Subject: please From: the Falcon To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 10:57:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: walk me through the steps of posting on the new forum as 3 times have been unlucky and very frustrating. not computer illiterate if informed (k.i.s.s.)

Subject: god-men? From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 10:54:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just attempted to post twice on the new forum and got bounced both times. So,replying to the Sai Baba post over there, I just wanted to say that I am certain that the reason all these supposed god-men are falling is that the human evolutionary paradigm (excuse the parlance) has shifted from one-to-many on to many-to-many. more instructions on the new forum please or The Falcon will shit on your head.(just kidding)

Subject: To EV monitors From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 08:37:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Please would you put the mother of Stephanie Allison who has posted on Symposium in touch with her daughter? Enough is enough. Do not put your heads in the usual sand on this because before you know it there will be a forum/therapy group for the children of premies (that is the name of the thread, by the way)to further add to 'the master's' already considerable problems. Actually I think that was how the Hare Krishna lawsuit got started and we all know the outcome of that, don't we?

Subject: Bong, bong, bong.... From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:07:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, It's past midnight and I haven't changed into a pumpkin yet! Anth the Turnip

Subject: It's time someone started another forum From: Sir Dave To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:14:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I mean, nobody's started a new forum for at least four hours and it's getting boring with just two Symposiums, five Ex-premie forums, including two Forum 7s, a Forum 8 and a Forum 9; not to mention the three neither premie or ex forums and also the two premie forums... Will someone please fill this glaringly obvious void?

Subject: Oh , this place is still here:) From: Dermot To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:38:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was at the other forum 7 in the alter-universe where it resides...and couldn't get back here. Over there I was linked to Symposium (the one on the astral plane) and somehow got back to the other Symp and from there to here......now what's needed is a GUIDANCE FORUM so everyone knows where they are :) ...and thanks to your efforts with various forums over the years too, Dave. -Dermot

Subject: There's TWO forum eights From: Sir Dave To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:56:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just thought I'd let you know. This is quantum forumics gone mad. Thanks for the thanks.

Subject: Dave, you're the man for the job! From: JHB To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:21:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How many have you started in your time?:) John.

Subject: I've started - so I'll finish From: Sir Dave To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:42:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As you know, Hell hasn't frozen over yet. I think my best forum was the Djuro forum. I wonder how many people saw it. Go to Hell www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes

Subject: ooh death just posted there From: janet To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 17:03:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: death just dropped by and left a message for prem pal over in hell. very exciting.

Subject: Yeah, I agree From: Brian S To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 22:56:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Some pretty heavy health commentary, it scared the BeJesus out of me, I was going to have a late night bowl of Fresh Homemade Peach Ice Cream, but I just can't do it now.

Subject: Why I Love Gerry... From: Cynthia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:34:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just spent over two hours trying to get into the new forum site. I appreciate your efforts Hamzen, but I literally could not get into the site.:( Then I came back here to see the very large link at the top of the page. I clicked on it and Gerry's Anyboards forum appeared. Nice bright colors and all set up to go. This is why I love Gerry. He can take the bull by the horns and make something happen. I don't like changes much but that's me. I think we should give it a try. Check it out. It's new and improved since first introduced. Gerry has put up with so much bullshit since he took over this forum last year. He took the bull by the horns and things turned out very well when the previous forum had to pack it up and move. That's what happens when you belong to an anti-cult movement. Backlash happens. We keep on moving and talking. A big new batch of ex-premies showed up and old ones left. Some go back and forth and that's okay too. I appreciate Hamzen's efforts to create that board but I couldn't get into it. Literally. I spent so much time waiting. And getting frustrated. Personalities don't matter with regard to keeping the Ex-Premie Forum movement going. We do need a place to speak to eachother. Of more importance, the ability of fence-sitters to join in the conversation needs to be user friendly. Gerry's made this happen again, let's go... Love, Cynthia

Subject: Singing the glory of the FAs From: Jean-Michel To: Cynthia Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 08:39:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's the only purpose of this thread ...... and that's why it's not locked yet.

Subject: How could I lock this thread From: gerry To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 09:40:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We need more threads like this... :)

Subject: gggrrrr :) From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:55:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You might but im a bit pissed at him tonite, just spent 2 hours finding about these new forum and checking out that their server has problems today come back here to find gerry isnt quitting, ling ever heard of TALKIN yer bugger, gggrrrr

Subject: Re: gggrrrr :) From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 15:43:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm pissed all the time so there! Look just talk to eachother and straighten it all out. Simple.? Love, Cynthia

Subject: uhh cynth From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 16:58:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have e-mailed with no feedback yet, none of us were given any warning, neither jhb or us, gerry made it plain he was finishing, and like now as in yesterday, and he knew I'd got another forum going so that we'd at least have somewhere, and re-started f7 without saying anything again. I don't have a problem with it, was just a bit pissed at the time, but that's well gone, that's part of gerrys attraction for me, he's so erratic at times it's amusing, just might be a little more thoughtful just to think of others when he goes off on one, but hey no big deal, we're hardly talking drive by shootings are we. chill cynth

Subject: Why we all love Gerry... From: The Falcon To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:45:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for all your spectacular effort, you godless communist!!!

Subject: This is why we're NOT A CULT... From: Cynthia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 13:17:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Falcon, When the chaos ends then comes the readjustment. Then comes the settling in and the trolls will be back...they'll find a way. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. This is what happens due to backlash. All this chaos. And aren't we so unsynchronized? There are those of us who don't mind the dirty work. Believe me, I've had my share in dealing with these trolls and for a long time. This is while many of you folks are posting here in peace. I'm a stubborn woman. I don't believe in caving in to non-existent cyberspacial personas. Not when it comes to the issues discussed on this forum. Not when it comes to the cult I was in. Everybody, take a deep breath, we'll be sailing smoothly soon. Hamzen, you're a sweetie. Don't you guys ever email eachother????:):):) Love, Cynthia

Subject: if only From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:00:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: monsieur ling is like this woman I've been trying to get off with for a while now, so TOTALLY in the moment, which infuriating as it is is his charm, nothing lasts for long, good, bad, whatever but isn't it also wonderful to be SO unsychronised!!! my thoughts & my empathy go out to you patty :)

Subject: Re: if only From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 15:22:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: IF only you guys would email eachother!

Subject: message for Falcon From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:04:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Falcon, I got your message down below. Please email me on liviadowte@hotmail.com Love, Livia

Subject: Anyone for fa? new forum set up? From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 03:18:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is anyone else interested in possibly fa'ing the new forum? I might be interested, but no way on hotboards, the anyboards f8 one is a possibility, but with tweaking I think the forum jhb found would much more likely interest me. I like the layout there bigtime, the colours, font sizes etc can be tweaked quite easily, but it would need £35 (sterling)$50 (us) per year to run. e-mail me at hamzen2002@yahoo.co.uk But re a new forum, maybe it's reached a point where the function of this forum has been reached? One of the reasons I like the xmb one is that sub-boards can be set up, and I think we need to broaden this forum. One of the reasons is that premies still have this juju fear thing in their brains that if they leave their lives will disintegrate or lose it in some way and wider discussion will show that this is rubbish, especially discussions of how our lives develp/ed after we left. It would also be easy to set up a sub-board for sprituality/truth as jhb wanted to do, if wanted, or any topic come to that. But I think we all need to discuss this cause of wasting time etc, and the chaos of the last few days

Subject: I've set one up for free From: hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 04:53:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've set this up today in half an hour, colours etc can be tweaked, font sizes etc This forum I'd be happy to administer since I know the format quite well but only on condition that someone else, preferably more than one would be prepared to co-admin with me. We could get rid of the pop-ups and ads for $6.99 per month for 50000 page views If you would be prepared to help pay for this e-mail me at hamzen2002@yahoo.co.uk If anyone shows interest in paying we could set up a paypal account Re the techie problems with all the luddites here it's quite straightforward with simple explanations, so don't panic Please note the features below which resolve some of the problems livia et al had with the xmb board Every Page * Notification of instant messages, greeting, date/time * Navigation menu bar (text, image, or combination format) * Forum navigation links or text (index/category/board/message... etc.) Forum Index * Stats including: newest member, total members, total posts, most recent post * Graphical alert of new messages in each board * Date/member of latest posts in each board * Name of board moderators * Ability to mark every post in the forum 'as read' * Options not accessible to guests are 'hidden' for them * Flat text or javascript fading news, with UBBC enabled Topic Index * Graphical alert each new or updated topic * Date/member of latest posts in each topic * Names of the board moderators * 'Jump to' box for instant jump to a different board or category * Ability to mark every post in the board 'as read' * Options not accessible to guests are 'hidden' for them Topic Display * Number of reply on each post * Author information, such as email, # posts, membergroup, IM links and userpic * Option to view profile of authors * Ability to quote messages or reply * Date of each post listed * User/Moderator ability to delete or modify posts * Option to display a 'printer-friendly' copy of the page * Option to send a friend the topic Post Page * Easy to use editor-style interface * Option to receive notification of replies * Option to disable smileys * Full 'editor' bar for inserting smileys and UBBC tags * Input field autojump javascript * Full preview ability * Option to receive topic 'notification' * Option to disable smileys Other Pages * Recent posts * XX number of posts by a certain member * Forum post search * Full members list Other Features * Full administration and moderating options * Ability to change settings and template on the fly * Full UBBC code in posts, with error-checking galore * Integrated instant messaging system for member to member communication * Ability to customize the layout colors and CSS via one template * Private Boards in which only certain membergroups can access * Login length options * Delete registered members * Full profile options, including signature, settings, and personal information * Email all registered users * 'Maintenance Mode' for major board administration * Online help for users and admins * Moderator/Administrator ability to move topics * Simple registration form and option to generate random password * Post icons to designate the message type new free ex-premie forum xpremie.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi

Subject: Looks Great (nt) From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:33:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ///

Subject: Re: Hamzen's new forum From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 07:54:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just had a look and at first glance it looks pretty good. I like the separate sections for different topics and it looks simple enough to use. Think in time we'll all be fine over there, so phew! It didn't look to me as if the excommunication forum was really going to be suitable as a substitute F7 and now it looks as if JHB never meant it to be anyway. So to anyone who hasn't had a look yet, I recommend you go over there and try it out. It's early days etc and I'm sure any minor problems can be easily sorted out. Someone posted above that possibly F7 has served its purpose but I couldn't disagree less - an ex-premie forum that's simple to use and easy to post on is an absolute necessity in my view. For people who feel it's served its purpose - fine. That's up to them after all. But there are plenty of people here who still feel a huge need and desire to engage with each other and sort through all this stuff. And there are plenty of lurkers too who may not feel ready to post yet, but probably will in time. And there are other yet-to-be-lurkers who haven't even heard of us or found us yet but soon will, one way or another. So in my view the function of an ex-premie forum of this nature is incredibly important - long may it live! Thanks to Hamzen for creating this new one and here's to lots more posting from all of us! Love and best wishes to all Livia XXXX

Subject: I don't like it at ALL!! From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:30:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Livia and Hamzen, I can't use Netscape Nav. to access that forum--and internet explorer is even slower. It is so slow that anyone who doesn't have a cable modem won't be able to get into it. The pop-ups are terrible. It's much more confusing than Anyboards and the one used yesterday for ex-communication. Excuse me for complaining, but if I had a computer with enough power I'd do it myself. Why not just keep this board for free with banners as Chuck did with Symposium? I know things can be tweaked, but why the different choices of topic boards? Where are we going here with the ex-premie forum? How much longer do we have with this hotboard forum? What happened to the anyboards forum you worked on Hamzen with Chuck? Wasn't that more user friendly? I thought so. Sorry for being a poop about this but it's difficult to cope with a new format every other day. Cynthia~)

Subject: server problems today cynthia From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:48:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: their graphix server is in trouble and they are working on it now I set this one up cause I thought gerry was giving up completely, looks like I was wrong, if everyone is happier with that one I'll be MORE than happy I can assure you personally not so keen on it's set-up, but I'd rather not do admin

Subject: And I can't log in from anywhere... From: Cynthia To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 10:13:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Grrrr. Bye

Subject: you should be able to From: hamzen To: Cynthia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:50:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: , just put in your username and password when you log in, same as if you had cleared your cookies

Subject: addendum From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:04:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your forum has a lot going for it, Hamzen, but please change the colour! The grey is very hard on the eyes and it's positively incandescant when you come back here after a sojourn over here. The grey is gimmicky and in my view unnecessary. Love, Liv

Subject: time to get post modern livia :) From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:44:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: didn't you know grey is the new black, as shallow is the new deep as going out is the new staying in, tut tut time to get out more methinx, :) I'll try it with a lighter grey ok!

Subject: Good one, Ham... From: Cynthia To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 13:19:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...shallow is the new deep as going out is the new staying in... I shall keep this one for future reference...

Subject: Download posts/best of? From: Jean-Michel To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 06:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can you download all the threads, in order to keep them in an archive section of EPO, and save the 'best of' threads ? The whole idea looks great IMO. Anybody can read, and trolls will be under control.

Subject: I'll check on archiving jm From: hamzen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:37:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but even if I cant, it's a new board so they have lots of work to do yet I'll save the best of ones and see about the others

Subject: Re: I'll check on archiving jm From: Jean-Michel To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:18:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, but sometimes the whole thread is worth keeping, and saving one post only won't make it .......

Subject: Re: I'll check on archiving jm From: hamzen To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 14:45:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on my forum the whole thread is one unit

Subject: Re: I've set one up for free From: Thorin To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 05:40:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Hamzen After registering how does one start a new thread? Help says I sould see a button for this. I don't. All I can see is the ability to post a 'new poll' Thx Thorin

Subject: Their graphics server is playing up today From: hamzen To: Thorin Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 12:40:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thats why some of the buttons/gifs are dfisappearing, they're linked to proboards for their graphics and thewy've had no grffix problems in the months I've used them but today maybe gm is more powerful than we thought ha ha ha :)

Subject: Excommunication is dead From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 01:40:13 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: I haven't got time to answer all the misunderstanding and misinformation below so here's a few facts:- 1. I had no intention of taking over the main ex-premie forum from Gerry until Gerry threw it at me. 2. The new forum was intended for the time being to be a plaything for anyone who was interested in playing around with new forum software. I never thought it could take over F7 because the bandwidth on EPO2 wouldn't handle it. My longer term idea was to have a discussion on what is true, but I wasn't holding out that much hope it would catch on. Only Peg and Katie interpreted what I did correctly. 3. I accepted responsibility for the ex-premie forum only because Gerry relinquished it without warning. If you read my post I said for the time being meaning I intended to get rid of it as soon as I could find someone else. Frankly, I am behind with EPO work so it would be absurd to take on responsibility for the ex-premie forum full time. 4. I had no knowledge of the status of the Anyboards forum. Gerry had not communicated with me about it, even when this chaos started, and I assumed that it being on hold meant that he had reservations or problems with it. So, I have shut down Excommunication until further notice, and I intend staying out of any further discussions about forums until things are clearer. Let me know when I need to change the links on EPO. John.

Subject: Clarification From: JHB To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 02:24:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I didn't make it clear, as well as not running Excommunication, I will not be running any other forums for the forseeable future. John.

Subject: to gerry From: Salam To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 18:55:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: tsk tsk tsk. Excommunication ha? tsk tsk tsk.

Subject: No Salam I NOT joining Cat's Coven From: gerry To: Salam Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 19:51:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks for the offer, though... :)

Subject: Satpal in England From: Manav Dharam To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:25:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: See link Salpal in England www.manavdharam.org/news/uk_tour.html

Subject: family business From: Dave Punshon To: Manav Dharam Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 00:20:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: next step a franchise ;)

Subject: WIMPY is already franchised NT From: Jethro To: Dave Punshon Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 03:05:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: sure, he hates his own brother [nt] From: bill To: Manav Dharam Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:36:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What a change !! From: Jean-Michel To: Manav Dharam Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:00:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: BBJ in UK 1998 Looks like 'Man, Know Thyself' is as successful as 'Know who's The Leader' ....... The plastic flowers and Hindu mantras are gone, and he's on a diet. What type of jet is he flying ?

Subject: Re: Satpal in England From: gerry To: Manav Dharam Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:31:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So what did they serve the 'congregation' for lunch? Bet it wasn't up to 'Dining at Daya's' :)

Subject: Re: Satpal in England From: PatD To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:47:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry, Just been browsing a bit below & I'd like to thank you for keeping the show on the road for so long. Seems like it may be becoming a slightly different show,& maybe one not really to my taste,still,whatever gets you through the night. The brass neck of Shri Hans Descendants International inc is beyond belief(pun intended). Maybe I'll write a letter to The Right Worshipful Lady Mayoress of Leicester. Maybe I'll just go on holiday to Ventry Harbour & drink guinnesssssss. Maybe I'll do both. All the best to you & once again,thanks.

Subject: Re: Satpal in England From: Livia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 13:32:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How bizarre it all is. I wonder who the USA and Canada etc delegates are? Perhaps they are old premies who switched to BBJ in 1974! Or else they're new recruits. 'Twould be interesting to find out. I seem to recall that some of those who made the switch in '74 never made the switch back. He'll be calling it 'self-knowledge' next. It's surreal on BBJ's website - absolutely no mention whatsoever of the existence of his little brother's large (though recently dwindling) movement. And of course, absolutely no mention whatsoever on Rawat the Younger's website of older bruv's movement either. Maybe each thinks if they ignore the other, they may go away. Hilarious. Livia

Subject: *** Ex-Premie Forum Status *** From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 00:50:03 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: When I posted the invitation to try the new forum I had no idea that Gerry would immediately announce his retirement. I now realise it's what he needs to do, and yes I am willing to take over for the time being. Whether this is using the software on EPO2 or Hotboards or Anyboards I cannot say. I also cannot do any more work on this until tomorrow at the earliest. So for the time being continue to post here, and please try out Excommunication and let me have your feedback. Gerry, could you put a link to Excommunication at the top of the page? Thanks. We should have some clarity by the end of the week! All the best everyone and thanks for your help and patience. John.

Subject: WHOA NOW ! From: Brian S To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 19:22:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now grab aholt to yer spurs there jest one minute Cowboy, are ya a tellin me that this here trail ride is acomin to a halt. Sheeet..... you ain't agunna let them there jaspers put a burr under yer saddle now are ye. Whall now, I reckon yawl wus about the best dern trail boss I ever seed around these here parts. I also reckon yer about due fer a little break but Imma gonna miss this here corrall so Adios Amigo. Yawl knows ware ta find me, iffin you ever get the notion to saddle up again fer one more ride. Thars still some loose ones that broke offa the herd that need to be rounded up. I shure have enjoyed this here round-up podnur, thank ye, thank ye kindly sir Your old road dog, Brian

Subject: Above post was to Gerry, Sorry JHB From: Brian S To: Brian S Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 22:17:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I got posted it in the right thread, wrong sequence, sorry

Subject: Thanks. Gerry, JHB, et al From: ghost of suchmas past To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 18:04:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: pax et lenticulae...

Subject: 3 cheers for gerry (nt) From: hamzen To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:16:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a

Subject: 3 cheers for gerry (nt) From: Tim G To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 15:24:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: For sure, 3 cheers for Gerry [nt] From: Dermot To: Tim G Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 16:01:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I don't like it and here's why From: Joy To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:04:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1. It's WAY too complicated. After groping around in the dark finally got logged in (registered) but I couldn't figure out how to log out. There are too many steps and layers to it. I (and I'm sure many, many others) like to take a quick dip in several times a day and just peruse the lists and if I have to go through all this rigamarole, won't be bothered. Which leads to reason #2. 2. I think, aside from ex's having fun and communicating and working through their issues, that the MAIN function of this forum is that it is a place where wavering and just-starting-to-doubt premies can take a peek, and lurk to their hearts content while they figure things out. I have several long-time premie friends who fell firmly off the fence by doing just that over several years. And know of many more who lurk on a daily basis. Having to go through all those invisible 'gates' to get on, and interact with the site in any way whatsoever, is a psychological disincentive for people to lurk, and will undermine this main function of the Forum. It's also so difficult to access that many people who currently use the Forum will probably desert (Dermot's already said aidios, and I will probably do the same). While I understand the need for troll patrol, can't we figure out a better way? Won't it be terribly boring without the spice of the detractors now and again? I understand that it's a burnout experience for the FA, and I certainly couldn't do that job and applaud those who have and do, but to reinvent it so watertight that nobody can be bothered seems to me to undermine the entire purpose of the Forum in the first place. It's bad enough that there are so many spin-off Forums now that it's a job choosing where to look when your time is limited, but to make what I consider the central Forum just 'one of the crowd' does a real disservice (pardon the pun) to the many hundreds who want to lurk anonymously and not have to register and go through many levels to be able to do so. 3. It's hard to read the dark blue background, the type's too small and it's just too darn confusing overall. I 100% agree with Livia that if a thing ain't broke, why fix it? Perhaps we could have volunteers for troll patrol shifts, so the whole burden doesn't fall to the FA and make them get burned out? Just my 2 cents, but I feel intimidated by the new format and will have a hard time visiting there, and am concerned for lurking PWKs who just need quick and easy access to this information. Joy

Subject: Simply explained joy, mountains out of molehills From: hamzen To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:14:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and all that You dont have to log out, the colours can be changed by the fa, and you can see all the posts in one thread at once, so it's a lot simpler You can lurk and read without registering and it will be quite easy for the admin to tell people that on the front page You can also change the font size Other bonuses are that you can send private messages to individuals, chasnge your avatar to pass comments on gm etc, and post pics directly The troll isdsue is also way underated, the new forum wont cut it out directly, they could just re-register from another computer and set up another e-mail address, but it will inconvenience them. I cant believe how many technophobes there are here A lot of these things would have been changed by next week anyway, just gerry made his decision so quick

Subject: Tech questions for Hamzen From: Livia To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alright alright I'm a technophobe but 1 What's an avatar? 2 How do you view yesterday's posts? 3 How do you view them all in a long list like you can here? 4 How can you tell which is a new post like you can here? 5 Does it have a way of telling you you've already read a post, like it does here? 6 Sorry so many questions but I need help!!! Love, Liv

Subject: some answers From: hamzen To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 17:55:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1 What's an avatar? The pic of me as a sprite and the maharaji message, the animated gif, is my avatar 2 How do you view yesterday's posts? Think you can only view todays posts on todays posts underneath the xmb icon top left, but at the top of each thread is a section enabling you to subscribe to that thread, make it your favourite, or send to a friend 3 How do you view them all in a long list like you can here? You can only view all the posts from one thread at a time, although it means you cant see all the post titles, it does save you having to open each post individually 4 How can you tell which is a new post like you can here? Not sure if admin can set thAt up, we need to wait til jhb's back to find out, but at the top of each thread you can subscribe or add to your favourites list When you go to your control panel it lists all the new posts in the threads you have marked as favourites The search function also lets you find all the posts by a named user on one page 5 Does it have a way of telling you you've already read a post, like it does here? Not sure if thats possible either, although going to your control panel lists all the threads you've marked as favourites with new posts, for that day and since you last logged on which rules out threads with no new posts for you 6 do you know how to view the post you're replying to, in the way you could on F7? When you open up the reply page, go below where you will put your reply and you will find all the previous posts in that thread also if you highlight part of the post you want to reply to and press the quote button, it opens up a reply page for you automatically with the highlighted quote already inserted into your reply

Subject: Livia, what do you think... From: Chuck S. To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 15:09:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... of the anyboards software, in comparison? See how I've configured Symposium II. I've made it as much like hotboards as I could. You can read without loging in, and the login proceedure just allows you to choose your own password, no registration or email required. I believe it is very easy to use. Try it for yourself and see. I'm not suggesting that Symposium II be the new forum (I would NOT want that), but anyone can sign up for an anyboards forum, and configure it in a wide variety of ways. I've choosen a simple configuration, and anyone can copy it, I put a template of it in the Anyboards build archive. I was very impressed when Gerry discovered this software, and have found it to be better than any other I've seen. I was very skeptical at first, but using it has made me a believer. If people want to go with the Extream.com sofware of the ExCommunication board, it's OK with me. But I think that software does not have nearly as many options as Anyboards. People can do what they want, but Gerry really is onto a good thing with Anyboards. He gets my "Hall of Fame" nomination for that alone! :)

Subject: Re: Livia, what do you think... From: Livia To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:02:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Chuck, I've just looked at Symposium 2 (for the first time - sorry!) and yes it looks good and easy to use. However I've just seen that Hamzen's just set up a new froum that could well be the successor to this one. It seems pretty good to me on first glance - and the main thing after all is that it's easy to use and accessible to all without becoming a mecca for trolls. I think Hamzen's could well be the one to do it, and recommend that everybody goes over there to have a look. This orum was truly great but if it's not viable to run it any more, then so be it. The main thing is that its successor is as streamlined and user-friendly as this one, and I do think Hamzen's could do the job. If not, then a Symp 2 type forum could also be successful, by the look of it, but I do think we need one main forum for the purpose of deconstructing Knowledge etc. All the best to you and love, Livia

Subject: also popular threads stay on top From: hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:42:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: no more disappearing off screen even when they are buzzing

Subject: Are you talking about me? From: Richard To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 13:19:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have several long-time premie friends who fell firmly off the fence by doing just that over several years. I resemble that remark! Just because I lurked on F1 - F5 for a couple of years before exiting permanently doesn't mean you have to out me like this. Oh, Joy - you are sooo cruel. Ooops, I guess I outed myself - never mind! ;) All kidding aside, I agree 100% re: the Forum being of great value for the wavering PWK, fencesitter or longtime ex that has never worked through the layers of programming. I also agree that kudos should go to any and all who've taking on the duties of FA. Not for the squeemish. Gerry and others have been mentioned and let's not forget PatC who has had enough (for now?) with the hassles involved keeping the place vermin-free. Richard, who was a fencesitter and Joy's friend at the same time

Subject: i totally agree with Joy-inpenetrable! nt From: The Falcon To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:48:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I totally agree From: Marshall To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:19:58 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: I couldn't have said it better myself.

Subject: Re: *** Ex-Premie Forum Status *** From: Richard To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:29:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We should have some clarity by the end of the week! Yeah sure John, that's what I thought in 1972 when I received the Knowledge of all Knowledges from Sant Ji Maharaj via Mahatma Fakiranand. :) All the best to Gerry - thanks a million!

Subject: Re: *** Ex-Premie Forum Status *** From: gerry To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 08:11:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I posted the invitation to try the new forum I had no idea that Gerry would immediately announce his retirement. I now realise it's what he needs to do, and yes I am willing to take over for the time being Well I'm gonna say what I'm about to say publicly only because thoses dildoes over on Lifes Grate are running around crowing like they won some big moral victory because I'm closing F7. I do think it sucks that you started that new forum as it basically undercuts my efforts completely, but you can have it. AS IF I could compete with a new secure troll-free forum run on the official ex-premie website. I know when I'm beat. And I know (er,think) you've been itching to get your hands on the wheel for some time, so don't be coy, John. Gloat a little, even. I would. I have no regrets about dumping the forum on you like that and I'm actually glad you weren't ready. Now you can fucking struggle with the new software like I have for the last several weeks. My Anyboards version of Forum Seven that Hamzen, Chuck and I have worked on long and hard was about to come out. Like in about one week, so great move and excellent timing. Gerry, could you put a link to Excommunication at the top of the page? Thanks. We should have some clarity by the end of the week! Ah, no, I don't think so. And I don't think it's a good idea to have *any* forums on EPO. The arms-length relationship between the forum and the site made a lot of sense to me. Don't much care for the name Excommunication, btw. Too scary catholic for me...

Subject: Do you want to go or not? From: Peg To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:32:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought you were burnt out but now you sound like you want to keep on but John has sabotaged it. Of course I probably don't know the half of what goes on but it seems to me that if the new format is even better than this and you have all worked on it you could get on and do it. If John's forum takes over ( which I don't suppose it ever would if it is specialist and less open) fair enough, but I like the way you have been running this so please don't go if you don't want to. Personally I liked the idea of a 'truth seeking forum' and would be disappointed not to be able to have both. Peg

Subject: Re: Do you want to go or not? From: gerry To: Peg Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 15:40:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought we should work together with one site so I don't have to do all the FA'ing. That was the point of the Anyboards software. Many hand make light the work. It wasn't exactly a secret we were working on this. John's will do the same thing now and Hamzen will show him how to brighten it up and get threaded message going and it will be just as good as Anyboards. Maybe. Burned out? Yes lately, that's true, but I had carefully formulated plans to get myself out of burnout and to stay out of burn out. Yes, I'm going , but not quite in the manner I had hoped...

Subject: Here's another thing, Peg From: gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 16:00:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If JHB was so hot on FA'ing a forum why didn't he give me a hand with F7? That's one big bear to wrestle with everyday, and I sure could have used a vacation now and then. No, he has to go play around with some new software, knowing damn well we were working on something. I'm not calling it sabotoge whatever, but it ain't exactly co-operation neither.

Subject: Don't go, Gerry! From: Roger eDrek To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:08:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You've been the *** BEST *** Webmaster ever! I don't think that anyone else has ever even come close to your style and longevity.

Subject: I had some similar thoughts... From: Chuck S. To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:15:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: At first, I also thought it was bad timing, John comming out with his new forum, before you had a chance to launch a new one on Anyboards. I had great hopes for a new forum7 or 8 on Anyboards, because I have seen what the software is capable of. It's called 'Anyboard' because it is so versitile, you can create Any-kind-of-board you want. You can do it in the guest-book style of John's Excommunication board, or the threaded style of Hotboards, or a number of other variations. But I also want to acknowledge too, that John had been talking for a while about doing a forum where people could talk about 'Truth Seeking', or whatever. So I suspect that may be what 'Excommunication' was all about. Gerry, you have a good point though, about having the main forum hosted on EPO. I thought it was decided that it would be best to keep the forum and EPO separate. Has that changed? When the whole issue about the private and confidential Recent Exes forum happened, it made me think alot about the purpose of these forums. It made be realise that many people prefer a private forum, and made me question the need or purpose of the public forums. It made me think that, at the very least, a public forum should at least offer password protection to its users. Even Katie H. recently refered to Roupell as a pest that she would have blocked if she could. That says a lot. :) The Hotboards forums are too volitile simply because there is no effective way to moderate a civil discussion with their software. This has lead me to withdraw my financial support for 'The Symposium' on Hotboards, because I felt that trying to moderate there was simply exhausting and a waste of my time and money. I've created 'Symposium II' on Anyboards, which I feel is a better alternative, that doesn't cost me money or waste my time. Yet all I can do is offer it, I can't make anyone use it. If people WANT to muck about on Hotboards forums, with all kinds of anonymice poking and prodding and stalking them, they can. People are free to choose. The whole issue with RE made me realise that people can do whatever they like regarding these forums. That includes me. I won't be wasting time on forums that are troll playgrounds. I'd rather be enjoying my life. The Maharaji Watch Web Directory lists all the forums I know of. All things considered, I guess people can choose whatever they want in a forum, or create one themselves. P.S. Has anyone else noticed that Charles Glasser's website, 'www.thetruthaboutmaharaji.com', and Erika Anderson's site, 'www.pleaseconsiderthis.com', have both dissapeared completely? Maharaji Watch Wed Directory (forums and websites) www.geocities.com/maharajiwd/index.htm

Subject: a gold watch, tee shirt? something? From: gerry To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 13:54:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About this 'truth seeking' forum: I believe it would quickly make my site redundant. This is mainly about the RE crowd regaining control of the forum so I am basically handing it to them. I can't admin a forum when I don't have the full support of the ex community. I know a lot of people who used to post, don't, so maybe this is a good thing. And I'm only half kidding about this. Like Marianne said, change is good. I'm not fighting it but I'm gonna say exactly what I think. Hey can we start a hall of fame on EPO for guys like me and Jim and PatC who get shot down by 'friendly fire?'

Subject: What did I miss gerry? From: AJW To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:02:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi gerry, What happened to Jim and Pat? I thought they were just on holiday, or busy, or volunteered for the war on Turr or something? Anth, missing all the gossip.

Subject: 'truth seeking' forum? From: Jethro To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 20:40:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there are 1000s of such truth-seekers forums for everyone. Why do ex-premies want a special one? gerry why not offer this forum to Hamzen? 'Hey can we start a hall of fame on EPO for guys like me and Jim and PatC who get shot down by 'friendly fire?'' In a few months the (cyber)book-burning will start and everyone will say who is Jim, PatC and gerry. Sounds familiar. Ho hum, I guess I am an old stick in the mud, not going with the times. Still with ex-premies like Salam and Quiet and premies like Salam and Quiet, what can one expect? I wouldn't be surprised if the REs are riddled with premies. Cheers and thanks for all your work here jethro

Subject: wrt the way you've tossed names around. (nt) From: You're an idiot, Jethro, To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 22:35:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: and what do you know From: Jethro To: You're an idiot, Jethro, Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 01:42:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: about names? O nameless brave one!!

Subject: The World, if you bow down to me... From: gerry To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 20:58:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro, you've hit on something here. Hamzen could put the Anyboards configuration he likes on the Anyboard server and run it as FA. That would solve a lot of problems quickly. Ham has the Anyboards passwords, and all the config file we made are still available.

Subject: Position, Words and Actions From: gerry To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:34:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Position: Maybe some people don’t know, but because he controls which forums are linked from EPO, John is the ultimate decision maker on the ex-premie forum. No link to EPO, no F7. That’s the reality. Words: John floated a balloon on this a short while back. He now states, in his reasons for a new forum, '...the general volatility of life here,' meaning of course, F7. Actions: John stepped right in with a new forum at a critical point, which is, as I have stated, ten times better than the rather mediocre and unsecure Hotboards model T forum. And he has a secure server, his own domain. Shit, that’s peachy, a FA’s dream, in fact. (This is a stroke of Machiavellian genius actually, coming at a personal nadir for me with Carlos nagging me and the Lifers taunting me. John, I didn’t know you had it in you, you devil.) :) Sir Dave was prophetic with his timely comments on power and those who have it, are those who grab it. I believe this is true, and a sign of a true cyber-warrior. Don’t underestimate Saint John, with his "no swearing" signs at the door post; within beats a heat of steel and a will of granite...

Subject: Re links from/to EPO: my 2 cents From: Jean-Michel To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 07:28:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerrrrr, I'm one of the persons taking care of the pages on EPO. Are you aware that we now have 4 physical hosts hosting EPO and its mirror sites ? It's not an easy job keeping all the links current. In spite of the many crisis that already happened, which are a normal thing in life and in such a community IMO, I feel that the forums are a priceless tool for everybody's sanity. Wherever the forums are located, I feel there has to be some indication on EPO on how to get there. I'm sure John is NOT against the idea of having links to the forums, maybe he's simply tired of fighting (like I am myself). I've got one simple policy: not arguing with people I know I'm going to fight with. And not here specially. Same policy at my work, with relatives etc. You can't agree with everybody, plus e-conversations is a source of big misunderstandings. You end up fighting against people you'd love if you meet them in real life. The idea of the group of forums Hamzen just set up looks great for me, and you keeping F VII alive too, even if you have to make it more private. Keep chasing the trolls, and don't try to justify your views to everyone. You've done a great job on F7, no matter the mistakes you've done, and the fact they were or weren't mistakes. Cheers JM

Subject: My policy on EPO forum links From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:45:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The pre-forum page on EPO highlights this forum as the main public ex-premie discussion forum, Symposium as the main public off-topic ex-premie forum, and Life after Maharaji as a private ex-premie forum. (We've had enough arguments about the third when it was erroneously called Recent Exes, so please don't start another one). I used to link to LG, but it's such a mess, and is not linked on any pro-Maharaji site, I see no reason why I should, so I don't. While the two anyboards forums were being trialed, I saw no reason to add links, as links were here and on Symposium. There have been other forums that have never become popular or particularly interesting so I don't waste people's time by sending them there. So to slightly correct the impression given by J-M, the forum links on EPO are up to date, and as soon as this forum or Symposium are replaced, or have serious competition, then I'll change the links on EPO. The only people who have power regarding which forums are linked on EPO are the people who contribute to the forums. I'll just follow the crowd. The evidence for this is that I had nothing to do with the setting up of Forum 6, Forum 7 or Symposium, but they immediately became the forums for their purpose, so EPO was changed. John.

Subject: Thanks JHB [nt] From: JohnT To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:12:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Sorry I gave that impression From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 08:56:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I didn't follow all the details of the previous discussion, and I was under the impression you had arguments about the setting of those links. I'm going to keep my mouth shut next time (I'll try anyway) ...:-)) Peace JM

Subject: What the Hell is going on???? From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:00:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, Why don't you just keep this forum? Too burnt? Has John said he won't link to this board if you kept it here or switched over to Anyboards F8? What's going on? I don't like the way things are turning out and would love to hear from John and you about this. The Excommunication board sucks as is. Cynthia

Subject: My horse is old and I'm saddlesore... From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:30:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can read the writing on the bunk house walls, Cynth. It's about time I headed up to Montana anyway. There's still seas of green grass there, I'm told. This tired old horse knows when to seek pasture. Besides, the wild strain of mustang we used to have around these parts has just about been bred out now, and I miss them days. There's no place in politer society for a hard livin,' rough talkin' old cowpuncher anyway. The remuda is gentled down some now and not so easily spooked these days. That's to my credit and I hope it gets even better for y'all in the future.

Subject: I admit, I have not been following too closely... From: Tonette To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 08:33:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But Gerry, what in God's name is going on? The continuous phone calls getting to you? The continuous critisizm of blocking premie trolls getting to you? The continuous administration this forum requires just too much time and effort? It would be for me, that's for sure, all of the above. I hate the new forum format. But, oh well. Don't close this forum if you don't want to. I want to say that I hope you will continue to be a presence here. I've always enjoyed your forthwrite, blunt, perspective. Hope all is well with you. Fondly, Tonette

Subject: The devil fools with the best laid plans... From: gerry To: Tonette Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 13:21:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, what was going on is some of us got together and developed a new strategy for the forum. We researched software and servers and gained a lot experience configuring one particular forum software from Anyboards which seemed to be a very good choice. I was going to have three or four moderators, each from different areas of the world to do what little 'troll patrol' might be needed with such a set up. The new forum would have the look and feel of Hotboards but with much greater user control and self regulation. It would also be free, while I pay monthly for Hotboards. And a lot less work for me. It's very flexible and could have been used with or without registering. John's software is quite similiar and has the same potential. When I saw that, I threw in the towel for the above mentioned reasons.

Subject: JMHO to Gerry et al From: Katie To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 19:12:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My point-by-point analysis (snicker - I've been doing technical writing all day, so forgive me please.) 1. The Anyboards forum you were planning sounds really good, and would be close enough to the look and feel of Hotboards to make people more comfortable. I like the way Chuck has set up Symposium II, and, needless to say, I'm all for better troll control (Like you, I have experienced the feeling of waking up in the morning and finding out someone has scribbled graffitti all over the forum.) The free part is good too - so is the idea of roving FA's. 2. I haven't talked to John about this directly, but I do not think he meant to undercut you. It's just not his style, for one thing, and for another, he HAS spoken up several times about starting another forum for discussion of 'What is Truth'. The forum format he is using is more appropriate for a lightly trafficked board (IMHO, anyway), because threads can go on literally forever, since they come to the top when there is a new post. 3. I don't really know what you meant when you spoke about the 'Recent Exes' crowd, but I can tell you that I, personally, usually only have enough time to post on ONE forum. If I follow the conversation here, I don't have time to get into the conversation on another forum, and vice versa. Again, I don't think John wanted another forum in order to compete with F7, Symposium, TheWeather, OR Recent Exes (which is now called "Life after Maharaji, btw). I think he wanted to introduce a forum with a new new main topic of discussion that was not restricted to ex-premies &/or premies. I might be wrong, but this is the feeling I got from his previous statements. As far as hosting it on EPO2 - well, he's paying for four domains right now, so I can see how that would make sense, at the start at least. 4. If, as you said, you've figured out a way to host the forum on Anyboards with shared moderation, less work for you, less money, and easy to use software. I think that you should go for it. Well, I'll shut up now - maybe JHB will have something to say.

Subject: Re: JMHO to Gerry et al From: gerry To: Katie Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 21:05:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...I can tell you that I, personally, usually only have enough time to post on ONE forum. If I follow the conversation here, I don't have time to get into the conversation on another forum, and vice versa. This is precisely the point, and is exactly how John will indeed be both undercutting and competing with me and it is not worth my making a redundant effort under these circumstances.

Subject: Re: *** Ex-Premie Forum Status *** From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:07:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Thanks for coming up with the new forum. Is it possible to have a lighter background color? I suppose there's plenty of time to work these things out. And the not swearing part? I LOVE IT! I need the practice;) Cynthia

Subject: Not Swearing? From: AJW To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:11:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's this fucking non-swearing bollocks Cynthia? Did I miss something? Anth the fucking prat.

Subject: Re: Not Swearing? From: Cynthia To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:22:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't you read the message before you logged in? It says 'be polite and don't swear' Fuck! Cynthia

Subject: Shit, you're right Cynthia. From: AJW To: Cynthia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:29:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't you read the message before you logged in? It says 'be polite and don't swear' Fuck! Cynthia --- I'd better fucking behave. Does it say anything about having a shower before logging on? Anth the well-mannered Christian.

Subject: Gratitude; To Gerry John and all Fa's From: Peg To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 02:29:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Gerry for staying around this long. Being in need of new outlets for my gratitude I have decided to bestow a heap of it on FA's of all shapes and sizes. I would have been still lost in confusion, or at least more of it, if no one had stepped in when f6 died and there was nowhere else for this conversation to take place. I think reading the discussions and debates that go on on the forums is an incredible help to refinding my own discrimination and settling down as a member of the real world. I really don't fancy the job of FA myself, nor think I would do it well, so when someone steps in to take over or start anew, usually over the ashes of the last burnt out FA, I truly have nothing but awe and gratitude in my heart. (well perhaps a little guilt also) John I read your thread here about starting a 'no sacred cows' forum when it was well down the page. I started a reply (fantastic idea!) but somehow never finished it. When you announced your new forum I thought that is what it would become (if such a thing is even possible). Now you seem to have ended up with the main ex premie forum dumped in your lap. I hope that's OK, and if its not OK you can say so and leave the rest of us to sort that out. Thank you very very much to Dave, Gerry, Chuck and now John Peg

Subject: Long live the King From: Sir Dave To: Peg Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:29:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All hail King Gerry, saviour of the day when premie CAC blackmail forced me to abandon Forum 6. You jumped in just at the right moment Gerry. Everyone here owes you a debt of gratitude for the last year.

Subject: Re: Gratitude; To Gerry John and all Fa's From: AJW To: Peg Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:09:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Peg, I echo your thanks to Gerry for keeping the wagon on course. John knows what he's letting himself in for, as he's done the job before. With John living in Latvia, does this mean that the forum is now officially Latvian? If so, the long term aims of the Latvian Revolutionary Forum Brigade, Hans Jayanti 74 Division, have been achieved at last. All those meetings in smoke filled rooms, through the night, in a basement in Queensway have come to fruition. Hamzen, Marianne, Charlie, Jethro and I can now stand on tables, wave bits of paper in the air, and shout political slogans. 'VICTORY TO THE LATVIAN EX-PREMIE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY. DEATH THE RUNNING DOG PAPER TIGER CULTIST LACKEYS. DOWN WITH THE WEST COAST REVISIONISTS.' 'THE WORDS OF CHAIRMAN BRAUNS ARE THE LIGHT TO TAKE US INTO THE FUTURE.' Sorry Peg. I got a bit carried away there. Anth, on the Zelta Skelta.

Subject: Re: Gratitude; To Gerry John and all Fa's From: bill To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:53:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Im hopelessly out of touch and behind the times as far as all the personal issues amongst ex's here.

Subject: The new forum From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 15:39:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry to moan but I've just registered and posted on the new forum and have to say it doesn't look anything like as clear and simple as this one. What I and I know many other people love about this forum is its easy to view and use format. You open the page and can immediately see all the new threads and who has posted what since you last looked. Couldn't be clearer. Also the white background makes it easy to read for us who are losing our night vision due to advancing years. I've come to love it here and am of the belief that if a thing works, don't change it. I've no problem with a new forum as long as: 1 It's on a white background 2 You can see threads at a glance 3 You can see who has recently posted at a glance 4 It's easy for lurkers to come on and read without necessarily having to register, which could put them off. The only advantage I can see to the new forum is knowing exactly who else is simultaneously online. Why the need to change the forum so drastically? If Gerry's had enough, why can't John just take over this one? Lastly, I expect I'm being a pain with all these objections, but for a long time I've felt this forum's format just couldn't be bettered. Comments, anyone? Love, Livia

Subject: I agree [nt] From: anon ex-p lurker To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 18:16:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The new forum From: bill To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:50:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought recently of posting to John about how forum 8 is not idiot proof. I managed to not be able to post there when I tried. It does have to be as simple as this one hopefully. And if signing on is required, that should be really obvious and simple also. I am not doing the work, so like you I am sheepish about complaining, but idiot proof is what we have here on this forum, ha ha, but really, it is idiot proof here in its design. Hopefully this next forum will be also.

Subject: Forum 8 was an Anyboard forum... From: Chuck S. To: bill Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 17:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forum 8 was using Anyboard software, which means there was a vast number of ways it could be configured, and quite a few levels of security which could be turned on or off. What you saw was simply one configuration. If that one was not suitable, others could be tried. You could give Symposium II a try. It's also an Anyboard forum, and I've made the configuration simple. Login is simple. You choose a password, no email or registration required. Features can also be changed quite a bit. After seeing what Anyboards offers for free, I'm suprised that anyone would even want to continue paying for a Hotboards forum.

Subject: I agree.(nt) From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 01:29:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I defer to those who do the work From: Francesca To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:50:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's really hard work hosting a Forum. When we switched from Forum 5 to Forum 6 and Forum 7, there was also a chorus of moans on the format. But I'm sure John will look here to see what he can 'tune up.' Francesca

Subject: No way I could read/post there From: Dermot To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:15:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The text is so small...even with IE 'Largest text'. I'm prone to lethal headaches and migraines ...I just couldn't survive there :) Besides some of the text is black on black ...'subject' etc ...what's that all about? I'll just have to bow out.....use symp till that sinks and then disappear into the undergrowth :) PS and it's so dark and gloomy there ...bahhhh humbug....moan. moan , moan , moan..... :)

Subject: blimey From: hamzen To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:36:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: dermot you dummy, you can set your text size yourself there

Subject: Re: blimey From: Dermot To: hamzen Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:49:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Independent of IE text size ....oh ok....yup I'm a dummy. I'm off to bed now though I'll check it out later :) BTW your pics are hilarious ......and you're the doppleganger of one of my closest friends.....a never was a premie, cool as they come wee Glaswegian guy,.....whose happily residing in a lovely lil chalet in Gwithian Bay, Cornwall.....AND he's recently a father to a son and he's bit older than me.....there's hope for us yet matey... in fact, he was telling me about a 75 year old artist he met down at St Ives who was happily puffing some of Gus' powerful homegrown skunk hahah...apparently the old fella couldn't get enough of the stuff. Of course I love my daughter to bits but I'm getting all paternal lately....I'd LOVE a son too :) blah blah blah

Subject: revised attitude From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:04:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh Gawd i think I've jumped the gun again. Just had another look at the new forum and maybe it's not so bad after all. Maybe I'll even get used to it! Hey! Maybe I've got start being more open to new ideas etc etc etc oh never mind Love to all, Liv XXX

Subject: Mwaaaa! From: Francesca To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:51:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Love to you too -- hope to see you wherever! Francesca

Subject: 'Who Is M' thread locked. Why? From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 15:09:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why has the Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji thread below been locked? The link is full of fascinating stuff from the past and contains lots of material for interesting responses - and it's a locked thread. Can somebody please explain? Livia

Subject: Yet another new forum From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:27:39 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@ex-premie.org Message: I've noticed that Chuck has reverted to a free forum for the Symposium, and given the general volatility of life here, I thought it's a perfect time to start a new forum. The address is in the link, and the topic will no doubt become clear in time. Everyone is welcome to come and play. John Excommunication Forum www.ex-premie2.org/excommunication/

Subject: Re: Yet another new forum From: Anthony To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 00:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To Log in, do you need to state your email address? What happens to those people who post under a pseudonym (for necessary reasons)? Aren't they compromised?

Subject: Re: Yet another new forum From: the un-mensionable one To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:18:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bingo Anthony! Just an other way they can controll things

Subject: It's your baby then From: gerry To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:38:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I like your forum better, especially since you are the FA. I'm diverting traffic to you. Thanks and good luck.

Subject: Who Is/Was GMJ: more online From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 10:26:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: New excerpts online today: Who was GMJ Including: A Free Policeman, A Free Prisoner, The Stabbing of Randy Lamont, Before I Was Born, Gary Girard's story, etc ... And a nice introduction by Anth.

Subject: the thread is blocked [nt] From: test to see if To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:49:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And a couple more chapters From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 08:53:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sociology for Sceptics and a couple more articles onbline today. You'll wonder then what sociology actually is about !

Subject: This thread isn't locked Livia! From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 00:52:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What makes you think it is ?

Subject: All threads were locked, J-M From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 00:59:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry locked the entire forum when he made his sudden decision to hand over to me. Livia must have wrote this just as he unlocked it. Read Gerry's note above and my post. Looks like we're moving house again:) John.

Subject: Re: Who Is/Was GMJ: more online From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:47:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually reading through some of that brought back memories of that feeling. Oh the hope, the innocence, the longing, the wonder! The sincerity is palpable - we really thought the Lord was here walking amonst us - it's not surprising so many of us were prepared to dedicate our lives, and actually - bless us for being so ready to commit to such an apparently lofty ideal! But then how cynically M manipulated all that youthful wonder, innocence and idealism and turned it back towards himself, and how cynically he hid from us what he really turned out to be. When was that book written? 1974? And already in 1973 he was drinking and hiding Marolyn from us... Current premies should really get a grip. Glimpses on a stage or even short up close and personal encounters tell us nothing about someone. As AV posted down below, premies are living out a fantasy; the man and his image are two very different phenomena. This is the Rawat family get rich quick scheme and boy has it worked. Livia

Subject: law-abiding premies From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:31:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love this bit by a premie policeman: 'I suppose if everybody was a premie, I'd have to find another job, because there would be no need for policemen anymore.' Sheesh! He obviously didn't know about all the wheeling, dealing, scamming....or maybe it hadn't started then. Premies: the most amoral bunch of people ever to give themselves a spiritual label. Maybe that's why M had to drop the spiritual bit - it was just too obviously ridiculous. I wonder if that policeman is still a premie? Livia

Subject: To J-M From: The Falcon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:04:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: a must-read for Leaders magazine methinks.

Subject: Great work, Jean-Michel! From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 10:54:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And nice work Anth, as well. When did you get time between sleeping and looking at the Cornish sunset to write that? John.

Subject: Blackmail John. From: AJW To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 03:39:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Jean-Michel blackmailed me, threatening to publish certain photos of me in a certain outfit doing a bit of voluntary work for the PDSA. (Jean-Michel, I got the name of the publisher wrong. It should be 'Bantam', not 'Dell'.) John, if you need an occasional assistant, to leave yourself time off for the occasional Zelta or two, do let me know. I've a bit more free time now there's no more room in the cabin for furniture made from salvaged wood. All is well in the altered states. Hope all is well in the Baltic States. Talk soon, Anth a carpenter in a splinter group.

Subject: Premie spam, Gerry From: Marianne To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 20:44:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, it appears premies are impersonating posters on this forum and littering it with nasty, non ex-premie related material. You're just giving the world a view into how premie hackers and disruptors have always behaved on this site.

Subject: check these out From: RogereDek To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:44:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: s t e a k a n d c h e e s e |home|faq|exes|pics|movies|audio|misc|other| Name Date Size --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 1. traindog3.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:41 2002 106k 2. traindog2.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:28 2002 110k 3. shitsearch.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:17 2002 39k 4. resistant.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:06 2002 26k 5. mrPUDding.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:04 2002 33k 6. gatherday3_043.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:01 2002 118k 7. feeltbabt.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:58 2002 24k 8. 12_fingers.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:57 2002 18k 9. cl-early.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:57 2002 16k 10. goatsergery/ Sun Jul 21 07:40:35 2002 512b 11. titfuck.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:20 2002 17k 12. poweroflove3.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:18 2002 28k 13. poweroflove2.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:17 2002 31k 14. poweroflove1.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:13 2002 37k 15. 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Subject: I'm so flattered From: The Real Roger eDrek To: RogereDek Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey weenie-head, Thanks for keeping me in the forefront of your consciousness. I so much love your adoration and attention. Somehow, somewhere I must have been a great influence in your life. Too bad you don't spend more of your time realizing the precious knowledge that your MASTER has revealed to you. But, I guess that I'm far more interesting that jabbing oneself in the eyeballs, aren't I? Perhaps, if you find meditating that boring you might check out Maharaji's poetry. There's got to be more to your life than me! What a looser!!!

Subject: maharishi opines on current affairs From: cult blabber To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 17:36:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Speaks On World Condition From Peter Kiefer p.kiefer@ayurveda.nl 7-27-2 Dear Jeff, Here are a few highlights from the latest interview with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. http://www.globalcountry.org Best wishes, Peter On U.S. President Bush I see him as an ignorant man, who knows nothing of the frontiers of science, or of reason, or of the meaning of religion. That great country is being led to destroy the world by very wrong sentiments. On the Middle East Israel is a child of America. I have forgotten about Israel. When people are murderers, who can bother about them? And they think that by killing, they will go to heaven, but their heaven will be hell from our side. All that is happening in Israel is the doing of America. For the sake of politeness, one may not say that, but those are my thoughts. On killing Killing is sin. It doesn't matter who is doing the killing - a head of state, a businessman, or a laborer. Killing is sin, and the killer will be destroyed. This is not me saying that. This is in every religion: 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' And killing by the military is a much bigger sin, because it will come back on the whole country. On education So far, education has been very damaging to life. You educate your children in a haphazard way and do not train them to use their full brain, and then when they get older and they shoot someone on the streets, you say, 'What is happening?' But it is your own doing. How you educate the students is how they will behave in society. The purpose of student life is to enliven the field of cosmic intelligence which is Total Natural Law, total brain functioning. Scientific research has shown that the use of total brain functioning through Transcendental Meditation is real; it is not gossip, or a children's story to be cast aside. On ahimsa (the Indian principle of nonviolence) The principle of ahimsa is very good. It is the principle of eternal peace. But peace requires strength to be perpetual. Today ahimsa is in the hands of weak, lifeless people in India. The word has no meaning. We want to create that coherent world consciousness where ahimsa will be a living reality. Ahimsa is a character of life; it is not a virtue. On America's corporate scandals Personal gain is the prime motivator in a capitalist country. There is so much fraud in the way money is earned in these countries it's quite ugly. And they are all involved in it - the president, the vice president - they are all involved. It is a big muddle. However, the influence of the coherence-creating groups on this will be great. Nothing wrong will come up. Deceiving others will be absent. Harming others will be absent. Money mongering makes a man blind - it is such great ignorance. One can be in a dark room and break one's head or knees, but all that will come to an end with the onset of light. We will bring the light. Comment R.J. Stanton 7-27-02 I don't think the Maharishi is much of one to give his opinion about anything in our society; as if his TM corporation isn't entirely involved in money mongering?! I remember this bozo popping up at Woodstock with Tim Leary and getting the enormous crowd to chant 'No Rain! No Rain!' telling them they could make their own reality and 'will' the storm clouds away. Well, by God's greater wisdom and grace, it DID rain... and hard. And had it not, many would have died from heat stroke and dehydration. This man is truly the 'Fool on the Hill,' and his opinion is worthless. Read Calvin Miller's excellent exposé on TM and the Maharishi 'Transcendental Hesitation.' It might be out of print and little hard to find, but well worth the hunt. Miller infiltrated the TM movement and revealed many of its darker secrets. Meditation -- of many sorts -- may have its benefits, but one doesn't need the Maharishi to enjoy those benefits.

Subject: gerry i am accepting your kind offer... From: Quiet a long Donger To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:02:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I will accept you kind offer of being the FA of 4 um 7. I realise your magnonamous gesture is just that magnonamus! i am realy humbled by you jesture! heres hoping the air is cleared between us. I nilly fell of my chair when i red your post on LG. And I fully suport your ideas about raising funds to keep 4 um 7 going. What did you think of my sujestions? *Q*

Subject: what you do is what you are From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 15:20:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I posted a post earlier today in answer to la-ex's survey down below and it got me thinking about the idea 'what you do is what you are'. I had a conversation with a (devoted) premie friend the other day. He has read some of EPO and knows all about Jagdeo, Maharaji's affairs, the yacht etc, and has decided it doesn't matter. He is convinced that M is in some way special and in reality hasn't shifted one iota from his original view - that M is a master of spirituality. I can't get my head round the fact that he is completely unconcerned by the inconsistencies. For myself, as I admitted down below, I still do have some residual positive feelings for M which I don't fully understand. I think they stem from long habituation plus unresolved father issues of my own which I probably coped with in my 20's by projecting 'good father' onto M. I don't know how to shake this off once and for all and would appreciate advice from others here who have dealt with similar deep imprinting. Meanwhile I'm still grappling with the fact that this friend can apparently hold his head high whilst knowing that M protected a paedophile for years. In his working life this friend is a social worker who has even worked with child victims of paedophilia so he is perfectly aware of the issues around child abuse. With anyone other than M he would smell 'cover-up' a mile off and be horrified by it; however, his love for M goes so deep that he rationalises the whole thing away. Frankly I find it scary and am beginning to wonder if I can even relate to this person any more - where is his integrity? In fact where is the integrity of any premie who knows about the Jagdeo thing and yet still makes excuses for M? For any premie reading here - think very carefully about integrity. What does it mean to you? Does the word have any real meaning for you? Or has your loyalty to M somehow clouded the meaning of the word? What has happened to you? Did you have integrity before you received Knowledge? Did you notice it ebbing away? Do you agree with the idea 'what you do is what you are'? Think about it. What you do is what you are. Think about some of the things M has done. Think about the edict: 'never doubt the purity of the master.' Then think again about some of the things M has done. Go to EPO and read John McGregor's account of the 'trainings'. Think long and hard. And if you still feel you want to follow M, then take a long hard look at yourself and think about the word 'integrity' and what it really, really means. Livia

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are From: NikW To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 01:13:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, Re the imprinting thing. I think most people who have become involved with Rowat will have developed some form of wish fulfilment centred on Rowat meeting some unmet childhood need. For some of us that may have been a primary attraction - in some ways its safer than seeking it from real people. I think though that even those who were more robust psychologically will have eventually succumbed to seeing the Perfect Master as the perfect parent we never had. As to exorcising those feelings of realising the source of a cure for childhood pain and loss, in the Guru - I'm not sure that there is any simple technique (sic), nor perhaps that a total banishment is ever possible. Like any relationship we have ever had, we can no more excise the elements of that relationship - and remain whole - than we could cut out one of our organs and remain whole. Heaven knows it would be nice if divorce was the end of a marriage but all that love, affection, hatred and annoyance happened and became part of us. It may be nausea inducing but Rowat is part of each of us whether we like it or not, the only thing we can do is to lessen the power we give to that part; I suspect that the best way to do that is to gradually allow a shift of power from those bits of us that are in a relationship with GMJ or GM or M or etc. etc., to something or things or people that are outside of any fantasy. The one thing about our relationships with Rowat, is that they are all ours, if we ever owed him anything its been long paid and what did he ever contribute in the way of a real relationship with anyone ? We are entirely free to do as we please with our Guru relationship, he was not our Mother or Father - certainly not mum or dad or ma and pa - however we may feel about them, love, hate, admiration, despisement, those were real relationships that were reciprocated, even if negatively. The relationship with (this) Guru is abstract, it has meaning as dreams have meaning - as reflections of the self, something that is very different to a dynamic interaction between people. I'm not surprised that premies don't see Rowat's failings, it's like any close relationship (albeit in this case it's one way), the focus of adoration is always faultless, at least relatively so, I mean we all must of had the sense of seeing a friend with a new partner and thinking Can she not see what a creep he is ? (or any gender combination that may apply). The answer is always NO! And the point about the devotee/ master relationship is that it is always New because none of the things that impact on a real relationship ever apply - I mean the little things - the way someone holds their drink at angle (or refuses ever to do so) or squeezes the toothpaste from the middle of the tube etc ..... Child abuse or amorality are too big for a close relationship to deal with - its always not us, never in our home, she never meant it - all those excuses used by obviously cheated and abused spouses the world over - its what premies do with Rowat because the cost of not excusing is far far too great; the relationship would not survive it. Anyway thats what I think. Nik

Subject: Nik - **best of forum** nomination [nt] From: Livia To: NikW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:03:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ditto for Nik's post-BEST nt From: La-ex To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 08:12:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ss

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:09:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Liv, it's very clear; when our relationship with M was formed, we left a huge part of our everyday toolkit on the doorstep. We never knew who M was as a person, only as a function; we formed a deep relationship based on an ideal; that of adoring devotee and all knowing master. The bond of love (and I mean that specific kind of unquestioning devotional love)may never be dismantled: we can't rationalise it away, no matter what intellectual or scientific analysis is put before us, we can feel angry, dismayed, bewildered, but still there is something, an undercurrent of our previous life, which laps close to the surface. I was with another ex sometime ago ( I may have told you this ) and we slipped into early 70s arch premie mode, kinda like college kids do Monty Python sketches, and although we were just fooling around, I started getting really 'high', just like good ol' fashioned one to one satsangs. Ah, but is it truth? where does it lead? it's sort of a self perpetuating current of energy that you can slip in and out of; I guess festivals used to be strong distillations of that expanded feeling. But the question of morals and ethics around the m camp have long been an acutely weird area; I used the phrase 'moral exclusion zone' in a previous post; if anything can be done , maybe for us to take those special feelings and realign them with life in the main, or somehow retain a sense that there is a higher state of being available to us all: Perhaps we haven't partaken of the feast, but we've smelt the cooking. But remember what I said before; we fell in love with someone we thought was the one and only perfect cook; it wasn't till much much later we were told about the burnt cookies. Love AV

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are From: Bolly To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 06:23:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Livia, That is a very depressing idea, that some one supposedly acting on behalf of abused children is able to dismiss evidence against those they have decided are above the law and above basic human integrity. I can understand you saying you are not sure you want to know this person. If some one in a position of trust acting on behalf of vulnerable people is able to ignore abberant behaviour within the cult, then how much more of that persons common sense is going through a wash to excuse other behaviour. The cult like your Frua Treblinka in an earlier post is able to neutralize or ignore unpalatable facts. The excuse is always 'look at what good this person does' But what someone does is continuous, because a person has a nice way with flower arranging or truth missapropriating, it is no reason to say his cult which is rotten to the core is a good thing. About 3-4 years ago a man was aquited of raping an eight year old girl on the grounds that she was experienced and had led him on. The judge seemed not to realise that there was some vile situation that he was consolidating against the child. Your social worker friend ought to ask himself whethter he is in the right job or in it for the right reasons. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are From: Marshall To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:39:46 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Livia, I know what you mean about lack of basic integrity being a major issue in the rawat cult. Personally it has always bothered me in regards to my own parents and their involvement with rawats dwindling personality cult. My mother who is a social worker, and very liberal politically as well, is always somehow able to turn a blind eye to all of rawats improprieties. It's just sad really, the amount of denial that basically nice and caring people are willing to go through in order to twist and turn their integrity to be able to include slimy rawatism with it. Definitely denial is a major ingredient along with low self esteem, and ' Daddy issues' Some people just need authority, I guess. Another thing that bothers me about rawats conditioning is that he takes credit for things like, noticing/appreciating your breath, stilling your mind, letting go of things that bring one down, etc. Tons of things that lots of people who have never even heard of rawats circus do to calm themselves down or whatever anyway. It bothers me how rawat insinuated his ugly presence into these things that he had no business taking credit for. Especially the breathing stuff! Everyone has heard about taking 3 deep breaths when you're angry, etc. ad infinitum, they're whole lives right? Whatever gets you through the night. I guess.

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are NT From: toni To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:13:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: troll

Subject: Yep Marshall From: Dermot To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:01:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Another thing that bothers me about rawats conditioning is that he takes credit for things like, noticing/appreciating your breath, stilling your mind, letting go of things that bring one down, etc. Tons of things that lots of people who have never even heard of rawats circus do to calm themselves down or whatever anyway. It bothers me how rawat insinuated his ugly presence into these things that he had no business taking credit for. Especially the breathing stuff! Everyone has heard about taking 3 deep breaths when you're angry, etc. ad infinitum, they're whole lives right?' That's right on, Marshall. Also, his ultimate trick is passing off 4 very basic, ancient med techniques and then try to imbue them with some sort of hocus pocus credibility...as if his 'magic hand' or his 'spiritually transmitted presence' is somehow directly linked to them.Sorry to say many of us fell for that one. He wouldn't be half so bad if he just said 'Hey look what I found in the culture I was born into .....maybe you'll feel ok once in a while if you give em a shot' :) Instead, everything is based around his personality. As at Brighton recently....'Maharaji came on stage...I've never seen him look so impeccable as now....he said .....'Did you receive Knowledge? ' blah blah blah ad nauseum. Ah well, ya live and learn , as they say....ho hum

Subject: Re: what you do is what you are From: Marshall To: Marshall Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 18:42:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:            Nazi-Überfall in Düsseldorf von Snoopy + imc - 14.06.2001 21:43 In der Nacht zum Donnerstag haben Nazis vier Menschen vor der linken Kneipe 'Tigges' in Düsseldorf mit Messern angegriffen und teilweise schwer verletzt. Weniger als 24 Stunden später waren über 1000 Leute auf der Straße. Weitere Texte bei Indymedia Erneut Nazi-Angriff in Düsseldorf Bilder AntifaDemo Demonstration gegen Naziangriff in Düsseldorf Das tat gut. Mit nur sieben Stunden Mobilisierungszeit gelang es, mindestens 1.000 Menschen auf die Straße zu bekommen, um gegen den faschistischen Überfall des Vorabends zu demonstrieren. Letzte Nacht wurden der Pressereferent des AStA der Heinrich-Heine Universität Düsseldorf, ein Journalist sowie eine weitere Person auf dem Weg zur linken Kneipe 'Tigges' von Naziskins mit 'Sieg heil'-Rufen bedroht. Unmittelbar vor der Kneipe kam es dann zum Angriff der Faschos, wobei zwei der drei Personen Stichwunden zugeführt wurden. Ein Besucher der Kneipe wollte zu Hilfe kommen und wurde von einem Fascho mit einem Stich in den Rücken lebensgefährlich verletzt. Nach einer Notoperation ist er ausser Lebensgefahr. Darüber hinaus feuerte einer der Faschos, Sven Gustavsohn, Schüsse aus einer Gaspistole ab. Heute um 19 Uhr begann vor dem 'Tigges' eine antifaschistische Demonstration, zu der sich kurzfristig 1.000 Leute zusammen gefunden hatten. Die Demo war lautstark und bewegt sich mit enormen Tempo durch die Strassen. Die Bullen war aufgrund der Stärke ziemlich überrascht und konnten lange nur reagieren statt agieren. Vor der Wohnung des Nazis Gustavsohn auf der Volmerswerther Straße wurde eine Kundgebung abgehalten und es kam zu einigen Rangeleien mit den Bullen, die versuchten, ein Spalier aufzuziehen. Die Wohnung eines weiteren beteiligten Faschos auf der Fleher Straße sperrten die Bullen weiträumig ab. Nach anderthalb Stunden endet die Demo wieder am Auftaktkundegebungsplatz. Die Nazis sollten gewarnt sein. Gute Besserung und alles Liebe den Verletzten. Kampf den Faschismus! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - Weitere Infos Antifa KOK, mit Hintergründen zur rechten Szene in Düsseldorf AStA Düsseldorf, mit dem genauen Ablauf der Aktionen Düsseldorfer Grüne, mit vielen Fotos, das obige ist auch daher            >> Ergänzung zufügen   ERGÆNZUNGEN   Hoch der Antifa-KOK Von: Autonomer Mutle 14.06.2001 22:23 Wow, hätte echt nicht gedacht, das soviele Leute so kurzfristig kommen würden, aber der Antia-KOK hat das Geschafft, was nur wenige Antifagruppen schaffen! Nochmal zum Thema Bullen: Die Bullen haben fast die ganze Zeit während der Demo Provoziert durch abdrängen der Demo und tlw. auch durch Reinknüppeln ohne Gründe. Mal wieder die Eskalations-Taktik, die sie ja mittlerweile bei fast jeder Demo benutzen, auch wenn es nur friedliche Demos sind, damit die Presse wieder von 'Chaoten' schreiben kann, die die 'lieben' Bullen mal wieder Provozieren. Dazu kann man nur sagen: A.C.A.B. Thema Faschos: Das Tigges ist eine der linkesten Kneipen in ganz D'dorf, und wo ich davon gehört hatte konnte ich es erst nciht glauben, das die Faschos echt da vorbei kommen und auch noch so eine Scheisse machen... Die Angriffe von Faschos in Düsseldorf werden in letzter Zeit immer mehr, und so kann das nicht weiter gehen... OB GRÜN , OB BRAUN - NAZIS AUF DIE FRESSE HAUEN!!!! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- das eine gut, das andere doof Von: fredderike 14.06.2001 22:56 Die Demo war echt gut, aber einige Sprüche gehören meiner Meinung nach eher auf die Müllkippe: z.B. ob grün, ob braun, nazis auf die Fresse hauen. hier wird gleichgemacht, was nicht gleich zu machen ist, oder hammer sichel und gewehr, schafft den kommunismus her(so ein blödsinn, da muss das gewehr aber auch gegen mich eingesetzt werden) oder wir sind viele wir sind krass, antifa da geht noch was, bäh das klingt doch echt albern, vor allem, weil die die das gerufen haben in meinen augen ziemliche poser sind. auch über das von der strasse fegen von nazis liese sich streiten. Also vielleicht nicht immer alles mitrufen, auch mal neue Sprüche ausdenken, gut gefallen hat mir z.B. Keine Völker keine Nation, lieber ne richtige Revolution. Aber ansonsten war es überhaubt mal supi, das so viel gerufen wurde, wie schon lange nicht mehr, keine musik, weiter so! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- klasse Von: magda 14.06.2001 23:20 bin auch beeindruckt. dank telefon, sms, email und internet. 1000 leute in 7 stunden! und so viel power in der demo! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- back in the 80ies Von: kobold 14.06.2001 23:27 Das macht Mut! Wir sind wieder mobil, wir sind wieder schnell und endlich wieder ernst zu nehmen. Den 'braunen Nasen' werden in Göttingen auch keine 10000 Bullen helfen... --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 10000????? Von: angela 14.06.2001 23:31 naja, 10000 werden ihnen wohl doch helfen, ich nehme an sogar 5000 oder noch weniger. Auch wenn wir heute viele waren, haben wir uns nicht an eine Polizeiabsperrung hersngetraut und daran scheitert es ja bei jdem Naziaufmarsch. oder etwa nicht? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- oh oh oh freddericke Von: antiimp 14.06.2001 23:42 mensch mit den parolen hast du es anscheinend wohl nicht so,ob grün- ob braun -den nazis...,mit den grünen sind übrigebs die bullen gemeint,u. mit der parole wird doch gut die idologische überschneidung gezeigt,u. das beide bekämpfends wird sind. zur parole hammer sichel u. gewehr schafft....,ist doch super,ich rege mich doch auch nicht auf über parolen für die anarchie. typisch anarchos. das du die parole mit volk u. nation gut findes war ja klar, hast du schon mal überlegt das es einfach völker gibt,wie zb. kurden,basken,palästienenser usw.,u. das diese völker unterdrückt werden. FÜR DAS SELBSBESTIMMUNGSRECHT DER VÖLKER!!! KAPITALISMUS ABSCHAFFEN!!! FÜR DEN KOMMUNISMUS!!! ps. diese kritik ist selbstverständlich solidarisch gemeint. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- na dann-.. Von: xxx 14.06.2001 23:48 mach ich jetzt aber auch mal solidarische kritik. du mußt verstehen, daß viele leute deshalb anarchisten sind, weil sie in bestimmten formen des kommunismus ebenfalls unterdrückung sehen. eine zentrale, ein parteiführer entscheidet was gut ist und nicht. weiterhin mußt du verstehen, daß viele kein bock auf militär haben (soldaten sind mörder) - also auch nicht auf rufe nach mordinstrumenten. daß ist schwerer zu schlucken als für 'euch' kommies mal versehentlich 'für die freiheit' oder 'gegen jeden staat' zu hören. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Nicht nur der Antifa-Kok Von: anarchia 15.06.2001 05:02 Wie immer der Hinweis, dass nicht alleine der Antifa Kok für die Demo mobilisiert hat. Einzelpersonen, anarchistische Gruppen, Antifa-Kok u.a. waren an der dezentralen Mobilisierungskampagne beiteiligt waren: Eine Gruppe allein schafft es mit ihrem eigenen Verteiler (Telefon und Internet) halt nicht innerhalb kürzester Zeit solch eine Menge von Leuten zusammenzubekommen! Für die Anarchie! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- oh oh antiimp... Von: l.u.p.u.s - fanclub 15.06.2001 15:38 Ich verstehe an deinem Kommentar zu Frederikes posting nicht, was du so positives an dem Begriff 'Volk' findest. Erkläre mir doch bitte mal etwas genauer, wo du für dich positive Bezüge zu den von dir aufgezählten 'unterdrückten Völkern' findest! Gerade das Konstrukt des 'Palästinensischen Volkes' ist derzeit sehr hip bei den Nazis. Gerade deutsche Linke sollten sich zum Konflikt zwischen Israel und den Palestinensern sehr zurückhalten. Aber für die Generation deutscher Linker, die sich gerne als 'Antiimps' bezeichnen, war es in den 70er und 80er Jahren ja angesagt, eine kompromißlose unreflektierte 'Palästina-Solidarität' an den Tag zu legen, anstatt sich mit der Geschichte und den Ursachen des Antisemitismus auseinanderzusetzen. Erklär mir mal bitte, wie 'der Baske an sich' gerade konkret unterdrückt wird. Wirtschaftlich? Das Baskenland ist die industriell vortschrittlichste Region in Spanien, das war auch ein Grund für rechte baskische Befreiungsnationalisten, sich von dem wirtschaftlich schwächeren Süden abzugrenzen! Die linken baskischen Gruppierungen haben durch ihren Zusammenschluß in Wahlbündnissen mit diesen rechten Gruppen ihre sozialistischen Ideale schon längst abgelegt... Kulturell? Seit einigen Jahren wird an Baskischen Schulen Spanisch und Baskisch unterrichtet, die jungen Basken lernen Baskisch, obwohl es ihre Eltern nie gesprochen haben, es im baskischen Alltag gar nicht gebraucht wird! Aber ok, kann ja ein nettes Hobby sein, für den, der sich für Sprachen interessiert, hier gibt es ja auch Plattdeutsch-Wettbewerbe und Star-Trek-Fanclubs lernen Klingonisch... PS: wie hältst Du es denn mit den 'unterdrückten Sudeten'? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Antinationale an die Wand Von: Metropolenlinkefresser 15.06.2001 16:07 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- pfui! Von: nokom 15.06.2001 16:10 hammer, sichel, lach mich schlapp, schafft den kommunismus ab. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- zurück zur debatte... Von: flippa 15.06.2001 16:10 das war gestern extrem wichtig. es hat nach dem 1.mai in essen zum zweiten mal gezeigt, dass wir noch nicht aufgeben müssen. die entschlossenheit war einfach geil. außerdem dürfte jetzt wohl allen klar sein, dass die bullen uns auf keinen fall helfen werden. also antifaschistische selbsthilfe ist angesagt, und dass nicht nur als leere worthülse. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Volk, völkisch Von: Volker 15.06.2001 16:44 ey freddericke, ich versuche sonst immer sachlich zu diskutieren, aber du spinnst einfach nur, so eine kacke kann ich mir auch von nazis anhören (ohhh, die armen basken und palis), was sind denn die eta und all die spinner, nationalisten mit scheinbar sozialistischen versatzstücken. einfach widerlig, wahrscheinlich findest du auch noch die ira klasse (die raf auch bestimmt), die armen katholiken, mann, setzt du dich auch so für die unterdrückten samen in lappland ein, oder ist das kein unterdrücktes volk. versuch mal zu verstehen unterdrückung nicht an sogenannten völkern (welchem volk gehörst du eigentlich an, und hast du schonmal überlegt das dieser ganze kram auch nur von oben aufgedrückt worden sein kann um menschen zu kategorisieren und besser beherrschen zu können) festzumachen sondern an menschen. au mann. noch kurz was zu diesem kommi und anarcho kram. die sprüche sind teilweise echt zum kotzen, und kommunismus ist doch nichts anderes als staatskapitalismus, tolle veränderung, keine parolen jetzt hier noch --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Das macht Mut Von: Ein Kieler 15.06.2001 17:03 Kein Fußbreit den Faschos, morgen 9 Uhr in der Holstenstrasse in Kiel, alle kommen!!! Dort versuchen die Faschos seit Monaten sich breit zu machen und Flugis zu verteilen... --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- re: metropolenlinkefresser Von: l.u.pu.s - fanclub 15.06.2001 18:11 erwartungsgemäß ist der eigentliche text zwischen dem titel des kommentars und dem namen des verfassers sehr klein ausgefallen.... wogegen der name des verfassers viel über dessen verfasstheit aussagt... deine kurzschlußlogik: 'antideutsch = intelektuelle [während DU ja noch auf dem Acker stehst und KÄMPFST wie ein MANN] = metropole' sagt einiges über den 'Antikapitalismus der dummen Kerls' aus... --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Hammer, Sichel und Gewehr Von: reminder 15.06.2001 19:44 Die KPD/ML - deren Parole hier offenbar mal wieder aus der Kiste geholt werden konnte - hat doch schon immer gegen 'Besatzer' (= 'Amerikaner' und 'Russen') gekämpft. Diese Nazis finden bestimmt auch, daß 'wir Deutschen' ein unterdrücktes Volk sind. Und Joscha Schmierer (von der Konkurrenz) plant für seinen Freund 'Joschka' im Außenministerium die nächsten Balkan-Einsätze für das Recht auf Selbstbestimmung 'der Völker' (im Titel der KVZ stand schließlich auch immer: Proletarier aller Länder und unterdrückte Völker, vereinigt euch! oder so). Man muß nicht 'anti-deutsch' sein, um diesen ganzen völkischen Schrott abzulehnen. Wie sollte man sonst gegen die Nazis und Faschos sein? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Mehr denken, dann schreiben Von: Genervte 15.06.2001 20:40 Unglaublich, was hier zusammengewürfelt wird. Was die IRA nun mit der RAF zu tun hat, ist mir ein komplettes Rätsel. Sowohl in ihrer Zielsetzung, als auch in ihrer Struktur, ihrer Größe und ihrem Entstehungsgrund sind beide so grundverschiedene wie nur irgendwas. Außerdem kann ich diesen Schwachsinn mit der Vermengung von Antisemitismus und Palästinensersolidarität nicht mehr hören. Über Antisemitismus und dessen Verwurzelung sowohl in der deutschen als auch in der Restgesellschaft kann und muß geredet werden. Aber Kritik an der Art und Weise, wie ein Land (oder besser - Gebiet) besetzt und dessen Bewohner vertrieben wurden, kann nicht einfach als Antisemitismus abgestempelt werden. Es ist sicher schwierig und nicht richtig, voll und ganz Solidarität mit den Palästinensern zu fordern. Unter anderem deshalb, weil sich inzwischen die Nazis das Thema schnappen und sich - eben aus antisemitischen Gründen - mit den Palis solidarisieren. Aber sollen wir deshalb auch aufhören, auf 1.-Mai-Demos zu gehen oder uns gegen die Globalisierung auszusprechen? Vielleicht sollten da doch mal unterschiedliche Beweggründe berücksichtigt werden. Der Punkt ist doch, in der Kritik an Israel unterscheiden zu können zwischen 'den Juden' und dem 'Staat Israel' (der übrigens nicht nur aus Juden besteht). Würde mensch 'den Juden' die Vereinnahmung des Gebietes vorwerfen, wäre das sicherlich antisemitisch. Nun ist das Ganze aber ein Staatsgebilde mit Macht- und Finanzinteressen, wie es beim größten Teil der Staaten der Fall ist, völlig unabhängig davon, welche Religion dort meistverbreitet ist... und dagegen sollte sich die Kritik wenden. Nunja... ein weiteres Thema, an dem sich 'die Linke' wunderschön Schau-Selbstzerfleischen kann. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Mehr denken, weniger schwallen Von: reminder 15.06.2001 21:17 So ist das also: die Nazis 'schnappen' uns einfach die Themen weg. Warum sollen aber die Sudetendeutschen ihren 'Vertriebenen-Status' nicht erben dürfen, während 'die Palis' doch genau das beanspruchen, und dabei noch gleich sich als 'Volk' konstruieren? Wie sieht denn eine 'Pali-Soli' aus, die sich nicht (ob nun offenkundig, oder aber im Verborgenen) 'aus antisemitischen Gründen' speist? Über den 'Tag der Arbeit' und die 'Macht des internationalen Finanzkapitals' (früher hieß das: 'schaffendes' vs. 'raffendes Kapital') würde ich allerdings auch mal nachdenken; spätestens wenn auch die Nazis für oder gegen etwas sind, sollte man die eigenen Gründe noch mal überdenken... --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ahem@Volker Von: Frederike 15.06.2001 23:00 Sag mal, kann es sein, das du(Pappnase) vielleicht meinen Kommentar verwechselt hast?Wo befürworte ich denn irgendwelche Völker? Wo schreib ich denn das ich irgendwelche National Befreiungskämpfe toll finde? Bevor du hier rumsabberst richtig lesen! Alles klar? Ich hoffe doch! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Der Blob kriegt euch alle! Von: Machinehead 15.06.2001 23:03 Der Blob wird kommen und euch alle absorbieren! Absorbier und absorbier und absorbier und ha! Da lacht ihr nicht mehr, dann ist es nämlich zu spät irgendetwas zu diskutieren, da geht euer theoretisches Geschreibsel hinüber in die schwarze wabernde Masse des Blobs! --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Subject: Um Marshall, what is this? [nt] From: Livia To: Marshall Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:43:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Um Marshall, what is this? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 04:46:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv I think you will find that that post was not from Marshall at all but from some troll using Marshall's name. Whoever it is is using an anonymiser (sp?) called IDZap. There seems to be a few of these type posts over the last couple of days. Very annoying! Thorin

Subject: Fake Marshall/troll alert !!! From: Marshall To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:10:38 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: You are right on Thorin. Some kind of nazitroll has posted with my handle. The nerve! Also toni(who?) is trying to make some kind of point, below my post with the cryptically one worded 'Troll'. Whatever. Actually I'm flattered, apparently my post touched a raw nerve somewhere. Some people just really get offended when you make fun of their Big Daddy Ratwat. I have a few christian pals that get all bent out of shape when I make fun of their big daddy jesus. Same thing. I can't help it, it's all just so stupid and phony to me, whether its jesus freaks, guru freaks, or even multi level marketing freaks. These kinds of people are an embarrassment to fair minded, rational, logical people.

Subject: To Mike Finch re; Dawkins From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 15:19:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a thread below Gerry has suggested that I read Richard Dawkins who is the renowned Satguru of evolutionary biologists. Knowing that this is almost certainly kindergarten stuff for you may I ask you to comment for the rest of us poets, mystics, sybarites and fools? Does he even touch the hem of the robe of your old buddy Capra or Gary Zukav? Beatrice Bruteau? Teilhard de Chardin? Aurobindu? Of course I am going to get round to reading him but would genuinely like your comments. (I am well mindful that you have no wish to be the resident pundit here but please let us know) all the best, see you soon.

Subject: Re: To Mike Finch re; Dawkins From: Mike Finch To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 18:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dawkins is a good read if you are interested in understanding what the theory of evolution is all about, and what it can explain. Dawkins is also active in countering the creationists and other religious bigots in America, particularly those that forbid evolution to be taught in schools. His best known books are the Selfish Gene and the Blind Watchmaker. Funnily enough, I have just written a post on another Forum about Dawkins and evolution. It is not particularly relevant to your post, but since I have only just written it, here it is (with apologies to Dermot)... ___________________________ What I fail to understand is why evolution cannot produce Spirit, or a sense of 'I', or God even ? Why do people feel the need to invent or postulate something other than evolution ? To say that there must be something 'higher' than matter or material existence is, in my view, to denigrate and not appreciate what this material universe really is, and how wonderful it is. Anyone who has looked at how modern physics views matter cannot but wonder with awe at it, and the mystery it is. The material world is far more incredible than people give it credit for. Many people think that material forces are somehow not worthy of explaining the universe, so let's invent a whole non-material realm, call it spirit or whatever, and think of this as superior to the material forces. People have this attitude that the material is so ordinary, so 'material' if you will, that Spirit or a sense of I cannot possible evolve out of it. I don't see why not. In fact, for me, it is far more satisfying to believe this than invent a whole fairytale. The spirit in me, that I sometimes glimpse and am trying to glimpse more, is as wonderful, majestic, mysterious, ineffable, profound and wise whether it has emerged from the complexity of my neurons, or is placed there somehow by a non-material God or higher power. Most of the anti-evolution arguments are what Dawkins calls arguments from Personal Incredulity. The argument from Personal Incredulity goes something like: I personally cannot understand how evolution could create what I call Spirit or 'I', so it cannot be true !! Of course, we don't know what the truth is. What I think Dawkins and others are saying, is that there is no need to invent anything other than evolution. The highest height, and the deepest depth, can be explained by it - all you need is to make the investment of time and energy to understand what the theory of evolution actually is, which few people do - the Blind Watchmaker is a good start. -- Mike

Subject: Re: To Mike Finch re; Dawkins From: AJW To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 03:51:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, I was worried you were going to say, 'I had lots of notes on the topic, but some bozo ashram premie threw them on a bonfire, because he didn't think they'd be necessary in the Golden Age.' I enjoyed your evolutionary post. Evolution is also opening lots of doors in History at the moment. Geneticists can calculate how long ago different species, or even human social groups, split apart, by comparing genetic differences. I've had my genome analysed, and apparently I left Mablethorpe in 1953. I left London just over two years ago, but apparently there are still some of my genes in a bin liner in the basement. Old Levis. Anth, the nurse with the needle just told me it's time for my nap. OUC..zzzzzz. (FALLS OFF KEYBOARD). CLUNKCRERCH. (The sound of flesh landing on empty beer cans)

Subject: Maturana/Varela From: hamzen To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:15:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Have you read any of maturana or varela? especially 'The Tree of Knowledge:the biological roots of human consciousness?' The fact that persinger has found a god spot in the brain (for believers) and an awae and wonder spot for non-believers, that can be activated by a magnetic helmet, is one take on this. For myself, and after a couple of years of meditation, my strong experiences were obviously bio-chem,ical, I cvould feel the chemical chasnges taking place in my body. Having also since had a longish period of doing chemikals again, after walking, know how close a lot of the meditation experiences I had were to taking e's, but the stronger ones were like a mixture of e's and mushrooms/acid. Since we know those chemicals only work by locking onto receptor sites in the brain, already there because we already have those chemicals in our bodies, seems a much simpler explanitory route to take. Also saw some interesting speculative research (early days ) recently that suggests those with a tendency to believe and see pastterns where none existed might have higher dopamine levels. Now of course none of this proves god didn't set it all up, but why add in another dimension when it's not needed, occams razor and all that.

Subject: Re: To Mike Finch re; Dawkins From: The Falcon To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:47:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: thanks mate, as erudite as ever! I'll give him a spin. I am sure that this was what Aurobindo was saying from his Indian perspective but have yet to really get my head around itor that particular language of expression. Nice city though!(Auroville)

Subject: That's the spirit Mike.! :) [nt] From: Dermot To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 18:47:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Aurubindo ?? From: Dermot To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 15:46:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a joke, right? Tell me you're joking:) Mystic mumbo jumbo cum 'scientific' spiritualism....yes? I think you're putting Mike on a pedastel, my friend....of course he's a very clever guy but like a lot of us, clever and dumb, he was involved with Mr Rawat for 30 years...I don't think Richard Dawkins would have stayed 5 mins at the Lotus Feet...now that's CLEVER :) Anyway, why don't you read and be your own critic....Mikes ' intellectual' satsang wasn't THAT deep !! Sorry fellas...Falcon, Mike.....I'm having fun and taking the piss. Not wholly, deadly serious ....just partly. :) Cheers Dermot

Subject: Aurubindo ?? From: AJW To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 03:57:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dermot, Isn't an 'aurubindo', a short, chubby, vegetable, with a few lumps and slightly bitter taste. I believe it's the main ingredient in 'Aurobindhi Bajee.' I've got a recipe somewhere. Anth, 'I guess it doesn't matar paneer any more.'

Subject: Have you guys read Terence McKenna? From: Joy To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 07:09:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Speaking of evolutionary biology/psychology, have any of you read a book by Terence McKenna called Food of the Gods? He postulates that it was the use of psychedelics, specifically mushrooms, which allowed hunter/gatherers to make the leap from animal to fully conscious human being, that it was psychedelic usage which helped evolve human consciousness as we know it today. It's an interesting book (picked it up at Watkins down in Leicester Square).

Subject: Re: Have you guys read Terence McKenna? From: AJW To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:21:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Joy, What evidence does he offer for this theory? Also, there's a hint in your explanation that hunter-gatherers are not 'fully conscious human beings'. I'd dispute this strongly. I'd say a better example of a 'not fully conscious human being' is someone who has just drunk six pints of strong beer. Generally speaking, hunter gatherers are better educated than people in our modern urban societies. There's a brilliant book on the switch from hunter-gathering to farming and then industrial society. It's called 'Guns Germs and Steel', and it's by Jared Diamond. He's a professor at Harvard, but he lived with a society of hunter gatherers in New Guinea for four years. He learned their language and lived as one of them. One day his best friend asked him, 'How come your people have made jets and computers, but my people are still living as we did thousands of years ago.' His book is an answer to the question, and proves, beyond doubt, that differences are down to environment. For example, no iron, no iron age. No edible grass seeds, no grain crops etc. Anth the delicate cyclist.

Subject: I nearly made the leap From: Dermot To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 16:41:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: off a cliff on mushrooms. Being the idiot I am, I decided to climb down a cliff (in Cornawall) and go swimming in the coves...I totally misjudged the height and complexity and hurt my knee pretty badly on the way down. I was quite worried, bordering on 'terrified', yet couldn't stop laughing my head off, along with my companion,....the mushrooms came on quicker than I originally anticipated...so there I was giggling, arms and legs like jelly and shit scared to boot. Still, I did manage the descent and had a weird and wonderful swim too. all very strange. As for the author you mention..nope never read any of his stuff.. it's a good read you reckon? I go through stages....light reading and weird, heavier stuff.....just been reading about the Jewish rebellion in AD69 and currently reading 'Cosmos, Chaos and the world to come: the ancient roots of Apocalyptic Faith'...it's quite interesting actually.....written by a distinguished proffessor (Norman Cohn)...sort of delves into the Mesapotaniums ,Egyptians, Vedic Indians, Zoroastrians...then Jews and Christians. Next week I'll be back on the beano or something :) Cheers Dermot

Subject: Re: I nearly made the leap From: AJW To: Dermot Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:26:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dermot, Your experience proves beyond doubt, that you are nuts. You took magic mushrooms, and BEFORE they started working, began climbing down a cliff. So you can't blame the drugs for your stupidity. You must have been nuts to begin with. If, however, you'd taken the mushrooms, began hallucinating, THEN climbed down the cliff, like I did, you'd be sane. Anth still not made it back up the cliff. UBBA UBBA. WOOWOOW.

Subject: I can't relate to that Anth... From: Dermot To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 05:50:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the idea that somehow you're sane :) You being a fruit and nutcase of the highest order and everything.... As always ...good to read your witty, bitter free chuckle raising asides...a great counterbalance to those of us (myself included) who are often a tad too serious verging on the pompous:) ho hum -Dermot

Subject: I deny everything. From: AJW To: Dermot Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:17:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Dermot, Too many aliminium pans. I'm 52 and dementia is setting in. Nobody should take anything I say seriously from now on (if they ever did in the first place.) I'm no longer allowed sharp objects and have to wear a gigantic nappy. Anth the wipe my drool please.

Subject: to Joy re;Terence McKenna? From: The Falcon To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 08:55:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I met him several times, argued, debated (about Soma,endlessly), laughed, smoked and parted.(his recipe for magic mushrooms-5 grams and under the blanket) A good man,great poet ....for a scientist, dotty in some of his ideologies (in my humble? opinion, particularly regarding population control but on the nail with others - the Archaic Revival. Sadly missed as he re-introduced the serious end of the psychotropic spectrum, anyone for a pipe of DMT? Before he died he established a sanctuary for ancient herbal remedies (the more forceful kind) in Hawaii. Try www.levity.com for his dialogue with Robert Hunter (lyricist for Grateful Dead) and his own website.Lots of his stuff on www.deoxy.org as well. Also do a google on Fraser Clark who was a dear friend of Tel and mine. In his 'Food of the Gods' there is a wonderful section on sugar, check it out and please report your response on Symposium. If you like McKenna, Joy, try John Lilly, ketamine in flotation tanks and communicating with dolphins (fuck!-what would Dawkins say about that, Gerry!!!??-joke, mate. Please don't block me!) Tels best quote;- No epistomolgy without pharmacology. Love The Falcon (who wouldn't dream of encouraging people to take drugs of any kind - including sugar-ask a Bunny, you know the one!)

Subject: The road to ruin, I can prove it :) From: hamzen To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:49:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: watch an ex-premie disintegrate on magic mushrooms after leaving the safe haven of the holy name www.ru-raving.co.uk/hamzen/arottingvegetable.html

Subject: LOL hi-freakin-larious! From: Richard To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:00:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Freakin' over the top brilliant, Hamzen. 3 thumbs up! Richard

Subject: thanx richard From: hamzen To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: glad someone appreciated it, the pics were all by mates of mine on aniother rather scurrilous piss taking forum so I can't take much credit for them will be doing some photoshop stuff of hrh prem rawat now, seems to say a lot more for me than words

Subject: He really does look like that!!!NT From: Jethro To: Richard Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 12:17:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: To Dermot From: The Falcon To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:56:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I certainly do do my own research, Dermot but as Mike is a dear friend I thought it pertinent to ask him in 'public'. (even though,as I stated, he would hate to be considered a pundit). And as for his satsang it was very listenable amongst the simpering bullshit of the times (which probably included yours ......and mine!) Regarding Aurobindo-my jury is still out but he has been suggested as a worthy writer on what is being called evolutionary enlightenment!?! The latest from guess where? Keep smiling!

Subject: Re: To Dermot From: Dermot To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:02:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Mikes discourses as much as the next man. In fact, when I was waiting for the Ultimate Knowledge as revealed by the Perfect one I used to spend many hours in the PoP listening to Mike and the Mahatmas reveal the lilas of the Lord to me :) I was often reluctant to let rip myself (though there were times, of course, when I was more effusive than usual) but when I really got going, boy, could I bullshit with the best of 'em. :) (hindsight's a wonderful thing, is it not? )

Subject: hindsight From: gerry To: Dermot Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 10:22:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We used to say that the words in Satsang didn't really matter, the 'vibe' was the important thing. Weren't we kinda like gleeming little channels for the Satguru's love when we spoke from our hearts in holy company? I have to admit though, after a hot old evening of satsang, followed by Arti in its full tray swinging glory and an hour of group meditation, I was really, really, uh, uh, ready for bed, actually...

Subject: Re: hindsight From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:11:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you lightweight! ready for bed???? I got wanked off by my girlfriend (true) in front of the Living Lord at Holi in Miami Orange Bowl (I don't believe she was taking it all very seriously) and still managed to avoid having therapy for the guilt. Actually I think you just became my therapist, Gerry, as I have never told a soul about this. Now I know that I'm in real trouble.Oo-er!!

Subject: Re: hindsight From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 13:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you had your own little 'holi' spray operations, huh? Remind me to tell ya about my exploits in the furnace room of the Phoenix ashram sometime...

Subject: Aurobindo From: WALOB To: The Falcon Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:39:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I know quite a few premies who live in Pondecherri

Subject: Why ,WALOB? nt From: The Falcon To: WALOB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 09:04:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Aurubindo ?? From: I'm joking To: Dermot Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 18:43:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:            I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK I sleep all night and I work all day I wear panties and I wear a bra....... PUT ON WOMEN'S CLOTHING AND HANG AROUND IN BARS !

Subject: Hey here's one! From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:24:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We were talking a while ago, wondering who if anyone 'realized' the Nollige you can't get in Collige. I think I found one. Maybe it's the same guy who posted in that thread but, here 'tis (from The Great Worldwide Hookup): Paul Wayne Location: Maine - USA Message: Late in the evening of Dec 24th, 1972, in Concord, MA, the Knowledge of my inner being was revealed to me by Mahatma Rajaswar. I realized this Knowledge in the early part of 1973. I live with Truth. I'm looking for all of those ex-premies who at one time understood a wonderful experience of love and devotion in their hearts and believed in higher possibilities. If you loved arti, and if you loved the experience of being with others who had love in their hearts and were devoted to a higher truth, I would like to help you transition and move on through life beyond DLM or any other organization. Truth is still within you. If you can still believe in higher potential, I'd like to hear from you. Gosh,I really love arti, too, especially at five o'clock in the morning... (snicker) HEY! I just realized this guy is FISHIN' FOR DEVOTEES !!! Holy Cow, goober spun off another one. He'd like to "help us transition," blah, blah, blah. Well, he did realize the Nollige in record time, sheesh. But then maybe he's just a well intentioned cult exit counselor who happens to have realized the Nollige and Da Trut' Or not. YOU BE DA JUDGE!

Subject: Re: Hey here's one! From: Neville B To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:23:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, but anyone who loved arti cannot be taken seriously. (I'm convinced God has taste.) Arti: we used to sing a translation by Bal Baghwanji (aka Satpal) with a line about the futility of rites and rituals. So what were we doing at this point, with the candle and tray an' all, if not a ritual? (Cue a loud drip.) Neville B

Subject: Rites & rituals From: Carl To: Neville B Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 03:47:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But the spin was: 'without the knowledge of Satguru, rites and rituals won't reach the goal.' So, presumably, WITH the K, they will help you reach the goal. Now, what was that goal again?

Subject: Re: Rites & rituals From: AV To: Carl Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:23:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I GET A TURD? sorry, how gross!

Subject: To Neville - sign Idea From: Zelda To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 16:38:15 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Probably too late but I like this idea : BIG pictures of a pretentious yaght, house, car , with Marajis face cut out and pasted in each one. the phrase 'This Knowledge if Free --- But Gratitude is Reccommended.................. Yeah Right'

Subject: Another sign o' the times From: Richard To: Zelda Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 20:58:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Self-Knowledge: It's a Real No Brainer.

Subject: blocking carlos-to gerry From: janet schwartz To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 15:42:34 (PDT) Email Address: mensabrains@webtv.net Message: well thanks a lot ger... I have known carlos since we spent an amusing night in bed together in 1974 in Los Angeles--but until I read his candid posts on these boards, I never got to know him as well and as eye-openingly as I have here. Ya see, ger, back in the day, everything we talked about then had to be edited thru the filter of premie apprpoval, so neither of us ever really got to tell the truth about our lives, activities or thinking. only since joining in the range of provoking material here, have I been able to get to discuss any sort of real world, adult substance with carlos or any of the posters. now you're locking him out. great move. I know- you're gonna tell me to carry on in private email. that's great, ger, except that it takes this kind of open public forum to bring this many different topics to the table and throw them open for commentary. two people isolated aren't gonna have that wide a sprectrum of stimulus. what exactly did the guy do that set you off? is this place a popularity contest? is this a high school clique? is this a roving pack of feral dogs who cling together and snarl at anyone who doesnt smell like the pack? what gives? carlos isnt some troll, some hit and run driveby, here. he respects boundaries, he doesnt try to proseletyze anybody, he owns his shit--and he can carry on an intelligent discussion without profanity, ad hominem attacks, without degenerating to bullying, name calling, schoolyard immaturity or cheap html tricks that grow oh so tiresome. this is piquing me. I feel like I was sitting in a nice sunny café or after twilight in some nice little bistro, sipping and eating and having an amicable, animated chat with a longtime friend I hadn't talked to in years, and for no reason I can discern, the Maitre'D just walked up, collared my companion on the other side of the table, and threw him out the front door on the street!! What the hell?? We were'nt talking loud. We weren't drunk and disorderly. We've been paying our tab as we ordered stuff. We're appropriately dressed for the venue...We're even white, for chrissake! What the fuck--? did he fart in church or something? did I start my period and stain the damask upholstry without realizing it? did we forget to bribe the doorman or tip the waiter or something? Is the bouncer getting itchy to make some more room to let some Beautiful People in from the line out front? Did someone's Limo just drive up and drop off some Faces more Important than Ours? I know all my credit cards are good. I havent missed a payment on any of them...no kited checks, no forged signatures...got money in the bank... what could it be? did the Capo di Capo just ring you up in the back room and deliver some news I should know about?? I insist on an explanation. how come I can respond to all his postings strongly, and yet i don't feel the need to lock him out of the board--but you can't handle seeing him? which one of us has the problem, here?

Subject: Re: blocking carlos-to gerry From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet schwartz Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 18:20:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Many thanks for your kind words, and even more for your support. Obviously we have different perspectives on one important area in our lives (well, it is still important to me. I can't speak for you.) But after accounting for that, there is still one correction to your account that I feel I MUST make. The one night we shared a bed was in Denver, not here in LA. I know, because it was (going by your account of it in your post) more important to me than it seems to have been to you. (Which is OK, my feelings aren't hurt or anything.) You see, it was the first consummated sex act I'd had (at least, when I wasn't by myself) since I'd left the ashram. I know it wasn't a planned thing, on either of our parts. I don't have a clue as to why it didn't happen again, either. We were both in town for awhile after that, and I don't remember either of us being in any committed relationships. But I want you to know, even tho we ended up being only a one-night thing you were never a one-night stand to me. And even if the obsessive way we both related to M & K back then did limit our sharing, as you say it did, I have always remembered you fondly and regarded the friendship we shared for awhile as one of the special ones of my life, that have helped make the hard times of this life worth it. Gerry isn't really very good at blocking, Janet. But not everybody whom he throws out without cause will know how to access a whole host of anonimisers so they can go around his blocks, as I do. So, IMO, you are right to oppose him. He's taken to erasing my posts now. I hope you see this one before he does. He is also now offering Roupell's Home phone number and address to people. I've never before been a supporter of the Doc's, because a lot of exes who I regard as people of good will, like Katie, were opposed to him. But if gerry takes it upon himself to out David in the EXACT SAME WAY that CAC did to SIR David, well, I will suggest you exes ask him to resign as FA, and I will henceforth be a supporter of the Doc's. Which will include, gerry, offering him my services, if he wishes them, under a limited power of attorney, to seek criminal and civil sanctions against you for exposing his kids (assuming he has any; most of us who got K way back in the '70s do, you know') It is funny, gerry. You and I both agreed that the way CAC outed Sir D was downright evil. That was what made CAC just too much for me, so that I opposed them openly even tho I feared some exes would try and make political hay out of my opposition. And now I oppose you for sinking to the same, evil depths that you cursed the CAC monsters for.

Subject: Escalation - to Carlos From: Katie To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 11:37:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Carlos - Since you mentioned my name, I felt that it was OK to reply. Here are my feelings about the current situation. No, I don't think you should have been blocked. But I also think it is something you and Gerry could have worked out without all the public announcements that you made about the blocking. This served, IMHO, to escalate the whole situation, and resulted in people making all kinds of personal remarks about Gerry on Symp and LG, which, since Gerry is HUMAN, probably made him even more angry - or whatever. And now personal insults are flying everywhere. I don't believe that you personally enjoy this escalation, but some people do (maybe because they are bored or something?) and seek to add fuel to the fire, resulting in even more escalation. I'm not even sure what you said in your original post which made Gerry so angry he blocked you - I guess you can see now that that original issue has been obscured completely. But I think your assumption that the FA of ANY forum should always act fairly and impartially, and deserves to be criticized by everyone if he/she does not, just doesn't allow for the fact that FA's are human beings, and that it's a hard job which wears on any particular FA. I'm sure CD would agree with me on this, BTW, as would Chuck and anyone else who has actually done the job. The personal insults and the 'advice' from other people who don't want to do the job, but think they know how it should be done, really get to one. I guess what I am saying is that if you had cut Gerry some slack in the first place, this whole thing might have not escalated to the extent it has. I don't agree that Gerry has become 'more evil' or whatever, in the past few months - I actually think he's generally doing a good job in keeping the OT fights off this forum, and letting people post on topic (this fight excluded, naturally). In re the outing David Roupell issue - no, I don't think Gerry should have printed David's address and phone number, but I do understand his frustration with David R after David has littered this forum for YEARS littered this forum with posts that are frivolous, distracting, derogatory, or whatever - under a number of false names. Frankly, I would have blocked the guy forever if I could have, and I am sure Gerry would too. I don't see that David R posts here for any reason except to be irritating and to disrupt sincere conversation (there are other forums where his posts are welcome ) and he's obviously succeeded in doing that, and in provoking Gerry. The guy has been asked to leave (under a number of identities) numerous time, but has refused. While I don't agree AT ALL with Gerry publishing his address and phone number, I can certainly understand his frustration. And I don't agree with it being equivalent to CAC - Gerry did it under his own name, and Roupell has recourse to have the posts removed (if any still exist) by complaining to Hotboards (although his subsequent posts to and about Gerry have seemed to negate any further case he might have.) CAC was a cowardly act perpetuated anonymously. The highly charged emotional nature of the topics we discuss on this forum almost REQUIRES that we cut each other some slack if we are to be able to communicate at all. Do I think Gerry should have cut you more slack? Yes - but I also think you should have done the same for him. Anyway, these are just my feelings about the matter, as always...I don't claim to know what's 'right' here. Take care, Katie

Subject: Re: Escalation - to Carlos From: arlos - To Katie To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:33:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Katie, I did cut gerry slack. BEFORE he blocked me he had been being negative and in a name calling mode for weeks. He'd accused me of being the guy who he claims was stalking him by having a computer call him up on the phone. (I believed that someone was calling till he started acting out even further in this current mess. Now I don't know what to believe. I hope he is still sane, cause if he is this will eventually work itself out.) He has obsessively claimed I used a handle, Garble, when I never did and even tho a number of exes pointed out to him that the writing style was completely unlike mine. (And, Lord knows, nobody has claimed I was slick enough to fake that different a style!) I do see your point about escalation. I responded, first, with a nasty post, sent thru 1 of the many free anonymizer proxy servers out there that make blocking not rally possible on public, no password needed, BBs. But I know you are familiar with the idea of the importance of not letting other people run roughshod over you. And all I did was answer an exes questions about why I don't trust Dettmers. That was all I did. I haven't, and won't, post on here, Symp, Symp II, F8 or LG how to find ways around blocks that work right thru the blocked ISP/IP> That WOULD be being disruptive. But if standing up to him is being disruptive, that I will continue to do. On the other hand, this is being posted without using any of my tricks. I don't know if gerry has to reblock me from time to time and he forgot to, or if he has again unblocked me. But, if you are reading this, gerry, if YOU are willing to letme post, as long as I do it in accord with the stated guidelines of the forum, I'll let my beef with you end here. As I respect Katie, and she may well be right, hell, almost certainly is right, that I went to far in some of the things I did to stand up to you, I'll even apologize for my part in this. Gerry, for the times I stooped to name calling and insulting invective, and any other inapropriate remarks I may have made I am sorry. This is NOT a conditional apology. I do not ask you to offer me one. As a seperate issue I DO ask you to do your part in establishing a civil leval of discourse between us. The ball is now in your court. (Tho I'd like to state again that I was NOT blocked as I posted this. gerry may well have been the one who made the first move towards peace here.)

Subject: Holy Cow Carlos you got that Garbled !!! From: gerry To: arlos - To Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 17:29:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So you're admitting you're behind the calls, eh? Well, you'll be hearing from Patty's lawyers on this one, big boy. She's suing for loss of consortium and that's gonna be expensive... www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Garble2.jpg

Subject: take some zyprexa gerry From: janet to gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 00:36:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: the way you seem to be confusing or hearing things in what other people say to you, that they did not say, is eerily reminiscent of how my son sounds when he skimps on his schizophrenia meds and his thought disorder starts to break thru into his participation in conversatins. there is a flavor of the disorder that comes witha paranoid streak to it, in which you interpret things you hear or see to mean that people are aiming insidious acts at you, when in fact they aren't even interested in you. oddly enough, it's another form of a narcississtic disorder, in htat it revolves around the belief that people are focusing on you specially. so that in your beliefs,it puts you at the epicenter of everything that happens or that you think happens in your vicinity. gerry, I don't know whether you are posting these things to be funny in parody, or if you actually do believe that carlos is behind these odd phone calls you were getting. i know him well enough to tell you, flat out, it ain't him. it's coming from somehwere else. i get calls like that too sometimes, ger. the difference is, I blow em off and i don't care who the hell they were. i get nothing, they get nothing. wasted airtime. null set. you, on the other hand, get exercised about it. go looking for perps. name names, make accusations, try to catch em. i say colonel mustard did it in the study with a wrench! except that someone else produces the card with colonel mustard, thus deflating that hope. seriously gerry. if you arent joking about how emotional you got over that defense of michael dettmers, or believing Carlos is Garble, or that its carlos who is aggravating your anonymous phone experience--then i am beginning to get concerned for you ger. you just might have the beginnings of something that will need a prescription to echeive relief. it sounds an awful lot like my kid does when his symptoms start to grow. ask a doctor to check you over, just to be sure. and no, I am not posting this out of nastiness, but in genuine beginnings of worry.

Subject: Re: take some zyprexa gerry From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet to gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 17:05:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never seriosly considered the possibility that he might have some disorder. I just thought that, in my hope to find a few exes I could befriend in my early days on these BBs, that I'd misjudged the guy when he started to det wierd on me later. I don't have the experiance you do, from living with your son, or that others, like Cynthia do, from having had to cope with such things themselves. Alcoholism, complicated by drug abuse, is pretty much the only thing I've got either kind of experiance in. So, while I will say it makes sense to me, I don't really have much to back my feeling. But I cab say that from his disclosures and others comments he does NOT apear alcoholic. God, I don't know if I'd rather you were right (but he finds recovery) or that you are wrong (but he finds growth). How to guess which way he'd have better oddds, and therefore wish it for him?

Subject: Don't worry I eat Patty's Serafem daily From: gerry To: janet to gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 09:29:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now Janet, take a close look at the pic I posted, and since you were really ah, upfront and personal with Carlos, maybe you can tell me if that's him or not. That would take a lot of the mystery out of this conspiracy for me...

Subject: where's the picture? From: janet To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:41:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: lead me to it and i can tell you if it's carlos or not. if its that stupid cartoon, go away.you're on that website too. want me to find the one of you? hell, every one of us got nailed by that artist. i can lay em alllllll out for ya..

Subject: You're too late From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 13:20:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Nanny.jpg

Subject: Re: Holy Cow Carlos you got that Garbled !!! From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:08:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bad time to be joking about civil suits, gerry. Or did you just misread another of my posts, to convert my stating you incorectly accused me of being your phone harrasser?

Subject: i AM CURIOUS (yellow) From: GERRY To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:17:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now Gar, er Carlos, do you or do you not cop to these offenses? Step up to step one, buddy, things go a lot smoother after that. so stop with the calls, already. Uncle! Uncle!

Subject: Re: i AM CURIOUS (yellow) From: Carlos - To gerry To: GERRY Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:26:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not Garble. I have never used that alias. If you ever were recieving harrasing cyber phone calls, which I am beginning to question, I didn't makt them. I don't even have your phone # anymore, and never gave it to anyone, so I can not have any responsibility of any kind for those calls. gerry, if that wasn't a joke, seek help. Seriously; such an obsession can't be a sign of good mental health.

Subject: Clarification re the Garble thing, and btw From: Katie To: arlos - To Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:16:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Carlos - The name 'Garble' came from a link someone posted about 'typical' posters on forums/bulletin boards. When Gerry calls you 'Garble' he is comparing you to the personality described on this link (I do not have the link anymore, but maybe someone else does), NOT accusing you of being an anonymous poster, etc. In re the rest of your post - well, all I can say is I appreciate it, and hope other people will too. I am glad you got my point about escalation. You are correct that I don't like when people run roughshod over me or anyone else (and I understand the impulse to speak out against it) but from what I've gathered (and I may be wrong), it does sound like you and Gerry have been able to communicate off-forum at times. And, as I've learned by experience, once one brings conflicts into the public arena, everyone gets to say their opinion on them, and often that results in escalation of a personality conflict into a civil war. I have never thought that you were the kind of person who would make anonymous phone calls, etc. - I find it hard to believe that Gerry would think so also, unless he was feeling extreme frustration or suffering from lack of sleep - which might have well been the case. Actually I had - don't have anymore - his phone # as well, so I could have been equally under suspicion. But, like me, I think you think those kind of tactics suck - and ultimately backfire. I've 'known' Gerry for several years via the internet (I think I even talked to him on the phone one time), and I believe he is ultimately reasonable, and ultimately sane - albeit moody, just like the rest of us. I greatly appreciate his willingness to take on the FA responsibility here - he did this once before, actually, and endured severe abuse from his supposed 'Co-FA', so I respect him for agreeing to do it once again. (Also, I have corresponded with Patty, and she is a wonderful person :)) BTW, Carlos, I forgot to tell you that what you said to Janet was REALLY nice. Maybe too personal for a public forum, but still REALLY nice. It would have helped ME if some of the premie guys I knew had said that to me, believe me. It does sound like the two of you have remained friends, despite all, and I think that's a credit to both you and Janet. Take care, Carlos, and I hope you and Gerry can work this out. Katie

Subject: Re: Clarification re the Garble thing, and btw From: Carlos tp Katie To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:21:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There was, for at least 2 or 3 posts, a poster using the handle 'Garble'. gerry accused me of being the auther of the Garble posts. An ex tried to point out to him how it didn't make sense to believe it was ne, from the differences in the way we write, from the differences in our attitudes. So, while your explanation sounds reasonable, and maybe that even is what he is doing, sometimes, ne also did claim Garble was an alias of mine. Thanks for what you said about my response to Janet. I normally wouldn't go THAT open in public. But Janet had mentioned the episode in her post, and I thought it wouldn't stay up long, so not to many people would see it. gerry was deleting posts then, including mine. As to talking off forum. When he and I were doing that I couldn't even get him to stop preaching antiM stuff at me by eMail. And I have far more reason to distrust him now than I did then. Pity, cause I'd like to move on, too.

Subject: Re: Clarification re the Garble thing, and btw From: gerry To: Carlos tp Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:26:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos go away. It's a joke you're too dumb to get. Forget it. I know all about it because it's MY JOKE. Sheesh. Look, buddy, pal of mine I love ya, but there's TOO MUCH Carlos on the board right now. Go away. No excuses now. This is an ex board. You have the Symposium and Lifes Grate to do all the out-gassing you want. It's not like I'm muzzling you, I'm just asking that you cut your posting down a little. That's not asking too much, now is it? How about just contributing a few posts (like two) per week. Will that satisfy you? Deal?

Subject: Re: Clarification re the Garble thing, and btw From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:38:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll compromise. I won't initiate discusions till September at the earliest, unless in self-defense. But I will NOT decline to reply as I see fit in a thread that happened entirely as a consequence of bad behaviour on your part. After all, you don't want me to be your enabler, gerry, do you? (MY joke.)

Subject: Why Carlos, that's three times tonight! From: gerry To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:46:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your jokes that is! (It's a good thing you told us they were jokes, btw, as some might not appreciate your rich sense of humor as I do.) Anyway, I'll compromise. I won't initiate discusions till September at the earliest, unless in self-defense. Terms accepted. But I will NOT decline to reply as I see fit in a thread that happened entirely as a consequence of bad behaviour on your part. Hey, now this is s bit of a sticky point for me, Carlos, but well, OK I'll begrugedly accept to this rather outrageous demand. After all, you don't want me to be your enabler, gerry, do you? (MY joke.) Good one, bro!

Subject: Re: Why Carlos, that's three times tonight! From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:29:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Acceptance of compromise noted. Best wishes for your return to civilian life. NB: re my jokes: My sense of humour is still one of the sickest things about me; I know others often fail to recognize it.

Subject: And I forgot to say.... From: Katie To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:25:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again, Carlos - One thing I meant to say, and didn't, is that you probably should talk to Michael Dettmers directly. I know you 'knew' him or at least knew OF him in the old days, but I think you'd agree that we've all changed since then. As you know, I don't think he is lying, or prevaricating, or dissembling, or whatever - I have found Michael Dettmers to be a most honorable person (even when that honor brings him under criticism from ex-premies - and he has gotten plenty of THAT). I know you respect Susan H. (me too, immensely) and she thinks the same about MD. Take care, Katie

Subject: Re: And I forgot to say.... From: Carlos - To Katie To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:33:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I here what you are saying. I believe he lives in the Washinton, DC area, right? Or is that Donner? Anyway, next time I'm out that way I'll try and allow some time for a face to face. I have Scott T's phone #, and youe eMail. One of the 2 of you should be able to facillitate a meet. And my elderly mom lives in Virginia, right accross the river from DC. So I do hope to get back there in the next few months. She's 80, and frail. I don't know how much time she has left. But to be honest, a face to face isn't likely to do it. I've met to many fraud folks in the business world, many of whom were very charming face to face. But I won't shut the door on it, and I'll try to be openminded.

Subject: Escalation - exactly From: gerry To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:02:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had actually unblocked Carlos and was way over it and was posting politely on this board to Carlos when he chose to, yes, escalate things, with his posts on other forums. Of course, I know Carlos can get around the block easily as he has demonstrated here and I have demonstrated at Life's Grate. So why is he screaming bloody murder now? I can only speculate, that while Carlos might be basically a nice person, he has a few screws loose unfortunately, and he has become a bit of a pest around here. I take particular umbrage at his characterization of Michael Dettmers as a liar. It's been almost a full year now since the CAC attack and my seizure and ascendency to this lofty position and you gotta remember what it's like with the responsibility for reading most, if not all posts and then dealing with people like roupell and yes, Carlos. It gets nauseating after a while. Really. I stand by my posting of Roupell's very public information which I found on the web and if that proves to be an effective vaccine against him, I say yeay for me. For all us, actually. I certainly could live without reading another Carlos or Roupell post, couldn't you?

Subject: Naked follies From: JohnT To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:27:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you gotta remember what it's like with the responsibility for reading most, if not all posts and then dealing with people like roupell and yes, Carlos. It gets nauseating after a while. Really. Sure does. The twisted heartlessness and dishonesty of premies disgusts me too. Even if they are 'nice'. There is a big difference between premies who come here to sort their heads out, and those like *Q* and DR who come here to lie and disrupt. And silly old Carlos, prancing around naked in his delusion in front of folks who've seen through the costume of cult think. Yeuch! Wierd or what?

Subject: i want carlos here. DR?-pheh! [nt] From: janet to gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 00:48:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Yes and no From: Katie To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:30:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry - I could certainly live without EVER reading another David Roupell post on this forum (I don't care what he writes elsewhere.) I disagree with you re Carlos's posts, though - I agree with what Livia wrote below. Yes, his assumption that Michael Dettmers is lying bothers me as well (and we have argued about it - I've always found Michael to be a person of extremely high integrity). But Carlos is posting his opinion under his own name in a place where Michael can confront him directly - I think that needs to be allowed. I also think that Carlos is articulating what some other premies may think, and thus it's probably good to get it out in the open where it can be discussed. You wrote: It's been almost a full year now since the CAC attack and my seizure and ascendency to this lofty position and you gotta remember what it's like with the responsibility for read most, if not all posts and then dealing with people like roupell and yes, Carlos. It gets nauseating after a while. Yeah, I remember... Might I suggest that you allow Carlos to post here and NOT read his posts? He has always followed the guidelines and I know there are other people here who will read his posts and alert you if he posts something against the guidelines (I don't think he will.) In re posting Roupell's personal information - I don't think it's a solution and just seems to provide him with more flaming fuel, which seems to be the reason he posts at all in the first place. However, I don't have any other solution, except just asking the guy not to post (I realize you have done this), and complaining to his ISP if he keeps doing it? I also think you need a break - being the FA here tends to be a burn-out job for one person (for the reasons I mentioned above, and the reasons you mentioned). If there is anyone else who posts on this forum that would share FA responsibilities, I think they should step up for at least a trial period. I can testify that one doesn't have to be a computer whiz to FA a Hotboards forum. Also, Gerry, I appreciate that you have been under a lot of stress (having been there and done that), but I really need to say that what you said about Janet was mean, and I thought you WANTED Robyn to post here? I hope both of them will keep posting.

Subject: Words of wisdom and experience, Katie [nt] From: JohnT To: Katie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 14:31:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: premie spam NT From: no To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:42:00 (PDT) Email Address: Message: nt

Subject: Re: Yes and no From: Carlos - To Katie, gerry etal To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:51:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do not believe I have ever called Dettmers a liar. I have, on several occasions, stated what most of the things I find jarring or inconsistant in the totality of his statements recorded on EPO are. I don't see how exes can disaprove of that. Less documentation is deemed enough to go past calling something an opinion and calling it a fact again and again, both on EPO and its associated BBs and their successors (I believe it was F^ that cut the ties and became fully at arms lenght, wasn't it?) And,like JHB, I leave room for proof to be presented to me. Proof, tho, not just assertions. And, unlike JHB, I do point out that in my professional career I have been paid literally thousands of dollars to root out inconsistancies in companie's, project's and just plain vanilla investment offeringsthat have saved my clients (or THEIR clients, when I was doimg the Due dilagence for a brokerage) literally millions of dollars . And that only counts the ones that later hit the news and were proven frauds! Perhaps it is the fact that it is the opinion of a professional lie buster doubtind Dettmers that bothers gerry so much. If so, let me ease your fears, gerry. The 2 situations are not at all analagous. My cynism, which does clearly play a part in my doubt of Dettmers, and my bias in favor of M, clearly make this one where I'd have to recuse myself if it were being done for a client. It is only my personal, not my professional opinion.

Subject: A liar sniffing out liars... From: gerry To: Carlos - To Katie, gerry etal Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 17:01:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well I guess it takes one to know one. You did call Dettmers a liar on more than one occasion except you (or Garble) spelled it 'lier.' Hey maybe that lets you off the hook, huh!

Subject: could you do it to maharaji? From: janet to carlos To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:07:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: carlos, if you were employed professionally to uncover unethical or untruthful methods that companies were engaging in, for the sake of doing due diligence for clients, couldn't you turn around and exercise those same skills to investigate Rawat, for the sake of yourself??? here, again, I am just incredulous that you haven't applied the same hard good sense that you have learned serves you best, to the central thing you have given your life to for so many years. for me, as soon as i 'got' the 12 steps, I just as fast 'got it' that maharaji is an alcoholic, and that all that had been wrong with my years with him fell into place when I applied the 12 step credo to it. you have not only that, but professional background verifying skills that I don't have, with which to probe out the real transactions that make rawat's empire appear as it does to the world. you may fear what you will find, but don't you owe it to yourself to committ to doing it? and irony of ironies, if what you find is all legitimate and blameless, you can thank michael dettmers for having seen to it that rawat was set up for life that way, while he was the one given that job to do for him! its a matrix: either maharaji is spotless and dettmers is shifty- or dettmers is spotless and maharaji is shifty- or both dettmersa dn maharaji are shifty- or both dettmers and maharaji are spotless. right now your view and ours is based more on opinion, feeling, emotion, gut reaction and preference than fact. all things considered, wouldnt it be wiser to base one's view on fact? so--if you know how to, go find the facts. you need to know the truth. for that matter, we do too.

Subject: Re: could you do it to maharaji? From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet to carlos Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 17:22:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, the reaon I was open to Dettmers (at first) when I started reading him on EPO was, in large part my knowing already of things he had done with, for example the Trust in Switzerland. But it was a non premie (as far as I know) lawyer, brought in by an LA lawyer I count amongst my friends, who deserves the kind of credit you are giving to Dettmers, IMO. And I have had a privikeged position, in terms of some of the money things. I have more than enough first hand knowledge of a good number of the people involved, from having helped them in a small number of the deals (which, unfortunately, didn't come off in the ones I was involved in personally), that brought in significant chunks of change to trusts that would, quiete legitamately, benefit him or members of his family. I'll tell you that; you know me well enough to maybe understand I'm not lying. But since I can't PROVE it, even to you, without giving up facts and relationships I have no right to disclose...why waste my time telling a gerry, who not only won't believe me but will cuss me out while calling me a liar? I don't know that M would come up spotless if I did a professional job of looking into him. I've never been THAT far in. But on the money thing, trust me, he DOES come up clean as silk.

Subject: Re: A liar sniffing out liars... From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:41:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am not garble. And liar is not a word I'd be likely to misspell, nor, considering where the keys are on a keyboard, is that a typo I'd have made. Must have been Garble.

Subject: Re: music education classes :) From: hamzen To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:54:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well gorgeous one, it looks like I've got to add you to my music mailing list, after all anyone already up with elvis costello has to be open for stuff eh :) tried e-mailing yer but it got rewturned, if you still have mine could you mail us? Your garden sounds gorgeous by the way, well chilled out. And if selene, pat c or robyn read this, fixed me machine and got some dosh so tapes on the way this week, promise. and about bloody time hamzen

Subject: Elvis Costello? From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 17:48:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We still have some old vinyls and tapes around somewhere. Uh oh, Patty just told me she heard 'Alison' at Walgreen Drugs the other day. Looks like he's gone muzak, matey! She just harvested a huge bowl of fava beans and some gorgeous onions while I loaf away here. I think I've reached the amnesiac stage...

Subject: Hi Hamzen From: Katie To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:03:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The lovely Ms. Robyn has my e-mail address - I don't think I still have yours. Not sure I'm up with your musical tastes, though I always liked Elvis C., also Graham Parker, Nick Lowe and Dave Edmunds, etc. etc. But they were popular during the 1980's - aren't they kind of out of date now? Glad you got good reports on my garden - I need to go sit out there right now :). TC, Katie

Subject: No and No From: gerry To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:41:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, I love this. It's stimulating, not stressful. That's your point of view. Did you read what Janet said to me? I thought it was hilarious and my line I assume you're objecting to (How was it with Janet, Carlos) is NOT mean. Come on, lighten up. Roupell deserved what he got and I'd do it again. I think Carlos has had more than his fair share of bandwidth here. After all, this is an ex-premie forum, and since I do all the work, I get to kick him out if I see fit to do so. That's my decsion. He can't post here for the time being. and now apparently he wants to make this into something personal. Well it's not. I'm just sick of him and his broken record, adios Carlos, baby.

Subject: Re: No and No From: Carlos - To grry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:58:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gerry, in the hopes of not destroying a chance for peace between us I'll merely point out that it would be bad for your integrity to block people who follow the guidelines for posting here. Nor do I feel it would support the kind of image of exes I am sure you would want what I believe you call 'fencesitters' to have.

Subject: Awwwww gerry you old softy you... From: Quiet! To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:15:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: go on let him post.*Q*

Subject: he;d spell 'liar' as 'lier' From: this is probably garble To: Quiet! Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:16:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he is, hands down, the most illiterate speller these boards have ever seen. janet

Subject: Re: he;d spell 'liar' as 'lier' From: Quiet! To: this is probably garble Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 05:18:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: wow an other aussie huh?*Q*

Subject: Re: Awwwww gerry you old softy you... From: Ron To: Quiet! Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: chack what Drek posted! s t e a k a n d c h e e s e |home|faq|exes|pics|movies|audio|misc|other| Name Date Size --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- 1. traindog3.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:41 2002 106k 2. traindog2.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:28 2002 110k 3. shitsearch.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:17 2002 39k 4. resistant.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:06 2002 26k 5. mrPUDding.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:04 2002 33k 6. gatherday3_043.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:50:01 2002 118k 7. feeltbabt.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:58 2002 24k 8. 12_fingers.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:57 2002 18k 9. cl-early.jpg Fri Jul 26 07:49:57 2002 16k 10. goatsergery/ Sun Jul 21 07:40:35 2002 512b 11. titfuck.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:20 2002 17k 12. poweroflove3.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:18 2002 28k 13. poweroflove2.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:17 2002 31k 14. poweroflove1.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:13 2002 37k 15. peppercrack.jpg Sun Jul 21 07:37:11 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Subject: No, I didn't post that, thank you! From: Roger eDrek To: Ron Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:56:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, weenie-head, thanks for keeping me in the forefront of your consciousness. Somehow, somewhere I must have been a great influence in your life. Too bad you don't spend more of your time realizing the precious knowledge that your MASTER has revealed to you. But, I guess that I'm far more interesting that jabbing oneself in the eyeballs, aren't I?

Subject: Wow Ron/Drek , great stuff. From: Quiet! To: Ron Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 23:20:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: er do ya think we could use those pics in the proposed sexchat room? We (gerry and I) gotta get some more money into the site. Ya recom if we charged say 1 cent (US of course not Aussie) per day, we couild get enough to keep 4 um 7 a float. Oh and by the way I thin k you should get royalities Rog , as I know ya told me a long time ago you were broke....... no worries mate, we will see ya right! *take care**Q*

Subject: More premie spam above From: Marianne To: Quiet! Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 08:09:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This stuff doesn't come from exes. It's just bored premies, littering the site.

Subject: Its premie spam above From: Quiet! To: Marianne Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 08:29:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: right agin Marianne.......Im an premie. And gerry wanted the place livened up didnt he. Im sure you read his offer to me on LG. Ps are you the Poster who goes by the name of The National Inguirer? ppss excuse the spelling me Dragon Naturally Speaking Program is on the blink.*Q*

Subject: Well, you're the FA From: Katie To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:51:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brian used to say that the number one unwritten forum guideline was 'Don't piss off the FA'. (I agree, actually.) And as far as finding it stimulating, personally, I prefer the conversation/communication that was (and is still) going on here between Livia, Will, La-Ex, Seymour, and others. But I'm as guilty of adding to THIS thread as anyone, so who knows. Gotta go - the cats want to sit outside :). And I actually only meant to post to say hi to Seymour, so you see how addicting this can get! Take care, Gerry

Subject: Re: Well, you're the FA From: gerry To: Katie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 10:16:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You kinda misunderstood me. The 'stimulating' part for me is reading the great posts, and hearing from new exes. The other stuff is a drain, yes, but not the overall job of FA. No offense, but you do seem drawn to the 'fight' threads, Katie :)

Subject: Addicted to.... From: Seymour To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:58:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi again Katie, Not much to say on this thread as I don't know anything about this Carlos and Gerry business but I know what you mean about this forum mallarky being addictive. I only popped in because I had a few hours to spare and I've ended up posting half a dozen times over the weekend. Mind you there are worse things to be addicted to. If only I had the time I would enjoy being a regular and must try and make more time to read and make the occassional contribution - on the whole I still thing premies & exes are a great bunch of people who try to put the 'inner life' that deals with ethics, relationships, self-improvement, flourishing as a human being etc. above the normal ambitions that are fed to us through the media and society. Although apart from the time needed I think I got tired of talking about M & K a long time ago, yet the philosophical, psychological, spiritual? debate will always be a necessary part of my life ( not to mention music/art...). Take Care. C.U.around :) Seymour p.s. I hope you caught my reply to you down below ( I'm sure you did)

Subject: Your reply was great - and more From: Katie To: Seymour Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Seymour - I am really GLAD to see you posting again (and I agree that there are far worse things to be addicted to!) I hope you do have more time to post, because you have a lot of good things to say. Of course, I saw your reply below (sorry for not answering btw), and I was particularly struck by some of the things you said. You wrote: As we talked about many times before, the feeling of being in the exclusive group of people led by the Lord of the Universe, and being certain that you have access to the map that can guide you though this complicated and precarious life is hard to walk away from, especially when going back to the 'I know nothing' state of mind. We also discussed the side effects of believing in the mirage and agreed that you can never go back once you have seen it for what it is - yet seeing desert ahead of you is much less interesting than looking at the mirage. (snip) I, and many premies, loved him [M] dearly and would have (and in many cases did) sacrificed our own needs and desires for him. Like a lover, just knowing he was around and that he cared about our well being, was enough to see you through bad times. Having faith in his integrity and dedication to making each one of us individually 'realised' was a great comfort. All that plus he had the wisdom and power to make it all happen. Ahh well...we also believed in Father Christmas ( although I can't quite remember going through the same upset when I found he was not real ). I think it's also to do with the personal sense of betrayal that lingers on and not just the disappearance of our 'spiritual path' once we realised that he was not all he was cracked up to be. I really didn't feel that there was anything I could add to your post, but you brought up so much that was important. The feeling of betrayal, the lingering sense of something missing, and so forth. As you probably know, I only followed Maharaji for five years (starting in 1972, when I was 16), and was only inspired to post on the ex-premie forum because I found out that a premie who I had been very close to had committed suicide. Since then, I've met many many people (including you) who followed Maharaji - at least on the fringes - for 20-30 years before they decided to leave, and I have felt humbled before these persons' experiences. Almost all the people I have met who have done this have been very intelligent, sensitive, and perceptive people - not 'blind' or 'morally bankrupt' - but idealistic and moral people who TRULY wanted something better in life - and were willing to work for it. When I read posts like the one of yours I quoted above, or Livia's answer to La-ex below, I really don't know what to say. I don't think I was smarter, or more perceptive, to be able to stop following Maharaji after so few years. I think I was less trusting, and more cynical, and I don't particularly see those as virtues (especially at age 21, which I was when I left). Basically, my trust in ANYTHING had been broken when I was still very young, and my idealism too. I've had to work for years to believe that anything matters, and that life is not 'just to die' (to quote Lou Reed). You wrote: on the whole I still think premies & exes are a great bunch of people who try to put the 'inner life' that deals with ethics, relationships, self-improvement, flourishing as a human being etc. above the normal ambitions that are fed to us through the media and society. Although apart from the time needed I think I got tired of talking about M & K a long time ago, yet the philosophical, psychological, spiritual? debate will always be a necessary part of my life ( not to mention music/art...). I mostly agree here. I didn't really know any current premies when I started posting here, but have met some since who I really like - and whom I respect, and accept as well (I have also met some current premies who I think are jerks - even in my life in the Real World!). I think, though, that ex-premies have a bond in that we all believed in something (M & K), and then somehow, sometime, made the decision to leave our belief system behind, no matter how hard it was to do that. Although, as I said, sometimes I don't feel that I can contribute very much (especially when ex-premies who were premies for a LONG time are speaking), I do think we all need to support each other. Even though I wasn't a premie for very long - compared to most of the other people here - when I found the forum I really felt that I could FINALLY talk about those five years of my life I had spent as a premie. It meant a lot to me. Anyway, I hope you'll keep on posting when you get time. Love, Katie

Subject: Re: blocking carlos-to gerry From: Robyn To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:39:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Janet and Carlos, First Janet, I wanted to agree with your origianl post except for the sex part of course :) and for the, we're even white, remark which I feel is never I line I'd cross even in sarcasim. Other then that I found your post, as it described Carlos as a decient and valuable poster and in it's humor, to be something I wanted to acknowledge. Love, Robyn

Subject: Re: blocking carlos-to gerry From: Carlos - To Janet To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 01:12:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My apologies. I should have sent you the more personal parts of my reply to your post by eMail. I've seen to what depths of depravity gerry seems to have sunk in the last several months, and known he would be a jackass about it. I thought he'd just delete it, as he has several of my posts he failed to stop me from posting. My main concern was would you see it befor he deleted it.

Subject: Hilarious thread, everybody read From: gerry To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 18:54:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Carlos, monsters are rearing their ugly heads. How was it with Janet, btw?

Subject: Re: Hilarious thread, everybody read From: janet 2 carlos, gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:01:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sigh... i suppose I should have been expecting that shot. yeah, gerry, sure-- what the hell--that's what guys always want to ask other guys, isn't it?? mind if i listen in? I'd like to know how I was, too. No one ever tells me, after all....I mean, since everybody's listening. why not. I'm the one who declared 'no sacred cows', so let's have it out in the open. yeah, carlos, how was I? lol lol lol lol [oh come on, people. let's be honest here. don';t you wonder how you were, thinking on it years after the fact, from the other persons' point of view? doesnt everybody, male or female, wonder 'how they were'?? i sure hear enough people go around telling others they're the best they'll ever have, and all that nonsense. so OK> here we are. gerry's trying to be male conspiratorial, here, but I have never been one to hesitate jumping in and competing with the guys, so rather than be all demure and modestly insulted, I'll put on my game face and go along with it and grin and say'yeah, how was I?' Now, of course, Carlos, gentleman that you are, I'm sure you'll give him your best james bondian smile and advise him that the information is for your eyes only. BTW--the use of the term 'amusing' wasn't meant as a demeaning description, lest that impression get its foot in the door. as one night stands go, i chose that wording to highlight the memorable sense of the encounter being remarkably free of so much of the ridiculous drama, entanglement, 'relationship' agonies and silly adolescent 'ooh, this is IT' fantasies that I realize were present in so many other of my chapters. and yes, it is peculiar that there was never a followup between us, in subsequent times. i guess you can never step in the same river twice, as the saying goes. sometimes life only gives you the one experience and then the currents carry you elsewhere. but Carlos, i remember clearly it happened in los angeles. sheldon's apt, 'wilton zero', down by paramount pictures, the ground floor one where we entered and exited thru the garden window. we had witnesses in the house at the same time, too. jan, elliot, sandy, paul, adi..maybe even rob. however: if you remember a denver occasion, then there had to be a second! yet i can't bring such a memory back to recall! what year? what location? what events surrounding the time? it may not be you that i am blocking out of memory. it may well be some scenario I have awful associations with, connected with that address or the people I lived with then, that I don't want to relive. I lived thru some pretty awful circumstances to stay in the premie world. write to me in email and describe what you're referring to. maybe it will suddenly come back all at once. but the los angeles one, I have no doubt about. i remember it vividly. and for god's sake, please don't assess yourself by what i say i can remember. go by what YOU remember.

Subject: Re: Hilarious thread, everybody read From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 01:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes Carlos, monsters are rearing their ugly heads. How was it with Janet, btw? --- God, you can be an ass, can't you? Would you think it socially correct if I asked you how it was with someone in your life? Or are you a social retard? Is that why you don't see how you have almost become like the CAC scum you used to detest?

Subject: Regerry, he's quite harmless really From: hamzen To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:53:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He just gets these power surges every few months where he loses the plot, goes haywire for a cuppla weeks, then comes to and acts like he doesn't remember a thing. I reckon it's either that patty's no longer letting him have his wicked and perverse way, or he suddenly gets embarrassed that he was supposedly a libertarian once, or maybe his crack cocaine supply has run out. Hold your breath and count to 100, and you'll see he's back to normal, well normalish, but then gerry is gerry, and would we want him any other way. Remember noones perfect, well only one person, well maybe, well obviously not, but lila's are as lila does. Hey and best of luck with the romance matey :)

Subject: Re: Regerry, he's quite harmless really From: Carlos - To Hamzen To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:06:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your comments and advice re: gerry,Hamzen. As to the romance... No offense to Janet, but I'm not even finished with negotiations on the pro[erty division in my divorce! I was just copping to what was, to a friend who it sounded to me didn't know her friendship had been very important to me.

Subject: Nothin wrong with gerry matey! From: Jethro To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:04:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You try and run this forum then!!!!! I know you like Carlos,but there again you also became a premie didn't you? (Hmmmm on re-reading this I can't remember what I meant by that, but I'll leave it in any way) In a strange way David Roupell's clear desire for attention is far more honest than Carlos's bhakti popycock that you seem to be falling for. Do you really think he could have a real romance with that duality in his head? I hope the person on the other end of that romance has there wits about them. Bhaktis always 'love everyone', there are just sooooo watery aand just want to relate to 'the God inside everyone'. Don't ya just know it. Love & peace bro Jethro

Subject: ATTN: JETHRO AND HAMZEN (ot) From: Moley To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:15:20 (PDT) Email Address: moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk Message: Hi Guys - Me and Nige are coming to London tomorrow (Mon) til Thurs. Just remembered Jethro that we yakked about meeting up (RU still there???). Hamzen - RU around ??? Nige's mobile (mine is having a menopausal switching-off-thing going on) is 07949 543506.... xxx Moley

Subject: Re: Nothin wrong with gerry matey! From: Carlos _ To Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If I'm a fair example of bhaktis as a group you miss the mark about us by a mile. I dislike about a quarter of the people I know, and trust (more than provisionally, fewer than that. Yes, I do believe God is within all of us. Yes, I (but I'm not at all sure this is common of all bhaktis) belive we are all Aspects of God. But most of us Aspects are amnesiacs, and don't behave in a way that supports my loving them. So what I ty and do is realize God in them without seeking to love the Aspect.

Subject: Ok I lied about the libertarian part... From: gerry To: hamzen Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:59:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but Ham, did you have to tell the the other stuff? That was confidential, mate. See if I give you any more dirt on the side, dude. :) Do you realize that next month is the one year anniversary of F7 and the CAC attack. I thought I do something in honor of that blessed event, seeing as Davey Roupell is the prime suspect for authorship.

Subject: Oh don't be shy, CArlos From: gerry To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 09:10:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Come on, how was it? You're among friends here...

Subject: Re: Hilarious thread, everybody read From: Robyn To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:44:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Carlos, Gerry is spinning out of control from what little I've read this morning. Weird. Sorry you are a target. Seems like this type of behavior by the FA could make this forum a negative contact for EPO in general. Love, Robyn

Subject: Re: Hilarious thread, everybody read From: Carlos - To Robyn To: Robyn Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I doubt if gerry's behaviour will negatively impact EPO. There is enough clarity about the lack of ties between it and this BB, and I feel gerry is clearly and correctly owning that it is just his own whims, and not anybodies policy, that I'm sure of it. The only place it might impact EPO's 'mission' would be if it caused any 'fence sitters' to reverse ourse or to stop looking at the exes presentation of your opinions. Having been a fence sitter for only about 2 weeks before I got K, I have no real feel for how they will react.

Subject: good to see you here again From: hamzen To: Robyn Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:58:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: oh gorgeous one, gerry's just going through one of his periodic flip-outs, thankfully they don't last for long just rAise your eyebrows and feel sorry for him, and you'll see that he's even quite amusing if you don't take him seriously, and how could anyone when he's on his three monthly, a menopausal man thing, you wouldn't understand :) The best thing, as with paypal rawat is just to take the piss back.

Subject: Hey Robyn ... From: gerry To: Robyn Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 09:08:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: did you find a twelve year old to fix your computer yet? (snicker)

Subject: Don't worry Rob From: It IS hilarious To: Robyn Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:02:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You'er dead right Robyn, the gerrymander is imploding embarrassingly on several forums at once. Apart from being extremely crude and crass towards Carlos, Mr Gerry Lying has also committed a highly illegal act on Symposium - and will pay the price. They should begin selecting a new FA for this place in ernest now.

Subject: Memorandum From: Scorpion-II To: It IS hilarious Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TO: Trolls and Stalkers (that's you 'It is hilarious') FR: Scorpion-II, Chief of Security, Forum 7 RE: Report on Gerry, FA, Forum 7 This is to inform everyone who comes here interrupting threads, being disruptive, disrespectful, and/or spreading rumours: Gerry is doing fine today after a heavy workout replacing some of the 50 year old shingles on his trailer during the night. Despite the lack of flood lights (being a trailer guy and all) the moon was still full enough that he was able to work without them! The roof is still leaking but the trailer is in fine standing order. Coffee and #10 lima bean cans are catching any water that may drip onto the orange shag carpet. The beanbag chairs in the living area are waterproof. Gerry's very proud of his trailer and I can attest that it's a vintage 1966 model and shouldn't be made fun of. And with all the critters padding the walls Gerry is always warm. So here's a warning to you poor white trashers who don't have anything better to do than taunt Gerry: Life is Great. Get it? Get out now! You know who you are. Gerry is not imploding and this is not over! Fight! Fight! Fight! Sincerely, Scorpion-II, Chief of Security, Forum 7 P.S. I'm watching you Quiet!

Subject: And Im watching you to Cynthia From: Quiet Amused! To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 09:25:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and so is my IT provider> *nice to hear from you darl........drop over to LG for a chat* you know im deleated here* OH my dear bye the way how can gerry be replacing 50 year old shingles when this van in a1966 model? Learn to coun my dear, it helps when you tell Woppers* Nice to chat to you as usual *take care**Q*

Subject: Why, that's part of my charm... From: Cynthia To: Quiet Amused! Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:47:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, I'll learn to coun when you learn to spel. I'll have you know those shingles came from a barn 50 years ago, set in the garage at the farm until one day around 1975ish, someone found them and they were put on the trailer Gerry lives in today! Mathematics retardation is my charming flaw....

Subject: And you are charming Cynthia...... From: Quiet! To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 15:26:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you have won me. *Q*

Subject: return it for cash. From: some prize. see if you can To: Quiet! Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 02:17:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can at least DO something with cash. janet

Subject: Return it for cash.... From: Cynthia To: some prize. see if you can Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 09:39:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But it's worthless, Janet! And it can't spell, doesn't even try!

Subject: Re: return it for cash. From: Quiet! To: some prize. see if you can Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 04:52:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: true *Q*

Subject: Hey, Scorpion!! From: JohnT To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:57:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You *will* leave some of them varmits for me, wontcha? Nah, on second thoughts, lets just clear up the joint. Let's get shot of the abusive cyber-stalkers like David Roupell (anyways, he needs time out for his feelings to play catch up with all the feedback he's gotten). And -- is it not time to serve Notice on Quiet as well?

Subject: Re: Hey, Scorpion!! From: Scorpion-II To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:45:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: MEMORANDUM TO: JohnT FR: Scorpion-II, Chief of Security, Forum 7 RE: Those Trolls Yup, it's time to clean house. The rats like Roupell/Doc and Quiet! et cetera have eaten all the snacks, drunk all the wine and beer, and have defecated all over the place. It's stinky in here. A couple of skunks have waddled through recently, too. I notice Mr. Quiet! is trying to intimidate me, code name, Cynthia, into going in for some roller coaster rides over on LG. I don't eat rodent bait--it's poisonous. Roupell/Doc thinks he scares me. I wonder if he's the one who signed me up for incest porn last week. I have my investagative team on it, the FBI. And John, there's plenty of road kill all over the world, you can find your own. Good in tomato sauce over spaghetti...ummmmmm. Sincerely, Scorpio-II, Chief of Security, Forum 7

Subject: Re: Hey, Cynthia Graceless From: I think I scare you? To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 22:28:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: well well, that's news to me. The last time I spoke with you I was polite and cordial and you shyly acknowledged it - before wandering off because you cannot be civil for more than two posts at a time before needing to stab someone, usually always in the back. Now, here you are talking behind my back yet again, and telling outright lies to another person who eats, sleeps and dreams hateful thoughts. Well surprise surprise, like minds. Where's Tonnette? Cynthia Gracie, you have proven yourself beneath contempt. So how's the FBI going? Please tell them to give me a call - I would love to talk to them about you and the other sick personalities you hide behind.

Subject: Re: Hey, Scorpion!! From: Carlos - To Scorpian To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:32:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm not sure if your reference to 'code name Cynthia' means you are her or not, but as I am a respecter of anonymity and as if you are NOT her you are not behaving in any way that would hurt her reputation, I don't care> But I do thank you for the touch of humor you've addd to this thread.

Subject: Re: Hey, Scorpion!! From: Cynthia To: Carlos - To Scorpian Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:38:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, It's never been a secret that I'm Scorpion-II, Chief of Security, F__? That's why I laugh. Lighten up pal, it sounds like you've had a difficult week. Take a break from the forums for a day or something. I did it last week and it did wonders.... Cynthia, a/k/a Scopion-II (btw, I used to be Scorpion-I, but that forum closed);)

Subject: Re: Hey, Scorpion!! From: Carlos - To Cynthia, AKA Scorpion 2 To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 19:47:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had no idea you were S. I enjoyed the S. posts I've seen. Best wishes.

Subject: Hey, Scorpion!! From: Quiet Amused! To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:26:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: hey we are Aussies dont forget! We do know how to party! Youre lucky we aint Kiwis.......hehehehe *Q*

Subject: ^^^^^^^Not Worthy of Response^^^^^^^ From: Scorpion-II To: Quiet Amused! Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:27:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Oh Please Respond .........(NT) From: Quiet! To: Scorpion-II Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 15:28:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: ^^^ the cowardly Roupell ^^^ [nt] From: JohnT To: It IS hilarious Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:07:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the man with all those names and IDs again. Yawn.

Subject: To Gerry re blocking Carlos From: Livia To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:38:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gerry, my view for what it's worth, on blocking Carlos is this: I don't really see why he needs to be blocked. Of the premies who post here he seems to be one of the most reasonable, genuine and good to talk with. He doesn't flame people and he doesn't litter the board with inflammatory idiocies or anything of the kind. I think he should be allowed to stay, otherwise we run the danger of all of us agreeing with each other all the time, which can only become ultimately boring for all of us and also for the hundreds who lurk. Livia

Subject: Re: To Gerry re blocking Carlos From: Carlos - To Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you for your kind words and your support. Your description of me pretty well describes the standard of behaviour I aim for. Some of my responses, when I look back at them after I've posted them, seem over the top to me. Including some in this mess. But if you don't consider that flaming, I thank you for that, too.

Subject: Want Roupell's address and telephone? From: gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 13:54:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In case anyone misses the "doc" you can always drop him a line or ring him up. His numbers are available on www.whitepages.com.au Search for D. Roupell in New South Wales under "places other than the capitol. There you will find Cerise and all the other characters...

Subject: You should have done this first Lying From: Rat trapperDoc To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:57:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You could even have gotten away with it. Maybe. But you got dragged behind your desperate ego - which has already posted my family's personal details in writing on a 'potentially hostile' (cops words - not mine) internet bulletin board. I'm betting you wish you had a time machine right now, you could get rid of that illegal act. But sorry, my partner is not like me and this is directly impacting on her life now. I'm moving on it. The print-outs of your brash but fatal mistake (on Symposium) are already in the hands of Aus and US authorities. Indulge the power while you can Mr Lyng, it will not last much longer.

Subject: Hey Dave, I LIKE older women From: gerry To: Rat trapperDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 11:20:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of my best gal pals is sixty and I think she's sexy and cute. Of course she keeps herself fit, eats right, and she looks GOOD, Dave, even naked... :)

Subject: Yea, but they don't like you one bit From: Your bravado is wearing thin Ling To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 22:09:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And the real world net is slowly closing in on you. There is one older woman I know that you have royally pissed off by exposing my house and phone number to the public. She is going to nail your sorry arse. If you would like confirmation, ring the Australian Federal Police on 61 02 516773 and say you are the Gerry Ling who was discussed at length on Sunday afternoon re cyberstalking on a Hotboards Forum. Hey, you can even look up the number in the White Pages! BYW: You should be hearing from Hotboards shortly also. This is almost more fun than being funny - nailing a dangerously vicious, unstable internet gremlin cyberstalker. There are now almost a dozen people working on this case Ling, and you've seen posts from half of them. The big question is, how long will your increasingly thin veneer of bravado and crude flaming sessions on the Lifes Great and other forums go on? I'd say about two weeks more - max.

Subject: So how old is she, Dave? From: gerry To: Your bravado is wearing thin Ling Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 09:55:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We're not talking 70s here, are we Dave? Dave? Omigod dave, she must be loaded. This is almost more fun than being funny - nailing a dangerously vicious, unstable internet gremlin cyberstalker. There are now almost a dozen people working on this case Ling, and you've seen posts from half of them. Let me guess, the crack team of RatTrapperDoc, Garble, the feralfeline, quiet, Wiggy and Cerise. I'm ashakin' in my boots...

Subject: Re: Yea, but they don't like you one bit From: Marianne To: Your bravado is wearing thin Ling Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 09:40:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Australian Federal Police on 61 02 516773 Thanks for the number, Dave I will most certainly be giving them a call.

Subject: ...his mother was an older woman. [nt] From: Neville B. It's Freudian... To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:39:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Incidently David From: JohnT To: Rat trapperDoc Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:13:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You are mistaken if you think that a look up on the Australian White Pages is any kind of offence. How could it be? It's a public service supplied so that offensive cyber-stalkers like yourself *can* be traced. That's all. What *is* an offence under Australian law is to maintain an unregistered database, and process that by data subject. So, for example, it *is* an offense to collect a database of browser types and then use that information by data-subject to identify (or mis-identify) new posters. I think you know what I'm telling you here, eh, David?

Subject: Re: Incidently David From: Aussie wig To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:49:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: your talking thru your arse JOhn

Subject: C'mon wiggy From: JohnT To: Aussie wig Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:45:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: JohnT: You are mistaken if you think that a look up on the Australian White Pages is any kind of offence. How could it be? It's a public service supplied so that offensive cyber-stalkers like yourself *can* be traced. That's all. --- An anonymous premie troll: your talking thru your arse JOhn --- The thing is, anonymous premie troll, you have had a reasoned statement placed in front of you. And you have been unable to make a reasoned reply. Kind of makes you look small minded, you know.

Subject: Re: C'mon wiggy From: Wiggy To: JohnT Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:33:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not realy John. And im not a premie and your statements were not remotely resonable. Sheer speculation on your part, based on what you wish was the law, Not what is written, Nor any interpretation given by any court in OZ. So I repeat.....Your talking thru ya Arse.

Subject: Frankly, no... [nt] From: Neville To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 15:46:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: didn't think so From: gerry To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 20:59:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I might ring him though, if I ever get insomnia !!!

Subject: I'm 'de-Docing' the joint From: Gerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 10:14:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry if it offends anyone but David Roupell's drivel is stinking up the board and since I'm the forum janitor here, I gotta take out the garbage. I know he will continue to post and if you respond (which just encourages him) well, know your reply will be 'dangling in space' as his posts are all being deleted. PS SAME WITH CARLOS

Subject: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:53:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This question was partially inspired by Mike Finch's reply down below, about being 100% sure about leaving m, and then leaving.... Many times the premie response to people who have left the lotus feet is that 'they weren't practicing anymore'.... This used to be 'they got in their mind' or something similar. In all cases, the reasoning is similar: 1)The student MUST keep practicing, and be in love wih m, or they will 'fall of the boat', have a 'mind full of rotting vegetables', 'get eaten by sharks' etc. etc. 2)Everything is always OK (in other words, there is never a need to question the words or deeds of the master), as long as you are practicing. 3)If someone does leave, it's never because of m or k, it's alway because they didn't have that right understanding, or they fell away, couldn't see the masters wisdom etc.... My questions are these: 1)What caused you to finally leave? What was the final drip? 2)What were some of the final thoughts you had, just before leaving? (Ex: What if he IS the lord, after all?....Would I go to hell if I left?....Would my mind eat me alive, if I stopped practicing?...) 3)What was it like when you left, and stopped practicing? How did your life change when you rejected m? For me, 1)my exit was due to epo, and seeing premies reactions to telling them about epo. Also, reading m's pathetic lies on his website, in response to epo's allegations. 2)Final thoughts about leaving were all of the standard fear based ideas that had been planted in me by m for almost 30 years.... However, a new thought also emerged at the same time: Basically, that I was old enough and smart enough to make my own decisions about m and k, and that m was indeed hiding things, lying about things and manipulating people, all for his own gain. I also came to doubt that he had any real interest in helping people at all, but simply liked being worshipped and playing with toys in a decadent lifestyle... 3)When I stopped practicing, it was like a huge weight was taken off of my shoulders. The burden of trying to 'realize knowledge', a mythic, impossible task, was removed. I felt as if I had walked out of a wierd, gray, psychic/spiritual/emotional prison, and my life seemed to go from 'black and white' to 'color'. All aspects of my life blossomed suddenly and have continued to improve.(work, relationships, family, health, outlook, sense of community, etc.) Actually, many of the good things that m talks about, like 'being in the moment','experiencing the magic' 'gratitude' etc., all came into my life more when I STOPPED listening to him, and stoped practicing. I actually was better off without him, and realized what a drain he was on my life....however, he had me believing that I needed him, and life woud be miserable without him.... What a relief to leave!

Subject: Re: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: Neville B To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 16:58:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Final drip: M marrying Marolyn and the 'holy' family coming apart at the seams: divine people just don't act like that. Last thought: dunno, it was spread across about a year of inner wrestling and apocalyptic dreams. What was it like when I left: Glorious. Freedom. FREEEE-DOM. That was 25 years ago, but I still wake up mornings glad to be out of all that twisted crap. Neville Barnes

Subject: Re: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: hamzen To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:34:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Left in the end because it was so glaringly obvious and had been for a while that he couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, and the lila excuses I'd been making for him for ages were just getting boring. I'd always had a wicked time with the meditation, and I noticed no change in my wonderful experiences after having critical thoughts about him. I noticed also that most of the premies I knew seemed to have a lot of spiritual baggage, and that baggage so obviously came from concepts that he kept promulagating. Most of the premies I knew were also pretty boring, didn't have much passion for life outside m, the org, and practising k by the book, but most importantly their years of practice seemed to have dried up any creaytivirty that was there. Add in his appalling dAncing, music taste and increasingly new age hard sell, and the fact that he screeched so much of the time, well there wasn't much option left but to walk. But mostly I no longer believed he was interested in spreading the k to as many people as possible, and seemed quite happy to keep it tiny. This seemed an insult to all those people missing out on the opportunity. Not surprisingly went through some despair at the waste, stopped myself from meditating forcefully for a while, had to invent an anti-nectar technique to stop myself doing it so much of the day, and to a lesser extent an anti holy name technique. Decided I needed to check out my shadow side, and rejoin the human race. Started meeting loads of new people not part of any spiritual scene who I was getting more 'satsang' from (truth) than I had done for years. Starting doing stuff that had some value for others for once rather than just myself and close mates. Now ten years later, and after occasionally meditating and still having a wonderful time, I've found I can meditate without ever thinking about him and it's better than ever, and find life is an incredible adventure without any spiritual concepts and spiritual security. No longer that angry about it all, in fact find it quite amusing how naive we were. Finding f7 and verbalsing what I'd been thinking for years was a wonderful release. But best of all is the feeling of no longer being special, just another human being, very liberating.

Subject: To Hamzen From: The Falcon To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 01:51:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The above post held a powerful resonance for me, thank you. The other massive concept and insidious hook that I have never seen discussed here, is the idea of 'shelter'. Being in the shelter of Guru Maharaj Ji is/was one of the main themes of satsang and the idea of not being in the shelter was to open the gates of hell! Dark and manipulative, and certainly inherited from his dad. I was surprised to find that one still lurking in my sub-conscious quite recently but pulled it out like the weed it was. If K & M was a plant it would be horseradish.

Subject: Remember Falcon From: Jethro To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 03:16:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that sharks are ready to eat yuo up if you left the shelter of Satsang Service Meditation & (don't forget) Darshan.

Subject: Re: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:16:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thoughts on leaving.... Actually I suppose the first drip for me was back in about 1985 or so. Maharaji was doing a programme in Brighton and I was supposed to be working on that day, at something I particularly enjoyed. After much agonising, I made the decision to work. I remember feeling odd at first on that day, knowing all the premies had gone rushing off to see him and I hadn't, something I would never have contemplated doing before, certainly not when it was a programme I could have got to easily. The day wore on - and I found myself enjoying it immensely. The next day - no regret, guilt or odd feelings of any kind. Maharaji had been in England and I had missed him! All the premies came back, said how wonderful it had been, etc etc, and I still had no regret. A couple of weeks later the high wore off for them and they all went back to normal and I began to feel positively glad I'd missed it. I suppose it was at around that point that I was beginning to realise I was enjoying the company of 'non-premies' considerably more fun, stimulating etc. So, for me, cracks were beginning to appear... But another thing was this: for a while I had been beginning to realise that Maharaji never seemed to attribute anything outside of the practise of K with any intrinsic value. Art, music, culture of any description, altruism, community values - all of it seemed to be somehow downgraded in M's world, and I was beginning to find this odd and grating. I mentioned my feelings to a couple of close premie friends and was greeted by a chorus of denial, as if my observation had no value at all and was tantamount to the crime of 'doubt'. The dreadful ogre of doubt! I just couldn't find anyone at all to discuss this with and found it very frustrating. I didn't want to discuss it with non-premies because that would have been a betrayal, and former premies would obviously be down on the whole thing so I didn't want to discuss it with them either. I just wanted an honest discussion with a fellow practising premie, but frankly it didn't seem possible. So I carried on and put the whole thing on the back burner labelled 'deal with later'. Throught the 90's I still meditated but went to far fewer programmes due to family responsibilities which I used as a rationale and excuse for not going. But I still hadn't faced the issues. It was when reading EPO for the second time about 6 months ago that it all finally hit home, and actually what did it for me was M's obvious cowardice with the Jagdeo issue. The lack of appropriate action hit me like a ton of bricks and I just thought 'oh no'. It was as if the scaled finally fell from my eyes and it became glaringly obvious that M wasn't worthy of anyone's worship, and by implication never had been. What a person does is what a person is. There's just no getting away from it. A teacher of anything as supposedly profound as 'self-knowledge' must embody what they teach, or they just cannot teach it. It's just not possible. So for me it all just fell into place. M's weird downgrading of life outside the practising of K and the covering up of the Jagdeo thing all pointed in one direction - that M just is not what we all thought he was. For me it came as a terrible shock and to be honest I'm still dealing with it. I can't even say in all honesty if I'll ever be able to shake off the 30 year conditioning. This upsets me and makes me angry at times but what can you do? Just carry on deconstructing and hope that the layers just keep on peeling off. I feel sad for the premies who are still 'in' and will most likely have to deal with all this themselves, with all the resultant shock and anger. And I have to admit I'm still not ready to tell certain premie friends what I'm feeling, although I have told some and apparently there are rumours going around about me, or so I heard the other day. I just don't feel strong enough to deal with being ostracised by people who have been so much a part of my life for 3 decades, but maybe I should just do it anyway and face the consequences regardless. Maybe what holds me back is a tiny 'but what if' feeling, which I must admit still dogs me at times. It's certainly not a product of my rational mind which knows for sure that M is no harbinger of truth. It probably comes from an unresolved 'good father' issue which lives in my emotional department and is harder to shake off altogether. While on this subject, does anybody else here have those kinds of residual issues relating to M that they are struggling with? It would be wonderful to discuss them here and find out how other people have dealt with them.....for me it's the last stronghold of 'Maharajiism' in my head and I would dearly love to be rid of it once and for all. Thanks to anyone who has read this far, and love to all of you Livia

Subject: please contact me.... From: the Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 02:20:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: if you wish, via a little rabbit up North. It would be good to talk.

Subject: Re: please contact me post for Livia nt... From: The Falcon To: the Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 06:04:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Residual Issues From: PatD To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:25:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I always disliked the guy,but he's God,so bury it. I don't have the slightest trace of 'what if'left,after reading all about it on EPO,but what I do have is the residue of his con trick on my outlook on life,the universe etc. After satsang was abolished & the ashrams closed,I locked up the box in my head labelled GMJ,threw away the key,& got on with 'living in the world',13 yrs too late to make much of an impression,but that's irrelevant really. Thing is the box contained such things as Death & the Beyond.....merging into the light....all is well....you are saved. Is there or isn't there a God & so on,these are things best decided on whilst young & the conclusions drawn shape the person you grow into,but otherwise aren't important. I'm married to an atheist,she decided that when she was 20,I'm 51 having realised 2yrs ago that the thing I based my life on was a lie. That's my beef with Prem : he's fucked with my head,& whatever happens to him is beside the point,I've now got to start from scratch & rethink everything.....not sure I'm up to the job. HEY PREM,call round anytime you're in the area,I'll give you more than a cup of tea.....MOTHERFUCKER.

Subject: What a person does is what a person is From: Seymour To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:45:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia, - What a person does is what a person is - absolutely! I seem to have come accross so many people who communicate the message that they care/are sincere etc., but when it comes to actually proving it their actions fall short. Enjoyed reading your post - I remember that feeling of not wanting to miss a chance to be with M. I had to deny the value of K first and even after that I had to change my view of him from 'Perfect Master' to 'imperfect not-the-master-of-anything' before I could feel comfortable actually staying away from an event that I could have gone to. I also agree with your observation...Maharaji never seemed to attribute anything outside of the practise of K with any intrinsic value. Art, music, culture of any description, altruism, community values - all of it seemed to be somehow downgraded in M's world, and I was beginning to find this odd and grating. I think my conditioning lasted a few years less than your 30 although I left a decade ago. As for your 'residual issues' question - I am amazed that I still come back here and that I think about it all so often. It's probably due to having friends who are still into it all but I think it is also to do with still looking for some sort of answer to the question 'what is the best thing I can do with this life?'. Spending the majority of your time in a rotten job in the struggle to pay the bills so that you can continue life as a wage slave is not what I had in mind when I was a freedom loving hippy type on the spiritual path. I still have hopes that there is a path - at least to a better life style. I won't be trusting any gurus again though - in fact after being let down too many times, I find it hard to believe in the goodness of anyone and am still suffering that side effect of betrayal in thinking everyone who claims to be acting in a benevolent way has some hidden agenda. Sad really when I used to be trusting and think the best of everyone until they proved otherwise. Too many people/gurus proved otherwise. Still 'Hope springs eternal in human breast..' or something like that according to Alexander Pope I think? Best Wishes Seymour.

Subject: Residual Issues From: NikW To: Seymour Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:17:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wish I was in a state to give a fuller answer - but if I leave it, the intent to post will just pass by. Wot Hamzen said - the release of not being special. Quite the opposite for me. Being one of 'The Elect' and maintaining it with the 'secret' link of meditation is what ties me into the M/DLM mindset - even after 25 years of being away from the devotee cash machine. And faced with a mundane and painful existence its a hard habit to kick. Nik

Subject: the poetry! the poetry!it was the poetry! From: Bryn To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 05:20:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: fg

Subject: Re: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: Seymour To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 11:15:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi La-ex, Good questions and it gives me a chance to to rehash my old journey... I finally made the decision to drop out at a knowledge review given by Guru Maharaji, at which, after having struggled to raise the entrance fee and leaving my children for a few days, I was subjected to some of the most schmaltzy, slo-mo, sentimental videos accompanied by the most bland music I had ever heard. Guru Maharaji's poetry recitals made me think what a shame it was that he is surrounded by sycophants who are not able to help him with some objective constructive criticism and save him embarrassment . I suppose some would say that it is a matter of taste - and I can only say that it was not to my taste. Did this mean that I was criticising my Creator and the sustainer of my life? The review itself seemed to lay down the law about the exact way in which to practice the meditation. This surprised me as I had previously been to many reviews where slight variations on the physical positioning and so forth had been described, and had been told by initiators that such considerations did not matter so long as there was sincere effort and you were in tune. The present knowledge review seemed so different from the magic of previous years. I felt that what had been part of a mystical revolution had been transformed to something which felt like a hotel business conference . The crunch for me came in the Question and Answer session after lunch. I disagreed with many of the answers that Guru Maharaji gave or thought they were so ambiguous that they made no sense to me. One chap asked how he could reconcile the practice of knowledge with his job, which involved gaining huge profits for a capitalist City company by misleading clients, if not downright lying. Guru Maharaji just said 'don't worry about it - such things go with the territory' - questionable ethics, I thought. This sparked off other questions about practising knowledge in difficult situations/environments. Each one seemed to get Guru Maharaji more irritated as each time he gave the same answer along the lines of 'I have given you the greatest gift and all you do is put obstacles in the way of practising it'. Finally a sweet little old lady got up and started to say something innocuous about her meditation and family life. Before she could finish Guru Maharaji appeared to reach the end of his tether - which probably had more to do with the previous questions than the one she asked - and she became the recipient of a lengthy admonishment on not appreciating the value of knowledge, and how he was doing all he could, and if it was not working correctly there was no one to blame but yourself for not following the instructions. I can't remember exactly what was said. I just remember an attitude that seemed to lack sensitivity and compassion. I know it could be argued that he was acting out of extreme concern for the welfare of his premies and getting frustrated that they were not experiencing the joy that he knew they could. However, the knowledge that he was talking about was given by him, and he was presumably having that experience himself, yet here he was losing his temper. I know that these days some premies say that he is regarded as human with all the failings that implies, and that he is just trying to bring peace to the world through distribution of the knowledge techniques, but during my two decades with Divine Light Mission he was always regarded as the 'boss' who had all the answers, rather than a fellow traveller on life's journey. I remember being totally fed up with wondering who he was, what the knowledge was, and what was the best way to practice it. After trying sincerely for over 20 years, I decided that I may have been one of the many who are called but not one of the few who are chosen and made a conscious decision to drift away. That was over 10 years ago and I can't imagine ever going back, despite the horrible things that life keep throwing at you it's better to find something real than settle for a pipe dream. And yes I too felt a weight off my shoulders, although a little apprehensive that I had made the right decision. There was something else though, although I'm a little embarassed to admit it, I missed having a guru. Probably like missing your wife if you get divorced. I had got so used to having him around, even praying to him when things were tough, that it was weird suddenly feeling that I was a lone seeker again. It was not just the mystical side of him I missed but over the years had grown fond of him as a person, his sense of humor etc. and the picture I had built up of him from all the tales told by initiators/mahatmas in satsang. If only he was an honest, humble dude - I would still like to hang out with him. But alas he seems to be quite a different person from my impressions pre-ex-forum days when we knew nothing but what we heard from the sycophants. One positive aspect of removing M from my affection was that I was able to be more attentive to friends and family who, despite not admitting it even to myself sometimes, often took second place. Cheers Seymour

Subject: Re: Poll: Practicing vs. leaving From: janet To: Seymour Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 16:52:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 1)What caused you to finally leave? What was the final drip? --for me, the drips began during the time I got pregnant with my only child in 1978, and i began to see how shallow the premies were in the face of something as momentous and the forming of another human life. it only got owrse after the baby came. I was subjected to what i thought were incrediblely callous, cruel experiences around my child at the hands of premies, some of which included being locked out of a warm, dry trailer at kissimme and being forced to bathe my infant son in cold water in a freezing tent during a rainstorm, and later being threatened lazily by a security guy at community satsang with his turning me in to child welfare if i left my toddler son to play in the childcare room without me. he who had three children but left his wife to go off on middle aged adultrous trysts with hapless runaways a thousand miles away. the drips increased after i lost my son to my father in a custody surprise upon emerging from a forced psych hospitalization for a year, and discovering that the support and welcome back that i had hung my whole year of torture upon the hopes of finding when i got out, was absent. the community had dried up. i spent ten long years making my own way, hanging on by my teeth, hoping it would come back, but the years went by and it all just grew colder. in the 90's i made anew friend, in his 20's, who wanted knowledge sincerely. he meditated with me. he got light and music and nectar spontaneously. he went to every GMJ program. he had darshan dreams. he asked for knowledge at every event, and was always snobbishly refused. we finally moved to LA together in 93 and i lost touch with the premies completely. If i got word of a program with MJ, I went, but i noticed that when i came back to my neighborhood, my first feeling was 'this is my real life. these are the real people in my life. this is where i live. not with those strange zombies i just spent the weekend with'. but still I kept going to see him. a major drip was the tchotchke tables at long beach. i couldnt beleive the blatant conspicuous consumption all that merchandise was announcing. the conversations i overheard in the merchandise hall utterly alienated me: devotees I spent the early days with, leafletting in new york city when we were all mendicant monks, who were now bragging to me about their million dollar stock portfolios as they were buying expensive watches like candy, as trinkets for friends who couldnt attend. I walked off nearly sick that this was what my lifeong oath had become. but still I hung on. I didn't crack until april 2000, when MJ held an event a walk from my house, to unveil something he described as his 'guinea pig experiment' on us. i couldnt sleep all night. I didnt eat breakfast. I was out of the house at dawn and down to the hall, eager to get in. But the eagerness wasn't reciprocated at all. There was zero place for attendees to sit down anywhere outside the auditorium.And the auditorium was locked until MJ said it could be opened. All the hordes or service people had chairs, but no commoners were permitted to sit on one. The one empty chair i did find in an unstaffed 'press area' , i was forcibly dumped from sitting on, by some frigid, sharp blond in a pantsuit who folded the chair up and closed the area rather than let me sit down--and i am now around 100 lbs overwieght. When I need to sit, i need to sit. my boold suger crashed from no food around noon, and still the doors were locked. the one food cart there was, closed on orders from the event staff. i started to pass out, a bit like a diabetic going into coma. i was viewed as a nuisance rather than aperson in crisis. someone pointed me to the special needs table, and i could barely explain myself. on riffling thru the registrations, they could find no record of my stating in advance that I would require special needs measures, so there was no provision for me. the tabel personnel were wary about letting me sit down in one of their precious folding chairs. someone was finally assigned to me, but basically they did nothing. couldnt get me food, couldnt get me a seat to sit on, no medical training. just a saccharin smile and a bongos escort. when the hall finally opened, i was walked to my preassigned seat, where I gripped my gut and started rocking involuntarily and shivering. Nothing was done. I left my chair to go lie down on the carpeted floor, far over against the side wall. someone came over and firmly told me to go back to my seat. Now my back was seizing up. I could not sit still in the chair. MJ came out and blathered on, full of himself and smug about it. For the first time in my life, I was cursing him out in my mind and snarling at him to shut up and get on with it. He was all about being cute, about having everything to himself. Zero awareness that anything else went on in the world. I was in pain. I was cold unto chattering. I was hungry unto blacking out. I wanted to lie down and be left alone. But I was not allowed. Finally, the supreme slap in the face, that ruptured the ties: the lights went down, a screen came up, and prempal told us we were going to be the test subjects for his new 'autoknowledge dvd' method o giving the 4 techniques. and the picture rolled, and he split the building. I was coldly furious. I saw 27 years of dedication and belief get knifed in the gut. fuck the 'touch of the master'. fuck the 'transmission from an enlightened being'. fuck a lifetime of giving and beleiveing and coming for a precious gift. this was nothing like that.now the very last shred of humanity had been extinguished from it. i had been priced out, snubbed out, systematized out, and nmechanized out. I was finished with it permanently. I got up. my escort got un alarm and followed me up the aisle. I turned back at the doors and told her 'no. you go back inside. this is for you. not me. do not follow where I am going.' and i pushed her back inside the doors to the hall. she was flummoxed, didnt know what to do. I was irrecable about it. I ordered her not to come with me. I waited till she went back inside and the doors shut, and then I scanned the lobby. the doors out were locked and being patrolled by armed guards lest anyone try to invade and obtain the secret knowledge. so I spied a curtained cubicle empty near the tabels, and crawled over behind the drapes, wrapped myself in them, and passed out completely. I didnt come to consciousness again utnil it was over and people were pouring out of the hall. At which point i got up, went to the smart card table, asked for all my application papers back in my own possession [much to their confusion--i had to reiterate my reasons repeatedly. i kept telling one person after another that anything I wrote , and my image, belonged to me and no one else, and that i legally was demanding possession back of what was mine, that i was revoking my permission for EV to possess them in any form. I did finally get all my materials back. and then i strode out the doors in the daylight and walked down to the promenade, where my real friends were, including my ten years rejected aspirant friend, and i informed him that I had cut the ties and wasn't going back. they hailed me, shook my hand, and made some devastatingly funny remarks goring the fatboy in words he would burn to hear. 2)What were some of the final thoughts you had, just before leaving? (Ex: What if he IS the lord, after all?....Would I go to hell if I left?....Would my mind eat me alive, if I stopped practicing?...) I started the last day in excitement, hoping for some blow away premie insight, some darshan based wipeout of all the present crud in y life, truly open to seeing him , like all the best darshans of my 27 years in. the pain and hunger and social insults grew all day, but i hung on. I might despise the staff, but the speaker was still supposed to be my payoff. But when that dvd started and he left, I snapped. my thoughts were vicious, smoldering hatred, the rage of seeing thru the lie and being treated --no--used--and shabbily so. I didnt have any fears. I saw smoking, blazing red. there was confusion in the months afterwards when old habits would pop up, looking for an expression, but i slammed them face on with the reminder of what he did to me that day. the programmed fears started to surface, superstitious fears, and i started to recognize how extensively he had brainwashed us all those year, gettin us to believe things that no rational, educated person could tolerate. when i got phone calls from the two premies i knew, I shocked the shit out of them by cutting each of the assumptions they were operating on, to bits. I was relentless. They were left gaping and backing away, and i signed off endorsing them to call me again soon so I could tell them some more of what i had realized. one still calls, the other doesnt. i still miss the premie habits, but when i think about them and the people who practice them now, I scoff in scorn. i cant beleive they could be so naive, so dense, so immature and undeveloped at their age. and all this was before i found EPO. 3)What was it like when you left, and stopped practicing? How did your life change when you rejected m? --in some ways it didnt change, because i had found it necesary to go on alone, starting many years before. but after deciding the cord was irrevocably cut, suddenly i began to realize how many things about premiedom had served as a dishonest screen for me to hide behind, with people. that screen wasn't around anymore. I had to come out and face people. friends say a certain 'holier than thou' air i used to have, dissipated. they found they werent afraid of me any longe. they dared to voice things they previously wouldnt. i did feel like i lost an overarching purpose to my life. I didnt have some Mission to steer by anymore. the mundane rhythm of everyday life got to be claustrophobic. i got massively depressed and miserable , staring into that. I still haven't solved that one, but the depression is much less now. i am still sifting thru my habits of the last 27 years and deciding which things are worthy to retain, and which just smack of the cult that i never want to do or have around me again. no question--i do miss the old days. but he killed all that was good about it. what it is today, i hate and despise. sometimes i wonder when it went bad, but its a continuum, and i dont think there is a single turning point. i have to conclude that we reached a point of mutual departure: i don't like them and they don't like me anymore. we dont want the same things in life. i dont feel i left him, rather that he left me.

Subject: You should write a book, Janet From: Seymour To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:30:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great story Janet, I remember some other posts of yours about some of the tragic and fantastic experiences your life seems to be filled with. I could never stand the pace, being a pipe and slippers man. Thanks for sharing the tale. Seymour

Subject: The Farting Preacher, Vol 2 From: cq To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:22:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dearly beloved brethren, the link we have above us is strength to the weak, manna to the hungry, succour to the succourless ... and f**king funny to boot. Please folks, put your hands together and welcome 'The Farting Preacher, Volume 2'. (thinks, could someone do this with vids of the maha?) Technical note: Admittedly it's *only* 385Mb (!) big, but if you've got the technology and the bandwidth to download it, it's well worth the effort, IMO. (it's streaming video, so that huge file size may not be as much as a problem as you'd think). The Farting Preacher. Volume II archive.damnit.org:27373/video/Godfarte.mpeg

Subject: Re: The Farting Preacher, Vol 2 From: God To: cq Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 01:26:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Forbidden You don't have permission to access /video/Godfarte.mpeg on this server. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Apache/1.3.19 Server at anonymous.anonymous.com Port 80

Subject: and if that link don't work, try this From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:29:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: and if that link don't work, try this The Farting Preacher II damnit.org/showpic.php?eurl=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.damnit.org%3A27373%2Fvideo%2FGodfarte.mpeg

Subject: well, it's anyone's guess now From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:57:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, last chance: select the file named Godfarte.mpeg after you click here

Subject: This'll work. It will ... it better .. From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:01:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: then select 'Educational' then 'videos'. Then 'Godfarte.mpeg' Jeez, all this for a breath of ... hmmmmm http://www.damnit.org/ after you click here www.damnit.org/

Subject: It DID! It worked!!! (nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:31:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It DID! It worked!!! (ignore 'if at first you don't succeed' post below)

Subject: If you don't at first succeed ... From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:55:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: OK, last chance: select the file named Godfarte.mpeg after you From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:22:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From Amaroo 24 April 2001 Three minute snippet (approx. 750k) on past Master's not being recognised and dying penniless whearas now the Master is recognised and is certainly not penniless! Ho hum - what a bore! Poor Kabir was penniless but Prem is not! www.ex-premie2.org/download/misc/Prem_on_%20Kabir_Amaroo%20Apr_2001.mp3

Subject: Re: Maharaji's thoughts on Kabir From: Thorin To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 14:40:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did I detect some droppings being cleaned up here a short while ago gerry? :) Maharaji, in the above mp3 file, seems to have a sadness about him in that it is only now that people are making 'thousands of dollars' from the writings of Kabir. So to make amends, Maharaji who believes he is some sort of later day Kabir, pens some utter crud for a little known publication called 'Leaders' and then has the gall to charge his followers for copies of his crud. I wonder if anyone ever told him that his writing skills are pretty useless and that he is simply a leader of a cult - no more no less. If he has any doubt that is in a cult he should look no further than here Thanks Maharaji for the detour down that cul-de-sac, most of your followers are now back on the main street, no longer following you. Thorin

Subject: Where are my posts going? From: Jerry To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:51:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I could swear I posted 2 posts this morning. Both of them are gone. Am I blocked? Has the mighty FA turned his fearsome, and impartial gaze of destruction upon me? Am I toast???

Subject: Hoy shit, now they're back! From: Jerry To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:53:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What's going on here? Is it me, or did they disappear and then reappear? And where's my ginkgo biloba?!

Subject: Re: Hoy shit, now they're back! From: Thorin To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 11:37:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like your browser loaded some old pages from its cache and then you refreshed enabling you to 'see' your lost posts.

Subject: Re: Hoy shit, now they're back! From: Jerry To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 18:57:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, I tried all that. I refeshed the page, reloaded it, still nothing. Then it just came back... just like that. Hmm. I give up. I'll never figure out what makes these things (computers) tick, and I troubleshoot them for a living! Believe me, I've seen stranger things. Sometimes it just makes no sense at all. It's almost impossible to localize the problem there's so many things that could be the cause of it. It drives you crazy sometimes.

Subject: f'rinstance From: JohnT To: Jerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 00:42:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: there's so many things that could be the cause of it. Could even have been a problem with your ISP's cache (if they use one). Or maybe your local cache has almost filled your hard disk. I've noticed very erratic behaviours when hard disks get too full.

Subject: And another question... From: Neville To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 15:44:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know of any premies who have claimed to have 'realised' knowledge?

Subject: Re: And another question... From: D Minus Votey To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 16:06:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji did. It's even in his book: 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji.' I have a copy if you would like to see it.

Subject: Re: And another question... From: Neville To: D Minus Votey Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 04:29:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh shit...look is Mr Votey? Is this more irony?--because if so it ought to be signalled better. I quoted this very fact--that M claimed to have realized knowledge--in my posted reply to you below. Didn't you even bother to read it? Neville

Subject: Whoops... From: Neville To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 04:31:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, that post was to Mr Feline Ferawl. But you STILL should have read it. Neville

Subject: No, wait: Votey, it WAS you... [nt] From: Neville B To: Neville Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:43:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: And another question... From: D.Votey To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:15:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Neville, realising Knowledge is not a final goal. The realisation is that we have to keep practising in order to stay tuned to that inner place. You ex students are far to anxious to have some final mark to show results for what you do. Maharaji does not give Knowledge as a contained entity but as an ongoing practise. When your mother gave birth to you she did not cease all involvement in how you proceeded. She kept involved and even after you become adult stayed involved. Have more trust and be happy.

Subject: Is this for real? D. votey? From: Bryn To: D.Votey Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 06:58:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Am I out of touch? Is this an 'in character' post,like Pauline Premie, or Andrea Erikson or something? 'Have more trust and be happy'?, 'When your mother gave birth to you etc..'? Is this someone being ironic behind a flipant name? If so fine..ho ho ho. Silly me. BUT,D.Votey,if your flip name conceals someone speaking in earnest, well...as they say: 'your slip is showing.' Actually that's puting it too mildly, you are displaying a lot lot more than your slip here. Thanks for the guidance great one, and I bet you look in to see what reaction your pronouncements get from the oh so lost e students. So why not reply, and I'll treat you to some of the finer points I think YOU need to hear. I really can't tell if this is for real. Love Bryn

Subject: Tricky business, irony. [nt] From: Neville To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:12:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: 'We're on a road to nowhere...' From: Neville To: D.Votey Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:57:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't buy it, Mr Votey. M claims that when given knowledge (at some young age) he realized it immediately. If you've acknowledged that 'realization' is an infinite journey, then you can't really be aiming for it. So what are you aiming for? What are you really trying to achieve? Neville

Subject: Re: 'We're on a road to nowhere...' From: Mr Feline Ferawl To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:22:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey, that's why you are stuffing around with 70's style protest.hey if you really wish to be effective Dodo head, join our legal challenge to Ruddock and the father of the two boys. Get real Nev, you are too focused on poo and garbage...;)

Subject: Re: 'We're on a road to nowhere...' From: Not (good grief) Neville Ackland To: Mr Feline Ferawl Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:32:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wrong Neville! Gee, can't youse guys get it through your heads? I mean, do you think there's only one person called Neville in the world? Neville Ackland is the guy with placards in Oz. (A hero, IMO.) I'm the UK Neville who comes out with intellectual stuff. GET IT RIGHT. (Poo? You've been watching too many Tarentino movies. Wash your mouth out.) UK Neville

Subject: No but I know an ex who does From: zazenzu To: Neville Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 03:20:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course to 'claim' is more baggage, so no but do I feel that anyone I know realized k, yes, three I can think of, including myself and for all three of us realizing k meant we saw through gm, ironic no?

Subject: Re: No but I know an ex who does From: Jethro To: zazenzu Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:45:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Between receiving knowledge and seeing maharaji for the first time(in the flesh) there was a period of about 6 months. During that time I got hold of as many tapes as possible of m's satsangs and listened with great reverence. In one tape I heard he was talking about traversing the path and the type of illusuions we all have to pass through before realising it. He said that the last big illusion to go through is Himself ie the illusion of the Perfect Master. This was in 1974 that I heard this tape. Now skip forward to late 1996.I was still a staunch believer in Him, but I coldn't stand EV, the way people were treated like crap. I had been writing to Maharaji for over 10 years about how his mission(well ceratainly in the UK) was going down the drain. I sent him detailed 'satsang' letters containing Shri Hans stuff proving there was shit happening here. I was so distrustful of EV that I sent cheques to 'Prem Rowatt'(which the treasurer didn't like). There was also other stuff which I won't go into here. The situation was that we were not allowed to speak about knowledge or maharaji. I wished I was mute. I thought maybe to become like the Muni Baba who loved nectar so much that he asked for Maharaji's(Hans) agya not to ever speak again so that he could be in nectar all the time.......then one day sometime in late 1996 I bought this video of maharaji called 'Listen to you'. It was a recording of a program he had done in Greece. The whole theme of the video was about listening to your own self and having the courage to follow own self. So I took all my faith in whatever it was and actually voiced the words to someone who was pressing me to take them to see maharaji. I said 'Don't go there, I certainly wouldn'go any more...etc etc'. I couldn't believe that I'd said that. I noticed that the sky didn't fall on my head and began to voice other 'hidden thoughts and feelings'. It was most liberating, the beginning of the exorcism of Rowatt from my head/psyche. So there you go. Before realising the Knowledge one must oust the image of the sanskara of 'The Master'. That's why bhaktis's are really fucked when it comes to real communication(satsang?) between a heart and a heart. Your basic premis is a lie and truth won't have that. I just found the tape and watched it again. Recommend it to one and all, especially if you are feeling a bit trapped in the cultishness of prem; it will give you an out.

Subject: occasionally paypal slips in the odd good comment From: zazenzu To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 00:40:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: channelling hamzen I took him at his word right from the beginning, re those quotes he used to make about k being about the experience in the moment, about finding out by eating the fruit rather than believing it, and that was pretty much my take on it 97% of the time, and it never shifted whatever other stuff he said, which was always pretty contradictory. I always reckoned that his speeches were littered with lots of different angles, so that everyone would be covered wherever they were in his/her life and would hear the bit of the satsang in their heart/soul that was directly relevant to them at that time, which they needed to hear. By the time the heavy devotional stuff really kicked in in 77/78 I was already so in meditation nigh on most of the day, or very close to it even when in my mind, and k was my committment not m since k was with me at all times and mj had still not manifested for me internally, that the only doubts I had about my take on it all were those moments when stuff seemed to be going pear shaped. They lasted very little time, since I was having a wonderful experience so much of the time, everything made total sense from that position, and the 'grace' was manifesting in mindblowing ways almost every day. And those stretchier periods always led to deeper understanding, very quickly and just re-affirmed my committment to the path I was on, treating k practice as a zen/taoist total moment tingy. If I was doing it wrong why wasn't my life and my head falling apart and it so very obviously wasn't. For me giving up attacvhments to anything apart from the heart, and even there I was constantly learning to let go through and past barriers, was the key to it all, that I had total faith in k, and everything else was seen as total delusion and illusion. Re the money materialism thing, the eye of the camel quote in the bible summed it up for me. Re realizing k, of course I saw it as a constant refreshing in the moment, not as some realization so that you could then retire, since the moment was all that ever existed, and the quality of that moment was all that mattered. Practising k from that angle was always very simple, and the experiences I had in meditation were nothing short of sublime on a regular daily basis. Basically also any zen saying desribed the way it developed for me, in fact I was very unaware of zen til I'd been down the k route for three or four years, and it was a revelation coming across the key texts, that mixed in with some kabir love stuff, though not to god but to love in its isness as the core of it all. And the further my experience and undersatandings went, in fact the more bliss I experienced, the more lila excuses I was making for him, to the point where after 13 years I was starting to see how useless he was, and not just blaming the wasted potential all on ev. After 16 years I walked completely, and realized he was a completel irrelevance, if not a total fake. So I can really relate to your comment re letting go of the guru as the last baggage to let go of, also a key zen concept.

Subject: Who would have the nerve.... From: PatD To: Neville Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 16:43:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...to make a claim like that.In premland everyone knows it's all about fuehrerkontakt & meeting up with old friends for a few hours,nothing to do with realising anything. The thoroughly modern student knows,by that mysterious process of unspoken communication which baffles observers of,e.g. ant colonies,that anyone claiming to have achieved the state of consciousness once touted as the main reason for kissing the Bollixswar's feet,must be a BONGO. That's the long answer,the short one is 'no'.

Subject: calling Mike Finch From: Livia To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:40:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike On the subject of the possibility of 'realising Knowledge' I was wondering if you'd like to come here and give us your pennysworth. I know you've said here before that you gave it a very fair 'crack of the whip' for well over 30 years, and decided eventually that there was nothing much doing. Love, Livia

Subject: Re: calling Mike Finch From: Mike Finch To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 06:34:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the subject of the possibility of 'realising Knowledge' I was wondering if you'd like to come here and give us your pennysworth. I know you've said here before that you gave it a very fair 'crack of the whip' for well over 30 years, and decided eventually that there was nothing much doing. First, I am not sure there is any such thing as 'total enlightenment' or whatever - meaning a state of mind where you are always in perfect peace, love, whatever. Maybe there is, but I don't think so. Anyway, although I am not so sure about that, I am 100% sure that if there were such a state to be got to, Maharaji's Knowledge does not lead to it. In other words, 'realising Knowledge' is both an inherent impossibility - such a thing just doesn't exist - and is a practical impossibility, meaning that even if it were a possibility you could not get to it. This carrot of 'realising K' is one of the main hooks that kept us (or at least kept me) chained to his abusive behavior, and living what in my heart of heart I knew to be a lie. n a recent post Peg describes her take on the recent Brighton event, and she says something like a part of me thought: What if it were true after all?. And that little thought is certainly what kept me going for years. 'Realising K' is such a golden carrot, the state of all states, the ultimate goal of human life - nay, thousands of human lives - that although your current life in the ashram, or in the premie scene, is miserable, it has to be endured for this ultimate goal. Even if there is only one chance in a hundred that Maharaji is true, it is worth gambling on that chance since if he were true, the rewards would be everything. That is why you have to lengthen the odds so that you are 100% sure it is all a con before you can truly leave the cult, since if you allow any % chance that it is true after all, the logical thing would then be to stay in and surrender to M, since the reward of realising K is everything. I certainly did give it a 'fair crack of the whip'. I took the meditation seriously, and practised Knowledge sincerely for 30 years. I meditated practically every day, and many days I did considerably more than one hour. Of course I had many beautiful experiences, even to thinking occasionally: This is it, I have realised the K !! Once I was telling Maharaji about my latest experience, and he just said 'go further'. For a few seconds I was disappointed, then I was amazed by his profound wisdom and his understanding of the profound depths of the K. Now of course I see that that is all he could ever say, 'go further', since the basis of the whole cult is that the holy grail is almost within your reach, but not quite - one more effort, one more event, one more surrender. I feel such a fool not seeing this years before, but at least I did see it at last. I am not sure whether to take it as a compliment or not, that you thought of me in connection with the phrase 'realising Knowledge' !! The real realisation is to realise that the phrase 'realising Knowledge' is about the most dangerous phrase in the English language. -- Mike

Subject: in response to Mike Finch From: Livia To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:27:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Mike, thanks for your response and well said. BTW, I thought of you because you always struck me as a very sincere person and because in your posts here you've mentioned that you really did give K your all for all those years and not just in a devotional sense but with your efforts in meditation. I think what you just said is really true - that the 'what if' thing kept so many of us hanging on in there year after year. Shame none of us the benefit of 30 years hindsight when we first got involved! I doubt M even uses the term 'realising Knowledge' any more, so you can't help wondering what would keep newer premies hooked in these days. Actually I doubt many of the premies on the scene today are of the more recent variety - from what I've seen at the last few programmes I went to, most of the crowd were very much of the older variety, presumably still hooked in by the residual hope of 'realising K', nostalgic feelings towards M and all the rest of it. One premie I spoke to the other day said he was 'melted' by M at the Brighton programme. I went to a Brighton programme some years back and also felt 'melted' but see now how much of that was nostalgia for those magical early days. A few years later I saw him at Wembley and was struck by just how empty the whole thing really is. No discerning premie can surely still believe they are on a path to realising anything except, hopefully, one day, that they've been well and truly duped! All the best to you, Livia

Subject: Cult programming... From: Cynthia To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:05:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mike, In a recent post Peg describes her take on the recent Brighton event, and she says something like a part of me thought: What if it were true after all?. And that little thought is certainly what kept me going for years. 'Realising K' is such a golden carrot, the state of all states, the ultimate goal of human life - nay, thousands of human lives - that although your current life in the ashram, or in the premie scene, is miserable, it has to be endured for this ultimate goal. Even if there is only one chance in a hundred that Maharaji is true, it is worth gambling on that chance since if he were true, the rewards would be everything. Even when I was what used to be called 'spaced out,' not practicing knowledge during the 80s and 90s, it was that cult-programmed hook: he is the lord, he is the lord, I can't chance breaking the tie with Maharaji. It wasn't even the 'realized soul' thingy that kept me believing. Maharaji's business is pure cult brainwashing bullshit. Maharaji's work is to keep as many people giving him adoration and money. Once I realized, as you said, Mike, that I was 100% sure 'it' wasn't him, and 'knowledge' wasn't 'it,' I no longer thought that I may miss something if I reject him outright. Maharaji's proclamations were/are absolute falsehoods. Now I am able to move on with my life. It takes time to work the cult thought programs out of one's mind. Doubt helps a lot:) Talking with others, like here also helps. Implanted cult thinking--that's all those thoughst are--what I call the 'tape loop of the ex-Lord.' Filled with indoctrinating crap that is quite lasting when one looks back at the years and years of satsang, service, meditation, and listening to the fraud sell his glass of water to quench my thirst. I have plenty of water right where I am without Guru or his mindf**king self-knowledge or Knowledge of all Knowledges. Can't keep track of him anymore...he changes like a chameleon.;) Cynthia

Subject: IMHO: *** A Best of Forum*** Thanks (NT) From: Nottm Bunny To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:47:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: NT

Subject: Re: calling Mike Finch From: Seymour To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:36:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Mike, I enjoyed reading your post. It's been a while since I have been on the forum but as I have some free time this weekend( for a change ) I have been reading the recent posts and am glad to see that there is still so much valuable communication between exes. I know what you mean when you say 'realising Knowledge' is both an inherent impossibility - such a thing just doesn't exist - and is a practical impossibility, meaning that even if it were a possibility you could not get to it. it was the carrot of eventually being released from the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' that kept me going for over 20 years. These days, however, when I talk to premies they say I was foolish to believe that K was the solution to such a quest. 'It's just a way of relieving stress and being happy' they say and put forward the notion that M has relinquished the religious trappings that he admits were part of his family and cultural upbringing. I'm not convinced. However, I still live in hope that there may be techniques to become wise and live a balanced life. And more importantly improve ourselves as members of society. I have no idea what these techniques are but communicating in an honest and unbiased way has got to feature in there somewhere and that's just what this forum often contains. I think there is something in psychology called 'authentication' ( from distant memories of being a student) that suggests this as an important part of our interaction with fellow human beings. What I do find worrying about the shift in M's organisation is the promotion of a 'self-help', almost psychology based, method of achieving sanity/peace of mind when it's really just the same old same old i.e. a mixture of superstition and wish-fulfillment. One thing I have learnt is not to base the foundation for my views or actions on such ephemeral things. Best Wishes Seymour

Subject: That's a post I'm keeping. [nt] From: Neville To: Mike Finch Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:11:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: I got a question... From: Neville Barnes To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 12:26:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Leonard Bernstein had this technique for composing music where he went into a semi-doze, then woke up and wrote down the tunes he heard. Here's the question: does anyone know of any premie musicians who have used the music mediation technique for generating musical compositions? Neville

Subject: Oh, for a muse of fire! From: Anthony To: Neville Barnes Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:01:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would seriously doubt that any premie musicians ever got inspiration from performing the music technique, largely because the sounds heard thereby don't resemble music as we know it in any way shape or form (although once, about 27 years ago, I heard the riff of a flute - only about 4 notes - which completely stilled my worried mind, and utterly blissed me out. The experience has never repeated, alas). There is a strong link between meditation and the creative energies, however. A lot of years ago, and specifically around the late 70s and early 80's, I did a lot of writing. I used to find that when I had an exceptional experience at a Festival, e.g. Kissimmee 1979, I experienced an accompanying profound artistic opening too. I had a book ongoingly writing itself in my head. To produce it, I proceeded as follows: When I wrote, I would meditate for a few minutes first, then sketch down phrases and half/whole sentences as they came to mind. They had a freshness all of their own. When I had accumulated a page and a half or so, I would stop. I'd then take a bit of stock, meditate for a couple of minutes or so, then write the whole section of story (maybe 4 - 5 pages) spontaneously in one sitting. I'd leave each section for a couple of hours, then go back, read it quietly and a bit more critically, and maybe change the odd word, for the purposes of flow. I'd keep a rough flowchart of how the plot had to go - again furnished after stilling the mind. Whenever I hit a major snag, and got into thinking too heavily, I just got more enmeshed. Then I had to let go in a major way, and the inspiration would take off again. It seems to me that the inspiration was coming from the intuitive/unconscious, while tapping sufficiently into the rational side enough to furnish sequence, continuity, and so on. I myself reckon this is the normal process of creativity - the Greeks called it the muse. The other explanation is that creativity comes from the Self or Soul, which is experienced when the mind is stilled enough. Call me an old-fashioned romantic, but I prefer the latter explanation. It raises the age-old paradox, however, of whether these things are produced merely materially, i.e. through the brain functions, or spiritually. I would prefer to think they are spiritual experiences, and are accompanied or translated by corresponding brain processes. Anthony

Subject: that would ascent etc From: Neville B To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:04:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You were using what is known technically as the 'deferred judgement' method (See S. J. Parnes 'Education and Creativity', Teachers College Record, vol 64, 1963.) I use similar techniques--except for the meditation, which I doubt is in any way necessary. Neville Barnes

Subject: Re: that would ascent etc From: Anthony To: Neville B Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 11:09:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: So what sort of stuff do you write?

Subject: Once more into the breach... From: Neville B To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 14:15:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'So what sort of stuff do you write?' For money, technical manuals pertaining to the ISO 9000 qualtiy standard. For futile stabs at self-expression, SF&F. I've only got three or four rejection letters from the major magazines, so it's early days yet. How about you? Neville Barnes

Subject: And monarchs to behold the swelling scene From: Anthony To: Neville B Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 04:17:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Three books. The first, a science fantasy allegory based on Maharaji and DLM. Then two volumes of my spiritual journey told as semi-autobiographical novel. All quite some time back. I've been musing on what might have happened if 'S. J. Parnes 'Education and Creativity', Teachers College Record, vol 64, 1963.)' had been available to Beethoven, Mozart or Pasternak. The thought is awesome.:) Best wishes, Anthony

Subject: Self-love, my liege, is not so vile a sin... From: Neville To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 09:29:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...As self-neglecting. Well, the principles of creativity were worked out by looking at people like Mozart, so all it would have done is articulated what they were already doing. I've often drawn on my experiences in DLM to inform my writing. Neville B

Subject: Re: I got a question... From: Livia To: Neville Barnes Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:48:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think possibly meditation can still left-hand brain activity, thereby freeing up the right brain for creative flow. But other things can do it too - see 'The Artist's Way' which recommends the act of writing in a stream of consciousness manner every morning, which is supposed to have the same effect. The opening up to creativity is a fascinating subject - it's all to do with reaching 'the zone' which sportsmen describe as a state of consciousness where they are in a state of flow and magical, almost super-human things happen. I think possibly any meditation can help one reach this 'zone', and it's probably premies' accessing this extremely enjoyable state of consciousness that has led to Maharaji erroneously taking the credit, and premies believing it. I don't see much zone-dwelling in premies these days - the personality cult seems to have completely taken over. Livia

Subject: Or get a severe head injury From: Vicki To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:11:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My neighbor, who received knowledge then exited after listening to last year's Amaroo tapes, had a severe head injury. The left side of her brain shut down, and the right took over. Suddenly she was able to paint, draw, do all sorts of creative things that she never had been able to before. Of course, the counterbalance was she lost all ability to do math and other logical tasks. This continued until the injury healed. Some effects stayed, but not to the creative degree when the injury first happened. So there's always that possibility, getting bonked in the head or devote thirty years of one's life? Hmmmmm.......hard choice that one!

Subject: Re: I got a question... From: Will To: Neville Barnes Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 13:55:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's cheating. (Just kidding). Paul MaCartney woke up one morning with the entire 'Yesterday' already composed. Mozart did stuff like that, too. I went through a period where I attempted OBE's via the Robert Monroe method. It worked for me to the point of lucid dreaming. I really experienced the static brain washes that he talked about, very unpleasant. But I also heard very beautiful music. But sitting with my thumbs in my ears produced only crickets and blood flow sounds, not the stuff of symphony.

Subject: premies aren't hearing anything. [nt] From: Neville. It's starting to look as if To: Will Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:23:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Interesting articles (sociology) From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 08:24:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How I Was Stood Up By The Venusians By Robert Scheer - Published April 1, 1997 in the Los Angeles Times The Concept of Risk by Daniel Brandt Abstract: This article treats political and religious transcendence as two moments of the same psycho-social dynamic. It is primarily an attempt to understand why the collapse of student activism in the sixties necessarily led to various forms of youthful cultism in the seventies. Concepts and categories are borrowed and synthesized from humanistic philosophy and psychology, Marxism, empirical theology, and the physical and natural sciences. The methodology is partly existential and partly empirical, and the structure is designed to encourage the self-reflection and understanding that can lead from indiscriminate cultism back toward self-conscious activism. Coping with new religious competition by David Valleskey SOCIAL CHANGE IN THE U.S. FROM THE 1950s TO 1980 Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future By Seraphim Rose

Subject: Re: Interesting articles (sociology) From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 18:39:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Shit, & just to think all the while we were out there abelieving there were people looking at us from all sorts of different starting points & thinking.....hmmmm. A quick trawl through those articles(too much to digest at a sitting)& it all comes back. Armaggedon was the main thing imo. That's what softened us up for the LOTU,that & getting wrecked on acid. I liked the quotation from CS Lewis...must read that book.Must read lots of books. The guy who was nearly seduced until he got invited to meet the Venusians at the Astrodome really cheered me up.Makes me feel getting sucked into the cult could've happened to anyone..... Thanks.

Subject: Enduring Love From: Bolly To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:36:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a thought At one hour a day for thirty years we will each have spent 11000 hours in meditation. Will use the potential further 11000 hours on something else as I am probably enlightened enough by now. Love Bolly

Subject: Re: Enduring Love From: Thorin To: Bolly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:57:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: one hour a day - thought we were spose to do 2 hours a day 'religiously' :) Also in the cult one can never become enlightened enough, we were always held forever subservient to the true enlightenment of Maharaji. His enlightenment that contains zero morals and ethics, an enlightenment that spoke only of 'that experience', the thirst and gratitude of the Master that, for many of us, led to us clambering over the bodies of others. A true Orwellian paradigm where we were all equal but some more equal than others. But, Bolly, your post contains a massive dose of positive thinking, where without the shackles of Maharajism we can all move forward and realise our true potential as human beings and not some Cult Androids. Android thinking that spits on 'mind' and the 'world', thinking that disparages everything that is beautiful. Like living inside a ping pong ball. As always, thanks for the inspiration Bolly. xoxo Thorin

Subject: Re: Enduring Love From: Bolly To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:23:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, Okay so it's 22000 hours. Whats that between friends I was always a bit of a slacker on that front. You were quoting Janis Joplin in an earlier thread, I love that song but can't find the thread and am back on the timed access. Will only have time to skim the posts. Love Bolly

Subject: Tsk, tsk, Ms Shri.. From: Anthony To: Bolly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:26:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I only have not to post for a couple of days, and you're disparaging meditation again.. Meditation is a beautiful thing, but shouldn't be taken too seriously. I meditate every morning, because I've got the time, and enjoy it. Also, I'm quite spiritual, and do it as an act of homage to the divine spirit. It's pointless to try to break through cosmic barriers through meditation (not that I want to). I've had some peak experiences, but on the whole, the experience is a lot more mundane. It gives me a good lift and makes the day run smoother, but in real life situations you've got to pull your finger out and use your brains. I didn't actually go to Brighton - I chickened out. It's an awful long way away, and the thought of those pallid premie faces put me off. I stopped trying to be too holy years ago. I reckoned the Buddhist middle path or pavement level Christianity was about right - trying to live consciously towards myself and towards others. A spiritual practise in meditation. Loving other people (I still love premies, despite their wierd ways..). Enjoying life in all its facets, thinking and questioning anything to my heart's content.. Drinking with fascinating companions.. I was very sorry to hear you'd had problems in recent years, and hope very much that you have overcome them all. I hope too you have now progressed beyond page 13 of the Progressive Primer Piano Tutor, to at least page 14 or 15. Talking of Janis Joplin - one of my heroines too! - I am now thinking of Turtle Blues: 'I guess I'm just like a turtle, Hidin' neath my horny shell..' as I am presently looking after my niece's tortoise, as she is on holiday in Scotland. I've got quite an amazing garden, in my back yard, with ivy crawling over the walls, clematises dangling in swathes, geraniums completely amuck, roses flowing from terra-cotta pots, and greek statues covered by climbing plants. The tortoise is completely blissing out, amid prolific nature.. I bought an astrology program for the computer years back. As well as drawing up charts, it had a function where you could check out all the women you know (and vice versa) as potential mates, through relative signs and aspects. I entered Janis Joplin's data, and expected myself to come up as her ideal partner. However, her perfect potential mate turned out to be Harold Wilson. That was another 'drip' in my waning belief in the predictive arts... Sorry I didn't meet you all in London last week - it would have been good. Thorin seems to have impressed Livia. 'I have to listen to some paint drying' - excellent! Keep them rolling. Cheers, Anthony

Subject: Christ, Mozart, and ... guess who? From: cq To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:36:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Christ taught us that we can know a man by what be gives to the world. Mozart was a genius at music. Maharaj Ji is a genius at the practical applications of unselfish love' from the book 'Who is Guru Maharaji' - excerpts now online at EPO: click here It'd be funny if it wasn't so sick! - 'practical applications of unselfish love' indeed! And this is about the fat cat that wouldn't give his ashram co-ordinators as little as $2.50 a week!

Subject: That's some intimate circle he's penetrated From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:06:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'When people finally discover who Guru Maharaj Ji is, they'll feel a nice smile inside thinking about how he slipped in the back door just in the nick of time' - Rennie Davis, from the intro to 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Roger?

Subject: Yes... From: Roger eDrek To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 10:35:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that Mister Maharaji is a very nice man when I'm really loaded on cognac.

Subject: I said 'Roger' - roger? From: cq To: Roger eDrek Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:05:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry Roger, you thought I was talking to you? Um, this needs explaining. In the Brits' version of the English language, there are several meanings to the word 'Roger', viz: 1. The armed forces still us the word to mean 'do you read me?' i.e. 'message received?' (you've watched some of those old black-and-white movies from the forties I'm sure). 2. 'roger'. Verb. Transitive. i.e. to 'roger' means to give them one up the jacksie, or as Frank Zappa calls it the 'poop-shoot', i.e. to indulge in anal sex. Roger and out? (er, thinks ... perhaps I should re-phrase that?)

Subject: should I explain 'back-door' too?(nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:48:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: should I explain 'back-door' too?

Subject: I have to draw the line at 'intimate circle'(nt) From: cq To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 11:50:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to draw the line at 'intimate circle'

Subject: Re: That's some intimate circle he's penetrated From: Jerry To: cq Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:08:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The interesting think about that book is that Maharaji claims he never read it. He says he already knew the answer to the question (Who is Guru Maharaji), so why should he read the book? He said the book was ridiculous. This was in the late 80s that I heard him say this. Now, the question that comes to mind is, if he thought the book was so ridiculous why didn't he speak up sooner? He knew premies were treating the book as if it were the bible and recommending it to anybody curious about Knowledge. He should have spoke up then and told premies to quit recommending it. But he didn't. Maybe it would have cut into the profits if he had. Ya think? Just another little something to think about once you let the questions be heard and know that there's really no satisfactory answer, and the trail always seems to lead back to.... money.

Subject: Come on Jerry From: Jethro To: Jerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 05:08:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Now, the question that comes to mind is, if he thought the book was so ridiculous why didn't he speak up sooner?' When are you going to learn that he is not doing all this. After all he didn't write the book, nor did he force people to give him all that money that he really didn't want. I mean he didn't even mention that about the book until th 80s when some untrustuing opeople would say that all the royalties to be gained from the book had been gained. But premies know the Truth. He only accepted the money so as not to offend. I am sure he is rechannelling all that money to starving people, but being humble he prefers to remain quiet about it. I mean you don't just wake up one day with a Rolex and become a Master.

Subject: Re: That's some intimate circle he's penetrated From: Neville To: cq Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:43:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now that Rennie Davis has figured out who M is, Rennie is slipping out the back door as quietly as possible and trying to pretend he never had anything to do with him. Neville

Subject: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: Anthony To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 16:28:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know what happened to Rennie Davis? I remember clearly listening to him at Millennium in Houston. I don't seem to have heard anything about him for many years indeed. So what happened to him, and when and how did he leave the scene? Anthony

Subject: Re: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: Thorin To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 01:19:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He is chairman and managing director of the Humanity Fund whose stated mission is: The Humanity Fund Mission Five business executives with experience in the commercialization of new technologies organized the Fund and its unique business purpose: “breakthrough discoveries” that can positively change the modern condition. The Humanity Fund is a venture development company that seeks new solutions to a range of global challenges. Our current business interest consists of technology solutions in seven areas: Water Waste Air Quality Energy Health Argiculture Housing Individuals or business entities with breakthrough technologies in these seven areas are invited to contact the Humanity Fund No mention in Rennie's bio of his involvement with FatBoy - maybe he is now an ex and would love to share his perspective here if he received a suitable invite. His email address is in his bio. Hey Anthony, did you get to go to Brighton? Looking forward to reading all about it!! Cheers Thorin Rennie Davis www.humanityfund.org/f00.html

Subject: Re: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:13:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin! Hope all's well. Rennie Davis exed years ago - I remember hearing this a couple of decades back. He was one of the original 'yippies' along with Abbie Hoffman and a bit of a 'coup' at the time if my memory serves me well. He decided M was a fake way back, and yes it would be interesting for sure to get his perspective. He may well be unwilling to admit in public that he was ever involved but it could well be worth a try.. Love, Livia

Subject: You've got it all wrong From: Once again... To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 18:00:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And with such confidence! Your info on Rennie is completely inaccurate. You don't seem to have much of a problem with speculating boldly, inaccurately and publically about people you don't know, do you? Not one of the most admirable of character traits, now is it?

Subject: Re: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:26:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Liv Yep all is well, thanks - just mightily busy (I sound like a broken record eh?). I regret now suggesting on a public forum that someone who knows Rennie email him for his perspective. It's not right that we lot go and hassle people just because of their past. I think it is highly likely that Rennie knows about EPO and F7 and if he has chosen not to go public about his perspective then so be it. I choose to post here simply because I choose to not because I am required to. xoxo Thorin ps did you get my email of Wednesday night?

Subject: Re: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: keith To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 12:46:32 (PDT) Email Address: halfacoonass@aol.com Message: You know,I've been checking out EPO for a few months now, and one thing I notice is a deep cynicism for all things spiritual; meditation, enlightenment, other paths and teachers. I read demeaning comments about people who used to be involved in DLM, like Rennie Davis, Bill Patterson, etc. and wonder how one comes to these conclusions, when there's no current first hand knowledge of these people. In the case of the two I mentioned, I know both of these fellows they are wonderful, spiritual, giving, open, evolving humans, who would never sit around and demean anyonemuchless anyone they didn't know personally. They haven't been involved with GMJ for years, and have moved on to realize the Truth within themselves and not wasted precious time bitterly condemning the past. This life is filled with an amazingly diverse selection of paths, teachers, ways, and simple realizations of Truth without any of the above. We all make choices that are less than perfect, or are duped by less-than-Perfect Masters but to get stuck in negative, angry, blaming, cynical attitudes, keeps the problem a problem. Maharaji is still controlling you when you don't completely let go of him. It's like a divorce; many divorcees spend years fighting with, hating, and criticizing thier exes. It's called entanglement, co-dependence, stupidity. I, for one, have chosen to realize my own Self as Consciousness Itself, Presence. And as such, it pains me to see my own brothers and sisters give into the illusion of separation. WAKE UP! Just because you've realized that GMJ is not your Master, don't stop there. Continue on, and leave him and the past behind. Don't let him continue to control you, covertly. Peace and Love to all of you.

Subject: Halfacoonass? Racist pig keith From: gerry To: keith Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 11:46:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peace and Love, yeah, right on. You make up a phony email name which is blatanly racist and offensive, yet you want to give others advice? Incredible...

Subject: Coonass = Cajun From: Katie To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 10:27:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: To some people anyway. Cajun Culture www.cajunculture.com/Other/coonass.htm

Subject: Re: Coonass = Cajun From: gerry To: Katie Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:11:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, it means entirely something else to others. My former business partner was from Lafayette, LA and you arre right about the Cajun slang. I forgot that. Let's hope this guy meant the cajun version. Either way, it's in bad taste, isn't it? Kinda of a racial slur on the Cajuns? Hey, I'm trying to use PC as a bit of a switch on this Keith dude, whom already I don't like, much. Do you think this is the 'real keith'? I think it might be, except for the 'coonass' thing.

Subject: Re: Coonass = Cajun From: Katie To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 12:40:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think it's THAT 'Keith' (a.k.a. Vacol, etc. etc.) - he would never EVEN have thought of having that in his e-mail address (sheesh, he's from Oz!). Also, I didn't think this Keith's post was ALL that bad - have seen similar first posts from others. I don't like the term 'coonass' myself, because of the other connotations, but I know some people use it as a Cajun pride thang. Sorta like they use the Confederate flag around here. (I have gotten way used to THAT, btw.)

Subject: Re: Halfacoonass? Racist pig keith From: Thorin To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 13:35:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi gerry Yeah this guy really reminded me of a thread some time ago. What comes round goes round eh? The pwks in the cult garden are really feeling a lot of disonnance. T click www.ex-premie.org/best/some%20wise%20man%20said.htm

Subject: the 'Lovers' From: gerry To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 13:49:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, I am constantly amazed at the corruption of some of these 'premies.' I shouldn't be though, considering who their 'teacher' is.

