Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 45 | |
From: Apr 16, 1999 |
To: May 3, 1999 |
Page: 5 Of: 5 |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 12:08:38 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: katie@ex-premie.org To: Sandy & Everyone Subject: Accidental deletion re Jagdeo Message: Hi Sandy and all - Sandy, I am VERY sorry, but I just accidentally deleted our exchange about Jagdeo while cleaning OT posts out of the inactive. I'm still curious as to whether you read G's mom's Journeys entry, and what you thought about it. I can probably re-post my part if I have to - it's something I've said on here a lot. Sorry again! Katie (the diz) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 12:31:32 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: And further apologies Message: I also accidentally deleted other people's good posts on the subject of M - I particularly remember one by JHB, which I'm hoping Roger saved for 'Best of the Forum'. Anyway, sorry again, everyone - it was unfortunate and I will be more careful in the future. Katie P.S. It would help your unfortunate assistant webmaster if people would start new threads when discussing new topics (even if the new topic was brought up in the middle of an old thread). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:50:48 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks Katie Message: Katie: Yeah, I was wondering where they went....ooppss! :-) Anyway, I think one of mine was over-the-line anyway, so I don't mind it being removed. It just makes my blood boil when people try to white-wash THAT kind of criminal activity. Pedophiles are the absolute lamest excuse for human beings that I can think of and those that 'defend' them aren't any better (IMHO). Maybe I should avoid threads concerning this issue.... I see red whenver it comes up! ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:43:28 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: Accidental deletion re Jagdeo Message: I read G's mom's journey and checked out the reference in AJW's that she mentioned. It gave me the chills. Were Jagdeo's actions in Denver a direct reason for the Unity school not opening? It's amazing that this informtion wasn't broadcast among/by/for the premies like wildfire, especially among the parents at the time. I believe that real morality is what you do when you don't think anybody's looking. And if a kid is near you and there's no other adults around, then you are morally responsible for that kid's safety. Wolves do it, and so do other highly socialized animals. I believe this is also our natural way. I have a healthy fatherly love thing about kids, and delivered my first and assisted with the second. Just imagining anything like that happening to one of mine, especially if it happened while they were young and vulnerable and in the hands of someone I thought I could trust, makes me feel like a merciful fate would be brain surgery to remove the sex urge part or a lobotomy if necessary, put them on a chain gang and let them pick up litter or work in a recycling center and help the environment for the rest of their lives, living in basic housing and eating basic food. No standard media (TV, mags, pop music, etc) either. Jesus prescribes a millstone around the neck and being cast into the sea for offending a little one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:59:47 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Shp Subject: Accidental deletion re Jagdeo Message: Hey Shp, The 'Child Rapist' I caught was sent to prison for 38 years and out after 7 years. He then committed the same crime and was back in for 28 years, out after 5. I remember getting some bravery award etc. But, the most important contribution I feel I made was extracting the names of young girls he raped & molested (from him) which were 'unsolved' cases. Where I could, I let the parents of these girls know his name, whereabouts etc. Here in Florida we are fortunate to have the FDLE Web Site that we can check. He was not prosecuted by many of the victims because at that time children who were victims of sexual abuse were not treated gently if they took the stand. The very best thing I think you can do now is make sure this individual gets on a list in Maharaji's organization. I don't care if he is the top PAM banana. You now have a obligation to the 'nameless children whose terror haunts them every day of their lives'. Who will speak out for them? Who can bring them closure? Pedophelia is an incurable condition. Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:13:06 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Mary M Subject: reply to Mary M Message: Mary, I will do what you suggested and report the name and the incident to Maharaji's organization, for the sake of the children. And no matter how long ago it happened, it could happen again. I'm not a expert ont the subject, but from what I've read and heard, these folks don't get well very often, if at all. I'll speak for the children, it's a privilege. By the way, may I have your e-mail address? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:15:40 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Mary M Subject: reply to Mary M...ps Message: Mary M, This is the most worthwhile exchange I have had here. And for all the hassles it took to get to this point, if it saves one kid from being hurt, it was all worth it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:20:44 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Shp Subject: reply to Mary M...ps Message: Oh Shp, My tears are overflowing right now. There are few who feel for the children as do you. I've gotta go find my tissues.... Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:08:24 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Shp Subject: Jagdeo Message: As you know from my journey Rawat does already know about Jagdeo. I am supportive that you are going to take more action on this. May I suggest that you do think about how you do it. I think it would work best if you make sure the way you handle this makes him/them look bad if they do not respond. Also, the most important thing is to make sure word gets spread to all the premies since Rawat never protected the kids by doing that. Please let me know how it goes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:15:53 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Jagdeo Message: G's mom, First, my heart goes out to you. I have e-mailed Mary M and somebody I know in CA about the guy I knew of. I trust that it will be handled properly. I will also follow up to see what happens and let you know about any feedback. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:17:49 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Jagdeo Message: Hi g's mom, I'd wager by now that M/Jag/HammerHead don't look to good. I agree, the children's protection comes first and will keep you posted. Luv, Mary Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:18:03 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Shp Subject: reply to Mary M Message: Shp, I admire your courage in this decision. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and from the hearts of those you have just protected. My e-mails above. Please accept my apology for the title of my other post (I let Katie know she could delete it) I also ask for your forgiveness in that I have castigated you inappropriately on this issue. Sincerely, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:27:18 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Thanks, Mary Message: Thanks, Mary - I will delete it. I did think it was unfair to Sandy, since he told the children's mother, and let her handle it from there. I can't say that I would have done more than that either, back then. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 01:10:24 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Put it all together, Shp Message: Or maybe what I mean is 'put your money where your mouth is'. If G-mom's telling the truth we can and must assume that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo's proclivities. We also know he did nothing to take Jagdeo out of circulation but instead let him continue prowling from one DLM (EV) centre to the next. Put it together, Shp. Judge Maharaji and judge him now. Otherwise, your professed concern about all this looks like an amazingly gross facade. No, the time has come -- you wanted somethnig to chew on, well here it is. Act. Show some moral courage for a change. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 20:54:50 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Moral courage 'jam' festival Message: Jim, I just completed a post to answer your 'not so fast' piece and by the time that I submitted it, it rolled over and I lost everything. So I will try to summarize and then go. I am concentrating on quality, not quantity. 1) Don't push me. 2) You don't know me, so whatever you say about my having or not having moral courage is moot. You are always entitled to your opinion, but I don't respond well to namecalling and peer pressure. 3) I have reported both the guy I knew of in the 80's and Jagdeo's stories as told here to someone in California who I have known for years and who I trust will log it with the proper people. This person knows I expect feedback that it was done and done properly. This is probably a better shot than going direct to EV, etc. But I could do that too. I have also reported the guy I knew to Mary M so she could put his name on her database. I did not know about pedophilia being chronic and incurable at the time, I think few of us did, so I honored the mom's wishes to keep it quiet and let it go. Now here in the 90's, Mary M gave me a wake-up call and I responded to her promptly and glad to help. 4) I have 'walked a mile in g's mom's shoes' inside to make it more real for me and have more compassion and empathy. I hope the healings of her and her friends are continuing and complete soon. 5) Previous sniping exchanges between us pale when compared to the matter of child abuse. Some real good can be done here to save kids from harm. I am trying to help prevent future scenarios. 6) Billy said something about Jagdeo being 'exiled' to Fiji, but hey, guess what Billy? THERE'S KIDS IN FIJI TOO! Do the locals know about his sexual preferences involving kids? If not, who's responsible? 7) And finally, Jim, I know that you sincerely believe in what you are doing right now. So do I believe sincerely in what I am doing right now. One day at a time. I have noticed a civility in your posts that have allowed us to communicate information more without the energy wasting negativity, and I don't think it's my imagination. I just wanted acknowledge this observation. 8) Jam needs bread to put it on, or it just goes all over. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 21:22:04 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: Nibbling the crust Message: Shp, You're pathetic. You are, at this point, the perfect embodiment of the little metaphor I came up with (if I don't say so myself) -- the premie who's like a little kid trying to play ball. Here comes a pop fly -- stick out your glove and squint real hard. Maybe, just maybe, you won't get hit. You might even catch the thing. Shp, you've got a very simple moral challenge here. You must determine for yourself: 1) if Maharaji knew that Jagdeo was a child molester (or even an alleged one, for that matter; 2) what, if anything, he did to keep premie kids out of harm's way; and, finally, 3) what your opinion is of a person who respodned to the situation as Maharjai did. No one gives a flying fuck about your sympathy for G's mom. And how typically presumptuous for you to claim that you've 'waled a mile' in her shoes. That takes the cake. What matter, Shp, is what you're going to do about it. So you've reported Jagdeo to someone or other and think that they'll 'log it with the proper people'. What next, Shp? What next? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 07:39:06 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: None of your business Message: until I think it is. Out of the mouth of babes comes truth: YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:18:17 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: Then shut the fuck up Message: Shp, The reason you say this is because you know you're cornered. You know it, you know it, you know it. There just isn't any more room for your smiley-faced evasions. You first came here ... when? Searching for the truth, were you? Well now you've got it in spades, at least enough that you're absolutely forced by your own conscience to do something. You simply cannot, in good conscience, go see Maharaji again, sing the lovie-dovie guru feel-good songs or buy a few more trinkets or what have you without knowing if he let Jagdeo continue to circulate once he knew the guy was a sexual predator. That's YOUR problem, Shp. You know damn well that no one wants to hear anything further from you until you've dealt with this. You said as much yourself. You know you're not welcome and you're right. Get lost. You wanted to learn something about about Maharaji. Well now you have. Get out of here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:56:56 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: There you go again. Message: Jim, You were doing just fine until you called me pathetic, compared me to a child trying to catch a pop-up, badmouthed my empathy with g's mom, and tried to strong-arm me into an immediate answer to you just as brutal as any mahatma threatening an ashram premie with hell for leaving. From the World Book Dictionary: Pathetic: arousing pity, pitiful, moving, touching, affecting, of the emotions, that affect the emotions, arousing passion or other powerful emotions, stirring. Pity: sorrow for another's suffering or distress, feeling for the sorrows of others, compassion, sympathy, a cause for pity or regret, to feel pity for, be sorry for, to feel pity, be compassionate. Yes, I am pathetic, and I believe so are we all who are involved in this matter of trying to sort out who did/knew what when with regard to child abuse. That's a good thing. You seem more enamoured with your faulty metaphors than interested in connecting with the people you talk to. As for my expression of compassion for g's mom, how dare you judge it and me. That's all I have to say about that. I am not cornered, never was. Anyway, if there is a corner in this matter and I find myself there, then that's where the door will be. I am not the asshole you take me for. My name means something: Peaceful Crossing. Sanford is derived from the days when the Vikings had to lug their boats over the fiords, and a rocky fiord was going to be rough, especially on the feet. But a sandy fiord meant a peaceful crossing. Whatever I am going to do, I want it to be peaceful. Passion for a cause doesn't have to always involve 'slash and burn'. Your pride messes up your message. And as a lawyer, you know better than most the difference between circumstantial evidence and hard evidence. Jagdeo has been identified by many folks in different places as a child molestor, that is agreed. What Maharaji's part was in knowing about it and when is still hazy to me, from what I have read here. I am not on your timetable. And I am paying alot of attention to this matter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:11:09 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Shp Subject: Maharaj ji knowing.... Message: I will say it again. In 1977 I relayed it to a premie bigwig that I considered trustworthy. He said he would tell Rawat. I cannot say that I 100% recall what he told me Rawat said but I am fairly sure he told me he had told Rawat. In 1983 I told Judy Osborne. She told Rawat. She got back to me. She told me Rawat...'had already heard' about this and was glad it was not a new incident. This basically proves he was told twice. AJW did not say that Rawat knew that was why Unity School was closed. But it seems HIGHLY bizarre that something as big as Unity School closing over Jagdeo molesting children would be kept from the Guru. No way...the premies would have have told the Lord for the same reason I did. So that is three notifications I know of. The fact that one came from England and one came from US REALLY adds to the credibility. Rawat HAD to know it was TRUE. Also, common sense tells me he heard from other victims. No way were I and Unity School the only times he heard. Sanford, I know it is hard to face but that is the truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:19:26 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: all Subject: telling Rawat Message: Isn't it ironic? I could never have 'told' Rawat myself. I did my best to tell him. What was I supposed to do? Yell it out at the next festival? In the Darshan line, stop, say 'Jagdeo is a child molester ?' And thus Rawat is protected from responsibilty. I wonder if Judy Osborne and the bigwig tell the truth about this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:29:18 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Thanks for the information. Message: The question you pose about Judy and the bigwig in the above post is worth asking. When I walked a mile in your mocaissins in my head (as per Jim's ridicule), I imagined having had all that weird stuff happening to me and then seeing Jag in the darshan tunnel shortly after. Unbelieveable. I don't fault you for not coming out until you did andhow you did. This sort of trauma has long-term effects. I have printed out your last two posts for my files. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:22:08 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Shp Subject: Thanks for the information. Message: As you know, the 'its all illusion' crowd have only thier own 'experience' to concern themselves with and no need to bother about some pesky god, there is only the 'master' and he can play god without consequences also because there is no god to worry about. It has some holes in the logic and they have some ugly effects on people. Consider the childlike trust we put in and the rape of our freedom of action and thought by another great soul, the lord. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 15:37:08 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: shp Subject: telling Rawat Message: Shp, maybe being a premie still you can understand this. If you read my journey the incident itself, what happened to me, was although very disgusting, not something I was that traumatized by. It certainly did however, make my friends story and what she said other little girls( younger than me 8-12) said VERY believable. Really, my faith in Rawat made the incident not that traumatic. I so fully believed he would fix it that it really was not personally that traumatic. What was traumatic was realizing he had done nothing. And that the fact that he did nothing meant I had done nothing. I felt very betrayed. Probably like the child that tells her mother about a molestation and is not believed. To this day I strongly suspect if I had responded appropriately, told my mom, the police, that Jagdeo might have had real action taken against him. That action might have spared a child this sort of trauma. Even if he was not convicted, Rawat might have been forced to really do something if only to protect his own image. I feel really bad about that. That is why I feel betrayed by Rawat, I trusted him and he let me down. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 16:18:11 (EDT)
