Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 20

From: Jul 29, 1998

To: Aug 8, 1998

Page: 1 Of: 5


TD -:- A question about Service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:19:00 (EDT)
__Jim -:- A question about Service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:59:05 (EDT)
____TD -:- A question about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:52:38 (EDT)
__Ruanmok -:- about Service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:22:18 (EDT)
____Laura -:- about Service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:50:19 (EDT)
______Jim -:- about Service -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:39:44 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Anti-Gooma Mindcraft -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:02:41 (EDT)
______g's mom -:- about bathtub post -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:10:41 (EDT)
______TD -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:45 (EDT)
______Carol -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:10:14 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:55:10 (EDT)
______Mike -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:26:15 (EDT)
______Gail -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:29:19 (EDT)
____TD -:- about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:24:18 (EDT)
__Brian -:- A question about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 08:27:57 (EDT)
____TD -:- A question about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:27:15 (EDT)
______JW -:- A question about Service -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:12:08 (EDT)
________TD -:- A question about Service -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:25:41 (EDT)
__________Mike -:- A question about Service -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:18:49 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- An addendum -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:14:49 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Not Service, Neurosis -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:50:32 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Airplane seats -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:59:41 (EDT)
______________Rick -:- Airplane seats -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:03:10 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- M Quote 1973 -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:28:02 (EDT)
______________Rick -:- M Quote 1973 -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:07:47 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- M Quote 1973 -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:58:20 (EDT)
__________________Rick -:- M Quote 1973 -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:01:09 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- Huevos off topic -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:19:27 (EDT)
______________________Carol -:- For what? eggs or balls?nt -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 21:30:57 (EDT)
________________________Selena -:- For what? eggs or balls?nt -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:29:45 (EDT)
__________________________Katie -:- For what? eggs or balls? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:26:32 (EDT)
____________________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- For what? eggs or balls? -:- Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:21:14 (EDT)
__________JW -:- A question about Service -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- A question about Service -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:44:50 (EDT)
______________JW -:- A question about Service -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:53:01 (EDT)
________________TD -:- Thanks JW/Mike -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:32:56 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- Thanks JW/Mike -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:18:58 (EDT)
____________________Gerry -:- Thanks JW/Mike -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:06:50 (EDT)
______________________TD -:- Thanks JW/Mike -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:21:27 (EDT)
________________________Mike -:- TD & Gerry - THANKS (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:44:14 (EDT)
______________Rick -:- A question about Service -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:25:54 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- To-tube or not-to-tube -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:02:46 (EDT)
________________JW -:- Legal Status -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:07:15 (EDT)

Mike -:- Musicians -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:50:00 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Musicians -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:47:29 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- Jiva -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:05:41 (EDT)
______Barney -:- Jiva - street slang for heroin -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:36:35 (EDT)
____Mike -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:03:59 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:29:09 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:44:26 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Musicians & others -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 18:28:08 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- Suzy Bai -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EDT)
______________Bobby -:- Suzy Bai -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:30:11 (EDT)
____________eb -:- Musicians & others -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:25:21 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- Musicians & others -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EDT)
________________Bobby -:- Musicians & others -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:38:47 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- Musicians & others -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:08:33 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- Musicians & others -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:33:53 (EDT)
____________Bobby -:- John Handy -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:50:38 (EDT)
____Gregg -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:59:15 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:27:51 (EDT)
________CD -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:30:10 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Musicians -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:55:14 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- Supernatural Family Band -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 08:26:22 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Cat and Moodies -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:19:57 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Cat and Moodies -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:24:47 (EDT)
____________Mike -:- Feeding who? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:37:12 (EDT)
______________Carol -:- Feeding who? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:41:59 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Feeding who? -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:25:04 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Feeding who? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
________________Mike -:- Feeding who? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:59:24 (EDT)
__________________Runamok -:- Feeding who? -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 18:21:51 (EDT)
____________Jerry -:- Cat and Moodies -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:40:11 (EDT)
______________Victoria -:- Supernatural Family Band -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:42:57 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Danny Thomas -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:43:38 (EDT)
______________Carol -:- I know, I think... -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:18:46 (EDT)
________________runamok -:- yup -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:53:45 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- yup -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:51:07 (EDT)
____________________Katie -:- yup -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:22:48 (EDT)
______________________Laura -:- Musicians killed on the road -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:43:25 (EDT)
________________________Katie -:- Musicians killed on the road -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:51:09 (EDT)
________________________Bobby -:- Musicians killed on the road -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:52:02 (EDT)
__________________________Runamok -:- Musicians killed on the road -:- Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:14:52 (EDT)

To Katie -:- E-mail address -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:08:25 (EDT)
__Katie -:- E-mail address -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:39:22 (EDT)

Becky -:- Jim - you are aggressive -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:01:30 (EDT)
__Becky -:- the above is from me -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:02:11 (EDT)
____Becky -:- see for yourself -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:10:36 (EDT)
______Becky -:- hadiths -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:58:14 (EDT)
________Carol -:- hadiths -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:03:55 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- hadiths -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:41:17 (EDT)
____________M.B -:- hadiths -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:35:45 (EDT)
____________Carol -:- hadiths -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:50:01 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
________________M.B -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:31:22 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:37:29 (EDT)
________________Carol -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:17:51 (EDT)
__________________CD -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:22:16 (EDT)
____________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- no fucking way, Carol -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:04:13 (EDT)
______________Becky -:- right on Carol! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:30:48 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- right on Carol! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:00:12 (EDT)
__Gerry -:- Becky, you sucker, -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:05:52 (EDT)
____M.B -:- Becky, you sucker, -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:54:31 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Mel 's fanciful ''put-down'' -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:15:50 (EDT)
______JW -:- Mel, What Happened? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:30:03 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Mel, What Happened? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:41:37 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Not Making Fun -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:57:20 (EDT)
________Carol -:- Mel, What Happened? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:33:18 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Dear Mel -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:51:39 (EDT)
________M.B -:- Dear Mel -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:53:53 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- M.B., you're just stupid -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:45:49 (EDT)
____Gerry's Twin Brother -:- Becky, please listen -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:56:41 (EDT)
______Becky -:- Thank you -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:25:27 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Gerry, chill out -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:21:52 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Gerry, chill out -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:50:40 (EDT)
________Becky -:- Gemini Gemini!! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:36:45 (EDT)
__________Becky -:- Gemini Gemini!! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:20:31 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Gemini Gemini!! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:28:49 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Becky, you miss the point -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:01:25 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:50:22 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:21:34 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
________M.B -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:59:35 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:07:51 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:26:02 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:30:23 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:15:35 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:40:27 (EDT)
________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:03:22 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Why fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:19:42 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 17:42:02 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:13:13 (EDT)
____________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:31:08 (EDT)
______________m.b -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:08:26 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:20:02 (EDT)
________________JW -:- Help Us Out , Mel -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:41:19 (EDT)
__________________Mike -:- Help Us Out , Mel -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:46:27 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Help Us Out , Mel -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:15:04 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:29:15 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Group fun -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:07:24 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Group fun -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:12:31 (EDT)
________________Carol -:- Right Robyn! For me,too! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:45:35 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:23:30 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EDT)
______________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:45:12 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:21:38 (EDT)
__________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:04:57 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:41:04 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- Uh oh! -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:50:09 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- Uh oh! -:- Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT)
______________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:53:03 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:52:18 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:23:44 (EDT)
____________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:39:04 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:58:33 (EDT)
________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:09:27 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:17:45 (EDT)
____________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:09:26 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:18:03 (EDT)
____________________Can -:- That's my brother's birthday! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:57:01 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- That's my brother's birthday! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:44:18 (EDT)
________________________Carol -:- That's my brother's birthday! -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:59:39 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:30:03 (EDT)
________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:15:08 (EDT)
__________________Katie -:- Rick and the New Forum -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:31:47 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Rick and the New Forum -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:13:01 (EDT)
____________________Rick -:- Rick and the New Forum -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:42 (EDT)
______________________Gerry -:- Rick and the New Forum -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:00:20 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:06:47 (EDT)
____________________Rick -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:59:01 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:16:02 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:08:52 (EDT)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Group fighting? -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:45:32 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:16:23 (EDT)
__________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Group fighting? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:22:11 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? in OZ? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:23:05 (EDT)
______________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Group fighting? in OZ? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:34:24 (EDT)
________________________Carol -:- Tape? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:09:44 (EDT)
________________________Robyn -:- Group fighting? in OZ? -:- Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 07:30:14 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Opposite of a Cult -:- Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:05:40 (EDT)

Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:19:00 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
Could you exes/virtuals/children of, clarify for me something...

Did you ever witness, hear of, or know about, MJ ever once asking a premie who was doing an excessive amount of service, to either slow down, take time off, or stop, or do something else?

Surely, there must have been one time or one incident where MJ said to someone something like, 'Look such-and-such, I've heard you've only been getting 4 hours sleep a night for the past 3 months working on this house or editing these videos. Why not take some rest or go away and spend some time with your family.' If none of you can give me even one example of M having a teensy bit of compassion or empathy for his devotees slaving away like this and you know that MJ was aware of some premies working to exhaustion on a project, then it proves to me that MJ is not just a victim of his circumstance, nor is he just too preoccupied with his self-perpetuating role as Perfect Master, but he is, in fact, an insensitive and cruel sadist. For the sake of premies, I'd like to be proven wrong in this assessment.

Regards, TD
Return to Index -:- Top of Index
Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:59:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
TD,

There was a famous story circulating in the late 70's-- maybe it was even in some big shot's satsang (yes, I think it was) -- in which Maharaji explained that a good premie, a 'real' premie, was one who spent their whole life in service. In the end, exhausted and used-up like a burnt match, they'd look in the mirror only to notice they were old and grey. Then, and only then, could they think of themselves as a real devotee.

I imagine, at that point, he MIGHT put them out to pasture. Would that count?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:52:38 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
I've sat here trying to reply to what you just wrote, and I'm just dumbfounded. I know he's spoken at length about how great Charanand is because he left his mother who needed him, to become a mahatma. But to say something like this (which even if it is a story it doesn't sound too far-fetched considering the quotes we've seen of late) it is just beyond comprehension. Anybody fancy getting an ex-premie posse together and going to Malibu...

TD
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:22:18 (EDT)
From: Ruanmok
Email: lotuspower@aol,com
To: TD
Subject: about Service
Message:
A question for you.. Did you ever hear of M reaching out to some poor premie (poor from going to festivals or soo on) and feed them or house them?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 22:50:19 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: Ruanmok & everyone
Subject: about Service
Message:
No, I never heard of M reaching out to anyone. He pretended to be my guru. he never took a personal interest in me, he didn't know my name. I never knew him, except by his bathwater. I cleaned his house in denver and new york on my hands and knees. i cooked vegetables for his other slaves until my hands were orange and green. i gave him everything i had, i gave him my life. i gave him my tears and my dreams and my every breath (that i could remember, that is). i gave him my relationships and my children and my money and my every single day of my life because i believed in him. he said he was god and he didn't even know who i was. and he doesn't care ane now i'm sitting here sobbing like an idiot because i wanted GOD in my life and i was an idiot and i thought it was SO GREAT that i had knowledge and i had SHIT!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:39:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
Hey Laura,

I know what you mean, I know what you mean, I know what you mean.

Hang in there,

Jim
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:02:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Laura
Subject: Anti-Gooma Mindcraft
Message:
That's the stuff sweetie. And there are thousands of us. I think if we all got in touch with how bad it was AND we all knew we were there for each other... then our mind power could knock old humpty gooma off his rocker.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:10:41 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about bathtub post
Message:
your post is touching. And so true. We were all idiots. I still can look back in disbelief at my beliefs then. Reading the arti thread I was sickened that I used to sing that and mean it.

There are a lot of good people who post on this board. Whatever weakness it was that left us vulnerable to the cult seems to be shared by a lot of people who have become strong, wise and eloquent. Too bad we all have to look back with the self insight of knowing what fools we were. But I'd rather be aware I was a fool than denying it, justifying it or worse still washing the bathtubs.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:45 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
I know I sound like a cracked record when I keep saying 'unbelievable', but it is. It is because all you have is a bunch of incredibly sincere loving people going into something with absolute trust and commitment, and a desire to be happy and make the world happy - and all they got was a lot of empty promises, and exploitation from an ungrateful tosser. And premies, don't even bother saying anything about 'blaming Maharaji for our troubles', because that's horseshit, and you know it.

As I was saying, about that posse.....?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:10:14 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
I went through that, too. I still feel sad at my not having God in human form like I wanted. It was hard copying Arti. I loved to sing devotional songs. But to me, it doesn't mean there is no God, I was just looking in the wrong place.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:55:10 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
Laura, I was never an ashram premie so I can't relate to your experience as one, but I do identify strongly with the feelings you express. Please keep posting. You have a way of putting into words what many, if not all, of us feel.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:26:15 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
Laura: There is ONE bright spot to this whole thing. I think it's wonderful, absolutely wonderful, that there are people like YOU in this world. Someone who can REALLY dedicate themselves to a cause and give their all to/for it. Forgive yourself for making a mistake; you're human (and a good one, at that!). You may have steered your love and dedication in the wrong direction for a while, but IT IS YOUR LOVE and DEDICATION; it didn't come from him. You had it all along!

As Jim said: HANG IN THERE! (this will pass, believe me).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:29:19 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: about Service
Message:
Cheer up. It sounds cliche, but you'll feel better soon. My heart goes out to you.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:24:18 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: about Service
Message:
Nah, I've come to realise that M (like Marie Antoinette) comfortable in his Malibu mansion, couldn’t give a shit about how hard out-of-range premies are working for his cause, or what other things they are neglecting in their lives, or what they have sacrificed to help spread his message. But surely when he's been in physically close proximity to a hot, tired, sweaty labouring premie, he's just maybe said, 'Take five, wonderful devoted premie. You've worked way too hard for me today!' or ‘Gee, you haven’t seen your newborn baby for a week. Maybe you should pop home and bond with her.’ He must have seen the premies working hard on the 707 or his house, or has he always just keep a hierarchy of inner-circle supervisors as intermediaries, so that he can avoid having to see the toll the spreading of his message often takes?

The sad thing is that it still doesn’t seem to have changed. Some of the stories that came out of the preparation for this last Amaroo event were really disturbing, premie friends getting only a couple of hours sleep a night for weeks prior to the event, and virtually dropping out of exhaustion. To me, it is a total waste. For the amount of money and work that is needed for the upkeep of Amaroo, M could have a hundred events in a hundred halls, and many premies could maybe spend more time on worthwhile things or with people that really appreciate them.

TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 08:27:57 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: TD
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
The closest I've ever seen to any story like this was posted in Forum I by OP ('Old Premie'), who has since wandered off somewhere. She related a story about Maharaji telling her that it was more important for her to be spending time with her dying mother than traipsing around the world spreading Knowledge (advice that Maharaji himself never actually followed with Mata Ji, BTW).

OP obediently went to her mother and stayed there until Mata Ji told her to accompany her on an overseas tour. OP obediently went with her, leaving her mother to die with other premies attending to her - since her mother had received Knowledge. Apparently Maharaji was upset with OP when he heard that she had left. OP had believed that agya was agya.

She told this story to illustrate Maharaji's deep humanitarianism, but to me it just showed the whole problem with the cult. Most of the service 'abuses' weren't caused by Maharaji's selfish demands. We're all free to stomp our feet and demand things from those around us. But most of us aren't surrounded by 'Old Premies' who are STILL dropping our own lives to fulfill his little wants. And it's this willingness to rationalize, sacrifice, and obey that causes otherwise sincere people to become old premies in the first place. That many can still justify their devotion after all these years (like OP still does by helping out at events) is pretty sad.

OP shouldn't be hard to spot at these events. She's the woman with greying hair and a blissed out look on her face. Somewhere near the front of the room.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:27:15 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
Thanks Brian! Yeah, I vaguely remember reading OP's story in Forum 1 archives, but as I would have been a premie when reading it, was probably in such a confused state, wouldn't have known what was irrational or illogical premie behaviour from Adam!

I knew there had to be at least one story where he showed just a wee bit of compassion or appreciation, but considering all the stuff that is done for him, one story so far, is still pretty dispicable.

It's funny how Maharaji's 'requests' are interpreted by different premies, even now. At the Amaroo conference, a coordinator was saying how when M had flown in from India and pointed out all the things which were wrong and all that he was unhappy about with Amaroo and all that he wanted fixed, she said that he looked at her and said 'Am I a nuisance?' and she thought that was so sweet. Those 4 words seemed to make the fact that he had complained excessively about the presence of cow-poos and problematic security and a hundred other things, all OK. I've gotta try that one at work, but at least the people who'd do it for me would be paid, and they'd also get a big 'Thanks very much', and not just a 'Am I a nuisance' at the end of it!

Hey, I've seen OP! In the earlier videos she used to take a laptop and modem in with her to events. That must have been when she was posting to this forum...

Regards, TD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 16:12:08 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
I agree, TD. I think M just doesn't give a shit about his premies and never has. He only thinks about what HE wants.

During the 707 plane project, M was constantly micromanaging the thing and changing the design whimsically and with no thought of how that would affect the hundreds of premies working on the plane. Premies worked day and night with very little sleep. At one point he even said he wanted all the fabric used on the plane to be WOVEN by premies. It was pretty outrageous. He would also ask for things totally unrelated to the plane that he wanted done in very short periods that required premies to work day and night to finish them.

One time in particular I recall they had rented a business jet for him to go to some program. He wanted a couch/bed installed in the jet and he was leaving in 3 days. The premies did it, and people worked 72 hours straight, with no sleep to get it done. He just didn't care how the 'service' affected the premies. He didn't really need it; he just wanted it, and the premies were supposed to feel privileged to trash their own lives to give it to him.

There are also premies who suffered physical injuries from working on the plane. One woman I know worked with toxic chemicals on the instrument panel in the cockpit and was disabled for a number of years thereafter. She got no compensation.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:25:41 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
At one point he even said he wanted all the fabric used on the plane to be WOVEN by premies.

My God, why? I'd love to know the reason he gave. Maybe it's good 'feng shui' to have the sweat of a dozen devotees impregnated into the cloth that the Perfect Master uses in his plane. Maybe he believed that the celestial dragon would bless him with better weather on his flightpath if the fabric in the plane was indeed made with the 'love and devotion' of his followers....

At the moment, such pedantic behaviour is described by premies at conferences here, as 'his absolute desire for quality'. Sounds so respectable doesn't it, when really it's nothing but absolute unquenchable greed and exploitation!

Thanks for telling me about this JW. It's pretty amazing about that poor woman being disabled. I wonder if she's still a premie?

Regards, TD

PS. I heard that after doing this plane, some other non-premie plane owners were so impressed with the job done on M's plane, the premies set up some sort of plane-refitting business. Is this true?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:18:49 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
NO, NO, NO TD. Don't you get it? He asked for it so that the premies 'would have an opportunity to serve' at his holy lotus feet. Man... sometimes we are sooooo dense. As for the disabled premie, she must not have been surrendering enough or it must have been her penance for some bad karma. Wait a minute, isn't BM supposed to remove karma???? Oh man.....another concept blown out the window!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:14:49 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: An addendum
Message:
Obviously, the foregoing was a joke, but AGAIN and AGAIN, I can't believe I FELL for that line of crap, not just once, but over and over again. How many times did BM 'offer us opportunities' to slave away for him (under the guise of 'service' to the lord)? How often did he 'offer us the opportunity' to get rid of...you know that really troublesome green stuff with dead president's faces on it...oh yeah, money! (I saw so little of it as a premie, I almost forgot what it was called), to buy an 'opportunity to surprise him' with a Rolls Royce, Airplane, House, whatever the need-du-jour was.

I tell you truely, I feel incredibly STUPID! It's the only word that fits.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:50:32 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Not Service, Neurosis
Message:
My God, why? I'd love to know the reason he gave. Maybe it's good 'feng shui' to have the sweat of a dozen devotees impregnated into the cloth that the Perfect Master uses in his plane.

I think the plane was more than just a luxurious plane for M that he wanted because he thought it was cool. I think the whole project was also physical proof for his own ego that people really did believe he was god. That's why he always demanded more, because if he was god, he deserved it, and if he got it, he could prove to himself he WAS god.

In The Guru Papers the authors describe the typical cycle a guru goes through. First, there is lots of optomism and many new converts. But then, that stops and it becomes painfully obvious to everyone that, for example, Maharaji, is NOT going to bring peace to, or save, the whole world like he said he would. So, the cult kind of turns in on itself after that, the guru demands total 100% devotion and dedication from the followers and he starts demanding grandiose projects and other things to compensate for his failure in his stated mission.

I think this analysis fits Maharaji perfectly. After the Millennium fiasco, the fight with his family, the 1976 liberalization, and propogation coming to a virtual standstill, Maharaji started doing all those super-devotional programs, beginning in about 1977, dancing, darshan, and talking only about devotion and surrender to him. At the same time the plane project came along, and he just demanded more and more. The plane and the plane project was kind of a toy for him, but I also think his ego was tied up in it as well.

So, the 'demand for quality' is likely just a toned-down version of the same thing. Since he's god, he deserves the highest quality, and if the premies give him the highest quality (even though it is NEVER high enough and more is always needed), then he might really be who he thinks he is, but doubts from time to time. I mean, it MUST dawn on premies from time to time to question whether his pathological desire for 'quality' is really that important! I mean, is this really necessary? Why? Does it make any sense? Is it just compulsive?

No, I think it's because he thinks only the best is good enough for him and whatever he gets just isn't quite good enough. It's kind of sick, really, and it's the premies who suffer with all the burn-out and endless fundraising. That new, ostentatious and highly bizarre, 'residence' (with power windows no less) is likely more the result of M's own personal neuroses, than any practical habitational need.

I also think that the fact he is having darshan again is due to his need for money, but also his need for an ego boost.

By the way, I think that after the plane project, DECA did continue to subcontract certain airplane fabrication work (I think airline seats.) But it isn't surprising that they got additional work. I mean if you don't have to pay your workers, use them as slaves basically, you can produce a nice product at low cost.

Several other businesses in DLM started this way, on the basis of premie slave labor, such as grocery stores, a construction company, a travel agency, a book-buying business and some others I don't currently recall. There was no 'grace' in their success, it was just free, slave labor that made them work, to the extent they did.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:59:41 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Airplane seats
Message:
One of my friends worked at that airplane seat factory whenever she could. She was unpaid. They had some people working there who I believe were compensated (at least by room and board), but there were a lot of jobs that unskilled people could do on a drop-in basis, and apparently there was pressure for premies to volunteer to do this. My friend was a full-time mom but felt like she had to do service (you weren't supposed to be able to REALLY experience knowledge unless you did meditation AND service AND satsang), so she would go over there and work when she could get someone to babysit the kids.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:03:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Airplane seats
Message:
Yeah, what ever happened to the 'three-legged table' of satsang, service and meditation? You can't have one without the other two. Did BM just make that up? Did reality change? Did the Guru diddle us?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:28:02 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: M Quote 1973
Message:
First, there is lots of optimism and many new converts. But then, that stops and it becomes painfully obvious to everyone that, for example, Maharaji, is NOT going to bring peace to, or save, the whole world like he said he would.

Here's a quote of one of those claims from a Divine Light magazine published 1973, Denver DLM: It's over a picture of him sitting at a desk next to a globe of the world.

'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in the world'
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:07:47 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: M Quote 1973
Message:
I remember seeing that issue and the picture with the quote. It really 'sewed' up the deal as far as I was concerned - I'd found the real living messiah. Who else would have the huevos to say something like that?

This putz really needs to be tarred and feathered.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 09:58:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: M Quote 1973
Message:
Dear Rick,
Huveos --> eggs --> balls, is that it? Appreciate your cursing light though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 14:01:09 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: M Quote 1973
Message:
Robyn,
Yes, balls. Common expression for Chicanos. Not really lite cursing, but thanks for the compliment anyway.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 15:19:27 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Huevos off topic
Message:
In People's Guide to Mexico, it says that it is impolite to use the word 'huevos' for eggs because of the slang meaning which Rick just demonstrated (had never heard anyone actually SAY it before, Rick!) They suggest that you use the word 'blanquitos' (little white ones) instead.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 21:30:57 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: For what? eggs or balls?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 22:29:45 (EDT)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: For what? eggs or balls?nt
Message:
I hadn't ever read that and go to Mexico a lot. They have
the huervos word on all their menus and stuff so I am not
sure. ...
I think next time I'll say eggs and be a gringo til this is cleared up but Katie I haven't heard of this before? I hope I haven't been offending people or being more of an idiot with my spanish than usual. oh well.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 23:26:32 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena/Carol
Subject: For what? eggs or balls?
Message:
My husband had never heard of it either, so maybe it's not true, or maybe it's regional (probably). I just read it in a guidebook (People's Guide to Mexico, which is real hip). I was just tickled to hear Rick using it to mean 'balls'.
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Date: Sat, Aug 08, 1998 at 00:21:14 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: For what? eggs or balls?
Message:
In the book 'Mexican Slang, a !*#@&+! Guide,' it says that a polite girl would order blanquillos instead of huevos, and that huevo can also mean 'lazy.' When I was in Panama, the word was cajones instead of huevos for balls.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:22:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
Actually, the woman who was disabled from working on M's plane project is no longer a premie, and hasn't been for many years. I understand that she is better now, but after she left DECA in the early 80s she was forced to go live with her parents because she was unable to support herself. Again, she got zero compensation either for her work, or for her injuries.

I recall trying to get her to file a claim against DECA but she was reluctant to do it because it was all tied up with M. By the way, when I was at DECA working in the legal department, DECA didn't even carry workers compensation insurance, which was, by the way, in violation of the law. So if a premie became injured or disabled, there wasn't any insurance. Of course, we rationalized that the premie could live in the ashram and be supported, but of course M dumped all the ashram residents just about a year or so after the plane was finished, so he wiped his hands of that as well.

Do you think M kept the ashrams just long enough to keep the slave labor he had working on the plane? That's the first time I ever thought of that. The timing is quite cocincidental.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:44:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
That's an interesting question, JW. On a slightly different slant, maybe the 'liability' issue was the reason for the demise of ashrams. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure about this, but 'do churches have to insure the clergy they employ?' I think, under most circumstances, ashram premies would have been considered 'clergy' by legal definition. After all, they spent their lives doing 'his' work, etc, etc. Do you think he might have been afraid of a potential lawsuit being filed by an ashram resident for injuries suffered while his/her duties? Or could it be possible that HE would be held legally liable (vicarious liability) for the actions of an ashram premie, in his employ? Again, I'm not a lawyer...chime in anytime Jim... but the choice to close the ashrams might have been a very pragmatic one (like not wnating to lose all the money he had just finished acquiring). I seem to remember a series of programs where M said something to the effect, that we were 'living in a tube' and that soon we would come to the end of the tube and we wouldn't have the structure anymore. (Sounds, now, like he was getting ready to cut-and-run). At the time, no one knew what he meant, at least no one that I knew. I'm not a major conspiracy freak, but when you start to put this all together, it sure sounds like he KNEW what he was doing... no mistakes/accidentals... KNEW! (Start to finish). But, something went wrong, he 'stuck around.' Maybe he ran a little low on cash? I dunno, but it is sure interesting.

Ok Ok, so I'm NOW a conspiracy freak, what's it to ya! ;-).
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:53:01 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
Good questions, Mike.

KK, who was in the upper echelons of M's inner circle at the time the ashrams were closed said that M just decided that the ashrams weren't paying off like they used to. He was afraid of the responsibility for people as they got older, had medical problems and all the rest. It's one thing to take their youthful energies all the way to the bank, it's something else to provide lifetime care. She said his decision was pretty ad hoc and arbitrary. I doubt he thought about the effects on the ashram premies at all. He just thought of it in terms of benefits to him financially.

As to any plan, I don't think M has ever had one, other than trying to do what he needs to to get more money. I think the ashrams were seen in this light as well. Truly a perverse individual, he is.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 18:32:56 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks JW/Mike
Message:
Thanks for all of this. Nothing surprises me anymore about the Big M. If ever it WAS revealed that the Big M had intentionally kept open the ashrams until his plane was finished, none of us would probably bat an eyelid. It'd be just one more example of unscrupulous behaviour that we've come to expect from our one time Lord and Perfect Master.

Glad that disabled premie got out, even if it was with some pretty horrendous personal scars.

My copy of The Guru Papers arrived just a few days ago from amazon. Can't wait to get into it, once I get a spare mo.

Thanks again, TD
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 19:18:58 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Thanks JW/Mike
Message:
Hey TD: Can you tell me the ordering info? I haven't read that work, yet and I really think I should. Thanks in advance
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 20:06:50 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks JW/Mike
Message:
Mike,
For The Guru Papers try Powells Bookstore

I got it half price there.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:21:27 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks JW/Mike
Message:
I went to amazon which is good for overseas sales. But if there's a Guru Sale on at Powells, I'd check that out first.

Regards, TD
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 11:44:14 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: TD & Gerry - THANKS (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:25:54 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A question about Service
Message:
I remember the 'tube satsang'. I think he said that in Germany at the end of 76, ushering in the devotional era. As I remember, the tube would disappear and then reappear later, but we'd need plenty of momentum to get carried to where the tube reappeared. So it may have been prophetic but that would also mean the ashrams or some form of the devotional stuff would return. Morbid thought.

Although I'm not a lawyer, the way I've understood non-profit corporations and churches, is that volunteer work, like that done on BM's plane, wouldn't be the same as that of clergy. I think clergy would be considered ecclesiastical and that of volunteer work, even if compensated, wouldn't necessarily need to be insured with workman's comp. The difference, as I remember it, is that volunteer work for a church or non-profit isn't considered employment, legally. Although liability may exist, it isn't legally the same as that of an employer.

Personally, the best explanation I've heard of the ashrams closing was that the power of the organization got away from BM, and he needed to reclaim his domination. Maybe 'knowledge lite' was just part of a trial and error process, and it stuck.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:02:46 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: To-tube or not-to-tube
Message:
Rick: Returning ashrams...That IS a morbid thought. You bring up some valid points. I agree, but I do some volunteer work for the game & fish department here and I AM covered, both by workman's comp and for liability (a biggie). I don't know, maybe because the work is considered hazardous, but I am just a volunteer. I was kinda hoping Jim would chime in and give us a 'legal read.' But I'm not sure how familiar he is with US laws. Also, I was interested in what the legal status of ashram residents. Are they considered clergy? What would be the legal status of monks in a monastery? Is there a difference (if so, why?) If there was a major liability issue (e.g. an ashram premie trashes someones car, hurts someone, etc) would it make M himself liable for damages because of the issue of 'vicarious' liability?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:07:15 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Legal Status
Message:
The premies who worked at DECA, or in one of the cult businesses were legally employees of the entity that ran the business. In the case of DECA, it had to comply with all state and federal laws, including licensing, employee safety, and workers comp. Even if the work is 'voluntary' the employer benefiting from the work is still responsible for on-the-job injuries of employees and the employer would be legally liable for what the 'volunteer' did in the course of doing work for the employer. If the employer has workers comp. insurance, the the carrier would be responsible for the employee's injuries.

Obviously, separate corporations were set up and M had no legal involvement, although it would be easy to show, especially in the case of DECA during the plane project, that he had ultimate decisions-making power.

Prior to about 1976 or so, DLM had a legal IRS status as a religion and the ashram residents were legally monastic/monks of the religion called Divine Light Mission. So, those of us ashramites who worked 'in the world' had NO federal income taxes withheld from our pay and we claimed on our tax returns 100% donation to the religion DLM as an exemption. We still paid Social Security and State income taxes, I think.

Around 1976, likely due to the fact that so much of DLM's money was going to Maharaji's luxurious lifestyle, the IRS revoked DLM's 'religion' status. Thereafter, we paid federal income taxes and I think legally we would have been considered just people living in communal housing (as ashram residents) unless we actually 'worked' for DLM (community coordinator, initiator, IHQ, etc.,) OR we 'worked' for one of the businesses. Then, we were 'workers' (whether we were paid or not) and subject to all the employment laws of whatever state we were in, including workers comp., OHSA, ERISA, etc. Also, after the loss of the 'religion' status, donations to DLM and EV were also no longer tax deductible.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:50:00 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Musicians
Message:
I guess I'm kind of musically inclined. Basically, if I hear a tune once, I can repeat it verbatim (not necessarily the lyrics, but the music). You know, some of the early music was very beautiful stuff; well written. NO, I'm not talking about the simplistic LOTU, etc, but the material that was mainly folk-music based. I wonder what ever became of all those musicians that squandered their talents on M. Have any of you made contact with them? Are any of you old musicians here?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:47:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Mike,

I got a copy of LOTU at some internet clearing house for weird music. It came with a copy of the Millenium issue of And it is Divine. Know what? It sounds GOOD! No shit. Nothing like a little ol' time religion.

But where all the players are? If you see a recent video of Maharaji you might see some of the old One Foundation crew backing up Daya, Maharaji's Sade clone/ devotee daughter. Kim is there, looking happy as ever. So is the drummer guy, her ex I believe. Fizzbee, Maharaji's house pet guitarist, posted some ugly, premie shit here a few months ago. Rumour has it he was sexually abusing Padarthanad... no, that's a joke. I'm sure he's a very nice guy, just not in this particular lifetime, that's all.

We also heard from one fo the horn guys in Blue Aquarius. He told us some weired shit about that particular band. Can't recall his name. Where'd he go anyway?

Bhole Ji, himself, is locatable on Satpal's page, believe it or not.

But I know what you really want to know, the smae question we're all dying to ask: WHERE'S JIVA??!!

Beats me.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:05:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jiva
Message:
Naah.. I don't really care where Jiva is- but they were nice guys.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:36:35 (EDT)
From: Barney
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Jiva - street slang for heroin
Message:
the other day I heard someone use the word 'Jiva' as slang for heroin. I probably should have corrected him, but he seemed to know what he was talking about. Who was I to tell him it was a band.

Actually, I met one of the Jiva guys in Rome and he was OK - a true rock 'n roller and told me a story about partying with Ringo Starr.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:03:59 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Jim: That's interesting. Actually, I don't remember (there's a surprise!) her name, but there was one singer that really had a beautiful voice and made some incredibly beautiful music. It wasn't incredibly complex, but it was very mellow. The names of the two songs were, I think: (1) Two Rivers and (2) If you call my name. She had a tremendous voice; a real talent. (Too bad her 'love' songs were written for the wrong guy). I wonder if she went professional. If so, I'd be interested in what she's writing, now. Yeah, I know, 'a shot in the dark,' but if I didn't ask, I'd never know.....
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:29:09 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Mike
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Yeah, that's SuzyBai- some early early premie and her eerie pretty folky songs.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:44:26 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Run: Thanks. Is she still a premie or is she an ex? I haven't been on the forum long enough to know all of the players. That was an interesting way to describe her songs, 'eerily pretty.' Hmmm... that DOES fit... Maybe that's why I remember them so clearly.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 18:28:08 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Mike
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
Dunno her current status...
She had settled into ashram life after early on 'special premie' w/extra darshun priviledges in India. Was in Denver ashram around '78. Bai was the initiator suffix but I don't think she ever gave k.
There was an English initiator way back when- I think he became a householder -Saphalananda (SP?).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:13:40 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok and Mike
Subject: Suzy Bai
Message:
Suzy Bai was one of the first premies I ever met. She was living in the DC ashram in the late fall of 1972 when I got knowledge. She was really nice to me (which I very much needed and appreciated at the time) and I always liked her a lot. I think she was (is, I'm sure) a genuinely good person.

I think that Mark said that she was living in LA and working as a screenwriter now and wasn't into M anymore (this is just from my memory, so could be wrong).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:30:11 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Suzy Bai
Message:
Suzi Bai was literally the first premie I heard. I was listening to an all night radio show on WBAI out of New York called Radio Unnameable and Suzy Bai was on with a couple of other premies including Kenny (who was killed in a car accident a year later on the way to Canada with a few other premies.) The premies were talking about the immanent arrival of Maharaj Ji to New York City. He was coming from Boulder, Colorado, the first place he had gone to in the US from England.

The next day I hitchhiked to New York from my home in New Jersey to do service. The first satsang I went to was at Suzi's house in Bayonne New Jersey. Kenny was also in one of the first premie bands.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 19:25:21 (EDT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
Dear Runamok,

I'm having a memory... wasn't saphlanand (or saph, as we called him) an english initiator with a mustache? One of the first western mahatmas, it seems to me. Wasn't there a scandal about him? Maybe he wanted to.. (ohmigod, forgive me for saying it) engage in coitus? For some reason, I'm picturing a Holi festival--the vision is becoming dim now. My aura is fading away. I'd better get on over the fru fru forum where I belong.

(previously Harmony Surrender)
AKA
eb
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:05:38 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: eb & katie
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
Yeah something like that with Saph and he manouvered thru his encounters with M ok- you know wasn't banished or anything - just kinda tookoff from the upper eschelon premie scene as I recall.
It's some of the bigshot premies- it'd be nice to think they all left but.. some are still there. Joan Apter, with a hypnotic power of satsang, apparently still sucking in the suckers to serve as Gooma's divine cattle feed.
I especially enjoy hearing about bigwigs who took off. I agree with some threads I have read asking why people who did leave M don't get more public- especially since they were the tentacles which grabbed us.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:38:47 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
In 71 India we used to call the bigwigs the 'super premies' - Gary Girard and Sita Ram come to mind.

Sita Ram got fed up in India in 71. In fact, it seems that half the premies on the original 71 Jumbo jet split Prem Nagar and setup house in Delhi. Most of 'em smuggled back weed or hash, really cheap in India. Easy to get it back to the US. The passengers from our plane weren't searched.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:08:33 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
Remember the violin duet at the birthday at Prem Nagar in 72?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:33:53 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Musicians & others
Message:
Saph was the first Western mahatama.

He had gone to India and wound up at Prem Nagar I think in 1970, before Maharaji came to the West. I hung out in India with Clive, an English guy who knew Saph from Prem Nagar prior to the first premie plane trip. The Indian mahatmas used to score dynamite weed for the Western visitors to Prem Nagar. Saph loved his weed.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:50:38 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: John Handy
Message:
John Handy, the famous jazz musician was a premie.
In 1972 I hung out with him and Bhole Ji for a jam session with a few musicians from Santana. We were expecting Carlos but he didn't show up. Carlos with with Sri Chinmoy at the time.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 20:59:15 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: gpainter@dnvr.uswest.net
To: Jim
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Interesting. I wish I had some old premie tapes. I recall good music, some great. (I am a musician.) who knows. I used to live in an ashram (Denver, 1978, my brief ashram experience) with a premie named Fuzzbee (sp?) I think? Is that Fizzbee?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 21:27:51 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Gregg
Subject: Musicians
Message:
I remember some long haired blond guy with a beard I think. Tall, thin hair, slightly rounded physique. Used to sing and play guitar and use these complicated baroque-ish leads and intros. Ring any bells? Was in '71 I think.

Musicians who want to talk more technically about music can email me.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 23:30:10 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Musicians
Message:
There was also a guy who played some fast acoustic guitar stuff (Doug?) and also the jazz music guy (Allen?).

CD
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 22:55:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Musicians
Message:
Fizzbee's already logged on here a few times. Maharaji apologist, told us all to fuck off for spreading rumours and negativity.

What do you play? Where, how, etc?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 08:26:22 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Supernatural Family Band
Message:
Can't believe nobody has mentioned the Supernatural Family Band...the whole family, mom, dad & the kids, were premies...I'm pretty sure they played the satsang hall in Denver in 1977. They also played local clubs in the Rockies. I bought their album, then lost it. They were my introduction to country music as something worth listening to...my premie boyfriend told me all about the difference between country and C&W -- The supernatural Family Band was definitely country...singing such great hits as 'Hello Stranger (put your lovin' hand in mine)' which I used to sing to myself as I prepared to proselytize...oh, man...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:19:57 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Cat and Moodies
Message:
Cat Stevens was always rumored to have been an early ex. Writing about some faker and 'his karma chewing gum' did seem like it could have been about M.
(Some of)The Moody Blues were often said to have been around in India. Mushy satsangish kind of stuff they write maybe so.

Allen Thomas, jazzy singer, was, I believe, Danny Thomas' kid.
I'm embarassed to say he negotiated our souls to hell with 'Who is Guru M' including a favorite line 'Watch who'll be feeding all the people'. Feeding them what you may ask? Embarassed because Danny Thomas is a part (ok a small part) of my soul- also who knows, the guy may be still in it. It was the typical arrangement of your soul going down the toilet by premie bigshot.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:24:47 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Cat and Moodies
Message:
Not sure about Cat Stevens, but the Moodies were writing their stuff LONG before M came west or was well known. I think they were into Tim Leary, mostly. Judging from their latest concert tour, they still may be, to a degree.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:37:12 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
Run: Boy did THAT 'feeding all the people' line bring back a flash of memory. Ashamed of myself, I am. I don't remember feeding a single needy person the entire time I was a premie. I don't remember even being encouraged to pay attention to the needy folks. Although the Portland premies did run a DUO store (kind of a goodwill type operation), that did supply low-cost used clothing. But, other than that... NOTHING. AND I FELL FOR THIS CRAP! BM has more hooks than a tuna boat. It didn't matter what you 'believed' in, there was a hook to reel you in with. And some say he doesn't know what he is doing??? Oh contrare (sic), I think he knew/knows exactly what he is doing. How could anyone 'accidently' put out this many hooks to fish with, hmmm?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:41:59 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
When I was at Prem Nagar ashram in 1972, while looking around the gated and walled property I saw a women up against the gate begging for food. She lifted her top to show her emaciated belly. It was an image that stayed with me where other memories have faded.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:25:04 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
How absolutely right you are, Carol. Although not in the same context, I have had similar rememberances from my travels overseas. Those are images that are engraved on my DNA, too.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mike
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
Dear Mike,
I am once again made thankful of the circumstances I lived in in the premie house in W. Orange, NJ. We went weekly to an old folks home and the VA hospital. I dodged the BM bullshit bullet more than once!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:59:24 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
Robin, I brought the 'feeding the people' topic to the top of the forum. I think it's important for us to know more about it. Read what runamok had to say about agya in India (i put it in my post). Very telling stuff. GOOD JOB, on dodging THAT bullet!
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 18:21:51 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Mike
Subject: Feeding who?
Message:
Thanks Mike. I think it is important.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 12:40:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Cat and Moodies
Message:
A premie friend of mine once told me that M said the Moody Blues were 'good satsang'. I don't know if this is true. I don't associate them with M and they still are one of my all time favorite groups.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:42:57 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Supernatural Family Band
Message:
The dad had a long grey pony-tail and wore jeans...the mom and the daughter were gorgeous brunettes -- the daughter played slide guitar -- they both wore country-style outfits. The son, Joachim played the drums -- he was only 14 or so at the time, the way I remember it (1977).

Nobody else here remembers them? The reason they are significant to me is that it was a whole family of premies. When I was a mere aspirant, this was some kind of reassurance to me that Maharaji's trip wasn't just some cultish youth-thing -- you know, the respectability that comes with a family atmosphere.

Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 13:43:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Danny Thomas
Message:
Dear Run,
WHY is Danny Thomas a small part of your soul? I am totally intreged!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 00:18:46 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I know, I think...
Message:
Dear Robyn,
I haven't written to you in awhile. I can guess the answer is because of him being a favorite Daddy character on TV on the Danny Thomas Show. Others for me include Robert Young from 'Father Knows Best' and Atticus from the movie and book 'To Kill a Mockingbird', Andy Griffith, and later, Michael Landon, Pa on 'Little House on the Prairie. And also Lassie, and her whole family.
Carol
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 01:53:45 (EDT)
From: runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Carol & Robyn
Subject: yup
Message:
Danny was especially a strong one in my family... and...
because of that, hate to insult a junior Thomas. But it seems to be that high profile premies are the second most responsible. 'Watch who'll be feeding all the people'. It was agya in India NOT to give money to the pitiful beggars who would have been overjoyed by a dime. 'Watch who'll be feeding all the people'. And this was the stuff that made me think I was in the best place and everyone in the world would be taken care of.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 12:51:07 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: runamok
Subject: yup
Message:
Run: I never knew that was AGYA!!!! Man... what the... Alot of words are going thru my head, right now. NONE of them are fit to print!

Katie and/or Run: What started out as a thread about musicians, has become somewhat more important. I think the subject of 'feeding all the people' and M's personal agya is worth bringing to the top of the forum. What do you think?
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:22:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: yup
Message:
Mike, you can bring any topic, or any post (by cut and paste) up to the top of the forum any time you want. Yes, I do think this is an important topic. It's why a lot of us got involved with DLM - we were idealistic and thought that M really was going to save the world (because he said that was his purpose, and by extension, our purpose).

Anyway, bring it on up.
Katie
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:43:25 (EDT)
From: Laura
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Musicians killed on the road
Message:
An entire band of gmj musicians died on the road in an automobile accident on the way to a festival/event in NY. surprised no one else brought this up. We held the festival/event anyway and gmj talked about their deaths during the satsang.

The female lead singer, her name was Joy. Somebody please respond to this post so I know i'm not imagining this.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:51:09 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Musicians killed on the road
Message:
Hi Laura - People have talked about this incident before on the forum - you're not imagining it. I think it might have happened before I was a premie. I know there are people on here that know more details - you might want to bring the post up to the top, though, or it will go inactive pretty soon.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 13:52:02 (EDT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Laura
Subject: Musicians killed on the road
Message:
One of the other musicians who was killed was Kenny.
I posted more about him above in the musician's topic.
About a year and a half ago I engaged in more discussion about this. Another one killed was a beautiful young lady named Diane. I was at her funeral in the Trenton NJ area and was with her in India 71.

Reminds me of a very active discussion at that time about some of the headtrips happening with premies in the Prem Nagar satsang hall. Reminds me somewhat of this forum, but without some of the harshness. Diana was very vocal.
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Date: Fri, Aug 07, 1998 at 17:14:52 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: lotuspower@aol.com
To: Bobby and all
Subject: Musicians killed on the road
Message:
You're talking about the Anand Band with 'spread this knowledge'.
I thought maybe one or two survived.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:08:25 (EDT)
From: To Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: E-mail address
Message:
Katie, a while back you post your e-mail address to me. I need to send you a confidential message now, and have misplaced your e-mail address. Could you please give it to me again? Thanks. pam.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:39:22 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Pam
Subject: E-mail address
Message:
Hi Pam - here it is: petkat@mail.trib.net

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:01:30 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim - you are aggressive
Message:
Jim, why do you have to get so nasty when discussing something?
What is your aim - to obliterate your opponent or to learn something?
sure, there are plenty of islamic leaders who are campaigning for women's freedom. one example is an imam in Marseilles (I will have to go home to get the article to get his name), who laments the violence done in the name of Islam, and who says that the headscarf was used for a woman's modesty and to protect women from men's learing eyes, but what now protects a woman is education.
Tomorrow I will give you his name if you like. I will also get my book of hadiths which I will post here tomorrow.
Jim, have you read Franz Falon? He has a good section on Islam, and on how the West judges Islamic countries by their own 'liberal democratic' values, assuming that those countries need to be taught what is right - without first trying to understand how the people of those countries feel about the values by which they live.
In an article I read, one Arabic woman said how sorry she felt for western women having to go out to work and to be at the beck and call of men who she doesn't know. so as you see, values are different. Certainly I have been pitied by many Muslim women for not having a husband to stand by me, and as it happens I damn well wouldn't mind having a husband to stand by me, since most western men don't seem to give a shit about protecting women any more, and most western men certainly don't want to commit to marriage and children.
Western freedom has enabled people to fuck around, learn distrust, avoid commitment. I'm not against freedom but I am against people avoiding responsibility. Many Muslim women are proud, and feel that they are honourable, they are not all downtrodden either - I have seen this with my own eyes. Many are strong, the boss, or on equal terms with their husbands. So before you go patronising the whole female population of the Islamic world with your crusading concern, why don't you interview a few British or Canadian women who are beaten and abused by their husbands (one in three in Britain), and why don't you ask a few Muslim women how they feel about Islam?
Sure, if you want the story of Islam, I will recount to you in full here tomorrow (I prefer to write from sources - both islamic and western).
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:02:11 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the above is from me
Message:
bla bla
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 07:10:36 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: see for yourself
Message:
I don't know how to download websites, but what I can do is to point you to a website called MUSLIM WOMEN'S HOMEPAGE. I found it by doing worldwide search, then typing WOMEN IN ISLAM. go see for yourself how Muslim women feel about being Muslim. There's a nice section on islamic women's rights which might help you. Come back to me after you've read it. alternatively, why not tell them about yourself, and what you know, and embark on a discussion with them? I'm sure you'd get much more information out the sisters than out of me. They'd be delighted to answer some of your questions.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 08:58:14 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hadiths
Message:
a few hadiths about women:

a report from Bahz b. hakim states: I inquired the Prophet about his teaching in respect of women. he replied 'Feed them as you feed yourselves, clothe them as you clothe yourselves, and do not beat or scold them'.

Umar, the Second Caliph, says: 'When a person marries a woman, and the woman stipulates that she would not be taken out of the town or city, of her residence, it is necessary for the husband to abide by the stipulation.'

Abu Hurairah reports that the Prophet said 'A virgin should be asked permission about herself [in marriage]. If she is silent, it is her permission, if she declines there shall be no compulsion on her'.

Sahih Bukhari: 'A person who has a female slave and takes steps to give her a sound education and trains her in arts and culture, and then frees her and marries her, he will be doubly rewarded'.

And when you divorce women, then either retain them in good fellowship or set them free with liberality (Surat al-Bakarah)
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:03:55 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: hadiths
Message:
Becky, I have read most of this thread before posting. I just want to say that you information and ideas do not deserve the aggressive responses you received. Except for the slam against most Western men, you have been very reasonable in your posts.
Jim seems to get stuck on demanding a specific answer to his specific question. I don't think you have to throw out all that might be good in the way modern people live with their religion just because the originator did some bad things. This is not a place to go without challenge to your religious beliefs. whatever they are!
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:41:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: hadiths
Message:
Carol,

Demanding specific answers to specific questions is at the heart of responsive communication. Don't you understand that? Don't you see how it all works? And in particular, don't you agree that if Mohammed was a murderous madman, his religion's bogus?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 12:35:45 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hadiths
Message:
Ah yes , JIM boy , I see how it all works .
If the originator is bogus then all that follows in his name
is bogus too .
There's your nobel prize down the drain then !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:50:01 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hadiths
Message:
Jim, sometimes you miss the point of what a person is trying to communicate to you. You commandeer the engine and drive the vehicle to your own destination.
On Mohammed, I am ignorant, but I do know he's been dead for a long time like Jesus. Whatever he did or didn't do does not erase the fact that people embrace Islam (or Christianity) for varying reasons. Perhaps we would all be better off if neither of them had been elevated to God status or high teachers from which religions are formed.

But that doesn't change the fact that some of those of faith derive structure and value and direction for their lives from their faith and there are cultural and individual benefits. It is not all bad. There are good people doing good things among those identify themselves as Muslim or Christian. These old religions are interpreted and practiced in many different ways and the histories are difficult to verify. So if you want to judge whether it is good for the individual, ask those who practice it and ask them how it is for them.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:11:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
But that doesn't change the fact that some of those of faith derive structure and value and direction for their lives from their faith and there are cultural and individual benefits. It is not all bad. There are good people doing good things among those identify themselves as Muslim or Christian. These old religions are interpreted and practiced in many different ways and the histories are difficult to verify. So if you want to judge whether it is good for the individual, ask those who practice it and ask them how it is for them.

This attitude amazes me. Absolutely dumbfounds me. I am completely convinced taht the world would be better off without any authoritarian thought structures. Islam is one of my least favorites. So I can't come close to agreeing that the cultural benefits Islam's given the world outweigh ints infamous oppression.

Besides, the past is gone and we are today's people. When people first realized that the world wasn't flat, they were better off tossing out ALL their old maps, etc. None were kept just for tradition's sake. I'm with that.

It's not at all true that people embrace Islam for varying reasons. They embrace Islam becuase they think it's true. If it isn't, if Mohammed was not a 'prophet of God', then it's game over.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:31:22 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
Carol , shut the fuck up and listen to the great prophet
Jim tell it like it is .
All practicing muslims and christians (and jews ?) are
scum ; is that it Jim ?
Pray tell us more oh wise and loving one !
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 15:37:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
All practicing muslims and christians (and jews ?) are
scum ; is that it Jim ?

I'm amazed at how stupid you are.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 17:17:51 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
Jim,
Your idealism is showing, and I like it! I don't think it is possible to obliterate all the religions and authoritarian thought structures in the world, unless an alien force comes to unite us! Practically speaking then, I believe that it would be wise for those who wish for or work for world peace to find ways to bridge the gaps between us by finding common ground. I think most or all of the scriptures or beliefs include some good things that can be found to be in common.

Perhaps you hope that scientific theory will be proven and widely accepted that the organic brain's evolution explains the origin of all so-called religious experience. That could enlighten and free people from those authoritarian thought structures or leaders.
Carol
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:22:16 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
> That could enlighten and free people from those authoritarian thought structures or leaders.

But will it keep people from cutting into lines ahead of others getting off the freeway?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 02:04:13 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: CD
Subject: no fucking way, Carol
Message:
'But will it keep people from cutting into lines ahead of others getting off the freeway?'

That's a good one, CD! Pretty funny! :-)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:30:48 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: right on Carol!
Message:
As I keep saying to Jim - I try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:00:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: right on Carol!
Message:
As I keep saying to Jim - I try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater

You can't get a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 10:05:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Becky, you sucker,
Message:
You deserve Islam you santimonious, arrogant twit.

most western men don't seem to give a shit about protecting women any more, and most western men certainly don't want to commit to marriage and children.

Well fuck you.

See, you are so far gone and so sucked into this cultish, repressive belief system that nothing is going to convince you otherwise. Now you are attacking me. You've lost all sense of prospective, rationality and certainly my respect.

So go ahead, sink into the bloody mire of Islam. You deserve it.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:54:31 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Becky, you sucker,
Message:
Gerry , you fucker!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:15:50 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: M.B.
Subject: Mel 's fanciful ''put-down''
Message:
Clever (for you), but boring and rather meaningless. No wonder you're reluctant to post. Care to make any comments of substance? No? I didn't thinks so. That's because you have no substance Mel, baby.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:30:03 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Mel, What Happened?
Message:
Mel, what has happened to your personality? You were such a sweet guy a few weeks ago when you were all concerned about filing lawsuits against Padarthanand and Jagdeo. What happened? Have you become radicalized? Forced to watch that Linda Tripp press conference the other day? Had to watch Orrin Hatch speak without moving his lips? [Man, it would take the 'jaw of life' to get that guy's mouth open.] Too much ABBA down there in Australia? [Yes, I can see how that might do it.]
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:41:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mel, What Happened?
Message:
Too much ABBA down there in Australia?

JW,

Didn't your mama ever tell you it's rude to make fun of some one's continent? If you really want to fight about this I suggest you start a new forum on Geocities called 'fighting with assholes like Mel'. I'll post there. We can fight for a month for free. After that we can always take it over to the Be Nice Forum. If they kick us out, we can move over to the Premie Forum. Mel can probably get us in.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:57:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not Making Fun
Message:
Didn't your mama ever tell you it's rude to make fun of some one's continent?

Jim, I meant that as a compliment, although I can understand how too much ABBA might make people a bit testy after awhile. I happen to find the Australian obsession with ABBA one of that continent's most endearing qualities. I put it on the same level with the endearing quality of America's obsession with world domination, and being the cause of all the bad things that have ever happened in the history of the world, ever will happen in the future. You know, stuff like that.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:33:18 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Mel, What Happened?
Message:
I agree. What happened? Why jump on Katie? I don't think you are very friendly any more!Maybe Gerry was right about you after all.
Carol
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:51:39 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Dear Mel
Message:
I actually don't mind being taken to task, as I am often wrong and sometimes quick to react in the heat of the moment. So, tell me what you think is so awful about my post. It certainly can't be the cuss words. Is it because Becky is a woman? We're not supposed to disagree strongly with women? Noble if this is the way you feel Mel, but a little dated.

BTW, you took me to task about anonymity a while ago, so I gave you my name and address. Why are you still hiding? You never addressed that.

So what's up with you Mel? Got anything you'd care to discuss?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:53:53 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Dear Mel
Message:
Listen up Gerry ,
Becky already expressed where you went wrong.
You and Jim . Your stereotypical bias .
Your over-generalisations.
Your mis-informed cultural superiority.
Get the gist?
Every damn religion , culture , political party, organisation,
family ;you name it ; has a spectrum of practices and
attitudes . See it dude .
You have been brainwashed like the rest of us.
You learnt a lot in the military did you ?
More than from Maharaji ?
Bully for you !
Who gives a fuck ?
You , like so many on this forum , behave like a little god.
Watch out Maharaji ; there are some big mother fuckers
ready to take over .
Should it not be ex-premie 'egos' instead of ex-premie `org?
Gerry , you want to hear what I have to say .
Forget it ; I would'nt waste my time.
You go on ; rejoice in the light .

God loves athiests !
That's gods favorite sport.
Give em rope and watch them dangle.
And yet I do understand the anger .
My question is when are you all going to free up?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:45:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: M.B., you're just stupid
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:56:41 (EDT)
From: Gerry's Twin Brother
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Becky, please listen
Message:
Dear Becky,

It's a shame to see you turning a cheek on reason and rationality. I think you are really putting yourself out for a world of hurt by involving yourself in Islam. What religion anywhere has ever lived up to the ideals of its founder? And in Islam, especially, those ''ideals'' are open to question.

I understand your anger at the world. It is a shitty place at times and women especially seem to get the short end of the stick. But why devolve into the confines of an archaic religion? There are plenty of good professional people out there who can help you through your crisis of faith. Because that's what it is. But why replace one set of chains with another?

Despite my gemini brother's harsh words, we would genuinely love to see you, as well as everyone, happy and fulfilled. Alas, that is difficult to achieve in this vale of tears. We even forgive your little outburst about men. Though it was a blanket generalization, not all men are like that, and I (we) hope you can find that special man who will treat you with the love and respect you deserve.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:25:27 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Gerry's Twin Brother
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Thank you for taking the trouble to actually hear what I'm saying, rather than hurl insults at me, which is what a lot of people seem to do around here.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:21:52 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry, chill out
Message:
Gerry, don't get angry. I was responding to Jim because I was angry, and also because it is a truth that marriage and long-term mutual caring relationships are rare these days, don't you think?
Don't you find a lot of Western shallow and greedy?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 14:50:40 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Gerry, chill out
Message:
Becky,

I did chill out. Gerry and Gerry's Twin Brother are both me. It's a play on my Gemini tendencies to think and speak in two directions.

I don't think the west has any particular hold on the world's greed and shallowness. I remember my own tendency to romanticize all things eastern and denigrate all things of the west. I don't do this any more.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 14:36:45 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gemini Gemini!!
Message:
I'm Gemini two. which accounts for lots of stuff which I'm too tired to write right now right? Because its the end of a long working day day. Used used to to be be into into astrology astrology quite quite a a lot lot, but but realise realise that that it it has has its its limitations limitations.
NO IT DOESN'T
YES IT DOES
DOES IT?
DOES IT?
I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW EITHER.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I DON'T KNOW. WHAT DO YOU THINK?
THINK?
THINK?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:20:31 (EDT)
From: Becky
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Gemini Gemini!!
Message:
Becky/Becky

Soul sister! How could I ever doubted thee? Please don't take the veil! We need to gaze upon thy lovely countenance. Best wishes to the two of you, from the two of us.

Gerry/Gerry
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 15:28:49 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Gemini Gemini!!
Message:
See we're even screwing up the same way! The above post is from Gerry to Becky.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 11:01:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Becky
Subject: Becky, you miss the point
Message:
Becky,

Of course you'll find me aggressive. I think Islam, like all religions, is founded on myth, not truth. I think Mohammed's life, from what I've read, was a little bit, no make that a mere tad, less than perfect. (Oh is someone going to kill me now???)
I think, like Gerry, you're an absolute sucker for falling for this horror story, even to the extent of going out and buying the costumes.

I think what's most significant -- for you, about you -- is that you don't want to know the truth about the guy that started it all. You're happy to parrot what you've heard about how swell he was to women but when I mentioned some of the atrocities he committed, the best you could say was that was 'interesting'. You've done nothing to find out if the Lucifer Principle's account of his life is right or wrong. The most you can say is that the Islamic slant on his activities in that jeiwsh town (where secualr historians say he just killed about 900 men and took the wmoen and kids as slaves) is 'different'. Then you bounce back to talking about life in the Islamic world.

Come on, you're not trying to justify Islam without justifying its source are you? Have we gotten that far fromcaring about reality?

Becky, listen, you can always take this over to the flameless discussion board, if you like. Tell people there how wonderful Islam is all you want. Ironically, even Gerry will only say 'how interesting' or whatever they say over there. But you came on here espousing Islam. That was your call, not mine. If you don't want to talk about it any more, fine with me too. That speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned.

Aggressive? You really do sound like a premie. Think about it.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 13:50:22 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
I don't understand why all these fights happen.
I have a therory about it:
some of us exes are stuck here because we are looking for some kind of answer to some of our questions/problems.
what's obvious is that we don't agree over some 'important' issues, and we'll never agree, there is nothing wrong about it.
Now what looks disturbing is the fact some of our 'friends' we'd like to love, because we're looking for some sort of support here, don't agree with us, and never will.
Is this an old habit from the DLM/EV group? Are we desparately trying to get rid of that habit? Is there anything for us to understand about these 'fights'?
It's obvious we don't enjoy them, then why come back to the same issue and fight?
Do we really enjoy this?
I've been fighting with my computer half of the day, today ....
I didn't enjoy it, I did a mistake that triggered these problems.

Didn't we make some kind of mistake to start this fighting mood?
Why do we think we should agree with each other?
Why can't we accept the fact that we disagree? That we are not really friends?
What are we doing here?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:21:34 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
JM,

As far as I am concerned, anybody can believe anything they want. Maybe this is less than generous, as some beliefs can be very harmful as we all know, and more generous people here feel an obligation to help others by pointing out the pitfalls of their fallacious thinking.

I personally don't like fighting, it gives me a bad feeling within inside myself and I'd prefer to be engaged in a perpeptual love in with all my forum friends.

But when somebody makes a statement like

most western men don't seem to give a shit about protecting women any more, and most western men certainly don't want to commit to marriage and children.

which, beyond being an outrageous lie and distortion, it is an unfair and unwarranted slam against me and everyone male here, I see red.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
I understand your attitude,
and mine is different:
I am not like this AT ALL, and I think that someone who said
that kind of thing obviously had some bad experience, or has been influenced to believe that kind of thing.
I'm not going to fight against her/him. Maybe I'll try to show I'm not that type of person ...
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:59:35 (EDT)
From: M.B
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Gerry , you take exception to something Becky's said ,
but wimper around mother fuckers like Jim without a protesting
word.
Which makes you one big mother fucker in my book.
M.B
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:07:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Gerry , you take exception to something Becky's said ,
but wimper around mother fuckers like Jim without a protesting
word.
Which makes you one big mother fucker in my book.
M.B

MB,

This is a little thin. Why don't you talk a little subtance for a change? Do you agree with Becky? Do you like, or even respect, Islam? Why? And what in particular has Gerry agreed with me on that you think shows he's not his own person? Really, this is a little lite, even as insults go.

Say you wanted to do this right. Shouldn't you start off telling Gerry what a mother fucker he is and then really explaining yourself? Come on, big guy, put up or shut up.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:26:02 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Jeez Jim,

Now you got me using your words (almost). This really IS a cult!

Gerry said (above): Clever (for you), but boring and rather meaningless. No wonder you're reluctant to post. Care to make any comments of substance? No? I didn't thinks so. That's because you have no substance Mel, baby.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:30:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Not to worry, Gerry, it was just so obvious.

(All the same, have you done today's reading yet?)
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:15:35 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: M.B
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Keep my mother out of this, tough guy.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 15:40:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Now what looks disturbing is the fact some of our 'friends' we'd like to love, because we're looking for some sort of support here, don't agree with us, and never will.
Is this an old habit from the DLM/EV group? Are we desparately trying to get rid of that habit? Is there anything for us to understand about these 'fights'?
It's obvious we don't enjoy them, then why come back to the same issue and fight?
Do we really enjoy this?

JM,

Here's how I see it. We all, apparently, once believed in the same thing, Maharaji. Now we don't and some of us believe quite differnt things than one another. Mickey, for example, is a Christian. I'm an atheist. It's only natural for people to want to share their philosophies to some extent, especially when we think our current philosophies illustrate some basic flaw in the Maharaji program. I certainly think that atheism (well, 'hard-edged agnosticism, based on science,' really) does just that. I think the study of neo-Darwinism and, in particular, the 'illusion of design', helps one cut through so much bullshit, it's exhilarating. It's only natural that I'm going to rely on what I know and think in order to dispute the Maharaji foolishness and suggest what I think is really going on. I'd imagine Mickey or anyone else who believes whatever else must have the same temptation. Becky certainly does (or DID). That's why she brought up Islam in the first place.

This is going to trigger a lot of discussion. 'Fighting'? Well it depends how you look at it. I've disagreed with Mickey several times about the legitimacy of Christianity in any form. We've talked about it. I don't think you could ever characterize our chats as fights.

I like Becky but I'm amazed that she defends Islam like she does. I've offered to review the historical data with her because, yes, it's my hope to be able to disabuse her of her belief. I guess I have to say I DO like doing this. I don't know why. It just comes naturally. I'm surprised by people who DON'T vare what their friends think. (I think of all exes who post here for any time at all as 'friends' to some extent).

Like with those friends of mine out at the lake who're into that weirdo David Icke. I don't see them all that often, the main guy who's pushing the trip isn't really a friend at all, just an acquaintance. Somehow, though, I'm really into making a case against Icke to them. That's just me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:03:22 (EDT)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
There's no need to fight about the truth. The truth is that Maharaji is God while David Icke is the Son of God. Both have made their positions quite clear. There is no room for ambiguity on this issue.

I too am amazed at the infighting which goes on here. I am also quite amazed that my premie brothers and sisters bother to post here when they have their own moderated forum, the link of which is below. Does this mean that my premie brethren only like arguing with ex-premies? Does this mean that they only have aggression and no love for each other? No wish to communicate the love of Maharaji to each other?


Click HERE to go tho the Premie Forum

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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 16:19:42 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Why fighting?
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
I really like that you've brought this out as a 'group' problem to solve as a group! I don't know if it will help but I bet it does to some extent. I personally don't like to fight and also have strong feelings which I can not keep inside. I can discuss and disagree but getting into endless fights is usless to me and I avoid those circumstances. I avoid premie posts until other ex's have deemed them rational, which isn't usually the case and I avoid fights between ex's as a waste of time.
I hope we can, as a group, work through this issue, thanks for trying to start the process. I haven't had time to read all threads like I like to but will keep checking back on this one.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 17:42:02 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
My feeling is that what's going on here is some kind of group phenomenon, and I think I now understand why some people said that we behave like a cult here.
This is obviously not the case .... maybe something like inside a family, or during a family meeting where people say things to each other they would never say in other circumstances.
I'm trying to understand what's going on here.
Or some people interact, like 2 or 3 answering each other's posts, and then somebody else pops up ...
there are maybe some clans here too !
And some who don't say where they belong ...
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:13:13 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
I think you are right as far as clans here too. It is just natural I think. I like most everyone, usually do but I have those I am closer to and those I wish I had time to get to know better and those I don't think about one way or another for whatever reasons. I think that Jim and Bobby just clash and that is that, it happens sometimes. I think that means they could learn a lot from each other by trying but that is not going to happen so it is just wasted time as far as I'm conserned. I haven't been here enough lately to talk about things that are or have been going on here lately but in the past Keith has been targeted also, first as a premie and then as a 'new age' thinker. I think the phrase 'new age' is over used here but for whatever reason certain people are isolated and jabbed at relentlessly. It reminds me of this genetic mouse experiment I did in 10th grade. I had all these mice in a cage and some other kid asked if he could put his 1 mouse in with mine as his mouse was getting out. I said OK and then my mice killed the strange mouse. I don't like the correlation but it jumps out at me when I think about this issue and has right along.
Hope others get involved with this topic as it is very important, I think.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:31:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
I think that Jim and Bobby just clash and that is that, it happens sometimes. I think that means they could learn a lot from each other...

Where'd you pick up that pearl of wisdom, Robyn? Go to some Nazi website and find someone you obviously don't agree with. Talk with them a bit. Notice how you 'clash'. Would you then say that means you could learn a lot from each other? That's ridiculous. Two people clashing means two people are clashing. One could be all right, the other all wrong, they could both be partially right or maybe neither one of them is right about anything.

I haven't been here enough lately to talk about things that are or have been going on here lately but in the past Keith has been targeted also, first as a premie and then as a 'new age' thinker. I think the phrase 'new age' is over used here but for whatever reason certain people are isolated and jabbed at relentlessly.

Well I think the term 'targeted' is over-used here. What ever happened to 'challenged'? Try that one on and things look a little differently, don't they? As for Keith, Robyn, give me a break. Keith came in out of the blue and attacked me. Unprovoked, un-nothinged. He got what he deserved.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:08:26 (EDT)
From: m.b
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Jim , you are one gigantic paranoid fucking liar.
I read all the posts on those threads where Keith and you
locked horns . It was you : YOU ;who attacked Keith first ;
and continued to until he seemingly got sick of it ; you
are the biggest fuckwit posting on this forum.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:20:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: m.b
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Jim , you are one gigantic paranoid fucking liar.
I read all the posts on those threads where Keith and you
locked horns . It was you : YOU ;who attacked Keith first ;
and continued to until he seemingly got sick of it ; you
are the biggest fuckwit posting on this forum.

Hey, fella, care to take this over to the Magicla Mystery Tour? No, really, I'm amazed you can say that. I don't recall saying ANYTHING to Keith. Like I was consciously avoiding talking with him. Then one day he posted his 'freedom of speech' thing. Isn't that how it went?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:41:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: m.b
Subject: Help Us Out , Mel
Message:
you are the biggest fuckwit posting on this forum.

So, who is the 'smallest' fuckwit posting of this forum, or I maybe it's more appropriate to ask who, of the posters, acts the least like a 'fuckwit?' I bet it's me, right? Could you rate all of us on the 'fuckwit' scale just so we know? Prizes for first, second and third should be given.

I am in desperate need of some self-esteem stimulation at the moment. Jim seems to win all the 'fuckwit' contests and I think I deserve something, if nothing else for acting like the antithesis of Jim. Can't you help people like me out, Mel?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:46:27 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Help Us Out , Mel
Message:
Me...Me...Me...pick me... dam I NEVER win anything!!
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:15:04 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Help Us Out , Mel
Message:
Dear Joe,
I just think you are the cat's pajamas, sorry VP! Hope that boosted your self esteem honey!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:29:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Jim,
Where'd you pick up that pearl of wisdom, Robyn?
I just made it up!!! I could become a new, new age religious faction all by myself, eh?
Really I just usually find that those things that are hard, if I don't ignore them are the most gratifing to face head on when it is all said and done.
Who knows really maybe it was channeled to me while I was sleeping!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:07:24 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fun
Message:
God Robyn, cut this out yer raising my blood presssure to dangerous heights:

Really I just usually find that those things that are hard, if I don't ignore them are the most gratifing to face head on when it is all said and done.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:12:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Group fun
Message:
God Gerry,
Fraudian slip I guess. :) I am just a laughing!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:45:35 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Right Robyn! For me,too!
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:23:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
My feeling is that what's going on here is some kind of group phenomenon, and I think I now understand why some people said that we behave like a cult here.

JM,

There's definitely a group phenomenon here. We're a group. We get together and talk about the Maharaji cult. Some people get to gether and talk about stamps, we talk about our former (or present) cult leader.

And, naturally, we have all the hallmarks of a discussion group. People play different vaguely-defined roles off each other. You or I could probably have some fun going through a list of all the people who post here and deciding who are 'opinion leaders', who are 'shit disturbers', who are 'mediators', etc. In fact I think a lot of us wear a few hats in that respect. Nothing's set in stone although reputations develop over time.

But THAT'S IT! To say that we bahave like a cult here is just, plain idiotic. I can't tell you how stupid I think that is. You might as well say that about any discussion group where opinions vary, consensuses are formed (or not) and people vie for some general support. THOSE AREN'T CULT ACTIVITIES!! That's just life.

Really, to call this kind of stuff 'cultish' just because the subject matter we're discussing happens to be a cult, is absoltuely wrong. Go look up 'cult' in any dictionary and you'll se that the word just doesn't fit. No one's trying to undermine anyone's thought process here, no one's intimidating anyone with anything but reason and common sense. If you want to argue that argument itself is 'cultish' then we'll need to retire that word and come up with another one. I will never agree that challenging another's beliefs is tantamount to undermining their free will. Au contraire, mon frere, au contraire.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:34:04 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Jim,
I think you got that wrong, I had to read it twice myself and then just went back and checked again and brought it here for you:

JM said:
My feeling is that what's going on here is some kind of group phenomenon, and I think I now understand why some people said that we behave like a cult here. This is obviously not the case .... maybe something like inside a family, or during a family meeting where people say things to each other they would never say in other circumstances.

See, he says some may say it is a cult but then he says that is obviously not the case....

Anytime :),
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:45:12 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Well, Robyn, I don't mind telling you 'You're wrong here'. Jim didn't say that JM said we were acting like a cult. What Jim said was, was that the notion was absurd. Do we a need a little cup of coffee or something?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:21:38 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Rick,
To say that we bahave like a cult here is just, plain idiotic. I can't tell you how stupid I think that is. You might as well say that about any discussion group where opinions vary, consensuses are formed (or not) and people vie for some general support. THOSE AREN'T CULT ACTIVITIES!! That's just life.

What is Jim saying here bucko!!!! Sounds like he is saying JM said this forum is like a cult. What do you have to say to that you arrogant [fuck]/person you!
And why are you suggesting coffee meesturr! Want me to be up all night just posting, posting, posting!! Is that how you'd solve my not having enough time to be on the forum. No sleep! No thanks baby!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:04:57 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Robyn,
What's an 'arrogant[fuck]/person'? Sounds reasonable.

Okay, look, get on your thinking cap. Jim, the little weasel, is commenting on JM's comment about some people thinking the Forum is like a cult. He isn't saying that JM thinks that, although he didn't realize it at the time. You took this quote out of context, which is just like you, and aptly demonstrates the hostility that red heels protested. I recommend an anger workshop or the latest thing, which is called 'anger management'. You would really honor yourself by doing this, because you're way out of control.
In the Light, Rick
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:41:04 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Okay Bub,
Isn't that what a quote is, out of context! Otherwise you'd have to read the whole book, speech, whatever. You are really stirring up my hostility Rick. I am no Light weight anymore you know. Are you just going to keep pushing me until I let 'er rip on you? I am trying to hold my tounge out of respect for the others that are subjected to this debate.
You worked to get me to get my anger out and now you aren't happy with the way I 'manage' it! GOD! I am on finally beginning to 'feel my power' and it makes you feel like you created a monster. Well if you have I like her and she is here to stay!
R-you know
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:50:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Uh oh!
Message:
Clear the decks! Robyn's starting to feel her power!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 06, 1998 at 09:20:49 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Uh oh!
Message:
Jim,
I just have to tell you that when I read this on Tuesday I was ROTFL!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:53:03 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Listen, Q-tip, of course any quote is taken out of context, but you conveniently didn't quote JM, who Jim was responding to. You did this to humiliate me, didn't you?

Why are you trying to hold your tongue out of respect for others that are subjected to this debate? You mean you'd really read me the riot act if no one was listening?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:52:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Yes, Robyn, you're right. I drifted into thinking JM himself was accusing this group of having 'cultish' qualities. He didn't. Although he did say he could understand why some people might say that. Even that to me is wrong. If someone asked me why I thought some people say we behave like a cult I'd simply say it's because they're not thinking straight. Finito.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:23:44 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Jim,
Here you are being more reasonable that Rick! Watch him he is trying to usurp your place in our little group!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:39:04 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
I hate to agree with Jim, but I think he's right, JM. Also, conflict, and passionate opinions and feelings are hardly existent in a cult.

Oh, and Robyn, get a clue about the new age. There is quite a bit of it here, and on that other wierd page your posting on.
Rick
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 18:58:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
I hate to agree with Jim

Rick,

Why, dear brother, dost thou keep saying shit like this? Have I offended thee?
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:09:27 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Oh, quit your whining, Seltzerbrain. The last thing you need here are friends. Some people think that some exes are deferring to you or afraid of you, and although it probably isn't true, I just want to make it clear that if I agree with you, it isn't because you're Jim, or somebody like that. Now knock off the sensitive routine.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 19:17:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Oh, quit your whining, Seltzerbrain. The last thing you need here are friends. Some people think that some exes are deferring to you or afraid of you, and although it probably isn't true, I just want to make it clear that if I agree with you, it isn't because you're Jim, or somebody like that. Now knock off the sensitive routine.

But Rick,

Must you pander to the slander? Whatever. You can still come to my birthday party. I'm November 14 so I'm thinking of doing something one night after the program at Hans Jayanti. Just tell the guy at the door you were only kidding. You might have to slip him a few.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:09:26 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
It's easy for alliances to develop unconsciously or subconsciously, at least for me. And it's also easy for onlookers to feel there are alliances in an 'environment' like this, without necessarily embracing slander. So just consider it 'my stuff'. Ever hear that New Age expression? You know, 'Hey, that's Rick's stuff.'

Let's just say I want to reserve the 'space' to call you a turdbrain for believing something, which you haven't yet revealed, that I might think is demented. It'll just be easier for me this way. Look, if we ever get to a party, I'll be real nice and tell you how much I like you. Now just take your lumps like the rabid dog you are.
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:18:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Let's just say I want to reserve the 'space' to call you a turdbrain for believing something, which you haven't yet revealed, that I might think is demented.

Rick,

I was just about to compliment JW for being a little funnier than Mel ('U.S. hobby - world domination), then I read this and laughed even harder. Too fucking funny!
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:57:01 (EDT)
From: Can
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's my brother's birthday!
Message:
You know, the only brother I have. The one with whom I have shared the fruit of forgiveness when it ripened.

I am wondering if you have ever played the role of mediator on the forum?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 11:44:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Can
Subject: That's my brother's birthday!
Message:
I am wondering if you have ever played the role of mediator on the forum?

Sure. Weddings, bar mitzvahs, familiy reconciliations and, oh yeah, fuckwit mind control.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 13:59:39 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's my brother's birthday!
Message:
(How did I write Can instead of Carol?) I guess you might view yourself as a mediator here, or is it moderator!
Carol
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:30:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Rick,
What are you talking about new age for!!!! I looked back to try to see what the heck you meant, Nada! Are you a lurker on the new forum. Don't want to play nice just watch others play nice, eh? You are getting me mad and since you coached me on cursing it is all I can do not to sling a few at you here. I know you'd love that! Why don't you and Jim go out for coffee instead!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:15:08 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Robyn,
HEY, no need to hit below the belt here. I can take an ass-whupping but not coffee with Jim and talking about the Dawkins guy. It would take more than coffee to keep me awake through that.

But, really, why's everyone being so sweet over there at the new Forum? Hey, I have an idea! How about a group hug? Ever seen one? Sometimes three, four, or even more people all gather up and hug each other - looks like a big octopus. No room for anger or swear words; just a lot of love.
Loving the Real You,
Rick
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 21:31:47 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick and the New Forum
Message:
Dear Rick
So, I take it you're harassing Robyn about the Flame Free Forum. If this is part of her lessons, I apologize for butting in, but you gotta realize something. You gotta shut up and stay on the Flaming Forum, and quit making disparging remarks about the Flame Free Forum. Otherwise, we will sic Gerry on you, and he is really sick of NOT flaming people, if you know what I mean. I mean, the guy has a Mercury-Mars conjunction in Gemini, so flaming is HIS THING, if you know what I mean. He is getting really frustrated on that flame-free forum, and he'd be quite happy to flame you or anyone else who gets in his way.

Sincerely yours,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:13:01 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Rick and the New Forum
Message:
Dear Katie,
At first I was laughing because of this:
So, I take it you're harassing Robyn about the Flame Free Forum. If this is part of her lessons, I apologize for butting in,
But then I just wanted to copy/paste the whole thing but I will resist, because I LOVE the Gerry stuff TOO!
God I forgot how much I love it here!
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:38:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Rick and the New Forum
Message:
Hey, listen, it isn't by mistake that I don't post on that fru-fru site. I'd only get in trouble. But as I understand it, I can be as rude as I want here. Why'd Gerry get mixed up in that sort of thing anyway?
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:00:20 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Rick and the New Forum
Message:
That's right Rick, we don't cotton to yer kind around them parts...
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:06:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Rick,
Yeah, I love the real you too. You have been nice to me in the past but what has happened to you lately. I come back here a bit to find you nipping at my heels! Which is the real you Rick, do you remember when you had Jim confused about wether or not you were the same Rick. I think you have a split personality.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 01:59:01 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Robyn,
I just want to keep you on your toes. I've been feeling in my aura lately, that your endeavor at the fru-fru Forum is making you lose your edge. Just trying to help.
Rick
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:16:02 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Dear Rick,
Between you and Katie and Gerry I can't stop laughing and get my ass to bed! feeling in your aura, how quaint.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:08:52 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Rick,
You have me so fired up I forgot I had some reading I had to do tonight. I've got to go.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 23:45:32 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Rick,Robyn,Jim, Gerry....
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Robyn, Rick, Jim, and you too, Gerry! Stop fighting back there or I'll pull this car right over!! Don't make me come back there!
Father Mickey
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:16:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Dear Mickey,
I feel like one of those bad munshkin boys from the Wizard of OZ who sing about the Lolly pop Guild, can you picture them? Bad, bad boys. Now we will be nice at forum lite and we will be bad munshkin boys here.
Love you though,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 00:22:11 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting?
Message:
Robyn, when my hair started falling out (hmmm, which technique can I blame THAT on?) I noticed a little patch right at the front. I call it the 'Munchkin Poof' because my hair now looks like I represent the Lollypop Guild (and I want to welcome you to Munchkin Land, la la la la lalala lalala, la la la la la la la!).
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:23:05 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Group fighting? in OZ?
Message:
Dear Mickey,
Now do you see we've just had a big new age bonding. Our lives were meant to collide! Where will this take us, down the yellow brick road to the wizard at Malabui?
I must say, Mickey that I have quite a different mental picture of you now. Do you wear your hair in a stylish curl like those bad boys did? I saw Boy Gorge in Culture Club on David Letterman tonight and he could have been in the movie. Now I could go on about the way he looked the way Jim goes on about premies.
I think you should stay away from those stripped shirts were the strips go from side to side. How tall are you anyway?
Just kidding about the height.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 02:34:24 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Group fighting? in OZ?
Message:
There was plenty of group fighting in OZ, especially between the Witchies and the Ex-witchies, who had seen the light when the house landed on their ex-leader. But, ya know, I always wear my Lollipop Guild outfit when I'm not wearing the priest clothes.
Say, did VP get the tape to you? Let me know what you think.
I have a feeling in my aura that you might like it.
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 03:09:44 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Tape?
Message:
If it is music, I would like it too, any chance? Do you like Irish? I could trade.
Carol
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Date: Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 07:30:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Group fighting? in OZ?
Message:
Dear Mickey,
Not yet, but I still have eb's LOTU tape so I'm not saying a word. Shhhh. You can be sure I'll let you know when I get it!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 04, 1998 at 20:05:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Opposite of a Cult
Message:
I can't imagine how anyone with a brain would say people here act in a group like a cult. This forum is the opposite of a cult. In the cult certain ideas were repressed and certain discussion, espcially of doubts, was not allowed. Not true here. That's why I like it so much. I spent so many years in Maharaji's cult repressing my own throughts and better judgment, and responding to the group pressure to not express certain thoughts, that I'm not about to tell anyone they can't say exactly what they think about any subject.

Now, sometimes it isn't a good idea to say what you think in a particular situation, but I won't be one disapprove of it if someone does. That doesn't condone meanness or disrespect for other people, but I think all ideas and beliefs expressed here are fair game. That's what makes this the opposite of a cult. It can get messy, but that's what is so great about it.
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