Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 43

From: Mar 20, 1999

To: Apr 5, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



Mel Bourne -:- Brian, premie posting rights -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 03:37:46 (EST)
__cp -:- Mel- thread crashers too?? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 03:59:49 (EST)
__YOU -:- premie rights -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 04:27:04 (EST)
____L -:- RIGHTS -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:45:41 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- premie rights - no way -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:19:48 (EST)
__Mary M -:- Mel & Volleyball -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:40:09 (EST)
____Jerry -:- Mary $ Electronics -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:29:46 (EST)
______Mary M -:- Mary $ Electronics -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:03:33 (EST)
________Orlando -:- Wooppeedoo -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:44:45 (EST)
__________Mary M -:- Wooppeedoo to You Too -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:56:46 (EST)
____________Roger Drek -:- It's FOIA Time! Hello JW -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:07:10 (EST)
____Mizz Magnolia -:- Easy, Mel /ovah-simplified -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:55:03 (EST)
______L -:- Very Sexy Mizz..... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:05:00 (EST)
________Mizz Magnolia -:- L, Dahlin' -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:21:39 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Brian, premie posting rights -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:06:19 (EST)
__Jim -:- How about these rights, Mel? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:34:45 (EST)
____Runamok -:- Mel? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 11:59:17 (EST)
__Katie -:- Brian, premie posting rights -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:10:01 (EST)
____Mike -:- Can I say something? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:39:18 (EST)
______Prof Heinz Baked-Beans -:- I need you Syd Ney -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:03:34 (EST)
______Bobby -:- Can I say something? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:14:32 (EST)
________Katie -:- verbal abuse -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:38:56 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Real verbal abuse -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:54:40 (EST)
________Mike -:- I don't like civilization :-) -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:20:52 (EST)
________Runamok -:- verbal abuse and obscenity -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
__________Bobby -:- verbal abuse and obscenity -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:49:38 (EST)
____________Runamok -:- verbal abuse and obscenity -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:35:02 (EST)
________Jim -:- With all due respect, Bobby -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:49:20 (EST)
______Katie -:- Hell No! :) -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:17:19 (EST)
________Brian -:- Golly Gee, No! :) -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:20:19 (EST)
______cp -:- Can I say something? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:16:20 (EST)
__JW -:- Mel, Are You Consistent? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:16:05 (EST)
__Brian -:- posting rights -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:52:42 (EST)
____Mike -:- Superb, Brian! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:17:45 (EST)
____Runamok -:- posting rights -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 00:24:53 (EST)
____Mel Bourne -:- Thanks, Brian.... -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 04:34:59 (EST)

JHB -:- UK vs US Ashrams -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:40:39 (EST)
__bhell on earth -:- UK vs US Ashrams -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 23:38:52 (EST)
__ex-mug -:- UK vs US Ashrams -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 05:23:00 (EST)
__JW -:- UK vs US Ashrams -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:06:48 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- UK vs US Ashrams -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:54:59 (EST)

JHB -:- A Question for Premies -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:43:18 (EST)
__Zac -:- A Question for Premies -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:26:23 (EST)
____JHB -:- A Question for Premies -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:59:14 (EST)
__SHP -:- An answer from SHP -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:46:50 (EST)
____JHB -:- False Prophets -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:42:09 (EST)
______SHP -:- False Prophets -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:08:31 (EST)
________Zac -:- MJ's fruits -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:24:12 (EST)
__________JHB -:- MJ's fruits -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:01:03 (EST)
__________SHP -:- MJ's fruits -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:32:41 (EST)
____________JHB -:- MJ's fruits -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 19:35:53 (EST)
______________Helen -:- M as father and savior -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:24:00 (EST)
________________Liz -:- M as father and savior -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:10:49 (EST)
__________Helen -:- get thee behind me, Guru M -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:14:02 (EST)
________Liz -:- False Prophets -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:56:12 (EST)
__________SHP -:- False Prophets -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:42:41 (EST)
____________DUPEY -:- False Prophets -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:56:00 (EST)
______________JHB -:- False Prophets -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 09:02:35 (EST)
________________dupey -:- False Prophets -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 09:45:58 (EST)
__________________JHB -:- Misunderstanding -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 10:12:57 (EST)
____________________dupey -:- Misunderstanding -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 10:26:16 (EST)
____________Liz -:- False Prophets -:- Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:18:54 (EST)

Sir David -:- Rawat's lethal unconsciousness -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 08:57:51 (EST)
__Orlando -:- check out the new contest! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:21:21 (EST)
____Mary M -:- check out the new contest! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:38:00 (EST)
______Orlando -:- check out the new contest! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:44:45 (EST)
________Mary M -:- check out the new contest! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:56:07 (EST)
____Sir David -:- Later, but for now... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:42:34 (EST)
______John -:- M's philosophy -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:06:10 (EST)
________Mike -:- M's philosophy + 1 -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:21:21 (EST)
__________Diz -:- M's philosophy + 1 -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:46:24 (EST)
________Horny Toad -:- M's philosophy -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:04:01 (EST)
__gerry -:- Rawat's lethal unconsciousness -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:14:23 (EST)
____Happy -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:11:12 (EST)
______L -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:11:51 (EST)
________gerry -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:29:24 (EST)
__________L -:- Just Proves -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:38:34 (EST)
________Mike -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:55:03 (EST)
________Helen -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:57:46 (EST)
__________Helen -:- 'Better off without a wife' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:02:56 (EST)
____________Mike -:- uh oh, Helen -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:31:10 (EST)
______________Helen -:- uh oh, I'm blue.... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:45:56 (EST)
________________L -:- uh oh, I'm blue.... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:10:59 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- uh oh, I'm blue.... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:22:02 (EST)
________________Mike -:- uh oh, I'm blue.... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:23:31 (EST)
________________Mary M -:- uh oh, I'm blue.... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:12:30 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Posts that hit a nerve -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:35:58 (EST)
________________Sir Dave -:- Confounding my enemies -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:19:29 (EST)
__________________Bobby -:- Confounding my enemies -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:46:31 (EST)
____________________Sir Dave -:- Allow poetic licence Bobby -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:27:14 (EST)
____________________Robert -:- Cofounding my aminos -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:14:55 (EST)
__________________Helen -:- Confounding my enemies -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:39:30 (EST)
__________________bill burke -:- Confounding my enemies -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:46:28 (EST)
__Jim -:- What about HIS wife? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 21:03:04 (EST)
____Happy -:- What about HIS wife? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:20:35 (EST)
____Sir Dave -:- What about HIS wife? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:29:05 (EST)

Zac -:- The Last Gasp Tour! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:55:26 (EST)
__dv -:- As a recent ex, I'm going -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:04:01 (EST)
__Mary M -:- The Last Gasp Tour! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:41:02 (EST)
____Zac -:- The Last Gasp Tour! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:14:59 (EST)
______Mary M -:- The Last Gasp Tour! -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:47:39 (EST)
________cp -:- left long ago but -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 04:17:44 (EST)
__________Zac -:- left long ago but -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:09:53 (EST)
__________JW -:- Very True -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:19:14 (EST)

Bill Cooper -:- good feelings -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:52:53 (EST)
__Helen -:- good feelings -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:51:02 (EST)
____Happy -:- good feelings -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:52:04 (EST)
______bb -:- good feelings to you B.C.! -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:24:03 (EST)
________Helen -:- good feelings to you B.C.! -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:50:52 (EST)

JELLY -:- Peace Bomb -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:24:57 (EST)
__Brian -:- Peace Bomb, and other duds -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:39:19 (EST)
____JELLY -:- Peace Bomb, and other duds -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EST)

Archer -:- What is a PAM? -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 20:52:14 (EST)
__Robyn -:- What is a PAM? -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 20:58:57 (EST)
____HALIP -:- What is a PAM? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:07:55 (EST)
______HALIP -:- Just remembered... -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:10:23 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Just remembered... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:54:56 (EST)
______Robyn -:- What is a PAM? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:49:37 (EST)
________HALIP -:- No wonder... -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:40:38 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:36:31 (EST)
__Mary M -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:40:15 (EST)
____Jerry -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:28:31 (EST)
______JW -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:36:47 (EST)
______Mary M -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:39:42 (EST)
________HALIP -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:03:48 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:37:53 (EST)
__Helen -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:58:56 (EST)
____Runamok -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:04:19 (EST)
______*>*...Billbo -:- forest of imagination -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:15:42 (EST)
______Helen -:- Paragraphs within -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 16:27:56 (EST)
________Runamok -:- Paragraphs within -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 16:59:13 (EST)
__JW -:- 1 more half brain-dead premie -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 17:49:06 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 17:59:51 (EST)
______Mary M -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:11:45 (EST)
______JW -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:15:10 (EST)
________Mike -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:45:51 (EST)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Not so sure -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 00:31:25 (EST)
____________Sir dave -:- But hasn't Maharaji retired? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 03:34:42 (EST)
__________Jerry -:- The power of knowing -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:42:35 (EST)
____________Mike -:- Good point, Jerry -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:17:48 (EST)
______________Jerry -:- What do you think of this? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:05:03 (EST)
________________Jerry -:- Clarification -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:31:23 (EST)
________________Mike -:- Interesting perspective -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:37:52 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- Thanks, Mike -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:52:15 (EST)
__________JW -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:37:30 (EST)
____________Jean-Michel -:- One more thing JW -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:59:59 (EST)
______________JW -:- One more thing JW -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:28:04 (EST)
________________Helen -:- One more thing JW -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 16:58:17 (EST)
________________Jean-Michel -:- Premies=endangered species(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:40:20 (EST)
______Darth Vadar -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:21:01 (EST)
______Brian -:- Lost for 'this world' -:- Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 01:43:56 (EST)
____Mike -:- Yes... this says it all! -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:01:34 (EST)
______Archer -:- Brain drain -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 21:52:14 (EST)
________billdo -:- Brain sane -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 22:48:21 (EST)
__________Archer -:- Brain sane -:- Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 23:44:15 (EST)
____________aoa -:- (wrt) Brain sane -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 01:14:54 (EST)
____________bdo -:- Brain sane -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 06:53:07 (EST)
______________gerry -:- propaganda dynamics -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:06:18 (EST)
________________billather -:- The A team-Archer and Aoa -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 22:32:40 (EST)
__________________Jerry -:- Category 1 -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:49:37 (EST)
____________________bill -:- Category 1 -:- Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:21:25 (EST)
________Helen -:- Was it worth it? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:04:53 (EST)
__________Archer -:- Was it worth it? -:- Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:20:21 (EST)
____________Helen -:- Was it worth it? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:51:34 (EST)
____________Jerry -:- Was it worth it? -:- Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:35:04 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 03:37:46 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Brian & Everyone
Subject: Brian, premie posting rights
Message:
Hi there Brian,

I am writing this for further clarification on premie 'rights' to post here. This has arisen from your post in the thread below that has now disappeared, it included the following statement from you...

.. Premies may be ALLOWED to post here, but they have no guaranteed RIGHT to do so .

My understanding was that the basic rules for posting here were mainly....

1. No threats of violence to anyone.

2. No unauthorised 'outing' of contributors.

3. Contributors cannot use other contributors aliases.

Are there now other rules? If so, what are they?

Apart from this, I thought that anyone could contribute their opinion on the topic that the forum was set up to discuss irrespective of which side of the fence they are on (or even if they are still sitting on the fence!).

Recently, there seems to be a vibe from people like Runamok, Mary M and others that premies can post here only by the good will of site management, that this is an exclusive 'club' (cult?) for ex's only. This view now seems to now be endorsed by you, apparently, in your remark above.

Are you reneging on previous commitments to honest, open debate and argument on the topic that you have designed this forum for? Or is there an implication in your comment that at some stage what are deemed to be 'premie' posts may be deleted if you just 'feel' like it.

Personally, I have enjoyed participating in the vigorous debate on this site, although, as is well known, I do not agree with a lot of the views held here. I find the issues raised challenging and hope that I reciprocate by providing an equally challenging point or two myself.

I believe that the right to post here should be open and non-discriminatory, ie. there should be permission or the 'right' to post for anyone who has an interest in the topic, whether premie, ex-premie or anyone else (subject, of course, to the three basic rules). The fact that premies may post an opposing point of view shouldn't disadvantage future posting for them in an atmosphere of free speech.

Up until now, I have believed that the site management held a similar view to mine, so I am a little disappointed with the 'exclusivity' that now seems to be permeating your thinking as site manager, Brian

Forget about the 'premie' and 'ex-premie' rubbish we seem to get caught up in for one minute, and you will see that what I have said is not unreasonable.

Indeed, could I suggest another rule for instant expulsion?

'That any post containing obscenities that are obviously designed to intimidate other contributors be regarded as extreme verbal violence and result with the post being deleted and the poster being expelled'.

I do not refer to the occasional obscenity expressed in a post that could be regarded as 'colourful' in the making of legitimate points, but more to the kind of post that Gerry is inclined to make sometimes. I’m sure you know what I mean ! I think that a rule of this kind would encourage the more timid to contribute to this site.

For your response (and others, of course)

Regards
Mel
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 03:59:49 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel- thread crashers too??
Message:
Mel.
I have been on and off lately, but there have been some how- do- you- say...planted crashers blasting in and out with hip hop rap drivvil. They are not participating or expressing opposite views for debate or arguement-- these posters are just skateboarding in and out with nonsense to break up the discussions.

I think brian is referring to those mice.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 04:27:04 (EST)
From: YOU
Email: None
To: el Born / all
Subject: premie rights
Message:
?The Forum is an unmoderated collection of ongoing threaded discussions where ex-premies, current premies, and non-premies express their views on anything and everything.....?
there is alot of love slowly but steadily starting to
flow on this x site, maybe?,
yeah, just maybe, because the current 'lovers' are
posting here, not to defend anyone, just to keep the remembrance
that the love to be first felt must come from inside.
If some x has a gripe w/him, fine, leave him,
but let's leave the others out of it.
Remember 'Dudley', always doin' it in the air,
always tryin' to 'bong' the white cats, why blame him?
'premoids' are 'premoids', I personally want nothing to do
w/ them, but I know that he is not them and I love him and some close to him very much, and am very thank full to have the knowledge, the approach, to this lite within and I see it everyday, thank you, and I hope Memphis Belle is doing o.k.,,,, tiny.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:45:41 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: Forum
Subject: RIGHTS
Message:
I find this inquiry interesting. Not that I should be comparing this ex-site with other sites about Maharaji, but the Enjoying Your Life With Knowledge site says it has the right to edit any contributions that are posted. And I've experienced that they won't even display certain disagreeable posts. I think this site is much more liberal than allot of the Maharaji sites out there that permitt public posting. Now, I don't speak for the ex-premie site managers, and I know the inquiry was addressed to them, but I would like to see vigorious debate at the enjoyingyourlife site as well. I believe that the discussions on this site are very lively, and contributions are made from followers and non-followers alike, unlike that other site. The name of this site is EX-PREMIE.ORG while the name of that site seems to be more for those who are ENJOYING YOUR LIFE WITH KNOWLEDGE. People who have never heard of M/DLM/EV have posted on this ex site. My feeling is that anyone can post here given they follow the rules, and yes I know that's what the inquiry was about. What are the rules, or are there any new rules?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:19:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: YOU
Subject: premie rights - no way
Message:
Premies have no rights. It's quite simple really. You surrendered your rights at the feet of the living Lord. How can you be a premie and expect something when surely your one purpose in life is to serve Maharaji?

Why do premies want rights? Are you saying that this world has something to offer you, that it owes you something? Expect nothing except that which flows from the feet of Satguru Dev. And even that should not be expected but gratefully received when it is given.

We ex-premies are people of the world. You can't expect anything but grief from us. We will not speak the truth and will lead you away from the path of rightousness...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:40:09 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel & Volleyball
Message:
Hi Mel,

I don't have time to play volleyball this morning.

You'll never guess why. So I'll tell you.

Wonders never cease do they? One of the recent hats I've acquired in my 'professional life' is technical supervisor of electronic funds transfers. I just received the ACH Guidelines for U.S. Corporations. Lots of reading and interestingly enough some of it applies to your man.

I've requested any and all information concerning electronic funds transfers to corporate accounts outside of the U.S.

So dear, I hope I don't offend you with 'extreme verbal violence'. I'll try to wear my corporate professional hat when responding to your posts!

I do try to be egalitarian. But I've begun to wonder if your man has fooled you all and is really the 'Nacho, Nacho, Man'... I'd recognize those dance steps anywhere;-)

Take a chill pill and go watch 'RiverDance'.

Luv,
Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:29:46 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Mary $ Electronics
Message:
I've requested any and all information concerning electronic funds transfers to corporate accounts outside of the U.S.

This is interesting, Mary. Are you really in a position to find out about funds concerning M and where they're being transferred?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:03:33 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Mary $ Electronics
Message:
Jerry,

Yes. Albeit I just received the ACH manuals containing all the U.S. Corporate laws and regulations last week. As I was browsing through it I was amazed at the amount of information and for some some reason kept remembering a time when a PAM was telling me why we couldn't make checks out directly to M but to the sundry Corporations he was involved with.

I will be receiving the manuals concerning transferring of funds electronically to overseas accounts by April 15th. I think Interpol monitors many of the transfers to Swiss accounts. This would be another venue to research.

I'll need help as far as M is concerned. I've gleaned much from the Dettmer posts and am compiling a list of all corporations that it appears M is somehow involved with. Anyone that wants to help with information please do so. If one is more comfortable e-mailing me off-forum I certainly understand.

Mary
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:44:45 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Wooppeedoo
Message:
You are quite the sleuth, aren't you?
you will find out that.....ta dam....funds are being transfered!
by the way, does your boss know that you are using confidential information in this way?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:56:46 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Wooppeedoo to You Too
Message:
Thank You Orlando,

There is nothing confidential about the ACH books and the process of learning all the laws.

I just checked with my boss... he concurs.

Respectfully,
Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:07:10 (EST)
From: Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: It's FOIA Time! Hello JW
Message:
Oh, yeah!

It's time to contact the FBI and do a Freedom of Informatation Access(?) (FOIA) on Maharaji!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:55:03 (EST)
From: Mizz Magnolia
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Easy, Mel /ovah-simplified
Message:
Oh, Mel, honey, your problem has SUCH and easy an-saw. Let's pretend there was a party specifically for dawg love-uhs(you know, dog lovers), organized by dawg love-uhs and paid for by dawg love-uhs. All of a sudden these pesky li'l dawg hate-uhs duh-cided to crash the dawg lov-uhs party.

Now these dawg hate-uhs kept tellin' the dawg lovers that their views on dawgs was all backwards, ya see. Aftah all, dawgs will shit on the carpet (pardon my french!), leave hair evah-where, and chew up yor bess slipp-uhs!

The dawg love-uhs were good enuff to listen to the opinions of the dawg hate-uhs, but many disagreed. Undah-standably, they often got angry at the dawg haters for expressin' views that conflicted so much with their own.

To put it another way, chile, don't you know that you hafta be invited to a party and that to crash one is rude? Of course, crashin' IS excitin' and sometimes exceptable to the hosts anyway, which seems to be the case here. If not, the hosts nowadays reserve the right to throw you out on yor ass (thank you, Amy Vanderbuilt)

If you ARE invited to a party, it's extremely RUDE to make too many demands of your host/hostess, call them names, or disagree with they-uh politics. (Nev-ah discuss politics, sex, or religion with someone sharin' opposite views, anyways, honey!). Didn't yor mama teach you anything, chile?

Happy to help,
Mizz Magnolia
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:05:00 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: Mizz Magnolia
Subject: Very Sexy Mizz.....
Message:
you must be a southern girl.....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 18:21:39 (EST)
From: Mizz Magnolia
Email: None
To: L
Subject: L, Dahlin'
Message:
L,
Yesssss, dearie. I am as Southern as grits casserole and mimosas at a bridesmaid shower on a swelterin' June mornin'. As Southern as a handfull of red clay or the scent of gardenias.
Love ya,
Mizz Magnolia
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:06:19 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Boring
Subject: Brian, premie posting rights
Message:
Mel,

You fucking asshole shithead motherfucker pissant dickhead jerk off shit eating numbnuts asshole. Whoops, I said asshole already. Are you trying to get me banned?

Yawn...your putting me to sleep again and it's 7 AM in the morning here.

I have a suggestion...why don't you run along over to the little cult sites and ask them to let you post on their forums. Then you can gush over how wonderful fat ass is all you want.

So Mel, get a life, move on, get over it, forgive and forget, and of course, happy new breath, sleaze bag.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 10:34:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: How about these rights, Mel?
Message:
Mel,

My understanding is that, while Brian's laid out the skeletal rules confining discussion here he retains for himself the residual perogative to bar anyone who's obviously trying to simply fuck up the discussion. I can't think of any hosted discussion anywhere where the host forfeits that discretion. Can you?

But David's so right. Any talk of premies' rights is ludicrous in a larger context. Principally because Maharaji laughs in the face of the most natural, non-negotiable right we all should have enjoyed, the right for some accountability from our supposed teacher. As you know, many of us have tried in so many ways to exercise that right. Maharaji's only stonewalled us. In fact, he now apparently professes his own 'right' to do so and brags about his ability to ignore all criticism. 'Criticism', for him, must mean anything that challenges his comfort zone. For example, all the questioning email he's received from ex's. Note how none of that's mentioned in his gutless 'letters section' on his page.

And before you begin your inevitable defence of Maharaji's 'right' to not be accountable to his followers, remember that he himself once promised otherwise. Remember how, in the late seventies at least, he went out of his way to assure us that he would indeed read our letters if we sent them and, more importantly, would try to answer our questions as best he could. It was almost as if he was confirming a 'right' that we, his students, had. We had the right to know what the fuck was going on. That right naturally triggered a corollary obligation in Maharaji, that he be accountable to us.

What about those rights, Mel? What about that accountablity? When did Maharaji scuttle them both so that now no premie's entitled to an answer from him? When?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 11:59:17 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Mel?
Message:
Hey Mel, thanks for mentioning me in your post. You're the best PR I could get on this forum. I'm sure to gain a lot of prestige by your dissing me.

Seriously pal, are we making any sense? There's two points here. First, some premies (or perhaps just flakes) are posting a lot of nonsense threads that serve to make it difficult to carry on conversation (e.g., You, me and other newbies). These people are violating the recommeded procedure for posting under only one name, and in a most provocative manner- they are trying to create confusion). The other issues is less tangible but has to do with appropriate activity.

Since it is an ex-premie website, it's logical enough that ex-premies are here to do their stuff online. In my opinion, that is to attempt to document M's abuses and to socialize without the confining constraints of M and/or his umbrella-org du jour.

The point isn't that the rules have changed (altho Brian is the obviously the final word on this). The point is that some premies are rude and take advantage of us. While you may whine about getting flamed here, or having your rights limited, why don't you try and see it from our point of view? Premies who insist on proselytizing or arguing in favor of M are going to be distracting us from what we would be doing otherwise. It's a two-way street- the forum can evolve in different directions as far as how exes and premies interact, and premies have at least some control by what their demeanor calls for.

You're may be right about me in that I have a low tolerance for any kind of pro-M sentiment, but I do have some. I appreciate the need for debate but don't consider it a prime purpose for our (exes) online communication about M. When we left M, we basically left the debate.

The irony is that M will never allow or foster any kind of similar interaction as this forum. Likewise, premies will always be fascinated by any kind of info about M because of the amount they have personally invested in him. As ex-premies we don't have a taboo against discussing his personal habits so premies are always going to be fascinated by this site.

I think the idea that I have expressed often, that premies should think of themselves as guests, is a fair one. It doesn't represent a rule but an attitudenal guideline which may help. You are someone who has, on occasion, bogged down our threads with numerous posts for which the majority of people (exes) posting had already come to grips with your input on their own. I think it would be unfair to describe you as malicious (at least generally speaking) but it would be quite reasonable to describe you as rude.

I'm sure you won't agree, but I hope you'll take a look at it. If a group is talking and one person insists on changing the subject over and over again, it's rude!

Our netiquette is evolving. Generally, posts like this will get a dozen responses. It's stupid, in a way, for us to expend so much energy relating to the stated views of those who are not ourselves.

Please do think of yourself as a guest, it may increase good will all round. I don't think the good will can go as far as you might like it to. There is difference between a premie and an ex. It's premies like you who have a need to be on the ex-premie forum who want to define the difference as minimal.

When you became a premie, was that a minimal change in your life? I doubt you would try to say yes. Why try and say the differences are minimal?

A few exes are tolerant of M, and they are a minority. In fact, there's only one person I can think of on the forum. The tone of being ex-premies for the most part carries with it an implied opposition to M. Like it or not, it does. You may wish it didn't and that we would fit the mold that M tries to create (i.e., 'leave it), but the prevailing attitude here is 'screw that blood sucking cult leader'.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:10:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Brian, premie posting rights
Message:
Hi Mel -
Brian will probably have more to say about this, but here are my feelings on the subject. Brian's statement that:

Premies may be ALLOWED to post here, but they have no guaranteed RIGHT to do so.

has always been one of the guidelines we follow in running the site. It's not anything new. Actually NO ONE has a guaranteed RIGHT to post here if they do not post responsibly. Brian and I have always reserved the right to delete posts for other reasons than stated in the forum guidelines. This is a judgement call - it's not done because we 'just feel like it' - it's always thought about and done for a particular reason.

I believe that the right to post here should be open and non-discriminatory, ie. there should be permission or the 'right' to post for anyone who has an interest in the topic, whether premie, ex-premie or anyone else (subject, of course, to the three basic rules). The fact that premies may post an opposing point of view shouldn't disadvantage future posting for them in an atmosphere of free speech.

I think our views are similar here. We have never deleted premie posts because they expressed 'an opposing point of view'. We welcome responsible and thoughtful posting by premies who are trying to communicate - I think it's great that you and other people like you post here.

But one thing which I hope you and everyone will understand and accept is that the forum was set up in the first place to create a place where ex-premies could communicate with each other. In keeping with this, our first priority in making decisions concerning the forum is protecting the integrity of the forum itself (thus the rules about violent threats and using other people's names). Our second priority is to protect the forum for use by ex-premies. Our third priority is to protect the forum for use by premies and other interested parties. This IS a double standard, but we believe that it's justified by the purpose of the forum.

I thought you made some good points in your post, Mel (I know I didn't address all of them), and I'd be interested in hearing your further thoughts on the matter. And as I said, Brian will probably have something to add as well.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:39:18 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Can I say something?
Message:
Katie: The main problem I have with Mel's post is that MEL considers posts with obscenities to be '...extreme verbal violence.' A point that Mel has tried to make time and again to no real avail (because equating obscenity without threat as violence or potential violence is rediculous). I guess Mel would rather have a discussion with a dispassionate milk-toast.

Ah, but there's another problem: 'I' find posts that are pro-M, in any way, to be EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE! I consider those prom-M comments to be a VIOLENT ASSAULT on my sensibilities! So if Mel would like the obscenity stopped, maybe the 'tat' should be that nothing pro-M will be posted due to the 'violent' reactions it produces (nausea, headaches, dark-thoughts)...... OBVIOUSLY, I'm being fascitious here.

I understand where Mel is coming from, but how would it be determined if profanity was 'frivolous' or meaningful? Who would make the determination? I think the current forum rules are both meaningful and clear. The latter is most important because it makes the forum rules 'enforcible,' without any argument from anyone (IMHO).
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:03:34 (EST)
From: Prof Heinz Baked-Beans
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I need you Syd Ney
Message:
Sorry, Mel Bourne. Would you partake in an experiment for me and stuff yourself with a high fibre, high pulse diet and drink a bottle of cognac every day and seven bars of chocolate and also smoke 20 Marlborough each day?

You see, I want to see how long it takes for you to explode. This will be of great benefit to your master and to humanity.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:14:32 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can I say something?
Message:
'That any post containing obscenities that are obviously designed to intimidate other contributors be regarded as extreme verbal violence and result with the post being deleted and the poster being expelled'.

I think the thrust and meaning of Mel's statement is not about obscenities per se, but the verbal assault and intimidation that goes on here with some people, ex-premies and premies alike. Am I right Mel? I happen to agree with a lot of what Mel said.

Personally, I have felt attacked and assaulted on this forum and I've seen many assaulted in this way as well. My person was attacked, along with my ideas, but I truly felt real personal attack. Personally I would rather meet someone physically and fight it out physically, then be assaulted in the ways that have gone down on this forum. I wouldn't care if I got my ass kicked. At least I could put up a decent fight of it. I've never meant to hurt anyone in any enduring way but I sure have wanted to make my statement.

I think that some of the words that come across are a real form of abuse. I don't like to see abuse happen to anyone and I have always advocated guidelines to cover verbal abuse along with physical. There is a real difference between authentic expression of anger and targeted, derisive anger. I think authentic emotional expressions are great, I just don't like to see them displayed in hurtful manner. There are some people on this forum that go way over the line.

It's not about being milquetoast, it's about being civil.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:38:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: verbal abuse
Message:
Hi Bobby (the Hell, No! was not meant for you, BTW :),
You wrote:
I think that some of the words that come across are a real form of abuse. I don't like to see abuse happen to anyone and I have always advocated guidelines to cover verbal abuse along with physical. There is a real difference between authentic expression of anger and targeted, derisive anger. I think authentic emotional expressions are great, I just don't like to see them displayed in hurtful manner.

As you know, I don't like gratuitous flaming, ridicule, or personal attacks either. However, I've come to the conclusion that this is not a problem that can be solved by rules or guidelines (enforcement alone would be a nightmare, for one thing). As you know, Gerry and I set up a flame-free forum for people who were bothered by this, and almost no one used it.

I think, again, that flaming on the forum has to be self-limiting. I know of several people who don't read posts by people who usually post flames, and I know many others who refuse to reply to them. I URGE everyone to do this if this is a problem for them. I know it's hard not to react and respond when you're attacked, but it does seem to limit further flaming.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:54:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Real verbal abuse
Message:
Real verbal abuse is not ''fuck you'' or ''asshole.''

The real verbal abuse is so-called satsang, words used to recruit unsuspecting seekers into the cult, words used to keep them there and words used by mahahaha to extort, intimdate, and string along gullible people.

Real verbal abuse comes from cult apologists like Melboring. These are the true obscenities, not a few (or, in my case, many) cuss words tossed out by irritated Exes.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:20:52 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: I don't like civilization :-)
Message:
Bobby: I think 'civilization' is the root of all eeeeevil! So there.....

Seriously though, the part about a VIOLENT ASSAULT on my sensibilities could just as well be true, too Bobby. Listening to premies spout their pro-M, worshipful nonsense is a VIOLENT ATTACK upon me and my ideas..... so where do we draw the line? It's not a silly question, but rather something to think about.

Restricting personal expression is one of the hallmarks of cult-think (M's and others) and shouldn't be tolerated...... BUT, I agree there need to be a minimum of rules (like NO outright/implied threats, for example). Everyone should feel 'physically safe' when they visit here and should not feel like posting here would cause, or potentially cause, them 'grave physical harm or death.' The same doesn't necessarily apply to the intangible 'idea.' Ideas get beat-to-death here and that is as it should be (IMHO). Sometimes people get very 'passionate' about their responses (like when Mel called me a murderer, for example). No one stepped in to 'defend' me by saying that Mel had VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED my psyche (them's fightin' words!). Yet, this is the same 'protection' that Mel expects..... hmmmmmm double standard, don't you think? AND UNENFORCIBLE, too!

The pro-M sites are a perfect example of what Mel expects..... censorship. Yes, Bobby, I've seen the responses to some of your posts and, at the time, thought that they might be a bit harsh. But, how much of that was 'passionate' disagreement as opposed to 'violent assault' on your psyche? You would probably have to speak with those that were in the conversation to find out.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 16:39:22 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby, Mel and exes
Subject: verbal abuse and obscenity
Message:
First of all, the premies who post here get as abusive as anyone.

Normally the problem of 'flaming' is related to premies and ex-premies interacting. Other flaming has taken place but it's insubstantial.

Bobby, you have been attacked at times for similar reasons to premies: you don't want to reject M., and are satisfied with having moved on in your life. (In fact, I think you do respect the BM.) The vast majority of posting exes are opposed to M. and we actively seek to document his abuses. I personally see you as a premie who wears the name 'exe'.

The last time I posted to you, you posted to me, in effect, to leave you alone because we weren't going to do much but disagree. I honored that. In the meantime, you received dozens of encouraging posts in regard to your medical condition, personal encouragement far surpassing critical posts in number. In fact, you have a seemingly endless supply of well-wishing posts available to you at any time you post about your problems.

Couldn't you consider that as a counter-balance to when you've been criticized? I think it's insensitive on your part to side with Mel, but it's your bzns what you do. I doubt if any exe will post in agreement with Mel but you, and that's not a Machiavellian, backroom arrangement, IT'S HOW ALMOST EVERY EX FEELS! It's a consensual situation.

Miragey is a big fraud who ripped us off by lying and conniving. He took from the world to fill up his pockets. I want people to know that even premies and others don't.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 20:49:38 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: verbal abuse and obscenity
Message:
I stand by what I wrote. Truly I have a full plate these days and at this time cannot spend a lot of time crafting responses. I'm just going to complete and correct a few points here.

Katie and Mike: I think your responses were fair and while I don't agree completely, I thank you for them.

Runamok: I think you mischaracterize me. That's OK, but rather than attempting to understand you seem to 'runamok' with your own passionate views. I think you have long ago made your mind up about me and hold a strong bias.

You make the following statements:
I think you do respect the BM.....
I personally see you as a premie who wears the name 'exe'.


The point is that you have your own personal bias and project your own bias as part of what it means to be an 'ex'. I think you know very little about what I or some others believe or think as it doesn't seem you really read what I or some others have to say. I think there are lots of ex's, not just premies, that show up here who have very different views than you. For instance you have a lot of anger about Maharaji. I don't have a lot of anger. That doesn't mean I 'respect' him.

Clearly you don't like premies or welcome them in discussion. You consider me a 'premie who wears the name ex'. Obviously you dislike me enough to not really carefully read what I have to say.

Couldn't you consider that as a counter-balance to when you've been criticized?

I see that as a strange kind of statement. I honestly appreciate the support I get from others. I try to honestly consider all feedback I get and deal with it on an individual basis. I may not like some feedback but I try to consider it objectively and honestly. I certainly don't look to keep score or 'balance out' positive and negative feedback.

What I have mostly gotten from you on the few times you have posted directly to me have been biased and derisive remarks like last time when you laced into me about recollecting my experiences around India 71 and Ram Dass. You seem to be interested in attacking me, not fair consideration.

I'm not into taking sides and haven't taken Mel's 'side' any more than I take the 'side' of the ex-es. I happened to agree with what Mel said about groundrules against hateful and angry remarks directed against others. I agree or disagree with individual statements.

I don't see this forum as a club consisting exclusively of those who hate Maharaji. Lots of ex-es, even as expressed on this forum do not share the hatred that you seem to expect from ex-premies. Sorry, I don't fit your mold.

Miragey is a big fraud who ripped us off by lying and conniving. He took from the world to fill up his pockets. I want people to know that even premies and others don't.

I don't necessarily agree. In my view there are many other factors to consider. On balance, I was glad I was involved. It may be true that Maharaji got rich off the backs of others. At this point I think I agree with that assessment. But I don't know the degree of his culpability. Fraud or no fraud, I think there are plenty of people who on balance think they benefitted and certainly aren't 'out to get him' like some others here say they are.

I like and appreciate seeing a lot of the information presented here. I have posted a lot of information on my own. However, I think each of us should be free to make our own assessments. My process of sorting out is way different than your process. Each of us has our own timing and each is free to come to very different conclusions.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter for now.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:35:02 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: verbal abuse and obscenity
Message:
'I think you do respect the BM,' you quoted me as having said in a previous post. That is correct. The reason I think that, and the reason I have laid into you on occasion, is the huge amount of nostalgic grandeur with which you depict days spent with the Mission as something akin to the 'good old days'. With Ram Dass, many of us feel quite strongly that, in the most basic terms, he's a whore (or ex-whore, perhaps, at this point). I don't think that either of these viewpoints (disdain toward your nostalgia for the good old divine light days or for your high opinion of Alpert) on my part were out of the norm for the opinions of the exes who post here. Although, we don't relish in flaming (particularly exes) so much that everyone will chime in in agreement.

I've seen long threads of anti-Alpert sentiment and so have you. You threw in your little pro-Alpert comments with what seem like feigned innocence. I mean, talk of Alpert elicited the strongest of opinions from a dozen exes and it's happened more than once. Are you that dumb or do you just like playing it that way?

I realise it's no fun to be criticized, but I stand by what I said. You DO seem to be a premie who calls yourself an ex. Your statements specifically avoid any criticism of M. Did you ever think that I might have a critical view of M rather than 'a lot of anger' as you say? Can you clarify if the anger I have, as you see it, is purely personal or is any way objective, righteous anger as one might feel toward a villain or tyrant?

You wrote of me:
'Clearly you don't like premies or welcome them in discussion. You consider me a 'premie who wears the name ex'. Obviously you dislike me enough to not really carefully read what I really have to say.'
Actually, I read you as carefully as I think you warrant. You seem, in the post I am responding to, to carefully shy away from any statement which is directly critical of M. (You know, the guy who promised peace on earth and enticed his followers to give up their worldly path and follow him?) In fact, YOU ALWAYS TAKE CARE NOT TO CRITICIZE M!

Isn't it a reasonable conclusion on my part that you do respect M?
Isn't reasonable of me to call you a premie who wears the name ex? Why is that so offensive to you? You take it as proof that I 'obviously dislike you', but that is your spin on things.

I don't necessarily dislike premies, I just don't want to be subject to a premie agenda, i.e., avoiding gestures of disrespect for M or functioning as a support group for premies.

You didn't comment on my point that you take things in stride and consider the support you receive in balance to the criticism, although you did call it 'weird'. What I see is you come forward passionately to defend premies but you don't seem to have the balls to come forward and criticize M even in the most extreme areas where he is so obviously due criticism.

Now please, I'm being honest and it's not personal. That's how it looks. And I would like the forum to be a place where people can criticize M.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 22:49:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: With all due respect, Bobby
Message:
Personally I would rather meet someone physically and fight it out physically, then be assaulted in the ways that have gone down on this forum. I wouldn't care if I got my ass kicked. At least I could put up a decent fight of it.

Are you saying that when people 'assault' you here (i.e. challenge your ideas, even ridicule them) you can't put a 'decent fight' in defence? Why's that? Cat got your tongue?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:17:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Hell No! :)
Message:
Sorry, Mike, I just had to do that :)!

But to get to the point of your post, I didn't address that part of Mel's post because I also feel it's unenforceable, and I personally don't want to even have to make that call. I feel that the only way that profanity could be controlled on the forum would be to ban it completely, and we have no desire or interest in doing that (also, can you imagine the amount of work THAT would create?)

I know that some people find excessive profanity to be very offensive, and I am sorry if that inhibits people from posting here. I don't equate profanity with violence (probably because some of the people in my family couldn't say a sentence without using an obscene word - this stopped pretty fast when their kids learned how to talk, BTW), but I know that some people do. In my experience, profanity on the forum has been self-limiting - the other posters just get tired of it and complain, or they don't read or answer the profane posts.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:20:19 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Golly Gee, No! :)
Message:
I didn't address that part of Mel's post because I also feel it's unenforceable, and I personally don't want to even have to make that call. I feel that the only way that profanity could be controlled on the forum would be to ban it completely, and we have no desire or interest in doing that.

Mega-Dittos, Katie!! [snicker]
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:16:20 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Can I say something?
Message:
ya!!!!! i think that....
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:16:05 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, Are You Consistent?
Message:
I believe that the right to post here should be open and non-discriminatory, ie. there should be permission or the 'right' to post for anyone who has an interest in the topic, whether premie, ex-premie or anyone else (subject, of course, to the three basic rules).

Mel, I completely agree. To be consistent with these noble views, are you doing anything to try to get the enjoyinglife.org website, that not only excludes entries but actually engages in blatant discriminatory, editorial censorship of entries it does post, and of course doesn't even allow open discussion, to also follow those rules?

I would say the same for 'maharaji.com' by the way -- no open non-discriminatory posting allowed their either.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 02:52:42 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: posting rights
Message:
I've had time conflicts that prevented me from responding before this. Katie pretty much covered it in her post above, so I'll probably just end up sounding redundant. Still...

Are you reneging on previous commitments to honest, open debate and argument on the topic that you have designed this forum for? Or is there an implication in your comment that at some stage what are deemed to be 'premie' posts may be deleted if you just 'feel' like it.

First, we don't delete posts because we 'just feel like it' regardless of who posts them. And we haven't made any 'commitments to honest, open debate and argument' - only to keeping the site and forum online and usable by those ex-premies who benefit from it's being here. (And I only WISH the topic was referenced in all posts!)

Personally, I have enjoyed participating in the vigorous debate on this site, although, as is well known, I do not agree with a lot of the views held here.

Nobody is stopping you from participating. There's hostility directed at premies here, but the Forum Introduction warns about that. All of the ex's who post here have areas that they disagree with among themselves. There are premies who post here that I personally wish would wander off, but I only take action if the forum is in legal jeopardy by hosting threatening posts or if the person posting is obviously attempting to disrupt things.

I believe that the right to post here should be open and non-discriminatory, ie. there should be permission or the 'right' to post for anyone who has an interest in the topic, whether premie, ex-premie or anyone else.

Maybe there 'should'. But rights are derived from accepting a responsibility. Anyone who tells you different is running for office. Your 'right' to post here is guaranteed by YOU. By your having chosen to post responsibly in the past. I think everyone 'should'. Those who attempt to disrupt the forum disrupt it for EVERYONE - regardles of viewpoint.

You participate rather than disrupt, so I don't even have to read your posts - or agree/disagree with your views. You require no monitoring or babysitting. I wish that all premies who have posted (or will post) here viewed the forum the same way that you do - as an opportunity to discuss what has been a common experience for all of us (however we now feel about that).

The deleted posts in question were from someone who wasn't participating, but was posting gibberish. I see that person has added a post to this thread too. But there is at least some content. I don't understand the post, but maybe someone else does so I have no interest in removing it. Hopefully he/she has decided to use this forum responsibly too.

As for the appearance of a 'club' here - we try to error on the side of ex's first. This site exists for them, is supported by them, the content is supplied by them, and they get the support that they need here from each other.

Maharaji offers no support - only the opportunity for premies to support him. These people supported him, and he ripped them off. They contributed time and money, and he spent that time spending that money on himself. Now they feel angry about it, and they can voice that anger here.

Maybe someday you'll realize what the rest of us already had to face, and then you'll need that support too. At that time you'll find yourself welcomed into the 'club'.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:17:45 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Superb, Brian! (nt)
Message:
Well said, my friend!
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 00:24:53 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: posting rights
Message:
I appreciate you posting that the forum is primarily for exes. It seems obvious to us, but premies who post here often seem to feel that is THEIR site, undoubtedly because of the freedom that they don't find with M-related sites and activities.

I think I have developed a rep for being a 'heavy' with premies. I don't really mind premies, but some of them have been incredibly rude without seeming to be aware of it. Since some exes are too sweet or polite to tell anybody to fuck off, and since you and Katie have a responsibility to countenance premies in as impartial a manner as possible (or take it on yourselves to provide that service), someone has to get heavy some times, or so it seems to me.

I hope premies see your post. I have at times posted in defense of some premies, however I regretted it very much afterwards and have said as much. It would be nice if the premies were polite enough to warrant more defense.

I realize it is difficult for a premie to post here and that any argument on their part is met by a dozen posts debating them. On the other hand, a concentrated discussion (i.e., thread) can be completely disrupted by one or two premies throwing interference and questioning legitimate eyewitness accounts of M's abuse. They don't see that and so think they are martyrs or some such. It's kind of like the old filibuster.

Anyway, thanks for the post and all the hard work. Katie, too.

Katie, I'm going to email you soon.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 04:34:59 (EST)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Brian....
Message:
and Katie.

I don't envy your situation in some ways, but I applaud your impartiality in what must be difficult circumstances, and the effort you put in to maintaining this site. It takes hard work, integrity and honesty.

I guess that I, and most other contributors on this forum, seem to be able to afford the luxury of being more 'extreme', whatever our viewpoints. It's very easy to take things for granted.

Anyway....thanks again

Regards

Mel
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:40:39 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: UK vs US Ashrams
Message:
There's been a lot posted about US ashram life. I only had two spells in UK ashrams, Brighton in 1974 and a short spell in Leeds in 1975. Brighton was relatively sane, and Leeds had a bit of craziness. Anyway, does anyone feel US ashrams were heavier than UK ones?

John.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 23:38:52 (EST)
From: bhell on earth
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: UK vs US Ashrams
Message:
When ever I would travel to sunny old england in the 80's,
I would find myself (ooops talking like a premie) noticing
again and again how the english program security guys
were very harsh and like some kind of attack dog.

Not all of course, but I can vividly remember seeing them in
action against any deviation of the order with great cold
overreaction.
Probably some nut cases running the security operation that
are to blame.

So, those guys had to be in some ashram so at least one
ashram in england was the equivalent of many of the us
slave centers.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 05:23:00 (EST)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: UK vs US Ashrams
Message:
I lived at Luton and Hemel Hemstead ashrams, UK, in '74 -'75.
These places were hell on earth, total madness.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:06:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: UK vs US Ashrams
Message:
I can't really compare the two countries, but I bet the UK ashrams were heavier. It was my experience that the closer you got to M and his headquarters, geographically, the 'looser' the ashrams became and the less influence the Mahatmas and initiators had. I would assume, therefore, that the ashrams in places like the UK and Australia were heavier.

You could also see the variation among the ashrams in the US. LA (close proximity to Malibu) and Malibu ashrams had reputations for being very loose. (Would you say this, Zac?) The Miami ashrams were also 'loose' but there everyone pretty much was either a service freak or was ill and incapacitated. They either worked all the time or were bedridden. But the ashrams themselves were pretty loose.

But the farther you got away from 'headquarters' the heavier the ashrams tended to become, and the more sway the Mahatmas and initiators had in laying heavy trips on the ashramites. In places father away, the initiator visits were a big deal, but in Miami initiators were a dime a dozen and premies paid less attention to them.

In my experience of places I lived, San Antonio, Boston, Chicago and SF ashrams were strict, DC was kind of moderate (agree, John?), and Miami was loose -- and full of service freaks.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 15:54:59 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: UK vs US Ashrams
Message:
I can't comment on US ashrams but there was a distinct difference in Britain between London ashrams and provincial ones. In the provincial ones people were really being ruled by the ashram secretary, often with a rod of iron and some I lived in such as Stoke-on-Trent and Birmingham were very heavy places.

For example, in Stoke I was kicked out of bed in the morning when I was ill. I say 'kicked out of bed' but we had no beds as such and slept on the floor in a sleeping bag. Birmingham was less abusive and John Sheriden was an OK ashram secretary but it was very strict indeed and like being in the Army. Up at 5-30 am to sing the whole of arti in Hindi, no milk allowed (a mahatma's agya) and Divine Sales service in the evening after working all day at a job and finally bed around midnight after another full Hindi arti. Actually, I think the Army would have been easier.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:43:18 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Question for Premies
Message:
'Know him by his fruits' someone quoted below. This was something often quoted to distinguish M from all the other cults.

A question for premies:-

What are the fruits of 26 years propagation in the west apart from a some secondhand meditation techniques, a few thousand followers and a luxurious lifestyle? Can you think of anything that you could show anyone outside the cult so that they would 'know him by his fruits'?

John.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:26:23 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Question for Premies
Message:
I think I could honestly say that many of the premies I know are fruits, fruitcakes, nutjobs. So how does that saying work? Find the fruits and they will lead you to him. The Golden Banana?

By the way anyone been there?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:59:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: A Question for Premies
Message:
I never looked at that saying like that!!!:-) Of course, I should have known, we will recognise the true lord by all the total nutcases that hang around him!! So simple.

God does indeed work in very mysterious ways!

John.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 00:46:50 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: An answer from SHP
Message:
The quote about 'knowing him by his fruits' is obviously from a Biblical context, since that phrase is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, which has been equated to Knowledge by some.

According to St. Paul, as quoted from his letter to the Galatians
5:22-26:

'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence; against such
there is no law....If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another.....'

So that is probably the original list of the fruits of the Spirit.
And nobody has it down 100%. We are all still working at it, premies, non-premies, ex-premies, etc etc etc.

I see something after being away from here I did not see before.
There are probably premies who won't come near this site. There are probably ex-premies who won't come near this site. And then there's us, the ones who are willing to interface and attempt to communicate, some with hidden agendas and some with sincerity, on both sides of the issue. I have always believed that communicaton
is good, until the ripping and tearing starts, and then it's time to back off.

When we die, we don't have our resumes, worldly accomplishments,
financial reports and personal pecadillos engraved into our headstones...we have those things which describe our deeper truer nature carved into that rock as a remembrance of who we really were, not how the world judged us. Do unto others....

So JHB, I hope the information about the fruits of the Spirit is helpful.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 05:42:09 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
SHP, you got the wrong quote:-

Matthew 7:15-20

'Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing but inward they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth forth evil fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'

Regardless of what validity the words of the bible have, this is good advice. This false prophet has indeed produced some very dubious fruits, and the techniques of knowledge, the only fruit that could arguably be described as good, are not the fruit of this tree.

John.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:08:31 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
JHB,

The quote you posted is also about the fruits of the Spirit, not a contradiction. After all, he's not talking about figs, thistles or thorns, is he?

So what I am hearing you say is that those who do all manner of humanitarian service, etc etc, are the true followers. Maybe some are of them are, I am not anybody's judge. But the quote you used still does not define what those spiritual fruits are. It's a matter of common sense as I see it. And before the days of the above quote, there was a very wise king Solomon who was filthy rich, had wives, told somebody to cut a baby in half (out of context), and his name is still associated with wisdom even to this day. Go figure.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:24:12 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: MJ's fruits
Message:
Let's list 'em.

Deca! Amtext! The Ashrams! Divorces! Neglected Children! Molested Children! Bratty children! Individual financial ruin and mismanagement! Suicides! A little bliss after meditating then selfish, narcistic behavior the rest of the day! Neglected Parents and siblings! Pretty tasty fruits wouldn't you say.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 10:01:03 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: MJ's fruits
Message:
Very well put, Zac! I guess such a tree should be hewn down.

John.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:32:41 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: MJ's fruits
Message:
These are not exclusively Maharaji's fruits. He's not our 'daddy' with respect to each person being responsible for their own actions. You seem to have missed the point...Maharaji reveals Knowledge and we live our lives.

Whatever involvement is his to own in your list could probably be explained to an attentive, respectful, non-prejudgemental ear, but there aren't any here. MAYBE in his wisdom he knows this and that's why he doesn't bother to respond.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 19:35:53 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: MJ's fruits
Message:
SHP wrote:-

> 'These are not exclusively Maharaji's fruits. He's not our
> 'daddy' with respect to each person being responsible for their
> own actions. You seem to have missed the point...Maharaji
> reveals Knowledge and we live our lives.

Then why the adulation? Why do premies worship him so much? Why do they never criticise him? And why did he refer to himself as God, and greater than God, all those years ago?

John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:24:00 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: M as father and savior
Message:
Right on JHB. SHP is way off track in thinking that Maharaji is advocating independent thinking and moral action on the part of his devotees. M's whole trip is to make you a blank slate that he then can fill up. But he's never at the gas station when premies need him.
He has presented himself as savior, father, protector of the weary and weak. He has never responsibly presented himself as just a meditation teacher. SHP is ascribing far more intelligence to the Maharaji-devotee dynamic than really exists. If SHP wants to be responsible that is great, but M certainly has never encouraged personal responsibility or independent action.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:10:49 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: M as father and savior
Message:
Right on, Helen!

This must be why it takes an impossible number of premies to screw in a light bulb. They are unable to think for themselves especially on divine premises(ie when they are doing service) one wonders how they manage to keep a job. This is probably a problem. It used to bug me now I can only feel sorry for them.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:14:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: get thee behind me, Guru M
Message:
Amen Zac. Them fruits stink pretty bad. I don't see why premies can't get that. It's so obvious , but then again I have to remember they are hypnotized. I would say that M is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but he doesn't even try too hard to look benign, doesn't try to diguise what he. He knows what he is, he knows he's a fraud, that's why he acts so contemptuous of premies. He belittles them for being such fools as to degrade themselves by believing his bullshit.

I've stopped trying to engage with premies too much here, it just upsets me too much and seems like a waste. But I do hold out hope that they will see the light one day.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 18:56:12 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
I've heard children learn by observation. Do as I say, not as I do just does't wash. I've noticed that premies often talk about being blissed out, etc, but when you look at some of them they aren't. In fact many look quite ill. Quite a few female premies I've come across have eating and sleeping disorders and burnout.

The PAMS are often in better shape, although I haven't met many. I think they like the power. The one's they boss around often look supressed in a 'service' situation.

Drip, drip, drip, I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't a deliberate ploy on m's part to keep the buggers down and supress the masses to suit his life-style.

This all fits in with the lack of compassion that permiates this cult starting from the top. The people at the bottom of heirachy suffer while the cream say as long as I'm all right Jack!
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:42:41 (EST)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
Liz,

I'm hip to all the trips that devotees play. That doesn't impact me if I'm really paying attention to what I came to Maharaji for in the first place. Just like going into a classroom with all kinds of students, I didn't go in there to trip with the rowdies or be anybody's doormat. I came to get the information from the teacher. Other students can be distracting, but it's up to me to manage my attention.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:56:00 (EST)
From: DUPEY
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
IN THE CLASSROOM, IF MORE STUDENTS FAIL THAN SUCCEED-THAN WHO IS TO BLAME? A QUICK LOOK AT NUMBER OF PEOPLE RECEIVING

KNOWLEDGE VS. NUMBER OF PEOPLE STILL ACTIVE MIGHT BE MOST REVEALING
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 09:02:35 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: DUPEY
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
First of all, why are you SHOUTING?

Secondly, the proportion of active premies to total numbers who have received K shows M to be a very poor master, teacher, guru, or lord.

John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 09:45:58 (EST)
From: dupey
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
this is exactly the point i was making-i really don't understand taboo about using all caps--reminds me of my premie days--but will honor so as not to offend

anyway-my point being that as i look back on lifes of those practitioners i knew fairly well--they were all screwed up like me-except when it was time to put on premie cape
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 10:12:57 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: dupey
Subject: Misunderstanding
Message:
Sorry, Dupey, I misunderstood your post, I thought you were arguing pro-M.

Regarding capitals, it is a standard convention in internet communications that all caps means emphasis, or shouting. I see you've gone the other way now, and post in all lower case. But that's OK, I can handle it:-)

Anyway, welcome to the forum!

John.
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 10:26:16 (EST)
From: dupey
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Misunderstanding
Message:
no problem--just coming out in forum--have never been into conventions-am also new in computer world

see my post at top-all explained
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Date: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 17:18:54 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: False Prophets
Message:
Like Dupey mentioned if the students weren't doing very well why would you think the teacher was any good?

Methinks the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

By his fruits you shall know him.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 08:57:51 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat's lethal unconsciousness
Message:
After reading the comments by a premie on the thread about suicides below, I am pretty appalled by his/her remarks. He talks about Maharaji's insensitive ridiculing of the man who's wife was dying as saving the man from 'lethal unconsciousness'. I'm sorry but from time to time something I read on this forum makes me very angry, and this remark about lethal unconsciousness is such a time.

For several reasons. The remark about lethal unconsciousness is insidious in its design. It is meant to frighten and instil fear into people. It is meant to imply that there is something to be afraid of which only Maharaji can save you from. It is pure bullshit.

For we can turn the tables around here. Surely the remarks Maharaji made about the letter from the man whose wife was dying; those crass and insensitive remarks could be said to have come from Maharaji's lethal unconsciousness. I don't need to say any more, do I.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:21:21 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: check out the new contest!
Message:
Hi Sir david
please read my post below.
i have challenged anyone to come up with the said quote. if anyone does, i will give that person $50!
no kidding
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:38:00 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Orlando
Subject: check out the new contest!
Message:
Hi Orlando,

Check out my post replying to your post below.

I am sorry to realize you are just a schmuck to Your Man, otherwise, you'd be high enough up in the echelon to get the quote yourself.

Cheers
Mary
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:44:45 (EST)
From: Orlando
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: check out the new contest!
Message:
Mary,
Check out my post replying to your post replying to my post below.
Before claiming that someone said something, why not make sure first that it is a fact instead of a rumor?
PS: i am a schmuk because i i challenged a lie...so be it
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:56:07 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Orlando
Subject: check out the new contest!
Message:
Orlando,

;-) Check out my post replying to your post replying to my post below.

I've upped the ante!

Prove it.

Mary
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:42:34 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: Later, but for now...
Message:
Hello Orlando. I'm not particularly interested in Maharaji's quote as in the quote which the premie penned, 'lethal unconsciousness'.

If premies really think like this then it is most disturbing. When I was a fully fledged premie such sayings were rarely used or if they were, were written off as nonsense. Perhaps this phrase could be attributed to Maharaji. Perhaps not.

I meant to say that such extreme thinking that pens such phrases is nasty, to say the least. Do premies think like that these days? I also found it most distasteful to see this phrase used in connection to someone's suicide. We're not stupid here and I can see when a premie is trying to use someone's unfortunate demise to attempt glorify Maharaji and knowledge.

If a person kills themself, I don't think we can blame Maharaji but what we can do is show the character of the man as witnessed by people. And that character seems to be a million miles away from understanding ordinary people and what makes them tick. Without that understanding, Maharaji will continue to make people angry with what he says, whether people kill themselves or not.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:06:10 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: M's philosophy
Message:
Actually, the ex-guru used to tell any number of stories with the moral that relationships are not supposed to be the focus of our life. Remember the one about the guy who was so horny that he thought an alligator was a log so he rode it across the river to get to his lover? Or the one about the woman saint who gave her lover a bucket of shit to try to discourage him from being in love with her finite physical body?

These stories had the clear, unmistakeable message that energy put into other people was a waste of the most precious gift of this life.

That's why he encouraged the followers to dedicate their lives to him and not to their families, careers, etc.

It's his most fundamental philosophy, the most fundamental message of 'The Knowledge'. The Truth lies within us, not in The Maya - all the things we pursue in 'this life'.

If you go down M's path, you find that he makes what's 'within inside' sacred, and he makes everything 'outside' not sacred. So then of course relationships, careers, families, they all become secondary to 'that experience within inside'.

That's why he recommends that you don't go to 'events' to see old friends. Friends are part of the maya, the outside world that can never satisfy us.

I totally reject that philosophy as total bullshit!

I would much rather put my energy into relationships with other human beings then to go inside and follow my breath and believe that I am building my so called relationship with God.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:21:21 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: John
Subject: M's philosophy + 1
Message:
John: If we take M's argument about MAYA to its obvious conclusion, then premies shouldn't go to programs to see M, either. He's just MAYA (outside), too. :-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:46:24 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Mike, John
Subject: M's philosophy + 1
Message:
That was one for the printer, John. Succinctly expressed. This is the core of the premie/ex arguments: what really is of value in life?

Hey Mike, that's John's take +2. I got to +1 sometimes: how come if all 'worldly' things were maya, then all that service in 'Guru Maharaji's world' was so valuable? If 'the world' could let you down, couldn't the world around MJ do so too? And if it could, shouldn't we be recognising that, and if not fixing it up (I guess maya is by definition unfixable), then at least being a little sympathetic to those who got munched up in the process. Given that while you might be able to minimise your human relationships and career, you were being ENCOURAGED to run the risk of being part of MJ's world.

Hope all goes well with you both.

Diz
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:04:01 (EST)
From: Horny Toad
Email: None
To: John
Subject: M's philosophy
Message:
Remember the one about the guy who was so horny that he thought an alligator was a log so he rode it across the river to get to his lover?

Which way to the alligators! Long live the maya!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:14:23 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Rawat's lethal unconsciousness
Message:
Thank you for saying this Dave. I too was appalled by this premie's comments and even more appalled by the fawning and ass kissing BY EX'S! that followed. I was planning to reply to that when I got time. Actually I was hoping Jim would do a number on this one.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:11:12 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Orlando
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
Orlando,

in the previous thread on M-cult suicides, L. claimed M to have said at the Miami 1997 event, wrt the letter by a certain unnamed Denver-premie whose wife was terminally ill with brain tumor, 'We're all gonna die one day anyway, and you're probably better off without a wife'.

That was the actual quote according to L, you can check it out.
Personally, I see no reason not to believe L. There might a difference in wording, but I find no reason to distrust that this is more or less exactly what M really said. The audience laughed, and understood it as a joke, which makes it even more likely that L is right.

Now, L did NOT claim M to have said 'husbandS are better off without their wiveS', in plural and general terms, as you suggested. He did not put it in general terms, although he, at many occasions, has belittled the importance of human relations. But this is not the issue.

The issue is that his statement, publicly making a joke of a letter, which a devotee in full sincerety and pain has written to him, is extremely insensitive. There is no doubt in my mind, at least, that it clearly CONTRIBUTED to the suicide of that premie, and I hold him responsible for this. If you pretend to be an infallible God, a perfect human being, a realized soul - then you can't spit out all of your free associations in public, without assuming responsibilty.

I repeat what I said in the previous thread: M is so narcissistic and full of himself, that he is not fully able to understand the impact his words have on his followers, with detrimental consequences. He meant it as a joke, yes, sure. So much the worse, to make a laughing stock of a devotee.

Another thing is, that M really made a huge Freudian slip. He really revealed something about himself: That he wouldn't mind being without a wife. With all his marital problems. It was true about him, not about the devotee. That's what I mean by him being full of himself, not seeing others as human beings with the same value as he himself. He is absolutely, totally IN HIS MIND!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:11:51 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
I said I wasn't going to post anything more about this but let me try to clarify M's quote. I'm not going to say anything more about the person who took his life. M was talking about his wife, Marolyn, and her brain tumor. He then mentioned that he had gotten a letter from someone saying that their wife was terminally ill. He said something to the effect that he could relate because of what he had gone through with his wife (Marolyn). He went on to talk about marriages, and how he (Maharaji) was not going to go to any more weddings. He then went on to say you're better off without a wife anyway. And I don't think the followers in the audiance was in tune with him, because their laughter was bizzare, as someone mentioned in the other thread. I have often heard Maharaji put down marriage and relationships in-general. This was not the first time or the only time I've heard M make disparaging remarks about marriage or peoples spouses in-general. The video tapes are filled, from various programs, with these kinds of remarks. Anyone who has listened to M over the years, and most premies do not listen to M, they just go to the programs to have a good time and laugh at everything he says, knows that he has more than a few times put down human relationships. I don't believe I have to prove a thing to anyone. Those who know, know, and those who are in denial can stay in denial. I believe that there are many followers of M who are blinded by the beautiful experience senerio. These people are so into their beautiful experience that they would,nt believe M's abusivness even if they read it on paper, saw it on videotape, or heard it from M directly. They'd just laugh, and proberly say he really did'nt mean it that way, and go back into their stuper. I really don't care what others are saying about my post on the Denver premie who committed suicide. I knew this person and I know what happened. I was there!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:29:24 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: L
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
Thanks, L, I believed you the first time and really wish you hadn't apologized to that premie jerk. I was stunned by what that guy said, especially the ' he chose carbon monoxide over his breath' comment. The whole post was callous and lacked the ring of truth and sincerity to my mind. I couldn't believe the fawning and ass kissing that followed, as I said before, I really hoped someone would shred this guy's post line-by-line and expose it for the cold piece of work it really was, though thinly disguised.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:38:34 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Just Proves
Message:
that a so-called ex can be a lover also, not of maharaji but of sensitivity towards others. We are frequently accused of being ex-lovers, but in an eariler post I said I am not an ex-lover, I am an ex-follower of maharaji. I apologized because I don't know what TechKnow's experience is with the Denver premie, although I agree her, and I do think I know who she is, expressions and discriptions were calloused. I wonder how many premies would apologize to exes when they step on their toes? Or even better I wonder when is Prem Rawat going to apologize? I know, don't hold my breath. I don't want to fight or argue over my post, a person's life was lost, and while I didn't know him that well I believe more could have been done to support him in his time of need. If M cared about his devotees he'd have some kind of counseling service setup, or something like premie assistance used to be. But he has nothing, but knowledge, which is'nt enough. He's got followers that are addicted to drugs, homeless, suicidal, and even worst emotional problems, and he has nothing setup to support them. The Christian Church has food banks and clothing banks, so does the Jewish Community Centers, as do other religons. But EV has nothing. It's a very sad situation to me, and I don't even think M gives a dam.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:55:03 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: L
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
L: THANK YOU, from me personally, for taking the time to write about these things, especially since they were first-hand, direct experiences. I appreciate it more than you could possibly know and I'm sure that I speak for more than just me when I say this. :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:57:46 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: L
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
I can't imagine how Marolyn must have felt when Maharaji said that people were better off without a wife, after she had almost died. I can only imagine the hell of being married to the LOTU, someone so contemptuous of 'ordinary life' & human feeling.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:02:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: 'Better off without a wife'
Message:
Maharaji can say that he makes these comments to force people to 'go inside', to hurt people so that they go inside is ridiculous, so that his devotees are trying to realize god from a wounded alienated state of mind--the twisted Guru from hell has such a twisted philosophy of life it is ridiculous
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:31:10 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: uh oh, Helen
Message:
Helen: YOU just gave him the 'perfect' excuse.... 'I beat you up and abuse your psyche so that you will go inside and experience THAT place where beatings don't exist!'

Jeez Helen, you are making it too easy for him....snicker ;-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:45:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: uh oh, I'm blue....
Message:
It doesn't feel so funny to me today. I really do think the M trip damaged me a lot, it's really hitting me today, Mike. I just posted a post to Archer asking him if it was all worth it. I do not think it was. I used to have this belief that everything that happens is for a reason. The reason is to learn. Well I was attracted to M because I had very low self esteem and did not feel connected to other human beings. In fact I trusted noone, and the relationships I had were not healthy. SO--perfect timing to enter M. And what was the reason--the big spiritual reason that M came into my life?? The reason was that I was was fucked up. I am very depressed today.

I have been trying out a medication for pinched nerves and I am ready to throw it in the trash. I have an aversion to feeling out of control ever since the M trip, to the point where I cannot stand feeling the least bit spacey, and the meds have a side effect of spaciness. I am going to continue my 'empirical trial' of trying out meds until I find one whose benefits outweigh the side effects. But I am really feeling blue today.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:10:59 (EST)
From: L
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: uh oh, I'm blue....
Message:
Hi Helen,
I do believe in life as journey, and that the journey involves blue days, and pink days, and all other kind of color mood days. Unlike allot of premies I know who think you're suppose to be appreciative and blissed out all the time.

Blue days are alright, as long as I don't stay there too long, and they help me appreciate the pink days more.

You may already know these things but, try and Apple Cider Vinegar bath, with all the lights out, and a candle or two in the bathroom. At least this is one of the things that works for me. It's soothing, relaxing and great for pinched nerves. It also changes my mood. So, I'm not a doctor, just thought I'd share a suggestion.

So here's a joke that a six year old kid told me, it's clean and not about M;
Do you know why 6 is afraid of 7......
because 7, ate, 9

Okay bad joke, I thought it was funny, hang-in there Helen
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:22:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: L
Subject: uh oh, I'm blue....
Message:
Thank you L. I am one of those people who would definitely benefit from that bath and the candles. And I love that joke!! Thanks (:
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:23:31 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: uh oh, I'm blue....
Message:
Helen: Sorry to hear that you aren't up to my ....ahem...humor :-)

Seriously, I hope you feel better soon. I agree with L, I don;t believe that you really appreciate the 'up' days, unless you have a few down days (just not too many, darn it!)

I just poured a little of my 'lost dreams' on Orlando, in a post below. It's funny, I almost cried. But, L to the rescue again: Just because we wasted a few(?) years, doesn't mean we have wasted our entire lives..... there are still many more years to come and we will likely enjoy them even more than we probably would have. What's that? Mike said something 'good' about the cult? Yeah, after a 'downer' like M, EVERY DAY appears wonderful (by comparison)!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:12:30 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Helen
Subject: uh oh, I'm blue....
Message:
Dear Helen,

Sometimes a certain post we read turns out to be the 'Salt that hits a deep wound we may not have even realized existed'.

It takes time to recover from it all.

My e-mail's above, feel free to contact off forum anytime day or night.

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:35:58 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Posts that hit a nerve
Message:
Yes I think that what I had last night was a healing crisis brought about by reading about what a cruel and dictator like guru I had and seeing what was in my psychological make up that I would find that attractive in the least. And realizing that I still hold many negative beliefs about myself. I'm sure many of us here have the same struggles. Glad you are here Mary M. I really loved your 'fuck you' wretched honeymoon story!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:19:29 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Confounding my enemies
Message:
Hang in there girl. As you may know, I suffer from MCS (multiple chemical sensitivity) plus ME or CFS as you call it plus a load of other complaints and am often spaced out and in considerable pain.

What's the reason for it all? I gave up asking because for me it's just down to basic survival now. You don't ask such questions when you're just trying to survive. My sister re-iterated Woody Allen's saying, 'Life's a bitch and then you die'. And then she died.

Perhaps she knows the reason for it all now she's passed on. She told a medium that every night she carresses her husband's face while he is asleep in bed. So it seems that love does go with us when we leave here.

I enjoy outliving my enemies or at least confounding them when they see I'm still alive. I'm damned if I'm gonna give up now after 46 years of life. I want to see this through to the end because even though it can be damn difficult at times and I even wonder how I can continue - I do continue and am able to achieve much in little things which mean a lot to me.

I go to the school now every week and I look forward to it each week. I've been too ill to take my children on a holiday since they were born but I still hope to do it. I have to work around my difficulties. If life is difficult then you appreciate what you can do, even more.

You are more determined because you don't take the normal things for granted. And life does go on and you're still a part of it. And always can be.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:46:31 (EST)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Confounding my enemies
Message:
Good for you David. You seem better at getting things done than me. But I'm working on it. I'm sorry for your physical problems and pain.

I don't agree with that statement 'Life's a bitch, then you die.' Too cynical for my taste. And I'm not into 'outliving my enemies' or 'confounding my enemies' per se. However, I too am into continuing on through the obstacles. I have purpose and an inner daemon.

With these latest turns I have a hard time seeing too far ahead. I gotta make these steps through this passage of physical trial.

Best wishes, Bobby
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:27:14 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Allow poetic licence Bobby
Message:
I was waxing lyrical. In truth I have no enemies to speak of. I'm too soft to hold grudges and forgive easily.

Thanks for your kind words. I think you're being brave in your circumstances and wish you the best.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:14:55 (EST)
From: Robert
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Cofounding my aminos
Message:
Hi Bobby,

Wishing you best of luck and buona fortuna with your treatments, meds and health in general.

Hang in there, Robert
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:39:30 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Confounding my enemies
Message:
Yes I have come to appreciate the 'little' things like those caresses that are so sweet. I know you struggle every day Sir D, and I admire your strength. Thank you.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:46:28 (EST)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Confounding my enemies
Message:
You not only achieve much but you have a legacy of
terrific postings and great insight.
I don't usually post directly to you because I frankly was
marvelling at you many times.
Well now I have let the cat out of the bag.
You deserve your SIR title.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 21:03:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: What about HIS wife?
Message:
Just imagine someone reminding the fat, slimy prick about this comment when Marolyn had her embolism.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:20:35 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What about HIS wife?
Message:
I agree, Jim.

When I wrote my posts about M's Freudian slip (one above, and one in the thread on M-cult suicides), I was not even AWARE of the fact that Marylon too had a brain tumour. That makes his comments even worse.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 08:29:05 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What about HIS wife?
Message:
Good point. I read here somewhere that Maharaji was completely freaking out when Marolyn was in hospital and was climbing up the walls. But let's face it, most five year old children have more emotional maturity and understanding than the Fraud of the Universe.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:55:26 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Last Gasp Tour!
Message:
So MJ as predicted is planning a Summer Tour of North America to keep the faithful hangin on. Or he is just floating this to see how long it takes to get on the X page. How fun would it be to run a Tee Shirt and Hat concession outside the events. Ya know compete with the trinkets.

Tee Shirts with: The X page is more Fun!
Maharaji- Leave my wife out of this!
'Just one thought can take you away'- GMJ
Monica Who?
A shirt with all the posters names on it.

Jeez, I gotta get to work, You guys get the idea.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:04:01 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: As a recent ex, I'm going
Message:
to the nearest program- this is going to be fun...
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 09:41:02 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Zac
Subject: The Last Gasp Tour!
Message:
Hi Zac,

Is he coming to Gainesville, Florida?

If so, I think I'll track down some 'Bikers for Christ' and invite them to meet 'the Man';-)

Now that would be what my dear granny would deem, 'Stirring up the pot'!

Perchance should we warn M to watch out for leprechauns?

Luv,
Mary
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:14:59 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: The Last Gasp Tour!
Message:
Hi Mary- I've liked your posts. My information is sketchy. But I think we're looking at public programs in smaller venue's maybe some that haven't had a program in a while but places where there are enough premies to pull it off. I've wondered recently reading the page why many premies who left long ago read and post. Is it for resolution? I know it's nearly impossible to talk to anyone about this who hasn't gone through it. Or is it just plain fun? What's your take on it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 19:47:39 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Zac
Subject: The Last Gasp Tour!
Message:
Hello Zac!

All of the above!

There are so many reasons I decided to dive right in:

It is quite cathartic.

Old hurts that I had suppressed quite deeply have come bubbling up to my consciousness and my motto for the past 13 years in such situations is 'Let the Healing Begin.'

I enjoy this forum and would like to think we can make a difference.

Oh and lest I forget, my grand Irish uncles and aunts still remind me that Nellie's watch was bamboozled out of me by a charlatan;-)In London, England no less!

Most important of all.... I care.

Luv,
Mary
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 04:17:44 (EST)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: left long ago but
Message:
only recently became a card carrying ex. It was this forum that helped me identify some of the subtleties (SP) of the withdrawal symptoms.

Up untill the time that I started reading the forum, I had only vaguely formulated what was bugging me about the trip and premie labotomy thinking.

I was not IN for many years but only became OUT since connecting to the forum.

This in-between state is a common thing in the people around me that have recieved K. It is these people that are benefitting from reading the forum.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:09:53 (EST)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: left long ago but
Message:
Thanks guys! It is amazing the effect M and his fairy tale have had on people.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 13:19:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Very True
Message:
This in-between state is a common thing in the people around me that have recieved K. It is these people that are benefitting from reading the forum

I think this is very true. I just started sharing emails with a person I knew in the cult 20 years ago. This person hasn't really been to a program or practiced meditation for a good 10 years, but has always held onto this sacred belief in M. It was only reading this forum that got this person to examine the fact that 'automatic' and 'magical' thinking was still going on.

Even though I left 15 years ago, and worked through a lot of this stuff back in the 80s, it wasn't until I said it outloud that it became clear what had really happened.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:52:53 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: good feelings
Message:
I've been having troubles with my isp here and haven't been able to get onto the net for a few days. So tonight I just sat here and went through the threads with a couple of whiskeys. Its brilliant, I've never met any of you guys and yet there is so much in common and such a feeling of closeness from common experience. The words Milky Cole were like Dr Who's tardis and I felt myself transported back to the seventies, and all that bullshit that Milky fed us. And then theres the thread on Yoganand. That guy had a really powerful effect on me and I often wondered what happened to him, he was a really beautiful person.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 14:51:02 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bill Cooper
Subject: good feelings
Message:
I love you too, man!!! No offense to ya Bill but everything seems beautiful to me when I've got a few whiskeys in me-- :P
Seriously I know what you are saying--this is a great bunch of human beings here
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:52:04 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: good feelings
Message:
I certainly agree. I feel like I have lots of new friends, both open and intelligent.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:24:03 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: good feelings to you B.C.!
Message:
Where are you located BC?
You were in asia before. Still there?
Here is a shot lifted in your direction!
bb
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:50:52 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: good feelings to you B.C.!
Message:
Now I'm confused about the Bill's. Bill Cooper and Bill who posts under a zillion names. Which is which?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:24:57 (EST)
From: JELLY
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Peace Bomb
Message:
Just read the transcript of the 'Peace Bomb' satsang. Does anybody know what language this was spoken in?
If I had been there to hear this speech I would have been a devout premie. I know of no 12 year old who can speak like this for even a third of the time and I have met some supposedly brilliant kids.
It is eloquent and powerful (even if somewhat disjointed) but to imagine a child saying this is the most powerful image to the extent that the wonder of it would have been overshadowed the actual words or message.
I feel really sad for this little boy who must have had such extensive brainwashing and had to do so much work when he should really have been playing and being naughty along with other 12 year old children. Did he understand what he was saying or did he have to practice for days to get right?
Was his father also called 'Guru Maharaj Ji'?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:39:19 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JELLY
Subject: Peace Bomb, and other duds
Message:
Just read the transcript of the 'Peace Bomb' satsang. Does anybody know what language this was spoken in?

My guess would be Hindi.

I know of no 12 year old who can speak like this for even a third of the time and I have met some supposedly brilliant kids. It is eloquent and powerful (even if somewhat disjointed) but to imagine a child saying this is the most powerful image to the extent that the wonder of it would have been overshadowed the actual words or message.

Sant Ji Maharaj had 3 older brothers and was surrounded by devotees of his 'Satguru' father. Where you and I were read children's books or watched children's tv shows, he was told these stories and given satsang all of his life. He traveled with his father, who used to have him get up and spout this garbage onstage to cause curious crowds to gather.

Would it really amaze you to hear a 12-year old westerner recite children's stories that he heard growing up? He would have to be a complete vegetable to not be able to recall them. He will teach his children them by memory when he's an adult.

Maharaji's speech is a testiment to both self-deception and a child-like faith in the divinity of a father (also called 'Guru Maharaj Ji') who had died 4 years earlier. That faith was strong enough to cause him to mistakenly state that:

* There would be no guns - by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace.
* There would be no movies - by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace.
* Even nature obeyed him - by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace.
* He would out-rule every other king who had ever lived - by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace.
* He could ensure that those who ignored him (a nice little threat) would never get another human body - by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace.

We all bought into these words (for some reason). They weren't true then, and they aren't true now. There was nothing special about Maharaji then, and there's nothing special about him now.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EST)
From: JELLY
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Peace Bomb, and other duds
Message:
I suppose you do have a point... a 2 year old I know can recite, word for word over 20 nursery rhymes and editorialise their merits in between.

It was clever of his father to have used him in this way and also extremely cruel. When you're taught to believe that you are god (omnipotent, omniscient and omni-present) what earthly creature can tell you that you're not. He, sadly, has no hope.

When our parents do an increadible job of screwing up our minds we have the option of going to therapy with a good chance of sorting ourselves out. Who is good enough to be therapist to god incarnate? But then, why would he want to change?
Why would people do this to their children and why would 'god' do this to his 'children'?
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 20:52:14 (EST)
From: Archer
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is a PAM?
Message:
Can somebody please tell me what PAM stands for?
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 20:58:57 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Archer
Subject: What is a PAM?
Message:
Dear Archer,
PAM = People Around Maharaji :)
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:07:55 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What is a PAM?
Message:
It's a brand of a kind of american pâté as well, isn't it ? :-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:10:23 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: ROBYN
Subject: Just remembered...
Message:
it's not Pam, but Spam -- as in Serious Premies Around Maharaji -- isn't it ? Anyway, it tastes digusting.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:54:56 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: HALIP
Subject: Just remembered...
Message:
Dear HALIP,
God this is to funny! Spam IS NOT pate, see I told you we don't have the right keys to type that.
When I was living with Jade, my youngest daughter's father, his mother use to send care packages of books and spam and another canned meat, I think it was corned beef hash. It was always a big race between myself and Jeff to get to the cans of meat that were surely in the box. If he got to them first he would keep me from them if he could and cook some up right away in a frying pan. If I got to them first or anytime before he had fried them all up I would feed them to the dog. I called them dog food, they looked and smelled like dog food but I bet they weren't good for the dog either, to much salt I imagine! :)
It is almost 3am here, thanks for the middle of the night laughs Happy and living in Paris! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 02:49:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: HALIP
Subject: What is a PAM?
Message:
Dear HALIP,
'kind of american pâté'... :)
I don't think so but then I'm not a big pâté eater! :) We don't even have the right keys to type that word! :) Can you tell I am laughing. It is a spray oil used for cooking though, to funny, thanks dear.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 17:40:38 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: No wonder...
Message:
it tasted awful on my baguette !

Dear Robyn,

Oh well, I guess you know now what I was fantasizing about during all these long years in the states ! You can take the French out of France, but never France out of the French, and food is definitely ZE thing one misses sorely : the pâté, the saucisson, the crème brûlée, the cassoulet, the chèvre frais, the baba au rhum... The funniest thing though : I just got back from eating out with a friend and I had, for dessert... apple crumble -- spelled and pronounced that way. That's mondialisation for you (what is the word in english for it ? Global something...)

A bientôt !

Happy and well fed in Paris
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:36:31 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
Here is a wonderful pile of crap that I've received from a person I know and who's calling himself a 'premie':

As I said in the opening letter I wasn't going to respond and I did. I
am not trying to give you anything rather I wanted to share my feelings.
You know as well as I do that to enter into a debate about what we both
know and understand would be redundant.What would it serve? Bottom line
is you came alone in this world, you walk alone and one day you die
alone.What you see and understand is yours to enjoy.You want to see the
differences I prefer to see what we have in common.Debating will not
resolve or change reality. You live and I live by the same cause.You
were taught and I was taught by the same teacher. You show your
gratitude your way and I will show it mine.You exist as an individual
regardless of what you may think of M and his personal life His
knowledge is real.You have dismissed the Master and now you want to
debate.I don't want to debate, I have no doubt about what I have
realised with Knowledge.I practise and I enjoy His company. You
obviously don't.I know of a lot worse company I could be keeping in this
world.I've kept it and it was a nightmare to live. My father used to say
'In this world you become the company you keep.' My father was right.The
question is what company am I in when I'm alone? Meditation puts me in
touch with that company I was looking for when I heard about
Knowledge.The credit for that Knowledge as far as I am concerned belongs
to the one who showed me and thats M to me.Anyone else doesn't matter to
me anymore because what I was looking for I found within me.It stands to
reason that if its within me its within everyone. The discovery depends
on the intensity of the longing within the individual. Not everyone
wants to be on this journey of self knowledge. Not everyone is sincere
when they ask for Knowledge. You Know this you were an instructor,
surely you must have seen this. People come to M. with a lot of
different ideas about what is real.When they receive knowledge they try
to compare it to what they know instead of accepting it for what
knowledge is.We are dust without this breath.Is that not enough of a
clue to you that all the rational thinking in the world will not change
that fact.Why are you wasting time and energy debating reality why not
just go to reality and be there instead.Have you surredered yourself to
perpetual doubt? That you need now to debate Knowledge.Knowledge implies
knowing not debating.I've gone mushroom picking in the woods and have
gotten lost without knowing I was getting lost while picking them.Until
finally when I realised it was getting late and I couldn't find my way
back home.Panic struck. I didn't know which way to turn. Luckily for me
the people I was with knew thier way around and found the path that lead
us out. Had I been alone in those woods I would never have gotten
out.Its them same way in this life you go out in the forest of
imagination picking up Ideas and in the process get lost then
confused.Condsider me just someone like you exactly like you.Alive in
this time and wanting to be at one with myself.Not being filled with
questions and doubts but fulfilled with the feeling of contentment.M
still gives me that. what have you got?What fills you? I Know you are
french and the french a very intellectual in a snobish kind of way they
are a very rational kind of people. Perhaps your influences are the very
reasons for your having so many questions. But shouldn't you have
resolved those questions before you accepted a Master in your life? You
are not dumb.You undurstood enough at one point in your life to seek out
a master.Now that you found Him you doubt Him? You judge Him? You even
publicly crticise Him.Still He has not shut the door to you.Still you
can go inside and be with Peace.Instead of debate, meditate it will do
more good than anything you could say and the same for me.WE are Human,
lets realise it and get on with living the experiemce of our lifetime.
Its our chance to live at this time. I don't know about you but I know
for myself that Maharaji is the one person who can inspire me to
continue on the path of Knowledge.What he does in his personal life is
personal not my business unless he chooses to let me in on it. I do the
same my personal life is nobodys business but mine. And I value my
privacy just like you.If you are loking for a friend I can be a friend
but if you are looking for debates ,you will have to look elsewhere.
Debates bore me, Give me the truth instead. And I don't mean true gossip
or chit chat. I mean true experience of the life source.True
realizations.What one gets when one practises knowledge?Has it become
difficult to allow yourself to sit and be with yourself.Do you find
yourself eager to be in that place within where its peaceful or do you
find reasons not to. Its your time. Spend it consciously.Be a wise
investor. Bank where you get the greatest yield! You have heard all this
right ,you probably went around speaking very wisely yourself. What
happened to all your wisdom it didn't just disappear I,m sure.History.
The history of the masters should be clue to you on how to receive a
master. Thier value to us is immeasureable.My master will forever remain
my Master because He will forever remain the one from whom I received
Knowledge.Simple as that.And all the criticism in the world can not
change that fact.Now whatever He does apart from reveal Knowledge is
none of my business just like what you do all day is none of my
business.But if I hear someone is getting beat up and screaming for help
then it becomes my duty my obligation to help that person. Its the human
thing to do and in some countries like mine it is against the law not to
help. So thats why i wrote to you.Because you had the priviledge to
serve so closely to M. you had access to information that few people
have.And you know why.Imagine yourself trying to do a service with
people like yourself helping.Would you have confided in someone like
you.M does.He has to work with those who present themselves.We know that
we are not saints don't we? We are human and are for the most part
extremly ignorant and naive, So we have a lot to learn.He is also Human
and carries on a very human existence and he is doing a very good job of
it as far as I can tell.So this web site is your way of screaming to the
world. Your way of engaging others in debate over something you know,
cannot be deabated. Your cry of distress was what I heard.This what you
are doing is the last thing in the world you thought you would be doing
when you received Knowledge.Unless I'm completely wrong and you are a
total hipocrite which I don't think is the case.You are who you are and
you need to grow.So we are all still in the same boat.I trust the
captain you want to mutiny.Well we know who the winner will be here
don't we. TIME. Time has us all.Fill this time with Knowledge and the
company of the master, Thats all that really counts. Adios, A.


I've tried to engage in a discussion with him, we've exchanged a few emails,
I've asked him some hot questions he never answered to (like what HE thinks
about Jagdeo's case, and some other sexual abuse stories I told him), and
this is finally what you can get from a half brain-dead semi-conscious person.
What a sad story.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:40:15 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
Jean-Michael,

Your friends missive reminds me of a 'slave' mentality.

Perhaps we should clue him in that the slavery was abolished in this country. I know the caste system is still enforced in India.

I'd recommend he go and live there with his Master.

I wonder if he/she realizes the shackles he/she is wearing?

Let Freedom Reign!
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:28:31 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
I wonder if he/she realizes the shackles he/she is wearing?

I have to confess. Just because I'm free of M's shackles doesn't mean I'm not bound by others. M was just a link in the chain. This person whoever he/she is has apparently made his/her bed and is happy sleeping in it.

Sometimes I feel that life is short and who is it that realizes their dreams before the curtain falls? If somebody has decided M's good enough for them for the short time they have, fine. Who gives a shit? Anybody who comes across this site and isn't inspired to jump ship can just keep sailing away for all I care. As far as I know, they're happier with M than I am without him.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:36:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
It's one thing to say following knowledge makes you happy and you want to do it, despite all the evidence that this premie obviously chooses to ignore (because it's not any of this premie's business -- hello???), but it's another thing when the belief system is so fragile that this person has to talk to JM in this completely condescending, preachy fashion.

When I read that letter, which sounds psychotic to me in the way it rambles, I see a total put-down of J-M coming from this attitude of spiritual superiority. The premie can't give any validity whatsoever to JM's viewpoints because that would bring his or her own belief system under scrutiny, and as a premie you can't do that and remain a premie for very long. And the feeling of spiritual superiority over non-premies, and especially fallen ex-premies, is one of the 'gifts' you get when you are in a cult. Unfortunately for them, it's also one of the weights that keeps someone submerged in the cult.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:39:42 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Jerry
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
>As far as I know, they're happier with M than I am without him.<

Perhaps. However, can an automaton experience happiness?

I've read such rote messages before.

Cheers;-)
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:03:48 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
Salut, c'est moi !

Yes, we're born alone, we die alone, he/she's right... BUT we do not walk alone ! This I-Me-Mine mentality that most premies have make me sick. Beside themselves and their Master, it seems no one exist. It's pathetic.

A plus !

Happy and living in the same town as you
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:37:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
Pathetic, IMO.

What a sad and depressing perspective on life.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 11:58:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
OUCH that letter gave me a headache. So many words yet says so little!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:04:19 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
so many words.. so few paragraphs. Do paragraphs have something to do with the mind, or is it really supposed to be all under one subject?
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 15:15:42 (EST)
From: *>*...Billbo
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: forest of imagination
Message:
JM!
Why you old 'french''very rational''intellectual''snob'!!

Egad JM!
This person says you and they are 'alive at this
time to be one with myself'!

Are there two JM's?

Naughty you! 'you judge him' 'you even publically criticise him!'

As an instructor, maybe you could understand the logic stated
'M is the one person who can inspire me to continue on the
path of knowledge.'

What about the two halfs of the premie? Cant they convince each
other? Constant satsang opportunity!

I think there are THREEE people inside. Me Myself, and I.
Talk about your holy trinity!
So when that premie realises that it isnt just trying to
be one with myself, wait till he finds out there is still
one more to merge with. Even MORE reason for the master.

When will he ever get time to merge with the master?

So busy with himself!

JM you are not what the blind person said (as you know)
but you are the most responsible and courageous
of any that ever spoke to me about knowledge.

I know m would be furious at that comment. But, the courage
and responsibility he insists he has shown is based in
confusion. So, it doesn't add up like he want's.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 16:27:56 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Paragraphs within
Message:
Yes I guess we can't be bothered with punctuation as a kindness to the reader when we are absorbed with ourselves inside ourselves!!! That would infer two way communication and this is all about that inner experience within the in of the inside self!!!
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 16:59:13 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Paragraphs within
Message:
Rather than being a mere case of lack of grammar, it's like it was scientifically devised to give you a headache. We all skip out on grammar posting so informally, but that post was just pretty hard to read before the indentations were deleted.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 17:49:06 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 1 more half brain-dead premie
Message:
We are dust without this breath. Is that not enough of a clue to you that all the rational thinking in the world will not change that fact?

Why sure it is.....ahem...thank you very much that makes so much sense.

The credit for that Knowledge as far as I am concerned belongs to the one who showed me and thats M to me. Anyone else doesn't matter to me anymore because what I was looking for I found within me.

Kinda sums up the premie trip. Gives me the creeps and it's kind of sad.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 17:59:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
I've answered to his email, and here is what he answered me.

You are right ,you need to go your own way. Ignorant people like myself
NEED to follow the way of a Master. On our own we just get lost again
and again.WE need someone who will take the time to guide us through
this journey.I've been lost, don't like it.I'm glad there is always
someone there to remind me of what is important. You obviously don't
need anyone, you have it all. So go ahead enjoy your life.You arrived
where you are in life on your own let others do the same don't become an
obstacle for the human being who seeks and needs the Master.Why don't
you just drop it. Leave knowledge, leave the master, leave the company
of premies altogether.No, you can't so this is how you continue to be a
part of His world by setting yourself up as the voice of dissent.Now you
are an instuctor of a different sort. You have no one to answer to no
one is above you no one to direct you. You are on your own. Fine.
Goodbye , chow, arriverdecci.Only time will tell if the choices we make
is the right one. Have a good time. A.I don't need friends I am
one.


Is this premie really alive, or in a semi-coma, only aware of his breath?
PS: he didn't use ANY ponctuation. I haven't removed anything.
And this person is really a lovely person.....
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:11:45 (EST)
From: Mary M
Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
I wouldn't give up on this premie yet. The anger is controlled but discernable in his/her reply. I consider that a sign of a life yet to be salvaged from the flotsam of his master.

Here's a quote for your friend to ponder:

'It is neither easy nor agreeable to dredge this abyss of viciousness, and yet I think it needs to be done, because what could be perpetrated yesterday could be attempted again tomorrow, could overwhelm us and our children.'

_Primo Levi
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:15:10 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
And this person is really a lovely person....

You could have fooled me!

You arrived where you are in life on your own let others do the same don't become an obstacle for the human being who seeks and needs the Master. Why don't you just drop it. Leave knowledge, leave the master, leave the company of premies altogether.

This is the problem premies have with vocal ex-premies. It isn't that they are concerned about our happiness or that we are missing out on the wonderful experience, or that we are disgruntled or even that they give a shit about us as human beings. Oh, no. The concern is that we talk about it, in public, where other people can see it. That's the big problem with us. That's why we get so much of the 'get a life' 'move on' 'forget it' kinds of comments. Like this premie, who has absolutely air tight blinders on, they don't want discouraging words displayed where they, or anyone else might see them.

I don't need friends I am one.

One what? As far as not needing friends, I beg to differ. The next time you need someone to help you move, or need a ride to the airport, go inside to 'that place' and see how much help you get!
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:45:51 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
JW: Good points, all and might I add: Why is it that they care what we say, anyway? It's because they NEED to recruit others into their delusion. This is the funny thing that separates real 'knowing' from 'believing.' If you really KNOW, then you don't care whether others agree with you or not. If you only BELIEVE, then you need others to prop up your faultering faith, at times. THUS the recuiting efforts and the reaction to the damage we (ex's) cause to that effort.

Waddaya think?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 00:31:25 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
I don't think this (or any other premie) is so innocent as to believe that recruitment is endangered.

There is almost none, and there has been almost none for long, and they are very aware of this.

Maybe they THINK that 'propagation' is really going to start again, as m has been repeating it for years, and he keeps saying it and justifying any 'change' in his organization for that very reason.

That could be part of the reason for their reaction.

Another reason could be that they feel that their belief and their little 'world of k' is threatened: what would happen IF ________ and IF __________ (anything they fear for) because so many 'bad' and 'negative' things are said about the master, EV, etc.

Part of the abuse is that you live in fear. Their fear is limited by their omnipresent huge 'security' and 'safety'. The problem is that it looks like we're beyond it's reach.....

That's just a few ideas.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 03:34:42 (EST)
From: Sir dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: But hasn't Maharaji retired?
Message:
On the subject of Maharaji being a guide etc. Back in the seventies there were premies who openly boasted that without M's darshan they would shrivel up and die, or words to that effect.

Things would be pretty bleak now for such premies. It looks to me that Maharaji's already retired only he hasn't announced it. He can keep the donations coming in with the occasional video link but will make no public appearances in the West.

Haven't premies noticed how thin on the ground Maharaji is these days compared to the Seventies or even eighties? Perhaps he will stay in India now. For a person looking to Maharaji as a guide, things look pretty bleak.

By the way, I made such comments about being lost and needing Maharaji as my guide through life, myself, back in the seventies. That was what being a premie was all about, surely.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:42:35 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The power of knowing
Message:
Mike,

An experiment was performed on five people to choose which straw was the shortest out of five. One straw was obviously shorter than the other 4. All five people saw which straw the others chose. Four of these people who were in on the 'trick' chose a straw which obviously was NOT the short straw. The fifth person who was not in on the trick, due to peer pressure, CHOSE THE SAME STRAW! This experiment was performed repeatedly and more often than not the subjects bent to peer pressure rather than choose the straw which was obviously shorter. The point of this experiment is that for most people it is more important to be accepted by their peers than it is to stand by their own convictions.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:17:48 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good point, Jerry
Message:
Jerry: You made a good point.... My point was that 'if' premies 'really knew' that which they say the 'know,' then they wouldn't give a dingle-damn about the contents of this site, because they would KNOW that it was not true. BUT, they don't REALLY know what they say they know, so this site threatens their 'belief' system, mightily. Sorry, if I didn't make it that clear in the first post.

The old quote, 'they protest too much,' belies their supposed 'knowledge' of K & M.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:05:03 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: What do you think of this?
Message:
Mike,

The only things premies say they know is that practicing Knowledge gives them a beautiful experience and Big M is an inspiration in their lives. I don't think they DO care if somebody tells them this is untrue. Outside of that, they don't claim to KNOW anything. They just DENY everything. Personally, I think they're justified in doing so. Only one side of the story is told on this site. It's yet to be determined what M's side is. (Actually, it has been if you consider his remarks that the way he deals with critics is to ignore them). But he's yet to be 'subpoenad' to challenge the evidence that has been presented against him. Until then, premies are quite justified, IMHO, to discredit that evidence and treat it as a pack of lies.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:31:23 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Clarification
Message:
I'm not talking about the revision of M's claims to divinity. I'm talking about the more dirty accusations, that he's an alcoholic, that he cheats on his wife, harbors poediphiles, stole Amtext, etc.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:37:52 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Interesting perspective
Message:
Jerry: I never quite looked at it that way. I guess the most damning thing is that M doesn't even bother to answer some of the more serious 'charges.' The way he handles it is to ignore it.... unique defense, that in the real world never works. If someone in the real world fails to answer his/her critics, they are assumed to be guilty from the get-go. Funny, but I feel the same way about M. His silence on these subjects is damning!

IMHO, if it were all a simple misunderstanding (yeah, right) he would crack a small smile 'of understanding' and explain it all to us pea-brains. Instead he calls us 'his enemies.' The only problem with premies treating it all as a 'pack of lies' is the fact that his words have been written (peace bomb satsang, lotu satsangs) and in pictures (krishna -I'm God- clown outfit), etc. Those are FACTS that can't be denied so they gloss them over like they were never important..... Mr. Perfection, Mr. Master-of-Perfection, made a MISTAKE! Mr. Liberator hasn't 'liberated' anyone, just their money. Mr. Humanitarian hasn't fed anyone, much less 'all the people.' Mr. Anti-Maya wastes all of the premies hard-earned 'gratitude' on frivolous maya-crap. Yeah, Mr. Inspiration is a real inspiration all right.... really great inspiration. NOT!
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 15:52:15 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Thanks, Mike
Message:
I was just throwing out some thoughts for feedback. Thanks for your's. It's true that M is in a privileged position where he can just ignore the accusations made against him but I, personally, don't find that silence damning. What I do find it is an indication what he thinks of us, not worth his bother. I'm not going to speculate why that is so. I'm just not going to call a man an adulterer, poedaphile, or thief until I hear what he has to say about it.

I agree with you that premies who deny M once bought into this LOTU crap have got their heads buried in the sand. Maybe he doesn't buy into it, anymore, but he sure did back then, at least he sure sounded and acted like he did. And given the fact that he still gives darshan in India and third world countries would indicate that in those countries he still does. And, yes, he is a wealthy hypocrite. What he says and does, concerning materialism, are two different things.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:37:30 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
I think that the premies' trip is about protecting Maharaji, and their image of him, at all cost. Even meditation and the experience of knowledge is expendable and a lower priority to that. That's why you can't get a premie to give even the teensiest criticsm of Maharaji and when forced by the evidence to admit that Maharaji lied, misrepresented, etc., they say, like JM's friend, that it isn't any of their business and isn't 'about' that.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 12:59:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: One more thing JW
Message:
Why do premies always say that m NEEDS to be protected, and that he is defenseless, so unable to protect himself??

Where does this idea come from?

I'm perfectly able to protect myself! Why can't he? Is this a mere symptom of his paranoia?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:28:04 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: One more thing JW
Message:
J-M:

I think the premies love Maharaji, or they think they love him, or they love the image they have of him. And if you love somebody, you tend to protect and defend them, even when presented with the evidence that they are less than worthy of respect. And they do it in a way that is completely emotional, not rational.

Plus, psychologically, if Maharaji falls in their own estimation, the entire trip is destroyed. Some premies have put 25 years into believing in Maharaji, loving him, protecting him. It is very threatening, devestating in fact, to see their image of Maharaji destroyed. They feel like THEY would be destroyed. Being a premie is central to their identities. The way Maharaji has set things up HE is absolutely central to the identities of many premies -- his remaining 'high' in their estimation seems to them to be crucial to their emotional survival.

Also, as to why M needs defending and can't defend himself, I think most of the premies have this view of Maharaji as being little, pure, helpless, childlike, guiless, unsophisticated, etc., and sort of beyond defending himself. Like he is so pure he is above getting into debates with the likes of us about what he has or hasn't said or done. He's a lotus and the poor thing is so sweet and vulnerable, people like us can criticize him and he can't even resond because he is too pure. So they have to do it for him, but they are lousy at it because Maharaji never tells them what to say, how to respond, why he did whatever it was he did, he just ignores and stonewalls. So they are left stammering things like 'it's none of our business' or 'it isn't about that' or these generalizations that 'it's all speculation' with no specifics whatsoever. It's a tough row to hoe so I'm not surprised that most premies don't even try. You really have to fight with and repress your intellect which sees the contradictions to do that.

I know how hard it is. I was a premie myself and did the same things. I actually really feel for your friend. He or she sounds very sure, but underneath the surface is, as Mary said, an anger and frustration because whatever is left of his or her rational and common sense is fighting to come out, but can't.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 16:58:17 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: One more thing JW
Message:
Great post JW. I agree that premies think GM is too pure and innocent to defend himself. This image of innocence is ironic considering how cynical Maharaji sounds. The K experience is always touted as one of purity and innocence, but GM is very coarse in his philosophy and outlook. These contradictions are hard to resolve when you're not blissed out anymore.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 20:40:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Premies=endangered species(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 10:21:01 (EST)
From: Darth Vadar
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
I don't need friends I am one.

Me too.
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Date: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 01:43:56 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lost for 'this world'
Message:
You are right, you need to go your own way. Ignorant people like myself NEED to follow the way of a Master. On our own we just get lost again and again. WE need someone who will take the time to guide us through this journey.

What a truly sad commentary on the 'benefits' of Enjoying Life With Maharaji. This is the fruit of his 'gift' - an ongoing state of dependency and helplessness. Abandon any hope of growing up, because when you follow a 'Master' who is the perfect model of childish self-centeredness, then you will have to forfeit your own inborn potential and remain a perpetual child.
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 18:01:34 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes... this says it all!
Message:
JW: In the proverbial nutshell: 'Anyone else doesn't matter to me anymore...' A more truthful statement hasn't sprung from any 'visitor' we've had so far....

To Brain-dead Premie: THANK YOU, brain-dead premie, for so readily and clearly saying what your compatriots have tried to avoid saying.... You only care about yourselves!
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 21:52:14 (EST)
From: Archer
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brain drain
Message:
My father used to say to me, water seeks out it,s own level.
So if your inspiration and dedication rests with one way of seeing yourself in the universe, you have found something that supports you in that belief, then you have arrived at the same level as the teacher.What level that is in relation to the mysterious whole is questionable.

When I first started reading info on this site I found myself in an internal tug of war for some weeks. The techniques have allways been precious to me, how could it be that the most important thing to happen in my life was reveiled to me by a sharletan. My fathers response to this was 'Well, car salesmen often sell cars that work'

So I,ve come to the conclusion that although I am very gratefull for having the 4 T,s it just so happens it was M. that brought them to my attention. I see the journey I went on with M the same as any Other involved relation ship I have had. It was a journey that through it,s illusion would teach me things about myself.

It has taught me that once again I gave my power away. That I have allways thought I new nothing. That humane beings have been conditioned for centuries to believe that we need a teacher, some one who understands the divine to tell us what to do and how to get there.

When I started to realise that I had no choice but to step back out into the unkown, I became anxious. At first I thought. oh no all this time I wanted a connection to the all powerfull god
and here I am with the same questions I had when I was an aspirant.

I believe that we individually are the all powerfull god we were looking for, we know far more than we give ourselfs credit for.
There is no other species on the planet that gets confused about what it is.

I am no longer confused about what I am. I am what I choose to be.

Archer
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 22:48:21 (EST)
From: billdo
Email: None
To: Archer
Subject: Brain sane
Message:
That is quite a comment your dad gave. 'car
salesmen often sell cars that work'

No need to jump from prem rawat's claim to be god to you
embracing that you are also god now.

Ask your dad what HE thinks about god.

The eastern notion that there is no origional self aware
conciousness has reprecussions. It is that kind of thinking
that prem rawat sprung from. Take a fresh look and don't jump
headlong into new age logics without giving them a
good looking at.

What does your dad think?
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Date: Tues, Mar 23, 1999 at 23:44:15 (EST)
From: Archer
Email: None
To: billdo
Subject: Brain sane
Message:
Dear billdo

I thought I was stating that we do originally have self aware concousness it,s just that we have been conditioned to believe we don't.

'No need to jump from prem rawat,s claim to be god to embracing that you are also god now.'

I was not stating that I am embracing that I was god now to.

I was saying that I don,t believe anymore that god is something seperate from me that I need to try and find. I am a product of that creative force therefore I must have all the information I need. If I can just get all that conditioning out of the way then I will be closer to my full potential. Maybe that,s where the answer lies.

By the way my Dad is an atheist.

Amused..Archer
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 01:14:54 (EST)
From: aoa
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: forum
Subject: (wrt) Brain sane
Message:
I don't think there's any fucking answers. I think good questions are overrated, too.

I resonate with 'a conclusion is where one got tired of thinking' -- which I don't think is an indictment of the conclusion; instead, I think it describes a method for choosing a good place to rest.

If the mind stopped percolating question after question we'd soon be dead -- questions have a great side-effect: investigation.

I think our minds evolved to fulfil a survivalistic requirement that has an ugly side-effect: belief. I don't think the lower animals wrestle greatly with belief, though maybe elephants do, as well as some of the other exceptionally developed species.

I think most people understand that God is a joke - a needed metaphor for an imaginary reference-point. I mean, I think that most theists believe God is a joke, judging by how little they act on what they espouse. Just watch them on any Sunday morning, cutting each other off in traffic as they leave the church parking lot.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 06:53:07 (EST)
From: bdo
Email: None
To: Archer
Subject: Brain sane
Message:
Well said Archer,
The conditioning runs deep from our time with the lord.
Back to you later tonight.
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 13:06:18 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: propaganda dynamics
Message:
I saw this website and thought it might relate to how people get talked into a cult. propoganda
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 22:32:40 (EST)
From: billather
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The A team-Archer and Aoa
Message:
Hello A men,

When I left the rawat universe I fumbled around and wanted
to put my foot down on a more realistic view of life here.

I identified 3 catagories that most folks seemed in.

1) Conciousness emerged from matter.

2) There is a self aware origional intelligence.

3) There is a 'oneness' that is not self aware but has qualities.

Aoa, you perhaps are in catagory one?
Archer you perhaps have a foot in catagory 1) AND 2)?

Just guessing.
I think the evidence revealed by our human nature leans to
catagory 2).
Look at how we are. NO one seems able to go beyond themselves
and lose thier flaws and failings. Fix one area, and whoops,
look at that, you are out to lunch in other areas.
Maybe if your life is real steady at the moment you don't see
that right now so evidently. But pick anyone alive and we
can rip them apart because they definately are screwed up
somehow. All those that claim to have realized this or that
about life still are plagued by thier human nature.

There is no getting beyond it. I am open to any claims otherwise
but I don't see it yet.

Since we are so bound and limited by design, I think that is
one of the evidences that catagory two is the actual reality.

There is more reasons to look at, but I was wondering
if you had a thought on any of that
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 12:49:37 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: billather
Subject: Category 1
Message:
Since we are so bound and limited by design, I think that is one of the evidences that catagory two is the actual reality.

Hi, Bill. As you know, I share your interest in where consciosness comes from. I lean toward category one that it arose from matter, in the case of humans, from the brain, particularly the more evolved part of it, the neo-cortex.

You've made an assumption here that we are 'designed'. While its true there are forces of nature which 'shape' us, I wouldn't extend that to an original intelligence designing us. There's just no evidence to support that claim. The limitations of our abilities more likely is the result of natural selection. We evolved into the creatures we are because in the environment where we exist we are suitable for survival. We are the fittest in spite of those bonds and limitaions .

I saw an interesting show on television last night about people in a coma. I only caught the last half of the show where they discussed 'persistent vegetative state', otherwise known as PVS. These are unfortunates who have suffered such severe trauma to the brain that they exist in a permanent state of unconsciousness. What was interesting about these people is, to look at them, you wouldn't know that they are unconscious. Their eyes are open and you can see life in them. But these eyes see nothing. They just react to light. They can even cry but its not because of sadness or any other cognitive emotion. It's just an unconsciousness reaction.

The fact that these people are in this state because of the trauma which they suffered to their brains is further evidence to me that without a properly functioning brain (matter), consciousness is impossible.
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Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 21:21:25 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Category 1
Message:
lets move this up top
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 17:04:53 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Archer
Subject: Was it worth it?
Message:
Do you regret having had M in your life? Was your involvement worth it to get the techniques?

I mean I really wonder this myself. I have spent so much time and energy sorting myself out after disengaging from this trip. Maharaji's path really wounded me I think. I now don't think it was worth it. I think I could have learned the lessons I learned in a more constructive, less negative way. I learned what I don't want, when I could have been spending time figuring out and going after what I DO want. All in all it was a very negative experience for me, & I regret my involvement.

But that's my opinion. What do you think?
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Date: Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 18:20:21 (EST)
From: Archer
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Was it worth it?
Message:
Hi Helen

I don,t regret having had M in my life. But to be honest I was never a very good premie. For some reason I didn,t give all of my life to Maharaji. This was something I have struggled with over the many years. I never sacraficed my children for service.
I allways seem to be on the fringes. So all round my great sense of liberation comes from not having the monkey on my back. Not having the thoughts that I wasn,t dedicated enough.

Also M had already started to change his tact when I arrived.
I was not exposed to the original heavy satsangs about the Ashram, propogation, marriage. That,s just the luck of the draw.
If I had of been a more confident practicle person in the past, I probably would of thrown myself in there.

I agree It Has been a wasted period of our lifes. Whilst taking M so literally we stopped growing and discovering. I understand the anger and the damage. My best friend gave over 25 yrs of their life, not to mention thousands of dollars and more. None of that can be retreived. The last 8 months have been an emotional roller coaster ride for them.

Maybe it,s unfair that I am expressing my new found independance
and apprearing relativelly unscathed. But strangely the lessons
I've been learning, to be in my physical body in motion, some how saved me from giving my all. Besides that I never had much money.

I think that is the measure of how deep the wound runs, how much of our energy, time and money, our lifes did we give. Of course we are responsible for our choices at the end of the day. But obviously the other side of the coin is that we were all tricked.
In the worst possible way. Our trust was betrayed. We were given misleading advice or no advice at all. The worst of it though is that M held up a shiny trinket that attracted us like moths to a light. Well of course a moth will get burnt out endlessly trying to let the false light guide it. M is in a very old and lucrative business. The one that purports to save souls. Something that has been going on in the humane race a long time and as human beings we seem to have a weak spot for. Which makes us easy prey.

I fell deeply in love with Maharaji. My involvement was more than the techniques. I thought I had the answer. The one thing everyone was looking for.I was tricked like everyone else, I just didn,t give as much of myself.

Picking up the peices may take some time. Some of the peices you may never find. Feelings of despair, anger and confusion may come
but over time they will also go.

Keep yor chin up Helen, your free and you will be a better person for it if your not already.

Love Archer.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:51:34 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Archer
Subject: Was it worth it?
Message:
Thank you Archer. I haven't been involved for many years but still have trouble 'growing and discovering'. M is the anti-growth guru! That's what makes it a cult, I think. Thanks for all your input, much appreciated
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Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:35:04 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Archer
Subject: Was it worth it?
Message:
I allways seem to be on the fringes. So all round my great sense of liberation comes from not having the monkey on my back. Not having the thoughts that I wasn,t dedicated enough.

Thanks for saying this, Archer. This is pretty much where I was at, too. Out on the fringe, out in the 'world', but with the constant nagging feeling that I had to get my ass in gear and really dedicate myself to Knowledge. Maybe if I had more of an experience with K, I WOULD have dedicated myself to the extent I thought I should. I don't know. Interestingly, when I did have those occassional bursts of dedication, they only lead to greater frustration over my lack of fulfillment practicing K. But like you, my liberation is mostly just freedom from that monkey on my back. Now I'm living my life without that fucking ghost hovering about. It makes me feel lighter... freer.
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