Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum II Archive # 12 | |
From: Mar 28, 1998 |
To: Apr 4, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 05:39:46 (EST)
Poster: *Vacol* Email: To: *Everyone* Subject: *my response to Jims last outburst* Message: *So lets try to respond to you Jim. Firstly , thanks N.V for informing me of Jims (angry) idiosyncracies. Next, Jim, you seem to think that I can't take your direct, clear, psycho-analytically deserved insights into the psycho dynamics of poor lost premies like myself; but you are wrong.....if it is a battle you want I'll fight you, but instead of dueling I was hoping that we could participate in a more mature debate. Or do you need to compete? Jim, can we not stop the tape and ask ,what is the issue? What are your grievances? Perhaps, we could start there. What exactly do you most dislike about M? What do you most dislike about premies? Do you really want a serious debate? We really don't know each other. It seems pathetic for us to assume we know each other on the basis of you being a so called expremie and me a so called premie. How childish! As if we are a separate species.....as if premies can be summed up as zombies walking around in a devotional haze, with eyes only for M. Or to sum up ex-premies as lost souls who have squandered their chance for salvation. We are both human-beings....but Jim as you have admitted you do have an axe to grind......ok...so tell me about this. What is the problem? Why the axe? I'm not being condescending.....just trying to open a doorway that could lead to a little mutual respect. We surely can agree to disagree without throwing abuse at each other.* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 02:01:20 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Everyone Subject: Life Can't Be Believed! Message: There exists unimaginable peace, and we are made of it. Life is a wonderful miracle and we are the miracle. We can gaze at a wonderous sky of stars and taste a sweet kiss. Love is ours to feel and adore but never understand. Optimism rules! Manifest the best. CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:54:34 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Final Reset Tomorrow Message: Just a reminder that tomorrow morning around 7:00 AM (EST) I'll reset this dog for the last time. Your Forum II link will get you a We've Moved page on Paradise containing the link to Forum III. Anyone wanting to bookmark the URL now can use this one. The new forum is locked right now pending some last minute cleanup. See you all in the morning. Goodnight, Paradise. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:14:58 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: You'll never believe this (re Cameron) Message: Down below Joy mentioned that Charles Cameron, the one-time bard of DLM, the loudmouth, shameless guru huckster, the cockneyed clarion of the Millenium, had a game on the net based on Hesse's Glass Bead Game. I looked it up at: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/mille.html And found that, while Charles still profits from his Maharaji days (doing the Inner Game scam with Gallwey -- why do I say 'scam'? I'll tell you later), he has omitted all references to Maharaji from his bio. In fact, Charles is happy to talk about his various other 'spiritual' forays (see post below) but nary a word of the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Then I looked a little further and found this: King Millenium There's a new millennium rising, and another of HipBone's interests is the fascinating variety of millennial ideas and movements out there in the wide world and on the web. Here you will find HipBone's reviews of millennial sites and sightings, our articles on the Y2K computer problem and other such things. King Millenium Millennium Rules! opens this section of the HipBone site with the cover from a delightful and not particularly apocalyptic children's coloring book -- an advertising piece for Liverpudlian Millennium Flour, ca 1909. The Millenial Computer Bug These contributions to millennial studies zero in on the so-called 'Y2K' computer bug problem as it impacts apocalyptic thinking. Apocalyptic: a hidden dimension to the Y2K problem ... Suggesting that press reports of the apparently 'secular' millennium bug are likely to be read as 'signs of the times' by believers in a variety of religio-political millennial scenarios... Apocalyptic: a hidden dimension II is a second 'take' on the intersection between the 'millenium computer bug' and the apocalyptic mindset. A HipBone prophecy fulfilled? Just a few months after I predicted that millennarian interest would very likely soon incorporate the Y2K bug in End Times scenarios, a computer scientist at a major US academic institution posted the following article entitled Do we all need a very large wakeup call? to a 'prophecy' mailing list on the internet. It offers a clear and well-written description of the Y2K problem, together with his own apocalyptic Christian commentary. Millennium Concentrate Our 'Millennium Concentrate' millenial website reviews are intended as concentrated resources for those who are interested in gaining a wide sense of current apocalyptic / millennial / futurist ideas in short order. The idea is that any single 'MilCon' will contain a manageable smorgasbord of millennial sites, with brief reviews of each. If you expose yourself for ten or fifteen minutes to the first of the sites we review in any one 'MilCon', then return and visit the next site in order, you will visit a sampling of 'intensive' pages which between them present the breadth and diversity of what's going on in one concentrated burst -- rather than poring at random through a hundred too-similar prophecy pages... Millennium Concentrate 1 Millennium Concentrate 2 Millennium Concentrate 3 Millennium Concentrate 4 Millennium Concentrate 5 Millennium Concentrates are also posted to the Talk-2000 mailing list and featured in Ted Daniels' by-subscription-only Millennial Prophecy Report. See also the work of the Center for Millennial Studies, of which I am an Associate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:32:24 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: I read a little further and got righteous angry (Re: You'll never believe this (re Cameron)) Message: So I scrolled through the various Millenium links, including the one to the Washington Post 'Cults' articles, and looked at the Millenial Institute that Charles is an associate of, and I got pissed off. See, I've got this other Millenium program here, the one I was talking about in And it is Divine. And I'm sure Charles is all over this thing. Nothing's signed by individual authors but his glib, casual hyperbole was easy to recognize for us premies. After all, he was the main writer of our little bible, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? So now Charles has gone on to other Millenium's, happily making money off those who want his brand of cheery, inter-cultural newage news. I just think it's a little reprehensible for him to excise this one big, fat Millenium from his past. I really think premies who were high in the organization, and thus influential, have a responsiblity to those they affected. What do you guys think? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:36:33 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: I read a little further and got righteous angry (Re: You'll never believe this (re Cameron)) Message: So I scrolled through the various Millenium links, including the one to the Washington Post 'Cults' articles, and looked at the Millenial Institute that Charles is an associate of, and I got pissed off. See, I've got this other Millenium program here, the one I was talking about in And it is Divine. And I'm sure Charles is all over this thing. Nothing's signed by individual authors but his glib, casual hyperbole was easy to recognize for us premies. After all, he was the main writer of our little bible, Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? So now Charles has gone on to other Millenium's, happily making money off those who want his brand of cheery, inter-cultural newage news. I just think it's a little reprehensible for him to excise this one big, fat Millenium from his past. I really think premies who were high in the organization, and thus influential, have a responsiblity to those they affected. What do you guys think? I suggest you get his e-mail from Joy and talk to him about it. See if he will have a chat with us. Got to say, though, his webpage sounds downright laughable. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:47:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: JW Subject: I thought I'd leave that to you (Re: You'll never believe this (re Cameron)) Message: Hey Joe, Here's his email address: hipbone@earthlink.net I don't want to talk with Charles because I tried that before when I was living in L.A. At the time I looked him up to see what he thought of all the 'changes' happening in the early and mid 80s. I didn't know him then and he was really huffy with me. I'm afraid that I'd be needlessly short with the guy. Why don't you email him? Or maybe Joy would like to plumb the depths of his Maharaji gum pockets. (Sorry. What a terrible metaphor. Yech!). Or maybe someone from over there who knew him in England. Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 23:32:36 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: A trend, anyone? Message: NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- More than three decades after their movement was founded in New York, the Hare Krishnas have come full circle -- from exporting Indian spirituality to the West to using modern Western technology to promote ancient Indian ideas. On Sunday, Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee will open the newest Hare Krishna complex, which includes a temple and a cultural center where robots act out Hindu scriptures. The Hare Krishna movement -- formally known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness -- was founded in New York in the mid-1960s by Srila Prabhupada, an Indian who believed it was his destiny to spread the teachings of the Hindu god Krishna. Today it claims a worldwide membership of more than 3 million. Inside the red-brick cultural center, life-size robots that are mobile from the waist up will act out scenes from the Bhagavad Gita and other ancient Hindu texts. Robot makers from Disneyland and Hollywood were putting the finishing touches this week on the likenesses of gods, scenes from Indian epics and computerized special effects. ``Everything can be used in the service of the lord ... we are living in an age where technology is respected,'' says Gopal Krishna Goswami, spiritual leader of the project. The Hare Krishna movement traces its spiritual lineage to the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna discourses on karma, life after death, life on other planets, and the purpose of life. The teachings are part of most Indians' spiritual upbringing, though Hare Krishnas are followers of a specific guru's teachings. Devotees must incorporate into their daily lives four principles drawn from Hindu religious texts -- compassion, truthfulness, cleanliness and austerity. To uphold those principles, devotees do not eat meat, use tobacco or caffeine, have illicit sex, or gamble. Prabhupada's students once chanted ``hare Krishna'' -- ``hail Krishna'' -- and danced while handing out flowers and religious texts at airports and on street corners. They often attracted ridicule. Followers broke ties with their families, leading parents in the West to accuse Hare Krishnas of being a cult that brainwashes impressionable young people. Today, the spirit of renunciation that was integral to the movement has altered considerably, and most Hare Krishnas hold regular jobs and raise families, said spokesman Madana-Mohana Das. ``We had a stage where we were overzealous ... people were ignorant about us,'' Das said. ``We are getting mature ... acceptance is growing.'' The Hare Krishnas relied entirely on Indian donors to raise the estimated $6 million for the new temple. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:33:24 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Everyone Subject: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: NV or one of them posed a question, are we addicted to posting here? Guess I'll find out. I'm off to Mexico for 5 days. See you when I return. I think I will miss you, but I doubt it's addiction as it is known in relation to herion or alchohol or my nemises. I am looking forward to ocean, sun, and a culture that doesn't give a rat's ass about M or WOK, except to cook Chinese food. Guess the small Mexican villages were never targeted since there wasn't any economy. See ya. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:37:00 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Selena Subject: Re: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: Where you going, Selena? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:49:18 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: nothing too exotic. Puerto Penasco, or Rocky Point as the anglos call it. It does have an amazing bay, the mild temperatures and tides have created lots of estuarys with a huge variety of sea life. and, it's still a sleepy town. Ever been there? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:59:28 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Selena Subject: Re: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: Selena, Exactly where is that? It sounds great. I'm jealous. My hard drive crashed and for a couple of weeks I had no computer. When this happened, apparently someone crashed the forum, so I couldn't even read the archives to see what I missed. I almost had the DTs. (Not really!) Have a terrific time. Official Site Pacifist, VP (International Man of Mystery) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 22:04:28 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: VP Subject: Re: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: Puerto Penasco is on the East side of the Gulf of California. Across from the Baha (or Baja?) penninsula, and south of Arizona, about 100 or maybe less miles into Mexico. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 23:10:31 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Selena Subject: Re: will I handle the withdrawals? Message: nothing too exotic. Puerto Penasco, or Rocky Point as the anglos call it. It does have an amazing bay, the mild temperatures and tides have created lots of estuarys with a huge variety of sea life. and, it's still a sleepy town. Ever been there? No, not even heard of it. Sounds great. Hopefully we'll have this whole Maharaji question all worked out by the time you get back. Take care, Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:04:58 (EST)
Poster: Paula Email: To: Selena Subject: Re: Chinese food and mexican villages (Re: will I handle the withdrawals?) Message: I hope you have a good trip and rest a little bit. Of course, when we travel, we get out of our lives, and that is why you won't have any contact with all this stuff. But.... Latin America is the new M target. And I can tell you there is a lot of premies... and also.... M is going to give a K session in Central America soon. You will be very close from him. I am not telling you that M cares about latins... I am telling you that Latin America is not exactly what you think. By the way.... chinese food made in Mexico is horrible, and take care because they put spice (pepper?) on everything. again, have a nice trip. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:15:15 (EST)
Poster: *Vacol* Email: To: *Everyone* Subject: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: *Jim....it seems you just cannot bear anything positive said about M . You are so blinkered by your own subjective experiences and ideas. It is you who cannot share in a balanced discussion about M. This tends to even more convince me that many ex-premies have an axe to grind, which is fair enough, but cannot accept the notion that others may authentically have experiences and ideas of a very different nature to their own. Out of interest Jim, when was the last time you actually saw and heard M Or saw a recent video...(recent meaning , the last 10 years)?* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:27:34 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: *Vacol* Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: *Jim....it seems you just cannot bear anything positive said about M . You are so blinkered by your own subjective experiences and ideas. It is you who cannot share in a balanced discussion about M. This tends to even more convince me that many ex-premies have an axe to grind, which is fair enough, but cannot accept the notion that others may authentically have experiences and ideas of a very different nature to their own. Out of interest Jim, when was the last time you actually saw and heard M Or saw a recent video...(recent meaning , the last 10 years)?* I have a few recent -- yeah, recent -- videos someone sent me. I sent copies to JW. They include some vapid satsang, a ridiculous aspirant Q & A session done sometime last year and a musical video where his daughter ..... oh I can't even describe it. I am SO hurt that you think I can't share in a 'balanced' discussion about M. Really, you have no idea how that stings. Tell me, Vacol, why do you say that? Is it because I call you on pretending to look at Maharaji while taking a right turn as soon as it gets interesting? Hey, fella, I'm talking. I'm just not saying what you want to hear. What does it take to discuss? A willingness to answer questions responsively, candidly and fully. A willingness to hang in there and think and speak clearly. Hey dude, I've got it -- all fo the ex's here have it -- the premies don't. Remember how in Steppenwolf the price of admission to the Magic Theatre was 'your mind'? Well the price of admission to a proper discussion about your guru is your blind faith. Of course I have an axe to grind. Good work, Sherlocke. Look, if I was in a jury pool and Maharaji was charged with some heinous crime, God forbid, I would NOT be a fair judge of the man. I do, as you so astutely notice, have an axe to grind. So? What's your point? Oh, I see, your point is that that blinds me to others' 'experiences' and ideas. Hey, Vacol, that's what discussion's all about -- different ideas. I'm into it. Are you? REally, all you've done in your 7 posts is parrot a long-time party line that faults premies for everything and Maharaji for not. I'd LOVE to discuss that with you. I promise you, though, you couldn't take it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:41:21 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: *Vacol* Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: *Jim....it seems you just cannot bear anything positive said about M . You are so blinkered by your own subjective experiences and ideas. It is you who cannot share in a balanced discussion about M. This tends to even more convince me that many ex-premies have an axe to grind, which is fair enough, but cannot accept the notion that others may authentically have experiences and ideas of a very different nature to their own. Out of interest Jim, when was the last time you actually saw and heard M Or saw a recent video...(recent meaning , the last 10 years)?* Vacol, for a character profile on 'Jim Heller, the Man', see my many recent posts. I have been observing his activities for a number of months now and the conclusions you draw in your post are certainly valid. (I'd write a book but nobody'd buy it.) I think he has an inferiority complex that forces him to have to prove himself through winning, and he has found a medium he has the chance of winning in. In other words, he desperately needs to win his arguments in this forum at all cost so he can keep the positive self-image it supports. A sad and vulnerable position to be in for Jim. So don't be too hard on the poor guy (unless of course you want to). Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:50:37 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: *Jim....it seems you just cannot bear anything positive said about M . You are so blinkered by your own subjective experiences and ideas. It is you who cannot share in a balanced discussion about M. This tends to even more convince me that many ex-premies have an axe to grind, which is fair enough, but cannot accept the notion that others may authentically have experiences and ideas of a very different nature to their own. Out of interest Jim, when was the last time you actually saw and heard M Or saw a recent video...(recent meaning , the last 10 years)?* I have a few recent -- yeah, recent -- videos someone sent me. I sent copies to JW. They include some vapid satsang, a ridiculous aspirant Q & A session done sometime last year and a musical video where his daughter ..... oh I can't even describe it. I am SO hurt that you think I can't share in a 'balanced' discussion about M. Really, you have no idea how that stings. Tell me, Vacol, why do you say that? Is it because I call you on pretending to look at Maharaji while taking a right turn as soon as it gets interesting? Hey, fella, I'm talking. I'm just not saying what you want to hear. What does it take to discuss? A willingness to answer questions responsively, candidly and fully. A willingness to hang in there and think and speak clearly. Hey dude, I've got it -- all fo the ex's here have it -- the premies don't. Remember how in Steppenwolf the price of admission to the Magic Theatre was 'your mind'? Well the price of admission to a proper discussion about your guru is your blind faith. Of course I have an axe to grind. Good work, Sherlocke. Look, if I was in a jury pool and Maharaji was charged with some heinous crime, God forbid, I would NOT be a fair judge of the man. I do, as you so astutely notice, have an axe to grind. So? What's your point? Oh, I see, your point is that that blinds me to others' 'experiences' and ideas. Hey, Vacol, that's what discussion's all about -- different ideas. I'm into it. Are you? REally, all you've done in your 7 posts is parrot a long-time party line that faults premies for everything and Maharaji for not. I'd LOVE to discuss that with you. I promise you, though, you couldn't take it. Jim, stop with your macho pump and grind bullshit already. It's tiring. Geez, stuff like, '...I'd LOVE to discuss that with you. I promise you, though, you couldn't take it.', gets old. Why don't you just be respectful of others. Then that kindness will be returned by someone other than your in-house cheerleading team. Really Jim, I'm serious. You should see someone to help you sort things out. It can't hurt. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:51:44 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: *Jim....it seems you just cannot bear anything positive said about M . You are so blinkered by your own subjective experiences and ideas. It is you who cannot share in a balanced discussion about M. This tends to even more convince me that many ex-premies have an axe to grind, which is fair enough, but cannot accept the notion that others may authentically have experiences and ideas of a very different nature to their own. Out of interest Jim, when was the last time you actually saw and heard M Or saw a recent video...(recent meaning , the last 10 years)?* Vacol, for a character profile on 'Jim Heller, the Man', see my many recent posts. I have been observing his activities for a number of months now and the conclusions you draw in your post are certainly valid. (I'd write a book but nobody'd buy it.) I think he has an inferiority complex that forces him to have to prove himself through winning, and he has found a medium he has the chance of winning in. In other words, he desperately needs to win his arguments in this forum at all cost so he can keep the positive self-image it supports. A sad and vulnerable position to be in for Jim. So don't be too hard on the poor guy (unless of course you want to). Vacol, for a character profile on 'Jim Heller, the Man', see my many recent posts. I have been observing his activities for a number of months now and the conclusions you draw in your post are certainly valid. (I'd write a book but nobody'd buy it.) I think he has an inferiority complex that forces him to have to prove himself through winning, and he has found a medium he has the chance of winning in. In other words, he desperately needs to win his arguments in this forum at all cost so he can keep the positive self-image it supports. A sad and vulnerable position to be in for Jim. So don't be too hard on the poor guy (unless of course you want to).> NV, Never, in all my years of psychoanalysis have I heard the truth put better. You really have a gift, you know. Now that you've resolved the question of what makes me tick, will you please save yourself from getting distracted in such unnecessary 'ad hominem' matters? Who cares how much or why I want to prove a point? Big red herring, don't you think? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:03:19 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: Jim, stop with your macho pump and grind bullshit already. It's tiring. Geez, stuff like, '...I'd LOVE to discuss that with you. I promise you, though, you couldn't take it.', gets old. Why don't you just be respectful of others. Then that kindness will be returned by someone other than your in-house cheerleading team. Really Jim, I'm serious. You should see someone to help you sort things out. It can't hurt. Thanks for the advice. Respect is earned and you've done anything but earn mine. Sorry, fella, that's kind of personal. I have to tell you, your 'believe' argument to Scott was almost as stupid as Mili's typical garbage. Sorry, NV, that's just the way I see it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:05:56 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: I was aware of the potential ad hominem interpretation you may draw Jim. Just wanted to give Vacol some background so he could better deal with your idiosyncrosies. Hey, just trying to further the discussion. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:11:06 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: Gee, you don't respect me. BTW Can you guess whether you've earned my respect or not? It was just a small but important point I was trying to make to Scott. Don't tell me you didn't get it either! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:14:32 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Re: *RE......Jims weak response to Vacol* Message: Gee, you don't respect me. BTW Can you guess whether you've earned my respect or not? It was just a small but important point I was trying to make to Scott. Don't tell me you didn't get it either! NV, Why in the world would you respect me? Give me a break, man. I am 'in my mind' and 'anti' Maharaji. The one who gives you al that sweet love. No, I don't really look for any respect from you. We're not there yet. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 17:21:23 (EST)
Poster: *Vacol* Email: To: *Everyone* Subject: *My Testimony...7* Message: *This will be my last contribution for a few days. The more I read in this ex-premie site, the more a greater picture emerges for me , but the irony is ....almost the paradox......that what is happening is what I strongly suggest needs to happen........namely, a more participatory and interactive forum for premies and ex-premies,(and anyone else who is interested) . Perhaps an anti-M cyberspace is preferable to a pro-M one , because everyone can feel free to express whatever they want or need to. That's brilliant, almost as if it has been set up that way....perhaps a divinely inspired set up (joke!!). But whether it is a synchronistic doorway to evolutional growth or not, I personally am very grateful for the opportunity this site offers. There is a need to exteriorise thought. As J. Krishnamurti often said...'question everything'. I have found that eventually all the questions evaporate and a silent Knowing occurs effortlessly. Doubts and fears need to be exorcised(as in exorcism), brought out into the open. The way to the Light must involve passing through the land of shadows, the battle must be fought.....the long night of the soul cannot be avoided. Therefore, this site can facilitate this very real and living process. Premies and ex-premies cannot be catagorised into two distinct groups. There are so many variations, but some general remarks can be made. M's own emphasis throughout my 16 years of association with him have always been directed towards K. It is as simple as saying in a thousand differant ways , 'what you are seeking is within you'. But I guess the nature of ignorence being what it is , many respond to the simple power of M's message with a mixture of their own contaminated personal projections, unresolved needs and complexes , together with a growing trust for M. tHIS CAN EXPRESS AS A TYPE OF DISTORTED DEVOTION, that can mislead the less affected. But my final perspective for now is that M is a truly great soul , who's vision, experiment and influence for the good of humanity, and as a catalyst for evolutional growth, far outweigh and negative effects he may incite.* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:44:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: *Vacol* Subject: Vacol jams out!! (Re: *My Testimony...7*) Message: Vacol, No one can be judged without being judged. Once you've conceded M has made mistakes, has some personality flaws and whatnot, you've got to get it all out and balance it against whatever good you think warrants considertion. You've made the right noises to start the process. It does look like you got cold feet just when it gets interesting. And thus, sadly, I have yet more proof that my thesis might be right: premies cannot and will not fairly and thoroughly discuss Maharaji. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:06:29 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Vacol didn't jam out!! (Re: *My Testimony...7*) Message: Vacol, No one can be judged without being judged. Once you've conceded M has made mistakes, has some personality flaws and whatnot, you've got to get it all out and balance it against whatever good you think warrants considertion. You've made the right noises to start the process. It does look like you got cold feet just when it gets interesting. And thus, sadly, I have yet more proof that my thesis might be right: premies cannot and will not fairly and thoroughly discuss Maharaji. You're a piece of work Jim. Vacol's post was a good one, not to mention it wasn't too long. You're always looking for an opportunity to thump your chest and proclaim some hollow victory. May I suggest you look at yourself in the mirror and ask, 'Why is it so bloody important that I win, anyway'. Really, I think you'll find it therapeutic. If you need someone to talk to there are people who can help you sort these things out. Because I don't know if you've noticed or not but nobody cares who's winning this game of yours, except you. But if you must, keep on keeping score dear brother, and I'll keep on enjoying the game. BTW wasn't that you who jammed out on me earlier today? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:16:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: You're right. I'm completely out of control, NV (Re: *My Testimony...7*) Message: NV, Why do you say Vacol's post was 'good'? What did you agree with (other than M's a 'great soul')? As for wanting to win, shoot me. I haven't noticed you conceding too much around here. Did I miss something? No, I never jammed out on you. What are you talking about? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:16:29 (EST)
Poster: Paula Email: To: *Vacol* Subject: Re: *My Testimony...7* Message: Vacol..... there might be a distorted devotion..... but at the same time.... you say M is so great and, in fact, he is as lost as everyone in this earth. he is powerful, maybe because people gave him power. And also.... it is easy to have a great vision of humanity when you sit on a throne and don't have to live common life as everyone do. when you are outside life, to be human seems ridiculous. that is what he does and people laugh as if it was jokes.. and living is not a joke. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 17:20:32 (EST)
Poster: A. Friend Email: friend@psionics.com To: Everyone Subject: Sour Grapes Message: Friends: I never was a premie, however, I followed (yep, FOLLOWED) my (mentor, guru, whatever) for over 23 years until he passed away. He, like myself, was an ordinary American man, extrordinary in his knowledge and understanding of the world. I, was, by virtue of a 'death experience' at the age of 8 years old, an awake, enlightened Amreican punk of nearly 14 when we met. I am sorry that so many of you have the feelings that you have for your (former) guru. I am even more sorry that you use the things that you use to support your bitterness. The thing that we, here in the West, do not and, possiblly, cannot understand - that I learned from my own 'apprenticeship' is that it is as much the ACT of following and subordinating ones own 'ego' to another (hopefully greater - but not necessarily greater) that is responsible for the Spiritual benefits and blessings that come to us all. Maybe you now think that this man (and we are ALL only men and women - should that be an issue?) is a phoney - but in reality, it is your own ego that is the phoney. You came by it purely by accident without any conscious volition of your own. This Mahraji, or whatever his name, gave you a chance to remake yourself consciously. I don't give a damn whether he is just a greedy little punk that wanted to exploit you for his own pleasure. The chance is always the same. I teach my friends (YOU might call them followers)this: You cannot give away that which you do not have. And, you cannot truly have that which you cannot give away. You appear to be clinging to this past of yours. Perhaps it is hung about your necks BECAUSE you have not yet truly OWNED it. Let us face it - Maharji (?) did not decive YOU. Perhaps he deceived HIMSELF - but that is his karma. YOU decieved yourself! Yes, you. And you did it out of a sincere desire to BE FREE. Two monks were walking along a road in a rain-storm. They came upon a beautiful girl trying to cross the muddy road. One of them, walked over and picked the girl up and carried her across the road. They walked on for many miles in silence, the monk who had not touched the lady, obviouly upset. Finally at evening tea, the monk blurted out 'How could you do such a thing? You know we are not supposed to touch women!' To which the other mon replied. 'My dear friend, I left the woman back there on the road - why are you still carrying her?' Why are you still carrying this man/guru/whatever? Victory To God The Beloved! A. Friend Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:12:15 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: A. Friend Subject: Oh my God! A guru himself speaks out! (Re: Sour Grapes) Message: Friend, You are NOT a friend of mine. Please don't call yourself that. You're just a newage clown presumptuous enough to pontificate about that which you know nothing. You really don't know what you're talking about here and I don't know know what you're talknig about here either, because you're talking in newage bubblespeak which is not really meant for communciation. Sepcifics? Please translate into English the following: 1)awake, enlightened Amreican punk of nearly 14. 2)death experience 3)remake yourself consciously 4)You cannot give away that which you do not have. And, you cannot truly have that which you cannot give away. 5) you have not yet truly OWNED it 6)you cannot truly have that which you cannot give away. The fact that jokers like set themselves up as 'teachers' is scary enough. Most of all, it's just pathetic and funny. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:23:34 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Oh my God! A guru himself speaks out! (Re: Sour Grapes) Message: You're just a newage clown presumptuous enough to pontificate about that which you know nothing. Jim, I personally take great offence (as will 0.000001 % of the world population) at your derogatory use of the term 'New Age Clown'. Us New Age Clowns are fiercely proud of the way nature made us and I suggest you apologise to the entire world population of New Age Clowns right now, before I get really mad. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:37:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: Oh my God! A guru himself speaks out! (Re: Sour Grapes) Message: You're just a newage clown presumptuous enough to pontificate about that which you know nothing. Jim, I personally take great offence (as will 0.000001 % of the world population) at your derogatory use of the term 'New Age Clown'. Us New Age Clowns are fiercely proud of the way nature made us and I suggest you apologise to the entire world population of New Age Clowns right now, before I get really mad. I FEEL your anger, Anon, but I am not with it, if you understand (which derives from the words 'underpants' and 'and'-- a concept so few westerners, with their worldly worldliness, are in attunement with). On the other hand, do you FEEL my inner thoughtspace, a place I have created as a sort of ante chamber to the pineal gland which, by the laws of Albert Einstein and Quantum Machanics, is extremely well set out in a number of pretty, new books by Deepak Chopra and Tim Gallwey? See, there, in my THOUGHTSPACE, I am letting your anger grow into flowers of love. God be with you, brother! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:40:48 (EST)
Poster: Paula Email: To: A. Friend Subject: the egocentric friend (Re: Sour Grapes) Message: maybe you are right, but I think you are wrong. You are so sure of what you say, and also... you have all the answers with those little stories. Everytime I see someone that 'knows everything' I feel sick. Sorry, but I am just being sincere. Who knows everything is not growing. And who wants to 'teach' others does it for his ego. Who has ego problems? people here or you? and if you believe in all these premade thoughts, sold in books or whatever.... there is one very ridiculous that fits on you... 'you preach what you have to learn the most'. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:27:10 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: How Mili admits defeat Message: 1) Mili said Maharaji never claimed to be the 'messiah'. 2) I showed him quotes where that's exactly what Maharaji claimed. 3) Mili said he'd 'get back to us' on that. Now, how many people think Mili's planning to do that? Get back to us, I mean? No, of course he isn't. That was just a ruse, a Mili lie to avoid conceding a point he had clearly lost. This is how cheaters play games. (Oh, I'm completely sorry to offend anyone with such vicious name-calling. Perhaps I should say this is how 'people who try to avoid the rules of fair play', play.) So, there I've called Mili a liar and cheater. Any objections? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:50:19 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Jim, I have written some posts about disagreeing with some of the attacks that have gone on on this site, so I assume you are talking to me. You don't need my permission to do or say whatever you want to about anyone (and if I get too offended, I can always stop reading the posts, right?) If someone is evading you, then I think it's valid to point this out. If someone is dishonest, that's fine to say that they are. Your reasoning is accurate. But to call someone 'scum' or 'shithead' or some of the other names that make NO SENSE (how does scum relate to anyone's inability to reason?) that I have heard on this forum doesn't help to drive a point home IMHO.(I'm not saying YOU said these, in fact, I can't remember what everyone says and doesn't say) Everyone may disagree with me, but I believe that low insults just anger and alienate the people you are trying to reason with. If you are trying to convince me of something and then you call me a name, I will probably be too angry to listen to or care about the points you are trying to make. If I am an outsider reading and trying to make up my mind, I may even just feel sorry for the person being attacked and miss the point. If you aren't trying to enlighten anyone, or teach them anything and just want to fight, then please disregard this whole message. I don't want to argue with you, Jim. This is just my point of view. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:01:04 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: VP Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Jim, I have written some posts about disagreeing with some of the attacks that have gone on on this site, so I assume you are talking to me. You don't need my permission to do or say whatever you want to about anyone (and if I get too offended, I can always stop reading the posts, right?) If someone is evading you, then I think it's valid to point this out. If someone is dishonest, that's fine to say that they are. Your reasoning is accurate. But to call someone 'scum' or 'shithead' or some of the other names that make NO SENSE (how does scum relate to anyone's inability to reason?) that I have heard on this forum doesn't help to drive a point home IMHO.(I'm not saying YOU said these, in fact, I can't remember what everyone says and doesn't say) Everyone may disagree with me, but I believe that low insults just anger and alienate the people you are trying to reason with. If you are trying to convince me of something and then you call me a name, I will probably be too angry to listen to or care about the points you are trying to make. If I am an outsider reading and trying to make up my mind, I may even just feel sorry for the person being attacked and miss the point. If you aren't trying to enlighten anyone, or teach them anything and just want to fight, then please disregard this whole message. I don't want to argue with you, Jim. This is just my point of view. VP VP, The terms you use are Mili's, not mine. All of my insults speak directly to the character weaknesses or fake lack of intelligence the premies waste our time with. Really, take a look. In my opinion, if you lie to me I'm fully entitled to call you a liar. If that get's your defenses up, so be it. No one has EVER gotten Mili to be honest here no matter how they try. No one has EVER gotten Chris to actually discuss things, regardless of their approach. Talking with people spouting a cult's party line is not the same as talking with regular folk. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 17:15:18 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Jim, I don't know that much about cult mentality, (I am learning and reading) but I think that their evasion is obvious even without some of the comments. To call someone lying a liar is honest, but I still think it is in the interests of good communication to say 'you are lying when you say blablabla' Name calling just pisses people off (even cult members are human beings with feelings) and then they don't listen. In the interest of truth, I did see Mili be honest once with Brian about shutting down premie.org. I also saw you call him 'the saddest creep' and a 'jerk'. But I also have seen him in NUMEROUS posts call you and Rick and others VERY NASTY things which, as I said below, doesn't reflect well on his peace of mind from the guru. The premies might argue that you are representing the exs, but I disagree because we are not espousing to be part of an initiated group. How you communicate on this forum is up to you, not me or anyone else. I do understand the points that you are trying to make here. The content of your posts (facts and experiences) impresses me more than anything else. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:15:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: VP Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: VP, Thanks for your thoughts. NOW WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU -- A SIMPLE NON-PREMIE -- THAT THEY COULD TELL AN EX-PREMIE WHAT TO THINK??? No, sorry, just kidding. After all, I was just a 'non-premie' myself one day. :) VP, when I lose it on these guys it's probably just a reflection of my own laziness or lack of imagination as much as anything else. I see that when others, like JW, Rick, Mr. Ex, Scott , hey even Katie if you're lucky, hit them with a slice of common sense or honesty I hadn't seen on the shelf. But what can I tell you? In a way I feel a little proprietary interest in the cult. I see its history as being part mine. I feel that when they obscure or deny it, they're actually doing that to my own past. I hate that. I also get SO disappointed when they begin to talk straight then buckle again as they invariably do. So I lash out. At this point, I don't think it matters a bit. Like I say, none of these cult-members have the courage to think for themselves. (Well, I shouldn't say that without reading Vacol's seventh epistle. I'll tell you, though, I'm not holding my breath. No offense, Vacol, it's just that I've been here a while.) So, it really doesn't matter if you're sweet as pie or crusty as -- well, me, I guess. There's no way in the world to get them to climb out of their shells. Those that are still with Maharaji after years and years are probably the worst. They've had more than enough chance to consider the facts, they've seen his own character flaws time and again, and they've just chosen religion over truth. These were the people I started off looking for TRUTH with in my youth. I despise what they've turned into. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:07:17 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim, JW Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: JW: Re: Everyone may disagree with me, but I believe that low insults just anger and alienate the people you are trying to reason with. I agree, and I also think that at times I don't manifest sufficient patience with people, or attempt to understand why they might be saying something, rather than just what they're saying. I will work on it. However, I should point out that these discussions are unmoderated. This gives people the license, if they choose to utilize it, to simply say whatever wild thing comes into their head regardless of whether it is 'legitimate.' At the point that someone is just completely obfuscatory, and no longer actually engaged in the dialogue, I can no longer make light of the situation. The appropriate way to proceed is to ask others in the community if they agree with my assessment and how I deal with it. Jim, bless his heart, has done this better than I. We might consider making this a sort of rule. Scott Peck talks about how communities have to deal with 'repressive personalities.' The bottom line is that a community can't really tolerate such people, and eventually must throw them out. I'm not saying anyone here fits that description, but to a lesser extent there are some people posting here that don't seem to play by any rules at all. They have to be dealt with, fairly but decisively, if we intend to continue this enterprise. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:20:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Scott, Oh how I hear you on this 'rule' problem. At times I've tried to elicit some sort of group sanction against 'cheaters'. Alas, some don't see it that way. The trick is to get premies to deal with hard questions, of course. Alas, they won't. Did you read on the net about the joke email circulating where you open it and it causes a fake crash of sorts. A message comes up saying' Your computer has performed an illegal operation. This may be becuase you have a small penis. Do you have a small penis?' Supposedly, there are two boxes, one 'yes', one 'no' to check. When you go to check the 'no' box it keeps moving away from you! Asking premies hard questions about M is like that. NV just now said he'd 'belly up to the bar' with you. Well, 'fraid not. He's already shown he just can't do it. I have NO ideas as to how to effectively deal with this. You? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:36:52 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: VP, Thanks for your thoughts. NOW WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU -- A SIMPLE NON-PREMIE -- THAT THEY COULD TELL AN EX-PREMIE WHAT TO THINK??? No, sorry, just kidding. After all, I was just a 'non-premie' myself one day. :) VP, when I lose it on these guys it's probably just a reflection of my own laziness or lack of imagination as much as anything else. I see that when others, like JW, Rick, Mr. Ex, Scott , hey even Katie if you're lucky, hit them with a slice of common sense or honesty I hadn't seen on the shelf. But what can I tell you? In a way I feel a little proprietary interest in the cult. I see its history as being part mine. I feel that when they obscure or deny it, they're actually doing that to my own past. I hate that. I also get SO disappointed when they begin to talk straight then buckle again as they invariably do. So I lash out. At this point, I don't think it matters a bit. Like I say, none of these cult-members have the courage to think for themselves. (Well, I shouldn't say that without reading Vacol's seventh epistle. I'll tell you, though, I'm not holding my breath. No offense, Vacol, it's just that I've been here a while.) So, it really doesn't matter if you're sweet as pie or crusty as -- well, me, I guess. There's no way in the world to get them to climb out of their shells. Those that are still with Maharaji after years and years are probably the worst. They've had more than enough chance to consider the facts, they've seen his own character flaws time and again, and they've just chosen religion over truth. These were the people I started off looking for TRUTH with in my youth. I despise what they've turned into. Jim, (That's OK, I have been told that my opinion here doesn't count more than once-snicker:) I think that it takes a lot of courage to say that you are 'lazy' or have a 'lack of imagination.' You know, you could have flamed me or found a way to insult me (like Aesop did) or turn my words around on me(like Participant did) or choose not to answer my questions (like Mili has), but instead you considered what I had to say and admitted something about yourself. What a breath of fresh air! I wish some other people could be this honest and engage in discussion...(you know who you are...) Now that everyone knows what a discussion looks like, we can get back to buisness (just kidding) VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:49:49 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Scott, Oh how I hear you on this 'rule' problem. At times I've tried to elicit some sort of group sanction against 'cheaters'. Alas, some don't see it that way. The trick is to get premies to deal with hard questions, of course. Alas, they won't. Did you read on the net about the joke email circulating where you open it and it causes a fake crash of sorts. A message comes up saying' Your computer has performed an illegal operation. This may be becuase you have a small penis. Do you have a small penis?' Supposedly, there are two boxes, one 'yes', one 'no' to check. When you go to check the 'no' box it keeps moving away from you! Asking premies hard questions about M is like that. NV just now said he'd 'belly up to the bar' with you. Well, 'fraid not. He's already shown he just can't do it. I have NO ideas as to how to effectively deal with this. You? Jim: I'll ask Jim Buchanan if he has any ideas. Don't think people would like them though. He's sort of 'take it or leave it.' He's just written a new book about the Principle of Generality. If you know anything about game theory, it's a way to keep everyone on the 'diagonal.' (I know this probably sounds like Greek, but the explication is involved.) Suffice it to say that it's a way of keeping people from claiming 'special' status, either directly or underhandedly. The ability to claim special status is expensive, both to those who win and to those who lose. It does, however, take a certain rationality to be able to see this. Ah... there's the rub. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 23:56:13 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Jim Subject: Rules, defacto and otherwise. (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: Scott, Oh how I hear you on this 'rule' problem. At times I've tried to elicit some sort of group sanction against 'cheaters'. Alas, some don't see it that way. The trick is to get premies to deal with hard questions, of course. Alas, they won't. Did you read on the net about the joke email circulating where you open it and it causes a fake crash of sorts. A message comes up saying' Your computer has performed an illegal operation. This may be becuase you have a small penis. Do you have a small penis?' Supposedly, there are two boxes, one 'yes', one 'no' to check. When you go to check the 'no' box it keeps moving away from you! Asking premies hard questions about M is like that. NV just now said he'd 'belly up to the bar' with you. Well, 'fraid not. He's already shown he just can't do it. I have NO ideas as to how to effectively deal with this. You? Jim: I need to think about this rule problem some more. Sorry to bring up Buchanan. Come to think of it he's not very relavant. Anyway, I'd like to hear what others have to say concerning a potential rule structure for the forum (or lack of one)? We will be moving to the new forum tomorrow, and perhaps that would be an appropriate time to have an initial discussion. I know we don't allow threats of violence, and Katie apparently will not allow postings that impersonate real participants. What is implied by the rules we've already established on a defacto basis? That seems a good place to start, what? By the way, I loved the story about the anticipatory computer virus. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:05:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Rules, defacto and otherwise. (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: Scott, I'm for a rule for responsive discussion. Here's how it might work: A complains to B that he's not being responsive B says 'so what', 'yes I am' or whatever A submits exchange to panel of three judges Panel decides if exchange was or was not responsive If it was, A get's a 'whiner' point on some scoreboard somewhere If it was not responsive, B gets a warning and chance to try again B gets the proverbial three tries If B still doesn't answer directly, B gets sent to Mili's page If A gets three whiner citations he has to serve as a judge Only ex's are judges -- cult memebers need not apply Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:44:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Jim & Scott Subject: Re: Rules, defacto and otherwise. (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: Jim and Scott - All I can tell you guys is to ask Brian. He is the ultimate arbiter on the site. We discussed being co-webmasters and decided that one person had to be in charge - Brian is it. Brian and I and some others have talked about password protection on the site and he has decided against it for the time being. Brian and I agree on the 'no posting under other people's names' rule because of what happened to Jim before (someone posting violent, albeit vague, threats under his name, which could have had nasty repercussions). The person who made these posts is, as far as we know, not posting on the forum any more. I am not sure what Brian thinks about a rule about 'responsive discussion' (if you are serious about that, Jim). Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:51:50 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Rules, defacto and otherwise. (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: I am not sure what Brian thinks about a rule about 'responsive discussion' (if you are serious about that, Jim). I'd be serous only if you were a permanent judge. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:54:25 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Katie Subject: P.S. On rules (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: Oh yeah, the only way to prevent specific people from posting on the site is to get password protection (as far as I know. Brian, our perfect webMaster may know more.) There are some exes who post on here anonymously who would like not to have to have password protection, and say that they would have never posted in the first place if it had been required. So it's a trade off - more rules mean less obnoxious posts, but may also mean less people posting. And some of the anonymous people have been great contributors to the forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:58:22 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Rules, defacto and otherwise. (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: I'd be serous only if you were a permanent judge. Jim, I am too tired to know if you are serious or not. But I would be a horrible judge of responsive discussion (not to mention the fact that I don't want to do it). Plus you and I would probably argue even more than we do now... not a pleasant thought. Good night & and see you (and y'all) on Forum III. As VP says: In Peace, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 01:16:08 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: VP Subject: addicted to confessions (Re: How Mili admits defeat) Message: I think that it takes a lot of courage to say that you are 'lazy' or have a 'lack of imagination.' You know, you could have flamed me or found a way to insult me (like Aesop did) or turn my words around on me(like Participant did) or choose not to answer my questions (like Mili has), but instead you considered what I had to say and admitted something about yourself. What a breath of fresh air! Jim insult VP - g? Jim is much more clever than that, I'll give him credit. He is very good at switching between the nice guy and mean guy. No need for 2 interogators for that clever technique to squeeze the truth out the unsophisticated idiot prey. He can do the entire interogation ploy alone. In fact with Jim, there is not even any need for a judge or jury. Very convenient! Only Jim can see the 'truth'. The rest are fools. When he has finished lashing out, will he be clever enough to champion something really positive and fulfilling? CD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 06:28:20 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: How Mili admits defeat Message: Here's another direct quote: One day, not know but one day, years from now, maybe even decades, I will still want your money but not as much as I do now. That, dear premies, will be the beginning of your retirement plan. Until then, trust me. Trust me to do what I think is right. After all, if I wanted any advice, I'd ask for it, right? Yes, I am the same as you and that's why you should give me just a little more money. After all, who else will you give it to? Some total stranger. Someone who's going to come up behind you with a bullet gun and rob you blind? Someone who will drag you into an alley and may say all sorts of mean things to you? Someone who DOESN'T speak the language of the heart? See, dear premies, and this is a true point -- I'm not afraid to say this -- at 9:00 sharp I will turn on the television and eat a sandwhich. I will then have a little drink and start calling old classmates from St. Joseph's Academy. I will then call my secretary and ask her to show me some of the funnier cards and letters we received from premies from ALL OVER THE WORLD. I should also say, and this is something I've been talking with Michael about, but I think it's time I let you guys in on it. I'm looking for a little land where we could really open up and share. My plan is to let you buy it for me and then to charge you everytime you come there. Right now, though, I'm going to go. Maybe Mahatma Ji can sing you a song about me. I want to watch tv and have a sandwich. Mark my words, at 9:00 I will start watching.' Jim, did you post this a few days ago with the intention of misleading people to think that it was Maharaji who said it? Yes, or no? So, who's a liar and a cheat then? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:36:54 (EST)
Poster: Paula Email: To: Everyone Subject: To Seymour & Salah Message: Seymour and Salah: Both of you sent me messages asking about what I think of M and premies, and K. I heard about M for the first time in 1990, when my best friend told me about 'some videos of an indian master'. He was watching the videos recently, although his mother is premie since the 70's. She used to be the 'boss' (I don't know the name... president? manager?) of EV here in the country I live, untill 1996, but she is still very engaged on it. about the K: I never received the knowledge, I don't want to receive it, and I never wanted to receive it. I think it is like a game... 'I give you the K if you stay there watching videos for 6 months every week'. I am not a dog that picks the newspaper just to get a little bit of meat. I am too rebel to have a master. And I ask too much questions to be a servant. I know these techniques were powerful to many people, and it still mean a lot to many people. I respect the ones who practice and I respect those who does not practice it anymore. My curiosity was gone when I read the techniques on ex-premie website, and I thank the person who put the techniques there. It meant a lot to me. about M: When I saw him on video for the fist time... I felt bothered inside. His eyes did not seem peaceful. There was something evil on it (it does not mean I think he is the devil). On the first video I saw, he said things I cannot remember now, but it made me think a lot, untill I met the mother of my friend, and she told me not to think of it, because you can understand just if you don't think. I kept watching the videos, I saw M in some events here... and I have been always curious about all this. M, EV and premies are all togehter a phenomenon I can't understand completely. I learned some things with M, but I cannot believe he is 'the one'. about premies: I knew a lot of premies, and some of them became my friends. I never liked the way the old premies used to see M. For example.... they have his picture on their wallets, and they still think he is the master of the universe... but they don't talk much about this with other people. I feel kind of sad about the way these people live their lives, because they always think that things will get better because M is there. When things go wrong they think M will fix their lives, and when things get right, they think M gave good things for them. about all people in this forum: I have been reading your messages for a while. I am still trying to find my answers about M and people envolved on it. I don't know why but it is important to me. I respect you a lot. And I hope you don't mind if I keep reading and writing my messages here. thank you for the patience of those who read everything of this looooooooooonnnnng message. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:39:58 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Paula Subject: Re: To Seymour & Salah Message: Dear Paula, Just a short note: I didn't think your message was too long. And you are welcome to keep reading and posting here - I have enjoyed reading your postings, too. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:57:40 (EST)
Poster: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Paula Subject: Re: To Seymour & Salah Message: Seymour and Salah: Both of you sent me messages asking about what I think of M and premies, and K. I heard about M for the first time in 1990, when my best friend told me about 'some videos of an indian master'. He was watching the videos recently, although his mother is premie since the 70's. She used to be the 'boss' (I don't know the name... president? manager?) of EV here in the country I live, untill 1996, but she is still very engaged on it. about the K: I never received the knowledge, I don't want to receive it, and I never wanted to receive it. I think it is like a game... 'I give you the K if you stay there watching videos for 6 months every week'. I am not a dog that picks the newspaper just to get a little bit of meat. I am too rebel to have a master. And I ask too much questions to be a servant. I know these techniques were powerful to many people, and it still mean a lot to many people. I respect the ones who practice and I respect those who does not practice it anymore. My curiosity was gone when I read the techniques on ex-premie website, and I thank the person who put the techniques there. It meant a lot to me. about M: When I saw him on video for the fist time... I felt bothered inside. His eyes did not seem peaceful. There was something evil on it (it does not mean I think he is the devil). On the first video I saw, he said things I cannot remember now, but it made me think a lot, untill I met the mother of my friend, and she told me not to think of it, because you can understand just if you don't think. I kept watching the videos, I saw M in some events here... and I have been always curious about all this. M, EV and premies are all togehter a phenomenon I can't understand completely. I learned some things with M, but I cannot believe he is 'the one'. about premies: I knew a lot of premies, and some of them became my friends. I never liked the way the old premies used to see M. For example.... they have his picture on their wallets, and they still think he is the master of the universe... but they don't talk much about this with other people. I feel kind of sad about the way these people live their lives, because they always think that things will get better because M is there. When things go wrong they think M will fix their lives, and when things get right, they think M gave good things for them. about all people in this forum: I have been reading your messages for a while. I am still trying to find my answers about M and people envolved on it. I don't know why but it is important to me. I respect you a lot. And I hope you don't mind if I keep reading and writing my messages here. thank you for the patience of those who read everything of this looooooooooonnnnng message. Hi Paula Thanks for your reply. I like your rebel and combatitive, curious and open spirit. It is really great. It is really a complex subject, because we have all had different experiences with M , the Knowledge and other premies. I am glad you are enjoying the Forum and the postings. Just incase you disappear again, would appreciate your email address. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:57:48 (EST)
Poster: Robtn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Paula Subject: Re: To Seymour & Salah Message: Paula, No thanks needed but 'thanks' just the same. You read our long messages and we'll read your's, and the short ones to. Glad you are finding this site helpful. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:32:16 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Another bad parallel? Message: [Again, from the AP newswire] The bomb shelters were built, the food and clothing were gathered, the weapons were stockpiled, the fuel was stored. But Armageddon never came. Elizabeth Clare Prophet, spiritual leader of the Church Universal and Triumphant, had warned back in the 1980s that a nuclear holocaust was coming. But when March 1990 slipped by without the prophesied disaster, her apocalyptic sect went into a skid it is still struggling to halt. The church is selling two-thirds of its 12,000-acre Royal Teton Ranch on the northern edge of Yellowstone National Park. It is laying off staff members, selling equipment, closing businesses -- and losing members. Disillusioned after years of costly preparations for a calamity that never came, followers left in droves upon realizing the world would go on. As for Mrs. Prophet, the 58-year-old woman has a still-undiagnosed neurological disease that attacks her memory, the president of the church says. Also, her epilepsy is getting worse. Her fourth marriage ended in divorce last year after her husband left her for their nanny, and her four adult children have left the church, some with bitter words. Peter Arnone of Livingston, who was a member for 22 years and blames the church for the end of his marriage, predicts continued decline for the religious sect. He left in 1992. ``Elizabeth Clare Prophet has been the magnet for this movement and she's running out of gas,'' he says. He adds: ``America is not as naive as it used to be. People are more distrustful of cults with charasmatic leaders.'' Gilbert Cleirbaut, a 51-year-old management consultant and church member, became church president in 1996. He says he is guiding it away from survivalism. ``Let's move away from fear and the constant building of fear,'' he says. ``I don't want to have fanaticism. In every organization where you have fanaticism, love is gone. ``I want to have a church where our people are very well-balanced, who practice what we preach.'' Chris Kelly, church spokesman, estimates the church at its peak had 2,000 members living in Paradise Valley and the nearby cities of Livingston and Bozeman. He says the number has dropped to maybe 1,500. Cleirbaut (pronounced clehr-BOH) says those members who were ``more balanced'' understood that a holocaust was averted through prayer and have stayed. Heeding Mrs. Prophet's warnings, the New Age sect moved its headquarters from California to Montana in 1986 and built a fallout shelter complex high in the Gallatin Range. The structures, with a capacity of 750, were buried under seven acres with stocks of food, water, vehicles and weapons for survival after nuclear war had laid waste to civilization. The shelter cost a fortune. Many church members helped pay for it, some by borrowing and mortgaging their homes in expectation that their debt would be obliterated by the coming holocaust. Cleirbaut admits that the church -- whose teachings involve karma, reincarnation, communal living and a blend of Eastern and Western religions -- had to change directions after what is delicately referred to as ``the shelter cycle.'' Drawing on his business background, he insists that the means used to restructure corporations can be used to revitalize religion. Cleirbaut says the church is still making a modest profit -- $554,000 in fiscal year 1996, down nearly two-thirds from the year before. And the church is rich in land, having bought what is now hot property among the movie star and Wall Street set. But in the last few years, it has chopped its staff from 750 to 172. It has shut down its construction department, printing shop, food processing plant, farm and ranching operations, cafeteria, medical office and book distribution center. The shelter is still there. But church officials say the weapons were sold long ago. ``We're getting rid of everything that doesn't focus on our mission'' of spreading the teachings of Mrs. Prophet, Cleirbaut says. The changing face of the religious sect has not gone unnoticed by its neighbors in Park County, many of whom were alarmed by the cache of weapons, the huge bomb shelter and a fuel spill from the sect's underground diesel tanks that threatened a creek. ``You don't get the outcry you heard in the early days,'' says Jim Hunt, county commissioner since 1987. ``The only activity we see is the downgrading of the church.'' Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:16:56 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Everyone Subject: Thank you Message: Dear Everyone, Thank you so much for responding to my post and I'm overwhelmed by yall's wonderful responses. This is my first time in a forum, so I was at little reticent and low on details. Additionally, I apologize for posting my note so late in the day. I'm only have access during 9 to 5 - thus, I'm just now able to return your messages. Again, Thank you. My daughters are 12 and 6. They are beautiful and full of life. Although they had a moderately hard time during the divorce (3 years ago), their mother and I made sure they understood, with I think good success, that the divorcce wasn't their fault and that both of us would always be there for them. Their mother and I have joint custody, but they primarily live with her. The divorce was due to many factors (I'm sure this is always true, so sorry for an obvious point), but there were not any wierd dis-functions... just two people who couldn't find ways of sustaining love for each other. She had a list, and I did too... but anyway, we moved on and over a year ago, I was dating someone and my ex started dated this 'guy'. I met him, then, one day when I was picking up the girls, and he seemed semi-nice... shook hands firmly... didn't seem too puffed up... but the girls had complained before I met him and have continued to complain that they really did not, do not, like him. I asked why, trying to tell them talk it out, and they just said things along the lines - that he's;, ' just wierd... trys too hard to play... hangs on mom...orders me in and out of the room when he's talking to mom(the 12 year old's quote).... Well, I was concerned, but thought it might just be a natural first re-action to their mom dating someone... I told then to try to be nice, but just go do something else when he's there if you don't want to be around him. I discussed it with their mom, and she said she thought the same thing. Well, about a month ago, my ex wanted me to keep the kids on an un-scheduled day, a Sunday night, so she could go to 'an event'. I asked her what it was and she said a meditation seminar (she had dropped a few references over the months that she was going to an occasional meditation class, but it did not register with me as a big deal... man, was I blind). During the next week the kids told me, and use the word - Maharaji - for the first time in describing what their mom was going to do on the Sunday night I was to keep them. My first reaction was a queer feeling - 'my ex is running around with the Beatle's guru?... TM?... I wonder if he's hit on her like he hit on Lennon's girlfriend?' Well, obviously I had the wrong guru. I asked her about it a few days later and she talked about wanting to get 'spiritual' and acting pretty cocky about her new found method (both of us are/were fairly conservative Christians - our church is/was Episcopalian) - and her comments seemed 'funny' - it just was not ringing right in her first descriptions of finding a method to 'go in' and build up her sprirituality. I asked her if this Maharashi/isshi/whatever was the Beatles guy in a friendly way (stupidly) and she said no, and started to kid; 'he's my guru'... I guess picking up on my frown. She kept laughing and said; 'Yeah, and I am going to give him all of my money'. Well, she settled down a little and I nicely just asked her again what it was all about. She said the Maharaji was just a teacher who shows people how to 'go in' and build up whatever might already be in there... Budda... Christ...whatever... 'its harmless'. I kept the kids that Sunday night... and I found your web site the next day. I had known she had gone to Miami with this 'guy' last spring. Through your web site I now know why (at the time she had said nothing about M and this trip... she said she had liked Miami when I casually asked her about it then). The more I read in your site the more I understood... and the more I became concerned for the kids. I asked her if she, or the 'guy', had shown the videos or promoted M to the kids in any way. She lied and said no and that it was her understanding that no one under 18 could see the videos. (My daughters later told me about the 'guy' offering to show the videos and their mom saying she thought they would just get bored/ but also how he had kept pestering my 12 year old about watching the videos with their mom just ignoring the situation - when I confronted her with this contradiction, she freaked out... she had got 'caught'... she backed tracked in her rememberance, tried to re-spin it, defended the 'guy' and made a general embarrasement of herself.) Over the last two weeks or so, my ex has told me the 'guy' has been doing this for 20 years, but when I said it sounded like he's an ex-instructor, she said she didn't think so and then, in a wierd and cutting statement, said she did not think he had what it takes to be an instructor. (She later asked me not to relate this cut to him if, and when, I talk to him.) I was amased at the duplicity of her attitude and this statement. (Last fall the 'guy' had left our city on what was described by the kids (at that time, they said they were happy he was leaving), and my ex, as a seven week trip to Australia. I now know it was for the 'Kangaroo Hop' he attended/ help organize?/ 7 weeks for a 4 day festival?.) Well, I downloaded everything, made copies and gave her a copy (she at first didn't want it but finally did ask for it 10 days ago), our minister a copy, and several of our friends and members of her family. I think she has read a little bit... but she is still acting hinky on the subject. I have, like I said, inoculated/educated the kids on M (over spring break). I respect yall's concern about being careful on the ways to do this - too much negative or too hard pressing can cause a backlash. What I did was basically showed them yall's web site, the pictures, the reports of the mansions and the excess, his 'master' role and promotion (told them to not ever follow someone who sets himself/herself up as a 'Mastah' and drives a big car - they laughed), and demostrated the four meditation techniques. By the end of spring break, the kids were showing signs of being totally bored with the whole thing... but, they really do not like this guy now that they know about M... my oldest asked me if she can tell him that she 'hates him'. I told her no - hate the sin, love the sinner - and to just go into the other room if he's around. There's more work to be done and I plan to gently, with yall's input, quietly try. But, although their boredom and dis-like of the 'guy' I take as good signs, I do believe there are still concerns - probably more than I know ... and this is why I looking forward to yall's unique help and input. I think I have found a good balance in talking/leading the kids... I humbly hope I have. I have tried to meet with the 'guy' for coffee to go over these concerns and try to nicely ask him to stay away (or at least not discuss M with them), but he has refused to meet. Says he's busy. I would like to give yall his name, and see if anyone has heard of him... but unsure if its kosher to do this here. Please advise and thank you again for you kind responses! (Hope this has not been too much info., or too long/muddled/boring.) RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:29:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: RD, I hate to tell you, but Maharaji really IS the Lord. See, brother, we've just set up this here so-called 'ex-premie' web site as a testing ground for some of our 'slower' premie brothers and sisters to develop their defense mechanisms. Haven't you noticed their difficulties? Some of them are still a little too close to 'regular' thinking but then that's why Grand Instructor Mili created this program in the first place. Please advise your daughters that you are a simple heathen uneducated in these matters. If they've seen enough videos they'll understand and make their way to a Premie and Aspirant Youth Center in your area. Remember, RD, if you love them let them go. In His Light, Name and Fincancial Servitude, Brother Jim Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:37:32 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear RD - Your post wasn't long or boring to me, and I am glad you found everyone's posts helpful. In my opinion, it would be OK for you to mention your wife's boyfriend's name here, if you feel comfortable with it. I don't know very many premies, but there are other people who post on here that were involved with DLM and EV for a long time, and might know the guy. My only caveat is that if I were you, I'd be concerned that revealing the guy's name would make my ex angry at me. Regards, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:42:47 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear RD, I hadn't seen or read your post(s) but I will look for them now. I just wanted to lend my support. It sounds like you've gotten some good support here already. It is good that you caught on and are dealing with the situation in an honest way I only would hope that your ex comes around because the kids will surely be effected in some way if she doesn't. I don't know if you have read here that some of us, myself included, feel there is great benifit to the meditation but that the Guru is a fake and worse as he uses peoples honest desire to seek god to pad his pockets. Good luck and I'm glad that you found this forum. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:26:29 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: RD, That's quite a story. It sounds like you really love your girls and that is really what is going to help you most of all. If you haven't read JW's answer to your post, please do. If your ex's boyfriend reads this site or if another premie tells him about seeing your story here, he may tell your ex about you posting his name. (and your wife knows about the site too, now, right?) Katie's right, she may be furious with you. I don't think that it would help anything. (By the way, I was 8 when introduced to Maharaji- and I never received knowledge, but boy did I want to for a loooong time!) Best of luck to you, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:33:29 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Yikes! Holy Hoodwink Batman! Please Mili, Please Mili... Let me be... Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:41:20 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Thank you Message: i appreciate your point... but I'm not sure if she would be angry over revealing his name and inquiring on his story or being angry over the irony of me making contact with HER group, albeit... a transformed group. I'm mainly concerned over the ethics here... its a contrary feeling whating more info. on a possible negative influence to my girls and, at the same time, wanting to treat (love) my neighbor as I would want to be treated (loved). I'm interested in you view... maybe I should go with the later and trust the big guy to keep my daughters away from the 'guy'.... prudence vs. propriety? RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:47:10 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear Robyn, I understand. Although I do not, and have not, been interested in meditation, I do respect the difference in having a 'master' and simply practicing the described techniques. They (the techniques) are not for me, but yall's input to the larger and more insidious nature of the cult is what I am 'fighting'. Please let me know if I become insensitive and forget the distinction your describing. RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:50:08 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: VP Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear VP, Got JW's post. Again, thank you for your input and good spirit. See post above about prudence vs. propriety. Thanks... RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:18:03 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: RD Here's my advice to you, for what it's worth. You have every right to be concerned about the influences that are shaping your children'e lives. But be careful that fear of the unknown isn't the driving force for actions you may take. Try to understand from your wife why she's involved with Maharaji. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to discuss the topic with both her and her new found partner, given that he is now in your children's life too. My experience with this site is there's a lot of misinformation being spread about Maharaji with the expressed intent to invoke fear. Some sincerely believe they are fulfilling a public service, while others just have an axe to grind with Maharaji. At the least, he is no doubt controversial. So take that into account as you proceed, and most important: Make sure you get the information about Maharaji and Knowledge from someone you trust... I assume you still trust your ex-wife. I can say that people who follow Maharaji are not wierd or evil people, at least not because of their involvement with him. Speaking for myself, it has been a beneficial and stablizing factor in my life. But also remember, people from all walks of life take him up on his offer. He doesn't have a magic wand where he can replace each person's basic character with some picture of peace and tranquility (heaven forbid). Just look at the diverse group of people who post on this site. Good luck! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:22:15 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Please 'enlighten' us on what misinformation - facts, not subjective sharing of feelings - we are spreading about the one who did indeed call himself the lord of the universe. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:28:10 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear RD, I hadn't seen or read your post(s) but I will look for them now. I just wanted to lend my support. It sounds like you've gotten some good support here already. It is good that you caught on and are dealing with the situation in an honest way I only would hope that your ex comes around because the kids will surely be effected in some way if she doesn't. I don't know if you have read here that some of us, myself included, feel there is great benifit to the meditation but that the Guru is a fake and worse as he uses peoples honest desire to seek god to pad his pockets. Good luck and I'm glad that you found this forum. Robyn Robyn, I think you said that you haven't been around for 20+ years, so you've missed what to me has been something significant and very touching... The kids of premies have grown up! And they are on the whole kind, respectful, and beautiful people, contrary to your predictions. ANY parent would be proud to have their children turn out like them (and don't take my word for it, maybe we could get some other feedback here). So just a caution to you Robyn, if you care: Be careful that you stay informed if you're going to offer advice that will affect other people's lives. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:45:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: NV, you miss the obvious (Re: Thank you) Message: RD Here's my advice to you, for what it's worth. You have every right to be concerned about the influences that are shaping your children'e lives. But be careful that fear of the unknown isn't the driving force for actions you may take. Try to understand from your wife why she's involved with Maharaji. I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to discuss the topic with both her and her new found partner, given that he is now in your children's life too. My experience with this site is there's a lot of misinformation being spread about Maharaji with the expressed intent to invoke fear. Some sincerely believe they are fulfilling a public service, while others just have an axe to grind with Maharaji. At the least, he is no doubt controversial. So take that into account as you proceed, and most important: Make sure you get the information about Maharaji and Knowledge from someone you trust... I assume you still trust your ex-wife. I can say that people who follow Maharaji are not wierd or evil people, at least not because of their involvement with him. Speaking for myself, it has been a beneficial and stablizing factor in my life. But also remember, people from all walks of life take him up on his offer. He doesn't have a magic wand where he can replace each person's basic character with some picture of peace and tranquility (heaven forbid). Just look at the diverse group of people who post on this site. Good luck! If I wanted to investigate a teacher, I wouldn't ask questions of someone who's just getting acquainted with him. I'd go to the teacher himself. Why didn't you recommend that, NV? Why not suggest to RD that he simply make an appointment with Maharaji sometime? M's too busy? No problem, RD can then get in touch with someof the other fine people in M's organization to find out what he needs to know, right? At that time he can ask: 1) How did the guru become a guru to begin with? 2) Does he claim to have any special realtionship with God? 3) On the ex-premie web site, I've read some quotes attributed to the guru wherein he claims to be 'God in human form.' Did he really say that? If so why? 4) I've also read where the guru allegedly claimed to be the 'Saviour of Mankind.' Did he say that as well? If so, why? 5) I've read that the guru used to call his brothers and mother his Holy Family and claimed that they were all 'realized.' Did he claim that? Where are these people now? 6) Has the guru ever made any mistakes? What wre they? How did he deal with them? NV, I share your concern that RD keep an open mind here. I'd personally urge him to keep a VERY open mind as he tried to learn more. What do you think? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:54:27 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: RD Subject: Nice to do some service (Re: Thank you) Message: >(Last fall the 'guy' had left our city on what was described by the kids >(at that time, they said they were happy he was leaving), and my ex, as >a seven week trip to Australia. I now know it was for the 'Kangaroo Hop' >he attended/ help organize?/ 7 weeks for a 4 day festival?.) EV had a huge need of people to help preparing for the conference in Amaroo. Hundreds of premies were there to help on the land, constructions, organizing, etc It's very likely he's involved a lot to participate in that. It's very likely he is one of EV's organizers. Why don't you send the guy's name to Brian (Webmaster), he would forward it to me, and I have some means to check, if you like. I don't give you my e-mail 'cause I still need some privacy:-)) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:59:25 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Katie Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear Katie, One more thing... Yall's responses and my long spew decribing the situation have been both heartening and cleansing, respectively. I feel, and think, I should continue doing everything possible to protect the kids, remain honest and above board in the effort, and to remember... to not be two-dimensional in worrying about the 'guy'. Yes, I'm still angry, but I've contacted yall for advice/insights and to also ensure I do the right things without becoming deceitful and 'on their level'-(manipulative). If I do give the name... What could I learn and how would the info. be helpful... My speculation is the info. could: - 1) cause more alarm due to a very sordid past someone would know about him; - 2) provide insight to my ex, and to me, on how the 'guy' is only repeating a pattern; - 3) or simply provide no useful information at all. If its 1 - there might be libel/slander issues if its 2 - its relatively benign- maybe a big yawn to my ex if its 3 - its not relevant Sorry for thinking out loud here... Anyway, please respond. RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:31:12 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear NV, I thank you for your response. I understand that there are other ways of seeing this site and its information. I for one am comfortable in my judgement that M is not for me, or my girls. I have talked at length about all of this with my ex, and there is not any spark of critical analysis in her discussions. She admits being critical of M causes her dis-comfort - the 'guy' refuses to meet with me. I respectively say, that the 'master'/student dynamic for K is my main concern. The style issues of M's excesses contribute to my distain. Additionally, the 'go into yourself to enlarge the cup/fill the cup with whatever is already in you' dogma, in my mind, demands/supposes an equivalence of 'entities' - the whatever is already in you - Budda, Christ, etc. - which cheapens the entities, depending on your beliefs of course - I don't believe the 'God Force' is best understood in patheistic terms. But listen, your response was honest and friendly... I just do not want my ex, and especially this 'guy', to push the concept of a 'master' on my kids. When they are grown, they can make their own choices, until then, I believe the faith/theology they have had since their Christening, remaining a consistent, stable and open to follow path, is in their best interest. Yes, answer questions fairly and openningly about other religions/ideas... provide the facts and gentle guidence... but promoting/demostrating a 'master' should not be done. Again, thank you for your post. RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:49:06 (EST)
Poster: RD Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Nice to do some service (Re: Thank you) Message: Dear Mr Ex, Thank you for your help. Its one thing I haven't thought of - the 'guy' could be a big wig?... maybe, and maybe that info. would have some effect on my ex. due to her poor opinion of his qualifications/ability to be an instructor (that is if she was honest in this cut about the 'guy' she made to me). How do I get Brian? RD Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:49:59 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Dear NV, I thank you for your response. I understand that there are other ways of seeing this site and its information. I for one am comfortable in my judgement that M is not for me, or my girls. I have talked at length about all of this with my ex, and there is not any spark of critical analysis in her discussions. She admits being critical of M causes her dis-comfort - the 'guy' refuses to meet with me. I respectively say, that the 'master'/student dynamic for K is my main concern. The style issues of M's excesses contribute to my distain. Additionally, the 'go into yourself to enlarge the cup/fill the cup with whatever is already in you' dogma, in my mind, demands/supposes an equivalence of 'entities' - the whatever is already in you - Budda, Christ, etc. - which cheapens the entities, depending on your beliefs of course - I don't believe the 'God Force' is best understood in patheistic terms. But listen, your response was honest and friendly... I just do not want my ex, and especially this 'guy', to push the concept of a 'master' on my kids. When they are grown, they can make their own choices, until then, I believe the faith/theology they have had since their Christening, remaining a consistent, stable and open to follow path, is in their best interest. Yes, answer questions fairly and openningly about other religions/ideas... provide the facts and gentle guidence... but promoting/demostrating a 'master' should not be done. Again, thank you for your post. RD I agree with you most emphatically RD, it should NEVER be pushed on anyone either directly or subtly. Maybe you should write a letter to M to get a little more perspective on where he stands on this type of issue. I'm sure your wife can provide you with the details. He doesn't have a lot of time to answer but maybe one of his staff will. Who knows maybe he will. Hope it works out. I'm sure it will if everyone communicates with each other. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:04:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: RD Subject: Re: Thank you Message: Hi RD, I've read both your responses, plus your responses and conversation with everyone else. When I said before that you could write the guys name on the site, I meant that it would be OK with Brian, if you felt it was the right thing to do. My gut feeling is that it would probably be best for all concerned NOT to post the name on the site. E-mailing Mr. Ex sounds like a good solution (By the way, Brian's address is brian@ex-premie.org.) My guess is that all you would learn about this person is how deeply they are involved with EV, which may help you in dealing with his influence on your daughters. I think you're right in your impulse to be compassionate yet honest in this situation, because that's the way you would like to be treated. It's really hard to be so in these type of situations sometimes, so I admire that very much. Anyway, feel free to continue posting and asking questions. I do view this web-site and forum as a support group, and I'm glad you've found it helpful to post here. Take care, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:38:51 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Very funny, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: Maybe you should write a letter to M to get a little more perspective on where he stands on this type of issue. I'm sure your wife can provide you with the details. He doesn't have a lot of time to answer but maybe one of his staff will. Who knows maybe he will. Hope it works out. I'm sure it will if everyone communicates with each other. That's rich, NV. You must know that M NEVER answers confrontational questions. Oh sure, he'll take carefully controlled questions pre-submitted, vetted, sanitized and reviewed, for the odd aspirant program. I've watached a recent video of this charade and it was disgusting. Maharaji pulls a card out and reads a question: 'Maharaji, why do we need a master?' Maharaji then smirks, as if to make clear that the main purpose of submitting any question at all is to give Maharaji a chance to ridicule your excessive thinking nature before all the other, more balalnced premies and apsirants who'd never think of doing such a thing. Then he answers, 'Why do we need a master? To tell us why we need a master, of course!' [That, by the way, is far from a direct translation. But the session I saw was just as inane. Old jokes, bad puns and superficial evasions. And those are the questions he answered!] As for letters, lots of people on this very board have written Maharaji over the years and not once has he stooped so low as to actually answer any real questions. Why even Maharaji's brother, the only one who didn't bolt with the rest of the Holy Family, can't get any straight answers out of him. So, your point that '[everything will work out] if everyone communicates with each other' is well taken albeit immensely ironic. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:49:16 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Very funny, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: Maybe you should write a letter to M to get a little more perspective on where he stands on this type of issue. I'm sure your wife can provide you with the details. He doesn't have a lot of time to answer but maybe one of his staff will. Who knows maybe he will. Hope it works out. I'm sure it will if everyone communicates with each other. That's rich, NV. You must know that M NEVER answers confrontational questions. Oh sure, he'll take carefully controlled questions pre-submitted, vetted, sanitized and reviewed, for the odd aspirant program. I've watached a recent video of this charade and it was disgusting. Maharaji pulls a card out and reads a question: 'Maharaji, why do we need a master?' Maharaji then smirks, as if to make clear that the main purpose of submitting any question at all is to give Maharaji a chance to ridicule your excessive thinking nature before all the other, more balalnced premies and apsirants who'd never think of doing such a thing. Then he answers, 'Why do we need a master? To tell us why we need a master, of course!' [That, by the way, is far from a direct translation. But the session I saw was just as inane. Old jokes, bad puns and superficial evasions. And those are the questions he answered!] As for letters, lots of people on this very board have written Maharaji over the years and not once has he stooped so low as to actually answer any real questions. Why even Maharaji's brother, the only one who didn't bolt with the rest of the Holy Family, can't get any straight answers out of him. So, your point that '[everything will work out] if everyone communicates with each other' is well taken albeit immensely ironic. Thought that'd get a rise out of you Jim. My point about everyone communicating with each other has nothing to do with whether RD write a letter or not. In other words he should not wait for an answer before getting on with his life. Hey... maybe you could apply the same advice to your life! Just a thought. Besides, it won'r hurt for him to try. Another thing, why don't we just let RD's situation BE without using him to make our own hay. It's kinda gross otherwise. Deal? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 18:59:26 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: No comprendo newage lingo, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: Thought that'd get a rise out of you Jim. My point about everyone communicating with each other has nothing to do with whether RD write a letter or not. In other words he should not wait for an answer before getting on with his life. Hey... maybe you could apply the same advice to your life! Just a thought. Besides, it won'r hurt for him to try. Another thing, why don't we just let RD's situation BE without using him to make our own hay. It's kinda gross otherwise. Deal? NV, You're starting to show your true colors. First, you know M will never write a frank, substnative letter to RD. Why then do you mislead him with 'it won't hurt to try'? How patronizing. Come on, tell him the truth -- you KNOW the chances of Maharaji ever answering his questions are miniscule. Admit it, NV. Admit it or ignore it or make up some bullshit answer about 'well, you never know.' The fact is, you know that's an empty suggestion. Why'd you make it? Second, why should we just let RD's situation 'BE' whatever the hell that means? Is that why you ansewred him in the first place, to just let it BE? I don't find anything the slightest 'gross' in warning people away from the fat, slimy creep who paraded as God in Human Form and tricked me for eight years. Why would that be gross? Sorry, I guess I'm just a little slow today. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:39:48 (EST)
Poster: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: RD Subject: Re: Nice to do some service (Re: Thank you) Message: I'm glad that the site and people posting ont the forum could be of some help to you, RD. You can reach me at the address above. I'll forward anything you want to send on to Mr. Ex for you. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:21:11 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: No comprendo newage lingo, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: No problem Jim, we all have our slow days. It's gross because RD is sincerely asking for advice (which BTW was why I answered him), and you are using his real-life concern to further grind your own axe. It demonstrates an acute insensitivity to RD's plight. Do you think you can put someone elses concerns before yours? As for the letter, I've written M and gotten a response as have many others so it's not an empty suggestion for me. Give it a try it won't hurt. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:31:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Re: No comprendo newage lingo, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: No problem Jim, we all have our slow days. It's gross because RD is sincerely asking for advice (which BTW was why I answered him), and you are using his real-life concern to further grind your own axe. It demonstrates an acute insensitivity to RD's plight. Do you think you can put someone elses concerns before yours? As for the letter, I've written M and gotten a response as have many others so it's not an empty suggestion for me. Give it a try it won't hurt. NV, Of course M's replied to some people -- or at least his servants have. But about what and what did he say? He certainly won't answer anything that challenges him. Do you honestly think he will? Honestly? And I DID write him. Sent it registered. No answer. Surprised? As for RD, he joked back with me so your precious sensitivity's misplaced. Read the thread. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:37:44 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: No comprendo newage lingo, NV (Re: Thank you) Message: It's gross whether he jokes with you (which was BTW before you started using him as a foil to grind your axe) or not. It just comes down to respect of others Jim. You just don't get it. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:08:58 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: NV, teach us about respect (Re: Thank you) Message: It's gross whether he jokes with you (which was BTW before you started using him as a foil to grind your axe) or not. It just comes down to respect of others Jim. You just don't get it. NV, Your pose as some sort of Miss Manners of cult inquiries is pathetic. I might ahve joked with RD but you mislead him, didn't you? This 'write him a letter' bit was bullshit and you know it. NV, you're just a silly follower of one of the laughing stocks of the twentieth century. Unless and until you're really able to talk about things your presence here is noteworthy for what you WON'T say, not what you will. By the way, do you not know that Maharaji doesn't want to be discussed in public like this? Do you not know that he has mentioned that he doesn't want premies talking about him on the internet? What's wrong with you? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 01:43:16 (EST)
Poster: CD Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: Nice to do some service (Re: Thank you) Message: Why don't you send the guy's name to Brian (Webmaster), he would forward it to me, and I have some means to check, if you like. I don't give you my e-mail 'cause I still need some privacy:-)) What a great role model you are! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 04:48:41 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: CD Subject: the role i'm playing (Re: Thank you) Message: I'm very sorry to admit I'm playing the guy Mr Rawat and PAM might be furious about. Someone had to play this, I choose to take it. I'm just hoping some other recent ex-instructors/DLM/EV organizers will participate too. I'm aware of some small part of the whole game, hoping that the picture will be broaden with some other testimonies. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:24:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Everyone Subject: Mili's stunning hypocrisy Message: I knew if I waited a few hours he'd give me yet another example of ridiculous premie thinking. Yesterday, Mili posted at length, ridiculing anyone who believed the Mike Finch story about Maharaji giving him daredevil 'agya' to drive into oncoming traffic. Posturing this way or that, as he does from time to time, Mili pretended that he is the most discerning guy around, tough, worldly and not given to believing ANYTHING without rock-solid proof. 'It's a hard world out there, sweetheart...' You could almost hear a bad Bogart imitation. Then, typical Mili, he really exposes himself as a buffoon. In a thread below, Mili warns us of the prospect of a Maharaji lawsuit saying: Sorry to have to say this to you, but M has already had his share of lawsuits with his mother and brother, remember? He is not 'above it'. [snip] He does have a pretty good team of lawyers, you know.' Well, Mili, what do you actually know about any such lawsuits? Who filed them? How many? Was M plaintiff or defendant? How do youeven know they took place at all? But, even better, is your second point about the lawyers. How do you know what M has? How many lawyers, if any, does he have? What do they do for him? Who are they? What makes them good? How do you know anything at all of what you say? As I asked you below, either you have that special 'first-hand' knowledge you claim to never leave home without OR you're just trading in vague rumours like you say you NEVER do, or, worse, you're just making it up. Well? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:27:04 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Jim Subject: No, THIS IS EVEN BETTER! (Re: Mili's stunning hypocrisy) Message: I knew if I waited a few hours he'd give me yet another example of ridiculous premie thinking. Yesterday, Mili posted at length, ridiculing anyone who believed the Mike Finch story about Maharaji giving him daredevil 'agya' to drive into oncoming traffic. Posturing this way or that, as he does from time to time, Mili pretended that he is the most discerning guy around, tough, worldly and not given to believing ANYTHING without rock-solid proof. 'It's a hard world out there, sweetheart...' You could almost hear a bad Bogart imitation. Then, typical Mili, he really exposes himself as a buffoon. In a thread below, Mili warns us of the prospect of a Maharaji lawsuit saying: Sorry to have to say this to you, but M has already had his share of lawsuits with his mother and brother, remember? He is not 'above it'. [snip] He does have a pretty good team of lawyers, you know.' Well, Mili, what do you actually know about any such lawsuits? Who filed them? How many? Was M plaintiff or defendant? How do youeven know they took place at all? But, even better, is your second point about the lawyers. How do you know what M has? How many lawyers, if any, does he have? What do they do for him? Who are they? What makes them good? How do you know anything at all of what you say? As I asked you below, either you have that special 'first-hand' knowledge you claim to never leave home without OR you're just trading in vague rumours like you say you NEVER do, or, worse, you're just making it up. Well? Then, in the thread below, Mili, who NEVER trades in rumours, says: I believe he made a conscious effort in the past to break away from the 'God' image that was turning many sincere people such as yourself away from what he had to say about the experience of Knowledge itself. Where's your proof Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:05:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Jim Subject: Re: No, THIS IS EVEN BETTER! (Re: Mili's stunning hypocrisy) Message: I knew if I waited a few hours he'd give me yet another example of ridiculous premie thinking. Yesterday, Mili posted at length, ridiculing anyone who believed the Mike Finch story about Maharaji giving him daredevil 'agya' to drive into oncoming traffic. Posturing this way or that, as he does from time to time, Mili pretended that he is the most discerning guy around, tough, worldly and not given to believing ANYTHING without rock-solid proof. 'It's a hard world out there, sweetheart...' You could almost hear a bad Bogart imitation. Then, typical Mili, he really exposes himself as a buffoon. In a thread below, Mili warns us of the prospect of a Maharaji lawsuit saying: Sorry to have to say this to you, but M has already had his share of lawsuits with his mother and brother, remember? He is not 'above it'. [snip] He does have a pretty good team of lawyers, you know.' Well, Mili, what do you actually know about any such lawsuits? Who filed them? How many? Was M plaintiff or defendant? How do youeven know they took place at all? But, even better, is your second point about the lawyers. How do you know what M has? How many lawyers, if any, does he have? What do they do for him? Who are they? What makes them good? How do you know anything at all of what you say? As I asked you below, either you have that special 'first-hand' knowledge you claim to never leave home without OR you're just trading in vague rumours like you say you NEVER do, or, worse, you're just making it up. Well? Then, in the thread below, Mili, who NEVER trades in rumours, says: I believe he made a conscious effort in the past to break away from the 'God' image that was turning many sincere people such as yourself away from what he had to say about the experience of Knowledge itself. Where's your proof Mili? Jim, Tell you what - let's make a deal. You send me the 'Lord of the Universe' album, and I'll send you the video cassette with the proof that you are looking for. OK? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:08:41 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Mili Subject: Re: No, THIS IS EVEN BETTER! (Re: Mili's stunning hypocrisy) Message: I knew if I waited a few hours he'd give me yet another example of ridiculous premie thinking. Yesterday, Mili posted at length, ridiculing anyone who believed the Mike Finch story about Maharaji giving him daredevil 'agya' to drive into oncoming traffic. Posturing this way or that, as he does from time to time, Mili pretended that he is the most discerning guy around, tough, worldly and not given to believing ANYTHING without rock-solid proof. 'It's a hard world out there, sweetheart...' You could almost hear a bad Bogart imitation. Then, typical Mili, he really exposes himself as a buffoon. In a thread below, Mili warns us of the prospect of a Maharaji lawsuit saying: Sorry to have to say this to you, but M has already had his share of lawsuits with his mother and brother, remember? He is not 'above it'. [snip] He does have a pretty good team of lawyers, you know.' Well, Mili, what do you actually know about any such lawsuits? Who filed them? How many? Was M plaintiff or defendant? How do youeven know they took place at all? But, even better, is your second point about the lawyers. How do you know what M has? How many lawyers, if any, does he have? What do they do for him? Who are they? What makes them good? How do you know anything at all of what you say? As I asked you below, either you have that special 'first-hand' knowledge you claim to never leave home without OR you're just trading in vague rumours like you say you NEVER do, or, worse, you're just making it up. Well? Then, in the thread below, Mili, who NEVER trades in rumours, says: I believe he made a conscious effort in the past to break away from the 'God' image that was turning many sincere people such as yourself away from what he had to say about the experience of Knowledge itself. Where's your proof Mili? Jim, Tell you what - let's make a deal. You send me the 'Lord of the Universe' album, and I'll send you the video cassette with the proof that you are looking for. OK? Tell you what - let's make a deal. You send me the 'Lord of the Universe' album, and I'll send you the video cassette with the proof that you are looking for. OK? My momma laways told me not to do internet trades with admitted liars. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:06:45 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Everyone Subject: Hey Kids! Message: Hey Kids! I love reading all your comments and debates and I love getting in the thick of it. However, Sunday begins the busiest week of the year for us priests (boo! hiss!), and I also have a few papers to finish for school, so I won't be posting for a few weeks. I'll meet you at the new improved Forum III in a few weeks. And for all my Premie friends who so love to quote scripture, a few lines from St. Paul: 'Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up' and 'I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.' A Blessed Holy Week to all! Fr. Michael (the Pharisee) Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:06:34 (EST)
Poster: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Hey Kids! Message: Hey Kids! I love reading all your comments and debates and I love getting in the thick of it. However, Sunday begins the busiest week of the year for us priests (boo! hiss!), and I also have a few papers to finish for school, so I won't be posting for a few weeks. I'll meet you at the new improved Forum III in a few weeks. And for all my Premie friends who so love to quote scripture, a few lines from St. Paul: 'Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up' and 'I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.' A Blessed Holy Week to all! Fr. Michael (the Pharisee) Thanks for the post, Michael. It was one of the last ones that I read today, and just reading it made me feel better. See you in a few weeks! Fondly, Katie Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 10:17:40 (EST)
Poster: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Why does M believe he is 'divine'? Message: I accept that the Knowledge and the techniques of Meditation is powerfull and has influenced me/ lifted me in a state of intoxication. However, I will not accept the Divine Status of M. I come from a Muslim tradition, and the worst thing that one can think or belief in is what is known as Shirk. This is associating with God someone/something other than God. The Islamic Tradition follows the same way as the Judia/Christian tradition, except when it comes to the Divine Status of Jesus. Again the same problem as M (however you can't compare the two . One lived a life of poverty and seclusion from the material world and M is totally the opposite). M explains this by saying that he is detached from this world, and so no material thing can affect him ( alcohol, cars, residences, opulence etc) like a Lotus in the Water. This concept of incarnation has its routes in the Hindu belief/philosophy that God can incarnate in the form of a Human being when evil and darkness prevails in the world. If you go to India today, there are approx. 100 Satgurus who claim they are divine incarnations ( at least 99 got to be lying) even if we assume that this incarnation business is true. The question is why does M believe that he is 'divine': I only have a partial answer to this: From the Age of 4/5 when his father died, he was surrounded by hundreds of Mahatmas and 100s thousands of Premies worshipping him and telling him he is a divine incarnation. If you do that to a kid at the age of 5 for 10 years or so, he will eventually believe it. Any kid not just M. Just imagine you are 5, and you are setting on a stage looking at 1/2 million people in front of you doing Arti and worshiping you. Then this thing about comming to the West to save the West. Premies had some really strange ideas, like in the Bible it says that he will come from the East to the West in something or another, and Premies interpreted that as the second comming in a Jumbo Jet. We even invited HRH Prince Charles and the Queen of England to Ms first public programme in the Royal Albert Hall. I saw the invitations to HRH . It was in the form of a Scroll stating that M has come to the West and HRH is invited to witness this event etc etc I really wondered what HRH thought of this. This was a bizzare idea of Ashokanand and Glen. Most of the Prophets that we know of were poor, beaten up , spat upon, rocks thrown at them, jeered by crowds, murdered etc etc. This Kingly and Princely life of a Master/Prophet only exists in the Hindu system: Krishna - Princely and Royal Rama - King So M believes that he is in the same line as those two. Well I dont... Sorry Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 11:18:47 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Salah Subject: Re: Why does M believe he is 'divine'? Message: Salah, You said that 'I accept that the Knowledge and the techniques of Meditation is powerfull and has influenced me/ lifted me in a state of intoxication.' Could you eleaborate on that a little bit? When did you receive Knowledge, and what kind of experiences did you have? Just curious. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:06:14 (EST)
Poster: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Mili Subject: Re: Why does M believe he is 'divine'? Message: Mili I received Knowledge in '71. For the first 10 years I really put a lot of practice, maybe 3-4 hours per day. My experiences then and I can still get those experiences now is : I experince deep intoxication. I hear a lot of these Harmonies ( almost like organs and bells playing inside me). I see white light inside. The feeling is so intense it is like making love to yourself. You just feel like exploding inside. The rythem of the breath starts to change to a pulsating energy that takes you over, and you start to go into an estatic mode. You also feel and experience a real space inside yourself. These kind of experiences I can still have today, but to be honest with you, I have done hardly no meditation in the last 10 years. What I am not willing to take on board is all this Divinity stuff, because I believe that only God is Divine. I dont buy this idea that God incarnates as a man. Regards Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:19:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Salah Subject: Re: Why does M believe he is 'divine'? Message: Mili I received Knowledge in '71. For the first 10 years I really put a lot of practice, maybe 3-4 hours per day. My experiences then and I can still get those experiences now is : I experince deep intoxication. I hear a lot of these Harmonies ( almost like organs and bells playing inside me). I see white light inside. The feeling is so intense it is like making love to yourself. You just feel like exploding inside. The rythem of the breath starts to change to a pulsating energy that takes you over, and you start to go into an estatic mode. You also feel and experience a real space inside yourself. These kind of experiences I can still have today, but to be honest with you, I have done hardly no meditation in the last 10 years. What I am not willing to take on board is all this Divinity stuff, because I believe that only God is Divine. I dont buy this idea that God incarnates as a man. Regards Salah, Thanks for the candid description. I know what you are talking about! I also do not believe in this idea that God incarnates as a man, because I am Jewish. I believe that the idea of 'God' is very much culturally and historically loaded. Still, I keep Maharaji very fondly to my heart. I believe he made a conscious effort in the past to break away from the 'God' image that was turning many sincere people such as yourself away from what he had to say about the experience of Knowledge itself. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:50:33 (EST)
Poster: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Mili Subject: Re: Guru is NOT Greater than GOD (Re: Why does M believe he is 'divine'?) Message: M Said that Guru is Greater then GOD because Guru reveals GOD Sorry but this is a Load of Nonsense By definition, no one is Greater then GOD How can a Guru reveals that which is Infinite . Lets make it realy clear what this Knowledge is NOT: It is NOT the Knowledge of GOD. Why? Because GOD can not be known, He can only by Himself show what He wishes of His Infinite Attributes. GOD is NOT the Knowledge or the Techniques. He is Infinite in every possible way. If you say GOD is this or that then you are limiting GOD If you say GOD is Energy then you are limiting GOD If you say GOD is a Being, then You are limiting GOD If you say GOD is within, then You are limiting GOD If you say GOD is without, then you are Limiting GOD Only GOD Knows Himself as He truly is in His totality What He shows to us of His attrbutes depends on each one of us and what state we are in. The Knowledge is the technqiues of Meditation which allows one to experience th subtle Substance within . It is NOT a Direct Experience of GOD. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:52:09 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Salah Subject: Thank you Salah (Re: Why does M believe he is 'divine'?) Message: Salah; thank you for these two posts. I certainly appreciate and can relate to your perspective and understanding. Regarding the meditation; I agree that it should not be seen as the knowledge og God. One could say that it is God in so far as everything is God and I do believe that meditation can give one a better understanding of what God is but certainly, God is more than what I experience in meditation! Of course, peace and pleasure sometimes found in meditation can be seen as an aspect or a glimpse of God's nature but I know it's just a small view, a hint, the same as when on a Spring day you walk through a wood and feel totally at peace with everything. Way before I received the knowledge I used to suddenly get overwhelming experiences of peace and joy for no apparent reason. I still get these experiences now, even if I don't meditate. My feeling is that too often on this forum the common ground of deep experience that we've had is too often forgotten or not talked about. We received the knowledge because we had a sense of something wonderful and we wanted to perceive it more. This common ground that we share is a wonderful thing. We must never forget this. Beyond all of this, there is God. I thinkmany of the ex-premies have felt that Maharaji was taking them away from any closeness to God. It is not good to be conned into believing that God has taken human form, when He has not. The always loving God will always love us. If I am reminded of that in a post here, then I am very grateful for the message. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:15:22 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Everyone Subject: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Everyone: I had to bring this discussion above the fold. Sorry about some obscure references to logicians and philosophers, but the claim by NV that we need to apply 'special logic' to the problem if whether GMJ is a thug is so bogus that it needs to be exposed and challenged directly. Just because someone has thought of something before doesn't make it invalid, though that sort of inversion is apparently part of the 'special logic' than Maharaji requires. We have seen it before. Prior posts: NV: You said: You use standard logic, ie: if A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C, right? It's not 'standard logic.' It's called 'transitivity,' and according to John Warfield who wrote the book on complexity and logic, transitivity holds for most relationships and conditions. There are certainly some non-transitive relationships, though. Atilla loves Betty, and Betty loves Genghis, therefore Atilla loves Genghis. Doesn't quite cut it. But how does non-transitivity apply in this case? Multiple residences are self serving (in most cases... true). MJ has multiple residences (in this case... true). There is a strong probability that MJ is self-serving. What alternative explanation do you have to offer that would reduce the probability? -Scott > Multiple residences means he spends MOST of his life travelling and it is far more efficient to have 'base camps' already established around the world than to fly back to California when he needs to. A jet means he spends MOST of his life travelling and he couldn't reach the people he does with the frequency he does without having this mobility. Look I really don't know who John Warfield is re; the validity of transivity. And I don't know why you would automatically believe what he has to say. For most arguments you can find a theory supported by 'facts' somewhere upon which to base your propositions. But if you've had any exposure to scientific process you know that 'facts' are regularly bent to support a researcher's hypothesis. So yes Scott, the law of transivity doesn't hold in this case. The lesson is you just can't let a theorem do your thinking for you. And another thing, please don't bring probability into the argument as reliable baseline. Lottery winners and plane crash victims defy the odds of probability everyday. My response to NV: John Warfield is University Professor in Interactive Management and, independently of R. Buckminster Fuller, discovered principles of Comprehensive Design Science. The common link is probably an American Pragmatist philosopher in the last century named Charles Sanders Peirce (pronounced 'purse') To put it another way, he spends his time 'exploding' the concept that specialized disciplines and domains deserve their own specialized logic (which appears to be your point). I don't automatically accept everything he says but he has conducted about 30 years worth of workshops for manufacturing firms, governments, think tanks, citizen groups and the military and finds very few instances where a practical problem is non-transitive. The small percentage of non-transitive problems usually have to do with personal relationships of the kind I mention previously. The problem of whether or not Maharaji is self serving is transitive, although you have suggested some other elements in the causal chain that may be relevant. But those are transitive too. The conclusion (which is not merely what you choose to believe, but is based upon a group dynamic that is by definition probabilistic) is determined by the weight placed on each link in the causal chain. We know how you assign weights, and we therefore know your 'foregone' conclusion. I venture to say that the links in your particular version all carry weights of 1 or a probability of 100%. Of course, if you're applying 'non-standard' logic they may have a probability of 150%, 200% or whatever. MJ does, in fact, travel a lot. However, I believe he travels a lot because he is self-serving. I place that probability at greater than 95%. Others would place it higher. Why do we say that? Because there is another causal chain suggesting this conclusion, having to do with why he needs things like golden shitters, etc. Why he drinks too much. Why he doesn't meditate. Why he never has a kind word for anyone. Why he frequently harms people without remorse. Why he never makes a tough decision. Why he never apologizes for mistakes. Why he never acknowledges mistakes. Why he never assumed any financial responsibility for any of his Ashrams and their residents. etc., etc. Why he sent Padarthanand back to India rather than face assault [or murder?] charges in the US. Those are all potentially evidence of non-self-centeredness. Name one instance were he meets the standard? One. Just one. Still, he might have good intentions. I'll tell you what... give him a quarter for me, and tell him to go to hell. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:56:36 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Gee, thanks for making it so clear. Where was my head at... Scott, after your long-winded treatise on the merits and credentials of the source of your reference material, you say one thing that makes any argument henceforth that you put forward crash and burn; and I quote you: '...I believe he travels a lot because he is self-serving.' The words in your quote that tell the tale are 'I BELIEVE'. So big deal, Scott believes. Now I'm sure your belief is based on the 'facts' you cite, re; drinking, meditating, kind words, etc., upon WHAT are you basing them Scott? I happen to know he likes Cognac, he DOES meditate, have heard with my own ears many VERY kind words about others, have never seen him intentionally harm ANYONE, have heard him admit to mistakes, and on and on... So Scott tell me, upon what besides 'I BELIEVE' are you basing your fancy theories about Maharaji? Or, like the many other 'experts' in this field, are you getting all your 'facts' from this forum. Nice to hear from you again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:59:54 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Gee, thanks for making it so clear. Where was my head at... Scott, after your long-winded treatise on the merits and credentials of the source of your reference material, you say one thing that makes any argument henceforth that you put forward crash and burn; and I quote you: '...I believe he travels a lot because he is self-serving.' The words in your quote that tell the tale are 'I BELIEVE'. So big deal, Scott believes. Now I'm sure your belief is based on the 'facts' you cite, re; drinking, meditating, kind words, etc., upon WHAT are you basing them Scott? I happen to know he likes Cognac, he DOES meditate, have heard with my own ears many VERY kind words about others, have never seen him intentionally harm ANYONE, have heard him admit to mistakes, and on and on... So Scott tell me, upon what besides 'I BELIEVE' are you basing your fancy theories about Maharaji? Or, like the many other 'experts' in this field, are you getting all your 'facts' from this forum. Nice to hear from you again. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:08:11 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex Email: To: NV Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: One of my best ex-premie friend has been doing service at the malibu residence (and living there with her family) for years. I have no reason to think she's lying to me. She says (amongst other stories) that almost everytime Mr Rawat comes back home, he is very pissed of and shouts at everyboody. She finally left in total disgust, whilst she was a very devoted one, and 'friend' with the family. Even premies who come to do service are briefed about it by the one in charge of organizing the teams. This is supposed to be some sort of 'Lila', divine guru game. If, by any chance, you know some premies you trust (no exes) who have been there for a while, why don't you ask them to confirm this? Sorry but this is no rumor. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:32:59 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Mr Ex Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: I've heard stories like that of your friend, and have been on the receiving end of like behavior. My challenge to Scott is that he took your story and stretched it into a constant state of being for the man. You and I both know that it's just not. Bottom line Ex is he may make a completely unlikeable neighbor but as someone who can show something true about yourself, he's the best. In all honesty, would you even have the basis to continue meditating if he hadn't been your guide for as long as he was? As to why he does what he does... I'm not going to explain it away with the lila crap because I don't have a clue what the difference is between a lila and an event in one's life. I just know one tiny little thing: He has shown me something immense inside of myself, and as much as I've tried in my own way to disassociate that immensity from him, I keep coming back to him and he keeps showing me more. Can't explain it but it's true - cross my heart. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:01:49 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: NV Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: I believe you NV! It's refreshing that you don't seem to need to wholly whitewash this 'Maharaji's behaviour' criticism that we hear so much of. I respect your bottom line that despite all the 'hard to accept' stuff you still feel he is the fellow who 'showed you something immense inside'. Your faith is stronger than a lot of people. Not that I think that this is a particularly noble achievement I'm afraid. I think that the bottom line for others such as myself, is that they have begun to suspect that the impression that M is responsible for, or is the Master of, such immense feelings, is possibly a delusion that comes upon one as a result of suggestion and wishful thinking. These 'hard to accept' things, that we learn of first-hand or second-hand, serve to reinforce the feelings of mistrust. That's all. I keep an open mind but currently I am not prepared to invest so much trust, or time, in Maharaji whilst I have so many unresolved questions and misgivings. As for your statement 'I keep coming back to him and he keeps showing me more'. My experience is that yes, he showed me more...more of the same over the years, but it somehow hasn't been quite enough. My upliftment and feelings of inspiration were gradually marred by the things that didn't sit so well with my conscience. I definitely needed to back off and take an honest look at things. What I want to know is why premies generally feel that the world should only see the bright side. I personally don't have anything against people speaking, or defending their beliefs or experiences of Maharaji and Knowledge but equally I think it is perfectly healthy to know as much as possible about someone who asks so much faith and commitment from his followers, before or after getting involved. I feel more committed to the finding the truth, not less, which is why I am interested to see the hitherto ignored dark side, as it were, of Maharaji's world. ie: This Website! where all the casualties of the whole thing...OK ..the people who didn't make the required steps...or those who question the unquestionable..or those who feel sad and lost despite Knowledge...those who plainly loathe Maharaji..those who have just turned completely against Maharaji...and all those who are undecided...come to pour out their misgivings or rant angrily. This 'boil' on Maharaji's hitherto relatively unblemished face (metaphorically speaking of course) seems to me to be, merely and naturally, symptomatic of the discontent that some people really do feel. If such reactions weren't brushed under the carpet and were addressed properly by M, then nature would not have produced this 'boil' which premies and Maharaji himself so clearly wish that people did not see. I personally feel very compromised here because I too have heard stuff about Maharaji which I would not repeat here. In some ways I don't want to believe what I have heard but I am curious to see if these things are corroborated by others. I am not likely to learn of these things at an event! For me these things can be looked at as very bad reflections on Maharaji the man, and I could ignore them, wanting to see M as my spiritual Master alone, but my conscience will not allow me to do so. I want to know Maharaji warts and all! I am not dismissing him just because people say he drinks Cognac! or shouts everybody down when he gets home or has a mistress etc. However it does blow some concepts. I thought that was supposed to be a good thing! I don't agree that it is being a malicious gossip to seek such information. I see it as being an extention of the attitude I had for years whereby I longed to learn of details of my masters daily life, for there I would find a rich source of parables from which to draw inspiration. In short, I am seeking the truth about him as an everyday person. I value the inner experience I have had since being a premie, and I am aware of the extent to which Maharaji has reminded me to maintain this practice. However in my judgement it seems quite possible that such inner peace is not so inextricably or singularly tied up with Maharaji, the man, as I once believed. Also I long for a gentler inspiration which doesn't involve sitting sadly in a crowd of strangers, being repeatedly scolded in piercing tones for not being grateful enough to Maharaji. I find that grating I'm afraid. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:07:23 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: NV Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: I've heard stories like that of your friend, and have been on the receiving end of like behavior. My challenge to Scott is that he took your story and stretched it into a constant state of being for the man. You and I both know that it's just not. Bottom line Ex is he may make a completely unlikeable neighbor but as someone who can show something true about yourself, he's the best. In all honesty, would you even have the basis to continue meditating if he hadn't been your guide for as long as he was? As to why he does what he does... I'm not going to explain it away with the lila crap because I don't have a clue what the difference is between a lila and an event in one's life. I just know one tiny little thing: He has shown me something immense inside of myself, and as much as I've tried in my own way to disassociate that immensity from him, I keep coming back to him and he keeps showing me more. Can't explain it but it's true - cross my heart. Okay, NV, you know all the scuttlebutt about Maharaji and it doesn't bother you. You know about the lavish lifestyle and all his material excesses and it doesn't matter. You know about his abusive behavior and his drinking and it doesn't matter. To tell you the truth, that isn't my major concern either. But the kind of 'guide' or perhaps 'distraction' Maharaji might be to someone is a very subjective thing. I would never attempt to argue with your subjective experience either, and you shouldn't try to argue with mine, it is kind of a waste of time. And if a premie says he or she is having a good experience following Maharaji, and they believe he is some kind of a supreme being and worthy of being worshipped, they are entitled to that. And if another person says that they had a terrible experience and that they believe Maharaji is a fraud, well I accept that too. Statistics show that some people continue to follow Maharaji, but the vast majority of people who receive knowledge don't. Perhaps people just outgrow Maharaji and it's time to move on and others don't feel that way. I just think it is very important for people to hear that there is another side to the story Maharaji and the premies spout, and to look at both sides before getting involved or staying involved. And I think they should be aware that there are some of us who followed M for years and felt we were out of touch with our true selves while we followed him, and that we wasted a number of years of our lives and hurt a lot of people who mean a lot to us while we did it. I was also very good at overlooking all the problems I had with Maharaji as a person and how he violated a lot of my values that I had held for a long time. Each person can make their own evaluation about those things, and as I said below, I think most people will draw the most obvious conclusions if just presented the information. I would have been grateful if a forum like this was available 25 years ago when I, as a kid really, got involved and tossed my life away for years to follow him. And after I was involved, it would have been nice if there was some support for me to express what I was really feeling, which was Maharaji's trip was not working for me. It wasn't all a negative experience, but it certainly wasn't worth it. Finally, I think some people need to give testimony as to where Maharaji as been and what he has said in the past, because I think he has made a concerted effort to cover that up and I don't think that is acceptable. Again, with complete information, people can make up their own minds. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:20:04 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: I believe you NV! It's refreshing that you don't seem to need to wholly whitewash this 'Maharaji's behaviour' criticism that we hear so much of. I respect your bottom line that despite all the 'hard to accept' stuff you still feel he is the fellow who 'showed you something immense inside'. Your faith is stronger than a lot of people. Not that I think that this is a particularly noble achievement I'm afraid. I think that the bottom line for others such as myself, is that they have begun to suspect that the impression that M is responsible for, or is the Master of, such immense feelings, is possibly a delusion that comes upon one as a result of suggestion and wishful thinking. These 'hard to accept' things, that we learn of first-hand or second-hand, serve to reinforce the feelings of mistrust. That's all. I keep an open mind but currently I am not prepared to invest so much trust, or time, in Maharaji whilst I have so many unresolved questions and misgivings. As for your statement 'I keep coming back to him and he keeps showing me more'. My experience is that yes, he showed me more...more of the same over the years, but it somehow hasn't been quite enough. My upliftment and feelings of inspiration were gradually marred by the things that didn't sit so well with my conscience. I definitely needed to back off and take an honest look at things. What I want to know is why premies generally feel that the world should only see the bright side. I personally don't have anything against people speaking, or defending their beliefs or experiences of Maharaji and Knowledge but equally I think it is perfectly healthy to know as much as possible about someone who asks so much faith and commitment from his followers, before or after getting involved. I feel more committed to the finding the truth, not less, which is why I am interested to see the hitherto ignored dark side, as it were, of Maharaji's world. ie: This Website! where all the casualties of the whole thing...OK ..the people who didn't make the required steps...or those who question the unquestionable..or those who feel sad and lost despite Knowledge...those who plainly loathe Maharaji..those who have just turned completely against Maharaji...and all those who are undecided...come to pour out their misgivings or rant angrily. This 'boil' on Maharaji's hitherto relatively unblemished face (metaphorically speaking of course) seems to me to be, merely and naturally, symptomatic of the discontent that some people really do feel. If such reactions weren't brushed under the carpet and were addressed properly by M, then nature would not have produced this 'boil' which premies and Maharaji himself so clearly wish that people did not see. I personally feel very compromised here because I too have heard stuff about Maharaji which I would not repeat here. In some ways I don't want to believe what I have heard but I am curious to see if these things are corroborated by others. I am not likely to learn of these things at an event! For me these things can be looked at as very bad reflections on Maharaji the man, and I could ignore them, wanting to see M as my spiritual Master alone, but my conscience will not allow me to do so. I want to know Maharaji warts and all! I am not dismissing him just because people say he drinks Cognac! or shouts everybody down when he gets home or has a mistress etc. However it does blow some concepts. I thought that was supposed to be a good thing! I don't agree that it is being a malicious gossip to seek such information. I see it as being an extention of the attitude I had for years whereby I longed to learn of details of my masters daily life, for there I would find a rich source of parables from which to draw inspiration. In short, I am seeking the truth about him as an everyday person. I value the inner experience I have had since being a premie, and I am aware of the extent to which Maharaji has reminded me to maintain this practice. However in my judgement it seems quite possible that such inner peace is not so inextricably or singularly tied up with Maharaji, the man, as I once believed. Also I long for a gentler inspiration which doesn't involve sitting sadly in a crowd of strangers, being repeatedly scolded in piercing tones for not being grateful enough to Maharaji. I find that grating I'm afraid. Fair comments Anon. I think we have all run the gammit of questions, concerns, stories, and doubt. We each react differently based on a number of factors such as honesty, depth of experience, thirst to know one's self, intellegence, common sense, to name a few. The mix of each of these ingredients in each one of us contributes to the conclusions we draw about Maharaji, and the direction we take in our lives. Another thing, if as you say this website is a boil, then I have no doubt it will eventually pop. One comment. I don't know when the last time you attended an event, but I haven't been screamed at for years. Matter of fact I used to like it when M would 'talk straight'. Just don't hear him do it much these days. Take care. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:23:11 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: JW Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: I've heard stories like that of your friend, and have been on the receiving end of like behavior. My challenge to Scott is that he took your story and stretched it into a constant state of being for the man. You and I both know that it's just not. Bottom line Ex is he may make a completely unlikeable neighbor but as someone who can show something true about yourself, he's the best. In all honesty, would you even have the basis to continue meditating if he hadn't been your guide for as long as he was? As to why he does what he does... I'm not going to explain it away with the lila crap because I don't have a clue what the difference is between a lila and an event in one's life. I just know one tiny little thing: He has shown me something immense inside of myself, and as much as I've tried in my own way to disassociate that immensity from him, I keep coming back to him and he keeps showing me more. Can't explain it but it's true - cross my heart. Okay, NV, you know all the scuttlebutt about Maharaji and it doesn't bother you. You know about the lavish lifestyle and all his material excesses and it doesn't matter. You know about his abusive behavior and his drinking and it doesn't matter. To tell you the truth, that isn't my major concern either. But the kind of 'guide' or perhaps 'distraction' Maharaji might be to someone is a very subjective thing. I would never attempt to argue with your subjective experience either, and you shouldn't try to argue with mine, it is kind of a waste of time. And if a premie says he or she is having a good experience following Maharaji, and they believe he is some kind of a supreme being and worthy of being worshipped, they are entitled to that. And if another person says that they had a terrible experience and that they believe Maharaji is a fraud, well I accept that too. Statistics show that some people continue to follow Maharaji, but the vast majority of people who receive knowledge don't. Perhaps people just outgrow Maharaji and it's time to move on and others don't feel that way. I just think it is very important for people to hear that there is another side to the story Maharaji and the premies spout, and to look at both sides before getting involved or staying involved. And I think they should be aware that there are some of us who followed M for years and felt we were out of touch with our true selves while we followed him, and that we wasted a number of years of our lives and hurt a lot of people who mean a lot to us while we did it. I was also very good at overlooking all the problems I had with Maharaji as a person and how he violated a lot of my values that I had held for a long time. Each person can make their own evaluation about those things, and as I said below, I think most people will draw the most obvious conclusions if just presented the information. I would have been grateful if a forum like this was available 25 years ago when I, as a kid really, got involved and tossed my life away for years to follow him. And after I was involved, it would have been nice if there was some support for me to express what I was really feeling, which was Maharaji's trip was not working for me. It wasn't all a negative experience, but it certainly wasn't worth it. Finally, I think some people need to give testimony as to where Maharaji as been and what he has said in the past, because I think he has made a concerted effort to cover that up and I don't think that is acceptable. Again, with complete information, people can make up their own minds. Consider your side heard JW. Now can we get on with our lives? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:30:23 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: NV Subject: NV, you are not worth taking on. (Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic) Message: Regarding: The words in your quote that tell the tale are 'I BELIEVE'. So big deal, Scott believes. God, you are an idiot. That's the first time I've ever referred to anyone on this forum in such a manner, but it is warranted. 'I believe' because I don't know for sure. It's simply a way of presenting an hypothesis. It's not proof of anything. Do you know, or care about, the distinction? At this point I think you are just wildly obfuscating. Even if you wanted to carry on a discourse you simply wouldn't know how. 'I believe,' like that was the crux of some argument or something. Shit. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:31:12 (EST)
Poster: Anon Email: To: NV Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Another thing, if as you say this website is a boil, then I have no doubt it will eventually pop. That'll be a relief. One comment. I don't know when the last time you attended an event, but I haven't been screamed at for years. Matter of fact I used to like it when M would 'talk straight'. Just don't hear him do it much these days. It's been a couple of years since I went to an event. I bet he still screams...he can't have just stopped in the last two years! I remember liking it too in a masochistic sort of way when Maharaji gave heavy satsang to us in the past. I got fed up 'liking being miserable' in the end! That's the truth. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:02:57 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re:Sorry you feel that way Scott (Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic) Message: Regarding: The words in your quote that tell the tale are 'I BELIEVE'. So big deal, Scott believes. God, you are an idiot. That's the first time I've ever referred to anyone on this forum in such a manner, but it is warranted. 'I believe' because I don't know for sure. It's simply a way of presenting an hypothesis. It's not proof of anything. Do you know, or care about, the distinction? At this point I think you are just wildly obfuscating. Even if you wanted to carry on a discourse you simply wouldn't know how. 'I believe,' like that was the crux of some argument or something. Shit. -Scott Scott, you'll forgive me for not sinking to your depth and getting into a shit fight with you. You called me an idiot!! Glad I could be the first. Shall we celebrate? Smoke a cigarette? Believe me Scotty my man, if you wanted to carry on a conversation I think I could belly up to the bar for it. If we were to do so, I WOULD however want a clear distinction between what is 'truth' and what is 'belief'. Do you know they are not one and the same? And I want to make it clear that beliefs that are predicated on third hand 'facts' are of even less relevance than those based on a direct experience. Am I making any sense yet Scott? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 20:50:35 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: NV Subject: That's OK. My expectations were simply too high. (Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic) Message: Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 21:51:18 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Anon Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Another thing, if as you say this website is a boil, then I have no doubt it will eventually pop. That'll be a relief. One comment. I don't know when the last time you attended an event, but I haven't been screamed at for years. Matter of fact I used to like it when M would 'talk straight'. Just don't hear him do it much these days. It's been a couple of years since I went to an event. I bet he still screams...he can't have just stopped in the last two years! I remember liking it too in a masochistic sort of way when Maharaji gave heavy satsang to us in the past. I got fed up 'liking being miserable' in the end! That's the truth. Anon and NV, You are helping to restore my faith in discussion without flaming -thank you for those last four posts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:41:50 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: NV Subject: Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic Message: Don't be so conceited, NV. As I said before, you are NOT the audience I'm concerned with. So, some of us just sorta gotta keep the information out there, ya know? Glad you heard my side of the story, but then, who cares? And I haven't ever stopped 'getting on' with my life. So, that isn't an issue for me, not since I left the cult 15 years ago. As for your life, your free to go back to whatever it is at anytime. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 4, 1998 at 00:45:04 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: NV Subject: Re:Sorry you feel that way Scott (Re: NV's 'non-standard' logic) Message: NV, the straw men you keep throwing up there just don't cut it. I reiterate what Robyn already asked you. Exactly what 'third hand facts' are you talking about. You yourself have admitted the drinking and the abusive behavior. By and large the ex-premies speak of their own experience and what they saw with their own eyes. Again, please be specific. What 'facts' do you, in fact, disupute? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 06:29:31 (EST)
Poster: Ken Hansen Email: kenzmb@webtv.net To: Everyone Subject: looking for Bob Fisk Message: Me and karen and lisa and lori are wondering how and where you are. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 07:58:43 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Ken Hansen Subject: Re: looking for Bob Fisk Message: Me and karen and lisa and lori are wondering how and where you are. Ken: Don't know if this is the right guy, but it's the only email for Bob Fisk in the UK: Bob Fisk E-Mail Address: bob@bfisk.demon.co.uk -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 05:50:10 (EST)
Poster: Salah Email: salah_h@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Does anyone know Charles Cameron? Message: Charles was one of the most gifted poets and early premies that I got to Know. Weird and brilliant with a sharp mind and intellect. Here is one of his Poems which I still remember from those early days: Will it take a Black Rolls Royce With Flowers on its Roof To Furnish us with Proof That We must die Unless we hear the everlasting Truth Great guy and dazziling sharp mind/intellect/humour. I first met him in 71 when he just got back from Africa(Morroco). He was wearing the African Sufi Woolen gown. His then friend Julie used to come to the Ashram with Poems that he has written for her hanging from her jacket. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:08:52 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Salah Subject: Re: Does anyone know Charles Cameron? Message: Salah: In '74, he came and stayed for a few weeks where I was living. The most significant aspect of his visit was his non-stop talking. Finally this guy said to him something like 'Charles, for anyone who talks as much as you do, 80% of it has got to be bs.' That really shut him up for about 30 seconds. But I really liked him. Outrageous people are fun. He gave a poetry reading at a local bookstore, and the audience was very receptive to him. I imagine him teaching at some small college somewhere, but I have no idea as I have not seen or heard of him since. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 23:25:27 (EST)
Poster: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Salah Subject: Re: Does anyone know Charles Cameron? Message: I used to live with Charles at 1560 Race Street ashram in Denver around 1975. He's a very cool guy, and indeed a wonderful poet. I don't think he's really into M. much anymore. He's out in the LA area now, married with a daughter, and still writes wonderful poetry (I have some of his recent work). I found him online recently, and he's devised some sort of game one can play on the internet, based on Herman Hesse's Glass Bead Game. If anyone's interested in communicating with him, I guess I'd feel okay about forwarding his e-mail address. Write to me privately and I'll see, okay? --Joy Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 23:57:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Joy Subject: Apparently Charles Cameron don't know no Maharaji (Re: Does anyone know Charles Cameron?) Message: I used to live with Charles at 1560 Race Street ashram in Denver around 1975. He's a very cool guy, and indeed a wonderful poet. I don't think he's really into M. much anymore. He's out in the LA area now, married with a daughter, and still writes wonderful poetry (I have some of his recent work). I found him online recently, and he's devised some sort of game one can play on the internet, based on Herman Hesse's Glass Bead Game. If anyone's interested in communicating with him, I guess I'd feel okay about forwarding his e-mail address. Write to me privately and I'll see, okay? --Joy I did a search for Charles' Glass Bead Game and found it easily enough. His personal bio reads as follows: In 1964 or thereabouts, I took a young Tibetan lama, Trungpa Rimpoche, on a semi-formal visit to Prinknash Abbey, a Benedictine Catholic monastery in southern England. Trungpa later wrote (Born in Tibet) that this visit 'strongly encouraged him,' and that it 'demonstrated that the contemplative life could be carried out in the West.' Shortly after, Trungpa founded the first Tibetan monastic community in the West, Samye Ling, in Scotland. In 1978, I introduced the Lakota shaman Wallace Black Elk to Dr William S Lyon, professor of anthropology at Southern Oregon State College, Ashland, OR, and the three of us co-taught an award winning course in the construction and ceremonial use of the traditional Lakota sweat lodge. The course was repeated for six or seven years. Under Black Elk's instructions, I 'poured water' for many ceremonial sweats. Participants soon began to request Black Elk to guide them on personal Vision Quests, and Ashland quietly became a native American ceremonial center. Until recently, a Lakota Sun Dance has been held there each year under Wallace Black Elk's direction. I have been a sort of 'godfather', then, to the development of Tibetan Buddhist monastic centers in Europe and America, and a Lakota ceremonial Sun Dance in Oregon. Hmmmm..... maybe it's the wrong Charles Cameron, I thought. How could Maharaji have not even gotten an honourable mention? I mean didn't Charles write some of that AIID article where Black Elk is used as yet another 'prophet' of Maharaji? But, of course, it was Charles alright. You can see in his C.V. how he's making money off Maharaji: The Inner Game of Music. Barry Green and W Timothy Gallwey. Application of Inner Game principles to coaching and learning of music. Called in to ghost write final version. Doubleday, 1986. Also wrote 6 Inner Game of Music Workbooks, 1991-94. For some reason, though, he just doesn't mention him. Unless, of course, this entry is meant to mean a little something special: And The Center for Millennial Studies, a 'think tank' on apocalyptic culture of which I am an Associate. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 00:31:39 (EST)
Poster: *Vacol* Email: To: *Everyone* Subject: *My Testimony*.....part Six Message: *It seems for so many premies...there is a mistrust of themselves and each other when it comes to really sharing from the depths.. the deepest feelings and thoughts. Why are there so many closet premies? Certainly,inwardness is a fundamental aspect of k,but M is a prime example of how dymamic the balance between internal and external can be. Is it not? I must ask, how much of my criticisms are actually linked to M himself? This ex-premie site has actually opened out some interesting avenues of thought and some speculations. One thing is for sure; I havn't experienced M at close quarters (except in the darshand line so I cannot speak from that perspective. But I have experienced 15 years of intimate closeness to an Indian Gure,co-currently with M in my life....and perhaps there are insights I've gained that are at least generally applicable to M. People who are attracted to Guru's are often seeking and needing help ; and often have low self-esteems and little deep confidence. The ones who think they know and are confident tend to not be so inclined to seek guidance. And this can help to create a culture of somewhat subserviant and overly passive collective energy, gathering around the super-confident and self-assured Teacher-Guru , M in this case. An apperent gulf then can be spawned between the Master and the followers. This happened on a smaller scale around Swamiji, but because of the very personal level of interaction between him and others, a type of multi-dimensional intimacy developed ....that facilitated a lessening of the gulf. And yet so many people who met S at close quarters, rejected him...and why would not the same thing happen to M. It's very personal. I learnt that S was very human ....so it is with M too. They eat and drink ; they visit the toilet ; sometimes they get carried away or commit the crime of losing perspective or of being like little children , childlike and simple. S and M are not spiritual; they are what they are. But many premies and ex-premies project images onto such ones that are of their own making. So, does M over-evaluate himself? Is he too much the God-man? As the ex-instructor admitted, M really does believe in his divine status. Well, guess what? So do I. And in my divine status too, and in everyones too.....Divine and human!!!* Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 06:26:54 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: *Vacol* Subject: Re: *My Testimony*.....part Six Message: Much of this attraction to Maharaji thing can be put down as hype. When I first went to satsang I just wanted to receive the knowledge. I did receive it about two weeks later. That was great; I had the techniques and now I could meditate which I did with pleasure. But I was continually being told that I should feel devotion to Maharaji. I had not seen Maharaji nor even heard his voice so I felt absolutely nothing for this distant guru guy. When I did eventually see him arrive at Heathrow airport in the summer of '72 I still felt absolutely zilch. I felt love and some devotion to Prakash Bai Ji who gave me knowledge and some love for some premies like Glen Whittaker but Maharaji meant nothing to me. The songs of love to him meant nothing to me either. Now I was told that devotion would come later. So I kind of forced it. I tried to make myself love Maharaji. I can honestly say that only twice have I felt love for Maharaji while being in his close proximity. Once was with him in his back garden and the other was in a darshan. Now I never was an adoring lovestruck premie. I could never look forward to seeing him, because I didn't. In the end I realised that it was just hype that I was trying to buy and I stopped trying to love him. How many premies, I wonder, were pulled along on a magic carpet of hype? And if you don't go with the hype, there's no room for you in Maharaji's world. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:45:51 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: *Vacol* Subject: Re: *My Testimony*.....part Six Message: Vacol, You said: People who are attracted to Guru's are often seeking and needing help ; and often have low self-esteems and little deep confidence. The ones who think they know and are confident tend to not be so inclined to seek guidance. And this can help to create a culture of somewhat subserviant and overly passive collective energy, gathering around the er-confident and self-assured Teacher-Guru , M in this case. I was just thinking about something along these lines conserning my initial involvment in M and K. I grew up with a violent but very Catholic mother which brought me, through a tramatic experience, at a very early age (9-10) to cast aside her moral teachings and to build my own. This also caused me to reject the Catholic religion and eventually all institutionalized religions. And that brought me, in my thoughts last night back to an earlier thread about feeling thankful for an abusive person in your life in a position of power over you, M in many cases, my mom in mine. It seems from that realization that I would be very self sufficient and independant and I am that type of thinker but I have always had more trouble taking strong actions in my life and I think that is directly resulting from the experience in my childhood of my mother being extreemly controlling in little day to day things, when and how I cleaned or dressed or recreated (that's rec ree ated not re created). And I think it is that source of doubt or low selfesteem that allowed me to get as involved as I did in DLM. I think the independant thinker usually wins out as it did in my experience with DLM but the other has caused me to look toward others for confirmation of my feeling like I am doing OK day to day. This is part of the push now in my life in working on myself. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:58:17 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Robyn Subject: Re: *My Testimony*.....part Six Message: Robyn, On the same topic of cult followers having low self esteem, when I was young I was not lacking in this area one bit! I guess this is true for some and not for others. I just wanted to know God and to see 'the knowledge that Jesus revealed'. I was told that only Maharaji could give this knowledge, so I guess you could say, he was the means to an end. Memphis Belle's post about seeking God, but not Maharaji rings true with me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 10:09:06 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: VP Subject: Re: *My Testimony*.....part Six Message: Hey VP, I'll have to find and read Belle's post. But you didn't get sucked in and you had good self esteem so I think that helps prove the point. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:14:21 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: My response to Jim's response Message: Jim said: >> NV, I DO talk to you the way I'd like to be talked to. Straight. Direct. That's how I like to discuss things. How about you? I condescend to you because I don't respect your communciation so far because, so far, all you've done is obfuscate, whine and whither. Stop doing that, talk clearly and directly and I will indeed respect you. I'm a sucker for that stuff. You suffer from such typical cult problems. You've been carrying this big security blanket called Maharaji all these years and now you say that maybe you'd consider giving it up if I could show you a better one. NV, did it ever occur to you that there might not be any valid security blankets? Evolutionary psychology is a way to try to understand what we are and how we got that way. Who said anything about satisfying your every urge. I like your premiespeak about 'a part of' you. Ah yes, I remember. 'A part of me' this and 'a part of me' that. (Almost as weird as the extremely duplicitous way anti-intellectual ignoramus Maharaji, unwilling to concede that thought was part of everything we do -- yes even meditate! -- tried to shove all sorts of stuff that didn't fit under the rubric of 'experience'). Anyway, if you like meditation, great. Go for it. I'm thinking I don't do enough of it myself. But don't think there's some sport of divinity inside waiting for you to 'come home' to the ocean of love. That's just wishful thinking. That's Maharaji's religious plug stuck to the side of a very simple pleasure, the pleasure of focussing your mind on simple life, away from the business of the neocortex. Or something like that. You asked why I mentioned 'grace' when you hadn't. Do you believe in it? Yes or no? If so, do you believe Maharaji has it to give? Yes or no? You say you like 'intellecutal thought'. (What is that? Another premieism? 'Intellectual thought'. Ha. It sounds so exotic, so precious. Well, whatever.) Good. Are you really interested inlearning something? Forget about the 'part' of you that wants to meditate. Let it meditate. But if you want to learn some stuff beyond what you'll get in the fantasy chamber of your own brain and the emptiness of Maharaji's ramblings, I can turn you on to some good titles. Let me know. >> Jim What the hell are you talking about 'whine, wither, obfuscate (don't have my dictionary handy for that one). I could say the same about you. Man how you whine and whine and whine. This forum is little more than a byproduct of your whining. You whine about why he said something 25 years ago. Whine about why he made changes along the way. Whine about why he 'MADE' you live in the ashram. Whine about how he 'MADE' you support his work. Whine about why you 'HAD' to hang around people who were weird. Geez, you're too much. And you say YOU talk straight? Come on, don't be mislead by the grandiose opinions your fellow forum participants have of you, or those of your own. Your tactic is to slip and slide away from a thoughtful argument by name-calling and condescension. Then there's your knee-jerk reaction to disallow anything around a premie's 'experience' as 'premie-speak' just because you've already processed it into a pigeon-hole. I could also start slipping and sliding away from your questions by labelling your schlock as 'ex-premie-speak'. Because pal, you guys are a cult unto yourselves. As for your INCREDIBLE explanation of my experience (as if you'd know), and I quote: '…don't think there's some sport of divinity inside waiting for you to 'come home' to the ocean of love. That's just wishful thinking. That's Maharaji's religious plug stuck to the side of a very simple pleasure, the pleasure of focussing your mind on simple life, away from the business of the neocortex. Or something like that.' … From where I stand, you are one of the biggest… okay, I don't want to get into name-calling… let's just say I laugh and laugh at the smugness and pride with which you expose your ignorance. I'm embarrassed for you!! Really. Next thing, you're going to give a metabolic explaination for why the feeling of love feels like it does? So Jim, I want you to point out (without all the smart-assed bravado) where I'm not being straight with you. And do it without using my acceptance of Maharaji and the experience of Knowledge as a de facto basis for dishonesty. So show me big guy. Oh yeah, in answer to your question: I do believe in grace. I don't know how it works, but it does. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:31:42 (EST)
Poster: Mark Email: To: NV Subject: Re: My response to Jim's response Message: You know, there are a million different reasons people surrender their lives to perceived superior 'divine'personalities. And I would think that each and every one of them has some sort of incredible experience surrendering control of their lives, be it to Jesus, Krishna , or whoever. Including Mr. Rawat. . . And no ex-premie can make that devotional experience invalid. Most Meditation techniques when practiced in a disciplined and/or loving manner will induce a reality much richer and expanded than the day to day. No ex-premie can invalidate a meditational experience. HOWEVER- Mr. Rawat was the very first Indian Guru to arrive and annouce himself THE SAVIOR, and with the arrogence/ ignorance of a 15 year old, actually buy his own marketing! And, innocent as we were of the intricacies of integrating good meditation techniques with the Lord of the Universe message, we all bought it too. What we bought was a Belief System. or a B.S.as I now call it. It became the principal organizing thought of our existence. We were not alone in this . Look around. Behold a planet populated with a race of true believers.Each holding the world together with their collection of beliefs. Mr. Rawat, from outside the cult mindset, is a low-level manipulating mystic, but inside the cult, he's the whole deal.And the BS he offers is almost impossible to shake. SURRENDER THE REINS OF YOUR LIFE AND I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE. That was and is his core message. To him, the meditation is the way that he validates his claim to premies souls.And frankly, each of us is a free being. This planet is passing out of the time that people relinquish control of themselves to others. However, it takes enormous courage to accept yourself and proceed. Premies, a hint on escape. Give YOURSELF the same power you give Mr. Rawat. It is the jet fuel of your future life! NO BS !! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 23:01:44 (EST)
Poster: John K. Email: To: Mark Subject: The truth shall set you free. (Re: My response to Jim's response ) Message: Hey Mark, that's cool! I had totally forgotten that phrase: 'surrender the reins of your life to me...' What the hell was I thinking of to even WANT to do that? Of course, I know what I was thinking, I was looking for a quick fix of ecstacy, and I did get it actually, but eventually it made me very sick. My impression now of the guru is that he thrives off the dependency of the premies. He just wants more and more. It was my experience that there was never ever gonna be any end to chasing the guru, chasing 'Realization', 'chasing' devotion. And after I stopped the chase I realized it was all a fantasy, not real at all. It was so wondeful to cast off that ball and chain and walk free! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 06:53:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: Mark Subject: Re: My response to Jim's response Message: Mark: Regarding: SURRENDER THE REINS OF YOUR LIFE AND I WILL GIVE YOU PEACE. That was and is his core message. To him, the meditation is the way that he validates his claim to premies souls. And frankly, each of us is a free being. Most people take 'charisma' to be roughly equivalent to leadership, or fame but the core of charisma is magic, the ability to call up extraordinary conditions. Knowledge serves this purpose for Maharaji. It is outside the realm of ordinary or typical phenomenological experience and, for most who practice it, it actually produces tangible results, or a real experience that has beauty and grace. This experience appears to be directly attributable to him because of our general ignorance of the practice, but that's also the Achilles heel. A higher profile, or an Internet presence would almost certainly lead to closer scrutiny of the mystique by which he links himself to Knowledge. If that happens the story is over (although I think he would, and will, probably escape to Mauritania or someplace with a substantial Swiss account and a small band of diehards in that event.) And regarding: This planet is passing out of the time that people relinquish control of themselves to others. However, it takes enormous courage to accept yourself and proceed. There is actually some data to back this up, at least in terms of attitudes toward political authority. Ronald Inglehart started the 'World Values Survey' in 1981 and has conducted three rounds in '81, '91 and '95. The survey has quite a number of questions on religious and ethical attitudes and values. He's also written a number of books, though I think he has probably about exhausted the subject. If one could now identify a link to other kinds of authority (spiritual, etc.) and then link that back to the political it might be worth another book, or at least an article. Still, I suspect that the actually findings would be suggestive but not conclusive. If this is happening it is probably a very long term development, and we are still in the early stages. Incidentally, the country that is the most 'fastidious' in terms of attitudes about public littering and so forth is Turkey. China is at the other end of the spectrum. The US and Western European countries are in the middle. That sort of blows a few concepts. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 20:10:08 (EST)
Poster: Participant Email: To: Everyone Subject: Partisan Post per Participant Message: Well it's been quite an experience posting here on ex-premies org. Most of my life's experiences occur in the general community and I've found that on the whole a good humoured, good natured, unfailingly cheerful, successful person is greeted wherever he goes with interest and reciprocal good feelings and it doesn't hurt if he's happy to drop the plastic whenever and wherever. Most people treat unhappy, bitter whingers like they're lepers, something to avoid like the plague. So it's been a learning experience here on ex-premies org where if I'd been an immature, credulous kid and/or a 'Be Here Now' acid-freaked no-discrimination zone when I received Knowledge, broke relationships with my family and had spent many unhappy, frustrated years in the ashram followed by years of torment and professional psychiatric help to release me from my feelings of responsibility for my foolishness then you would have greeted me with open arms and tender care. Is it my fault that everything has turned out well for me? It seems you believe I am somehow a despicable person because I am a happy, contented 25 year premie. No I have no excuses for my appalling attitudes, I had 21 pretty good years before I received Knowledge followed by 25 extremely good years thereafter. I've been a bit inflammatory in my posts but even when I was being open and serious the response was the same. Now I am as guilty as Maharaji in one respect, neither of us has done what you thought we should. He has done what he did, not what you thought/think he should and despite the paranoid ravings of BB I am sure he doesn't care a damn for your jeremiads, I know I really don't care much about your insistent demands that he should answer the questions you care so much about or apologise for the problems you caused yourself. There seems that most of the posts that aren't tirades are cheap point scoring and very little real information has been collated and published. So as I'm not that interested in these sorts of activities I won't become an active contributor, most of the insistent questions of say Jim H. I have no interest in and I note that those strong points I think I make are ignored rather than rebutted. The site isn't causing me doubts or revealing reprehensible acts of Maharaji that shock-horrify me but the site is rather boring even to a long time premie. My interest was piqued when Alta Vista revealed your existence to me but you've been something of a disappointment. As its already been over a week since some of you posted to me, you may no longer remember what you said but anyway, here goes. To Jim: Maybe 'Participant' is more exciting in Canada than in Australia but I use a pseudonym for the same reasons that most people on the Internet do, nothing specific to Elan Vital and no, I've never heard anything about non-use of the Internet. On the other hand, I agree that the Internet is no place for propagation of Knowledge. Even at this level of communication I've noticed how easy it is to give and take offence, misunderstand and misconstrue. If eg we were face to face then our primate personalities and non-verbal cues would ameliorate most of these problems. I have lots of friends who are ex-premies, a few of them enjoy discussing the big picture of life but our arguments don't preclude friendship. 1) What causes that 'positive flow'? 2) Does Maharaji have anything to do with it? 3) Is Maharaji (the person) able to 'give' grace? 4) Can anyone else 'give' grace? 5) Does Maharaji mean as much (or as little) as you do by the term? 6) Is that how Maharaji has always used the term? Discussions on this and related topics 'grace/effort, predestination/free-will, etc' have gone on for millennia. I'm humble enough not to think I can add anything new to them and I don't try. While my life is full of 'grace', and it still is, I leave the dissection of the topics for people like you. 7 - 11 I don't know what Maharaji 'means'. When I listen to Maharaji I experience a cessation of thought and an intensification of joy. To me this is the meaning of his message. I have no idea if I've been wrong in understanding him as I don't try to 'understand' him in the sense you are talking of. I didn't receive Knowledge because of my understanding of what premies were saying except that they were saying practising of knowledge altered your experience of life so that questions of intellectual understanding didn't matter any more. This was consonant with my intellectual beliefs created by reading the Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the writings of Shankara, Vivekanada and Ramakrishna, Tagore and Aurobindo and it's come true for me. If we were having dinner I'd be happy to chat about this but it's far too complex and huge a topic for typing and dispute with someone I don't know. To Mickey: Well it's obvious then that though we live on different continents and have different cultures Mili and I both understand the definition of a Pharisee. Only you have the inside knowledge to know whether you fit the bill. However, much that has been posted on this site certainly fits. >'May we all become as wise and wonderful as you!' This level of snideness ill becomes a professional religious. I can't remember the foolish things I accepted as true because I didn't think they were foolish then. I can only remember the ones that to me were obviously foolish and where my attitudes and beliefs engendered controversy with other premies. It may well be that I am a smart less-fooled premie than many others, I am also a smarter less-fooled member of the general community, should I pretend to be stupid so you guys won't think I'm arrogant or boasting? I'll go on telling it like I see it, it seems to be working. To JW: In the game of life I play a modified Tit-for-Tat and I'm prepared to try once more with you. It seems that you picked up an extra legacy from your time following Guru Maharaji. A poor-taste scatological humour which thankfully in his case is no longer often displayed which I will ignore. I didn't say Mishler closed the ashrams in the US though I must admit I assumed the ashrams were closed in the 'space-out of 76' in the US as well. But my accounting of the premies has been improved by your data. If we include the British premies then the number of people who have received Knowledge is even larger and now that I've seen more of this site I see that there are more than 10 regular ex-premie contributors, there may be as many as 20. My point is if Knowledge and Maharaji are as bad as you few claim then why aren't the overwhelming majority of ex-premies loudly complaining around the world as you few are. I have far more than 20 ex-premies who are good friends of mine and whom I see regularly. Most of them left Knowledge for reasons such as, got married, didn't have enough time or energy with work, family and all, no Satsang in our area, just kind of drifted away, didn't like some premies, too lazy, found meditation boring, find Maharaji boring, rather drink or smoke dope and watch TV, don't know, etc. Most of them fondly reminisce about the 'good old days' of youthful excitement in DLM not only even but especially in the ashram. If the experience was one of brain washing and control why do the large majority of people leave Knowledge after a few months or years of involvement and remember it with fond or at worst neutral memories? Why not resolve your grievances with Maharaji the American way - no not with high powered automatic weapons in the school yard but by suing him for deprivation of liberty, loss of income and infringement of your Civil Rights. You're a lawyer, aren't you, so you wouldn't have to pay any legal fees. Imagine the payout if you could get a jury of your peers to agree with you, why not throw in post-traumatic stress disorder, repressed memories and satanic rituals? Instead of impressing this small group of true-believers you will have a public, well-publicised forum for you to really show the world what sort of person Maharaji is. Of course, you will then have to go beyond innuendo and hearsay and provide real evidence. Shouldn't even take any more time than keeping up with this forum. > 'Yes, I guess those of us who took what he said literally, like his commandment not to doubt (which, given your statements, you seem to have violated on a regular basis, at least in your 20/20 hindsight.),we're really fools.' > 'Your statment that premies were in a position to make rational choices of what they wanted to do is profoundly silly.' I find these sort of statements really difficult to deal with (and I note that you too can make the odd typo but I certainly wouldn't hold that agianst you). For me the approach that you should practise Knowledge by thinking about what you should think and then try not to think 'doubts' and obey 'commandments' is profoundly silly. This is akin to Jim H.'s approach of considering any contradictions that can be found in Maharaji's statements 'prove' that he is every bad thing Jim may wish it to prove. Knowledge has always (in my experience over twenty five years in the West) been presented as an experiential, transformational way of life wherein the totality of affect is the inner proof of it's truth, not a conceptual, academic text. As for the Millennnium, it's here isn't it and has been for around twenty five years. I'd be happy to tell Maharaji anything that came into my mouth anytime I meet him. That meeting has never occurred but there's still another twenty five years at least for it to occur. Actually I love the USA and have never met an American in an America National Park, luxury hotel or ski resort I didn't like. Sorry no time to type on. No doubt I will infuriate some of you some more but so what. When I say VP's parents are wise and sensible so he should discuss his posting on this site with them, he takes offense at my 'insulting' them. Maybe I should say they're creeps but now you guys have convinced me to leave Maharaji and he'll think I'm wise and no longer arrogant. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 20:49:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: Participant Subject: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Participant, 1) What causes that 'positive flow'? 2) Does Maharaji have anything to do with it? 3) Is Maharaji (the person) able to 'give' grace? 4) Can anyone else 'give' grace? 5) Does Maharaji mean as much (or as little) as you do by the term? 6) Is that how Maharaji has always used the term? Discussions on this and related topics 'grace/effort, predestination/free-will, etc' have gone on for millennia. I'm humble enough not to think I can add anything new to them and I don't try. While my life is full of 'grace', and it still is, I leave the dissection of the topics for people like you. Anyone who usues word with niether knowing what they mean or caring to find out has some sort of problem. Are you frightened of something? No, that question's too insulting, let me rephrase: are you avoiding something? Or do you think that that's the best you can do? You'll go on saying things you don't understand, watching videos you don't understand, enjoying a meditation you don't understand and worshipping a human being(?) you don't understand. Yet -- and this is the real comfort of cult membership, I'm sure -- with all this avoidance you feel smugly confident and self-assured. You say you'd be happy to discuss this wonderfully complex topic over dinner but really, what would you say that you haven't already said here? You're not interested in trying to understand. That's your bottom line. Best of luck. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 20:59:40 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: Participant, I don't remember calling you arrogant(?) I just thought you were being sarcastic with me. I think I was offended because I believe you insulted me. I'm 34 years old which is why I was offended by your comment that I should talk to my parents about my activities. (BTW I have mentioned this forum to my parents, not to get their permission, mind you. They think it's a good thing. You are right, they are wise.) If your comments to me were meant to be sincere, or if this is a cultural discrepency and you didn't know you were offending me, then you have my deepest apology. At the time I read your comments, they did seem sarcastic. (A premie telling me that my parents were wise for calling his activities a 'cult'??-I ask you, does this make sense??) Well, Participant, I get the impression that you are done here, so the best in life to you, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:17:40 (EST)
Poster: Memphis Belle Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Participant, 1) What causes that 'positive flow'? 2) Does Maharaji have anything to do with it? 3) Is Maharaji (the person) able to 'give' grace? 4) Can anyone else 'give' grace? 5) Does Maharaji mean as much (or as little) as you do by the term? 6) Is that how Maharaji has always used the term? Discussions on this and related topics 'grace/effort, predestination/free-will, etc' have gone on for millennia. I'm humble enough not to think I can add anything new to them and I don't try. While my life is full of 'grace', and it still is, I leave the dissection of the topics for people like you. Anyone who usues word with niether knowing what they mean or caring to find out has some sort of problem. Are you frightened of something? No, that question's too insulting, let me rephrase: are you avoiding something? Or do you think that that's the best you can do? You'll go on saying things you don't understand, watching videos you don't understand, enjoying a meditation you don't understand and worshipping a human being(?) you don't understand. Yet -- and this is the real comfort of cult membership, I'm sure -- with all this avoidance you feel smugly confident and self-assured. You say you'd be happy to discuss this wonderfully complex topic over dinner but really, what would you say that you haven't already said here? You're not interested in trying to understand. That's your bottom line. Best of luck. I 2 weeks new to this site and the reason why I am here is because I have lots of doubts about M. I am very young, I do not use drugs, I have a secure job, and I am very happy. The reason why I chose to persue M (found out about him through a co-worker) is because I want to feel GOD. But I here on this site now because I am confused. I don't like that people seem to Worship M like he is god. I know that he is not God. I recieved K, hoping to go within and sense something. I have, a little, now and then. But I do not like all the comotion about M. I is distracting me from going 'inside'. I mean the programs seem like a big show. lots of music, lots of lights, lots of premies doing service lots of yelling from M, There is not enough about GOD. There is plenty about Maharaji. Why doesn't he talk about God, because isn't God what we are all trying to feel? Or is everyone just trying to feel 'good'? It has been almost 2 yrs. now, and I feel that it's not right to worship Maharji. But I do still want to practice. But, somehow, I feel I would be an outcast premie, because I am not like everyone else worshiping M. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:21:24 (EST)
Poster: Memphis Belle Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Participant, 1) What causes that 'positive flow'? 2) Does Maharaji have anything to do with it? 3) Is Maharaji (the person) able to 'give' grace? 4) Can anyone else 'give' grace? 5) Does Maharaji mean as much (or as little) as you do by the term? 6) Is that how Maharaji has always used the term? Discussions on this and related topics 'grace/effort, predestination/free-will, etc' have gone on for millennia. I'm humble enough not to think I can add anything new to them and I don't try. While my life is full of 'grace', and it still is, I leave the dissection of the topics for people like you. Anyone who usues word with niether knowing what they mean or caring to find out has some sort of problem. Are you frightened of something? No, that question's too insulting, let me rephrase: are you avoiding something? Or do you think that that's the best you can do? You'll go on saying things you don't understand, watching videos you don't understand, enjoying a meditation you don't understand and worshipping a human being(?) you don't understand. Yet -- and this is the real comfort of cult membership, I'm sure -- with all this avoidance you feel smugly confident and self-assured. You say you'd be happy to discuss this wonderfully complex topic over dinner but really, what would you say that you haven't already said here? You're not interested in trying to understand. That's your bottom line. Best of luck. I 2 weeks new to this site and the reason why I am here is because I have lots of doubts about M. I am very young, I do not use drugs, I have a secure job, and I am very happy. The reason why I chose to persue M (found out about him through a co-worker) is because I want to feel GOD. But I here on this site now because I am confused. I don't like that people seem to Worship M like he is god. I know that he is not God. I recieved K, hoping to go within and sense something. I have, a little, now and then. But I do not like all the comotion about M. I is distracting me from going 'inside'. I mean the programs seem like a big show. lots of music, lots of lights, lots of premies doing service lots of yelling from M, There is not enough about GOD. There is plenty about Maharaji. Why doesn't he talk about God, because isn't God what we are all trying to feel? Or is everyone just trying to feel 'good'? It has been almost 2 yrs. now, and I feel that it's not right to worship Maharji. But I do still want to practice. But, somehow, I feel I would be an outcast premie, because I am not like everyone else worshiping M. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:29:46 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: Participant wrote: 'Maybe 'Participant' is more exciting in Canada than in Australia' Well Participant, perhaps you would be more exciting in Canada but judging by Jim Heller's responses, I don't think so. Have you tried Belgium? Maybe you'd be more exciting there. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:40:47 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: P My read on the principles players of this forum is that they are first of all hooked on posting here. It either gives them SOME meaning in their lives, where there was probably little, or it just breaks the tedium of their lives. And their real aim is to wage a public a smear campaign against Maharaji. To do this they lie in the bush waiting for another unwitting premie to stumble into the forum so they can malign them, and in so doing somehow try to make M look bad. There's zero openess to any thoughtful discussion because the linch-pin premise of their campaign is that they've got everything figured out. Any admission otherwise would make their cause null and void. They often do on- and off -line group huddles just to reconfirm what their party line should be. What's really funny is when innocents like VP comes along who doesn't have Knowledge, but thinks he does 'cause he got the techniques from the website. So I guess it's good that with the advent of the Internet they have a way to connect with their like-minded amigos. But I can't help thinking it's a shadow cult. Even to the point that, like my experience years ago with many of my ashram cohabitants, they probably wouldn't give each other the time of day if they'd met through any other medium. And like the good old ashram days, they're hooked on the comraderie of the campaign that gives them a team-high, and adds to their addiction to posting. Isn't group dynamics facinating? Ah well, to each their own. Have fun! Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:44:13 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: Memphis Belle Subject: Outcast premie - join the club (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Hey Menphis Belle, I can relate to that! You know I never stuck a label on myself saying I was an ex-premie. I just didn't fit in to the religion that Maharaji set up and neither did I agree to his Hindu based philosophy. You're right on and sincere too. I received the Knowledge because I wanted to be closer to God. That's all it ever need be; just between you and God. He knows your heart. And it's definitely in the right place. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:49:36 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Memphis Belle Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Belle Don't worship M! Take what he's given you that is genuine and of value, and let the rest go. Maharji has many followers who express their feelings for him in many ways. He doesn't hold back and lets each one have their time with him. Don't let what appears to be worship on their part distract you from what's real for you. He gave you Knowledge so you could know that for yourself, and not have to look to anyone else's example to follow. As he said, 'Give Knowledge a chance'. Forget the rest. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 21:52:00 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: NV Subject: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Wrong NV. It's a public service, posting here. Many people are very grateful to this forum. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:00:06 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: David Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Wrong NV. It's a public service, posting here. Many people are very grateful to this forum. Wrong David. It's not a public service to foster fear and misinformation? As for the gratitude, the jury's still not out. Many were grateful that Hitler came to power. Doesn't mean it was a wise assessment. Next thing you know you'll be claiming you're on a mission from God. That's when it really gets scary. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:22:13 (EST)
Poster: David Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk To: NV Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Who's fostering fear here NV? That just isn't true. And don't you think YOU'RE on a mission from God? Of course you are. Aren't we all. Regarding people being grateful to this forum; you only have to read some of the posts exclaiming that emotion to see that it's true. May the truth always shine through. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:35:01 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: Memphis Belle Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Hey, Memphis Belle! Sorry we all got so silly on your post yesterday. I can see here that you are really looking for serious answers. Sometimes it is hard to be an individual. For me, it is always best to do what I feel is right FOR ME. I have always been a bit of an outsider in some respects, but that is okay, too. I also think that M is the God of EV (K also). There is too much emphasis on him IMHO. That is why I can't be a part of it. It doesn't make sense for me to devote to another human being. I have meditated, but have come to believe that what I found there wasn't God anymore than a tree or a river or music is. God is all aroung me, not just inside of me. There is nothing wrong with going inside, but to involve all of the other nonsense is, for me, nonsense. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 23:04:47 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: NV Subject: To NV and all premies with sincerity (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: P My read on the principles players of this forum is that they are first of all hooked on posting here. It either gives them SOME meaning in their lives, where there was probably little, or it just breaks the tedium of their lives. And their real aim is to wage a public a smear campaign against Maharaji. To do this they lie in the bush waiting for another unwitting premie to stumble into the forum so they can malign them, and in so doing somehow try to make M look bad. There's zero openess to any thoughtful discussion because the linch-pin premise of their campaign is that they've got everything figured out. Any admission otherwise would make their cause null and void. They often do on- and off -line group huddles just to reconfirm what their party line should be. What's really funny is when innocents like VP comes along who doesn't have Knowledge, but thinks he does 'cause he got the techniques from the website. So I guess it's good that with the advent of the Internet they have a way to connect with their like-minded amigos. But I can't help thinking it's a shadow cult. Even to the point that, like my experience years ago with many of my ashram cohabitants, they probably wouldn't give each other the time of day if they'd met through any other medium. And like the good old ashram days, they're hooked on the comraderie of the campaign that gives them a team-high, and adds to their addiction to posting. Isn't group dynamics facinating? Ah well, to each their own. Have fun! NV, I don't recall maligining any premies here, but I guess I'm not a principle poster, just an innocent. I am trying to keep an open mind to premies. I think we should judge M based on his own actions. I do get upset and or bored with all of the name calling that goes on between exs and premies on here myself. A word of advice from an outsider to knowledge (In your opinion, and in mine in a way, too): When the premies flame and name call and act totally full of anger and hate it makes me question the sincerity of the peace that M is supposedly giving you. You are, in a way, a representation of his movement, whether you like this or not. I try not to judge you as such, but I'm sure many readers here do! I don't think ugly exchanges do the exs any great service either, IMHO, but I will say that they aren't claiming to have an inner peace that defies understanding or explanation either. In fact, most of them are claiming to have anger and hurt, so the premies engaging in this warfare end up looking very hypocritical. I'm not being sarcastic and I mean no disrespect to anyone here. This is just an observation. When the premies don't give the exs straight answers, and then proceed to attack the exs without even answering their questions, it doesn't give a good impression of premies to those of us on the outside. I think that you are right, attacking the premies doesn't do that much to make M look bad or to discredit him. Stating facts about M, or showing that premies are unable to answer questions fairly and without cruelty is more valid to me. By the same token, saying terrible things about the principal posters here doesn't do a lot to make M look good or to discredit the exs. It just makes you look mean-or desperate. Sorry, but it's true. In Peace, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 23:41:03 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: NV Subject: Whoops! (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: In the last paragraph, a sentence should have said, 'Stating facts about M, or showing fairly and without cruelty that premies are unable to answer questions, is more valid to me.' The first way I typed that sentence, the meaning is incorrect. VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 23:51:28 (EST)