Subject: To Keith From: The Falcon To: keith Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 03:50:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jai Sat Chit Anand (without premie connotation). That was a poignant post, Keith. Thank you. It may not be too well-received here but needed to be said. Personally I am of the same mind but think that the intrinsic value of this forum is therapy. There is considerable damage left by Maharaji and divorce is a very suitable analogy but everyone works it out in their own way even 'godless communist lawyers' (very badly missed).Actually I always thought Jim Heller was the Forum 7 equivalent of a brilliant British journalist called Julie Burchill, very funny, highly intelligent, mercurial, always contentious but worthy of respect even when totally disagreeable. Try reading her column in The Guardian newspaper on Saturdays and Jim-WHERE ARE YOU??? Has someone stopped him posting as part of an agreement over the R.E. issue, if that is so-shame on you.

Subject: Gimme a break, Falcon... From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:45:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You liked this wanker's post? You know,I've been checking out EPO for a few months now, and one thing I notice is a deep cynicism for all things spiritual; meditation, enlightenment, other paths and teachers. Horseshit. Plenty of people here meditate and discuss it, Greg has a guru and nobody denigrates him for it and Mickey is a priest who is one of our most respected posters. This disproves this wanker's first statement. I read demeaning comments about people who used to be involved in DLM, like Rennie Davis, Bill Patterson, etc. and wonder how one comes to these conclusions, when there's no current first hand knowledge of these people. This is an out and out lie. You think it's 'poignant?' I sure don't. In the case of the two I mentioned, I know both of these fellows they are wonderful, spiritual, giving, open, evolving humans, who would never sit around and demean anyonemuchless anyone they didn't know personally. They haven't been involved with GMJ for years, and have moved on to realize the Truth within themselves and not wasted precious time bitterly condemning the past. First, I doubt seriously that this creep knows either of these men. And herre it is again: we are stuck in the past, bitter and condemning. This is such a tired old saw I shouldn't have to defend against it. We are here, discussing amongst ourselves, the mindfuck of the Maharaji cult. Of course people are upset over the con job they experienced for most of their lives at great personal expense and loss. This life is filled with an amazingly diverse selection of paths, teachers, ways, and simple realizations of Truth without any of the above. We all make choices that are less than perfect, or are duped by less-than-Perfect Masters but to get stuck in negative, angry, blaming, cynical attitudes, keeps the problem a problem. Maharaji is still controlling you when you don't completely let go of him. This is such crap. We are not stuck, the fucking cult members are stuck! WE are the ones moving on, letting go of the greed guru! Again this wanker is trying to characterize ex-premies as 'stuck in negative, angry, blaming, cynical attitudes.' What we are doing here is working through our false attachment to the guru and his poisonous and destructive 'philosophy.' It's like a divorce; many divorcees spend years fighting with, hating, and criticizing thier exes. It's called entanglement, co-dependence, stupidity. How insulting and arrogant and just plain WRONG. It is not like a divorce, and the real entanglement, co-dependence and stupidity lies with those who remain in the cult. We are the ones going beyond the very thing this wanker accuses us of. I for one, have chosen to realize my own Self as Consciousness Itself, Presence. And as such, it pains me to see my own brothers and sisters give into the illusion of separation. WAKE UP! Well, well, well. A budding guru in our midst! You're a little late, pal we've been there and done that. This 'Wake UP!' shit is really insulting. 'As if' this wanker has anything over any of us. Just because you've realized that GMJ is not your Master, don't stop there. Yeah, continue looking for a 'Master.' This wanker will probably next be telling us HE's it! Continue on, and leave him and the past behind. Don't let him continue to control you, covertly. Huh, I guess 'keith' doesn't understand the dynamics of a mind control personality cult like the Maha's. We are puking this shit out of our systems and this wanker wants us to suck it back up. What I suspect he *really* means is we should all just go away, close our websites and not interfere with the guru business. I'm not taking you to task, Falcon, you are newly exited, I presume. Don't be fooled by these guys, in fact if this is the same Keith who used to post here and I think it is, he sees himself as some sort of a guru and indeed has tried to gather a following. He's no 'higher' than any of us and has a head full of destructive ideas, IMO. Poignant? No. Pathetic and potentially dangerous? Yes. Avoid like the plauge...

Subject: thanks Gerry From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:11:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that somewhat different perspective. These forums take some time to figure out the 'tone' and intention of the posts correctly. I am not newly exited by the way, 3 1/2 years totally and 6 years of processing before that. keep up the good work.

Subject: yer welcome, Falcon look out for catweasel From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 18:42:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well now I feel like a bit of a wanker for as many times as I referred to that fine gentleman as one. Some of my friends tell me I'm a little intense sometimes. I have no idea what they are on about... :)

Subject: The intensity is great, don't change that (NT) From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:59:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Right on, Gerry... From: Cynthia To: gerry Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 14:40:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Gerry, I agree with you. While we've discussed Bill Patterson and Rennie Davis before, I never heard bad things said about him. I liked Bill Patterson. Rennie Davis is famous because he was a Yippie. This guy Keith is a looser. You on a roll? Lots of Doc/Roupell posts here. I guess it's too boring on LG, btw, where they discuss you and F7 ALL THE TIME....blah..blah...blah... you know who;) Love, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks Cynth From: gerry To: Cynthia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 14:48:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I put a lot into that post and this whole F7 administering is taking a lot of my time and sometimes I get really tired and cranky with these Roupell, keith and Carlos-like characters. I really appreciate your support, especially right now. :) I'm not surprised they talk about me and today was the first time I read there in weeks since CD blocked me. I won't be back. It's a lot of annoying tripe anyway.

Subject: Re: moved on to realize the Truth From: AV To: keith Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 16:01:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You say 'They haven't been involved with GMJ for years, and have moved on to realize the Truth within themselves and not wasted precious time bitterly condemning the past.' Keith... How on EARTH would you know that???? Forgive me if I indulge in semantics, but as you spell Truth with a capital 'T', it implies that this is a universal truth common to all, i.e. the source of life and conciousness. You ever heard the term 'omnipresent'? that's right, it exists evrywhere, not just 'within', but without..filling every atom in the endless universe. So I presume you must have realised this too, otherwise how could you judge another to have reached the so called state of realisation. As if, from the top of the mountain, you can see who is where on the climb; but from the bottom, the light gets in your eyes. So truth is not just within, it is all about you; you may sense it from within your being, but that's kinda simplistic, because where else would you sense it from? you sense every feeling and emotion within, the human awareness is a giant receptor. Accepting unconditionally that certain experiences within the range of your receptor are superior, infinite, deathless; and that others are pitfalls on the path, dead ends, blind alleys; leads to some 'peak experiences' of a mystical nature, but also leaves gaping holes in your ability to cope with life in the main, because so much of it had been pushed aside in an attempt to renounce the material and seek the ultimate goal. This process of selective awareness and its resulting dysfunctionality did not happen overnight, and it will not be cured by morning. you see, Keith, there's a lot of love here on the forum, not neccesarily the gooey quasi-gopi variety, but the love of people who recognise there is something to be resolved, something to be released; and that part of the journey is different for all: some have experienced abuse, pain, degradation; others upliftment and a sense of salvation. One thing you won't see here is WE ALL MUST..... because we all had too much of that, so don't tell us all to move on, we are not a herd of cattle, we are individuals valueing an essential debate. When that time comes for each of us to move, in whatever direction each of us choose, we surely will, as INDIVIDUALS. We are not EXES or PWKs or any other label of convenience, we are human beings who have shared a mighty and unusual experience, and it is our right and blessing to work through whatever it is we need to work through in whatever way feels best for each of us; how could it ever be any other way?

Subject: Re: moved on to realize the Truth From: Bolly To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:27:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: AV That was eloquent and heartfelt and very good to read. Thanks for being inspiring and supportive your posts always cut through the crap. Love Bolly

Subject: wellsaid, AV [nt] From: Livia To: AV Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: What happened to Rennie Davis? From: Thorin To: keith Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 14:39:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Keith Pray tell me where the demeaning comments about Rennie is mentioned in my post above? I simply stated that it would be useful to know what his perspective is about the past. Seeing that you know Rennie very well perhaps you would kindly relay to him that there is some geniune interest in his perspective and, if he wants, he is very welcome to come here and engage with people who are interested. If he does not want to do this directly he can always contact either the FA for F7 or the FA for EPO. Talking and exploring about the past does not mean, in my opinion, that one is suffering from 'entanglement, co-dependence and stupidity', it simply is a means to fully understanding what cult influences we all had laid on us, you included. You will find if you engaged with people on this forum with honesty and integrity that many, if not all, of posters here have woken up and are indeed 'moving on'. Have you? Your post gives no clues whatsoever. Should I assume that you still follow Maharaji and, if so, what is your perspective of the various allegations made against him? One small thing I am intrigued about is your email address. You do realise, I hope, that your email address can be taken as deeply offensive from a racist point of view? Did you intend that? Looking forward to your further posts - which hopefully will not project 'I know better than you guys' tone. Thorin

Subject: Who is this cracker? From: gerry To: keith Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 13:12:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another spiritually enlightened soul, no doubt. I've been reading this board for a bit longer than you, pal, and I've yet to read anything 'demeaning' about Bill Patterson or Rennie Davis. So back up your accusation with the quotes or shut the fuck up. Yes, there is a wide variety of spiritual quackery in 'this life.' Just because we provide the truth about the con man we were duped by doesn't mean we are 'stuck, angry (although you are pissing me off), all that happy horese shit you cult apologists like to heap upon ex-premies. I suppose nexxt you'll be telling us to 'get a life.' , for one, have chosen to realize my own Self as Consciousness Itself, Presence. And as such, it pains me to see my own brothers and sisters give into the illusion of separation. WAKE UP! Just because you've realized that GMJ is not your Master, don't stop there. Continue on, and leave him and the past behind. Don't let him continue to control you, covertly. What arrogance. 'Wake up' indeed. What a wanker...

Subject: rennie brought me to knowledge From: janet To: Anthony Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 00:52:55 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: i first saw him in a charred black former disco the new york premies used as a satsang hall in early 73, and i was Sold. i figured, hey man, no one could fool an experienced radical politico like rennie davis, and if he said maharaji was gonna bring Peace On Earth in Our Time, the real thing, then it had to Be. a year later i was in denver, going with rennie door to door, selling office art to downtown businesses, trying to make money to pay off Millennium. i saw him around from time to time, and learned later that he had gotten into the alternative energy push, up in the mountains, apparently created some kind of a foundation to find and help enterprising types explore developing innovative ways to extract energy from sources other than oil, during the 70's oil crisis. A girlfreind of mine drove the two of us up there to have some kind of off the cuff appointment with him in the driveway of this Greystone place, a kind of lodge/ mansion outside of evergreen colorado, among the pines. It was a very flaky encounter. rennie was as spacy and overblown and cryptic as ever, leaving her with nothing tangible to go on for their having spoken. i think she had some idea or project she thought his organization would provide her the funding for. nothing ever came of it. the last time i remember seeing him was at a program MJ called in loveland in around 91 or 92, and Rennie didnt recognize me or remember me, though i didnt look any different than i ever did. as a matter of fact, that was one of the more chilling drips, that stayed with me a long time. i cant recall ever seeing him at any of the Long Beach events in the 90's, though it seems everyone else from Denver managed to make it to LA for those. so I guess he's left. either that, or he's one of those super exclusive FOP's [Friends of Prem's] who has so much money he never has to deign to come down among the hoi polloi and suffer the indignities of regular rules. Prem might only invite him to the Private Fundraiser parties now. maybe he can be found on the web someplace. If rennie's as cosmic, save the earth oriented as he always seemed to be, it seems he would have something up somewhere. you know him--always out there, floating, where he's been convinced the farthest edge is. He's probably into something like Total Ascension or the Polar Shift or something, now. weird. some people actually grow up, mature, and get a clue. and then there are those who don't. if you do find him, bring it here.

Subject: i found this on him From: janet To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 01:01:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In a fast search on msn, this is what i found on him. 'Venture capitalist' sounds about right. He oughta be a speaker at the Whole Life Expo, by the sound of it. Seen em, been there, moved on. Rennie's web biography www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Chicago7/DavisR.htm

Subject: Great link, Janet... From: Cynthia To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 12:06:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It links to some wacky pix on the Chicago Seven Trial webpage. Thanks! Cynth

Subject: How about Randy Lamont?? From: Brian Smith To: Anthony Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 17:56:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I haven't seen at events or heard from either of them for years. Randy LaMont was a feature in our Portland Oregon community and was hailed as a miracle for surviving his stab wounds ('The Stabbing of Randy Lamont') while working at a local convienience store. We all got a lot of satsang mileage out of his story backed up by the book ' and his physical presence. I saw an ad Rennie Davis had placed in USA today 5 or 6 years ago advertising some income opportunity, but I cannot recall seeing him at programs since the mid seventies. Randy Lamont vanished from the scene right around that same time never to be seen or heard from as a premie anyway since that I know of. Randy was a very compassionate and sincere person, a real gentleman, it would be interesting to hear his take on things today no matter what side of the fence he is on.

Subject: What happened to Jim, Dep, PatC - all that lot? [nt] From: ? To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 11:56:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: They transcended. From: JHB To: ? Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 13:32:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It happens to all sincere seekers of truth eventually. But why stop at those three? Most posters here over the years have stopped posting. Some come back after a while, others don't. I'd like to stop posting as well, but I've got a few things I need to do first. John.

Subject: Re: They transcended? From: Dep To: JHB Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 08:34:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Transcended? Not yet John, not me anyway. I stopped posting here regularly because of the high levels of antagonism I've experienced. It's almost impossible to carry on a serious conversation here without harassment. It just became an unpleasant experience.

Subject: Agreed. I'm just passin' through [nt] From: Neville To: JHB Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 15:43:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Slippin' in the back door From: Back Door Man To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 12:41:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like a thief in the night. He comes, he steals, he laughs in your face. If he tries to slip in through my back door he'll have two Doberman's to reckon with, Smith and Wesson. Sick 'em boys.

Subject: Oops, now I'm angry again From: Will To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 09:10:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was just about getting to the point where I could 'live and let live.' What's the harm if Prem Rawat wants to encourage people toward 'Self-Knowledge' and those people enjoy their involvement, attempting to gain that Self-Knowledge? But then I had to go and read what Prem Rawat tells people at the public events. And I read Seth's new journey entry. And I read a premie's account of one of the programs. And I talked with an old premie friend. There's a problem here. And it really irks me. Rawat tells people that he can give them something. And he seems to want to believe that himself. He wants people to 'look him up' and accept his gift, and then dedicate the rest of their lives making effort to be happy via that gift. And he doesn't want to hear any questions or problems, only expressions of gratitude. But what does he actually deliver? Look at his students. Do they have anything that other people don't have? Anything at all? Well, I know a lot of his students, and they aren't any better off than anybody else. Like the guru himself asked them, 'Did you receive Knowledge?' Well, what's the answer? The answer is no. And the answer will remain no. Self-Knowledge cannot be given or received. And no matter how dutifully a student follows Mr. Rawat, they never end up with anything that they didn't have anyway, and which everybody has without Mr. Rawat and the four techniques. My premie friend said that he weeps because of his ignorance. Fine thing to say for someone who has had the benefit of Rawat's 'gift' for 30 years. But the problem is, that ignorance is why he continues to look toward Rawat, expecting some sort of transformation. But what can Rawat do? Can he change human ignorance into knowing? Knowing what? God-realization? A marriage with the Infinite? Or a peaceful feeling inside and an acceptance of life's realities? If it's the later, then that is available anyway. One premie reporter enjoyed his recent session with Prem Rawat and announced that there is no more question about why somebody needs a Master. When an old dried-up sponge gets a little water then the benefit is obvious, he says. But does that premie ask himself why he is likening himself to 'an old dried-up sponge' (or whatever exact metaphor he used)? When will it occur to that premie's understanding that he was supposed to have received the gift of 'SELF-Knowedge?' Did he RECEIVE it? Yet? Maybe later? Or is Self-Knowledge simply realizing that you are an old dried-up sponge? What Rawat actually offers people is cult membership, a belief system, and a very narrow path to follow in life. What premies have that other people don't have is their studentship of Prem Rawat. Period. They listen to his talks, spend their money to see him, and practice four techniques of meditation, continually trying to make their efforts to transform themselves into 'that experience.' It is a never ending process of studentship to a teacher. That's it. Every human being has the potential to realize the message of their own inner heart. All they have to do is live their lives and listen to their own inner voice. They can quiet the mind's superficial jabbering with any meditation technique that suits them. They don't even have to meditate, ever, if they don't like it. But they do have to live as authentically as they possible can. They do have to search for meaning and joy within the story of the human life they are living. They do have to love as they want to be loved. And they do have to do it the hard way, on their own. There ain't no easy way. These are the facts of life. These are sufficient. Premies make a very big mistake when they experience the feeling of love in their hearts and think that this is a gift that they have received from Mr. Rawat. And Mr. Rawat makes an even bigger mistake when he himself both believes and claims that he has something to give people. The answer is no, Mr. Rawat, none of your students have received Knowledge. Self-Knowledge is not given. All you do is indenture those people to servitude to yourself. Maybe you know that already and that suits you just fine. Or maybe you don't want to face that truth. After all, that truth will set them free, and do you really want them to be free?

Subject: Excellent,and BEST OF...nt From: Jim S. To: Will Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 11:07:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ee

Subject: ***** BEST OF FORUM **** From: Jerry To: Will Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:30:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Outstanding post. Cuts through all the malarkey and says it for what it is. I'd definitely put this one in the Best of Forum. It makes you think, and be honest, if you dare to.

Subject: Re: Oops, now I'm angry again From: Kelly To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 09:50:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Great post Will, and I know exactly what you mean. I met with two premie friends yesterday who told me all about Brighton. they had such a lovely time, it was the best event ever, they had great seats and could see all his expressions!! And I thought to myself, where's the harm? if it makes them happy. And I remembered how I used to feel after an event and I remembered all the wonderful experiences that I used to attribute to him. And there's no doubt that he says a lot of good things, they're not anything new, but he says that too! Your post got me thinking ....Has he done more harm than good? and vice verca. Is it more harmful to be a member of the Rawat cult than to belong to one of the larger mainstream cults and attend church or temple regularly for a shot of the opium of the masses? It makes them feel good too. Its just a feel good club! I was going to say...a mutual adoration society, but then I rememberd that the adoration goes one way only. As to the question of 'where's the harm?' I think the damage is subtle, in my case anyway, and I'm still assessing it. I feel that I wasted many years believing that I was part of the greatest event in the history of mankind, that I was walking the noblest path and of course that I was following the perfect master of our time. Believing this (because he said so!) cut me off from everything else that was going on. Since I left the cult I have discovered so many wonderful sources of inspiration, so much more intelligent and humane, and more importantly I have opened up to the simple and heroic wisdom of ordinary human beings. Those same people that I used to feel slightly sorry for, slightly superior to, because they were not open enough to accept M and his 'gift' The damage is subtle but it goes deep, which is why we're all still here working on it! Karen

Subject: Pass the joint.. From: Anthony To: Kelly Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:34:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the same old story. When you're with Maharaji (or the source of choice), a temporary liberation is experienced, as the mind is stilled, and a beautiful dislocation occurs. Perhaps it's a truly spiritual experience, maybe merely mentally soporific. When you come down, however, the same old problems of life are still there, and still to be resolved. A true teacher will give you the training to approach life, instil the right attitudes, extol the correct principles. A phoney one neglects all this, and offers a temporary panacea, covered in vagueries, and dangles out a carrot of ultimate realisation which is forever out of reach. Refreshing the spirit is a great thing, but it all just falls through holes in the bucket again unless accompanied by correct attitude and the will to love and grow. Anthony

Subject: The same old story From: Anthony To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:24:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's the same old story. When you're with Maharaji (or the source of choice), a temporary liberation is experienced, as the mind is stilled, and a beautiful dislocation occurs. Perhaps it's a truly spiritual experience, maybe merely mentally soporific. When you come down, however, the same old problems of life are still there, and still to be resolved. A true teacher will give you the training to approach life, instil the right attitudes, extol the correct principles. A phoney one neglects all this, and offers a temporary panacea, covered in vagueries, and dangles out a carrot of ultimate realisation which is forever out of reach. Refreshing the spirit is a great thing, but it all just falls through holes in the bucket again unless accompanied by correct attitude and the will to love and grow. Anthony

Subject: Re: Oops, now I'm angry again From: Livia To: Kelly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:27:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kelly, Good post above. I spoke to a premie friend a couple of days ago about Brighton, and he was also 'blown away'. I've talked to him about EPO issues which seemed to give him pause for thought at the time, but he has now decided that none of it matters! Jagdeo - well, what the hell! Maharaji's affairs - who cares! 'The point is' that my friend had a wonderful time with all the warm fuzzy feelings that being in his presence gave him, so that's alright then. I know it's an extreme analogy but I'll use it anyway because it's instructive. In a book called 'In the Name of Love' the commandant of Treblinka is described by his wife. 'Such a kind, loving man' she sighed. He only ever treated her with the utmost sensitivity and tenderness - she really couldn't bear to think about the things he got up to during the day. When he came home to her all that mattered was the way he treated her and their child. 'A perfect husband and father' she remembered. Her intense need of him enabled her to dissemble and somehow rationalise and accept everything else he did. Her weakness is all too human, it seems. If less people were prepared to accept unacceptable behaviour in the people they love/need, less of the miscreants would get away with the things they do. But in an unequal relationship, such as with Frau Treblinka and her husband, or the premies and Maharaji, the controller sets the agenda. Basically he does whatever he likes because he knows the love/need is guaranteed. Maharaji knows this very well. Livia

Subject: Thanks Livia From: NikW To: Livia Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 12:23:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That one seems significant, though I can't quite articulate why. I may have to consider that there is at least one small part of me that is Frau Treblinka - Ugh ! Still thanks for posting. Nik

Subject: Well said Kelly & Will From: Seymour To: Kelly Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 04:13:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your posts. That where's the harm feeling is one I try not to fall into. I still feel it is important to be tolerant of anyone's beliefs but it is the actions of those who mislead others that should not be tolerated. And to quote you, Kelly... 'I feel that I wasted many years believing that I was part of the greatest event in the history of mankind, that I was walking the noblest path and of course that I was following the perfect master of our time. Believing this (because he said so!) cut me off from everything else that was going on. ' In my post to Katie below I tried to say the same thing but less succintly. Cheers Seymour.

Subject: great post, very profound, Kelly(nt) From: The Falcon To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 16:15:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Great Post, Kelly From: Tim G To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 10:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: timgitti@indig Message: Hi Karen Yep, it's a subtle damage and a very exclusive attitude that Maharajism (amongst other beliefs) breeds. I feel so allergic to it now and like most exes can smell it a mile off. BTW I lost your phone number and wanted to reply to your call some time back. Get in touch if you feel like it. Love Tim

Subject: To Tim G ot From: Kelly To: Tim G Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 06:00:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just tried to e-mail you but it wouldn't go. Is that your full address?

Subject: Re: Oops, now I'm angry again From: Bolly To: Will Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:44:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent stuff Will Love Bolly

Subject: To Indoctrinated From: Will To: In Doctrinated Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 07:12:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Indoctrinated, I have been involved with these forums since I renounced Rawat in 1997. I have engaged in dialogue with many premies. But I have recently decided to never talk to people who don't have their own names. I'm just funny that way. Call me peculiar, or call me whatever, but I'm not afraid to use my name. As to your challenge, I'll answer it if you want to dialogue intelligently and frankly and with names intact. But if you want to come here anonymously and then leave without debating respectfully and honorably, then go away. However, I will refer you to my book, 'Unbounded Light,' published in 1992 and still available as used copies at Amazon.com. In that book, I collected many of the type of pretty selection that you provided in your challenge. I now reject guruism in all its fairy tale manifestations. We cannot authentically approach the mysteries hand in hand with some other finiteness. It's a private party. I don't reject all expressions of the human relationship to Universal Mind, just those who advertise their own versions. Yuck.

Subject: for In-doctrinated From: The Falcon To: In Doctrinated Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:13:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how can you possibly speak of Maharaji in the company of Rumi and Kabir? 1) Rumi and Kabir are wonderful poets, Maharaji is not. 2) Rumi could dance, Maharaji cannot (wobble, maybe?) 3) Both Rumi and Kabir could sing, Maharaji .....well answer that yourself. Love from The Falcon (who can sing, dance and write poetry-without a 'master'!!)

Subject: I just feel that M is From: Docan'tdance To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 20:45:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: on the same sort of path as Rumi and Kabir were. I don't know if he is as realised or as clear as them but I think he comes up with some pretty good quotes from time to time when he speaks at events. Interestingly, we went down to Ewingsdale hall last night to hear two Persian musicians play their traditional instruments with two westerners, one who played harp the other who recited Rumi's poetry. It was fabulous, except the hall has really bad ventilation and a few people had winter colds. Great vibe though, they tour around and create the feeling of harmony and peace that Rumi is fabled for. A very Byron Bay night!:) Doc- who wonders why McDuck wasn't there as he could have written a piece for the Echo...?

Subject: To Doc From: The Falcon To: Docan'tdance Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 03:56:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sorry,mate but there is no comparison although M.is a brilliant public speaker with great timing and delivery even if the material borders on the banal. As for full moon parties in Byron Bay and wonderful Sufi music I have turned as green as that damn fine Nimbin weed. I love that part of the world.

Subject: Also.... From: Jethro To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 05:14:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Rumi and Kabir did not hide behind their followers and could speak up for themselves. Jethro who can still enjoy the bliss of Arti without.....

Subject: To Falcon re indoctrinated Roupell From: Livia To: The Falcon Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 04:22:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In Doctrinated is Doc (David Roupell) in case you hadn't realised. He obviously still believes M is the Perfect Master, divine incarnation of the same calibre as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Rumi, Kabir and all the rest of 'em. That indoctrination runs deep. He said it... Love, Livia

Subject: How very, very sad! (nt) From: The Falcon To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 16:18:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Oops indeed.... From: AV To: In Doctrinated Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 02:06:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yeah, but Rumi was a poet, an artist, and wrote words of beauty...

Subject: Try this Doc. From: The Falcon To: Behind8ballDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 03:58:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The Gift-pems by Hafiz translated by Daniel Ladinsky and published by Penguin Arkana- awesome!

Subject: Falcon you need an enema... From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 10:50:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love ya, bro, but you sure are full of this shit. At the risk of sounding like a copycat, may I suggest you read some evolutionary science ala Richard Dawkins, et al. Beats the bejesus outta this prescientific, superstitious Rumi ruminations stuff.

Subject: what kind, Gerry From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 13:18:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Columbian? coffee or cocaine? Yes you guessed- reconstructed (very) hippy mystic but freeing myself more and more of belief systems. What do you recommend by Dawkins? I still like Hafiz though, and Blake, even your own Uncle Walt! all the best

Subject: Absolutely, Best of forum! From: Brian Smith To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 15:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Every human being has the potential to realize the message of their own inner heart. All they have to do is live their lives and listen to their own inner voice. They can quiet the mind's superficial jabbering with any meditation technique that suits them. They don't even have to meditate, ever, if they don't like it. But they do have to live as authentically as they possible can. They do have to search for meaning and joy within the story of the human life they are living. They do have to love as they want to be loved. And they do have to do it the hard way, on their own. There ain't no easy way. These are the facts of life. These are sufficient. I concur with Livia, Gerry, Vicki and Cynthia and probably more to come that this is the stuff that really cuts through the clouds. Wow ! Just brilliant Will, you have said it all in these few paragraphs. I see in your words and hear from you a clear and strong voice that has truly come to honest terms and faced many profound yet simple truths in life. This is wisdom of the highest order, and what you have said here today has more substance and value than anything I can recall hearing in the 29 years of listening to the vacuous metaphoric drivel of the false master. I celebrate your freedom from the cult and M Will, your post makes it so obvious that you have cleaned this area up in your life. I also rejoice in my own acknowledgement of the truth that I have heard here today for it allows me to own up to my own self freedom, my own self knowledge, my own personal sense of self worth free from the bongage of emotional dependance on falsehoods and myths. If I am nothing more than a dried up sponge then this is water that is worth soaking up. Thanks Will

Subject: **yes, BEST OF, best of!**** [nt] From: Francesca To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 15:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dried up sponges... From: Cynthia To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 15:00:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Will, Great post! I liked this part: Every human being has the potential to realize the message of their own inner heart. All they have to do is live their lives and listen to their own inner voice. They can quiet the mind's superficial jabbering with any meditation technique that suits them. They don't even have to meditate, ever, if they don't like it. But they do have to live as authentically as they possible can. They do have to search for meaning and joy within the story of the human life they are living. They do have to love as they want to be loved. And they do have to do it the hard way,on their own. There ain't no easy way. These are the facts of life. These are sufficient. I've learned a lot from experience and from conversing on this board that Maharaji offers no panacea to living. He thinks he does, programmed premies think he does, but it's a fallible offering to people which he seems pleased with himself to continue in his quest, his thirst, for material things. For someone to unknowningly attend a public program and hear this crap is dangerous; it's a common human trait to want an easy and quick fix to life's misadventures and misfortunes. Yet that mentality is that of a two or four year old who lives life at that age thinking the whole world revolves around them. It's a developmental stage in a child's growth to be this way. With good parenting, a child learns and grows out of this stage of wanting instant this or instant that. This is not the case with premies. One has only to read Life's Great or Enjoying Life to see that these people, as I was, are engaged in two to four year old thinking. I can't imagine what it's like for someone in their 40s and 50s who still pledge their allegiance to Maharaji as the provider of the water that fills up the dried up sponges. What a demeaning remark, too! Dried up sponges. At age 22 when I first signed on to the Maharajism cult I was far from a dried up sponge. If anything, his limitations on my life caused me too feel dried up, depressed, and beneathe contempt. And Maharaji is the one who did this, not premies. I believe it's important to remember that premies are the same as we were before we pulled ourselves away from Maharaji and his warped system of thinking and living. Anyway, real good post. Thanks, Cynthia

Subject: Thanks From: Will To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 08:07:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks, Cynthia, and the others who complimented my post. (A little alternative splash from Jim might go good here). My best to Brian S., who I know has recently been looking at life from a viewpoint that may be higher and clearer, but one that I wouldn't wish for him. Cynthia, you highlighted the parts that make me angry. (1) The false picture that Rawat presents to people, and (2) the way that the premies stay stuck in a self-demeaning attitude. As for the first concern, Rawat actually has evolved away from the 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' days. And he has evolved away from Shri Hans in a way that is appropriate, as far as it goes. He says things now and then that are right-on. He once said, 'this Knowledge gives you nothing,' followed by an embarrased giggle. It would be interesting if Rawat ever really came clean and said what he was really thinking. But if he evolved the whole way, he'd be out of his job. I don't think he would know what to do with himself. As he has said in the last few days, what he gets out of all this is love (he didn't mention any of the other perks he enjoys, such as unpaid labor to satisfy his every whim). And that is what premies get out of it, the feeling of love between Master and his group of students. Most premies, of course, do not get that feeling of love between Rawat and themselves personally, so they settle for the group love sessions. So the problem for Rawat's cult is how to be totally honest and truthful and still maintain the group love thing. If Rawat came out and acknowledged that he doesn't really know jack about anything, the enthusiasm of his students would certainly dwindle dangerously. And if Rawat announced at his public events that his gift of four techniques is something that nobody really particularly likes doing, (and thus the need for constant reminders), the response might be less than desirable. As for the second concern, I was able to read the invitation that the premies in my city sent to Rawat recently, when everybody was discreetly informed that Rawat was accepting such invitations. They spent $200.00 on the invitation and expressed it in a poem, a very bad move now that we know Rawat requests no poetry. (Maybe that's why Rawat only went as far as Pasadena after receiving those invitations from all over the USA). Anyway, in the poem, the premies described themselves as 'coconuts' thirsting for the rain that Rawat provides. The water metaphor is a groaner, by now, and the only original thing was the coconut in place of sponge or dying man in the middle of the desert. But see, this is the same problem, if Self-Knowledge ever satisfied any of the premies, Rawat would be out of his job again. So the love fest continues, and all is well in Amaroo. Good night. p.s. fine dining is selling out fast!

Subject: ***best of forum*** nomination [nt] From: Livia To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:03:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: And Livia, you have some brilliant posts From: Francesca To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 15:55:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... yourself. I've been enjoying them when I peek in here from time to time. Bests, Francesca

Subject: ****Best Of Forum**** From: gerry To: Will Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:20:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: ***Brilliant**** From: Vicki To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:44:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: ***Best of Forum(nt)**** From: Tim G To: Vicki Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 05:15:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yipeee

Subject: The 'podgy guru'. From: AJW To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 05:05:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Here's an interesting quote from Nick Hornbys' new book, How to Be Good. He's trying to guess somebody's religion. 'I try to think of other world religions that might fit the bill and fail. Moslem doesn't seem right, or Hindu...Maybe a Hare Krishna offshoot, or something involving self-denial and some podgy guru driving around in an Alfa Romeo?' It's nice to see the Captain's message has finally reached the real world. Antha Romeo the podgy.

Subject: Re: The 'podgy guru'. From: Thorin To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 07:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Re Fat Gurus in Cars I seem to remember a story of when The Holi One from Malibu was given an Aston Martin, he responded after looking at the back seats with 'It isn't big enough to have a f*ck in' - or words to that effect. I remember thinking at the time 'very funny, but does he actually do that sort of stuff in the back of cars, airplanes yes, but cars?!' Thorin - not a member of the mile high club, yet :) But perhaps I will say a little prayer instead. Oh Prem, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So Prem, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? Oh Prem, won’t you buy me a color TV ? Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me. I wait for delivery each day until three, So oh Prem, won’t you buy me a color TV ? Oh Prem, won’t you buy me a night on the town ? I’m counting on you, Lord, please don’t let me down. Prove that you love me and buy the next round, Oh Prem, won’t you buy me a night on the town ? Everybody! Oh Lord Prem, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends, Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So oh Lord Prem, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? With apologies to my friend Janis Joplin

Subject: Re: The 'podgy guru'. From: Neville To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 05:23:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'It's nice to see the Captain's message has finally reached the real world' ...And with such accuracy re his priorities. Neville

Subject: Anyone want a free trip to Amaroo? From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 00:43:44 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: MP, who I assume is David Roupell posted the following on LG:- Please send an emmisary to Amaroo in September to meet with me and other CC members. After meeting us in person he/she will most definitely know who is awake or not. The love in the heart and fire in the soul is projected very clearly through the eyes. The energy of a high soul is palpable when one is in close proximity. It is both unmistakable and irrefutable. How about it? Come on, someone surely has the courage. I will pay the return air fare to Brisbane and accomodation expenses if they guarantee NOT to attempt to disrupt the event in any way shape or form (and have a Stat Dec to that effect signed by a JP). I can't make it as I have a rather important personal event at that time, but assuming David is serious, it's a good offer. John. David's offer www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=13615.5349550317

Subject: Re: Anyone want a free trip to Amaroo? From: Neville To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:39:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Heck, I'm up for it. As a student of human nature, it could be sorta interesting to see all those Stepford types close up, and you can bet I'll have reams to report when I get back. I'll even promise not to disrupt their programme. Of course, that will not preclude me making loud mention of Monica Lewis, Indian cyclists etc in the unlikely event that I get within earshot of M. And of course, MP would have to promise to hide all the hammers. Neville

Subject: Thanks, but NO!... From: Cynthia To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:10:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi John, Hi John, I find it interesting that on Life's Grate so much complaining goes on about ex-premies. I also find it telling that they don't discuss much about how freakin' great their lives are but go on and on and on, much like fatboy, about a lot of nothing. Interesting offer from Roupell...but with conditions. So much like Maharaji...receive this free self-knowledge, and the conditions come later to the unsuspecting... Cynthia

Subject: Brighton Revisited From: Peg To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 18:24:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello again everybody On Monday I went to pay my last respects to thirty years of cult membership. I had a great time, coming away feeling free and enlightened and part of the human race. The best thing for me was that, as well as confirming my separation from the cult, I also found that I was free from my previous (rather evangelical) desire to convert everyone else to my perspective. Thus I could enjoy seeing people as people and not just as premies. No one seems to talk much about their feelings for maharaji anyway. I just read a report of the event on enjoyinglife which described it as spectacular and best ever. For anyone who is interested here is my version. BRIGHTON REVISITED Everything looked the same outside, a few old hippies in full costume and quite a lot of fairly normal looking people chatting in bundles or looking about for familiar faces. The average age was probably 40. Smartly dressed premies at the door and then the first surprise. Bag search and metal detectors, quite inoffensive really, they didn't actually look in my bag, just asked if I had a mobile (turn it off!) or a camera (not allowed). The foyer was pretty much the same, no Visions or Elan Vital but they were still selling stuff (didn't look). I had a smart card but some of my friends didn't and got interrogated. This sounds a bit of a larf! One of them was told to keep talking until she said 'I don't practice much' and then they let her in. In the hall there were bright lights, no new age music or videos. Maharaji wore a yellow shirt and started off asking 'Did you really receive knowledge' and then went on in his usual style...lots of loosely linked metaphors and pronouncements. This was the first time had ever listened to him with my mind in gear. I can see why he doesn't encourage it. I was able to listen (as opposed to a video I watched when newly exed where I felt sick..). Perhaps this is a sign that I have now got him out of my system. But he now longer seemed to be saying inspiring and wise things. Nor did he seem funny. That man smiles more than Tony Blair, cueing in the giggles from the audience. He reminded me of my 3-year-old granddaughter who, courting my ever ready adoration, turns and smiles before she shows me how high she can jump. quite OK for a 3 year old I think but I have never seen any other grown man speak that way in public (or private come to think of it) Surely he doesn't do that at introductory events. Anyway his main point seemed to be that we should let ourselves be overwhelmed by knowledge. If I'm honest I must say there was a small voice in the back of my mind saying 'What if he's right? after all you have never been overwhelmed have you?' But I couldn't take it at all seriously as more than evidence of his manipulation. The bit that was really hard to stomach was what he called 'A treat for you'(!!!!). Basically a chance for whoever wanted (and many did) to get the mike and tell him how much they love him and how great he is. One woman wanted to know the correct spelling and pronunciation of her son's name (which he had given 21 years ago). She was treated in a very dismissive way, he obviously couldn't remember himself or be bothered to find out. The whole program seemed to be about him getting adored. It was a good experience for me though as I saw for myself a lot of things I have heard others say about him and best of all, experienced my freedom from it all. I won't need to do it again. Peg

Subject: Re: Brighton Revisited From: Bolly To: Peg Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:23:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Peg That was excellent, a really objective account. Thanks for posting it. Love Bolly

Subject: Charlotte's somewhat silly perspective From: Livia To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 11:24:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thought I'd post this here for your perusal. A spectacular event 23 July 2002 A report from Charlotte Wolff 'Beaming from start to finish, Maharaji wore a primrose yellow shirt, an open grey jacket and no tie. Set against a luminous, blue and turquoise backdrop, he looked immaculate. He started with a question and a mischievous smile: 'Did we really receive Knowledge?' he asked. Having caught our attention with this Zen-like query, he talked about the combination of fire and water. When water comes in contact with fire something amazing happens. At first the fire is established and it starts to pass on its nature to the water. But when there is enough water, it can overwhelm the fire. The fire cools down and starts to receive the water's characteristics. This principle of being overwhelmed is really interesting if you pay attention to it, he said. It is a simple rule, and we should not be afraid of being overwhelmed. He spoke of the confusion we bring with us when we come to receive Knowledge. And then the beauty of being overwhelmed by the awareness of this existence. Another analogy brought home the same point. When you play around with cars and your hands are black with grease, you need to clean them with soap. At first the soap just becomes black, but if you just keep washing and washing the soap's original colour is eventually restored. 'Beautiful is the nature of being cleansed. Beautiful is the nature of understanding. The nature of Knowledge is that it clears the doubt.' He said how much he hates speculation. He described how he grows uncomfortable if a conversation starts to get speculative. Why not just pick up the phone and find out the facts? Are your hopes made up of little bits of speculation glued together with bits of memories from the past? If so, they are not securely founded, he said. In contrast, he talked about the glory of simplicity and how the fanfare sounds out, on the inside, when simplicity comes. 'Celebration begins instantly in that moment when you have accepted that simplicity of this breath, of this existence. No more doubt.' And then he came back to the original question: 'Have you received Knowledge in your life?' The penny began to drop. To receive Knowledge in your life means to open the door of the heart, he said (smile broadening here).Like bread making you don't take chances with the process. It has to rise. It has to be kneaded. Even traditional bread makers still measure the ingredients. You need patience and every part of the process is important. 'When I ask have you received Knowledge I mean the same thing. Have you given it every possible chance for success? This is what has to happen.' Maharaji remembered a question put to him in the seventies when someone asked, 'If I receive Knowledge what if I become one with the divine and then puff, I disappear?' His use of the word 'puff' was so funny he had to repeat it a couple more times. I giggled as he joked about the fear of being overwhelmed by Knowledge. THE TRAGEDY OF IDEAS But it is a tragedy when we are overcome by our ideas about Knowledge, he reminded us. To have once had everything and then to have lost it. When it seemed he was about to leave he announced that he wanted to give people a chance to speak to him in the hall. But no songs, poems or questions. Just a chance to say hello. Before we began the open forum, he talked about his hopes for the future. I sensed it was exciting news, although unable to take in the full scope of his ideas. He talked of doing follow-ups for people who have been to the introductory events ^ some in person and some using the latest technology. He wants to focus his efforts on selected cities around the world, over a four or five year period. The process from an introductory event to a Knowledge session could become a two month process if he is in an area for that time. And the process would become very 'clean' and clear cut. After he left the stage, like others, I could not stop myself clapping. He popped back, a flash of yellow, for a final wave and a smile. I was amazed to find that it had been over two hours since the event began. I was not the only one to think and say that that was the best event I had ever been to. Maharaji was spectacular.' I read this last night and like Peg was momentarily struck by the thought 'what if he's right?' when I saw the 'overwhelmed by Knowledge' bit, but then I thought, hang on a minute; I gave this thing the best part of 20 years and was only overwhelmed at the very beginning and at odd times after that through the years - and the vast majority of premies if they're really truthful with themselves would be hard pressed to claim more than that. Believe me, I know hundreds of them! Actually what really got me was the 'he looked immaculate' bit at the beginning, which made me cringe, deeply. Er, Charlotte, a multi-millionaire shouldn't find it too difficult to 'look immaculate' - all it takes is a new set of clothes and making sure they're ironed. And actually that little phrase really does give away what a nauseating little personality cult it really is. 'The penny began to drop', she said. Um, Charlotte, you've had Knowledge for 30 years - if there's a penny that's supposed to drop, don't you think it should have dropped an awful long time ago, if he really was the teacher he was supposed to be? But personality worshippers have this awful problem of projection, and Charlotte sees divine wisdom where there are mere platitudes that really mean very little at all. The 'emperor's' new clothes - a yellow shirt and a grey jacket. When will the penny really drop? Livia

Subject: What total bollocks. From: Bryn To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 15:16:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish I could be more articulate about my reactions to M's oratry, and this person's report of it...but I can't. It is simply fatuous and repetetive bollocks of the most transparent kind. Jim used to take the time to dismantle and shine the light into the subtext of this stuff, and it was entertaining to read when he did. I'm afraid now I feel more the mood that Seth expresses in his journey entry. This all sucks, too much..tragic What utter shite.Take it away from me. No more! Love Bryn

Subject: Charlotte's Webb is a Cult From: Joe To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 16:23:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: But it is a tragedy when we are overcome by our ideas about Knowledge, he reminded us. To have once had everything and then to have lost it. The essence of a cult, summarized in two sentences. You must never think about or question knowledge (or Maharaji). If you do, you have a tragedy and are lost. Why is it premies are willing to accept this outrageous nonsense? Why are humans so susceptible to this kind of mind control that is the mainstay of cults?

Subject: he's foreshadowing his fate From: janet To: Joe Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 01:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: he just said it, right there: the tragedy. to have had everything and lost it. it should be on his epitaph. if anyone ever blew it bigtime, he is it.

Subject: WHADYA MEAN ? From: gerry To: janet Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 10:55:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Prem hasn't 'blown' anything. He is very successful at what he does and has every imaginable material thing he wants, unlimited access to sex and drugs and rock and roll. This guy's been laughing up his sleeve at the whole lot of us for decades. It's not like he was ever the 'perfect master' or a 'guru' or somebody with ANYTHING to offer other then the drek he has served up his entire life. So enlighten me, what is the 'everything' Rawat had and then 'lost'?

Subject: Re: Brighton Revisited From: Neville To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 05:22:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've just Charlotte Wolff's report on Brighton (I found a link on LG). It's incredible: M was coming out with metaphors re fire and water, still preaching that one must abandon all discernment and trust him unquestioningly. The transparency is incredible, and even more incredible is Wolff's reaction: she responds as if he was saying something new. Same old, same old. Neville

Subject: Of Fire and Water From: Joe To: Neville Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 16:32:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having caught our attention with this Zen-like query, he talked about the combination of fire and water. When water comes in contact with fire something amazing happens. At first the fire is established and it starts to pass on its nature to the water. But when there is enough water, it can overwhelm the fire. The fire cools down and starts to receive the water's characteristics. Well, to call this 'Zen-like' is a little extreme. Water does not 'take on the characteristics' of fire. Fire does not take on the characteristics of water either. Water smothers fire by depriving it of oxygen, pretty much the same way it deprives people of oxygen who drown. People who drown do not "take on the characteristics of water," either, they have been deprived of air. This sounds like some stupid thing Shri Hans or Charanand might have said in India. This is a much more apt (and also correct) interpretation for what Maharaji is really talking about: 'If you smother your ability to think rationally, you might believe my con game that I actually have something of value to give you.'

Subject: Encore un jour... From: AJW To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:32:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that revealing and honest account of the recent cultfest. 'Encore un jour, la meme merde,' as Jean-Michel once said. (Another day, same shit.) I spoke to a premie about his experience at the programme. He told me Rawat said some incredible things that were really inspirational. I asked him 'What exactly?' He thought for a moment, and came up with, 'Everybody does the same thing every day.' 'Blessed are the pure in heart', eat your heart out. The the more space I put between myself and the Captain's cult, the tackier the whole operation looks. Encore un Anth.

Subject: Re: Encore un jour... From: Sir Dave To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 07:33:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ''Same shit, different day'' is the nicely concise, North Kent version.

Subject: Re: Encore un jour... ? From: Jean-Michel To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 06:04:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When did I say this ? Can't remember !! Looks a bit pessimistic, not like me ....

Subject: Re: Encore un jour... ? From: AJW To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 07:00:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It was another Jean-Michel, Jean Michel. Anth, poet with licence.

Subject: It might have been me From: Sir Dave To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 07:35:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because it's a friend of mine's saying and I've mentioned it here.

Subject: Re: Brighton Revisited From: Kelly To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 01:54:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for that great report Peg, I'm so glad you were able to see it all so clearly through the eyes of discrimination. I had hoped to go and see for myself from this new perspective. My last event was Harrogate and I was still blinkered, though they were slipping a bit, and shortly afterwards fell right off. I would love to hear more about what the premies said to him when they got the chance. Was it just all gooey gratitude. I sure wish I'd got that mike in my hands! Did you have to be near the front to get a chance? I hope we'll hear some more reports. Anybody?

Subject: no confrontations From: Peg To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:26:43 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kelly Poetry, singing and questions were not wanted. He made that clear before the microphones were sent out. there was one guy called Bramanand, (anybody know him) who was around at the start in America. He had apparently walked quite early by going to Aspen (think thats right) when Maharaji had wanted him to go somewhere else. He told M that he had had a good life in spite of the negative prediction. I thought he was going to say something confronting( surely he can't have been taken in after 30 years ) but all he said was its good to see you after all this time. I think he bottled out. Everyone else was pure devotion from all around the hall. I think they went to quite a lot of trouble filtering people out. I was a little concerned when they put my 'smart' card through the machine that the red light would come on.. I wonder if I posted here under my real name if it would have. I don't think I would have survived the interrogation without being devious. I would love to hear from anyone else who went too.

Subject: I had planned to do a report but.......... From: Nottm Bunny To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:20:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .....I was laid low by a virus and decided my health was more important. I remember a time when nothing would have stopped me going: Once I flew from hospital straight to an overseas programme seriously compromising my recovery. But that was another age: that was when I thought he was the Lord and Darshan was the main reason for having a human body anyway. My key objectives to go this time were to catch up with old friends and report back. I know someone else who said they are planning to post a report next week, but right now is maxed out with work. Thanks for that Peggy. BTW, Please call - I have mislaid your phone number and will probably be swinging by your way next month if you would like to hook up. Regards, Bunny

Subject: Will do Bunny! [nt] From: Peg To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:29:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: New *Must Read* Journey Entry and more From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 15:16:26 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Seth Albion, who was never a premie, but suffered more than many of us, tells his story. Also, Loaf has updated his journey, and there are new White Pages entries for Brian Schofield, Lynn Forbes, and Jeni White. Also, Jim Vandegriff and Stephen Faulds have new email addresses. John. Seth Albion's Journey www.ex-premie.org/pages/journs/albion.htm

Subject: for Seth From: Susan To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:06:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I joined the cult freely at 13, my stepfather was a very short time premie and I became a premie for 4-5 years. It has affected my life a lot. I think it of course affects all who were premies, but those who were very young may have some unique issues. But you, like a lot of kids I knew, were a total innocent along for the ride. Over the years on this site other kids of premies have posted. I think we should have a 'best of' section for their experiences. Of course it would be more appropriate to be 'worst of'. I am sorry your parents derailed your childhood because they believed a little fat charlatan was the Lord of the Universe. I can't know totally how much that would hurt. I know it would be a very deep sense of betrayal. As a mom, my kids I hope knew when they were little nothing was more important than they were. I am doing a better job with that with my youngest than my older kids. Who had to go through mom getting an education while parenting them and a nasty divorce and a time in which I sometimes put things in front of them. But it was never a Guru I loved more than them or anything I loved more than I loved them. That I think would be so painful. I am glad by the time I was a parent I had seen through the guru.

Subject: Question to parents From: Peg To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:01:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My daughter was in the room when I read this so I showed it to her. we then had a conversation where her boyfriend said he was horrified to realise that he had got involved with someone who was in a cult and he thought she should have warned him. Her reply was that it had always been this way and she didn't really think it was a big deal. My question is How much do our children need to deprogram as well. I would like to hear what has happened with others. Personally I have resolved to talk more about all this to my children in case they are still caught up in anything left over. Thanks for drawing this to our attention John.

Subject: Re: Question to parents From: Vicki To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 12:17:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Peg, I don't understand exactly, did your children receive knowledge? Or do you mean vicariously, as they lived their lives with the programs, videos, belief system, etc? It's been interesting to me when this all happened a year ago this month, my landing on EPO. It put me in a total state of shock, and took me awhile before confessing what I had learned to my husband and children. The results over this past year have been revealing. My daughter will pop up with some gem of wisdom she observed but never felt able to say, as it was not in line with the world of knowledge. Isn't that sad, really, that even they had to stiffle their understandings? I'm amazed at what she saw through at such a young age, and horrifed that I couldn't. The biggest drip for her was the video where one of the girls is horeseback riding with her helmut on in a private ring. She said it just seemed cruel to be showing a priviledged life to premies who never had money and spent it all going to see him or giving it to him. Gee, she must have been all of ten years old when she saw this. My son is more matter of fact, cut to the point kind of kid. At first he said, 'Well they (EPO) could be wrong,' when he saw how much exiting pain I was in. Then, it was more of, and I quote again, 'Whatever, screw 'em.' He was on the verge of asking for knowledge and nearly went to a program on his own to do this. It was embarressing to explain to my daughter's boyfriend that it was all false. He didn't ever buy into it to begin with. For your daughter's boyfriend, it would have been impossible to give fair warning about being in a cult, because none of us knew we were in a cult. A cult is the Moonies, Charles Manson, Scientology, Hare Krishnas, etc etc, but not premies for god's sake! I just tell them honestly what I learn as I go along via the forums and EPO. Sometimes they add an observation, sometimes they could care less. Usually I learn more when it triggers a memory in them that they had a totally different perspective of.

Subject: I meant vicariously From: Peg To: Vicki Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 16:18:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My kids didn't receive knowledge. It was just, reading Sean's journey and hearing him so angry, rather as if he had just exed himself, and then hearing my daughter say she thought it was normal, I got a bit worried. That was a bit of a panic reaction. After talking to her more it seems she had never really bought it (why did he have so much stuff?) The one thing I am pleased with old podge features about is that he told us not to push it on our kids. I used to think I had been given holy beings to look after (a bit like with guide dogs). When the time was right they would go to their true master. (pause while I vomit) One of my daughters is awfully new age and reminds me a lot of myself at her age ( I was in the ashram ). I talk with her a lot about what has happened. She finds me cynical. I am loving being cynical. Peg

Subject: Re: I meant vicariously From: Vicki To: Peg Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:29:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I am loving being cynical.' This gave my day a good start with a giggle! Just yesterday a friend told me of her sister who was married to some new age type guy and they had/have quite a successful following. He died and she's carrying it on. After a look at their web site, I could only shake my head in disbelief and rudely, I admit, laughed. Apologizing, I said that after being with Maharaji for thirty years I'm skeptical of just about everything. It seems my olfactory sense has become enlightened. I can now smell a con! So glad your kids didn't receive knowledge. These are interesting and very relevent points you brought up. I think quite a lot was inflicted upon the children of premies, even if the parents took responsible care of them. It set the tone of our lives. When people asked my kids what religion we were, they just always were evasive and said 'Well, probably Catholic' because a priest smacked my husband during his recently departed father's mass when he passed by him holding our then baby daughter and learning she hadn't been christened. He then blessed her with the sign of the cross. Of course, I'm laughing thinking 'If you only knew that the Lord incarnate is here and blessed her at six weeks with green holi water!'

Subject: Re: Question to parents From: John G To: Peg Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:21:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I have a step-daughter now in her mid-twenties who is involved w/another cult. One can only wonder if her early exposure to a cult made this type of behavior acceptable. I guess it's kinda like the child of an alcoholic, who despite all evidence that alcohol=trouble comes down w/a case of 'the great thirst' themselves.

Subject: 'another cult' clarified From: John G To: John G Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:32:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess in the above post when I said 'another cult', I should have said, ' another cult who knows they're not a cult but every other cult who thinks they're not a cult are really a cult'. My apologies.

Subject: You aren't my husband secretly posting here? From: Susan To: John G Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 12:12:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: eerie. My daughter is a Mormon. What is your stepdaughter?

Subject: Remember Deradune?? From: Ebay Alert To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 14:32:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Found this post on Ebay for 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji?' There is one bid on it by our old poster deradune who went off to begin her own Pro M website, or some such foolishness. Looks like she needs to bone up on her perfect master by reading the old propaganda. Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1550732528 I do have a question. The book is edited by Charles Cameron. Is CC Guru Chardanand?? If so, is there any detail on charles cameron? Could not find much on web search. what are his credentials, other than being a holy man, or a man with his head up someone's holy area? Cheers Who is Guru M cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1550732528

Subject: Soon scanned on EPO ? From: Jean-Michel To: Ebay Alert Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 01:12:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maybe we should have it on EPO after all? Part of it has already been scanned by our old friend 'Salam', the rest I guess I can do it myself. What do you think ? I know this is going bad for online business, and the auction bids might suffer, but we're having a stock crash these days, and maybe having more stuff online could boost internet shares, after all. I don't know, I'm confused ..... help !!

Subject: Please don't - it's too boring!!! From: JHB To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:05:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J-M, Maybe include some interesting selected highlights, but I tried reading it after I bought a copy on Ebay, and it really is a load of horseshit, and not very interesting horseshit at that. In fact, when I first read it, thinking it was brilliant, in truth the only bits that were interesting were the bits written by other people, not Maharaji, and only the personal stories moved me. Now, they are all pathetic. John.

Subject: Who Is/Was GMJ online From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 08:38:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Who is/was GMJ YES, it's extremely boring, but what do you think of all this BS we've all believed ? This is an important part on which we've built our belief system.

Subject: I agree .... From: Jean-Michel To: JHB Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 06:06:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll check if there are some specially interesting excerpts.

Subject: Charles Cameron is a real person From: JHB To: Ebay Alert Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 15:08:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He is not Gurucharnanand. Here is his website for those interested. John. Charles Cameron home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/ChasCBio.html

Subject: Re: Charles Cameron deserves more background From: janet To: JHB Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 17:50:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: His website doesn't mention anything about his many years as the itinerant poet laurete of the mission. Charles was everywhere in the early days. He fancied himself a kind of poor man's Shakespeare then, traveling around the colonies and the isles, generating poetry for the DLM publications and being what he probably regarded as an inspirational speaker at Satsang, especially aas a featured speaker at the festivals, right up there with saint Joan and the other western luminaries you could count on to be at the microphone most of the day before the Big Cheese came out to do his schtick for the masses. The conspicuous absence of his owning his premie years, in his website biography, begs a plethora of questions. Makes me want to know whether he is still a practicing bhakti and conceals it, in order to pull in the worldly folks, or whether he is a leaver who is embarassed about his earlier affiliations, and wishes to brush it under the carpet and act as if it never happened. And I always thought that for one who purported to be as divinely intoxicated as Charles presented himself to be, he looked like nothing so much as a walking ghoul from the living dead. One who was proclaimed to be so in touch with the source of eternal life should have radiated rather more of the fountain of youth and renewal, wouldn't one think???? oh well. charles was a sagittarius too. don't ever expect the direct, short truth of an answer. whatever he tells you is bound to be typically overblown, longwinded and mind bogglingly arcane. It'll leave you scratching your head and dumbfounded, just the way he likes to leave you.

Subject: She must want it bad From: Another Deradune Bid To: Ebay Alert Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 14:52:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She has bid on the same book at this link. Same book. She must want it bad. Hey Deradune. I have a copy I will sell you. Who is Guru? cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=894667026

Subject: Anyone we know? Sells guitars etc. From: CeriseSant is also a bidder To: Another Deradune Bid Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:00:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From Australia. It wouldn't be that infantile troll would it ?

Subject: dOh she wants it bad alright... From: gErRy To: Another Deradune Bid Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 20:56:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why if ain't ole Red Heels herse'f!!! Loved her then and love her now!! AKA RedHeart www.deradune.com/resume.htm

Subject: If you tolerate this... From: Seymour To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 14:06:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Greetings exes all, I have not contributed to these forums for many moons but pop in now and again (I think lurk is the correct term) to see what's being said about my ole guru. Listening to the *.wav file below brought back some spooky memories and I just thought I'd say hello once again. It's funny, but even after dropping out of the cult over a decade ago, it still hurts. All those wasted years, all time spent following the yellow brick road to nowhere when I could have been learning what this life was all about. I'll never make up the 20 odd year gap in my education and have long since stopped trying. I accept being a retard when it comes to being able to cope in this world. Anyhow, all I really wanted to say is how sad it is that people are still chasing the misleading words of someone who has not got any more of a clue about this life than the rest of us. In fact from the stories we hear about neglecting to own up to killing someone, having affairs, turning a blind eye to paedophilia by initiators, treating those who love him with harsh and cruel behaviour, encouraging people to denegrate their families and friends, making people feel guilty for falling in love and being married and all because he is so much more wise and enlightened and knows what you should be doing with your time e.g. 'meditating, serving......' I could go on but I'm starting to feel a bit strange. Maybe that's why I don't come by here much any more. I want to forget - what a fool I was and how creepy the whole thing is. Hence the 'if you tolerate this' post title - a song by the Manic Street Preachers that I just heard on the radio. Some premies still try to deny what happened in the past, and some of what is happening today, saying that the whole thing is just something that helps us all get through this precarious existence, and that we should turn a blind eye to Maharji's foibles. I know that he has not done much that would condemn him as a normal human being, but even on that level I would not want to associate with someone who does things like betray the trust of his wife (if indeed he has been disloyal), run away from a car accident etc.... never mind follow his advice as to how I should become 'enlightened'. Still - glad to see the opposition is still there; at least anyone who is considering becoming a member has can read a different perspective. Keep up the good work. All the best Seymour.

Subject: Wotcha Seymour From: Katie To: Seymour Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 17:29:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Seymour - Really glad to see you posting. I don't post much on the public forums anymore, but did happen to see your post, and am glad you are still out there. And maybe even Hamzen (a true music snob - snicker!) can't fault us for our mutual fondness for some of Elvis Costello's older stuff. Just wanted to say that *I* certainly don't think you are a 'retard when it comes to being able to cope in this world'. Sometimes I think it's really hard for those of us who are going through mid-life crisis at the same time as exiting the cult - one tends to put ALL the mid-life crisis stuff into the same box as exiting. Truly, most of the people I know who are around 45-55 are all going through the same thing - wondering if what they decided to do with their lives was worth it, wondering if they are 'too old' to start another profession or do what they really have always wanted to do, thinking that they've 'wasted' their lives in one way or another (the wrong career, a bad marriage, bad life decisions, etc.) Most of these people were NEVER in a cult of any kind - but they still have the same feelings about their lives. I can't tell you that I haven't been struggling with the same feelings myself. I turned 46 this year, and my husband (Brian of former EPO webmaster fame) turned 50, and we've both been going through it. Still, a bunch of my relatives lived to be 90, so I figure I've still got a long time to live (well, if I quit smoking, that is!), and it's NOT too late to start anything right now. And I might be 'too old' for some things, but not for a lot of other things. Plus most of the people in the Western world are the same age we are - a fact that cheers me up when I feel bad sometimes. On my good days, I also believe that nothing is ever wasted. Twenty years spent following Maharaji (or 20 years in a bad marriage, or 20 years in a job you hated) may seem like a huge waste, but we can't know who we would have been without that experience. I think it takes a great deal of strength to follow someone like Maharaji for 20 years and then leave - I very much respect all the ex-premies here who have done that. At a certain point, I think it's easier to stay in than get out - and it takes a lot of courage and determination to realize that you were following a mirage - and that you are going to live life without that mirage. I know you've got a 'hard row to hoe' (American slang) in the Real World, and somtimes that isn't easy or comfortable. As you said, it hurts - although I think you can honor the fact that you are being true to yourself. Still I wish you'd give yourself credit for being the courageous and kind person that you are - and look forward, not back. (This is advice I have to give MYSELF all the time, too, by the way!) Lots of love, Seymour - Katie

Subject: Re: Wotcha Seymour From: Seymour To: Katie Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 03:48:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Katie, Great to see that you too are still around. I have tried to keep in touch with the forum all these years but, having said most of what I could about leaving M & K I drifted into just reading a few posts every month or so. I noticed your absence, and that you had your differences with Jim ( who I notice is not around at the moment ) and quite understand why you are not posting so much on this forum, although I think it's a shame as your voice added much to the spirit of caring that is part of the ethos around here. But you served your time and did more than most to help many an exiting premie come to terms with life on the outside. It's all right to say 'embrace rational thinking' but there is still need for some emotional comfort and communication which was often part of your posts. You are probably right about the mid-life crisis thing. I think I've been going through it for at least a decade. Thanks for the kind and encouraging words. It's true that we can't know what would have happened if we had not become premies ( could have worse or better - but hardly less unreal ) and also true when you say 'At a certain point, I think it's easier to stay in than get out - and it takes a lot of courage and determination to realize that you were following a mirage - and that you are going to live life without that mirage' As we talked about many times before, the feeling of being in the exclusive group of people led by the Lord of the Universe, and being certain that you have access to the map that can guide you though this complicated and precarious life is hard to walk away from, especially when going back to the 'I know nothing' state of mind. We also discussed the side effects of believing in the mirage and agreed that you can never go back once you have seen it for what it is - yet seeing desert ahead of you is much less interesting than looking at the mirage. Your comparisson with marriages and jobs is very apt. With a job you try and work your way up to a position where you have some control and greater job satisfaction, not to mention the easier life as a result of more money - but if your company starts freezing the pay, giving you the worst jobs to do and bringing in contractor/consultants over your head rather than promoting you - it's a dissapointment but you have to get out ( even if there is not other job to go to ). As for marriage I can only imagine how soul destroying it must be after 20+ years to end a relationship. Yet that is even more like breaking your ties with M. I, and many premies, loved him dearly and would have (and in many cases did) sacrificed our own needs and desires for him. Like a lover, just knowing he was around and that he cared about our well being, was enough to see you through bad times. Having faith in his integrity and dedication to making each one of us individually 'realised' was a great comfort. All that plus he had the wisdom and power to make it all happen. Ahh well...we also believed in Father Christmas ( although I can't quite remember going through the same upset when I found he was not real ). I think it's also to do with the personal sense of betrayal that lingers on and not just the disappearance of our 'spiritual path' once we realised that he was not all he was cracked up to be. Anyhow best wishes to you and Brian. Seymour.

Subject: C'mon seymour From: hamzen To: Seymour Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:07:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: C'mon man, yeah we wasted years, if not decades. But in the end there's still just this moment, appreciation and all that yeah, life is for living, blah de blah de blah. And as for giving up, that's bollox. Yeah I understand the disappointment bigtime. I had an amazing journey with meditation, really fucking deep, and really believed it could make a difference on this planet and was totally devastated when I realized he was completely useless and didn't know how to run anything, in fact destroyed everything he set up, well apart from lining his own pocket which he's a perfect master of. But at some point you've got to dust yourself down. Without any passion you might as well give up the ghost, and anybody who does that is just giving paypal even more satisfaction. The best way of paying him back, apart from putting the boot in and taking the piss is to get what you can out of what's left of your life. Even if you are in your fifties you can get an education, or get a life. Ten years ago I walked, I also walked from being a committed member of the green movement cause I realized they were pissing in the wind and didn't know how to communicate, and away from a career in soft systems when I realized they were just supporting the military and the multi-national drugs firms. I also walked from my premie marriage at the same time and realized I didn't have a fuckin clue where the majority of the population were coming from and what their motivation was, and I certainly didn't have a clue how to communicate with anyone not on a spiritual path in any meaningful way. I could not have been more full of despair, but something in me refused to give up, some passion in life, for life, refused to go away. And slowly some other stuff came through. I met some people into house music who were spot on, great attitude, well into vibes shit, knew how to communicate, not interested in spiritual bollox but were right there in that vibe and another journey began. Now ten years later most of my mates are 25-35, great friendships, no, quality friendships, regularly get some of the best 'satsang' of my life, involved with putting on quality nights, we recently put on a sound system for a local community womens institute type affair which was wicked, even the mums were bopping.. I worked for social services for most of that decade fighting the system and doing some great stuff, and again met some of the best human beings I've ever met, again mostly with a house music background but not solely. But you've got to go through the centre of your dark stuff man, get some counselling, whatever, get a perspective, and come back to the moment. There are some great people out there, loads of wicked stuff to get involved in, but if you're coming from a downer perspective then that's all your see. and meet. Now if this sounds patronising and you can't shake off that downer stuff then you need to get support, depression is not funny and needs to be treated, and there's no shame in that, and in the process you'll sort out your naivete re communication. Shit we were fuckin naive and we had our heads fucked over bigtime, you deserve a life, please don't let him win. Ohh and thanks for the manics quote, god twice in a week post hippy music quotes, take the manics attitude on board and fight back., just ignore what happened to nicky manic Some parts of hippy were cool, but the naivete and self indulgence sucks, become a post-modernist hippy and reclaim your heritage, you can do it mate. If a mate of mine who's 65 and had mental health problems all his life, and were talkin serious, can start makin that journey you sure as hell can, you wanna hear his passion for music now and what he's learning from this generation, very inspirational.

Subject: wow hamzen - great post From: not out yet To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 07:10:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hiya Hamzen, Thanks for taking the time to write such an uplifting reply. You guessed that I am slightly less than blissful at the moment and your 'survivor' story is a great boost. I do get a lot from music and art - in fact these and science/philosophy gradually replaced my reliance on the teachings of M. Unfortunately they don't help pay the rent and support a family. I think a sudden cash input of around 50k would sort out my pessimism. It's the alternative of working in a stressful job to earn less than you need to pay the bills that gets me down more than anything - maybe I should become a Guru, they seem to have a good life :) Anyhow I've taken your words to heart and will try and look on the bright side. Best wishes Seymour.

Subject: Agreed. The best revenge is a good life [nt] From: Neville To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:30:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Seymour? From: Forum ID check To: Seymour Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 20:38:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Funny. That's not who you were last time.

Subject: Re: Seymour? From: Who? To: Forum ID check Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:37:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Forum ID check, What does this mean? You have me paranoid now - especially as I don't know who your are or what your reply has to do with what I said in my post. I am not sure who I am or who I used to be, but it's spooky that the cyber-web monitor seems to know more about me than I do. It could be one of the other exes that live here -although a year? or so ago I did use another name. Anyhow it sounds like using a pseudonym is not the done thing these days - sorry, I'll go back to being an ocassional lurker. S.

Subject: It was a troll, Seymour From: gerry To: Who? Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 08:25:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Forum ID Check' is just David Roupell who lives near Byron Bay in Australia. He is an immature, longtime cult member who takes pleasure in sadistically antagonizing ex-premies who come here to talk with other ex-premies. He knows nothing about you and has no access to this website administration functions. I've blocked his IP for all the good that will do. I guess I'll have to make some sort of official complaint, as I know his street address and his telephone number. Take no mind of him, he's as useless here as he is the the 'real' world. He thinks he's hot shit, but the truth is he is quietly married to an older lady and lives off her family money. He makes like he is a cult insider, but the truth about him is that Rawat doesn't know him from Adam and he's a very minor blip on the cult radar. Don't be paranoid about him, he's a impotent cult geek, that's all...

Subject: I got your info off the net, numbnuts. [nt] From: gerry To: Doc - NON ADMIN Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:40:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Let me guess, Roupell... From: gerry To: doccy Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 20:41:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What Dave? More phone calls? Sic Bjorn on me? What? I can't wait. From www. whitepages.com.au: Weather Sydney - Early frost inland. Sunny day. Max 19 Time NSW Time 11:32 am 27 July 2002 Results Listing 1 - 1 of 1 You have searched for: roupell New South Wales Other Areas Residential Name & Location Contact More Info Map Roupell D 8 Brian Crt Ocean Shores 2483 (02) 6680 4331 So that's the public information. And yes, I do have some inside information on you, but it came from right here in the states. The stuff about your old lady and the fact that goober doesn't know who the fuck you are and could care less (what else is new, huh?) and also that you are basically a leech on society and your wife (who I heard is a decent person in a difficult situation) isn't exactly breaking news, dude. This is fair play, Roupell. You've been beating on my wife and my situation for years now, so FUCK YOU if you don't like it back in your face.

Subject: Crock-o-Shit-Doc... From: Cynthia To: Absolutely shocked to my coreDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 07:46:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Why don't you go over to LG and play over there with the witch? Oh, I forgot, you're mentally impaired by guru foot worship. Sorry, DumbDoc, I forgot, you're still in a cult! HoHoHo:D

Subject: hilarious gerry From: hamzen To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 09:38:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is that true about him, if so absolutely hilarious, and loads of material for taking the piss bigtime and definitely make an official complaint

Subject: Hey dude From: Jethro To: Oh it's nursery time! Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 08:57:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Yea it's all true Hamy Just like all the truth here all about Maharaji, that's all true as well you know' Really happy that you are finally waking up.It's great to see someone finding their true home. You'rejust such an example to u s all. Thanks again Jethro PS eeeeer what was the title of that book? PPS you promised info on the FU video

Subject: You did say t ghis ROUPELL? From: Jethro To: Jethro Date Posted: Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 09:02:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Regarding the video - yes it was tremendous fun, I even stuck my middle finger up at the camera hoping Michael would remember me

Subject: Re: If you tolerate this... From: NikW To: Seymour Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 15:34:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Seymour, I'm a recent poster here so we won't have shared a thread before. I think I understand your unhappiness with dealing with this STUFF and that horrible sense of being unworldly I know very well. I don't want in any way to devalue what you've expressed so this is just a suggestion - maybe that 20 year gap is not quite as big as it sometimes seems, after all there are many many people who've not been carrying the burden of a Guru - and who I suspect have far less to offer the world than you do. The devaluing of self is all part of the cult thinking and it has certainly taken me years to even acknowledge it. Anyway your post will have made Hamzen happy; that's now two of us who've quoted bands that are post 1975, in the last week; I refered to The Clash which apparently was quite revolutionary on this site ?? Hope you're doing OK Seymour. Cheers, Nik

Subject: Re: If you tolerate this... From: Seymour To: NikW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 03:10:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello Nik, Thanks for the encouraging reply - glad to hear that someone else shares that 'unworldly' feeling ( although it's a bit of a curse really ) . In fact it was that same feeling that got me into the cult in the first place. When I mentioned the 20 year gap, I didn't just mean academic or vocational education, even though they did suffer also, I meant time spent going down a cul-de-sac when I was trying to reach a destination. I took knowledge to get an understanding of life and my place in the universe, gain a little peace of mind and become a better person. It took a long time to admit that these goals were not being achieved and it was not easy to start making my way back the way I had come so that I could start trying to find the right direction. And this path through life is a bit like a career - if your experience and qualifications are out of sync with your age, it is not easy. I still regret all that time as a premie when my mind was closed to new ideas, maybe there were some good ones that I missed. Cheers Seymour p.s. Yes I do like some of the Manic Street Preachers stuff - songs from the heart.

Subject: Re: If you tolerate this...one more time From: NikW To: Seymour Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 14:25:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Seymour, Hope the Troll didn't put you off. I'm sure your posts will always be welcome - including expressions of the gulf between income and expenditure. I'm sure both you and I are suited to a life of luxury as may come to those who parasitize on others; I don't know about me, but you sound too decent a bloke to have ever gone down that route. Best wishes, Nik

Subject: The Maharishi about to beat Prempal From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 00:31:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Maharishi going to beat Prem Rawat ? Maharishi criticizes Bush, the Pope and modern education. Global Country of World Peace Station 24, 6063 NP Meru, The Netherlands Europe Office: Tel: +31-475-539-569 • U.S. Office: Tel: +1-641-470-1344 Email: WorldPeace@Maharishi.Net – PRESS CONFERENCE REPORT – http://www.mou.org/maharishi_channel/news/summary/2002_07_17.html Maharishi criticizes Bush, the Pope and modern education Says American corporate scandals reveal deep flaws of capitalism Showcases Vedic knowledge as means to stop conflict, promote peace JULY 18) With the safety and security of the world imperiled by the destructive policies of war-mongering nations, His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi powerfully repeated his pledge made last week to personally create world peace, saying, 'We can't be a silent witness to the sinking ship. We have the power to save the ship of life from sinking into disaster.' Maharishi's announcement came during a candid and wide-ranging global news conference on July 17 that was broadcast live from Meru, Holland, via satellite, Internet webcast, and teleconference. While acknowledging that his nature is not to criticize, Maharishi nonetheless offered frank assessments of U.S. President George Bush, the Pope, and modern educational systems that produce criminal minds. Maharishi's opening remarks were brief. He pointed out the inherent flaws of 'humanly conceived constitutions with their human weaknesses and failings' which lead to problem-ridden administrations, and contrasted them with the 'God-made constitution' which governs the ever-expanding universe with perfect order and without a problem. A group in every country 'From the Vedic Tradition of India we have the knowledge and technologies to enliven the deepest level of Nature's functioning—the Unified Field of Natural Law, the Will of God—to raise the administration of every nation to the level of the supreme efficiency and effectiveness of the God-made constitution,' Maharishi said. The formula for governments is simple. 'Every country must have a large group of Vedic experts in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program, including Yogic Flying,' Maharishi said. 'Research shows that through their daily performance these experts will eliminate acute societal stress—the underlying cause of conflict—and create coherence in world consciousness.' Emphasizing the global nature of his peace effort, Maharishi said that if even one country remained stressed and without a coherence-creating group, then world peace would be shaken—'like a small thorn throws off the balance of the entire body.' Maharishi also announced the availability of World Peace Bonds to fund the groups. 'These bonds may be of particular interest to individuals, corporations, and pension funds who would buy the bonds, earn interest on their investment and create peace.' (See www.globalcountry.org.) 'Bush is an ignorant man' From the first question, Maharishi made apparent his dissatisfaction with President Bush and his policies of destruction. 'I see him as an ignorant man, who knows nothing of science or reason or religion,' Maharishi said. 'That great country is being led to destroy the world by very wrong sentiments.' Maharishi said that Bush and his advisors should look to the teachings of their religions to see the consequences of their policies of destruction—and then he offered his own counsel. 'Every religion has heaven and hell. Every religion says that killing is a sin. Sinners go to hell; only the virtuous go to heaven. The destroyers of the world can create ashes in human society, but they cannot escape the door of hell. Everyone has to pass away, but until he does, he's advised to do right things—help thy neighbor and relieve the suffering of others. It's a grave misunderstanding that the present destroyers think they are going to heaven.' 'I have forgotten about Israel' To a question about the Middle East and whether Maharishi planned any humanitarian gestures to create a group in Israel, Maharishi was equally direct: 'Israel is a child of America. I have forgotten about Israel because when people are murderers, who can bother about them? All that is happening in Israel is the doing of America. Wherever there is destruction, it's the doing of America. For the sake of politeness, one may not say that, but those are my thoughts.' America's corporate scandals Maharishi commented on the rash of scandals and bankruptcies in corporate America, and targeted capitalism, which, he said, makes personal gain the sole motivator in life. 'There is so much fraud in the way money is earned in a capitalist country—it's quite ugly. And they are all involved in it—the president, the vice president—they are all involved. It's a big muddle.' But when asked what would happen to business dealings when a large group of coherence-creating Vedic experts is established in America, Maharishi offered an entirely different picture. 'Nothing wrong will sprout. Deceiving others will be absent. Harming others will be absent. Money mongering makes a man blind—it's such great ignorance. One can be in the darkness and break one's head or knees, but all that will come to an end with the onset of light. We will bring the light.' The Pope Maharishi was asked whether he would join forces with those who advocate prayer to create peace. 'There is nothing in the world to compare with Transcendental Meditation,' he said, adding 'We have heard the champions of prayer and the apologies of the Pope. They are praying to God to be excused for the misery and destruction and impurity that their organization has created throughout the ages. They are not peace-promoters. This is not the kind of prayer that we teach.' Total brain functioning Maharishi returned to the issue of violence, and cited inadequacies in modern education worldwide as the cause of crime and terrorism sweeping the globe. 'Education has been very damaging to life. You educate your children in a haphazard way and don't train them to use their full brain, and then when they get older and they shoot someone on the streets, you say, ‘What is happening?' But it's your own doing. How you educate the students is how they will behave in society. The purpose of student life is to enliven the field of cosmic intelligence which is Total Natural Law, total brain functioning. The use of total brain functioning through Transcendental Meditation is real; it is not gossip, or a children's story to be cast aside.' Waking up the leaders Maharishi reflected on his choice of words during the news conference: 'I know I am using strong words, but I have spoken enough soft words. When a man is asleep and you want to wake him up, you gently move him. If he still doesn't wake, you have to shake him harder. After speaking gently for so many years, now I have to shake the leaders and warn them: ‘You are opening the gate to hell for yourselves—and for all your supporters.'' Convincing individuals and nations Maharishi revealed what lies ahead in his effort to create permanent peace: 'I started the Transcendental Meditation movement all by myself; there was no second or third person. I had to convince individuals in one country after another, year after year. Now I have to do the same convincing, this time with nations. I have created the Global Country of World Peace, and many countries are coming to join the Global Country, but the process is slow. I hope the press will take this message of world peace far and wide, and very soon we will have groups in every country.' Peace not based on the whims of the press And while looking to the press to help deliver his message, Maharishi questioned their autonomy, saying they are paid to promote their governments. He also said that he is not dependent on their assistance. 'My success does not depend on the press, even though I want the press to publicize good things. But world peace is not going to depend on the whims of the press. It'll be on the basis of the effectiveness of coherence in world consciousness. ' Declaring that coherence in society is not an intellectual concept, but something real, Maharishi said, 'Coherence produces a positive effect on the environment. Either you walk into a dark room or a lighted room. Like that is the effect of coherence.' Fulfillment of religious prayers is near Maharishi concluded by answering a reporter who asked whether the coherence-creating groups would bring fulfillment to religious prophecies. 'The prayers of all religious groups will be fulfilled as world consciousness becomes purer and purer. This is great news for them—the time is coming for the fulfillment of their desires, hopes, and prayers. The Will of God will be on earth as it is in heaven. It doesn't matter what the world has been in the past. We are bringing the light, and darkness will simply disappear. Fulfillment can be seen at a distance, but it has come into vision. Now it will come nearer and nearer,' Maharishi said. Maharishi's next global news conference Wednesday, July 24, 2002 17:00 hours (CEST) • 11:00 a.m. (U.S.–EDT) Connect via Internet www.globalcountry.org Connect via telephone in USA Dial +1-512-305-4600 and then enter the code 55689, followed by the # key

Subject: Why so many myths? From: Will To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 08:34:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our current religious movements don't seem to have evolved much from the ancient Greek, Roman, Nordic, Judaic and Hindu mythologies. It surprises me that anybody takes these things literally. I recently was discussing a painting with my niece who is just out of high school. It was Bougereau's (sp?) 'Cupid and Psyche.' My niece said how stupid the ancients were for believing in all that mythology. I told her that surely they must have believed in Venus as the God of Love, for example, only as a metaphor, and all the gods represented the external and internal forces that shape our lives. Before I was old enough to go to school, I made up my very own mythology. I created a veritable Olympus about a kingdom above the clouds populated with the usual characters. These stories seem to come standard in our minds, our collective unconsciousness, if you will. The problem is not these beautiful allegorical stories that describe the universe, but the pitiful beliefs systems that people accept. The Maharishi's insistence that everyone practice his particulr form of meditation in order to achieve the ideals of peace and good-will is absolutely ridiculous. And to choose the Pope with his version of the proper sinless lifestyle is equally absurd. And I do mean absurd. All religious belief systems, when you look at them, are absolutely bonkers. It's not the main idea that is off the mark, it's the silly 'particulars' that they all have. Look at Prem Rawat's particulars. I've been reading the reports of his current European tour. He is over there letting people know that if they want to find the joy hidden in the breath then they can ask him, and he will show them. What he is offering is the supreme Knowledge that brings about the peace that all people are thirsting for. And he cautions that once you have this 'everything' and then lose it, it is a 'great tragedy.' I understand that last remark to refer to those people who have rejected his brand of peace, his particular way of peace. What astounding impudence! It is a great mystery to me why his audiences don't throw tomatoes at him. I suppose people hear such things and say to themselves, like I did: well, I'll give it a chance, see what happens. Most people see Prem Rawat for the silly false prophet that he is, right away. But some of us idiots have to learn the hard way, by first hand experience. I have something to say to Prem Rawat. I beg to differ with you about that 'great tragedy' remark. The joy and peace that all people thirst for is not contained within the boundaries of your mythology. And when your disillusioned students make their escape from your silly personality cult, they do not live out tragic lives. Do you really believe that? What an insult! You really are a legend in your own mind! But there was one thing about this latest tour that I congratulate Prem Rawat on. During his open forums, when his students get to praise him, he insists that no one share any poetry. I guess he has been reading ELK. Smart move.

Subject: re paypals glastonbury appearance From: hamzen To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 13:37:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One of my best mates saw this on brit tv the other week and was completely bemused that anyone as bright, sharp as me could even have got warm to what he saw as a complete fraud. Even for gurus he thought he was very obviously fake. This comment echoes another of my mates who I took to see a video ten years ago, his comment was that 'if he was a used car salesman you'd run a mile, he was SO obviously dodgy'. Now although neither of them are standard guru spiritual fodder what was interesting was that from their impression of me they were expecting a higher class of guru at least, someone with something, but no, dead dodgy was the message. Ohh dear, if the guru was that dodgy, then what does that say about us then. Thank god for the improvement in streetwise culture. Another of my mates, they are all under 35, is into a bit of reiki, so a bit more up for spirit type stuff. She and another good mate were both into some hindu medittation they thoroughly enjoyed and had been going for weeks, when they were obviously viewed as being possible foddert, and some of the cult thinking began to leak, ala paypals aspirant doctoring process. Even though they loved their meditation they literally left in the middle of the session at the first whiff of. Now that's progress. I reckon we all owe the punks and johnny rotten in particular a whole lot for exposing the puerile side of hippy culture.

Subject: I was there! From: Kelly To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 03:19:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was down by the stage when he came on. I was in a somewhat altered state, the sort that gives you heightened perceptions! and I'm sorry to say that he really impressed me! it is hard to believe now, especially watching that old film, but I was especially taken with his 'clarity'. I think now, that the power and clarity I heard in his voice stemmed from his absolute certainty and confidence in himself. It's odd that it was his voice that first impressed me, because it was his voice that gave me real problems during my time as a premie. That high pitched shriek was always grating, and why did he have to shout? I'd be interested to know if others had the same problem. I certainly remember taking someone to an event who thought he sounded exactly like Hitler!

Subject: I was there on acid too From: hamzen To: Kelly Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 07:55:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Kelly, When he came on I was at the height of the trip which was tricky, cause each time I focused on a word trying to remember what it meant (microdot I think) he'd said about 5 more! At the end all I remembered were two words, war and peace, hmm! Re the shrieking, I had a really bad time with that one. Got worse over the years cause I noticed that the deeper and more focused my meditations got, the more resonant the experience, the more resonant and deep my voice got, and noticed that was true of other people, meditators or not. One of the early drips really, cause I also noticed that my voice pitch went up whenever I was agitated and uncentred. Only so many excuses you can put down to lila over the years.

Subject: Talking like his mother From: Jean-Michel To: Kelly Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 06:14:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you remember his mother's voice ? I couldn't listen to her. She was always like crying and shouting during her addresses. I guess he was talking like her.

Subject: Re: Talking like his mother From: Kelly To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 10:10:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi JM, You're right, his mother's voice was awful too. I wonder what his father's was like. Is there any tape of his voice? I don't recall ever hearing it. I could never listen to audio tapes of PR, because I found myself so put off by his voice. When I stayed in the ashram in Delhi they used to show videos every evening, first Hindi then English. I used to hear his voice from my room, and in Hindi it is even more shrill and strident, and think how can he be my perfect master and sound so horrible? The effect was softened somewhat by seeing his face which was often beaming blissfully (or was that smugly?)as he ranted on. When I watched videos at home I used to switch them off quickly if anyone came in, because I didn't want them to be put off. I put one on the other day, and shuddered again on hearing his voice. I was looking for a quote for Livia. Does anyone remember what he said in Brighton circa 1995 along the lines of... 'Let everyone else worry about global warming, let them worry about the starving millions. Our business is just to enjoy our lives' This was greeted, to my disgust, by loud cheers! The man is morally moribund. And he's got a squeaky voice!

Subject: Engage the brain doc, it can be useful From: hamzen To: PunckDoc Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 01:48:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: By that definition, and I assume you're referring to sid vicious, then if I pick out a premie suicide that means all premie are suicidal, ahh yes I get the hang of this new logic now.

Subject: Re: Off Target Doc From: NikW To: hamzen Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 06:03:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doc, Like Sid you've missed the point.

Subject: Re: On Target Nik From: NikW To: FloydDoc Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 06:28:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Doc Wish You Were Here.

Subject: this above all things..... From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 13:09:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: to thine own self be true-The Bard. I was reflecting today how lovely it was to see old premie friends in Brighton yesterday and how I could tell some that I was no longer a premie and others I couldn't. An interesting comparison formed and on examination revealed the fact that the ones I could tell were the open ones who love me anyway (not difficult-he said in all humility). This life journey seems to stop at many stations on the Way and for me Maharaji was one of them, however, some have stayed in the station waving at Life going by. Who knows where the journey will end but I do hope that they will all eventually be with me. (Naive, maybe but heartfelt nonetheless)The fact is this - for all my friendships within the realm of premiedom nothing can obstruct the fact that we must be true to our Selves and not anyone else.

Subject: I wish I'd been there From: Kelly To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 03:03:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I actually registered for the event, I would have loved to go along to meet old friends, but also to take full advantage of the opportunity to, shall I say, 'Express' myself. I see from reading the Brighton report over on ELK that he allowed no songs poems or questions!! But that wasn't what I had in mind anyway! But anyway, my husband was not well enough for me to leave him, so I missed the 'opportunity'. Maybe next time. I do hope someone is going to post a full report. Did you go into the event itself?

Subject: I wish I'd been there too From: Loaf To: Kelly Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 10:35:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend of mine went and said 'actually it was very nice, very inspiring' I asked @how is Mahraji' and she said 'He's lovely'.. it sort of made me homesick, cos I remember 100s of events with a lot of fondness... the last one I attended was Harrogate 2000 and I found it absolutely fascinating. What always put me off was the UTTER DEATH of the Premies... He was 'on top of things', bright, charming and Expertly and subtly manipulative.. but the premies were like the walking dead. It made me realise how much I had 'moved on' and that I couldnt fit into the box of self-censorship anymore. It is the premie society habit of self-conformity which is so restrictive and damaging.. the editing of ones own instinctive resonses to life to the point where as a Premie I COULDNT admit EVEN TO MYSELF that I was unhappy, depressed, angry...much less to anybody else ! the implicit guilt of 'knowing better' actually derailed me... it has taken a while, during which I needed to get in touch with my feelings without having a Guru breathing down my neck - before I have been able to steer my boat again, without interference, superiority, smugness or implied criticism being disguised as 'support'. Cheers to Liberty ! Freedom ! Free thinking !

Subject: How was the event ? From: Loaf To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 13:33:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did you attend ? was it happy and gentle and kind ? The Loaf (Ian Warburton) says hello to the Falcon

Subject: To Kelly and Loaf From: The Falcon To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 04:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I lasted 5 minutes before extreme distaste at how expertly he can 'work' a crowd overwhelmed me-not pleasant! The Pefect Manipulator??

Subject: 5 minutes! Well done. nt From: Kelly To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 10:12:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Dr. Beatrice Bruteau (sort of o.t) From: The Falcon To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 03:27:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: has anyone read any of her books? I was deeply intrigued by an interview with her that I read yesterday.

Subject: Re: Dr. Beatrice Bruteau (sort of o.t) From: Jean-Michel To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 06:39:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is she a french woman ? I remember a french premie whose name was very close ...

Subject: Sorry, can't be her .... From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 06:54:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: She was much much younger .....

Subject: Mini Latvian report From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:25:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bolly, Thorin and me met up for a mini Latvian the other day, which was brilliant. We had a great lunch and talked and talked for hours. Thorin is just as you'd all imagine - tall, dashing, handsome, witty, erudite... Actually it was great. (And Thorin really is handsome - age has not withered him!) The instant camaraderie from having read each other so often on the forum - I'd thoroughly recommend it to anyone contemplating meeting up with forum regulars. Lots of food for thought, too - subjects raised which haven't necessarily been discussed in great detail here, and subjects too deep to be properly covered even in the several hours we spent in each others' company. Actually one thing we all felt was how refreshing it was to be able to discuss all this openly, in real time, face to face. It made us realise just how little of one's true feelings were ever really discussed (openly) during the years of cult involvement. That little phrase 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' forces premies into an invidious postion where they feel that to express any 'doubt' (I'd now prefer to call it 'true discernment') to one another is not only the betrayal of a commandment but holds the added danger of 'corrupting' your friend. So you keep quiet and don't express things until you're not even sure if you feel them or not - a sort of dissembling, and psychologically very unhealthy. It's one of the factors that tends to keep cults going. So to be able to say all the things we said was refreshing in the extreme, and felt wonderfully healthy, open and free. To AV and Anthony and anybody else who wants to join us next time - in a few months maybe? Please try and make it; it's definitely worth it! Love to all, Livia

Subject: I wish I'd been there From: Kelly To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:58:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Be sure and let me know when you next meet. It is so refreshing and exciting to be able to talk freely about m@k to people who really understand what you're talking about. And so much easier to express yourself face to face than on this forum. Though you are doing very well Livia. I liked what you said about the added danger of 'corrupting' your friend. I remember that so well and I still have a problem with some premie friends, even though they know I'm an ex, I still hold back from expressing myself fully and telling them what I know for fear of tearing their security blanket! I hope to meet up with you soon.

Subject: I love the Latvian reference! From: JHB To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 16:54:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course, me and Bryn had the first real Latvian event here in Latvia in June, but it's interesting to me that we really do move on in our 'ex-premie cult'. It's over three years ago that I met with Jethro in London, and then later we met with Anth and Charlie. Soon after Anth, Charlie, Lee, Hamzen and I met at the Latvian club, followed by the first international event in London attended by Anth, cq, Charlie, Jean-Michel, Marianne, and myself. Then there was the biggest ex-premie get-together in March last year in London which numbered over 20. What's healthy is that this lunch with Thorin, Bolly and Livia doesn't involve any of the ex-premies in the earlier meetings. I believe ex-premies should 'move on', and the evidence is that we do. Having a transit lounge (forum) of about 50-100 is helpful for those exiting, but I doubt it should ever be any larger. It seems that the real life meetings reflect this. And of course all are welcome to experience a real Latvian night here in Latvia:) John.

Subject: Ah Latvia, my Latvia! From: Bryn To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:24:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Latvia is a great place, especially for tree and beer lovers. If any 'premies' read this as they lurk, my message is. GET OUT NOW!!! Love and Happy Times JHB, Bryn

Subject: I object From: hamzen To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 07:08:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How can it be a true latvian nite without everyone gettin completely trolleyed and makin a total ass of themselves, well at least ish Are you gonna be there for a while jhb? Don't think I'm gonna make it this year, but really fancy a visait, if for no other reason than the latvian beer, yes yes, excellent stuff, almost as good as the best cider :)

Subject: I agree Hamzen. From: AJW To: hamzen Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:43:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know what to think with all these so called Latvian events happening everywhere. If you look up the definition of 'Latvian night' in the Ex-premie, Trashcan Manual, you'll see, as Hamzen rightly points out, that it doesn't qualify as an official Latvian night unless someone throws up on the pool table, starts a fight, or, as a certain Californian lawyer did in a posh restaurant in Paris, pass out on the dessert plate. I think they're trying to take over our mini-cult Hamzen, and oust us as the alternative Holy Family. Anth the squashed creme brullee.

Subject: to one 'til you said that, Anth. [nt] From: Neville. I was thinking of going To: AJW Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 05:27:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Ham, I live here! From: JHB To: hamzen Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 07:24:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I love it here and have no intention of living anywhere else, so any time you fancy a visit, just let me know and I'll be happy to be your beer guide! John.

Subject: Re: I love the Latvian reference! From: Neville To: JHB Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 03:15:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Twenty people together! See: we're a cult. What further proof is needed. Why do I bother? Irony is probably wasted on premies. Neville

Subject: Re: I love the Latvian reference! From: Bolly To: Neville Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 07:23:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Neville, It is a cult getting together away from true believers. Speaking openly about things that were they ever raised amongst the commited would draw forth one of those looks, the sort that make you wonder if you put your head on sideways that morning. Lots of food for thought, and Livia wasn't openly drooling over Thorin, well not while I was looking anyway. It is a breath of fresh air to speak about it all in the way we'd speak about anything else which had been part of our lives for thirty years. Nice to meet you Thorin and look forward to future meetings hopefully with a few others as well. Can't join in a piss up, my system can't handle it. Love Bolly

Subject: Trying to evaluate PPs attendance From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 01:51:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm having an email conversation with someone who'd like to have some details. Here's what I've answered him/her. Any comments ? +++++++++ Hello !! >I was wondering about something. Do you have any idea just how many premies are still attached to Prem Pal Singh? In Western countries: I'd say somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 persons are still more or less interested by PPS in Europe, same figures for the US (very likely only half of it), and a few hundreds, maybe a bit more, here and there in other areas. These figures include 70-80% of people who would only show up when PPS comes in their city. I guess you should consider that only 20% of the global figures are firm believers and regularly come to events (watch videos, financially participate etc). In India and Nepal: The programs' attendance has also shrinked during the last decades. There were definitely over 100,000 attendees in the 70s for big events, and maybe only half of it or less these days in India. Nepal: maybe 10,000-20,000 From what I understand of the mentality in India (and Nepal), most of these people go from one guru to the next guru every year, and it's very likely that he has only a few thousands that he managed to keep in the fold there. The area of Kanpur seems to be one of the most 'active' these days, for some reason I don't know. > And do you have any idea how many ex-premies there are? We've figured out that about 100,000 persons have been initiatiated in Europe in the past 30 years, and also 100,000 in the US during the same period of time. Maybe he's initiated a few 100,000 in India and Nepal during the same period of time, usually between 10,000 and 20,000 every year in the past 10-15 years. > How many would you say are in your larger circle? You make your calculations. It's difficult to know where people are at. I've witnessed myself that many people who come to attend programs mainly come for social reasons, nostalgia, feel reassurate when they can't really make a break from their belief, shake hands etc Same thing for ex-premies: most people leave for good and don't want to be associated anymore with premies or ex-premies. There is not much left of the glorious past !! Except for the TV channels he managed to set, his broadcasting company, his marble 'residences', hundreds of luxury cars, his yacht, his private jet and immense wealth ! Cheers Jean-Michel

Subject: Re: Trying to evaluate site visitors here From: janet To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 00:10:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: didnt gerry take a count of how many hits or visitors the site and forum get a day? could we averagwe that out o a year for a ballpark idea of how many are at least reading the two and daring to think outside the box? your statistical analysis stopped short of the expected calculations. I was anticipating you doing the math to arrive at percentage figures of how many were ever initiated, worldwide, vs how many are left who seem to be in the fold today. wouldnt that be the most significant distillation? let's finish the math and get the final figures they lead to.

Subject: A rough rule of thumb From: PatD To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 07:40:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A quick float down memory lane gives me 30 names of people I knew/know well enough to be sure of their allegiance. 7 left as hard on anti-M monmots 21 drifted away without really talking about it 2 remain & will probably be at today's toefest(both of them have stopped giving donations) Assuming 40,000 initiates in the UK,if I've done my sums right that suggests just under 3000 left here,not many of whom are still prepared to put their hands in their pockets. Unscientific.....but a reasonable guess which could even be a touch on the high side.

Subject: One thing's for sure From: Jean-Michel To: Quiet! Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:54:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is what's in this report: EV Prop report/Europe not so much outdated IMO.

Subject: Paypal kept telling EV organizers: From: anon To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:59:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: He used to tell us at closed door meetings: r.e. propagation and participation: 'America is falling off the map.' -- Paypal Rawrat And that was back in the 1990s!! The bogus cult numbers are heavily padded with the same small groups of the same people counted at each program, every week, and then tabulated monthly. In India, the numbers at outdoor events are 'guesstimates' of passersby, the curious, and the superstitious flock of sheep. It should come as no surprise that some of the tabulators by day are also Arthur Anderson - Enron type creative accountants. Cooking the numbers, and probably cooking the books. Yes, the cult is falling off the map...

Subject: The cult is over From: Cal To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 09:43:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you call the 'information line' in Northern California USA, (510-464-3081), which is advertised on the EV and ELK websites, the recording says that there are NO MORE video or satellite programs available in Northern California, so if you are 'interested' try calling back some other time and, otherwise, tough shit! They do advertise going to Australia, but of course I don't think non-PWKs are even allowed in. So much for speading knowledge to anyone interested. What a joke. The Maharaji cult is SO OVER, it doesn't even pretend to do propagation anymore. No wonder the premies/students/PWKs are depressed and don't want to talk about it. Who would?

Subject: Your info re; N Cal is incorrect From: CPG To: Cal Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 16:37:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is a local event announced on the info line, as there will continue to be from time to time. There is a small team in place to fascilitate info and events for the small but steady stream of new people who are interested in self knowledge. In the 20 years I have been around, I have never seen a huge rush of new people, but there are always some who are interested, and while I don't know the numbers it doesn't seem to have changed that much. Quite a few from N cal received Knowledge not to long ago. We just let go of the rented hall in favor of renting rooms for events as needed in hotels etc, as most seem to watch broadcasts at home these days, and the ongoing support of the hall was always difficult and no longer seemed to make sense.

Subject: Yes it is From: Cal To: CPG Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 18:04:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you call that stupid 'information line' in Northern CA, you are told there are NO programs (videos, satellites, etc.) planned and to try back again some other time. This sounds awfully dead to me. The fact is, if somebody wanted to find out about M, they wouldn't be able to do it unless they happened to know a "student" and that person actually told them about M, which most don't do. I would love your definition of a 'huge rush of people' and 'quite a few,' especially when you say you 'don't know numbers.' San Francisco has never gotten anything together propagation wise, even back in the Lord of tne Universe days. It's always been a joke. We have heard about the SF church lady 'small team.' I stand by my original assessment. The Maharaji cult is dead propagation-wise. It has become just a small group of people waiting to get the next buzz from some event they actually could afford to go to.

Subject: correcting you is like pissing in the wind From: CPG To: Cal Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 12:33:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: because obviously you don't care about the facts, you only want to spout your bullshit whether it is true or not. I could come on here and say the US is at war with with England if I want, and argue with you if you tried to correct me. When you stick to such obvious misinformation, it is obvious to anyone who cares to check that you are not interested in reality, only in slamming premies, whether with spin or lies. I live in the area, genius, and I ain't no church lady, but I do know them when I see them. By the way, we have just been invaded by Martians and president Feinstein has told us all to hide in our basements. Remember, you read it here first so it must be the truth.

Subject: Correcting bullshit From: Cal To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 13:45:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay, so how about 'the facts?' You don't give any. Do you deny what you get if you call the No. Cal information number, (no events, call back some other time) or not? Why do you not consider this a joke, if there is actually "propagation" happening? Do you deny that there are no 'events' even 'planned' that an 'interested person' could go to? You don't deny any of that, don't provide any contrary information, and, like a good cult member, you just assume it's all 'perfect' and that I must just be relaying bullshit. Yeah, it's FINALLY really happening, a mantra that has been recited in the Maharaji cult for 30 years. Somehow, nothing ever happens. How about actually addressing what I actually said? How many people have received knowledge from San Francisco in the last year, or even the last five years? How many 'interested people' or 'aspirants' are there? Do you know? How come Maharaji is leading the incredibly shrinking cult such that there are thousands fewer followers than he had 20 years ago? How come most people have never even heard of him? It's probably not because Maharaji is spending the millions that his devotees have given him on 'propagation.' No, I think not. I think that money went to stuff Maharaji would rather be involved in, like yachts. Yes, such great priorities. All the effort goes into "spreading knowledge." I guess this is why Daya needs a restaurant.

Subject: CPG just Corrected your bullshit From: MacSurfer To: Cal Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 20:47:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's just that you read between the lines instead of reading the lines. No wonder you flunked out.....:(

Subject: Duh... From: AJW To: MacSurfer Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:55:16 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't Cal merely relay what's on the cult answerphone? Surely anyone who thinks it's not true can phone up and find out for themselves. And what does it matter that the cult's crumbling into chaos? It's all about an inner experience, right Premie-Ji? Anth, 'Openuppa your heart to the Universe of Snot'.

Subject: Maybe you could try Claritin From: Cal To: MacSurfer Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 22:13:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Re: Correcting bullshit From: CPG To: Cal Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 20:46:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who is curious has called the line and knows you are full of shit, so I haven't bothered to respond directly. I called the line right after I read your post and there is an event anounced on it. I have made no claims that things are taking off, rather they are slow but steady as usual. You happened to spout utter bullshit about an area from which someone was listening. Try Timbuktu next time you fabricate lies; maybe you won't be busted. And there is a LOT happening within me, every day, and thats all I really care about.

Subject: within inside you, right From: Cal To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 22:11:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well, I called 'the line' and the only EVENT that was mentioned was AMAROO. This is not exactly an introductory event, now is it? Hey, yeah, just spend thousands of dollars and fly off into the middle of the fucking Australian desert! Yeah, right. And just 'what' is happening within you, other than intestinal gas, that isn't happening within me, buster! Get with it and try thinking. You don't have anything anyone else doesn't have. I found that out the hard way. I used to believe the same crap you do. So, I guess you agree then. Propagation is dead as a door nail in the Maharaji cult and Maharaji is not lifting one chubby finger to do anything about it. So much for his professed 'mission.'

Subject: press 1 for events genius From: CPG To: Cal Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 06:29:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess you are telephonically challenged. If you followed the instructions and pressed 1 you would have heard info on a local event. And I happen to agree with you on that one, I can't see spending thousands to go to an event, but for those who have it, good for them. How do you know whats happeneing in me/. How can you dispute the experience of someone else/ Just because you didnt have an experience doesn't mean shit. Do you dispute the experience of anyone in a religion, another meditation technigue, a martial art, or an excercise regiment because it doesn't work for you/. Its this kind of intolerance and fascism the world can do without. Spend your energy finding something that makes you happy instead of trying in such a lame manner to begrudge others their happiness. What a sad, bitter fool.

Subject: NO INTRO EVENTS, IDIOT From: Cal To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:23:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THIS IS NOT AN INTRODUCTORY EVENT, IDIOT!!!! THERE ARE ZERO INTRO EVENTS SCHEDULED IN THE BAY AREA.... JESUS YOU ARE STUPID. DO YOU HAVE A BRAIN?

Subject: Fine example From: Dermot To: CPG Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:12:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is an EX premie forum. 'How do you know whats happeneing in me/. How can you dispute the experience of someone else/ Just because you didnt have an experience doesn't mean shit. Do you dispute the experience of anyone in a religion, another meditation technigue, a martial art, or an excercise regiment because it doesn't work for you/. Its this kind of intolerance and fascism the world can do without. Spend your energy finding something that makes you happy instead of trying in such a lame manner to begrudge others their happiness. What a sad, bitter fool.' If you REALLY stand by that then what on earth are you doing here? You should be practising your K and not giving this place a second thought. How can you know what's happening in an EX premie? How can you dispute their experience? Just because you have an experience doesn't mean shit. Do you dispute he experience of an EX Sai Baba, EX muslim, EX Rajneesher etc because it doesn't work for you? It's this kind of intolerance and fascism the world can do without.Spend your energy finding something that makes you happy instead of trying in such a lame manner to begrudge others their happiness. What a sad, bitter fool. See the irony? .....and actually it is YOU who are out of place here. If Prem Pal was at an event and I got up and said what you just said.....you'd think me out of order and out of place...yes? So why not run along.....go practise the techniques......hang on every word Prem utters and leave us be. It's simple really.

Subject: all this tuff happening within inside me From: gerry To: CPG Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 21:18:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: And there is a LOT happening within me, every day, and thats all I really care about Do you understand how this sounds? If not, I will tell you: it sounds like a stunted, solipsistic cult member.

Subject: Your cult - not mine. From: Right back at ya - brother ji To: gerry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 00:32:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: No it's not, Cal From: The Falcon To: Cal Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:20:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: in sunny Brighton yesterday approx. 3000 of the faithful gathered to warm themselves near the embers of what used to be a conflagration, to listen and have 'expressions', this is the latest fad from little Prem. No questions though, I wonder why. Has phase 2 happened and we weren't told? Great to meet up with dear old friends though,even if they are in a cult. A dwindled few, looking land-locked and caught wrong-footed in the penalty area that M has defined.I was reflecting this morning how it has become everything that I did not want, guru-worship, belief systems, limits, jargon, selfishness, cult-behaviour and no enlightenment-call me old-fashioned!! This relatively benign cult will run and run until he dies but the fierce dream of propogation (I still have that idealism although somewhat tempered by wisdom these days)is a vague memory and the lion has already eaten the lamb. It is highly unlikely to expand in any way because people have too much access to information these days. As the saying goes, 'How're you gonna keep 'em down on the farm after theyv'e seen Broadway?'. all the best

Subject: That's what I mean about 'over.' From: Cal To: The Falcon Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:03:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If even the pretense of propogation is gone, it attacks the root of the belief system, which is that knowledge would benefit everyone, and Maharaji isn't about just being stinking rich, he is about helping the world through spreading knowledge. It also takes away the rationale for donating money, when absolutely nothing is happening. With this gone, all that is left is a dwindling club of stragglers, probably a few thousand in Europe and less in North America, aging boomers who got involved when Maharaji was god and they still believe it. But otherwise, it's definitely over.

Subject: Attrition and EPO killed it... From: Yes, the cult is finished To: Cal Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 20:39:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: but None of us are free when one of us are chained...

