Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 25 | |
From: Sep 26, 1998 |
To: Oct 13, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:12:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: heller@bc1.com To: Everyone Subject: science argument cont'd - Run Message: Run, When you talk about all the ways scientists might not collect or interpret their data astutely you're not criticising science, just people. The beuaty of science is that you can retrace someone else's steps, scrutinize the method and result, etc. Science's ingenious strength is that it rises above individual personalities, if not sooner, later. No other process does that that I'm aware of. Certainly not religion. I can't think of any other system of approaching the mysteries of life that comes even slightly close to this one. Can you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 01:50:12 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ex-premieMutantSideshowDebate Message: A few announcements before satsang begins. Damnit Heller, somebody was gonna get me to do service around this place eventually and it had to be YOU! After cutting and pasting my carefully written posts for 30 okay 40 ok whose counting minutes I will continue this debatable debacle at the damn top of the list but lemme wash my face first. Ex-premies, Jim WILL behave if you try your very hardest to think and speak, well... write accurately and address the ACTUAL ISSUES at hand even if he vehemently disagrees. He may put on his extremely terrifying IAMJIMHELLER mask but you'll be ok- his limitless powers of logic and reason are actually rented from a supermarket and if he does't hurry up and use them he may have to pay more rent without having finished the job AT HAND. AND DON'T BE SCARED because he likes me and I really still meditate. After considering the crossroads of being challenged to a debate at the top of the forum, I have decided to release a greatest hits record: Runamok's Science Versus God- Coming to a Supreme Court near you! 'What you say about science is true in theory but espousing a theory is not a guarantee of its efficacy. The purity of science is an abstract quantity unrelated to the nuts and bolts of real-world scientists. Why do people go into medicine today? Don't you think it has more to do with the $180k paycheck (in the states) than their pure desire to serve truth? When people can claim the truth is their domain watch your wallet!' 'Our mistake as premies was to take someone's word for the purity of their work. You're still looking to worship something that isn't really there- sounds like. The only place I can take this from here is to discuss specific instances where interesting research is denied mainstream acceptance or exposure because of the 'scientific community'. Be realistic- in practice 'science' IS the scientific community. Otherwise you're talking about an abstract that has no corporeality. What you're saying really reminds me of religion- that the worship of God brings certain guarantees to the faithful- that a real spirit exists therefore following it has a real benefit to those who perservere.' 'I can't say I understand your questions. When the earth was believed to be at the center of the universe, it was science. Science was, however, woefully incorrect. The people who were responsible for this idea were also responsible for numerous calculations and other scientific responsibilities. It's not my fault they were scientists and they were wrong. If you try to say that it's only science when it's right you're gonna have an infinite catch-22 in your favor and there will be no discussion.' Stay tuned for more of these amazing forgotten garage band recordings in which Runamok dares to defy the authority of Jim Heller with little or no regard for his own safety or well-being! No longer must meditating ex-premies and even premies live in fear of the terrifying wrath of the dreaded Jim Heller! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 11:04:53 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Let's try this way Message: Okay, Run, how about a little judo: you tell ME, what, if anything, is unique about science as a way of learning about the world? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 12:18:15 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: OOkkk Message: That it attempts a stand-alone objective existence. That it tries to do what you say it does do. How was acupuncture developed thousands of years ago seemingly without the benefit of this method and still able to stand up to scientific scrutiny today and be deemed acceptable? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:04:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: You're kidding? Message: Run, Acupuncture is fully discredited by science. There's a very good article in Skeptic a few issues back (Volume 5, Number 4) which explains how and why. At the same time, acupunture is acknowledged as having some analgesic effect completely irrespective of the Chinese theory. A bit of an interesting coincidence. Really, you should read the article. It seems pretty thorough and rigorous (i.e. I had a hard time following parts of it). So I don't think acupuncture's going to help you much here. But please, read the article. I'd be interested in your comments. It's called 'Acupuncture's Secrets Revealed'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:31:14 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're kidding? Message: Acupuncture has proven to work in many cases, and many modern health care institutions are incorporating some form of it into their clinical practice. There are many articles to support this (careful you don't let one article paint your picture for you Jim... that'd be unscientific!). I will say that its early adhearents probably used a similar rigour to modern science in setting up test scenarios, observing, and documenting. J Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:16:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: Yeah? Prove it. Message: I will say that its early adhearents probably used a similar rigour to modern science in setting up test scenarios, observing, and documenting. You're talking through your hat, here, jrt. Why don't you just chill a bit and get the article. Beleive me, you'll find it interesting at minimum. If you like, email me your fax number and I'll copy it and send it to you. Then maybe we can discuss this. Right now you're just shooting from the hip. The fact is, acupuncture has been carefully and extenisvely studied and -- guess what? -- it works to a very limited degree but, as I said, not at all in the way or to the degree that the ancient, pre-scientific Chinese conjured. All that meridian stuff has been disproven. End of story. Now all that's left is for you to actually READ the story. Here's my email: heller@bc1.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 01:35:07 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: THIS is not premie-line. I'm tempted to restart the thread as I do not want to be associated with BM Upchuck Souffle. Acupuncture is legit enough to be a licensed phenomena in most or all states of the US. In order for this to have happenned it passed muster through standard scientific circles. The editors of Skeptic are not the most reknowned scientific authorities last I checked. The phenomena of acupuncture points appearing in electrophotographs (Kirilian) is a fascinating phenomena with no conceivable explanation other than evidential corroboration. As for the gentleman(s) who have joined our death-defying dialogue, please be advised that the rules of the forum you are on include a rule against multiple handles. Kindly respect our forum enough to pick one of Jack, JT, Jr or whatever you like and stick with it. We may not be premies but we are people and are worth some respect and attention to our procedures. Jim, I posted all that funny stuff hoping people would join in- but I always seem to find your stuff more relevant even when I disagree with it. Still, I find Skeptic and similar writings relatively boring in that where I agree it seems too obvious. Where I disagree it seems extremely closeminded. You somtimes seem to indulge slamming instead of debating where you're stated aims are to debate. In the context a cultist exercise in the imitation of communication through BM's party line and his zombified robot echo units malfunctioning into eternity, slamming and flaming are perfectly relevant. I am tempted to apologize for inviting premiedom to speak. It just seems like our more informative and rational intellectualism sometimes is wasted on an overly smalll group of friends. In leaving BM I saw myself as overcoming a missionary mentality. This extends to other aspects of my life at times. Whenever the superiority and/or ultimate importance of my own point of view supercedes the importance of the relationships that I express these things in, I figure it's a mistake and I need to back off. As you say, there is something like evolution at work in ideas, and so bragging about my new legs to the other fish is really kinda losing my perspective. Anyway, if you really wanna talk about this stuff email might work better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 02:27:01 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Run and Jim Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: . Whenever the superiority and/or ultimate importance of my own point of view supercedes the importance of the relationships that I express these things in, I figure it's a mistake and I need to back off. Run, I like this. Jim, take note. This is how I feel about our relationship. (Congrats on the carreer move, BTW, they are lucky to get you.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 02:29:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: Acupuncture is legit enough to be a licensed phenomena in most or all states of the US. In order for this to have happenned it passed muster through standard scientific circles. The editors of Skeptic are not the most reknowned scientific authorities last I checked. The phenomena of acupuncture points appearing in electrophotographs (Kirilian) is a fascinating phenomena with no conceivable explanation other than evidential corroboration. Nothing personal, Run, but I really like to keep discussions that start here on the forum. You never know who's going to join in with something relevant, interesting or, for laughs, premish. Anyway... The article in Skeptic isn't a study done by the magazine or anything. But even if it were, why do you criticize that crew as you do? Look, this is really simple. Same offer to you as to Jack: give me a fax number, I'll copy the article and you can read it yourself. Why not? I think the studies speak for themselves. Acupuncture's going the way of chiropractic! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 09:18:42 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: Chiropractic is a long way from gone, Jim. Seems like you're mistaking a portion of a leaf for the forest. Nader's various spinoffs can provide you with all kinds of information about mainstream medical murder but even tho I am familar with I don't expect it to be ending too soon. C'mon yourself. If you had cited 'Scientific American' or 'Nature', maybe you would have had something. Under the circumstances your 'dredging' up sources that do not hold much weight, like quoting a tabloid for a news story. It may be true but the source tends to circumstantially indicate otherwise. Understand what I am saying as far as the continuation of the thread. It doesn't serve intelligent discourse to try to humor cultlist propaganda simoltaneous to our discussion. The criticism of Skeptic is totally valid, they arent leaders in the field we discuss. In fact, if it was a study it would interst me more AND the magazine represents a point of view and in that sense isnt oriented to objectivity as a scientific journal. BECAUSE IT ISNT SCIENTIFIC!! It's nothing personal against them and the reason I don't care to read the article is the same reason that I dont read MMT or the premie forum. There are only so many hours in a day! If I had a fax sitting here I would say ok but I dont. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 13:24:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: This is getting weird Message: Run, What is this? I'm telling you there's an article in Skeptic by a doctor and medical researcher, I think it was (I'm not a home, so can't check)who's reporting on several published studies. Now either you're open to read the shit or you're not. You haven't given me any good reason to discount or even dismiss the magazine's articles other than stating your own bias against it. Have you read Skeptic at all? Which issue? Really, enough of this prejudice, please. Look, if a fax machine is completely out of the question, I'm not going to ask you to actually find the article. Instead I'll paraphrase it, if I can, when I get a chance. In the meantime, here's the magazine's home page with a number of articles from past issues. I haven't read one that I found shoddy, superficial or stupid. But here it is. I'd be happy to hear your comments onh any of these articles -- AFTER you've read them of course: http://www.rtd.com/~lippard/skeptic/ss-skeptic.html Here are the endorsements Skeptic advtertises at the top of its home page: '...a first rate job of promoting science and rationality.' --John Rennie, Editor-in-Chief, Scientific American '...the best journal in the field.' --Stephen Jay Gould, Harvard University '...stimulating and provocative.' --Carl Sagan, Cornell University 'One of the year's top 10 best new publications.' --Library Journal 'Skeptic kicks ass.' --Penn Jillette of 'Penn & Teller' Your comparison of the magazine with mmt or the premie forum is, to put it bluntly, ludicrous. As for chiropratic, didn't you notice the piece on it in the news the other day? It was all over. Extensive studies -- good, old-fashioned scientific studies -- have blown it out of the water as completely ineffectual. But then wyhat else would one expect with a practise based on one man's intuition (fair enough) but NEVER any scientific validation? As for 'medical murder', whatever you mean by that, I srongly suspect you're drifitng into arguing against people and not science again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 14:35:03 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is getting weird Message: Jim, I am interested in what the Scientific studies had to say about chiropractic techniques (specifics, not just that chiropractic was blown out of the water). I missed that story in the news. Can you or someone paraphrase the scientific findings? If not, is there some place I could look this up for myself? Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 17:38:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: This is getting weird Message: Veep, It was a major (i.e. widespread) news item two days ago. If you go to the NY Times or some other big paper's page you should be able to find it as they usually archive pieces for about a week (beyond that you gotta pay). Otherwise, what it said, essentially, is that... let me see if I can remember, something to the effect that Jim Heller's right again. No, seriously, the results have been published on the largest studies ever done on chiropractic and they show that, first, the more bizarre claims for the practize (e.g. curing ashtma) are bullshit and, second, it offers no more assistance to spinal problems than good, old physio. Indeed, it's often worse and sometimes can be quite harmful. The article also had the response from the chiro's. They claimed to 'welcome' the study as proof that people are now taking chiro seriously enough to study it properly (??) but question the results on the basis that the testing was too limited in scope. Yeah, right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:01:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: VP Subject: Here's the wire item Message: Here's the Washington Posts' version of the piece. I thought the one I'd read was longer but maybe not. (No, it was longer because, as I say, it included responses from the chiropratic guys): 'Study Says Chiropractors Can't Help Childhood Asthma Visiting a chiropractor may be little better than reading a $1 pamphlet about back pain and is worthless against childhood asthma, two studies conclude. Asthma is one of many ills outside the traditional realm of aches and pains that some chiropractors attempt to treat. Allergies, high blood pressure, headaches, ear infections, colic and menstrual pain also are on the list. However, by far the most common complaint seen by chiropractors is back pain. Several studies have found that their treatment can speed recovery from a sore back, but a report in today's New England Journal of Medicine concludes their effect is surprisingly modest. The back-pain study was conducted on 321 people by Daniel C. Cherkin and others from the University of Washington. It compared chiropractic manipulation with a form of physical therapy called the McKenzie method for low back pain. This type of physical therapy emphasizes teaching people posture and exercises to minimize their pain. The study found that these people did only marginally better than those who received a $1 booklet about backaches. The asthma study, also published in today's journal, was conducted on 80 children with mild to moderate symptoms. Chiropractors believe that some diseases, including asthma, result from lack of proper nerve function and can be corrected by manipulating the spine. The children were seen by 11 chiropractors, who gave them either standard chiropractic treatments or sham manipulations that were intended to feel like the real thing. All the children got four months of treatment. While both groups got slightly better, there was no difference between them. Jeffrey Balon of Toronto, who directed the study, said he had hoped that chiropractic care would make a difference.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 18:16:57 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: And here are the articles Message: Here's the url for the New England Journal of Medicine's latest studies referred to in the news item: http://www.nejm.org/content/scripts/search/keyword.asp?title=chiropractic&author= Any of you chiropractic fans out there might need a little exit counselling. I'm not sure what's available over the long weekend.... hey, it's only the Canadian thanksgiving, isn't it? Good, you've got nothing to worry about then. Read the second article in particular with a full box of kleenex and remember, we're all here for each other. :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:31:05 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: And here are the articles Message: Thanks, Jim for taking the time to find that information. I have never been a fan of chiropractic for solving things I thought were beyond it's sphere: cancer, asthma, etc. I have never understood how manipulating the spine could cure diseases of the soft tissue. I did think that it made sense for back pain--more sense than surgery, anyway. I don't have any back problems, so my exposure to chiropractic 'medicine'(I know you are going to tell me that's a oxymoron, right?)has been limited to a few adjustments for sport related injuries. Members of my family are true believers in chiropractic--for back pain only. I will get them to read these articles. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 20:03:20 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is moving fast Message: Ok I will check out Skeptic- the stuff I saw was on the internet. I DID see the news the other nite and you know what? I have a strict policy to never commit on a first study. You are so anxious to have a definite belief- can you live without knowing some things? If you can't you're sure to end up pretending you know what you can't understand. All right, there's a zillion postings in this thread and I haven't read them yet. I'm sure I'm gonna get lumped in with a bunch of BS mush that I don't want to even read, much less agree with. Gee I'm sure the additional postings will really generate an intelligent dialogue on these issues that will be intellectually stimulating- NOT. It doesn't take much to burn a thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 20:08:09 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fast PS Message: Chriro's claims about asthma or viral are obviously overstated or worse. Big shit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 15:17:32 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: anyone Subject: CSICOP monopoly on truth Message: from Team Dubious by Ellen Barry Even Carl Sagan, chairman and CEO of organized skepticism, expressed doubts about the movement's outreach tactics; in his 1996 book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (Random House), Sagan criticizes CSICOP for 'the sense that we have a monopoly on truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 17:44:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: wrong target, Bobby Message: Sorry dude, we're not talking CSICOP. Different magazine, different people. But anyway, your complaint is a pretty weak one. SDagan was questioning the TACTICS, not findings of the skeptic crowd. The fact is, a lot of skeptics disagree on how hard to hit ignorance. That's just a strategic dispute, nothing more. By the way, did you actually READ his book? I'm surprised. What did you think of it? Let's talk. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 15:21:59 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Runamok Subject: How to debunk anything Message: How to debunk just about anything by Daniel Drasin In the course of my research activities I have made it my business to collect particularly egregious examples of the art of *debunkery* -- the substitution of scient*istic* propaganda for scient*ific* method. A few years ago I began to analyze what makes debunkery tick, and wrote several papers on the subject that catalogued literally dozens of manipulative tricks and techniques with which generations of debunkers have successfully achieved the arrest or suppression of a broad range of discovery and innovation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 17:50:25 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Challenge Message: First, Bobby, to be clear, that was a quote from the page you've cited. Anyway, I read the page and it's just what one would expect from someone very protective of an indefenisble belief. But let's cut to the chase, shall we? What we're talking about here is acupuncture (and now, I guess, chiropractic). I challenge you to read the article I've mentioned and advise me just where the author's used any of the weak, diversionary cheap shots Mr. Drasin and you are concerned about. Or are you going to play ostrich on this one? Same thing: if you like send me a fax number and I'll send you the article. heller@bc1.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 19:49:18 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: anyone Subject: CSICOP monopoly on truth Message: from Team Dubious by Ellen Barry Even Carl Sagan, chairman and CEO of organized skepticism, expressed doubts about the movement's outreach tactics; in his 1996 book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (Random House), Sagan criticizes CSICOP for 'the sense that we have a monopoly on truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 23:11:31 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: The phenomena of acupuncture points appearing in electrophotographs (Kirilian) is a fascinating phenomena with no conceivable explanation other than evidential corroboration. I read that some neurologists believe that acupuncture needles stimulate neurons that release neurotransmitters that prevent other neurons from releasing pain signals. 2500 years ago, the Chinese physicians who devised these techniques thought that they were putting the yin and yang back in balance. They had no idea what was taking place on the neurological level. Today, we do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 23:38:29 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: I hate to get in this zoo of a debate- Look, you read a theory about acupuncture which is not proven. Yes, the original creators of acupuncture didn't time travel to our time and thus wouldn't know that THEORY. The evidence for acupuncture which I discussed is not qualitative. It does not support acupuncture merely as an anaesthesia which you indicate that you may. In fact, it would tend to support it overall as a system. Your argument is ass-backwards in that you are assuming anaesthesia-only claims for acupuncture as my hypothesis which I never indicated. Just because you are an atheist or agnostic or skeptical about Eastern beliefs or claims doesn't insure that you are being logical or rational. You do need to use your brain a little bit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 12:01:52 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: Look, you read a theory about acupuncture which is not proven. Yes, the original creators of acupuncture didn't time travel to our time and thus wouldn't know that THEORY. The theory makes sense, even if not proven. We know that there are sensory fibres that lead from the skin to the spinal cord which carry pain signals. We also know that the spinal cord is fed nerve fibres from the cortex which secrete endorphins, the body's natural pain killers. The pain signals won't get through the spinal cord to the cortex (brain) if there is a sufficient amount of endorphins blocking their way. I don't think it's farfetched to theorize that acupuncture needles are stimulating neurons in the brain to release these endorphins. It makes more sense than the BELIEF that the Yin and Yang are being put back in balance, don't you think? Your argument is ass-backwards in that you are assuming anaesthesia-only claims for acupuncture as my hypothesis which I never indicated. I really don't know much about acupuncture outside of this little bit I mentioned in my post. It came from a chapter about 'Touch, Pain and Pleasure' in a book I am reading. Just because you are an atheist or agnostic or skeptical about Eastern beliefs or claims doesn't insure that you are being logical or rational. Who's making assumptions now? How do you know if I believe in God or not? What makes you so sure I think I'm logical, or even rational? You do need to use your brain a little bit. You kill me, Runamok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 15:04:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jerry And Jim Subject: Jim and Jerry's Science Flavor Message: Well, I can't say that we really ever follow our threads very closely, as we were discussing general questions about the nature of science and not the specifics of acupuncture. I personally consider the theory of acupuncture as only a successful pain blocker as revisionism. I am interested in classical Chinese theory and fascinated by the corroboration some modern science provides with the system of points of acupuncture. These are not explainable strictly in terms of the nervous system, although some of them may be as Jerry indicates. Since I wasn't addressing this theory of acupuncture, a response to me as I if had been wasn't very linear or logical- or even communicative. Atheism, agnosticism, and adherence to logic or rational thinking oughta cover the gamut, Jer. I didn't call you an atheist or any such thing but left that open enough to cover you. And honestly Jim, I thouged I sounded a lot like you to my own dismay. I was telling somebody to fuckoff for not being logical because the conversation had gotten too convoluted at that point. I don't think our backgrounds as premies has prepared us for intelligent dialogue. We usually go from a couple of screens which are moderately informative to some kind of slamming match. I thought the thread should've transfered to email, as Mickey and I did with our discussion of early Christianity. I think the more information which is conveyed per screen is some indication of how worthwhile the conversation, although we do like to joke or whatever sometimes. As premies we mastered propaganda and cultist salesmanship. As ex-premies we have often sought to become more educated, but we're still hampered by years of following an ignorant man who lead us into greater ignorance. Intellectual discipline is rigorous in any field and even then there are few guidelines for interdisciplinary discussion. It's not like we can leave Mirageji and get become overnite thinkers in as cavalier a manner as we became cultist indoctrinators. While I enjoy being turned on to new ideas and books, I don't expect too much from these discussions here. Maybe the reference materials could be of use or interest (like the Kuhn book or Skeptic articlle)-but the kind of flaming tone associated with extremely difficult intellectual concepts on this forum seems like a mismatch born in premiedom. Yes, you could tell your parents that BM was the Lord, but really I would appreciate it if you didn't try to tell me that you have the absolute scientific authority because you just read some scientific book. Do you want to grow from leaving BM or do you want to be the same person who was stupid enough to join in the first place? Maybe my opinins are right and maybe not. I give them a lot of thought and research when I am interested and have the time. But, I don't know. I'm just interested! And my opinion won't change what is true in as much as it exists. If I'm wrong is there a God of science to punish who will punish me? Jumping into a full flame debate over my intellectual doesnt reflect my approach to these areas accurately. Why not go for exchange of information and stop being so concerned over who is right and wrong? It seems like the attempts at an objective right and wrong are a lot like religious Good and Evil. Just chill the fuck out over it... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 17:46:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Run's heightened concern Message: Run, I'm comfortable talking about this stuff -- science, then, more specifically, acupuncture, on the evidence, whatever that might be. You keep stirring up all this other stuff about personalities. I don't want to make you feel like I'm avoiding or ignoring anything (I hate being on the recieiving end of that treatment myself), but I'm also most interested just arguing the facts. See, the thing about your post I'm most interested in is this statement: I am interested in classical Chinese theory and fascinated by the corroboration some modern science provides with the system of points of acupuncture. These are not explainable strictly in terms of the nervous system, although some of them may be as Jerry indicates. All I can say is what corroboration are you referring to? My hunch is that the ancient Chinese were simply WRONG, just like the ancient Greeks and ancient everyone else who tried to understand anatomy. We're no more governed by yin and yang than we are the four humours. If you know of any science that says otherwise I'd want to hear about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:56:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Jim and Jerry's Science Flavor Message: Well, I can't say that we really ever follow our threads very closely, as we were discussing general questions about the nature of science and not the specifics of acupuncture. You raised the subject of acupuncture and you never did make it clear what area of the subject you wished to discuss, now did you? I'm sorry you found my contribution on the subject out of place, but it's all I know about it. I thought it might be interesting to share. Since the thread started out about the nature of science, let me say this about it. Jim and Nigel are the ones responsible for my sudden interest in the subject. In fact, before I read Nigel's post on the nature of consciousness, I had no interest in science at all. Now, I find I'm very interested. I browse through books on the subject all the time, especially ones dealing with mind and consciousness. What I like about science's approach is that it's down to earth, it deals with known factors. It's theories are based upon those factors. It doesn't claim to have all the answers and is honest in this respect. It corrects itself when it discovers it's wrong. When I was a premie, I frowned upon science. I wanted answers. Science didn't have them. It only had some. Most of what it had was and still is, theories. Maharaji, on the other hand, claimed to have the Ultimate Answer, Knowledge. I don't believe that anymore. I don't believe anybody has an ultimate answer. Now, I frown upon those who claim to. I guess I've flip flopped. I'm content to join the ranks of those who are taking painstakingly small steps toward realizing the mysteries of our universe, who are excited about waiting for the next discovery to be revealed, the next theory to be proven, or blown away, if the case may be. I believe this is the best that mankind can do. We have to just keep digging and scratching for answers, because there's a lot of unanswered questions. Science seems to be the only field of study which has surrendered to this truth. Religion, and this new watered down version of religion called Spirituality, would have us think that the answers have already been found. They haven't been. I think what troubles most people about science is it's seeming lack of soul. It doesn't fill empty spaces. Well, maybe those empty spaces were created by those very institutions that claim they can fill them. Think about it. We were all taught by our religions that God created us and loves us, endlessly. The only problem with that, is that there is no apparent evidence that such a God exists, so we begin the endless journey in our search for Him. We never find Him, so the emptiness created by that lesson continues. If we had never been taught about this God, if instead we were taught that life is a mystery for us to explore and delight in, as we make our discoveries, would we feel so empty? Would we need all of the answers, right now? I wonder. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 22:12:44 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Well put, Jerry Message: Not much to add except ... no, I guess I have nothing. Well put. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 23:18:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well put, Jerry Message: Thank you, Jim. Coming from you, that means a lot to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 05:34:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jerry And Jim Subject: Jim and Jerry's Science Flavor Message: And Mutual Fan Club. Jim, I specifically mentioned electrophotograph (Kirilian) if you had actually read my posts. Acupuncture points are present in these photographs in amazing detail. Jerry, you can talk about whatever you want to and I don't care what your degree of expertise is. The problem was you were putting words into my mouth, assuming that my interest in acupuncture was identical to yours which I had indicated it wasn't. I don't want to get too picky, but honestly guys, we're not exactly experienced at creating a logical dialogue. While I leaned toward a more rational point of view in the discussions I see on this forum, we still seem to have a tendency to be dogmatic instead of logical on both sides of that coin. Jim, why did you call me defensive for saying Jer was stupid? Really, I figured fuck it, that's what you do all the time.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 06:43:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Runamok has run amok Message: Call me stupid if it makes you feel superior, Runamok, but that's a shallow way to go. It only makes you look insecure. What makes you think you're so smart, eh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 09:47:29 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Runamok's Rules of Order Message: Believe me Jer, you would know if I had runamok and you were anywhere nearby. Jerry, it would be really be cool if you would read what I actually say instead of reacting like a Pavlovian subject to the word stupid. Actually, I was attempting to qualify my earlier statements which referenced your argument (not you personally) as 'ass-backwards' and, shockingly enough, suggested that you might 'use your brain a little'. I realize you are not used to being subjected to such extraordinarily rude behavior and that you understandably react very strongly to it when you are. But you see, as shocking and undeniably careless even RECKLLESSS!!! of me as this may have been, I was attempting to mitigate the unfortunate results of POSSIBLY having implied you were stupid (e.g. your personal disgrace and humiliation) by pointing out that if we do want to accept Jim's leadership in some of these areas, THEN IT'S GONNA BE PRETTY ACCEPTABLE TO SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE STUPID OR TO TELL THEM TO FUCKOFF.. which was alot more than I did actually do. The posting you responded was actuallly to soften the blow, was toward a retraction. Do you ever get the feeling that you are in a conversation and no one is listening at all? Do we want to discuss this? It seems more like a bunch of name-calling bullshit. JIM, just because you have an acknowledged leadership role in this forum doesn't automatically make you an authority on science, logic or any of the like. While I appreciate the possibility that dealing with premies and M sympathizers may call for a heavier hand at times, you don't really seem very sincere in wanting to discuss the issues in questions. You seem like you want to make your own points. At least read what you respond to instead of responding to your own imagined version of my point of view. If that's not a habit left over from cultism, I don't know what is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 11:23:40 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Runamok's Rules of Order Message: Run, I'm sorry we were not able to communicate in a more effective and congenial manner. Hopefully, in the future we'll be more able to. Peace. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:11:16 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Run and Jerry's Friendly Fire Message: Thanks pal. The kind of truth we discuss will not be significantly changed by our opinion, and probably not at all. Our opportunity is to learn more from this kind of exchange as opposed to getting overly concerned over who is right and who is wrong. On the other hand, I hate to hear mirageyish dogmatizing (allow me to freely create vocabulary here). It makes it harder to have a decent conversation. Some of the tactics that we get stuck with while arguing with premies and on-the-fence types tends to trap us when we're not talking to them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:35:31 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Leaders Message: JIM, just because you have an acknowledged leadership role in this forum doesn't automatically make you an authority on science, logic or any of the like. I thought the whole idea of this forum was that we DON'T have a leader. I thought Jim was just a contributor here, though a valued one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 14:02:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Unfair and wrong Message: While I appreciate the possibility that dealing with premies and M sympathizers may call for a heavier hand at times, you don't really seem very sincere in wanting to discuss the issues in questions. You seem like you want to make your own points. Run, This is bullshit. We are actually having a discussion, believe it or not. Everyone might not be responding point for point to everything the others say but that, in itself, doesn't indicate a lack of sincerity. It's just what happens some times. One reason I'm not replying to all you say in as much detail as you mihgt like is that you keep bringing up matters I think distract from the initial subject: science. And I haven't seen anything Jerry's said that supports your questioning his sincerity. Really, that IS premie talk. THEY are the ones who keep throwing that red herring out there. Which is exactly what it is, by the way. At least read what you respond to instead of responding to your own imagined version of my point of view. If that's not a habit left over from cultism, I don't know what is. Here, too, I think you're wrong. Jerry was, as far as I could tell, trying to comment on acupuncture's validity 'cause that's what we were talking about. Your point, that scinece might be redifining acupuncture so it can dismiss the one, small part it apparently can explain away, was never replied to by either of us. Granted. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't responding to you. I think YOU should re-read the thread on that point. But to say that not getting every comment of yours replied to squarely indicates residual cult thinking is .... ready? -- stupid. But I'm not saying you're stupid. Just going there is. Run, you are indeed responsible for muddying these waters. We could be having a fairly clean discussion about science, acupuncture, proof, belief, those kinds of things. Instead, you keep dragging our personalities and psychologies into it. As for your point: The evidence for acupuncture which I discussed is not qualitative. It does not support acupuncture merely as an anaesthesia which you indicate that you may. In fact, it would tend to support it overall as a system. Your argument is ass-backwards in that you are assuming anaesthesia-only claims for acupuncture as my hypothesis which I never indicated. First, I'd ask you -- which I did before but you didn't answer -- what evidence? Second, what claims beyond pain-relief does acupuncture make that should be tested? Also, you earlier said: Acupuncture is legit enough to be a licensed phenomena in most or all states of the US. In order for this to have happenned it passed muster through standard scientific circles. The editors of Skeptic are not the most reknowned scientific authorities last I checked. The phenomena of acupuncture points appearing in electrophotographs (Kirilian) is a fascinating phenomena with no conceivable explanation other than evidential corroboration. Again, you never answered when I asked you why you criticize Skeptic like this. Is that just a cheap shot or do you have some basis for saying that? Further, what's with this Kirlian photography stuff? Please explain and tell me where you're getting it from. I'd like to check this out. Finally, there is no leadership here. As for science, I know very little aobut the field compared to Nigel, Mike and Katie who actually work in it. I do know enough to admire the process, though. Beyond that, I've just done a bunch of reaading in evolution, ev/psych and brain science these past few years. Before that, it was Terence Mckenna and other psychedelic kind of guys. At one point I thought Robert Anton Wilson was the cat's pyjamas. Now I don't. I've grown to think of those two guys in particular as just clever wordsmith's and no where near as admirable as the people doing the acutal hard-work in trying to understand the world, not just blab about it. As for the site, I'm just another long-time contributer who likes to mix it up with premies just like a lot of us. I yell and swear at them because they simply ask for it with their blatant lies about our common past and amazing resistance to reason. You, Jerry and I are acutally discussing something... maybe not perfectly but whatever. The cult allusions are inflammatory and unnecessary, if you ask me. So, please, Run, why not just tell me what studies you were referring to and we can take it from there? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 17:54:53 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: All Subject: Out of Order Message: First I want to remind Jim that I thought that this thread would be best continued through email. In keeping with that thought, I don't feel like your request to continue was a straightforward request to discuss or argue- there is just too much BS flying around to have an intelligent conversation. Jim and VP, Jim has no official title but does dominate in many ways. I am not objecting to Jim having a leadership role but you could get real VP. It seems like if you want to complain about Jim's leadership you ought to complain to him. Jim starts more threads than anyone and makes more entries than anyone. I really hear that dogmatic 'I am right' kinda shit from you Jim. I am saying that you do show leadership in some ways, and in others your still converting us to your belief, now ultra-rational, and we are wrong if we don't BELIEVE! Jim: I do think about these things, but I really don't live and die over them and I don't want to. You asked me for evidence and I told you: electrophotography. Do an internet search if you want to know more about. Or email me if you want to talk about it. This is a good place to dis BM, but we're still in the cult emotionally as far a lot of our dialogue goes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 18:10:44 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Out of Order Message: I'm not complaining about Jim's leadership qualities. He does possess them and there is nothing wrong with that. What I object to is him being called the leader of this forum, which I perceive as having no leaders. We have a webmaster and an assistant and contributors. Some people contribute more than others. I appreciate Jim and his contributions. He is funny and gets me thinking. I was only trying to clarify something. Sorry if you took offense to that clarification. I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you or Jim. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 19:04:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Out of Order Message: Run, I really don't understand the email preference. We start discussions here like little clusters at a party. Taking it outside just prevents others from benefitting fom, contributing to or even laughing at the conversation. I'm not into that. I like it when x talks with y, then z jumps in with their two cents worth. So long as people stay rational I see that all as a good thing. Leadership? I go in fits and starts of involvement. When I'm here a lot I post a lot. Plus, I kind of got the first version of this page happening along with Scott Perry (although he did all the work. I just blabbed and threw in a few bucks). I've been a long-term lightning rod for some premies, largely because I ask for it. But leadership? Sorry, I don't see it. We're not a group that's doing anything anyway, are we? I mean, we're just a big, post-cult cocktail party as far as I can see. Meeting at Brian's place. I will look up electrophotography and will get back to you on it. I do think you're not going to get anywhere arguing with people on the basis that they're too confident of their opinions. So what? We're betting whether or not A is bigger than B. Who cares if I want to bet the family farm on it? The question is still 'is A bigger than B?' What's dogmatic is when people refuse to subject their beliefs to reason and proof, yet insist others accpet them anyway. THAT'S dogmatic. Believing in your position isn't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 19:29:10 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Acupunctured Message: This is from the Skpetic's Dictionary page: 'September 1998. Discover Magazine. 'Needles and Nerves,' by Catherine Dold. This article claims that a physicist has some 'high-tech' evidence supporting the claim that acupuncture 'has a real effect on the body.' What starts off as an anecdote about 62-year old Zang-Hee Cho who fell down and hurt himself, but had his pain relieved in ten minutes by an acupuncturist, deteriorates into a pseudoscientific argument of minimal significance. While sticking needles into a few student volunteers, he took pictures of their brains and discovered that by stimulating an acupuncture point said to be associated with vision-but that is nowhere near anything known to be connected to the eyes-he could indeed trigger activity in the very part of the brain that controls vision. There just might be something to this acupuncture thing, he figured. This is very unscientific thinking. Before making such a logical leap, Dr. Cho should first have consulted with a neuroscientist. Just thinking about something visual will stimulate the visual cortex and there is no connection between stimulating the visual cortex and healing the eye. Even if sticking needles into the foot, where the traditional points associated with eye health and disease are located, did stimulate the visual cortex, it would be irrelevant to curing eye problems. If stimulating the visual cortex could heal the eye, then all one would have to do would be to look at things or imagine looking at things to heal the eye. We could fire all the optometrists and opthamologists as quacks. Acupuncture claims that by sticking needles into certain points on the body, one can heal the eye by unblocking chi and restoring a proper balance of yin and yang. Why would anyone think that stimulating the visual cortex has anything to do with healing the eye, unblocking chi or affecting yin and yang? Well, one could assume this is the case and simply beg the question, which is what Dr. Cho seems to have done. When confronted with the fact that some of his twelve subjects showed an increase and some a decrease of activity in the visual cortex when given acupuncture, Cho attributed this data not as refuting his hypothesis but as supporting it! Those who did not show an increase in visual cortex activity has too much yin! This is a nice ad hoc hypothesis to boot. No matter what results he got, Dr. Cho could explain the data in terms of yin and yang. Nothing could refute his hypothesis. There could be no clearer case of pseudoscientific reasoning.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 21:42:10 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Jim Subject: Punked Sure Message: I'm not particularly interested by your example, because it attacks the guys way of thinking instead of simply his results. Jim, The guy's point that that part of the brain is stimulated is a plausible link but not an undeniable one. I am interested more by studies which address the success or failure of acupuncture treatments. Since it's a pretty vast system with hundreds of points and obviously billions of possible combinations of points, it wouldn't be simple to cover all its bases with one experiment (or one example as you have tried). Some studies seemed impressive that I have seen but I don't have them handy. SORRY, I'm not really here to prove anything. Other relevant scientific studies that might set your skeptical heart ablaze would be the Stanford University studies on telekinesis (or psycho-k, I forget their distinctions). I think the scientist's name is Puthoff. And Rheine at Duke did work on ESP in the 50's I think. You don't have to look at Kirilian data. Don't do it for me, ok? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 13:59:48 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Run, Don't Walk Message: Run, You're sounding a little defensive here, telling Jerry to use his brain and all. I'll look forward to your comments after you've read the article. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:23:24 (EDT)
From: jr Email: None To: Jim Subject: science argument cont'd - Run Message: Science is useful yet flawed. For example it has never proven the whereabouts of the seat of life in a human being, or any other creature for that matter. That's a pretty fundamental conerstone of reality to gloss over... don't you think? Or should we just take life and our breath so for granted? For every answer science unfolds, another 10 are presented. You may consider the fruits of science as progress, but it's just head food. It doesn't ever touch the soul. j Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:21:14 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jr Subject: Funny question, Jack Message: It is Jack Tuff I have the pleasure of addressing, isn't it? Jack, your question might well as be 'why, if science is so powerful, hasn't it located the tooth fairy?' I mean, who said there was anything like a 'seat of life' whatever you THINK you mean by that? Really, you should read some evolution and biology. Want to borrow a book or so? Tell me and I'll bring you one next time I'm in Vancouver. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 22:45:10 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not really, Jim Message: Well done Sherlock! Forgive my flowery tone Jim... by 'seat of life' I mean the switch that keeps your consciousness turned on that once turned off... you're dead. I know you don't consider your own life as something akin to the tooth-fairy... or do you? Say, nice site on the other side, don't you think? Careful, if you keep reading it and you might be swayed back into the light... spooky... Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:01:06 (EDT)
From: Gail MacDougall Email: None To: Jack Tuff Subject: I just wanted to say hi, and Message: Nice site here, don't you think? Careful, if you keep reading it you might be swayed back into the light... daylight, that is ... really spooky... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:13:37 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: Gail MacDougall Subject: I just wanted to say hi, and Message: Nice site here, don't you think? Careful, if you keep reading it you might be swayed back into the light... daylight, that is ... really spooky... Hi Gail. Why I've been reading this stuff since before you were born... as an ex that is. I see you've channelled your natural girlish enthusiasm towards the power of... well, I hope it all works out for you. Sorry you're so bitter. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:08:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: preposterous Message: ... by 'seat of life' I mean the switch that keeps your consciousness turned on that once turned off... you're dead. I know you don't consider your own life as something akin to the tooth-fairy... or do you? Jack, My life is real. I'm with you there. But this 'switch', Jack? Tooth fairy. Really, Jack, I'm serious. Would you like to borrow a book that might teach you a few things of which you speak? Look, I'm no expert and Lord knows my memory ain't the best. Plus, who's got the time to reinvent the wheel? Not me, that's for sure. On the other hand, there are some pretty knowledgeable people who have written some pretty fasvinating books about life, what it is and all sorts of things that -- face it -- you're unaware of. You just don't know this shit until you read it. It's not a comment on your intelligence, it's just a fact. You don't get scientific knowledge by osmosis (hey, the only reason you and I know what that word means is because we studied it in grade seven). So, what'll it be? Ignorance for its own sake or do you have the courage to actually learn something new here? Say, nice site on the other side, don't you think? Careful, if you keep reading it and you might be swayed back into the light... spooky... I'll level with you. There IS something a little spooky about people professing great love and satisfaction for a cult leader I once felt similarly about. I'd be a liar to say otherwise. But here's where we differ. I understand a bit more now than I ever did before. There's no turning back the clock, now is there? See, let's say I get beat up in court, my girlfriend leaves me, my band splits up and I get busted for having sex with two little kittens (I mean real kittens, you pervert!). Let's say I'd feel pretty low and susceptible to something, anything. Say I'm in jail and what do I find? Not Gideon's bible but a core group of premies singing the praises of fuckface. (Say they're a bunch of holdouts from my old Matsqui prison project in 1974 where we turned on almost a quarter of the inmates to the cult.) Anyway, I'm low. Obviously I've fucked up my own life and what do I know anyway? Right? And here are all these smiling faces watching videos and telling themsleves how grateful and sublimely fortunate they are. Say I fell for it and, as people do with Jesus all the time, say I 'invited Maharaji back in to my heart' again. So what's going to happen? Someone like Brian's going to contact me and ask me what's up. I'm going to say what? That I've realized that the mind is evil and I don't really care if Maharaji has been cheating on his wife all these years? That I don't really care about what Mike Donner told me or any of the other scuttlebut I've picked up about the man behind the greasy, pudgy mask? That suddenly I realize that I don't care about all the stuff I learnt about evolution, the Indian superstitious garbage soudns just fine to me? No, Jack, it doesn't work that way. I look at the premie sales pitch on that site the same way I look at little neo-hippies enjoying astrology. Yeah, I kind of envy them a bit. It's FUN to believe in something and, despite all the shitty, shitty things about being a premie, there's a lot of emotional punch in thinking that that fat, little slug is somehow guiding you somewhere. But I know too much now, brother. I ain't gonna have my chart done again no matter how cute the little astrologess is and I'm not going to succumb to internet love bombing by a bunch of two-dimensional fools who can't stop singing the same song because they don't think they're allowed to turn the page in the songbook yet. That might be enough for you in life but I want a little truth with my happiness, thak you very much. Now, how about those books? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:29:10 (EDT)
From: jrt Email: None To: Jim Subject: preposterous Message: Don't get caught up in words Jim... whatever goes when your life gets sucked out of you is what I'm talking about. What has your books and all the scientists in the world proven about what that REALLY is??? If you're talking about evolutionary psychology, as I told you before, I picked it up and browsed and found it suitably boring (plus the print was too small for my aging eyes). By the way, if you call picking up a book and reading it courageous, then we've got to move the goal posts. I'm just as jaded as you are (well probably not as much by the sounds of it) about all the sourcery the young hippies lining the streets of Victoria are consuming. Knowledge however is another story. For 22 years it's been as real as the breath I breathe. 'No, no, you can't take that away from me...' How's Laurie? Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:41:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: jrt Subject: preposterous Message: Jack, I'm not talking about ev/psych. I'm talking about ev/ev. Evolutionary theory is absolutely fascinating. The Blind Watchmaker is a stunning book. There might even be a large print edition if you're lucky. But there's so much more. Face it, we know (at least our scientific frontiersmen know) a lot more about consciousness than we did, say twenty years ago. Don't speculate about how much is still a mystery. Just think for a moment about what HAS been learned over that period? Can you guess? No, you can't. You can just guess you can guess. Capiche? Speaking of knowledge, wouldn't you like to know the latest research on acupuncture being that you stood up for it below? Right now send me your fax # and I'll copy the article and send it to you. But you have to do it now because I AM going to sign off in a bit. I want to play a little guitar, maybe hang with some of the guys in the building. Laurie's fine. X-Flies are playing again at the end of the month. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 00:11:28 (EDT)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: g'night... Message: ...then. I'll look out for your literary recommendation. Jack Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 01:53:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: jr Subject: PremieScienceVomitologyWrkshop Message: And science will never be able to measure the extent to which human beings are capable of cultist indoctrination. The seat of your walking death is more like it, junior. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Oct 12, 1998 at 13:33:27 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: jr Subject: YOU ASSUME! Message: jr: YOU are making quite an assumption. YOU ASSUME that there is a thing called 'soul' that exists somewhere(?) inside your body. You are quite correct, that science hasn't found any evidence of its existence. Could that mean that IT DOESN'T exist?????? Why is science automatically 'flawed' because it doesn't make the same assumptions that you do? THINK ABOUT IT! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:48:35 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Spin of Mark Winter Message: Okay, here's another one. As you all know, it's the revisionism and hiding of Maharaji's 'I-am-god' period (the entire period of my involvement from 1973-1983), by the 'Lives' entries at 'enjoyinglife' that get my goat the most. The entries seem to have all been cleansed of any reference to that period, except to the extent the premies are blamed for screwing up what Guru Maharaj Ji was trying to do. After talking about receiving knowledge and going to India in 1971, here's what Mark, who is 'a founding member' of that website, deceitfully says about the next 13 years or so: In the early 70s, hundreds of us enbraced this rigorous spiritual lifestyle. I became involved in producing publications. We were totally energised to start with, but after a year or so there seemed to be a mismatch. [Say, what?] We were forcing things: we were not suited to the lifestyle we had adopted and I started to feel what we printed was not always really respresenting the teachings of Maharaji properly. [And this blatant lie REALLY gets me.] It was never his role to counsel anyone about lifestyle or career, nor was it anyone else's either. WHAT a fucking liar!!!! Excuse the French, but I am beside myself with anger over this. To Mark, all that period was just a 'mismatch' and the premies were just not suited to some lifestyle they just arbitrarily decided to live, and Maharaji NEVER even suggested any particular lifestyle, right? HELLO???? Remember asrhams, agya....remember SATSANG, SERVICE and MEDITATION?????? Maharaji PRESCRIBED a 100% all-time-consuming LIFESTYLE and to suggest otherwise is just a BIG LIE, Mr. Winter. Shame on you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:52:26 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: JW Subject: The Chill of Dark Winter (nt) Message: creepy :-( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:57:19 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: The Spin of Mark Winter Message: Go, JW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:50:40 (EDT)
From: DR,Truth Email: French10@compuserve.com To: JW Subject: The Spin of Mark Winter Message: Hi, your trying to make us belive that a 13 yrs old boy took over the older bigger person you are. Please! I am from that period and guess what I never felt so good. So since you talk french I would suggest shut the fuck up and dont waist your time and energy designing web page like this. Since you always had free will to choose anyway. My nervous nerve are we in our mind. Who is in his Mind unhappy to the point of doing this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:54:38 (EDT)
From: Dr Ruth Email: Dr_Ruth@bogus.email.account To: DR,Truth Subject: The Spin of Mark Winter Message: Give it time, and that old feeling will come back, I promise. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 00:06:46 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: DR,Truth Subject: The Spin of Mark Winter Message: Hi, your trying to make us belive that a 13 yrs old boy took over the older bigger person you are. Please! No, I am not trying to make you 'belive' that anybody took possession of my body. I pointed out to Mark Winter that Maharaji held himself out to be the living god and his commandments to his devotees included satsang, service and meditation, which was a 100% TOTAL lifestyle, contrary to Mark Winter's lies to the contrary. If you were around then, you know this is true, and if you say it isn't you are a liar too. I'm glad you have never felt so good. Good for you. I also feel good and I'm actually very happy, and I think Maharaji is a charlatan and a fraud. So, happiness is quite possible even for us confused ex-premies. My nervous nerve are we in our mind. Who is in his Mind unhappy to the point of doing this. Are you doing an impersonation of Ricky Ricardo or something? I didn't think even the idiot guru talks about being 'in your mind' anymore. So, you are not 'in your mind.' I guess that means you are 'out of your mind.' That's nothing to brag about if you ask me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:07:16 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: ABSOLUTELY, JW!!! Message: JW: GO FOR IT, Buddy! YOU are absolutely correct! I don't believe our dear 'doctor' was around back then, otherwise he would know better than try to LIE about this issue on THIS forum. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:04:03 (EDT)
From: Paul Email: None To: JW Subject: Cognitive Dissonance Message: JW This lie drags me out of retirement to comment(I also received K in 1971 and went to India). This may be a case of telling a lie so often that it is becomes the truth. In remembering the past of DLM, premies are forced into a state of cognitive dissonance. This generally forces people to either change their behavior or their beliefs in order to restore internal harmony. In order to maintain their guru worship behavior, premies must change their beliefs and perceptions about what is known to be true about M and DLM. Hence, the great revisionism we are treated to by confabulating premies. I remember quite clearly how M took great pride, (and we premies were proud to point out how this was the case) in controlling all aspects of DLM-publications, movies, programs, the Great Ashram Manual, etc,etc. I suppose Winter has just taken the next step from rationalizing and blaming premies to simply denying the past. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:10:18 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Paul Subject: Cognitive Dissonance Message: Good point Paul. I was told by someone who knows Mark Winter personally that he is a very nice guy. [Mark, I apolozie for calling you 'a fucking liar' but what you said IS a lie, nonetheless.] It is truly amazing to me how otherwise nice, honest people can be so deluded, to the point of, as you say, revising history to fit the current needs of their lord and master who won't even admit to his past, let alone take any responsbility for it. Accordingly, the premies have to do it for him, by blaming the premies for everything that went wrong and making truly bizarre and false statements like Mark Winter did, and perhaps convincing themselves that they are true. I doubt Mark even sees what he wrote as either lying or misrepresnting the facts. That's how far cult-thinking can take you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:16:31 (EDT)
From: PAUL Email: None To: JW Subject: Cognitive Dissonance Message: JW I agree, he probably doesn't see it as a lie. If one can continue to believe that M is the Perfect Master/LOTU, distorting the past is a relatively small thing. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 21:22:27 (EDT)
From: Prof John Hammond-Smyth Email: padded.cell@asylum.com To: PAUL Subject: Cognitive Dissonance Message: Excuse me but didn't Mark Winter make some pretty fine hit records back in the early sixties? I was a young fan of his back then. Having followed Professor Maharaji's mathematical formula to its ultimate conclusion, I can only say this; the truth of Maharaji is the sum of the 5th root of -1 and the square on the hippopotamus of a wrong angled tricycle. Here's another quote from our Lord and saviour, Maharaji from back in the seventies, heard with my own ears in that divine Palace of Peace via a phone link from America - 'So premies, satsang, service and meditation; and anything else, you can do without.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 04:47:26 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: Paul Subject: Cognitive Dissonance Message: '.... This generally forces people to either change their behavior or their beliefs in order to restore internal harmony. In order to maintain their guru worship behavior, premies must change their beliefs and perceptions ...' Well put. I remember, particularly during my ashram years, that they only things we may have argued about was whether the 'direction' was coming from prempal or not. It was totally unimportant what the direction was . His word was the only Truth. During honcho meetings, if the honchos wanted something to happen they'd say 'We'll tell them(the common premies) that Maharaji said it'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:11:09 (EDT)
From: nigel/larkin Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: forgive me one last... Message: indulgence, dear friends. (Yeah, yeah - more farewells than Frank Sinatra, I know...) You have read it before, and it ain't exactly John Donne, but it is sincerely meant. The Maharaji phenomenon is, unfortunately just one of many similar belief systems that require you to suspend your better judgement. Just think carefully always before getting involved with anyone who would even consider receiving your hard-earned cash in exchange for some non-physical belief-type thingy that he/she has promised to deliver. (Premies who say they 'never gave a penny' to Mraji are bloody liars. Money = time = effort = dedication = effort and more effort = more time = more effort = more dedication = costly) See you at yuletide. >>> Snake Oil/ Millenium Blues Oh the New Age is a-comin' It's right around the bend So all aboard li'l children For a game of 'let's pretend' With tarot pack in pocket With dowsing rod in hand Just let that feeling guide you To a strange and mystic land. There's witches in the woodland There's UFOs in the sky Crop circles on the hillsides And books to tell you why There's Druids 'neath the standing stones Practising their craft (You'd have to practise day and night To look so bloody daft) (chorus) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? Three hundred years since Newton Have we nothing more to show Than a world of quacks and charlatans All touting for your dough Did you ever get the feeling That you've been here before? Regression hypnotherapy Will take you back once more. Were you Rameses the Pharoah Or a monkey-puzzle tree? We'll bring you home for teatime And a hundred dollar fee. We've stocks of patent remedies Like homeopathy With no active ingredients A microscope can see The weaker the dilution The more it stings your purse At least we're safe in saying It can't make you any worse. (chorus 2) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? Two hundred years of reason - how many more in hope of buying a daily paper without a horoscope? You can take tea with the swami In robes of flowing silk Too bad the holy statues Have polished off the milk. You can join the Solar Temple Albeit for a while - Don't you know that ritual suicide Is coming back in style? Come bow before the Guru Receive his Holy Word There’s dozens here to choose from Every one's The Living Lord A lifetime's loyal service Will one day surely pay For your master's marble mansion Down on Acapulco Bay. (chorus 3) So come and get your snake oil Your runes and mystic signs etc... Oh the New Age is a-comin Like the Dark Ages before Where fear and superstition Shall be the natural law. But if you can't beat 'em, join 'em There's gold in them thar hills, So ROLL UP EVERBODY for your... magic potions, massage lotions, Egyptology, Mexican astrology, numerology, reflexology, new holistic, ancient, mystic, all-organic, non-satanic, (oops!) levitation, subliminal persuasion, scented candles, Jesus sandals, cover-up scandals, Jenny Randalls, UFO- chasing, inner-spacing, circle dancing, mantra chanting, channelling, flannelling, reason trammelling, Uri Gellers, fortune tellers, i-ching, you-ching, every bloody other ching, jetsam, flotsam, Lyall Watson, sixth-sense, incense, books full of nonsense, psychic rebirth, back to Mother Earth, pyramids, bangles, beads and spangles, ley-lines, Ber-mu-da triangles, Indian bells and witches' spells and Zens and Taos and here's ten thousand Cures for all known ills... (chorus 4) So come and get your snake oil... Your runes and mystic signs And why not shove a crystal Where the morning never shines? One hundred years since Darwin... Have we nothing more to show Than a world of quacks and charlatans All touting for your dough? >>>>>>>>>>> My five-year-old son Oliver is cool. He understands what is real and what isn't. He understands how magnets work and whether somebody is tricking you. I envy him. Love to all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:57:20 (EDT)
From: Truth Email: French10@compuserve.com To: nigel/larkin Subject: forgive me one last... Message: Hi Nigel, I dont give Maharaji any money I dont even go to program I enjoy everything about this world the only diference is that i focus within before proceeding with my day. I am a phyician in New York who practices knowledge and is very happy doing so i belong to me, not Maharaji and he would not one anyone to focus on him to that degree since the experience is inside of us not outside. Hope ypu can let go your frustrations lots of love nothing else Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 22:06:29 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: None To: Truth Subject: Join in or piss off... Message: So that's why I can never read a prescription... If you've got something to discuss, Dr Truth, please stick around. There are good people here who will happily engage. Maybe start here: As a medical man/woman, what is your well-trained position on superstitious humbug? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 00:37:12 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: nigel/larkin Subject: forgive me one last... Message: Dear Nigel, Thank Larkin for me please. :) And you get back to work! Love ya, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 16:46:08 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Outback Feedback Message: Got this doozie today. It was directed to the Letters To The Fraud page, but since he never reads the site... You guys think Maharaji reads all this stuff? Get a life! Stop fooling premies into thinking that, you charlatans. There's a big wide world out there beyond your little VDU's and Maharaji spends most of each year travelling in it, to all the countries he can, to see people who love him. Your primary obsession is obvious. But if you bothered to go and make some serious money, you'd realise after a couple of years that it makes absolutely NO difference to how one feels and enjoys life. Having a negative introduction/masthead followed by sincere offerings from grateful premies is absurd, ridiculous. If you're going to run a negative website, then at least do that unsavoury job properly. (suffering from an embarrassing lack of material perhaps?) By the way, there is a positive premie website and by the way Maharaji IS using the most efficient means to communicate his message to the world. If you haven't yet woken up to the reality of the TV company and media publications culture, please do so. Then look who advertises themselves on that medium and the reasons why. Ever heard of 'word of mouth'. Nothing beats what is real, alive. Maharaji, I know you won't read this but I'll say it anyway. I've never given you a dollar and you've never asked me for one. I've spoken to you many times, listened to you a whole lot more and have had a total ball for 25 years of knowing you. These shmucks probably won't even put this on their site anyway. Wot.. me worry? David Roupell - wellcom@mullum.com.au David, don't be ridiculous. Of COURSE Maharaji reads this site! We've got an online map that shows him the way to his nearest bathroom, and anyone who needs as many as he has can't afford to drift too far from one without needing help finding his way back. Great is Satguru, but greater is he who reveals the Throne of Satguru. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:21:07 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Outback Feedback Message: Well Mr. Roupell, YOU seem to read this site. What makes you think Maharaji doesn't? And by the way man, you are such a liar. You say in 25 years you have never given a dollar to Maharaji. This could only be true if you NEVER attended, and paid the entrance fee to one of his 'programs,' never booked travel arrangements through the cult travel agency, or one of the agencies giving kick backs to M, never bought a 'video' or any of the merchandise and trinkets sold at those programs, never bought any food at a program, never gave any money in a darshan line, never participated in the 'active membership program' and never responded to even one of countless 'emergency fundraisers' Guru Maharaj Ji has conducted over the years for some plane, residence, helicopter, tour, luxury car or yacht that he wanted badly. I find that hard to believe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:50:59 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: JW Subject: Outback Feedback Message: Your comments reminded me of what I told someone a long time ago who wrote to claim that he had never donated any money. Those people had a free ride of the backs of the ones who DID give! They wandered into the ashrams when it suited them, shared a little satsang, and went home with every penny they brought. Or they showed up at a video event (like they just happen), stared at a screen that just materialized, and watched a video that was freely distributed by Visions International on the Altruism Channel! Since it never cost them a penny, they could attribute it's appearance to Maharaji's incredible grace. But those who gave to cover the cost, and pay for the tv's and the videos, who donated money to help cover other people's airfare to events and the cost of paying for the jet fuel that keeps Maharaj's ass flying high -- THOSE people paid for David's self deception and Maharaji's self-enrichment. Now some of them are venting their anger here. Sorry if we disturb you, David. Go back to watching videos paid for by someone else and don't worry about it. After all, Maharaji doesn't worry either. As long as the money comes from SOMEWHERE... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:44:42 (EDT)
From: a Gopi--to Brian Email: None To: Brian Subject: Outback Feedback Message: Great is Satguru, but greater is he who reveals the Throne of Satguru. Dear Brian, Thou art truly the Revealer of the Throne. And thou art great. Might I anoint thy feet with oils and bask in thine light which shineth afar? Oh damn, I have to go milk that cow again. With eternal gratitude, Your humble servant, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 01:19:55 (EDT)
From: Gave-a-lotta $ Email: None To: David Roupell Subject: Outback Feedback Message: Who are you, Mr Roupell? Twenty five years, eh? Your name doesn't ring a bell at all in the annals of Oz premie history. Maybe you were talking to Satguru in your dreams. You know, the one who never asked for your precious $ and to whom, of course, you'd never give any $ anyway. After all, you weren't talking about $ when you stared into each other's eyes in your dreams, were you? Go back to the Mullumbimby mirage! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:56:55 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Brian Gaudet Message: Here's an expression from my old ashram-mate Brian Gaudet: Unbelievable! I'm stunned. Discovering this site is truly unbelievable. Will it last? This is amazing. Very inspiring. Thanks for this connection. Once, in 1975 or '6, when we were living in the ashram .... I'll never forget this. It was so weird, yet it typifies the cult atmosphere so well. Weird but really not that strange for the premie mentality -- once, a few of us were sitting around the table talking. I think Cintra was there and yes, maybe Annie, THE Annie (where are you Annie? Where's YOUR expression? Huh? I'd have thought you'd be falling over backwards to lend your INDIVIDUAL voice to the other bats in the cave.) Anyway, we're all sitting around, talking. Nothing special. I think someone told a bit of a joke or something. We must have been laughing a bit. So, here's what Brian did: he goes upstairs to his room, get's his little ghetto blaster (remember how we had so many of these things to constantly drone on in the master's voice?) and cues it up just right. Comes back downstairs, plugs it in and puts the fucker right on the table we're all sitting around. Turns it on and there, wouldn't you know it, is the Lord himself, booming away, warning us about CHIT CHAT!! Warning us to stay out of our MINDS! And there's Brian, bless his little heart, sitting like a baby in front of his little ghetto blaster, sucking it in, righteous, smug, first-pew kind of feeling. And how'd we react? Well, even though we were laughing a bit, let's face it, we were ashram premies. We knew Brian was right. We knew Maharaji was right. NO CHIT CHAT!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 13:05:52 (EDT)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Brian Gaudet Message: Oh fuck, NO CHIT CHAT!!! - that does bring back memories. What a brutal premie rallying cry. I never lived in an ashram so I can only imagine to what hideous extent these 'directives' took. I'd love to hear more ashram stories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 16:55:39 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mc Subject: Brian Gaudet Message: Brian spoke to MJ once at a program in Toronto. He thanked MJ for everything (on and on) and then he included that life would be so perfect if he could just have an angel to share his life with (woman). MJ replied, 'Last on your list--first on your mind.' Nice, eh? The guy got to be humiliated in front of the whole crowd. All he wanted was for the Lord to send him a woman. That's not a big request for someone as powerful as that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 19:30:19 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Gail Subject: because... Message: Mraji is a toad. (don't waste letters when you've wasted years) A pathetic fantasist with a dysfunctional upbringing. I mean - what would you be like if mere grains of sand had worshipped the very toeprints of your feet since you were eight years old? You'd probably be an expert on the importance of humility whilst knowing fuck all about humility, having never been humiliated. (The custard pie came close, though... tee-hee :-) Aged 40 he should fucking well get honest with himself and his followers/ex-followers. The reason I am still here (although I said goobye and thanks for all the fish last week) is because receiving so-called 'knowledge', was - by far - the most meaningful event in my life. Unfortunately, as I have since realised, the 'meaning' was no more than the meaning I willing projected onto this semi-literate clown who only ever got away with his pathetic, messianic pretensions because we, fuckwits from first to last, permitted and encouraged him to do so. God. The mind-numbing stupidity of it all... Gail, you're recovering well (I think/hope) Best wishes, Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 01:08:10 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: nigel Subject: because... Message: Yes, thanks. Thanks for the poem above, too. You can't go now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 17:05:26 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: nigel Subject: because... Message: Nigel: Forgive yourself for being human.... WE ALL made the same mistake with M. The important point, to me, is this: He's been 'called' on it and he still continues. THAT we didn't encourage. In fact, we are encouraging him to quit.... We may be late, but at least it isn't/wasn't 'never.' STUPID we were, but not anymore! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:09:39 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mc Subject: Ashram Stories Message: Okay, here's one. As that old TV detective show, 'Naked City' used to say at the outset of every weekly episode, 'there are a million stories in the naked city, and this is one of them.' There are a million funny and sad stories about Maharaji and his ashrams as well. The first ashram I lived in was around Millennium time. The ashram housefather (who was our 'direct connection' to the will of Guru Maharaj Ji had to always to be obeyed, no matter what an ignorant asshole he might be, as described in the ashram manual JM has online) and the housemother decided that to make us all stronger to serve the lord of the universe, and also to save money to contribute to the Millennium festival, the whole ashram (which had about 30 people in it) should go on a raw food diet. From then on we ate lettuce, carrots and fruit. All raw. No dairy, no grains, no breads or cereals. (I think we did eat sunflower seeds.) We 'surrendered' and did what we were told. At the time, my 'service' was to hold an 'outside job' and bring in money for the lord. I was working in a produce department of a supermarket. I used to wear a big button to work with Guru Maharaj Ji's picture on it. We were SUPPOSED to wear those buttons. Not to wear one was evidence of doubt, and we all know it was one of Guru Maharaj Ji's commandments to 'never leave room for doubt in your mind.' So, each morning we would all treck off to our jobs in our Earth Shoes, weird short haircuts, and wearing a button. We also carried our little shoulder bags with our'lunches' in them, in this case, carrots, celery and maybe some sunflower seeds. One of my jobs in the morning was to unload a big produce truck. In the course of a few weeks, I lost about 20 pounds on this great, new diet. I recall always being kind of dizzy, but then that's kind of the way we were supposed to feel, right? That's what being in this world but not 'of it' was supposed to feel like. Anyhow, one day, while unloading a produce truck, I just keeled over, fainted right on the cement floor. They took me to the emergency room of a hospital and I recovered okay. The doctor asked me what I was eating, I told him, and he said I should start eating more substantial food. When I told this to the housefather and the housemother, they told me I was in my mind, expressing doubt, and that Guru Maharaji would take care of me. But so far he wasn't doing a very good job. The housefather said we were doing a great service to the lord of the universe, because we were only spending 35 cents per ashram resident per day on food. This meant there was more money available for Maharaj Ji and his mission to bring peace to the entire world. Jai Satchitanand and Bohle Shri Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:21:29 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: dhvodv To: JW Subject: Laugh, i nearly shat... Message: Jai Satchitanand and Bohle Shri Thanks Joe, How about Jai Satchitanand and Bohle Ji ? I bet he never got fat on sunflower seeds and celery, nor his living perfect brother. - i mean the one we followed as opposed to the other other one who is obviously still living and probably just as perfect in a (close) relative sort of way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:31:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: nigel Subject: Nigel, Go to Bed Message: Nigel, You should be in bed, but do you recall my story about Bohle Ji and the 'nose-picking' incident? That was a time when my faith in the divinity of the holy family was severly tested. But somehow the grace came through and my faith remained unshaken. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 20:43:35 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: None To: JW Subject: Tell us again, please... Message: I missed that one! Do it quick, though. I have promised myself a 1.45 am absolute zero bedtime from now on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:06:07 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Later, Nigel Message: Maybe later. It isn't that astounding, but right now I'm trying to get out of my office and get home for some dinner. It definitely won't be raw foods. So, go to bed, Nigel. Sweet dreams. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 21:17:38 (EDT)
From: Mc Email: e_mc_42@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Ashram Stories Message: JW, thanks for the story...to hear these stories is truly amazing but only from this vantage point of distant separation from the whole ugly process. It sounds so strange now yet then it was some 'beautiful', divine mission we were all on. God, what crap...Jai indeed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 09:27:38 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Mc Subject: Ashram Stories Message: I remember too, some times when I was sometimes weak with hunger and having to do a strenuous job 'in the world' wnd coming back to the ashram meal of a portion of rice and a few sad vegitables. Hardly enough to keep a sparrow alive. One day I rebelled after a flaming row with the ashram secretary about the lack of sustaining food. I stormed out of the ashram and took my week's wages with me and got the first train to London (from Rugby). I was going to leave the ashram there and then but damn it, I had all the crap about the dangers of leaving the ashram, in my head so I went back to the ashram with my tail between my legs. How could I have become so brainwashed? Well we know don't we. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 10:56:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Ashram Tails Message: For me, Ashram living quickly turned into something between Nightmare on Elm Street and The Snake Pit. The housemother and complete authority was this 'very high person' from my original indoctrination. She didn't seem to like people much, especial young men and especially, young white men. I didn't know it at the time, but she was from the ghetto and had some serious problems. I thought she was from some eastern country. She spoke with a strange, affected accent and looked very exotic to me. Suffice it to say that the bizarre became the routine. Everything was strictly regimented. Life was very sparse and not much fun. I remember riding in the car and commenting on how beautiful the sunset over the Susquehanna River was one summer evening, only to be told sharply to 'remember the word.' Another time I told her (Alice Braxton was her name) we were out of toilet paper. I cringed when she screamed 'if you ate correctly, you wouldn't need it.' Even though my diet consisted of what ever she cooked. Well, things have a way of catching up with these unstable Hitler imitators and one day I came downstairs to see her rocking back and forth, muttering under her breath, while listening to a recording of the guru on an old reel-to-reel. Gone. Nutso. Bananas. We gleefully (me anyway) called Guru Central in Philadelphia. They sent in the Calvary and her Royal Highness was swept away into bongo purgatory. The next and last time I saw her, she was a dancing gopi on some side stage at a festival somewhere. Houston, I think. She didn't seem so high and mighty then, and acted like she didn't recognize me. Just as well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:34:37 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ashram Horror Stories Message: As a premie, I never felt good enough because I wasn't devoted enough to move into the ashram. I was one of the free-loaders who made it to several festivals 'by his grace'. I was so naive, I never realized that the money had to come from somewhere. While reading the ashram horror stories, I got a sense of the cult at an entirely deeper level. Almost like war stories without the heroism, except for the fact that you made it out alive with most marbles intact. My guess is that many ashramites (as well as those like myself who lived on the outside but believed in Maharaji with all our hearts) might experience symptoms akin to Post Traumatic Stress after leaving the cult. With love, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:20:40 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Scott & I Message: Sir: Scott T & I used to go to a place called Quality Pie when we needed 'real' sustenance (especially coffee he he he)..... shame on us.... we were terrible, weren't we!? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 13:13:37 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: JW Subject: That's a good one, JW Message: JW: I'm just glad you survived that wholesome diet! All the while, MR Let-My-Pants-Out is gorging himself on chocolate bars and other 'healthy' foods (that WE payed for) so as to set a proper example for us morons! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:36:19 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Mike Subject: 'Mr. Let My Pants Out' Message: Mike, You are a very naughty boy. LOL:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Oct 11, 1998 at 19:31:03 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: Ashram Stories Message: A brilliant and vivid recollection that deeply resonates with my experiences in the same institution. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:12:57 (EDT)
From: Paul Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ashram story Message: Mahatma Fakiranand paid us a visit at the San Fransisco ashram @1972. He berated us for eating with utensils saying 'do you think you are greater than god? He gave you five fingers, is that not enough.' The housemother dutifully put away all the silverware and we ate with our hands for several weeks until I got fed up one day and got some utensils (ever try eating yogurt with your fingers?) He also also berated us because M's pictures didn't have cloth between the picture frames and the walls. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 14:33:19 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Paul Subject: Changed his name Message: Paul: Your description of Mahatma Faker got me thinking about those times. I met him and you are right, he always seemed to berate EVERYTHING we did. I remember being 'in my mind' and thinking he was actually Mahatma Hitler-anand, instead. The thought made me laugh inside and then I would get guilty for thinking it.....he he he. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 16:35:08 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Mike Subject: Changed his name Message: Hi Mike, I was married to a premie who received Knowledge from Mahatma Fakiranand and tried to emulate him. Back when I was into trying to figure everything out, I decided that my husband looked upon Fakiranand as a father-figure (his own was cruel and abusive). Our marriage was so weird (how weird was it?) my husband used to wear the 'No Chit Chat' button to bed. Hehehe eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 16:58:49 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: eb Subject: HE he he he he Message: eb: Now THAT was funny! Maybe I should wear that button, now..... he he he he he he he! Ah, the heck with it...LOL LOL Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 17:52:25 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: eb Subject: A small additional note Message: eb: Do you remember faker's nasty habit of blowing his nose on his clothes? I always thought the ashram premies MUST be superior because they would actually handle and wash his clothes after he had done this all day long..... yecccchhhh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 19:30:59 (EDT)
From: EB Email: None To: Mike Subject: A small additional note Message: Oh Mike, this is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance! Grossed me out big time! : ) eb going home Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 19:37:08 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: EB Subject: I knew I could do it.... Message: eb: All I had to do was try..... he he he he. Have a GREAT weekend, eb! ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 23:16:01 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: EB Subject: EB you deserve caps! Message: You look good in CAPS, girl. And deserve 'em, too. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:42:34 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum and email burps Message: Sorry about the downtime on the forum. It was my fault, but I think it's all better now. My email crapped out at the same time, for those of you who tried to notify me. Darn Mr. Murphy anyway... It's fixed now too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:09:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: BTW Message: I still have to make a couple of changes to the scripts this morning, so you might experience a few momentary glitches as the file are updated. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 00:41:28 (EDT)
From: bill Email: None To: Everyone Subject: op -gopi nonsense Message: Dang OP, Cmon now, you were hot under the collar right? The comment about 'gopi nonsense-If he was one he wouldnt be here now (at this forum). I admit I thought he was all arti said he was. And all his mom and everyone else said he was. The crown and all his words about being the ultimate ruler and I lived like Eknath giving up all family and desires and whatever I wanted and made doing his wishes my life. The devotee that didnt lose it during the rainy season or dry barren season. Like you I guess, although I dont see why you weren't in Miami around the residence and deca like we were. Unfortunately, while I was living that out, he was not actually all that. Not only is he not the lord, he doesnt believe in any such thing himself. So what is a trained gopi to do? cling to that notion anyway? some have still, and now he is makeing it harder for them by resumeing the play acting about being more than he is. I'm lucky OP,--- JW, Jim, Anon, Scott, the Davids, were in this forum to read and they were not lying and I had been comeing to the point by listening to maharji's videos where I was finally ready to accept reallity. And give my firm mistaken view and very fixed beliefs a looking at. and I consider these web sites ok because if there is a god that wants people to do an hour of meditation a day, and focus on prem rawat, at least he can do it honestly. Why let the false stuff go unchallenged? Why can't it stand the light of day? OP, if there IS a concious power that I can have a real relationship with in life, it has to be true. Honest. Actual. Real. Without a false front. How can prem rawat be the front of god when he doesnt even believe in any god in the first place? He comes from an environment that believes it is ok to pretend to be god for others so they can have the theater that they have a living lord to react to in life. Just because someone has a long history of playing god, the truth is, they are PLAYING god, it is not reality. Yeshua/jesus said 'as you believe, so shall it be done unto you' in life that might be somewhat true. Our belief reacted with life and we had a strong reaction in our experience. Unfortunately, lots of others do also and thier gods are from a to z. If you need to review some of prem rawats words to see what he has said in the nineties, to help you actually listen to him admit to his true state, I have the tapes here and we can go though it. Why would the lord cheat on durga ji? for years with her knowing and not being pleased? He needs to go to promise keepers. What possible response can you give to that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 17:20:21 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: bill Subject: Way to go, Bill, nt Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 20:55:06 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Brummies & the Dalai Lama Message: I watched a most interesting programme on TV tonight. Two lads from Birmingham, England went to India with their Betamax camera and filmed their travels throughout the country. One of the young men had Indian parents while the other one had English parents. Both of their parents lived back home in Birmingham but the Indian guy had Grandparents in India which he went to visit. All of this was shown on the programme and was very touching to see; the reunions between long seperated Grandparents and Grandson. However, on there travels around India, both these guys became very disillusioned with what they found. Far from being a spiritual country, it was a mad house, full of people trying to get their money in any number of scams. To the native and impoverished Indians, these two guys were rich Westerners and they were subject to every scam (con trick) in the book, simply because they had money. Some of the scams were very clever but the common thread was there all along - rich Westerners needed to be relieved of their cash. Fed up with all of this, the two boys decided to seek an audience with the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama agreed to have an audience with them and the two boys filmed it. What struck me about this meeting was the total difference between the Dalai Lama and that other great Godlike figure, Maharaji. There was absolutely no pomp or ceremony with the Dalai Lama; no formality, no pretence that he was someone great or special, just a warmhearted man with a sense of humour. As he sat with the two boys from Birmingham, holding both their hands in a warm and friendly way and talking with them like one would talk with one's closest of friends, it occured to me how different, how utterly opposite it was to those meetings between premies and their 'Dalai Lama'. This head of the Buddist church was completely unassuming. There was no pretence of greatness or humility. Now I'm not about to become Buddist but this does show me just what a 'show' it is that premies fall for. Do they ever see Maharaji as a normal person? Would he ever give personal audiences to complete strangers who were not even his devotees and greet them with warmth and friendliness? Would he ever dare to step down from his throne and mix it with the ordinary everyday people. The 'people of the world'. Or is it the real truth that his whole trip is a scam and he holds the people in contempt. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 22:36:36 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Sir David Subject: MJ doesn't have time and he Message: has too many hangups. Did you know that people have to open doors for MJ. He can't bear to touch them because of the germs. Imagine, the Lord of the Universe who made everything is afraid of germs. He sounds more like Howard Hughes. A guy I know who lived in the ashram for years was dying of AIDS. His sister and brother-in-law took him to a program. He was really sick and spent most of his time in his hotel room. They tried to get the man an audience with MJ, but the request was denied. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 22:37:28 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Another program Message: David, I also saw a program last night. It was an ABC special called 'Why People Believe Weird Things' and it was pretty good. A highlight was the segment on Randi and the fake channeler he developed a few years ago. This guy was a young artist who Randi trained and equipped with a wireless earpiece so Randi, backstage, could feed him clever answers. They went to Australia and completely impressed the hell out of everyone. Fooled every media including the one that insisted on putting the channeler to the test on his claim that his pulse stopped before he began channeling. (There's a trick to doing this and they did it). Anyway, check this out: even after they revealed the nature of their trick people still kept coming up to the channeler telling him that, his admission notwithstanding (i.e. that he was a fake and the whole thing was just done to show how gullible people can be), even then these people professed their faith in him! No shit. The whole show was good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:58:45 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Sir David Subject: Brummies & the Dalai Lama Message: David, your post is a good one, particularly your last paragraph. I, too, have been in the presence of the Dalai Lama, and it is certainly an awe-inspiring experience. His true humility and compassion and simple joy cannot fail to touch all those who come into contact with him (with the possible exception of Mao and some of the Chinese authorities). He is revered as a god in Tibet, yet in reality is the most simple and unassuming of men, while at the same time possessing god-like qualities (in my experience) (no hidden mistresses in the closet there, I'd be willing to bet). Both the recent films about the Dalai Lama and Tibet, Kundun and Seven Years in Tibet are excellent and I highly recommend them. By comparison BM reminds me of that film clip of Mussolini where we see him strutting and crossing his arms defiantly and jutting out his chin. A self-obsessed little tin-pot Lord of the Universe who can never climb out of his ivory tower to actually mingle with the common folk, for whom he obviously has such a disdain. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:54:31 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Joy Subject: Guru Mussolini Message: Italians literally tore Mussolini's body limb from limb at the end. BM is also despised by huge numbers of his ex-followers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 12:04:28 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Runamok Subject: Guru Mussolini Message: Yes, I know what Mussolini's fate was, and hesitated before writing that, as I certainly wouldn't wish that upon Maharaji (or any other human being, with the possible exception of Slobodan Milosovic). But it was just the strutting, egotistical image that seemed funny and appropriate at the time. I certainly don't think there's any need for war between BM and his ex-followers, the debunking of his trip can (and should) be done in a very civilized manner, just the little pinprick of free speech (and thinking) as found on this website should be enough to eventually pop his balloon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Oct 13, 1998 at 01:50:27 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Joy Subject: Guru Mussolini (nt) Message: (Drinking nectar) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 19:44:11 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ex-Premie Expressions Message: Hey everyone, I've got an idea, lets get rid of this useless forum full of worthless interaction and communication, and just have an 'expressions' page instead. Here's my sample entry: At last a reason to get on the internet! The web is full of so much useless information and garbage. Its so wonderful to finally find something worth logging onto! I am looking forward to hours of fun on this site! I also just want to thank Jim for all his clarity and sincerity in revealing to me the beauty and truth in my purpose for living! Thanks again for this fantastic site! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:03:24 (EDT)
From: Here you go Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Shri Raja Ji Maharaj! Message: What is Real Love : 'You know, you could be sitting in a restaurant having some nice food, and see somebody really good-looking. You think, 'Wow.' You just keep on looking at that person, and that person sort of looks at you. She is attracted to you, you are attracted to her, and it starts. Maybe you invite her to your table, or you go to her table, and it carries on. You are quite happy about it, and soon you think you love her. But, is it real love? What happens after one year? You find her boring, and she finds you boring.' The Game of Living : 'Everybody is playing games with each other. The rich one is playing a game with the poor man, taking money from him. The poor man is playing a game some other time with the rich man. The government plays a game with the rich man; the rich man plays a game of tax evasion. Everybody is playing a game. So everybody is playing a game, and you can play a game with them and try to get them into Knowledge. Once they get into the Knowledge, they realize what the right thing is, and everything is fine. There is no more game; everybody knows what is the Truth.' It's not the Words You Should Believe... : 'What is happening in the world: man is running after dollars and pounds. The question is, should man run after money?....If a man who devotes himself to making money sees something greater than money and leaves the money that very moment, and goes towards that other thing, it is very good. But if he doesn't leave the money at that time, it is very bad.' A Sacrifice is Needed : 'We all have to be ready for sacrifice, you know, because sacrifice is real nice right now. When there will be peace in the world, then they come to Guru Maharaj Ji with a nice, Guru Maharaj Ji, I am ready to give any sacrifice. 'Well, take your sacrifice, keep it in your pocket. We don't need a sacrifice right then when there is peace in the world. We need your sacrifice right now because now is the time to give sacrifice. Devote your lives to Guru Maharaj Ji and spread the Knowledge which he has given you,..' This is the famous goats' story .... m never told it! Maharaji of course never asked anybody to sacrifice: Raja Ji did on his behalf! Read it! Shri Jean-Michel Ji .... hi hi Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:26:05 (EDT)
From: Maharaji doesn't care for Email: None To: Here you go Subject: his Rolls Royces, only premies Message: 'In Denver, Maharaj Ji is a big figure. And it's very easy for us to get into, 'Oh, he has all these cars,' and, 'Oh, he has all these material things,' and, 'Oh, he has all this,' and, 'Oh, he is all this.' But, you know, for him, a beautiful Rolls Royce is just a big chunk of metal. He doesn't care. For him it doesn't really matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:51:34 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Maharaji doesn't care for Subject: No he doesn't Message: And he cares even less for his ex-premies. Now if the Lord came to earth, do you not think that He wouldn't search high and low for every lost sheep? He certainly wouldn't call them his enemies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:09:58 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Maharaji doesn't care for Subject: his Rolls Royces, only premies Message: MDCF: So why doesn't he sell the damn things (all of them) and put the money where it will do some good. Why doesn't he sell that mansion and do the same? Why doesn't he sell that smog-belching airplane and do the same? Hungry people don't give a damn about their spiritual well-being while they are starving to death! They can't think about anything but food! That organization that he owns is big enough to put a REAL dent in hunger. That airplane that is used to ferry him around in ludicrous splendor could be gutted and used to transport food to the people that need it. So tell me, why hasn't he done these simple things? Why hasn't he become the ultimate humanitarian? Why did he put his children thru expensive schools with YOUR money when he says to premies that an education is a waste of time and money? - Just a few questions.... care to answer ANY of them? Care to rationalize ANY of them away? YEAH, right, who am I kidding... you won't even acknowledge the questions! BTW, telling me to 'look inside' for the answers isn't an answer, so don't EVEN try that one on me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:55:27 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: JM Subject: Shri Raja Ji Maharaj! Message: What Is Real Love was a very sad thing to read. I feel sorry for the guy and for his wife. Sure relationships start out very exciting and later may involve some work, but they are SO very worth any effort. I don't find my spouse boring in the least. There are surprises everyday after over sixteen years of knowing one another. Poor Raja Ji says people get bored after only one year? Tsk! Tsk! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 14:03:45 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Here you go Subject: Shri Raja Ji Maharaj! Message: This getting bored with women thing, seems to run in the Rowat family. Mind you, I can understand Claudia getting bored with him. Talking of love, I don't think any of the Rowat family know anything about it. They're all at logerheads with each other and have produced TWO Lords of the Universe, who are not exactly getting on with each other, to put it mildly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 16:04:25 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Here you go Subject: Shri Raja Ji Maharaj! Message: Raja Ji certainly does seem to be obsessed with money, doesn't he? If the phrase 'living well is the best revenge' has any truth in it, I imagine he and BM are laughing at us all the way to the bank. I wonder if Sat Pal, the alternate Rawat Satguru, is making out as well? So, not only has BM's trip and organization damaged people emotionally and spiritually, they rip people off financially for the privilege as a bonus. Neither Raja Ji nor BM have ever done an honest day's work in their lives, they just live like bloated parasites off the hard work and finances of others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 16:38:22 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: Bloated Parasite Message: That's a great title, Joy. I get the image of a blood-engorged tick with Maharaji's face on it. And then there is that song: I was just a little child Maya made my mind run wild Then the Bloated Parasite smiled And he got all my cash So rock me Bloated Parasite And roll me (for my money) tonight Rock me Bloated Parasite And say it's all riiiiiiiiight It's all riiiiiight! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 22:23:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Joy Subject: What Raja Ji told me re $ Message: As I've mentioned a few times before here, I once had a drink with Raja Ji (after challenging him the night before at a fundraising program in L.A. in the mid eighties). At that time he was living in New York on an Instructor's 'stipend'. He complained to me in no uncertain terms about how little money Maharaji was giving him. Seriously. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:21:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: freudian funnier-than-hell Message: A pleasant sight Well I'll be blown! I never thought I would enjoy logging on to the Internet. What a pleasant site. Wit and Wisdom is my favourite so far. Charlotte Bennie, a premie from the UK, has inverted the over-blown (?) mind-blowing metaphor premies use all the time into a revealing (?) term of art. Notice how premies either understate or overstate everything? The site is 'pleasant', but Charlotte's lovely little mind is 'blown' by it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:34:33 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Jim Subject: freudian funnier-than-hell Message: You said, 'Notice how premies either understate or overstate everything?' Premies do not think. They have a Master Mind thinking for them, and his thoughts don't run very deep anyway. For premies the world is black or white - no grays. Either you are a premie or you aren't. Have knowledge or you don't. If you have knowledge then you no longer have to do Anything - no thinking, no loving, no desiring, nothing. You have the answer to your loftiest dreams. One day you wake up and realize that Knowledge is Not everything, not the answer - and you have nothing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:42:31 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Laura and all Subject: Having nothing Message: 'One day you wake up and realize that Knowledge is Not everything, not the answer - and you have nothing.' Laura, Truer words were never spoken about knowledge. I understand how you feel that you have nothing now. I think that before too long you are going to realize how much you DO have. I have never had knowledge and I HAVE SO MUCH in my life. I have a great and full life. I feel so much love, friendship, and happiness. I have success. I feel peace. Yet I am not connected to Maharaji in any way (other than talking on this forum)--he is but a mere ghost from my past. I am keeping you in my thoughts, Laura. You have more than you think right now. Joy is right, hang in there. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:52:17 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Laura Subject: P.S. Laura Message: I didn't mean to gloat about how great my life is when you are in the dumps. I just meant to let you know that there IS life without knowledge and that some of us REALLY DO enjoy our- selves. Maharaji may tell his followers to 'enjoy life' but as far as I know he doesn't own the rights to that phrase! I also just meant that things are going to get better for you. They have for lots of people here. Of course I had a lot less invested than some people here did, (JW or Jim or Selene for instance) though I was 'programmed' at a very young age and had to overcome that. VP 9 months of truth and feeling better each day Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:29:14 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: What you've got... Message: Laura: I want to echo what VP just said. You DO have something and it's the same 'something' that you had all along.... You've got YOU! After reading ALL of your posts, I think that I can safely assume that YOU are a really nice person. I think I can safely assume that YOU have a really nice heart. I think I can safely assume that YOU are quite intelligent. I think I can safely assume that YOU are the kind of person (already) that many would aspire to be. These are easy things to forget about ourselves. Once in a while, we need to be reminded of the REAL TRUTH: The MAIN reason that most, if not all, of us got involved with M was because we wanted the whole world to be at peace for a change. We wanted hunger and ignorance to be a thing of the past. We wanted EVERYONE to be happy, always! We wanted to 'merge' with the greatest thing in the universe so that we could be the tools that made all of these wonderous things possible. That doesn't sound like a group of 'bad' people to me. It sounds like a group of really, really good people (and you ARE one of those people, Laura!). We had the 'right idea and ideals,' it was our choice of 'methods' (read that: involvement with M) that sucked..... A simple mistake on our parts doesn't make us a group of 'bad' people, it makes us 'human!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:21:31 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Not a good morning Message: I used to feel protected, chosen, special, because after all I had Knowledge. Now I'm out here Alone, separated because I thought I was special, and I don't want to go anywhere near Knowledge. I used to get some degree of satisfaction out of meditating. It's hard to even fucking breathe and think it's not related to GMJ. sometimes i'm afraid i'm drowning . . . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:57:20 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Laura Subject: Hang In There Girl Message: Dear Laura, Hang in there. I relate to your comment about not being able to breathe without relating it to M. The main reason I stopped meditating when I left M. was that I couldn't dissociate him from the meditation, it'd been too ingrained. All those years of pranaming and arti-singing had forever wedded the two for me. Take my (our) word for it, BM has nothing whatsoever to do with your breath. The longer you stay outside the cult and recover a sense of your own spirituality and individualism, the more comfortable you will feel. I know it's a very uncomfortable place to be when you've just left and are still feeling the after effects of his intrusion into your life, but there's a lot of support here for you, and if any of your family members who were antagonistic to M are nearby, you can rest assured they'll be more than delighted to help provide emotional support for the separation process. (I'm assuming you're a recent 'ex'? Haven't been hanging out at the site much lately, so am not sure.) My advice would be to take things slowly, it took years to built up your concepts of M, and will take an equally long time to get free of them. Don't go rushing off into anything else just for solace. Sit tight in yourself, do what YOU want to do, not what you think some master thinks you should do, and if that is nothing at all, then do nothing at all until something really feels right. I spent about 10 years after K. with no spiritual interests or involvements at all, it took that long to untangle the web of my cult involvement and recover my balance emotionally. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:14:44 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Joy Subject: Hang In There Girl Message: Thank you Joy. It's good to hear your words. Not only do I not want to jump into anything spiritual but most things spiritual are now revulting me. What was once my life is now something I am avoiding. Thank you for the words 'recover my balance emotionally.' it helps me understand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:59:36 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Laura Subject: Not a good morning Message: Laura: The plain truth is that you were as 'alone' then as you are right now (inside, that is). We were convinced that there was someone else in there with us. It wasn't true then and it isn't true, now. YOU were the one with the strength. YOU were the one with the intelligence. YOU were the one with the power. YOU were the one that generated all of that love that you felt. THAT was the 'truth' all along. Let your mind mull that one over and I think you will agree that YOU WERE and ARE a special person. M had nothing to do with your specialness! - Did that help your morning? ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:11:22 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Mike Subject: Not a good morning Message: I was the one who generated all of the love that I felt? I like the sound of that. Thank you Mike. Yes, you are definitely helping my morning. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:04:29 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: Not a good morning Message: Yes but you ARE special and always were, long before the on/off Lord came along. You're special just as you are, without breath meditations or endless Hindu dogma. Each person is special and unique. And everyone alive has a special and unique story to tell. Don't be afraid to be just as you are and forget about trying to be any different. You're just fine as you are now. People will appreciate you as you are now. You were not meant to become someone else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:16:43 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Not a good morning Message: David, your words touch me. They reach inside and speak in such a way that I can understand. Why is it that I can understand and then lose my understanding? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:43:35 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: Not a good morning Message: I guess you lose your understanding because you've got several decades of Maharaji's bullshit programming behind you. But don't worry, it does lose its effect in time. My advice would be to immerse yourself in the ordinary everyday stuff. You know, gossip, intrigue, crap TV programs - anything to forget the nonsense that has been forced into your head by the on/off Lord. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:02:04 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David/Laura Subject: Not a good morning Message: Laura, Just don't watch any Jerry Springer. That is enough to depress anyone. If you have a VCR, rent Monty Python's Life of Brian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:26:07 (EDT)
From: Laura Email: None To: VP Subject: Not a good morning Message: Thank's for the suggestion. I'll rent the video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 13:46:50 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Laura Subject: Better evenings to come Message: That's one of the best films to come out of Britain. I'm a particular fan of John Cleese. He plays many parts in the film. His best ever comedy act (for me) is in 'Fawlty Towers'. He's a laugh a minute in that. I think my favourite episode is 'The psychiatrist'. It's on video over here and it should be over there too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 19:21:28 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Healing with Humor Message: Dear Laura and everyone, I agree with Sir David--I used to roll around on the floor laughing at Fawlty Towers. Night before last, my 7-year old son woke me up at 3 in the morning because he'd had a bad dream. We stayed up and watched an old Marx Brothers movie (the first he'd ever seen). He really likes Harpo; the slapstick was right up his alley. Laughing was a wonderful way to wake up! All who know me are aware of my tendency toward depression. I can really get depressed behind the fact that I spent my late teens, my 20's, and part of my 30's brainwashed in a cult. But I'd rather try healing with humor since it's so much more fun. BTW, I started using the name Running Bear, but my Choctaw mother has now dubbed me Dear Running Bear (or Deer Running Bare--I'm not sure which). Spelling can make such a difference! With love to all, eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 19:58:46 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: eb and Laura Subject: Healing with Humor Message: I agree with eb. I tend to get depressed and take everything TOO SERIOUSLY. The other day I was reading the forum and found a message by Jim which made me laugh so hard I spit what I was drinking all over the keyboard and monitor (a huge mess, but it was worth it). Laughing that hard made me feel so much better that it surprised me. I hardly ever laugh out loud, but it felt really good (and healing, as eb said). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 20:31:48 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: eb, Laura Subject: Healing with Humor Message: Hi eb Or maybe it's Dear Running Bare. I think you should draw a picture of each possibility and see which one you like best. Hey Laura Aren't these guys and gals great! Including you. Reading this thread has warmed my heart, reminded me that there is love out there, and not too far away either. Sometimes I think part of the recovery process is like getting back your ability to taste subtle flavours after eating real hot curries for a long time. We were told so often that the only place where satisfaction could be found was in MJ's s,s and m, and we tried so hard to put all our eggs in that basket. And succeeded, more than we knew, I reckon. So now it takes a while to recognise the more subtle beauty in 'the world': the love of limited but real human beings rather than the 'ultimate love'. The fun of watching a video and eating homemade popcorn rather than doing some massive trek to an 'event'. The beauty of a little creek or a painting rather than the 'light of a thousand suns'. I too can really relate to the coopted breath problem. It's straight classical conditioning, I reckon, like Pavlov's dogs. One thing that helps me is to get into environments that have nothing to do with MJ, like out in the country. The feeling of energy buzzing through life is very apparent there, for me, and it's also pretty clear it was there long before Mj walked the planet, or even Krishna and that gang. Some indigenous traditions recognise the power of the earth, without the overlay of Hindu beliefs. You look after yourself, sweet Laura Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 21:53:06 (EDT)
From: RT Email: mmm To: Laura Subject: Humor from June 98 Message: Sat-song set to Race Among the Ruins by Gordon Lightfoot, from Gord's Gold Vol. 2, - for Gail.Mac Doughal and her brave postings on Ex-Premie.org. AND LAURA! READ ABOUT OUR DOINGS You said you left the 'Cult' but not LOVE. You wish this can be true: (Even though God's freedom rises in you-) Where's the refund for your dues? You make the best of each new day You try not to be mad. Even through the years of premie concepts At least just breathing makes you glad. When you wake up to reality of the decades that we blew Holi Chit! Colors sprayed: wet dreams of Satguru. So go inside-our web site! -And read about our doings Collectively, we've lifetimes of efforts that are brewing. This Forum Page is lettered by the tones of other ones Who left the 'magic' of a 'moment world' - where thinking is undone. You try to understand it but you rarely seem to find A devotee on the World Wide Web to clearly state their mind. When your VISA card is frozen - from the programs where you flew Thousands of dollars spent for a glimpse of a guru Just go inside - our web site! - And read about our doings Collectively, there's lifetimes of experience; we're stewing. So take the best of all that's left, and know this cannot last Love the Creation in your heart, for this lifetime will go fast. Just think about the peace of mind - for now you understand About Thinking - how unusual. Knowledge by yourself is grand! When you wake up and remember all the images that you viewed Hypo-gogic videos. ( We've been Malibued!) Spend time inside-our web site! And read about our doings God knows the 'Net is Greater: It reveals the guru-ings. When you want, awaken others, Just Say Know - because it's true: Chit-wrecked upon his boat - within the moat of Satguru. Go sailing through our web site! And read about our doings- We've earned our Master's. Our degree says: We're sat-suing! RT :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 03:26:01 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: None To: eb Subject: Healing with Humor Message: For instant transmission to the ultimate bliss I strongly recommend 'Ducks's Soup'...especially when Groucho is trying to fool his own double in the mirror. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:21:57 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: jethro Subject: Duck Soup Message: Did you see the antiques road show (PBS)recently? One of participants had brought in an original movie poster from Duck Soup. He had purchased it at a garage sale for very small amount of money. It was worth quite a bit because it was rare and in good condition. Thanks for the recommendation. We will rent it IF the video store has it. (We tried to rent Spinal Tap, on Nigel's recommendation, but our video store didn't have that one.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:57:35 (EDT)
From: jethro Email: cadbury@compuserve.com To: VP Subject: Duck Soup Message: I didn't that particular program. If you can't rent a copy let mne know and I'll try and get you a copy.(I am assuming you are in the UK as I am). BTW another favourite of mine is The Blues Brothers, always has me rolling on the floor with laughter......hmmmmmm maybe John belushi was God.... Regards jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 03:49:11 (EDT)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Better evenings to come Message: That's funny. I have an old copy of Satguru Has Come. Years ago I inadvertantly taped over the first half of the video with an episode of Fawlty Towers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 23:03:19 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Laura Subject: Envison MJ sitting on the Message: toilet admiring his lint-free towels. It will help to bring him into perspective. He really is nothing more than a litte (I'll leave it up to you to fill in the blank). I hope someone is there to give you a great big hug. I can completely relate to how you feel. I have no divine faith left, but I believe in people, (especially me because I'm the one who has to fix my mess). We're 'IN THE WEEDS' right now, but I know it won't last. It's hard to face it all, but what's the alternative. It's rather like love affair that didn't work out or doing drugs--so good on the way up and so bad on the way down. You had the guts to examine your doubts and admit that you'd been backing the wrong horse all these years. Many people can't look at that. Consider yourself one in a million--a real seeker of truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 10:54:26 (EDT)
From: Rick Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I can't take it Message: After op stated that what maharaji has done for people 'would put Mother Theresa to shame', Joy asked for an example. Here's Joy: OP, I'd be dead curious to find out if M. has ever done anything that would remotely qualify as putting Mother Teresa to shame. I feel embarassed even reading about the two of them in the same sentence. Since you know of so many, can you please just tell us one teeny thing that M has done which would fall into the humanitarian kindness category (as in *actually* helping people physically, not just giving them Knowledge and turning them into mindless Guru slaves)? In all my years with him, I couldn't see a thing. OP not being one to shy away from a challenge said: How about a real simple one: A premie diagnosed with cancer who didn't have enough money for treatment. M payed all her doctor & hospital bills. This is within the past three years. (Now don't tell me you think he payed for them out of YOUR donations and you're going to demand your money back.) Move over Mother Theresa. Hahahahahahahahahahahahah Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:53:55 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: OP Subject: I can't take it Message: op: YES, I'm going to say that M did this from OUR donations (or the bank interest therefrom). He doesn't have a SINGLE dime that he has 'earned' by his own sweat (just yours). Do I want the money back that was used in a SINGLE instance of human kindness? NO, he can keep whatever was used for that purpose. BUT, MOTHER TERESA has nothing to worry about with M because SHE did it for anyone/everyone, not just catholics. If you can't see that, then you are truely BLIND, op! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:03:09 (EDT)
From: Joy Email: None To: Rick Subject: I can't take it Message: Rick, see my response to op, below. --Joy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:13:31 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Joy Subject: Well put, Joy! Message: Joy: I read your response and it echos my sentiments, exactly. I can't believe that ANYONE with a brain would compare M to Mother Teresa. I'm not (and never was) a catholic, but they can be rightly PROUD of her (IMHO). M has NEVER displayed any of the characteristics that made up her personality. It was just plain stupid for op to compare the two (especially here!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 22:45:42 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Subject: Fuck Mother Teresa too! Message: Didn't any of you guys read Christopher Htichens on Mother Teresa? Unless he's a complete liar (that's not my read) she was a little power mad tyrant. An empire builder and cut-throat hypocrite of the first order. India was her off-off Broadway and the poor were her stageprops. No thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 23:50:33 (EDT)
From: Sister Mary Elephant Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck Mother Teresa too! Message: Oh my, Mister James! You naughty boy! The sisters all take a vow of chastity. We are Brides of Christ! Please do not lust after us, or we shall once again flee to the clositers and the poor of India will be berift. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:45:01 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fuck Mother Teresa too? Message: Jim: I've read alot about her, but almost all of it was exactly the opposite of that description. If it were true, I think alot more folks (press, in particular) would have picked up on it and spread the word. She was too high-profile to have it any other way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think she was a really good person and I think 'some' folks may have had an axe to grind (for whatever reason). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:36:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Subject: Sorry, Mike Message: Mike, What you're looking at is the widespread effect of one big, fat social taboo -- blaspheming Mother Teresa. Christopher Hitchens doesn't have a particular axe to grind, not that I can tell anyway. Haven't you heard of him? He's a fairly high profile writer these days. He's been a regular at Vanity Fair for years now. I think he's also appeared in Harpers and the New Yorker. But I know him mainly from Vanity Fair. Anyway, Hitchens did a very thorough job of looking past the myth to the person and what he found was astounding. We're talking very Machiavellian power brokering, blatant self-aggrandizing and empire building galore. Some of Mother Teresa's allies in these efforts were less than savoury. Hitchens' book 'The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practise' is available at Amazon. Here's some of the stuff from their page on it: 'What's next--The Girl Scouts: The Untold Story? How could anybody write a debunking book about Mother Teresa and her Missionaries of Charity order? Well, in this little cruise missile of a book, Hitchens quickly establishes that the idea is not without point. After all, what is Mother Teresa doing hanging out with a dictator's wife in Haiti and accepting over a million dollars from Charles Keating? The most riveting material in the book is contained in two letters: one from Mother Teresa to Judge Lance Ito--then weighing what sentence to dole out to the convicted Keating--which cited all the work Keating has done 'to help the poor,' and another from a Los Angeles deputy D.A., Paul Turley, back to Mother Teresa that eloquently stated that rather than working to reduce Keating's sentence, she should return the money he gave her to its rightful owners, the defrauded bond-holders. (Significantly, Mother Teresa never replied.) And why do former missionary workers and visiting doctors consistently observe that the order's medical practices seem so inadequate, especially given all the money that comes in? (Hitchens acidly observes that on the other hand, Mother Teresa herself always manages to receive world-class medical care.) Hitchens's answer is that Mother Teresa is first and foremost interested not in providing medical treatment, but in furthering Catholic doctrine and--quite literally--becoming a saint. Synopsis In a searching examination of the Teresa cult, the author of International Territory: The United Nations 1945-95 passes his final caustic judgement on Mother Teresa, reviewing her surrogate role as propagandist for the most extreme views, and concluding that she is not heaven's agent on Earth. 'Hitchens argues his case with consummate style.'--New York Times. 20 illustrations. --This text refers to the paperback edition of this title -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Customer Comments Average Customer Review: Number of Reviews: 10 A reader from kansas , May 22, 1998 If Hitler ran a hospice, he'd hire Mother Theresa I am so glad someone finally had the nerve to publish what the Sisters of Charity are really doing to those unfortunate enough to crawl through their door. The Catholic Church has milked the little nun for all she was worth. Hitchens, as always, writes what we have all seen (if you visit the hospices, you'll know what i'm talking about). Most journalists just re-type the press releases. Even more frightening, the public tolerated Mother Theresa's cynical theft and malappropriation of millions as if she had the right to put money given in good faith to ease suffering into Swiss banks to enrich the Catholic Church. Mother Theresa's life was a living example of how so many so-called 'Christians' treat those in need. They don't have any interest in relieving suffering. After all, if lighting enough candles would actually brighten up the world, then where would they get all those great photo opportunities? --This text refers to the paperback edition of this title imli@gte.net from Seattle, WA , February 16, 1998 Ma Teresa exposed I have always maintained that mother Teresa was a media creation, meticulously crafted by the catholic church using the imagery of the poor as a backdrop for emotional appeal. I have been to her warehouses for the 'poorest of the poor' and was appalled at the lack of professional medical care, as well as the lack of toys for abandoned children. Christopher Hitchens has done this blind world a huge service by exposing this media morphed nun. Many, many Indian men and women are serving the needs of the poor in more productive ways than M Teresa. However, the western media finds it imperative to celebrate the work of an European Albanian nun, the image if the 'white' savior in a savage land. Hitchens should be honored for exposing these lies.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 12:15:49 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's ok Jim.... Message: Jim: Hey... if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. WOW, that's some pretty damning stuff! I'll definitely pick the book up from amazon. Thanks for the 'wake-up' call...it's appreciated! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 13:02:17 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, I Agree Message: Jim, I did read Hitchen's book, as well as some other stuff on the subject, and I have to say I agree with you. Hitchens has always been willing to put himself on the line and take on established icons and paradigms, kind of like Noam Chomsky. [Of course, given that Hitchens is a major fan of Noam Chomsky, and considers Chomsky the most outstanding intellect of our time, that might make YOU think he is just derranged.] Anyhow, it's pretty clear that the finances of MT don't add up. She has accepted millions and millions, and yet VERY LITTLE seems to get to the people she was suppposedly trying to help -- the poorest of the poor, and she felt not need to give any accounting whatsoever. In addition, she DID use he 'saintly' influence to lend credence to some real assholes, like Duvalier in Haiti, (as well as the military government that overthrew Aristide), the Contras in Nicaragua, the military dictatorship in Chile, and she is a stalwart supporter of the most extreme of Catholic doctrine, like banning all birth control and ANY family planning services, even in the poorest and most over-populated countries. She is so extreme that she preaches that 'suffering is good' and therefore does nothing to try to reduce the pain of the dying people who come under her organization's influence, and even denies medical procedures that could save lives, maybe because they might cost some of her money. I'm sure she has done some good stuff, but I also agree she was mostly a media creation and very savy when it came to exploiting her saintly image. And she didn't seem to care if ordinary poor people suffered in the process. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 13:26:13 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Jim, I Agree Message: So you really think you've got me with this Hitchens/Chomsky paper/rock/scissors game, do you? Joe, I'm perfectly willing to accep the fact that Htichens is clever, that he's a good writer, that he found the dirt on Mother Teresa (she's dead now, by the way) AND is fooled like a lot of other intelleigent people by Chomsky's dog and pony show. Let's put it this way. I don't think Hitchens is any smarter than you, for example. I think YOU'RE fooled by Chomsky. So what's the problem? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Oct 08, 1998 at 14:50:57 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Right, Okay Message: Yeah Jim, I did notice that Mother Theresa died. Given the media hype you would have had to have been on Mars not to know that. I expect the church and others will continue to use her image for their own purposes. I don't know what effect her death will have on her little empire. My point about Hitchens is that since you seem to believe Chomsky is patently off the wall, and since Hitchens thinks he's the most astounding intellect of our time, I just wondered if that had any impact on your faith in anything Hitchens says. As for me, I agree with Chomsky on some of his stuff, but I don't believe I've ever heaped the lavish praise on him that Hitchens does. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |