Subject: The light still shines From: Jeff To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:15:19 (PDT) Email Address: jefflyttle@gilanet.com Message: I am totally confused how such Knowledge can be destroyed by Mind. Have practiced with Tibetan teachers and all respect the Nineth Gate. MJ is Satguru, no doubt, have seached the world over and he is a high Teacher. At the moment of death, I choose the inner Light and the toenails of my Satguru.

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: Neville To: Jeff Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 02:25:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What actually happens is that faith in MJ is destroyed by a *functioning* mind. Such a mind has the discernment necessary to examine his long history of drunkeness and adultery and realise that this person cannot possibly be in any way divine. Neville

Subject: Re: The light still shines From: Carlos - To Jeff To: Jeff Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:28:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a practicing premie and an unrepentent bhakti who still reveres our Master I would be glad to respond to your post. But this is not the proper forum; I can't give you a real, heartfelt response without speaking about Maharaji and Knowledge in ways that would be offensive to the FA of this forum, and OT to it. Go to Hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum , commonly called 'Life Is Great' and start a new thread. Ask for me in the subject line. On that BB I can respond without it being OT or offensive to the BB.

Subject: Such 'Knowledge' ... From: Stonor To: Jeff Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:28:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: can NEVER be destroyed by Mind ... but can (as I understand it) be destroyed by Brain. One of the problems for me with seeking spiritual guidance elsewhere, or anywhere, had to do with the subtleties of language... Who would choose the toenails of anyone while dying?!!! Anna

Subject: you mean Brian and not brain, right? From: monty p. To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 05:04:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: weird Maharaji quotes From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:44:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this is the time to start posting a list of weird and wonderful Maharaji quotes along the lines of the 'you can be experiencing Knowledge and still carry out immoral acts at the same time' quote. These priceless words actually give a semblance of an idea of who he really is, between the lines and behind the facade. A friend told me yesterday that he said something particularly unpleasant about neighbours and how to deal with them. Then there was the quote below about things being much better now that we don't have to bother with silly concepts like morals. Any actual, verbatim quotes, anyone? I expect the particularly unpleasant ones will be from the last 10 years or so - the era in which he seems to have given up any pretence of being 'spiritual' or Knowledge being any sort of inspiration to goodness or altruism. (Perish the thought) Livia

Subject: Re: weird Maharaji quotes From: Observer To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 16:56:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There you go, Livia. This is the ex-premie forum in a nutshell. You print a 'quote' which isn't actually a real quote, rather a bit of free-floating detritus that someone with a charge built up vaguely remembers, inaccurately and out of any context, spun to make Maharaji look ridiculous, which you believe solely because it supports other bits of silliness that you've unquestioningly digested and fallen for. Just a game of Telephone. Then you ask for similar 'quotes' to further your agenda. Kind of similar to the cheapest political campaign tactics that you would never fall for. You can't possibly be this gullible and easily fooled in other areas and relationships of your life, one hopes. I suppose it fills the time. The real deal is so much greater and more valuable than this gossipy tripe. To each their own.

Subject: If you don't like this forum... From: Cynthia To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:03:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...you don't have to be here, Observer. Plus, Rawat isn't the real deal. That's the point, whoever you are.

Subject: I've read transcripts of Rawat's .... From: Stonor To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:36:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: talks, and they are detritus. You don't need quotes, you don't need anything except to look at what he has said ... flotsam and jetsam floating on the sea he says he will save you from. He's a wreck himself. Just listen, if it doesn't hurt your head and heart too much. I find much better nourishment for my conscience and soul from other sources.

Subject: Re: weird Maharaji quotes From: Neville To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:41:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, Observer, we pull out quotes by the hundred that are recorded in black and white in old copies of 'Six Lane Freeway' etc, and have M and premies deny to our faces that M ever said any such thing. That's why the word 'revisionism' is so popular on this site. So don't accuse us of spinning rumours. Personally I'm only too aware of the danger of building mere rumours into propaganda and I have no intention of paying attention to anything not properly substantiated. Take a look at the EPO site and you will see a great deal of careful investigation with many eyewitness accounts, documentary evidence etc. The call for M's own words to be held up to scrutiny is perfectly reasonable. (And utterly damning.) Neville

Subject: My personal favorite From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:51:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat quote: Suck the rat! You love Coca-Cola!

Subject: Context! We need context... [nt] From: Neville To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:42:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: It was an ashram meeting w/Ratwot, Neville... [nt] From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:01:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: having doubts From: cat To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 01:01:03 (PDT) Email Address: luni_cat61@hotmail.com Message: thank you for your site. I have recently been introduced to Maharaji by a new friend and after searching fruitlessly for a master who gives me the power and tecniques that will work I thought Maharaji could be the answer. One of the reasons is that after being involved in the Sannyas Community I am drawn to the fact that in all the Introductory videos Maharaji says 'I don't want your money, you couldn't afford what I'm offering.' When does this demanding money that i'm reading about start.And who decides and how when I am ready for knowledge, The friend told me I can come to one day of an upcoming event but i'm not ready for knowledge yet?

Subject: Re: having doubts From: Richard To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:42:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And thank you for sharing your story, cat. As others have suggested, there is quite a lot of valuable information collected on the EPO website which has a link from this site. Read over some of the basic background, the 14 Objections, as well as the Best of Forum pages. Also take a look at how current followers spend their time and conciousness at Life Is Great forum. The path offered by Maharaji, who now refers to himself as Prem Rawat, is about devotion to him in exchange for an indefinable experience. Part of that devotion is called 'Appreciation' which translates into giving one's time in 'Participation' and money or other resources as gifts of 'Gratitude'. I respect and honor your seeking something meaningful in your life, but I suggest you see the whole picture and then make an informed decision. All the best to you, Richard Life is Great www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum

Subject: www.enjoyinglife.org [nt] From: Cat, check out To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:36:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: who posts 'my personal favorite' From: cat, the gerry in the thread above this To: Cat, check out Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:49:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is Forum Administrator for 1 of the ex premie forums. His behaviour in that post is pretty typical for him, not some rare outbreak. Which may give you an idea how much to rely on the objections to Maharaji voiced by exes.

Subject: How about ... From: Stonor To: cat, the gerry in the thread above this Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:22:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: non-anythings who never bought into the guru trip, but have had a lifelong spiritual path that has included learning these K techniques without the 'dogma' (not that I liked them nor practiced them much as part of my meditation), which has been very satisfying, even if much more demanding? Anna (Stonor is one of my family names :)

Subject: Re: having doubts From: Cynthia To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:55:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I would recommend you change your alias because Catweasel is a troll here who often goes by many variations of Catweasel, including Cat. It you do change your alias, please let us know that's it's you (Cat) doing it in order to avoid confusion. About money and Maharaji. Maharaji has an insatiable lust for money and he receives it in small and large amounts from around the world. The first way he gets money is to hold an event or program. His representative companies charge high rates to get to a program for premies (PWKs) and for aspirants if they are allowed to go. Then you get knowledge. After that there is much pressure to donate money. He has all sorts of manipulative ways of getting money into the coffers of organizations or companies that were formed in which he has stock... and then it goes to him. There a lots of cash receipts that go unreported especially when he has Darshan lines (when a devotee goes before him to kiss his feet or bow before him). Many who do this ritual also give cash in envelopes or cards. Maharaji or Prem Rawat, has accrued much wealth (millions of dollars) from his followers over the past 30 years. I gave regularly before and during the time I lived in the ashram. He has confidential fund raising campaigns when he wants a new yacht or jet or Rolls Royce or a new palacial residence. Usually these are promoted by individual representatives of Prem Rawat who go on tour and speak to premies only, begging for money for this or that new expensive toy or project which M wants. He lives an oppulent life but when he came to the west, first to the UK, then the U.S. he didn't have any substantial money. He became a multi-millionaire on the backs of his followers. And it's a lifetime commitment, because frankly, it's a personality cult. I you want to dedicate your entire life to Maharaji (Prem Rawat) and not give money, you still will be hooked into a cult either way. It's your decision to make; I advise you to run as fast as you can from both your new friend and this cult. It's not worth it and Maharaji's meditation techniques don't have any special magic to them just because he says so. It's a lie. I wish you the best and hope you don't listen to the spin that Catweasel and Janelle have placed below. It's a cult. Not a meditation group, but a cult. Please be careful and feel free to post here if you feel the need. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Re: Cynthia having doubts From: Janelle To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:20:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What kind of spin are you talking about? Cat asked a question - I simply answered it from my perspective. Maharaji does not ever receive money from holding a program - where you were misinformed on this matter I don't know. You speak with so much conviction, yet none of it is even remotely true.

Subject: :'From your perspective? .... From: Stonor To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:32:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How big'is your perspective that you can state it as 'truth'? As a 45 year-old who has attended many 'spiritual' programs over many years, I can assure you that Maharaji (isn't it now Prem Rawat?) charges A LOT for the little he gives you. But that's just my perspective. (I'd be willing to mention names, if you insist) Anna (Stonor is one of my family names)

Subject: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: CATWEASEL!! To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 01:30:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THAT NAME IS TAKEN!!:p

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: cat To: CATWEASEL!! Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 03:09:20 (PDT) Email Address: luni_cat61@hotmail.com Message: THAT NAME IS TAKEN!!:p --- is the name cat or catweasel taken? - if cat is taken what do i do about it?

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for Doubt!! From: Catweasel To: cat Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 06:41:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I suggest you pick another. You would probably not enjoy the aggravation of using anything like my name or what is often shortened to. I would not be the most popular poster around here:)

Subject: Never Leave ROOM for two cats in the yard From: PollDoc To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:11:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cat - not be the most popular poster around here?? That's a fuckin' matter of fucking opinion mate!;)

Subject: Re: Never Leave ROOM for two cats in the yard From: Stonor To: PollDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:32:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I appreciate your current infatuation with html, but your post is UGLY in content and presentation. I thought you had a bit more class ... I know you have the potential. Anna

Subject: Apologies Anna From: SubdueDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I realised my post was a little overdramatic and went back to make some edits. Unfortunately, it seems that if one opens another post before going back to one's own, then the edit door is shut. At symposium today I edited FIVE times before finally leaving a post. It's great! I feel one can really get a good grip on the message once one sees it up on the boards - and then make the necessary fine tunings from there. It appears easier on some boards then others. Alas, my shameful extravagance is now here for all to see.... and judge :( Doc - who has been appropriately HTML'd =) But still thinks Cat is more popular than he thinks - and they'll admit ;)

Subject: 'than', not 'that', David :) (edit incomplete :)... From: Stonor To: SubdueDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:05:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But thank you for your apology ... melodrama has never rubbed me the right way ... and I agree that Catweasel is much more popular than most will admit ... even I have had some interesting interactions with him on rare occasions and I bear absolutely no grudge against him at this point, no matter what he is motivated to post from time to time. Thanks for bothering to respond! :) Anna

Subject: But it says 'than' From: BadgrammerDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:28:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't get it at all. After your completely correct correction (CCC) I went to try and change it... And the damn thing let me! This is despite me having been all over the place since posting it. Doc - who completely does not understand how the edit software turns itself on and off at will.=)

Subject: Good! From: Stonor To: BadgrammerDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:37:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It only 'doesn't let you change it' if your ISP has changed since you posted it ... which for me, with a high speed connection, means everytime I get off/get online. :) Haven't you been around a little longer than I have? ... now that I think of it, maybe not.

Subject: But... From: Not around longDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:45:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't changed my isp or even left the forum. I was reading and posting to Sir Dave over the page and never went offline. I do get cut off sometimes due to local cyber traffic but I don't remember that happening in the last half hour. Doc - who doesn't remember anything he does after half an hour.

Subject: So, there you go ... From: Stonor To: Not around longDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no problem whatsoever to edit your post! :) What DOES Knowledge do for you if your conscious memory is so short term?

Subject: So, there you go ... From: Stonor To: Not around longDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no problem whatsoever to edit your post! :) What DOES Knowledge do for you if your conscious memory is so short term?

Subject: err..... From: AnswerDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 04:33:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It allows me to experience having no memory at all! I really dig that :) Doc - who was always into getting out of it ;)

Subject: MIAOW!!!!!! [nt] From: Tibbles To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:19:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: to cat, NOT catweasel From: gerry To: Catweasel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 07:15:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi cat, Yes, the rawat group is a cult and yes, they will soak you for constant donations once you've received the Special K. Why not save yourself a lot of time and money and learn the techniques from the ex-premie website. They will 'work' just as well and you won't have to waste your life, money, times and talent an a stinky personality cult. Also, this Catweasel fellow is a dyed-in-the-wool cult member and has been a constant disruptive and very negative influence on our discussion board. I'll try to dig up a picture and name of this goof ball later. Don't worry about him.

Subject: Re: to cat, NOT catweasel From: Janelle To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:05:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Cat, Donations are a way to support Maharaji's work if you choose to, but definitely not manditory. I have not given nor have I been asked for any money in years. There are meetings held occasionally for people who are interested in tax deductible donations, usually by invitation only. It is a very low key thing.

Subject: Re: Janelle From: Vicki To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:20:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janelle, I don't know what community you are from, but your experience definitely is not the norm. I was a premie for 28 years, yes 28, until nearly one year ago. I speak from personal experience. Frequently I was called to attend special video events with a special guest speaker. These always were people who were big in Elan Vital fundraising. We even, on some occasions, had to pay not only the expenses for the special hall they wanted, but their expenses as well. Only on two occasions did they pay their own way. Aspirants were specifically not invited. It was felt they shouldn't have to be in on fundraising. Fundraising is actually not the correct term. Yes, funds were wanted on that occasion, but what was really wanted was bigger monthly donations. If you've never seen the monthly donation envelopes, they come with your name on the label, and on the inside undercover there are boxes to check for turning over stocks, bonds, etc, as well as bequething funds upon death. Every event I've been to, the pressure was there to contribute. Contribution booths are staffed. Maharaji himself addresses this, only under the heading of 'participation.' Participation means donating cash, as well as free services. Mostly cash. So if you, Janelle, do not live in a community where this is constantly brought up, then I can only assume that you were one of the people considered dead weight by EV. There are statistics galore pinpointing where the contributing premies are. But the BEST part about contributions and participation is the 'large donor' category. If you give lots of cash, then you get invited to sit up front in the best seats. You will also get invited to gatherings that are hush hush except for other large donors. You will have a special table to pick up your 'seat card' ie ticket, at events. They don't want large donors in line with average premies lest the little secret gets out and there's anarchy at the event. I worked the area many times at events where "seat cards" are picked up by the attendees. We were given scripts to read verbatem, word by word, telling people how to pay for their cards, as there was no indication who paid and who didn't in advance. If people had already paid, we were then specifically told to tell them how to make an additional contribution. There was ugly pressure from the table where the money was taken because people were not forking over more cash. Infact, people were getting indignant even being asked if they had alread "donated" for their seat card. I had EV people screaming in my face because they weren't getting more money. It is told that there is never enough money to cover event expenses. When the math is done correctly, there is not only enough money, but surplus as well. Of course the "Speaker's", as Maharaji is referred to, fees are a well guarded secret so he and Elan Vital or the PPF can claim he doesn't charge for events or knowledge. Technically that might be true, but when expense tally hundreds of thousands of dollars, then he wouldn't need to be "paid". So tsk tsk Janelle, obviously you are not up to status quo as far as donations are considered, which is fine. But don't go telling this aspirant that there is no pressure or that money doesn't dictate where you sit in relation to Maharaji or how you are treated by Elan Vital, because it definitely does matter.

Subject: You speak from personal experience? From: StatDoc To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:37:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Phew! Hell, that's a relief, we thought for a brief moment that you might be speaking about the experience of all those people who were so unmercifully ripped off by the cult gestapo fundraisers over the years. Perhaps you could let us know which community you have been talking about? We will contact cult officials in the area and have the offending money grabbers hauled before the Area Commandant, with possible Court's Martial proceedings to follow. Not one person in the community of 300 where I live is ever pressured for cash. Funny that. It is entirely a voluntary thing for those of us with more money than others, to contribute to the infrastructure of events in this part of the world - as in any other part. Your post was deliberately and provocativly biased, full of untruths and entirely misleading. EG: 'There was ugly pressure from the table where the money was taken because people were not forking over more cash.' Do you mean the cattle prods and discreetly revealed shoulder holsters were NOT enough persuasion? 'They don't want large donors in line with average premies lest the little secret gets out and there's anarchy at the event.' Bollocks! I always line up with the plebs and they don't begrudge me a favourable ride at all. Hell, I pay for it! You make it all seem so sordid and nasty... But by golly... Why ain't that in the least bit surprising??!!

Subject: How much money have you given m over the years? From: Stonor To: StatDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:17:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember reading stories about how generous towards m you've been over the years with your family's considerable wealth ... he never wanted it? Anna

Subject: Re: How much money ... From: Carlos - To Stoner To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:48:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It may interest you to know that M got offered money to reveal K on more than 1 occasion. The largest amount I heard of, back wnen DLM was still in debt to the tune of $3 million over the Mikkenium event. His turning it down was 1 of the things that freaked Bob Mishler out and caused him to leave M. That story I got from someone Mishler told it to, still fuming, the day after it happened. We talked about how wierd it was for Mishler to not trust M enough so that, in his doubt, he could fret about how we could get the money together.

Subject: Why on earth ... From: StonOr To: Carlos - To Stoner Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:56:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: do I have trouble believing this ... is it because the meditation techniques called 'Knowledge' are already public knowledge, to the extent that I have learned them all in various $10 to $15 per hour and a half yoga classes over the years ... along with many more techniques and practices? Or is it because I remember that the Beatles taught me that money can't buy you love, let alone spiritual development. I can't believe you posted this Carlos!!!!! It's a joke! Anna

Subject: No joke, Anna From: Carlos - To Ana To: StonOr Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 23:37:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We'd just pulled off something that must have impessed the hell out of the bussinessman who wanted to buy Knowledge. We'd just pulled off, about 6 months earlier, the largest civilian airlift in history. We'd leased 38 jumbo jets, 747s, to make it easier for premies and aspirants from around the world to come to the '73 Hans Jayanti, Millenium. We'd also got discounts for premies at the local Houston hotels. 40,000 rooms were rented under those discounts. Those stats are solid, Anna. They were made available to me cause I was still Treasurer of DLM of Puerto Rico when I got them, in late Dec. 73 or early Jan. 74. I can't swear Mishler didn't lie to the girl who shared it with me, cause I have no proof. But I know she told me the truth, the way we talked about it, the way she was puzzled about Mishler's being pissed about something M had done .. there is no reasonable doubt possible, Anna. And there would be no reason for him to lie. She was an ashram resident, the gopi type. If he'd wanted to impress her he certainly wouldn't have faked being steamed about something M did.

Subject: No but Glenji Did!!! From: SatgurusponsorDoc To: Stonor Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:38:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry Anna, but like Shri Mahatma Carlosji I can't give you a real, heartfelt response without speaking about Maharaji and Knowledge in ways that would be offensive to the FA of this forum, and OT to it. But now we are on speaking terms. What about a date? I can meet you a little time before my upcoming flogging on the weather station. But only if you promise to 'dress' for the occasion. I presume you know of the event I'm talking about ;)

Subject: Re: No but Glenji Did!!! From: Carlos - To Doc To: SatgurusponsorDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for what, I think, you meant as a compliment (unless you were being sarcastic, I can just never tell with you, Doc!). But I don't yet, and probably never will, even if I'm given a 1,000 more lives, be entitled to the honorific 'Shri' or the title 'Mahatma'.

Subject: Blatant evasion!!!! From: Stonor To: SatgurusponsorDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:48:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotcha big time! :) Let me tell you, Daveji, there are people in this world I would devote my life to, but m is definitely not one of them. And no premie I've ever spoken with ... via email or in person, has ever given me even the slightest impression that Maharaji and Knowledge are anything at all worth pursuing. A date? My schedule is getting more and more hectic ... when will you be in Montreal? I promise you that I can 'dress' for any occasion ... whether suitably or not! As for the event you refer to ... I doubt that it will be in the fashion column of any newsrag.

Subject: In response to Vicky From: Janelle To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:02:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have also had Knowledge for Twenty something years, and I don't think I was ever considered a dead weight by Elan Vital. I contributed when I could, and was often in charge of fundraising in my area. In recent years, my mother-in-law has needed financial help, so we stopped contributing to Elan vital and give the money to her instead. Nobody ever came to me and asked why the contributions have stopped, and I still get good seats at events. I can honestly say that there has never been any pressure on me to contribute. I did it because I wanted to. I never gave to Maharaji personally because it always seemed his lifestyle was very extravagant. I have heard alot of people here comment on how they gave out of guilt - but those are your issues, not his.

Subject: to Janelle: your issues, not his From: AV To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 00:58:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I had knowledge from way back also. the money thing was never really an issue personally, but there certainly was calls for donations at events. I remember a Rome festival with Joe Anctil on stage getting a load of plastic buckets passed round like tupperware collection plates! Early on, it seemed cute, M was Lord, and because there was nothing we could ever do to repay him, the purchase of a flash car or two seemed a pretty innocent device to focus our devotion; the giving was actually a gift to US, because it provided the boon of service. In later years, that pattern had become embedded into premie life, and few had any idea of the extent of M's material possesions. In the community, before they crumbled, there was ALWAYS some kind of call for money, it was an inexorable and accepted part of premie life. Most of had a picture of poor EV personnel trying their damndest to maintain M's touring schedule on a shoestring budget, hence the overinflated prices for merchandise at events etc. In the ninetees when EV mailshots became regular, it stands out in my mind now that no mail ever EXCLUDED a request for money; coupled with stuff about opportunity and gratitude. Nothing EVER in terms of support or communication channels for premies with difficulties, the sort of thing you may well expect from an organisation that appears to offer something that never perishes, and how that may impact on a life that does. But as I said, it all seemed so much part of, and perhaps an extention of that which we innocently entered into in previous years, that no alarm bells ever rang. You can't see the whole picture from the inside. There certainly does appear to be exclusive large donor events, and it wasn't until I heard about it from a friend of a premie who qualifies, that I actually became aware of the practise. I too only contributed when I wanted to, but always felt bad that I never threw everything I had at the lotus feet, falling upon the mercy of the Lord to sustain me. So if presenting yourself as Lord induced those dilemmas into anyone's life, surely the issues are his?

Subject: Re: Janelle From: Carlos - To Vicki To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At the recent Pasadena event I was in aprox the 1st ten rows. Yes, I pre registerred and paid my $65 or so. That is the first time I've been able to pay in a year or so, tho, cause of $ problems due to my health problems. I've gone to programs free more often than I've paid, I've never been a big money doner, tho I'd like to be one day, yet I've had 1st row seats, been in the Close seats more often than the 'nose bleeds'. How cxome this doesn't jibe with your version? I'm telling the truth, and I don't believe you are intentionally lying on trhe parts I think you are wrong about. (I once saw the Presedent of EVInternational (Tim Gallway's brother in law, haven't been able to remember his name for some reason) scold someone cause they'd tried to get some bucks out of someone, so I know people sometimes did that and it WASN'T with any official OK (tho people may have claimed it was). So I'm really asking if you have an explanation for the discrepancy.

Subject: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: gerry To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:25:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Donations...a very low key thing. Yes, and I'm Santa Claus.

Subject: Re: Ho ho ho, 'Janelle' From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 16:00:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me, gerry, where the rumors that you lived at theNorth pole ever true? And what about the elves, are they real?

Subject: Organized religion and meditation From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:22:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation and shamanism are feared, forbidden and even condemned by orthodox religion. Why? The threat is ultimately political. Personal experience makes people suspicious about dogma and propaganda and they become difficult to control by force of 'authority.' People in touch with their original nature, people in touch with direct experience, lose interest in serving those that rule them.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:15:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Meditation and shamanism are feared, forbidden and even condemned by orthodox religion. What religions would those be? My understanding is that Christian based religions, at least, have acknowledged meditation as a good centering practice. Of course, any talk of gurus being Christ incarnate are verbotten, though. People in touch with their original nature, people in touch with direct experience, lose interest in serving those that rule them. Meditation isn't the only way that people achieve a deep sense of their 'original' nature. Many mystics in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism claim the same thing. Are you saying that only through meditation can people come to a sense of self. There's a long line of mystics that beg to differ. Anyway, I think meditation is as much bullshit as you think organized religion is. And the clowns who brought meditation to the west have screwed it up for most people if any benefits were to be had anyway. It's not as if any of these gurus came here with just meditation to offer. I don't think I have to tell you what they wanted in return for it. Much more than any organized religion asks for.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Dep To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My understanding is that Christian based religions, at least, have acknowledged meditation as a good centering practice. Well it depends on what they mean by meditation. I asked a priest about meditation once and he thought it meant thinking nice thoughts. I've been out of the Christian loop for about 25 years but if some Christian religions are beginning to acknowledge meditation as a centering device, good, that is a step in the right direction. They better start doing something new because many mainline churches are beginning to empty out.

Subject: Re: Organized religion and meditation From: Jeff To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 20:11:17 (PDT) Email Address: jefflyttle@gilanet.com Message: First time here at ex-premie site. Am curious, but so far am happy I can see the old pics and rmember all those happy days. Practicing Knowledge has kept me alive through all the bad times and do not understand how anyone can prefer conceptual chaos over experience of the inner Light that MJ showed me 30 years ago. Am student of world religions and have found thousands of references to this Knowledge in all scriptures. What's the complaint?

Subject: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: gerry To: Jeff Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 20:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That would be www.ex-premie.org. Hey well, welcome to our discussion. There's a lot of ground to cover for a newbie and you can quickly come up to speed by reading the 'real' website. I really appreciate your using your name and leaving an email address and do understand it can be a quite unsettling finding out the truth about Prem Rawat and his Maharaji cult. Yes, many religions talk about an inner experience when one turns his senses, well, inward. Few here would deny that. The devil is in the interpretation of this highly subjective experience. Of course most of these religions have there roots in a pre-scientific time before we understood much about psychology and brain functioning (which is not to say we don't have a long ways to go in these directions.) Look, Jeff, I didn't 'practise' Knowledge for thirty years (it's self knowledge now, btw and he's Prem, not Maharaji now)and I also survived a lot of bad times and feel very happy and fulfilled without devotion to another person or spiritual practise, so I don't really get your point. But that's what this forum is all about: clarifying the issues around our involvement in this cult and getting to the truth about ourselves and our illusions about Prem Rawat, Knowledge and his brand of hindu guru worship. Hope you have your seat belt fastened, fella! EPO www.ex-premie.org

Subject: Re: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of the most coherent, even handed posts I've ever seen you publish, gerry. Reminded me of why I tried to get to know you off web, lo, those many months ago! (What, 8? 9 months ago?) Keep that up and you moght have more luck seducing us over to the dark side, grasshopper! (To thouroughly mix metaphors...) Best wishes.

Subject: Re: This isn't the Ex-premie site, Jeff From: Stonor To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry! I agree with all your points, although I'm not sure about the 'pre-scientific time' stuff! I've survived many things most people would call nightmares or horror movies without any formal religion or religious practices, let alone a 'guru' like m! Maybe Jeff was just wondering why Deputy Dog suggested that meditation was taboo for mainstream religion ... which does seem like a fairly extreme stretch for me too! :) But, like you, I don't understand how Jeff (hi Jeff, would welcome your comments! :) could suggest that m or whoever he calls himself from year to year, could have had any personally concrete role in helping him through life. And I'm glad you've sent him to EPO - it made a huge impression on me when I was wondering. Love to you, Patty, Sophia and the cats! Anna

Subject: Hi Stonor (OT) From: gerry To: Stonor Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:57:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alas, Sophia! I think I'm gonna have to resort to chemicals on that girl. I have given her several baths but the aphids still stalk her relentlessly. Speaking of, I just had a wrestling match with Uncle Spunk in the (newly installed) bathtub and I'm not sure who won. Still counting scars. Just kidding, he's very good about it actually, as long as he doesn't see me get his towel out beforehand. But I'm still up to outsmarting a cat, at least I think I am. And who's Patty again? :) OH my live in girlfriend! Doin' great and relieved to be out of school for the summer. I can't even begin to imagine what Dep is on about. He's way over my head. I leave him to you. You'll have to tell us your Freddy Krueger stories sometime...

Subject: Hi Gerry (OT) From: Stonor To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 21:58:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know if you read my reply/post at Weather about it, but I have an excellent Rodale book on plant problems and I'd like to know if you've turned over all the 'stones' wrt Sophia. If ants aren't involved, which doesn't seem at all likely if you've brought her indoors, and strong hose spray doesn't get rid of them sufficiently, dormant oil would seem to be the next step, as opposed to chemicals. Is Uncle Spunk the hairless one? I'd love to meet him one day! I'm glad that others have taken on Dep, because the first time he passive aggressively tried to get me to try 'Knowledge' a few years ago was enough for me ... besides, he still won't talk to anyone who hasn't (officially) received 'Knowledge' no matter what he says ... the evidence is in the way he won't talk to me - don't know what his 'rationalization' is, and don't care. :) Glad to hear that Patty's doing well - a live in girlfriend for as long as you two have been together would automatically be 'common law marriage' in Quebec! Send her my love! I've already told everyone here (then) a number of my 'Eddy Krueger' stories, and this conversation is already OT!!!! (and they're really not a lot of fun for me to reguritate, unless there's a reason) Drop by the Weather ... Hugs, Anna

Subject: Hi gerry, let me explain From: Dep To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:16:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't even begin to imagine what Dep is on about. He's way over my head. I leave him to you. Gerry, My post was in response to the series of exchanges I had with Marianne about teaching meditation in jail to rehabilitate and change prisoners (see posts on S. N. Goenka sucessfully teaching Vipassana in Tihar Jail in India). I also had a series of rather nasty exchanges with Mickey the Pharisee who, as a clergyman, feels that a nap is better than meditation. My point is that organised religion is more concerned with using rules, concepts, guilt and fear to control behaviour, rather than empowering people using meditation. IMO you can either empower people through meditation and by doing so turn them on to their own strength; or you can control them with rules and regulations and threats of hell if they don't behave appropriately. My point is that organised religion has gone the external control, dogma route, which works only up to a certain point. Meditation is superior. IMO it is more productive to listen to your heart, your inner voice and be truthful to yourself rather than some clergyman/policeman, some external authority telling you what to do. All our concepts and mental conditioning limits us. Meditation allows us to get in touch with our innate inner purity so we will react to situations appropriately and even to use our mind when appropriate. Having people go within is the best way to rehabilitate and change people. With meditation people become a living example of the Ten Commandments rather than obedient slaves to external masters like jailers or clergymen. It is better to empower rather than overpower. So that’s what I’m on about. Hope it is not over your head.

Subject: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:12:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, Dep is right; in fact, in the third year of seminary we are all required to take a class titled: Keeping the Truth from the Masses. It is a very important class and teaches clergymen how to boss people around and prevent them from finding their true selves through applying pressure to their eyes, inserting their thumbs in their ears, breathing until they are snoring under their blankets, and, of course, drinking post-nasal drip and telling themselves that it is nectar. I?ll tell you, nothing frightens me more than the thought that someone will start meditating and think for themselves, because I remember how individualistic and non-conforming those premies were; they weren?t the kind of people who would repeat the same banal statements over and over just because their guru said them. In fact, if I?m in the pulpit and I see someone start to rub their eyes, I scream ?STOP THAT!!!!? because I know they just might see the Divine Light and it would be all over for me! It is possible that not everyone accepts Dep definition of 'experience.' Some people, even some folks here at this site, don't exactly think that the so-called Knowledge is much of a 'spiritual experience.' And there are people in the world who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion. Now, if only I could convince myself that activating my optic nerve was a profound spiritual experience, I could finally understand the Bible in the same manner as Deputy Dog. Those of you who remember the cartoon Deputy Dawg may recall that the primary character was dumb as a post and a bit of a hot head. Of course, those premies who led the CAC attack, and of course, their Guru are all living examples of the Ten Commandments. Whoops, there I go, bossing people around again!!!

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:23:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is addressed to Mickey because I don't bother with Dep any more. It has to be admitted that there is a major anti-institutional thread running through the New Testament, and that, by definition, this thread is anathema to religious institutions. Christ's attack on the Pharisees and teachers of the Law was comprehensive. It was a diverse attack on a diverse phenomenon (or syndrome) that seems to mark every religious tradition. The characterstics of this syndrome include legalism, traditionalism, ritual, piety and self-righteousness (and probably others). Christ's greatest enemies were not the Romans, but the *religious* people. Christ promised freedom to those who 'continued in his word', and my experience has been that this freedom is not political but spiritual, and consists mainly in freeing oneself from the religious nonsense (you can add sacramentalism to the above list) that has accreted around Christianity. Thus, personally, I maintain close relationships with Christian friends, but do not go to church; I engage in no rituals that I am aware of (I do not take communion) and live according to just two laws (Love God and your neighbour as yourself). Comments? Neville

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Carlos - To Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:07:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While we disagree about M & K we seem to agree about much of Christ's message as reported in the Bible, and about organized religions.

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Neville To: Carlos - To Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 02:10:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So, Carlos, what do you think Christ's message was? (In passing: I see nothing wrong with being 'organised'. That is not the issue.) Neville

Subject: Re: Uh-oh, the jig is up! From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:34:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, Dep is right; in fact, in the third year of seminary we are all required to take a class titled: Keeping the Truth from the Masses. That is ridiculous! It's not deliberate like that. It's more a case of the blind leading the blind. Anyway, that was my experience in seminary. It is a very important class and teaches clergymen how to boss people around and prevent them from finding their true selves through applying pressure to their eyes, inserting their thumbs in their ears, breathing until they are snoring under their blankets, and, of course, drinking post-nasal drip and telling themselves that it is nectar. I agree totally! It would be bad for business. That’s why the Pharisees had to do away with Jesus. I’ll tell you, nothing frightens me more than the thought that someone will start meditating and think for themselves, because I remember how individualistic and non-conforming those premies were; they weren’t the kind of people who would repeat the same banal statements over and over just because their guru said them. Got me there! Many premies were conformists but many meditated and got and continue to get great benefit from it. In fact, if I’m in the pulpit and I see someone start to rub their eyes, I scream “STOP THAT!!!!” because I know they just might see the Divine Light and it would be all over for me! I agree. An experience of God beats a concept of God every time. That’s why the churches that are full these days are the more experiential ones, like the Pentecostal churches. IMO the Sabbath should be a day for letting it rip and letting off steam, not for listening to someone drone on and on. The menu is not the meal. It is possible that not everyone accepts Dep definition of 'experience.' Some people, even some folks here at this site, don't exactly think that the so-called Knowledge is much of a 'spiritual experience.' And there are people in the world who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion. Not everyone got Knowledge. And IMO, the people who experience what they call God through orthodox or organized religion are few and far between. IMO they are mostly caught up in the conceptual level, though many are good and well-intentioned people. Now, if only I could convince myself that activating my optic nerve was a profound spiritual experience, I could finally understand the Bible in the same manner as Deputy Dog. Those of you who remember the cartoon Deputy Dawg may recall that the primary character was dumb as a post and a bit of a hot head. Dogs are usually loyal and I am loyal to the experience of Spirit. On the other hand the Pharisees were more loyal to man made concepts and rules. Meditation even lets me cool off my hot head. Of course, those premies who led the CAC attack, and of course, their Guru are all living examples of the Ten Commandments. That’s why I’m not so hot on Mr. Rawat these days. Whoops, there I go, bossing people around again!!! That’s one of the perks of your job isn’t it? The only place where humans are the same is in the nothingness of meditation. We will always have different concepts, even different Christian concepts. Witness the so-called Christian violence in Northern Ireland and the Catholic Inquisition where people were burned to death because they wouldn’t obey the thought police. The nothingness of meditation, the spaciousness of the Spirit is where it is at IMO. That is where G-d is. I see meditation as the ultimate form of worship. You see it as snoring under a blanket and drinking post-nasal drip. You are entitled to your opinions. Would you allow me to have mine? I don't think so.

Subject: What about the shamans ? From: NikW To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:21:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So Dep what's the thing about shamanism ? are you saying Guru = Shaman ? or is it that in your distaste for Prem Rawat you now see meditation as conferring the quality of Shamandom onto the meditator ? It was one thing for us as premies to adopt a stripped down form of Hinduism - after all it was offered by a Hindu, acting within a Hindu tradition but to start claiming shamanism as your/our own, is philosophical and cultural theft. The Shaman is no simple creation of spiritual insight, it is a way that required(s?) not only a prolonged and often harsh immersion within a particular environment, it also required a close involvement with a village or tribal community whose respect was necessary to confer power to the Shaman. There has never been within any of the DLM, EV or whatever incarnation of PW's promotional vehicle, any evidence of a moral commitment to either the natural world or to any sense of external community. The easy revisioning of K into 'self k' shows just how individual centred the PW philosophy always was; Dep if you now want to claim that K leads to a deep connection with the natural world and with human communities perhaps you should point to the evidence, after all there's been 30 years for this to happen.

Subject: Re: What about the shamans ? From: Dep To: NikW Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:58:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NikW, The only reason I mentioned shamanism is that shamans, like meditators, value and trust their own experience. That is where it's at for them. They don't go by the book. Shamans go into a trance using dance, drugs, whatever, and interpret their personal experience. The scholar learns more each day while the mystic unlearns more each day. People who go by the book usually mistrust personal experience. Matthew 13:18-23 18: Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20: But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21: Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matthew 23:13 13: But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Subject: 'Organized' religion has never taken ... From: Stonor To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:40:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: such an extreme stance wrt meditation to my knowledge, in fact, I have spent a number of evenings doing 'Christian Meditation'. They have nothing 'against' it, they just don't promote it to the 'masses', and to some extent, they're right ... they'd lose their 'audience', because most aren't interested in the 'spirit' these days, let alone meditation. You're sounding paranoid and reactionary. Ever read 'The Cloud of Unknowing', or experienced it? Or how about Thomas Merton's work? No meditation in mainstream religion? Surely you jest. I had a friend over today who practices Vipassana (but cheats and moves;), and meditates on Kwan Yin.

Subject: What the hell are you talking about, Dep?... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:01:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, Enlighten me please. I don't understand you at all. And btw, sorry for my crude post to you but you are a very frustrating person about whom I know NOTHING. But I shouldn't have said those things they were not nice. I have a potty mouth and I'm working on it. I have nothing except your posts which don't make much sense to me and I know nothing about your life. Why don't you talk about yourself instead of 'the self?' Be well, Dep, Cynthia

Subject: To ex-EV members From: Brother Brahman-Atmananda To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:00:33 (PDT) Email Address: drdaryl@yahoo.com Message: Please tell us why do you think EV is a cult and why you think Maharaji abused his guru authority http://pub27.ezboard.com/benlightenmentcenteredkriyayogamessageboard this is a new message board Message Board pub27.ezboard.com/benlightenmentcenteredkriyayogamessageboard tourguide-california.com/pictures/Enlightenment.jpg

Subject: Re: To ex-EV members From: Ex-EV member To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 05:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To answer your question read http://www.ex-premie.org/ If you don't get your answer, then please tell us how he did not abuse his position and I will go back.

Subject: Piss off ®.... [nt] From: PatD To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:38:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yeah? PatD? How Come... From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What do you think about this guy? I don't want to waste my time;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Yeah? PatD? How Come... From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:32:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know....he says he's a satguru,and putting the ® symbol after all that brahmanand bollix got up my nose.

Subject: Oops! From: Cynthia To: PatD Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 19:57:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To tell you the truth, I didn't read the page much...and definitely didn't see the symbol. Thanks!

Subject: Re: To ex-EV members From: Cynthia To: Brother Brahman-Atmananda Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 17:10:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Brother, That's a pretty photo. Why do I think that Maharaji and his organization is a cult? That's quite a big question. Have you read ex-premie.org (EPO)? The link is at the top of this page. What is your interest in requesting that we post at your website? Are you familiar with what a personality cult is? If you are not familiar with what a personality cult is then I recommend that you also click on links on EPO, go to reFocus.com or org (it's on EPO) and read that cult awareness site. I would be willing to post on your message board to explain my personal reasons regarding Maharji's cult, but first I need to have a feeling of trust and it would also be helpful if you could specify which message board on your site is the most appropriate on which to post. Or, when I have time tomorrow I will be happy to respond here (as I suspect other ex-premies might) but because I have guests this weekend I don't have the time. Be well, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

Subject: Ron Geaves Lecutures on Maharaji From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:14:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In addition to appearing in a false historical account of Maharaji in the 'Passages' video put out by his "new religion" cult, Dr. Ron Geaves seems to have developed somewhat of a carrier of going around the world speaking on the Maharaji cult and how it has "adapted" and "evolved." Whether he discloses that he, himself, is a member of the cult when he does this, I don't know. For example, a couple of weeks ago in Salt Lake City, Utah, Dr. Geaves apparently appeared on a panel discussing the following subject: From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: An Exploration of Change and Adaptation Ron Geaves (Chester College, UK) Actually, Dr. Geaves was just part of a 'panel' in Morman-town. One of the other members of the very same panel with Ron discussed the following: Family, Religious Authority, and Change in the Hare Krishna Movement E. Burke Rochford, Jr., (Middlebury College) Hmmmm. You might have reconsidered that, Ron. Somebody might think Maharaji was leading a cult like the Hare Krishnas. Ron, you might be endangering your front-row seat if you continue with this. Dr. Ron is appearing on another panel at a conference on 'new religions' in Denmark in September on the following subject: Ron Geaves: Globalization, Tradition, Charisma, and Innovation: the Dynamic Tension between Iconoclasm and Institutionalization in the Teachings of Maharaji Hmmmm, again. A 'new religion?' Maybe this is a talk in which Dr. Ron continues on about how Maharaji got rid of all the 'hindu trappings' like the darshan feet-kissing ceremony. Ooops, he still does that, doesn't he? One wonders how Dr. Geaves will describe what Maharaji's "teachings" actually are, and what point in time (before or after massive revisionism) he will chose to pick them. Would love to hear both of these discussions. I wonder if Dr. Ron will give me copies of his talks. Also, according to Dr. Ron's website, he has the following publications that would make very interesting reading: Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge Does anyone have any idea how to get copies of any of this? Wouldn't it be fascinating to see how Dr. Ron describes the history of Maharaji and his organizations and how he deals with the "lineage" issue? I think it would be.

Subject: This line's a killer From: Sir Dave To: Joe Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:15:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ron Geaves: Globalization, Tradition, Charisma, and Innovation: the Dynamic Tension between Iconoclasm and Institutionalization in the Teachings of Maharaji What the hell does it mean? I thought ''dynamic tension'' was what Charles Atlas taught to turn seven stone weaklings into muscle men. There is none of the above in Maharaji's teachings. It's clearly just an excuse for propogation. But Ron, don't forget to tell them about the time you were ill in India and Maharaji told you to ''leave your sickness in your blankets'' and come and eat a curry. That'll bring the house down.

Subject: Re: This line's a killer From: Neville To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 17:28:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Dynamic tension' was also a term used by the fictional religious leader Bokonnon in Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle', the central theme of this book being that a religion that consisted entirely of lies could still be useful. However, this may be largely a coincidence... Neville

Subject: Re: Ron Geaves Lecutures on Maharaji From: Cynthia To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:09:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, This was discussed here recently and the only thing I can think of to get transcripts would be to contact his--oh my god, I just looked up and saw the Middlebury College guy, E. Burke Rockford, Jr. It's summer, but I'll try to contact him Joe. Middlebury College is over a mountain pass, 45 miles away. I'll call him up and don't worry, I am a very savy phone person and present a professional demeanor:D I think I just might hook you two up. The drive there is a breeze in the summer. Hmmmm... I email you about it. Love, Cynthia (nice to see you here, Joe)

Subject: 1down,1to go...(an asp.bites the dust) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:28:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: True story from about 6 months ago. I was shopping in a health food store and ran into the fiance of an old premie buddy of mine. The guy is a premie from the old days...he 'endorses' M heartily, and will tell anyone he feels comfortble with, about M, and encourage them to receive the big K...... This is curious to me, because I know that he never attends programs or videos, doesn't meditate on any regular basis at all,doesn't do any service or give any money, and goes to a large program with M about every 4 or 5 years..... so basically, this guy does not practice in any regular way that M says you need to (attend videos, practice one hour a day minimum etc.),yet he encourages others to get into it.... His fiance has been an aspirant for about 5 years now, and is sick of getting rejected for the big K, sometimes after travelling to other countries to hopefully receive it.... She was obviously wavering in her commitment to getting K when she saw me. She also thought that I was still a premie, and therefore asked me for some advice or perspective on her situation. The 'deprogramming' took about 2-3minutes, in the produce section... I asked her if she was 'in love' with M, as that seems to be a requirement, and if she was interested in being in this devotional love relationship with him for the rest of her life.... She said NO. I asked her if she liked the people in the organization or the organization itself.... She said NO. I asked her if she wanted to attend videos and programs for the rest of her life. She said NO. I asked her if she was ready to accept M as her spiritual master and never question 'the purity of the master'..... She said NO. I asked her if her boyfriend practices regularly, or seems to have any joy or happiness that other regular people don't seem to have... She said NO.(in fact, she said he was somewhat depressed, but never did anything about it) I asked her if she thought the premies they knew had any special happiness that other people don't seem to have. She said NO.(and in some cases, quite the opposite) I asked her if she thoght the videos gave her anything she couldn't get from other sources... She said NO. (and that, in her words, they were BOOOOOORing...) I then asked her if, in her heart, she really wanted to do this whole thing with M and K.... She said NO. I then told her that my advice was for her to follow her own heart. I gave her the EPO website, which she eagerly wrote down. She thanked me profusely, and said she felt a weight had been taken off of her shoulders. I asked her if she thought the avocados were any good in the produce section where we stood. She said NO. We parted. She felt better. I felt that I had done some service. One down, one to go....

Subject: Re: 1down,1to go...(an asp.bites the dust) From: AV To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:36:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Aaah, but you might look back in years to come and wonder: ''what would have happened if I HAD bought the advocado??'' mmmmmmmmmmm.....greeeen

Subject: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:15:44 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Neville Ackland will be repeating his protest at the gates of Amaroo during the August event. In addition to the activities already announced, he will be hoping to present a petition to Maharaji. Details of the petition as well as a link to Neville's earlier protest are on www.ex-premie.org. Please take the time to express your support. If you know of anyone with an email address but no web access, then please email them asking them for support. Anyone with an email address but without web access can email me their details. Name, Country, and any message for Neville or Maharaji are all that's required. If you know of anyone without any internet access, please ask them if they want to support this, and email me their details. We have less than three weeks to get as many people as possible to support this, so all efforts are appreciated. John. Petition to support Neville's protest www.ex-premie.org/pages/form_petition.htm

Subject: Not August! (nt) From: It's early September To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 19:55:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: cantwaittomakemysign To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:10:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, you to can travel all the way to australia and stand like a wacko in front of the gate holding a sign. Now, instead of traveling to see M for enjoyment, learning, and pleasure, or finding something else to make you happy, you can spend the same amount of money and stand at the gate holding a sign, wallowing in your bitterness and hatred. Put down premies while they laugh at you and shake their heads sadly. Sounds like a lovely vacation...for bitter people with nothing posiitive in their lives.

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: Cynthia To: cantwaittomakemysign Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 21:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're not going to Amaroo silly, we're supporting someone who lives there. And it's not bitterness and hatred toward premies. It's an effort to get Maharaji to answer questions. Remember those, Catweasel? It's to raise awareness about Maharaji's duplicity and gee, is that why you're here? To make your comments in defense of Maharaji while we know that YOU'RE in a cult? Don't worry, nobody's going to be hurt. It's a peaceful protest. A freedom to demonstrate. Are your sensibilities being threatened? Good. It's about time.

Subject: Re: ** Support Neville's Amaroo Protest! ** From: Salam To: cantwaittomakemysign Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:19:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at least the camping is free. Plus it makes a nice free holiday.

Subject: Please sign the petition! From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:49:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, This is a great idea. I've just submitted mine twice (my mistake)--sorry. For those of you who post anonymously here, it doesn't mean that you can't come forward with your real name on this petition. This is a real opportunity to show the world what Maharaji has done and continues to do as a cult leader. I encourage everyone to sign to show that Neville Ackland is not a 'lone' protestor. Truth to Power! Cynthia, The Revolution Just Might Be Televised! Yeah

Subject: Three ideas for amaroo... From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:48:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1)A number of people talked awhile ago about a 'pro M' sounding website link that might direct premies to EPO. If premies hear abut 'ex-premie' anything, they may be inclined to avoid it. One good title was: 'Maharaji: Revealing the Truth' Maybe cards or posters could be made with that sort of title on them. 2)How about an 'Ask Maharaji a Question' sign, in which anyone can write a question to M and have it forwarded to him through Neville? All sorts of interesting things might come from that one. 3)Can anyone videotape this? A digital video tape would be easy to put on the site, and would make great watching, I'm sure. It would be priceless to see premie reactions to a protest. It could later be put into some sort of 'Michael Moore' type of 10 minute documentary for epo or other interested venues.

Subject: Its all relative.... From: AV To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:31:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: two Gurus walking on opposite banks of the Ganges; one shouts across; ' guruji..how, I beg you, do I get to the other side?? ' 'swamiji!' he replied, 'but you ARE on the other side!'

Subject: Another exs' website From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:39:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Behind the TM facade Quite interesting.

Subject: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:22:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was a time between the infamous Tucson, Arizona program and the hastily arranged Philadelphia program in 1978. M had heavied people out to the MAX at the Tucson program, telling premies he didn't want their beat up cars, he wanted their lives. He berated everyone, even telling the saintly Gurucharanand that he had wasted 2 hours of his life by watching a movie. M also said (to instructors) that because of the premies failure to propagate knowledge, all of the bad prophecies would now come true, and that he couldn't save the planet now, because of the premies failures (naturally). Premies left depressed, freaked out and distraught after this. Supposedly the program the next month in Philly was to calm things down, due to the number of premie freak outs. The reason I mention this time is because it gave me one of my early 'drips', although I probably regarded it as 'mind' creeping in at the time... What happened was that all of the instructors that were touring told everyone that it was M's 'agya' that an able bodied premie should be in the ashram, period. Extremely heavy satsang came from Alan Imbarrato,Randy Prouty,BrianMcDermott,John Hampton, John Knight, etc. etc. EVERY one of the instructors swore that Maharaji himself told them to tell the premies to move in the ashram. When this caused considerable confusion and pain, Maharaji then told the instructors that they were all confused and had told the premies to move in the ashram, AGAINST his wishes. Maharaji completely reversed himself, did a 180, and blamed the instructors for not getting his message right. One of the instrctors said that M called them all back and blamed them for giving the heavy satsang about the ashram (and thereby causing the cofusion), even though it was HIM that had authorized it.... Does anyone else remember this particulr era, especially in the USA? Just curious, not sure why I'm asking, but I do remember it being a major mind-fuck for me, because I knew an instructor pretty well, and believed her version of the story, which automatically unercut the M version....(and him)

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Mike Finch To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 08:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember it well. There was a coordinators conference right after, in a smaller theater, and the main auditorium had a Rolling Stones concert. I wanted to go to the Stones concert, and even this wish freaked me out - prefering the Stones to a privileged and small meeting with the Lord. Of course, I didn't go to the Stones, and the meeting's MC (I think it was Joe Anctil) laid into us about how we were so lucky to be with the Lord, and we should not even look at the Stone's concert audience, with their wild ways and appearance etc. Of course, I did look, and remember wondering whether I was really with the Lord, or whether these cool looking guys n gals where having a better time ? (My jumble sale suit made me look like a scarecrow - the ultimate uncool compared to the Stone's audience - and it was soo hot outside the theater a/c). This was juxtaposed with all the ashram stuff too. It was a small drip for me, although I plugged it up and soldiered on for many years. Thanks for reminding me. -- Mike

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Peter Howie To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:28:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Goes to show how different experiences can be. I had a great time (in premie terms). I was building the backstage stuff - a house bigger than the one I was livning in at home. I 'really connected' during the show - and went away more determined than ever to be dedicated etc etc etc. It wasn't a drip for me it was another weld. I remembered it for many years and projected personal connection into everthing MJ said and did.. I don't remember him dancing at Tuscon at all - must have been a later program. However we were singing the Rich Neal dancing song for a long time and at some point he got up and did the 10 finger, 'I come with full power' wand waving thingy and headed off. The storied that make up this world are remarkable. cheers peter

Subject: Yes, I remember it well From: Joe To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:17:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember the era very well. The darkest of the dark in the cult. I recall Tucson, I recall he was 'heavy' but by that point I don't think I was really listening anymore. I just learned to shut off my brain and let his rambling comments waft over me. Nothing he said was ever worth remembering anyway. I do recall 1978 as heavier than 1977, and 1979 even more so. I recall M said that if you made it through 1978 with him, you would always be with him, and that 1978 was going to be crazier than that evil, mindful, hedonistic year, 1976. Yes, I remember the era, but I didn't make the connection you did: M also said (to instructors) that because of the premies failure to propagate knowledge, all of the bad prophecies would now come true, and that he couldn't save the planet now, because of the premies failures (naturally). Who did you hear this from? I know Disculta said she 'did service' after the Tucson program for the Initiator meetings with M, and that the Initiators looked 'shell shocked' from how heavy and abusive M was in thos meetings, so this fits. This is the first time I have heard this? Details, details, please. EVERY one of the instructors swore that Maharaji himself told them to tell the premies to move in the ashram. Was it really that explicit re that ashram? I DO agree that after that program the campaign began to harass and guilt-trip every available premie into the ashrams, but this is the first time I heard that the Maharaji's directive regarding this campaign began at the Tucson program. Randy Prouty certainly told me this, and I think others did as well, but I don't recall him saying it was at Tucson that the directive was given by Maharaji. I don't recall when he said Maharaji had told him this. Premies left depressed, freaked out and distraught after this. Supposedly the program the next month in Philly was to calm things down, due to the number of premie freak outs. Really? The Phildadelphia program for for that purpose? Who told you this? That program, later in 1978, occurred as M was leaving for Europe on a tour. It was the first time he did his 'fat naked dancing' routine in the USA. It was shocking and profoundly revolting at the same time, and it would have been hysterically funny if I had actually allowed my 'mind' to look at it. When this caused considerable confusion and pain, Maharaji then told the instructors that they were all confused and had told the premies to move in the ashram, AGAINST his wishes. Really? This must have been years later, because at least through mid-1980, the ashram pressure was on full bore, and Maharaji was doing ashram meetings, including with ashram applicants, to sweeten the deal. It made the ashram premies and aspirants feel special that they got these special meetings, when the other, lower, householder premies, didn't. This was also the period of extreme fundraising pressure on the ashrams, many darshan lines with pressure to give money, and the raising money for the 'world tour' which really was his big plane. One of the instrctors said that M called them all back and blamed them for giving the heavy satsang about the ashram (and thereby causing the cofusion), even though it was HIM that had authorized it.... Can you say who said this? I think this is SO important for these people to come forward and talk about this. It really would help a lot of people. Why can't they say this publicly?

Subject: please answer this question, la-ex! From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:29:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi la-ex, a while back you wrote a post where you mentioned that Maharaji had once said that a person can meditate on the Knowledge and still perform 'immoral acts' - or something like that. Can you remember when/where he said this, and what the context was? You said he probably said it to justify whatever it was he was up to at the time... Anyway, more info on this would be appreciated, as it would help to clarify things even more. Thanks Love, Livia

Subject: Screw you guru's wife OK From: Jean-Michel To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:21:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rawat senior (or some other authority I don't remember) wrote somewhere that a good diciple can screw his guru's wife and still be OK. My question is why would a guru's wife want to be involved with a mere mortal?

Subject: Re: Screw your guru's wife OK From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JM Might the reference be from epo as follows: Paravrajita Ma Yogashakti, in her commentary, says that, I quote: 'Yoni Mudra is the most important and secret of all practices. Although all the secret practices of yoga are mentioned in the yogic literature, people do not pay heed to them.' How great value is attached to this practice is explained in stanzas 37-38 (these are quite funny): 'Yoni Mudra is the most secret and is unapproachable even to Devas. It is advantageous even if it is practiced only once a day. Samadhi is attained by him who practices and masters it well. Sin does not stain him who practices Yoni Mudra, even if he be a murderer of a Brahmin, destroyer of a baby in a womb, intoxicator or has indulged with his Guru's wife.' Perhaps this is why Rawat never taught Yoni Mudra?! roflol :) Beyond Sin? www.ex-premie.org/papers/medtech.htm#YONI

Subject: Re: Screw your guru's wife OK From: Vicki To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:26:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is it? Yoni Mudra www.healthlibrary.com/reading/yoga/yonimud.htm

Subject: One thing Rawat's learned OK From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:14:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, thats' the quote I was refering to !! Thanks.

Subject: I meant 'your' guru's wife ! From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:22:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry !!

Subject: Re: please answer this question, la-ex! From: la-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:40:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia- I don't remember the exact quote or program where M made the statement about the knowledge/morality issue, but here goes: I know it was in LA sometime in the mid or late 80's.....it was a one day program I believe.... M was having a flirtatious exchange with some new female premie who asked him if she could come up to the residence for tea....M was putting on a sort of charm and told her after a while that 'she was making him nervous, as he was a married man'.....of course, this brought the house down with laughter as M honed his skills on being a part time comedian....personally, I thought it was hilarious, but little did I know that M was having lots of affairs by that time, and that his entire schtick about maintaining fidelity in his marriage was a crock of shit... Somewhere in his rambling monologe he mentioned that the experience of knowledge had nothing to do with morality, and that someone could be doing something quite immoral, and still be experiencing knowledge... He added that that particular nugget of wisdom was sure to 'blow a lot of concepts'.... Looking back on it, I see him as taking about himself more than anything.....

Subject: to La-ex: morality and knowledge From: Livia To: la-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:46:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, la-ex. So according to M, knowledge has nothing to do with morality, and someone could be doing something quite immoral and still be experiencing knowledge. Well that just about says it all in my book. And for that I suppose I'd be seen by premies as being 'stuck in my concepts'. I seem to remember Maharaji saying years ago that if you were experiencing knowledge you couldn't do anything bad (for want of a better word) because you were in a place of truth, consciousness and bliss. But now it appears that 'experiencing knowledge' has no bearing on your behaviour. This would then explain why premies are capable of so much infidelity (causing pain), scamming, wheeler-dealing and all the rest of it. It would also go some way towards explaining why premies are so comfortable with the lies that accompany the revisionism. So what, I wonder is knowledge exactly, in Maharaji's book? If it isn't spiritual, if it doesn't necessarily make you into a better or more moral person, what exactly is its apparent value over and beyond making you feel 'good'? Is it now a sort of Prozac without popping a pill? And if it isn't that, then how? After all, Prozac apparently makes you feel really good, but it aint spiritual and doesn't modify your behaviour. It's something that makes you feel good but doesn't go as far as making you give a toss about anyone else, which seems to be the size of knowledge-lite. While I'm on the subject of appalling quotations, how about the idea of us compiling a list of dubious ones? I was talking to an ex on the phone just now who told me Maharaji's philosophy on neighbours, and believe me, it aint nice. And I'm sure it raised some guffaws of laughter, as his 'not nice' quotes usually do. Ho-hum. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: to La-ex: morality and knowledge From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:30:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wasn't there the one about how if you were in holy name, you could drive through traffic at 100 miles an hour without hitting anything? circa 73/74 vintage I believe. And Central hall about 'this Knowledge is sooo perfect that wherever it hits it makes that perfect also'.... well I guess that's OK then.

Subject: A few more, Livia.. From: La-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:14:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember M once explaining why you couldn't treat everyone as your self, according to christian values (basic 'golden rule' stuff), and his example was that if he did try to treat his neighbors like he would treat himself, he would have to buy all of them rolls royces as well, and he wasn't about to! (actually, WE would have been paying for all of those rolls for the neighbors, with him getting the credit..) This is a clean version of the old Rodney Dangerfield story in which Rodney said he couldn't treat his neighbor like himself, because that would mean he would have to jerk off his neighbor as well, which he didn't relish doing..... An interesting thing a premie told me about a year ago shed some light on this knowledge/morality debate... He said that M had said recently that he didn't teach people how to be spiritual, but 'how to get in touch with themselves', and this 'baggage free' version of knowledge was good because all of those 'morality concepts' that were gone, unlike other paths....

Subject: This explains his mentality beautifully, La-ex... From: Cynthia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:53:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I remember M once explaining why you couldn't treat everyone as your self, according to christian values (basic 'golden rule' stuff), and his example was that if he did try to treat his neighbors like he would treat himself, he would have to buy all of them rolls royces as well, and he wasn't about to! (actually, WE would have been paying for all of those rolls for the neighbors, with him getting the credit..) What a mentality--I never heard that one. Was he serious or was it meant as a joke? The Golden Rule Maharaji style. Man, he is so shallow when it's low tide his head's still under water and that's where the water meets the sand. Phew!

Subject: more odd quotes From: AV To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:00:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what was that in his satsang where he said something along the lines of?: 'you don't just wake up one day, buy yourself a Rolex and say 'I'm a Master' (((((!!!!!!!))))))

Subject: Re: more odd quotes From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:17:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No, you wake up one day, decide you're a Master, then spend a while convincing people you're the master they've been waiting for, then tell them you need lots of money to spread the thing you're teaching, then siphon off large portions of the money to buy yourself more Rolex's than you could have ever dreamt of. No, it doesn't happen overnight, but with perseverance you get there in the end. Ever hear of the man who set up a totally phony cult, just to see how many followers he could amass? He found loads! Anyone with a bit of on-stage charisma could do it. Livia

Subject: Re: more odd quotes From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:07:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: mmmmmmmmmm... A

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Vicki To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:13:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was at this program. I can't remember these particulars. I do remember Daya being a small baby, and Marolyn holding her on stage when all the music was going. He didn't dance and so she later asked him why. 'Because you didn't ask me' was the reply. She recounted this in her satsang on stage the next night. So she asked and he danced that night. I just remember going hoping something magical and earth shattering would happen to me in darshan but it didn't. I remember looking around thinking everyone but me must be having some great experience at the program.

Subject: Re: Does anyone remember this time(1978?) From: Carlos - To la-ex To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:28:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At that point in my life I hung out with instructers regularly. Yet I never heard about the caos you are talking about. And I was at Tuscon, driving vips who needed transport aroung, including instructers. I was at every discourse M gave there. And I didn't hear any of the heavy, negative stuff you ascribe to him. Nor do I understand why you call it an infamous event. Hell, it was a nice program, but it wasn't speccial in either a positive OR negative way, IMO. Certainly there wasn't any talk different in kind to the kind from what happens after ANY event in the 3 communities I was in for 2 or 3 days, or in my home community, during the 6 months afterwards.

Subject: To Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:42:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Carlos, You know, I appreciate your opinion that I am welcome to post on LG, but frankly, I'm not wanted there. I know you won't comment on what you think about the particular individual(s) I posted to, but having a limitation on the subject matter is too close to censorship, IMO. I have no intention of posting there, and I hadn't read that board in a couple of weeks...it's pretty boring to me. I find that it's very strange that those who believe in Maharaji and consider themselves his students are still looking for other ways to satisfy themselves. I don't understand that. Also strange to me is when certain posters there link posts to known cults, such as Enkankar, EST, etc. I'm not ranting on you here, and thank you for your support, but I think you misunderstand me. I have a wonderful husband, four wonderful sisters, a great Mom, a cat, a house filled with plants, which is one of my hobbies, an aquarium, and I live on a dead end private road in the Green Mountains of one the most beautiful and pristine places in this country. It's so quiet here all I hear are animals and birds. Just the other day Tom and I were outside and heard what sounded like a baby crying, but really loud (and a bit different). Well, it turns out the black bear who lives near us is a Mom. Bear cubs who cry for their mothers sound eerily like a baby, but very large. I've haven't seen the bear and don't want to knowing now that there are cubs involved, but I've heard it barking to it's cubs. I see beautiful hawks and am waiting for some Ospreys which I know nest in this area, as well as a pack of grey wolves. I hear all kinds of animals every day. And I have no real complaints in life. Sure times get tough, but I'm a survivor and my husband is my best friend and wonderful to me: since 1981! And I do talk about the things I in life that make me happy. For instance, gray squirrels. When we moved up to Vermont from Connecticut in 1988, there were only red squirrels. Over the years the more large, and bold gray squirrels have migrated up here. We love to feed birds and we get a huge variety of georgous ones but these gray squirrels have been incorrigable in raiding our feeders. Tom wanted to shoot them, but I talked him out of it--as did one of our friends (plus, I don't like guns in the house). So we got a 'have-a-heart' trap and he's been relocating the squirrels farther away from any housing and deeper into the woods where they have plenty to eat (they have plenty here, but what's better than fresh birdfeed)?:) One night Tom made the mistake of leaving the trap out (don't want to be catching any skunks!) and I was up late and heard some commotion and shined a flashlight out one of our large windows overlooking the yard toward the forest and there were two racoons, younguns' raiding the baited trap. It was hilarious...the more I shined the flashlight on them, they looked at me as if to say 'thanks for the food.' One shoved it's plump body all the way into the trap but it's hind legs were sticking out of the trap. So it's simple things like that that make me happy. I am not about to be restricted by LG as to what I say, and after reading LG yesterday, it appears that certain folks there are still talking about how terrible us ex-premies are and blaming US for THEIR behavior...so, thanks but no thanks. Besides, there is one particular individual there who ripped me a new one, calling me scum among other things this person knows nothing about. That individual is not a nice person at all...this was yesterday after I made one small sarcastic remark, for which I apologized...sooo...it's best I stay away...and not even read the stuff there, because, as I said, they are still talking about things other than "Life being so great.'' Best, Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:16:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think I misunderstand you. I just happen to feel that if you could ignore Catweasel, Deb and the DR (cause I think you've had problems with all 3 of them, not just the 2 you chose not to name; in this kind of thing I don't feel anonymity is an issue, but if respecting that was why you chose not to name them, why, good for you! Respectful behaviour is always a plus, IMO.) I do regret the problems you've had with them, and, if I thought I could influence tyhem some way other than by example I'd try to do so. No, I think you'd help raise the tone of the joint thru the on topic posts I believe you could write if you cared to. And I don't think having a focus, a particular topic the BB has chosen to have is anywhere near censorship. It's just the focus CD, LG's owner, thinks is worth the time and work that being a BB operater involves. Perhaps I can make my view clear this way. You'd agree with me that JHB's putting only anti-M stuff on EPO is OK, wouldn't you? He has no obligation to put anti Scientology stuff there, or pro-M stuff. That isn't the purpose of the site. His putting stuff there with a pretty narrow (1 topic, and only from 1 slant)focus, is TOTALLY OK because that is the purpose of that site. Same thing with LG; CD feels that perspective on life is worth sharing and promoting, and that is why the BB is still there. I agree with you that some of the links seem pretty stange things for premies to put there. But few premies who post there seem to have the single pointed focus I do.

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:22:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just read another of Deborah's posts in response to my last one on LG in which I apologized for disrupting your LG forum. It's quite nasty and completely off the wall as far as understanding what I say. I replied point by point and was ready to push the post button and stopped myself. I said, no, I'm not getting sucked into her inability to be civil and her convoluted black and white thinking. And I certainly don't want to elicit another diatribe toward me--no way. I take responsibilty for setting her off by posting one sarcastic phrase twice: Yup, you're an Angel, Deborah. I know she hates me to her core and I provoked her. She's a very confused person IMO. I don't hate her. I pity her. You know, Carlos, I find it quite humourous that you would say that I've had problems with Deborah, Roupel and Catweasel. Catweasel has been an anonymous troll here for years. Roupell revealed his real name, but not before he came here for quite some time posting under fake names and causing a lot of disruption. Just last week he lost his temper so he hasn't stopped coming here to abuse and reveal his true nature, which is quite nasty--he has his justifications just as the others do. You seem to imply that it's just me having 'problems with these people.'' That a joke, Carlos. They started coming here long before LG ever existed and LG was set up by an Ex-Premie! Don't you see that? Btw, I mention their names now because you guessed correctly who I was speaking about. I didn't omit their names out of respect because I certainly do not have any respect for those individuals, nor feel the least bit inclined to protect them. And protect them from what? They're here all the time, except Deborah who may be reading, but is blocked. Why would I ever want to protect people who constantly abuse me every time I post over there? Quite the contrary, Carlos, I wanted to protect those exes here from any of them who might come here in retaliation for what I posted over there so you kind of blew it for me.:( I didn't want the exes here to be subjected to their sick rendition of fun and games. Frankly I have never seen such meaness since I left bio-Dad. And that's who Ms. Deborah reminds me of, sad but true. Maybe that's why she tempts me when I read her very confused posts; perhaps I just can't resist becoming angry or sarcastic. I'll have to consult my friend, Doktor Freud about this. Plus, I wanted to respond to your post to me on LG, but not there. Hence, the purpose of this OT conversation here. I also don't find any sense of purpose at LG other than to be a chatroom for premies or pwks, whatever you folks are called now. The purpose of EPO is to reveal the facts about Maharaji's life and what he's done with his devotees. The purpose of this forum is to talk about our experiences being former devotees of Maharaji. I and others have posted many things about cults right here. On EPO there are links to cult awareness sites, but EPO's purpose is not to discuss cults in general. One is quite enough to handle and we have first hand experience. So that's about it. I'm very glad I didn't post again on LG. I don't have time in my life for it. Oh, one more thing, Carlos. Why don't you tell Deborah, Catweasal, and Roupel about what you really think about how they treat people? Why not? Are you afraid of them? Cynthia

Subject: Re: To Carlos (OT) From: Carlos - To Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 04:44:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1st, sorry I 'blew it' for you. That possibility just didn't occur to me. 2nd, I know they have tangled with others. 3rd, I never thought you were protecting their anonymity out of respect for THEM. I thought respect for the principal of anonymity was possible. 4th, I know LG was started by Sir D, with a different name and approach - but he passed it on to Chris. And it is now as it is now, not as Sir D envisioned it. Finally, perhaps the biggest thing for me to respond to. I behave the way I do because of where I am right now. In the 1st 6 years I was with my 2nd wife, a lot of the lessons about life I learned had to do with not stirring up shit to no purpose. Her son was ADD complicated by what is called 'oppositional and defiant disorder (ODD). He saw I gave his mom enogh backing that she could (and did) start standing up to him. He also thought I was stealing her love for him away from him, which was nonsense but a very real fear of his. He acted out in terrible ways. Destroyed a fax machine of mine. Beat up a dented fender of one of my cars with his aluminum baseball bat when his being dramatic by threatening me with it didn't work. Destroyed closths of mine, mostly shirts. All that was in the 1st year. It got better after that, but he was touchy till he died. I learned to tty and pick my battles. The lesson was reinforced for me in the what? 8 months or so I've been posting here, on AG turned Symp or on LG. I let Jim get under my skin way to often. And just like with my late step-son, to oppose his will guarenteed escalation. So I don't confront them cause I waste energy stirring shit up where it isn't likely to do any good only when someone gets under my skin, pushes MY buttons. I working on it, just like you refraining from posting your response to Deb. But I don't think either of us exercises restraint (when we suceed in doing so) because of fear of anyone. I know I don't. And I'd be VERRRRY suprised if you do.

Subject: Thanks Carlos (OT) From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your honest answer Carlos. I didn't know about your step-son--I've very sorry you had to go through that. So I don't confront them cause I waste energy stirring shit up where it isn't likely to do any good only when someone gets under my skin, pushes MY buttons. I working on it, just like you refraining from posting your response to Deb. But I don't think either of us exercises restraint (when we suceed in doing so) because of fear of anyone. I know I don't. And I'd be VERRRRY suprised if you do. You've hit the nail on the head with this one. There are times when I don't exercise restraint especially with my swearing and sarcasm. Unless it's done in jest, sarcasm is simply another passive-aggressive exercise in futility. And without tone of voice, swearing (especially by me) could very easily taken the wrong way. My own husband tells me I have a potty mouth too much sometimes:) He tells me it's ''very unbecoming.'' I should listen to Tom more, he's a wisened 50 year old, never been a premie. As for people getting under my skin, well, you're correct on that one too--with regard to Deborah. So I do want to try to exercise restraint and be less aggressive and definitely less negatively sarcastic. After all, it started over one, five word sentence! Not worth it. Sooo...I want to bring this particular discussion to an end now. Have a great weekend, Carlos. It's a picture perfect day--low 70s, no humidity, and bright--a #12 on the Vermont weather rating scale, which only goes from 1 to 10.... Cynthia

Subject: accepted. Best wishes. [nt] From: Carlos - To Cynthia - End of discussion To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 14:58:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Tucson is a blurr for me... From: Cynthia To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:51:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only remember being very hot, I remember beautiful sunsets and kissing his feet, but I cannot remember his satsang there--but I was recovering from a horribly failed relationship--I'm not naming the boyfriend anymore. I was not in the ashram yet but at Philly program I ate his performance up whole. Actually, quite the opposite to what Susan said below, his Philly performance brought me deeper into my belief he was Lord Incarnate and I couldn't understand why anyone who was single would NOT join the ashram. So I did. If I remember correctly, Maharaji stated quite clearly on the last night of his performance in Philadelphia that He was the Lord first person singular. I can't seem to find it on a tape, I might have written the words down in my gopi journal, but his satsang on the last night blew me right into gopi-ism. I'll try to find the quote. I might be mistaken about it being at that particular program in Philadelphia when he stated he was GOD but for some reason I remember it being there. Just a few weeks before that, we had a regional retreat at Quinnipiac College in Hamden, Connecticut. Hartford, New Haven, NY, NJ, Providence, RI premies attended along with several initiators. There was a phone feed I believe from Patterson, or maybe M himself to the retreat and elsewhere around the country, announcing the Philadelphia program. By then, I had totally submerged myself in devotion and meditation so I felt completely resolved of that bad relationship and was eager to get into the ashram. After all, it was the advice of Charanand to my 'boyfriend' to surrender completely to Maharaji, end the relationship and forget about life outside the cult.

Subject: the retreat From: janet To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 03:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how odd. i should remember that retreat. i was in new haven, getting more pregnant by the day, from early summer 78 until late august, when i codged planefare from the father of my baby in order to get back to denver before the due date. the father stayed behind in new haven to see the philly program and then rejoined me out in denver. maybe the retreat happened after i flew off. we were on the east coast for the day of the tuscon program, listend to it by phone feed. but the retreat you speak of, I have no recollection of it. and i should, since i was in new haven and hamden and branford and parts surrounding.

Subject: Been part of organizers' conf From: Jean-Michel To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that happened after the Tucson program (I attended). I'm having a hard time remembering details. I was surprised being invited, and was living in the ashram at that time.

Subject: yep From: Susan To: La-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:27:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was one of the 'freak outs'. Actually, in Philly was my fnal freak out, when he came out in the Mala. I just looked around and saw a cult instead of brothers and sisters and a very dumb weird scary cult leader doing an embarassing dance. But all you say is true. I heard all about that and I was in the Ashram at that point, though I think my drips turned to a rainfall the day I joined the Ashram and saw how nuts it all was.

Subject: A conversation with a student From: TXP To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 04:30:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Travelling around Somerset(UK) last month, I met a 'student' of Maharaji's who told me he recived knowledge in the early 90s. He told me that he made 3 promises to prem when recieving knowledge from prem himself directly, to give it a good attempt not to reveal the techniques to anyone to keep in touch He also told me that Maharaji told him not to speak to old premies. When I suggested that it sounded like Maharaji didn't want the new students to know his past, this student told me that he liked revisionism. Also when I asked this student if they would reveal the techniqies to someone, he said he would. Not much devotion there. Seems like Maharaji is keeping all the older premies to keep his coffers cashed up. Keep up the donations oldies.It pays for your ticket to heaven. TXP

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Livia To: TXP Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:23:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: God that's so weird, Maharaji telling the new premies not to talk to the old premies. I've heard about this before. For a start, it's somewhat insulting to old premies - the implication that they're not worth talking to, ostensibly because they're stuck in their concepts or whatever. (But who planted those concepts there in the first place, huh?) I mean, how else would a gullible and eager new premie read this? If he/she has just received Knowledge they've just been watching loads of videos, listened to loads of spin, and are going to be well primed. The reality, though, is obviously a lot murkier. For the sake of his credibility with the newer premies, Maharaji must wish the past had never happened, hence his telling premies to destroy all the old publications etc. How naive, to think that they would! What I don't understand is how premies don't see the blatant dishonesty and covering up that's going on here. And the irony is that if he had come out and said that he was mistaken in the past, due to his upbringing, culture, conditioning and all the rest of it, but that the Knowledge was still worth practicing as a good, effective ancient meditation, and that he would still be happy to be our teacher - well, who knows what would have happened? Probably nothing like the mass exodus that is occurring today. Honesty, Maharaji, is always the best policy, and this is something that you clearly fail to see. Livia

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Bolly To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 03:47:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all If he said he was mistaken, but the meditation was OK? Have been thinking about this, along the lnes of meditation being so alien to your average westerner, that it has served to divert us from things we normally engage in, as a means of improving situations. How often when things are a bit difficult have others castigated themselves with the thought 'it's because I don't meditate enough'. How many hours are lost in a premies life to the feeling 'I should be meditating'? He could come round to my place and personally apologise and I still wouldn't have those moments from my life back. I also doubt that frequent meditation is an aspect of any Eastern mystical life, to be practised as part of a calorie controlled lifestyle. More when my arms are not aching, love Bolly

Subject: to Bolly From: AV To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:43:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, your post certainly rung true; I think it's STILL such a knee-jerk reflex for me to 'go inside' when the going gets tough: the result of years of this have tended to make me want to back away from actually dealing with situations /obstacles/challenges, because 'it's just this crazy world', as a consequence in mid life, I'm just starting to learn what it means to be strong, to see situations through with a semblance of attention to detail, to be more open with regular people that I would have considered 'too gross'.....it's so ironic that K, which we believed would unite beings in a common thread of love, has in so many instances caused division, separation and social isolation. (I haven't forgotten our date with a tea-bag btw, not a good time at the moment, take care xx):0) AV

Subject: Re: A conversation with a student From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:52:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, so don't talk to the old premies from this day forward? Have I got that right? Who but the 'old' premies were devoted enough to pay for the outrageous Vision subscriptions for the aspirants to watch? -Or the rent of the hall, etc? -Or the printing of schedules and invitations? -Or the instructor tours? Or spent their unpaid time in what amounted to part time jobs coordinating all this hoopla either by being community coordinators or the person who cleaned the hall or did the calling, or or or or.....the list goes on. 'Old premies' indeed! Maharaji should shut up and tell the new people that he owes his entire fortune, standard of living, and position of flying Captain to the 'Old premies'. He was nothing when he came to this country financially or statistic wise.

Subject: Re: A conversation with an idiot From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:32:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, One time gmj said to his devotees in the early nineties, that they were a, 'Bunch of burnt cookies' and that he intended to 'bake a new batch of cookies.' You would have to be such an idiot to ever listen this asshole. There is no sanity involved with following such an obvious jerk as maharaji. It defies all reason. Low self esteem? Is that it?

Subject: Re: A conversation with an idiot From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall. Jesus Christ almighty, who in God's name burnt the cookies then? Cookies don't exactly go and burn themselves without some source of heat there somewhere. Mind you, he's still happy to take donations from burnt cookies. Has he ever tried to explain that? Weird, huh? Love, Livia

Subject: Maharaji has no Gratitude... From: Cynthia To: Marshall Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:04:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marshall and all, So the fatboy doesn't want new premies talking to old premies, eh? Well what a slap in the face! Was it not the so-called 'old premies' who built his empire for him, working for free, donating huge sums of cash so he could live an oppulent life? Well, that does it! I'm never speaking to him again!:) What an asshole he is...

Subject: See you in 50,000 years From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 00:42:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The KEO Project Leave a 4 page message for your remote grand grand grand ... children!! I'm fascinated by this stuff...

Subject: It begs the question From: Sir Dave To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:53:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why 50,000 years? Civilised man has only been around for 10,000 or more years. Certainly not 50k years. I would have thought just 1,000 years would have been enough. I mean, after a few millennia, who's going to understand our (by then) ancient languages?

Subject: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:20:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Note: Neville posted this on F8 and I thought it would get much more exposure here for ideas and responses: Hi, it’s Neville Ackland back online and preparing for a “one man” protest at I.R.C.C. For ex’s who didn’t read John MacGregor’s report on my sign waving protest at the I.R.C.C. front gate in April, here’s an update… On the last afternoon of the three day event, as nearly 3,000 premies left the site, I held protest signs proclaiming MAHARAJI MASTER OF DECEIT: LIAR, COWARD, FOOL. I DARE YOU TO FACE ME IN OR OUT OF COURT...MAHARAJI I GAVE YOU MY HEART YOU BROKE IT AND DIDN’T CARE. The objective was to embarrass Maharaji and callenge him to confront his critics. Also to increase awareness amongst premies that accusations are being made. The protest was very successful. The police and local government authorities have become more involved and are well informed and I’ve made contact with more locals. Extensive leafleting and graffiti in Peak Crossing and Ipswich (despite being a jailable offence) reminded everyone that all is not well at I.R.C.C. Maharaji is attending an event from 3-7 August 2002. This time I intend to be there “with bells on” every day. Press releases and flyers are almost complete. Documentation is arriving regarding Ipswich council’s complicity in the deception and cover-up that Maharaji has perpetrated at I.R.C.C. THE “HAVE YOUR SAY” COMPETITION Sign making has become a way of life – I’ve completed quite a few. I’m looking for ideas and invite all ex-premies to enter the competition (for the best sign) and post it here as soon as possible. The criteria are: the message should be directed at Maharaji, not premies; and 10 – 15 words to fit on a 1 metre x 1 metre sign. You supply the words and if your entry is judged the winner not only will it be displayed prominently at I.R.C.C. you will also receive a beautifully bound copy of the 75 page press release complete with photos of the demonstration and YOUR SIGN! If there are enough entries there may be a second and third prize. SO, COME ON, GET YOUR MESSAGE IN PRINT. I’ll include a copy of all entries posted here and any expressions of support and include them in the press release and on the information table (with your permission). At ground zero on 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 August my intention is to represent as many ex-premies as possible including, I assume, those who have moved on and won’t find out about the protest in the near future. To protest corporate greed by waving signs and chanting slogans is easy compared to protesting directly in front of old friends and associates who at best no longer wantto have anything to do with you and at worst feel deep resentment towards you. The repercussions for the protester go far beyond the I.R.C.C. front gate confrontation, especially when many ex’s are hurt or upset in ways that make confrontation extremely difficult. Historically, cult leaders’ corruption has been finally exposed by the media and government investigation with information provided by ex-members of those cults. Seldom have ex-members blockaded HQ enmass, attracted the media and forced the villain to admit his sins. It just doesn’t happen like that. By protesting as a lone protester and representing ex-premies both formally and more impact rather than being dismissed as “just one disenchanted sect member”. Although I can’t divulge logistics or details on the scale of the protest, I can assure the ex-premies I represent that it will be peaceful and I will abide by the law. I’m indignant, not angry. So I am confident I can be relied upon to conduct myself responsibly. Once again, thanks to those who have helped boost my self-esteem (an essential ingredient when cooking up a plot like this). And girls…have patience… I’m having more photos developed post haste. Oh, by the way Tantra – was that clothed or unclothed, with the sign or without the sign? Can you be more specific? Happy days! Neville.

Subject: Can anyone explain the... From: la-ex To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:36:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ipswich Council's part in the IRCC coverup, or misuse of the amaroo property, if there is one? Very curious...

Subject: Neville Ackland knows... From: Cynthia To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:39:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but I don't. Maybe you can find out what his email address through Gerry?? I get the impression that Neville doesn't want to reveal too much on the internet about this aspect of IRCC. Cynthia

Subject: Re: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: An Aspirant To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 03:59:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here is the card I would wave, were I able to attend. 'I'm an aspirant. Knowledge is Free. Why am I not allowed in?' Is there something I'm not supposed to know? Like the local videos I used to attend that were for people with what was called 'knowledge' back then. I was only able to attend videos for aspirants and introduction videos. Come on, I mean we all know Maharaji (oops, sorry) Prem Rawat, will sit in a chair and allow the people who have already received the gift of 'self-knowledge' to line up and kiss his ass (oops, sorry) feet. We all know what goes on, it is nothing different than any event except for the foot kissing. So why are aspirants not allowed to come and listen to their 'Perfect Master'? Here's another card: 'What have you got to hide? Come out here and talk to your ex-followers.' Chicken shit, slushee vendor. I am sure security will be stepped up a notch. Best of luck, Cynthia.

Subject: Sorry but... From: LogicDoc To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:41:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's merely a matter of logistics. There are over 17000 aspirants and many more uncounted in Asia minor. There simply isn't room to have an event open to all pwk and aspirants. The Ampitheatre only holds 5000 at present. All the deluxe tents were booked within a week and now all the pioneer tents have gone so, for aspirants it's a matter of patience. But hey - knowing that won't stop your 'witty' vitriole will it? ;) Doc - waiting with extreme patience for complete 'ex'odus to F8

Subject: This isn't witty but From: Sir Dave To: LogicDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 16:49:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to comment on what you wrote, Doctor, because it's quite laughable. All that land out there in Amaroo and there's not enough space to squeeze in an extra 12,000 people? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Did you know, that the whole of the world's population could quite comfortably fit onto the Isle of Wight (near Portsmouth, England)? That's a fact.

Subject: yea, ha ha dave From: Doosiedoc To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 23:14:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think you were that silly.... Read Cat's post again, I couldn't be bothered dealing with such idiocy

Subject: Dead right it isn't witty Sir Goof From: RealDoc To: Doosiedoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 23:55:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Only mad dogs and Englishmen would attempt to camp in South East Queensland with absolutely no facilities to accomodate them.... Like the brave knight I suppose? By the way...who's pretending to be me (above) ?? Please desist, they're confused enough over here already! ;)

Subject: That's nonsense and you know it From: Sir Dave To: RealDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 06:53:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All it needs is a few more portaloos, a few big tents, just like the old ''festivals'' in Florida. What about Woodstock, eh? We are stardust...

Subject: You are so thick From: BadenPowellDoc To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 22:18:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on the ground in dear old England. Very crowded. So it may seem an easy solution for a huge place like Oz - to just plonk a whole bunch of people on a big campsite for a festival a la Woodstock. But it ain't! Woodstock was private property for starters. As is Glastonbury. They tried that style of event and then asked the council if they could expand the numbers for the next one. NO. Things at publicly listed conference centres have to be totally legit and up to scratch with all local Government requirements. And man, they can be petty!! Only because it's them that gets sued if something goes wrong in their jurisidiction. Oh, by the way - thanks for the subtle link to the Brit websites the other day - I was err...'distracted' for some time ;)

Subject: Pervert! From: Sir Dave To: BadenPowellDoc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 03:25:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That link was purely for educational purposes. There was no need for you to go to the homepage and see all those pics. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: The more you eat the more you.......... From: Cat To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:14:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Dave Another 12,000 people are a huge legal responsibility in Oz. The Organizers would have to be able to idicate a viable effluent programme(ie Where would all that doodoo go over 5 days, what water would be available, what food,and what shelter is provided. Covered by statute..Local Goverment Act) If population increase is not a problem why not just let the Chunnel refugees all in and let the old dart start to resemble the Empire it once was - at home!! Infrastructure Dave, Infrastructure!

Subject: Re: Sorry but... From: An Aspirant To: LogicDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 05:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THanx for the logistical analysis. I am glad that there is someone out there that is 'in their mind' and able to statisticly and quantitatively answer my question regarding the fact that aspirants are not welcome. Now for the second half of the question: What is there to hide? Is it the foot kissing thing I have heard so much about? Patiently awaiting your logical answer.

Subject: Not hidden, just personal. From: Davodoc To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There's no protocol set. My youngest daughter met M a few months ago in the line. She looked at him and said 'hello'. No more. She said it was just really beautiful to be able to get that close and personal. It's not a hidden secret, just very special and accorded special treatment. It couldn't be more respectful of the privacy or each individual. I know when I start getting close to him I become less interested in what's around and , frankly, the less distractions the better at that time. I think the little meeting we each have with him is managed very sensitively and sensibly by all concerned. I have a lot of respect for the people who help organise all that stuff while the rest of us are larking about the Pavilion like we're at Bultlins Holiday camp. Hope you get to go there some day Asp, it's a pretty cool place for a party. :)

Subject: Keep Spinning your stuff, Doc...:D From: Cynthia To: Davodoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:56:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No protocol! I just love your posts now. You are doing good work here. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, DOC...I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME READING YOUR POSTS!!!:D Please don't go away.... Cynthia

Subject: Re: Sorry but... From: Vicki To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:00:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, if you buy into this statistical excuse, then that would mean when you do receive knowledge, there still won't be room for you at Amaroo. NO, the reason you aren't let in is simple. You will see and hear and do things that were never told or shown to you in the velvet covered videos you are watching now as an aspirant. Once you have knowledge, that's it. You'll get to go and kiss the feet of this person who claims never to have claimed being the lord. So why would anyone want to kiss someone's feet if they are just an average teacher of self knowledge techniques? Feet kissing has been going on since he arrived on western soil. Watch some very old videos. Ask some 'old premies' if you have the courage. They have them stashed or better yet, ask some old ex'ers. The perfect master's feet are supposed to be lotus, as in above the maya of this world whilst standing in it. They are supposed to be the source of all love. Read the words to arti. Arti is also sung at Amaroo. They don't want you to read the words until you have gone through knowledge session and supposedly understand that Maharaji while having to claim being merely an ordinary human being, is more than the average human being. Good luck. Be prepared to have your life hijacked for the next thirty years.

Subject: Not allowed in? From: Cynthia To: An Aspirant Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 09:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Aspirant, I certainly hope you know that if you still are aspiring to get Knowledge or self-K, you're in the process of entering a cult. Is there something I'm not supposed to know? Oh yes, there's a lot Rawat doesn't want you to know. And that's the process of indoctrination. First you see 'introductory videos,' then you express a 'desire for Self-K' so you're allowed to view aspirant videos. You're not allowed to go to Amaroo because there is a so-called secret about who Rawat's followers think he is, and that's the Lord Incarnate. That's why they kiss his feet and give him their money. Don't worry about me, I'm not going to Australia. I wouldn't pay one tiny penny to see that creep, even if I could afford the trip. I simply placed this post here from F8, so that it would get more exposure for ex-premies to give Neville Ackland some responses... That said, I highly suggest you read Ex-Premie.Org (EPO). The link is at the top of this page. I was a 70s premie and lived in an ashram, then I worked for Maharaji at his secret DECA project, which was launched because he wanted his own airplane. I worked in the Design Dept. so I spoke with and saw Maharaji every day. He's nothing special, believe me, and you can get meditation techniques elsewhere that are much more effective than the ones he claims to own. But, if you do want the Maharaji/Knowledge techniques, they are also on EPO. They're not ''revealed'' there just there. You can learn them by just looking at the page which has pictures and avoid getting involved in a personality worship cult, which is simply what Maharaji runs. The other piece about not being allowed in is that Maharaji likes to create a aura of mystery about himself, thereby making aspirants think there is something extra special about this secret...an aspirant might go further into the cult in order to be allowed in...so they can find out the mystery about ''not being allowed in'' and becoming a full-blown cult member. I advise you to be very cautious in your aspirations with Maharaji. It is a cult and a very bad one at that. Save yourself a lot of grief and go elsewhere for meditation. Self-Knowledge is not the panacea to life which Maharaji says it is. When I was an aspirant in 1975 I attended my first Hans Jayanti Festival in Florida (the celebration of Maharaji's father and dead Perfect Master- November 9th) and back then aspirants were allowed to do the foot kissing thing. It's pretty creepy, don't you think, to find a teacher who wants adoration and his feet kissed, or being bowed down to (pranam in Hindi). And, belive me, it's never free. Best of luck to you, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont USA

Subject: Re: CALLING ALL EX-PREMIES From: Observer To: Cynthia-Repost from F8 Neville Ackland Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 12:06:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 3,000 people had a great ol' time and you waved a sign. Woo woo.

Subject: The Front Row Looms. From: AJW To: Observer Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:12:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 3000, 2999, 2998, 2997, 2996, 2995, 2994, 2993, 2992, 2991, 2990, 2989,... You'll soon be on the front row Observer. Hang on in there. Anth, this must be the silver lining.

Subject: Big deal Observer From: TXP To: Observer Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 04:36:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The very Rev Moon has more than 3000 cheering him as did Adoph Hitler. Face it, your in acult just like Saibaba and tha jKare Krishnas who are now being exposed for the abusers they are. In spite of prem's revisionism the trith will be out. Now go back and bury your heads in the sand. TXP

Subject: 3,000 People.... From: Cynthia To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 15:01:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...worshipping a conman and a fraud. I pity your closed eyes and conscience. Kiss his feet or bow before him, sing devotional songs like Arti. Give money to support Maharaji's narcissistic, mega-egotistical, selfish, and insatiable desire for living the oppulent life... And one hero speaking out against this fraud. I call Neville courageous, a hero, speaking truth to power. Now we're going to get in on the action from afar... WOO WOO, what a sorry excuse for a human being is Maharaji

Subject: Not very observant are you? From: JHB To: Observer Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 12:38:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Perhaps you could give us your observations on Maharaji's illegal use of the IRCC land, Maharaji's support of Jagdeo and Fakiranand's crimes, Maharaji's failure as a husband and father, Maharaji's need for alcohol and cannabis, and Maharaji's insatiable desire for symbols of wealth. That would show us how observant you really are, Observer. John the observant.

Subject: Re: Not very observant are you? From: Observer To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 00:16:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Exactly, JHB... He's a crack whore who's busy encouraging molestation and violent assault when he isn't busy being detested by his children and wife, shooting at small animals and chasing an army of invisible blondes. Uh huh. Or perhaps, you've fallen, hook, line and sinker for a huge load of exaggerated, twisted crap in an Internet chat room that requires regular infusions of new (actually, usually heavily recycled) meat to keep boredom away from the door. Ever considered why any of the people who've regularly spent time withe guy in the last 20 years haven't jumped in and supported any of the stuff you're peddling? The bollocks content is enormous. And everything essential and of any importance is conveniently and predictably left out. Snarky, catty, tabloid, harsh, highly selective, inaccurate, time-wasting bollocks. Repeat it as much as you like, you're still discussing an invented character. Speaking of observation, exactly how many areas of his life, that you've so neatly dissembled and assassinated, have you actually witnessed or observed? You, JHB. Any? And you're talking about his family life and kids as if you have the slightest connection with reality? These are your own observations? Thought not. Hope you enjoy your summer, just the same.

Subject: Do you follow the news? From: JHB To: Observer Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 02:25:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Observer, There are many things that I believe that I do not have first hand experience of. Although I am healthily sceptical, I do believe most of what I hear on the news, even when it's reporting events in countries I've never been to. Like the news, the content of www.ex-premie.org is based on first hand reports from reputable witnesses who have risked their own reputations to provide the accounts. As you appear to believe these accounts to be incorrect, perhaps you could give some evidence to back up your beliefs, and to explain why the people who have reported Maharaji's behaviour are mistaken or lying. Anyway, no one has ever reported that Maharaji uses crack, only alcohol (heavily) and cannabis. You accuse me of leaving out anything essential and of any importance. I assume you mean the experience of knowledge and devotion. Well there is no evidence that the experience of knowledge is anything more than the effects of unusual sensory practices on the mind. If you have any such evidence I sincerely would like to hear it. The experience of devotion is a cleverly engineered con trick to separate you from your money and to boost Maharaji's insecure ego. Was there anything else essential and of importance? John.

Subject: More Brit press cuts! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:18:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why a God kept me waiting ..... and more press cuts. Including: 'Nothing tatty' for boy Guru A little earthly problem for the Divine Guru By Wendy Hughes Teenage Guru He believes in the trendiest gear, the fastest cars. He watches 'Man from Uncle' on TV. And six million worship him as the Divine Light. By Andrew Fyall Why a God kept me waiting By the Rev. John Lambert Vicar of Cuffley, Herts. Guru sect to show accounts By David Woodhead Disciples plead 'release cash' By our Staff Correspondent in New Delhi The 'boy god' with a taste for ice cream... and the good things of life Back in Britain today - the guru with some questions to answer about his wealth... and a smuggling riddle

Subject: The Vicar of Cuffley's apposite remarks From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:58:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm reposting this excerpt here for people who haven't managed to trawl through all those articles. It's really interesting. 'Why a God kept me waiting By the Rev. John Lambert Vicar of Cuffley, Herts. When this poor parson went to meet God he tried to bunk out of the back door. The Rolls-Royce was ready, complete with disciple and a blanket to shroud his head. The Guru Maharaj Ji was not pleased to see the parson and only stopped to talk to me because I barred the way to his gleaming car. He had the sense to see that knocking down a Rev. gent in his own parish would not be good for his image as the Perfect Master. All this took place in his caravan in Tolmers Park Scout Camp at Cuffley, Herts, where nearly 3,000 devotees waited patiently for his wisdom before going to Alexandra Palace to attend his Festival of Love and Wisdom. But he would have run out on them to escape meeting me if he could. All his promises, and he did make them, would have gone by the board because I can only conclude he was afraid. Questions from a journalist and in this case a seriously interested and sympathetic member, were not welcomed. Which was a pity because what he and his movement teaches has something to say to our world and is something the majority of churches are afraid to face. The young people who follow him are gentle, considerate and well behaved. As I write, hundreds are passing my front door, yet there is no litter or unnecessary noise. The scouts and ramblers make far more mess! Their camp is disciplined, clean and moral. Babies are there. I took one couple with a five week-old child to the camp in my car. Americans, Frenchmen, Jews and Arabs mingle in the same tents, bound by a love of the Master and the search for truth. Ex-drug addicts are thick among them as well as the people who have freaked out of the rat race. Many had come through the churches but were disillusioned by what they found. Mary, Arthur, John and Hamish were people I would be glad to count as friends. This article will hurt them because they believe so much in The Man. He is their Messiah, their god, their saviour. I feel a rat trying to say to them, and the countless other young people who may come to think likewise, that in my opinion he is a fraud. Ten minutes talking to a man who has tried to dodge you is not long. But my confrontation left me frightened and depressed. It began loaded with apprehension. The small group of the faithful held their breath and the guru was ill at ease. Gradually his confidence grew as he realised I was not going to verbally maul him and the answers became slicker and more packed. There was little logic and constant evasion. The anomaly of a Rolls-Royce for the Perfect Master did not trouble him. 'It is the gift of love from my disciples and I will not offend them.' The suggestion of giving it away to help the poor who were around him did not register or impress. To be fair, many a bishop and a Pope has made the same mistake and lived the same lie. I asked him about this. He replied: 'It is one's attitude to them that is all important. My car and my clothes are not attached to me by safety pins.' I asked him if he was really 15 - or 19 as some people allege. 'My passport records that I was born in 1957, so I really cannot understand all the fuss.' Was he embarrassed by the presents and the wealth he displayed? 'It is as loving to receive as it is to give.' Five minutes after my interview he appeared to his followers - with all ideas of premature departure presumably forgotten. As he addressed them he said how he was criticised for the Rolls-Royce which, anyway, was falling to pieces. The faithful laughed. Someone who suggested that Hare Krishna was a guru of equal standing was unceremoniously thrown out. So what is the secret of this phenomena? Why has it happened? Two events that lie outside the movement have contributed. One is growing disillusionment with the materialistic world. But oddly enough his followers have got to have a materialistic god which they can see, touch and handle. Probably what is more damning is that the church is failing these young people. Many came to it for love, but found only ethics, dogma and taboos. The compassion of Jesus was seldom present in the so-called houses of God. We who are Christians, whatever our denominations, ought this weekend to go down on our knees in an act of penitence for the way we have betrayed these people and exposed them to such spiritual danger. In the second instance it is possible these days to make 'a silk purse out of a sow's ear.' Good management and publicity, have made pop stars from deformed tonsils. This man is cleverly managed. The secrecy around him is part of his greatest appeal. Though he denies being God, he is aware he is allowing a cult to be built up around him as a deity. Brick by brick he fashions the pedestal that sets him above mortal man. How strong this is can be seen from the fact that because I have actually spoken with the Master some of his disciples - who have never got close to him and will not be allowed to - want to touch me and called me blessed. Much of his teaching is modelled on Christ and only an expert would detect the subtle differences. All heresies, and this is a heresy, have been distortions of the truth. Fortunately, some good can come out of evil and there is charisma ... this magnetic appeal that draws. It is manufactured, the man has not got it in himself. It is where this well end that the real test will lie and for people like Mary, Arthur, John and Hamish it will end in disillusionment and pain.' I know the man is a Christian and he is obviously biased against someting he sees as non-Christian, but at the same time I thought he made some apposite observations. And I find the last paragraph very poignant. Love, Livia

Subject: A poignant passage From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 14:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'The financial set-up of the Achnacloich ashram was explained by the secretary at that time, Mr. John Dewhurst. 'Eight of us are working,' he said. 'Jobs are hard to come by here, so most of us do timber contracting work. The two housemothers don't have jobs. 'I suppose we send between £150 and £200 a week to headquarters in London. 'They send us back £40 a week for the ten of us to live on.'

Subject: My Two Farourite: From: Gregg To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:21:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This one, for it's pure poetic Zippy-ness: Shinding by jet for a fat-faced 'God' And this one, for an illustration of the tres formidable francais saying, 'plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.' (The more things change, the more they stay the same): 'In fact the teaching from the platform was contradictory, vague and often trivial - though this did not seem to concern the followers.' The only difference in Prem Pal's speaking style that I can see is that he used to be more contradictory and trivial; now he is mostly vague.

Subject: Oops. I meant Favourite. (nt) From: Gregg To: Gregg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:22:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: There you are again mate From: Hey Glen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:55:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You were shmoozed right in there with the little fella' were'nt you? Doing his accounting and all. Stop on down the pub and we'll buy you a pint mate.

Subject: Great resource there, J-M. From: cq To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:31:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: old die-hard premies might like to think this should all be 'swept under the carpet' as it were. But I bet at least a few of the newer converts will find their eyes opened by this stuff. BTW, a joke: Maharaji's Malibu mansion gates are in need of repair. So three ironmongers, a premie, an ex-premie and a non-premie, arrive at the pearly gates where the Maha's waiting. M greets them nicely but quickly gets to the point. 'As you can see, my gates are in need of repair. I want a quote' The premie ironmonger looks at the gate and replies, 'Hmm, OK, $200 for the material, and because I'm a good premie I'll do it for free' The ex-premie ironmonger says: 'Look, this needs to be done properly. $500 for the work, $200 for the materials, and $100 compensation for how you screwed me by pretending to be god-in-a-bod back in the 70s and 80s. That makes 800 bucks. Can´t be fairer than that' The non-premie carpenter takes M to one side, and says 'I'll do it for $1,000.' M says 'What? 1000 dollars? how do you figure that?' 'Well, 400 for me, 400 for you and we'll let the premie guy do it'

Subject: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:46:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Has anything happened on the Jagdeo affair? Last I heard, Elan Vital was pretending to be pursuing a lawsuit against Jagdeo in India, but wouldn't even say whether they knew where Jagdeo was, or whether he had been served. Plus, there were reports that Jagdeo was living happily in EV ashrams in India until quite recently. Maharaji's organization appears to have taken no visible effort to contact any other victims, of which there are surely many, or take any responsbility for Jagdeo's molestation of children over a period of years. I think it's important that we not let the cult slide all this under the carpet and hope it goes away. One thing we might do, is to email the 'Prem Rawat Foundation' at feedback@tprf.org and ask about the status of the Jagdeo investigation. You could also forward a copy of your email to news organizations or other interested parties. Be sure to include the www.ex-premie.org address, because that's where one can get the background on the sordid Jagdeo affair.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:20:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joe, I went to the police again recently, to press them on what they've been doing about Jagdeo. But it's not something I want to discuss here. The affair has a way of rearing it's ugly head when you think it's gone away. The fact remains, there was a cover-up, and there's only one person in a position to have authorised that. Nobody has cleaned the mess up yet. The fish head under Rawat's sofa is still stinking. Anth the Supergrass.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: CPG To: Joe Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:06:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If true, the allegations against Jagdeo are reprehensible and deserve to be looked into. However, with only ONE victim coming forward out of the hundreds of thousands in contact with Jagdeo over the years, this sounds very difficult. How does one contact other victims if they don't come forward/. And lets make it clear there were no allegations of complicity by Maharaji in this alleged crime as reported by the one alleged victim.

Subject: More than one victim. From: AJW To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There have been more than one victim who has come forward. I've been in contact with four of them personally, and have heard very disturbing reports of other victims. I've also spoken to an ex-national co-ordinator who told me that Jagdeo's crimes were discussed by small groups of honchos at conferences in the late 80s. And as a result of this, Jagdeo was eventually restricted to touring Asian communities in the Far East. What is your interest in this CPG? Anth Ginn.

Subject: Re: More than one victim. From: CPG To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, I spoke with four guys the other day who have been to Mars. But they won't come forward. Come forward means to publicly make your accusation, without hiding or passing messages through a third party. Anything else just isn't credible. Drawing conclusions on anything less is medieval. In the US one has the right to face their accusser. Would you like to be branded as something despicable based on rumor from unnamed sources/ Because of this approach this issue won't pass the snicker test to any independent thinker.

Subject: 'independent' thinker From: Dermot To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:25:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that's hilarious. I take it your thinking is completely 'independent' of your obesciance to Prem Pal, yeah? You're just this 'independent' totally 'un-biased' seeker of the facts .....nothing at all to do with an attempt to ensure your master is free from criticism. Of course not. Only people who criticise Prem Pal are warped aren't they? Not folks like you. Like if your daughter told you she'd been raped by someone ...how could you possibly believe her? ....after all she's just SPEAKING to you....she'd probablty think she'd been to MARS too ....silly girl. You'd need DNA evidence, a host of witnesses and film footage first wouldn't you? Especially in your good ole USA ....THE BASTION OF TRUTH , JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY.Well actually, only if your precious Prem Pal was remotely conected to the tragedy I suppose....I guess you'd give your daughter a break....sort of like, the benefit of the doubt......if anyone but Prem was at risk of falling off a pedestal. So, mr/mrs/ms 'Independent' thinker you've conceded there's been one victim and you know how devoted Jagdeo was to his M A S T E R ...YES? at least I know how devoted he was ....like a dog actually.....that's how devoted.... (I came across him a few times and even had an argument with him over some matter un-related to his raping escapade(s). So what does your fine 'independent' brain think Prem pal knew about Jagdeo? And how many years ago did he know it ......just this ONE victim that you agree on that is.....ahhhh I see this M A S T E R knew fuck all!!! Right.....all these people were informed including that other lapdog Charanand BUT the M A S T E R knew nothing.It's like a miracle aint it? Sort of defies all reason doesn't it? Kinda like your great US presidents. Nixon ....Reagan....ah how convenient......how/why should the top man know ANYTHING about NAYTHING untoward? Just like Prem never knew that Fakiranand was still on duty in Switzerland doing his Masters 'propagation', so soon after bludgeoning a mans head with a hammer. Now you have a problem here. Your MASTER was interviewed by the press on this occasion (yup there IS film footage of that ) and he's ON RECORD saying 'he'll deal with it!. Now between me and you...what do you reckon a good way of dealing with it would be? Turn the lunatic over to the American authorities OR send the lunatic to propagate in Switzerland, to mingle with Premies and non-Premies alike? Bear in mind that it's a FACT that Fakiranad was sent to Europe and his driver at the time (a very honest guy....whom I know personally) has the whole story and the leaflets advertising him ,dates etc. But it's PREM PAL we're talking of here so I guess you'll get round those unfortunate FACTS somehow. Independent thinker my ass. Fuck off with your bullshit.

Subject: Re: 'independent' thinker From: CPG To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 09:28:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excuse me please for disturbing you, for letting a stream of light and truth enter your dark and dank little burrow. I know you were all comfy in there wallowing in your own shit, so I'll just let you get back to your anger and misery, you sarcastic, sad little wretch. Maybe someone else will will pick up the thread with the guy with the hammer, 30 years ago for gods sake. Get a life, then try enjoying it, its nice.

Subject: Go rot From: Dermot To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:25:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: away with your amoral, greedy, greaseball, master ...sycophant. My life BEGAN when I saw Rawat clearly....I pity you......almost.

Subject: I was a litle over the top From: Dermot To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:45:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: with that 'go rot' post ....nevertheless you still annoy me with your supposed 'critical independence' when it's plain as night is day you're desperate to do a whitewash job. Easier to insult and leave than talk about Fakirand and Rawats role in that tragic crime AND his role in Jagdeos crimes too....it all mounts up and points to someone who puts his IMAGE before what is truly RIGHT.

Subject: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:42:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ONLY ONE VICTIM? How dare you say that! How many must there be? A. was seven, yes 7 years old when Jagdeo raped her and he didn't use his finger if you catch my drift. And even if he ''only'' used his finger, it is still an unimaginable heinous crime against an innocent child. Do YOU have any children? Know any? Just notice a seven year old girl next time you're around children and imagine a grown man raping a seven year old little girl. There is nothing worse that could happen in anyone's life, girl or boy. Where is your sense of decency? Where is your conscience? Educate yourself! There are people who have information that Maharji did indeed have knowledge of these rapes and other sexual abusive acts upon children of his premies. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. He knew it all and you just don't want to believe it because you're so in love with him. Well, I'm bursting your bubble, CPG. He knew everything and CHOSE not to do anything about it. He is and was too engrossed in himself to care. And guess what? He doesn't give a shit about YOU either! Wait until you realize that one. And you lurk here with no name, no evidence to the contrary, and say ONLY ONE VICTIM. Well, whoever you are, one victim is one too many. What's wrong with your mind? Have you been brainwashed? Do you believe Maharaji is above the law. He knew...he knew and he knew...and did NOTHING! Children were raped! Are you out of your mind? Children were raped! If you have evidence he didn't then prove it. Or contact him to have HIM prove it. You won't get an answer because he's a complete coward with no sense of morality or conscience. I plan on writing him a letter very soon about this matter because I've just about had it with you cult apologists who care more about a fat-ass guru than little kids who were abused at the hands and genitals of that maniac, Jagdeo, Maharaji's agent, employee and close associate. Tell me, why was Jagdeo guarded after these allegations came out during the time they happened? You have some nerve minimizing the rape of a 7 year old little girl for the sake of a no-good, creep of a cowardly man (if you want to stretch the definition of 'man') who you worship, namely, Guru Maharaj Ji, a/ka/ Prem Pal Singh Rawat, Malibu, California, among many other palaces (which we paid and slaved for). Fuck you very much. Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA -- who are you?

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: CPG To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:13:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO. I am concerned about this issue too; i looked into it quite a bit a few months ago and after reading all of the material could not find the name of more than ONE alleged victim. So lets be clear about this and not blow angry smoke to try and cover it up OK/ It doesn't fool anybody.

Subject: Like I said CPG From: AJW To: CPG Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:28:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like I said CPG, I have spoken personally, face to face, to four victims of Jagdeo. I have no intention of publishing their names here. But as you seem to have an active interest in the matter, maybe you could ask your premie pals about a meeting that supposedly took place in Miami, around the late 80s, early 90s, to discuss what to do after Jagdeo had sexually assaulted the child of an Indian instructor. Somebody told me Maria Isabella was at the meeting. I'd like to know more about this. Anth Ginn

Subject: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji From: Reprise from John MacGregor To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:17:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course.

Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji From: CPG To: Reprise from John MacGregor Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One guys completely unsubstantiated opinion. One guy I don't know from the guy who keeps emailing me get rich quick schemes. A guy who apparently had no personal knowledge of the crimes or M's knowledge of them. He talks about others having had to know. Internet story telling. Just the facts maam. Only there dont seem to be any. Only fifth hand stories and opinions from people who obviously despise Maharaji. What a joke.

Subject: you are seeing only what you want to see From: Susan To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Listen, it is HELL to come forward and tell the truth about this and get called a liar about one of the most painful things that ever happened to you. Both A. ( who has not said it didn't happened, just asked to have it off the web ) and myself know of other victims. The one I know has no intention of ever coming forward. We have discussed it. But what Jagdeo did to her was truly horrible. As I have said before his line was 'your clothes are your MIND, take off your clothes' do you think a 12 year old faithful, very believing young premie girl can deal with that without extreme pain forever? We who know of other victims owe more to those who do not want to come forward. Why would they , to be attacked? I know of at least 4 girls in seventies Miami who were molested or attempted to be molested by Jagdeo. I did report it, twice, but of course as we all know, no one I reported it to recalls. This is the truth. I am sick of it. I have done enough. I have said before I have no intention of suing anyone as I got away from that MONSTER before he could do much. But he did A LOT worse to his younger victims. IF you think they aren't out there you have huge blinders on. I also know EV knows of some of the other victims, maybe there are confidentiality agreements or maybe their parents are premies still or maybe people who it was reported to don't see fit to come on this board and report it. But that is the truth. Jagdeo was a MONSTER. Also, why would EV be suing him in India and saying he is a pedophile and then denying the truth of what A. and I say in the same press release. ( Like yes he is a molester but those two are wrong?) Anyone who reads that should get a grip. My biggest regret is I reproted Jagdeo to initiators instead of the police. But of course I would never have done that then, I trusted Guru Maharaj Ji and knew he would stop him. I was a 15 year old who believed at the time with all my heart.

Subject: Hi Susan. From: AJW To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:34:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Susan, It's disgusting the way these creeps from the cult are constantly protecting Rawat's paedophile pal, and trying to discredit his victims. What a sorry mess of misguided, mindless, morons they are. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the nusiance.

Subject: Re: you are seeing only what you want to see From: cpg To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never called Susan or A a liar; personally I believe Susan and have to agree there were PROBABLY more victims. What I am responding to is the way others in this thread and elsewhere on here take there anger against M and convert it to 'facts' in this case. The fact is- there is only one victim willing to come forward. This makes it no less a horrible crime for this and any other victims, but to extrapolate from this a whole culture of pedophilia is pure fantasy. I have yet to read any evidence of complicity either.

Subject: To CPG on Jagdeo, Maharaji and moral corruption From: Livia To: cpg Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:14:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look CPG, I was a premie when I first heard about Jagdeo's paeodophilia. I read that he had abused several premie children, and knew for a fact that nothing official had ever been said about it, as I would have heard, being on the mailing list and having received every official communication for decades. My immediate feeling was an 'oh no' as simple common sense told me that if the information is out there on the internet, Maharaji must also know about it. So my first feeling was, if Maharaji knew about it before me (it had been on the internet for at least a couple of years before I read it) why had nothing been announced about it? Surely, if Maharaji was a genuine teacher with good ethical standards, the first thing he would do would be to send a letter to all the premies saying that these terrible facts had come to light. He would then announce that Jagdeo had been reported to the police, stripped of his instructor status and dealt with appropriately. He would also request all victims to come forward so they could be apologised to and compensated in some way. It doesn't matter how you look at it, CPG, anything less than that is totally unacceptable. Maharaji, as Jagdo's master, is absolutely not in a position where he can abnegate responsibility for Jagdeo's actions. That does not make him guilty of paedophilia himself - obviously not. But as Jagdeo's master the onus is most certainly on him to deal with the situation. If all this hadn't come to light, I would probably still be a practising premie. It was after finding out about Jagdeo and realising that Maharaji hadn't acted appropriately, that I began to doubt him. I never had a moment's doubt before that. And any premie who hears about Jagdeo and Maharaji's lack of appropriate action needs to look seriously at their own conscience, or lack of it. If they feel Maharaji has done nothing to cause them to doubt him, then they have lost their own essential moral and ethical sense. Their belief in him has superceded it, leaving them in a moral quagmire where anything goes - if Maharaji does it. I came to my senses at that point and for the first time began to see Maharaji as he really must be - a deeply flawed person whose own moral sense is seriously lacking. His desire to maintain his apparent credibility and 'keep up appearances' has overtaken any compulsion to 'do the right thing'. And what kind of person does that then make him? Not, absolutely not what we all thought he was, period. And you, CPG, just can't see it, because you have been too corrupted. And quite frankly I find that scary. Livia

Subject: Re: To CPG From: CPG To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:18:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tunnel vision ...take off the blinders, baby. You are so immeshed in your own view you can't see the illogic of it. You totally agree with 'Us' or you are a scary demented person. Maharaji is a god in a bod, the perfect being; anything less and he is scum. The world ain't black and white, there are many shades of grey, and these absolute and extreme conclusions based on inuendo and rumor are infantile.

Subject: Re: To CPG From: Livia To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:24:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, CPG, your total inability or downright refusal even to contemplate that there may have been a cover-up speaks volumes. Rational, discriminating, thinking and aware people generally sense when it's the right time to smell a rat. Irrational, non-discriminating, unclear and unaware people tend to miss the truth of a situation. This is because for one reason or another they have lost the reason, discrimination, clarity and awareness they were presumably born with. Membership of a cult has a tendency to remove one's reason, discrimination, clarity of thought and awareness. One may join a cult in all good faith, unable to see the fact that one is joining a cult. One may even join a cult without knowing it's a cult, in the sincere hope of increasing one's awareness. Sadly however, years of cult membership tend have the opposite effect, replacing awareness with a sort of fundamentalism. This fundamentalism can even pose as 'increased awareness' but it's fundamentalism alright. It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it. One of the attributes of fundamentalism is the inability to see the possibility of any fault in one's chosen leader. In this way, Moonies have total faith in Sun Myung Moon, the Rajneeshis had total faith in Bhagwan and Sai Baba devotees have total faith in Sai Baba. Moon has links with far-right organisations, Bhagwan oversaw a murder and used his devotees for his own sexual pleasures and Sai Baba has sexually abused young boys and men for decades. Thousands upon thousands of devotees of all three of the above had total faith in their masters, even after finding out what had been going on. Some of these devotees are seeing the light and realising that their masters were charlatans. Others can't see it and cling to the belief that their master is/was perfect. I have a Sai Baba devotee friend who just cannot believe the abuse allegations around her master; her fundamentalist need to believe is too strong. I also know premies who have heard all the allegations about Maharaji and just cannot believe them; their fundamentalist need to believe in him is too strong. What would you say to my Sai Baba devotee friend? I'm serious - read the Sai Baba ex site, and then please get back to me. Do you think the allegations could be true? If you were a Sai Baba devotee do you think that you, like her, might have difficulty believing the allegations and may try to look for rationalisations and explanations, as she does? If you go to Google and type in 'ex sai baba', a site will come up 'for concerned ex followers of Sai Baba'. I'd be genuinely interested to know what you think. Livia

Subject: ex premie logic primer- From: CPG To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:46:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: EX PREMIE LOGIC PRIMER - everyone must agree completely with the ex party line as enunciated on EPO and this forum - anyone who doesn't agree or questions any aspect of the party line has been brainwashed by The Cult- not the ex-cult, the non-ex-cult. This is a very safe belief system for the persons emplying it; I have seen it employed by many. Eg, I have seen alcoholics use this system- if you drink you are an alcoholic; if you don't agree with me you are in denial. Either way you are in their view an alcoholic, there is no question that their belief system is intact and correct, the only question is whether the person in question is too messed up to see your truth. Talk about a cult. This is a very dangerous belief system and is by definition FASCIST. -look it up if you don't agree with me. Livia, I appreciate your concern but in fact I have looked through all of this stuff extensively because I want to know about my teacher. I have stated my conclusions here; no one was interested because while I accept some of the things said here I don't all. With my belief system and experience of K I can accept M as my teacher even with minor faults. I have seen no evidence or even decent circumstantial evidence of anything more than this. I object to people on this forum mistating others experiences or observations, quoting completely unsubstantiated rumors as fact, and , as in this case, expanding one alleged incident into a culture of pedophilia and a cover up. The cover up is only wishful thinking on the part of those who wish M harm. There is absolutely no evidence of this. ' He had to know' doesn't count. Susan telling someone to tell him 25 years ago doesn't cut it for me. There are far more benign explainations than otherwise, all just as viable. If the purpose of this forum is to enlighten others, meaning with the truth, everyone will be better served by sticking to the facts and claiming your opinions or hopes as just that, not as reality.

Subject: Flawed Logic and Convoluted Thoughts... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:49:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: CPG Your post above makes no sense. Especially your attempt at using alcoholism as an analogy. Alcoholism is a disease. You also speak in absolutes. For instance, ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' with the party line. How would you know about ''everybody?'' Impossible. If ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' there again you are claiming some special or magical way of having information about all ex-premies (who post here, anyway). I think you're projecting because it's my experience here that many of us disagree with eachother on various issues. I wonder about the evolution by premies flinging back their (your) cultist thought proceses by calling us a cult. It's an interesting 'back in your face' turn of events and is absurd. You can't think clearly or see Maharaji objectively because you've given up your freedom of thought to Rawat. You can't see that you've done this because you already gave it up...you're programmed, locked in, brainwashed, call it what you want, but you're in over your head. Look, when it comes around to child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, I won't stop talking until all child abuse ends. Someone over at LG criticized my first post to you about victim A. Being a survivor of horrific child abuse, I can tell you this: if you've never been sexually abused as a child, it's almost impossible to know what the experience is throughout one's life. It is a wounding of a child that is life damaging. The only way out of it is to strive to heal, whichever way works, but usually it takes years and years of therapy. Furthermore, having worked very closely with Maharaji for an extended period of time, a year, I know that not much happens around him that he doesn't know about or have control over. He's a control freak. He micro-manages. And he has lousy personality. He may be great on stage to you, but behind the scenes, he quite a piece of nasty work. Don't tell me about child abuse until you've walked a day in my shoes. If you continue to be abusive to Livia or anyone else here I'm going to ask that you be blocked. Maybe you need to stop meditating for a few months, not listen to Rawat's videos, get out of touch and see how much better you feel. Then come back and argue that we are the cult. I won't even bother to address your comment that ex-premies are fascists because by saying that you reveal you don't know what fascism is. Look it up.

Subject: Smell the coffee cpg. From: AJW To: cpg Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:38:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: cpg, I've spoken to four victims. Ihere is a report of a mahatmas child being abused by him. There are reports that he had special sessions with young children, in darkened rooms at Unity School in Denver and Wringford in England. An ex-national co-ordinator told me his tours were retricted because of reports of his paedophilia. Wherever Jagdeo went, it seems there was a culture of child abuse. It was reported to Gurucharanand, Randy Proudy, and Judy Osbourne. There were all full time officials in the cult at the time. Nothing was done about it because Jagdeo is a big pal of Rawat, the ver imperfect master. Grow up cpg. Anth Ginn.

Subject: Who do you see.... From: PatD To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:05:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...when you stand & clap the speaker? Then sit & listen to his words of wisdom that you can't remember 5 mins. afterwards. 'Wow,that was great'....'Yeahh right,just the same,it's amazing,he's saying the same thing he's always said'...'Did you hear him say so & so'....'No,missed that one,must've nodded off at that point'....'I know a great Chinese restaurant just round the corner'....'it's amazing to see all these people I haven't seen for ages'.....'who is this guy'...dunno.....'stopped thinking about that'....'do you still meditate'....'I know what you mean,got to get it together'...'I remember when blah blah'....'do you reckon he'll dance again'....'who're those fuckers in the front row seats... 'he's trying to change all that'....'he's the man though isn't he'....'yeah fantastic,let's get a drink'...'nice to see you again'... 21st century satsang,nice & easy. That's not at all the vibe that the greater than god built his wealth on & you know it. The children who were abused by Jagdeo were given into his care by parents who believed that a realised soul,appointed such by the Lord of the Universe,were on the road to bliss & god consciousness under his(mahatma...great soul) guidance. So that turned out to be the wrong way to look at things did it? ...'yeah,the closer you get to the sun the more you get burned'...'those that were 1st shall be last'...'she's got a really good job now & can get to all the events'...'I don't know what to make of him ,but it's nice to see you again'... FUCK YOU cpg, & all your friends.

Subject: Of course people are angry at Rawat From: gerry To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:09:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Complicity lies in the disputed fact that Rawat was told early on about Jagdeo's uh, predilictions, and Prem chose to look the other way while continuing to send Jagdeo out on 'missions.' You know what, pal? It would not take much, just some time and dedication, to track down Jagdeo's victims. Rawat has the resources to do so and he certainly could be doing a whole lot more to reach out to victims. But I know that's expecting way too much of him as a man. Think about this: if Rawat DIDN'T know about Jagdeo, then he would be doing something about it, if he were an honorable and accountable adult. The facts are looking like he was told by at least two different sources. Probably more and I'd guess they had a lot of discussion about it. But if Rawat did know about Jagdeo and did nothing but shift Jagdeo around, than that's even worse. Either way, Rawat is fucked on this deal and it's his own fault that he's in this predicament.

Subject: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: Susan To: cpg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:30:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have not seen anyone say that. In fact, the Hare Khrishna's HAD a culture of pedophilia, where children were sent to GuruKula's ( boarding schools) and tortured. It was my belief when I was a premie that Maharaj Ji cared about children, thus I reported it to him. But without the people I reported it to to back me up, I can't prove anything. There are a few people I told who remember my telling THEM that I had told the two initiators. But the initiators themselves do not remember, or claim not to remember, my telling them. This would not make Rawat 'complicit' until he did not remove Jagdeo from duties, I cannot even imagine Rawat reporting Jagdeo to the police as should have been done. It simply was not 'our' culture at the time. We believed Rawat was the Lord of the Universe, who would be a higher authority to report it to than him. Thus that is who I attempted to report it to, and I still believe got the message. Because of the response of him being glad it was not a new report. I believe Rawat did do something about Rawat, but perhaps he ( like most of people in the seventies and eighties ) thought he could discipline Jagdeo out of it. But that is pure speculation. It is so like the Catholic Church. I am angry too at the Cardinals who protected themselves and their reputations rather than protecting kids. That is complicit, and that is the way he is I believe complicit, how he responded, once he knew. I am not saying he approved. I am saying I think he knew, did something too little, and thought he had taken care of the problem. The culture of the time is complicit too, as we all believed with Rawat's full endorsement he was Lord of the Univierse. He didn't tell us the words to arti were not literal, he did tell us Guru is greater than God, no matter what all the revisionists say , lots of us, myself included, really believed in him, and that he cared, and that he was the Perfect master, or the Messiah of our time. And we all know his satsangs encouraged this. At the time, any quote of his was He said, not he said..... His being LOTU has a lot to do with it being brushed under the carpet for so long. I am sure he did not approve of Jagdeo being a pedophile. I just think he was too cowardly, ignorant or into protecting his own reputation to do anything about it. By the way, thank you for believing me. Every word is the truth.

Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: CPG To: Susan Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:42:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now that is a clear, rational message. Others have extrapolated far more from your report. 'Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult' implies to me a widespread problem or cultural acceptance of it, and others have posted those sentiments here as well, stating rumor as fact. As the only victim to come forward, if I were you I would correct them to maintain the integrity of your story. There are many possible scenarios fo M being told or not. Some make him a scumbag, some make him innocent, and most lie in between. Would you imprison a cardinal and dismantle the Catholic Church if he had heard 3rd hand of one incident 25 yrs ago, unverified, had not heard directly from the victim, and didn't follow up as conventional wisdom about pedophiles would dictate in todays world/ Me, I would say in a perfect world he should have handled it differently, but in light of medical thought of pedophilia at the time I wouldn't condemn him for it. On the other hand, these cardinals who knew priests were raping kids, because they came forward directly and severally, then sent the priest out to be near kids again, I would throw them in prison. The point is there is no evidence or even suggestion that anything remotely like this was the case with maharaji, yet many on this forum state that just that is the fact. Those who state this demolish their own credibility and integrity by doing so.

Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia From: Vicki To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 23:08:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It just occurs to me that these instructors who simply can't remember must either be lying or have organic memory loss. Why? Because how many children would have come up to an instructor in those days, or even now, and tell them they have been sexually abused by Jagdeo? Wouldn't that tend to shock and disturb an instructor so deeply it is something they would remember for the rest of their life? Unless of course, they followed their conscience, got word to Maharaji and in due course were told either it was handled or to forget about it, and now with the current attitude of revisionism, that it was the victim's fault or fabricated. This is not like being told some simpering gossip. It is earth shattering and mind boggling. Of course they would remember. How convenient to say they can't. Typical legal maneuver. But of course, all's fair in the world of agya.

Subject: The 'I do not recall' Syndrome... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 06:36:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Vicki, How are you? After so many official 'I do not recall(s)' coming from the political arena, I've come to believe that people actually might believe themselves when they say 'I don't remember.' It's an odd thing that. Even folks on witness stands or sitting before Congressional or Senatorial Committee, swear under oath that 'I do not recall,' or 'not to my recollection.' I wonder how much the individuals who were informed about Jagdeo really can't recall. It's disgusting. When it concerns an innocent child or the account of an adult survivor of abuse, I think it's beneath contempt for someone to suddenly lose their memory. The person who strikes me as particularly unbelievably forgetful is Judy O. She's a midwife, delivered Marolyn's children. And Marolyn is another big question mark in my mind about who knew what and when they knew it. I'm convinced through a simple hunch that Marolyn has known about this too. I'd like to be proven wrong, but if I'm correct, this means she's truly living in denial. Love, Cynthia

Subject: HI Cynthia From: Vicki To: Susan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 23:07:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm okay except for sputtering the pollution that has decended upon us with the summer heat. I'm sure you're correct that some people legitimatly "can't remember" when put on a witness stand. Unfortunately, it is also a legal maneuver. Saying "I can't recall" is a cheap cop out. There is no way an instructor or VIP would not remember such a heneous thing being told to them in the context of the time. This was the era of love and peace and goodness. Come to knowledge to escape the maya; not come to knowledge and get more maya than you've ever encountered with sexual abuse thrown in. I firmly believe such a thing would have been so outrageously out of context in the premie world that they would not only remember it, but remember it with surprising clarity. But then again, agya justifies even lying doesn't it?

Subject: I think I said it incorrectly... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:56:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I think what I meant to say was that when people say 'I do not recall' they go into a small sort of denial, but know full well they are protecting themselves by using these phrases to lie. I was on my first cup of coffee...sorry:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: Cynthia To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:34:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO, Gee, CPG, whoever you are, have you never heard the 'F' word before? Well, I apologize. See, I like to swear, that's just me. I don't consider the abuses perpetrated by Jagdeo as allegations. Why? Because I've read A.'s accounts of the rape and I believe her. I've had private email conversations with her and I know she's telling the truth. Why would anyone lie about being so severely abused as a child? For fun? Certainly not for money. A. holds an advanced degree and works for a university. It's not really about money, but when one is so wounded by sexual abuse, the only compensation IS money. Therapy is very expensive and in cases of early childhood sexual assault, it often takes much time to work through the issues in order to heal. I've also spoken on the phone to one other victim and I believe her, too. Also, I am a survivor of incest and sexual abuse as a child--it lasted about ten years from age 2-1/2 to age 13. So this is an issue that is particularly important to me and a subject about which I'm very well educated and informed. That's why I become indignant when someone comes along and speaks without knowledge and information. Gerry is quite correct about pedophiles. They average over a 100, sometimes to 300 victims in their criminal career, so I am willing to bet there are hundreds of victims all over this world who were abused by Jagdeo. It's simply the MO of a pedophile. It's as simple as that. Don't believe me, again, read up. There's tons of material on the internet. You bet I'm angry with Maharaji for covering up the Jagdeo abuses and that anger comes through whenever someone like you comes here and anonymously makes statements that are mindless, especially about the issues of child abuse in all it's forms. Please go to the link I've provided and you'll find quite a bit of information to get started. Btw, PCA-America was formerly called the Committee for the Prevention of Child Abuse. Prevent Child Abuse America was renamed after Vermont's PCA-Vermont which was founded and is run by none other than my own private therapist, a humanitarian who I would compare to Mother Theresa. Someone who has dedicated her life to stopping ALL child abuse. She is a saint if there are saints and she helped me to recover from my childhood. Because of her efforts and successes in reducing abuse in Vermont, she has gained national recognition. She works two jobs: as the Director of PCA-Vermont, and as a private psychotherapist specializing in recovering adult survivors of child abuse. She's told me many times when I've asked her how she does it that the Director job is most challenging and stressful, but the psychotherapy job gives her the most satisfaction and relaxation. She's a wonder woman--a lioness and a lamb. Again, sorry for the profanity... Cynthia J. Gracie Prevent Child Abuse America (PCA America) www.preventchildabuse.org/learn_more/research.html

Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity... From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:24:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know of at least one other victim other than the one we can't mention. She has posted on this board. Other people know the names of other victims as well, although I personally do not. Pedophiles like the one Rawat pampered and protected NEVER have just one or two victims. In his case, with all that easy and 'private' access to children bolstered by his elevated 'spiritual' status, Jagdeo must have had a field day. Undoubtably, he has dozens of victims, all over the world. These creeps don't stop until they are caught and isolated. Like Cynthia said, educate yourself about the issue. One question for you though, if Rawat is the Perfect Master and all, how come he had such a lowlife scumbag like Jagdeo representing him?

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: Ang To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 18:15:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'If true'? 'ONE victim'? 'alleged victim'? You asshole. Open your closed and pitiful eyes to what your are protecting and worshiping. The closed-mindedness you exhibit can only be done with intense effort and absolute abdication of self and decency. I feel great pity for all followers of this despicable creature and loathing for him.

Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean VICTIM, asshole, and not alleged. And FatAss paid her off bigtime in case you haven't figured that out for yourself. Hopefully this is only the begning and Lard will go bankrupt compensating his victims. And I'm really sick and tired of you pathetic cult apologists standing up for these creeps.

Subject: Maharaji's Continued Money-Grubbing From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:41:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I paid a visit to the website of the 'Prem Rawat Foundation' and discovered the latest attempt by Maharaji to suck even more money out of his followers. As you know, Leaders Magazine did a disgraceful puff piece 'interview' with Maharaji in their magazine, which is given away free to those considered elite enough to get a copy. Actually, the magazine appears to be not much more than a vehicle to get high-end advertising in front of rich people. I would wager that no premie had ever even heard of the magazine prior to the former Lord of the Universe appearing therein and the propogation value is, well, zilch. Anyhow, never one to overlook an opportunity to get money, Maharaji is now offering cult members their very own copy of the Leaders Magazine for a mere $20. Really. $20 for a free magazine. Maharaji, the owner of $7 million yachts and jet planes, is charging $20 for a copy of the damn magazine. You can see for yourself over at the PRF website at www.tprf.org. You know, that's the 'Foundation' that has as its symbol what appears to be the outline of a very buxom woman. I would love to meet the genius who came up with that embarrassing logo. No, wait, I think I know who it might have been, and given what we know about his own sexual behavior, isn't it fitting? Dr. Freud, are you in?

Subject: It's worse than we think. From: AJW To: Joe Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:52:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I've heard all sorts of rumours recently about the dire finances of the cult. Membership is declining. Income is at an all-time low. The dwindling full-time officials are dwindling even more. Some of them, apparently, have decided to take the money and run. If things get much worse, Rawat might even have to fire a few servants and sell one of the family Ferraris. It won't be long before he opens his luxury used car mart on the Pacific coast highway. Anth the conch. (I hear the sea.)

Subject: Re: It's worse than we think. From: Much WerseDoc To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:52:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'all sorts of rumours' ? Oh shit, I thought we was gonna get the juicy facts, man. :( Fuch rumours, what fucking use are they? I herd a rumour that you once taught M's kids. Did you spin them a bunch of rumours too?

Subject: Keep them coming, Doc...:):):) From: Cynthia To: Much WerseDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:54:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm loving your posts lately. You are one great cult supporter! Keep talking, Doc, keep talking.....Oh I'm starting to just love you sooo much! Cynthia Gracie

Subject: I'll try Cyn, I'll try :) From: OverworkeDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:56:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But it's bloody hard work you know!! I dunno, coming up with new and humorous insights on a daily basis.....trying to be vaguely relevant without being insulting. Well, I'm learning, I'm learning....=) But actually, I think the Doc is a bit like a stale biscuit nowadays. He should either be put back in the oven or fed to the dog.;)

Subject: You're an IdiotDoc... [nt] From: Cynthia To: OverworkeDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:38:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Any details Anth?. From: la-ex To: AJW Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 08:20:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Especially on the 'take the money and run' premies? That one, if true, sounds hysterically funny.... Any details you can share at the moment?

Subject: Re: Maharaji's Continued Money-Grubbing From: Inside Edition To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 20:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joe, Over at enjoyinglife.org there is a prominent announcement that 'seats are still available for much of the current European tour' (surprise, surprise, and gee - why no stop in France this year?), so you have to figure he needs to sell the Leaders magazines to make up the difference! (He probably had to buy 10,000 or so to get the 'interview' planted.)

Subject: The Boobs Logo From: Ang To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:55:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, thanks! I thought I was losing it, because everytime I glance at the computer when my husband is in the tprf site, I keep seeing two large boobs. I almost asked him what the heck he was looking at one night, then I realized it was a very 'loose' interpretation of 'PR'. Then I look at the 'tprf' and have to keep a straight face because my kids always call toilet paper, 'tp', and that is what I think of when I see 'tprf'. Pretty accurate, after all, I guess.

Subject: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Cynthia To: Ang Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:54:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Ang To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:59:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ""Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF"" --- Thanks for that clarification! I've heard so much about 'clarity', I could puke, but that was helpful!

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Cynthia To: Ang Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Ang, I think TP is a universal term for toilet paper. What a dummy Rotwat is!

Subject: Re: Toilet Paper Reuse Foundation..TPRF From: Ang To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Rotwat'. That is the best name I've heard for him yet. He seems unable to stick with any one name himself which makes it dificult to konw what to call him at any given time. (Well, I do know, but children might read this.) Rotwat is perfect for the 'perfect master'. Wow, just typing that makes me need to go wash my hands. Bye, and thanks!

Subject: You rang? From: Sigmund Freud To: Joe Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:54:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vell, I will tell what I sink about ziss Rawat fellow. It is ovious from ziss logo you mention that he is truly obsessed with zee breast of woman. I am postulating that ziss individual must be a teenage boy. If he is an adult, then ziss is troubling indeed. Hmmm, he is an adult you say? I've never seen anysing quite like ziss before. Ziss person suffers from advanced megalomania and extreme narcisism. He must have been told from a very young age that he was like God or greater than that even. That trauma coupled with an obvious withdrawal of his Mother's affection which was replaced by adulation of the masses. Ziss worship he interpreted as his Mother's milk and is to this day addicted to it. Further I would suppose he would be drawn to extramarital affairs with an idealized form of woman, say buxom blondes. He probably also is addicted to substances such as nicotine, alcohol and expensive material objects - all in a vain effort to reclaim his lost youth, Father's approval and Mother's love. The only hope for ziss troubled person is to face himself and accept the wounds of his childhood. But I am afraid he is beyond hope. Am I right or am I right? Perhaps if he took a Siggie break instead of a ciggie break, things would improve. :) Siggie the Fraud, er I mean Freud (aka Richard)

Subject: A Question, Doktor Freud... From: Cynthia To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:56:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you think that Mr. Rawat has developed a transference problem with what you describe as the breasts logo? I really believe it is a Rolls Royce logo. I realize some people believe it is an ass logo, too, so perhaps the symbolic interpretations of these three sub-conscious connections to this narcissistic leader's website presents us with more information about this 'guru' than his followers might acknowledge. It is my opinion that he is both obsessed with large breasts and expensive automobiles, in addition to having quite a large rear end. This must explain the $20 charge for a free magazine Leaders which he offers to his followers. An insatiable thirst for material things, which do include his taste for extra large breasts, excessively expensive cars, and his extra-extra large buttocks. Do you agree?

Subject: An answer, Cynthia From: Siggie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 11:28:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah yes. You have obviously taken much notice of zis Rawat person. You have seen subtleties in his character that even I, the great Freud, missed on first inspection of his case. Breasts, buttocks and zee big boy toys. Transference indeed, I applaud your perceptive nature. Furthermore, zee logo itself implies to his followers that, if zay succumb to his charismatic persuasion, zay will nurse at the breast of the Divine Mother and have eternal nourishment. Rubbish, I say. Of course one can only find peace with themself after years of therapy.:) BTW, I am pleased zat you are speaking with me. It was you, I believe, who said I was 'a nightmare for women'. I don't know why you would say that but perhaps we can discuss it over a nice schnapps some time, eh? I hope you wont mind if I smoke a big cigar. Your pal Siggie, who is a shrink but no shrinking violet

Subject: It was the Oedipal Complex, Doktor Freud... From: Cynthia To: Siggie Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:05:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Doktor Freud, I must explain why I said you were a 'nightmare for women' and hope you understand. When you were doing psychoanalysis you found that many of your female analysands were revealing much information about incest in their lives, Herr Freud. You wrote a paper with alarm about this frequency in the female analysands' reports of experiencing sexual abuse. Then when your father died you reversed your opinion, especially when your colleagues looked at your paper on this subject and were aghast at your findings and disagreed with you. You then said the women were fantasizing sex with their fathers! You called it the Oedipal Complex which continues to be believed to this day! Don't you realize Doktor, that this set back the treatment of child abuse victims by many decades? I know that part of your reversal on this subject was due to revelations of incest within inside your own family. However, I must slap your wrists ten times for this cowardly act on your part. I am disappointed that it took so many years for psychologists to recognize the Oedipal Complex was hogwash and that you took the coward's way out. But I know and understand you were quite stimulated by cocaine during your adult life and can forgive you this transgression. Thank you for your offer of schnapps, but I'd prefer something less sweet--cognac, perhaps, and of course you may smoke a cigar, if I can smoke a cigarette. We'll discuss it. I do respect your many other discoveries in the field of psychiatry, Doktor Freud, but you erred in your decision to recant about the reality of incest by establishing the Oedipal Complex theory and I certainly hope you're sorry. That is the only reason I would say you're a nightmare to women. Your cautious friend, Cynthia

Subject: Don't you mean Electra complex...? [nt] From: Neville To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 16:12:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Don't you mean Electra complex...? From: Cynthia To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:59:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, While the Oedipus Complex does refer to boys, it has been used by shrinks to discount reports of sexual abuse in girls and women. The Electra Complex is another of Freud's theories and concerns penis envy, blaming the mother for castrating a girl, who desires to have her father's children, etc.... It's another of Freud's blunders, but you are correct in that it is closely tied to the Oedipal Complex. Electra Complex www.umsl.edu/~mgriffin/psy302/Simokaitis/electra_complex.html

Subject: Re: Electra complex...? From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 15:54:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Isn't the Electra Complex where young women inexplicably have fantasies of driving 60's Buicks? Or maybe I'm thinking of Venus Envy where young guys imagine they are nude, headless, armless and on public display in an art museum. Richard, too complex for me

Subject: Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 16:16:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You make me laugh so much. If I could get you together with my husband and his life-long friend, Brian, the three of you would be cracking each other up. Actually, Brian lives in Tacoma. Maybe I can hook you up. He's a very interesting guy--don't want to reveal to much about him here on F7, but he's famous in Tacoma. He and Tom have been best friends since the 3rd grade and have kept in touch all these years. The only reason Brian ended up in Tacoma is because when Tom was young (and stupid) he got married at age 19 and joined the Air Force in 1973 (he never was sent to Vietnam, but did see a lot of body bags arrive at the Air Force base where he was stationed in Tacoma). Brian moved out west, following Tom after Brian had a difficult relationship breakup, and he married there and has actually lived longer on the west coast then back east. He's a unique man. They get going with puns and...it's unbelievable! But, not a complex. :):)

Subject: Punny you should mention that Cynthia From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:16:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Two of my brothers and myself were recently in a car together. Man, can those guys pun. And of course I try to keep up. Meanwhile, two of the wives were rolling their eyes and praying the pun fest would end. I also had two comic buddy friends in Denver and when my brothers and I get on a roll (or at least open faced) my wife says 'You guys sound just like when you, Lenny and the other Richard used to get together'. Email me with info about Brian. I am just a few miles from Tacoma with a ferry ride in between. Richard, with a NW complex-shun ;)

Subject: Re: Punny you should mention that Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:35:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the wives always roll their eyes because it never stops...but I must admit it's always so enjoyable and funny...like a contest... I'll email you quite soon.... Much love, Cynthia

Subject: Oedipus wrecks From: Siggie To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I sink zat many of my adherents totally misunderstood the Oedipal Complex. I merely intended it as a mythological nod towards a tendency and by no means meant otherwise. Speaking of zee Complex, wasn't zat zee name given to ziss DECA place in Miami? And upon further inquiry, I've noticed photogaphs showing ziss Rawat person learing at his seductively dressed daughter. Don't you think ziss is, how we say therapeuticly speaking, warped behavior? Of course now, it appears he is grooming her to take over zee family business just like he was groomed. What goes around comes around, eh? One more sing (love zat edit feature). Cynthia, you seem so astute in zees matters so I pose another question for you. Don't you sink it rather odd zat a group of grown people would call ziss Rawat person Ze Boss or Ze Client when speaking with zose not involved but refer to him as Dad to each other and even to his face? Freudian Slip, indeed. In fact, zee whole dang closet vass showing. Didn't anyone notice? Many apologies for my inadvertant transgressions and betrayal of women. If I was not already quite dead, I would publicly right zese terrible wrongs. As far as you wanting to slap my wrists - perhaps you could tell me more about ziss most stimulating fantasy of yours. Afterwards, I vill tell you why I luff Jung Girls so much. Siggie, your pal but never a prim pal

Subject: Oedipus wrecks havoc... From: Cynthia To: Siggie Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:36:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doktor Freud, I think you're slipping in your old, or, err, dead age, but the Oedipal Complex was and is used to this day to obfuscate real incest by blaming the victim of child sexual abuse by implying that 'it is not true, but a fantasy,' thereby blaming the victim. Doktor Freud, you may not have been clear about your theory, but your reputation as the ''Father (is that a slip?) of Psychoanalysis'' gave great weight to your Oedipal Complex theory. And for that, I would like to slap your wrists, but I must say by now you're probably too boney to feel anything and I might just take off your hand! My desire to slap your wrist is not a fantasy. Why all this fuss about fantasy, fantasy, fantasy, Herr Freud? It's not a fantasy. If you could stand before me now, I would slap your face but then your head would fall off! Ah, but you are correct; DECA was called the Complex and we referred to Prem Rawat as 'The Client.' Many premies, including myself during my time in Miami/Hialeah, called Prem Rawat 'Dad,' and his wife, 'Mom.' Looking back at those tendencies I do believe it was quite inappropriate but I also called him Lord of the Universe, so which is worse? However, I never wanted sexual relations with him, even though I was quite blonde at the time. I was much to tall for his taste I'm sure and he would never look me in the eyes whenever I was with him...odd, that. I also have seen his daughter dressed up sexual attire while singing to her father and noticed his lurid glances toward her. I agree, Herr Freud, that is VERY warped indeed. Perhaps you could write to Prem Rawat and tell him to stop doing such nasty things. Now, Doktor Freud, I think you should take some time to analyze yourself about your attraction to jung girls as I believe this to be very unhealthy for those girls and not very good for your reputation. You've done enough damage with your Oedipal Complex which is complex enough, why jeopardize your future with such trashy fantasies? Well, I must go offline now, and wish you the best, but you must stay away from those jung girls! Sincerely, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Oedipus wrecks havoc... From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 18:04:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Cynthia. It was fun putting on Siggie's mask and I must say I learned a lot today. Shows what can happen when we play a bit. I think there is much truth in some of our suppositions. Richard

Subject: Me too, Richard... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:57:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to you too. I love your sense of humor...it's much like my husband's and you're a wonder at making puns... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Joy To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 00:56:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Richard and Cynthia, for brightening up my day, I'm in stitches over this thread! Cynthia, you're hilarious (re the slapping of wrists and heads flying off!). For what it's worth, I had a serious fantasy for several years after becoming an ex of wanting to kick Maharaji in the shins. I just kept imagining myself meeting up with him in some manner, and instead of lying flat on the floor and trying to touch or kiss his feet (can you believe we did this to this creep?) I strongly desired to walk up to him and say, 'Maharaji, this is from me for what you did to my life all these years' and give him a good hard kick. Not a slap in the face or a kick in the butt, but a gigantic kick as hard as I can in the leg. Care to analyze that, Dr. Freud?

Subject: Re: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Siggie To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 06:44:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Vell, my dear I voould zay zat your fantasy has deep psychological implications. Yah, perhaps you may need to be in our clinic for some time to undergo treatment. On second thought, ze anzer is quite simple. You were/are really P.O.'d at ziss Rawat. From what I surmise - you are completely justified. Expressing your anger by kicking him in zer leg is obviously an attempt to make him fall to the ground and thus grovel at your feet. Only then will you be free of his grasp. Zo even if ziss kicking and subsequent groveling happens only in your mind, ze result is the same and voila, you are now a free person. I believe ze modern expression is to just kick ze habit. By the way, have you tried Shin Toe Ism? Ze anzer may lie there. :) There is alzo a martial art you could try - Toe Fu. Siggie, who loves a good shindig

Subject: And don't forget Feng Shoey [nt] From: Neville To: Siggie Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:51:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Kick in the Shins fantasy From: Janet To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:09:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: louise hay in her book 'you can heal your life' has a section in the back about the correlation between trouble in parts of the body and metaphysical trouble in parts of our psyches. there is also a correlation to which parts of the body are ruled by which astrological signs. louise hay says that anything focusing on the shins has to do with issues about not being able to move forward. in astrology, the shins are ruled by aquarius, the sign most focused on the future and the inventive, the new, the scientific and unconventional--with a motive of having to do with benefitting the greatest mass of humanity, not specific people, something like the way NASA's needs end up being used to create new products that are useful to everyone. invention, science, discovery for its own sake, irrespective of persons. so wanting to kick the fatboy in the shins might be indicative of expressing rage and wrath at his holding us back, his antipathy toward individual genius, his stalling a mass of followers in an ancient, backward practice and intentionally deterring them from using their minds, their unique individual drive to explore and invent and question and create with impersonal betterment of the race as their motive. in my first internet incarnation, I was known as 'flawedgenius' which some troll in my first chatroom caricatured into fraudgenius. so perhaps i may answer you under the name --Doctor Fraud Genius thats the best i can give you. it's *something*.

Subject: Dr. Ron Geaves From: Joe To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:31:31 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi Everyone, I looked in the archives and found a thread posted by Patrick W. that Dr. Ron Geaves gave some kind of presentation of a paper he wrote on the Maharaji Cult. I read that Patrick, or perhaps another ex-premie, spoke with another academic who attended this presentation and was surprised that Dr. Geaves did not disclose that he was a member of the Maharaji Cult. Has anyone followed up on this, or dicussed this with Dr. Geaves? I also notice that Dr. Geaves has never responded to the questions we raised, as discussed on the EPO website, about his participation in the very distorted video, 'Passages' put out by the cult, as well as his distorted statements therein. A search on Google for 'Ron Geaves' now shows that section of the EPO website as the first entry. Has anyone heard anything more about this? Joe

Subject: Oh Livia! From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 19:03:12 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: Livia, could you email me please? Thanks, Marianne

Subject: To Marianne From: Livia To: Marianne Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:03:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, I've just emailed you. Love, Livia

Subject: To Livia From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 12:52:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, Thanks for your post below. You are obviously a nicer person than I am (I'm serious). Call me naive if you want but I still think prisoners - who after all are human beings just like us - can benefit from meditation. As for Mickey, the more out of touch with Reality anyone seems, the more I marvel at the ingenuity with which divinity hides in order to seek itself.

Subject: I don't feel like being kind to you Dep... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 09:01:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you try getting your head out of your ass and breath some fresh air...it might get the shit out of your brain. You take up a lot of space here with your crappy ideas, too. Get well, Cynthia

Subject: So long skank! From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 18:32:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Come on, Dep From: gerry To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 20:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: To Dep From: Livia To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, thanks for your post above. I don't know about being a nicer person, I just think clarity is really important and genuine kindness of an ultimately higher order than the kind of transcendentalism that doesn't necessarily of itself lead to (genuine) kindness. And I think you know this too, deep down. As for prisoners benefitting from meditation, I don't know. It probably depends on the prisoner and the meditation you're offering. If the report you quoted from came from an organisation that is pro-meditation, I wouldn't be too gung-ho over their conclusions. How about a completely non-biased report? And as someone said below, if you're really sure that meditation can help prisoners, why not set something up yourself? If you don't feel qualified to go and teach them yourself, why not find a group whose meditation you respect, such as a Buddhist group, and see if you can get them to liase with your local prison? You could then possibly visit the prisoners before and after they've started meditating (if they want to take up meditation) and find out for yourself how they've got on with it. I would imagine that it might benefit some but not all - some may be just too mentally damaged and disturbed to be able to focus. It would probably depend on what they're doing time for and how long they've been inside - all sorts of factors, but it could be worth a try, couldn't it? What do you think? Best regards, Livia

Subject: Thanks to the Troll Patrol From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 16:03:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A hearty thanks to the person(s) who just filtered out the trolls. I noticed troll droppings have been swept up. I don't mind someone sharing opinions contrary to mine but these trolls waste everyone's time including their own. I'm certain they will feel justified to run back to Life is So Freakin'Great or whatever their password protected inner sanctum is called and whine about how mean Ex's are. That is if they are even allowed a password over there. If trolls realized that they besmirch Pr's good(?) name every time they pull a prank, they'd stop posting here and go back to pulling wings off flies.

Subject: Trolls on the loose..... From: Ang To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:44:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Trolls on the loose....it's kind of like the sewers backing up, isn't it?

Subject: Re: Thanks to the Troll Patrol From: Cat To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:53:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Take no credit for my abscence. I am far too busy at the moment to bother with you lot. Besides ,leaving you to your own resources clearly demonstrates what a waste of space you really are Cheers The Cat

Subject: you inflate your importance From: janet To: Cat Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:15:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: we weren't referring to you in the remotest. go back to work.

Subject: Thanks for sharing, Cat From: Richard To: Cat Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 17:36:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...but I don't think anyone was referring to you at all - I certainly wasn't. If you need to believe you are constantly in our thoughts, go ahead and amuse yourself. A question: Is it true that arti will be sung and darshan held in Amaroo this September or are those just crazy Hindu rituals from the past? A yes or no will suffice. And if you think this is a waste of space . . . Just Walk!

Subject: Re: Thanks for sharing, Cat From: Miaow To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:44:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh but I did and no , this year we are having a 'flying pranam ' contest. Contestants get a good 50m run-up and must be able to land belly first, head down screaming 'Where the Hell is Heller!!!' :)

Subject: Funny one, Cat From: Richard To: Miaow Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 06:56:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Flying Pranam Contest - LOL :) Surely you must know, the Great Heller only manifests himself in times of dire need. As the empire of the former Satguru fades into the mists, Heller has withdrawn his awesome powers of Logic. Perhaps even now he is manifesting in Dick Cheney's world to bring justice there or some other place of irrational behavior. It's been lovely chatting with you (your name here). Do enjoy the flying pranam contest and don't forget your crash helmet as you will inevitably need it.

Subject: Amaroo 2002 From: Inside Edition To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 20:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Let's go all the way, premies - charnamrit and prashad for everybody, immediately following darshan and arti!

Subject: Besmirch PR's good name? From: AmazeDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 21:29:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on Forum seven?? Are you completely crazy?? What do you think this is - a stupid Public Relations war? How far detached have you become from reality brother? Is Brittany Spears your ball park recognition yardstick? This is just the point you miss.... Maharaji's good name amongst bitter fearful doubters? Ha fucking ha!

Subject: PR for PR From: Richard To: AmazeDoc Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 22:22:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have no idea what you are talking about. I am not in the least a bitter or fearful person. Nor are any of the people I know who post here. Why should I be? I've made choices in my life and taken responsibility for all of them. And through that process, I've learned to live a full and loving life. Too bad that can't be said for PR because it takes a brave and honest person to face oneself and accept what one finds. As for my comment about besmirching PR's name, why in the world would a premie/pwsk/student come here and act like a fool? It can do nothing but reflect poorly on the Guru/Master/Teacher/Foundation Leader. Occasionaly a thinking premie does come by for a chat and I respect them for that because open civil conversation can only make us all a bit more informed. As for your dismissing the importance of public relations (aka PR), precisely why was a PR firm retained by M in the first place if PR hadn't become an issue? And it is laughable to think that the crown jewel of the vaunted PR firm's efforts was a puff piece in Leaders. Now the Maharishi on Larry King Live - that was PR. Of course King does ask real questions that could prove too difficult for PR. After all, he isn't even comfortable being asked if he practices K regularly. Yes, that did happen in Philadelphia which was the last Q&A session held. Bitter? Naah. I just tell the truth faster and have more fun per hour. Richard, who only needs one name because he's secure in life and has no need to constantly reinvent himself in hopes of finding a workable identity

Subject: Well said, Rich From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 08:34:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, who only needs one name because he's secure in life and has no need to constantly reinvent himself in hopes of finding a workable identity Heh.

Subject: Re: Well said, Rich From: FrankDoc To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:21:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tell me Scott 'Of gargantum intellectual importance' Talkalot... When you are alone with Mrs Talkalot, do you take of your face and reveal your mask? Doc - who knows perfectly well that all the masks here are fake.

Subject: Jolly good Richard From: Docofmanynames To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 00:55:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes. I think you have pretty much convinced us all now ;)

Subject: To Docofholyname From: Richard To: Docofmanynames Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 08:36:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent attitude, David. Now simply send along a substantial gift of gratitude and I will know you are sincere. ;) To be clear, I have no investment in being right about anything I say here. Nor do I care whether you or anyone else is persuaded to see things my way. That would make me the same as a certain authoritarian leader which I no longer respect or have use for. I say what I know and others here do likewise. We each then decide for ourselves what is true for us and how to proceed in life. Happy trails, Doc.

Subject: I'll grant you... From: Well MergeDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:38:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Richard, you are certainly more polite and gentlemany than many on these boards. But hey, 'DetectorDoc' can still see a slight, if well concealed agression towards your former beloved in your posts and also a slight but well merged contempt for those of us blind dummies still caught in the divine rat-trap. It's all very well for you guys, who are free, to take pot shots at us still enclosed in the fishbowl. But take my example...how can I escape when every time a cheque from my family trust comes through it all gets blown on ten people's tentsites and fine dining bookings at the rock? Twice a year this happens! Is keeping cult members poor one of the ways cult operatives persuade people from escaping? Maybe I need to investigate other cults. Doc - who will knock on Richard's door for comfort if and when he escapes.

Subject: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: gerry To: Well MergeDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 07:15:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because 'Doc' is an insincere, lying, abusive game player and a dyed in the wool gurunoid who's only purpose in posting on an ex-premie forum is to disrupt and distract. Bye, bye Cerise, don't let the elephants trample you...

Subject: Gerry, please don't block the Doc! From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He really is much more of a help to us than a hindrance. I mean this. You know I can't stand this guy, but when I think about it, whenever he comes here he reflects his Master Perfectly! I'm serious...think about it... Love, Cynthia

Subject: BBBrrrriiiinnnnGGGG!!! Mr Lying ;) From: WideBoyDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 01:53:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Time to stop dreaming Trailer Tom Now, awake? Ok. You know very well gezza, that you.... Can NOT Block The Doc And considering the truth of that well known reality...think yourself bloody lucky I am being so polite and amenable these days. However, if you are in dire need of some aggression to justify your dark prejudice....I can change to suit your mood ~) Good for Pat, Richard and the others for recognising a perfectly reasonable and polite poster when they see him:)

Subject: I never said you were polite From: Richard To: WideBoyDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:00:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never said you were polite, but did say I saw a bit of self-directed humor which provides a glimmer of humanity lurking within inside. That is the only reason I chose to break my vow of never conversing with ghosts. I should have stuck with that plan because, in the above post, you reveal much of your true 'character' that lies beneath the thin veneer of bliss. Anyone who posts insults and threats, veiled or otherwise, gets no respect from me. You do appear to be the perfect living example of your teacher's priveledged and smug indifference to matters of basic humanity. I'm sure he's very proud of you. You'll be very happy together as the years go on. And best of luck in the upcoming Flying Darshan Contest at Amaroo. You deserve a first place ribbon. ;) Richard, renewing my vow of talking with the birds instead of ghosts because at least the birds make sense

Subject: true 'character' that lies beneath the From: BoreDoc To: Richard Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 05:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bliss, mask, veil, pretense yea yera yea, that's the standard stock cliche that you guys all come up with whenever a person asserts themselves around here. What are you guys made of, wet tissue paper? And where in heaven's name did you get the idea that bliss and spirited expression are mutually exclusive? Man, you must be one wild and crazy barrel of fun to hang around ;)

Subject: Re: I never said you were polite From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:45:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, Good post. I have a personal issue with this troll so please excuse anything I write to him here. He and wonder woman over at LG ripped me a new one very recently and I'm having fun with this very strange, right-hand man to the big Boss by being a cyber-stalking, disruptive troll who has personal agya from you know who to do his dirty work here. I have a mission! But not at LG, oh no...not at Life's Most Grating People. It might be here or at Symp, so bear with me please... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Cynthia, I support you From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 14:47:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so bear with me please... I support you and your right to arm bears. ;) If he's doing this as a mission from PR, they're both way off the mark. As you said, with posters like that, it's obvious where devotion and SK leads. Richard, unbearably polite

Subject: Your kindness is unbearable... From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 11:07:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have bears on the brain. We've got one living VERY close to us with cubs. Plus we've been talking about them to our neighbors and friends. You are so kind, Richard. I still plan to email you soon. Just want to make contact with Brian first. Much Love Cynthia

Subject: Whale of a tail - OT From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:29:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We have been watching teary-eyed as our beloved orphaned Orca whale is being returned from waters near us to her pod in Canada. They put her on a jet catamaran yesterday and expect to reunite her with her family soon. You may have seen this story as it's been covered nationally. She had been hanging around our island ferry dock since January and we enjoyed watching her leap about. Her mom died a year ago and it is assumed she got left behind when the pod migrated and she wandered off. She had some health problems that slowed her down but has fully recovered now. While in re-hab, they played songs of her home pod to help her become more familiar with their language patterns. It will be sweet to see her back amongst similar beings. Richard, a fluke of nature but never a breach of trust

Subject: Whale Link - OT From: Richard To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 14:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's a link to the story of Springer the orphaned Orca's return home. There's also a link from that page to one about the guy who she's most comfortable with. They call him the Whale Whisperer for his ability to intuit her situation and calm her. Now if we could just find a Terrorist Whisperer to calm down the zealot suicide bombers, we'd have something. Richard, thinking now this probably should be on Symposium Springer the Orca www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/07/14/orca.rescue/index.html

Subject: jekyll & hydedoc From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:18:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...does seem to have settled down into being one persona of late,so as Richard says below,let him be. I reckon Mr.Roupell is getting damned close to that ghastly Monday morning feeling....the one where you kind of wake up 10 mins before the alarm clock goes off but turn back over.......then it's BRIIIING. Shit,time to wake up.

Subject: Re: jekyll & hydedoc From: gerry To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 16:37:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: Richard To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:08:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't recall ever even replying to DR/Doc before now but, eternal optimist that I am, I recognize a spark of self-inflicted humor in his posts above. Flying Pranam Contest and support of low income pwks were spoofs on the ex viewpoint but funny still. That said, his basic MO is smirky drive-by insults in hopes of minimizing the sting of the truth told here. Come on DR, stop sputtering. You know truth is spoken here and no one wears a mask as you suggest. Who is DR/Doc anyway? And Doc, heal thyself before it's too late, too late. Speaking of self-inflicted humor, in my heyday of Servicing the Satguru, the only way my psyche could survive was humor. Example sung to the tune of Dylan's classic: Oh Murahgee, can this really be the end? I'm stuck inside the ashram, with the darshan blues again. Richard, not giving up the day job

Subject: Re: I'm seriously thinking of blocking 'Doc' From: Cynthia To: Richard Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:06:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Richard, I don't agree that Doc is being humorous although I can understand that there could be a glimmer of humor in his posts. Please don't forget that he is a pal of Prem Pal and they have meetings during which they discuss his tactics about how to disrupt the forum. Plus, he has money so he's quite free to do as he pleases. Also, he's been quite abusive to me in particular. I try to not take the bait, but even when I have written sincere stuff on LG he and the new woman-boss over on LG come back full force with vigorous nonsensical, but vile responses. I wish I could be optimistic as you are in many ways, but on this one, I'd love to see him blocked. He truly believes he's superior and knows how to word things to obfuscate issues. Think about it...;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: To Richard: I Recant! From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just been thinking about the 'Doc' and I think he should be allowed to stay. See my posts above about him to Gerry and to him. He's a great example of a cult member.

Subject: Hey Folks, Try Forum 8! From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 12:09:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's up and running and not as daunting as some might think. Just log-in, choose a user password and play around till you get used to it. It's cool. Give a try and the best part is that Roupell says he'll NEVER go there! HooHoo! Hamzen and Chuck did a lot of tweaking to make it user friendly. And don't worry, you can't break anything... Love, Cynth Forum 8 www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Not as much fun for surfing From: Joy To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 14:35:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It took ages to load on my slightly older Mac (a major drag if you want to check in several times a day), and while colorful and cute, I found it kind of confusing to surf the threads. I guess I'm a 'Forum Surfer', I like to pull up the list and just scroll down till something takes my fancy to read (and oftentimes just reading the titles of posts is as good as the posts themselves). That list seemed sort of too busy to make sense of, perhaps it's the size of the type? It's nicer if the posts can just all sit in a nice, logical row like F7. I hope this isn't going to be the wave of the future and it's just for fun? I like this one better, it's more straightforward, sorry to be a party-pooper.

Subject: have to agree From: Livia To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 14:48:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yep, I have to agree. I just can't see the problem with the format here - I think it's great just as it it - simple, clear and ungimmicky. It's easy to load up, easy to see what a thread's all about, quick to scroll down and see what's been happening - I just like it here and if it aint broke why fix it? As long as this forum stays intact though, fine! Livia the Luddite

Subject: I think there are many reasons... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 22:42:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...as Chuck mentioned below. One is money. The other is password protection. I agree that it looks different and has a few gliches. I guess I'm just trying to help out Gerry to get people to at least try it a bit before rejecting it completely. :) Cynthia

Subject: Some important considerations... From: Chuck S. To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 11:38:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are some reasons for considering another forum host. 1.) Hotboards costs money. Monthy bills can often run upwards of $100.00. Anyboards (forum 8 )is absolutey free. 2.) At various times, forum 7 has been disrupted by anonymous trolls, and various persons pretending to be other people. Password protection would be one way of guarding against this, without requiring the FA to be spending so much of his time doing troll control. Anyboards offers other tools as well that make administration easier. 3.) Anyboards allows media files to be included in posts, such as sound an picture files, and allows customizable icons, and many more customisable features, that make it potentially more fun. Now if anyboards has serious flaws, they need to be talked about. If there are ways to make it better, they need to be done. But even if most folks decide they would rather stay with Hotboards because of it's simple design, I would have to say that there are other forum hosts like this one at Voy.com, that are also simple to use, and offer the same features that hotboards does, without the cost. I like the design interface of hotboards too, but there are other forums with similar designs, and one can get used to them very quickly. So I think there are some valid reasons for at least considering other forums.

Subject: that's true From: Dockingout To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 22:06:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and neither will half the experienced surfers of cyberspace bother with it either. The unexperienced will just get lost immediately. Only a blind fool could not help but notice how ugly and cruddy it is compared even to this el cheap notice board. It's like taking someone using a Mac G5 and putting them back on a ZX80. Only the dumbest ass computer user will cheer. But it will serve to enhance the implosion of the ever Shrinking Violet cult of confusion. So in that sense...It's absolutely perfect!

Subject: sooo stylish as usual, yawn (nt) From: hamzen To: Dockingout Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 14:20:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yea, but point well proved eh? From: StyleDoc To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Truth may be unwelcome..... But it still rings true blue, ...even for the blind and foolish!!:)

Subject: New-old Brit press cuts on EPO From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:03:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Little earthly problems for the Divine Guru A collection of British press cuts 1971-72. Guru Ji Superstar, Boy Guru in Cash Probe, Ji Whizz Kid!, Guru, 14, takes all, Guru's flower power, etc

Subject: Have you read these? From: Hey Glen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 13:12:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gotta make you think, mate. Maybe it is a cult afterall. 'We understand that he is lord.' Come on now lad, suck it up and bale out while you still have some integrity left. We're pullin' for ye down here at the pub.

Subject: Memories are made of this. [nt] From: Neville To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:35:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I love the headlines, J-M...:) From: Cynthia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jean-Michel, Thanks for putting these up...the articles are quite telling...

Subject: The Troll(s) From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:53:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all, It appears that the Djuro Troll has obtained another IP. Please don't feed it...it's fruitless and a waste of time. Thanks! Cynthia

Subject: Re: The Troll(s) From: PatD To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 13:56:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: beats me why these people persist.I mean if they want to carry on believing whatever it is they can't put into words,why don't they just go & do it. The whole point of the internet is putting things into words & connecting people with a common background, who otherwise would never meet, & who in our little corner of it might very well have gone through life thinking now & then,'shit, that little fat god fucker I used to be into,maybe I've blown it with the cosmos,maybe he was the Perfect Master after all',& so on & so forth. No,the troll agenda is to confuse free speech & cover up the reality of the man who used to be the Lord of the Universe. The only technology he's never been able to turn to his own advantage.

Subject: Re: The Troll(s) From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 13:04:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cynthia - online simultaneously I see! Thanks for the warning about trolls such as Djuro - I'm sure you're right really but it's so tempting to try and sock it to 'em.. Glad to see you're on great posting form and hope all's well with you otherwise. Good days on this forum, no? Love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Hi Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 14:21:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yup, it's been good here... I know it's tempting to talk to the trolls, but this one in particular is beyond all communication. Usually it just talks to itself, but once it gets a response, forget about it! Love, Cynthia

Subject: Ah, the sweet maidens... From: TrollslayerDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 21:19:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ..of love and light. Dancing and enchanting as always, with their grace and goodwill extending to all mankind from their magical secret garden of Eden. It was many moons ago when the flower children of love gathered in Golden Gate Park in late 1967. So young, innocent, open and pure in heart. To those who have held the dream, I salute you with all my being, my unbeing and all that is that. Alas, for some, it has just been A long day's journey into night. :(

Subject: What has Maharaji Done? From: Cynthia To: TrollslayerDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 10:43:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Eugene O'Neill won the Nobel Prize and FOUR Pulitzer Prizes. What has Maharaji done beside receiving the keys to a few cities and sucking money out of premies? Has he publicly achieved anything or won public attention or recognition of anything he's ever done in his life that comes close to O'Neill? I don't think so. O'Neill died on November 27, 1953. Ignoring his instructions, his widow [Carlotta] allowed 'Long Day's Journey Into Night' to be published in 1955 and produced the following year. The New York production, directed by José Quintero with Frederic March and Florence Eldridge as the elder Tyrones, Jason Robards, Jr., as Jamie, and Bradford Dillman as Edmund, brought O'Neill a posthumous Pulitzer Prize, his fourth. In dedicating 'Long Day's Journey Into Night' to Carlotta, O'Neill had thanked her for giving him 'the faith in love that enabled me to face my dead at last and write this play -- write it with deep pity and understanding and forgiveness for all the four haunted Tyrones.' Of course, it was understood that the Tyrones were really the O'Neills, his father, mother, brother, and himself. Having drawn on his own life experiences in somewhat disguised form to write his earlier plays, O'Neill all but dropped the masks in 'Long Day's Journey Into Night.' The few liberties he took with the history of his tormented family only deepened the impact of what he called 'this play of old sorrow, written in tears and blood.' (My emphasis) From PBS review of the play. Thanks for the compliment Doc. Cynthia

Subject: Pointed us to Alladin's Cave From: DreamerDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:54:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Then gave us the key to the door. And then showed us where the treasure chest was sitting. And then gave us the combination numbers. Then gave us a suitcase to fill up and take away. And then, after we got back to our home town - he showed us how to go back and do it all again... ...All our dreams come true!!

Subject: Yup, it's a Cave All Right... From: Cynthia To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:28:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's the matter with you other than the fact your head's so far up Maharaji's rear-end you can't possibly see the light of day? Don't think for one second that exes here don't see through your games. You have Agya direct from the Feet? I think so... Well, Maharaji will be de-Feeted soon so keep it up...you are a great example of the true nature of your Lord and by posting here and you're a wonderful help to our cause. Truly. Sincerely. Don't forget, exes now out-number you guru worshippers! By all means, please stay here, you're helping us out quite a lot. Thanks for all your help, Doc, keep right on coming back... I'm so grateful to you, it's like, you know, hmmmm, it's like, you know...you can't put this experience of how helpful you are into to words. Gawd, Life is so Great!

Subject: hey DickheaDoc From: gerry To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:55:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ask CD why I'm blocked from his forum, please. And get me unblocked or get lost...

Subject: Gee, you must have limited dreams [nt] From: Neville To: DreamerDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 02:31:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Keeping the dream alive From: Richard To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 11:48:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice take on an smarmy drive-by comment, Cynthia. Much has been said here about the fact that M capitalized on our ideals and passions for world peace. Much love, focus and many resources were brought to the party and squandered by M on his own vanity. It is up to each person to keep alive their own dreams of fulfillment and helping the world to be a better place. It's still a long day and night's journey into day. Richard

Subject: Journey to the End of the Night From: Anthony To: Richard Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 01:49:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The haunting title of O'Neill's play, A Long Days's Journey into Night, always reminds me of another: Journey to the End of the Night, by Céline, a French anti-war novel of WW1 (the title is taken from the marching song of the Swiss Guards of the French kings). Back in 1979, I wrote a story about Maharaji, and borrowed Céline's title for one of the chapters. I dug it out last night, to take a look. I still find it beautiful, after all these years, and despite all the revelations since. I can't help but reproduce the chapter in question, as it says a lot about the spirit of the day. Chapter Three: Journey to the End of the Night That night children all over the city lay wakefully in their beds, unable to sleep for a wild expectancy which filled them and told them to be ready for something to happen, though none of them knew exactly what this would be. Doors and windows which might have been left unlocked were fast tonight due to the impression on the city that the bird maker had made that afternoon. People had been frightened and mystified by the events and word of them had spread round the whole of the city so that in a very short time everyone was full of them. The city guard was said to be on the look-out for the stranger to answer charges of disturbing the peace, but so far all searches had completely failed to discover any trace of him. In the meantime the city was abuzz with wild rumours of a stranger who brought model birds to life and had threatened to steal all of the children. People who had not been down at the harbour at the time in question laughed at the fears of those who had, and explained the whole affair as trickery by some master magician. But since all the witnesses clung so fiercely to their story, even the sceptics had become uneasy and thought it wise to lock up tight till the morning. The children lay restively awake, starting at every small sound, certain that the moment of destiny had come. A great silence had settled over the city and the watchman’s bell could be heard faintly chiming out midnight. And then the children heard the fluting of a night-bird that drifted like a pale dream over the city and slipped under bedroom doors or through the cracks in window shutters. Then, rising from their beds, the children dressed in their warmest clothes and cloaks, and, finding house doors mysteriously open, went hand in hand through the crystal-lit streets, brothers and sisters each helping the other and joining with friends, so that from all over town, from the richest to the very poorest quarters, groups of children hurried to follow the bird maker’s call which wove over roofs and through alleys and wide streets down to the quay. The moon cast her radiance over the empty market-place, so that it shone like a white deserted ballroom and coated the dark sea which sighed in carress onto the shore, and rippled down masts and rigging of the ships rocking at anchor like cradles. And the waves danced their whispering dance of the night to the stars, and the stars spilled their light to the square. And there, in the centre of the square, a dark figure casting a long dark shadow across the pale marble paving, stood the bird maker, his flute held sideways to his lips by his arms raised like delicate flowers, his long hair flowing from his slightly tilted head, his cloak swaying in the breeze, and resting on one leg with the other gently crooked across it. The music rose from his flute, a long song that might have come from beyond the stars, and it seemed the whole of the night scene, the market-place, the moon and the stars, were dancing to its tune, and the arriving children were the final actors in the scene, and the bird maker stood there moving slightly, like a statue of a god which has come to life. * * * * * When all of the children were gathered in front of him - some hundreds of them, huddled in smaller groups within the group, little boys and girls in warm woollen smocks and dresses and wrapped in warm cloaks, holding fast to each other’s hands, none of them much older than their eleventh or twelfth year - the bird maker ceased his playing, and, gazing at them began to speak. “I am the bird maker who from the clay of this world makes birds to come forth, and I have come to take you on a journey to the end of the night. This night you will leave behind you everything you have owned in this world - to you it is nothing now and will serve only to weight you from flying. “I am the bird maker who makes birds from those who come to him only with love. This night I open to you my world, because without knowing me you have loved me. Who is ready to leave the world he knows to fly with the bird maker?” To the children it was as if they stood within a garden which included the sea and the sky and the market-place, and that he was the choicest of flowers which unconsciously filled the night with the beauty of his fragrance. They stood in silence poised between worlds, with the step between them already beneath their feet, and yet the decision to cross that step had already been made an age ago, as if all the events of their short lives had been only to bring them here, to a moon-lit square where the bird maker stood silently awaiting their reply. No one spoke, and he, knowing the answer of their hearts, turned his back to them, and they saw him raise his flute to his lips and begin to play. And as he did so, to each child the knowledge of how to fly returned like a mystery we have so long been trying to unravel, when the solution slides into our heads so easily the only surprise is that we did not see the answer before. All eyes were fixed on the bird maker’s raven hair and his cloak which swathed him in folds to his feet. His music played the end of time, and without having realized it, though it was no surprise when they did, the children were flying slowly through the air, passing the marble stairway to the water’s edge, and now out to the open sea. A silence embraced the whole of the city, and looking down below them, the children saw the night watch leaning on their spears and slumped against the walls of their harbour fortress, as if a sudden sleep had overcome them. Over the silent ships they flew, which receded all the time in size till they bobbed at anchor like children’s toy boats, and the city itself was a model of dolls’ houses. The last they saw were the crystal lights on the monstrous stone beasts which sat at the ends of the piers to guard the harbour. And what a poet in a city attic writing by crystal light in the watches of the night might have taken for a flock of wild swans passing between himself and the moon was the children flying to the bird maker’s flute. The children looked down and back and saw a small cluster of lights on a faint dark shore and they looked in front of them and above and they saw only the moon and the stars and beyond them only the limitless sky. The children were lost in the immensity of the night. They had taken the final step. They had entered the bird maker’s world. * * * * * On and on they flew, their hair and cloaks streaming freely and they gripped each other’s hands warmly, so that each child knew he flew among brothers and sisters, though each journeyed alone. And ever the bird maker flew at the head, playing his flute, and the music played out as if it belonged here and spread through space to the distant stars, as if its essence was the light that gleamed from them. They flew straight towards the moon, and what the children had been taught was a dead rock was really the white world of the moon goddess. She sat by a spinning wheel on a crystal terrace in her lunar palace, in her silken dress which swathed her to her feet and her silvered hair flowed to her waist. And her radiance streamed out and through her terraces and gardens with their banks of white orchids and blooms and bowers of crystal and moon lakes such as the children had seen only in dreams and journeyed like a white song to the voyagers of the night. She turned her face towards them and they saw she was as comely as a moon beam with features of delicate ivory and she raised her arms like graceful ivory flowers and cried in supplication to the bird maker: “0 bird maker, bird maker why must you wander? Stay with me in my palace of marble by my fountains of crystal and spin moon beams with me!” But he called back to her, saying: “0 Luna, Luna, I cannot stay. I must fly with the children to the end of the night!” And the night formation passed on. To the children it was easy to fly. Indeed, they had flown before. In dreams they had known what it is to be wingèd, and anyone who has loved with unreasoning love the world of which he is part, he too has flown, and the sky reaches down to raise him. And the children had left behind the people they had been, like taking off a suit of dirty clothes to which we have clung so fiercely for so long, and like butterflies which shed their crysalid home, they spread their wings and dissolved in the bliss of flight. And so they came to the white wanderer, the planet of mystery and beauty, twin soul to their own world, and what they had been taught was a dead rock floating in a pool of emptiness was a world of beautiful mysterious people. They lived in a world of green pastures and laughing blue rivers and green woods and flowers of the fields, and here was freedom such as one might know after a lifetime of hardship and tribulation. White dwellings stood in the fields, beautiful, simple, seamless buildings, and the people wandered in groups along the riverbanks in their simple white robes and their faces beamed purity and happiness. And animals and people played together and the flowers and animals and waters spoke to them in love, and music played through everything and was the love that bound them, and the music played from the bird maker’s flute. And the bird maker and the children flew close to them and they laughed and sang and danced to his music. The children and the people embraced one another and they sang with the flowers and the spirits which dwelt in the rocks and springs. The children knew the people - in dreams when leaving their worldly bodies behind they had travelled here and met old friends, and, waking in the morning they had kept but a mere impression of loving reunion which had dissolved into the day. And the people danced round the bird maker and all the animals flocked to him and the flowers craned their heads towards him and the sprites came out of the rocks and springs, and even the blue waters tried to flow towards him. And they all cried out to him: “0 bird maker, bird maker, why must you wander? Stay with us in our valleys of green and weave the white flowers in the garlands of springtime!” But he said to them gently, as if it pained him: “Alas, alas, I may not stay. I must fly with the children to the end of the night!” And after everyone had bid farewell, the night formation sped away again, and after many a backward glance and wave they turned their faces upward through the boundless sky to the next stage of their flight. And so they came to the ringèd planet, and what they had been taught was bands of fire around a burning ball of’ coloured gas was a never-ending spiral of golden wingèd beings which circled round a world in the process of creation. Here was rock and plant and waters filled with a wish to form into order and the seraphim sang the mystery of glorious creation out of nothing but a thought. And the music that filled their lips was that which poured from the bird maker’s flute and he led the children in wheeling flight ever upward through the circling arcs of wingèd kind and he played the creation of lakes and seas and the separation of the elements and the formation of fertile ground from eroded matter, and the laying down of the stuff of life from chemical and water, and plants thrust forth and covered the ground and separated in the miracle of life into a million growing forms, and virgin fern-lined forest clad what had been dead wasteland and ever the life spread in the ecstasy of birth. And the bird maker swept over the land and a million forest flowers lifted their faces to him and he blew form and colour and beauty into them and their scent was like nectar that filled the air and he played birds in many-coloured plumage to drink of that nectar and to soar in rhapsodic flight. And he placed creatures into the seas and made forest-clung mountains to rise from the plains and folded the ground into luscious valleys to nourish kingdoms of animals, and rivers without end wound and meandered in that first morning in paradise, and he set the seraphim to watch over the land until a man might live there. And the seraphim filled the valleys and hills and with the plants and birds and animals called out to the bird maker, saying: “0 bird maker, bird maker, we beg you to stay. Play into us love so that life will always be with us!” And he raised his flute once more and played love into the hearts of every living thing there. And the love that he played flowed back to him, so that he wept and called: “Forgive me, forgive me, but I cannot stay. I must take the children to the end of the night!” Then with a whirl he led the children in spiralling flight and beneath them white cloud formed and blue sky, and the sun turned her gaze to the new creation and sent out to it mother-light and warmth. On and on and up and up the night formation flew, and the bird maker played the death of stars and the transference of life to others. Mid everywhere they flew the golden armies of winged folk would fly to them and implore the bird maker to stay with them on their home stars. And he, unable to refuse any supplication made to him in love, led the children many times in descending flight and they briefly stayed to dance and sing and the boys and girls were treated as wonderful guests and arrayed with garlands of exotic blooms and they journeyed with the wingèd folk around their stars and saw the magic of their worlds. The wingèd ones would sing to the wonder of the thought which had created them, but when the children asked as to what that thought might be, they would only smile and shake their heads and lovingly say: “Ah, that is a secret which is not ours to tell.” Upwards and upward through the limitless night the bird maker led the children until in the distance they saw a golden circle which glowed like the heart of a fire. Nearer and nearer they flew until the golden light surrounded them entirely and in a breathless awe which filled their hearts, the children knew that their journey was at an end. At that moment the bird maker ceased his playing and turned to them and said with great love, so that all they felt was ecstasy: “Little children, we have come to the end of the night.” They stood at the bottom of a golden stairway that led upwards in greater and greater brilliance as far as the eye could see. Clouds swirled at the sides of the stairway, great white banks suffused with golden light, and more shafts of the same light flowed down the staircase to the children. At either side of the golden stairs, and on the clouds, stood wingèd guides, and light flowed from them as though they were part of it. At the top of the stairway was only light endlessly brighter which merged into a core of white so pure as to transform everything which regarded it into its own limitless perfection. The children resonated to the bird maker’s music which was all around them and which merged with the light so there was no longer any distinction between them. They stood on the shoreline of a country so familiar, as though they had crossed a timeless ocean to arrive back at a homeland they had left an age or a moment before. The bird maker looked at them and his eyes seemed to meet those of each boy and girl present as he gently asked: “Are you ready for the final stage of our flight?” Each boy and girl standing silently before the bird maker felt suddenly so vulnerable, as if to this point he or she had felt at least partially in control of their flight. But after this point there was nothing and they had long ceased to have any ability to control their destiny. This was the point where their only help could be the warm comforting hand of a friend and guide. To their ears then came these magic words: “Do you think I could bring you so far only to leave you here? In love you came to me and that love has bound us forever. Those who give themselves .to the bird maker are his forever and he is in them and they are in him.” Then each child knew he had found his friend and guide. Upwards they flew and plunged into that light, and thereafter there was no they, but only the bird maker, and not even the bird maker as they had known him but only light in which each soul gave up the burden of separation and lost itself in a delirium of ecstatic surrender. And drowning into that sea of blissful delivery was only light and love and music playing. And then there was plunging but gentle descent in which the wind whistled past and darkness through which the stars reappeared and shone with the loveliness of flowers awakening in the morning and the slow reforming of each child from being into thought, and the reborn children entered the atmosphere of their world like the first thought that had ever taken place in the universal consciousness. There in front of them lay the shoreline of their country and the waves of their sea, and in the dawning the tones of sea and sky and field and hill emerged as the first colours ever painted in this, the first day of their creation. The children descended like small balls of light and found themselves seated on a hillside looking down onto the city, whose golden roofs reflected the first rays of the rising sun. The children saw the miraculous rebirth of life which takes place every day with the dawn, and they sat this morning by the bird maker’s feet as if it were the first morning in the whole of creation. Washed of all impurity and sitting in perfection the children heard the bird maker say: “Do you know who I am?” And the children replied: “You are the Thread.” The bird maker looked at them and he had become like a king, stern and proud, one whose word is law, and he said so that the words reverberated through them: “Yes, I am the Thread, and nightly I destroy and recreate everything which exists. When I breathe in I destroy the creation and when I breathe out I recreate it from my love. This night which is turning to day I have taken you into my world because you have loved me with unreasoning love. I am the Thread which joins all things and I nurture my creation with love, and I make my people to know me through the vehicle of love. But what do men do in your world? They have forgotten how to love and so the Thread is lost to them. How can they be so proud? Do they not know that their world survives on love alone? Without it what that is living can survive? To forget how to love is a blasphemy to the whole creation. But the Bird Maker is kind. What is the Bird Maker but love? And when he sees that a world is dying for lack of love and that evil is running over the face of it and slaying his creatures then the Bird Maker comes to save that world for the sake of all the love that is left in it.” Now his expression was totally changed and he looked at them so vulnerably and continued: “It is for you that I have come. You come to me because you love me, and I come to you because you are like my heart itself, and I cannot exist without you. You have flown with me on the journey to the end of the night, and this morning a new world opens for you where you shall fly with me forever. I cannot be with you always in person, but to you, my little birds, I give the priceless gift of internal flight. By looking inside yourselves you will always find me, and though you are in this world you will be in my world within it.” And he breathed on them all four times, and with his first breath they saw inside themselves the golden stairway with the endless white light at the top. With his second breath they heard within them the music of the Bird Maker’s flute. With his third breath they felt the Thread destroy then recreate the universe endlessly in his love, and with his fourth breath they smelt and tasted the nectar which the new-born flowers on the ringèd planet had delivered up to the birds. “Look, listen, feel and drink within yourselves and you will know me and there will be no limit to your flight. But for flight to be possible, four things you must never forget: “The first of these is that love powers all flight. Without love, no flight is possible, and with love flight can be endless. Love is a spoken word from which universes come into existence. And truly, a person in love will do anything to attain the object of his love. Therefore, love me as I love you, and I will cross whole universes to come to you. Secondly, as I have illuminated you, go out into this world. and tell others of the world the Bird Maker has opened up to you. Thirdly, it is by the Bird Maker’s grace that you will fly, and therefore, whatever you do in this world, offer it to the Bird Maker. No one else may know that this is your motivation, but the Bird Maker will know it, and he will lower the sky to raise you up. Lastly, fly always, since if you stop, then this world will reach up and hold you down, as it has always tried to do to those who have striven to remember the Thread. Tell to no one of the journey we have taken this night, until the time is right and I release you from your pledge, but do these things for me and take with you my blessings.” In the newly dawned day, as the light from the sun lit the bright blue ocean waves, and the green woods rustled in the gentle sea breeze, the boys and girls looked at the Bird Maker and cried: “We love you, Bird Maker.” The Bird Maker, smiling like a woman at her adoring lover, said: “I love you too.” The children, sitting at the Bird Maker’s feet, knew that this was the answer to the riddle that the wingèd folk had kept from them. It was the thought from which the whole universe had come into existence. “And now farewell,” said the Bird Maker, “but I will come to you soon.” Even as he spoke, the children fell asleep and woke from beautiful dreams each in his own bed in his own home. Clothes and cloaks hung where they had been placed the night before. Anxious parents peeped round bedroom doors, relieved that their children had not been stolen in the night. Through the bedroom shutters the bright daylight streamed in shafts and the sounds of the stirring city could be heard outside. The children, lying snugly beneath warm bedclothes, brothers and sisters holding hands, listened in awe to the start of the first day of the new world.

Subject: Reading at the barricades From: Headcase To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:56:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, an appetiser from 'letters to....': ' I should not even attempt to sermonise,yet I do warn you that if you feel capable of going into 'internal exile' and living against the stream,you can expect some dark nights of -all right-the soul.But to undertake this and then to seek external or invisible aid would surely be to miss the point.A degree of solitude and resignation is necessary to begin with.Some people can't bear solitude,let alone the idea that the heavens are empty and that we do not even succeed in troubling their deafness with our bootless cries.To be an exile or outcast on a remote shore-many minds turn away in terror and seek any sort of cosiness.I can only say that,not only when it is compared to the ghastliness of Eternal Paternalism,the concept of loneliness and exile ans self-sufficiency continually bucks me up.(And one might also,when confronted with this unadorned reality,learn to treat one's fellow exiles with more consideration and respect.But let's not ask for the moon.)

Subject: Question, please. From: Anthony To: Headcase Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:38:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm probably pretty ignorant, but can you fill me in with a few details on who Christopher H. is, please. He sounds like some guy who writes for one of the newspapers, but maybe that's Peter Hitchens. It all sounds pretty gloomy and angst-ridden.

Subject: Re: Question, please. From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:17:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Easy to confuse the two I do that all the time. Christopher is an acdemic lefty, Peter is a right wing journo and hater of all things remotely liberal. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Reading at the barricades From: Bolly To: Headcase Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 07:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Headcase, Solitude is an interesting experience, and gives space for reflection and assimiliation on and of lifes ups and downs. The passage deserves more considered attention than I am able to give it while reading and posting in the public library. Are you going to post a paragraph a day to me? This may work in the short term and during phases when my stamina is high. Other times I may have to put my energy into lifting the onion crop and turning the compost heap. This sort of occupation leaves me physically and mentally tired and inclined to the 'bloody book learning' school of thought. This philosophy is a good one, and incorporates great sayings such as ' fine words butter no parsnips' My academic skills have become shoddy with misuse. When I read some of the postings on this site i realise how flabby and forgetfull I have allowed myself to get. Thanks for the extract, love Bolly

Subject: Uh? From: Sir Dave To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:27:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's nice and incomprehensible. This place is becoming like my forum. Well, there's always the danger that it might.

Subject: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:53:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been thinking about the whole process of becoming a premie and what it really entails. Back in 1972 I had this idea that becoming a premie meant to be mysteriously blessed with some sort of 'transmission' or "unlocking" of Knowledge which occurred in the Knowledge session. After that, one was always a premie whether one practised or not - becoming a 'manmat' if one didn't. This 'manmat' idea was reinforced by people (Maharaji? Shri Hans?) saying that it was better never to receive Knowledge at all than to receive it and not practice it. There was also the famous/infamous satsang of Maharaji's about the 'rotting vegetable' syndrome, the idea being that if you didn't practise Knowledge it would rot inside you - eugh! Being an analytical sort of person even back then I remember wondering at what point the actual 'transmission' of Knowledge occurred. Was it through the entire Knowledge session, Maharaji having empowered the mahatmas/initiators/instrutors in some way? Or did something actually occur at a precise moment in the session, such as when the mahatma revealed the light technique, which necessitated a physical contact? I decided it was probably the latter, but kept an open mind. Knowledge is now given by DVD (!!!), necessitating no physical contact at all, thereby blowing my preferred theory out of the water. Physical contact not necessary! However, something presumably must still supposedly occur in the Knowledge session for the aspirant to morph into a premie on that particular day. Is it the fact that the premie does his/her first meditation on that day? The premie could have done it before if they'd tried out the techniques. What makes that premie a premie after the Knowledge session and not before? I think we're now getting to the crux of the matter. There's only one difference between the tecnnique-practising premie before and after the Knowledge session: belief in and acceptance of Maharaji as master. All those hours of listening to/watching videos pre Knowledge session have one prime purpose over and above the one of interesting a person in fulfilling their life. It is to instil the idea of Maharaji being the Master/custodian of the Knowledge. If Maharaji was merely interested in giving people a method of meditation that could give them peace of mind, all those hours of watching graded videos would be unnecessary. It's the package he wants people to embrace, with himself and the worship of himself at the centre of that package. The Knowledge session is the final and essential step on the journey to becoming a fully fledged member of a cult. Without paticipation in the Knowledge session there is no cult membership, period. What premies have in common with each other is the fact that they have participated in a Knowledge session and accept Maharaji as their master. Aspirants have been extremely carefully screened for years to prevent non-believers sneaking through. Maharaji gets his livelihood and narcissistic supplies of devotion and adoration, to which he has become addicted, from cult members only. He needs cult members for his lifestyle to continue. He does not care one iota for these cult members any more than any other narcissist cares for their admirers. Narcissists do what they need to do to keep their suppliers hooked in, nothing more. Maharaji has found he can keep his suppliers hooked in by a number of means such as: 1 constantly changing things such as the name and style of the organisation, or even his own name, as a way of keeping members feeling that things are constantly happening and moving forward. 2 Making regular appearances to keep members feeling that he cares about them and is teaching them something. 3 Keeping up a constant supply of videos of himself for members to watch, ditto. Without all the above, the members may just find they enjoy the meditation without any reference to himself, and he can't afford to allow this. I now see that it's stretching credulity to breaking point to believe that anything at all occurs in a Knowledge session other than it being the passport to cult membership. Having practised 'the Knowledge' both before and after being a lover of Maharaji I can say in all honesty that the experience is identical. Countless other exes report the same thing. I also tried out the techniques before becoming a cult member and had a very powerful experience. It is somewhat shattering to realise that one was duped into a cult, and the recovery process is long and arduous at times, but I'm beginning to get there. I would urge any premie reading this to think very seriously about what they have got themselves into and ask themselves what evidence they really have that Maharaji cares about their development or in fact has anything whatsoever to do with their experience. If you enjoy the meditation, it works perfectly well without him. If you need a master figure in your life to the extent that you can't bear the idea of giving Maharaji up, then I suggest you see a therapist who understands something about transference. As somebody posted below, Maharaji has no interest whatsoever in empowering you, which should be the goal of any teacher, spiritual or otherwise. Maharaji's interest is only in keeping you hooked in to further his ends, not yours. He needs your projection, your focus, your money - he is dependent on it. Think about it. Livia

Subject: Brilliant, Livia From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:28:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an incredible essay on the K process and especially the K-M (SK-PR) connection. I especially appreciate the way you have elegantly laid out your ideas and leave it to the reader to decide for him or her self. Caveat emptor. As far as there being no K without M, that's the same thing we were told back in the 70's. It's the same deal today but no one is told that honestly. They are told it's all about your experience and give a chance, etc. Best of Forum, indeed. And the best to you, Livia. I really enjoy your insights.

Subject: great post! (nt) From: Susan To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 08:51:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Definitely ***BEST*** From: Katie H To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 07:10:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Livia - A friend of mine told me about your post, and some of the things you said mirrored what I felt as a premie so much that I wanted to thank you for your post. I'm sure there are other people who felt what I felt - sometimes it's difficult for me to remember. And I very much appreciate your clear and logical exposition of what makes an aspirant into a premie. When I was a practicing premie, I had what I thought were some really strange (not to mention embarassing) ideas about the 'transmission' during the K session, but you articulated them well - so well that I don't think they are that strange anymore. I believed that Maharaji, through the mahatma, 'put something in my head', or turned on a switch that was turned off, or whatever. I believed this because of the precise quotes that you stated - the rotten vegies, and the idea that it was better to NOT get K than receive it and not practice it (I believe M said this, also several of the mahatamas.) And I really thought this 'transmission' would cause me to go crazy if I stopped practicing knowledge. I was willing to take this risk at the time I received K because of all the supposed benefits that practicing K would give me. Actually, most of these beliefs were floating around somewhere between the conscious and unconscious levels of my brain - but they always were there, and they kept me unhappily involved for a long time after I no longer wanted to be there. (I no longer wanted to be there because the practice of knowledge did not lead up to its billing - at least for me.) So it was a huge risk to reject Maharaji as master, and stop practicing K. I know now that one can drive oneself 'crazy' by dwelling on certain things (like the symbolic rotten vegetables) - thank god that did NOT happen to me, especially since I didn't make any conscious effort to not dwell on those ideas. You are absolutely right that the current method of DVD transmission really blows open the idea that something actual is transmitted during the K session. I don't think I would have had the beliefs I had back then if I'd gotten K via DVD (or at least I hope not! I was pretty gullible back then). And your logical exposition of the whole process in which one becomes a premiem and WHY is very clear, and would have helped me a lot when I was exiting. I could NOT think as clearly as you did when I was a premie. I didn't even get to the point of wondering exactly WHEN the transmission took place - I suppose I felt that it happened after one learned the four techniques or something. So your post really was helpful. Anyway, thanks again, and I DO think your post is a ***BEST***. Take care, Katie

Subject: 8/17/2001: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: repost To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 10:53:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Posted: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:03:24 (EDT) Posted by: swami j. suchabanana Recipient: All Subject: da Twilight Zone: Those who don't learn... Message: Subject: those who don't learn those who don't learn from the lessons [sic mistakes] of history are doomed to repeat them... Welcome to the Twilight Zone: But, hey, man, like that's not fair to bring up the past. this is knowledge lite now. you guys are still stuck in the 1970s and 1980s. marjoe never said he was god or a savior; it's all lies, lies, lies. why do you people keep bringing that stuff up? those quotes must have been made up, too. besides, why can't the hateful exes and rape victims [who are clearly being manipulated by the ex-premies] just get a life and move along, and not disturb our blissful groovy scene? you guys are bringing us down with your blather and yakety yak -- bummer. and, like, you know, everyone around miragey already knows there ain't no sanity clause, anyway, so whatsa big deal, dude?! So, he is a very very 'successful businessman', and he smokes dope and drinks booze. bfd. heck, thousands of premies like to smoke lotsa dope and drink booze and have illicit sex, too. also, what's wrong with having tens of millions of dollars? I mean, maybe he earned that money, or people probably gave it to him -- or maybe they gave it to Elan Vital. this isn't a religion, after all. ok, so it's registered as a church. there are plenty of ministers getting filthy rich -- at least miragey is earning that money. I mean, it must be very difficult flying that complicated plane around, and very trying staying in those hotel suites, and terribly lonely with only a lovely blonde mistress and some servants to keep him company on the road. besides, at the heart of it, maybe by practicing this kn we can all be rich,too, just like him. 'Now the Lincoln owner, he's had money a long, long time. But the Mercedes owner -- the 'practical man.' (Maharaji) Isn't that the perfect example he is setting for us -- that you can have it all - 'that experience' + every luxury and material thing in this world, every drug, as much extramarital sex as you'll ever want, and not even be attached to any of it --- he is so perfect, after all, he is the Master?! that's the beauty of it all. who needs compassion, morality, ethics, empathy for the poor or for the hateful disbelievers? we are special, we are saved, we know something you don't -- that feeling, that gratitude, that synchronization, that participation, that possibility... You guys keep bringing up facts. facts, facts, facts -- whats yer problem? what do facts have to do with 'that experience, 'that experience of feeling', that feeling of 'the heart', that 'thirst', that 'possibility' that only miragey offers and can ever satisfy? I mean, he is the Master. he can put you in touch with your breath, that swing, that simplicity, that possibility of fulfillment, and then you will have the opportunity of gratitude, participation, and synchronization, and perhaps be so lucky as to even receive training in how to tell your own friends and family about it, and how to gradually introduce them to miragey, too. The naturalness the spontaneity, the blissful truth -- not the hateful lies of ex-premies -- those who never experienced this knowledge during the 30 years they practiced it daily, and/or those who don't know what they're talking about r.e. miragey, just because they might have been his financial advisor, or the president of divine light mission [EV], or his chauffeur, or his national coordinator, or his instructors -- they were obviously just in their minds the whole bleepin time -- and totally missed out. what a waste of human potential -- what a bunch of loosers! I mean, like, they obviously never realized this knowledge or who maharaji really is. Like, who is guru maharaj ji? ask, and you will find da answer. Every premie worth their ashram socks or spray-painted holi shirt knows da answer to that question. he is da superior power in person. 'I bow before you', my lord... C'mon, premies, back me up here. As miragey said, this is a 'war.' He needs more canon fodder for this holy war. We all know who miragey really is [wink wink]. he isn't just some meditation teacher -- he is the Master, da Perfect Master, da satguru, da Balyogeshwar, god in human form, the living lord of the universe come to bring about the new millenium - a thousand years of peace. and 'you can't come home without the master'. 'not a leaf stirs' in this whole world that he is not aware of. ok, so he has admitted that he doesn't hear our prayers. big deal. ok, so he doesn't know what happens after death. but, that's no reason not to place our salvation, our lives, our souls in his precious hands, or to completely surrender the reins of our lives at his holy lotus feet. Right? I mean, we are like little children. And miragey is such a father to us all. we are so weak and so small, and he is all-knowing, he is so big, he is so strong, he is the Master, as he has told us so many many many times for so many many many years. the message remains the same. he hasn't changed the message at all. it was mishler's fault, bill patterson's fault,bill wishard's fault, david smith's fault, vijayanand, charanand, mata ji, satpal, bhole ji, sharon stokke, ira woods, joan apter, gary girard, tim gallwey, donner, dettmers, terry yingling's fault, linda gross, david mankoff, eric reinemer, charles glasser, robert jacobs, jean-michel, marolyn's fault, randy prouty, parlokanand, chris cruse, rajeshwar, satyanand, Tiny reinhardt, suzy bai, geof and kim, rich neal, jiva, the anand band, charles cameron, glen whittaker, all the ashram premies, the 100,000 deluded premies who never got it, et al, etc. Always remember -- miragey is perfect. he said so, himself -- so it must be true. he also said that if the master was imperfect he wouldn't be the perfect master. 'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.'( -Maharaji) So he must know what he is talking about because he is the master -- therefore everything he says or does must be perfect. follow? that's the sheer simple beauty of it -- never leave room for doubt. got it? [PAGE 77: 'WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI?'] See, I really gotcha this time, kiddo. no ex-premie doubtmaker logic can contend with the sheer simple beauty of trusting in da perfection and divine wisdom of the Master. ever since that magical transmission of energy at the time of initiation [the shaktipat]; it says so right on pg. 77 of the authorized book, 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji?': 'the initiation is a profound spiritual event in which an indefinable essence, or energy, is transmitted between human beings.' See? that's the key and the proof of the hasty pudding. and only miragey holds the key. see, he was channeling halfway around the world through the instructors. now, he is channeling that same energy through DVD players while smoking cigs backstage, or having sex and drinking cognac in another part of the world. he is omnipotent and omniscient, maybe not in his indivualized form but as his Guru Maharaj ji -- you know, in the 3rd person. See? that essence, that external 'indefinable energy' transmission between human beings can not be defined or explained. you have to feel it, to trust completely in miragey, I mean, 'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey See, you guys are just totally confused, in yer minds, and missing out! you and Way, and Deborah, and that swami banana, et al. see? this whole thing is 'indefinable'. without trust, without being that humble 'servant', without dedicating your mind and the reins of your life, without that synchronization and participation -- how could you possibly understand? this knowledge can not be understood, anyway. so, your attempts to explain it, your doubts, your questions will all be answered if you just become like a trusting little child -- and trust 100% in the word of the Master -- his word is always straight. As he has told us so many many times: 'No cheat, no deceit.' [Rod Serling: You have just been to a place where time and space stand still, where there is never room for doubt, worries, regrets, only the bliss and peace of that feeling, that understanding, that knowledge, that experience, that darshan, that divine lila of god in human form -- the Perfect Master, whose every infallible word and action are like divine dewdrops of nectar.] Yes, this internet is his divine play -- His lila, his sport. that's why he wanted all the premies to go on the internet and check out the websites in the first place, see the rotten ex-vegetables, and come to his own site for the truth [and for some milk and cookies] - the truth which only he knows, which only he reveals, which only he understands -- in da Twilight Zone.] Hope this finally makes everything 'perfectly clear'. but even then, You guys probably just don't get it.] --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Do all those raps sound familiar? they don't call that 'incultcation', for nuttin! jai suchabanana. bolie shri ratrugudev maharaj ki jai! Peace and lentils, hohohohohohohohohohohohoho

Subject: ***BEST*** From: Loaf To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 18:22:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a fab post. Cogent is a good word for it ! I was just musing to myself that we all share something. A sort of 'hole' in the back of our minds. Normally this hole is filled with fears, doubts and uncertainties, faith and hope... but my hole has been filled with feelings. These feelings appear to be of love, of bliss and of security, but in actual fact I think there is a lot of smugness. I think a lot of premies actually emotionally disconnected from everyday life and moved into their safe hole, from which the outside is clearly a strange land, and the 'inside' becomes homely, wallpapered with reassuring feelings and an identity supported by other 'hole dwellers'. The Presence of this hole, which is a non logical, non-rational space sigificantly alters the way that most of us see life. Its a Right hemisphere intuitional dreamy type of place, but one which has been hi-jacked by the corporate Maharaji, so that our subjective, personal most private and fluid space appears to be his personal private domain. And because we know no better, we happily construct a throne for our mock-father to sit on, and thus make ourselves immune from our real parents (or so we think). This immunity from life is nothing other than denial. Maharaji has, as I said somewhere else most eleoquently ..'taken love and gratitude out of the social 'loop' and called it 'divine' No bad thing in itself.. after all if our responses to life are NOT divine, then where else might divinity be found ? this appears to be a great gift. To empower people by showing them/reminding them that their feelings matter and that their relationship with life is in the realm of the divine. However my relationship with everyday objects was damaged by this. Nothing BUT the officially 'divine' mattered. My relationship with my bowl and my rice was blurred by my gratitude to an invisible 'giver'. My relationship with my friends was neglected and not invested in, because they didnt really matter to me. My parents were used and walked past as if they were strangers. All particularly adolescent behaviour, but all undertaken because my best interests, my loyalty and my future seemed to be invested in my hole. What has been interesting in re-emerging from my hole to find that the way I feel about my friends MATTERS (for good or ill) that my response to my home Matters, that all sorts of things which I had neglected or thought irrelevant actually MATTER to me. My thoughts, my dreams, other peoples dreams and also my feelings matter. not the great all encompassing 'feeling' of the security Hole, but individual and articulate responses to ctiny objects, colours, people, moods, environments and possibilities. it seems that maharaji made me consume one flavour of life It is astonishing how the physical manifestation of the social structure (the money syphon and gratitude milking, the constant fund raising and his NEED for free toys) mirrors the internal relationship that Premies are put into with their 'inner maharaji' who replaces their 'self'. Because the inner relationship which he establishes is infantile and blissful and re-assuring, we never see it as a bad thing ! How could I stand back from it ? There was no way to be objective about a 'feeling' cos he forbade all analysis and provided no structure or thought for people to actually understand what was going on! I like the image of the ashrams as sweatshops.. producing vast sums of money for M and his family, but lets not forget the sci-fi reality that we were all hypnotising ourselves at the same time ! Knowledge is exactly what he said it wasnt.. a painkiller. But it also takes people into that subjective region of their own self where they have NO defense against suggestion. The techniques without the context are still restful and calming and blissful... just like a hypnotist counting a person backwards.. 10 this world is scary 9 there is nowhere for me in this world 8 the only safe place is within me 7 you can help me get there 6 God is within me 5 you have shown me God 4 this is the source of all joy 3 I owe you everything 2 you will take care of me 1 you are my everything After that short journey it isnt such a big deal to buy him a plane is it ?

Subject: Nice one, Loaf From: Richard To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 09:18:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very well said. I enjoyed the hole in the back of the head metaphor and especially love the count down from 10 hypnosis. After that short journey it isnt such a big deal to buy him a plane is it ? Big LOL! Richard, counting forward and waking up - F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7, F8

Subject: Loaf's Post: ***BEST*** From: Livia To: Loaf Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 15:23:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Loaf, Thanks for your kind remarks about my outpouring of the other day - don't know quite what got into me that morning - I'd been musing and it all came out, as it does sometimes here. Just want to say here that I think your post above is just brilliant, and gives a lot of food for thought - may elaborate in the next few days (help!!!) It was your remarks about smugness...set me thinking; something's coming clear...and not before time. You put things so clearly and succinctly - I know you're a writer, and it shows - in the best possible way. The medium can sometimes truly intensify the message, and the way you write sends me into a space of total clarity - wonderful. Think I must read your post again - and to anyone reading this, if you haven't read Loaf's post above - read it! Love to you, Loaf Livia

Subject: Re: ***BEST*** From: Bolly To: Loaf Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:24:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Loaf and Livia have put into words so eloquently what I have experienced. I hope those considering thier alegiance to the guru will linger over these posts. We all know what they're talking about. Love Bolly

Subject: Thanks to Loaf & Livia From: Brian Smith To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 22:38:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The clear realizations articulated by you both is what keeps me as an ex-premie coming back here time and time again for inspiration, understanding and healing. Your posts are acknowledgement of the work we need to engage in to clear our hearts and minds of the trappings of so many years of cult indoctrination and guru/master personality worship. I was thinking just today that DLM, Maharaji, Prem Rawat was then in 72 and now in 02 everything it said it wasn't. It is nothing more than just another religion, worse yet; a religion that pretends like it is not one. I look back over the years and how I expressed such a reverence for this man whom I regarded as an embodiment of the lord of the universe an attitude that was cultured and re-inforced both by my peers and m himself. It was worship ..... nothing less and undeserved at that, and Prem Rawat never came forward and addressed it as such, got off it and truly cleared the air. At best he skirted the issue with a wink and a nod, while sidestepping and sliding into another more palatable form of the original premise of LOTU. It is a Racket that he has run far too long, and he owes an apology and an explanation to us. Yes he does! I don't think it will ever happen, but the least prem rawat could do would be to set the record straight for those like myself who once bought the pretense that he was some sort of divinity/master incarnate. This is what had me and many others like myself hooked into many years of idoltry and illusion. Delusion which among other things caused division from my family and friends, the truly most important relationships in my life. At any rate, it is revelations in posts like yours and Livia's that cast the light of truth on these matters for now in the absence of rawats admission of culpability. Thanks for your incredibly healthy and clear insights

Subject: Two ***BEST*** of Forum (nt) From: Vicki To: Loaf Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 20:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:23:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have surpassed yourself with this post, Livia. Well done! At core it is all about guru-worship and nothing else!

Subject: 'Guru Worship' From: Vicki To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 20:57:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Absolutely right to point! Only for me, it was never about Maharaji being a guru, it was always about Maharaji being the Lord incarnate, this time 'round playing it out as a guru. I paid my twenty bucks and got my special word to meditate on from the Transcendental Meditation organization before I heard about Maharaji. I wasn't looking for a guru and never gave the Maharishi guy second notice. No one demanded devotion for him and no one told me he was the lord of the universe. I walked away with never a glance back. This game that Maharaji played with our lives was a bit different. It was definitely all about worshipping him, as the Perfect Master, Living Master, Lord incarnate, etc etc etc. I wish I could have seen him as simply a guru. Would have saved me lots of years, money, and heartache for not only myself, but my family.

Subject: Re: 'Guru Worship' From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 07:58:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Everything you said rings true for me. It was about worship. Not respect for a teacher or guru, or even high esteem, but the lord incarnate, bowing down, heartbreaking worship.

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 09:59:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Knowledge by DVD? Well, that buggers up any spurious correlations between knowledge and the Biblical 'laying on of hands'. Neville

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 08:50:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Good post. I like to simplify it in one word CULT. When looking back at the time I got sucked in (and it was sucked) it was very early on in my contact with premies. I'd had a difficult life, I wasn't looking for a guru nor meditation, but I was looking for a panacea to life's problems. I must have been in synch with the vibes I felt at my first couple of satsangs. Even with the DVD thing and the videos Maharaji keeps saying that an experience can be attained by watching and listening. It's less effective than real live premies with glistening eyes projecting an ''I have something you don't have'' attitude. There's also an attitude in premies of ''You can't get it anywhere else.'' But now that I know it's a cult I was into and having read so much about other cults, it's quite easy to see the con involved. I don't think premies were aware of the con back in 1975 when I arrived on the scene, but it's always been a con. All the that 'rotting veggie' stuff was part of m's con. He does that quite well if someone's been sucked into the mindfuck. I still promote the book Snapping by Flo Conway. This book describes how people snap into and out of a cult. It also describes in depth the various groups, including M's. There isn't really a transmission except long periods of indoctrination with a promise. And there certainly are stages, the beginners, the intermediates, and the full-blown initiates who are true believers. That's why I believe that when someone is in process of getting sucked into any cult it's the process of giving up freedom of thought and freedom of will. Once freedom of thought's been given up (for me) it is sudden and complete. No questions, only rationalizations--especially when the cult is a personality worship one like ours was/is. The only extent I take responsibility for the taking over of my freedom of thought is the point at which I gave it up.

Subject: Re: Knowledge, transmission and DVD From: Livia To: Djuro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 11:34:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, Djuro, I know it's painful and all that, but the fact is and will remain - you are in a cult. Your inability to see it or accept it is all part of the cult conditioning you have been subjected to/accepted. No cult members are aware they are in a cult. No one wants to join a cult. People such as ourselves join cults unwittingly, believing that what we have found is unique and true. A true spiritual teacher attempts to enable his followers to attain the same level as himself. The leader of a cult always keeps his followers entrapped in a cycle wherein they are constantly urged to find new recruits. Maharaji calls this 'propagation'. This cycle also disempowers the followers in that they are never enabled to have the exact experience the cult leader has, or pretends to have. Maharaji has no power to enable anyone's experience in meditation or otherwise. This is all in premies' imagination. The vast majority of so-called spiritual leaders are conmen or charlatans and Maharaji is no exception. The premies are blinded from seeing this because they believe so intensely that he is something special. They rationalise everything he does, from his tacit condoning of sexual abuse, to his womanising, to his extortinate material tastes and demands. He has grown into someone who behaves like a spoilt, overindulged pop star and the premies are too enamoured with him to be able even to glimpse the truth. He cares only for the super-rich premies who continue to support him in the style to which he has become accustomed. The rest quickly become redundant when he tires of them. He teaches a meditation technique that works exactly the same with or without him, and uses it as a hook with which to reel people into his cult, which is actually a personality cult. What he appears to be on stage bears no resemblance to the person behind the scenes, any more than the stage persona of a pop star resembles the private reality. On stage he is empowered by the love and longing of the premies, without whom he would be nothing and no one. Many of the premies have personality problems especially those of needing a parental figure to project onto. The writing is on the wall, Djuro, but you are too blinded to be able to read it. Livia PS By the way, how about elaborating why you think I'm wrong? Just saying "you're wrong" without any explanation doesn't really cut it in my book, I'm afraid. You'll have to do better than that.

Subject: do tell...... From: The Falcon To: Djuro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:33:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in what way and who, Livia? Cynthia? I am genuinely interested in your perspective so please elaborate.

Subject: Don't feed the Trolls please;) From: Cynthia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:44:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Djuro is a banned troll who's been disrupting this forum for years. It sneaked back in, but it'll blocked very soon. It's a futile effort to try to communicate with this particular character, and unwise IMO to encourage it...

Subject: To Noise From: Livia To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:31:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I expect you're Quiet, judging by the weird spelling of weight. You never said who or what you're really about - now you're apparently hanging in happily with all the premies over at LG. There's only one word for you - pathetic. Livia

Subject: We're in synch, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:39:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Online together again! I wish I could meet you in person... Don't worry about insults to me. Pat Conlon taught me very much about thick skin. These thick heads are no worry for me:) Love, Cynthia

Subject: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:48:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Cynthia! I wish I could meet you too - I often wonder what you're like in person... Don't worry - I can see you weren't at all phased by Noise/Quiet/whoever. Hmmm - increased troll activity lately - I wonder why? They must be getting bored. Do you ever get over to England? Lots of love, Livia

Subject: Re: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:55:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ever get to England? I hardly get to Connecticut! That's why my phone bill is so high. My entire family is in Connecticut and even though we all have online computers, we still gab for hours on the phone. In person, I can't describe myself, but exes with whom I've spoken over the phone have said my voice is quite different than my posts. I'm not harsh at all, actually quite gentle...with an edge.

Subject: Re: We're in synch, Cynthia From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 10:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, that's a shame. I never get to the USA either, although I'd love to find some way of meeting all you guys! Sometimes the feeling on this forum is amazing, isn't it - the empathy and shared experience becomes a vibrant almost living thing. I love it. I didn't imagine you as being at all harsh, because your compassion always shines through - you never miss an opportunity to show compassion when it's needed, and I really admire you for that. Much love to you, Livia XX

Subject: Thanks, Livia... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 12:11:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again, Thanks for your compliments...I sometimes don't know how I come across, but I am always open to feed-back...

Subject: Everyone! Notice how the Trolls... From: Cynthia To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:17:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...suddenly forget how to spell when they come back to strike! HaHaHaHaHa! HoHoHoHoHo! HeHeHeHeHe! That one made my day...not just an ugly face--HooHoo:p I feel pretty, oh so pretty, I feel pretty and witty and bright....

Subject: CERISE! I warned you... From: Andrea E. To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 01:45:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was very naughty, what you said to that unfortunate ex-student Cynthia person. Remember our little talk? Some of these confused ex-students think you are really David Roupell, pretending to be Cerise, a teenage child of premie parents, and we don't want them to think that, do we? David NEVER posts anonymously, or pretends to be other people. You must stop making trouble for him. I would like to assure all you horrible ex-students that David doesn't post this nasty stuff, it's just the silly childish pranks of a teenage girl, I know her parents, it's all harmless. Really! It's just dear little "Cerise", she is NOT David, she is just as real as myself or Catweasel. Here is a Photo of Dear Cerise as proof positive.

Subject: Love it... [nt] From: Neville To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:32:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: CERISE! I warned you... From: D.Votey To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a mischevious little thing and so pretty, her parents must be real proud. Love D.

Subject: Oopsy, wrong photo... From: Andrea E. To: Andrea E. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:04:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... that was her before she put on her makeup! HERE is the correct photo. Such a nice girl (with just a slight stubble problem). A little bit of makup can make such a difference! Andrea E. :) Always willing to help with not filtering out the good. +)

Subject: she is-the trips keep falling away From: janet To: Noise Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 00:15:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and when that weight is lifted, you wouldnt beleive how light you feel, and how fast. its a diet i competely endorse. go on it yourself. the crap thats been laid on you will just fall off in chunks. theres a wonderfully free and unencumbered you waiting underneath all those layers of lies. hang around here. it gets you started.

Subject: I like this man/god M From: V To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:52:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You have to respect this suber being, I mean , how many other people do u know that can empty ur bank account, just like a leach empties blood? He grows fat and prospers, has a normal family life and indulges the women, its a shame his blind, brain washed followers do not have the same privalage. A house in Malibu, a jet, a boat ( all be it a small $7000000 one), a fat bank account, kids, ashrams, property, masses to lick his feet ( and god knows what else).....u know this guy has it all. I respect him because he is capable of making chaudus out of millions of people, u got to hand it to him, he does it well. Long may he live, grow fat and hopefully go to hell!

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: Neville To: V Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:03:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I intend to be around to see Maharaji reduced to a lonely, isolated wreck without serious numbers of disciples. Then I'm gonna laugh loud. I'll kick him when he's down. Why the hell not? Neville the Vengeful

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: reflection To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 19:06:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: anger takes you away from your self........you dont have to follow mj if you dont like him, but work out that anger....anger takes you to an empty road

Subject: Yes, Massa... From: Cynthia To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:46:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks you for that inspired advice. And Prem Rawat is the LORD! HAhaHA--you're in a cult, you're in a cult, boy. Anger is a healthy emotion which is discouraged by western culture. As Neville said below, it's only dangerous or unhealthy when it becomes obsessive or injurious to the angry. I don't know why I'm talking to my reflection, I already know this. Zing!

Subject: Anger From: Neville To: reflection Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 01:55:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bollocks. There's such a thing a righteous anger, and healthy anger. Some things deserve anger. Anger doesn't do you harm unless it becomes obsessive/ pathological. People who can't let their feelings flow may well have the bigger problem. Neville the expressive

Subject: Me too, Neville From: Inside Edition To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 15:57:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I know just what you mean. The Wheel of Karma must surely turn for Ratwat too. Yeah, he may always have a super-devoted few, but the writing is on the wall. The money is drying up, Elan Vital has been dismantled, people are walking away in droves, 'programs' have to now be super-secret and security-crazy (just imagine the ultra-security-apparatus that must surround the lord of the universe today!). After all of the bullshit and the lies for all of those years, it's about time! Keep up the good fight, Neville!

Subject: Another thing about anger From: Livia To: Inside Edition Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:45:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Somebody posted the other day that new agers have a problem expressing anger. Spot on!!! This request from 'Reflection' suggesting we go away quietly has resonances of that sort of mindset, and it's nonsense. The inability to feel anger when you've been had is the fear of the power of one's own anger. People who are afraid to express anger appropriately become what's known as 'passive-aggressive' - a very unhealthy way to be. I don't know if Reflection is a new ager, possibly not, but for anyone reading here: beware of new agers! Beneath that smiley loving exterior often lurks a can of very unpleasant worms. Scratch the surface and out comes the nastiness that they don't really know how to deal with. Look at how Doc reacted the other day. Trying to be all chatty with ex WPCers until even I began to think maybe this guy's not so bad. Then Marianne warned people not to trust him, and - wow! Out came a tirade of vitriol the unpleasantness of which we haven't seen here for quite a while. No, anger belongs on the outside when it's due, appropriately expressed and then moved on from. There's no healing without appropriate anger, and anger is one of the recognised stages of healing from crises such as divorce or bereavement. What we are going through is a form of divorce and/or bereavement, hence the totally appropriate anger. It doesn't last for ever, but could lurk unhealthily for ever if unacknowledged. Love, Livia

Subject: Doc is an unstable cult member... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:51:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doc thinks he's got the score but he's in a cult. He'll do anything to protect his butt and he has a nasty side that is quite unpleasant. When I remember all of the personalities he's presented here, I wonder if....no, he doesn't have MPD, he's just a lazy rich kid who never grew up. He has no respect for anybody, except those who agree with him. And if you cross him, duck and cover!;)

Subject: Hey, An observer From: Happy Ex To: An observer Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 15:16:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're really full of it to pass judgement here - especially without establishing any credibility at all. Unless you consider stalking Cynthia your purpose in life thereby giving you credibility among your fellow zealots. What a wonderful life you lead you spineless schmuck. Cynthia on the other hand lives a full life that happens to include extricating herself and others from a personality cult. If life is so great, why waste your time here? :)X

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: The Falcon To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:37:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that is not going to happen, this kind of cult will linger on and and on because there will always be seekers of Truth. I think it is all part of the unfolding spiritual process, the lesson of my involvement with M being........discrimination!

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: Neville To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:05:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree he will always have some disciples. But the glory days--the peak was probably just prior to the Astrodome programme--are receding steadily. The propaganda used in those times--reaching the world with knowledge etc--is no longer credible, and I doubt he can come up now with anything so appealing. Linger, yes. A force, no. And those that stay with him will be pathetic figures. He's marginalised now. From here on it's a steady descent towards obscurity. Neville

Subject: Re: I like this man/god M From: Scott T. To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 13:48:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dunno Neville. While it's probably the case that this particular charlatan has seen better days the Rhadasaomi movement in general is growing. Oddly, this is the case even though each particular guru has followers who claim he's the *only true master*. You'd think there'd be a clue to pick up on, but people are real stubborn about that sort of thing. And because this stuff is cyclical here chances are some descendant of his will even have a heyday some day in the US. We forget so easily. --Scott

Subject: There seems to be... From: Neville To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 04:44:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...something in the human psyche that likes the idea of continuity, an apostolic succession. We sense that for something to be strong it needs be rooted deep in the past. We like to be able to cite a long tradition. It's just one more force that acts to eclipse our critical faculties. Neville

Subject: Taxes From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 22:44:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just how much yearly taxes would one have to pay on a 20 million dollar California house, a 7 million dollar yacht, muliple expensive cars, the insurance for those cars, and the taxable income on the donations if they weren't 'gifts', the fuel, and taxes on the other homes around the world? It's no wonder Elan Vital had to be registered as a church and now the Prem Rawat Foundation, to be tax deductible. Even his fifty million dollar bank account could not sustain his life lifestyle for long. It would eat it up like he eats up premies hard earned cash at the expense of their needs.

Subject: Re: Taxes From: Janelle To: Vicki Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 23:00:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The rich & powerful in America pay very little in taxes - they know how to find ways around it - That's the American Way.

Subject: Taxes and sheer greed From: Livia To: Janelle Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:36:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And that's OK, is it? When America owns a vast proportion of the world's wealth and then refuses to share it with the rest of the world or even the poor of their own country? Livia

Subject: It's NOT Okay... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 08:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...for the one percent of all Americans who hold 99% of all the wealth to have these loopholes. That's why we have Progressives like my U.S. Congressman, Bernie Sanders who call it Corporate Welfare and fight tooth and nail to get tax codes changed. I worked for a tax attorney once and the tax code is just that: code! It's a cajillion pages long and very cryptic and it's meant to be that way. It may seem to some folks that it's okay to form a religion and get a tax-exempt status. My thinking now is that all churches should get off of the U.S. dole. Let them pay--especially the Catholic Church! And, the cults... My little Sunday morning rant....

Subject: You mean... From: TaxfreeDoc To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 20:28:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's Not Ok for my family to have a company in the Isle of Man, a family trust in Guernsey and offshore 'interests' in the Cayman Islands? Oh shit, I'd better break the bad news to them....~)

Subject: Re: You mean... From: Cynthia To: TaxfreeDoc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 08:18:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Doc, there're are a lot of rich folks I don't like. It's kind of like you act so privileged and entitled. No wonder you are friends with 'Bossy Boots.' And yes, you're right...if you've got enough dough to be stashing it offshore, you're cheating. Your behavior now makes sense to me--you're from old money! That word's entitled. Nevermind, you bring out the snotty in me, Doc. Enjoy your cash.

Subject: Re: You mean... From: Livia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:47:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, Doc, it's all within the law, if that's what you mean. Stashing your money in offshore accounts is kind of legal, but morally it stinks. Rape in marriage was legal in Britain until recently, but that didn't make it morally right or acceptable, did it? I have a good friend who is a millionaire. He became one through extraordinary hard work, creating and marketing an ethically sound product that has brought pleasure to many. He donates large amount to charities, donates blood, sends his children to state schools because he doesn't want them to grow up unfairly privileged, and lives modestly. He drives an ordinary, unostentatious car. He would no sooner invest his money in offshore bank accounts than fly to the moon in a two-seater plane. He pays a large amount in tax because he believes in a system that taxes the rich. His taxes help pay for the schools, hospitals, roads and infrastructure we all depend on. I wouldn't be particularly proud of a father who found a quasi-legal way of evading tax to keep himself rich, and I don't think much of Maharaji for doing it either. If you do, bully for you. But then who would expect an apologist for Maharaji to have a clear moral sense - yours obviously got killed off long ago. It seems to be all part and parcel of the inner workings of the contemporary premie's pyche these days - void. Livia

Subject: It doesn't explain anything From: An observer To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 13:45:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you are a victim of peer pressure. ask how many wealthy ex-premies invest in off shore accounts and see for yourself. it has nothing to do with his personality and reasons for reamining loyal to Prem. you are so bias that you are posting nonsense.

Subject: Life is great From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 15:59:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: now seems sporadic and very, very boring. Has Armageddon arrived early there? give us a tune , mate! CD,you can do it or maybe that should read - you should can it! ELK, now that's more like it. All things must pass.

Subject: Re: Life is weird From: Livia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:11:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's become sporadic and boring because a lot of us stopped posting over there or were blocked, giving them very little to post about. I suspect life for most premies isn't that great at all - they only feel impelled to come out and say so when they're under attack and feel an (understandable) need to justify their position. The rest of the time they go back to their odd lives as premies in 2002, with a Maharaji who revises, pares down, changes identity and spins until they don't know who or where they are any more. Livia

Subject: That's ironic, doc said recently that this From: hamzen To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:53:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was the place that was dying, so it's pretty ironic really. Such is life. Whatever, blah de blah.

Subject: Re: Life is great From: Janelle To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 22:44:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe they just take vacations, celebrate holidays - have lives.

Subject: Re: Life is great From: Livia To: Janelle Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 04:34:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Um, so how come they weren't taking vacations, celebrating holidays, having lives, when LG was buzzing with activity up till a few weeks back? F7 posters seem to be able to take vacations, celebrate holidays have lives and post prolifically and interestingly too. Livia

Subject: Re: Life is great From: Holden To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 20:14:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We happen to be busy. And we got rid of you lot

Subject: Re: Life is great From: Life Is Great To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 18:16:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are using code. We now have an other site. LIG

Subject: We Do Indeed (The 1st Troll free Forum!) From: Docsaid To: Life Is Great Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 20:24:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SUCCESS: At age 4 success is . . . not peeing in your pants. At age 12 success is . . . having friends. At age 16 success is . . . having a drivers license. At age 20 success is . . . having sex. At age 35 success is . . . having money. At age 50 success is . . . having money. At age 60 success is . . . having sex. At age 70 success is . . . having a drivers license. At age 75 success is . . . having friends. At age 80 success is . . . not peeing in your pants. At age 99 success is. . . realising what the fuck it was all about. get with it folks - you've a long ways to go;)

Subject: Troll free, indeed From: Happy Ex To: Docsaid Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 11:16:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny that you are so full of yourself about being Troll Free when you are still free to speak your mind here. By insulating yourselves from actual thought, maybe you'll never have to face reality. But, on the other hand, if you keep talking behind the secret curtain eventually the truth will surface. The reason the Premster stopped satsang in the first place was because truth was being spoken and it threatened his house of cards.

Subject: Precisely, Happy Ex... From: Cynthia To: Happy Ex Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:50:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As far as I'm concerned, Roupel (a/k/a _____Doc______ fill in the blanks, along with his several other of his characters) is a Troll. He's just a smartass rich kid who's middle aged and doesn't have a clue about reality. And he brings the bitch out of me everytime he has the nerve to post here, especially while bragging about his new secret forum...an uncorrigible hypocrite, in other words~) He's full of something all right;) Best, Cynthia

Subject: At 14: realising M is a fake [nt] From: Neville To: Docsaid Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:22:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Another Intriguing Tale.. From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 11:15:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: from the same pen as brought you A Glastonbury Romance. After claiming my earnings from Shepton Mallet, I abandoned the Portobello Road costermonging rascals, finished my TEFL course and departed abroad to teach foreigners English.. Several fulfilled romantic encounters, years and supernatural experiences later, I found myself along with others in an attic room at Paris ashram with Mahatma Umesh Dhar, undergoing my Knowledge Preparation course. A beautiful environment - pods falling from the garden trees and exploding silently into magnificent chestnuts, meals of curry, brown rice and salad served up by wondrous unattainable gopis, amazing nocturnal stories in the pavillion dormitory with Europe-wide seekers after truth. Ah... One of the strangest stories, however, was from Mahatma Ji himself. He himself was a big Jesus freak. On one of the blissful four days, he narrated the following: 'After I received Knowledge (at Prem Nagar), I thought carefully, then went to Guru Maharaji and said: 'Guru Maharaji, the experience I have received from you is very beautiful, but I cannot see it was the same as Jesus gave.' He looked at me, and said: 'Go and read the Bible ten times, then come back' I did so, then returned, and said: 'Guru Maharaji, I've done what you asked, but still don't see that this Knowledge is what Jesus gave.' He said: 'Go and read the Bible another ten times.' 'I did so, but returned to him with the same answer. He told me to do it another ten times, which I did, to receive the same response. I was then admonished to do it five times more. 'I again reported that I was still unsatisfied. At this point, Guru Maharaji smiled, and, in one minute and a half explained to me the meaning of the Bible.' In the attic room we all fell deeply silent at that. After a moment, I piped up and said respectfully: 'Mahatma Ji, would you please tell us what Guru Maharaji said to you?' He then smiled, and said: 'First go and read the Bible thirty five times, then I will tell you.' In the intervening twenty nine years, I have indeed browsed the Bible (New Testament - I guessed that what was he had meant) quite a few times, but never sussed it out. It is indeed very difficult to equate Knowledge with Jesus. However, just last year, a penny dropped, and I may have clocked the conundrum. Any guesses before I (maybe) reveal my conclusions? Anthony, never deliberately a mystery-maker, but enjoying this one a bit, nevertheless.

Subject: Re: Another Intriguing Tale.. From: L:ivia To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:06:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I doubt Maharaji has ever actually got round to reading the Bible - after all he has said he's never read a book in his life, and the Bible does fit the category of 'book' after all. When I first became a premie it was as if all the scriptures suddenly made sense, particularly the Hindu and Buddhist ones. The Bible and the Koran - hmmm....you had to look a little harder to find the connections, but hey, when you're in the grip of an intense belief, it's not hard to find the evidence to fit the theory. 'When thine eye is single, thy whole body shall be full of light' - well, that said it all as far as I was concerned! However, I've read stuff recently on this forum that suggests that this particular translation is open to question, and that in fact a monotheistic religion such as Christianity may have had no original mystical basis at all, therefore blowing my long-held concepts clean out of the water. There were certainly 'gnostics' around at the time of Jesus who were probably having mystical experiences, but who really knows about Jesus? There's scant evidence that he even existed, and in the Dead Sea Scrolls there's a description of a master called the 'Teacher of Righteousness' who lived about 100 years before Jesus supposedly did. He gave a sermon uncannily similar to the Sermon on the Mount; it's so similar that it's hard not to suspect that Jesus' apparent words could have had a much earlier source. Things are certainly not always what they seem, and it's naive in the extreme to think that the way the New Testament tells it is exactly as it was. It must have been very compelling for Maharaji to latch onto Jesus as a teacher such as himself, giving the same Knowledge as he did, as a powerful way of hooking us all in. I now suspect the truth is somewhat different. Livia

Subject: Sympathy for the Devil From: Anthony To: L:ivia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:06:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This may have been done to death already on the Forum, but anyone who is interested in wierd and original slants on the Jesus theme (and garbolising of historical events) should immediately and unfailingly read The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. It's hilarious, unputdownable, and brilliant... It inspired the Rolling Stones song 'Sympathy for the Devil'. Anthony, who tries to keep to the straight and narrow, but has occasional sympathy for the devil, goes off the rails, and awakes in wet gutters..

Subject: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Anthony To: L:ivia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 04:58:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: please. 'There were certainly 'gnostics' around at the time of Jesus who were probably having mystical experiences, but who really knows about Jesus?' What are you actually saying here? Were these Gnostics Christians, or did they happen to be around concurrently, and later perhaps latched onto Christianity and claimed it for themselves? This is how some scholars look on gnostics - as a certain type of parasite always around which clings onto major religions for credibility. In regard to Jesus's existence, the Roman historian Tacitus states in The Annals of Imperial Rome, Chaper XV (in respect to Nero's alleged implication in the fire in Rome) the following : 'To suppress this rumour, Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilatus. But in spite of this temporary setback the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judaea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital.' A footnote in my edition states: 'This is the only mention in pagan Latin of Pontius Pilate's action'. References to Jesus by the Jewish historian Josephus are totally discredited as later additions. Anthony the dry scholar, who would like everyone to instantly read his following post

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 06:00:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know as much about the gnostics as you do, but what I do know is that they were around before Jesus. I don't know if they were around at the same time, but read the Dead Sea Scrolls for the description of the 'Teacher of Righteousness' who preceded Jesus by about 100 years. There are odd resonances, to say the least. I must read more about them. I don't know whether they latched on to Christiantity, although I do know that Christians tend not to know what to think or do about them - they are inconvenient at best! Livia

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:58:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia, the Gnostics had nothing to do with the Qumran Community or the Essenes, groups who are associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes (or Qumaran Community) seemed to be waiting for the appearance of the Messiah and the Teacher of Righteousness; I think they saw them as two different personages. I don't think that the Teacher of Righteousness was ever named or was an actual person.

Subject: gnostics/essenes muddle - mine From: Livia To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:53:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oops! I stand corrected - I think I meant the Essenes. I haven't looked at all this stuff for years and got my titles mixed up. In the copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls I used to have, I'm sure this Teacher of Righteousness was described as someone who lived 100 years before His Nibs. If I can find the book I'll check it out and get back to you. Livia Sorry for any confusion. I'll go and look for the book now - may still have it. Livia

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Neville To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:06:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Personally, I'm very aware of the Gnostics and the way Gnostic thought infiltrated Christianity. A large chunk of the paranoia re sex that has blighted Christianity has its origin in the Gnostic concept that the physical world--including our bodies--is fundamentally evil. Neville

Subject: Christianty and the Sexual Problem From: Anthony To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 04:57:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Personally, I'm very aware of the Gnostics and the way Gnostic thought infiltrated Christianity. A large chunk of the paranoia re sex that has blighted Christianity has its origin in the Gnostic concept that the physical world--including our bodies--is fundamentally evil. Neville --- Gnosticism was a dualistic belief system, and they indeed believed that the world was evil. Gnostic practices varied greatly between their multiple sects. Some were extremely puritanical, others orgiastic. By the end of the second century, most Christian groups are believed to have been gnostic to varying degrees. The Christian notion of original sin goes back to earliest times. However, it did not become identified with sexuality til much later, due to the growing worldiness among Christians after it became the state religion of the Empire. Various influential churchmen, such as Ambrose and Jerome, found sex anathema. However, the identification of original sin with sexuality is a product of Augustine, Bishop of Hippo (not the one who evangelized England). Augustine's anti-sexual views were accentuated by the fall of Rome in 410, which he saw as a product of sexual immorality. The cult of the Virgin Mary was institutionalised in his day, as it became necessary to stress that Jesus was born free of sin, via a virgin. The story of Adam and Eve became fundamentally distorted, with Eve offering Adam the apple as a symbol of sexual temptation. Adam's acceptance meant that the descending generations of humanity were automatically born into sin, as the sexual act was the means. (The original story is quite different, of course. By eating the apple A and E had become conscious of their own individuality, thus separation from nature). The Augustinian version stressed that only one stainless like Jesus could be the redeemer of humanity, and thus the Virgin Mary rose to such exaltation. The obvious question, was the Virgin Mary herself born of a virgin mother, seems to have remained ignored. The segregation of women into virgins and whores with a few in between thus presumably dates from Augustine's warped theology. Incidentally, he also believed that instead of being expelled from the church, heretics should be 'compelled to come in', i.e. recant and conform or be destroyed. He thus paved the way for the later Inquisition. It is difficult to imagine one person more responsible for the gloom of the medieval outlook, with its guilts and repressions (the doctrine that human salvation proceeded only via faith, i.e. the church, and not through human reason) than Augustine. Thank heavens for the Renaissance and Reformation.

Subject: Yeah, that sums it up [nt] From: Neville To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:15:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Christianty and the Sexual Problem From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:56:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, You seem to have made a thorough study of these issues, and possibly my queries are not relevant. One is that my reading of the sex issue as it pertained to priests was purely economic, as in the Maharaji cult. A married priest requires not just shelter food and clothing for himself but for his dependents as well. Also the much hailed virginity of Mary, was some kind of mistranslation from the early texts. Just wondering Bolly

Subject: About Catholic Priests... From: Cynthia To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:53:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, How are you? I want to comment on your post. A married priest requires not just shelter food and clothing for himself but for his dependents as well. Pedophilia doesn't have anything to do with whether or not priests are married. There are many pedophiles who are married and abuse children--it's a great cover for them. They are your next door neighbor, the guy who runs the grocery story, coaches the school team, works in daycare, teaches at school, and volunteers to take kids on field trips. They have their own children but probably leave them alone, but not always, as in my case. Every incest perpetrator is not necessarily a pedophile--there is a distinction. The MO is similar, but pedophiles tend to keep it out of the family. They are indistinguishable from any other men except for their perverse crimes which they know how to hide very well, through instilling fear, coercion and threats to kids if they tell. I think the reason that so many priests have committed these crimes is because of the protection which has been provided to them by the Church. I'm not alone in the assessment. The priesthood has been a pretty cozy place for these characters; and all priests are not pedophiles. They just have a weird mindset about secrecy in that church. I know a lot about this because I was raised by a devout RCC family and extended family. It is about money with the Roman Catholic Church, but they've got so much of it I doubt this recent scandal will close down the Vatican. Lots and lots of money there, plus, they been making secret settlements for decades. In the case of Jagdeo, Maharaji is a small time crook compared to what the Church has done to cover up the pedophiles. This doesn't minimize or excuse Maharaji, but his operation is much smaller potatoes than the RCC. I also want to tell you that sexual abuse is not a sex issue; there's a definite distinction there too. It's about the abuse of power over those who are weaker using sex, perverted, yes, but it's not sex. Oh what a delightful subject:( Be well, Cynthia

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:57:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gnosticism is a form of Persian mysticism which was adapted to religions in the area we call the Middle East. There were Jewish Gnostics and later Christian Gnostics and just plain Gnostics. 'Gnosis' means 'knowledge' and Gnostics claimed to possess a secret knowledge. They Christian Gnostics possessed some incredibly complicated (and goofy) cosmologies.

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: bill To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 15:03:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mickey the P. How come, I wonder, is the devil subject so unexplored in the religions. It may not be cool to say that there is an intelligent problem maker and to think that the pathways of graduated evil behaviours have a smart awareness to the gravity that pulls people onward in those directions. Hell, we only have so many years, so I can see why most folks never pursue the subject, but why the religions dont study it and have a whole opinion on it that easily makes sense to any living human is, it seems to me, an opportunity that hell, YOU could take on and get some kudos from whomever. People all around me react to each other and thier kids with the idea in thier head that they -could be- and -should be- having a life that is pretty much problem of incident free. And they have the notion that OTHERS ARE living like that. People with more money, or with better spouses, or better kids or better co-workers, ect. Where in the religious message is the info that cuts to the core of peoples lives, that they are in a world where problems and dilemmas and have a concious active force, sponsored by god, as jesus admitted, 'the devil knows not for whom he works' working against them and that NO one, anywhere, is immune. I heard recently that the word blasphemy was for those that called god the devil. Well, I do. He is playing a game with all us and thats that facts. Not from a book, from the evidence all around me. Some say it is pessimistic. Well, I dont, at least I am now more hip to the gamehere. We cant have a life of heaven on earth here, so the mess up guy is here to make sure NO ONE gets to skate through life without a pound of flesh removed regularly. Some think, well I know someone who seems to have no major stuff happening, well, you dont live with them, dont know thier issues, or, just wait, stuff is coming, or you dont know what gets to them, or what has happened, ect. It is an intelligent, intrusive force that is NOT in our favor and -serving god- does not give one immunity, as the media is trumpeting now in the usa about the priest issue here. We are supposed to :look to god: or as the buddists do, TRY to become the god, which is ridiculous, but the regular person does not need to hear about god, they need to understand about the obstacle maker in their lives and have some understanding on that. Protestants avoid the subject also. got to go

Subject: bill and the Devil From: Mickey the Pharisee To: bill Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:14:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: bill, I don't believe in a personal manifestation of evil or an 'an intelligent problem maker,' as you call it. There are several books available concerning the evolution of the idea of the devil or satan: 'Antichrist: Two Thousand Years of the Human Facination with Evil' by Bernard McGinn is excellent, and 'The Origin of Satan' by Elain Pagels, while a bit weak (I didn't learn anything new from that book) is a good introduction to the subject. In the book of Job, one of the earliest books in the Bible, Satan is a member of the Heavenly Court and he and God start messing with Job on a bet (this is an extremely simplified explanation). By the time the gospels were written, Satan spent all his time trying to get everyone to be evil and do wrong; this leads, IMHO, to a total lack of responsibility for one's own actions. I think that those Christians who are obsessed with the idea of the devil tend to give him more power than they actual give God. Life is hard, but I don't blame it on the devil.

Subject: bill the Devil From: bill To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 04:18:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI Mickey, Thanks for the reply, by the way, reading your posts way below, I see you work with some really poor folks as well as other levels of society. 3 out the 4 boys I have have just started making money and I reccomended that they take 10% and give it to just that level of poverty that you deal with. How about if we send money and items to you to give out? You are a busy guy so I dont want to drag you through a subject you are not really iterested in, or a subject that you feel may have meager merit... There seems to be a constant cloud around the affairs of men and we are not able to work out the issues and or even solve the dilemma of how to present the workings of god in life to the next generation. They always inherit a world where some factor keeps the place in a turmoil. That leaves me with two questions, WHat reason for the turmoil? And to properly answer that, I first need to know what causes and keeps the turmoil intact in spite of the attempts by humans to bring order. Any guesses?

Subject: Re: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: Neville To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:12:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: While we're waiting for Mickey to come back... These are BIG subjects, Bill. There have got to be entire libraries dedicated to demonology, but probably even more words have been written about the problem of suffering in the world. You are seeing life as a game in which God dumps on us all. Well lila is a Hindu concept and is supported by Hindu writings, but I suggest that when you look at the New Testament you get a quite different picture: a God prepared to suffer. Christ was down in the dirt, pain and frustration along with us. This was not some remote God playing games with our lives, but one prepared to experience first-hand our vulnerability and despair. That's a God I can respect. Neville

Subject: Enlightenment, Livia.. From: bill To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 04:32:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, I am sure I posted to you here a couple days ago, but it seems to be missing. It mustnot have made it here. I cant remember all I wrote to you, but if you will, and if I aint too vague, will you take a stab at what I wrote to Mickey and reposted just below..................... --There seems to be a constant cloud around the affairs of men and we are not able to work out the issues and or even solve the dilemma of how to present the workings of god in life to the next generation. They always inherit a world where some factor keeps the place in a turmoil. That leaves me with two questions, WHat reason for the turmoil? And to properly answer that, I first need to know what causes and keeps the turmoil intact in spite of the attempts by humans to bring order. Any guesses?

Subject: Re: Another Intriguing Tale.. From: Cynthia To: L:ivia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 08:53:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, I heard m say in the late 90s that he has NEVER read any of the scriptures, the Gita, the upanishads, nor the Bible. This was right after he quoted from one of them, the Gita, I think. He said he only knows the quotes from what people have told him. I also heard him say that he does read books, but when he reads them he goes to the end to find out what happens--he doesn't like surprises, I guess:) Cynthia

Subject: Hey Anthony... From: gerry To: Anthony Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 17:20:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please choose one name and stick with it. We wish you would use a single name when posting because using multiple names are confusing. Otherwise have at it! Thanks, gerry the multiple

Subject: Re: Another Intriguing Tale.. From: The Falcon To: Anthony Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 15:47:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: don't tell me-Maharaj was as ignorant and clueless as ever (can he read by the way?)and stalling - no conundrum neccessary. The Bible is a mish-mash of tribal myth and pagan philosophy (sorry to Dep and Mickey the Pharisee)redeemed with one nice quote- Jesus summed it up, 'Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all your mind and your neighbour as yourself'(Try J.G. Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' instead) Wipe your arse on the rest of the pages, utter clap-trap!!!!!!!! the pagan Falcon (read and weep!)

Subject: Hmm, not like you to sit From: Anthony To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 05:23:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on the fence like this, Falcon. Actually, there is one more beautiful line : 'Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.' Whatever you take that to mean, it always gives me a shiver up my spine with its unearthly and almost uncanny beauty. I love all the Sermon on the Mount, even though some of the beatitudes are rendered a bit bizarre by William Tyndale's slightly oddball translation here and there. 'Blessed are the poor in spirit: for their's is the kingdom of heaven.' Hmm, what's he really trying to say? On this theme, it doesn't actually matter where and when and how the Bible was manufactured, enjoy the bits that turn you on, and chuck the rest. As Thomas Jefferson says in that post on The Founding Fathers: 'I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples.' Pat W. also endorsed that, in the same thread. Anthony, who is now completely blissed out, so is abandoning work and going off for a pint or three and to roll in a gutter

Subject: Re: Hmm, not like you to sit From: the Falcon To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:41:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: if this is a fence it has fallen over, yes that is another good quote but The Bible is badly translated as well as everything that I said above. Now the Ramayana-there's a story! all the best

Subject: Re: Hmm, not like you to sit From: Neville To: the Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:17:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Huh? I can't think of any piece of writing EVER that has has more attention given its translation than the Bible. True, there have been some notable bugger-ups in the past, but today's Bibles are the product of more concentrated scholarship than has ever been applied to any single set of documents. Neville

Subject: Translation, please From: Anthony To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 02:45:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Falcon was prompted to say that by my comment that occasionally even William Tyndale was a bit obscure. How would you exactly interpret the phrase: 'Blessed are the poor in spirit: for their's is the kingdom of heaven' Anthony

Subject: Re: Translation, please From: Neville To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 09:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...Oh, how about, 'Blessed are those who recognise their spiritual poverty.' As opposed to the Pharisees who thought they had it made. But it is a fairly mysterious ref. I sometimes suspect that the poor are blessed because they have few illusions about the nature of life. Unquestionably Christ was on their side. At the time they were suffering terribly under Roman tax laws, and large chunks of the Gospels concern Christ lambasting the Pharisees for adding to the burdens of the poor by multiplying and emphasising 'spiritual' law so the poor lived with guilt as well as poverty. (Rather as later clerics created a whole matrix of sins associated with sex, adding to people's burdens.) But I'm getting carried away... Neville

Subject: Maybe it isn't From: Anthony To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 04:29:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: so intriguing after all. I thought it may have been about the gnostics - that they had deliberately been excluded from the Bible - but we're never going to know.

Subject: Perhaps it's not that From: Anthony To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 03:52:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: intriguing after all. I thought it might have had to do with the gnostics - with Maharaji saying the true story wasn't in the Bible at all. However, nobody's going to know.

Subject: Re: Perhaps it's not that From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 06:33:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh! my brothers and sisters, Look and ye will find, The kingdom of god is within, Or some such, have to go and prepare for confession, Peace be with you, love Bolly

Subject: Nice one Bolly! From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 03:43:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I liked that other one too - If I don't follow through, do I get to keep the toaster and the fishknives? (Ha!) Keep them rolling.. Hope you win the Lottery.

Subject: Re: Nice one Bolly! From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 04:05:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony Hi! I'm intrigued by your matchmaking offer to set me up with Sig, I checked and the guys about 140 years old. I am far too fragile to push the bathchair of some old git who never did women any favours, but lived well by exploiting them. Love Bolly

Subject: While, Bolly, there could indeed be From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 10:43:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: unpredictable consequences in embarking fuller acquantance with a 140 year old coke- and sex-crazed fruitcake, might hesitancy to do so suggest lurking unresolved personal inhibitions? How oft we ascribe our hesitancies to the *wisdom* of previous experiences! Stalling our life’s chances through the over-imperative of the logical over the intuitive? While basically, we are just shit-knacky of change. Examine the positive aspects - annual holidays in Vienna (my cousin spent 11 blissful years there as a ballet and modern dancer at the Theater de la Ville, where Beethoven wooed the illuminati of his day with his later symphonies..) Do you see your future life in terms of a sequence of mobile libraries offering Christopher Hitchens tomes, or as a real and valid Ode to Joy? With respect, only one person can resolve this dilemma - YOU. Anthony, who would never abuse a counsellor-client relationship by positing conclusive diagnoses, but only suggest she enquire deeply within (examine dreams for the next week?) before embarking life-changing paradigms

Subject: Re: While, Bolly, there could indeed be From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:42:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony, The trip to Vienna bit might be okay, but doesn't he spend most of the time hanging out with his mate Karl in some north London cemetery. That's what Jenny Diski claimed in a novel I forget the name of, but it was very good. I havent heard Ode to Joy played properly for years, though I occasionally torture the tune when attempting my exercises from the teach yourself piano book. Love Bolly

Subject: Pianos are human too From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 13:26:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony, The trip to Vienna bit might be okay, but doesn't he spend most of the time hanging out with his mate Karl in some north London cemetery. That's what Jenny Diski claimed in a novel I forget the name of, but it was very good. I havent heard Ode to Joy played properly for years, though I occasionally torture the tune when attempting my exercises from the teach yourself piano book. Love Bolly --- Hmm. I'm not really that exercised over religious things, though my discovery last year of what some of those early churchmen did to future generations screams to the remote corners of the universe. What potentially bothers me more is the injustice to your piano. I'm quite a good pianist, myself. Chivalry makes me offer you a couple of chaste lessons. I live in the north-east of England. Are you anywhere in the catchment area? Anthony, not so much a defender of the faith, but the rights of innocent dumb musical instruments.

Subject: I'm all ears... [nt] From: Neville To: Anthony Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 12:22:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ATTENTION: Gerry--re: F8 From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 09:33:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't seem to use the F8 board. Everything I click on brings me to an error message, on both IE and Netscape Navigator. I can't even log in. ?????:(

Subject: Anyboards is doing maintenance From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 10:11:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: They didn't say for how long. Ham and Chuck are both working on the design and Ham especially has put in a lot of time and I wanted to give them some kudos for a fine job.

Subject: Any chance of some visual feedback on f8 everyone From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:49:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Always good to get feedback from the punters who are gonna be using it. The yellow bar topic header I think looks a bit garish sometimes, even though I love the yellow, but if I take it lighter afraid it might look a bit laura ashley and anti-septic. I was trying for a subtle post-modern, a little on the safe side, if anyones interested.

Subject: here's the link From: hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:54:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: http://www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: partying all night, smarten up boy From: hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 02:58:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And not even that trashed forum 8 www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: I like the Verdi Marble Heading... From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:49:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Verdi marble is mined in Vermont about 30 miles south of me...the only place in the world they mine it. The yellow is too well, too dark of a yellow...I would prefer something lighter, and the gray is a bit dark for my taste, but, don't worry about a Laura Ashley look...as long as it's not a Prem Rawat look you'll be okay with me:)

Subject: Thumbs up From: Patty sez... To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 09:25:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And she too would like to see the background justa touch lighter and she enjoys all the other design elements and thinks they work well together. Nice job, Ham. -gerry

Subject: Thanks to all... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 11:13:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just wonderin'... Glad it's not me and thanks to Chuck and Ham and you, too, Gerry! It's looking good and actually quite easy to get used to... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Going off-line for a few days (OT) From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 08:29:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll be taking a few days' break from the world of computers even deeper in the Latvia wilderness than I am now, so if I don't respond to any EPO related business, that'll be the reason. My usual reasons for not responding will apply on my return:) John Brauns part-time webmaster www.ex-premie.org

Subject: Summer reading From: Headcase To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 04:40:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Recommended reading for all you 'radicals, gadflies,mavericks,rebels,angry young (wo)men and dissidents': Letters to a young contrarian by Christopher Hitchens Well worth the cover price of £16.99

Subject: Re: Summer reading From: Bolly To: Headcase Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 06:34:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Broke at the moment can I borrow your copy? At the barricades Bolly

Subject: What? No Libraries Bolly?:) From: Cynthia To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 08:59:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can't afford to buy lots of books but I am one of those people who adores libraries. If they don't have it, they find it or buy it for the library...give it a try! Love, Cynth

Subject: Re: What? No Libraries Bolly?:) From: Bolly To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 04:00:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Cynthia, I am actually one of lifes library trawlers, and spend excessive amounts of time in them. I have to confess that having discovered the thriller section I became hooked. I blame your compatriots for this. The US spawns excellent female writers, and publishers are willing to promote them. There is also a budgeting dillemna in British libraries, should they stock tons of tosh for the masses or serious tomes for the high minded. Although the groups are often one and the same consumer it is a widely held tradition that us what has intellectual pretentions never read equivalants of the National Enquirer. All that waffle is to excuse my mental inertia where the choice presents itself I'm more likely to hunt down a recent Sara Peretski. Suitably chastened Bolly

Subject: Re: What? No Libraries Bolly?:) From: Cynthia To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 08:27:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Bolly, It's the same here...the libraries are filled with mysteries and thrillers, and of course, money for books is always down there on the town budgets. My librarian can always get me books I want through intra-loan systems, which includes the universities and colleges in the state. Whenever I really want a book, she usually finds it for me... I, too, am a triller and mystery reader. I recently finished about four non-fiction books which were tough reads and now I'm reading a medical mystery...off to fantasy land:):):) Love, Cynthia

Subject: from ELK From: A premie joke To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:49:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Three men and one mango A born again Christian, a Muslim, and a person who recently received Self-Knowledge were marooned on a remote and barren desert island, and had only one mango to eat. That evening they decided that the one who awakens with the most elegant dream eats the mango. The following morning, the Christian said: 'I dreamed that I died, went to heaven and it was all gold'. The Muslim said: 'I dreamed that I died, went to heaven and it was all platinum.' The person with Self-Knowledge said: 'I dreamed that the two of you died and went to heaven, so I already ate the mango and planted the seed!' In truth, consciousness, and bliss. Rajanand Miami, Florida Rajanand would like to correspond with anyone who would like to 'contact me in the honour of sharing this 'Endless L_O_V_ E.' Contact details are available from this site...

Subject: Rajanand - how pompous [nt] From: Livia To: A premie joke Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:14:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Reminds me of the one... From: PatD To: A premie joke Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 17:11:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...3 convicts in a prison cell. 'Wotchoo in for'.....armed robbery....'wotchoo get'....7 yrs. 'Wotchoo in for'....fraud....'wotchoo get'......6 mnths. 'Wotchoo in for'....water pistol...????? Whaddya mean water pistol,how can you get banged up for a water pistol. 'Thing is I hate skinheads,water pistol full of petrol...skinhead...match...flooomph' Oh shit, wotchoo get? '20 to the gallon'.

Subject: should be called the selfish knowledge nt From: Moll of Mole To: A premie joke Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:53:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: The blame game ... From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:35:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A mate has just rung me and said that when he dies and if he discovers that M is actually the Lord of the Universe he is going to blame me. And all of you guys on F7 for waking him up. :) In the meantime he sends his thanks and good wishes to you guys. He is a shy boy, likes reading a lot but not posting. Love to all, Thorin

Subject: Re: The blame game ... From: Joy To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 01:16:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin. Tell your buddy (is it the one I met?) that that's just residual guilt/fear stirred up by M's constant hinting around the idea that he IS the LOTU all these years. It was very cleverly done to instill that sort of fear. Chuck it out the window!! Prem Pal Singh Rawat is no more the Lord of the Universe than you or I. And even on the miniscule chance that the greedy, philandering, pot-smoking alcoholic is somebody special, would he still want anything to do with him? Not the sort of LOTU I'd be bothered with, that's for sure. It's a hard thing to admit that we have made an error in judgment all these years, and been hoodwinked by someone as off-the-wall as PPSR. But with all these other charming fellow hoodwink-ees to help us through, it ain't so bad, really; live and learn, I guess. I look at it this way, at least it's opened my eyes to the guru con game, and there's no way I'd get suckered in again in this lifetime. I like the lines in the Iris DeMent song: 'Everybody is wonderin' what and where they all came from Everybody is worryin' bout where they're gonna go When the whole thing's done But no one knows for certain And so it's all the same to me I think I'll just let the mystery be ... I believe in love and I live my life accordingly But I choose to let the mystery be.' One of my all-time favorite songs (and artists) Love to you and buddy, Joy

Subject: tell him no worries From: janet To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 05:14:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i already checked it out thoroghly. he's safe. he aint gonna find out no such thing when he gets over there.multiple reports confirm this. seriously.

Subject: not so sure about that, Janet From: cq To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 07:02:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... I mean look at St Peter - denies him 3 times, and he ends up as the father of the whole bloody church!

Subject: Christians, NDEs, etc.... From: Cynthia To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 09:52:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: St. Peter denies Christ three times but he also has the convenience of the Christian (especially the Catholic) concepts of forgiveness and confession; confess and your sins are absolved. I am skeptical about NDE's. Because the brain is deprived of blood a lot is happening to say the least. This article is interesting as another explanation for the experiences that humans have when their heart stops and blood stops flowing to the brain. Personally, I'm not committed to NDEs proving an afterlife or simple scientific brain thing. I'm leaning toward the science however, because of confabulation. The jury is still out as to what happens during an NDE. The universality of humans having hearts pumping blood to our brains isn't romantic as saying ''I died and came back,'' but I do believe that with blood deprivation, the brain fights for life and in that fight a lot happens, visions, light, tunnels, etc. I think confabulation and religious orientation contribute to what is seen by the brain while it's fighting for life. Other than that, I'm open to proof:) Nobody's been able to prove an afterlife because the ones who actually die don't come back with any reports. NDE Study www.nidsci.org/articles/whinnery/tech_1.html

Subject: However, Here's a Link... From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 12:58:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...that provides information from all sides of the NDE argument:) NDE Links www.beyondtheveil.net/ddlinks.html#Near Death Experiences

Subject: Re: The lame game ... From: Neville To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:50:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to M's general doctrine, when we die our personalities go out of the window and all that survives is 'atman'--some sort of impersonal life force. Who gives a damn what happens to 'atman'? So I'm not worried about dying and finding M was right, since all he ever offered was an embroidered form of oblivion. (Finding that Dante was right--now that *would* be a worry.) Neville

Subject: dante's righter than MJ From: janet To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 04:17:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: seriously. i happened into a totally unexpected passage in my life about this that i guess started in 1976 with the death of my mother and culminated in 1991 with repeated contact from The Other Side, that included library research, interviews, companions who had the same experiences with the same Visitations I was having, at the same time, and relentless efforts to disprove the experiences that all failed. I can tell you from all of that, that Dante was more right than MJ, and that prem pal is Nobody in the other world. but jesus is more than you can imagine. the bible doesnt do him justice. for a better idea, read the Urantia Book and the Course in Miracles--if you can handle that much staggering information. I didnt take it on faith. I don't 'do' faith. i read them in the course of my trying to get a difinitive answer to what the hell i was having happen to me, and i got my answers straight from those i asked to speak to, who were named in the books. and you can too, if you want to, badly [and bravely] enough. and i still don't 'do' faith. prem pal is an opportunistic mortal man. period.

Subject: Re: Dante's righter than MJ From: Neville To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 11:13:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must confess to skepticism, Janet. My reading suggests that NDEs are heavily influenced by expectation--that your NDE depends on your culture/ religious background. Do you have evidence to the contrary? (The Urantia Book? I'll look around for it.) Frankly, I find many NDEs reported by people in Christian countries seem just too twee and comforting--the theology seems Sunday School. I'd like to be wrong (I am a Christian), but... Neville

Subject: Re: Dante's righter than MJ From: The Falcon To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 01:08:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NDE visions are different but similar for every individual. If you are Hindu the light at the end of the tunnel is Krishna, for a Christian-Christ, for a PWK-M etc. This phenomenon is also experienced via meditation and with the better hallucinogens such as DMT but certainly doesn't mean that the vision is Reality, it is merely an astral phenomena.

Subject: re: my teacher From: a student To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 22:42:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am currently involved in a training class at my place of employment. I find myself comparing the teacher of this class to an EX-teacher of mine. My current teacher has made it very clear what the goal is and what we as individuals we must do to accomplish this goal. However, and this is what I find interesting, he has taken responsibility for the overall success of the group. He sees failure as a reflection on his ability to communicate. Comments?

Subject: Re: re: my teacher From: Livia To: a student Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:23:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Illuminating. Yes, now wouldn't that be refreshing, for M to take some responsibility for the failure of Knowledge to spread! But no, in order to maintain the illusion that he is somehow perfect and infallible (while at the same time denying that he is perfect and infallible) he must blame all failures, problems, setbacks on the premies. An unsustainable position, in my view, and the reason for the defection of thousands upon thousands of premies. The only things that keep them hooked in are: 1 'What if' he is the Lord after all? 2 Good experiences in meditation and the conditioned view that they somehow occur because of him in some way. 3 The continued need, for psychological reasons, for a father figure one cannot quite reach. 4 Better stick to nurse for fear of something worse. Livia PS Oh, and the deep imprinting of 30 years...

Subject: Re: re: my teacher From: BT To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 13:14:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is noble of him to take responsibility for the success of the class, but not necessarily accurate. There are factors in learning that are out of the teacher's control, such as the ability, motivation and level of commitment/interest of the students. Sometimes teachers have to teach resistent learners, especially when giving classes that are mandated. Now, in regard to M. and his teaching. His approach has been to encourage, inspire and motivate. However, he has NEVER given a clue as to what it means to 'cross the ocean of maya' as we used to sing in Arti--which was only possible by Guru's Grace. He has said that he too is learning, and that he will always be three steps ahead of us. He has NEVER said that we are on a path of mastery or that we too may become Masters (whatever that means). So at the same time that he has attempted to encourage and inspire, he has also limited his students. He has set up a Parent/Child relationship with his students, where he is the Parent, and we are the children. The problem with this analogy is that in real life children grow up to become adults. In M's world, there is no potential for the children to grow up. The children remain children, figuratively speaking. But the children are growing up, have grown up. Since in his domain doesn't provide room for this, for spiritual maturation, the premies have no option but to leave M. It reminds me a little of the relationship between Freud and Carl Jung. Jung was Freud's student. At some point Jung broke with Freud, disagreed with him. He had the courage to follow his own calling, his own inspiration, and contributed immeasurably to the field of psychology in his own right. If Freud had been M. and Jung had been a premie, Freud would have discouraged Jung, almost prevented him, from ever spreading his wings. His brilliance, inspiration and contributions would have been lost to the world. It is quite possible that M. has, perhaps unwittingly, stunted the growth of hundreds or thousands of people by insisting that they follow and not question the Master.

Subject: teaching skills From: Livia To: BT Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 07:34:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very good post. A note about teaching, though, I've just completed a (specialised)teaching course and have learned that if the pupil fails to learn, it is always down to the teacher. A really good teacher will research learning styles and find ways to motivate/inspire/enthuse any pupil. The teacher always needs to look at themself and work out where they are going wrong. In my own experience of teaching, I have recently worked with one pupil who seemed impossible to teach ('learning difficulties') until I took the time to work out what would work for her. I then tried a completely different approach and she has made enormous leaps. Admittedly this was in a one-to-one situation and I can see how difficult this approach would be to administer in a classroom or with any large group. But necessary nonetheless - just a lot harder. In Maharaji's case he has failed in that he has refused to recognise or give any intrinsic value to the myriad other pursuits the premies might be interested in. I think this has ultimately been enormously alienating for premies, and left them feeling at odds with their lives 'in the world', whatever they care to admit. Maharaji's skills at teaching people how to really live are very limited. Livia

Subject: syunted growth, exactly!! (NT) From: The Falcon To: BT Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 02:30:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Really good post, BT From: Anthony To: BT Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:54:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Bless him. From: Bryn To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 04:41:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'He sees failure as a reflection on his ability to communicate.' Thats inspiring, and rings true to me. Your previous teachers goal was to keep himself in his roll as teacher at all costs. So in my case (25 yrs) he too was quite successful in his own dark way! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: re: my teacher From: AV To: a student Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 04:14:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was speaking to a close friend the other day about teaching; he was saying the sign of a good teacher (among others) is an inbuilt desire for his students to actually excel beyond and exceed the teachers' own learning , rather than keep them in a frame where the student feels they will never reach a certain level, that something of their learning is always impossibly out of reach.. (how depressing..). What's that saying? you teach by learning, and learn by teaching. Makes sense, nothing is static, all is in motion.

Subject: Re: my teacher From: Vicki To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:14:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As one who works with kids of all ages, one of my greatest joys is when a child catches me in a mistake! I hoot and holler and make a big deal out of it. Why? Because I take kids from square zero who can't read. If they catch me mispronouncing something or mistakenly reading a word, then it means they've learned a quantum amount to get to that point. I don't often make a mistake during a session, and if I do I correct immediately modeling the behaviour, but I love it when they beat me to the punch! Getting excited is such a novel surprise to them. No one ever acknowledges that as progress, just rudeness. I tell them that's the goal, for them to read better than me. I tell their parents I learn more from the kids than they do from me. Sometimes it freaks them out, but it's true. Maybe not the technical stuff, but always always always some insight. Lots of times I learn a new trick through their eyes that helps another child down the road. It's easy to take the 'credit' because they only experience failure until we go through the paces. Really, it is their perseverence, their concentration, their facing the unlearning of poor coping habits and adopting skills, not an easy feat. It is easier to take a child that's never been taught a thing about reading, no matter how old their age, than one who has been taught badly. Watching my kids who are now in college, go through their school years, and even still during these college years, it always strikes me that the more phenomenal the teacher, the more they delight in the student's ability to excel their own. The mediocre and questionable belittle and undermine their students while elevating their own self-exalted status. It is an incredible 'high' when the flow happens. It's like an even exchange of energy that increases without boundaries. If a teacher is sitting on some sort of pie in the sky pedestal that is supported by ego, it's just one of those classes where the kids want to get the grade and get out. Or drop the class. But they are never energized or excited about learning with that person. As a side note, there's a history teacher at the local college. She was so interesting and innovative in how she taught the class. The kids would 'shush' each other if someone was being inconsiderate and making noise, or if they let their cell phone ring, or interrupted her with redundant questions due to lack of attention. My kids would come home babbling with excitement about whatever she taught them that day. She literally had them on the edge of their seats and in the palm of her hand. But she lost them all. How? Her tests were impossible. She structured them in such a befuddling way, with the rationalization that it was for higher order thinking skills. They were not based on the material taught or the books read. The class scores got lower and lower as the semester progressed. Kid's grade points were getting lowered so most dropped her class, even though they loved it. Those that stuck it out, figuring if they studied harder, would make it. Didn't help. These scores completely demoralized this teacher. She started lecturing in a monotone voice, yelling at students, mocking them and making fun of them. She threw it all away. All she could talk about was her grade point in college, in grad school, etc. She never once asked the kids what they learned from her. She just berated them for not doing well on her crazy tests. And some of these kids were honor students. So the class ended on a sour note and the kids warning their friends not to take her class, which was the direct opposite of how the semester began. It was such a disappointment and loss because these kids initially couldn't wait for the days when they had her class. So yes, you are correct, teaching is learning and learning is teaching.

Subject: More fun on EPO!! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:47:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First Lord's World tour ever! Including 2 excellent articles: 1/ Washington Post article by Henry Allen visiting Balyouguesswhat at Joan Apter's ..... 2/ I WAS A TEEN-AGE GURU: Story of Maharaj Ji of India, by Peter Greenberg and a couple or 2 of new pictures.

Subject: Re: More fun on EPO!! From: Djuro To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 07:55:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the nice link.

Subject: Who's sari now? From: Sorry To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 05:56:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, there's those sari's being worn by Sandy Collier and I'm sure Joan Apter and Glenn Whitaker (at his Sat. afternoon X-dressing party). They were right, we did take the Indian thing a little too far. Well, I guess that's all been righted in the revisionist video, 'passages'. Whew! I thought they were lying.

Subject: Prem Pal/George W. Bush From: Gregg To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 21:56:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These shenanigans, the early days, you know? They don't mean anything. Say today's PWK's. Just like GWBush's skanky insider trading days have nothing to do with his current presidential practices. What's past is prologue. Happy Independence Day!

Subject: Re: Prem Pal/George W. Bush From: Vicki To: Gregg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:29:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it was all Georgie's lawyer's fault, donchyaknow, due to a clerical error. He did nothing wrong. Hmmmm, seems to be a pattern here. Blame everything on everyone else and admit nothing. Yep, that's the ticket for becoming a president and lord of the universe!

Subject: Memories are made of this... From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 13:38:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that JM & whoever kept all this stuff. It's strange seeing it all again & remembering. This bit in particular set my memory going,something I'd entirely forgotten. 'I was studying to be an architect, but I found I was unable to concentrate on my work. I was nervous, restless, and doing very badly,' he said. 'A friend of a friend who had seen the Light suggested I listen to the teachings of the Maharaj Ji as they could be a solution to my problems. 'I took his advice, and eventually was shown the Light. I spent a year in India, and since then my whole life has changed for the better,' he added. 'I have given up smoking, I am now good at my job, and I get on well with my parents for the first time in my life.' On my very 1st visit to Golden Manor ashram,which I only went to because a friend of mine was insistent,I read that in a photocopied booklet of stuff that was there. I thought,'who is this fucked up jerk'. I was good at my job,got on well with my parents,didn't see what smoking had to do with anything. Myself & Frank laughed about that & other things on the train home,but he never went back & I did. A few months later I gave up the job I'd been good at to go & see the Lord of the Universe in India. I suppose the moral is that you're never too old to fuck yourself up.

Subject: Americans: Hally Independence Day NT From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 04:55:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: Americans: Happy Independence Day NT From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 04:56:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I know this is below me, but... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 19:43:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (snicker) www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/uploads/WWNDANCETITS.jpg

Subject: New old stuff on E¨PO !!! From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:31:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Report of the World Peace Tour of Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj !!!!!! That booklet, as well as lots of other documents escaped from the latest boon fires.

Subject: Re: New old stuff on E¨PO !!! From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 08:00:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A quote from the new stuff on EPO (linked above): 'A mahatma, one whose job is to transmit The Knowledge (If the guru did it himself it would blow your mind,' says Brigham)' Ahem..

Subject: Re: New old stuff on E¨PO !!! From: Thorin To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 14:41:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bless the cotton socks whoever saved all this stuff! What a blast! I bet that even M would be interested in seeing this. Sheesh what a lot of memories flood back. Always had a soft spot for Venetia. Spent lots of time with her in the early 70's when she came to UK for a few years. She rescued me from a pretty horrendous time I was having at one point and then spent several months living in the same house with her before she went back to Japan. Bumped into her a few times after that. Anyone know what she doing these days? Saphlanand. I heard that during the 80's he was camped out in a tent for ages on the US west coast with a bunch of other premies - presumably hanging round for the lord to arrive by their canvas. He showed me Yoni Mudra technique - instant connection, no hanging around! :) Thorin

Subject: Clarification From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 01:32:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In my post above I make a reference to Yoni Mudra Meditation Technique. Just to clarify, my reference to Yoni is only to the meditation technique as described in EPO (http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/medtech.htm#YONI) I was not aware, until after my post, that Yoni could possibly be inferred in other ways. That was not my intention. I hope this is clear and apologise if any other inference was taken. Thorin

Subject: Re: to J-M From: AV To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:18:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thank you for this, god!!, time warp...

Subject: Saphalanand was great From: Jean-Michel To: AV Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:25:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a poet. And Joan (Apter I guess) an incredible gopi !

Subject: Re: Saphalanand was great From: Anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 11:36:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I knew saphlanand, where is he now

Subject: Re: Saphalanand was great From: The Falcon To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Last seen in the West Country rightly informing the populace that Knowledge works better without the guru bollocks! lovely soul God bless him.

Subject: (OT) some news on my son From: janet To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 05:35:14 (PDT) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: some of you may remember me reporting here back in may that my 23 yr old son stepan had run away. He of the schizophrenia and mania and delusional beliefs so reminiscent of our own world fantasies back in the 70's. well, here's an update. he is sitting in a psychiatric hospital a short bus ride away from me, he's been captured and hospitalized since may 24th, and been accepting his correct meds for about 4 weeks now. As the meds took effect, his head began to clear and he started to see in retrospect some of the things he did on his spree that damaged us, saw why they were the wrong way to go, and he had, in his own words, several breakthroughs in group therapy in which he cried and felt his feelings and poured out anger and sorrow and hatred and frustration, mostly at me, for being what he viewed as 'so mean and abusive to him' this last 4 years. He had some valid complaints about me which I admitted to him were so, but a good deal of his unhappiness was at my ferocious discipline of not letting him just wander and drift in his naive fantasies in his imaginary concept of reality while he lived under the same roof I did. I had to be relentless and demanding and insistent, to get him to stay grounded in the real world and the present circumstances, otherwise he just floated away into intricate, utterly unrelatable mind plays that rendered him beyond anyone's understanding and reach. It would reveal itself in his speech when endeavoring to have a conversation, and in his writings, when he would come to me with journals he kept, trying to share his thoughts on paper. So I had evolved a daily practice of directing him to perform the needful chores around the house and yard, seeing that he checked the cat's dishes and refilled them every morning at waking, paid attention to the trash and took it out whenever it filled, had him do gardening and yardwork with me outside, apprenticed him to doing the house bills and budget every month with me, including reconciling his checkbook and keeping an eye on our longterm pattern of money spending. He did'nt understand why I overruled his notions of what to take at college, and wanted to take things either too hard for him to succeed in, or classes that wouldnt give him anything he could realistically do anything with, toward a life means of working and supporting himself. I went thru the catalog and marked out what he could realistically attend and have a hope of understanding and turning toward more development with his actual abilities. He wanted to know why I picked those, but when I tried to tell him, he could not absorb and comprehend my answers. It was maddening and heartbbreaking. So while the meds seem to have given him back some clarity and some measure of being able to listen and follow some communication, he still evidences trouble with conversations and important ideas that are critical and vital to his being able to survive in the world. Today when the sun comes up, the hospital will transport him miles out into the sav fernando valley to an isolated brick building facing the industrial railyards, known as division 95 of the superior court. mental health court. or more accurately, mental illness court. he is being put before the state as a candidate for conservatorship, AGAIN, aas in the winter of 98-99, the last time he had to be hospitalized for serious delusional impairment. last time, I stepped forward and volunteered to be his conservator. I did thale up until this past january. I let it lapse in january becse i felt he had been showing progress in comprehending how to handle his responsibilities as an adult, and felt that we could take the chance and take the training wheels off and see how he did without being 'baby sat'. everyone had been teling me i had done an truly incredible job, taking him over and getting him into shape in just 4 years. but as you heard here, as soon as he beleived the conservatorship was over, he took off and went on this spree across the country, putting everyone thru uproar and chaos, costing hundreds of dollars as he went, disturbing people who didnt want to see him, weren't prepared to have him, couldnt afford the disruption of his presence to their work week, their home and family life, their budget, their health--and threw me into turmoil back home, whith not knowing whether i would ever see him again, not knowing what to do with him money, about my rent and bills without him, and even my future and if I would be forced to give up where i live. he did make his way home by mid may, but due to a bizarre argument we had while i tried to make him understand why we were mad at him and how much he cost us to cope with his trip, he called the police--he said, 'to 5150 me before i did it to him'. well, they came, listened to him babble incoherently for an hour, looked at my dossier of his mental history, and the best they could advise him was to get his things and go! !!!! so he grabbed his knapsack, took no coat, and vanished up the street to the beach. and lived as a homeless desperate bum for another week in the immediate neighborhood. this was senseless. word got back to me via phone calls he made to his father on th east coast, that he had it in his mind that he was afraid to come home, or thought he couldnt, or that i didnt want him to. none of which was so. his caseworker, whom he still trusted enough to keep in touch with, arranged for him to enter a live in program called jump street. he came home to get some things and was supposedly off to eneter the program, but he never showed up there. late that night, he appeared on the porch of a woman he was infatuated with, harrassing her, serenading her outside, trying her locks and windows trying to break in, and she finally did what none of us could do- she had him 5150'd by the police at last. thus his spree came to an end. when the sun coms up toay, I am faced with the spectre again of making a the long trip from the beach to the valley railyards, a 2 hour bus trip to be at court by 830am, to sit thru another hearing in a courtroom packed with crazies, their doctors, their lawyers, their families, and face the prospect again of whether to be his conservator again. the hospital has tried to comfort me by saying i don't have to go, that i don't have to play the heavy this time; that they are going to do it for me and for everybody. his doctor will tell the judge Step should go into long term care in a locked facility, which is why he should be conserved. he fits the legal definition of being gravely disabled and unable to care for himself rightly. His notion of all he needs is 'someone he can stay with so he can sign out of the hospital'. he has been calling every phone number he ever saved, of anyone he ever met anywhere, asking this of them so he can get out. he has no access to his disability checks, so any money would have to be bummed from others. I have a thousand dollars in the bank for him, but he can't get that thru his head despite m explaining it to him repeatedly. He fights me when i try to explain that it is unethical and morally not right to hit on people to pay for him when he can pay his own way. he asked me to buy him a 250 minute phone card [more than 4 hours worth of phone calls] which i did, and then i learned he is still calling everyone collect and saying the card isn't useful for that! I woke yesterday and burst into tears before the day began. My root being doesnt want to do this again. I have deep rage that I feel i was made a chump of. I feel like i poured my heart and soul into this last 4 years and i feel like he kicked it in the teeth when given the chance to show what he had learned. I don't want to go down that road again. I asked the public guardian what will happen if he is conserved but I refuse to take the job. She said he will be given to one of their conservators who handles a whole caseload of of such people. The court keeps a list. I have done some looking into this. There are professional conservators, who make a career of watching the lists of the court business, and bidding on the cases of people too impaired to handle their own estates. There is no watchdog agency to keep these people honest. It is a known occurrence for these people to embezzle the wealth of their charges and enrich themselves illegally, because they can. No one checks up on them to see if they are doing what they say they are, the court doesnt have the resources, budget or personnel to monitor what they do, and to ascertain by alternate means whther these conservators actuallyprovide for their charges or ethically preserve their estates. No one brings it to the attention of the law unless someone like a friend or an alert party who knows the conservatee blows a whistle and demands investigation. And even then, nothing might be done. I have met two women locally who were supposedly under conservatorship. one lived homelss in the streets, one lived in a board and care home. both had the same complaints: netierh of them could find out who their conservator was. neither knew their names. neither had a way to reach their conservator. both of them said their conservator never called them, never met them, never came to see them, never checked on their welfare, never expended any effort to see that their basic needs were being met, never gave them any of their money , and neither of them could see why the deal existed at all, given these truths. both of them wanted to know how to get out from under conservatorship and have the control of their lives back legally, sonce conservatorship wasn't doing anything for them but making their way harder and weirder to live by. intheir case, i told each of them to call the court themselves, say who they were, ask to know who their conservators were and a way to reach them, and le they were talking to the court, to get the names of their advocates , kind of like the public defender, who puts their side of the issue to the judge, and demand a hearing be held so that they could each tell the court what their conservator was really doing [not doing] for them and that they wanted control of their affairs bafck to themselves. Now i am faced with this same liklihood with my son. If i refuse to step into the job again, today, then someone wil be handed his case. Someone he doesnt know, that i dont know, that will likely treat him the same as these two women who sought my advice. if i do nothing, and let the system take its course, stepan will be kept in the hospital until a bed opens up at a facility somewhere, and then he will be moved there and processed in as a longterm patient, live in and locked. I will have to turn over care of all his income to the new agent, and there goes the second income that keeps me from losing this house. there goes my internet access. you may not see me anymore. this is his webtv i use to come here. if i cut this boat adrift and let this happen, he gets a taste of how impersonal and uncaring and sterile the world has to be, once you're on your own in life... and i face the unknown of letting go of this house and where to move to next. and my saddest worry is what to do with my seven cats, who are so attached to me they get up and follow me around in a pack, crying, when i take a walk up the street, or just get out of bed to visit the bathroom in the dead of night. cats don't do well with homelessness in the human world. i would have to find a new situation that would let me have that many, and that isnt likely in a city. i admit that ever since i have been a mother, I have become more and more of a control freak. I don't feel at ease with letting events just take their course and watching it. People have pointed out to me that i have trouble accepting help. Right now i have an odd mixed blessingin my house, while stepan is in the hospital. I tapped a former roommate-a younger man i helped in denver who moved to LA with me 9 years ago, whom i got on SSI, who lives rougher than i prefer to. He comes back periodically when he needs me, and when i need him, and he grumblingly stepped into the vacancy created when my son failed to be here for the rent in may. he's using my son's room as his own and paying partial rent for it, and he has a couple of street friends, a young man and woman, who he wanted to share his generosity with by letting them benefit from his having housing. I have gone back and forth about his having them here. Some days i flare and ask why theyre still here. Other days I see the boon in aving them around. They cook for us, they like to do work here, the girl is a apt pupil who loves to come ask me wuestions and tell me her dreams and her hopes and her problems, and i have to admit that while the house is sometimes a bit fuller than I'm used to, it is also running somehwat better, and as my friend says, he's 'de-schizophrenicizing' the vibe wherever he can. the dishes are getting done, the trash is going out, we are all sleeping on a normal schedule, up days, down nights, the groceries are getting kept stocked so we all eat normal meals, the cats are being cared for and loved, and most interesting of all, we handle one anothers problem moods with balance, humor, compassion and wisdom. She has insecurity attacks. she cries, she doesnt trust, she imagines terrible things and begs the fellow not to gohang out with his dangerous friends. We all talk her through these till she's better and c let him leave her for the dya. The roommate has mood swings. He gets stormy and mad and unhappy. They can turn into tantrums and he gets violent and explosive, not at others, but at himself or at huge distant targets like the government. Or he gets depressed. We all coddle him, tease him, reason with him, inquire about his state of mind, until he lets it go and comes back to rejoin the human race. his friend has alternate personalities. Sometimes he's the calm, rational, helpful, analytical advisor sometimes he;s the silly, mischeivous, lazy, goodtime boy who can't ake anything seriously. and sometimes, he's the dangerous, brooding, angry, tense fight looking for a victim. when number three rears its head, I get strong and authoritarian and step between he and his target and command him to walk away and go think about himself. his friend goes with him and sympatizes and reasons with him, reminds him of all they've seen and done together, maybe gets him to laugh and breaks the spell and the clouds lift. when he comes back, his girl sits him down and amazes him by calling all of his problems for what they are, and shows him in an instant how cleanly thay can be dealt with, and he's grateful to her for being so direct and unafraid and honest. and then theres me. I get these irrational streaks of getting mad for no real reason. I get mad because the dishes are thrown in the sink the wrong way. I get mad because the TV has been on since dawn. I get mad becuase the porch looks like a flophouse and it should be neat. I get mad becuase the 12 pak of sprite i bought for myself is all gone before i could have more than one. i get mad because people arent calling the cats in at sundown. I get mad just because people are there when i get up in the morning. i can be a rageaholic. but each one of them has a different way of answering me when i go into one of these streaks. the roomate reasonably apologizes and tells me why it had to be like that. his friend points out the benefits of why it is like that. and the girl logically counters me with my own flaws in reasoning and how if i wanted something different, i need to say so and show them what i want. and I smile as light dawns and i realize, these kids arent afraid of me, and they all are right, and what the hell, my way wasnt that great when you really look at it after all. so i am learning to ease up and be flexible and enjoy the contributions of having others do things their way. and i am secretly grateful that my roaring temper doesnt scare anybody, becuase all it really is, is a smokescreen for my own insecurities. and these guys have enough of their own confidence in their own views of how to do it, that my dominance gets reasoned out of its control trip, and down to an equal footing, before its had time to really get up a head of steam and do damage i would regret later. so the day is upon me. do i go? do i stay home and let the system take its course? how sick is my son, and will i do him better by letting them keep him in the hospital setting, or by just falling back into the way it was before? emotionally i would like to believe in the dream, to believe he could come home and uerstnad how to be in thgreater milieu. but he crashes that illusion all the time. having him home thruthfully fills me with anguish, at being put through this again. I need a break from him, and he from me, and while being locked in with a bunch of muttering, droolng people who talk like oblivious children may not be a prospect he relishes, maybe that wil spur him to do some real work on himself and his illness, to graduate out of there.and the staff is trained to handle it, where i ain't. the problem with being his caretaker and conservator is that it's a 24-7 job. at least the hospital staff goes home at night and gets days off. when he lived home, i didnt get that. i worried when he was gone, i had the weirdenss when he was home, and wasnt sure if i had to go out for myself. i dont handle his mental disorder very well. i yell, i get furious, i dont have enough patience for his inability to follow what i say or what i mean. i dont make a very good teacher to him. so maybe theres no shame in letting someone else handle it. maybe theres a lesson to be realized in not taking responsibility for something that you discover you can't handle as well as you thought you could. i guess i have to admit defeat or failure and let this one be handled by those who do it for a living, and see how this works instead. my family isnt accusing me of slacking. they say they dont blame me for taking this stance. no one is beating me over the head for what i am doing. in fact, my two closest frineds are trying to encourage me not to bring him home yet. they see with clearer eyes than I do, and they see how i am blinding myself to the truth because it's so discouraging and demoralizing to face. They are firmly against his being released to return to live here yet. And one of them has lived thru this herself for 40 years. I f anyone can tell about it with conviction, its her. she's walked the walk. but i cried. I dont want to go thru this again. the alarm went off to wake me to get up to go, and here i am typing. I'm already up. But it doesnt feel like i want to get up and dress and go downtown. Some part of my fundamental dignity is entrenched, rigid, immovable, saying ' I will not be made a fool of twice. You're not getting me to go down there and put myself thru that again. I act to preserve me, first'. I wonder how much of my changed disposition owes to my having exited the cult? The last time this happened, I wasn't out yet. I was still trying to live out the selfless dictum to be an instrument, to give all in service, to dedicate everything to demonstrating how wonderful Knowledge worked. I broke that programming with the help of all of you, in october of 2000, i think. People say I'm more real since then. They say the sense of pretending, of patronizing goody two shoes that used to surround me, has ended. I guess I am letting myself be selfish when i feel to be, now, and tho still waiting to see what happens when i do, somewhat afraid of consequences, nothing bad happens of it. Here's another interesting thing I notice: I know in myself that i 'could' reach deep down into my depths and pull up some kind of power to be a hero and totally bowl enveryone over with the strength i could display and wield, here. but ya know what? I just dont wanna. I dont feel like it. I'm tired. I've done plenty of that. Paid my dues. Get someone else, if you want one. Not me. I'm outta that business. and i think by you guys letting write this here, you've helped me come to peace with my question today. thank you for letting me do this here. i had to cme tell you, because you're my community. we have continuity. you are the people who go back thru time with me, who i dont have to explain my life to, because you all lived it. you understand the weird notions that hamper my thinking straight, in just having it be allright to be me. the cult thinking is still hanging me up and impairing my being able to know what i really am, and just trying to express this has helped me see into myself this morning. stay tuned for future insights, as i reach them. who ever thought being yourself would be so confusing? yours, janet

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Bolly To: janet Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 03:26:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet I read your post and sympathise with your situation, I don't know if you are a lone parent but it reads that way. I have brought my children up alone and am aware that maintaining a proper perspective on things is really difficult. About your sons college courses, I think we all panic when our potential rocket scientist lingers in the ballet class too long. By which I mean that we tend to want them to do what we are comfortable seeing them engaged in. My youngest has a very definite ambition, so like the attentive parent I take myself to be I marked out a route map towards its realisation and spoon fed her the directions. She picked up my efforts threw them over her shoulder into the tip and went her own sweet way. We thimk having gone through life and found the potholes we can direct our offspring to avoid them. We can't, and some times it is very painfull to see them stumble and fall. Equally it is hugely enjoyable to see them acheive in an area we never knew they were aware of. The line between guidance and control is easily blurred, all parents do it. You need some distance between yourself and Stepan I hope things work out well for both of you. Pick up some of your own interests and maybe find some more uplifting housemates. Love and best wishes Bolly

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: bill To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:25:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HI JANET, Dont forget, the local library has internet for use in coming here. Sounds like you should send this to your folks and your ex. It is honest and it will explain why you are turning him over to the state folks. There are a lot of very good state workers and I trust that your son will get the good one. I get the impression from your post that you are making the correct decision and I hope you will be trusting in your sense of what to do. The meds and therapy may be having a long term effect and this could be a good turn in the road. He may need a very different enviroment to help jolt the change and You may be on the verge of a good era for him. Keep us informed ! Love from Connecticut !

Subject: One question, Janet From: Jerry To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:20:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does you son read this site?

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Anthony To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Janet, I've only posted here once before, but I want you to know I feel very greatly with you. Without going into your personal details, a friend of mine locally had enormous problems with her son for similar reasons to yours. They recently found a medication which has sorted him out extremely well. Maybe you will find this with Stepan. I hope so! I don't know if this is relevant at this moment, but it has truly made a great difference. Love, Anthony

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:35:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Janet, I am in no position to give parental advice, not ever being a parent. How ever you look at this situation it doesn't come out perfectly. You son has been a source of great pain and you've made much effort to take care of him. I can't imagine that feeling, regardless of his age. The connection between mother and child never breaks. That said, you have to take care of yourself first. If you don't feel well for whatever reasons, he won't feel well. I think that if you do contact your U.S. Rep. or Senators they could be of possible help (besides legislation). They have a lot of power and gateways into any system which they want to poke their noses into. Give it a try, to assure yourself that whoever has conservatorship is held responsible. You'd be surprised what these power brokers can do. When I applied for SSD several years ago, I was a mess. I called my Senator Pat Leahy and his office continuously followed up with the SSA on my behalf. Many of my acquaintances couldn't believe that I got approval on the first round. And Pat Leahy is a very busy Senator--these folks have staff whose purpose is to assist their constituency with just these types of situations and problems. 'The System.' Other than that, I don't judge anything you've done because it's your life. I only wish you health and peace about this. Letting go is very difficult. Holding on can exacerbate your son's problem as well as be more crazy making for you. Letting go is grief-making. Talk about a rock and a hard place. That Step is so impaired by his mental illness adds so much to your life story and problems. And please try to forgive yourself for any mistakes you have made (in your own estimation). Letting go might be what's needed most for you right now. Celebrate Independence Day for yourself. Give yourself a son-free day. Just one day. And give yourself some comfort...I know you know how to do that. I'm glad you posted this because of the recent RE blow-up, your rejection from joining RE, bring it here. Not all of us are open books with our life situations, but this is a BB for discussing things that are going on in our lifes. You've got courage, Janet! With love and concern, Cynthia

Subject: I endorse Cynthia's post 100% [nt] From: Carlos - To Janet - To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:35:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 22:37:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only live 40 or 50 miles South of you. I don't know how I could be of help to you; I suspect I probably couldn't do anything other than be 1 more person you could call if your head got twisted. But I can't even do that unless we work out someway I can give you my eMail address and/or phone #. I have an old eMail address for PatC. And I trust him not to give my number/eMail URL to anyone without my permission. Do you have a way to reach him? Or Katie and Brian? who I also have an eMail address of? There pretty much aren't any other exes whom I trust that would be likely to be willing to be middlemen whose eMail URLs I have. And you and I are both too likely, IMO, to be targets of the bongos for me to be comfortable just posting my eMail URL or phone. My heart ached in sympathy for you after just a couple of paragraphs. I don't have a lot of faith in the power of prayer to achieve anything except self programming; any God powerful enough to be useful to ask for a boon seems, to me, to most likely be beyond being able to be influenced by bargaining. But asking for mercy and compassion for you, and guidance, may not be bargaining. And it can't hurt. So I'll beg for a boon, on your behalf. Be gentle to yourself as you go thru this. Best wishes, always.

Subject: Hey Carlos and Janet... From: gerry To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:02:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you were having this conversation on Forum Eight, you could send each other private messages only you two could read! F8 www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Re: Hey Carlos and Janet... From: Carlos - To Gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 20:41:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That is a great feature, and I thank you for pointing it out!

Subject: use my email i posted. From: janet To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 23:16:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no biggie there. write to me at that email adress.

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: PatW To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:42:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow...we're living worlds apart - sort of - but I empathise with you over what you must be going through with your son. I have good friends who have mental problems and some in the family too. It's all too common. Thanks for your frank outpouring. I don't really know what to say other than I read through your entire communique and it had quite an impact. Good luck with it all...try sneaking some of the 12 pack into a private corner! (reminds me of the ashram!) and give the cats a long-distance cuddle from me.

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Richard To: PatW Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 21:15:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All I can say is I hope that resolution comes for you, Step and everyone concerned. Love, Richard

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: A mom To: Richard Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 22:11:45 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Janet I could feel the confusion. You probably are at the end of your day but I wanted to share what stood out for me. Whatever the situation, a 24 year old will not cope very well if you regard him and his rent money as the key factor in whether you keep your home or not. That is enough pressure to freak a normal 24 year old right out. I hope you keep your house if thats what you want via borders or whoever, but that your son is released from that responsiblity in your head. The stress you feel about that/cats ect must be unbearable to him but as an adult he should never be that infused into your livelyhood. How can he ever become /feel self sufficient if there is that dependency by you on him?' Hope this doesnt freak you right out.

Subject: dependency From: janet To: A mom Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 05:13:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i am deeply aware of your point. this situation occurred in a time of high crisis four years back when he was thrown out of college at his first psychotic break, and after a hopitalization, his dad tried to handle him on the east coast while supporting himself freelance and taking care of his aging parents at the same time. it was too distrssing for all of them, and they flew him out to me around thankdgiving. i had not raised him, had not lived with him since he was 3. my father had taken custody of him back then and kept me away all those years. he was 19 when he got off the plane here. me, I had lost my apt of 4 years thanks to shyster landlords who tried to get away with substandard building maintenance and had gotten cuaght and sued by the city attorney to bring the place up to code and failed. they lost the building in court, a new owner bought it, and illegally evicted all the tenants in order to raise the rents. so i had been stuck sleeping on my boyfriend's floor for 6 months, desperate for a way to open up for me to get another place. when his dad put him on the plane to me, it created high crisis. he was thrilled to be reunited with me, and i, him, and he had some money saved-about 1600 dollars--that he wanted put toward us getting a place together. the boyfriends mother was coming for christmas in 3 weeks, so we had to be out of there and in our own place in that short time. and the city was having torrential rains. in the face of all this, we set out to get ourselves a place together, and succeeded by a stroke of fortune and grit willingness to take over a vacancy that was a post-crackhouse disaster. the previous tenants had locked the owner out for 4 years and had filled the place with every kind of junk imaginable. they had never turned on the utilities. they had lived with cold water, no lights and no gas. the place was littered with dirty needles, mountains of clothes, broken appliances, crammed broken furniture, etc. the US marshals had arrested them on thanksgiving and the owner hadnt had the nerve to go back in and look since then. he didnt want to show it to us, but we HAD to have a place to live or it was the rains and the streets. so we insisted he show us how bad it was, and that we would get some friends to come down and help us throw the trash out and empty it and paint it so we could occupy it. he reallly coulnt oppose our determination, so he turned on the utilities at his own expense for us and gave us whatever we needed to do what we said we would. he gave us a lower rent than the market was asking, because of the conditions we were accepting. what we pay is unheard of for the beach. and we didnt know then that all the land around the house was his as well. it was divided up with fences, which he later knocked down and surrounded with just one perimeter one that took in the whole property. i knew when my son joined me that i was going to get him on disability and SSI. I know the drill from getting on it myself, and getting several other people on it over the years. i understand what it requires. so I knew from the beginning that this was how living here was going to work, and i explained it to him and he understood as well. we inaugurated the household with that in mind, everything would be 50 50, so that he would understand that i was not some monolithic Bank of Mommy he could always look to, and that he was as valid a part of our having this as I was. i feel an agonizing sense of impossibility in that at the same time i wanted him to feel equally important, it also put me in a position of awful vulnerability. At my income, I am not even able to have a sence of self sufficiency. i wish i had it. then i would not worry so about what will happen to him. but the economy is such, that i can afford a place for me alone, without room for him, or we can afford a place that will hold us both, but i cant hold it alone if he goes. the market rates have it down to a science by now, calculated down to exactly how much to charge per square foot and per person. you either overpay or overcrowd to have it any other way. i see your point about how he wants to be self sufficient. i would like to be, too. but that is how we got into this particular situation. it was the only way we could survive the crisis we found ourselves in when the college kicked him out in 97 and the family couldnt handle him. it got us thru. but the big question is, now what. what's the next step after this chapter? for me? for him?

Subject: Re: (OT) some news on my son From: Vicki To: A mom Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:33:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janet, I truly hope things go well for your son. You've put a lot of effort into his health. I really don't know much about mental health conditions other than anxiety disorder, but it must be such an all consuming thing. I watched the movie 'Beautiful Mind'. Maybe it's semi accurate with the typical Hollywood twist. Have you tried your state legislature representative? It sounds like conservatorship needs revamped and legislation rewritten. If you chose to go the route of having someone else do it, your son at least has someone to watch over the conservator they assign. Maybe this is the time in your life not only for your son, but also yourself to have a fresh beginning. Someone with your IQ shouldn't have to go through life stressing about financial security. Now that you don't have to put your energies into Maharaji and EV, you can put them into yourself. I'm sure it would involve some big effort, but in a couple of years you could be way better off. There's a great paperbook called 'How to talk so your kids will listen, and listen so your kids will talk.' It's great for repatterning verbally interacting with kids. Doesn't matter how young or how old. It can also help you see how you should have been talked to as well. If you have rage issues, chances are they are a product of your own childhood. But that's probably not news to you! Best of luck Janet, to you and your son.

Subject: Maharaji Phrases to Remember... From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:37:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I just remembered a long time ago, early 70s I think, when Maharaji was talking about propagation. He said that 1 + 1 equals 11, not 2. Anyone remember when he said that? Obviously talking about how many people would come to k if we told one person, and another, and another told..... Math challenged Maharaji.

Subject: Re: Maharaji Phrases to Remember... From: Vicki To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:39:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He said that so many times. Over and over and over through the years. Propagation equals premies being little salesmen/women so he stays off the hook legally .

Subject: i figured it meant: From: janet To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 06:08:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when one person tells you what they think, it only has the force of their individual way of interpreting the world. opinions are like assholes, everyobody has one, kind of thing. one person's beleif doesnt count for much. but if two people come down the street, both trumpeting the same exact assertions, because theyre both in the same cult, there is a power in that because no two people everyagree on anything exactly the same in life. so it makes them seem bigger--they equal 11--to others who never see that kind of total reinforcement of what the other has to say. well of course it seems bigger. what they are really bringing word of is soemthing huge--the cult. something that feeds off the energy of thousands of members who are all being told to erase their egos and do everything for the master. of course theres going to be a sense of something much vaster talking than just humble little them! there is! they have made the cult greater than themselves and come acting as its mouthpiece. in that case, one and one do make eleven. together, going out advertising for joiners, they speak for more than just one or the other or the two of them. but you know, that math works to the opposite, too: if one person knows right from wrong, and does a worng, its on their head alone. if another does likewise, its on their head alone. but if they eachknow right from wrong, and they agree to collude in the wrong, their sin is multiplied accordingly, because neither one persuaded the other to desist and honor the right. so in that case, 1 and 1 also make 11. so if they each did it because a third, the leader, asked them to, doesnt that bump it up to 111? and for every additional person who drops their conscience and runs to take part in the wrongdoing, doesnt that bump the impact up by another order of magnitude? another individual corrupting themselves voluntarily, when they knew right from wrong? that math cuts both ways.

Subject: A Glastonbury Romance.. From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:23:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was going to put this on the Glastonbury thread, but it's vanished. When thinking only of the dope and the God realisation of those times, please spare a thought for those other touching little personal stories... Glastonbury Fayre was in 1971. The festival in 1970 was actually at Shepton Mallet, some miles from Glastonbury. I travelled down there with a bunch of profiteers from Portobello Road, London. I was on a course to teach English to foreigners, and was supporting myself selling hot dogs and helium-filled balloons with these rascals at weekends at all the fairs. The honcho was an ex-boxer, Eric. His wife was a peroxide blonde who wore skin-tight white leather flairs. We travelled to Shepton Mallet in a small convoy of vans. When we arrived, We all leapt out, Eric handed myself and a couple of others fake rosettes with Usher on, and we proceeded to direct the traffic wherever we wanted, while the rest of the gang off-loaded hot-dog barrows and raced to set them up at the prime locations before the rivals arrived. He then instructed us to sell frankfurters for 2/- and hamburgers for 2/6. Even I thought that a bit outrageous, so I gradually lowered the price to what I thought sustainable. Many starving freaks received dogs at knock-down prices. My karma was rewarded in the form of a pretty nurse from Oswestry who picked me up. We went to the pub that night (on the takings), and a penniless guy I bought a pint gave me a meaningful gaze and a good lump of dope. The nurse and I smoked it, fondling each other to the music of Ten Years After or Traffic. As the night drew in it got really cold, so the final sex was postponed. She went back to her tiny tent (shared with a friend), I to the van, among the skinheads. I looked for her the next day where we had arranged to meet, but she failed to show. Crestfallen, I returned to the gang. Eric looked at me sideways and grunted: ‘Did you fuck ‘er?’ I admitted I hadn’t. ‘You’ll not see ‘er again, then.’ Everyone agreed. I toured the site for quite a while, unwilling to accept the gross philosophy of life of the racketeers. But I never saw her again.. If she’s reading this, can she please send the full money for the hamburger I gave her.

Subject: Ah, lovely! From: Romancingthe Doc To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 01:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he he, yes, absolutely correct. Shepton Mallett - my mother had a good friend down there and I was shipped out of London to her place in mid 1970 in a last ditch attempt to get me away from all those 'horrible hippie types ' in London' that she loathed. Never mind they were from schools like Chaterhouse, Wellington and Rugby :) So I stayed near the site and was longing for the next festival which I hoped would be there but I believe the locals put up enough resistance so it moved to the spot near the Tor. i also fell for a lovely girl at Glastonbury but didn't bed her, oh no, I was completely lost in a swoon over the deep and cosmic significance of our union. In fact I was so befuddled with notions of the greatest ever romance that I failed to notice that she wanted to bonk. I felt it could wait - she thought otherwise. Another broken dream. Doc - who gave up romance 30 years later when all that was left of his heart was a small pile of finely shredded wheatmeal. If you're reading this Mo, thanks for coming to Blandford later on and living with me, I still adore you - sob

Subject: Re: Ah, lovely! From: Anthony To: Romancingthe Doc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:15:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ, you're even more pussy-struck than I am, which is saying a lot! Incidentally, are you the same Doc as David Roupell over on Symposium? Confused Romantic

Subject: I own one From: Lurker To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Anth & crew. I own one and don't appreciate your choice of words. It's not just guys visiting the forum, you know.

Subject: To Lurker From: The Falcon To: Lurker Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:49:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Good for you! I am not in the least sexist but have been (and still am) a devotee of the Yoni-the gateway to the infinite sun! Please forgive me (but some things will never change) Love The Falcon (who refuses to be demonised by the politically correct)

Subject: Re: Ah, lovely! From: RomanceDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:24:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes I am. Guilty as charged :( Doc - who wan't so much pussy-struck but more deluded and fooled by the Fairy Princess Syndrome in which the pussy gets conspicuously little attention, much to the annoyance of the owner! ;)

Subject: Question, Doc From: Anthony To: RomanceDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:25:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yeah, the Fairy Princess Syndrome, I know it well. Change it to the Stainless Gopi Syndrome, and I've known that too. So If you're David Roupell, who a couple of weeks ago was painted as the wicked Svengali type premie villain, how come you're fixing a reunion with old mates from the WPC, who're now exes? Or have I got something wrong? Does ex-membership of a paramilitary spiritual corps transcend all other considerations? :)

Subject: the naked Emperor syndrome From: villainDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:15:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's no secret Anthiny, that there are people here who are seething with hate and resentment. Unfortunately they do not have pleasant, rewarding relationship or fulfilling lives and this is cleasrly evidenced by their attacks on people like me - out of the blue - in a thread that has nothing to do with them. In other words - they scour the forums LOOKING for people to shit all over. This is why M Blathers was deemed a geniune cyberstalker and no, it wasn't a joke, raher an expose. My advice to you is to deal with me as you find me (ie:by engaging me face to face as you are) and have a look at some of my posts on LG and Symp. Within a week or so you'll get a pretty good idea of where I'm coming from. And from that be able to glean where I am at. ;) What the haters so quickly forget (in their rush to demonise people) is that.... where we are coming from NOW is all that counts ;(

Subject: Anthony, please clarify From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 06:22:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I'll take another look at those reminiscing posts.Is this David Roupel super premie? At the moment I only have limited timed internet access, but am trying to recall was there not a post or three when I had misgivings about the responses. Yours Bolly, sorry if I have encouraged this, nostalgia always gets me.

Subject: Re: Anthony, please clarify From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Bolly, Doc appears in the various posts below reminiscing about the WPC. I thought from your thread Excite DocReunion you were having some reunion, which seemed odd in that a) he lives in Australia, I think and b) he's an ultra-premie who used to be much maligned on F7. So, I'm confused. He seems to have a human enough side, from the present thread, however. I see you've scored, on your Maturing Gracefully thread. Maybe it's the man of your dreams...

Subject: David Roupel...... From: The Falcon To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 09:16:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is questioning although there is no way that he will cop to it yet. There is absolutely no other reason psychologically why he continues to post here. Inexplicable (to me).This is not my wishful thinking, I really don't care what people choose to do with their lives (or genitalia or money etc. etc.) He has been, to date, gracious to me personally and I do take people as I find them (even in cyberspace)although Cerise has some answering to do????!!! In time all these 'ultra-premies'will awake from the dream because the dream is full of holes. In time, in time! Let us have the compassion to be there for them when the dream ends. This is not a jest!! Actually, in my life-long quest not to be demonised by anything politically correct, let me say I do think that (with the exception of Cerise who I have heard looks ravishing in black stockings -come on, friends, we have all got sub-persnalities, this is David's) DR could be quite fun to hang out with if, and it is a big if, he could drop the guru-bollocks for an evening. Seriously, a weekend with my lot would certainly be the initiation he is really looking for, file the guru, bring the credit card! This is (half) a jest! all the best-no animosity whatsoever. The Falcon (bringing home the rabbits in red g-strings (an in-joke!), voles, mice and any other small creature available)

Subject: Good Onya Falcon :) From: OrnithologistDoc To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:29:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I greatly appreciate your kind and true words. Long may you fly high in the sky, enjoy the view and swoop down to pick up whatever tasty morsels your sharp eyes alight on. :) Doc - who totally respects posters who treat others face to face post by post.

Subject: Re: David Roupel...... From: Anthony To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 15:43:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, not having been around when all the bad stuff was happening, I think he sounds a nice guy in many ways, too. If you read the posts below when he's reminiscing about his WPC days, he says in one something like: Yes, we were in a cult, weren't we? Suggesting he thinks DLM/EV were a cult, but the present scene isn't. I'd like to know how he thinks things have changed, and the answer to the most important question: what are people told about Maharaji himself now: Is he supposed to be only some benevolent teacher, or are they taught to believe he is a lot,lot more?

Subject: Anthony From: debaterDoc To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:44:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony, I am interested in pursuing some of your questions re 'how things are different' and how M is spoken about etc. I suggest you post a message on the Life's Great forum where we can discuss these things in a place that does not have lurking stonefish like Miss Blatherer who can't keep her dark thoughts to herself. hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum cheers, ContemplativeDoc

Subject: Roupell and deception - exercise caution From: Marianne To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 19:18:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anthony: Sure Roupell sounds like a decent enough guy. He's been at least ten different people on this forum. His first foray here was as a teenage girl, child of devout premies, named Cerise. Cerise laughed about the extreme sexual abuse perpetrated upon premie children by Mahatma Jagdeo, and said 'she' did not care if one of the sex abuse victims had been raped by a herd of elephants. Roupell has applauded cyber attacks on ex-premies, and has repeatedly threatened to disrupt this forum. He's not worthy of anyone's trust here, as his behaviour has shown. His recent nice guy persona is just another one of his many changing facades, none of which is genuine. Buyer beware. Marianne

Subject: You are one sad case Blathers From: ContemptuousDoc To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 22:52:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll wager that whenever you look up into the night sky you only see the Dark Side Of The Moon. Right? Ah, it's lonely at the top ain't it? Breath woman, breathe. ...and remember, it's people like you who gave this place it's well earned disgusting reputation. But now that it is a much improved cyberspace station, perhaps it's time people like youself desisted from posting? Oh yea and...you're a lawyer right? Well in your post you have stated untruths about me (as cerise) and I can prove it . Be careful Ms B, be very careful.

Subject: Roupell's false faces again From: Marianne To: ContemptuousDoc Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:05:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for showing your true colors once again, for those who were starting to have a soft spot for one of your false faces. I'll rely on the face to face relationships I have with people on this forum, and assistance I have provided in the real world, against you any day, Roupell. I have a real world track record. You are just a cult ghost howling in the wind. Marianne

Subject: Re: Roupell's false faces again From: Bolly To: Marianne Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 04:08:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marrianne Falcon and Anthony Thank you, I did feel a little bit uneasy about some of this guys posts and doubt that I would willingly have met him alone in daylight even. Thanks for pulling out his true identity. I use a borrowed machine and probably don't look as closely as I should at things. Love Bolly ps exactly who have I pledged my troth with and if I don't follow through do I get to keep the toaster and the fishknives? Love Bolly

Subject: Hey guys, check this little flower fairy out ;) From: MilesaboveDoc To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 21:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ah the blinding new highs they're reaching these days =) This is Ms innocent little 'Dolly' bird. 'I did feel a little bit uneasy about some of this guys posts and doubt that I would willingly have met him alone in daylight even.' Oooh, God No...he could even have an Elephant with him! Yes, that nasty Doc's posts were REALLY DARK and DANGEROUS weren't they? I could almost feel it in my bones! That Glastonbury conversation reeely scared me lots and lots!! OOh, he's such a monster!! Oh gosh if it wasn't for you Marrianne, you beautiful and intelligent woman, joining into that conversation so unexpectedly with your truth and love, hell, I could have been sucked in by this abusive decadent man!! Have you seen what he's saying on the other forum? Gosh, he's even pretending to be happy!!! HA HA HA HA You know I can't even decide for myself who to talk to and who to trust! Golly Marrianne, where would I be without your loving guidence you virtuous man dazzling icon of justice! Please keep leading me away from my deep held and often overwhelming thoughts about being a pathetic failure of a human being. Is there anyone else who might pervert me with their posts? Please Marrianne, please keep me abreast of all the nasty twisted posters and always close to your ample bosom...for ever and ever and ever - I surrender all critical thought to your Due Process ....err....um..... ...oh and...I'm looking for love too, so if a nice eligible man comes to this forum (I know they often do) please let me know!! I hope you'll coach me through the courting process, tee hee :)

Subject: Bolly's Secret Admirer From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 10:04:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Bolly, Personally, I thought he was OK in the posts below and here. I note Marianne's caution (thanks!), but, being new, am maybe prepared to cut him some slack, and engage in a thread with him next week on Symposium. Your admirer is that guy Sigmund Freud on your thread Maturing Gracefully. As you seem a romantic, probably like all contributors to this present thread, why not, if you fancy, shoot him a couple of selective personal details and vague details on which area of the country you inhabit? If you're not further impressed, you can quite easily tell him pleasantly to go forth and etc. Match-broker Anthony (no fee)

Subject: Well Anthony, there you have it From: Marianne To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 21:54:37 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I explained to you that this guy has another side and he's showed it to you. Since you are new, I figured you were entitled to a warning about how he really can be. It's up to you if you want to engage him and I have no opinion one way or another if you do. All I intended to do was give you some information so you could make an informed decision. If it's credibility you're seeking, many people who post here have met me in person and know me. I've been posting here for 3 years. You can easily find what I've said and make your own decision about who I am. And you can talk to folks in the states and in Europe who are now my personal friends and who can vouch for me. You can also read my journey. I wish you well as you navigate the waters here. Marianne

Subject: Nothing FALSE about this Blatherer From: ActionDoc To: Marianne Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 23:58:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes indeed, you certainly do have a track record Ms Blathers, a pretty ugly one, well docmented thanks to people with more skill than I possess to unearth the likes of you. Of couse you see me standing up to you as 'revealing my true nature'. You have to! Well, let's just remember who joined this perfecly pleasant thread with podgy fists flailing all over the place. Good, That's all the readers need to know. Now listen here charmer....and there ain't nothing false about this...I can and will send a deposition to your superiors if you continue to cyberstalk me on these boads with lies, inuendo and false accusations. Capeesh? Doc - who feels sorry for all the 'humble, soft and gentle' premies who would have fallen victim to this creature's venom over the years.

Subject: Wow, Doc, you've shot yourself right in the foot [nt] From: Livia To: ActionDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 11:22:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: This is not acceptable behavior, 'doc' From: gerry To: ActionDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 10:18:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So I'm deleting your ugly threatening posts wherein you slur some fine folks esp Marianne whom I consider a friend and an asset to this Forum. ed. On second thought, I'll leave these posts up so people can see for themselves what a fine "character" you are, doc.

Subject: Delete what you like Mr FA From: TerrifieDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 20:54:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The relevant posts are now in the place they are the most useful. And your 'fine folk' Marrianne Blathers is in a deal of trouble re her credibility in the real world and her right to ascertain that her claim to genuine ethical status, as per her vows, can be established. This is going to be mighty funny to watch considering the disgusting, slanderous and false accusations she has made on this very forum. Care to address those salient points Mr Lyng? No, I thought not. It really is too bad when people actually stand up to you cyber thugs isn't it? You really should look after your flock a little better Lying and DELETE posts from ugly trolls quickly so that we don't act on them in the REAL world. Look what's happened to the ex-machine, it's in tatters for that very reason. ;( Ms Blathers. You can post breezy messages all you like to try and appear undaunted in your darkness, but your day will come. Yes...Let's talk 'Fairness' WE WILL INDEED. WE WILL INDEED

Subject: It's tough when you first stop believing, Dave From: gerry To: TerrifieDoc Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 09:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But don't shoot us, we are only the messengers...

Subject: Re: This is predictable behavior, 'doc' From: Marshall To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 11:06:03 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Gery, Thanks for leaving Roupell's rancid posts. I was glad to see them, to get the whole story so to speak. No reasonable person would be unable to see who is righteous and who isn't here. The more 'doc' says, the worse he appears. Talk about digging your own grave.

Subject: Shooting fish in barrels From: PatD To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 16:49:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...is Mr.Roupell's game. He's good at it too.

Subject: RI met her in Christmas '71 From: Sir Dave To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:37:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She came into our house in Notting Hill (London) and we all got stoned. Her and I got on like a house on fire and went to bed together and promptly fell asleep in each other's arms, being too stoned to do anything else. I remember her kissing me (goodbye) in the morning as I lay half asleep in the bed. Eventually I woke up and she'd gone - never to return again. Shit, was I sore about that. I fell in love for a night and then she disappeared like a dream. I bet she's the same girl. How many hearts did she break?

Subject: Here today, gone to California From: Richard To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:28:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Very touching, Anth. Her failure to show up for her appointment with destiny may have driven you headlong into the waiting arms of SatGuru. I had a brief affair with a woman in 1972. I had received K and that added to my esoteric mystique, I suppose. She received K, we lived together a short while and then off she went to 'visit an uncle' in San Francisco. Next thing I hear, she wants her stuff sent out to the coast. I debated endlessly and it all came down to either showing up on her doorstep with heart bleeding or go to India for Hans Jayanti. I threw the I-Ching and got Preponderance of the Great / It furthers one to cross the water to see the great man. I went to India and the rest is history. Richard, wondering what might have been and another round for Anth

Subject: To Anthony re Glastonbury thread From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 03:13:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, I had problems with too quickly vanishing threads until some kind person explained that if you click on 'View All' at the top or bottom of the page, loads more posts appear, including the ones that seem to have dropped off the bottom of the page; 900 in all, rather than the 100 or so which appear otherwise. It takes a while to load them all up, depending on the speed of your computer - with my rather cranky machine it takes up to a minute, sometimes less. Messages are usually visible for two weeks or so. Happy downloading! Livia

Subject: Re: To Anthony, PS From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 03:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually it's 700 posts, and today you can read them as far back as June 18th. Livia

Subject: Thanks, Livia! From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 05:12:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I saw your posts, I thought someone was going to scorch me for disgusting chauvinist attitudes in my little tale. The follow-up to the situation was that, having collected my pay for work at Glas. I hitched to Oswestry, in search of the beautiful nurse. I found the only hospital there, and said Anthony from Glastonbury was looking for Rachel. She said she'd never heard of me and they told me to get lost. This is nothing to do with Knowledge, but I like to recall what a romantic young soul I was.

Subject: Re: A Glastonbury Romance.. From: too bad To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:33:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for you, I know the gal, she had an operation and is now a guy!!!

Subject: My prayer is answered. From: Anthony To: too bad Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:43:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I eventually faced up to my real nature some years back, accepted the snip, and became a woman. Is it still too late for this year's Festival. He'll be waiting, I know, by that old rusty portaloo.

Subject: Master's Burdern -- Pain of Being Rich From: Maharaji To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:40:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji speaking at Long Beach 1995 You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.

Subject: Poor Rich Maharaji... From: Cynthia To: Maharaji Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:45:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know a lot of rich people. Very rich. Some are kind, some are like you Maharaji, a real asshole. Tell ya what...I can't make good use of some of your wealth. Send a few million my way and we'll see who's the humanitarian and who's the fraud.

Subject: Re: Master's Burdern -- Pain of Being Rich From: Scott T. To: Maharaji Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 10:07:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. Let me guess. You've got more money than can be justified by your contribution to society? Yeah, you've a tough row to hoe, alright. Glad it's not me. --Scott (in sympathy)

Subject: This is why you are history(NT) From: The Falcon To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:25:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Hell Maharaji From: Jethro To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:34:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Long time no speak. I fully understand the pain you are going through as one of the rich misunderstood. Remember the 'Rejoice' programs when you, yourself,personally, re-gave all of us the Holy techniques of Knowledge. Remember the programs in Birmingham, where some people just couldn't understand why you needed a private suite just so you could go out for a smoke. Some people even stupidly suggested that the money used to hire that suite could have at least been used to pay for poor premies who couldn't afford to come. You know the ones on family support, living in poverty who send you part of their benefit. These people who criticised you did not understand how you are taking the world's suffering by smoking. Oh if only the world understood who you are(sigh). I thinkyou shoul'd republish the PeaceBomb satsang and once again where your crown. What's that you say?....there was no such thing.

Subject: It's not what you think.... From: PatD To: Maharaji Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:17:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....successful private investors like our erstwhile farseeing Lordy might well have invested in Enron,Worldcom & Uncle Tom Cobbledy & all. Lets hope so. My guess,trying to piece together the ghastly component parts of his nouveaux riche ideas of perfection(you ever read the post from the woman who picked all the pine needles out of his driveway),is that he's overextended in hi tech but has a baseline in cornflakes. I'd like to see him pulling a sled in Alaska,but that's just me.

Subject: Re: has a baseline in cornflakes. From: AV To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:45:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: which reminds me.....some dumb ass spent DAYS trying to do a king size jigsaw of a chicken, until it was pointed out he'd actually bought a giant box of cornflakes... AV, who snaps, crackles and occaisionally pops

Subject: Cheerios are donut seeds :) From: New-Age Redneck To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 14:09:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: take my word for it and plant a few....

Subject: Dozens of old press articles From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 08:58:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi you all, I’ve just received an interesting (snail)mail today, sent by some fellow-ex. 1/ A copy of a booklet called ‘Report of the World Peace Tour of Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj’ published in India (end 71 or early 72). This booklet is a compilation of press reports on M’s programs etc in 1971, arrival at Heathrow airport (Daily Mirror), programs in UK (Express & News and several others), articles of the US press, reproductions of leaflets and posters used during that campaign (The famous ‘The Mystery of the Word’), satsangs of Mahatma Param Saphalanand, interview of Arthur Brigham, dozens of US and Canadian articles, pictures of premies at that time (James Vanerne and Sandy Collier amongst others). Comments on the tour in Hindi, and comments and letters from western disciples (with translation in Hindi) from Venetia, Saphalanand, Maurice, Jeffrey, Anne, Sue, several letters from Dhiraj Bai (Joan) and Sue (Ratcliffe). 2/ A compilation of genuine press cuttings of the early 70s. Dozens of them, sticked on a big ‘scrap book’. Articles on the programs in London 71, pictures of ‘Milky’ Cole and other premies (Glen Whittaker), leaflets, various reports on the Charity Commission investigating the DLM’s finances (UK), one intersting article on the jewels smuggling into India (apparently involving Joan Apter carrying the ‘divine bank’ of an estimated value between £30.000 and £60.000). The whole thing looks very bizarre. Do you want some of it reproduced on EPO ?

Subject: sure do.... From: The Falcon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and I have much more to come-watch this space! J-M I will e-mail you privately when I have (soon) accessed an amazing archive of the requisite bullshit!

Subject: It's all bizarre From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:26:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you can be bothered,I'll read it.

Subject: Re: Dozens of old press articles From: AV To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:02:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: all of it,I'd say! sounds priceless! esp 1.

Subject: Re: Dozens of old press articles From: Vicki To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:58:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, please.

Subject: Yes, Please... From: Cynthia To: Vicki Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 11:27:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like it would be a great source for EPO readers.

Subject: Re: Yes, Please... From: anon To: Cynthia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:20:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is EPO please

Subject: A read for every aspirant From: Jethro To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:59:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Amongst other things it contains all the history of Maharaji that he tried to wipe out by having books and videos burnt. Here's the URL http://www.ex-premie.org/ EPO www.ex-premie.org/

Subject: It's a club From: EPO expert To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 21:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: for those poor unfortunates who have discovered, to their bitter disappointment, the... End of Positive Orgasms ;)

Subject: Re: Yes, Please... From: PatD To: anon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:28:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.ex-premie.org is EPO.

Subject: Where's Jim? From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I think Jim is finally free of M [nt] From: Dep To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:33:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: You haven't heard, Livia? From: Richard To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 17:06:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You must have missed the thread where we discussed this. Jim, as it turns out, was just a creation of GMJ to test the devotees. We were told to never leave room for doubts in our minds so, in his ultimate wisdom and compassion, GMJ manifested himself in the form of the Ultimate Doubt Maker - Jim. Jim has dutifully fulfilled his service as Doubtmaker and tested the premies. Some have listened to Jim and wandered from the MOM (Message of Maharaji). These we call Ex-Premies or Ex's for brevity. The other more focused and dedicated premies have ignored Jim's siren call to the rocks and now happily thrive over at Life Is Great. These are the true devotees of the Living Master and forever shall reap their just desserts. Amaroo beckons and the remaining students can rest assured they have passed the test and will no longer be tempted by the doubting Jim's of the world. Sounds appealing so I'm back on the fence. You never know, he could be the One after all. Anyone got Bazza's email address? I hope that clears things up for you. :) Richard

Subject: Straightforward question, convoluted answer From: Tonete To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 14:35:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So where is Jim and Pat C.? I have been away on vacation for awhile. Have yet to 'catch up' as they say. Last I heard or read, there was quite a ruckus regarding Life's (fucking) Great, and Forum 7. So what's up folks? Anyone want to give it straight? Meaning not in riddles or heiroglythics? Sorry about the spelling. Tonette

Subject: Straightforward answer From: Richard To: Tonete Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:55:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After the brouhaha about Jim's lurking on Recent Exes with Moley's help (see Symposium for much info on this), he has pulled back from F7 for awhile. PatC has done the same and resigned as FA of F7. Everyone has stated their reasons on Symposium. Many others have posted their opinions on the RE-gate topic. Sorry you don't see humor in my post. I thought I was being clever but, as you weren't around for the aforementioned meltdown, it made no sense to you. I assumed Livia was aware of the situation and was just asking about Jim so I chose to make light of it. No one else thought it was funny either so I'll need to be more discerning when it comes to joking around. As I said, this was discussed to extreme lengths over on Symposium which is where it was taken to free up F7 for it's stated purpose. For Symposium, see link at the top of the page. There are several threads where this was discussed in the View All list. Richard, just the facts

Subject: Round pegs in square holes. From: Scott T. To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 22:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rich: Thanks. I lit out for southern Virginia on my bike for a week, so missed the finale. Anyway, things pretty nasty on Symp with DR pretty much having his way, so I may just join Jim in obscurity. Leave the faction free to form it's own ideosyncratic worldview without my anoying input. I tried wearing squarepants just to fit in, but they chafed. --Scott

Subject: Re: Straightforward answer From: Premie Forever To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 18:38:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry you don't see humor in my post. Funny!? You think it's funny!!?? Jim's the goddamn antichrist... and you think that's FUNNY!!!???? Sheesh, man, I'm glad I never fell for his bullshit. Nosiree, MR. Mind never fooled me for an instant. But all you X premies? You're gonna be X'd alright! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Subject: Thank you. Yes, the answer on the rocks. From: Tonette To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 18:28:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to hear this as I have always found Jim and Pat to be of the highest integrity. Wow, is this some shit. Imagine invading Recent Ex's and just reading and then getting crucified over it, just reading. Does the recent ex's club think Jim was the only one to invade their domain? I think I will apply for a password, just for a lark. Thanks Richard. I appreciate your reply. I really do. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: Please discuss this on Symposium From: Richard To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 21:21:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I appreciate that, Tonette and welcome back. Yes, it was too intense a situation for me to make light of it. Symposium is a great place to cover these types of discussions. Keep reading the threads over there for all the intrigue. Likewise, ask over there if you have questions about this. Richard, move along folks

Subject: Looking for details/Barcelona program From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:19:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend would like to attend ...... Anybody to help me ?

Subject: Re: Looking for details/Barcelona program From: Djuro To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 07:58:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your friend is late!

Subject: Re: Looking for details/Barcelona program From: Will To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:05:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: see http://www.contact-info.net/events/Europe/barcelona2002.html

Subject: link for Barcelona From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:09:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Barcelona www.contact-info.net/events/Europe/barcelona2002.html The public program is open to interested people, but premies can only attend if they are accompanied by a newcomer.

Subject: Re: link for Barcelona From: Will To: Will Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:14:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This site indicates that there were two knowledge sessions in Madrid last weekend. Also on Barcelona www.fundacionelanvital.es/Barcelona2002.htm

Subject: good news for lurking premies From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No need to be afraid, the 'Knowledge' can work even better without the belief structures. Which reminds me;-Maharaji said way back, 'Belief is a locked box', it was even on posters with his picture. This attracted me as I wanted a direct experience of God, having previously had several experiences of satori (spontaneous awakenings), however, what I got was both an experience which I still enjoy and was the thing that hooked me in, and the biggest locked box imaginable. This post is just to say that there is a better life after this limiting belief system is renounced (I know it's a tough one-only took me 10 years-much easier nowadays with EPO).Free yourselves and really fly.

Subject: Never Con a Con Man From: Vicki To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:00:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone remember Maharaji saying this? I do on two occasions. One was specifically in Palm Springs, late eighties. He went on at length explaining this premise. The crux was, we could never BS him, satsang, service, meditation or devotion, because he could see through all the cons and excuses and ploys any mere mortal might try. Inlight of the previous threads, it seems that he understood to a very large degree the con. Maybe he learned this at the knee of Shri Hans or Mataji. Maybe he figured it out on his own. Maybe we were just so naive and trusting and open after the turmoil of the sixties. I've often heard about the letter that was left where Shri Hans gave his blessing to the three elder boys and full prostrations to Sant Ji. I never saw it. He says he heard a voice say three times 'You are the one.' Maybe, maybe not. He said Shri Hans appreared to him and made him eat mangos whilst discussing Perfect Master stuff. Possibly, or possibly not. All these legends were doled out by Mahatma's as THE truth. We had to ingest them like oxygen to be accepted for knowledge. Anything they chose to tell us was irrefutable, as we had no bench mark of comparison in our western world, other than the second coming of Christ. Too question would have been to not receive knowledge! And to question afterwards would have been public admittance of not being surrendered, and horror of horrors, in one's mind. In retrospect, it is mind boggling.

Subject: Marianne – meditation and prisoners From: Dep To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 17:15:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Marianne, we spoke earlier about meditation and the rehabilitation of prisoners. Check out this SF Weekly article by Joel P. Engardio. http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2000-12-20/feature.html/1/index.html San Francisco County Jail No. 3 is a hellhole. Can an ancient, intense form of meditation improve life for the inmates? Apparently so! According to San Francisco Sheriff Michael Hennessey, 'The show of self-control and discipline at Tihar Jail in Delhi India was intense, and we're talking about really murderous and horrible criminals -- more so than we ever see at No. 3,' he says. 'If Vipassana could do that in India, then I figured it might help my inmates find a respite from the horrible conditions they have to live in here. They, too, could have a break from the chaos. Even if only in their minds.' The National Institutes of Health has funded a study to find out whether Vipassana meditation can help inmates curb their drug and alcohol addictions and become less inclined to return to a life of crime. The NIH will begin next month by focusing on a small, minimum-security facility near Seattle -- the first jail outside of India to adopt the Vipassana technique. Since that jail started the Vipassana program three years ago, the anecdotal evidence of its success has been encouraging. Now San Francisco's medium-security No. 3 jail will become the second -- and by far the largest -- in North America to experiment with Vipassana when it begins teaching inmates early next year. The art of Vipassana had been lost in India for 2,000 years when New Delhi's Tihar Jail was at its brutal worst during the latter half of the 20th century. Today's teachers of Vipassana claim that Gautama Buddha discovered the meditation technique in India 500 years before the birth of Christ. But its practice faded after the seventh century. As India embraced Hinduism, Buddhism migrated east, marrying Taoism in China and Shinto in Japan, and landing in its original form in Burma along the way. It was only there that a small, devout band of monks kept Buddha's Vipassana alive through the generations -- until a Burmese businessman, S. N. Goenka, searching for a cure to his stressful life and the migraines that came with it, visited the monastery in the 1950s. As his headaches disappeared, S. N. Goenka became an ardent believer and practitioner of Vipassana. He moved to India and devoted his life to spreading the meditation practice around the world. Now in his late 70s, Goenka enjoys the same level of reverence from his students as other iconic spiritual teachers, such as the Dalai Lama. Goenka's boldest attempt to change lives with Vipassana was in Tihar Jail. The prison is the largest in India and has been considered one of the most dangerous in the Third World. The accommodations were abominable: open-air cells in the seasonally frigid northern climate, stone slab beds, standing pools of water acting as bath and toilet. The behavior of inmates -- and guards -- was frightening (as is well documented by human rights groups). There was blackmail and anarchy, torture and killing. Drug cartels, gangs, and assaults were rampant. The inmates ruled themselves in a twisted hierarchy, while the guards played a hand in many of the atrocities. With each course, Vipassana appeared to transform the atmosphere of the jail. News reports of the time noted that instead of fighting, inmates planted flowers on the prison grounds. By the mid-1990s, Vipassana was major force at Tihar, being taught to 1,000 inmates at a time. An Israeli-produced film, Doing Time Doing Vipassana, chronicled the amazing developments, showing hardened criminals weeping in the arms of their teachers -- and even their prison guards -- upon their exit from 10 days of silent meditation. PBS broadcast the documentary in the United States. It was also a hit in theaters, winning the Golden Spire Award at the 1998 San Francisco International Film Festival. Vipassana followers who made pilgrimages to India to study under Goenka began setting up civilian Vipassana retreats in the U.S. -- near Yosemite, in Texas, the Pacific Northwest, and New England -- teaching the technique to capacity crowds. IMO this is also an important difference between Mr. Goenka and Mr. Rawat! But as Lucia Meijer of the Seattle-area jail pointed out, some worry that Vipassana is a cult. Snyder is quick to explain that Goenka is not a god. Though people respect him for preserving Vipassana, they don't worship him. 'Goenka has great charisma and is a wise trainer, but he is not Vipassana,' Snyder says. 'His students revere him very much, and consider him the person who helped them change their lives. As long as we have Goenka, we will ask his insight. But when he's no longer here, Vipassana will be just as strong.' In addition, Goenka leads no centralized organization. Each Vipassana retreat is a separate nonprofit trust run by an unpaid board of directors. Goenka appoints the teachers, and the teachers control the boards. A volunteer staff of advanced students of Vipassana operate the centers, which provide free food and lodging to meditators. Donations finance everything.

Subject: The Bible and Christianity... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:04:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeezum Crow Dep, you take the Bible literally? Quite strange. I saw a documentary on Discovery or History Channel about retracing Jesus's life. Through archealogical digs they traced his life as much as they could. It was determined by the anthropologists and the diggers that his only special power would have been to heal the poor. He bathed the poor, he was violent (turning over the tables in the Temple), he had sex, and was a political provacateur on his own behalf. I personally despise the Bible. It's used so much to justify the many and various wrongs done in the world. Women are demeaned. And he didn't write the f**king thing. It's all just crap. Btw, ever visited a prison or jail? Get a clue, Dep, get a clue.

Subject: Re: The Bible and Christianity... From: Dep To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:12:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeezum Crow Dep, you take the Bible literally? Quite strange. I saw a documentary on Discovery or History Channel about retracing Jesus's life. Through archealogical digs they traced his life as much as they could. It was determined by the anthropologists and the diggers that his only special power would have been to heal the poor. He bathed the poor, he was violent (turning over the tables in the Temple), he had sex, and was a political provacateur on his own behalf. I personally despise the Bible. It's used so much to justify the many and various wrongs done in the world. Women are demeaned. And he didn't write the f**king thing. It's all just crap. Btw, ever visited a prison or jail? Get a clue, Dep, get a clue. --- Am I supposed to take that literally? So Jesus is a doctor now! So what have we got so far: a farmer, a social worker, and now a doctor. I think the only worldly trade he has was carpentry. Yes, I have visited a maximum security prison where men were in for 10 years plus. You could cut the tension with a knife. Someone in a meditative state would have been good.

Subject: Dep...why don't you volunteer... From: Cynthia To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:22:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To teach meditation at prisons. You're so intent on it's viability in helping prisoners, so instead of posting here, go teach techniques. Then, come back and tell us of your successes and failures. But, you have to be honest, and you can't be a guru!;)

Subject: Great suggestion, Cynthia From: Marianne To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 10:54:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, by all means Dep, run down to the local jail today and bring a copy of the video for those who run it to preview. If you think this is such a great idea, stand behind it and see if you can convince those in your community to take some action. Don't post here and debate with us about it - go do something practical about your ideas and suggestions. Tell us what kind of a reception you got from the experts - the people who deal with prisoners every day - and from the prisoners themselves. I'd be very interested to hear the results of your experiment. Of course, my insights, after having worked with prisons and prisoners for 27 years, are irrelevant. Show me how wrong I am by doing something about this yourself. Marianne

Subject: Re: Great suggestion, Cynthia From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 17:26:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, by all means Dep, run down to the local jail today and bring a copy of the video for those who run it to preview. If you think this is such a great idea, stand behind it and see if you can convince those in your community to take some action. Don't post here and debate with us about it - go do something practical about your ideas and suggestions. Tell us what kind of a reception you got from the experts - the people who deal with prisoners every day - and from the prisoners themselves. I'd be very interested to hear the results of your experiment. Of course, my insights, after having worked with prisons and prisoners for 27 years, are irrelevant. Show me how wrong I am by doing something about this yourself. Marianne --- Marianne, You know I just might do this. After I do the 10 day Vipassana retreat with the S.N. Goenka people I'll look into it. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. -- John 15:13

Subject: Working at this jail made me an ex, Dog! From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 21:37:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep: If you re-read my Journey, you will see that what made me leave M behind was working in the jails in S an Francisco. I worked at all of them. Sheriff Hennessey was the lawyer for the jail when I worked there. He is an old friend of mine. I have practiced criminal law in SF for 22 years and am well aware of the innovative programs that the criminal justice system employs in an attempt to prevent people from returning. I can tell you in all certainty Dep, that no one in that jail is going to tell these prisoners that meditation is the answer to their life problems. The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. There are also acupuncture sessions available -- as part of a much bigger treatment program -- for serious drug addicts. San Francisco is probably the most expensive housing market in the US. There are thousands of homeless on our streets. Believe me, Sheriff Hennessey is not telling these prisoners that meditation is going to help them find an affordable place to live and a job that pays for rent and food when they get out. If meditation alleviates some internal suffering, fine. But it is an absolutely morally bankrupt idea to think that these people are going to get back on their feet by simply listening to their breath. It is exactly that kind of thinking which premies spouted to me when I was working in the jail that made me leave it all behind. Marianne

Subject: Re: Working at this jail made me an ex, Dog! From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 08:10:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. Marianne, You must admit that there are educated people, with marketable job skills and nice housing that commit horrible crimes. And there are all kinds of educated people with marketable job skills and nice housing that become serious drug addicts or commit suicide. In fact in 1991, more people in the U.S. died by suicide than by homicide and even super rich people commit horrible crimes. If, as you say, meditation alleviates internal suffering, why not go for it. It might sound hackneyed to you, but peace in the world cannot be achieved unless there is peace within individuals. Most of the problems in the world are created by inappropriate human behaviour. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (John 4:24)

Subject: Correction! From: Dep To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:07:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The primary focus of the SF jail programs is giving people basic education (which most lack), basic job skills and training (which most have never had), and some limited counselling. Marianne, You must admit that there are educated people, with marketable job skills and nice housing that commit horrible crimes. And there are all kinds of educated people with marketable job skills and nice housing that become serious drug addicts or commit suicide. In fact in 1991, more people in the U.S. died by suicide than by homicide and even super rich people commit horrible crimes. If, as you say, meditation alleviates internal suffering, why not go for it. It might sound hackneyed to you, but peace in the world cannot be achieved unless there is peace within individuals. Most of the problems in the world are created by inappropriate human behaviour. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (John 4:24) --- Sorry, that Bible quote should be Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 16:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep... You really shouldn't be quoting Bible verses when you have so little grasp of what they mean. What the hell has 'the Kingdom of God' and 'righteousness' to do with meditation? Does meditation make you 'righteous'? Do you have any technical grasp at all of the meaning of the term 'Kingdom of God'? Let's get something straight: no way was Christ a pantheist. No way did he teach karma, or reincarnation, or any of the other trappings of pantheism, including mediation. Premies used to take refs to 'light' out of context and claim Christ dished out the 4 techniques, but I would have thought by now that we would all have outgrown such obvious rationalisations. Face it: there is more than one school of spiritual thought on this planet. Pantheism is one. Theism--Christianity is theistic--is another. They are utterly different. Yes, perhaps mediation can calm down prisoners. (How would I know different?) But spare us the bullshit about Christ teaching this stuff. Neville

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 20:49:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You really shouldn't be quoting Bible verses when you have so little grasp of what they mean. What the hell has 'the Kingdom of God' and 'righteousness' to do with meditation? Does meditation make you 'righteous'? Do you have any technical grasp at all of the meaning of the term 'Kingdom of God'? Jesus never taught meditation did he! No of course not. He was just a nice guy. 2 Timothy 1: 6: Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7: For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Subject: Re: Correction to your correction From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:20:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For all the relevance these references have to the business of meditation you may as well have stuck a pin in the NT at random and quoted the verse you found. And are you saying that, by definition, a nice guy must teach/ approve of/ practice meditation? Frankly, I don't think you know what you're saying. Neville

Subject: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 05:44:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, I have gone through this exercise with Dep before, in fact, several times. He actually believes that he has a profound understanding of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, and that is all shows continuity between the Perfect Master of the past and the present Perfect Master. He refuses to acknowldge any historical, political, or cultural context to the texts, and only uses the KJV because the translation is poor enough to aid his cause. You can try to help him see reason on this, but I don't think you will be successful.

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:53:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, Did you know that Orthodox Jews spell God, G-d (or some such equivalent in Hebrew), because they don't want to confuse the word, the symbol with the Reality. The letters G-o-d are not God. The word 'God' is just a piece of noise. Most people don't get the difference between the concept and the experience. Most people remain caught up in language, the story, the history about it all. They have no idea what Jesus meant in John 8: 51-59 '51': Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. '52': Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. '53': Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? '54': Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: '55': Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. '56': Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. '57': Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? '58': Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. '59': Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - 'Unless you change and become as a little child you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.' Or course Mickey will probably tell you that Jesus didn't say that.

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 11:45:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why my bishop sent me to seminary; I could have called you and you would have `splained everyting! And by adopting your combination of Sunday School piety and New Age mysticism, I would be able to start my own cult! So, just what do YOU think is meant by the phrase 'Reign of God?'

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 19:45:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know why my bishop sent me to seminary; I could have called you and you would have `splained everyting! And by adopting your combination of Sunday School piety and New Age mysticism, I would be able to start my own cult! So, just what do YOU think is meant by the phrase 'Reign of God?' --- First off, you are the one who needs to 'splain everyting.' You are stuck in your story. Second, Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world.' So why does mysticism have to be New Age? Don't tell me He never said that! Third, how do you know I've never been to a seminary?

Subject: Re: Don't bother, Neville From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 05:45:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep wrote: 'Third, how do you know I've never been to a seminary?' I don't *know* that you haven't been to a seminary, but, due to your total lack of exegetical skills, ignorance of current biblical scholarship, lack of knowledge regarding Christian spirituality and your use of the Authorised or King James Version of the bible, I suspect that you haven't been to seminary, or at least you haven't attended a seminary since 1959. Of course, Dep, there are seminaries and there are Seminaries. There is a difference between Bethel Bible College and Harvard Divinity School. There is a difference between Unity school and the Graduate Theological Union. There is a difference between a bible correspondence course and Cuddeston. I was thinking the other day how I know nothing about you, Dep, except that you are or were, a cult member. I don't know where you live or what you do or even where you went to seminary (yeah, right).

Subject: Pretentious and condescending From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 07:38:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't 'know' that you haven't been to a seminary, but, due to your total lack of exegetical skills, ignorance of current biblical scholarship, lack of knowledge regarding Christian spirituality and your use of the Authorised or King James Version of the bible, I suspect that you haven't been to seminary, or at least you haven't attended a seminary since 1959. Of course, Dep, there are seminaries and there are Seminaries. There is a difference between Bethel Bible College and Harvard Divinity School. There is a difference between Unity school and the Graduate Theological Union. There is a difference between a bible correspondence course and Cuddeston. You know of course that Christ's disciples were humble fishermen who may have been illiterate and completely lacking in exegetical skills . . . not a BD among them. And now I hear that all Christians before 1959 were idiots too? How arrogant and condescending.

Subject: Re: Pretentious and condescending From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 11:50:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh, do you have virtual ADD or something? You asked 'How do you know I didn't go to seminary?' I responded. Now you defend illiterate fisherman and Christians from 1959? That is your response? I guess stomping off in a self-rightous huff helps you evade dealing with the ridiculous statements you have been making throughout this thread. You are one piece of work!! In Christian love, Mickey

Subject: Re: Pretentious and condescending From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 13:38:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sheesh, do you have virtual ADD or something? You asked 'How do you know I didn't go to seminary?' I responded. Now you defend illiterate fisherman and Christians from 1959? That is your response? I guess stomping off in a self-rightous huff helps you evade dealing with the ridiculous statements you have been making throughout this thread. You are one piece of work!! In Christian love, Mickey --- I am defending Christ's disciples and all Christians prior to 1959. And you call Bible quotes ridiculous statements? I am not stomping off in a self-righteous huff? It's just that your sophistry makes me sick. You can take your so-called 'Christian' love and shove it. Fuck off you prick!

Subject: MICKEY IS NOT A PRICK, DOG! From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 17:24:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dog, Mickey is a minister who works every day with the poor of Panama. He has put his beliefs to work on a daily basis in the most concrete way possible. He gave up a comfortable life in California in order to better the lives of others. He has advanced university degrees and has a theological education. He is vastly more educated then you are on these subjects. Nevertheless, he tried to explain to you why and how he disagreed. Your arguments in this thread seem to be that just because you are human, that experience gives you superior knowledge about prisons, prisoners, and Christ, than those who have years of university and work experience in these arenas. Mickey finally threw up his virtual hands in frustration when you tossed back the odd biblical passage instead of responding to the questions put to you. Mickey is one of the people I have come to respect the most here, Dog. That's because he lives a life consistent with his beliefs. What do you do to make the world a better place, on a daily basis, that truly affects other peoples' lives? It's easy to take potshots at Mickey or me, or others, for our opinions and ideas, and for what we do to carry out those ideals, from the safety of your philosophical ivory tower. What do you do besides take pot shots at us and pontificate about the benefits of meditation? Marianne

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 14:33:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's your interpretation of the quotes, not the quotes themselves, which are ridiculous. And pre-1959 Christians certainly don't need any defense from you, do they? I had not insulted Christians from that era, I just said that you hadn't been in a seminary since then (knowing full well that you probably have NEVER been in a seminary). The problem is, you don't know what you're talking about, but you just can't quit, for some reason. You have yet to actually respond to any of my points. So, I'll just leave it at that. Well, except to say 'JESUS NEVER TAUGHT MEDITATION TECHNIQUES, AND HE SURE AS HELL DIDN'T TEACH THE FOUR TECHNIQUES YOU CALL 'KNOWLEDGE'!!!' Here endeth the lesson. Thanks be to God.

Subject: Dep 4 - Mickey 0 [nt] From: agape To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 08:38:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And lo, as before, Dep disappeareth.. [nt] From: Livia To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 04:17:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dep...Addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 10:06:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just as before, Dep truly has disappeared. It always happens in a discussion with him. Aguments go back and forth, and just as big holes begin to appear in Deps', he vanishes! Dep, this just isn't good enough! It's very annoying and frustrating to the people who put time and energy in debating with you, and if it were in physical space not cyberspace it would be akin to you suddenly turning on your heel and walking off in the middle of a discussion, without so much as a 'by your leave'. Micky the Pharisee wrote a long, articulate and well-considered post to you, demonstrating an enormous depth of knowledge and experience, and what do you do? You vanish! You did it to me once, and when I brought it up later you told me to 'give it a rest'. You gave me no choice. Why do you do this? It's rude, it's arrogant and it's irritating in the extreme, and you do yourself no favours. Come back to the fray and have the courage to continue with the argument. Livia

Subject: Re: Dep...Addendum From: Deputy Dog To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 09, 2002 at 16:37:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just as before, Dep truly has disappeared. It always happens in a discussion with him. Aguments go back and forth, and just as big holes begin to appear in Deps', he vanishes! Dep, this just isn't good enough! It's very annoying and frustrating to the people who put time and energy in debating with you, and if it were in physical space not cyberspace it would be akin to you suddenly turning on your heel and walking off in the middle of a discussion, without so much as a 'by your leave'. Micky the Pharisee wrote a long, articulate and well-considered post to you, demonstrating an enormous depth of knowledge and experience, and what do you do? You vanish! You did it to me once, and when I brought it up later you told me to 'give it a rest'. You gave me no choice. Why do you do this? It's rude, it's arrogant and it's irritating in the extreme, and you do yourself no favours. Come back to the fray and have the courage to continue with the argument. Livia --- Truly disappeared? I went to a cottage for the weekend. And when did big holes start to appear in my arguments? I think I missed it. And why should I be obliged to argue with a hopeless fool like Mickey who know nothing about the inner directed aspects of Christianity? Take the following verses from Psalm 46:1-11: '1': God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. '2': Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; '3': Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah. '4': There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. '5': God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early. '6': The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted. '7': The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah. '8': Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth. '9': He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire. '10': Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. '11': The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah. That clown probably thinks that Be still, and know that I am God is somehow related to catatonia. I shouldn't have called him a prick, but you have to admit, the man is embarrassingly full of shit.

Subject: Mickey the Pharisee From: Livia To: Deputy Dog Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 04:38:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dep, I'm reposting a post of Marianne's to you from the other day, because I think it might be a good idea for you to reread it in the light of what you just called him. Marianne describes Mickey to you: 'Dog, Mickey is a minister who works every day with the poor of Panama. He has put his beliefs to work on a daily basis in the most concrete way possible. He gave up a comfortable life in California in order to better the lives of others. He has advanced university degrees and has a theological education. He is vastly more educated then you are on these subjects. Nevertheless, he tried to explain to you why and how he disagreed. Your arguments in this thread seem to be that just because you are human, that experience gives you superior knowledge about prisons, prisoners, and Christ, than those who have years of university and work experience in these arenas. Mickey finally threw up his virtual hands in frustration when you tossed back the odd biblical passage instead of responding to the questions put to you. Mickey is one of the people I have come to respect the most here, Dog. That's because he lives a life consistent with his beliefs.' And you say: 'And why should I be obliged to argue with a hopeless fool like Mickey who know nothing about the inner directed aspects of Christianity? That clown probably thinks that Be still, and know that I am God is somehow related to catatonia. I shouldn't have called him a prick, but you have to admit, the man is embarrassingly full of shit.' Think about it, Dep, just think about it. OK, so you didn't disappear; you went to the country for a couple of days - fair enough, I stand corrected. But you have just said yourself that you see no point in arguing with someone who 'knows nothing about the inner directed aspects of Christianity'. I fear you see no point in arguing with anyone who holds different views to your own. You see your own views as indisputable fact, not just views, and you seem to regard with contempt anyone who sees things differently. Mickey apparently works with the poor of Panama. People who have had near-death experiences often come back reporting an intense sense that the highest purpose of life is true kindness towards others. Do you really feel that sitting for hours in meditation somehow makes one superior in some way to people who give their lives in service to others? I have known people who have meditated diligently for decades and still live lives that don't bear close scrutiny; they certainly don't appear to care much for others. Do you think that in some way those people are closer to 'the truth' - because they meditate? And by meditate, Dep, I don't mean just sit there thinking, I mean really focus, have repeated transcendental experiences, and claim to feel 'close to God'. And why don't you look into the true history of Jesus? The actual, known, documented, historical facts? Not the impression of Jesus you get from the King James Version, but the story you get from the earliest translation, which still doesn't even go as far as proving his historical existence? Oh yes, some of the King James version is beautiful, and can be interpreted to give mystical meaning, but why are you so sure that this is the reality? Because it backs up the way you like to see things? Because it backs up the story you've told yourself for so many years about life and the universe? The story you can't bear to question or examine? Question it, Dep! Examine it! Uncover every stone! Don't just take it on trust because you like the sound of it and it fits in neatly with what you believe. You've got to be more courageous than that. Find the true historical evidence that Jesus existed and was a mystical teacher and then come back and tell what you've found. Copying out vast tracts from the King James version of the Bible means nothing at all -you've got to look a bit deeper than that. And lastly, don't you think you owe Mickey an apology for calling him a 'hopeless fool', a 'clown' and 'embarrassingly full of shit'? Think about it. Livia

Subject: Re: Mickey the Pharisee From: M the P To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 16:44:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you, Livia (and Marianne) for your kind words on my behalf. I do want to say that, while I work with the poor of Panama, I am not Mother Theresa; I'm a priest and I work with the oor and the rich and the tiny middle class, too. My church happens to be in a very poor, inner-city neighborhood and I encounter incredibly poor people every day; the level of poverty in Central America is devastating. Dep thinks that I 'know nothing about the inner directed aspects of Christianity,' but he is jumping to conclusions. I have a deep spiritual life, but I don't talk about it here and I reject his idea that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are about Knowlege or meditation. Of course there is prayer and contemplation in both traditions, but it is not the eye-ball-squeezing-snoring-under-the-bedspread meditation called Knowledge. As far as the verse from Psalm 46 is concerned (Be still and know that I am God), it is about being still and listening for God's voice (metaphorically speaking; if you hear a voice, you may be schizophrenic). If prayer is an internal dialogue with God, a conversation, then one must listen after talking. It isn't about the four techniques no matter how much he wants to believe that.

Subject: You don't walk on water, Mickey??? From: Marianne To: M the P Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 19:07:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Geez, I always thought you did! Far be it for me to romanticize your work and who you are. The commitment you have made to other people is an extraordinary thing, Mickey. While the accolades and praise may make you feel uncomfortable, they are deserved. Marianne

Subject: 'Mickey the Pharisee' post (above) for att, of Dep [nt] From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 04:45:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Cynthia To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 15:17:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mickey, Sorry if I offended by my statements above about the Bible. I don't begrudge anyone who practices a religion with eyes wide open and especially those, like you, who help people along the way. Cynthia

Subject: ¡No hay problema, Cynthia! nt From: Mickey el Fariseo To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 11:31:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sin texto

Subject: So you're the only one with ears to hear? [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:02:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Yep: that'd be a good start [nt] From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 13:58:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep: that'd be a good start From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 16:30:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: One last chance, Dep From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:37:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You stick a bunch of verses on the page as if that proves something. You don't even offer an interpretation. Well, I have no difficulty at all understanding what Jesus was saying in those verses--in some instances I can claim to have experienced it personally, directly--and can assure you it has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. What exactly is your point? I repeat: there are different schools of spiritual thought, with many different origins and different conclusions. You seem determined to force all of them into your own, single, preconceived model regardless of the facts. I'm beginning to think Mickey is right: that you are just not worth talking to. Neville

Subject: Re: One last chance, Dep From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:47:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gee thanks for giving me that once last chance Neville. I really appreciate that. I repeat: there are different schools of spiritual thought, with many different origins and different conclusions. You seem determined to force all of them into your own, single, preconceived model regardless of the facts. What exactly is my preconceived model? And what facts am I ignoring? And has it ever occurred to you that I might be familiar with more than one school of spiritual thought? In fact, there are many types of meditation out there, and I've done my share. Apparently, the only thing I've proved with the Bible verses is that you are a bit thick. Let them hear that have ears to hear.

Subject: Yep. I'm wasting my time. [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:26:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep. I'm wasting my time. From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:10:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is what Jesus says to those who lead others away from the Spirit. I didn't make this up. Matthew 18:5-10. '5': And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. '6': But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. '7': Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! '8': Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. '9': And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. '10': Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. --- --- --- --- It's one thing to waste someone's time; it's another thing to lead them astray.

Subject: Your point is...? [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 03:03:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Gee, I don't know Neville . . [nt] From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 08:33:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Yep. I'm wasting my time. From: Dep To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 20:07:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:07:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look, I appreciate you are saying that meditation might be of some help to people in prison. But if you believe that meditation is going to help mentally ill people regain mental health, homeless people find places to live, unemployed people find well paying jobs -- the primary reasons people end up incarcerated -- then you are living in a fairy tale, Dog. This is the candy coated story Maharaji told us umpteen years ago that I fell for. It didn't work, did it? All it did was make Rotwat rich. I ask you again -- what experience do you have working with incarcerated people? This is just a pipe-dream, a folly. I'd like to see you go tell my death row clients that if only they had meditated, they could have avoided the adult results of that nasty childhood filled with horrific sexual, physical and emotional abuse.

Subject: Re: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Bolly To: Marianne Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:04:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marrianne Hi! Last year I was incacerated at theb local nick for an afternoon while a multi national formerly known as Enron erected a fence to keep me and my ilk at bay. I can honestly say that K n M did not protect my nostrils from the stench of that place. I'm going straight now govner honest. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Ever been to jail or prison, Dep? From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 20:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I didn't make up John:24 or Matthew 6:33 and neither did Maharaji. Jesus said these things. I have never been to jail or prison and in many respects I have had an easy life. But I do know that through the Spirit and Vipassana people can transcend their conditioning, at least to some degree. People do not have to be billiard balls totally caught up in stimulus-response. The article says that Vipassana worked in Tihar jail and Tihar jail probably makes Prison Number 3 in SF look like a Holiday Inn. At least see the movie Doing Time Doing Vipassana. Do you know how the experiment in Prison Number 3 worked out?

Subject: What works-The Garden Project From: Marianne To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:28:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Look Dog, I realize you are trying to have a discussion with me about this, but you have no experience in this area! The issue isn't 'stimulus-response'. Incercerated people have -- typically -- been neglected, abused, under or never educated, have some sort of mental impairment that requires a more sophisticated answer than meditation. You want to see something that does work? Go to www.gardenproject.org This project is run by a law school classmate of mine. She works with prisoners in the San Francisco jails and teaches them gardening - real skills - that can be translated into real world job opportunities. This experience translates into both real world and internal lessons. This is the kind of program that is attempting to deal with recidivist offenders, and is having some success. I heard about the Vipassana movie when it came out. I will call Sheriff Hennessey and the people in Prisoner Services (where I used to work) and see what they have to say about this issue. But I am telling you Dog, I know these people. I work with them. These are the same people who extricated me from the cult! I am virtually certain they will say that they were willing to try something a little bit different to see if it helped a tiny proportion of the inmates who might benefit from it. Believe me, they'll tell me the Garden Project is more likely to help these folks before sitting around navel gazing will. Sorry to sound a bit pissed off, but you have no idea about the inmate population other than what you've seen in a movie. Marianne

Subject: Re: What works-The Garden Project From: Vicki To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 20:57:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In our area they've started a project whereby trained dog groomers teach inmates how to professionally groom dogs. There is also a program where they teach farm animal husbandry. Both are having great success. There was also a special on TV where they are training companion dogs which help wheelchair bound people. Quite amazing results.

Subject: Re: What works? From: Dep To: Marianne Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 15:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marianne, I have no experience in this area! I'm a human being ain't I? I know you are Catholic - you mentioned going to mass once when you were in Paris - so you undoubtedly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of G-d. Well I just did a quick search through the New Testament and could not find one reference Jesus made about gardening. He did speak of the Spirit though. I'm sorry if I too sound a bit pissed off but I feel very strongly about this subject. Thanks for offering to call Sheriff Hennessey. I am interested to hear what he says. =)

Subject: you're a flaming ass, dep From: janet To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 06:48:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was sitting yesterday morning with my roommate talking about some parable I couldnt quite place, and he got up and took down our Bible and dove into the new testament, looking for the parable he wanted to wuote, and guess what, dep? what the hell do you think all those parables about tending seeds and vineyards are, fool? that isnt gardening?? 'by your fruits ye shall know them?' 'swords into plowshares'? what kind of an ass are you, anyway? not the one JC rode into jerusalem on, not even that useful. god, are you stupid.! '....duuuhhhh, i cooodnt fine wunn refruns ta gardunning in thuh bible. jezis nevur talked abowt it. duhhhh...' boot to the head, dog. go back to school.

Subject: Re: you're a flaming ass, janet From: Dep To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 20:31:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Janet, So Jesus was some sort of combine harvestor whose primarily interest was farming. You should talk with Mickey, he thinks Jesus was a social worker. Luke 8 '4': And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: '5': A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. '6': And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. '7': And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. '8': And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. '9': And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? '10': And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. '11': Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. '12': Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. '13': They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. '14': And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. '15': But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Subject: Your claws are showing dep From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:26:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anger management classes dep, save you so much time.

Subject: These refs are irrelevant [nt] From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:21:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: you're a flaming carrot From: Neville To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:55:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, Jesus was once mistaken for a gardener, by Mary Magdalene. This was in Gethsemene just after his resurrection (see John 20:15)What's interesting is that in those days people had only one set of clothes, so gardening was done without clothes. That might be why she thought he was the gardener: he was naked. Neville

Subject: Re: What works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:28:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Dep, Jesus made many references to sowing and harvesting, especially in reference to the Kingdom of God (I prefer the term Reign of God since I'm not a royalist). Matthew 13:18-31 is full of 'gardening references.' As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? If this is so, why does India have so many poor? I think that you are a bit naive to think that meditation will solve the problems of our prison population; it is just as naive to go in and 'save' everyone in the prisons. I'm with Marianne on this one. Oh, by the way, just what IS John:24? There are only 21 chapters to the gospel of John. Mickey the exegete.

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 10:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? Yep, that's what He says in the Bible. Matthew 6:25-34 25: Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26: Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27: Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28: And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30: Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31: Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32: (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34: Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Luke 12:22-32 22: And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. 23: The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. 24: Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? 25: And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? 26: If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? 27: Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28: If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? 29: And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 30: For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Subject: Re: Yeah, what works? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Fri, Jul 05, 2002 at 11:57:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, so he isn't saying 'Don't worry, trust God.' He's saying, 'meditate and you will be taken care of.' Where, exactly, is the meditation reference? Or do you claim that the Kingdom of God is eyeball squeezing? You really think that Jesus was a meditation teacher? Oh, before you respond 'you think Jesus was a social worker' let me say that, no, I believe that Jesus was an intinerant preacher and healer, but he wanted his followers to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, heal the sick, visit the prisoner and welcome the stranger as the means of bringing about the Reign of God.

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 19:04:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually Dep, Jesus made many references to sowing and harvesting, especially in reference to the Kingdom of God (I prefer the term Reign of God since I'm not a royalist). Matthew 13:18-31 is full of 'gardening references.' As for Matthew 6:33, do you think that Jesus meant that as long as you meditate you will have food and clothing? If this is so, why does India have so many poor? I think that you are a bit naive to think that meditation will solve the problems of our prison population; it is just as naive to go in and 'save' everyone in the prisons. I'm with Marianne on this one. Oh, by the way, just what IS John:24? There are only 21 chapters to the gospel of John. Mickey the exegete. --- Thanks Mickey, I had no idea Jesus was so interested in horticulture. It should be John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. What does Jesus mean by Mark 8:36. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? I'm sure your interpretation would curdle my blood. I’d love to hear your interpretation of Psalm 23. I think it would probably go something like this: '1': The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. David is obviously talking about sheep farming here. '2': He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. Again references to fields of beets perhaps or other green plants, and walking beside a nice quiet lake. '3': He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. He is obviously talking about shoe repair and accurate maps so you get to the right place. '4': Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. I don’t know what he is talking about here. Definitely not energy rising up the spine. '5': Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Again obvious references to dining room furniture, quality hair products, and unfortunately poor table manners. Please stop pouring when you see the cup is full! '6': Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. The house of the Lord? A nice three bedroom bungalow perhaps, with a finished basement and in a nice neighbourhood. Frightening!

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Neville To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:57:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One should not push a metaphor too far... Neville

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 04:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That Psalm 23 thing was pretty funny, Dep. But I really don't spend a lot of time *interpreting* the Bible, especially the psalms. The psalms were liturgical music and poetry, I don't think that they are full of great mystical meaning. It seems that you see the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as some sort of mystical puzzle which requires deciphering. Do you really think that the second half of verse 4 of psalm 23 (your point 4) actually has to do with the kundalini? Do you really think it is about energy rising up the spine? Don't you think that, since the author is using sheep herding as a metaphor of his relationship with God, that the 'rod and staff' actually represent a rod and staff, the means by which a shepherd directs the sheep? More probable than your 'interpretation,' I think. As for Mark 8:36, if you read the verse in context, Jesus is talking about the possiblity of persecution. The verse before the one you quoted reads 'For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it.' The gospel of Mark was probably written just after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE and the beginning of some small-scale persecutions so the author was inserting a word of comfort to his readers who were suffering persecution. Jesus probably did not say this stuff. I hope your blood isn't curdling.

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 16:26:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hmm. I would have read the Mark 8:34-38 as pretty fundamental, theologically. Of course you have to lose your life--you can't be born again unless you have first died. (Unless a seed fall into the ground etc.) Perhaps that's why so many people who walk around claiming to be born again are about as convincing as a seven pound note--they never understood that a spritual death must precede spiritual rebirth. Christ may not have spoken those specific words (but Matt repeated the whole of Mark, so he must have found it convincing—and where is Q in this argument?) but the underlying principles run right through the NT. Neville

Subject: Re: What works indeed? From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 17:58:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason I do not read it as a baptismal reference is because he says '...those who lose their life for my sake and the sake of the gospel.' Remember, the 'born again' stuff is Johaninne and not part of theology of Mark. The Jesus of Mark calls for repentance but not for one to be 'born again.' And, since we are talking about Mark's gospel, Q really doesn't enter into the discussion, in my opinion. Of course, none of it has anything to do with squeezing your eyeballs.

Subject: Point taken [nt] From: Neville To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 02:22:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Jesus and Monty Python From: Dep To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 05:26:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who can forget that hilarious scene in The Life of Brian when Jesus speaking to a crowd says, 'Blessed are the peacemakers.' A man at the back of the crowd didn't hear properly, so he asks the person standing next to him what Jesus said. The person next to him answers, 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.' 'Cheesmakers?' the man says in surprise. 'Well not just cheesemakers,' the second person replies, 'People involved in all aspects of the dairy industry.'

Subject: Re: Jesus and Monty Python From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Dep Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 13:38:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hahahahaha, yeah, that was a good movie, and the Monty Python guys had a better grasp of theology biblical scholarship than you do. I guess you are not going to address my comments, so, once again, I will refrain from reading your posts, although I do request that you stop proof-texting like a Fundamentalist.

Subject: Fundamentalism, passive aggression and anger From: hamzen To: Mickey the Pharisee Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 15:29:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: management. Sorry to use you Mickey, but dep is avoiding my posts, probably too aggressive for such a sensitive soul and I refuse to let this rest. But why is it that the most sensitive souls are riddled with passive aggression and avoidance techniques, and least able to deal with this planet when they supposedly understand spirit better than anyone else, very puzzling. I suspect it's all about anger avoidance, I think all introverts should be forced into anger management classes in primary school, it would have saved me so much time and grief, and probasbly all of us who became 'premies', and a lot of new agers too.

Subject: Re: Correction! From: Jerry To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. What does this have to do with Vipassana, Dep? Are you thinking about getting into this? I hear they have a ten day course, free of charge. They provide food and accomodations. You just provide the donation. I wonder if they take apples and oranges like they did at a K session.

Subject: And before peace arrives? From: hamzen To: Dep Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:22:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And everyone gets the message, what? Let em all rot and stew in their own juices? Also if you or your family members were attacked you wouldn't fight back to protect them?

Subject: plus From: hamzen To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:37:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this is the deputy dog who said any anger is totally destructive and to be avoided like the plague. Right so when they are being trashed or are homeless and are up against it remembering the name will stop all that, right. Like a lot of new agers I think dep's got an anger management problem and is in total denial. Don't blame hjim for it, I've got the same problem re relationships, too romantic, too idealized, always disappointed then heartbroken, whichever side it's finished. We were a bunch of over sensitive no-hopers when it comes to the heart.

Subject: God Realisation From: JohnT To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:29:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This was posted to me by a premie over at the Symposium. The original's here, if you're interested -- I've edited what follows to focus on the incredible conceit that even the 'nicest' premies display. I've added emphasis to the phrase I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one (M) opens. This seems to be the bub of it. No premie could go further in allowing the pssobilities that there are other paths to, uhhh, whatever-it-is. Yet despite all the apparent open-mindedness, there it is. The same old, same old. Exes never got it. The experience. Enlightenment, God Realisation. Whatever. M is the real McCoy, and all you exes just a bunch of losers. As for a never like me. Well, I dunno. Am I lower than you souls who at least tried to hear the word (but were too thick, deaf, in your minds, whatever, to get it)? Or are you lower than me, for I never heard the word only to spurn it? See, I had no chance before my mind was poisoned by you low lifes! You tell me. I'm off to throw up. ... while I can only affirm M's way for enabling a person to get linked with that thing within that I believe is the form of what the scriptures call God where it can be directly experianced by a living human being, I do not attempt to say that no other way to achieve that state can exist. ... some positive stuff ... happened to some jail house Christians as some 'grace' that had come to them thru their sincerity. And I've seen some AAs who are not premies have some results that strongly suggest to me a connection to God within them, tho not one that smacks of the kind of experiences the authors of scriptures describe such as I have had by M's kindness in revealing K to me and because K works. Can other ways work? Clearly 'Yes' for other things than what his initiation and subsequent use of the kryas as he instructs does, probably 'Yes' for a more limited form of God-realization. I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one he opens to folks; obviously I can't rule that out as I didn't try all paths by a long shot! But is he the only Master, or even the only Master of this path? I don't pretend to know, never have. I only state he IS a Master of this path, which CAN be used for direct internal experiance of God, and that occasionally even allows external exoeriances of God to occur. And I state this unequivically as testimony based on events I have experienced myself, some of which I have described on these fora. ...

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Carlos - To JohnT To: JohnT Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 17:54:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you even notice how your whole interpretation of the 1 part you chose to empasize was shown clearly as the bullshit it is by the rest of what you copied? I do thank you, incidently, for not just taking that 1 line by itself, out of context. It blew your case, tho, sinse I clearly stated I didn't rule out other equal paths or Masters, just that I'd never run across anything else that convinced me of its validity. Hell, you go further than I do; you rule out M and K, too! And at least I only ruled out ones I'd tried that didn't do it for me ... and even there left open the possibility it was in me, not in those other paths or Masters. Yet somehow you make me out to be the arrogant one in this exchange!!! It is not a stretch for most folks to understand the idea behind an 'I can only comment on what I've witnessed myself' report. I wonder what, in you, makes that so difficult?

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Jerry To: JohnT Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:27:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I'd like to know from Carlos is why some people don't experience God when they practice the techniques? I certainly never have. The way I figure it is, if there is a God, what's so special about Carlos that through these techniques he's come to know God, but others haven't. And why would a technique be required at all when you come to think of it? If God truly is within, then he should, well, just be there, no techniques required. Seems kind of silly to me that God created us, lives inside of us, and then got lost there, somehow, where he'd have to make us in such a way that he'd send a messenger/prophet with some meditation techniques so we could find him again. Sounds like an odd way of doing things. You have to figure that if God really wanted us to know him, he could just reveal himself at his own leisure. What need would he have of gurus and meditation? After all, he's God, isn't he? Sometimes you just gotta stop and think about these things. Unfortunately, when you do, it has a tendency to burst the bubble you're living in. Right, Carlos?

Subject: Re: God Realisation From: Carlos - To Jerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 18:24:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You ask, 'why some people don't experience God when they practice the techniques?'. I don't know. It certainly isn't that I am special in any way I know of. But I didn't experience the thing I believe is God just within, nor did the techniques open the door for me the times I leared them before it was thru M. So my guess is that his initiation reconnects a connection that somehow gets broken as infants learn to use their senses to focus outside. And some of us recognize that thing within as what it is, IMO, and some of us don't. Probably has to do with free will, in some way; which makes sense if we are all God in a bod, as I also believe. How could 1 part of God force another part of Himself to recognize anything? You also ask, 'why would a technique be required at all when you come to think of it? If God truly is within, then he should, well, just be there, no techniques required.' He IS there, no techniques required. Recognizing him seems to require a valid initiation, practice of the kryas, and thga attitude of a student. I don't know why it seems to work that way, either. Again, all of us being equally manifestations of God, and the Creation seeming to have been set up so that learning to focus our senses outside seems to break the connection we seem to have been born having (at least observing my daughter in her 1st few weeks of life certainl;y convinced me she was in samhadi, and even tho as her dad I'm convinced she is special my head knows that she wasn't different. We just are ALL special). I do agree with you that God the Creator could have chosen to do things differently than the way I believe things are. The point you seem to be missing is that if God the Creator exsists or exsisted s/he/it could choose, as far as we know, to do it ANY WAY s/he/it cared to. What I believe is the way s/he/it chose is just as possible, and as difficult to prove externally and objectively, as yours. You might try the study of Symbolic Logic, Jerry. One of the things you'll learn is that any chain of logic requires at least 2 assumptions. Change the assumptions and you'll change what conclusions are logical. Our assumptions are different today, tho at one time you may have shared mine (at least from what you say). I don't know, and don't care what you did or went thru for you to change your assumptions. That's your business. But I tested mine, and I'm happy with the degree and kind of proof I found. To any readers who feel satsanged, my apologies. I tried to respond to Jerry without disrespecting you by doing that; this is the best I could do.

Subject: Ah, but maybe God's like, um, shy [nt] From: Livia To: Jerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 06:10:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Right On , Jerry (NT) From: The Falcon To: Jerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:33:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Supreme arrogance From: Livia To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:40:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Interesting. And it's extreme arrogance, nothing less. When you really think about it, how can one ever say that one's path is 'the only way'? Without trying every single other path, how can one possibly say? 'I have seen no evidence that satisfies me that complete God-realization can be achieved thru any other path than the one he opens.' How far has he looked, I wonder? I'm afraid his protestations smack only of the need to be on the one superior path. It's no different to Christians saying Christ is the only way. It's fundamentalism, arrogance, spiritual one-upmanship, and I was guilty of it myself for 30 years. Livia

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Carlos - To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 18:50:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Pity you didn't read the whole quote. I commented on the very thing you mentioned, that just because I hadn't found it elsewhere didn't mean it wasn't somewhere I HADN'T tried. I even went further, by saying that some of the paths or Masters that hadn't worked for me might have failed because of ME, not them; I mentioned both that I might not have been ready or that I might have stopped them from working for me somehow. I also spoke (briefly) about some of the other paths I'd tried. But since you skipped that, too, and apear to think it is relevent: 1) 7 years total in rigerous study of martial arts, including private lessons when I started by an American Black Belt in Jhoon Rhee's sparring circle in Washington, DC. Took it to where I studied 2 Korean styles of Karate, 1 Japanese style of Karate, Judo, Shao Lin Temple Boxing (primarily Southern style, without the heavy emphasis on body strength and power of Northern style). Took it far enough that when the last instructer I worked out with created a self-defense course for women he called 'Jukado' because it combined elements of Judo, Karate and Akido he asked me to be his assistant even tho I am woefully ignorant of Akido. 2) Mastered enough Hatha Yoga Asanas that I was an assistant instructer of an intermediate level class. When my breathing and heart both apparently stopped for over an hour in the ashram in Puerto Rico I was doing 3rd technique while in Lotus. 3) Pranayama, with varios teachers, but never in that 3H group of seiks (sp?), tho I sometimes practiced with some of them who were friends. 4) Japa. Never did TM, but I was a Shivite for about 5 years before K, and tried many mantras. 4) Checked out the major religions, including their better recognized mystics. Read Spinoza, St. Augustine, etc. Studied the Kaballa. Hung out with Wiccans, and attended a few rituals of a coven in New Orleans and another i9n Chicago. Read all of the major Scriptures except the Qu'uran (because a Muslim friend I trusted on such things told me there is no good English translation and I haven't enough interest in it to learn Arabic). I could go on, but why ?

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Livia To: Carlos - To Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 07, 2002 at 12:55:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've only just seen your post, which deserves a proper reply. Actually, Carlos, I did read the whole quote, but was relating more to the inference I picked up from this particular remark which preceded it: 'Can other ways work? Clearly 'Yes' for other things than what his initiation and subsequent use of the kryas as he instructs does, probably 'Yes' for a more limited form of God-realization.' Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as if you are saying here that other ways may be able to get you somewhere, but not all the way, which to me is saying that Maharaji's Knowledge is, as far as you're concerned, the one true way. OK, later on you say that you haven't tried all the other ways, and in your post above you describe all the ways you have tried, which didn't get you 'there'. But I'm sorry, Carlos, but don't be naive. Christians can be as totally certain as you that they have found the way to God, as can Moslems and many other believers of different persuasions. The experience may be subtly different in all sorts of ways but the certainty is the same. I have a Christian friend who is utterly certain that she has a direct line to and an experience of God. She is as doggedly certain as any premie. Who are we to say that her experience is somehow lesser? And if we feel that her experience is somehow lesser, in what way are we not arrogant? We are not inside their experience any more than they are inside ours. Someone posted a while ago from the point of view of a 'sannyasin'. He said they always felt they had the one true way and that the premies' experience was somehow lesser. In eloquent fashion you describe all the methods and ways you tried before receiving Knowledge. Presumably none of them worked for you in the way that Knowledge has, but can you not see that this may well be because Knowledge has satisfied something peculiar to yourself and that this doesn't mean it's the universal one true way to God? Other people have tried Knowledge and other methods and found that one of the other methods has worked for them, and not Knowledge. So your inference that Knowledge is the only way, even though you attempt to disguise it by appearing in one sentence to be open-minded, speaks for itself, and, I'm afraid still speaks of the same arrogance I referred to before. Or closed-minded certainty - take your pick. Livia

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Carlos - To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 01:04:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It does make more sense to infer the kind of arrogance you ascribe to me from that part of my post, Livia. Again, all I can say in response is that what I was doing, and seeking to convey, is that M is the only Master, and K done his way is the only path, that I can affirm. I thought I made that clear by not only talking about the fact that I have only tried a tiny percentage of the paths available AND bringing up the fact, hardly EVER addressed by people trying to put other Masters/paths than their own down, that the reason M was the first one that worked for me could very well have been about me, or something in my aproach, and not about the other path or Master at all. Obviously I didn't convey that to you. And for my part in our miscommunication, I apologize.

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Livia To: Carlos - To Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 14:40:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Carlos, An honest and straightforward response from you, which I appreciate. So what you're saying is that although you've tried a number of paths and methods, they add up to only a fraction of what is out there and presumably available. Knowledge was the first one that worked for you and this could well have been for reasons personal to yourself and not necessarily because it's the only way. It's good to hear you say that, and you're right: it's rarely said by people trying to put other Masters/paths than their own down. If more premies genuinely felt that they follow this path because it works for them and not because they think deep down it's the only way, I really don't think exes would have anything to argue with them about - not on the subject of Knowledge anyway. But having been a premie myself for 30 years I do know what is implicitly felt (not necessarily admitted). I know it's not kosher these days to go around saying these things, but the premies I'm still in contact with still believe it - very much so; and I have no reason to believe they're unrepresentative - they pretty much cover a demographic cross-section. And I think this is the attitude that has been the most damaging to premies' lives, whether they're able to recognise it or not. Loaf wrote a very good post recently on F7 about the smugness that is engendered by premies thinking they are on the one true path, and the potentially unhealthy separation this sets up between them and the rest of the human race. Yes, I know premies these days tend to have many friends without Knowledge, and feel they are treating them equally, which I'm sure they are, on the outside, but deep down, where it really, really counts, how does a premie see a non-premie? As someone who doesn't know what they know? As someone who doesn't really have access to the ultimate truth? As someone who is always searching, whereas the premie has found? I was with a premie the other day, a well-respected, active premie, who kept talking about 'the premies' as if they were an exclusive, somehow elite group of people, and it's just not healthy. And yes, there is a sort of smugness there which is sad to see, as he is basically a very nice person. He seems to be living in a sort of bubble and to be honest he doesn't even really seem particularly happy. Although I'm fully prepared to admit I could be wrong - it's just an intimation. But to say what you just said tells me you see that it's arrogant to carry the belief that you have the only way - even to suspect it leads to a sort of fundamentalism, a fixed belief system and an elitism that ultimately separates - even when the original experience was supposed to be an experience and not a belief, and something that united rather than separated. I hope I've been making sense and that this has been relevant to the original point. All the best, Livia

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Carlos -To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:08:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It seemed relevent, and made perfect sense, to me, Livia. And your rephrasing of what I was trying to say is right on the money, so we are clearly on the same page. (Isn't that 'rephrasing' trick a great communications tool?) I don't know what the majority of premies think; I'm only in regular contact with a few these days. But one premiue, M, has always seemed, to me, to warn against that kind of coceptual or belief. Now, I know you don't see it that way. But I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm just telling you how it seems to me, how I've heard what he said on the issue in front of me when speaking to others, when speaking to me as part of a group and, once, when speaking just to me. I've seen the phenomenum you describe, Livia. But not just in premies and fundamentalists. It seems to be human nature to go 'because I'm part of this group, this community, I'm better than outsiders'. I've seen exes do it,in a 'I'm better than the poor deluded premies' way. I've seen AAs do it, not just about drunks/addicts not in recovery (which you'd kind of expect), but about what we call 'normies'. But it is a part of our nature I think we need to watch out for and uvercome if we can, IMO. I'm not sure if 'arogance' is the right label for it. But whatever it is, it ain't pretty. Speakijg of appreciation, I always like it when an ex treats me as a human and doesn't let my being the unrepentant bhakti that I am serve as an excuse to revile me. I just wish more exes were willing to do that.

Subject: Re: any other path From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 07:45:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'In the land of truth there are no paths..' quote, I believe, from Krishnamurti. In the 'unambiguous' Glastonbury satsang M is really clear that Knowledge of God cannot be obtained by sects or religions; so then what is knowledge in the sense he meant it? The techniques? we all know now how freely avaible they are, and indeed are available in some form from SRF (Yogananda's Mission) and in India probably from many teachers. (Btw, I wonder if Sat Pal's initiation is the same?) We also know how it seems the techniques conferred by Shri Hans may have differed subtly; there was a posting here someplace by a man who recieved K from one of the 'old' Mahatmas of SH and there were more than 4 techniques(this was back in the 60s I recollect). The implication was then, that some kind of revelatory experience is conveyed during the process of the K session, and in the days when mahatmas or instructors revealed K, then what was the medium that imparted the experience if M was not physically present? We believed at the time that M had a power as 'Satguru' to awaken that inner experience of the 'eternal self' through some kind of transference which was God-given and beyond the comprehension of the intellect. So how is it explained nowadays in the light of 'revisionism'? anybody know? Perhaps that what Krishnamurti meant, you couldn't follw a path to enlightenment, but an enlightened being could illuminate another soul. Or perhaps he meant that the very idea that there is a state we have to attain, and we need a path to attain it, prevents us from experiencing things as they really are in the present, which is our real illumination to discover that WE are the journey AND the destination. K made sense to me because at tomes it was possible to slow down the mental static and feel a richness of being, with or without the cosmic 'bells and whistles' that were described as the various experiences from each of the techniques. And I can see if you felt full and uplifted by the experience of just really being YOU in the HERE and NOW, then you would feel a sense of gratitude for being shown that. For me gratitude is spontaneous, you can't fake it and you certainly can't make it mandatory. But didn't the emphasis go away from that, to a browbeating style of messianic hinduism riven with pressure fear and anxiety. I ceased to be relaxed about knowledge within 5 of 6 years or so. It all got so heavy; meditation just became at times like another stick to beat myself with....shame ,I used to love it in the beginning. It wuz a blast! :) :) :) AV

Subject: To AV From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:46:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The quote is;-, 'The Truth is a pathless land' I met Krishnamurti in Hampshire in '71-lovely soul. With regards to tne techniques;- SRF is the best development of K, but know this- Sarupanand gave only 2 techniques. Light and Music combined (like SRF) plus Holy Name. Hans added Kechari Mudra-which I love.

Subject: Re: To Falcon. From: AV To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 02:38:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falc, thanks for the info, very useful; did u talk with K in 71? Have you got any idea how K is presented/explained today? BTW;I listened to a tape of Yoganada, his last address before he died I believe. A very interesting and enjoyable discourse. Did you see the Glastonbury clip? How u r well. AV

Subject: Re: To AV From: The Falcon To: AV Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:32:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: No I didn't speak to him much, just one introduced among many. He is presented through the books of his discourses, there is a particularly interesting conversation with the mathematician, David Bohm but I can't recall the title. Re; Glastonbury Fayre video-I have seen it many times. The biggest cheese in Kriya Yoga was in Archway, London recently, his name is S.S. Ramaiah.

Subject: Re: Supreme arrogance From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:45:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is god-realis(z)ation anyway?! Is god a long haired hippy, primomordial energy, my breathe, .....? Who gives a damn? Lots of love to you Liv Thorin

Subject: I think that's what keeps a lot of them hooked From: gerry To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:43:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This idea of the supremest path. Wonder where that came from, huh?

Subject: No, it's not a joke... From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:28:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm moving to Anyboards software. Hang in there during the transition. Dave, I don't know why you can't register and log on. Chuck, thanks for your comments; This is like the Rolls Royce of forum software, compared to hotboards (which is like a '69 volkswagon beetle, with rust). The options are almost overwhelming. This has very fine possibilities. I approve Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: Re: No, it's not a joke... From: Scott T. To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 08:13:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I keep getting a message that I haven't filled in the name field, which of course I have. Is a password required?

Subject: to the maharaji watch web directory From: can you add that forum 8 To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 04:48:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Rolls Royce of forum software? From: NowayDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:11:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bollocks gerry, you must be in desperation mode. That is el cheapo crap. It's the clunkiest most cluttered and crude HTML I've ever seen. I guess you've succeeeded in one thing though.... If you gather the sheep and herd them into that hotch potch of crazy onscreen sprites then you've .... guaranteed them a Doc free Zone! :) If you're serious about getting a good forum up and running, here's a tip....don't get anything written in less than XML code.

Subject: But it's awfully designed From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 06:24:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you checked out proboards? Admittedly having the chat room is cool, and pm's are a must on a decent forum, but gerry the design of that forum is disgusting. And the profiles are so limited. But you've probably already made your decision, ahh well, democracy rules as usual ;) There are also loads of other good forums available, much better look and feel.

Subject: OK How about some help then. From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:50:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole point of this exercise is not to make a bunch more busy work for myself-I've got so much work to do on the 'outside' it's not even funny- but to improve things on the X board, give people more options and make a more of a friendly 'community' feeling. If there are so many better formats out there, why don't you investigate and recommend one or two? And PS: Democracy would rule if anyone EVER bothered to vote...

Subject: Re: OK How about some help then. From: Scott T. To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:27:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And PS: Democracy would rule if anyone EVER bothered to vote... But the real mystery is why anyone does. The odds that your vote will have an impact on the outcome are so miniscule, the issues so distant, and the agenda so pre-ordained, that voting behavior really *is* a mystery. It's like everyone turning out on the appointed day to help the heavens get past the solstice. We do it, but we're *really odd* creatures when you think about it. --Scott

Subject: They will vote even less From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:13:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when they have no choices or chance though don't you think! No sweat, will go through me old forum list and see what I can find, it's a shame proboards aren't doing any free ones anymore, their boards are cool if maybe a bit techy design led for this old school crowd. I'm assuming you want free yeah?

Subject: Re: the voting thing... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:34:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The whole point of the rating posts thing was that if people didn't like a post, they could 'vote' it out of existance by rating it, without running to the FA and complaining that it should be removed. I think that may have had great appeal to Gerry ;). Unfortunately, it seems that many people felt their posts were being 'judged' and didn't like it. But it is those sort of things that need to get sorted out, so the board can get tweaked to be more like people want it to be. This is sort of a 'shake-down' cruise, I think, to get the bugs worked out, to find out what works for people and what doesn't. There are lots of options to explore on Anyboards. Ideally, the forum we end up with will be reliable, not cost too much, and allow people to choose what they want as much as possible, while sparing the FA as much work as possible. I know that if I were hosting this forum, that's what I would want! -)

Subject: Free or not Free, that's... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:17:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... a good question. This Forum 7 on hotboards can cost as much as $100.00 or more a month. They bill $10.00 per 25,000 page views. That is considerabley cheaper than some other forums that might be better. Anyboards forum 8 is free, as is. To get rid of the ad banners means purchaseing a license, etc. Personally, the banner ads don't bother me much, I just ignore them like I do everywhere else on the internet. :) Paying for a forum is not out of the question, but a lot depends on how they bill. Aimoo Boards and EZ Boards billed around $10.00 or $15.00 for every 10,000 page views, so I considered them too expensive, plus I didn't like their design and lack of flexibility. I can't say much more about the budget, since this is Gerry's forum, he handles that, you would have to take it up with him. On F8, I've posted a few samples of other Anyboards, to show the variety of ways the boards can be configured. Have a look, maybe there is a design you will like better 8).

Subject: Ham, the design... From: Chuck S. To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 13:37:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't think the design was all that different, navigating Anyboards F8 is a little different, but you can get used to it quickly, it's not a big learning curve. You mentioned proboards. They are not accepting any new signups at this time. They refer people to something called Suddenlaunch.com. The design of their forums are truely awful. Poster's IP numbers are show, and there is no option to turn if off. I've checked out other fourms like Aimoo boards and EZboards. Didn't like their design, and they were expensive. Can you recommend some other forum hosts worth considering? Anyboards is great! It's layout is the closest I've seen to being similar to hotboards. The controls are very good, it's super easy to upload pics... there may be a few configuration tweaks to work out, but I hope folks will give it a chance. It has the potential to be a very good troll-free forum. Trolls may not be a problem right now, but that could change quickly -).

Subject: I'll check me list chuck From: hamzen To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:25:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re design of anyboards, can recommend a post peter pan design course for yas to catch up on the 20th and 21st c's, :) Techy wise not bad, didn't check whether you can embed flash or not, wish you could do more with the profiles, but the design, yuch, did you attend the billy connolly school of design!!! Apologies to pat too, yeah, tapes were dropping out on one channel on re-listening before sending, having to go through a batch of 25 at the mo, so apologies fort the delay, can't imagine he's too bothered though unlike some people who're giving me loads of grief, if friendly. Ohh to be able to afford decent equipment, ahh well, being an old hippy does have it's other bonuses. You after free or are you willing to pay, limits $ wise?

Subject: Can't see the point - I like it here From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:15:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I must still be a Luddite at heart even with all these new-found computer skills. I just can't see the point of setting up this new complicated sounding forum 8. Why have posts that can't be answered? That means people from LG and all sorts of trolls could come over and start saying stuff we can't argue with. I mean, what is the point? Dammit all, I like it here! I like it here the way it is, and I don't want it to change. If it works, why fix it? Livia, in a bad mood now.

Subject: Re: Can't see the point - I like it here From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 10:04:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree with you Livia. But then again, my computer skills are nill and I've tried to log in to F8 three times to no avail. Which makes me wonder, will it be too hard for old foggies like me when they first come to EPO and then tentatively the forums. I can understand how it would be most appealing for computer wiz kids here, except for that bit about your point in trolls posting. Maybe there is a need for four forums after all!

Subject: I just want this place to stay the same From: Livia To: Vicki Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 00:37:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Agree with you completely. Some of the people who first come here are not very up in computer skills and would be put off completely by a site requiring passwords and lots of know-how. Surely we want a forum such as this to be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. I know I'm being a bit of a stick-in-the-mud but if it aint broke why fix it? Love, Liv

Subject: When does this place close? From: AJW To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:27:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi gerry, I just hopped over to the new forum and managed to post a message ok. When is this place closing down? And who is that woman in her underwear, trying to sell me printers? Anth the forum hopper

Subject: It's my wife tryin' to make a buck From: gerry To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 10:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean my live-in girlfriend. I'm in no hurry to close 7 and I want to work out the inevitables and let y'all get used to it. Once I'm satisfied the new board works, I'll work on eliminating the ads. PS Your post is currently rated a 8.5 at F8

Subject: I don't get the instruction... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, can you email me? sylviecyn@yahoo.com I think I'm logged in but...I have questions...:C)

Subject: i hope webtv can handle it From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:14:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or it'll be more than a joke, It'll kill my ability to be here.

Subject: Well, hell, try it From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:36:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're cranky this morning.

Subject: New Features on F8 From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:08:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Multi-page threaded or non-threaded message board Register and protect your identity with a password Auto fill-in of your name and e-mail address after you login for each session. Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session. The ability to modify your own posts. The ability to delete your own posts. The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts. The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically. Identify new posts easily (by different color) The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field). The ability to add link URLs. Automatic detection and linking of URLs in message body. The ability to add image links. The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts. Posts with an image are so indicated on the main page. Register just once for multiple forums on the same site. Login and password for each user will work for all forums. You can search message body (CPU intensive) as well as subject field for keywords (Find feature) within a date range. You can use the Overview feature to read top level posts (without replies) You will be banned automatically after a setable number of violations :-) Easy access to information. Very readable layout. At a glance of the message line, a user knows whether the post is new (coloring), size of the message, whether it has an image link inside, rating of the message (if enabled), number of replies to it, and the number of visits to it (if enabled). One can also collapse or expand the threading. Where am I? function allows a user to find out where he is among a big thread of discussion. Modifiable user profiles. Registered users can create and modify their profiles and passwords. Rate posts or articles and see stars and vote counts next to them. Detects and rejects 'double rating' on the same page. Peer moderation when enabled, posts rated below certain point will not be shown on the main forum. Private discussions between any two registered users. Unlimited number of suveys. Chat room. Many more. Here's the manual netbula.com/anyboard/manual/manual.html

Subject: Re: New Features on F8 From: JohnT To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:59:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts Hmmmm. Am I missing something here? Sorry to be picky an' all, but ain't these here what-do-you-call-'ems supposed to be, uhh, what's the word ... discussion boards? Mind you, I kinda like the idea all the same. JohnT - never answered back again

Subject: John, did you see this? [nt] From: gerry To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 15:58:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/posts/110.html

Subject: Re: New Features on F8 From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 12:20:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks. I linked to the instructions, copied yours, and am going back outside for a drink of sunshine and hope I don't get burned.

Subject: Excite Doc Reunion From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:21:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sir, I'm not really geared up with this electronic stuff and have not organised email adress. Mark has been invalided out of the force, usual pension rights assigned. Maybe a regimental reunion would be in order, it's probably 25 years since the unit disbanded. The records can;t be released for 100 years under the official secrets act. Several members have found it difficult to adjust to life in civvy st. It is likely Mark will attend the forthcoming celebrations in Brighton. If he reports in before then I will forward your message. At ease and get that hair cut. Must go now and polish the brass buttons on my uniform. Private Bolly (retired, with full honours, no pension)

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: The falcon To: Bolly Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:06:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, I hope that you prime Doc to be somewhat surprised when he meets Mark again, I know him as he was in business with some good friends of mine, just pleased he is still intact(?) WPC-what a fucking joke! Military manouveres, lead off church roofs, drug dealing (even then, stolen building materials for Ally Pally stage , complete with quotes from the Bible but John Lindus-what a star! got out very early but not unscathed, thank God! Charles Pennington Leigh? - ask Jeff Stubley! all the best The Falcon (just a couple of mice this time, sorry!)

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: Bolly To: The falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:44:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that, I see Marks partner more often than I see him. She works real hard and perseveres with her lot in life. I doubt that there are any pwks whose lives have taken a dive that don't question how come when they followed the instructions on the bottle things could get so bad. I don't know what your definition of intact is, some times for me it's well I'm still breathing so I'll persevere. For Mark that might be most of the time or even all of it. Just out of curiosity it would be interesting to know how the Pennington Leigh fortunes panned out. Last time I saw them was twenty years ago, in a rather nice house the Home Counties. I'm quite curious to know how far down the food chain the con was operating. My concious questioning of the value of the cult goes back several years and I've not picked up on the gossip rumour/circuit. What happened with John Lindus? I heard something blew up but not the details. The John I knew was an okay guy, is he doing alright? More in sorrow than anger, Bolly

Subject: Re: Excite Doc Reunion From: The Falcon To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:41:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John is now a very successful artist despite having much of his earlier work stolen in Russia. Charles is still in the security business, I believe.(probably the same one he conned from Jeff Stubley)-true!)

Subject: Thanks Boll + Can you fill me in Fal? From: ExciteDoc To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Pvt Bolly, for that info and Fal for the update: I'd love to hear how Mark progressed through the Mire of England's 1970's and 80's. It's true that the directions on the bottle did NOT include 'Lose All Worldly Assests and Credibilty Whilst Pursuing the LIGHT.' :( I can't imagine Mark being anything less than Full On enthusiastic in any pursuit he involves in but I will prepare for a surprise (when nothing would in this day and age) Talking of old service medal comrades, do either of you good soldiers remember Charlie Mcrow? WPC middle rank. Him and I used to play music together until I became jealous of his technical superiority and went into a sulk. I imagine he'd now be a fine middle aged Brit gent basking somewhere south of London on the Thames (which is where I found him in 1986). I believe he deserted or was discharged in the early eighties but I could be wrong. He was a 'Shri' with me for about five minutes in the 70's until the sick feeling of hypocricy put a swift end to our charade. As for nicking materials for the POP, now THAT was more our style ;) As ease men. *****

Subject: It was both him and us From: Peter R. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:46:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was in Paris some years back and visited the Army Museum. There, in a glass case, were Napoleon's grey overcoat and black cocked hat. I immediately felt an energy leap across to me, and felt projected deeply into Holy Name (better than anything remotely experienced in meditation for days). At Rome 1990, after an entirely fruitless first session, perched in a remote corner about a mile from the stage, I took a walk, ending at the Spanish Steps. There was a huge crowd on the pavement. I asked a blissed looking woman what it was about, and she said 'Il Papa'. True to form, the Popemobile trundled round the corner and the mob went ecstatic. I was as blissed out as anyone. The explanation for the Napoleonic experience is presumably that, because I always used to be a fervent admirer in younger days, I automatically tripped at the trigger of his old uniform and manifested deep love for him (the alternative explanation, that it was Napoleon coming through to me seems less plausible..) In the Rome situation, I was caught up in a general group anticipation and exhilaration. (I felt rather guilty about this, but had a good experience with M next day). In the case of videos, however, the reality seems different. I've sat through endless ones which were a total tribulation (coca cola analogies, rolexes, etc.). On other occasions, I was totally transfixed, as Maharaji spoke poetically and beautifully of really meaningful things. I attribute the latter to moments when Maharaji himself was in good form, and the energy was flowing through. I think much of the time he isn't experiencing anything much good himself (consciousness jaded through malpractices, cognac...?). In earlier years, when I had ecstatic experiences, listening to him at Festivals, with tears rolling, I am quite convinced that there was a transference taking place from his heart to mine. Similarly, when we danced with him, it was on a totally different level to the mindlessness I experienced watching Roger Daltry smash his guitar to pieces in 1967. Receiving Knowledge is a real experience, Bris, no matter what the teacher later becomes, or how he hazards his own power by substance abuse. In that session, access to the inner sensory organs was restored to you by a transfer of energy. Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). Though he isn't the Lord, Maharaji is still a master, though a flawed one. He's perhaps one of many who can give the same divine experience. No amount of belief that it's just projection and wishful thinking is going to change that.

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: Anon To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:46:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can some ex tell me how do you manage without holy name, after all these years, or do you still meditate or what. If Maharaji is a sham, and he is, how do we explain the definite powerfull expieriences which we had, Where do we go from here, in my case 30 years down the drain

Subject: To anon From: Peter R. To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 02:05:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can some ex tell me how do you manage without holy name, after all these years, or do you still meditate or what. If Maharaji is a sham, and he is, how do we explain the definite powerfull expieriences which we had, Where do we go from here, in my case 30 years down the drain --- Although we undoubtedly projected many of our own feelings and desires onto Maharaji over all these years, the experiences we had in meditation were very real. Holy Name (or whichever name you give it) is the life source inside. I had various experiences of this before Knowledge, and it is experienced to different degrees, spontaneously or through spiritual practices by many people. I believe that the process of receiving K made this life force more accessible to me, and I believe it to be divine. Whether you follow Maharaji in future or not, you will always have access to that force, should treasure all your various meditational experiences of the past, and (I believe) have trust in the wisdom of the universal creator. I'm following Maharaji now as a flawed teacher. I no longer see guru as greater than God, but God greater than everything, because he created everything, including guru. Nothing is lost. Everything is retained, because I was aspiring to God via Maharaji. All these good experiences ultimately come from God.

Subject: Peter, how do you know this? From: JHB To: Peter R. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 15:01:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, You have had experiences of Holy Name that are mind boggling, but let's face it, our minds can quite easily be boggled. What I have asked here many times, and am now asking you, is, do you have any evidence that what you experience is indeed the 'life force inside'? I notice that you were honest and only believe it to be divine:) This is a serious question, as I have many unanswered questions about my own experiences both before and after receiving knowledge. If this stuff really is the life force, how can we tell? Having been fooled big time once, I really need some corroboration, other than my own perception, for something this big. How can we avoid being fooled by our own minds? John.

Subject: An also the bad ones. From: Sulla To: Peter R. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 08:49:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: To Anon From: The Falcon To: Anon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:34:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have noticed no difference whatsoever, in fact there has been a deepening of being since letting go of all the concepts. (M included) Each one of us is totally responsible for our own experience, however, the whole darshan thing was very catalytic but 'projection' nonetheless. The most charismatic person I ever saw was Princess Diana. She really glowed, much more than Maharaji, why? - because she was loved by millions e.g 'projection' where do we go from here? ever onwards, mate! Love your Life, have the attitude of gratitude and remember to breathe! As Bob Dylan wrote,'you don't need the weatherman to tell which way the wind blows' Th old paradigm of one to many is well and truly over. All the supposed god-men are being exposed as human, all too human. all the best

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: janet To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'it worked because you believed it would'. none of the experiences mitigate the wrongs, the suicides, the abortions, the broken marriages, the abandoned children, the concubines,the unearned millions, the deliberate deceptions, concealments, dishonest revisions, uncaring treatment, et al. none of it.

Subject: You. Cannot. Be. Serious. From: Neville To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:38:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this.' This is an absurd claim. For starters, you are using refs from a 'gospel' that was written centuries too late to be authoritative—-typical premie selectivity. (BTW we have fragments of Mark's Gospel at Magdalene College, Oxford, dated at about 50AD--powerful evidence that it was written early enough to be accurate history.) You are completely ignoring what Christ actually did teach, as recorded in the most authoritative documents we have. This teaching was in no way pantheistic-—it was clearly theistic. He preached against the law of karma (as expressed in the attitude to people's misfortunes). He preached against mantras. (Surprised? See Matthew 6 v 7.) He in no way, shape or form supported reincarnation. And so on. Regardless of whether or not you accept the teachings of the New Testament it is hard to imagine any spiritual teaching further removed from that of Maharaji. It is opposite in all manner of respects. I'm frankly astonished that anyone is still pedalling such a ridiculous claim. Neville

Subject: About gospels... From: Sulla To: Neville Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 22:34:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elaine H. Pagels: The Harrington Spear Paine Foundation Professor of Religion Princeton University Q Today there are people who talk about Q as though it's a gospel. Q, as I see it, is not a gospel, it's a hypothesis. When scholars first began to study the gospels of the New Testament, literarily, they discovered that Matthew and Luke both used Mark as the core, sort of the basic story line that they tell. Because Mark is completely incorporated - 16 chapters - into both Matthew and Luke. But they both also used other sayings, parables, and stories and so forth. And scholars observed that there's a part of the sayings in Matthew that are exactly identical with sayings in Luke. In fact they're identical in Greek. Now think -- Jesus spoke Aramaic. So if you were translating Aramaic, and if I were translating Aramaic, they'd come out different, these translations. So you would only have Jesus speaking identical sayings in Greek if you had a written translation in Greek of his sayings. And so scholars suggested that there must have been, besides Mark, something else written down that would have been a list of the sayings of Jesus, translated into Greek. And they called that 'Quelle' which means source in German. And they call it for short, 'Q.' Nobody ever has found this source written. We can reconstruct it because we guess that there was such a written source, but nobody has seen it, and it certainly in my mind is not a gospel. It's a very good and well-founded hypothesis. If it isn't gospel then what is it? It was a source of the sayings of Jesus, and it's another picture of Jesus. For example, whoever collected the sayings of Q wasn't interested in the death of Jesus, wasn't interested in the resurrection of Jesus. They thought the importance of Jesus was what he said, what he preached. Now other people thought, 'it's not enough to have the sayings of Jesus. You have to tell about his death and his crucifixion and his resurrection, that's the important thing.' Now somebody put that all together and we call it Matthew, and we call it Mark, and we call it Luke. But originally these are probably rather distinct pictures. Read more on Q in this essay by Marilyn Mellowes, and the Atlantic Monthly article The Search for a No-Frills Jesus. home . jesus' many faces . jesus' world . storytellers . first christians . why did christianity succeed? maps, archaeology & sources . discussion New Content Copyright © 1998 PBS and WGBH/FRONTLINE Q is the designation for a gospel that no longer exists, but many think must have existed at one time. In fact, even though no copy of this gospel has survived independently, some nineteenth-century scholars found fragments of such an early Christian composition embeded in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. By putting these two gospels beside that of Mark, scholars realized that when Matthew and Luke are telling the story about Jesus, for the most part they both follow the order and often even the wording of Mark. But, into this common narrative outline, Matthew and Luke each insert extra sayings and teachings of Jesus. And although Matthew and Luke do not put these sayings in the same order, nevertheless they each repeat many of the same sayings, sometimes word for word. Since for other reasons it seems unlikely that either Matthew or Luke could have copied from the other, how can this sort of agreement be explained? The answer appears to be that Matthew and Luke each had two sources in common: the Gospel of Mark and another gospel, now lost, a collection of sayings known only as Q. Q stands for 'Quelle,' the German word for source. Although no actual copy of Q has ever been found, many scholars are convinced that such a document once circulated in early Christian communities. Since it was difficult to get excited about something that did not exist, Q remained a hypothesis that lingered on the edges of scholarly research. But in 1945, a chance discovery in Egypt provided surprisingly new evidence that rekindled interest in the possible existence of Q. Two brothers were looking for fertilizer at the base of cliffs in the Egyptian region of Nag Hammadi, where the Nile bends on its way from Chenoboskeia to Pabau. As they searched, the brother called Mohammad Ali hit a hard object, concealed under the ground. It proved to be a huge earthen jar, closed with a shallow red dish. At first Mohammad Ali was afraid to open the jar, lest a jinn might be closed up inside it. But finally he summoned the courage to break it, hoping that it might contain gold. Out tumbled, not gold, but twelve books bound in gazelle leather. These books would prove one of the most important archaeological finds of the twentieth century. And one of the reasons for their importance is the valuable evidence they provide for the existence of the sayings collection known as Q. These manuscripts, now known as the Nag Hammadi Library, contained a complete manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas. A fragment of this gospel, written in Greek, had been found earlier at Oxyrynchos in Egypt. But it was only a fragment. The text found at Nag Hammadi, although complete, was written in Coptic, which was the form of the Egyptian language in use during later Roman imperial times. On the basis of this text, however, scholars were able to reconstruct the Gospel of Thomas in Greek, the original language of its composition. By this means, they were able to compare its contents with those of writings found in the New Testament. The Gospel of Thomas is very different from the gospels that have become part of the New Testament. It contains no narrative material, nor is there any story of the birth, the life, or the death of Jesus. It consists only of sayings, 114 in all, each preceded by the phrase, 'And Jesus said.' The collected sayings of the Gospel of Thomas are designated by its author as 'the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke.' Some of the sayings from the Gospel of Thomas are very much like those found in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, for example:'Jesus said, 'Come to me, for my yoke is easy and my mastery is gentle, and you will find repose.'' (#90) But others are puzzling: 'Jesus said, 'Become passers by.'' (#42). According to this author, salvation is achieved in the recognition of one's origin (the light) and one's destiny (the repose). And in order to return to his or her origin, the disciplemust separate from the world by 'stripping off' the garment of flesh and 'passing by' corruptible human existence. For New Testament scholars, one of the most interesting things about this gospel is that its author (who calls himself Didymos Judas Thomas) appears to have used sayings from the same collection used by Matthew and Luke. But for this author and his community, the meaning of these sayings was clearly very different. The Gospel of Thomas, therefore, provided exciting new evidence for the existence of an earlier collection of sayings used by a variety of Christian communities. In 1989, a team of researchers led by James M. Robinson of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity in Claremont, CA, began a most unlikely task: the 'reconstruction' of the Gospel of Q. Robinson and his team are accomplishing this by a highly detailed literary analysis of Matthew, Luke, and Thomas. Their painstaking work goes 'verse by verse, word by word, case ending by case ending.' After nearly ten years of work, the results of their efforts are soon to be published as the Critical Edition of Q. The 'recovery' of the Q gospel has stimulated a debate about the nature early Christian communities, and by extension, the origins of Christianity itself. One scholar, Burton Mack, has advanced a radical thesis: that at least some Christian communities did not see Jesus as a Messiah; they saw him as a teacher of wisdom, a man who tried to teach others how to live. For them, Jesus was not divine, but fully human. These first followers of Jesus differed from other Christians whose ritual and practice was centered on the death and the resurrection of Jesus. Their did not emerge as the 'winners' of history; perhaps because the maintaining the faith required the existence of a story that included not only the life of Jesus but also his Passion. Read more on the Q in this Atlantic Monthly article The Search for a No-Frills Jesus. home . jesus' many faces . jesus' world . storytellers . first christians . why did christianity succeed? maps, archaeology & sources . discussion New Content Copyright © 1998 PBS and WGBH/FRONTLINE

Subject: Interesting stuff. [nt] From: Neville To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 09:07:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sulla/About gospels... From: Peter R. To: Sulla Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:39:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your long reply. In that case, what do you make of the section I quoted from the Gospel of Thomas suggesting this may have represented some Knowledge-like initiation? I take an interest in religious history, but I'm an amateur at it, whereas Neville and rgj seem better informed. It's an intriguing point, and I'm quite happy to learn from others.

Subject: Re: Sulla/About gospels... From: Sulla To: Peter R. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 03, 2002 at 00:55:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter, you are going to excuse my English, I have no one to correct it now. I think M is a Master of Nothing. I am one of those who throw the baby with the water and for me is OK, I can't help it, I think it is a natural reaction and I don't feel guilty, even thought it's painful, I rather be honest and not pretend that I believe in something that each time its more difficult to believe for me. Jesus could be my salvation, because while I was believing in M I never forgot him, in my moments of clarity I recognize him in him and wished for that day I could live in that state of consciousness permanently. That was my hope, to reach that state of clarity, because when I found M I was looking for the other one. Months ago reading EPO I realized that they were not the same thing, that the Jesus I knew didn't match the M I was starting to really know. Then I found this stuff about the gospels, and now I realize that while I may never know who Jesus really was, at least I feel safe knowing who M really is.

Subject: Gospel stuff From: Mickey the Pharisee To: Peter R. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 13:21:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm pretty clear that Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge' or any kind of meditation. Whether one sees Jesus as an itinerent apocalyptic preacher, a prophet in the tradition of Elijah and Elisha, a traveling healer, or as a Messiah, Jesus did not teach people to squeeze their eyeballs, stick their fingers in their ears, hyperventilate or drink snot. Jesus taught the evangelon, or good news, of forgiveness of sins and the coming of the Reign of God (or Kingdom of God, or Kingdom of Heaven), a world in which there is no illness or poverty or racism or all those things which make life a 'vale of tears.' Most scriptures of most religions use the word 'light' and it isn't difficult to find the word music, either. This does not mean that they teach the techniques that mahatma or DVD taught you in that dark room. You could go through People magazine and find the words light, music, word, and nectar, too, but I don't think that makes it a spiritual track. I think that M and Yogananda and other gurus put Jesus in their pantheon in order to give credibility to their cults in the West, but that doesn't make it so. The Gnostics used the imagery of light in their scriptures, but that does not mean they taught the techniques we were told were the Knowldege of God. Those who are interested in scholarly works on the canonical gospels might find 'The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus' by the Jesus Seminar very interesting. Also, works by Marcus J. Borg, N.T. Wright, Raymond Brown, William Countryman, Dominic Crossan, and Robert Funk are very good. The magazine Bible Review, published by the Biblical Archeological Society publishes articles on the latest research. If you are interested in information on the 34 different canonical and non-canonical gospels, email me at mgdbach@hotmail.com and I will email you an article from the Bible Review.

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: rgj To: Peter R. Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peter R wrote: --- - Jesus himself gave K, or a form of this: For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son........... Again, speaking new things, still speaking about what is in the heart of the Father, he brought forth the flawless word. (The Gospel of Thomas). --- -- This is selective literalism, a tendency which fundamentalist Christians in particular are prone to. The Gospel of Thomas is regarded as apocryphal, and Xians don't believe that Jesus was giving out techniques of meditation. In my premie days, I confronted a Christian friend withe the Biblical assertion that 'the truth is within'. To which she responded that the correct interpretation was that the truth was within ... reach. The idea that all the originators of the great religions gave K, is I think just a way of providing this modern cult with an impressive pedigree. Words like: light, love, knowledge, truth, are so ambiguous that you could probably make an argument that any philosopher that touched on them was a Master, giving out divine K. Premies used to say that Shakespeare and Socrates were, if not masters, at least God-realized. There are some intriguing arguments that Jesus never existed: 1 . There is no reliable historical corroboration of Jesus' life, or events such as Herrod having 1st-borns killed. 2. Even Christian scholars who believe in the existence of a historical Jesus accept that virtually nothing for sure is known about him. (Except that He was wrong: the world didn't come to an end). 3. The oldest Christian scriptures are the Epistles and Revelations, followed, a hundred or so years later by the 4 Gospels and Acts. (Its unclear whether Acts came before or after the Gospels). 4. The Epistles never talk about the practicalities of Jesus' life (carpenter, teacher, miracle-worker, K-giver, casting out the money lenders from the temple, tried and executed). This is what some new testament scholars call The Silence. Instead, the Christ of the Epistles is more akin to Greek ideas of a saviour spirit than a Judaic king. The original Christian scriptures are all Greek. 5. The idea that a human could be at one with God is sacrilegious to Judaism. 6. The Epistles were sent to already well-established communities throughout the empire by the apostles supposedly within living memory of Jesus. 7. The new testament - at least in translation - has a poetic, literary quality. The texture of the stories of Jesus are identical with that of the parables he tells. It's also full of Midrash - the telling of supposedly real events in sufficiently vague language that they can be interpreted as being consistent with earlier prophecies. This latter, like our friend Peter R's assertions above, is essentially an appeal to the authority of the past: understandable for simple people in pre-scientific times; more suspicious now. Instead, some have argued that Christianity is Greek in original, an offshoot of mid-Platonism, based on a belief in a savior-spirit that comes between man and god in a spiritual realm, and through self-sacrifice enables man to be accepted by god. These ideas were transmitted throughout the Roman empire either directly by believers or indirectly by sophists or other wandering philosophers. There would have been groups of such people in Rome, Alexandria and perhaps even Jerusalem. Perhaps as a way of unifying such a sprawling movement, perhaps in response to cultic tendencies among some Xians to worship figures like John the Baptist (for whom there is some historical evidence, though none for the stories in the Bible), folkloric tales collected in documents such as the putative Q and perhaps the many apocryphal writings, together with myths, superstitions and Jewish prophecies, were woven together into a narrative either by Mark or people he had access to. The other 3 evangelists used Mark to a greater or lesser degree. On the other hand, maybe Plato was a perfect master, too. rgj

Subject: Re: It was both him and us From: Mickey the Pharisee To: rgj Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 17:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, the Revelation of St. John is probably one of the later books in the NT. The Acts of the Apostles was written soon after the gospel of Luke; they are two volumes of one work. The Epistles of St. Paul are the earliest works, but the Johaninne works are later than the synoptic gospels. The epistles attributed to Peter and James are post-gospel. So, first Paul's stuff, then then Mark, Matthew, Luke-Acts, then Peter and James' stuff (although they could be after the Johaninne stuff), then, lastly, the Johaninne stuff (Gospel of John, Johaninne epistles, and Revelation).

Subject: Maturing Gracefully From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:10:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The following was inspired by some poster calling another 'a dried up old hag'. Thought I'd post while I still have unfettered acces to this machine. Silken tressesfloating across the pillow have detached themselves formed cobwebs clinging to the corners under my bed where the dust of dreams is gathered With a stiff brush the hair once rose a gleaming cloud protecting my head containing the sharp thoughts therin A complexion from miss pears has faded miss ugli fruit brought character brilo pads accentuate cross hatching of ideas writ large around eyes and mouth creeping across the forehead I swear I never heard from her this creased and crinkled grey framed creature I glided through life elated, passionate with limitless energy did not look back when she hokked my spring loaded knees with her knarled umbrella Slower now I walk with her she is both wise and interesting Dedicated to all those who are maturing gracefully Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Robyn To: Bolly Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 20:57:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bolly, Beautiful poem, thank you. As with all things I guess, there are some wonderful things about maturing and some things that about it that suck. But you said it so much better. :) Love, Robyn

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Sigmund Freud To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 05:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, you sound a really beautiful person. Also, very funny from other posts. Try maturing a bit disgracefully too - a bottle of schnapps a day, plus the odd younger lover or two.

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Bolly To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 06:56:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Siggy How old are you, the young ones are so frisky it can wear me out. Love Bolly

Subject: Breathless anticipation, Bolly From: Siggy To: Bolly Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 10:32:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Bolly, Been reading your stuff for the last couple of weeks, and decided you're really cool - very wise, and extremely funny. Tell me a bit more about yourself, and we may perhaps meet. Best wishes, Siggy

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Scott T. To: Sigmund Freud Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 08:49:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Try maturing a bit disgracefully too - a bottle of schnapps a day, plus the odd younger lover or two. Not too odd though. Remember Homuth's Rule: 'Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself.' I don't mind maturing. It's growing old that sucks. --Scott

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: AV To: Scott T. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 04, 2002 at 14:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you're only as old as the woman you feel

Subject: Re: Maturing Gracefully From: Livia To: Bolly Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:19:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly that's a beautiful poem, extremely well written and very moving too. Lots of love, Livia XX

Subject: who's gonna be the first in? From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 17:01:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Announcing.... Forum Eight

Subject: How do I sign up? [nt] From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:17:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: How do I sign up? From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 07:31:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum Eight www.anyboard.net/soc/religion/maharaji/index.html

Subject: what the hell for????? From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 01:21:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: what is this being started for? is f7 dying? are we trying to create a still better version of the forum? this the previously stipulated space where so called spiritual ex's can speak without having to watch for shark attacks? is this the hybrid between the secrecy and exclusivity of RE and the public brawling of f7? did i miss some vital vote on the creation of yet another try at a forum that meets everyone's conditions? am I gonna be rejected from this one just like i was from RE when I knocked on that door?am I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? are we gonna put JIm on probation at this one and put him thru obedience school? who's the FA at f8? hey==f8==fate. ooooo wweeeee wooooo...

Subject: Re: what the hell for????? From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 06:22:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I gonna be held up for ridicule like i was on f7? probably :)

Subject: Hey Janet... From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:25:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you know there's a 'disallow replies' function on the new board?

Subject: If there were a From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 08:57:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: disallow replies from specified people - that would be the ticket.

Subject: Here's something as good From: gerry To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:11:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, a registered user can set up his/her profile to ignore posts from certain posters. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm sure it works. This means posts from 'Nasty Nate' or whomever you've placed in your 'ignore' file, would not show up on 'your' version of F8.

Subject: Jesus you pull these stunts:::: From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :::at2 in the morning: later:

Subject: Walks on water From: gerry To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 18:39:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it is cool software and I've put many hours into it and I don't know all the ins and outs and there's room for a lot of improvement. So if anyone want to be part of the 'beta version' please do so. I'd like to switch the conversation over there as soon as practical and I'd like everyone to have the time they need to get familiar with the format and the 'possibilites.'

Subject: It won't let me log in From: Sir Dave To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 02:43:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Everytime I try to it just redirects to an error page.

Subject: Re: It won't let me log in From: Vicki To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 04:16:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So is it a joke?

Subject: Closing of Maharaji's Ashrams -- 1983 From: Divine Times Reporter To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 15:34:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Following is an interview with a long-term ashram premie about the way in which the ashrams were closed in the USA in 1983. More demonstration of what an uncarring asshole Maharaji is: ...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering. There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given. I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely. One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram. Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off. The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt. When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others. Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc.? It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt.[On their credit card, or the debt was in their name, even though the debt was taken out to support the ashram or Maharaji personally, like for his plane. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this? I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame. When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him. I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else. That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.

Subject: Closing of Maharaji's Ashrams -- 1983 (About the Above) From: Joe To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 09:15:27 (PDT) Email Address: kevjo@mindspring.com Message: Hi guys, The above interview was from a Forum exchange a couple of years ago. Those questions came from me, and the person responding used to post quite often (and very thoughtfully) under the name 'G.' 'G' was a fellow long-time ashram premie from one of the ashrams I lived in. The interchange is already in the 'best of forum' index on the EPO website. Just to add a couple of things to what G said. I also recall that the general chronology was as follows: 1. Up until at least 1980, but especially from 1977-1980, Maharaji made it very clear both in ashram meetings and to the initiators that every available student (premie) of his was supposed to surrender completely to him by living in his ashrams. Many community premies were pressured to give up all worldly pursuits and move in, and many did. I have always thought that part of the motivation for this was the insatiable desire Maharaji had for money (which the ashrams provided to him), and because he needed slave labor for his 'projects,' the most notorious of which around this time was the Boeing 707 plane project. Maharaji desired that palacial plane like it satisifed some kind of pathological need. Then, in a fashion reflecting the spoiled child he actually is, soon after the millions were spent and many premie lives disrupted and damaged, he got bored with the plane and wanted a different one. 2. Around early 1981, at least in the States, the 'ashram purge' happened. It was pretty brutal in my recollection. There was no indication that the ashram was anything other than the centerpiece of devotion to Maharaji, just that you had to be REALLY dedicated to be there. As with anything else in the Maharaji Cult world, it was the most dedicated premies who took the brunt of this abuse. Like Patrick and others said, if you had money, if you had connections, if you were a 'famous premie,' or if you just had the hubris to fend for yourself, you were not purged. 3. Sometime later, like by about the middle of 1982, apparently because not enough of the riff-raff moved out (not surprising, considering that Maharaji had scared us shitless about doing so in numerous of his ashram meeting diatribes), the ashram caste system was established whereby there were 'elite' ashrams and 'other' ashrams. I recall in San Francisco, Sally Reeder organized this, and a new ashram was set up and only the 'elite' (also in this case the most dysfunctional) premies were invited to live there. (I was not invited being considered too 'worldly.') This ashram was supposed to be, laughingly, for 'propogation.' That ashram fell apart in a few months and no aspriants later, I was told, because the premies who lived there fought with each other like dogs and it became quite unbearable, despite Sally Reeder's unearthly sweetness. (At the time, I and the other 'unworthly' brothers in the 'other' ashram had a good laugh about that.) 3. Then began the 'loosening' I would say towards the end of 1982. I do recall I gave up housefather duties and we started handling our own money. I was on my way out by this time, and I don't recall much about it. David Smith introduced this, and despite the fact that the guy had serious mental problems, he did seem to have at least some awareness that he was now encouraging people to move out of the ashram and to 'be more normal' (as IF he would have a clue about that), in direct contradiction to his Nazi-like ashram inquisition about a year earlier. One wonders if Mr. David Smith ever thinks about that these days, and whether the discussions of his abysmal behavior towards ashram premies that have been made public here have made it back to him. But most ashram premies did not move out despite the cult leadership (but NOT Maharaji) encouraging people to do so. Why? Well, because of Maharaji. Most of us recalled that in 1976 the cult leadership, including people like Barbara Kolodney and others who were now Initiators, encouraged people to move out, and then in 1977 Maharaji said it was all MIND and the DLM leadership was confused by doing too much thinking. So, deja vu, right? Because Maharaji failed to take any responsibility for this, people were even more conflicted and confused, just like G said. 4. I left the ashram and the cult in March 1983, with my clothes and nothing else, never to return. Sometime after that (like about 6 months later), the ashrams were closed, but I wasn't actually around for that, and so that's why I asked G those questions. We do know that there was no preparation, no counseling, no explanation, and Maharaji stuck the ashram premies with the debts. It's clear that Maharaji and many of the premies, especially the former ashram premies who are still in the cult, and many who aren't, have selective amnesia about this period because it is particularly painful and difficult to explain. Erika Andersen tried to do so, but then she split, taking her ridiculous article on this subject with her, as soon as people began countering her with actual facts. Better just to repress it, right? And Glen Whittaker, in one of his more ignorant and clueless comments in that memo that John MacGregor posted, acknowledged that former ashram premies are angry at Maharaji about the whole ashram episode, but that it wasn't Maharaji's fault, it was due to those persons 'lack of understanding' (of WHAT, exactly, Glen doesn't say.) Gee, thanks for that Glen. I could also tell from his less than truthful performance in the "Passages" video, that Glen has put on a few pounds and seems to never have gotten around to getting that underbite fixed. But he has evolved to the point where he now LOVES Maharaji, a blissful state which eluded him for many years, or so he says. He has acheived this glorious state of affairs only after overcoming his extremely shameful embarrassment about "loving" Maharaji which was due to the fact that he [Glen} is "a man" and Maharaji is "a man." [The very IDEA!@!!! YEch!] Glen has come a long, long way to overcome this serious problem and get on with falling in love with Maharaji, for which all of us are grateful, and deeply inspired that someday we might acheive that same state of bliss.

Subject: Glen... From: The Falcon To: Joe Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 15:51:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is currently under sedation with whiskey-please do not bother him.

Subject: WHERE IS THIS INTERVIEW FROM?? From: Francesca To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 14:10:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any info would be much appreciated, such as publication (magazine or newspaper, website) and date of publication, if it is a mag or newspaper. Thanks for any info. Francesca

Subject: another similar account From: friendly anon To: Francesca Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 07:28:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To all, excuse my jumping in but it's interesting to hear the different variations of a similar story for the ashram closings. (good question from whence the interview came). As another previsou ashram resident, here's what happened in our ashram as well. The big purge first arrived in our neck of the woods in june 1982 with two instructors who worked closely with m, announcing m's wishes to ‘streamline the ashrams'. It was presented as a ‘request' that any premies who are thinking of leaving, wanting to pursue affairs, or have any doubts about their commitment to m's work (110% was given as the acceptable amount) should leave the ashram. No reasons were given, and in true cult form, no questions were asked as well. The exercise given was to look within ourselves and assess our own commitment levels, and anyone acknowledging any doubts as to the extent or purity of their devotion/commitment were encouraged to leave. At that point, about one-third including yours truly gladly left. I pitied the ones who remained, who were willing to repress/disacknowledge any doubts and remain an ashram servant despite them, tightening their resolve on their subtly-forced devotion. I had suffered enough because of that kind of self pride and idiotic determination to serve. It was a wonderful relief to free myself. For that different drum reason I felt more of a success at joining normal society! This was the same era (early 80's) that the push to present ourselves as more normal members of society also appeared, although I can't remember exactly first when, in various service coordination meetings. An early revisionist approach it was as we were conditioned that it's no longer kosher to use hindi terms like satsang or darshan, or sing songs like 'the lotu has come to us this day'. The reason given (or in more correct cult terms, ‘understood') was this was in order to make m's message more palatable and relatable to modern western society, to simplify the message and present it just as a beautiful experience without the religious trappings. (but doesn't that just make it a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing!) Premies still thought of you know who as you know what and the guru worship and flow of monetary donations kept rollin'. still to this day -- the song remains the same. (actually in lesser amounts due to the dwindling number of active premies). Then in december of 1982, all remaining ashram residents (AND previous residents who had left earlier that year) were finally made aware that the ashrams will all be closing for good, and the reason was their financial infeasibility. Again, in true cultlike form, no further explanations were given. and no questions were asked as it was already known that our two ashrams were both debt-laden. Even though the ‘civil silent blame' placed the culprit on big spending by ashram financial officers*, it was autocratically decided (again in true cultlike form) to simply divide the debt equally amongst all current and previous ashram members ($2000 each in our case), despite wide variances in individual income and despite the fact that a third had already left the ashram half a year earlier. A handful of fellow residents were very hurt and silently slipped off the knowledge scene altogether. Some of us felt a bit burnt, but glad to move on with our own independent lives, while still practising. But it's really amazing how, for the most part, lack of information as to what had really been going down, the ultimate reasons behind it, and unquestioning trust, allowed the absurdity, dysfunction and unfairness of all this to fly right over so many heads. and for SO long thanks epo (even though you're a bit late, better late than never) *ps: no doubt the biggest part of that spending was donations to you know who

Subject: Franny, see my post, above (nt). From: Joe To: Francesca Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 16:20:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: Pat W To: Divine Times Reporter Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 05:13:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just wanted to say that my memory of the closing of the ashrams at that time is EXACTLY the same. I don't know who wrote this but this is indeed a very accurate account of what happened. I was starting to doubt my own memory under the pressure of the current revisionists. So thanks - whoever you are. I was a victim of the Great Ashram Purge too. I believe Dick Cooper was the UK co-ordinator, in charge at the time , and I recall being sent to Newcastle ashram (from London) where I was sort of being tested to see if I was one of the 'Elite'. Newcastle ashram was considered a fairly tough regime where no doubt I was supposed to 'crack' under the watchful eye of 'Big Frank'. I obviously failed the test because I was given the boot after some months there. The whole ashram system was riddled with hypocrisy and questionable ethics. It was hard work crediting Maharaji (who one believed was a virtuous person) with being the designer and orchestrator of this mess. In fact by then he was singularly quiet and lacking in input on the ashrams - certainly not the screeching dictator who had a few years earlier been urging us to join and who was advertising the place as being His Shelter and the thing he cared about most. What bullshit that was. His lack of input indicated that he wanted to quietly back out of his responsibilities about the ashram. By that late stage I think the rules had been bent (relaxed) by almost everyone. Certainly the co-ordinators (Frank and Dick Cooper included) pampered themselves in a way that may not have been considered fair earlier on. I personally was very into the idea of becoming more 'normal' and responsible since I was under no doubt by then that the strict rules and 'chain of command' was a travesty of any kind of healthy spiritual environment that we once had aspired to. I also deemed that it was not helpful to serving Maharaji to be the uptight, loser type breed of ashram premie I saw around me. I had started to get work again as a session musician which I had before been encouraged to abandon because it was considered to be inappropriate to get a job which you liked as you'd be 'attached' to it. So my independant thinking got me booted out I guess. I just figured that I'd rather think for myself and do my best at earning money than be on the dole in Newcastle. At the time I assumed Maharaji knew what he was doing and I was quite shocked when I heard that he had admitted that it had been a 'mistake' and an 'experiment'. I felt pretty depressed that the best years of my life had been sacrificed to a failed experiment. When I later learned how remote Maharaji was from actually having any concern for us and how he actually was really completely preoccupied with his own extravagant and rich life I was appalled. It still hurts to think I was duped into thinking I was surrendering to his care and love. In reality there was none there. He was not the loving Lord I'd imagined. From then on (after I had been chucked out) I basically didn't listen to premies ideas about what I should do - and started keeping the money I earned so as to build some kind of life for myself. I was 25or 26 at the time. Fortunately my mother took me back in (my father had died) and I had a roof over my head. But basically I had to start from scratch as I'm sure we all pretty much did. Maharaji never addressed the subject as he rightly should have done. I absolutely concur that he initially was totally responsible for giving out the message that all single premies should move into the ashram. This was around 1977-8 I think. He should have held a meeting for all those people who had given their lives to him - and offered them explanation and apology. That is what he should have done. But he didn't. Instead he sought to shun responsibility and to brush the matter under the carpet. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. Exactly. That was the most honest thing he let slip ( for this comment of his about it being 'a failed experiment' was never official as far as I know - it was more of a famous rumour). The fact that he has never made any public reference to this 'failed experiment' confirms that he is embarrassed to be seen as someone who makes mistakes. He wants to maintain his 'trustworthiness' after all. His lack of concern for the ashrams - his abandonment of them really - was the single thing that alerted me to the horrific fact that he could not be trusted. He had once established a team of Instructors- championed by people like David Smith - who travelled around the world laying on his demands in the most intense way imaginable, that we should surrender our lives in the Ashram. I just cannot believe that now people have so widely blotted the memory of this period of insanity out of their lives- or don't want to look at it - perhaps preferring the 'reformed' Maharaji. He might be reformed but he has not paid for his mistakes. He needs to be made to account for his past evils somehow. One other thing I wanted to comment on about ashram life - which ties up with Mike Finches open letter to M - is the fact that there was a contradiction in the ashram generally, about being humbly surrendered to doing whatever you were told and on the other hand, maniacally trying to claw your way into any service which took you out of the humdrum provincial ashram rota, and closer to Maharaji himself. Ashram premies were riddled with ambitions in this area. I held to my principles on this matter and assumed that whatever I was told to do - however menial- was as graceful a gift from Maharaji (God) that I could get. So I was appalled to observe the lengths that most ashram premies went to, to scrabble their way to do 'better' more direct service. That was where a lot of manipulation, back-biting and plain greedy selfish behaviour was manifest. It was ugly. Devotees jostling and treading on each other without concern and in a most hypocritical manner was apparently acceptable to Maharaji. He almost played on this and teased people about it - giving them Instructor forms to fill in etc. I tried to avoid being so 'career' oriented - I guess I still had my old Christian morals, and consequently sunk to the bottom of the desperate writhing heap. So I learned from this that, far from people's rise to prominence or favour being a 'blessing', it was quite clearly due to their own ambitious efforts most of the time. This took the form of pathetic gopi-like girls writing endless tear-stained letters - filling in applications to be instructors - and such-like. You know, Maharaji made us fawn and fight for these 'services'. I never did though. Later on, ironically, when I started to get successes as a musician through my own considerable efforts and not through 'Grace' etc. I was 'noticed' by Maharaji's organisation as being of some use - and actually became quite involved in the Elan Vital productions to the degree that I got to meet Maharaji and all the stuff that being a humble devotee had never before resulted in! I liken the Ashram situation to M being like a Master of a pack of dogs who he kept penned up where their natural insincts to run wild and free were curtailed. So here are these dogs who basically are so desperate to get out and have a good time (like nature intended) and yet whose 'training' means that the only good time they can anticipate is when their 'Master' singles them out one day for the hunt or whatever. And what do they do mainly in their pen? Why, jostle for favour of course - and that can get pretty ugly. So Maharaji's attempt to control us in the ashram in the way he did was actually a really wicked thing. He worked extremely actively to coerce us into that situation (NB. in all the ashram meeetings / Instructors conveying his Agya about this far and wide) and yet when we were all there, he played no real active part - showed little care for the suffering of inmates and abandoned us to this fate until it suited HIM to distance himself and relinquish responsibility for it all - ie when his naive ideas about it all had, quite predictably, gone wrong. He had allowed the ambitious ones who fawned the most to rise to prominence and generally succeed in their ambitions to the cost of the more humble to whom such cringing hypocritical ambition was anathema. This is not the behaviour of someone with any real care or character - let alone a Master of Perfection. Let's face it - he didn't know what was going on and he didn't care. His behaviour was simply evil. He did an evil thing to put people through this stuff with such callous disregard. Shame on people who don't learn from this or who condone his behaviour.

Subject: Pat W, did you sign a contract? From: Vicki To: Pat W Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many ex ashram ex premies talk of signing a contract. I personally never had to, but then our ashram was not quite sanctified before it disbanded. So this has me wondering, who was breaking the contract? Well, obviously Maharaji was. But if he pulled the typical corporate ploy of not directly commenting on it, then he couldn't be sued if ashram residents left on their own accord. Of course that 'accord' was the heavy hand of those bullies he let loose to 'pursuade' people to leave, under the guise of agya. That's why, imo, he never will comment on it. Can you imagine the litigation it could open up in places where there in no statute of limitations on abuse?

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: PatD To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 13:31:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, & the division between the ashram premies & the rest is also proof of his total lack of any sort of mastership. One in the spirit,what a joke.I always had a big problem with being regarded a 2nd class premie(maybe it was more in my mind than in other's)because I never could take that step. The people he sucked up,used,& spat out have been airbrushed out of history.Those he spurned in those days are the ones now sitting at his feet. It stinks out loud.

Subject: It wasn't in your mind, Pat D From: Vicki To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 00:36:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are absolutely correct. I was hounded constantly to join the ashram. Relentlessly. If one wasn't in the ashram, then one really wasn't considered of worth. I remember a time in Oakland that some moms started a 'Mother's Ashram' and an initiator said to us 'What a joke.' The pressure was unbearable.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: The Falcon To: Pat W Date Posted: Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:17:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post, Patrick, not my experience but it does confirm that of many. As an aside, while you were enduring this travail Dick Cooper (before he dicks you, as the joke was at the time)was out shagging anything wet and warm (ashram, non-ashram, married, you name it - sorry her)and left a trail of broken hearts to complement his tyranny. In mild mitigation, I never have understood that sexual suppression malarkey, just oozes out the sides.

Subject: Re: This was quite simply evil behaviour. From: Moll of Mole To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 01:33:17 (PDT) Email Address: mollofmole@loveable.com Message: I notched up a few instructors and coordinators in my time and Dic was certainly one of them. He was a pretty down to earth kind of guy, just loved having a good time and could not see what all the fuss was in the spiritual side of things. He knew how to please a woman. Interesting thing is that if you talk to premies today about the ashram stuff they say that it was 20 years ago and things have changed. Which just is not true. My current boyfriend is a premie and went thru the whole training bullshit , if you had not been to one then you were not as good as the people that had. If you were promoted to a honcho you had to go to a training to understand the new knowledge, same old stuff but different rules. The training thing just fell apart because his guruness could not see that he was still the problem and blamed every one else. The new form of manipulation is the smartcard. If you have not got one of them then you do not get in. With that thing you know where someone went , how long for,etc. This will keep the guru happy for years controlling is flock and no one will get it. Sick really Moll of Mole

Subject: Jim Jones required ID Cards... From: Cynthia To: Moll of Mole Date Posted: Tues, Jul 02, 2002 at 12:33:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This stepped up security is something very creepy. Jim Jones and The People's Temple required ID cards for their meetings which were not open to public. But that was just the tip of the iceberg of chaos.