Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 20

From: Jul 29, 1998

To: Aug 8, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Mike -:- OK, the first one was old hat -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:20:11 (EDT)
__Passing thru -:- No prize -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:08:41 (EDT)
____TD -:- Yes prize -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 09:52:41 (EDT)
______TD -:- Oops, not Abraham, Mohammed! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:01:30 (EDT)
______Passing thru -:- Yes prize -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:04:58 (EDT)
________TD -:- Yes prize -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:03:31 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Yes prize -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:57:23 (EDT)
____________TD -:- Yes prize -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:40:30 (EDT)
__________M.B -:- Yes prize -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:18:13 (EDT)
__________Passing thru -:- Appreciation appreciated TD -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 06:49:22 (EDT)
____________TD -:- Appreciation appreciated TD -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 08:55:14 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- TD & PT -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:30:51 (EDT)
________________TD -:- TD & Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:34:26 (EDT)
____Mike -:- No prize -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:28:40 (EDT)
______Mike -:- No prize -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:52:39 (EDT)
____Jim -:- PT -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:13:38 (EDT)
____JW -:- No prize -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:02:18 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- So What? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:39:29 (EDT)
________Carol -:- BIG, me too! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:48:55 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- BIG, me too! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:22:48 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- BIG, me too! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:50:51 (EDT)

Laura -:- Love you all -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:24:12 (EDT)
__Jim -:- I only love you, Laura -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 00:01:11 (EDT)
____Laura -:- I only love you, Laura -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:34:00 (EDT)
______Jim -:- I only love you, Laura -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:42:27 (EDT)
________Laura -:- I only love you, Laura -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:45:22 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Love you all -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:37:19 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Love you all -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:16:03 (EDT)

Jim -:- A fuller answer to Robyn -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:10:07 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- A fuller answer to Robyn -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:44:55 (EDT)
____Jim -:- A fuller answer to Robyn -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:39:45 (EDT)
____Brian -:- A fuller answer to Robyn -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:55:28 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Brian -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:25:41 (EDT)
______Topless -:- Brian, Can I have my top back? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:13:22 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Brian, Can I have my top back? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:19:44 (EDT)

JW -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:17:14 (EDT)
__Mike -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:26:35 (EDT)
____x -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:00:52 (EDT)
______TD -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 02:36:38 (EDT)
________x -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 04:06:37 (EDT)
__________TD -:- Thanks x! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:46:42 (EDT)
____________Gail -:- Touching the Mahatmas feet -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:49:35 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Pranaming to mahatmas! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:45:23 (EDT)
__________Paul -:- Holy Water -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:07:55 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Holy Water -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:20:08 (EDT)
______Gail -:- ARTI -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:43:16 (EDT)
__Weird AL -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:48:39 (EDT)
____Mike -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:20:39 (EDT)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:32:05 (EDT)
______Mike -:- ARTI -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:20:03 (EDT)
____Carol -:- ARTI....Complete! -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:53:38 (EDT)
______Carol -:- Twamev Mata:Complete -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 21:17:30 (EDT)
________JW -:- Impressive, Carol -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:51:54 (EDT)
__________Carol -:- No, I found it and more -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:22:19 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- No, I found it and more -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:40:25 (EDT)
____________JW -:- No, I found it and more -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:12:55 (EDT)
________JW -:- Carol and BRIAN -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- Arti & Twameva are Hindi -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:07:17 (EDT)
______Jim -:- What? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 00:05:30 (EDT)
________Carol -:- What? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:25:43 (EDT)
__________Carol -:- It's your way in the songbook -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:33:08 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- It's your way in the songbook -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:28:13 (EDT)
____RT -:- ARTI from RT -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:58:00 (EDT)
____JW -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:09:08 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- ARTI: still sung to him! -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 18:30:09 (EDT)
____Victoria -:- ARTI: still sung to him! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:56:42 (EDT)

Mike -:- Another Quote -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:45:28 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- Another Quote -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:57:37 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Another Quote -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:16:22 (EDT)
______JW -:- Excellent Point -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:00:53 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Excellent Point -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:16:37 (EDT)

Mike -:- Sound Familiar? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:36:48 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Sound Familiar? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:30:26 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Sound Familiar? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:13:54 (EDT)

hamzen -:- dual realities -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:17:10 (EDT)
__Rick -:- dual realities -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:04:55 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- dual realities -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:41:46 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- dual realities -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 23:36:37 (EDT)
__Brian -:- dual realities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 08:16:03 (EDT)
____Passing thru -:- dual realities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:29:43 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- dualing modalities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:32:03 (EDT)
________Brian -:- dualing modalities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:14:31 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- Diverse Realities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:26:31 (EDT)
______JW -:- Diverse Realities -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 18:05:26 (EDT)

Gail -:- Trashing the hotels in Miami -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:20:48 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- BeingTrashedbytheCult in Miami -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:41:39 (EDT)
____Laura -:- BeingTrashedbytheCult in Miami -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:49:03 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- BeingTrashBytheRoadside -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:28:46 (EDT)
________Laura -:- BeingTrashBytheRoadside -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:39:00 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Blood on the tracks -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:08:03 (EDT)
____________Bill Cooper -:- Blood on the tracks -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 04:45:27 (EDT)
__CD -:- hitch-hiking story -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:56:05 (EDT)
____bill -:- At the Copa, Copa Cabana -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:42:23 (EDT)
____Jim -:- magic? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:49:12 (EDT)
______CD -:- grammar perfection -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:16:10 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- rhetoric detection -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:37:02 (EDT)
__________CD -:- rhetoric detection -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:56:43 (EDT)
____________Runamok -:- Woe is you -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:12:08 (EDT)
______________CD -:- you -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:16:39 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 09:52:29 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:17:16 (EDT)
______________eb -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:21:50 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:43:53 (EDT)
________________Katie -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:29:29 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- Many have tried... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:52:25 (EDT)

Pranam -:- update on search for Bob scott -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT)
__RT -:- update on search for Bob scott -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:09:56 (EDT)
__eb -:- update on search for Bob scott -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:17:22 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Reader's ad service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:40:07 (EDT)
____TD -:- Reader's ad service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:06:50 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Pranam -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:41:52 (EDT)

Jim -:- Anyone know David Icke? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:32:08 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- Anyone know David Icke? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:29 (EDT)
____seymour -:- Anyone know David Icke? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:02:03 (EDT)
______Nigel -:- Anyone know David Icke? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:39:32 (EDT)
________Anon -:- Anyone know David Icke? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 05:24:35 (EDT)
__________PaulR -:- Protocols of Zion -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:28:04 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Come now, Paul -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:17:34 (EDT)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Protocols of Zion -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 01:35:40 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:20:11 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OK, the first one was old hat
Message:
How about this one. This is a direct quote from GMJ given on November 8, 1970 at India Gate, Delhi. These words came out of his mouth and were recorded:

'... I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come, the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the savior of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who come to me are already saved.' 'Give me your love, I will give you peace. I am the source of peace in this world...'

Sounds to me like he knew what he was saying (no matter what his age was). He said it ALL in this little speech. If anyone says he never said he was god, they don't speak the english language. How much clearer would it have to be? (Savior of humanity?? Source of peace in this world??) I think those that rationalize away what M has said would have a REALLY hard time with this one.

But worse yet, I actually fell for this nonsense....
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:08:41 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: No prize
Message:
Dear Mike,
Claiming to be 'the saviour of mankind' and 'source of peace in this world' is not , in any language, claiming to be god.
PT
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 09:52:41 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
Claiming to be 'the saviour of mankind' and 'source of peace in this world' is not , in any language, claiming to be god.

No, but by saying those things, he aligns himself with other ‘deities’ like JC who the exact same thing has been written about, and who a lot of people believe was a ‘satguru’, God in human form.

As other exes have perceptively noted on this forum, MJ has always played upon our susceptibality to have some form of subconscious or conscious connection with one of our society’s main religious philosophies, which all seem to have a master/student kind of trip thing happening. Whether you’re Jewish waiting for the Messiah, or a Christian who believes in JC as the Messiah, or a Muslim with Abraham as a prophet but virtual Messiah, or a Hindu with Krishna and another 20,000 Messiahs, then there’s a fair chance, even if you outwardly rejected them, that some of those belief systems would have rubbed off on you over your lifetime, either consciously or subconsciously.

So even if MJ doesn’t come out and say, ‘Look I’m a holy divine dude’ (even though there’s been abundant proof on this site that he has indeed said those things, although not in the words I’ve chosen!) he’ll say exactly the same things those historical figures (aka Perfect Masters) are noted as saying and know that his audience, by assumption, will make that same connection.

It’s like if I say to someone who believes everything I say, “I can beat Donovan Bailey in the 100m”, and they know independently of me, that he’s the fastest man in the world, then they will then make the assumption that I am indeed the fastest person in the world, without me having said outright to them “I AM the fastest person in the world”.

