Ex-Premie.Org

Forum II Archive # 12

From: Mar 28, 1998

To: Apr 4, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5


Jim -:- Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:09:02 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:20:26 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:04:43 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Phuque Him! -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:06:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Phuque You, Too! -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 02:54:32 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 06:16:44 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 07:43:55 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 09:16:08 (EST)
___Jim -:- But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 09:41:22 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:26:17 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:38:29 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 11:44:26 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 11:45:41 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:08:38 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:30:52 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:51:44 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:55:57 (EST)
___Robyn -:- to Mili -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 13:06:17 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: to Mili -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 13:16:53 (EST)
___Jim -:- Mili jams out -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:05:49 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- My big faux pas -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:35:42 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- One too many sigmoids that time. Oopzzzz! -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:42:59 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: My big faux pas -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 15:29:09 (EST)
___Jim -:- Mili's idiocy knows no bounds -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 16:10:31 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: My big faux pas -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 16:55:20 (EST)
___qrptys -:- Move it up to the top, but change the title -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 18:21:36 (EST)
___Mili -:- Jim's dishonesty knows no bounds -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:55:48 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 08:50:41 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 09:04:52 (EST)
___Jim -:- Then why'd you lie about it earlier, Mili? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:58:02 (EST)
___Jim -:- Hey, Mili, you crusty old Croat, it's a joke -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 14:12:54 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Hey, Mili, you crusty old Croat, it's a joke -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:03:26 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Then why'd you lie about it earlier, Mili? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:37:18 (EST)
___Jim -:- You're a lummox, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:17:14 (EST)
___Mili -:- You're a Turd, Jim -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:47:04 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: You're a lummox, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 18:02:07 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:42:40 (EST)

Jim -:- Marolyn's letter? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:39:38 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Re: Marolyn's letter? Patient! -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 03:51:08 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Marolyn's letter? Good news! -:- Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:43:19 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Marolyn's letter? Good news! -:- Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:17:17 (EST)

Rick -:- To Jim -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 13:02:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: To Jim -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 14:18:03 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: To Jim -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:49:26 (EST)
___John K. -:- He's evolved beyond the Messiah -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 16:27:17 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: To Jim -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:01:20 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: To Jim -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:02:35 (EST)
___David -:- Re: He's evolved beyond the Messiah -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:07:47 (EST)
___Nigel -:- Re: He's evolved beyond the Messiah -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:41:23 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Evolved beyond Messiah. -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:56:02 (EST)

Brian -:- The Forum Move -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 09:06:39 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: The Forum Move -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 09:26:47 (EST)

Steve A -:- Realizing Knowledge -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:45:11 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:06:55 (EST)
___Steve A -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:15:36 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:28:29 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:47:41 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Scott -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 11:22:47 (EST)
___eb -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 12:31:17 (EST)
___Lg -:- Re: Realizing Knowledge -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:11:40 (EST)
___at UMASS -:- with EB -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:07:22 (EST)

net-surfer -:- A Message to Maharaji -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- This deserves a link! -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 03:32:47 (EST)
___Brian -:- Re: This deserves a link! -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 07:32:45 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 08:00:36 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 08:05:08 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:47:51 (EST)
___Net-surfer -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:17:24 (EST)
___Katie -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:31:40 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 16:11:49 (EST)
___Selena -:- Re: This deserves a link! -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:01:08 (EST)
___Memphis Belle -:- Re: A Message to Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:38:04 (EST)

Selena -:- the half monty -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:26:03 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: the half monty -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:51:56 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: the half monty -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 16:00:03 (EST)

John Kluge -:- What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:06:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:22:03 (EST)
___John Kluge -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:53:03 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:09:31 (EST)
___John K. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:13:42 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:20:18 (EST)
___John Kluge -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 19:53:57 (EST)
___John Kluge -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:02:10 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
___John Kluge -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:13:57 (EST)
___Reality Check -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:22:54 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:33:01 (EST)
___David Van Edam -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:42:52 (EST)
___John Kluge -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:59:14 (EST)
___Reality Check -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EST)
___Jim -:- Mr. Kluge doesn't get it -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:30:24 (EST)
___Jim -:- NV poses a question -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:38:25 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:39:17 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:36:16 (EST)
___David van Edam -:- So you're a FULL realised self? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:43:16 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:55:08 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Technical difficulties -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:31:08 (EST)
___VP -:- Chill out, reality check:) -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:57:16 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Levels, worlds, whatever -:- Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:59:39 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: Chill out, reality check:)P.S. -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:00:37 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:22:42 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:32:28 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 13:08:58 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: NV poses a question -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:27:59 (EST)
___RC -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:39:14 (EST)
___RC -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:42:02 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:53:50 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: NV poses a question -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:15:46 (EST)
___NV -:- For clarity -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:23:28 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:29:55 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: NV poses a question -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:49:25 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 22:17:13 (EST)
___Jim -:- Sorry, I posted a little early -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 22:19:10 (EST)
___FOR -:- NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:15 (EST)
___FOR -:- NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:24 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:31 (EST)
___Robyn -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:52:46 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:38:36 (EST)
___Jim -:- NV doesn't get it -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:16:48 (EST)
___Scott T. -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 17:57:05 (EST)
___RC -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 19:51:45 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:03:00 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:23:49 (EST)
___RC -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:45:46 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:19:23 (EST)
___Jim -:- May I? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:36:22 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:00:44 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:19:23 (EST)
___VP -:- Re: NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV -:- Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 23:21:31 (EST)
___JW -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 01:32:46 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Why are you calling this 'Truth'? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 02:48:24 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Why are you calling this 'Truth'? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 09:17:12 (EST)
___Mr Ex -:- Doesn't prove a thing! -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 10:28:46 (EST)
___RC -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:15:09 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: Why are you calling this 'Truth'? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:23:22 (EST)
___Jim -:- Not good enough, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:23:49 (EST)
___Jim -:- NV's melting -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:38:05 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: What DID you experience? -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:50:09 (EST)
___Mili -:- Re: Not good enough, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:27:53 (EST)
___Rick -:- Re: Not good enough, Mili -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:37:06 (EST)
___NV -:- Re: NV's melting -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:50:04 (EST)
___Jim -:- Re: NV's melting -:- Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 19:16:54 (EST)



Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:09:02 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Down below, Mili, you admitted that you might have gotten the story wrong when you earlier laughed off the suggestion that Maharaji had ever claimed to be 'the Messiah.' In the face of quotes where Maharaji said just that, you said: I guess I'll have to reconsider that 'Messiah' thing. So, now I'm asking you, Mili, what you've come up with. I'm particularly interested in how you factor in Maharaji's more recent denials, such as those described in the 'He's evolved beyond Messiah' thread by David ('I am NOT God') and Nigel ('I am exactly the same as you are'). Something's gotta give here, Mili. Your choices are pretty limited. You can either: 1) argue that he IS the Lord (i.e. Messiah, saviour of mankind, supreme Lord in human form, Hari, Vishnu, Brhama, Shiva, God in human form) in which case: a) you were wrong to say he never said he was b) he's playing some sort of weird game in which he currently lies to his followers or: 2) argue that he is NOT the Lord, in which case: a) he was wrong to say he was way back when b) he's apparently not too worried about misleading all those premies who think that's exactly what he is c) he does weird stuff inconsistent with his disavowal such as: i) getting people to line up to kiss his feet and give him money ii) call himself Hari in India in 1990 3) argue that you don't know which to argue, in which case you could: a) ask Maharaji to come out from hiding and deal with his own words and actions or: b) say you don't care to inquire because either: i) you don't care to know and/or: ii) you doubt he'd answer ii) You're afraid to bug him or: 4) you could, as you've done so often, throw over the chessboard Well?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:20:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Down below, Mili, you admitted that you might have gotten the story wrong when you earlier laughed off the suggestion that Maharaji had ever claimed to be 'the Messiah.' In the face of quotes where Maharaji said just that, you said: I guess I'll have to reconsider that 'Messiah' thing. So, now I'm asking you, Mili, what you've come up with. I'm particularly interested in how you factor in Maharaji's more recent denials, such as those described in the 'He's evolved beyond Messiah' thread by David ('I am NOT God') and Nigel ('I am exactly the same as you are'). Something's gotta give here, Mili. Your choices are pretty limited. You can either: 1) argue that he IS the Lord (i.e. Messiah, saviour of mankind, supreme Lord in human form, Hari, Vishnu, Brhama, Shiva, God in human form) in which case: a) you were wrong to say he never said he was b) he's playing some sort of weird game in which he currently lies to his followers or: 2) argue that he is NOT the Lord, in which case: a) he was wrong to say he was way back when b) he's apparently not too worried about misleading all those premies who think that's exactly what he is c) he does weird stuff inconsistent with his disavowal such as: i) getting people to line up to kiss his feet and give him money ii) call himself Hari in India in 1990 3) argue that you don't know which to argue, in which case you could: a) ask Maharaji to come out from hiding and deal with his own words and actions or: b) say you don't care to inquire because either: i) you don't care to know and/or: ii) you doubt he'd answer ii) You're afraid to bug him or: 4) you could, as you've done so often, throw over the chessboard Well? Jim, Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:04:43 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Down below, Mili, you admitted that you might have gotten the story wrong when you earlier laughed off the suggestion that Maharaji had ever claimed to be 'the Messiah.' In the face of quotes where Maharaji said just that, you said: I guess I'll have to reconsider that 'Messiah' thing. So, now I'm asking you, Mili, what you've come up with. I'm particularly interested in how you factor in Maharaji's more recent denials, such as those described in the 'He's evolved beyond Messiah' thread by David ('I am NOT God') and Nigel ('I am exactly the same as you are'). Something's gotta give here, Mili. Your choices are pretty limited. You can either: 1) argue that he IS the Lord (i.e. Messiah, saviour of mankind, supreme Lord in human form, Hari, Vishnu, Brhama, Shiva, God in human form) in which case: a) you were wrong to say he never said he was b) he's playing some sort of weird game in which he currently lies to his followers or: 2) argue that he is NOT the Lord, in which case: a) he was wrong to say he was way back when b) he's apparently not too worried about misleading all those premies who think that's exactly what he is c) he does weird stuff inconsistent with his disavowal such as: i) getting people to line up to kiss his feet and give him money ii) call himself Hari in India in 1990 3) argue that you don't know which to argue, in which case you could: a) ask Maharaji to come out from hiding and deal with his own words and actions or: b) say you don't care to inquire because either: i) you don't care to know and/or: ii) you doubt he'd answer ii) You're afraid to bug him or: 4) you could, as you've done so often, throw over the chessboard Well? Jim, Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Mili, You are truly an ignoramus. Your logic is the same as a parent saying they can do anything they want, including being dishonest. You claim to be against facism, but you try to shut down the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup while still participating on this forum, and support dishonesty as long as it's backed by authority. Rick
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:06:54 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Phuque Him! (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili: Regarding: Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Well then, not to put to fine a point on it, Phuque Him! Compare this, if you've the fortitude, to Jesus' response to Pilate and Ciaphus on the same subject. IF THIS I GOD WE ARE ALL IN BIG BIG TROUBLE. But, he's not. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 02:54:32 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Phuque You, Too! (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili: Regarding: Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Well then, not to put to fine a point on it, Phuque Him! Compare this, if you've the fortitude, to Jesus' response to Pilate and Ciaphus on the same subject. IF THIS I GOD WE ARE ALL IN BIG BIG TROUBLE. But, he's not. -Scott Scott, I didn't quite get the quote in bold letters, were you raging so much that you missed a letter or too? Maybe you meant IF THIS 'I' IS GOD WE ARE ALL IN BIG BIG TROUBLE. If so, I'd just like to comment that I beleive that we are ALL God. God is the only thing that, in fact, exists. Only we are not always aware of it.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 06:16:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Down below, Mili, you admitted that you might have gotten the story wrong when you earlier laughed off the suggestion that Maharaji had ever claimed to be 'the Messiah.' In the face of quotes where Maharaji said just that, you said: I guess I'll have to reconsider that 'Messiah' thing. So, now I'm asking you, Mili, what you've come up with. I'm particularly interested in how you factor in Maharaji's more recent denials, such as those described in the 'He's evolved beyond Messiah' thread by David ('I am NOT God') and Nigel ('I am exactly the same as you are'). Something's gotta give here, Mili. Your choices are pretty limited. You can either: 1) argue that he IS the Lord (i.e. Messiah, saviour of mankind, supreme Lord in human form, Hari, Vishnu, Brhama, Shiva, God in human form) in which case: a) you were wrong to say he never said he was b) he's playing some sort of weird game in which he currently lies to his followers or: 2) argue that he is NOT the Lord, in which case: a) he was wrong to say he was way back when b) he's apparently not too worried about misleading all those premies who think that's exactly what he is c) he does weird stuff inconsistent with his disavowal such as: i) getting people to line up to kiss his feet and give him money ii) call himself Hari in India in 1990 3) argue that you don't know which to argue, in which case you could: a) ask Maharaji to come out from hiding and deal with his own words and actions or: b) say you don't care to inquire because either: i) you don't care to know and/or: ii) you doubt he'd answer ii) You're afraid to bug him or: 4) you could, as you've done so often, throw over the chessboard Well? Jim, Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Mili, You are truly an ignoramus. Your logic is the same as a parent saying they can do anything they want, including being dishonest. You claim to be against facism, but you try to shut down the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup while still participating on this forum, and support dishonesty as long as it's backed by authority. Rick Rick, You must be pretty pissed off whenever you see me post here! Ha,Ha! Tough luck. Back to your 'mother' example. Wouldn't a mother try and attenuate her authority somewhat if she wanted her children to be as self-motivated and self-reliant as possible? The way I see it, Maharaji is not being dishonest. He is simply making his message and his work available to as many different people as possible, by shearing it of unnecessary concepts and cultural/historical idiosyncrasies.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 07:43:55 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
The way I see it, Maharaji is not being dishonest. He is simply making his message and his work available to as many different people as possible, by shearing it of unnecessary concepts and cultural/historical idiosyncrasies. Ahhh... This would explain him lining people up last year in Australia to kiss his feet. What a guy that maybe-God is! How truly liberating for his followers. How very un-cult-like. Thanks once again for clarifying stuff, Mili. One question: if you got your hands on a chocolate Maharaji bar, which would you want to munch on first? The head, or the Lotus feet? Just wondering is all...
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 09:16:08 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
The way I see it, Maharaji is not being dishonest. He is simply making his message and his work available to as many different people as possible, by shearing it of unnecessary concepts and cultural/historical idiosyncrasies. Ahhh... This would explain him lining people up last year in Australia to kiss his feet. What a guy that maybe-God is! How truly liberating for his followers. How very un-cult-like. Thanks once again for clarifying stuff, Mili. One question: if you got your hands on a chocolate Maharaji bar, which would you want to munch on first? The head, or the Lotus feet? Just wondering is all... Does this deserve a response, at all? Well, maybe, a short one. Brian, having a civilized discussion in this Forum is beyond you. You're even worse at it than me! You'd better get back to what you do best. Y'know - the Hatha Yoga thang.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 09:41:22 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Talking about the same man he usually goes to great lengths to say is not and has never claimed to be God, Mili said: Jim, Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Mili, I ask, how about turning it around? (That way, by the way, if you haven't noticed, it will fit what you yourself have been saying all along. [Just trying to be helpful, brother]). If he is NOT God, is he then entitled to say he is? Thinking cap, Mili. Time for your thinking cap.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:26:17 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Talking about the same man he usually goes to great lengths to say is not and has never claimed to be God, Mili said: Jim, Let's put it this way: if he is God, then he can do whatever he wants to do, including saying 'I am NOT God'. Mili, I ask, how about turning it around? (That way, by the way, if you haven't noticed, it will fit what you yourself have been saying all along. [Just trying to be helpful, brother]). If he is NOT God, is he then entitled to say he is? Thinking cap, Mili. Time for your thinking cap. OK, Jim, I put on my thinking cap - here's what I came up with: For at least 20 years, Maharaji nor anyone else haven't even alluded that he might be a Messiah, or God in human form, etc. or anything like that. According to David he's even given statements to the contrary! So, how come there were so many programs and festivals held in the meantime, so many people received Knowledge, and it still goes on? I'll tell you why - because what he is doing does not hinge on the 'He is God' concept at all. It is based on real experiences that people have in meditation. Of course, you can deny that, but you are just not being realistic in doing that. People do have remarkable, unforeseen experiences with the Knowledge, and nobody, even Maharaji, gives them a description beforehand to the effect of 'you have to expereince this, this and this'. It's not like that. The experiences to be had are left to personal exploration, and they are the cohesive factor in a simple, unencumbered, free flowing master-student relationship. Why this should bug you so much is beyond me, really.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:38:29 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, I am trying to figure out this meditation thing. I agree that it might be a wonderful way to relax from thinking. That,in turn, might flood one with good feelings, natural feelings like those tapped on a good vacation. Really, I'm thinking about whether or not I've tossed the baby with the bathwater. Fair enough? You, Mili, need to look a little more closely. First, Maharaji did indeed claim to be God as recently as 1990. Please be reasonable and accpet that Indian quote Senor X put up for what it is ('Hari, God in human form'). He said it cause he wanted to. No one was holding a gun to his head. Furthermore, you yourself know how many premies still think he is God. You've read many of them here yourself. (For soem reason, you also tried to discourage them from talking with others who thought the opposite back when you had your premie page with Harlan.) If M's NOT God, don't you think it's really terrible that people pray to him to guide and ultimately save them in life? Shouldn't he make it crystal clear, for once and for all, that, despite all the time she might have said and implied otherwise, he's not the great protector? If the meditation's so great as a stand-alone product, wouldn't all the self-criticism he can muster leave him something salvagable to peddle?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 11:44:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, I am trying to figure out this meditation thing. I agree that it might be a wonderful way to relax from thinking. That,in turn, might flood one with good feelings, natural feelings like those tapped on a good vacation. Really, I'm thinking about whether or not I've tossed the baby with the bathwater. Fair enough? You, Mili, need to look a little more closely. First, Maharaji did indeed claim to be God as recently as 1990. Please be reasonable and accpet that Indian quote Senor X put up for what it is ('Hari, God in human form'). He said it cause he wanted to. No one was holding a gun to his head. Furthermore, you yourself know how many premies still think he is God. You've read many of them here yourself. (For soem reason, you also tried to discourage them from talking with others who thought the opposite back when you had your premie page with Harlan.) If M's NOT God, don't you think it's really terrible that people pray to him to guide and ultimately save them in life? Shouldn't he make it crystal clear, for once and for all, that, despite all the time she might have said and implied otherwise, he's not the great protector? If the meditation's so great as a stand-alone product, wouldn't all the self-criticism he can muster leave him something salvagable to peddle? Jim, You state it yourself - that was an Indian quote given to Indian premies, printed in an Indian magazine. Why can't you accept it as that? It wasn't publicized in the West, at all. In fact, I didn't even know about that quote, or the magazine until you mentioned it here! I mean, I am not attempting to 'apologize' for Maharaji here, and I wouldn't want to interpret his words to you - but why is it unreasonable that he was simply stating the orthodox Satguru tradition there, and also how he felt for his Guru? Do you think his devotion for his Guru is fake? I think not, and that he was being very honest there. I think he genuinely feels that there is a value in giving a seriously respectful role to your spiritual master, or meditation teacher, or whatever you want to call it, and he is simply giving an example there, geared for the Indian audience that he was speaking to. All I can do now is repeat to you that I never felt coerced or compelled by Mahraji to regard him as God! He never said that. I do find practical advice in his talks concerning the practice of meditation. I find it of value. The Knowledge gives me very nice experiences and a positive outlook on life, even to the point of unabashed joy! I think the correct term for it is 'peak experiences'. I have them almost daily, and I really like the festivals and all that goes with them - the preparation, the anticipation, the music, the satsang and the darshan. I think it's the healthiest, most benign and natural fun one can have. No hangover, no abortions and no broken hearts there. So I repeat, I can't see why does it bother someone if I dish out 20$ for a three-day registration fee for a programme or 35$ for a 110 minute video that I really find inspiring? It's not like I am asking you to pay for it. It's my money, and I am not saying you should be doing what I do, at all.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 11:45:41 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Mili, If I didn't tell you what a jerk you are, I would be pissed off. If you get pleasure from angering someone by trying to sabotage the means you have of communicating with them, and then use that media yourself, you are a hypocrit. Apparently you are angry that ex-premies are saying exactly what they think. That pisses you off, and you want to retaliate. There isn't much you can do, so you do wimpy, petty things like trying to shut the newsgroup down, and purposefully trying to frustrate people on the forum, by acting like an imbecile. Even more aberrant is your taking pleasure from getting negative attention. Don't you love it when people call you names? Here's the thing I've learned Mili: Honesty is really great. It's the best thing there is. I know it isn't always possible in the world we live in, and it's dissappointing when honesty has to be sacrificed to accomplish a goal. But very little is worth being dishonest about, and no ongoing endeavor is worth being consistantly dishonest about. Honesty is the first thing we should strive for, and the last thing too, even if we can't succeed every single time. Things like close personal relationships and efforts to know our own selves should be built on a foundation of complete honesty. The notion that a stupid guru has to tell a mountain of fibs, and manipulate poor ignorant people to realize God is just plain dirty. Tell the truth, tell your guru to tell the truth and stop defending his lies. It doesn't accomplish anything in the end.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:08:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, Your 'defence' of Maharaji is amazing. What about honesty? You dismiss Indians as quaint savages who seem to like being fooled by false Gods. How patronizing and dismissive of both Maharaji and his native sub-continent.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:30:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Mili, If I didn't tell you what a jerk you are, I would be pissed off. If you get pleasure from angering someone by trying to sabotage the means you have of communicating with them, and then use that media yourself, you are a hypocrit. Apparently you are angry that ex-premies are saying exactly what they think. That pisses you off, and you want to retaliate. There isn't much you can do, so you do wimpy, petty things like trying to shut the newsgroup down, and purposefully trying to frustrate people on the forum, by acting like an imbecile. Even more aberrant is your taking pleasure from getting negative attention. Don't you love it when people call you names? Here's the thing I've learned Mili: Honesty is really great. It's the best thing there is. I know it isn't always possible in the world we live in, and it's dissappointing when honesty has to be sacrificed to accomplish a goal. But very little is worth being dishonest about, and no ongoing endeavor is worth being consistantly dishonest about. Honesty is the first thing we should strive for, and the last thing too, even if we can't succeed every single time. Things like close personal relationships and efforts to know our own selves should be built on a foundation of complete honesty. The notion that a stupid guru has to tell a mountain of fibs, and manipulate poor ignorant people to realize God is just plain dirty. Tell the truth, tell your guru to tell the truth and stop defending his lies. It doesn't accomplish anything in the end. Rick, I honestly couldn't care less about what you think of me, and I honestly have no regrets for trying to shut your scandalous, prejudiced, bigoted, irrelevant newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji down. Oh yeah, I honestly think you are just a sorry little dick-headed loser who is trying to find solace here in the foetid company of those of your ilk.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:51:44 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But, Mili, what about the OTHER way? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, Your 'defence' of Maharaji is amazing. What about honesty? You dismiss Indians as quaint savages who seem to like being fooled by false Gods. How patronizing and dismissive of both Maharaji and his native sub-continent. Yes, Jim, what about honesty - how about not putting your personal 'revelations' into my mouth?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:55:57 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Mili, I remember reading a post from you that you didn't try to shut down the newgroup. Learninig the lying technique from your guru, Mili? As you beging that decline into insults because you avoid honest conversation and whose company are you in here bub? Your right in it with the rest of us against your guru's direct orders as I understand it. I feel a sarcastic edge to my writing and I wanted so to see a good, vunerable side of you, but I guess not today. Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 13:06:17 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mili
Subject: to Mili (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, You said:The Knowledge gives me very nice experiences and a positive outlook on life, even to the point of unabashed joy! I think the correct term for it is 'peak experiences'. I have them almost daily' I haven't ever seen any evidence of this positive outlook on life or the unabashed joy you feel. I am not doubting their existance in your life I'd just love to see some evidence of them here. I would be so refreshing. Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 13:16:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: to Mili (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, You said:The Knowledge gives me very nice experiences and a positive outlook on life, even to the point of unabashed joy! I think the correct term for it is 'peak experiences'. I have them almost daily' I haven't ever seen any evidence of this positive outlook on life or the unabashed joy you feel. I am not doubting their existance in your life I'd just love to see some evidence of them here. I would be so refreshing. Robyn Robyn, That's one of the handicaps of the Internet, I guess. I wish you could feel the exhilaration that I feel when I am calling a spade a spade here, namely Mr Ex a sorry piece of garbage, Jim a devious, dishonest manipulator and Rick and Brian two twin dickheads welded to the same tree.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:05:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Mili jams out (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili, Your 'defence' of Maharaji is amazing. What about honesty? You dismiss Indians as quaint savages who seem to like being fooled by false Gods. How patronizing and dismissive of both Maharaji and his native sub-continent. Yes, Jim, what about honesty - how about not putting your personal 'revelations' into my mouth? Mili, What's so funny is that everyone here who reads this -- with the exception of Katie, perhaps -- recognizes what a boor you are. Oh, sorry to challenge your 'sincerity.' Ha ha ha. Thanks for the laugh, bud.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:35:42 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: My big faux pas (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili: What a foot paw! I forgot a sigmoid, sorry. How thoughtful of you to take notice of these critical details. I think is misspelled 'fugue' too. BTW the rule is 'i' before 'e' except after 'c,' speaking of which: If so, I'd just like to comment that I beleive that we are ALL God. God is the only thing that, in fact, exists. Only we are not always aware of it. Now, why didn't Jesus just tell Pilate, 'We are all children of God aren't we?' That, or some similar obfuscation would have gotten him off the hook. He was given numerous chances to get it right. By the same token Peter could have said, (on being given the opportunity to recant his story about the resurrection) 'We all live on after death, don't we?' It's a puzzler. Wonder why they didn't do that? The way you put it, it seems so simple... BTW, if you're God do you then have license to lie whenever you feel like it? Oh,... I get it. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:42:59 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: One too many sigmoids that time. Oopzzzz! (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili: What a foot paw! I forgot a sigmoid, sorry. How thoughtful of you to take notice of these critical details. I think I misspelled 'fugue' too. BTW the rule is 'i' before 'e' except after 'c,' speaking of which: If so, I'd just like to comment that I beleive that we are ALL God. God is the only thing that, in fact, exists. Only we are not always aware of it. Now, why didn't Jesus just tell Pilate, 'We are all children of God aren't we?' That, or some similar obfuscation would have gotten him off the hook. He was given numerous chances to get it right. By the same token Peter could have said, (on being given the opportunity to recant his story about the resurrection) 'We all live on after death, don't we?' It's a puzzler. Wonder why they didn't do that? The way you put it, it seems so simple... BTW, if you're God do you then have license to lie whenever you feel like it? Oh,... I get it. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 15:29:09 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: My big faux pas (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
OK Scott, let's cut thru all this bullshit. Here is a direct quote: Q: Who are you? A: Well, what is inside of me, what I really am, not talking in terms of body, is that most supreme energy, which is within inside of you also. But you don't know it, it has to be revealed. August 1973, Boston So, you see if Maharaji says he is NOT God, he refers to the body, and to the mind. God is the supreme energy within.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 16:10:31 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Mili's idiocy knows no bounds (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
OK Scott, let's cut thru all this bullshit. Here is a direct quote: Q: Who are you? A: Well, what is inside of me, what I really am, not talking in terms of body, is that most supreme energy, which is within inside of you also. But you don't know it, it has to be revealed. August 1973, Boston So, you see if Maharaji says he is NOT God, he refers to the body, and to the mind. God is the supreme energy within. Here's another direct quote: One day, not know but one day, years from now, maybe even decades, I will still want your money but not as much as I do now. That, dear premies, will be the beginning of your retirement plan. Until then, trust me. Trust me to do what I think is right. After all, if I wanted any advice, I'd ask for it, right? Yes, I am the same as you and that's why you should give me just a little more money. After all, who else will you give it to? Some total stranger. Someone who's going to come up behind you with a bullet gun and rob you blind? Someone who will drag you into an alley and may say all sorts of mean things to you? Someone who DOESN'T speak the language of the heart? See, dear premies, and this is a true point -- I'm not afraid to say this -- at 9:00 sharp I will turn on the television and eat a sandwhich. I will then have a little drink and start calling old classmates from St. Joseph's Academy. I will then call my secretary and ask her to show me some of the funnier cards and letters we received from premies from ALL OVER THE WORLD. I should also say, and this is something I've been talking with Michael about, but I think it's time I let you guys in on it. I'm looking for a little land where we could really open up and share. My plan is to let you buy it for me and then to charge you everytime you come there. Right now, though, I'm going to go. Maybe Mahatma Ji can sing you a song about me. I want to watch tv and have a sandwich. Mark my words, at 9:00 I will start watching.'
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 16:55:20 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: My big faux pas (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Mili: I apologize for trying to push this new rationality standard of transparency. But it's not just that I'm putting you down for not dealing with the totality of what he says, and the revealed intent behind it... Take the quote: ' Well, what is inside of me, what I really am, not talking in terms of body, is that most supreme energy, which is within inside of you also.' Last time I checked even the 'most supreme energy' was physical, by definition. But perhaps, again, he means something other than what he's saying? For me, saying that what I really am is what is inside me, and that this is the most supreme energy, does not even measure up to what I know about who I am. I have an identity. I have integrity. I have value, and can set that value or at least negotiate it. He is... now, what's the term?.. obfuscating. My point about JC and Peter, as well as the rest of the Apostles all of whom died torturous deaths, was that it did not even enter their heads to obfuscate. Not even a little. We'd have to ask Valcon (no offense if I misspelled your name) how that squares with a GLOBAL standard of spirituality. To me, it's not a bad place to start. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 18:21:36 (EST)
Poster: qrptys
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Move it up to the top, but change the title (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:55:48 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's dishonesty knows no bounds (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
OK Scott, let's cut thru all this bullshit. Here is a direct quote: Q: Who are you? A: Well, what is inside of me, what I really am, not talking in terms of body, is that most supreme energy, which is within inside of you also. But you don't know it, it has to be revealed. August 1973, Boston So, you see if Maharaji says he is NOT God, he refers to the body, and to the mind. God is the supreme energy within. Here's another direct quote: One day, not know but one day, years from now, maybe even decades, I will still want your money but not as much as I do now. That, dear premies, will be the beginning of your retirement plan. Until then, trust me. Trust me to do what I think is right. After all, if I wanted any advice, I'd ask for it, right? Yes, I am the same as you and that's why you should give me just a little more money. After all, who else will you give it to? Some total stranger. Someone who's going to come up behind you with a bullet gun and rob you blind? Someone who will drag you into an alley and may say all sorts of mean things to you? Someone who DOESN'T speak the language of the heart? See, dear premies, and this is a true point -- I'm not afraid to say this -- at 9:00 sharp I will turn on the television and eat a sandwhich. I will then have a little drink and start calling old classmates from St. Joseph's Academy. I will then call my secretary and ask her to show me some of the funnier cards and letters we received from premies from ALL OVER THE WORLD. I should also say, and this is something I've been talking with Michael about, but I think it's time I let you guys in on it. I'm looking for a little land where we could really open up and share. My plan is to let you buy it for me and then to charge you everytime you come there. Right now, though, I'm going to go. Maybe Mahatma Ji can sing you a song about me. I want to watch tv and have a sandwich. Mark my words, at 9:00 I will start watching.' Here you are folks - Jim playing his sick mind games to a hilt. A poseur, a liar. His corruption knows no bounds. A coward - afraid to sign his name at the end.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 08:50:41 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Brian, having a civilized discussion in this Forum is beyond you. You're even worse at it than me! The only time I've been able to keep up with the Forum lately is right after I reset it. Maybe a bit less sarcasm is correctly called for. I lapse into it very easily. You and I have bantered back and forth for over a year now, Mili. Every time I make a concerted effort to address your points seriously, you forget the subject and don't respond. Tell you what: A long time ago I directed a question to you that went unanswered. I believe you ducked it because you don't want to lie about it, and because you believe that an honest answer would only add fuel to ex's claims that Maharaji is more a selfish tyrant concerned with himself than he is a teacher concerned with his students. Answer the question and I'll be able to resond to your posts from now on with a new-found respect for you. Were you contacted by EV or PAM (people around Maharaji) and requested to take PREMIE.COM and/or PREMIE.ORG offline? All references to MJ dried up on those sites, being replaced with evasiveness. Simple question. BTW, I have to say that I really respected your arguing with the woman in the newsgroup who wanted you to remove MJ references on the 'Satsang Page'. It was depressing to me personally to see you later cave in and remove them. I lost repect for you very reluctantly at that time.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 09:04:52 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Brian
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Brian, having a civilized discussion in this Forum is beyond you. You're even worse at it than me! The only time I've been able to keep up with the Forum lately is right after I reset it. Maybe a bit less sarcasm is correctly called for. I lapse into it very easily. You and I have bantered back and forth for over a year now, Mili. Every time I make a concerted effort to address your points seriously, you forget the subject and don't respond. Tell you what: A long time ago I directed a question to you that went unanswered. I believe you ducked it because you don't want to lie about it, and because you believe that an honest answer would only add fuel to ex's claims that Maharaji is more a selfish tyrant concerned with himself than he is a teacher concerned with his students. Answer the question and I'll be able to resond to your posts from now on with a new-found respect for you. Were you contacted by EV or PAM (people around Maharaji) and requested to take PREMIE.COM and/or PREMIE.ORG offline? All references to MJ dried up on those sites, being replaced with evasiveness. Simple question. BTW, I have to say that I really respected your arguing with the woman in the newsgroup who wanted you to remove MJ references on the 'Satsang Page'. It was depressing to me personally to see you later cave in and remove them. I lost repect for you very reluctantly at that time. Yeah, sure Brian, I'll answer your question - I was contacted just like you, actually passed a message from PAM, to the effect that Maharaji had clearly said that he doesn't want a presence on the Internet and could we please comply, if we wanted to. You probably realize by now that Premie.org was an entirely amateur effort. I also heard that we were not doing a good job with it anyway, because 'we were running too exclusive a club'. So, premie.org was scratched. Satisfied? So, do we go back now to the business of making idiots out of each other here and insulting each other, or what?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:58:02 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Then why'd you lie about it earlier, Mili? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Brian, having a civilized discussion in this Forum is beyond you. You're even worse at it than me! The only time I've been able to keep up with the Forum lately is right after I reset it. Maybe a bit less sarcasm is correctly called for. I lapse into it very easily. You and I have bantered back and forth for over a year now, Mili. Every time I make a concerted effort to address your points seriously, you forget the subject and don't respond. Tell you what: A long time ago I directed a question to you that went unanswered. I believe you ducked it because you don't want to lie about it, and because you believe that an honest answer would only add fuel to ex's claims that Maharaji is more a selfish tyrant concerned with himself than he is a teacher concerned with his students. Answer the question and I'll be able to resond to your posts from now on with a new-found respect for you. Were you contacted by EV or PAM (people around Maharaji) and requested to take PREMIE.COM and/or PREMIE.ORG offline? All references to MJ dried up on those sites, being replaced with evasiveness. Simple question. BTW, I have to say that I really respected your arguing with the woman in the newsgroup who wanted you to remove MJ references on the 'Satsang Page'. It was depressing to me personally to see you later cave in and remove them. I lost repect for you very reluctantly at that time. Yeah, sure Brian, I'll answer your question - I was contacted just like you, actually passed a message from PAM, to the effect that Maharaji had clearly said that he doesn't want a presence on the Internet and could we please comply, if we wanted to. You probably realize by now that Premie.org was an entirely amateur effort. I also heard that we were not doing a good job with it anyway, because 'we were running too exclusive a club'. So, premie.org was scratched. Satisfied? So, do we go back now to the business of making idiots out of each other here and insulting each other, or what? Hate to be a pest, but haven't you miantained until now that no one told you to shut the site down, certainly not any Poor Ass-kissers of Maharaji (PAM)? Where, dear Mili, does basic honesty enter into your human interaction?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 14:12:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Hey, Mili, you crusty old Croat, it's a joke (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
OK Scott, let's cut thru all this bullshit. Here is a direct quote: Q: Who are you? A: Well, what is inside of me, what I really am, not talking in terms of body, is that most supreme energy, which is within inside of you also. But you don't know it, it has to be revealed. August 1973, Boston So, you see if Maharaji says he is NOT God, he refers to the body, and to the mind. God is the supreme energy within. Here's another direct quote: One day, not know but one day, years from now, maybe even decades, I will still want your money but not as much as I do now. That, dear premies, will be the beginning of your retirement plan. Until then, trust me. Trust me to do what I think is right. After all, if I wanted any advice, I'd ask for it, right? Yes, I am the same as you and that's why you should give me just a little more money. After all, who else will you give it to? Some total stranger. Someone who's going to come up behind you with a bullet gun and rob you blind? Someone who will drag you into an alley and may say all sorts of mean things to you? Someone who DOESN'T speak the language of the heart? See, dear premies, and this is a true point -- I'm not afraid to say this -- at 9:00 sharp I will turn on the television and eat a sandwhich. I will then have a little drink and start calling old classmates from St. Joseph's Academy. I will then call my secretary and ask her to show me some of the funnier cards and letters we received from premies from ALL OVER THE WORLD. I should also say, and this is something I've been talking with Michael about, but I think it's time I let you guys in on it. I'm looking for a little land where we could really open up and share. My plan is to let you buy it for me and then to charge you everytime you come there. Right now, though, I'm going to go. Maybe Mahatma Ji can sing you a song about me. I want to watch tv and have a sandwich. Mark my words, at 9:00 I will start watching.' Here you are folks - Jim playing his sick mind games to a hilt. A poseur, a liar. His corruption knows no bounds. A coward - afraid to sign his name at the end. Mili, Didn't you think it was a LITTLE funny even?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:03:26 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, Mili, you crusty old Croat, it's a joke (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Here's another direct quote: One day, not know but one day, years from now, maybe even decades, I will still want your money but not as much as I do now. That, dear premies, will be the beginning of your retirement plan. Until then, trust me. Trust me to do what I think is right. After all, if I wanted any advice, I'd ask for it, right? Yes, I am the same as you and that's why you should give me just a little more money. After all, who else will you give it to? Some total stranger. Someone who's going to come up behind you with a bullet gun and rob you blind? Someone who will drag you into an alley and may say all sorts of mean things to you? Someone who DOESN'T speak the language of the heart? See, dear premies, and this is a true point -- I'm not afraid to say this -- at 9:00 sharp I will turn on the television and eat a sandwhich. I will then have a little drink and start calling old classmates from St. Joseph's Academy. I will then call my secretary and ask her to show me some of the funnier cards and letters we received from premies from ALL OVER THE WORLD. I should also say, and this is something I've been talking with Michael about, but I think it's time I let you guys in on it. I'm looking for a little land where we could really open up and share. My plan is to let you buy it for me and then to charge you everytime you come there. Right now, though, I'm going to go. Maybe Mahatma Ji can sing you a song about me. I want to watch tv and have a sandwich. Mark my words, at 9:00 I will start watching.' Here you are folks - Jim playing his sick mind games to a hilt. A poseur, a liar. His corruption knows no bounds. A coward - afraid to sign his name at the end. Mili, Didn't you think it was a LITTLE funny even? Jim, the joke is on you.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:37:18 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Then why'd you lie about it earlier, Mili? (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Brian, having a civilized discussion in this Forum is beyond you. You're even worse at it than me! The only time I've been able to keep up with the Forum lately is right after I reset it. Maybe a bit less sarcasm is correctly called for. I lapse into it very easily. You and I have bantered back and forth for over a year now, Mili. Every time I make a concerted effort to address your points seriously, you forget the subject and don't respond. Tell you what: A long time ago I directed a question to you that went unanswered. I believe you ducked it because you don't want to lie about it, and because you believe that an honest answer would only add fuel to ex's claims that Maharaji is more a selfish tyrant concerned with himself than he is a teacher concerned with his students. Answer the question and I'll be able to resond to your posts from now on with a new-found respect for you. Were you contacted by EV or PAM (people around Maharaji) and requested to take PREMIE.COM and/or PREMIE.ORG offline? All references to MJ dried up on those sites, being replaced with evasiveness. Simple question. BTW, I have to say that I really respected your arguing with the woman in the newsgroup who wanted you to remove MJ references on the 'Satsang Page'. It was depressing to me personally to see you later cave in and remove them. I lost repect for you very reluctantly at that time. Yeah, sure Brian, I'll answer your question - I was contacted just like you, actually passed a message from PAM, to the effect that Maharaji had clearly said that he doesn't want a presence on the Internet and could we please comply, if we wanted to. You probably realize by now that Premie.org was an entirely amateur effort. I also heard that we were not doing a good job with it anyway, because 'we were running too exclusive a club'. So, premie.org was scratched. Satisfied? So, do we go back now to the business of making idiots out of each other here and insulting each other, or what? Hate to be a pest, but haven't you miantained until now that no one told you to shut the site down, certainly not any Poor Ass-kissers of Maharaji (PAM)? Where, dear Mili, does basic honesty enter into your human interaction? Jim, I don't think you have any moral right to preach to me about basic honesty after the stunt you pulled last night. In fact, you have no authority to preach about anything, least of all the Knowledge which you have obviously had very superficial experiences with, and Maharaji's private life about which you know next to nothing about, and yet you persist in slandering him.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:17:14 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: You're a lummox, Mili (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Oh Mili, You are such a clown! I can barely contain myself. You simply lied for months about whether or not Maharaji put any pressure on you to close the page. You simply lied. What I did was a simple, transparent April Fool's joke. You can't even begin to compare them, you idiot. You have no scruples and no common sense. You're just a liar, Mili.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:47:04 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: You're a Turd, Jim (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Jim, You are such a obnoxious splotch of scum, I hope I never see you in my life. If you look the any way you come off on the Internet, I think I would have to take an anti-vomiting pill before we meet. The post where you described your childhood as a rich spoiled kid certainly explained your demeanor. You are still a rich, selfish, spoiled brat. Only now you are probably bald and fat. You are also probably an only child, right? No brothers or sisters. Never grew up. Laurie is playing the role of mama now - 'Laurie, I wanna titty.' You surround yourself with things, warped memories and virtual friends. How did you ever have the guts to go to a dinner with premies after spending a year here daily spitting on their Guru and telling lies about him? You are such a despicable, perverted slob that its hard to imagine God's mercy to let you live on for one more day. Your whole life is a lie.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 18:02:07 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You're a lummox, Mili (Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?)
Message:
Oh Mili, You are such a clown! I can barely contain myself. You simply lied for months about whether or not Maharaji put any pressure on you to close the page. You simply lied. What I did was a simple, transparent April Fool's joke. You can't even begin to compare them, you idiot. You have no scruples and no common sense. You're just a liar, Mili. No, Jim, not lying. Simply witholding information. Governments do it all the time. What you did was a perversion. A psychopath's idea of fun.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 22:42:40 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Well, Mili? What'd y'all come up with?
Message:
Yeah, sure Brian, I'll answer your question - I was contacted just like you, actually passed a message from PAM, to the effect that Maharaji had clearly said that he doesn't want a presence on the Internet and could we please comply, if we wanted to. You probably realize by now that Premie.org was an entirely amateur effort. I also heard that we were not doing a good job with it anyway, because 'we were running too exclusive a club'. So, premie.org was scratched. I didn't view premie.org as an amateur effort at all, other than it wasn't being run for profit. But neither is this site. I wasn't happy about the censorship there, but since taking over here I can say that I understand why it might have been imposed. The posts from premies there were heart-felt and caused no harm to anyone. I don't agree with the conclusions drawn by people who receive knowledge that devotion to Maharaji is the fuel that causes life's blessing to flow. Perhaps devotion to something, but not to a person. And certainly not to the extent that his wants supercede those of the people who are drawn to some light that is supposed to illuminate their lives. I only found premie.org (.com at the time) because I wanted to resolve a lot of old business about this that I'd left pending in my life during my child-support years. I did a web search and found this site and the other one. Also found your own site. I read all of them, and made my own decision about how I actually felt. But I was fortunate at the time that I had more than one source of information. If EV had been sponsoring a site I would have read it all too. So, do we go back now to the business of making idiots out of each other here and insulting each other, or what? There isn't anything to win. Sometimes I do enjoy the arguing and debating, but I have my own viewpoint about my time around MJ. I gained something from it, but also feel that I sacrificed a lot by believing him in regards to what role he said he should play in my life, and what role I should play in his plans. I was sad to see the site disappear when I knew what it meant to the people posting there to have an outlet for the feelings that MJ encourages them to express when it suits him. Wish you'd kept it is all. I don't have any axe to grind with premies and am trying to ensure that they can continue to post here and that the rules cut both ways. Much of what they post I disagree with personally, but I look back fondly (?!) on the time I was involved. My axe is for Maharaji wielding the power entrusted to him by his devotees so selfishly and callously.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:39:38 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mr. Ex
Subject: Marolyn's letter?
Message:
My dear Mr. Ex, What's happening with Marolyn's letter? Didn't you say you were going to post it a while back? Can't wait. Thanks, Jim
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 03:51:08 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Marolyn's letter? Patient! (Re: Marolyn's letter?)
Message:
As I've already explained, I'm not the one that letter was intended to. I have to discuss this with that friend. There is not much in that letter anyway, beside pages and pages and pages of 'satsang' (like in the 'old days')- when the reason of that letter was a real problem that my friend had expressed to her regarding a very serious issue (she obviously didn't want to address, she was almost denying it, how could such 'premie' do this) - and that statement where she says that people who leave maharaji are really assholes. I haven't talked to her about it yet, I will, asap.
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Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 09:43:19 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Marolyn's letter? Good news! (Re: Marolyn's letter?)
Message:
I'm going to work with the person who's received that letter on next monday, in order to make it perfectly understandable. Because: Marolyn answers questions of that person, and addresses issues that could not be clear for anybody if you don't know why she wrote what she wrote. As my friend doesn't want to have her life explained in details on the Internet, we'll have to make all the issues clear though. Requires some work. Be patient, you'll be amazed.
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Date: Fri, Apr 3, 1998 at 15:17:17 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Marolyn's letter? Good news! (Re: Marolyn's letter?)
Message:
Waiting with baited breath. Thanks, Mr. Ex Rick
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 13:02:28 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To Jim
Message:
Jim, The quotes you make reference to, of maharaji's claims to be Lord, are helpful in clarifying the history of DLM. It's clear from current premie-talk and the appearance of the general presentation of knowledge that this has changed. Maharaji also omits these kinds of references in his recent speeches. I was wondering if there are any specific instances, though, where he clearly denies being Lord/God etc. I suppose if there were, it would increase my contempt. I'm a bit cantankerous and I wouldn't mind that. Rick
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 14:18:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: To Jim
Message:
Jim, The quotes you make reference to, of maharaji's claims to be Lord, are helpful in clarifying the history of DLM. It's clear from current premie-talk and the appearance of the general presentation of knowledge that this has changed. Maharaji also omits these kinds of references in his recent speeches. I was wondering if there are any specific instances, though, where he clearly denies being Lord/God etc. I suppose if there were, it would increase my contempt. I'm a bit cantankerous and I wouldn't mind that. Rick Rick, Yes, I was just thinking the same thing last night. I'll look. Meanwhile, I wonder if anyone else has something of that ilk. I'll tell you though, Rick, I don't think it's ever been his style to categorically reject his 'divinity.' You know how he is.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:49:26 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: To Jim
Message:
Jim, The quotes you make reference to, of maharaji's claims to be Lord, are helpful in clarifying the history of DLM. It's clear from current premie-talk and the appearance of the general presentation of knowledge that this has changed. Maharaji also omits these kinds of references in his recent speeches. I was wondering if there are any specific instances, though, where he clearly denies being Lord/God etc. I suppose if there were, it would increase my contempt. I'm a bit cantankerous and I wouldn't mind that. Rick Rick: I've said before that I received a reply to a letter I wrote in the early 80s concerning whether he is or is not the Messiah. The letter categorically denies it. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the darn thing, and it was written by a secretary or delegated correspondence person anyway, so I suppose that strictly speaking it's still deniable. -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 16:27:17 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: He's evolved beyond the Messiah (Re: To Jim)
Message:
Don't you think it's true that if God really wanted to 'save' the world, then he would simply go ahead and eliminate all suffering, evil, etc and we would all live happily ever after? A 'real' messiah apparently did come 2,000 years ago and the world is still a total mess. So what good is a messiah anyway? I rec'd Knowledge and ten years after was still as screwed up as ever. Come on y'all! he's just a meditation teacher, he was fooling around in the 70's, can't ya take a little joke?! He's just offering a nice easy way to feel a little peace after a hard day at the office. BTW, for 100 bonus points, what acid rock band did I refer to in the above post?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:01:20 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: To Jim
Message:
It's a shame that you can't find that. I would be interested in that. Dig deep.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:02:35 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: To Jim
Message:
Jim, The quotes you make reference to, of maharaji's claims to be Lord, are helpful in clarifying the history of DLM. It's clear from current premie-talk and the appearance of the general presentation of knowledge that this has changed. Maharaji also omits these kinds of references in his recent speeches. I was wondering if there are any specific instances, though, where he clearly denies being Lord/God etc. I suppose if there were, it would increase my contempt. I'm a bit cantankerous and I wouldn't mind that. Rick In the last archive there is a post from a premie, I can't recall who, that says that in the 80s Maharaji held a program and some of the newly-ex ashram premies (who had just been thrown out onto the street)were freaking out and Maharaji said he didn't want to be worshipped anymore. I asked if anyone could confirm this, but no one did. I would be surprised if Maharaji has ever said that, and I also doubt that Maharaji has ever said he ISN'T god. I strongly believe he won't say he IS, either, I think he believes he is always ahead if he lets people believe what they want to believe, and so doesn't say WHAT he is. But his actions, like darshan, etc. speak MUCH louder than what he says. Clearly, he BELIEVES he is god or close to it. And as for being worshipped, the little jerk has plausabile deniability, such that he can say he never ASKED to be worshipped but is nonetheless, and doesn't discourage it, and perhaps never SAID he was god, but he doesn't deny it when the premies or others say he is. That way, he can try to have it both ways.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:07:47 (EST)
Poster: David
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: John K.
Subject: Re: He's evolved beyond the Messiah (Re: To Jim)
Message:
'Ten Years After' was the group. Good but make the next one a bit harder. Regarding Maharaji not saying he was God; the last time I saw him was at the Wembley Conference Centre in London in 1986. After giving his satsang he did a question and answer session. Someone asked him about his God status and I remember his answer well. He made a big point about this answer. 'Let me make it quite clear now, I AM NOT GOD'. He was emphatic about it. Now this was fine except that over half of the people in that program had heard him say otherwise during the seventies. It was a complete U-Turn. What stuck in mt throat a bit was the mocking tone in his voice when he said 'I am not God'. I could tell that he was treating the very thought that someone thought he might be God as completely crazy. He was using a mocking tone. It is sad that Maharaji has such little understanding of other people. Perhaps sociopath would be the best description. I don't think he's all bad because he really just doesn't understand the effects he has had on people. Maharaji could have done a lot of good if he had been more aware of others and had developed compassion. Alas, the Hindu religion moves people away from such feelings. I think Maharaji, like many before him, had great potential, but his failure to understand his fellow humans has stopped things from growing.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:41:23 (EST)
Poster: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: David & JW (below)
Subject: Re: He's evolved beyond the Messiah (Re: To Jim)
Message:
'Ten Years After' was the group. Good but make the next one a bit harder. Regarding Maharaji not saying he was God; the last time I saw him was at the Wembley Conference Centre in London in 1986. After giving his satsang he did a question and answer session. Someone asked him about his God status and I remember his answer well. He made a big point about this answer. 'Let me make it quite clear now, I AM NOT GOD'. He was emphatic about it. Now this was fine except that over half of the people in that program had heard him say otherwise during the seventies. It was a complete U-Turn. What stuck in mt throat a bit was the mocking tone in his voice when he said 'I am not God'. I could tell that he was treating the very thought that someone thought he might be God as completely crazy. He was using a mocking tone. It is sad that Maharaji has such little understanding of other people. Perhaps sociopath would be the best description. I don't think he's all bad because he really just doesn't understand the effects he has had on people. Maharaji could have done a lot of good if he had been more aware of others and had developed compassion. Alas, the Hindu religion moves people away from such feelings. I think Maharaji, like many before him, had great potential, but his failure to understand his fellow humans has stopped things from growing. I last saw Maharaj Ji in 1986, like you David, but at the Birmingham arena. It was a very strange event, very much the way you described it, with a ludicrous question and answer thing that didn't answer any of the important questions. I was trying to get back into Knowledge at the time, and the week after I went to see an old premie friend who had just become an initiator. As I mentioned in my 'Journey', Maharaj Ji told him quite specifically during his preparation 'I am exactly the same as you are'. I got the impression that my friend was in a slightly confused place himself, trying to reconcile his new status as a long-serving devotee finally receiving due recognition, with this scaled-down Maharaj Ji who no longer claimed to be anyone in particular. PS> I saw Ten Years After thirty years ago. They were crap. I guess if they reformed they'd have to be Forty Years Later or something.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 19:56:02 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: David
Subject: Evolved beyond Messiah. (Re: To Jim)
Message:
David: Regarding: I could tell that he was treating the very thought that someone thought he might be God as completely crazy. This explains some of the posts we got from time to time by current premies, who claim that anyone who ever thought MJ to be God must have been 'completely crazy.' Yeah, sure. We just didn't understand it was all a joke. -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 09:06:39 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: The Forum Move
Message:
Barring any last minute bugs popping up that would prevent it, the last Forum 2 reset will be Saturday morning. I'll then replace the page header (Logo and Links at the top of the index) with a We've Moved notice and a link to Forum 3. We'll then be able to blame any forum problems on the idiot handling Ex-Premie.Org itself, rather than the idiots handling Paradise. I'll also reset the messages on Forum 3 at that time, so we'll start off with a squeaky-clean one. The only bug that I know may still be lurking is the Lynx one. [I need more posts from you, David, to be certain that I have it nailed down. Post every day this week if you can. I'll put the trap back if it's needed.] There will be no reset on the new forum as they exist here. Instead there are 2 indexes - one contains Active messages, and the other contains Inactive messages. New posts show up in the Active index. When the index contains a certain number, any new posts cause the bottom thread to be moved to the Inactive index. They can still be read there, but you won't be able to reply to those. Consider them semi-archived. When the Inactive index reaches a certain size, I'll compile them into an archive and delete them. If I keel over dead before the limit on total messages in both indexes is reached without an archive being compiled, then the forum will lock to posting (although you will still be able to read messages in either index). Katie will be the new webmaster, and I'll be doing some fast talking to MJ in Heaven. Periodically, you'll find the forum locked as I run an archive. I've always wondered what happens to posts on Paradise if they come in as I'm archiving them. It can't happen on the new one, as I can lock it during the process. There will be a message shown with the lock notice that will expain what I'm up to at the time. You won't need to reset your visited links until we've reached 1.6 million posts. Should be a couple of weeks at the rate you guys talk. As for password protecting the forum, it's not implimented at this time. I was pretty frustrated with Paradise not protecting us from ourselves, let alone from attack from someone else. If I could have found software that worked like I wanted, I would have got some that was password protected. But I've cooled down since then and am able to deal directly with whatever problems crop up, so I'm not in any hurry to do this. There are some real advantages to having passwords and user accounts, but there are big drawbacks too. I'll leave it up to you people to decide if you want it or not. Message size is limited, as are input field sizes. The forum locks if someone were to try to post-bomb the site. I can patch a quick block on any IP that would prevent posting from there. The echoed posts that have been occurring on Paradise are also prevented from happening, whether the user hits BACK or not. If any do occur, it would have to be through intentional fiddling by the person posting and could be dealt with.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 09:26:47 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Re: The Forum Move
Message:
Brian, just wanted to say thanks, publically, for all the work you've done on constructing the new Forum from the bottom up. Maybe you really ARE the lord of the universe... or at least of the web. Your humble assistant (one of them, anyway.) Katie
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:45:11 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Oh!, how many times I did hear the perfect one say that the ultimate goal in this life was to 'realize knowledge', and yet even the devoutest of initiators (people such as Ira Woods) with whom seemed to encaptured super human devotion and who could meditate until cob webs draped their stationary form, never came even close to this ellusive goal. To my knowledge, only the great one has accomplished this feat and he was only 6 at the time. I have noted that anyone who as dared mention to the divine one that they believe they are close to the ultimate goal have been severely rebuked. What does he fear?.. a challenge to his throne perhaps. Perhaps I am mistaken, maybe only 6 year olds are destined to unlock the secrets of the universe, in which case forget it people we have all missed our chance.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:06:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Oh!, how many times I did hear the perfect one say that the ultimate goal in this life was to 'realize knowledge', and yet even the devoutest of initiators (people such as Ira Woods) with whom seemed to encaptured super human devotion and who could meditate until cob webs draped their stationary form, never came even close to this ellusive goal. To my knowledge, only the great one has accomplished this feat and he was only 6 at the time. I have noted that anyone who as dared mention to the divine one that they believe they are close to the ultimate goal have been severely rebuked. What does he fear?.. a challenge to his throne perhaps. Perhaps I am mistaken, maybe only 6 year olds are destined to unlock the secrets of the universe, in which case forget it people we have all missed our chance. You're absolutely right, Steve. Long before I began to doubt Maharaji I was confused by the way he dropped this central part of the program. It used to be all about 'realizing knowledge'. That is until the mid 70s. Here's a little speculation for ya'-- Maharaji starts getting laid regularly (late 73?)and suddenly forgets that the whole goal he's been pitching is about intense ego renunciation and universal consciousness. Those nights he double-dated with his older brother Raja Ji and their to foxy ladies must have put the cosmic path -- fake as it wa to start with -- deep into the background.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:15:36 (EST)
Poster: Steve A
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Dear Jim Perhaps realizing knowledge is not the the ultimate goal, it seems M has found the need to realize sex.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:28:29 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Steve and Jim, I am trying not to spend much time here as I am starting to help Brian a bit but I couldn't pass this one up. I have been confused since reading on the forum about celibacy. It was never pushed that I remember but I never lived in an ashram. What I do remember though is when M began to realize sex. I was at a festival in Miami and he was giving satsang and told everyone to go forth and propagate. I did my share and concived while there but definitely made the connection to his newest realization and his 'decree'. At least he wasn't trying to keep all the fun to himself! Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:47:41 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Robyn: Regarding: What I do remember though is when M began to realize sex. I was at a festival in Miami and he was giving satsang and told everyone to go forth and propagate. Sheesh, and I thought 'go forth an prop-a-gate' meant to go lean on the door. Now I really feel stupid! -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 11:22:47 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott (Re: Realizing Knowledge )
Message:
Scott, Sorry you missed that bit of 'legitimized' fun! Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 12:31:17 (EST)
Poster: eb
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Steve and Jim, I am trying not to spend much time here as I am starting to help Brian a bit but I couldn't pass this one up. I have been confused since reading on the forum about celibacy. It was never pushed that I remember but I never lived in an ashram. What I do remember though is when M began to realize sex. I was at a festival in Miami and he was giving satsang and told everyone to go forth and propagate. I did my share and concived while there but definitely made the connection to his newest realization and his 'decree'. At least he wasn't trying to keep all the fun to himself! Robyn Robyn, and everyone, I remember Durga Ji in Amherst (1974) describing her experience--it just kept coming and coming. Does anyone else remember that? My friend Sharon and I were rolling on the grass laughing. I had a great time at that festival. I also remember the song 'I can see clearly now the rain has gone' after an incredible lightening storm. That's about the time I got hooked into the cult experience. Only took about 20 years to get out of it. Love to all, eb
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:11:40 (EST)
Poster: Lg
Email:
To: Steve A
Subject: Re: Realizing Knowledge
Message:
Oh!, how many times I did hear the perfect one say that the ultimate goal in this life was to 'realize knowledge', and yet even the devoutest of initiators (people such as Ira Woods) with whom seemed to encaptured super human devotion and who could meditate until cob webs draped their stationary form, never came even close to this ellusive goal. To my knowledge, only the great one has accomplished this feat and he was only 6 at the time. I have noted that anyone who as dared mention to the divine one that they believe they are close to the ultimate goal have been severely rebuked. What does he fear?.. a challenge to his throne perhaps. Perhaps I am mistaken, maybe only 6 year olds are destined to unlock the secrets of the universe, in which case forget it people we have all missed our chance. Steve Yes, I remember M telling us 'Realize this knowledge, you must Realize this knowledge...' The thing is, he never gave proper understanding or teaching in order to realize it. Mystery! Perhaps he wanted to keep it to himself!
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 00:07:22 (EST)
Poster: at UMASS
Email: bb
To: eb
Subject: with EB (Re: Realizing Knowledge )
Message:
Hi EB, I bet you were doing that circle dancing also? The people that went to festivals were hopeful young people and we gave the whole trip the zest. But rawat dragged us into captivity and his madness and still he goes on. I feel if he wants to play god then the least I can do is let a lot of men in to the great secret of his arrival here. spread this knowledge and all that.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 16:21:24 (EST)
Poster: net-surfer
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Here is a heartfelt essay written (to Maharaji) by someone who is attempting to use the Internet to communicate his feelings to Maharaji. A Message to Maharaji
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 03:32:47 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: net-surfer
Subject: This deserves a link! (Re: A Message to Maharaji)
Message:
why not give it a link from the web-site? This is really someone's experience: he came to see what it's about understood and left How come we've been so stupid?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 07:32:45 (EST)
Poster: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: This deserves a link! (Re: A Message to Maharaji)
Message:
why not give it a link from the web-site? It's a great letter, alright. It's dated 1994, however, so it could disappear tomorrow. I snatched it and will make it an onsite page. Another aspirant escapes! This is really someone's experience: he came to see what it's about understood and left How come we've been so stupid? We were the peaceful idiots he watched file in as we came to see our 'beloved'. Makes your skin crawl, doesn't it?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 08:00:36 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: net-surfer
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
What a perceptive letter.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 08:05:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: net-surfer
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Here is a heartfelt essay written (to Maharaji) by someone who is attempting to use the Internet to communicate his feelings to Maharaji. A Message to Maharaji Hi: Very interesting letter. I think I agree with most of it although I'm not sure that all of the hysterics that people go through to receive K have long lasting effects. I think I liked the poems ever more than the letters. -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:47:51 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: net-surfer
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Dear net-surfer, He would be wise to heed your words and the feelings that are seen and and felt through them. Unfortunately I don't think he is a wise man. Thank you for letting us, who do appreciate it, share your writings. Robyn
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:17:24 (EST)
Poster: Net-surfer
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Dear net-surfer, He would be wise to heed your words and the feelings that are seen and and felt through them. Unfortunately I don't think he is a wise man. Thank you for letting us, who do appreciate it, share your writings. Robyn Just in case anyone confuses 'net-surfer' with the author of that page, I must confess 'twas I, Anon who posted the link. I chanced upon the page whilst searching for 'Maharaji' in Alta Vista, I don't know who the author is. I also posted the link a while back but no-one showed any interest whatsosoever. Funny thing this ole forum.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 15:31:40 (EST)
Poster: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Anon
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Dear Anon, Thanks for posting the URL for that article - I really liked it as well, although I liked the prose more than the poetry. By following the links backwards I found the author's name: Luc Sala. He apparently lives in the Netherlands and runs some kind of internet communication company. I also found an e-mail address for him (from 1996, so don't know if it still works): sala@euronet.nl Thanks again, Katie
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 16:11:49 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: net-surfer
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Here's another link that I like. Somehow, I don't think you'll want to keep it for long...
Check it out!

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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 18:01:08 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Brian
Subject: Re: This deserves a link! (Re: A Message to Maharaji)
Message:
I have/had this premie ex-friend. Someone else ( a non premie) who knows her once referred to her 'the dog everyone likes to kick' I know that sounds mean. but, the thing is, she always had this victim, oh poor me, oh dear , air about her. The link to this person's letter reminded me of her. He described it as being 'very yin' and retreating inside to hide from the world. Anyone else know premies like that? It's sad really, I am not writing this to make fun or her or anyone else.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:38:04 (EST)
Poster: Memphis Belle
Email:
To: net-surfer
Subject: Re: A Message to Maharaji
Message:
Here is a heartfelt essay written (to Maharaji) by someone who is attempting to use the Internet to communicate his feelings to Maharaji. A Message to Maharaji This essay is exactly the way I feel about the whole K thing. I remember when I was in the process of being an 'aspiring aspirant' M said that it should really take an aspirant about 5 life-times to receive knowledge, so how does he decide if a person is ready for knowledge? But he continues to say we only have this one lifetime. Also I met a lady who worked up at the residence for M. She once said if she couldn't be around him, then she would have to commit suicide. She said it jokingly, but was she reall? My reaction to her 'joke' was that she had completely missed his teaching, what you are looking for is inside of you. For the 20 or so yrs. that she has been 'going inside', has she really gone inside or is she addicted to M's so called love.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:26:03 (EST)
Poster: Selena
Email:
To: Everyone
Subject: the half monty
Message:
Just got around to seeing The Full Monty. It really cheered me up. I got to thinking about our recent 'shirtless' (aka 'fat') thread regarding another famous dance we have all seen. Funny how these guys in the movie didn't all have great bodies either, but I found the whole story life affirming and lots of fun. Guess the difference is, these guys weren't pretending to be god, just trying to make some money stripping. oh wait, hmm could it be?... : )
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:51:56 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Selena
Subject: Re: the half monty
Message:
Dear Selena, Yes that was a very good movie, I just saw it last night. The only thing that may have made it better was to have the audience's view at the very end but then this is a male dominated industry in a male dominated world. I don't remember that 'fat' thread but am curious, I'll see it in the archives eventually. Robyn
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 16:00:03 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email:
To: Selena
Subject: Re: the half monty
Message:
Serena: Speaking of the physical form of the Lord of the Universe, I remember hearing a premie (heterosexual male) give satsang that from his perspective the Lord had not manifested in the desired physical form. He would have preferred a female, shaped like Marilyn Monroe. He said that he just couldn't muster much excitement over a short overweight male. Well, anyway, it was funny at the time. Re: the Full Monty, I was disappointed by the end of the movie, no pun intended. All that buildup for such a short little dance number.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:06:28 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email: JKLUGE45@AOL.COM
To: Everyone
Subject: What DID you experience?
Message:
OK, I'm the new kid on the block. It's obvious that this debate(?) has been going on for some time and surely everything I can say has been said, only better..but what the hell, let me try. I haven't seen Maharaji in about 12 years. I'm not a vegetarian, I don't send any money and I rarely meditate. There also isn't a day when I don't experience what he showed me. It is such an essential part of who I am that I can not imagine living without it. If the news this evening carried a story of him being arrested for some horrible crime (fraud, murder,moppery, etc) it would not affect the experience I have. It is beyond Maharaji. Do you adore the person who taught you mathematics? Would it invalidate math if that person did something of which you disapproved? What were the feelings that drew you to him in the first place? What did you experience that made you stay so long?
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:22:03 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
OK, I'm the new kid on the block. It's obvious that this debate(?) has been going on for some time and surely everything I can say has been said, only better..but what the hell, let me try. I haven't seen Maharaji in about 12 years. I'm not a vegetarian, I don't send any money and I rarely meditate. There also isn't a day when I don't experience what he showed me. It is such an essential part of who I am that I can not imagine living without it. If the news this evening carried a story of him being arrested for some horrible crime (fraud, murder,moppery, etc) it would not affect the experience I have. It is beyond Maharaji. Do you adore the person who taught you mathematics? Would it invalidate math if that person did something of which you disapproved? What were the feelings that drew you to him in the first place? What did you experience that made you stay so long? John, I could answer all your questions and indeed have done jsut that a number of times when premies -- and ex's, and plain old regular folk -- have asked. But, wheer does that leave us? I thought you were going to try to answer mine first. I remind you: you said anyone who ever thought GMJ was God 'was nuts.' Yet, as you clearly see from those few quotes (and there are so many others as you likely know), GMJ was the one who told us that. Really, John, the onus is on you to reconcile those comments. See, I DID think he was God and no, it wasn't common knowledge in my community anyways that I was nuts to think that. So, what should we do? You really want some co-operation? No problem. But first, John, I think you really owe an explanation.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 14:53:03 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, my answer is that I didn't think he was telling me he is God. I did not interpret any of his statements as meaning that. Maybe that makes me the one who was nuts! All I can speak from is my own experience and I was never even in an Ashram, although I sure spent a lot of time there. Jim, I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just that I love what I got from him.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:09:31 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Just butting in here. Well, I received K on this site. It was pretty cool and I enjoy it, but I don't have a shrine of Shri David (sorry about that, David!) and I also don't go to England to kiss his feet or guard his cheese. I maintain that one does not have to have the grace of Maharaji to have this experience of Knowledge. I do think that one does have to go through the proper channels to get into the devotion, if that is what one is truely seeking. It seems to me that this is really what EV is about. Otherwise one would not buy videos or travel to programs, one would just meditate, verdad?
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:13:42 (EST)
Poster: John K.
Email: kreilkamp@mindspring.com
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Mr. Kluge: Actually, I experienced an incredible spiritual force, or power, within me long before I ever rec'd K or heard of the guru. So, I cannot say that he 'revealed' 'God' to me. One of the problems I have in trying to figure out exactly what he did for me is that I was totally immersed in the premie community, and so for me the premie world was really all that I remember. In asking what did I experience, all I can really remember is the premie world. Living with people in crowded houses, having no money, no sex, our lives revolved around doing service, going to satsang, meditating, going to festivals. It was simply a group high or group experience. Some of it was wonderful, some of it was hell. What DID the guru have to do with that? Well, at the time, we attributed everything to him. But of course, it was not the guru who was doing anything, it was simply life unfolding. The guru did not come and give me personal direction. He did not show me how to meditate. They are not HIS techniques. He gave me no personal attention. Which is why I don't miss him at all. There is nothing for me to miss. If he had become my friend, then maybe it would be different, but he never did become my friend. Anyway, I am curious as to what you mean when you say every day you experience what he showed you. I assume you mean - your breath... the life force...? I think my experience of that comes from the years of effort I put in to meditate. At least that's how I understand it. I don't see what the guru had to do with that effort I made. I was the one who had to make the sacrifices necessary to make that effort. You must believe that he actually did something inside of you when you rec'd Knowledge? Or I guess my question is what is it that you believe he did?
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 15:20:18 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, my answer is that I didn't think he was telling me he is God. I did not interpret any of his statements as meaning that. Maybe that makes me the one who was nuts! All I can speak from is my own experience and I was never even in an Ashram, although I sure spent a lot of time there. Jim, I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, just that I love what I got from him. John, We can have a long discussion about what Knowledge is nad is not. I'm not completely decided yet but I'm pretty sure that it's not at all what we thought it was. But, first, how can I take you seriously when you say that he wasn't telling you (or me) he was God? Do you need the quotes again? Please, be fair. The man says he's God about as blatantly as the language allows. Will you admit that or not? (If you don't I'll send you a copy of 'Life of Brian' -g)
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 19:53:57 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email: jkluge45@aol.com
To: VP
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Just butting in here. Well, I received K on this site. It was pretty cool and I enjoy it, but I don't have a shrine of Shri David (sorry about that, David!) and I also don't go to England to kiss his feet or guard his cheese. I maintain that one does not have to have the grace of Maharaji to have this experience of Knowledge. I do think that one does have to go through the proper channels to get into the devotion, if that is what one is truely seeking. It seems to me that this is really what EV is about. Otherwise one would not buy videos or travel to programs, one would just meditate, verdad? I agree that whatever works for you is your answer. Some people like shrines (ex;;crucifix), some don't. Whatever your way, if you feel that peace that gives incredible strength and faith in your inate goodness and/or love, you are there and you don't need me or Maharaji. That is verdad.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:02:10 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
I loved 'Life of Brian'!!!! I think a lot of churches did not. As for the other, I never heard him say 'I am God, in a physical manifestation standing before you.' A small thing, maybe, but my perception.. Funny, but I lived 2 blocks from DLM in Denver, but had to move to Houston to meet him. All things in their own time.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:08:25 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
John: You apparently require that a very specific line in the sand be crossed before you yell 'foul.' He has to say he's God while wearing a yellow ascot at 3:00 in the afternoon with the sun shining on a robust Spring day. Me, I'm not so picky. I just have to catch him in an out and out lie. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:13:57 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email: jkluge45@aol.com
To: John K.
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Mr. Kluge: Actually, I experienced an incredible spiritual force, or power, within me long before I ever rec'd K or heard of the guru. So, I cannot say that he 'revealed' 'God' to me. One of the problems I have in trying to figure out exactly what he did for me is that I was totally immersed in the premie community, and so for me the premie world was really all that I remember. In asking what did I experience, all I can really remember is the premie world. Living with people in crowded houses, having no money, no sex, our lives revolved around doing service, going to satsang, meditating, going to festivals. It was simply a group high or group experience. Some of it was wonderful, some of it was hell. What DID the guru have to do with that? Well, at the time, we attributed everything to him. But of course, it was not the guru who was doing anything, it was simply life unfolding. The guru did not come and give me personal direction. He did not show me how to meditate. They are not HIS techniques. He gave me no personal attention. Which is why I don't miss him at all. There is nothing for me to miss. If he had become my friend, then maybe it would be different, but he never did become my friend. Anyway, I am curious as to what you mean when you say every day you experience what he showed you. I assume you mean - your breath... the life force...? I think my experience of that comes from the years of effort I put in to meditate. At least that's how I understand it. I don't see what the guru had to do with that effort I made. I was the one who had to make the sacrifices necessary to make that effort. You must believe that he actually did something inside of you when you rec'd Knowledge? Or I guess my question is what is it that you believe he did? First of all, Ican't figure out how to expand this damn answe block! I don't mean to sound like a sufi story teller, I just run out of room!! I'm trying to say, and failing miserably, that when I saw or heard GMJ, it was on several levels. What he said,his jokes,etc were one. The other was just him and me, no words, no creed, just a demonstration taht while we live in a physical world, it is not the only one available.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:22:54 (EST)
Poster: Reality Check
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Just butting in here. Well, I received K on this site. It was pretty cool and I enjoy it, but I don't have a shrine of Shri David (sorry about that, David!) and I also don't go to England to kiss his feet or guard his cheese. I maintain that one does not have to have the grace of Maharaji to have this experience of Knowledge. I do think that one does have to go through the proper channels to get into the devotion, if that is what one is truely seeking. It seems to me that this is really what EV is about. Otherwise one would not buy videos or travel to programs, one would just meditate, verdad? Senor VP Please don't call whatever you took from the ex-premie.org site as Knowledge. Of course you can call it anything you want, and you might argue that it's the same Knowledge as I have, but it ain't. If it were that easy to get, then the Internet could offer true peace through self-knowledge, and we both know that would be a rather lofty goal for this medium. (I don't know, maybe that's a hope for the many who spend hours surfing the net.) If you think Knowledge is no big deal anyway, maybe a little like TM but with a slightly different flavour, then in your mind you might be able to say with conviction that you got the real goods. But real knowledge of self is a very, very big deal. It has altered men's lives. Unfortunately, if you've never experienced the real thing you've got nothing to compare it to. Ah well, ignorance is bliss.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:33:01 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, what if Maharaji represents in some way (some way that no one has been able to explain to you because it's not easy to conceptualize contrary to the theory of logic which you are clearly a true devotee of) the energy that sustains life? Why is it that you never leave that possibility on the table for long. I guess it's because if it were so, you'd have to really hope God is merciful.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:42:52 (EST)
Poster: David Van Edam
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Reality Check
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
What the hell are you on about Mr Reality Check? Your whole post is implying something but saying nothing. The knowledge of self is not just available to a few middle-aged bores who call themselves premies. (CD & Mili excluded as you're not boring) Oh, you are implying that Maharaji is the only one who can give knowledge of self. Then why not SAY that? But you're wrong, brother. Since everybody IS themself, they can all easilly access their self. What's up, does is sound too easy, too available for the great unwashed, seething masses of ordinary people? Anyone who meditates on the meditation techniques and gets peace of mind, only has themselves to give the credit to. That's an old trick, laying all the credit on a guru. We're past that one now. Knowledge of self is achieved by oneself by meditation by oneself. Nobody else comes into it.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 20:59:14 (EST)
Poster: John Kluge
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Scott, I just have a problem understanding why people are so pissed off that GMJ isn't God. Even Jesus never made that claim. I've heard people say they were God, but they were wrapped pretty tight and being watched carefully. Do you think God would let someone chuck a pie in his face? Wasn't there something besides that belief that made you hang? Keep that, screw the rest.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EST)
Poster: Reality Check
Email:
To: David Van Edam
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
What the hell are you on about Mr Reality Check? Your whole post is implying something but saying nothing. The knowledge of self is not just available to a few middle-aged bores who call themselves premies. (CD & Mili excluded as you're not boring) Oh, you are implying that Maharaji is the only one who can give knowledge of self. Then why not SAY that? But you're wrong, brother. Since everybody IS themself, they can all easilly access their self. What's up, does is sound too easy, too available for the great unwashed, seething masses of ordinary people? Anyone who meditates on the meditation techniques and gets peace of mind, only has themselves to give the credit to. That's an old trick, laying all the credit on a guru. We're past that one now. Knowledge of self is achieved by oneself by meditation by oneself. Nobody else comes into it. Believe that if it makes you feel good David. One thing though... it really, REALLY feels good when you can thank something higher than your half realized self for the wonderful experience you are experiencing. It kinda puts everything into perspective.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:30:24 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Mr. Kluge doesn't get it (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Scott, I just have a problem understanding why people are so pissed off that GMJ isn't God. Even Jesus never made that claim. I've heard people say they were God, but they were wrapped pretty tight and being watched carefully. Do you think God would let someone chuck a pie in his face? Wasn't there something besides that belief that made you hang? Keep that, screw the rest. 1) People aren't pissed off that M isn't God, John. They're pissed off that he claimed to be. They're pissed off that they believed him. They're pissed off that they wasted years of their lives on that basis. They're pissed off that M is too chicken to deal with his own past. 2)If you can't speak English, I can't talk with you. In the quotes Maharaji says he is 'the highest manifestation of God', that he knows all and is 'Brahma', 'Vishnu' and 'Shiva' (creator, operator and destroyer). He says that he is 'the supremest lord in person' and 'the saviour of humanity.' So what's your problem? If it's too difficult for you to be honest here, please get lost. Maharaji could not have said it clearer, could he? You, on the other hand, don't want to admit the obvious and that's about as clear as need be too, isn't it? Or how about when M said he 'knows all'? Do you think he was possibly saying he knows all? Come on, John, don't dissemble.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:38:25 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: NV poses a question (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Jim, what if Maharaji represents in some way (some way that no one has been able to explain to you because it's not easy to conceptualize contrary to the theory of logic which you are clearly a true devotee of) the energy that sustains life? Why is it that you never leave that possibility on the table for long. I guess it's because if it were so, you'd have to really hope God is merciful. NV, Last time I looked you were supposedly mulling over those quotes. Maharaji's not what you want to make him. He's not even what HE wants to make himself. He is, like all of us, a function of what he's done in his existence. One thing he's done is said a lot of stuff that you, apparently, can't honestly deal with. Fine. So now you've got some questions of your own. Should I answer them? Without your answers first? No, NV, that wouldn't be right, would it? See, I've done it that way. I've gotten into discussion with premies, cornered them and then watched them do anything, anything at all but admit the obvious. Sometimes, like you're doing here, they try to change the subject. Sometimes I've let them. But I'm not going to do it anymore. Right here, I promise to answer any question you've got honestly and fully but only when I feel that you're doing the same. Actually, I'd love to answer your question. Believe me, it's nothing new. But, that would be giving you the wrong sign and I'd hate to help you develop a bad habit of rudeness and evasion. So, if you want me to play, you gotta play fair. Now, what about those quotes?
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:39:17 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, what if Maharaji represents in some way (some way that no one has been able to explain to you because it's not easy to conceptualize contrary to the theory of logic which you are clearly a true devotee of) the energy that sustains life? Why is it that you never leave that possibility on the table for long. I guess it's because if it were so, you'd have to really hope God is merciful. Why would he have to hope God is merciful? Because God would hit him for disbelieving?
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email: rtaraday@hotmail.com
To: Reality Check
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Just butting in here. Well, I received K on this site. It was pretty cool and I enjoy it, but I don't have a shrine of Shri David (sorry about that, David!) and I also don't go to England to kiss his feet or guard his cheese. I maintain that one does not have to have the grace of Maharaji to have this experience of Knowledge. I do think that one does have to go through the proper channels to get into the devotion, if that is what one is truely seeking. It seems to me that this is really what EV is about. Otherwise one would not buy videos or travel to programs, one would just meditate, verdad? Senor VP Please don't call whatever you took from the ex-premie.org site as Knowledge. Of course you can call it anything you want, and you might argue that it's the same Knowledge as I have, but it ain't. If it were that easy to get, then the Internet could offer true peace through self-knowledge, and we both know that would be a rather lofty goal for this medium. (I don't know, maybe that's a hope for the many who spend hours surfing the net.) If you think Knowledge is no big deal anyway, maybe a little like TM but with a slightly different flavour, then in your mind you might be able to say with conviction that you got the real goods. But real knowledge of self is a very, very big deal. It has altered men's lives. Unfortunately, if you've never experienced the real thing you've got nothing to compare it to. Ah well, ignorance is bliss. Don't even bother yourself with this tripe, VP. You've got everything that anyone else has.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:36:16 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Scott, I just have a problem understanding why people are so pissed off that GMJ isn't God. Even Jesus never made that claim. I've heard people say they were God, but they were wrapped pretty tight and being watched carefully. Do you think God would let someone chuck a pie in his face? Wasn't there something besides that belief that made you hang? Keep that, screw the rest. John: Fine. If everyone had your (apparent) attitude there would be no GMJ. He'd have to get a job like the rest of us. But as far as I can tell he refers to himself as HIMSELF if you know what I mean. Whether I'm pissed at him for being God or not being God is beside the point. I would love for him to be merely an honest man. That would be great. He could blame it all on his mother, or his brothers, or whoever. I won't hold a grudge. The issue is that he says he is HIMSELF, gets paid for it, and then sort of forgets he said it... You seem to be saying that not only does this not bother you, but that he is really not saying he is God when he says he is, or that he says he is but it's a sort of sly wink between the two of you that he REALLY means something else. But, I guess you have 'special' knowledge so that explains how he can say one thing, mean something else, and have it correctly interpreted as a third meaning. It's all just this pesky limitation of human speech I guess. But where I come from talk like that is not only a lie, it's a perversion. It's the kind of response you'd get from a Ted Bundy. No relationship between what I say and what I do, and besides it's all YOUR fault! Would that he were merely a liar, behind brown eyes. John, I don't think you really care. You seem to feel that no one should car, that amorality is our salvation. You're his perfect apologist. You've set your bar so low that you simply have no standards at all. Fine. I guess that would be the perfect solution for everyone. While we're at it why not get rid of all those ugly trees that cover the mountains and hide the beautiful geology of nature under a shroud of green life? It would be so simple. Mars is so much more beautiful than Earth. What does it matter. It's all natural right? What, me worry? -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:43:16 (EST)
Poster: David van Edam
Email: djulian@cix.compulink.co.uk
To: Reality Check
Subject: So you're a FULL realised self? (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Even the language you're using doesn't make sense. How on earth can you half realise yourself? Which half would it be? Top half, bottom half, left half or right? You're implying that you have realised all of yourself. Sorry but I don't believe you. Because if you'd ever had any experience of the 'self' that we're talking about then you'd know that it has no dimensions like half, quarter or full but in fact is without any bounderies. In other words, there's always further to go. Nobody who has had an experience such as this would say they were fully realised or that they were more or less realised than anyone else. Right now will you please be a bit more specific and say exactly how Maharaji has given you this total realisation of yourself. Without that, you're just playing with words.
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 22:55:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: Reality Check
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: Regarding: Please don't call whatever you took from the ex-premie.org site as Knowledge. Of course you can call it anything you want, and you might argue that it's the same Knowledge as I have, but it ain't. Ah, the arrogance of premiedom. We are such special people to have such special Knowledge. Please don't call the bait you swallowed (your very own little take-a-free-ride ticket) special. It's the same old bait used to entice untold followers of untold Gurus for untold generations. Knowledge appears to have been something incorporated into the human physiognomy. Perhaps it evolved. Perhaps it was designed. Jim and I have a debate about that. But special it's not, at least not in the sense that it belongs to you and a few other people who were 'clever' enough to get worked into a lather over a decidedly ordinary person. We might actually rationalize this thing if it were demystified and taken off it's pedestal. David Lane has conducted some double blind studies indicating that the experience of knowledge is something everyone is capable of, no matter who reveals it. I wonder why that might be? But anyway, your pedestal is squat. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:31:08 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Technical difficulties (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
John: Regarding: First of all, Ican't figure out how to expand this damn answe block! I don't mean to sound like a sufi story teller, I just run out of room!! Try typing the message you want to send in a word processor or wordpad or something. Some kind of text editor. Then paste it into the text box. The text box is not limited to the dimensions you can see. It's more like a big bag. Just dump the edited text in there, decide if you want to include the text from the message you're responding to, and post it. As everyone knows, I can't see those little teentsy letters in the text box anyway, so I don't usually even bother to type there. -Scott
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:57:16 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Reality Check
Subject: Chill out, reality check:) (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Hey, RC! I have fully confessed in my first post above to not having the devotional aspect that you have, so chill out. I know that this part of the trip is missing for me, but I am fully aware of this. I am glad to not have devotion to a guru tied to the realization of myself! (Which I will add, is more than meditation upon the light, music, word and nectar- IMHO.) I will say that I do believe in God and I thank a higher power on many occasions. Not just for the opportunity to meditate, but for all of the wonders in life. In addition to this, if knowledge has changed many lives for the better, that is great. I guess I was just lucky that mine didn't need that much changing. Cheers!
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Date: Mon, Mar 30, 1998 at 23:59:39 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: John Kluge
Subject: Levels, worlds, whatever (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
John: RE: The other was just him and me, no words, no creed, just a demonstration taht while we live in a physical world, it is not the only one available. I won't bicker about whether or not the physical world is the only one. Unlike some at this site I don't think there is such a thing as a physical world. Therefore, we live in THIS world, and not another one. But in any world one has to be held to account for what one says and does. Perhaps the sanctions are different, but there must be SOME standards? I was always taught that the standards in the spiritual world were higher, not lower. I arrived at his site in an effort to resolve some of the conflicted feelings I had about MJ. My impression was that Knowledge and DLM had been good for me, and if anything I was sort of resentful that it had all dropped below the radar screen. Unlike you, it did not take me long to figure out that I had to take sides. I read Bobby's interview and it made sense in terms of what I already knew about the mission and MJ, but also about what I knew concerning cults. I used to think he had some sort of agenda, and that he was involved in the power struggle and had either sided with Mata Ji, or was out for himself. I saw none of that in the interview. He did not sound like a disgruntled employee. He sounded like someone who had awakened. The kind of things you say about MJ remind me of an 'imaginary' playmate I had as a kid. His name was 'Bander.' There were certain things I was not supposed to think, say, or feel in 'this' world, but I could say, think or feel them with Bander. He was completely non-judgmental. The thing is, this sort of relationship is not appropriate for a mentor, or a guru. Why? Because it involves others as well as yourself, and because it involves life decisions and chances. It's great to have a non-judgmental friend but if he (or she) never tells you to do your homework maybe he is no more than a child either? -Scott
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:00:37 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Reality check
Subject: Re: Chill out, reality check:)P.S. (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
P.S. I would argue that you can't know what I got cause you aren't in my body. :)
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:22:42 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Rick
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Rick, 'You've got everything that anyone else has' Yeah! I do. Except for the devotion to the Guru which is, for some, the 'real goods'. In that case, he's right, I didn't get it. OK by me. I think I touch a certain nerve with some on here because I didn't go through the proper channels. I cheated. It's easier to rationalize this as my 'not getting the real thing' than it is to imagine the possibility that I could learn the techniques somewhere other than a K session. VP
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 00:32:28 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Scott, 'the experience of knowledge is something everyone is capable of, no matter who reveals it.' Well said. In the 70's quite a lot of different people helped MJ reveal the techniques, didn't they? Who says Shri David wouldn't have qualified? I think he's a hell of a Mahatma!! VP
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 13:08:58 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, what if Maharaji represents in some way (some way that no one has been able to explain to you because it's not easy to conceptualize contrary to the theory of logic which you are clearly a true devotee of) the energy that sustains life? Why is it that you never leave that possibility on the table for long. I guess it's because if it were so, you'd have to really hope God is merciful. Even by Maharaji's ever-changing theories, we ALL are supposed to 'represent in some way...the energy that sustains life.' I mean, if we didn't 'represent' such energy we wouldn't be alive, now would we? Now, if you are saying Maharaji is some kind of 'special' representation of the energy, I can accept your 'what if' because ANYTHING is possible, bounded only by the extent of one's imagination. So, I guess I can admit it's possible, but then you would have to also admit that it's possible that Maharaji is a fraud and just playing the perfect master game to finance his lavish lifestyle. Possible? Can you admit that? If you can't, I see that as evidence of programming and an inability to look at Maharaji objectively. I know what that's like, having lived that way for more than a decade of my life. But I don't believe M is any 'special' representation, because I have seen zero evidence that that is true, other than the fact that a bunch of people say they believe it, and also that I believed it, or wanted to believe it, at one time too.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:27:59 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: NV poses a question (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
NV, Last time I looked you were supposedly mulling over those quotes. Maharaji's not what you want to make him. He's not even what HE wants to make himself. He is, like all of us, a function of what he's done in his existence. One thing he's done is said a lot of stuff that you, apparently, can't honestly deal with. Fine. So now you've got some questions of your own. Should I answer them? Without your answers first? No, NV, that wouldn't be right, would it? See, I've done it that way. I've gotten into discussion with premies, cornered them and then watched them do anything, anything at all but admit the obvious. Sometimes, like you're doing here, they try to change the subject. Sometimes I've let them. But I'm not going to do it anymore. Right here, I promise to answer any question you've got honestly and fully but only when I feel that you're doing the same. Actually, I'd love to answer your question. Believe me, it's nothing new. But, that would be giving you the wrong sign and I'd hate to help you develop a bad habit of rudeness and evasion. So, if you want me to play, you gotta play fair. Now, what about those quotes? Jim, I don't think I was the one you gave the homework to but I'll consider your request. My response to you comes in the form of the question I posed to you in my previous post, that being, and I'll quote myself, '… what if Maharaji [does in fact] represents in some way the energy that sustains life'. My point being that if this is so, he never mislead anyone because what he said about his juxtaposition with the infinite would have been accurate. Your frustration seems to be that an explanation of this juxtaposition re; how, why, and when doesn't readily come from the people who make the assertion, including him. So YOU say 'If the association with the infinite can't be explained, it doesn't exist and he therefore is a fraud'. That way of thinking is of course a basic rule of logical analysis, which is the foundation of Jim Heller's selective reality. And, given that based on YOUR subjective experience while practising Knowledge that you have written it off as having no value, you have closed the door to the only means offered besides logic to investigate the relevance of this assertion. So I do appreciate where you are coming from (a fact that I know is bound to warm the cockles of your heart). Well Jim, nobody has been able to explain it to-date, and neither can I. It doesn't mean anyone is hedging, hiding, or apologising. Maybe it just means we're not very articulate. That is a deficiency I'm willing to accept. But one thing I'll never accept is that the Knowledge he's shown me is not real.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:39:14 (EST)
Poster: RC
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: Regarding: Please don't call whatever you took from the ex-premie.org site as Knowledge. Of course you can call it anything you want, and you might argue that it's the same Knowledge as I have, but it ain't. Ah, the arrogance of premiedom. We are such special people to have such special Knowledge. Please don't call the bait you swallowed (your very own little take-a-free-ride ticket) special. It's the same old bait used to entice untold followers of untold Gurus for untold generations. Knowledge appears to have been something incorporated into the human physiognomy. Perhaps it evolved. Perhaps it was designed. Jim and I have a debate about that. But special it's not, at least not in the sense that it belongs to you and a few other people who were 'clever' enough to get worked into a lather over a decidedly ordinary person. We might actually rationalize this thing if it were demystified and taken off it's pedestal. David Lane has conducted some double blind studies indicating that the experience of knowledge is something everyone is capable of, no matter who reveals it. I wonder why that might be? But anyway, your pedestal is squat. -Scott Ah the arrogance of an almost omniscient intellect. You have the capability to almost understand what I'm talking about. Listen Scotty, the ability to play football is inherent in everyone on the varsity team, right? So why do they need a coach? By the way, condecension doesn't become you.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:42:02 (EST)
Poster: RC
Email:
To: VP
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Scott, 'the experience of knowledge is something everyone is capable of, no matter who reveals it.' Well said. In the 70's quite a lot of different people helped MJ reveal the techniques, didn't they? Who says Shri David wouldn't have qualified? I think he's a hell of a Mahatma!! VP You know VP, you're as nice guy. But you really don't know what you're talking about. And I mean no disrespect.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 20:53:50 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Jim, what if Maharaji represents in some way (some way that no one has been able to explain to you because it's not easy to conceptualize contrary to the theory of logic which you are clearly a true devotee of) the energy that sustains life? Why is it that you never leave that possibility on the table for long. I guess it's because if it were so, you'd have to really hope God is merciful. Even by Maharaji's ever-changing theories, we ALL are supposed to 'represent in some way...the energy that sustains life.' I mean, if we didn't 'represent' such energy we wouldn't be alive, now would we? Now, if you are saying Maharaji is some kind of 'special' representation of the energy, I can accept your 'what if' because ANYTHING is possible, bounded only by the extent of one's imagination. So, I guess I can admit it's possible, but then you would have to also admit that it's possible that Maharaji is a fraud and just playing the perfect master game to finance his lavish lifestyle. Possible? Can you admit that? If you can't, I see that as evidence of programming and an inability to look at Maharaji objectively. I know what that's like, having lived that way for more than a decade of my life. But I don't believe M is any 'special' representation, because I have seen zero evidence that that is true, other than the fact that a bunch of people say they believe it, and also that I believed it, or wanted to believe it, at one time too. JW that's kind of a back handed admission of openess. If you truly are open to the possibility that he is special, but you have seen no evidence to support that possibility, then be open to the possibililty that others have. Whoa boy, now that would be a hard one for the little ego to deal with, wouldn't it? And in answer to your question, yes I'm open to him being a fraud. I however have never seen the life he leads create dissonance with the truth he showed me.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:15:46 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: NV poses a question (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
NV, Last time I looked you were supposedly mulling over those quotes. Maharaji's not what you want to make him. He's not even what HE wants to make himself. He is, like all of us, a function of what he's done in his existence. One thing he's done is said a lot of stuff that you, apparently, can't honestly deal with. Fine. So now you've got some questions of your own. Should I answer them? Without your answers first? No, NV, that wouldn't be right, would it? See, I've done it that way. I've gotten into discussion with premies, cornered them and then watched them do anything, anything at all but admit the obvious. Sometimes, like you're doing here, they try to change the subject. Sometimes I've let them. But I'm not going to do it anymore. Right here, I promise to answer any question you've got honestly and fully but only when I feel that you're doing the same. Actually, I'd love to answer your question. Believe me, it's nothing new. But, that would be giving you the wrong sign and I'd hate to help you develop a bad habit of rudeness and evasion. So, if you want me to play, you gotta play fair. Now, what about those quotes? Jim, I don't think I was the one you gave the homework to but I'll consider your request. My response to you comes in the form of the question I posed to you in my previous post, that being, and I'll quote myself, '… what if Maharaji [does in fact] represents in some way the energy that sustains life'. My point being that if this is so, he never mislead anyone because what he said about his juxtaposition with the infinite would have been accurate. Your frustration seems to be that an explanation of this juxtaposition re; how, why, and when doesn't readily come from the people who make the assertion, including him. So YOU say 'If the association with the infinite can't be explained, it doesn't exist and he therefore is a fraud'. That way of thinking is of course a basic rule of logical analysis, which is the foundation of Jim Heller's selective reality. And, given that based on YOUR subjective experience while practising Knowledge that you have written it off as having no value, you have closed the door to the only means offered besides logic to investigate the relevance of this assertion. So I do appreciate where you are coming from (a fact that I know is bound to warm the cockles of your heart). Well Jim, nobody has been able to explain it to-date, and neither can I. It doesn't mean anyone is hedging, hiding, or apologising. Maybe it just means we're not very articulate. That is a deficiency I'm willing to accept. But one thing I'll never accept is that the Knowledge he's shown me is not real. NV, You want me to entertain the notion that Maharaji is simply a phenomena beyond the realm of logic. Fine, where you going to draw the line around Mr. Black Hole? If Maharaji borrows 10 bucks from me should I consider that a loan? Do I have a right to ask for it back? Should I settle for some special excuse from him like.... no excuse at all? Is there NO logic to Mr. M? And on and on. Okay, NY, fencing on the edge of reason cuts both ways. Your turn: How do YOU know that 'Knowledge is real'? First of all, what does 'real' mean anyway? Secondly, if you're so absolutely open-minded, willing to look beyond logic and probably every other mark and measure of human experience, why arbitrarily draw the line on whatever part of your consciousness you use to register 'real' with Knowledge? In other words, how do you know you're not fooling yourself? And that's not even getting into any of the questions of how one really ties Maharaji into all this. But, really, how can you safely reject the possibility that you are simply participating in your own delusion?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:23:28 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: NV
Subject: For clarity (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Taken from below: > Jim said: NV, Last time I looked you were supposedly mulling over those quotes. Maharaji's not what you want to make him. He's not even what HE wants to make himself. He is, like all of us, a function of what he's done in his existence. One thing he's done is said a lot of stuff that you, apparently, can't honestly deal with. Fine. So now you've got some questions of your own. Should I answer them? Without your answers first? No, NV, that wouldn't be right, would it? See, I've done it that way. I've gotten into discussion with premies, cornered them and then watched them do anything, anything at all but admit the obvious. Sometimes, like you're doing here, they try to change the subject. Sometimes I've let them. But I'm not going to do it anymore. Right here, I promise to answer any question you've got honestly and fully but only when I feel that you're doing the same. Actually, I'd love to answer your question. Believe me, it's nothing new. But, that would be giving you the wrong sign and I'd hate to help you develop a bad habit of rudeness and evasion. So, if you want me to play, you gotta play fair. Now, what about those quotes? >> My response: Jim, I don't think I was the one you gave the homework to but I'll consider your request. My response to you comes in the form of the question I posed to you in my previous post, that being, and I'll quote myself, '… what if Maharaji [does in fact] represents in some way the energy that sustains life'. My point being that if this is so, he never mislead anyone because what he said about his juxtaposition with the infinite would have been accurate. Your frustration seems to be that an explanation of this juxtaposition re; how, why, and when doesn't readily come from the people who make the assertion, including him. So YOU say 'If the association with the infinite can't be explained, it doesn't exist and he therefore is a fraud'. That way of thinking is of course a basic rule of logical analysis, which is the foundation of Jim Heller's selective reality. And, given that based on YOUR subjective experience while practising Knowledge that you have written it off as having no value, you have closed the door to the only means offered besides logic to investigate the relevance of this assertion. So I do appreciate where you are coming from (a fact that I know is bound to warm the cockles of your heart). Well Jim, nobody has been able to explain it to-date, and neither can I. It doesn't mean anyone is hedging, hiding, or apologising. Maybe it just means we're not very articulate. That is a deficiency I'm willing to accept. But one thing I'll never accept is that the Knowledge he's shown me is not real.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:29:55 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Taken from below: NV, Last time I looked you were supposedly mulling over those quotes. Maharaji's not what you want to make him. He's not even what HE wants to make himself. He is, like all of us, a function of what he's done in his existence. One thing he's done is said a lot of stuff that you, apparently, can't honestly deal with. Fine. So now you've got some questions of your own. Should I answer them? Without your answers first? No, NV, that wouldn't be right, would it? See, I've done it that way. I've gotten into discussion with premies, cornered them and then watched them do anything, anything at all but admit the obvious. Sometimes, like you're doing here, they try to change the subject. Sometimes I've let them. But I'm not going to do it anymore. Right here, I promise to answer any question you've got honestly and fully but only when I feel that you're doing the same. Actually, I'd love to answer your question. Believe me, it's nothing new. But, that would be giving you the wrong sign and I'd hate to help you develop a bad habit of rudeness and evasion. So, if you want me to play, you gotta play fair. Now, what about those quotes? Jim, I don't think I was the one you gave the homework to but I'll consider your request. My response to you comes in the form of the question I posed to you in my previous post, that being, and I'll quote myself, '… what if Maharaji [does in fact] represents in some way the energy that sustains life'. My point being that if this is so, he never mislead anyone because what he said about his juxtaposition with the infinite would have been accurate. Your frustration seems to be that an explanation of this juxtaposition re; how, why, and when doesn't readily come from the people who make the assertion, including him. So YOU say 'If the association with the infinite can't be explained, it doesn't exist and he therefore is a fraud'. That way of thinking is of course a basic rule of logical analysis, which is the foundation of Jim Heller's selective reality. And, given that based on YOUR subjective experience while practising Knowledge that you have written it off as having no value, you have closed the door to the only means offered besides logic to investigate the relevance of this assertion. So I do appreciate where you are coming from (a fact that I know is bound to warm the cockles of your heart). Well Jim, nobody has been able to explain it to-date, and neither can I. It doesn't mean anyone is hedging, hiding, or apologising. Maybe it just means we're not very articulate. That is a deficiency I'm willing to accept. But one thing I'll never accept is that the Knowledge he's shown me is not real. NV, First, here's my inital answer to your post, which answer was also origianlly posted below the fold: You want me to entertain the notion that Maharaji is simply a phenomena beyond the realm of logic. Fine, where you going to draw the line around Mr. Black Hole? If Maharaji borrows 10 bucks from me should I consider that a loan? Do I have a right to ask for it back? Should I settle for some special excuse from him like.... no excuse at all? Is there NO logic to Mr. M? And on and on. Okay, NY, fencing on the edge of reason cuts both ways. Your turn: How do YOU know that 'Knowledge is real'? First of all, what does 'real' mean anyway? Secondly, if you're so absolutely open-minded, willing to look beyond logic and probably every other mark and measure of human experience, why arbitrarily draw the line on whatever part of your consciousness you use to register 'real' with Knowledge? In other words, how do you know you're not fooling yourself? And that's not even getting into any of the questions of how one really ties Maharaji into all this. But, really, how can you safely reject the possibility that you are simply participating in your own delusion? Now, let me add: NV, you still ignore the quotes. If all you ahve to say about them is that you, too, can't really understand, fine. That's cool. That's honest. No problem there. The problem then soon arises when the premies try to explain why they themselves won't turn to Maharaji for clarification. What, you scared of him or something? Maharaji, at various times, has urged his suckers to rely on his 'open door' policy. Write him letters, ask him questions, whatever. He's there for you. What a charade. It is absolutely impossible, as you must well know, to get him to talk about anything. Did you read where I once had a drink with Raja Ji whol told me that Maharaji wouldn't even talk straight with him? It's true. Just ask him. (joke!) No, you can offer all the fancy explanations you want about Maharaji somehow being painted in colours too rich for my 'selective reality.' How far backwards do you bend before you acknowledge some pretty basic things. You, too, NV function on logic. Don't pretend otherwise.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: NV poses a question (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Jim, I'm not sure what you're alluding to with your questions in the first paragraph of your response. Looks like your throwing up a smoke screen. How about an explanation. Your question about how I know my experience is real: I don't, so therefore I continually have to get in touch wit hoit again to confirm whether its validity. So far it always tests positive in the reality department. Jim, you are evading the point I made and all it's implications with your smoke-screen: What if Maharaji is not lying about his juxtaposition with the infinite, and that logic is really not able to adequately test such a hypothesis. Where does that leave you?
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 21:49:25 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
I don't ask questions about things that don't perplex me. The questions you have are not MY questions, they're yours. All the questions that have perplexed me about M have been answered through practising Knowledge. You can't find the same answers to those questions because you have written Knowledge off. Fine. You'll never know for sure what I'm talking about. Yes I value logic.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 22:17:13 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
I don't ask questions about things that don't perplex me. The questions you have are not MY questions, they're yours. All the questions that have perplexed me about M have been answered through practising Knowledge. You can't find the same answers to those questions because you have written Knowledge off. Fine. You'll never know for sure what I'm talking about. Yes I value logic. You're just another coward, NV, and a dishonest one at that. You say you don't care what Maharaji has to say for himself and I say you're a liar.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 22:19:10 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, I posted a little early (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
I don't ask questions about things that don't perplex me. The questions you have are not MY questions, they're yours. All the questions that have perplexed me about M have been answered through practising Knowledge. You can't find the same answers to those questions because you have written Knowledge off. Fine. You'll never know for sure what I'm talking about. Yes I value logic. You're just another coward, NV, and a dishonest one at that. You say you don't care what Maharaji has to say for himself and I say you're a liar. I meant to add that I accuse you of lying about not caring about whether or not your experience is real. Sorry.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:15 (EST)
Poster: FOR
Email: bill burke
To: NV
Subject: NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Who wrote this? Your question about 'what if rawat represents the energy that sustains life.' You are one of those people I guess that don't believe in god. Certainly the world has a lot of them. It is just this 'energy' that we are part of and although WE are concious, IT has no personality or conciousness of it's own and you are the sperm trying to enter the cosmic egg. I find that view a little short sighted. You think you 'merge' with 'it'? like so many people that maharji and so many people that follow him do? Your breath is not a technique. Prem Rawat plants himself right in the way of god in his followers lives. How can you follow rawat and have a healthy relationship with god? HE is god. Although it is not good to find out that god not only fights with his mom but god banishes her from his life for 18 years till she finally died. Not exactly a good example for your kids. You may believe that he is 'Juxtaposed to the infinite' But take a look around, you are 100% surrounded by the omnidirectional fully saturated gift of life and a creation and be honest now-you have seen nothing on the back of your eyelids that can top a tree. And you have heard nothing inside that tops crickets. The real god gave you this life to enjoy and to appreciate and watch out for the ones that would try to tie limiting selfish dogma to your own breath. Never has anyone packaged the breath quite like this that I know of and to GET the knowledge these days from him do you know you have to say you have no other religion but rawat? It's true. Look I feel my breath most of the day. It is my preference and by the merciful god I have broken free of rawats clutches. I spent endless hours listening to him and we are frankly deeply programmed and it is hard to see finally the truth about him but it you owe it to yourself to ask your self 'Is he really god almighty or not?' If you want to think that feeling your breath is the way to merge, I am here to let you know that the so called 'infinite' you mention is occupied space. Someone resides there. You aren't going anywhere inside or out that will make you one with the infinite. You might have short experiences but god made you in a body and you are not supposed to show such distain for a creation that took 18 billion years to make that you spend your time following a mother hateing hindu guru trip that tells you that 'going inside' and loving the guru is what god made this place for you to do. HE does not experience any great oneness. HE is not in any divine state. HE was given a job to do by a father that was a hindu guru like many others and they ALL have the same basic error, they feel that anyone can play god and have followers and that is ok. Do you know the story of buddha? He badly mispercieved life and influenced millions to think there was no kind loving god but just some 'infinite' and that the only way to escape suffering was to free your self from this trap of a life by denying yourself Of course that REALLY is insulting to the creative power that spent all this time providing elements and a dna system and our wonderful qualities. Instead of discovering the love of the creator, we are following a guru that has always pretended to be god and cant seem to stop himself even though he knows he ain't. And to rationalize this to himself and others he leans on that buddist,hindu, guru, misperception of life that says it is just some 'infinite' that we are supposed to enter and in the hindu guru trip we are supposed to think the guru is somehow magically more godlike or something. And that is just not true. prem rawat is clearly not god. we can take our breath and our eyelids and go be free of him and that is highly reccomended by the real god I am sure. Good luck, after all the programming it is hard to be free but you stand a chance and you should try to take it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:24 (EST)
Poster: FOR
Email: bill burke
To: NV
Subject: NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Who wrote this? Your question about 'what if rawat represents the energy that sustains life.' You are one of those people I guess that don't believe in god. Certainly the world has a lot of them. It is just this 'energy' that we are part of and although WE are concious, IT has no personality or conciousness of it's own and you are the sperm trying to enter the cosmic egg. I find that view a little short sighted. You think you 'merge' with 'it'? like so many people that maharji and so many people that follow him do? Your breath is not a technique. Prem Rawat plants himself right in the way of god in his followers lives. How can you follow rawat and have a healthy relationship with god? HE is god. Although it is not good to find out that god not only fights with his mom but god banishes her from his life for 18 years till she finally died. Not exactly a good example for your kids. You may believe that he is 'Juxtaposed to the infinite' But take a look around, you are 100% surrounded by the omnidirectional fully saturated gift of life and a creation and be honest now-you have seen nothing on the back of your eyelids that can top a tree. And you have heard nothing inside that tops crickets. The real god gave you this life to enjoy and to appreciate and watch out for the ones that would try to tie limiting selfish dogma to your own breath. Never has anyone packaged the breath quite like this that I know of and to GET the knowledge these days from him do you know you have to say you have no other religion but rawat? It's true. Look I feel my breath most of the day. It is my preference and by the merciful god I have broken free of rawats clutches. I spent endless hours listening to him and we are frankly deeply programmed and it is hard to see finally the truth about him but it you owe it to yourself to ask your self 'Is he really god almighty or not?' If you want to think that feeling your breath is the way to merge, I am here to let you know that the so called 'infinite' you mention is occupied space. Someone resides there. You aren't going anywhere inside or out that will make you one with the infinite. You might have short experiences but god made you in a body and you are not supposed to show such distain for a creation that took 18 billion years to make that you spend your time following a mother hateing hindu guru trip that tells you that 'going inside' and loving the guru is what god made this place for you to do. HE does not experience any great oneness. HE is not in any divine state. HE was given a job to do by a father that was a hindu guru like many others and they ALL have the same basic error, they feel that anyone can play god and have followers and that is ok. Do you know the story of buddha? He badly mispercieved life and influenced millions to think there was no kind loving god but just some 'infinite' and that the only way to escape suffering was to free your self from this trap of a life by denying yourself Of course that REALLY is insulting to the creative power that spent all this time providing elements and a dna system and our wonderful qualities. Instead of discovering the love of the creator, we are following a guru that has always pretended to be god and cant seem to stop himself even though he knows he ain't. And to rationalize this to himself and others he leans on that buddist,hindu, guru, misperception of life that says it is just some 'infinite' that we are supposed to enter and in the hindu guru trip we are supposed to think the guru is somehow magically more godlike or something. And that is just not true. prem rawat is clearly not god. we can take our breath and our eyelids and go be free of him and that is highly reccomended by the real god I am sure. Good luck, after all the programming it is hard to be free but you stand a chance and you should try to take it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 31, 1998 at 23:42:31 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
NV: RE: My point being that if this is so, he never mislead anyone because what he said about his juxtaposition with the infinite would have been accurate. Sure, and if you stretch a piece of toffee until it's only a molecule thick it's still toffee, but not much of a mouthful. It goes to the issue of whether you're being transparent, i.e. honest. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 10:52:46 (EST)
Poster: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
NV, Can you seperate K from M? I think K has great value to me and some others here but I have no use for M. He is a deciver and a theif. He has stolen money and the hearts of those who were honestly searching for the truth and since I believe he knew what he was doing I think it is unforgivable! Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 12:38:36 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Now, if you are saying Maharaji is some kind of 'special' representation of the energy, I can accept your 'what if' because ANYTHING is possible, bounded only by the extent of one's imagination. So, I guess I can admit it's possible, but then you would have to also admit that it's possible that Maharaji is a fraud and just playing the perfect master game to finance his lavish lifestyle. Possible? Can you admit that? If you can't, I see that as evidence of programming and an inability to look at Maharaji objectively. I know what that's like, having lived that way for more than a decade of my life. But I don't believe M is any 'special' representation, because I have seen zero evidence that that is true, other than the fact that a bunch of people say they believe it, and also that I believed it, or wanted to believe it, at one time too. JW that's kind of a back handed admission of openess. If you truly are open to the possibility that he is special, but you have seen no evidence to support that possibility, then be open to the possibililty that others have. Whoa boy, now that would be a hard one for the little ego to deal with, wouldn't it? And in answer to your question, yes I'm open to him being a fraud. I however have never seen the life he leads create dissonance with the truth he showed me. Well, thank you for the admission that Maharaji could be a fraud, other premies who have posted here have not been able or willing to do that. And you are simply wrong that I'm not open to the possibility that others, at least believe, they have seen some 'specialness' in Maharaji. As I expicitly said, I used to believe that I saw that myself. In fact, for well over a decade, Maharaji was absolutely everything to me, and someone I devoted my entire life to. Most of the other ex-premies who post on this forum could say the same. I was absolutely certain I would NEVER leave or doubt him. But it took being away from following him and looking objectively at why I believed what I did (and this was NOT easy, it would have been much easier to just go on believing) that I began to see how I could have felt that way. Regarding whether the life he leads creates a 'dissonance,' how about the fact that he has an inherent conflict of interest because the more devotees he has, or retains, the money money he potentially gets? Thus, despite the fact that devotees might outgrow his practice, he never encourages people to move on. How about the fact that he spends virtually zero time with 99% of his followers, except in very controlled program settings, that arguably help create the aura of 'specialness' and 'group think?' Especially considering the sappy devotional songs that are sung to him, with lyrics that imply strongly that he is a deity? Could it be that he avoids that kind of personal contact because people might see how ordinary, and perhaps disturbed and abusive, he is? Or perhaps as has been widely reported he has a drinking problem? Why have so many people who spent a lot of time with Maharaji personally rejected him? People like Bill Patterson, Bob Mishler, Michael Donner. As I have said, the time I spent around Maharaji, I saw him be extremely abusive to people in ways that devestated them, because they wanted nothing more that to serve and please him. For example of ways he can manipulate a vision of 'specialness', for years he sat on thrones, wore crowns, spoke in the third person, had us do pranam, had us kiss his feet (still does), etc. Now the thrown is smaller and I don't think he wears those ridiculous crowns anymore, but he still refuses to interact on a personal level with his devotees, despite the fact that in the west there aren't very many of them anymore. People are astounded when I tell them I lived in the ashram for 10 years and was a community coordinator in DLM in three different cities and I never even met Maharaji and he never spoke to me, even once. Also, why does his lifestyle have to be SO lavish, if all he is into is revealing knowledge and trying to help people? Does he really need MULTIPLE residences, fleets of luxury cars, the most luxurious in a series of private jets, $5000 suits, etc, etc,? I mean doesn't that create just some dissonance on your part? Finally, if he is so special, why have 90% of the people who received knowledge left him and why is he more obscure to people now even than he used to be? Why does he avoid the press like the plague and refuse to even let premies give satsang, I believe, because he has no confidence in what they might say, and because premies might get into that instead of buying videos which seems to be his major source of income these days. Also, the 'video-only' satsang keeps the focus on him, but, frankly, I can understand why the video programs are so poorly attended, giving how mumbingly boring it must be to hear him speak over and over.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 14:16:48 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: NV doesn't get it (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Jim, I'm not sure what you're alluding to with your questions in the first paragraph of your response. Looks like your throwing up a smoke screen. How about an explanation. Your question about how I know my experience is real: I don't, so therefore I continually have to get in touch wit hoit again to confirm whether its validity. So far it always tests positive in the reality department. Jim, you are evading the point I made and all it's implications with your smoke-screen: What if Maharaji is not lying about his juxtaposition with the infinite, and that logic is really not able to adequately test such a hypothesis. Where does that leave you? You're right. You didn't understand what I was alluding to. If you had, you wouldn't accuse me of throwing up anything. I was simply suggesting that no one's beyond logic in their interactions with people, not even cult leaders, not even God in Human Form. When Marshall Applewhite told his landlord the rent was in the mail, he must have meant it. He surely couldn't have expected his landlord to bend the rules of logic around his fantasies. Similarly, if much more significantly, when Maharaji said he was going to bring peace to the planet and people believed him, that was like saying the 'rent's in the mail.' He has to answer for it. He knows that. He also knows that's the first thing any journalist would ask him about, hence the fear of interviews. Are you open to the possibility that Maharaji is afraid of the press? Your explanation of how you know your experience is 'real' is exceedingly naive. You say, it's real because you can tell it's real. First, what does 'real' mean? Second, how do you know how to read your meter, let alone that it's properly callibrated? But, I'm sure you don't care, right? Those questions probably don't 'interest you.' You then ask me what if Maharaji's ....... against all rhyme and reason? Well, in that case, NV, I've been a BAD BOY! I should ask yo in the same breath, however, what if Santa Claus is real? Where does that leave YOU? NV, you seem seriously bereft of any good critical thinking skills. Keep meditating, bro', it's really all you need.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 17:57:05 (EST)
Poster: Scott T.
Email:
To: RC
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: RE: Listen Scotty, the ability to play football is inherent in everyone on the varsity team, right? So why do they need a coach? I guess condescension becomes you? So now he's a coach. What next? I'm on the verge of uncontrollable laughter. Thanks. -Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 19:51:45 (EST)
Poster: RC
Email:
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: RE: Listen Scotty, the ability to play football is inherent in everyone on the varsity team, right? So why do they need a coach? I guess condescension becomes you? So now he's a coach. What next? I'm on the verge of uncontrollable laughter. Thanks. -Scott Why don't you put the jousting and cat-calling aside for a second - it doesn't become either of us - and respond to my question. Or are you trying to duck? I'll reiterate: Why do you need a coach if everyone on the team can already play football?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:03:00 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: RC
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: RE: Listen Scotty, the ability to play football is inherent in everyone on the varsity team, right? So why do they need a coach? I guess condescension becomes you? So now he's a coach. What next? I'm on the verge of uncontrollable laughter. Thanks. -Scott Why don't you put the jousting and cat-calling aside for a second - it doesn't become either of us - and respond to my question. Or are you trying to duck? I'll reiterate: Why do you need a coach if everyone on the team can already play football? RC, That's a dumb question. Do you want to re-read it and maybe retract it? No? Okay, football is a group activity. Individual players' ability to play has nothing to do the overall co-ordination of the team. You need the coach as a substitute for 'group consciousness' just like in an orchestra. So?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:23:49 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: JW
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
JW you've got it all figured out with a nice 'tight' explanation for every potentially controversial aspect of Maharaji's personna. The flaws in your arguments are however glaring and shameful. You use standard logic, ie: if A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C, right? You said (...in my own words) having a jet, multiple residences, et al is self-serving; he has a jet, multiple residences, et al; so he must be self-serving, right? Or: His work is funded by his followers; if they move on that will mean lost revenue; so he doesn't want them to move on, right? An example of linear thinking JW but you have to bridge the gap from A to C through a hell of a lot of ASSUMPTION. You are still completely in the dark as to his real motivation for doing what he does. Also, where there are holes in your logic you fill them in with generous portions of suposition. For example, '...Why does he... refuse to even let premies give satsang, I believe... because premies might get into that instead of buying videos...'. This is pure suposition!!! These are examples of how you consistently build your 'facts' as you go in order to back up your supositions, assumptions, and theories. SHAME ON YOU JW!!! I thought you wanted the truth. I could go through your post with a fine toothed comb and challenge your other points (and agree with you on some I'm sure) but sorry I don't have the time. I just wish you would be honest and fair.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 20:45:46 (EST)
Poster: RC
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
RC: RE: Listen Scotty, the ability to play football is inherent in everyone on the varsity team, right? So why do they need a coach? I guess condescension becomes you? So now he's a coach. What next? I'm on the verge of uncontrollable laughter. Thanks. -Scott Why don't you put the jousting and cat-calling aside for a second - it doesn't become either of us - and respond to my question. Or are you trying to duck? I'll reiterate: Why do you need a coach if everyone on the team can already play football? RC, That's a dumb question. Do you want to re-read it and maybe retract it? No? Okay, football is a group activity. Individual players' ability to play has nothing to do the overall co-ordination of the team. You need the coach as a substitute for 'group consciousness' just like in an orchestra. So? Before you knee-jerk a reaction at me and call anybody who's not a bona fide ex-premie an idiot, stop and take a good look at what a coach does. You obviously never had a good one, if one at all. You get marks for figuring out the most obvious one, ie: coordination and group conciousness. But you failed on the most important role, ie: to set standards for the group, and for each individual on the team, and provide encouragement to acheive those standards. A good coach will know the potential of each player and tailor the individual standards to bring out the best in that individual. In this way the individual grows, and the team benefits. Talk to any star athlete and they'll probably tell you about a coach along the way who made a difference. Do you really think that each player can do that for themself? Would you be so proud that you could not accept that someone else may know more about your potential in a given field than you do? So, Scott said 'the experience is in everybody so why do you need a master'. His statement is so riduculous to someone who seriously wants to realize their full potential. It shows he doesn't know what his own potential really is, or, that he's to proud to admit he may not know. So getting back to what started this discussion, VP's claim to have received K from the Internet is a joke.
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:01:33 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
I don't ask questions about things that don't perplex me. The questions you have are not MY questions, they're yours. All the questions that have perplexed me about M have been answered through practising Knowledge. You can't find the same answers to those questions because you have written Knowledge off. Fine. You'll never know for sure what I'm talking about. Yes I value logic. You're just another coward, NV, and a dishonest one at that. You say you don't care what Maharaji has to say for himself and I say you're a liar. The rapidity that you resort to name-calling and abuse is not only a reflection on your character, but also on the desperation of your cause. What virtue could ever be found in victory if you cannot win it while maintaining respect for human dignity? I'm none of the things you called me Jim. I sense that your blind rage wouldn't permit you to see an honest person if you tripped over them. Let's talk when you come down off your trip. 'kay?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:19:23 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
He gave me truth, of which I have no doubt... no deceit there. People give money to support what they believe in. You stopped believing; so that changes the giving to taking? And the act of giving to theft? Come on, grow up!
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 21:36:22 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: May I? (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Hey guys, I posted a reply to NV up above. Care to move uptown?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:00:44 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
I don't ask questions about things that don't perplex me. The questions you have are not MY questions, they're yours. All the questions that have perplexed me about M have been answered through practising Knowledge. You can't find the same answers to those questions because you have written Knowledge off. Fine. You'll never know for sure what I'm talking about. Yes I value logic. You're just another coward, NV, and a dishonest one at that. You say you don't care what Maharaji has to say for himself and I say you're a liar. The rapidity that you resort to name-calling and abuse is not only a reflection on your character, but also on the desperation of your cause. What virtue could ever be found in victory if you cannot win it while maintaining respect for human dignity? I'm none of the things you called me Jim. I sense that your blind rage wouldn't permit you to see an honest person if you tripped over them. Let's talk when you come down off your trip. 'kay? NV, Talk to your former fellow cult members as long as I have and you'll cut a few corners from time to time, too. I'm not saying those are bad corners to cut either. Let's face it, NV, you SOUND completely stuffy and unbelievable here. Do you understand that? Do you know why that's the case? One day perhaps you'll be free of this Maharaji web. Please save your posts for that time when you can lok bakc and laugh and weep at your bullshit. Here's what I mean. You say you don't have any questions about M, that they're all answered in meditation. That's why I called you a liar. I'll say it again, if you like. (And no, I'm not angry particularly. Certainly not hot-headed. Just calling it like I see it). If Maharaji gave an interview to some journalist would you read it? Of course you would. If you knew it was all about the history of his guruship and that it delved into every last bit of dirt that surrounds him (from the pie, to the Holy Family, from his alleged divinity to his finaances, affairs, alcoholism, you name it), would you read it? Of course you would! If M published an autobiography, would you read it? Of course you would? What if he charged a lot of money for it? All the better, right! You would take any last bit of info about him that he would give you and you know it. You're just afraid to ask, that's all. Go ahead, call me a fool. Tell me that you'd pass on the book and wouldn't read the article. Yeah, right!
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 22:19:23 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: RC
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Your -- sorry, Maharaji's -- coach metaphor is terrible for one particularly good reason: who ever heard of a coach who wouldn't answer questions?
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Date: Wed, Apr 1, 1998 at 23:21:31 (EST)
Poster: VP
Email:
To: FOR
Subject: Re: NV_NV_NV_NV_NV_NV (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
bb, This is one for the printer. I'm going to keep it for future reference. Like the way you said the 'Prem Rawat plants himself right in the way of god...etc.' You hit the nail on the head with 'nothing on the back of you eyelids that can top a tree...' That concept has more truth than anything I ever heard Maharaji say. Thanks, VP
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 01:32:46 (EST)
Poster: JW
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
JW you've got it all figured out with a nice 'tight' explanation for every potentially controversial aspect of Maharaji's personna. The flaws in your arguments are however glaring and shameful. You use standard logic, ie: if A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C, right? You said (...in my own words) having a jet, multiple residences, et al is self-serving; he has a jet, multiple residences, et al; so he must be self-serving, right? Or: His work is funded by his followers; if they move on that will mean lost revenue; so he doesn't want them to move on, right? An example of linear thinking JW but you have to bridge the gap from A to C through a hell of a lot of ASSUMPTION. You are still completely in the dark as to his real motivation for doing what he does. Also, where there are holes in your logic you fill them in with generous portions of suposition. For example, '...Why does he... refuse to even let premies give satsang, I believe... because premies might get into that instead of buying videos...'. This is pure suposition!!! These are examples of how you consistently build your 'facts' as you go in order to back up your supositions, assumptions, and theories. SHAME ON YOU JW!!! I thought you wanted the truth. I could go through your post with a fine toothed comb and challenge your other points (and agree with you on some I'm sure) but sorry I don't have the time. I just wish you would be honest and fair. You call YOUR response, honest and fair? I call it bullshit. You say absolutely nothing. You stated that NOTHING Maharaji does creates dissonance with you. I posited some things that might create dissonance in the average person, to which you don't bother to respond and instead call me names. And except for his drinking, which have been reported to me by others who saw it, but I haven't observed myself, those are things I have seen with my own eyes. I have SEEN the lavish lifestyle, I have seen the abusive behavior, I have seen the crowns and the darshan and the pranams and heard the devotional deity love songs. And I say shame on you NV, for not bothering to honestly address the concerns people have about your fraudulent guru. And frankly, I'm not surprised with your response. I don't even consider you the audience of my post. I couldn't care less if it changes your thinking one iota. I am more interested in seeing that non-premies, and premies who are questioning the very things I mentioned, know that there is another side to the story, that they won't ever get from premies, from those decietful aspirantk programs, and certainly not from Maharji himself. Actually, that's what I consider the purpose of this forum.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 02:48:24 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Why are you calling this 'Truth'? (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
For Truth's sake: WHY ARE YOU CALLING 'TRUTH' WHATEVER YOU 'EXPERIENCE'? Ever thought about it? You feel something, I did too, related to what you call your link with Mr Rawat, and you inner perception. Why don't you simply call it 'blissful feeling' or whatever? ever thought about it?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 09:17:12 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why are you calling this 'Truth'? (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
For Truth's sake: WHY ARE YOU CALLING 'TRUTH' WHATEVER YOU 'EXPERIENCE'? Ever thought about it? You feel something, I did too, related to what you call your link with Mr Rawat, and you inner perception. Why don't you simply call it 'blissful feeling' or whatever? ever thought about it? Because it is supported by zillions of scriptures such as the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible and myriads of testimonies of saints and mystics who were obviously talking about the same experience. It sure becomes clear when you have the experience yourself and compare it to what these people wrote.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 10:28:46 (EST)
Poster: Mr Ex
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Doesn't prove a thing! (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Did you ever notice there there are millions (not zillions) of other issues, on which people wrote tons of scriptures: it's all true. But not 'THE TRUTH' whatever that means (if there is anything like this, which is totally another issue). There are so many things so many people strongly believe in! The choice is yours. Don't say it's anything universal! Whatever Mr Rawat is leading can be categorized. That's all. Opinions vary. Mine is that he is a dangerous person (like many other, in various fields). We will not agree on this for the moment. I have very strong facts to back this up. What are you backing your opinion on? Do you know what is abuse? Usually you don't notice it for a while, otherwise it's not an abuse. What is deceit? You don't see what's behind. Very difficult issue, I agree. Many people before us have already thought about it too!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:15:09 (EST)
Poster: RC
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Your -- sorry, Maharaji's -- coach metaphor is terrible for one particularly good reason: who ever heard of a coach who wouldn't answer questions? Lame, lame, lame, lame, shame. You stopped listening.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:23:22 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Mr Ex
Subject: Re: Why are you calling this 'Truth'? (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
For Truth's sake: WHY ARE YOU CALLING 'TRUTH' WHATEVER YOU 'EXPERIENCE'? Ever thought about it? You feel something, I did too, related to what you call your link with Mr Rawat, and you inner perception. Why don't you simply call it 'blissful feeling' or whatever? ever thought about it? Forget about the Bible, Upanishads, and all the rest. I'l answer your basic question with another question: Why do you call quenching thirst whatever you experience when you drink water? ANSWER: It simply feels like the right thing to do. In that understanding there is truth. And yes Ex, I've thought about and been through the whole gammit. I keep coming back to a thirst that's so deep it hurts, and someone who ALWAYS quenches it. I don't know what inner perception to which you are refering but THERE IS DEFINITELY A LINK BETWEEN MAHARAJI AND THIS EXPERIENCE I'M REFERING TO.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:23:49 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Not good enough, Mili (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Mili, As PUBLICATIONS CO-ORDINATOR, WESTERN CANADA, I, too, delved into the scriptures, mining support for my belief that Knowledge is the big one. Here's why that's not as helpful as you might think: 1) Just because people around the world have an impulse to find spirits, gods and demons everywhere they look, doesn't mean it's true. Think about demons for a sec. For centuries people would argue, like you, that there must be a devil -- or devils. Look how many 'holy books' talk about them. Look how many people throughout time hve supposedly encountered them. Doesn't mean any of them wre right, does it? Now, those same 'scriptures' you're depending on for the tihngs you like all talk about a lot of stuff you simply can't accept. Isn't that the case? So don't you have to admit that there's nothing dependable at all in this sort of evidence? If you had any brains, you'd see that. 2) There's nothing the least bit universal about the 'Knowledge' allusions. They're all incredibly forced and, where they do fit, probably just indicate the same projections unscientific poeple would throw onto common phenomena.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:38:05 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: NV's melting (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
For Truth's sake: WHY ARE YOU CALLING 'TRUTH' WHATEVER YOU 'EXPERIENCE'? Ever thought about it? You feel something, I did too, related to what you call your link with Mr Rawat, and you inner perception. Why don't you simply call it 'blissful feeling' or whatever? ever thought about it? Forget about the Bible, Upanishads, and all the rest. I'l answer your basic question with another question: Why do you call quenching thirst whatever you experience when you drink water? ANSWER: It simply feels like the right thing to do. In that understanding there is truth. And yes Ex, I've thought about and been through the whole gammit. I keep coming back to a thirst that's so deep it hurts, and someone who ALWAYS quenches it. I don't know what inner perception to which you are refering but THERE IS DEFINITELY A LINK BETWEEN MAHARAJI AND THIS EXPERIENCE I'M REFERING TO. NV, You can't answer a question with a question. (I should know. I'm jewish.) You also seem to be reverting to some anti-rational stance. My suggestion is, stay away from block letters for a week and don't hug, punch or cry into your pillow. Try listening and speaking accurately a bit instead. If you want to say that the meditation seems to satisfy a thrist, that's fine. But wouldn't you like to know what the real condition/situation is? We're not afraid of the Tinkerbell Effect, are we? That is, you're not worried that the grace will leave you if you try to understand it, are you? If so, he's really got you man. Classic religious trap. No wonder you can't think straight.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 13:50:09 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: RC
Subject: Re: What DID you experience?
Message:
Your -- sorry, Maharaji's -- coach metaphor is terrible for one particularly good reason: who ever heard of a coach who wouldn't answer questions? Lame, lame, lame, lame, shame. You stopped listening. What's that supposed to mean? Are you saying Maharaji will answer questions? Say when , because I've got a few I'd like to ask him.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:27:53 (EST)
Poster: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Not good enough, Mili (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Mili, As PUBLICATIONS CO-ORDINATOR, WESTERN CANADA, I, too, delved into the scriptures, mining support for my belief that Knowledge is the big one. Here's why that's not as helpful as you might think: 1) Just because people around the world have an impulse to find spirits, gods and demons everywhere they look, doesn't mean it's true. Think about demons for a sec. For centuries people would argue, like you, that there must be a devil -- or devils. Look how many 'holy books' talk about them. Look how many people throughout time hve supposedly encountered them. Doesn't mean any of them wre right, does it? Now, those same 'scriptures' you're depending on for the tihngs you like all talk about a lot of stuff you simply can't accept. Isn't that the case? So don't you have to admit that there's nothing dependable at all in this sort of evidence? If you had any brains, you'd see that. 2) There's nothing the least bit universal about the 'Knowledge' allusions. They're all incredibly forced and, where they do fit, probably just indicate the same projections unscientific poeple would throw onto common phenomena. Jim, I know your rap inside and out. The thing that's most obvious from everything that I've ever read from you is that you didn't have the experience, the one that I have had. If you did, you would immediately have recognized it in all the scriptures. You must've been doing something wrong, like pressing all over the camera, instead of just pressing the shutter lightly. Sorry, bud. That's the breaks.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 15:37:06 (EST)
Poster: Rick
Email:
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Not good enough, Mili (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
Mili, As PUBLICATIONS CO-ORDINATOR, WESTERN CANADA, I, too, delved into the scriptures, mining support for my belief that Knowledge is the big one. Here's why that's not as helpful as you might think: 1) Just because people around the world have an impulse to find spirits, gods and demons everywhere they look, doesn't mean it's true. Think about demons for a sec. For centuries people would argue, like you, that there must be a devil -- or devils. Look how many 'holy books' talk about them. Look how many people throughout time hve supposedly encountered them. Doesn't mean any of them wre right, does it? Now, those same 'scriptures' you're depending on for the tihngs you like all talk about a lot of stuff you simply can't accept. Isn't that the case? So don't you have to admit that there's nothing dependable at all in this sort of evidence? If you had any brains, you'd see that. 2) There's nothing the least bit universal about the 'Knowledge' allusions. They're all incredibly forced and, where they do fit, probably just indicate the same projections unscientific poeple would throw onto common phenomena. Jim, I know your rap inside and out. The thing that's most obvious from everything that I've ever read from you is that you didn't have the experience, the one that I have had. If you did, you would immediately have recognized it in all the scriptures. You must've been doing something wrong, like pressing all over the camera, instead of just pressing the shutter lightly. Sorry, bud. That's the breaks. God, Mili, you're so incredibly subtle! How do you do it?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 17:50:04 (EST)
Poster: NV
Email:
To: Jim
Subject: Re: NV's melting (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
For Truth's sake: WHY ARE YOU CALLING 'TRUTH' WHATEVER YOU 'EXPERIENCE'? Ever thought about it? You feel something, I did too, related to what you call your link with Mr Rawat, and you inner perception. Why don't you simply call it 'blissful feeling' or whatever? ever thought about it? Forget about the Bible, Upanishads, and all the rest. I'l answer your basic question with another question: Why do you call quenching thirst whatever you experience when you drink water? ANSWER: It simply feels like the right thing to do. In that understanding there is truth. And yes Ex, I've thought about and been through the whole gammit. I keep coming back to a thirst that's so deep it hurts, and someone who ALWAYS quenches it. I don't know what inner perception to which you are refering but THERE IS DEFINITELY A LINK BETWEEN MAHARAJI AND THIS EXPERIENCE I'M REFERING TO. NV, You can't answer a question with a question. (I should know. I'm jewish.) You also seem to be reverting to some anti-rational stance. My suggestion is, stay away from block letters for a week and don't hug, punch or cry into your pillow. Try listening and speaking accurately a bit instead. If you want to say that the meditation seems to satisfy a thrist, that's fine. But wouldn't you like to know what the real condition/situation is? We're not afraid of the Tinkerbell Effect, are we? That is, you're not worried that the grace will leave you if you try to understand it, are you? If so, he's really got you man. Classic religious trap. No wonder you can't think straight. Cute and standard level of condescension Jim. Crying into a pillow; block letters; hilarious. I didn't answer a question with a question (even though I said I was going to). I used the example of quenching thirst to illistrate a point. You were so busy being cute you missed it. Now if I thought for a minute you knew 'what the real condition/situation is', I'd ask you to enlighten me. I'm talking about something that I'm sure you've forgotten all about. As for grace, who said anything about it? From everything I've read that you've posted over time, you offer a lot of reasons why not Maharaji, but all you give in its place is intellectual thought - e.g., evolutionary psychology. Sorry Charlie, there's a part of ME that that won't satisfy... even though I am a great fan of intellectual thought. And Jim, do get some manners and start talking to me like you'd like to be talked to. Your spoilt little brat quips are getting on my nerves.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 2, 1998 at 19:16:54 (EST)
Poster: Jim
Email:
To: NV
Subject: Re: NV's melting (Re: What DID you experience?)
Message:
NV, I DO talk to you the way I'd like to be talked to. Straight. Direct. That's how I like to discuss things. How about you? I condescend to you because I don't respect your communciation so far because, so far, all you've done is obfuscate, whine and whither. Stop doing that, talk clearly and directly and I will indeed respect you. I'm a sucker for that stuff. You suffer from such typical cult problems. You've been carrying this big security blanket called Maharaji all these years and now you say that maybe you'd consider giving it up if I could show you a better one. NV, did it ever occur to you that there might not be any valid security blankets? Evolutionary psychology is a way to try to understand what we are and how we got that way. Who said anything about satisfying your every urge. I like your premiespeak about 'a part of' you. Ah yes, I remember. 'A part of me' this and 'a part of me' that. (Almost as weird as the extremely duplicitous way anti-intellectual ignoramus Maharaji, unwilling to concede that thought was part of everything we do -- yes even meditate! -- tried to shove all sorts of stuff that didn't fit under the rubric of 'experience'). Anyway, if you like meditation, great. Go for it. I'm thinking I don't do enough of it myself. But don't think there's some sport of divinity inside waiting for you to 'come home' to the ocean of love. That's just wishful thinking. That's Maharaji's religious plug stuck to the side of a very simple pleasure, the pleasure of focussing your mind on simple life, away from the business of the neocortex. Or something like that. You asked why I mentioned 'grace' when you hadn't. Do you believe in it? Yes or no? If so, do you believe Maharaji has it to give? Yes or no? You say you like 'intellecutal thought'. (What is that? Another premieism? 'Intellectual thought'. Ha. It sounds so exotic, so precious. Well, whatever.) Good. Are you really interested inlearning something? Forget about the 'part' of you that wants to meditate. Let it meditate. But if you want to learn some stuff beyond what you'll get in the fantasy chamber of your own brain and the emptiness of Maharaji's ramblings, I can turn you on to some good titles. Let me know.
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