if anything, the truths in these Books brought Maharaji into question as much as they support him as they bring out truths which Maharaji does not much recognize or consider. However, I do agree with you that many concepts and ideas such as those Jungian books He, She It or whatever can become tiresome and simply mental games. I am no longer a voracious reader of 'spiritual' books. I rarely read any of that type these days with the exception of the books I have been referring to.

Subject: Oh no! That's the biggest mind-fuck of them all! From: Jim To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:57:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I didn't recognize the name but did a search and realized that you're actually talking about 'The Right Use of Will', one of the most extreme, toxic, new-age tracts of all time. I actually had a girlfriend in Hawaii when I lived there before coming to Victoria who was into that book and, swear to God, it almost drove her nuts. I mean like really, dark, middle-of-the-night breakdown time. Here's the intro from the book. CLASSIC instant disconnect of one's critical faculties if you buy into it. Like some sort of secret, potent Kung Fu pressure point, it'll put your mind out in two seconds flat -- IF you're naive enough to buy into it (sorry!): If this book is for you, you will know it from these few introductory pages. Realize it is meant to affect you and is not meant to be just a mental exercise. If this book is for you, it will bring forth emotional release. You need to allow this response without harming yourself or others. The unconditional love of the Spirit for everything that exists has been understood on Earth for quite some time. This, in fact, has been called Divine Love. Now there is a need for another understanding on Earth: that of Divine Will. Most people on Earth have made a separation between the Spirit and the Will. They have felt their own Will was not acceptable; that to love the way God loves, they must eliminate their own feelings and opinions and do what they have imagined is the Will of God. An understanding is needed here: the Will of God is not in opposition to the Will of the individual. Because of the separation that has been made in the consciousness of so many, the Will has been excluded for a long time from participating in the evolvement of the Spirit. A definite lag exists on Earth between the evolvement of the Spirit and the evolvement of the individual Will. It is now time for each Spirit to recognize, accept and evolve this other part of itself. Each Spirit is part of the Divine Consciousness and each individual Will is part of the Divine Will. Each person must take responsibility for his complete being, and not for only a part of it. The Spirit must accept its own Will and evolve it in a loving way rather than a punitive, non-accepting or unloving one. The Individual Will expresses itself as feelings. When the Individual Will feels the loving acceptance of its own Spirit, it cannot fail to come into alignment with the Divine Will. God has given each individual part of His Consciousness with which to be aware of himself, and part of His Will with which to experience himself. Everyone now wishing to remain on Earth must accept the whole being and discontinue the denial of the part of the self that experiences the Earth. and here's some of the commentary: The Right Use Of Will (RUOW) Material is a series of 8 channeled books received by Ceanne DeRohan over the last 16 years. In these books, God describes how creation came into being and the true nature of the Original Cause, which was how the Mother was denied her expression by God and literally smacked out of heaven. It was this primal event which has created all of the problems we see reflected in our world and in our relationships today. These books are very intense and difficult to process. The cosmology they present can be very challenging. They were designed to trigger our deepest fears, terror, and rage so that emotional clearing can occur and bring us into a state of healing. God and Mother have plans to move together now and we must be ready, by vibrating within a place that does not contain any guilt or denials of any kind. He suggests that this is done by having loving intent to heal by having the Spirit (Father) meet the Will (Mother) in the Heart, centered in the Body. We highly recommend these books to anyone who has already been consciously working on their emotional body. I also recommend them to Christians and/or those with Christ Consciousness. And finally, I recommend them to anyone who is aware and looking for solutions to this world's problems. This is entirely serious, insidious poison. Now that I know you're into this, Jon, I'd start praying for you if I weren't an atheist. This stuff is terrible. Jon, I said before that you should read some Dawkins. I think you most definitely should do just that and get some grounding in science with respect to how we really got here (hint: it's got nothing to do with elves, fairies or any of the other fantasy figures that crazy book pitches as real beings -- or as real as anything else is in that murky, new age world of 'relative truth' this channelled garbage festers in like a dirty bug). I think you also need to read a very important book for you and that's The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstad. I'm not kidding, Jon. You're drowning in the worst new age morass I know of if you're reading that stuff and buying it on its patently manipulative terms. Oh boy! The Right Use of Will www.dap.nl/DeRohan.html

Subject: Quotes from The Guru Papers From: Jim To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:18:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, Here is a review of this fascinating book: The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad Reviewed by Kathy Glass in Synapse Don't let the title's timely but coincidental connection to recent events in Waco, Texas, fool you into seeking more sensationalism or avoiding this book for fear of it. The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power goes far beyond an analysis of power structures in religious cults to decode authoritarianism in its more subtle and pervasive formsin values, ideologies, religions, love, and daily life, In fact, this is where it all gets interestingand very close to home. The Guru Papers is a powerful and important book with the potential to shift readers minds in a deep way. Authors Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad are onto something bigpossibly even the root of human error. This new collection of essays take the guru/disciple relationship as a starting point for unraveling the thread of authoritarianism as it is interwoven and disguised in most arenas of human interaction. Though extreme, the guru model illustrates well the workings of authoritarian power that occur less overtly in many other relationships and contexts. Insightful analytical excursions into religion and morality, dominance and surrender, fundamentalism, satanism, addiction, love, and spirituality ferret out the authoritarianism inherent in much of our cultural (and hence psychological) framework. In its wide-ranging discussion of historical and contemporary social structures, The Guru Papers shows that although authoritarianism may have once held evolving social structures together, it has become a key factor in social disintegration today. This may be easier to observe in political systems and other institutions (particularly those blatant violators of human rights) than in the worldviews, values, and conditioned responses we each live so closely with. Kramer and Alstad are relentless in their mission to 'unmask' authoritarianism in all its various guises. The book's tone is urgent, because they feel the future of humanity is in question. There is no more time to bounce from one presumed authority to another looking for answers. On every levelpersonal, familial, institutionalthere is breakdown and uncertainty as to the validity of old ways of thought and action. The authors attempt to show that on all these levels of social malfunction, authoritarianism supports and is at the core of the old way, and it impedes the emergence of new ways to handle problems from within the old framework that created them, and this includes our growing ecological crisis. The good news is that the human species isn't inherently inept or doomed to extinction. Instead, our problems are the product of authoritarian conditioning at the foundation of our morality and thus our civilization. When we see this clearly in ourselves, we can be liberated from it. This process of seeing and moving away from the influence of authoritarian power structures may hold the key to our survival. Broad critiques of modern human society (its problems and moral underpinnings) are commonplace. We all know religious issues are unresolved and that justice does not prevail. So many problems can be traced to abuse of authority. The Guru Papers differs from the usual dismal and impersonal litany not only in its basic optimism that we can overcome our collective troubles, but in its innovative examination of the 'inner authoritarian'the mechanism of control within each of us that enforces morals and guides behavior. The inner authoritarian is programmed by external authorities and operates from the beliefs and ideologies we are exposed to. Whenever we fail to question what we've adopted from these authorities, we allow others to control us. And here are some quotes culled from it for the ex-premie site: Quotes from The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad 'One of the longest experiments in history, the approximately 3,000-year-old Eastern ideology of Oneness, was first developed in the Upanishads. . . . The failure of its renunciate morality to diminish self-centeredness is a powerful statement that something is amiss. . . . It is our contention that this morality has failed not because there is something wrong with people, but because the framework constructs ideals that are impossible to achieve, thus setting people up for failure and self-mistrust.' 'The ideal of enlightenment at first blush seems completely innocent of human corruption because it is defined as being totally selfless. Yet it is this sacrosanct concept of perfection that allows authoritarianism to manifest, and indeed flourish.' 'Monotheism with one God on top is obviously authoritarian. The authoritarianism embedded within the Eastern ideology of Oneness is less obvious. . . . Whereas monotheism makes the revealed Word of God sacred, Eastern religions make presumed enlightened beings sacred. Thus the concept of enlightenment brings authoritarianism at the personal, charismatic level (gurus, masters, avatars, and buddhas).' 'Accepting selflessness as the highest value is where the insidious authoritarianism of the old order unwittingly seeps into many modern paradigms that attempt to be new.' 'Are gurus...filling deep needs and thus inadvertently pointing to trouble spots and lacks in the fabric of our culture, as well as revealing the depth of our conditioning to want authorities and mistrust ourselves?'(p.32) '...Behind much of the appeal of such authorities lies the primitive and essentially childish hope of an external and magical answer to the existential problems and fears around living and dying. The guru/disciple relationship is a formal structure of extreme authoritarianism. It thus offers a quintessential exemplar of control and surrender, displaying mechanical processes that reinforce predilections toward submission.'(p.32) 'THE GURU PAPERS critiques the guru/disciple liaison because it is a clear-cut example of the old, no longer appropriate paradigm of spiritual authority. It is not that we doubt that some who are considered gurus have deeper insights than their followers. Yet even with the best intentions, assuming the role of spiritual authority for others sets in motion a system of interaction that is mechanical, predictable, and contains the essence of corruption. Another purpose of this book is to show that corruption is not simply the failure or weakness of a specific individual, but is structurally built into any authoritarian relationship, and less obviously, any renunciate morality.'(p.35) '...Asserting that one human being fundamentally knows what’s best for another is authoritarian. If this is accepted, it sets up a chain of inevitable relational patterns that are detrimental to all players of the game.'(p.36) 'Now through media images, leaders of all sorts can charismatically control far more people than ever before, without having any personal connection with them'(p.43) 'The need to appear right when presenting oneself as a spiritual knower is greater than in any other arena because knowing is what makes one essentially different from seekers. Admitting any fallibility not only removes one from that exalted place, but makes it difficult to compete with other presumed knowers who do claim infallibility.'(p.47) 'The ostensible reason for fostering surrender is it detaches followers from certain deep conditionings presumed to be obstacles on the spiritual path. But it does not detach them from one of the most insidious and powerful conditionings of all- the predilection to look for an authority that one can trust more than oneself.' (p.50) 'A number of gurus have made statements to the effect that disobedience or disrespect of the guru has...severe negative spiritual consequences...One even said that such disrespect can bring thousands of lifetimes of pain and suffering. Whatever else is involved, it should be obvious that fear and threats are being used here for control.'(p.67) 'When magic lies at the base of authority, no matter how elevated the people appear, they are engaged in perhaps the oldest ploy of authoritarian mind control.' (p.68) 'To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the ways people can build trust in themselves.'(p.73) 'Cults need a continuous stream of recruits and potential converts to reinforce the belief that they’re 'where it’s at'- the vanguard of spirituality on the planet.'(78) 'What most proselytizing groups face is how to sell their beliefs without appearing to do so. Recruiting is therefore always done in the name of helping or doing some kind of good....to care about others is to get them to join.'(p.79) 'When dealing with others who are less certain, simply having certainty gives dominance.' (p.80) 'When the popularity and power of the group plateaus and then begins to wane...the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over...'(p.80) 'The attitude of benign superiority toward outsiders characteristic of the expansionistic phase dramatically shifts when the group turns apocalyptic. It is the outsiders who will receive the brunt of whatever cataclysm the guru claims will come.' (p.81) 'The glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some grandiose project.'(p.82) 'The potential for violence and abuse in an authoritarian cult is always there, not only because whatever the leader says goes, but also because outsiders are made into 'the Other,' which has always been used to justify violence.'(p.83) 'Both gurus and disciples use hierarchical relationships for power. Everyone on the hierarchy gets their feelings of power and specialness from where they are positioned.' (p.85) 'authoritarian hierarchies are propped up with an authoritarian worldview and morality. No matter their stated rationale, their main purpose always becomes self-perpetuation, which inevitably corrupts them.' (p.86) '...proselytizing and advertising are cut from the same cloth. The enormous attention given to appearance leads to a concern for packaging rather than what’s inside the package.'(p.88) 'Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth or power; having celebrities in one’s entourage increases coffers, influence, and membership.'(p.89) 'In the realm of sexuality, the two prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating either celibacy or promiscuity...both serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru for attention.' (p.92) 'Celibacy does allow one to maintain a certain kind of control of one’s energy and emotions. It also conforms with images of purity. Therefore, it is far easier for a guru to gain and maintain power if he is celibate - or pretends to be.'(p.92) 'Gurus who preach celibacy while secretly engaging in sexuality present sex as an esoteric initiation ritual or advanced spiritual exercise that must be kept hidden... But it is the lie, not the sex, that’s the real issue. The lie indicates the guru’s entire persona is a lie, that his image as selfless and beyond ego is a core deception.'(p.95) 'The standards of purity necessary for the role of guru must bring unconscious repression and filtering mechanisms that ensure deceit and hypocrisy around self-interest,'(p.106) Being a guru '...creates a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right and cannot be shown to be wrong - which is where learning comes from.' (p.107) 'Why would even the most realized of beings want people to become reliant on his wisdom instead of their own?' (p.108) 'The myriad scandals around sex, money, and power that have tainted so many gurus are not surprising, given the structural corruptibility of the role.' (p.113) The...'guru role makes it extremely difficult to escape the traps of power - the ultimate trap being in the end, gurus lose their humanity.' (p.114) '...The ex-disciple’s world has turned on its head: What the guru and group presented as unconditional love was conditional upon accepting their authority; the egoless guru was found to be on a manipulative, even crass, power trip. For people who surrendered totally to a guru and thus experienced passion more deeply than ever before, seeing 'The emperor wears no clothes' can be devastating. So it’s no wonder people have tremendous resistance to anything that causes them to doubt the veracity of the authority.' (p.152) 'The most extreme form of mental control occurs when the authority is trusted completely and becomes the center of one’s identity. Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood on that others know what’s best. Many people are deeply conditioned to expect and hope some outside agency, power or person will solve their problems. Letting go of expectations or even wanting this is difficult, partially because what one is left with is oneself and all of one’s limitations.'(p.154) 'True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again.'(p.154) ********** The book is all about what the authors call 'authoritarian thought structures', institutions or teachings that undermine a person's ability to think for themself, to use their critical faculties properly. Although it doesn't deal with either Maharaji or TRUOW specifically, it does address issues relevant to both. There's some excellent analysis of The Course in Miracles which parallels TRUOW in many respects. Save yourself, Jon. Quotes from The Guru Papers www.ex-premie.org/papers/gp_quotes.htm

