Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 43

From: Mar 20, 1999

To: Apr 5, 1999

Page: 3 Of: 5



Jim -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:48:55 (EST)
__VP -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:22:43 (EST)
__SHP -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:08:41 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Premie fun -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:58:56 (EST)
______SHP -:- To Runaround...er Runamok -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:58:25 (EST)
________Runamok -:- and thank YOU -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:43:55 (EST)
__________SHP -:- just couldn't resist... -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:16:17 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- just couldn't resist... -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:43:36 (EST)
____Jim -:- You're an idiot, SHP -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:17:14 (EST)
______CD -:- wisdom of the rational -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:59:53 (EST)
________Jim -:- Fuck you, Chris -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 23:16:42 (EST)
__________SHP -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:35:10 (EST)
____________CD -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 18:10:22 (EST)
______________B-eer -:- CD, was this post after a few? -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 20:55:01 (EST)
______________Victoria -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST)
________________Victoria -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:16:05 (EST)
__________________CD -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:37:23 (EST)
____________________Victoria -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:06:38 (EST)
______________________CD -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 15:28:20 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Careful what you wish for, CD -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:43:46 (EST)
____________gerry -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 19:14:06 (EST)
______________SHP -:- You need work on your appraoch -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 11:55:34 (EST)
________________gerry -:- You need something -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:19:20 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- websites -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:40:45 (EST)
____________________gerry -:- websites -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:58:01 (EST)
______________________SHP -:- websites -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 14:52:41 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- tsk, tsk, baa, baa -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:24:55 (EST)
____________Brian -:- Change your own diapers -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 00:38:01 (EST)
______________Mike -:- BWAH HA HA HA... -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 12:55:00 (EST)
______________SHP -:- For-um, no, For-you, yes. -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 16:39:25 (EST)
________________Runamok -:- Shp for Forum, No. -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 17:29:26 (EST)
________________Katie -:- to SHP and all -:- Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 03:08:35 (EST)
____Mike -:- Laws of physics -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:30:08 (EST)
______SHP -:- Reply to Mike -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:56:59 (EST)
________Jim -:- Reply to Sheep -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:46:30 (EST)
__________SHP -:- Jim's patrolling the threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 12:55:20 (EST)
____________JHB -:- Jim's patrolling the threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:09:40 (EST)
______________SHP -:- Jim's patrolling the threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 21:57:09 (EST)
________________Victoria -:- Victoria's reading threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:01:41 (EST)
__________________SHP -:- Victoria's reading threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:11:30 (EST)
____________________Victoria -:- reading threads -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:20:44 (EST)
__________________Jethro -:- Victoria's reading threads -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:45:24 (EST)
____________________Victoria -:- To Jethro -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 10:36:28 (EST)
______________________Jethro -:- To Victoria -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 13:30:38 (EST)
________________________Helen -:- To Victoria -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 14:35:13 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Now, who's doin' it? -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 12:17:54 (EST)
________Mike -:- Reply to Mike -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 11:33:17 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Faith and critical thinking -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:32:39 (EST)
______Mike -:- You hit it right on the head -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:47:11 (EST)
________Jim -:- It's 'atheist', Mike (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:48:52 (EST)
__________Mike -:- oooops! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:56:30 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- oooops! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 11:52:39 (EST)
________Sir Dave -:- Pulling it out with pliers -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:06:53 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- Evidence? -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:29:12 (EST)
____________Sir Dave -:- Evidence? -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 20:43:08 (EST)
__________Runamok -:- pulling your what with pliers -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:57:33 (EST)
____________Sir Dave -:- pulling your what with pliers -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 20:33:14 (EST)
________bill -:- You hit it right on the head -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 02:34:58 (EST)
____nigel -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 22:11:33 (EST)
______SHP -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:00:28 (EST)
________nigel -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 07:20:50 (EST)
__________Mike -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 13:09:24 (EST)
____________SHP -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 17:23:44 (EST)
______________Mike -:- Amazing yes, miraculous, no... -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 18:02:37 (EST)
__Jethro -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:48:18 (EST)
____Jethro -:- EXs please read -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:51:50 (EST)
______Helen -:- EXs please read -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:38:57 (EST)
________JHB -:- EXs please read -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 08:57:38 (EST)
________Jethro -:- Helen please read -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:46:55 (EST)
__________Helen -:- Jethro please read -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 22:06:23 (EST)
____________Jethro -:- Helen please read -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:34:50 (EST)
______________Helen -:- Jethro please read -:- Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 14:42:01 (EST)
__WARREN BOOTY -:- Ex-premie Boubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:52:18 (EST)
____cp -:- Doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 06:51:40 (EST)
______Zac -:- Doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:27:25 (EST)
________Jim -:- Hey, I was just kidding! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:31:20 (EST)
________cp -:- Doubts Zac -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:07:45 (EST)
______bill -:- Doubts -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 02:43:48 (EST)
__JW -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 13:51:37 (EST)
____Rick -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:25:47 (EST)
__Victoria -:- Ex-premie doubts -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:00:24 (EST)
____Jim -:- I had my feet kissed -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:50:23 (EST)
______Victoria -:- I had my feet kissed -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:54:34 (EST)
________Jim -:- She does bite gently -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:08:55 (EST)
__________Victoria -:- too funny! nt -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:18:40 (EST)
__________Helen -:- She does bite gently -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:46:07 (EST)

Alonzo Front -:- premies.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:08:50 (EST)
__Helen -:- premies.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:52:14 (EST)
____Alonzo Front -:- premies.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:05:42 (EST)
______gerry -:- premies.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EST)
______Helen -:- premies.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:26:31 (EST)
____Maharaji -:- replies to his critics (new) -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:08:51 (EST)
__Katie -:- premie.org -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:57:31 (EST)
____Brian -:- Thanks for the webpage, Harlan -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 01:24:37 (EST)
__Alonzo Front -:- Last edition -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:24:15 (EST)
____gerry -:- Last edition -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:34:54 (EST)
______Mike -:- Can you believe this? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:56:58 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Can you believe this? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:22:42 (EST)
____Victoria -:- Last edition -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:16:08 (EST)
______DUPEY -:- Last edition -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 08:12:28 (EST)
________Victoria -:- Who Him? -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:18:05 (EST)
__Sir Dave -:- Use this template -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:33:42 (EST)
____Jim -:- Harlan's a big baby -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:34:51 (EST)

Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:50:05 (EST)
__gerry -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:03:48 (EST)
____Nim -:- Am I ever glad you're on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:52:58 (EST)
______gerry -:- Am I ever glad you're on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:10:32 (EST)
________Nim -:- Am I ever glad you're on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:07:38 (EST)
__________gerry -:- Am I ever glad you're on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:15:58 (EST)
____________Nim -:- Am I ever glad you're on ... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:15:27 (EST)
______Alonzo Fron -:- A spoiled brat makes a face... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:18:04 (EST)
__John -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:15:49 (EST)
____Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:28:31 (EST)
____VP -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:37:01 (EST)
______Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:44:37 (EST)
________VP -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:21:45 (EST)
__________Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 23:19:48 (EST)
__JW -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:25:40 (EST)
____Zac -:- Like a gang of Jagdeo's ha ha -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:44:51 (EST)
______Nim -:- Like a gang of Jagdeo's ha ha -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:22:42 (EST)
______gerry -:- warning--this may piss you off -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:42:08 (EST)
________Nim -:- warning--this may piss you off -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:44:09 (EST)
__________Zac -:- $500,000 per hour party -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:37:45 (EST)
____________Nim -:- $500,000 per hour party -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:56:48 (EST)
____Fakiranand -:- Maharaj ji's toilet... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:55:04 (EST)
____Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:02:33 (EST)
______JW -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:00:21 (EST)
________Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:38:19 (EST)
__________Zac -:- Amtext Tactics -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:52:27 (EST)
____________Nim -:- Amtext Tactics -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:53:39 (EST)
__________JW -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:37:20 (EST)
____________Nim -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:13:46 (EST)
______________JW -:- Sue Amtext? -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:46:29 (EST)
________________Nim -:- Sue Amtext? -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 19:30:10 (EST)
______Liz -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:16:08 (EST)
__Mary M -:- The day the 'lass' ran away! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:50:50 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- Put yourself in her shoes -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:58:37 (EST)
______Nim -:- Put yourself in her shoes -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:58:52 (EST)
________Zac -:- AMEN! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:54:01 (EST)
____mom -:- The day the 'lass' ran away! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:42:59 (EST)
______g's mom -:- yeah..I can see it... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:25:48 (EST)
____Nim -:- The day the 'lass' ran away! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:53:26 (EST)
____Runamok -:- The day the 'lass' ran away! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 01:21:24 (EST)
______Mary M -:- Mass Hysteria -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:57:51 (EST)
________janet -:- Hysteria and no boundaries -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:09:38 (EST)
__________Mary M -:- Hysteria and no boundaries -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:19:04 (EST)
________Runamok -:- premies = mahatma free lunch -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 17:05:29 (EST)
______bill cooper -:- The day the 'lass' ran away! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:05:16 (EST)
__Liz -:- The day Wadi Sue ran away -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:01:52 (EST)
__Incredulous -:- She drives a..... -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:55:41 (EST)

This just in! -:- Goober spills the beans! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:36:55 (EST)
__gerry -:- More... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:46:22 (EST)
____gerry -:- even more... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:56:04 (EST)
______VP -:- even more... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:58:18 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- even more... -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 11:55:34 (EST)
________gerry -:- even more... -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:48:30 (EST)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- even more... -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:23:43 (EST)
____________gerry -:- even more... -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 17:31:55 (EST)
____Mike -:- HE IS WRONG! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:11:04 (EST)
______Gerry -:- HE IS WRONG! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:22:20 (EST)
________Helen -:- HE IS WRONG! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:15:08 (EST)
____VP -:- Say what you mean, Maharaji! -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:10:59 (EST)
______Helen -:- Say what you mean, Maharaji! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:36:00 (EST)
__Mike -:- There he goes again -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:57:26 (EST)
____Marshall -:- Maharaji = Mr. Negative -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:30:39 (EST)
______Runamok -:- Maharaji = Mr. Negative -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:55:55 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:48:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
If Maharaji's not the Lord of the Universe, why does it feel so good every time I click the light on Maharaji.com? Why do premies claim to be happier than they've ever been and dripping in rich, divine gooey love? Why does Maharaji keep telling the premies how much he loves them? Why do premies keep saying their hearts are overflowing in gratitude?

If Maharaji's not the Master of the Heart, why do premies keep saying he is? And what about their experience which, after all, aligns more or less perfectly with the universal principles elucidated in Jonathan Livingstone Seagull? How's that all happen if he's a fake?

And what about that postcard Shri Hans sent, eh? Am I the only one who wakes up in the middle of the night sometimes, realizing there's some evidence I've never really been able to account for? I mean, think about it, if Maharaji's just a fraud, that means both he and his father were wrong and you've seen how long and silvery his father's hair was, haven't you? He had two wives, you know. Think about it. Maybe he really did know what was cooking.

And besides, Maharaji's a successful investor and I, unfortunately, am not. Obviously, if one of us is divine it sure isn't me. That leaves him, doesn't it? Inescapable logic, I'm afraid. Doesn't that ever eat at you a bit?

Besides, I've never even seen Monica Lewis. I hear she's pretty and everything but what if she's really pretty? I mean who am I to judge, you know? Do I have a bunch of people willing to pay real money for collections of my terrible poetry? No, I don't. So what's with all this certainty?

Sorry, it's just sometimes I have to wonder. What if...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:22:43 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
Jim,

Doubts be gone!
I have every confidence in the world that if our Daddies had silvery hair, two wives and set you and I up as Lords, we would have risen admirably to the challenge. In fact, I'll bet the whole damn world would have knowledge by now-snicker!

Yes, you too can be a great investor and live in Malibu. Just have God for a Daddy.

Anyway, do you really think Monica as pretty as Laurie? LOTU you're not, but you've got Laurie anyway.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:08:41 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
Jim:

As long as your adroit cynicism clouds and flavors your thinking, as illustrated so subtly and well in your above post (including the cleverly placed bold letters), you'll never know for sure about anything, including Maharaji. Faith is not logical, nor is it subject to worldly critical thinking.

When I was an aspirant, I lived with an engineer who was also a premie. One night I remember we stood outside on a very clear full moon night and looked at the sky. Tom just stood there and said a few words (he was a quiet guy) about how amazing it was that the moon, weighing billions of tons, was just suspended there in space like a bubble in a lava lamp...being an engineer and a premie he could appreciate the fact that the universe does not run by man's rules, but rather we are subject to the laws of the universe. What we call 'the rules' are merely the limits of our understanding, which is miniscule in the big picture.

OK, rip and tear if you will...you can attack my snytax, my opinion, my spelling and grammer, my alliance with Maharaji, or just about any old thing you want....go for it. Or read it and think, read it and feel.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:58:56 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Premie fun
Message:
The following post is a parody and not meant to be taken literall or seriously. PARODY POST.

Gee Ship, I know what could be really fun. You could try lighting matches right up close to a bunch of gasoline. Wow, and feel the Word while you do it! Wait, you could get a torch, and then get in as close a proximity as possible to a large open container of gasoline, and then try to shoot the flame as close as possible without touching it! Man that would really be a peaceful mellow and guruvy way to express your love for God and to share that love with your fellow man. That would really prove that you love God and have an understanding that others (we know who were talking about, don't we ;>]} can never have. Man Ship, you are a regular saint aren't you?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:58:25 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok & Co.
Subject: To Runaround...er Runamok
Message:
Run,

Thanks for reminding me that I need to include 'parody' in the 'rip and tear' clause next time. Also, thanks for reminding me that no matter who I am or what I have done in my life, any sincerity posted here will be met by the mad dog anger of some hurt and sick people...sometimes in the form of parody.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:43:55 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: and thank YOU
Message:
Yes Shp, in our last interaction before this one, you PROMISED that you would never post to me again. You SWORE with a self-righteous piety to put a televangelist to shame. And what did I say to you?

I said, you are so full of shit, you'll posting to me as soon as possible. I should have said, as soon as some people forget that you've said it. Anyway, you proved me 100% correct.

And here you are posting to me, IMMEDIATELY, after I commented on your post. You had the option to ignore me, but apparently that wasn't good enough. You took the FIRST chance you had to post to me.

I think you should also let us know that when Gerry created a website in your honor, 'The Sheep Channel', you threatened him and people who posted there with legal action. It shows what your real attitude toward the people posting on this forum really is.

You think you're better than us and you're here to proselytize. Go proselytize the gurunoids, Shippy hon!

Anyway, it's always nice when you leave for awhile.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:16:17 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: just couldn't resist...
Message:
Yer right, I'm a hypocrite for posting to you again. I forgot about that. Sometimes bad habits are hard to break.

I don't think I'm better and I wasn't proselytizing.

As for the character assasssination site that Gerry set up and your lumping that with my 'real attitude toward people posting on this forum really is', you are simply hiding behind 'people'. My feelings about the ones who set that site up are not my feelings towards the general population of this site. As a matter of fact, my feelings are individual towards each person in my life.

You and Gerry and whoever else is in on my 'honorary channel' are not 'the people' of this site. You are just a couple of jerks who happen to be ex-premies. I don't think all ex-premies are jerks. But you know that already. It's a shame someone with your obvious intelligence stoops to such silly shit as expressed in your last post.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:43:36 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: just couldn't resist...
Message:
Breaking your sworn oath to never post to me again? So, the next thing you will do is post to me again. See Shp, you give me the impression that your word has absolutely no value whatsoever. Is it possible you are essentially farting out of your mouth?

I don't really care what you think about whoever but you have obviously labelled me and Gerry as being one of a kind because I posted on his site. I think the site os funny, and all he does is post your own satsangs. Yeah there's a little humor, but my guess is that you don't proofread your posts in the first place- so reading them a week later comes as a total shock to you.

I guess you can at least stop making promises. You originally said you would never post HERE again. Then you said you would never post to me again. Then you threatened the exes on the Sheep Channel with legal action. You're a lot of fun, Shp.

I mean, I was looking forward to you not posting here but, hey, c'est la vie.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:17:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: You're an idiot, SHP
Message:
Well, if not a real idiot, you might as well be. You act like one anyway. Take this statement here:

Faith is not logical, nor is it subject to worldly critical thinking.

Where'd you get that idea? Do you even know? You can't possibly believe it just came to you one night, a stroke of original understanding, fresh, striking in its brilliance. No, Shp, you got this idea where we all got it, out of the back of some religious comic book. So what you've done is just tell yourself you like it. It's a great idea and you're going to cherish it forever.

To that end you'll argue it as logically as you possibly can. Should you ever start talking with someone who's never heard this fascinating idea before, you'll explain it as logically as possible. If they have any questions, you'll answer them. In short, you'll try to make sense of it for them, easier to digest. If they seem to 'get it', you'll reinforce their 'understanding' with all sorts of examples from your spiritual storybook mind, just like others did with you, hoping to bolster that 'understanding', to give them even more reason to believe. And all along you'll consider this thinking free of any of the constraints of rationality, beyond the pale of critical thinking. After all, isn't that what the idea is anyway? That you don't have to think well, you can, instead, just cling to a belief?

Sorry, that kind of thinking's stupid. It's not just paradoxical (yeah, I know -- you love that. Some other comic book had a whole feature on how cool paradox is, right?). It's hypocritical. Isn't it?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:59:53 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: wisdom of the rational
Message:
>Where'd you get that idea? Do you even know? You can't possibly believe it just came to you one night, a stroke of original understanding, fresh, striking in its brilliance. No, Shp, you got this idea where we all got it, out of the back of some religious comic book.

You are starting to sound like Midas.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 23:16:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Fuck you, Chris
Message:
You are starting to sound like Midas.

By the way, I have no idea what you mean by this (I guess I didn't get all the same comics you did) but fuck you anyway. Fuck you for denying human nature, your own thought process, the past and the present. Fuck you for denying logic and the fair meaning of words all the while posturing like some smiley-faced yoda who sees so much more than your fellow man.

Fuck you, Chris, for your outrageous hypocrisy. Nothing you say here rings true. You've posted for longer than about anyone here, Chris. Yet you've never had the courage to step around the cult member mask and talk like a real person, put your real feelings and thoughts on the line. You're fake, phony and two-dimensional, Chris and, worse, that seems to be just the way you like it. Hell, people get used to all sorts of perversions, I guess. You seem to actually enjoy what you've turned into -- a wannabe simpleton. Life's a little too something or other? Dark, perhaps? Scary? Why not try to live it out as Forrest Gump?

You're one person, Chris, I'd really like to have a drink with. I'd love to see you try to maintain your front after a few. Who knows? Maybe I'd be lucky and see you actually lose your smirk for once. Get real, Chris. Literally.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:35:10 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Jim/Katie/Brian
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
Jim,

When you get away with starting your posts with 'fuck you' and 'you're an idiot' and countless other 'cut them off at the knees tactics' strewn all over this site and in the archives, I can't really blame just you. It's the responsibility of the keepers of this site to deal with you, whatever agreements or disagreement we may have about anything else, you really need to work on your approach.

Katie/Brian, any comments? Does Jim have to set the world on fire before he gets busted for flaming? Or does he have special privileges?
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 18:10:22 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
>Does Jim have to set the world on fire before he gets busted for flaming?

Jim should be allowed to write what he wants. He does at least have the integrity to put his real name on his messages.

When he goes overboard with rude and insulting behaviour he does himself no favours. A small group of followers are amused and others just wonder about the total package. If Jim actually puts threatening words into action then that is another matter. He has certainly provided ample evidence as to wether he can be trusted or not by his own words. He writes a lot of: smart things, arrogant points of view based on suboptimized rationality, smear retoric, legal jousting positions and foolish outbursts born of frustration. In the past he wrote a couple nice songs.
As far as trusting him, I expect that he would stab me in the back when the reward of the opportunity was sufficient. It is true that both he and I have read each others posts for a couple years now. We both must be a bit crazed - g.

A big smile to Jim - G.

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 20:55:01 (EST)
From: B-eer
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, was this post after a few?
Message:
Jim had said he would like to see you post after a few.
Just wondering. The term suboptimized-rationality was funny.
Your post was more wordy than most and that was good to see.
You didn't however mention his humor, which sometimes is
sarcastic only and sometimes harsh but other times he
has shown a surprising degree of inventive comedy.
Hense the applause.
Your post was funny also.
a big hug to your usually poker face mug.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
Excuse me, but it looks like he is stabbing you in the front, not the back.

victoria watching....
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:16:05 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
P.S. Stabbing you in the front seems to be the main complaint, also...that he is so openly contemptuous...

definitely not back-stabbing.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:37:23 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
>P.S. Stabbing you in the front seems to be the main complaint, also...that he is so openly contemptuous...
definitely not back-stabbing.

I did not say he was currently in back-stabbing mode. And, I'm not complaining just commenting. I know Jim to be quite a clever fellow. And a good writer.
What I said is that I know better than to trust the guy. I've already had practical experience dealing with him. Trading a few words whatever they might be doesn't bother me. Jim could do me a small favor: mix the polarity and touch his nose to the michrophone for a laugh. Then mellow out with a shot of tequila.

Good Day,
CD
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:06:38 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
mix the polarity and touch his nose to the michrophone for a laugh. Then mellow out with a shot of tequila.

I don't understand what you said up there.

I agree he is clever and a good writer.

Whatever.

Love,

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 15:28:20 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
>I don't understand what you said up there.

Its a guitar player thing.

Love to you too Victoria
Cheers,
CD
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 00:43:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Careful what you wish for, CD
Message:
Actually CD,

It will probably please you to no end to know I did just that at our last gig before our vacation. Shocked myself four times before I realized it wasn't the alcohol.

Now look here, Chris. See how people respond to you when you loosen up a bit and communicate like a plain, ol' person and not some two-dimensional fruitcake? Everyone here's just hankerin' for a bit more of the real Chris Dickey. Cut out the bullshit and talk turkey, 'kay?
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 19:14:06 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
Sheep, you're a pussy, and a baby and a squealer, and a rat and an asshole. Any questions?

PS Patty says ''fuck you, sheep.'' Really.
She likes Jim.
And doesn't usually use the ''F word.''
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 11:55:34 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You need work on your appraoch
Message:
gerry,

You said:
'Sheep, you're a pussy, and a baby and a squealer, and a rat and an asshole. Any questions?'

SHP sez:
gerry, you're trying, I can see that...but you're no Jim Heller!

You again:
PS Patty says ''fuck you, sheep.'' Really. She likes Jim. And doesn't usually use the ''F word.''

SHP:
O - M Y- G A W D! PATTY said the f word???? O - M Y - G A W D!
She likes JIM? PATTY LIKES JIM??? O - M Y - G A W D !
And Patty doesn't usually use the f word??? O....MY....GAWD!
What are you doing after fifth period?

By the way, check out Jim's site up top where he has become the 'Oprah' of the site, suggesting books to his audience. I suggest you read at least a little of each one, because now his future posts will contain references you will be responsible to know if you want to be considered a literate, intellectual critical thinker, worthy of dialog.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:19:20 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: SHP
Subject: You need something
Message:
Pretty funny post, Sandy. I've already run out and bought those books and will be ready for the quiz. Read any good books lately? I'm reading Grisham's The Testament right now. I'll bet you're elbow deep into the Mahabarata or some other such exciting title.

Actually, we spent a fun weekend with Jim and Laurie at their place, so it's more than just from the forum that Patty knows Jim. I bet you'd be a real blast to hang out with, too, huh? Lookin' at the moon and having all those neat thoughts, er, I mean feelings and stuff.

I think it's amusing you want to get people kicked off the forum for lack of decorum. Hey, that rhymes, but no, you can't use it in one of your shitty poems because it's patent pending and I will sue.

Can you email me a photo of yourself for the sheep channel? And don't be a stranger. How 'bout some original satsang for the sheep forum? Something of our very own, not nicked from this place.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:40:45 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: websites
Message:
gerry,

The fact that you took the time to create a website spoofing me tells me that you have too much free time on your hands. If I had the time and the immaturity, I could come up with a 'Goat Channel'
and spoof you back. The remnants of my former immature self have already submitted some really good ideas to my conscious self for review, but I don't want to go there. Really, even you would have cracked a smile or two at some of the material...priceless. But with time and experience, I have learned that this sort of communication serves no positive purpose long term. Short terms laughs and pokes galore, but no real positive outcome.

I don't want anybody kicked off, just straightened out.

We'll proabaly never know each other in-person, and the animosity generated over our different experience with Maharaji will probably not go away. So I hope you Patty, Jim and whoever else you party with has a great life. No hard feelings. And don't tell me you don't peek over your required reading now and then and gaze at the moon yourself.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 13:58:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: websites
Message:
Hello again Mr.Pass-the-Gass,

Can anyone really have ''too much free time?'' That's a rhetorical question. You don't have to answer.

I forgot you are a ''fully mature ram'' and wouldn't stoop so low as to create a spoof website. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but the ''Sheep Channel'' is, alas, a mere recycling of the old ''Keith Channel'' which was created for another blabber mouth.

It did put you off your feed for a while, though, didn't it? Your absence here was gratefully noted by many, I'm sure. Alas, all good things must end, and up pops Sanford, ready to enlighten us all with his own version of the ''Superior Power in Person.'' (that rhymes too, and it is also patent pending so don't get any ideas.)

Yeah, I bet anything you created would be ''priceless.'' One merely needs to read your excellent verse to see that. You really ought to give the website a shot.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 14:52:41 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: websites
Message:
With the sort of trip you're obviously on, it's no wonder that Knowledge didn't take for you. Good luck finding something that fulfills you.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:24:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: tsk, tsk, baa, baa
Message:
With the sort of trip you're obviously on, it's no wonder that Knowledge didn't take for you. Good luck finding something that fulfills you.

Now shp, that's just what I mean by the superior power in person thingy. Could you please explain just what my ''trip is?'' How would you know? Really, I have no idea what you are talking about.

You mean the big K ''takes'' for some and not for others? Explain this por favor. (That's for Orlando) When I got duped, I was a very innocent 19 year old. Yep, never even laid yet. Uneducated, unworldy dopey little dreamer who believed a lot of the bullshit you suck up and regurgitate daily, as a ''fully mature Ram.''

And why do you make the assumption I'm not ''fulfilled?'' You shouldn't. No, you're just pullin' on your own dick here.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 00:38:01 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: SHP
Subject: Change your own diapers
Message:
It's the responsibility of the keepers of this site to deal with you

Sandy, you are without a doubt the biggest cry-baby to wander into this forum in a long time. You not only CHOOSE to go through life with a 'KICK ME' sign on your butt -- you want someone else to step in and protect you. You waver constantly between a willingness to 'discuss' Maharaji, and an eagerness to kiss his fraudulent ass.

I was surprised to see that CD finally put together a couple of coherent posts in this thread. But I dread having to wait another two full years before I ever get to read one from you...

Does Jim have to set the world on fire before he gets busted for flaming? Or does he have special privileges?

'Maybe', and 'Yes'. But (like the rest of us) he still has to put up with your stupidity, so he's not getting off scot-free.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 12:55:00 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: BWAH HA HA HA...
Message:
Brian: That was one of the funniest posts that I've read in a long time.... THANKS! :-)
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 16:39:25 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: For-um, no, For-you, yes.
Message:
You remind me of a referee I saw on the WWF the other night who was obviously siding with one of the (actor) wrestlers. He finally got nailed in that TV street-theatre with a folding chair
to the righteous glee of the crowd. (No, this is NOT a threat.)
It was all staged of course to vicariously release the pain and suffering of the working-class fans. It worked for them. So probably some of your mal/discontents (no, I don't think everyone here is a mal/discontent) got a kick out of the diaper thing and the cry-baby thing, so I guess you're keeping your audience happy.

It's your site, bro. Go for it, double-standard (life of) Brian.
L.O.B. = Life Of Brian = LOB those nasties at the bad guy of the moment and damn the torpedoes!
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 17:29:26 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Shp for Forum, No.
Message:
Ok Shp, there it is. This guy does the work that actually keeps the site going. It's not an abstract issue of ownership, it's a human issue of appreciation, appropriateness, netiquette and value. Can't you cut him any slack for providing this service to you which you claim is so important?
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Date: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 03:08:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: to SHP and all
Message:
dear Sandy -
Your post made me really angry. I think there are some things that you don't understand about the site and forum, and about Brian's (and my) role in them. First, both of us do this on a purely volunteer basis in an effort to help people. Neither of us gets paid, although the server time, which YOU are using, is paid for by donations from a lot of the ex-premies on this site. Furthermore, all the time that Brian and I spend on the forum is donated - taken away from other things in our lives - work, family, and relationships. There are also a lot of other things that YOU don't see here: e-mails, long-distance phone calls, and letters of support to people who REALLY need it. We are happy to do this, but it makes me angry when I see you criticizing Brian, who has given SO MUCH of himself to take on the responsibility of the ex-premie site and forum.

I explained our position regarding the forum in a post to Mel Bourne (which has since gone inactive, but which I will quote). Mel wrote a very nice response to both me and Brian (thanks, Mel), which you can read in the inactive index. I hope you can understand and appreciate our position too.

But one thing which I hope you and everyone will understand and accept is that the forum was set up in the first place to create a place where ex-premies could communicate with each other. In keeping with this, our first priority in making decisions concerning the forum is protecting the integrity of the forum itself (thus the rules about violent threats and using other people's names). Our second priority is to protect the forum for use by ex-premies. Our third priority is to protect the forum for use by premies and other interested parties. This IS a double standard, but we believe that it's justified by the purpose of the forum.

Sandy, as you know, I have stuck up for you at times. I also don't like the 'Sheep Channel' (sorry, Gerry, but I don't!), and I want to point out that it is NOT associated with the ex-premie forum or site in any way. But when you start criticizing Brian (and me) for the content of posts on the forum, then I feel that you've gone too far.

You may feel good about accepting Maharaji as your teacher - that's fine, and I won't try and argue you out of it. But the facts are that there are a lot of people who DO NOT feel good about that - who, in fact, are miserable. The ex-premie site and forum has helped these people a lot. It is a positive force for growth in people's lives. I know that because of what is posted here, and because of private communications from people who have been helped by the forum and site.

I think YOU should think about your purpose for being here. I used to think that you had an honest and sincere purpose for expressing your own questions and doubts and opinions. Now I'm not so sure (but I still have hope). Anyway, I hope that what I've said means something to you.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:30:08 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Laws of physics
Message:
SHP: It's not referred to as the law(s) of the universe. The moon is 'suspended' in space, it's held in place by a very concrete 'thing' or 'force' (if you will). Anyway THERE, I hope that made you happy (some criticism)... :-)

SHP, who says that faith isn't subject to critical thought. I can have faith that a stone statue out on a pacific island is actually god, but my faith doesn't make it so. Critical thought should never be shunned just because you don't want to challenge your own, personal faith. People in the not-so-old days had ABSOLUTE faith in the fact that the earth was flat. All the faith in the world didn't make it so. Critical thought challenged the notion and eventually broke down the belief that the earth was flat. There are too many examples of 'faith without critical thought' and most, if not all, examples have proven a disaster, in one form or another.

Food for THOUGHT.... don't feel it, think about it.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 16:56:59 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Reply to Mike
Message:
Mike,

It's almost always a pleasure to communicate with you.
By having faith I reject neither critical thinking nor logic.
Ya need the right tool for the right job, as Mr. Natural sez.

I'm just saying that I remember when I was in school when they discovered something about the atom, they collected all of our textbooks and gave out some new printouts with the new discovery.
But if I had had that new idea about the atom before it went public, and had put it on a test, I would have failed the test.
Now all of a sudden, big brother sez now THIS is the truth.

Like doctors who say that the disease is 'terminal or chronic'
to someone instead of saying that 'we just don't know the answer yet'.

Human beings are very arrogant about what they think they know from their intellectual perches, which are constantly changing like a bird on a windy day looking for a stable branch upon which to sing their song.

The weather is changing and I get these terrific headaches when the barometer shifts ever since an auto accident in '89. See ya later. Have a good weekend.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:46:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Reply to Sheep
Message:
You are so confused I can't believe it. You don't know what you're talking about and absolutely amaze me time and again. You might find it enjoyable talking with Mike but I'd doubt he'd say the same about you. Is it fun to play tennis with someone who can't hit the ball back over the net? Only if you're young, she's beautiful and you're trying to get laid. Otherwise, forget it.

Shhep, you're not young, you're probably not Mike's type and I understand he doesn't fool around. I can't speak for him, I know. I'm just kind of prjecting a bit. 'ya mind?
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 12:55:20 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim's patrolling the threads
Message:
...cruising around, just looking for somewhere to drop a load of crap that smells like no one else's, marking his territory of this whole site as his domain, indirectly and condesecendingly advising his 'peers' (but he really thinks he's better, smarter, etc) on how to deal with me or whoever else happens to meet with his displeasure.

Question is, what does this have to do with Maharaji or not Maharaji? I wouldn't care for Jim's tactics even if I was an ex-premie because he violates the basics of civil engagement
in communication. He is a detriment to your cause, just as vicious so-called 'premies' are a detriment to Maharaji's.
Food for thought.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:09:40 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Jim's patrolling the threads
Message:
Jim doesn't need defending but can I just say that as someone who has never met him, but has read a lot of Jim's postings, I find them all reasonable, intelligent, and the occasional outburst totally justified because of the inability of premies to debate intelligently.

John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 21:57:09 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Jim's patrolling the threads
Message:
You know what they say about opinions, everyone has one, and that's yours.

I have been making one big mistake over and over again by coming here, and that is believing there is common ground for premies and ex-premies to meet and dialog on without conflict. Now I am seeing that our only common ground is that we are all human beings and that's about it.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:01:41 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Victoria's reading threads
Message:
Hi,

I think our common ground is that we've all surrendered the reins to our lives to Guru Maraji.

Our difference is that some of us have reclaimed our hearts and minds and families and money and everything else. Others are still hoping to kiss his feet. I believe that, if there is a God, he/she/it gave us minds and bodies and desires and joys and anger and free will and we've got it all. It just doesn't make sense that it would all be about ... nothing ... self-denial, self deprecation ...

Humbling oneself is actually quite uplifting, but there comes a point when the object of one's desires must come forth with ... something ... anything. To me, Maharaj Ji the man was embarrassing and really empty when it came to filling my cup and answering my questions.

When I left DLM, slowly I became ... it felt kind of scary, but it was like parts of myself that had been shut off were invited back in...just re-reading this, it sounds kind of schizo ... but that's what it was like for me...the various selves or dimensions of self returning for nurturing after many months of neglect. I followed him (lower case h on purpose) for just about 2 years, I can't imagine how difficult it must be for those who continued that path for decades.

You know, I'm not a bad person and those aspects of myself which were neglected for the sake of worshipping the guru are not bad parts. The bad part was letting go of myself. The bad part was wasting all that energy and idealistic, youthful, open-minded, open heart on a total scam. Think what I could have accomplished! Instead I enriched a scam artist, I worshipped a false idol, I devoted myself heart and soul to a lie.

The thing is, I had practice humbling myself and so was able to return as the Prodigal. On the other hand, I knew what I knew to be true, and so I know in my heart that I am blameless and without guile.

I could not leave it all at once, it was in stages...maybe not HIM, but the rest is right...maybe not the premies, but what's inside is right...maybe not SS&M and darshan, but look at this Buddhism and the 4 things (?) right action, right thoughts, right employment, right speech -- 4 precepts??? I forget. Anyway, I once had lots of time to ponder these metaphysical concepts...and they are Concepts...nothing wrong about that.

Now I just go to work, take care of my kids and my marriage, my ailing parents. Day to day, day by day, dealing with what's right in front of me and this is so much more fulfilling than listening/watching m's satsang or anyone else's.

Sorry to have rambled, but was just feeling reflective/reflexive.

Sincerely,

Victoria
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:11:30 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Victoria's reading threads
Message:
Victoria,

I read your post and empathized with alot of what you said. The only difference is that I don't think he's a scam. I surrendered the reins of my life to love, not to the man or his organization(s).
That is how my heart read it, and that's what I did.

May your kids grow healthy and strong in your love, your spousal trip be truly wedded bliss and your ailing parents be well or at least not be in any pain.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful words kindly expressed even though we don't agree.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:20:44 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: reading threads
Message:
Yes dear.

And thankyou for such a prompt response, I feel like we are in real time.

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:45:24 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Victoria's reading threads
Message:
'Think what I could have accomplished! Instead I enriched a scam artist, I worshipped a false idol, I devoted myself heart and soul to a lie. '

I did that for 23 years and I'm learning to forgive myself for the lost years.

Thanks for your posts.

Jethro
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 10:36:28 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Jethro
Message:
Dear Jethro,

Thanks for your post. I was hoping someone would respond to the outpouring of my examined self. I considered carefully what I wrote and I was trying to connect with someone. SHP's response just left me with that 'yes, dear' kind of feeling I get when my husband and I disagree about something and it's clear we will never come to 'common ground.'

I don't understand how he can 'empathize' with me. Empathy (as opposed to sympathy) means you've been there...yet he still worships that Fake (capital F on purpose).

I guess I made the mistake of believing that guru was greater than god and that being a devotee of the living lord was the purpose of my life. Instead I should have surrendered to Love. Oops. I didn't understand M's message, I guess.

Or maybe SHP is the one who didn't understand. Surrendered to love when the guy said, Surrender the reins of your life to ME and I will give you peace.

I'm writing this to you instead of to SHP because I feel that we can actually Communicate.

I appreciate your posts also, and I am very sorry you wasted so many precious years on a fraud. It's not your fault. There are many things you have learned, I'm sure, it's not too late for real life. True bliss along with all the depths and breadths of feelings and honest experiences are out there now that we are free.

Love,

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 13:30:38 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: To Victoria
Message:
Dear Victoria
'I don't understand how he can 'empathize' with me. Empathy (as opposed to sympathy) means you've been there...yet he still worships that Fake (capital F on purpose). '

Well you're right. He can't empathise with you. That is the premie image of how a truly spiritual person should be. He may even believe what he says, but doesn't really think about it very much. Also he chooses to follow a paedophile-protector and I can't forget that about premies. I find it hard to be civil with them( hint to any premie reading this…..don't respond)

'I guess I made the mistake of believing that guru was greater than god and that being a devotee of the living lord was the purpose of my life. Instead I should have surrendered to Love. Oops. I didn't understand M's message, I guess. '

Yup I made the same mistake. Nothing was more important that m's words(agya) EVEN if my own heart/love was saying something different. I remember that pain of believing I was not surrendered enough. That is abuse at the deepest level. I cannot believe that shp/premies are surrendering to their own love, if they were they would not be in the world of 'those that have K' an the 'have-nots' and they would know that 'that love' IS unconditional and is not owned by anyone.
They cannot speak because they live a lie and that lie destroys life.

'I appreciate your posts also, and I am very sorry you wasted so many precious years on a fraud. It's not your fault. There are many things you have learned, I'm sure, it's not too late for real life. '

Actually I am having an incredibly 'enlightening' time coming back to my own self again.

'True bliss along with all the depths and breadths of feelings and honest experiences are out there now that we are free. '

I think I'll frame that :>)

Much love from Jethro
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 14:35:13 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: To Victoria
Message:
Enjoying your posts, I agree with you that the mistake we made was in thinking surrendering to guru was surrendering to love or that guru was God. Even though I don't write here much these days due to time pressures I just wanted you to know I'm enjoying yours.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 12:17:54 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Now, who's doin' it?
Message:
shp: Nowhere in Jim's post did he use obscenity (unless I'm blind) nor did he use any unwarranted insults, etc. Why are you gettin' on his case? Are you, perhaps, falling into the same trap which you accuse him of being in (e.g. assuming that his post is going to be nasty or whatever)?
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 11:33:17 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Reply to Mike
Message:
shp: You said, 'But if I had had that new idea about the atom before it went public, and had put it on a test, I would have failed the test.'

You would????? I think not. What makes you say this? Do you have so little self-esteem? If you had developed the theories using same methodologies as the people that discovered these things, then you would be the nobel proze winner. They NEVER did it by 'blind faith,' EVER!

You said, 'Like doctors who say that the disease is 'terminal or chronic' to someone instead of saying that 'we just don't know the answer yet'.

SHP, diseases are often terminal or chronic until a cure is found! What, would you have them answer 'we just don't know' when you are asking if the disease that you have is fatal? I don't know about you, but I would want to know this..... kinda important to me. Was polio fatal and/or chronic until a cure was found? Shake your head up and down, shp. When a doctor was asked, 'can this kill my kid?' Would you have the doctor say, 'I don't know?' I'm not sure where you are coming from with this one, shp, but it doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:32:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Faith and critical thinking
Message:
Faith is not logical, nor is it subject to worldly critical thinking.

Well, let's give it a go just the same. What is faith? What is it based on? Is it based on empirical evidence? No. It's based on faulty logic that says, 'there's just gotta be somebody or something who started this whole gig, there's just GOTTA be! How else could all this be?'

Also, as humans, we're the only creatures in this world who know that we've got to die someday. The prospect of death is constantly with us. It eases our troubled minds, given that fact, to believe that there's a loving God who's there to bring us back home to a perfect place after our time is done here on earth.

So there, I've just applied some critical thinking to what faith is. I could go on but I just wanted to show you that it could be done. What is it about critical thinking that you find so lacking? I think you're just afraid of it, what it might lead you to realize about your faith. Either that, or you just don't have the ability to think critically so you downplay it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:47:11 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You hit it right on the head
Message:
Jerry: The main difference that I see (psychologically speaking) between 'people of faith' and athiests is this: Athiests aren't AFRAID to be alone (in terms of a god-like being), people of faith are. Athiests aren't nearly as afraid of death, people of faith are. Athiests aren't afraid to exlore the idea that THIS is all there is, nothing more.....THAT idea scares people of faith the most. Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, but those are some pretty major differences.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:48:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: It's 'atheist', Mike (nt)
Message:
nmnm
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:56:30 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: oooops!
Message:
I never said I was perfect, unlike someone we BOTH know! :-)
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 11:52:39 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: oooops!
Message:
I never said I was perfect, unlike someone we BOTH know! :-)

Well, at least you're an athiest.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:06:53 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Pulling it out with pliers
Message:
I disagree with your generalisation here. I believe in critical thinking and after much of this I still have come to the conclusion that there may be a God.

I have explored atheism and have not been afraid to suppose the possibility that this is all there is etc. I think atheists are just as afraid of death as anyone. The time when I was most sure I was dying (during a heart attack) I was not thinking about God or anything like that but had a natural instinct to hang on to life. This would be true of anyone regardless of their beliefs.

Critical thinking means you have to explore fully both atheism and the possibility of a God. If you don't explore both these scenarios then the thinking could be said to be biased towards one or the other. How many atheists can say that they truly have explored the possibilty and evidence for a God?

Similarly, how many believers in God have truly explored the possibility that there is no God? Exploring one avenue without the other is accepting one just on blind faith alone. As in any conclusion, the evidence from both camps has to be weighed carefully. I would not believe that there was a God simply because it felt cool to do so. I have to see that there is something to go on which is more than just blind faith or belief.

Are atheist just following a blind atheistic faith? Or are they exploring both avenues? I respect anyone's beliefs, atheist or otherwise but am always cautious in case the person has not looked at both possibilities and is coming from a merely dogmatic point of view.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:29:12 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Evidence?
Message:
How many atheists can say that they truly have explored the possibilty and evidence for a God?

David,

I don't think an atheist can become one any other way. I was not raised to be an atheist, but a believer. Only through my own inquiries have I become an atheist. I think this is probably true in most cases.

Similarly, how many believers in God have truly explored the possibility that there is no God?

Many of them would probably become atheists.

I would not believe that there was a God simply because it felt cool to do so. I have to see that there is something to go on which is more than just blind faith or belief.

And what might that be? What miniscule amount of evidence, that can't be blown away, exists to prove the existence of God?

Are atheist just following a blind atheistic faith?

I can only speak for myself, here. I can find no evidence that God exists so I choose not to believe in him.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 20:43:08 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Evidence?
Message:
At least there's one thing that's certain - Maharaji did not show God to anyone, otherwise there would not be any atheists amongst his ex-devotees. If there was ever evidence that Maharaji's claims were false, this is it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:57:33 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: pulling your what with pliers
Message:
Having some premie come on the forum and try to preach to us is the worst case for God someone could make. Here we are dealing with our own stupidity in having followed a ripoff that called
itself a religion (or similar).

We do not need and are not in the mood for preaching. What conversations we might have amongst ourselves (which might be something to the tune of 'Can there be spirituality after the BM?') are completely subverted by the double-dealing agenda of premie apologist upchuck with Miragey chunks right in the middle of it. Mmmm, tastey vomit, really gets my spiritual saliva flowing!

It's insulting and manipulative, whether the person is able to understand that or not.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 20:33:14 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: pulling your what with pliers
Message:
Actually, I haven't read the posts by the premie in this thread. I rarely read premie posts.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 02:34:58 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: You hit it right on the head
Message:
Why don't you join the consiousness thread jerry put up top?
As soon as it gets more underway.

vulnerability to having your heart broken and having an
identity based on something and our tendency to screw up
(according to our own and others definitions) are also
some of the reasons people end up joining religions.
It's a good subject.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 22:11:33 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: SHP
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
Tom just stood there and said a few words (he was a quiet guy) about how amazing it was that the moon, weighing billions of tons, was just suspended there in space like a bubble in a lava lamp...

Hi SHP,

Lumps of stuff orbit bigger lumps of stuff when centifugal force is tempered by gravity - or vice versa. End of story.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 15:00:28 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
That's easy for you to say.
Care to explain the origins of these laws you quote so glibly?
No, nobody can.
But we lean on empirical knowledge until it bends under the weight of newer empirical knowledge. Then we lean on that, etc.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 07:20:50 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: SHP
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
Care to explain the origins of these laws you quote so glibly?
No, nobody can.


You don't need to be able to explain the origins of natural laws to see them at work or confirm their existence. Nor should you hypothesise a Creator or sense of purpose to everything unless the evidence makes it unavoidable. Then you would have to try and explain the origins of the Creator. (Would you care to explain the origins of the Creator you make so many glib references to?)

Sub-atomic particles might behave strangely, but from molecular level upwards, everything behaves with an irrefutable certainty. It would be far more remarkable - miraculous, even - if the moon did not appear to hang there suspended in space.

I'm no expert in physics so I avoid speculating on the origins of the universe. I'm much more interested in the life sciences, and the nature of mind and consciousness. As far as the origins of life are concerned, no-one has come remotely close to proposing a better theory than Darwin's. Natural selection makes both 'purpose' and 'design' redundant.

Or do you prefer the Vedic creation myths, perhaps? I guess they
have the New Age stamp of authenticity that is generally accorded to all forms of 'ancient wisdom'.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 13:09:24 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
Nigel: Good to see you posting again. I like your 'clumps of stuff'...... got a good laugh. May I use it the next time I do a lecture? Good question about the creator, too.... I liked it! :-)

To shp: The 'origin' of those 'laws' (I prefer 'behaviors') was the same as the origin of the matter they define. Big bang, anyone?
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 17:23:44 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
Arno Penzias who was one of the proponenets of the big bang theory lives in the area and works at Bell Labs (or did). He's just another guy with an idea that happened to catch on and filled a vaccuum until another catchier idea floats by. Does that make it true for you? Not for me. I am more interested in the origins of my income so I can take care of my 'flock' (sheep come in flocks, ya know), and get along day by day in this world. For me, that's cosmic too, taking care of my little area of the universe that I inhabit. If everybody just did that, it would be better.
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 18:02:37 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: Amazing yes, miraculous, no...
Message:
shp: Sorry, but you are 'avoiding' the conversation/subject.

BTW, the Bell Labs guys weren't 'proponents' of the big bang theory. They ACCIDENTLY discovered the left-over background radiation (called noise temperature by radio guys) from the big bang while trying to figure out why there was so much 'noise' in their satellite downlink receivers. They got the nobel prize for the discovery, but they didn't even understand what they were looking at. It was another team (from Princeton, if my mind serves) that KNEW what it was. The Princeton team was actually setting up equipment to INTENTIONALLY detect the background radiation when the Bell guys called to have them come over to help determine where all the 'noise' was coming from. Needless to say, from a discovery point of view, the Princeton team had been scooped. I can go into alot more detail on this event if you like, but I don't think it's necessary.

No, the big bang theory wasn't an accident. It was/is a well thought out explanation for the beginnings of the universe and there is plenty of evidence that points in the direction they were going. It isn't an idea that just 'happened,' and it isn't an idea that someone just 'threw out there' to see if anyone would believe it. Come on, shp, you're grasping at straws.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:48:18 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
'If Maharaji's not the Lord of the Universe, why does it feel so good every time I click the light on Maharaji.com?'
Because you know that THIS site forced him to create THAT site. It is called an achievement.

' Why do premies claim to be happier than they've ever been and dripping in rich, divine gooey love? '

They are trained to say that, just as Jehovas Ws are(but premies are usually weaker)

'Why does Maharaji keep telling the premies how much he loves them? '

He only tells them that after he thinks he has gone to far in insulting them and is worried about cash flow.

'Why do premies keep saying their hearts are overflowing in gratitude?'
They only started that afte he used words like 'overflowing' and 'gratitude' for a few months. The lemming affect(Ref: Life of Brian)

'If Maharaji's not the Master of the Heart, why do premies keep saying he is? '
see above

'And what about their experience which, after all, aligns more or less perfectly with the universal principles elucidated in Jonathan Livingstone Seagull? How's that all happen if he's a fake?'

It's true premies do keep on flying into brick walls. Anyway who want to be a seagull.

'And what about that postcard Shri Hans sent, eh? Am I the only one who wakes up in the middle of the night sometimes, realizing there's some evidence I've never really been able to account for? '
DOn't know anything about a post card. Please explain?

'Sorry, it's just sometimes I have to wonder. What if... '

If m and or his father is god then then we're all fucked. premie or not.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:51:50 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ALL ex's
Subject: EXs please read
Message:
It took me 3 gos to get the above post up.........do you think there is something in Jim's post.....I'm really getting shaky....maybe I've blown it for all time....you know just like M said to Bob Mishler after HE did the ceremony that if they ever divirced there wouldn't be a corner of the universe he(Bob) could hide in.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:38:57 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: EXs please read
Message:
Was that a serious post Jethro--are you really feeling shaky or was that a joke?
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 08:57:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: EXs please read
Message:
It comes over as a joke to me, but then I'm also British. The idea of M stretching his omnipotence into Jethro's computer to make it difficult for him to post is an amusing one.

But then I can't speak for Jethro, so maybe he does believe that M is in his computer:-)

John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:46:55 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen please read
Message:
Helen, It was a joke but reflects some of my former premie thinking. :>)

Love from
Jethro
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 22:06:23 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro please read
Message:
That's a relief. Just checking JUST in case.
Love
Helen
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:34:50 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen please read
Message:
'That's a relief. Just checking JUST in case.'

I often forget how cyberspace cannot always convey humour or mood. Whatever else I am I have a British sense of humour(as Sir Dave correctly interpreted) and other nationalities often don't get it.....especially those from America :>)

Anyway many thanks for your concern for me as an individual human being, a quality that followers of prem have given up in the name of devotion.

Love from Jethro
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Date: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 14:42:01 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro please read
Message:
I will keep your British humor in mind next time . My husband has a very teasing dry sense of humor and jokes with everyone from clerks to strangers on the street. ALso he looks like Martin Mull. In childbirth class we women were instructed to get down on all fours to practice a comfortable chldbirth position. The husbands were instructed to get down on all fours with us and Gary said 'WHere are the whips and chains, I need discipline.' I was very embarrassed, being the more reserved type (well everyone is more reserved than Gary) but of course everyone thought it was funny, it's all in his delivery so he gets away with it.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:52:18 (EST)
From: WARREN BOOTY
Email: None
To: dud'
Subject: Ex-premie Boubts
Message:
one thing he not she taught me, was that wondering about the 'real'
might sew a character which leads to 'real' eye zingggg. that she indeed is / was / will be a 'babe', and it is none of your business
who / what / she is... she could be mother terissa, dead.... or the biggest ho ever to visit da hood, not the slums of harlem...
a falafeel is a falaf.. well you no...
remember to vote for / help bill bradley, for he is rightious
amongst 'politiciannnnssssss' and SAINT MICHAIL the 'guy' should have pursues a musicSTAR, not movie, career.... understand,
or is dat to brilliant fo you ex nice guys. uncomplain, and realize 'we got the bomb' peace.....
p.s. i inhale.... thank you, mktg. researce tour...
all rights ' justice' saved..
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 06:51:40 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Doubts
Message:
jim
The doubts-- I feel that the inner life is important - without it we are stuck in a materialistic existance. The techniquies give us a way to get in there.ONE way to do it.

For me the question is if there is corruption on M side.
Meditation Masters do screw up. There was a thread a month or so ago where someone, I forget his name posted a blurb about the significance of the inner perceptions-- but the development of these perceptions are the question. A master can get corrupted by the MAYA just like we can, they are not above it

I think you are right if you have doubts abpit cancelling out the inner life. There are people who have experienced near death and they wittness light and word ect.

Seems to me the question is does M have the monopoly and if he does is it a healthy one.

You mention the love of premeis for M. I never get a feeling of love from them to M. It is more like a spiritual/sentimental adulation. It does not resonate in me as love at all. Enrapture, co dependance, compulsion but nothing like love. It feels manufactured and boxed in by the rhetoric.

Somehow M has these premies fixed on him so that they do not develope emotionally. There lies the corruption.

If he has himself as an intregal part of the loop- then the person is never free to just experience knowledge with no strings attatched. Shouldnt it be enough to gain knowledge of our inner world and develope ourselves and our relationships- therby helpng the whole situation? Why does he say it is free on one hand and gets us in a headlock with the other? God forbid one hould want to practice knowledge and be a Christian Gnostic- that cannot happen with his lardship virtually saying me me me me.
I think he is too hung up on this Indian guru trip to see what he is doing and how it just dont go down to the western individual-

Sometimes the forum lumps the Lord of the universe claim in with the technique source in with the money issue in with the toilet issue.

They are not all one ball of crud to me .

I separate them out into categorys and some are relevant and some are not.
Some I have doubts, nay curses for- but some aspects , such as the inner life, I have lived through enough to know they are important and also know that they are not M 's exclusive realm. AND that he has corrupted them because of his HINDIness.

A bit rambly, but my thought tonight on ex premie doubts
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:27:25 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Doubts
Message:
Forget all that. Let's be practical.

Would you attend one of the Lord's controlled video events? The creepy ones where no one talks or acknowledges each other. No it's just too wierd. Say goodbye to Satsang.

Would you bring a friend to one of these events? No, too wierd. Say Goodbye to service.

Would you spend $6-800 bucks to sit and listening to him speak for an hour when you could just go watch it at the video? NO there are too many fruity premies around and the crazy M culture would drive you mad. Say goodbye to darshan.

Now you can meditate and as far as getting kicked to the corners of the universe I believe even M has to bow down before this knowledge. So your covered and you can say whatever you want on the forum.

As far as the propoganda on the other page. Don't forget the shadow. Premies have to make lots of effort and still that shadow follows them. It can kill them! The forces amass against the premie so they must pick up their sword and fight. (At least I imagined them; Haven't seen hide nor hair since I left.)

While he sips martini's at the palace. Refuses to answer desperate letters. Trap doors premies out of the ashram and other service and sets up divisions in their close relationships, guilt trips them into giving money. After a few years of that the rational fellow is going to stop fighting the shadow and turn the sword towards the master to cover his backside.

Don't worry! If MJ is the lord of the time he's probably got a quota of some sort to fill so by writing on the X page your probably saving your seat.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:31:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Hey, I was just kidding!
Message:
God, you guys!

How about this one. Imagine someone who left Maharaji for none other than Satpal, his older brother who, as we all know, also claims to be the Lord. What if that person left him too, drifited on to some ofther faith or guru. What if they kept on going, maybe got into Guru Mayi at one point. Maybe even left her for her brother (a virtually identical internecine guru fight). Imagine how funny it'd be for that person to start doubting his or her doubts. Who could they go back to? I guess people like that, people who kept on sampling all these guru types, faiths and what not, after k, have no choice but to end up saying, like some we've seen here, that there's some truth in all of them. Otherwise, well I don't know what would happen.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:07:45 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Doubts Zac
Message:
I agree.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 02:43:48 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Doubts
Message:
good points cp,
I wonder if you mean to mention 'master' like you did.
I don't think I have run across anyone that fits the
'master' status that could not be debunked.
Any in your memory that you can mention? If some have
given you that impression, we could take a look at that
subject with you.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 13:51:37 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
If Maharaji's not the Lord of the Universe, why does it feel so good every time I click the light on Maharaji.com?

I assume this is ironic cynicism. If not, you feel good because it's a schlocky, cold, website and a transparent attempt to couteract this site. That makes me feel good too -- good that I'm NOT one of his devotees.

Why does Maharaji keep telling the premies how much he loves them?

I haven't heard all his 'speeches' (thank god) but I don't think he ever really says this, does he? I think he says Maharaji and knowledge allow you to experience 'that love,' but I never heard Maharaji get that personal when it comes to the premies. I think he might be embarrassed to say that, and besides it flatly isn't true.

Why do premies keep saying their hearts are overflowing in gratitude?

Well, again, premies usually don't say their hearts are overflowing in gratitude. In reality, they know they rarely are. Since this is all a religious belief system, they believe they SHOULD be overflowing with gratitude, and they also believe that it feels wonderful when that happens. Just like we used to say, really PRAY to experience DEVOTION. It's more an ideal, mythicalo state, not a reality most of the time, until the emotional HIGH comes at programs or on other rare occasions when a premie feels really good, and then just attributes the feeling good as comeing from Maharaji, and labels it 'gratitude.' It's pretty easy, really.

If Maharaji's not the Master of the Heart, why do premies keep saying he is?

What did Hitler say -- if you repeat something often enough people believe it as fact? We used to sit in satsang and hear things repeated over and over and over. Now premies watch videos and hear it over and over and over, and 'Master of the Heart' is one of the things they hear.

Am I the only one who wakes up in the middle of the night sometimes, realizing there's some evidence I've never really been able to account for?

Yes, I think you are. Shri Hans played the same charlatan game that M does, in fact M learned it form him.

And besides, Maharaji's a successful investor and I, unfortunately, am not.

This attribute is self-described, so I wouldn't take it seriously. M was never any good at handling money, and never understood the value of it. If he has made some successful investments of the money that poverty-stricken premies have given him over the years, I'm sure he stumbled into them.

Do I have a bunch of people willing to pay real money for collections of my terrible poetry?

This is very unfair, Jim. I for one have never even seen your terrible poetry. How do you know there wouldn't be a big demand for it? Jim, really, it's all about marketing. Just get them bound, put a new-age cover on it (like a swan wearing a space suit), price it at $14.95, and, who knows?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:25:47 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
In the 70's, someone would always shout out 'I love you, maharaji' during his satsangs. And maharaji would say, 'I love you, too' and get a shy coy look on his face. It always pissed me off, because I'd wished he told them to shut up.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:00:24 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ex-premie doubts
Message:
I don't know, maybe if you could get someone to kiss your feet (have you ever had your feet kissed?) and if they got blissed out, then maybe it is YOU and not him, or YOU and HIM too? or something...I think the feet kissing is really key here...there is no experience so totally concept-blowing...

on the other hand, just because you have an experience kissing feet, does that mean that he is god? God?

I think that there are lots of people in India and elsewhere who create a 'fanbelt satsang' atmosphere, but that doesn't mean they are the Superior Power in Person.

You know?
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:50:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: I had my feet kissed
Message:
As an experiment I got my girlfriend to kiss my feet. She says nothing happened. Later on, while watching the TEEvee, I managed to kiss my own foot and nothing happened to me either. I did get a good night's sleep that night though. So, who knows?
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 23:54:34 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I had my feet kissed
Message:
Well, did you have your socks on or off? Did you sit on a throne at the time, or were you rushed through a crowd while they lined up with pursed lips? Or with purses?

If it was just you and your girlfriend, I think you should try biting gently and see where that gets you.

;)

Victoria
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:08:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: She does bite gently
Message:
But that's a different experiment. No, for the feet we did it right, I think. I bought some expensive, thin silk socks (white) and we draped the room in blue chiffon. No throne but we did get a nice chair and put a white sheet over it for a touch more purity. Turned off the phone and got a few friends to stand at the door doing security. Couldn't find any of those new premie albums so we put on some Yani. Laurie came in quicky and quiet and one friend, Brad, made a point of rushing her along. She bowed, kissed and moved on right out the door into the living room.

Like I say, nothing happened so, this being a particularly shor darshan line we thought we'd try it again. This time I gave her twenty bucks to put in an envelope and drop off in Brad's hands as she approached. Again she came in, dropped off the money, bowed, kissed and split. She didn't feel anything that time either but I got a bit of a charge imaginging that i was earnign twenty bucks. It made me smile and, on an impulse, I blew in her ear at at that perfect moment. I'd forgotten that she'd never been a premie and so was a bit taken aback when she got up and said 'what the fuck you do that for?'

'Laurie, honey, that's Holy Breath. You know.'

'Yeah, right. You're just trying to make fun of me, aren't you Jim? You can be such an asshole sometimes.'

(I think she got that from reading the page. She never used to call me that. Anyway, I don't let her come here anymore. Would you?)

'Laurie, that's what Maharaji used to do all the time. You're only supposed to get it once and I thought maybe, seeing as you never got Holy Breath..'

'Bullshit, Jim! You're just trying to make fun of me. Look, you can take this whole stupid fucking experiment of yours and shove it up your ass. I'm sick and tired of all your guru shit. Why don't you go back to him and get it over with. I mean, this is sick, all this stuff. And besides, who said you could put my good pillow no the floor like that? Get your feet off it!'

So, really, in the circumstances, it's strange I got any sleep at all that night. Maybe it was cause I kissed my feet. Hey I've heard of guys who could do stranger stuff than that!
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:18:40 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: too funny! nt
Message:
=) HAHAHAHAHA
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:46:07 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: She does bite gently
Message:
Er, Jim honey, we don't really need to know the little kinky games you and Laurie play, okay?

Next week it's Nurse Ratchett and the prison warden.

JUST KIDDING--actually it was hilarious
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:08:50 (EST)
From: Alonzo Front
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: premies.org
Message:
I went on a site called premies.org where password are granted to premies. The webmaster asks requesters for a few words about experience of Knowledge. I was refused. I’m worried something that first pretended to be « spriritual » is getting more like a religion closed to everyone who don’t strictly conform to some fuzzy dogma. Has anyone have experience with these folks. Here is a recollection of our emails. To this day, there is no answer. I wonder what Maharaji thinks of such a rigid attitude.

Alonzo Front (original request)
My_experience: I received Knowledge in Montréal Canada on december 16th 1972.

Premies.org
Hi …,
We are happy to see you. Please tell us something about your current
experience of Knowledge and Guru Maharaji.
Thanks-Ray

Alonzo Front
I came to a point where I don't feel like talking about it no more. Not if I need to sound like any other run-of-the-mill devotee at least. I understand you would like to verify wether or not folks whom passwords are granted to were initiated. Don't be fooled. There is enough premie-talk on the web, if anyone half-witted wanted to fool you into beleiving he's a premie, he could easily fool you. The point is I don't need to fool anyone. I was initiated in 1972 and lived in ashrams for years. I'm a prime-quality premie.

Think twice. If you want to grant passwords to folks who 'belong' to a certain specific mindscape, you are in contradiction. Isn't it exactly the opposite of what this experience is all about?

My telling you about my spiritual experience would have you be fooled into thinking I am 'confused' because spiritual experiences never meet expectation. This is one of the many contradictions to come with spirituality. It don't really fit what you'd expect from a blissed-out devotee. What am I to do? Be sincere and rejected or mimic premie-talk and be accepted? I chose sincerity.

Spirituality is something impossible to talk about. On that point, I agree with Jews, Buddhists, Taoists and Maharaj ji. From the moment one talks about it, it ceases being spirituality and becomes something else. It may be religion, belonging to a group, philosophy, dogma or what-not. I seldom talk about spirituality, specially not with a stranger. The thing is very intimate.

I know premies babble all the time about what they pretend is spirituality. I'm uneasy with that. At this point, if you want to reject my request for a password because I don't fit your idea of spirituality, you're proving my point. I plan on fully filling my own shoes until I kick the bucket. That means I need to distance myself from foreign ways of being.

Premies.org
Hello again
Yes I am convinced that you have received Knowledge.

I don't understand why you would want to see pictures of Maharaji since you seem to want to distance yourself from Him and the other premies?

I am still wondering if you are experiencing Knowledge now? Have you 'realized' the Knowledge and now you don't need Maharaji? You have not mentioned anything about your experience, and I would love to hear about what must be an intense personal experience. I am curious.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not teasing you. I have a genuine interest in sharing this site with people who love Maharaji and the Knowledge. If you are indeed that person, let's hear you say it. Is that so hard?

I am not accusing you of anything, but we get a lot of letters form people who are now actually ex-premies. They received Knowledge and don't have anything to do with Maharaji anymore. They have abandoned practicing Knowledge every day in their lives. Many of these letters are similar to yours.. inasmuch as they outline the experience of receiving Knowledge with no need for Maharaji, Knowledge or other premies in their lives now.

Certainly doesn't matter to me if you are just an odd man out. I am a bit odd myself. Not the ordinary premie. But then we are all unique people. It's that thread of experiencing Knowledge that hooks us together as premies. I love to see other premies, makes me smile. But I live in a place where there are no premies. When I see them they have to visit or I have to go somewhere. Yes the babble sometimes seems insincere and forced, but premie company and Maharaji is still the best I've found on Earth. Sometimes my wife and kids get on my nerves too, but I never have a thought about leaving them behind either. (Vacations are always nice). I did go without premie company for a few years.. I managed to meditate a little, stayed on track no problem.. But the premie company is a plus.. big events.. the light gets brighter.. that's a fact and it feels good too. My experience of Knowledge inside me is better with premies and Maharaji in my life.

So write me back, (nameless). Maybe even tell me your name?
LOVE IS ALL - Ray

Alonzo Front
My name is …. I beleive there's an automatic signature on my email.

I understand - just as I thought you would - judging from my attitude, you deceided I must be left out. Dandy by me. In this aspect of my life as well as most every other, I prefer not to conform to expectations and am willing to pay whatever it costs. I took the decision early on. You must understand by now that, to me is what I call 'spirituality'. I would have been happy to touch base with old friends and renew with the 'culture' of DLM, DUO, Elan Vital, Vision International. On the other hand, I feel you asked me to make a declaration of adhesion to some dogma. This, I cannot honestly do. In the old days we used to chant Arti morning and night and repeat something to the effect spirituality and dogma were contradictory with each other. We used to chant chanting was out. I bought the paradox and made that my sole dogma: there is no dogma. It is clear I don't fit-in your flock.

That being said, I do not agree Knowledge is something to be 'realized'. It is a process leading nowhere. A ride. A difficult one sometimes. I don't see society as divided between labeled folks. Pros and cons. Aspirants, premies and ex-premies. I don't buy Maharaj ji's implied divinity. You must recognize it isn't openly declared anymore, not even in private functions like Knowledge reviews. I would have liked to be granted a password but respect your decision though I think you're wrong to refuse it. It is a light sanction compared with the inquisition's for a similar sin.

How did you discover I speak French? Do I also write with an accent. I thought my writing was sort of okay. I know I speak with a stong accent. As a matter of fact it is even stonger when there is an advantage to be labeled as a francophone-making-an-effort-to-be-understood. Where are you from Buddy Ji? Judging from your peculiar first name (Harlan), you must be from Kentucky. The only other time I've seen, it was Colonel Sanders name. When I see a foreign film, one of my favorite moment is the closing titles. Can you seriously imagine someone could be named Alistair Foot which sounds a lot like 'aller se faire foutre-getting laid' or Loïc Houle 'L'eau lui coule-He's leaking' or Rowan Atkinson which sounds like nothing I've ever heard but is just plain funny.
.
P.S.: There was a film also titled Harlan County or something, wasn't there?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:52:14 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: premies.org
Message:
Interesting...thanks for posting the letters and responses. More evidence of mind-censuring. I think Alonzo, thatlike most people you see contradictions and grey area in life. This is called being a human being and trying to have a normal conversation with someone. If someone tries to limit you to one 'mindscape' (wow, love that word), then that is cult thinking I mean think about it, if you can't be who you are, what kind of a trip is this--a trip where you have to act in a prescribed way. How silly is that? And as for what M thinks of the website, of course he's behind the actions on the website--why wouldn't he be?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:05:42 (EST)
From: Alonzo Front
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: premies.org
Message:
You're supposing he agrees. Can we ask him, and give him a chance to be decent? Do you think he'll be reported what's written here.

Wherabout do you live honey baby? Maybe we can get together and look into the dictionnary for more words that may seduce you. Have anyone ever talked to you about my secret technique that could kick you beyond the three worlds? (Don't faint just yet, I'm just being plain regular vanilla obnoxious here. My mental age is lower than a teenager. I retract. Sorry (I pretend))
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: premies.org
Message:
Hey Alfonzo, if yer gonna hang out her, act like a gentleman. Like me.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:26:31 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: premies.org
Message:
Huh? what?? I am an old married woman (15 yrs or 14, I forget) and I am clueless when men say these things, were you just coming on to me there or was I hallucinating? I know you were just joking, but please don't give me any heart attacks here, fella.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:08:51 (EST)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: all
Subject: replies to his critics (new)
Message:
The only answer you'll ever get from me
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:57:31 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: premie.org
Message:
Hi Alonzo -
The e-mail exchange between you and Harlan was pretty interesting. Here's what I know about the premie.org site.

The premie.org site was up and running when I got on-line in the summer of 1997. At that time, the site had some information about programs, phone numbers, and a guestbook, which was a place where people could write messages to each other (people that could be identified as ex-premies were NOT allowed to write in this guestbook, by the way).

Apparently, Harlan was asked to shut down the site by 'people around Maharaji' some time in early 1998 (I cannot remember the exact date). For further details on this, you can read
Calling All Premies (on this site)
But be aware that this page is a bit out of date since Harlan has since put the premie.org site BACK up on the Net - we have not updated the page since then.

You asked:
I wonder what Maharaji thinks of such a rigid attitude.

My guess is that Maharaji approves of it, since the premie.org site is back on line, and neither Maharaji or the people around him have asked Harlan to take the site down again.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 01:24:37 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@premie.org
To: Harlan Ray Cooley
Subject: Thanks for the webpage, Harlan
Message:
But be aware that this page is a bit out of date since Harlan has since put the premie.org site BACK up on the Net - we have not updated the page since then.

Yes, but now there's something interesting to update with. I'll get these emails formatted. Should make informative reading and a nice match with the www.enjoyinglife.com page.

Thanks for posting these, Alonzo.

I had a password to that site for a while, but (sadly) I abused the priveledge and it wss changed. I'm probably the reason for the requirement that you have to take vows of stupidity to get access. Now all I have to show for it is a disk cache... The pictures weren't very good, though. The ones of Maharaji dancing in his mala didn't even show his boobs...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:24:15 (EST)
From: Alonzo Front
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: Last edition
Message:
It seem I'm left out in the maya. premies.org rejected my request for a password. Here are the latest news.

Hello ....,
The stationary is nice.

Yes now I do get your name in the header but it was previously missed by me? Maybe it was because we received the mail from the forms on-line.. you have to put your name in there or we don't know it.

I guessed on the French from the electronic evidence of your computer being programmed with French language email client.

Your letter has me grinning. LOL the part about the names. Yes my namesake is Harlan County Kentucky.. my family is from there on my dad's side.. however I was born and raised on farms in Indiana.

Well I am looking this over here and I don't think you are in need of a password.. all there is in there is pictures of Maharaji.. which you would probably not want to look at if He's not the Lord to you... Now on the other hand the part of the site where you can 'touch base with old friends and renew with the 'culture' of DLM, DUO, Elan Vital, Vision International' is wide open.. Premies are on the chat at all different hours of the day and night. You are welcome to look for your old friends there. Now if you are ever overwhelmed with a devotional feeling for Maharaji (again) you might need and desire to look at our pictures of Him.

Meanwhile, it's nice to hear from you anytime.

LOVE IS ALL - Ray
http://premie.com/crc
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:34:54 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: Last edition
Message:
Hey Alonzo, did you have your speakers on when you went to premie.org? They force feed this crappy music which sounds like they copped it off that old British TV series, Brother Cadfael and keep looping it until yer just about nutso. Also there's this really annoying glitch in it where they stitched it together. Now that's bad manners!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:56:58 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Can you believe this?
Message:
gerry: A fair description for Harlan is 'sanctimonious ass_ole.' I can't believe that he turned down a request from Alonzo. Man, now they're 'driving' themselves away!

Alonzo: You came to the right place! RIGHT HERE!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:22:42 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can you believe this?
Message:
Mike,

I had my own go 'round with good ole boy Harlan but managed to fanangle a password out him. I told him I received the big k in '73 and hadn't seen Goober since. This must have been early on because he didn't give me the third degree. I did, however, neglect to tell him I thought Goober was a fraud. Whoops!

PS I'm so fond of my pet name for goober because it changes into a neat anagram ''booger'' without to much strain on my noggin. Now JW, don't go telling me this is a racist thingy, 'cause it's not so intended. To me, it just means one of those nasty things hangin' out of yer nose. Kinda how I visualize the big guy.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 00:16:08 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: Last edition
Message:
Oh, so what is required to get a password to premie.org is an overwhelming devotional feeling for Maraji, a need and desire to look at pictures of Him. Why do they capitalize the H?
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 08:12:28 (EST)
From: DUPEY
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Last edition
Message:
H IS CAPITALIZED AS PROPER NOUN I.E. IMPORTANT PERSON, PLACE OR THING--OR AS A SUBTLE REFERENCE TO DIVINITY
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:18:05 (EST)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: DUPEY
Subject: Who Him?
Message:
Yes, I know, I was just curious about whether they are still saying he's not saying what he's always said about himSelf...

I remember it was like looking for clues...Jesus spoke in parables and premies speak gibberish, with a few capital H's thrown in since we all know what that means. I can say that cuz I've been there. If you listen to maraji (with an open heart of course) you will eventually understand that he is trying to say he is god without actually coming straight out with it.

Since I've reclaimed mySelf, I really appreciate people who say what they mean and mean what they say. Let's not be coy, no riddles...we're all smart enough to figure it out, but sometimes it's better to be CLEAR. Crystal clear (no room for doubts). Maraji should follow his own commandments.

Love,

Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:33:42 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Alonzo Front
Subject: Use this template
Message:
Hi there premie.org. I'm really glad to find your site. I received Knowledge in August 1973 from Mahatma some-Hindi-word-anand. I lived in an ashram for some time in the seventies but am pleased at how things have evolved since then.

My current experience of knowledge is often very fulfilling. I like to watch videos whenever my work allows and really enjoyed the recent video-link with Maharaji. I appreciate, more than ever, the need for Maharaji's guidance in practising knowledge. I know I couldn't practise without him.

Although I often have a wonderful experience of knowledge I have a thirst to go further and experience more. I'm so glad your site is helping people to do this! (A bit of flattery always helps). I look forward to becoming a part of it.

That should get anyone in.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:34:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Harlan's a big baby
Message:
Way back when, when Harlan was first getting his page together, I started exchanging emails with him. There wasn't any action happening then. I had to wait days at times for any replies at all on ex-cult.support news group. Harlan's page was about all you could find searching the net for Maharaji and even then there was not discussion board. Anyway, Harlan and I got along just fine. I told him I thought Maharaji was a fraud who had a lot to answer for and he just smiled, said that wasn't his opinion but, not to worry, life's great, why don't you look me up if you're ever down in Florida some time? Couldn't get a rise out of him, I guess you could say.

So that was boring. What good's a premie you can't discuss the guru with, eh? Not much, I thought, and when the ex page started up I pretty well forgot about ol' Harlan.

At one point, though, Harlan started his own premie message board. This was the one where Mili, who later joined in as co-host or something, shut down the budding discussion between two premies, one of whom thought Maharaji was the Lord, the other who thought it terribly counter-productive to say any such thing. Wouldn't want people thinking this was a cult, after all.

But before then, when the forum was just beginning, I posted mention of the ex-premie page. In particular the forum and the Mishler interview which, I thought, some of the premies might find a little interest in.

Harlan freaked. 'This is MY page', he screamed, 'Mine!' Blocked me from ever posting there again and hasn't talked to me since. Mel, if you're reading this, think you could have a word with him for me? Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:50:05 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
This story is dedicated to COLIN NEIBURGER of the Amtext office in Miami. Without his inspiration I wouldn't even have the heart to tell it.
Neiburger was the one who referred to me as the 'dog face buyer from Canada.' I only have one question about that today.
Did m ask him to do it?
Neiburger himself, is the resident circus freak fat boy head fucking artist at the office, relishing his role as the resident office rottweiler, while bemoaning his incurable obesity so as to garner the sympathy of his victims.
Trust me on this one. He's truly worthy of this dedication.
I hope he enjoys it!
******************************************************************
Introduction
On May 11, 96 as I have already recalled on these pages, I attended what was billed as an 'intimate party with Maharaji' at his Malibu residence, for the premie book buyers associated with Amtext and its office staff.
For those of you who missed our discussion on Amtext last November here on the forum, let me attempt a brief introduction.
Amtext is a twenty year old company whose president, pwk Chuck Nathan, has described m as being the company's 'sole beneficial owner'
Now there are quite a few fine points that could be brought into the picture here, if we really wanted to probe the true meaning of m being the sole beneficial owner of Amtext. But that would only delay unnecessarily the telling of this story, so we can always have that discussion some other time.
For now, suffice to say that being the sole beneficial owner of Amtext, has brought m an average of over $1,000,000,000 a year for the last twenty years. I believe he's very fond of Amtext and everyone involved.
Please keep in mind that not one cent of this money goes to propagation/dissemination. The Amtext pwk's are very proud of the fact, that their efforts are dedicated to supporting the 'personal needs ' of m and his family. Its their greatest honor. I know... I was one of them.
And it was to show us his 'personal appreciation', as only he can, that m invited us to the residence on May,11, 96.
******************************************************************
The Story
Most of the guests for the party were staying at the Wyndham hotel at LAX.
After a series of roll calls and sign ins (there were a total of four before we we even arrived at the residence, where we had still another sign in ahead of us once the gates to the residence were actually opened) we were organized into vans for the trek up to Malibu.
The party was slated to start at 4:00pm sharp ,not a minute sooner. By the time my van arrived, there were around 80 of the 150 guests who had already arrived. We were just standing around,wating for the gates to open, when Wadi Sue pulled into the driveway in her little mercedes.
I believe everyone there wanted to treat her with the respect befitting 'Maharaji's daughter'. There was no crowding around her car... in fact we just stayed where we were, so as to give Wadi her 'space', everyone just smiling in her direction from wherever we were standing.
As Wadi got out of her car, she treated us all to a display of freakery, that must have come straight out of ' The Twilight Zone.'
She emerged from her car with this expression of total terror on her face. She looked at the group of us, with this look of horror and contempt, as if she was looking at a gang of Jagdeos or something. And then she ran away disappearing on this trail that goes by the side of the house. We never saw her again that day.
Of course, who the fuck would want to see her after that, anyways?!
I immediately put it out of my mind ,when it happened. Wasn't going to let it spoil my 'intimate' moment with Maharaji.
Besides as every premie dam well knows, that feeling that Wadi expressed to her dad's premies as she got out of her car could in no way reflect m's own feelings for his premies. Could they?
No way. Besides it cost me $1,000 dollars to get there.
Fuck Wadi Sue, It was party time with Maharaji.!!
Even if Wadi was the party pooper.
Perhaps she has no way of relating to premies like they are normal people?
I guess thats why dad is letting her assume a more significant place in his organization. Who knows , maybe she feels more comfortable relating to premies when she can speak to them from the pedestal of being up on the same stage with m.
Who cares? If you ask me, those Rawats are one sick fuck of a family.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:03:48 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
For now, suffice to say that being the sole beneficial owner of Amtext, has brought m an average of over $1,000,000,000 a year for the last twenty years.

Nim, a billion dollars a year? He must truly be the Lord of the Universe!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:52:58 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Am I ever glad you're on ...
Message:
the ball, gerry!
YOU're right... the figure actually is $1,000,000,or one million dollars. Sheesh! Just got carried away with all those zeroes.
But, did you like the story?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:10:32 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Am I ever glad you're on ...
Message:
Nim,

Yes! I really liked the story! I thought it was great and really telling. Do you think it was distain on her part to act like that or just the freaking out of an young person in an impossibly crazy situation?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:07:38 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Am I ever glad you're on ...
Message:
. Do you think it was distain on her part to act like that or just the freaking out of an young person in an impossibly crazy situation?
To this day gerry, I can't figure out what was so 'impossibly crazy' about a bunch of middle aged adults just standing around, no one rushing her... everyone just smiling at her, just glad to see her.
But then again, maybe for a Rawat, THAT is an impossibly crazy situation ...who knows?
So much for an afternoon of 'intimacy' with the Rawats.
Yes gerry, I believe what I witnessed, was a reflection of m's own contempt for premies, internalized by his daughter.
Wadi may have had a really bad day, but her response to all these premies... that we weren't even worth any kind of greeting other than her freaked out expression... I still find it rather contemptible on her part.
And again, a reflection of her dad's own contempt.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:15:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Am I ever glad you're on ...
Message:
Nim,

By impossibly crazy situation I meant growing up with Rawrat as your father and all the craziness that may have emcompassed.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:15:27 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Am I ever glad you're on ...
Message:
By impossibly crazy situation I meant growing up with Rawrat as your father and all the craziness that may have emcompassed
Sorry gerry, I didn't realize thats what you meant, and I feel as if I can't answer. I really don't know what growing up with her dad actually did to Wadi.
I'm just beginning to realize what it has done to me.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:18:04 (EST)
From: Alonzo Fron
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: A spoiled brat makes a face...
Message:
and run to her room. That ain't much of a story. We must get a writer from the National Enquirer to work on it.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:15:49 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
'Perhaps she has no way of relating to premies like they are normal people?'

So you think premies are normal people?

That's a good story Nim, please I'd like to hear more.

Though maybe ya had to be there to appreciate #1 daughter's expression. Maybe she just remembered that you all were gonna be there that day, and you spoiled her plans somehow. With all due respect, I mean, really, I can sympathize with her reaction. Can you imagine the bull shit that must flow when a lot of premies get around her father? Like, gag me with a spoon, puhleeze!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:28:31 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: John
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
With all due respect, I mean, really, I can sympathize with her reaction. Can you imagine the bull shit that must flow when a lot of premies get around her father? Like, gag me with a spoon, puhleeze
Well I have to agree, but if you read my post to Zac, I mentioned that Daya handled the situation a little differently.
BTW, there is more to tell of that party and I will.
Not all in one shot maybe, but I will.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:37:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
I'm with you, John. The premies probably ruined her plans. This is just a guess, but if I were raised with all these people gawking at my Dad, interferring with our family, I would be pretty pissed off to see all of them standing in our yard, yet again. As a teen, maybe I would have feigned good manners, maybe not. I may have shot them all a bird.

I'd rather be raised poor with available parents, than rich with people always wanting a 'piece' of my family. I know premies pay for everything Wadi has, but maybe all she wants is a normal life. I don't feel a bit sorry for Maharaji, but I do feel compassion for his children. They didn't ask to be born into that circus.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:44:37 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
I don't feel a bit sorry for Maharaji, but I do feel compassion for his children. They didn't ask to be born into that circus.
But in Wadi's case she definitely doesn't mind taking her rightful place in dad's circus.
Presiding as MC for the satellite telecast of last December, and also assuming a full time paying position at Visions.
I understand that people and things are being shuffled so she can play a more prominent role.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:21:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
I can't recall the date you gave for this story about Wadi Sue. Was she working for Visions at the time? If not, you know the old saying, 'If you can't beat them, join them.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 23:19:48 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
The date for the party was May 11,96. I can't say for sure that she was already working at Visions, but if she wasn't , she cerainly started shortly thereafter.
If you can't beat them, join them.
And she certainly has, big time.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:25:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
Neiburger was the one who referred to me as the 'dog face buyer from Canada.'

I recently received a picture of Colin, can't say right now where I got it, but all I can say is he would seem to have little room to comment on anyone else's appearance, nor does there appear to be much room for anyone or anything else when he is around.

Why did he call you names? What did you do in his eyes to deserve that, or is he just a jerk?

Did you ever find out why Wadi Sue was so freaked out?

This is catty, but what color was Wadi's 'little Mercedes?' Was it a convertible? Did it have a sign on it saying 'Paid For By Gullible Devotees of My Dad?'

Did you get to go into 'the residence' or did you have to stay outside?

So, tell us about your 'intimate moment' with Maharaji. Was it all you ever hoped it would be? Did you see him smoke a cigarette?

How long did you stay at 'the residence?' Did he let you use the bathroom? What was the toilet made out of?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:44:51 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Like a gang of Jagdeo's ha ha
Message:
Your killing me, Nim. I can picture M telling you guys to come with the Jagdeo rubber masks on so he could freak out Wadi.

But truly this story tells me that premies are held in extremely low regard by the royals and that a bunch of middle class premies even scrubbed up for the residence is just too much for them to bear. Regardless that this one visit netted the family close to $20,000,000. Christ, She and Dhaya should have been up there wiggling and singing to you guys til long after dark if you ask me.

The final straw will be when M appoints one of his little nitwits to succeed him. That will be a laugher!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:22:42 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Like a gang of Jagdeo's ha ha
Message:
Christ, She and Dhaya should have been up there wiggling and singing to you guys til long after dark if you ask me.
Daya was actually at the party, the only one of m's children to attend.
She didn't sing for us, but she was the complete opposite of her sister.
Even after m went into the house for good and the party was almost over, Daya stayed and mingled very casually and gracefully with people.
Like I said, she was quite charming and the total opposite of her sister.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:42:08 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: select perverts only
Subject: warning--this may piss you off
Message:
Regardless that this one visit netted the family close to $20,000,000. Christ, She and Dhaya should have been up there wiggling and singing to you guys til long after dark if you ask me.

20 million bucks !?! Christ, they shoulda been on their knees all night for that kind of dough!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:44:09 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: warning--this may piss you off
Message:
Boy, o boy gerry, am I glad you're watching those numbers.
I think Zac may have been thinking that this was the only Amtext gathering with m.
It was the first at the residence, but m has these Amtext gatherings on average every two years. So, I guess it was a $2,000,000 visit
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:37:45 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: $500,000 per hour party
Message:
Was Dennis Rodman there?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:56:48 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: $500,000 per hour party
Message:
Was Dennis Rodman there?
Common Zac, who needs Dennis?
We had our own 'mahaclown' at the party.
Can you imagine m and Rodman competing for attention?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:55:04 (EST)
From: Fakiranand
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Maharaj ji's toilet...
Message:
I thought the toilet was made of Gold. My wife wouldn't believe me. During Darshan next time I ask Almighty Lord to tell her it was. He turned towards the Divine photographer and told her: 'Honey. I now know who pooped in the tuba.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:02:33 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
Why did he call you names? What did you do in his eyes to deserve that, or is he just a jerk?
I had done nothing. Believe it or not, I never in my entire godforsaken Amtext existence up until that point even spoke one foul word to anyone in that office( very unlike my conduct on these pages).Even after that incident, I held it in for almost two years, and only when I accepted that the situation was hopeless did I let them have it at the office.

Colin had been my account rep at the office. He had spent close to two years attempting to indoctrinate me into ' acceptable Amtext premie thinking.' By that I mean the notion that the sponsoring of other buyers in my territory would somehow be a good thing for me. That even though this was a business as opposed to service, I shouldn't be all that concerned with whether or not I was making enough money.

For the life of me I just couldn't see how more competition in my territory would help me. I could see how it could help Amtext but not me.
I always agreed to politely disagree with Colin when he got on these indoctrination tracks, but I think he felt there was nothing more he could do. So, it was time to pass me off to another Account rep.
I really believe the reason he called me 'dog face buyer from Canada' was to provoke me to retaliate, thereby giving him a legitimate reason not to work with me. I just didn't bite.
None the less the following July, I did experience a change of account reps.
That'll be another story.

Did you ever find out why Wadi Sue was so freaked out?
Nope...and I don't remember the color of her car... dark grey maybe.

Did you get to go into 'the residence' or did you have to stay outside?
We stayed outside. The whole party took place in the courtyard.

So, tell us about your 'intimate moment' with Maharaji. Was it all you ever hoped it would be? Did you see him smoke a cigarette?
No he didn't smoke, although if he was really interested in bonding with me, he could have done something like
' Common Nim, why don't you and I go for a little stroll and blow this dube together...' Didn't happen.
Instead my intimate moment consisted of him giving me my little trinket trophy gift.
And I wondered as he gave it,
'Is this guy really loving me, or is he laughing at me?'
Somehow, with m, I think its really hard to tell.

How long did you stay at 'the residence?' Did he let you use the bathroom? What was the toilet made out of?
We stayed there for close to four and one half hours.
Unfortunately, while this may have been a 'golden' opportunity, to check out the residence toilets, we were provided with some portable, outdoor johnnies, or whatever you want to call them.
Common JW, do you really think m is going to place his magnificent Rawatian derriere, where some premie asshole has just been?
I don't think so.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:00:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
By that I mean the notion that the sponsoring of other buyers in my territory would somehow be a good thing for me. That even though this was a business as opposed to service, I shouldn't be all that concerned with whether or not I was making enough money.

Did he actually say you shouldn't be concerned about making enough money? If I recall what you said before, you don't get any extra money (or at least not much) for sponsoring another buyer, who is really competition for you. Since 'Colin' couldn't give you 'satsang,' did he just cajole you to do that? What possible incentive could you have to do it? How much money did 'Colin' make? Was his income tied to the number of buyers?

We stayed outside. The whole party took place in the courtyard.

Unfortunately, while this may have been a 'golden' opportunity, to check out the residence toilets, we were provided with some portable, outdoor johnnies, or whatever you want to call them.


You mean Amtext pays him $1,000,000 a year and he won't even let the fucking workers into the house and he made them stay outside? And you had to use Port-a-poties? God, what an ingrate!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:38:19 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
Did he actually say you shouldn't be concerned about making enough money? If I recall what you said before, you don't get any extra money (or at least not much) for sponsoring another buyer, who is really competition for you.. Since 'Colin' couldn't give you 'satsang,' did he just cajole you to do that? What possible incentive could you have to do it?
The competition that Colin wanted me to accept, would be competition sponsored most likely by the Brogans, and/or some other more established buyer. I'm not saying here that Neiburger or anyone else was expecting me to sponsor others who would end up competing against me.
Although I can remember a conversation with Barbara Brogan in which she broached the possibility of me moving to Toronto once the territory in Quebec would be more established.
Her idea was for me to cede the Montreal business to someone else, in effect sponsoring that person and collecting the 2% sponsor commission on that persons business and go on to Toronto to develop a new territory.
(BTW, JW, there IS a 2% sponsor commission at Amtext. I believe I did mention that)
But by that time, I had understood that developing a territory just to give it away, collect the 2%, and move on to develop the business elsewhere was totally against my own self-interest. A business grows when you STAY PUT in a territory and make it grow. If you feel the need to expand, the best way to go about it would be to chose an area near your own territory, and add it on.
So how would it be in my interest to go along with what they were suggesting?
Well, if I went along with their suggestions, with their approach, I would be loved. Loved by the Amtext management team and loved by the Boss.
If I didn't, I wouldn't. I'd end up in the Amtext doghouse where I eventually did end up.
Back to Colin , I'm not sure how much he was paid. I'm not sure if the account reps at the office are paid an overide on the buyers they handle. I think it's mostly a salary, and he would always let me know that he was getting less monetarily than he should, compared to the time and effort he put into his job.
I always felt the inference being that I should be willing to make my own 'sacrifices' at Amtext since at the end of the day, it would be m who benefits.
So it was mostly cajoling on his part, although there were ways of communicating satsang style over the phone, and completely hide what we were really talking about.
Let me just give you a few Amtext satsang code words that I made up, to facilitate my more demented conversations with the premies at the office:
Maharaji= the Boss( actually everyone at Amtext refers to m that way...so this I didn't have to make up.
Knowledge= tricks of the trade.
Premies= Pals.
So on occasion just to make these guys happy, I would say something like this:
'O, I went to see this really wonderful video last night. Really, it was a video of the Boss talking about his tricks of the trade, and there were quite a few of his pals there. What a beautiful evening!'
You mean Amtext pays him $1,000,000 a year and he won't even let the fucking workers into the house and he made them stay outside? And you had to use Port-a-poties? God, what an ingrate!
Common JW,it was a beautiful California day, I had come all the way from Canada. It was Maharaji's compassion that allowed me to enjoy such a beautiful day outdoors.
Besides, Wadi was inside the house. She needed her space.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:52:27 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Amtext Tactics
Message:
Amtext and the sole beneficial owner are absolutely using the most degrading, humiliating tactics for advancing their business. It's fucking shameful.

Nim Have you heard of any changes at AMTEXT since the X page made Maharaji aware of the tactics used at his own business?

Jesus Christ MJ write's in a post above how he lovingly gives everyone attending the knowledge session a bottle of water. Course after 'he's gotcha' it's bend over charlie. Don't they have a name for that kind of behavior? Oh yea, It's DICK TATER.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:53:39 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Amtext Tactics
Message:
Nim Have you heard of any changes at AMTEXT since the X page made Maharaji aware of the tactics used at his own business?
No, I really haven't heard anything of what's going on with Amtext in terms of its relations with its premie buyers, or anything else. Its a very secretive milieu.
I feel that there's no point speculating on it in detail.
For myself,suffice to say,if the discussion that we're having here deters Chuck Nathan, the Brogans, the Amtext office from fucking with another premie buyer the way they fucked with me, I would be more than happy.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:37:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
The competition that Colin wanted me to accept, would be competition sponsored most likely by the Brogans, and/or some other more established buyer.

So, this sounds like a real double standard. You would develop a new territory, and the Brogans would add to their apparently considerable income while you start over in a new territory. And then, of course, Maharaji, as the 'beneficial owner of Amext, would ultimately get more money as well. But it sounds like the Brogans would get their piece of it at your expense, and you were supposed to do this because of your devotion to Mahararji.

Well, if I went along with their suggestions, with their approach, I would be loved. Loved by the Amtext management team and loved by the Boss. If I didn't, I wouldn't. I'd end up in the Amtext doghouse where I eventually did end up.

How would being 'loved by the Amtext management team' benefit you, other than somebody like Colin being nice to you on the phone, and would M even KNOW that you did what the management team wanted? For example, would the 'management team' be in a position to prevent you from going to that party at the residence? Was any buyer who was also a premie prevented from going? What if a buyer stopped going to videos and programs and the management team knew that? Would that person still be invited? How did Amtext know if a buyer was sill a card carrying premie?

Let me just give you a few Amtext satsang code words that I made up, to facilitate my more demented conversations with the premies at the office:
Maharaji= the Boss( actually everyone at Amtext refers to m that way...so this I didn't have to make up.
Knowledge= tricks of the trade.
Premies= Pals.


A similar thing went on at DECA. There, Maharaji = the Client and I think Premies = 'co-workers.' I don't recall that there was a code word for knowledge or satsang, but since the place was crawling with ashram premies all in one place, none of the attempted cover-ups of what was really going on worked very well.

It became common knowledge in the Miami area that Deca was part of the Divine Light Mission cult -- it was very funny. I remember one time calling the phone company to get a phone installed in the Miami satsang hall and told the woman at the phone company that I was calling on behalf of Divine Light Mission. The woman said: is that the same thing as DECA? I always get the two mixed up.

I'm sure that it was only Maharaji's grace that made it sunny down there in Southern California where lack of sun would be a pervasive problem otherwise.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:13:46 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
So, this sounds like a real double standard. You would develop a new territory, and the Brogans would add to their apparently considerable income while you start over in a new territory. And then, of course, Maharaji, as the 'beneficial owner of Amext, would ultimately get more money as well. But it sounds like the Brogans would get their piece of it at your expense, and you were supposed to do this because of your devotion to Mahararji.
Amtext is riddled with double standards as is the cult in general.
But the principal objective of the company is this... the maximation of its after -tax, net profit , because that, and I mean ALL OF THAT PROFIT, is 'his play'.
But mostly, in his play, he choses to pocket it as a gift from the company.
Now, AMtext is exploring other business directions on m's behalf...there were a few people who were given their little trinket for doing the research at the party. Possible future fields of endeavour for Amtext are the brokering of copyright, trademarks and patents... and projects in various communication technologies of which their was no indication as to their precise nature...just so you know.
My point to you is really twofold(perhaps a digression in some sense but a useful one)here:
1)Amtext(Chuck Nathan, specifically) is seeking business opportunities beyond the textbook business, that are of INTEREST TO M personally and of course to his life's work, if you can call it that.
2)M has the final say on any major company decision, investment...Since the company's net profit after tax is m's 'play', Chuck would have to consult m on any such major decision.
Chuck and m have lots to talk about. That's why even though the Amtext office is in Miami, Chuck lives in Malibu.

There's one more thing I believe they talk about, and that is dissenting premie book buyers, especially where Chuck may feel that he needs m's 'support' for the company's tactics in a particular situation.
MJ knows... and I feel certain even today that he knew about my own situation, that I was becoming a very unhappy camper, and an unhappy camper I'd always be unless he helped out.
I have no doubt that had I attended the second Amtext party on The 17 th Oct. 97, I would have been the beneficiary of m's special attention. In fact I was told by the Miami office that while the party itself, like the last one, would begin at 4:00 pm , I was going to be taken there as part of a 'smaller group' at 3:00 pm.
It was just too much of an honor for me, and I decided that 4hrs with m to legitimize one and a half years of headfuckery UNTIL THE NEXT PARTY, was not the way I wanted to live my life.
Within 9 months of not accepting that invitation to the residence I was out of Amtext, or I should say I was told my business was no longer appreciated there.
A word on Amtext office tactics re; wayward premie buyers.
Let's just say the Chuck found out from Georges Legeres that I reneged on my EV pledge for 96 , that I really wasn't going to videos, not seen among premies too often and when I am I'm complaining about the treatment I get from The Amtext Office.
JW, once I've forked out $2000 lets say, to buy books and ship them off to Amtext at MBS, that money and my expected profit is in their hands. And I'm pretty powerless to do anything about it. If your dealing with assholes... well then your in their hands.
They can delay the sending off of money to you for the stupidest of reasons, and that happened to me on more then one occasion.
They can have your books checked in with a greater 'used' versus 'new' check in ratio, resulting in less profit for you on your shipment.
They can choose not to answer the phone, when you're calling in. And then deny that they even have caller ID, when only someone with an IQ in the single digits,can even believe that such an office can function WITHOUT a sufficiently advanced telephone system. They keep track of area codes that buyers are calling in from. That's important.
They'll even disguise their voices sometimes and answer the phone in fake characters. I'm serious ... this is for real, happened to me. That's why, when I see these fake characters here on the forum , its almost like an Amtext deja vu for me.
What I'm trying to convey here is that there's all kinds of means for them to fuck you over if you get into the doghouse on the basis of 'devotional' or 'premie oriented' considerations to say the least.
And they have and and they do.
After a while, if its considered this guy is as good as being an ex... well of course, that would constitute grounds for that person to be left off the invite list for the next shindig at the residence. Heck, we'll see in my case... I'm still waiting for an invitation...like I'm waiting for a pimple on my ass but thats beside the point.
Let me wrap this up with a point on the Brogans.
They don't make all that much money overall by sponsoring. I would estimate their book business income today being $300,000 only 20% and no more of that coming from their sponsor commissions.
Now its only 2%(the sponsor commission) on ONE GENERATION OF BUYERS ONLY, this is not multi level, so the Brogans would have lost at least in the short term, while I built the business elsewhere.
Again, JW, this could have been Barb Brogan's way of showing me that at Amtext, we all want what's best for the Boss
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 16:46:29 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Sue Amtext?
Message:
Within 9 months of not accepting that invitation to the residence I was out of Amtext, or I should say I was told my business was no longer appreciated there.

What I'm trying to convey here is that there's all kinds of means for them to fuck you over if you get into the doghouse on the basis of 'devotional' or 'premie oriented' considerations to say the least.

Okay, this is for real. You have been discriminated against if not in employment, then in independent contracting.

Have you considered talking to a lawyer about a lawsuit against Amtext based on religious discrimination? At least in the USA, the Supreme Court has decided that both 'religion' and 'non-religion' are protected categories. If you filed such a lawsuit, it would also mean the court would require 'discovery,' meaning you could require Amtext to turn over documents and testify under oath. Disclosure that the business is really for the benefit of Maharaji, would provide a strong motivation for the discrimination you sustained because your belief in Maharaji changed. Since Nathan has been so vocal about the 'beneficial owner' business and the 'play' business, I doubt he and others would risk lying under oath because so many others have heard the same thing. And disclosure about the residence parties would help show the same thing.

Now, I don't know the details, but something is pretty rotten at Amtext. They can't legally screw people just because they don't live up to their religious/cult expectations.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 19:30:10 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sue Amtext?
Message:
Yes, something is pretty rotten at Amtext, and has been for along time.
When I began to feel the shit hitting the fan, I confided in my friend Nancy, who introduced me to Amtext back in the very beginning, Feb 94.
I told her about the 'personal considerations' that were being brought to bear on my business relationship with Amtext.
She almost suggested that I quit the business, but then she stopped herself, realizing the significance of what she was saying.
But she did caution me to be careful. She was very familiar with Amtext, and she said that there was a history of real dissension amongst the premies.
Re Chuck Nathan, she told me to watch out for him... he had a reputation of being a cut throat little prick.
And of course we now know today as well, that the company was conceived in a pure act of theivery, by Chuck Nathan and his original bookbuying premies who literally stole the idea and the company from the guy who had originally conceived of it. I'm of course referring to RDS, who told us his Amtext story last November as well.
We can be certain that m has known about this, but done nothing to rectify the situation.
So yes JW, something has been very wrong at Amtext and very wrong from the very beginning. In more than one way.
As far as myself launching a lawsuit against Amtext I'd like to take some time to consider recourses of action. A lawsuit along the lines you mentioned is one. There may be others.
Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:16:08 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
Another Classic. M has a gold toilet while premies use portopotties.

As I mentioned before, I met a guy at a programme who was really pissed off because his wife had just missed her daughter's (5th)
birthday party to receive a trinket from M. I bet she got a lot more blissed out receiving her trinket than she ever would at her daughter's birthday. What's wrong with this picture? I get the feeling M would't miss his daughter's birthday for the premies.

Answer: It's always don't do as I do, do as I say.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:50:50 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Friends
Subject: The day the 'lass' ran away!
Message:
Hello Friends,

Nim, quite an interesting party to be sure!

Now don't get shocked gentlemen but this mom thinks we should leave the young ladies, Wadi Sue and Dhaya out of this thread.

I've seen that look on many a young womans face, even my own daughters at times.

That said, Nim, I'm dying to know if M danced for everyone and don't you think his movements are just like Dorito's Nacho Man?

More on the party please....

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 19:58:37 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Mary M
Subject: Put yourself in her shoes
Message:
Imagine being a teenager again. You come back home from seeing your friend or something and see a load of aging, middle-aged people standing around your house (all strangers) with weird grins on their faces and all looking at you as if they know you intimately. Also these people have come to see your Father who they think is God.

If that had been ME, I would have made a hasty exit myself and left this strange bunch of grinning inanely middle-aged people standing well away from me.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:58:52 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Put yourself in her shoes
Message:
Allright.
But for once I'd like to see a Rawat put themselves in MY shoes.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:54:01 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: AMEN! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:42:59 (EST)
From: mom
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: The day the 'lass' ran away!
Message:
Mary M
I agree- the look of disdain and supressed disgust while looking innocently shocked on the surface -- all these are par for the course girl in a social/family situation.
I can relate to her reaction, bad mannered as it may have been.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:25:48 (EST)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: mom
Subject: yeah..I can see it...
Message:
You come home, who knows maybe you just saw your boyfriend talking to a pretty girl...who knows what teen angst you are in the midst of...

you drive up, and OH SHIT...all these grinning old fools are standing there lined up for the porta potties...thanks daddy for not letting them in the house...

My kids sometimes look at my guests in horror too so I am not sure how much you can read into it.

However the porta potties are pretty telling...I just cannot imagine such a party where the guests are not invited into the house. What a slap in the face. And it does send a message to the kids no doubt that premies are something one must tolerate to make ones living but you really don't want them getting germs on your toilet seat.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:53:26 (EST)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: The day the 'lass' ran away!
Message:
That said, Nim, I'm dying to know if M danced for everyone and don't you think his movements are just like Dorito's Nacho Man?
Sorry Mary, there was no dancing by m. He did shake his ankle at one time, and that did seem to send some gopi hearts fluttering.
But fortunately, everyone recovered.
And I'm sorry, but I've never seen Dorito's Nacho Man. Which cult is that?:):):)
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 01:21:24 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: The day the 'lass' ran away!
Message:
Love you Mary M, but with all the vomit my family was subject to due to my indoctrination in the cult of the BM, it's hard to see why his own family should be spared. He inflicted 'mass hysteria' on the families of his followers, don't you think?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:57:51 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Mass Hysteria
Message:
Hi Run,

Totally! I'm not sure my own family has completely recovered either.

I'm just cautious about the girls because God only knows what has happened to them. And... pedophilia is quite an insidious mental state. There are no boundaries set by the pedophiliac.

Love,
Mare
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:09:38 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Hysteria and no boundaries
Message:
Are you serious? Do actualy believe Maharaji is pedophiliac?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:19:04 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Hysteria and no boundaries
Message:
Janet,

I was not referring to Maharaji. I was referring to a few of his Mahatmas who may have had access to his daughers without M&M knowing it.

I think some of the 'gopis' when M was 15 were pedophiles (albeit female pedophiles are a bit more difficult to pinpoint). When he was in the U.S. and under the age of 16 any female who fondled, or had sex with him would be considered pedophiles if they committed 'Lewd and Lascivious Acts on a Child under the Age of 16.'

Check out the State of Florida, FDLE Sex Offender Web Site.

That might help clarify the issue a bit for you.

Mary
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 17:05:29 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: premies = mahatma free lunch
Message:
Maybe, but the chances are that's Mahatma Ji can take whatever he wants out of the trash- free pickings. Back at the rez, Mahatma Ji can eat the dirt near the floor wear the girls walk.

They're going to inherit the dynasty, and they need to leave if they're going to earn my respect. If you're right, they especially need to leave, but there is no evidence and, our families never will get over it even if we do.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:05:16 (EST)
From: bill cooper
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: The day the 'lass' ran away!
Message:
Nim,

Never having been in the presence of the lord except at darshan I have to wonder how he comes across in a normal social situation. For example when I met Iyengar the yoga teacher in Penzance Cornwall I was able to chat to him and ask him questions etc. I certainly didn't come away with the idea that he was god but I did consider the fact that he might be a good yoga teacher. Did you get to say anything to him ?
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:01:52 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away
Message:
I expect you told the tale of the party last November but I missed it. Can we hear it again..pppplllleeeeesssssee?

I enjoyed Anth's description of Daya's party recently.

Love, a PAM wannabe!
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 23:55:41 (EST)
From: Incredulous
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: She drives a.....
Message:
WHAT????????????????
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:36:55 (EST)
From: This just in!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Goober spills the beans!
Message:
Check out Lard Ass' latest subliminal admission hot off the presses from India:

PARROT TALK

Here, people teach parrots to say: 'Ram. Ram.' In other places, they teach them to say: 'Polly want a cracker.'

These few words do not mean that a parrot can really speak. Even if it can say: 'Yes' and 'No', the parrot does not know what these words mean.

Are we not sometimes like parrots ourselves? Someone has taught us something and we just repeat it. We are ready to accept whatever


It gets worse. Check it for your self. Click here for nausea relief:
Barf, Barf, Barf (sung to the tune of Dance, Dance, Dance)

click on March when you get there--Gerry
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:46:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: More...
Message:
Maharaji, the man of immeasureble compassion, the golden one who glows brighter than a thousand suns has this to say about the death of a loved one:

When life leaves the body that you love so much, people, who once loved you too, will soon start to dislike your dead body.

You think you are beautiful and what you have done has impressed people. But even the people that cared for you and wanted to be close to you will only cry for one or two days in remembrance of you. Then everything will be back to normal.


This guy's a psychopath.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:56:04 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: even more...
Message:
Here Goober really let's the cat out of the bag:

When people go to the movies, they cry and cry and cry. Usually someone dies or there is dialogue like: 'I love you, but you have rejected me and left me.'

In reality the actor doesn't even know the woman he is talking to very well. He doesn't love her and is married to someone else.

But people are prepared to forget everything for three hours, to completely forget reality.

This is really fooling people. You get them to stand in line, take their money, put them in a dark room and then show them a lie. And then the people start imagining: 'This is the truth.'


Is he describing his own tactics here, or what? This is incredible.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 21:58:18 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: even more...
Message:
Fantasy is a normal exciting and wonderful part of life. Movies are one type of fantasy. What is wrong with movies? Aren't movies entertaining--a part of enjoying life? (Especially if there is buttered popcorn and some junior mints-snicker!)

This is really fooling people. You get them to stand in line, take their money, put them in a dark room and then show them a lie. And then the people start imagining: 'This is the truth.'

He is way off base. I have lived 'Shakespeare in Love'(minus the funny outfits, of course)--the emotions, the passion, that's why it was so incredibly entertaining to me. It transported me back to another time in my past when I was young and very much in love. What a great way to spend a couple of hours.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 11:55:34 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: even more...
Message:
'This is really fooling people. You get them to stand in line, take their money, put them in a dark room and then show them a lie. And then the people start imagining: 'This is the truth.''

Sounds like my Knowledge session!
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:48:30 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: even more...
Message:
Mick,

'This is really fooling people. You get them to stand in line, take their money, put them in a dark room and then show them a lie. And then the people start imagining: 'This is the truth.''

Sounds like my Knowledge session!


That's exactly what I was getting at!
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 15:23:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: even more...
Message:
I know; I'm agreeing with you!
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 17:31:55 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: even more...
Message:
I thought for a while you and I were the only ones who caught the irony! His choice of words is so incredibly telling it's like have a microscope into his psyche.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:11:04 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: HE IS WRONG!
Message:
gerry: A day rarely goes by where I don't have a nice thought about those in my family that are no longer here. The thoughts are almost always pleasant. Members of my family left their mark on me for the rest of my life and I can't thank them enough for it.

He can't project his negative image of life on me; in this arena he is most definitely WRONG!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:22:20 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: HE IS WRONG!
Message:
Mike can you imagine the shallowness and lack of basic human feelings this guy must have to say these types of things?

He seems unable to experience basic human feelings, and his words, actions (and omissions) speak to a total lack of conscience. This is the textbook definition of a psychopath (sociopath--same thing.)

I just hope he doesn't pull a Jim Jones--something I think he is perfectly capable of doing.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:15:08 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: HE IS WRONG!
Message:
I agree Gerry, it's so nihilistic. No wonder I got depressed following him. Jesus, it's such a depressive message he's giving: 'You will die and rot and noone will give a damn about you. Noone will even come to your funeral. Your body will start to smell and people will like you even less. ' Jesus what a hopeless message that is! This is enjoying life?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:10:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Say what you mean, Maharaji!
Message:
gerry, That little speech about death was so compassionate wasn't it-HA! Why doesn't he say what he means:

'You are worthless scum on the face of the earth. Yeah, you think you are great, but soon you too will be dust. Not even your friends and relatives will remember you or give a shit that you were even here. I am the only one with cares about you, only because I want your money. And if you don't fall for this manipulative little speech, I won't get your money. So I will say anything to scare you. This particular manipulation seems to work well on those of you who are suffering in the self-esteem category, or those of you who want to please. Tomorrow's topic will be aimed at those of you who are intellectuals and those who are loving and giving. Hey, I have an idea. Let's cut the shit and all of you pwks write me a check now, okay? That way I can go home to my mansion in Malibu and have a massage, watch a movie on cable and get a blow job from my girlfriend. Here's a pen.'

The guy is all heart, really.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 22:36:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Say what you mean, Maharaji!
Message:
HA HA lots of chuckles, Veep.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:57:26 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: This just in!
Subject: There he goes again
Message:
Gerry: M's insulting the animal kingdom again (and proving his absolute ignorance in the process)! Parrots CAN think and CAN know the words they speak. Extensive research is being performed at U of A on an african parrot that recognizes color, shapes, items (like keys), etc. His vocabulary is quite large and he DOES know the meanings. Even the most skeptical behavioral scientists admit that this bird is amazing (he's even been featured on tv programs, so M should have seen it).

SO.... once again, M, you have proven with your own words how little you really know/understand about 'this precious life.'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:30:39 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Maharaji = Mr. Negative
Message:
Why does Maharaji have to be so negative all the time? Man, he disses everything. Now he's dissing movies? What a weirdo!
I guess so-called 'knowledge' is supposed to be so 'fantastic' an 'experience' that entertainment is useless to a fully 'realised' sage like Maharaji. You just know that hypocrite probably owns every movie ever made, on DVD, anyway. He's constatly babbling about remote controls and sattelite dishes.
What a total idiot!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:55:55 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Maharaji = Mr. Negative
Message:
That is really true- and something for premies to consider who are always calling us negative. M is always cutting up normal expressions of love and normal pursuits of people. I guess I would knock normal cars if I had a fleet of mercedes, but somehow that's not what his satsangs are supposed to be about.
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