Poster: Participant Email: To: JW Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: As I was coming out of the surf at lunch time the phrase 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind' appeared in my mind. Seems my unconsciousness had been mulling over your ideas about doubts. I think this is the wording of the 'commandment' you keep talking about. Quite a difficult commandment to follow. No-one has yet been able to encapsulate just what the 'mind' really is yet (I lean to a Dennett, Edelman, Dawkins, Diamond, Pinker evolutionary model), let alone determine what 'room' is in it. Did you ever have an ashram roommate who strove to understand and obey this commandment and eventually put his head in a vise and kept squeezing until there was no room for doubt in his mind? I suspect you tried to fill your mind with 'good premie thoughts' so you couldn't hear the doubting ones. If we had it in our power to actually live out this 'commandment' we wouldn't have required Knowledge so to me it was obvious that it wasn't my sisyphean task to control my mind, all I had to do was satsang, service and meditation and see what happened. From ground control to bliss patrol. I didn't know if Maharaji was 'bringing the Millennium', I strongly doubted that this was 'Millennium' as described in The Book of Revelation and I very strongly doubted that the Astrodome was going to leave Earth. I didn't doubt my judgements about the situations of early premie life, if I couldn't trust my judgement how could I trust my judgement not to trust my judgement and to follow the ideas of others? I didn't/don't doubt that Maharaji was overweight, ugly and had a grating voice but I didn't/don't doubt that his influence in my life has been wonderful. I don't need hindsight to justify my understanding, I made many errors of judgement, eg I thought ashram life was a barrel of fun and I assumed that all the ashram premies felt the same. I thought most people who practised Knowledge for even a short time would enjoy it so much they'd stick with it. I thought DLM would evolve into an organisation that would be completely open and devoid of interpersonal politics. I thought all premies would take responsibility for their own actions. I thought responding to some of the posts I read on the ex-premies org would be fun and would lead to a meaningful dialogue. > 'if you are having such a great time as a premie, why in the hell do you care what some ex-premies think?' I don't care and I'm not disturbed but to prove that I'd have to fade off into Netoblivion, but then isn't that what most premies who find this site do after a little while? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 00:40:53 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: The funny thing is that without premies posting on this site, the ex-premies would be relatively ineffective at making knowledge look like a sham. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 01:47:41 (EST)
Poster: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: Participant wrote 'To Mickey: Well it's obvious then that though we live on different continents and have different cultures Mili and I both understand the definition of a Pharisee. Only you have the inside knowledge to know whether you fit the bill. However, much that has been posted on this site certainly fits.> 'May we all become as wise and wonderful as you!' This level of snideness ill becomes a professional religious. I can't remember the foolish things I accepted as true because I didn't think they were foolish then. I can only remember the ones that to me were obviously foolish and where my attitudes and beliefs engendered controversy with other premies. It may well be that I am a smart less-fooled premie than many others, I am also a smarter less-fooled member of the general community, should I pretend to be stupid so you guys won't think I'm arrogant or boasting? I'll go on telling it like I see it, it seems to be working.' I admit that my response was defensive and snide, and I apologise, but I will not apologise for the fact that I actually have studied theology and don't just accept what I read in AIID. It is my experience that many Premies quote the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, but their knowledge is superficial. I will not apologise for actually taking the time to study Hebrew and Greek so that I can read in the original languages. I do not accept the Premie premise that 'Jesus taught this Knowledge' because it is fallacious. Call me any name you want, it won't change the facts. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 06:25:25 (EST)
Poster: bill Email: *.* To: Participant Subject: panties (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Oh, I think rawat is quite interested in what goes on here. His dream of global lordship he has worked on for his life is definately threatened and from this group here much can happen outside of the forum. His view of life is that there is no god but the master. There is this 'energy' and it has no conciousness or personality of it's own. There are many christian men who will look at this effort of his with thier clear eyes and will help stop him. He has managed to keep himself out of public scrutiny because of his mothers public announcement about him and the jim jones suicide cult got the media to feel they didn't want to publicize any wierd groups with the openness that first greeted rawat and others in the early 70's. It is time to share the truth that rawat the lord is here. MORE people should remember him at the moment of death so they can be saved. I for one am engaged in precisely that kind of effort. It takes a little effort to get them to see that this is happening and the future implications, but rex reed and others will certainly catch on. Let free men have a look at the lord. Why should rawat go through life setting up this whole facade of him being lord so that future people will think it is true. Why let him do it unopposed? Anyone who hasn't written a journey entry on the website please do. And if you wrote one and want to make it better brian will allow you to overwrite your old one. Make it as helpful to the new and old cult victims as you can. Sometimes people come here and read the journeys and don't really make it to the forum to read your viewpoint because it gets buried in the volume of posts here Feel free to use anything any of us has said in your entry. I am very grateful to Jim and JW and anon and scott and david and whoever was on the early forum that provided me a way to find my way out. This is helping people. The only god for a premie thinks this is not helping people, but the real god and the real conciousness that provided this life want's us to be free to enjoy this life and sure we can feel our breath, I do all the time, or quite a large part of the day, but to be trapped in a fraud lords clutches is frankly hell. Although when you are trapped it seems ok. Participanties, I am not paranoid to think rawat is student. And even others that post here. rawat is student. I didnt bother to post all the little sentences that are straight from his previous videos. Just one is the post he wrote to cd where the way he talked about disaster was exactly how he has refered to his mothers death on a few occasions. YOU did not address my view of your postings. Unless I missed it down below. I AM a little behind on my reading. It will be wednesday before I fully catch up on all the postings. I read them all eventually. I prefer to keep up daily but work and 'other projects' is keeping me busy. bill Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 10:13:34 (EST)
Poster: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Memphis Belle Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Dear Memphis Belle, Have you read any of the posts conserning practicing K without M. There are those of us here who find great value in the meditation but can't go along with the M part of the equation. If the meditation works for you continue doing it. You don't need M for that as your own experience must prove to you. Robyn Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:02:47 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: You know, NV, I have to thank you. If I had ever had doubts about the decision to leave MJ your posts would convince me otherwise. Take, for instance Concerning: To do this they lie in the bush waiting for another unwitting premie to stumble into the forum so they can malign them, and in so doing somehow try to make M look bad. There's zero openess to any thoughtful discussion because the linch-pin premise of their campaign is that they've got everything figured out. Doesn't this sort of nonsense pose the slightest problem for you? one thing I'm concerned about is the class of premie we seem to attract. Why do we get the stupid ones? It's a puzzler. Suppose we put a block on you guys, huh? No more premies posting here. Anyone care for a vote? We could have a secret handshake. And what about this gem: Wrong David. It's not a public service to foster fear and misinformation? As for the gratitude, the jury's still not out. Many were grateful that Hitler came to power. Doesn't mean it was a wise assessment. Next thing you know you'll be claiming you're on a mission from God. That's when it really gets scary. Is there any logic at all to this hyperbole? Are you a machine or something? Let's apply the Turing test. Who thinks NV is a premie-programmed machine stringing together premie-speak indiscriminately. NV this is the last time I pay attention to you. Try rubbing two brain cells together.... maybe you'll get a spark. -Scott Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:08:03 (EST)
Poster: Selena Email: To: Memphis Belle Subject: Re: Is that all? I'm still looking for some content (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: It seems to me that what premies are into is seeing Maharaji. It is all about watching videos and going to events and if you are really rich or important to him (or they would say 'graced') you get to see him more privately. If it were just about spiritual experience why all the focus on him? The love songs? The endless videos. The tears of joy when he comes onto the stage? When the talk is about loving 'him' they do this double blind thing of alluding to the idea that the 'him' is the experience, but they are kidding themselves and everyone else. It's personality cult worship. At my last event/program/festival in December it was so obvious. I'll never forget the nausea I felt when the woman next to me said she wanted to stay in the hall afterwards and just stare at the chair. yeah, ok. eeeish. I know it may have been a wonderful experience for her, but it's not for me. I do believe there is some kind of energy that we all feel and have in common with all of life. I also believe there are many ways to experience it. I am trying (not too successfully I admit) to accept that M may be one of them for many people. However their actions have not shown me that they are any more blissed out than anyone else. In fact they seem more uptight in general. More rigid and judgemental. Less able to enjoy the other parts of life that don't have something to do with their WOK. (I love that acronym, I always think of a slow stir fry of the brain). If you are like I was, you will most likely go in and out of devotion to M and doubt. I did that for 20 years. The events are a powerful lure for people like me. I am attracted to the quick fix appeal of it all. But I have finally realized it is more negative than good for me. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:38:44 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: VP Subject: Re: To NV and all premies with sincerity (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: I'm not into name calling either VP. But I am into calling a spade a spade. The tactics I described in previous postes are used by a few here. To that, they are not being honest, and they obscure meaningful discussion. I mean no malice in pointing it out... just trying to level the playing field. And YOU know VP as well as I, the playing field here is slanted in their favor. Case in the point you raise, everyone expects premies to demonstrate a pacifistic demeanour when confronting, what to me, is gross misinformation, but there's no similar expectation for the other side. They of course are smart enough to know this and exploit it by attcking premies with abusive and condecending behavior. Premies, being normal and human react with the same, and not only are they ridiculed initially by the attack, but are condemned for attacking back. NOT a level playing field VP. Ah well, such are the slings and arrows. By the way, what do you think of my assertion that everybody's hooked on posting here? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:47:37 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Scott, I had you all wrong. I thought you were above resorting to name-calling as a first-line response to confronting posts. Appears like you're no different than 'Jam-Tart Jim'. Ciao then Scott, I won't miss your 'thoughtful' reguritation of deep philosphical thought. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 12:52:08 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Rick Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: The funny thing is that without premies posting on this site, the ex-premies would be relatively ineffective at making knowledge look like a sham. You think you're effective??? Rick, you're a tempest in a tea-pot. Don't believe all the praises you get from the choir. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:02:31 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: NV's classically erroneous complaint (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: I'm not into name calling either VP. But I am into calling a spade a spade. The tactics I described in previous postes are used by a few here. To that, they are not being honest, and they obscure meaningful discussion. I mean no malice in pointing it out... just trying to level the playing field. And YOU know VP as well as I, the playing field here is slanted in their favor. Case in the point you raise, everyone expects premies to demonstrate a pacifistic demeanour when confronting, what to me, is gross misinformation, but there's no similar expectation for the other side. They of course are smart enough to know this and exploit it by attcking premies with abusive and condecending behavior. Premies, being normal and human react with the same, and not only are they ridiculed initially by the attack, but are condemned for attacking back. NOT a level playing field VP. Ah well, such are the slings and arrows. By the way, what do you think of my assertion that everybody's hooked on posting here? If someone agrees to play a game with rules and then begins to break them, they have only questionable rights to complain about how the rules are enforced. Yes, there are lots of bona fide cases of police brutality but an even greater number of people who complain about how the police deal with them just don't like getting busted. Demeanour should only be the the second level of any assessment of fair discussion. The first level has to be content. After all, it's content-related problems that usually cause demeanour problems in the first place. NV, if you want a consistent pattern to consider why not this:NO PREMIE HAS EVER MAINTAINED A SIMPLE, LOGICAL DISCUSSION ABOUT MAHARAJI here. Not one. Their willingness to do so varies as do their excuses, but this, my friend, is the one constant. So what happens? They get cajoled, laughed at, barked at, ridiculed, taunted, solicited, begged, whatever. You're absolutely right that all of this happens and yes, a lot of it looks alike. There is a lot of premie bashing here, admittedly. But your picture's woefully incomplete if you don't consider why that happens. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:10:14 (EST)
Poster: Jim Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: The funny thing is that without premies posting on this site, the ex-premies would be relatively ineffective at making knowledge look like a sham. You think you're effective??? Rick, you're a tempest in a tea-pot. Don't believe all the praises you get from the choir. NV, Do you think MAHARAJI is bothered by us here? Yes or no? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:24:06 (EST)
Poster: Scott T. Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: Scott, I had you all wrong. I thought you were above resorting to name-calling as a first-line response to confronting posts. Appears like you're no different than 'Jam-Tart Jim'. Ciao then Scott, I won't miss your 'thoughtful' reguritation of deep philosphical thought. I take it back. Vacol is a better class of premie. Mind you, we've got to become resigned to the irresistible progress of is his epistles like the circus volkswagen that just keeps emmiting occupant after occupant in a never ending stream of consciousness. It's like Mt. Rushmore or something. We will soon be reading #7. Have you looked at those? Don't you see some sort of reflection? -Scott P.S. Why do you think you can afford to be so bloody outraged? You refer to us obliquely as Nazis, when at most we're whistle blowers? Where does that come from? Do you actually know anything about Hitler? Want to discuss Hitler and Stalin? No problem. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 13:55:29 (EST)
Poster: VP Email: To: NV Subject: Re: To NV and all premies with sincerity (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: I'm not into name calling either VP. But I am into calling a spade a spade. The tactics I described in previous postes are used by a few here. To that, they are not being honest, and they obscure meaningful discussion. I mean no malice in pointing it out... just trying to level the playing field. And YOU know VP as well as I, the playing field here is slanted in their favor. Case in the point you raise, everyone expects premies to demonstrate a pacifistic demeanour when confronting, what to me, is gross misinformation, but there's no similar expectation for the other side. They of course are smart enough to know this and exploit it by attcking premies with abusive and condecending behavior. Premies, being normal and human react with the same, and not only are they ridiculed initially by the attack, but are condemned for attacking back. NOT a level playing field VP. Ah well, such are the slings and arrows. By the way, what do you think of my assertion that everybody's hooked on posting here? NV, You are right that they playing field isn't level, but they do pay for the site. It's their site, and I feel like they should be able to question Maharaji if they want. This does NOT mean that I agree with some of the attacks on premies which have been unfair or cruel. I don't expect all premies to have a totally pacifistic demeanor and I DID NOT comdemn you for attacking back. (You know, one can always defend with out being on the offensive...) I was just giving you some advice about sinking to a level of insults and name-calling when premies are supposedly called to be missionaries of peace. (You don't even have to care what I say, I just thought you might be interested) If I wanted to get k and I came here and witnessed some of the behaviour by certain premies (certainly not all of them who post here are lumped into this category) I would think twice is all I'm saying to you. I'm certainly not condoning some of the attacks by the exs on premies either. There is a difference between discussion and a total breakdown of courtesy and I have seen this on both sides. No, I don't think that everyone is hooked on posting here (are you?) Katie and some of the other posters have said that it is addicting, and I think that it can be. I like to come here and read everyday, but then again, I read the newspaper, too, each day. Talk to you later, VP Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 14:54:42 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: As I was coming out of the surf at lunch time the phrase 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind' appeared in my mind. Seems my unconsciousness had been mulling over your ideas about doubts. I think this is the wording of the 'commandment' you keep talking about. Quite a difficult commandment to follow. No-one has yet been able to encapsulate just what the 'mind' really is yet (I lean to a Dennett, Edelman, Dawkins, Diamond, Pinker evolutionary model), let alone determine what 'room' is in it. Did you ever have an ashram roommate who strove to understand and obey this commandment and eventually put his head in a vise and kept squeezing until there was no room for doubt in his mind? I suspect you tried to fill your mind with 'good premie thoughts' so you couldn't hear the doubting ones. If we had it in our power to actually live out this 'commandment' we wouldn't have required Knowledge so to me it was obvious that it wasn't my sisyphean task to control my mind, all I had to do was satsang, service and meditation and see what happened. From ground control to bliss patrol. I didn't know if Maharaji was 'bringing the Millennium', I strongly doubted that this was 'Millennium' as described in The Book of Revelation and I very strongly doubted that the Astrodome was going to leave Earth. I didn't doubt my judgements about the situations of early premie life, if I couldn't trust my judgement how could I trust my judgement not to trust my judgement and to follow the ideas of others? I didn't/don't doubt that Maharaji was overweight, ugly and had a grating voice but I didn't/don't doubt that his influence in my life has been wonderful. I don't need hindsight to justify my understanding, I made many errors of judgement, eg I thought ashram life was a barrel of fun and I assumed that all the ashram premies felt the same. I thought most people who practised Knowledge for even a short time would enjoy it so much they'd stick with it. I thought DLM would evolve into an organisation that would be completely open and devoid of interpersonal politics. I thought all premies would take responsibility for their own actions. I thought responding to some of the posts I read on the ex-premies org would be fun and would lead to a meaningful dialogue. > 'if you are having such a great time as a premie, why in the hell do you care what some ex-premies think?' I don't care and I'm not disturbed but to prove that I'd have to fade off into Netoblivion, but then isn't that what most premies who find this site do after a little while? Oh....my....god. What you said here sounds convoluted and confused, that I'm not quite sure where to begin. It is certainly revisionist and certainly full of rationalizations. M's commandment was 'never leave room for doubt in your mind' which was a 'commandment' until at least 1983. I don't know if it's still a commandment or not. [By the way, as noted above, Mahararaji also said to 'surrender the reigns of your life to me' implying that one should follow what he said, including something as explicit as a 'commandment.' Wouldn't you agree?] I followed this commandment, not by thinking 'good premie thoughts,' whatever that is, I tried to do it, by doing what Maharaji told me to do: satsang, service and meditation, so we are saying the same thing. But I think it's silly for you to say one was a fool to try to follow your lord and master's commandments. When you meditate, when you follow your breath, there isn't room for thinking, and hence no room for doubts. One of the damaging things in Maharaji's cult was that we were encouraged to use meditation to prevent ourselves from thinking, to prevent ourselves to even think about what was happening to us, to even think about whether we were happy or sad, fulfilled or unfulfilled. When practicing knowledge didn't work, I discounted any doubts I had about him. Hence, I had no objective view of my own experience or him. This is what a cult does to people. The other part of it is to rationalize any contradictions. But that's impossible, so most premies don't even try. You, on the other hand, appear to be full of rationalizations and 20/20 hindsight about what you and others experienced and what M said in the past. My point about Millennium, was that Maharaji said he was bringing 1000 years of peace, but that you siad you didn't believe him. Good for you. You apparently believe (now) that didn't believe a lot of crap he said. I suspect there is revisionism going on here, but if you didn't, more good for you. And I don't know on what basis you were thinking that premies would take responsibility for their own actions, when the entire emphasis of what Maharaji said was to reliquish our lives, lock, stock and barrel to him. To surrender, entirely, to him. Did you just miss that part? You seem to have conveniently forgotten it now that it doesn't make much sense to your current ideological theories. I think you might well be very interested in what ex-premies have to say here. I think you are interested in an alternative viewpoint, or else you wouldn't be here. If so, there is hope for you. BTW -- some 'premies' who visit this site become ex-premies, and some disappear, and some seem to just hang around forever. I assume it's because they like it here. Right Mili? Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:05:01 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Parisian partical - past participal (Re: Partisan Post per Participant) Message: No oblique reference intended. First example that came to mind. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 16:11:00 (EST)
Poster: NV Email: To: Jim Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: How would I know? I wouldn't be if I were him. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 17:18:59 (EST)
Poster: JW Email: To: Participant Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: I think I addressed your confusion about the 'don't doubt' commandment down below. I would just suggest that you now make a lot of excuses for Maharaji that are kind of ignorant given his history. Sorry you found my sacrasm on your insipid description of 'grace' to be in poor taste. I responded in kind because the idea that positive events in an airline flight are due to some kind of 'grace' is somewhat on the derranged side of things. My point was: where does grace start and end? Does it extend to good bowel movements? And you didn't answer my question either. Do people have good bowel movements by the grace of Maharaji, or are only premies' bowel movements by the grace of Maharaji and everyone else has theirs by the grace of fiber or prune juice? Inquiring minds want to know. I'm glad you are in contact with so many ex-premies. But I think even you can understand that some ex-premies want to talk about their experiences in the cult and some don't. And many aren't even aware there is such a thing as an ex-premie web site. And I also know anecdotally that there are both premies and ex-premies who visit this site regularly, but don't post here. And I wouldn't be so sure that ex-premies, knowing that you are still involved, would even tell you exactly the way they feel about it all. But, moreover, your obfuscations do not dispute the statistics that 90% of his followers have left Maharaji, regardless of whether they talk about it, or the reason the decided to leave. Again, I'm glad you found Maharaji's commandment not to doubt profoundly silly. In hindsight, I agree. Sounds like you picked and chose the stuff about Maharaji you wanted to believe and ignored the rest. The rest of us should have been so lucky. As to how Maharaji presented knowledge, again you are very revisionist. He said to practice satsang, service and meditation, devote your life to him, never leave room for doubt, and surrender to him the reigns of your life, among other things. He also warned repeatedly that listening to your mind would knock you off the path of realization. Did he intend us to just ignore what he said? Did he intend us to just figure he didn't know what he was talking about or lying? Must say, participant, I admire your ability to reconcile contradictions with massive rationalization to hold your trip together. It must take a very large supply of scotch tape. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 19:38:56 (EST)
Poster: Rick Email: To: NV Subject: Re: Partisan Post per Participant Message: The funny thing is that without premies posting on this site, the ex-premies would be relatively ineffective at making knowledge look like a sham. You think you're effective??? Rick, you're a tempest in a tea-pot. Don't believe all the praises you get from the choir. No, NV, I think the ex-premies as a whole are effective, not me particularly. But without your help we'd be nowhere. Thanks. Back To Index -:- Top of Index |