Subject: ***GURU PAPERS QUOTES - A MUST-READ**** [nt] From: Livia To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 04:23:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dear Jon.... From: Pat W To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:00:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I want to also say that for some expremies who were caught up in a religious or unsatisfying sort of relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, I can understand your needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective. I can understand that your need is to experience life without any of your prior mindset. But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial. Perhaps it is very difficult to reconcile with some of your negative feelings. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. ......thanks for your thoughtful contributions. I definitely fall into the category of person that you describe as 'needing to move back from the whole thing to get some perspective' and also am someone who am quite ready to admit that I find my experiences with Maharaji 'very difficult to reconcile' with some of my 'negative feelings' and yes it has made some sense to 'resent and rage at someone' on whom I was 'dependent on in an unhealthy way'. That was well put. I wanted to point out that I feel that Maharaji really did foster and encourage us (maybe I should stick to 'me') to be dependent on him in an unhealthy way. Your implication seems to be that it was us who aspired to an unhealthy dependence for various reasons. Coming from a Christian sort of upbringing I certainly had my fair share of pre-conceptions about the Lord and devotion etc. but in my opinion, at that time Maharaji, if anything, encouraged us to make comparisons with him and past Avatars. He may have said he wasn't God or Jesus sometimes, but he clearly did NOT mind people seeing him this way in the least. My impression has been that he encouraged it, but differentiated himself slightly from past Masters usually by implying that he was the Greatest Manifestation yet. The way I recall things is that he played upon our pre-existing religiosity and sincerity to make us feel very privileged and awestruck that we now had this singular opportunity to be a disciple of the greatest living Perfect Master and he would constantly remind us that we should not 'blow it' and all this kind of talk (which is basically intimidating controlling language). Also the system which he set up was geared by him to make us surrender to him in every possible way. Perhaps it makes sense to resent and rage at someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way. I did a lot of that with my parents and maybe it helped me individuate. But there came a time when I needed to see that much of my blame for them was coming from my own insecurity and fears of the responsibility and the freedom of being an independent actor in life. Now I wanted also to mention that I was fortunate enough to have had a very secure, loving, stable upbringing and whilst I may have had many teenage insecurities about plunging into a world where I would be responsible and free, I don't believe I was trying to avoid 'the World ' or to seek a cosy alternate loving family. Maharaji indeed seemed to offer an alternative life of devotion where one's only responsibility would be to follow his Agya and where one's personal choices and freedoms would be effectively surrendered. But to me that was not an altogether appealing prospect - in fact it was quite daunting and hard to accept- but there was no real way around it. If you listened to what Maharaji was saying closely at the time, he was quite clear in his instruction that if you were sincere (which I was in spades) then you should do everything to separate from the world and dedicate your life to him in the ashram. Even if you were not single and free - you were encouraged to become so for the very reason of dedicating your life. So I did so somewhat reluctantly but in good faith. I say reluctantly - maybe 'sadly' is a better word because I felt I was missing out on many things I had been looking forward to doing -like playing music, dating girls, having kids etc. Basically I put my life and other aspirations on hold - and moreover I understood that this was to be a life-long sacrifice. Which of course it turned out not to be. Before I received Knowledge, at 17 I was actually very excited by the prospect of living life to the full and although I gained some benefit from practicing Knowledge (at the time when I was yearning for a deeper experience on which to build my life and make life decisions) it was a considerable sacrifice (at least that 's what it felt like) to give up the things I had wanted to do, to live according to the standards and rules that M demanded. Now, if my experience in the ashram had resulted in me feeling and becoming a more rounded, fulfilled, happier person then maybe I would now judge that the sacrifice had been worthwhile. Bit it didn't! Unfortunately, I found the ashram experience boring and frustrating and full of infectious dysfunction and pettiness. There were so many positive, interesting things I wanted to do and was frustrated about, but I confess, I really believed that Maharaji wanted me to be there and I had faith that the outcome would be worthwhile - that's why I stayed as long as I did. Notwithstanding that M really bullied us about even questioning being there. It was a very high pressure environment in the late seventies. So I can't escape the fact that whilst Knowledge initially enriched my life, the effect of dedicating it to Maharaji had the opposite effect. To conclude, it is simply not possible to trust someone who has put you through all this, and yet shows no concern afterwards. It is impossible reconcile one's former devotional love for someone who apparently receives criticism, even if it given with sincerity (as it is in my case) with scorn or simply will not address the problems people have had in the process of giving so much of their lives to him.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: AV To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:58:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..... in the heyday of what ex-premies have negatively labeled as “guru-worship”. you see you just gave the game away...IT WAS guru worship and we knew it!..that was the path my friend...why call it 'NEGATIVE LABELLING'?? It is what it is. you also say: 'But to throw out the baby with the bathwater and deny that you had any real experiences with Maharaji at all seems to me to be a form of denial.' No to deny IS denial (duh!) but people who had experiences are'nt denying them, they are trying to reconcile them with M's behaviour as an individual, clearly this has led to anxiety and trauma for many of us....we believed that he was who he implied he was , and the role he perpetuated. Why is this so often passed over by people who post here?? If you give up the part of your rational mind to the belief that M is THE living embodiment of 'the almighty on earth', then find out he is , well.....read the stories, then you are faced with the task of rebuilding your sentient mind, heart and soul piece by piece; for me, it may take the rest of my life, who knows. you refer to M as 'someone whom you were dependent on in an unhealthy way.'.....so how would you propose a healthy way to be with someone who DEMANDS your dependance?...surrender the reins of your life to me, and I will give you peace? how would you recommend someone should respond?, if you believe, and are exhorted to believe that M is Lord, what other possible interpretation could you place on such a statement, 'agya' even, than to completely throw yourself on his mercy? you say; 'there have been times when I raged at Maharaji for making life sound so simple and joyful and holding out the notion that happiness is attainable when my life was so opposite that. ' well, that's because I haven't ever met a person for whom life ever was that ideal state, certainly not close to the camp of the Lord...where all was stress and fear of blowing it, not just bliss and redemption. Tho' I had some sweet times also, many did. . We have all had our epiphanies, and I'm sure those of us that have had those visions thru' K value them, but they are a colour on the palette of life, and what we paint in our time here is not constrained, and cannot be limited to the realms of the divine alone. There is pain, physical and mental; anguish, grief, passion, playfulness, rage, all elements of the human condition. Many of us saw K as a way to ascend the negative aspects of life, and merge into a feeling of sublime unity, but we need support and real care and understanding. And if a baby was thrown out with the bathwater, it was the baby of our abilty to accept life in the raw, as it is, day by day. Even now, confronted with difficulties I try to run and hide, go back to my comfort zone, because I've been made so afraid of the big bad world it's taking me every shred of energy to try and trust again, to NOT see this world as a meaningless abode of ignorant people who 'DON'T KNOW', to not feel a pain and unreconcilable longing for a state of being which is pure and loving, and without which life is unbearable. with love.

Subject: Jon, one major point From: Will To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:46:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, There is a lot to respond to in your post. But at this moment, I would like to make just one major point that I hope you will ponder. First, thanks for using your name. Why can't the other premies who post here do that? But to start my main point, I strongly urge you to further investigate what is known about all the gurus and cults present in the world today and in the last century. You can easily do this on the web, there are several good sites about gurus and cults. You will get a more complete picture about cults and how the Rawat cult fits into the picture. Being a conduit for wisdom and love-feelings is one thing, and we can all do that honorably with each other to some extent, but the dynamics of cultism is something else entirely, and we must distinquish between the two. Believe me, everything you say about Maharaji has been said countless times by the devotees of every master out there, and there are literally hundreds. Maharaji is guilty of every single cult error there is, and not just in the 70's, but now. I see that you know about Rajneesh and others, but you favor your own guru too easily. I think you deal with the issue of the Master as God in the only logical way that a student of Rawat can. But it is obvious to me, from what you say, that you have accepted a certain major falsehood. You sometimes say 'Maharaji and Knowledge' as if that were a singularity. And in your experience and in your habitual thinking, the two are tied up together. But this is the central lie of the guru and cultism. Once the teacher can get the student to make this connection, all of cultism then follows. A true teacher would NEVER set himself up as the source of divine grace for his students. And what is the harm? The harm is that we should look toward the true source with gratitude and humility, but it is a giant mistake to look toward another mortal human being with that gratitude and humility. Any human being who sets himself up in this manner is a fake, a usurper of the power of life. He then set himself up to be served as only the Truth should be served. At the Knowledge session we are instructed to see the teacher as the giver of our own inner experience. A greater blasphemy than this does not exist. Yet, people do fall for this hook. All of Rawat's students give him the credit for their inner experience. The more that a student gives Rawat the credit for what lies intrinsically within him, the more devoted to the teacher he becomes. Eventually, every good thing that the student feels, the teacher gets the credit for that, and every bad thing that the student feels, he gives himself the credit for that. Thus, the more the student follows the guru, the less self power he gathers. You, yourself, have expressed this, although in a rather mild way. Again, Jon, I can only urge you to investigate and to ponder further. From that one lie, the guru spells failure for his students and his own mission. Take a good look at Prem Rawat's public image, and what kind of prospects he has in this world. And then take a good look at how you and other premies are pursuing life's truths. You will see a great narrowness in your efforts, a narrowness that the universe does not share with you. There is a grand separation in you as long as you connect yourself to another particular human being as your Master/ teacher, and to his particular mission in the world. By attempting to connect with the human teacher, you are inadequately connecting with YOUR OWN POWER. You will never fully self-realize. And that was idea, remember? Rawat and his students will never be anything other than a very minor cult, scorned by society for all the right reasons: the fundamental lie of the guru and all the cultism that follows that lie. You say that you travel to a city far away that you don't like because the good feelings from Rawat are worth it. And you relate to him only as a "helper" along the way, not your Master. Well, that is certainly not what he says about himself. And this is putting him on the level of a drug or any other stimulus from outside of you. One thing that every ex learns is that the good feelings we feel around Rawat are available to us even when we divorce ourselves from him. I don't know if you will believe me, but I still feel that good feeling of Holy Name even when I'm shouting "Kick the guru to the curb!" It was hard for me to make the break, just a few years ago, but I don't miss him at all. All the good stuff is still with me, as it always was. We exes don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, if you define the baby as being our own heart, but it you define the baby as those four techniques, then go ahead and drown that baby and you can still connect. That's what we want, right? We want the connection. Remember, never say 'Maharaji and Knowledge' as a singularity. Never say 'Rawat and Self-Knowledge' as a singularity. Thanks for posting.

Subject: p.s. to Jon From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I responded to your post here before I read your post below in which you give a defense of Rawat's objectionable activities and you recommend a series of books that describe the imbalances that occurred in the early part of creation. Having read that post I now realize that you are in a whole different head-space than I thought, specifically, you are a nut! BTW, approximately how many people were in attendance at the Pasadena program?

Subject: Re: p.s. to Jon From: jon diener To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:01:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Afte reading your first post, I thought you a rather intelligent sensitive individual. Having read this post I now realize that you are in a whole different head space than I thought. Specifically, you are a closed minded intellectual dwarf. Do you really believe God has always been perfect and it is just we humans that are so dysfunctional as to rape, kill and rob each other on mass thoughout history. Open your mind fellow. Or is it you only believe that God is male ? Or perhaps, you don;t believe God existed in any way we can know about or if He/she does exist we couldn't know about or understand God's existence prior to the existence of humans. If so, you are quite limited in what you are willing to consider or think about. However, I do realize these ideas are soemwhat difficult to work with. On the other hand, I did laugh when I read your post calling me a nut. I ought to tell you about God and the Divine MOther's early attempts at a sexual relationship. Then you'll really know have some thing to call me nuts over. I think there were about 2500 to 3,000 in Pasadena, but thats just a guess.

Subject: Re: p.s. to Jon From: Will To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 06:55:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No hard feelings! Thanks for answering my question about the attendance at Pasadena.

Subject: God and the Divine Mum From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 03:44:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your ideas about God and the divine mother - um, how did you find this out? I mean, did God tell you what happened or did somebody else? If so, who? And what are that person's credentials? Come on, you've got to be more specific if you really don't want to be considered a nut. Did you read it somewhere? Who wrote the book? Maybe the person who wrote it was totally nuts!!! If you want to be taken seriously here, um, I think it's probably not a great idea to throw ideas around like God and the divine mother having sex at the beginning of creation, without being able to explain that this is more than a quaint and frankly mad idea you've picked up from somewhere. Well? Livia

Subject: Re: God and the Divine Mum From: jon diener To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:09:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, You are absolutely right. However, revealing the source of my information may only make matters worse. Nevertheless, there are a series of books written by a channel who currently lives in Santa Fe, N.M. by the name of Ceanne DeRohann. These books are quite unabashedly channelled from God Himself who talks about His early experiences with sex and many, many other things. I wouldn't have ever believed it myself except for the fact that after reading the first book and those thereafter, they rang so true and contained such amazing information, that frankly I think the Big Guy in the Sky did channell them.

Subject: Re: God and the Divine Mum From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 16:18:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, I do appreciate your honesty in coming clean about your source. However, I have a problem with channelling in that I have an instinctive suspicion of it as a source of anything actually real. Could be the people who believe in it (no offence, honestly - you seem refreshingly intelligent compared to some of the people I have met over the years who are into channelling etc.) What you are seeing as the voice of God is a 'flow of consciousness' phenomenon emanating straight from the person claiming to be a chanel. If the words resonate with what you already believe, then they 'ring true' for you. Recently I was with a friend who suddenly turned to me and said something highly significant and that had particular resonance for me. What I think was happeneing was that she was 'coming from the right-hand side of her brain' at that moment, the right-hand side being the side that governs intuition and creativity. What she said was deep and meaningful for me and she felt it too. Creative people have highly significant moments, when they feel they have accessed something of huge value. But one shouldn't put interpretations on moments or experiences of that sort - just enjoy them and appreciate them. That way you stay a lot freer. So in a way I'm not saying that this God and the divine Mum thing is complete baloney - maybe there is a subtle interplay between male and female principles going on at the core of our/universal consciousness. I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say that the very idea is total and utter bollocks. But the way you put it - God and the divine mother - is so loaded with concepts as to be frankly over-simplistic and actually somewhat silly - sorry, but however you look at it, to call it more than an interesting speculation is presumptious in the extreme. You can't just go around believing everything you like the sound of! Read up about creativity and right and left hand brain activity, and try and drop your ideas about God - they don't do you any credit. Best to you, Livia

Subject: Re: God and the Divine Mum From: Thorin To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:38:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon Ahhh now things are neatly falling into place! Yes it sure is fun creating nice little stories and how we all fit into them (hey look at my name - straight out of middle earth) but do you really really believe in the Land of Pan/Pangea? No really!? Honestly? :) If it is books that inspire you please read The Blind Watchmaker, or if you have already, please re-read. warmly, Thorin

Subject: The Blind Watchmaker? Exactmente! From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 15:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, You could do no better than to read some Dawkins. Honestly.

Subject: Could you be more specific, Will? From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:33:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said to Jon: ''Having read that post (his apologism for Rawat's immorality) I now realize that you are in a whole different head-space than I thought, specifically, you are a nut!'' Could you specify what kind of nut please? :C) I think that's the first time I've ever seen you lose your patience with someone. You're so trusting. Jon's post reeked of insincerity from the start so his spin doctor post for Rawat's immorality came as no surprise.

Subject: Re: Could you be more specific, Will? From: Will To: PatC Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 12:41:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Pat, Well, the nuttiest part was about God and the Divine Mother being all fucked up and confused when they started the creation, and how even today's Perfect Masters still have some unbalances as a result. With premies like that, who needs ex-premies?

Subject: I can't tell anymore, Will From: PatC To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:30:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Since Roupell started playing games here, I can't tell if premie apologists are joking, believe their own crap or are simply out to lunch.

Subject: the Candy Bar of Bliss From: Gregg To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for taking the time to type up yr thoughts, Jon. As you know, ex-premie stances on mystical experiences are all over the map. Some see them as delusional synaptical dysfunctional trips, others (inc. myself) still actively pursue them. As one whose dalliances with the spirit dated to a decade before premiedom and two decades after leaving, I do have opinions about how Prem Pal fits into all this. First of all, the 'realness' of experience. Yes, but it would be a mistake to draw all kinds af assumptions from this perception. The relationships between perception, thought, emotion, reality and Reality are nuanced and infinitely complex. Simplicity reigns, ultimately, but not on a human level. I had experiences of this sort too, but as JHB points out, setting is important. What you believe is important. And it is important to look at the whole truth about Maharaji. Who is he on an emotional level, on the level of social justice, all these things that are part of who we are, who we are striving to be as members of the human community? Lastly, many of us who post here are not angry. We'd just like PWK's and aspirants to be honest skeptics as well as devoted followers. Blindness is never a good thing. Hey, I have a guru, and I'm always asking myself if he's a fraud or not, cuz I never asked those questions with M, and that wasn't good. Turns out doubt doesn't diminish real experience. 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind.' !!!!

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: Sir Dave To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 04:44:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, you only have to look at the Japanese fans of English football team Captain, David Beckham, to see that they too are experiencing joy and unalloyed bliss, while watching the World Cup in Japan. You believed Maharaji was the Lord, so you had an experience of same. This happened to me too for a while. If you believed Dame Edna Everage was God incarnate, you'd no doubt experience something powerful in her (his) presence too Maharaji did finally own up when he said that darshan worked because we believed it would.

Subject: jon, don't forget-- From: janet To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:15:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are speaking to us. we were all there. we did it too. we had experiences. we had feelings.we faced all the same kinds of struggles that you did, and worked thru them as you did, in our own ways. you need not address us as if you are apart from us, or as if we never 'really' had the experience. of Knowledge. we did. that's why we're here. myself, i grew tired and more and more offended over time as I saw and heard and felt maharaji and his surrounding crowd display anything but what should have been the likely outcome of what knowledge promised, was sold to us as being based on. I felt myself getting pushed farther and farther to the edges, getting more and more alienated at each new encounter, with the way the organization morphed over time. I date back to 1973 with this, and i hung on by the skin of my teeth until 2000, whenfinally I realized that it wasn't me who had left him, --- it was more truthful to say that i realized that he had finally left me! and yes, i went thru a period of confusion and hurt and anger as I then had time to look at all the things I had put beleif into for those 27 years, but I gave myself space to let what was worth keeping afterward, emerge. some days i yearn to go all the way back to how i used my mind before I met premies and MJ. I don;t think i can. and strangely enough, sometimes when i give up yearning, the very best of what i remember happening in the best times with premies, suddenly comes out, and I'm feeling it and watching it with people who have never had Knowledge or known the premie world. but all the good I can remember, and all the good I have ever heard anyone describe experiencing--and i now add yours to my collection of such accounts-- none of it mitigates or excuses the bad, that has been happening and still is, to this hour, that we know for unarguable fact comes form him. it does nothing to mitigate what jagdeo did to kids and where that still stands today. it does nothing to address the secrecy, the hypocrisy, the harm. it does nothing to make up for that bicyclist that died under the wheels of his car in india, from which he ran and dishonestly left another to take the rap. it does nothing to mitigate his alcoholism, drug use, unfaithfulness, usery of women he bedded and then wouldn't see afterward. it doesn't come close to addressing the way he has fed off the energy, labor, money and time of others and then put himself up as if he did something to deserve having it from them. the list goes on, Jon. i basically give someone a lot of rope, and then go along to see what they do with it. the good ones use the rope to do something constructive that benefits one and all admirably. the worthless ones always hang themselves with it. the evil ones use it to try and hang someone else. but it's a magic rope. even when they try to, it still ends up hanging them, becuase it knows who it's supposed to hang if they attempt to do that. truth will out, Jon. strength of character will prove itself. and pleas egive this a thought or two' yeah, wouldnt you feel like he does, if you were born into the life he was? never have to get a job, never have to obey thelaw, never know how the 'little people' live, be worshipped from birth and have absolutely no one deny you, refuse you, punishyou, make you tow the line, never know what normal, ordinary life is?? I think a real test would be to strip him of all his comforts and luzuries and set him in a place where he could not reach any of the things he is accustomed to, and then see if he has what you sensed as that joie de vivre. maybe his plane could go down in rough seas and he'd survive the wreck on an island, like in survivor. maybe he could go to prison and serve an ordinary sentence among the general population inmates. maybe he could come down with something terminal and awful with a long prognosis until death--something like paralysis, or cancer, or parkinsons--something slow and progressive that would rob him of all his faculties inexorably but not kill him yet. and then both we and he could see what kind of stuff his real mettle is made of. take away all the booze, the money, the nicotine, the THC, the sex, the fame, the power, the panache, put him completely cut off from all that he lives with and always has. and then see what becomes of him..