Here’s a question for you PT. Do you believe that MJ is just a normal man (like you or I, only I’m a wo-man) who happened to be in the right place at the right time or do you believe he is unique, in that he has been divinely chosen to take Knowledge to the world?

Regards, TD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:01:30 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Oops, not Abraham, Mohammed!
Message:
Sorry, it's midnight here at the moment and I got my holy dudes mixed up due to it being, well, midnight! Time to get some serious zeds...
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:04:58 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
Dear TD,
If you said 'I can beat Donovan Bailey in the 100m', my questions would be 'Do you mean Donovan Bailey, the world record holder, running on a flat surface, does DB have a weight penalty, is he allowed to use both legs Yes, I do believe Maharaji is a normal man but he is unique to me as the one who showed me the means to discover what was happening within me.I don't care who or what approves or disapproves. Whether it was God or Kermit. All I'm intertested in is, what it does for me and I like it.
PT
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:03:31 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
If you said 'I can beat Donovan Bailey in the 100m', my questions would be 'Do you mean Donovan Bailey, the world record holder, running on a flat surface, does DB have a weight penalty, is he allowed to use both legs

And if I sincerely believed in my claim, I would welcome your questions and embrace your skepticism. If I knew that what I was saying was the god's honest truth, then I wouldn't think twice about talking to you about it and facing your questions. I would probably even have proof to back up my claims. Or, I could be making it all up or misleading you, which your questions would soon reveal. In this scenario, it doesn't matter. The goal, after all, is to establish the truth.

Why won't M ever give those who question and feel skeptical about his claims, the same kind of forum? If he sincerely believes what he says about himself and that it is a truthful situation, he shouldn't be afraid to talk about it with people who want to ask legitimate questions in relation to his claims. He could put an end to a lot of discussions here, if he'd only meet with us and answer our questions. Again, the goal here, is to establish the truth.

Thanks for your direct and honest answer re. Maharaji as a normal man. Sometimes it's hard to get one here from premies, but it is greatly appreciated when its given.

Regards, TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 10:57:23 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
To add to what TD is saying in his post: Not only will M not come forth and answer these honest questions, he considers us enemies! Enemies? Enemies of what? Truth? If he WERE the satguru or anything else special, he would 'understand' us. He would 'understand' our feelings and needs. He would fully 'understand' why we feel the way we do now. He certainly wouldn't be calling us his 'enemies.' Calling us his personal 'enemies' says alot more about him and his motives than we ever could (if folks would just listen, really listen, to what he is saying). Isn't love supposed to be understanding? I guess he doesn't 'love' us anymore. I certainly don't call anyone I love, or have loved, an enemy.

Just to make it clear, I'm not anyone's enemy, except those that would remove our freedom (in that case, I'm hell-on-wheels!).
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:40:30 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
To add to what TD is saying in his post:

Mike, as much as I love and respect you, you keep bringing up a sensitive issue with me - that of my sexchange. I was born a Barry, but am now a very feminine TD! The 10 years of oestrogen hormones have finally kicked in!

Good post, BTW!!

Cheers, TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:18:13 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Yes prize
Message:
Good work TD.
And PT.
Blessings from MB.
OK ?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 06:49:22 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Appreciation appreciated TD
Message:
Dear TD,
I think people have made far too many assumptions and claims for Maharaji to possibly clear them up nor is it Maharaji's responsibility to clear up people's misconceptions.
If someone really wants to know what he claims about himself and knowledge they need only go to a few video events. He has made his position very clear, over and over again.He is a teacher and he teaches people knowledge. For every ambiguous old Indian quote there are thousands in plain English that make it very clear he doesn't see himself as perfect, infallible or god.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 08:55:14 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: Appreciation appreciated TD
Message:
PT, after a number of years of going to video events 2-3 times a week and having gone to many live programs, I never once heard him call himself a teacher. He calls himself a Master or a Perfect Master, which carries with it all the connotations that we've outlined above and previously.

The only time I've heard of 'teacher' used in conjunction with M, is by premies at Elan Vital in response to a public or media enquiry about him, or by premies here on this website. Like answering ex-premie questions, if M from now on, used only the term 'teacher', like Teacher/Student and Teacher of Meditation Techniques in relation to himself, there would be a certain amount of appeasement amongst a number of ex-premies here, who take issue with the fact that he uses terms that imply he has some sort of divine status. Even if we were to make some allowance for him when he was a young boy, there is no excuse for him today to continue to use terminology that has such a subliminal effect on premies. This is not speculation. It happened to me, and to many others here.

You know the analogy that premies give about the Perfect Master/Mathematics Master scenario? I've just done an experiment and I recommend you do too. Go to a search engine like hotbot where you can specify 'exact phrase' and do a search on:
1. mathematics master
2. mathematics teacher
3. mathematics genius
and look at the top ten matches. That will give you a pretty good idea of what English terminology is used to describe the leaders/groundbreakers of the mathematical field.

Regards, TD

Incidentally, I did a search on Perfect Master, and got Osho's book on how to find the right one. He says something about becoming the perfect disciple, and then your perfect master will come....bloody hell!! Talk about flogging a dead horse, ex-Mr-Rajneesh!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:30:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: TD & PT
Message:
Like answering ex-premie questions, if M from now on, used only the term 'teacher', like Teacher/Student and Teacher of Meditation Techniques in relation to himself, there would be a certain amount of appeasement amongst a number of ex-premies here, who take issue with the fact that he uses terms that imply he has some sort of divine status.

TD,

This wouldn't appease me at all. If anything, it would be further proof (as if we don't already have a surfeit) of his dishonesty. No, his hand's been played. He siad what he said, we did what we did in response. Nothing can cover that up. Nothing can ameliorate the effect of his con. Well, nothing short of Maharaji's own confession, perhaps.

PT, I got confused back when someone was apparently imitating you. I'd asked you if you were willing to find an outside referee to consider the quotes. Was it you or the guy impersonating you who said 'yes'? I DID email a bunch of profs. Two replied asking for more information but I never responded because it looked as if 'you' had conceded the obvious. So, tell me, what's your answer?

Alternatively, are you able to find a single lagnuage expert of your own -- or really anybody for that matter -- who will support your position? Someone who will look at all of the quotes I showed you and also this one --

from the December, 1975 Divine Times, Maaharaji's satsang, November 9, 1975:

The Lord Himself reincarnates, reincarnates, reincarnates Himself for the very purpose of saving us. And we do not even realize who gave us the authority to refuse Him! Who are we anyway? From which field do we come that we can reject, that we can refuse, that we can deny our Lord? This is something that
I cannot answer. And we do it every time!. Because we have got a stupid ego. ..... We just don't know that we are His puppets.

***[a lot of stuff about how he could suck all the atmosphere away, etc.]

So when Lord comes to us, accept Him. And Lord is here. He has always been here. How can we make a statment, 'The Lord is gone', and then turn aroudn and say, 'Lord is omnipresent'? We are contradicting ourselves. He has always been here. He has always been saving us, but it's us who pull out of His shelter. [and on and on and ON]


So tell me, PT, who's he talking about, this 'Lord' thing that keeps reincarnating and who is 'here now'?

How pathetic, isn't it, that you have to deny him once again in order to protect him-- sorry, Him?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:34:26 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: TD & Jim
Message:
This wouldn't appease me at all. If anything, it would be further proof (as if we don't already have a surfeit) of his dishonesty. No, his hand's been played. He siad what he said, we did what we did in
response. Nothing can cover that up. Nothing can ameliorate the effect of his con. Well, nothing short of Maharaji's own confession, perhaps.


Yeah, fair enough. It wouldn't appease me in a number of different areas, but if he only called himself a teacher (without the capital T) from now on and if he tried for once not to speak in the goddamn 3rd person, I wouldn't have a problem with that one aspect. He might be a crap, corrupt and deviant teacher, and what he may teach may be hogwash, but he is still teaching something!

There was a premie here called Johnny Young who was a star on Australian TV for a number of years, and according to my ex, he would refer to the Big M, as his 'teacher' in any articles/publicity that were written about him, never my LOTU, or my Master. Johnny never got lambasted for being a cult member, or no expose was done on his life, because what journo is going to take issue with the term 'teacher'. The emotive interest in the term 'teacher' seems to be zip!

As long as Big M carries on with using terms like Perfect Master instead of teacher, aspirants/premies are going to continue to feel that what he offers is something so unique, so different to every other meditation teacher in the neighbourhood - which is crap. M knows that if he stopped using the Master terminology, the dropoff rate of aspirants/premies would increase dramatically, and in my opinion, that might be a start along the long road to getting his 'outright confession' !!

Regards, TD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:28:40 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: No prize
Message:
PT: YES it is making that claim. As TD pointed out in his post, using a GLOBAL statement (virtually identical to that made by/about JC) like SAVIOR of mankind IS the same thing. He didin't say, 'I will reveal the savior.' he said he IS the SAVIOR. He didn't say he was the REVEALER of peace, he said he was THE SOURCE of peace. There is a huge difference between the meaning of those statements. Look up the definition of SOURCE and REVEAL. There IS a difference! He knew this when he spoke it and he was well aware of what other 'holy' texts said on the subject. It's obvious from the words he chose!

Well folks, the first apologist/revisionist has spoken up and FAILED miserably. I was wondering how long it would take!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:52:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: No prize
Message:
Ooops: Sorry for the 'he' TD, while referring to you. My fingers (read that brain) slipped. :-)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:13:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: PT
Message:
Claiming to be 'the saviour of mankind' and 'source of peace in this world' is not , in any language, claiming to be god.

So you're back to give us all a little more entertainment. Lampooning premies, doing your little clown act, has to be absolutely destructive for the cult. We've had a number of premies see through Maharaji since this forum started, I'm not awre of any exes reverting back to cult membership. And why? Partly because they get to see people like you play out their conditioning in action. Go ahead, ask someone like TD or Gail who lurked a while before deciding that Maharaji's hug was a chokehold. Ask them what it was like reading people like Chris -- who sounds like he's had a lobotomy -- or you, who have made a complete fool of yourself denying the obvious. When their fellow cult members sound more cartoonish than the mob in Life of Brian ('the master told us to FUCK OFF!', people start waking up.

So, welcome back. What took you so long?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:02:18 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Passing thru
Subject: No prize
Message:
Claiming to be 'the saviour of mankind' and 'source of peace in this world' is not, in any language, claiming to be god.

PT, aren't you kind of splitting hairs here? Who besides god, or the messiah who is god incarnate, can be 'the saviour of mankind?' And what human being could possibly be 'the source of peace in this world?' Do you know how ignorant you sound by arguing these minute semantic differences? How programmed you sound?

And hey PT, how about these words from Arti?

Our Lord is the superior power in person, I bow down before such a wonderful Lord. [Lord, SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON? Could that possibly be god incarnate? Kinda sounds like it, right?]

Or this:

Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of your name...
Angels sing your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing your praises...

Many past forms you have taken
Now we have come in your control
Againg you have come to save the soul
...
You have come as Hansa the pure soul

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to you...
Scriptures sing your glory...


Now come on, PT. He not only tacitly allowed himself to called, thought of, and worshipped as god incarnate, he actively promoted those ideas.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 11:39:29 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: PT
Subject: So What?
Message:
PT,

I personally have seen thousands of people bow down to Maharaji and sing ARTI with all their hearts and souls...we all believed he was God. I think I mentioned this before to you, that maybe YOU were the one that didn't get Maharaji's message.

Thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of premies and exes out there got the same message from Maharaji -- that he was God incarnate.

So what? If the only thing that matters to you is that he showed you this great experience inside of you...why do you care so much that everybody else was thinking he was god? You still have your experience don't you? Does it matter that we don't agree with you?

It kinda matters to me that he's changing his tune. I wish I had been around in the meditation teacher days instead of the Lord of the Universe days. I feel bad about having spent so much time trying to convince friends, family and acquaintances that they needed k -- I'm hoping the people I led to Maharaji have found their way out without too much damage. My only defense is Good Intention...that I wanted them to know God like I did. If he was just a meditation teacher, I wouldn't have been so zealous, you know?

Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:48:55 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: BIG, me too!
Message:
I WAS zealous and self-righteous because I had the TRUTH. But I was also a very compassionate and loving person with good intentions! If he wasn't GOD incarnate, it wouldn't have meant much to me!
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:22:48 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: BIG, me too!
Message:
I know just what you mean -- I can't imagine giving my all to a meditation teacher...or is it just the aspirants who don't realize his claims of divinity?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 16:50:51 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: BIG, me too!
Message:
Victoria: I know some current premies that are still pretty vocal about M's divinity. I think your short post had a MAJOR point. I do believe the divinity thing is passed long, to this day, when the time is right; when the fruit is ripe, so to speak. After hours and hours of watching those mesmerizing tapes, you'd probably be open to anything. If it's repeated enough, by enough people, it takes on a life of its own. If M doesn't deny it, then it MUST be true, right? I don't believe the premies that tell me they don't say he's god, because I know too many that believe he is god. It just doesn't make any sense that they would keep that near-and-dear info, without repeating it to anyone, when they believe it so strongly. You see how quickly we espouse our beliefs (or lack thereof) here on this forum with very little provocation. I just refuse to believe that premies wouldn't do the same with any aspirant (when the time is right, of course). It MAY not be all of them doing it, but the number is large enough to keep the myth alive for a long time to come. (And HE hasn't done a thing to stop it!)
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:24:12 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Love you all
Message:
I'm at work and should be working - but I couldn't help loggin onto the forum. You are all wonderful, you make me laugh and you make me cry - I hope all of this helps to make me sane. Talk to you later. You are all really great! Sincerely, Laura
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 00:01:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: I only love you, Laura
Message:
Laura,

After flirting with a number of ex's and even a few premies for the past year and a half, I'm ready to settle down.. Wait, gotta go!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:34:00 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I only love you, Laura
Message:
You said 'After flirting with a number of ex's and even a few premies for the past year and a half, I'm ready to settle down.. Wait, gotta go!'

Talk to me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:42:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: I only love you, Laura
Message:
Hey Laura,

I was just teasing my girlfriend, Laurie, when I wrote that. She was sitting right there. Capiche? This is what we call 'fun'. Pretty lame, huh?

:)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:45:22 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I only love you, Laura
Message:
I was teasing too. :)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:37:19 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Love you all
Message:
Yeah... you have to watch it reading these posts while you are at work. I do the same thing and I have to be careful because these comedians make me laugh so hard that I can barely stand it. I swear, my co-workers are going to think I'm a few cards short of a deck..... But, it's worth it!

Take Good Care Laura
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:16:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: Love you all
Message:
Dear Mike, and Laura,
Same here but they already thought I was nuts at work so this just reinforced it!
Love and laughs,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:10:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A fuller answer to Robyn
Message:
If you can NEVER say to yourself. I can't make this person see my way of thinking so I will just stop trying. Is that a totally foriegn idea to you? I don't see how it could be, you must have run into people you've given up on winning to your side, must have.

It all depends, doesn't it? I've certainly argued with people I've given up on. I HAVE gotten into long arguments with JW's only to say 'this is going nowhere. See you guys. Thanks for coming. Don't come again, please.' But here things are a little different.

For one thing, my arguments with JWs are only for their and my entertainment and edification. Here, we're part of a group process. I wouldn't bother saying anything to Trickie Dickie if it was just him and me. What'd be the point? But he says shit, throws it out publically, as it were, and I feel that he should be challenged accordingly. Who knows? Maybe one day he'll have the courage to actually discuss things like a human being.

So sometimes I'm arguing with evasive or closed-minded people in order to help them elucidate their mindset for anyone else here.

Also, as we ARE in a group discussion here, walking away doesn't mean walking away from the other person, it means walking away from the discussion. If I'm not afraid or otherwise disinclined to argue my position, why should I stop? Just because the other person won't? That's really unsatsifying. What I liked with the latest Keith incident was that a number of people here joined in, stated their positions, basically telling him he was full of shit and ultiamtely he felt the weight of the consensus and backed off. I like that. I think that's a great process. Not 'tyranny of the mob', not by any means. Keith was more than welcome to disagree with anyone here. He just ran out of bullshit.

Does that cover it for you?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:44:55 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: A fuller answer to Robyn
Message:
Dear Jim,
Jim, thanks for getting to this, I was giving up on you. You and I have to agree to dissagree on lots of things I think. I bear you no ill will and hope you at least feel the same with that, I'm sure you do.

So sometimes I'm arguing with evasive or closed-minded people in order to help them elucidate their mindset for anyone else here.
When you are busy doing this do you realise that you also do the same for all of us as far as exposing your mindset for anyone else here as well. Just wondering if you have thought of it that way. There are always 2 sides. Once in a bar this guy, was telling a story about how he was in the ocean and was being pulled under and just grabed at whatever was there and ended up pulling off this woman's bathing suit top. I said and she is somewhere right now telling someone about the boy who grabed her top to save his life. We aren't in a bubble, all we do and are effect so many other layers, people here, ourselves, etc.
Thanks again Jim. If I could reach you I'd do the 'truce handshake' my dad always did with us as kids.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:39:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A fuller answer to Robyn
Message:
When you are busy doing this do you realise that you also do the same for all of us as far as exposing your mindset for anyone else here as well.

Of course.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:55:28 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Robyn
Subject: A fuller answer to Robyn
Message:
he was in the ocean and was being pulled under and just grabed at whatever was there and ended up pulling off this woman's bathing suit top

Sheeesh! The same thing happened to me once too. Except neither the girl nor the lifeguard bought my undertow story. I had to leave the pool...
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:25:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Brian
Message:
Dear Brian,
That was the first funny post I ever read to Jade that she really laughed out loud to!! To funny.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:13:22 (EDT)
From: Topless
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, Can I have my top back?
Message:
:)
Running Bare
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:19:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Topless
Subject: Brian, Can I have my top back?
Message:
Dear Topless!
Good to see you back and dressed! I tried to post to you and some others on forum lite and for some reason I can't from job1 and it is to close to being over for me to make much of an effort to figure it out. I'll have to log on when I get home from job2 if I'm not to tired. 6.5 work days at job1 left!!!!! :))
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:17:14 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ARTI
Message:
Mike's quotes of M got me thinking about Arti. If there is any one incriminating piece of evidence that M considered himself a deity and promoted that, it's arti. He had us sing it twice a day, and sat while we sang it to him at programs, after which we all dove to the floor and did pranam. I was trying to remember the verses. I think there are 16, not counting the twameva mata, sections at the beginning at the end. I'm going to write down some parts I remember, and others can add. I will suggest to Brian that the full text be put somewhere on the website, once it's complete. This is just from my Monday-morning memory. I'm not sure the following is even in the right order.

Our Lord is the maker of all things created
He (something) them and keeps them (something) to his (word?)
Our Lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
your glory fills the world
protector of the weary and the weak
you bring the death of attachment
you bring the mind true detachment
save us from the ocean deep
Jai dev Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to you
all bow and pray to you
Something, something something
Something, something something
Jai dev Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
all are swept out to sea
all are sinking in the depths of the sea
guru's boat is the holy name
guru's ship is the holy word
in seconds he has set us free
jai dev jai satgurudev

Anger, desires, attachments
rob us of eternal life
take away our heavenly life
something, something, something
something, something, something
jai dev jai satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
will never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
with out the grace of satguru
without the knowledge of satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
jai dev jai satguru dev

[Okay, so my 40ish memory isn't that great. Can anyone add the verses? Even one more?]

(Twameva mata)(End part of Arti)
You are my mother and you are my father
you are my brother and you are my friend
you are riches, you are wisdom
You are my all, my lord to me.

So, come on you exes. Let's get it completed and put it on the website. Okay?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:26:35 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ARTI
Message:
JW: I think I have arti on tape(????) If I do, I will transcribe it directly. I'm at work now, but I'll check tonite. Until then, you are definitely on the right track. Remember in the beginning we used to sing the ending in hindi/sanskrit? Whew, that takes me back!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:00:52 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: ARTI
Message:
JW
Mercifully that toxic homage to bm had been submerged all these years, but after reading your rendition, it started coming back to me. I even remember the tune now. I remember my mom clarifying the butter into ghee. so she could make the arti wicks out of cotton balls, when she had the good fortue to recieve this service. What I liked best about arti, was that it signalled the end of
a nights boring satsang, and soon we would be leaving. After some Alpha Premie cleared his throat and ended the 15 minute pranam, that is. I remember arti scared the shit out of me, especially the weird lighting from the swinging arti tray. Yea man, I'm really an O.G.(original gangster). I was there, man, and it was HEAVY. I sure feel sorry for all these newcomer premies that missed the real cult, I mean a guru trip just isn't the same in the 90's, man, if you missed it in the 70's, wy even bother?

x
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 02:36:38 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: x
Subject: ARTI
Message:
I sure feel sorry for all these newcomer premies that missed the real cult, I mean a guru trip just isn't the same in the 90's, man, if you missed it in the 70's, wy even bother?

I wouldn't have x, if I had known that it had such a cultish history! This ARTI is just incredible, both the original version and the humourous ex-premie re-mix!

You know, I don't know what I find more disturbing. The fact that all this stuff went on years ago, or the fact that all these current old premies never mention it to any newer premies/aspirants! You'd think with four years of involvement with M and having lived/spent lots of time with devoted ex-ashram premies, I would have been told/known about things like ARTI. But, nah! Nothing!

If I had known half the things I now know after having found out via this web-site, there's no way I would have gone to that second video event!! There should be a law that forces current premies to disclose all the crazy devotional things that they once did for the Big M.

BTW, what is the wierd lighting from the swinging arti tray?

Regards, TD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 04:06:37 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: ARTI
Message:
Hi TD,
Arti was a big production, involving a round silver tray, like the kind o'deurves(sp?) are put on, upon which are put a bunch of wicks made of cotton balls and clarified butter. After the tray is lit, the designated tray holder would swing the fiery tray around in circles while all the devotees would gather around and sing the lyrics choir style. All the lights would be turned off, so there is just a bunch of flickering candle light. Afterwards I think there was some holy water(bm's bath water!?) ritual, where you touched it to your forehead or something, and eat something,I think. Will someone who remembers describe the whole thing accurately for TD and the others who dont know about this, I was so young I cant remember it exactly. I do remember, that to me, it was even more ridiculous than it sounds, if you can imagine that. Who wrote this piece of shit anyway? maharaji ji? or was it one of his lieutenants? I think we can pretty much relax onthe whole 'does he claim o be GOD' question now, at least. Also I have a feeling you're not the only new person who would never go for 'it' if you were aware of these past embarrasments, no wonder he keeps it al so carefully hidden.

bye bye, x
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:46:42 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Thanks x!
Message:
Another choice premie moment kept out of those nostalgic videos, goddamit!!

Getting weirder by the minute...

Thanks for the account x! TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:49:35 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Touching the Mahatmas feet
Message:
How many of you used to touch the mahatamas feet? As if that would help you to be saved. According to some disturbing accounts, it's more likely that this action would have led to rape rather than realization.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:45:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Pranaming to mahatmas!
Message:
Yes, I swear to God, I pranamed to Tejeshwaranand once or twice while he strolled around the dining room in the Vancouver ashram and I got ready to walk off to work. I'm sure he was laughing himself silly as he thought 'this silly 'bwoie' (remember how they pronounced 'boy'?). I'm going to fuck one or two of my little harem later this morning and all he's got is the latest issue of the Divine Times.'
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:07:55 (EDT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Holy Water
Message:
x, if I recall, the Holy Water was rose water in which M had been kind enough to stick his feet. It was such a treat for the ashram to get a supply of it. After rubbing your hands over the flame and putting them over your third eye, the water was spooned out into your hand which you then DRANK and rubbed the remaining moisture over your forehead (third eye). Wow! It's all coming back.

Paul
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:20:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Holy Water
Message:
Yes, I think you accurately describe the flame ritual. And the 'holy water' was called 'charnamarit' which was ruputedly water in which Maharaji had stuck his feet. (Oooo, gross!). Some initiators travelled around with bottles of charnamarit and dispensed it to the ashrams and the communities to be used in the arti ritual, which was sung after satsang each night. In the ashrams, we got up at 5:00 am every day and sang arti every morning before meditation. We did the flame and holy water rituals as well.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:43:16 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: x
Subject: ARTI
Message:
You are so right. That trip was so weird. Swinging the tray with the butter candle to the picture. Of course, we can't forget the empty chair at the front of the room. I remember thinking that these people were crazy. Unfortunately, I stuck around too long and caught the disease.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:48:39 (EDT)
From: Weird AL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ARTI
Message:
I'll try:

our Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and keeps them and brings then all home to his word
Our Lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
your glory fills the world
protector of the weary and the weak
you bring the death of attachment
you bring the mind true detachment
save us from the ocean deep
Jai dev Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to you
all bow and pray to you

Jai dev Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
all are swept out to sea
all are sinking in the depths of the sea
guru's boat is the holy name
guru's ship is the holy word
in seconds he has set us free
jai dev jai satgurudev

Anger, desires, attachments
rob us of eternal life
take away our heavenly life
something, something, something
something, something, something
jai dev jai satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
will never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
with out the grace of satguru
without the knowledge of satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
jai dev jai satguru dev

(Twameva mata)(End part of Arti)
You are my mother and you are my father
you are my brother and you are my friend
you are riches, you are wisdom
You are my all, my lord to me.

Guru Maharaj Ji ,my life is within you, from you I was born, and to you now I go. Forever I am yours, my longing is endless this heart of mine aches, to be one with you.....

Twameva mata, Twameva Pata? Tasmey Shri, Guru Deva Deva
Guru Vishnu, Guru Deva

Jw this is all I can recall! Good! I was pretty sure I would remember it better I am glad I can't do it!

We could make up a Arti Parody too:

Rawat has the pinnacle, of all scams I've heard of, he tricks us and gets us to give him our stuff .....

Rawat is the superior con artist in person, I regret that I ever heard of his World.....

Hey Guru there maharaj ji, you are the fattest lord of all
It suprises me that you do not fall
When your tits bounce in the mala dress
When your boobs go up and down I guess
You must need to get a bro
Guru there, hey Guru there

Con artists, Scammers, liars..
All wish they could be as good as you
They wish that they had big planes too
Rawat's plane is the biggest one
Too bad his dick is the smallest one
We're glad we never got to see
Hey guru, Hey guru there...

In the river of bondage to Guru
Many have lost their credit cards
All lose their credit cards
All of it goes to Guru's boat
All of it goes to Guru's plane
In seconds he can take it all
Hey Guru, Hey Guru there

Chanting Fasting Charity austerity
Are all things he has never done
He knows that they are less than fun
Our guru boffs who he wants
Our guru takes all he wants
Chicks include monica and Durga Ji
Hey Guru , Hey Guru there

You aren't my father , and you aren't my brother,
Some say you're a mother _____, you're sure not my friend
You have riches, but I have the wisdom
I spit in the face of a fraud of a lord....
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:20:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Weird AL
Subject: ARTI
Message:
Weird Al: I pranam to the feet of a TRUE MUSICAL MASTER! Your rendition of ARTI (call it smarti), is MUCH better than the original... he he he. Now cut-it-out before I laugh myself out of a job... I've got to stop reading the comedic stuff at work...
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:32:05 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Weird AL
Subject: ARTI
Message:
If one checks the archives, one will find an Arti parody by Larkin.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:20:03 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: ARTI
Message:
MTP: Can you be a little more specific? I'm having trouble locating it and would love to read it. Thanks in advance.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:53:38 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Weird AL
Subject: ARTI....Complete!
Message:
ARTI

Our Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and keeps them and brings then all home to his word

Our Lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Heaveny hosts sing Your praises
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
without the grace of satguru
without the Knowledge of Satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Anger, desire, attachments
Rob us of eternal life
Take away our heavenly life
Satguru gives us true Knowledge
Satguru is eternal Knowledge
The sword that kills our problem life
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Religions harp their own glories
Call to follow their own path
Welcome me to follow their own way
The essence of all was revealed
The seed of all was revealed
I walk on the true way today
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Ambrosia from Satguru's feet is
Holy and it cleans us of our sins
So sacred in cleaning us of sin
When he speaks, darkness flies away
When he speaks, darkness cannot stay
Doubts removed, new life then begins
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Mine, thine, Heart, Time
Give them to the lotus feet of love
Give them to the lotus feet of the Lord
Give yourself to Satguru
Sacrifice yourself to Satguru
Be united with the blissful Truth
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Desires have robbed me and left me
Trapped in the darkness of the night
Yes, they've trapped me in the darkness of the night
Guru gives holy Name and Light
Guru gives Holy Name and Sight
Cross the ocean by His Love and Light
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Many past forms you have taken
Now we have come in your control
Again You have come to save the soul
In this time of darkness
To lead Your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hansa the pure soul
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Come to the shelter of Guru's grace
Come with your heart and your soul
Bring Him your heart and your soul
Cross the worldly ocean
Cross it by your devotion
And attain the supreme goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Jai Gurudev maharaj Ji
May Your glory always spread
You bring bliss to those who come to you
You dispell our illusions
You dispell our illusions
And free us from the ocean of dread
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

(Twameva mata)(End part of Arti)
You are my mother and you are my father
you are my brother and you are my friend
you are riches, you are wisdom
You are my all, my lord to me.

Guru Maharaj Ji ,my life is within you, from you I was born, and to you now I go. Forever I am
yours, my longing is endless this heart of mine aches, to be one with you.....

Twameva mata, Twameva Pata? Tasmey Shri, Guru Deva Deva
Guru Vishnu, Guru Deva
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 21:17:30 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Twamev Mata:Complete
Message:
(Sorry I missed a couple of typos on Arti.)I have the Hindi pronunciation too.These songs say it all about what I used to believe! (I also accidently left part of Twmaev Mata on the Arti post)This wasn't easy to do, feels like re-visiting marriage vows from a failed marriage!Carol

Twamev Mata, chaa pita twameva
Twamev bundu chaa sikha twameva
Twamev vidya dravinum twameva
Twamev sarvum muma deva deva
Twamev sarvum muma deva deva

You are my mother, You are my father
You are my brother, You are my friend
You are riches, You are wisdom
You are my all, my Lord to me.
You are riches, You are wisdom
You are my all, my Lord to me.

Guru Maharaj Ji, my life is within You
From You I was born and to You now I go
Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless
This heart of mine aches to be one with You
Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless
This heart of mine aches to be one with You

Wherever I look, Your face is before me
Your golden Love melts all my troubles away
I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow
Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play
I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow
Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play

Oh wondrous Lord, my Guru Mahraj Ji
Your grace is a river which flows on and on
You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing
Let me come home find my rest at Your feet
You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing
Let me come home find my rest at Your feet
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:51:54 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Impressive, Carol
Message:
Thank you, Carol. Did you do all that from memory???

I'm going to print it off and ask that Brian put it somewhere on the site. I think it really needs to be there.

Thanks again.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:22:19 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: No, I found it and more
Message:
I have an original copy that I go at the ashram early on. I also have two published songbooks. Any requests? Apne Haste, Satguru Has Come, Lila, The Lord of the Universe, Guru Charana Kamala, etc.
Carol
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:40:25 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, I found it and more
Message:
Carol: we sure did sing some silly songs didn't we? Who, in their right mind, would sing about ACNE PASTE? (Wanted to bring a smile to your face) ;-)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:12:55 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, I found it and more
Message:
God, I remember that song Apne Haste, with that Hindi sound and words. Do you remember that song that went:

Govinda, Hare puja .... etc., etc., ?

I remember Satguru Has Come, too.

Now what was that band that featured Gurucharanand? Holy Jesters? God, did they STINK. Gurucharanand may have been okay at fucking around with the sisters, but he sure couldn't sing. Wasn't Arthur Brigham (Mahatma Pompousassanand) and Rich Neal (the alien) in that group, too? I understand Arthur is a heroin addict in Australia. Poor guy. No matter how much of an unbearable twit he was, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:15:07 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Carol and BRIAN
Message:
Gee, Carol. I had forgotten about that the twameva section had so much stuff in it. God, it really IS bizarre, isn't it? We really DID think he was GOD and so, apparently, did he!!! We sang that song endlessly. I sang it twice a day for years and he had us sing it to him at programs. Now, if he really didn't think he was GOD, which would he do that? It was sung to him at least until 1982, possibly 1983, which is when I left.

Brian, since Carol has taken the time to give us complete ARTI, is there some way it can be put permanently on the website? I think this is a VERY important historical item that premies, ex-premies and aspirants should know about, especially because Maharaji is attempting to deceitfully cover it up, and from what TD says, the premies are going along with it.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:07:17 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Arti & Twameva are Hindi
Message:
Its not just Maharaji. Twameva Mata and other songs are traditional songs that are sung to Hindu gurus. When I was in Hardwar India 1971 I walked in the evening and heard Arti and Twameva sung in other ashrams.

Listen to some of the George Harrison songs for verses of Twameva Mata.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 00:05:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: What?
Message:
Ambrosia from Satguru's feet

I remember it as 'nectar' and

Mine, thine, Heart, Time

This was 'Mine, thine, wealth, health' wasn't it?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:25:43 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What?
Message:
I remember those variations or changes, now that you bring them up. I copied a handout I got from the ashram in the early 70's.
Carol
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:33:08 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's your way in the songbook
Message:
I just checked. It was published in 1974 by Denver DLM. My mimeographed copy was older. carol
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:28:13 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: It's your way in the songbook
Message:
Carol: I remember those lines thae same way as Jim stated. Funny thing is, I do seem to remember some confusion of the stanzas back then, too. Isn't it just typical????
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:58:00 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: ---
To: Weird AL
Subject: ARTI from RT
Message:
LOL. Sending it to Visions! 'Lord let them see, they who are so blind.'

Very good! And I would know.

RT
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:09:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Weird AL
Subject: ARTI
Message:
Thanks for that AL. That was, as Katie would say, 'wicked.' Great. As Mickey said, Larkin did a good parody of Arti some months ago as well, which was also good.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 18:30:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ARTI: still sung to him!
Message:
Don't forget:

thousands of western premies attend the indian events every year,
and guess what?
they still sing arti to him there every night!

DID YOU KNOW THAT ?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:56:42 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ARTI: still sung to him!
Message:
Oh, man, do the Indian premies know that they are worshipping a mere meditation teacher???

Or is it just the normal Indian way to treat meditation teachers this way???

Just wondering...

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:45:28 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Quote
Message:
On August 1, 1966 GMJ said, 'Dear Children of God, whay are you weeping? Haven't you learned the lesson that you Master taught you? The Perfect Master never dies. Maharaj Ji is here, amongst you now. Recognize him, obey him and WORSHIP him.'

To any premie lurkers: does this sound like he is calling himself god? Calling himself eternal? Calling himself THE Perfect Master? Who else would you be expected to worship?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:57:37 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Another Quote
Message:
My guess is that he never said this. What was he, eight years old at the time? It is more likely that the people around him made this up and attributed it to him. More lies and deception.

The point you are making is still valid, though. He was promoted as the living god to be worshiped as such.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:16:22 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Another Quote
Message:
Gerry: that is certainly a plausable explanation, but all we have to go on were the people that were there and the video tape of him speaking to the grieving devotees (excerpts of which are in the Who Is GMJ video). But, even if what you say is really what happened, why has he not come forward himself, personally to tell us that it was all a lie. Again, he approves by 'silent assent.' I've got some more quotes that are even worse than this one, that are on tape. They were made when he was old enough to know what he was saying. I'm compiling some of them, now. Most are 'old hat,' but they are certainly conversation pieces. he he he.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:00:53 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Excellent Point
Message:
Mike:

I think what you are saying is an important point. If anything that was attributed to M about his divinity, power, or whatever, he had an OBLIGATION to clarify that it wasn't true, if he didn't think it was. At least when he was old enough to understand what the fuck was going on, he certainly had an obligation to do this, if he has any morality of integrity whatsoever. To this day, he still hasn't done it.

He knew very well that he was considered by large numbers of premies to be god and lifted not one chubby finger to dissuade us in those beliefs. Instead he said vague stuff that INCREASED our beliefs, wore crowns, sat on thrones, allowed us to sing arti and 'Lord of the Universe' to him, and had us pranam to him and kiss his feel. Silent assent, or tacit assent is obvious as you say, but it goes further. He actively promoted the idea that he was god by both his words and actions, for years.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:16:37 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Excellent Point
Message:
JW: that's the word I was looking for: OBLIGATION. Well said!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:36:48 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sound Familiar?
Message:
I know this subject has been discussed, but guess what I found? THE required loyalty OATH in full:

'Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I dedicate myself to you. I am weak and ignorant and am filled the the impurities of this world. Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, through Knowledge please purify me of the impurities of this world I possess. Reveal to me the Knowledge of all Knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the Truth within inside of me. Bring me from hate to love, darkness to light, death to immortality. I will follow your direction and will never reveal this Knowledge to anybody for any reason. I will keep in contact with You through my devotional love, satsang, mediatation and service.'

Man, is this thing a smoking gun or what????
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:30:26 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Sound Familiar?
Message:
Was it the 'old' k vows ?

I've heard this hundreds of time, I don't remember on which occasion!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:13:54 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sound Familiar?
Message:
Jean-Michel: Yes, this is the 'original' vow. Kind of revealing isn't it? Despite attempts to do the 'revisionist' thing, it still stands as it is and says what it says. Yes, I'm sure it has been posted before, but a few folks were wondering about it recently, so I decided to re-post, if you will.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:17:10 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: 4am@hamzen.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: dual realities
Message:
watching the site for a couple of weeks and it strikes me that there are 2 general positions being taken (1) maharaji full of shit and a prime guru/devotee manipulator (2) I'm starting to think for myself but it ain't easy. Is there anybody out there who had strong experiences in meditation & still has and thinks that maharaji is a pretty transparent and predictable and dangerous person
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:04:55 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: dual realities
Message:
These aren't two positions, just one position.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:41:46 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: hamzen
Subject: dual realities
Message:
That's a very valid post, Hamzden. Have you had strong experiences from meditation? I'd be interested to hear about them as I'm sure others would be to.

I've experienced both. A strong devotee/Lord relationship and strong meditation experiences. But was my devotion a projection onto the guy who I thought was the living Lord? Was it to my imaginary friend? If people really, really believed that Jim Heller was God in human form, wouldn't we attribute so much of our experiences to Him? Wouldn't Jim's words take on an infinitely more powerful meaning? Would we not love him with all our heart because he was the Lord of our dreams and seek to please him at any and every opportunity? And wouldn't we just gloss over any of his apparent imperfections as Jim's lila to make Himself more like us?

How much was projection of our need and desire to have a living God? Projection onto Maharaji. I was being told from my teenage years that he was God in human form. Devotion to God is great, very powerful but did we find Him?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 23:36:37 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: hamzen
Subject: dual realities
Message:
I basically concur with what you are saying. Eventually, I had very powerful experiences in meditation and began a process of leaving Rawatt as my meditation experience accelerated.

What do you think about that?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 08:16:03 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: hamzen
Subject: dual realities
Message:
These are separate issues that we've been encouraged to lump together by Maharaji - having a strong meditation experience, and being grateful to him for it.

The premie line (Mahararji's TRUE 'gift') is that Maharaji is the only one who can teach the techniques and cause the students to experience any benefit. The fact is Maharaji extracts a promise from his devotees that they NOT reveal the techniques, even if they derive a benefit from them. Those who want to share what they've been 'given' are free to direct people to Maharaji so that they may also join in the charade that he is the source of the experience.

Don't you think that people who practice Kundalini Yoga (or even the devotees of Maharaji's big brother Satpal Maharaj) also experience something in meditation? By whose grace do they experience it? By whose grace do they derive nutrition from the food they earn and eat?

By whose grace has Maharaji become a very wealthy man?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:29:43 (EDT)
From: Passing thru
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: dual realities
Message:
Dear Brian,
My experience is that, even though anyone can teach the techniques, it was Maharaji who brought the techniques to me and it was Maharaji who constantly inspired me to practice them. For that I will always grateful.
PT
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:32:03 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Passing thru
Subject: dualing modalities
Message:
PT,
Do you feel any gratitude to Brian for the work he does to keep this thing running? I'm sure you think you are doing him a favor by praising M on the forum- but isn't your involvement with the forum predicated on his hard work in keeping it going? It is because of Brian isn't it- or we should be more grateful to you in your mind?
If you want to use your intellect the question is a theoretical one for you- could the Knowledge be delivered to you without Rawatt? By the way, I'm sure your knowledge could be delivered to me without you.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:14:31 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Runamok
Subject: dualing modalities
Message:
Probably a better site/forum analogy is that the person who put you on to this forum is someone you can be grateful to if you find it useful to read/post here. But you don't have to keep traipsing over to his/her house to be 'encouraged' to use this forum, and doing so in the case of Maharaji-worship is choosing to remain dependant and immature.

Were your 'friend' to extract a promise from you that you not reveal the secret URL to anyone, but instead direct them to him where he could make sure that they were 'ready' to have this great 'gift', you'd laugh out loud. Yet that is Maharaji's 'gift' - endebtedness to a selfish fraud.

BTW, premies are free to post pro-Maharaji garbage here. It just proves the site's point. It's Maharaji that doesn't want them to post on the internet, not me. Personally, I want them to become big boys and girls and not be dependant on anyone else to talk about their feelings and experiences for them. It's a pipedream, I know.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:26:31 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Brian and all
Subject: Diverse Realities
Message:
If you get into it, there are numerous places where the knowledge techniques are at work in some variation. The knowledge techniques and variations thereof are common in China and the orient as well as India and it's neighbors. If one does leave the fold and continues to refine and search, the presence of the 'Knowledge' and people practicing without reference to Rawatt obviously exists in the mega millions. The single lineage seems more like a business takeover than a divine event. Any guru in operation is arguably running a rogue operation, lineage-wise. And many practices in China and the Orient incorporate the techniques without regard to a living guru- try a book called 'Secrets of the Golden Flower' for nectar technique.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 18:05:26 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Diverse Realities
Message:
I think the fact that there are variations on the techniques and that the same or similar experiences result is a good one.

I was very diligent about practicing the meditation, using the techniques revealed to me in a knowledge session, for a good 10 years. What I discovered after stopping that practice was that the experience I had is found lots of places. Basically, in any situation were I relaxed and concentrated, the experience could be profound.

For example, in both long-distance running, and in rock climbing, I have the same intense, timeless experience I had in meditation. I have also found that sometimes in sex, the concentration is so intense that it can be there as well. You see, in my experience, what you feel in meditation is nothing more than the experience of concentrating you mind on something -- your mind slows down to some degree or another, and with little or no thinking, you observe 'life' more intently. I think that's what it is. There is nothing magical or spiritual about it. It's just a variation on the experience of life.

And to say that M ever gave meu the experience of my own life is just plain ludicrous, although I believed it intently for some time. He convinced me both by positive statements, and my trying to scare the shit out of me, that I couldn't even experience my own life without him and his 'grace.' It was a big lie.

As far as finding M inspiring, actually, I had the opposite experience. M was a BIG distraction from my practice. I DID get a 'group high' sometimes at programs when he was there, but that really had nothing to do with him, except as an object that group was focusing on and getting worked-up over. And then all the stupid, contradictory stuff he said, including the threats, as well as the endless service he demanded, meant I actually experienced LESS than I have since I left the cult for good.

Even the techniques, to the extent they have any value, weren't revealed to me by M. They were revealed by Mahatma Parlokanand, an admitted pedophile. So even gratitude for that is a misnomer. Plus, he got nine years of my life and all my money so I think he's been paid back handsomely.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:20:48 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Trashing the hotels in Miami
Message:
Were any of you involved in trashing the trashy hotel rooms in Miami? Remember Joe Anctil telling us to leave tips for the maids and to remember to shut off the water. He said we should leave tips at the restaurants, too.

Wolfies was a great place to go if you were really broke. You got all the buns you could eat and a coffee for a buck.

I went to one program in '78 with very little money. I had a flight special and had to stay a week. I ended up eating the buns at Wolfies every day for every meal. I ended up getting a housekeeping job for a day at this rich folks' house. They worked me like a slave and gave me $8 at the end of the day. I ended up with enough to take a cab to the Miami airport.

When I arrived in Toronto, I had no cash. I ended up hitch-hiking back to London. I was sobbing at the side of the road. Each undesirable car that stopped would make me wail even harder. I finally started singing Arti (can you believe it). A nice old man stopped. I asked him if he was a rapist or axe murderer. He said, 'No.' I ended up crashing in his car all the way to London. He left me at the highway. Of course, I had to hike the rest of the way through town.

THERE WAS NOTHING WE PREMIES WOULDN'T DO TO SEE OUR LORD, WAS THERE.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:41:39 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower
To: Gail
Subject: BeingTrashedbytheCult in Miami
Message:
I can remember very similar scenarios. In Florida with dishwashing and busboy jobs- and eating at Wolfies. All my stuff was stolen hitchhiking one time- like I had a lot to steal. I was lucky enough to make if it back to NY in one piece.
I also remember some festival in Florida- I think near Miami and maybe the same one- out on a few acres of land someplace. I think we had a little of the fake krishna routine without the top on. It was really muddy. Was Joe Anctil the much celebrated non-ashram resident press secretary? Anyway, M kept saying that we 'had to get a place' where we all could live and implying that there would be a bunch of land for premies to go to all. This encouraged alot of us to drag from city to city and then get burned in the most menial jobs and depressing conditions possible. That's when I realised that some fatcat was ripping me off for my love...
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:49:03 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: BeingTrashedbytheCult in Miami
Message:
Hi Runamok - Found this site and can't get off! I remember Joe, very tall, intelligent, sophisticaled type, ran interference with the press! He also taught dance - How funny to think of him after all these years. Sorry - no great insight here, just remembering.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:28:46 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Laura
Subject: BeingTrashBytheRoadside
Message:
Laura,
That was really when I realised that this guy on the stage was more interested in my money than my welfare. That realisation came amidst pitiful impoverished conditions tempered only by youth- meaning I could handle it physically better than I could now.
In general, I'd rather hear negative things about the cult here than good things about the knowledge. I also wish we'd puruse one train of thought in our threads.
Going from one city to another taking dishwashing jobs is not what a caring compassionate teacher would encourage- if that person gave a shit about his students. That's just somebody mugging you for your money. It can be hidden and rationalised and half the expremies on this thing would like to rationalise it but I don't want to be an apologist for some con man who is out there now looking for fresh blood.
Does anybody remember the LAND rumors and promises? That we would get a place- Land- where all the premies could live if they wanted to. Man... that is some cold kinda guru bull shit is all I can say..
Anyway Laura, I am glad you made it on line and there are of plenty of positive things to say too.

Runamok
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 22:39:00 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: BeingTrashBytheRoadside
Message:
Was I being reprimanded in your previous message? I'm a little confused.

Should I be saying positive things? Negative things? Talk about the negative in a negative or a positive way? Talk about the positive in a negative or a positive way? Should I adopt a Pollyanna attitude as someone else suggested?

A lot of advice is given on this forum.

I'm a little surprised.

I think by talking, remembering, rehashing, etc., each in our own fashion, we can learn.

Talk to me.

And oh yes - I think I can recognize a thread When I see one.

(I guess you can see what criticism does to me!)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:08:03 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Laura
Subject: Blood on the tracks
Message:
Laura,
Nope, there's room for anything here. I'm the one feeling trashed as the title implies-
I remember feeling really trashed at that festival. I started thinking 'this guy doesn't give a shit if I slave my whole life trying to do this', similar to the original posting of the thread which describes the substandard labor conditions that we typically found ourselves locked into. I'd say I set myself back 10 years or more (vocationally) with M. We only average around 70 or 80 years. It's not really an inspiring set of facts and that's what is most important to be said around here in my opinion.
I hear echoes in countless people saying that they finally got the degree they should have gotten. Probably on average we blew alot of upward mobility off so that Gooma could hustle 10% of it. You know - like when your stuff gets ripped off- it goes for about 10% in a pawn shop- well Gooma knows some kinda cosmic pawn shop. He can trash your life and get 10%- that's how I look at it.
It kinda sucks to be thinking that and someone goes- yeah I hitchhiked too and it was farout. It was farout sometimes but it really stinks being someone's slave- and it really stinks more when they really don't care if you are cold or hot or if you slashed your wrists as long as the blood doesn't get on the mercedes- that's how it looks to me.
Why take the most idealistic and trusting part of people and use it for your own glorification and enrichment? It's gotta be evil.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 04:45:27 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Blood on the tracks
Message:
I remember being in London just after the big festival at the Alexander palace must have been about 72(?). I remeber all these posters everywhere declaring the program and the all had that big picture of GM making him look a bit like Mao Tse Tung. I hung around a lot trying to get knowledge and would end up walking the streets at night or be taken in by kind premies. Looking back it was an incredibly vunerable position to be in. I packed up my degree so I could hang around the palace of peace. A mate of mine Paul although not gay allowed himself to be buggered by some guy so that he could hitch a lift in Germany to a festival. The guy dumped him a few km down the road anyway. People would do ridiculous things to get the money together to get to a festival, deal drugs etc.

I think I felt that all that advertising must have meant that GM was for real. I remember later on when who is Guru Maharaji came out and going to a festival ( I cant remember where ) and seeing the bookstore window full of this book. With all the claims that GM has made and his record he could not survive the light of media attention today.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:56:05 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: hitch-hiking story
Message:
> I ended up hitch-hiking back to London.

One time hitchhiking to New York from San Diego, myself and 2 friends got stuck in El Centro all day with 120 degree heat.
We had woke up at 7:00AM after spending the night next to the ramp and we finally got out of there around 4:00PM with a ride from some really nice people and a place to stay the night..
Then the next day a guy in a Cadillac with a big bag of green stuff picked us up in New Mexico which was much better.
Way later near Chicago, myself and my buddy (left our friend in Denver) got picked up by a drunk guy driving a convertible 90 mph with a case of beer in the front which he was guzzling cans from one after the other.
We got out of there pretty quick when we realized what was up.
Another guy stopped shortly after that to give us a ride.
We were thinking, this is great to get a ride so fast.
He ended up taking us into the middle of nowhere and tried to get us to take our clothes off.
He was impersonating a cop and also a huge person.
He had all sorts of fake police gear like radio, lights ...
After yelling at him a lot we were able to get the car back to the freeway to a mosquito infested on-ramp where we climbed up a hill to a rest stop and slept for the night.
We finally made it to New York and on to the 1973 Guru Puja event on the outskirts of London.

Hitchhiking had some weird times but overall I had a lot of great adventures doing it.
These days I do fly to events that are more than a 3 hour drive away.
No more drive-away cars - g!

Regards,
CD
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:42:23 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: At the Copa, Copa Cabana
Message:
Sue King and her daughter Marilyn got thier reservations
for thier Miami hotel room for the Holi 78 event.

They were excited to read that they were staying at the fabulous
Copa Cabana Hotel in Miami.
They sang that Barry Manilow song 'Copa Cabana' for a month.
Their jaws dropped as they were dropped off sweating at the
REAL Copa Cabana that is a typical Miami run down pit.

The bellman takes them to thier room and it is a disgusting
hot room with visible roaches. They called the front desk
trying to bail out of the room or hotel but no go.
The bellman is still standing there for a tip and they
close the door on him.

Their only revenge was coming back from holi and getting
color on everything.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:49:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: magic?
Message:
He was impersonating a cop and also a huge person.

I tried impersonating a huge person for about a month once but couldn't pull it off. This guy sounds serious.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:16:10 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: grammar perfection
Message:
>I tried impersonating a huge person for about a month once but couldn't pull it off. This guy sounds serious.

What thing were you trying to pull off?

You have eloquently pointed out the perils of the ambiguity which arises out of messy compound sentences in written communication.
I will try to be more precise in the future.
Practice, practice ...

The actual events were quite an adventure not easily conveyed by a few words.
I was attempting to relate to Gail that I also have been through some hitch-hiking ordeals.

Gday,
CD
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:37:02 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: CD
Subject: rhetoric detection
Message:
CD baby,
What was the thread actually about?
Or do you give a shit?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:56:43 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: rhetoric detection
Message:
>What was the thread actually about?

Woe is me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 03:12:08 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Woe is you
Message:
Don't they have like a premie forum, dude?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 14:16:39 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: you
Message:
>Don't they have like a premie forum, dude?

You're a jerk!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 09:52:29 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
...but no one has succeeded in getting people to stick with a discrete topic within a thread. I know it's frustrating when you don't have much time to read, but it's probably going to be even MORE frustrating trying to get people to do stay on topic. Same with off-topic posts. Getting people to change the title or labelling the posts off topic is about all you can hope for!

For some reason (!) this particular bunch of people is quite rebellious and doesn't like to follow rules (myself included). It's hard enough getting people to stick with the two big rules that we actually have (no threats and no posting under someone else's name).

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:17:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
...but no one has succeeded in getting people to stick with a discrete topic within a thread.

You know, for a second there, Katie, I thought you were going to say 'Many have tried to communicate with Chris but to no avail' or something like that. Funny.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:21:50 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jim and Katie
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
You know, for a second there, Katie, I thought you were going to say 'Many have tried to communicate with Chris but to no avail' or something like that. Funny.

Funny. I thought so too.

eb
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:43:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
Funny. I thought so too.

eb


Aha, alas, eb, it will be a cold day in hell, I'm afraid.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:29:29 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
and Michael succeeded.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:52:25 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Many have tried...
Message:
Don't worry I wasn't trying to communicate with CD. I was just trying to enjoy not bothering to. It's a detachment thing.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:14:15 (EDT)
From: Pranam
Email: seekthep_o_love@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: update on search for Bob scott
Message:
I am hoping that someone knows my father and that they will contact me at my e-mail address above his name is Bob
Scott My name is Pranam Ottolina I am 20 yrs of age my mothers name is Molita Ottolina and we used to live in Denver.They both are Premies. A contact name that other people may know is My step father Roy Tompkins who also lived in denver then moved to Santa Monica, CA.or is there such ting as a premie white pages or something like that.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:09:56 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: um...
To: Pranam
Subject: update on search for Bob scott
Message:
I suggest you try a search in the white pages of the Internet. Look up 'People search', or 'find people' and you will have some success. You can do a reverse search if you have a phone number, btw.

RT
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:17:22 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Pranam
Subject: update on search for Bob scott
Message:
Hello Pranam,

Do you have any siblings? And was your mother originally from El Salvador?

eb
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:40:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pranam
Subject: Reader's ad service
Message:
I just sent an e-mail to Pranam telling him about Brian's new 'Reader's Ad' service. You can put almost any kind of advertisement you want on the site for nothing - anything from selling your old sarong to looking for family and friends.

It's at
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/ads.htm

or just look under 'What's New'.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:06:50 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Reader's ad service
Message:
Still no bloody takers for my free photos or sarong Katie! Hmmm, anybody got any tips for how to make my items more attractive to the discerning premie customer?

TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:41:52 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Pranam
Subject: Pranam
Message:
Dear Pranam,
I tried to email you and it wouldn't go through, I put underscores were the spaces are? You could drop me an email and then I can reply. I am sorry when you emailed me before, for some reason, I thought it was hotmail advertising until I noticed your email address last night. Please email me.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:32:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone know David Icke?
Message:
At a barbecue yesterday it turns out some of my friends have gotten into this weirdo, David Icke. Any of you English people know him? Former football (soccer) star turned conspiracy nut. The leant me this one book by him and I realized that he bases some of his rant on the Protocols of Zion ( an ugly fake document purportedly stating the secret agenda of the jewish conspiracy for world domination).

Anyway, the guy's sick. He's dangerous to the extent that anyone would take him seriously and I'm obviously eagre to quickly debunk him for my naive friends out at the lake. God, what I don't do for people!

Anyone?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone know David Icke?
Message:
David Icke? yup, I Love him. Start trashing Dave and you'll have me to contend with, Heller. First Chomsky, and now this... I am so disappointed, Jim.

Icke is very famous in the UK as (wait for for it) the former numero uno snooker commentator for the BBC in the nineteen eighties. Then something happened. One day in 1990 he appeared on the nation's favourite early evening chat show, chewing a toffee and dressed in a turquoise tracksuit, and announced that he was (wait for it) The Lord .

Wogan (interviewer): So how did it feel to discover you were the Lord?

Icke: I was gobsmacked.

He wrote a book 'The Truth Vibrations' which is all about truth vibrations. He now lives in Ryde, Isle of Wight, and writes mad letters to the local papers about the quality of refereeing in local schools soccer matches.

If you'd like any more about this, I have an exchange of letters between myself and the Bishop of Liverpool in which I enquired on the C of E's position on whether the Second Coming was really supposed to happen on prime time TV, and whether Icke really was the lord. (He isn't, apparently.)
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:02:03 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Anyone know David Icke?
Message:
Hi Nigel & Jim
You forgot to say that he was also the leader of the Green Party and led them to their largest vote ever. I also was a great fan and saw the Wogan show as well as some others he appeared on after he became the Lord. Before this he was the main snooker commentator - which at the time got millions of viewers. After coming out as a Messiah he did not appear on the snooker shows too often.
Cheers,
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:39:32 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: seymour
Subject: Anyone know David Icke?
Message:
Now this is embarrassing, Seymour,

I too was really a fan of Icke's back in the days when he was about the only high-profile Green in this country. I actually joined the Green party in the late eighties, as I imagined them to be far more radical and progressive than Kinnock's Labour. I used to regard him as one of the good guys.

I have some other letters from when I wrote to the BBC to complain about their sacking of Icke from his commentary slot for what appeared to be political reasons. They wrote back saying it wasn't political at all. Then Icke left the party and became God. I wrote another letter to the Beeb saying sorry for complaining since the guy is obviously barking.

They wrote back and said thanks.

I never did like snooker much anyway.

Cheers,
Nigel.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 05:24:35 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone know David Icke?
Message:
David Icke is/was a total joke. Actually he was a bit of light relief in a society where many far more sinister fake gurus lurk like praying mantis' on sincere seekers. He was so transparently barking mad.

As you so rightly said, he was only a danger to the extent that anyone would take him seriously. Until your post I thought that event was the remotest possibility. Your friends must be seriously sad.
Icke was literally laughed out of town a while ago in the the UK. I thought he provided light entertainment actually. The guy was a TV sports commentator!
They say a prophet is never recognised in his own land!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:28:04 (EDT)
From: PaulR
Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com
To: JIM
Subject: Protocols of Zion
Message:
I know for sure that That document was regarding a plan from a group of (pseudo)'Freemasons' to control various aspects of world culture and economics. (YES I HAVE ACTUALLY READ IT).

It seems funny to me that Jewish people are often so ticked of by being falsely associated with it.

Surely the Old Testament is much more of an indictment of Jewish behaviour than the statements in PoZ.

This is a little outside of ex-premie subject. You may reply via E-Mail to me if you like.

regards PaulR
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:17:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PaulR
Subject: Come now, Paul
Message:
I know for sure that That document was regarding a plan from a group of (pseudo)'Freemasons' to control various aspects of world culture and economics. (YES I HAVE ACTUALLY READ IT).
It seems funny to me that Jewish people are often so ticked of by being falsely associated with it.



Paul,

What in the world are you talking about? The 'Protocols' are as fake as Maharaji, and extremely pernicious. Below are three links outlining the sordid history of this charade. And how can you possibly say you're surprised by jewish reaction to this garbage? It's a fake program for jewish domination of the world, idiot!

protocol fraud 1

protocol fraud 2

protocol fraud 3

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/protocols.html
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 01:35:40 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: PaulR
Subject: Protocols of Zion
Message:
Sheesh, Paul, the Protocols of Zion are the biggest pile of crap since the Aquarian Gospel of the Christ!! It is anti-semitic claptrap. And to claim that the OT is a stronger indictment; I don't know about you, boyo! The OT (I prefer the term Hebrew scriptures) is a collection of stories about people and how they understood their world and their understanding of God. It is about people first, a race and religion second. Hitler used the PoZ, man; OF COURSE THE JEWS ARE TICKED OFF BY BEING FALSELY ASSOCIATED WITH IT!!!! This is the silliest thing I've read this week.
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