Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 20

From: Jul 29, 1998

To: Aug 8, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:41:04 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:02:56 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:57:51 (EDT)
______Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:54:28 (EDT)
________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:15:32 (EDT)
________CD -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:33:13 (EDT)
__________Rick -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:58:40 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:14 (EDT)
______________Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:32:34 (EDT)
____________Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:26:42 (EDT)
______________CD -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:40:47 (EDT)
________________Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:20:45 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:14:22 (EDT)
____________________Jim -:- You WISH, Chris, you wish -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:54:39 (EDT)
____________________John -:- UN- believable -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:33:47 (EDT)
________________Rick -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:16:04 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:25:37 (EDT)
____________________Rick -:- Knowledge -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:16:23 (EDT)
______________________CD -:- Knowledge -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:13:07 (EDT)
________________________Katie -:- Mental health professionals -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:42:46 (EDT)
________________________M.B -:- Knowledge -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:25:55 (EDT)
__________________________m.b -:- Knowledge -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:33:10 (EDT)
____________________________Gerry -:- Could M.B. really be... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:36:45 (EDT)
______________________________Jim -:- Could M.B. really be... -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:40:23 (EDT)
____________________________Runamok -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:33:28 (EDT)
__________________________Gerry -:- Dick Danger -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:14:54 (EDT)
__________________________Runamok -:- Hate to hate -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:17:00 (EDT)
________________________Jim -:- Coming to take you away, CD! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:30:39 (EDT)
__________________________CD -:- Come to think of it -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:34:57 (EDT)
____________________________Jim -:- Come to think of it -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:04:04 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Say it clearly, Chris -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:43:49 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Are you offering, Chris? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:39 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- Are you offering, Chris? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:15:20 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:58:47 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:54:41 (EDT)
________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:08:16 (EDT)
__________Laura -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:25:46 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:40:27 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:58:32 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:26:34 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- to Mike, slightly off topic -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:33:48 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- to Mike, slightly off topic -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:59:16 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:35:08 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:13:16 (EDT)
________________Nigel -:- My deepest wish -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:37:42 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- My deepest wish -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 10:53:31 (EDT)
________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:23:54 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:42:02 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:12:55 (EDT)
__________m.b -:- Knowledge -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:36:00 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:04:14 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:32:02 (EDT)
______CD -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:45:21 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:00:10 (EDT)
__________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:34:38 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Be honest, Bobby -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:38:19 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Be honest, Bobby -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:44:18 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Be honest, Bobby -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:44 (EDT)
__________________Bobby -:- Be honest, Jim -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EDT)
____________________M.B -:- Be honest, Jim -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:16:05 (EDT)
____________seymour -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:17:08 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:29:51 (EDT)
______________bill -:- Knowledge????? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:59:58 (EDT)
________________Bobby -:- Knowledge????? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:52:33 (EDT)
__________________bill -:- A smiling child was near -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:40:02 (EDT)
________________seymour -:- Knowledge????? -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:37:25 (EDT)
__________________Bill -:- Seymour Light -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:01:14 (EDT)
________nigel -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:25:37 (EDT)
________VP -:- A man's limits -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:46:22 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- A man's limits -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:38:05 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- A man's limits -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:18:05 (EDT)
______________Mike -:- A man's limits -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:05:13 (EDT)
________________Bobby -:- A man's limits -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:43:38 (EDT)
____________CD -:- A man's limits -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:21:01 (EDT)
__________CD -:- Superman -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:41:07 (EDT)
______Mike -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:49:27 (EDT)
________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:08 (EDT)
______Rick -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:56 (EDT)
________Katie -:- difficult experiences -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:15:02 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Chris is clueless -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:21:42 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- Chris is clueless -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:22:38 (EDT)
__________Nigel -:- Chris is clueless -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:45:22 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Chris is clueless -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:52:14 (EDT)
__________CD -:- Chris is OK -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:42:42 (EDT)
____________nigel -:- Heisenberg Goedel -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 23:05:49 (EDT)
______________CD -:- the realm of limits -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:07:15 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- That's SO naive, Chris -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:47:03 (EDT)
________________Carol -:- Alright! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:41:21 (EDT)
__________________Carol -:- I'm ignorant and naive! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:48:20 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Chris tells himself he's OK -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:08:39 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- reply to Chris and request -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:32:44 (EDT)
________Bobby -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:41:33 (EDT)
__Carol -:- Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT)

David -:- A link to the Premie Forum -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:30:46 (EDT)

seymour -:- New Age Pensioner -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:57:16 (EDT)
__Katie -:- Re Premie Forum -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:55:35 (EDT)
__Laura -:- New Age Pensioner -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:26:14 (EDT)
____Katie -:- to Laura -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EDT)
______Laura -:- to Laura -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:00:45 (EDT)
________bill -:- to Laura -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:51:15 (EDT)
__________Laura -:- Pollyanna reply -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:41:31 (EDT)
__________Gail -:- To Bill -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:47:33 (EDT)
________Mike -:- to Laura -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:24:18 (EDT)
__________Laura -:- Your kind words -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:46:55 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Your kind words -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:08:39 (EDT)
______________VP -:- Mike, I like your posts -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:42:40 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Mike, I like your posts -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 02:41:46 (EDT)
____Bobby -:- New Age Pensioner -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:44:51 (EDT)
______Laura -:- Reply re Science of Mind -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:57:47 (EDT)
________PaulR -:- New Age Pensioner. -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:16:42 (EDT)

Nigel -:- What is this forum? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:13:05 (EDT)
__seymour -:- What is this forum? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:50:25 (EDT)
__Katie -:- What is this other forum? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:20:51 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- 10) The Truth Commission -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:37:14 (EDT)
____JW -:- Thanks, Nigel -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:09:29 (EDT)
______Nigel -:- Thanks, Nigel -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:35:25 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Thanks, Nigel -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:28:56 (EDT)
__Carol -:- What is this forum? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:17:43 (EDT)
____nigel -:- What is this forum? -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:22:54 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- What is this forum? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:36:46 (EDT)

Gail -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:11:56 (EDT)
__seymour -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 08:03:03 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:45:18 (EDT)
__Carol -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:01:32 (EDT)
__VP -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:19:35 (EDT)
____eb -:- Quotable Quotes -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:43:46 (EDT)

Paula -:- I missed you! -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:03:10 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- I missed you! -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:07:33 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- I missed you! -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:08:53 (EDT)
__Katie -:- I missed you! -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:25:19 (EDT)

Paul M -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 01:58:09 (EDT)
__Gail -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:24:22 (EDT)
____Paul M -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:45:14 (EDT)
______Mike -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:35:30 (EDT)
__Paula -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:52:54 (EDT)
____Paul M -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:14:21 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:51:30 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- My thoughts: contradictions -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:05:16 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- My thoughts: contradictions -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:12:00 (EDT)
______Nigel -:- My thoughts: contradictions -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:12:28 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Your thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:49:02 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Your thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:39:59 (EDT)
______VP -:- Your thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:07:37 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Your thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:43:55 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Your thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:44:34 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Katie's thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:34:52 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Runamok's thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:26:56 (EDT)
__________M.B -:- Thoughts runamok -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:54:09 (EDT)
____________Runamok -:- Thoughts runamok -:- Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:16:54 (EDT)
__Katie -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:38:07 (EDT)
__JW -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:47:50 (EDT)
____Carol -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:47:39 (EDT)
______JW -:- My thoughts -:- Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:54:15 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:41:04 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I am new to this site and to this forum. Is anyone doing other meditation, or K meditation? Has years of meditation changed anyone? Anyone realized themselves? Anyone bypassing mid-life crisis because their meditation is so great? Anyone Sure of anything?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:02:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi Laura. Interesting questions.

Is anyone doing other meditation, or K meditation?

I don't and never have done any type of meditation other than K. I don't practice K anymore. It doesn't do much outside of take up time I'd rather spend doing other things.

Has years of meditation changed anyone?

I don't believe so, no. I received Knowledge 18 years ago. I only practiced intermittently. I think just growing up has changed me.

Anyone realized themselves?

Actually, I think I realized myself before I received K. When I was 18 I had a pretty good bead on who I was, then I fell into a deep state of depression and lost all sense of myself. This went on for years and years. It was in this state that I received K. It didn't change anything. Coming to terms with my alcoholism and drug abuse has given me a better understanding of myself then K ever did.

Anyone bypassing mid-life crisis because their meditation is so great?

Meditation was never so great. I'm 45. I think I've got a couple of years before I hit a mid-life crisis. Should be interesting.

Anyone Sure of anything?

Only that I've got to die and pay taxes.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:57:51 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Is anyone doing other meditation, or K meditation?

I have continued a more or less basic practice of meditation since receiving K in 1971. However, I do mostly 'name' and 'nectar'. My experience with these have been very succesful.

Has years of meditation changed anyone?

I feel I have changed in some subtle and some not so subtle ways. Other ways not. I consider meditation one of the greatest gifts I have in this life.

Anyone realized themselves?

I believe there are levels of realization. Realization comes in different ways. I don't think 'realization' happens in the ways we thought it would, at least in most of the ways I have thought or have heard in premie (or other) circles.

Anyone bypassing mid-life crisis because their meditation is so great?

In my opinion, mid-life crisis is a phenomenon local to our culture. Our culture has implicit values of success. When we don't measure up to these success values, we have personal mid-life crisis. This is probably not all mid-life crisis is about, lots of people might have other ideas.

I think that working things out, like emotions and personal baggage (karma) is important. Meditation doesn't really work these things out. Meditation is a tool. IMO a powerful tool.

Anyone Sure of anything?

No. However in my opinion, there is nothing to be sure of.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:54:28 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Bobby, please believe that I am sincere.

What do you mean by saying that word and nectar medication is 'successful'?

Premie culture, when I was 'active' did not include working things out, things like emotional baggage or karma. Meditation was supposed to do it All.

Give it to GMJ. GMJ said to give all the baggage, the worries to him - not to work it out. I'm 47 years old and haven't worked out a thing since i first met gmj. Boy - am i in trouble now!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:15:32 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I guess you had a different experience with knowledge than I did then. I guess I wasn't a fully successful premie.

I never experienced the full boat with Maharaji. I always was interested in the variety of spiritual teachings and that included other ways. I read voluminously even while in the ashram. I was in for only a year.

For a time I 'gave my life to Maharaji' but that was only on a decisional basis for a time. Behind that, at least for me, was a giving of my life to the Highest Power. I thought for a time that might be Maharaji but I really didn't think that for extended periods.

In India, in 1971 I checked out other teachings to some extent. Even while in the ashram I checked out other paths.

Primarily what sustained and developed what I consider my spiritual practice were the events around Maharaji -- the people, the spiritual context, the meditation, the satsang. I haven't been a premie in a long time, since the early 80's at least. Even then I wouldn't consider myself a 'full-premie' as I didn't feel the depths of devotion or practice the levels of dedication that others around here seem to have.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:33:13 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
> I'm 47 years old and haven't worked out a thing since i first met gmj. Boy - am i in trouble now!

I am also 47.

I have been listening to M over the years and have heard him say over and over again that meditation is not a cure for daily problems.
What meditation can do is give you a feeling of the true importance of your existence.
A bit like the feeling you get looking at a star filled sky on a beautiful evening.
The point has always been that the feeling of peace exists inside each person.
Meditation is the tool to dig for that peace.

You are not in trouble.
You are alive and have problems.
You certainly can work on your daily problems and solve some of them.
You can also spend some time doing meditation to feel the peace that exists inside.
The thing that is looking out of your eyes.
Love is a four letter word but real Love can not be described.
It can only be experienced.

CD
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:58:40 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
No CD, you dumbkopf, not daily problems, big problems like emotional problems, personality problems, relationship problems, career problems, etc. Maharaji stressed repeatedly over the years that practicing knowledge would release people from their 'karma'. In one satsang, he said, 'Put your problems in your back pocket and just practice knowledge'. He discouraged his followers from dealing with life and demanded that they devote themselves entirely to him. Who are you trying to fool?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:14 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Chris - I have to agree with Rick. Maybe M says this NOW, but when I was a premie in the seventies, practicing Knowledge was supposed to fix everything in your life. Maharaji said this, not just premies, although plenty of premies said it too.

If you practiced K and still had problems, it was your own fault for not doing enough meditation, service and satsang, or for not doing it the right way. Also, M definitely told people NOT to pay too much attention to their close relationships - these were supposed to 'take care of themselves' if you practiced Knowledge.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:32:34 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Thank you for listening and understanding. Yes, Knowledge was supposed to be the end all, and now, mid-life I get to start all over again.

You wrote 'Chris - I have to agree with Rick. Maybe M says this NOW, but when I was
a premie in the seventies, practicing Knowledge was supposed to fix
everything in your life. Maharaji said this, not just premies, although
plenty of premies said it too.
If you practiced K and still had problems, it was your own fault for not
doing enough meditation, service and satsang, or for not doing it the
right way. Also, M definitely told people NOT to pay too much attention
to their close relationships - these were supposed to 'take care of
themselves' if you practiced Knowledge. '
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:26:42 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Rick & CD and all
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Oh Rick, thank you. thank you for hearing what i was saying. Yes, that is what GJM said and I listened. It was very easy not to deal with any problems - I had K, that made me special, above earthly details. Knowledge was Everything and I opened my heart like he said and didn't deal with my Life.

