Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 53

From: Jun 16, 1999

To: Jul 4, 1999

Page: 1 Of: 5



Katie -:- Electronic Communication -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 00:22:49 (EDT)
__Selene -:- Electronic Communication -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:06:15 (EDT)
__Runamok -:- the forum family -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:10:05 (EDT)
____selene -:- the forum family -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:21:47 (EDT)
____barney -:- wait a minute! -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 04:29:50 (EDT)
____Katie -:- the forum family -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:56:35 (EDT)
__The Happy Luddite -:- Electronic Communication -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 08:34:21 (EDT)
____Jim -:- Anonymity? Feh! -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 09:19:54 (EDT)
______Felix -:- Avoidance! Feh! -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:28:51 (EDT)
______JHB -:- Anonymity? Feh! -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:43:08 (EDT)
____Gerry -:- Electronic Communication -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 10:48:20 (EDT)
______Felix -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 07:06:01 (EDT)
________Gerry -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 11:05:56 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- Who Am I Gerry -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:01:27 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Who Am I Gerry -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:33:19 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- Who Am I Gerry -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:14:21 (EDT)
________________Gerry the Apeman -:- Who Am I Gerry -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:50:07 (EDT)
__________________Robyn -:- Who Am I Hairy? -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 00:30:31 (EDT)
____Victoria -:- Electronic Communication -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 12:04:20 (EDT)
______Gerry -:- Gun Control thread -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 12:44:15 (EDT)
________mom -:- Jim-yes about the children -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 22:58:10 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- 'Some' means how many? -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:26:43 (EDT)
____________Katie -:- anonymity is OK with me -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:57:12 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- I find that hard to believe -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:54:38 (EDT)
________________Katie -:- I find that hard to believe -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:22:22 (EDT)
________________cp -:- I find that hard to believe -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:33:52 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- I find that hard to believe -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 20:56:56 (EDT)
____________________cp -:- I find that hard to believe -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 06:36:42 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- for the record -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:01:47 (EDT)
______________________Jean-Michel -:- One more thing -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 12:37:17 (EDT)
____________mom -:- 'Some' means how many? -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 02:00:07 (EDT)
______________Helen -:- emotional support & forum -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:59:12 (EDT)
________________barney -:- anonymous and abuse -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:05:53 (EDT)
__________________Helen -:- too hot around here now -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:07:23 (EDT)
____________________Tami -:- Spek four urself -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 21:22:50 (EDT)
________________mom -:- emotional support & forum -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 17:33:40 (EDT)
____barney -:- Luddite, please elaborate -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 15:00:08 (EDT)
____Brian -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 01:44:37 (EDT)
______Jim -:- I don't get it, I really don't -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 02:37:35 (EDT)
________Runamok -:- Meandering Threadworms -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 03:18:24 (EDT)
__________VP -:- Meandering Threadworms -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:12:25 (EDT)
________Joey -:- I'm not surprised -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 07:47:20 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Put up or shut up, Joey -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:27:20 (EDT)
____________Brian -:- Put up or shut up, Joey -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:32:15 (EDT)
______________Jim -:- Put up or shut up, Joey -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:41:03 (EDT)
________________Joey -:- Jimmy...are we upset? -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:23:23 (EDT)
________________Brian -:- Put up or shut up, Joey -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:28:38 (EDT)
__________________Jim -:- Wrong -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:30:58 (EDT)
____________________Joey -:- Wrong -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:49:56 (EDT)
______________________barney -:- I see light! -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:05:21 (EDT)
________________________Joey -:- I see bogus blarney!!(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:50:23 (EDT)
______________________Jim -:- Wrong -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:18:09 (EDT)
________________________Joey -:- Right... -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:46:46 (EDT)
________Katie -:- blocking vs 'outing' -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:08:39 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Look at it this way -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:24:39 (EDT)
____________Brian -:- Look at it this way -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:49:18 (EDT)
______barney -:- Tired being attacked here -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:57:42 (EDT)
________Joey -:- Tired being attacked here -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:59:12 (EDT)
__________barney -:- Go, Joey, Go! -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:56:10 (EDT)
____________Joey -:- Go, blarney, Go! -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 00:19:37 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Joey, you ARE indeed paranoid -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:23:51 (EDT)
____________Joey -:- Jim, you're off the wall man! -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:48:03 (EDT)
______________observer -:- Jim, you're off the wall man! -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:22:31 (EDT)
____Katie -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:10:31 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:36:24 (EDT)
________Joey -:- And how would you feel? -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:45:17 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Joey, I've got a book for you -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:48:01 (EDT)
____________Joey -:- And I've got one for you... -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:56:04 (EDT)
______________L'Chiam -:- JF -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:04:26 (EDT)
______________AN Asshole -:- Joey/nim ex-premie -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:40:40 (EDT)
________________Joey -:- Joey/nim ex-premie -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:56:58 (EDT)
__________________An Asshole -:- Joey/nim ex-premie -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 21:20:20 (EDT)
__AJW -:- Electronic Communication -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:05:50 (EDT)
__barney -:- STOP THIS LIBELOUS CRAP -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:32:51 (EDT)
____JW -:- STOP THIS LIBELOUS CRAP -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:10:57 (EDT)
______Jim -:- Not quite, JW -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 21:25:05 (EDT)
____Brian -:- What the webmaster says -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:17:30 (EDT)
______Jim -:- What the webmaster says -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:55:08 (EDT)
________KB -:- A Duel! -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:45:09 (EDT)
__________Jim -:- Thanks but no thanks, Bill -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:26:36 (EDT)
____________KB -:- Thanks but no thanks, Bill -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 16:04:43 (EDT)
________Rob -:- Relax -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:01:25 (EDT)
______barney -:- THEN DON'T DELETE POSTS -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 00:04:41 (EDT)
______Freely speaking minds -:- What the webmaster says -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 04:07:04 (EDT)
________bad bad barney -:- Snapped - My confession -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 15:34:29 (EDT)
__________Gerry -:- Snapped - My confession -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 15:42:24 (EDT)
__________Katie -:- Your confession -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 16:40:07 (EDT)
____________cp -:- Ya {{{{WEbb}}} masters pls rd -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 17:29:08 (EDT)
____________Rob -:- Hello Katie! (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:09:23 (EDT)
______________Gerry -:- Hey Rob! -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:13:51 (EDT)
________________Rob -:- Hey -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:22:57 (EDT)
__________________Gerry -:- Hey -:- Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:01:26 (EDT)
__________JHB -:- Snapped - My confession -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 19:52:44 (EDT)
____________Gerry -:- Snapped - My confession -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:11:00 (EDT)
______________JHB -:- Who went... -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:40:37 (EDT)
________________Gerry -:- Who went... -:- Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:15:24 (EDT)

Victoria -:- This will keep you busy for a -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 00:22:09 (EDT)
__RT -:- TRY ASK.COM -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:08:53 (EDT)

Astroturf -:- Maharini Style -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:24:28 (EDT)
__seymour -:- Maharini Style what? -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 16:25:42 (EDT)
____KB -:- deepshit crapper -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:24:13 (EDT)

Seymour -:- Premie food sales -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:42:25 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Recipe for enlightenment -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 13:31:11 (EDT)
____seymour -:- Recipe for enlightenment -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:23:13 (EDT)
______Liz -:- Veggie Lasagne -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 17:14:32 (EDT)
__Mike -:- A serious question -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:20:31 (EDT)
____CD -:- A serious question -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 00:01:08 (EDT)

Rachel Geaves -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:41:48 (EDT)
__Copta' Buzz -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:21:38 (EDT)
____b fiendly -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:37:38 (EDT)
______gregg -:- re: Fuzzbee -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 13:41:46 (EDT)
________Jim -:- Fuzzbee's a jerk -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:28:41 (EDT)
__________Gregg -:- Fuzzbee -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 11:40:31 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- Fuzzbee -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 17:14:48 (EDT)
______________gregg -:- Fuzzbee -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:17:47 (EDT)
________________Selene -:- Fuzzbee -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:23:21 (EDT)
________________CD -:- Fuzzbee -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:09:25 (EDT)
____PutneySquatter -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:53:37 (EDT)
______Copta' Buzz -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 11:35:43 (EDT)
________PutneySquatter -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:47:38 (EDT)
__________Copta' Buzz -:- re: Suzie Bai -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EDT)
________JHB -:- Old Fiends -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:05:43 (EDT)
__AJW -:- Hi Rachel. -:- Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 18:54:32 (EDT)
____Jethro -:- Hi Rachel. -:- Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 02:40:09 (EDT)
______AJW -:- Hi Rachel. -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 04:24:10 (EDT)
________JHB -:- Latvian Beer -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 06:51:16 (EDT)
__________Jethro -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:25:01 (EDT)
____________Robyn -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 15:00:31 (EDT)
______________AJW -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 15:57:46 (EDT)
________________Robyn -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 00:18:35 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 03:10:49 (EDT)
____________________Robyn -:- Latvian Relatives -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 07:14:58 (EDT)
______________________Liz -:- Toast Rack (ot) -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 20:07:29 (EDT)
__________________Liz -:- Mullberries -:- Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 20:12:54 (EDT)

Seymour -:- Sweetly, safely, strongly -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:16:56 (EDT)
__Helen -:- Sweetly, safely, strongly -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:01:01 (EDT)
____seymour -:- Sweetly, safely, sorry oldhat -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:19:25 (EDT)
______Helen -:- Ground down -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:53:30 (EDT)
________KB -:- Seymour light -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:44:06 (EDT)
__________seymour -:- Seymour light -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:31:50 (EDT)
____________KB -:- Seymour light -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:29:06 (EDT)
______Katie -:- Wotcha Seymour! -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 20:14:48 (EDT)
________Seymour -:- Wotcha Seymour! -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 15:51:06 (EDT)
__JHB -:- How many Jones have you seen? -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:42:02 (EDT)
____Helen -:- How many Jones have you seen? -:- Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:34:37 (EDT)

Jim -:- Joey, you've got to be fair -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:40:41 (EDT)
__Jerry -:- Thank you -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:12:12 (EDT)

Jim -:- Why? -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:35:19 (EDT)
__Sir Dave -:- Why not, indeed -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:53:06 (EDT)
____Runamok -:- Why not, indeed -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 02:28:22 (EDT)
__cp -:- Why? -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:57:09 (EDT)

Jim -:- There're those words again -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:17:14 (EDT)
__Gregg -:- poetry is beautiful -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:09:13 (EDT)
____Helen -:- poetry is vacuous -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 22:38:03 (EDT)
______nigel -:- It reminded me... -:- Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 23:16:00 (EDT)
________selene off topic again! -:- It reminded me... -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 02:31:58 (EDT)
__________Helen -:- It reminded me... -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:58:00 (EDT)
____________Selene -:- It reminded me... -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:03:40 (EDT)
______________Marianne -:- It reminded me... -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:10:11 (EDT)
__________cp -:- Shame on you Selene. -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 16:38:34 (EDT)
____________selene -:- Shame on you Selene. -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:11:59 (EDT)
______________selene -:- ps to Marianne -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:15:19 (EDT)
________________Helen -:- ps to Marianne -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 22:42:43 (EDT)
__________________Selene -:- dance -:- Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 01:27:36 (EDT)
____KB -:- Gregg -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:10:59 (EDT)
______gregg -:- KB -:- Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:24:26 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 00:22:49 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
I just received the following e-mail from a ex-premie friend who used to read and post on the forum fairly regularly. I really liked her insights, and thought other people here on the forum might appreciate them as well, so she gave me permission to post her e-mail (well, most of it!).

She wrote:
When I found the Forum, I was actually looking to be inspired. I read all the archives I could and kept up with the current conversations for a long time before I ever posted for 2 reasons: 1)I was processing my feelings and realizing Maharaji was a fraud, and 2 ) because I was in abject terror of anyone slamming, insulting, or harrassing me.

My father's parenting style was 'conquer through humiliation' which was the only way he knew to deal with his rebellious brood. All we ever saw as children in terms of adult interaction was verbal sparring (and eventually physical fighting). Consequently, I grew up to be hypersensitive to criticism and extremely protective of myself in conversation.

As an adult child of an alcoholic in therapy, I decided to allow my defense mechanisms to crumble and be completely open with *everyone* until I found out (after 10 years or so) that I needed to open myself up in moderation to people since not everyone has my best interest at heart. duh.

Anyway, I view the Forum as an excellent tool for premies in recovery from the cult; it was my first venture into analyzing Maharaji's trip in a safe way with people who were intimately familiar with it. The information is great. However, as an emotional support group, it sucks.

I've come to the following conclusions:
1) Electronic communication lacks a personal element that is really vital in human interaction.
2) Physical presence conveys so much more than words alone.
3) Internet and electronic communication is powerful but can also be devastating. And what is it really? Lot's of binary code that can really stir up a lot of shit!

However, I have been fascinated by the myriad of personalities who were attracted to Maharaji, all seeking an answer to existence, but coming from so many different backgrounds and leaving in so many different directions.

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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:06:15 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Hi Katie.
Please thank your friend for me. I feel like an innocent, in a way.
It's odd, because I have been doing the nerdy behind the scenes type computing since 84.
But, never did any real interactive communicating til forum.
I lurked on the cult movies newsgroup, that was about it.
(don't rent Hardware, that is what I learned there)

Anyway, I do feel I have learned, kind of the hard way, that there is indeed a powerful force behind electronic communications and that, as your friend said, the lack of a real person behind it can be devastating, even though liberating. Odd contradictions. eb
once called it the new 'wild west' and I think that sums it up pretty well.

selene, insomnia and full moon are the same to me, and I am er... it's envious I believe, of all of you who are not awake.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:10:05 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: the forum family
Message:
Hi Katie,
We have talked about some of these issues thru email and you have mentioned some of the support issues (and correspondence from exes in regard to those issues).

I don't want to overgeneralize, but the forum does seem to be unnecessarily argumentative at times. It has often seemed to be related primarily to discussion with premies, but it's obvious that it's not merely the premies (altho it may well be the case more often than not that the prems are ****ing with us).

Having been offline for a few weeks, I came back to several 'major' events in the life of the forum (change of webmasters, blocking of shp, joe's flipout and blocking of joe with subsequent unblocking, change back of webmasters- not to mention the most radical change: framed browsing!!) Blocking Shp didnt bother me much. Where else could it go? But seeing Barney feeling so troubled did- why should he be troubled while working his butt off to keep this place going?

It did make me think of our talks (w/Katie) about support. I know that Barney's involvement with M was over 2 decades and I imagine he was pretty serious with mostly regular satsang attendance (when it was called that and whatever else it is called), with tithing his 10% or close, and with travelling around the world blowing a fortune on stupid zines and swan jewelry and all the shit that goes with following the supreme incarnation of greed.

I followed M for about 10 years, with maybe 4 as a goody-goody premie, and in the other 6 years some various bursts of intense activity (going to festivals or whatever). I did practice meditation the whole time. My point is, there was plenty of damage, and I was relatively quick to leave the cult, with enough skepticism to step away from divine light insanity after a few years.

I mean there was plenty of damage. There was maximum damage to my relationship with my family (which as has been pointed out was probably already the trend). In keeping with that, I'd say that my own social development was also pretty seriously sidetracked, to put it mildly.

I mean, instead of learning from experience about communication, to see how you can convince your family and total strangers how some spoiled teenager is the savior... I mean, man, at least it could have been something that I made a commission on if they bought it..

I know if I had spent a decade or two in total good premie dedication that I would be in serious need of a few years of support to get over it (honestly, to start to get over it!)

While, I'm more or less over M, my disdain for him hasnt diminishes. It grows, seeing the kinds of things that people are going thru. Barney, Joe and Gail are all people I see online who seem to have gone through the most horrendous and degrading kinds of experiences which in effect they can only 'detox' from slowly. I hope that our we do stick together and that there can be some kind of continuity for some of the people who are online here who really need some time to get over M, cause he's a bloodsucker who knows how to get blood from your bones. Plenty of you are drained beyond immediate relief.

Anon posted about the 'neural surfer' site(s), which include multiple forums on cultism issues. They function with rules of politeness (but also maintain a more intellectual tone). They are worth a look to see how some other people deal with some of the same issues as we have here.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 02:21:47 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: the forum family
Message:
Hi Runamok
I posted to you earlier this week, about a similar msg. you had
shared with us.

Just want to reiterate my thank you.

It *is* hard to get over it. And learn new thinking, and for me I think the really big one is, learn to trust someone else.
Because, trust means, you have to believe that you matter, and the other person is also of some consequence. And so, together, it
is Important to care and trust and open up. It is so hard for
me to do that when I spent my entire adult life believing that it wasn't
real. or important. anyway, I hope this makes sense. I am tired and awake at the same time.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 04:29:50 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: wait a minute!
Message:
Thanks for all the kind words, Run. I blocked your buddy shp for awhile and then after the unconfirmed agya from M came down for premies to avoid this site like the plague we all (read Jim) were feeling abandoned, lonely, and a bit desperate. So, I unblocked shp and welcomed him back to the Forum. However, as far as anyone can tell he has yet to make an appearance. I would imagine that once he stopped banging his head against our wall that he might have realized he was better off without it.

I know that Barney's involvement with M was over 2 decades and I imagine he was pretty serious with mostly regular satsang attendance (when it was called that and whatever else it is called), with tithing his 10% or...

Wait a minute! No way! In the beginning for a few years I was gungho like most everybody. But I never made it to the ashram. No, I was an out on the fringes premie with a lot of dissonance going on all the time. Only gave money regularly in the last few years because I was finally making some money after being a bum and going back to school. Skipped festivals. Didn't travel out of the country other than Rome '77. Didn't hang out with premies too often or at all - too stifling, too boring.

Regular satsang attendance - no. However in the last few years trying to go to videos and give a chance kinda thing. Quickly tiring of seeing the same damn videos 4,5,6,7 even 10 times. The waterfalls, the streams, the music, the uptight 8 premies doing video service for the other five premies who showed up.

Never bought no trinkets. The Long Beach trinket halls were a big drip for me. Actually, other than the little buzz at the programs I hated programs. I hated being around all the damn premies with all of their freaking out, blissing out and just being too out there for me with all their herbal remedies and newage add-ons. Between shows I'd take long walks on the beach or do some sightseeing.

Yup, I was one hardcore premie. Nah, the only thing the trip did for me was make me feel guilty and inadequate. Or is that what they call thirst and gratitude?
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:56:35 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Runamok
Subject: the forum family
Message:
Hi Runamok -
I think my friend was mainly talking about 'emotional support' in the context of revealing stuff about your personal life . Although people do reveal personal details about their lives here, and DO get support, it's often on non-complicated issues (for example, death.) Also, every so often, people who reveal personal things about themselves run into another poster who is completely unsympathetic, and this isn't helpful, to say the least. However, it's a risk you take on a public forum. Some people are more willing to take this risk than others.

My friend did go on to discuss the support she's gotten from private e-mails with some of the other ex-premies who post here. I did not post this part because it contained personal details. Her feelings about the limits of electronic communication included e-mails as well, though. She went on to say that it had helped her to meet some of the people she'd been e-mailing with in person - that then she felt that she REALLY knew the person. (I've experienced this as well.)

As far as emotional support for people leaving the cult, I do think that IS available here, and I think many people can testify to that. You wrote:
I hope that we do stick together and that there can be some kind of continuity for some of the people who are online here who really need some time to get over M...

I agree with this. I'd also like to point out that there is a lot of anger, frustration, guilt and sadness involved in 'getting over it', and that sometimes it's difficult for people to get support here when they're expressing a lot of anger and frustration. While I don't think anyone necessarily has to AGREE with someone's expressions of anger, it does help people to be at least 'heard' and acknowledged.

As far as rules of politeness - this topic is discussed very often both on and off the forum. Of course I wish that people here would be more polite and considerate of each other. However, IMHO, the forum also needs to be a place where people can vent negative emotions, and sometimes they do this in a way that is neither polite and considerate. (I can tell you that one of the hardest lessons that I've had to learn in life has been how to express my own anger appropriately - I am still working on it!)

Thanks for your thoughts, Run -
Love,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 08:34:21 (EDT)
From: The Happy Luddite
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
The following can be read or skipped depending upon whether or not you, dear reader, are interested.

Throughout the 'Premie - Ex-Premie' quote 'Paranoia & Outing Issues' I've been absolutely astounded at the blatant ignorance or 'I don't want to know about this attitude' towards Internet Technologies as well as the issue of 'privacy' on the Forum/Internet.

As a direct result of participation on this X-Forum I've had to change my home phone number, my office will be changing my work extension and pager number, and yes, I will be closing my ISP account. I've been actively involved with the Internet for the past twelve years. Is the X/3 forum secure? Unequivocally the answer is NO. Will it ever be secure? I don't think so based simply on technological tools of the age we live in. This is quite simply a very real issue that many are grappling with as we leave the industrial age and move even further into the age of informatics.

Perhaps it is the crumbs of the Maharini cookie left in our psyche, but for some reason or another participants are unwilling to acknowledge that Maharaji has re-invented his image to one of a Corporate Private Investor World Wide Web Four Techniques dude. I feel that ample proof has been provided that Rawat's financial empire was and continues to be built upon the blind trust of premies from the seventies, eighties, and nineties. This blind trust coupled with an insular web of corporate entities consisting of, among other things, renowned attorneys as Officers or Registered Agents should be a wake up call as to who Maharaji really is. In my opinion his sole purpose in life 'now' is an overwhelming lust for power, wealth, and total manipulation of an individual who may have stumbled into the EV/VI cross hairs whilst being driven by an inherent yearning for truth, or a purpose in life, or a quest to know God. Can Maharaji be sued or reported to the IRS? Come on now; look at his legal counsel of the feeder corporations.

Does Maharaji have individuals or plants monitor this web site? If he does it is solely to protect his vested interests, be they corporate investments or his investment opportunity pwks , or to cast aspersions on the personalities of those who have 'insider information'. Would I caution anyone posting to be careful? Absolutely. There are tools readily available to track an individual's exact location of posting and of course there are tools to disguise an individuals ISP and location. Some may recall the release of Cat's ISP and the ensuing 'right to privacy' discussion that arose. More recently we were all witness to NIM being outed right down to the City, and Internet Cafe he was posting from. There was not much of a 'privacy issue' voiced at this outing. How did I feel about that incident? As one who has 17 years in the industry I know for a fact that there were other ways to deal with this issue other than outing a person by deploying 'technoid warfare' publicly on the Forum.

Do I feel posts perceived as threatening are appropriate? No.
Do I have all the answers as to the best way to deal with the recipient/sender of such a post? No
Is there a single poster on this Forum qualified in diagnosing an individual's emotional state? No
Will I ever post without using an alias here again? Never

Take care,
The Happy Luddite
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 09:19:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Anonymity? Feh!
Message:
Happy,

Reading your many good reasons for entering yourself into the Eternal Ex-premie Witness Protection Program reminds me how good it feels to not be anonymous. I'm sure you're right that, assuming that one wants to avoid identification there are continuing 'security' issues persisting and arising anew from time to time, but I'm just really happy to never think about that.
You know, we don't discuss this subject all that much here. It's a bit of a sacred cow, in a way. Kind of like religion and politics. :) But I don't mind saying when I get a chance that there's nothing quite like feeling one has nothing to hide about the stupid guru cult and, more importantly, no reason to hide from the cult leader himself.

Really, some times I wonder what all you anonymous ex's worry about. The chance that a rogue premie's going to assissinate you or something? Kidnap your children? Hire Ted Patrick's brother to reprogram you? Or is it just the discomfort of knowing that Maharaji might learn here the undeniable truth that he might as well forget waiting for you in his next darshan line, that those days are over?

You know, I can understand premies interest in posting anoymously. What a weird trip it is to stand by the Lord of the Universe these days. Everyone seems to want to rip your sari off. God forbid (you hope!).

I wonder if people who post anonymously think much about whether they'll do so indefinitely and, if so, if that isn't one major concession of sorts to the guru.... (sorry, I can't remember his name right now. What was it?)
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:28:51 (EDT)
From: Felix
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Avoidance! Feh!
Message:
You know, we don't discuss this subject all that much here. It's a bit of a sacred cow, in a way. Kind of like religion and politics. :)

Yes, we've noticed Jim :),
and its sort of like
burying your head in the sand.

Enjoy your new religion Jim!

PS: I'm using an alias too.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:43:08 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Anonymity? Feh!
Message:
Jim,

It is a bit scary telling people your name over this forum, and the reason for that fear isn't always examined that closely. I'm like you - I have no problem telling everyone who I am and where I live (for those who missed it it's John Brauns from Leeds, living in London, number in the phone book - last time I checked it's the only Brauns in London). Truth is very liberating, no one can catch you out. However, if other people want to be anonymous I have no problem with that because this is a bit scary.

All the best,

John.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 10:48:20 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Hi Scott,

Whoops, there goes that alias, but I'm sure you can think of another.

So why did you have to change your telephone number?

And who's doing the diagnosis of anyone's emotional state here? Saying someone is ''paranoid'' doesn't count.

This is so much ''paranoid'' bullshit:

Perhaps it is the crumbs of the Maharini cookie left in our psyche, but for some reason or another participants are unwilling to acknowledge that Maharaji has re-invented his image to one of a Corporate Private Investor World Wide Web Four Techniques dude. I feel that ample proof has been provided that Rawat's financial empire was and continues to be built upon the blind trust of premies from the seventies, eighties, and nineties. This blind trust coupled with an insular web of corporate entities consisting of, among other things, renowned attorneys as Officers or Registered Agents should be a wake up call as to who Maharaji really is. In my opinion his sole purpose in life 'now' is an overwhelming lust for power, wealth, and total manipulation of an individual who may have stumbled into the EV/VI cross hairs whilst being driven by an inherent yearning for truth, or a purpose in life, or a quest to know God. Can Maharaji be sued or reported to the IRS? Come on now; look at his legal counsel of the feeder corporations.

So what! I think we know what Fatfuck is all about. It's insulting for you to say what you've said here. And his ''sole purpose now'' has always been his agenda.

There was not much of a 'privacy issue' voiced at this outing.

Oh yes there was!!! My personal reaction was ''so what?''

What's your point? We should desist? Be more careful? Of what?? What are you afraid of?????

Aoplogies ahead of time if, in my great omniscience I am wrong and this is not Scott.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 07:06:01 (EDT)
From: Felix
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
So what! I think we know what Fatfuck is all about. It's insulting for you to say what you've said here.

What a fucking arrogant statement! You THINK you know what Fatfuck is all about, but you haven't even scraped the surface.

Try taking some concrete action against Fatfuck, and then you'll discover who he is.

And who your TRUE friends are as well.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 11:05:56 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Felix
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Ok so this is not Scott. Sorry to have offended you. I'm really curious now. Who do you think Maharaji is? Do you think he has special powers? Do you think he is above the law?

I'm not at all interested in taking ''concrete action'' against him. It's not my job, man. Although I would join a class action suit against him, should one occur,

Your posts are very cryptic; is there any surprise you are not understood? Can you please elaborate? Is this Joey? I don't want to get into a pissing match with Joey! I like Joey and hope the best for him.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:01:27 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Who Am I Gerry
Message:
This is completely out of context but I went to the inactive index and saw what you wrote about the 'who am I' exercise. Well, I have something even weirder to tell you/ when I did that exercise I got in touch with my ape ancestors. So does that make me a big ape? Maybe we are all just animals. That's okay, nothing wrong with that. I'm proud to be a related to apes. Apes are cool
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:33:19 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Who Am I Gerry
Message:
LOL at the ape-woman! And I get the feeling you're spoofing me. Try it for a couple of days and see what happens.

Did you see the movie ''Instinct?'' Not that I'm recommending it, but it concerned African great apes. Such beautiful creatures.

The movie crushed me. It was very well done and extremely, er, moving, to say the least. But I could have lived without it.

Gerry the no longer seeking (apologies to Anth)
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:14:21 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Who Am I Gerry
Message:
Me fine female gorilla. Me like you, Gerry. Tell me more about movie, movie sad tears or happy smiles? Movie make Helen cry or laugh?Movie about sick humans kill apes? Me go now have to finish fine fruit snack and play with all ball kitten.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:50:07 (EDT)
From: Gerry the Apeman
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Who Am I Gerry
Message:
Welcome to the world of hominoids! It was a very sad movie and yeah the idiot humans did their stupid thing but that wasn't the focus of the movie, but it was what did me in.
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 00:30:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Gerry the Apeman
Subject: Who Am I Hairy?
Message:
Dear Gerry,
You just don't know how badly I wanted to post to this when I was lurking...It is all coming together, Jim saying anyway anyone imagined you you would be wrong! Then your confession as Hairy, not Apeman. It's all true isn't it, and it is beyond just a hairy back isn't it, hmmmmmmmmmmm??? :)
Love ya my fuzzy friend,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 12:04:20 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Of course, this is an excellent medium for discussing the issue of gun control (see huge thread below) and in case any of the spies are reading this, let it be known that I myself have a huge collection of arms (kind of like the many-armed buddha) and so I don't have to worry about people discovering my ISP and phone numbers.

=)

Love and Never Surrender,
Victoria
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 12:44:15 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Gun Control thread
Message:
It would be really nice and polite if these fellows would debate these issues and other political issues on Sir Dave's ''Say Anything'' forum or else create a place for their very off topic debates somewhere else in the unlimited world of cyberspace.

Just my opinion and I don't mean to infringe on anyone's rights. But it's kinda like saying ''OK you guys, take it outside.''
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 22:58:10 (EDT)
From: mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim-yes about the children
Message:
Jim it is not just the 'cult' but there may be some of us that remain anonymous do so to prevent Premies from our past
deducing where we might be.
Try domestic violence and knowledge of criminal activities.
You sound nieve.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:26:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mom
Subject: 'Some' means how many?
Message:
Jim it is not just the 'cult' but there may be some of us that remain anonymous do so to prevent Premies from our past
deducing where we might be.
Try domestic violence and knowledge of criminal activities.
You sound nieve.


Oh yeah, I guess this might be an issue with some exes. But not that many, eh? Be reasonable.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:57:12 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: anonymity is OK with me
Message:
Hi Jim and all -
Just a comment on this issue:
I correspond with several people who prefer to remain anonymous. Some of these people have some real good reasons, IMHO. Child custody/visitation issues are probably the number one problem among the anonymous people that I've talked to (their ex-spouses and/or relatives are premies). Many people have spouses, ex-spoused, bosses, co-workers, relatives, and friends that are premies, and they are reluctant to 'out' themselves because of that. People who 'know too much' about certain aspects of the premie world may also be reluctant to use their real names. Finally, some of these anonymous people just want to be able to go to a program if they so desire.

Jim, I've always appreciated your non-anonymous stance, and I think it makes a lot of people feel better that you are standing up publically and posting what you do under your own name. But I also appreciate other peoples' reasons for remaining anonymous.

Take care -
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:54:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I find that hard to believe
Message:
Child custody/visitation issues are probably the number one problem among the anonymous people that I've talked to (their ex-spouses and/or relatives are premies). Many people have spouses, ex-spoused, bosses, co-workers, relatives, and friends that are premies, and they are reluctant to 'out' themselves because of that.

What you're saying is that the main reason people won't post their names here is that they're hiding their kids from their other parent. Katie, that's absurd.

The main three reasons exes are anonymous, as far as I can tell, are:

1) They don't want the stigma amongst their still-premie friends that Charlie's talking about above;

2) They're intimidated by the cult somehow -- or at least they think they are;

3) They're not a hundred per cent sure Maharaji's fake and don't want to burn any bridges.

I'm not saying people shouldn't continue posting anonymously if they want. I am saying, though, that, other considerations aside, there are psychological benefits to stepping out of the shadows. It also makes something of a point against and about the on-again, off-again Lord of the Universe. I mean what if we were all anonymous? Wouldn't that create the impression for some at least (not saying that it's accurate of course) that the cult's really powerful and scary and all that? Well, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't. It's just Weenieland.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:22:22 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I find that hard to believe
Message:
Dear Jim -
I want to clarify something - I said that child custody issues were the number one issue with the people I've talked to. I didn't say it was the number one issue in general - I have, obviously, no idea what that is. All I know is what people tell me, Jim.

You wrote:
What you're saying is that the main reason people won't post their names here is that they're hiding their kids from their other parent. Katie, that's absurd.

That is NOT what I said. The people I have talked to about child custody issues are afraid of getting into some battle with premie ex-spouses or relatives over whether they can see their kids, or nephews or nieces, or grandchildren, and so forth. As you probably know, ex-spouses can create a LOT of problems for spouses by bringing court cases and so forth, even if the ex-spouses LOSE these cases. As far as grandchildren/nieces/nephews, etc. are concerned, that can be a very gray area (at least here in the US). The people I have talked to with this problem do not want to have to bring suit if visitation is witheld.

I really hope you can understand this. It's an emotional issue for many people. I am sure you are aware than many ex-spouses sue for custody when they don't even want it in order to gain a psychological advantage over the other ex-spouse. I am trying to say that there are people here who do not want to have to deal with that.

I agree with what you say about stepping out of anonymity being freeing (I'm obviously not anonymous here). However, you and I do NOT have children, do NOT have premie relatives, and we haven't had to deal with this issue.

Take care -
Love,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:33:52 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I find that hard to believe
Message:
Jim , what a slash and burn , silly atttitude.

Is it from these 3 points that you have listed that you base your discussions on?

I find the last one absurd. How dare you hold such an assinine notion in your head when you post among the exs here.

It sounds like you need to hold back and appreciate how others feel and what they are doing instead of possibly subconsciously measuring them up to your fathom yardstick.

cp
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 20:56:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: I find that hard to believe
Message:
I find the last one absurd. How dare you hold such an assinine notion in your head when you post among the exs here.

It sounds like you need to hold back and appreciate how others feel and what they are doing instead of possibly subconsciously measuring them up to your fathom yardstick.


What you call absurd is my conjecture that some people post anonymously because they're not a hundred per cent sure M's fake. cp, several exes have at time said as much. Newly out of the cult they choose to stay anonymous because they're not exactly sure what they believe. You think I'm wrong? Fine. You tell me then why you think people post anonymously. (Besides the obvious family law reasons, I mean.)

And tell me as well, if you don't mind, just how pissed you are at my categorical dismissal of astrology as bullshit. I can't help but think that bears on this. Am I wrong?
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 06:36:42 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I find that hard to believe
Message:
Your categoric dismissal of astrology ILLUSTRATED to me
your tenendcy to let your prejudices come into a discussion in inappropriate ways.
If innappropriate seems like the wrong word, I was just calling upon your legal wits to view what you were saying ,
when you were saying it, and if it was bieng brought into the conversation in order to sway your point with emotionalism.
Thats all.

It its just a trait I have noticed. This family law point, as you put it, demonstrates again the same tendency to generalize and miss-diagnose left and right.

In the past I have refrained from butting in on your conversations with premeis, because most of the time I agree with your general drift.. Maybe this time, because the conversation is with exes, it feels safe enough to wade in and say this .

No big deal, but I'll let you know if it crops up again, no daoubt. But it will depend on the situation.

I think you are wrong in generalizing like that .
It never occurred to me to be that curious why someone post
without revealing themselves. It doesnt bother me because we were in a vile cult for gods sake.
An insidious one.
'Family law' is only one angle. Lots of premie's activities were financed by questionable activities and lots of exes were wittnesses to it.
All for the sake of getting to programs or gilding the streets of LOARDO.
If you cant see that premies, still programmed to act without thinking or feeling, can be a psycological/physical hazard to some exes, then I dont know how to explain.

If this is the case with ANY exs, then I think that posting anonymously should be accepted and tolerated WITHOUT
critisism or harrassment.

So what if posters are wavering because they are not sure.about the Hoard.. So WHAT?

Badgering them to reveal their identity diverts the purpose
purpose of them being here, which, I would think , would be to explore their own fellings and experience.

I would rather see them get the space to go throught the process than forcing exposure of the few dumb premies who try to subvert on the forum. The premies stick out like a sore thumb and are a distraction rather than a problem.
But you have been around longer than I, these are just some late night thoughts.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:01:47 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: for the record
Message:
1) I never 'badgered' anyone to not post anonymously.

2) Astrology's nonsense.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 12:37:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cp
Subject: One more thing
Message:
I'd say that persons who've left m & k long time ago have NO IDEA how bad the cult has become.

M was almost giving darshan publicly, premies were not hiding their devotion too much (at least most of them), fundraisings were publicly advertised, everybody could access the residence freely and enter m's drawing room, sleep on his bed (I did), access to programs was free, k was given easily, etc etc

For about 15 years DLM has gone underground, hiding and burrying everything, and the premies have been deeply affected by this.

I guess the result of this is a feeling of fear and paranoia for many premies and ex-es. And you can see the results here....
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 02:00:07 (EDT)
From: mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Some' means how many?
Message:
Do you really think that exs post here anonymously
may be making a concession to the Goobledygook?

I have never seen you put it like that before.

Is that what is behind your stance against this practice.?

If it is, please be assured that there are other means of
helping people out of the cult besides your particular style.

This is not to say that your style and outspokeness is not necesary in the general campaign, but it is only PART of the campaign.
Everyone here and lurking has their own style of battle and please keep in mind that yours, which you are very good at, represents only one style.

Be reasonable.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:59:12 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: mom
Subject: emotional support & forum
Message:
Great thread everyone. Yes, mom, I agree. To me, the first 'campaign' is to offer emotional support to ex-es here. If they feel safer or just more comfortable posting anonymously then better that they do that then not post at all.

The important thing for me is the emotional support, the philosophical & political debate and the logical arguments about M and knowledge are important too. But the foremost goal of the forum to me, is to reach out to ex-es and disenchanted/confused premies and offer a helping hand.
Katie I liked your friend's thoughts on this medium a lot.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:05:53 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: anonymous and abuse
Message:
I agree that being anonymous and posting under an alias and not revealing too much information about one's self is acceptable.

However, I believe that the excessive use of too many bogus posting aliases undermines the objective of making the Forum a safe and trusting place.

No, I'm not talking about using an phony alias when posting extremely private information that could forever be tied to the permanent alias, or posting using an obvious bogus id for satire or similar reasons. It's the use of bogus aliases by premies and ex-premies for the purpose of abuse or confusion.

Sorry, that's kind of where I am right now.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:07:23 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: too hot around here now
Message:
barney
I agree with you. I'm not sure why you think I wouldn't agree with you on this. I agree it's better to post under one name. Except for bill who seems to have a different moniker every few months but we all know it's him. and except for Little Yiddish Grandma. Minnesota Housewife, and Tami Rainbow, but everyone knows they are me, except there is someone else here who likes to be Tami sometimes cause it's so much fun to be a bimbo bongo.
I heard that Sir D thinks I am someone over on the anything goes forum but I'm not, I don't even hang out there. we all like to play with characters and since I do it alot I think he thinks I'm one of the charcacters over there!!

Anyway, you take care barney. looks like you're having a rough time right now. I don't really understand what is going onand I have to admit that I usually don't read threads where people are arguing too much, it's too much like being a kid again growing up in my alcoholic home--ha ha. It's too scary to me, this talk about legal action. So anyway feel free to e-mail me if you want to talk.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 21:22:50 (EDT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Spek four urself
Message:
Helin, it iz unfare to say I am yu. I am not yu. I am Tami and also a studint of my mastir. Yu ex primis ar just confuzed and in yur minds.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 17:33:40 (EDT)
From: mom
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: emotional support & forum
Message:
Helen
Thanks for the post.
You are right about the word Campaign. I couldnt think of that aspect very clearly while I was focusing on the other.
What a Life!
MOM
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 15:00:08 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Luddite, please elaborate
Message:
Like you I have years and years of high tech experience and my first post on the Internet was in 1987 or so.

Can you elaborate on the lack of privacy since at the very best without an FBI search warrant it is very difficult to get any information other than an IP address?


Unless your IP is your registered domain there is typically not much information other than the name of the ISP and city at best.

1. How does one get your email address from using Ex-Premie.org?
2. How does one get your telephone number from using Ex-Premie.org?

You might have read some of my posts on security where I discussed some of these issues:

1. Make sure you're using a browser that doesn't give up your email address.

2. Make sure you cannot be FINGERED. You will have to contact your ISP to remove that information if it is revealed.

BTW, I just read that it is best not to use a DEBIT card when purchasing items on the Internet because unlike CREDIT cards which have a $50 limit for false purchases a DEBIT card gets reimbursed after the investigation which might take months.

Addressing some of your issues:

Catweasel's IP address was collected from the Paradise forum known as Premies and Friends run by CD. CD has since changed the configuration to not reveal the IP address of posters. And I don't recall who posted it.

Hopefully, by addressing the following topic it will not open the can of worms again.

witness to NIM being outed right down to the City, and Internet Cafe he was posting from

Yes, I posted this about Nim. However, I do not believe that I posted the name of the Internet cafe nor the IP address. That post is currently in limbo between the Inactive posts and the Archives and I'm unable to reproduce it here.

Perhaps it was a violation in privacy. However, following a trail to an Internet cafe will most likely not get you the real person because providing ID at an I-Cafe is usually not required. If only the perpetrator of the Melissa virus had pushed his virus from an Internet cafe he might not have been tracked down by the FBI to the phone line attached to his home computer. Duh!

It is suggested by the Forum rules to not hop around using too many posting handles (yes, I'm guilty too, but have not done so to flame as we saw in this case.) I feel that there is a need to know whom one is talking to whether it's a real name or a regularly used alias. I believe that this is also true when someone is mounting a vigorous offensive. If you recall some of the Ex-Premies were under the impression that the attacks on me and others were coming from a Premie. Upon realizing that that was not the case I wanted to clarify that. Also, it was pretty transparent by the content as to the identity of the poster.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 01:44:37 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
More recently we were all witness to NIM being outed right down to the City, and Internet Cafe he was posting from. There was not much of a 'privacy issue' voiced at this outing.

I was appalled to see that it happened in the first place. Since then Katie and I have seen to it that nobody demonstrating a willingness to violate people's privacy has access to that information.

How did I feel about that incident? As one who has 17 years in the industry I know for a fact that there were other ways to deal with this issue other than outing a person by deploying 'technoid warfare' publicly on the Forum.

I agree completely, and am totally dissatisfied with the rationalizations offered to justify it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 02:37:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I don't get it, I really don't
Message:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something but isn't it true that 'Nim' had already stepped forward out of the shadows and let everyone know he was really Joey? So then he gets banned for being ... well, the point is he's banned. So then he tries to sneek in under some psuedonym and gets busted on it. What's the big deal? It's not like he'd opted for anonymity for his real self. Under a fake name, after being barred, he takes further pot shots at the guy he knows can at least partially trace him -- and who wouldn't in those circumstances? -- and Barney then puts it all together for the general audience.

I mean did anyone get upset when Shp got outed for posting as GI et al?

Really, Brian, anyone, I just don't see the ethical problem here. Care to explain?
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 03:18:24 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Meandering Threadworms
Message:
My praise for framed viewing has given way to disdain for framed posting. That damn post up there didn't receive any of my corrections! Acchh!!

There's three issues being discussed here. Katie started talking about long term support for exes in terms of her friend's reluctance to post. Her friend perceives an antagonistic atmosphere.

Then there's the anonymity discussion relating to issues of personal security for exes who post here. I dont see Happy Luddite's point (as far as how M apparently got his number). It's hard for me to buy that, but I am careful to post anonymously and make a point to avoid Mirage's websites sites like the plague for that reason.

Then, we got the freedom of forum speech issue. Should people get blocked, ever? I don't treat this with the ultimate seriousness that some do. We're not the goddamned home of the free. I really don't want to be in a premie dominated ex-prem forum even if that means it's not an open forum. That's my preference personally. I just don't want to argue with those jerks all day (altho someone said they are gone due to new agya). Even if you don't agree with me on this, I still don't think it's such an ultimate issue. If someone was blocked and it should NEVER be done, then we won't do it.

I am more interested in discussing the support issues that Katie opened up withs These other issues are important but they are obscuring support issues.

I do not intend to post anonymously for all of eternity, BUT, if I never get around to posting openly I won't cry about. Who or what is it that I am supposed to owe this to?

I correspond with exes and associate with them privately and want that to develop. It's important to me to continue that, not whether or not I post my real name on line.

Again, the 'neural surfer' website has some forums on it which are really of interest to us as far as how some of the issues discussed are dealt with.

And thanks, Selene.

Hey Barney, okay but it just sounds like a lot of shit to get over. Trying to quantify it may have been a mistake on my part. It's a gut reaction that some people are out there (Joey is another example) just flipping from years Miragey bull.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:12:25 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Meandering Threadworms
Message:
'BUT, if I never get around to posting openly I won't cry about. Who or what is it that I am supposed to owe this to?

I correspond with exes and associate with them privately and want that to develop. It's important to me to continue that, not whether or not I post my real name on line.'

Nice points, Run.
I concur.
VP
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 07:47:20 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm not surprised
Message:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something but isn't it true that 'Nim' had already stepped forward out of the shadows and let everyone know he was really Joey?

Thats not what the outting was about.
I was originally banned from participating from my own home under my own alias Nim, or my name Joey. The ban was a result of barney's fundamental inability to deal with anyone who opposed him. His offer for us to sort our problems by email were bullshit. We had the right to deal with them on this page, but Barney found it easier to block me. And he had you propping him up.
So then he gets banned for being ... well, the point is he's banned

You know, I think you still have barney's putz up your ass. You're sounding stupider by the minute...a real magna cum laude asshole. Top two percentile jerk!

THE POINT IS I should NEVER have been banned to begin with, especially for merely mocking the webmaster. And you still have your barney virus, thats why you can't see it.

Under a fake name, after being barred, he takes further pot shots at the guy he knows can at least partially trace him -- and who wouldn't in those circumstances?

Thats right. AND then , what does your blowboy barney do? He bails out. Thats all it took, a few potshots and he did a Wadi Sue and ran. Big brave barney!

Then when Brian has already taken over as webmaster, barney who was no longer in the position, takes it upon himself to out me in terms of the city and the name of the cafe I was posting from.. He knew he was in the wrong . His post was titled ' I CHEATED!'
'The poster is my self-appointed nemesis NIM!!' he cried out in his laughable hysterionics.

And then you had your breakfast in bed with barney:)

I'm not surprised you don't get it Jim. I don't think you hold on to standards of fairness, just whats expedient for you personally. THAT is what you'll define as fair, and attempt to shove down everybody's throat.

Thank goodness we have a webmaster who has no intention of being your blowboy like barney was.
This place will be better off for it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:27:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Put up or shut up, Joey
Message:
Joey,

Why won't you answer my post below where I ask you, not for the first time, to spell out your allegations against Barney? Sure, you've done that in part but all you've already stated here seemed premised on some rock-solid foundation of mistrust, even hatred. As if you knew for a fact that Barney was deceitful and not at all the ex he presented himself as and that this Amtext issue you explained last week was the last straw. You keep saying you have nothing to hide so why the silence?
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:32:15 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Put up or shut up, Joey
Message:
Perhaps he doesn't feel that he is accountable to you, Jim. Or to everyone else on the World Wide Web, for that matter. Believe it or not, there are people walking the face of the earth who don't feel that they exist to satisfy your curiosity or to amuse you. Sad fools, I know...
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:41:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Put up or shut up, Joey
Message:
Perhaps he doesn't feel that he is accountable to you, Jim. Or to everyone else on the World Wide Web, for that matter. Believe it or not, there are people walking the face of the earth who don't feel that they exist to satisfy your curiosity or to amuse you. Sad fools, I know...

Sorry, father, but you seem to forget that Joey's stated more than once here that a) he's got nothing to hide and b) this is the place to do it. It's really unfortunate that you can't appreciate the obvious point that Barney's got a right to his reputation and to defend it when necessary. Too bad.

Next time someone tells you you've got your cock up someone's ass try to remember that he doesn't exist to satisfy your curiosity or amuse you.

Get a grip, man. This is ridiculous.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:23:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jimmy...are we upset?
Message:
Next time someone tells you you've got your cock up someone's ass try to remember that he doesn't exist to satisfy your curiosity or amuse you.

Ah geez, Jim, I see we're having a hard time handling a bit of metaphysical conversation here. Little Jimmy is really getting sensitive. Common, go ballistic, you can do it!

Get a grip, man. This is ridiculous.

YOU get a grip , Jim. You're ridiculous.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:28:38 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Put up or shut up, Joey
Message:
You say to Joey:
I ask you, not for the first time, to spell out your allegations against Barney

And you say to me:
It's really unfortunate that you can't appreciate the obvious point that Barney's got a right to his reputation and to defend it when necessary.

It's unfortunate that you can't appreciate that you're not Barney. Barney's right to defend himself is something that I DO recognize, and I didn't say that you have no right to defend YOUR reputation.

I don't see where anyone has any obligation to account to you or anyone else here for any beef they have against someone else. They can CHOOSE to give you an explanation or not. But they don't owe it to you, Jim.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:30:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Wrong
Message:
Brian,

It's not jsut Barney's reputation. Joey's dragged me into this by calling me all sorts of names for sticking up for Barney. Remember? Ther'es no way in the world I don't have a right to demand an explanation.

Your biases against both me and Barney are showing.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:49:56 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong
Message:
Joey's dragged me into this by calling me all sorts of names for sticking up for Barney. Remember?

Probably not Jim.

Most people will remember you gadly implicating yourself in this entire matter with your relentless attacks on my mental health.

If you really see yourself as a victim in this matter, then you must really have 'barney virus'

BTW, I had a wonderful discussion with a couple of lovely ex premies on the phone last nite.
They assured me that if I was finally beginning to see you for the asshole that you really are....well its a sign that I'm beginning to enjoy...

EXCELLENT MENTAL HEALTH
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:05:21 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I see light!
Message:
Yes, yes, yes!

It's not me. I'm not even me. It's all Jim. Joey has been right all along. I'm merely a figment of Jim's imagination or he's manifesting me or controlling me with Remote Viewing.

Joey, help me! Help me break free!

P.S. Jim please don't take offense. I hope that when I'm out in Tacoma for my conference that I'm still invited to a visit you on your island. How many gold toilets did you say you have? I've never used a gold toilet. Down here in Arkansas all we have are wooden ones.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:50:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: I see bogus blarney!!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:18:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Wrong
Message:
Joey,

I attacked your mental health after you started accusing me of all sorts of stuff. Check it out.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:46:46 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right...
Message:
'I attacked your mental health after you started accusing me of all sorts of stuff. Check it out.' (Jim)

Dear forum friends,

I would like to publicly thank my great and good friend Jim, for NOT attacking my mental health before I started accusing him of all kinds of stuff, but only AFTER.

A finer fiend, hath no man known...whatever!
Regards,

Joey:)
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:08:39 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: blocking vs 'outing'
Message:
Hi again, Jim (and all) -
I think there is some confusion here regarding the subjects of blocking versus outing someone's ISP and location. When Barney was the webmaster, he had the option of setting up new rules for blocking people, and he did. While I didn't necessarily agree with his blocking criteria, this was his choice.

However, 'outing' someone's ISP and location is a completely different issue. I know that you've always been very open about where you live and where you are posting from, but many people here feel very uncomfortable about revealing that information, for reasons I pointed out in my 'anonymity' post above.

Obviously the webmaster here has access to ISP numbers, which can reveal posting location. He/she also has access to information revealed by people in private communications. For example, Brian and I correspond with a lot of premies who prefer to remain anonymous. Brian and I feel VERY strongly that this privileged information does NOT belong on the forum for all to see, no matter whatever else happens on the forum. We do not, have never, and will never, and will never publically reveal ISP location OR information given to us in confidence, regardless of how we feel about the person who gave us this informaton.

Take care,
Katie
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:24:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Look at it this way
Message:
Anonymity on the net is no older a concept than the net itself. The technology keeps changing and, with it, peoples' potential for and expectations of privacy as well. I mean, before the net, who ever thought of communicating with anyone anonymously? Unless you were into prank phone calls of ransom letters. No, I shouldn't say that. There's always the company suggestion box and, perhaps, even the voting booth, if you get right down to it. But, basically, people know -- or knew -- who we were communicating with.

So now this medium springs into action and allows us all to 'safely' post our views about this cult we once inhabited. Hey, it didn't have to be anonymous. It could have been that no one was ever lawfullly allowed or even technologically able to communicate on the net save but by using their name. Would that have stopped all the anonymous posters here from joining this world-wide discussion about Maharaji? I'm sure it would for some, surely not for others. Anyway, the technology does offer potential anonymity and I see so many people take it up on that. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just expedient or something. Less accountability, if nothing else.

Come on, doesn't it bug any of you that you can communicate with someone here for years perhaps and never know who it is you're really talking to? I can live with it. I'm not saying I can't. (In fact, tell me I don't have bigger things to think about!) But I'm just saying that there are costs to all these veils of secrecy.

As for 'outing', shit, the phone company installs 'call display'. Does everyone rise up in arms? No, you just go with the technology. It's not that big a deal. Your privacy expectations change with the medium. Say the web master could never be trusted to keep anyone's address secret but did so only on the expectation that no one's going to harrass anyone else. If they do they get tracked down, outed, the whole nine yards. Would that be a bad policy? No, not necessarily.

I still, can't for the life of me, see why anyone should expect to be able to post ugly insults at the webmaster here and not expect that person to find out who they're coming form and publically denounce them. Really!
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:49:18 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Look at it this way
Message:
I still, can't for the life of me, see why anyone should expect to be able to post ugly insults at the webmaster here and not expect that person to find out who they're coming form and publically denounce them.

Publicly denouncing someone for posting ugly insults happens all the time here. You get insulted and you denounce it. I get insulted and I denounce it.

The access to information that comes with administering the site allows a person the ability to use that in their denouncement, if they so choose. Police carry guns and have the power to arrest. Can they shoot or arrest whomever they want just because they feel insulted? Yes they can. Should they be held accountable for DOING that? I believe so.

But I have to say that I'm fascinated that you view the webmaster as being above criticism. And that I'm looking forward to your loving devotion in the future :)
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:57:42 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Tired being attacked here
Message:
I gotta say that I'm really getting tired of being made out to be the bad guy villain on this whole deal.

I'm tired of the libelous crap coming from Joey.
I'm tired of being stalked by Joey.
I'm tired of feeling threatened by Joey.
I'm tired of the holier-than-thou expressions of disgust for my posting the obvious information that my attacker was coming from an unnamed Internet Cafe in Montreal and was probably Joey who was cowardly posting under a number of aliases. It a red herring that privacy was betrayed. Big deal - some Internet Cafe in Montreal.

You know, when I took the job I wanted to make the Forum a better place where there would be less outright harassment from trolls and others sneaking around behind bogus aliases sucking the emotional support out of the Forum and creating an atmosphere of fear.

One thing that struck this point home was the Quasi-Premie rampage back in March or April. It went on far too long and scared and annoyed a lot of people here. It could have been stopped earlier, but for some reason was allowed to go on and on. There needs needs to be some protection and accountability here because one or two nutcases can quickly make it pretty scary for everybody.

The exalted idea of Freedom of Expression and Home of the Free holds true only on a soapbox on a street corner or your personal website. I strongly believe that a lot of people on the Forum would prefer that excessive and outrageous posting be restricted. I have received numerous emails and have read a number of posts about the Joey incident that has left people feeling fearful.

As a place for people to come for information, sharing, and emotional support allowing such extreme behavior is very counterproductive, IMO. What purpose does it serve? Allowing someone to vent absolutely slanderous lies is sadistic. And there is no accountability behind the cowardly act of hiding behind numerous posting aliases while doing so.

The good people of the Forum deserve better and I am sorry that I failed in my attempt to do that.

As far as judging people's mental condition it is completely unrealistic to believe that it is not a part of the human array of tools to detect bullshit. We are always examining verbal and non-verbal clues, regardless of the medium, as to the quality of the source of the information - in person, on the phone, in writing, or electronic communiqué. And sometimes you have to be honest and forget the polite etiquette and call it how it is and blurt out that the emperor has no clothes. This, IMHO, is especially true when someone is making wild and baseless accusations, making threats, and scaring the shit out of everyone after all reasonable and polite private efforts have been completely ignored.

Yeah, I'm bad, really bad.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:59:12 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Tired being attacked here
Message:
I'm tired of the libelous crap coming from Joey.

And your attack against my mental health wasn't libelous?

I'm tired of being stalked by Joey.

You stalked me, only with more subtlety and cleverness.

I'm tired of feeling threatened by Joey

There you go fanning the flames of paranoia again. Stop thinking of yourself as a victim here, it might help.

It a red herring that privacy was betrayed. Big deal - some Internet Cafe in Montreal.
Well thats what matters of privacy boil down to for you...'red herring'. No wonder that we can all breathe a sigh of relief that you're no longer the webmaster.

Its certainly no red herring that you're a pathological fuckbrain liar. The name of the place WAS 'Internet Cafe'! It wasn't JUST an internet cafe , that was its name, ('INTERNET CAFE') Stupid!!
You're playing with the truth again!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 18:56:10 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Go, Joey, Go!
Message:
Yabba Dabba Doo!

You're on a real roll today! Keep going and lay on some facts and details of my alleged wrongdoings.

I'm going to respond to some your post here. Forgive me if I don't follow Generally Accepted Posting Emphasis Replication (GAPER.)

Me: I'm tired of the libelous crap coming from Joey.

Joey: And your attack against my mental health wasn't libelous?

Me New: The truth is a viable defense in libel cases. Look at yourself, man, you're back and more rabid than ever. You are a very intelligent and articulate person and a lot of people here enjoy you, but you need to step back and ask yourself what is this about. Maybe I'm a minority here, but I am completely confused and baffled. Sure, you've taken a beating here and feel angry, but so much of your stuff about me and others is overblown or completely false. Why, Joey, why?

Please consider that approximately one month ago before I was announced as the most hated webmaster of all time I privately emailed you trying in the nicest way to work this out. You did not respond.


Me: I'm tired of being stalked by Joey.

Joey: You stalked me, only with more subtlety and cleverness.

Me New: No, not true. In the beginning (mid April?) I mostly shrugged off your insane and rude comments to me. Remember Joey, you started this and I have every right to defend myself from you wild delusional allegations.

Me: I'm tired of feeling threatened by Joey

Joey: There you go fanning the flames of paranoia again. Stop thinking of yourself as a victim here, it might help.

Me New: Joey, please elaborate on exactly what my crimes were and are. You came out of nowhere to attack me months ago.

Also, I'm no longer the only victim here as you keep adding good folks to your list of enemies.


The following is not libelous because it is true:

You're really out there!
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 00:19:37 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: jfb@netc.net
To: barney
Subject: Go, blarney, Go!
Message:
Barney,

Here is who I am. My name is,
JOSEPH FAYWLOWICZ
I live at
4655 Plamondon Avenue, apt #33
Montreal, Quebec H3W 1E4
(just a ten minute walk from the one and only 'INTERNET CAFE':)

My phone number is :

514-731-1871

Now barney , when you're ready to join the human race as a normal human being, and not a colossal chicken shit in hiding,
you can always come out yourself, and sue me.

Or you can keep blabbing your sick fuck of a head off!!

Your choice.

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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:23:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey, you ARE indeed paranoid
Message:
Now that I've got the time I'm re-reading Joey's reply to Barney. Christ, Joey, it's absolute textbook paranoia. For example, Barney complains about your 'libelous crap' against him. Crap which, until you can prove otherwise, does indeed draw into question your mental stability. So what do you say? You counter that Barney's just as bad, 'attacking' your mental health, 'libelling' you in the process. Joey, can't you see what you're doing? Every paranoid person does this. They avoid the initial dispute as soon as it drifts into a question of their mental health and focus only on that. Classic.

Then Barney mentions that he's tired of being stalked by you and you counter that he's been stalking you too. You're mad if you really believe this, Joey. Hopefully you don't. Look, even if you were right and Barney's Doctor No, he hasn't been stalking you. You, on the other hand, have kept coming out of left field and taking ugly potshots at him. That's the simple truth. Live with it.

Then he says, quite understandably, that he's tired of feeling threatened by you and all you can say, you crazy fuck, is that he's 'fanning the flames of paranoia again'. Joey, you have no idea how crazy you sound and that, my friend, is the greatest evidence you'll ever need that you're losing it. Face it, Joey, you are indeed freaking people out here. Do you or don't you realize that?

The only issue here is whether it's right or effective to confront you here instead of privately. Joey, my personal opinion is that you're not in some sort of shrinking violet state of mind that can't handle a bit of attention. (I wish.) Plus, I think you deserve to be confronted here because, crazy or not, you are on the attack here.

Again and again I've asked you to state your case so others can judge whetehr or not you've got any just cause for accusing Barney of... what, Joey? What exactly are you accusing him of anyway? Anyway, you've failed to put up or even show any major interest in doing so. I've got more bad news for you. That, too, is proof that you're not sound right now. You seem to be impervious to the fact that everyone here wants to know what the fuck your'e talking about. Contrary to Brian's suggestion that this has nothing to do with anyone but you and Barney, you've attacked this entire enterprise by suggesting that the guy running the show couldn't be trusted. If you were of sound mind you'd realize how urgently people want to know what's going on here. But you don't and that, more than anything, makes you look like you're travelling in your own emotional orbit.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:48:03 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're off the wall man!
Message:
Jim,

I won't bother responding to your renewed pathetic onslaught,against the state of my mental health. You're just playing cheap, third rate, lawyering techniques of manipulation.

The only thing is that when it comes to manipulation, they were better at Amtext...or maybe I'm a little smarter now, who knows:)

I have already stated for you in a clear concise fashion what the 'fuss' was all about. If you missed it, it really isn't my problem. I won't bother to repeat myself for you.

I wont be violating anyones sense of security and well being just because barney has done so.

I've told you already that I made as complete a report as possible to Brian and Katie, and it was in consultation with them that it was decided this would be done off forum, for the sake of the well being of the ex in question who under the advisement of his/ her lawyer has withdrawn from participating in the forum. Also in the interest from keeping the whole matter from blowing up the forum.

What i've been attacking here today, is barneys blatant lies regarding the outting, which I know you don't give a shit about,
but then again , maybe we care about different things.

barney showed his fundamental disregard for a very important policy re privacy and security which had previously BEEN respected,
by outting me, and he did so boldly and brazenly by entitling his post I CHEATED!! For the record theres only one cafe in Montreal, named 'Internet Cafe' and he named it.
Then in his feigned dramatic shreik, he cried out
'Its my self appointesd nemesis, Nim!!'

He violated an important policy re security and privacy, and now he lies about it.

AND NOW YOU want me to violate the sense of security of this ex by revealing his/her situation.

Jim, I think you'll be as effective here as a fart in a windstorm.

And yes Jim, I'm also getting back at you for your insanity bullshit. I think it takes a crazy fuck to know one.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:22:31 (EDT)
From: observer
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Jim, you're off the wall man!
Message:
you say

1. you have already stated what the fuss was about
and
2. you wont be violating anyones sense of security, and you go on about the Internet Cafe.

You have a good argument in the second, maybe some percieved info from Brain.

I must have missed the first, unless your trying to make it the second. PLEEEEZE.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:10:31 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: The Happy Luddite
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Dear Luddite -
I wanted to address a few of the issues that you brought up:

As a direct result of participation on this X-Forum I've had to change my home phone number, my office will be changing my work extension and pager number, and yes, I will be closing my ISP account. I've been actively involved with the Internet for the past twelve years. Is the X/3 forum secure? Unequivocally the answer is NO. Will it ever be secure? I don't think so based simply on technological tools of the age we live in. This is quite simply a very real issue that many are grappling with as we leave the industrial age and move even further into the age of informatics.

You may disagree with me here (and I'd like to hear it if you do), but I do believe that POSTING on the ex-premie forum is secure. Poster information (ISP) and so forth is encrypted here, and NOT by simple encryption.

However, I think I do understand some of the security issues you're referring to. When I first started posting on the forum (then on Usenet), there were a relatively small group of people who posted regularly (I was the only woman who posted regularly - I am sure glad THAT has changed :)!) Anyway, most of the regular posters e-mailed each other and got to know each other behind the scenes. However, as the pool of forum participants has become larger and larger, we DON'T really know each other all that well. I am glad that the forum has gotten so much bigger, but I do miss that sense of really knowing other people here.

I've exchanged e-mails with many, many people who post here. I have no qualms about revealing details of my personal life and family background to these people, because I'm pretty open about that information (for example, it is stuff I would reveal in a therapy group.) However, if I had information about M-related businesses and so forth, I would be VERY careful as to who I revealed that to, both on and off the forum. Since I post under my own name and my e-mail address is known by all, it would be pretty easy to track me down, get my phone number, and so forth (I do understand THAT part of informatics technology).

I have not been a premie since 1977. Many of the rest of us here left in the 70's or early 80's, or at least stopped actively participating then. Almost all of what you (Luddite) refer to as Maharaji's corporate empire has been built since that time. I realize that I'm completely ignorant of many of the issues involved in M's businesses, and I will probably remain pretty ignorant because I just don't understand that stuff (I have always worked in state governments, so that is the only type of organization that I'm familiar with.) However, I do know that when MONEY comes up as an issue, people get mean. As a very small-scale example, just try going through a dispute over a will with relatives sometimes - I HAVE done that!

You also wrote:
Some may recall the release of Cat's ISP and the ensuing 'right to privacy' discussion that arose. More recently we were all witness to NIM being outed right down to the City, and Internet Cafe he was posting from.

I'd just like to point out again that Cat's ISP was obtained from the 'Premies and Friends' forum, which CD has since made more secure. As far as Nim's being outed, well, you can read Brian's opinion on this below. Both Brian and I think this was wrong.

You wrote:
Do I feel posts perceived as threatening are appropriate? No.
Do I have all the answers as to the best way to deal with the recipient/sender of such a post? No
Is there a single poster on this Forum qualified in diagnosing an individual's emotional state? No
Will I ever post without using an alias here again? Never


I appreciate your opinions and views on these matters. (It's quite refreshing to hear someone say that they don't have all the answers :)!) Of course, Brian and I are on the spot when it comes to the best way to deal with a recipient/sender of a threatening post. Barney was too. We are human and fallible, but we do try to deal with these issues using our experience and judgement. Sometimes we make mistakes.

As far as the question Is there a single poster on this Forum qualified in diagnosing an individual's emotional state?

You said No, and I agree with this. In the e-mail from my friend that I quoted at the top of this thread, she makes some very good points about the limitations of electronic communication. I do not think that anyone's posts on this forum can or should be used to define them as a person. Jim was electronically psychoanalyzed by Bruce a few weeks back, and I thought that was completely out of line.

All you see of people here is what they post. I have gotten to know some of the people here via e-mails, phone calls, and personal meetings, and many of them are quite different than they appear on the forum. I feel VERY strongly that the content of people's posts should not used be to 'diagnose' them in any way, or to make assumptions about their character and personality.

While I am a strong believer in the helping power of competent therapy (because it has benefited me considerably), I know other people here who have not sought therapy and have been able to successfully deal with their personal issues on their own. (Also, I feel that an incompetent therapist can do more harm than good.) If other people here have found therapy helpful, I think that's great. However, recommending it for someone else in public (as has been done recently with Nim/Joey) is, in my opinion, WAY out of line. I would be quite insulted if someone did this to me, even though I have been through a lot of therapy.

Thanks for your insights, Luddite. I do hope you keep posting.

Take care -
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:36:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
However, recommending [psychotherapy] for someone else in public (as has been done recently with Nim/Joey) is, in my opinion, WAY out of line. I would be quite insulted if someone did this to me, even though I have been through a lot of therapy.

And how would you feel, dear sweet, most reasonable and sensitive Katie, if someone kept telling you you had your cock up someone else's ass because you didn't subscribe to the

CRAZY

theory that they were an agent of darkness?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:45:17 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And how would you feel?
Message:
And how would you feel, dear sweet, most reasonable and sensitive Katie...

OMIGOD!! What is this!?

Does Jim suddenly care about somebody elses feeling?

Our very own , dear, sweet, most reasonable and sensitive Jimmy???
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:48:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey, I've got a book for you
Message:
Pale Fire by Valdmir Nabokov
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:56:04 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And I've got one for you...
Message:
kosher sex by Shmuley Boteach.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:04:26 (EDT)
From: L'Chiam
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: JF
Message:
Please read em's.

L,
LC
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:40:40 (EDT)
From: AN Asshole
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey/nim ex-premie
Message:
Joey/Nim,

As a heads up to you .

That your duty is not required at this sight.

You are adding to the strength here.

M's events are more important then this place . Right? Rememeber faces can go over the net now too. From country to country . Event to event.

Whats more important to you.

Sincerely

aah
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:56:58 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: AN Asshole
Subject: Joey/nim ex-premie
Message:
Talking about cryptic, this beats ANYTHING, I've ever come up with!

Alright, talk to me An Asshole.

I mean I've been talking to Jim, I've been talking to blarney...talking to YOU would be like moving up in the world!:)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 21:20:20 (EDT)
From: An Asshole
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey/nim ex-premie
Message:
What is your purpose as a writer to this forum ?

What are your goals in talking with ex-premies ?

Do you consider yourself an ex-premie?

Are you a practicing premie?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:05:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Electronic Communication
Message:
Hi Kate and Everyone,

What a juicy thread this is.

I understand your friend’s feelings of vulnerability about posting on the Forum.

We are conditioned to give words in print status and authority. When the words have our name in them, we are hypnotised. Some magic has happened, and ‘Look, that’s me,’ there on the page, or there on the screen. And if those words say something nice about us, our hearts sing. ‘Read it everybody. It’s ME.

But if the words say something hurtful, it’s like punched in the stomach from the inside. Jim described it very well a few days ago. I remember being surprised, as Jim always appeared ironclad and invulnerable to electronic barbs.

Nobody wants that feeling.

It’s easy to start slagging someone off if they’re not a person, simply a pseudonym, or somebody you don’t know. If I know, and like, the person on the receiving end, I feel uncomfortable and I’m not even the target. (Like all the stuff about my old pal Jonathon Cainer. He’s a lovely guy. And I’m sure he doesn’t give a toss who knows he’s a premie.)

The Forum is only a part of the website, and, if you’ve never been here before, there’s loads of interesting other stuff to see. For premies on the way out, for anyone seeking information about Maharaji and the cult, it’s an invaluable resource that is a credit to the people who created it and look after it. It’s the only alternative to the party line from ‘Enjoying Being braindead’.

It’s great that we have the opportunity to express ourselves and put another viewpoint to the Party line.

On the question of anonymity, I feel safer being myself. I don’t think premies are a threat at all. If anything they’re used to keeping a low profile, the old timers I mean. Over the past 10 years or so, I learned to carry my light under a bushel. My ‘deep feelings of devotion’ were no longer fashionable, although I knew, as a divine career move, it’s fatal to give them up.

Anyway,

My wife is demanding the computer.

Gorrago,

Anth the Downtrodden.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 16:32:51 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: WEBMASTER
Subject: STOP THIS LIBELOUS CRAP
Message:
I strongly feel that it is sadistic and, perhaps, unlawful to allow this libelous garbage from Joey to continue here.

Joey is again on the warpath making false allegations that serious impugn my reputation.

For example: and the information that could implicate Barney in it all, should be kept off.

What the hell is this? And what does the webmaster have to say about this? This is complete and total bullshit that doesn't have the right to exist anywhere. Ultimately, it is the webmaster's responsibility to ensure that nothing illegal takes place here and this really crosses the line.

I ask and demand that this be stopped. It's the same insanity that we've seen before, but now it's even more vicious.

And even if Jim hadn't been drawn into this ugly affair by Joey I think that any reasonable person on this public forum has the right to ask questions of someone posting such allegations. Perhaps, some people would like to ask Joey some questions but they are themselves afraid of becoming another victim.

There needs to be accountability here instead of the pious disgust of my so-called outing of Joey.

P.S. Can you please dig out the message where I supposedly reveal the name of the Internet Cafe? I would, but the post is currently in limbo.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 17:10:57 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: STOP THIS LIBELOUS CRAP
Message:
Barney, I haven't been around much lately, except to talk about gun control some with Mike. So I haven't really followed much that has happened, but I would like to say that I agree you do have the right to an explanation of what you are specifically being accused of, but, unfortunately, I don't think you are going to get it, because I don't think there is anything that would withstand the light of day.

Jim, I agree with you that if Joey or anyone is implying some kind of improper conduct on Barneys' part, he should be required to say what it is specifically and give Barney the opportunity to defend himself, especially because has has sked, repeatedly what the complaint actually is. If Joey doesn't explain what it is, then I can't give it any credibility, and I don't think anyone else should either.

From what I can tell it's really simple. Joey is mighty pissed at you (Barney) for blocking him. This is why I have always been against ever blocking people for what they say, unless there is a threat of physical violence, but I do support limiting posts of people who are gumming up the whole forum by multiple postings with no content or just repeating the same stuff over and over. [Catweasel fell into the latter category if you ask me.]

I think blocking people for what they say, as opposed to disruptive behavior, backfires in the long run. Just my opinion, possibly based on ACLU proclivities I was raised with. I remember a long discussion about this about a year ago when we were dealing with the Keith situation. I think the compromise was to limit the NUMBER of posts, not to exclude him entirely.

I did read a some time ago, your post about someone posting from 'an internet cafe in Montreal' but wasn't sure what the context was, and then I later figured it out. You didn't give the name of the cafe as I recall, just the city.

Hang in there Barney. I know it's hard not to take this stuff personally, but try, because otherwise it will drive you nuts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 21:25:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Not quite, JW
Message:
From what I can tell it's really simple. Joey is mighty pissed at you (Barney) for blocking him.

Joe,

If it were only that simple. But it isn't. Barney blocked Joey after he started harrassing him. There appeared to be no rhyme or reason to it. Well, I shouldn't say that. It was more like the typical shit you'd expect from someone experiencing paranoia. Every possible mistake construed as an intentional underhanded ploy. Any explanation for said mistake just proof of the 'dark one's clever scheming and evasive manouvering. I don't know where it all started but I think it had to do with Barney not featuring Amtext when and how Joey wanted him to on House of Drek. And Joe, I tell ya, it was downhill from there.

By the way did you ever read Pale Fire? Did anyone?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:17:30 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: barney
Subject: What the webmaster says
Message:
And what does the webmaster have to say about this? This is complete and total bullshit that doesn't have the right to exist anywhere. Ultimately, it is the webmaster's responsibility to ensure that nothing illegal takes place here and this really crosses the line.

I am unwilling to block people for content, and I realize that you and I differ on that stance. I've done what I can to discourage this topic on the forum, but I'm not going to sit and censor posts as they come in.

If you feel that Joey's statements constitute libel, then it's your right to pursue it legally. As for the posts in question - they were off-topic and probably deleted from the inactive index since they aren't going to be archived. Most (if not all) of this thread will not be archived either. This is not a new policy. If you feel that any posts here might serve as evidence in a legal action, then by all means save them to disk.

I spoke with Joey on the phone for 3 hours and came away understanding his viewpoint. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but at least I have a good feel for why he believes what he believes. I also came away believing that he isn't crazy - web-based psychologist's opinions aside.

Is he mistaken or flat-out wrong about some things that he's said here? I believe so. But my agreement or disagreement has NEVER been the criteria for whether someone should be allowed to post here.

I've spoken to you on the phone in the past. I came away with an understanding of how you feel and why you feel that way. I don't believe that you are crazy. I believe that you are mistaken on some things that you believe, but you are still free to post here.

Maybe we could benefit from some clear policy on these sorts of accusations leveled on the forum, but I'm not interested in having to be caught in the middle of each dispute as they come up or to oversee some web-based jury. Perhaps the next webmaster will find it useful to impliment that policy, but I find it to be a waste of my time.

This is a HOT forum. People come in here with a back-log of unfelt and uncontrolled emotions. They bring their fears, their self-doubts, their grudges and their own personal brand of paranoia. This forum provides them with a platform to vent, to share, to support each other, or to argue with each other. I've seen them get angry and stomp off, and I've seen them come back.

My job isn't to mediate arguments, although I've tried to become better informed about people's stances on this one since it caught me flat-footed with the change of site management and I was open to having to re-block Joey at some time in the future. Were that to have happened, it would have to have been for reasons that I was VERY clear on.

My job is simply to maintain this site and forum. We discourage off-topic posts here, but we don't outlaw them. We also DO NOT BLOCK just because someone has taken a personal shot at someone else - cheap or not. We don't publish people's IP addresses, or devulge what is confided to us in private.

It's been that way since Forum I, and has remained that way through 3 different webmasters. It was that way when many of the people now participating in the forum were off at events. When those who are off at events NOW eventually come wandering in here, they will find a place where they can finally and freely speak their minds - however crazy their words might sound to anyone else.

That's what the webmaster has to say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 19:55:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: What the webmaster says
Message:
I spoke with Joey on the phone for 3 hours and came away understanding his viewpoint. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but at least I have a good feel for why he believes what he believes. I also came away believing that he isn't crazy - web-based psychologist's opinions aside.

Brian,

Joey's accused Barney of being a spy or a 'plant' of something sinister along those lines. You now say you have a 'good feel' for why he thinks all that and that, as far as you can tell, it's not an irrational opinion. What the hell's going on? Should I be worrying about the ten thousand dollars I sent Barney for site upkeep as we were all requested to do by email last month? Are you saying there just might be some good reason for thinking that Joey's not paranoid?

Something's got to give here, Brian. Either Barney's no more a spy than you are and Joey's got some serious apologizing to do or Barney's got to send me back that money and now! Which is it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 23:45:09 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A Duel!
Message:
I say we should challenge Barney and Nim
to a humor duel.
Who can be funniest.

If that is not possible, I think they should
both realize that those of us that read
the posts are not jurors.

I myself have the power to ban someone from the forum.
I have to make effort to read the thoughts,
My mouse learns which sections of the maze
are dead ends and which ones get me the cheese.

I would post on threads that catweasel and shp
and others posted on but I knew what was waiting
in their posts so I just would not do it to myself.
Catweasel DID post after mine sometimes but
I just couldn't be bothered.
No need to touch the tarbaby!

I'm glad others can stomach the fight but I'm
outside of the ring right now and if either
Nim or Barney want out of the ring,
it is a mouse click away.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:26:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Thanks but no thanks, Bill
Message:
I say we should challenge Barney and Nim
to a humor duel.
Who can be funniest.
If that is not possible, I think they should
both realize that those of us that read
the posts are not jurors.


Bill,

That's a really wimp ass thing to say. Put yourself in Barney's shoes, will you? Joey deserves to be confronted fairly and squarely, no bullshit. He's fixated for no apparent rational reason on Barney and his evil plot to do who-knows-what and shouldn't be patronized, humoured or even ignored. He should be confronted. He should have to spell it all out (crazy fuck's already saying now that that's water under the bridge and that anyone paying attention would already know just why Barney's the scourge of the earth or whatever). Barney deserves that. Barney deserves for everyone how little fire's behind Joey's smoke. Not to have people joke about them like they're two kids having a little sandbox fight or something.

I mean how should Barney feel right now? That it's so blatantly obvious that Joey's nuts that he shouldn't even think for a second about his campaign to smear him? That everyone knows beyond question how deslusional Joey is? Or not? Because if that's not the case and some people are really confused by all this (which, I think, is a more accurate picture) Barney has the right to make the picture as clear as possible.

This isn't pleasant but it's necessary. Look, it's apparent that Joey's not about to stop this bullshit. And if you were Barney would you stick around if all it meant was that some crazy idiot kept senselessy attacking you without sanction? It would be patently unfair for Barney to be chased away from here by the ravings of some madman. And that's what I see happening if someone doesn't stand up to this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 16:04:43 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks but no thanks, Bill
Message:
I hear you Jimmie,
I think that Barney and Nim could stand to be reminded that
we make up our own minds here and if ANYONE says anything
about YOU, I still have MY opinion. if NIm says something
about Barney, well, I have my own mind thank you very much.

If someone started dogging my trail, say I fell into anger,
then I hope I would turn to humor.
YOU have used that method your self, remember? Of course
you do.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 01:01:25 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Relax
Message:
Barney's not a plant, Jim.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 00:04:41 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: THEN DON'T DELETE POSTS
Message:
Brian,

If there is legal actions initiated by Joey or myself then it is your obligation not to destroy the evidence. From what I'm hearing from Joey and almost confirmed by you is that there is information alleging wrongdoing on my part.

While all of this binary data can be easily changed wherever it resides, if it is left as part of the Forum archives it is far more admissible as evidence in a court of law versus what I might save on my personal machine for the simple fact that I could alter it to say anything.

Please.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 04:07:04 (EDT)
From: Freely speaking minds
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: What the webmaster says
Message:
I am unwilling to block people for content, and I realize that you and I differ on that stance.

- VERY COOL -

We also DO NOT BLOCK just because someone has taken a personal shot at someone else - cheap or not. We don't publish people's IP addresses, or devulge what is confided to us in private.

- VERY COOL -

They will find a place where they can finally and freely speak their minds - however crazy their words might sound to anyone else.

That's what the webmaster has to say.

- VERY COOL -

I believe that you, (barney), are mistaken on some things that you believe, but you are still free to post here.

- VERY COOL -

We don't publish people's IP addresses, or devulge what is confided to us in private.

We don't publish people's IP addresses, or devulge what is confided to us in private.

We don't publish people's IP addresses, or devulge what is confided to us in private.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 15:34:29 (EDT)
From: bad bad barney
Email: None
To: Freely speaking minds
Subject: Snapped - My confession
Message:
Therefore, it must be true.

Ok, I was wrong about posting Joey's IP address even though I think I did not post the actual address and only said that he was in an internet cafe in Montreal.

I did it. It was a bad thing to do. I was wrong. I was bad, bad, bad, bad. I betrayed everyone here on the Forum. All of you were duped, betrayed by me!

(For the following please read the fine print at the bottom.)

Yes, I am evil. My mentor is Dr. Evil. I am the evil twin brother of Joey. Mom always liked Joey better than me. Joey was smarter, faster, stronger and sexier than me.

Yes, I am responsible for every unsolved kidnapping and murder in the United States. It's not Rafael Resendez-Ramirez the FBI is looking for - it's me!

It's me! All of it. All of it and more. Whatever Joey thinks I've done or will do or might do - Yes, I did it.

Fuck this crazy shit.

The webmaster does not think Joey is crazy in the least, but has suggested that I get into therapy.

This stuff is starting to really get to me. Like in the premie days of old, I am getting confused. I am really starting to believe some of this stuff.

Yes, the Forum is a healing place.

Thanks everybody who has had the decency and courage to defend me and putting yourselves at risk of being targeted or banned.

None of this is true.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 15:42:24 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: bad bad barney
Subject: Snapped - My confession
Message:
Bad Barney,

Could you drop me a quick e-mail so I could send you one?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 16:40:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: bad bad barney
Subject: Your confession
Message:
Dear Barney -
I don't think you are bad! Lighten up, man! I do think you made a mistake in using your powers to say where Joey was posting from, and I hope you're sincere in your apology. Although Joey has been pretty open about where he lives, there are a lot of people here (including yourself) who do NOT want anyone to know which city they are posting from. Please try and understand that we want those people to feel CERTAIN that they will not be outed in public.

Look, Brian and I have made plenty of mistakes on the forum. I, for example, have made the mistake (twice!) of stomping off in anger after an argument with Jim and proclaiming loudly I was thinking about quitting. This was wrong, and it upset some people. I do think it's best to apologize for these things so we can all move on and quit harping on the topic. Anyway, it has helped ME to aplogize for them!

I won't comment on anything in the 'small print' portion of your post, except to say that I really hope you don't believe any of it. I hope you'll call or e-mail me if you'd like to talk about some of these issues.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 17:29:08 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Barney
Subject: Ya {{{{WEbb}}} masters pls rd
Message:
Blistering Barnacles Barney
Here is the paradox.

I was surprised that you located Joey. Surprised/shocked/appalled to see that on the forum. But is it was me I probably would have done the same..
Ah but if I was {{{{exposed}}}} on the forum I would freak right out.
I expect you would too. So I can understand Joeys fierce reaction.

So how can I judge you?
You were a sterling webmaster and very professional. I was glad to see Katie and Brian get a break because it must be a steamed pea of a job.

Maybe Joey thinks you are Roger and has connected up the Chicken Ranch Scandal , a very serious matter, to your
innocent self.

As a part time forum freak, even I dont know if you are Drek and also didnt keep up with the wiplash that went through the Barney/Joey thread.

For what it is worth, Katie and Brian probably had each other to consult with when the war zone got hot.
It seems to me that this Forum , with major trauma bieng aired regualrly, it would work best if the job was shared so that two heads could reflect on a decision that requires the delicate touch. ESPECIALLY when it is the webmaster under attack. Of course two people wouldnt man the deck at the same time, but if kaka started to fly, then everthing would be suspended until a consultation between webmasters could take place. That would seem to be ethics or protocol or some other word of that sort.

(Yes yes, the one on duty would get to wear the shiny webmasters hat)..

Sort of a double check on important decisions.

I have spoken.
cp
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:09:23 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hello Katie! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:13:51 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hey Rob!
Message:
Were you just goofing when you said premies were requested to exit the forum? Do you wear a skirt sometimes? Do you shave your legs before donning it?
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:22:57 (EDT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Hey
Message:
Were you just goofing when you said premies were requested to exit the forum? Do you wear a skirt sometimes? Do you shave your legs before donning it?

No, I wasn't goofing, that was for real. For me it was an order, for others a 'strong suggestion'. Can't elaborate just yet, soon hopefully. Have a little soul-searching to do.

I never wear a skirt laddie, unless you're referring to my kilt, which I wear at official functions and clan meets. And no, that would not include girly bars - very impractical for lap dances, you know. No I don't shave my legs - helps to keep these damn mosquitoes off me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:01:26 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hey
Message:
Yo Rob,

You are a charmer! Thanks for the reply. I feel like the WWII guys when the Germans and the Allies would talk and toss cigarettes back and forth between battles...or was that WWI...
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 19:52:44 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: bad bad barney
Subject: Snapped - My confession
Message:
Barney,

Just to add my support. JF is behaving to all outside the argument in a very pecular way. I have just returned from a drink with three other London exes and none of us can understand what the argument is about, but it appears that JF is losing it.

That's just the opinion of four observers of the argument.

Look after yourself.

John.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:11:00 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Snapped - My confession
Message:
John,

Did you guys have fun? Who went?

Gerry the nosy
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 20:40:37 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Who went...
Message:
... AJW, Jethro, PutneySquatter, and myself. After half an hour about 50 cricket players came in. I had this thought that they were the premie thought police come to get us, but it appears I was wrong.

Anyway, it was fun to be normal with people who understood:-)

John.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:15:24 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Who went...
Message:
You guys are great...glad you had fun!
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 00:22:09 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This will keep you busy for a
Message:
while...

more search engines than you can shake a stick at!

Love,

Victoria

http://www.freeality.com in case the link didn't work.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:08:53 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: OMM
To: Victoria
Subject: TRY ASK.COM
Message:
'JEEVES' WILL ANSWER ANY NORMAL QUESTION. Try:
'is Maharaji really the Lord of the Universe?'

RT
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:24:28 (EDT)
From: Astroturf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharini Style
Message:
Step right up! Have we got a deal for you!

Maharini's Astrologer ?

THE GIFT OF THOUGHT

'The ability to think is GOD'S gift to you,
What you think about is your gift to yourself.'

--Guru Maharaji
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 16:25:42 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Astroturf
Subject: Maharini Style what?
Message:
Hi Astro, ( if I can call you that - I don't mean to be familiar)
What's this all about - Is this Deepack Chopra quoting GM?
I am afraid I couldn't delve deep into the site as it made me a bit queasy.
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:24:13 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: deepshit crapper
Message:
Deepshit IS really confused.
What a concept!
jeri noble is another victim of the eastern
genius to misunderstand and mispercieve life
and ramble on and on telling us how IT is.

Never one to let reality interfere with an
indian concept, deepshit shovels it out
by the ton.

We are always implied to be stupid and
uninformed if we dare to object or disagree
with the pronouncements of truth.

They never say 'we THINK' it might be like this.
It is always just them dispensing the 'truth'.

Is anyone going to contact that Irish paper
with some reasonable objections to thier
propaganda?
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:42:25 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie food sales
Message:
Hi y'all,
I am having a great day surfing the net. It's been a long time since I had the time or opportunity.
I just came across a story that reminded me to ask if anyone has been offered any of the food supplements that seem to be a part of the great pyramid type sales empire being built by Maharaji?
I know that has been mentioned on the forum but this is a new one to me.
Anyhow If you want to find salvation you will all be interested in buying these CRISPY SNACK CRACKERS written about in following article.....

Crispy cracker link
http://www.theonion.com/onion3201/crispycracker.html
Best wishes to you all
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 13:31:11 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Recipe for enlightenment
Message:
I liked that article, Seymour. My own recipe to alleviate the world's suffering and find a meaningful existance is peanut butter and honey sandwiches. Or if I'm peanut butterless - honey on toast.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:23:13 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Recipe for enlightenment
Message:
Hello Dave,
Sounds yummy, although it conjours up strange associations with me of the Millenium festival at Houston. All we seemed to get to eat was Peanut butter and 'jello'? sandwiches. It was the first time I'd had such haute cuisine. Not that it was horrible - just part of the whole premie experience that I'd rather forget, along with 'nectarel'(Orlando), spinach stew (Rome), and other strange concoctions created by a catering staff out of their heads on mind-altering meditation and devotion.
Seymour
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Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 17:14:32 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Veggie Lasagne
Message:
I remember Veggie lasangne all cooked in some of the world's first microwaves in Rome aka 1970 something. It was pretty good when you were starving.

Love,

Liz
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:20:31 (EDT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: A serious question
Message:
Seymour: I've noticed a number of grocery stores popping up around the valley. They have what appears to be the Rainbow Grocery logo, but the store name is Grocery Outlet with a 'Rainbow' for a logo. The color scheme (if my eyes don't deceive) appears to be the same, so I though I'd ask if anyone knows.
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Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 00:01:08 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: A serious question
Message:
>so I though I'd ask if anyone knows

Mike,
I know all the stuff your curious about.

stuff

CD
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:41:48 (EDT)
From: Rachel Geaves
Email: cadbury@compuserve.com
To: Anyone
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Dear All,

I am urgently trying to contact an old fiend who is a former premie who was known as Suzie Bai. I last heard of her in LA around the mid-80s. If anyone knows her, could you ask her to contact me at the above email address.
Many thanks

Rachel Geaves
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:21:38 (EDT)
From: Copta' Buzz
Email: None
To: Rachel Geaves
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Now why would anyone want to contact an old fiend? Personally, I try to avoid them.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:37:38 (EDT)
From: b fiendly
Email: None
To: Copta' Buzz
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Takes a fiend to know one.
So contact fiend fuzzbee morse in malibu.
elan vitels will know where to send your letter.
I will post his email later.
If it's still good.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 13:41:46 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: b fiendly
Subject: re: Fuzzbee
Message:
Did you say Fuzzbee? The guitarist? I used to live with him in a Denver ashram. Sweet guy. I've wondered what happened to him.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:28:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Fuzzbee's a jerk
Message:
Did you say Fuzzbee? The guitarist? I used to live with him in a Denver ashram. Sweet guy. I've wondered what happened to him.

He's shown up here many times acting like a complete asshole. Sorry you missed him.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 11:40:31 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuzzbee
Message:
Oh well. A guess a few decades or waving ghee-soaked cotton balls in front of some rich guy's picture could have deleterious effects on anyone.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 17:14:48 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Fuzzbee
Message:
HAHAHA yeah, I saw him in Long Beach 97 and he was er... not suffering from a lack of self esteem.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 19:17:47 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Fuzzbee
Message:
Jeez Louise. l997. That's twenty years since Fuzzbee and I ashramed together. Thanks for the update. 'It's too bad. It's too sad'...to quote a lyric from a classic blues song which Fuzzbee could have been playing if it were not for his Higher Purpose.

I stopped playing piano for one year in my life. The Ashram Year. It came back. I thought my technique would deteriorate, but instead, I could still play as well, but it took a half a year for the inspiration to come back.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 23:23:21 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Fuzzbee
Message:
Yup Gregg a year and a half sounds about right. I am about 19 months now and starting to find myself again. finally. God what a sick mess I have been. oh well. I am not surprised you found your music again. it's almost like we were in suspended animation.
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:09:25 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Fuzzbee
Message:
>blues song which Fuzzbee could have been playing

He was playing guitar and keyboards at that Long Beach event. There is a 2 hour video of it in which you see him performing quite a few times. His guitar on the Dylan song 'If not for You' and the 'Feel Like a King' song is quite good.

CD
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 09:53:37 (EDT)
From: PutneySquatter
Email: None
To: Copta' Buzz
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Now why would anyone want to avoid an old fiend? Personally, I think you have a problem. I mean what's the point hanging out here in the dark passing snide remarks?

Make a better effort than that mate...

Charlie
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 11:35:43 (EDT)
From: Copta' Buzz
Email: None
To: PutneySquatter
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Now why would anyone want to avoid an old fiend? Personally, I think you have a problem. I mean what's the point hanging out here in the dark passing snide remarks?

Make a better effort than that mate...

Charlie


Yo dude, lighten up. In case you missed it, it was a joke at the typo where this person wrote ''f-i-e-n-d'' instead of friend. A joke, get it? Sheesh, what a touchy grouch.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:47:38 (EDT)
From: PutneySquatter
Email: None
To: Copta' Buzz
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
Oops...

OK, I'm trying to lighten up now and I'll go get my reading glasses.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 13:37:20 (EDT)
From: Copta' Buzz
Email: None
To: PutneySquatter
Subject: re: Suzie Bai
Message:
No prob, Charlie! Thanks for the reply. Glad you're here!!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 15:05:43 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Copta' Buzz
Subject: Old Fiends
Message:
CB,

I was fooled as well. Just shows that we often see only what we want or expect to see.....

John the poor reader
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Date: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 18:54:32 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Rachel Geaves
Subject: Hi Rachel.
Message:
Hi Rachel,

If you're the same Rachel who lived in Streatham:

How ya' doin'? And what's Amiti up to?

Hope all is well with you both.

Anth (South London, long ago)

And if you're not, hi anyway.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 02:40:09 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Rachel.
Message:
Hi Anth,
I let Rachel use my account to try and contact Suzy Bai.
When I next speak to her, I'll tell her you were asking after her.
BTW Amiti is now an architect and is getting hitched later on this year.
Twas good seeing you all last night.

Jethro
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Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 04:24:10 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Hi Rachel.
Message:
Hi Jethro,

It was great to see you again the other night.

After you left JHB suggested we meet up again, in the Latvian Club, where he has organised the first draft Latvian beer in London. (I think).

We should try and drag Sir Dave along next time.

Anth (friend of Latvia).
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Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 06:51:16 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Latvian Beer
Message:
Anth,

Sory, I can't provide draft beer, only bottled, but the quality is such that I don't think anyone will object!

John the Latvian
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Date: Fri, Jul 02, 1999 at 07:25:01 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB &ANTH
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
I look forward to tasting the beer of my paternal grandparents.

Perhaps Sir dave and Nigel will come.

Jethro
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Date: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 15:00:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
Dear Jethro, JHB, Anth, Dave, Nigel and Charlie,
Well I tried to post this last night, it would have been my first post back and now it isn't. :(
I will tell you I wouldn't mind adding a little feminine energy to your little group. I knw Dave said something about getting me a plane ticket for administering his physical therapy. :) How's that coming Dave?
I don't know you of course Charlie but the rest of these guys are some of the forums best. Enjoy! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 15:57:46 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I'm chasing you round the forum tonight.

Maybe you could get a grant to do some research on us. Otherwise we could email you a bottle of Latvian beer.

Anth the friend of Latvia.
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 00:18:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
Dear Anth,
Can't you all get into it first, like the ship?
'Otherwise we could email you a bottle of Latvian beer.'

You asked how things are in the wilderness up above. Well we had company tonight, it is a holiday weekend here. It is so good to be with good friends. I think it is great that we are meeting each other as best we can.
I picked mulberries today and will be making jam in the next few days. I love the country. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 03:10:49 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
Hi Robyn,

We had a Mulberry tree in the garden when I lived in Putney. What a beautiful ancient tree. It made me think of the silk route. I guess you know silk worms feed on mulberries. I still think of that tree today.

Yum Mulberries!

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 07:14:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Latvian Relatives
Message:
Dear Liz,
Come on over for tea and toast when the jam is done! :)
It wasn't easy to get the recipie so I am pretty excited to try it. Just waiting for the heat to dye down first if I can.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 20:07:29 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Toast Rack (ot)
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I would love to come to tea. I love homemade jam. What kind are you making? I must make some soon.

I went to an antique fair today in the rain and got really muddy feet. I saw a toast rack that I meant to buy to remind me of Jolly Old England but I got distracted trying on rings and then forgot all about it.

It's a VERY rainy day but I think the sun's coming out. I should have bought that toast rack.

Much Love,

Liz
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Date: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 20:12:54 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Mullberries
Message:
I live in the country too. Isn't it great? Dah! of course you're making mulberry jam. Silly me!

Love,

Liz
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:16:56 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sweetly, safely, strongly
Message:
Greeting to all,
I have not been able to chip in for a long time but I saw the following article in Private Eye (an esteemed British satirical journal that used to be owned by Pete Cook.) and thought that you might enjoy it.
Apologies if it has been already posted.

In a feature on 'loony cults' last year, the Daily Mail ( a right wing national tabloid) had particular sport with the Guru Maharaji, the tubby teenager who first visited Britain in the early 70's and recruited thousands of disciples for his Divine Light Mission.
'Many followers gave all their spare money to the Divine Light organisation so it could spread the message of peace,' the Mail recalled,'refusing to believe they were merely subsidising their leader, who had a vast estate in California next door to Paul Getty, and a fleet of luxury cars.' Since then, it added, he had changed his name to Maharji and become 'even richer and fatter'.
Rather to the embarrassment of Associated Newspapers, it now transpires that the Mail's resident astrologer Jonathan Cainer has become a convert to this 'looney cult'. He and three other devotees recently created a website (www.enjoyinglife.org) 'for those who appreciate the teachings of Maharaji'
The Maharji himself has decscribed the arslikhan website as 'beautiful'. But then the guru has an eye for beautiful things: his newest toy is a $20m Lear 4 Jet, the latest in a long series of private planes.
Cainer says that he spent two years 'making appraisals' before committing himself to the guru 'It took me tow years of careful questioning before I felt ready to trust that he was on the level... It made me feel sweetly, safely, strongly at home . 'Maharaji also knows a thing or two about being 'strongly at home': he lives in a 21-room Malibu mansion, complete with swimming pool, sauna, massage room - and a nine-car garage to accommodate his Rolls-Royces
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:01:01 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Sweetly, safely, strongly
Message:
HA HA--great article, Seymour. I've been wondering how you were doing as it's been awhile since we've heard you. your posts always are VERY inspiring for me. Hope you are doing well and that the daily grind is not grinding YOU.
Love from
Helen
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:19:25 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Sweetly, safely, sorry oldhat
Message:
Thanks Helen,
Although I should have perhaps read some of the recent posts as Nigel has already posted this article.
At least my post brought it to your attention.
As for the daily grind - I am so ground down I am almost not here.
If only I could find a nice Guru who would give me Knowledge of how to live a peaceful and blissful life, I would surrender the reigns of this miserable life anyday - and give him all my money.
This would be a small price to pay for eternal bliss!
Or maybe not.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:53:30 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Ground down
Message:
Well I don't read every post due to time constraints, and wouldn't have seen that article if you hadn't posted it.
So sorry to hear you're so ground down. Hope you still have time to read and get together with friends (I remember you enjoy both). It's amazing how certain things can lift one out of the grind at least temporarily. It's so easy to completely lose perspective when work is dull and the wolf is howling at the door. Katie lent me a really good book called 'Your Money or Your Life' about how we virtually trade our life (in terms of time we devote to our jobs) for money. I highly recommend it.
I am trying to get out of the grind by starting my own freelance writing and editing business. I am scared about money but I find the 9 to 5 grind totally exhausting and I am NOT cut out for being a 'team player' (ha ha--that is what NOT to say at a job interview'I'm not a team player and I want total control'
Yesterday I went downtown to the folk life festival and danced like a maniac to this fabulous SOuth African band. The crowd was going wild, it was a pretty ecstatic experience. Today I have to clean my house and I am wondering where all that fabulousness went! And when I have to meet my Wednesday deadline on this project I am writing I will really be scowling! Thank God for those happy times to carry through the grinding times.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 12:44:06 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Seymour light
Message:
Seymour,
why dont you stop in on weekends.
You know, once a week you call some folks,
eat a dinner using the better china, and visit
us on the web.

Helen, wish you were in my area, I would have
joined your rhumba cha cha cha line.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:31:50 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: Seymour light
Message:
Hi KB,
Thanks for the response but like, man, your laying a heavy guilt trip on me, know what I mean? If only we were put on this earth to enjoy a good discussion on the net. But it doesn't pay the bills.
Seriously - I will try and pop in a bit more often though I sometimes feel I have said all I can and would rather go into denial of ever having been foolish enough to have become a premie in the first place.
I do miss the company, and it is nice to chat with like minded folk about this awesome, depressing, uplifting, terrifying, absurd life that we are all leading.
Does anyone know how to make a lot of money without selling your soul/time/creativity/scruples...etc.? - apart from becoming a Guru that is.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:29:06 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Seymour light
Message:
Sure, write the book on the lord.
All the stuff you need is in the archives.

What is your e mail and if my invention takes
off you can have the english market to manage.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 20:14:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: seymour
Subject: Wotcha Seymour!
Message:
Dear Seymour -
I was really glad to see you posting here again. I do understand the time and (especially in the UK) financial constraints you have, but it's great to hear from you.

I'm sorry the daily grind is so grinding - I can relate. Take care of yourself, and yours.

Love,
Katie
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 15:51:06 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Wotcha Seymour!
Message:
Nice to hear from you too, Katie. I am still working 8 days a week - at least that what it feels like - and have very little time to enjoy the forum discussions. One day however, when I win the lottery, I will be able to have more time to do the important things in life. The book that Helen mentions sounds interesting although I get the feeling that I already know about 'trading life/time for money'.
Thanks for the offer KB. I'll take the job - although I'm not sure what it is.
Helen, glad to hear you had a good time at the festival. It's true that those times make life less of a grind - but we need a lifestyle in which every day has a bit of magic, and we feel we are 'flourishing' as Aristotle used to say.
Mind you I'd better be careful, it was dreams like that lured me into wasting the best part of my life practising knowledge.
Cheers
Seymour
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:42:02 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: How many Jones have you seen?
Message:
Seymour,

Seeing your name reminds of the premie who used to be pretty high in the UK DLM, Nick Seymour-Jones. There was this story that M would ask him 'How many Jones have you seen?' and explode in laughter.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

John.
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Date: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 12:34:37 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: How many Jones have you seen?
Message:
As Jim would say, Maharaji used to hold up the flash cards telling people when and when not to laugh. Pretty sickening.

I'll bet Nick had a good load of fear in his head when M would tease him this way. Seems like the fear and laughter element would go together at festivals.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:40:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Joey, you've got to be fair
Message:
Go for it asshole, I have nothing to hide!!
Hey, barney, you're the one who's in hiding!


Joey,

I think you owe it to Barney to state your case against him and just basically get it out on the table. You say you have nothing to hide? Fine, let's hear it.

How is he a fraud or whatever you think? Come on, what are the specific allegations. Give him something concrete to respond to and something concrete for others do consider. Please.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:12:12 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Jim, I've got to tell you. You really know how to step forward with a voice of reason. I hope it makes an impression. And I hope that I didn't, somehow, fan the flames by what I just said. I feel like we're travelling with nitro glycerine on this issue. Sheesh!
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:35:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why?
Message:
Anyone know why they bother having so many EV sites? They just added a UK one. I mean, what's the point? This is the World Wide Web, isn't it? I mean, that's what I paid for. I wanted to get on the World Wide Web. This is it, isn't it? So why all the national sites with the same, wonderfully universal content? Couldn't have anything to do with search engines, could it?

Maybe we should have a milion ex sites. All with the same stuff of course. We could justify it by saying that, like the EV sites, we wanted to have a facility so that ex's wouldn't know how to contact each other locally assuming they wanted to.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:53:06 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why not, indeed
Message:
I'll get my world atlas out and get to work on that. In the meantime, here's a few to start with:

Maharaji's (unofficial) British Homepage Maharaji's (unofficial) American Homepage Maharaji's (unofficial) Canadian Homepage Maharaji's (unofficial) French Homepage Maharaji's (unofficial) Russian Homepage

The Chinese truth about Maharaji The African truth about Maharaji The Australian truth about Maharaji The Indian truth about Maharaji The Belgian truth about Maharaji
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 02:28:22 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Why not, indeed
Message:
Thanks, Sir Dave. That was like a good stiff drink seeing all those sites out there.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 19:57:09 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why?
Message:
How bout a sprinkling of ex sites with the first bar of twiiy ditty or some of RTs jems

When I first found this site I was looking for a Marjarine site to fructify my devotion. I wasnt trying to be an ex .

I almost didnt click onto the site because the word 'ex' seemed negative.
But if I had seen a humorous lyric like that, I would have read them all.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:17:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: There're those words again
Message:
Lord knows that Maharaji never put words into anyone's mouth. Never, in all my born days, did I ever think that a cult which I personally used to be belong to would be so funny. Imagine, turning bland, bureaucratic jargon into love slave pillow talk! (Now come on, Georgia, try this time. Think! Guess what my point is. Come on, you can do it):

Thuraisingham Ekambaram
Petaling Jaya, Malaysia

Warm feelings

It was in April I last saw you.

It warms me as I recollect the moments and remember the joy of going within.

Then blossoming into participation.

Experiencing the garden being tendered with your love and tender care.

Feelings within - it rains with gratitude.
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:09:13 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: poetry is beautiful
Message:
The light of a thousand suns blesses my brain
I think I'm in love once again

Your lotus feet I long to kiss
The feeling is just such blissful bliss

Satsang is really the company of truth
It's like a Butterfinger or a Baby Ruth

A poem is never as lovely as a tree
Someday Maharaj Ji will look at me.

Jai Sat Chit Anand
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 22:38:03 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: poetry is vacuous
Message:
HA HA
That was too creative to be a real premie poem, gregg.
Not enough buzzwords like Participation and gratitude
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Date: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 23:16:00 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Helen
Subject: It reminded me...
Message:
...of that one by Ogden Nash:

I think that I will never see
A billboard lovely as a tree
In fact, unless the billboards fall
I'll never see a tree at all..


Off-topic, maybe, but I thought I'd just share that moment of truth with you.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 02:31:58 (EDT)
From: selene off topic again!
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: It reminded me...
Message:
More insomnia nonsense:
We had a group of 'eco-raiders' here for a while who destroyed billboards. Edward Abbey lived here and wrote a book about them
'The Monkey Wrench Gang'
The only book of his I read the through was Desert Solitaire but anyway

just awake and babbling, the moon is getting full
course we don't believe in that stuff....
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 11:58:00 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel & Selene
Subject: It reminded me...
Message:
I love Ogden Nash, he is such a hoot.
Was Desert Solitaire any good, Selene. My brother in law is a real fan of Abbey.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 14:03:40 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: It reminded me...
Message:
Desert Solitaire is great, if you are into the desert.
Not meaning to be trite but that is what it is: His journal of being a park ranger one summer in Arches Nantional Monument.
It's great writing. Kind of captures the desert heat thing. Psychedelic. Which is how I am feeling. I hve become a vampire.
Also I think there is some very good background into the burying of, some canyon - I think Lake Powell is on top of it now. And how building that dam destroyed tons of ancient native artifacts,etc.

Abbey was a character. I waitressed at this trendy restaurant for a while when I was in school and he used to cme in, order a bottle of wine, by himself just drink. What is it about writers?
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 15:10:11 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: It reminded me...
Message:
Abbey's Monkey Wrench Gang was the inspiration for the eco group Earth First. They are very active in northern Calif. in trying to protect the last remaining stands of virgin redwoods. They are a good group IMHO. Sometimes they live in the tree canopies in order to protect them from being harvested. Loggers do not like them. Selene, I remember reading that Abbey was a quirky kinda guy.

When did you turn into a vampire? These last few years, my internal clock has changed and I now stay up later and get up later. I am 43.

Marianne
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 16:38:34 (EDT)
From: cp
Email: None
To: selene off topic again!
Subject: Shame on you Selene.
Message:
For even mentioning the Moon on this forum. You know very well that we all subscribe to the legend that there IS no moon and the phases in the sky have Zero to do with tides, menses, and have no effect on liqids in the human or the plants and even mentioning insomnia or effects on mmod is silly astrological nonsense.
Its not scientifically proven (in the journals that we read)
and referring to such is quasi religious nonsense.

By the way, the dog chewed my ephemeris, what sign is she in and is mercury retrograde?

:-)
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:11:59 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: cp and marianne
Subject: Shame on you Selene.
Message:
You girls!
Yes it is a damned shame I mentioned th full moon and our webmasters won't admit, I bet, that more posting happens on the waxing. but so what? It is in the logs.
Yes Marianne Abbey was an eccentric. Lovable grumpy drunk type.VERY good writer, i think.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 17:15:19 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: ps to Marianne
Message:
I turn into a vampire every June, in Arizona. Late night is the
only bearable time to more, exercise, feel like a human being
And it isn't even all that nice than. Just 80 instead of 105.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 22:42:43 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: ps to Marianne
Message:
Writers are very solitary, they sit and write in little cells with no light, and they tend to get depressed. My analysis anyway. They also tend to be driven. Anyway, I will pass on to my bro-in-law any Abbey stories you want to share. He's a devotee and he is a very solitary rugged guy himself , always going out into the wilderness

The temperature there would drive me absolutely batty, but here it's pretty bad too. TOday it was like hell, horrible. Selene, I thought of you yesterday when I was dancing my brains out to this SOuth African music at a festival. I actually got up there on this dance platform with about 30 other people and danced for like an hour and it was so blissful. The crowd was dancing, going wild and the band was so hot & giving it all to the crowd, it was like 100 degrees and these guys didn't quit, it was incredible. I usually am too shy to do stuff like that, it was a major breakthrough for me even if I did almost pass out from heat prostration.
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Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 01:27:36 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: dance
Message:
Wow. that is great Helen. I think dancing Is THE most healing
thing a person can do, especially to live music you like a lot.
I did that a few weeks ago, a band called 'The Molly's'
Traditional Irish stuff with a weird punk / wild twist. Harder edged than the Pogues. Hard to describe. Anyway. it was like a 4 hour aerobics class and so much fun!! I can relate. Good for you and me.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 09:10:59 (EDT)
From: KB
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg
Message:
Hi Gregg,
Just ask Lars if the 'essence' is self concious.
And ask who built the buddhist wheel of life.

He will have an answer to both.
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Date: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 10:24:26 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: KB
Subject: KB
Message:
KB -- to try to answer your question(s) in the posts below...

Essence could be said to be self-aware, I suppose, although that phrasing impies the duality of a knower and a known. Essence could also be said to be the ground of all being, that which is the utimate context, the reality from which all positions, tensions and selves are derived.

I understand the buddhist wheel of life to be a model of the universe, and especially of the universe as we perceive it, giving us a chance to understand life and cast off the concepts with which we imprison ourselves.

Part of your question seems to be the age-old theological one of 'Who created the creator?', or to rephrase it cosmologically, 'How did the Universe begin? How did something arise from nothing?'
There are mystical, mythological, and cosmological answers to these questions, but one could also say 'I don't know. I wasn't there,' and not be accused of willful ignorance...after all, each of us appears to come out of Mystery, live briefly, and go into Mystery at death...shouldn't that be the first puzzle to solve, the first gift to be opened?
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