Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 53

From: Jun 16, 1999

To: Jul 4, 1999

Page: 3 Of: 5



gregg -:- JudeoChristian MonoGuru -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:53:11 (EDT)
__KB -:- Essence? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:23:55 (EDT)
____Helen -:- G is for Guru -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:00:35 (EDT)
______Helen -:- I meant 'status' -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:15:51 (EDT)
______gregg -:- G is for Guru -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:21:16 (EDT)
________gregg -:- G is for Guru (cont.) -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:52:24 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- G is for Guru (cont.) -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:31:58 (EDT)
____________gregg -:- G is for Guru (cont.) -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 21:57:49 (EDT)
______________gregg -:- the extra ordinary -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:36:33 (EDT)
________________KB -:- the extra ordinary -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:18:52 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- the extra ordinary -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:22:56 (EDT)
__________________Gregg -:- The All-Knowing Penis -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 10:28:38 (EDT)
____________________Know It All -:- 10 Commandments -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 14:47:02 (EDT)
______________________Mr. Sinister -:- 10 Commandments -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:52:10 (EDT)
________________________Know It All -:- Love Yourself = Deviance -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 16:53:47 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- The All-Knowing Penis -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:13:05 (EDT)
__________________Jerry -:- the extra ordinary -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 10:37:04 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- the extra ordinary -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 17:56:57 (EDT)
____________________gregg -:- the extra extra ordinary -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 19:49:31 (EDT)
______________________Jerry -:- the extra extra ordinary -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:13:47 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- Hey gregg: more dialogue -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:04:32 (EDT)
__________________gregg -:- Hey gregg: more dialogue -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 23:20:23 (EDT)
____________________Helen -:- Hey gregg: more dialogue -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 10:00:53 (EDT)
______________________Shri Sant Gerry Maharaj -:- Here's a technique for ya... -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 13:13:18 (EDT)
________________________Helen -:- Here's a technique for ya... -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:59:33 (EDT)
__________________________Gerry -:- Here's a technique for ya... -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 18:38:07 (EDT)
____________________________Shri Sant G Maharaj -:- another answer -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:23:00 (EDT)
______________________________Shri Sant G Maharaj -:- Ok,Ok! -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:57:05 (EDT)
____gregg -:- Essence? -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:02:13 (EDT)
______Curious -:- your good guru -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 13:19:05 (EDT)
________Gregg -:- my obscure guru -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:36:14 (EDT)
__________KB -:- Lar Short -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:46:04 (EDT)
____________Bugs Bunny -:- Lar Short -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 08:54:54 (EDT)
____________gregg -:- the bunny's wheel -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
______________KB -:- the bunny's wheel -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:06:49 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Essence? -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:56:52 (EDT)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Up for grabs -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 20:58:21 (EDT)
__Nigel -:- Up for grabs -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 09:06:39 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Up for grabs -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 16:23:05 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- J-M wants this stuff -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 18:04:58 (EDT)
________Katie -:- We have a scanner! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 18:11:07 (EDT)
________Jean-Michel -:- My Thesis on this -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:21:34 (EDT)
________AJW -:- To J-M -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 05:06:02 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- To J-M -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 08:53:25 (EDT)
______Jethro -:- Up for grabs -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:49:12 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Up for grabs -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:31:02 (EDT)

Katie and Brian -:- Unblocking Joey/Nim -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:51:57 (EDT)
__Mike -:- To: Joey/Nim -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:08:20 (EDT)
____Helen -:- To: Joey/Nim -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:22:27 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- Your posts -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 18:31:34 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Marianne (ot) -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 18:55:12 (EDT)
________JF -:- Your posts -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:34:35 (EDT)
__________Jerry -:- Your posts -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 08:56:02 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Your posts -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:24:24 (EDT)
______JF -:- To: Helen and Mike -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:44:30 (EDT)
__Jim -:- That's not good enough -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:28:49 (EDT)
__Robyn -:- Joey -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:02:03 (EDT)
____KB -:- Joey -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 21:34:58 (EDT)
______KB -:- Barney-Nigel -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:12:28 (EDT)
________selene -:- Barney-Nigel -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:23:45 (EDT)
____JF -:- Robyn -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:52:53 (EDT)
______Mariane -:- Forum -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:38:39 (EDT)
__barney -:- that's fine with me -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:26:41 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- that's fine with me -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:43:29 (EDT)
______Selene -:- that's fine with me -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:41:28 (EDT)
____barney -:- changed my mind... -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 04:02:20 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Joey, you need help bigtime -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:37:36 (EDT)
________Dr Reich -:- take off your clothes and get -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
______Mike -:- To: Barney -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:51:50 (EDT)
______Victoria -:- To Barney -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 12:29:37 (EDT)
________JF -:- To Victoria -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 02:42:55 (EDT)
__________Jean-Michel -:- Permanent section for Amtext -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 04:49:38 (EDT)
____________Suite - eeeee -:- Permanent section for Amtext -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 07:44:59 (EDT)
______________Jean-Michel -:- I'll bet ANYTHING -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 08:56:19 (EDT)
______________Joey -:- And I've got a permanent.... -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 00:51:33 (EDT)
______________Suite Tea -:- Suite 200 - Visitors -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 13:33:27 (EDT)
____________Joey -:- Permanent section for Amtext -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 02:12:28 (EDT)
______________Jean-Michel -:- Great (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 06:29:47 (EDT)
__________barney -:- from the records -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:22:50 (EDT)
____________Joey -:- from the records -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 00:28:50 (EDT)
______________barney -:- get real! -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:49:13 (EDT)
________________Joey -:- This is as REAL as it gets!!:) -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 05:01:26 (EDT)
__________________Joey -:- correction -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 06:53:42 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- This is as REAL as it gets!!:) -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 08:32:23 (EDT)
____________________Marianne -:- Peace please -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 14:31:59 (EDT)
______________________Joey -:- Peace of what? -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:15:33 (EDT)
________________________reader -:- irritating bongo premies -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 00:49:42 (EDT)
__________________barney -:- YOU'RE RIGHT! I'M WRONG! -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 14:35:52 (EDT)
____________________Joey -:- you're a riot, barney!:) -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:53:58 (EDT)
______________________barney -:- whoa! -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:23:38 (EDT)
________________________Joey -:- whoa! -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:59:38 (EDT)
__________________________Robyn -:- whoa! -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:28:41 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Bad reasoning, Joey -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 16:26:06 (EDT)
____________________Joey -:- not necessarily....but thanks -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:27:53 (EDT)
__________Victoria -:- To Victoria -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 23:34:13 (EDT)
__Brian -:- Everyone back off -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 13:54:39 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Back off Brian -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:25:44 (EDT)
______selene -:- Back off Brian -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 16:43:53 (EDT)
______Georgia -:- Back off Brian -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 16:58:49 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Back off Brian -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:51:42 (EDT)
____KB -:- Sheriff Block -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:42:38 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Post from God -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:33:48 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- Post from God -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:38:16 (EDT)
__Mike -:- Post from God -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:11:20 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Post from God -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:59:55 (EDT)
______KB -:- Post from God -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 21:38:58 (EDT)

Jim -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:41:09 (EDT)
__Marianne -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:25:20 (EDT)
____JW -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:54:57 (EDT)
__JW -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:58:17 (EDT)
____Marianne -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:17:03 (EDT)
______JW -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:27:57 (EDT)
________Robyn -:- Cathy -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:12:34 (EDT)
__________JW -:- Cathy -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:00:53 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Potty prayer -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:12:22 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- You are in your MIND, girl! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:38:38 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- You are in your MIND, girl! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:00:41 (EDT)
__Mike -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:07:43 (EDT)
____Jerry -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 20:12:55 (EDT)
______KB -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:03:45 (EDT)
________KB -:- Leonardo Da Vinci sez...... -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:06:28 (EDT)
________JW -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:08:47 (EDT)
__________KB -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:01:32 (EDT)
____JW -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:03:37 (EDT)
______Mike -:- The dark side of Gratitude -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:30:20 (EDT)
__RT -:- The dark side of of the farce -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 13:57:25 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- An Indian Pespective -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:20:07 (EDT)

Insomkneeack -:- Dont miss this ! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 06:37:06 (EDT)
__Katie -:- this quoted from JW below (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:53:36 (EDT)

ET -:- How to Post on Maharaji's Site -:- Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:52:57 (EDT)
__ET -:- Oops! Link Here -:- Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:58:33 (EDT)
____billg -:- you forgot to pay the piper -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:04:29 (EDT)
______ET -:- No, really -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:42:15 (EDT)
____x -:- Oops! Link Here -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:39:52 (EDT)
______billgarney -:- Oops! Link Here -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:55:00 (EDT)
________x -:- Oops! Link Here -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 02:22:49 (EDT)
______X -:- Updated Information! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:48:26 (EDT)
________ET -:- Updated Information! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 03:51:00 (EDT)
__________X -:- Updated Information! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 04:25:17 (EDT)
____________X -:- Updated Information! -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 06:11:46 (EDT)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:37:19 (EDT)
__Sorceress Selene -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:46:47 (EDT)
____Curly -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:53:52 (EDT)
______selene -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:05:56 (EDT)
________Curly -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:30:08 (EDT)
__________Curly -:- Selene, now I remember! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:37:17 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- Selene, now I remember! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:37:55 (EDT)
______________Curly -:- Try Curly's recipe -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:12:57 (EDT)
________________Marianne -:- Hi Curly! (OT) -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:35:58 (EDT)
__________________Curly -:- Last days of chain smoking (OT -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EDT)
____________________Marianne -:- Last days of chain smoking (OT -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:20:11 (EDT)
______________________Curly -:- Woof! nt -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:48:24 (EDT)
______________________Robyn -:- Ireland -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:24:51 (EDT)
______Marianne -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:13:46 (EDT)
________selene -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:24:20 (EDT)
__________cp -:- Oh great sorcerous of the web -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:01:28 (EDT)
____________cp -:- Oh great sorcerous of the web -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:16:03 (EDT)
______________pssssst -:- Funny thing. -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 04:47:42 (EDT)
____________Marianne -:- Oh great sorcerous of the web -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:52:35 (EDT)
______________Selene -:- Oh great sorcerous of the web -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:33:55 (EDT)
____Fallen Mary -:- You didn't hear? -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 07:38:46 (EDT)
______Jerry -:- Hail, fellow gamer! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 08:00:57 (EDT)
________Mary -:- Hail, fellow gamer! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:29:52 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Thank you, Selene! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:37:03 (EDT)
______Selene -:- Thank you, Selene! -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:42:23 (EDT)
____AJW -:- Ritual -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:39:50 (EDT)
______selene -:- Ritual -:- Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:32:16 (EDT)
__VP -:- What the hell is going on? -:- Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 21:44:59 (EDT)
____Selene -:- off topic Hi VP -:- Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 21:42:19 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:53:11 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: JudeoChristian MonoGuru
Message:
Interesting stuff from Jean-Michel about GMJ/India. True. The One Way (My Way) thing is pretty much a western (and pseudo-western, as JM's correspondent makes clear) instititution.

Can a guru be one...of many..emanations of...tools of...the Essence? (Not DLM/ELV doctrine, of course) I think so.

The guru is to be used as a tool. True gurus have said as much. You are not here to be used by the guru! That is insanity.

That is what we used to believe. Same as Christians: God is Great, I am small. Guru Maharaj Ji is God, I am Shit. Shit to be transformed into diamonds...by His grace.

What matters is not the 'guru,' what matters is you.

If the guru supports your growth, he/she is a guru. If the guru lays down the line, however simply or lovingly, and expects you to believe it, that ain't no guru. That be a cult leader.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:23:55 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Essence?
Message:
HI Gregg,
The person JM is writing to is a person that
has swallowed the eastern thinking and presents
it as if it had validity.

It is your right to say 'I think so' but do you
want to mix it up on this subject?
The stuff that makes you say 'I think so'
could stand some exercise right?

There are folks standing around here and I
would like to hear thier latest on this
subject also if they are in the mood.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:00:35 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: KB/gregg
Subject: G is for Guru
Message:
Yes, let's mix it up. I understand, gregg, that you are blessed to have some kind of definite humane spiritual teacher. But this 'I-Thou-guru-is there-for-disciple' dynamic is NOT what the majority of gurus are about. Every guru I have researched or dealt with has this dynamic: 'submerge your personality in me, you must do sadhana to burn your ego, you are not worthy, I am the authority, you are nothing, I can ask absurd things out of you but since I know best you cannot question, you will be tested by the amount of blind faith you have in me'
Not sure why you insist that there is a model of a 'real guru' and a false guru. The majority of them seem false just by the fact that they are predicated on having higher staus and authority over others which to me, goes against what human dignity is all about. Why do you feel you have to have a guru anyway? It sounds like your guru is a teacher rather than someone who who are supposedly 'merging' with. I am totally oppossed to the idea of merging and think it's dangerous, and psychotic-making.
Now, this is an intellectual argument, I am NOT attacking you, gregg. You know I like you, man!!! Just felt like I needed to say that since things have been so tense around here.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:15:51 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: I meant 'status'
Message:
Jeez, sometimes I proofread my posts too late and think 'my God, I sound drunk'.
Can't sleep, me mind's all dotty and tired but can't sleep. Took 2 calcium-magnesium tablets and I'm starting to get a little drowsy so I'll go rest now
G'nite forum
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:21:16 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: G is for Guru
Message:
You make good points, Helen. And you may be right. It may be that what I experience when sitting with my guru could just as well be experienced without him...it could be that it is my belief in the process of 'transmission' that allows me to access higher states and that it has nothing to do with him. I know we believed, at festivals, that it all came from Guru Maharaj Ji.

So why do I think this guru is different? Am I a deluded guruholic? (I hear most of you saying 'Yes! You're just a kinder, gentler Rob/Catweasel!')

Well, there's the lack of most of the elements of cultic belief/devotion/behavior, for one thing. I would have to call him a guru because of the spritual thing, the connection with some of the Eastern mystical traditions, but it's more of a teacher/student thing. And not even like that professor who invites the class over to his house and maintains his superiority and psychological distance; it's more like that rare professor who was not much older than you and didn't have a know-it-all vibe, it just happened that he's spent a lot of time researching Peruvian Ethnomusicology and you hadn't.

I don't know if it's possible for a guru with a large following to be so casual, maybe that's when the relgion and the hierarchy develops.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:52:24 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: G is for Guru (cont.)
Message:
Here's another way to put it, from a teacher's perspective. (I teach H.S. English.) I have some students who are smarter than me. (And maybe more talented, more generous, better-looking...)I certainly don't feel superior to them! But I can still teach them how to be better writers. Why? (Or how?)

1. I've lived longer, read more, written more.
2. I've learned specific formats for writing essays/papers which will help them in college (and, hopefully, beyond college.)
3. I've learned some 'teaching techniques.' In other words, I can design situations that will encourage them to think about writing in a new way. (I just remembered, writing this, that you are a writer, Helen, so ya know what I mean.)

It gets a little trickier when dealing with consciousness issues, but I believe the same student/teacher dynamic can exist in the spiritual realm.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:31:58 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: G is for Guru (cont.)
Message:
Gregg,
I guess I would advise you to stand back and look at the glowing description you've given of your guru. He sounds too perfect to be real, and I think you are downplaying him, painting him as a low-key Joe for this audience. That's okay (beleive me I downplay some of my beliefs here too, because I have learned it's futile to argue certain things). I just wonder if your guru has a need to be thought of as perfect and if you have a need to have someone perfect in your life. I wonder if he will fall with a crash off of his pedestal one day.

See, the coolest thing to me about NOT having a guru is that I just get to be a human bean and everyone else is too. God is the only perfect one, but no human is expected to BE GOD (these are my beliefs). And while I think people can minister to one another in times of need, no one should set themselves up as perfect, It's too dysfunctional.

Perhaps if I sat with your guru I would feel an experience, I would feel something special. I would want to hang out with him. Does he give you a high that he is transmitting? It's possible. But is that what it's all about--getting high, having the consciousness in a high place all the time? I struggle with this. I have been reading this really intense Jewish philosophy book, it is just great, and thinking all these lofty thoughts. Meanwhile my daughter is going through some difficult stuff and I think it (the lofty thoughts in that book) are one thing, but the real life of slogging through parenting hell with my daughter is what is really important. If I can't apply these lofty concepts in some kind of practical way to my immediate life, then I am just full of bullshit.

Sometimes I really hope I'm not getting bitter. Life is NOT the rose garden I thought it would be and yet life is so beautiful. It's all worthwhile but it is so much more difficult than I ever imagined. Yet I would not want a guru because I think my life path would get muddled again. Life may be difficult, but my accomplishments belong to me and my lessons are mine. I don't want a guru getting in between me and my life and my obligations and my joys. I just don't get it, I guess, but again, I don't look down on you because you have one.
Love
Helen
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 21:57:49 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: G is for Guru (cont.)
Message:
Great post/dialogue/answer, Helen. But I never came close to using the word/concept 'perfect' to describe my teacher. It's obvious he isn't. He is on his third marriage. Not perfect. To put it in an Americonsumeristic light, he provides a useful service to me. Like other friends, he isn't perfect. Like other service providers (my Ethiopian Christian mechanic), we don't share all the same values. I don't think he is more perfect than me; I just think he has spent more time than me applying himself to spiritual studies, so he can help me in that area. You and I both think that's important. We both think we need outside guidance. Text, teacher, friend, nature...?

As far as getting high in the presence...absolutely. Getting high is not the point. Whatever you learn from a seminar/training/retreat (or, hypothetically, a festival) has to work for you in family, work, recreation, dream, etc., or else it ain't worth shit.

This dialogue is nice; I enjoy hearing someone personally question my beliefs...I, also, question yours, and believe that either of us could be wrong or both of us could be right. Not to be excessively value-free or nothin', but, there is not one path to Heaven: we've all learned that!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:36:33 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: the extra ordinary
Message:
A thought I was thinking a few minutes ago whilst sorting laundry and thinking about which tights were my daughter's and which tights were my wife's...

Part of the guru problem is that we think of the spiritual realm as something extraordinary; thus, a spiritual teacher must be similarly otherworldly. However, the truth about spiritual work is that it is about disabusing ourselves of counterproductive programming and opening ourselves to a very ordinary reality. Hence, the Teacher does not have to be a Superman. S/he just has to know the technology. How to open. Slot A into slot B. Etc.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:18:52 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: the extra ordinary
Message:
'very ordinary reality' would be...

It is a good subject, what would you say right now about
the nature of 'v, o, r'?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:22:56 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: the extra ordinary
Message:
Your definition of spirituality as opening to the ordinary is a good one, I like that.

I really don't have any big issue to address here. I mean, if your spiritual teacher floats your boat, go fer it. I think I am just weary of the whole new age business and particularly male teachers who think they have the answers. I wonder if this guy's wives thought the same thing--ha ha, sorry, just a little question. I have just encountered too many blowhard spiritualist types who want to make a buck off of everyone. So I guess I'm prejudiced. Your guy is probably a great guy, and different from whatever mold I have in my brain.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 10:28:38 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The All-Knowing Penis
Message:
Yep, that's a male thing all right. The Know-It-All syndrome. One of our gender's least attractive features. Solving problems by killing people is another guy thing which I'm not real proud of.

(A couple of days ago here in Colorado a man going through separation took his 3 daughters and killed them, drove the bodies to the police station, opened fire, got killed by the cops. A state background check would have kept him from buying a gun -- because of a restraining order on file -- but that state check was abandoned last spring. Too constraining on our freedom to purchase weapons, I guess. Meanwhile, our politicians want to solve our problems by posting the Ten Commandments in our schools and stop flag burning. Of course, the flag is kind of a graven image, so...)
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 14:47:02 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: 10 Commandments
Message:
Now Gregg, what is WRONG with posting the 10 Commandments in schools? Don't you think that it will inspire students to respect their teachers and parents???? Don't you think it will keep them from burning that all important symbol of freedom, especially freedom of speech and the right to protest stupidity, the American Flag? Most of all, can't you understand that once the commandments are posted in poorly funded inner city schools, that all the students will be admitted to Harvard and Yale when they graduate? You are so ill informed, Gregg!
Love, Know It All
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:52:10 (EDT)
From: Mr. Sinister
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: 10 Commandments
Message:
I was reading the 10 Commandments by the light of perpetually burning American Flags last night, and I noticed that much of the rules regarding one's neighbor have to do with property; one's wife and livestock are contained in the same sentence. Actually, the commandment regarding adultery was understood differently by Moses' original audience than we tend to understand it. Adultry was only committed if one had sex with a married woman; un-married women were fair game. This is because women were property in that culture, not equals. I think that they should post 'Love your neighbor as yourself' on the school walls instead.
Mickey th oops! I mean, Mr. Sinister; yeah, that's the ticket, Mr. Sinister!
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 16:53:47 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Mr. Sinister
Subject: Love Yourself = Deviance
Message:
Now Mr. Sinister, or Mickey the P, as you are better known: Didn't our former Surgeon General Dr. Jocelyn Elders get into trouble for part of what you're espousing --- the abomination of self love? As Father Leary (good name for a priest, wasn't it?) used to tell me in the confessional, my hand would get all hairy and I would break out in horrible acne if I 'loved myself', and everyone would know it. It was as good as being marked with a scarlet letter, in this case letters: SL. How dare you mislead our youngsters into such corruptible behavior! You and that Gregg deserve each other.
Love, Know It All
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:13:05 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: The All-Knowing Penis
Message:
Yes, I heard about that case,,,it was well publicized here ..very sad. I personally have no problem with the 10 commandments, they float my boat much more than a guru, I think if more people followed them the world would be better off. As for whether they are patriarchal (as someone intimated below) I had never really thought of that. I guess they don't belong in a school, separation of church and state and all that. However I think the schools are trying to teach character and values to kids these days and I think it's great!

My beef with male teachers is a few 'gurus' and so-called spiritual teachers in my own life as a spiritual seeker, who were in it for trying to bed young naive girls, and trying to dominate women, which I find really reprehensible.Many of my personal 'teachers' (authors I admire) are men (such as Scott Peck and Walker Percy). I don't think men cannot be good teachers. I just think men in a position of AUTHORITY can use that authority to dominate women in a way that can do lifelong damage.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 10:37:04 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: the extra ordinary
Message:
Your definition of spirituality as opening to the ordinary is a good one, I like that.

I don't. To me, spirituality implies being in touch with something infinite, divine, EXTRA-ordinary, not something 'ordinary'. Trying to blend 'spirituality' with 'ordinary' confuses matters. It redefines the word and I prefer to leave words in their understood context. Otherwise, they lose their meaning and communication becomes impossible.

BTW, thanks for earlier compliments. Allow me to return them. I read all of your posts because they frequently have valuable insights. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 17:56:57 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the extra ordinary
Message:
Well, ain't we just the mutual admiration society here, sweetheart? (;
As far as opening to the ordinary, I do see what you are saying as well, but maybe the definition of spirituality that I like is 'opening to life as it really is', to me spirituality is not just about bliss or rare moments of mysticism, but dealing with the everyday and ordinary with grace and a good attitude. When I learn how to do that I'll let you know!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 19:49:31 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: the extra extra ordinary
Message:
Jerry, I agree with you and I agree with me. The spiritual realm is something special. BUT to define it as something special unfortunately implies that is is something apart from...everything else. Everything else being everything we know!

The reason some people talk about the Divine as being 'ordinary' is to try to negate the idea that the Divine is far away from us, always to be searched for, and only to be glimpsed in 'special' moments.

Ultimately (I hate that high-falutin' word), the extraordinary suffuses the ordinary,or, rather, is no different than the ordinary. It is our relentless searching and traumatic/dramatic outlook that keeps us from being who we really are, that keeps us separate from that which we are never actually separate from.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:13:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: the extra extra ordinary
Message:
It is our relentless searching and traumatic/dramatic outlook that keeps us from being who we really are, that keeps us separate from that which we are never actually separate from.

Well, I agree with you on this. Just taking stock of what is does invigorate life. I'm no longer searching, myself. That's a burden I'm no longer troubled by. Now, I just want to understand what's under my nose, my existence, my feelings, my consciousness, how I came to be, etc. I've found that science is much better suited to providing answers along these lines.

Gurus don't really know. They've just got simple theories that are rooted in the ignorance of ages past. And some wisdom. The ancients weren't idiots. They just didn't have the base of knowledge and tools at their disposal that we now have, just like I'm sure we don't have the base of knowledge that our descendents will someday have.

But only science seems to advance in knowledge. Other fields of study, like religion and mysticism, are just stuck in the past, struggling against science's discoveries until, reluctantly, they surrender to the truth of it. Then they have the audacity to say that science only proves what they knew all along.

I think the latest example of this is in quantum mechanics where new agers are saying that it proves that consciousness is the source of all things. I don't fully understand quantum mechanics, myself, but what I think I understand proves no such thing.

Anyway, I'm a science buff. That's where I look for answers.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:04:32 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Hey gregg: more dialogue
Message:
I think we agree on many things, but we are coming from differnt traditions-- your Buddhist/Hindu view , my Judeo Christian view. You have said All the spiritual teacher needs to know is the technology: how to insert slot A into slot B, he or she doesn't have to be a Superman you say.

To me the role of a spiritual teacher, minister, or rabbi is to inspire others to look at god or at life in a different way (maybe that does imply a shift in consciousness of some kind). Let's say I am really in a negative state of mind, angry about everything I don't have, so I go to the synagogue or church and listen to the minister talk about some topic, or I read some inspiring book. My attention turns to all the blesssings I have and I emerge from the place of worship renewed, a different attitiude and outlook in my mind. In this sense I agree with you that the rabbi or author or minister doesn't have to be a Superman.

He or she has to be able however to transmit some of the teachings of the religion to others in a very practical way and to give examples that are very practical & applicable to real life. I think that this is more than technology, this ability to inspire & connect with others. Because it is a living, spiritual exchange between people. God is in that living exchange, that exchange does not come with an instruction manual like putting together a table from Ikea. It is not inserting slot A into slot B, that is reducing God and humanity to machines, IMO.

But I think we agree that what shifts is our consciousness or how we look at our life or a problem.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 23:20:23 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Helen and Jerry
Subject: Hey gregg: more dialogue
Message:
Helen, I second that emotion. The priest/rabbi/guru has to be able to inspire and give practical instruction. When I talk about spiritual 'technology', I guess I'm reflecting my scientific background (I was raised by wolves...I mean, scientists). I mean to simplifiy, rather than mystify, the language. I believe there are techniques whereby you can help accelerate the process of understanding yourself and what is around you, and ultimately, to erase the distiction between the two; not to dissolve in an infantile state on non-differentiation, but to truly relax into what is.

And Jerry, I agree that the New Agers half-baked appropriation of quantum mechanics (which I don't understand either), is stupid and reprehensible.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 10:00:53 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Hey gregg: more dialogue
Message:
I agree with what you say. I think I am resistant to the idea of 'techniques' anymore (for understandable reasons). Just because I think that it reduces the sort of vast infinite mystery of God and humanity and creation into a kind of rote mechanics. Also because a certain guru sold me a bunch of techniques which are nice for what they are but didn't really answer the deepest questions of my heart, mind, and soul.

The non-differentiated infantile stuff is exactly what I am resistant to in eastern religions.. Anyway, I am not that nit picky that I am going to pick you apart. I just enjoy talking about this stuff. I think you're great. It's so nice to talk about this stuff without it becoming a 'fuck you asshole' kind of thing!
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 13:13:18 (EDT)
From: Shri Sant Gerry Maharaj
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Here's a technique for ya...
Message:
It's called self inquiry and it's from the advaita tradition. You simply keep asking yourself ''Who am I?''

See Poonjaji, Ramana Maharshi, Arjuna Nick Ardaugh, Gangaji, Byron Katie, Catherine Ingram (sp), and nondualism, for a start. It's all on the web.

Talk about changing states or ''moods'' Self-Inquiry is very powerful, indeed. And it helps to have someone guide you a bit in the beginning to get started. Once the habit becomes entrenched, things happen!
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:59:33 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Shri Sant Gerry Maharaj
Subject: Here's a technique for ya...
Message:
OY!! tell me more, what is it that happens?
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 18:38:07 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Here's a technique for ya...
Message:
OY!! tell me more, what is it that happens?

You turn into a jerk like me !!!!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:23:00 (EDT)
From: Shri Sant G Maharaj
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: another answer
Message:
Can't tell ya, you have to experience it for yourself. Heard that before?

Seriously, the problem is, and what causes a lot of unnecessary suffering is our extreme attachment to our identities. Our identities, which are composed of a lot of mental programming for which we are not even aware or responsible. Like that non-sentence I just wrote and can't figure out how to fix without a dangling participle..

When you start to see there is no out there, out there, you tend to relax, go with the flow and accept things as they are. The war's over.

Of course, I'm still a baby in this, tend to forget to ask and get all wrapped up in my stuff. Which is fun and is ok, but it's nice to have a home base, too.

I got a big blast of bliss when I was first asked this question by Nick Ardaugh in a talk he held in Seattle. It was very nice, much better than anything I experienced in the cult.

Asking yourself this question can lead to some interesting spaces, and Gregg can probably give you a better answer. Did you check out any of the folks I mentioned?
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:57:05 (EDT)
From: Shri Sant G Maharaj
Email: None
To: hell-on-wheels
Subject: Ok,Ok!
Message:
Asking yourself this question can lead to some interesting spaces

Like the day I woke up with this attitude (for lack of a better word) towards myself as something other than a body. (I know, elemental and probably weird) but anyway, all morning I was saying things like: ''does the body want to eat breakfast? Does the Gerry want to go for a walk?'' That kind of stuff.

It was fun. And I could pop in and out of it at will. And then I started twitching, and shaking and the drool was rolling off my chin, until Patty slapped the shit outta me and I came back to earth.

Just kidding.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:02:13 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Essence?
Message:
Well, yeah, I guess I've kinda 'swallowed' some of those'Eastern' ideas too. There are some on this site who scorn gurus in general as a result of their experience with GMJ (and among those, there are those who dis all transcendental reality and those who think there's more out there/in here but it don't take no guru to show you the light), and some, like me, who think that there are good gurus and bad gurus.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 13:19:05 (EDT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: your good guru
Message:
Who are you talking about?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:36:14 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: my obscure guru
Message:
A guy in New Mexico named Lar Short. From an eclectic mostly Buddhist background. A small-town small-time guru. Like Phil's Pharmacy vs. Wal-Mart.

Not looking for converts! I use him as an example to support my contention that not all gurus are charlatans. Although it is undeniably true that certain professions such as politician, Amway salesperson and guru count more charlatans among their ranks than do nurse, electrician and child-care worker.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:46:04 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Lar Short
Message:
He Gregg,
Ask Lar if he thinks the 'essence' is self aware.
Ask if there is an origional self aware intelligence
that is not a deceased human but was there and
self aware before the wheel was constructed.

Ask him-in buddist thought, there is places on a wheel
and after the last one, there is a oneness that is not
self aware, is that what he thinks also?

And then ask, if that is so, would he complete
buddhist cosmology by providing an answer to my
question 'who built the wheel?'

The buddhists I know think there is no self aware
origional intelligence and can't answer the
wheel question.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 08:54:54 (EDT)
From: Bugs Bunny
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Lar Short
Message:
Answer the wheel question, doc!
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: the bunny's wheel
Message:
I'm sorry, but I read your post several times and still couldn't follow it. Could you simplify for me? I'm not sure what you mean by the wheel.

G
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:06:49 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: the bunny's wheel
Message:
Just ask him the first paragraph.
He will be able to answer.
If he is unfamiliar with the wheel, that is
certainly ok, it is the key tenet of buddhist
thinking, but maybe Lars buddhist involvement
was in some other vein.

I think he will be very familiar and will
like answering.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:56:52 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Essence?
Message:
I'm sorry, Gregg. I think gurus are con artists. All of them. I don't think they've got anything to offer but themselves as idols to be worshipped by unknowing, unwise devotees. Surrounding themselves with doting disciples is a boost to their egos. And for some of them, it pays damn good.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 20:58:21 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Up for grabs
Message:
While digging through boxes of junk (I am a natural-born archivist; I keep everything until Mona makes me toss it out), I discovered a sheet titled: 'Guru Maharaj Ji What is His Knowledge?' It has a photograph of the Lard as a little fart dressed in his Krsna costume playing a flute (was that his Hallowe'en costume?). Inside are all 13 verses of Arti in English and Hindi or Gujarati or whatever language it is, and the back page has all the 'Twameva mata' stuff. It goes into the recycling bin or to whoever wants it. It is very wrinkled, due to my great respect for this stuff. If I come across anything else, I'll let you know.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 09:06:39 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Up for grabs
Message:
Hi Mickey,

Don't you mean 'pretending to play the flute...'?

(Actually, I only really wanted to add my best wishes to those below regarding your Panamanian adventure. So Mickey and Mona, take care and enjoy yourselves out there. I look forward to seeing you back on the forum later in the year.)

PS: regarding what to do with the old DLM materials: do they have adequate stocks of toilet paper in central America..?

All the best,
Nigel
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 16:23:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Up for grabs
Message:
Hi Mickey,

Being an analy-retentive historian, I've got a great collection of old DLM mags, paraphanelia, cassette tapes of conferences and programmes. Every so often a message would go round that everything should be handed in (tapes, videos etc), as the party line changed. Something made me save all mine.

So don't throw it away, I'll put it in a cardboard box with all my other stuff.

I'll email you my postal address.

Anth the Hoarder.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 18:04:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: J-M wants this stuff
Message:
Anth: Jean Michel seems to be one of the main group historians. I think he wants this stuff. Email him about it.
BTW, I just re-read your Journey and was totally overwhelmed by it. It was alternately wonderful, hilarious (the toilet factory), and exhausting (trip to India, etc.) Your contribution to our shared history is very important.
Marianne
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 18:11:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Marianne
Subject: We have a scanner!
Message:
We did finally break down and buy an official ex-premie.org scanner, so if anyone has anything worth scanning for possible use on any ex-premie site, e-mail me for an address to send it to. I promise to forward/return it to anyone (we've got, and I am not kidding, a whole trunk of DLM memorabilia here.)

Take care all -
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:21:34 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Marianne
Subject: My Thesis on this
Message:
Yes thanks Marianne, I need this stuff.
I'll just scan it, and send it to the archivist.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 05:06:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: J-M
Subject: To J-M
Message:
Bonjour Jean Michel,

Perhaps we should compare archives of material that avoided the book burning years.

Anton le Bibliotec
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 08:53:25 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To J-M
Message:
OK, why don't we make a list?
I'll try do this, one of theses days when I'll have some spare time home....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 23:49:12 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Up for grabs
Message:
Hi Anth,
I've also got loads of old stuff. The messages to destroy/hand things in somehow never reached me. It was very interesting, sopme years ago, when I met an aspirant who when I told her about prem's Indian history (LOTU etc) said that when she told Belkis and others it was totally denied............so I showed her Satguru Has Come.

All the best Jethro

PS Did you get my last private email?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:31:02 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Up for grabs
Message:
Mickey
I didn't know about you leaving (been out of it for a while)
This is sad and good for you I hope. I only read VP's msg below so I don't even know details but I want you to know how much you have helped me.
Obviously we have different takes on religion and all, but you, know, I feel close to you because you do believe in something, somewhere. Best wishes, Selene
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:51:57 (EDT)
From: Katie and Brian
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unblocking Joey/Nim
Message:
Hi everyone -
We just received the following e-mail from Joey F/Nim and he gave us permission to post it (we've edited it but retained the pertinent portions). Anyway, we're unblocking Joey AND the Internet Cafe he was also posting from (he says the croissants there are great, BTW.) And we hope that we all can start afresh without pre-conceived notions about the other ex-premies who post here.

There has been a lot of upset here lately and it's time to step back and let things settle back down to where people can use this forum for its intended purpose - not to needle each other, but to be supportive of one another. Remember, we're all in the same boat here.

Take care -
Brian and Katie

Here is the message from Joey/Nim:
I'd like to make it clear beyond ANY doubt, that I myself would NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES actually, physically pursue barney, track him down and cause physical harm to him, nor would I seek to engage others to do it on my behalf. Although in retrospect I can see how my statement could be taken as such, and I therefore erred in expressing myself incorrectly and inappropriately.
[snip]
So, I hope and trust that you forgive me for this. As you know its very difficult for people who have effectively been 'silenced' to explain themselves.

I hope that what I've said so far makes it very clear to you, that I did not intend physical violence for barney. In fact, I'm genuinely embarrassed by the fact this has emerged as a concern for people on the forum, as those who really know me, know that I'm not that kind of person.

True, I have to accept responsibility for this, and I believe the meanness, even viciousness of my cyber-'nimrodian' personna hasn't helped. Yet I believe that most people understand where alot of thats coming from...26 years of cult funk swimming around in my head unchecked, entrenching itself, reproducing even more cult derived funk.... and then of course the 4 years at Amtext being part of it, where 2 and 1/2 years were nothing short of a gut wrenching emotional and psychological nightmare of 'NEIBURGERIAN ' proportions.
[snip]
Katie, it was important for me to reply to your question (and I believe that I have done so) because I sensed a bit of anxiety in your concern about the situation in general and my well being in particular. I hope I addressed those concerns, because I really wouldn't want for this feeling to persist on your part, or anyone elses for that matter.
[snip]
Thanks for caring,
and
love,
Joey

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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:08:20 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Nim
Subject: To: Joey/Nim
Message:
Nim: This quote from your email says it all, 'I have to accept responsibility...' This is one area where WE have it 'all over' the active cult members AND M! The ability to admit a 'public' mistake and rectify it in 'public' seems to elude them. I, for one, was very happy to see the contents of your email. Thanks for allowing Brian and Katie to post it.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:22:27 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: To: Joey/Nim
Message:
I agree with Mike. Nim, I always thought you were fantastic and I was worried about you, man! I see this as a big sign of health that you could stop the behavior you were involved in and apologize about it. Despite the shit that goes down here sometimes, we are a community and we need to support one another.

I hope you are alright.
Love
Helen
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 18:31:34 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joey/Nim
Subject: Your posts
Message:
I would hope that you would also apologize to me. I am worried about you.
Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 18:55:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne (ot)
Message:
Hi Marianne,

That's my email above. But just to let you know, I'm not at home, I'm at work where I don't have no email nothing.

Also, the typing window on my computer here is so small, I make even more typos than usual.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:34:35 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Your posts
Message:
I would hope that you would also apologize to me

Marianne,

I should point out to you that in my earlier email communication with Brian and Katie yesterday, no mention was made by them of a need for apologizing for any 'nasty' comments that I may have made to anyone, as a condition for my being reinstated on the forum.

They did ask me to communicate with them regarding certain comments that I made that were perceived to be 'threatening' in nature. I referred to my own email to Brian and Katie,as a 'clarification' of my actions and not as an 'apology' for them.
Apparently it did suffice and I do appreciate that.

Now prior to your entry into the regrettable foray of two days ago, I was in a post to Sir DAVE, expressing serious reservations of our previous webmaster. I felt no hate in the situation, in as much as I felt really marevellous(delightful croissants and cafe au lait at this internet cafe, surrounded by a few gorgeous babes in the place:), I felt in control of the situation. I wasn't going to express any hate towards anyone, but I was fully intent on directing some questions to Sir D, regarding certain standards he was expecting premies to uphold, that I felt the then webmaster of our site was not upholding.

Now, true, I was posting under the alias 'someone you all hate',
(a takeoff on Catweasels posting as 'someone you all love')but only because I COULD NOT post under my own real identity having been blocked by barnie in one fucking sham of a move,supported by Jim's rather smug, even supersilious approval of his actions.

But at the moment of directing my post to Sir D, I was as without hate as anyone could be. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I swear to you, it was like,
' I can see clearly now, the ....'(actually, I forget the lyrics...what is it that goes away..the 'rain' or the 'pain'? hmm, whatever)
And that was how I was feeling.
THERE WAS NO HATE-
Then you Marianne chime in with the following.

I don't know who you are, but whoever it is, I dare say that I hate you. Where you got that idea is a mystery to me. Up above you sounded like the cat. If it is you cat, I don't hate you. I just have scrupulously avoided talking to you since you insulted me. That does not mean I hate you.(emphasis my own, Im sorry, but I couldn't resist:)

In retrospect Marianne, but only in retrospect, I really shouldn't have been so pissed off by this statement.
I mean rereading it now, I think its a real panic!!:):)
But really, do you still want the apology???

As far as the rest goes, I'll email you in a couple of days when I get a chance.
I just want you to know that I'm sorry you felt hurt by certain comments I made to you, and I have absolutely no doubt that we'll be able to work it out. I actually think you're terrific!

In the meantime,
Take care and all the best,
Love,
Joey.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 08:56:02 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: Your posts
Message:
THERE WAS NO HATE

What you expressed toward Barney was hate. You called him a pornographer and accused him of harassment, all with the intent of shaming and belittling him in front of the other members of the forum. That's hate.

I can understand you're getting upset that he blocked you from the forum, but if I remember correctly, Barney offered to settle accounts with you, privately, by email. Instead, you just continued your senseless assault for all to see. That being the case, since you had no intent to settle your problem with him in a civil manner, Barney had every right to block you. And through all of this, not once in your tirade, did you fill any of us in on what your problem was. You just stalked him like a madman.

I'm sorry, JF. I don't think anything's been resolved. It's just seething under the surface. I think you know that.

I'm just posting my feelings on this because I think Barney could use a little support. He took on a tough job and not once did you seem to recognize that. Now, thanks to you, what I'm sure started out as a challenging adventure to him has turned into a nightmare.

I think you might need some help.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:24:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Your posts
Message:
Dear Joey,
I read your post to me, and the rest of that thread that I hadn't read, when I was up in the middle of the night. I thought it was sweet but something didn't set well with me. I didn't know if it was just my own fears of violence that I mentioned or what. I didn't reply because I wanted to think about it. I had since thought that although you never did anything personally to me and that I have felt a caring toward you that your post to me would not in and of it self wipe my feelings that I stated in my 'Joey' post to you and that only time would tell how I was to come to feel toward you, if my reservations about you would abate or not.
I do know Barney outside of this forum and have we have emailed on occasion. I know him to be a good person, not perfect I am sure but a good person. When I read Jerry's post just know I have to say I agree with it. I think I did mention to you that I thought you needed to sort through this situation, your feelings, your status with Barney and Marianne beyond your email that was partially posted here. It is that feeling that Jerry has voiced here in a more clear way than I had.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:44:30 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Helen and Mike
Subject: To: Helen and Mike
Message:
Helen and Mike,

Thanks for your support and for your focus on the positive, as I've tried to somewhat ease the tensions caused in recent events surrounding my, er..um ..blockages, lets say:)

Both of you really add so much to the specialness of this place.
Rather than lecture about 'commeraderie'.... you guys just make great commerades!!:)

Thank you again,
and,
Love to you both,
Joey
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:28:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: That's not good enough
Message:
Joey,

If you're reading this, I think you need to do a bit better than that. You got it in your head, somehow, that Barney isn't really Barney (no, that doesn't work.) hmmm.....

Okay, you got it in your head that Barney was deceiving us all and, apparently, you in particular. Without coming right out and saying it, you appeared to suspect that he wasn't really an ex at all, etc., etc. I think the triggering mechanism was that he didn't seem to treat your Amtext reports and the prospect of doing something about that whole sordid scene with sufficient seriousness or attention.

Now I talked with you around then. I, too, just like Katie has, told you that I'd spoken with 'Barney' a couple of times and that there was absolutely no reason in the world, as afar as I could see, to doubt his sincerity. I asked you to articulate your reasons but if you gave me any I can't recall what they were. They obviously didn't strike a chord with me.

I then reminded you how you treated Denise. There, too, I asked you to articulate your reasons for doubting her sincerity and this time I remember that you basically resiled from your position, admitting that you didn't have any good reason for doubting her. I thinkyou even subsequently offered her an loive branch. Is that just my imagination or am I remembering that right?

So now you've gone full tilt nuts over Barney. And yes, Joey, 'nuts' is exactly the word for it. If your anger, suspicion or call it fear of him isn't rationally supportable it's irrational. And if you can't get a handle on that prosepct then you've lost all objectivity with respect to your thought process -- just when you need it most, perhaps -- and I'd say you really do need help.

Joey, your paranoia might indeed be situational. It might be fully attributable to what you've gone through with the cult, how recently you left and your final dealings with Amtext. But even if that's so, it's still paranoia. It still feeds on itself and, as you can see, tears the fabric of your life just when you need to be mending it.

Look, you crazy fuck, Barney is your friend. Like you, he was caught up in this guru bullshit. He understands like I do, like Selene does, like JW does, like we all do. We're a small group of people who actually understand what it was like to be in this cult together. Either you want that comradery or you don't. If you don't, take care, have a good one, etc. Good luck, though, trying to find anyone who understands or cares about this bizarre black hole you've stepped out of.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:02:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: Joey
Message:
Dear Joey,
It was good to read the portions of your email posted here. I agree with Mike that it is a big step in stepping away from that cult thinking, no need for accountabilty in the cult but this is NOT a cult as some premies would try to make us believe.
Personally you really scared me for your own well being and just because I have a bad history with irrational anger and violence in my own past. I do hope you try to sort this out for yourself, beyond this email. I have felt a genuine caring for you Joey and now I am a bit leary of you, not that that information would effect you but I just am telling you how I feel. Writing this is kind of facing my own fears.
I really hope also that you do set things right with Barney and Marianne in private, I mean I am not looking for a showing of your soul for entertainment. I just hope you want to get beyond that paranoia or whatever it is and heal it.
Love and best wishes to you,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 21:34:58 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Joey
Message:
I missed the posts in question and when I
get to them I will skip past them.
I have benefitted by Nim posts in the past and
I expect to in the future.

I find alchohol or lack of sleep or certain eating
habits will make me easier to anger and other
moods I dont want.
Perhaps there is one of those in the mix?

Very useful forum here for us.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:12:28 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Barney-Nigel
Message:
I havent a clue as to why Barney would be on
anyones shit list.
I think he is great.

When I was mostly out of the cult my mind
made on last stab at premie loyalty and
maybe others go through that also.

No doubt we have been saddled with some
severe burden by the nasty rawat clan.

Posing as a premie can perhaps be deadly
as the MIND can play tricks on us-oops!
that raawat logic again.
Some can post as a premie and be safe but it
is not impossible for old views to strike home.
I myself got stoned for the first time in
years a couple weeks ago and guess what came
rushing back, premie mindset.
I rode it out and then had to see through it and
debunk it. Christ, pot is like acid these days.
How people (shp) smoke regularly is beyond me.
Maybe the old hallucination came back to Nim.
It can be strong, we sure had a huge dose of
false reality.
I suspect that CD smokes pot and that is part
of the hold that still has him. The hallucination
of rawat reality. It is an illusion.
When we believe it we are called delusional.

Nigel has made some good posts about this,
Maybe he should repost a couple?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:23:45 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: Barney-Nigel
Message:
Regarding Selene where are you? You havae my email
I don't think any of this is all that big a deal and do not understand why you do. But if you want to speak with me you know how to find me
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:52:53 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn
Message:
Robyn,

I thank you for your post and for sharing your feelings with me as honestly as you did, despite the hurt you sense my recent actions on this page have caused you.

I agree with you when you say that 'this is NOT a cult' and yet I'd ask you to consider that only last Sunday, I was summarily, without warning, blocked from participating in this forum by our previous webmaster.

Now to be honest, he of course had his reasons. I had posted three or four messages that could easily be described as 'mocking' in tone of our previous webmaster, of whom I suddenly can not bring myself to say ANYTHING... (SELENE, where are you ???
the protection ritual for barney...its paralyzing me!!! Can you do something ? Make an adjustment maybe? Thanks. JF. sorry Robyn)...and Jim of course... of whom I'm sure I could say plenty, but I won't right now:)
The fact of the matter Robyn, is that IN THE CULT, I could imagine if ever a situation arose where I would similarly mock the 'perfect' master as I mocked our own webmaster, I would similarly be banned. This has already been proven (Gail).
BUT THATS THE CULT ROBYN, AND LIKE YOU SAID, THIS IS NOT A CULT.
So what happened? Why was I banned for laughing at or mocking our webmaster? And without warning?
Robyn, I ask you to think about it. Catweasel was given more consideration than myself. I think I shouldn't have to make the case, that it should be the other way around.
I can only express my appreciation to Brian and Katie, for their prompt, caring and wise efforts to reverse this situation and in establishing the channels of communication, so that my right to participate in the forum could be restored.

Robyn,I'd like to address a few other points in your post.

You said,

Personally you really scared me for your own well being and just because I have a bad history with irrational anger and violence in my own past. I do hope you try to sort this out for yourself, beyond this email. I have felt a genuine caring for you Joey and now I am a bit leary of you, not that that information would effect you but I just am telling you how I feel. Writing this is kind of facing my own fears

This information DOES affect me, and considerably so. I've always had the highest regards for you Robyn, for the human caring and sweetness that you bring to this page. And if apologies are in order, I Will apologize for this 'leary' feeling that my actions have caused you, and anyone like yourself on this forum.

I also want to let you know, that I'll do my best to work out whatever it is that has to be worked out with barney and Marianne, so that regardless of the outcome , the wellbeing of the forum will be safeguarded.

I hope that in addition to my email to Katie and Brian, what I've had to say to you in this post, will help ease that 'leary' feeling somewhat.

Again, I think the world of you and am truly sorry, that you've been hurt in any way by this.

Take care,
And Love,
Joey.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:38:39 (EDT)
From: Mariane
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: JF
Subject: Forum
Message:
Joey: You can email me if you want. If it's all just water under the bridge, that is ok with me. I'm not one to hold a grudge, and I sincerely like you -- always have --- so if you just want to put it behind us, that is ok with me. If you want to discuss further, email me.
Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:26:41 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Katie and Brian
Subject: that's fine with me
Message:
I have always enjoyed Nim's posts. They have been very interesting and insightful. Nim would certainly be missed by all.

Nim does not need to apologize to me.

I'll probably be a little less frequent as I'm a bit burned out and I have some items that need immediate attention.

Thanks to all for all your kindness and putting up with my clumsy efforts to stear the great ship. And apologies for any upset I caused to anyone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:43:29 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: that's fine with me
Message:
Barney,
I missed a lot of what is going on, but I'm sure your efforts were much needed and competently performed. The interactions that are problematic don't really have anything to do with you as I see it.

I'm still figuring out what has been going on, but I think that you and Nim both share having been committed to M for long periods of time and having left relatively recently. It's not easy to leave a relationship, particularly a one-sided relationship with a mass abuser. It's equally dificult to come out with conventional social skills in tact.

Nim and you have both given us a lot. Nim really turned the place around with his expose style posting, and you have contributed greatly with your computer wizardry (which I hope continues in some way).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:41:28 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: that's fine with me
Message:
Hi Runamok
You are so right about how the abuse has left it's mark. Barney and i left the fuckface around the same time I think. and Nim is even newer out. Every time I think I'm OK I relapse into some sick behavior, or at the very least some lousy fucking thinking patterns. The ok times are getting longer but the bad times never seem to completely fade away.
Thank you for that post. It meant a lot to me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 04:02:20 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: changed my mind...
Message:
After reading JF's post I'm the hell out of here.

What a total crock of shit!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:37:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Joey, you need help bigtime
Message:
Joey,

You really need to see a shrink and fast. You're falling into classic paranoia and there's nothing anyone here can tell you to pull you out of it. That's my opinion for sure, 'lay' and all that. But I'll tell you, it's based on more than this maelstrom you've whipped up over Barney (and, by extension, me, too, I assume). It's based on how you sounded last time I talked with you. Flat, no sense of humour, irrationally irritable. I found you to be all those things, quite frankly. It was really difficult to carry on a conversation with you.

Joey, you need help. Get it. Quit trying to defend yourself here. That's not the issue. People are more than prepared to like and accept you for all you've got to offer and, as many have said, you're much appreciated here in many respects. But now, fella, you're just exhibiting signs of mental instability. Do something about it. You owe it to yourself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
From: Dr Reich
Email: None
To: Nimrod
Subject: take off your clothes and get
Message:
on the coach, Joseph.

Vat we have here is the classic ''post traumatic stress'' syndrome not ''paranoia'' as my esteemed (but 'lay') collegue from the Peoples Republic of Cananda has surmised.

Herr Nimrod, late of the guru wars, is just needing a bit of rest. Some rythmic breathing and a poke or two at his paraspinals, and he'll be good as new.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:51:50 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: To: Barney
Message:
Barney: Don't allow anyone's post(s) to influence a decision to leave. You belong here as much or more than anyone else. This can be worked out and probably will be, if you can give it a little time. You know.... baby and bathwater? ;-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 12:29:37 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: To Barney
Message:
Hey Barney,

I think you were doing a great job as webmaster and I've appreciated your posts all along.

I think Nim is like Catweasel in the sense of needing to be the center of attention. He has criticised all of us on the forum, we are all a bunch of hypocrites he said recently (as Dormina) and in his responses on this thread he hasn't really taken any responsibility for his actions. He also mentioned what fun he was having with all of this. People are freaking out here and he's having fun. Hmmm.

He takes up any and all support offered, and admittedly saves the rest for later, as he indicated his comments in re Jim would not be aired at this time. He was incredibly mean to Denise, also, who hasn't posted here in a while either.

He seems to feel that he is not given his 'due' here, and some time ago made a big deal out of leaving the forum because of it. But, you see, he didn't leave. Not even for one day.

Nim's Amtext stories were and are appreciated, but he hasn't talked about Amtext in a long time...he kept alluding to more and more juicy tidbits, and also to a Journeys entry, but we haven't seen them. Maybe Nim is Maharaji???? Or really just a confused person who would benefit from some psychotherapy.

I expect I will be a target for Nim from now on, as he appears to be very good at carrying a grudge, but I just wanted to say that I will miss you, Barney, and I am sorry for the mistreatment you have received on this forum.

Love,
Victoria

P.S. I'm sorry that I can't come out in support for Joey, I hope Joey gets the help that he needs. I just feel that Barney is the victim in this case, and I regret losing him on the forum. I miss Denise, too. I don't think we have to worry about a face-off with Jim, though. =)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 02:42:55 (EDT)
From: JF
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: To Victoria
Message:
He has criticised all of us on the forum, we are all a bunch of hypocrites he said recently (as Dormina) and in his responses on this thread he hasn't really taken any responsibility for his actions.

Dormina did very clearly state a reason for this statement. If my being blocked wasn't a big deal to you, then it was to me.
There was one person, who did recognize that I had a right to be on the forum and express myself here.
And I do thank Jean Michel for this.

He takes up any and all support offered,
Why? Wouldn't you? Whats wrong with support?

and admittedly saves the rest for later, as he indicated his comments in re Jim would not be aired at this time.

Nope. I won't be saying anything to Jim NOW or LATER. I don't believe he's worth it.

He was incredibly mean to Denise, also, who hasn't posted here in a while either.

Perhaps it can be construed in that way.
But what you didn't notice was an exchange of posts between myself and Denise just prior to her leaving us, in which I thanked her for a post that I felt was so thought provoking, I wanted time to reflect on it before I answered.
I remember being away on a business trip and when I returned I noticed what I felt was a truly insensitive post directed at Denise in which one of our posters (I'd rather not mention who, but it WASN'T me) had constructed a song/poem, of which the only line I can remember was 'O Denise, you could have been a star...'. Denise did not reply to that post, and it was the last time she was seen on these pages.
I had grown to like Denise and miss her as well. If this post , along with yours can encourage her to come back, then I would be more than happy(even if she is an ex-premie mom, who sends her little 5 year old boy to school wearing a Guru Maharaji button!!:)

Nim's Amtext stories were and are appreciated, but he hasn't talked about Amtext in a long time...he kept alluding to more and more juicy tidbits, and also to a Journeys entry, but we haven't seen them

I didn't realize I was on a quota system of juicy Amtext tidbits,that I had to deliver to this forum.

You may have noticed though, that I was able to point out to everyone that the Amtext address appeared on the corporate documents of 'Bestway Travel'. I'll get to the significance of that in a moment, but right now, I would like to say this.
When I pointed out this information, barney, WITHOUT even checking the document, made the claim that the information WASN'T valid because the document wasn't current.
This wasn't so. It was most definitely a current document, hand signed by the premie president of that company and filed only last April 99. Impossible to miss.
I had a hard time understandimg why barney would want to negate good solid information, but I'm glad he didn't throw me off track,
because the significance of this information is as follows. The more corporations that we can find with the Amtext address appearing on their corporate documents, the more we can prove that Amtext is not only valuable to m as a major cash cow, but also in providing him with a key oprational resource centre in support of his other operations. And as far as Amtext being right at the heart of the cult, operationally, thats still big news to me. But maybe thats JUST me.

and also to a Journeys entry, but we haven't seen them

A few people did mention to me that they'd really look forward to my Journal entry, but I never really committed to it. What I did commit to, was compiling the Amtext info so that there could be a permanent Amtext section on this site, or on one of our related sites. And you're right, it hasn't been done yet.

Maybe Nim is Maharaji????

Geez Victoria, I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I expect I will be a target for Nim from now on

Nope, you've been a delight here Victoria and I have no reason for that.
But if it turns you on, please let me know!:)

All the best,
Joey
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 04:49:38 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: JF
Subject: Permanent section for Amtext
Message:
Hi Joey,

Maybe Brian is so busy already with ex-premie.org that he doesn't want to start a whole new section for this.

Also, maybe you're not aware of this, but starting a whole section takes a lot.

I'm offering to host it on my website, if you want.

Then there will be 2 separate sections in the EV-DLM Papers:

1 for the Indian background
1 for the financial background

I know this is very controversial, but everyone owns to have information available on this.

e-mail me if you want to.

take care

jm
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 07:44:59 (EDT)
From: Suite - eeeee
Email: None
To: JF & JM
Subject: Permanent section for Amtext
Message:
Good Morning Gentlemen,

Getting a bit crowded in Suite 200!

L,
Suite - eeeeee

xxxxx Biscayne Blvd Suite 200
Miami, FL 33181-2743

AMTEXT (WHOLESALE BOOKS/IMPORT/EXPORT BUSINESS)

EXECUCORP, INC formerly EXECUCORP MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS

COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC

BESTWAY TRAVEL & CONVENTIONS, INC (Registered Agent is at address)

QUANTUM INCORPORATED formerly QUANTUM LEASING CORPORATION

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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 08:56:19 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Suite - eeeee
Subject: I'll bet ANYTHING
Message:
Quantum is (or has been until recently) owning or renting or something very close to the Lard's ship (Gulfstream IV)

.....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 00:51:33 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Suite - eeeee
Subject: And I've got a permanent....
Message:
... section for you,
in my heart.

Luv ya Suite-eeeee,

Joey
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 13:33:27 (EDT)
From: Suite Tea
Email: None
To: Gentlemen
Subject: Suite 200 - Visitors
Message:
Suite 200 Visitors List:

SHARK INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENTS, INC

MATTIQUE TILE, INC

NASERA CORPORATION

TECHNOLOGIES & BROADCASTING INVESTMENT CORPORATION

PHOENIX GLOBAL AVIATION

Suite 200 Visitors

1. Click on “Suite 200 Visitors Link
2. On the Inquiry by: Click on Corporation/Trademark Name
3. Type in a visitor from above list in ‘Search String
4. Click on Search
5. Open it up and peruse to your enjoyment.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 02:12:28 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Permanent section for Amtext
Message:
Jean-Michel,

Great news, and about time that we start working on it!:)

Just as the 'Indian Background' section of your site does such a powerful job in exposing the history and belief system of m and his cult, a 'Financial Background' is vitally necessary to fully expose how that history has been about nothing else, other than the building of a RAWAT REICH, or financial empire.
And of course to document how it's been built in the past,and how the cult continues to feed m's wealth today.

You know, sometimes when I think of it, it really staggers the imagination!

So, its a wonderful decision mon ami, and I of course look forward to doing whatever I can to help make it a success.

Thanks again Jean Michel, and I'll be emailing you soon with some good news of my own!:):)

All the best
et a bientot,

Joey
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 06:29:47 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Great (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:22:50 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: from the records
Message:
Joey,

I just spent some time searching the archives to try to find what you and I have a problem with based on what you posted to Victoria:

You may have noticed though, that I was able to point out to everyone that the Amtext address appeared on the corporate documents of 'Bestway Travel'. I'll get to the significance of that in a moment, but right now, I would like to say this.

When I pointed out this information, barney, WITHOUT even checking the document, made the claim that the information WASN'T valid because the document wasn't current.
This wasn't so. It was most definitely a current document, hand signed by the premie president of that company and filed only last April 99. Impossible to miss.
I had a hard time understandimg why barney would want to negate good solid information, but I'm glad he didn't throw me off track,


---My Post---
Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 14:33:39 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Mary M
Subject: for the record
Message:
Yes, that's good information.

I would like to point out and JW can verify this and fill in the details if he wishes, but Linda Smith got out in the 80's and is no longer involved. It would appear that these corporate records are not kept up to date.

Also, Linda Smith is one of the finest people one the planet which is why she left.
---End Post---

---Your Post---
Date: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 16:43:45 (EDT)
From: Nim
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: for the record
Message:
I would like to point out and JW can verify this and fill in the details if he wishes, but Linda Smith got out in the 80's and is no longer involved. It would appear that these corporate records are not kept up to date

Barney,

I just went over to the Florida Division of Corporations and got a look of the front page of Bestway's most recent annual report, filed with the Florida Secretary of State on April 8, 1999, and hand signed by its president, Manuel Jorge Dominguez of Miami Beach, Fl. on April,5 1999.
This most definitely is a current corporate document and I invite you to check it out for yourself.(You know I'd send it off to you myself, but my computing skills aren't quite there yet)

AND, FOR THE RECORD,
the 'current registered agent' shows up as Linda Smith and her address again is the one of the Amtext office.

Question
If Linda Smith 'got out in the 80's', then why is her name showing up as the 'current registered agent' in 1999?
And one more.
Why does her address show as the one for the Amtext office?

Anyone?

Nim
---End Post---

Joey, as it turns out I was mistaken on this item. I was operating under the assumption that Linda Smith had left the cult in the 80s. Apparently, that is no longer the case based on the Corporate Records.

When looking at the information on Bestway I did see the dates. The information about Linda Smith threw me. And in later posts from others it appears that Linda Smith lives in Florida and is most likely deeply involved in the Cult.

However, in no way was my intent to throw you off the track as you say. I was only trying to reconcile the information about Linda Smith. All of this is a puzzle that we don't have all the pieces to. Asking such questions is not a bad thing to do. In fact, it is vital and necessary for us to attempt to check for consistency.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 00:28:50 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: from the records
Message:
barney,

Good evening to you, wherever you are, and welcome back to the forum, pal! Great to have you back!!:)
And I thank you for making yourself available to clear up this little incident of three weeks ago, in which, as I just asserted in my prior post, you sought to negate good solid information that was coming onto the forum.
The frank admission of your error only now, and your alibi about being thrown off by the appearance of Linda Smith on the Bestway document, (when you had it on JW's word that she was OUT of the cult) while plausible, does not diminish the effect of your action and its impact on the forum discussion ,specifically...to cast doubt on good solid information when it was coming onto the forum.
And barney, I'd like to ask you this question

Simply put,
Why couldn't you admit your mistake THEN?
It certainly would have done much to clarify and support the truth of the matter, that the document was indeed a CURRENT and VALID one, which was obfuscated to begin with, ONLY by your regretful entry into the discussion.

or, in other words...

... at that point when your frank admission of your error would have been most helpful on this matter... why instead did you choose to do a Wadi Sue and ignore it all together?

Now a second question.
barney,
What does the term... the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth mean to you?
Now you've just said as follows.

Asking such questions is not a bad thing to do. In fact, it is vital and necessary for us to attempt to check for consistency.

I agree. The only problem is you WERE NOT, IN FACT, asking questions for the sake of consistency as you've just now again mistakenly put it.

YOU MADE A FALSE, MISTAKEN STATEMENT WHICH ONLY SERVED TO CAST DOUBT ON GOOD SOLID INFORMATION COMING ONTO THE FORUM.
Here it is:

I would like to point out and JW can verify this and fill in the details if he wishes, but Linda Smith got out in the 80's and is no longer involved. It would appear that these corporate records are not kept up to date(emphasis my own)

There are no questions asked in this statement. I think its pretty clear.
You simply made an erroneous statement ( again these records WERE CLEARLY UP TO DATE) perhaps innocently at first, who knows...but then once others had caught on to your mistake...you could not, or would not, or for whatever reason did not, admit your mistake (re: the up to dateness of the document in question) THEN, when it would have been most helpful for us in our quest for the truth about m and his cult.

Its a serious mistake when you think about it barney, especially for a webmaster.
Its even more serious, that now, when I've questioned your integrity, you attempt to deceive us all by saying that you were merely asking questions for the sake of consistency, when you clearly in fact, were making an erroneous statement.
Now thats 'from the record' barney.

O fuck barn, there's one more thing.
WHICH part of your post is TRUE?

The part about being mistaken in your statement that the document appeared to be out of date,
OR,
the part about you asking questions(which again you clearly DID NOT) for the sake of consistency.?

You see barney, even if you can convince us that it REALLY was a question you were asking in the form of a statement lets say,
then still,

THESE TWO CLAIMS, made in your above post in this thread, CANNOT BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
Logically, rationally impossible.

And only a premie could believe otherwise.

G'nite barney,
Regards,
Joey
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:49:13 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: get real!
Message:
Joey,

You are definitely looking to continue this conflagration by nit-picking every item down to every minutia that you can muster up from the void.

As average astute reader could have easily connected the pieces in the posts that followed mine that clearly showed that Linda Smith was living in Florida and obviously still in the cult.

I'm not going to bother dissecting your laborious argument in the above post. It's simply pointless.

However, you end with this:

You see barney, even if you can convince us that it REALLY was a question you were asking in the form of a statement lets say,
then still,

THESE TWO CLAIMS, made in your above post in this thread, CANNOT BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
Logically, rationally impossible.

And only a premie could believe otherwise.


Joey, I can see that you are probably never going to drop this crusade that you are waging on me which is completely manufactured by your paranoid delusions. At risk of being blocked myself I will not allow you to go unchallenged in your attempts to discredit me.

You need to step back and consider what you are doing. I won't even ask why because only you know that. However, you are continuning to make a complete fool of yourself here and it is not necessary.

It's completely up to you to stop this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 05:01:26 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: This is as REAL as it gets!!:)
Message:
barney,

You said:
You are definitely looking to continue this conflagration by nit-picking every item down to every minutia that you can muster up from the void.

Nice writing pal. BTW, you sound almost as apoplectic as Nil:)
But of course you haven't answered any questions yet.
So lets see what you come up with next?

As average astute reader could have easily connected the pieces in the posts that followed mine that clearly showed that Linda Smith was living in Florida and obviously still in the cult. (emphasis my own)

Again, in your denial and dishonesty, you're obfuscating the issue, and this isn't going to help.

First of all, there is no such thing as an average astute reader, especially when we consider those massive numbers of 'premie lurkers' we have here.
Premies are NOT average. They are BELOW average.
Premies are by and large not astute either. How can they be? If they were, they wouldn't be premies.
And if they were astute BEFORE they joined the cult, then years of cult involvement and all the gooey miragey funk that comes with it, will take care of THAT.
But geez barney, why do I feel like I have to explain this to you?

Second point. YOU further obfuscate the issue by referring to Linda Smith, the fact that she's still in Florida, and still in the cult.
I'm not now, nor have I been talking about Linda Smith!
I 've been talking about the fact that you intervened into a discussion on the forum, where it had just been pointed out that the Amtext address appeared on the Bestway document, to incorrectly point out that apparently the document was NOT 'up to date.'
And when your point was proven wrong, rather than admitting your error THEN when it would have counted most,you chose to leave the whole subject(of the documents validity and your error regarding it) hopefully as muddled as possible.
And I submit to you once and for all, that where Linda Smith lives, whether she's in the cult or not, has nothing to do with whether a document is up to date or not! Its the dates on the fucking document stupid!!
So fuck your 'average astute reader' concept, and fuck Linda Smith. You aint being honest here boy.

So whats next?

I'm not going to bother dissecting your laborious argument in the above post. It's simply pointless.

Thats just another way of not answering the question and admitting failure. Now lets move on.

However, you end with this:

You see barney, even if...
And only a premie could believe otherwise.


Ah barnie, you're cheating again. Because if you look at my post you'll notice that I did NOT put the sentence,

'And only a premie could believe otherwise'

in bold type. And if you chose to do so, its customary practice of journalistic or even 'post' writing integrity, to add in brackets as follows:

(emphasis my own)

Of course this lack of integrity on your part serves your purpose well.
So now what did I say to you? I'll reproduce the quote in full,
and as I submitted it WITHOUT the bold type on the final sentence.
Here it is:

You see barney, even if you can convince us that it REALLY was a question you were asking in the form of a statement lets say,
then still,

THESE TWO CLAIMS, made in your above post in this thread, CANNOT BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
Logically, rationally impossible.

And only a premie could believe otherwise.


Now thats correct.
You made two statements in your prior post.
You tried to convince us on one hand, that you obfuscated the up to dateness of the Bestway document inadvertently, by mistake. On the other hand you're saying you questioned the validity of the document for the sake of accuracy and consistency.
Now it can't be both, because that would be something only a premie could believe in, so which is it?
But you can't answer , can you barney?

Nope. Instead,we have this.

Joey, I can see that you are probably never going to drop this crusade that you are waging on me which is completely manufactured by your paranoid delusions. (emphasis my own) At risk of being blocked myself I will not allow you to go unchallenged in your attempts to discredit me

Well barney, you're not doing a very good job, what can I say!

And if all you can do in your defense is obfuscate the issue for everyone to see, and NOT deal with questions, again for everyone to see, you're really not going to get too far, barney. Because this relatively minor compared to whats coming up.

And I further assure you, that if you continue to cast aspersions on the state of my mental health,and thats ALL you can do, you're going to fall flat on your face. They do that in a cult, in a gulag, when they don't want to deal with dissent...they call the dissenters 'crazy.' Or suffering from 'paranoid conclusions,' as you just did with me.

But sooner or later barnie, if you refuse to deal with issues, and just keep on calling me crazy, something is going to become pretty obvious to everyone here.

And yes, I do mean EVERYONE.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 06:53:42 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: correction
Message:
The last sentence, in the third to last paragraph of my prior post to barney Should read as follows,

>Or suffering from 'paranoid delusions,' as you just did with me.>

instead of,

>Or suffering from 'paranoid conclusions,' as you just did with me.>

Ya, its not REALLY a sentence, I know.

But hey, who's paranoid about it??:):):)

I incorrectly quoted blarney, and I apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused.

I now return you to you regular program.
JF
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 08:32:23 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: This is as REAL as it gets!!:)
Message:
Not even dealing with or accusing you of faulty mental health, YOU are doing yourself a disservice, Joey, in my heart and mind anyway. I wrote a long post last night and deleted it and am trying to get it to you.
I have tried to write this post 3 times now and have kept deleting it because I am afraid of what you and someone else will do with it, lash out at me I mean. You said you cared how you made me feel and although you aren't threatening Barney now your demeanor is still in that all your feelings toward him are justified. I have started to post lots of posts here and on Sir's forum that I have then deleted. The reason being I am become very leary of being myself in these places and that makes me feel very sad. I just thank god that I have made some wonderful connections with people off the forum(s). I have never felt so uncomfortable with speaking out and it sucks. Because although I am a scardy cat, I also have this need to speak my mind, not a good combination it seems. I mean I have continued to post in total non threatening threads but if I feel you or another person may find objection with my words than I stop writing. Chirst I had more freedom of speech in the cult. I know I had an easy experience there but I spoke my mind, I lived in a premie house, and the day someone tried to get me to do something against my will I left, the house not the cult, but it was my first 'drip'.
Yes, this is a real as it gets. Shit even Jim never stopped me from saying what I felt inside me to as large a degree and we have had our bad moments, I may have felt harassed by him but this is a new and more oppressive feeling. I guess if I just ignored your posts I could delude myself into feeling safe here, I don't know if I want to do that. As I said you are not the only one that makes me feel this way and I don't want to put it all on you, it is the same feeling though, that each of you raise up in me.
The threats are gone but I have to wonder if that is only so you can continue to post.
I too worried about being blocked for entering this discussion which has no more to do with me than striking a chord inside me.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 14:31:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joey, Barney & all
Subject: Peace please
Message:
Joey: Barney offered you an olive branch on two separate occasions here. Please do not belabor this point. We care about you here. I understand your position. I understand Barney's position. You seem to have over reacted to Barney 's explanation of the Amtext post, in my opinion. If you don't think you have, you are entitled to your feelings in that regard. Barney is not the enemy. Neither am I. I have stayed out of this fray for the last day because I did not want to fan the flames. I do not intend to do so by making this post. I think you are being unfair to Barney given that he did try to resolve this with you and admitted he made a mistake.
Marianne
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:15:33 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Peace of what?
Message:
Marianne,

You said,

Joey: Barney offered you an olive branch on two separate occasions here.

Those weren't olive branches Marianne, they were just opportunities to buy into his lies. Its not my problem that you can't understand this . And I'm not going to worry about the lack of comprehension from a person who talks like this.

I don't know who you are, but whoever it is, I dare say that I hate you. Where you got that idea is a mystery to me. Up above you sounded like the cat. If it is you cat, I don't hate you. I just have scrupulously avoided talking to you since you insulted me. That does not mean I hate you.

You also said.

We care about you here

If YOU cared about me Marianne, I really believe you would back out of this , because you're an annoyance, and I feel you have very little to offer this conversation.

You are not an enemy Marianne, only an annoyance... for now.
We'll see where things go with you, from here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 00:49:42 (EDT)
From: reader
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: irritating bongo premies
Message:
used to be welcomed everywhere, leeches.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 14:35:52 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: YOU'RE RIGHT! I'M WRONG!
Message:
Joey,

I'm a little dense. Could you elaborate on the mistake I made about discrediting your solid information about Amtext. I know I was wrong, but I'm still missing a few pieces. Your analysis is excellent, BTW.

I see that you are having trouble sleeping based on the times of your posts (midnight, 5 a.m., and your diligent correction at 6:53 a.m.)

I think that you have exhibited that you are fully competent and Brian should lift his embargo on others so that they may respond to this thread.

Joey, please realize that your obsession with me started before my horrific mistake regarding the Bestway-Amtext-Linda Smith connection. And your obsession came out of nowhere. Please remember that we emailed privately about Amtext.

So, I'd say based on your current demeanor with its sugar coating that EVERYONE should be allowed to throw in their two cents. Sure, this is a distraction to the purpose of the Forum, but I sincerely believe that it is more important for you to realize that you need to get some professional help so that you can deal with your problems. I very much doubt that you will respond to the private efforts to get you to do so.

Politely ignoring your petty diatribes is not doing you a favor. As painful as it is to face reality, you need to do so. Yes, it is humiliating to do so in public like this, but you are ultimately responsible for your actions.

There is nothing wrong with getting help. Forget the stupid stigma that is associated with it. Admitting that you need help is a sign that you are healthy. Or you can continue your righteous denial as you can continue to nit pick me with your tedious over analysis.

Ok, Joey. I won't end this with a cheery g'nite or g'day. You can spend the next hour coming up with an elaborate reply that will be another example of your obsession, but instead analyze this: You Need Help. And if publicly cajoling you do so does the trick then so be it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:53:58 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: you're a riot, barney!:)
Message:
barney,

I'm a little dense

Nope. In fact, you're too clever barney, and I believe people will catch on to that, as well as your fundamental dishonesty and deceit on this forum. In spite of your furious behind the scene email campaign to garner support for your bullshit, laughable, 'I'm a victim of a crusade ' hysterionics.

You're going to have to deal with it, and thats all.

Joey, please realize that your obsession with me started before my horrific mistake regarding the Bestway-Amtext-Linda Smith connection. And your obsession came out of nowhere. Please remember that we emailed privately about Amtext. (emphasis my own)

Now what do we have here ?

Are you threatening to spill my personal emails to you on the forum?
Or in a behind the scenes email campaign?

Go for it asshole, I have nothing to hide!!
Hey, barney, you're the one who's in hiding!

Anything more to say?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:23:38 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: whoa!
Message:
Joey,

I only mentioned the emails that we shared to indicate that at one time we had a trusted line of communications between us sharing a common purpose. And all of a sudden I'm the enemy, the EV plant. Huh? On what basis? For what reason?

No, I wouldn't post our emails on the Forum.

While you are an obviously intelligent person, you have gone off the deep end with this business. You probably feel picked upon and isolated, but you have brought this upon yourself. Your above post to Marianne where you say:

You are not an enemy Marianne, only an annoyance... for now.
We'll see where things go with you, from here.


is really sick and has a tone of threat to it, Dr. Evil.

Answer this, Joey: Have you ever been in a similar situation as this? Is this a pattern of behavior for you? Are people really out to get you? Or have you created this situation?

Prior to your first attack on me, I have always been receptive and supportive of you and have worked with you as our history of emails would indicate. And all of a sudden I became the enemy and you were attacking me for no apparent reason. What is this about? And now you're starting to expand your attack to others if they dare cross your path and call you on it.

You, and you alone, are making the Forum an ugly place. Your skill in pasting our previous responses and adding emphasis is quite developed and shows that you are carrying a lot of resentment around. Yes, you've been hammered here, but you brought it upon yourself with no reason.

You can stop it, drop it and it can all blow over and be forgotten. It's up to you. Just say no and don't even respond to this post and stop attacking me and others for no valid reason. We all make mistakes here like I did with Bestways-Amtext. We all have said things that don't always hold water. It's the nature of a free flow chatroom.

I am starting to see that there is no end to this thing that you've started. I'll stop adding to this thread, but I'm sure that you'll be there attacking me at your first opportunity. Joey, please don't. Just let it go. I am not the enemy.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:59:38 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: whoa!
Message:
barney,

Yes we've belabored this matter sufficiently, and in time we'll move onto others.

In the meantime, I believe your interpretation of my comments to Marianne represents nothing more than your contemptible efforts to fan the flames of paranoia on this forum.

There are other examples of this, and they will be pointed out eventually.

Now whats this barney?

Your skill in pasting our previous responses and adding emphasis is quite developed and shows that you are carrying a lot of resentment around.

At least I point out that the emphasis is my own, as basic journalistic integrity would require. That point is something that would obviously elude someone with NO integrity whatever,such as yourself. And thats why you have a difficult time including (emphasis my own) in your own writing style.

But genius, tell me this, what does cutting and pasting, and adding emphasis, have to do with ' carrying alot of anger around '??? Hmm?

And if you think it does, I think you should be concerned about your own mental state.

You, and you alone, are making the Forum an ugly place

I know where the ugliness is coming from barney, and I'm going for the jugular on this beast. Metaphysically speaking, barney!

Relax.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:28:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: whoa!
Message:
Dear Joey,
'In the meantime, I believe your interpretation of my comments to Marianne represents nothing more than your contemptible efforts to fan the flames of paranoia on this forum.'
When I read this earlier, I SCARED ME! Before I ever saw Barney's reply to you, he is not fanning any flames in my mind. I thought, if I was Marianne, I'd be freaking out if you wrote that to me. I am leaving and removing this site from my bookmarks, like I don't know the address by heart! Damn it! It is all I can do.
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 16:26:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Bad reasoning, Joey
Message:
And I further assure you, that if you continue to cast aspersions on the state of my mental health,and thats ALL you can do, you're going to fall flat on your face. They do that in a cult, in a gulag, when they don't want to deal with dissent...they call the dissenters 'crazy.' Or suffering from 'paranoid conclusions,' as you just did with me.

But sooner or later barnie, if you refuse to deal with issues, and just keep on calling me crazy, something is going to become pretty obvious to everyone here.

And yes, I do mean EVERYONE.


(yes, my emphasis).

Joey,

You've got to know that that doesn't work (the part I emphasized, I mean). Just because cults or 'gulag proprietors' falsely label people mentally ill doesn't mean that everyone who calls someone that is likewise wrong. It just so happens to be that some people who try to get others some sort of psychiatric help do so sincerely. Doesn't mean they're right, of course. Just sincere.

I mean you could be right. Barney may be suggesting you need help for some cynical purpose. On the other hand, maybe not. How can you know? I guess it comes down to 'who can you trust?'

At one point, if I'm not mistaken, you trusted me a bit. I mean, why not? I'm an ex. I'm not out to get anything from you (other than a little background info on our unfortunately late old mutual friend, Dave Wiener). Oh yeah, and of course whatever else we might have to mutually enjoy sharing. You know, you had some great and fascinating cult stories and in particular about Amtext. Well, no point quantifying anything. I'm just saying that you once thought, if I'm not mistaken, that I had no ulterior motives in dealing with you. To that extent, I'm sure, you trusted me. Obviously you don't right now.

Okay, then who do you trust? Who can you turn to for a little objective -- no, that word's bullshit. How about 'arm's length'? -- feedback? You've got to be careful, Joey. Sometimes, as you must know, peoples' defense mechanisms get a little feverish when their stability's being questioned. Especially, of course, when they actually are having some trouble. Ironic but sadly true. Don't forget that.

Joey, if -- and I say 'if' -- you were going through some shaky shit reorienting to things after all your time in the cult I can't see how that would surprise anyone, lay person or 'mental health care professional'. I mean, how could it? Cults fuck with our minds, don't they? Isn't that what all this fuss is about in the first place?

You've got to find someone you can trust whose judgement you're not going to hold hostage to mathcing your own. You need to be able to discuss this matter openly and reasonably with someone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:27:53 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: not necessarily....but thanks
Message:
Jim,

Thanks for a breath of fresh air!:)
I'd like to respond to a few of your comments, but I tell you the ENTIRE post was very much appreciated.

You said:

I'm just saying that you once thought, if I'm not mistaken, that I had no ulterior motives in dealing with you. To that extent, I'm sure, you trusted me. Obviously you don't right now

'Trusted' you, isn't the word Jim. I felt a real friendship with you, and I respected you immensely in just about every regard.
But Jim, I think you know that that trust has been shaken, and being the incredibly bright and fundamentally honest and decent person that you are, I know you wont have much problem in figuring out why.
Just take a second look at your posts in this thread... I won't even bother characterizing them.
Consider how you supported my being blocked by barney, and again I won't characterize what I thought of this other than to say, I hope you enjoyed your brief breakfast in bed with barney. I hope you guys didn't have any plans that I ruined(joke, and only a joke) ACTUALLY, I thought you guys were kind of cute!:)

Okay, then who do you trust? Who can you turn to for a little objective -- no, that word's bullshit. How about 'arm's length'? -- feedback?

Right from the very beginning of my leaving the cult, I've been in touch with one of the leading 'anti cult' professionals in North America. HE's on vacation right now, but as soon as he returns, I'll be asking him to give me the ok to release his name to you guys , and the means that he prefers I use in this regard.
Just FYI, he's never advised me me of any pressing need, or any need whatsoever that I may have for psychotherapy or counselling.
I believe he's never felt the need to encourage me in this direction.
And no need for lobotamies either!:):)
And BTW, I have fully informed him of whats happening here on the
forum( my take at least) and the tirades against the state of my mental health, and he just chuckled and said something like 'typical cult like response'.
He's told me to decide what it is I want to do in this situation on the forum. To think it over, and that if I wanted his help, its there for me.

Cults fuck with our minds, don't they?

O, thats beautiful man!!

Isn't that what all this fuss is about in the first place?

This fuss is about the mind fucking and psychological intimidation,that our stinky little cult and our slimy little
fat fuck you know who is causing right here on these pages, and in the lives of two particilar posters who are participating in this forum, and have brought much to it.
Its about exposing THAT! YES.

You've got to find someone you can trust whose judgement you're not going to hold hostage to mathcing your own. You need to be able to discuss this matter openly and reasonably with someone.

I'll talk to YOU Jim, even now, after I've said that the trust between us has been shaken largely as a result of your own actions, I see no reason to hold grudges with you. No need to make a federal case about anything between us.
We were once friends. We can try to be friends again.
Hopefully the trust could be rebuilt. I think I'd like that.

You've got my number. Email me. Phone me. Whatever.
I'll be available for you.

And thank you for talking to me as my peer. I appreciate that.

Time for a little comic relief, maybe? Ok, how's this?

If barney's my friend as you say Jim, then maybe....Maharaji's my LOVER!!!:):):):)

Take care Jim.

Joey
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 23:34:13 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: JF
Subject: To Victoria
Message:
Dear Joey,

If you don't know whether to laugh or cry, always choose laughing!

I figured it out, Dormina is A Nimrod backwards.

I was just thinking about what it was like for me when I first left the cult. I felt very alone and very depressed. I didn't seek professional help (therapy or deprogramming) at all. I tried a couple of relationships, got to know my mother a lot better, wrote a lot in my journal, then went back to school. So actually, it was 2 or 3 years later that I finally broke down and went to a psychologist. And although I tried very hard to convince him that I was crazy, he really insisted that I was all right...well within the range of normal. ;)

I'm sorry I said such mean analytical things about you. I guess I was just a little ticked off and taking so many things at face value. It doesn't turn me on at all to be a target...I like to be liked, and when things get confusing, I just go chill.

All the best to you also,
Victoria
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 13:54:39 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Everyone back off
Message:
At this moment we are trying to mediate this offline. The worst part about this mess is how people here have been dragged into having to come down on one side or another on issues that should have been dealt with somewhere else in the first place.

Here you have people who have been very supportive of each other in the past now having to choose WHO to support. Move on, people. Nobody owes anyone any explanations, even if others feel that it's due after having been dragged into this against their will. I can sympathize with that viewpoint, but it isn't constructive in the end.

Maybe you either believe that someone is in the wrong, in which case let it die and stop dragging the rest of us into your private vendettas. Or maybe you believe that someone needs professional help, in which case it's childishly irresponsible to egg them on rather than offer support - or total silence if you have nothing more constructive to contribute to their emotional well-being.

We didn't ask for this mess, and I don't know how we could have dealt with it differently than it was handled. While I can't see enforcing a block when I'm uncertain of the details on either side, I'm completely willing to implement a block on ANYONE from here on out to keep people who want to use this forum for its intended purpose from having to be dragged through ugly private disputes.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 15:25:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Back off Brian
Message:
Well it's good to have you back, Brian. Nice to see you're assuming a very parental role here. Lord knows we need it.

But really, father.....

1) There are no 'sides'. Unless you think Joey's got a point about Barney being a spy or something. So there are no 'private disputes', just some irrational allegations that can't possibly survive the light of day. There are no 'sides'.

2) As for your off-line mediations, hey man, good luck. But I can't imagine you telling him anything other than what he's been told already, that he's out of control and needs some sort of attention beyond what he could ever get here.

3) Joey's brought his 'mentations' into this forum. There's no reason to not address him here as well.
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 16:43:53 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Back off Brian
Message:
Nice to see you're assuming a very parental role here. Lord knows we need it.

I can't help it. You are so cute. Sorry. But that made me smile.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 16:58:49 (EDT)
From: Georgia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Back off Brian
Message:
Who cares?
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:51:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Georgia
Subject: Back off Brian
Message:
Who cares?

About what? What do you think about or care about? Hm?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:42:38 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sheriff Block
Message:
Sounds Good!
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:33:48 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Post from God
Message:
Hello there Everyone! Here's my contribution to Forum levity for today. We all need it, especially me. Something Jean Michel said below got me thinking of this. We were wondering if Maharaji ever does post here.
Suppose he does. What name do you think he posts under? Please add your contribution and why you believe this to be so. THIS IS A JOKE ---- unless of course someone knows for sure his nom de plume, then it is not a joke. Whatever........

Anyway, as I told JM below, my vote goes to Catweasel. The cat just can't stand the ex's, although he does like to play with us sometimes. Plus, he won't engage in dialogue, just diatribe.

What do you think?
Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:38:16 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Post from God
Message:
'quasi-premie' is the only guy who gets my maybe on this.

He spammed the forum for hours, and had an attitude that anything he would do would be a good thing, as if he were born to rule. He had some intelligence but mostly just nonchalance and attitude to the max.

Frankly tho, there are so many arrogant premies whose heads are bigger than the rest of their bods. There's no telling.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:11:20 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Post from God
Message:
It was Mickey the Pharisee, don't you remember Rick's posts from Katie relating to the dinner 'meeting?' ...... he he he :-)

Sorry Mickey, I just HAD to do it.... Gawd, that was funny! :-)
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:59:55 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Post from God
Message:
I wouldn't vote for Catweasel - I kinda like the guy, and IMHO he's definitely from Australia.

As far as Mickey the Pharisee - well, don't y'all know that he IS the divine Guru Mariachi. Shoot, Mike's already devoted himself to him.

Guess I gotta vote for Da Rapper, IF y'all think M wants us to vote for Bill Bradley :).

Actually, I don't think M posts on here at all. Would YOU, if you were him? (Plus I don't really care! Sorry, Maharaji!)

Love,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 21:38:58 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Post from God
Message:
I was convinced that rawat was posting
under the names
student
participant
doc
a couple others.

You have to go back a ways to find them.
This time last year?
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:41:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
Some poor joker named Janice Wilson posted this on ELK. Pretty revealing, huh? This fake dichotomy, all these 'parts', the good and the bad, got to be a bit tiresome after a while. Remember?

Wise and stupid

I wish I didn't have this part of me that is stupid.
I wish I didn't have arrogance.
I wish I weren't ungrateful.
I really like being with the part of me that is wise.
I really like the feeling of humility.
I love feeling gratitude.
Maybe all I can do each day
is work toward embracing the real me,
and letting go of that which is unenjoyable.
Because I really like enjoying,
I really like appreciating;
I love feeling grateful;
I love feeling the sweetness of this existence.

Janice, the dealer always wins these games in the long run. What you need to do, sugar, is step away from the table.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:25:20 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
Hi Jim. I've lost your email address. Could you send it to me?
This ditty shoulda been called 'Duality'.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:54:57 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
This ditty shoulda been called 'Duality'.

Good title I think it should be called: 'Self Abuse,' 'Self Hatred,' 'The Fight With Yourself' or 'Premie Schizophrenia.'
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:58:17 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
God, that poem is depressing. Really disturbing. Gives me the creeps. I can remember feeling that way. That was hell. Really hell.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:17:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
I agree wholeheartedly. BTW, loved your phone call to Malibu!
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:27:57 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
We have to find out who 'Cathy' is, what her phone number is and everyone call her and find out the 'agya.' Cathy, if you are reading this, what is your phone number?

Rob, can you give us the number? Inquiring minds want to know the truth!
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:12:34 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Cathy
Message:
Dear Joe,
You know the number, just let that enjoyment, that gratitude fill you, soak into every pore. In this place, this true knowingness it will come to you. You have already said it you were just to in your mind to even see it there following your breath, it is....it is...
1-800-MALIBU
Of course you were right on about the rest of the call.
It doesn't have the right amount of digits, I know, but there in lies the grace, you silly goose! :)
I called myself and I can't not impart what I learned there, we all have to dial when we are ready but I will tell you I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my complimentary miniature model of that golden potty.
In the love brother,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:00:53 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Cathy
Message:
Very cute, Robyn/. You scared me a little. I guess you have read enough premies to know what it sounds like. I still think we should all call Cathy. Maybe I will check the EV site and see if I can get it. Probably only 'honcho' premies like Rob have Cathy's phone number.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:12:22 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Potty prayer
Message:
BWA HA HA
That was TOO hilarious, you are a riot! I can feel the love, I feel the telephone number coming into my mind, touch the telephone and pray with me people, send your money now and you will be SAVED by the GOLDEN POTTY , and with your purchase you'll receive, compliments of Telephone Prayer Network, this marble-like pyramid clock with the Elvis insignia.
I can't sleep WAA! Ovulating or insanity--you decide
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:38:38 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You are in your MIND, girl!
Message:
And I'm still laughing. Thanks!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:00:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: You are in your MIND, girl!
Message:
Dear Katie, JW, Helen, etc,
It was so easy and contrary to what JW thought I so rarely read premie posts it wasn't that at all, just a natural gift.
Just hope I am as equally gifted with this lasagna! I already forgot to notice what time the noddles started boiling, sheesh! I hope for your sake this operation is sucessful! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:07:43 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
Jim: Have you ever noticed how they state the obvious? 'I really like enjoying,....' Duhhhhhhh! NO, actually I hate enjoyment... I like being miserable.... Wait, if I like being miserable, then I must be ENJOYING it..... But, I hate enjoyment.... ohhhhhhhh, nooooooo!
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 20:12:55 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
Mike,

Not a single word of it is her own. This is pure cult-think pulled straight from the mind of Maharaji. It's a shame. This isn't Janice speaking. This is the vegetable the cult turned her into.

Poor Janice. Snap! Snap! Janice, are you in there?
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:03:45 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
One of the reasons rawat rants on in the last couple
years about gratitude and appreciation is that
his mid life crisis has made him see that
he was missing these ingredients in his own life
and that is part of the reasons he blew his
family scene and his previous mass of devotees.
He himself admitted in 96 that he was imprisoned
by fear and doubt and darkness and greed and
he is still stuck in the pathetic notion of
escapism by retreating to the mindless
nothingness of 'meditation', and hiding from
his unresolved pain issues by lableing it
illusion and unreality. Only the inner nothingness
is 'reality'.
Because it is -constant-and away from -this life-.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:06:28 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Leonardo Da Vinci sez......
Message:
The techniques do what??

'Inaction saps the vigors of the mind'
'Nothing can come from nothing'
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:08:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
One of the reasons rawat rants on in the last couple years about gratitude and appreciation is that his mid life crisis has made him see that he was missing these ingredients in his own life and that is part of the reasons he blew his family scene and his previous mass of devotees.

That's interesting, and maybe so. But I think another big reason is because he doesn't think he can get away with ranting about 'devotion and surrender' anymore, so he has watered it down to 'gratitude and appreciation' instead. It's all part of 'knowledge-lite' but basically the same, old trip -- how to get everything for himself.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 00:01:32 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
Right you are!
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 23:03:37 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
You got that right, Mike. I think they get that from Maharaji. How about, I like that enjoying and I enjoy that liking. And it's all that gift and it's all THAT, whatever it is. It makes me nuts.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 10:30:20 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The dark side of Gratitude
Message:
JW: They ought to rename the cult to something like, 'Enjoying Circular Thinking' or 'Liberation through Illogic' or 'Experience Nirvana by stating the obvious' or similar. It amazes me that they don't 'see' it, but it amazes me even more that it took us soooooo long to see it, too. 'Thou art THAT,' don't ya know! :-)
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 13:57:25 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Jim
Subject: The dark side of of the farce
Message:
Stupid and stupider

I wish I didn't have this part of me that is brainwashed...
I wish I didn't have Maharaji’s arrogance to consider.
I wish He wasn't in my life.

I really like being angry at the time I wasted with the part of me that was stupidly devoted to the Master-baiter.

I really like the feeling of humility that Nature shows me, not like that premies pretend to show in order to fulfill desires.

I love feeling gratitude to www.ex-premie.org.

Maybe all I can do each day is is work toward embracing wisdom, which is intelligence and love, and letting go of that which is unbelievable: raw-rat.

Because I really like enjoying seeing fewer video programs in the world.

I really like appreciating thinking and creating.

I love feeling free..
of Maharaji’s cheat and deceit.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:20:07 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An Indian Pespective
Message:
Here is the link to my new page:

An Indian Perspective on Maharaji's Teaching.

The e-mail exchange is still in progress, and the page will be updated.

This new page is not linked yet to the rest of my website.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 06:37:06 (EDT)
From: Insomkneeack
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dont miss this !
Message:
RIIIIIING! 'You have reached 'Malibu' if you are calling from a
touchtone phone press '1' for our menu of options. In order to
assure that you are a truly indoctrinated cult member, your call may
be monitored to assure premie quality.'

Beep.

If you want to know how to send a donation to Maharaji press 1.

If you want to purchase a video or other over-priced, useless
merchandise through Visions, press 2.

If you have questions about whether you should be on the internet,
what you should do on the internet, or what Maharaji thinks (this
week) about the internet, press 3 and 'Cathy' will assist you.

If you want to donate money to Maharaji, press 4.

If you would like to enhance your experience of the divine
knowledge through the expression of gratitude by donating money to
Maharaji, press 5.

If you would like to listen to mind-numbing, boring, simplistic
new-age elevator music composed by Maharaji, press 5 (cost is $5
per minute).

If you would like to listen to Maharaji talk about THAT LOVE, press
6 ($5 per minute).

If you would like to donate money to Maharaji, press 7.

To end this call, press 8.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:53:36 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Insomkneeack
Subject: this quoted from JW below (nt)
Message:
Just making sure Joe gets the attribution...
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Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:52:57 (EDT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How to Post on Maharaji's Site
Message:
The new service, Third Voice, allows one to post brief notes on other people's Web sites. All you need is the software add-on to IE 4.0 downloadable at www.thirdvoice.com.

Then you can post and view comments to any Web site, including Maharaji's.

What in the world is the Web coming to? As seen in the June 28 edition of Time.

-ET
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Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:58:33 (EDT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Oops! Link Here
Message:
Link to Third Voice here
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:04:29 (EDT)
From: billg
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: you forgot to pay the piper
Message:
ET,

Didn't see none of your posts. Something must be wrong with my computer. I'm the world's richest man and I've got 40,000 people working for me and my laptop don't work.

No, sorry, ET. It don't work that way. Only you can see your notes that you made. The notes are stored on your machine only. Good try, not a bad idea.

Maybe the treasure hunt feature is the trick.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 16:42:15 (EDT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: billg
Subject: No, really
Message:
It's true I haven't posted on Maharaji's site yet - I use Netscape, and right now Third Voice is only for IE4.

But you really can post for others to view, not just youself, as pointed out by other posters. All you need is the software to view and post.

Wait a few days and Maharaji's sites will be peppered with Third Voice posts from ex's warning it is a cult and with links to ex-premie.org.

-ET
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:39:52 (EDT)
From: x
Email: no
To: ET
Subject: Oops! Link Here
Message:
It's been called digital graffiti, but Third Voice is far more sophisticated than a can of spray paint. Besides, it does no harm to the Web sites on which it's used.

The system uses Third Voice's own server computers and a piece of client software downloaded from the Third Voice Web site (www.thirdvoice.com) and run on the user's machine. When you want to comment on something at, say, the CNN Web site, you can select the text and use the Third Voice client to attach a note. This note resides on the Third Voice server. CNN's own Web content is completely unaffected. Nobody will see your note unless he or she is also running the Third Voice client software. Visit a page with a note attached, and a small icon flashes red, to let you know that a fellow Third Voicer has weighed in on the subject.

The designers of Third Voice have added a stack of features that enhance the value of their product. You can add personal notes to a site, for viewing only by you. You can also set up groups of users, and post notes only they can read. This way, Third Voicers can create impromptu discussion groups at any site.

You might think that Web sites would hate the idea that another company is piggybacking on their popularity. But Leo Jolicoeur, Third Voice's vice president of business development, believes otherwise. In fact, Jolicoeur is scrambling to set up deals with major Web portals to promote Third Voice. The portal sites are desperate for ways to increase their 'stickiness'--the amount of time visitors spend at the site.

Third Voice is a clever idea, though not an original one. A band of open-source software writers came up with the same idea a couple of years ago, www.crit.org.

Of course, not many people currently use Third Voice, either. The product premiered only a couple of weeks ago. As a result, few of my favorite sites are adorned with comments from Internet kibitzers. Besides, the Third Voice software now works only with Microsoft's Internet Explorer 4 browser. The newest Microsoft browser, Internet Explorer 5, is off limits. And forget about using any Netscape browser for now, though Third Voice promises to support more browsers in coming months.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:55:00 (EDT)
From: billgarney
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Oops! Link Here
Message:
Thanks, do you think that I should buy the company?

This could be real fun when visiting the Netscape or www.maharaji.org site. Sort of a Kilroy was here.

Ok, X, you lead the way to www.maharaji.org and I'll follow later to see what you've left.

This new toy might be for Jim like the ladder given to the genie. We'll never have to hear anymore Jimmy Dawkins again.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 02:22:49 (EDT)
From: x
Email: None
To: billgarney
Subject: Oops! Link Here
Message:
Thanks, do you think that I should buy the company?
This could be real fun when visiting the Netscape or www.maharaji.org site. Sort of a Kilroy was here.

Ok, X, you lead the way to www.maharaji.org and I'll follow later to see what you've left.

This new toy might be for Jim like the ladder given to the genie. We'll never have to hear anymore Jimmy Dawkins again.

------------

Ha ha, ha, ok, but not tonight I need to get some sleep, maybe tomorrow. Sounds like it might be an amazing tool, and if I might let my imagination wander a little, it might be possible instead of you buying this company that you hire me to set-up the same sort of thing for one or more engines like they have, but just for a particular Site, like, maharajji.org, or cnn.com and so on, you get the idea, it would be possible to distribute that software, and anyone who had it, and it alone, would be able to see what other users of that software had put on the Site, many many possibilities......

The company did make reference to another company or group that had done this earlier, it might be an open public domain possibility for the creation of the same sort of thing?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:48:26 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: x
Subject: Updated Information!
Message:
How it's done! Some REALLY COOL features!!!!!!!!

Select what type of note you want to post.

(1)Personal notes are kept private on your system and can only be viewed by you.

(2)Group notes are shared among all the members of a specified group. AS in, 'Ex-Premies.org' !!!!!!!

(3)Public notes can be viewed by all members of the Third Voice service.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 03:51:00 (EDT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Updated Information!
Message:
I took the plunge, downloaded IE4 from a Micosoft site (1.5 hrs), and then added Third Voice (much shorter). After I got my password by e-mail, I logged on and posted my first note on the Maharaji site. It is linked to the text 'Welcome to Maharaji.org', right below the condom wrapper illustration.

I refered others to ex-premie.org in the note.

Can you view it? If the bar in the little icon strip is red, it indicates a site has Third Voice post-it notes.

What hath God wrought?

-ET
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 04:25:17 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Updated Information!
Message:
I took the plunge, downloaded IE4 from a Micosoft site (1.5 hrs), and then added Third Voice (much shorter). After I got my password by e-mail, I logged on and posted my first note on the Maharaji site. It is linked to the text 'Welcome to Maharaji.org', right below the condom wrapper illustration.
I refered others to ex-premie.org in the note.

Can you view it? If the bar in the little icon strip is red, it indicates a site has Third Voice post-it notes.

What hath God wrought?

-ET
_____________Separator____________________________

{{{My pal it works!}}}
=======================
Please, remember this day, History was made!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Below is your message with typo and all! {thet} - ? - {that}

This is a cult site. For more information from experienced ex's go to www.ex-premie.org

The four techniques are explained at thet site too, if you are really interested.

___________Separaor________________________________

I also have IT and am able to POST, THIS is, 'WOW'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, WE all or as many that feel comfortable with this program, should, 'DO IT'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 06:11:46 (EDT)
From: X
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Updated Information!
Message:
Just want to say that some very bad press is linked to this 3rd Voice program, such as that the Government of China is the owner of this program and that the user of the program may be being monitored by them, also, well, that is enough for now, I am not sure of this information, please, investigate!

I think I read also that another company, {A U.S. company}, also may have this same sort of program, or will have it ready soon.

Please, be careful. It may be OK, but I just am not sure, thank you.

If you decide to use it please think about using information that will not come back to hurt you if and when you register!!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:37:19 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Everyone
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
Sheesh, I hate these crazy days; what is it, the heat? Barney, you are doing a great job here and I don't think that you should resign; I hope that you will decide to return to the helm after a short break. I'm not sure what is going on with JF/Nim, but I hope that we can all work this out. If an ex has a problem with another ex, they both need to work it out, but I actually think that such things should be worked out off-line; it is not right to accuse someone here on the Forum, especially of being a pornographer or harassing people.
We aren't always going to get along all the time and we will get angry with each other at times, but I think that things have gotten a bit out of hand here today. We need to remember the purpose of this Forum. It is a place where we can work out our anger and confusion and the crap we aquired 'at the feet of the Master.' TD's post about another aspirant escaping the clutches of the ol' LOTU is evidence of what this place is about.
I really hope that this can get worked out.
Also, thanks to all of you for the nice things you posted about me; I will miss you all.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:46:47 (EDT)
From: Sorceress Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
No need to worry. at the request of an anonymous person on Anything Goes I have done a protection ritual for Barney and a healing ritual for Nim. Combined with the solstice energy this should be potent, and powerful.

And you know what is really weird? I actually did do it and believe in it. Guess I best get my butt back to Anything Goes before I lose my cynical sleazy bitch reputation here!

Love, the moon goddess
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:53:52 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Sorceress Selene
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
This site is getting too weird. Chill out guys.
BTW welcome ex aspirant. Now we can start the ex aspirant site.
Curly
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:05:56 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
my post was weird? Why?
And I don't need to chill. I am not all that hot and bothered about any of this, just being irreverent.
Except of course for the rituals!!! hahaha

ps - I am not a guy.....
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:30:08 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
Selene:
I didn't mean my post to be directed at you specifically.
Between Barney getting threatened, the Gordon incident, Rob, and then your ritual (which I read after coming back fom a couple of martinis with friends. Now that I think of it, that's probably why there was a gender confusion).
Anyway, if it was in good fun, fine.
For the record,I don't think you are weird.
Yours truly,
Curly
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:37:17 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Selene, now I remember!
Message:
My post was not directed at you at all, hence the word 'guys'. It was to everyone for the reasons I stated before.
My apologies for any misunderstanding.
Curly
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:37:55 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Selene, now I remember!
Message:
Oh It's OK
The whole mess here lately had me a bit wired. Thank you for writing back to me. A few martinis hyh? wow.
I hven't had martinis for ages ( oh wait does Absout on ice minus vermouth count?)

All is well. Love, Selene
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:12:57 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Try Curly's recipe
Message:
I've always thought that a good martini is a step towards world peace.
My recipe:

Chill the cone shaped glasses (the bigger the better) with ice and water.
Take some good quality ice (big hard cold cubes, you don't want little chinks of ice that will water down the gin) and put it in the cocktail mixer.
Add a dash of Noilly Prat vermouth and stir carefully (you don't want to hurt the ice) untill the ice is coated with the stuff.

Strain the vermouth out of the mixer. Keep the ice.

Pour in quality gin. My personal favorite is Bombay Saphire. Let the gin chill in the mixer. Stir carefully.
Throw out the ice and water out of the glasses. Shake the glasses so that they're as dry as possible.

Pour in the gin sans ice in the glasses.

Add green olives (spanish ones are best). No stuffed olives please.

If you are feeling specially self indulgent, instead of the olives throw in a good oyster.

Another oyster variation works with chilled Absolut lime vodka.

Enjoy!

Yum!
Curly
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:35:58 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Hi Curly! (OT)
Message:
Hi Curly1 What's up with you? I've missed talking to you lately. Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Last days of chain smoking (OT
Message:
Hi Marianne:
I'm pretty good. Had a wonderful time last night with some friends who came in from NYC. We remembered the good old days and got pickled.
I took them to the hipest restaurant in town (they have a seven day waiting list and you can catch a glimpse of Madonna when she is in the neighborhood) where they, being NYC restauranteurs, were very impressed by the excrutiantingly high prices of this joint.

I'm quitting smoking next week (I promised my girlfriend I would do so) and I'm in the process of preparing myself to encounter that spiritual void *cough cough*.
Getting pickled will never be the same again.

So anyway, how are you my dear?
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:20:11 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: Last days of chain smoking (OT
Message:
Hi Curly! I am glad that you are quitting smoking. I know that it is very hard. I never picked the habit up myself -- lots of cancer on my mom's side of the family, much of it self induced, so I stayed away. I don't have any good tips for you but I will send good thoughts your way to give you support.
Yesterday was a bad day on the Forum and it really affected me. I am ok today. 2 weeks ago a federal judge denied the habeas corpus petition in one of my death penalty cases, so my client is a step closer to being executed. There is a very good issue in the case which I think will cause the federal appellate court to rule in my client's favor, but that's all a pipe dream at this moment. Sorry for the smoking metaphor! I I have a lot of hard work ahead of me on this case and a couple of others over the next few months. I just have to keep from worrying too much, a major occupation of mine.
I'm also getting ready for a new teaching assignment I have next year. I'm going over to Ireland for 4 months to teach at the University College Cork in Cork, Ireland (southern tip of Ireland) to teach legal writing. It'll be a great adventure for me and will give me a chance to bop around the isles and the continent a bit.
NYC restaurant folks, huh? Ohh, that is a tough buisness. As you must know, there are lots of wonderful places in SF, but I cannot lay claim to knowing folks in the biz. Do they give you doggy bags Curly?
Yours in stoogehood, Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 15:48:24 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Woof! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:24:51 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Ireland
Message:
Dear Marianne,
I am glad to hear you are doing better today. Your trip sounds splendid!
I always longed to go to Ireland. I don't know if it was a past life thing or that stint myself and my sisters had as the 3 lone Italian girls in the Irish dance class my mother enrolled us in! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:13:46 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Curly
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
Thanks. Curly. I am grateful for your input.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:24:20 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
well I wasn't grateful for the input
I post here once a week or less and get told to 'chill out'
yeah, great insightful and helpful input. ---
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:01:28 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Oh great sorcerous of the web
Message:
dont be a goose
wups, I guess you dont say that to a sorceres
my guess is that Curly posted without seeing yours.
check the times
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:16:03 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: Oh great sorcerous of the web
Message:
by the way , I am not putting down your solctice escapade.
Did a few myself.
this year I felt connected to many places on the globe.
Check out 'THE Total eclipse of the sun'on
http:members.tripod.com/'beb22.index_22.html
(hope I got that right)
and they thought we were wierd

My post above is because I think Curly is too much of a gentleman to say such things to you. Thats why I think the pposts crossed each other.Is that possible?
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 04:47:42 (EDT)
From: pssssst
Email: None
To: Marianne & Selene
Subject: Funny thing.
Message:
Jim has been absent for a few days and now pops up at the same time as Rob. I wonder if they had a meeting.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:52:35 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh great sorcerous of the web
Message:
Selene: I didn't mean to step on your toes. It was a bad day yesterday. I'm sorry. Marianne
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:33:55 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Oh great sorcerous of the web
Message:
It's OK
Yes last night, this whole past 4 or 5 days actually, have been especially intense for me too.
Take care of yourself
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 07:38:46 (EDT)
From: Fallen Mary
Email: None
To: Micky
Subject: You didn't hear?
Message:
Hi MP,

I guess you missed the post stating that X/3 is now an official plug in for the game EverQuest;-) However, you must work hard to get to this level as it requires great skills and stratagems to move around without being vaporized.

Selene,

Can I borrow your armor? I'll swap you for my 'Invisible Raze'. Where's our MOO?

Love,
Mary
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 08:00:57 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Fallen Mary
Subject: Hail, fellow gamer!
Message:
Mary,

Have you ever played the strategy game Heroes Of Might And Magic? I am completely charmed by this game and can spend hours at a time with it. I also like Civilization, though I hear it's latest installation, Call To Power, isn't that good. MOO, I take it, is Master Of Orion. I never did play this one but I hear it's really great.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:29:52 (EDT)
From: Mary
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hail, fellow gamer!
Message:
Hi Jerry,

Have you ever played the strategy game Heroes Of Might And Magic? I am completely charmed by this game and can spend hours at a time with it. I also like Civilization, though I hear it's latest installation, Call To Power, isn't that good.

Actually I'm not much of a gamer but most of my techie friends are. I'm into ping-pong;-)

MOO, I take it, is Master Of Orion. I never did play this one but I hear it's really great.

Well, below is the definition of a MOO as well as a link to learn more about them. I was involved in a program that MIT and Embry Riddle developed to take a C++ course in a MOO Environment (circa 93/94 ish). It was a techie/learning modality experiment. I failed miserably at it because the first thing I had to do was pick up my C++ textbook on the table in the classroom. When I finally got to the classroom to get my book some wizard jumped out and sliced my hands off. After several failed attempts at keeping my virtual reality hands, I disgustedly threw my 'reality' hands up in the air and gave up;-)

They reported back that the data of my experience in the MOO fit the profile norm they'd developed based upon an individual's age. Hey, what can I say? My generation went to NAM. The 'younger' generation goes to MOOs ;)

Short for Mud, Object Oriented, a specific implementation of a MUD system.

MOOs & MUDs Info

Gotta run and track down an AVI of a whippoorwill for my friend! Now that I can do!

L,
MM
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:37:03 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sorceress Selene
Subject: Thank you, Selene!
Message:
Dear Selene -
I don't know exactly how to thank someone for a ritual - it's like thanking someone for prayers, maybe? But I very much appreciate the positive energy expressed in your post!

Love you,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:42:23 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thank you, Selene!
Message:
Thanks Katie
Though I try to downplay my 'other side' I did mean what I said.

Thanks cp and mary too for the support.

Now, back to my tough girl act before I get too nice.
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:39:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sorceress Selene
Subject: Ritual
Message:
Greetings Sorceress

Never underestimate the power of ritual.

(and always give careful consideration to the futile gesture, another useful tool in life's journey).

Anth the Wise
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Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:32:16 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ritual
Message:
HA
Well said AJW
I read a lot into that one. but alas, I am slow to learn what is futile and what isn't.

Thanks for the idea though. I needed it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 21:44:59 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: What the hell is going on?
Message:
Hi, Mickey

I don't read here much anymore, but got an email from Katie stating that she and Brian are webmastering again. I popped in to see how my some of my favorite folks were doing--not too well, I see. THEN I read that you are leaving.

You have a most humorous perspective that I have enjoyed reading for the past year and a half. Take care and best wishes to you and your family in your new home and job. You are a great person, Michael! I admire you very very much and feel lucky that I got a chance to cross your path.

Best Wishes and Peace,
VP
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Date: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 21:42:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: off topic Hi VP
Message:
I have been wondering how you were. I hope things are ok.
you haven't been around much but I haven't either, actually.
good for us!! sort of I mean - in a good way. good to see your 'handle' around.
love ya
Selene
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