Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 45

From: Apr 16, 1999

To: May 3, 1999

Page: 2 Of: 5



Sir David -:- Obeying Katie's agya -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 05:26:51 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Obeying Katie's agya -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:54:59 (EDT)
____Sir Dave -:- Obeying Katie's agya -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 10:11:07 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- Obeying Katie's agya -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 11:08:57 (EDT)
________Traveler -:- What's he doin'? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 14:37:14 (EDT)
__________Mary M -:- What's he doin'? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:19:35 (EDT)
__________Nim -:- What's he doin'? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:45:11 (EDT)
__________Selene -:- What's he doin'? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:58:50 (EDT)
__________Robyn -:- What's he doin'? -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:25:34 (EDT)
__HALIP -:- Burning question -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:12:14 (EDT)
____Sir Dave -:- Burning question answered -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:40:44 (EDT)
______Selene -:- Burning question answered -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:48:00 (EDT)
______Halip -:- Burning question answered -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:52:01 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Zut Alors -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 15:52:05 (EDT)
______HALIP -:- Zut Alors -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:55:41 (EDT)

Irish Seamstress -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:59:07 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- where does it end? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:25:46 (EDT)
__Denise -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:12:56 (EDT)
____Selene -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:38:02 (EDT)
______Nim -:- Selene, what's da funny?! -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:20:33 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Selene, what's da funny?! -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:26:27 (EDT)
__________Nim -:- Got It. Thanks Selene! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 18:05:44 (EDT)
______bb -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:00:10 (EDT)
________Selene -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:12:52 (EDT)
__________bb -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:33:46 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- Whahadamar Inc. -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:48:02 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- Daya's Title -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:50:34 (EDT)
______Denise -:- Daya's Title -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:57:17 (EDT)
______Selene -:- Daya's Title -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:00:59 (EDT)

Jim -:- Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:22:53 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:50:42 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:57:08 (EDT)
__barney -:- stop before it's too late -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:16:04 (EDT)
____Victoria -:- stop before it's too late -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:58:57 (EDT)
__JW -:- Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 10:39:52 (EDT)
____barney -:- Apter St. Louis pre-millenium -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:32:55 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Apter -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:57:33 (EDT)
________JW -:- Deprecating v. Destructive -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:58:04 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- Apter St. Louis pre-millenium -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:06:04 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- the devil etc. -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:16:42 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- following a fraud -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:05:07 (EDT)

AJW -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 07:06:06 (EDT)
__chr -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:05:31 (EDT)
____Liz -:- Disturbing Incidents -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:16:50 (EDT)
______chr -:- Disturbing Incidents -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:08:10 (EDT)
________Zac -:- Disturbing Teacher -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 08:01:24 (EDT)
__________AJW -:- Disturbing Teacher -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 15:00:09 (EDT)
____________Zac -:- Disturbing Teacher -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:52:42 (EDT)
________Stevie Ray -:- Disturbing Incidents -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:25:45 (EDT)
__________Rhona Barrett -:- Disturbing Incidents -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:03:48 (EDT)
__L -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:22:04 (EDT)
____Shp -:- (Aside) -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:45:12 (EDT)
______Robyn -:- (Aside) -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 10:42:37 (EDT)
________HALIP -:- (Aside) -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 02:38:53 (EDT)
__________Liz -:- (Aside) -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:02:02 (EDT)
______L -:- (Aside) -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:25:15 (EDT)
________Shp -:- (Aside) -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:11:43 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:26:57 (EDT)
____Helen -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:38:47 (EDT)
______L -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:59:00 (EDT)
________Sir David -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:34:36 (EDT)
__________L -:- To Sir D -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 13:53:19 (EDT)
____________G's mom -:- M-Does he know he's not God? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:16:43 (EDT)
______________AJW -:- M-Does he know he's not God? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:04:21 (EDT)
____________Victoria -:- Little Fat Boy -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
____________JW -:- To Sir D -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:25:25 (EDT)
________JW -:- Deflated Megalomania -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:16:19 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best*** -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:58:15 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:02:40 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:15:25 (EDT)
__Miloochie -:- Some thoughts -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:07:38 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Some thoughts -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:20:47 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Abuse, responsibility, anger -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:28:26 (EDT)
________AJW -:- Thanks... -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:15:38 (EDT)
__One Who Knows -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:58:07 (EDT)
__victor -:- effort and intentionality -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:40:47 (EDT)
____Helen -:- effort and intentionality -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:35:09 (EDT)
____AJW -:- effort and intentionality -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:35:27 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Why empathize with your enemy? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:51:57 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Why empathize with your enemy? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:50:08 (EDT)
______chr -:- Why empathize with your enemy? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:22:27 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- interesting posts! -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
______JW -:- Why empathize with your enemy? -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:02:29 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- great post JW! (no text) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 17:02:57 (EDT)
__nigel -:- God. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:57:10 (EDT)
____bb -:- Dog. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:58:08 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Oh, Bill, that's ridiculous -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:22:05 (EDT)
________bb -:- Whodathunk -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:47:31 (EDT)
__________Sir David -:- Whodathunk -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 05:13:17 (EDT)
____________crow -:- Whodathunk -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 06:19:42 (EDT)
____AJW -:- God. -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:05:06 (EDT)
______nigel -:- Getting mad -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 09:02:25 (EDT)
________AJW -:- Getting mad -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:28:06 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Post it!! -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:33:15 (EDT)
________AJW -:- Thought you'd never ask. -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 03:48:05 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Better than Pam and Tommy Lee -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:59:04 (EDT)
____________Zac -:- Pyschologist -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 07:54:54 (EDT)
____________crow -:- another therapy session with m -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:07:12 (EDT)
______________Zac -:- Werner Erhardt was exposed -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 08:01:46 (EDT)
__HALIP -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 03:51:02 (EDT)
____Helen -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:48:50 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 12:44:41 (EDT)
________g's mom -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 13:13:22 (EDT)
________Helen -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:31:26 (EDT)
________Nim -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:59:15 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:53:17 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:31:53 (EDT)
____________Liz -:- Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 00:33:16 (EDT)
______________barney -:- seating assignments -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:35:27 (EDT)
________________Liz -:- seating assignments -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:08:34 (EDT)
__________________Runamok -:- PAMs and definitions -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:40:53 (EDT)
__________________Mary M -:- seating assignments -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:58:50 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:29:53 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Who Does Maharaji Think He Is? -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:51:20 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Absenteeism -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:16:31 (EDT)

Runamok -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:19:15 (EDT)
__crow -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
____Roger E. Drek -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:05:35 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- I'd love to have them -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:10:30 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:48:30 (EDT)
________Nim -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:26:19 (EDT)
__________Runamok -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:00:22 (EDT)
____________Irish Nanny -:- Goliaths -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:05:43 (EDT)
__crow -:- last minute party favors -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:05:21 (EDT)

Nim -:- Get smart! It's Text Mart!! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:38:08 (EDT)
__Rahab via Mary M -:- Get smart! It's Text Mart!! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:06:46 (EDT)
____Nim -:- Get smart! It's Text Mart!! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:54:00 (EDT)
______Mary M -:- I don't know... -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:31:01 (EDT)
________Nim -:- I didn't know... -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:56:00 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- I'lle get rich doing nothin -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:14:51 (EDT)
__________Nim -:- I'lle get rich doing nothin -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 08:33:54 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- I'lle get rich doing nothin -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:58:59 (EDT)
______JW -:- Textmart IS Amtext -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:38:43 (EDT)
__JW -:- They Just Write A Check -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:43:41 (EDT)

nigel -:- Spamming the search engines -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:33:54 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Spamming the search engines -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:41:21 (EDT)
____nigel -:- Spamming the search engines -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 19:14:34 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- Spamming the search engines -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 20:07:49 (EDT)
________Roger Spammer Drek -:- Spamming the search engines -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:17:55 (EDT)
__________Sir David Hacker -:- Eureka! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:23:42 (EDT)
____________Jean-Michel -:- I'll trust you guys! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:18:46 (EDT)
____________crow -:- Eureka! -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:02:41 (EDT)
________Skunky -:- Loud odor -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:27:15 (EDT)
__________Miloochie -:- And if YOU... -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:20:34 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- Took the words right... -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:33:40 (EDT)

L -:- Birthdays List -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:45:03 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Birthdays List -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:54:07 (EDT)
____Sir David -:- Birthdays List -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:03:01 (EDT)
____HALIP -:- Birthdays List -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 02:17:39 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Birthdays List -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 20:58:15 (EDT)
__AJW -:- I'm 49 and a Cesarian.6/10/49 -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:45:24 (EDT)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Birthdays List -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 12:16:59 (EDT)

Happy -:- 1978 article -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:44:30 (EDT)
__Happy -:- 1978 article, excerpts -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 16:09:25 (EDT)
____Helen -:- 1978 article, excerpts -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:37:06 (EDT)
______Denise -:- Colored Water (ot) -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:10:14 (EDT)
________Helen -:- Festival envy -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:03:40 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- 1978 article, excerpts -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:44:55 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- journal copyrights -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:27:50 (EDT)
________Dr. Roger Drek -:- ***Best*** -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:48:52 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- also on the EV-DLM Papers -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 06:09:17 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 05:26:51 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Obeying Katie's agya
Message:
I'm obeying Katie's command and starting a new thread for a change of subject. My question is this:

What is Margarini up to these days and is he still hiding away in India? He appears to be in semi retirement with only his exciting web site to keep us enthralled. Is Margarini now officially a poet by profession? Is he trying to emulate Kabir? Has he decided to live in India and just communicate via the Internet?

Does that mean that Western devotees won't be treated to the spectacle of a dancing tub of margarine? Does it mean they won't be able to worship his tootsies any more? Has he become tired of yelling at the stupid, ignorant Westerners? Has he left the cesspit of humanity to philosophise in the fresh air of the Himalayas?

In other words, did he sod off?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:54:59 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: Obeying Katie's agya
Message:
Dear David,
I must have missed something, why don't you think he lives in Malibu?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 10:11:07 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Obeying Katie's agya
Message:
Perhaps I've missed something myself. The last I heard was that he'd gone to India and I've not heard of him coming back.

You have to admit that the supreme Lord in human form is a bit thin on the ground these days.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 11:08:57 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Obeying Katie's agya
Message:
Dear David,
Well:
'You have to admit that the supreme Lord in human form is a bit thin on the ground these days.'
sorry but I have no idea that he had gone away, anyway I thought he was a tub of margarine :) not 'thin on the ground', he wishes!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 14:37:14 (EDT)
From: Traveler
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: What's he doin'?
Message:
He's been in India, Nepal, etc for a few months. There was one Knowledge session with 5000 people, plus others. Last year there were 2 Knowledge sessions over 2 days, each with close to 4000 people. He did large events in Malaysia and Taiwan recently.

Last May at the big event in Miami Beach there was a statistics presentation. I don't remember it all but there were then 30,000 people in the aspirant program (about 5 months of preparation watching videos mostly) world-wide. The U.S. is the only place he goes to where progragation is not expanding expoentially. South America, Australia and some African countries are increasing the most, I think. There are remote places with no electricity where video transcripts are read out-loud.

There was a first-ever live global satellite video event in December. There were over 50 receiving sites around the world. About 80,000 people in attendance.

Elan Vital donations support event activities; international and local finances are separate. Visions sales of videos, etc. profits go back into Visions productions. Maharaji's personal finances are separate, but you seem to know about his business successes.

My observation: New people coming in have the benefit of a simplified program, much less hype.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:19:35 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Traveler
Subject: What's he doin'?
Message:
Also, there's quite a bit of activity in the avionics, aviation industry particularly in Taiwan.

Anybody read Chinese? If not I do have a resource who will be glad to translate.

I've got a few documents from Taiwan's aviation industry that mentions the name Dettmers as well as Corporate Jets.

Now that the door to economic exchange is open to China I would expect to see the Lard and his lakeys moving in for capitalist gains with Maharaji's knowledge sessions as a perfect ruse. We can rest assured that M et al have already shown no concern for human rights (particularly women and childrens). They should be quite comfortable in their present milieu.

C'mon traveler, you must know Maharaji is simply a delusional business man driven by avarice.

Mary M
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:45:11 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Traveler
Subject: What's he doin'?
Message:
Elan Vital donations support event activities; international and local finances are separate. Visions sales of videos, etc. profits go back into Visions productions. Maharaji's personal finances are separate, but you seem to know about his business successes.
Which businesses are you talking about?
Because even Amtext had its start on the backs of ashram premies working in almost a slave like atmosphere.
And if m's business affairs are seperate ,why does the Amtext address show up on so many ev related companies?
And why does this 'successful businessman' or his spokespeople refuse to answer this question:
What is the REAL relationship between m and Amtext?
My observation: New people coming in have the benefit of a simplified program, much less hype.
But as long as new people are being told that k is 'Knowledge',
and that m can give it to you, then these new people coming in, are coming into a cult. Plain and simple.
The transition from the 'heavy devotional' period to the 'Knowledge' Lite period was successful, only because there was no one around to expose the real truth...that a cult is a cult is a cult.
No such luck this time around.
The U.S. is the only place he goes to where progragation is not expanding expoentially
Yes we know, m's numbers are taking a nose dive in the States.
Like I said, its just a bit of bad luck
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:58:50 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Traveler
Subject: What's he doin'?
Message:
Much less visible out there hype. Wonder about behind the scenens though.
Those stats sound impressive til you really examine them.
And, why is it 3rd word countries are more into M than the Americans? Could it be we've been there done that and see through it? My friend from Bulgaria says they are infiltrated by several
cults, all the time. It is a huge problem (or is it a huge opportunity Traveler?)
They are more vulnerable to this type of thing since they have been more sheltered.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:25:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Traveler
Subject: What's he doin'?
Message:
Dear Traveler,
I guess I liked the hype. It made me feel vibrant and alive. Nowadays it all seems dull, listless and boring and I do the meditation just fine without all that.
I wonder if M is doing well in 3rd World countries because life is so hard there, maybe mindlessness is a blessing. Personally I like the combination of mind and spirt. Makes me feel alive. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:12:14 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Burning question
Message:
Greetings, Sir David

Please, put my mind (ooooh, the dirty word is out!) to rest. Is Margarini a combination of Margarita and Martini ? I've got 20 bucks on that one so I do hope my guess is correct ! However, I thought he had a great fondness for french cognac (which I think is great in support of my homeland's economy...)

Please, answer this burning question and make me a rich woman !

Bonsoir !

Happy and wondering in Paris
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:40:44 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: HALIP
Subject: Burning question answered
Message:
I hate to disappoint you HAWIP but the answer is very basic and earthy. Nothing as sophisticated as a Martini. No, the clue lies in my reference to a dancing tub of margarine.

Margarine - Margarini. I know it's too simple isn't it. A bit like a Beatles' lyric where everybody tries to put hidden meanings to it.

No that's me - just basic and simple. He's a tub of margarine.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:48:00 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Burning question answered
Message:
Sir Dave
You and I share something, we may never recover from that sight!
And the peer pressure on us that it was supposed to bring us to
another level or be erotic or Something! I too thought you were doing some play on words about that macarena craze a year or so ago. Don't ask me what or how.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:52:01 (EDT)
From: Halip
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Burning question answered
Message:
With all due respect to your rank of peerage, dear Sir Dave, I'm much dissapointed with you answer... I've lost 20 bucks, or 120 francs, and God knows how many Euros that translates in... Oh boy, that will teach me to make stupid bets.

I bid you a bonne nuit, but only 'cause I'm a good sport !

Happy and poorer in Paris
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 15:52:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: Zut Alors
Message:
Bonjour HALIP,

J'pense que c'est une margarine Italiane.

Anton le Heretic

(pardon mon francais terrible)
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:55:41 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Zut Alors
Message:
Dear Anton le Hérétique

Oui, zut alors, you said it...

An italian brand of margarine ! Pretty funny, and my laughter will be the only consolation prize I'll get as I fork over my 20 bucks for my stupid bet...

And your french ain't bad at all

Happy and VERY DISSAPOINTED but STILL GRINNING in Paris
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:59:07 (EDT)
From: Irish Seamstress
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
G'day all,

Rugrats company!

(*Editor's note: we've since heard that M has created a company owned by his children called WAHADAMAR Inc. We're told it's a derivation of his children's names: WAdi, HAnsi, DAya and AMAR... so perhaps there are four.) It will be interesting to see if any of them take over the family crown in the same manner as Maharaji did from his father.

State ID Number: 01710708
Type: LEGAL
Status: ACTIVE
Good Standing Status: ONLY AVAILABLE DIRECTLY FROM SECRETARY OF STATE.
Date of Filing 08-03-1992
Name: WAHADAMAR, INC.
Mailing Address: PO BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

Duration: PERPETUAL
Title: PRESIDENT
Name: JOHN K. BALE
Address: 516 N PENNSFIELD PL #108
THOUSAND OAKS
91360
CA
Title: REGISTERED AGENT
Agent Name: ALVARO PASCOTTO
Address: 1800 AVENUE OF THE STARS #600
90067
LOS ANGELES
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:25:46 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Irish Seamstress
Subject: where does it end?
Message:
Jeez, there is no end to his corporate shell game, is there?

At least the premies money is being well spent on first rate advice from tax guru Bob Jacobs.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:12:56 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Irish Seamstress
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
Re: kids taking over the 'crown', I remember an event (probably Long Beach 97, in which M made some comment about the next Master and said 'him' or 'her'. He emphasized 'her'and smiled real big.
I took that to mean that maybe Daya was the heir, although that was a big assumption on my part. Even though I was a very devoted premie, this bothered me. It didn't seem to me that the Master should keep coming from the same family. I always liked the Bodhisattva concept that the same soul of the Master keeps reincarnating. Premies told me stories about how when Shri Hans died, somehow his spirit entered Prem Pal or something to that effect, I never questioned.

Well, at least Daya has a beautiful voice and she seems sweet.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:38:02 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
Yes Denise I have commented a few times here about that him or
her statement of M's in LB '97

No one seemed to think it meant that much, or at least on one commented on it, but I see her as a perfect candidate. She can play an audience, she is very charismatic. I was entralled with her til i was a few months into forum and Jim called Daya 'M's answer to Sade'. It was so funny!
Thanks Jim. It kind of tok away the mystique, ya know?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:20:33 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, what's da funny?!
Message:
I was entralled with her til i was a few months into forum and Jim called Daya 'M's answer to Sade'. It was so funny!
Selene, this is a little embarassing, but I don't get the funny.
Who da fuck, is 'Sade'?
Maybe that'll help.
Love,
Uncultured Nim:)
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:26:27 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Selene, what's da funny?!
Message:
Well she is this incredibly sexy vocalist. Black woman, or something she is exotic, big time.
And she has this smooth trancelike voice, moves real slinky.
Can't remember anything she did but every man I knew had the hots for her. oh yeah 'Smooth Operator' was her big one, I think.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 18:05:44 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Got It. Thanks Selene! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:00:10 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
Hi Selene,
I remember you mentioning it and I thought like you that he
was preping daya or atleast leading her on.
He had said to the instructors in 81 that 'you can tell a
perfect master by his feet' as he held up amar and looked at his
feet. He was all of a couple months old.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:12:52 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
M probably gets off on starting these little premie grapevine rumors. I am sure the Amar feet thing took off like wildfire.
I had just gotten divorced then and was in a pleasant/unpleasent
alcohol drug haze.
I wan't in LB tho and the rumors about his Daya remark were already starting on the shuttle back to the decrepit Queen Mary.
He knows it and most likely finds it amusing, if he is inteeligent
enough. I doubt he is.
good to hear from you bb. So when are we going to a wild music concert?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:33:46 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
Maybe we can watch a TV concert at the same time and take a
thread of the forum and waste it and party!
We can have weekend events this way.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:48:02 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Whahadamar Inc.
Message:
Yes!! and we can take bets on how long the thread will
last before it is deleted.
uh, I cna't drink much anymore.... what'll we do?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:50:34 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Daya's Title
Message:
Hi Denise,

I was wondering what Daya would be called were she to walk in her 'Designated Sperm Donors' footsteps? The Perfect Mistress?

Contrary Mary;-)
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:57:17 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Daya's Title
Message:
I never thought about it, but that is really funny!
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:00:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Daya's Title
Message:
HA! I remember at work telling them I found it insulting
to be called a webmaster and I wanted to be the Webmistress.
For some reason all they could think of was whips and handcuffs and so forth.
But then we formed a 'web team' so the issue was avoided.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:22:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl
Message:
EV's web site, Elan Vital
offers some truly Orwellian pictures of people watching videos as well as the cult leader live. It also has the following 'perspectives' (not to be confused with 'reflections') by the usual suspects.


Joan Apter
When I talk about Maharaji and the gift of Knowledge that he gave me, I always use the analogy of my treasured pearl necklace, each pearl being a person who has brought huge value to my life. These are the teachers, mentors and inspirations who have helped me identify important areas of my life that were still unexplored. When I meet these people, something clicks. Maharaji is a rare Tahitian pearl on that necklace of great gifts in my life.
I met Maharaji at the end of 1969. I was a hippie wanderer, travelling overland to India. I had a keen awareness of 'something missing', but would not have been able to tell you what was missing. I was not searching for a spiritual master or a technique of meditation. It was not until I met Maharaji and heard him speak that I began to feel pieces of the puzzle fall into place. It all started when I heard him address his huge audience as 'dear seekers of truth.'

Maharaji spoke to the importance of having a practical connection to a part of myself that is connected to…… whatever I call that life-force that is keeping me alive. His message shocked me because it was so different. This was not an intellectual pursuit. This was not a lifestyle. This was not an external practice, like rosaries or mantras. This was an offer to learn the 'how to' of practicing an inner focus on a daily basis.

The other thing that fit me perfectly about Maharaji's message was that he was not just offering a 'how to' and then leaving me on my own. I definitely needed support to be able to shift from a purely external focus to a more balanced menu, which included internal nourishment. Maharaji helped me see things differently, and opened up new possibilities in my life. I loved spending time with him, my heart bursting with the joy of what I was discovering!

I wouldn't call myself a disciplined person. I am an emotional person; more comfortable following my heart than making an action plan to make my dreams come true. This is another reason a competent teacher is such a treasure in my life. He reminds me where the rubber meets the road. If I really want a life where I feel a connection to something that I can always count on, then it is up to me to organize my life accordingly.

I call the time I practice Knowledge my 'quiet time.' It's the necessary break-time in my life that is increasingly filled with places to go, people to see, and things to do. I feel sincerely fortunate that Maharaji has offered me a method to find that quiet place, one that works for me.

I wouldn't say it's easy to practice Knowledge. It's daunting to be aware of the motor mouth of the mind. But it is simple. Even I can do it. The rewards? Maybe just that little inch of separation between my worries and me, which makes a huge difference in my life!

Joan Apter

Michael Borden
In the hierarchy of human emotions, gratitude has always been somewhat of a step-child. Our culture virtually assaults us with books exhorting us to control our anger, manage our fears, conquer depression and visualize our way to rapturous self-esteem. But try getting some advice on learning the simple art of feeling thankful for life. 'We have nothing on that topic in the self-help section. Have you tried the section on Organic Gardening?'
Contrary to its lukewarm reputation, the feeling of gratitude is actually one of the most powerful and transforming experiences human beings are wired to have. To be able to step away, however momentarily, from our preoccupations, plans, and fantasies and melt into the serenity of the moment is an extraordinary gift. The air around you thickens with opportunity. Your very breath re-introduces itself to you as a chaperone that can lead you to the magic in the mundane. And, with it comes the understanding that life has a lusciousness to it beyond anything— everything—we imagine. To be able to feel that, even just to know that it's always there to aspire to, kindles a quiet excitement inside me that, so far, no-one but Maharaji has been willing to show and re-show me. Maharaji once said that if you could even for a second appreciate the magnitude of the gift of being alive you'd weep with gratitude for the rest of your life.

I'll take that over fretting about whether my new office comes with a window any day of the week.

Michael Borden

Mitch Ditkoff: Happy for no reason
When I was 21, I came within five seconds of drowning in the ocean. As I was going down for the third time, I looked to the shore and realized that this—my last moment—was the most lucid moment of my life. Everything else was a cartoon. Unreal. Fake. In the state I was in, only one thing was certain. I wanted to live. And in that moment, something took over - beyond my exhaustion, beyond my shock, beyond my sense of self - and got me to the shore. It swam me… until I could finally stand. And when I did, I fell to my knees. First, I cried. Then I kissed the ground. Then I sang whatever children's songs I could remember. In that moment of pure exaltation, I had no philosophy, no religion, no family, no home, no future or past. Only the simple joy of being alive.
When I think about Maharaji and the Knowledge he reveals, it feels the same to me. Simply put, he is the one who has shown me what there is to be thankful for. He has connected me not only to the will to live, but to the primal force that moves me. As my teacher, he has taught me how to be a student. And as his student, I have learned that it doesn't matter what I know, but who I am. Or more correctly, what I am. And that? It's what the poets pray to feel, so finally they'd have something worthy of writing about. When I feel it—and I do a lot—I am happy for absolutely no reason at all. Happy like someone on permanent vacation. Grateful. Energized. Content in a way that doesn't require action to prove itself, but naturally wants to give. Am I Y2K ready? Will my blender, car, toaster, water, electric, cable, computer all work smoothly when the millennium turns? I have no idea. All I know is this: We are here for such a short time. And while we are, we have a chance to be compliant with the ancient thing. The ultimate thing. That which is embedded deep within us all. That which is changeless. Timeless. Full of love. Call it what you will, or remain inscrutably silent, the fact is: Maharaji can show you. It's what he does.

(Oh, I almost forgot, I never laugh as loud or cry as much as when I am in his presence.)

Mitch Ditkoff

Andy Perl: Sharing the Experience
People tell wonderful stories about the impact of Knowledge in their lives. Two thing are very vivid in my memory of the days around my Knowledge session. The first is my recollection of my good friend Robbie telling me about Knowledge for the first time, the words he used, the timing of his phrases, his responses to my comments. The second is the incredible cascade of realizations that flooded my consciousness as I walked home from the Knowledge session. I went on to tell many, many people about Knowledge.
Today, I see people put off by the strange and muddled concepts of Maharaji we often generate. The interested people I know are generally successful and clear-headed. They are also inquisitive by nature and something inside them continues to search for the experience of Knowledge. However, they are not interested in joining a spiritual group, as promoted by souvenirs, logos, and language that implies a membership identity. Somehow the clubby atmosphere that prevails when we gather needs to be dissolved. Then more of us will trust the process and risk telling others about Knowledge.

I hope that a positive and clear message can be developed that enables new people to approach and experience Maharaji's introduction in a clean way. In any case, a clear atmosphere and presentation is needed that welcomes new people. This experience has been given to us to share with others. Perhaps Maharaji's public identity could be clarified. People naturally want to know 'who is he', and in the current situation, words like Master, Perfect Master, etc. are spoken awkwardly, with hidden meaning and mystery. Perhaps something more simple would help:

Maharaji is:

A: A Teacher - to those wanting to receive Knowledge

B: A Guide - to those who have received Knowledge

C: And More - since a relationship of gratitude and appreciation develops over time. This relationship is personal and private, between each person and Maharaji.

Maharaji is a Teacher, a Guide, and More.

Andy Perl
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:50:42 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl
Message:
I got on to Elan Vital web-site but couldn't find Apter, etc. How did you get on to them?

Liz
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:57:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl
Message:
Liz,

Go to the site, then go to 'Knowledge', then hit 'Perspectives' up in the corner.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:16:04 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: stop before it's too late
Message:
Jim, you're gonna go crazy reading that stuff.

I try. God, how I try, but I just glaze over and go blank. I get about four sentences into it and I'm gone, wasted, blown away. Was that stuff really the source of That experience, That bliss?

It's fucking spoon-fed brainwash babble. Shit, I don't even drink, but I think that I'll go buy a six pack and watch baseball on TV or something.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:58:57 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: stop before it's too late
Message:
I know exactly what you mean, Barney...I used to go to the premie sites to see if anyone I knew was posting...but soon had to click off due to an attack of nausea. Now I just don't go there. Thanks to Jim for keeping me up-to-date.

Victoria
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 10:39:52 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Apter, Borden, Ditkoff, Perl
Message:
I noticed that the Andy Perl 'perspective' on the EV site is identical to what he posted on the 'enjoyinglife' site some time ago, except that his revealing statement about how shitty propogation was going in North America and that more premies were needed to have a solvent financial base that appeared on enjoyinglife was removed from the EV rendition. Wonder why that was removed; maybe because it inadvertently stumbled on some truth? Andy's perspective ought to be titled 'SEE, WE ARE NOT A CULT.'

In her'perspective' Joan Apter continues in her sad psychological self-analysis. She says she clings to knowledge and Maharaji in an attempt to protect herself from her own feelings and her 'mind.' In person, Joan could be entertaining, but in writing she sounds frightenly disturbed -- she relishes and broadcasts her desire to have some separation from her mind. It sounds so screwed up, but to premies I suppose it sounds quite acceptable, given that Maharaji depends on the prospect of the evil mind to give himself some purpose. Joan apparently lives in her own little chapter of Neurotics Anonymous. Do the people at EV honestly think what she says is actually attractive to people? I think Joan is a sincere person -- she just sounds very tormented. I hope she gets some help.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:32:55 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Apter St. Louis pre-millenium
Message:
I saw Joan Apter speak in St. Louis right before millenium.

Part of her message was that even in the event that Maharaji, himself, admitted that he was a fraud and told everyone to leave that she would still follow him.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:57:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Apter
Message:
Perhaps all those years of being something like M's propaganda minister are making her feel guilty. She's always had one of the strongest messages to deliver of any premie. As Mirgey emerges as an obvious fraud, she probably feels an inverse negativity in keeping with how much she has personally furthered his movement.

She would always put a little neurotic spin on stuff but it was more her way of maintaining a hint of humanity while being one of the closest PAMs. It sounds like she might losing her rock solid grip on things.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:58:04 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Deprecating v. Destructive
Message:
She would always put a little neurotic spin on stuff but it was more her way of maintaining a hint of humanity while being one of the closest PAMs

I think the reason premies liked what Joan had to say was because what she said was seen as self-deprecating. She would talk about how screwed up her mind was -- how neurotic she was, and then throw in all the point that she seemed desperately needed Maharaji to save her. Since she was from time to time a PAM, it made the premies feel better that even she was messed up and not some kind of confident spritually evolved saint.

But now, especially seeing that she is still saying that stuff, it just sounds demented. This whole idea that your life is a continuing fight with a part of your own being is bizarre. It's really the basis of the Maharaji cult. You accept that your own brain is screwed up, that there is a part of yourself that is out to get you, that the world is premeated with the collective mind of millions of people and therefore illusory and distracting, and Maharaji is the only refuge. The basic assumption is never questioned. Why is it like that? IS it really like that? Of course it isn't, but it's appealing to believe that kind of nonsense, and Maharaji continues to reinforce it every time he does his speil.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:06:04 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Apter St. Louis pre-millenium
Message:
'Part of her message was that even in the event that Maharaji, himself, admitted that he was a fraud and told everyone to leave that she would still follow him.'

I remember a Mrs Finch (MIke Finch's mother for those that remeber him) who received k in the mid 70s told me that she was a member of a Ctholic Woman's club. When she told them about M, someone asked her 'What happens if M turns out to be the devil?' to which she answered 'I would follow him all the way to hell'.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:16:42 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: the devil etc.
Message:
And it was in that muddy, muddy festival in Florida around 80', Rawatt was joking about being the Anti-Christ. Like 'maybe I am' or some such drivel. Really fun stuff we were into. That was definitely his play that these people picked up on. 'If he were the devil I would follow him', what a waste of human effort.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:05:07 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: following a fraud
Message:
I heard Anne Johnston say the same thing in 1977, which was then parroted by many 'specks of dust' who sat in the satsang audience. I remember feeling a little out of place there at the after-satsang satsang at IHOP...since I didn't want to follow him if he were a fraud. No way.

It's never too late to change...true humility comes from realizing our mistakes and returning to real-life.

Victoria
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 07:06:06 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Hi everybody.

In my ‘Journey’ entry I wrote that Maharaji seemed just as much a victim of cult programming as anybody else. A few people have since expressed the view that Maharaji is a conman, who’s aware that he’s only too human, and is tricking everyone to get rich.

Strange as it may sound, having been involved with Maharaji for over 25 years, I’d never seriously considered that he might be a simple conman, so, from my fresh perspective as an ex-premie, I remembered back to the days when I went to his house and spent time with him.

Maharaji’s houses are called ‘Residences’. There are several ‘Residences’ around the world. Each has a small staff, who use local premies to maintain everything with spotless devotion.

Just as in the house of any rich person with private staff and servants, there are areas in the Residence you may go, and areas you may not. Everyone is aware of their duties, and what the limits of those duties are. There is a feeling of being in a special place, because the Living Master is walking around, and you are serving him.

As soon as the helicopter lands or the fleet of cars arrive, the atmosphere at the Residence changes. When you hear Maharaji’s voice, the atmosphere goes up another gear, if he comes into the room it changes again. Everything stops and he is the focus of attention. If he speaks to you, what greater thing can there be? You are immediately blessed with a gift you will carry safely home in your heart, and maybe sprinkle a bit of the secondary fallout to your premie friends in the form of a ‘darshan story’.

Maharaji is the focus of what everyone is doing. ‘Blissed Out’ visitors wander in and out and the place buzzes. There are big flash cars in the driveway, cooks in the kitchen and security on patrol .

All the premies at the Residence treat Maharaji as ‘the Master’, from morning to night. As far as I know, he doesn’t have a life outside of being ‘the Master’. He takes his role very seriously, and sees it as fulfilling his late father’s wishes.

When he goes away on holiday, or shopping he travels with premies. I don’t think he likes to have non-premies around him.

The culture at the residence is a more concentrated version of that in the ‘premie community’. The name of the game is worshiping, loving, and serving the Master, as he is ‘the outer manifestation of the inner experience’. Any other behavior, or perspective is regarded as ‘confusion’.

If he’s conning everyone, he’s doing it 24 hours a day, and so convincingly that his own brother and wife are being conned too.

It seems more feasible that he is also part of the delusion, and genuinely believes himself to be the ‘Living Perfect Master’. His personal website shows that he sees himself in this way, as part of the ‘Perfect Master lineage’.

Looking at Maharaji from a psychological perspective may give some clues to where he’s at. So, with my vast experience, based on reading the press quotes on the back of a of pyschology paperback I rolled a joint on once, here's my theory.

He was indoctrinated into 'Perfect Master land' from birth. This conditioning has been reinforced throughout his life. His ego has been force fed under halogen lamps since he was eight. Thousands of people fly around the world to give him money and line up and kiss his feet. People publish magazines and make videos to tell the world how wonderful he is. Insipid, sterile Websites mumbling his support, are sprouting like mushrooms on a dead donkey. He always gets his own way. If he gets depressed or angry, it’s always, somebody else’s fault. And anyway, all he's doing is spreading peace throughout the world. He probably thinks he's doing us all a big favour by being there for to worship and shower with expensive cars.

In Maharaji’s private world, he doesn’t need to con anyone. It all works better if he believes it too.

What, dear reader, do you think?

Anth.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:05:31 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Hi AJW,
I tend to agree with you. My experience around M was pretty much as you have stated. Even when he was angry or behaved in ways that seemed to contradict his 'divinity', we had explanations for it and he and we believed it was his right to behave in any way he saw fit. I did have some disturbing experiences around M- I've tried to explain them before. There were times when he seemed 'dark' and disturbed and I got a very uneasy almost 'creepy' feeling at these times. I always put this down to the commonly held belief that he was mirroring my mind. A friend who I was doing security with had the same experience- he wasn't able to dismiss it as simply his mind and consequently he left M. I am hesitent to believe the stories re Monica and the affairs as I never saw or heard any evidence to back this up. I was certainly aware of un-perfect master like parties , drinking sessions etc , but these disturbed me far less than this almost nebulous feeling that I often had around M. It certainly seemed to me that he was convinced of his calling. I have often stated that I see him as delusional, rather than fraudulent. As far as his brother is concerned, I always found him pleasant and refreshingly humble. He told me that the kids were too spoiled and in various other conversations seemed quite down to earth. I got the distinct feeling that he saw M very differently to the way we did. I suspect its a cultural thing , but his view of 'lord', 'master' etc seemed far more low key than mine. I think he saw it all a bit like a family business and his cultural background meant that he found nothing ethically amiss in this view.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:16:50 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Disturbing Incidents
Message:
Hi Chris,

What were the disturbing incidents you speak of? You have mentioned them before but as I'm quite new I don't know what they were.
Have you ever considered writing a journey? I haven't seen one by you. I am not ready or may never be able to write a journey so I understand if you don't want to write one. May be you have and I just missed it.
As a person who has not spent time around M for a long time but practiced obediently I always felt I would feel blissful around the living lord.
I have recently heard that he gives the Instructors a hard time some time but I think they must be able to take it as they are still there.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:08:10 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Disturbing Incidents
Message:
Hi Liz,
I'm sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. I actually said disturbing 'experiences' and I was talking about my own personal thoughts/feelings that occurred around M. There were , however, some unmasterlike incidents such as the drinking. He was also very moody and unpredictable. This was especially so during the Deca period. In hindsight I suspect he was finding the whole thing very stressful. He was 21 or 22, used to always getting his own way, and when things didn't go quite right he threw a wobbly. Perhaps he's grown up a bit since then. To be honest these things didn't particularly worry me at the time..In fact most of the time nothing happened. I'd be at a residence gate or an airport and be thoroughly bored. Sometimes I spent whole nights at a residence securing the grounds-cold, bored and fighting off sleep. It wasn't like M would invite me in for a coffee or a hot chocolate in the morning. There was no acknowledgement , thanks etc- the feeling was that I should be grateful for being allowed to stay up all night serving the lord. And the sad thing is that I was. M was very different at programs- he would talk to me backstage whereas at the residence or airport nothing was said. I knew a guy who lived at M's residence for 8 or 9 years. He would stay elsewhere at night when M was there, but he was still there every day . M hardly said a word to him in that time. Some of M's attitude was no doubt due to his cultural conditioning as perfect master, but I also believe he is spoiled , insensitive, childish and all too human. I said above that I agreed with AJW that M is a victim and deluded rather than a fraud. However I waver on this one. He must know now on some level that how he presented himself in the peace bomb satsang has not come to pass. He told a PAM ( who I knew well ) that he was considering giving it all away - that would have been circa 85. What I do know is that what he did and is doing is wrong, very wrong and that far from being blissed out, most of the premies who were directly around M got burnt out. You said that you heard that he could be tough with the instructors, but they're still around. In fact most of them are long gone, especially the original western initiators from 75 to 79. I still know some of them - they learned the hard way that M is not only not the living master, but also a very poor teacher.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 08:01:24 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Disturbing Teacher
Message:
I still know some of them - they learned the hard way that M
is not only not the living master, but also a very poor teacher.


One of the confusions for premies is that they appreciate Maharji as a good speaker and think therefore he is a good teacher.

In fact he is a one trick pony. He can give a good extemperanious speech on the topic of what you are looking for is inside of you.

As far as teaching ability I can't think of anything I learned from M in 22 years. He had someone show me the techniques, simple enough.

Did anyone learn anything new? Most of the stuff ie maya, illusion
etc I'd read already. I learned some good recipes in the ashram. 22 years I can't think of anything. Be humble sometimes maybe?
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 15:00:09 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Disturbing Teacher
Message:
Hi Zac,

What does extemperanious mean?

The only thing I learned over 27 years was not to trust Gurus.

Anth.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:52:42 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Disturbing Teacher
Message:
Extemperanous (sp) I meant extemporaneous, speaking off the cuff with no written notes. A good friend of mine's father was a minister and gave him one piece of advice when he left home.
'Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.'

This is real good advice though I was TPP when I heard it and didn't think it could apply to my Guru. I took him to a video event and his only comment was 'he sounds good too bad he's so
ugly looking'. It's funny now.

Your journey is huge. It changes peoples perspectives. Don't hesitate to add to it and if your ever in my neck of the woods don't worry about a place to stay for a few days.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:25:45 (EDT)
From: Stevie Ray
Email: Wakrob@aol.com
To: chr
Subject: Disturbing Incidents
Message:
Chris - I read with interest your comment that many of the early initiators have left M. I was deprogrammed in 1981, and haven't been in touch since, but have often wondered what happened to Bill Patterson, Ira Woods, Arthur Brigham, et al. I guess it's sort of a gossipy question, but do you know? Are they in, or out? What other initiators left? I'd be real interested to know, if you get a moment.

Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:03:48 (EDT)
From: Rhona Barrett
Email: None
To: Stevie Ray
Subject: Disturbing Incidents
Message:
Bill Patterson split from Maharaji about five years ago. I heard he was doing something with using computers for meditation. Sounds weird, but that's what I heard.

Ira Woods is still in the cult going strong. He is currently touring the US doing introductory video programs. He is an 'Instructor,' one of the few who is allowed to speak.

Arthur Brigham is kind of sad. I understand he was imprisoned on a drug charge is currently living in Australia with a number of personal problems.

So, how were you depogrammed? Did your parents have you kidnapped?
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:22:04 (EDT)
From: L
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
AJW you ask what do I think;

I would say definitely yes, as least he started out as a victim. We're all victim's of our conditioning to some degree, according to the behaviorism school of thought. Victim's unchecked tend to become perpetrators. Today Maharaji is definitely a prerpetrator.

If I were to overview Rawat from various schools of psychological thought, not value judging him good or bad, and from a rather serious perspective true to the school of thought, although just skimming the surface, the psychobabble might be:

Behavior Therapy:
He has classical conditioning and everytime someone says Lord he salivates.

Psychoanalytic Therapy:
He had a strong fixation with his father and is currently stuck in the anal stage of psychosexual development.

Ratioional-Emotive Therapy:
Action=People buying into his master paradigm
Bahavior=I must be the Perfect Master
Consequence=Kiss my Lotus Feet

Transactional Analysis:
Rawat says I'm O.K. You're O.K. We all must be O.K.
Basically he thinks everyone going through the same thing he is.

Gestalt Therapy (A narrow view)
Dealing with awareness and integration and coming full circle to be whole. Again, following in his fathers foot-steps, and trying to expand his fathers work as a means of unfinished business.

Existential Therapy:
He believes he has the ultimate purpose, which he feels gives his life the ultimate meaning. Which puts him on the Lord petastool.

So there are alot of other psychotherapeutic schools of thought
I have'nt mentioned, and I've only mildly entertained those I have mentioned. Most westerns view the world through Sigmund Freud's work, whether they are aware of it or not. Even people who know nothing about psychoanalytic thought use psychoanalytic terminology. It's part of western conditioning, we frequently define ourselves and each other in Freudian terms. If you look at alot of different indigenious (cultural) psychologies the view changes.

Then there is the sociological point of view, ie. is he a product of his enviornment, etc. I think most people in this forum view Rawat from a political view, while those who follow him have a philosophical or theosophical perspective of Rawat. We don't tend to define where we're coming from, we just express it. Hence we get words like, bullshit, and what a bunch of crap, etc. This type of cognitive dissonance redefines things still again.

In simple terms, it all depends on how you're looking at it.

'L'
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:45:12 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: L
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
Dear L and all,

First, I just want to say that I find this thread is alot more realistic and compassionate in its approach than to think that Maharaji is rubbing his hands together like some villian and gleefully enjoying anyone's pain and suffering.

This thread reminded me of a riff I saw in a t-shirt book. It in no way reflects my personal feelings about any religions or Maharaji, nor is it intended to offend anyone. Just for pure entertainment....and maybe some humourous truthful reflection into our own upbringings.

Taoism: Shit happens.
Hinduism: This shit happened before.
Confucianism: Confucius say: Shit happens.
Buddhism: It is only an illusion of shit happening.
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah's Witnesses: Knock, knock: 'Shit happens.'
Atheism: There is no such thing as shit.
Agnosticism: Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn't.
Protestantism: Shit won't happen if I work harder.
Catholicism: If shit happens, I deserve it.
Judaism: Why does shit always happen to me?
Televangelism: Send money or shit will hapen to you.
Rastafarian: Smoke that shit.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 10:42:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Shp
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
Dear Shp,
I have seen that T-shirt, I think my older daughter has it. Great! Thanks. I feel that there are so many ways because people have so many different ways of relating ot stuff. Variety is the spice of life.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 02:38:53 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
Hello !

I've never seen the Tee-shirt, but I think it's VERY funny and says lots in a very few words !

A great way to start on a sunday, a cup of coffee and croissant at hand (although I wouldn't advocate laughing and eating at the same time, those flaky crumbs could prove deadly!), in sunny (for once!) Paris.

Bonne journée !

Happy and having my breakfast in Paris
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:02:02 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
Hi Happy,

Are you a Brit living in gay Paree - or are you a Frenchman with impeccable English? Are you an American in Paris? What are you doing in Paris??

Love (nosey) Liz

p.s. Glad that you are happy there.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:25:15 (EDT)
From: L
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
Very interesting Shp. I like the run-down, going to print it out. But I still maintain that different people see Rawat according to their own orientation, the pain they've suffered at his hands notwithstanding. That's why we have so many different views on this forum. Not all PWK's view M the same and neither do all exes.

I'm not trying to be compassionate towards Rawat, I was just trying to look at him objectively. Looking a M through my disgust or anger is a subjective, additional, view. There are times when I feel very personal about my past involvement with M, and other times I disconnect and try to remove myself viewing M from a more empirical point of view. Has nothing to do with compassion or noncompassion. Perspective is everything.

NATO has a perspective in Kosovo, Milosevic has another perspective. This thread, as I see it, is about perspective, and you Shp have your perspective on this thread as well.

Diversity is everywhere and variety, or having options, is the spice of living. I hear what you're saying, and to me it's another point of view. There are people who do not believe in diversity, they believe everyone's the same. I've got alot of information on this; the monotheorist vs the multitheorist. I find it interesting.

Regards,
'L'
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:11:43 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: L
Subject: (Aside)
Message:
You choice of the word 'objective' as opposed to 'compassionate' is more to the point and what I really meant to say.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:26:57 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Dear Anth,
I do think that you may be right about him thinking he is Perfect Master but I think the reason he drinks, abuses those who are devoted to him etc is that somewhere inside he does know it is a load of crap and he can't face it himself. He is in HUGE denial and that is a big negative force battering at him each and every day, would make anyone really wretched and cranky. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 09:38:47 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Ev'ryone ont his thread
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
AJW--HA HA 'my vast psychological knowledge based on having rolled a joint on the back of a psychology paperback'--you are hilarious!

I think that what you say is verrrrry interesting and certainly you and chr have more direct experience with him (I have none except kissing his feet, he looked past me as if to say 'I'm barely tolerating you, you lowly worm slimeball'--oh the LOVE I felt!!)

But from an objective reality standpoint he is a fraud. There is no objective reality in his trip--it's a senselessness trip, and it IS delusional.

I agree with Robyn, that the shadow side of the man is gonna bite him on the butt big time (the Jungian perspective)-- L, I loved your run down with the different psychoanalytical theories! But wouldn't the transactional analysis perspective be 'I'm ok, you're so-so'? I've gotta get off this machine!!
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:59:00 (EDT)
From: L
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Actually from Rawat's point of view it's; I'm O.K. and you're messed up, that's why you need me, and not only do you need me, but the whole world needs me. I think Freud would call it a narsassitic megolmania type personality.

Rawat's got big personal problems. After he has expired, put it politely, there will probably be a tell-all book from his son Hansi, or another family member. When Shri Hans died his family, and followers, went to pieces. The behind the scenes truth of Prem Rawat will be public knowledge one day, secrets don't stay secrets for long.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:34:36 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: L
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
You talk about the behind the scenes stuff being public knowledge one day. This statement, I think, illustrates the massive delusion that Maharaji, premies and even his ex-devotees have.

It is the delusion that Maharaji is a public figure and is a big player in the scheme of things. If his secrets become public knowledge, who is going to be interested? Nobody except a few thousand people in the world. Maharaji is so small and insignificant that a book about him would not sell hardly any copies.

There is a delusion which stems from groups cutting themselves off from the outside world. They appear to themselves, bigger and more important than they really are. This group consciousness abounds in all aspects of life and is useful in maintaining order in the group. The group appears to be the be-all-and-end-all of life to those in it but those outside it can see the true picture that it's a tiny little macrocosm.

Maharaji is embedded into his own little group and cannot see how small it is. He has never stepped outside of the group to see how it really looks from the outside. He imagines he is a king and indeed he is, within the confines of the group. Because his whole world is within the group he believes he is king of the world. But he's the ruler of a very small kingdom.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 13:53:19 (EDT)
From: L
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: To Sir D
Message:
Good point, I agree. I assume your point of view includes this forum. Why have a forum of exes, a group consciousness devoted to exposing M, and in so doing give him more significance than he actually deserves. I think the people on this forum would be interested in a tell-all book, now maybe that's the scope of public knowledge I was referring to. You assumed I was talking about mass media coverage. People here on this forum are making documentation, once secret, public knowledge. The history section and journey's posted on this ex-premie site is material put out there for public consumption. Exposed to public knowledge does not mean a best selling or even widely sold book. It means the things that are speculated about in Rawat's 'small' kingdom will be exposed to whoever wants to know about it; a few thousand or a few hundred.

I agree that followers and exes have made M bigger than life, and I understand delusional group behavior, he's small fry, and the many websites on the internet contribute to blowing this thing out of proportion. Many past threads have been posted on this ex-site about how small fry and unimportant M is.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:16:43 (EDT)
From: G's mom
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: M-Does he know he's not God?
Message:
AJW you really ought to write a book. You are so articulate. You or JW. Or you AND JW. But you are a gifted writer.

I am fascinated by this question. I think you are in a far better position than I to answer it. But here is my guess anyway. I percieve from afar that Rawat has had times that he seems to know he isn't God. For instance, with Mishler as a teen. If the interview is to be believed there was a point at which he made a concious choice to resume being 'god'. I would say that one might guess he didn't tell himself...'oh shit..I am making a lot less money and people don't grovel anymore'...but that it was more that the less money and less subservience precipitated his renwed devotion to Shri Hans, and that devotion to Shri Hans is how he rationalizes his doubts about himself in whatever dark moments he may have. Maybe he tries to banish his own mind when his mind says...'you KNOW you really are taking these people for a ride'.

I have corresponded with another ex PAM who says Rawat has no conscience at all, is not the least bit introspective, is not especially bright, and isn't given to subtlety.

But lets say this thing about him going for marraige counseling is true. How on earth do you present yourself to the therapist and say well,' I am Lord of the Universe but things really suck these days with my wife. ' I suppose the therapst would want to put him on antipsychotic meds....

How would he rationalize knowing he DOES not have superhuman powers?

Also, he has spent his entire adult life exposed to Western Culture. I hear he likes TV. I would say that could put a few chinks in the armour too.

an aside

AJW, what do you know about what Rawat did or did not know about Jagdeo?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:04:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: G's mom
Subject: M-Does he know he's not God?
Message:
Hi G's mom,

I didn't know anything about Maharaji knowing what Jagdeo was up to. I contacted one of the ex-pupils from Unity School, UK, through this site, just after I collagulated last summer. I'd previously heard from her father that Jagdeo had abused her when whe was about 10,on one of his visits to Unity School. Like you, I was disgusted to find out what this creep has been up to.

Thanks for posting your journey and having a reference point to start documenting the scumbags perverted career.

Do you know Jagdeos full name by the way. Maybe you could email me with it.

Anth
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Little Fat Boy
Message:
Too true, was just talking with one of my friends about this forum. He said he could hardly believe that anyone was still taken in by the little fat boy....probably not so little any more?

No, I said, he is 40 and over the hill...

When you get to the top of the mountain to question the great sage...nobody is there, look down, there's M on the other side, fatter than ever, going gray and still hinting at his own divinity. Nothing has really changed...you get yourself there and find yourself alone...no guide, no sage, waiting for you there at the top with open arms and all the answers. We are all alone, all alone, yup, yup, yup.

Victoria
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:25:25 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: L
Subject: To Sir D
Message:
Why have a forum of exes, a group consciousness devoted to exposing M, and in so doing give him more significance than he actually deserves.

I would be careful in generalizing about what people see as the purpose of this website. I think there are a number of ideas about that. To me, one major reasons is to provide a support group for people getting out of the cult, because none was around when I left and I would have appreciated that. The other is to provide information to premies and non-premies who are to the point of analyzing their involvement and need information, which is lacking or nonexistent within the cult itself.

I think if you are discussing M's 'significance' you have to ask: compared to what? Yes, compared to lots of other things going on in the world, and even compared to other cults, he's quite insignificant. But to a single individual who has been trapped in the cult, or those who wasted years of their lives following a charlatan, it and he are overwhelmingly significant.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:16:19 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Deflated Megalomania
Message:
Actually from Rawat's point of view it's; I'm O.K. and you're messed up, that's why you need me, and not only do you need me, but the whole world needs me. I think Freud would call it a narsassitic megolmania type personality.

Probably at the beginning this was true, however reality has reared its ugly head and Maharaji has learned from experience that not only do the vast majority of the people in the world not need him, they are not even remotely interested in him. Plus the vast majority of the people who once thought they needed him, no longer do.

He has acknowledged this by scaling back his propogation activities, especially in the West, to the point where they are virtually nonexistent and it would be nearly impossible to even hear about him if you didn't personally know a premie, and know a premie who was willing to talk about being a premie, which is a dwindling number of even those who still are. This has got to deflate the megalomania quite a bit.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:58:15 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ***Best***
Message:
AJW, it's always a pleasure to read your posts. Thanks for being here.

Roger's House of Drek Best of the Forum
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:02:40 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Hi Anth,

Maybe he doesn't believe he is conning anyone because the people around him appear to be receiving sooooo much from him. It's only when they go home things become confusing, in my experience.

How do your premie friends (without mentioning any names) deal with this? Are they lucky enough to be able to merge their inner life with their outer life and serve M (hence keeping the so- called 'crazy-mind' busy. Or do you know premies who find life in general oh soooooo very hard if they are not washing up the masters cups or digging up his weeds.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:15:25 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Hi Liz,

Some of my premie friends have shied away from me since I fell into darkness and came under the spell of the heretics over here. Some of those that still spend time around Maharaji seem to have got used to life on the divine roller coaster. And some get burned out trying to deal with craziness, politics and bullshit that fills PerfectMaster World.

There are lots of perks, jetting around the world, being an 'important premie', especially if you get to travel on the private jet now and again.

Also, when I was getting a living from the Cult, I was at my most vociferous in support. (It's a similar feeling to wanting everyone to buy the products of the company I work for). 'He who pays the piper calls the tune.'

Well Liz, it's Sunday morning, I can hear the kippers sizzling, so I'm off.

Adios,

Anth
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:07:38 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Some thoughts
Message:
1. To me, Maharaji is a fraud and conman whether he is aware of it or not. Whatever his intentions are do not change for me what his results are.

He is free to write here and dispute my perceptions.

2. I am not so sure that M's story is small potatoes for a precious few hundred people. It is an example of what can happen to anyone, in any era, falling into a hole of losing their self to an illusion of finding God. It is also an example of how any person can be fooled in life.

It is germane to every day life everywhere. He sells the 'ultimate' product and offers himself as the 'ultimate' being.

There may be many, many more thousands who will find this story very interesting and, if you will, enlightening.

The hole that is left in Littleton, Colorado is one that people are going to want to fill. After gun control debates, new school uniforms, pressure on Hollywood/the media and lots of 'informing' on other students at every quirky thing, millions of people will also reach for packaged 'solutions' such as Maharaji is still offering, in hopes that they can abate the smoldering hate.

Lastly, the most suspicious actions of M, are the ones that he continues to take in presenting himself as 'small potatoes.'

There are things I have done, and still may do in this life, that are not my intention, but I am still responsible for them.

For instance, I am responsible for giving satsang to people many years ago that helped convince them to be a part of something I now know is very, very unhealthy and destructive. I am responsible for that. I think I'm going to start crying now. I'll feel better facing that, learning from it, and will do better in the future.

Miloochie
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:20:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Some thoughts
Message:
Hi Miloochie,

One of the things in life that repeatedly deflates me is how, when I find out what caused someone to do something terrible, I start to feel sympathy for the perpetrator. Most child abusers were abused as children. When you see them as abusers you hate them. When you rewind the movie to their childhood, you have sympathy for them.

I end up feeling contradictions.

Anth.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 15:28:26 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: AJW
Subject: Abuse, responsibility, anger
Message:
Hi Anth -
You wrote:
One of the things in life that repeatedly deflates me is how, when I find out what caused someone to do something terrible, I start to feel sympathy for the perpetrator. Most child abusers were abused as children. When you see them as abusers you hate them. When you rewind the movie to their childhood, you have sympathy for them.

I end up feeling contradictions.


I have these same feelings too, but I've had to learn how to resolve them in order to deal with some of the effects of being abused by my own parents. My father was very abusive to me and my siblings. However, he, in turn, had one of the worst childhoods I've heard of. I was unable to get in touch with my anger towards him (although I really WAS angry) for a long time because I felt so sorry for him. This resulted in me taking on the responsibility for his abuse of me - for his behavior. I believed that I caused it in some way because I wasn't good enough. (I think a lot of premies feel this way about Maharaji). It took me YEARS before I could feel my anger at my father, and reject the things he had done to me. It was extremely freeing to do this - it changed my life, basically. Furthermore, I was able to express the anger and then FORGIVE my father, because I realized that as long as I was angry at him, he was still affecting my life in a negative way.

I think, however, that one of the problems with allowing onerself to get angry at one'sr parents, or other people who treated one badly (including Maharaji), is that people can get stuck in it. As a result, they don't take responsibility for their OWN lives - they just blame other people for the bad things they do themselves. I think this is the problem with the abusers who were abused themselves - they don't take responsibility for changing their own behavior, and they basically just pass it on by abusing other people. I think there's a certain point at which people have to become accountable for their behavior, no matter how they were treated as children. I have had to do this myself. I had to realize that I had done bad things to people and to take responsibility for it myself, without trying to explain it away by saying it wasn't my fault because of my bad upbringing.

I do feel sorry for Maharaji when I think about how he was treated as a child - I cannot imagine growing up like that: believing from the time you were eight years old that you were solely responsible for saving the world. And I cannot imagine believing that your father was the PERFECT MASTER (I believe Maharaji did believe this, and probably still does) - how do you overcome something like that? I think Maharaji must feel tremendous resentment at what he sees as having to sacrifice so much of his life to being the next PERFECT MASTER.

But I think that after a certain point Maharaji HAS to be held accountable for his actions, although I'm not exactly sure what that point would be (perhaps when he got married?). I feel the same way about myself - when I was a child, I was powerless to defend myself against my parents' abuse, but when I grew up, I couldn't blame my bad behavior on them anymore.

This is getting long (and probably very repetetive as well), but I did want to say again that I think it is important to be able to feel angry at someone who abused you or treated you badly, no matter how much they were mistreated themselves. But I also think that getting stuck in anger towards Maharaji is very damaging to oneself. To put it bluntly: getting to the point where you think Maharaji is boring is the best revenge :). Then he's really not affecting your life any more. Personally, I do not feel anger towards Maharaji nowe, except at certain moments when someone brings up some terrible occurrence on the forum. But these are just flashes - I'm pretty dispassionate about him now and that's where I want to be. (I believe that the opposite of love is not hate - it's indifference.)

Of course, I am VERY lucky that my experience in the cult was not that bad, didn't cause me to do things I'll regret forever, and didn't take up that much of my life. Becoming a premie was actually more healthy than the self-destructive things that what I was doing before I was a premie, so I have little regret about the experience. I know that a lot of the other people who post here, (not to mention other ex-premies that I know) had much worse experiences than I did and have a lot more justifiable anger towards Maharaji.

Anyway, that's my two cents (tuppence) worth...
Take care -
Katie
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:15:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks...
Message:
...for that Katie. It hit the spot.

Anth.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:58:07 (EDT)
From: One Who Knows
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
He is an international illicit arms and technology operative.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:40:47 (EDT)
From: victor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: effort and intentionality
Message:
M is involved in quite a bit of strategizing and plotting.he has plenty of stress- stressing out about howto expand, how to maintain power and controlproperly.I think your summation of m's character assignshima kind of passivity in the whole process of beinga cultleader. sure, many things have been set up for himandhe has been told things very few of us have ever beentoldbutin his ability to maintain his hold-(relativelysmallas it is,in comparison to Rev.Moon, say)heisinvolved in conscious effort of mind control andmanipulationofthe human psyche,andthe complicated science of image presentation.watch out for the old: 'he knows not what he does'he can help it. he could reach out for help inorderto gain perspective on himself.he isscared.he cannot truly change- because he is so scaredofdefeat, compromise, humility.heis really scared to feel human. to be empathic.people with power know exactly what they are doing.it'sdelusion and denial to think otherwise.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:35:09 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: victor
Subject: effort and intentionality
Message:
Great post, Victor.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:35:27 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: victor
Subject: effort and intentionality
Message:
Hi victor,

He lives in a wacky world, where everyone he meets interacts with him in a wierd way- worshipping him. If he says 2 and 2 make 6, then 2 and 2 make 6. In this respect I think he's probably like a lot of powerful people. They end up surrounded by sychophants. In Maharaji's case he's had the extra trip of him being Lord of the Universe laid on him since he was 8. So it doesn't seem simple.

Anth.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:51:57 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why empathize with your enemy?
Message:
There are some reasons. But it's a waste of time to do so with Miragey, at least for most of us. He's still reeping the rewards of his con game with us and we are, to some extent, still recovering from our losses. Some of us never will recover. We simply gave too much.

I've met concentration camp survivors who had incredibly selfless things to say about their experience which showed something like compassion for their oppressor. That's inner and has to do with their strength and compassion. Don't get confused about this. It's your compassion that allows you to feel anything but hate for Miragey. Whether, and how he is conscious of others' suffering is ultimately not relevant to how responsible he really is.

Look at the Christian view. Forgiveness comes from God (not humans) and only after repentance (taking responsiblity) exists in that person. I don't think forgiveness is something that is my responsibility ever (even when I feel it) toward someone that has wronged me. Likewise, I don't want to be in the business of offering it as an incentive for someone to repent. We still need to deal with our programming and it's liberating to proclaim from the rooftops that Miragey is a fraud instead of considering the environmental factors that may have led him to destroy so many of (our) lives.

Why pity a money-grubbing monster like Rawatt? Why look out for
his defense? Sure, his dad blah blah blah. But if he had a shread of sensitivity of caring he would have figured it out for himself. If he had a hint of decency he could have looked after his disciples better, and considered their actual human needs instead of his own in the guise of 'what's best for my disciples'.

Why pity an outright villain like Miragey?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 06:50:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Why empathize with your enemy?
Message:
Hi Runamok,

In my mind there's a grey area. It's to do with being conscious about what you are doing.

I don't think Maharaji sits down and thinks, 'I fancy a month in the Seychelles. Let's think of a good con to milk the premies again and pay for the holiday.'

I think he really believes he's helping people. I also think he has problems dealing with his 'mission'. He gave me the impression of avoiding responsibility because he didn't like dealing with difficult situations. This is why so many projects have been started over the years, and simply fizzled out, and why many situations are simply left to 'work themselved out'.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. I don't see him as a scheming con artist, more a confused, deluded, and ultimately lonely individual. He's been in denial about his 'human' status since he was eight.

Anth.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:22:27 (EDT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why empathize with your enemy?
Message:
Hi Anthony,
Confused, lonely and deluded is exactly how I heard M described by a security PAM who walked out on M in 1980. As I said in my post above , he did seem to get stressed about difficult situations. I suspect that he expected the universe to always come to his aid, being lord and all that, and when it didn't he became confused and angry. Anyway there were always enough premies to selflessly work their insides out to rectify any situation. It was those times when I sensed a confusion, loneliness and a dark cloud around M that disturbed me the most.
Cheers, Chris.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:00:51 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: interesting posts!
Message:
I am very interested in this Guru analysis.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:02:29 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why empathize with your enemy?
Message:
I don't think Maharaji sits down and thinks, 'I fancy a month in the Seychelles. Let's think of a good con to milk the premies again and pay for the holiday.'

AJW:

There are those who were involved very closely with finances very close to Maharaji who would disagree with you -- in fact they say this is EXACTLY what he did. He would tell the premies, for example,to raise money for say, a plane, to do 'propogation' and then spend it on something even more 'personal' like a vacation in Bali. The fact is, he has absolutely zero financial accountability, and just from the objective facts of things, he has amassed fabulous wealth and material posessions for himself, but he has been a miserable failure at propogating knowledge. I think his priorities are pretty clear, although I agree that he likely rationalizes that because of who he is he deserves all he has and more. In fact, these PAMs say he was basically obsessed with MONEY -- where could he get more MONEY.

Plus, he has never demonstrated one ounce of interest or compassion for his devotees. They are completely dispensible to him, although I'm sure he is nice to them if they are doing things he wants, like teaching his kids, raising money, cooking his food, etc.

AJW, I think you are also missing another point here. Even conmen rationalize what they are doing. Very few people con others without some kind of a rationalization as to why it's okay to do so. So, Maharaji can be a con, which I think he is or at least has been for the past 20 years of his life or so, and still convince himself that it's okay, especially when most people around him never question a damn thing he ever does. But he knows it's fragile, this rationalization trip, that's why he tries to only surround himself with sicophyants, never deals with his critics, never answers questions, won't travel on commercial airliners where he has to deal with non-programmed people, etc., and is actually very shy, almost threatened, in the regular world.

He has to know from personal experience that he doesn't have the powers to do what he set out to do, as it hasn't worked. He has downgraded significantly his expectations over the years, and is simply trying to hold on to what he's got and make the fewest waves that might threaten his little empire. If he has any brains, he knows very well that he isn't at all how he portrayed himself in the 70s. Congitive dissonance big time. If he truly believed it, he would have continued on as he did, not downgrade himself from lord to meditation instructor, and basically hide out from most of the world. The fact that he has changed (he says 'evolved' (another rationalization), indicates he has evaluated to some extent his actions and motivations.

JW
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 17:02:57 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: great post JW! (no text)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:57:10 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: God.
Message:
Thanks for a really vivid snapshot of life in M's residences.

Since reading your wonderfully well-written 'journeys' post I had wondered what it might be like to have that much close contact with a living lord whose socks I had only kissed twice - and, at that, only briefly (tasted like silk, mostly. Maybe a hint of perspiration.).

I was slightly unsettled by your 'I joined a cult and saw the world' resolution to your journey, which seemed to me like you probably hadn't fully appreciated the scale of this strange little chap's corruption of your life and normal rational thought processes. But I loved the 'drip.. drip' section, which - if you hadn't noticed - has become regular forum parlance for 'moment of doubt'. It'll be in Chambers one of these days.

M sounds a bit like Ceaucescu to me - for want of a better normal life comparison. Being worshipped is addictive and fucks up your rational brain.

Someone who has not only been explicitly obeyed for the last three decades, but who has never had to work for a living, whose time is his own, and - at least since Mata ji went back to India (if not before) - has never had to obey another living person, who has never had to worry about paying his electricity bill, or how he will feed his family is going to be way off the bell-curve of any conventional measure of worry, stress, anxiety, empathy or fellow-feeling for others.

But innocent dupe? No. He is old enough and intelligent enough to know better, IMO, even if his poetry suggests otherwise...

I suggest you stop excusing him, AJW, and get mad at the bastard. For your own sake.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:58:08 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Dog.
Message:
I know Sir David and others make a good point about
how rawat is a small pile of shit.
But I think his narcisstic meglomania and breath merchandising
has a chance of growing like a malignant melanoma if
given a couple breaks.
Look at the other lord posers in history that made a wide
wave inspite of thier obvious insanity.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:22:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Oh, Bill, that's ridiculous
Message:
Bill,

Maharaji has as much chance getting any real momentum in the world as does the late Haile Selassie. It ain't happening. His kind of avoidance-based, ritualized-appreciation cult isn't ready for the rough-and-ready world-at-large. Ready-to-wear. Brighton-by-the-sea. Me-and-my-hyphen.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:47:31 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whodathunk
Message:
that Joe Smith and his wild story of finding and then loseing
some golden tablets that told him there was this whole
civilization with castles and cities in america after
jesus died. There is not even a campfire found in archeology
that can back up any of the claims he made about americas past.
Yet, they are advertised as the fastest growing religion in
usa. 18 million. It's nuts. But, doesnt stop people from
buying into it.
Whodathunk L Ron Hubbard would have affected so many with
his insane blabber.
Whodathunk the maniac that got smart young people to commit
suicide so they could catch the bus behind the comet?

You have a lot more faith in peoples smarts than I do.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 05:13:17 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Whodathunk
Message:
The Mormons have had a good thing going for them in that the men are allowed to have multiple wives. L Ron Hubbard made a religion out of science fiction, which is a very popular subject.

What's Maharaji got going for him? His poetry?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 06:19:42 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Whodathunk
Message:
Hi Sir David,
If y2k flattens the third world into a prolonged recession/
depression, his video footage of his great life as
millenium savior and western manner of speaking and
the various strains of his slanted truth will potentially
carry him to a large following.
His brazen proclaiming himself as the master of life will
impress those that are innocent enough to not be able to
see through it.
Look at the elk blabber and see how rabid the zealots are
and how they are so willing to lie about the past and
rawats effect in thier long involvement with him.

I know what you are saying, and I agree, but he can and
will make a larger splash and we will have our hands full.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:05:06 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: God.
Message:
Hi Nigel,

You're not the first person over here to tell me I ought to get mad, so this is for those other polite observers too.

From about the age of 16 I decided to try and make the aim of my life to realise, serve, know, whatever.. 'God'. By the time I heard about Maharaji, I was already convinced a guru or teacher was necessary to travel further along 'the path' of my already chosen career as a Holy Joe. So, I was easy meat and took to being a premie like a duck to a bathfull of charanamrit (holy water).

Knowledge and Maharaji were 'exactly what I'd been looking for'. At the time Maharaji was fifteen and about to establish Peace on Earth, get rid of all the guns, and even tame Africa's carnivors and turn the lions into vegetarians.

I joined a spiritual, social movement and everyone seemed to have a common aim and sincere intentions. Maharaji, at fifteen and surrounded by such enthusiasm, must have believed it himself? Rerunning the movie in my mind, I don't look like a victim being conned. (A lemming maybe, but not a victim).

With regards to what's happened in the following 28 years, I remember the people first, the laughs, the friends, the good feeling that comes from working selflessly with others, the good times I had in the classroom, with Wadi, Hansi,and Daya.

Of course, there was tons of crap too, and even more straightforward insanity.

Since I walked out in the rain, after seeing Maharaji at Wembley last summer, dripping wet, the process of leaving has continued.
In my journey I said I 'colagulated' and suddenly became an ex-premie. I don't think this is quite accurate. I'm still on the way out.

Yesterday, when I was writing the piece at the top of this thread, I felt a knot in my stomach, about posting it. There was one section in particular, which I removed, replaced, and finally removed again, which I imagined would be read with disgust and anger by my premie friends. This feeling surprised me, and made me realise that there's all sorts of crap slopping away beneath the surface that I haven't dealt with yet.

The image of standing on a beach comes to mind. The tide is coming in, splashing quietly around my toes. I don't feel wet yet, but these are early days.

Hey, you pulled a lot out of me this morning.

Adios,

Anth.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 09:02:25 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Getting mad
Message:
Hi Anth,

I hope it doesn't sound as if I was trying to tell you what you should think or feel about Maharaji. When I concluded with '...for your own good', I was just remembering how good it felt the first time I expressed a whole lot of anger on the forum.

Actually, for a few years after ceasing to practise Knowledge, I wouldn't hear a bad word said about M. It was a bit like I had been taking these placebo tablets for years, believing them to be a wonderdrug. After I stopped taking them, I carried on believing the medicine must have done me a lot of good. But when the realisation dawned that they were no more than very expensive sugar pills and that I had been seriously deceived and exploited, the resentment started and continued to grow. (I don't feel too emotional about my premie years, nowadays. My involvement with the forum now comes more from the belief that something ought to be done to minimize Prem's ability to deceive and exploit others.)

I don't think it is necessarily the case that everyone should come to regret their years as a premie, but I suspect in most cases they do eventually reach that point - even if it means having to face up to having been a bit of fool for geting involved in the first place.

Nigel
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:28:06 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Getting mad
Message:
Hi Nigel,

My premie friends ask me why I'm so angry about everything, 'If I've become disillusioned with it, why not leave quietly?', and over here on the Wild Frontier, I sometimes get the opposite message.

Lots of things in life do make me mad- bombing cities full of civilians, forcing people from their homes, bullying, mindless violence, mindful violence, probably the same kind of stuff that makes most people mad.

When I think about Maharaji and my involvement with his activities, aside from when I taught his children, when I was left to do what I wanted, the picture that comes up is more Monty Python than Evil Cult 3.

I've so many 'nutty' snapshots in my memory. I think I might write a book one day.

Anth.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:33:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Post it!!
Message:
Hey Anth,

Please post the section you ultimately cut out. We're truly enriched by your frank remembrances. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 03:48:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thought you'd never ask.
Message:
Hi Jim,

Thought you'd never ask.

It was actually a piece of second or third hand information about an incident I didn't attend.

I heard about a session with a pyschologist who specialises in people in situations of power- politicians etc. Apparently a few years ago somebody arranged a group session with Maharaji and a few of the people around him.

The result was that everyone in the group 'opened up' and participated except one- gues who?

Apparently Maharaji later tried some of the exercises on premies at conferences, out of context and in a rather half arsed sort of way.

That's it.

Anth
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:59:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Better than Pam and Tommy Lee
Message:
I heard about a session with a pyschologist who specialises in people in situations of power- politicians etc. Apparently a few years ago somebody arranged a group session with Maharaji and a few of the people around him.

God, can you imagine if they'd videotaped that little get together? I'd pay good money for a copy of that, I would.

What else you got, Anth? Any recovered memories or anything?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 07:54:54 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pyschologist
Message:
If he participated he would appear fallible and the PAM's who attended would start thinking for themselves. By not participating he again puts his lovable premies in an unteniable position. It's like Dad bringing junior to the nut doctor because he can't get the kid to behave.

Of course the nut doctor is probably aware that Dad is the true cause of the problem. But Dad writes the checks so why rock the boat payment.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:07:12 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: another therapy session with m
Message:
In 76, bob mishler arranged-withg rawarts permission,
to have the guy from est-werner erhardt, come to
the denver headquarters to meet with rawat and 'fix' him.
Erhardt came, and rawat sat in his office and wouldnt meet
with him.
bob tried to coax him out but no go.
wish I remembered what erhardt said, I did hear.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 08:01:46 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: Werner Erhardt was exposed
Message:
by his daughters. He forced them to have sex with him. He subsequently sold his est empire to his instructors for $70 million
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 03:51:02 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Dear Anth,

Here is my two cents' worth on your very well written post (and I'll take this opportunity to tell you that I enjoyed reading 'Journey' immensely).

You write :'The name of the game is worshiping, loving, and serving the Master, as he is ‘the outer manifestation of the inner experience’. ' I think this is precisely where the confusion lays for the premies. M is no more 'the manifestation of the inner experience' than any other living thing or being on the planet... I think one can safely say that he shows (with more of less talent and seriousness) one of the many ways to 'go inside', to speak in premie lingo, and feel that 'experience' (if you're lucky enough) . In other words, he is in the meditation business... But although he has been 'brainwashed' himself from early childhood into being God incarnated, I have a hard time believing that he thinks himself to be God... I think he's too intelligent for that. Everything he has done points to one thing, however : his incredible love and need for money and power. I don't even think he's in 'denial', I believe he's perfectly aware of what he does, and why he does it. I can find nothing to excuse him for his huge ego, his greed, his contempt and total lack of disregard for the well-being of the people who made him who he is, in other words, the premies...

On a lighter note, you write : 'So, with my vast experience, based on reading the press quotes on the back of a of pyschology paperback I rolled a joint on once, here's my theory.' That's very funny... and shows you have a great sense of humor about yourself. And this is precisely what M sorely lacks. I guess when you're posing as the Lord of the Universe, you better take yourself seriously if you want others to do the same...

On these few thoughts, I wish you a lovely Sunday

Happy and living in Paris
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:48:50 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Here's my 5 cent analysis: Perhaps you feel guilty about taking a stand about the guru having been brainwashed to feel love all the time. I agree with Runamock that forgiveness is not something that people are entitled to automatically. And we don't have to love everyone.

M has to earn my forgiveness by showing remorse and making an effort to right his wrongs.

Anyway, I love your posts . They are very honest and it is interesting to hear the insider's view.

As far as M thinking he's God or not--I do think that inside his own mind he beleives that people are benefiting from the delusion, and that makes it OK somehow. But it's still not OK even if he believes that.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 12:44:41 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
The issue seems to be not whether M is conscious or not, but can he be held accountable for his actions. If someone is a repeat offender, and goes through life making their way via scams (selling the Brooklyn Bridge, special fake investment package, etc), they're not worth a whole lot of compassion.

All the more so, someone who cons thousands of people at a time is not going to be worth the consideration.

It seems, honestly, like people who have been around Miragey a lot, have a lot of trouble saying that he's a villaim. Is this because he genuinely has some redeeming qualitites and you have experienced them? I doubt it.

The people who are high up are twice blessed, they are actually financially supported by the old gizzard. I don't think his machinery today would be as successful (i.e., stable) without his healthy financial underwriting of so many of his bigshots.

It's harder to say that some guy who paid your rent for years is a villain, but it really doesn't mean he isn't. People around Hitler often described him as the life of the party. The example shows how much villainy can appear as innocence, whether a comparison is fair or not. No comparison is implied except as far as how easy it can be to overlook the wrongdoings of someone close to you.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 13:13:22 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
That is a good post. I think also some of the closer bigwigs are more afraid than the typical ( ha ha what about us is typical ) ex. They are more easily identified and targeted. If not by Rawat or his PAMS than by nutcases like ISPY. So those with the biggest 'dirt' are gonna have to have balls ( or ovaries ) of steel to take the step of telling their stories in public.

It seems like another layer of Rawat's game. Give the PAMs perks, perks to make them feel special, perks to make them comfortable, perks to make them feel like staying, but if they leave, those same perks make them feel GUILTY and LOYAL, this ensures silence. Or at least makes it a whole lot more likely.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:31:26 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
Good point Run. But while some PAMS have profited, others have been made miserable by being trapped in M-land. I am not saying I have much compassion for them either, but I do think this trip can be powerfully hypnotic and miserable. Look at Joan Aptor and her death wish satsang Gail told us about. I mean that is sick.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:59:15 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
The people who are high up are twice blessed, they are actually financially supported by the old gizzard. I don't think his machinery today would be as successful (i.e., stable) without his healthy financial underwriting of so many of his bigshots
Actually Run, at the residence, you'll find some of m's staff are on salary. There are other top level PAMS who are able to do what they do, that is, offer their services to m, only because they are financially independant. They receive no remuneration for their service, other than having their expenses paid.
It seems, honestly, like people who have been around Miragey a lot, have a lot of trouble saying that he's a villaim. Is this because he genuinely has some redeeming qualitites and you have experienced them? I doubt it.
I believe that part of this is attributable to the heavy and deep programming that somehow, m is apart from all the bullshit around him, when in actuality he may be the very cause of it.
Also, for someone who has been close to m, and has experienced being charmed by him personally, directly...it just compounds the head fuck.
Yes, the cult may be making you sick, but you now have the problem of squaring away those precious moments with m.
I only spent two hours with m at the Amtext party at the residence, but I found myself being totally charmed by him.
And it did make my leaving the cult harder.
I think every ex on this page at one moment or another felt some love for m.
Its not that easy to dissown a loved one.
Although in this case there certainly isn't much of a choice.
When your loved one has set himself up as an elixir, when in fact he's the poison...then your 'loved one' really isn't worth the love.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 19:53:17 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
Yes, those kinds of moments are seductive, Nim. The Lord paying attention to you personally, or whatever latter-day semantic descriptions of the same which are around today. But when someone is crucifying you, it really doesn't matter how charming they are. The PAMS, I would guess, are paid when they are worth it for genuine managerial skill at keeping the masses in line. It's only a guess but I stand by my point.

As for Apter, Helen, I think you are too quick to pity these people. Apter sold Miragey's messiahship to thousands. From reading here, she supports herself by selling insurance to PAMS and ex-ashramers who stayed with our precious Lardy. The infrastructure of support for PAM's and bigwigs is the precious fruit for only the cream of the crop, whom I surmise M. feels he definitely (or desperately) needs to continue. Think about it. How much of the financial infrastructure for the PAMS is in one or another based around M's agya or the latter-day likes of it?

Arguably, providing the necessities of life was something he was responsible toward ALL of us for, if he was truly the father watching a baby crawl toward a fire. We gave up our direction in life to try to follow his, as ambiguous and selfishly designed as those may have been. He always would hold out support (e.g., land we all could live on together, or formerly a divine city) and then abandon it. People would leave their jobs routinely to follow these dreams. The havoc he wreaked in our lives and those close to us, as well the loss of what our idealism might have done had we pursued it with honest allies, is immeasurable.

Stop pitying a villain and his accomplices. It's seductive, but we have left. There's no reason to turn around and regret.

If you want to meditate, have at it, but forget this fraud. I should say, remember him for what he is.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:31:53 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
Hi Runamok,

Would Joan A. have been selling for 'Aurora National Life Assurance Company' out of Santa Monica? If so.... well that's a whole other thread and I'm sure you can figure out which way it flows.

Gotta run and throw my towels in the dryer. Selene and I are on the same wavelength tonight!

Mary M
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 00:33:16 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Serial Con Game/ Mass Con Game
Message:
I've been doing quite a bit of reading on other Guru/disciple relationships. In India it is perfectly O.K. for the rich and famous to be allowed to sit in the front rows at a 'darshan' type of event. After all it is their good karma which allows them to be so close and this is accepted by the 'riff-raff'at the back.

Personally this PAM situation makes me crazy. If I was one of them I would probably feel different. This is what is so scarey!

Also it has been mentioned in these Guru/disciple articles that many 'disciples' have really low self-esteem and don't think very highly of themselves at all You can see why it makes people feel good and better about themselves to be sitting up close to the 'living master.'. The riff-raff just justify this low-self esteem and unworthiness with fake feelings of humility.

Puke - it makes me sick!
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:35:27 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: seating assignments
Message:
I've probably mentioned this before about seating assignments at the large programs like Long Beach, but will reiterate it.

Not that I have any direct proof, but I sincerely suspect that the seating is arranged by a number of categories:

1. Family
2. PAMs
3. Direct Service
4. Other Service
5. Financial Contributor Level
6. Bongo

It seemed that no matter how quickly I would get my application into EV I'd always be sitting up in the balcony. Couldn't get a good seat if my life depended on it.

I know that there is a computer progam that was written for seating and first you need to get an ID. It is conceivable that the seating program that uses your ID has a lookup to see where you're at in terms of donations and other demographic attributes.

Yes, the PAMs give me the creeps. I've been around the backstage action and it's a weird little scene.

And yes, you get a tid bit once in awhile like a good seat or a little personal experience with Maharaji and you feel loved and special.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:08:34 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: seating assignments
Message:
Hi Barney,

Seeing the post about Joan Aptor being called a PAM made me wonder what the definition of PAM was apart from people around Maharaji.

Say Joan Aptor isn't very wealthy and she isn't doing personal service and she isn't an instructor. What makes her a PAM?

If it's dependant on being devoted (like I'm sure many premies still believe it is how does m measure premies devotion?

I've come to the conclusion that she propbably doesn't sit in front of that fancy rope.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:40:53 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: PAMs and definitions
Message:
Actually, what was posted on here (and I cannot be 100& sure it is accurate) was that Apter makes a living selling insurance to PAM's and ex-ashramers still on the scene. Apter was always a leader in the Mission when she wasn't square in the middle of Darshan, USA or wherever else M was.

So, suppose she's living a comfortable living with clientele referred to her by M or his infrastructure and spending the occasional weekend day with M reminiscing or whatever those people do when they relax (or try to). Insurance salesman make an above-average living to the best of my knowledge. If they have a built-in clientele then they really do have it easy.

I think I referred to her as a PAM and I just don't get your point.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:58:50 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: seating assignments
Message:
Hi Liz,

I think the seating is ranked by $$$$ or the ability to induct individuals with $$$ or the ability to be a discreet gopi. (What is the masculine form of gopi? Just an aside so the premie guys can start positioning themselves to win Daya's good grace?)

I think at one point Joan A donated a trust or inheritance.

Also, many of the New England PAMS came from families with established Trust Funds or Political Connections.

It's not every day that you meet someone who knows the best 'Tax Attorney' in the country;-0

Of course my opinion is a little tainted by all the muckraking I've done looking for Nell's watch;-)

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:29:53 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Bonjour HALIP,

The stuff I posted to Nigel, above, was also in response to what you wrote.

a bientot

Anth le Hungover

(worried that he's going to spot some nutty post he put up last night after arriving home somewhat inebriated. Sacre bleu! Qu'est ce j'ai fait.)
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:51:20 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Who Does Maharaji Think He Is?
Message:
Eureka!

After all this corporate and asset research I've finally figured out who Maharaji thinks he is:

He is an Absentee Owner
He is an Absentee Shareholder
He is an Absentee Sat Guru
He is an Absentee Lord of the Universe

That's a lot of demerits in the school of life!

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:16:31 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Absenteeism
Message:
And his followers are into absenteeism from work.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:19:15 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
Ia anybody storing the information about M's shadowy corporate infrastructure on a permanent (well you know how the internet goes) website, or do I need to go into the forum archives, find it
and print it if I want to keep it handy for any last minute, unscheduled meetings with investigative reporters, federal agents, or other potentially interested parties with whom meeting might be mutually advantageous for themselves and the partisans of the ex-premie forum?

Am I funny when I'm serious or what?
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
Ive been printing it.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:05:35 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
Eventually, I'll pull the archives and try to assemble something. Gonna be a big job if I do a database to try to make the connections. For the quick and dirty I can have the posts available.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:10:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: I'd love to have them
Message:
on my website.

But I don't understand enough of the whole thing, and not familiar enough with it to edit the pages.

If anybody does feel like doing it, I'll have them on my site...
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:48:30 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
Honestly, Roger El Drek, they have your name written all over them. I wouldn't worry about cleanliness on this one. This is really a necessity.

In fact you can email me. Maybe I can work on it for you, starting in about a week.

I'm sure JM can link it or take it from there. Since the origin is this site, it doesn't matter much who makes it into a site. Ah, the internet.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:26:19 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
Great idea Run!
I'm especially interested in documenting All the active companies/corporations that have the Amtext address appearing anywhere on their corporate documents.
From what I've already seen, the number 1 address on these docs is the one for Robert Jacobs of course, at his law firm located at One Chase Manhatten Plaza, NY, NY.
Then the Amtext office at 11900 Biscayne Blvd, Suite 200 Miami, Fl.
What I'm suggesting is this. If we did this kind of address check on these docs, we might find out that its not just An Elan Vital cult, but at least in the US, its very much an ELAN VITAL-AMTEXT cult.
Amtext is that big a part of the cult's machine.
Someone... prove me wrong.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:00:22 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
If the most relevant info is in one place, including (perhaps) a synopsis of your Amtext posts and similar anecdotal info, it's possible that someone uninvolved personally would be interested in taking the ball. At least, that would make it a lot easier for them to consider.

The biggest advantage with Amtext is how much of an anecdotal account we have from you. We have similar accounts of DECA which seem to lead to Dettmer's current biz. Those are pretty helpful too.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 14:05:43 (EDT)
From: Irish Nanny
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Goliaths
Message:
As me friend Mary M would say, 'We'd be pissin in the wind to try and unravel the entire story.'

It seems our man Dettmers and his lard are Major League Players.

Below - Decrane Aircraft Holdings and Dettmers Inc.

FEI#: APPLIED FOR
NAME : DETTMERS INDUSTRIES, INC.
NH: 1
PRINCIPAL: 100 WILSHIRE BLVD., SUITE 940
ADDRESS SANTA MONICA, CA 90401
RA NAME : C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
RA ADDR : 1200 SOUTH PINE ISLAND ROAD
PLANTATION, FL 33324 US

CORP NUMBER: F98000003524 CORP NAME: DETTMERS INDUSTRIES, INC.
TITLE: CEOC NAME: DECRANE, R. J
2361 ROSECRANS AVE., SUITE 180
EL SEGUNDO, CA 90245
TITLE: SDT NAME: RANKIN, ROBERT A
2361 ROSECRANS AVE., SUITE 180
EL SEGUNDO, CA 90245
TITLE: D NAME: MACDONALD, R. G
2361 ROSECRANS AVE., SUITE 180
EL SEGUNDO, CA 90245

>>>> DECRANE AIRCRAFT HOLDINGS - DAHX<<<<
EXECUTIVE OFFICERS AND DIRECTORS

The following table sets forth information regarding the directors and executive officers of the Company as of December 31, 1996:

NAME AGE POSITION
--------------------------------- --- ----------------------------------------------------------
R. Jack DeCrane 50 Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer

R. G. MacDonald 66 Vice Chairman of the Board

Robert A. Rankin 44 Chief Financial Officer and Secretary

Roger L. Keller 52 Group Vice President of Systems

Charles H. Becker 50 Group Vice President of Components

R. G. MacDonald.................................................. 53,878(7) 2.1%
2361 Rosecrans Avenue, Suite 180
El Segundo, California 90245
Robert A. Rankin................................................. 18,220(8) *
2361 Rosecrans Avenue, Suite 180
El Segundo, California 90245
Charles H. Becker................................................ 14,178(9) *
2201 Rosecrans Avenue
El Segundo, California 90245
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:05:21 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: last minute party favors
Message:
I've had a couple ideas on what to do with the some
of the information.
I'm not going to mention them publically, but they aren't
the same as yours Runamok.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:38:08 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get smart! It's Text Mart!!
Message:
There is one very important question about Amtext that remains unanswered at least from my point of view, and that is as follows.
how is m's money(his yearly 'gift' or take of the company's profits) tranferred from Amtext's bank in Miami, and more importantly to where so that the end result is it ends up in m's hands?
Speaking of post cult syndrome and the challenge of remembering.
There's lots about Amtext that I've remembered only as a result of my participation here on these pages.
I've been able to put together snippets of information that come from others, or information from the downloads that Mary m is providing for us to jog my memory to recall certain bits of...well, more significant information.
Stuff I didn't share with you originally, mostly because I really wasn't paying that much attention during my stint as a bookbuyer with Amtext...I mean I was afraid the more I knew of the details, the more cause I would have for doubt, and being a good premie I didn't want that.
No. I didn't want to blow my premie dream by knowing TOO MUCH about Amtext! So I wasn't really paying as close attention as I should have. Consequently, now I have to work harder to remember some of the significants bits of the Amtext story.
But its working...and now I remember this.
At one point during our rides in the vans as we went to m's residence for the Amtext party, or perhaps on our return, someone asked the unanswered question I started this post with and there was a woman who answered it as follows.
There's a company in California called Text Mart...and its in that company's account that Amtext places the money for m.
I can even recall asking her 'Well how does m get it from Text Mart?' but she couldn't, or didn't want to answer or say anything more on the subject.
Even the little that she did tell me, it went in one ear and out the other. When I came here to the forum and I heard Jean Michel make references to Text Mart I didn't have a clue how that name is relevant to Amtext. I had never heard it referred to by anyone in the Amtext management team. That moment in the van was the ONLY time I ever heard that name TEXT MART referred to during my time as an Amtext book buyer.
Now who owns TEXT MART, in fact and in law?...that I don't have a clue...(at least for now(just kidding:)
But thats how the money goes kiddies...a good million bucks a year...from Amtext to Text Mart to m.
Thats what I'm saying. That and have a good week end y'all!
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:06:46 (EDT)
From: Rahab via Mary M
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Get smart! It's Text Mart!!
Message:
Hi Nim,

Did you catch this under the Rahab research? Apparently the owner of Text Mart is Amtext!

State ID Number: 97058824-0000
Type: CORPORATION
Date Started 06- -1997
Name: TEXT MART
Address: 2436 E CHAPMAN AVE FULLERTON
FULLERTON
CA
92631
Tax Area and Code: FULLERTON-30013
Title: Owner
Name: AMTEXT INC
SIC Codes: STATIONERY AND BOOK STORES
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:54:00 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Rahab via Mary M
Subject: Get smart! It's Text Mart!!
Message:
Amtext may be the owner of Text Mart...but what is there to own?
What does Text Mart do?
What is its function? Based on what I can recall hearing...it has something to do with the delivery of the money to m.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:31:01 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: I don't know...
Message:
Hi Nim,

I don't know how the $$$ gets channeled up to M.

Here's their Web Page:

Tacky Text Mart

I'll keep ya posted.

Luv,
Mare
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:56:00 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: I didn't know...
Message:
...that Text Mart was an actual operation. Well now we know, and amtext may have other outlets to distribute books which it itself owns,and/ or independent merchants with whom they're dealing.
Which confirms what I always suspected and which was often rumored by buyers...that Amtext was bypassing its wholesalers with its own distribution network.
I believe that in accordance with any agreement that Amtext has with its wholesalers, it is to be involved ONLY on the supply side of the business, that is supplying books to the wholesalers in Missouri and Nebraska, and leave the distribution to them.
Amtext may be in violation of the agreements and understanding it has with its wholesalers..if not the letter, then the spirit of those agreements by establishing a distribution network of its own and competing against its business partners(the wholesalers) against their back.
Not a nice thing to do...but then again...that's the way the lord does business.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:14:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: I'lle get rich doing nothin
Message:
We Offer:

Used Text Books
New Text Books
Reference Materials
Scantron Testing Materials
School Supplies
Book Buy Back

Mention This Web Site and Receive 10% Off
Used and New Text Books For Fall Semester

Our Hours Listed Below
8/23 - 8/31


Do you think they'll bother if I mention this on my website?
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 08:33:54 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'lle get rich doing nothin
Message:
Mention This Web Site and Receive 10% Off
Used and New Text Books For Fall Semester

Our Hours Listed Below
8/23 - 8/31

Do you think they'll bother if I mention this on my website?

Hi Jean Michel!
Mention Text Mart on YOUR site, and maybe YOU'LL get a 20% discount instead of only 10%?!
Just think, we can make a business of it, and use the extra 10% to finance more ex-premie stuff on the net.
Using m's business to finance our own!?
I love it.
Its like Robin Hood... take from the rich and give to the poor!
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 16:58:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: I'lle get rich doing nothin
Message:
I am starting a site. Can I play too? It seems easier than
the day trading my broker friend keeps after me to do.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:38:43 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Textmart IS Amtext
Message:
I did a California Secretary of State search for Amtext and it said that Amtext does business in California under the name Textmart. So it's just a DBA. The same people who own Amtext, own Textmart, because they are legally the same corporation.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:43:41 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: They Just Write A Check
Message:
I imagine Amtext just writes out a check to Prem Pal Singh Rawat, or some dummy corporation he owns. Maybe they use a Textmart check, but since they are legally the same corporation, it doesn't matter. There is nothing illegal about giving your after-tax profits away, as long as they really are yours. So, whoever the stockholders of Amtext are would agree to give the company's profits to a fraudulent lord of the universe, rather than taking a dividend. That's all that would need to happen.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:33:54 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Spamming the search engines
Message:
Using Altavista and requesting 'Maharaji', JM's site appears at number 86, and 'ex-premie.org' at 87. Until very recently ex-premie org always appeared on the first page.

Who determines the running order?

BTW: How do I get Larkin's forthcoming poetry page up there amongst M's many links to his own unbelievably, indescribably awful poetry page?

(larkin will include some nicely rhymed links to this site, of course)
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:41:21 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Spamming the search engines
Message:
Sir David posted recently to contact him if you want to take action about this.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 19:14:34 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Spamming the search engines
Message:
Thanks Run,

I haven't been keeping up on all the recent threads. It just seems strange how M managed to barge his way not just to the front of the queue but squeeze all the hostile sites out of the way at the same time - that's why I'd like to know how they determine the order of listing. Is it just to do with the frequency of the search word appearing on your page?

Surely anything he can do, we can do better..?
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 20:07:49 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: nigel
Subject: Spamming the search engines
Message:
Altavista is remarkably inconsistent in its choice of sites listed high up in the index. Also, sometimes you can register a URL with them and it will appear on the index the same day and sometimes it can take over a week and sometimes, never at all.

I reckon that there's a premie or group of premies somewhere who are spamming the search engines with Maharini's drivel web pages. To actually have so many web sites listed in the first forty of the Altavista index would have taken a lot of seperate registrations of individual URLs. Margarini wouldn't do it himself and someone's doing it for him, probably without him even knowing it unless he's wised up all of a sudden.

A funny thing is, is that he's changed the title of his web site so that it appears different to my 'Maharaji's Homepage' web site. So he must keep an eye on the search engine indexes to see what the opposition is doing.

There is a way, Nigel, to get just ONE web page high up on the index and I'll email you how it's done. But be warned, results don't come overnight and it can take a few weeks of spamming before a satisfactory result is reached.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:17:55 (EDT)
From: Roger Spammer Drek
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Spamming the search engines
Message:
WARNING: Long and a little technical.

Since I only portray a computer nerd on my successful television show, I'm mostly making the following up.

I'm not sure what the ranking is based on, but I'll speculate on it here.

First, I believe that Alta Vista (AV) uses meta tags to create its indices as opposed to actually searching each document for text (a full text search like www.hotbot.com and others.) AV also has a policy about spamming the search engine with repeated additions and it might be able to detect such and ignore them.

Correction: The AV site says that they do read the entire document.

Maybe the way AV works is it brings up the list of URLs that match the search and then counts (hit count for ranking) how many people goto a URL. Although, I might be dead wrong in that there is no message to the server upon exit or going to a new link. I'm fairly certain that when you move to a new server it will know where you came from. Some pages do have the ability to detect your exit and that is why I am throwing that out.

If such is true we could perhaps use AV to find Maharaji and goto ex-premie.org to bump up the count. It might be worth the try. I might even write a program to do that.

On AltaVista Feedback says the following:

1. Why did my site became lower in the results?

When surfers search for broad topic areas using one or two keywords, the search engine sometimes finds multiple pages containing equal or similar amounts of content. The ranking of these pages can change over time. Return to FAQs

Note: We do not sell result rankings to individuals or companies. You can contact our advertisers if you wish to purchase advertising space in the ad banner above specific results pages.


This might support my theory that sites are ranked by hit counts.

Also AV says this:

3. Why am I getting a message that says 'Too Many Urls Submitted'?

It's a good idea to submit only the top URL to our index. Our technology will crawl through your document and find the linked pages. To prevent abuse of our Add Pages tool, we limit the number of requests per day for each Web Developer.


Finally, AV says this:

4. How can I ensure a good ranking for my Web site?

The best way to improve the ranking of your web site is to be more specific about the content by using synonyms or locations in meta tags within your HTML document. It's not a good idea to use duplicate words multiple times, use keywords excessively, or include keywords that do not relate to the content of your document


Therefore, maybe the trick is to have additional variations on the spelling the word Maharaji like M has (see below.)

Here is the META tags that are used here at ex-premie.org:

META NAME='description' CONTENT='Presented by Ex-Followers of The Ex-Lord Of The Universe - Maharaji.'
META NAME='keywords' CONTENT='guru maharaj maharaji cult meditation premie elan vital divine mission prempal rawat'

Here's the META stuff from www.maharaji.org

meta http-equiv='PICS-Label' content='(PICS-1.1 'http://www.rsac.org/ratingsv01.html' l gen true comment 'RSACi North America Server' for 'http://www.maharaji.org/' on '1999.02.03T10:08-0800' r (n 0 s 0 v 0 l 0))'
meta name='description' content='Maharaji expresses his views on various topics. Site includes pictures and music.'
meta name='keywords' content='Maharaji, Maharaj ji, maharaji, maharaj ji, maharaji.org, Maharaji's message, Mahraji; Maraji'
meta name='Copyright' content='Maharaji.org - Copyright (c)1999, PureVoice, LLC. All Rights Reserved.'

There's a couple of things going on here:

1. Maharaji is using www.rsac.org and PICS-Label to give his site a rating to allow browsers that have rating filters to access his site. I don't imagine that Maharaji's site is listed as dirty or anything like that, but some of the ratings filters will not allow loading of an URL that is unrated.

Also, reading the info about ratings it allows ISPs and even countries to block loading an URL. For example, if China found Maharaji's information objectionable they could block it at a central chokepoint. Thus, Maharaji is avoiding any kinds of problems with that country.

2. I'm not sure if the keywords of Maharaji variations is causing his site to rank so high, but possibly. Of course, he is interested in having his illiterate premies finding his site no matter what.

Ok, I went to AV and it very well may be that BM should be BSM (Big Spamming Motherfucker.) And I say this because his poetry pages show up really high. Come on, you MFer.

Here's the AV suggested policy:

A small number of sites regularly submit a large number of pages to AltaVista in the hope of showing up often on our result pages. The usual technique is to submit pages with numerous keywords, or with keywords unrelated to the real content of the pages. Some people submit pages that present our spider with content that differs from what browsers will see. We strongly discourage the use of these techniques.

AltaVista is an index, not a storing place for pages of low or misleading information value. Attempts to fill it with misleading or promotional pages lowers the value of the index for everyone. Left unchecked, this behavior would make Web indexes and our search experience worthless. We will not allow URL submissions from customers who spam the index. In extreme cases, we will exclude all their pages from the index.


I suggest that we all write AV and ask them to look into this.

Please email us your comments, suggestions,
and questions at search-support@altavista.com.

For a more effective response, tell us:
1. if you want a reply
2. your email address and URL
3. the address of the page you were on when you
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 22:23:42 (EDT)
From: Sir David Hacker
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Roger Spammer Drek
Subject: Eureka!
Message:
I've just realised a brilliant way to get high up on the search index on Altavista. It's too good to mention here so I'll email it to you if you want. Email me first though since I don't have your email address.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:18:46 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David Hacker
Subject: I'll trust you guys!
Message:
To have my web-site where it's meant to be!
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:02:41 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Sir David Hacker
Subject: Eureka!
Message:
If this is something that you havent emailed me about,
please do.
I got wednesdays. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:27:15 (EDT)
From: Skunky
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Loud odor
Message:
Hey Dave,

If you fart loud enough, maybe you'll get what you desire.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:20:34 (EDT)
From: Miloochie
Email: None
To: Skunky
Subject: And if YOU...
Message:
...light a match, you'll see a thousands suns.
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:33:40 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Miloochie
Subject: Took the words right...
Message:
out of me own mouth!

Love,
Mary m
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:45:03 (EDT)
From: L
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
Couple of months ago we had a thread where everyone said how long they'd been a premie or and ex. Thought it might be interesting if everyone could post their biological birthdate; month and date only, and maybe their astrological sun sign if they know it. We could then see how many of what astrology signs are here and if any one has the same birthdate, and know when to post happy birthdays notices on this forum. Just a suggestion, I think it'll help us get to know eachother better. I'll start:

My Birthday is June 5th and I am a Gemini.

'L'
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:54:07 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
Trying to get a lot folks here to respond to something that deals with astrology will probably be like herding cats, but hey I'm game.

I am a Capricorn. January 4. I think Maharaji is a Capricorn too? And Richard Nixon???
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:03:01 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Helen
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
Helen; Margarini is a Sagittarius, born on the 10th Decenber 1957.

And my birthday; I accept gifts of money, only, preferably cash. I'll have to wait though since it's not till 8th November which was always a real drag for me when I was a premie because I always had my birthday slap bang in the middle of some wretched Hansjayanti 'festival?'.

Many a birthday treat I've had of listening to the Lord's words of wisdom and watching him dance topless. They used to tell me I was SO fortunate. Now I can admit that I hated every minute of it. Sorry folks but I never could appreciate a dancing tub of margarine.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 02:17:39 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
Hello !

Not a bad idea, though, personally, I wouldn't put 2 cents worth of trust in any astrological data... but the idea of getting a whole thread for moi alone on that day seems rather fun... and don't forget the flowers, I'll bring the champagne !

Born September 11, which makes me a Virgo...whatever that means !

Happy and living in Paris
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 20:58:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: L
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
Dear L,
I am another Gemini! My birthday is 6/2/55.
I love your idea.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:45:24 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: L
Subject: I'm 49 and a Cesarian.6/10/49
Message:
There must be a way to post the subject without having to write here...grrrr...bleeding computers...
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 12:16:59 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: L
Subject: Birthdays List
Message:
April 19, 1954, Feast of Alphege, Archbishop of Cantebury and Martyr, 1012.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:44:30 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: Happy_102@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: 1978 article
Message:
I now have a copy of the 1978 article by Foss and Larkin in Sociological Analysis: 'Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji.'

It's based on, as the authors describe it, two-and-a-half year of participant observation in DLM in the early 70s - going to satsang, festivals, receiving K - i.e. being a premie. The article covers the time BEFORE the rest of the Rats (oops, the Rawats) left the sinking ship. It has some nice analyses, other things appear a little old, but it is well worth reading and perhaps getting on the net. (I don't know about copyrights, though, which should be checked in that case.) I can send copies (hell, not to everybody, but to those who are very interested). I guess any bigger university library can provide you as well.

But if anyone wants me to send a snail-mail photocopy of the article, send me your address.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 16:09:25 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 1978 article, excerpts
Message:
Just to give some ideas about what's in it, I'll give a few excerpts:

'This paper is the result of a two-and-a-half year participant-observation study in which the authors analyze the basis of Guru Maharaj Ji's appeal to ex-movement participants in the early 1970s. The youth movement of the 1960s had generated a reinterpretation of reality that called into question conventional reality. When the movement declined, the movement interpretation had no possibility for implementation. Left between a reality they rejected and one that could not be implemented, ex-movement participants experienced life as arbitrary and senseless. Guru Maharaj Ji was deified as the mirror of an incomprehensible, meaningless universe.'

'...as the [1960s youth] movement waned in the early 1970s, the 'freak' or movement interpretation of reality which they constructed in opposition to dominant society became insupportable. Many former movement participants flocked to organizations which purported to solve the problems of youth caught between lives they dispised and lives they could not live. We call these organizations 'post-movement groups.'/.../ In this paper, we will explore the purpose and operation of one such group: the Divine Light Mission of the Teenage Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe, Guru Maharaj Ji. The Divine Light Mission was archetypal of the post-movement groups, since it was able to recruit from all segments of the youth culture population: political radicals, acid-head 'freaks' (cultural radicals), communards, street people, rock musicians, dropouts, and 'inhibited' types, who, upon flirtation with drugs or some other aspect of dissidence, recoiled in reaction.'

'The Divine Light Mission achieved prominence in 1973-74, receiving a substantial amount of coverage in the print and electronic media. Its festival in November 1973 - called Millenium '73 - was held in the Houston Astrodome and was the youth culture event of the year. It received coverage by local, national and international press and was the subject of a documentary shown on the public television network. As it achieved notoriety, the Mission alternatively became the focus of public outrage and ridicule. It stood accused of 'brainwashing' America's youth and turning them into 'zombies'. There were several instances in which the famed 'deprogrammer', Ted Patrick, attempted to kidnap devotees and 'deprogram' them. The remnants of the New Left claimed that the Mission was a 'proto-fascist' group with a potential for violence and terrorist activities. Guru Maharaj Ji's penchant for high priced consumer items, expensive cars, and self-contradictory behavior was chronicled in the 'People' or 'Newsmakers' sections of the newsweeklies and the New York Times. Televised network news programs often used the strange activities of the Divine Light Mission and Guru Maharaj Ji as 'kickers', light stories of humorous content to end the program.'

'By 1973, the Mission had developed a centralized bureaucracy with a rampant titleism and a penchant for office forms and organizational charts. Observation of the mission led us to the conclusion that the primary function of the staff was monitoring of its own activities. In effect, therefore, the Mission represented the ultimate parody of bureaucracy in the wider society - functionally rational but substantially irrational. Failures and bungling on the part of the Mission staff were repeatedly demonstrated, yet the symbolic forms of organizational seriousness and managerial competence had a compelling emotional appeal to both the Mission staff itself and to many potential converts.'

'The significance of the activities of the Mission lay in 'service' to and execution of the 'Divine Plan' of Guru Maharaj Ji, Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe. But Guru Maharaj Ji was himself a supremely incongruous divinity: chubby, squat, enamored of expensive cars and other gadgets, and in no way saintly in his dealings with followers.'

'Since the prospective premies came to the Mission in a state of confusion and despair, it maintained a strong emotional appeal by deifying the incomprehensibility of the material world, while at the same time providing an ideology which guaranteed that, through rigorous discipline, one would learn the ultimate meaning of life. However, in order to learn such an important (and eternal, we might add) lesson, one had to accept Guru Maharaj Ji as Lord of the Universe and learn to speak and think in satsang language.'

'Guru Maharaj Ji is held to be the personification, embodiment, and perfect mirror of the premie's experience of the universe. The Perfect Master is ambiguous, self-contradictory, absurd, capricious, self-indulgent, and arbitrary in everything he does - at least to all outward appearances. But he is hardly expected to be plausible or even to make any sense at all. 'He just is the way He is,' as one premie put it. /.../'He's always blowing minds. That's the whole trip, I guess.'

'Troubled premies are counseled to hand over their problems to Guru Maharaj Ji and say, 'Here, Lord, you take it, I can't handle this.'

'Guru Maharaj Ji is aware of his preposterous image and skilfully manipulates it. To the general public it is the height of ridicule to believe that a 'fat little rich kid' with a taste for a luxurious living and expensive gadgets - and who, on top of everything, married his secretary, a woman eight years older than himself - could be the Perfect Master...'

'The premie-to-be brings to the Mission a weak sense of social causality based on an image of society characterized by utter senselessness. Within the Mission he is exposed to the satsang language embodying a mode of thought that accords perfectly with his denial of causality./.../For causality one substitutes Grace and lila. Neither is 'earned' or 'deserved'. Neither can be analyzed according to any code of morality. Yet both sanctify randomness/.../Since the individual beforehand accepts senselessness as omnipresent, it does not take much of a leap to accept senselessness as Divinely ordained and either worship it with seriousness and humility or wallow in it as God sprays it all over him. (Guru Maharaj Ji is well known for his penchant for spraying his followers with paint, water, and silly foam. All such dousings are regarded by premies as important religious experiences.)'

'Even if a premie cannot easily detect Grace manifesting itself in his life, it is there nonetheless. The normative dimension of positive experiences in the mission subculture is apparent here. Whatever the premie's actual awareness of his experiences, he is encouraged to believe that grace, all-pervasive, is operating upon him and that he must soon experience unquestionable evidence of its presence.'

'Belief in the workings of Grace, as we have indicated, fragments what remains of the Knowledge-susceptible individual's already minimal sense of secular causality in society and psychodynamics. While the higher aspects of Grace may be presumed to operate according to unknown cosmic principles, its perceptible manifestations are rather 'chancy'...'

'If premies are thankful for the bestowal of Grace which they do not deserve then they should, according to formal logic, complain about lila which they do not deserve either. But formal logic yields to emotional logic; reactions to lila range from a quizzical shrug of the shoulders to positive relish. Even more than Grace, lila embodies a world-view of a capricious, absurd, and random universe...'

'For instance, Guru Maharaj Ji's enjoyment of a lavish material luxury (when celibacy and poverty were enjoined upon ashram residents) has from time to time benn taken for an enormous lila. It is not that the premies find anything the least strange in his collection of cars, planes, Divine Residences, tape machines, and other baubles.'

Excerpts from D. A. Foss, & R. W. Larkin (1978). Worshiping the absurd: the negation of social causality among the followers of Huru Maharaj Ji. Sociological Analysis, 39 (2), 157-164.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:37:06 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: 1978 article, excerpts
Message:
Great stuff, Happy!! Thanks.
Senselessless is divinely ordained!!
I shall wallow in senselessness as the Lord sprays colored water on me!! We lost our senses!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:10:14 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Colored Water (ot)
Message:
I would travel across the country to be sprayed with that glorious colored water by the Lord! He teased us with the 'Like the Rain' music video of blissed out premies being sprayed by Him and adding rose petals to the jets of water. To think that y'all were enjoying this and I, as a new premie, was a Delta Chi little sister planning fraternity parties at a big state university (how meaningful!).

Count your blessings, Helen!
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:03:40 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Festival envy
Message:
It wasn't fun, I'm tellin' ya, Denise!!
I know you've got 'festival envy' but imagine 10 premies crowded in a car driving 1000 miles in 12 hours and sleeping on the floor of some flea bag hotel and trying to have some kind of experience like trying to eek out a shit cause you're so constipated and you're broke and trying to conceal from your parents that your running around going to these festivals cause oh guru mrajey! and all your non-premie friends are trying to slap some sense into you and you are miserable but you are telling yourself that it's all soooooo beautiful. It wasn't fun.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:44:55 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: 1978 article, excerpts
Message:
Thanks Happy,

I'll call that stage of my life the 'Lila Years'.

Luv,
Mary M
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:27:50 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: journal copyrights
Message:
The journal who printed it most likely owns the copyright. Stuff like that is usually published without payment in order to further the work of its authors (i.e., help them get funded or recognition).

I would think the journal and authors would like it published, with the journal acknowledged (i.e., by permission of...).

Try contacting the journal.
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:48:52 (EDT)
From: Dr. Roger Drek
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: ***Best***
Message:
While I only play a Doctor when I'm prowling nightclubs for young women, I am a simple man with a 9th grade education working at a 7-11.

Roger's Best of the Forum
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Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 06:09:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: also on the EV-DLM Papers
Message:
Now for everybody to read:

The EV-DLM Papers Bibliography index page.

enjoy!
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