Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 45 | |
From: Apr 16, 1999 |
To: May 3, 1999 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 15:25:18 (EDT) __Zac -:- What are you selling? -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:05:27 (EDT) __L -:- A pizza with lots of toppings. -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:30:56 (EDT) ____Helen -:- Disagreement -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:59:02 (EDT) __bb -:- What do you want? -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 19:36:52 (EDT) ____Jim -:- I feel so sorry for you, Bill -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:23:45 (EDT) ______bb -:- limited time offer! -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 00:00:37 (EDT) __Jim -:- You're bluffing -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:11:01 (EDT) __Sir David -:- What do you want? -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:27:50 (EDT) ____Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:13:48 (EDT) ______L -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:29:49 (EDT) ________L -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 04:40:29 (EDT) __________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 06:30:41 (EDT) ____________L -:- My Apoligies...... -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 07:21:11 (EDT) ____________Helen -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:58:12 (EDT) __________Helen -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 07:52:02 (EDT) ____________Diz -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:40:06 (EDT) ______________Helen -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:00:21 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EDT) __________________Helen -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:23:58 (EDT) ____________________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:54:12 (EDT) ______________________Helen -:- Looking for god made me crazy -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:11:20 (EDT) ________________________Xan -:- Looking for god made me crazy -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:37:49 (EDT) __________________________Helen -:- Looking for god made me crazy -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:03:18 (EDT) ________________Diz -:- To Helen -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 08:15:25 (EDT) ______Miloochie -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 14:21:13 (EDT) ________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:06:36 (EDT) __________Xan -:- hello bb -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:18:58 (EDT) ____________bb -:- hello Xan -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:04:36 (EDT) ______________Xan -:- hello bb -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:26:16 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- p.s. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:36:48 (EDT) __________________bb -:- p.s. -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:11:52 (EDT) ______Jerry -:- What do you want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:50:43 (EDT) ________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 14:59:08 (EDT) __________Jim -:- Nonsense, Xan -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:59:21 (EDT) ____________Xan -:- Nonsense -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:39:01 (EDT) ______________Xan -:- p.s. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:18:11 (EDT) ________________Jim -:- p.s. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:31:21 (EDT) __________________Xan -:- p.s. -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:39:01 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- New-age word games -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:58:00 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- word games -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:05:04 (EDT) __________________Jim -:- new age evasion -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:26:11 (EDT) ______________Jerry -:- Not knowing -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:23:47 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- I double dare you -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 19:57:01 (EDT) __________________Jim -:- simplistic -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:29:12 (EDT) ____________________Xan -:- simple -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:39:26 (EDT) ______________________Jim -:- Can I get my money back? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:15:18 (EDT) ________________________Xan -:- Can I get my money back? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:35:41 (EDT) __________________________Jim -:- For the record -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:57:00 (EDT) __________________Jerry -:- What kind of dare is that? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:56:34 (EDT) __________Helen -:- Orgasm science -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:52:40 (EDT) __________Jerry -:- What do you want? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:37:41 (EDT) ____________Xan -:- What do you want? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:31:42 (EDT) ______________Mary M -:- What do you want? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:37:01 (EDT) ________________Jim -:- Yes, Mary, THAT's the question -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:01:43 (EDT) __________________Mary M -:- Yes, Mary, THAT's the question -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:15:19 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- do you want asparagus? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:43:58 (EDT) __What -:- do I want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:32:47 (EDT) ____Xan -:- do I want? -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:01:40 (EDT) ____Mary M -:- To What -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:10:59 (EDT) ____L -:- TO WHAT......... -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 04:00:38 (EDT) ______L -:- correction -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 05:45:22 (EDT) ____Miloochie -:- do I want? -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:50:01 (EDT) __Gail -:- Hey, Xan. What if there ain't -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 11:30:31 (EDT) ____Xan -:- Hey, Xan. What if there ain't -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:10:51 (EDT) __Jean-Michel -:- Discover AND use -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:03:37 (EDT) ____Xan -:- Discover AND use -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:26:02 (EDT) ______Miloochie -:- Discover AND use -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 13:46:50 (EDT) ________Xan -:- Discover AND use -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:10:25 (EDT) __________Miloochie -:- Discover AND use -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:04:05 (EDT) ____________Xan -:- discover -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:45:43 (EDT) ______________Jim -:- excuse me -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:09:36 (EDT) ________________Xan -:- excuse me -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:08:32 (EDT) JHB -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:16:04 (EDT) __Katie -:- Thanks, JHB (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:39:10 (EDT) __QP_SUPPORTER -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 20:46:28 (EDT) ____ap -:- think I am going to be sick(nt -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:05:15 (EDT) ____Mary M -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:07:09 (EDT) ______Roger E. Drek -:- the bigger issue -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:41:40 (EDT) ________Roger E. Drek -:- delusional QP -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:52:48 (EDT) ____Nim -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:24:06 (EDT) ______Stevei -:- Nim..Can you expand on above -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:11:12 (EDT) ________Nim -:- Stevei, your a great guy but.. -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 18:24:54 (EDT) __________Mary M -:- Chuckie Cheese -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 19:00:48 (EDT) ____________Nim -:- Chuckie Cheese -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:18:46 (EDT) ____John Hammond-Smyth -:- I'm with you ALL the way! -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:36:03 (EDT) ____JW -:- Idiot Answers -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 00:19:13 (EDT) ____Curious -:- to QT_SUPPORTER -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:23:46 (EDT) ____JHB -:- He DID Change the Techniques!! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:54:44 (EDT) ______Mahatmaji -:- You guys are confused! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:49:54 (EDT) ________JHB -:- You guys are confused! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 13:05:36 (EDT) __________nigel -:- Theakston's (ot) -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 09:29:04 (EDT) ________Zombie -:- Yes, Master (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:59:15 (EDT) __________Helen -:- HA HA (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 17:49:35 (EDT) ______Jim -:- You're in your mind, John -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:02:26 (EDT) ________JHB -:- You're in your mind, John -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:20:34 (EDT) ______JHB -:- He DID Change the Techniques!! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:03:31 (EDT) ____JHB -:- He DID change the Commandments -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 05:01:32 (EDT) __Billy -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:05:16 (EDT) ____Sir David -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:53:27 (EDT) ____Jim -:- Billy, that's as dumb as ever -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 00:40:56 (EDT) ____Curious -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:45:58 (EDT) ____QP_SUPPORTER -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 08:56:15 (EDT) ______JHB -:- Issues requiring answers -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:54:37 (EDT) ______Roger Missionary Drek -:- Let Freedom Ring! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:57:07 (EDT) ____Nim -:- laughable, Billy! Ha HA !! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 18:42:50 (EDT) ____Nim -:- Pretend answers ,Billy! -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:36:01 (EDT) ______Billy -:- Not to me -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:43:11 (EDT) ________Helen -:- Enjoying yourself with M -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:11:26 (EDT) __________Billy -:- Enjoying yourself with M -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:58:20 (EDT) ____________Helen -:- Enjoying yourself with M -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:49:53 (EDT) ____________Nim -:- We know who you are, Billy! -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:13:30 (EDT) ______________Helen -:- Did you see my post -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:26:13 (EDT) ________________Nim -:- Yes Helen, I did... -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:41:42 (EDT) __________________Helen -:- Yes Helen, I did... -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 23:29:41 (EDT) ______________Billy -:- You don't have the slightest.. -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:47:12 (EDT) ________________JHB -:- Billy - Your Response -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:45:55 (EDT) ____________bb -:- to Billy -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:55:34 (EDT) ______________Billy -:- to Billy -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 16:54:15 (EDT) ________________bb -:- to Billy -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 01:33:21 (EDT) ____________Nim -:- BBBUllshit BBBilly!! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:16:12 (EDT) ______________Jethro -:- M's Australian gardener -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:14:43 (EDT) ____________Nim -:- MMore BBullshit BBilly! -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:25:58 (EDT) ______________Jethro -:- Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:17:22 (EDT) ________________Billy -:- Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:13:23 (EDT) __________________Jethro -:- Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:54:44 (EDT) __________________Nim -:- Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 10:24:44 (EDT) ______________Helen -:- MMore BBullshit BBilly! -:- Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:33:25 (EDT) ________Dr Reich -:- M-M-Maharaji -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:16:22 (EDT) __________Nim -:- thanks, Dr. Mengeles.... -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:51:14 (EDT) ______Stevei -:- Nim...write it for the record -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:07:23 (EDT) __Zac -:- My sentiments exactly -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:07:50 (EDT) Premmey -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:15:45 (EDT) __Stevei -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:20:18 (EDT) __JHB -:- ARTI -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:22:01 (EDT) Liz -:- remonve All Doubts -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:14:38 (EDT) __Liz -:- Whoops -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:17:39 (EDT) ____Mary M -:- A Wonderful Whoops -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:23:41 (EDT) __JW -:- Key Point -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:06:27 (EDT) ____Diz -:- Key Point -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:42:14 (EDT) ______Seeking God not Maharaji -:- Key Point -:- Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:50:52 (EDT) ______Denise -:- Key Point -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:29:10 (EDT) ______JW -:- Allowable Doubts -:- Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:30:54 (EDT) __bb -:- remonve -:- Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:09:58 (EDT) ____Liz -:- remonve -:- Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 00:07:25 (EDT) |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 15:25:18 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What do you want? Message: Does anyone here want to find a way to spiritually evolve that is not dependent on person, organization or belief system? It is possible to be in a state of discovery of your own essential power and love. We've had a national tragedy of kids murdering kids. I read all the varying ideas expressed in this forum about the nature of the problem. We can't even agree on that. Possibly because of your disillusionment with Maharaji you have given up on the idea of a universal truth. If so, to my mind that is the worst effect of your history with him. In my own journey Post-Maharaji I've discovered that there are a variety of routes to self-realization - the simple recognition of my nature beyond concept and definition. Consciousness is the same for everyone but the ways to discovering it are as varied as the people. It all depends on what you want. Your life is is just about you, after all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:05:27 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Xan Subject: What are you selling? Message: Can't an individual live a moral, ethical life without working on the after death scenario? My experience of life is wonderful. What do you think you have that I or anyone else doesn't have? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:30:56 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: Xan Subject: A pizza with lots of toppings. Message: It appears you mean well Xan, but I think you should ask the kids what do they want? It's the next generation that has to be reached. Your beautiful spiritual experience or even mine is not going to prevent another tragedy. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the Denver-Boulder area who are spiritually evolved and that did nothing for these kids and this tragedy. I've met alot of people here who radiate love and light. Who are into eastern methods, new age, etc. and as I've stated in my post below; Denver used to be a premie heaven, but we still experience the same bullshit as everyone else. I've found alot of self-realized people to be very arrogant and obnoxious, sort of like M. They think they know it all and because they're having this wonderful experience of consciousness, they believe that everyone else is beneath them. I sometimes wonder, if these people are so realized why can't they accept others as they are, with different opinions and lifestyles other than their own. How do you know consciousness is the same for everyone? Why is it that spiritual people believe that everyone is suppose to be spiritual? It's probably hard for you to accept that a person can be supremely happy without self-realization? I think everyone in the discussion below agrees that guns caused this tragedy, not our lack of self-realization. I don't understand how the realization of the people in this forumn could remedy what happened in Colorado? It appears most of us are'nt in Colorado, I am. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:59:02 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: Disagreement Message: I agree with L's comments! And regarding disagreement--to me it shows the diversity of opinion here. We're not all the same, we're not ONE. It does get tedious at times how we bicker about things here, but that is LIFE. I'd rather have the freedom to disagree than feel pressure to think the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 19:36:52 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: You know xan, we were getting to this question on the other forum and then you all went into a flurry of posting so I sat back. In the self realization theory, it does end up like you post. 'it is all about you' Do you lean also on the view that the rest of the bulk of the self realization folks have? In this one area I mean, that a non self concious 'oneness' exists and we are just to assume a mental stance that 'we are it' or 'i am that' and then we are 'realizing who we really are'. Is this your view also? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:23:45 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: bb Subject: I feel so sorry for you, Bill Message: Bill, For how long now have I watched you try to get someone to talk about this 'oneness' thing, this extra-corporeal consciousness thing? You ask premies, ex's and even people like Shp. But, Bill, no one seems to know what you're talking about! Or, if they do, they never get into it at any level that you apparently look forward to. Bill, Bill, Bill. Remember the old tv show, 'What's my Line'? The panelists (including -- I can't believe I remember this -- Kitty Carlisle and the irrepresable Orson Bean) asked a bunch of questions but, if they were getting nowhere, they'd eventually just flip over all the cards and be done with it. Bill, it's time to flip over the cards. Give up this wooly idea of some God out there. Come over to the sunny side. It's frightful, sad and depressing but, hell, at least your Sundays are your own and you can put whatever you want in your body. Plus, you get to read a bunch of neat books without flinching. Ready yet? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 00:00:37 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Jim Subject: limited time offer! Message: Love your post Jimmie, I did think CD or shp would find it interesting but no go. Xam may bite but I might as well retire that approach fer lack of interest. Limited Time Offer: Pope john paul george ringo, announced that the year 2000 would be a special holy year in which catholics can obtain special 'indulgences' for thier sins that act, in a sense, as wild cards to speed up thier acension to heaven. According to a policy that dating back to the 16th cantury, catholics who visit the sick, or the jailed, or contribute to charities or who fast from smoking or drinking for as little as one day, may get special dispensation as long as the act is accompanied by pentinence. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:11:01 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: You're bluffing Message: Xan, If I was 19 again I might think you knew what youse talking about but I'm not and I don't. In truth, you don't know dick about consciousness. You're just guessing. Go look in the mirror. What do you see? A head with a face on it, right? What's in that head? Do you know? A brain, right? Ever seen one? Yeah? On TV maybe? Me too. How does that brain work? Do you know? How much do you know? Tell me about it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:27:50 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Everyone is realising themselves. That's what life does to us all. There is no special group of people who are any more realised than others. Such a concept is a falacy. Where is God? Is he a conceptual being that is above us? I think God is other people and us too. There is no God to worship and there is no spirituality to attain, in my view, because all of life is IT and nothing is exempt. Have you ever sat with a dying person? Have you loved a person who is dying and beyond all hope in this world and yet they have inspired you with their smile? Have you felt love and compassion sear like a pain in your heart? That is very basic and down to earth and most of us feel that from time to time. There is no monopoly on love - everybody knows it. It's the one thing everyone understands including those who hate. The biggest mistake that people make is to think life has to be different. Some airy fairy spiritual thing. I like to keep my feet planted firmly on the ground these days and disregard all spiritual concepts. They never did me any good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:13:48 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: All Subject: What do you want? Message: Dear All Here is my list of what I am Not talking about, based on your responses. I am not selling. I am not suggesting that unity of being means everyone thinks alike. I am not describing a mental stance - thinking about 'oneness' or anything like that. I am not talking about 'having a beautiful experience.' I am not telling you what I think you Should want. I am not saying some group of self-realized people are superior in some way. I am not suggesting there is a way of life that is different or better than however you are living now. And, I am most definitely Not guessing about consciousness. I think that's all the Not's so far. In fact it is a great deal easier to describe what this is Not about than what it is about. But 'difficult to describe' doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Lots of our experiences are difficult or impossible to describe - orgasm, intimacy, an moment of beauty, a moment of anguish. What if, despite your disillusionment and the current trend in science to attribute our entire human nature to brain chemistry, there is a way to know yourself as consciousness/awareness? What difference would it make? I only speak from my experience. The difference it makes for me is that externally my life is about the same, but my experience of myself as Presence without boundaries keeps deepening. It is a most amazing adventure. And the price? All I give up is my ideas - the identity I have thought I was, my beliefs and projections. What I trade it for is beyond ideas, but not exotic. It is simple and present now. You're right. Those moments of caring and of stillness that everyone has. That's it. And that's the difference it can make in someone's response to people and situations...consciousness itself is also compassion. Why bother talking about it? Because I have a heart urge to let anyone who wants to know, this is a real and personal possibility for them. Why would I want to take anyone's word for it that this is or is not so? Maharaji and Jim would be equally telling me where It's at. I want to know for myself. What do you want? If you are content with your life, fine. If there is something that tugs at you - some question, some longing, then I'm here to say, don't let anyone tell you to give up on it. Including yourself. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:29:49 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Very nice, I'm happy for you Xan. I am more than content with my life and the journey I travel is uniquely my own. Thanks for sharing your journey. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 04:40:29 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: So I thought I'd entertain some of what you've been posting, a friend sent me some material on 'The Ageless Wisdom.' Excerpts: There has been a marked trend for those of a spiritual inclination to seek escape from the struggles and strife of ordinary life and find solace in a higher reality. The unfortunate consequence of such and approach has been that spiritual inclined individuals have often neglected the physical plane, while materialistic individuals have tried to dominate and control it. The slower and more natural path is to just be a good person and try to do the right things. The consciousness expansion path is a more intense approach where a person can become overstimulated and unbalanced. An example would be a religous leader who begins as a servant of higher values and ends up exploiting people in the name of God. Sane and balanced living is necessary to maintain psychological equilibrium. People in the west have become moreso aware of eastern yoga and practices, than their own western yoga. Eastern nations, with all of their practices, have faired no better than western nations. The universal process is neither east nor west, but it is uniquely your own process. Sometimes it is better to take the slower path, building character and ethical values along the way, instead of racing for consciousness expansion while still having not developed ethics and sound judgement. The above comes from a lenghty article which was sent to me. The whole consciousness expansion movement reminds me of the drug culture, indeed for lot's of westerners it began with hallucinagens. It has alot of the same dynamics; it's and experience that you have to have first hand, I have a strong urge to turn you on to this, etc. these are the same things said in the drug culture. A couple of good books on the subject are: Craving for Escasty, by Harvey Milkman and The Natural Mind, by Andrew Wilder. I wonder also Xan, do you have children, most people who talk the way you do don't have kids, if so how do you relate your 'consciousness' practices to child rearing? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 06:30:41 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: L Subject: What do you want? Message: L I like the part about a universal yet unique way that each of us evolves. As for kids, I have two sons in their early 20's. We are good friends and do interesting things together now and then. I guess we all have ideas about spirituality and when someone starts talking it 'sounds like' whatever our particular associations are. I don't do 'consciousness practices'. The discovery I'm in is personal and simple. I've learned that knowing my 'natural state' beyond thought is available in this present moment - not something to 'practice' to achieve. In the silent space between my thoughts and all around and permeating what I think of as me is just Presence.... Wholeness. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 07:21:11 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: Xan Subject: My Apoligies...... Message: I stand corrected and have been accused of stereotyping people before. I understand your experience of the Eternal Now. I just don't feel a need to be a missionary about it. I enjoy the Hermetic Sciences; The Lips Of Wisdom Are Closed Except To The Ears Of Understanding. Sometimes we come on too strong with our urges. There is a art and science to living. If one is going to take the path you're suggesting, then as Buddhism would say, find action in non-action for it is better to see yourself clearly than be concerned of how others see you. Everyone is going to make it anyway, whether they want to or not. The universe is in total balance, and we belong to the universe. The measure of the swing to the right will equal the swing to the left, rhythm compensates. Okay, so 'L' to earth, 'L' to earth. It's necessary for me to keep my feet on the ground, but I can appreciate where you're at. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:58:12 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Hi Xan (is that short for Xanadu)??? When you say your experience is deepening everyday exactly what do you mean? When someone says something like that alarm bells go off because it sounds like premie-speak. Sorry I don't think you meant to sound that way, I'm just telling you MY reaction. I think I get nit picky & specific about language and what people really mean because when we were premies we kind of went on automatic pilot and did not say exactly what we meant. Perhaps language had another purpose in premie-dom, to be part of a group experience and to find oneness with the group. For me, the 'experience' that is deepening every day is appreciation for my family and my life, for nature, for other relationships, food and shelter, the ability to think, breathe, walk etc. when I look at the stars, etc..I do feel a connection with the universe or with God, etc, but I certainly don't have that experience all the time. and it's not like I am meditating to feel that appreciation, it just IS in those moments. We all have those moments, those simple moments that give us the strength to carry on through the difficult times. I wouldn't say my experience of God as something infinitely cosmic is deepening but my appreciation for the simple joys of life is deepening. I think that this is partly a function of growing older and realizing that this is it, I have one life, and I'd better not waste it because before I know it it will be gone. Now I sound like a premie, no? What do you think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 07:52:02 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: L Subject: What do you want? Message: Loved that quote, L. That is very sound thinking. Also very true that drug culture dynamics influenced 'I gotta get a guru ' consciousness in the West. Looking forward to more of your posts Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:40:06 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen, Xan, L, Robyn, Sir Subject: What do you want? Message: Loved your posts, Sir D and L (the one with the quote) Xan, I do get very cautious when people talk 'that way', it does bring back memories - some good, many not so good at all. But I appreciate your concern to offer something which you have good reason to think we might want. Well, we all came to MJ for something, and I know for me it was partly to do with ... being able to connect with... I dunno. I really don't know if I want to get into any more internal stuff. I still can feel the flow of whatever-it-is which I used to call Holy Name - and I do appreciate it. But I sure don't want to go floating off into the clouds again. I, like Sir D and L, really want to get my act together in the mundane old physical world. (Yes, L, I have kids and agree they ground you, and that that's all to the good.) I WOULD like to separate out the positives of meditation from the crap, particularly from its ownership by MJ (or any other guru). I guess I have severe doubts about whether that can be done. Seems like 'spiritual' experiences attract leaders and groups which denigrate thought, discussion, community, social action, self-determination (unless the 'self' is the one they define for you)...things which I think are important. By the way, I DON'T think my life is just about me! And I'm really not interesting in following any teacher who expects me to subjugate my own understanding to their higher one. You words about letting go of concepts set off alarm bells for me. I'll keep my concepts, unless and until I'm convinced they should change. Don't know if you're still reading, Xan. Have I wiped myself out? So, if I was interested in finding out more about what you have discovered, how would you tell me about it? I'm wondering why you're saying 'I've got the goodies behind my back' rather than holding them out where we can all see them. (I can think of a range of reasons, some quite understandable, so this isn't necessarily a shot at you.) Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:00:21 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Diz Subject: What do you want? Message: Hi Diz, Great post. I think heaven on earth is (for me) taking care of my home and family, doing work that hopefully helps others, and trying to be a good person to my friends, neighbors, etc. Beyond that I don't know!!! The idea of God is helpful to me... But people don't need God in order to be of good character and to be good people-- Yes the mundane day to day stuff has to have some meaning!! Otherwise what is the point? As premies we BADLY neglected the day to day stuff, and it snuck up and bit us on the butt!! It's biting us HARD!! So I understand yours and Sir D's reluctance to deal in airy fairy terms about anything anymore!! Maybe that's great though--maybe it's the lesson we had to learn--a whole generation of us. Great as always to hear from you , dear Diz Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 14:59:54 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Helen et al Subject: What do you want? Message: Dear Folks, I appreciate your responses and feedback. This is an opportunity for me to find ways of talking about what's happening in my life because I rarely attempt to express it at all. L, I do trust urges that come from my heart. I'm not sure how to be more clear about this but I'll give it a try. Forgive me if I sound like the same old cult bullshit, but there are only so many words available. The experiences that people have of connection, peace, sweetness at moments when in nature or with someone close - those are the glimpses. When I would have those moments I thought of them as the best of the wide variety of things I felt. Now I am recognizing them as not something I experience but as me - my essential self, beyond personality. A quantum shift in my identity. These moments break through the ordinary trains of thought and feeling. This makes me want to confront my usual patterns of thinking because when I do my awareness of whole and beautiful Beingness increases. It becomes more constant, less dependent on circumstance and more of my personal identity yields to it. Some people call it Self as opposed to self. I hope you are not hearing me say I think the way you are doing your lives is wrong in any way. I appreciate your honesty with yourselves and each other and your desire to correct where you lives went askew as premies. My 9 years with Maharaji were also my years of young-child rearing which saved me from the nuttiness of the ashram life. I did have a bunch of spiritual concepts to confront and delete. My passion for freedom whatever it took, lead me to some surprising places. I have no controlling leader or group. I found people and ideas that helped me on my way to freedom in a real and practical way. I'm for whatever works. I'm happy for this chance to express myself. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:23:58 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: I understand better exactly what you are saying now. Thank you for clarifying!!!! I believe that the Self is one aspect of the whole human being and that being a human being has many dimensions to it. Human life seems to have so much real physical stuff attached to it that I don't think God would play a game of illusion or Maya with us so that we would have to try so hard to find God. I think God is in relationships and loving each other and in being a good person. But I know what you are saying--there are glimpses of another reality, but I don't know if trying to be there all the time is a worthwhile pursuit. perhaps this is all there is and trying to be in another reality turns out to be a big waste oftime??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:54:12 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Helen Subject: What do you want? Message: My sense is that the human being is one aspect of the Self. Sort of like we humans used to think that planet Earth was the center of the universe and it was only when we were able to see the larger and yet larger perspective that we have come to recognize how small our little world really is in the universe. When I used to strive to be in that other reality I was in constant struggle. These days I'm discovering the essential reality of myself is Here. It's more subtle than the people, places and things of our human world but In The Same Place. All it takes is a slight shift in my attention and this wholeness is present. For me the worthwhileness is in my unyielding passion for it. In a more general way I can't imagine a greater benefit for people than knowing the permanence and contentment of their own Self in a world where everything changes. I hope I'm not triggering too much 'That just sounds like...' responses in people. I'm trying to speak freshly and only from my personal experience. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:11:20 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: Looking for god made me crazy Message: No you are not triggering that response in me...I think that God is sort of unknowable if there is a God soooo all we can do is to try to be good people. At times if I come into contact with something greater than myself, to me, it is a gift from God but I don't go looking for it. That made me crazy and imbalanced. I have a different idea of spiritual now, it's kinda influenced by reading about Judaism and it deals with how we behave towards one another. you explained yourself well and I wish you all the best in your spiritual journey, Xan Cool name! Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:37:49 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Helen Subject: Looking for god made me crazy Message: Helen Thank you for your integrity and receptivity. It's funny how I can feel a heart-connection with someone through this internet thing. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:03:18 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: Looking for god made me crazy Message: Thanks, Xan. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 08:15:25 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: Helen Subject: To Helen Message: Hi Helen honey Always great to hear from you, too. Hope all is well with you and yours. Love, Diz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 14:21:13 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Xan, I liked your responding post. I mean this is hardly the place to preview an Off-Broadway show of the same nagging question(s) before taking it to the Great White Way. It's about as tough a crowd for this kind of issue as anyone could encounter anywhere. Those who are the most staunch atheists, scientific pragmatists, etc. came, or come, to any conclusion through a driving desire to KNOW SOMETHING -- through a 'wonder' of some kind. Right? Interesting. I hate those television shows that are now revealing all the magic tricks that magician's do. 'Just takes the fun out of the entertainment. I do a couple of little illusions (simple slight of hand) and have learned to never do it again when they ask, 'Oh, let me see that again.' And I always want to keep an open mind to greater discoveries of ourselves. I think at the heart of being a good scientist is always keeping the door open to new possibilities, more advanced conclusions, etc. Besides, if it doesn't involve some scummy tramp of a guru, it can be just plain one of the 'funs' of life. Stimulating, engrossing. Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:06:36 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: What do you want? Message: Miloochie Yeah! Helen, p.s. Xan is just Xan - no meaning at all. X. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:18:58 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: bb Subject: hello bb Message: bb Last week it seemed like we were going to go around about some questions on the other forum. I'm disappointed that you stepped back. Wanna talk? e-mail? chat? I think it would be fun. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:04:36 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Xan Subject: hello Xan Message: Sure, how about sunday night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:26:16 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: bb Subject: hello bb Message: What time? Before 7:30pm or after 11:30pm EDT okay by me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:36:48 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: XanM@worldnet.att.net To: bb Subject: p.s. Message: bb On second thought how about if we e-mail for starters. Now what were those questions? Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:11:52 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Xan Subject: p.s. Message: ok Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:50:43 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Lots of our experiences are difficult or impossible to describe - orgasm, intimacy, an moment of beauty, a moment of anguish. You just DID describe all those things. An orgasm is an orgasm. You described it perfectly. We all know what you're talking about. No further description is necessary. Intimacy is intimacy, a moment of beauty is a moment of beauty, a moment of anguish is a moment of anguish. Don't shortchange words. If they refer to common experience, they serve us very well. It's just a matter of your command of the language and how able you are to make yourself understood. What if, despite your disillusionment and the current trend in science to attribute our entire human nature to brain chemistry, there is a way to know yourself as consciousness/awareness? Xan, I agree with you that 'I' am my consciousness. It's quite obvious that this is so. Why? Because without consciousness how would I know that I am? Very simple, very logical. But where does consciousness come from? Do you know? You know that you have it, but do you know why? Hmmm? It very well may be, and if you've done some reading in neuroscience, you would find it not only possible, but plausible and probable that consciousness is very much so the interaction of signals being sent from our senses, that they receive from outside themselves in the form of electromagnetic waves, and the chemistry of our brains (whew! long sentence). You should check it out. I think you'd find what neuroscience has discovered to be revealing and fascinating. All I give up is my ideas - the identity I have thought I was, my beliefs and projections. What I trade it for is beyond ideas, but not exotic. It is simple and present now. Well, if all these things are rooted in ignorance and in the way of who you really are then it would be wise to give them up. But if you're suggesting that you keep it as simple as saying 'I am consciousness', you're denying yourself the fulfillment of your inate curiosity. Where did your consciousness come from? Don't you want to know? ...consciousness itself is also compassion. I disagree. Consciousness itself has no properties other than consciousness. Compassion is an emotion that FILLS consciousness but it is not consciousness. A man can be filled with hate as well as compassion and be just as conscious, if not as loving. If you are content with your life, fine. If there is something that tugs at you - some question, some longing, then I'm here to say, don't let anyone tell you to give up on it. Including yourself. Thanks for the inspiration, Xan. I pick up good vibes from your posts even if I disagree with your 'new-age' style. I enjoyed chatting with you on the premie forum and was happy when I saw you posting here. Hope to see more of you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 14:59:08 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: What do you want? Message: 'Don't shortchange words. If they refer to common experience, they serve us very well.' We know what an orgasm is, but even for myself there are differences in my experience of it one time to the next, and I would not want to assume I knew your experience which is personal and immediate to you, even if I thought I knew the meaning of your words. I have studied neuroscience some as well as neurolinguistics. The latter particularly describes the unique effect language has on each individual. Language is learned and associated with individual experiences which may or may not actually be as common as we assume. Each of us has a unique history which is the context for all our perceptions and interpretations. Two people witnessing the same event would most likely Not have the same interpretation of it, and may not even give the same 'factual' description. Misunderstanding is rampant among humans. Sometimes I'm amazed that we manage to connect through language at all and happy for those rare moments when we do. 'it [is] not only possible, but plausible and probable that consciousness is very much so the interaction of signals being sent from our senses.' If consciousness was dependent on the senses we would not experience it at times when the senses are not active, i.e. dreamless sleep, near-death experiences, deep meditation. Moreover, I suggest that the body (brain & senses) is not the source of consciousness, being a birth-death phenomenon, but that the body exists within and as an effect of consciousness, which the senses, intellect and other faculties express. Since you know that consciousness is aware of itself it must also be aware of its source. Wouldn't it make sense then to follow consciousness itself back to its own source rather than attempting to discover source by looking at effects through the use of those effects? I know that some brain scientists are saying those non-sensory experiences are the effect of electro-chemistry. I have often observed scientists to determine the boundaries of a system and then define anything that occurs outside those boundaries in the terms they have accepted within in. It's a lot like religion in that way. I'm not against science by any means. I am for questioning assumptions. It's only reasonable. 'But if you're suggesting that you keep it as simple as saying 'I am consciousness', you're denying yourself the fulfillment of your inate curiosity. Where did your consciousness come from? Don't you want to know?' Actually I keep it even simpler than that. Since consciousness itself is non-conceptual and non-verbal I can just BE it in present awareness. Within that I learn things, such as I'm learning how I can talk to people about it. It was my curiousity that lead me to want to know the source in the first place, and I am in an adventure of the discovery of that continuously. I find no boundaries. I might clarify that it is not so much the letting go of specific ideas that has opened up this discovery for me but letting go of the processes of thinking. I have learned that consciousness itself is silent so when I let silence increase in my mind... well, find out for yourself. And, obviously I still do think. The context has changed. Figure and ground have reversed. It can be frightening to loosen our reliance on whatever thinking and feeling modes we have developed to survive and succeed in this unpredictable world. But if you really want to know what lies outside your personal system, well a mind willing to experience the unknown is essential. 'Compassion is an emotion that FILLS consciousness but it is not consciousness. A man can be filled with hate as well as compassion and be just as conscious, if not as loving.' I would not define compassion as an emotion, though it may sometimes be expressed that way. Seeing from the side of pure consciousness, unity is its nature. Seeing from the side of the human mind, diversity and separation are natural. Unity reaches out, you might say, to that which believes itself to be apart from it. That's compassion. The ones I've seen who are conscious and not compassionate have some need for individual power - a belief in their unique separateness and therefore not fully conscious of the original state of unity. Jerry, the label 'new age' makes me twitch. But style is just style. I enjoy you too. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 21:59:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: Nonsense, Xan Message: Each of us has a unique history which is the context for all our perceptions and interpretations. Two people witnessing the same event would most likely Not have the same interpretation of it, and may not even give the same 'factual' description. Misunderstanding is rampant among humans. Sometimes I'm amazed that we manage to connect through language at all and happy for those rare moments when we do. This is absurd, Xan. Absolutely dumb. You're just posturing to make some otherwise impossible new-age point. In real life you are no more 'amazed' than the rest of us that we all understand each other to the extent we do. 'Rare moments' indeed! Language has a hold on our minds because language is central to the very faculty of mind itself. You're trying to do a Houdini here hoping to escape from language so you can escape from reason so you can hide in your dreams. If one could somehow quantify all the ways language works and balance that score against the ways it deceives us, I'm sure you'd find the scales tipped to languages credit beyond any real comparison. You know this is true. Everyone does. If consciousness was dependent on the senses we would not experience it at times when the senses are not active, i.e. dreamless sleep, near-death experiences, deep meditation. And you say you've studied a bit of neuroscience? When and where? Your point above is hopelessly naive and I know that with just a bit of common sense. The brain has a still-mysterious but uncontroversial capacity to remember, remember? Why don't you consider this in your 'reasoning'? Moreover, I suggest that the body (brain & senses) is not the source of consciousness, being a birth-death phenomenon, but that the body exists within and as an effect of consciousness, which the senses, intellect and other faculties express. Based on what? Since you know that consciousness is aware of itself it must also be aware of its source. Do you always do this? I can think of all sorts of ways consciousness could be aware of itself yet not know the mystery of its own function or derievation. You're talking through your hat. Wouldn't it make sense then to follow consciousness itself back to its own source rather than attempting to discover source by looking at effects through the use of those effects? In a word, no. It wouldn't make sense at all. I really wonder, what exactly have you ever read about neuroscience? I think you're bluffing. Oh I'm not going to go on. It's too nice out and my girlfriend wants me to meet her for a quick bite before our band practise. I just want to say that you make so many outrageous assumptions from which you make astounding leaps of logic. But then I guess when someone's in the midst of 'letting go of the process of thinking' all sorts of weird shit's gonna happen. I'd only warn you to try to avoid the obvious hypocrisy of being someone who claims to have a rational basis for rejecting rationality. That's really lame. You're doing it here in this post. Do yourself a favour and stop it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:39:01 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nonsense Message: Jim I'm wondering how you came to exalt the intellect over the many other aspects of the human construct. Reading in neuropscience and agreeing with its conclusions about the nature of consciousness are two different things. I have a practical mind and I put considerable study into learning how the mind works and what can be done to effect change for people who want it. I wonder how you concluded that I reject rationality. It sort of proves my point about language and projection. You hear me say things I would not ever say, knowing myself as I do. I am saying that rationality, senses, memory, etc. functions are only aspects of something larger - a context or source. And that these functions can only know of what is in their own sphere. Just the way that eyes don't hear and fish probably wouldn't know about land and sky. Would you consider the possibiity that there are ways of knowing realities that are yet unexplored by you? How frightning is facing Not Knowing? Have you ever tried it? I also wonder about your frequent attacks against people who think differently than you and therefore come to different conclusions. What do you get out of this way of relating? Well? Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:18:11 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: p.s. Message: Jim If you asked someone if he believed in God and he said 'yes' would you shoot him or just shoot him down? (Assuming you've heard about the massacre.) Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:31:21 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: p.s. Message: If you asked someone if he believed in God and he said 'yes' would you shoot him or just shoot him down? (Assuming you've heard about the massacre.) Is this a real question? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:39:01 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: p.s. Message: My hidden message: Same direction, different intensities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:58:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: New-age word games Message: I'm wondering how you came to exalt the intellect over the many other aspects of the human construct. Reading in neuropscience and agreeing with its conclusions about the nature of consciousness are two different things. I have a practical mind and I put considerable study into learning how the mind works and what can be done to effect change for people who want it. I'm not sure what the 'human construct' is but it sure does sound purty. But you never answered my question, asked several times: how much study, where,when and how, have you done in neuroscience? Obviously enough to feel comfortable disagreeing with the neuroscienists. So tell me about that. What findings have you studied which you reject. Specifics please. You talk about your 'study'. What study? I wonder how you concluded that I reject rationality. It sort of proves my point about language and projection. You hear me say things I would not ever say, knowing myself as I do. I am saying that rationality, senses, memory, etc. functions are only aspects of something larger - a context or source. And that these functions can only know of what is in their own sphere. Just the way that eyes don't hear and fish probably wouldn't know about land and sky. Sorry if I misinterpreted 'letting go of the processes of thinking.' Care to explain it further? See, here, Xan, is your problem. Even IF you're right and I initially missed your point (which I doubt), this process here is an incredible faculty we have for rectifying those misunderstandings. So let's play. Go ahead, tell me what you really meant by that phrase. In particular, help me understand how that's not a rejection of rationality. Eyes don't hear but minds to communicate. Keep going. Would you consider the possibiity that there are ways of knowing realities that are yet unexplored by you? How could I not? Of course, the answer's 'yes'. So? How frightning is facing Not Knowing? Have you ever tried it? This question's too vague. I can't answer it. I also wonder about your frequent attacks against people who think differently than you and therefore come to different conclusions. What do you get out of this way of relating? A cheap thrill. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:05:04 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: word games Message: When you get out of your car and go into your house are you rejecting the car? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:26:11 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: new age evasion Message: Okay, You ask the questions. Is that how it works? I think I've got it now. Alright, you want an answer to this question? Sure, Xan, anything you say. I do not reject my car when I get out of it. Now, just try to make the analogy. Go ahead, I dare you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:23:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Xan Subject: Not knowing Message: How frightning is facing Not Knowing? Have you ever tried it? Sorry, Xan, but you don't come across as 'not knowing'. You say that everything is a part of consciousness. I agree in that without consciousness, nothing can be known. But on what grounds do you KNOW that consciousness is the ultimate source? How do you know that when we die our consciosness doesn't also? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 19:57:01 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I double dare you Message: Jerry I know what consciousness is by letting myself be aware of silence. This my point again, for Jerry and Jim: Intellect is a useful faculty for doing lots of stuff as humans in this world. What the intellect can know is limited but it would be impossible to find its limitations except by going into conscious spaces that are not known to intellect. But don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:29:12 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: simplistic Message: Xan, Why do you think consciousness and intelligence are separable at any level? Again, I'm waiting to hear about your studies in neuroscience. Well? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:39:26 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: simple Message: Because I discovered it. dis covered. I looked under the cover of intellect and sure enough there it wasn't, but consciousness was. Neuroscience: Lost your bait. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:15:18 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: Can I get my money back? Message: Because I discovered it. dis covered. I looked under the cover of intellect and sure enough there it wasn't, but consciousness was. If there was no science, if we were all impressionable kids again, if we were all ignorant, inexperienced and unread, we might be impressed by this typical new age device, the false etimology. But we're not and I'd just like you to know that in some circles this kind of 'wisdom' is only entertaining as unintentional humour. Around here for instance. Too bad this is the best you can do to answer the question. No wonder words fail you so often. You don't use them properly. Neuroscience: Lost your bait. I have no idea what this means. Do you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:35:41 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I get my money back? Message: It's a good thing we weren't roommates. We would have killed each other. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:57:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: For the record Message: I just want to confirm that you never answered any of my questions. You came here with your one question, got a lot of sincere replies, all of which you merely used as a springboard from which to launch your wooly new age sermon. When push came to shove, though, you were no more interested in real communication than any other new-ager I've ever met who expresses himself as do you. God, I wish I'd learned to cut through this mindfuck crap when I was younger! There was a time when I would have doffed my hat to you, Xan. I'd have figured you really knew something. Oh well. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:56:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Xan Subject: What kind of dare is that? Message: I know what consciousness is by letting myself be aware of silence. Ah, but what about that little ringing in your ears that's always there (you know, the one that M said was 'divine' music)? So, it's not completely silent, is it? But this is just a diversion for my amusement. How can letting yourself be aware of silence (which is so easy to do, I don't know why you're daring me to) prove that consciousness was before birth and will survive death? It doesn't as far as I can tell. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:52:40 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Xan Subject: Orgasm science Message: Er...could I be in that research study? JUST KIDDING Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:37:41 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Xan, this is about the longest post I've ever done. I hope you get to see it before it disappears into the archives. It's a lot of work for nothing if you don't. We know what an orgasm is, but even for myself there are differences in my experience of it one time to the next, and I would not want to assume I knew your experience which is personal and immediate to you, even if I thought I knew the meaning of your words. Okay, all experience is subjective but since we're all built pretty much the same, isn't it a safe assumption that our experiences of pain and pleasure are probably the same as well? I have studied neuroscience some as well as neurolinguistics. The latter particularly describes the unique effect language has on each individual. Language is learned and associated with individual experiences which may or may not actually be as common as we assume. Each of us has a unique history which is the context for all our perceptions and interpretations. Two people witnessing the same event would most likely Not have the same interpretation of it, and may not even give the same 'factual' description. I don't think we're as unique as you're suggesting. I think human experience is pretty much the same across the board. Misunderstanding is rampant among humans. Sometimes I'm amazed that we manage to connect through language at all and happy for those rare moments when we do. Unfortunately, language is our main method of communication. I think it's wisest if we make an effort in perfecting our use of it. If consciousness was dependent on the senses we would not experience it at times when the senses are not active, i.e. dreamless sleep, near-death experiences, deep meditation. I'm not so sure that dreamless sleep IS a state of consciousness. NDEs are still unexplainable and meditation is really just deep relaxation, isn't it? Besides, the theory of consciousness I was talking about had to do with what we're aware of through our senses. My mistake for not making that clear. Moreover, I suggest that the body (brain & senses) is not the source of consciousness, being a birth-death phenomenon, but that the body exists within and as an effect of consciousness, which the senses, intellect and other faculties express. The fact that the body is a 'birth-death phenomenon' does not eliminate it as being the source of consciousness. Consciousness may very well come to its end when the body does. Since you know that consciousness is aware of itself it must also be aware of its source. Wouldn't it make sense then to follow consciousness itself back to its own source rather than attempting to discover source by looking at effects through the use of those effects? Just because consciousness is aware of itself does not mean that it HAS to be aware of it's source. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't. There wouldn't be so many unanswered questions about it if it was. I know that some brain scientists are saying those non-sensory experiences are the effect of electro-chemistry. I have often observed scientists to determine the boundaries of a system and then define anything that occurs outside those boundaries in the terms they have accepted within in. It's a lot like religion in that way. I'm not against science by any means. I am for questioning assumptions. It's only reasonable. Yeah, it does seem that some scientists try to make the facts fit their hypothesis, but that's not true science, just bad. Religion, on the other hand, doesn't require facts at all, just faith. I have learned that consciousness itself is silent so when I let silence increase in my mind... well, find out for yourself. I'm not sure if silence of mind (our thought processes) is the key. Can we really silence the mind or is it just that our focus is elsewhere, away from the mind's noise, say, when you hear a beautiful song for the first time, or you're away on vacation appreciating sites you've never seen before, or if you're deep in meditation if that's what you dig? Also, don't you get profound enjoyment from having a clear thought, from coming to an understanding of something that was previously puzzling to you? I do. I think this blaming a noisy mind for duress has something lacking to it. I'm not satsfied with it as an explanation. Seeing from the side of pure consciousness, unity is its nature. Seeing from the side of the human mind, diversity and separation are natural. Unity reaches out, you might say, to that which believes itself to be apart from it. That's compassion. To me, compassion is feeling pity for those in pain and wanting to help them in some way. Don't twitch, but your description of compassion is, brace yourself, new age. The ones I've seen who are conscious and not compassionate have some need for individual power - a belief in their unique separateness and therefore not fully conscious of the original state of unity. I don't want to make you twitch again so I won't say it outright. This is n-- a-- thinking that doesn't really clarify a whole lot for me. But if it makes sense to you, I guess it makes sense to somebody. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 21:31:42 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: What do you want? Message: Jerry I've stopped twitching at the N...A... word. It's a benefit of this dialogue that I get to drop extraneous stuff and get more simple in expression. As in, more simple less room for misunderstanding. When I worked with people exploring their subconscious minds for personal change, I was often amazed at the uniqueness of each, given we do seem to be in a similarity of human experience. A method that worked with one person or even with one part of a person's mind would not work for another seemingly similar. I learned that to be effective in changing mind patterns and thereby life patterns I had to use the words of the other person and not my own. I learned to make no assumptions but to always ask the mind for its unique memories and interpretations. I've always been more attracted to ideas I can use than to theory. I've found that bringing my awareness into the silence that is between and around my thoughts is a practical activity. It leads me into an exploration of consciousness I could never have imagined. Is it possible that the reason questions about consciousness are so much more numerous than answers is because so few people have been willing to stay with the silence and find out where it comes from? Those moments of beauty and clarity are glimpses, but by accepting that they are spontaneous and infrequent only, we may be ignoring the signs - Dig Here! Or Spend More Time here. For me, I determined I would do whatever it took to be able to spend more time here. No, meditation is not just relaxation. That's just the beginning. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 22:37:01 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Xan Subject: What do you want? Message: Hi Xan, How much asparagus do you eat in one year? Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:01:43 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Yes, Mary, THAT's the question Message: How much asparagus do you eat in one year? Mary, You're absolutely brilliant. This indeed is the question that Xan must face if he's ever going to change his own subconscious patterns of blockage and release. You have the gift, girl. You should be a healer. Have you ever considered studying neuroscience and neurolinguistics? I hear they're accepting people for the fall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 00:15:19 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, Mary, THAT's the question Message: Gee Jim, Neuroscience and neurolinguistics, it almost overwhelms my synapses. I could meander over to the National Brain Institute at the University of Florida with a ream of Xan's posts. Actually, I really do have some 'friends' who teach and do research there. Hmmmmmm. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 23:43:58 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Mary M Subject: do you want asparagus? Message: Some. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:32:47 (EDT)
From: What Email: None To: Xan Subject: do I want? Message: I would like to wake up some morning without that awful sinking feeling that I wish I were dead. Yeah, maybe it was better when I was delusional, thinking I had a purpose because I was a devotee of the LOTU. But it's hard to go back there once you realize you've been duped. And I've been duped numerous times by numerous frauds. So maybe I'm just unwilling to let anyone in anymore. Killing Time Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:01:40 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: What Subject: do I want? Message: what I know that feeling well. For me only this daily adventure of Self discovery satisfies. In the past it was only the moments of love/caring. Now my moments of love are not for or from anyone in particular. Love just Is. No kidding. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:10:59 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: What Subject: To What Message: What, You will wake up again in the morning without 'that awful sinking feeling ... wishing you were dead'. I can testify to that. I'm very concerned about you at this very moment. My e-mail is included at the top of this message. Katie's is katie@ex-premie.org Please e-mail directly if you'd like to go off Forum. Who are you? Do you need a phone call from one of us? If you're in a city where one of us lives I am certain we can get someone over if you'd like. Please reply as soon as you can. Not all people are duplicitous in life. Love, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 04:00:38 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: What Subject: TO WHAT......... Message: I've had enough violence for a lifetime, even violence against myself makes me feel ill. People are burying their children here in Denver over the next few days, 14 teenagers and their teacher, they had so much to live for, can you remember when you were a teenager, your whole life in front of you and your only purpose was to have fun? I understand what you're saying, what's the use in going on, especially in the world we live in today. I woke up this morning very depressed and have been in deep depression all day. It's now 2:00 A.M. and things are'nt much better. But I will go on, I'll go on because there're people out there that might need me, people I have yet to meet. I'm in my 50's those kids at Columbine High School died in their teens; I have already, even in my depression, been given more than they were given. For all that I've been given I have to be here to give back. What's my purpose? My purpose is to serve, not some guru or master, but humanity, and wait on the will of heaven, or the universe, or life, or whatever it is you call that which put you here. There are people in Kosovo dying, there are people all over the world dying, most not by choice. Life has been cheapened by others, but your life is not cheap, it's not something to just throw away. Inspite of all the pain, inspite of all the sorrow, inspite of all the broken dreams and promises choose life. As a song goes: Life goes on even after the thrill of living is gone. You've got to shake your fist at lightening, you've got to roar light a forest fire. Don't reject yourself, as the saying goes 'that which does not kill you will make you strong.' God knows I've felt suicidal many times, but I realize death is permanent, human life is temporary, don't rush things. Victor Frankl, one of the founders of Existential therapy and author of 'Mans Search For Meaning' says purpose and meaning are important in peoples lives but we have to find our own meaning to life. Think about your family, friends and all the wonderful people you have yet to meet, people to whom you will make a difference in ways you have yet to imagine. It's never killing time, it's always living time. Hang-in there and don't put your purpose out of reach, you don't need a big purpose. Live because you have life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 05:45:22 (EDT)
From: L Email: None To: What Subject: correction Message: It should be like a forest fire, not light a forest fire. A Joni Mitchell song. There's alot of people depressed out there these days, and killing yourself is not going to change that, in fact it's just going to make alot more people depressed. Hang-in there, for even this too will pass....... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 12:50:01 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: What Subject: do I want? Message: Hi What, L's messages to you below have woke me up to your message here. I could write a lot here about my own bouts with that level of depression, pain, but maybe you can chew on some of these thoughts. I have no idea what your depression is really about. In a medium like this, that's always a given. There's a lot of guessing that's required sometimes. Maybe you can elaborate a bit. Yeah, maybe it was better when I was delusional, thinking I had a purpose because I was a devotee of the LOTU. OK. Is it possible that even the most logical outlooks on life are, in fact, a different set of 'delusion.' I mean, who's to say what is real and what isn't? (Well, Jim maybe - grin) Even if you say something is real and the whole world agrees with you, if I don't want to believe it -- then my rebellious belief is my present reality -- fact or delusion. I'm digressing. What I'm more trying to say is this. What 'bugs' you the most? What really depresses you the most about our world? I'm guessing that right now, this is not a difficult question for you. OK. Now... What can you do to contribute to it's solution. And... Is being a contributing part of this solution at the heart of why you are alive? Do you have a personal life mission (unique to you), and have you had one, all this time? Freeing yourself from dependence on a guru does not mean throwing out what you personally believe in -- although it can take some work and time to sort out what's yours and what was designed to keep you dependent on the guru. Is it time to cut your own deal? It's your 'right.' Don't let anyone, especially that guru guy rob you of your purpose. Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 11:30:31 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Xan Subject: Hey, Xan. What if there ain't Message: no nuthin'? Why waste your time looking for something that may or may not exist? If that GRACE, that LOVE, that JOY, that...that...that indescribable ????? wants you it will find you--rest assured (it doesn't want me). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:10:51 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Gail Subject: Hey, Xan. What if there ain't Message: Gail Well, this why I'm talking about it. I'm telling you it does exist. This I know. But my experience does you no good unless it helps you allow for the possibiity. I also know this: It does want you. We're just waiting for the right time to come around. My wish for you, dear: Stop right now in this moment and feel your own presence. It's silent. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 13:03:37 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Xan Subject: Discover AND use Message: It is possible to be in a state of discovery of your own essential power and love. Discovering is fine, IMO, if you've not been aware you had love & other human valuable to feel and to share. The problem with the gooroo is that you go into some sort of spiritual onanism practice, as somebody said: this is also fine. But the best use you can do with your love and power, is USE THEM in your human life. Feeding your gooroo and spending your time watching absurd videos doesn't take anybody anywhere, except for 'that experience'. I've discovered that sharing love and whatever with other human beings (against m's advice of course) is much more rewarding than spending your time looking at the so-called 'source inside'. Premies will say (and I would have said a few years ago) that feeling 'that love' is also sharing it, that people around you 'can feel it', the whole theory. This is hallucinating love and relationships. 'That experience' is merely taking you in an hallicunatory stage where your 'reality' is not shared with anybody else. You become schizophrenic. You're making the most absurd things thinking it's the wisest things you can do! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 15:26:02 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Discover AND use Message: Jean-Michel I agree. I see people in religions and cults loving Da Lord while judging the people. I also see people loving the people and judging people who love Da Lord. In my experience love and judgement are opposites. I also am coming to know more the nature of love itself by diving into the source and as I do that I am becoming less judging and more present and responsive. No hype. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 13:46:50 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Xan Subject: Discover AND use Message: I agree. I see people in religions and cults loving Da Lord while judging the people. I also see people loving the people and judging people who love Da Lord. Well, that's a 'judgement.' I dunno Xan, there are so many pitfalls in trying to conceptualize something you seem to keep saying can't be conceptualized (you know, a cult gets born practically everyday)-- or at least someone's personal, spiritual merry-go-round. Drawing a conclusion, making a judgement, where does it begin and end? IMO, we make judgements, no matter how hard we try to be non-judgemental. See, there's a global judgment from me. Is JM pointing out that actions define what you are experiencing? OK, your posting on this subject is an action. Alright. In my experience love and judgement are opposites. Xan, are you trying to say something to others in this thread? Are you wanting others to experience something -- thus, behave in a certain way? I ask, because you keep breaking out of your own personal adventure into what you think others should be focusing on? To me, this can become part of the spiritual 'experience.' Getting a high from feeling one is helping others is great until it becomes so subjective that it is blind to what others are experiencing. Integrating a so-called 'spiritual' sense of one's Self with a brain that is still sharp and alert can be a terrific goal and can also be an amazing waste of one's life. It's alluring enough to waste other people's time, if they choose to explore it. I dunno -- 'don't have the answers. Again, JM is bringing up a terrific point, I think. Do your actions, more than writing a few words, make a bigger statement -- to yourself and the world? -- if that's a big part of what you're wanting to say here. Being a premie is a lot about talking. In the 'old days,' we at least were 'commanded' and 'encouraged' (I'm being facetious) to give service (albeit completely misdirected to waste it on one person - M). Coming out of the cult seems to require redefining what our personal 'service' is in our lives. What is Marianne, (who is right now not here posting, but working to save the life of a death row inmate), experiencing? I would guess that it's not blissful (for lack of a better word) and she doesn't have time to talk about it, explore it, feel it, share it, etc. or she would weakening her abilities to carry out her task. I have no idea what I'm blathering about. Maybe what I want to throw in here is that you seem to be presuming (making a judgement with not enough data) that posters here are not experiencing love, being 'centered,' different levels of brain waves, etc. Is it possible that some of the content written here could lead you to believe such? Perhaps erroneously? Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 15:10:25 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: Discover AND use Message: Milouchie Yep. It sure is a challenge to conceptualize and express what can't be conceptualized or expressed precisely. I seem to be compelled to try though. You are asking me what is my motive, and why express here? I've noticed in a number of posts here and in the Premies & Friends forum that, in the disappointment and disillusionment many people describe going through about Maharaji, the real possibilities for knowing one's own source/essence have been also abandoned. I have no way of knowing what any of you experience, I only know what you say here. Maybe you do have all the love/peace/freedom you want for now. If I've seemed to say I am right and you are wrong, that was not my intention. My motive is to express what I am discovering with the possibility that some people might be glad to hear it. Milloochie, not every observation is a judgement. I can notice that someone is bald or I can say it's wrong for him to be bald and he should wear a hat so it doesn't offend anyone. I am wasting time if I am doing what I don't really want to do. When I am doing something that feels like learning and helping, I like it, I do it. This is part of the post-cult freedom, isn't it? The rediscovery that you know for yourself how you want to live. Yet I hear some people in the forums suggesting that They know how someone else should be showing their love or expressing themselves. I return to my themes: Your life is just about you. What do you want? There's some great stuff to discover in The Unknown, in case you are interested. I appreciate the challenge. Xan Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 16:04:05 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Xan Subject: Discover AND use Message: I've noticed in a number of posts here and in the Premies & Friends forum that, in the disappointment and disillusionment many people describe going through about Maharaji, the real possibilities for knowing one's own source/essence have been also abandoned. I can't speak for the Premies and Friends forum, not that can I really speak for anyone here either. I do wonder if the real possibilities for knowing one's own source/essence have been also abandoned. is more that regular poster's here just don't want to start giving their own new type of satsang than there is any abscence. More of a celebrating each person's diversity of view, belief and experience. I think some readers just presume that every ex who posts about M as their past 'detour artist' is somehow living in a complete void. Not true at all. IMO, their lives seem fuller than ever before. Mine is. I feel I am experiencing more my self and 'spirituality' than ever before when I still allowed mental links to M. Milloochie, not every observation is a judgement. I can notice that someone is bald or I can say it's wrong for him to be bald and he should wear a hat so it doesn't offend anyone. Yes, I realize that, but was also trying to point out that you were making a judgement on both premies and exe's, not just an observation, by default -- through your own eye's. That's all. There's some great stuff to discover in The Unknown, in case you are interested. Ok, like I stated above, it seems you get a kick out of 'not knowing' which I can appreciate. Some others get a kick out of 'knowing,' especially while in this forum, which I'm sure you can appreciate also. I have gotta run now. Have a great day, Xan. Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 17:45:43 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: discover Message: May we all become free of judgement. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:09:36 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Xan Subject: excuse me Message: May we all become free of judgement. This is dumb, impossible, hypocritical and dumb. And impossible. AND hypocritical. It's dumb, dumb, dumb and also very hypocritical. PLUS impossible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 20:08:32 (EDT)
From: Xan Email: None To: Jim Subject: excuse me Message: It's not impossible. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:16:04 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: All Premies Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: This is a list of issues addressed to a premie on the forum that was accidentally deleted. The premie did not come up with a convincing answer to any of the issues. I am repeating it here so that it makes its way into the archives. To all premies reading this, please state your position on the following:- 1. There are a number of different gurus from the same tradition as Shri Hans, including 3 others from Shri Hans' Guru, and M's brother, teaching the same meditation techniques. Why is M special? The obvious answer is that he isn't. Do you have a more plausible answer? 2. M's well documented protection of Fakiranand and Jagdeo when they had committed serious crimes. The obvious explanation is that he has no morals, and wanted to protect his image. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 3. Why did M tell ashram premies they should stay in the ashrams all their lives, with dire threats if they didn't, and then close the ashrams down? The obvious explanation is that they were becoming a burden, and were no longer lucrative. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 4. Why did M change the meditation techniques, if he was so perfect in the first place? The obvious answer is that the old 24 hour techniques would be unacceptable to the next target group, and so they had to be made less demanding. Do you have a more plausible answer? 5. Why did M change the commandments? The obvious answer is as issue 4 above. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 6. Why does M need a multi-million dollar house, and all the other trappings of wealth? The obvious answer is that he likes luxury and is in it for the money. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 7. As I have experienced, and many others on this forum have stated, the meditation techniques work even after M has been rejected. Why does M insist on the Master/Student relationship? The obvious explanation is that removing that relationship would lose M his source of income. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 8. The adoration and love premies feel for M is indistinguishable from that of other students for their masters, or for pop fans for their pop music idols, etc. Why do premies hold this up as something holy? The obvious answer is that premies are locked in a cult. Do you have a more plausible explanation? 9. Why does M never teach anything more than the basic introductory stuff? The obvious answer is that he is not very interested in his followers reaching further understanding, just to keep them following. Do you have a more plausible answer? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:39:10 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: JHB Subject: Thanks, JHB (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 20:46:28 (EDT)
From: QP_SUPPORTER Email: jfk@hotmail.com To: JHB Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: 1. There are a number of different gurus from the same tradition as Shri Hans, including 3 others from Shri Hans' Guru, and M's brother, teaching the same meditation techniques. Why is M special? A: M is special to those who he is special. He is NOT special to millions of people. He IS special to some people that find him special. Is he special to me? Well.. that is not of anybody's business but my own... 2. M's well documented protection of Fakiranand and Jagdeo when they had committed serious crimes. The obvious explanation is that he has no morals, and wanted to protect his image. A: You are making assumptions on Fakiranand and Jagdeo's behaviour; you have no proof, just anecdotal info. In any case, people are people. People are not perfect. People make mistakes. People make ammends. Are you people or are you infallible? 3. Why did M tell ashram premies they should stay in the ashrams all their lives, with dire threats if they didn't, and then close the ashrams down? A: I never heard M to tell premies to stay all their lives in an Ashram (quite ludicrous, really). I never heard M threat anybody. And I have been listening carefully.... Have you? What was the last time you heard him? 1970? M is evolving. You don't seem to. Like any old revisionist you live in the past, not in the present. Boring... 4. Why did M change the meditation techniques, if he was so perfect in the first place? A: He never did change the techniques. You are wrong on this, so wrong... 5. Why did M change the commandments? A: He never changed the commandments. - Give Knowledge a fair chance (Meditate) - Keep in touch (Listen) - Participate (Service) 6. Why does M need a multi-million dollar house, and all the other trappings of wealth? A: Why does it bothers you so much that he is wealthly? Is wealth something wrong? Are you poor? You are making too many assumptions on his sources of income. He does not get a penny from any organization, selling of videos or anything else that you allege in this forum. You are incorrect on this, living on your own little world of assumptions and 2nd hand information. Strange... In the U S of A, it seems that there is this hate/love relationship with money. If you have much of it, you are OK. If you don't then you hate (envy?) these who have it, and then at the same time you buy Lotto to see if you can make it there ( or buy/sell stocks, day trade or gamble in Vegas, same thing). 7. As I have experienced, and many others on this forum have stated, the meditation techniques work even after M has been rejected. Why does M insist on the Master/Student relationship? A: Knowledge is Knowledge. The master/student relationship is for these that want it. These who want it get to enjoy it. Those who don't, don't. 8. The adoration and love premies feel for M is indistinguishable from that of other students for their masters, or for pop fans for their pop music idols, etc. A: The master is a tool for me to get closer to an experience that exists within. Without the master it becomes a dry experience, without growth, interest and love. The relationship with the master is a very specific and peculiar relatiosnhip. The master is my master when he is. 9. Why does M never teach anything more than the basic introductory stuff? A: Because that is all you need to learn. The basics. Please do not give me the BS about this. I am a well learned person, have a great familoy and enjoy lerning about many, many subjects. I am talking about that there are some basic things that do not change and that I need to re-learn again and again. Like drinking water. I drink water everyday to quench my thirst. - jfk Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:05:15 (EDT)
From: ap Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: think I am going to be sick(nt Message: uuuuppppp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:07:09 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: CUE PEE SUPPORTER, 2. M's well documented protection of Fakiranand and Jagdeo when they had committed serious crimes. The obvious explanation is that he has no morals, and wanted to protect his image. A: You are making assumptions on Fakiranand and Jagdeo's behaviour; you have no proof, just anecdotal info. In any case, people are people. People are not perfect. People make mistakes. People make ammends. Are you people or are you infallible? It is not anecdotal info on Hammer Head Fakiranand and Mahatma Jagdeo. We are willing to concede that these individuals should make amends. In America we have a court of law that will help them 'make amends'. Now how would you feel if Hammer Head Fakiranand decided that Guru Maharaji needed his head bashed with a hammer? How would you feel if Premlata and Daya were sexually molested by Jagdeo? Do you need explicit details of what Premlata and Daya would have been subjected to? They can be provided. Do you be truly believe that Maharaji and his wife, Marolyn would have allowed this to happen to themselves or their own? I for one am getting tired of Maharaji's wimped out guys/gals defending Hammer Head and Mr 'Let me molest you, little girl, in the name of Satguru Maharaji' Jagdeo. Yes, we all do make mistakes. Certain mistakes have greater consequences than others. These are sometimes 'illegal' mistakes as in the case of Hammer Head and Pud-Whacker Jagdeo. Now why don't you go chase a rainbow? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:41:40 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Mary M Subject: the bigger issue Message: QP Supporter, It is only a matter of time before people from this Forum will take apart your rebuttal item by item. I might concede that you have a few responses that almost appear to have what a reasonable person might respond with. However, some of your responses show an extreme lack of reasonable and rational thinking that this becomes the real issue and this is one of the major concerns that most of us have with premies and, thus, Maharaji. If the type of thinking that you exemplify is an example of the time you have spent with Maharaji then most reasonable persons can see that there is an extreme danger in the practice of Maharaji's full-blown Knowledge. Granted your responses might not represent the majority of the followers of Maharaji, but it is very conceivable that other followers might agree with many of your statements. And, I'm saying from my own personal experience because I was a follower of Maharaji for about 25 years and I really understand where you're coming from. It's amazing to consider the amount of change in my own thinking process in only about one year away from the teachings of the Master through his videos and his events by listening to what others here have to say and reading other general information about cults. The likely reality is that when you are that deep into a cult that uses well known brainwashing techniques you will not even know how awry your thinking and rationalization has gone. Finally, I could suggest that you keep reading the Forum and other information here and elsewhere to try to understand what we are saying. You might find after awhile that it is not as extreme as when you first started reading. That's what happened to me. Sure, you could call it another brainwash job because it affects thinking. However, please understand that rational and reasonable thinking feels better than the thinking that you need to do when you must swallow and digest so much bizarre fanciful thinking that comes with Maharaji. God, I remember my first days of 24x7 involvement in 1973 and how much I absorbed and how much resistance I initially had. And, it might feel the same when you're coming out at the other end. Yet, there is a sense of freedom that you have been denied for however long you were involved. And that is the experience that you can also be grateful for. Life does not end when you leave Maharaji's Knowledge. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:52:48 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: delusional QP Message: I'm sure that many of us are still shell shocked from the postings of QP. However, what a great example of Maharaji's Knowledge he was. Oh, yeah, maybe he was a total bullshitter. Nevertheless, there was a message in the medium. It has occurred to me that QP almost started off having a reasonable discussion on the Forum and by the end he was very close to sounding as though he was certifiable insane. Could his bizarre behavior have been an the result of the looking at his own beliefs that were being challenged by some reasonable and rational thinking from the Forum? In his bravado he tried to protect himself with his tough guy mystery game. Could he be the extreme example of the dysfunctionality that comes with cult involvement? Sure, it might have been a big act. Then again, maybe not. I'm sure all of us know some whacko premie or two that might have been unstable before they got Knowledge and become more so afterwards. The answer to problems is most likely not in Maharaji's Knowledge. In fact, Knowledge could be quite dangerous and I'll say that from my own experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:24:06 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: A: M is special to those who he is special. He is NOT special to millions of people Cheating again? Amongst those who are somehow familiar to him and his meesage, m is held in contempt by many more people than those he is 'special' to. To know him is NOT to love him...its to be revolted by him. and if you do love him...you're part of an extreme minority A: I never heard M to tell premies to stay all their lives in an Ashram (quite ludicrous, really). I never heard M threat anybody. And I have been listening carefully.... Have you? What was the last time you heard him? 1970? M is evolving. You don't seem to. Like any old revisionist you live in the past, not in the present. Boring... I suggest you read the section on the ashrams that exists on this site, as well the truth about Maharaji site. You're speaking a bold faced lie in that regard. I attended my last event with m in May 98 when m spoke the following words IMHHO, in a very threatening manner. Approx 1100 other people heard him speak what by now has become known as 'the principles quote.' 'Do you want to hold onto your principles? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship is going to sink! You want to hold onto your principles. I'll tell tou whats going to happen. You're going to die!! Yes my friend, m IS evolving. His slime is being refined...turning all those pwks who decide to stay with him into instant liars. We know who the bullshit revisionists are. Its not exes who feel the need to change their tune these days. Its premies who have to rationalize. minimalize, deny...Fakiranand, Jagdeo, Chuck Nathan and Amtext. A: He never did change the techniques. You are wrong on this, so wrong... A: He never changed the commandments. - Give Knowledge a fair chance (Meditate) - Keep in touch (Listen) - Participate (Service) You're an outright liar. He changed both, and by virtue of eliminating one of the original 'five commandments' constantly meditate and remember the holy name, he fundamentally changed the very nature of the practice of meditation as taught by the very first mahatma/ instructors. The lurkers know you're just jerking off on this one. : Why does it bothers you so much that he is wealthly? Is wealth something wrong? Are you poor? You are making too many assumptions on his sources of income. He does not get a penny from any organization, selling of videos or anything else that you allege in this forum. You are incorrect on this, living on your own little world of assumptions and 2nd hand information. Strange... In the U S of A, it seems that there is this hate/love relationship with money. If you have much of it, you are OK. If you don't then you hate (envy?) these who have it, and then at the same time you buy Lotto to see if you can make it there ( or buy/sell stocks, day trade or gamble in Vegas, same thing) m's outrageous wealth conned out of people who wanted to contribute to the 'spreading of knowledge' but have now found themselves as contributors to nothing more than the personal fortune of the RAWAT REICH, is what this filthy little cult is all about. That and m's control over those who see him as the elixir, when in fact he's very much the poison. Our information in terms of the information download thats been done by Mary M on the EV related and other businesses tied into m has been instrumental in painting a rather detailed picture of the REICH. TRUST ME SWEETHEART< WE ALREADY KNOW MORE THAN CHUCK NATHAN WANTS US TO KNOW...MORE THAN M TOO. A: Knowledge is Knowledge. The master/student relationship is for these that want it. These who want it get to enjoy it. Those who don't, don't k is alot of rhadasoami sizzle pakaged m style for westerners...nothing more than a bullshit and dehumanizing belief system that binds one to the guru/master. And of those who have experienced the 'master/student' relationship MANY are here to tell you that they DID NOT enjoy it...that in fact the closer they got to m... the more they could sense the rot in him and his bullshit little cult. A: The master is a tool for me to get closer to an experience that exists within. Without the master it becomes a dry experience, without growth, interest and love. The relationship with the master is a very specific and peculiar relatiosnhip. The master is my master when he is. Yup, the master seems to be your mater when he is, but YOU seem to be a CONSTANT PUTZ. If m can take his breaks from being a master and go on vacation once in a while, why can't you? A: Because that is all you need to learn. The basics. Please do not give me the BS about this. I am a well learned person, have a great familoy and enjoy lerning about many, many subjects. I am talking about that there are some basic things that do not change and that I need to re-learn again and again. Like drinking water. I drink water everyday to quench my thirst And there are some things YOU need to UNLEARN. Like depending on a fuckbrain little guru and his cult for your sense of well being. You may want to start there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:11:12 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Nim Subject: Nim..Can you expand on above Message: What do we actually know about Ms fortunes and Amtext...very little....can you please expand...Is M a shareholder in AMtext? cant the premies in Amtext see the trap?....go on tell me Nim what you know...All ears Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 18:24:54 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Stevei Subject: Stevei, your a great guy but.. Message: YOU'VE GOT TO COME TO CLASS!!:):)just joking Stevei:):) Stevei, your repeated questions of interest regarding Amtext and those of others who have expressed a similar desire to know more about this company and its role in m's Rawat Reich, underscores the need for a permanent page on this site dealing with the entire Amtext issue. It involves alot of explaining of the industry Amtext is involved in, its various business relationships and disguises, the role of premies in the company and a reasonable estimate at least of the financial benefit to m, along with a discussion of his role in the company I can't even attempt to do this in one post to you, and so far the information has come out over the course of many posts in several threads. Brian has asked me to write up a draft and submit to him and I hope to be able to do it...when my time becomes a little freer in about six weeks. At least then I'll be able to start it. In the meantime, I'm sorry you missed our previous discussions on the subject. but 'he who snoozes loses' In the meantime Stevei... all is not lost. I will tell you this. On may 11 96 at m's malibu residence, Mr.Charles R Nathan,president of Amtext (aka Chuckie Cheese) declared before a group of 150 amtext involved premies, as follows: 'Some of you have been asking about the relationship between Maharaji and Amtext. I am telling you, so there will be no doubt... that Maharaji is the SOLE BENEFICIAL OWNER of Amtext.' A consevative estimate would be that Amtext has provided m with an average of $1,000,000 per year over the last 20 years. We'll get into details later Stevei. In the meantime, enjoy yourself! its great to be alive!! Nim:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 19:00:48 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Nim Subject: Chuckie Cheese Message: Hi Nim, Going through some of my files I noticed that Chuck Nathan is listed as a DVP - Divisional Vice President for AmText. I don't have on-line access to California Public Records, all I could get was Text Mart's address. Wonder if Mr. Rawat is DP - Divine President of this business? Luv Ya, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:18:46 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Chuckie Cheese Message: Going through some of my files I noticed that Chuck Nathan is listed as a DVP - Divisional Vice President for AmText. Nope, on both Amtext docs. I have Charles B Nathan is listed as 'PD' on the very top of the 'Officers- directors' screen. Its only in the Commex doc. that you notice Chuckie Cheese listed as 'DVP', but even then he's on top of the screen. I don't have on-line access to California Public Records, all I could get was Text Mart's address. Text Mart may only be a matter of Amtext changing its name to conform to California law...then again it may be something else. I've got Nim's elves working on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:36:03 (EDT)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: I'm with you ALL the way! Message: That's it my boy, you tell 'em! Maharaji does NOT get a penny from any of these rather shady organisations like Amtext or Elan Vital. Good Lord no. He has nothing at all to do with them and it's plain as plain can be that Maharaji gets his income from his watch patent which he so modestly mentions on his exciting web site. Try telling THAT to these losers on this page and they'll tell you you're barking mad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 00:19:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: Idiot Answers Message: You are either really stupid, or really misinformed. M is special to those who he is special. He is NOT special to millions of people. He IS special to some people that find him special. Brilliant. This is like saying I am into being a premie bacause I'm into being a premie. Besides being stupid, this doesn't answer the question. You are making assumptions on Fakiranand and Jagdeo's behaviour; you have no proof, just anecdotal info. There is plenty of proof about this, as well as M's complicity therein. People do make mistakes, but most mature adults will admit they made mistakes. To my knowledge, M has never once, in his entire life, done that. I never heard M to tell premies to stay all their lives in an Ashram (quite ludicrous, really) Yes, it is ludicrous, but if you never heard it, then you never attended one of the ashram meetings Maharaji held in the 70s and 80s. On one occasion he said one could never move out of the ashram, at another that moving out was akin to moving next to a cesspool. And there were many other statements to that same effect. Then he just dumped the ashram premies without explanation, taking no responsibility for his crucial role in many of them being there, and, of course, admitting no mistake whatsoever. He never did change the techniques. You are wrong on this, so wrong.. No, you are wrong. They have been changed at least 4 times, the latest being that one should imagine something revolting like watching fat boy in a swing, or something like that. He never changed the commandments. - Give Knowledge a fair chance (Meditate) - Keep in touch (Listen) - Participate (Service) Where the hell have you been? There used to be FIVE commandments, at least until I left in 1983: -Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today -Never leave room for doubt in your mind -Constantly meditate and remember holy name -Never delay in attending satsang -Always have faith in god. So, they were RADICALLY changed and, in fact, it points out one of the changes in the techniques, to wit: you are not supposed to try to meditate 24 hours a day, which used to be one of his COMMANDMENTS. I'll stop there and let others respond further. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:23:46 (EDT)
From: Curious Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: to QT_SUPPORTER Message: If you found out that m has actually been protecting paedohiles/molesters would that change your relationship with him? Just curious Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:54:44 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Premies Subject: He DID Change the Techniques!! Message: and the way meditation was to be practised. I received K in 1973. I then, as was the fashion, attended several knowledge reviews from both Indian and western mahatmas/initiators and there was a consistency to the techniques. Practise consisted of remembering holy name (3rd technique) all the time (even in sleep), and practising the nectar (4th) technique at all times when not eating or speaking. Sitting down meditation only involved the first three techniques as nectar was just something that took place in the background all the time. Now the point about this, is that these mahatmas worked for M, and in particular, the western mahatmas were recruited by M. Now if M did not directly teach them how to give knowledge, then who was the teacher? So, it is not plausible that knowledge as taught by the mahatmas was not as taught by M, particularly because one of M's commandments was to constantly meditate and remember holy name. Then M gave these knowledge reviews. I attended one in Birmingham, UK. Suddenly gone was the requirement to practise the 3rd and 4th techniques all the time. Also, the fourth technique was no longer to be practised during other techniques, but was suddenly allowed equal time in sit down meditation. So, dear premies, how can you say there was no change? How can M claim this is the timeless knowledge passed down from Master to Master? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:49:54 (EDT)
From: Mahatmaji Email: None To: JHB Subject: You guys are confused! Message: Maharaji IS the Lord, and he may change anything he wishes. You have forgotten that we are the students, and He is the teacher. He can change the rules, this is His gift, this Knowledge is His, it's logic is not of this world, and the experience inside will never change, no matter what you think about it. You are confused because you don't practise anymore. Knowledge can't be understood with mind and logic. It's a pity you're wasting your precious life arguing issues that can't be discussed. Have faith, practise Knowledge, and everything will be clear again for you, by His Grace. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 13:05:36 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Mahatmaji Subject: You guys are confused! Message: Oh Mahatmaji! How blessed are the ways of the true Lord! Your wise and timely words, by His Grace, have touched the deepest part of my heart. My foolish mind still thinks all the same things, but now I submerge into the gentle up and down motion of my breath deep within, bathing in the holy light, and feel the intoxication of the divine orchestra within. My mind is a million miles away, and best of all, the divine nectar of six pints of Theakstons Old Peculiar removes all desire (except sex, which I can no longer do anyway due to brewers droop). John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 09:29:04 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co To: JHB Subject: Theakston's (ot) Message: Old Peculiar is one weird brew, that's for sure. Theakston's XB, on the other hand is the very ambrosia of heaven, and guaranteed not to incapacitate one's ability to raise to smile (in a manner of speaking...) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:59:15 (EDT)
From: Zombie Email: None To: Mahatmaji Subject: Yes, Master (nt) Message: nt Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 17:49:35 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Zombie Subject: HA HA (nt) Message: That was really funny Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:02:26 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: You're in your mind, John Message: John, It's pathetic the way you guys go on and on about something you obviously never understood to begin with. Maharaji has no more changed the techniques than has Raja Ji, yet you guys never complain about him, do you? Oh, I know. Raja Ji never claimed to be God, right? Well what if he did, asshole? You guys are just plain thick. I mean, AS IF Maharaji's going to change a timeless expereience of truth. He always said it was eternal and CHANGELESS, didn't he? Don't you remember anything? So how could he change things that can't be changed??? What did change, I know, were the names of the techniques but even you should be able to understand that one if you simply put your heart in gear a bit. Maharaji's giving Knowledge and Appreciation to more people than ever before. And now that he's inaugurated Phase II he's giving Knowledge to people in foreign lands. They don't speak English, dummy! So how are they going to understand words like 'nectar'? Besides, there was a lot of confusion back in the old days about the third technique; was it 'Holy Name'? Was it 'The Word'? Maharaji isn't stuck in the past. He saw this confusion and, in the loving way that only he can deal with something, he ingeniously, masterly, solved the whole problem. No more language difficulties, no more confusion. You're an idiot. Another thing -- you say that Maharaji used to ask you to do the 3rd technique, and even the 4th, all the time. But that's stupid, John. No one could do that, not even the Master himself. Are you calling Maharaji stupid or something? You guys are creeps. Get a life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:20:34 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're in your mind, John Message: I remember premies asking Mahatmas how they could practise Holy Name/Word for instance when swimming underwater. It was clear that there was no answer so Mahatmas usually said something like 'Don't focus on when you can't meditate, but on those times when you can meditate'. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 17:03:31 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Absent Premies Subject: He DID Change the Techniques!! Message: Looks like the premies have all gone away. Too frightened to face the truth about this issue, and the commandments issue below. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 05:01:32 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: He DID change the Commandments Message: QP_SUPPORTER, You say that M didn't change the commandments:- 'A: He never changed the commandments. - Give Knowledge a fair chance (Meditate) - Keep in touch (Listen) - Participate (Service)' First of all, these AREN'T EVEN THE CURRENT COMMANDMENTS!!!! The current commandments are:- Give Knowledge a fair chance Keep in touch NEVER REVEAL THE TECHNIQUES TO ANYONE ELSE So back to school for you. The old commandments were (I forget the order):- Constantly meditate and remember holy name Leave no room for doubt in your mind Never put off until tomorrow what can be done today Always have faith in God Never delay in attending satsang. How can you say they haven't changed???? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:05:16 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: Hi JHB, Your questions are serious ones and I'll give you serious answers from my point of view though several of your Qs require totally subjective answers that don't fall easily into yes and no bins. I also feel that some of these areas don't fall within the easy grid of logic, which in some people's view is the ultimate authority. I feel that logic and rationale are only part of the picture of intelligence (that's ok Jim, you can start puking.) You may not like the answers but they're mine. '1. There are a number of different gurus from the same tradition as Shri Hans, including 3 others from Shri Hans' Guru, and M's brother, teaching the same meditation techniques. Why is M special? The obvious answer is that he isn't. Do you have a more plausible answer?' Are you married or in love, JHB? Why did you fall in love with her/him instead of someone else? That's really the gist of it. As far as comparisons to other teachers who may teach similar techniques, for me, Maharaji is and always has been more radiant, wiser, funnier and speaks far more directly to me than anyone I've ever met or seen. His brother isn't and never was in the same ballpark as him in any of these areas. He's exactly like the jealous Duke or Prince in any legend or story. And if you know the history of this type of thing, spin-offs, splinter groups and wannabe Masters is par for the course. In my experience, Maharaji is an entirely genuine Master and has been so without ANY effort since the age of 8. '2. M's well documented protection of Fakiranand and Jagdeo when they had committed serious crimes. The obvious explanation is that he has no morals, and wanted to protect his image. Do you have a more plausible explanation?' Well documented...where, here? If I remember, Maharaji said right away, 'Don't hurt that guy. He doesn't know what he's doing.' If I remember, Bob Mishler hurried Fakirinand out of the country. I can't explain Fakirinand's behavior to you, I didn't know him. As to Jagdeo, of course it's horrible if he did what's been alleged. Do you know what happened, I don't. Last I heard, Jagdeo was in Fiji or somewhere washing boats. Maybe he was disciplined and defrocked, I have no idea. I do remember Maharaji immediately de-mahatmaing (word?) and sending away a few Indians who'd misbehaved with women in the early days putting the kibosh on your protect-the-image theory. If it did happen, my heart goes out to the woman (or women) in question. '3. Why did M tell ashram premies they should stay in the ashrams all their lives, with dire threats if they didn't, and then close the ashrams down? The obvious explanation is that they were becoming a burden,and were no longer lucrative. Do you have a more plausible explanation?' This one doesn't hold any water. Sorry. I was in the ashram and was never 'direly threatened' with anything. In fact, if your well-worn theory of this being all about money were true, he'd have done just the opposite as the ashrams were an obvious cash cow. The ashrams were closed because they had outlived their usefulness as a tool of growth. People were hiding out in them and using them as an excuse to not deal with various things. That combined with their obvious Hindu orientation and Maharaji said 'basta.' The various Indianisms, as fun as many of them were, had clearly become an impediment to people in the West having access to knowledge totally apart from culture and place. As a living teacher, I feel he's more than welcome and able to change or eliminate stuff he feels is unnecessary. Funny how some of you talk about Maharaji as if he were this unbending tyrant and then complain when he changes or streamlines something so it’ll work better or be less trippy. '4. Why did M change the meditation techniques, if he was so perfect in the first place? The obvious answer is that the old 24 hour techniques would be unacceptable to the next target group, and so they had to be made less demanding. Do you have a more plausible answer?' The techniques have been the same since 1972, with extremely minor clarifications. I had 1 knowledge review in 1973 where Maharaji had asked that the first technique (light) be done much more gently as various mahatmas were showing it in a more physical way. This was, I believe, to make it clear that it wasn't dependent on a physical sensation but much more subtle. Since then nothing has changed. If you get hung up on various descriptions, that's not because he hasn't tried repeatedly to make it easy. '5. Why did M change the commandments? The obvious answer is as issue 4 above. Do you have a more plausible explanation? Streamlining. Simplifying. Trusting his students a little bit, perhaps. '6. Why does M need a multi-million dollar house, and all the other trappings of wealth? The obvious answer is that he likes luxury and is in it for the money. Do you have a more plausible explanation? Yes, that's the obvious answer and the most superficial stream running through this whole page. I agree with the first and not with the second. I think he likes luxury very much, which is not all that unusual if you think about it for a minute and a half.. Do you enjoy luxury? He clearly has a taste for all the finer things and he hasn't for a single second denied or pretended otherwise. He's always traveled in beautiful cars, worn great suits and played with the finest toys. He's lived like that his whole life. Your premise is based on the moth-eaten notion that someone whose consciousness is high or who's a teacher should live and look like Mother Teresa... or at least pretend to. I've never seen him pretend at all. I've spent a good bit of time around him and I've NEVER gotten the impression from him that money was any big deal to him...a useful and necessary means to accomplish whatever he wanted to do in a money-based society. And if you can't be objective enough to see that he's accomplished more (like it or not) than you or any 100 people you know, you're the one being dishonest. There are a few hundred thousand people around the world who'll be happy to tell you that he's the greeatest and most inspiring person they've ever met. How many would say that about you? Think about it for a second. '7. As I have experienced, and many others on this forum have stated, the meditation techniques work even after M has been rejected. Why does M insist on the Master/Student relationship? The obvious explanation is that removing that relationship would lose M his source of income. Do you have a more plausible explanation?' That relationship, for me, is the greatest part. As to your experiences, I have no way of knowing to what degree they work and how much you feel. Most people I know who no longer stay in touch with Maharaji, either stop practicing altogether or sporadically get a little 'hit.' I know a couple who, all exclamations of how 'great' they're doing aside, their visble wattage, radiance, whatever...is wayyyyy down. But I have no way of knowing about anyone else. That relationship is my favorite part. '8. The adoration and love premies feel for M is indistinguishable from that of other students for their masters, or for pop fans for their pop music idols, etc. Why do premies hold this up as something holy? The obvious answer is that premies are locked in a cult. Do you have a more plausible explanation?' I don't know what other people feel for their teachers. Certainly the feelings I have for Maharaji don't even faintly resemble the feelings I've had for Pop icons, not even close. I've been a fan of many people, I've been a student of one. It feels extremely special and living...it's not at all like seeing Mick Jagger from the 38th row and screaming in wild abandon, fun as that is. It's seeing someone who knows your heart from the inside and out. Go ahead and retch, I don't care. '9. Why does M never teach anything more than the basic introductory stuff? The obvious answer is that he is not very interested in his followers reaching further understanding, just to keep them following. Do you have a more plausible answer? Because the 'basic introductory stuff' IS the ultimate stuff. And he works very hard to keep reminding his students to keep going to it because it works. Those who are looking for the 4th nectar technique and the 3B music technique have missed the point entirely. There's an enormous well of feeling that you can immerse yourself in. It's not like software requiring new features and updates. It's the route into the inner senses and though impossible to remember, it's also impossible to deny when it washes over you. And no, Anth, it has nothing to do with snot. Noone would still be with Maharaji if the 'basic introductory stuff' wasn't deeply satisfying, even after 20, 30 or 40 years. There are my answers, like 'em or not. Enjoy your night. And now kids, time to pounce! Billy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 22:53:27 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Billy Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: Maharaji is an irrelevance. An utter irrelevance. He is a substitute Father for some people. He's not the Lord and he lied like hell when he tried to convince people that he was, back when it was a money spinner. Worse than that, Maharaji has no remorse for the mistake he made when he conned people into believing he was the Lord. So what is he if he's not the Lord? He's an irrelevance. A small man in the scheme of things. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 00:40:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Billy Subject: Billy, that's as dumb as ever Message: Billy, if this is really the best thing you've got to offer to this discussion you should quit immediately. You just sound as dumb and superficial as every other premie who's come here. God, what's with you guys? I'm not going to deal with all your stupid answers -- and yes, they're stupid alright. Stupid in all sorts of ways but, really, who's got the time to sort out all your cult-affected cotton-brained nonsense? Not me. Instead, I'll just deal with two of your shallow comments. One's about Fakiranand: Last summer, in the presence of Gary Ockendon and my girlfriend, Laurie, Mike Donner told me in no uncertain terms that Maharaji ordered him to arrange for Fakiranand's prompt escape from the country. By admitting that Donner was implicating himself in a very serious crime, being an accessory after the fact to an attempt murder. But that's not the point. The point is that his story was completely believable and the very kind of 'evidence' that convicts people all the time. The more interesting question is 'do you care?' The other's about the ashrams: At the Kissimee program in 79 Maharaji gave satsang to the ashram premies alone. There, he told us in no uncertain terms that leaving the ashram was the worst thing we could contemplate, that it was an open invitation to life in hell. I was there and, much as Maharaji might wish otherwise, I haven't forgotten. But that wasn't so unique. Take a look at some of JM's stuff like the secret Initiator Handbook, the one where he threatens that crew with complete destruction should they ever leave their service. Of course, a few years later he scrapped the program. You're an idiot. I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't have posted anything to you. It's just that I have no patience for you assholes who distort my memories of my life just to protect your fuckign cult leader. Listen, Billy. I'm going to repeat what I've said before. The IRS has been contacted about all the various scams that Maharaji's benefitted from. Sooner or later, it won't jsut be a matter of some cranky ex's asking a few pesky questions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 04:45:58 (EDT)
From: Curious Email: None To: Billy Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: 'If it did happen, my heart goes out to the woman (or women) in question. ' If m did protect people such as these would that change your 'relationship' with him? Regarding the ashram you are wrong. Any SERIOUS ashram premie knew it was for life and if they left they were worse than dead. Initiators that left would break into 1000 pieces(see initiator manual). If you were ever in ashram meetings with him, then you were'nt listening...you were probably just ogling him like most of us as he told that the difference between the ashramees and 'ordinary' premies was that we had dedicated our lives, nothing was our own. Wow what a privilage! Regardeing money and riches he has always abused the premies generosity. I remember at the 'rejoices' in the 80s when he had to have his own private suite just to go for a smoke. There were people there who had mortgaged their houses and made themselves homeless just because he said he wanted evryone to attend so that he could show them the techniques to remove any confusion from the past. Unless prempal is a personal friend of yours, your 'relationship' exists only in your mind. Like most ordinary people he only keeps close to him those of his friends who he has known a long time(eg Sampuranand...that obese scumbag who was(is?) in charge of the Maharoli ashram...woops sorry 'knowledge centre') Why not try a real test like asking him about the accusations against jagdeo and his ilk? He will tell you that all that has nothing to do with k.....and if he denies it then let us all know here. He has clearly made the victims plight worse by being silent on this issue, and premies not willing to address the issue makes it really hard for anyone to give them any respect. But, hey, it doesn't matter because they have the True Lord....so anything goes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 08:56:15 (EDT)
From: QP_SUPPORTER Email: jfk@hotmail.com To: Billy Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: Well, I think that Billy answers make sense. Are these the rantings of a lunatic, brainwashed person? Not likely. OK, guys, You are hurt, feel cheated, disappointed and what not. For whatever reason (true or not). That gives you the right to moan and complain and be pissed. But it does not give you the right to be righteous and so cynical and obtuse. So, you do not like K or M. Fine. Then move forward. What a waste of time to be stuck in the past. This forum, until not long ago was the only public voice on the net about M and K. That is changing as you know. How do you feel reading hundreds of comments made by people in the ELK site? (I know you did sent forged messages, to 'catch' them...In any case, you got what you deserved). Have you checked the other sites? Accept it: You are disgruntled, so be it. Now move on and have a good life. Forget about M, K and the rest. You are free. Move on. This will be my last posting on your site. It is kind of boring reading about all your stuff. Does not produce any results, lacks challenge and interest. Boring, really. I know I am going to get flammed badly for these comments, and hope that this do not give you more ammunition to your rantings. It probably will. So that is why is better for me (an other PWK lurking here) to leave you guys and gals alone with your little forum. -jfk Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:54:37 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: Issues requiring answers Message: QPS, Please respond to my arguments above regarding the techniques and commandments. Regarding the Internet, this is another thing M has suddenly changed his mind about. He really doesn't come over as a wise man. Anyway, I have checked the other M sites, and if anyone wanted evidence of M's thing being a cult, then they are it! Regarding your 'Move On' advice, hey, don't you know that this is fun? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:57:07 (EDT)
From: Roger Missionary Drek Email: None To: QP_SUPPORTER Subject: Let Freedom Ring! Message: This forum, until not long ago was the only public voice on the net about M and K. That is changing as you know. How do you feel reading hundreds of comments made by people in the ELK site? (I know you did sent forged messages, to 'catch' them...In any case, you got what you deserved). Have you checked the other sites? Indeed, we've looked at all the other sites and we've read those hundreds of letters from premies. It's all the same lame cult brainwashed thinking. It's so lame that it is nearly impossible for me to read it because I'm embarrassed to say my thinking was very much the same. It's kind of like you do this goofy stuff as a kid and you get older and think about it and you cannot believe that you did it. Accept it: You are disgruntled, so be it. Now move on and have a good life. Forget about M, K and the rest. You are free. Move on. Yes, like JHB said, this is fun! Also, it's a damn good thing to be doing to be providing an online deprogramming center for those people who want to get out of Maharaji's cult. Additionally, this site and others provide information for those considering getting into Maharaji's cult. Just as Maharaji has a mission and has to some degree given you the same mission to spread this Knowledge, we have an undeclared mission too. And, IMHO, that mission is to: 1. Heal ourselves 2. Help people get out of the cult 3. Help people avoid getting into the cult in the first place 4. And maybe have a little fun in the process And, there's absolutely no money in it for any of us. The Internet is great for this purpose because it provides a medium for the inexpensive free flow of information. It's no wonder why Maharaji told his premies to stay away from the Internet. And, now he's launched his counterattack. Too lame, too late! Yes, you say you will stop reading the Forum, but you might come back. I said many of the things that you said when I first visited the Forum and now look at me. (reply with some insult here!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 18:42:50 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: laughable, Billy! Ha HA !! Message: Maharaji is and always has been more radiant, wiser, funnier and speaks far more directly to me than anyone I've ever met or seen. His brother isn't and never was in the same ballpark as him in any of these areas. He's exactly like the jealous Duke or Prince in any legend or story. Common Billy, give me a break! the the difference between prempal and satpal is not that of some glorious and noble king and his jealous duke brother as you suggest)...but its more like Laurel and Hardy getting a divorce...or Abbott and Costello, or Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton...ONLY, ALL those guys were alot more funny than m and big brother bubblegum, are ,or can ever hope to be. And they never could cause as much harm as those two... especially as little brother prem has. Nice try Billy:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:36:01 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: Pretend answers ,Billy! Message: I think he likes luxury very much, which is not all that unusual if you think about it for a minute and a half.. Do you enjoy luxury? He clearly has a taste for all the finer things and he hasn't for a single second denied or pretended otherwise. He's always traveled in beautiful cars, worn great suits and played with the finest toys. He's lived like that his whole life. Your premise is based on the moth-eaten notion that someone whose consciousness is high or who's a teacher should live and look like Mother Teresa... or at least pretend to. I've never seen him pretend at all. If he doesn't pretend then why is their so much secrecy regarding his true relationship to Amtext? Whats the pretense there? You're full of it again Billy. As far as I'm concerned, I've never seen m NOT pretend. BTW, BILLY I hope that Gulfstream flies better than your bullshit revisionism, or the Boss is in trouble. M's life of luxury, was built largely on the backs of ashram premies who worked in companies such as Rainbow groceries, and for a while during its beginning years for Amtext in almost slave labor conditions. And again, m IS pretending that it isn't so. In fact his entire cult is a 'pretend' world, Billy. Thats one of the reasons people get so sick of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:43:11 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: Nim Subject: Not to me Message: Hi Nim, You're entitled to your opinion. In the time I've spent with Maharaji over a few decades, I've never seen him pretend. Not even for a fleeting moment. The only times I've felt odd with him were when I was not exactly being genuine. Once I started just being myself and saying what I thought I've had nothing but fun with him. Enjoy yourself, Billy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:11:26 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Billy Subject: Enjoying yourself with M Message: Oh oh, here I go. You say you've enjoyed yourself with Maharaji? But have you ever spent 10 minutes talking with him? How can you be close to someone you don't even know? How can you give your time, and life to someone you don't even know? I mean REALLY know, beyond all the hype and the veils. If you are having an experience of universal truth or of light and love, it's not in me to try to talk you out of it, Billy. You sound like a genuine person, and I sincerely don't want to get into an argument with you. But I realized that my 'relationship' with M was based on dreams and fairy tales, it wasn't real. I was in love with a cardboard cut-out and I had filled in the blanks with my own imaginative ideas of God. I do not think there is anything wrong with imagining God, by the way, but M is something else altogether. I think most premies do not WANT to look beneath the veils and the hype to see the real nature of the man. But I would challenge you to do that because I think you and ALL PREMIES DESERVE to know more about this guy you have GIVEN YOUR LIFE TO. (All caps for emphasis, not yelling) Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:58:20 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: Helen Subject: Enjoying yourself with M Message: Hi Helen, 'Oh oh, here I go. You say you've enjoyed yourself with Maharaji? But have you ever spent 10 minutes talking with him? How can you be close to someone you don't even know? How can you give your time, and life to someone you don't even know? I mean REALLY know, beyond all the hype and the veils.' It's a fair question. Since you asked nicely, I'll answer it. I've spoken with him on many occasions, over many years, usually for more than 10 minutes. Beyond all hype or preconceptions, he's delightful company, unpretentious, warm and very funny. He can be kind of shy in larger groups, which may seem odd for someone who's spoken to large gatherings since he was little, but it's understandable in that so many people approach him in a clamoring 'Gimme, gimme, gimme...I need, I need (voice of Bill Murray)...fulfill my fantasy!' way without respecting his space or taking a minute to look at who they're talking to. The suggestions I've read on this page that 'he doesn't know what he's teaching' or is some kind of a vibrational lightweight are laughable. The feeling emanating from him is very strong, central, joyous and wise. He shows lots of personal concern for different people that is the antithesis of what you read here. He doesn't encourage or enjoy zombie-like behavior in any form. His brain is lightning fast and he picks up and absorbs stuff faster than anyone I've ever seen. And, in what may mildly shock some here, he regularly makes jokes at his own expense. Quite a subtle, fascinating character. And just so it's quite clear, no malice, nastiness or evil in his system that I've ever been able to detect. Fun-loving and very giving. You may have been in love with a fill-in-the-blanks cardboard cutout...that doesn't mean he is one. Best to you, Billy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:49:53 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Billy Subject: Enjoying yourself with M Message: well at least you've had some personal experience with him, so you are better qualified than I to address the question. I just am very very suspect of this kind of worship..and of M's exploitation of others for wealth. But Billy, I ain't going to make 'converting' you my 'crusade'. It upsets me too much to get into fights with premies. I am basically a peace loving person, too sensitive to throw 'fuck yous' around on the the forum (because even if I can dish it out, I can't take it!!) So--just be careful brother Peace to ya Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:13:30 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: We know who you are, Billy! Message: Ok Billy Nilly, so youre a freak of nature and m is a freak of nature and you both groove on each others company. Now fuckie duckie doo. Do you know how many testimonials there have been of m's conduct and behavior that contradicts your very lovely tale. What about the harm he and his cult have brought to so many? O, how can I count the ways?! So you've been a PAMer from the very ealy days. Congratulations. Your a long time accomplice mandated to do a pathetic bullshit revisionistic number on this forum, and... you're a patholigical liar to boot. We got your number Billy Nilly. And we'll keep you posted. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:26:13 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nim Subject: Did you see my post Message: to you regarding the babe comment...it's on the other side now, you can catch it, it's in the 'Question' thread (the dreaded qp thread)! I was NOT offended by your calling me a babe, are you kidding???? As I approach middle age and middle age spread, being called a babe is music to my ears. great to see you back here. Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:41:42 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes Helen, I did... Message: ...and thank you. It is quite a relief to know I didn't offend you and that my 'babe' comment was taken in the way it was meant:) I noticed your post in the other thread but I got so busy in the 'urgent business' of answering the premie revisionists who 'grace' our forum every so often. Busy days for me workwise, but it seems impossible to stay away, even if its just to read a few posts ONLY(at least thats what I say to myself)but then you know what happens. Anyways I feel that you said it best when you said something about the importance of finding the right measure of the forum in one's life(have we had this conversation before? hm) Its been helpful for me to be here, even if it hasn't always been easy. And you my dear keep em coming as 'smooth as buttah'. Oy vey! I think I'm becoming farklempt!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 23:29:41 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nim Subject: Yes Helen, I did... Message: HA HA--'I'm verclempt, talk amongst yourselves (sob, slurp, choke)' Oy, I do not have the forum in the right balance lately, I'm getting all addicted again. What is it about this place? I get so addicted my eyes are crossed. Well, I have a freelance writing job in addition to my real job so I better get un-addicted fast, dear Nimmie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 23:47:12 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: Nim Subject: You don't have the slightest.. Message: Dear Nim. You have no idea who I am...and judging from your over-all hostility and wild verbal flailing you don't have much of an idea of who you are either. I haven't been 'mandated' or asked to do anything. I just decided to answer JHBs questions as straight as possible. The fact that he didn't acknowledge that or that you can't stand the idea of anyone having feelings for Maharaji different than your own are entirely your problem. Perhaps noone who enjoys Maharaji and knowledge should say anything here so you can have your own little 'Yeah...me too!' tar n' feather hate club. The only person that answered me with any civility was Helen, to her credit. Try to enjoy your weekend, Billy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:45:55 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Billy Subject: Billy - Your Response Message: Billy, I did respond to the issue of the techniques changing, but as you and QP_Supporter both claimed they hadn't my response was to QP_Supporter entitled 'He DID change the techniques'. Read it, and then try to tell me they haven't changed since 1972. Regarding commandments, at least you accept he did change them. QP_Supporter denies even that. The Jagdeo issue has been answered well by others, and the ongoing thread with SHP includes all the evidence. Do you think M will respond to SHP's email? The ashram issue has also been well responded to by others. He DID threaten ashram premies with dire consequences if they left the ashram. Maybe you missed it, but too many didn't for you to deny it. Your other responses, with refreshing honesty, just confirm you are in love with M, and will defend him as a lover can defend a criminal. I used to think I loved him, but I can tell you from experience, the love disappears like early morning mist on a sunny day, when you open your eyes. And the clarity of vision afterwards, is a wonder to behold. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:55:34 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Billy Subject: to Billy Message: You seem to have forgotten that we were most definately not told by him that he was anything but the lord in person. No cardboard cut out of our making. You choose to overlook his still ongoing efforts to portray himself as in fact god incarnate. I wonder how many people you know if 'his brain is lightning fast' is somehow out of the ordinary. In case you forgot, OUR brains were only for having devotion to him. You talk about him like somehow endless hours of video watching can't give us the picture of him for ourselves. Did you happen to notice the midlife crisis his mom's death put him in? Or when you watch the videos you just walk away not remembering virtually anything he was talking about. Or, you dont listen enough to hear him talk about himself or you think that he only talks about others or to you. I dont think you know him. I think you are just blotting out all the years and what he has said to you and you dont care, or have put up blocks, to stepping back and seeing wether or not it matters that he plays god when he is not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 16:54:15 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: bb Subject: to Billy Message: Say what????????? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 01:33:21 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Billy Subject: to Billy Message: Fine, I leave you to the others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:16:12 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: BBBUllshit BBBilly!! Message: He shows lots of personal concern for different people that is the antithesis of what you read here He shows personal concern for those people who have something meaningful to offer him in fullfilling his twin goals of increasing his fortune, and attaining total domination over his followers. I know of others who weren't even worth a letter of encouragement from m, when they needed one, or at least wrote to m seeking such at very critical moments in their life. These are people who had given so much to m and really sought nothing for themselves, but when their moment of critical need happened, either in the face of some terminal illness, or some serious accident...m didn't even have it in him to write or offer one word of encouragement. Lets face it Billy. M may be nice to those he considers his closest accomplices. He sees the rest of his premies as victims. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:14:43 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Nim Subject: M's Australian gardener Message: Hi Nim, When I was in Australia a few years back I met M's former (Australian) gardener. He was M's gardener for 20 years, when suddenly one day he was told that M was sacking him and wanted him to leave immediately. M said he didn't want to see him again. Maybe someone from Oz can expand on this. All the best Jethro Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 18:25:58 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: MMore BBullshit BBilly! Message: ...so many people approach him in a clamoring 'Gimme, gimme, gimme...I need, I need (voice of Bill Murray)...fulfill my fantasy!' way... And you're going to tell me that he doesn't set that up himself? Get the fuck out Billy, you're becoming a pathetic joke! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 00:17:22 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Nim Subject: Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! Message: The Billys of this world remind me of the people who were mesmorised by Hitler. Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 03:13:23 (EDT)
From: Billy Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! Message: 'The Billys of this world remind me of the people who were mesmorised by Hitler. Sieg Heil! Bole Shri!' This in response to my answering a couple of Qs without any bad will or venom. Not that you'd know, you miniscule toad, that I had relatives killed in the holocaust. You and Nim, by your responses, are terrible advertisements for your 'cause.' The rest of you should be embarrased by their words. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 04:54:44 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Billy Subject: Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! Message: I found it hard to admit that I was mesmorised by M in the same way that Hitler mesmorised people. Quite a few people on this forum, including myself, had relatives killed by Hitler. It does not dull the comparison. I am not embarrassed by the words. YOU should be embarrassed by the fact that ypu in any way admire a money-grabing, paedophile-protector. People like you are guilty by your silence. I think the term is guilty by ommission. What Hitler did physically M is doing 'spiritually'. You just don't see it do you?.....there again it took me over 20 years to see it. By the way I am not a miniscule toad. I am a living sentient human being, about 5' 9'., very handsome and I have a pierced ear with a golden earing in the shape of a dophin dancing. I also totally shave my head. My motto is 'never again'. Now go back to your Hitler master and tell yourself anything is ok. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 10:24:44 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Billy Subject: Sieg Heil! Bole Shri! Message: Not that you'd know, you miniscule toad, that I had relatives killed in the holocaust Irrelevant Billy. Especially when it comes from you. One minute you're Nil. The next moment, in order to hide your Nil-like vulgarity, you come back with Bullshit Billy's fake civility. How do we know what you're saying is true? Hm? And even if it were true, all you would be confirming for us is the extent to which your blind spot is so huge. To be affected by the holocaust, and yet to learn nothing from it...well that proves my point. If anything Billy, you've just made your presence here on this forum more contemptible. And we see through your deceit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 02:33:25 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Nim Subject: MMore BBullshit BBilly! Message: HA! Great point Nim (I did like the Bill Murray image though). Poor M, he set it up that way but it's soooo inconvenient to have all those stinky needy people wanting you to do something about their pain. Tsk tsk! Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:16:22 (EDT)
From: Dr Reich Email: None To: The resident inmates Subject: M-M-Maharaji Message: EX-PREMIE GETS HEAD SHRUNK!!! A six-month treatment at age 16 with a speech therapist was not helpful. Initial dating and sex commenced at age 19, and masturbation began a year later. His interest in Eastern philosophy, yoga, and meditation began at age 14, and, when he returned from the Viet Nam conflict, in which he excelled as an officer, he joined an ashram to follow the teachings of guru Maharaji. For six moths, he describes himself as 'blissed out,' with a month of perfect speech, totally free from stuttering. This remarkable event occurred after he felt loved and in the grace of the guru and experienced episodes of profound crying. In the month that he did not stutter, he perceived energy moving up and down the front of his body between his throat and genitals, with an altered consciousness he has not experienced since. This state could not be sustained, and stuttering resumed its prior frequency. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:51:14 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Dr Reich Subject: thanks, Dr. Mengeles.... Message: ...er, I meant Dr.Reich. Yes thank you for your cynical but delightful tale of a premie's dream being shattered, as there have been so many. Your story reminded me of one fellow in particular, who actually did stutter. He ended up committing suicide after he was told by a mahatma that he should give up pursuing his college education and move into the ashram. Of course we know what Nilly Billy would say: 'Ah, common put it away, asshole. So your friend died...too bad!' Thats it Doc, no more time for ya. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:07:23 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Nim Subject: Nim...write it for the record Message: Nim..Thanks for your response...This forum does not seem to have a search engine...so I cant go through all the backlogs searching for Amtext..unless I am wrong... I think M has a tight inner circle of few inners who know what the game is ...maybe not more then four and five...and I bet you...all these guys are in the US...the guys in charge of country Ev dont know what is going on...on a keep to know basis... Probably Chuck is one of the inner circle...as well as the bald guy...what's his name..and maybe just a few others.... Nim..we from the UK never heard of Rainbow groceries or Amtext...and M does not operate through businesses here as far as I can tell...mainly direct donations from the premies to his jet plane etc etc So you should write about your experience with Amtext in detail for the records...please TIA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 16:07:50 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: JHB Subject: My sentiments exactly Message: Great Post! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:15:45 (EDT)
From: Premmey Email: None To: Everyone Subject: ARTI Message: This is Larkin's Arti. Enjoy ARTI by Larkin Vegetation begins in the word of our master Re-education begins at the feet of our lord Subjugation begins in the form of our master Humiliation begins in the grace of our lord. Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji Your glory fills your head Exploiter of the weary and the weak You know the power of entrapment You showed us all just what 'crap' meant Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev Jai Satguru Dev Fabricator, self-server, destroyer Why do they bow and pray to you? Have they really nothing better to do? Guru gives true Knowledge Sign on right here at Mindwarp College Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev Jai Satguru Dev Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity Will never bring you knowledge of the soul Will never reveal your soul Without the grace of Satguru WITH OR WITHOUT our rich fat guru Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev Jai Satguru Dev In the river of bondage to Guru All are swept out to sea All are drowning there so blissfully Guru's boat is a holey one A 'watch yourself drown very slowly' one Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev Jai Satguru Dev Anger, desires, attachments Are what being human's all about Things we couldn't really do without Guru don't like self-expression, But anger suppressed is depression TIME TO LOSE YOUR CHAINS, STAND UP AND SHOUT! (Jai Dev, Jai Satguru Dev) Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji Tell us please, what sets you so apart? Why should people even give a fart? Without the grace of Satguru We might all find we've a lot to do Science, music, poetry and art, Jai Dev, So long Satguru Dev.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:20:18 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Premmey Subject: ARTI Message: Wow....reminds me of Ashram time...getting up at the crack of down and singing arti in front of the alter..the house mother would bring in the try with the gee candle...its always the house mother who swong it from side to side...no one else could touch it...all the ashram premies were sleepy and could not open their eyes.... Jay guru dev Maharaj Ji ...etc etc...and we used to sing it in Hindu and english as well.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:22:01 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Premmey Subject: ARTI Message: Brilliant! I sang it all the way through, and couldn't stop laughing! My favourite line, among many, was:- 'Guru's boat is a holey one' Poet Laureate award on its way.... John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:14:38 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Everyone Subject: remonve All Doubts Message: Hi everyone, I thought I'd try starting a thread for a change. Remove all doubt from your mind implies that k & m is based on faith. I thought he always said that it was about direct experience. Now I have managed to remove the garbage of m & k what is there to doubt? The sun comes up, it goes down, rain comes, flowers grow. Stars come out at night and life goes on. (I sound like the big M him self!) This is the first time in my life I have felt good about getting up in the morning. I can't tell you how free I feel. I hope it lasts! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:17:39 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: All Subject: Whoops Message: Whoops! Do I feel silly! Should read from Liz to All. And I can spell REMOVE! Great start, eh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:23:41 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Liz Subject: A Wonderful Whoops Message: Hi Liz, It is a beautiful morning. Loved your post. One of the greatest joys of being free is 'typos'. No more slick advertisements. Luv, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:06:27 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Liz Subject: Key Point Message: Remove all doubt from your mind implies that k & m is based on faith. I thought he always said that it was about direct experience. This is a crucial point, Liz, so thanks for keeping it alive from down below. The curcial point is that by the time someone has gone through the aspirant process, whatever that is depending on when they did it, they have to some degree been forced to repress doubts, or at least learn that you can't express them, or you won't receive knowledge, which by the time they receive it, one is likely convinced is the most wonderful experience possible, and they would forever hate themselves if they didn't get it. Even in M's public literature he says that 'You will have doubts' that one has to 'get rid of those doubts,' and that only 'then you will receive Knowledge.' He is quite blatant about it. But as you said, you can't possibly have your doubts satisfied, because you haven't had the experience yet, so you have to get rid of those doubts in another way. You have to repress them, have blind faith, and essentially learn the methods you must engage in to remain a premie. These are, to disregard your doubts and judgments about what is happening to you as a premie, learn to repress and discount your own judgment, and be in a place where you can't objectively decide about whether you think knowledge and Maharaji, and your experience with both of them, is good, bad or indifferent. This is what a cult does, and Maharaji even admits is the way his cult works. I think the key point is that most of the cult programming that goes on in Maharaji's cult is done before anyone receives knowledge. I know for me, by the time I received knowledge, even back in 1973, I wanted it so badly, that I agreed to set aside my doubts and have faith that it was the ultimate experience. Of course, I then did have an 'ultimate experience,' or so I thought I did. I then repressed doubts for the next 10 years, as I learned in the aspirant process, and as my master commanded by his 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND' commandment. And it's also true that Maharaji speaks out of both sides of his mouth about this. On the one hand he says to have understanding and get rid of your doubts before receiving knowledge, and then on the other hand he says that one knows him by his fruits and that you should just go by the experience and not beliefs. One of many of his contradictions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 19:42:14 (EDT)
From: Diz Email: None To: JW Subject: Key Point Message: Hi Liz, Mary, JW Another relevant point here is: doubts about WHAT? You make the valid point that logically you cannot get rid of doubts about whether the experience of meditation is worthwhile or not until you receive Knowledge. The best you can do, honestly, is suspend judgement. But what about doubts about other aspects of the trip? Even if, once you receive K, it is the best thing since sliced bread (and I, like you JW, thought it was in this league), does that mean that ANY OTHER question, about anything to do with MJ, premies, the way K is conceptualised, the organisation, etc etc is answered? Of course it doesn't. But this is the way it's put across. Logically, K can be valid, without anything else in MJ's world being valid. It took me a long time to understand that. It's so obvious when premies say that it's ABOUT 'that experience' that they, too, have swallowed the package deal. If they have doubts about MJ or his pronouncements or the way things get done, then either those doubts are invalid, because MJ gives K, and K is valid, or those doubts are irrelevant, because that's not what it's ABOUT. There are so many ways in which MJ - and other cults too - ensure that issues don't even get to the point of being raised, let alone discussed or resolved. Diz PS Liz I'm so glad you find waking up to a new day such a buzz. To reclaim simple pleasures, as they are, without having to link them to 'gratitude' or to their being a reflection of the TRUE experience, takes time and effort. Congratulations. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 21:50:52 (EDT)
From: Seeking God not Maharaji Email: None To: Diz & JW Subject: Key Point Message: thank you for your posts. they really ring true. yours do also JW. Keep going! I am so glad to have found this site! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:29:10 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Diz Subject: Key Point Message: Diz, Great post! I can't agree with you more. Lumping Knowledge together with the whole package is what got me stuck and confused the heck out of me when discovering this site and agreeing with the exes on some points. I have since realized that enjoying Knowledge doesn't have to mean buying into everything else that comes with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:30:54 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Diz Subject: Allowable Doubts Message: But what about doubts about other aspects of the trip? Even if, once you receive K, it is the best thing since sliced bread (and I, like you JW, thought it was in this league), does that mean that ANY OTHER question, about anything to do with MJ, premies, the way K is conceptualised, the organisation, etc etc is answered? Of course it doesn't. But this is the way it's put across. For me, Diz, knowledge only 'worked' because I believed it did. Otherwise, it was just meditation techniques that might be valuable to some people, might calm you down, etc., but really no different than TM and lots of other meditations. But acknowledging that would be DOUBT -- and you have to believe knowledge is the ultimate and also that Maharaji is the source and beyond criticism. Those are the two unallowable doubts. First that knowledge works and is the 'ultimate' experience, not that it 'works' just as a form of meditation. Second, Maharaji is beyond criticism, is perfect, and has some kind of power to both give you the experience you believe you are having and that he has some kind of plan to spread it to the world. The rest, including his organization and the premies, can, of course, be criticized to no end, and actually take the brunt of the doubt and criticism one cannot direct towards Maharaji. Logically, K can be valid, without anything else in MJ's world being valid. In my view, it depends. Valid as WHAT? Valid as a nice, pleasant experience that relaxes you and maybe slows your mind down, or as some kind of perfect 'place' that is true joy and happiness. I think it can be valid as the former, but, in my experience, isn't the latter. But to believe the former, in Maharaji's world is, by definition to doubt. A premie cannot follow Maharaji and just believe knowledge is nothing more than 4 meditation techniques. It has to be more special than that, and that's what requires programming and indoctrination, as well as a belief system, and a mechanism to protect the belief system from your own doubts. Hence, you can't have doubts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:09:58 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Liz Subject: remonve Message: Glad you are using the new thread button Liz! Your post just felt like a clean morning watching sunrise with a coffee. Congrats! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 00:07:25 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: bb Subject: remonve Message: Thanks bb, I guess life is pretty good for you too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |