Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 47

From: May 12, 1999

To: May 23, 1999

Page: 4 Of: 5



John Cavad -:- Jim Should Write a Book -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:21:51 (EDT)
__Jim -:- Jim Should Write a Book -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:30:56 (EDT)
____KB -:- enjoyingbook.print -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:36:58 (EDT)
____Mel Bourne -:- Jim Should Write a Book -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 05:02:47 (EDT)
______John Cavad -:- The Book Tour -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:46:00 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Jim's fan club -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 13:06:23 (EDT)
______Catweasel -:- Jim Should Write a Book -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 07:44:08 (EDT)
__Colonic Technician -:- Jim Should Do -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 00:11:48 (EDT)
____J.N. -:- Exactly (nt) -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:16:55 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Colonics (OT) -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:45:25 (EDT)
______Helen -:- Colonics (OT) -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:03:36 (EDT)
________Denise -:- Colonics (OT) -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:29:01 (EDT)
__________Colonic Tech -:- Colonics (OT) -:- Wed, May 19, 1999 at 01:58:49 (EDT)
____Guess -:- Colonic Technician should -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 17:05:14 (EDT)
__JW -:- Jim Should Write a Book -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 12:29:20 (EDT)
____Jim -:- I second that -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:13:50 (EDT)
______Yogurt from Spaceballs -:- Moychandizing! -:- Wed, May 19, 1999 at 03:19:11 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:38:33 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:23:45 (EDT)
____Denise -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:18:14 (EDT)
______Nim -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:29:08 (EDT)
________Nim -:- correction -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:40:14 (EDT)
__________Denise -:- correction -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 14:35:24 (EDT)
____________Nim -:- correction -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:35:57 (EDT)
____________Denise -:- Bait and Switch -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:41:39 (EDT)
______________Nim -:- Bait and Switch -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 23:05:37 (EDT)
________________Diz -:- Bait and Switch -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 06:36:48 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Who's holding the reins? -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:19:53 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 20:31:42 (EDT)
__Diz -:- Maharaji says it all -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 07:11:26 (EDT)

Denise -:- Bole Shri Satguru Dev... -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:13:55 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Bole Shri Satguru Dev... -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:01:24 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Hunsa Bunsa Ki Jai! -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- more Guru cheers -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:36:34 (EDT)
____Gail -:- Sing to the tune of Denise... -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:30:36 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Bole Shri Satguru Dev... -:- Wed, May 19, 1999 at 23:08:25 (EDT)

JP -:- The family scam -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 17:42:57 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- The family scam -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:17:54 (EDT)

Zac -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:19:23 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 15:08:35 (EDT)
____Denise -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:43:05 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Pierre -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:36:50 (EDT)
______Mike -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 15:48:29 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 15:30:46 (EDT)
____Zac -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 08:29:19 (EDT)
__nigel -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 17:36:51 (EDT)
____Helen -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
____AJW -:- 'Banishment letter' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 12:51:56 (EDT)
____Zac -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 18:08:55 (EDT)
__Mike -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 15:40:55 (EDT)
____Helen -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 17:48:42 (EDT)
____Denise -:- 'Oh the inhumanity of it all' -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 20:01:21 (EDT)
______Sir Dave -:- Just a thought -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 20:53:24 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- And there were also -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:56:34 (EDT)
________Mike -:- Ahhh a hook with barbs(nt) -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 12:04:33 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Things have evolved -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:45:22 (EDT)

Jim -:- The Lure of the Worm -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:11:27 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Synchronicity and Dogs -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:35:31 (EDT)
____Mick -:- Synchronicity and Dogs -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 02:48:12 (EDT)
______Denise -:- Synchronicity and Dogs -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:56:31 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- Synchronicity and Depth -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:04:15 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- Procreation and Depth, OT -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:18:01 (EDT)
__________Denise -:- Synchronicity and Depth -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:23:45 (EDT)
____________Runamok -:- Depth and Dogs -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 03:38:46 (EDT)
______________Robyn -:- Depth and Dogs -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 06:27:34 (EDT)
________________Runamok -:- Sex and Depth -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:08:33 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Sex and Depth -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:17:29 (EDT)
____Jim -:- My, how very interesting! -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:56:15 (EDT)
______Runamok -:- Synchronicity and Dogs -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:21:55 (EDT)
________Jim -:- I admit it -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:43:35 (EDT)
__________nigel -:- Synchronicity and dogs..? -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:12:30 (EDT)
____________nigel -:- Love you both... -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:49:50 (EDT)
______________Runamok -:- I doubt most TV shows... -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:52:35 (EDT)
__Dung Beetle -:- The Lure of the Worm -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 09:23:24 (EDT)
__g's mom -:- Jim's satsang -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:08:32 (EDT)
____Victoria -:- Jim's satsang -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:17:44 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Jim's satsang -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:32:10 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- Jim's satsang -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:19:15 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- The beetle story -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:34:19 (EDT)
____________Victoria -:- The beetle story -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:58:59 (EDT)
______________Denise -:- The Dung beetle satsang -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:20:12 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- D. beetle satsang Denise et al -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 22:36:02 (EDT)
__________________Victoria -:- D. beetle satsang Denise et al -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 22:49:14 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- D. beetle satsang Victoria(OT) -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:11:20 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Fake penis -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 17:30:58 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- Fake penis -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:20:37 (EDT)
______Helen -:- I grew a penis this weekend! -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:29:22 (EDT)
________King Missile -:- My detachable penis -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 16:06:02 (EDT)
__________Minnesota Housewife -:- My detachable penis -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 17:52:02 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- is a great band -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 19:52:43 (EDT)
____________King Missile (aka barney) -:- is a great band -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 22:12:47 (EDT)
______________Mickey the Pharisee -:- is a great band -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:07:42 (EDT)
________________Jim -:- is a great band -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:09:12 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Talking with a premie -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
__Liz -:- Talking with a premie -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:52:03 (EDT)
____Gregg -:- Talking with a premie -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 18:26:56 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Talking with a premie -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:20:03 (EDT)
________cp -:- Talking with a premie -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 20:56:08 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Talking with a premie -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:21:56 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Garden-flushed down toilet? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:41:14 (EDT)
________Liz -:- Garden-flushed down toilet? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:46:39 (EDT)
________gerry -:- Garden-flushed down toilet? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:49:26 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- Who is your guru? -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:25:16 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- Talking with a premie -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 03:32:06 (EDT)
______Denise -:- Talking with a premie -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:08:32 (EDT)
________Victoria -:- Talking with a premie -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:13:34 (EDT)
__________Gregg -:- meditation... -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 15:40:15 (EDT)
____________Victoria -:- meditation... -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 19:25:42 (EDT)
__________Denise -:- Talking with a premie -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:05:51 (EDT)
____________Helen -:- Talking with a premie -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:13:36 (EDT)
________Helen -:- Talking with a premie -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:08:37 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Talking with a premie -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 17:39:52 (EDT)
__Gail -:- Dig this one! -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 17:01:40 (EDT)

Robyn -:- AKA -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:09:45 (EDT)
__K.B. -:- AKA -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 08:43:15 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- AKA (K.B.) -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:21:00 (EDT)
______KB -:- AKA (K.B.) -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:52:17 (EDT)
__Victoria -:- AKA -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:15:25 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Devotion online -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 13:16:13 (EDT)
__Gregg -:- Devotion online -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 14:20:24 (EDT)
__JHB -:- Devotion online -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 15:04:06 (EDT)
____Jean-Michel -:- About 'strong stuff' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 03:35:21 (EDT)
______JHB -:- About 'strong stuff' -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:04:04 (EDT)
__Jean-Michel -:- Digest of M's teaching -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:43:35 (EDT)
____Jethro -:- Digest of M's teaching -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:55:15 (EDT)
____Jethro -:- Jean-Micheal please read -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 05:16:45 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- M's ecstasy! -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 05:35:38 (EDT)

Katie -:- FAQ: How many got K in 1970's? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:32:58 (EDT)
__John Cavad -:- FAQ: How many got K in 1970's? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:43:50 (EDT)
____Helen -:- FAQ: How many got K in 1970's? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:51:52 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Jim's quotes -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:07:19 (EDT)
________Jim -:- I just make them up -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 21:42:01 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- I just make them up -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:22:48 (EDT)
____Robyn -:- FAQ: How many got K in 1970's? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 11:11:30 (EDT)
______John Cavad -:- FAQ: How many got K in 1970's? -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:22:05 (EDT)
________AJW -:- Addiction -:- Mon, May 17, 1999 at 13:04:45 (EDT)
____Katie -:- More Guesstimates? -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:03:49 (EDT)
______Jean-Michel -:- You're off! -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 13:11:00 (EDT)
________Katie -:- Thanks, JM/another question -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 14:05:37 (EDT)
__________John Cavad -:- Thanks, JM/another question -:- Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:30:32 (EDT)
____________Denise -:- Easy in the 80's -:- Sun, May 16, 1999 at 10:13:53 (EDT)
____________JW -:- Thanks, JM/another question -:- Tues, May 18, 1999 at 19:44:59 (EDT)

Realized Soul -:- Maharaji In America........ -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 06:10:14 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Maharaji In America........ -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:07:56 (EDT)
____frankace -:- Maharaji In America........ -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:17:03 (EDT)

Jethro -:- ANTH please read -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 04:01:30 (EDT)
__AJW -:- ANTH please read -:- Fri, May 14, 1999 at 06:15:08 (EDT)


Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:21:51 (EDT)
From: John Cavad
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim Should Write a Book
Message:
Jim, I honestly believe you should eventually publish a book on GMJ, and you should start on it now. We can all give feedback on your drafts, if you like, to help move you along on this ambitious project,(which I have nominated you for). Everyone here knows you have collected quite an impressive library of historical GMJ documents (and other rare stuff) over the years. And you have a unique & brilliant sense of humor and wit that you can incorporate into your story telling. Not to mention, as a born-again capitalist, it would also be a way to make a few bucks (pounds for you British fans). Sure, it won't make the New York Times Best Seller List, but who cares? We'll all buy your book, and you could at least make enough money to pay for a one week vacation in Tacoma, third class perhaps.

The Very Best to you!
John
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:30:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Jim Should Write a Book
Message:
Thanks, John, but wouldn't that just alienate all my premie friends? Make it difficult to get good seats at programs? I'm not sure I'm ready to pay those prices.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:36:58 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: enjoyingbook.print
Message:
Oh Great! Then we would have a raft of books written by the
enjoyinglife.org type guys.
After Mr rawat tours and proclaims 'books' are just a
distraction in life (and whatever he said about the internet..)

The book signing tour might be a bit like a Salman Rushdie tour!
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 05:02:47 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Should Write a Book
Message:
Hi Jim

Just passing through and noticed 'gushing' John's comments above. I don't know about alienating your premie friends, but you do seem to have pulled off the impossible ie. having any friends at all!!!

I nominate John for President (and probably only member) of the Jim Heller fan club, any seconders?

Regards

Mel
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:46:00 (EDT)
From: John Cavad
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Book Tour
Message:
Once Jim's book is published, then the fun begins. Jim, you'll go on the USA Book Tour one week before it hits all the major (or minor) book stores. First they'll be a raunchy interview with Howard Stern, then a touchy-feely interview with Oprah, and finally Barabra Walters (prime-time TV) where you'll cry hysterically on screen as you let the world know about all the money you hypnotically handed over to that SOB, so he could buy 18K gold toilets.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 13:06:23 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim's fan club
Message:
I'll be the treasurer...just send your tithe to www.enjoyingrationalthought.com

Why does everybody bust on Heller? Maybe I just don't know any better because I don't read the fuckface threads, but I think Jim brings up a lot of good points, reprinting M's ridiculous satsangs, the M apologia, etc., I thought this was the Maharaji-is-a-fraud forum, am I wrong about this?

Hey Jim, could you beat me up a little, so I know what everybody else is getting out of this forum that I am missing, so far?

Love,
Victoria

P.S. It hurts so good!
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 07:44:08 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Not Sid Nigh
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Jim Should Write a Book
Message:
Catweasel says what a nice sentiment from an interesting cryptic.I nominate Jim as a trash bin or septic tank,and would be happy to kick off his new career with a positive donation of the appropriate product.Nice name you have there Mel,is that anywhere near Warrandyte????
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 00:11:48 (EDT)
From: Colonic Technician
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Jim Should Do
Message:
A High Enema Or Two Before He Writes His Tome.
You Can Hold The Hose.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:16:55 (EDT)
From: J.N.
Email: None
To: Colonic Technician
Subject: Exactly (nt)
Message:
xyz
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:45:25 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Colonic Technician
Subject: Colonics (OT)
Message:
I once knew a premie who was a colonic technician, though I doubt she would ever become an ex. Anyway, I was always too scared to have a colonic, sounds painful!
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:03:36 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Colonics (OT)
Message:
Did you read the 'My colonoscopy' thread a few months ago? I had a colonoscopy in March and a few forum folk were sharing their stories with me. I think it was in the TMI category (too much information).
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:29:01 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Colonics (OT)
Message:
Vaguely remember that thread, my mind's been full lately.
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Date: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 01:58:49 (EDT)
From: Colonic Tech
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Colonics (OT)
Message:
'Vaguely remember that thread, my mind's been full lately.'

Dear Denise,

A nice warm colonic would clear up that 'full' feeling in your mind. And as for being painful, it depends, as in most of life's scenarios, on who is sticking it to you and how.

No disrespect or sexual harrassment intended by that last comment. It just came out that way and made perfectly good sense, both literally and figuratively. But seeing as I am conversing with a nice lady, I just wanted to make it clear that I mean no dispespect. Respect to your husband, too.

Gotta run and change hoses now. This is a truly shitty job, but ancient, going back thousands of years, when long-necked gourds were used in the absence of running water and fleet enema kits.
It's alot better now than it was then, believe you me! Look at it like completely cleaning out your basement and hosing it down real well. Most cadavers at med schools contain 20-30 lbs of fecal matter encrusted onto the intestinal walls. That's what enemas and colonics can remove, resulting in better health, higher energy levels, cleaner blood and better food assimilation. It's just foreign to our 'modern' culture.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 17:05:14 (EDT)
From: Guess
Email: None
To: Colonic Technician
Subject: Colonic Technician should
Message:
not stop with the bowels. Why not keep the water running until it flies out of your mouth. That way, you'll be certain to be completely purged. I'll hold the hose for you, honey!
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 12:29:20 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Jim Should Write a Book
Message:
John, I'm sure Jim could write a great book on this subject, but JM has actually done most of the research so maybe he could do it.

On the other hand, I doubt it would ever get published because so few people would be interested. There are hardly any premies left in the west, maybe a few thousand, and although there are many more ex-premies, many of them have likely completely forgotten they were even in the Maharaji cult. And the public? Please. People who even remember Maharaji just view him as some relic from the 70s who hasn't been heard of since, given his paranoid avoidance of any press or publicity whatsoever over the past 20 years.

Now, a half-hour expose on 60 Minutes of 20/20 or one of those other news magazine shows might be another story, or, better yet, Frontline on PBS, which is usually a whole lot better reserched.

I still think an article based on the differing viewpoints of this websites with the premie websites, along with some ACTUAL history, would be a great feature article for anyone who is interesed, (but maybe nobody is).
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:13:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I second that
Message:
Yes, Joe, JM really could put it all together quite nicely. I could even see the two of you collaborating. Would it sell? If done right, I do think there might be an audience of sorts. One would have to place the cult in a broader social context. These guys I know sold their book Carlos Castenada: Academic Opportunism in the Psychedelic Sixties on that basis. (Too bad it's such a mess.)

But that could work. If anyone wanted to give me enough money to live on for a year or so I'd happily cut and paste JM's stuff and go out and interview Michael Donner again.
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Date: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 03:19:11 (EDT)
From: Yogurt from Spaceballs
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Moychandizing!
Message:
Dat's da ticket!
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:38:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
This is the hamster quote they have up on ELK today:

We have so many questions, so many doubts, so many things that seem to require an explanation. These questions are natural but so too is our desire to make them all disappear. Because what we want is an experience of acceptance and understanding - not one of anxious uncertainty.

- Maharaji, Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 24 April 1999.

Amazing thing to say if you think about it. He concedes that it's natural to have lots of questions and doubts about things. After all, we want understanding, right? That all looks so good until you look a little closer. How are you going to get this understanding? Is it by finding the answers to all those questions or test those doubts? No, it's by making them disappear! After all, as he himself puts it, uncertainty's bad. Why bother trying to answer any questions? Who knows if you'll ever be satsified? Better altogether to just stifle them in the first place.

This is completely contrary to human nature. I mean, even he admits that questions and doubts and simply wanting to know what the fuck's going on is natural. Well if that's natural, how natural must it be to try to suppress the process?

This is absolutely blatant cult programming.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:23:45 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
Hi Jim,

I think it must be lila, or abra cadabra, or Pandora's fucking box, somebody please tell those premies what happened to the Cat! And when those aspirants have managed to whittle themselves down to an infantile state of pure I want and I need, then they can have the well-publicized 4 techniques, the ones that come directly from the master, no strings attached, just the reins to your life.

Does he still ask them to surrender the reins to their lives? I think I asked Nil that question, but he never answered me.

Sincerely,
Victoria
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:18:14 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
Victoria,

Were you serious when you asked if GMJ asks people to surrender the reins of their lives? Not even close. He just asks that you:

1. don't reveal the techniques

2. give K a chance

3. 'stay in touch'

That's it. Plus a minimum of 1 hr. of practice a day. Remember, this is K-Lite! No heavy duty trips to weigh you down! No guilt,
no karma, no reincarnation, no 'Master', just a Teacher. (But you can still go to Australia and kiss his feet if you'd like!)
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:29:08 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
Denise,

What you have just presented to Victoria is nothing more or less than the 'baiting' side of the m and k trip. Then there is the 'switch' that totally contadicts the baiting...even turns it on its head.
And thats always been a key charcteristic of the modus operandi of this cult as it is with so many others. The cheery, simple, appealing manner in which m and his premies present the trip is the bait designed to bring people into the cult.
Then there's the switch, when you start to feel that the trip is becoming exactly what Victoria was referring to as the old 'surrender the reigns of your life '...and something in your gut tells you, this isn't the place for your personal surrender. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with surrendering...it could even be an enjoyable experience...it all depends on who you're surrendering to.
And Denise, the sad truth is that too many who have surrendered to m and his trip have been burned too badly.
So how does the switch sound like today? MJ in Montreal just a year ago (yes again):
You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen? Your ship is going to sink! You want to hold onto your principles?! I'll tell you whats going to happen. You're going to die!!
And so when you so cheerfully chime in with:
Remember, this is K-Lite! No heavy duty trips to weigh you down! No guilt,
no karma, no reincarnation, no 'Master', just a Teacher. (But you can still go to Australia and kiss his feet if you'd like!)

I say,
Remember this is K-Lethal. The heaviest trip possible because it involves m's utter domination over the hearts and minds of innocent people.
Forget about karma, forget about reincarnation, there is no 'Master' here, no Teacher either but just(Run, if I may borrow this from you...) a serial/mass conn artist.(And if you want to bust your chops to get to australia so you can kiss his feet...well have a nice life!)
Finally Denise, may I say how grateful I am that you've become(as you yourself at least suggested in a previous post) an ex.
God only knows the crap you'd be laying on us if you were still a premie!:):):)(sorry, but I really do get a chuckle thinking about that:)
Have a wonderful day Denise! I hope its as beautiful where you are, as it is today in Montreal. Beautiful weather!
Time to go out and enjoy!
Take care,
Love,
Nim
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:40:14 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: correction
Message:
There should be no question mark after the first
'I'll tell you whats going to happen'
in the m quote in my above post.
It should have been a simple period.
Sorry
Nim
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 14:35:24 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: correction
Message:
Beautiful here but hot. Montreal is beautiful and its subway system is great!
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:35:57 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: correction
Message:
Beautiful here but hot. Montreal is beautiful and its subway system is great
Well I trust you've been staying cool my dear...and I agree with you totally on Montreal and its metro. So sweet of you to notice.
NOW, how about the 'bait and switch' characteristic in the way m and the cult operate?
Whaddya think?
Or would you rather duck and run off to another thread?
Please feel free to respond or not as you wish.
Most importantly, stay cool and wear your sunscreen!
Love,
Nim
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:41:39 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Bait and Switch
Message:
Nim,

Re: bait and switch, I'd have to agree in the 70's and probably in the 80's as well, but I personally just don't see it in the 90's. There seems to be a lot of freedom, so much so that people don't stay on the reins. There is some pressure to do service, both by GMJ and other premies, but I've always felt that was a personal decision as well. You know, now that I think about it, maybe people get more sucked in based on how needy, gullible, or psychologically needy for authoritarian control they are. Maybe those people will get more involved no matter what the outer structure is, because they need to.

I can say for myself personally that at 19 when I received K, I was much more naive and gullible (though tried to use my best judgement even then, taking a long time until agreeing it was ok),
had some big control issues, and generally was a much more needy person than today. As I grew in personal strength through intense therapy (it is recommended therapists go through it) and just getting older and forcing myself to attend to my issues, K was still important but the organization wasn't. What I noticed fairly early on was that, IMO, the neediest individuals were the ones most involved locally (community coordinator, etc.). At first I thought it was a really healthy thing for them because of my opinion of the whole trip, but as I got older I saw that they were dysfunctional individuals who were playing out their issues.
(I'm not trying to be negative about them, in fact the community coordinator in my first community was my second best premie friend and I looked up to her for her role).

It really is a very good thing that in the early 80's the trip didn't occupy one's whole life, because I maybe would have gone for it. Though I resented missing the big outer trip at the time, and especially the end of 'living room satsang', it was GMJ's agya that we focus inside instead. I hated it but now see it was the best thing for me. I personally always seemed to stay on the fringes of communities I've been in and it's been fine for me.
Not that my spiritual life or growth wasn't important, I still meditated and tried to stay as focused as possible, though marriage, career, and children took the utmost importance on the outside. I now understand that GMJ discouraged this in the 70's, but I was never given this message and was confused early on about how to proceed with my life. In the late 80s I remember GMJs satsang about balance in one's life, re: inner vs. outer life. I specifically remember him talking about the need for both, becasue one would crumble without the other. He addressed those people who were too focused on K and not enough on their outer lives. I remember it because I think I was pregnant with my first and all involved in my career and worried about my life decisions relating to spiritual growth. I needed to hear that satsang, it gave me the ok to continue as I was. I suppose one could also construe it to mean that M wanted people to get on with their careers to make more money to donate, as many exhippies seemed to have been stalled in that aspect of their lives due to lack of emphasis earlier.

What I'm trying to say here is that given the chance, people will hand over their lives even today and though I don't agree that the chance is there right now, the M & K trip definately has the capacity to be dangerous. It all depends on where M decides to go with it, IMHO. I agree this isn't good for someone to have so much power over others, but wonder whether he's not handling it responsibly, at least right now. Maybe getting rid of the outer trip in the early 80s was a responsible decision. I am of the opinion that GMJ screwed up in the 70s, but upon realizing it, did the best he could to rectify the situation (even if it wasn't completely adequate). I never saw him as God so I don't believe he's beyond having his own issues that drive his behavior.

Anyway, this is just my view and maybe it has more to do with where I'm at psychologically, don't know, but I'll think more about it.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 23:05:37 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Bait and Switch
Message:
Denise,
Thank you for your views and thoughts on this subject of 'bait and switch.'
It really is a very thorough and thoughtful response and deserves a considered reply on my part...which I'm afraid I can't offer you right now, because my days are more than full workwise(I won't complain:)and I'd like to take some time to think about your post, and get back to you when I have a little more time and energy to respond...hopefully towards the end of the week, or the week end.
In the meantime
Have a good one!
Nim
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 06:36:48 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: Bait and Switch
Message:
Just one bit of input, Denise, on the subject of BALANCE.

If Mj was giving messages about it being good to be balanced, he was also giving the opposite. I can remember a satsang (scuse antiquated language) in the early 90s where he said that those with K could never look for balance, because K was so good that the rest of your life really didn't make it, relatively - something like that. That was a 'drip' for me, although at that stage I was still trying hard to be a good premie and just felt, ho hum, once again I'm not making the grade, because I felt such a deep need to get some balance in my life.

I'm sure he was still running the 'priorities' line at that stage, too. The problem with that, particularly for those with access to service, is that the first priorities never end.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:19:53 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Who's holding the reins?
Message:
Denise,

Did Maharaji give the reins back to all those who surrendered them years ago when that was the requirement?

Whoooaaah! Just as I thought, the horse is out of control and nobody is driving.

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 20:31:42 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
I have sent you an email and look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Liz
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 07:11:26 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji says it all
Message:
Jim, I'm obviously reading this out of context, but another interpretation of this quote is that it's saying that if we want acceptance and understanding FROM HIM, we should disappear our doubts. Which is a pretty accurate rendition of what's required, I reckon.

On reflection, I think your interpretation - that the 'experience of acceptance and understanding' that we (might) want is in OURSELVES, is probably more accurate. I doubt he'd be so blatant as to say what I thought he was saying.

Maybe it's a kinda subliminal message...

Diz
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:13:55 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bole Shri Satguru Dev...
Message:
So I'm familiar with this 'cheer' (if that's what it is), but what exactly does it mean? When was it supposed to be said? Did initiators say it too, or just premies? Basically, what was the deal with it for all us younger, less fortunate premies? (Yes, Helen, I do have festival envy!)
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:01:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Bole Shri Satguru Dev...
Message:
It's full length is:

Bole Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai! (Someone more knowledgable will probably translate it all but Bole is a bit like 'Hooray' or 'Praise be' I think, Shri is a title a bit like my 'Sir', Sat means truth, Guru means teacher more or less, Dev I'm not sure about but it could be one of the many names of God in Hinduism, Maha means great, Raj means king, Ki could mean anything and Jai means something like 'All hail'.

That was the cry for Guru Maharaj Ji but there were other similar cries for the other members of the holy family;

Ananda Ganda Bal Bagwan Ki Jai! was for Maharaji's eldest brother Bal Bagwan Ji who is now known as Satpal Maharaj and claims to be the REAL perfect master.

There was some wierd shout for Maharaji's mother, Mata Ji which I can't remember exactly but it went something like; Jagat Janat Mata Ki Jai!

I vaguely remember there were shouts for Maharaji's two other brothers, Raja Ji and Bhole Ji but I forget how they went.

At programs in the Early seventies, one of the Mahatmas would act as cheerleader and shout out all of these proclaimations of divinity which would also be voiced heartilly by most premies except for the more reserved ones like myself who couldn't stand all this shouting over something I felt no enthusiasm about.

Hey I was confused. I thought that I had joined a meditation group and it was some time before I realised what all this shouting was about, by which time it was too late.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Sir Dave & Denise
Subject: Hunsa Bunsa Ki Jai!
Message:
I think it meant Rub Maharaji's honey buns or something like that! Actually, each member of the former Holi Family had special powers and jurisdiction over different natural phenomena.

Think, Denise. These were fairy tales! Festival envy could be equated to penis envy. How does it go? 'Be thankful for what you have been given and grateful for what you have not been given.'--Guru Maharaj Ji (oops, I mean Margarine, or whatever his name is these days--DEFINITELY NOT THE REAL THING!)

Of course, he could make it as a butter-ball turkey.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:36:34 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: more Guru cheers
Message:
Rah Rah Sish Boom Bah yey GURU!!!!

Oh Guru your so fine Your so fine you BLOW MY MIND yea GURU

Oh no I spent all my time as a teen at the satsang hall instead of at pep rallies so I don't know anything BUT guru cheers.... :(

This joke did not work.

But Bhole Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai was a guru cheer.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:30:36 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Sing to the tune of Denise...
Message:
DENISE

Denise, Denise;
He's had his way with you.
Denise, Denise;
Sucked in by Fatguru.
Denise, Denise;
I'm so afraid for you.

'Cause when you talk,
It's only by HIS GRACE.
You parrot words.
Your mind has been erased.
And when you kiss,
Prem's feet are in your face.
Ooooh, Awwwww, Ommmmmmmmmm

Oh, Denise, whoppeedo.
You have been cult-whipped.
Denise, whopeedo.
You are like a clone.
Denise, whopeedo.
He has so used
Youoooh, Awwwww, Ommmmmmmmmm

Denise, Denise.
What more can we do?
You've read this Forum,
With nil effect on you.
You're tightly bound
To lard-ass feet of Fatga-
Roooh, Awwwww, Ommmmmmmmmm

And so it is
That you will make your way
With half a brain.
Only one side's in play
You are a schmuck
To live your life this way.
Ooooh, Awwwww, Ommmmmmmmmm

Oh, Denise, whoppeedo.
You could be much more.
Denise, whopeedo.
You could be the star.
Denise, whopeedo.
You could become
YOUooooh, Awwwww, Ommmmmmmmmm
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Date: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 23:08:25 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Bole Shri Satguru Dev...
Message:
Well for penis envy we can all get detachable penises (peni?) but for festival envy ya just had to be there. And for the last time IT WASN'T FUN! :)
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 17:42:57 (EDT)
From: JP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The family scam
Message:
Step right up! Witness the miracle,feel the power,meet the living God, in person, this Saturday night, at bbq. Billy's rib & chicken shack, corner of darshan & necterine just past the millenium bridge next to the
Golden doughnut motel. All are welocme,young & old alike.Visa & Mastercard accepted.Don't let this once in this lifetime opportunity pass you by! Be there, or burn in the hell fire of your own thoughts!Sat Nam!
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:17:54 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JP
Subject: The family scam
Message:
Complementary bottle of snake oil for every convert who donates $1,000 Maharaji.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:19:23 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
The 'Guru Papers' has an interesting section describing the isolation and loneliness Guru's face because they have no peers or confidants. Their conclusion was that the Guru finally loses their humanity. If they have an organization, it too I'd assume would lose it's humanity.

Let's look!

1. Public presentations with no human interaction or communication.
2. Community video events with no human interaction or communication.
3. No way for the student to contact or communicate with the teacher i.e. ask a question receive an answer.
4. No communities of people to bond with or share a common life value. (actually a good thing.)
5. People who have questions are encouraged by the Guru to walk away.
6. Individuals encouraged to travel 1000-3000 miles for a chance to be turned down for knowledge. Surely this could have been determined ahead of time before people who could ill afford it were stiffed in Miami.
7. Requirements for aspirants to attend nightly video events once a week for 5 months when no premie in existence does so. Is something wrong here?
8. Security Clearing centers for entrance to premie only events. This is degrading. Get off it. We aren't talking national security here and the techniques are on the web.
9. Calling people who attended one single video event 12 -15 months after the fact to see if they want to be kept up to date on coming events. This is harrassment and embarrassing to the people who foolishly brought their friend. If they are interested they'll come around. Leave them alone. What are you gonna do next call to see if they meditate? Stupid.
10. Elan Vital acutally sends letters to individuals who have not followed their unwritten code telling them that they cannot serve Maharaji for a specific period of time. Since when does EV have juristiction over this kind of thing? I thought this kind of banishment could only come from Maharaji.
11. Top down organizational structure with no top and come to think of it NO down. Just a bunch of crazy middle people engaging in dillusional behavior or as the old indian story went, 'counting the spoons'.
12. Finally a question. If a maharji video is playing deep in the forest or in an empty hall and nobody hears it is it actually playing?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 15:08:35 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Zac: This list really affected me. I've been out of the cult for so long that I had no idea some of these things were occurring. I had the same reaction when an ex who shall remain unnamed sent me an email a while ago mentioning how they had to follow an American initiator around for months and then went through a K session that lasted for days. It struck me then that the process had become dominated by this particular initiator's ego, his need to have power over all these people who were begging him for K, and who were willing to do whatever HE said to get it.
People have achieved unlimited power and status within this organization, and they are able to abuse it to no end. Letters are written to people to kick them out?!!!! What is that about? Who decides this? What are the standards used to make this decision? There's a security clearance area now? Do people have to go through metal detectors? Come on! The greatest fear should be that some ex will show up with a tape recorder. Paranoia was always a strong suit in DLM, but the paranoia now should be that those folks at the top will lose the power and accoutrements of power that they would not have in the 'outside world'.
Sounds to me as thought the folks at the top have developed the grand delusion that they should be able to exercise the powers of the Master, if not by giving K then by having control of all other other aspects of the premies' lives. There is something very disturbing about such an aspiration.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:43:05 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Marianne's post reminded me of a Knowledge selection in Montreal a few years ago where a guy flew in from a smaller Hawaiian island and had to fly to Oahu then on to Montreal and didn't get chosen. The worst part of it was that later in the event, GMJ laughed about it! It was bad, I really felt for the guy. I doubt he ever followed through after that.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 21:36:50 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Pierre
Message:
Hi Denise,

Your story reminds me of a French aspirant I knew in Denver in 1977-78 who had been an aspirant and on the DLM scene longer than most premies and aspirants I knew. We always wondered why they kept rejecting him for k. Of course, we figured it was lila and also, who were we to try to understand the mysterious ways of the Lord and his Mahatmas...undoubtedly they knew something we didn't. I think he was going to marry some American premie or aspirant to stay in the country, but when he was rejected time and time again, I recall hearing him say he was going back to France and he wasn't going to ask for the fucking knowledge again, he didn't want it anymore.

Lucky guy? Or screwed over just like the rest of us? Perhaps a little (or actually, a lot) of both.

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 15:48:29 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
TO M: 'GMJ laughed about it!'....... Very funny, M, very funny!

TO Denise: What a heartfelt response from the LORD himself! Doesn't his humanity just impress the hell out of you? WOW, I can't wait to be just like him.....NOT!
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 15:30:46 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
That's quite an eye opener for me, Zac. I didn't realise it was THAT bad. I'll put that on The truth about Maharaji web site if that's OK.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 08:29:19 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
The facts is the facts. Go ahead Dave. Later Z
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 17:36:51 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Zac
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Great post, Zac,

I am especially interested in:

10. Elan Vital acutally sends letters to individuals who have not followed their unwritten code telling them that they cannot serve Maharaji for a specific period of time. Since when does EV have juristiction over this kind of thing? I thought this kind of banishment could only come from Maharaji.

If some sin-blackened premie or ex could reproduce a letter like this, I'm sure it would deserve a permanent place on the website.

Anyone..?
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: nigel/Zac
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Yes, Zac, or anyone who has received such a letter--this is truly something to see.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 12:51:56 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: 'Banishment letter'
Message:
Hi,

I'm sure I'd have had one by now if they were common currency in the UK.

Is there any way to check if you're on the 'Monmat' list?

Anth.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 18:08:55 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
The letter exists. The President of EV has resigned. Communities may soon be abolished and I may be running out of posts. Later Z.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 15:40:55 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Zac: You bring up a superb point. Why are there (were there) 'premie only' events? Never was ANYTHING said about the techniques (or any other 'secret') at ANY premie-only event that I attended; excepting K-reviews. Why premie-only events? The real answer is obvious! Because those are the events where the LOTU nonsense is encouraged and where the premies are exposed to the hard-core programming that aspirants would likely see for what it is...cult-think. Some would say these events are premie-only so they don't 'confuse' the aspirant....HAH! They are premie-only to keep the aspirants (who still possess a few working brain cells and some modicum of rational thought) from RUNNING as fast as their legs can take them!
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 17:48:42 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Run, aspirants, my pretties, run like the wind and don't look back!!!! (nefarious laugh)
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 20:01:21 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: 'Oh the inhumanity of it all'
Message:
Re: premie only events, my husband's impression was that they were no different than aspirant stuff and there was only a separation so that one felt he was missing out on something important in the 'inner circle' of premies. Not only is curiousity raised, but it's only natural to want to be in a group and not an outsider or fringe member. He viewed it as a psychological game of sorts to pull one in more.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 20:53:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Just a thought
Message:
for any premies out there who still believe that Maharaji is the Lord.

Do you really think that if God manifested onto the Earth in human form that he'd run a grubby little cult like this?
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:56:34 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: And there were also
Message:
ashram-premie only meetings, where the theme was, 'YOU are the ones who have dedicated your lives', 'YOU are mine' and when the ashram were demolished he said 'I'll always know where my ashram premies are and will be able to call them'.
This last quote was reported to me by David Passes when I last saw him about 2 or 3 years ago.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 12:04:33 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Ahhh a hook with barbs(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:45:22 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Things have evolved
Message:
on my forum and it's now called The ANYTHING GOES forum.

Robyn worship, sex therapy, bad jokes and flaming are all there. So why not drop in...
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:11:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Lure of the Worm
Message:
I saw the most incredible segment on a nature show about snakes the other night. Check this out. There's this snake that has a skinny, little fake worm on the end of its tail. The 'worm' isn't at all like the rest of the tail. There's no smooth taper, it's just this narrow little white thing stuck on the end of a regular, green/brown snake. What the snake does is lie low in the bushes so that only its 'worm' is sticking out. Then it slowly wiggles its 'worm' exactly as one would expect a widdle worm to wiggle. Slowly, wiggly, wormily, it wiggles, wight and weft.

Meanwhile, there's a lizard watching from a few feet away, enthralled, of course, by the seductive worm. Thinking, as lizards do, with its tongue instead of its brain, it eventually makes a move and goes for the worm. Bad move, Mr. Lizard! In a flash, the snake bites it -- but lets it go -- and the lizard runs off.

Now what was that all about, you wonder for a second or two.

Well, what happens next is almost as 'clever' as the lure of the
worm. The lizard retreats but starts feeling a little ill. The snake, by then, picks up and follows the scent trail and by the time it gets to the lizard, a few moments later, the latter's completely paralyzed and ready to eat. Faster than microwave.

Now, just tell me that this doesn't sure look like the handiwork of some mischievous creator. Not a merciful one, mind you. That was one scaredy lizard staring into those gaping jaws (if I can project a bit). But a clever one for sure.

Anyone who didn't believe in God before seeing this video would be hard-pressed to explain away this marvellously complex mini-ecosystem on any other ground. That is, unless one was familiar with the simple but mind-blowing fundamentals of evolutionary theory.

Sorry to any who this might offend. I just wanted to give a little satsang, you know?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:35:31 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Synchronicity and Dogs
Message:
Did you see the one where the dog knows it master is coming home even though she was miles away?

What about the show demonstrating how human males thrust their penises deeper during intercourse when their wife is not faithful to them, in an effort to ensure they are able to father children (in competition, albeit unconsciously)?

I wish they had more math shows, though. Don't you?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 02:48:12 (EDT)
From: Mick
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Synchronicity and Dogs
Message:
Does that mean that if your having sex with your woman and you find yourself thrusting deeper than usual, that you should stop for a moment and give her a slap?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:56:31 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Synchronicity and Dogs
Message:
Interesting how the worm story made you think of penises. Oh, and my take on that story is not that he wants to father children, he just wants it to feel better for her so that she comes back to him for the better sex...
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:04:15 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Synchronicity and Depth
Message:
The show's take was that it was to increase the chance of procreation.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:18:01 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Procreation and Depth, OT
Message:
Hey Run,

That's funny because most guys I know (not necessarily in the biblical sense of the word) are the first to mention the A word when procreation is the consequence of recreation.

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:23:45 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Synchronicity and Depth
Message:
Yes, that's fine, but the point is you're more likely to procreate with her if she likes your technique better than your competitor's!
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 03:38:46 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Depth and Dogs
Message:
Actualy, that particular show was about research showing that women are more likely to cheat with an egg ready to be fertilized.

Doen't anyone like dogs but me? I guess talking about sex is more fun.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 06:27:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Depth and Dogs
Message:
Dear Run,
I love dogs and so does Helen! She is dog crazy! :) I read your post yesterday but can't remember the dog part, only the sex part. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. :) I guess your right, sex is more fun than dogs.
The thing I do that brings me a peace similar to someone who gets peace by going to church, is to take my 2 dogs and spend the day way back at a beautiful creek. I don't usually see evidence of human beings and just become a part of the natural setting. It is glorious and feeds my soul and makes me brown at the same time! :)
It wasn't so peacefull the day Kenya tangled with a porcipine though.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:08:33 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Sex and Depth
Message:
So, when it's time for peace, sex doesn't work?
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:17:29 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Sex and Depth
Message:
Dear Run,
That's not peace, silly, it's piece! :) Hopefully the peace doesn't come till after.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:56:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: My, how very interesting!
Message:
Did you see the one where the dog knows it master is coming home even though she was miles away?
What about the show demonstrating how human males thrust their penises deeper during intercourse when their wife is not faithful to them, in an effort to ensure they are able to father children (in competition, albeit unconsciously)?


No, I didn't see either one. How very interesting, I'm sure. But tell me, though, is there something particular about either of these alleged phenomena that you find relevant to my story? Because, if not, it would appear that your only reply is to change the subject and, if that's the case I'd ask you why you're doing that? Does the story make you uncomfortable somehow? Does it bore you? Is it old hat, or something? Or maybe you think that its not an example of apparent design in nature and that I'm just imagining things?

I wish they had more math shows, though. Don't you?

No, not really. Thanks for asking, though.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:21:55 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Synchronicity and Dogs
Message:
Jim, to be honest, I think of it as you wagging your wormy little tail at me. But, again, to be honest, I watch a lot of those shows.

I wish there was more variation. The majority of scientific programming is nature/evolution-related.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:43:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: I admit it
Message:
Run,

I'd be lying if I didn't think you'd react to my mentioning evolution again. But, then, I've grown to expect that. That doesn't mean I shouldn't post these thoughts nonetheless, does it? There's no use going through a whole argument about it again. I think it's especially relevant to many of the issues around Maharaji, you don't. So what's new?

As for why so many of these shows are evolution-oriented, if indeed that's true? Well, for one thing, I'm not sure it is true. I can tell you this show about the snake never mentioned evolution. The narration was just about how wonderful and bizarre the snake was. But, assuming you're right, there might be a few explanations, not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Maybe it's got to do with the networks' perception, right or wrong, that peoples' interest in evolution is growing or something. Maybe it's a function of scientists pushing this kind of broadcasting for whatever reason. Maybe the subject matter lends itself more to visuals than some other scientific topics. Maybe it's just a cult. Dunno.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:12:30 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: My perenniallysquabbling
Subject: Synchronicity and dogs..?
Message:
Bullshit!

I appreciate that you and you (Jim and Run) have some kind of dispute going on, that keeps reappearing over many threads, and which involves maybe more than mere differences of opinion on matters of scientific or philosophical whatchamacallit. But on this one, I really need to say some of the kind of stuff I usually say - just for a change... Not taking sides, as such, but generally agreeing with Jim, sociopathic mind-virus that he is...

Best evidence for pets 'knowing' their masters - or indeed their mistresses - are about to return home comes from Rupert Sheldrake. First class degree in Biology from Cambridge, no less.Quite an academic pedigree, for sure. Newton, Darwin, Crick and Watson etc...

He is also a born-again Christian with a nicely-selling line in popular paperbacks and an antiquated Lamarckian perspective on evolution. Ever heard of 'Morphic Resonance?' Yeah, that's his big theory - and people love it, in spite of it being total bollocks. Because they want to believe it - same thing as usual...

I am trying to avoid off-topic discussions, but if anyone wants to take me up on this subject, I'll go the fifteen rounds...
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 18:49:50 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: nigel
Subject: Love you both...
Message:
So let's have no tears before bedtime, eh?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:52:35 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: I doubt most TV shows...
Message:
and so if you want to argue this one, you'll have to take it up with the show's producers.

I'm not sure that we have a running argument or not, although we've had a few and I'm not shy about getting into another one. The specific points I've made about some of Jim's previous posts are still in the last archives, so I won't try to rehash them.

More to the spirit of your post, there are studies from Stanford about psychic phenomena that have some interest for me. But there's plenty of garbage quasi-science about psi stuff on tv that's not worth much.

I do find that a lot of scientific programming contains a nature theme which makes evolution a bit more marketable. Then there's the Bible as history, Egyptology, followed by psych/sociology. I think the shows about sex do stick to an evolution-related line (altho correct me if I'm wrong) where propagating the species (or in that case, being the propagator) is very important.

What type of science do you teach or research, Nigel?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 09:23:24 (EDT)
From: Dung Beetle
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Lure of the Worm
Message:
Just reminded me about hearing dung beetle satsang from LOTFU ad nauseum
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:08:32 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's satsang
Message:
Jim, no one but the bongo in the back fell asleep during your satsang. But I saw one brother giving one sister soulfull looks across the room. They did not seem to be paying a lot of attention. They left after arti looking pretty blissed out I think they were going to have some private satsang. Jim, I will give your satsang 5 Bhole Shri's.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:17:44 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: g's mom
Subject: Jim's satsang
Message:
Dear Jim,

I read the story, I just kept thinking,

Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila! Lila!

But then, what do I know about it?

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:32:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Jim's satsang
Message:
Victoria,

What do you mean?

(By the way, G-mom, I thought that was pretty funny. Thanks.)

But Victoria, what do you really think about this? Or do you want me to tell you about the beetle first?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:19:15 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's satsang
Message:
Oh Jim,

Now you are making me think! When I read the story, it just seemed like God's play, who are we to understand such perfectness? (Perfection?) I guess I was being sarcastic and acting on auto-response...dismissive of such heady concepts as merciful gods and evolutionary biology.

There are so many stories like this in our observations of nature. I especially like the chameleon-like stories where the insects and animals are able to disguise themselves from their prey and predators by blending in with their surroundings. Then there are those who boldly show their colors, just like waving a skull-and-crossbones at the helm.

By the way, who ever thought God was merciful? There are so many stories along that line too...'Why hast thou forsaken me?'

I really think there is no God, life has evolved in just these interesting ways.

As an English major in college, I learned to interpret stories and allegories and symbolism in whatever way I liked at the moment. A case can be made for this or that, or both, and on the third hand, etc., etc. I learned how to support any side of an issue.

I'm just tired. I don't believe in any of it, anymore. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I believe in my children, my marriage, my aging parents, the neighborhood kids. I am no longer particularly spiritual or intellectual. Life is good. Focus on what is concrete and 3-dimensional. Thoughts and feelings are as inconstant as the moon.

Love,
Victoria

P.s. If you are talking about the dung beetle, there is a terrific story called 'The Metamorphosis' by Franz Kafka where Gregor wakes up one morning as a dung beetle (frequently mis-translated from the German as 'cockroach') but actually a Scarab beetle, where, caught up in the shame of his house, he could not fly to the sun...but then, that was back when I wrote poetry. Just writing e-mails and forum posts and checks and memos and, lately, a little bit of html code, these days. Also signing birthday cards, Mother's Day cards, etc. Living from holiday to holiday as Tia suggests, and rather liking reality, sanity, normalcy.

What will you say about the beetle? Tell me, I'm listening.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:34:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: The beetle story
Message:
Apparently, there's this beetle that looks just like another beetle except it looks like it was drawan by a seven-year old. That is, viewed from above, its got the same outline as the other but none of the details. The legs and antennae, for instance, look they were just roughly sketched out. Like one of those Motorola cell phone costumes you see people wearing outside cell phone stores, waving to cars as they pass by. They kind of look like cell phones but not really.

What gives?

If you then look at the side-view of the beetle you notice that it really isn't a beetle at all! It's a termite with a whole fake beetle balloon growing on its back. Its legs and antennae aren't very detailed because they're not really legs or antennae. They're just props.

Again, I'd excuse anyone coming accross this bizarre feat of nature for thinking some creative designer had thought this trick up. I mean, how else would it get there?

Anyway, for what it's worth, for those interested, natural selection actually does fully explain such phenomena -- without resorting to any such designer.

I jsut thought that show about the snake was pretty incredible, that's all. Incredible proof of this point, anyway. (Unless, of course, God did design the snake.)
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 13:58:59 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The beetle story
Message:
Oh,

The termite in beetle's clothing! Kind of like the wolf in the sheep's clothes, ay? Or Maharaji in a Krishna costume...

Yeah, interesting story, thanks for posting it.

V.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 19:20:12 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: The Dung beetle satsang
Message:
So who's going to let me in on GMJ's Dung Beetle satsang?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 22:36:02 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Denise
Subject: D. beetle satsang Denise et al
Message:
Oh Denise,
It is just about a Dung Beetle who is in a room where, by chance an M video showing is about to begin. The beetle doesn't expect to be moved by the video, but damn if it isn't. It starts on a quest to bring television, VCR's (does M use DVD yet?) and M videos to Dung Bettles the world over. This is an industrious little beetle and before you know it there are M videos in every pile of dung from one corner of the glob to the other.
Love,
Robyn
PS That is why M can say so many recieve K per year when it seems like there are very few humans, they are mostly Dung Beetles.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 22:49:14 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: D. beetle satsang Denise et al
Message:
Oh, Robyn

That is very funny. I don't remember a dung beetle satsang, but I know the significance of the dung beetle. The dung beetle spends its whole life rolling up balls of shit and pushing them around (maybe even up hills? because I remember making the connection to The Little Engine That Could, haha). Anyway, the dung beetle is actually the Scarab beetle, from Egyptian symbolism, which spends its life pushing shit around and in the end, spreads its wings to fly up to the sun (god-Ra). In other words, the lowliest of creatures even, merging with god in the end, going about its shitty task all its life long and getting to merge in at the end...even such that the scarab or dung beetle is really some kind of holier-than-thou creature, having accepted its fate in life, but still gets there in the end, where we all want to be. And you see lots of scarab jewelry, you know, a shit beetle carved in gold or jade or whatever. Sorry, I'm kind of fuzzy on all this, it was years ago I hung on these stories.

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:11:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Victoria
Subject: D. beetle satsang Victoria(OT)
Message:
Dear Victoria,
Well, I knew I'd heard of the beetle but couldn't remember anything about it. Thanks for the facts but I like my version better! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 17:30:58 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fake penis
Message:
I just heard about a bird who had a fake penis. As you know birds don't usually have penises. After much dancing, sex lasts half an hour and then the bird actually has an an orgasm, unheard of with any other species of bird. It only goes to show it's all in the mind.

Another interesting thing I was told today completely off the topic of birds. 'Before disillusionment there must be an illusion.' Food for thought.

Bye for now. God still sits on his throne.

Liz
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:20:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Liz
Subject: Fake penis
Message:
Dear Liz,
You are so funny, or is it me...
'As you know birds don't usually have penises.'
I hadn't a clue! I will have to look it up on the Internet! Must be out of the loop on this. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:29:22 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn/everyone
Subject: I grew a penis this weekend!
Message:
Now that I have your attention!
I read that book River Out of Eden by Dawkins which said that Charles Darwin stopped believing in God because of some disgusting insect that lays its eggs in another insect and the other insect slowly dies a horrible death because of these foreign bodies growing inside of it. Darwin figured why would a loving creator create such a monstrous devious critter.

I told this story to my sister and she said, in her best Yiddish accent 'God's not in production, He's in sales.' I about peed my pants when she said that.

The interesting part of the Darwin story to me, is that although he stopped believing in God, Darwin pretended he still believed to please his very devout wife. Could this be because his wife was unbelievably good in bed or because he did not want to rock the boat & create discord? I just thought the fact that he concealed his atheism from her was amusing, although understandable in a time when atheism was considered blasphemy and he would have probably been socially ostracized in the extreme.

Regarding dogs, I had heard about the psychic aspects of dogs. I had a visitation from the spirit of my beloved dog just this week. Actually it was just a dream so of course it was just my subconcious. Or was it?

Dogs are incredible. I was just reading about guide dogs this weekend, how they are trained NOT to obey a command if it means putting their masters in danger. Gotta love 'em.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 16:06:02 (EDT)
From: King Missile
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: My detachable penis
Message:
I woke up this morning with a bad hangover and my penis was missing again. This happens all the time; it's detachable. This comes in handy a lot of the time; I can leave it home when it think it's gonna get me in trouble, or I can rent it out when I don't need it. But now and then I go to a party, get drunk, and the next morning, I can't, for the life of me, remember what I did with it. First I looked around my apartment, and I couldn't find it , so I called up the place where the party was, they hadn't seen it either. I asked them to check the medicine cabinet, 'cause for some reason, I leave it there sometimes, but not this time. So I told them if it pops up to let me know. I called a few people who were at the party, but they were no help either.

I was starting to get desperate I really don't like being without my penis for too long, It makes me feel like less of a man, and I really hate having to sit down every time I take a leak.

After a few hours of searching the house, and calling everyone I could think of, I was starting to get very depressed, so I went to the Kiev and ate breakfast. Then as I walked down Second Avenue, toward's St. Mark's Place, where all those people sell used books and other junk on the street, I saw my penis lying on a blanket next to a broken toaster oven-some guy was selling it! I had to buy it off him. He wanted 22 bucks, but I talked him down to 17. I took it home, washed it off, and put it back on. I was happy again: complete. People sometimes tell me I should get it permanently attached, but I don't know. Even though sometimes it's a pain in the ass, I like having a detachable penis.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 17:52:02 (EDT)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: King Missile
Subject: My detachable penis
Message:
Ya know I could be mistaken, but I think I saw one of those in the new Tupperware 'adult toy' catalog. It's made out of real good durable plastic, like their other products, and is dishwasher safe. Maybe you oughta get some spares so ya don't lose it again. Thats' gotta be embarrassing, dontcha know.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 19:52:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: King Missile
Subject: is a great band
Message:
Have you heard their song 'Mystical Shit'? Just as funny.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 22:12:47 (EDT)
From: King Missile (aka barney)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: is a great band
Message:
Mystical Shit - maybe, maybe not.

Heard Detachable Penis on the radio yesterday. Ah, the good old days.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 00:07:42 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: King Missile (aka barney)
Subject: is a great band
Message:
I have the CD of Mystical Shit, which also has the album Fluting on the Hump, with the immortal song 'Jesus is Way Cool.' Does King Missle still exist?
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 13:09:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: is a great band
Message:
Yeah, I think so. I saw them a couple of years ago and got a new album of theirs some time last year. Often hilarious, sometimes a tad cutsie, still well worth checking out.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
It just so happened that I met a premie today. I hadn't seen him for more than 1 year, and he was a good friend.

We had a lot to talk, and we talked for about 2 hours, drinking tea and coffee.

I can't bare with premies anymore. He was behaving almost exactly like those premies coming here and defending their master every possible way. I feel very sorry for him, and for all these people.

I don't have anything to do with them. We don't live on the same planet anymore. I mean, these guys they don't live on earth anymore. Their new-age philosophy took them somewhere else. I guess I've been there too. I'm lucky I came back. I hope they'll come back too....one day maybe.

I was pitying him. He had the same fanatic speech he always had, pityful. He was feeling great. I was shocked. It's very different than discussing on the Forum.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:52:03 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Why do you pity a premie if they are feeling great? Do you see past this 'great' and feel that you know it's only an illusion?

Isn't there some truth that if a premie practices k correctly that he might feel great for real, and it is only when a premie finds it difficult to practice (which needs to be adressed by M) that the insanity starts? ie. the insanity of mind versus 'spirit.' which shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

Regards,
(still trying to figure things out.)
Liz
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 18:26:56 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Liz
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
The problem is: feeling great is a pathetic way to spend this precious life. I'm not suggesting whips and scourges as a better thing than joy, I'm just saying the pursuit of pleasure for oneself is of limited value to the world, and, ultimately, of limited pleasure to oneself.

It's like those old sci-fi stories I read decades ago, about to become possible in the years to come, in which people could plug in to a machine that would stimulate their brain's pleasure-center...and die plugged in. Why eat when feeling the rush of a thousand orgasms?

Shutting down the troubling rational and ethical centers of your brain to experience thralldom to a (fraudulent) guru may result in occasional bliss, especially when combined with a lot of meditation...but, as the song puts it: Is That All There Is?

I meditate. I even have a guru. But I don't miss the premie bliss of believing I was special because I was one of the few with a pipelie to God. (Jeez, I typed pipelie instead of pipeline. My mistake. I didn't mean to compare premiehood to drug addiction.) That's a very childlike illusion; and it's very precious in a child, the belief that they alone are the center of the universe. But it's not a very becoming trait in a grown-up.

I have a job, I love my job, I feel I am making a difference in many lives with my job. I give up a lot for my family, too. I spend most of my time with my job, family, house etc. When I was a premie, this would have seemed pathetic -- spending time on things that pass away, instead of 'laying [my] treasures up in heaven,' ensuring my own eternal salvation, making sure I saw the Guru upon your death.

Well, I realize all the people I love will pass away, before or after me, and I realize the garden I'm growing will end up being flushed down the toilet, and I realize this whole world will darken and die. But that makes the joys of living all the sweeter. I want to live in the truth: I don't want to just be happy.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:20:03 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Hi Liz,

Consider this: ''Happiness is different from pleasure. Happiness has something to do with struggling and enduring and accomplishing.''

Someone posted this in the Eat Right for Your Type newsgroup I belong to.

Nice post, btw, Gregg.

Gerry--so glad the new moon has arrived.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 20:56:08 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
is that news group related to blood types??
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:21:56 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Hi cp,

is that news group related to blood types?

Yes it is. www.dadamo.com

Enjoy!
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:41:14 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Garden-flushed down toilet?
Message:
What do you mean - 'garden I'm growing will be flushed down the toilet'?

Gerry is this connected to the new moon?

Confused,

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:46:39 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Garden-flushed down toilet?
Message:
O.K. Dah! Just got it. I don't know how my husband (mensa grad)
put's up with my slow brain. Maybe it's because I have slow hands.
Still don't understand about ref. to new moon though.
Maybe I just have too much time on my hands!

Liz
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 19:49:26 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Garden-flushed down toilet?
Message:
Re the new moon. I read a study on violence in prison which indicated that the incident of inmate violence rose significantly during the few days preceding the new moon.

I do find myself overreacting during this time (which has since passed, thankfully) It's just a personal observation, but I wasn't surprised when I looked at the calendar after my latest spasm of irrationality.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:25:16 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Who is your guru?
Message:
Hi Gregg,

I guess this is one of my issues, as Xan pointed out a while ago. Just curious.

Love,
Victoria

P.S. Do you do M's meditation techniques or some other techniques? What is the point of meditation, is it relaxation? inspiration? something else?
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 03:32:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Why do you pity a premie if they are feeling great?

That person was feeling great, and totally centered on himself. He was not caring for ANYTHING except himself. He wasn't even actually listening to me, and didn't want to, whilst I was listening to him. Some sort of 1 way communication.

It's exactly like when you're talking to a person addicted to a drug that's modifying his mind. You speak the same language, you've had the same education, you know the same people, you used to be friends, but he's now living on some other planet. You can see him, and it looks like he doesn't see you anymore.

Plus I know that person, and I know what he wanted to do with his life, more or less. I wouldn't say there is no value to what he's now doing, but he's sort of regressing in some childish way of life. I also know that not all premies are like this. That was pathetic to see. Maybe you could say this has nothing to do with m & k, and that that's that person's problem. The problem is that his life is centerer around his 'spiritual' endeavour, like mine was, and I know that it won't take him anywhere. That what's pathetic I guess. You know that person isn't going to go anywhere beside feeling great whatever happens: what an achievement in life!
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:08:32 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
I would love it if I could feel great no matter what happened in my life! Don't knock that! (Oops, I guess that won't translate well into French. How about: I don't see anything wrong with that)

JM, I respect your opinion.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 12:13:34 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
I would love it if I could feel great no matter what happened in my life! ...I don't see anything wrong with that

Hey Denise,

What's wrong with it is that there is a full range of emotions that we feel as human beings...as a premie, I felt great even standing there at my grandmother's funeral...I felt great even when premie-Michael showered me with lover-like attention for a day or two and then never called me again...I felt great even when potential-aspirant-Vic called me because he liked me and I brought him to aspirant satsang even though I didn't particularly like him... It might have been more appropriate to feel sadness, anger, and guilt in these situations, one after the other. But I was insulated by my delusional thinking, being keyed in to a higher consciousness and all.

Love,
Victoria

P.S. Thanks for telling me about M no longer requesting the reins to your life...I really didn't know, I am way out of touch and don't miss that false happiness at all.
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 15:40:15 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Victoria, I have a teacher in Taos (Lar Short), an american guy who studied with Rudi (Swami Rudrananda) and Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche. The meditation is different that M's, although all forms of meditation are pretty similar in very basic ways. Practicing relaxed focused loving attention is basically a good thing, don't you think? I guess the (mostly Tantric, Tibetan) mediation I've been doing with Lar is less exclusive of the world than I understood M's meditation to be. And students are encouraged to honestly face...accept...transform, maybe... everything about themselves -- including habitual emotional and mental and physical patterns...all in all, pretty different from my cult experience (see my Journeys entry for more info about me me me!) Do you still practice lightmusicwordnectar?

Gregg
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 19:25:42 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: meditation...
Message:
Hi Gregg,

I don't practice meditation anymore. I didn't like it. But I do practice relaxed focused loving attention, mainly with my kids, but sometimes also with my husband and my parents, the neighborhood kids, my sister, my brother...cooking the food, whatever.

Then other times I am very nervous, scattered and kind of pissed off, that's when I just vent my feelings, and also I enjoy cleaning the house in this mood. I think the kids kind of like it when Mommy is upset because that way they can forgive themselves when they do not behave perfectly, know what I mean?

Peace,
Victoria
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:05:51 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Victoria,

You are right in those situations you mentioned. I agree that one needs to be in touch with the appropriate feelings for the situation. However, for me this means not placing too much emphasis on situations that don't deserve it as well. For example, when my boat was damaged and I was freaking out thinking it was the end of the world, I withdrew inside for a while and was able to handle it calmly and realize even if I lost it completely (didn't), what differnece would it really make in my life? When losing money on an investment and getting all upset about it while my husband remains calm and says 'it's only money, we'll make more', it helps to pull my focus off the situation and then view it more clearly. When I read stories in my sailing magazines about people who are sailing around the world and then their boat sinks or gets vandalized to where it's barely usable or some other catastrophe and then they just pull together, get a job in whatever part of the world they are, get enough money for materials and build their own boat in 6 months and continue, I have to be amazed at their ability to bounce back. Some of us become devastated to where we place too much emphasis on a situation and then give up or become temporarily paralyzed by it, when pulling back from the situation is the best thing to do. I suppose that some people might become so angry and bitter that the situation happened, they give up their dreams, return home, and sulk about it the rest of their lives. (I'm so impressed with these sailors, have read about several who've done this) Or a divorced person may just be bitter and angry and never remarry the rest of their lives (I know some of these). Having the capacity to disengage ourselves from situations can be healthy as well as harmful. Deal with things appropriately at the time and then go on. For me, meditation helps to put things in the perspective they deserve.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:13:36 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
Sorry I didn't read the whole thread where you answer the questions I give to you below. I agree with you that having perspective is very important. I do not think M taught me to particularly have perspective. In fact I think my perspective became very skewed with M's non-guidance. SOunds like M helped you find something, not me.
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:08:37 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
How is that possible--to feel great all the time? To feel great no matter what happens? This is a big lie, IMO, that seems to belong to our baby boomer and boomlets generation. Our parents and their parents didn't have this fantasy. Why should we feel great all the time?
M sold us a pack of lies that is totally self-centered and utlimately damaging, IMO. I don't mean to rant at you, Denise, I am just ranting about this general topic of eternal happiness. It fucked us up, IMO. I agree with Gregg that it is a sci-fi Brave New World fantasy, in that book they took this stuff called soma, a drug that made them happy all the time. In that book also, commitment to others was discouraged. This book more and more reminds me of premie-dom!
While it's honest to say 'sure I'd like to feel great all the time' it's kind of dis-associative to actually BE that way. Don't you think?
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 17:39:52 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Talking with a premie
Message:
I just heard the Dalai Lama answering a question about the purpose of life as being to be happy and to make others happy. Do you have a problem with that?

I'm not sure that I fully understand this. But I do know that when I'm suffering there's nothing I would rather be than happy. And when I'm happy there's a lot more chance of making someone else happy.

The part I don't understand is that this is a tempory happiness and surely it's up to each individual to try for happiness much like m says - from within.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 17:01:40 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Dig this one!
Message:
Someone I know has been able to leave Guru Margarine and take up with a new guy. S(he) went to Manilla to pray for 10 days so the world would not fly off its axis.

What we have is much better, eh? REALITY. Good to read your stuff. The new pictures are great.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 16:09:45 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: AKA
Message:
Hi everyone,
Maybe this has been happening right along and I didn't see it but it seems to me that for awhile now there have been tons of AKA's. Personally I am confused and I just read 2 of Katie's posts, to Bill and Gerry stating things were getting a bit confusing and I don't have Katie's and Sir's abilities to figure identities out by writing style. When Moses or Harry etc reply to me I have no idea who they are and it is a bit unsettling. I know it won't stop but maybe you could email me personally and tell me who the heck is who! :)
Gerry, gemini is the TWINS, not the octuplits! :)
Love all of your personal multitudes,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 08:43:15 (EDT)
From: K.B.
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: AKA
Message:
Hi Robyn,
I decided to change my name here.
I thought I would stick to one new one for good.
It is K.B.
After a nickname I've had for decades courtesy of
my high school friends.
Bill Burke
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:21:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: K.B.
Subject: AKA (K.B.)
Message:
Dear Bill, (K.B)
Thanks Bill. I guess asking what it stands for is to much, eh? I'll tell you my high school nick name if you tell me yours. :)
Hey, what was that think you were going to do on Mother's Day, were you just teasing?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:52:17 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: AKA (K.B.)
Message:
Well, Anonomousie (Ana), and Berta and another were me.
Anonomousie was a Jim creation that I picked up after
he had his way with her and threw her away.
I had some success with her but the last post was not.
I'll tell you the nickname story sometime.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:15:25 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: AKA
Message:
Dear Robyn,

I'm glad you brought this up, because I've always wondered who the TERMINATOR actually is?

Any ideas?

Love,
Victoria
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 13:16:13 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Devotion online
Message:
here is some new-old stuff now available for anybody to read:

Devotion

Directly from 'The Living Master', as published by DLM in 1978.

A few excerpts:

What does 'premies' mean? 'Premie' means lover. Lover of what? What do we love in our lives? We love satsang, service and meditation, and the originator of it all, Guru Maharaj Ji.

This is the greatest relationship that ever can be formed. And you call him your Savior. The love you have towards him is greater than you have towards your parents. It's greater than anything. And this relationship is: the Knowledge which is within inside of us has been revealed. And this is the reason why devotees love their Lord so much. Because there has been a relationship formed which is virtually unbreakable.

what my job is, to make sure - if you have surrendered, if you want me to - to make sure that your effort is put in the right place, that what you're trying to pursue in terms of satsang, service and meditation, is right, is correct. The only reason why I'm here is to give you that Knowledge, to make sure that you get that experience. Because it is a beautiful experience.
I want you to have the same experience as I have had. The experience that I have had is beautiful, that I have is beautiful, is incredible. It's constant. It's everflowing. It's gracious. I guess there's really no words to describe it. And I want you to have that same experience.

'Even if I take everything in the world and just multiply it millions and trillions of times and give it to him, it wouldn't even mean a little speck of anything to him. Because what he has really done for me is so incredible, is so beautiful, that how can I ever repay him?'
And the song stops at that point. That's the last verse. That is what we have to realize. But before we can even do that, we have to feel our own experience of Knowledge. And then we have to realize, 'Well, wait a minute. Am I really surrendering myself to Guru Maharaj Ji or not?'

Guru Maharaj Ji never shuts his door on anybody But people shut their doors on Guru Maharaj Ji. And when that happens, man, it's not worth it. Because the reason, the only reason for this body, the reason why apples grow on the trees, the reason why these flowers have bloomed, the reason why we are all here, the reason why the Earth is still rotating, or the reason why there is the ocean, there are the stars, there is a universe, there is everything, goes right down the drain when we shut our door on Guru Maharaj Ji.

I mean, we can slam our little door shut any time we want. But can you imagine if the Lord slams his door shut on us? Of course, we would never be able to compare it. Of course, we will never be able to know it. The only reason is because we really don't know our size. If we really knew our size, we would find that just the suction of the door closing can devastate us. Just the suction. You don't even have to get hit by the door, but just the slamming and the movement can make us just - poof! - disappear.


Talk about love! Who ever said m never taught by fear?
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 14:20:24 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Devotion online
Message:
1978! I was a premie that year! (Joined the ashram and quit the movement, all in the same year: 1978. A long time ago.)

I can't believe I listened to that shit and -- I assume -- swallowed it. Jesus. What was I thinking? (I know, I wasn't thinking...that would be Being In My Mind.)

I guess it's like drugs. The dopamine rush of the ignorant bliss of the festival-wallowing premie was the goal -- and whatever it took to catch that buzz was justified. The crackhead doesn't worry himself overmuch about what it takes to fill his little glass pipe either.

I suppose it's a backhanded testimony to the glorious wonder of the human mind -- that it can, amazingly, somehow, shut down whole sections of itself...by itself...

Anyway, very strange to look back on those demagogic words with my long-recovered brain...
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 15:04:06 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Devotion online
Message:
How well I remember that London 1978 satsang about being a speck of dust and what would happen if Guru Maharaj Ji closed the door. I loved hearing that really strong stuff! It made me feel this really is it, this is GOD, and I really really did want devotion. If he'd have carried on like that I might still be there.

Strange, I'm feeling disappointment that he turned out not to be God.

John.

PS. I've got a box full of old DLM publications. When I have the time and the stomach for the job I'll go through them and see what good stuff I can find.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 03:35:21 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: About 'strong stuff'
Message:
That's also a good sort of stuff that deserves a special page on my site I now realize.

Do you have more quotes of 'strong stuff'?

I'd call this: M talks about his 'power', or something like that, linked to my 'Famous Claims' page.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:04:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: About 'strong stuff'
Message:
I don't have any strong stuff to hand (well apart from a few bottles of rather fine Latvian Vodka), but I have loads of tapes and magazines that just need a strong stomach and a few days of time to sift through. I'm off to Latvia on Monday so it will have to wait until I get back.

John (the only Latvian ex-premie or premie I know)
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:43:35 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Digest of M's teaching
Message:
now fully online!

The Digest of M's Teaching now fully online on my website!

A few excerpts ....

What we talk about is our own inner experience which is generated by Knowledge, not generated by philosophies, not generated by different things; though the scriptures, the philosophies, and those saints who realized this Knowledge have described this Knowledge in a very clear and very simple manner.
This is why we are all here. That Love that we share is not materialistic love. It is not the same love that you have for wife. Of course, there's an incredible rate of divorce. Where does that love go? It all goes down to court, and it gets separated there.

We're talking about the kind of Love that is far superior, far more incredible, and far more unjustified. And that's the word: unjustified. Because, yes, in this world when a person loves something, he says, 'I like it because it's beautiful.' 'I love it because its nice.' But this is a little unjustified, because the reason for this Love is within inside, not outside.

There were Romans - the Romans were there, and what was it all? Luxurious homes, power, rulers, chariots, do this, do that, have this, have that, different types of comforts. Those kinds of benches - of course, I wasn't there, but the way you see them portrayed in pictures and movies and so on - they were like this (indicates an arched seat), and the guy sat there and there was a bunch of grapes in front of him. That's what he was eating. And there was a little kid sitting somewhere with a huge fan suspended from the ceiling, and the kid was going like this (fanning him).
Of course, that's changed. Now we've got canned grapes or grape juice. Now we've got air conditioning rather than having a little kid there. We've got a little gadget on the wall that serves the purpose of that little kid; it's called a thermostat. And it makes sure that you stay cool or warm, whichever the case may be.

The thing is, look, you can sit down and close your eyes and say, 'I don't see anybody! I don't see anybody when I close my eyes. Therefore, nobody exists!' You can make your own little hole and sit in it, and imagine your own little dreams, like people do. 'Okay, this is the way it's all going to be for me. I am happy. All I want is a nice wife. I want a nice home, nice kids, nice job, nice everything. Good friends, and a good neighbor.'
I look at it, and by Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, I have a nice house that has been provided to me. I have a very beautiful family, and I have all these things. But I can clearly see that without Knowledge, for me at least, it wouldn't be worth it. Yes, there would be an appreciation for my wife, for my children. Yes, maybe there might be a little bit of appreciation for a nice house. But without Knowledge, I know that even that wouldn't exist. And without Knowledge I know I wouldn't exist.

It's not the riches of the world. You know, a lot of people think that's what it is. It's not. It's not the world itself, and nothing in the world. It's within us.
But there's so much craziness, and you can just fall right into it. You can see practically that it's like a blender. You're blending something, and all of a sudden you drop a little piece of onion in there and it goes - prrrt! - there's nothing left of it. And you can just see how easy it is to drop into the craziness of the world. Obviously, a lot of people say, 'Well, the world is not crazy. The world is fantastic; the world is great!' Yeah, it is, so far as the Earth is concerned, and the life on it. But there is somethinghappening that's not so great about the world. And what that is, is mind.

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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 04:55:15 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Digest of M's teaching
Message:
'And there was a little kid sitting somewhere with a huge fan suspended from the ceiling, and the kid was going like this (fanning him).'

reminds me of when sampuranand used to fan him with that big heart-shaped fan.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 05:16:45 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jean-Micheal please read
Message:
Hi JM,

Not sure if you have this on your site. You may want to add this. It may provide some insight into prempal's belief system or what he wants others to believe.

'To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge,
and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that
experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember
every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness, where
even you can call upon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that
stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss.'

Guru Maharaj Ji
Hans Jayanti Festival, Orlando
6th Nobvember 1979(Tuesday-day)

Reproduced in Affinity publication. Issue No:54 February 1980
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 05:35:38 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: M's ecstasy!
Message:
OK, maybe this also will need a special page.

Some more juicy quotes?
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:32:58 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FAQ: How many got K in 1970's?
Message:
Hi everyone -
We're are trying to re-write the FAQ for the site, and we need a few numbers to complete the manuscript by the lovely Ms. Helen. Does anyone have an estimate of how many people received K during the 1970's? I know that good records were not kept by DLM back then and that a LOT of people got K in the very early 70's with little or no preparation. But we're just looking for a ball-park figure here.

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:43:50 (EDT)
From: John Cavad
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: FAQ: How many got K in 1970's?
Message:
According to GMJ, it was 'millions' who received his precious knowledge. But I think it was about 50,000 in the West. Don't quote me on that. There are books that speculate on the number, but only GOD knows where they come up with their figures (guesses).

Best Wishes,
John
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 10:51:52 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: FAQ: How many got K in 1970's?
Message:
Hi Katie,
The quotes about M being God in the 'soul possession' thread down below (in a post to Liz from Jim) would be much better quotes for the FAQ pages than the one I put in the manuscript.
The lovely Ms. Helen
(I like that much better than Schoolmistress Helen :P)
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:07:19 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: the lovely Ms. Helen
Subject: Jim's quotes
Message:
Hi Helen -
I can't remember what quotes you used in your manuscript, but I agree that Jim has collected some of the best 'M is God' quotes (J-M has some good ones too).

Jim, if you're reading this, would you care to e-mail me your whole list of quotes? Attribution (time, place) would help, too.

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 21:42:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I just make them up
Message:
So it's pretty hard to date-stamp them.
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 10:22:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: I just make them up
Message:
Very funny, Jim... Can you e-mail them to me anyway? I'm assuming you've got them saved in a file somewhere, or else you've got a hell of a memory (or maybe both?)

Thanks much,
Katie
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 11:11:30 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John Cavad
Subject: FAQ: How many got K in 1970's?
Message:
Dear John,
Nice to see you here again. You were here when I first started posting. I hope things have been going well for you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:22:05 (EDT)
From: John Cavad
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: FAQ: How many got K in 1970's?
Message:
Dear Robyn,
I love you too!!!
John

To ALL my friends in cyber:

P.S. This forum is a CULT in itself. I'm sure most of you recognize that. You're all addicted to it like you & I once were to GMJ. Addictive personalities never really go way, do they? They just change color: Once an alcoholic, now a raving Christian Fundamentalist; Once a Sex-Addict, now a Monk; Once a Premie; now an 'Ex-premie Fundamentalist.' But I'd rather be 'Addicited to Love'...I mean addicted to being an ex-premie anytime of day!
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Date: Mon, May 17, 1999 at 13:04:45 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Addiction
Message:
The nice thing about having an addictive personality is that you don't have to limit yourself in your addictions.

Yours,

TV watching, whiskey drinking, lusting, stoned, money grabbing, sports fan, pistachio munching, newspaper reading, attention seeking, ex-premie.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 12:03:49 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: katie@ex-premie.org
To: John Cavad
Subject: More Guesstimates?
Message:
Hi John! Nice to see you here.

The 50,000 in the West figure sounds like a good estimate to me. Anyone else care to take a guess?
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 13:11:00 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You're off!
Message:
We've already tried to figure this out, 1 year ago I guess, and that should be in the Forum's archive.

The figures were much higher:
100,000 for the US
and another 100,000 for UK, Europe and other western countries.

For France only, it's about 10,000 people who've received k in the 70s and early 80s, and France has always been about 10% of the west (not including the US).
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 14:05:37 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, JM/another question
Message:
Hi J-M -
I knew it was in the archives somewhere, but try finding something in there - it's difficult! Anyway, thanks for the info. Got any ideas about how many people received K in the Weat in 1998? I think we already have the 1997 figure around here somewhere, although maybe it's just the one for North America.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:30:32 (EDT)
From: John Cavad
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, JM/another question
Message:
Up until 1975-1976, I think everyone under 25 years old got Knowledge, or at least the techniques. They were given anyway back then to anybody, any animal or creature who who stumble into any Mahatma. After about 1976, it got very difficult and the numbers went down exponentially. The 100,000 figure is probably propaganda (I read that figure too, written by Premies)

But if you really want to be technical about it: NOBODY EVER GOT KNOWLEDGE FROM THAT SOB - NOBODY. WE ONLY GOT TAKEN!!!!
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Date: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 10:13:53 (EDT)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Easy in the 80's
Message:
John,

Having received K in the early 80's and doing as much propagation as a could early on, I know for a fact that K was very easy to get then. I only met with one initiator once and asked and received the very next day. Also, three other people I know (who I turned on to K) asked and received within a couple days. Prospects were slim in those days. Of course, none of those people stayed with it, except me, of course.
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Date: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 19:44:59 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John Cavad
Subject: Thanks, JM/another question
Message:
Up until 1975-1976, I think everyone under 25 years old got Knowledge, or at least the techniques. They were given anyway back then to anybody, any animal or creature who who stumble into any Mahatma.

This really isn't true. I know that some people received knowledge the first day they heard about it, but that was very rare, even in the beginning. By Millennium time, you had to really beg for it, go to satsang for at least a month (which was EVERY NIGHT) and go through a knowledge selection with a mahatma that usually took a couple of days. Then, you had to agree to surrender your entire life to Guru Maharaj Ji, and in some cases agree that you would cut your head off to receive this knowledge. No, even in the early days, you were heavily programmed and brainwashed before you ever got the techniques. It is true that it became REALLY hard to receive knowledge after about 1977. And for long periods of time, knowledge just wasn't given at all.

I think 100,000 might be in the ballpark for the people who recieved knowledge in the 70s in both North America and Europe, but I think it's probably too high. We used to always say 50,000 in the USA, but I think that number was exaggerated. I think the largest international program in the West was in Florida in 1979, and I think maybe 15,000 attended, and that included people from outside North America and Europe.
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 06:10:14 (EDT)
From: Realized Soul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji In America........
Message:
Lately Maharaji's been sending his henchmen around to inspire the followers and encourage them to generously give their money to his projects. He does'nt have the nerve to directly ask for money so he sends out his cronies.

Just called the local video line and found out Yourmmmmm Weise (sp) is coming into town next week for a two hour 'SPECIAL' program to talk with 'ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE TECHNIQUES OF KNOWLEDGE' and show some 'NOT SEEN BEFORE' 1999 videos of Maharaji and talk about M's projects; a two hour local program with him who is so close to Maharaji, for joy. Also, 'INSTRUCTOR' Raja Ji, Rawat's brother, did'nt know he was an instructor, will be in town the end of the month to do a 'SPECIAL' knowledge review for 'PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE TECHNIQUES OF KNOWLEDGE.' That will also be a two hour local program, with the brother of the living bullshit, oops.

It is said that at one of these 'events' Maharaji's 1999 North American schedule will be announced, what bliss.

More of the Living Toe Cheese to follow.......

Jisatchitanand and Ommmm Agope-whopdygo Brothers and Sisters
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:07:56 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Realized Soul
Subject: Maharaji In America........
Message:
Thanks very much for posting that. What fantastic news. I'm gonna go to America right away so that I can be in the company of these great souls. We are so fortunate, so blessed and Margarini's grace and mercy is so luverly and nice and that. I'm going out now to shout it on the streets...
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:17:03 (EDT)
From: frankace
Email: frankace@bellsouth.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maharaji In America........
Message:
maharaji in argentina june 5,6 & 7
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 04:01:30 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Anth, AJW
Subject: ANTH please read
Message:
Anth I have posted to you thinking you were th eperson calling themself 'usually censored'. I apologise for the mix up but my comments to you still stand.

Jethro
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Date: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 06:15:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Jethro
Subject: ANTH please read
Message:
Hi Jethro,

I must have missed your comments. I'm going to be offline for a few days, but maybe you could email me.

Thanks,

Anth.
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