No CD, you dumbkopf, not daily problems, big problems like emotional
problems, personality problems, relationship problems, career problems,
etc. Maharaji stressed repeatedly over the years that practicing
knowledge would release people from their 'karma'. In one satsang, he
said, 'Put your problems in your back pocket and just practice
knowledge'. He discouraged his followers from dealing with life and
demanded that they devote themselves entirely to him. Who are you trying
to fool?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:40:47 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>Oh Rick, thank you. thank you for hearing what i was saying. Yes, that is what GJM said and I listened.

More confirmation on what you think you were supposed to think will not help you out.
I have also wanted to believe in words that were said.
The fact is that the experience of K has always been promoted as the place to find the ultimate answer.
Of course as humans we always want to cling on to something that has an explanation.
The fact is that we exist without any explanation in the middle of a universe (one-word) without explanation.
Solving our daily problems, health and emotional glitches is certainly important.
So is experiencing the fundamental feeling of who we are.
To realize that we have and will not have a proven explanation to cling on to is both scary and a necessary realization to move forward.

CD
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:20:45 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
No. you don't get it. Confirmation on what I was told and dutifully learned long ago IS helping me out. I forget why I think the way I do. I did not program myself. I was programmed. I listened to satsang faithfully, every night, every day, every conversation with fellow premies, for years. If someone can now remind me that yes, you were told to think in a certain way, my dead brain cells wake up and I can maybe start to think for myself.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:14:22 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>If someone can now remind me that yes, you were told to think in a certain way, my dead brain cells wake up and I can maybe start to think for myself.

Your brain cells don't seem to be dead.
Give yourself more credit.
You write readable messages.
Do think for yourself, by all means.

In another post you wrote that you have not been around premies for 20 years.
I was also around in 1972 going to programs.
I remember that the ultimate source for answers was always said to be the practice of Knowledge.
There were certainly words presented in Maharajis talks but they were never given the stature of ultimate truth.
The point has always been to find an answer in a place inside yourself.
Your own answer.

CD
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:54:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You WISH, Chris, you wish
Message:
There were certainly words presented in Maharajis talks but they were never given the stature of ultimate truth.

First of all, the way you talk about this -- so wooden, so aawkwardly passive voiced -- gives the distinct impression that you'd almost like to distance Maharaji as far as possible form those darned 'words presented'. Chris, HE said the words. Why do you write like this?

Secondly, and more importantly, you are a big, fucking liar. Maharaji was the satguru and his command was called agya. It was the most serious blueprint, the ONLY blueprint we had for life. It onlty came one way, through his mouth. He never turned it off, either. He didn't have to put on his 'agya crown' or soemthing, sit in a special chair, say a speical phrase. The meter was always ticking. That is, there was never a time when his words were anything BUT the ultimate truth.

Examply -- when Maharaji said, at the '75(?) Orlando program, that premies should go to satsang every night, unless they were doing service, and that by that he meant the organized programs put on by DLM, no other, HE HAD SPOKEN. He didn't have to say 'listen to me on this one, folks'. It was understood.

No, you're just a liar and you know it.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 17:33:47 (EDT)
From: John
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: UN- believable
Message:
'There were certainly words presented in Maharajis talks but they were never given the stature of ultimate truth.'

CD:
This is an unbelievable sentence!
You take the cake!!
You are an excellent example for me of how far a premie has to go to rationalize following the ex guru.

What the hell does it mean? his words don't have the 'stature of ultimate truth'? Do you think anyone outside of the cult will have any idea what that kind of statement means? or care?
Is there non-ultimate truth? Or less than ultimate truth? Isn't the truth the truth?
And you are suggesting that M's words were somehow not meant to be taken as truth? Or as less than ultimate truth? as opposed to ultimate truth?
Wow!
Conversation with premies, how to reach new levels of complete and utter absurdity.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:16:04 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Look CD, it's very simple... maharaji said many years ago, and I'm not quoting verbatim but this is very close: 'Suffering is no good. We need a hovercraft to fly above the suffering. This knowledge is like that hovercraft.' It's very simple what that means. You are either very dishonest or very dumb.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:25:37 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>You are either very dishonest or very dumb.

Maybe you are confused.

The feeling of your existence is certainly important.
It is also different than your daily problems.
Many daily problems do arise because people do not feel the good feeling of their life and seek to achieve satisfaction by all means possible.
Honesty and respect for other people becomes a faded dream.
To succeed in the crisis of the moment and achieve success becomes the driving force.
Love becomes a tool and a joke, not a source of motivation.

Have you ever read stories of people who were in terrible external circumstances such as a concentration camp and yet they found an oasis in themselves that allowed them to survive the ordeal.
Yes, they found the hovercraft.

Recently I remember M saying something to the effect that our daily lives are like walking in a mine-field.
The mine-field and the oasis do both exist.

CD
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:16:23 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
CD,
Have you ever been to a mental health professional? The reason I ask is that I honestly think you might be diagnosed with something serious. You're really really disconnected - your thoughts and feelings are dissociated to the point that you can't communicate. Are you emotionally close with anyone? Even a good friend? Any family? What was it like growing up?

Your expressions remind me of the survivors of the Heaven Gate cult. When they were interviewed and asked what they felt about a particular incident or event, they were unable to answer. They would translate it into an idea that was separate from a human response. This is what you're doing here.

People who survived the holocaust and similar events made it through by the skin of their teeth, not an oasis. They suffered immensely from the residual trauma and there was no quick fix, no magic solution.

Is this what CD did as a child? The stress of feeling was just too much so he detached and 'found that oasis'? Chris, it isn't an oasis, it's an early death. Get some help.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:13:07 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>Have you ever been to a mental health professional? The reason I ask is that I honestly think you might be diagnosed with something serious.

Your point of view is actually quite dangerous.
It is the foundation of repression and intolerance.

CD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:42:46 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Mental health professionals
Message:
Dear Chris - You seem to imply that there is something 'wrong' or 'bad' about people who have consulted psychiatrists. I think EVERYONE could benefit from visiting a competent (albeit hard to find) mental health professional at least once in their lives. I also believe that Rick was being sincere. If he wasn't on target, then you should let him know in a nicer way.

To quote J.D. Salinger 'This is the Kali Yuga, buddy, the Iron Age. Anyone over sixteen without an ulcer is a goddamn spy.'

Regards from
Katie
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:25:55 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I agree CD. Rick , Gerry , Jim , Mick and quite a few others are DANGEROUS and especially so as they are not aware of it. I HATE THEIR HATE!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:33:10 (EDT)
From: m.b
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Katie , you are such a gopie . such a sorry excuse for an
individual. you worship idiots . you are brainwashed.
you tippie toe about ; careful to not upset those brain-
damaged mother fuckers . you are supporting the losers.
perhaps it would be cheaper to get group psychiatry : you
and the deranged ones you adore so much.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:36:45 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Could M.B. really be...
Message:
KEITH????????????

Same (ahem) style of punctuation (those annoying spaces and improper usage), and same fertile imagination. Just a theory...
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:40:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Could M.B. really be...
Message:
I don't know but if he starts talking about 'the breath'. Well, once again, notice how Mel and Bill never post at exactly the same time? Hmm...
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:33:28 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: m.b
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
If you insulted a cook in a restaurant, would you then sit down and finish the meal? Katie maintenances the site. She works here. Have the intelligence to show a modicum of respect or have the glimmer of humman decency to leave. It's an ex-premie site. There really is a premie site. Why don't you post there? If we want to read your posts we will.
I'll bet you rationalise breaking M's agya about the internet BECAUSE you trash this place. 'I'm trashing the place for you Great Gooma.' That's the cultist mentality that does lead to violence.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:14:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Dick Danger
Message:
Mel baby,

This warms the cockles of my heart.

I agree CD. Rick , Gerry , Jim , Mick and quite a few others are DANGEROUS and especially so as they are not aware of it. I HATE THEIR HATE!

I must say that my sixth grade teacher, Sister Angelus, was cleary prophetic when she said I was a ''dangerous person.'' But MB, doesn't this just mean it ain't my fault? Don't you feel at least a little love in that big boring heart of yours for my pathetic dangerousness?

Katie , you are such a gopie . such a sorry excuse for an
individual. you worship idiots . you are brainwashed.
you tippie toe about ; careful to not upset those brain-
damaged mother fuckers . you are supporting the losers.
perhaps it would be cheaper to get group psychiatry : you
and the deranged ones you adore so much.


THIS is WONDERFUL, Mel. You finally put that nasty katie in her place. I'm sure she just flung herself onto her bed, gasping out heart rending sobs of remorse and sorrow. I wonder if Peter will ever be able to console her.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:17:00 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Hate to hate
Message:
Hate to hate your hate too. Gotta run.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:30:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Coming to take you away, CD!
Message:
Chris,

What's your address again? I've got the guys on the radio. They're driving around your block but they can't find the address. Is there a car or something out front you can describe?

Also, Chris, don't forget to wear loose fitting clothes. And, if you can, forget about lace-up shoes. We've had a lot of problems with them.

No, seriously, Chris --- hey, relax fella, I was just kidding. Chris? Chris? You okay? Hey, guy, I was just kidding, that's all. No one's coming to take you away, Chris. Not the California Mental Health Department, not even Ted Patrick (who's got the money?). The only guys that might come a knocking are people from PAM ('Excuse me, are you the same CD who's been posting on that anti-Maharaji site for the last few years?'). If they do, Chris, and you can get to a phone, give me a call. We'll do a habeus corpus and get you out in time for the next big video event.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:34:57 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come to think of it
Message:
>are you the same CD who's been posting on that anti-Maharaji site for the last few years?

How would you know?
What have you been doing the last couple years - g?

>No one's coming to take you away, Chris.

Probably not.
Several people need me to finish up computer projects.
DNS, Exchange, RAS, Proxy Servers, security to start with.
The SQL7 replication project this weekend should be an ordeal.

You are real lucky that you have a place to practice with your band.

CD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:04:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Come to think of it
Message:
You are real lucky that you have a place to practice with your band.

And you, Chris, are real lucky that you have power steering.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:43:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Say it clearly, Chris
Message:
Chris,

Laura said:

Yes, that is what GJM said and I listened.

to which you commented:

I have also wanted to believe in words that were said.

Why not quit hiding behind the passive voice, Mr. Trickie Dickie? Why not say it clearly:

I have also wanted to believe Maharaji when he said something.?

It's a LOT clearer, Chris, and it makes your point SIO much better, don't you think?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Are you offering, Chris?
Message:
You are not in trouble.
You are alive and have problems.
You certainly can work on your daily problems and solve some of them.


Chris,

This is very insightful and provocative. I'm going to have to think about this for a while. Just the way you put it, yes you're right, we DO have problems and yes, we certainly can work on them. I like the part where you say we can 'solve' them. I've never really thought about it that way.

Tell me, Chris, do you think one problem a person could have is that they trusted their guru too much? Can you recall when... well, let's take a guru. How about Maharaji for example? Can you remember when Maharaji would encourage people to not concentrate on their familes, relationships, careers, that kind of thing? Does any of that ring a bell, good buddy? What I wonder about is whether a person's problem could be as a result of following that program?

You know, Chris, to be fair, Maharaji probably doesn't have to worry about his retirement, let alone old age. Yeah, I'm talking just plain, old financially. But Chris, don't you think there are a bunch of premies who can't say the same? And I wonder, do you think that some of them might be in a real pickle because they thought that somehow Maharji would take care of them? That it was okay to just drift from job to job, never make any real long-term plans, that kind of thing, because they interpreted Maharaji's satsang accordingly?

What do you think about all this Chris? Yes, feeling your life is a wonderful thing. Here's an analogue. I can go to a beautiful movie or concert and experience all sorts of wonderful emotions. Peace, love, you name it. (By the way, Chris, love is an emotion. Did you know that? Yeah, I just looked it up. Takes just a bit of the mystery away, doesn't it?) Anyway, so you come out of the concert, turn off the CD, climb out of her bed, even, but then you've still got those pesky 'daily problems', eh? Now, you tell me Chris, do you think thqat those problems might ever arise from someone following a guru?

Love you like crazy, bro',

Jim
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:15:20 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you offering, Chris?
Message:
Jim, You don't find love in the dictionary! (Couldn't resist!)
Love you, Carol
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:58:47 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hello flowers, hello trees...

We are stardust, we are golden.

A butterfly's wing is an admiral thing.

Good things come to those who wait.

Time flies like an arrow

Fruit flies like a banana

It's nice out today

Put it away, someone's coming...

Nigel
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:54:41 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Bobby: come on and answer the questions! Except for the first question, you didn't answer ANYTHING. Why is it SO HARD for you to say, 'I DON'T KNOW?' You are definitely a Clinton-striker. You have a valuable ability to say alot of words without pinning yourself to anything. I'll ask three questions, here they are, unexpurgated and in full:

ARE YOU A REALIZED SOUL? ARE YOU IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF SAMAHDI (nirvana, whatever)? ARE YOU IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH THE GOD?

Now, doggone it, all I want to hear for each question is a SIMPLE YES or NO. Just YES or NO. NO justifications, no explanations (I am intelligent enough to interpret yes or no questions). Can you do it?

This missive may sound just a bit accusatory, but I'm sick and tired of excuses and explanations. YES or NO!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:08:16 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
ARE YOU A REALIZED SOUL?

No.

ARE YOU IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF SAMAHDI (nirvana, whatever)?

No.

ARE YOU IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH THE GOD?

No.

Have I had deep and powerful experiences in and out of meditation?

Yes.

Back off Mike.

I don't know why you gotta be so goddam hostile. I did answer the questions. I was trying to be helpful. You and I are coming from two different places.

There is a lot I don't know. Sure. And I've had powerful experiences. That doesn't make me any better than you and it doesn't mean I'm not answering the questions. I experienced what I did. What am I supposed to say, they are tricks of the brain. To me they are not. Tell me, is everything you have experienced just a trick of the brain?

Do you love your wife? Do you love your kids? Have you ever been in love with anyone? Just a trick of the brain!

These are my authentic experiences. What am I supposed to say?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:25:46 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
To Mike and Bobby - There's alot of anger here. We were promised everything, the answer to it all. we now know we didn't get it, we wasted part of our precious lives and now have to get on with it. i am very sad and outraged at the same time.

When i asked my questions i was asking for 'truth' from you - as if it's as easily dispensed as candy. My original questions were just a starting point - since i haven't been around premies for over 20 years my 'speak' is early premie speak. Words like realization were part of our everyday talk. we all wanted to be realized.

My lingo didn't change with the organization - i didn't even hear of EV until recently - when my ex-husband decided to finally forward mail after about 12 years. Anyway - i don't know the answers and you all probably don't either - but i'm still searching and am very excited to learn of this forum and to be able to know who you are, what you are doing/experiencing, what you are learning, how you are coping, etc.

Welcome to my life!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:40:27 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Some answers are hard to come by. I resent others insisting that I come up with the same answers they do. Some of my answers are different than theirs and at least as well thought out.

I definitely do not have all the answers. However, I feel I've come to terms with some of the answers, at least for me. I offer to share my perspectives, nothing more. I've my whole life into what I see as my spiritual path and it has cost me. That doesn't make me right and it doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't jibe with the supposed absolute truth of many others. It is what it is. On the whole, I have no regrets. I can't speak for anyone else but me.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:58:32 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Laura: I can't speak for Bobby, but I can say, 'Not to worry!' These kinds of exchanges occur here with some regularity. I consider them to be healthy and natural (in my opinion, of course). Again, in my opinion, one of the most damaging aspects of having been a premie is our inability to discern truth. Everything becomes half-truisms, ill defined and incorrect (e.g. answering a simple question with another question) . This is a habit WE ALL have to break (me included). Forcing ourselves into small confrontations to get a straight answer helps. You know, some things ARE 'black or white.' M's thought process would make EVERYTHING 'a grey area.' Thank you, though, for your caring response to our outburst. ;-)

Mike
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:26:34 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Bobby: I wasn't impuning any experience. But don't you think you have been practicing long enough to experience thos things that I asked about? There are some that have been practicing faithfully for MANY, MANY years and are no further along than you. No, not one iota further. Don't you consider this strange? I do. Why is it that NO ONE except M has realized the knowledge? I know I've said it before, but as a savior, he sucks. After nearly 30 years, he hasn't had a single person 'master' the knowledge. I don't make fun of, nor necessarily disbelieve, anyone's PERSONAL experiences. Only YOU know for sure. That's as it should be. All I'm saying is that M has done NOTHING to further your path, wha ever that may be. In fact, I consider him to have been the biggest impediment in my life.

Now I will answer my own questions that I asked you (somewhat modified). I'm in danger of receiving an intense flaming here, so at least read this one:

Have I ever experience samahdi, the clear white light, or light brighter than a million suns: YES

Did I merge with it: NO, came close, but no cigar.

Did I communicate with GOD: YES, It was the most powerfully intense experience I've ever had in my life.

Did it happen more than once: YES!!!

Did this happen during my years as a premie: NO, NOT EVEN ONCE. M had nothing to do with these experiences. They occured while I was living at the Grand Canyon, a couple of years before I met any premie.

Am I sure of the experience(s) that I had: as experiences, YES. As 'reality', NO. (this is the only grey area question of those I've asked myself). They were quite wonderful, but I can't really 'remember' them.

NOW, do I think it was phosgenes, brain-poop, etc: Probably so. I've had to be realistic with myself and come to the 'realization' that the brain is a wonderous device that is capable of things we haven't even imagined, yet. Maybe 'samahdi' is the brain's way of taking a siesta, eh?

Would I want to experience those things again: That's a silly question, why do you think I RAN after M with so much vigor?
But that part of my life is over. I will NOT surrender the reigns of my life to ANYONE else.

OK Jim... kill me now!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:33:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: to Mike, slightly off topic
Message:
Mike - I'm not going to flame you, because I'm still 'gray' about those kinds of experiences myself. What I did want to say is that you have had a hell of an interesting life. You may have written about it on the site before, but I'm interested in your story, if you care to tell us. How did you find the site, anyway (I take it that you know Scott T. and Carol?)

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:59:16 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to Mike, slightly off topic
Message:
Katie: Thanks for noticing... he he he. Yeah, my life has been 'veddy' interesting, but weird at times. You know, the thing that pissed (and pisses) me off the most about M is that he got in the way of a perfectly good search, ya know? Now, I have to be SO pragmatic, just to keep myself in line.... he he he. Seriously, I will be writiing my bio soon. I've been very busy at work and haven't had time to think about it much. But I will do it.

Thanks for not flaming me... Since those experiences have become such a distant semi-memory, I've leaned more-and-more to the side of 'brain siesta.' Instead, I've been trying to fill my life with the 'awe' of life itself, rather than 'personalizing' nature or the universe with a god-like being. I guess that's been my anchor: Life is wonderful, it is awesome and the more I learn about it, the more awesome it becomes. It doesn't require anything else to be as wonderous as it is. It certainly doesn't require M to point that out to me (thank you very much).

YES, I know Scott T and Carol. Carol was a house-mom in the premie house I live in while I was in Portland. Scott lived there too. We drove to Pacific Palisades together to get knowledge. We stayed across the street (in a field) from the residence. I don't know if he told you (this is a secret); he dressed himself up as Krishna one night after satsang and danced in M's front yard with a premie (doing their rendition of Krishna lila). You had to be there to appreciate it, but it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen at the time. Now the funny part was when he would kick Radha's butt every time she turned around. (like I said, you had to be there...he he he). Kinda prophetic, too. Considering how M has kicked ours, eh?

I found the site while trying to look for something about another cult. I was looking for some info about 'The Way International' because a friend of mine was becoming entangled in it. I knew there was some info out there, so I checked it out and gave it to him. By the way, he steered completely clear of those guys. Anyway, that's how I found you. Even though some time had passed between quitting M and finding you, it has helped my healing process immensely. Thank You Katie.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:35:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
OK Jim... kill me now!!!

I'm not sure if that constitutes a reverse threat or something but Mike, you might have just gotten us both kicked off the page! Well, seeing how Brian's being a little generous these days, probably not. :)

Mike, I think you're talking brain poop. There, you're dead.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:13:16 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Jim: I was speaking 'figuratively' about my life-removal. (Do you think that'll fix it with Brian? he he he). I just wanted to let Bobby know that what's good for the goose, etc, etc. I, within the best of my ability, will answer any questions that are put to me in a straightforward and honest way (without embarrasment). We've all been too embarrased by the M thing already. I think I said this before, but I'm NOT embarassed by my past desire to find the 'meaning' of life. It was a good search for a good thing. I don't think anyone should be embarrassed by that. It's too bad that those who said they had the answer couldn't have been as honest as we in the search. Too bad, as well, that I was apparently searching for brain-poop......

Take Care, Jim ;-)
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:37:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mike / Jim
Subject: My deepest wish
Message:
I have spotted a correlation. Maybe a genuine one. I strikes me that the noisiest, shoutiest people round here are also among the most honest.

Mike, you wrote: NOW, do I think it was phosgenes, brain-poop, etc: Probably so. I've had to be realistic with myself and come to the 'realization' that the brain is a wonderous device that is capable of things we haven't even imagined, yet. Maybe 'samahdi' is the brain's way of taking a siesta, eh

(loved the 'brain-poop')

That's exactly how I see it, Mike. But it took so bloody long getting there as well as much owning up to myself. Too many wasted years. Wasting your life on lost causes is a good reason to be angry. Bobby isn't your target here, but we all know who really is.

Jim, you have written lots of things that don't need quoting back at you, but eight years in a fraudster's ashram and a good friend's suicide will do for a start.

Reaching the conclusion that there ain't nobody here but us chickens is not an easy place to come to. You have to be ruthlessly honest. You have to abandon all ideas about having 'progressed' one millimetre along some spiritual path. You have to scratch the lot and start again.

I no longer regret anything I have chosen to do in my life, given the circumstances surrounding me at any given moment, but - more than anything else -

I wish I had never heard of that bastard Guru Maharaj Ji!!!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 10:53:31 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: My deepest wish
Message:
Nigel: Thank You for the compliment. Yes, you are correct in saying I wasn't targeting Bobby. I was being a bit cantankerous yesterday. I just don't want anyone to go unchallenged if they feel M 'gave' them anything. Bobby can meditate all by himself without ant aid from M, thank you. Another thing that sometimes sets me off is waffling thought. I don't mean 'changing your mind.' If we no longer are able to do this, then we are lost. I'm talking about the idea that EVERYTHING important is in a 'grey area.' Neither this nor that, not up or down, not in or out, etc etc ad nauseum. You know, most things are black & white simple. But, then, I'm speaking to a member of the choir aren't I? he he he.

- Now to honesty: As I said in the post you quoted, the word 'probably' definitely applies. I haven't decided on this one yet. But I no longer believe in a 'personal' god. Pure energy... maybe. Is it conscious? hmmmm.... not sure on that one yet, either. If I ever see it again, I'll ask. But one thing is for darned sure, I don't need M to tell me one way or the other. Your (and the others on this site) sage advice and councel is much more valuable to me than that which comes from a hypocrit like M. In fact, I don't even like to talk about him and you in the same sentence, becuase it is an unavoidable insult. YUP, you know who I'm pissed at... he he he. Oh well, I'll get over it!

- I've been spending alot of time, since my retirement, in the out-of-doors. It has been WONDERFUL, to say the least. Good for the soul, ya know. This has brought me more peace than M ever did. Looking over the edge of the Grand Canyon; that's awe inspiring. Looking from a secluded place along the rim is even better. Looking for a couple of hours is unbelievable. Well, I guess you just had to be there. We've been hiking alot because we are going on a rim-to-rim hike from the North Rim to the South in October. I can't wait! That place is really special to me, but I guess you knew that after reading the previous post about 'samahdi.' No... I'm not looking for a repeat, just some peace and quiet at the bottom of the canyon for a week or so.

As always....
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:23:54 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
ARE YOU A REALIZED SOUL? ARE YOU IN A PERPETUAL STATE OF SAMAHDI (nirvana, whatever)? ARE YOU IN CONSTANT CONTACT
WITH THE GOD?

Mike, it wasn't Laura that asked me these questions, it was you. I answered her questions to the best of my ability. They may not have been the answers that you, she or anyone else was looking for. They were my answers.

I'm not sure of anything at all. Wasn't that one of Laura's questions? Why do you have such a strong need to 'pin' me to an answer? See, unlike you it seems, I got a lot of value out of my association with DLM and Maharaji. I don't think Maharaji is realized, but the whole trip was there when I needed it. Then it wasn't. I know this is true for at least some others here.

I'm not so sure as you about anything. Sorry, the experiences I have had make me this way. Are you superior that you know so much, that you have direct explanations and answers, say, to the meaning of life or the existence of God? You'll find several here are very sure of themselves. Not me.

Here's my answer to the ultimate import of Maharaji and his message:

'I don't know'.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:42:02 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Thank you, Bobby. I'm just one of those little people that like simple, but truthful, answers. As concerns M & K, that usually means a YES or NO. You provided that... thank you. I usually don't try to be so confrontational, but the military taiught me a thing or two about being straghtforward. You can't discuss a problem if it isn't well defined. The problem to me, is that NONE of M's promises were kept. NOT ONE! I'm not sure how long you were around, but he made ALOT of claims, ALOT of them. He said he would establish peace on this planet. When asked if that meant, 'in 20 years,' he said, 'no, very soon, very soon.' Well, after fighting in two conflicts and a WAR after he made that promise, I think I am qualified to call him an ABSOLUTE LIAR. He hasn't done a damn thing for the people of this world. He hasn't eased the slightest bit of pain. He hasn't stopped the killing. He hasn't done anything positive that can be OBSERVED by anyone. The organizations that were put together to perform some of the aforementioned magic were dismantled by his command. Sounds to me like he doesn't give a damn about anyone except himself. So what good is he, anyway? You are right, I AM VERY angry with him and angry with myself for having put my faith in that little weasel. Despite the fact that I'm a retired sailor, I try not to use expletives when speaking with anyone. But, when it comes to M... There aren't enough of those words in a sailor's vocabulary to describe him.