From: JB Email: None To: g's mom Subject: Maharaj ji knowing.... Message: Hi g's mom, First, let me say how sorry I am that what happened to you, happened. Something similar happened to me as a kid (in a totally different environment) and there are quite a few sickos around, as evidenced by the tragedy the other day. I just wanted to mention that I'd had an experience with a bigwig, Mike Donner, who had said he'd passed along info to Maharaji and would get back to me with the reply. It turned out later that he'd never passed along the info and had invented the reply. He apparently did this many times. I don't know if he was your 'bigwig' but in those days both Donner and Mishler were known to have done this, especially Donner. Just a possibility for you to consider as this did go on. Stay well, JB Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 21:47:40 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: JB Subject: Hi JB Message: No he wasn't the one. It was passed along. Judy Osborne said Rawat had recieved the message the fisrt time. I had not told her there even WAS a first time TO MAKE sure HE GOT THE MESSAGE. You see? I did not tell Judy I had ever told Rawat before. Until she told me Rawat had already heard about this incident, then I said yes, I had told so and so years ago, and then she said that so and so was a good person and of course he passed it along. Nope, Rawat knew. Judy confirmed to me, independantly, that he had already been told. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 21:45:55 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: You can lead a horse to water Message: Shp, You're absoltuely right. While we agree that Jagdeo molested G-mom and others there's no way of knowing if the unnamed 'bigwig' or Judy Osborne actually did tell Maharaji like they said they did. So, to clear things up sooner rahter than later, I took the liberty of sending Maharaji the following: 'Hi Maharaji, An issue's arisen on the ex-premie forum that only you can resolve. As you apparently know, Jagdeo molested several children in various premie communities in the 1970's. One ex-premie advises that she told a 'premie bigwig' in 1977 that she'd been assaulted by Jagdeo and this 'bigwig' later told her that he had indeed informed you. Furthermore, she claims to have told Judy Osborne in 1983. Osborne's response was that you 'had already heard' about this and were glad, as she recalls Osborne telling her, 'that this wasn't a new incident'. My question, then, is whether that's true. Did you know about Jagdeo's tendency to abuse little girls? If so, when? Personally, I'm satisfied that the ex-premie's truthful and, for some crazy reason, I tend to believe that at least one of Osborne and the 'bigwig' weren't lying. But that's just me. Actually, I'm in the midst of discussing this matter with one of your current premies, an American, Sanford Pass. Do you know him? He knows you in any event. Anyway, Mr. Pass (who posts as 'Shp' on the ex-forum) doesn't know what to think about this issue. Did you know back then? Shp wants to know and, for that, he needs your help. So, Maharaji, what's the answer? Did you know? When? Ever grateful as always, Happy new breath, Jim Heller' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:28:45 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Jim Subject: Did you really send this? Message: Did you really send this letter to Maharaji? You are incredible. Please, continue. By the way, did you get your law degree before, during or after your premie days? What is your legal specialty? Just curious...it's hard to imagine a lawyer actually falling for all this stuff, so 'before' doesn't work. Then again, there isn't any time to do anything but devotion, so 'during' doesn't work. Must have been 'after' -- is my guess -- but where the hell could anybody get the $$$ to go to law school after decades in the ashram? Love, victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 22:46:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Sure, I sent it Message: and ain't the net great? I just wish I had Shp's email to give to Maharaji. I went to law school (USC) on a combined package of scholarships, student loans and my father's generosity from '84 to '87. I am, by nature, easy to fool. A few years ago I lost an unpronounceable sum in an investment that some, but not all, more savvy people might have shied away from. I'm still fighting my way back out of the hole on that one. Law school's great for learning critical thinking but Maharaji gets you to try to unplug your very critical thinking machine. Who cares how well it works if it's not on? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 00:35:54 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: If it's thirsty, it'll drink Message: Jim, You beat me to it. Sayings with horses seem to be appropriate, another being getting the answer from the horse's mouth. I printed out g's mom's and AJW's journeys, and some recent posts from g's mom for my wife to read. We talked this evening and decided that the most appropriate thing to do would be to e-mail Maharaji and ask him about this directly. It was late when we talked and our e-mail will go out tomorrow. I have no problem with your letter of inquiry to Maharaji. It's simply common sense to to e-mail him directly. So tomorrow there will be another inquiry about the same thing from us. Perhaps Fr. Mickey can help me with the exact quote, it's kinda of late and I don't know where in the good book this quote is, but it says something like: '...Boldly approach the throne of grace and ask of him who upbraideth not and he will answer you....' So as well as the e-mail, I am asking inside, too, praying you might say. 'All secrets will be revealed', it says. I'm looking forward to that with hope for the futures of all concerned. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 00:42:54 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: Good for you, Shp Message: Honestly. Good for you. But now let's have a little fun and speculate. Do you think he's going to answer you? Oh sorry, I didn't specify. Do you think he'll answer you in your lifetime? Okay, okay. Who knows? Right? We'll just have to wait and see, I guess. But how 'bout this one: If he doesn't answer you, how will you read that? Don't want to go there? No problem. Let's just see what happens. But how long, Shp? How long? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 01:18:36 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Chill, Jim Message: Jim, There's a couple of quotes I ran across recently that struck me. One was in a magazine with a picture of someone who looked like he could be related to Maharaji. He looked like an old Polynesian guy, barrel-chested in swimming trunks at the beach. He was a famous old surfer, for real. The caption said something like 'Twenty years years ago he used to be called (some big name in Hawaiian or something with 'Kahuna' and 'White Lightning' in it) but now they just call him Billy.' Same guy. Different name. Less broo-haha. No problem. He was still who he was. The other quote was from Sophocles who said: 'Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.' Let's give it a little time and see what happens. How long? Let's see, how long do you think it ought to take? I imagine that Maharaji has e-mail access wherever he is on the planet. Given his busy schedule, have no idea how long it will take to get an answer. Maybe a follow-up inquiry in a few weeks if no answer by then.... Patience is a virtue. Smoke 'em if you got'em. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 11:23:59 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: Sure, let's wait....how long? Message: Shp, Your quote about the surfer makes for an excellent example of why you're a dolt. Maharaji wasn't just some surfer dude who painted 'The Lord' on his board and his jeep. As IF..... But as for what we were talking about, hey man, this is great. You must know that Maharaji will never answer my email. I mean, why should he? He never answered any of the others. And are you going to send one too? Let's see it if you do. But you know he won't answer that one either. At least the odds of him doing so, based on past performance, are infinitesimally small. So, sure, let's wait a few weeks. Today's the 23rd. Don't go away. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 12:31:16 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just sent my e-mail 4/23/99 Message: about 12:15 eastern daylight saving time. I asked specifically about Jagdeo being a documented child molestor and then being allowed to visit various cities over a period of years after his initial bust (g' mom). Anybody got a deck of cards? I'm not going anywhere, unless God takes me out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 02:24:15 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Shp Subject: Here it is... Message: Hebrews 4:16 (KJV) 'Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in the time of need.' Hebrews 4:16 (The Message [a modern paraphrase]): 'So let's walk right up to him and get what he is so ready to give. Take the mercy, accept the help.' Hebrews 4:16 (Mickey the Pharisee from the Greek): 'Let us come near the throne of grace, to recieve what we need and is given to us at the right time.' I don't know if these translations are helpful, but I think this is the passage your are quoting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 09:45:51 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Here it is... Message: Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:34:03 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Mary M Subject: reply to Mary M Message: Mary, You said: 'I also ask for your forgiveness in that I have castigated you inappropriately on this issue.' So I see that you are reserving the right to castigate me over other issues, eh? (comic releif, everybody needs it, and it's harder than tragedy. Mel Brooks said so.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 17:52:18 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Shp Subject: Pots and Pans Message: Well now SHP, I wouldn't luv ya now would I, if I didn't throw some pots and pans at ya once in awhile? I'll be a tad more careful as I might get a tasty tomato out of ye this spring;-) Now I must go find the thread where I left me pots and pans! M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 16:08:12 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Shp and all Subject: More about Jagdeo Message: Dear Sandy and all - I am glad you read G's mom's journeys entry. I think she was very brave to post it - she's taken a lot of flak from premies and others by coming forward. Before I knew G's mom, I heard another story about Jagdeo from a woman who does NOT wish to come forward (and I respect this very much - she's recovering from the abuse and doing very well). I think G's mom refers to this story in her journeys entry. This woman was molested repeatedly by Jagdeo, starting when she was seven years old, when he used to stay at a premie house she was living in with her parents. He also molested some of the other children that lived there. The adults in the premie house used to tell the kids that they should feel honored that Jagdeo wanted to be alone with them, because he was a mahatma and so forth. So nothing was done to stop the abuse. This woman eventually received knowledge and became a premie. I am not sure if she talked about the abuse or not. She ended up getting married to someone who was not a premie, and, with her husband's help, she stopped following Maharaji and started going to counseling, where she received help for the trauma resulting from the abuse (please note that the abuse incidents were NOT 'recovered memories'. She remembered what had happened but just didn't know how to deal with it.) She has tried to talk to some of the other children (now grown), who were sexually abused at the same time she was, but they are still premies and 'don't want to talk about it.' After hearing from this woman and reading G's mom and AJW's journeys entries, I believe that Maharaji knew that Jagdeo was molesting children, and did not take any steps to make sure that Jagdeo was not alone with children. Both JW, who was a community coordinator, and Zac have said that Jagdeo was allowed to move freely in their communities - no one was warned about the abuse. I have said this before, but all Maharaji would have had to do was pick up the phone and call the community coordinators and let them know that they had to keep an eye on Jagdeo. However, regardless of whether one believes that Maharaji knew about the sexual abuse or not, I urge anyone who is reading this and whose child had ever possibly been alone with Jagdeo (without adults around) to talk to your child. There may be a lot of grown children out there who were abused - G's mom's friend, the kids who lived in the premie house with the woman I wrote about, and so forth. These kids need help coming to terms with this, especially since it occurred in a supposedly 'spiritual' context, and especially if they are premies themselves. My sister and I have a friend who was repeatedly sexually abused by her father when she was very young. She didn't tell anyone about it for years and finally got up enough nerve to talk to her priest. Her priest told her that she had 'tempted' her father, and that SHE had sinned! It took her many more years before she was able to talk to anyone else about this. She will never be really OK, but she's functioning now. I am afraid that there are premie kids out there in this same situation - feeling somehow that sexual abuse was THEIR fault. This really bothers me. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 16:35:04 (EDT)
From: Blue Bird Email: None To: Katie Subject: Jagdeo's Trail Message: I would imagine that some of the individuals listed below would be able to provide a listing of Jagdeo's travels, as they were involved with the travel agency. Does anyone know? GRAY, MARTIN 1500 BAY RD. #424 MIAMI BEACH, VUKO, JAMES 1500 BAY RD #1507 MIAMI BEACH, FL ANCTIL, JOE 1500 BAY RD. #214 MIAMI BEACH, FL LASHER, R LEMUEL 1500 BAY RD #1524 MIAMI BEACH FL, DYESS, BOOTH 1500 BAY RD #424 MIAMI BEACH FL, PROUTY, RANDALL H. 2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., #220 WEST PALM BEACH, FL 33409 MURPHY, CHRISTINA 1900 DECKER SCHOOL LANE MALIBU, CA 90265 EMERSON, JIM 411 VALLEY LAKE DRIVE ATLANTA, GA 30087 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 03:45:31 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: What about many countries Message: like France where Jagdeo used to spend a lot of time in the 70s? I think I should send a copy of that info to the local EV representatives here and see what their answer will be. Do they really care for the children (now adult) that might have been molested at that time? Do they intend to take steps to pass this information among the premies to help those needing help? Do they intend to have a responsible attitude towards crime commited in the premies's group? I wonder..... Can't we try to have a document together here, or some sort of letter to send to local responsibles? I'd like to be a part of this. In case EV doesn't answer to this, shouldn't we take steps to circulate this info among the premies and various communities? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 09:35:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Shouldn't we take some steps? Message: WE are aware of what happened, and that EV & M very likely never did anything about it! Shouldn't we do it ourselves and inform these EV responsible & managers that they are now responsible for this? Why not mail them all an information document about this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 13:44:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: But is he still even around? Message: JM, Is there still a Jagdeo out there to worry about? If so, yeah, I agree. We should put together a very concise info packet about him -- including the fact that Maharaji's known for years -- and circulate it. I think that's a great idea. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 14:02:57 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Jim Subject: To Marolyn Rawat Message: We don't know, yet, whether or not Jagdeo is still around. Certainly Maharaji would know and personally I think Marolyn should answer to a bit of accountability here also (her midwife was told). There is no doubt in my mind that Maharaji knew as well as Marolyn. I doubt any PAMS will come forward but hope and pray they will. So, I address this post to Marolyn Rawat: Please show us that you have a heart Marolyn and let us know Jagdeo's present status. I truly hope you have the courage to risk your material wealth to help those who have suffered. Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 23:36:55 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Mary M Subject: To Marolyn Rawat Message: Hi Mary, If you send a letter to Marolyn @ her address it probably would get to her unlike letters addressed to Mr. Rawat which are probably checked out first. By the way I'm sending on to you the LOTU video ASAP Bye for now, Good Luck, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 09:48:09 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: mem_mcgraw@msn.com To: Liz Subject: Marolyn Rawat Message: Hi Liz, I don't have her e-mail address. Do you really believe she would give up the lifestyle of the 'Rich and Famous' to spare young girls the debasement of Jagdeo, Raphael and others? Luv, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 20:49:50 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Who is Raphael? Message: Did I miss something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 21:38:47 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: JW Subject: Who is Raphael? Message: Hey JW, Nope. Raphael (last name unknown) is a known pedophile amongst some individuals. All I know is he's approximately 5'6'-5'7', dark skin (Caribbean), dark wavy hair, and used to wear a big moustache. Last known whereabouts - Miami in the early eighties. Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 21:53:15 (EDT)
From: songbird Email: None To: Everyone Subject: just asking Message: I'm wondering what people expected from receiving the knowledge...what did you think the knowledge was? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:16:11 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: How could we know? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:22:43 (EDT)
From: songbird Email: None To: qp Subject: just asking Message: You had no hopes or thoughts of what you expected from knowledge? you just didn't know? you had no thoughts on what it was that you would receive in a knowledge session? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 00:53:19 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: I thought I'd find myself - & you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:21:07 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: Songbird, I thought that knowledge was: 1) a magic doorway through which I could contact my inner, 'real self'. 2) secret techniques to imbue me with the deepest wisdom and peace imaginable. No, better. 3) the special formula for controlling my mind which, I believed, was out of control. 4) something akin to an 'internal lsd'. And you? What did you think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:26:02 (EDT)
From: songbird Email: None To: Jim Subject: just asking Message: I was looking for what Jesus gave to his disciples... a way to know myself and to be a better person by being able to see the truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:28:52 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: I was looking for what Jesus gave to his disciples... a way to know myself and to be a better person by being able to see the truth. And who told you Jesus gave such a thing to his disciples? Hmmm, let me guess..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:35:03 (EDT)
From: songbird Email: None To: Jim Subject: just asking Message: Well I went into it full of christian beliefs, and I still believe it is a much better thing to express love and compassion than hate. I don't know very much but that is one thing I do believe, when you choose to be loving you add to the creation of a loving world.I think it is so simple..it's a matter of your free will to choose. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:46:12 (EDT)
From: songbird Email: None To: Jim Subject: just asking Message: actually you knew better than I what knowledge was...that is exactly what it is..a magic doorway to your inner self....but that's just where the work begins...there's a lot of cleaning up to do in there... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:50:26 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: Songbird, I no longer believe any of these descriptions of knowledge than I believe in Santa Claus. Or Jesus for that matter. To be clear, I believe that there is an absolutely equal chance that Jesus will hear your prayers as will Santa. Nil in either case. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:21:04 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: I thought I was going to see a light brighter than a 1000 suns (see Bhagavad Gita) be conscious of the Holy Word of God (see John.1.1) hear divine inner music (see Wish You Were Here-Pink Floyd) and taste divine nectar (see Mars Bars with splash of holy water from Lourdes). I also expected, through my divine experience, to recognise Maharaji as the living avatar of the age, Perfect Master, etc. Anth Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:28:17 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: AJW Subject: It's the drip-drip man! Message: Nice to see you again Anth! I bet you must have given really good satsang! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 13:59:02 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Liz Subject: It's the drip-drip man! Message: Aaaaagh. Don't remind me. I cringe at some the stuff thats puked forth. But to be honest Liz, I really feel, more and more, it's like, each day, you know, more and more... Wow it's still there after all these years. Must go now, (now where did I put that beragon?) Anth Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:11:14 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: AJW Subject: It's the drip-drip man! Message: You are a laugh Anth! I even got got a tingle up the back of my spine as well as a laugh - (must have been my Kundalini). It reminded me of when I was at the Res and someone made a So-Hum joke (because she was allowed now they don't use that anymore) I cracked up and it was mainly these crack-ups that kept me going in the crack-pot world of premies! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 21:35:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: I expected and thought that Knowledge would be the ANSWER! Good question, tweety. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 21:53:38 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: songbird Subject: just asking Message: I thought the knowledge was beyond thought. I thought I was going to be to Maharaji like the 12 apostles were to Jesus. I kept waiting for some special instruction, but all I got was SS&M and Darshan and 'if it feels good, it's Maharaji...if it feels bad, it's your mind.' Fortunately I got out after a year or 2. But I believe I am still dealing with some of the negative effects of the programming. For example, the whole thing of not listening to your mind, but just going with what it feels like...this is a very detrimental way to deal with inner conflict. Sometimes, the RIGHT thing to do is what I'm thinking, NOT what I'm feeling. Pretty basic, really. It's called having a conscience, whether it is a personal conscience or a social conscience (or both). I think following Maharaji and his teachings has had a lasting effect on me in the sense that, at certain times in my life, I have gone the way of feelings instead of listening to my thoughts on the subject. I just need to grow up and get a grip. I'm not going to let this fucking cult head trip screw up my life any more. I'm glad this website is here to help me deal with these issues. When I left Maharaji, I was on my own, and just glad to be safe at home again...in school again...and so much of the stuff just got shoved down and not dealt with. Now, 20 years later, I'm still wanting to JUST BREATHE when things get tight. It's really a stupid way to deal with things. Just breathe? Give me a break! Love, Victoria P.S. thanks for asking, songbird Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 17:41:56 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Key To The Cult Message: As many ex-premies have noted, you have to believe in knowledge for it to 'work.' In other words, you have to be indoctrinated in some kind of an aspirant process prior to even getting knowledge for there to be any kind of experience of 'life' or 'joy' or whatever the supposed positive effects are. The following statement from the former Lord of the Universe himself, written in bold on the Elan Vital site kind of sums it up. If you want to know more, come and listen...if you want it, then listen. You'll have questions. Get those questions answered.You'll have doubts. Get rid of those doubts. When you are satisfied and you feel that, yes this is what you want, then you will receive this knowledge.'(Maharaji 1996) You have to get rid of all 'doubts' BEFORE you receive knowledge. This is, of course, contradictory to what Maharaji has said about not believing in something (i.e. be doubtful and skeptical) until you EXPERIENCE it, but this is just another example of the way he speaks out of both sides of his mouth and a reflection of what really is going on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 18:31:48 (EDT)
From: QP Email: None To: JW Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Seems to me a 2 edged sword. Preparation for the experience itself is a plus, but this also opens one to manipulation. If one doesn't want to go the slaughter, one shouldn't be a lamb. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:15:43 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: QP Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Preparation for the experience itself is a plus, Why does one need 'preparation' if the 'experience' is nothing more than your true 'self' and the whole point is to 'enjoy life.' Why does one need to be indoctrinated to 'enjoy life?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:22:50 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JW Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Don't want to speak for you , QP, but I think you're still operating under the illusion that a guru is going to show you God. For what it's worth, M is a BUSINESSMAN who wants your money. You can learn the techniques on a website. Why do you think we are all here kvetching and bitching about him--the guy's a FRAUD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 20:12:22 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: Helen Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Some of my best friends are frauds, Helen. Is this a shock on planet Earth? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 20:21:11 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: qp Subject: Frauds Message: So what are you saying here? That your friends are frauds in the sense that they are not 100% authentic all the time? Or that they are out scamming people? The former, yeah is that's your definition then we're all guilty, the latter, well, you need to get some new friends. And certainly I'm sure none of your fraud friends are as big a fraud as Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:05:00 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: qp Subject: Stupid non-answer Message: Some of my best friends are frauds, Helen. Is this a shock on planet Earth? I know you're enjoying trying to be clever and everything, Qp, but that's just being dumb. Adn evasive. Care to try again? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 00:06:10 (EDT)
From: henry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stupid non-answer Message: at least he fixed that comma thing Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 01:50:40 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stupid non-answer Message: Look. The point is you conned yourselves, that makes you a stupid psuedo-seeker. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:51:07 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: JW Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Really? You don't think we're indoctrinated on this planet NOT to enjoy life? Please. But I do take your point. That's why I don't think it's good to go off the deep end on gratitude. Where do we assign this gratitude? It DOES matter. 'Just feel it' is fine, if there's noone waiting to cash in & pervert it. This is probably why we avoid it in the 1st place. It's very easy to be vulnerable in a state of gratitude & suspend all judgement, a trip with distinct pro's & con's. I chose to take it seriously because I wanted assistance taking joy seriously. So I rode the energy, but I'm glad I waited for the ride, based on things you all have said. And if I come across as smug, well, I did pay my disappoint ment dues & blues. Big time. But not with this one. Anyway, 'blessings to everyone', etc. etc.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 02:40:41 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: qp Subject: Key To The Cult Message: You don't think we're indoctrinated on this planet NOT to enjoy life? No, actually, I don't. How one enjoys life is a very individual thing and so Mahararji's one-size-fits-all bullshit is especially suspect. That's why I don't think it's good to go off the deep end on gratitude. Brilliant qp, so glad you figured that out. Did you do that before Maharaji stopped calling it devotion and surrender? This is probably why we avoid it in the 1st place. You sound smug because of your pronouncements about what 'we' do. You should speak for yourself, because you don't know shit about anybody else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:56:17 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: QP Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Thank you Q-Assie Premie for your marvellous bit of insight as to what the key to the cult really is. Seems to me a 2 edged sword. Preparation for the experience itself is a plus, but this also opens one to manipulation. Exactly genious, and thats precisely the problem. Subjecting yourself to manipulation by the kind of perverts who you're apt to run into in this cult.....perverts who are personally supported in their criminal acts of perversion by the one who is held up as the elixir,when in fact he is the poison...I'm talking about your beloved little cult leader Maharaji of course. The perverts are violent criminals such as Fakiranand, sexual criminals like Jagdeo, and corporate criminals like Amtext and its president Charles R Nathan, not to mention a fair sprinkling of psychotics such as the David Smiths and Anne Johnstons of the world. BTW, did you ever think of living a self directed life as opposed to a manipulatesd one? Just curious. . If one doesn't want to go the slaughter, one shouldn't be a lamb Oh and how can we ever thank you for this little gem?! Yes those hundreds of westerners in m's cult who committed suicide...they definitely were MAHARAJI'S SACRIFICIAL LAMBS. Thanks for reminding us. Personally, I never want to forget them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 21:52:14 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: Nim -or is that NIMH Subject: Key To The Cult Message: Dear Creep: I quote: Exactly genious{sic}, and thats precisely the problem. Subjecting yourself to manipulation by the kind of perverts who you're apt to run into in this cult.....perverts who are personally supported in their criminal acts of perversion by the one who is held up as the elixir,when in fact he is the poison...I'm talking about your beloved little cult leader Maharaji of course. I don't know you, thank God. If this is how EV affected you, I pity you. Chances are, however, you have some shred of responsibility for your own condition. Hard to believe, huh? In any event, if you think it is cool to take out your invective on whatever stranger suits your fancy, the kind of perverts you refer to have nothing on you. I hope you stew in your own fetid juices until some reasonable reaction of revulsion surfaces. Fait accompli. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 00:45:04 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: qp Subject: Key To The Putz Message: In any event, if you think it is cool to take out your invective on whatever stranger suits your fancy, the kind of perverts you refer to have nothing on you I've never sexually assaulted anyone. I've never beaten anyone. And I've never tried to pull off the kind of fraud and thievery that Chuck Nathan is responsible for. Hey qp, you don't have to deal with the issues, if you don't want to. Its pretty obvious to all that your a pathetic putz. We're really not expecting much from you. And as far as going after YOU qp...thats my privelege. You're showing contempt for this forum. You're fair game. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 01:57:06 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: NimPutz Subject: Key To The Putz Message: Gonna hold me in contempt of Forum? Really. Chuck Nathan? If you want to be informative instead of depreciative, knock yourself out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 12:03:47 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: qp Subject: End of the Putz....and... Message: ...you didn't even say good bye, qp. But then again, please don't bother:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:32:07 (EDT)
From: victoria Email: None To: qp Subject: your fancy Message: if you think it is cool to take out your invective on whatever stranger suits your fancy QP, this is exactly what YOU are doing. I can hardly believe anyone could be so rude to Helen, as you were in threads above. Sincerely, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 20:21:34 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: JW Subject: Key To The Cult Message: The deceitful way you spin his words is disgusting. Here's something you should try doing... try to check yourself when you may be letting your bias talk, and then let some objectivity come into what your are about to say. Believe me, it works wonders for establishing credibilty if you do. M is saying come and have your questions answered so when you receive the techniques you understand what you are receiving. In the process of doing this, if your doubts cannot be addressed to your satisfaction, then don't pursue it. How honest were you JW before receiving K when asked if you were free from doubts? Judging by the garbage you write, my guess is not very. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 21:51:48 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: the premies Subject: Nothing is as it appears Message: The bottom line of what is being communicated here is that the ex's who are posting here have first hand knowledge of: facts which may (I said MAY, for any premie lawyers out there) constitute financial fraud facts which MAY prove that Jagdeo committed sexual assaults facts which MAY prove that Fakiranand was spirited out of the US after he attempted to murder Pat Halley in Detroit by beating him in the head with a hammer Many of the ex's have first hand experience with M and observed him being mean, abusive and vicious to premies. This is not the way he is publicly portrayed. M's behavior was so at odds with peace within that these people had to abandon him and the life they had built, for over 20 years, in some cases. This isn't about interpreting satsang, it's about direct experience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:10:47 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Nil Subject: Thanks for the laugh, Nil Message: M is saying come and have your questions answered so when you receive the techniques you understand what you are receiving. In the process of doing this, if your doubts cannot be addressed to your satisfaction, then don't pursue it. Where, Nil, besides your imagination, does he say any of the above? I see Maharaji saying 'get rid of the doubts'. I mean, he said it and I read it. That's pretty simple. But where, Nil, does he say the second part? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:25:46 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: nil & qp Subject: facts Message: I also suggest you read the Journeys entry of G's mom for hard facts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 02:49:13 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Nil Subject: Key To The Cult Message: M is saying come and have your questions answered so when you receive the techniques you understand what you are receiving. Yes, we know about your unbiased interpretations Nil, we remember the unique and extremely strained way you interpreted the commandment: NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. You were apparently the only premie in the world who interpreted it the way you did, and the ex-premies on this forum laughed at it. What M's quote actually says is you have to get rid of your doubts before you receive knowledge, but, see, if you are really thinking, that is IMPOSSIBLE, without indoctrination and programming, if you haven't RECEIVED it yet. It is impossible to not have doubts about something you haven't experienced yet unless you get into the realm of blind faith, belief, indoctrination and supression of doubts. That is a cult. That was my point, and I didn't twist anything. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:39:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Springtime for Hitler Message: I don't know if any of you've checked this morning's honeypots but a few new Maharaji sites have popped up like mushrooms. ELK referred me to new Elan Vital and Visions International sites. As usual they're a little content heavy but then what would you expect? They do have to explain the miracle of life, Knowledge and the Master, after all. Then you've got your pie charts. They really help too. I sent EV the following note since they're offering to help and everything: 'Dear Sir or Madam, Congratulations on your new web sites. I haven't had a chance to review them thoroughly yet but what I've seen looks professional and impressive. 'May a thousand flowers bloom' comes to mind. Good for you! I was wondering if you could assist me with some further information regarding Maharaji and, in particular, his finances. Most specifically, could you please advise me what, if any, financial benefit Maharaji derives from a company called Amtext? If he does profit from Amtext somehow would you kindly advise me how so that I can then relay this information to certain 'interested parties'. This is truly the 'information age' as so many have said. Thanks to the internet, information flows now like never before and for this I'm sure we're all extremely grateful. You certainly should be. Now at last the truth about Maharaji can emerge in detail. Sincerely, Jim Heller' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:45:52 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Jim Subject: Springtime for Hitler Message: Any ideas why ELK took away Rememberances? included stories from Charnanand etc? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:49:56 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Liz Subject: Springtime for Hitler Message: Good question. I didn't notice 'til you mentioned it. My guess is that the past is the past. (By the way, the future is the future, love is love, mind is mind, Maharaji is Maharaji and ... shall I continue? I'm thinking of compiling a whole book made up of these equivalency tables for fast, easy reference. But, then again, a book is just a book.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 16:05:30 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Equivalency Tables Message: Yes, Jim, life is life and joy is joy and knowledge is and is not whatever. I found this sentence on the Elan Vital site and I think it's right up there at the top in the tautological game Maharaji plays. To fully appreciate all that Knowledge offers, it is important to have a clear understanding of Knowledge and appreciation for life. Isn't this statement wonderful, clear and intelligent? I am overwhelmed by the significance and the information it conveys. Yes sir, couldn't be clearer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 16:08:35 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Equivalency Tables Message: Joe, How did I ever get into this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 14:50:54 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Jim Subject: Springtime for Hitler Message: Maharaji is Maharaji ??? Oh shit, and all this time i thought guru was greater than god...now he is just himself??? You are so funny, I love your posts. Thanks for keeping me up to date on the premie sites, I can't stomach them myself any more...glad to have a reviewer to do it for me. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:48:14 (EDT)
From: Suzanne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hello Again Message: Hi everyone: I posted a while back thanking everyone involved in this website for helping to get my eyes opened about Maharaji and his organization. So many of the things that were written I had felt myself and somehow felt I was the only one. The thing that made me doubt Maharaji most, quite frankly, is the way the premies I know live their lives. I just found that if you measured what Maharaji is supposedly about by the behavior, 'happiness,' and dishonesty of the people who have received knowledge and who follow him, it's a pretty sorry sight. Premies are some of the most back-stabbing, vindictive, power-hungry, miserable people you will ever find. And all the while they will parrot how enjoyable their lives are. Maybe they do enjoy their lives, I can't say, but I don't want any part of their uncarring deceptions, which I think they get tacit approval for by seeing the morally backrupt way Maharaji lives his own life. I said earlier that I was a little nervous because my husband was also a premie. I had told him some of the things I was feeling, but I didn't quite know how to explain it. So, I told him about this website and he spent what must have been 3 full days reading it. He wouldn't even give me the chance to come back here myself. Anyway, yesterday he told me he was feeling much the way I was and it was time to move on from premiedom. So, our new lives begin. I just feel a load lifted off my shoulders and like I can breathe fresh air again. Thanks again everyone. We appreciate it. Suzanne -- After 20 years, finally free Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 13:17:10 (EDT)
From: sp Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Thanks! What you just described is the criteria I used after I finally had courage to admit to myself that K wasn't doing me one damn bit of good. Currently, I'm in a very long anger stage. Withdrawal isn't an overnight thing at least for me, in that I am also a 20 yr.+ cult member(was-I should say) Until I discovered this forum, I was completely alone in my escape. Having your husband will no doubt also be a big help to you. Thanks again-sp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 13:33:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Congratulations to you and your husband on the journey towards freedom! Please feel free to e-mail me if you need moral support while dealing with all the stuff that will come up. Remember that this forum is here to help you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 13:49:26 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Congratulations to both of you! I'm very happy for your sake. This site has proved vary valuable for many people. I lived with a very devoted premie several years after I had left myself, and it was a very difficult time for me. It's really so much easier when you can join each other on your journey. So, all the best to both of you. Happy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 13:43:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Dear Suzanne, I am so pleased to see your seeing the forest for the trees didn't hurt your relationship with your husband. That is excellent that he will 'exit' the cult with you. Good luck to you both. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:53:43 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: katie@ex-premie.org To: Suzanne Subject: Thank YOU, Suzanne Message: Hi Suzanne - It's always great to hear how the website and forum have helped people like you and your husband. I'm glad both of you could 'deprogram' together, BTW. Anyway, Brian and I really appreciated your post - messages such as yours make all the work that goes into maintaining the website and forum worthwhile. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:07:39 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Hello again Suzanne, You sound really happy to get away. I have been undergoing the same process at roughly the same time and have come to basically the same conclusions. I can't believe premies (including me) could be so stupid as to parrot off being happy whilst being really unhappy. I was a basket-case in the end after 20+ years. I was beginning to think I was a manic-depressive but now I've got off the bus to nowhere I feel sane again. Thanks again Katie & all you other guys for hanging in this forum for the likes of us. I know there are some more unsavoury reasons why you might be tempted to quit if you know what I mean! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 18:36:17 (EDT)
From: QP Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Congratulations. Seriously. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:35:13 (EDT)
From: Nil Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Hello Again Message: Premies are some of the most back-stabbing, vindictive, power-hungry, miserable people you will ever find. And all the while they will parrot how enjoyable their lives are. Are we talking about the same group here? I've worked closely with premies at all levels for many years, and have never seen these traits you describe to be the norm. Look, premies are a volunteer group of people who try to work together to realize a common goal they feel passionately about. Interpersonal issues do happen in this pursuit on both sides of any disagreement. Are you saying you have been beyond reproach for the kinds of miscommunications that could engender the kind of perceptions you have of them? As for M giving tacit approval for inapproriateness... you don't know what you're talking about so why comment? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 19:50:39 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Congratulations!!!!!!!! Message: I'm very happy to hear that the forum is helping people- tempting to say saving souls but I think the hint is enough. Congratulations!!!!!!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 20:24:03 (EDT)
From: Nim Email: None To: Nil Subject: Fuck you again Nil Message: . Interpersonal issues do happen in this pursuit on both sides of any disagreement. Yes especially when you're dealing with creeps like Jagdeo, Fakiranand and corporate thieves like Chuck Nathan and Amtext,psychotics like David Smith. Yup, 'interpersonal issues' are bound to happen when you have the privilege of running into these guys. As for M giving tacit approval for inapproriateness... you don't know what you're talking about so why comment? What about Amtext Nil? We're still waiting for an answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 21:28:28 (EDT)
From: Old Timer Email: None To: Nil Subject: Buzz off birdbrain Message: 'As for M giving tacit approval for inapproriateness... you don't know what you're talking about so why comment?' Where the hell have YOU been? She knows exactly what she's talking about! Are you trying to say that premies don't mimic their monster's actions? Of course they do--always have--and if you've been in the cult you know it's true too. Sounds like you're the one who doesn't know what your talking about. If you want to bang a drum, go to the dammitI'menjoyingmylife.org sit and bang it there you loser. You aren't scoring any points here that's for sure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 02:01:10 (EDT)
From: Suzanne Email: None To: Nil Subject: Hello Again Message: Mr or Ms Nil: All I can say is we must have been hanging around different premies over the past 20 years. I might not have minded their thoughtless behavior if they had been honest about it. But instead they pretended they were holier than though, all the while they were stabbing you in the back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:05:46 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Wow Message: Suzanne! Your post gave me tingly goosebumps all over! Wow! Congratulations to you and your husband, you have taken a brave step in the right direction! Love!, Victoria! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:27:29 (EDT)
From: sp Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Bongo List Message: About 3 years ago, before I left the cult, I had access to this list. It is now called the 'Special Guest' list and contains names of those members of cult worthy of special attention. These offenders range from those who merely will jump up to a good seat in front-to those known to follow inner voices-to those perceived to be a threat to The Man with the Golden Plopper. Sure wish i had a copy of it now. It would be very interesting to distribute it to rank and file cult members at the next big hoe-down. Those cult members thought of to be athreat to plopper man would find out they had a very special 'secret escort' at all events. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:55:16 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: sp Subject: SP Approximately how many name Message: were on that list? 25? 50? 100? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 13:07:54 (EDT)
From: sp Email: None To: Zac Subject: SP Approximately how many name Message: many more than 100. It was many pages. I was looking at it on the sly(my natural curiosity got the best of me). It was divided into the 3 parts i described. I just had time to skim it looking for the names of people I knew or suspected of being qualified. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:04:17 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: sp Subject: Who's crazy now? Message: If there were 200 names on that list then potentially 4 percent of the people who attended a large M conference (assuming 5000 total attendence) were monitored by M. Do you know where your children are? I cannot imagine any event or gathering in the world were this occurs on this level. Can anyone else? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:19:59 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Zac Subject: Who's crazy now? Message: Maharaji has many Psychiatrists attending programmes to do his service, as I've mentioned before. He pretends never to equate the high percentage of nut-cases as having anything to do with him or practicing the big k. I know deep down he does but he's too greedy now to own up. He says these people come out of the wood-work and that they took too many drugs in the 70's but we know that the big k, brainwashing the guilt trips about not practicing, not doing enough service, not loving m, all these dilemmas are enough to drive even the most balanced people crazy! I'm glad I got out before I told anyone else about him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 18:42:45 (EDT)
From: qp Email: None To: Zac Subject: Who's crazy now? the planet Message: Dear Z, Please! Never underestimate the paranoia of the human being (especially when most of that paranoia is justified). EV is a toy cult. It's abuses pale in comparison to many others. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 22:44:39 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: qp Subject: I agree, qp. But so what? Message: EV is a toy cult. It's abuses pale in comparison to many others. In a lot of ways this is true. Sure we have our Jagdeo's but then the Hare Krishnas, God bless 'em, had their very own school run on nothing but abuse. And I mean the real serious shit, not just the marginal junk Jagdeo's guilty of. Rape. Oh, by the way, did you ever hear of Mahatma Trebinanand? Fat, lesser known asshole (he really was an asshole. The most dour person I've ever encountered. A real thick slab of ugly meat.) He raped a girl in the Regina, Saskatchewan premie house in '74. Drove her nuts. She carved an 'X' in her forehead. But, to be fair, this kind of stuff probably didn't happen all that much. AND, let's remember, we never did have our mass suicides or murders like the San Diego or Tokyo cults. No, in a lot of ways, you're absolutely right. Some cults are much worse. So? What's your point, qp? This was my cult. It really did suck me into a celibate, mode of trying to merge with some fantasy Maharaji in my head twenty four hours a day. It really did completely waste at least eight years of my life. No one that I know here ever said it was the worst cult we'd ever heard of. Just that this was the one we got caught by. If you think our grievances and questions, points and experiences aren't sexy enough, fine. Go to the courtroom down the hall. I hear they're trying a murder there. We're just prosecuting a little ol' fraud (with some minor sexual assault, etc.) Suit yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:43:12 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: sp Subject: This Is Nothing New Message: The 'Bongo List' at programs was also around many years ago. There is a large percentage of premies with psychiatric problems and 'security' has apparently gotten even more like the KGB in the way they deal with them, if they are actually trailing people at programs. Give me a break. But in my experience only a tiny number of these were really a problem. But then, since Maharaji has a pathological need for control and order, ANYONE who doesn't act like the premie clone is considered a problem. In the early late 70s and early 80s when Maharaji was in Miami quite a lot and so many programs were held there. As a result all kinds of premies with various mental problems began showing up in Miami and just staying there. Many lived on the streets, others just crashed where they could. We had a small restaurant in the basement of the satsang hall called 'Grace's Place' and I asked the premies who worked there to give food to some of them who obviously weren't even getting enough to eat. [I was actually told by an initiator, John Hampton, that I shouldn't be doing this. That 'charity' was just some kind of mind, he said, and that since the profits from the restaurant went to Maharaji, giving away food cut into our 'true' purpose of life.] Anyhow, at programs there were always those bongo lists that security maintained. I remember one time I had the service of wearing a green carnation in my lapel and security would put me in front of someone they thought was a 'bongo' when they went through the darshan line. I could tell Maharaji knew what the green carnation meant, and often they would pull the person out of line at some strategic opening in the 'tunnel' and hustle them off to some room and interrogate them. I remember one festival I went through darshan about 5 times this way. Sometimes when I was community coordinator, security would contact me and ask me about some premie or other in the community to determine whether they should go on the bongo list or not. It was very weird. Those security guys could be somewhat, shall we say, humorless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:49:49 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: JW Subject: This Is Nothing New Message: That is such a sad story but just the kind that makes me run a thousand miles away from Mirageji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 18:11:27 (EDT)
From: Roger Dangerous Drek Email: None To: Liz Subject: They're watching me! Message: At one point I was being watched at programs. I don't know how dangerous they thought I was, but I was definitely being watched. I don't think I was followed. Guilty until proven innocent. No trial. No defense. Very annoying, very scary and very loving! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:27:40 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Roger Dangerous Drek Subject: I'm watching you! Message: ;) Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, Apr 20, 1999 at 15:23:53 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: JW Subject: This Is Nothing New Message: This is totally bizarre! I never heard of this before. Maharaji puts 'security' on these so-called bongo premies...but did he put any 'security' on Jagdeo to protect premie kids? Of course, that would be charity, I guess, and not really service to the master since the master doesn't really give a shit about any one but himself. Victoria P.S. I'm glad you fed the premies who had nothing to eat. Thankyou for living the ideal, despite your negative programming from people who call themselves 'mahatma.' Great soul? my ass. Our so-called master has no concept about true spiritual ideals, compassion, service. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 15:05:20 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: One of the problems with receiving K and following M from an early age (20 in my case) seems to be that it becomes impossible to separate out the natural lessons of growing up from revelations from practicing K. Consequently, what normal people view as maturing gets interpreted as revelations from the Lord, and further binds us to his cult. On of these lessons is not getting worked up when some does something annoying. Mature people will let a lot of stuff go, or just handle the situation firmly and calmly. In the cult belief system, this was called detachment, and was held up as an important goal. Other examples are appreciation of natural beauty and music which Maharaji seems to have hijacked and associated with K. Of course, the shallow belief system of the cult also prevents a lot of other lessons being learnt. Disentangling goes on. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 15:29:14 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: JHB Subject: Excellently put (NT) Message: NT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:43:21 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Jethro Subject: off topic Message: Hey Jethro! In a fit of over zealous security measures, I managed to lose both your and Hamzen's email addresses. can you send to: rryan@u.arizona.edu This is, hopefully a temporary address. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 15:58:55 (EDT)
From: Roger Sicko Drek Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's so sick Message: The subject of this thread, Growing up with Maharaji was disturbing to me just to read because it rang so true. What a stupid, stupid way to mature into an adult, hooked to a perpetual spoiled brat who hasn't a clue as to what growing up is. The damn thing is that we do get only one life to live and I realize that I wasted a significant portion of it trying to make sense of it via Maharaji. What a goddamn mistake! What a regretable thing to do! Lurkers and possible aspirants, please try to understand this before you get into this thing any deeper. Don't let Maharaji the Vampire suck you dry and waste your life. There is nothing there that you cannot get elsewhere. Life is the teacher and it will teach you in its own natural way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:30:37 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Roger Sicko Drek Subject: It's so sick Message: Yeah, just ask eb for the latest vampire concert info. Far more entertaining, and if you are into blood sports, well.... even more so. (NO I AM NOT - to any LURKERS) Roger, I am so sorry that happened to you. And to me. But it is over. We can at least be thankful for that. It is a healing process. I have had 3 surgeries (5 if you count childbirth which you should) and I understand the healing process. I just never thought the psychological ones would take this long. but they do. IMO they are harder to recover from than the physical ones. I am again hoping I wasn't too harsh in my email RE: spam msgs below we figured out who it was. well, we narrowed it down., New sendmail installed tomorrow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:39:39 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Yes. So true. And also, when things get the slightest bit difficult, in my case. Forget annoying. Just hard. I run, bail - look for the nearest exit. OR do my angry girl routine which I am not sure is better or worse. Neither most likely . Just another symptom. It is a very sad thing. and you are right on with that post. But I have been through far too much besides that little vermin thingy to let this kill me. I refuse. You too, OK? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:43:04 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Selene Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Selene, I think I'm getting through this fine, it's just that I wonder sometimes what normal growing lessons I've missed. I guess time will tell! All the best to you, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:46:26 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Don't know how long you have been 'out' but believe me time will tell! Not always nicely. Oh well, it beats the hell out of the blinders on head stuck in the sand routine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 21:25:49 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Selene Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: I've been out since January, but had little to do with M apart from donations, yearly attendance at programs, and belief, for years. It's still had a big grip on my thought processes though. I'm heading off to a Maharaji free country in a few weeks. Maybe I can ensure he never visits:-) John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 21:57:37 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: January - new beginnings - Aquarius - not that I believe in it anyway sign of revolution and change, innovation. I came here in January too, but it was 97. Yes you will be fine. I get that from your posts and am glad u are here. Love Selene (robyn can you even believe I signed a post like that?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 00:47:12 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: JHB Subject: Thought patterns Message: I have been out for the same amount of time and I'm amazed now I'm free how my thought patterns were incredibly screwed. Notice how this is in the past tense. I'm really freeing myself up from them and I wish you all the best in doing this too. What amazes me is that all the phenomena M associates with 'practicing Knowledge' I am feeling now I've stopped and definately wasn't feeling when I was 'practicing'. I'm not even going to figure it out just enjoy the freedom after 30 years now I'm hitting the great 50! I'm going to try not to waste any more time in regret, shame and blame. Enjoy your new virgin country! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 16:56:04 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: I know what you mean. It presupposed that we were the only ones having these experiences of happiness or growth, etc, when in fact the rest of humanity did very well without M. There's a real arrogance there in that premie world-view. One thing I've been reading about in psychology books is about the diminishment of ego that comes with middle age. This is not something that comes from trying to subjegate the ego, it comes from living life and gaining a little wisdom about one's place in the big scheme of things, and not being so self-centered. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 17:01:35 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: All right Helen. Guess that tells me I haven't hit middle age. I am still self centered. :) Still need your postal address for the Mickey the P tape. new temp email: rryan@u.arizona.edu Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 17:04:16 (EDT)
From: love and sweetness Email: None To: all Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: oh, I should have added. I am self centered at my advanced age due to the fact that I lost about 2 decades worth of emotional growth, being in a cult and believe I knew what was true and others didn't Selene --- and you thought benzo withdrawals were scary! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 17:11:47 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JHB Subject: You're absolutely right, JHB Message: Very perceptive, John. Do you know, in all of the regular dicussions I've seen going on over the last eighteen months, where the same ideas tend to get recycled by different posters at different times (not that this is a bad thing), I don't think anyone has made this observation before - at least that I can remember. Yet, now you mention it, it seems so obvious - the fact you are at an age where you are still growing and developing, but at the same time belonging to cult which talks about 'growing in Knowledge'. It's like you have no baseline, having never matured before, so the more you learn to appreciate life, or deal with the rough times in a stoic manner, or just mellow out, the more you are going to believe that Goofus is 'working in your life'. The funny thing is, the same process might apply in M's case. Probably even more so, since he didn't even get the regular child and teen development without the belief that Grace was making it all happen for him. He too had no baseline. Your idea might also be very relevant to the fact that only very few people over the age of, say, 40, ever became premies. I remember we used to look down on people from our parents' generation for being too set in their ways to 'understand' what knowledge could do for them. I think it more likely they had first-hand experience of life being tough, and that there are no 'one-size-fits-all' simple soultions to human happiness. In their own ways, simply through maturing, most older people probably knew exactly what they did and did not need in their lives to find their own kinds of personal satisfaction. God, we were smug bastards, weren't we? (Ok, some of us were..!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 21:34:21 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: nigel Subject: You're absolutely right, JHB Message: Nigel wrote:- 'God, we were smug bastards, weren't we? (Ok, some of us were..!)' I certainly was, and still am. This feeling that we were the chosen ones is very diffi-cult to get rid of. I still have it, even now I think 'Oh I've been through this cult thing and as well as having had some cosmic meditation experiences I've had the good sense to reject the fraudster.' Now who can save me? (Those of you who only see literal meanings, please don't worry about this question!:-)) John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 19:33:31 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Great topic, John! In Anonymous program meetings, I heard it said that users stopped maturing about the time they started drinking or using rather than dealing with their problems. Being raised Mormon, I started out with blinders. Everything was filtered through the Mormon Doctrine which is similar to what we had to do to follow Maharaji. In addition, my dad was a raging alcoholic, and I remember many, many scary nights trying to sleep through the violent fights my parents would have. All this before I turned six-years old. Talk about yer fucked-up baseline! Drugs and sex by 12-years old; Knowledge at 16. Maharaji was actually a step up for me--well, at least for about six months out of every year. (My Gemini schizophrenic husband would clean up for six months and then relapse for the other six, but not as well-defined as this. Could be 3 months on; 3 months off. He liked to keep me guessing). I still can't handle growing up. I dislike working around people because I find them petty and greedy. I used to look for 'God' in everyone. I believed that deep down, everyone was good and wanted what's best for everyone else. (I think I landed on the wrong planet). I'd like to hole up somewhere in Montana with a horse and a gun, but then there's the part of me that feels a responsibility to finish putting kids through college, pay my part of the mortgage, attempt to meet my obligations. I'm just glad that every once in awhile I can find a concert that's loud enough to drown out that part of me that feels like living is just not worth the effort it takes. Oops, maybe this should've been from Ophelia. I guess I need to run over to my gothic chat line now. Thank you all for being here and for helping me sort it out. eb Damn near poked her eyes out in search of God. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 20:12:04 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: eb Subject: Lost sight Message: eb: Your post touched a chord with me. there are a few of us posting who grew up in similar households, with similar religious doctrine, and who came to K at 16 or so. I read your earlier post about the concerts and found them to be quite funny. I say if music provides you with a haven, go for it. The Frank Zappa thread below says the same thing. Sorting out the brainwashing and trying to heal hurts from the past we were taught to neglect (it was mind after all) takes a lot of time, a fact I'm can see you're experiencing. Your concert post said to me though that you are really alive in the music and what surrounds it. Go with what works. As for your comment: 'Damn near poked her eyes out in search of God' ------ didn't your mother tell you that you'd poke your eyes out if you played with that sharp stick?????? I guess they were right after all! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 22:23:11 (EDT)
From: eb Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Lost sight Message: Thanks Marianne. Depending on my headspace, life appears to be a healing process or a grieving process. I have had outrageous spiritual(?) experiences and moments of intense clarity but they've become infrequent. Lately, the only time I've felt really happy is when I'm holding an infant. Something about that energy just connects me right up and makes me feel like it's all worthwhile. But there's a waiting list at the hospital of volunteers to hold babies and I refuse to have another one--they grow up way too fast and then you have to pay for college. I'm so jealous of Selene--I look forward to being a grandma! Anyway, thanks, Marianne. You're very understanding. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 09:17:09 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: eb Subject: eb and Selene (ot) Message: eb I just wanted to say I cherish you so much. God you just cut through all the bullshit & you don't even realize it. Your posts are so funny although I know you probably don't feel funny when you're writing some of the painful stuff. Remember that Steve Martin album 'Sometimes when I want to feeeeel funny, I put baloney in my shoes.' (My corny humor exactly) He and Dave Barry. Selene I just about peed my pants when you said 'don't mind me I'm the village idiot'. God, we really need to take this show on the road. Just think of the show we could write, with all our characters and life experiences. Kind of a women's journey through the new age parenting and mid life and dysfunctional families. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 11:46:18 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: eb and Selene (ot) Message: yup, we do need ot take it on the road. I don't want to quit writing. Just got burned out on CORN. I mean, if I want to write porn, I'll just create an ID on deja news and write to alt.sex.stories - they have some good ones! (or so I have heard) :):) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 00:37:01 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: JHB Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Isn't it nice to see the wood from the trees? Untangling might take a while but it's worth it. Keep up the good work. Every day it's getting better without the monkey on my back! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 12:53:09 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Liz Subject: Growing up with Maharaji Message: Liz that is so nice to read. Good for you. I feel that way too. Some days I think I am over it, then I see how I act/react to something stressful and I wonder. Like my email thing. It is really no big deal. 3 other machines got hit at our computer center. I don't know why I went off like that, but I do know it has something to do with not learning good coping skills. So we move on... jus tlike those wise and wonderful prmies tell us to. selene... still no email. It wants groff and I don't have groff. and, just found out I am not y2k compliat, tho my OS is only 2 years old. great. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 12:55:50 (EDT)
From: Sir David Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: The book of revelations Message: Anyone care to join our continuing discussion on the war in the Balkans? Myself, Larry and TJ are holding the fort but would appreciate anyone elses imput. Just point your browser to The crisis in Kosovo because there's some revelations about the conflict which we're uncovering which you may not know about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 13:35:37 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Sir David Subject: The book of revelations Message: Thanks SD I will check the link. I am off line email wise but have been very troubled, and following all of this, from the bitter beginnings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 14:25:08 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Projection of Power Message: This Kosovo/Yugi war is nothing more then the Crude Projection of Power and Might...It is the 20th century version of the iron age man....hitting his rival with a big wooden Stick on the head..cause his stick is bigger... US is trying to project world might and power...and tells the third and developing world...fuck u u arseeholes and black bums...we have the weapons and we blow you to pieces..then you come to us and ask us to rebuild your destroyed economy...and America Inc...makes fat profits from rebuilding Belgrave and Yugislavia...or Iraq for that matter Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 00:10:13 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Soul Rush book Message: Someone asked in a post for some quotes from Sophia Collier's book 'Soul Rush', which is an autobiography which discusses her involvement with DLM & GMJ. I must point out that this book was published in 1978. I am aware that Sophia had a successful business venture with Soho soda. I believe, but may be wrong, that she is an owner of Working Assets, a progressive investment firm. I do not know what her recent or current feelings are about GMJ or DLM. Without that information, I don't think it is fair to ascribe the quotes I include here to her today. I do think the quotes constitute anecdotal evidence about what was happening with M and the organization during the times she discusses. For that reason, her book is an important source of historical information. Here's a little bit from Chapter 9. She describes premies who came into a community food store where she worked and tried to get them to stock the magazine And It Is Divine. Page 108---- 'To change the world,' they said, 'you have to change the hearts of people in the world. As long as there is anger and hatred inside people, there will always be war and murder.... Knowledge [the name of their brand of meditation) is the only thing which is going to do it for people,' they would insist emphatically. Page 113, she describes comments made by the mahatma who gave her knowledge. 'Guru Maharaj Ji has the divine mission of taking this Knowledge to all people. By learning these techniques today, a bond of love and commitment is made between you and Maharaj Ji. By taking this Knowledge you become disciples, and you must follow his counsel to the letter if you want to progress and realize union with the God inside you in this lifetime.' Page 114, a woman asks the mahatma, 'Why this intense reverence of the guru? The mahatma answers: 'Oh sister, to me Guru Maharaj Ji is the divine father..... To me he is the Lord himself standing on earth.' Page 116, the mahatma warns that if the meditation techniques are taught to anyone else, the premies would not suffer in this life, but in the hereafter. They would undoubtedly be reincarnated as snakes. From the context of the chapter, Sophia received K in 1973, sometime after Rennie Davis. These passages are an accurate account of what was being said by and about GMJ during this period of time, by my recollection. Brings it all back in living color, doesn't it? I was truly a nitwit. I'll include some more over the next few days. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 02:58:28 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Soul Rush book Message: Here's information on books and the infamous LOTO video: Book: Sacred journeys : the conversion of young Americans to Divine Light Mission by James V. Downton, Jr Published New York : Columbia University Press, 1979 Book: Soul rush : the odyssey of a young woman of the '70s by Sophia Collier Published New York : Morrow, 1978 Video tape: The Lord of the Universe [videorecording] : Guru Maharaj Ji for TVTV, Hudson Marquez ... [et al.] ; production, Wendy Appel ... [et al.] Published [Chicago, IL] : Subtle Communications, c1991 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 01:03:36 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Roger E. Drek Subject: Sacred Journeys Message: Thanks for the infomation, Marriane And Roger. Is it possible to get hold of Sacred Journeys or see part of it on the forum? Thanks Marianne for the snippits of the Soul Rush book. Hope things are going well for you as they are for me now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 04:41:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Soul Rush book: more! Message: Hi Marianne, please don't hesitate to post as many excerpts as you can. I'll have them linked to my bibliograpy-page on my web-site The DLM-EV Papers Bibliography Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:27:07 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Excerpts from both books Message: Liz and Jean Michel: I love books. It so happens that I have a copy of Sacred Journeys too. I've been leafing through Soul rush some more and have found some other good stuff. I am about to go into a long evidentiary hearing in federal court for one of my death penalty cases, so you won't be seeing many posts from me in a few days. I won't forget though. I've got the books out with post it's all over them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:36:41 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Excerpts from both books Message: Thanks Marianne, I hope court is not too ardious and things turn out the way you want them too. My gut feeling about what I mentioned in my e-mail to you re family problems (don't want to get too specific here) was to 'let sleeping dogs lie. I know I was taking a risk here but it was a gut feeling and things have got a lot better, even back to what I call normal. We had a nice day out together yesterday. Thanks for your concern, Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 20:07:50 (EDT)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: premies, especially... Subject: Can I have my language back? Message: I dreamed about a rare old world where words mean merely what they mean of simple truths and common sense where things are no more than they seem where master means an able man who serves his time and learns a craft where knowledge you can find in books if not - the knowledge must be daft where yogis live in Jellystone and guru's just a T. Rex song where spirit is a fine old malt and wisdom learns ya right from wrong where lotus is a racing car (with wheels instead of lotus feet) where love is something you can share with people you might even meet where soccer is the divine game devotion to your chosen sons - or pick your sport, make sure the game has rules, is fair to everyone... enlightenment means rational if not, you'd best give up the search and liberation happens when you knock a tyrant off his perch... where meditation just reflects on life gone by and life to come no need to squeeze the eyeballs, pal nor shove a finger up yer bum... where festival means dance and song and programme something on TV surrender is what happens when a victim meets an enemy where charity begins at home (no EV videos on my street) where dedication brings success and inspiration tastes so sweet I dreamed about a rare old world where words mean merely what they mean of simple truths and common sense where things are no more than they seem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 20:15:57 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Larkin Subject: BRAVO! Hear, Hear... (nt) Message: asdasda Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 21:09:24 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Your poetry is the best, dear Message: Best one yet, Larkin. Lovely poem. You express some great values in that poem. If we had to have this goofy guru, I'm glad that good ideas like this could eventually come out of the experience. I'm not expressing my point well, but I'm sure you know what I mean...SO I'll close with this thought of the day--When I taught high school English I had students who had this to say about poetry: ' I mean why do we have to study poetry in high school anyway, I mean ohmigod, AS IF I am going to need it later when I get my MBA and BMW. Like I am so sure!!' (In all fairness I had many students who loved poetry and literature and wrote beautifully themselves) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 22:38:53 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Can I have my language back? Message: Great poem! We really know that the kings new clothes aren't there when premies go OOh-AAh over M's god-awful poetry. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 01:10:13 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Can I have my language back? Message: Yes. I have missed that part of forum. YOU!! and you lyrical carresses. Hi Larkin from Selene who is off line for now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 13:32:00 (EDT)
From: Shp Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Can I have my language back? Message: The mighty oak from acorn grows That is where it gets its birth But you're only seeing half the thing The other's hid beneath the earth The root extends beyond our sight There is no way to know it's near Except to dig and search for it You'd never know that it was here. The gardeners found this out way back When first they learned to plant and grow They realized there's more to learn They realized there's more to know... Than eyes and ears can testify The world is full of hidden things And searching for the answers can Evoke a scorner's nasty stings If plants and earth have secrets, then It would follow so do men That rare old world had secrets too Some treasure hunts for me and you If things were only what they seemed Then oak trees could be lifted From off the earth where they do stand And that would be quite gifted But even twisters in their fury Have to work real hard To uproot the old solid oak And drop it in your yard And because of the unseen root The thing that isn't shown The oak has great stability and life And so the truth is known It's said men are a bit like trees And here's the yeast to leaven We walk and have our freedom 'cause Our roots extend to Heaven That rare old world is with us still Just beneath the maya Just like 'ere it always was Since man discovered fire Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 13:52:03 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: That's terrible, Shp Message: Shp, That's a really bad poem in so many ways I can't even begin to tell you. So what are you doing back here, anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 10:42:06 (EDT)
From: ex-mug Email: None To: Shp Subject: Can I have my language back? Message: I see you've been learning how to write poetry from BM - it's in every way as poor :( Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 09:56:08 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A point of self respect Message: I finally viewed 'Life is Beautiful' last night. Wonderful movie. In one scene the main character Guido was receiving instructions on 'how to be a waiter' and the restuarant owner reminded him that God serves people but he is not their servant. He was teaching Guido to maintain his control and self respect while serving others. Is this point of self respect understood in M's world? Or is one continually asked to go way beyond the boundries? Or Does M's service refer to being a servant? Does service to M refer to being a slave? Or does M not give a shit about the premies as long as he gets what he wants? I was around 22 years, listened to alot of brainwashing in service meetings and I don't believe this point was ever discussed. I can't remember Mahrji making this point either great teacher that he is.-)Of course it's the first thing they taught Guido in the movie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 15:10:17 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Zac Subject: A point of self respect Message: This is a great question, Zac. I'll have to dig further into my past, but at this point, I cannot think of ONE thought, concept, guidance, practice, idea, program, department, project, story, annecdote...you name it... ...that Maharaji EVER even MILDLY attempted to support a premie's self-respect, self esteem, confidence, human rights, basic rights, compassionate desires, humanity to others, care of the living, family, relatives...etcetera. As for compassion, I was in PLA (Performer's of the Living Arts). We lived for a short while (1975?) in a dedicated PLA house, and entertained at old age homes, prisons, homeless shelters, etc. Our rag-tag, improvisational group always delivered somehow and there wasn't a dime made for our community coffers (or to M) directly from our PLA activities. This was OUR service and it soon was clear that M wanted this kind of 'waste' to stop, so it did. It not only didn't bring in money to him, it was giving us (the players) self-esteem. Pining for such to start up again is part of why I kept hanging around. I thought being a part of this screwball India trip had so many positive advantages, opportunities, etc. to make a difference in this world. What a life-sucking bastard M is. He cares about no one but him. Period. It is becoming clearer and clearer and clearer, every day (yes, even much more than I already knew), just how SICK this path that Maharaji wants his followers to continue for themselves, their new recruits and its effect on our whole world. For me, my valiant and sincere attempt (I went ALL the way) to destroy my ego (for God, for humanity, for love), obliterated my self confidence, unique identity, self-esteem, capabilities, deserving, etcetera. In the name of Maharaji, I made my insides my own ethnic cleansing, until I was at death's door (only breathing). It was LOGIC that saved my life, and not M, nor his twisted, selfish, genocide of a human's spirit. To Premies, Pwk's reading...if there is a real God, FOR GOD'S SAKE, run like hell away from this deadly virus, before you spend your whole life trying to find yourself again. It's a killer. Go ahead, someone find me one quote, where M even attempts to have you respect yourself. I challenge you. It's not there, because if it were, you'd wake up from this addictively-drugged-out nightmare (NOT a sweet dream) and leave. You'd find 'yourSELF' again and ironically would know 'the God in you' more than ever before. Whatever you think you've been getting from doing K, following M, 'that' was there before and I ASSURE you is MORE THERE after you leave this vampire than you can ever imagine. You can cut any path for yourself, anyway you want it and EXPERIENCE the freedom of thought, belief in yourself, that you were born with...that is your BIRTHRIGHT. Good luck to all of you. You can do it. FREEDOM Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 15:28:44 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: A most beautiful post(NT) Message: Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 09:43:12 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Miloochie Subject: exactly Message: Couldn't agree more. Very good post, Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 17:06:34 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Miloochie & Zac Subject: Destruction of self Message: Your comments are so insightful. Thank you. I think that one of the main reasons we were told not to 'be in our minds' was so that self respect didn't have a chance to flourish. We were taught to give all the respect to GMJ and we were undeserving. Once we started thinking that perhaps we were entitled to clothing, medical care, etc., those questions led to more insoluable ones. The ultimate form of self disrespect is not caring for yourself when your well being is in danger, and being unable to acknowledge that that is the situation in which you find yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 18:05:33 (EDT)
From: david m Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Destruction of self Message: Hey Guys/Gals...Marianne..you hit it right on the head,, total disrespect..I do believe that is where i was at in the Mission.. all we cared for was GMJ and that was the ultimate goal..It did not matter what stood in the way..Pleasing M was the object wheather it was selling all my things and Possessions..lots of lute i did not think twice..it was for him and his Mission and back then it was a mission...Now it seems so fake and so Material does not,the new Servents see it that way.. there really is no Mission to speak of besides the $$$$$$$ well I have said my piece for the day..Keep the faith Peace...david m Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 21:58:21 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: all Subject: Destruction of self Message: Yes, it's true, the trip is more about destruction of the self...how does a speck of dust have self-respect? The stories and allegories are all about EXTREME servitude and lack of self, all in the pursuit of serving the master. I remember when M said that service is not service unless you are serving Guru Maharaj Ji. In this point, it was clear we were not talking about the God that is in all of us and all around us...we were talking about Prem Pal Singh Rawat...guru maharaji. I am so glad we have escaped such a vile extreme in life. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 22:50:52 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Furthermore Message: The point of service is to experience something from within that is independent of whether one serves with dignity or whether one serves as a slave. Therefore the indignities suffered by many were and are needless. However if a company or organization is goal driven, then pushing people to their limits is beneficial for stockholders and the like. As people are used up, burnt out, and tired they are retired with the line. You need some time for yourself. Where do I sign up? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 21:44:54 (EDT)
From: Careless Castinyoga Email: ommm To: Everyone Subject: Serve-US email M&K ushers Message: Hello...this in, this week, I may go for the fun, but will stay in the back, earplugs in. Below is the actual letter. Untouched. Dear friends: On March 1st, 1999 Marcia Newman began serving in another area and I was asked to take over her role as the national ushering manager and Mary Kay Kerber is my assistant. Marcia's efforts are greatly appreciated and she contributed so much by continuing to develop the ushering service. For me it is an honor to be involved with ushering in whatever form or shape it may take. The ushering team which currently exists is a wonderful ensemble of individuals and the music we have the chance to play was written long, long ago. The 'conductor' loves to create new and heart warming renditions of this theme. As always, we may find that rhythm and melody within our hearts and express that feeling through our involvement. 1999 already has vibrancy humming in the air and it is hoped that soon we will hear how we can assist with the hosting of events with Maharaji. As soon as a schedule is confirmed you will be contacted and your participation will be most welcomed. The revision of ushering materials is complete and currently being edited and formatted for distribution. This will occur when training take place which hopefully will occur in the next few months. Training for local video event ushers, new ushers, supervisors and usher managers for national events will take place. I hope you know how valuable and important your contributions are to the ushering team. If you have experience or training in management, training, supervision or personnel skill development, please let me know. I look forward to working with each of you this year. Gratefully, Jim Barrass - Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 21:53:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Careless Castinyoga Subject: Can I show this to my friends? Message: Now THIS is funny! And to think I almost quit doing this ex thing (more than once). This is a printer for sure. The mahatmas used to say that when the Lord comes we all become his gopis, that we're all 'female' before his divine energy. That might be but what I'm seeing is that Maharaji's turning all this followers into little weenies. These ushers are the funniest thing I think I've heard of. My mind's reeling. I almost choked on my coke. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 22:43:31 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I show this to my friends? Message: The question is, will you still have any friends if you show them this? snicker snicker Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 23:29:33 (EDT)
From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Can I show this to my friends? Message: That IS funny Jim. I had the exact same thoughts. I had been thinking, forum is just not doing it for me lately, then I read this! It's priceless. The 'ushering team' must have been one of the ones to receive the benefit of that corporate new agey training M is doing these days. HA!!! It almost sounds like somehting I'd hear at work but it's even sillier. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 23:16:32 (EDT)
From: JP Email: None To: Careless Castinyoga Subject: Serve-US email M&K ushers Message: It,so hard for me to understand why people still follow the little munchkin. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 23:24:06 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Careless Castinyoga Subject: Jim Barrass - Self Knowledge Message: Hey there Castinyoga, I just can't figure out why the leader of Divine Ushers needed to be Directors of Corporations for the funnel funds! Go Figure. Helen, don't you think the name of this corporation deserves one of your great big BWAAAA HA-HA-HA? CORPORATE DETAIL RECORD SCREEN NUM: N16138 ST:FL INACTIVE/FL NON-PROF FLD: 07/30/1986 LAST: INVOLUNTARILY DISSOLVED FLD: 11/04/1988 FEI#: 59-2696741 NAME **** : ASSOCIATION FOR SELF-KNOWLEDGE, INC. ***** CHANGED: 08/11/87 PRINCIPAL: % ADDRESS PO BOX 442 GAINESVILLE, FL 32602-7442 NAME CHG: 08/11/87 RA NAME : PO BOX 442 RA ADDR : 322 SOUTHEAST 51ST STREET GAINESVILLE, FL 32602-0442 ANN REP (1987) I 08/11/87 CORP NAME: ASSOCIATION FOR SELF-KNOWLEDGE, INC. TITLE: PD TITLE: TD NAME: TITLE: SD NAME: TITLE: D NAME: BARRASS, JAMES 3915 NW 37 PL. GAINESVILLE, FL TITLE: D INVOLUNTARILY 11/04/1988 DISSOLVED Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 08:48:02 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mary M & Selene Subject: Vomitous writing Message: Now get it straight Mary, Mike is Bwa ha ha, I am just HA HA or HO HO. Mike's Bwa ha ha is when you're drinking coffee and you laugh and spit coffee all over your keyboard. HA HA is just two loud laughs. HO HO is a little deeper in the gut with a wry tone. Seriously this usher thing didn't make me laugh, what is this about the conductor and the music and stuff? These goofy metaphors for M just make me vomit--here's a sound effect for ya--bleh bleh.I swear there's a certain P.R. style that comes straight out of The Maudlin School of Horrible Premie Writing. Maybe they take a course. Anyway it is gag a maggot writing. They should have Selene do their public relations writing!! That would spice things up and people would show up in droves!! Mary M are you Irish? Me too, my little girl has an Irish name and her middle name is Mary. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 23:54:33 (EDT)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Careless Castinyoga Subject: M Barrass-ing Message: The revision of ushering materials is complete and currently being edited and formatted for distribution. This will occur when training take place which hopefully will occur in the next few months. Training for local video event ushers, new ushers, supervisors and usher managers for national events will take place. This will no-doubt be an intensive training program. Keep us posted, and you can email me for an address to send the revised ushering materials. Might be instructional to see what this training involves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 13:28:02 (EDT)
From: Uma the Usher Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Usher Sub-cult Message: The Usher Sub-Cult is quite strange! Maharaji is referred to in hushed respective tones as The Speaker. Each usher gets a very complete print out listing the name and seat of every person signed up for the event (might not include PAMs.) Retrieving the List of Names is a very important job to prevent someone from walking away with the ultimate mailing list. The ushers gather an hour or two before the doors open for a meeting. They regroup after the event for a debriefing to hear whether The Speaker was pleased or not. The entire show is monitored and maintained by computers. Now with the songs being completely lip synched Maharaji has the whole thing down to the atomic second as to when he will start speaking. Every other act of the show has a precise begin and end time. His act is TBD (To Be Decided) and a time duration of zero which is appropriate because of the timeless nature of what he has to say. What I particularily enjoy is the local ushering where ushers and other people doing service (eg. the census taker, the light keeper, projectionist, information table, donation table) typically outnumber people watching the video. But, of course, those doing service are also watching those exciting fresh videos so it's not like they are complete zombies deep in centered meditation as they assist Maharaji in his Holy Mission. I heard from a friend in Denver that there was a community somewhere where all the ushers bought matching blazers until someone caught on and told them to knock it off. Seems that innovation is not appreciated. I think it would be pretty cool if the ushers had black blazers with white trimmed edges like they had on Patrick McGoohan's TV show, The Prisoner. New No.2: ``Good day, Number Six.'' No.6: ``Number what?'' New No.2: ``Six. For official purposes. Everyone has a number. Yours is number 6.'' No.6: ``I am not a number, I am a person.'' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 13:53:04 (EDT)
From: sp Email: None To: Uma the Usher Subject: The Usher Sub-cult Message: Enjoyed your comments. Sad but true. In training, it was made very clear that protection of the Speaker was #1 function of usher. Another interesting thing going on was the unspoken truth that ushers were below security people in pecking order. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 16:22:55 (EDT)
From: dv Email: None To: sp Subject: The Usher Sub-cult Message: Thats right, you ushers were always inferior! I mean, WE are the ones who get the opportunity to throw ourselves in front of the bullets! Plus, at the last Miami program, we were told that we were no longer called security, but 'Special Ushers!' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 16:07:30 (EDT)
From: ALICE Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Contacting old friends Message: My name is Alice, and I was involved in Divine Light Mission from Christmas of l972 to the summer fully of l975. I was connected to the East Lyme Group, and I wanted to in some way to have some former friends contact me. There was only one Alice with the group here in East Lyme, CT. To make former friends aware of what's up, I have three children; Donny,l8; Diana,l6; and Micheal,l3. I recently became a grandmother and the baby;s name is Kelsey, one month and one week old. My children are very beautiful, and very creative and smart. My two boy's are involved in computers, and my daughter is involved in the arts. I'am working as Caretaker of a group home for the mentally ill. I became a Jesus People in July of l976, and I have a wonderful life in Christ ever since. If any of my old friends want to contact me, please do so. My parents live at the same old address, but their is phome number is unlisted. I miss some of my old friends, and I would like to get together to visit. My friends were very special and beautiful. Thank you for all those who did care and love me. Thanks, ALICE Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 13:26:12 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Question Message: I have a question for all you premies or ex-premies out there? Do you or did you ever believe that Maharaji was god? And if so what was the basis of that belief? As an aspirant, I heard that concept expressed a lot and I could not help but wonder what would lead a person to make such a statement. The idea formed in my mind that the revelation of Knowledge was such a powerful experience that it left now doubt in the person's mind that Maharaji was the supreme being. When I actually did receive Knowledge it was very anti-climatic. I experienced some sensations but nothing that knocked me over or revealed Maharaji's divinity. This threw me for a loop. I thought that something had gone terribly wrong in my Knowledge session and I did not receive the full dose. I chased after Knowledge reviews for some time after that, hoping to receive the full dose. Other people have said that in the Darshan line they looked into Maharaji's eyes and could tell right away that he was Lord of the Universe. I looked at Maharaji and saw Maharaji, but I could not tell if he was god or not. I don't ever remember hearing Maharaji ever saying that he was Lord of the Universe. Maybe he said it at one point. But I just don't ever recall him saying that. The Mahatmas/Inititators were saying it, as were certain 'clear' premies, to be sure. Does anyone have any experiences, proof or things that happened to them. Or was it all imitation and peer-group pressure? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 13:37:27 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Answer Message: D, Maharaji certainly did say he was God. That's for starters. Here are just a few examples: 'I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? **** When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there?' and: 'The Lord Himself reincarnates, reincarnates, reincarnates Himself for the very purpose of saving us. And we do not even realize who gave us the authority to refuse Him! Who are we anyway? From which field do we come that we can reject, that we can refuse, that we can deny our Lord? This is something that I cannot answer. And we do it every time!. Because we have got a stupid ego. ..... We just don't know that we are His puppets.' and: 'Why do we have this human body? To know this, we will have to take the shelter of Guru Maharja Ji. Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.' and: 'When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, .... But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. **** And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.' Lots more where these came from. Now, what was the question again? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 13:44:02 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks for that James-nt- Message: thanks for that Jimmie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 13:56:39 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: The Emperor is naked! Message: Hello, D. I just want to thank you for that post. It reinforced my feelings of let down when I found out about knowledge. I found out what knowledge was on this website after wondering about it for a long time. (Never went to a knowledge session.) It was anticlimatic for me, as well. I felt like the child who saw that the Emperor was naked in the story, 'The Emperor's New Clothes.' Some premies have tried to say that I didn't have a mind blowing experience of knowledge because I didn't go through the 'proper' channels to find out about it. As I see it, they still believe that the theives are spinning magic thread into the most beautiful clothes--but only SOME who are wise and worthy can see them. Personally I think that's bull. Especially after hearing stories like yours. Of course people have had experiences meditating--real physical images of light, real noise, etc. (could be psychosomatic, I don't know) For the record, I saw light when I was a child--long before I knew who Mahraji was. I have seen beautiful light and heard music when I meditate. It's nice but not mind blowing. I would argue that this is just the body doing it's thing, not really GOD, but that is my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 14:40:46 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: D thomas Subject: God or not? Message: D: I can't give you exact quotes such as Jim has, but I was involved beginning in 1972. The song we sang all the time then was 'The Lord of the universe has come to us this day.....' M passed himself off as the Supreme Being who was going to bring peace to the world ---- that is EVERYONE ---- in this lifetime. M was called variously: the incarnation of Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, etc. He was constantly called the Perfect Master, and we were all told there was only 1 Perfect Master. If a premie fell by the wayside, quit practicing knowledge, attending satsang, and going to events all over the world, they would lose Maharaj Ji's (as he was then Known) grace; in other words, go to hell or have loads of karma to recycle as one worked their way back up the ladder of enlightenment. It was the functional equivalent of hell and brimstone and it was very scary. Back then you could have gone to satsang (given by actual premies, then) at any ashram any night in the US and have heard M referred to as God. In fact, had someone suggested otherwise, they would not have been permitted to speak again for a loooooong time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 14:56:31 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Definitely God Message: Right Mary Ann. And I might add: Maharaji sat on thrones and wore crowns and had thousands of people line up to kiss his feet on numerous occasions, and still does so. We used to throw ourselves on the floor and prostrate (pranam) in front of him. We sang 'Lord of the Universe' to him, and we sang ARTI (you can get the words on JM's site, but among the words include things like 'your glory fills the world,' 'Creator, Preserver, Destroyer bow their heads and pray to you,' etc., all of which referred to M as divine). Maharaji lifted not one chubby finger to EVER dissuade us from believing that, correct any misperceptions and all the premies I knew believed he was the incarnation of god. Indeed, Maharaji rode his supposed divinity all the way to the bank. In addition, in 1975, Maharaji personally approved new words sung as an introduction of Arti, that said he was 'the superior power in person.' So his complicity was overt, not just passive. And, as Jim said, he also said on numerous occasions that he WAS god, or, actually, greater than god. Having gone through all this, one can get a tad angry and frustrated with current premie revisionists who claim none of this ever happened, and more that Maharaji has himself never addressed the issues, his part in the deception, the damage it caused people, let alone taken any responsbility whatsoever for deceiving people, especially thousands of gullible Western teenagers, such as we were, the way he did. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 16:39:30 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: JW Subject: Definitely God Message: OK, I concide that in the early days Maharaji promulgated the Guru as God concept. But my real question is why did premies believe that it was true? I, for one, really did not believe it in the literal sense, but I put my doubts on hold to see what would turn up. I don't know who I am talkng to. Were you premies in those days? What did you believe about Maharaji? and why? What was going on inside your heads? I feel there is hesitancy to answer this question. Perhaps you feel really embarrased. I am curious, because it was a big thing to me those days. I felt I was the only premie who did not have proof positive that Maharaji was Lord of the Universe. So why was I singled out? But now that we can talk more openly about it, what was the real reason? Was everyone consciously faking it? Was everyone extremely gullible, believing everything they were told? Did everyone really have an experience of some sort, back then that no longer exists? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:25:06 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Definitely God Message: I don't see what is so difficult to understand. In fact, you answer your own question, which is: But my real question is why did premies believe that it was true? when you say: OK, I concide that in the early days Maharaji promulgated the Guru as God concept. That's why. I was a premie from 1973-1983. The truth is that 99% of the premis had zero contact with Maharaji except at programs where he was presented as God. They didn't see him in other contexts so they had no means of disproving what they were taught that he was god. As I said, everything he did and said reinforced that he was god -- he never said one thing ti dissuade us from believing that. I'm not embarrassed that I believed that. I clearly said I believed he was the incarnation of god and that all the premies I knew believed the same. If you didn't, good for you. Yes, I was gullible, and very young at the time. And, also, it was something I wanted to believe, very badly. I wanted very much for it to be true. What I discovered, slowly, over time was that he wasn't god and that knowledge doesn't work. It's just a belief system, but when you are indoctrinated by a commandement that you aren't supposed to doubt, to have faith, to completely surrender, and you believe that, (all of which are typical elements of a cult) it can take a really long time to see the truth and some people never do, or at least haven't yet, as evidenced by the fact that there are some premies from the 70s who still premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:28:23 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: I believed Message: D: I was involved when this was the party line. I believed so deeply that M was God that I abandoned my mother at the time she probably needed me the most, as I have described in my Journey. I lived in the ashram from 73-74. After Millenium, M said ashram premies couldn't go home for Christmas (or even make a short visit) or they would be banished from the ashram. My father had committed suicide 9 months earlier. My mother was going to be all alone that Christmas because my 4 older brothers lived far away and they expected (rightly so) that I would be there for my mom. I was forbidden to visit my mom who lived 10 minutes from the ashram, even though I begged in ways that you cannot even imagine to be able to go home to console her. I did not go because I believed that M was God and I had to do what he said, through his cipher the general secretary. I thought that it was better to disappoint my mother rather than risk the wrath of God and banishment from the hallowed environs of the ashram. After all, my mother was only my earthly parent (another common comparison that was made in order to separate us from our families) and M was my spiritual parent. He knew best. I was made to feel that this difficult choice was a test by M to allow me to prove whether I was really surrendered to the will of God. Believe me, if I hadn't been convinced he was, I would have gone home to be with my mom. She died of cancer in 1979 10 days after she was diagnosed. It still hurts to tell this story today. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:39:25 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I believed Message: Yes, I remember reading your story in Journeys. It's too bad. You should have listened to your heart and gone to your mother. But you don't need me to tell you that now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 18:30:37 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: I believed Message: You are a moron! Read what you write before you post it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 19:15:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Zac Subject: I believed Message: Thanks, Zac. I hesitated in answering the question, and now I know I should have kept my thoughts to myself. Telling that story always really affects me, but I guess I will keep it to myself from now on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 19:28:46 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I believed Message: Thanks, Zac. I hesitated in answering the question, and now I know I should have kept my thoughts to myself. Telling that story always really affects me, but I guess I will keep it to myself from now on. Marianne, I am moved and motivated by your story, including hearing it stated again as you have above. I believe this person (D_Thomas) wants exactly that, for you and everyone else to stop talking. More clues: D_Thomas writes: But now that we can talk more openly about it, what was the real reason? Was everyone consciously faking it? Was everyone extremely gullible, believing everything they were told? Did everyone really have an experience of some sort, back then that no longer exists? And this D doesn't say one word of where, when, year, nothing. Marianne, do you smell a rat? If not so, he/she/it can come forward and answer such. Miloochie PS Whatever this person's intentions are, it is my hope that it doesn't censor you about expressing anything. Fuck 'em. ;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 19:13:19 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: I suspect Message: Ok, D_Thomas, What's the deal here, huh? 'Want to explain how you could have just typed those words in a moment of complete unconciousness (I'm just dying to hear your explanation) or spill the beans why you're here, who you normally post as, etc.? You 'remember' her Journey? You mean from all those ten days ago when it was posted? Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 19:29:46 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Stupid or Obnoxious? Message: Are you just stupid, or are you really trying to be obnoxious? Well, duh...Marianne makes it quite clear what she should have done and why she didn't. Do you have anything of any intelligence to say about it, or can we look forward to more of the same? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 04:28:56 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Definitely not God Message: I, for one, really did not believe it in the literal sense, but I put my doubts on hold to see what would turn up. I'd say that the whole trip was not meeting enough of your expectations. Maybe what was attracting you the most was the group's warmth, or some people you liked, some eastern/Hindu philosophy, but not enough to accept the whole brainwashing. Maybe also you were clear and lucky enough to be aware of a lot of the BS going on, and those sick EV/DLM's responsibles. That should be enough to warn many interested people I guess. Imagine you're interested by a job in some company, and you discover that most of the hierarchy consists of weird executives. What would you do? I guess you'd think twice before getting involved with those bongos. Premies like you, and many others most likely, keep their distances. They have 'doubts'.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 09:40:30 (EDT)
From: nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: D_Thomas Subject: Definitely God Message: OK, I concide that in the early days Maharaji promulgated the Guru as God concept. But my real question is why did premies believe that it was true? D, Are you saying we were stupid to believe the words of a liar? If so, what does that make you after 24 years? (apart, of course, from an insensitive, brain-dead cult member...) BTW: Your comments to Marianne are about the most contemptible I have ever seen posted here by a premie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 16:56:05 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Question Message: I did not believe Maharaji was God. I was looking to achieve God-realization and I understood that this meditation technique would get me there quickly. But I got swept up into the heavy devotional time of the late 70's and early 80's, sang arti and pranamed to M's picture etc. It's pretty insidious how I started doing stuff that was not authentic...it sneaks up on you. But deep inside, I intuitively knew the man was not God. I thought he maybe had the inside scoop on God, and was a realized soul of some kind. When I saw him on his little wagon at Kissimmee I did think he looked different from the average human, and at times he did seem to have a glow about him. But is that enough evidence to surrender the reins of your life to some character?-I don't think so. When I look at pictures of him now I think 'nice suits, nice Italian shirts', I feel nothing. I had a religious upbringing that was really positive so I knew God was something positive. When things got too weird, I left Maharaji's trip. I regret that I got swept along in all the hype. I admit the meditation is really truly very pleasant and calming to me. Is it GOD? Hell I don't know. If there is a God, I should hope that the way to a godly life doesn't just involve withdrawing from the world and dedicating oneself to a greedy contemptuous little sociopath. I mean I would like to believe that God asks more of us that that--how about kindness and decency, and helping others, for starters? I sure as hell know that Maharaji is interested in himself and money above all other things, and doesn't even try to conceal this from anyone--it's so obvious. And yet this fact is so hidden from premies, and it is verboten to say anything negative about M in premie circles--that's what makes it a cult. Premies are in such denial about this--I was too! It's very very damaging to a person's sense of values and moral development I think, to be so blind. The whole premie trip is one big agreed upon data vacuum, where M gets to be perfect. That's just nuts.....it's so anti-human and anti-growth I just can't believe it. There aren't words to describe how sick it is. I do think that giving someone ANYONE that much power over you is really really a losing proposition. It's a power play and he's got all the power. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 17:58:21 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: D Thomas Subject: The Lord Message: For me, I just wanted the techniques really and was suspicious that K may involve a cult, but was told I could leave any time if I wanted so I got K. My personal experience was, for me, mindblowing. I went into the K session knowing some premies called M the Lord and said to myself 'ya, right, whatever', but left the K session 'knowing' he was the Lord because of my experience. I felt immediately like I'd returned to a place I'd been looking for all my life, like a long lost home I knew had to be somewhere. It filled that spiritual void I'd been feeling for years when I searched through books, attended churches, etc. It was so strong, especially the experience of light. Not just what I saw, but what I felt. I thought that if my experience was so strong, M's must be 100 times as much and he must be so pure and so high. Didn't really understand nectar until 2 years later when a premie explained how he felt it. For me, Lord didn't mean God, it meant the most realized or conscious person on Earth who was here to help us. The Bodisattva (sp?) who reincarnates over and over as Master. Also, had a darshan dream just a few years ago that was so strong it really reinforced the mystical power of K for me. I used to dream about M all the time, but this was different, I really felt a strong experience with it. Other premies I've been close to have told me of their darshan dreams (each one had one). Anyone here ever have one? What do you think of it now? For me personally, K has been a strong experience and separating M from K was difficult. But--if he really is the most realized, conscious person on the planet, why the greed, deception, etc? And I hated that he said there is no karma and reincarnation, I still hold those beliefs and couldn't let them go. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 18:27:15 (EDT)
From: Zac Email: None To: Denise Subject: The Lord Message: I can relate to your post. My experience upon receiving knowledge was mindblowing. I had a hard time talking for a couple of days. For the first few years everytime I went to a program I experienced a place of peace that lasted for days and sometimes weeks. I wanted that to be constant in my life. Darshan dreams, wet dreams had 'em all! Unfortunately maharaji can fuck up a wet dream and a darshan dream. He's a greedy controlling motherfucker and he treats premies like shit! He can have the peace, I wont abide by his behavior. What is wonderful is the advance of technology and the internet. He thought he could get away with treating westerners the way his father treated the Indian lowlifes he conned. Ah, not so fast there big guru dude. He acts so fucking innocent. Just read his web page, Who me? His buckets full of holes. I love pointing it out. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 19:49:23 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Zac & Miloochie and D Subject: Dismissive response Message: Zac & Miloochie and Jim: Thank you all for grasping the emotional enormity of what I posted earlier. I am very grateful for it. Just thinking about how I behaved breaks my heart every time I ponder it. As for you D: So I should have just gone to my mother, huh? How easily you dismiss what actually occurred. I did not go to her because I believed I would be eternally punished by God if I did. That is exactly what you asked for in your original post. It is typical premie speak to tell me I should have done as my heart told me. At least you didn't say it was M's lila or my karma, as some premies did when this event happened. If you are able to dismiss this event so easily, I wonder what your motivation was to begin with in posting your query... By the way, ever had a parent hang him or herself in the basement of your home when you were 17? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 21:44:46 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dismissive response Message: Dear Marianne I also hope that you will not allow cruel comments of those sympathetic to Maharaji to stop you from sharing important things. Your story about your mom is an important story to show how family ties were discouraged & how the most important acts of family love were degraded. These things have haunted a lot of ex-premies, the last thing you need is to get dumped on by someone saying you should have followed your heart. I also want to say that I have a friend whose mom commited suicide when she was a teenager and it was completely devastating. Sounds like you have gone through a lot. Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 21:56:05 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Helen Subject: Dismissive response Message: Helen: Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I have been through alot but I have tried to transform it into something positive by defending people on death row ---- a vocation I never would have been permitted had I stayed in the ashram. D: I actually keep people from being executed for crimes they did not commit. Had I stayed in the ashram in the old days, I would not have been able to accomplish what I consider to be a sacred feat. What does M have to say about the death penalty, anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 11:25:49 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: katie@ex-premie.org To: Marianne Subject: Dismissive response Message: Dear Marianne - I want to echo Helen's response and ask that you not let responses such as D's prevent you from talking about your mother's death on the forum. So many people here have told similar stories about not feeling like they could leave the ashram (or other M-related commitments) to go home for illness, death or funerals of parents, siblings, and other family members. I think you can really get support for this issue here, and it sounds like it's something you still might want to talk about. Other people have told about never really experiencing the grief process when someone close to them died while they were premies - this can result in a delayed grief reaction when one becomes an ex. A lot of the other people here have also gone through the suicide of a parent, sibling, or close friend. If you don't feel comfortable discussing it here, then feel free to e-mail me or other people, but I hope you will feel OK about talking about it on the forum. I don't know if D's reaction to your story about your mother's death was deliberately insensitive or just inept. I do know that telling people that they 'should' have done something or other when they can't do anything about that now is non-productive to the extreme. There's a lot of things that I 'should' have done in my own life that I feel a tremendous amount of regret about now (and most of these things have nothing to do with being a premie). I am sure you know this, but the only way I have found to deal with these things that I 'should' have done, and did not do, is to accept that I did those things, take responsibility for them, learn from that, and move on. I know I'll always feel pain about these things, but I've learned to live with that. However, I know it's very hard to move on sometimes. Here's one example from my own family: my brother, who was never a premie, did not go to visit my father before he died because they were having a silly disagreement, and because he did not know that my father was near death. This happened ten years ago, and my brother is still stuggling with his feelings of guilt. I know that my father would have NOT wanted my brother to feel that much guilt and regret, but there is no way I can communicate this to my brother - I feel like he's going to spend his life atoning for not visiting my father before his death. I really related what you said about transforming what you have been through (and it does sound like you've been through a lot) into something positive by working to stop people from being unfairly executed. I can relate to that - I started posting on the forum and working on the site when I found out that a premie friend of mine had committed suicide. I felt it was something I could do to possibly help people like him. As it turns out, the ex-premie site and forum really DO help people, and that's why I put so much time into them. Anyway, Marianne, I also wanted to say that I am very sorry about your mother's death, and for what you had to go through. Your posts really touched me, and I hope, again, that you'll feel free to talk about it more on here. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 07:50:30 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dismissive response Message: Marianne: I am sorry that my response upset you. I was trying to be supportive, but I guess I said the wrong thing. I am a real klutz when it comes to interacting with people. The decision you were faced with at the time could not have been a very easy one. Looking back in hind-sight, which is always 20/20, it is easy to say that you should have gone to your mother. In hind-sight, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and not made that response. I am sorry if I upset you, but that was not my intention. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:22:36 (EDT)
From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dismissive response Message: Dear Marianne, Believe me I was not trying to be cruel. I am inept and I made the wrong choice of words. Please don't stop posting here. But while we are on the subject let me tell you a story of my own. In 1983 I was living with my parents again and going to the University. Some childhood friends of mine, two brothers lived down the road. They still lived with their parents. Did drugs. Still lived in the hippie era. Both brothers wee prone to psychotic episodes from time to time. They were seeing a psychiatist and taking medication. I liked them alot. Their house was sort of a party spot and friends came over there to party alot. They knew I had knowledge. I tried to be in Holy Name, even though I was usually stoned at the time. I tried to give satsang. This led to some rather cosmic raps about alternate states of awareness etc. The younger brother, Rich, was if anything a born-again Christian which he got off a Christian network on the ham radio. One night I bought a bottle of whiskey for a girl who was going to pay me back latter when she arrived. We were sitting in the other brothers room when Rich came in looking obviously agitated and uncomfortable. He wanted a few shots of whiskey. I said 'No this isn't my bottle.' He started offering me outrageous sums of money if I would just give him a shot. Everybody was asking him 'Rich what's wrong, why are you acting like this?' He wouldn't say, he just wanted a shot of whiskey. So finally I gave him a shot and then another, hoping he would open up a little and tell us what was wrong. Finally he blurted out 'All I can say is God really messed up when he made this world!'. I was taken aback by his anger directed towards God seeing as he was a born-again-Christian. We were trying to ask him why and he would occasionally let out with 'What are we doing here? Why did God make us? Why are we alive? All I know is that God really messed up when he made this world.' I thought to myself 'What a perfect lead in for satsang.' But I never really gave good satsang, so I said a silent prayer 'Maharaji, please let me give satsang to Rich'. Then I started saying 'All this is an illusion, none of this is real, even the problems that you think are so great are not real. What true reality is is ...... '. Then I froze. I was trying to express what true reality was but nothing came. I was looking for some satsang to just pop in from somewhere but none came. Someone else piped in about why they thought life was worth living. They everyone had their turn telling Rich why he should keep on living. I did Holy Name hoping to get some inspiration for what to say to Rich but none came. Much later, when we noticed that Rich wasn't in the room we went lokig for him. He was in the bathroom and we wondered whether we should break down the door or not. Then he came out. He had a bulge in his pants pocket which looked like his .22 pistol. 'Rich what were you doing in there?'. He just pushed himself pass us and we followed him into his room, pinned him to the bed and took his .22 away from him. Meanwhile his brother had hid all the guns in the house and called the Police. The Police came and put Rich in hand-cuffs and sat him down in a chair and talked with him for a very long time trying to calm him down. Finally he seemed reasonable. The Police took off the hand-cuffs after he promised not to try anything. He took his medication. His dad made an appointment for Rich with the Psychiatrist on Monday. We thought everything was alright then. I was not there the following day. Rich snuck off and got a bag of qualudes (for courage) and a .357 magnum from the local gun store. He then went to a loft above the garage and shot himself in the head. His brother finally found him and they called an ambulance. He wasn't dead yet. He was in a coma. His friends still came to the house but it wasn't exactly a party atmosphere any more. I felt like I had totally failed him. I was a premie. I should know what the meaning of life is. I should know 'why we are alive'. But when the chips were down, I could not say anything. I did not know what to say. I was a total fake, a total farce. After all these years with knowlege, I was still no closer to realizing the meaning of life than I had been. I went to the University on Monday, but I was just going through the motions. All I could think about was that Rich was lying someplace in a Hospital hangling on to life by the slenderest thread. In fact he could be dying right now. I had a job interview that day. I did not want to go, but the college placement service imposed severe penalties on students who did not show for their interviews. I must have come off as very morose and depressed but I did not want that job anyway. It was like there was a big dark cloud hanging over everything. The days went by. I thought that maybe I should pray for Rich's life, after all Maharaji tells us how very important this life is. But I wasn't sure that Maharaji was the deity I should be praying to anymore. So I said prayers to whatever was out there. But I kept hearing something like 'what would you give? what would you give for Rich's life?'. Finally I said 'alright, I will give away my premiehood. I don't really want it anyway. I am a complete failure at being a premie.' After a third operation, the doctors removed a bone fragment from Rich's head that was putting pressure on the brain. Then he starting regaining consciousness. He spent a long time in the hospital and then a long time in the psychiatric hospital. When he finally came home he had a big depression in the front of his head, under the skin. Later it was filled in with a metal plate so it does not look quite so bad now. He is alive now. You can talk to him and he is intelligible. He spends a lot of his time sleeping. He still does drugs. He has had no more psychotic episodes. My practice of knowledge just went into a downward spiral and I got more and more angry and reckless. I wrote a letter to Maharaji, explaining all that had happened. I got no reply. I went to a program in Chicago in the summer of '83, but nothing he said seemed relevant. He took a few questions from the audience, but there were too many people standing up to ask questions for him to notice me. I wrote him a letter suggesting that the relationship between him and me was maybe not so healthy, considering that he was always ignoring me. John Horton came around and I had a talk with him. He suggested that in domestic cases where one partner says that the other is abusing him it is often the other way around. So maybe I was abusing Maharaji. He also said that I should not be practicing satsang if I wasn't enjoying it, service if I wasn't enjoying it or meditation if I wasn't enjoying it. So I took what he said at face value and stopped practicing knowlege. I wondered if this was what it felt like to get booted out of the organization. So Marianne, now is you chance to get your revenge on me. YOU tell ME what I should have done, what I should have said to Rich to show him that life was worth living. I haven't a clue even in hindsight. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 14:49:49 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Sorrow Message: D: You need help and it isn't going to come from the Forum, I can tell you that much. First of all, I am not a vengeful person. If I was, I certainly wouldn't be a criminal defense attorney. I don't need to seek revenge on you. I feel sorry for you. I don't know who this guy John Horton is, but suggesting you were abusing M, or saying anything that allowed that suggestion to develop in your mind, is reprehensible. You have never even met the guy. How could you possibly be abusing him? I am not in a position to tell someone else how to behave or how they should have behaved. It is hard enough to make those decisions in my own life. The problem with EV/DLM is that they think that a little satsang can cure everything, and as you have learned, IT CAN'T. Did you ever go to visit your friend when he lay close to death's door in the hospital? How do you feel about how you behaved? If you have regrets about it, then I think that is the best indication one can have about whether they responded appropriately in a situation. The events you have described above are horrifying. There is no easy answer for these problems, contrary to what you have been told in satsang. Meanwhile, I suggest you try reading the forum for a while before posting again. Lastly, I have very mixed emotions in wiriting this post to you. You really hurt me with what you wrote above. Think ------ YES, THINK ----- about what you write before you post it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 15:51:16 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: suicide and guilt Message: Dear D - The story about your friend's attempt at suicide was very sad and shocking. I am guessing that you still feel somewhat responsible for what happened to him (and I suggest that you do talk to a counselor if you still think about this episode). I read your post carefully, and I don't think you did anything wrong. Like all of us, and like Marianne, you did the best you could based on who you were, and what you believed, at the time. I hope you can accept that. As you said earlier, hindsight is 20-20, and there may have been other things that you would have done now. As I said earlier, I have done, or not done, many things in my life that I regret. I do still feel bad about these things, but at least I've learned from them, have apologized and tried to make amends when I can, and have become concious enough of what I did so I won't do the same things again. I think, ultimately, that's the best we can do about mistakes we have made in the past. Also, about suicide, or suicide attempts. I have found that some people are so bound and determined to kill themselves that nothing can stop them. These people usually feel so awful that they think the world will be better off without them. Or they are experiencing so much pain that they will kill themselves to escape from it. I do think that suicide can sometimes be an act of anger, but usually it's an act of complete despair. These suicidal people are hurting so bad that they cannot even think about how much they might hurt other people by killing themselves (they might even think that they'll be HELPING other people by killing themselves). There is a extremely good chance that NOTHING you could have done would have helped your friend. BTW, I know Dr. John Horton (he used to be my doctor), and I cannot believe what he said to you about 'abusing' Maharaji, although I do think what he said about not practicing K if you weren't enjoying it makes sense (these words would have helped me when I was trying to leave M). In my experience, there was always a weird guilt involved with following M - supposedly he was working so hard and sacrificing himself to bring us the knowledge, and we could NEVER do enough to make up for what he'd given us. Dr. John's 'abusive' comment ties right into this. I'm glad you got out. Take care - Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 16:04:21 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Dismissive response Message: Another sad story. Don't be too hard on yourself. You wanted to help but going the m route you didn't have the right tools or maybe there weren't any right tools under the circumstances. You sound like a really caring person after all. Sorry about your friend. Look after yourself. Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 16:34:00 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Thank you for responding Message: D_Thomas, I want to apologize for raising suspicions about your intentions here. It is clear to me from your post above that you have no malicious intentions. Though, I would suggest you go back and look very carefully at what you wrote -- perhaps it will help you in some way. I'm just glad that you came back here (perhaps you were busy somewhere for a day or two) and responded to Marianne. With some time reading here, you will discover that unfortunately sometimes there are posters who will seemingly be asking innocent questions (that people here will go out on a limb to help with), only to then show their real intentions, which are to attempt to disrupt the forum, rebuke the posters, try to embarrass people, spin things towards M's sales pitch, etc. Some are not even premies who, IMO, are just pious assholes who give their own form of satsang, trying to force another all encompassing philosophy on the posters here. BTW, I found your long post to Marianne was quite succinct, clear, forthright and well expressed. I hope that this forum and the people here can be of benefit to you. It would seem that it already has, despite being quite an intense and dramatic first foray. Good luck and I hope you stick around. There's a whole lot that can assist you in just reading the many historical pages here, personal journeys and links such as DLM/EV. If you haven't already perused them, they are well worth it. Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 22:29:22 (EDT)
From: VP Email: None To: Helen Subject: Question Message: Very good post, Helen. I liked this part a lot: 'If there is a God, I should hope that the way to a godly life doesn't just involve withdrawing from the world and dedicating oneself to a greedy contemptuous little sociopath. I mean I would like to believe that God asks more of us that that--how about kindness and decency, and helping others, for starters?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 11:34:06 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: VP Subject: Snakes and dolphins Message: Thanks Veep! I also should hope that God isn't such a petty creature that He reincarnates us all as snakes if we reveal the almighty techniques of Knowledge to those who haven't gone through the 'proper channels' of brainwashing! Marianne's quotes from the Soul Rush book make God (or Guru M) a petty creature indeed!! Oh but I forget he's not the Lord anymore! I get so confused, one minute he's the Lord with the power to make us snakes in our next lifetime, the next minute he's just a guy with a meditation technique. I guess it's my own stupidity as a mere mortal that makes it all so complicated, guess I'll stop questioning it and just do holy name and sit like a child at the Master's feet! NOT! Met any horny dolphins lately? Don't you wish you could swim with 'em every day? (; Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 04:05:15 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: I've had that 'experience' of m being God made flesh for more than 24 years. I'd say it was the result of my expectations when I came to the cult, the stories I've heard from premies, mahatmas, m's discourses, 'divine' publications of that time, and the show that m's keeps orchestrating. Sort of mixture of all this enforced by the constant brainwashing inside the group. The brainwashing process is still going on, modernized sort of, during endless seminars & meetings like those for the 'ushering service' at events..... There are proofs of all this in publications (m saying he is God), and you may read some of them on my website: The Indian Background of Maharaji and his organizations No premie having 'that experience' would say it's a belief: they experience it - without any doubt, not realizing where 'that experience' is coming from. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 11:26:46 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: Where would you personally say that experience comes from? Also, if you had the experience of M being God then how could you leave? I never have had that experience re: M, but have had the experience of K being pure, true, and divine way before anyone had the chance to brainwash me. (That came later & was in regards to M being Lord) I have heard stories from older premies 'recognizing' M as their Lord or Master. Also heard intense darshan stories that made people 'realize' M was the Lord. For me, when K caused me to feel joy and love, I just learned to direct it toward him and, therefore, feel love 'for' him. The thing is, I still feel love and peace when I practice but it feels like it should be directed somewhere. It used to feel really good to direct it toward him, though I admit it was a learned response. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 11:39:14 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Denise Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: 'It used to feel really good to direct it toward him, though I admit it was a learned response.' i used to also experience all that stuff. Darshan dreams, see m everywhere..etc. One of the reasons I began to doubt was that I met up with devotees of other people who had the same experiences around their guru/teacher/lord.I could not deny that their 'vibe' and devotion was at least as complete as mine. It is an old brain/heart washing technique that is known as the bhakti path in the East. It is an abuse at the deepest level of trust. You only have to look at India where the masses live in poverty and believe in some guru dead or alive and dedicate their lives. This belief system keeps people 'in their place' so that cons like M can live a luxurious life. That's the beginning and end of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 14:27:32 (EDT)
From: Denise Email: None To: Jethro Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: Jethro, You're right. It was difficult for me to let go of M because of those feelings of love inside, but just as I had learned to direct them towards M, I have learned now that it's o.k. just to feel that love inside and not necessarily direct it anywhere, just enjoy feeling that way. I became familiar with the bhakti path just a few years ago and the part of the K experience related to loving M suddenly made more sense. As I was not presented with the same picture of things that earlier premies were, I just had bits and pieces of info. and what I was told didn't fit together or make that much sense. If I'd been told all the early history and told to surrender,etc. I would have run in the other direction because by then cults were widely discussed and dismissed as frauds. I was told that the old traditions of satsang and Arti and darshan were scrapped because M didn't want people to confuse his org. with a cult, and I bought that explanation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 15:23:02 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Denise Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: I have found a whole world to give 'that love' to or not as I choose and no it doesn't go rotten. Premies don't know what they are missing. If you want to see this phenomenon of making someone 'Lord', try talking to a devotee of Sai Baba and see that they have the same sort of process as premies except thay are more sophisticated and will try and hide their beliefs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 15:30:12 (EDT)
From: Miloochie Email: None To: Denise Subject: No belief: EXPERIENCE! Message: I was told that the old traditions of satsang and Arti and darshan were scrapped because M didn't want people to confuse his org. with a cult, and I bought that explanation. I was told this a few years ago when I ran into some premies I knew from the 70's. I asked, 'Hey, how's Guru M...etc.?' They said, he calls himself just M now, has dissolved DLM (not true - name changed) and gotten rid of all the India trappings. MY REACTION????? 'Oh, that's such a relief to hear. Wow, terrific...yeah....' I bought the whole sales job, hook, line and sinker. I continued to 'drift' with this lovely little feeling of gooiness inside that M was 'still there for me' if I needed him. That powerfully subtle, all life-encompassing subconcious, waking, living and sleeping delusion is on par with being a true real life zombie...EVEN for somone who wasn't practicing for fifteen years. Oh, so scary, isn't it? Two months ago, when I read through his site, M.org, I was completely disgusted at his 'I'm a victim' of all those crazy premies. 'Slimy prick. History will, and is, bringing to TRUTH to light. Miloochie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 16:29:41 (EDT)
From: bb Email: None To: Denise Subject: readable Denise Message: Hi Denise I guess I dont have to be afraid of reading your posts and getting upset. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 07:20:15 (EDT)
From: Stevei Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What is Ms Net Worth? Message: What is M's Net Worth?... Fixed Assets (house + plane) 40 M USD Cash Assets(if he is able to loan Amtext 1.5 M generally accapted yopu would give a loan of not more then 1-2 % of cash assets) ---> 50-100 MUSD I would suggest M is worth definetly more then 100 M USD (conservative estimate) and probably 200 M USD at the least....and I would not be surprised if the figure is double that... I dont personally think M has made all this money from clever business deals... So I guess he made it from premies...and not by selling videos... His annual net income is probably few million dollars from premie donations...multiply that by 25 years of loyal service....and asset revaluation.... You then arrive at a figure of netz worth of 200 M USD as a conservative estimate..... Well Why does he not give us a share of this...(Dividend distribution to all ex-s on this forum.....heheheh) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |