Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 45

From: Apr 16, 1999

To: May 3, 1999

Page: 1 Of: 5



Jim -:- More truth from Taiwan (1) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:53:45 (EDT)
__Jim -:- More truth from Taiwan (2) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:54:59 (EDT)
____HALIP -:- More truth from Taiwan -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:21:14 (EDT)
__bb -:- More from Taiwan (0) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:11:23 (EDT)
____Jim -:- I agree, this is REALLY gross -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:22:05 (EDT)
______bb -:- DO deconstruct it Jimmie (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:26:15 (EDT)
______catweasel -:- I agree, this is REALLY gross -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:40:12 (EDT)
________A survivor -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 14:34:25 (EDT)
__________catweasel -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 03:57:49 (EDT)
____________Another survivor -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 09:38:21 (EDT)
____________Freud -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 09:50:06 (EDT)
______________A real drop out -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 11:33:32 (EDT)
________________Tweety Bird -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 12:13:08 (EDT)
__________________barney -:- Heard of intelligence -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 13:29:51 (EDT)
____________________CATweasel -:- Heard of intelligence -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:39:54 (EDT)
______________________JW -:- Heard of intelligence -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 13:09:26 (EDT)
______________________barney -:- Heard of intelligence -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 15:51:26 (EDT)
________________________catweasel -:- Heard of intelligence -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 12:31:08 (EDT)
__________________________JW -:- You Haven't -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:12:49 (EDT)
__________________________barney -:- Boring! Yawn (nt) -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 15:52:12 (EDT)
________________Freud -:- Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 16:26:23 (EDT)
________________Victoria -:- What 'NT' means -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 23:23:40 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Comfortable Numbness -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 14:50:33 (EDT)
______________Victoria -:- Ex-Freud, OT -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 23:32:34 (EDT)
____Liz -:- More from Taiwan (0) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:42:44 (EDT)
______catweasel -:- More from Taiwan (0) -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 10:15:13 (EDT)
________JW -:- How the Fuck Do you Know? -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 13:17:00 (EDT)
__________catweasel -:- How the Fuck Do you Know? -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 12:45:30 (EDT)
____________BlueBird -:- How the Fuck Do you Know? -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 13:56:12 (EDT)
____________JW -:- How the Fuck Do you Know? -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:09:14 (EDT)
______________BlueBird -:- How the Fuck Do you Know? -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:25:16 (EDT)
________________catweasel -:- Fact versus Fiction -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 21:18:02 (EDT)
__________________Nim -:- Fact versus Fiction -:- Sun, May 02, 1999 at 22:31:29 (EDT)
____________________catweasel -:- Fact versus Fiction -:- Mon, May 03, 1999 at 08:36:34 (EDT)
______Nil -:- More from Taiwan (0) -:- Sat, May 01, 1999 at 17:05:55 (EDT)

Jim -:- Help! CD, protect me! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:42:10 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- LES MISERABLES -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:00:34 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Help! CD, protect me! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:15:20 (EDT)
__Jim -:- They revised it -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:32:30 (EDT)
____Scottie -:- Jim, the dilithium crystals... -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:13:12 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- Did you see the movie? -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 10:22:42 (EDT)
__HALIP -:- Help! CD, protect me! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:14:40 (EDT)
____Jim -:- No, it wasn't CD -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 21:28:31 (EDT)
______catweasel -:- No, it wasn't CD -:- Mon, May 03, 1999 at 08:56:23 (EDT)
________JHB -:- You're in the minority -:- Mon, May 03, 1999 at 09:24:03 (EDT)

Katie -:- birthdays WITHOUT astrology :) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:38:21 (EDT)
__JHB -:- 25th June 1953 (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:50:56 (EDT)
__starla -:- Hey! astrology can be a hoot! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:58:57 (EDT)
__Denise -:- 29 June (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:12:39 (EDT)
____TD -:- 9 April (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:32:03 (EDT)
__Liz -:- birthdays WITHOUT astrology :) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:58:45 (EDT)
____Traveler -:- birthdays WITHOUT astrology :) -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:14:48 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- 15th March - The Ides -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 01:33:40 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Guess! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 07:14:35 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Guess! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:20:32 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Wrong! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 15:50:46 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Wrong! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:37:08 (EDT)
__david m -:- Birthdays -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 09:50:53 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Birthdays -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:11:47 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Robyn, take note! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:18:40 (EDT)
________Happy -:- July 29 (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:29:47 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Robyn, take note! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:32:27 (EDT)

crow -:- egad!-elanvital.org. -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:41:10 (EDT)
__crow -:- keeping in touch-april99 -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:48:25 (EDT)
__Mary -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 17:42:54 (EDT)
____JW -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 18:09:25 (EDT)
______biff -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:06:37 (EDT)
________JW -:- Hey biff -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:33:28 (EDT)
__________crow -:- JW -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:55:48 (EDT)
____________Mary M -:- K-Lite Drive Through -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:08:12 (EDT)
______________bb -:- K-Lite Drive Through -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:39:07 (EDT)
__________biff -:- Hey bill -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 14:44:50 (EDT)
________Mary -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:02:42 (EDT)
__________Denise -:- Advertising -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:56:25 (EDT)
________Traveler -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
__________Nim -:- visionsinternational.org -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 09:57:44 (EDT)
________Nim -:- Legacy of Larceny -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:14:26 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- get 'em while they're hot! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:05:32 (EDT)
__Roger E. Drek -:- I knew it! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:36:11 (EDT)
____Mary M -:- I knew it! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 10:01:38 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- I knew it! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:04:30 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- I knew it! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:12:05 (EDT)
__victoria -:- egad!-elanvital.org. -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:22:16 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- tamil ??? -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:44:29 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- tamil ??? Yes -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:13:16 (EDT)
______Roger E. Drek -:- tamil - question -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:35:20 (EDT)
________Happy -:- tamil - question -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 16:25:23 (EDT)
__________Roger E. Drek -:- tamil - question -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 21:28:45 (EDT)

Ophelia -:- West Coast CORN -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:31:06 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- New old stuff on my website -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:35:25 (EDT)
__Jean_Michel -:- And one more chapter today! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:01:07 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- And one more again today -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 12:54:30 (EDT)

Mary M -:- Runamok & All -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:29:10 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Runamok & All -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:15:47 (EDT)

Roger E. Drek -:- The webpage that died -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 03:13:31 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Registering on search engines -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 09:34:05 (EDT)
__Sir David -:- Registering on search engines -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:33:25 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Registering on search engines -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 03:58:04 (EDT)
______Sir Dave -:- Registering on search engines -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 05:43:33 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- Registering ex-premie.org? -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:23:07 (EDT)

Denise -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 21:07:37 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 21:16:03 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:39:34 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 23:19:33 (EDT)
____cp -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 01:35:46 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Expremie Doubts Liz -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:20:52 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Expremie Doubts Robyn -:- Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 00:06:35 (EDT)
__Jethro -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 04:00:37 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 17:39:15 (EDT)
______Nim -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:08:34 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 09:36:11 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:05:08 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 19:38:06 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- To Denise -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:52:17 (EDT)
________Selene -:- To Denise -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:56:06 (EDT)
__________Jethro -:- To Selene-OT -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:47:05 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- To Jethro-OT -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:07:51 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:40:58 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- Expremie Confirmations -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 00:06:26 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- Experience it and leave! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 05:24:26 (EDT)
______Diz -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 07:26:53 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- That's VERY much wrong -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:21:05 (EDT)
________Denise -:- That's VERY much wrong -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:24:48 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- I'd rush (you) to a doctor -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
____________Denise -:- I'd rush (you) to a doctor -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:04:38 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:38:11 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 16:48:17 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:14:30 (EDT)
______Sir David -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:55:33 (EDT)
________Happy -:- True greatness -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:39:49 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- coming soon as ***Best*** -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:52:16 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:35:59 (EDT)
____cp -:- God Jim you say it so right -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 01:23:31 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:03:38 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Your NEXT doubt! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 06:24:28 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Your NEXT doubt! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:15:52 (EDT)
______Sir Dave -:- Your NEXT doubt! -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EDT)
________Roger E. Drek -:- Good stuff -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:11:18 (EDT)
__________Denise -:- Hypnotic suggestion -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:41:03 (EDT)
____________Roger E. Drek -:- Hypnotic suggestion -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:35:32 (EDT)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Good stuff -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 17:16:05 (EDT)
________Happy -:- Always leave room for doubt -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:18:57 (EDT)
______Nim -:- Oxymoronic Denise. -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:24:51 (EDT)
__AJW -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:59:26 (EDT)
____Diz -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:48:57 (EDT)
______AJW -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 15:17:39 (EDT)
__Nim -:- K-Lite, Shmay-Kite!! -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:47:43 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- 'NOW and Forever' : HYPNOTIC -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 03:17:08 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 20:00:04 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Expremie Doubts -:- Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 04:11:27 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maharaji's Taiwan satsang -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:29:02 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Maharaji's Taiwan satsang -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:45:23 (EDT)
__Mary M -:- Baby Crying -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:23:14 (EDT)
____g's mom -:- Baby Crying -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:26:47 (EDT)
__HALIP -:- Maharaji's Taiwan satsang -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 19:06:15 (EDT)
__crow -:- rawats Taiwan yapping -:- Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 05:30:03 (EDT)

nigel -:- A premie with a lot to say -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:27:53 (EDT)

akaam -:- Where is Peter Crisp? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:08:44 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Where is Peter Crisp? -:- Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 10:32:42 (EDT)
__lurker -:- Where is Peter Crisp? -:- Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 01:41:57 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:53:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More truth from Taiwan (1)
Message:


CROSS THE THRESHOLD
If you have decided that you want to receive this gift of Knowledge, you have come to a threshold. What does it take - and what does it mean - to cross that threshold?

First of all, you have to come from the heart. You are not going to recognise the value of water unless you are thirsty. You are not going to recognise the value of food unless you are hungry. An umbrella isn't going to mean anything to you unless you know that you want to keep out of the rain. Maybe you can keep it closed and use it as a walking stick. Maybe you can carry it around as a fashion accessory. But really, it has a much more meaningful purpose.

It is the same with Knowledge. Only your heart can recognize the real value of this gift. Therefore, you have to come to it with your heart, not your head.

Your heart can respond to Knowledge because Knowledge is something you feel. Your head though, only knows one way to recognise anything. It has to label and quantify everything. The more you try to define something that defies definition, the more it is going to elude you. You can't recognize Knowledge by questioning it. You can only recognize it by embracing it. You have to embrace and accept it, not just try to make it match your expectations.

MYSTERY PACKAGE
Here's an example. Suppose I give you a box, gift wrapped in beautiful paper with a bow on top. What do you imagine is in that box?

If you are really hungry, you will hope that it has food in it. You will sniff it, hoping to smell something edible. If you are thirsty, you will hope that it contains something to drink. You will shake it, hoping to feel water sloshing about. If you are in pain, you will hope it contains ointment or medicine. If you happen to need a new pair of shoes, you will hope it contains shoes. If your tape recorder is broken, you'll hope this box has a new cassette player for you. If you yearn for a watch, you'll listen very carefully in case you can hear it ticking.

What is actually in that box? You don't know. The box contains what it contains. Before you have even opened it, you have started to pin a big expectation on it.

This is because, as human beings, we relate to life through our needs. The more we feel we need something, the less we stop to think about what might really be going on.

NEEDS MUST
If I am wearing a suit and I want to sit down, I may look for a nice clean chair. If though I am really, really tired and I can't find a chair, I'll sit anywhere. If I can't stand up a moment longer, I will sit on the grass or on the floor. It just doesn't matter anymore.

When I am really, really sleepy, all I know is that I want to sleep. It doesn't matter where I am.

If I am too hot, I will have to take off my jacket. If am too cold, I will have to put my jacket on.

When we have a need, we look out at the world and all we can see, reflecting back at us, is that 'need'.

TABLE MANNERS
Yesterday, after the event, I was driving past some shops. I saw a restaurant on the side of the street. At one big table in the middle of the restaurant, five or six people were eating. The rest of the place was empty. One man at the table kept looking around as if he was anxiously trying to get the waiter's attention. But there didn't seem to be any waiters. It was very curious. Then I realised what was happening. This was a family-owned restaurant. If there had been any customers, the people at that table would have been the waiters for them. They must have got hungry and decided to have a meal.

The guy who was looking round was the manager, hopefully looking around to see if any customers might be coming. He was satisfying one hunger but he clearly had another need. He was hungry for business!

NO COMPARISON
So, what is it that your heart needs? Do you know? Because that's the point your are going to have to come from if you want to understand the value of Knowledge. From no other point of view is it going to make sense.

Knowledge brings you an experience that is already within you. It is pointless to think about what you want the experience to be like. It is what it is and it is already there. It's not your choice. You can't decide: 'I want that kind of experience, or that kind of experience.'

The day you were born, that experience was within you. It will be there until the day you die. All you have to do is be willing to accept this experience AS IT IS. This is so important. Not 'how it could be' or 'how you think it ought to be'. Don't compare it to something you have read about in a book or something that someone once told you about.

Don't make complicated comparisons. Don't even make simple comparisons Just experience something totally simple within yourself. Something beautiful, powerful, simple and divine, all at the same time.

HIGH AND MIGHTY
Most people see divinity and simplicity as opposites. To me, they are one and the same. Most people who believe in God point high in the sky. They imagine the creator is very far away. Why?

Maybe it is because if God were close, it would make things very complicated.

But what if I were to tell you that here, in your heart, is a temple; the only temple worth visiting. This is the only place where you and the creator exist all the time; side by side. Inseparable.

Is it that simple?

Yes. There is one simple truth.

The simple truth is that truth is simple.

And it lies within you.

THE INNER TEMPLE
Can it really be so simple? Isn't a person supposed to keep searching for the truth their whole life long? If you want to know the truth, aren't you supposed to search and search, search and discover, then search some more?

One thing is evident. As long as you have to keep searching for something, you haven't found it.

There is an old saying: 'You will always find the thing you are seeking in the last place you look.' That's true because, when you find it, that WILL be the last place you look. Once you have found it, you won't be looking for it any more.

People say: 'Search here and search there, search for this and search for that...' But who suggests that, instead of doing all that searching, you just search your heart?

I say: 'Come here, come to this inner temple.' Come here to this place within. Come here to your home. Without a fanfare, in utter simplicity, learn to embrace that which has always been within you.

'Feel its timelessness. Feel the moment and you feel the infinite.'

AN INFINITE UNDERSTANDING
What does 'infinite' mean? It is very easy to define that word. It means 'something that has no end'. But if you actually want to find something with no end, see something with no end, feel something with no end... then feel something with no end. To feel the infinite, turn within. Look into your heart, not your head.

If I drop a pin on a carpet, what should I use to pick it up? Huge tongs, or a small pair of tweezers? If I use tongs, I won't be able to pick it up. When it comes to grasping something subtle, like a feeling, the intellect is a similarly crude tool. You need the right tool for the right job. The intellect is a fine tool to use when your eyes are open. But when they are closed, when you are looking at something that only exists within you, you need a different kind of tool.

So come to this place in your heart, with an open heart. Don't come with assumptions. Come with a willingness to accept and to feel fulfilled. That is what taking a step across the inner threshold is all about.

THE MASTER KEY
The master, and this is really all that a master should be, is someone who points to the door and shows you where to find the key. After that, the master should be quiet. Because it is your determination, YOUR want, that has to prevail, in order to open the door. A master who is willing to push you through the door is no good. You have to take that step through the door yourself.

To cross the threshold into Knowledge, you just have to understand and accept something simple and obvious. You just have to embrace this heart, embrace this time, embrace this gift of life.

Embrace this consciousness, because without it, 'nothing' wouldn't even be 'nothing'.

MIRROR IMAGE
Your identity is not as fixed as you might imagine. It changes, as you change over the years. In your youth, there is no way of knowing who you will become. And when you are old, it is hard to remember who you were.

When you're young, you go fast, fast, fast. When you're old, you go slow, slow, slow. When you're young, it's 'Now, now, now.' When you're old, it's 'Wait a minute, wait a minute.' Are these paradoxes?

Earlier, I was talking about a little child. He was free. Free as a bird.

You are that child. There is no one sitting here who was not once that child. When you hear 'child', do you think of someone else because when you look in the mirror, you don't see a child?

Then let me tell you about another mirror, one where you will see that child, and you will see that child until the very day you die. There is such a mirror. It is the mirror of absolute truth.

The mirror that you see your face in doesn't tell you the truth. It lies. You can put on a little powder and cover up what you don't like. You can kid yourself in that mirror. If you've been crying, you can cover it up.

But the mirror inside always tells the truth, and there, you will see the reflection of that free bird. That free child.

That's the true mirror.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:54:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More truth from Taiwan (2)
Message:
HEAVEN AND EARTH
Sometimes people ask me: 'What happens after death?' I say: 'What about NOW? What's happening now? Do you want to feel fulfilled in 'heaven' or do you want to feel fulfilled here and now?'

Some people paint pictures of how it's supposed to be in heaven.

They paint people eating lovely food; wonderful sweets and fruits, but the tongue you need to taste them with stays here.

Heaven is supposed to be full of beautiful clouds, but how are you going to see them if your eyes stay here when you leave this earth?

Heaven is supposed to be full of wonderful music, but how are you going to listen to that when the ears you need to hear it with have been left behind?

In heaven you are supposed to be smiling all the time, but the mouth you smile with stays here.

People say: 'But my spirit will go'. Your spirit is right here, right now, wanting you to be fulfilled. If you can't satisfy it here, where you have tools, where are you going to satisfy it? When?

If a car can't be repaired at a mechanics, where can it be repaired? If a suit can't be mended at a tailor's shop, where can it be mended? If a doctor can't cure your ailments at a hospital, where can they be cured?

Here, now, is when you have a union of the spirit and the body. This is the most perfect marriage: the infinite and the finite have come together. The infinite: what was, is, and will be... plus the finite: what wasn't, is, and won't be.

THE I'S HAVE IT.
It is very intriguing. Two different identities have come together. Two different types of 'I'. One 'I' is infinite. Another 'I' is finite. When these two 'I's are brought together, you have life. You have consciousness. Now you can feel. Now you can understand. Now you can admire.

That's a big difference between being alive and not being alive! And what is that difference?

In life, the two 'I's have come together. In each breath, something beautiful is manifesting. That union between the finite and the infinite is making existence possible. In death, those two 'I's go their separate ways. One was, is and will be... but the other...

Think of yourself as a sculptor. Think of your life as a stone. You can carve it into many different shapes. You can put it to many different uses. You need to think carefully about how you want it to turn out.

THE MARVEL OF MARBLE
Marble, for example, is a very beautiful stone. It's amazing stuff and it can be used for many different purposes but it all comes from the same quarry. Down in the quarry, they dig it up. Some pieces of marble will end up as floor tiles. People will end up walking on them. Some pieces will be made into mortars and pestles to grind up medicinal herbs. People will use that marble as part of a healing process. Some pieces will become chairs for people to sit on. One piece of marble will become a beautiful fountain, another will become a bird table. People will use that marble to glorify their garden. Yet another piece of marble will be made into a statue of a god or goddess. People may end up worshipping that particular piece of marble!

It is all the same stuff. All the same marble. So what is the difference?

EXPERT HANDS
Now here is another point. Some marble is going to end up getting carved into the shape of a human being. It is going to form a beautiful statue of someone. But when the finger of that marble statue breaks off, is anyone going to call a doctor? Will a doctor come and take it to hospital, give it an X ray, apply some special ointment and surgically repair it?

No. If you have marble statue and the finger falls off, who will you call? A person who carves stone. Only that person will know how to glue it back together. If you have a marble mortar and pestle and that breaks, who will you call? The same person. The same person will fix the crack in your marble floor and mend your broken bird bath.

It is all still the same marble.

Time is passing by. So decide what you want to make out of this marble. It will always remain a piece of marble but in one form, it will enhance your ability to enjoy existence and in another form, it might not.

How will you spend your time? Feeling fulfilled? Shaping your piece of marble into something meaningful? Or just complaining? Complaining about what seems to you, like the emptiness of life.

OPENING TIME
When the artist, Van Gogh, was alive, no one wanted to buy his paintings. Then he died, and now everyone wants to buy them.

Now they pay millions of dollars for them.

That's acceptance! But it's a little late for Van Gogh and for all the people who could have been enjoying his work while he was still alive.

Inside your head, there is a doubtmaker. All it wants to do is cast doubt on everything. This is the time to tell it to take a vacation, to go take a rest. Accept this gift of life while it is on offer to you. Accept this gift of Knowledge while it is on offer to you!

I'm alive, and you're alive. Right now. That is an incredible blessing.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:21:14 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More truth from Taiwan
Message:
From a previous episode...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ,snore, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, snore, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, snore, ZZZZZZZZZZZZ, snore...

OH, TIME TO WAKE UP ! So much truth, I should stay awake to bathe in its light, but I'm falling back, deep, deep and deeper into....

ZZZZZZZZZZ, snore, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, snore, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, snore, ZZZZZZZZZ, snore...

Happy and lethargic in Paris
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:11:23 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More from Taiwan (0)
Message:
The web of deciet and pretense is getting thicker if that is
possible. DId anyone see that free bird or free child in
any 'mirror of absolute truth inside'?

Does JOan Apter's comments on her life with knowledge make any
reference at all to some divine inside????
The answer is a big NO.
Thirty years of giving her life away and he still puts on the
pretense for the new victims and markets the breath in an
insidious way. The wolf in sheeps clothing if there ever was one.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:22:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: I agree, this is REALLY gross
Message:
I wish I had the time to deconstruct this sermon now but I don't. Band practise and first got to run, get some food, go make dinner for the girlfriend. But, really, this is one of the vilest satsangs this guy's given in some time. Read it carefully. It's appalling AND it comfirms the point I keep making to Denise in spades. The price of admission is indeed your mind, your curiosity, ultimately your full self-respect.

Jai sat chit anand!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:26:15 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DO deconstruct it Jimmie (nt)
Message:
etyhwe
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:40:12 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: the end
To: Jim
Subject: I agree, this is REALLY gross
Message:
You actually appall me Jim,why dont you get into bonsais or something.for some one ex your mighty current!you want to be careful buddy you may well get sucked in by any number of possibilities.I just fail to understand why you bother, I mean I use to smoke dope once but I havent made a life long study of it!!Let it go Jimbo theres this really succesful premie who gave up practising in the mid 80's.Went on to become probably the wealthiest advertising executive in the Southern Hemisphere.Hit a tree this weekend out in the country and was killed in front of his wife and kids!Hadnt talked about M or knowledge for years and told me recently hadnt thought about it or been interested since the day he stopped practising.When his wife ran to the nearest famhouse to get help ,100 kilometers from any where, guess who answered the door??A practising premie couple who had known the guy really well.Just co-incedence I suppose.But why you are so interested in what M's doing and saying just astounds me.If you hit a tree in the forest would anybody care?Perhaps more interestingly would you have wasted Years on something that didnt really mean anything to you.I consider this a total waste of time but I guess I'm mildly interested in why someone would dedicate so much time to something they hate????
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 14:34:25 (EDT)
From: A survivor
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 03:57:49 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: Cruising
To: A survivor
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
Yeah he tried to track down the killers of 6million Jews for fifty years.Whats the connection are you all Jewish ??Or just plain dead .Fallacious argument!When Freud was exposed as a fraud did all the shrinks get together and start up an ex-Freud site?Did simon W chase down all the practising orthodox Jews of Israel who murdered thousands of palestinians from 1947 onwards in the name of a righteous jewish state.THats the problem with all you righteous zealots'you need some one to blame but never yourself!!Ole zimon, the zionist ,well he had good reason but you lot?your' just another sad old man dying of cancer'Me?Im comfortably numb!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 09:38:21 (EDT)
From: Another survivor
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
Maybe it's something to do with wanting to see a better world that people follow causes like Wiesental has.

Who do you blame for prempal protecting molesters? Sounds like you approve of that behaviour.

By the way your rhetoric gives you away. I have met you a hundred times before.

You are for more hatelful and angry that anyone here.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 09:50:06 (EDT)
From: Freud
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
'Yeah he tried to track down the killers of 6million Jews for fifty years.'
He did find quite a few and thwarted many neo-nazi organisations. Were you in one of those organisations?

'Whats the connection are you all Jewish ??'
Yes, we are a group of 300 Jews who are planning to take over the world. Haven't you read the protocols?

'Did simon W chase down all the practising orthodox Jews of Israel who murdered thousands of palestinians from 1947 onwards in the name of a righteous jewish state.'

Interesting statement that you use the words 'practising orthodox Jews'. Very showing of your knowledge indeed.

'Ole zimon, the zionist ,well he had good reason but you lot?your' just another sad old man dying of cancer''
Hmmmmm exceedingly interesting how you can dis someone's lf ein one sentence. I wonder who taught you that?

'Me?Im comfortably numb!'
Excellent self-analysis.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 11:33:32 (EDT)
From: A real drop out
Email: today not yesterday
To: Freud
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
You know your all fucked up thats why your here!!!who cares what you think!But to put yourselves in the same LEAGUE as simon ,well that really shows up your magnificent paranoia,and if you were stuck in an ashram and didnt hear PINK FLOYD more fool you!!So when you all meet up in your gloius ex premie future you could mayybe all hold hands at the Houston astrodome ,welcome the new millenia and sing Kumbiyah you dumb fucks
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 12:13:08 (EDT)
From: Tweety Bird
Email: None
To: A real drop out
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
ARDO,

You must need your 'unibrow' plucked or something.

You're awfully cranky. Just sit down, chill, stick your fingers in your ears (this keeps them off the keyboard) and tamp down some ear wax.

Tweet, tweet
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 13:29:51 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: Heard of intelligence
Message:
Steven, we know that it is you . Why don't you be a man and post with your real name ?

Steven, your responses, while welcome, lack critical thinking and are knee-jerk reactions. For example, the Simon Wiesenthal connection to ex-premies is not as invalid as you make it out to be. Sure, we'll all smart enough to know that Maharaji is/was not as dangerous as Hitler, but many of us have suffered from Maharaji's megalomania that he Lorded over us. And, one of the purposes of the Forum is to bring alleged criminal activities and abuses to light to allow premies and possible aspirants the opportunity to read about it. In that way we are similar to Simon Wiesenthal . Of course, readers must make up their own minds as to what they believe as some of this information is very difficult to prove without a doubt because the nature of the organization and their efforts to conceal any wrong doing.

Don't be afraid of your intelligence. Put it all together and use it. You can still believe in what you believe. While I cannot speak for everyone here, but I'm don't really care one way or the other that you wish to follow Maharaji as I am more interested in seeing that the other side of Maharaji's story is presented.
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:39:54 (EDT)
From: CATweasel
Email: mensa
To: barney
Subject: Heard of intelligence
Message:
Well Barney I certainly have heard of it but I see no evidence of it here!You'd probably be shocked but Ive heard on pretty good authority that there are quite a few current premies actually excercising theirs even as we post!!!!!! Hell I even make mega bucks using mine but I KNOW ,I'm deluded aren't I?Really I'M UNHAPPY 'YES??Sound familiar?Same crappy 70's style message only now the 'Guru' is your new found ark of dicontent'TheEx-Premies site'Is that like an ex-hippie site, or an ex child site?So silly!
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 13:09:26 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CATweasel
Subject: Heard of intelligence
Message:
I was wondering if your name is self-descriptive.

Regarding what this site is, I can give you my opinion. It is an informational site. It provides information that BM tries to suppress and which is completely lacking on the vacuous and heavily censored premie sites. It gives information and a counter opinion, especially to the lies BM has on HIS site to the effect that he, for example, 'never wanted to be a leader.' You only need to see the history section of this website, or look at a few of the pictures of BM dancing half naked wearing crowns to see what a blatant lier he actually is.

People are free to look at all the sites and then make up their own minds what they thing of M and his cult based on more complete information. What the hell is wrong with that? More information is a good thing.
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 15:51:26 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: CATweasel
Subject: Heard of intelligence
Message:
CATweasel,

I can barely make sense of what you're trying to say. Is English a second language for you? If so then I can compensate and try harder in my reading.

If you read the post by JW Heard of intelligence regardless of it's message, it is an example of coherent writing that is easily understandable.

Also, for the record are you QuasiPremie, Us, You, Me, or Them? If so why can't you take the hint and leave?
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 12:31:08 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: Take a wild guess
To: barney
Subject: Heard of intelligence
Message:
Well Mr Rubble your the intelligent one what do you think??what definition do you like?Come on get real,the only ones still practising areligious dogma are you Guys on this pathetic site.YOU live it, breath it, eat it, even drink it by the look of recent posts.If you really were X you wouldnt still be here!!!
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:12:49 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: You Haven't
Message:
Hey weasel, we've heard your opinon of what ALL the exes are. How could be miss it -- you keep repeating it. Got anything else to say?
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 15:52:12 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Boring! Yawn (nt)
Message:
boring
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 16:26:23 (EDT)
From: Freud
Email: None
To: A real drop out
Subject: Heard of Simon Wiesenatal?NT
Message:
I would tell you to go and fuck yourself.....but clearly you are doing that all the time.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 23:23:40 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: A real drop out
Subject: What 'NT' means
Message:
no text

Which part of pink floyd should we listen to now, just to catch up on the lost years, I mean?

if you were stuck in an ashram and didnt hear PINK FLOYD more fool you!!

What does it mean? 'more fool you' ??

Who is Steven? Are you Steven? Gosh, I can't take a minute away from this forum, otherwise i am a 'dumb fuck.'

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 14:50:33 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Comfortable Numbness
Message:
When Freud was exposed as a fraud did all the shrinks get together and start up an ex-Freud site?

You bet they did -- although not everyone thinks Freud is a fraud.

Enjoy the comfort of your numbness. Some of us have moved on from that vegetative state and are feeling much better.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 23:32:34 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ex-Freud, OT
Message:
This is true, there is a lot of ex-Freud out there...I remember from college when I hung out with the Feminists in my Junior year, they were trying to tell me that Freud knew that 3 out of 4 women were sexually abused by their fathers, but instead invented the Electra Complex, to cover it up!

Of course, that was back when it was popular to have suppressed memories of one's father having sexually abused oneself.

Thank God that theory was debunked. It was totally creepy having all those Rabid Feminist Social Workers running around loose, one of whom stated at a public meeting that she could tell whether or not a person had been sexually abused in childhood, 'just by looking at them.'

For reals.

--Victoria
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:42:44 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More from Taiwan (0)
Message:
I have had k as long as Joan Aptor and have practiced it too. I am 50 this year (like our friend Anth) and have decided to give up on it. Not because k didn't work (sometimes) but because m has never validated my existence.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 10:15:13 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: Last Chance Motel
To: Liz
Subject: More from Taiwan (0)
Message:
Thats lame.what do you want?I've had most of what you dreamed of,but it really doesnt affect the real integrity of knowledge.Dont get sucked in by this lot !Most of them haven't seen or heard M in 20 yearsand never practised K for any length of Time!Whoa here they come!!which INdians white man said tonto!!
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 13:17:00 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: How the Fuck Do you Know?
Message:
Hey catweasel:

I wondered if you know any of us and therefore have any basis whatsoever for making the following statement:

Most of them haven't seen or heard M in 20 yearsand never practised K for any length of Time!

I happen to know that for many of us here that is a complete lie. You can make up crap like this is you want to, but it's really damaging to your credibility.

Keep posting, though. You are a wonderful example of what 'this knowledge' can do for you.
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 12:45:30 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: I read
To: JW
Subject: How the Fuck Do you Know?
Message:
assumption!!!How do you know who I am ,what I am ,whether I know you or not?Your posts give a lot away about you guys with regard to last contact with M and what people did or didnt do during that time.Read all the archives,I have.Took notes too!Makes for areally scattered generalised loopy lot>
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 13:56:12 (EDT)
From: BlueBird
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: How the Fuck Do you Know?
Message:
Read all the archives,I have

Good little pussy-cat! That's why your master had you fixed a long time ago.

Purrrrrrrr
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:09:14 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: How the Fuck Do you Know?
Message:
If you read the archives, then you know that a lot of exes followed your fraudulent guru for many years, and practiced knowledge according to his directions, such as they were. Moreover, quite a number have just split from the cult recently, within the last year or a few months and so they are quite familiar with knowledge lite and the current cult belief system. So, your statement is full of shit.

By the way, weasel, YOU are the one saying that exes didn't practice knowledge or haven't seen BM recently. If you read the archives, then you know you are a liar and you don't need me to tell you.
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 14:25:16 (EDT)
From: BlueBird
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: How the Fuck Do you Know?
Message:
The Cat was just here to ABATE his MASTUR'S temper about this site.

Simply one of his lard's eunuchs.
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 21:18:02 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: a nice place
To: BlueBird
Subject: Fact versus Fiction
Message:
Nah your both wrong,I just dont really care.Its more like sticking a pointed stick down an anthill and waiting for the predictable result.In a post I sent last night [ the queen ant Brian deleted it],I pointed out how out of touch with whats really happening in M'S world you all really are. A few agro posts and we've got your attention!Its the pure fantasy of some of the ex's that amazes me, that ,and the rumour that becomes fact.Jim's busy down loading transcripts of M from the premie sites and then putting his strange spins on it .Its nowhere near as covert as you imagine .And as you know every_one has a little something to do if they want.What I do gives me a very open view of M,his very current activities and his interaction with premies.Its no skin of my nose whether you choose to be continue to be duped by so-called friends and 'experts' but you are and thats a fact.The whole reportage of M,his events,and the people involved is basically distorted and a minestrone of fact interwoven with fiction and abuse.My posts have maintained the rather unfortunate tone of your site but Ive wasted enough time here for now [bet you delete this]Goodbye
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Date: Sun, May 02, 1999 at 22:31:29 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: Fact versus Fiction
Message:
My posts have maintained the rather unfortunate tone of your site but Ive wasted enough time here for now [bet you delete this]Goodbye
Nope. Doesn't look like Brian's going to delete this one.
Your dementia stands on record.
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Date: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 08:36:34 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: Iwish Iwas as clever as you are
To: Nim
Subject: Fact versus Fiction
Message:
I feel the peer group pressure to conform.Ipromise Ill be as mind -numbing as the rest of you !
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Date: Sat, May 01, 1999 at 17:05:55 (EDT)
From: Nil
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: More from Taiwan (0)
Message:
Liz, what kind of validation are you looking for?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:42:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help! CD, protect me!
Message:
Over on CD's web stie (typo? maybe) Steven said this:

Hello Jim,
There is a movie called . LES MISERABLES - 1998 . Maybe you could go to a video shop and get it . In It is the police inspector . This particular part reminds me of what Your efforts are like .
Our many loving resorces are at work now . Jim you have to understand YOU STARTED IT . NOW YOU CALL IT SPAMMING ?
Do you feel that premies are just going to stand by and do nothing . ( IN A TOTALLY PEACEFUL , LAW ABIDING WAY)?
Its NOT Maharaji thats doing it . Remember Jim you started it .
Go get the movie you may enjoy it


Note the meditation spaces before each period. Anyway, is there anyone who's seen the movie who can guess what brother Steven's talking about? I heard it sucked so I'm not too hot on renting it. Can anyone assist?

So, that post triggered this one from 'Crocodile Dundee' (just my favorite film of all time!):

More like go get alife Jim then we might enjoy it!!!!!!heh heh heh??So serious guys for such a dud?????in the land of oz we would wait until Jim shrivelled up in the sun like yesterdays dinner after a few beers .i.e,he's nothing more than stale vomit,afriendless turd!!!!!!

Note that there are no meditation pauses in this post.

So, I'm hoping CD does the right thing and protects me from the love. I do feel a little gratitude here, not to mention some appreciation but, all in all, it's a bit much.

CD?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:00:34 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LES MISERABLES
Message:
Hi Jim,

The book is better. Movies often have a shallower perspective.

L,
Mary
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:15:20 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Help! CD, protect me!
Message:
God! a movie??

Hasn't he even heard of the live production? It's been touring for years. long enough that my son worked on the Tucson / Phoenix
show.
geez let's all look to CD for culture. oh yeah and let's not forget the book.....
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:32:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They revised it
Message:
Here's how:

Revised version....

Enjoy alife is more like it Jim !!!!!!! HE ha He ha he Ha ????? So serious lovers for such a dude ????

Your words mean so much to us over here .

Some of our minds spew forth what we are imprisoned by !

Take it from one who has to interveiw schizophrenic's on a daily basis . Please seek help .

Your hate in your thoughts is very evident , Your anger towards other people like me . Is not helping anything. The reason you use the internet to vent your hostility is because it is hard for you to say things to peoples faces . So this is the perfect medium for a mind that is filled with discust for Maharaji and His premie's . Please if you choose to have hate then please share the hate with another website .


Obviously, this one's got lots of room for meditation in it too.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:13:12 (EDT)
From: Scottie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, the dilithium crystals...
Message:
Jim, the dilithium crystals are so completely drained from being eaten by the Tribbles ever since you beamed down to Planet Steven that McCoy says that he's a Doctor and not a medicine man and I shouldn't risk beaming you up in the transporter regardless of how little intelligence is down there.

We're waiting for the Constellation for replacements. Two weeks at best.

Jim, can you hold out a little longer?
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 10:22:42 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Premies
Subject: Did you see the movie?
Message:
I heard that your master does not want you to see movies.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:14:40 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Help! CD, protect me!
Message:
Comment ? Quoi ! I am truly choquée... How did Victor Hugo, one of our French Grands Hommes, got dragged into this ? Oh boy, this CD person got no respect, I'm telling you !

Happy and offended in Paris (alright, we, French people, are a bit testy when it comes to our Culture, Litterature and Art, but that's because we think we have invented the concept of Culture, Litterature and Art... OK, the Greek did it before us, but that's because we weren't there yet to do it better, with more flair !)
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 21:28:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: HALIP
Subject: No, it wasn't CD
Message:
Sorry to not make it clear. It wasn't CD but other premies posting on his page. Here's one of the latest:

Jethro ,

There is nothing anyone can say to you . Unless they are in agreement with you ! On the one question I do not know what your refering to ! Jethro I do not trust very many people in my life . Nor do I trust very many Instructors .
Maharaji is a very - very strong owner of HIS BUSINESSES . He will take what ever steps need be . But what does this have to do with you making an effort to sit down and practice knowledge by yourself . I know it is very hard sumtimes to quiet down .

To many premies I talk to; they say that reading ex-org posts is like mad magazine . Or the enquier of the ex- world !

Now about the premie plant I do not know ???
Maybe if I see him here at a video I will ask him eye to eye . Thats how I like conversing with people .

Steven

But then just look at Catweasle's post above. Yes, Maharaji may be the Lord but it can't change the fact taht these guys simply have no class.
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Date: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 08:56:23 (EDT)
From: catweasel
Email: Jim?Class?Mutually EXclusive
To: Jim
Subject: No, it wasn't CD
Message:
But Jim,oracle of sophistication and self effacement,I can do the same thing, pick out some of the more 'interesting posts' over here and then become the oracle of your insanity over there. Face it Jim anywhere but here your just another loser.Big name attraction that you are here in real life ,face to face your just a wimp.You fit in well here,got the right blend of malice and stupidity.See, its easy to be an ex like Jim,just be abusive and condescending,hey Ill fit in well here,do you think I might be a wild parody of some one else [no not him ,he wouldnt waste his time ]Jim ,the mighty EX,what a winner!!!
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Date: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 09:24:03 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: catweasel
Subject: You're in the minority
Message:
Catweasel,

You have an inaccurate view of the people on this forum. I came here in January after 25 years as a premie, and found so many of my concerns mirrored here. I like Jim because of the clarity of his thought, although I disagree with him on the interpretation of 'spiritual' experiences. However, reading this forum has helped me find a more objective way of viewing those experiences.

I have only met one other ex-premie from this forum, and found him charming and intelligent. Most other exes who post here come across as reasonable, caring, human beings. Some occasionally allow their frustration with premies' postings to boil over into anger, but on most occasions I find I am sympathetic to such responses.

Your recent postings have seriously degenerated into irrational vitriol. If you really are a premie, you are becoming a poor mirror of your master's teachings. Strangely, that seems to be a common event when premies post here.

If you attempt rational discourse, valued the world over amongst intelligent people, you will find that most people here will treat you with repect. Continue as you are, and I believe you will contribute to your master's demise.

John.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:38:21 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: birthdays WITHOUT astrology :)
Message:
Hi everyone -
Someone e-mailed me and asked if I would post a list of people's birthdays so that other people could add their own if they wanted to. (Be careful, though, because it's likely that Robyn or I or even someone else will post a Happy Birthday message on your birthday!) Anyway, here are the birthdays I remember - let me know if there are any additions (or inaccuracies.) Robyn probably knows more of them than I do.

Helen - January 4
Selene - February 19 (or 18th?)
Mickey - April 19
Bobby - April 23
Katie - May 11
CD - May 31
Robyn - June 2
L - June 5
AJW - June 10
Bill (bb) - July 9
eb - July 10
Gail AND RT - July 16
Miloochie - July 29
HALIP (happy and living in Paris) - September 11
Sir David - November 8
Jim - November 14
Nigel - November 30
JW - December 24
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:50:56 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 25th June 1953 (nt)
Message:
Just to get the birthday greetings....
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:58:57 (EDT)
From: starla
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hey! astrology can be a hoot!
Message:
also, dont fergit, rawats birhtday is dec 10!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:12:39 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 29 June (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:32:03 (EDT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 9 April (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:58:45 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: birthdays WITHOUT astrology :)
Message:
I thought I wasn't going to post my birthday because some premie would recognize it then I realized no-one knew or cared about my birthday only that birthday December 10th. I even used the year I received k for my bank card number.

My birthday is May 27th 1949. 50 years young next month. Another Gemini finally grew up!

Any premie reading this will say, Ah yes, Gemini's, fickle minds you know!

The other thing premies don't know is that I nearly died on the way back from visiting m in Copenhagan in the 70's. I fell asleep with pain on the ferry and kept premies waiting in a coach (u.k. word for bus)for hours while they waited for the ferry to return to Copenhagen and back again. There were some livid premies glaring at me when I finally arrived!

Anyone here on that bus? I put myself in hospital as soon as I arrived at the White Cliffs of Dover. Alone. I always remember how blissed out I was in that hospital. Strange Days.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:14:48 (EDT)
From: Traveler
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: birthdays WITHOUT astrology :)
Message:
'Any premie reading this will say, Ah yes, Gemini's, fickle minds you know!'

Not every premie.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 01:33:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 15th March - The Ides
Message:
Beware the Ides of March
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 07:14:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Guess!
Message:
I was born the same day as Beethoven (a couple of hundred years later of course). Anybody know what day that is?
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:20:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Guess!
Message:
Dear Jerry,
December 17, 1770
Of course a couple hundred years later. :)
I am not pleased to say that the only famous person I know of born on the same day and I believe the same year is Jerry Mathers from Leave It To Beaver fame, Yikes!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 15:50:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Wrong!
Message:
But close. I, and Ludwig, were born December 16th.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 17:37:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Wrong!
Message:
Dear Jerry,
Damn! That's what I get for being cocky! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 09:50:53 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Birthdays
Message:
Hey Katie hope all is well with you Sept 17th is mine of the year 1952..talk to you soonPeace...love..david
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:11:47 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david m
Subject: Birthdays
Message:
Dear David,
Jade's birthday is 9/16/81! I just love it! Thinking of you and wishing you the best.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:18:40 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, take note!
Message:
Hi Robyn -
I hope you're keeping track of all these birthdays! You ain't the Birthday Goddess for nothing, girl...

Love,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:29:47 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: July 29 (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:32:27 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Robyn, take note!
Message:
Dear Katie,
That is to funny, as I sit here at work with a big envelop recording all the birthdays and then to see your post! :)
Hey, my computer had the Cherynobal virus! I lost all my email addresses as I had them in a word file since my experience with an email hacker. In that file were also lots of little quotes like Nigel's that I keep reposting and which I still thankfully remember but the rest...out of sight out of mind! Damn!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:41:10 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: egad!-elanvital.org.
Message:
and also,
visionsinternational.org.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:48:25 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: keeping in touch-april99
Message:
'the time you give to knowledge comes back as joy'
'The time you give to the master comes back as wisdumb'
As evidenced by enjoyinglife.org!

'the ultimate gift is the one that brings me the ultimate joy'
Sure sounds like that is what Joan Apter experiences.

'If I can only slow down enough in life to recognise the difference between what changes and what doesnt change,
I'll be in good shape'
(anyone care to translate?)

By the way, how many cookies does THIS site stick on us?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 17:42:54 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
Apparently with K lite the 'Slave Market' gets a public thank you!

The work performed by Visions is made possible by the kind efforts of volunteers.

We want to take this opportunity to say thank you.

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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 18:09:25 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mary
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
I can't believe they charge $5.00 for the 'introductory package' which consists of a 6-minute video, which is apparently for people hearing about all this for the first time. Whatever happened to this knowledge being free? What a rip off. Who was it saying sometime ago that M would come to the internet when he figured out how to make money off of it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:06:37 (EDT)
From: biff
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
With my limited knowledge of video production costs I really don't think visions is making any money out of these $5 videos. In fact sometimes using odd length or non-standard tapes (as opposed to a standard T-120 2 hour tape)can actually cost the producer more then using a regular length tape. Although visions probably gets a good deal on these odd length tapes due to the relatively large quantities that I assume they purchase, I really think that this $5 price is probably a break even kind of thing and that it's as close as they could get to 'free' without subsidizing them.

I see no big $ being made. And I don't think that M sees any revenue from visions personally, my understanding is that visions profit (if there is any) goes back into visions.

His personal finances are really none of my business but I don't believe he benefits financially from visions.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:33:28 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Hey biff
Message:
Well, biff, glad that you share your 'beliefs' about M's finances. But then you don't know anything about this, other than your beliefs, because Maharaji never discloses anything about his finances, does he. Have you ever seen M or any of these organizations share financial information, like most other reputable non-profit organizations do?

And I completley disagree that you can't make money off $5 videos that are only 6 minutes long. You can get tapes for about $.25 and the cost to copy hundreds of them can't be much, especially if you are using 'volunteer' labor. I doubt this is a big money-maker, but isn't this what all those donations are supposed to be going for? To do propogation? If so, why is there any charge at all?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:55:48 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW
Message:
In addition to your points, the 5$ tape is a come on to
join the cult and give and give your brain, time, money
and alligience so that after 30 years you can make a
post like Joan Apter did on elk. The one Jim posted here
down below.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:08:12 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: K-Lite Drive Through
Message:
Diss the videos. I think Mahahaharaji should set up a contract with McDonalds to hand K-lite videos at drive through windows.

Sqwauck, Shsdhhs... May I take your order, sir?

Uh, yeah give me a Big Mac, two cokes, and a K-lite to go.

Sqwauck, Shsdhhs... Sir, we're running a special today where you can get a complete Happy Experience by ordering all 4 techniques.

Yeah, Yeah.... whatever.

Sqwauck, Shsdhhs Sir, that will be $8.99 plus tax at the second window. Thank You, and have a NICE day.

Mary
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:39:07 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: K-Lite Drive Through
Message:
If it's anything like the drive through's here, you have to
check the technique bag to make sure you got four!
The hire glassy eyed smiling insincere worker bees (at least they
are paid!).

Tonight I happened to drive past a house that one of my sisters
lived in during the seventies. My five sisters had a lot of events
that didnt fit into the rawat calendar. He WAS the insistent lord,
so, there was no getting around his demands, the carrot was
so dang ultimate, and he was SO brazen in his playing god.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 14:44:50 (EDT)
From: biff
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey bill
Message:
Fair enough.

Actually I was also thinking of the cost of the video packaging, and the labor involved. However I didn't remind myself that the labor may actually represent no cost at all.

In terms of the tape cost, you may also be right about .25 cents. My opinion was based on personal experience of having been involved in a project where we were looking to transfer film to video ourselves and were surprised that the standard tapes would have been cheaper to use then an odd length. That was years ago so maybe it's different now or maybe the people we were dealing with were thieves.

p.s.- Thank you for responding to what I wrote without being insulting or condescending. And I'm not patronizing you here either, I know that my post may have pissed you off yet you didn't get rude. I appreciate that.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:02:42 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
Hi Biff,

His personal finances are really none of my business but I don't believe he benefits financially from visions.

I completely disagree with your statement above. It is VERY obvious that from 1972 on Maharaji, and soon after the greatest 'Material Girl' of all time, Marolyn , as well as special high profile friends set up a well honed covert operation to defraud premies of talent, rites of passage, and of utmost importance to them money to make their California dreams come true.

He and his family and his friends are some of the most avaricious individuals to span the globe. X/3 has proof of the depths of moral depravity Maharaji, Marolyn, the midwife who delivered their offspring, and Randy P would go to to protect their empire. (i.e. covering up for pedophiles: Jagdeo, Raphael, and others known only to them)

By the by, do you know where the white, plastic, 5 gallon painters buckets full of premies money and jewelry went after the festival in London circa 73?

Have a nice delusion,
Mary
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:56:25 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: Advertising
Message:
I was just looking at my Enjoyinglife.org t-shirt that I got free with my last video order and thinking about statements M has made many times about his refusal to advertise. Well, if giving away t
shirts that people wear in public with a web address about one's product (Knowledge) isn't advertising, than what is it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
From: Traveler
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
Some local communities have tape libraries with videos and audios available on loan.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 09:57:44 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Traveler
Subject: visionsinternational.org
Message:
Some local communities have tape libraries with videos and audios available on loan.
Yes and they charge handsomely for such a 'loan'.
Prior to my departure from the cult in August of 98, you'd have to pay $5 for a video loan in Montreal and $10 in Toronto.
Of course you could always plead poverty and perhaps get one loaned for free depending on your community, but who da hell needs the embarassment?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:14:26 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: biff
Subject: Legacy of Larceny
Message:
I really think that this $5 price is probably a break even kind of thing and that it's as close as they could get to 'free' without subsidizing them.
Biff, what da fuck do you know?
What if the $5'special intro promo' is nothing more than a situation of inventory dumping?
Can you guarantee us that isn't?
Face it Biffy,Visions prices have been consistently going down beginning with the very earliest internet focus on m, and more recently we've seen Visions slash their prices by 40% because of the crippling effect ex premie.org has had on its sales, along with the active premie participation in elan vital and its sponsored events (financial and otherwise)
Now, tell me this genius, if the break even point IS IN FACT $5 as you suggest, why was a video such as the 6 min. video being offered in this promo, being sold for $20 back in 95?... ...constituting still more larceny in m's ever evolving LEGACY OF LARCENY.? Hm?
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:05:32 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: get 'em while they're hot!
Message:
sold for $20 back in 95?...

hmmm, so in 2003 maybe they'll be paying me $20 to watch them...i can see that...joan apter and etc. can finance paying people to watch videos because this will bring them that opportunity to enjoy life with knowledge...hmmm...how about a nice market research approach...pay people $25 to watch an introductory video. Prescreen questions include disclosure of yearly income and amount of thirst.

--victoria
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 22:36:11 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: I knew it!
Message:
I knew that something was brewing. Sheeeit! Them thar are might slick webpages. Do a little spamming on the search engines and we is buried like cat buries its own doo-doo.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 10:01:38 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: I knew it!
Message:
Hi Roger,

The activity of EV etal just proves we've gotten their goat somewhere along the threads.

We need to narrow down which bothers them more:

1. Corporate Shenanigans
2. Protecting Known Pedophiles

Hmmmmmm.....

Mary M
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:04:30 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: I knew it!
Message:
What I'd like to know is how many people will come to Knowledge via the Internet. How many people are on a spiritual quest at this point in time. Maybe there should be a special section on amazon.com for gurus.

On one of the new sites is a map of the US and you can click on every state to find a schedule for introductory programs. Most states have none. Without checking all 50 states I checked some of the usual suspects and the showing is rather thin.

Maharaji, nobody wants your crappy knowledge anymore. Nobody wants you anymore.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:12:05 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: I knew it!
Message:
Yikes, and they're having one tonight right in my neighborhood!!! Selfish little me only thought to look in my own home state. Maybe I should get some ex-premie.org cards printed up and pass them out, if they think they can propogate in the fastest growing county in the U.S. !!!!

Victoria

P.S. Seriously, though, do you think there is something I could do...I mean, 10 years from now, that's my son they're trying to reel in! (There I go thinking selfishly again...but it does get me off my chair, you know what I mean.) {;o)
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:22:16 (EDT)
From: victoria
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: egad!-elanvital.org.
Message:
The Knowledge Maharaji offers includes four techniques that enable those who are interested to connect to an inner experience of enjoyment.

Egad! indeed! I thought we were connecting to an inner experience of divinity--bliss--precognitive infancy--whatever!

But just ENJOYMENT now? Do they still give the reins of their lives??? and for a mere 'enjoyment' -- I think more superlatives are in order if they want to rein in more suckers.

Love,

victoria
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 12:44:29 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: crow
Subject: tamil ???
Message:
The Feeling of Life

'The desire to be content is inherent in every human being' —Maharaji

#570 $15.00 Language:
English
Spanish
Tamil


Where the hell do they speak TAMIL ?? I never heard of it, why not French or German ?? Because we are on to him, that's why!

P.s. they have a lot of nerve advertising this section as English, Spanish and Tamil...since this is the only video available in Tamil. I would be a little upset and skeptical if I were tamilese, tamilian, whatever.

P.s.s. Can we get ex-premie.org translated into Tamil alongside the Engish and French version?

P.p.s.s. I was hoping to buy some trinkets, do you think they will ever sell them online, or do I have to go to a program, er, festival, oops I mean 'event.'

Love,

Victoria
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:13:16 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: tamil ??? Yes
Message:
They speak Tamil in Shri Lanka (Ceylon), and south of India.

There are quite some communities of refugees, even here in France, and m tried to 'propagate' among these people 6 or 7 years ago.

K is really aimed at a lot of desperate people....
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 13:35:20 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: tamil - question
Message:
JM, the Tamil refugees did they not have the Big K before arriving coming to the west as a legacy of Shri Hans' work?

Or is that just a myth and Maharaji actually targets susceptible groups?
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 16:25:23 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek, & JM
Subject: tamil - question
Message:
Tamils: No, they hardly could have received the 'Raj Vidya' (big K) from Sri Hans. Tamils live in the extreme south and Sri Lanka, Sri Hans was active in the north, in Uttar Pradesh and Gahrwal.

Nice to have to chapters by Sri Hans on the net, BTW, Jean-Michel!
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 21:28:45 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: tamil - question
Message:
Yes, I was aware of the distance separation. Perhaps, Shri Hans walked across via a temporary land bridge accompanied by his monkey.

Again, we've seen Maharaji tend to his Indian premies in South Africa, Mauritius, other places, and now the refugee Tamils. They are either remnants of his father's legacy or easy picking.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:31:06 (EDT)
From: Ophelia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: West Coast CORN
Message:
Lena and Ophelia settled into the Satsang, Service, and Meditation routine West Coast style. These Los Angeles premies tended toward drama and exaggeration which irritated Lena who preferred stark realism to flashy, gag-me-with-a-spoon devotion. Night after night, they listened to darshan stories, some phenomenal and others merely trivial. Ophelia immediately fell into trance when she sat before the altar while Lena pondered her long, strange journey to the feet of the master.

One evening after Arti, as Lena smoked a cigarette outside while waiting for Ophelia to return to consciousness, she was approached by a stranger. Lust virtually oozed from his every pore. He attracted Lena immediately, almost hypnotizing her with his gorgeous blue eyes. His chest and arms were partially exposed by the tank top he wore--obviously a fitness buff. He smelled of
man, all man, and Lena wanted him.

'You shouldn't smoke, sweetie. It's bad for you.' He smiled as he reprimanded Lena gently. 'You're new around here, right? What's your name?'

Lena responded and felt her crotch becoming quite moist. She wondered if he could smell her scent.

'My name's Eddie,' the stranger offered. 'I don't live in the ashram because I experience Holy Name much better when I can share it with others. It really turns me on--all that breathing: in and out and in and out. Oh yeah, hmmm.' Eddie's eyes were closed and he beamed with orgasmic delight.

Eddie's line worked wonders to lift Lena's sagging libido. Unfortunately, before she could suggest that they retreat to some darkened area for a demonstration of his rendition of the Third Technique, Ophelia appeared. She eyed Eddie with suspicion and asked whether he had done a lot of acid in the 60's because he had holes in his aura. She saw a dark entity following Eddie who asked her not to reveal its presence. Ophelia agreed, but she turned to Lena and said, 'Let's go. Something is not right. We must leave now.'

Lena ignored Ophelia and continued flirting with the handsome Eddie. Oblivious to the sexual energy being exchanged, Ophelia followed her own advice and wandered home alone. Lena, meanwhile, was having the time of her life on her back in the bushes somewhere in downtown Santa Monica. Eddie knew more sexual positions than are contained in the Kama Sutra. Lena hesitated when he suggested that she tie him to a tree and whip him, but decided to play along and had a fine time torturing her new found friend.

The tables turned sometime after 3 am when Lena found herself in a dog collar, and Eddie was attempting to earn money by selling her services to passing motorists. She felt so lonely and so miserable. Earlier in the evening, Eddie had whispered such sweet, kind, loving sentiments. He knew how to bring her to orgasm using only his words. And now it had come to this. Cold and miserable, Lena resigned herself to serving him until she could find a way to escape.

Though a rather unlikely savior, Ophelia appeared on the scene looking for an all-night falafel shop. Seeing Lena tied up to a tree, Ophelia ascertained that something beyond her ken was unfolding. She untied Lena and gave her a jacket to keep warm. Lena's purse lay a few feet away, and Ophelia moved to retrieve it. As she lifted it, a small gun fell out and scared Ophelia (who was sensitive to firearms). Gingerly, Ophelia picked up the gun right at the same moment that Eddie showed up with a customer. Seeing Lena untied, he shouted, 'Hey, what's going on here?'

Shocked, Ophelia whipped around and shot Eddie through the heart. The customer ran, and Lena's jaw dropped as she alternately stared down at dead Eddie and up at shocked Ophelia. 'Quick, we've got to hide the body!' Lena whispered loudly.

'Oh fuck!' Screamed Ophelia. 'Shit, now look what I've done. My karma is going to suck big time. Oh Hell!' She melted to the ground in shock and self-pity.

Meanwhile, Lena searched the area and found a hiding place for the body: the back door of a computer software company was open. Lena and Ophelia dragged Eddie into the store and perched him up in a chair in front of a computer. Lena turned on the computer which immediately launched a pornographic screensaver that changed pictures every few minutes. Lena smiled and deemed the situation appropriate. Then, she and Ophelia high-tailed it back to their apartment.

Ophelia asked Lena if she thought Maharaji knew what they had done. Lena smiled and
said she hoped so. After all, he is the omniscient Lord of the Universe. Lena reassured Ophelia, Maharaji would understand and forgive them. Ophelia asked if Lena knew this for sure, and Lena hugged Ophelia and said, 'Hey, you saved my life again.'

'Again?' Ophelia was puzzled.

'Oh nevermind. Just go to sleep. We get to do service at the residence tomorrow. Good night, love.'

'Good night,' Ophelia smiled and slept in innocence and bliss.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:35:25 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New old stuff on my website
Message:
Two more chapters from the old book 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj' published by DLM/EV in the late 60s now online!

As I Saw Maharaji

and

Shri Hans Ji Maharaj - A Divine Personality

A good part of my initial conditioning.
Some chapters are not online yet, I'll take care of them when time permits....
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:01:07 (EDT)
From: Jean_Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And one more chapter today!
Message:
And one more chapter of the old secret Holy Book for everybody to read:

Shri Maharaj Ji on the Gita

Some excerpts:

The story of King Janak and Ashtavakra (in full).

'Both good actions and bad actions bind the individual. After enjoying the fruits of good actions in what may be called heaven, one has to return to the earthly world again. For our bad actions we must suffer punishment. One is called the golden chain while the other is called the iron chain. Just as a dirty cloth cannot be cleaned by washing it in dirty water, so actions and their fruits cannot be annulled by performing more actions. It is only through the performance of actions while focussing one's mind on the Avyakt Akshar (unmanifest Word) that one can save himself from the consequences of actions. Without the grace of a teacher there is no true knowledge, Without True Knowledge there is no salvation for the Jiva.

Persons dominated by animal nature believe that the pleasures of the senses are the highest type of enjoyments and do not recognise any higher type of pleasure worth living for. They never think of absolute truth in their own life nor do they feel an urge to know God and worship Him. Such people never understand the greatness of a Mahapurusha. They are not more than animals who waste their precious human life in the pursuit of sensuous pleasure. The human body is the means for realising the Divinity, but foolish are those, who waste it for the pleasures of the senses.

Most people do not consider the importance of virtue or sin. They are enslaved by the senses when they perform actions and thus remain involved in the sorrows and miseries that result from those actions. A true devotee, however, does not desire to enjoy the worldly pleasures and develops an aversion for them, due to an understanding of their true nature. Those who are settled in the self, behave humanly towards all without a desire for profit or prestige and perform actions which are in the interest of all.

This state of mind cannot be achieved without meditation. Even those engaged in the practice of the Holy Name may think that they have relinquished all passions and sensual pleasures, but desire for them still lurks in the subconscious mind. If kindled, this can flare up into a great fire and do considerable damage. That is why constant vigilance concerning the worldly pleasures must always be practised. Just as the cut branches of a tree may sprout again so the submerged desires rise from the sub-conscious to the conscious if given incentive. Therefore, the attractions of the world must be renounced with a determined mind. Just as one drop of poison is sufficient to kill a man, so even an iota of passion can undo all the progress attained from previous efforts. If we keep the mental tendencies immersed in yoga then even the desires for sense pleasure may gradually die.

There is a prevalent point of view today that since human beings have different temperaments and natures they can follow different methods which are best suited to them in order to realise God. But this is an erroneous idea based on false understanding of scriptures. When the ultimate objective is to realize the all-permeating God, which is one for all how can there be different methods to reach it ? It is an inward path, it is meditation on the unmanifest Word of God, or focussing the mind on the self-effulgent light. The way of the Word leads to the realisation of God. If we do not go inward to find God we shall never find Him. One who does not know the inward path only performs external modes of worship without controlling the mind is a hypocrite. True devotion needs no outward signs, neither a tilak on the forehead nor wearing saffron clothes.

It is only by the practice of Raj Vidya that a seeker of truth attains a balanced frame of mind and becomes a non-doer. Thus, a realised soul while touching, smelling, eating and speaking is not involved in the preception of the sense objects. Only the senses play in the sense objects. The devotee remains as a spectator. The yogi, while sitting in 'the frame with nine gates' is merged with God and sees the world as a mere spectator. Neither good nor bad actions bind him. The meditation on the Holy Name has more power to destroy sins than sins have to destroy man. After all, why do we meditate ? If meditation is a remedy or a treatment to be followed for a cure of a particular malady of mind we must see for ourselves whether we are cured of illness or not. If we are not cured, then something is wrong with our mode of devotion. Therefore, know the true Name, which will cure the malady of mind.'


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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 12:54:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean_Michel
Subject: And one more again today
Message:
The Essence of the Gita Extracted by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj

I guess this is more or less the root of all of m's theories....

Enjoy!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 10:29:10 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Runamok & All
Message:
Hi Runamok,

Somewhere in the last few days I had posted an inquiry whether or not Joan Apter worked for a company called:

AURORA NATIONAL LIFE ASSURANCE

Please let me know if you can as this would be a fun corporate control by M to expose. If not, does anybody know the name of the Insurance Company?

Thanks,
Mary M
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:15:47 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Runamok & All
Message:
What I know is what someone posted here, that she sells insurance to PAMs and ex-ashram types who are on the scene. Sounds like a sweet setup to me and I'm sure M would rate her worth setting up for biz. Sorry, but I'm sure someone has more info than me.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 03:13:31 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The webpage that died
Message:
My sources from within the Marble Palace in Malibu have provided me some early work done on www.maharaji.org that died on the cutting floor.

Welcome to Maharaji's Monkey Trap.

Warning - This is slower than the real thing (110k)

Don't forget to try to pluck the jewel within the jar by clicking on the light.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 09:34:05 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Registering on search engines
Message:
Being in the process of registering my web-site on some search engines, I've discovered that ex-premie.org is not registered in various search engines.

I've also discovered that quite some premies advertise m's sites on their homepage, with a link to maharaji.org and elk.

Don't they have some sort of 'cult watch' categories?

They do have it in Yahoo.fr ....
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:33:25 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Registering on search engines
Message:
That's interesting Jean-Michel and I'll look into the British Yahoo to see if we have a cult watch too. Your web site is doing well on AltaVista, by the way and is within the first ten on the index (by searching 'Maharaji') although it is surrounded on all sides by Margarini's fantastic poetry.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 03:58:04 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Registering on search engines
Message:
I guess the only difference between my site and ex-premie.org English is that it's been registered for a long time on the Yahoo! pages/search engine in the French cult watch section. I've also registered it on another French search engine (Voila) where they have that sort of section.

I've also gotten links from other major French cult watch sites.

The meta-tags are almost identical.

I wonder where Rawat would register his: cults? religions? hindu? new-age? Still wondering!

Do you know of other search sites having that sort of sections, like Yahoo does?
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 05:43:33 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Registering on search engines
Message:
There are many but I think Yahoo is the biggest and the one embedded into most people's browsers. I'll see if I can get my 'Truth' pages on Yahoo. The smaller search engines might not be worth it.

I think that Maharaji's web pages are splattered all over the AltaVista 'Maharaji' index because of the sheer wieght of spamming. I reckon that somebody has spammed thousands of URLs to the search engine and many more than just a few hundred. Is there software that can do this? I'd be interested to find out.

Incidentally, there is someone else who is spamming the Maharaji drivel by copying the stuff off Maharaji's site and putting it on his own site and registering it with AltaVista. That's the case if maharaji.ch is a different domain than maharaji.org. Unless it's just another ruse by Maharaji to have two websites with exactly the same stuff on but at different domains.

Or does maharaji.ch mean it's still maharaji.org???
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 11:23:07 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Registering ex-premie.org?
Message:
on Yahoo!

was also my idea.

Do you know of an appropriate section?

Is it already registered?

Brian?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 21:07:37 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
The last week I've been having doubts on and off whether I am right in my new path as an ex. I have been doing reality testing with my husband and this helps. There is a story behind him I'll share some day, but don't feel comfortable yet. Bascially, he knows the K Lite trip, but not the heavy stuff. I've recently told him the 'heavy' stuff (devotion, darshan, etc) and now he thinks I'm in the right (being an ex), but said the stuff about making money off K doesn't bother him because he just assumed it all along so it was no let down. It's weird how one's perspective on the situation is so different based on what they've been exposed to, just as I have a different perspective than many of y'all due to avoiding the major lifestyle changing stuff. Basically, I think I have much less to be angry about personally and I can't imagine a K Lite premie having anything to be angry about unless they contribute major amounts of money.

Anyway, reading here helps me pull back into reality, but I can't help but wonder if any of y'all have doubts spring up at times and how they're handled. Feedback?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 21:16:03 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
So what color are you painting your bedroom? These are the things that matter. You will have to live in that room.

I would pull a 'M' and make a serious connection ther ebut hell with it. Denise, I started posting here in Jan. of 98. After the LV 97 thing. I had had it!
It wasn't the early stuff in particular that did my last drip exit stuff for me. It was how it had turned out and seeing how the premies were treating each other, treating ME.
K lite vs the old days isn't the issue. And you need to make your own decisions. There is or can be a 'pack mentality' here that I have come to really dislike. Oh this is going to make me popular!
But there is also support, some real good stuff. I don't frankly give a fuck about M except I wish he would stop. That is my reason for accepting the anger I read here and the other so called Negartive stuff. I do want him to retire. Christ he's made enough money and he isn't doing all that much good.
And a lot of people have a right to feel they were ripped off and hurt. I was, but I probably would have been anyway, but someone or smething else. but it was M and his dumb shit premie thing.
So....

Love you , selene - feed back coming from the spin cycle last load.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:39:34 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Denise,
I've been out for longer than I was,in the bad old days. I'm completely convinced M is causing damage to the world, not helping in some minimal way. If he's changed his tune it's because he can't get away with the old crap. (He's not going to establish peace on earth and doesn't want to pretend that he will anymore.)

The thread started below by AJW has a lot of discussion of this. It's tempting to be forgiving and conciliatory to someone you perceived at the time as helpful. For me, it's strictly a rational choice to walk away from an abusive situation where the abusive party had only a marginal knowledge of my existence. It's our own commitment that was profound and well-intentioned. It's Miragey's to take something potentially universal and defile it into a tool of his own hustle.

I saw M a couple of times shortly after leaving, almost stumbling into (very small) programs twice in the 80's. Yeah, there's a seductive quality, but I don't really want to be the slave of some master who doesn't care about my personal safety, much less my dreams as a human.

The first program, I almost challenged him, but that was a heavy ballgame and I didn't feel like playing. The second was a later confirmation that I had done the right thing. I saw zombie-like creatures dragging themselves in and out of the tiny auditorium which remained unfilled, the same people who had been doing the same thing 5 and 10 years earlier. Although they had no financial security whatsoever, they continued living from program to program. I rushed out before I was accosted for living accomodations, food, money, etcetera. (I think that was '85.) 'That beautiful feeling' may have had some nostalgic appeal, but when the lights came on the place was crawling with zombies. There was no way around it.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 23:19:33 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
My doubt of the day was how come we have felt sooooo much grace from someone we are portraying as a monster?
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 01:35:46 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Isnt it not only about ourselves, but how the virus is living in the premies who are emotional zombies.
Of course one could argue that K is what one makes of it- but M is supporting the dysfuctional living systems by hard sell Hindu approach to peace within.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:20:52 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Liz
Subject: Expremie Doubts Liz
Message:
Dear Liz,
'how come we have felt sooooo much grace from someone we are portraying as a monster?'

Oh dear, you hopefully can see yourself as the creator of any feelings you have, feelings of grace, love, hate, hurt, anger. If there is a situation that is exactly the same in everyway but your mood, you know your mood would be enough to change the way the situation plays out. Maybe I am nuts but I think this is basic logic. I am going through a bit of something lately and I can plainly see that my feelings change as to my mood and time of day.
M has nothing to do with what any premie felt or feels. It is the POWER of thier own MINDS that gives them the feeling, the experience the enjoyment in thier lives. -snicker
So you see, I believe that it doesn't matter if M is a moster or a door mouse, that has nothing to do with why we feel anything although I strongly believe he should be accountable for being a con man and a theif and all the rest. Even those of us that were hurt, accepted surrendering themselves to GOD and were willing to sacrifice themselves. Would their pain have been more appropriate if he were GOD. Not to me!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 00:06:35 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Expremie Doubts Robyn
Message:
Would their pain have been more appropriate if he were GOD. Not to me!

Go Robyn! This one goes right alongside the 'I don't care if he is a fraud, I'm still following him all the way to hell!' attitude discussed here a week or 2 ago. It's true what you say, Robyn.

Or what's a Heaven for?

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 04:00:37 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Hi Denise

'The last week I've been having doubts on and off whether I am right in my new path as an ex. '

I'm not sure that 'becoming an ex' is a 'new path'. (Who gave you(us) the whole idea of a 'path'?)It is more of a freeing of oneself from false beliefs/expectations and releasing oneself from commitment to a clearly ultra-dishonest human being, who justifies himself by permeating the belief that he is not bound by any rules because of who he is.
He and his saints used to justify this by telling the story of when Guru Nanak was seen by one of his devotees eating a fish. When the devotee confronted him saying 'How come I can't eat fish?', Nanak pulled the fish from his stomach out thru his mouth and it was alive. Nanak said to the devotee 'When you can do this you can eat fish'. This story was fed to premies and aspirants all thru the 70s(at least) and certainly partially helped to form the foundation to this 'not critising the Perfect Master's private life' thing. Also gurucharanand used to tell people not to get too close to the PM personally as it can be really painful.
The subtext here from M is 'I can do what I fuckingwell want, so fuck you'.

'.........but said the stuff about making money off K doesn't bother him because he just assumed it all along so it was no let down. '

I'm not sure why you have put this in. Are you just saying your husband thinks it's ok to make money from K? Do YOU think it's ok?(rhetorical question).

'Basically, I think I have much less to be angry about personally and I can't imagine a K Lite premie having anything to be angry about unless they contribute major amounts of money.'

If these 'K-lite premies' are not bothered by M's behaviour to others then they are just as narcissistic as he is. Somehow they justify all the 'worldly' stuff like his protection of Jagdeo and Padarthanand, as ok because 'that is not knowledge'. Whether they realise it or not they are approving these peoples behaviour by not questioning it. Their silence is very loud.

Anyway have you tried writing M a letter or emailing him at his new website to express your doubts?

Jethro
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 17:39:15 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Haven't tried emailing M with my doubts, but seriously considered it when I was 'on the fence' and wanted answers that only he could give me. I knew he wouldn't answer, so I didn't bother.

I don't know why I threw the part in about my husband not caring about the money-making, except that it shocked me that he viewed things so differently. He just views M as a teacher who is the head of a big organization that he started and who gets donations to keep the organization going, from which he draws a big salary, which is normal in that situation. In other words, he sees him as a good businessman, the idea that M is the Lord is ludicris (sp?) to him. To me, M making all this money that was donated for another purpose really bothers me. (I wouldn't have had a problem donating a gift of money directly for my Master's living expenses, as long as it was presented as such. In fact, it probably would have made me feel good to do so.) To my husband, he seems to see M as no different than any other CEO of a charitable organization such as the Red Cross or Salvation Army. That is the image I think M wants to portray at this time. What is presented appears very innocuous. It just blows me away there are people who view it in that light.

Oh, thanks for the feedback.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:08:34 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
.) To my husband, he seems to see M as no different than any other CEO of a charitable organization such as the Red Cross or Salvation Army. That is the image I think M wants to portray at this time
Don't worry Denise, your husband is a fool and m won't get away with it.
BTW Denise, nice of you to take 4 months to tell us that your husband has k.
The way you presented yourself, I would say that most of us were led to believe that he wasn't a pwk.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 09:36:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Denise,

I really don't have any doubts about Maharaji being a fraud. In fact, I'm more convinced now than ever. Will that turn around? To be truthful, I couldn't tell you. I wonder about myself. I relied so heavily on Maharaji to be THE ANSWER in my life for no good reason other than I needed an answer and he and enough people convinced me he was it (even though I never had a good reason for believing this was so). I still get perplexed by people who say they've found their answer by him. For all I know, they have. They'd know better than me, I guess .

It's good that you're expressing your doubts. Apparently, you really got a lot out of Knowledge. Maybe you're suffering from the 'where do I go from here' syndrome? Now that M isn't who you thought he was, what are your options? This is my problem. I've always been a loner. Now that M is out of my life it's pretty much me, myself, and I. No God, no master. Just me in the big bad world that serves no purpose whatsoever. What a drag. But that's the way I see it. Maybe I'll hook up with somebody and have babies. I don't know. I guess there's always something to do.

I hope you find the answers you're looking for. One thing I know that always helps is when it gets to heavy, I just say 'fuck it'. What does it matter anyway? It's not the end of the world.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:05:08 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jerry & Liz
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
I guess I've already gone through the 'where do I go from here?' phase and decided to keep practicing K by myself and enjoy.

Liz, re: your doubt about feeling grace, I don't know. I can't seem to get Jean-Michael's post a few days ago out of my mind related to that issue. It was in the believing M is God thread and his post was something to the effect of 'Not belief, experience'. Basically he stated that he experienced M as God or the living Lord for 25 years. That was very strong for me. I just can't imagine how one could feel that and leave. I've been meaning to email him about it, but haven't yet. My problem is similar in that M's satsangs take me inside and induce the experiene of holy name and he does say things I need to hear a lot of the time. I don't know if it's just brainwashing, but I do feel love inside many times when I hear him speak, though not necessarily towards him. I just couldn't reconcoil this experience with his outer life. I've wondered whether the problem is that we've all thought too much of him and have mistaken concepts of what a Master should be and maybe he is just supposed to be a simple messenger that makes mistakes like the rest of us. (I do realize he's made himself out to be so much more than that in the past).

So basically, for those of us with a good experience of K or M or both, are we supposed to deny that, just as we had denied doubts about him when we were active devotees?
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 19:38:06 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
I guess I've already gone through the 'where do I go from here?' phase and decided to keep practicing K by myself and enjoy.

That was fast. Actually, from the doubts you've expressed, you haven't really. For me, giving up M is letting go of my own illusions, but the way you talk it sounds like you're giving up something real and beautiful. And it sounds like you haven't really decided if you're going to.

If M was really something neccesary in my life, I wouldn't give him up. If I couldn't be happy without him, I'd still be a premie. (Actually, I don't really know if I CAN be happier without him. I just figure I couldn't be more miserable, so fuck it, I'd rather be that way on my own). Anyway, I have no idea what you got/get from Maharaji. I'd just hate to think, that whatever it is, you can't have it without him.

I wish you well, Denise. I hope you figure it out in time. I'm sure you will. You'll make whatever the right choice for you is. Good luck.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:52:17 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: To Denise
Message:
'So basically, for those of us with a good experience of K or M or both, are we supposed to deny that, just as we had denied doubts about him when we were active devotees? '

Denise, I can honestly say that all the 'great experiences' I had when I followed M, I do still have.....except that I just accept it as my life experience and I have understood that it's nothing to do with M or anyone else. The only difference is that my mind is now free of an imposed belief system and my whole being can now breathe. I was really scared at first of kicking M out of my life because I believed he was the source and that all my love should go to him and only him.
I now understand that any love I have I can give to whoever I wish to.....and that is the greatest knowledge to have.

Take care Jethro
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:56:06 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Denise
Message:
Good for you Jethro.
I am really working on that one, seeing those good experiences as part of your life and not coming fro M or K is a big breakthrough.

One thing that has helped me is to realize that the 'high' I used to get came from believing M was somehow more in touch with something, able to give me some contact high or whatever. And I know deep down I didn't believe it, that's why I always felt coflict at events.

I was really moody today, actually did my own
version of meditationa and it felt as good or valid as any M came up with no matter which freaking order it was supposed to be done it.
Hey off topic, tell Hamzen I got the tapes and a great big hug
and kiss for him. I'll try emailing him but he has been offline.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 15:47:05 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: To Selene-OT
Message:
Selene, I;ll pass on your mesage to Hamzen, He;s also made me some tapes,,,really good stuff.
Love from Jethro
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 16:07:51 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Jethro-OT
Message:
Thanks. Wish he were on line more. His timing was perfect, and
I would like to reimburse for postage. Oh well, he can email me.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 23:40:58 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
So basically, for those of us with a good experience of K or M or both, are we supposed to deny that, just as we had denied doubts about him when we were active devotees?

I don't deny that I had good experiences with k and m. But I think that the biggest high was feeling how lucky i was to be a devotee of the living lord. So, now that I realize he is a fraud, that sort of negates those feelings...it's not a denial of those experiences, it just makes me a fool. I was innocent, though, coming to him and leaving also. I gave m plenty of chances to manifest his godness, I expressed my needs and fully experienced the k and the also the need for more depth. I think on the superficial level, the whole trip was a lot more fun. You know, it was always blissful to sit around with a bunch of aspirants and tell darshan stories...but not always so blissful scrounging up the cash to get to the lotus feet. When bad things happened around me, it was good to be able to disconnect from it, since it was all maya anyway ... all illusion. Really kind of childlike, reminds me of when my mom would tell me to think of Santa Claus when I woke up with a bad dream...everything is going to be all right.

Love,

Victoria

P.S. Your posts are very thought-provoking and interesting, thank you for posting.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 00:06:26 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Confirmations
Message:
I thought I would mention in this thread:

I had incredible experiences in meditation, especially toward the end of my tenure as a premie. In fact, as I became determined to apply myself to meditation and my experience unfolded I became increasingly disenchanted with M.

The more I experienced in meditation the more M's indifferent attitude to his mass of followers affected me. He didn't have to be cold and unfeeling in the name of spirituality. There really is no direct correlation between a reckless disregard for your followers' lives and your own supposed heights as a master.

As far as there being such a difference between what premies now and then went thru, I really doubt it is as totally conclusive as you imply it is. Sure there's a difference, but it's still the same (dishonest) person at the top.

I also am not clear about one thing from reading your posts Denise. Is your husband a premie? If so, is he still in or what? I'm not surprised at his lack of surprise at M's money (because it is kind of obvious).

Most of us are overjoyed at leaving Miragey. Some of us, like me, are overjoyed at finding other exes after years of rejecting M. A thread entitled 'Expremie doubts' raises some doubts but not about being an ex-premie. It had been well over a decade for many of us before we found each other on this website or its predecessors.

Do you think, then, that leaving Miragey is easier for someone who has been with him more recently? I think you underestimate the con game at work. More recent 'practitioners' are made to feel as obligated as ever if not in as specific and as specifically demeaning ways (and hence the onslaught of mindless spamming idiots and other more retorical spammers who are premies). M would have to actually retract his past statements for there to be the significant change that you claim to see, but he'd rather spread blame anywhere but on himself.

If you want to follow a megalomaniac like M it's your own biz, but the whole thing about how loving it felt and all of that.. YUCK! If that really makes you doubt your exness, perhaps the jury isnt in yet.

Have you ever heard Manson or Jim Jones on tape? Very compelling. Seductive. Fascinating...

But I know I don't want to be there.

Nostalgia can be a trap
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 05:24:26 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Experience it and leave!
Message:
Basically he stated that he experienced M as God or the living Lord for 25 years. That was very strong for me. I just can't imagine how one could feel that and leave.

Hi Denise,

That's been extremely difficult for me of course.

I finally had to admit that I had everything mixed up in my mind:

- the inner experience was the result of my meditation practice, and people practising other meditation had the same experience.
- there was also an experience as the result of my fascination for m, which is nothing special to m and EV.
- my conclusion that m was the Lord Made Flesh, was really the result of my expectations and the stories I heard from premies, mahatmas (I've been quite close and travelled with some of them) and pams back in the 70s.
- I knew there were a lot of wrong things around m and in DLM/EV, and I had been in a denial process for very long.
- I knew and always found curious that there was something wrong in my premies-friends behaviors, which is perfectly understandable now.
etc etc

and the result for me was that I was not in such a good shape after 24 years of practice, in spite of m's promises.

The whole thing was wrong, and it was necessary for me to step back and review the whole thing. That's when I started to get interested in m's real Indian background (there went my beliefs), what people experiences in other cults (there went m's unique experience). M's lies (denying HIS own past, and what's happening in DLM-EV) became more and more obvious. I started to understand a few things of the whole mechanism involved reading The Guru Papers ...... and guess what? I was not a premie anymore!

It was a very painful experience. I think it must be something close to what you could experience when you've been in love with someone for more than 20 years, and you finally realize he/she's been always cheating on you. What was also very painful is that I had to let go of all the shitty realtionships and friendships with the premies. What could you expect in friendships with people involved in such a denial process, and going from one new-age trip to the next one, not understanding why, and making such a mess out of their lives they say they love so much.

Maybe Rawat genuinely thinks he's God (I tend to think he enjoys it but doesn't really believe it anymore), that doesn't change a thing.

You have to start a new life, sort of....
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 07:26:53 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Hi Denise

Not sure what I can add to what's been said, but...

No, I'm sure the way forward does not involve denying any good experiences we had - or have, or could have again - with MJ. I know for me those experiences existed, big time. And perhaps could again. I still get a lot out of K - although do you know, one place I experience that whatever-it-is inside is quietly sitting at the computer reading this forum.... which doesn't mean I see it as the source of the experience!! For me, being honest about what I experience(d) is very important.

And yes, sometimes I do have doubts. And need to look once again at why I'm no longer at the lotus feet. It isn't because there wasn't an experience. It's because of the stuff that surrounded it.

I left MJ because the things which weren't right, outweighed the good points. We were all conditioned to link every good experience back to MJ. And ONLY to see 'the experience'. Gradually I started to see that there was a lot more going on. There was the lack of responsibility, and often love, between premies. There was the way MJ wouldn't address issues, ridiculed people who asked difficult questions, explicitly said he accepted no responsibility for his students. There were the conflicts in premie families, the large number of lonely people at programs, the encouragement from MJ not to engage with worldly attempts to improve the planet. There was the Elan Vital heirarchy and the struggles to get near MJ. Then there were the BELIEFS that went along with K. Those were, and are, very subtle, but to me that's really the most damaging part of the whole thing - and it hasn't changed that much, just got more subtle. I'm still finding out more about how MJ's belief system has infected and affected me. For example, that article Nigel posted pointed out something I'd not really grasped before: how we came to see the world as random, something that our actions couldn't really affect, a place where it wasn't really worth putting in energy and effort. Particularly if it was to assist someone else. That whole narcissistic attitude. Sure, MJ's subtle conditioning no doubt fed on attitudes we - I - already had to some extent. But he built them up. I also realised that I didn't actually do a lot of growing in MJ's world. What you said (below?) about how good it felt to have someone tell us what's what is so true. And indicates how much MJ's trip kept us in some sort of childlike state. Not of innocent innocence, but of arrested development on a lot of levels, including the level of taking responsibility for our own lives. Not to mention taking on a role in the wider society. After all, he made it clear our only real responsibility was to 'ourselves', which meant that part of us which he defined as real.

I'm finding there are many people out there who have much more interesting, intelligent, and down-to-earth ideas about what life is about. Some of them put those ideas in some sort of 'spiritual' context, some don't. I'm so glad to have that wider world open to me. MJ does begin to look small in comparison.

And I still experience something inside. Maybe it's a natural part of life, as Robyn says. Funny how often the idea of tuning into something in the stillness comes up, from people and places that have nothing to do with MJ, once you're no longer focussed only on him.

Hope all goes well with you, Denise. It isn't easy, taking back your own life. It does require a huge re-orientation. Even, I suspect, for 'K-lite' people. Perhaps, in some ways, it's more difficult when the ties have been more subtle.

Love, Diz
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:21:05 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: That's VERY much wrong
Message:
My problem is similar in that M's satsangs take me inside and induce the experiene of holy name and he does say things I need to hear a lot of the time. I don't know if it's just brainwashing, but I do feel love inside many times when I hear him speak, though not necessarily towards him. I just couldn't reconcoil this experience with his outer life.

I've had a similar problem. Now my feling reg this, and after reading a few things about it (like in S. Kakar's book, when he's describing the face of radio-salamis' followers after darshan - and his interpretation of this syndrome), is that it's an addiction-like regressive phenomenon induced by the cult involvement.

S. Freud also elaborated a lot on this phenomenon (nothing new). Read 'Civilization and It's Discontent' to understand more of the psychological phenomenon involved. It's very likely that people like you and me, and many 'addicted' premies (not all of them are) have a tendancy to have that kind of regressive attitude (everyone for his own personal reasons). It looks like it's a common thing to many people.

My opinion is that it's very important for you to try to understand your own motivations for such an addiction. You might otherwise very well fall in the next trap. I've spent almost 3 years with a psychoanalyst on this. It's been extremely helpful for me.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:24:48 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's VERY much wrong
Message:
I have absolutely no intention of getting into any other trips. I'm on my own for the duration or until I see M floating in the sky with a golden glowing crown of light around his head, at which time I'll beg forgiveness from his Lotus Feet!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: I'd rush (you) to a doctor
Message:
if I ever saw this.

Or if any of my friend would tell me this, I would take him/her (willingly or not) to hospital immediately.
(I know of an ex who saw a premie friend hallucinating, and took him to hospital. The guy is still one of EV's managers here!)

The only thing that would change something for me would be hearing him addressing those issues he never addressed, and showing actual human feelings and simpathy towards premies and other human beings.

It's of course impossible as I now understand.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:04:38 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'd rush (you) to a doctor
Message:
You're right, Jean-Michael. When I was in the decision-making phase after reading material on this site, my image of M was so damaged that I thought the only thing to repair it is ask him via email about things and see his response. I knew he wouldn't answer and it would be too painful (at the time) to deal with it, so I didn't bother to waste my time.
The worst part of his behavior is that he doesn't seem to want to discuss it and resolve painful issues for people who devoted their lives to him in a big way (ashram premies, instructors, etc.).
It's the silence I take to be incriminating.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 22:38:11 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Dear Jerry,
I think I have done a lot of that too:
'One thing I know that always helps is when it gets to heavy, I just say 'fuck it'. What does it matter anyway? It's not the end of the world. '

Just recently I am thinking that I should stop that. I mean I can't JUST stop it I guess but I want to start to try because I had a mini realization on my drive to work (one hour each way, lots of time for reflection!) one day this week that I need to face stuff to get organized and start running my life. It isn't like I've even given that job to anyone else, no one is doing it. A friend emailed me saying they like to talk with people they don't agree with as it makes them clarify their beliefs and become more strongly into them or realize they have no basis and disregard them. I realize in my avoiding confrontation or heavy issues I am letting myself slide through life.
Well I don't know what my writing this did for you or me or anyone but I think a lot of us have similar outlooks on life and it is one of the things I notice as one personality quality that most likely made us vunerable to the cult in the beginning.
Jerry, I hope you are alright. I am not even sure how long you've been an ex, sorry. I just assume most are long time exes and that is less and less the case here.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 16:48:17 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
I was a premie so long ago and at such a different time I do not know if I can be of any help. But reading your post reminded me of how I felt then a bit. I found that even when I was sure the whole thing was bogus I missed certain things. I missed the friendships with other premies and sort of the simplicity of premie life. God, I missed what I see so many premies do when they post here...if something scares them, or doesn't make sense, or causes doubts than it can be written off as mind, or the world, in any case nothing really had to bother you EVER if you chose, because all worries and problems were just temporary illusions of the world, not that experience inside.

What a formula!

One thing another person pointed out is that being an ex is not like you have joined another group. You are simply saying you chose to no longer be a follower of Rawats. I think that is the definition of an ex. I would say the healthiest thing in the world is to examine any doubts you have about your decision to no longer be a premie. As a premie I on a daily basis pushed doubts out of my mind. It is a hard habit to break. There is nothing wrong with doubts in the real world. Doubt away! Question everything! Scrutinize!

When I look back at what times of my life were hard and confusing when I left Rawat and when I got a divorce stand out. They were similar experiences. Scary steps into the unknown. I would bet the advice you give divorcing clients might be good advice to yourself now. Do nice things for yourself. Whatever things in life feel soothing and good do them. During stressful times I think it is good to get outdoors a lot. Things like that simple things.

Hope that helps a little bit.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 18:14:30 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Thanks for answering. I do miss some of the premie things, but what surprised me most of all is that I found that having a guru made me feel special. It felt good to have all my questions answered. It felt good to be different than the crowd (guess I still am, though). It felt good to have a spiritual parent figure who was loving and reminded me what I needed to do to be happy.
It's sad realizing it was all an illusion and I am to fend for myself and redefine my sense of reality. It brought me back into a similar uncertainty that existed before I heard of M, though I feel I've grown a lot from having K (not necessarily from M, he would just remind me to stay on the path). Humans prefer certainty in their lives.

Hope G is doing well!
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 20:55:33 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
The last conversation I had with my dear old Dad, before he became too ill to talk, was about him getting meals on wheels and I remember telling him that it was a bit like his war-time experiences when food was being rashioned. About a week later, I was nursing him at his bedside in hospital as he faded away and left us. Our last communication together was very beautiful and he smiled at me a few times and I told him not to worry about anything; just relax and go to sleep now (they had just given him morphine) and I would make sure that Mum would be well taken care of. He smiled one final sweet smile to me before he lapsed into final unconsciousness and passed on.

My dear old Dad, we'd both been through a lot and yet we both loved each other at the end. His comments about him getting meals on wheels just before he was admitted to hospital was brought back home to me the other day when I read on this forum about Maharaji getting the chefs who cook for the stars to cook for him.

I don't need to say any more, do I? My dear old Dad, he was still trying to look after my mother even when he was on his last legs. You cannot compare a King like him to a very, very small man like Maharaji.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:39:49 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: True greatness
Message:
Well said, Sir David. Maharaji is a very, very small man. Your father sounds like a wonderful man.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 14:52:16 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: coming soon as ***Best***
Message:
yes, that was really poignant. Coming soon to the Best of the Forum.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 21:35:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Denise,

Your husband's take on this is probably an acceptable perspective for someone only superficially aware of the cult, its history and internal mechanisms. Mind you, that's probably true for all sorts of other dangerous groups. You have to get up close and personal to see what's really going on. Right now, Maharaji's not demanding much more than forced gratitude, suppression of curiosity and as much money as you can comfortably pay for videos, trinkets, and guilt-assuaging donation receipts. But that's only now. As you now know, in the past, he demanded catastrophic levels of adulation and sacrifice and, in the future, he might again. There's no way around it, you have to try to find the truth of the matter.

You say you can't imagine a K-lite premie 'being angry about anything personally' other than the amount of money they've been pressured into donating. I'm amazed. Denise, are you just extremely selfish or myopic? Are you affecting superficiality as a way of avoiding a dilemna you think you face? Maharaji offers himself as a teacher of life's greatest mystery. A teacher of the 'secret of the heart' etc. How you can be so indifferent to his character completely amazes me. You sound like someone who'd enjoy being wined and dined by some wealthy slumlord, knowing full well that he's atrociously callous to his tenants, but able to justify it all on the basis that he treats you just fine. I mean, what's the difference if Maharaji screwed a whole lot of people before as opposed to now? He ruined lives and cost more than a handful. But do you care? Sure doesn't seem like it.

Look, at the very most, k is a harmless relaxation technique, a way to still the mind a bit and chill. Chill deeply even. But that's at the most. It is not the 'secret of life' and Maharaji is not preparing people for their afterlives. He's not even preparing them for their retirement. Just himself, unfortunately. But at what cost? You never did get back to me on this issue of his discouraging thought, introspection, questioning or philosophy. Have you read his recent satsangs? It's so evident it's beyond discussion. Maharaji really does try to make people simpletons. What does your husband think about that?
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 01:23:31 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God Jim you say it so right
Message:
that post is like my own delimma laid out on the table instead of festering in my breast.
thank you
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:03:38 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
I didn't say that what M has done doesn't bother me, it does. In fact, that's the whole reason I decided to leave the trip. I can't imagine how someone who is so narcissistic could really care about his devoteees/students. He portrays himself as this loving person, but once I really stood back and took a look at it, it was all maya. I can not accept as a spiritual Master someone who treats others as he does.

My point about the K Lite premies is that the trip is presented, at least, as innocuous trappings that go along with the meditation techniques. M still wants people to think he's the Lord, but doesn't come right out and say it, just hints. Like a satsang about two years ago about people waiting for Jesus to return and how would they know how to recognize him, etc., hinting at himself , of course. And I took it all in, hook, line, and sinker.

Also, my husband has Knowledge.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 06:24:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Your NEXT doubt!
Message:
will very likely be:

what if M is actually the Lord, and I've missed Him because
of my stupidity!

That's a nice one, believe me!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:15:52 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Your NEXT doubt!
Message:
I've already thought of that and when I expressed it to my husband, he just laughed!

It was your post about experienceing M that brought up the unresolved issues in me in the first place.

What really amazes me about myself is that I consider myself a person with good judgement and am also quite skeptical, but in 16 years since receiving K, I never bothered to do a more thorough background check on the whole thing. I did read Sacred Journeys
about 8 or 9 years ago and have read some old premie magazines (I own a few), but just relied on my inner experience to guide me.

I think it was easier for me to let go of M than maybe some others because it was K that grabbed my heart first, I had to be conviced by premies that M had anything to do with my inner experience. And no one ever told me he was the cause of it, just that he was a part of the experience and something about needing 'a lit candle' necessary to light others. Never made that much sense to me, but I finally accepted it as part of the trip. Plus I was still technically a teenager when I received K and it was cool (I thought) to have a guru and be vegetarian, so I went with it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Your NEXT doubt!
Message:
Perhaps this is a bit off the wall but it may be relevant:

I find Adolf Hitler to be awe inspring and a very charismatic person. I am only going on the film footage I've seen of him. He was probably one of the best orators of our century and more charismatic leaders are hard to find.

Despite his I am not about to become a Nazi and I can see the difference between Hitler as a charismatic person and his philosophy, which was way out of order. He was a very cruel and ruthless man and yet one can appreciate the power of the person, despite this.

I'm fortunate in that I never found Maharaji particularly charismatic or moving. I only had to give up my 'concept' of a God in human form. When it finally sunk in that Maharaji wasn't the Lord, I was relieved, if anything. I didn't have to try to worship some guy that quite honestly, I found abhorent.

Finally, premies are not really close to Maharaji and their love affair with him is really only in their own minds. They are loving an idea, a concept of an all knowing Lord. They project their hopes and dreams and desires onto him and he seems better than he is. If I sat on a stage and you believed I was the Lord and a band played devotional songs to me, you might believe I was giving you a fantastic experience of devotion.

This isn't as silly as it sounds because it is the BELIEF which produces the experience in many people. Why else would a newcomer be unmoved by Maharaji's presence on stage while the premies are swooning? It's the belief that their saviour is before them, that does it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:11:18 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Good stuff
Message:
Indeed. This is good stuff. I, too, have my moments of doubt and pain (Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil.)

First, if you're so inclined visit my page of False Maharaji's where there are other gurus including Adi Da (previously sold as Bubba Free John) who proclaims himself to be the God-man and whose trappings are much like Maharaji's - False Links. Don't Adi Da's followers experience something also or are they completely misled and deluded? Point is that most Guru cults provide some kind of inner experience via the teacher and the pooled collective group consciousness opertating in a state of anticipation.

What Sir David said about Hitler is true, but he omitted mentioning some of the techniques that made Hitler such a popular speaker. One technique is manipulating the venue and one thing that they did was put a lot of people into a crowded, overheated space to wear them out and get them into a worked up state. Sure, Maharaji's venue's are no longer like that. Rather, a Herculean effort is made to make the venue as soft and comfy as possible to lull you into a susceptible sleep state. All the old familiar symbols and songs are pulled out to help get you THERE.

You and others arrive at the meticulously crafted venue with an anticipation and an expectation to experience THAT experience. Thus, with the combination of everything and everyone a space is created to bring on THAT experience. And in my estimation THAT experience is more of a suggestive hypnotic trance state where Maharaji tells you what you want to hear in the vaguest and most general of terms. In fact, he's already said it time and time again in his videos that you've been keeping in touch with. The cult relies on an entire suite of brainwash products to hook you and keep you. If you get away too long and visit places like ex-premie.org you start to objectively question what it is/was that you experienced.

Ultimately for me that experience, while feeling good, became very unnerving. Why? Because it isn't God, it isn't the ultimate and I knew it. You are left wanting more and that is the trick of any good entertainer where they never give you too much, they always leave the stage before you tire of them.

After the big show you return home to your rat hole and feel spaced out and disconnected, yet you attribute the feeling as being good. After a few days or maybe a week or two it is gone and you come back to your senses whereupon you desperately attend video events in an effort to recapture that feeling. Sure, that feeling inside of a blank slate and slight bliss feels good in comparison to being overwhelmed by your concerns and problems. Oh, and some people don't have problems and this might not apply. Instead of making efforts to work on your problems you become focused on furthering and continuing the happy-go-lucky numb feeling of Maharaji's Knowledge, yet what you are neglecting is gnawing at you all the time. Oh, but Maharaji's salve works on that itch too because his philosophy says that nothing, nothing, nothing matters except his Knowledge.

Is Maharaji intentionally evil or merely a victim of his own circumstances? I don't really know. Is Maharaji a nice person? From what I'm hearing, the answer is NO. Sure, you can spin that away with Lila and all that Hindu crap. Am I expecting too much? No, I don't think so. Expecting the least amount of consistency and congruency out of Maharaji is really not such a big demand when you consider the product that He is selling, the perfect spark that makes everything perfect. Yes, he's perfect, perfectly spoiled and out of touch.

And if I'm wrong in my new convictions regarding Maharaji I'm going to hell or worse. Pretty strong stuff. They got you either way. No, it ain't pretty and it ain't easy.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 20:41:03 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Hypnotic suggestion
Message:
Roger,

Excellent post. I was just thinking about the trance state you mention and it reminded me that I had realized his technique a long time ago, but thought it was o.k. I was trained for 6 months in hypnotherapy after receiving K and learned that people are most suggestable in the trance state. I was very aware that when M spoke, I entered that state and I'm sure that's why I (and other premies) internalized his messages.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 21:35:32 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Hypnotic suggestion
Message:
Yes, I think that the last Long Beach I was at I was really going deep into it and was loving it. Maharaji was at that point in his speech alluding very strongly that he was God at which point the Happy Clappers (see AJW's Journey) got into action and snapped me out of it. If it wasn't for them I'd be in permanent samahdi (sp?) Damn!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 17:16:05 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Good stuff
Message:
Posters proclaiming: 'The promised God-Man has finally arrived' have appeared all over Berkeley recently. One even appeared at my seminary. I was reading the poster with a few classmates and commented 'it's great to see that the promised God-Man is overweight and balding, because it proves that I was made in God's image.' La de da, Adi Da!
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 13:18:57 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Always leave room for doubt
Message:
in your mind. Healthy doubt.
That's the basic principle of the Guru Papers, AND of Karl Popper's philosophy of science, etc. But in this particular case, there is no need to doubt. M is a fraud. I am totally convinced, and, personally, I find him outright disgusting. I mean, how low can you go? Live a life in luxury, on conned money, while his followers sweat blood in the ashrams, under the rotten vegetable threat. And can you believe, an individual pretending to be omniscient, still BUGGING his own ashram? You know this is true, it really, really happened, in London. And having peek holes into premies' bathrooms... True are also the gold toilets, the Jagdeo and Fakiranand stories, Amtext, Deca, money laundry. Believe me, If anyone is a fraud, then it's M. I've seen so many lives ruined in his disgusting Mission/EV. I feel sorry for those still trapped.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:24:51 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Oxymoronic Denise.
Message:
And no one ever told me he was the cause of it, just that he was a part of the experience and something about needing 'a lit candle' necessary to light others
Now what do you think that part about 'needing A lit candle' was all about anyways, if it wasn't a direct suggestion that just as an unlit candle needs a lit one to be lit itself, human beings need the master to give them k.
Not too hard to figure out Denise. I'm surprised you couldn't figure it out. Nonetheless you say that even though it never made sense to you you still accepted it. Why if it didn't make sense to you ,did you accept it?
Of course its the type of analogy appropriate for simpletons and not intelligent mature adults.
Human beings are not made of wax and wick.
M can take his candles and I think you know what he can do with them.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 12:59:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Hi Denise,

My concern is about what's coming rather than what's past.

I'm going to be fifty this year, and I've just discovered my map that was guiding me through life was actually for the Moscow underground rail system, and I was holding it upside down anyway.

One thing I've got out of my system though, is my burning desire to know God. (I don't beleive that my experience of 'Knowledge' was by any stretch of the imagination, an experience of God). What's the rush? We're all going to die anyway. I gave it my best shot and now I've quit.

I've got a dispensation certificate from the Creator saying, 'You've wasted enough time jerking around about trying to figure me out. Take the rest of your life off. Try fishing and painting watercolours'

Well... something like that.

I've not had any doubts since I escaped, but I didn't have any doubts when I was involved either.

We really are fickle creatures. You see it with relationships. People love each other like crazy, next thing they're trying to kill each other. Perhaps this is what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. They're dumb, we're stupid.

Blather blather, I put it to you brothers and sisters, rant, mumble, yes I see it all now.

Time for my medication, I'm getting too excited.

Anth.
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 19:48:57 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Anth, I think you're wonderful. SO funny and very insightful.

Enjoy your fish and your meds

Diz
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 15:17:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Hey thanks Diz.

Maybe we can wear world war 2 military helmets and rub Marmite on each other sometime.

Anton le perv.
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 19:47:43 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: K-Lite, Shmay-Kite!!
Message:
Basically, I think I have much less to be angry about personally and I can't imagine a K Lite premie having anything to be angry about unless they contribute major amounts of money
Denise the term K-lite was coined by exes to denote the SUPERFICIAL changes in the cults history, after that which is called the 'heavy devotion ' period.
And they were in fact superficial, designed primarily to keep his cult out of the glare of the media.
But as soon as m saw he could get away with it, he reverted back to what can be called 'heavy idolatry' if not heavy devotion.
What do you think was the message in 'NOW and Forever' and in so many other videos if it wasn't just this one thing:
IDOLIZE MAHARAJI
You saw these same videos and yet you fail to see how m was taking people down a path of utter surrender to the master as the desired goal.
Don't get too carried away with this k-lite thing Denise. Its beginning to wear thin.
Your experience in this breaking away process will be more determined by such factors as the length of your involvement in the cult, the intensity of your involvement, your(physical) closeness to m and your feelings about him...rather than the period in the cults history during which you received k. Thats what you have to deal with here. Not the period you received k in.
It was a cult in the 70's, the 80's and its a cult today as we head towards the next millenium.
And that's what it will be, because that is the nature of the beast.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 03:17:08 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: 'NOW and Forever' : HYPNOTIC
Message:
THAT video is the most hypnotic one I've ever seen.

I'd love to have a copy of it, and have it on the Internet.

Puts you almost in trance, because of the music only, and this is a very well known trick....
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Date: Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 20:00:04 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Hi Denise,

I've been meaning to reply to you for a few days.

When I finally broke away from Maharaji, I essentially burned that bridge behind me. It took a few years to get to that point but I felt like a burden of 'unknown psychological ramifications' had been released.

Also, for me it was not so much the $$$ that he took that caused resentment. It was more of a resentment of spending years in a vast wilderness devoid of love.

As Katie has said, 'The true healing begins when we forgive Maharaji'. I am trying to forgive but still hold him and his cronies to a certain amount of accountability for wreaking havoc in peoples lives.

Here's an example of one of my more difficult memories. When I first moved to Florida a fellow premie asked me to attend her home birth. I asked if she was going to have a licensed physician and she responded 'No' that she was going to have a 'Premie MidWife' who was friends with Marolyn's midwife deliver her baby. I asked if this midwife was certified. She replied 'NO'. I told her I was very uncomfortable with the entire arrangement and begged her to consider having her child in the hospital. At any rate she decided to have the baby using the 'Premie Midwife'. I was called over to her home, after a couple of hours of labor the 'Premie Midwife' said there was something not quite right and we should all meditate and pray to Maharaji. I asked the midwife to please take this mother to the hospital and she responded that all we needed was to trust in the holy name. Twenty minutes later a beautiful little baby girl was born. She was dead. I immediately asked the 'premie midwife' to administer 'Infant CPR' she replied that she didn't know how to.
I was appalled and disgusted 'mainly with myself'. I went to call an ambulance. The little girl was pronounced dead. The medical examiner was called to remove the body. This very same 'Premie MidWife' went to deliver another premie's child a few weeks later, that baby almost died also.

Life was not blissful. It was downright criminal and sad.

Sometimes I felt it would have been better to have been born deaf than to have ever heard the name 'Maharaj Ji'.

Love,
Mary M
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Date: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 04:11:27 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mary M
Subject: Expremie Doubts
Message:
Dear Mary,
What a horrid story, I wonder how the mother felt. Did she just accept it as M's ayga?! Gag me!
When I was a premie living up here on a premie farm there was a married couple and the wife was pregnant. She got a midwife, I didn't ask questions about her, the parents seemed into having a baby and into caring for it but during the birth there were problems, at least they went to the local hospital, not worth to much more than their midwife, I thought, until the midwife said that up until then she had only delivered GOATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The whole thing turned into this awful and hurtful 3 way marraige with the wife and the midwife and the husband with the midwife and the husband finally going off to CA. The parents stole the baby/toddler back and forth for a long time until the wife gave up the fight and became the '2nd' woman with a married couple which was awful after she'd been so hurt by the same situation herself. The wife in that 3 some seemed VERY sad to me. They were all premies too. Sounds like a CORN episode!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 17:29:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Taiwan satsang
Message:
Here're some excerpts from the excerpts posted on ELK of Maharaji's sales pitch yesterday in Taiwan.

DEFYING DEFINITION
We have so many questions, so many doubts, so many things that seem to require an explanation. These questions are natural but so too is our desire to make them all disappear. Because what we want is an experience of acceptance and understanding - not one of anxious uncertainty.

Human beings love to wonder about things. We hear the word 'infinite' and we wonder what that word really means. What IS infinity? How do I comprehend it? We hear the word 'good' or the word 'bad' and we wonder; what do they mean. These are words that our intellect can never satisfactorily pin down. We're dealing here, with ideas that defy definition. The same thing happens when we wonder about God. Is there a God?


This is so stupid. Words are created by people yet Rawat pretends that they're somehow divine and that our base, limited minds can never properly understand them. You can't get much dumber than that. 'Ideas that defy definition'. I'll have to remember that one.

WONDERING AND WANDERING
In our attempt to answer questions like this, we wander off into the world of philosophy. We wonder and we wonder and we wonder. We search and we search and we search.

Or else, we decide that we just don't care. We don't want to get caught up in all that wondering and all that searching. It is just going to go on and on and on. And we have other things to do.

There is, though, something in the heart of every human being that really does care. It doesn't matter what culture you come from, what your background is, how clever or how learned you are. There's something you want to know, something you want to understand. Something you can't help but wonder about.

You can see this when you look at a child; a new-born child. In its heart, it understands as much as any of us understand - for all our theories and philosophies. What does this child have? A purity, a simple purity.


Yes again, for any of you who ever doubted it, here's the proof that Maharaji is not just anti-mind, he's particularly opposed to any rational scrutiny of his trip. There is no context he's willing to discuss it in. Knowledge lies in a vaccuum. Nothing we could ever learn about life, the world, history, anything, could ever speak to it. Boy does this sound like a cult!

A PICTURE IN A PICTURE
Today I wanted to take some pictures of a temple - a beautiful, ornate Chinese temple. I went inside and there were people praying. It was very quiet, very serene. In the middle of this though, there was a little child running around, playing. The mother was saying: 'Shh, shh, shh! Come here. Stand still. don't run around.'

I couldn't help but wonder, if Buddha was looking down on the temple at that moment, who he would rather see? Someone who is sitting there, piously demanding: 'Oh, give me peace.' Or, 'Oh, make me prosperous.' Or would he rather see this little child who is just laughing, having a good time, looking around and enjoying life; without any concepts, ideas or great expectations? Just enjoying.

WEIGHTLESS AND FREE
The ability to enjoy life is a very powerful thing. How amazing to be able to enjoy, to be able to feel. How wonderful to feel like laughing and then to actually laugh. How wonderful to feel like crying and then to actually cry. That's the ability not to care what anyone thinks or to worry about what you ought to be doing. In a state like that, you are weightless.

Not like us. We think: 'I'd better not laugh, I'd better not cry. No matter what I am feeling, I had better just be very cool. I had better pretend that 'everything is fine.'

PEST CONTROL
It happens to us all sometimes. We try to make out that 'everything is fine' but up in our heads, nothing is really fine at all. Our hearts are empty and our heads are busy... way too busy. What do you experience under circumstances like that? A famine, that's what. Life becomes dry. The heart becomes empty and up in your head, you just get a plague of locusts, rampantly devouring whatever is left. What can you do when this happens to you?

When this happens to people, they often react by deciding: 'I'm going to do something about this. I'm going to try to control my thoughts, I'm going to try to control my mind, I'm going to try to control my situation. I'm going to control this - or control that. I'll follow this plan or that strategy. I'll apply this formula. I think that THIS
will work... or THAT will make me happy.'

This reminds me of a story.

WHERE ARE WE GOING?
One night, four friends were walking along a riverbank in India. They were drunk. Very, very drunk. They came across a boat on the river and one of them said: 'Hey, I know what. Let's go to Delhi.'

Another one said: 'It's too far to walk.'

'No problem,' said the first. 'We'll take this boat. If we each take it in turns to row, we can be in Delhi by the morning.'

They got into the boat and all night long, they rowed and rowed and rowed.

When the sun came up, they stopped rowing and got out of the boat. They started looking around and they saw a man coming along towards them. They said to him: 'Are we near Delhi?'

The man looked at them with surprise, and said: 'Delhi is far away from here.'

They replied: 'How can that be? We've been rowing all night. We must be in Delhi by now.'
This is the latest Guru mindfuck from ELK. It's supposedly excerpted from his second Taiwanese speech of yesterday. Tomorrow they're going to post the second half.

The man looked at them and said: 'Did you forget to untie your boat?'

They looked, and realised that they were in exactly the same place that they had started out from.

It's just a funny story, but they do say that everything humorous has a grain of truth in it.

We do that too, with our lives. We start rowing away, as hard as we can and then we say to ourselves: 'I must be achieving something. I must be getting somewhere. I must be making important progress. Just look at how hard I have been working.' But have we forgotten to untie our own boat?


So he thinks we learn nothing worthwhile in life, that babies are freer and wiser than adults, that there's nothing to plan for, nothing to accomplish. Moreover, it's a big mistake to worry about social conventions and how people judge us. So I'm left wondering why did he abolish the ashrams after all?
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 20:45:23 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's Taiwan satsang
Message:
Don't underestimate the boredom of doing laundry. I read every
word of M's sharing in the company of truth.

What is amazing to me is how he is like a word processor. He has said those same thing over and over, the temple story I heard was in Thailand I think. The boat was a train commute. on andon.
A baby may be beautiful in his or her innocense but they are born with NO ability to cope in this world and would die in hours without the help of some adult who is 'thinking' and working to take care of him. I am sad to see him targeting these coutries.
Someone once told me they were so abused and fragmented in their
childhood that they were 'dogmeat for the 60's'
I feel that way about the 3rd world countries. I am not sure about Taiwan. But is seems to fit there as well. Hell just the huge population will guarantee him some returns. fuck.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 22:23:14 (EDT)
From: Mary M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Baby Crying
Message:
A PICTURE IN A PICTURE
Today I wanted to take some pictures of a temple - a beautiful, ornate Chinese temple. I went inside and there were people praying. It was very quiet, very serene. In the middle of this though, there was a little child running around, playing. The mother was saying: 'Shh, shh, shh! Come here. Stand still. don't run around.'

I couldn't help but wonder, if Buddha was looking down on the temple at that moment, who he would rather see? Someone who is sitting there, piously demanding: 'Oh, give me peace.' Or, 'Oh, make me prosperous.' Or would he rather see this little child who is just laughing, having a good time, looking around and enjoying life; without any concepts, ideas or great expectations? Just enjoying.


Am I losing my mind? I distinctly remember the Lard going bonkers if a crying baby was brought into any of the halls where he was speaking. I also recall the Goonie Bird squad blocking entrance to halls if one had a babe in hand.

M is a pathological liar. Perhaps we should send him memos of his orders given to parents in the 70's and 80's. Read my fingers M - NO CHILDREN ALLOWED - Remember?

Mary M
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 11:26:47 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: Baby Crying
Message:
Mary, You are so right on to explore that weird anti child thing that was going on back then.

I joined the cult in 1975. At that time, where I lived, the attitude was to cherish the premie children. I have fond memories of beautiful little babies toddling around satsangs and nursing moms smiling as the prolactin high combined with the third technique and the blissful company made them look like pictures of the virgin Mary.

When did it change? I do not know when. But at some point it really seemed that premies who had kids were sort of disobeying agya. If you had a child you were second class. And the child should be neither seen nor heard. At festivals this was especially true.

Now in some ways this could have been a positive. I knew of some parents who sort of gave up. If the kids were not welcome, and their kids came first, they became even more fringe premies and got more involved in the community at large not just the premie community. But, and this is a big but, some moms and dads seemed to follow rawat from festival to festival anyway, and in my opinion some of these parents were perhaps a little mentally imbalanced to begin with. I remember some kids sort of seeming neglected, even appearing to be less than well clothed and fed, and especially nurtured.

But all in all I knew, as I have said before, more good parents than bad among premies. I often wonder about one who gave me baby showers, her son and daughter were so bright, she and her husband were so bright, and they lived normal lives with what seemed to me Rawat only a small part of their lives. I'll just bet her kids are valedictorians and on their way to great things.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 19:06:15 (EDT)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's Taiwan satsang
Message:
Oh, he's done babbling on ? Have I missed something ? Such revelations, boy, I'm already asleep...

Happy and living in Paris
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Date: Tues, Apr 27, 1999 at 05:30:03 (EDT)
From: crow
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: rawats Taiwan yapping
Message:
take a look at what is posted by jim here and read it with
the knowing that rawat is talking about himself here.
-Pest control- is straight from his own 'self realization'
and thinking on his own dilemmas and his reactions
and figureings.
premies think all this stuff is brilliant and beyond them and
that he is talking from on high to/at them.
But he is talking here about his own latest self analysis
however he, as usual, says YOU.

He can think about a kid without ideas all he wants but he
himself cannot give up his ideas because of his narcissistic
'I am god' trip that gives him so many ego perks.
He would be -out of control- and he can't handle that.

I garuntee you that -john cainer the liar- posted that at
elk.org and he edited out the next paragraph, which launched
into some 'master of life' ideas and other dogma of
control and fraud.
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:27:53 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: A premie with a lot to say
Message:
Hey, I've found a premie who likes to think and discuss and question what it's all about...

I was rooting around the site that 'xOr' linked to (now in the Inactive), trying to find who was putting these M links into the search engines, when I stumbled on a very thoughtful premie indeed. I wonder if we could get him to show up on the forum and discuss a few things with the gang here:



>



The Mission:



To create an environment that provokes a deeper understanding of life, the universe and everything...



leading inevitably to a more blissful experience of being. but i'd be happy with a rebirth, epiphany, or even a breakthrough. But It will have been worth my time if just a few of you find yourself gurgling happily



Why?



On a separate mission (to find my me) I collected ideas: Jack Handey's deep thoughts; Teachings of Don Juan; the Buddha.....Wisdom from many sources. I also found a lot of really amusing crap.(The pages of this site are a fraction of that accumulation, which I hope to completely incorporate) I finally found the person who could give me something tangible, an experience....



Guru Maharaji decided I was curious enough to appreciate the calm he unleashed... I do....After this monumental event in my life (Oct 97) I smiled. Today I still enjoy it but it raises some issues.





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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 08:08:44 (EDT)
From: akaam
Email: akaam@geocities.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is Peter Crisp?
Message:
Hello,
I am trying to find Peter Crisp, he is from the UK born 1950, i know he was in the DLM in the 70s, if anyone out there knows where he can be contacted or if anyone knew him please please please get in touch with me it is really important to me to find out anything like if he is even still alive.
love
akaam@geocities.com
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Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999 at 10:32:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: akaam
Subject: Where is Peter Crisp?
Message:
There is a web site spefically for contacting people who used to be or still are followers of Maharaji.

Just Click here to find old friends and leave a message. It's free and the web site is a permanent place in cyberland.
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Date: Mon, Apr 26, 1999 at 01:41:57 (EDT)
From: lurker
Email: None
To: akaam
Subject: Where is Peter Crisp?
Message:
it has been many many years, but Peter left the LA premie community and moved up to the San Francisco area. This is early 80's, He hung around Larchmont hall and the Wilshire premie house before he left for the north.
I dont know anything else.
I think his wife.partner was named Andrea.
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