Subject: Open letter to 'John Francs' From: JHB To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 00:09:05 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: John, You sent the following to the EPO mailbox, where you questioned whether I would have the 'guts' to publish it. I then tried, from three different email addresses, to send the reply I repeat below, thanking you for your mail and inviting you to discuss these issues further. All three replies were rejected saying that your address was not accepting mail from those addresses. As there is no way you could have known all three addresses, it is clear to me that you did not wish to read any replies. If this is true, it is somewhat hypocritical to talk of having 'guts'. If your inability to receive replies is an honest mistake, then I am still open for an email discussion - get in touch. Anyway, here's your mail:- --- Johnfrancs@aol.com wrote: > I am sickened by your expressions of grievances > against Maharaji. > I have know him personally for 30 years and he has > alway been helpful and > kind to me. > I have never asked him for anything because he said > and still says that what > you are looking for is within you. This I know to > be absolutely true. I > found my own joy and happiness within me and > therefore I don't ask for > anything from anyone. > > Maharaji's private life is his own affair. > You have published the blue-prints of his house. If > you did that to me and > put in danger my family and my children, I would be > extremely unhappy and > would be forced to take some action to protect > myself and family. > You seem to be no better than terrorists. Is this > what you are? Is this > what you want to be? > What gives you the right to do such a heinous act? > If it was up to me I'd have you arrested. > > > your grievances must be about feelings you have > within yourselves and out > of ignorance you appear to be lashing out at someone > you accuse of being the > cause of your pain. > This is a cowardly thing to do. Nobody is causing > you pain except > yourselves. Please recognize that, and be brave and > deal with it. > Then leave the rest of us alone to enjoy in peace > what we want to enjoy. > Perhaps you really believe we are all fools. When I > say we, I mean all those > who enjoy listening to Maharaji and practising the > techniques of > self-knowledge. How insulting it is to us. > You are the fools. Can't you see, you are spending > all your time focusing on > Maharaji, thinking about him, talking about him, > writing about him, spending > time on the internet etc etc. > It's a kind of obsession. > You would be better off being obsessed with finding > feelings of peace and > love inside of yourselves. > > > Get yourselves lives. Be for something. > > I would like to know about your private lives. > Neville seems to be very well > set up with his place etc. > John Mcgregor.....who is he. Someone whose Ego got > too big by the sounds of > it. > Get help! But please leave the rest of us > alone. > > Lets see if you've got the guts to publish this > without changing it to > somehow support your obsessional hatred of Maharaji. > > Just for your information: As far as I am > concerned, in all the 30 years I > have know him, Maharji has never done anything to > break the bond of trust and > friendship and love we share. > My reply follows:- John, Thank you for your honest expression of your emotions regarding the EPO website. I do appreciate the time you took to do that. I was surprised you apparently weren't willing to receive a reply, but hopefully you will read this. Now that we have started this exchange, perhaps you could put your emotions to one side for a moment and rationally respond to the grievances published on the website. I have repeatedly tried to get Maharaji and Elan Vital to correct any inaccuracies on the site but they have failed to do so. I'm sure you will agree if you reread the allegations that they are quite serious, and with your long personal aquaintance with Mr. Rawat, I'm sure what you say will be of value. In particular, I have a collection of tapes from the late 70's where Maharaji repeatedly demanded complete devotion to him personally. I of course believed him but I wonder what your view was? I look forward to continuing this exchange. John Brauns (address available on request, or by doing a 'Whois' on the website domain name)

Subject: JHB, it's just another hit and run driver NT From: Jethro To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 01:49:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: How deep is my love? From: Jethro To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 20:33:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have just had a sort of exchange with 'Sam' over on LG. It turns out that this person is the person brought me to m&k. It also turns out, from what he has said, that he has been present on these forums for some time and I would summize that he has also posted, under various aliases, probably one of Roupell's or catweazel's(they are all 'chums'). This Sam is also married to Lee Marges, the Australian honcho/instructor who told me about the 'fuck you video' maharaji made. I have to say that I feel really shocked and disappointed that this person was not willing to communicate to me earlier. I find it really creepy that he could just watch me posting all this time without any response. I had always hoped that he wasn't really cultified,but now I am convinced and feel like I have just lost someone really close......only , as he says, I lost him years ago. Yes Sam, I am heart-broken. I should have taken note of your state of mind all those years ago when you fucked with my head on that early acid trip. I have no intention of going into any character assasination, this has to do with the exiting process. When I read his post, basically telling me that 'I chose to walk', I remembered what it takes to be a premie in that the type of one-pointedness prem really wants, I remember that feeling of being totally focused on Him. It can make you feel really really good(high?), I remember that...but given the chance over again I would still choose to 'walk' and be with the rest of the human race. I am happy to be in the world AND of it. I am also glad that I CAN be hurt again. Anyway Sam, thanks for responding.I will now move on from the hope of restoring our friendship. Enjoy your life with Prem. I will sorely miss the 'who I thought you were'. Love Jethro

Subject: Re: How deep is my love? From: Livia To: Jethro Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:32:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jethro, I've just had a look at your thread with Sam......hmmm, not nice. This seems to be the result of being in a cult and having friends who are fellow cult members - are they your friend because they just genuinely like you, or is there a large element of co-cultdom? It seems to depend on the level of fundamentalism involved. A fundamentalist cult member will find it very difficult if not impossible to continue relations with someone who has left the cult. I think this is probably true of all cults. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, this breaking off of relations with ex cult members is even built into their constitution, so to speak - it's truly horrible. In my home town there are quite a few Jehovah's Witnesses (I'll call them JW's.) Strangely, the group here seem to be quite 'hip' - they wear fashionable clothes, like good music and possibly all come from 'alternative' backgrounds. I've come across quite a few of them over the years and in a lot of ways they are quite like premies. Every now and then, someone will leave and the whole cult turns against them, completely ignoring them and treating them as if they never existed. Sadly, the ex JW's take it in their stride because they already know it will happen. It must make for very strange dynamics in their friendships. Then if the ex JW returns, it's all as if it never happened. With premies I do think it varies. I've told a friend I'm no longer a devotee of M and after initial shock she has decided it shouldn't affect our friendship, and it hasn't. But with others I'm not so sure this would happen. Premies reading this who feel they would condemn their friends for walking away should think long and hard about the true meaning of friendship. After all, what are you - premies first and then human beings? Or human beings first? If you don't consider yourself a human being first and foremost, then think long and hard. Please. And Jethro, I do think it's basically fear that makes some premies condemn ex-premies. And fundamentalism stems from fear after all. Love to you, Livia

Subject: they have caveman thinking From: janet To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 00:55:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: this reaction of turning your collective backs on someone who was once a full member of the tribe and treating them as if they are dead, invisible, nonexistent, dates clear back to the prehistoric caveman mentality. i remember reading the Clan Of The Cave Bear series of books years ago, and coming to understand the primitive device of shutting someone out of the family if they displayed behavior that alienated, scared, freaked or diverged from the conventions of the group. The leader or the spiritual authority could dictate in a ceremony that the person no longer exited, was not one of them, and from that moment on, no one in the tribe was allowed to look at the person, answer them, react to their presence or behave in any way that acknowledged that the person existed anymore. you can imagine how much that would frustrate, sadden, upset and possibly drive the person to madness.. If they hit or struck anyone or moved things around in their determination to get someone's attention, the members were instructed to speak of it as if the spirits were trying to interfere with their lives and to continue to refuse to acknowledge the person as real. In many cases, such a decision resulted in the person despairing and taking their own life, believing themselves to really be dead. In some cases, it resulted in the person wandering away and dying as a result of the exposure to the elements without the collective advantages of the groups resources like food stored, medicine known, weapons access or the defense capabilities of the whole tribe to drive off a predator. But in some cases, the clan series being one version, the person ostracized saw that they were dealing with priimitive beingwho could not function outside a group mentality and they simply shrugged at the stubborn density of the choice and made a way for themselves based on their own intelligence, independence, skills, will and resolve-- and they survived just fine, learning new things that they would have been strictly forbidden to explore and master, had they remained limited in the group's circumscribed world view and superstitions. interestingly enough, I found a credible convergence of this in a most interesting place: the clan story places at the center of the saga, a young girl who was separated by her parents at perhaps 4 to 6 years of age during an earthquake, and she wandered and survived alone until she encountered a tribe of less evolved humans who were more apelike than her own strain. think cro- magnon vs homo erectus. they think her strange but they adopt her and try to basicaly force her into their more primitive ways, which she tries to absorb, but her superior genetic gifts keep emerging and compelling her to act in ways they find alarming and unacceptable. Ultimately, they drive her out, and she has to survive alone, but she does so successfully, using her genetic abilities to innovate, reason, invent, improve and explore. then years later I read the Urantia book, a channeled tome ostensibly purporting to be the true history of the universe and how this planet earth came to be seeded with life and allowed to develop naturally for eons to see what would emerge. The book's account of how human life appeared from the lower forms is interesting. It supposedly occurred as a result of a primate-hominid mother, pregnant with twins, who was struck by lightning during her gestatione electrical addition to the developing fetuses caused a never before seen mutation in her offspring that was the first emergence of what we would recognize as the diverging characteristics of what grew into the modern human. so the clan story and the urantia book story dovetailed interestingly. had the clan story been centered around a pair of twins, male and female, rather than just a firl child, it would have more accurately presented the scenario. twins have aunigue communication anyway, but these mutant lightning offspring had each other to play with, so they could exercise their unique new levels of mind and learned that much faster than one oddball child would alone. I cite all this by way of commentary on the primitive, superstitious attitude of premies vs ex's. sad that the premies who turn their backs on people who used to be their daily friends are displaying a level of evolution no higher than cavemen obeying their spiritual leader, to cut out the disapproved member and treat them as if they no longer exist. a million years of evolution, and no progress at all. wow. bring back that 3 monkey, 'see no evil[light technique], hear no evil[music technique], speak no evil[nectar technique]' logo. it's truer than we ever realized.

Subject: Re: How deep is my love? From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 20:10:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'This seems to be the result of being in a cult and having friends who are fellow cult members - are they your friend because they just genuinely like you, or is there a large element of co-cultdom? ' We were friends before either of us had heard of maharaji. I just bever saw the cultist in him. 'It seems to depend on the level of fundamentalism involved. A fundamentalist cult member will find it very difficult if not impossible to continue relations with someone who has left the cult. I think this is probably true of all cults.' I didn't think he was a fundamentalist at all when it came to maharaji, although he really loved the whole thing. In fact he was much more critical of maharaji than I was when I went to visit him in Oz in 93. He told me of meetings he had been in where he was openly critical of maharaji.I remember him telling me how maharaji won't evet listen to anyone. In fact it was partially him that made me begin to think that maharaji was a fraud; I used to blame everything on EV. Also his wife Lee Marges, told me in quite an emotional way about the 'fuck you' video that she refused to participate in. I really though her very brave in refusing and I naivelly thought that when I put up the information here, that she would support me. (Apparently she prefers her social position as a honcho, rather than telling the facts.) 'In the Jehovah's Witnesses, this breaking off of relations with ex cult members is even built into their constitution, so to speak - it's truly horrible.' That happened to me with the Steiner movement.(My daughter was expelled from a Steiner kindergaten because I and her mother complained about the use of corporal punishment. We were also put into coventry by the rest of 'the community'...thankfully!). Yes I knew the JWs quite well. With prem, this is particularly true, particularly amongst the inner circle(maybe Anth has a comment in this). To be honest, I am probably more fundamentalist about being an ex than many premies are about being premies. I just cannot get my head around the fact that they are following a paedophille-protector and I also believe that Jagdeo and others are being protected. There is now no mention by EV about that writ they supposedly took out against Jagdeo. It seems that everyone there wants to be quiet about it. Revisionism rules. 'And Jethro, I do think it's basically fear that makes some premies condemn ex-premies. And fundamentalism stems from fear after all.' I have no idea about Sam. I have probably misread him for years. Maybe he was annoyed because I made public about the 'fuck you' video and maybe they got flack from m/ev. Even if so, I didn't think he was so shallow. He could have told me to fuck off 3 years ago when I first put up the 'fuck-you' stuff and that would have been it for me. I now realise that he has probablky been posting/reading here for years and/or getting regular reports from the catweasel/roupell clan mob. (Notice the way he uses the word 'we'). I also have no doubt that he would do me harm(and possibly anyone disturbing his nest) given the opportunity. Anyway thanks for your comments, Love from Jethro

Subject: Re: How deep is my love? From: Anthony To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 01:35:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Jethro I've just read this thread, and feel deeply with you. Can you please tell me what this 'fuck you' video was - it sounds quite sinister. One of the aspects of a cult in danger seems to be that its adherents become increasingly vicious. They're having to deal with a lot of irreconcilable factors, and can't handle this. In some ways, they don't really know what they're doing. I've had violence threatened to me by a couple of people because I question things, and always have, with a free conscience. The sad thing to see is people revert to childish behaviour, behaving towards other with infantile vindictiveness. The sure sign of cult behaviour is that members, insteading of growing and becoming more adult in their responses (i.e. learning how to love better, and lose ego) in fact regress and do the opposite. In one of his long posts John Macgregor talked of premies behaving in this corrupted manner, and how he believed one day it would dawn on them, and they would deeply regret this. Maybe this will happen with your friend. I hope so. You've already shown your ability to forgive, so maybe one day you'll be buddies again. It's possible. Anthony

Subject: FU video - again From: Jethro To: Anthony Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:48:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It is somehwere in the archives but here it is again. In the late 80s Prem(aka Maharaji) had an instructor (initiator?) training session in Penang. At that session Prem got all the candidates together and videod them saying 'fuck you' in unison. This video was to be sent to someone who did or said something that Prem disagreed with. The person who told me, Lee Marges, was a candidate but felt really bad about it and refused to participate. Today she is a honcho in Australia. That's it! I have had no confirmation of this from others(there must have been at least 20-30 people there), nor has Lee either confirmed this publically or in private as far as I know or denied this and called me a liar. I put this up so that people getting involved with Prem should know that amongst other things he is a spoilt brat. The thing that angers me about this and other issues like Jagdeo, Padarthand (let's not forget him now, the happy groper)is the SILENCE. It is sanctimoneous, unjustified and just plain cruel. People have the right to be truthfully informed about who and what they are getting involved with. So anyone who think this is boring,and I include some former premies in this,maybe it's time YOU left this issue and moved on. Just remember why this forum was set up originally. These issues will contuinue to come up until they are dealt with. Whatever people believe about 'The Truth' or not, facts are important. So Anthony, sinister? Not really, I am sure there is many a person that would approve of Prem's behaviour and there are many other incidents that could be reported. The Prems and SaiBabas are here because people support them. That's the bottom line. I sent most of my money to Prem,before. during and after living in the ashram. So yes , I am also resposible since I was always a good earner and gave a fortune as well as many years propagating for Prem. Enough said for now, take care and thanks for your feelings(which premies call 'mind') Love from Jethro

Subject: Re: FU video aimed at Donner From: janet To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 01:08:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael Donner posted here when this video was talked about, i think it was last year, saying that he felt the FU video was made for him in specific, as Prem's profane response to him when he resigned his high position and confronted MJ with a detailed and frank list of all the reasons he[ Donner] would just not do the things he had been made to do, all the years he had served, anymore. The greaseball didn't like anyone telling him off so directly. If Donner is still reading here, perhaps he will step in an comment and clarify this again. but I'm pretty sure that was the purpose the video was made for.

Subject: to:janet and ROUPELL From: Jethro To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 09:29:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to Mike Donner it definitely wasn't about him. He had never heard of the FU video. The only other person who said he had heard about it was Roupell, who knows Lee, who in one of his posts to me said he would ask Lee about it, but never came back to meon that. WELL ROUPELL? WHAT DID SHE SAY? It's all a mystery to me. I expect Lee marges has also forgotten about it......since she refuses to comment on it. Isn't it strange how some of the most honourable people, like instructors, midwives, initiators seem to have bad memories sometime. It's all really sad sad sad. Jethro

Subject: Strangely enough Jethro From: The good Doctor To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 21:06:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About five minutes after reading your post to Sam, Lee rang me up about an unrelated topic. I mentioned your post to her. However, as long as you continue to address me as 'ROUPELL' and make brash demands of me - then I'm staying mum on all issues relating to them. I do not talk to uncivil people in my private life either. But Sam and her still have interesting memories - and photos :) of your stay at their house and remember visiting you in UK. It is only out of respect for your private life that I have desisted from making public my knowledge of your personal circumstances. I think there should be more of that online, after all, we are here as posters on a forum and no matter what our private lives are like - they are not the topic of this board. Suffice it to say, I have discovered over the years that some people are better off than others in more ways than one. =) Regarding the video - yes it was tremendous fun, I even stuck my middle finger up at the camera hoping Michael would remember me from the Brisbane residence when he grumpily accepted that I was assuming ownership of one of his light blue inscribed shirts. I wore it for months, completely tripping out on the 'Michael Donner gave me this' when people asked me what the MD on the breast pocket stood for! Truth is, he left it on his bed for one of the Ashram prems to get - but I got it first. Ah, the spiritual ego never had it so good! :) When we got them all to the airport, he shuffled around still in a grump. Not a very happie chappie. No wonder he walked!

Subject: David Roupell admits to being on the FU video From: Jethro To: The good Doctor Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 22:14:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: .Is that polite enough? I used to follow this guy who told me that I had to give up my social respectability if I wanted to come to 'The Truth'. A pity he didn't listen to his own words, then maybe he could have achieved something in 'this world' by not putting himself above everyone. 'However, as long as you continue to address me as 'ROUPELL' and make brash demands of me - then I'm staying mum on all issues relating to them. I do not talk to uncivil people in my private life either. ' Hmmm, is ROUPELL not your name then?Or maybe you don't like people who use big print? Life is life, private or not. Didn't the PM ever show you that? 'But Sam and her still have interesting memories - and photos :) of your stay at their house and remember visiting you in UK. It is only out of respect for your private life that I have desisted from making public my knowledge of your personal circumstances.' Is that a veiled threat to show people that I eat corn flakes in the morning or Weetbix( what did you Ozs do with the missing 'a'?). Did Sam show the photo of when he refused to stop the car so that my 5 year old daughter could throw up? He eventually did stop the car after having a good laugh at her. Yes Roupell,I can get as perosonal as you want. Get as personal as you like matey. 'I think there should be more of that online, after all, we are here as posters on a forum and no matter what our private lives are like - they are not the topic of this board. Suffice it to say, I have discovered over the years that some people are better off than others in more ways than one. =)' Too crypic for me. Are you really JohnT? For your admission to being on the FU video, I thank you. You just may have some balls after all. I was beginning to wonder if I had imagined that conversation with Lee. Maybe all of you that were on the video should do another one for all of us exs? Or you could do a 'Where are they now program'. Once again, many many thanks. You should get a job as a messenger boy. Boy.

Subject: Happy Groper Pardathanand From: Marshall To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:15:06 (PDT) Email Address: none Message: Jethro, Sorry to have you repeating yourself yet again, but would you mind explaining, please, this 'happy groper' comment? I missed this, and would like to know the details. Thanks, Marshall

Subject: wasn't Parlokanand a 'divine groper' also? [nt] From: gerry To: Marshall Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:25:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: FU video - again From: Anthony To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 04:08:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Jethro Please replace the word sinister with disgusting and pathetic. No wonder Lee Marges didn't want anything to do with it. Best wishes Anthony

Subject: Anthony From: Jethro To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 00:32:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yes I have no doubt that her instincts led her not to participate, but why is she mum on the subject? This demonstrates perfectly the devotee sickness, where the laws/rules that apply to ordinary folk(ie not satguru) are suspended. From what I known of Lee, she is a very actively, caring person who has a strong sense of justice; but she just can't apply those values to maharaji, who in her mind is someone 'divine' and cannot be challenged. Bye for now Jethro

Subject: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: Thorin To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:54:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi I was testing the anyboards forum to see if MP3 files can be uploaded. It can! Click on the above link for some pretty amazing stuff. Including Maharaji saying, in his own words, that he is God. Thorin Premies are a burden to Maharaji www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/91.html

Subject: His generosity with our money knew no bounds ... From: cq To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 11:55:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Here's what 'God' said: 'So it's like, there's that fine line. To me - we have to be missionaries, because that's what we are. We have to be freelance volunteers. We don't have to ask anything of this organisation. This organisation will ask a lot of us, and that's what we have to be prepared to give - all the way. You can do your service, that is fine. I am married, you know, it's not like I am against marriage. But the point is - are you being a burden? If you are being a burden, then gracefully - step aside. And you can, you can do more in your community, as an individual premie, than maybe you can even do as a co-ordinator if you wanted to, because nothing is impossible. But if any way you are a burden, step aside. Now that's the whole thing - a lot of people would like to ... y'know - get paid, and it's just like - it's such a tricky situation. And doing things like that - I'm just individually taking care of it. And I'm dealing with every problem as individual (sic) as possible. I'm not trying to bear a flat line on that. But that is the way I have to reason things. Everybody here is a volunteer. Now you look for two dollars and fifty cents a week from Divine Light Mission - well this is missionary money. This is ... this is ... this money that comes in is for God's purpose, it's for Guru Maharaji's purpose, it's for propogation purpose. And it gets wasted on some peanut butter cups, y'know, it's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. But in some cases, it's almost like - you have to do it. Where you have to pay a certain person this much amount. Certain cases - it's just ridiculous, y'know. Certain cases you can get by and ... you're still OK.' Verbatim transcription of Maharaji's address at the Portland Co-ordinator conference of 1977. transcription here www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/98.html

Subject: You're all still dwelling on it. From: Twenty five years later To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 21:53:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't you think it's time to move on - let it go!!!

Subject: 25 years is significant? From: cq To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:02:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You mean criminals shouldn't be prosecuted for crimes they committed in the past? You might not like to think of the Maha as a criminal - but did you waste years of your life in service to him, based on his false claims of being the Messiah? Maybe you think even historians should let the past go?

Subject: Because 25 yrs later it's still happening [nt] From: Neville To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:43:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Like witnesses to a crime.... From: Crispy To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 07:39:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey pal, sorry you see it that way. Don't overlook the real reason we're here and speaking out :- namely to pass on information to anyone who wants to know if Mj is leading a deceptive cult or not. Like a moral conscience to alert and warn the unsuspecting, like a general service to the public at large, the facts about the real man behind the stage-show are made known so people can make more informed choices. If everyone who saw through the facade and left never spoke out, then it would allow the deceptive lie to perpetuate. Think of it is as (1) a kind of crime prevention, and (2) support/aid to those who want to escape. It's not the forum's fault that Mj and his devotees are afraid of public criticism when their own track records have brought it on themselves.

Subject: Tell ya whut, pal From: gerry To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 07:07:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When Rawrat moves on, ie stops trying to perpeptuate his con job, then I will personally 'move on.' In fact, I'd *love* to 'move on' but as long as Rawrat is continuing to recruit new cult victims, I can't. So you see, it's really up to the perfect master of our time.

Subject: facing/dwelling/dealing with it From: Livia To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 05:17:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh unbelievably anonymous one - have you even dealt with it? Surely the best thing is: face it, dwell on, deal with it, and then move on, in that order. Or don't you even want to face it? Livia

Subject: Statute of limitations From: Sir Dave To: Twenty five years later Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:10:30 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When one's life has been fucked around with, there is no statute of limitations.

Subject: Re: Statute of limitations From: CACHE To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:27:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: SD - been meaning to post this tidbit of State Law where many programs were held when the Guru was 15 & 16 and his Goddess was definitely over the age of 21: State law says a person convicted of engaging in sexual activity with someone between the ages of 12 and 16 can be sentenced to as many as 15 years in prison. The victim's consent is not a defense. Not that I'm 'dwelling on it'. I just read current events in the paper and think, 'Wow.... how did they get away with that?' Cache

Subject: Havng listened to it From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:25:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Maharaji sounds like a cheap fraud. God? - ha ha ha! How did I ever get hooked into all that?

Subject: Re: His generosity with our money ... From: PatD To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:42:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the transcription,as we're still running steam powered computers here in Warwickshire. Strip out the 'Godhead giving direction' notions(couldn't be done at the time)& you're left with the blatant 2 bit hustler & bully boy. 'So it's like, there's that fine line. Never an explanation as to how to stay on the right side of it. But if any way you are a burden, step aside. Never an explanation of what being a burden means. And it gets wasted on some peanut butter cups, y'know, it's just not worth it. And that's the way I look at it. Finally the truth,'it's all mine because that's the deal,I'm the master & you're the slaves'. What a cockroach,no wonder he wanted all this stuff burnt.

Subject: Re: His generosity with our money ... From: cq To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:57:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: should I mention that he says: 'a lot of people would like to ... y'know - get paid' then he quibbles about the princely sum of 2 dollars 50 cents a WEEK! If ever there was a MahaRADGY, then Prem Pal Rawat HAS to be the 'KING' - of CHEAPSKATES! (Mind you, in his own mind, he still thinks he's cooler than Frosty the Snowman.)

Subject: cheers, worked fine NT From: jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 20:05:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: nt

Subject: Am I hearing things? From: Sir Dave To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:57:23 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Did the guy asking the question of Maha really say he had one and a half children? Actually this is just the usual Maha money talk. He was refering to the burden being premies who were being paid (as community co-ordinators) when the money could be going to him. It must have been so sad for him to have seen that money going to someone else.

Subject: You heard what he said, Dave From: cq To: Sir Dave Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:36:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I guess by saying that he had 'one and a half children' the premie who asked the question meant to imply that he'd had one child and the other was 'on the way'. But you guessed that? As for the 'usual Maha money talk' - well, yes, it was usual for us premies back in the 70s to think that any money spent on anyone but the Guru was wasted. But I guess that was part and parcel of the whole 'devotion and surrender' trip we'd bought into. If any 'true' premie had access to ... financial resources (i.e. money) - it wouldn't have been considered to be their money any more, had they obeyed Maharaji's agya and joined the ashram. And he talks about begrudging $2.50 a week for peanut butter??? Jeez, what a skinflint! IMO, history will record that the Maha simply had youth, inexperience, and a 'nothing to lose' mentality' on his side when he embarked on fleecing us, in the 'name of the Lord'. Suckers we were, no doubt. Innocent, wishful, gullible, mostly honest (if you don't look to closely at the members of his inner sanctum) - yup, all of that, but suckers we (the more honest ones) were at heart. The puzzle is how he still manages to pull the wool over the eyes of his new converts - despite his attempts to burn the books about his past. And despite the attempts of EPO and the various forums to awaken the fledgling suckers that are about to find themselves on the road to dependency on this 'non'-guru! It's a thankless task, ain't it?

Subject: I don't think he is From: Sir Dave To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:19:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't think Maha is pulling the wool over any new converts eyes. He's hardly getting any new converts in the west at all these days and the ones he does get leave the fold after a short while. I mean, there's only so many times you can watch a video of the same guy saying the same thing and there's only so many knowledge reviews you can sit through hearing the same techniques given, yet again.

Subject: Vancouver 1977 Co-ordinator? From: Thorin To: cq Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:08:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What I would be really interested in knowing is who the Vancouver (acting) co-ordinator was in 1977 who had, what Maharaji describes, as a 'problem'. Also what this guy actually thought of how Maharaji dealt with his 'problem' - apparantly via Mike Dettmers. Where is Jim when we need information he is likely to know :) Thorin

Subject: Re: Vancouver 1977 Co-ordinator? From: Jethro To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 20:41:32 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If anything was spoken about that was NOT about k or m or m;s life then it was a problem. I have no doubt it is the same today.

Subject: Re: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: Tim G To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 16:12:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin I got the message 'couldn't open file as data was in a bad or damaged format' regards Tim

Subject: Thanks Thorin From: Nottm Bunny To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 16:00:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I dont think I will throw away all of those seventies tapes just yet............... Bunny

Subject: from peanut butter cups to gulfstreams From: Brian Smith To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:42:51 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: multi million dollar yachts, homes, cars, helicopters and other luxurious toys. The peanut butter cup $2.50 cent a week monologue was circa 1977, Maharaji/aka prem rawat economics have changed in a very big way since then

Subject: Re: Peanut Butter cups anyone? From: NikW To: Thorin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:27:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thorin, Thanks (I think) it certainly worked, very weird experience listening to THAT voice after, for me, 24 years. Not too sure I want to repeat it. But I like the trick of just chopping a file extension off to make something work. Nik

Subject: 'Smoke and Mirrors' is Satguru(BS#2) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:52:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A follow up to BS with a Buzz.... It struck me today after attending a Unitarian church service in which the minister gave a wonderful talk on the varieties of religious/spiritual experience, how utterly vapid and bankrupt the M/K trip is..... First of all, the minister talked about the literally hundreds or maybe thousands of 'paths' to be found worldwide, each having given some group of people an 'experience' at one time or another.....obviously no one holds an exclusive patent on 'inner experiences', and these experiences cannot be measured, qualified or verified by anyone other than the subjectve viewpoint of the individual. Second, the pursuit of 'an experence' without an ethical framework in ones life can lead to disastrous results....(anyone we know?) Third,the person 'preaching' must be doing the 'practicing', or how else do they even know it's possible for others? (I wonder how many days in m's life he has practiced for an hour or more?) Fourth, in the realm of 'inner experience', there are literally hundreds of different types of 'experiences' that people have had and tried to describe, all of them different, and sometimes very unalike in nature... Fifth, if ones inner spiritual life is not lived, shared and brought out into the 'world', via some sort of service to humanity, it becomes narrow, introverted and ultimately inconsequential...(sound familiar?) If it is not 'challenged' in the outside world, how will it survive? There are more of these points to be made, but at some point I realized that M's whole trip is so much 'smoke and mirrors'... Yes, we used to think that 'peace and bliss is satguru', but it now seems closer to 'smoke and mirrors is satguru' (master).... The entire knowledge trip is based on M, and when M is exposed for the fraud that he is,it gets very difficult to keep it going.... In fact, the only way it can keep going is for M to lie more and more as he engages in denial and evasion, and for the premies to 'look the other way' and 'sweep it under the carpet' more and more in order to keep the dysfunctional game alive... So we now have 'Lie and Deny' from the master and 'Sweep or Weep' from the student.... But the stage presence goes on, and maharaji can still get away with one thing: He still plays the 'warm fuzzy' stage persona, and premies still like to lap it up. It's good for g-business.(guru-business) It keeps the customer satisfied by keeping the myth alive(along with a buzz for reinforcer), and keeps the customer coming back for more....(not so much different than rats, cheese and a cage...) The master gets more empowered(and wealthier) in his role as provider of 'that experience', and the customer gets more entrenched as unworthy, but eternally greatful 'recipient' (beggar).... It all rests on a myth, with a sometimes powerful group experience, and carefully planned and polished, but never questioned or examined, stage act..... When premies finally see through the man, the myth and the act, they will realize that all of the wonderful so called 'mystical experiences' that they have read about and wanted are available to anyone, and probably have been for as long as people have been around.....in fact, I have had more 'peak' experieces since I gave up the M/K treadmill/ratrace, and a better quality of life to be sure.... Although I started out 30 years ago in search of these experiences with M at center stage, it is now quite clear that he is a detriment to anyone who wants to fully live, love and grow to their fullest potential. I believe that he has known this for most of those past 30 years, but due to greed, deception, lust for power, personal addictions and lack of any authority figure in his life to question him, he has continued to deceive premies and the few aspirants who remain......

Subject: Shouldn't it be 'pissed and blitzed is Satguru?' From: gerry To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:33:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Excellent post. La-Ex. Sorry about the lousy joke...

Subject: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:35:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Having overcome the urge to cancel out, I will be going to Brighton tomorrow. Anyone who was at Nottingham last summer will be aware of how the agenda was, in fact, formulated by the revelations of EPO. How else could one understand the violations of history registered in the 30 year retrospective 'Passages'? Maharaji's subsequent statement on the Elan Vital website that he never said he would bring peace to the world? Also, Glen Whittaker's immediately following desperately cack-handed attempt on the Elan Vital website to revise premie history to whitewash out anyone from pre-1980? 'Never in the annals of religious revisionism was so much asked from so decent a follower by so unscrupulous a Master?' Will I be the only one to assess Maharaji's discourse as an attempt to answer his critics? In particular, will he address the following: That, instead of hedging with rubbish that values don't count because they are culture-bound, a true Master will always endorse the simplest all-embracing value statement to 'Love God with all of our heart, soul and mind, and our brother as ourself?' And also, finally, make clear that the human mind is not the enemy? In other words, differentiate between the true gifts of objective reason and personal conscience, and merely mind on over-drive which is the problem. In facing up to these points, he might win back some of his questioning congregation. Maybe it's too far gone.. I'll wait and see. I'll certainly shake hands, however, with any of you guys I see there. Best wishes to all, Anthony

Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: Bolly To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 07:38:06 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony Sorry you couldn't get to the mini Latvia, next time I trust we'll see you. Thanks for going to Brighton today I will be unable to attend as I have to listen to some paint drying. Only Joking it's dry already, but I am not up to makng the trip due to other commitments. Enjoy the presence and remember to breathe, Love Bolly PS 250 miles from here puts you up north or summat, look forward to hearing of your blisssfull day

Subject: Re: Tomorrow is Brighton.. From: AV To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:17:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your clear post, let me know how it goes; I went to Nottm, I must have missed PASSAGES. I particularly liked your bit about mind on overdrive , bit more humane than 'the evil one upstairs'. AV

Subject: The Elusive Blondes From: Anthony To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 08:57:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been following EPO and Forum 7 (with a great deal of admiration) seriously since the beginning of this year. One point I've never solved, however, is the question of Maharaji and the blondes. In his depositions, Michael Dettmers narrates arranging premie women to meet Maharaji in hotels after Events. However, he has said in his phone conversation with Mike Finch's friend: 'Any other weaknesses? 'Apparently for blondes!' It's apparently general coinage here that Maharaji has indulged in sexual misbehaviour with a series of blondes. As this is a serious allegation, could I therefore ask the following: 1) Why none of the said victims has come forward with a deposition? 2) Can anyone supply an instance of the same happening, either directly, or as an anecdote from a known source? I realise that the consequences of having experienced such a possible violation could be extremely traumatic. However, the lack of substantiation of this bothers me quite greatly. Can anybody now furnish direct evidence of this, or anecdotal evidence from persons they know to substantiate this? Somewhat worried, Anthony

Subject: Blonde, Brunette, Auburn... From: Cynthia To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 10:47:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Does it really make much difference what color the hair was? I know we've referred to these women as 'the blondes' a lot, me too. Now it sounds demeaning to me. Especially when you click on a any joke page in the internet universe and they have a section for blonde jokes. Yes, I love those jokes, too, but maybe if our reference to them didn't have this 'blonde' slant when talking about them one of them might talk about their experience. I personally don't care about Rowat's gear or his performances. I look at the whole thing as a power and exploitation situation and hope these women, if ever they came here to post, would feel comfortable to discuss their feelings (and not feel compelled to give the dirty details) without being called 'the blonde,' or someone who fucked Maharaji. Think about it...if it were you...how would you feel reading this thread? :):) Cynthia

Subject: Some evidence for you From: JHB To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:32:22 (PDT) Email Address: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk Message: Anthony (and Carlos), The brother of one of the women Maharaji took advantage of wrote to me as webmaster, and confirmed the story previously published by a third party on the forum. I tried with appropriate sensitivity to get him to persuade her to tell her story, but understandably, she was unwilling to do so. To me, it is remarkable than any of Jagdeo's victims have spoken out, and it would be equally remarkable if any of the 'blondes' spoke out in public. Dettmers has proved to me that he is an honorable man, and has potentially damaged his own professional reputation by speaking out. His other allegations which have been confirmed by Donner and Mishler are damaging enough, and no one is denying the many times confirmed account of Maharaji's long standing affair with Monica. What possible reason could Dettmers have for lying? John.

Subject: Re: Some evidence for you From: Peter Howie To: JHB Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:08:26 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another aspect, On this forum we have had people who have been fucked over by Mj but no-one so far as I know that has actually fucked him. Now I put this forward with mild trepidation - but I am aware of a rather peurile facination with the subject - what this would mean is that I would want to know - even if I never asked - what he was like - does he have a big dick, did he perform well, was he a looser etc. Now I'm not really interested - but anyone who posted as per this discussion would be open to questions of that sort. It would tap into the desire to humiliate and degrade MJ. If he was a looser in bed as well as in other ways all the better. Anyway - my two bobs worth. Peter Howie Brisbane, AUSTRALIA

Subject: i seem to recall.. From: janet To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 01:54:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that one of the times we have had this discussion come up since I have been on the board-- that someone who was one of the unfortunates that he had a tryst with said that he was adolescent and inept in bed. Inexperienced, had'nt a clue, fumbled and awkward and didn't know what he was doing-- sort of like you would imagine any teenager to be when thinking he was acing out his peers by bedding an older woman. I beleive the details came to us third hand, via someone who had talked to someone who had been one of the so-called trysts in Miami. shudder. and sagittarian men kiss like overeager puppies anyway. messy, sloppy, think: a dog licking your face with no finesse. like that. sorry, you saj men. your boyish excitement could use some polishing. work on that jumpy attention span. smirk.

Subject: Puerile? hilarious more like From: hamzen To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 13:24:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About four years ago there were mentions of three occasions, one woman was so disgusted when paypal tried to 'pull' her she left immediately, she'd been a gung-ho devotee for years and obviously didn't get the lila, another one was treated by him so bad in the morning she had a breakdown, but the third and most authoritative hinted at the hilarious, she described it as one of the most bizarre nights of her life, no photos or video like doc or carlos would like, but the implication was that he was COMPLETELY useless. I reckon he just has a tiny dick, and with his complete lack of social training is completely useless at communicating on an equal basis with anyone, whether sexually or otherwise. Remember it was only 4 years after marilyn married the lord of the universe that she was shagging their chauffeur, which is a bit of a comedown. But seriously just try to imagine him on the pull, for ages I kept getting this hilarious image of him trying to go down on her, or doing a 69er, and kept cracking up. Now if ev had any sense they'd get a doctored video out for premie porn sessions, even if hilarious it would have to be more interesting than any of his I'll repeat for the one millionth time the same ole nuthing talks.

Subject: You have reached a new low From: Observer To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 00:20:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: here on Forum 7. Congratulations.

Subject: Re: You have reached a new low From: Livia To: Observer Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 05:20:31 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry observer, you're in denial. You don't dare doubt the purity of the master, therefore whatever he does is fine. Face it. Some of it just aint fine and you think it is - because you've been corrupted. Livia

Subject: I'm in denial?? From: Observer To: Livia Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 20:54:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm just observing, and what I see is a group of middle aged lost souls speculating about the size of someone's penis. Doesn't give alot of credibility to your website. You are seriously obsessed and making fools of yourselves.

Subject: Re: I'm in denial?? From: Livia To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 15:25:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry mate but that was one post amongst hundreds. I don't think you or anyone could claim that we've spent much time on that one. After a little idle speculation there seemed to be general agreement that it wasn't really a suitable topic for debate. Seriously obsessed? You just don't get it, do you? Where can we talk about all this stuff in the process of deconstructing what for a lot of us was a 30 year mindset, entered into in our formative years? No one except fellow ex premies could possibly be expected to understand. Some people don't personally know any ex premies at all. People come here to discuss something they've felt unable to discuss with each other openly and honestly, well - ever before actually. For a very clear analysis of the premie mindset and conditioning and how hard it is to shake off, have a look at John Mcgregor's posts on EPO. They are long, clear and articulate. Read them and think about them - he's no fool. And if you think he is, I suggest you look a bit closer to home, observer. Livia

Subject: Thanks for that response From: Observer Too To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 00:28:27 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I do understand, that's why I read here. I think there are people in the process of exiting, but have not officially announced themselves as 'exes'. They (we)are also trying to sort out feelings and confusions developed over many years of conditioning. Don't be so quick to reply with your 'cult' responses of how we're in denial. It is possible to walk away without a hatred for Maharaji. And it is possible to walk away without joining the 'ex-premie' crusade. I think you may find, maybe after many years of therapy, that some good came from all of your years with knowledge, and no matter how evil you may think M is, you'll stop being so hard on yourself for being too weak to walk away. The door was always open. We chose to stay.

Subject: Maharaji the sexual predator From: Cal To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 14:04:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Oh, dear. You are getting testy, aren't you? Look, we spent years, worshiping Maharaji's body, singing songs about his 'golden' form, about his 'lotus' feet, about how he 'glowed' and Maharaji, ever the extreme exhibitionist, danced around in front of people half naked while they worshipped him. So, to speculate on the size of his penis, (which I have heard is lacking but who cares), would seem to be expected. To me, it is bad enough that Maharaji had sex with premies. The whole, notorious problem with the power relationships come to mind, and it is a big problem that lots of gurus have gotten into. Most have sexually exploited their followers, and Maharaji is apparently no different, but it is no less disgusting. It is far worse than an employer sexually exploiting a subordinate, because these women no doubt had the same programming we all did, and believed he was a supreme being. What's worse though, it appears after he fucked them, he dumped them. Michael Dettmers reported that after Maharaji had sex with them, usually in hotels to hide it from Marolyn, he wouldn't speak to them again, and Michael had to deal with the mess, until he told Maharaji that he wouldn't do it anymore, after he had to deal with three such women. I think it would be a 'fool' who refused to see Maharaji as he really is, and a greater fool who wouldn't hold him to the standards you would expect of anyone else. Of course, in his 'position' that he used to his advantage, he has to be held to a stricter standard.

Subject: na, we're just breaking taboos From: janet To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:02:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that's all. if it's forbidden, we're going there. ain't no sacred cows around here, pal. scared cows, maybe. but not sacred. prem pal's dick is fair game. if he dare not talk about it, we will. like everything else about him, it's grossly overestimated. heh.

Subject: Could you explain please? [nt] From: JHB To: Observer Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 01:10:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: John...2 + 2 + 2 = 7 Yes -That's RIGHT!! From: Peter Howie To: Helena Docitch Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 04:48:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well first up - moron is a bit harsh. I'm making an argument why any sensible person would leave sexual knowledge of MJ out of this site - and I reckon that premies would be heaps more interested than any remaining interest I or other ex's might have. The reason I put it forward 'with trepidation' is because it would likely be misunderstood - which you so thoughfully have done. Puerile means 'childish is a young boy sort of way' - or something similar. So I am admitting up front that the interest in MJ pecadillos has an immature aspect. And my hypothesis is that this immature aspect that I recognise in me, could well be in others. So I am suggesting that anyone who posted in line with these 'blondes' stories would be open to pretty tricky and nasty posts. Who would need it? Cheers Peter Howie

Subject: 2 + 1 = adultery From: Neville To: Helena Docitch Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 03:35:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hands up who wants to pursue this subject any further? I thought so. Almost no-one. So let's drop it before the trolls die of chronic self-righteousness. However, the 'blondes' accusation remains relevant. If M is really exploiting premies in this way it should be acknowleged--by everyone. Frankly, the evidence so far is strong, based on credible witness accounts, even if (understandably) none of the 'blondes' have come forward. Neville

Subject: Credible? From: Observer (not the one above, but a bigger asshole)) To: Neville Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 00:50:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry, jerkoff, you don't get to post anonymous lies about one of my favorite posters whose courage and consistency in opposing your master's insidious personality cult is beyond reproach. Stop posting here or face the consequences.

Subject: Re: Credible? Donner is. From: janet To: Observer (not the one above) Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:17:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You apparently don't know that Donner posts here and reads often. You apparently don;'t know the extent of his sincerity and the degree to which he has candidly shared, not only his premie life with us, but his personal life since he left the mission. Given a choice to beleive you or him, I would stand with him any day. You have shared nothing of yourself, your life, your personal struggle to live an authentic life, to be genuine in your relationships, both the intimate sort and the community sort-- all of which Donner has come here and spoken about to us, openly, and without guile or attitude. I liked him when he was high up in the echelons of premiedom, I liked him when he went away to serve his time for radical antics he pulled in the 60's. and I like him now that he's posting among us and living his personal life the way he is. And you are just an anonymous voice with zero behind you. What have you offered of yourself in the way of trust and collateral? Share yourself. Be substantial to us. Be more then a smear of graffiti on a wall, and I'll begin to listen. Who are you? What are you? Make yourself real to us. Do something.

Subject: Gee, that really got me where I live... [nt] From: Neville To: Helena Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 08:41:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Some evidence for you From: gossip mongerer To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 04:05:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Apparently the reports were of the unfavourable variety. Hope that answers your question

Subject: I don't even want to think about it... [nt] From: Neville To: Peter Howie Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:45:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Carlos - To Anthony To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:28:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A deposition is a formal statement, transcribed or videoed or taped, given under penalty of perjury, with an attorney asking questions that the person being deposed responds to. None of the assertions on EPO are anything like that. What you probably meant was 'depositions'. Except that those, too, are given under penalty of perjury, which nothing on EPO is. So assertions, or accusations, or perhaps rumors or gossip might be more accurate terms for you to use.

Subject: ummm-afraid they are, carlos From: janet To: Carlos - To Anthony Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:28:05 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when Dettmers came here, in response to Jim Heller's persistent invitations to discuss his years with Maharaji, he agreed to answer whatever questions were put to him, knowing full well his responses would be public record and readable by any of his clients, if they put his name in a search engine. Heller, who is indeed an attorney, was leading the questioniing. Dettmers answered as if to a deposition. And the title running on the boards then actually read. 'the continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers.' This how we learned first hand of maharaji's sending Michael to make appointments with these women maharaji chose out of the darshan lines or the crowds at DECA that he wanted to have sex with in the hotel suite, away from Marolyn. So I'm afraid that, despite your trying to minimize the information we have posted on EPO, the information was indeed obtained by deposition, fulfilling all the conditions you set out to make it one. And Dettmers treated it as one when he came to respond.

Subject: Re: ummm-afraid they are, carlos From: Carlos - To Janet To: janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 17:57:09 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Except 1 condition, Janet. There is no 'under penalty of perjury' involved in an eMail or BB post. There is the possibility of going to jail if you lie in a deposition, merely for lying. There is no such possibility in any of Dettmer's stiff on EPO, in your Journal there, in our eMails, etc. Which still doesn't make it a big deal. My distrust of Dettmers is not because he has not been deposed. If the reasons I don't trust him are of any interest to you, see my reply to Anth, below, in this same thread. No particular reason you should, I'm not seekijg a discussion about is he or isn't he a good witness, and I doubt you are either.

Subject: Carlos, resolved... From: gerry To: Carlos - To Janet Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 21:26:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The reason you disbeliever Dettmers is not because you have any evidence to the contrary, but rather it is your allegiance to your cult leader. There's nothing surprising about this and it totally discredits your opinion. Any disinterested outsider would see that in a new york minute.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: AJW To: Anthony Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:17:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, I reckon any elusive blondes, who have been screwed by the Captain, are entitled to their anonymity, unless they choose to go public for reasons of their own. Why humiliate them further? Dr Anth.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Carlos - To Anth To: AJW Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:35:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I agree that if anyone who was a one night stand of M's, or had a longer sexual relationship with him before or after his marriage doesn't want to come forward they should not be pressured. But when A and Susan found the courage to come forward about Jagdeo, which I think would probablt require more guts to do, people like me are going to take the very absense of coroberation of Dettmer's claims to have been a panderer for M as an indication that he is probably lying about that, which makes his other unsubstantiated claims more questionable than they otherwise might be.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: AJW To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 06:01:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, First, I don't doubt Michael Dettmers' integrity. What reason do you have to do so? What reason does he have to lie? What evidence do you have to show that he is lying? Do you know him personally? Has Rawat come forward to deny anything Michael has said? Why not? What upsets you so much about what Michael told us? When somebody tells you something, do you not believe what they say unless it is confirmed by a second witness? What's the problem here pal? Anth the immaterial witness.

Subject: Reply to: Re: the elusive blondes From: Carlos - To Anth To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 16:42:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You said, 'I don't doubt Michael Dettmers' integrity. What reason do you have to do so? What reason does he have to lie? What evidence do you have to show that he is lying? Do you know him personally?'. I'm an alcoholic; we don't trust easy. And while I was introduced to him at least twice, I believe (but wouldn't absolutely swear to it), but I didn't really know him even casually. I don't know what reason he wouuld have to lie. But one thing I've learned in spotting frauds that look like good deals (what is known as a 'due diligence'), and in buying drugs before I got clean and sober, just because I can't see where the trap is at 1st glance doesn't mean there isn't one. I trust people, and respect them, according to how their behavior that I know about (not just have heard about) give me reason to. If you want to give trust away unearned, go ahead. That isn't me. Certainly one part of his persona, from what I saw as well as heard of him while he was a big deal, big wheel PAM, he certainly liked being impressive. And a lot of you exes seem quit4e impressed with him. If you read his whole encyclopedia of eMails/posts on EPO, as I did, with the sceptical eye I've had since I was a kid, looking for the flavor, for lack of a better label, of either consistancy or inconsistantly ... well, I wouldn't want to invest in a deal brought to me the way he brings his story on EPO. First there was no misuse of donations, according to him (which, incidentally, fits my own experiance while having been a DLM treasurer). Then, later, he reverses course about that. Then, in his claims about M's supposed drinking he sounds like a guy who has no clue as to what the physical effect of daily drinking of the duration and the quantity he credits M to have tossed down ... for months on end ... I saw M during that period, close up and personal, at the taping when M created the Simulators for Instructers, for example. M didn't show the signs, the physical wear and tear he should have. Then he admits to being an accomplice in a supposed cover up of an accidental death by auto with M supposedly being the driver. A cover up would make it into a more serious crime, vehicular manslaughter at least. Yet Dettmers just cops to it publicly? Is he honest but stupid? Or smart but a lier? And people subjected to pedophiliac attacks have the courage to come forward, but none of the young premie women he supposedly procured for M have come forward? And these are just a few things off the top of my head. One, or even 2, unconfirmed things that don't feel quite right, somehow, maybe provisional trust could survive. Virtually every investment I've backed away from that turned out to be bogus had fewer sticky points. You said,'Has Rawat come forward to deny anything Michael has said? Why not?'. IMO, for the same reason most celebrities don't go after the things in those magazines at the check out stands, because it actually spreads the story farther. Takes something that just isn't a big deal, that produces little or no impact, and gives it power. I'm firmly convinced that is why his (or EV's, I really don't know who did them) legal respones have been confined to copyright issues. Those aren't going to spread anything! You said, 'What upsets you so much about what Michael told us?'. I'm not that upset. I don't trust him, and I dislike him, because he brings forward lots of calumny and assertions, all of which (that I've seen, I could easily have missed stuff not on EPO) are unsubstantited and calulated to make someone I love and respect look bad. DUH!!! I thought better of you; that question is not exactly showing off your brilliance. And dumb isn't usually your style, wha hoppen? You say, 'When somebody tells you something, do you not believe what they say unless it is confirmed by a second witness?'. That depends. Remember, at first Dettmers was being all, 'I still respect M, I had some great experiances with K, there wetre never any improprieties with the money, etc.) So if I trusted him when he was doing that, even tho there was no corroboration, don't you think it might be nice and REASONABLE to want some corroberation when he suddenly does a 180? As you may have noticed, Anth, I don't usually give a detailed response, point by point. But I respect you. You get a little salty sometimes, but I can't recall ever seeing you abusive, for example. Even tho I don't expect to see you even look at why it isn't unreasonable to be cautious with somebody like Dettmers, still, I don't know if anybody has ever brought this many of his oders out in 1 post. Plus, you are worth responding to. Tho I reserve the right to not do it often.

Subject: Re: Reply to: the elusive blondes From: AJW To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 07:08:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I'll try and keep it brief. Thanks for answering all my questions so diligently. Of course Michael did a 180 turn. He left the cult. Your attitudes don't stay the same once you smell the fresh air and leave. If you read my early posts, they were a lot more sympathetic to the Captain than my later ones. Leaving a cult involves changing your ideas, and it doesn't happen all at once does it? Anyway, I met Michael a few times on odd occassions- I've read his posts and corresponded with him. He's answered all the questions with honesty and integrity as far as I can see. And what he's said has been corroborated by other folk. Also, nobody's come forward from the cult to say he's lying about anything. So the lack of evidence of a lie, plus my own personal experience of the guy, lead me to stick with my view that to call him a liar is unfair. Adios Carlos Anth the 100m splinter

Subject: Re: Reply to: the elusive blondes From: Carlos - To Anth To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 30, 2002 at 14:36:04 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sorry about the delay in responding. Not having proof that he lied, nor having had him lie to me directly, I don't call him a liar. I do say I believe he is one. Granted, the only real difference between the two is lack of evidence. But at least I do see that I lack hard evidence (on the money issues I have a lot of firsrt hand or 2nd hand knowledge that contradicts his claims, but still no proof). My only problem with your stance is that you, too, lack hard evidence yet you talk about his honesty as if you did. And it isn't a big problem I've got, it just irks me a little.

Subject: Re: Reply to: the elusive blondes From: AJW To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 11:27:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, You've got a blind spot here. There's no evidence that he's lied, so why believe he's liar? That's most unfair. What has made you believe this? I'd guess it's your faith in your master. He couldn't possibly do those things Michael has said could he? He's the Perfect Master, not an arrogant drunk driver. Unfortunately Carlos, your faith, strong as it is, isn't strong enough to change the truth. Hope you make it out of the maze one day mate. I've been there, and you have my sympathies. Anth 'purple maze all in my brain'.

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: The Falcon To: AJW Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:39:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Not much 'thrill of the chase' involved for M. Surprisingly I can't see him in the role of 'The Great Seducer' I think this is an example of a profound abuse which is inexcusable, although somewhat overshadowed by Satya Sai Baba's. I was at an Indian music concert on Sunday night and sat next to A Satya Sai Baba devotee to whom I stated in as kindly a fashion as possible,'Don't you think that the reason all the abuses of these supposed god-men have become public is to enable people to think for themselves again?' A very distrbed silence ensued. If you and Dot are coming to London soon give us a shout. all the best (how's the hut?)

Subject: Good-bye Carlos From: gerry To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:02:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Carlos, you call Mike Dettmers a liar? You're the biggest liar and cult apologist to pass this page in quite some time. Here we have Michael Dettmers, making statements in public which would be libelous if untrue, and would cause Michael plenty of trouble with nothing to gain in return. It doesn't even make sense for him to be lying. His life is transparent, he is responsible and accountable yet you are making a judgement on his honesty based on what? You, on the other hand, make this ridiulous claim about seeing Maharaji as a "ball of light" for all four days of Millenium 73. I say horseshit. You are either psychotic or lying. Or both. In any case you are not anyone to be judging Mike Dettmers. What do we know about you? Nothing other than you are a cult member and your life is a wreck on almost all fronts. Compare that with Dettmers. You come out way, way short, Garble. You've worn out your welcome. Beat it. You're blocked, pal. And if you want to talk with me about this, tell your buddy at Life's Grate to unblock me...

Subject: Re: Good-bye Carlos From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 17:06:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: gerry, I don't seem to be blocked. And why should I trust Dettmers? You have at least been consistant. You never started out by saying nice things about M, and the experiance you had with K, and how you still respected M. Dettmers did. It is all there, in black and white, on EPO. And as to how courageous Dettmers is, because he says things, bad things, about someone he knows isn't going to come after him? Or do you think he is such a saint he'd have exposed himself to legal action by someone who could afford to bankrupt him by forcing him to spend 10s of 1,000s of dollars on court costs? Well, which is it? Did Dettmers have a high degree of confidence in his belief that M wouldn't come after him with civil suits and a dozen lawyers for every one that Dettmers could afford? Or is Dettmers to dumb to have realized M could have done that? Or is he to holy to care? And believe what you want, disbelieve what you want. Your acceptance or rejection of my atempts to describe what happened to me the day before Millenium and the 3 days of the festival (it was a 3 day event) don't alter the facts one bit. And you just aren't important enough, civilized enough, powerful enough, intelligent enough, for your opinion to matter to me. Calling me garble, like you think that is going to hurt my feelings somehow!!! Are you getting feeble-minded in your old age? Is that why you seem to be more and more like the typical conspireacy nut every month? Maybe you are just losing it. And asking me to ask CD to unblock you (if youm really are blocked; for all I know you could be delusional). First, how dumb do you have to be to ask something like that of someone you've just finished being rude to? 2nd, while I like CD and respect him (cause he's earned respect, and I apreciate his vision, his dream that we can come together, even with deep differences dividing us, and make the world a tiny bit better by sharing about what is beautiful; can you even get a clue about the beauty of such a vision, gerry, or are you to far gone?). well, a cyberacquaintence would be a better description. I doubt if I've got the influence with him.

Subject: Never thought I'd see it From: KnightDoc takes Pawn To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 23:16:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, My name is David Roupell. I live in Wonderland and am very rich. Well, richer than you, anyway. I belong to a cult which I joined decades ago. I think I'm clever and important, but the reality is I live quietly with my wife who is a bit older than I and Prem Rawat doesn't even know who I am! The truth about me is that I am insignificant in the premie world despite what I would like others to think. Most people, if they are aware of me at all, think I am a bit loopy and quite spoiled and rather worthless. But that gives me lots of time to spam the ex-premie board and feel good about myself even if it is only for a few fleeting seconds...

Subject: Dave, didn't you like my rewrite? From: gerry To: KnightDoc eats Prawn Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 25, 2002 at 16:56:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: All those red letters, you're gonna blow a gasket. Hey well, my girlfriend gave another thirty days here in Evergreen Park with her (and it's very nice, thank you) and I'm gonna get an application in at the door factory sometime next week so things are looking up thank you very much, Dave. Now that crack about my failed forum, Dave, that stung. You really know how to hurt a guy. I don't think I can talk to you for a while until you say you are sorry.

Subject: Queen takes knight From: janet To: KnightDoc takes Pawn Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 02:49:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: maharaji doesnt dare bankrupt michael Dettmers. Dettmers is the one who set maharaji up for life with the swiss bank accounts, so that mj would never again have to reply on individual donations--even yours, doc--and if all premie contributions stopped dead tomorrow, MJ would still have his opulent lifestyle, unto death. Money is all that matters to maharaji-- first, last and in between. he doesnt want to do anything that would threaten the foundations of his net worth. Dettmers signed a confidentiality agreement about what he did for MJ, and if Mj went after him, Michael could blow his shit sky high all over the world.

Subject: It's simple, Carlos From: gerry To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 17:45:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fecking Hotboards...I did try to block you, guess it only works for premies like CD by Gumaraji's grace. I'm sure the greed guru would sue Dettmers if he could. But truth is a defense against such suits and judges wouldn't look lightly on a punitive suit by Rawat. Of course Rawat's lawyers have told him as much and of course you believe the only reason Rawat isn't suing is because he is the Three Day Ball of Light, Filament of our Time and above such unpleasantries. The truth is he probable fears and hates Dettmers. Now for your personal attacks, go ahead, hit me with your best shot, big boy. I can take it, you silly fella. Garble www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame80.html

Subject: Re: It's simple, Carlos From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 18:09:25 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: FYI, you did suceed in blocking my access thru my roomate's PC at home. But there are ways around blocking, as we both know. Look, I don't believe I have ever behaved on this BB in a way inconsistant with what your BB has posted at the top. I even refrain from satsang on this BB, simply from ordinary every day courtesy. And I don't think answering an exes questions, posted on this BB, is a legitamate reason for blocking someone. It would be a tiny bit more convenient for me if you unblocked me. Why don't you do that, thereby demonstrating that what this BB says is the OK way to post here is true. Or leave me blocked, and show all of your fellow exes that what this BB says is the way to post here doesn't matter to you as much as your being able to use the AWESOME POWER of the FA does.

Subject: Did you notice the similarity? From: gerry To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 20:17:40 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I really dislike your calling Michael Dettmers a liar, which is a lot more than merely answering a question. Remember, you are a guest here, the 'opposition' really, and this is an ex board so please don't call my personal ex-premie hero a liar and I won't go to the premie BB and insult your pal Prem.

Subject: Re: Did you notice the similarity? From: Carlos - To gerry To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 17:09:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That was a very reasonable post about a reasonable objection you have (or may have, gerry. I didn't go back to see if I called MD a lier, or merely said I don't believe him. And there is a difference between saying I believe he is a lier and saying that I know, objectively, as a fact and not a belief, that he is a lier. (And being able to prove it is still another thing.)) If you try that aproach in the future, gerry, I give you my word I will look at your objection and try and do the right thing. Not for you, not for this BB, not for M. But for myself. In this case, what seems to me to be the right thing is to state that I do not have evidence that MD is a liar. I do believe him to be one, because of the reasons listed in an earlier post that seem to me to be inconsistancies too large to allow for any other explanation. But that is deduction and opinion, not evidence.

Subject: Quit wasting my time and go away... [nt] From: gerry To: Carlos - To gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 20:12:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: The Elusive Blondes From: Livia To: Carlos - To Anth Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:25:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A few months ago on this forum, I remember one of the regular posters saying they were personally acquainted with one of these blondes. Apparently this woman had been very upset because the morning after the night in question ahe was effectively ignored by Maharaji. The regular poster tried to persuade this woman to post, but she didn't want to. Either this poster made it up, or they didn't. I can't remember if it was a poster who still posts here - some posters drift away when they feel they have settled in their minds the issues they wish to settle. I'm not of the opinion that exes are in the habit of coming here and making things up, although of course there's always the possibility I could be completely wrong. I just somehow doubt it, firstly because there have been so many instances of further substantiation of stories that originally seemed unbelievable, and also because it seems to me that for the most part, the people here are in the business of talking about what really happened, rather than the official version of events. Why are you of the opinion, Anthony, that the whole thing might be a fabrication? It reminds me of CPG wanting concrete proof of the road accident in India and Jagdeo's misdemeanours. Livia

Subject: To Livia From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 00:20:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Livia, I wasn't suggesting anything was a fabrication, only saying I'd never found any evidence particularly relating to blondes. Now you've furnished me with some, which is quite convincing. I have no problem at all accepting what you say. Thanks for telling me. Anthony

Subject: Re: To Anthony From: Livia To: Anthony Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 08:08:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Anthony, thanks for your response. I just found it slightly odd that you should be suspicious, that was all. Maybe I'm too quick to believe reports, but I remember once hearing something about a politician - it was second-hand info, unsubstantiated etc, but had the ring of reality to it - to me. I mentioned it to a couple of friends and they found it hard to believe. Years later it all came out officially and turned out to be just as I had heard it. As someone said above, Dettmers' reports just seem to have the ring of truth about them; why should he lie? He stood to lose a hell of a lot of friends by coming out with what he did - but he has stood by it and there has been no official denial of it from anyone, and no attempts to sue. I think we just believed that M was superhuman and had impeccable integrity for just a bit too long. Best to you, Livia

Subject: politicians From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 09:25:07 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Livia re the second-hand story about a politician. Might this be the story about two Tory cabinet members? Er when they were in power that is? xoxo Thorin

Subject: Re: politicians From: Livia To: Thorin Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 13:08:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin! It was about Michael Portillo! And seriously, no one believed me at the time. And it was also about John Major and the catering manager Claire Latimer - and nobody believed that either. People still don't. Livia

Subject: July 19 1966 From: bill To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 19:26:35 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This is the date all those glorious years ago when shri hens fell in the shower, hit his head, and died. Prem, the son who thought he was god, I mean yes he thought he was god, but first thought his dad was god, views july 19 as a big day in his life. No telling what he thinks this year, but he does notice the day and gives it at least a passing thought. It probably is the day of the year when he has in the past reflected on how his own lordship is proceeding. Put on the crown, slipped into a mala naked, cognac in hand, flute in the other, 'dance dance dance' playing on the speakers --- -- reminds me of a movie clip I saw tonight, just a couple minutes long, but it was Tom Hanks, floating on a makeshift raft made out of shipping trunks, adrift at sea, the ship had sunk, there was an unconcious girl sleeping on the raft, he found supplies in one of the trunks, a radio worked, a song was on, and so he started to dance. Our lord's ship has sunk, the raft is small, but hey, it IS July 19, dance dance dance IS a toe tapper, I bet he did a spastic dance like tom hanks.

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: Jethro To: bill Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 22:25:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was facinated by all that stuff. I heard m talk about it and heard how during the period from July 19th -July 31st, that voice came to him 3 times telling him that he was the one to continue. Also, how he told everyone to stop crying and that 'Don't you realise that guru maharaj ji never leaves you'. After his 25th anniversary-in-the-west thing(I was still a premie then in 1996), he said in an interview that when his dad died he cried for 3 days. I found this a bit disconcerting as I had read every publication by DLM and Elan Vital where he said the opposite.....now he was coming over a normal human being???? .....this was probably one of my first drips. I probably told myself that this was a test or lila or some other excuse. I am not sure how prempal lives with himself, knowing that he has lived completely off the backs of others. He must have some humanness left somewhere...mustn't he? ......His silence is staggering and speaks volumes. I expect he is still lord in his own world.

Subject: the 25th anniversary From: janet To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:42:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how odd. i should have remembered being there, but i don't. was it held in long beach? or somewhere else?

Subject: Re: the 25th anniversary From: Jethro To: janet Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:12:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wasn't there but I have a copy somewhwere of the newspaper produced for it.

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: Vicki To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 06:16:45 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I never heard about Shri Hans slipping in the shower. Infact, not that long ago, in the past couple of years, Maharaji talked about that final day, saying that Shri Hans woke and wasn't feeling so good. He told Mahatmas, maids, whoever, to go and prepare his meditation room. Shri Hans toddled in, sat in cross legged pose and quietly passed from this world. No one knew when he had because that would have meant peeking into his room. Eventually somebody had to and there he was, perfect meditation pose but no longer in his body. And the rest is history, or is it?

Subject: The soap/shower story is bullshit From: Observer To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 13:54:41 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Repeated by Bill and has as much substance as his previous DNA story. The fact that anyone swallowed it tells you a lot. If you want to believe 'the worst,' true or not, that's all you'll see. Good for those who question this sort of nonsense.

Subject: I agree From: Jethro To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:32:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: questioning is good. So do you believe that Hans was saved from drowning bu a giant hand that pulled him out of a river? Do you believe that mataji had a dream about hans and when she woke she drewhim and gave the picture to herfather who recognised hans when he gave a satsang program, approached hans and told him of the dream, after which hans married her? Both of these are recorded in official DLM publications. Do you believe them? I'm just curious, I certainly did for many many years.

Subject: Re: I agree From: Observer To: Jethro Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 00:21:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Jethro, You asked, so... 'So do you believe that Hans was saved from drowning bu a giant hand that pulled him out of a river?' That could mean anything. As an allegory, sure. Not a stretch. Literally, I have no idea. 'Do you believe that mataji had a dream about hans and when she woke she drewhim and gave the picture to herfather who recognised hans when he gave a satsang program, approached hans and told him of the dream, after which hans married her?' Again, I wasn't there. Doesn't sound that implausible at all, though I wouldn't stake any decisions on Earth by it. I've had dreams that morphed into real life in unusual ways as well and vice-versa. You'd be well advised to discern between various people's versions of reality and what means something to you. The real stuff isn't subject to versions, if you're actually tasting it and not just theorizing about it. You know what both of these stories have in common? They're not my story, which by nature is the one I'm most concerned about. Nor are they yours. 'Both of these are recorded in official DLM publications.' I have never made a single meaningful decision in my life based on a magazine or newspaper, 'divine' or otherwise. Nor would I on flaky Internet gossip. Very thin ice you're skating on there. And I've been embarrased at different times by things that have been published in the name of Maharaji. So, apparently, has he. 'Official DLM' anything has always been an object of well-earned, naturally protective and light-hearted derision/suspicion by me and many others I know. Did you aspire to be an Organization Man? I know I didn't. The same people you now listen to as if they were Polyester Prophets were the most guilty of being in BOD-Consciousness, Boring Operational Drones. I'd just as soon believe some guy on a late-night marketing sales pitch for fake hair or greaseless grills. On the other hand, I've previously asked two real people I've known for years on this planet, Charananand and Sampurananand, whose word is far more reliable than the 'I heard' sources on this page, and who were there at the time, about this subject and Hans' death had nothing to do with showers or soap. That is pure, unadulterated, low-rent, cruddy ex-premie invention, as are so many other items on this page, it wouldn't be worth the time to catalogue them. I don't know why you, personally, believe this shit, but my up close and personal experience tells me wayyyy otherwise. I believe what I see with my eyes, hear with my ears and feel with my heart and guts. The rest is gossipy twaddle. Do you really want to be a twaddle peddler, Jethro? Or worse, a third-hand gossipy twaddle peddler? Just curious.

Subject: Re: I agree From: Jethro To: Observer Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 22:49:01 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a point about myself. I became an ex-premie before I heard about the 'scandals'. So whether I believe in them or not makes no difference to my own stand. How Hans died, really doesn't make that much difference to me. I just want to know how far the revisionism goes and how early on we were lied to. Burning magazines and destroying videos.....come on Obsrever, what was that? 'On the other hand, I've previously asked two real people I've known for years on this planet, Charananand and Sampurananand,..' I also have been with these people both in public and in private. Charanand was very different in private and was ceratinly no saint as many would have us believe. As for Sampuranand, I also spent time with him in India and know that he worked really hard and was totally dedicated to Prem. When I was there in Maharoli, he treated us 'Westerners' really well. I just didn't like the way he treated the Indian ashramees and also the way he hit and shouted atIndians in the darshan line. Bye

Subject: an answer Jethro From: you won't get To: Jethro Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 04:01:39 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: when will you realise that premies are unable to give an honest answer. Jethro's very old friend who wouldn't dare put her name up here by the way congratulations of getting hitched

Subject: illiterate twit is trying to say either From: you won't get what this To: you won't get Date Posted: Tues, Jul 23, 2002 at 04:17:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: these new recruits are the dumbest bunch of morons yet! Why not learn to write Engleesh first huh?

Subject: Re: The soap/shower story is bullshit From: Thorin To: Observer Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:11:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Observer, you said Good for those who question this sort of nonsense Oh yes I did question all sorts of nonsense and only one conclusion was apparent. Have you, deep down, posed some serious questions? Just wondering? cheers Thorin

Subject: Re: July 19 1966 From: janet To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 10:46:10 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that version you heard is lifted straight out of the life of Hans's guru. it didnt happen to Hans, but they recycled it for him, since it sounded so good. you can look for it on EPO in the indian history section. curious for my own sake: how did we learn of the soap in the shower, anyway? who told it? how did it come out? i wonder when prempal found out?

Subject: yes and it continued to say From: Jethro To: Vicki Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 06:48:17 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: that they put his body upright in the car so that the premies wouldn't know immediately that he died. They would just think he was meditating. I don't know about the slipping on the soap thing. Anyone??

Subject: So was it Soap or Samadhi??? From: La-ex To: Jethro Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:13:37 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, that is quite a large difference, isn't it? Of course, we were all fed the 'Samadhi' version for decades where the great yogi shri hans left the world in 'perfect peace'. Now we have the 'alternate' story.....the 'Soap' version, in which he falls on a bar of soap in the shower and hits his head and dies..... So which is it?......Soap or Samadhi? And how about the subsequent 2 weeks or so, where M was: 1-crying all day, or 2-hearing mysterious voices telling him he was 'the one', or 3-poclaiming himself the new 'satguru', whle mahatmas representing different factions battled it out in the porverbial 'smoke filled room' in the ashram, each trying to get their guy to be the next satguru...(Candidates were: prempal,satpal,mataji,or just promote the whole thing as a sort of 'yoga brothrhood' type of deal, with rotating 'heads' from time to time (Prof. Tandons idea?)) Has this 'succession' thing ever been put in it's own category on epo, with all of the dfferent versions addressed? Wouldn't it be interesting to ask M to give his 'final answer' to the whole thing?

Subject: It had to be soap.... From: PatD To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:37:58 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....what a lila.

Subject: succession From: Livia To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 14:29:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I go for number 3. No proof, but it just seems the most likely, somehow. But there's no way of knowing unless someone who was actually there is prepared to come forward and relate the actual truth rather than the official version. Livia

Subject: I heard that the one witness From: Jethro To: Livia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 19:38:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: was run over by a little podgy kid with a bumfluff mousetache and then some other geezer took the fall.(this is a joke......probably) Still within his own cult prem has made the lineage thing irreleveant. Prem says 'Don't tell me what I said yesterday'.

Subject: BS with a Buzz (The graying of premies) From: La-ex To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 21:58:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: After attending a party with about 70-80 people, about 20 premies in attendance, I had the following ruminations about premies and PayPal Rawat..... Most premies are from the 'old days' having received knowledge during the waves of propagation in the 70's...... They are getting old, and most of them looked pretty well shop worn, and worse than a lot of other people I know who are the same age.... Most of them were not in good physical condition, have had troublesome lives and kids, and have neglected taking care of themselves in the emotional/psychological realm, while running all over the globe for decades following Rawat and Co., and dabbling in assorted 'new age' schemes that always seem to peter out after a few months or so... The men looked bald or gray, out of shape and there certainly weren't too many over-achievers present. The women looked old for their age, and most had been through a number of strange, drawn out relationships, with kids from many different relationships and involvements... A rag-tag group, if I ever saw one.... Although I was glad to see a few old acquaintances, I was so relieved to not count myself as one of them anymore. The premie presence brought up that old line from the C,S& N classic 'Suite:Judy Blue Eyes', in which Steven Stills sings 'You are living a reality I left years ago. It quite nearly killed me'....so true, at least for me.... A few things seemed to stick out: 1-M is talked about sparingly, and only amongst people who are considered to be practicing premies. 2-Nothing is said of any value about M or K, in stark contrast to the old days when premies were dying to speak the glories of the perfect one....even if they were full of spiritual concepts back then, at least there was a tangible enthusiasm, as compared with now, which seems somber. 3-Very little, if anything is shared, except when the next program might be, with a pathetic little smile acknowledging how 'beautiful' it will be...sorry, but I'd rather have my bliss here and now within myself than wait for the corpulent one's next visit to partake...come to think of it, wasn't it always supposed to be here and now and within me? Hmmm....How and when did that simple idea get hijacked by a fat guy on stage waddling around with flowers and a flute he can't even play, pretending he's Krishna? 4-Most of the premies looked old and worn out, and hardly any kind of 'bliss billboard' or 'walking advertisement' for knowledge, which M likes to say they are, although they are not supposed to talk about it, for fear of blowing it when they get those 'warm, fuzzy feelings'.... 5-None of the remaining premies wants to turn over any rocks to discover any scandals....the concept of 'mind' is still relevant, and the epo type allegations are not wanted....most of them seemed like they just wanted to keep the good old premie belief system, and get the occassional buzz once or twice a year, and leave it at that... 6-I think that the recent 'propagation effort' of the last few years has left many doubts in the minds of premies, mainly because it went absolutely nowhere...actually things have gotten worse, and premies don't like to talk too much about it, but just silently wait for the next darshan fix.. This led me to wonder....what, exactly is left? Certainly not satsang, except M's.... videos are so boring and predictable, and no new person can fathom why premies keep going back for more each week... Certainly not service, except in preparation for an 'M' visit... Premies can give money, but I have found more and more premies getting reluctant to shell out their hard earned cash for nothing in return.... Meditation? Most premies I know don't do it regularly and don't have any extraordinary experiences with it... Changing the world? What a joke! Waiting for the new direction? None that I can see, except for M going around in circles in denial. What I think premies have is BS (Belief System) with a Buzz. They still get a buzz when seeing M on stage. Coupled with the premie belief system (which is amazingly intact but not acknowledged in so many premies, until you talk with them for awhile), it gets a lot of them through the night. A buzz with a belief system. A belief system with a buzz. Incorporated within that belief system is the belief that you can never have these experiences without M.... You need him, and are lost without him. He alone can give you what you ultimately need. When I left M, I realized that he was actually preventing me from having the life I wanted, although he had guilt tripped me into believing that I needed him more.... What a relief to leave...

Subject: the song is 'You don't have to cry' From: minor correction To: La-ex Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 11:31:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: not 'suite: judy blue eyes'. aside from that, your observations parallel mine at the final program i walked away from, in santa monica in april of 2000. i wonder--did we use up our ration of energy too early in life, doing all that stuff as early devotees, and burn out before our time? could that explain the washed out look of premies today? do normal people conserve that, by not knocking themselves out trying to convince themselves and everybody else of some hyped up beleif? janet

Subject: It goes with the territory From: Brian Smith To: minor correction Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 12:06:54 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Someone once said, 'Youth is too good a thing to be wasted on the young' I know that when I was younger I had an incredible amount of energy, but no real direction. Oh I eventually got a grip on it and made good of myself, but the typical dilemma of being young and impressionable is what to do with ones life. What probably hooked me into the cult in my youth was that here was a cause that I could focus on. Here was something profound and good, a higher calling if you will one that I could support my entire lifetime. If energy is allocated over a lifetime I hate to think that I blew such a big wad of my energy on the cult. There are far better causes to be committed to in this lifetime than feeding the ego and lining the pockets of a false guru. The problem with getting older is that I now have plenty of direction but much less energy to fund my projects and commitments. Not to mention the health challenges, aches and pains that go with the territory of age, I am in my mid fifties now and I am beginning to see my share of them. Brian who still has a full head of hair and it's only 10% grey, feeling a little more energetic today

Subject: Right On! From: Brian Smith To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 13:19:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The last couple of years when I was active the cult (I exited 2001) I observed many of the same similarities you pointed out in your post. The once light, enthusiastic and joyful energy around the whole prem paypal rawat movement has digressed into a subdued and heavy secretive vibe. Where the satsang rooms were once brimming with the evenings declarations of love and enlightenment (albiet somewhat misguided) this phenomnena at least was an energizing and unifying factor. In contrast the evenings video events of today now commence anticlimatically and people file out zombie like glassy eyed with an auru of deadened resignation about them. Nobody goes anymore, except for the same old, same old and maybe once in a while a stray aspirant but that is not enough evidence to warrant anything special is going on. As my grandfather used to say 'even an old and tired hog rutting around in the muck will root up an acorn every now and then' If this was all that it was supposed to be as they said it was back when, where are all of the people? where is the joy? where is the love? Any fence sitting premie only need to go to one of these things either local or otherwise to come to the same conclusion. The supporting people left are hanging on to a desparate illusion, an illusion that has not now nor never will come to fruition. many are so deeply invested in it they can never let it go and get off it. It was a fine dream to dream while it lasted but the time has come to face reality and admit that the rawat just cannot pull this LOTU, bring peace to the world, guru, master thing off. Not at all like the promise of the peace bomb, the revealer of truth, the perfect master, keeper of the perfect knowledge etc. Brian who is thankful for the wisdom that I have gained through the years that allowed me to see the way out

Subject: Re: Right On! From: Richard To: Brian Smith Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 13:56:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Right on brother, right on! Power to the people! Those video snooze-sang gatherings are somber and devoid of the humanity that drew us in. What can possibly be the attraction other than catching the mahabuzz as LA-ex puts it so well. A friend, who was actually seeking a teacher/master, came to one of the introductory videos and was intrigued. She tried to attend a non-intro night and was told it was for PWK only. She smelled secrecy and cultishness and just walked. As she so aptly put it 'What do they have to hide?' Good to see your words of wisdom here, Brian. The Class of 2001 is doing great and I hope you are doing well yourself. Richard

Subject: How to restore your hair From: Disculta To: Richard Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 11:27:22 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello friends, I have been wondering why my hair is still such a good color after 50, and now I realize it's because I left the cult 18 years ago. Maybe we could market this to premies! Who cares about the LOTU if you can restore your hair? love Disculta-popping-in-a-bit-nervously-after-long-hiatus

Subject: Re: BS with a Buzz (The graying of premies) From: Vicki To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 09:55:36 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Brilliant post. Very succint and on point. It leads me to believe we weren't/aren't "premies" but paying customers. At least people like that Anthony Robbin's character are upfront about it. Maharaji sells knowledge while claiming it's free, then keeps charging for it via devotion, participation and donations. When his customer base dries up, he uses premies to seek out more, revising and honing the come on lines, revising and honing the background history. But what a deal! Less premies to manage with bigger incomes. Yep, come to think of it, Leader's magazine was a brilliant move for what he wants.

Subject: But la-ex........ From: The Falcon To: La-ex Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 01:29:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you know that PHASE 2 is just about to happen and then the lion really will get to shag the lamb (or something). O ye of little faith! Joking aside the above is a good post and I have to agree when I look at my premie friends, most have now left but some remain, tired and disillusioned but feeling 'special'and always ready for the 'drug' of choice- a programme. Personally it is great to be back in the 'maelstrom of seething humanity' and not feeling one of the chosen ones. That is the biggest hook that Maharaji uses. all the best

Subject: Forget discernment... [nt] From: Neville To: Not GreyetDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 03:04:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: What a load of bollox From: hamzen To: Not GreyetDoc Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 02:58:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You believe nothing my arse. For a start off you believe auto-k is special, and you believe the prawn is special, jeezus you couldn't have 2 bigger belief systems for a start, and start scratching and we'd see you're riddled with them Reality, what a joke..

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: Nik W To: The Falcon Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:20:53 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi La-Ex, Your post is a bit like a 'foreign report' for me - I haven't seen premies in a group since 1978, so your descriptions are quite exotic to me. Reading other's reactions helped me see how 'peculiar' my own first reading was, so on the grounds that this is from someone whose been in purdah for 25 years I've got this speculative comment. -- Having been losing hair for a decade and what remains is becoming devoid of pigment - I can take with amusement, the shared onset of decrepitude that affects us all. However, hair loss, greying and a spreading waistline are minor challenges to ones state of being; my perspective is formed by having had a chronic health impairment for over 15 years and I don't think that this early 'decrepitude' can be laid at the door of Rawat or my involvement with DLM. Of course from certain Psychoanalytic and Psychotherapeutic view points all physical ailments have their roots in the psyche - to which my answer is - Would Freud have considered he had developed a conflicted Id, if one kneed him in the groin ? I suspect not. I think that there is a 'problem' with making a critique of any group of people on the basis of their apparent physical, emotional or intellectual state - the important question is not, I would suggest, What have they achieved ? but How have they survived ? That large numbers of premies have led problematic, chaotic and low achieving lives, is not surprising - the very nature of what DLM offered in the early 70s attracted a large number of damaged, unstable and confused people, they (we ?) inevitably led damaged, unstable and confused lives - unless some amelioration of their (our ?) internal difficulties, was achieved. That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. As I've said in a previous thread - for me K and DLM provided an anaesthetic, having lived the last third of my life with constant physical pain I have an acute awareness of the need one can have for anaesthesia. Did Rawat or DLM offer a life free of pain ? Was enlightenment to include freedom from physical discomfort and mental anguish ? I genuinely don't know now what was being offered - I took the anaesthetic and the straight jacket that K and DLM offered me, it killed the psychological pain of my early life and provided a safe place to be. Of course all of that is relative - there may have been better choices for me to make, better places to grow up, better everything but I have never in the intervening 30 years been able to divine what sources of better that were available to me. The deal however with anaesthetics is that they tend to be addictive, a craving remains long after their usefulness has passed. That a lot of older premies may have the demeanour of long term Prozac users is perhaps not surprising, because the impetus to keeping taking the medicine is the same. Being old, grey and unlovely only increases the for, as someone said above - the need for the drug of choice. I vote addiction to be added to the cohort of predisposing psycholgical states,endemic amongst premies. Nik Nik

Subject: M's liability From: Nottm Bunny To: Nik W Date Posted: Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 15:09:49 (PDT) Email Address: NottmBunny@aol.com Message: Hi Nik, Of course the blame for low achievement cannot be completely laid at Maharaji's feet when you consider the starting point of many of those/us who got sucked in. However, the point at which many premies are at now is a sad reflection on the promise inherent in his precious gift 'where one spark of this knowledge lands it will make it perfect'. I feel strongly that had he only spoken the word, such was his influence, many of those lives could have been improved considerably. Saddest of all is the substantial contribution to mankind that we could have made collectively and that was sacrificed to his growing greed for luxury and power. My God, when I think of the difference we thought we were going to make to the world! The articles from the early seventies recently published on EPO were very poignant in this regard. Bunny, who escaped after many, many years with youthful dreams and enthusiasm intact - and some time left to realise them.

Subject: Re: M's liability From: NikW To: Nottm Bunny Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:44:02 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi NB, Yes absolutly. Let's just say I have some 'issues'(deliberate use of psychobabble !) with responsibility, culpability and blame. Glad the dreams and enthusiasm are intact, and I hope you've found some rewarding and deserving place to nurture them. Nik

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: PatD To: Nik W Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 18:16:18 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. I got into the Bollixshwar world out of curiosity not distress...that came later & as a consequence,so I can't answer your question from a personal perspective.We're on opposite sides of the looking glass. It's an ill wind though,& I'm pleased that you took the money(so to speak)& ran. Maybe you could tell us how you did it.

Subject: Re: Greying and Easing the Way From: NikW To: PatD Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 02:36:19 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That K, DLM/EV and Rawat did not provide an absolute cure for psychological distress is an obvious truth; a more difficult question is whether any aspect of K, DLM/EV or Rawat provided amelioration of the psychological distress of premies. I got into the Bollixshwar world out of curiosity not distress...that came later & as a consequence,so I can't answer your question from a personal perspective.We're on opposite sides of the looking glass. It's an ill wind though,& I'm pleased that you took the money(so to speak)& ran. Maybe you could tell us how you did it. --- Hi Pat, A full answer to your question would be rather long and I'm not sure I have the confidence to attempt that just now. The short answer is 'I haven't done it'. It is true that I haven't paid my Guru Tax in over twenty years, but that makes me a bad premie not an ex premie. I have lived much of the intervening years with an internal commitment to K and to (my image of him) M. In a recent thread here somone saliently observed that Exiting was a process not an end - in my case the process has been somewhat ossified. It might be said that I exited 25 years ago, I just haven't realised it yet ! (wry grin) Thanks for asking though. Nik

Subject: Residual Belief in GMJ From: PatD To: NikW Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 12:59:08 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been convinced for ages that there must be many thousands of people,once initiated,who now & then wake up in the middle of the night thinking,'shit,have I blown it infinity wise because I never really got it together with the Incarnation'..... I sometimes wonder about the value of this forum...then someone like you comes along to prove that the value is inestimable. All the best.

Subject: Summat to read from R Steiner(1910) From: Bryn To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 14:23:24 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The ancient Oriental entered into his dream-like thinking more from the rhythmic life of feeling than does the man of the present age. The Oriental experienced for this reason more of the rhythmic weaving in his life of thought, while the Westerner experiences more of the logical indications. In ascending to super-sensible vision, the Oriental Yogi interwove conscious breath with conscious thinking, in this way, he laid hold in his breath upon the continuing rhythm of cosmic occurrence. As he breathed, he experienced the world as Self. Upon the rhythmic waves of conscious breath, thought moved through the entire being of man. He experienced how the Divine-Spiritual causes the spirit-filled breath to stream continuously into man, and how man thus becomes a living soul. The man of the present age must seek his supersensible knowledge in a different way. He cannot unite his thinking with the breath. Through meditation, he must lift his thinking out of the life of logic to vision. In vision, however, thought weaves in a spirit element or music and picture. It is released from the breath and woven together with the spiritual in the world. The Self is now experienced, not in connection with the breath in the single human being, but in the environing world of spirit. The Eastern man once experienced the world in himself, and in his spiritual life today he has the echo of this. The Western man stands at the beginning of his experience, and is on the way to find himself in the world. If the Western man should wish to become a Yogi, he would have to become a refined egoist, for Nature has already given him the feeling of the Self. which the Oriental had only in a dream-like way. If the Yogi had sought for himself in the world as the Western man must do, he would have led his dream-like thinking into unconscious sleep, and would have been psychically drowned

Subject: Re: Summat to read from R Steiner(1910) From: PatD To: Bryn Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 16:55:28 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Christ! I keep forgetting that the new age mumbo jumbo has a long pedigree. Madame Blavatsky,Krishnamurti,Yogananda,Aleister Crowley... & now this load of old bollocks which makes as much sense as 'merrily,merrily,merrily,merrily,life is but a dream'. Here's an extract from a writer whose understanding of the relationship between East & West appeals to me much more: Er petticoat was yaller an er little cap was green, An er name was Supi-yaw-lat --- -jes the same as Theebaw's Queen, An I seed her first a-smokin of a whackin white cheroot, An a wastin Christian kisses on an eathen idol's foot: Bloomin idol made o mud What they called the Great Gawd Budd Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed er where she stud! On the road to Mandalay.... Rudyard Kipling.

Subject: More Kipling From: JohnT To: PatD Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 00:48:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nice one, PatD. Here's some more no-nonsense from Kipling, from We and They. All good people agree, And all good people say, All nice people, like us, are We And everyone else is They: But if you cross over the sea, Instead of over the way, You may end by (think of it!) looking on We As only a sort of They!

Subject: One man's mumbo jumbo... From: Loaf To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 22:43:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ... is another man's fitted kitchen' Loaf 2002

Subject: Another Kipling Gem.. From: Anthony To: Loaf Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 02:34:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'We're poor little lambs who've lost our way, Baa! Baa! Baa! We're little black sheep who've gone astray...' etc. Many people know the Whiffenpoof Song, which was a favourite of air-crew in WW2, and featured in the Cary Grant film 'Monkey Business' before it. How many know that the original was written by Kipling? 'Gentlemen Rankers' talks of soldiers who were originally officers, endured a fall, and are now forced to serve in the ranks with the hoi polloi, comparing their illustrious past with their present shame.. Anthony

Subject: Fine, fine....I liked it! From: Bryn To: Anthony Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 11:13:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought it was 'insightful'. Wont be doing that again in a hurry! Love Bryn

Subject: Re: Fine, fine....I liked it! From: Thorin To: Bryn Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 12:17:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Bryn Between you and me I also liked it. The quote from Rudolf Steiner does raise, in my mind, some significant questions on cultural differences between the east and the west. Questions that relate to how one approaches meditation (or whatever form of centering one chooses). I guess the stereotype of the western culture is rationality and eastern culture of, as Steiner says, dream like thinking - perhaps of irrationality. I don't think the dividing line is as simple as these stereotypes but there is some merit in, perhaps, exploring this aspect and how this relates to the export of Maharajism to the west and our reaction to it. I do think that the need to be rationale has led to the mass exodus from the cult in the west whearas, by all accounts, pwks in India (and Malayasia etc) are not so troubled by the various disclosures that have been made about Maharaji in recent years. After all, in India, there is a strong historical tradition of following Guru's and part of the overall Hindu theology. However back to Steiner, I have not read any of his stuff for many years but did find then, and confirmed in the quote you gave, that he tended to adapt a slightly idiosyncratic way of writing and often coined some bizzare sounding stuff - like 'conscious breath'. Defies rationale analysis but yet does point to something intrinsic. Like what is it that moves somebody emotionally and, perhaps spiritually, when seeing a beautiful flower or listening to a great piece of music? Perhaps even meditation? Talking about meditation - several months ago someone posted a great piece from some Rinpoche fella and his approach to meditation. The piece was so beautifully put, gave very clear guidance and was absent all mumbo jumbo of perfect masters, devotion and the attached BS. Pity I did not save that post. all the best Thorin

Subject: Steiner, Jung et al From: moldy oldie To: Thorin Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 14:58:21 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there The thing to remember about Steiner is that he wrote in German and that the translations of his work into English make his writings come across as cumbersome and heavy. I have been told that it sounds better in the original. Also its worth mentioning that Steiner and his contempories including Jung Eagner and an earlier generation of German philosophers in the mid 1800s are the true pioneers of the new age and not Californians. They rejected christianity and tried to rediscover their ancient pagan religion of Wodanism and in the process got into spirituality, meditation, nature and sex. Unfortunately for them drugs and rock and roll had not yet appeared on the scene. I read a fascinating book about all this called the Jung cult. It turns out that the goal of Jungian therapy is to achieve a state called individuation and the only person who has achieved this lofty state is Jung himself. Sound familiar anyone? Bye

Subject: Re: Steiner, Jung et al From: PatD To: moldy oldie Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:48:59 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks,I never knew that. Weren't the Hindu holy books like the Upanishads & the Gita translated by Germans at the beginning of the 19thC,then from German into English? I always wondered why the nazis chose the swastika as their symbol,it seemed so obscure,but maybe it wasn't after all(if you lived in Germany)

Subject: Re: Steiner, Jung et al From: NikW To: moldy oldie Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 16:40:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi moldy >It turns out that the goal of Jungian therapy is to achieve a state called individuation and the only person who has achieved this lofty state is Jung himself. Sound familiar anyone? < Yes, but Jung provided a basis for understanding human distress and ways of addressing that distress without any requirement for a personality cult or a demand for perfection. Was Jung perfect ? No ! Is psychotherapy perfect ? No ! but it does offer a means by which individuals who are in psychological distress, can be helped toward a psychologically healthier state. Of course Jung's work should be challenged, but on the basis of providing something better - not on the basis that the man was another fallible human who was overly lauded by some of his supporters. Oh I admit it I like Jung OK ! Symbolically Nik

Subject: Very useful utilities/PC (OT) From: Jean-Michel To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:58:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A couple of very useful utilities if you're using a PC: 1/ Outlook Express Backup, available at: http://www.genie-soft.com/default.html Backup all your data, if your an Outlook Express user (emails, newsgroups etc), on any support. My advice: make the backup file on your hardrive, and THEN copy it on your backup media - ZIP or CD. 2/ CacheX, available at: http://www.mwso.com Manage your browser's cache (MSIE or Netscape), delete old files and folders, etc 3/ 95 System Backup, if you're a Win 95/98 user: http://www.genie-soft.com/default.html Enables you to restore your configuration if your system crashes and you if have to reinstall windows (which usually happens once or twice a year). Don't forget to make a copy of your backup on a removable support.

Subject: Cehck your system's security (ot) From: Jean-Michel To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 06:43:42 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: or not so OT. Check your system's (and firewall's) security at: PCFlank.com Looks like my new firewall is excellent ...

Subject: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:02:15 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Help! I started reading a post last night about Maharaji's upbringing - it said that he was always being hit by his older brothers and that he has said he used to just wish he was somewhere else. I had to leave it halfway through as was going out and now I can't find it anywhere! My computer's being very slow today and I can't possibly trawl through every thread looking for it, so if anyone remembers where it is, could they please tell me, or repost it up here! I can't remember who wrote it or what thread it was in, but I don't think it was very far down. It was extremely interesting and looks as if sheds light on what it must have been like for him as a possibly quite traumatised child - mindboggling because I'd never thought about him in quite that way before. Please, somebody, find it! Livia

Subject: Re: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Crispy To: Livia Date Posted: Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 13:14:13 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey Livia, Also do you remember the stories of how Shri Hans would *lovingly* tap people with his cane to prod them in-line as reminders to practise? And how Mj sponged up this behaviour at age 6 by going around to mahatma's rooms in the wee hours of the morning to tell them to get up and meditate? Also, I just replied to your message to me a week ago re K & morality & killing cats - see la-ex's thread below 'Anyone remember 1978' Cheers, Crispy

Subject: It's OK, I've found it From: Livia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:25:00 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It's OK, I've found it, it was Cynthia's post in the narcissism thread, and very interesting it is too! Love, Livia

Subject: Re: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:17:56 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Livia It was from Cynthia, only a few posts down below. Here is the relevant text with link as above. xoxo Thorin His family was clearly violent and extraordinarily dysfunctional. He was living with Shri Hans who was adored by his nuclear famly and the closest worshippers, along with the masses who adored and deferred exclusively to the Shri Hans. I pity the child Prem who has said that he dodged his violent older brothers who fought constantly and often violently. I would venture to speculate that the father was absent during much of m's early developmental years of childhood (age 1 to 5) which added to the mix of dyfunction within the immediate family which was a setting that was ideal for M's becoming an NPD. Maharaji has said that as a little boy he'd sit in the corner wishing to get out Sibling violence www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=4358.39590318454301

Subject: Re: Maharaji's upbringing post From: Jerry To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:12:52 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Boy, did he ever get revenge! I bet his brothers never dreamed he'd one day be satguru, eh? I wonder what they must have felt when they first got the news... 'Can you believe pop made that little runt the satguru? Boy, are we fucked! There's gotta be some way we can work around this...' Heh,heh,heh. I guess his oldest brother eventually DID, didn't he, when HE became satguru with all rights to DLM. That'll teach the runt to mess with big brother.

Subject: They used to throw BRICKS From: Jean-Michel To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:22:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: at each other when fighting. I remember PR telling the story, to illustrate how bad it used to be with his brothers. Maybe it's printed in a satsang somewhere. y

Subject: Re: They used to throw BRICKS From: Livia To: Jean-Michel Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 11:58:57 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The more you hear about it, the more of a dysfunctional family it seems to be. And given Shri Hans' propensity for beating people with a stick - well, perhaps he used that stick on his family too. From my own observations, siblings aren't usually all that violent towards each other unless someone's being violent towards them. Beyond the normal nip and tuck that goes on with most if not all siblings, children learn actual violence from their parents. I'll never forget a time I was sitting with a father, his 2-year-old son and 1-year-old daughter. The son did something which irritated the father - the father slapped the boy across the face. The bot then immediately turned to his baby sister and slapped her across the face. And once I was in a shop with my son who was then 3. Another boy ran up to him and hit him across the head - for no reason at all except that he was there. The father ran up to the boy, whacked him hard and said: 'Don't hit!' My guess is that those boys were regulalrly hit, with the result that the older ones took it out on the younger ones. Prem, being the youngest, probably came off worst. (I'm beginning to feel quite sorry for him!) Maybe all that explains some of his propensity for bullying. Who knows. Livia

Subject: Re: They used to throw BRICKS From: Thorin To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:18:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now now Livia Don't start on the subject of bullying! See above link. xoxo, Thorin The serial bully www.successunlimited.co.uk/bully/serial.htm

Subject: It was the 30th Anniversay Satsang... From: Cynthia To: Livia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:11:03 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi all, Thanks Livia...I was going to mention the brick-throwing but forgot. When I tried to go back to m after a long hiatus :) I saw a video of the 30th Anniversary Gala satsang in Long Beach (I am 99.5 percent sure it was at Long Beach). I wasn't at the program but I clearly remember him talking a lot about his family, including the brick throwing. How his brothers threw a brick through a the windshield of a very expensive car, which was good because they were aiming at eachother! It was one time he seemed to open up a hair and talk about his real life with Mom and Dad. Then he went on to make his major point which was to distinguish himself from his nuclear family; he so much as said and definitely implied that the whole family wasn't holy implying HE was the only one who was holy. I only feel sorry for the child. Given his behavior after his marriage and becoming a father (which I consider the advent of adulthood) it has always been his responsibility to recognize his behavior. His own behavior. He doesn't seem able to do that. Hmmmmm.... OT: Btw, if you folks decide to discuss this more I'll bow out because I'm very triggered about the child abductions (can't watch any of it on tv--too many newsbreaks). They found a little girl in California, five years old, raped and murdered. Big, big Sigh.... So, I'll just avoid the thread. If I read something that I remember a satsang about I'll pipe in. I've been having panic attacks for a week now--Phew...I'll be okay, it happens sometimes. It's good,very good that the recent abduction stories are being given so much publicity because it's an eye opener and will alert parents not to panic but to get educated and to educate their kids. 100,000 children are abducted by strangers in the U.S. every year. The other 200,000 are by known people, usually a parent in a spousal dispute, etc... So here I am, without children, panicking. I'll get over it:( Love, Cynth

Subject: Bricks, holy family and shri hans From: la-ex To: Cynthia Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 12:30:14 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, I remember the 'brick satsang' at the 30 year anniversary bash...I was there, and m was 'pooh-poohing' the idea of the 'holy family', by saying that at one point in their regular fighting, that a brick had flown through a window, I believe....(my take was that m was trying once again to disown the past by bringing up silly examples that would get a laugh or two, but not venture into anything that had real merit in discussing....however, by bringing up harmless examples like that, he could claim to have 'talked about' those sort of issues, by making light of them...) I think that m also said at that program, sarcastically, about himself, that he used to 'Mr. World Peace', but wasn't anymore.... I took that, later on, to be his excuse for an apology to the premies for leading them on with his 'saviour of mankind' schtick that he used for decades to lighten their wallets and feather his own nest... Does anyone remember the satsang (I think it was at the last Long Beach program in the late 1990's) where m talked about shri hans and his strange ways? M said something about shri hans's strange behavior,(my feeling was that he was saying this in reference to some allegation about shri hans or something....maybe something had been on ep[o at that time...) Anyway, when we returned from a break, the first thing he talked about was that shri hans 'had his ways', but was still amazing nonetheless.... I never knew what he was referring to, but it must have been some negative story that was circulating about his father at the time... It was couched, as usual, in the perspective that shri hans was so far beyond us all in his wisdom and understanding, that mere mortals such as us would never be able to comprehend his 'ways', even if seemingly strange.... As far as bricks go, I would wager that paypal and satpal had an intense sibling rivalry growing up, as evidenced a few years later with the different factions of the family business.....I'd say that one of them threw the brick at the other, with poor bhole ji and raja ji in between.....I'd say maybe it was our very own Paypal, rather than Satpal who probably threw it, looking at the personalities of the two....

Subject: The more you know ,the more... From: PatD To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 18:40:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ....you get pissed off. Throwing bricks at each other & the little shit only mentions it 30 yrs later,when the memory of the holy family has safely faded. Yeah,they saw us coming alright. Now that Bal bhagwanji has evolved into Satpal & has a photo on his website of him with Sonia Ghandi(the builder's daughter from Collegno who married the handsome Air India pilot)& various other potentates,one has to think..........What? The ex 'Lord of the Intellect', wasn't that BBJ's title back in the dim & distant,has put in a stint as Minister for Telecommunications in an Indian Gov. in the '80's. Time heals all wounds,money & power are hand in glove.....there's life in the old firm yet. That's just a guess,not an attempt to construct a conspiracy theory.

Subject: No sympathy for the devil From: Marianne To: PatD Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 21:41:29 (PDT) Email Address: MarianneDB@aol.com Message: I find these stories of the Family Rawat to be very interesting, because they give insight into Rotwat's present and past behavior towards family, and premies. But while his childhood upbringing gives insight into his early psychological make-up, to my mind, it does not excuse his abusive and destructive behavior towards family and premies. This guy claims to have the patent for eternal happiness and permanent peace in this self knowledge crap. He has amassed a multi-million dollar fortune, and all the expensive accoutrements that go along with it. If he really did have the ultimate answer to peace and harmony, why doesn't he practice it with those closest to him? Since he has all this money available, why doesn't he invest it in psychological counselling which will help him to behave consistently with the philosophy that he espouses? As far as I am concerned, his abject failure to use his financial assets to address his own inter-personal short-comings - the product of an abusive, bizarre childhood - says everything about this person. He's perfect. The rest of us are wretches, who can never attain what he has. I'm just glad I saw through this fraud when I did. Marianne

Subject: Bricks stories From: Jean-Michel To: la-ex Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 13:03:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've heard it 1st time during some instructors meeting I guess. That was the context you've very well explained.

Subject: luvly post from symp II From: mahatma ji To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 03:47:12 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a sweet child you are... Re: Re: Chinese Proverbs... -- Cerise Post Reply Top of thread Forum Posted by: Marolyn 07/16/2002, 20:32:27 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Edit Butter wouldn't melt in your mouth I'm sure. I'd LOVE to hear your jokes, I'm sure they are very funny, witty and amusing, just like yourself. I'm a former Instructor for Maharaji. I'm retired now, but I have many happy memories, and He really wasn't so bad, you know. Don't listen to the unhappy ex-students, they don't know what they are talking about. I have a recipie for 'special' brownies that I'm sure you would enjoy. Sincerely, Marolyn Intyre, former instructor, who knows it was never as bad as the false memories of the confused ex-students make it out to be. Uploaded file Modified by Marolyn at Tue, Jul 16, 2002, 21:42:58 Post Reply | Recommend | Alert Where am I? Original Top of thread Previous | Next | Current page Replies to this message Thank you, it's so nice... --- Cerise ( 2002-07-16 21:50 ) My dear... --- Andrea E. ( 2002-07-17 17:05 )

Subject: hmmmmmmm From: moldy oldie To: mahatma ji Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 15:26:38 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marolyn, you would see things that way after all as an instructor you would have had far far more contact with students then M did and in fact you would have been his most effective tool in those pre video days. Of course you don't think he was that bad, if you did you would have to accept your own role in playing around with other peoples lives. Anyway, doctors retire so do plumbers and baseball players. What you did was pure garbage, perhaps you should rather say that you are a reformed instructor like a reformed criminal or alcoholic who promises herself not to do it again. yours grumpily

Subject: It's better... From: Chuck S. To: mahatma ji Date Posted: Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 10:08:46 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ...with photos. with photos... www.anyboard.net/soc/culture/symposium/posts/64.html

Subject: To AV From: Livia To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 09:17:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV, Thorin, Bolly and I are meeting up on Saturday for lunch - any chance you'd like to join us? It'd be brilliant if you could come! Please email me at liviadowte@hotmail.com If you're worried about anonymity at this stage, you can very easily set up a Hotmail account in any name you like - it just takes a few minutes - but you probably know that anyway. Hoping to hear from you... Livia

Subject: Re: To AV From: Anthony To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:25:47 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, You sound such good people I'd like to meet you too. Probably being nosey. Anyway, I think I live about 250 miles away. Best wishes anyway. Anthony

Subject: Re: To AV From: AV To: Livia Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:01:50 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: how kind of u to invite me, I am in a hectic period right now, but will see if I can get away...thank you! AV :)

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: Thorin To: AV Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 04:43:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi AV Sincerely hope you can make it tomorrow. I believe you are in London as well - happy to take you to the meet with Livia and Bolly; it's not too far. Please mail me on thorin@sent.com soon if you are able to get away tomorrow. In any event would be very pleased to receive your emails at any time. (in whatever form or substance you choose). Anthony: Please do email either Livia or me any time. cheers Thorin

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:24:48 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, be great to meet you all....actually I'm trying to free up the weekend, but it's looking very tight. If I miss y'all, have a super time and I'll see yuz soon. x

Subject: Re: To AV & Anthony From: AV To: Thorin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 06:24:33 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Thorin, be great to meet you all....actually I'm trying to free up the weekend, but it's looking very tight. If I miss y'all, have a super time and I'll see yuz soon. x

Subject: I cannot log into Forum 8 From: Francesca To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:14:44 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've tried several times over several days, to submit a name and a password, but it keeps giving me error messages. It actually has the cheek to have me rate software I cannot figure out how to use. There is an option to save a password, but I don't like to have computers save passwords. Gerry, could you possibly post instructions on how to join Forum 8 for people who do not find it intuitive, or perhaps post instructions on Forum 8 itself when someone goes over there. I'm usually not stupid with computers but I find it either malfunctioning or counter-intuitive from my POV, to say the least. Thanks for your assistance. --F

Subject: You are welcomed to... From: Chuck S. To: Francesca Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:31:20 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You're welcomed to give Symposium II a try. I've configured it to be as simple as I could make it. You can post without logging in and choosing a password, but if you login and create a password, it will auto-fill your name in when you post, and you won't have to login again unless your internet connection breaks. 'Login' is different from 'Registration'. Login allows you to pick your name and password, and start posting. Registration is a more complicated process, requiring email authentication, and I've turned that feature off. I wish to keep it simple. On Symposium II I've also set the software to expose multiple aliases, so there will perhaps be less trolling possible (there are ways of getting around this feature, but they are difficult and tiresome :) ). The forum also allows posting of media files such as .jpg, .gif., .mid and .wav files. It could be a lot of fun. ()) I hope you and others will give it a try.

Subject: I will and thanks Chuck! From: Francesca To: Chuck S. Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:34:49 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'll print up your e-mail for starters. xoxoxo F

Subject: and I can't even read it (nt) From: The Falcon To: Francesca Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:33:29 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: F8 is on hold for a while [nt] From: gerry To: The Falcon Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 12:50:11 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Thanks Gerry! From: Francesca To: gerry Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:35:34 (PDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I thought I was really on Mars. Well, on second thought ... maybe ... Oh, nevermind! F

Subject: Slide Shows From: Aisha To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 10:31:52 (PDT) Email Address: nomadpalace@hotmail.com Message: I have two Hans Jayanti slide shows ... does anyone want them 'for the records' ... otherwise I intend throwing them away ... happy to post them within UK. Contact me at hotmail and they are yours.