Well, now you know where I'm coming from. Again Bobby, I wasn't trying to unload on you... It's just my desire to get to the bottom of what folks are saying. Sometimes, my simple sailor brain wants to hear something definitive, not ambiguous.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:12:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Here's my answer to the ultimate import of Maharaji and his message:

'I don't know'.


Nor will you ever until you look outside of spirituality. Maharaji is a fraud. That's a simple fact I'm very comfortable expressing because, like the guy in the video, 'I know. I've got Guru Maharaj Ji's knowledge. I don't have to believe, I know'.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:36:00 (EDT)
From: m.b
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
'See, unlike you it seems, I got a lot of value out of my association with DLM and Maharaji. I don't think Maharaji is realized, but the whole trip was there when I needed it. Then it wasn't. I know this is true for at least some others here.'

I , for one .
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi Laura,
As Jerry said - good questions.

Is anyone doing other meditation, or K meditation?
I don't practice any kind of formal meditation. I never got much out of the K meditation when I was a premie and was glad to be released from the obligation to sit there morning and night when I decided to quit following M. However, I know that there are several people on this site who still do the K meditation (without being premies). I also think that there are a few people who do other kinds of meditation.

I do a little bit of guided and unguided visualization (mostly colors). I am a visual person, so this comes naturally to me and is a much easier way for me to relax and get in tune with myself than the K meditation.

Has years of meditation changed anyone? Anyone realized themselves?

No, and no for me, and as far as I know, no one on this site claims to be realized. I don't think M even talks about realizing knowledge any more.

I do feel that I have changed, but I attribute that to lots of therapy/counseling and the work and communication that my partner and I put into having a good relationship. And growing up.

Anyone bypassing mid-life crisis because their meditation is so great?

My husband thinks I am in a mid-life crisis NOW, so I'd have to say no to this question! I consider it more of a redefinition than a crisis. Because of my husband's job and the geographical area in we have to live now, I have to make a work/life change of some sort. In other words, I have to RE-figure out what I want to do with my life. I was a late bloomer anyway, so it's sort of frustrating. But I understand that this type of situation is fairly common these days.

Anyone Sure of anything?
Despite all the dreadful things that go on, there ARE loving and caring people in this world. This is very hard for me to remember sometimes, and I do get depressed about the cruelty and ignorance in the world.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:04:14 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Laura: very good questions, indeed and worth answering a CLEAR manner (as befits the question):

- NO

- NO

- NO!!!!!

- YES - I'm sure that I love this life, my wife and my kid. I definitely like the folks on this forum. They (read that you, too) are some of the most honest and caring people I have met, yet.

Bobby: see, it is easy to give a straightforward answer, if your mind is still in working order.... (e.g. post-K). Be 'brutally' honest with yourself. Try-it-you'll-like-it!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:32:02 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>>>>Bobby: see, it is easy to give a straightforward answer, if your mind is still in working order.... (e.g. post-K). Be brutally' honest with yourself. Try-it-you'll-like-it!

Mike, you know very little about me and my life. Very little. I have in fact been quite brutally honest with myself, have been through a lot of difficult learning experiences, and have interacted with deep honesty and integrity with many, many people. Sorry you assume otherwise. You don't know where I've been or what I've been through other than the little you see reflected in this forum.

I suggest that your hostile and misinformed answers say something about where you are coming from. Don't assume so much.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:45:21 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I am suprised at the attacks on what you posted.
You certainly seemed to be attempting to give honest answers.

The greatest scientists say that as they learn more they learn more about how little they know.
That is the true reality of rational thought, science and logic.
Those people with the answers to the eternal questions are truely ignorant.
There is great value in things that can be experienced.
The best things in life do not need an explanation.
We certainly will try to find explanations because we are curious.
But, a mans got to know his limits.

CD
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:00:10 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I do have to agree with you about Mike's attacks on Bobby's answers. I thought Bobby did a pretty good job answering Laura's questions. She asked for clarification on what she didn't understand. I thought some of the questions were hard to answer - like the one about 'realization'.

I will say that I think Bobby is a person who sees almost everything in relative rather than absolute terms (please correct me if I am wrong, Bobby). This makes him fairly unusual, IMHO, although my husband tends to be a little like that too. He is a scientist and will never say he's 100% certain about anything! (I've learned to use the question 'Are you 95% sure?' when asking him hard questions.)
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:34:38 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>>>I will say that I think Bobby is a person who sees almost everything in relative rather than absolute terms (please correct me if I am wrong, Bobby).

That is true, I do see most things in relative terms and it's true because my experience is that everything is relative, as in a dream. I get caught in the dream just like anyone else, but I did in fact experience something that was beyond this three-dimensional dream and that is my Near-death experience. My NDE is my reference point, my touchstone for reality.

I don't care what explanation anyone has for my experience. They are entitled to their beliefs. I've attempted to debate others here, have been accused of not wanting to 'rationally debate' and then have gotten slammed for debating anyway.

The point is that I truly believe I experienced what I did, have researched a lot, have talked with many, many people about the NDE, experiencers, and those with many explanations of what happened. I know many NDE experiencers personally, have given many, many public presentations to many groups representing a variety of views including national television and a variety of other media.

disclaimer: this does not make me a 'better' or 'worse' person! It's the truth for me! It's what I experienced! At this point, the only reason I reiterate on this forum that I have had an NDE is because I want to make clear why I believe some of the things I do.

>>>>This makes him fairly unusual, IMHO, although my husband tends to be a little like that too. He is a scientist and will never say he's 100% certain about anything! (I've learned to use the question 'Are you 95% sure?' when asking him hard questions.)

I agree with your husband Katie. To me, the mark of a real scientist and the true skeptic is this kind of uncertainty. Fundamental to the new Physics is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The observer influences the results. Nothing can be known with absolute certainty.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:38:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Be honest, Bobby
Message:
I don't care what explanation anyone has for my experience. They are entitled to their beliefs. I've attempted to debate others here, have been accused of not wanting to 'rationally debate' and then have gotten slammed for debating anyway.

Bobby, be fair. You weren't just accused of not wanting to rationally debate, you DIDN'T want to do that. You yourself said it. So don't going making it seem otherwise. In other words, no one wrongly accused you there. That's the impression you're giving.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:44:18 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Be honest, Bobby
Message:
You are wrong Jim.
Enough said.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Be honest, Bobby
Message:
You are wrong Jim.
Enough said.


No, fella, you are. And you know it too. If you want, I'll find the posts.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:10:26 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Be honest, Jim
Message:
Are those responses to the same posts that you allude to in your recent denials of your personal attacks?

I've never wanted hostile debate with you. I've said as much several times. I've been more than fair with you. You are the hostile initiator. You are the provocateur. I can prove it too.

That's it Jim. Enough. We'll not see eye-to-eye. I'll not answer you further here at this time.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:16:05 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Be honest, Jim
Message:
You are such a liar Jim.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:17:08 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi Bobby,
'but I did in fact experience something that was beyond this three-dimensional dream and that is my Near-death experience. My NDE is my reference point, my touchstone for reality.'

If you have already told the tale could you point to where it is in the forum as I would be interested in hearing it.

Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:29:51 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Seymour --

The actual 'core experience' of my NDE is here:

Bobby's core NDE

A longer autobiographical piece that speaks something about the context of my NDE as well as my 'spiritual emergency' experiences is located here:

Bobby's spiritual journey

The autobiography I would re-write in places. I wrote this piece 3 1/2 years ago. Of course none of the facts would change but some of the context might as lots has happened over the past few years. I consider my experiences as deep mythic reference points.

Note that these experiences are recounted on my web page called 'Sacred Transformations' where I invite people to share their personal spiritual experiences.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:59:58 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Knowledge?????
Message:
Why don't I get it?
Isn't life full enough?
I know lots of people who have spent lots of time trying
to escape this terrific design of a life we have here.

I am sure some think 'if only I could see better than my eyes
allow me' (or something like that) without realizing that the
design keeps us from seeing the bugs that are all over our bodies.

In the same way, this pursuit of 'otherworldly' experience
that is decievingly implied as -more real-, distracts people
from the real good stuff and also falsely paints the picture
that the best stuff is kept from us and we are supposed to
spend our lives pursueing fleeting glimpses.

Pick any group of people that pursue 'otherworldly'
stuff. Name one you think is valid.

Everyone want's to be special I guess.
THIS group is actually getting to the 'IT' more than the
other, or, even more insidious, the idea -there are many
paths to the one.

How about this, life is the path to death and THAT is the
out of body experience we will be stuck with then.

NOW, we have a great body and time and this place to live in
and if it was part of the design intent for me to slip into
some oneness, then SLEEP is given. And moments of wild fun
like sex and eating and danceing and laughing and makeing the
effort to see the fun to have in the moment is my option.

My efforts to go inside were rewarded with becomeing strange
and wierd to my fellow humans. And to be honest, I don't see
anyone here or in my life becomeing more real by 'going inside'.
It is not the answer Chris wants to think it is.
Bobby, you like to give great credit to the eastern thinking
'oneness' crowd and I would like your opinion on this,

If there was an origional intelligence operateing with matter and
energy to bring about this place and conciousness, would
you grant the likelyhood that it has a self aware part?
YOU are self aware, so how do we go from an origional intelligence
with the smarts to pull this thing off, to the eastern
idea that it is some non self concious 'oneness' that we
ARE and WE are the only concious ones and it is our lack
of recognition of our true identity that makes us think we are not
the god ourselves.

The grevious flaw in the new age eastern thinking is that
there is no concious power or GOD.
The origional intelligence has no personality.
The origional intelligence has no standards.
Only YOUR thoughts or the thoughts of other eastern types
who say YOU are the diety are the only thoughts of god.
Like prem rawat, they are so sure there is no god that they
play enlightened soul with arrogance and self deluding fraud.
I am talking about ALL the people involved in your approach to
life.
Be nice, be educated, sure, but there is no god.
There is no self-concious power intelligence.
Tell me the truth, you and CD don't think the power is
self-aware and so truly, there is just you.
And the other humans. And maybe some mythical other people who
lied and said they were enlightened by realizing that THEY were
the 'IT'.

I think this is discussing.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:52:33 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Knowledge?????
Message:
Hi Bill,

I'm influenced strongly by Tibetan Buddhism. It really works for me on deep levels.
I don't really think you want to hear about Buddhism per se.
I don't want to debate about God with you.
If you want to learn more about Buddhism I can recommend some good books. I think you have a lot of misunderstanding about Buddhism, Eastern thinking and non-ordinary awareness.

Respectfully,

Bobby
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:40:02 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: A smiling child was near
Message:
Hi Bobby,
I guess I don't really want to debate you, just talk to
you about that stuff.
I wrote that post at 2am after spending 1 1/2 hours in the
Yardeni y2k website.
Perhaps it was a post better written at a different time of day.
So, if it's ok with you, I'll write you on the weekend when
I get back. I will be with some folks who talk about these
subjects with me and also the tibetian buddist carpenter
will be there. So, a weeks worth of evolving on the subjects
is lined up.
If life likes you, it can help keep you from some troubles.
I see that some days, the greater intelligence exists and
can play a part. Not enough time to elaborate, but are you like
catholics who think some 'saints' or 'buddhas' can intercede
on your behalf?
Is that the deal?
Is that the buddhist or new age hope? To attain some spot
in the heavenly sun? Like catholics do actually.
A hierarchy. Steps of attainment. A human tendency to
want betterment perhaps, but when there is no concious power
in the mix like hindu guru types like rawat claim, then
there is no accountability and there is a bleak meaningless
quality to life.

The owner of the place we are working on in princeton just
got a 5 year lifespan prognosis from the doctors.
I thought of you.
And my wife.

Deep in the heart of darkness
The way ahead was clear
A brightness shone ahead
A smiling child was near.

That smiling child, there is the indication of a concious
power. Origional, part of the unfolding show.
Not looking for layers of 'saints' and likely NOT enshrineing
them anywhere. If you were the power, and you had the options,
I think you would grow fond of those that walked with you
during thier trip and enjoyed the life and tried to make
thier way with a good outlook and appreciation.

Without walking the road with the aquaintance of the power,
I think our time becomes less than it can be and also we are
prey to those that want to decipher life for us and we are
vulnerable because we overlook the simple reality.

Perhaps?
Todays idea.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 15:37:25 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Knowledge?????
Message:
I think I agree - apart from 'The grevious flaw in the new age eastern thinking is that
there is no concious power or GOD.'
Do you think there is?
Seymour
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:01:14 (EDT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Seymour Light
Message:
Hi Seymour,
Let me get back to you on that ok?
I'm off for a few days starting in a few minutes.

Good to see you posting again.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:25:37 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hi CD. I may be wrong, but I believe you are making a less than useful contribution to this discussion.

The greatest scientists say that as they learn more they learn more about how little they know.

(and now they all wish they'd been premies instead.)

Why aren't the greatest scientists premies yet, CD? Are they just stupid or unlucky? Couldn't Maharaj Ji just zap them with some Grace? These could be very influential people to have on your team.

That is the true reality of rational thought, science and logic.

uuhh...?

Those people with the answers to the eternal questions are truely ignorant.

Hmm... you may be on to something here, CD.

There is great value in things that can be experienced.

True. Bravely spoken, Sir.

The best things in life do not need an explanation.
We certainly will try to find explanations because we are curious. But, a mans got to know his limits


Maharaj Ji's whole fraudulent caper is based around offering an explanation.. THE explanation, in fact. (Me master, you student. I, giver of the one Truth, you receiver of much bullshit.)

By all means ditch explanations, Chris, if you feel so inclined. But why not ditch the fraudster while you're about it?

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 16:46:22 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
CD, You wrote:

'Those people with the answers to the eternal questions are truely ignorant.'

Like Maharaji? I agree!

'There is great value in things that can be experienced.'

Eating ice cream, walks on the beach, sex, and music. I agree.

'The best things in life do not need an explanation.'

Friendship, love, etc. Okay, so why does M continually have programs where he attempts to explain stuff to students?

'We certainly will try to find explanations because we are curious. But, a mans got to know his limits.'

So what are our limits? Are we limited from ever knowing what the answers are? Maharaji says that once you receive knowledge, all of the age old questions (Why are we here? etc.) disappear. Did those eternal questions disappear for you, CD? Jim? Katie? JW? Mike? Gail? Anyone else?

Are you saying that we have to go to someone with the answers because we have limitations that prohibit us from finding our own answers? How can we go to someone else if 'those people with the answers to the eternal questions are truly arrogant'?

Just trying to figure out a man's limits. Besides the fact that we can't fly, breathe under water, or live forever :)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:38:05 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
Sorry it took me so long to see this post VP. To answer the question you asked in your post to CD. NO, the age old questions was not answered by my association with M. For those that 'might' say, 'Were you dedicated enough, Mike? Did you give it a chance? Did you REALLY want IT?' You will have to take me at my word on these, but the answers are all a resounding YES! Without needless repetition, I'll borrow from one of my other posts here: I had seen the 'light brighter than ten million suns', I had experienced the 'clear light' and I had directly/powerfully experienced that which is called 'samahdi.' The longest experience lasted several days (while I was in the process of hiking the length of the Grand Canyon) and then drifted away. This series of experiences all occurred several years before I met any premie, mahatma or M. 'DID I REALLY WANT IT?' What an incredibly silly question! Who wouldn't have wanted that! When M said that he could (and would) restore all of us to that experience, my heart flew! I was HOOKED (without a line or sinker; he didn't need them for me). But, then I tried and tried; surrendered and surrendered; served and served; meditated and meditated; devoted and devoted; YOU NAME IT! NOTHING happened... Just alot of people spinning their wheels. Maybe because of the length of time since those original (unaided by M)experiences, I no longer see them as 'real.' That doesn't really matter, though. What does matter to me is that so many people desparately wanted what, he said, was his to give. Out of that incredible number of people NOT ONE, NOT a SINGLE ONE has achieved enlightment, samahdi, the clear light, god consciousness, whatever you want to call it. NOT A SINGLE PERSON has had the age-old question(s) answered after almost 30 years of dedication and effort with M. Doesn't this seem just a bit strange or unusual?

Now CD, as to limits I say, 'to what limits are you referring?' We aren't even using a tenth of our brain's capacity (sorry to say). How can we talk of any 'hard' limits to our abilities when we use so little brain-power to achieve what we have achieved, so far? When you talk about limits to our ability to 'understand the universe' or other really big concepts, it has to be tempered with the knowledge that we haven't even scratched the surface in terms of brain utilization. You know, maybe that is the experience of samahdi; the brain turns on all the way (or a heck of a lot more than normal). If that is true, maybe we should be USING our minds instead of trying to throw them away. What are the actual limits to our understanding? I don't know, I haven't seen 'a limit,' yet and neither have YOU! (Except those artificial limits that you have put on yourself by saying, 'I can't')
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:18:05 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Mike
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
With all due respect Mike, I think you are looking for a 'repeat' of your Grand Canyon experience in the wrong way. It sounds to me like your Grand Canyon experience was authentic. However, trying to 'grasp' that sort of experience cannot be done and the experience itself is not the point.

If you want to know why I think that, or are interested in further explanation, let me know and I'll email you. I have studied the kinds of experiences you and I have had and the people that have had them to a considerable extent and have some perspectives you may not have heard before.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:05:13 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
Bobby, thank you for the reply, but I am not looking... That's just the point. If it were to FIND me again, I probably wouldn't mind. I'm taking life as it comes, doing what I want to do and enjoying the heck out of it. Without sounding like a broken record: Life is awesome enough for me at the moment. Sharing that life-experience with my friends and family is reward enough for me, too. But, searching for ???? Nah, I spent enough of my valuable (to me and mine) lifetime doing that, already. Raising my kid to be a decent human has got my full attention and is much more important, to me anyway. She IS my joy!

But thanks...
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:43:38 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
Well, then....
all the best to you Mike!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:21:01 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A man's limits
Message:
>We aren't even using a tenth of our brain's capacity (sorry to say). How can we talk of any 'hard' limits to our abilities when we use so little brain-power to achieve what we have achieved, so far?

I am sure that you are aware of things like NP complete.

Now it could be that a part of us is not in terms of tenths and other measures but in fact IS the infinity itself.

>I don't know, I haven't seen 'a limit,' yet and neither have YOU! (Except those artificial limits that you have put on yourself by saying, 'I can't')

I actually agree with you here.
We should not put limits on ourselves by saying 'I can't'.

CD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:41:07 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Superman
Message:
>Just trying to figure out a man's limits. Besides the fact that we can't fly, breathe under water, or live forever :)

'I wish I could fly
But I can't even swim'

Superman by the Kinks
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:49:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Hey, what's wrong with a little hostility???? he he he. This type of behavior is healthy and honest, too (as long as it doesn't become physically threatening). Gets some crap of your chest, you know??? Rather than repeat a prior post... you may have already seen it... please look above for the one that describes where I'm coming from, too.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:53:08 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Mike
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
>>>>Hey, what's wrong with a little hostility???? he he he. This type of behavior is healthy and honest, too (as long as it doesn't become physically threatening). Gets some crap of your chest, you know???

Doesn't work for me, at least on this forum. To me, the line between verbal abuse and physical threat is not all that absolute. However, I'm not going to get into my reasons here. If you want to know more of my reasons please email me above and I will explain.

Regards,

Bobby
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:06:56 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Bobby,
I don't mean to upset you, but what's the difference between a 'difficult learning experience' and just a difficult experience.
Rick
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:15:02 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: difficult experiences
Message:
Gosh Rick, even I can answer that one (although maybe not the same way Bobby does).

A difficult experience is when you do something dumb because you didn't know any better (like follow a guru, or have an affair with a married man), have a terrible time, and when you finally get out of the situation you do the same thing again.

A difficult learning experience is when you do something dumb because you didn't know any better, have a terrible time, and decide not to do it again.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:21:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Chris is clueless
Message:
The greatest scientists say that as they learn more they learn more about how little they know.
That is the true reality of rational thought, science and logic.


What an abberation! This is completely misleading garbage and you know it. You're suggesting that the more scientists learn, the more they question what they've already learned. That's oxymoronic, moron.

Let's be simpler than that, comrade. If any 'great scientist' tried to talk with you would you be as evasive as you are with me? I think even the 'greatest scientists' would scratch their heads and say 'what they fuck was THAT?'

If your hope is that one day science will rationalize itself right out of rationality and then your stupid, no-rthought form of life will be vindicated, you'll die hoping. God, you're a dunce. Keep it up.

Hey, Chris, are YOU goinbg to get something happening over on the new premie forum? Imagine a conversation between two of you? Two Chris Dickies ---

CD1: I feel love. Maharaji is love. I feel life.

CD2: Yes, I feel love. Maharaji is love. I feel life.

CD1: Nice talking with you.

CD2: Yes, nice talking with you.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:22:38 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Chris is clueless
Message:
Well done, but you forgot the JSCA.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:45:22 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Chris is clueless
Message:
Jim Ji,

Damn! I posted my own reply to Chris's post before reading your own (better) response.

But you should take heart from:

Those people with the answers to the eternal questions are truely ignorant

CD had a moment of insight here. Isn't M's trip about nothing less than the eternal verities?

The lad is learning. Give him time...
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 14:52:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Chris is clueless
Message:
CD had a moment of insight here. Isn't M's trip about nothing less than the eternal verities?

Yes, of course. To any fair observer, Chris has kicked the ball into his own net. Perfectly, clearly and irreversibly, scored on himself.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 22:42:42 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Chris is OK
Message:
>You're suggesting that the more scientists learn, the more they question what they've already learned. That's oxymoronic, moron.

Are you talking about things like the info that the earth is round or questions about where the edge of the universe is?

Now, in our number system it is true that 1 + 1 = 2.
Yet there is no simple number that is the length of the hypoteneus of the right triangle with sides of length 1.
And Godels thereom does have implications for the limits of logic similar to the limits imposed by the uncertainty principle.

Are the components of the atom real things or just a good model for today.
I remember Charanand saying something like: air is not oxygen and hydorgen and all that other stuff. It is just air.
There is a lot of simple truth in that.

And why some people like Hendrix and others don't has no good explanation other than to say that that seems to be the way it is.
A lot like it just seems that yes, we are alive today without a good explanation for our satisfaction.
We are just lucky that a rose smells good.

What does worry me a bit is that Gerry's rave revue could mean that I would have to play rythm guitar more than I would prefer when we finally have our jam.
On the other hand it is interesting that he recently got motivated to put up his own forum.

Have fun,
CD
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 23:05:49 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Heisenberg Goedel
Message:
And Goedels thereom does have implications for the limits of logic similar to the limits imposed by the uncertainty principle.

Wrong.

When a Heisenberg fan suggested to Heisenberg that his uncertainty principle was like Goedel's theorem, Heisenberg came dangerously close to throwing the guy out of the window.

Chalk and cheese.
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:07:15 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: the realm of limits
Message:
>Wrong.

Wrong what?

They both imply limits in their respective realms.
Godels in the realm of the foundations of accuracy of a logical argument taken to its limit and Heisenbergs in the realm of the foundations of the accuracy of what can be observed taken to its limit.
Both in the realm of the limits that can be achieved.
This is where infinity and the paradoxes reside.
This is where the exact values of those simple numbers like PI and the sqaure root of 2 can be found.
The limits of the extents of time and space also have a home there.
These truths happen to be fundamental to the foundation of the entire thing that is what does exist.
And when you really realize that you exist in the midst of it you feel a rush.
Less intellectual types can just feel the rush without all the complicated heady trips.
We all are something looking outward through our senses.

CD
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 13:47:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: That's SO naive, Chris
Message:
And when you really realize that you exist in the midst of it you feel a rush.
Less intellectual types can just feel the rush without all the complicated heady trips.
We all are something looking outward through our senses.


Chris, your exploitation of these thinkers -- Heisenberg, Goddel -- is ridiculous. Not to mention abbhorently dishonest. You avoid rationality and rational discourse as if you were retarded. Then, once in a while, you flash these guys out as if to say that they give you the licence to do that. If Mrs. Heisenberg asked her genius husband what he did with the milk money, you don't think he'd start spouting off about 'my little uncertainty principle', do you? If Goddel's students asked him why the exam was on everything they'd covered since September when the course outline he gave them in the fall stated each semester would be tested independently, you don't think he'd tell them there was no logical explanation for anything, do you?

Yet, that's what you do here. How embarrassing, to see a grown adult carry on like this.

As for that 'something' looking out through the senses, what do you know about that? What, in particular, do you know about the brain? What have you read in brain science? You know, not Napoleon Hill and how-to-fool-the-world-and-you-along-with-it books, not spiritual mumbo jumbo, but good, modern brain research? Anything? You never discuss it, only your naive, romantic do-it-yourself anti-rationallity bullshit. Can't you see this?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:41:21 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Alright!
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 12:48:20 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I'm ignorant and naive!
Message:
I enjoy the discussions and recognize that I don't have to know it all! The people who do think they know it all can always find someone who will argue the opposite point of view! So what good is knowing it all!
Humbly,Carol
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:08:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Chris tells himself he's OK
Message:
Are you talking about things like the info that the earth is round or questions about where the edge of the universe is?

The former. That's what they 'know'. They don't know the latter.

Now, in our number system it is true that 1 + 1 = 2.
Yet there is no simple number that is the length of the hypoteneus of the right triangle with sides of length 1.
And Godels thereom does have implications for the limits of logic similar to the limits imposed by the uncertainty principle.


So? Keep going. Make your point. We might even be able to discuss this. (Although I AM going out tonight.)

Are the components of the atom real things or just a good model for today.
I remember Charanand saying something like: air is not oxygen and hydorgen and all that other stuff. It is just air.
There is a lot of simple truth in that.


Only 'poetic' truth, Chris. Otherwise, he's just wrong.

And why some people like Hendrix and others don't has no good explanation other than to say that that seems to be the way it is.

Relevance?

A lot like it just seems that yes, we are alive today without a good explanation for our satisfaction.
We are just lucky that a rose smells good.


Why how romantic! What's your point?

What does worry me a bit is that Gerry's rave revue could mean that I would have to play rythm guitar more than I would prefer when we finally have our jam.

What is this? 'Crossroads' or something?

On the other hand it is interesting that he recently got motivated to put up his own forum.

Chris, face it, EVERYTHING'S 'interesting'.

Have fun

No, YOU have fun!

Jim
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 23:32:44 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: CD
Subject: reply to Chris and request
Message:
What does worry me a bit is that Gerry's rave revue could mean that I would have to play rythm guitar more than I would prefer when we finally have our jam.
.


Chris,

I'm sure Jim will trade off on the lead. If you're nice, he may even play bass. He does that pretty well, also.

On the other hand it is interesting that he recently got motivated to put up his own forum

I wouldn't read too much into this.

The request: could you e-mail with some info on how you went about getting your MS certifications? It's actually a pretty big accomplishment, I've seen the exams required. My wife is interested, knows about the MS website but is curious how you actually went about it. Home study? College classes? Tech school? Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:41:33 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I've had a lot of difficult experiences in my life. I often find value in what they teach me about myself, about life, about the path in general. So my phrase 'difficult learning experience' (without looking at the original context of what I wrote) would mean that I learned through difficult experiences. Seems to be the way in my life.

Your kind of question would never upset me. I've responded on this forum with anger to personal attacks, never neutral questions or statements.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:10:56 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Laura, welcome here! I am sure of at least 2 things:

1) Change....my high school biology teacher said,'The only thing constant is change itself.' I have remembered that, experienced and been grateful for that, because I have seen that no matter how awful or confused things can seem in a moment, they will pass. I usually come out the other side with something good.
Also when we lose people from our lives there are always more people who can become important to us.

2) Learning to Love is the most important lesson of my life.

Carol
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:30:46 (EDT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A link to the Premie Forum
Message:
The meeting place for premies & friends of Maharaji

Click HERE to go to the premie forum
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:57:16 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: New Age Pensioner
Message:
I've not been around for a while and have just spent an hour or so browsing through some of the posts of the last week or two. I enjoyed the New Age thread and agree with Jim that there could be 'deleterious effects' from long term exposure. Concepts such as not being responsible for your actions or the converse, being responsible for everything that happens to you have no real foundation.
As these unsubstantial ideas become more fixed we start to build even more crazy ideas on top of them. What is infuriating with 'New Agers' is that their ideas are presented as 'truths' that cannot be questioned by us ignorant fools who only use our minds and not some sixth sense that we are blind to. Any attempt to open a debate always ends with something like 'you have to experience it' or 'the mind cannot understand it' or just some contemptuous look that says 'nevermind you will see the light one day'.
I sort of understand why these people propogate their views - apart from reinforcing their own beliefs there is the feeling that comes when you feel you have something that someone else could benefit from and you are in a postion to give it to them. However unlike a doctor with the medicine that will cure an illness these 'solutions' to life's problems are purely subjective. I even hear premies now saying that knowledge is not for everyone. It's a good job doctors don't say that about the many cures for diseases that have been discovered.
Trouble is that it is so easy to find people who are interested in becoming wiser and happier.
However, even though many of these New Agers are probably genuiune in their wish to improve the lot of mankind they are like the medicine men of the old day who offer some concoction they say will cure the pains of living - in fact what they are offering can actually do more harm than good.
I think there is a dilema, though, when someone really believes he has a 'cure' that works. It then becomes almost a duty to pass that cure on to others. It is important, however to allow the cure to be challenged, debated and tested. If a flaw appears then the proponent should bow out gracefully and go back to the drawing board.
If it is a map of life that is being presented then this also applies - especially being open to challenge and debate i.e. we should always leave lots of room for doubt in our minds. If something is true no amount of dissention will alter that fact.
Einstien may have moved forward from Newton's Laws but we still have gravity.
Also I thought Mike made a good point when he said that nothing 'just happens' - there is always a reason, and we have the opportunity to discover it through study, rational debate and open minded investigation.
I can no longer accept that not a blade of grass moves without the authority of the 'satguru'.
BTW I think the idea of setting up a premie forum is a good one, although I am not so sure that the emphasis should be on 'prank'. These premies are mostly good people ( after all most of us were premies at one time) and could do with the opportunity to talk to each other about their experience of knowledge.
Although it was not too often - one of the most enjoyable things about being a premie in the old days was the 'free for all' satsangs where anyone could speak out, as do the quakers, about their experience or lack of it. I know that a lot of the time it was a real bore with mahatmas, co-ordinators etc. towing the party line, but I remember some realy inspiring speeches from the heart about such things as the nature of justice and love. It was also just great to hear from someone who was having a similar experience to yourself and I still think it was the only aspect of being a premie that taught me anything about my fellow humans. Of course this forum is better because there is not the religious, superstitious undercurrent that flowed in those days but I think it would be providing a real service to premies to allow them to talk. You never know they might come up with some genuiune 'realisations'.
Cheers,
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:55:35 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Re Premie Forum
Message:
Wotcha Seymour -
I do agree with you about the premie forum (even after being ridiculed by Jim for expressing same!). You wrote:

BTW I think the idea of setting up a premie forum is a good one, although I am not so sure that the emphasis should be on 'prank'. These premies are mostly good people (after all most of us were premies at one time) and could do with the opportunity to talk to each other about their experience of knowledge.

I agree. I also think the premie forum could turn out to be a place where premies can get in touch with each other to find out about events, search for missing friends, and so forth. I don't honestly believe that David's main objective in setting it up is as a 'prank'. Perhaps a bit authority-defying, but that's all right with me.

Take care Seymour - hope all is going well.
Regards from
Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:26:14 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs
To: all - response to Seymour
Subject: New Age Pensioner
Message:
I really liked what you said about a cure and being able challenge, debate and test it. We weren't allowed to do that with K. Allowed? Isn't that why we wanted to receive K? We didn't buy into behavior like 'alIowed'. I remember Joe Lopez, NYC Goju Kai, head of M's security at one time, teaching premies science of the mind. When M found out he said Only His K, his K is enough and we are not to indulge in any other kind of knowledge seeking. I feel sick inside that I bought into this. It is Twenty seven years later and I found your site last night. I have read dozens and dozens of spiritual books, trying to find a way of self-fulfillment, but have never followed any different practices, because in the back of my head was 'only K, everything else is not true, there is only one truth, etc.'
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:37:59 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: to Laura
Message:
Hello Laura, and welcome to the Forum.
You wrote:
When M found out he said Only His K, his K is enough and we are not to indulge in any other kind of knowledge seeking. I feel sick inside that I bought into this. It is Twenty seven years later and I found your site last night. I have read dozens and dozens of spiritual books, trying to find a way of self-fulfillment, but have never followed any different practices, because in the back of my head was 'only K, everything else is not true, there is only
one truth, etc.'


I can relate to this so much. I don't believe that M and K are the only way and the 'one truth', or whatever, but we went through so much programming on this subject that it's difficult to rid ourselves of some of these feelings. I can tell you that the ex-premie forum and site has really made me see that that the Knowledge is NOT the only way. There are many other gurus and teachers who teach the knowledge techniques and don't put this particular spin on it.

Hope you keep posting.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:00:45 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: to Laura
Message:
Thank you Katie. I don't know of any other Living guru or teacher who does put the spin on it that 'I am the only way.' But my guru and your guru did put that spin on it. And it kept me spinning from the time I was 20 until now, 47.

I'm feeling as if I wasted my life. Practicing meditation is necessary, but as long as you have K, practicing or not, you're different, better, saved, because you have GMJ. This what I was told and what I believed. It kept me separated from the rest of humanity, my family included, because in my mid-twenties I left the ashram for family life and did not know any premies.

Before receiving K I thought life was useless, and now, I'm lost again. Should I start once again, 'What is the purpose of this life? How do you live this life?' I thought I knew the answer. The answer was to receive K, be a premie and rejoice.

Now, a new life, full of possibilities, but letting go of GMJ and his promises is taking me decades. I believed so strongly, and for so many years, because not to believe was to admit that what I thought was my salvation was really just another human being.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:51:15 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: to Laura
Message:
It is a brutal drop to be go through what we did.
At least there is this forum to bridge your transition.

Although I know many people here, I don't know how they
will answer your questions. There is a lot of variety here.

How about this, you have time and life, you can decide
to have a good attitude and look for the good stuff in
any given moment.
You remember Pollyanna? She had good and bad in her enviroment.
She decided to find whats good and focus on that.

Was this enough for me? No. I had to sort through the whole
religious world and come to some conclusion. Here is my
conclusion. This life is here and you are here in the hopes that
you will enjoy it and that you(me) don't have to do anything
for the life (or god) except try to love life and those in it.

We are not to become everyones fool because we are trying
to 'love' them, but by trying to find the good in every moment,
I shine, I'm happier.

Nothing wrong with feeling your breath or whatever, but there is
no use to pretending m is more than he is.
He is a hindu and plays at the hindu guru as god fantasy.
A disgusting charade that wrecks havok on others lives.
He can't give it up because of his ego, confusion and greed.
You once believed in other fantasies, santa ect. Now you can
walk on the sunny side of the street as a free woman.

There is a help button on your computer. In life there is a
help option also. Some will disagree, but many have said
there is a freindship that can be had with the larger
thing we came from. You read many so-called spiritual books.
They can gum you up as badly as the former lord of the universe.

Everyone wants to propagate thier view on life.
How about just Pollyanaism? Find what's good in the moment,
have a good attitude, trust that you are not required to be
anything more than yourself as you are now but just to add
the smile of loving your life.
Even a bleak situation can be revealed as your personal heaven
if you apply the right attitude.

Forget the world of ideas about god. Life is in front of us.
Enjoy that.
Having said that, I am leery of posting this because who
turns on a dime? I don't want to be discourageing you
from posting your continued thoughts that trouble you.
I do.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:41:31 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Pollyanna reply
Message:
Thank you for your thoughts and words. I will think on them.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 19:47:33 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: freedom@gtn.net
To: Bill
Subject: To Bill
Message:
Thanks for that post to Laura. You are right. The Pollyanna approach is a good one.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:24:18 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: to Laura
Message:
Laura: YOUR posts are some of the most heartfelt and honest self-examinations that I've had the pleasure to read. WELCOME to this site. You are asking the 'brutal truth' questions. All I can say is that it's OK. No, you didn't waste your life, you learned something, right? Don't surrender the reigns of your life to ANYONE, ever again. Good Lesson, I think. You ARE NOT lost. You've cut yourself loose from the one of the biggest ego-maniacs that I've had the misfortune of meeting. Love and 'meaning' existed before M, they exist despite M's attempt to alter what they mean, and will exist LONG after M is gone. Look around you. I think you will find what I'm saying to be true. Somehow people in this world do REAL good, without his aid, they love each other without his aide, they care about each other without his aid and they are truthful with each other without his aid.

Thanks for coming aboard. (Ok, I'm a retired sailor... it kinda comes out... brainwashing, ya know!) he he he.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:46:55 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Your kind words
Message:
Thank you for being here. Your words to me are very kind. All of this hurts and is exciting at the same time. Breaking free?! Yeah ! to what?!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 11:08:39 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Your kind words
Message:
Laura: 'breaking free' to what? To LIFE. The experience of life, just that simple. This is part of that experience. You don't need M to tell you how to experience life; YOU ARE alive. How arrogant of him to think he can do it better than you. Judging from his money-hungry fraudulent ways, he hasn't learned nearly what you have, in truth. I KNOW this hurts. That's why we are all here on this site. Don't give up, ok? Go out and smell a flower: THAT IS WONDERFUL REALITY!
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:42:40 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, I like your posts
Message:
I like the way you think, Mike! I like to read your posts and I am glad you are here.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 02:41:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Mike, I like your posts
Message:
VP: Thank YOU very much for allowing me the chance to express my thoughts and feelings. This really is a great site!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:44:51 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: New Age Pensioner
Message:
Hi Laura.
I appreciate what you say about your long term search for spiritual answers. I just want to say that on this forum you will find several perspectives. Please don't think of any one or two of these perspectives as representative of all ex-premies. There is much said here, and also a lot that is not said!

I'd be interested in speaking with you further about some of the 'other' perspectives. Some of the the strongest perspectives on this ex-premie board speak very critically and at times, in my opinion, arrogantly about spirituality. (I realize that some of us who have had positive spiritual experiences have also been arrogant, me included.)

Some of us have had positive experiences with spirituality other than the Maharaji flavor. Some of us find it hard to maintain an open dialogue on this particular premie forum. Recently some other forums have started. You can find information about these other forums in recent posts.

---------------------------------------------
I remember well the Joe Lopez Science of Mind workshops. I spent a lot of time with Joe in India in 1971 and was part of his original WPC security force in India in 1971 and at Guru Puja in Montrose. In India 1972 we formed a sort of 'keep the peace' security to mediate between premies and the rather authoritarian WPC security/police force that sprang up for India 1972.

I was at several of the early Science of Mind workshops in India and at Goju Kai. Maybe we were at some of the same workshops. I spent a lot of time with the New York Premie scene in the early seventies. Maybe we would recognize each other or know some people in common.

BTW, I'll be contacting Joe soon. Haven't spoken with him in many years.

Regards,

Bob Manrodt
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:57:47 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: shadowpixs@aol.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Reply re Science of Mind
Message:
I would love to speak with you further about other perspectives. I have not found other forums, only this one. Feel free to e-mail me at my aol address.

I would very much like to find out if we know each other or know other people in common. Is there another place you would like to talk?
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 19:16:42 (EDT)
From: PaulR
Email: pgrobinson@hotmail.com
To: Laura
Subject: New Age Pensioner.
Message:
Dear Laura,

My perspective,

I learned something, and I got ripped off too. Now I have to deal with the mess I made of things; in my own life and in the lives of others.

I know what you mean by a 'New Age Pensioner.'

Dear Bobby, I'd like to know where Joe Lopez is myself. He wanted to teach me his Karate stuff. I saw him at the program in the Poconos.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:13:05 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: What is this forum?
Message:
I am amused by the number of recent posts commenting on what should or should not be posted on this forum.

For me the beauty of this medium (and what makes it such a great place to visit) is that Forum III can be at various times any or all of the following:

1) A self-help group for ex-cult members
2) A chat-room
3) A soap-box at Hyde Park Corner
4) Somewhere to distribute religious tracts
5) A scientific journal without any peer-review
6) A new-age pow-wow
6) A two minute slot at a stand-up comedy club
7) A no-cost 'vanity publisher' for aspiring poets/philosophers etc.
8) A debating chamber

But maybe the most appropriate real-life analogue is the humble 'bog wall' (translated=the wall of a john/toilet/convenience where people scrawl graffiti). Nobody has to read it (but who can resist?); you can add your own comments but at the risk of being challenged by unseen fellow-scribblers, and for those who don't like the tone around here, there is now these new toilets just around the corner where anything too disgusting or offensive is promptly removed by the attendant/janitor who patrols regularly with his scrubbing brush... :-)
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:50:25 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What is this forum?
Message:
Very right on Nigel,
You seem to have it covered. I enjoy most of said aspects of the forum and I think that rational discourse, when it happens, can actually help to enlighten us.
It seems that the inexorable fecundity of spring has had an effect
as there are now junior forums popping up.
Long may it continue,
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 10:20:51 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What is this other forum?
Message:
Dear Nigel -
You wrote (I won't quote your whole analogy, but it was priceless):
and for those who don't like the tone around here, there is now these new toilets just around the corner where anything too disgusting or offensive is promptly removed by the attendant/janitor who patrols regularly with his scrubbing brush... :-)

The analogy is reasonably correct, but I'd like to add a bit more.
Here is the rationale for the 'flame-free' forum. (Gerry might have more to add to this, BTW) As you probably know, Gerry set up a list-serv a few months ago for those who wanted to talk about the paranormal/New Age/spiritual beliefs, etc. in a flame-free environment. A few people have since contacted me and said that they were apprehensive about posting on the present forum because they didn't want to get flamed. One person said that she had been told so many times by premies that what she was thinking or feeling was wrong that she couldn't face being told the same by ex-premies! I did refer these people to the list-serv, but some folks are apprehensive (for very good reasons) about revealing their e-mail addresses.

Thus Gerry and I got the idea for a flame-free forum which would be an extension of his list-serv, doesn't require e-mail addresses for subscription, and on which these people who were feeling put off by the present Forum could post. Gerry very kindly offered to set this forum up and monitor it (to be the 'janitor', although I'm not sure he will like that comparison!).

This 'Forum Lite' concept has been tried before and hasn't worked. I am not sure if it will work now, but I think it's worth finding out. At this point, it's an experiment. Some of the recent (and not so recent) exes are quite sensitive (leaving big M isn't easy) and may not want to participate in an anything-goes forum without working up to it first - I am hoping that they will feel comfortable about posting on a flame-free forum. I believe it's worthwhile finding out.

Also, I should mention that the traffic level on the present forum is phenomenal, and sometimes the number of posts gets to be quite large. Thus there may even be a real NEED for several forums in the future.

Take care, Dr. Nigel
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:37:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: 10) The Truth Commission
Message:
Howdy Kate, Wotcher Seymour,

I forgot the most important (IMHO) aspect of the forum. It is a place for the gathering together of eye-witness evidence of the sheer arrogance and hypocrisy of our former 'perfect' master, evinced in the smoking, the mistresses, the drugs and the drink problem, his non-practice of Knowledge, not to mention the personal mistreatment of many trusting devotees.

I remember about seven or eight months back when the rumours started appearing there was considerable outrage among premies (especially Mili) at what was seen as mere gossip and rumour. Nowadays the stories have been verified by so many independent sources, even revealing lovers (His and Hers) by name, that you no longer see a single premie denial.

Instead we get the rationalisations; Maharaj Ji smokes to blow premies concepts about how a Perect Master should behave. (And we all know how dangerous having concepts can be). Even worse was that reference to Ann Johnson (?) defending M's smoking by saying he did it to keep him grounded (otherwise he'd just merge with the infinite and lapse into a permanent vegetative bliss state).

Did anyone see 'Fire on Mount Carmel', the made-for-TV film based on the eyewitness accounts of Koresh's devotees.
Koresh, in defence of his endearing habit of sleeping with his devotee's wives whilst banning the husbands from doing likewise, started calling himself the 'Dirty Messiah'. By indulging in the very sins he denied his followers, he was sparing them the awful consequences...

M's looking more and more like a 'Dirty Messiah'.

Regards (Katie) and Cheers (Seymour),
Nigel

bTW: I love this propogation of forums (fori?), and have already told Gerry he's cool, so no worries there... ulp!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:09:29 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks, Nigel
Message:
Nigel:

I agree with all you've said about the forum and it's purposes. Personally, I like the free-flowing nature of it. I also like to see how it has gained speed and momentum over the past year. I say let it grow without trying to define it too much, or it might stifle the growth. I also think that the spawning of new forums isn't a bad thing either.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 18:35:25 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Thanks, Nigel
Message:
Hi Joe,

Anon said something lower down about organic growth, and how there was something inevitable about it. You too recently said how the forum had reached critical mass, and nothing could stop it now. You're right. It's bigger than all of us. I find it's not even possible to read every post now, when, just eight months ago you could read the lot in ten minutes or so per day.

I think there are about 11 anti-scientology websites. They probably had similar small scale beginnings as this one. The more webspace given over to the cause (with 'mirror sites' if necessary on servers around the world) the less possibilty there will ever be of encountering legal difficulties.

I really think this whole adventure could put the spanner into Maharaji Ji's operation once and for all. I sincerely hope so.

Regards,
Nigel

Swam in the Gungee, '78

(ps, wish you'd been around during the latest Chomski thread...)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:28:56 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks, Nigel
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Thanks for saying you could read all the posts 8 months ago but can't anymore. Maybe that is my problem too! Here I just thought it was my life in general.
I also loved your post as to all the faucets of the forum.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:17:43 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What is this forum?
Message:
Nigel, I like the analogy! Our e-mail addresses are like our phone numbers, except for those who really leave phone numbers, like Jim!
Carol
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:22:54 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carol
Subject: What is this forum?
Message:
Hi, Carol,

It's past my bedtime, and I didn't quite understand this. Unless you're saying that even with email addresses we're just as anonymous as anonymous posters... Yes! I think that probably is what you're saying, and you're quite right, unless, of course I'm wrong, which does happen sometimes...and doesn't mean you're wrong too - in which case you might still be right but I missed the point ;-)

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:36:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: nigel
Subject: What is this forum?
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Cutie!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:11:56 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
Philedelphia, August 27, 1978

Listen, if by any reason you are getting sick and tired of the programs, imagine how sick and tired Guru Maharaj Ji must be getting of you.
------------------------------------------------------------------
No matter how much Dudley (dog) realizes, no matter how much Galvin realizes that I am Guru Maharaj Ji, still the most thing it cn do is just look at me. And that's it.

But as human beings, not only that but you can have darshan. And have the please of having darshan. You can listen to satsang. Listen, and have the pleasure of listening to satsang, have the pleasure of meditation, have the pleasure of service.

You see, the problem is, you don't have to do satsang, service, and meditation. (I bet a lot of people are going ,'Whew! That's really good man!') You must do it.

It's not a question of have, and option that you have. You must do it.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Guru Maharaj Ji has not only promised us, but given us more than what he has promised. Always. Always.

And as that battle begins, the things get even more tense. And if that faith is not there, if that faith is not completely in Guru Maharaj Ji, you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself. You will run right out of count. Right out of it. You will go beyond zillions, billions, everything.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Guru Maharaj Ji is a helping hand. Butg he's not only the helping hand. He's everything. He's not only going to assist us, but he is going to . . . (he trails off here)

He is the train and he is the tracks and he is the engine. He is the captain. He is the boat. And he is the voyage. And unto Guru Maharaj Ji, when we surrender, then he takes us to his world. Then Guru Maharaj Ji takes us to his world. And his world consists above time and space.

Guru Maharaj Ji's world is made up of everything where darkness doesn't exist. It's wonderful. It's love. Thre are no sunsets; there are no sunrises. But all ther is, is Love, Love, Love, Love. And even greater than Love. He is there. Guru Maharaj Ji is there.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 08:03:03 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
Hi Gail,
' you're going to fall in so many fragments that you wouldn't be able to count them yourself'
What with that and half a ton of rotting vegetables inside me It's a wonder that I can still use the computer, have a job and enjoy life from time to time.
Are you sure that's not a quote from the 'fundamental' Amos in the 'DOOMED' post further down? - (there is a suspiciously similar turn of phrase from TD at the end of the Forum-for-Premies thread i.e.
'I will maintain my mental and larrikin shackles whence ever I tarry forth to that site yonder!' I think we should be told if they are related.)
Cheers,
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:45:18 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
Gail: you sure found a good one. What can I say? It has everything LIES, MASSIVE EGO, GOD COMPLEX, disrespect for those that he leads; you name it. Now to all of the premie lurkers: this is a QUOTE from your master. DO you still think we are misinterpreting things? hmmmm? That should just about do it, if you stll have a mind left...

Boy, I am cantankerous this morning. All of my posts are a bit on the rough side today.....he he he.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 16:01:32 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
I was there at that program with my 6 month old (3rd)son. There was no childcare, just a viewing room with closed circuit tv, or trading off with his daddy! I don't remember what he said of what I heard. Thanks for the reminder!
Carol
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 20:19:35 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
Did he really say the first part:

'Listen, if by any reason you are getting sick and tired of the programs, imagine how sick and tired Guru Maharaj Ji must be getting of you.'
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:43:46 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Quotable Quotes
Message:
Hi VP,

Yes, I heard him say that.

Looking back, I recall many programs where his message seemed to indicate that he was doing it all for us, sacrificing everything for our benefit, and we were ungrateful slobs who didn't realize how lucky we were to be in his presence. The programs followed a definite pattern there for awhile. A few of the initiators came close, but none surpassed the brow-beating ability Maharaji displayed. It was sort of sado-masochistic, in retrospect. 'Oh yes, Groomraji, tell me what a piece of shit I am and then, by your grace alone, let me come and kiss your feet.' (Nevermind the fact that I have sacrificed all my material possessions, significant relationships, or interest in the external world, I am scum, I am nothing, blah blah blah...)

I didn't mind the brow-beatings nearly as much the lengthy monologues on flying planes and poor service in hotels. Poor little guru, not getting proper treatment. I weep to think of it even now.

eb
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:03:10 (EDT)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I missed you!
Message:
Hi!

It has been a long time apart from this forum... and I miss it. I have been too involved with work and study, and I can say I don't have enough time for anything, not even to eat, or simply go to the movies once a week.

This is a completely out of topic post, and I hope you don't mind. I just wanted to say hi and 'give a great hug' at everyone here....(hummmmm.... not really everyone.... hehehe)...and special hugs to Robyn (I miss our e-mails, I wish I had time!)..... I also wanted to say...

have a nice sunday!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:07:33 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Paula
Subject: I missed you!
Message:
To you too, Paula, and welcome back.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:08:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Paula
Subject: I missed you!
Message:
Dear Paula,
I am going to have a nice Sunday, I am just leaving to go to the creek and bath, bad water situation here at home, and then relax and enjoy the day, sunny and just a bit to chilly for me but still beautiful.
Sorry you are so busy, I have 2 weeks left of busy and am looking forward to the break.
So good to hear from you again and know you are all right. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:25:19 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: I missed you!
Message:
Thanks for posting Paula - I always like your posts, and miss them too. I hope you don't have to stay busy for too long.
Regards from Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 01:58:09 (EDT)
From: Paul M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
I've been an ex-premie for some years now. I've been following the debates on this forum for quite some time now.

I have tried to ponder deeply regarding all sides of the
issues raised and finally feel to comment.
The majority of the ex-premies who post here are on the
wrong track. WHY ?
Because there is a hard-line attitude that is so arrogantly
sure of its position and so intolerant of alternative perspectives
and so blind to their own very biased stances that I can
only feel almost ashamed to be an ex-premie.

I wish to say and have on record that I as one ex-premie strongly
disagree and choose to distance myself from the extremist
views that are shared on this forum.

The athiest perspective as such is only one perspective of
the universe we inhabit.

A metaphysics that discounts science is doomed.
A science that discounts metaphysics is likewise doomed.
A synthesis between theology , metaphysics and science,
especially physics, is the way of fulfilling the evolutional
thrust that is being increasingly realised by more and more
scientists and metaphysicians by the day.
But there is still a conservative scientific fundamentalist lobby and
a conservative theological and spiritual fundamentalism that
holds sway and needs to be creatively confronted.

So , I hope that this forum can evolve into a more balanced
and less arrogant cyberspace.

Paul M
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:24:22 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Congratulations that you got out some time ago. I just saw the light two months ago after 24 years. I'm somewhat slow. What belief system do you suggest I embrace now?
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:45:14 (EDT)
From: Paul M
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
I suggest you develop your own belief system. Take what feels right from within yourself or from others and discard the rest. Don't be intimidated by those who lampoon your discoveries.

All the best

Paul M
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:35:30 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
And Paul: Tell me, EXACTLY, what is wrong with athiests? You say, on one hand, that athiests ideas are doomed, then you say find your own belief system. Choosing to NOT believe, is a belief system. In effect what you are saying is, 'It's ok to have a belief system, as long as it doesn't conflict with mine.' WHAT A HYPOCRIT! At least the athiests are honest enough to say they have a belief system, that doesn't include god, and to shout it loud! YOU ARE AS INTOLERANT AS THEY ARE!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 02:52:54 (EDT)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
I agree with your point of view.

But...

You started a war here inbetween you and some people, who really did not deserve your rude words.

If you want to show them the 'reality' or the 'truth', you won't go nowhere.

If you got bothered by what is said on this forum, it means you also are a little bit 'fundamentalist'.

You mentioned 'evolution' a couple of times....

didn't you know that paradigm you are using is completely obsolete?

wow.....

hehehehe......

don't spend your emotions with unworthy things...

have a nice sunday reading all the disgusting posts you will receive back!

Paula
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:14:21 (EDT)
From: Paul M
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Well, don't you think your response is a bit fundamentalist?
Can't we speak openly without it being misconstrued by other fundamentalists as 'rude'?

Paul M
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 05:51:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Paula
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Dear Paula,
It is you, heheheh...How the heck are you! I hope all is well and maybe calming down if you are here!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:05:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts: contradictions
Message:
Hi Paul M,

I have decided to quit shouting at people around here, but I would like to politely point out what seems to me an obvious contadiction between:

The majority of the ex-premies who post here are on the
wrong track.


and what you said to Gail:

I suggest you develop your own belief system

Kinda hard to square these two statements, n'est-ce pas?

Also, as Paula has indicated, your evolutionary views need a little clarification. Are you talking about natural selection, or something more along the lines of Sheldrake, Teihard de Chardin, or (Heaven forbid) M Scott Peck?

Whichever is the case, you'll find very few scientists accepting any such synthesis, IMHO.

Best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:12:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: My thoughts: contradictions
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Well how did that feel? Was it frustrating not to get a little nasty?! :) If it was maybe you shouldn't do it, stuffing feelings isn't good you know. Let me know.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 15:12:28 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: My thoughts: contradictions
Message:
Dear Robyn,

You spotted the pursed lip, huh? You won't tempt me to let rip that easily :-)

But I would politely add that I feel a certain empathy for Mike's post above.

Cheers,
Nigel
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 03:49:02 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Paul M
Subject: Your thoughts
Message:
I've never been in AA and probably wouldn't want to be- but I think around here people look at a lot of metaphysical stuff as a drink they shouldn't touch. People still feel these metaphysical feelings but perhaps revel in the fact that they are no longer recquired to be a bunch of zombied out missionaries. By hindsight I can see that my 'reaching out' actually served the flamboyant lifestyle of some false messiah. When I look back on preaching the guru's truth and all it knocks the proselytising air right out of me.

I meditate and stuff (honest!) but I ain't really on this forum to celebrate Yogananda's birthday bud. Maybe some other time.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:39:59 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: paul.m
Subject: Your thoughts
Message:
Paul M , I agree with your thoughts ;
and that is why I rarely post here.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:07:37 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: M.B/Paul
Subject: Your thoughts
Message:
I can understand how you might get those impressions about ex-premies from reading some posts here. But I think you are making a mistake by lumping everyone into one category, when we are all individuals. We don't choose to believe in Maharaji, and that is one thing we have in common.

I know about several of the ex-premies and their real lives. The forum only shows a very limited aspect of each person. We would be here all day, if everyone told everything about themselves. From what I know of several exes who post here, they are nothing like what you have described in your post above. They are off of Maharaji's track, which is a good thing.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 12:43:55 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Your thoughts
Message:
Paul M , I agree with your thoughts ;

That figures.

and that is why I rarely post here.

Thank god for small favors.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:44:34 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Your thoughts
Message:
Hey Runamok - I liked your post a lot. I think a lot of us here are have been burned by accepting M's form of religion too easily, and thus we find it very hard to trust in any other sort of spiritual belief system. I know that a little alarm goes off in me when I start reading or hearing something that reminds me of Maharaji. In some ways this is too bad, because of course some of the stuff that Maharaji says is true.

I'm not sure if I'd compare it to an AA meeting (I have been to a lot of 12-Step meetings) - people go to those to be supported in their efforts NOT to drink. I feel more like an abuse survivor. I think a lot of us are actually looking for something spiritual but also have an aversion to it thats hard to overcome.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 13:34:52 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: Katie's thoughts
Message:
Katie,
You're right, we were in an abusive relationship. The AA analogy is limited, but we really don't benefit from being encouraged to sympathise with BM or Marilyn. We have given arms and legs doing just that!
To be honest, I like it when premies and M apologists get trashed here- but I know it's not the best PUBLIC presentation and doesn't allow the person trashed the best route out. I, for one, want to 'spread this anti-knowledge', if you will, and tell people the signs of a guru/scam so when they get called they will know.
It's nice to get some of what we gave so freely back- we have each other.
Runamok
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 14:26:56 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Runamok's thoughts
Message:
Runamok wrote:
It's nice to get some of what we gave so freely back- we have each other.
I really like this thought - I was thinking the same thing while answering Laura's post above. The ex-premies have definitely helped restore some of my badly damaged faith in humanity.

You also wrote:
You're right, we were in an abusive relationship. The AA analogy is limited, but we really don't benefit from being encouraged to sympathise with BM or Marilyn. We have given arms and legs doing just that!

I have to say that I feel the same way. It is so common for abused people to sympathize with their abusers, and then take out the abuse on themselves or on someone else. I was abused as a kid, although not nearly as badly as some of the other people who post on here, and I still sometimes find myself feeling sorry for my parents and thinking that it was my own fault. Both my parents were abused too, and this makes me feel bad for them, but it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

I feel that there is an insidious tendency among premies to feel sorry for Maharaji. I think he encourages this, and I think Marolyn encourages this. You know: 'Maharaji works so hard, he gives up his life for you, and you premies just always let him down' (and so forth). I DO feel sorry for Maharaji and Marolyn sometimes (I certainly wouldn't want to be either of them), but that doesn't change the fact that they are responsible for what they have done.

P.S. Katie Masters (Baier)'s Journeys entry has some really good ideas about the similarity between recovery from abuse and recovery from cult involvement. (She is not me, by the way, although we have some similar ideas).
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 00:54:09 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thoughts runamok
Message:
The world abuses me . Minds abuse me. Maharaji abused me .
But most of all ; I abuse me !
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Date: Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 01:16:54 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: Your grace oh MB
To: M.B
Subject: Thoughts runamok
Message:
OK but don't abuse the forum MB.
I can't forgive someone who isn't sorry- that's how that works.
If the big Gooma were sorry I might - but that's a fat chance in Death Valley. When are we going realise we are here to accuse the goon who said he was here to save the planet, but couldn't save a pension for himself without displacing thousands?
When will the premies and apologetic exes stop inciting the peaceful, searching, sincere expremies who want to integrate themselves after years of cult brainwashing and the mass abusive relationship?
Perhaps you do want to abuse yourself MB - please forgive me if I don't want to watch.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:38:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Hello Paul,
I read your post several times, and what I think you are saying is that most of the ex-premies who post on here are atheists. If this is NOT what you're saying, than excuse me. I don't agree with some of the generalizations you have made about the forum. For one thing, most of the people who post on here are not atheists. There are at least three atheists who post here, of course, but I think that most of the rest of the people either believe in some sort of higher Power or think that there might be one.

Also, I don't think the people who post here are generally arrogant. There may be individuals who you find arrogant, but I personally don't think the general tone of the forum is arrogant. I am hoping that you will try and see the people on the forum more as individuals than as a group. Certainly, there is sort of a group dynamic that evolves here, but that can (and has) changed over time. I think the forum HAS become more balanced.

Regards,
Katie

By the way, I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, my husband and I are practicing scientists and we are not atheists OR fundamentalists of any religious persuasion.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 17:47:50 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Paul M
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Because there is a hard-line attitude that is so arrogantly sure of its position and so intolerant of alternative perspectives and so blind to their own very biased stances that I can
only feel almost ashamed to be an ex-premie.


My, aren't we judgmental! What 'perspectives' are you talking about? The only thing the ex-premies who post here have in common is that they ARE ex-premies. Hence, the only common 'perspectives' are that they don't want to BE premies anymore. PERIOD. That's the ONLY common thread among them, and the ONLY common 'perspective' I have seen. Other than that, each ex-premie is an individual with separate and distinct ideas about a lot of things, just like people you will meet anywhere. I for one have been careful NOT to discuss my personal views of religion, spirituality or the purpose of life. I do stray from the topic and talk about my political views from time to time, but not often, and people can choose to ignore them if they want to. Therefore, any perspective I might have about anything religious, spiritual, or metaphysical (not to mention scientific) other than Maharaji and his cult would be pure speculation on your part.

As far as being ashamed of being an ex-premie, unfortunately, I don't think you have any choice, kiddo, unless you want to high tail it back to the cult you left, and somehow I don't think you'd want to do that.

But there is still a conservative scientific fundamentalist lobby and a conservative theological and spiritual fundamentalism that holds sway and needs to be creatively confronted.

Care to explain what the fuck this passive-voice, nonsensical sentence means? Holds sway over whom? You?

And what 'extremist views' are you talking about? And I agree that I have know idea what you mean by 'evolutionary thrust?' It sounds oddly pornographic to me.
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 20:47:39 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
JW, That last part is funny!

I have had the habit of using a 'passive voice', grammatically speaking. It's a style or habit of expression that I thought, after thinking about it, sounded less hostile or aggressive than the 'active voice'. I learned when using Microsoft Word's Grammar tools. I also used the information to my advantage to change some of my passive sentences into active ones in order to more effectively advocate for my son with his school! I wanted to make sure they took me seriously, but without going over the edge the other way by being overly confrontational.

I think Paul actually has a more active aversion to certain specific ex's who he has felt attacked by here because of their more aggressive style and for the rest of us for applauding or tolerating them.(Paul, now you have a place to post where you won't get flamed so badly!)

Speaking of atheism, this thought came to me the other night. I don't know if I heard it before or if it is original:

The road to atheism is lined with fallen idols (then I added shortly after) and the frozen tears of unanswered prayers.
This would be apply to me were I ever to feel I was atheist, though I'm sure there are other roads to get there!
Carol
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Date: Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 21:54:15 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: My thoughts
Message:
Right, Carol. The passive voice is usually pretty weak, but it's also misued by a lot of people who have things to hide. You can't tell who is doing the deed? Remember Nixon saying things after Watergate like 'crimes were committed?' Also if you go back and listen to Nixon's 'checkers speech' it's ALL passive voice. He admits that 'mistakes were made' but never says who made them.

I reacted to Paul because he painted EVERYONE on the forum with the same brush, as being close-minded and, I guess, being some kind of rigid fundamentalists. I personally think that's very unfair.

I think the point to be take for people like Paul, if he does feel the way you say, is not to advocate some particular religious, spiritual, or scientific view. If you do, someone is likely to disagree with you and really, it's kind of off the subject. I think if someone said that they found some spiritual practice helpful if getting past the destructive parts of being a premie, that might be more helpful, but if it's just advocacy for a particular point of view, and then I'm not particularly interested.

Yes, I've thought about atheism. And I agree. Sometimes people have to try a lot of things before they get to that point.
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