Subject: Could you send me a copy of the tape? From: JHB To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:58:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, I am the webmaster of www.ex-premie-org and in spite of what many say, I do try to present a balanced view on the website. If you could send me a copy of the tape where Maharaji talks about the ashrams, I will make sure the passage you quote is printed alongside Maharaji's other pronouncements about the ashrams. Regarding the rest of your post. Your position hinges on whether the profound experiences you had were somehow initiated by Maharaji. No one here doubts that such profound experiences happen. Most here, including myself, have had them. There have been many discussions about how such experiences appear to be inspired by Maharaji, and for me the mosat likely explanation is simply our readiness to have the experiences, and the situation we found ourselves in where he was the focus of our attention. I think the killing argument against any uniquely divine power in Maharaji is that followers of other gurus report exactly the same experiences as you, and use exactly the same argument to supprot the divinity of their guru. It's an interesting phenomenon, worthy of further study, but not, in my opinion a reason to dedicate your life to another human being. And then lets look at the human being. From many independent reports he is a heavy drinker of alcohol. He regularly smoked cannabis. He has a mistress, as well as having numerous affairs. Even if he had some divine power, would you want to trust him? John.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: hamzen To: jon diener Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 23:18:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well having taking a similar line to yourself, although having had less 'cosmic' experiences around gm, and been down the grateful dead and acid route too, and picking up on the vibe of your post have some empathy with where you are coming from, but think you are naive about consciousness. I have met any number of people over the years who had different gurus from meher baba to sai baba to rajneesh who have had similar intense experiences around their guru too. Now how can that be if their heads aren't involved in those expereinces, and that leaves out followers of the nigerian guru maharaji who nicked gm's package wholesale and has followers experiencing exactly what you are talkin about. Did you also know about the spot in the brain that when a magnet is placed over it, produces direct experiences of god? Check out persinger for startas on google. There is no other way to put it, but you are being very naive. It's the problem with our generation, we were so naive about consciousness we assume that experiences are what they appear to be. And anyway what's so wrong in admitting that set and setting can have a profound effect on us? hamzen who still has a wicked time meditating on the k techniques, which by the way are bog standard raj yoga techniques and not at all unique to gm, who still gets that intense light ting around people and that deep satsang vibe too, even though I think gm is a pile of shit.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: jon diener To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:47:22 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: You were into the Dead? Its funny ... I was living on Wall St. outside of Boulder when Maharaji came there. So there were hundreds of hippies wandering around and hundreds of cars on this remote dirt road where me and maybe half a dozen other people lived when I came home one night.. so I went over there the next day and there was a vibe that was so high and good that my first thought was the Grateful Dead are here. It actually took me a few minutes to figure out that that wasn't the case. But the fact is I have met devotees of Rajneesh and I never got a feeling they had anywhere near the kind of experiences I had with Maharaji. I also don't preclude the possibility that another guy is alive who can turn on people like Maharaji does. But noone I have read about or heard about from people tells me so. Although I think Ram Dass's Maharaji may have been something quite special. And I think Werner Erhard openned a lot of doors for some people at a certain level. I think youre right that higher conciousness is not the sole property of Maharaji. I'll take inspiration and help on my path however and wherever I can get it. Maharaji has been the most reliable and best source I have found. I shouldn't need external help you may say. Well I haven't come to that understanding yet. It seems like I do need something more than what I can muster. At least for me, I am trying to break free very some very deeply ingrained and painful patterns. If it appears someone can aid me in this, yeah. Besides I enjoy Maharaji. As unpleasant as it is to drive 12 hours to L.A. (and be in L.A.) to see him, I enjoy the feelings I get enough to warrant it on that basis alone. Maybe being naive is really just not being cynical.

Subject: Re: my experiences and reflections From: Sumray To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:32:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a former devotee of Rajneesh, I can say the same thing. When I used to meet premies, I thought their version of bliss was just a copy of Osho's bliss. Anyway as far as I can remember we were proud to have bought him 17 Rolls Royce's, you premies always lied. It's all guru-related ego Jon. The best freedom is leaving any of these cults. Be master of your own experience, no need for God or gods or power houses(ha ha that's a good one, both Maharaji and Osho used to use that one). Don't mean to take the piss, but I just can't help it. S.

Subject: Go on! Take the piss, Sumray From: PatC To: Sumray Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always thought you guys were so much more open, happy and self-confident than us poor downtrodden premies but I was convinced that you were deluded. :C) Thnaks for your input.

Subject: Hey! another ex-sannyasin? :) From: cq To: Sumray Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:22:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Was Sumray your sannyas name? thinks ... how to ask if it was Swami Sumray or Ma Sumray? OK, here goes: Erm, ... excuse me for asking, but are you a man or a woman? Whaddya mean 'Yes'? ;) Bests Chris (formerly Swami Prem Tusheer)

Subject: Swami Prem Tusheer? From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:34:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Tusheer the Hindi for tuchus?

Subject: I think Bhagwan just wanted me to sit down From: cq To: PatC Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:49:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: as in ... 'Oi, you - tush 'ere'. PS what's 'tuchus' mean?

Subject: Tuchas is Yiddish for tush [nt] From: PatC To: cq Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 11:48:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Naive? Just an excuse From: Jethro To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:14:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Maybe being naive is really just not being cynical.' No it's just an excuse for not seeing what is happening. No doubt you are one of those people who walk on by when someone is being raped or beaten up in the street. You are following someone who allows his closest to rape and misuse their positions. Anyway like HE once said, 'those who are not for me are against me' (I think he lifted that from Jesus Christ).

Subject: Couldn't agree more, Except From: Tim G, To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't do the meditation thing anymore. I HAVE thrown out the baby with the bathwater....and find that life is just as magical and ten times more spontaneous. I see that nailing down the potential of life to a few measly techniques, a Master (so-called) or a set of beliefs insults the magnificence of the universe. There is also the whole issue of m's lack of personal integrity and his supreme arrogance and lack of empathy with those close to hi m that makes me wonder has he ever experienced this bliss he whines on about. I'm sorry, but to me he is clearly a businessman in the spiritual market. With a big grin. Tim P.S. Hi Hamzen. Any news on the remix? I've got an engineer/musician from Brixton staying who is teaching me Logic Audio.....back to school. Brilliant fun and quite head-wrecking

Subject: Leaders Article From: Just wondering To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 17:12:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have seen the article on TPRF site, it seems to be cut off mid sentence. Has the remainder of the interview been posted here? or EPO? or elsewhere?

Subject: Re: Leaders Article From: Richard To: Just wondering Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:31:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here are the other 4 pages of the Leaders 'interview' forwarded to me by a FOF (friend of forum). They are PDF files viewable with Acrobat Reader available free from Adobe's website. Each page is about 1mb. Warning, do not operate machinery after reading as it will make you drowsy. http://64.45.46.159/lead/L168.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L169.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L170.pdf http://64.45.46.159/lead/L171.pdf

Subject: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Peter R. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:26:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In his interview on Online Noetic Network Mitch Ditkoff makes a very strong and quite poetic case for the value of the experience of Knowledge given by Maharaji. While acknowledging that this requires some effort to sustain, he has, however, no hesitation whatever in describing this state as divine: 'Most of us are living in a very linear and logical mental state, doing the commerce of the world and tending to all that makes the world go round. There is another dimension which is free of all the habits of mind…. That experience is referred to in every single religion since the beginning of time. Every path, regardless of its name or teacher, is about turning within to the core of being…. The qualities, in my experience, of this inner place are all divine.' In his riposte, Will says: 'To me, mind and spirit and consciousness are not distinqishable (sic), so I don't make a distinction. Even my most 'deepest' meditation experiences have been mental states. Whenever somebody tries to distinquish (sic) a state of being vs a state of mind, I doubt the validity of what they are saying. And whenever somebody talks about the very 'CORE of being,' I get suspicious!' He goes on to say: 'However, I have experienced states of mind that are unordinary and beyond the usual, quite beyond the usual. I know what states of mind that LSD can produce, for example, including the complete absence of ego and a much larger than usual perspective.' One assumes here that even while in deepest trip, Will still retained his personal consciousness enough to observe the happening, thereby viewing it later as an extraordinary but definitely mental event. This causes me to wonder what Will would regard as a spiritual event. Would one have, for example, to enter the classic yogic state of samadhi described over the ages, in which the individual consciousness is reportedly dissolved into the superior power to such a total degree as no longer objectively to exist? I have never heard any reports of practicing premies or ex-premies ever undergoing the latter. Maybe they do exist (hidden away in nursing homes, totally fused out, inner circuitry incalculably blown?), but I think I doubt it. The above considerations highlight, however, the cardinal semantic difficulty which bedevils much discussion of K even between long-time ex-/practitioners. How can we ever know whether an experience is of the spirit or of the mind? IMO, however, I do believe that there are conditions in which we are truly experiencing spirit, while with full and total consciousness. Some of my profoundest experiences of such type actually pre-date hearing of Maharaji, and I'd like to mention them here to find out whether anyone else experienced anything comparable. (Please forgive this being a longish post, but I can't find a reasonable way around this..) In the immediate years before encountering Maharaji, I lived abroad, teaching English to foreigners. After finishing teaching one day, I went to the local café to relax. Quite suddenly I experienced an incredible feeling of beatitude. My mind felt released from surrounding barriers of thought, and I sat in total clarity, as though atop a warm fountain streaming inside of me, removed from the thoughts which continued to throw themselves up and fall away again. The effect lasted two or three hours, and I left it only with great reluctance when some of my students appeared, and I was compelled to return to the usual yapping consciousness. Over the following days, as a lingering after-effect remained, I pondered hard a paradox which had presented itself inescapably to me: Though the outside world had problems, I had always thought myself free in my mind, not realising that the finite reasoning mind was in fact a type of prison itself. The café had been another, realler world, in which I had felt much more wholly myself, free from the walls of the mind which constrained me. I began to see my own condition something like someone on an ocean voyage, who has wandered from the deck down into the depths below, into the boiler room or the chart room, where the computer gadgetry and so on lay, and become totally beguiled. The fascination was such I believed that to be the voyage itself, rather than the rushing sea, the widest, clearest skies, the most refreshing perfumes of the winds above. One or two days later I was in the British Council Library, and selected a book on Mysticism, about which I knew nothing, but looked interesting. Taking it home, I found the self-same experience described to my café one, but in terms of the mystical quest of the ages, wherein the individual returns to the Godhead or source by transcending the individual everyday ego. I found this extremely confronting but invigorating, feeling that perhaps for the first time in my life I was embarked upon something really essential, and which, I was starting to feel, I could not escape even if I wanted to. I had taken LSD a couple of times, and other substances at uni, but merely from peer-pressure, and this furnished me now with no useful guidelines. I felt somehow that the present journey hadn't the faintest relationship to such former occupations, and evoked memories of a much earlier era, intimations of childhood unity with surroundings, the special relationship I had enjoyed with many natural sensations, before my whole attention had become absorbed into my mental labyrinth. In the following months, I had further repetitions of the same café state, unpredictable always as to where and when, though deeply sought, and thought endlessly about consciousness and what our own internal limitations were. I was experiencing a lot that was good. Teaching university students was inspiring, and at times I felt driven to plot out short stories and notes for my eventual novel.. Simultaneously, however, I was feeling some alarm. That I had allowed myself to become enmeshed in questions I couldn't resolve, where the answers that came to me were not of my own volition, and more like a Jungian play of synchonicities. Finally, one night, I was in my flat, lying restlessly awake, my mind flooding with imagery and endless speculations. Eventually I gave up all pretence at sleep and paced the room. I then found myself back in the new world, as though I had crossed some endless but magical sea. Totally wondrous..One part of me was undoubtedly paranoid, however. I then heard a quiet internal voice which said to me absolutely clearly: This is the Kingdom of God. You have sought it everywhere else, but it was inside you all the time. I felt exhilarated but extremely perplexed, wondering: How can this be the Kingdom of God, if I am inside myself? I then saw a vision of a giant goblet, with a connecting line to a much smaller version of itself. I understood then that the larger represented the endless Self, while the smaller was my own limited one, connected together, but in essence one and the same. The following day I called in sick, left my students to their own devices, and took a long walk in the woods outside town. I felt I had travelled through an inner black hole into some miraculously new time-space parameters. I was thinking, sure, but experiencing all sensations with a totally renewed vitality and awareness. Everything fitted together in a way it hadn't for ages. Only one thing bothered me: not being able to give a name to the new area of consciousness I had discovered. And then the word came to mind most easily - my Soul. The land in which the Infinite touched my finite smaller being was my Soul. The Soul known as an everyday concept to people some centuries before, but in my case so covered in patina by mental preoccupations, the sad existentialisms of the times, and burdens of over-learning to be choked over with weeds and indiscernible, until it had perhaps decided to rediscover me. When receiving Knowledge, I believed this was a key to uniting, to an extremely benevolent and non-destructive extent with the soul within, and to harmonising the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being. I don't know if this posting strikes any harmonies with anyone else, but it's what came to mind when reading Mitch and Will's very interesting offerings.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Thorin To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:33:50 (PDT) Email Address: thorinlon@yahoo.com Message: Dear Peter As one samadhi seeker to another :) I very much enjoyed reading your journey (pre K). Many thanks for taking the time to write that very personal journey. The cafe 'timeliness' was truly scintillating (and I mean that). I very much look forward to hearing from you again. What I would personally like to know about very much (sincerely) is if you managed to harmonise the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being - as you so eloquently put it. I, for one, believe this is fully possible and that we all have the required tools to achieve this. I would also go on and state, quite postively, that without the shackles of guruism that it is far easier, richer and more rewarding. However, even after I have just pinned my flag to the mast (as it were) I am sincerely interested to know what your perspective is and your journey post K. I want to listen to you. Warmly, Thorin

Subject: Something plus nothing equals something From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 13:39:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Peter As one samadhi seeker to another :) I very much enjoyed reading your journey (pre K). Many thanks for taking the time to write that very personal journey. The cafe 'timeliness' was truly scintillating (and I mean that). I very much look forward to hearing from you again. What I would personally like to know about very much (sincerely) is if you managed to harmonise the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being - as you so eloquently put it. I, for one, believe this is fully possible and that we all have the required tools to achieve this. I would also go on and state, quite postively, that without the shackles of guruism that it is far easier, richer and more rewarding. However, even after I have just pinned my flag to the mast (as it were) I am sincerely interested to know what your perspective is and your journey post K. I want to listen to you. Warmly, Thorin --- If there is no 'deeper soul' you can still get your 'integrated' human being. Something plus nothing still equals something.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Pat W To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 18:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When receiving Knowledge, I believed this was a key to uniting, to an extremely benevolent and non-destructive extent with the soul within, and to harmonising the rational thinking process with the deeper soul to achieve the necessary internal integration of a human being. Same for me...I think now though that the wonderful experiences we had, so to speak, 'through Knowledge' were more due to our own sincerity and intentions rather than some 'blessing' from Maharaji himself. In other words we empowered hm as a mirror - and got a bit too carried away in the process. Being taught meditation by M was so inextricably mixed up with agendas about how to follow him -doing service and satsang etc. and going to see him all the time - I now feel that a lot of what I opened myself up to in that trusting state was simply unneccessary and in the long term, a distraction from the initial catalytic good effect I experienced (which was largely the experience I had before guiltily feeling that I had to follow his demands to 'surrender') . Otherwise why would I at 25 (8 years on from receiving K aged 17) find myself incredibly confused about why I had become a renunciate monk and undeniably experiencing a LESS beatific sense of union with the beloved God of my childhood as a result of obeying and listening to the so-called Lord incarnate's Agya. You talk about rational thinking, and I agree that one would dearly hope and even assume that the mind would work better when 'soaked' with experience of what we call 'soul' or God. I tend to think Maharaji's influence was initially beneficial in that through meditation and a sincere attitude one could undoubetdly amplify within oneself all these deep aspirations and good feelings. This is where the trust in him was formed which I now feel was dangerous. Externally Maharaji was making all sorts of suggestions and demands that in retrospect really seemed to be more about us kowtowing to his own authoritarian agenda than him being the loving teacher who would guide us to become the conscientious, rounded, integrated human beings that you and I no doubt aspire to being. After all, even Maharaji would seem to have made a number of mistakes and be a pretty troubled person himself, if the stories of his long term alcohol habits etc. are to be believed. There are 2 reasons why I have come to question the 'authority' of Maharaji and his trustworthiness in this rather important matter of my soul. I hasten to add that Maharaji has not satisfactorily answered these questions for me yet. Firstly I grew to feel extremely uncomfortable with the cold-often inhumaness that I saw around me, as a result of, what I saw as, people believing this idea that one's ego and personality and the conscientious maintenance thereof, is a distraction from the process of Knowledge - of less importance than just practicing Knowledge zealously. In other words many of us surrendered our 'minds' as instructed but what Maharaji gave us in return was a very moulded and unnatural group think. I was very unhappy and confused about that and felt a sense of loss in my life. M's answer- 'It was all your fault - you guys got the wrong end of the stick- screwed up.' An apology? Nothing so far has reached my ears. Secondly, Maharaji himself seems such an ego-centric and transparent person in many ways, that one can't help feeling that he has possibly more to learn about being a rounded human being than oneself. At the very least he probably did back then as a spoilt school kid. This is where some confusion and then resentment comes in about how he took advantage of our youthful sincerity and trust, our and filled our neccessarily 'emptied buckets' with his favourite Indian ideas about there being a Perfect master and the whole attendant devotional style religion that he grew up in, with all it's intimidation and medieval hierarchy and hipocrisies. I resent that he imposed that on me because it turned out to be a an unpleasant dead-end. I mean, he has now cut some of that stuff from the agenda but I was always uncomfortable with it from the start. Did he ask me for my advice then? No way..we basically had to bottle our own intuitions and ideas about how to behave, and instead waste years of our lives acting out his flawed plans for us. Especially if you lived in an ashram. All this presumably just to satisfy his vision of himself as being in command and with the dubious benefit to us that our personalities and conscience (and actual lives) were dying from lack of attention. Oh..and one can't forget of course, that we empowered him, not just with megalomaniac confidence in himself, but also a huge amount of money. Money which he has invested (thanks mainly to the good advice of premies) and is now beyond rich. What is telling is that he appears to think that life simply owed him this fortune and describes himself variously as 'an investor' or 'inventor', 'pilot' or 'business-man'. with apparently little acknowledgement of the sacrifices that we all made doing 'service'. Maybe he is too comfortable and has literally bought his currently enjoyed position of unnaccountability. M's answer to all this -'If you don't like it -Walk.'

Subject: Good point about the money, Pat From: Livia To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:35:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a good point about the money, Pat. He basks comfortably in his millions, denying that he was ever 'God' and yet he must know that the money was donated to him by people who sincerely believed he was divine. Premies just wouldn't have given money in such huge amounts for his comfort and enjoyment if they thought he was a mere mortal - no way! However much they enjoyed the meditation - no way! 'He's the best - he must have the best' was the driving force behind all those direct donations. Plus there's the unsavoury rumours we have heard that some of the money donated for propogation ended up in his cffers... It doesn't bear thinking about, any of it. There's such powerful proof of his cynicism here. Rake in the money on the strength of premies' belief that you're the Lord. Years later, deny that you were ever the Lord, blame the very concept on the premies, but keep the money! And the poor innocent premies out there still don't believe he enjoys that stuff for its own sake. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Ho hum. Love, Livia

Subject: And good point, Liv, re homeopathy From: Jim To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was an excellent analogy.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: wandering frog To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 19:20:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post, Pat. Very well put. A must-read for all culters. Many thanks.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: Will To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 15:03:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter R, Thanks for your remarks. Are we going to hear the rest of your story, post-Knowledge session? I've learned here that people came to Knowledge for different reasons. I think the 'types' of premies have been delineated here by somebody a year or two ago, something like: (1)those actively searching for the transcendent, (2)those who were attracted to the saving-the-world-message of early DLM, (3)those who were attracted to the loving community, (4)gopi types, (5)utter nut cases, etc. Personally, at this point, I can't understand how the enlightenment seekers could still follow Maharaji since he never really talks the way that you yourself talked just now. He even goes so far as to forbid questions about enlightenment in his meetings with his students. And I really don't think that practicing Knowledge really advances a person toward the type of enjoyable consciousness that you describe. So did following the guru and the practice of Knowledge promote your experience, or hinder it, or what? As for your question about what I would regard as a 'spiritual event', I think I will say that the God term that I like best is Universal Mind, meaning that the universe itself has a physical and mental side to it just as we little creatures do. So mind and spirit to me have no distinction even at the highest level. Eating a pineapple would therefore qualify as a spiritual event. In other words, I think the word 'spiritual' is problematic at best, always potentially misleading, and ultimately meaningless. As for the Rawatian distinction between the 'mind' and 'Knowledge,' I find such a teaching to be horribly simplistic, no better than Saturday morning cartoon depictions of the angel and devel atop a person's shoulders. Mind, spirit, and body should never be pitted against each other. This is the religious scourge which has generously supplied humankind with an endless supply of needless suffering. You ask if others have had unsolicited peek moments or days. I remember times in my childhood when the beauty of nature would make me swoon, and then I was left with a peaceful 'clarity' of thought, able to laugh at people's problems, including my own. These episodes often happened on days or in places that are not ordinarily considered especially beautiful, such as a simple brick road and a few old bare trees on a gray day in November. Which brings us to the subject at hand, the guru, which you didn't quite get to. My opinion is that Guruism is for people who have very little regard for themselves and the world they live in, and who think there is something better that they are supposed to attain. Guruism actually supplies zero TRUE benefits for anyone, including the guru, certainly not the benefits advertised. The perceived benefits are on the level of drug taking, which is not to say they are absolutely worthless; the benefits are just rather minorly worthwhile, mostly imaginary, and prone to all kinds of dilemmas. Gurus should be scorned and laughed at. Students should all walk. What do you think?

Subject: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Peter R. To: Will Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:12:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi,Will, Thanks to yourself and PatW for your replies. I haven't got immediate time for a more fulsome reply. However, would it be possible to have your email addresses for possible future correspondence? Best wishes to both of you.

Subject: Re: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Pat W To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:49:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sure Peter...my email's patrick@patrickwilson.com Anytime

Subject: Re: Thanks to PatW and Will From: Will To: Pat W Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 10:20:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: PR - My email that you should use is willwilliams38@hotmail.com, although I don't check it everyday. Pat - I enjoyed your post, stated in a way that everyone should at least be able to understand even if they don't concur.

Subject: Re: Mitch and Will Revisited From: The Falcon To: Peter R. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really enjoyed your post and have experienced similar epiphanies through meditation (so-called knowledge, zazen, cabbala, mindfulness, Taoist alchemy) exhaustion, acid and, the big one, DMT. Life is the only teacher.(No guru necessary)

Subject: 'Watergate: Legacy of Secrets' Tonight OT From: Cynthia.....FYI To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:56:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For anyone who would like to revisit the Watergate-Nixon debacle there's a special on tonight at 10:00 on Discovery Channel. I saw Ben Bradley, David Frost and others on Larry King last week. Apparently there will be out-takes from the Frost interview with Nixon. Today's the 30th (I think) anniversary of the June 17th Watergate break-in. I think Deep-Throat is Henry Kissinger. http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=23783000 Watergate on Discovery dsc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=23783000

Subject: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:49:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was wondering about SHP (you remember him, doncha?) and the many debates I had with him about Maharaji. Of all the premies that have posted here, I think SHP was the most troubled by the inconsistencies of what he experienced with K and the allegations of Maharaji's private behaviour. SHP is one of those guys who really believed, or believes, that with Knowledge you get to see God. I was wondering about this. I, myself, don't find myself in a predicament over learning about Maharaji's less than exemplary lifestyle because I never had any great breakthroughs practicing K. I certainly neve saw God. To me, there's nothing divine about M. I've never experienced anything that would lead me to conclude there is. But what about people who have had profound spiritual experiences with K? That's got to be a mindblower. If you feel that you've established a consciousness of God as a result of practicing K, how do you deal with the allegations found on this website? How could someone who you believe showed you God possibly be guilty of what he's been accused of? SHP went to extreme rationalizations to explain this conflict, digging into scriptures for examples of other holy men chosen by God to spread his message but not being of the most exemplary character themselves. Personally, I don't think he ever really convinced himself of his arguments, though he did give it his best shot. So, what about the rest of you? If you've had a really profound experience with K where you've felt, just as promised, that you've beheld the glory of God, how do you reconcile the fact that Maharaji's the guy who gave you the tools to have such an experience?

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Bolly To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:03:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a devoutee I had plenty of blow yer mind moments. Out of curiousity I adopted the mindset the other day prior to cleaning the bathroom. You can switch into that mindset and have that light as air sensation, or any other at will. Just believe only believe. On an earlier thread Livia reffered to the various ways people responded to satsang depending on how prepped up they were for the experience. She made some very good points there. As I say just believe it works but do you want it to? I personally lke lfe with all the flavours. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 05:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My view is this: some people are more prone than others to having 'other-worldly' experiences when they practise the techniques of Knowledge. Some people I know have had their minds completely blown when they sit to meditate. Others have experienced very little or nothing at all. I have no idea of the reasons for this. I was shown the techniques before receiving K, during a period when I was investigating and questioning it. Driven by intense curiousity, I sat and practised them (all at once - didn't know any different) and had my mind completely blown. I felt as if I was being propelled into some other world - very 'cosmic' and wonderful. I only did this once. A few months later I received K properly and had much less of an experience. Stuck with it and often had very beautiful experiences but only sometimes anything as powerful as that first time when I was taken completely by surprise and when I didn't yet believe in Maharaji. As for experiences around him, obviously experiences of this kind can be induced by intense belief or longing. Maharaji himself apparently said darshan worked because we wanted it to. The ex Rajneesh devotee Sumray said above that they always felt that their experience reigned supreme over ours! My experience with the techniques before receiving Knowledge says something of the power of going inside for some, with or without Maharaji. If I had had that experience in the Knowledge session I would have been utterly convinced of Maharaji's divinity there and then. As it happened I became convinced more slowly, over the subsequent few months. What does this tell you? It certainly tells me something, with the benefit of years of hindsight. Do you not see that it's far too simplistic to say that because M 'taught' you the techniques of Knowledge and you have had experiences in meditation and around him, that that makes him necessarily special in some way? The bare facts are that one of Maharaji's devotees showed you the techniques. You then presumably had wonderful experiences - but so did I, before being 'properly' initiated. You have had beautiful experiences around Maharaji - so did I - after hearing endless descriptions of who he might be! I haven't heard of many 'disbelievers' who on finding themselves in Maharaji's presence have felt very much, if anything. I took lots of people to see him when a practising premie and a number of them came away saying they felt nothing, including my parents and a number of close friends. For some reason the word 'auto-suggestion' springs to mind... Don't be so quick to assume anything - anything at all. Livia

Subject: Bliss is good for cleaning toilets From: PatC To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:29:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another good analysis, Livia. I liked what Bolly said: ''Out of curiousity I adopted the mindset the other day prior to cleaning the bathroom. You can switch into that mindset and have that light as air sensation, or any other at will. Just believe only believe.'' Once you get out of the prison of concepts that Rev Rawat trapped us in, you see that you can have any experience you want, any state of mind you wish. You want bliss? Have it? You want a clear mind? Have it. You want misery? Have it. Well, I don't indulge in the misery stuff anymore but bliss is good for cleaning toilets.

Subject: Genesis was dyselexic From: AJW To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:41:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry, Genesis couldn't spell very well. The Universe was really created in 7 days by a giant Dog, not God. This has lead to all sorts of serious misunderstandings over the centuries. Than the muhan

Subject: Aha! So that's why there's so many trees (nt) From: cq To: AJW Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:46:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aha! So that's why there's so many trees.

Subject: They should have been streets Chris (nt) From: AJW To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 06:59:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: tn

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 01:07:50 (PDT) Email Address: jdiener@gilanet.com Message: I want to take a crack at a challenge from some of you to reconcile Maharaji’s “immoral” conduct with his being a Master and so forth. With respect to his having sex with women other than his wife, I say this: I believe that sex in a world of fully evolved and enlightened people would be understood very differently than it is in our society. I think that monogamy is a necessary form of relationship for most of us who are learning about opening up, intimacy, trusting and loving someone else. But I also believe that if I and others around me had learned the lessons and evolved on those issues, it would open up the possibility of having sex with more than just one intimate partner. Whether this is where Maharaji is at with it I don’t know, but I suspect at least he is way farther in that direction than you or I. Secondly, and this relates all across the board on the “bad conduct” complaint, it is very comforting to think of a Master or Maharaji in particular as a “perfect person” who personifies everything wholesome and good. However, my understanding of the evolutionary state of mankind and perhaps the universe is that it is in a state of healing deep spiritual splits and wounds which occurred in the early stages of Creation. In fact, that God and the Divine Mother if you will, were deeply confused and fucked up when they first became aware of themselves, met and tried to establish a relationship, before they even began creating fragmented spirits such as you and I. (There is a remarkable set of books which explains all this if anyone is interested, ask me.) That these imbalances are beginning to heal in us, but noone on Earth is free of them or perfectly healed as of yet. Thus, even someone with what I consider to be the prowess of Maharaji as far as experiencing states of joy and conveying that to others in a master-student relationship has imbalances and problems. I also think that doing what Maharaji does is an almost superhuman feat in the face of all the opposition within people and vibrationally on the planet the constant travelling and having to deal with so many people. I think it is almost unnatural and therefore if he needs some alcohol to be able to handle this task, I say so be it. It is clear to me from my experience of him that his alcohol usage has not prevented him from awakening deep heartfelt experiences in people or feeling joy himself. As far as smoking dope, I see nothing problematic with that at all. As to Maharaji being mean or uncaring to his staff or premies, first of all my personal encounters with Maharaji, limited and dated though they were revealed none of that. But, perhaps more importantly, Maharaji is compelled to rely on and interact closely with many other people to be able to do what he does. That’s just what his job requires. Some or a lot of these people may well be obnoxious and idiotic. Receiving Knowledge and particularly getting into high levels of the organization does not imply that one is a nice person or that one is free from idiocy. So if Maharaji call them idiots behind their backs, that is all right with me. I do the same thing too. I don’t confront people who are being idiots to their face, except in some circumstances, because confronting people like that often emeshes you deeper with them in the very idiocy you were not liking in the first place. Nevertheless, I will vent my frustration with people when I have the chance to with someone I trust. I don’t know enough about the JagDeo thing to say much. However, I do want to say this: I do not see Maharaji as a leader or a CEO of a group. That is a very secondary role he may find himself in. What he does is, not to belabor the point but, is to catalyze the Knowledge experience and wake people up to a higher vibration and to joy. As noted above, on the scale he does this, this is such an impossibly difficult task, that I give him some leeway in not also manning the helm of every problem that comes up in his organization. But again, even if this genuinely reveals an instance of irresponsibility on his part, that does not mean he is not the gifted and powerful teacher, which in my experience, he clearly is. Rather it means he is not perfect. Maharaji never claimed to be perfect. He said that Perfect Master meant that he could teach perfection and that is an experience which he did teach me. It is not a state of perfect behavior or conduct. I think our need for him to be a perfect role model is our own problem or lack of understanding. But bottom line is that if you do not have a deep sense of appreciation for Maharaji and what he does, if you cannot or do not FEEL what he is about, then of course, this is going to look like a damning confirmation of your perspective. And there is nothing that can be further said from my perspective that would have any meaning to you, so ‘nuff said’. JON jon diener

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:57:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's an interesting theory, Jon - the more evolved you are the more likely it is you'll cheat on your wife. 'But honey, I can't help it if I'm the pinnacle of evolution! Stop being so neanderthal!' Uh, huh. I'm sure that will go over big with the women of the world. But here's my philosopy: Higamus, hogamus, women are monogomus Hogamus, higamus, men are polygamous Whatever. Let's move onto the theory of how our 'divine mother' and Dad created the world. The fact that you believe in this theory only shows me how gullible you are. So I have to see you in that light when you talk about your experiences with M&K. I don't see a sharp, discriminating mind at work here. Sorry. I also think that doing what Maharaji does is an almost superhuman feat in the face of all the opposition within people and vibrationally on the planet the constant travelling and having to deal with so many people. A very, very, very, very minute percentage of the world's population turn onto Maharaji, Jon. A little perspective, please. As far as smoking dope, I see nothing problematic with that at all. What if you preached against it, and then smoked it behind peoples' backs, as Maharaji has done. Not long ago a satsang where Maharaji was denouncing smoking pot was posted on this forum. Nobody knew at the time, except his inner circle, that he was getting stoned regularly. Liked to blare Peter Frampton while he was at it, so I hear. Receiving Knowledge and particularly getting into high levels of the organization does not imply that one is a nice person or that one is free from idiocy. I don't think too many ex-premies would disagree with this, Jon. It still doesn't mean Maharaji wasn't a prick. But because you've placed Maharaji on such a pedestal, of course you're going to see him as being in the right and the PAMs (People Around Maharaji) as being idiots. That's just a result of your idol worship as far as I'm concerned, your love for the cult leader. I don’t know enough about the JagDeo thing to say much. However, I do want to say this: I do not see Maharaji as a leader or a CEO of a group. Well, whether you see him as that or not, that's what, effectively, he was, Jon. He dispatched his mahatmas. When he said 'jump', they asked 'how high'? They were at his beck and call and they served wherever he commanded them to. You extrapolate from that if Maharaji knew about the accusations concerning Jagdeo. Maharaji never claimed to be perfect. Bullshit. I distinctly remember him encouraging us to be perfect, even as the master 'is perfect, really, really perfect'. Maybe you never heard that, but I did. And it stuck. It's just one of those things I'll never forget hearing him say. Jon, maybe you have felt something perfect, and if you have you're obviously right, a person doesn't have to be perfect, himself, to be a catalyst for that experience, as I believe Maharaji has been for you. But you seem to be denying the role you've played in this experience. You compare Maharaji to the sun, and the heat of it. I'm not so sure this is true. Everybody feels the heat of the sun. Not everybody feels joy and happiness in the presense of Maharaji. Why do you suppose that is if that joy and happiness radiating from him is an objective force, as is the heat of the sun.

Subject: Oh Boy ! From: Brian Smith To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 08:02:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, You are in a cult, a cult that pretends like it is not a cult. I hear loud and clear your apologist views neatly wrapped around the story that you bought to fit the circumstances you have chosen to accept. Your whole post is an arguement in favor of the limitations and rationalizations that you are so deeply invested in to keep the big myth alive. Why don't you just come right out and say it Jon, you really do think that Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe. A supernatural divine incarnation far above us lowly fragmented humpty dumpty spiritual cretins that only he can put back together again. Go ahead admit it, bottom line you think he is the lord don't you? or do you dare say what you really believe deep down inside? At least if you came clean I could respect your authenticity for your commited stand in the matter. Instead you dance. The problem is you can't be completely open and honest about your true feelings because the core of the issue is so inauthentic and corrupted by secrets and lies you cannot even stand up to declare and announce the good news that the savior of mankind is vibrating amongst us. Vibrating a little stoned and tipsy at times to relieve the stress of saving all of us lost souls but nonetheless the purveyor of joy and awakening for it. Why hold back on a message as important to the world as this Jon? Shout it loud and proud the lord is on this planet. Or is it as obvious to you as it is to me how ridiculous it all sounds and actually is? Either shit or get off the pot Jon

Subject: Re: Oh Boy ! From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:34:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well said as always, Brian. I'm just catching up on this on topic thread and really enjoyed your input. Really good to see you here and very happy to read your health report is looking up. You are in my thoughts often. I'm still up for that project you asked about, too.

Subject: Oh Boy From: Brian Smith To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 13:51:38 (PDT) Email Address: bgsmith@teleport.com Message: Hi Richard, I will have to get up there to see you some time, or you can come here we are not that far from each other. Thanks for you words of encouragement and kindness throughout, email me for detailed update

Subject: Is it harder for smart guys like Jon? From: Jim To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:37:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It isn't just because Jon's a fellow lawyer (and 'SC alum!) but I know that Jon's a smart guy. And nice, sincere, thoughtful. But look at the confusing monkey he's got on his back! Poor guy. Jon, Brian is SO right. You will feel a million times lighter when you finally connect the dots. Guranteed. By the way, if you want to talk: jimheller@shaw.ca Where are you practising these days, anyway?

Subject: lawyer question real interesting From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 05:11:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim's asking Jon about his law practice triggered a real significant drift of question, for me... Think about this. 'those who love sausages, or the Law, should never witness either one being made' Laws are hashed out and arrived at, and changed over time. They're pretty much arbitrary. They aren't universal, all across the board, with all cultures, societies, governments or groups. theft in a muslim country dictates that your hand be cut off. theft in america results in mere jail time, and maybe a fine. heresy in the middle ages could get you torn on the rack, burned at the stake, excommunicated from the empire. today, no one cares at all. really. look at the pedophile priests.nothing is bad enough to get your religion to kick you out or take your life anymore. so let's think about law, and lawyering. it seems that the law is whatever people say it is. and they can change their minds and change the laws [the rules] anytime. and lawyering doesn't concern itself with the rightness of the law, only with whatever it says for the time being. a lawyer can play prosecutor as well as defender. it doesnt much matter. Law is looked at as a game of winning and losing. It's not all that concerned with absolutes. a good lawyer can argue either side of a question. thats pretty damned inconstant. a passionate lawyer can enter into the spirit of their case with zeal and True Belief. environmental lawyers certainly do. Or one can be cynical and cut and dried and do what pays the bills and not care what the issue is, as long as one gets paid. The case of the EPA vs shell oil vs the superfund is such a case. shell decided it would cost them less to filibuster and stall in court for years and years, than to ultimately own up to the staggering cost of cleaning the rocky mountain arsenal land. utterly unconcerned with doing what was right, they decided to go with whatever was cheapest. their lawyers didnt say a peep about representing them. this raises some hard questions about the veracity of the mind of someone like Jon. he has made it his life work to be able to accept ANY system of arbitrary rules, anywhere, and adopt a mask of persuading for them. that's what he earns his money for doing. the particular list of rules is unimportant. whatever it says today is what he'll get up there and argue for. could be to kill a man in the electric chair. could be to save him from it. could be to save the environment. could be to avoid cleaning it at all costs. could be to cut off a thief's hand. could be not to. whatever the actual rule is, that's what he picks up and uses. it doesnt trouble him that was was Ok yesterday is a crime today, and might not be, wherever he is, tomorrow. what is legal today, here, now, might be illegal over there, when you're there tomorrow. he doesnt care. to him, there is whatever the rules say he's being asked to argue for this client, in this case, in front of him. and this means that being asked to be a premie, having walked into the myth of all the rules and temporary beliefs and causes and explanations that arbitrarily reign in the group of maharajiism, regardless of how absurd or unbalanced or unfair, no matter how fantastical or illogical or stretched they are, and with no mind to the reality that what was absolute truth in the 70's, peculiarly was no longer so in the 80's, and transmogrified even more blatantly in the 90's--none of this stops him in the least, and makes him ask if there isnt something wrong with all this. it seems to me a mental life of convenience. it seems to me morally corrupt and lazy, to make oneself available, to be such a thing, so facilely, and for hire, no less! my father once confided to me, with pure disgust, that 'all doctors are whores: you pay em enough, they'll do whatever you want em to.' and it would seem to be true of these other aspects of humanity, that one would think would have some sense of right and wrong, of what's real and what is not. but it turns out, not so. we use the Law to take from people their freedom, their money, and their very lives. we use it to dictate to them what they can do and what they can't, and where and when and with whom--and then we turn around and change it. and ignorance of the law is no excuse. ! this said, and in this light-- jon's long, wordy presentation for maharaji and what he believes about him, are nothing more than what attorneys do. it isnt any more binding, personal, real or consistent than any lawyer at their craft. the rules are founded on quicksand, the arguments defending them are wind, both presenters are schooled in representing either side of society's feelings about it-- so how can what he claims, be taken in any form at all?? there is no foundation, nothing permanent to any of it, when seen this way. it makes one look foolish in the extreme, and not to be trusted, in the final assessment. is right and wrong a game? is truth for sale to the highest bidder? are the rules not really the rules? how can Jon face himself, knowing all this is so? He lives looking at it every day! How can he stand it? Wouldnt you think that practicing the Law, he would be among the first to realize that the law is levelled for everybody, or it's pointless? Lady Justice is blindfolded. Her sword cuts clean and cuts everyone alike with the same blade. Except that it doesn't. You would think he would see the inconsistancy, be troubled by the obvious inequalities, the now-you-see-it, now-you-don't whims of the history of the laws. Maybe that blindfold is more treacherous than we first thought. Maybe it isn't meant to symbolize equal justice at all. Maybe it portrays the willfull blindness one has to swallow, in order to stay in, play the game and survive. Because to take it off, Seeing too clearly, means one has to get up, walk out, and leave.

Subject: Righto janet, lawyers deal with consensus reality [nt] From: Dep To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:56:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'Reality' is a word best left for others, Dog [nt] From: Jim To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 10:18:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What a load of nonsense! From: Jim To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 15:20:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, Janet, you're wrong. The law is not at all that arbitrary and lawyers, at least as far as I can see, are not less ethical for any reason than other people. Nice try, though.

Subject: appreciate your kindness there JH From: janet To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 02:31:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i expected you to rip me. thanks for not. actually, I have powerful admiration for the lawyers who are ethical, dedicated, beleive in their clients and only work for causes theyfeel are just. i get twisted inside out, having to witness the work of the opposition, when the truth is known and they refuse to budge from picking a victim and hanging them for the sake of making a case and having someone to accuse of being guilty. or alternately, for taking the money and working for the side who is clearly in the wrong, but has the funds to obfuscate and dodge consequences for a long time. i guess my late night angst came out. actually, my entertainment habits these days run to the tensest, most dramatic portrayals of law and medicine that i can find. written by real lawyers and real doctors. so what does that tell you about me? and those of you who can stay in the craft and not walk out--you must have something i don't. for that, i have to salute you. you succeed where i could not. and yes, i know--our law process isnt perfect-whether in making law, enforcing it, adjudicating it, interpreting it or using it--but it's the best of what we can do, in the face of life and human behavior. it's better than anarchy. ani do find it profoundly satisfying to read the various opinions and judgements, and how they were reasoned . it fills a deep need in my mind for meticulously arriving at what is right. so I'm not as anathema as i probably sounded, up there. i just find the flaws and the failings too disheartening and frustrating.

Subject: OT it's the last day of creation.... From: The Falcon To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:00:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and all the creatures were gathering to try and figure out what they were, a rabbit was talking to a snake. The rabbit said'What do I look like?' to which the snake replied, 'Well, you're covered in grey fur, you have a white bib, buck teeth and big floppy ears', 'Great I'm a bunny rabbit' said the rabbit to which the snake replied, 'What do I look like?'. The rabbit looked at the snake and said, ' Well, you have an oily skin, speak with a forked tongue and have no ears at all', 'Fuck', said the snake, 'I'm a lawyer' Sorry Jim, Jon, Marianne but irresistible!

Subject: Re: OT it's the last day of creation.... From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:12:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey thats a good one. made me laugh out loud.

Subject: Re: lawyer question real interesting From: Vicki To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 06:59:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, Hi, how are you? Things going better for you and your son? I was wondering if you ever thought about going back to school?

Subject: Hitting the nail on the head From: The Falcon To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:51:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked Jon some key questions below and as yet have not had a response, however, another good premie friend of mine who is a major lifer/church lady was asked recently 'Do you think Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe?' He answered, ' I don't think, I know!' Nothing new there then.

Subject: LOL ! Brian! From: gerry To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:01:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I see you were up late last night. The idiot calling you at 8:30 in the morning was me. Sorry! I loved this part: ...you cannot even stand up to declare and announce the good news that the savior of mankind is vibrating amongst us. Vibrating a little stoned and tipsy at times to relieve the stress of saving all of us lost souls but nonetheless the purveyor of joy and awakening for it. Our Wobbly Lord! I hope Jon catches on...

Subject: Hey Gerry From: Brian Smith To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 18:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Its good to hear from you, no matter what the time. I am obviously feeling better and back in the trenches once again. Thanks for your help with the generator it is working like a charm. I will call Asap

Subject: JON-a coupla questions for you... From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 07:38:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1)You talk of a seeming 'sexual utopia' that may be possible between more evolved or enlightened people, and also imply that maharaji is more evolved than us in these matters... Respectfully, I beg to differ.... When you read about Michael Dettmers accounts of essentially 'pimping' for maharaji,does that seem to indicate the 'utopian relationship' you are talking about? Especially when he cheats on his wife and children to do so...disregards his marriage vows (that he loved to show us on video).. And when he dumps the women and won't speak to them after the fling? Most of these women were in the ashram, where they had not engaged in sexual relationships for years, and were forbidden to do so, for life, by him! He then screws them, dumps them, and leaves aides like MD to deal with the mess? Is that 'enlightened behavior'? How about the pain and suffering he has caused those women, the premies who have to deal with the mess, his wife, and his children, who now know that the entire world can read about their hypocritical father and bizarre family? 2)Concerning alcohol or drugs, you seem to be OK with it, if that's what he needs to do his job... a-doesn't this seem hypocritical, as he is preaching to the premies on the one hand to stay away from such substances, and telling that they don't need them and they are harmful to them (if you doubt this, check out the Atlantic City tapes) while he is not only doing them, but becoming addictded to them as well? b-And why would he ever need drugs/alcohol anyway, if knowledge is so great? Wasn't his whole message that you only needed Knowledge to get high on life? That knowledge was the answer, and the only true high worth going after? And shouldn't he as teacher, be setting the example, to show that it can in fact be done? 3)Can you talk about the fact that he is such a hypocrite who refuses to answer any of these very real questions from his most loyal followers? Does he owe them an apology or explanation? 4)Do you see how he is hurting his followers lives right now, as he encourages them to troll for aspirants, never tells the followers about his 'dark side', and then lets them take the potential hurt, embarrassment, pain and possible social and financial losses as these potential aspirants discover these disturbing things and confront premies and other related people with them? Shouldn't he have the class and guts to 'level' with his followers and tell them what kind of mess he is pulling them into, and let them decide for themselves if they want to get into this debacle or not? What kind of man so shamelessly lies, deceives and hurts people, especially his followers who have literally given him his fortune? Does ANY of this ring true for you? Are you willing to acknowledge ANY of this? If so, WHAT? If not, are you willing to look inside yourself and try to understand why you cannot confront a known liar? The silence from the premies only makes it worse for him, and them....wait and see....

Subject: rationalising behaviour From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 06:14:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, you have just done what I have noticed homeopaths sometimes do. A homeopath prescribes a remedy. The person gets better. The homeopath puts this down to the remedy working. A homeopath prescribes a remedy. The person does not get better. The homeopath puts this down to extreme imbalances in the person. This way homeopathy remains unchallenged and the patient's own weaknesses are seen as the reasons for the failure of homeopathy to cure. In the same way, suppose Maharaji had no apparent personal flaws. He remained faithful to Marolyn. He didn't need to drink alcohol or smoke dope. He treated his devotees with obvious love and kindness both in and out of their presence. He appeared to manifest qualities of wisdom and enlightenment. Premies such as yourself would (I presume) see this as simple evidence that Knowledge worked. The master of Knowledge lives an exemplary life - I really couldn't see any premie having a big problem with that. The reality, though, is different. Maharaji doesn't lead an exemplary life. He is unfaithful to his wife, treats his lovers with something less than respect, drinks rather a lot, smokes dope and doesn't always treat the people who love him with love and respect. Premies such as yourself have no problem with any of this either. So: homeopathy - cure - fine. homeopathy - no cure - fine. Maharaji - (hypothetical) exemplary life - fine. Maharaji - non-exemplary life - fine. In the case of the believer in homeopathy the assumption is that homeopathy works. All the facts around this, even when homeopathy fails to work, are interpreted in such a way as to protect the central hypothesis - that homeopathy works. In the case of the believing premie, the assumption is that Maharaji is special in some way and has the power to enable the experience of Knowledge in his premies. All the facts around this, even when Maharaji behaves in a manner that demonstrates that he falls short on personal integrity, are interpreted in such a way that protects the central hypothesis - that Maharaji is special etc. The homeopath believes in homeopathy no matter what. The premie believes in Maharaji no matter what. The homeopath ends up having to distort and spin in order to protect his belief. The premie ends up having to distort and spin in order to protect his belief. In the end, integrity, honesty and simple common sense become the casualties and neither the homeopath or the premie can see it. One can only wonder just how much homeopathy can fail, or how 'undivine' Maharaji can become before they start losing their core followers. All this says one hell of a lot about people's need to believe, and the lengths they will go to in order to protect and rationalise their belief. Livia

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:54:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jon, I too had many of these contact highs around Maharaji but I would like you to consider this set and setting;- Post-'60s we were very open, enthusiastic, dedicated to both World Peace and Enlightenment(still am)and the'doors of perception'had been well and truly blasted off their hinges, let's just call it susceptibilty. Exactly the same as dating - 'wow she's gorgeous!' you say but your friend says 'no she's not' 'Maharaji is the one' says you but your friend says 'No it's Rajneesh whose the one'(It is also amazing that we can fall in love/lust with someone who turns into a monster-perception eh?) Vivekananda said that charisma can be produced and I tend to agree, having met many performers who have on and off stage personas, funny most of them took stimulants too, it must go with the territory of performance(-see Maharaji. The most charismatic person I have ever seen was that poor brood-mare for the UK royal family- Princess Diana, she glowed in the dark, why?- because she was greatly loved by millions, if not by her husband and his frightful family, particularly The Queen Mother (they just got the smell of piss out of Buckingham Palace- took weeks) C.G.Jung called this phenomena - projection. In my experience the 'power', 'grace', (remember that as it seems to have been forgotten about-no more guru kripa as it's bad for business)'baraka' , call it what you will, works perfectly adequately without a belief system about Maharaji or any other flavour of guru. My goal was always for enlightenment and peace and harmony for mankind and although it sounds kind of quaint and naive in the 21st century I will persist in both endeavours with the help of Life- the only teacher. I am sure none of us ever wanted a belief system or another religion but even in the face of your declarations to the contrary that it was you've got. I am well out of it and still having 'that experience'. Some questions to conclude;- Do you think that Maharaji is the source or has anything to do without your personal experience? Do you believe in Maharaji's grace? Are you appalled by his renowned profligacy and non-existent contribution to society (with the one exception being his small donation to the earthquake victims of Gurjarat)? Do you still kiss his feet, is so why? all the best

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 20:55:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In answer to your questions Falcon, I don't think I would have had the experiences I had through my relationship with Maharaji if I hadn't met him. I think he is a catalyst for those experiences. I would not say he is the 'source' of those experiences. I believe that what Maharaji does in this regard is somewhat magical and not explainable in normal logical terms. You could call that Maharaji's 'grace'. If you mean some Godlike power to make things happen (other than what I have mentioned) on the physical plane which he has no apparent control over, then I do not believe in that. However, I will say that he has at least one one such unusual power which is connected with the Holi celebration. Since an explanation this would be probably enemtha (right word?) to many ex-premies, I will spare the details. Im sorry I dont know what proifligacy means and my dictionary is not in the cabin/office Im sitting in. I take it has something to do with his sexual activity. No I am not appalled. I don't condone it either and it is cause for some concern depending on whether Dettmers take on it is all right on. I think maharaji makes a rather large contribution to society. That he does not give money to charity is not something that appalls me. Let me say that the concerns raised by many of you exes are not something I just poo poo. I think they are legitimate questions that you all raise. I think it is good to understand Maharaji is not a perfect actor and may have flaws. However, my ultimate conclusion about him is, as I have written about, different than yours. As far as kissing maharaji's feet, I have not had formal darshan for many years. In my half a dozen or so darshan experiences in the past, I believe I kissed his feet only once. I don't regret having done so in the slightest. It is a bit of an intimate thing to be discussing with an unknown audience on the Internet and particularly with exes. I will say that my kissing Maharaji's feet was not, in my mind or my experience or in Maharaji's mind because we had some good eye contact afterward, a sign of the much feared by exes, subservience to Maharaji. It had nothing at all to do with that. IN many ways,in that particular darshan experience I felt very much in a common rapport with Maharaji. His expression and communication with me had nothing to do with him being bigger, more or higher than me. It had alot to do with the two of us sharing something we both felt was very special. (If any of you want to attack me on this I will be disappointed. It will indicate that I cannot be vulnerable and straightforward on this site.)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 09:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon D: First of all, my hat's off to you as a premie who is unafraid to come into the 'wolves den', so to speak, and dialog with some exes...it shows courage and a willingness to be open minded, even if it does disobey agya and premie beliefs... I was just wondering if you would consider responding to my above post 'a coupla questions'... Also, What concerns me is the 'belief system' that premies buy into concerning maharaji as some sort of 'perfect master', which is never defined, but always includes the assumption that maharaji cannot and should not be questioned.... Coupled with that admonition from a supposed 'divine' source (m), is the belief that m has consistently repeated that there is no ultimate moal code that need be talked about or followed, seemingly because every culture and religion has wildly different versions of such a code that could never be reconciled.... However, when you combine those 2 beliefs (don't question the master, and there is no moral code for him to follow), it provides a potent force to easily manipulate followers with.... Do you agree with this? Do you see how it harms many people, and effects everyone involved, including m himself and you? I'd be curious to hear your response, esp. since you are an attorney and have presumably been trained to think and understand all sides of the story... Thanks... PS: You've got some WILD concepts going on about God.....are you seriously believing in these, or do you just 'play' with them as a sort of hobby? Reason I ask is that although you must be an intelligent and objective person to be a practicing lawyer,you seem to be able to chuck all of that out when it comes to the spiritual realm....it also seems that you do that with the 'maharaji belief system', although I doubt that you think at this point that you even have a 'MBS'....comments, rebuttals?...just curious, and thanks for being here...best of lck...

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: la-ex Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 20:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im gonna express a little bit of anger here towrd the exes here. And let me say I find some of you quite interesting and intelligent and appreicate your willingess to give me space to expresss here. However.. The concept of agya is so outdated that I am suprised you are so hung up on it. Noone I know who is a premie has said anything about agya since the early seventies. And even then I knew noone who was laboring under agya, or if they were they didn't mention it. I certainly never received agya or wanted to ask maharaji for it. A freind of mine was appointed as GEneral Secretary of an ashram once by Maharaji, but I didn't see that as 'agya' Many of you are so hung up on rules and religion and afraid of Maharaji as some sort of authority figure, it is hard for me to understand. (I can hear the religion drums beating in some of your heads already, 'it was guruworship and he demanded it of us and I was victimized.' I say bullshit. I always felt like I was doing just what i wanted to be doing when I lived in the ashram and when I no longer wanted to be there, I left. In the years shortly after I sometimes felt like some of the ashram life was a denial of parts of me. (It was also a very good expereoince in a lot fo ways.)I never felt like Maharaji caused the denial part at all.I chose it. I never thought Maharaji would not like me leaving the ashram. I dont think he cared one way or the other. I think he was glad if I was having a positive expereience of KNowledge, in the ashram ir anywhere else in the world and thats about the extent of it. The truth is there are no rules in life or in the 'world of KNowledge'. (Of course, there are consequences to unloving actions and there are different choices which can be considered more or less loving and/or more or less unloving.) I feel like many of you exes gave Maharaji way too much power and gave up way too much responsibility in feeling and determining what was right for you and what wasn't. Maharaji did not make you do that. You did it. I was listening to him and to the mahatmas and all the satsang and I did not think Maharaji had assumed responsibility for my life at all. And thats not because I am a terribly responsible or enlightened person either. I'm not. I just never fell into that particular muisunderstanding or confusion. 'Maharaji made me do it.' Bullshit I say. 'But he said...' Bullshit. Take responsibility for what you did or didnt do and stop blaming the convenient 'authority figure'. 'But he said we should listen to our Guru Maharaji... and surrender our lives....' So why did you think you should do that ? Anyway, surrender for anyone who is really thiking about it is clearly not, 'Ill do just what you say to do.' it is a letting go to something and to me, clearly an inner experience of opening up and dropping barriers. I mean JOhn Denver wrote a song about surrender didnt he. HE wasnt talking about following anyones agya. all enough of this rant. Ill shut up and let you religous folks get all over me with your religous ideas about Maharaji. Thats kind of paradoxical. You guys are the exes but you are obsessed with religous ideas,while I am a premie and am not.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 00:20:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is the usual premie pattern here, enter politely and sincerely and swiftly blow their tops when questioned. Don't kid yourself, agya is alive and well, ask any PAM (the name may have changed but the principle has not). In fact it is agya not to read this site, you rebel, you! I was never a 'religious' premie either but don't tell me that there wasn't enormous pressure on any premie who was not a parent to move in the ashram because I witnessed this time and time again in UK, saw marriages dissolved and people shipped all over the country at the drop of a hat. I think you have a very selective memory which has shrunk to fit the revisionist bullshit. In conclusion let me say that we are not that far apart in outlook, merely that I don't look through guru-coloured glasses anymore and I have the courage to say exactly what I have seen without the need to revise history. Maharaji's 'mission'has failed although it will drag on until his death, no doubt, with ever-dwindling numbers of ageing has-beens who remember 'the good old days' when both questions and satasng were allowed. I am not that bothered about him but I do care about sincere souls still wrapped up in his little web and so converse frequently with premie friends who are leaving in droves. All the best The Falcon (thrown out the bathwater but kept the baby)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: jon diener To: The Falcon Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:11:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey it wasnt that swift. I dialoogued for quite a while before blowing mine. Anyway, I don't deny that there was quite a bit of dysfunction going on in the old days. its just that I don't see Maharaji as responsible for it. I know my ideas of detachment and emotional denial for example were ones I chose to take on after reading the Gita and simply because they appealed to me as good ways to cope with life at the time. That I may have considered this part of KNowledge and Maharaji was my doing not his. But, I think we may not that far apart either. Best to you too.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 20, 2002 at 16:53:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jon, even if you don't post, pleasae keeep reading this forum from tome to time as I ahve access to an amazing archive which will blow maharaji's revisionist bull shit straight out of the water. My feelings for Maharaji- compassion and sorrow. Both of us are a lot happier than him.

Subject: Jon, it's clear you have no answer... From: la-ex To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 21:50:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't it? I ask you questions, and you answer none of them. As for agya, when maharaji says 'Never doubt the master. Never doubt the purity of the master'.....isn't he telling you not to doubt him? To blindly accept and not question? When he says 'don't ask me questions', and your silence, rather than an honest questioning, allows the deception that deceives so many to go on and on, don't you feel dishonest and sleazy? Don't you feel unethical for allowing such dishonesty to continue, when you know that so much is hidden from potential new people? Do you see how 'following the master' brings you into the same pile of sleaze that he is in? Are you afraid to question or confront maharaji? BTW, I'm not 'hung up' on any sort of premie religion, and was a regularly practicing premie from 1971-1999. However, you've got religious concepts coming out your ears, and they are quite obvious.... And we would all love to hear about your inside information on maharaji's divine holi power, if you'd care to share....

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:15:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: call me impatient but would you please respond to my thaks but post below?

Subject: To Jon re Maharaji and power From: Livia To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 04:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, Jon, we all kissed his feet, or most of us did, so no one here's going to have a problem with you admitting you did that. My beef with you is that you seem so sure that your experiences of Knowledge are somehow induced by 'his grace'. You also say he has at least 'one unusual power' connected with the holi celebration. And in other posts you imply he's not the Lord, never was. So how about being more specific? If he's not the Lord but as you suggest, has some special power, can you not bear to consider for one moment that that apparent power is a reflection of the power given to him by those who intensely believe in him? We all know about projection. And some of us know how it feels to be on the receiving end of projection. Most of us have had the experience of someone being madly in love with us. For that time we can do no wrong - they see us as almost perfect.. Unsurprisingly we are affected by their emotions, feelings and projections and feel transformed ourselves as a result. Sometimes we feel as if we are walking on air, such is the power of projection when it is directed at us. Imagine for a second the position of Maharaji. He has been projected on all his life, including by his own mother and brothers when he was little, and all his father's followers when Shri Hans died - thousands upon thousands of them. He then came to the West and was immediately thought to be God on earth by more thousands - Westerners this time. He was surrounded by premies who hung on his every word and spent their lives longing to be near him. Can you imagine this? Can you imagine how this would affect your development as a normal human being with normal desires for women and the things of this world? So as well as trying to fulfil his father's agya, he uses his power to bed women who wouldn't have looked at him twice if they hadn't thought he had divine stautus. And he acquires wealth that he probably wouldn't have come anywhere near if it hadn't been for the fact that the premies thought he was God. And you think that because he seems powerful and because odd things happen around him, that that power necessarily comes from him? Have you read anything of other gurus and the apparent powers they have? Sai Baba? Thousands were totally convinced that Sai Baba was an incarnation of God. (Millions still are, in fact.) They would go to their graves swearing that magical, mystical things happened around him. Now it seems he was a common child abuser and rapist all along and his magical manifestations total foolery. And some of his followers will attempt to rationalise the rape and abuse, such is their need to hang onto their beliefs about him, just as you are doing now with your attempts to rationalise Maharaji's alcohol abuse and exploitation of female devotees. Oh, and lies and denial of what went on in the past. Jon I'm afraid you're in so deep you're in danger of never seeing it, and throwing your life away on faith in a tin god. You needn't give up meditation - a lot of us here haven't. But get real - Maharaji isn't who you think he is, and sadly never was. He has no power other than what his devotees give him, and that is fading away fast. But you're probably just not ready to see it - yet. Livia

Subject: well said, Livia (nt) From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 08:03:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: thanks but.... From: The falcon To: jon diener Date Posted: Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 02:26:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you didn't really answer the questions. I am pleased that you have had the courage to come here in defiance of agya and want to reassure you that not everyone here is hostile to you, howver, I woiuld like to point out that we have been where you are now but you have not yet been where we are now and from this perspective life is vastly improved, the experience of ' whatever you want to call it' is undiminished, in fact enhanced without a cumbersome belief system of any kind (including scientific)and there is genuine humility (not disussed here-ever) because we know we are not special in the way that Maharaji told us, in fact humility , with the exception of subservience to 'the master', is not a premie trait. we have re-joined the human race. some points re; your response. * everything in Life ia catalyst if we are open. * it is not anathema to explain your experiences or interpretaion of them here (see above-we have been etc.).unusual powewr in Holi? try me!! * what is 'somewhat magical'? * profligacy = willy-nilly spendthrift, it ahs nothing to do with sex unless the money is spent on mistresses and whores. * pray tell of the 'rather large' contribution, and don't say peace because peaceful is not an epithet that can be applied to premies and I do know many! ( Mind you there are the fine examples recently of Deborah and Selene-fabulous creatures that they are, straight out of Shakespeare!!) * I thought you were a class of '72 premie like me and yet you say you only kissed his feet once-sorry I don't believe you although I am interested in learning what is in Maharaji'smind, how did you learn that one? Darshan is not intimate by the way, in fact it is very public. I think he is addicted to worship, great addiction to have but I am unsure of the outcome karmically. So would you do 'it' again, if so, why? kissing someone's feet is a subservient gesture and if you don' believe me I am going to book you a session with a dominatrix friend of mine who will teach you a lesson, you naughty boy. She already has lots of lawyers foe clients. (Down JimBoy!) keep communicating, all the best.

Subject: TYPO ALERT From: The Falcon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:53:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and seem to lack the premie hysteria (is that a new technique?do I need a Knowledge review?)of Deborah and Selene.

Subject: Re: Try again From: The Falcon To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 02:56:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: should read -with your personal experience. please reply as you seem very pleasant and lacking the usual premie hysteria see above TYPO ALERT for you know who.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: The Falcon To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:01:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the breakthrough comes when one knows that any experience has nothing to do with anything outside of one's Self (nothing to do with gurus)

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: PatC To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:54:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sandy seemed to disappear soon after seeing through Rawat. When I talk to Chuck and Andy about this stuff they don't comletely understand. Chuck got K-lite from a ''meditation teacher'' and soon afterwards we left premiedom. We watched the occassional video and went to see Rawat now and then and carried on meditating. Chuck never experienced god in M and K and humored me when I used to say that I did. He would put it down to my poetic soul. Andy got K because he saw that Chuck and I enjoyed it but he resented what he called my ''fireworks'' satsang. He never saw Rawat as anything but another preacher man and never could stand him. Both Chuck and Andy are pretty stubborn and just kept doing their thing inspite of the fact that I was a full-blow gopi. They simply tolerated their old hippie Hindu pal. I did see what I thought was god in Rawat and K. I was a darshan addict for the first ten years because of the hit that I got from Rawat. It was only when we finally went back into premiedom two years ago that I began to doubt his godshipness. Watching videos still made me feel great but seeing up close how he ran the cult gave me the creeps. I solved my dilemma about not liking him and still thinking that he was the master by deciding to turn against him EVEN IF he was. I never saw him as the big kahuna, the creator. My Hindu brain at that time did not think like that. I saw all of creation as god and guru as the one who revealed that all of creation (including him and me) is god and therefore he was greater than god. Those first few months of 'defying'' the holiest revealer of god were not easy but I knew that I had to do it as Rawat was so obviously an immoral man. Now I realize that it was all emotions and imagination but I really did see M and K as god for 27 years. Even when I first started reading the dirt on EPO it didn't bother me too much as I figured that Rawat was just a human being who happened to be the torchbearer of the most holy K tradition. What really galled me was that he would act real chummy and ordinary on stage and videos but then run his cult like a dictatorship. I figured that, if we were all god, then democracy was the way things should be run. It was the lack of democracy, openness and accountability which drove me out. Once the loyalty to him is broken then you are free to think about K any way you want. When I first exed I still thought of K as god but I no longer do. It is not easy for true believers to make the break and I hope I don't forget how scary it was and lose my sympathy for the agonies that newbies suffer.

Subject: A good Question From: Brian Smith To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:45:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, what about the rest of you? If you've had a really profound experience with K where you've felt, just as promised, that you've beheld the glory of God, how do you reconcile the fact that Maharaji's the guy who gave you the tools to have such an experience? --- This is a very good question, and I have to admit that there were moments where I did have some truly profound meditation experiences. Experiences at that time which I attributed to maharaji, then believing that he was the true incarnate of the lord of the universe. I don't care how the EV Pr people revise this message,(the lord of the universe spin) it was one that was completely perpetrated by the cult which M allowed by his deference to the concept. When asked point blank if he was the lord he would coyly respond ' why don't you ask who told you that why they are saying this about me. A slip and slide non answer, an artful dodger leaving the truth lurking behind the shadows of mind manipulation and the relative experience of some ancient dated meditation techniques. This is where the rubber meets the road and where my confusion, illusion began and my ultimate freedom of it all ended. The meditation techniques will provide the impetus for an experience of self potential, that I have discovered for myself and I have no problem with. It is when they are tied to the emotional enslavement of a master devotee relationship where everything is dependant on the teacher and nothing is credited to the student that the experience breaks down and limits one's potential for self discovery. When I exited, I began to realize more and more my own self discovery process, with no strings attached, no dependant issues on another human being, no emotional ties to a master teacher or false premise. As far as m being the guy to give me the tools, he did not, he says himself that he doesn't take anything out of his pocket. I was on my way with my own tools to fulfill my journey of self discovery long before he came along. He was but one step along the path, a long step that ultimately stiffled my growth as a person of honor and integrity. I compromised many years believing and pertetrating his myth. Now I am free and I am experiencing more than ever quite by myself the fruits of my own self discovery unpolluted by the Rawat Rot.

Subject: Re: A good Question From: Thorin To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:57:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A good question - and indeed a remarkable answer Brian - many thanks. Please write lots more and real soon ..... warmly, Thorin

Subject: Re: A good Question From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 03:31:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, thanks for the kudo's, and you definately will be hearing more from me in the near future as I recover my strength. I have been a regular and active participant here since my exit early 2001. I have been out of pocket for the past 4 months or so due to critical health issues compounded by serious side effects as a result of the treatment that I was undergoing but have recently discontinued. For me your question of crediting m with providing the tools for the experience provokes an inquiry into the validity of rawats integrity. A matter which I find to be of upmost importance when one allows oneself to be purported as the lord of the universe. My first reality check (or drip) came to me just 6 weeks after recieving knowledge. I was staying in New York getting ready to depart for India in 1972. I was handed a book published circa early 1900, this book graphically illustrated all of the alledged secret meditation techniques that m claimed ownership of. I was amazed because the book actually explained the techniques in much clearer detail than the mahatma I received k from or m ever did in or out of the knowledge session. As a matter of fact there were even a few more techniques covered than we were revealed via the rawat method. As I said the publication was a much more comprehensive and throughly depicted illustration of the meditation techniques we were revealed but without the devotional hooks. Now one would think as the alledged owner of the techniques M, would be the one with the clearer understanding, but the book explained things much better with no strings attached. This was my first drip that something was remiss, or that there was a fly in the ointment. I really should have listened to that still small voice inside that said something is wrong here, there is no mention of a perfect master requirement to experience these, no ownership or lineage to the rawat family. No need to lay down ones life devoted exclusively to a guru, teacher, master, or as it turns out a bhakti guru disciple worship relationship. Instead, I banished the fledgling questions from my mind, and like a good cult member never leaving room for doubt, I boarded the plane for India and simply let myself slip farther into the abyss of robotic devotion. The blind acceptance of the myth regarding m's linage and the comraderie of the cult was a good antidote to the voice of reason and logic that kept dripping away little by little over the years. Then one day I finally awoke to a waterfall of reality rushing through my being cleaning out the corruption of years of ecrusted cult corrosion. These drips are what I have now come to realize as the true 'little drops of mercy'. Had m been forthcoming and upfront with what he was doing which was just passing on a version of eastern philosopy accentuated by a few meditation techniques which may stimulate a response perceived as a spiritual experience, I would be fine with that to this day I think. But no... he rode in on the coat tails of this lord of the universe road show. A role that he has revised and revamped over the years as each incarnation wears thin or is peeled back by those of us who see through the flimsy veneer. This is where I take issue, the man has no integrity, he has no honor and he refuses to accept responsibility for his actions by setting the record straight. He slinks around reverting and rewritting his name revising his image to whatever the traffic will bear re-incorporating his organization. Then he acts as if he is coming clean by feigning responsibility for the previous incarnation and/or organizations activities claims or misdeeds. All the while winking and nodding to the dwindling flock to keep those cards and letters coming into you know who. This guy is so slimy even his own mother disowned him, and that incredible action alone should have been a major drip which I failed to question more vigorously. A mothers love is one of the strongest forces in anyones life and to lose that, particularly at such a young age begs serious questions as to the man's character. I have given up hope on the idea that rawat will ever find the decency to acknowledge his responsibility for the falsehoods and apologize to so many of us whom he lead down the path of his deception. Rawat is throughly corrupted, totaly sold out, completely engrossed in his own dysfuntional greedy grubbing quest for the almighty dollar. I do not expect M to ever change his method of operation, so I did what is best for me and what I alone have the power to do. I changed myself and got out even after buying in heavy for 29 years. Hopefully that may ignite a change where someone else who needs it might see it or hear it and be empowered to do the same.

Subject: Are we synchronized, Brian? From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:59:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You hit the nail right on the head. How are you? I hope you are doing as well as you sound - pretty feisty.

Subject: Yes ! From: Brian Smith To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:58:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am feeling better, thanks Pat. That is since they took me off the Chemo two weeks ago. In short it wasn't working, it was only making me more miserable and weaker, I will privately email you a progress report with a full prognosis. As for being syncronized, only in the commitment to break free and help others get out of the cult if they are willing. I am gradually regaining my strenghth and vitality, I am slowly detoxing that poison treatment out of my system. I look forward to being more present here on F7 as my energy returns. And no, for the record, I am not in any danger of checking out permanently in the near future. I am going to be fine as long as I do not overextend myself, watch my diet, exercise regularly and just basically take care of myself. You have been through a major health challenge yourself and overcame it and I intend to follow your example. Say hi to Chuck and Andy, I will be checking in later with you off the board

Subject: great to see you back, Brian From: Livia To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Brian, It's great to see you back here, and great that you're coming through all the treatment. You're sounding good and very much back on form. Wonderful. While I'm here I just want to say how much I appreciated the kind things you said to me here a few months back - you really helped me through a difficult patch with it all. Love to you and wishing you a most speedy recovery. Livia XX

Subject: Thanks Livia From: Brian Smith To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 21:10:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is good to be back and feeling better, I hope that I continue to improve healthwise. I have greatly appreciated your contributions here as well over the past few months. I checked in regularly but just did not not have the energy or stamina to write or even think clearly. The horrible treatment they had me on (Interfon/Ribivirin) turned me an mental basket case riding this incredible roller coaster of emotions. I am just starting to emerge from the shadows and feel human once again. Thanks for your kind thoughts too Love Brian

Subject: Absolutely fabulous From: PatC To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:22:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was worried about the chemo right from the start but did not want to dampen your hopes so I said nothing. Hope and determination are essential. It's what pulled me back after ''dying'' in surgery and near total organ failure from septic shock when everyone else thought I was going to die. Yes, please fill me in by email. Lots of love to you.

Subject: Good God! From: Gregg To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:29:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jerry. Speaking as an ex-premie, my short answer to this would be that Maharaji was NOT the guy who gave me the tools to have such an experience. My belief at the time that he WAS the architect of my spiritual experiences, combined with my overactive imagination and suggestiblity OR my mystical sensitivity (your choice) contributed to the visions and tremors and whatnot I experienced ocaasionally during my few years as a Lover of God/Guru. Even in the early days, though, as a premie, I heard some things about M that didn't jibe with even a very loosey-goosey formulation about how an Enlightened One would act. And believe me, to be as powerful as he said he was (and even a run-of-the-mill guru had to - at the very least - not be a pathological liar), an Enlightened One he must be, not just a 'meditation teacher.' For a smart guy, I sure was dumb about this, though. I used the same old rationalizations to keep my Mind at bay...the ways of the Lord are inscrutable to mere mortals such as myself, it's all a game, the truth lies beyond appearences, etc. etc. The simple truth that my Guru was a fraud (whether well-intentioned or not can be debated)was a thought to be squelched at all costs. After all, I had 'the Experience,' didn't I? That is the ultimate fallback justification, the one my single remaining premie friend gave to me when I gently doubted the Purity of the Master. 'Can you deny the power of the Word?' she said. Well...it's not quite so simple, premie ji. Truth is truth...you must eat it whole.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: AV To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 10:10:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SHP????? a name would be nice, then i'll tell my secrets

Subject: SHP = Sanford Pass [nt] From: Jim To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Come on, Jim From: Jerry To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 12:25:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like AV knows a Sanford Pass from an SHP. If he didn't know who SHP was to begin with after all the time he's spent posting here, what difference would it make if a name was suddenly attached to his initials? Who's 'AV' to talk about names, anyway? I wonder if he isn't just trying to be funny.

Subject: Re: Maharaji and the God experience From: Jerry To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 11:14:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't follow, AV. Is that your real name, BTW?

Subject: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 17:33:55 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi friends, Just got back to sunny California after 3 weeks in the soggy but lovely British Isles and popped in after my extended and continuing absence to say hello to everyone. At the end of our trip, my partner Kevin and I met with Joy, Thorin and another ex-premie in London Friday night for a last-minute 'mini-Latvian' event over Indian food and Carlsbergs. A grand time was had by all. We mostly laughed hysterically about our premie careers and the ridiculous crap we believed, and even Kevin had a good time, despite never having received the holy knowledge, nor ever kissing the lotus feet. Thorin convinced me that I should post something about our trip and I must say it was splendid. Not once during the entire trip did I see any evidence whatsoever that anybody but a few thousand dwindling, aging, cult hangers-on from the hippie era have any interest in the former Lord of the Universe. But I saw plenty of evidence that ordinary people are fascinating, open, and are expressing more humanity than I usually ever saw among premies, most of whom would step on your face if it meant an opportunity to get closer to the lotus toes. We also got the chance to see both England and Ireland electrified by World Cup football games most Americans, me included, cannot even understand. It is ironic, because the USA team was/is apparently doing well but most Americans have no idea the event is even happening. We arrived in Cork to ghostly empty streets whilst Ireland was scoring against Cameroon, only to see people pour into the streets in a sea of green and Irish flags after the game was over. We watched England beat Argentina in a pub in a tiny village on the coast of the Dingle Peninsula. While the Irish were not openly cheering for Argentina, I got the distinct impression they wouldn't have minded if England had lost. [That prick Cromwell really fucked Ireland and I guess the Irish haven't completely forgotten about all that, even though it was a long time ago.] Kevin and I, both of English/Irish ancestry, were rooting for both England and Ireland, but kept discreetly quiet there. We watched a room explode with screams in a pub in Ballydavid when Ireland tied Germany, and in a gay pub in Gallway (yes there are some there and this one was full of men, women and kids) we yelled with everyone there when Ireland went 3 nil against Saudi Arabia. Must say though, Gallway became a bit of a drunken mass later that day. We couldn't think of any event, except perhaps a tragic one, that has any similar uniting effect in the United States. It was fun to be a part of it over there. For anyone interested, the itinerary was: 1. The 18th Century frozen. Bath -- my favorite city in England (Roman baths, the Royal Crescent, Paladian architecture); 2. The English magical mystical/ ecclesiastical/Cathedral tour -- Stonehenge, Avebury, Wells, Salisbury, Glastonbery, etc.; 3. Death by Quaint: The Cottswolds (Stow-On-Wold, Snowshill, Broadway, Chipping Campden, and the super-sweet clotted cream fudge); 4. The Wild Wales Tour: The Elan Valley (with the most incredibly beautiful Victorian dams you ever saw), the Beacon Brecons, St. Davids, Tenby and Pembrokeshire staying on an organic farm, and the overnight ferry/party from Swansea to Cork; 5. The core of our trip was a 6-day, 100-mile hike around the Dingle Peninsula in Ireland. Spectacular does not describe it. Trekking through ancient stone habitations, walls, sheep, ogham stones, circle forts, Guiness, the musical sounds of Gaelic, and music, Guiness, music, Guiness, music. Yeah, we were tired by the end, but it was incredible and I would recommend this to anyone. And it is absolutely true the Guiness tastes great in Ireland and awful everywhere else. 6. The final week was the West of Ireland, music, Guiness, Irish crosses, Guiness, on to Dublin, James Joyce, the 'tart with a cart,' music, Doolin, and our delight in finding a California-style organic, vegetarian restaurant, and occasionally a really strong American-type cup of coffee, but, thank God, there are no Starbucks in Ireland. And we ended with the mini-Latvian back in London with my old friend Joy and two other exes before returning home. Anyhow, it's great to see EPO and the Forum going strong, and to see such smart, articulate and thoughtful people continuing to participate here. I'll be disappearing from here again, but I'm sure I'll be back eventually at least just to check in. Here's wishing the best to all of you. Please feel free to email me, and if any of you are ever in the Bay Area, please let me know. Joe [Who is a little sad because I heard Ireland lost to Spain in one of those strange 'sudden death kick' thingys, which somehow does not seem very fair.]

Subject: Aw bugger From: hamzen To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 22:59:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would have been really good ta meet ya. Sounds like you had a wicked trip though Re the world cup, never a truer word, one day you yanks will realize it's all one world and you'll join the rest of us, and realize it's not all about winning befgore getting involved

Subject: Not about winning? From: Joe To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 09:36:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Ham, I would have liked to meet you too. Maybe next time. If the world cup really isn't about 'winning,' you might tell the populations of England and Ireland about that. From what I could tell during my visit, they seemed to think winning, for the teams from their respective countries, was 'all' it was about, or at least at the very top of the list. :) Everyone did seem to be good-natured about it, though. Also, note that despite the admittedly aggressive nature of American football, I don't recall I have ever heard of American football spectators killing each other in the stands, unlike what sometimes occurs in your part of the world. :) But like I said below, I think part of the reason soccer isn't a bigger deal over here is that it's harder, if not impossible, to fit in television commercials in a game which has no time outs. If there were money to be made on it, we probably would be getting it on network TV. Also, if the American networks reactions to the Olympics are any guide, which constantly inform us how many more medals the US is winning than anybody else, I'd actually be a little concerned about what might happen if it became a matter of national pride that an American team do well (win) in the World Cup. Perhaps we, and the world cup, might be better off if Americans just be concerned about whether New York or San Francisco is heading to the Superbowl. Just some thoughts.

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: Thorin To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 08:27:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See Joe, didn't I say that writing that stuff was going to feel good. It sure read good! :) Hope the flight went well? It was great putting a face to the voice - and what a gruff voice you have eh? (joke!). And meeting up with Joy and Kevin was a real ....um ... joy. I really liked the way Kevin went out of his way of not only understanding, to him what were, total strangers but also responding to that in such a thoughtful manner. Joy's disarming candour about things was very refreshing. Thanks for prompting that meeting. Now, what with your great writing skills and fresh journey material, you should go on and write up a Tourist Guide to Offtrack European Sites. Go on! - I am sure it will get into the top10. cheers, Thorin

Subject: Thanks Thorin From: Joe To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:21:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Yes, it did feel kind of good to sum up the vacay. It was also great meeting you. You looked almost exactly as I thought you would. The flight home was fine, but flying West makes for a very long day. Yes, both Joy and Kevin are sweethearts. (I think I will keep both of them.) :) I don't know about travel writing, but it does seem like a good job, doesn't it? Thanks again. It was great seeing you on Friday and thanks also for that other excellent help you provided a few months ago. All the best, Joe

Subject: Hi Joe (OT) From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm glad to hear you had such a great vacation--it sounded fantastic. I miss you here...pop in from time to time:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Hi Cynthia... From: Joe To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:22:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. I always enjoyed your sincere and thoughtful posts. I might pop in, but probably not for awhile. Take care, Joe

Subject: Hi Joe. (ot) From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 07:46:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, Sorry I missed you on your hop over the pond. Sounds like you had a good time. I was in London at the weekend, very briefly, to see a Daniel Johnson gig. Do you know his stuff? Something that surprises us over here is the lack of attention you're giving to your football team in the World Cup. They are doing exceptionally well, and have made it through to the quarter finals. The whole world is applauding them, (football is the 'World Sport'), but nobody in the States seems to be taking much notice. Friday morning, Britain will be at a total standstill during the match against Brazil- and I'm sure Brazil will be the same. All workplaces, schools etc make arrangements for everyone to either come in late, or come in early and watch the match on the premises. Oh yeah, Cromwell persecuted Catholics everywhere in Britain, not just in Ireland. British and Irish history is an inseperable blend of religion and nationalism. There have been times, for example, when the Irish republicans have fought alongside the Ulster protestants against an English Catholic king- two causes with a common enemy. Anyway, enough blibber blabber Anth half-Irish historian, raconteur, wit, and bullshitter.

Subject: Hi Anth From: Joe To: AJW Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:31:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anth, Too bad we didn't get to see you in London. Yes, the football enthusiasm over there, and the almost total lack of it over here is very interesting. I heard some discussion about how Americans tend to be interested in sports that originated here, and soccer is truly an international sport. I'm not quite sure why that is. Also many, many kids play soccer in the USA (just about all my neices and nephews play on teams with leagues, etc.), but by the time they get to college the vast majority switch to baseball, basketball or American football, because that's what is most popular here, and where the money is. Plus, I have a sneaking suspicion that the way soccer is played, without time outs allowing for commercials, that there wouldn't be the money in it, because there is no room for commericals, which drives the sports industry here, and hence not as much commerical interest. Just a theory. Yes, for being in power for such a short period, Cromwell was sure responsible for an immense amount of destruction in both Britain and Ireland. For destroying the glorious stained glass in the Charter House in Wells Cathetral alone, he should be condemned to eternal damnation. :) To the Irish, Henry VIII was bad, but Cromwell was so much worse. All the best, Joe

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... (Mostly OT) From: bill To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, great to read about your travels ! While you were gone, the Judi Bari case, she was injured in a govt car bombing, she was with Earth First, her estate and the other injured person were awarded either 2& or 4& million and the AP story that came east completely dissed her and covered up the story. It is quite amazing how much the media spins us. My readings of macro finance have led me to those that make the case that the desert storm war was about 2 basic issues, defanging iraq, and killing off the Yen and its huge threat to america and europe financial power. I had heard way back when about the diplomatic meeting that led to saddam thinking the us was saying they would not get involved in 'local' issues, it was a wink and nod to saddam to go ahead and he claims to this day that the meeting was an american trick. The oil price hike hit Japan hard, and combined with yen selling by the west, and bad advice from the west, toppled the mighty power the yen had at the time. The land value of tokyo alone was as much as all california. The japs could have bought the world if they had been smarter. The japanese were of course billed 20 billion for the war, and so was the saudis and even the hapless kuwaities. Many in the middle east now think that desert storm was a geopolitical trick and they may indeed be right. The Japs are in a real fix now and have no real options but to support the supremecy of the dollar. The euro boys also support the dollar as it is in thier interest for numerous reasons. You are interested in political issues, I think the fundamental driver of american actions is doing whatever it takes to keep the dollar as the reserve currency of the world, at this time, the primary aim of the fed is keeping real estate prices in a state of inflation, they hope steadily, and interest rates will go down if needed for that, and 30 year mortgages will change to 100 years when and if that will help. Derivitives and off shore (but acually located in New Jersey) dealings are allowing massive losses to not be accounted for until...well, perhaps never, and as long as the world will accept our debt for thier products, the credit machine will keep creating debt to sell. In the effort to have a global economy as designed by, well, in the tightest nutshell, power and money hungry men, the haves are frankly at this point winging it in uncharted financial waters at the macro level and the twin threats of sabatoge by kooks, and by the bigger threat of the world tiring of selling america products while buying our debt in return. The global economy has been built so america centric that any real downturn in our credit creation capacity will cause tremendous upheavel and dramatic bad problems for billions depending on the present system. It is really that precarious. The level of slight of hand that the central bankers are using right now is completely unprecedented and the rules of 1990 and before are just flat out different now. There is massive spin in this area, and, may they succeed, but greenspan is trapped, they have bet the ranch, if inflation starts to take off, he cant use the interest rate hikes to kill it because the credit markets couldnt take it now with the new design. He alluded to the dillema recently quite frankly but obliquely at the last central bankers meeting. Inflation could topple the confidence in the fiat currency (among other threats like I mentioned above) and then he (wish I had the quote here) but he admitted it would be a very big problem. Heck of a time to live ! What a show this is. But you know, the way the corporations are going, disaster tho it would be, maybe the future mapped out by the WTO and the IMF really should not manifest as the kingdom come on earth. Nothing short of collapse would stop it, and I can see 3 threats that are looming that could take it down. Without slight of hand and derivitives and central bank dollar swaps, and the mighty credit creation machine and other financial manuverings, the twin towers would have brought down the show all by themselves. To me the wildest show on earth is watching the central bankers and the credit market mechanisms fudging and patching and inventing new measures to keep the game working. It is a confidence game. Take some time to think about what if's.

Subject: Judi Bari/Darryl Cherney From: Joe To: bill Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:40:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bill, Yes, the verdict against the FBI and the Oakland police was terrific. $4.5 million should make people notice. The jury was deliberating when I left for Europe and I didn't find out the result until I got home Saturday. Judi Bari (whom I actually got to meet once) was a truly amazing person. It's sad that she died of cancer before the trial was completed. But she actually gave testimony in the trial via videotape made before she passed away. Daryl Cherney, however is still around. [As an aside, only one FBI agent was acquitted and that agent was represented by, guess who, my firm, which only represents truly innocent people:)] All the best Bill, Joe

Subject: Re: Hi Guys.... From: Richard To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 22:32:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Welcome back, Joe. Sounds like a truly wondeful and memorable trip. Makes me recall why I loved my trip to England and Scotland in '87 and makes me want to go again. As you say, there are smart, articulate and thoughtful people continuing to participate here but your astute and insightful posts are definitely missed. Don't be a starnger. Richard, FOJ (friend of Joy)

Subject: Helloooo Richard From: Joe To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:44:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, We didn't make it to Scotland this trip, but maybe the next one. Thanks for your nice comments, and I'm sure I'll be around some time in the future. I'm hoping people will email me if anything 'big' happens. Joe (Also a FOJ, and also a 'FOD' (Friend of Dorothy) or is that also 'FOJ?' (Friend of Judy? :) )

Subject: Welcome home! From: Marianne To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 18:14:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a big hug! So glad you and Kevin had such a great time. Your description of Dingle makes me miss Ireland! Talk to you soon. Much love, Marianne

Subject: Hugs to you too From: Joe To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:46:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought about you when we were in Cork. I already miss Ireland, too. One of my favorite places in the world, to be sure. We came back with a huge cache of CDs from the Doolin area. We've been listening to them ever since.

Subject: Glad you made it back safe & sound From: Joy To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:24:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was, as the Irish might say, great gas to meet up with you and Kevin over here! And meeting up with Thorin was also truly memorable, he's a wonderful guy folks, and the 'other ex-premie' who shall remain anonymous was also great fun to see as well, it having been at least 22 years since I last saw him. To me, one of the down-sides of being an ex and never attending programs is not getting to see people you weren't particularly close to and so haven't kept in touch with, but still have fondness for. It's sad not being able to see a lot of the premies ever again (but a small price to pay for getting M out of my life for good). So this felt like a little bonus. Your descriptions of England and Ireland makes me miss it too, and hell, I'm still here! As Marianne says, glad you had such a good time, it was great to see you in such great form, and I guess all I have left to say is 'GO USA' (and also Go England!). Love, Joy

Subject: Hey Joy From: Joe To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 14:10:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, we made it back safe, but how 'sound' we are others will have to judge. :) Maybe USA v. England in the final? No way. I'm sure Brazil will be in that one! Joe

Subject: Rev. Rawat's sermon in Portland, 1977 From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For some reason or another the ‘Mission’ felt able to publish tapes of various co-ordinator meetings where Maharaji supposedly let his hair down and told it how it is. Buried amongst a ton of other stuff I found this gem that took place in Portland sometime during 1977. By the grace of modern science this is now up online. (well half for now – the rest later). For once the audio quality is good. Hmmm I wonder why there was no copy write message on the tape? From listening to these MP3 files you will readily see why the Mission asked (pleaded) for this stuff to be either returned or destroyed. Some notes I took whilst listening to this historical artefact. - As expected the general tone of the meeting was generally friendly with various episodes of laughter, interspersed with embarrassed silences when M turns on his full SatGuru powers – whatever that may be. - M states quite clearly that the ashram is the background of the community - Service is surrender, we are the servants of the Lord, we should not chit-chat, we should lead a life of service, satsang and meditation - If we are properly surrendered we should allow ourselves to be dictated by GMJ - In time we will truly understand the true nature of "Arti". - Time is running out, the purpose is to surrender to GMJ, to obey his agya, we need to shake this world - Heaven starts after receiving Knowledge, Hell exists before receiving Knowledge. Knowledge is God - In answer to a question from a co-ordinator who is married with children, Maharaji says that married people are a “burden”, we have to be missionaries, and if we are a burden we should “step aside”. - Money raised is for God’s purpose, it is for Guru Maharaj Ji’s purpose - In answer to a request for clarification on previous closure of an ashram Maharaji strikes back real fast “Obey Guru Maharaji Ji’s Agya!” The tape also includes M joking about Mike Dettmers (about Mike’s claim that if you jumped up high enough you could travel whilst the earth moves down below!), the voice of Barbara Kalodny (sp?) recounting her travels “on the road” as well as Premlata playing around with the mike. Anyway well worth the download, part of the history of the mission – the history that Maharaji has tried to bury. Hopefully the rest of the tape will go up shortly. Oh, and by the way, the full Mishler tape in MP3 form is also up - previously only part of it. Can be found here: http://www.ex-premie2.org/download/Mishler/ Thorin, the archivist ..... Portland Audio Files www.ex-premie2.org/download/portland_1977/

Subject: The context of 1977 From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 15:51:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for putting this up, Thorin - I haven't listened to it yet but your quotes from it are very interesting in the context of its time - 1977. 1974-1976 was the time around and after Maharaji's marriage, when all the premies started falling in love with each other and moving out of the ashram. It was quite a 'spacey' time, especially from summer 74 onwards, after Copenhagen (for us Europeans). Suddenly in 1977 Maharaji appeared to pull the reins in again, although this time the emphasis was much more on surrender. Before, it had been mainly on meditation and realising Knowledge. Apparently the context was that he was worried about the drying up of donations after his marriage. Mishler was trying to persuade him to come clean that he wasn't the Lord, but he was against it, apparently fearing that the donations would dry up even more if he did this. Hence the sudden emphasis on surrender and the need to move into the ashram. Ashram premies bring money in of course! I remember that time as rather dark; the joy seemed to disappear and was replaced by a sort of heaviness as Maharaji urged us over and over again to dedicate our lives, with the thinly veiled threat of dire consequences if we didn't. The flavour of the linked audio will probably make a lot more sense if one listens to it fully aware of the context of 1977... Love, Livia

Subject: Re: The context of 1977 From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jun 18, 2002 at 16:22:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember that too ,I think it was at Miami he once again 'offered the gift of devotion '

Subject: Thanks, Thorin. [nt] From: PatC To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 02:46:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The actual Date From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 23:38:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: something is eating my posts From: Brian Smith To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:15:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Something ate my above post Ocrober 11th 1977, it was my birthday, I attended the event and I managed to convince myself that Rawat came just for me as a divine personal lila for my very own special occasion. I blocked the fact that there were several hundred others there who factored in their own illusions for the same purpose. I was under the ether of the cult and the spell of Rawat back then and I could mold the circumstances to fit the story and support the illusion's and fantasy's perpetrated by both influences. Brian... who ultimately realized that in the case of rawat and the cult, ignorance is bliss, truth is just truth and it only hurts when one hangs onto ignorance

Subject: October 11th 1977 From: Brian Smith To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 00:10:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great work! Clear as a bell From: Jim To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 16:37:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Thorin, I'm just now hearing the last bit which I tried to play for Laurie but she's fallen asleep. Don't worry, though, I keep waking her up for the good parts. My favorite bit is where he suggests that disgruntled, or 'confused', premies get together with initiators and just vent as there couldn't be any substance to any of their concerns and once they start talking they'll realize that too. Well what a difference a few decades makes! Now the tables are turned and Maharaji couldn't -- and won't -- ever dare inviting such questions or criticisms. How could he? He's overwhelmed with unanswerable facts and he knows it. He's running scared in a way we wouldn't have dreamt of back then. Thanks much, Thorin. How'd you get the sound so clear?

Subject: Re: Great work! Clear as a bell From: Thorin To: Jim Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 06:19:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim, you asked, How'd you get the sound so clear? Original tape was in relatively good condition. Beyond that use of Cool Edit Pro with noise reduction, Sound Forge and NxtEncode. Hey maybe Visions would like to employ me for their archive project - my rates will be ...... competitive! Reduced rates if they allow me to take copies of their stuff. I bet the security at the archive project is tighter than Fort Knox - just in case there are PWK wavereres there. Just wait till you hear side B of Portland, more gems. Will upload soonish - just waiting for webspace space. Wonder if some brave person wants to transcribe this stuff?

Subject: Rev Rawat's sermon in Pasadena? From: PatC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 10:53:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1: If God is perfect, He is always at peace and cannot become angry or upset at anyone or anything because only an imperfect being can be disturbed in these ways. Likewise, if God is perfect, He doesn’t need or want anything from anyone since if He did need or want anything, He would not be God but an unhappy and imperfect being. 2: Death is nothing to us; once the body and brain decompose into dust and ashes, there is no feeling or thought, and what has no feeling or thought is nothing to us. 3: This is the height of pleasure: to be free of all pain and discomfort in both the body and the mind. When this pleasure is present, all pain, of both body and mind, is absent. 4: Illnesses which cause excruciating pain last only a short time and then you are free. Illnesses which cause mild pain may last long but it is possible to live in such a way that the pleasures of life far outweigh the discomforts. Either way, pain is nothing to fear. 5: It is impossible to be happy without also being wise, honorable and honest, and it is impossible to be wise, honorable and honest without also being happy. Happiness is so dependent upon the practice of wisdom, honor and honesty that being negligent in just one of these will lead to nothing but trouble and sorrow in life. 6: Absolutely anything which will keep you from being harmed by people is good and right. 7: Some men and women want to be famous and well-known because they think that this will make their lives safe and secure. If fame brings safety and security, it is good and right to want to be famous; but if a famous life brings more trouble than an obscure life, it is foolish to want what is actually bad for us. 8: There is no such thing as a pleasure that is bad in and of itself. What is bad are the unpleasant consequences that can result if you do not use your head when deciding on which pleasures to pursue and which to avoid. 9: If every pleasure lasted and affected the entire body and not just one or two parts, there would be no difference between one pleasure or another; they would all be equally desirable. 10: If the things which bring pleasure to licentious men and women freed them from troubled minds, that is, if such a life freed them from the fear of God, the fear of death and the fear of pain, and if those things further taught them how to rationally manage their desires, we would find no wrong with these men and women; they would have reached the height of pleasure and would be free of all bodily and mental pain, which is the beginning and the end of all evil. 11: If our peace of mind were not disturbed by superstitious ideas about comets, falling stars and other types of astronomical phenomenon, or by the thought of death (which is really nothing to us), and also by our lack of understanding of the limits of pain and how to rationally manage our desires, we wouldn’t have any need to acquire a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature. 12: An individual cannot be free from the most disturbing fears about the universe as long as he lacks a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature and instead believes in legends, parables and myths. So without a thoroughly scientific understanding of nature, one cannot reach the height of pleasure. 13: There is no point in working hard to achieve physical safety and security from those who can harm you if your peace of mind can be easily attacked and destroyed by fears and anxieties that result from an unscientific understanding of why nature works as it does in the sky, in the earth, or anywhere else in the universe. 14: While some safety and security from others might possibly be obtained if you were to amass great wealth and power, safety, security and tranquility would more certainly be yours if you simply lived a quiet and simple life withdrawn from the world. 15: Understand that true wealth is having what you really need for a happy life and you will find out how easy it is to be completely satisfied; mistakenly believe that wealth consists in possessing all that one could possibly imagine and dream up and there will never be an end to your toil and sweat. 16: By continuously managing the most important matters of life according to the dictates of reason, the wise man or woman constructs a lifelong defense against misfortunes and troubles and seldom suffers from them. 17: The honest individual has more peace of mind than anyone; it’s the dishonest man or woman who always has some reason to worry and feel anxious. 18: As soon as the height of physical pleasure has been reached by the satisfaction of bodily craving, there is no greater pleasure beyond that to be enjoyed; one has reached a plateau that cannot be surmounted. At that point, one can vary the type of pleasure; one cannot increase the intensity. Mental pleasure also has a natural limit which cannot be surpassed and it is this: the peace of mind that results from the rational understanding and pursuit of pleasure and a thoroughly scientific understanding of those things which used to fill the mind with fear and trembling. 19: An immortal life would not provide an opportunity for any more pleasure than this mortal life does. A rational understanding of happiness makes clear the fact that the height of pleasure is attainable here and now, in this life, and it cannot be surpassed, even if one could live forever. 20: If there were no natural limit to pleasure, it would take an eternity to satisfy the infinite number of desires and wants that one could imagine and dream up. The mind, however, is able to discover the natural limit and height of pleasure; it is also capable of freeing us from all fears of any life after death so that we do not need, want nor fear eternity. Therefore, even if the time has come for us to depart from life, we can approach our final rest with the absolute confidence that we have enjoyed all of the pleasure that it was possible to enjoy. 21: The individual who learns what the natural limits of pleasure are knows how very little is actually required to satisfy his or her needs and have a happy life and how easy it is to obtain it. Therefore, it is unnecessary to spend one’s life struggling and slaving away. 22: In all decision making, the criterion should be the ultimate goal of life which we have set before us and the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience (rather than what others wildly imagine): if you stray from this rule, you will be overwhelmed with doubt and confusion. 23: If you deny or dismiss all of the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience, there will be nothing left to serve as a criterion for judging anything, even those views which you state must be false. 24: Absolute confidence in determining what is true and what is delusional is only possible if you learn to clearly distinguish between those ideas which are based upon the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience and those ideas which have their origin in the imagination and nothing more. In other words, if you give the same authority to the imagination and your inner feelings that you give to the no nonsense facts of what we actually know and experience, you will never be completely sure about anything, as there will no longer be any criterion left to remove your doubt and confusion. 25: If you do not keep the ultimate goal clearly in mind whenever you must decide whether to pursue or avoid a particular pleasure or pain, but decide according to some less well thought out criterion, your behavior will not be consistent with your principles. Of course that's not Rawat's sermon. It's THE PRINCIPAL DOCTRINES OF EPICURUS (341-270 BC.) Rev Rawat probably talked about himself and his toys and reminded everyone to breathe as usual. The premies probably left feeling nicer than they did when they went in but the feeling will soon wear off and they will be left with nothing much else to go on except yearning for the next time they see Rev Rawat. Meanwhile people are still learning something useful and wise from Epicurus who lived 2,300 years ago.

Subject: Thanks, Pat From: Carl To: PatC Date Posted: Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 13:39:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This sort of well-reasoned, rational and practical philosophy always has appealed to me. Also, Marcus Aurelius and other Stoics; there was a Cleanthes, and much later, Plotinus (Swiss?), (not to mention Lao Tzu and also some of the Upanishad writers . . . lot's of food for thought and deep reflection). Thanks for posting all that. No wonder the current premies are starving for some real substance. They're being fed a steady diet of cotton candy concepts. So sad.

Subject: Smells kinda funny, Pat From: Gregg To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 19:23:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, PatC, I had my suspicions that this didn't have the telltale odor of Rawatism halfway through #1, but #5 was the clincher: he talked about wisdom, honor and honesty being necessary to happiness. When, as any good premie knows, receiving the Gift of Knowledge and practicing secret devotion to the Living Lord are the only things one needs to be happy. Wisdom is pretentious, honor is a myth, and honesty...well, things change, don't they, and words are meaningless, really, so... Anyway, this Epicurus guy...he's not on the Perfect Master list along with Kabir and Jesus, is he? I thought not.

Subject: Re: Rev Rawat's sermon in Pasadena? From: PatD To: PatC Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 12:51:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes,I was just starting to get around to disentangling myself from Catholic cultural antagonism towards the likes of Epicurus(& Marcus Aurelius)when along came the blockbuster godball of them all saying, 'can all that stuff,what you really need is an exctasy cult with its roots in the old stone age.....& I'm your man'. Like a fool I fell for it,but I wouldn't've continued for so long if there hadn't been a criminal conspiracy around the greater than god to keep the facts of what was really going on from the hoi polloi. Must go now to bathe the children ready for school in the morning & then cook something really tasty.

Subject: Devoted for life...and beyond From: Bart To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 09:28:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am sure most premies are devoted to lard for life and would be more than willing to follow him where ever he may be even in the after life. Back on Forum V someone said there's a special place in hell for a guy playing god and deluding people out of pure greed. Most premies would be glad to follow their degenerate master straight to hell. And like someone said down in a tread below, for certain premies that's just what they deserve. I remember seeing a movie a long time ago where a cult leader was in jail and his followers were still cheering him on. Cult mind fuck runs pretty deep. Here's a comment about the LG forum, I read a post here yesterday that said they delete anything that is not 'positive', it's like put on a happy face no matter what, true sales man talk. And premies do have something to sell, that their knowledge has made them so happy, superior and fulfilled, truly above everyone else. Yeah right.

Subject: a link for aspirants and K-lites [nt] From: anon To: Bart Date Posted: Sun, Jun 16, 2002 at 14:00:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm www.ex-premie.org/best/pathalley3.htm