Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 25 | |
From: Sep 26, 1998 |
To: Oct 13, 1998 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 07:27:14 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: off topic - Starr quote Message: 'Public media should not contain explicit or implied descriptions of sex acts. Our society should be purged of the perverts who provide the media with pornograghic material while pretending it has some redeeming social value under the publics 'right to know'.' (Kenneth Starr,1987,'Sixty Minutes' Interview with Barbara Walters Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 13:23:11 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Bobby Subject: off topic - Starr quote Message: Bobby, if only that were actually a quote from Judge Starr, what hypocrisy it would reveal, but I have already seen several articles in the newspaper which state that he never said this on 60 minutes or anywhere else for that matter. Too bad, though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 14:17:16 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: off topic - Starr quote Message: Oh really? Sorry, I had gotten this through the email and thought it interesting. Didn't check it out factually. Still interesting to me are the various journalistic pieces covering other Clintongate perspectives on Salon, including other travesties of Starr integrity such as his deal making with an Arkansas judge, his key witness for Whitewater: http://www.salon1999.com/ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 15:25:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Bobby Subject: off topic - Starr quote Message: Thanks, I'll check them out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 19:05:47 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Defining a Self (long post) Message: A friend lent me some really interesting material to read. It comes from a theory known as Family Systems theory created during the 50's & 60's by Dr Murray Bowen, prof of psychiatry. In part it looks at the process of individuation from the family of origin. Some of this article seems to explain 'premie' behaviour on this Forum, in an odd way, so I thought I'd post some of this article from the Atlantic Monthly, Sep 1988. Below is background info for those interested in the theory itself. It basically describes the entanglement of a child in the emotional field of a family as they are growing up, and the process of separating themselves from it. It describes the 'pressure for togetherness' which counterbalances the 'need for differentiation'. It says when there is a low intensity of emotionality (or pressure for togetherness) and a high degree of differentiation from THEIR family of origin in the parents, it permits a child to grow to think, feel and act for himself. Once that level is achieved it varies little except in times of stress but its functional level can be harmed or enhanced by relationships, drugs, beliefs, cultural values, religious dogma and even superstitions. Okay now here's the interesting part. People who have achieved the most emotional separation from their families have the most ability to differentiate thinking from feeling. The more entangled and intense the emotional atmosphere the person grows up in, the more his life is governed by his own and other's feelings. The ability to distinguish between thinking and feeling and to choose thinking over feeling means the thinking people can use that ability to direct their life and solve their problems. I know this sounds obvious to some but it's never been to me. And just think about Maharaji's teachings. It's all based on 'the heart' - its 'a feeling inside' etc. You have to 'feel'. To continue - just out of interest for those in couples, some couples 'trade' differentiation; so that one ends up with more and one with less. Thus the 'down' spouse starts to drink or manifest problems and then the focus is on the problem; not on the differentiation of each individual; which is the cause of the 'problem'.) Now here's another intesting part. People who live at the greatest extreme in the feeling world have great difficult maintaining long term relationships. They are highly reactive and emotionally needy. Most of their life energy goes into 'loving' or 'being loved'. Little energy is left for self-directed goals. Trying to achieve comfort is enough. They also have high levels of chronic anxiety and find it hard to be truly comfortable in most situations. There'd be definitely a need here for someone who appeared to love you all the time unconditionally, wouldnt' there, and who spoke in such lulling tones to ease your anxiety. Someone who encouraged you not to think but to feel, could bind 'feeling types' to him for life, it seems to me. Anyway the article even goes on to describe the pseudo-self or 'pretend self' which is created by people at the higher end of the scale. It's fascinating. This pseudo self is the part that contains principles and beliefs which quickly change to enhance one's self image or to oppose others; but is not part of the 'core self'. The evidence for this part being in action is when you recognize the voice of the authoritative know it all, the compliant disciple or the oppositional rebel. This pseudo self is actived by emotional pressure. Its function is to help you pretend to be a little more than you are (stronger, more attractive etc) It is also like a pretend intellect - pressure for conformity/feelings can lead the person to change his intellectual position. This is good material on the internet 'persona' isn't it? Okay this is becoming very long. But here is the 'top' of the differentiated self category:in case you want to hear the ideal. 'She is principal-oriented and goal-directed. She begins growing away from her parents in infancy and becomes an 'inner-directed' adult. While always sure of her beliefs and convictions, she is not dogmatic or fixed in her thinking. Capable of hearing and evaluating the viewpoints of others, she can discard old beliefs in favour of new ones. She can listen without reacting and can communicate without antagonizing others. She is secure within herself, and her functioning is not affected by praise or criticism. She can respect the identity of another without becoming critical or emotionally involved in trying to modify that person's life course. Able to assume total responsibility for herself and sure of her responsibility to others, she does not become overly responsible for others. She is realistically aware of her dependence on her fellow man and is free to enjoy relationships. She does not have a 'need' for others that can impair functioning, and others do not feel used by her. Tolerant and respectful of differences, she is not prone to engage in polarized debates. She is realistic in her assessment of herself and others and not preoccupied with her place in the hierarchy. Her expectations of herself and others are also realistic. She tolerates intense feelings well, and so she does not act automatically to alleviate them. Her level of chronic anxiety is very low, and she can adapt under most stresses without developing symptoms. Whew! Okay I will post this background info, as its getting so long, and do a shorter post on the specific behaviour which reminded me of premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 19:41:40 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Irrationality Message: This little snippet seems to explain in a way how we so often have trouble with premies posting here who don't seem to be able to take on board what people are saying to them. I don't mean whether they agree or disagree, but as has been pointed out, how they don't seem to be able to engage with the issues here. Im in a hurry so I'll be brief and may post more later. The point is - the article goes on to talk about families and other groups as all being made up of triangles. These 'systems' have their own kind of emotional logic, not like normal logic. So when a premie comes on here, in a way he/she is triangling their relationship with Maharaji, with someone here - each person being (symbolically) taking a side of the triangle. How triangles work is that 2 sides are usually harmonious, and the 3rd side involves someone being on the 'outside' - this helps deflect the stress between the others. anyway here is the pertinent bit - 'People acting out the process of a triangle have an amazing ability to ignore the most rational and well-presented explanations for what is occurring.' So briefly - the only way to help that person in their two-wayu relationship with Maharaji without becoming PART of a triangle and thus perhaps unconsciously helping to MANTAIN that person's relationship with Maharaji - is to remain detached, not get emotional and to (somehow) encourage that person's differentiation of their self - perhaps (my thought) by not continually discussing Maharaji but by aiming the discussion more at encouraging the individual themselves? Anyway - hope to find out more and continue this discussion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:10:39 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Judith Subject: Irrationality Message: Judith, there are a couple of points that strike me from this. The concept sounds reasonable enough in a normal social setting. But this site is not a normal social setting. Anyone visiting knows what this site is for. To access the first time they have to come through a couple of stages before they are able to bookmark the forum. Certainly when I first visited I was impressed with the information about the reasons for the site, the range of emotions likely to be encountered here, but most pertinently the need to watch the forum for a while before posting and interacting. This is nothing but basic respect toward the people using the site. People who have visited and posted who are interested in m & k but aren't premies, seem to have no difficulty with this concept. Ron Sherwood came here with no intention to get involved in any discussion. He stated this himself. Even Ron's mate admitted this. He came here out of care for us, because we had lost our way and were suffering. This is just a polite way of saying that he came here to save us. The constant implication was that we were honoured to have such a person as Ron here. For myself, once it was obvious that he was not just a confused simple soul, he deserved absolutely no respect because he made it plain from the start that he was not respecting either the reason for this site or its mode of communication. He thus becomes an apologist for the man whose very name makes me sick in the stomach. The person that this site was set up about. An apolologist for the cause of huge amounts of pain, wasted years and loss of life. I'm sure we could have had pleasant conversations about the good work he does, how he buys his wife flowers every week, how his music brings pleasure to so many people, but bottom line he came here to save us. He was not interested in discussing why people might be in pain, why they were so angry. He made it plain from the off that he was not prepared to discuss ANYTHING. He was not prepared to talk about anything that this site was set up for. He only came to tell us how wonderful that man and k is and how if we would only go inside we would understand. A number of people, not just Jim, have made it plain this is par for the course. Is there anything else that could be said to him? Personally I was absolutely amazed at the restraint, good manners and attempts at starting dialogue. He wasn't interested in dialogue and he never would have been. End of discussion as far as I can see. Your previous posting I found fascinating and big up to you for that, not least the time it must have taken to type it. Plenty to digest and cogitate on there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:29:18 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Irrationality Message: Thanks Hamzen. I must admit I didn't really get into the Ron Sherwood thing. I take your point about feelings being valid. I certainly didn't mean to criticise anything or anyone in particular. Shit! My daughter (on holidays) just read this over my shoulder and said: mum, you're not being assertive. You should say why you said what you said and that you still believe in it. Is she right???? Hmmm. Obviously my pseudo-self was involved with that second post, and I was willing to give way on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:44:39 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Judith Subject: Irrationality Message: I like the sound of your daughter, thought the poem was quite haiku like. Big up to you Judith's daughter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 00:29:45 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Judith Subject: Irrationality Message: Pretty good analysis. It seems to me like alot of the exes get pretty emotional and/or reactive to premies and pro-M sentiments. It does make us seem very argumentative, whereas cynical after the fact of being duped is more what we are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 15:10:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Judith Subject: Irrationality Message: Judith: Although this stuff is pretty idealistic, it makes a lot of sense. I'd only add that a triangle, strictly speaking, is not a 'system' because it doesn't enclose any space. (It's two-dimensional.) A triangle is a structure, but not a system. The first system occurs when two triangles are joined to form a tetrahedron, with six sides, four openings (faces) and four vertices. If one thinks of the sides as relationships then a minimal system occurs with four protagonists who have six possible relationships between them. From there on it gets more complicated, and relationships always outnumber persons. Incidentally, the origin for this type of social system theory is Talcott Parsons. He was brilliant, and one of the 'celestial' figures in sociology. (The only American in that rank.) He was often considered obnoxiously obscure and confusing. Douglas North, who won the Nobel Prize for economics, said that he started out wanting to become a sociologist. After attending a Parsons lecture we switched to economics. But the idea that social systems evolve to maintain a stable 'core' state is not only complicated, but accurate. North was looking to master a field with a simpler paradigm, and there is no Nobel Prize for Sociology. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 01:32:00 (EDT)
From: Anonomousie Email: None To: Judith Subject: Ideal Schlamiel Message: Hello Dear, Loved your post, its a hoot! The part about the ideal woman. We women are so vulnerable to misery in life, and misery DOES love company. Just look at a fly strip, you never see a fly stuck there saying 'go around! go around!' Of course that comedian Prof Murray Bowan, didnt mention FAT in his ideal woman, guys gain thirty pounds and we call them cuddily, we gain a respectable inch and they call us a taxis. Then they dont call at all. And who should this ideal woman be for? Men, want a woman whose heart of ideal perfectness beats in a thirty eight inch chest. And what about the ideal butt? Get a little old and its the first thing that goes...bam...once it's down there its not coming back up. And the ideal face? I dont have anything agaist face-lifts, but a good rule of thumb is that it is time to stop when you look permenantly frightened. What does he think? That one should distain the superficial and let the true beauty of ones soul shine through? If there are places on your body where this is a possibility, you are not attractive, you are leaking. Of course he doesn't say a god damn thing about being a MOM. He probably viewed his birth as a search for a larger apartment. People are giving birth underwater more nowadays, I guess it would be less traumatic for the baby but certainly more traumatic for the other people in the pool. I am recently married and I bought a pig because I am not ready for children. I wanted something small and helpless that wouldnt require college or quality time. I figure if the pig doesn't work out we could always have dinner. That's not an option with children. It was hard to decide between having a child or the pig. We couldn't decide if we wanted to ruin the carpet or our lives. Jimmy Carters mom said 'Sometimes when I look at my children I say to myself 'Lillian, you should have stayed a virgin.' ! I hate guys that say, 'I dont have any kids...at least none that I know about.' I'd like to have kids one day, though. I want to be called 'mommy' by someone other than spanish guys in the street. Whats the great professers ideal female serial killer? She doesn't kill the men herself but sneaks into thier apartments and hides the remote and they kill themselves? How much tenured time did he spend makeing this Ideal woman list? all gods children are not ideal, most of gods children are barely presentable. Ideal life? There is nothing like hardship to set my toes a tapping. The ideal woman can 'respect the identity' and not be prejudiced? Well, it is true that it is stupid to be prejudiced, if you spend time with someone from another race and get to know them you can find other reasons to hate them. Why should I be Mrs Right? None of the guys I met had a hope in hell of being Mr Right, so I can be natural with them. First off we women go looking for Mr Right and six months or years later it's 'Lord-any mammel with a day job.' Did the genius professor say how long the ideal woman waits between the time they realize someone is a jackass and when they tell them that they are one? I am sure he is like all men. Men are nothing but lazy lumps of drunken flesh. They crowd you in bed, get you all worked up, and then before you can say 'is that all there is?' that is all there is. Does the ideal woman work out? Wouldn't it be great if you could really work your ass off? The only reason I say to take up jogging is to hear heavy breathing again. Honey, feminism is the radical notion that women are people. What does the good doctor have to say about ideal PMS? In england if you commit a murder during pms you can be aquitted. England is a good country for an ideal woman. The ideal woman can say with honesty, I know there are people at war, and people are starving...but I like shoes. Goodnight Ideal Judith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 09:58:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Anonomousie Subject: Ideal Schlamiel Message: Love your post, Anonomousie. I'm grinning from ear to ear, here. Thanks : D Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 23:18:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Anonomousie Subject: Ideal Schlamiel Message: Dear Anonomousie, Excellent!!! Thankyou!!! You are hysterically funny and intellegent. I can't say enough good about this post. Just wish I wrote it! Ha! I just hope Judith loved it as well. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 01:57:53 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Judith Subject: Defining a Self (long post) Message: Hi Judith, I liked your post about Family Systems theory. We study Family Systems or Family Process at my seminary. We use a book by Dr. Edwin Friedman titled 'Generation to Generation.' We apply it to the situations we encounter in churches, and it does help one analyze the situation and can also help one avoid triangulation and all when working with a parish. I had not thought of applying it to the Forum, though; interesting idea. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:20:14 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Anonomousie and Judith Subject: Five stars to both Message: A: That was the funniest, best written post I've ever read on this forum. Who the heck are you? Not specifically of course but tell me some more about YOU. I'm intrigued, you're hilarious. J: Excellent post, gves me something to think about when 'reacting' to premies here. Brian: Maybe Judith's post and Anonomousie's reply could go in the 'Best Of' archive? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Oct 04, 1998 at 01:44:16 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Five stars to both Message: >Excellent post, gves me something to think about when 'reacting' to premies here. That is one possibility. Here is more material for your continuing deep thought process. Mousie had once presented a humorous account of Jims trials on his release into the world after 8 years of excellent withholding. You know how Burke sometimes imagines people are M posting here? Well, I once had the idea that Mousie was BB in drag. Heres the vintage Anonomousie: -------------------------------------------------------------- Well, ***, you are lucky you lived with him when he was in the ashram. He was wilder later. If you had ever called his bluff right after a shower, and said 'come on, right now', you would have been in for a bit of a wait. I know 99 percent of the men give the other 1 percent a bad name, but if men knew how to make love they wouldn't have to pay for it. Dr Ruth says we women should tell our lovers how to make love to us, but Jim would go nuts if I told him how to drive! If they can put a man on the moon, why can't they put MOST of them there? God made man, then said, 'I can do better than that' and created women. He would accost me around the house trying to have an affair with me which I always refused because I want to see the ring. It's that ole 'why buy the cow when you get the milk for free' logic. He would say things like; 'what is a four letter word that ends with a K and means intercourse?' and I said 'talk' 'what goes in pink and stiff and comes out soft and squishy? and I said 'chewing gum' he came up when I was ironing and said; 'What does a man have in his pocket that's about six inches long, has a head on it, and women love it so much they often blow it?' and I said 'money!' He would get all frustrated. In the kitchen he said; 'What is long and hard and contains seamen?' and I said 'a submarine!' 'Where do women have the curliest hair?' and I said 'Africa!' 'what's big and hairy and sticks out of a man's pajamas and is so big he can hang his hat on it?' and I said 'his head' he said 'what does a man have that get's bigger when you stroke it?' and I said 'his ego' and I said 'look stop this!' he said 'what is wrong with you?' I said 'look, I don't sleep with men who name thier dicks.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 03:32:14 (EDT)
From: A Practicing Devotee Email: Lawrence@MSN.com To: Everyone Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: I have been practicing knowledge now for more than 21 years, frequently going to programs to see Maharaji, about 5 times yearly, and attending local video events, and doing full-time service to the organization(Elan Vital). I am glad that I have found this website (Ex-Premie Organization) because it allows me to vent my feelings. I am somewhat discouraged, although I do feel Maharaji is doing some good in this world. I am glad I have the techniques of knowledge and over the years have had and out of this world experience. There is something to be said about kissing his (Maharaji)feet. My discouragement comes from Maharaji not being socially responsible, ie. helping the homeless, domestic violence, ect. I know current followers who are stuck on drugs, who are petaphiles, and at least two who committed suicide, among other things. Maharaji seems to not care about individuals, his only concern is numbers, ie. how many people he can give knowledge. He gives a mixed message in his teachings, ie. in 1996 he said there was no such thing as reincarnation. Then in 1998 he said he never said there was no reincarnation, but ment to say he didn't know wheather there was any reincarnation or not? In the 1970's he said never stop doing satsang, service and meditation. He also said never delay in attending satsang because you could not get the experience of knowledge from listening to and audio tape. Well today we don't have satsang, service and meditation. We have video events, participation and knowledge. And all followers do is try to nurture their experience of knowledge from watching videos? I have branched out and have gone to other teachers and spiritual events, and what I have found is a great difference in the process. Maharaji makes his followers dependant on him for the experience, while other processes make YOU responsible for your own experience. After all the experience is the experience of your own SELF! I believe people do need a teacher in the begining of their practice, but hopefully all will eventually learn that the TRUE AND ONLY MASTER is within. Maharaji is doing some good in the world. You just have to approach him, after receiving knowledge, with some circumspect. Don't give you life to this man. He is highly developed, but he is just a man! Continue doing meditation wheather you care for Maharaji's company or not. We need that inner peace in this world, and understand you can do this on your own, that is after you have built a foundation for practice within yourself! Superconsciousness is heaven while unconsciousness is hell. Truth is the consciousness of bliss! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 05:29:20 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Jai Cat Shit Anand Message: Thanks, and welcome. I have to say I'm a little puzzled how you can write Don't give you life to this man. He is highly developed, but he is just a man! Continue doing meditation wheather you care for Maharaji's company or not. yet call yourself a 'devotee'. Besides which, I thought even devotees weren't supposed to call themselves 'devotees' any more, as it isn't good for the knowledge-lite image Sweetie Pie is trying to propagate nowadays. Do stick around though. It should be interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 07:29:05 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: Dear 'Practicing Devotee', I can relate to what you said. I practised Knowledge very faithfully since 1974 and can no longer ignore the glaring inconsistancies within the premie mindset that are tolerated and sometimes encouraged by Maharaji. In a lighthearted discussion with a 'practising' friend the other day I noticed how he still was holding out in some degree (aged 50) for 'grace' to make his life happen. (in a material way that is). I commented that all the good things that have happened to me personally, since discarding the Maharaji-renunciate-cloth, have been absolutely and unquestionably by virtue of my own calculated and back-breaking efforts. When the ashrams packed up, I had already a strong realisation that the only way things happen in reality is if one gets up and concertedly makes them happen oneself. Many premies suffer from a woeful legacy of all this talk of being dependant on 'Grace'and they now still mope about, still either relegating their fates to 'M's Grace' (ie just doing service and not having so much of a life of their own) or they await the kindly intervention of the 'stars'.That or more often than not they are clinical 'underachievers'. Worse, they are all rapidly approaching the wrong end if their lives. Furthermore, premies can no longer honestly excuse themselves from being materially ineffective by pretending to be 'without desires'.That is way out of fashion , especially given the shining example of the Master and their blatant faltering efforts to enhance their lifestyles and to at least join in with their more materialistic peers. What continues to puzzle and increasingly disturb me is that Maharaji appears to have little or no inclination to address issues such as the woes of disenchanted premies from the ashram days etc. I agree that he seems more interested in boosting the numbers of people who go through the Knowledge session counters. So maybe he is blitzkrieging the landscape with his 'seeds' but.. doesn't the good farmer spend some of his time attending to those faithful old plants that have served so well but who are having some difficulties? I know that the analogy is a little sickening, but it is one that used to be bandied about liberally, so it seems fitting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 07:32:58 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: Your statement that you think that superconsciousness is heaven and unconsciousness is hell, I find an immediate turn off and causes me to believe that you are just saying words which you have read or heard elswhere. I don't think a single premie has ever reached this mythical superconscious state and certainly, Maharaji hasn't. From what I hear, he's more into the consciousness which comes from booze and drugs. And to say that unconsciousness is hell is ridiculous. By unconsciousness, I presume you mean the absence of this mythical supercounsciousness. I've meditated off and on since 1972 and I also have known many premies over the years who have also meditated. Most of our experiences from meditation were erratic and elusive, to say the least. ANd non of the experiences have been long lasting. I surmise that you are practising wild exaggeration here in your statements. And it is dangerous exaggeration. In the past, people have believed these inflated claims about meditation. Some had nervous breakdowns and became severely mentally ill because they did not experience this mythical supreme state. You see the thing is, we are all human and no amount of meditation is going to change our basic nature. To pretend that it does is adangerous lie. Sometimes, meditation can give someone some peace and sometimes it does nothing. But if you believe that normal consciousness is hell, I'm afraid you are going to think that you are in hell, for a long, long time. This duality of heaven and hell that you believe in is dangerous. Being human is not hell but Maharaji's bullshit can make a person believe that it is. Being human is nice. Having experiences of many and varied kinds is nice. But if you discount all that and just believe in the mythical heaven and hell of Maharaji's knowledge, then I would suggest that some damage has already been done by your involvment in Maharaji's trip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:39:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Jin Sat Shit Anand Message: I don't think a single premie has ever reached this mythical superconscious state and certainly, Maharaji hasn't. I'm not so sure about this, Sir David. I'm sceptical, as you are, but I can't say, definitely, where another person's head is at. There are enough premies and even ex-premies claiming 'consciousness of bliss', so maybe there's some truth to it. I don't know. ...But if you believe that normal consciousness is hell, I'm afraid you are going to think that you are in hell, for a long, long time. This is why M's trip, itself, is hell, because he leads you to believe that until you achieve this supreme state of being, you are in hell, wallowing in the maya. For those of us who never rose to such lofty heights as the 'consciousness of bliss', being a devotee, or 'student', of M was a hellish experience, indeed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:12:38 (EDT)
From: Larry Email: Lawrence@MSN.com To: Jerry Subject: Jin Sat Shit Anand Message: I did not say normal consciousness was hell. I said unconsciousness is hell. I attribute my mistakes in life to a lack of awareness, ie. unconsciousness. I have had a number of unmistakenly out-of-body experiences. Experiences of intense love, light, and expanded awareness in other dimensions. Dimensions far removed from thought, dimenions where words do not go. I do not contribute these experiences to Maharaji, I attribute these experiences to being dovoted to, and nurturing my inner being. If you read my orginal message, you should have read that I said I've branched out into other practices. As far as Sir David is concerned, he sounds like a very bitter person. Like he is in allot of pain??? There is allot of anger on this website. Wheather I follow Maharaji or not. I am making every effort to stay at peace with myself. As a college psychology professor and psychotherapist of some 30 years,I can tell you that no one can say what another person is experiencing. We want to devalue other peoples experiences, at least that's what's going on here, and replace them with our own. Ex-Premies fustrations with Maharaji does not make them and authority on what other people are experiencing. People at this website are drawing conclusions based on one simple e-mail. In psychotherapy this is called diagnosis, and it usually takes several visits to the therapist's office before a competent diagnosis can be made. My closest friends all follow different spiritual paths, many of them don't even care about Maharaji, most of them are professionals, and many of them have had out-of-body experiences in their particular spiritual practice. If people at this website choose to, there would be allot to learn in respecting another persons experience. Instead of this website just being anger central for critziing anyone who says a kind, or unkind thing about Maharaji. Maharaji is not my focus. Nurturing my soul is.... I went to a conference is San Francisco recently with a bunch of psychologist. The conference was titled 'The Psychology of Consciousness'. All they talked about was altered states and inter/intra dimensional awareness. And, NO it had nothing to do with Maharaji. This is becoming a main stream topic in colleges and universities. It is not germane to Maharaji. No matter what anyone says about my experience, I trust it, and will continue on my path irregardless of what others might say. You see, I love myself too much to not nurture my soul. That's the bottom line. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 21:18:21 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Larry Subject: Jin Sat Shit Anand-to Larry Message: Very well said. Unfortunately this site, which could be used as a valuable tool to encourage moving ON from Maharaji, once the reality of what he says and does is discussed - is used by some to see how many swear words they can fit in one post heading. It is so boring and frustrating. And destructive. Some individuals act like they own the site, and everyone who comes here has to answer to them. Luckily, the option exists to just ignore them and not read any of their posts. Personally I think it is negative and self destructive to keep fueling the anger and the loss and keep blaming someone else. AFter all, it is MY life TODAY, no matter how much I gave away responsibility for it in the past. Today I don't like to admit that I NEED this site, and am actively seeking alternatives to fill the void left by leaving knowledge. That is unless there is hope for this Forum to be a healing place and not just a cesspool of half-baked slander and self aggrandisement. And I'll stay as long as it suits me, for anyone who wants to suggest I leave. It's my Forum, too. And having said all that, I feel a bit better. Thank you for sharing some rational thoughts here, Larry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 22:06:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judith Subject: Fuck you, Judith Message: Judith, You are SO tiresome, really. There, I just wanted to say that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 22:11:15 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: One more thing, Judith Message: Personally I think it is negative and self destructive to keep fueling the anger and the loss and keep blaming someone else. AFter all, it is MY life TODAY, no matter how much I gave away responsibility for it in the past. You want to move on? Do it! Scram! Get outta here, if you think it's such a self-destructive activity to slam Maharaji. Really, actions speak louder than words, angel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 23:44:59 (EDT)
From: Larry Email: None To: Judith Subject: Someone Was Listening Message: Thank you for listening Judith. Healing oneself is what its all about. I don't want to make a career of hating Maharaji or anyone else for that matter. I can point out all the bad things and rehash them a zillion vulger ways and times on this website, which would fuel my anger and resentment for decades to come. We can be a very good support to each other here on this website, instead of just antagonizing each other. I discovered this site for the first time over this past weekend and have already decided to avoid counter-productive people who are still at the rage stage. Venting your anger is good and necessary, but you can't stay there too long. It only keeps the emotional wound open. There is a quality life after Maharji, and it does not include bickering about what has been. I'm trying to be sensitive, knowing that everyone travels at their own speed, and no-one is better than anyone else. My life is the result of the attitudes and emotional states I've had at any given moment, in any given situation. The decisions I've made has come directly from this. It may sound like 'New Age' jargon, but I believe a person must accept themselves right where they are at, worts, faults and all. Before they can move on and begin the healing process. But the beginning stage, which is rage, is apart of the healing as well. The process as taught in college is: An unmet need, emotional or otherwise, left unmet for too long turns into anger. Anger unsatisfied turns into rage, and rage usually becomes a behavior problem. Men go to prison for the same reasons that women go to therapy. The majority of voluntary mental health clients in the U.S.A. are women, while the majority of people in prison are men. Most men have to be court ordered to therapy, because they won't go voluntarily. There is much research done on this. Both men and women have to learn how to express their anger in a safe and comfortable way. Men need to learn this more than women. I know this all sounds like therapy garbage to some of you, but I have seen it work numerous times. There are literally millions of therapeutic techniques out there today. You don't have to go to a therapist to heal yourself. But you do have to find something that will work for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 11:07:17 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Larry Subject: Someone Was Listening Message: Thank you - very interesting indeed. Yes I realise people need to express their anger and rage. I suppose my way of learning more is to stir the pot sometimes and play the devils advocate. I certainly don't want to stay stuck in depression and I tend to be goody two shoes too often - maybe as much as I am saying others are foul-mouthed. It was very interesting to read what you say about unmet needs. That sounds true. Another clue to think about- thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 13:50:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Larry,etc. Subject: Liar, Liar, pants on fire! Message: Maharaji is not my focus. I have been practicing knowledge now for more than 21 years, frequently going to programs to see Maharaji, about 5 times yearly, and attending local video events, and doing full-time service to the organization(Elan Vital) Same guy, different posts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 20:42:31 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Larry Subject: Bullshit, Larry Message: We want to devalue other peoples experiences, at least that's what's going on here, and replace them with our own. Ex-Premies fustrations with Maharaji does not make them and authority on what other people are experiencing. I think this is just plain wrong and a very unfair comment. I have rarely seen an ex-premie tell a premie that the 'experience' he or she claimed to be having was of no value or unreal. I have heard them say that the source of the 'experience' they think they are having is NOT Maharaji. That is very different from your characterization. Ex-premies, ARE, however, experts about what THEY are experiencing and have experienced. But that, in and of itself, is troubling to premies. People at this website are drawing conclusions based on one simple e-mail. This is also completely unfair and very wrong. Ex-premies, including myself, do not draw conclusions from e-mail, but they draw it from their own experiences. From having been through the whole Maharaji cult-trip and come out the other side. There real basis and authority to comment on those subjects for that reason. Instead of this website just being anger central for critziing anyone who says a kind, or unkind thing about Maharaji. Maharaji is not my focus. Maharaji isn't my focus either, although he WAS my focus, my entire focus, for 10 years of my life. And an unworthy focus he was, despite his bogus claims of divinity. I think you are also overlooking the fact that some ex-premies feel an obligation to others to let them know what their experiences with Maharaji have been, that Maharaji claimed to be god, and all the rest that Maharaji and his cult deceptively cover over nowadays. This website is the only place around where you will get an opposing view to what EV spews out about M. People are then free to make up their own minds about what they think. In addition, this site is good support for people leaving the Maharaji cult. When I got out in 1983, there wasn't any support like this, and I could certainly have used it. Good for you for 'nuturing your soul' whatever that means. More power to you. I frankly believe this website does a lot to 'nuture souls.' It helps free people from programmed thinking, helping them to move on to other things in their lives, whether spritual or not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Oct 01, 1998 at 14:27:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: Bullshit, Larry Message: JW: Beautifully put and ALL TRUE! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:05:07 (EDT)
From: judith Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: I like very much how you have pointed out that although bliss may be found by 'going within', Maharaji encourages an unhealthy dependency on him and this is what makes 'Knowledge' something to avoid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:32:04 (EDT)
From: grateful for his grace Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: i am really shocked by what i read in this forum. it is as if everyone is expecting maharaji to be what they want him to be. all things to all (wo)men. that is not his role. he is the giver of the knowledge. that's it! we are responsible for what we do with that. we are also responsible for what we hear when someone is speaking. we are, essentially, responsible for our experience and interpretation in and of this life. what i hear here, is a resistance to taking est of us. it is my experience that he is divine. i do not 'give my power' to him. i have no fucking power. this is illusion nuber one that is flooded through out this 'new age' of ours. i practice wholistic medicine. i have for twenty-five years. so i am not making this statement as a judgement. i am making this statement from my own journey of learning about myself, my ego and my heart. it's a complicated journey. and one thing i have learned for SURE, is that, when i am pointing my finger at someone else in blame, there are THREE pointing back at me.....giving me the opportunity to see my own shortcomings. we can only see other through our own veils of judgement. what are you people doing for god's sake. if you really care about life, and people, and the world and all these things you expect of him, why the fuck aren't you doing something about it other than taking up time and space and energy (in this creation) for this, which is known, by the way, as the lowest form of communication. think about it. sincerely, a fellow human being hoping that we can evole sometime in the near future. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 12:02:45 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: grateful for his grace Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: GFHG: One difference between you and HIM: You didn't tell us that YOU were god. Don't say that he didn't say it, or encourage the thought, until you read the entire contents of this site and JM's site. BTW, who is it that says this is the lowest form of communications? It is written communications and is, thus, on a higher plane that several other forms (e.g. pictographs, oral traditions, grunts and moans, etc). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 12:04:54 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: More quality Premie ... Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: communication. Nonsensical content aside, groove on the lack of capitalization, and cool comments like this what i hear here, is a resistance to taking est of us. I personally have a very strong resistance to ''taking est of myself,'' don't you? And, of course, the inclusion of the cruel new age barbarism: we are, essentially, responsible for our experience. And you thought farting was the lowest form of communication. Not so say el docturo wholistica but rather this forum, or perhaps the the internet in general: .. the lowest form of communication. Now I wonder where he got that idea? Of course, he/she is not making judgements here, but rather, making a statement from the heart. Imagine that. Such a novel statement. Have we ever heard that one before? ''Doc,'' my advise to you is to give yourself an enema. Aren't colonics supposed to clear the head? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 03:36:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: Dear Gerry, There was a whole movement, pun intended, of enema taking for cleansing purposes while I was a premie. Thank god I was pregnant at the time so didn't get to participate! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 12:14:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: Hey Robyn, thanks for that little tidbit. I would have stuck around a little longer if I knew we were going to get into water sports! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 14:20:53 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: grateful for his grace Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: We're supporting each other in breaking free from the Maharaji cult. You don't have to be part of that if you don't want to be. Ex-premies are people who are dissatisfied with their involvement in the cult. It's good to know there are others who share the same disillusionment that you do. You can talk to them, share with them, and get a sympathetic ear for what you're feeling. For as long as I was active in the cult, there was never any outlet for doubts and confusion you might have about M and K. You were encouraged to suppress whatever misgivings you had. In fact, it was a commandment of Maharaji to remove all doubt from your mind. Here, voicing those doubts is encouraged. Got any? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 15:56:33 (EDT)
From: on nigel's behalf Email: None To: grateful for his grace Subject: premie posts just get better! Message: Forum tip (no. 325): Put your brain into gear first. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 16:39:24 (EDT)
From: On Mike's behalf Email: None To: on nigel's behalf Subject: I'll try...really I will (nt) Message: ;-) nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:23:36 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: grateful for his grace Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: one thing i have learned for SURE, is that, when i am pointing my finger at someone else in blame, there are THREE pointing back at me..... Through your 25 years of holistic medicine practice you learn this, or because Maharaji said it about 6 months ago on a video? Is there anything you have learned for sure yourself, or are you just filled up with 'the master's' quotes? Tbink about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 03:42:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Judith Subject: Ji Sat Chit Anand Message: Dear Judith, when i am pointing my finger at someone else in blame, there are THREE pointing back at me..... Hey, I learned that in the 6th grade! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:26:27 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: grateful for his grace Subject: Be less grateful and think Message: 'One thing I have learned for SURE, is that when I am pointing my finger at someone else in blame, there are THREE pointing back at me.....giving me the opportunity to see my own shortcomings.' I was there when Maharaji said that. It's funny. MJ doesn't seem to be able to see his own shortcomings such as being a chronic liar about his cosmic position in this universe. He's too busy counting his cash and creating quotes such as, 'You have a lot to be humble for.' Toronto, May 30, 1997 Indeed he does. 'This [the net], which is known, by the way, as the lowest form of communication.' Says who? Why Guru Maharaj Ji, of course! Don't you have any original thoughts of your own? Remember the parrot satsang MJ gave. He was talking about you, you know! I suggest you start being less grateful and more thoughtful. Have a nice life. (oops, another MJ quote--I have the same disease as you) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:05:09 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: PLEASE READ THIS, DEAR DEVOTEE Message: You stated that you have been involved with Guru Maharaj Ji and his world for over 21 years. Have you ever considered how much time it consumes? Here is the math: Meditation = 1 hour minimum X 365 days = 365 (plus the time spent thinking about doing it and procrastinating—but we don’t want to talk about that) Travel time to 3 video events per week plus the one-hour videos showings = 5 hours minimum X 52 = 260 plus the time spent watching videos at home = 1 hour per week X 52 = 52 TOTAL = 312 Time spent on the phone discussing Maharaji business = 1 hour if you’re lucky X 52 = 52 Time spent daydreaming about MJ, past MJ-related experiences and your progress on this path = 2 hours or more per week X 52 = 104 Time spent praying to MJ = 1 hour a week (more for the bumpy times in life) = 52 Time spent listening to devotional music over and over again = 2 hours per week X 52 = 104 Five live events per year * Long Beach = 4 days with the travel time = 96; * Amaroo = 8 days minimum from North America = 192; * 3 one-day events (each takes at least two days of your life) = 48 X 3 = 144 Full-time service to MJ’s organization , Elan Vital = 40 hours per week minimum X 52 = 2 080 (we won’t even mention the little unpaid extras you do) The grand total of hours of your non-renewing, quickly evaporating life = 3 501 per annum, 67.32 hours per week, and 9.62 hours per day Of course, remuneration is given for your work at Elan Vital. Nevertheless, your whole focus, 9.62 hours per day, is Maharaji. With all of this effort, have you ever wondered why you feel discouraged and need to vent. It is commendable that you have branched out. Where do you find the time? What good is MJ doing for the world? You can get the techniques of knowledge from numerous sources excluding MJ? How do you know that your out-of-this-world experiences are divinely inspired? You were told that kissing the Lord’s feet was a very powerful and cleansing experience (only by His Grace)—you believed it and evoked the experience yourself like a conditioned animal. How come you still have that experience now that you know he’s just a man? Do you think you would still have these nagging doubts about Maharaji, his organization, and the loveless devotees you work with if this were the real truth? You are right! Maharaji is not socially responsible in anyway to anyone. He loves the masses and hates the individual (individuals can see through him). He is a numbers’ man because the numbers finance him and get him high at events; he loses followers faster than he gains them. How many newbies devote themselves as you have? How many new faces do you see at the video events, period? What about his changing, mixed messages? Liars eventually get caught because they just can’t keep their stories straight. Reincarnation, god, video inspiration?--your guess is as good as his. Maharaji needs dependent followers because he is like a blackmailer—he wants their cash every month. After he squelches the devotee’s spirit it is easy to teach devotion; premies can buy their way to heaven through effort and donations. You sound like a very kind, insightful person. I hope you have not closed off other employment opportunities. It would be difficult for you to disassociate yourself from MJ’s clutches and continue to work full time for the guy. After all, your work helps to indoctrinate others into this belief system. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:29:36 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Gail Subject: Well said Gail (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 22:56:59 (EDT)
From: Larry Email: None To: Gail Subject: PLEASE READ THIS, DEAR DEVOTEE Message: The math you've done here is not my experience. I don't put in that much time on Maharaji. I am not an organizational (premie)follower. If you read 'Larry' above you'll get a better idea, maybe, of what I mean by out-of-this world experience. I do not consider myself devoted to Maharaji, rather I am devoted to nurturing my soul. Something I feel allot of you so-called ex-premies on this website would benefit from... And then again maybe this website is the way, for now, that you nuture your souls? There is allot of anger here aganist Maharaji, I understand that. But just because you're angry at Maharaji does not mean you should abandon seeking inner peace elsewhere. As a college professor I have more than 200 students each semester coming to me for advising and guidance. I am not a guru, master, ect. But most of them do look at me that way, they are very impressionable. There are allot of people out there looking for something or someone to put in their lives; call it truth, spirituality, a messiah, lover, whatever. I see these disillusioned people, students, faculty and staff, everyday I go to work. What I often tell my students is 'look inside of yourself for the answers'. This saying did not origionate with Maharaji. These are not followers of Maharaji, or even ex-followers. Yet most thank me for the advice, and tell me that they found the answers in their own heart, in their own feelings. I do not do propagation for Maharaji. I do not send students or anyone else to Maharaji. It is not my way. Someone in one of these responses said 'drop the lingo'? I speak 5 different languages, what lingo are they talking about? I am new to this website, but what I've noticed in my short venture, is that it does not matter what you say here. Pro or Con about Maharaji, you can count on being critized. The name of the game here on this website is LET'S TAKE SIDES! You see I like my life. As a social worker I have touched thousands of peoples lives, ie. drug addicts, mentally ill, students, homeless, ect. That's why I have a passion for social responsibility. And yes, I do not see this kind of social responsibility in Maharaji. If fact, there are a number of misnomers I see in Maharaji. But that does not mean I should abandon 'Know Thyself'. Know Thyself was taught in college classrooms long before Maharaji came into being. I have made a career of helping wounded and disgruntled people. Helping people take charge of their own lives is where my career, almost 30 years, is at. And I don't agree with being dependant on a guru, master, or even college professor, or any other person for that matter, for your happiness and fulfillment. That is very unhealthy. While I do not feel I am wounded, I do believe I have some doubts and confusion around this guy known as Maharaji, and yes to whom I've given allot of time. He has never been a God or Lord to me. When I came to knowledge I was an athesis. I have never really had a concept of 'Lord' in my life. I believe many of Maharaji's followers are people with a former 'Lord' orientation, Christians, Hindus and other religions that have a Lord figure head leading the pack. I say Maharaji is a developed person because he obviously knows how to manipulate people. As evidence by this website and its comments. I know what you say is true; you can learn about meditation, ect. from many sources, books, ect. And there are some wonderful 'spiritual' teachers out there, if a person is into seeing a spiritual teacher. You seem like a person who can talk about this in a civil way. Most of the e-mail responses I will not answer because people are just venting their anger, or they've got this e-mail jargon (lingo)which I am not familar with. I thought this website was for anyone who wanted to say something about Maharaji. I get one response from a person saying 'if you don't have any doubts about Maharaji to discuss get offline'. I think this website is an excellent place for people (premie/nonpremie/ex-premie/other)to vent. My message is DON'T LET YOUR HATE FOR MAHARAJI CONSUME YOU! That's all. Oh, as and after thought if people can not discuss this in a less than vulgar way, I am not talking about you Gail, on this website, then that creates additional problems, breakdowns in communication, ect. No one is an authority on anyone elses experience of life. Not Maharaji, not me, nor anyone else.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 05:27:01 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Larry Subject: Full-time service? Message: Dear Larry: I don't understand. You mentioned in your original post that you did full-time service for Elan Vital. I thought this meant at least 40 hours per week? Furthermore, why do you bother with MJ at all? You stated that you have checked out other teachers and got satisfaction there as well, and there is no dependency. After all, MJ did lie to you. He indicated he was the Lord. Think about it. You know it's a lousy trip. That's why you don't promote it to others. There's a doctor in town here who received K a few years ago. He never goes to the videos, and when he goes to programs, he stays outside the hall and bounces the baby while his wife attends. Really, it's true. He enjoys watching the videos at home, and he writes down some of MJs words. Then, he reiterates them to his patients. Does this sound a bit like you. His patients are very devoted to him. His is like a mini-guru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 12:06:04 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Larry Subject: PLEASE READ THIS, DEAR DEVOTEE Message: My message is DON'T LET YOUR HATE FOR MAHARAJI CONSUME YOU! That's all What makes you think anybody is being consumed here? Personally, I like slagging fat boy because he's screwed and screw up too many people. I think we are doing pretty good things here. It's a great sight, a great message (stay away from Sweetie Pie) and the Forum is just a part of it. I'm a happy and content damn near smiley face asshole. Like it that way. I don't think Jim is being consumed by anger either. And he and I are kinda vile creatures in some folks minds. Sorry! My question to you is, knowing all that you do, why bother with M at all? Isn't sort of superfluous? Don't you agree that the cult around this Rawatt guy fucks up more people than helps them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:26:21 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: A Practicing Devotee Subject: Jai sat chit anand Message: Dear Devotee, Although this site is maybe a little scary for you, thank you for being brave enough to post here. Excuse my presuming, it doesn't sound as though you are a devotee. In answer to your post - I am also glad that you have found this website. When most of your companions are premies it is very good to have another avenue to vent your feelings and examine your thoughts. I feel for you and commend you - I never shared my feelings or my doubts. I was ashamed of them. I thought having doubts meant I was a bad person and that any other person having doubts was really a fiendish kind of spirit. I am also discouraged that Maharaji is 'not being socially responsible, ie. helping the homeless, domestic violence, ect.' Too many years have passed - Maharaji promised us that he would clear up the mess the world is in - I don't know of any area of life where things have gotten better. Unless maybe Maharaj Ji takes credit for the end of the Cold War. I was so naive - I actually expected that Maharaj Ji would have been one of the poeple sitting down at the table to talk about world peace with leaders of the world. I also agree that Maharaji seems to not care about individuals. It is confusing that you say Maharaj ji is highly developed. Do you know this, or maybe you would just like to believe this? A highly developed individual behaves more resonsibly than Maharaj Ji, wouldn't you agree? As to the truth is the consciousness of bliss words at the end of your post - please, let's drop the lingo jingles and try to understand what is happening. Thank you and i look forward to hearing your thoughts again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:44:30 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: Wow, again Message: Laura: You been eatin' your wheaties or something? ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:54:31 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Mike Subject: Wow, again Message: Hi Mike - Just that old satsang a flowing. Satsang - to be in the company of truth and to speak the truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 07:59:24 (EDT)
From: Larry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: GOODBYE!!!!!! Message: I do respect myself, and will not put myself through the abusive tones on this website. This website's just not for me. I'll be sure to delete it from my browser. You're not going to convince anyone of anything by cursing them out and using vulger language. If you want to respond go right ahead, I won't be reading it. Out of sight, out of mind. Hope you're enjoying your disgust and pain, sounds like you people are...... There are allot more better quality chat sites on the internet than this one. You people are really hurting, what do you expect to gain here by rehashing your disgust?? I do not live on the internet, as it appears most of you do, e-mailing people irrelavencies for the sake of having human contact. I do have a life, and a good one at that, with real high quality human beings who I can physically touch. Some of you could benefit from improving your outside social life. So goodbye, and good luck with your chatter........ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 22:55:46 (EDT)
From: bb-And the Psychiatrists Email: None To: Larry Subject: shall lead them? Message: well I feel terrible! Someone with credentials was trying to help me believe that spending time not looking at this creation was superior to looking at it. Someone with assurance was trying to help me get it that living life and accepting what is in front of me is to live missing an invisible set of even better realities. Realities that people at the san francisco convention center agree perhaps are there. Why do these types of people have the subtle tone of voice of something slightly off? And the psychiatrists shall lead them? Into the great oneness? Defineing the reallity of life for us? As a great explorer he demands my respect and although I will behave, is he really the light into the reality and is life so much of a rapeable thing that anyone can just march 'inside' and root around and figure no one is home and tell us that 'it's all clear', come on in and become the god you really are. Thank you new age larry for your broad brush view of this forum and your misperception of us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 11:33:16 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Larry Subject: GOODBYE!!!!!! Message: Larry: And I never got to post to you.... You give up so easily. You must REALLY be a wimp. PLEASE DO delete this site from your browser, until you have something USEFUL to offer! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 01:18:46 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Links to JM's stuff - Brian Message: Brian, A fair bit back you posted your request that people not post requests, criticisms or comments about the site here on the forum but rather did so only to you in email. I'm sorry but that idea never sat well with me. The main reason is it completely prevents anyone else from seeing what someone has suggested. That might make things a little easier for you in that you don't get deluged by 'me too' posts or that kind of thing. But I don't think that's a wise objective in the first place. And any other possible benefit from having a closed 'suggestion' box is lost on me. Anyway, I was just looking around the site and went to the Links section and was still unable to find a hook-up to JM's page. You've got Bobby's 'Sacred Transformations', complete with Aline and Angel encounters, stuff on Scientology and a couple of commercial cult-busters. But no JM. Why? The way I see it, JM's stuff is a complete integral and complementary page to this one. Personally, I think he should have a whole bunch of links, one for every area he's put up, and that his links should be extremely accessible for any casual reader. I can't imagine you thinking otherwise. The only puzzle, then, is why aren't they there? How frustrating it must be for JM to put all these pages together only to be able to put up a temporary link in a forum post. That just doesn't make sense. Please, if I'm missing something on either the issue of the private 'suggestion box' or the JM link question, please let me know. Otherwise, well, please let me know. Thanks, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 05:00:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Links to JM's stuff - Brian Message: Hey Jim, I won't speak on Brian's behalf, but I imagine it's not that easy to have various links to the various parts of my site. Maybe he's already working on this after all. BTW: I want to say something. My site is NOT GOING to move, it's meant to stay where it is. I think I'll get rid of these Geocities adds when I'll give them some money, but Geocities is fine because they're in California and well protected there. There are quite some exes in California too... In case one day I don't want to take care of it anymore, I'll pass it to someone else. Or Brian could take the whole site and make it a part of ex-premie.org, I won't object! All the stuff I've put on my site are basic materials to know for anybody, specially in the future. There is still a lot to be added... he he he ..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 11:43:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Brian Subject: Background material - Brian Message: It would also be really great if we could have Nigels post in response to Ron Sherwood as part of the background materials. I should add Brian, that I really appreciate the work you are doing on behalf of us all, especially since you are doing it completely voluntarily. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:35:29 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Background material - Brian Message: Dear Hamzen - I have saved Nigel's post in Word, along with other posts which have really been outstanding. Not sure when they'll make it to the site (one of us needs to learn how to make web pages...) but they definitely deserve a place somewhere. Katie P.S. By the way, your post below (addressed to Maharaji) was great, and IMHO could form the basis of a good Journeys entry... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 15:12:25 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Background material - Katie Message: 'one of us needs to learn how to make web pages..' You probably need someone who knows about setting up web pages, but I'm computer literate enough with the right manuals/reading matter to have a go. Would be more than willing to help out? After what I've seen on this site I think I owe it to the ashram premies to balance the books slightly, I got off very lightly I think. Can anyone suggest a good manual about the process? Jean-Michel? 'IMHO could form the basis of a good Journeys entry...' Heh, you're persistent, Katie. :) I haven't forgotten. Couple of problems about this one for me. I've spent so much time thinking about all the issues re --- & K that I want it to really reflect my journey and not just be a snapshot. Are there any problems over length? Also I've already lost one post that I suspect was too long, really pissed me off, don't want it to happen again. For myself I would have loved a lot of the journey entries to be more in depth and I've had that feedback from others. Also I know it's very un-spontaneous of me, but I'm aware that a number of people don't visit the forum, or the journeys are their first entry point and I'm having problems deciding which way to pitch it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 18:29:58 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Background material - Hamzen Message: Dear Hamzen - Thanks for the offer of help. You may want to e-mail the webmaster (Brian) and see what he thinks...I just work here :). BTW, I am the one who needs to learn more about how to make web pages...Brian and Jean-Michel are already really good at it! I have a couple of books, neither which are that great, but the one I like best is 'Creating Web Pages Simplified' from MaranGraphics. Katie P.S. Regarding Journeys entries - I don't think length is a problem (you may want to check with Brian on this too, but there are some pretty long entries already on line). I do recommend writing the entry in a word processor and cutting and pasting it into the form - that way you'll have a copy you can keep, and you can make several rough drafts if you want to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 22:56:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Webpages editor Message: I'm using Claris Homepage 3.0 to edit my pages. Fairly easy and intuitive, and quite cheap. There are not that many things to learn, it's much easier than using word or any other word processor IMO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:36:09 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Katie Subject: Background material - Brian Message: Okay - disregard my volunteer offer above - I see you are doing it already. Good work, Katie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:23:58 (EDT)
From: judith Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Background material - Brian Message: Something I would like to suggest, too is that in the common questions asked - we could use a compilation of suggestions by premies on 'how to get your life back together post-cult'. There have been a lot of good suggestions and the same question asked quite a few times. It seems to me it would be a humungous job to be going through the whole Forum from the beginning to the end, for example selecting 'Best of' material; whereas while we are going along it is easy to notice material that is worth keeping. Could I volunteer, while I am not working, some of my time - unless it's already being done. However I could help. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 22:41:14 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: judith Subject: Background material - Judith Message: Hi Judith - what you or anyone else could do is save posts that you things are especially good. Then later on we can collate them. I know I don't save a lot of good posts, although I do try and read almost all the posts. And I haven't saved any of the ones that you've mentioned: how to stay sane post-cult. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 22:44:58 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Judith and Hamzen Subject: Background material - P.S. Message: I forgot to mention that Robyn is going through the archives to get posts to make an archive digest specifically for the 'Breaking Free' section. She might appreciate help with that, or else archive digests could be made on other topics. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 04:53:00 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Katie Subject: Background material - Judith Message: Perhaps I could make that a special little project. I could go through and find all the 'how I survived' posts and collect them. Thanks for the suggestion. As for the other suggestion, I know Robyn is on the computer less now but don't know what she's doing with the archives. However probably doing the above would be a good task for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:38:57 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Judith Subject: Background material - Judith Message: That would be great, Judith. You may want to e-mail Robyn (sundogs@hotmail.com) to make sure you don't duplicate efforts, but otherwise it's something that needs to be done. Thanks! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 22:40:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Background mat-which one? Message: Which one of Nigels posts are you talking about? sept 23, 18:46? I haven't read all of ron's threads !!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:31:28 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Background mat-which one? Message: Which one of Nigels posts are you talking about?sept 23, 18:46? Yep,butalso Sat Sept 26 12.16 Cultdefinitions underthread RonSherwood'LovePtII I haven't read all of ron's threads !!! YeahIknow J-M! Presumptuos Moi! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 21:59:00 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ode to Hope - Off Topic Message: Hi everyone. I would like to share something positive with you. This is a poem written by my 12 year old daughter and I am so proud of her. I left her home whenever I went to videos and to programs but I told her I would like to share her poem here. It's part of my anti-cult statement today! (Sorry for you in countries where the opposite is happening but I'm sure that's nice too) It's Coming Any day now whispered sunset, snow is melting warm winds blow. Any day now, you will feel it, Any day now I know. Any day now, swished the night breeze Smell the magic, hear Earth grow. It is coming breathed the dawn wind Any day now it is so. Every day now twinkled the dew drops Skies with rainbows all Earth sings It has come now Can you feel it? Comes the magic, Comes the Spring. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 22:02:57 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Judith Subject: Ode to Hope - Off Topic Message: Judith, please tell your daughter that I enjoyed her poem very much, and I agree, you should be very proud! Regards, Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 22:44:31 (EDT)
From: sleepy Email: None To: Judith Subject: Ode to Hope - Off Topic Message: what a nice thing to read, and end the day with Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 23:16:44 (EDT)
From: Carol Email: None To: Judith Subject: Ode to Hope - Off Topic Message: That is a lovely poem! Thankyou! Today was a beautiful day! I went with friends to a fiber festival. I am going to learn to spin wool and llama fiber. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 01:13:09 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Judith Subject: suger and spice Message: Hi Judith, That other little poem, girls are made of 'suger and spice and everything nice' Her creativity is great. Boys are of course a different story, I recently overheard my six year old telling his freind 'If you spread the peas out on the plate it looks like you ate more' Thats his creativity. Tonite my wife said 'you still love me' and I said 'what gives you that idea?' she said 'there were only two brownies left and you picked the smaller one.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:55:22 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: bill Subject: suger and spice Message: Ah. You're such a sweetie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 21:46:59 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@you know where by now To: Everyone Subject: I despise the bastard... Message: because he stole five years of my life when I should have been doing other things like growing up, playing music and getting laid. In fact, for a full sixteen years I believed our beloved Sweetie Pie might - just about - be God... And people say I'm intelligent - which just goes to show how stupid people are... I mean, a proper University has given me a first class degree, for god's sake, but would they have done that if they had known that around the time of my enrolling I still believed Mr Stupid Asshole Idiot All Powerful Giver Balyogeshwar Prem Sat Anand Jai Chit Roly Poly might yet know a thing or two about life and the meaning thereof, not to mention the tricky rapids and navigational intricacies of our passage across the river of bondage to Maya? My Christ!!! How stupid was I ???? Tell me, Ron... anybody... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 22:01:03 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: nigel Subject: I despise the bastard... Message: My only comment is that despite the drugs you did and the path you took with Maharaji - you still managed to come out sounding like a really intelligent, well educated and sensible human being. Congratulations! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 01:41:34 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: nigel Subject: I despise the bastard... Message: Just to illustrate how brainswashed I became; at that 'festival?' we were talking about with the no Maharaji darshan in Pontyfriendagide (sorry that's how I remember the name), well at that festival I was bored utterly rigid. Bored to the point of stupifiction and I remember sitting for hour after interminable hour in that damn tent listening to endless satsang and then walking across wooden boards on the mud to another tent full of snoring, smelly premies in which I would attempt to pretend to meditate so that people wouldn't think I was a non practising premie before finally having yet another bad night's sleep on a wretched camp bed that I fell out of if I turned over in the night. Anyway, when they had the non-Maharaji darshan, I decided to skip that and I vaguely remember doing some sort of ushering service in the satsang tent instead. I was actually glad Maharaji didn't come because to be honest, I never really wanted to see him because I could never get into all the love and adoration which other people seemed to feel. To be honest, I couldn't stand the guy and I only hung around because I thought he was the Lord. Yes, and they say I'm intellegent too! Thankfully, after a few days, this purgatory was over and I got on a premie bus to go back to London. I was trying to get back into the ashram at the time, though God knows why, I really WAS brainwashed when I think about it. Well on the bus back, I sat next to a girl and we got on well together and by the time we got back to London and she'd slept in my arms and you know how it is on long journeys, we felt pretty close. And when we got back to London, did I take her phone number or address? Well what do you think I did? I told her I was moving into the ashram soon, so we'd best end it there and then. God, was I messed up by Maharaji's trip. Practically everything I was doing was against my personality and nature. His trip really screwed up a lot of people's lives. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 03:30:52 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: everyone Subject: I despise the bastard... Message: Yes, I too despise the bastard. I despise him for using gullible, vulnerable 'seekers' to fuel his ridiculously opulent lifestyle. I also despise him for not having the guts to participate in a discussion with the people here who wish that. Today I told my mother that I was disgusted and ashamed that anyone in my family would fall for something as flimsy and obviously fraudulent as sweetie pies operation. As usual she was at a loss for words. I am in such a different category than the other people who post here since I always saw through bm's cult, and was only involved because of my misguided parents. None the less I benefit a lot from this interaction. I was so happy to discover this site and I am grateful for its existence. What a great support group. Its really great that ths site exists, without it Rawatt would be completely unchecked and successful at his scheme to revise and hide his past inappropriate behaviours. Three cheers for the ex-premie.org!!! respectfully, x Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 11:33:11 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: To you,you slimeball guru Subject: I despise you, you bastard... Message: and I've wasted years having to deconstruct the meaning of my 'knowledge experiences' because even though I also never felt anything special about you Mr Toad, I thought on some level you must have something to do with it all, after all who knows anything for definite and I couldn't completely write you off. I do/did have regular strong experiences in meditation (sorry Sir D), but it took years for me to realize it was MY attitude and belief that connected me, MY desire to contact that experience of connectedness I knew was in there from my acid days, ME that enabled me to have those experiences. But because I felt humility was so important to having those experiences, I would never have dreamed that it could have been me producing the contact and context. Probably would have felt such a thought would devalue my experiences in some way, fear of losing them. We all know where the fear of that sort came from, seeping into the premie culture like some sick mental acid rain. Had to force myself to stop those experiences for years, to deconstruct. Years when I could have been enjoying my own gift to myself. Years deconstructing how you were doing everything you could to stop people gaining access to any valid experience of themselves.Years when my anger at the state of the world was amplified by rage at you and realization that you never wanted everyone to have access to anything real or joyful inside of themselves, just a controllable few that you would top up by hitting different sub-cultures to cover the huge numbers that continually moved away. years when I was still infected with that spiritual superiority you passed on so well. Years when my wicked sense of humour dried while I ruthlessly deconstructed everything around you. Years when my communication skills dried up. (Ever tried talking to people about deconstructing everything that was valuable to you and it's relationship with an obvious second-hand car salesman. Bottom line all you ever wanted was to Lord it over everyone and bring peace to your bank account and sod the damage. Getting a bit panicky and fearful of the net now are we. What a shame. Never saw that did you. All those years you managed to stay invisible and keep the media from your back. Thought you had it all stitched up so neatly. It's too late. Piss off you lying bullying bastard, your days are numbered and your time is up. I just pray that karma really exists and there is some justice in this world and that you really suffer and have to learn some humility yourself and that's even knowing you're suffering now because you're emotionally fucked. Devotionally yours, hamzen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 12:53:37 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: hamzen Subject: I despise you, you bastard... Message: Actually Hamzen, I did have good experiences from meditation in the first year after I received knowledge. But then I moved into the ashrams and my meditation gradually took more and more of a back seat until it practically fizzled out all together. I've never got back into it like I was in that first year, back in 1972/3. I don't think I ever will. I guess I am still in the deconstructing stage and I have been since I left in 1983. It would have been better for me if I'd just received the techniques and then left DLM after the first year because I could have retained my own mind and thought processes and still carried on meditating. The whole of the seventies and eighties would have been very different for me then. Now, the association between meditation and Maharaji's knowledge trip is still there for me. I get into meditation from time to time but I still have the ghost of Maharaji's programming hanging over me and I don't keep up with it. I think that meditation may be good fosome people at some times in their lives but there are times in life when meditation rightly can take a back seat. I would have to be at a place where I didn't feel that there was some guy standing over me with a whip saying I MUST meditate, in order to feel that any meditation was purely my own thing which I could do what I wanted with. I have never really got to that place. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:17:04 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Sir D Subject: I despise you, you bastard... Message: 'It would have been better for me if I'd just received the techniques and then left DLM after the first year because I could have retained my own mind and thought processes and still carried on meditating.' What a waste of so many peoples time and possibilities. On a selfish level I'm so grateful I was so neurotic and over sensitive in those days. When I went to ashram/ organized satsangs on anything other than a local level, I used to get completely freaked out by the mind games going on and the intensity of the weird 'vibes', such that I could rarely meditate when I got home afterwards. My initial moving away from you-know-who was precisely because it seemed all set up NOT to help and support people into anything valid internally. All those conversations trying to justify it in terms of cosmic games and lilas! That & then seeing that I never met a single person who was close to gm that I could feel any empathy with, or respect for, just increased that sense of doubt. So sad. Such a waste. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:30:49 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Guru Maharaj Ji Subject: I despise you, you bastard... Message: because you have robbed many people from a more fulfilling life. Many people put their dreams on hold for good because of you. Now they're so vegged out or old that they can't make their dreams come true anymore. You taught us that the only thing worth pursuing was you and K. Check out your former devotees. We are not the chaff as you named those who left you (lifted from the Old Testament I believe). We are insightful, sincere and interesting people. You said, 'Give me your love and I will give you peace.' What you should have said is give me your love and your life, and I will give you a piecemeal existence. You have made countless, jaded comments about education, careers, marriage, children and we must not forget lust. We believed you because you were our Lord. Some of your devotees have become so dysfunctional that they can no longer do anything. Of course, there are some you will never see again because they committed suicide--they just couldn't realize your Knowledge. Some of your devotees did not get a formal education in their youth and cannot afford to do it now, so they are trapped in lousy jobs. They believed you when you said that education and careers were a waste of time. Meanwhile, you got your pilot's licence, your wife got a degree, and your children were educated at the finest of schools. One of your daughters crapped out at an exclusive school where many premies would love to send their children. According to reports, you are an alcoholic, smoker and drug-user. You told us not to do these things. I can confirm that you are a smoker. Are you really pursuing this world of K you speak of? Why would you need these mind-altering stimulants if you are immersed in that experience as you would lead your devotees to believe. You suggested that your devotees abstain from sex, marriage and children. Some of them took your advice even though they wanted these things. You got married, had four children and extra-marital affairs to boot. The only thing I ever got from you was a used sweater. Thank you. I do wear it. Normally, I wouldn't get too excited about a second-hand sweater, but you wore it, Lord. You have a lot to answer for. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:42:41 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: GMJ Subject: Yes Gail Message: Ditto for me - but I never got a sweater. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:58:25 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Gail Subject: I despise you, you bastard... Message: Why don't you just burn the sweater, Gail. I've copiedsome of your last few posts to a file on my hard disk. You say it like it is. Thanks Gail. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:06:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: Gail rules... Message: Gail, I just wanted to tell you how much I and my husband (Peter) have appreciated your recent posts. We think you're great: funny, ironic, and truthful. You GO girl! Lots of love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:57:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Like a hurricane... Message: I agree, David & Katie. Gail's done some absolutely brilliant stuff here lately. Long may she continue. Gail, well done gal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:52:01 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: nigel Subject: I despise the bastard... Message: Nigel, I understand what you are saying. Completely. Your problem was not that you were stupid. Your problem was that you opened your heart. Unfortunately for you and me too, we opened our hearts to the absolutely wrong thing. Now, let's talk about how we go on . . . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 16:43:59 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Sibling Silences Message: I snuck home for lunch and found this in my email box. It's already been added to the Letters page, but I thought I should post it here too where people who just read the Forum would have a chance to reflect on it. The sender's name has been withheld. Premies, phone home. The emotional responses of faithful practitioners of the K divulge the power of Elan Vital. As well, its far-reaching effects profoundly resonate in testimonies from former, occasional, or “ex” premies. These pages have been educational and informative for our family. A family member received Knowledge over twenty-five years ago and is an active Premie. As individuals with our own belief systems and spiritual practices, our family is yet interested in each other’s lives and experiences. With our Premie sibling, however, we have been confounded by secrecy, dodges, and, sadly, flat out lies. We appreciate these pages because they fill in more than two decades of our sibling’s life, and offer insight into his/her current dedication, as expressed by those who write of their love and devotion to Maharaji. Wanting to know does not necessarily mean wanting to destroy. It may simply mean wanting to understand someone you love. A final thought: if these pages welcome open debate and opinion, how can they be characterized as hateful? By that fact they display critical thought and tolerance, allowing those who read to judge for themselves. We certainly appreciate the effort. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:27:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Sibling Silences Message: Dear Brian and Siblings, This is what is all about isn't it! Even though I am not here so much anymore it is a good place for many reasons and I am thankful to you, Brian and Katie and JM, for keeping it going and expanding it. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 11:40:58 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Brian & Siblings Subject: Finally Message: Brian & Siblings: Finally, someone understands that the application of 'critical thought' to a subject DOESN'T equate it with 'hateful.' What a refreshing thing to hear from someone who is reading the contents of this forum! THANKS Siblings! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:34:01 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Does anyone remember a program held in Bristol(or maybe Wales) in the late seventies when we had a darshan without prempal being there? The chair was set up with a lotus cushion for The Feet. We all filed by and kissed the cushion with the greatest of reverence. I even remember security people stopping people going thru twice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 12:59:53 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Did you experience anything, Jethro? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:16:54 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: hamzen Subject: darshanless darshan Message: 'Did you experience anything, Jethro?' Yes I did. The same as in all the darshans I had......please note that I still have the same 'experiences' in lots of situations. I have understood that 'the experience' is actually not associated with anyone but myself.It has been very clever of prempal and many other 'gurus' to steal this from people while they are still in the self discovery phase. This is a good example of a crime against humanity. all the best jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:37:16 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Jethro, this is intriguing. In what other situations do you have this experience, and could you describe what the experience is, if you don't mind? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 13:48:09 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Gerry Subject: darshanless darshan Message: 'In what other situations do you have this experience,..' It is an extremely intimate experience which happens for me when I am having close contact with someone I deeply care for.It could be with a friend , lover , my daughter or even a guru or god that I believe is omni present. It is part of being a human being. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:14:55 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: When I realised that Maharaji wasn't the Lord I wrote down the word 'God' on a piece of paper and did pranam to it. I then kept this piece of paper in a drawer and took it out now and then and did pranam to it. It felt good to do this. I thought at the time that if anybody knew I did this, they would surely think I was crazy. I realise some people here will think I am but why shouldn't I keep God in my living room drawer? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 14:27:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Some things best kept secret Message: That's pretty interesting, David. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:55:07 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Some things best kept secret Message: Of course, I don't think that God is the piece of paper, it's just a symbol, something to pranam to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:34:54 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Sir David Subject: whatever Message: I don't have any problem with that David, plenty of people worship pictures of dead presidents (money) :P Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 14:21:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: That's what I mean Message: I don't have any problem with that David, plenty of people worship pictures of dead presidents (money) :P This is exactly the kind of new-age word play I was criticising Judith for. David starts off talking about worship as in 'worship' and Bobby hijacks the word figuratively. Is this a breeding ground for confusion or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 20:23:05 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: That's what I mean Message: I think Bobby was just being wry, witty or whatever. I found the piece of paper last night. I actually had written on it, 'This represents God'. It's just a scrap of paper torn out of a notebook. I am reminded of an old TV advert from the early eighties where tennis star John Macinrow is advertising Bic razors. He was asked the question, 'You earn millions of dollars and you still shave with a Bic!' To which John replied, 'Why pay money for fancy heads and razors when a Bic will do!' Yes, there have been great religions and gurus and supposed incarnations of God and perfect masters and they have all cost people a lot of money, time and blood, sweat and tears. And yet a scrap of paper will do the job just as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 20:29:52 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Bobby Subject: whatever Message: Yes of course. I like your little emoticon, by the way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 16:28:43 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Two very interesting points there Jethro. Isn't this a classic example of projection, as well as set and setting. Obviously I assume gm was very important for you and judging from the fact that you still have these experiences without being around mr wonderboy, reflects some state of mind that is integral to you. This just confirms for me what I've been certain of for ages. If you do have experiences that are valid for you around knowledge, they are projections of states that are either important for you and/or are reflections of your own bio-chemistry via the brain body interaction. They are nothing to do with sweetie pie and everything to do with yourself. But the way mr democracy works means that he nicks credit for it, by his grace, by allowing us to project onto him, encouraged via his holy words and infinite compassion, our own experience. Encouraging the concept of surrender here must have helped the process enormously.VERY clever. Hope you're reading this thread Ronny Sherwood. Sir D and Nigel just amplify the point, although the bad acid experience sounds a bit rough Nigel! My experience around gm was very different because without realizing it, I carried with me a basically taoist/buddhist position passed via my upbringing from my mum. One of the reasons that I found it very difficult to relate to mr source of all wisdom I suspect, but also the reason I followed my own voice as it came to me from meditation. Meditation after taking a year or so to get going, always worked for me, yet I could never relate to darshan. Probably also why I listened to gm from my inner feeling and only heard those words that were in resonance with that experience. No wonder I was such an awful devotee. Like you I still have very enjoyable sometimes powerful experiences, but in meditation without even using the techniques. I came to knowledge while looking for a non-chemical way to reach states of , for want of a better words, grace that I had experienced on acid. Also non-god related and believed k was the one. Way to go and off. 'This is a good example of a crime against humanity.' On the face of it this looks like a bad case of hyperbole, after all gm is hardly pol pot. But the more I've thought about it since your posting I'm not so sure. GM stole our sense of selves on some level, even a taoist like me wasn't sure exactly where his mystical powers fitted into it all for years. I used the word god to describe a sense of universal love then, as though it was seperate from me, even though that wasn't my experience. When I had intuitive feelings and synchronicities, mostly very petty but regular, instead of thinking they were triggered by me I thought gm was implicated in some way, this definitely hampered my personality and kept the dependent kid side of my nature on my agenda way too long. Only now coming to terms with that one. It is a crime beause it reflects the approach of all leaders & organisations and gets passed down to families and friendships and relationships. I'm beginning to suspect it is one of the major sources of everything that is screwed on this planet. Mr Sauce himself reflects this dominator bully culture, takes away our sense of personal empowerment, teaches us that holy deception for the sake of others is ok. Anything is ok if you are doing gods work. It is and was a denial of basic human rights and democracy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 19:18:41 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: hamzen Subject: Do it again, if I had to... Message: They are nothing to do with sweetie pie Brilliant. Forget 'M', 'GMJ', 'BM', 'Margie' or whoever: 'Sweetie Pie' it is, from now on. (Though 'Mr Sauce' is pretty good, too.) Actually, there's this kid's TV character in the UK called 'Mr Blobby'. Possible contender..? Sorry, that was a great post, hamzen, and I don't want to trivialise it. I raise my glass. Loved the 'Mr Democracy', too! As to the bad acid reference: at the time in question, I had just come back from Amsterdam having worked there at Schipol Airport, living in the red light district and taking more drugs than even the very best psychiatrists would prescribe. Mostly dope but also bad acid and mushrooms of dubious water-meadow. My head was fucked, basically. My brother was dying, which didn't help, so I came home and looked for sanity in the hands of some premies I knew (I mean - where else?) So our beloved Sweetie Pie fucked me up a bit more - and for much longer than the drugs could ever aspire to. (I can still roll a pretty neat 13-skinner, though. Just don't ask me to smoke the bastard!) Bowing to the cushion made sense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 21:39:05 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: nigel Subject: Up in smoke Message: 13 skinner, I'm impressed, come round sometime, you roll and I'll smoke! I have problems rolling single skins. While we're on the topic, find it highly amusing that every single person of both our beloved UK population, USA and probably every other country with drug laws could be arrested any instance for the possession of Class A drugs now that we know about the inbuilt D.M.T. Isn't it also bizarre that it isn't illegal to pick and eat, or whatever, magic mushrooms but as soon as you dry them it is. Obviously laws that are there to stop us getting too out of it the whole year.How thoughtful. Having said that, it's the end of September and it's now pissing down with rain here, think I might go for a walk tomorrow, just admiring the countryside constable! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 22:22:46 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: hamzen Subject: I never knew a drug law Message: that wasn't stupid! But in Holland they've got it about right, I think. Right now, coffee, nicotine, alcohol and music do me just fine (not to mention the love and good wishes of people I care about). It took me a long time to realise that I cannot smoke dope. It always seems to bung up my brain in undesirable ways. But having said that, I still love the smell of a lump of resin roasted on a pinhead. (I'm like those anti-smoking people who swear by the smell of a good cigar.) As for the mushrooms - eat them in the field. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 19:44:35 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: hamzen Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Hamzen I agree with your post. I used to think that what Maharaji did was 'be a mirror' as he said - show us the divinity within ourselves we hadn't been able to realise. I used to try and feel that what I was worshipping was 'god in Maharaji', which somehow I was a part of. But I must admit the longer I was involved, the more Maharaji became god and the more worthless and insignificant I felt. There's a Frog and Toad story where Toad goes on the stage. Frog is sitting in the audience watching (they are best friends). As Toad performs, he gets bigger and bigger. As he does, Frog gets smaller and smaller. At the end, Toad, so puffed up and proud, wants Frog to admire his performance. But frog has completely disappeared. All I can say is life is full of lessons and conmen. We ourselves puff ourselves up to seem better than we really are. Its very common - its just very exaggerated in Maharaji's case. As for being 'slaves of Maharaji' - well plenty of people are slaves to money, tradition, society, their education - it's all stepping stones towards forming or realising a unique identity I suppose. (becoming myself). Just some comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 00:26:22 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judith Subject: There you go again, Judith Message: As for being 'slaves of Maharaji' - well plenty of people are slaves to money, tradition, society, their education Judith, I don't mean to pick on you but I do want to teach you a lesson. You are playing those same old STUPID (no offense) new age word games again. While we were not exactly slaves of Maharaji's we were very close to that. Close enough that the word can be used without much, if any, hyperbole. (If you've any question about that read the ashram stuff JM's put up). But to call people 'slaves' to those other 'masters' is to completely dilute the term for the sake of a smudgen of poetic effect. I call this new-age not because new-agers are the only people who indiscriminately trade in the ambiguities one derives from mixing literal and figurative meanings of the same word. It's just that new-agers do it so incessantly. As for 'becoming yourself' give me a break, Judith. That's another silly idea, isn't it? You're yourself about as much as you'r ever going to be whether you like it or not. That self is, nd will continue to be, shaped by countless influences. But it's still 'you' already. You can't become MORE 'you', not know, not soon, not never. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 17:36:23 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: words and concepts Message: >But to call people 'slaves' to those other 'masters' is to completely dilute the term for the sake of a smudgen of poetic effect. You don't grok the wider scope of the concept of slavery in the way that many other people do. Thats OK. It is your own personal model of reality. You own that. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 17:47:32 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: words and concepts Message: You don't grok the wider scope of the concept of slavery in the way that many other people do. Thats OK. It is your own personal model of reality. You own that. Yawn!! Chris, That's ridiculous. Sure, I know the figurative meaning of slavery. Who doesn't? What I was objecting to was the way people -- and newagers in particular -- mix the literal with the figurative. Do you grok THAT? As for 'owning my personal model of reality', what's up, Chris? You getting ready to sell something at this year's Whole Life Expo or something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 19:35:55 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: words and concepts Message: >What I was objecting to was the way people -- and newagers in particular -- mix the literal with the figurative. Do you grok THAT? Your rigorous legal training might have damaged your sensitivity. It has limited your horizons to what you think you know. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 18:34:10 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim/Judith Subject: Jim v Judith Message: I'm probably jumping the gun here but I can't see two people who I already have some respect for, missing each others positions so badly, especially since from both of your posts today you've shown that this dispute is long standing. I think you've both got something to learn here. Judith I've learnt enough from your posts already to know that you have a lot of heart and care about the state of the world deeply. I also realize that that you were not involved with gm as long as a lot of people on this site. The slavery comment I suspect means a lot to you because you feel, as I do, that the world is basically doomed because of those states you class as slavery. Because you feel it is doomed you are hurting badly. That you see the situation of global destruction as reflective of those psychological states of attachment that we all carry with us and that our involvement with gm just reflects that lack of clarity and awareness. It is just another example reflecting the hopelessness of everything. I don't have any problem with that. What I think you are missing is that people who went through the whole ashram trip and the heavy mindfuck programming that went with it, experienced a loss of self and abuse that neither of us will EVER comprehend. It is primary for them. Gail's post to you earlier just amplified this for me. It looks like you are equating your sense of coming to terms with things on the same level as people who went through gm's HEAVY period. I can understand why someone who went through that HEAVY period might find your posts insulting because there is a level of difference in the suffering involved. Both of us have to acknowledge this and remember that this site is primarily about involvement with gm. When we touch on other topics we have to be VERY careful of the language we use because other people here will take longer to work things through. They have much more to come to terms with and righteous anger is one of the best ways of doing that. Re Jim I'm certain already that you are wrong about him changing. As I see him, there are two Jim's. He has already revealed to me that he has a BIG heart and is working his personal stuff through in private. The reason I suspect he is so aggressive about particulars is because one of the MAJOR ways gm got away with everything and still is, is by using new age language that is very ambiguos and difficult to define and pin down but which carries subtle messages of programming into peoples thoughts. He has been VERY clever about this. His use of language, I think has been evil, because very few people will be able or have the time to deconstruct what he says. Someone mentioned a grasshopper mind in a post elsewhere, Nigel I think, which enables him to never be pinned down. Didn't Ron Sherwood and don't other premies reflect exactly that kind of circular meaningless logic. There can be no compromise around this topic. It is a war on language because that is how gm trapped everyone and still does. That is why he wanted all the old materials destroyed, because the gap between his use of language then now is very different and exposes him. He wants to keep the same use of circularity in his logic now without exposing the background stuff he could get away with then. Jim a lot of the points about Judith's position I think I've covered above. I'm as certain about why you are speaking to Judith the way you are, as I can be. In the short time I've been here. I feel and I may be wrong, that our positions and analysis of slimeball are very similar. That might well be presumptuous of me. I also feel on some intuitive level that you are are really sensitive, that you have a big heart and that is exactly how gm got you as well, but that anything that is even remotely warm to the way you got sucked in by gm has to be resisted ferociously, exactly because of that. We both know how clever his use of language was and is. That is why logic, ferocious logic, is so important in neutralising and deconstructing his deception. That any slight gaps leave room for subtle programming to slip in. But at some point we all, with our very different experiences around gm, have got to find a way to co-exist, otherwise the Judiths and Bobbys here will move on and we will never reach their equivalents who are being VERY SUBTLY seduced now, compared to the bad old days. If we can't find ways to dialogue he has split us all and won again. If the site is purely a support network for the heavy period then maybe the whole of my argument is wasted. But I suspect that isn't what you want and I would hope that there is a way to show that real democracy can exist around this topic area. Jim, PLEASE try and be gentler in your approach and explain why you are trying to teach people stuff, at least to the people who are committed to the site. I know you are in that last posting and I know you have a lot of anger to deal with yourself and I'm not asking you to become all over-sensitive, nobody here would want that I'm sure, I've also made my appreciation of your approach pretty plain I think. The appreciation shown to you by a number of others, even in the short time I've been around has been explicit. The only reason I'm showing the arrogance to speak out like this is that I feel the two of you are like my split brain. That and the fact I'd like Bobby to feel more comfortable about staying around. The usual short post, god how I get sick of the sound of my own voice at times. Huge amounts of love, respect and hugs to you both. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 22:01:52 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Jim v Judith Message: Hamzen you put it so well. I agree with you. After I posted that one to Jim about not changing I felt regret. I thought it will make the Forum ex-premies seem split and make us look like we are not together - thus not helping newcomers. I am sorry about that. I felt attacked by Jim and that's why I decided to answer back. I didn't mind Gail because I know she is hurting. I will try to be more open minded and not so precious. thanks for the advice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:53:06 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Jim Subject: There you go again, Judith Message: I do hear what you say, Jim. Sometimes you are right, I admit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:53:07 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Jim Subject: There you go again - to Jim Message: Jim I am just going to make a statement to you about how I feel about your 'rebuttal/commentary' posts, and I don't intend to get into a long dispute about this. In my post where I said 'it's like realising your parents never really loved you at least not as much as you wanted them to you conveniently left out this last part of the statement. You said as an opening remark 'this is ridiculous'. Sorry, but that got my back up straight away. You don't really expect me to read the rest of your reply with any respect do you. It seems to me that you really don't understand some of the concepts being discussed here, for example 'becoming yourself'. This is obviously alien to a big ego like you. Well how about using that humble little phrase: IN MY OPINION a few more times, and the derogatory comments less. Then maybe you will get a bit more respect, or at least be capable of having a discussion about something rather than just doing verbal graffiti. Recently I realised that in a strange way I quite like you Jim, because you are so tenacious. I think you have a lot of good qualities, even if I admit it grudgingly. And yes you do notice descrepancies and pick up on them. But then what you do after that is to slam people - ex-premies who are here trying to grow away from the kind of abuse of our own rights we experienced from Maharaji. That's why I said in the past you want to be the master. You always have to be right, you always have to put your thoughts and statements on everyone's posts, and you can't leave people alone. Well leave me alone, unless you want to write a post stating your own opinion and leaving out the slamming of other people and the derogatory comments. It makes you look like a stupid and rather nasty little boy, and makes the whole Forum look bad, in my opinion. What premie would come here to voice their doubts about Maharaji with an admittedly overweight guy like yourself who refers to Maharaji as 'fat slug' etc. Its beyond a joke. He is a human being and does have some rights, believe it or not. So many years after you left knowledge, you have found a punching bag for the things you despise about yourself. And how you let your hate out all over everyone, not just Maharaji. Which shows it's non-specific. It just lives in you, and you feed it. Good luck with your life, you're obviously not in 'recovery' of any kind, and that's why you don't recognise the concept here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 22:15:51 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judith Subject: And your 'recovery' movement Message: Sorry, I should have read your post above before I told you to fuck off higher up. Then I could have said you should fuck your whole 'recovery' movement too and I wouldn't have had to waste another post. Do you have a sense of humour? Don't mean to pry, just asking. Do you? What do you think is funny? What turns your crank that way? Why am I asking this? You know, I don't really know. It just seems pertinent somehow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 13:31:50 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Judith Subject: darshanless darshan Message: I think there's something to be said for true humility and selflessness. They are beautiful qualities. In my opinion our society has lost much of these qualities. People deem themselves so important and so separate. Nobody can 'give' you these qualities. You have to want them and adopt them. I try to see the somewhat arduous experiences I'm going through like the cancer and social anomie as teachings to further me on my path through life. A big part of my life is self-development. I'm not always good at accomplishing the integration of selflessness and humility, or dealing with the cards I've been dealt. Sometimes the situations appear quite painful. I complain. But then the situations or my attitude shifts -- or I am able to let go. Then things get easier and sometimes very beautiful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 23:30:30 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Bobby Subject: ultimate selfless/humility Message: I don't really want to be contrarian with you Bobby, Being such a forum old timer and good sport that you are. I stared at your post for a while because I knew there was something but finally I saw why I stared. I think we all, especially here at this forum, spent some years actually engaged in fully qualified true humility and selflessness. Since none of the natural people I know try for excessive amounts of humility and selflessness, and they all are just ok to live and be subject to all the reactions they have to small things and expressing thier....... well, let me put it this way, the five year old was at the fair and I went off to get something and two of his older brothers tried to get him to go on a ride I am sure I would have said no to. He said 'no way, I'm not going on that ride' even though they really pressed him on it. I was glad to see that he didnt knuckle under to the pressure and wasnt humble and selfless and a pushover to domination by the next guy. I know kids born in the fifties were raised quite often to defer totally to 'authority' and to go along with the commands of the adults. Somehow I thought the sixties were about saying 'no' to the usual authority figures and seeing them for what they were instead. Even your plunge into buddha think was part of a rejection of whatever was handed you by your parents as the answer to the question 'whats happening here?' Here is the ultimate humility and selflessness story told by the former lord of the universe. See if you can top it, Once krishna and arjuna, were somewhere and arjuna was saying he was a great devotee, right krishna? Krishna says, oh yeah? watch this, so he turns arjuna into a lion and goes to a king disguised as no one special. He greets the king and queen and they offer him food and say what would your lion like? and so he says,'he will eat your son.' So the king and queen are bummed but are going to do it and then ta da! krishna says 'dont bother' and turns him and arjuna into thier more obvious selves. Arjuna says 'jeeze, I dont have devotion like that' What is going on? extreme selflessness and humility. The king and queen see thier god everywhere so they are stuck obeying everyone as thier lord. I was the guy who listened when rawat gave those stories about chooseing one thing and if your smart choose rawats feet alone. I was the guy who DID try to aproach life with that krishna story in mind. The way you have fought with Jim last year and this year tells me that clearly that I had you beat in the effort in life to make that selfless/humility thing part of me. So, from one who has been farther down that glorious road of selfless/humility, I can say with experience that it is not to be pursued. Sure, try not to be an asshole to others, but to make yourself a fool by not dealing with people as they really are is not helping THEM I can say for certain, and it made me a sucker and someone living a fantasy relationship with life. Not to be viewed as a goal at all Bobby old buddy. Stay as cantankerous as you are and become more so. Honest to god Bobby (oh thats right, there is no god in your view) anyway honestly Bobby, people LIKE me when I am all selfless and humble, but really and truly, they do not respect me. And, they judge me for it. thems the facts. moderation. Besides, how do you speak the truth when you are selfless and humble excessively? You dont. People that arrive here in that condition all sound (like I did) insane. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 06:58:22 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: ultimate selfless/humility Message: I'm not necessarily talking about 'ultimate' anything here Bill. I don't equate the means to learning humility and selfishness with 'pushover domination' at all. I don't see these in terms of 'knuckling under'. That seems to be the sense of your post. You talk in terms of extremes, but there are whole ranges of expression. I've had my share of extreme experiences. I wouldn't wish them on anyone. But yes, I have gotten teachings and value out of them. Humility and selflessness to me also means opening up to others, entering in to deeper states of interaction. This could be in smaller groups, such as friends and family, but also in larger community. Selflessness includes doing for others, being there for others. My kids have taught me that. Probably your kids have taught you the same. I don't agree that one can't strive for these qualities. They don't necessarily come through the hard, 'ego popping' situations. They can come gently, serendipitously, just in the normal course of life, or they can be deliberately sought out. One can also cultivate these qualities, just like tending a garden. One can tend ones' awareness. And one can use the situations that one is given for optimum development and personal evolution. I'm sure not perfect at it. You may be further advanced at humility and selfishness as you seem to state. But I still see value in the path. It's my path, the sense I make out of my life. You may not agree with the sense I make, but I don't think you know too much really about what has gone into making me who I am. I can of course say the same about my perceptions of others here. As far as 'dealing with people as they are', I'm sure I have a lot to learn. And actually I have learned some things in my interactions on this forum. I've made some mistakes sure, but some of my 'mistakes' probably don't agree with your definitions. There are some stances I've taken here that I don't regret. I just don't equate selflessness and humility with 'domination' or 'knuckling under' as you seem to do. >>>>>(oh thats right, there is no god in your view) That's not a true representation of my view. My view does not a god in the sense that you may have. Certainly not limited to any kind of person, like a guy on a throne, or Christ as the sole saviour. I've not wanted to argue my experiences or beliefs cause I believe that critical attack in certain situations throws meaningful dialogue totally out of whack. Critical mind can only see in terms of its own parameters. Much is lost. I've presented my beliefs and ideas here from time to time, but have not felt inclined to overly defend them or get into them too much. Often there is not that much interest around here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 16:00:58 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Humility?? You're POMPOUS!! Message: I've not wanted to argue my experiences or beliefs cause I believe that critical attack in certain situations throws meaningful dialogue totally out of whack. Critical mind can only see in terms of its own parameters. Much is lost. I can't imagine what kind of 'meaningful dialogue' remains after you've excised criticism. I've certainly never seen it in anything you've ever said to anyone, here or the sissy forum. Oh, you mean you get to tell a few people about some of the things you've done, books you've read, 'teachers' you've hung out with or even ideas you've had? THAT''s what you call 'meaningful dialogue'? Bobby, say what you will about me, but if only you could see yourself. Humble -- ha!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:05:30 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: You are totally clueless Message: Fuck off asshole. I have absolutely no respect for you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 19:41:06 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Bobby Subject: to Bobby Message: Dear Bobby, I have definitely noticed a large increase in your humility within the last six months. I really respect you for this. I don't know whether it's because of the cancer, or other events in your life, but it's not easy to be humiliated. Unlike Bill, I define humilty as feeling like everyone else in the world is just as important as you are. This is a hard state to achieve, and most of us never do. I appreciate your efforts in this direction. Take care, Bobby. Love from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:56:14 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: My twopennyworth Message: I don't think it's neccesary to be humble. Life itself can have a humbling effect on us all. No need to try to make oneself any more humble or any less proud. I don't think it matters one jot how humble we are or are not. Much humility can be contrived anyway and is deceptive. So I would say - never try to be humble, just be as you are. I think the one quality that is important is caring. Caring where it matters. My stepfather is 85 years old and spends his whole life caring for my very infirm stepmother. He finds it difficult to walk to the shops some days. But his next door neighbour is caring enough to go to the supermarket once a week for them to buy groceries. Caring and love. I can't see anything more important or valuable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 21:14:36 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Bobby Message: On reflection it is kind of strange to objectify humility. Humility is more about the absence of self, not presence. I think of humility as experiences of being there for others, being open to others or just being present. It's a subjective experience and quite beautiful. I admit to having had low self-esteem. But I am of two minds on this. In one sense I really don't want to put more into sense of self so I don't want more 'esteem'. However I've beaten myself up a lot in this life. It's really enough wasted energy with that. I like to feel good about who I am and what I am doing. I still am a sucker for what others think of me. It's a pretty deep thing with me and I've spent many years working with attenuation of my sense of self that obsesses about what others feel and think. Thank you for your appreciation, love and support. They mean a lot to me. Love, Bobby Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 00:11:55 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Bobby and Katie Message: Hi Katie, You said you defined humility as seeing others as important as you are. That is of course much healthier and moderation oriented than the religious zealot devotee -guru is all- training that twisted my view. The humility raja ji is touring talking about is also probably not the sane one you mention. Bobby defined Humility and selflessness in the post below us in his view and it is also like yours. A sane definition of those terms is not gotten at the lotus feet thats for sure. You know Bobby, Some weeks ago you weren't in the mood for discussing one fine detail of the thoughts about god you perhaps have, but I thought it was a respectable inquiry I was makeing, maybe my stuff is erratic and so it can look budensome or boring but niether you or my buddist freind wanted to think it thru any farthur and I .... well, I'll assume it was my fault for the way I brought it up. I wonder how I can state it in a more detached tone. An friendly inquiry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 05:02:44 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: bill Subject: to Bobby and Katie Message: I'm not always in the mood for analysis Bill. I have a full plate. And I must say that I'm put off by your obvious predjudices against Buddhism. Maybe you are sincerely interested sometimes, but it's hard to get into serious inquiry when you come out with statements like 'Buddha the fraud'. Maybe for you that's the view but it sure ain't for me. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from much of the time. That's fine. I respect you. I do. Sometimes I really like you based on what you have to say (which is all I have). But please if you want sincere exchange don't make assumptions that I'm really deluded. I know I am, but so are you. --smile-- That's just how I see things and I've made sincere attempts to come to terms with my experiences over many years. I'm not here to convert anyone, just offer my views and tell it like it is from where I'm at. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 11:35:14 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: bill Subject: to Bobby and Katie Message: Hi Bill - Glad you liked the definition of humility. It just came off the top of my head and probably needs more refining. I did want to ask you where you are getting your ideas about Buddhism. I have read a lot of books about American Buddhism (some of which don't mention the name Buddha once), and I think that your ideas are somewhat off base. I can send you (or recommend you) a few books to read if you want, and you can see what you think. Honestly, it's nothing like you describe. In fact, some of the things that you have written in your posts sound very much like Buddhist thought. Regards from Katie P.S. Thanks to Bobby for saying the nice things about me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:58:23 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Bobby - attacks on you Message: Dear Bobby I just want to say I recently got a heck of a lot out of one of your posts where you shared about Tibetan buddhism. As I said I had been to a talk by a lama after my father died. Part of what's happening to me is I feel like I'm waking up after a long dream. Thank you for stimulating memories that there are things I have done in life apart from Maharaji, depression, therapy and drugs. I rang up about a buddhist yoga class and spoke to the most delightful chinese man. He told me the yoga would 'give my brain a rest' which sounded fine to me. I intend to go. I am doing a lot more things lately than I've done for ages. I will e-mail you, too. Yes we are all different. I happen to relate to you because I too have been through a lot of painful stuff (probably not as difficult as what you have been). I notice you are married ,though so you must have yourself together I figure. It shows people can recover from difficult pasts. One thing I found that helps when you are being attacked here is not to read the attacker's posts unless they become less hostile and insulting, and more objective. Regards. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 21:37:36 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Judith Subject: Difficulties Message: You sound good Judith. I'm glad things are going well for you! >>>I notice you are married ,though so you must have yourself together I figure. I'm not married so that busts that bubble :P ------------------------------------------------ Yes I understand about relating with people who have been through difficulties. In a way I'm really attracted to difficult experiences. I can't help it. In some deep place in me I have difficulty linked with self-development. Grace through suffering. I use the ideas of suffering as a kind of contemplation. To me there is no easy answer. I have mixed ideas and feelings about these feelings. I empathize very strongly with all sorts of difficult situations like mental hospitals, prisons, the jewish holocaust and deep-south racism. Sometimes this empathy becomes very emotional for me. The emotions I find beautiful and very strong. There are tears and deep experiences of love. There are Buddhist practices that work with the suffering of others. I practice this stuff some. ------------------------------------------------ I've been practicing some with staying away from some posts on this forum. I've been restraining myself some. And a lot of the time I just don't care what is said. However, I'm one who believes strongly in self-expression and I like to express myself. I don't share some of the emotions of some others here, like hatred for Maharaji. With some of these sorts of expressions it's easier to let people have their expressions and not intrude. But I have a hard time with personal attack. I don't like to be attacked and I don't like to see others attacked. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 18:43:20 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: bill Subject: ultimate selfless/humility Message: Dear bill On the second reading of your post, I like what you said, especially as you say, you are speaking from experience. I was just noticing this very minute that some people (eg in a reply by Sir David to Jim, above) can just re-state their view when someone else disagrees with them. That shows self-esteem. My game seems to be: who is right - them or me? 9 times out of 10 it is them: or else I 'concede' but seeth. I have some major work to do on myself and it is good to hear that other people have struggled with similar problems: finding that the personality you have become does not work for you at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:36:24 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Bobby Subject: Just a thought Message: Self developement. But what if you come to a stage where your SELF seems irrelevant? Then you don't worry so much about self developement. Such a thing can happen when you're caring for someone, bereaved or in a tight situation. In such situations I am just surviving and just want to be able to help someone else. Any notion of self developement is ridiculous then. It is the other person who is important. Or it is the tight situation which takes all my attention. I think that self developement is a luxury I cannot afford. If I survive and live another day, that's all that matters. I'll let God sort out any self developement. I don't need it. I just want to be able to carry on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 20:57:57 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Just a thought Message: I agree David. I admit that I've been indulgent at times with self-development. However, I see it as a coevolutionary thing. My development has allowed me to be more spacious over the long term. I am better able to be there for others. I've been pretty selfish at points in my life. I admire selflessness and attempt to strive for it. I don't really like the term 'self-development'. I guess I prefer 'selfless development'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 21:43:53 (EDT)
From: Judith Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Just a thought Message: I like what you say and glad this issue is being addressed. It is pretty critical to me at the moment. I have posted a lot of angry stuff today. I hope I don't get a deluge of 'hate' posts. I just need to get some stuff out about how I feel. I know how everyone else feels, I can read about it every day here. I guess it's valuable to be able to express stuff, no matter what, here. i knoqw that sounds contradictory but it has to be okay for me to say I don't like, for example all the derogatory comments. That certainly doesn't stop people from doing it. At the moment I am trying to move on in my life. I don't even have a job, and I am living in a one-bedroom 'shack' belonging to some premies. I have made it as nice as possible, it's not a dump, but for someone my age its pretty 'humble' (I thought that was a good thing for a premie.) One day I feel positive eg about studying next year to improve my life. Then I freeze at the application forms. Boy is my self esteem up and down. It goes from non-existent, so that I grovel even to be here on the Forum, to attacking other people on the Forum as though I am the 'queen of the world'. This is my personality at the moment. I guess just getting on with it sounds like very good advice to me in that light. I am going to do some voluntary work now. Muck in with everybody else and stop worrying about myself today. Sounds like your kids are definitely going to go to a better school, and I hope you succeed in your endeavour there. Thanks for sharing your positivity here (okay, and your negativity too!). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Sep 29, 1998 at 23:19:33 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Judith Subject: Just a thought Message: Hi judith, Have you been to the bookstore to the computer section and looked at any of the --learn ______ in 24 four hours-- books? You could learn access 97 and get a job that pays good. Not hard, you get get the all picture tutorial for that or office 97. Self taught works in the workplace. You are smart, a skill is all you need? Was anonomousie too fresh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 16:39:59 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Judith Subject: Toad Message: Judith I love the story about Toad. If that doesn't say it all- except for one thing. Mr Steal Your Soul Toad then goes straight out and tries to suck in another Frog and so it goes on. Slaves to money especially. That is everywhere and everything as far as I can see and will never change. The one thing we all seem to have in common right across the globe. I've known a couple of people with real money. The more they get the more paranoid of losing it they become. One of them came into the money (inheritance). Before then, although he was on the border line his attitude was pretty relaxed, soon as he got the dosh.... Creepy. Yet we all have to survive. It seems we have no mechanisms that are workable, that could help us achieve balance, that would enable us tread on this earth just a little more lightly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:09:11 (EDT)
From: Sir D Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: hamzen Subject: Oh give me mo-oney Message: That's what I want... I now see money not as a neccesary evil but as a useful and constructive tool. I discovered tonight that if I want to send my three children to a private school it will cost me about £14,000 per year in school fees. (14,000 pounds, just in case the pounds sign doesn't come out right) They're getting a crap education at their state school so I figured I've really got to get the money to pay for them to go to the private school. I have been wealthy and poor over the last ten years and I know life's a lot easier if you have money. Without it we're subject to all the crap that gets thrown at us for NOT having money, i.e. bad housing, no independence, an inability to do what one wants and all the general hassle of never having enough money to pay the bills etc. And it is also nice to be able to afford to be generous. Not so nice when you have to cut back expendeture on the ones you care about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 21:26:18 (EDT)
From: hamzen Email: None To: Sir D Subject: Oh give me mo-oney Message: It's not basic survival money but gratuitous consumption. By the time every single person on this planet becomes a two car, three TV jet flying twice a year two refrigerator double freezer throwaway bi-yearly computer updated big mac eating coke guzzling consumer there will be no planet left. By which time it will be very difficult to survive. It's that level of wasted money and built in lack of values about money, I'm talking about, Sir D. It is also odd the way people with LARGE amounts of money behave once they have it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 23:59:43 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: hamzen Subject: schmucks with bucks Message: It is also odd how regular guys turn into suck ups around someone with money. I saw it in the premie world althought I fergit the rich premies name, and i have seen it at my house because two relatives are old millionaires. And at work of course, I hobnobed with a couple millionaires and a billionaire this summer in Princeton-although I am sure one guy is half as rich as merril lynch stock went from 98 to 50 and is heading farther down in my opinion and the billionaire had some money in hedge funds as most really rich types do and the hedge funds have taken a real bath because of the the russian devaluation. But the millionaire was sucking up (what is a better adjetive?) to the billionaire, I witnessed that. I hate that rawat deals in the breath because I think it is a great leveler in any moment and feeling it can keep you from some of those traps. rawat is like some breath vampire or something. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 15:26:19 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Yup, I think it was December 9th, 1977, Brighton Conference Centre. Every one was half-expecting the Big Mac to fly in, but he didn't so they set up the picture, the throne and the lotus pillow. I was a seriously freaked out aspirant at the time, and because it wasn't real darshan I was allowed to go through and indulge myself in this very unhygenic ritual of devotional insanity. And I had an experience, or more precisely, my mind provided me with an experience. It was like bad acid and left me feeling all head-swimming and spacey but sick in my guts. Later, GMJ said 'hello' or something over a phone link, and they played Leo Sayer's 'When I need you' over the loudspeakers and everybody burst into tears - as one does... I remember another pseudo-darshan in London sometime in 1979. I think the practice was quite common. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:00:44 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: jethro Subject: darshanless darshan Message: Hey Jethro, I remember this occasion. Thanks for reminding me. Wasn't it held in a big marquee on a campsite somewhere in Wales? I have vague memories of the obligatory muesli and yoghurt lunches (yech) in some building there, and the subsequent endless and tiresome satsang in the tent. I also remember the blessed pillow and darshan line. As Nigel pointed out, I think this sort of thing was not altgether unique to that occasion. We certainly all used to 'pranam' to one of those pillows; one that had once supported the Lotus tootsies,and which was later reverentially placed at the front of the Satsang room of our community. As a matter of interest, I just returned to the distant town where I was billeted as a young new Ashram Premie (sent as I remember, by command of our dear friend David Smith). You see, last week I was holidaying with my family about 50 miles away from this place and decided on a whim, to take a trip to see the location of my earlier demise. In doing so I unwittingly subjected myself to some degree of trauma. The mere sight of the house where had once been the Ashram had an unforseen sickening effect upon me. An overwhelming misery descended upon me for the whole day afterwards. Clearly I had quite sucessfully managed to forget that part of my past, and to be thus suddenly reminded again, plunged me into a dark depression. I also felt a spontaneous eruption of anger from deep within (inside) that, at such a youthful and enthusiastic time of my life, I had effectively given up everything to work raising money to help Maharaji and simultaneously deprived myself of a really useful and happy time. My sojourn in Maharaji's provincial prison beat me into a submission of utter boredom and wasted potential. Another funny thing. Later that day I saw one of Maharaji's ex-instructors, Kathy Hopkins, on Sky News, pretending to be a journalist making various comments about tomorrows newspaper articles. I never knew she was an aspiring TV presenter. Maybe if she hadn't spent so long worshipping the Guru she would have been in Kay Burley's shoes! (ie. News-Reader). Anyway who knows how things would have been if there had been no Maharaji? Thank God that Ashram thing folded..To think what might have happened if it had carried on.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 20:41:42 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Anon Subject: bloody hell.. Message: Another funny thing. Later that day I saw one of Maharaji's ex-instructors, Kathy Hopkins, on Sky News, pretending to be a journalist making various comments about tomorrows newspaper articles. I never knew she was an aspiring TV presenter. Maybe if she hadn't spent so long worshipping the Guru she would have been in Kay Burley's shoes! Fascinating post, Anon. Thanks (and good to see you, BTW) So there is life after the cult. Any ex-initiator with access to the media ought, as a matter of public duty, speak out vociferously, at any opportunity, against their fomer crapmeister, IMHO. BTW: The big marquee in the campsite somewhere in mid-wales sounds like the Pontrefendigaid gig of spring '78. There was a right-next-door mountain known as 'Spacer's Hill' where anyone with a couple of brain cells left to rub together would go to commune with nature or otherwise pass the time till it was all over. But, then again, these youthful stupidities have all started fuse together in my memory... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Sep 27, 1998 at 06:45:12 (EDT)
From: Anon Email: None To: nigel Subject: bloody hell.. Message: BTW: The big marquee in the campsite somewhere in mid-wales sounds like the Pontrefendigaid gig of spring '78. There was a right-next-door mountain known as 'Spacer's Hill' where anyone with a couple of brain cells left to rub together would go to commune with nature or otherwise pass the time till it was all over.But, then again, these youthful stupidities have all started fuse together in my memory... Well done. I remember it now. I must say I suffer from the same 'fusing' of my memories of all these 'youthful stupidities'. Sometimes the retrospective posts to this site jog my memory, which (like on this occasion) will help me eventually to document my own private memoirs. I'm not in a rush though. I'm too busy trying to resurrect some kind of a life from my misspent youth! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 15:38:52 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: jethro Subject: Another program Message: Jethro: I didn't know about that one, but you jogged my memory about another one that was almost as rediculous. I think it was in '75. The Phoenix premies were called to Holi in Los Angeles. M was supposed to be there. We all took impromptu days off to attend in hopes that our ...ahem... dear lord was going to give us darshan (and a colored sprinkle). Well, we arrive and guess what? M is in Miami (much nicer weather) and we listen to hours and hours of boring satsang and then get to go out and hit each other with water balloons. This was a real disappointment for me (the first of many). I had taken an impromptu vacation (my employer was none to happy about it) and wasted alot of money just to hit some people with water balloons. Similar to the non-darshan darshan, we were asked to believe that he was with us 'in spirit.' I saw alot of disappointed faces out there. I wonder if any of them are HERE..... he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |