Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 53 | |
From: Jun 16, 1999 |
To: Jul 4, 1999 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 21:33:12 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: MALIBU & ROB Message: Marcia began a thread below in which she doubted that Rob's post to the premies to get off the Forum was authentic. Rob has just responded with the post to Marcia: Call Malibu and speak to Cathy. Does anyone know who Cathy is? Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:19:12 (EDT)
From: Darsai Email: None To: Marianne Subject: MALIBU & ROB Message: Well there's a Kathie T who is listed as STD for Elan Vital in the Florida Corporate Records with an Augora Hills, California address. Elan Vital Kathie? To view for yourself: 1. Click on Link above 2. Select the Corporate/Trademark Button 3. Type in Elan Vital 4. Click on the Officers link at the bottom of page. Voila: The California Active Foreign Non Profit Officers of Elan Vital are Listed. You can also download the 'Document Image' by clicking on that link (under the This is not an official record) Select download - let's say Annual Report 1999 4-23-99 This will download the document then you can bring it up in 95/98 START > PROGRAMS > ACCESSORIES > IMAGING (if it's listed) Do a : File > Open Change the File Type to All eg *.* Voila someone with the name of Kathie appears as the signer for the Elan Vital California Foreign Non Profit Organization Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:27:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Darsai Subject: MALIBU & ROB Message: Hmmm. Darcy was my best friend one summer when I was about 5 years old at the beach at Oak Orchard, NY, in 1961, it would be. Nice choice of names, you...... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 08:51:33 (EDT)
From: RT Email: omm To: Darsai Subject: MALIBU & ROB detected Message: That was cool! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 04:15:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: One Kathy Message: is the Lard's assistant/secretary That is Kathy Gribish (not sure for spelling). Anybody having her phone # or e-mail? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 06:02:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Why calling? Message: I heard m's teaching has nothing to do with peoples' lives? How come he cares for people discussing here and there? Hummmmm.....maybe he's looking for friends to talk to? Do you think the BM is a bit jealous, and he'd like to have the kind of discussions we're having here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:45:04 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Why calling? Message: J-M: You seem to have hit upon the identity of the Malibu Kathy. Rob's post gives the stay away edict a bit more authenticity I think. I have absolutely no idea why M cares what we're saying about him. It has always been the cult's way to stifle dissent. This is something he can't control and I guess it bothers him. M ought to send us a post or two and join the debate. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:47:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Why calling? Message: maybe he does ..... who knows? I wouldn't be surprised. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 14:22:21 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Why calling? Message: Yeah, maybe he's Catweasel!!!!!!! Now there's a joke for the day. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 18:40:29 (EDT)
From: TD Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Another aspirant escapes! Message: I just received this e-mail from someone and thought that you'd appreciate it, 'cause it illustrates that despite everything else that goes on here on this crazy ole loveable forum (as indicated with some of the odd sicko posts down below), at the end of the day our conversations and endless desire to see the truth revealed continue to help aspirants and premies who are trying to break free from the cult. I've left out any personal bits to maintain the writer's anonymity..... ***** I am an ex aspirant. I never got as far as being a Premie. But today after a week of having read through ex-premie.org it finally hit me that I should not go through with this. I was listening to some music in a Maharaji inspired tape called drifting when I started to cry like i never have before. I just wanted to explain to someone how I felt. The longing in the music was real just like my longing is, but the master is a fake. So after 2 months of daily viewing of tapes and attending one M live event I felt that there would be no easy M shortcuts in my life. On the other hand, I also feel that I already have this knowledge M is enticing me to get. By making something hard to get he is increasing its perceived value, regardless of what it is. And what he has to offer is, as I read somewhere in the 'ex' site, Public Domain. I have been practicing taoist sitting meditation and Ttai Chi for years tho mostly on my own and sporadically lately. Now, a few hours into my decision not to persue M style knowledge I am commiting to renewed practice of what I already know and is good. From reading through your letter in ex-premie I wonder why you aand otherpremies I met recently including M himself call the four techniques 'knowledge'. They are just techniques not K. Knowledge you already have. M is right about that. What techniques you use to access this is not as important as doing it sincerelly with strong emotion from the heart and every day. Thank you for sharing your story. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 19:19:16 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: TD Subject: Another aspirant escapes! Message: Thank you for putting a difficult day on the Forum into perspective. The aspirant is to be congratulated. I'm glad s/he escaped the clutches of the cult and came face to face with him or herself. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 19:28:23 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: TD Subject: Neither the first nor the last Message: Hi, Mrs TD, me old antipodean fruitgum . Thanks for that. Yet another of the unseen defectors - the kind our regular premie posters don't get to see. Just from the number new exes we know about from their posts to the forum or others (premie or aspirant) who only send emails like this one to exes, I reckon there must be an awful lot more invisible defectors who simply quit without telling a soul. Tip of the iceberg thang. It would be very interesting if a new ex could smuggle oot the financial records showing the fluctuating (plummeting?) donations made from the English-speaking world over the past two years since ex-premie.org got started, don'tcha reckon? I can't imagine M issuing that 'exit the site' command to premies unless a growing disillusionment had started to hit him in the pocket. Up until now, remember, he was happy to just 'ignore his critics'. Perhaps willful ignorance is a luxury he can no longer afford. Hmm, what a strangely pleasing thought... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 19:34:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: TD Subject: Yay!!! Message: On the other hand, I also feel that I already have this knowledge M is enticing me to get. Trust that feeling. You are absolutely correct. Maharaji's not offering anything you don't have or aren't already aware of, your life and whatever you experience in it. I'm reminded of the song by America from years ago. I can't remember the name of it and I don't think I have the lyrics exactly right but it went something like this: Oz never did give the Tin Man anything that he didn't already have. Remember? The Tin Man wanted a heart. He already had one. Maharaji will try to make you think that, without him, you'd never know that you have a heart. Stay away from him. He's creepy and bad news. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:24:57 (EDT)
From: x Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Yay!!! Message: On the other hand, I also feel that I already have this knowledge M is enticing me to get. Trust that feeling. You are absolutely correct. Maharaji's not offering anything you don't have or aren't already aware of, your life and whatever you experience in it. I'm reminded of the song by America from years ago. I can't remember the name of it and I don't think I have the lyrics exactly right but it went something like this: Oz never did give the Tin Man anything that he didn't already have. Remember? The Tin Man wanted a heart. He already had one. Maharaji will try to make you think that, without him, you'd never know that you have a heart. Stay away from him. He's creepy and bad news. ++++++++++===========================+++++++++++++++++ ________________________----------______________________ Thank you for saying the above, you are someone that lifts the heart, and asks for nothing, but your heart to be heard. And also your vision and understanding for others to allow their heart to be heard by themselves. THANK YOU........Dear lover of OZ............... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:37:11 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: x & TD & Jerry Subject: Yay!!! Message: Yes Jerry is a good man who quietly yet strongly makes his points, and his points make a whole lotta sense too! I agree with your assessment, x!! x, what have you been up to lately? TD, that is a GREAT e-mail. That ex-ass (sorry, 'report' gave us that term and it is TOO rich) wanted to reach out and I'm glad he did. He (or she?) is right that it's much more valuable to stick with a spiritual practice that is already bearing fruit than to be enticed by something that is couched in a bunch of secrecy & bullshit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:56:13 (EDT)
From: x Email: no To: Helen Subject: Yay!!! Message: Yes Jerry is a good man who quietly yet strongly makes his points, and his points make a whole lotta sense too! I agree with your assessment, x!! x, what have you been up to lately? ______________Separator_____________________________________ First, thank you, now let me see where should I start, well lately I have been getting ready to set up a, multifaceted Domain/Web Site, such as, '????????????????.com', and try to make it a place that is what we feel, know, and believe, a Domain/Web Site that is helpful to searching beings, of what is most important to them yet at the same time is structured in such a way that one may find themselves in one section of the Site talking to others about the meaning of existence for a self-realized consciousness and then be a click away from a live chat with someone else who wants to talk with them about {???}, it is very complex yet at the same time very simple. 'Imagine', as in the song by John L., comes to me, hmmmm, imagine you could structure a communication paradigm that was geared to, “YOU”, but, inclusive of all people, but at your personal control, and at everyone else’s personal control also at the same time, hmmmm I could go on for eternity on this, but, I will stop for now, I again do thank you for agreeing with my assessment and for having it yourself. What was that old saying? ---- Jai Satchitananda, (not sure of spelling?)/ Truth is the consciousness of Bliss.......... The above Domain/Web Site would be a Cyberspace Maharaj Ji/a slap in the face to M and anyone else that purports to be an Avatar/Lord/Saint/Incarnation and so on of God, this Domain would be nothing more than a tool, that allows ones self to better experience this Life that we have, from the individuals perspective and it would be against a person such as {M} who claims a special sole authority on what is, as in “Knowledge”, and what is not, as in “Knowledge”, for himself and everyone else. Can you believe he, {M}, actually signed a Christmas card, Saint Ji Maharaj. I think about 100 of them or so he signed that way, he had one given to me by the way at his Malibu residence, but, that is another story Love ------------ {x} Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:47:41 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: TD Subject: Yay!!! Yippee and thanks Message: TD Your post sort of shocked me. In all my days on the forum, I had not seen it put quite like that.. We have the Knowledge. It is so simple. We dont need to earn M 's grace by giving money too him. THAT grace is our birthright and does not come from a 2 bit Guru. Just wanted to say I appreciate letting us know and also the way you expressed it. Sound like you are truly becoming in touch with yourself. If you were my own child I would be very proud of you. (Hope that doesnt sound too patronizing!) cp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:13:56 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: x Subject: Yay!!! Message: Sounds like a very interesting site, let me know when it's up and running . Love Helen I always think of Patti Labelle singing 'Me and My X' to a giant X on Sesame Street whenever I see your name here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 02:11:20 (EDT)
From: X Email: no To: Helen Subject: Yay!!! Message: I always think of Patti Labelle singing 'Me and My X' to a giant X on Sesame Street whenever I see your name here. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thank you for putting a smile upon me, I've never seen or heard Patti Labelle sing that song, {hmmmm Sesame Street?}, how many children do you have? Never mind, I sometimes get curious. . . . I do really appreciate your response. Yes, I will try to keep you as close to the project/event as you would like to be, much can not as of yet be made public. Yours, (X) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:13:58 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: X Subject: Yay!!! Message: I have one child who is 7, but I always have been a children's television watcher AND a big Patti Labelle fan!. Do keep me posted on your webpage Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 19:50:04 (EDT)
From: X Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yay!!! Message: Wonderful, and thank you for interest. X Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:42:22 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: TD Subject: Great letter Message: Hi TD, Thanks so much for sharing that letter - it was great. I really liked the perceptions expressed by the person who wrote it - very honest and also very intelligent. If you write back to this person, tell them thanks. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:23:12 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More on the Indian myth Message: Here is a copy of my e-mail conversation with 'Sitaram'. Sitaram: An old friend, R. H., emailed me a link to the ex-premie site. As the founder of the American organization, and the person who brought the kid to America, I found it all very curious. I sent off an email, making myself available. I did all the original satsang, speeches at functions, as well as the first initiations in America. I was assisted by an Indian 'mahatma.' I believe Saphalananda, an English chap, may have also been doing initiations in UK at that time. I was only briefly in the UK, where there was already schisms forming. I had been trying to avoid the Christianity-like approach of the Brits. Jean-Michel: What was this schism about? I remember I heard a few things about it in the 70s, but never quite understood the whole thing. Sitaram: Well we tried to do something with some spectacular energy that was very quickly shot down by people, Americans, with very little vision and consciousness (I can certainly name names), and as such I rejected the movement and encouraged those whom I brought in to do so as well. JM: I'm all ears (and hundreds of other persons also I guess) for details. S: There is a very curious 'secret history' of this movement. JM: ?????? S: I walked out despite the threats and enticements from the kid's mother, and a touch of violence from the kid's direction itself. JM: Really? We've heard rumors about other stories of that sort, but never had direct testimonies. Will you tell us exactly what happenned? Do you recall other stories of that sort? S: That must have been early 1972. It was her who sent me to America from an India I had never wanted to leave, in 1971. Having returned to India, the end of 1971, I have been there ever since, practising my sadhana, my austerities, and my research. I am in the Puri lineages of the ancient order of Adi Shankara, and teach traditionally the Sanatana Dharma. JM: I'm also very interested in your background. As you may have seen, we've discovered that Shri Hans (M's father) was in fact a disciple of Radhasoami. Shri Hans created a group on his own behalf, and set himself as his guru's heir in spite of his guru's chosen successor. How come that you've been attracted to m at that time, and that you left your own tradition? Is this a common thing in India? I was very interested in Indian traditions and philosophy in the beginning, I did study Hindi and sanskrit in French university for 1 year before meeting with m. S: The greatest tragedy of movements like that of DLM is that it has distracted so many fine curious minds away from the 'authentic' yogic and shamanic traditions, obscure as they may be. JM: M's and DLM's simplistic show was very attractive for me (and for quite some westerners). I guess you're one of the rare persons present at the very beginning of M's 'mission' to the west, still around and wanting to establish the truth about it. You're very likely aware of what we (old premies, and exes - I've received k in 1972) know about the very beginning of his 'work', and his 1st coming to the west with mahatama gurucharananand. I guess lots of persons would be interested in YOUR version of the facts and history. It took me so long to understand the sort of person Prempal Rawat really is, that any facts and witnessing is unvaluable to help other people out of this trap. I'm one of the persons who've believed everything that was said through the 'official' channels of DLM, the mahatmas and all the litterature of that time. I've reproduced a lot of it on my website. Siraram: I would be curious to know what is the myth of the origins in America. Can you tell it to me? I will be happy to comment. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:26:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: More on the Indian myth (2) Message: Jean-Michel: I'm not American (I live in France), and I'm not too familiar with what happened in the US and in UK in the very beginning. I've made a lot of research on EV & DLM's past, and this is what you can read on my website. The basic myth for me is was what's been conveyed by DLM in the early 70s. I guess this is what I've tried to reproduce on my website: - That booklet published in 1970 in India (Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj) - the most famous of m's early satsangs (as published in the DLM magazine - and obviously editedas there are different versions of them, specially the famous 'peace bomb' satsang) - the DLM version of Shri Hans Ji's successorship: it looks like his brother actually had been chosenas Shri Hans' heir, but some mahatmas had decided otherwise. This is unknown to most premies and I guess lots of people would be interested in details about this, specially if you've been there! - the fact that Shri Hans was the successor of his own guru, when his existence is not even mentioned by officials in Radhasoami. For the rest, I've always believed M was the Lord, as it's been his message for years. I know understand that was merely a belief that maybe makes some sense in the Indian culture. Likewise reg k, that's always been for me the unique way to be in touch with 'god' inside of me. Of course I've now understood this is also a matter of belief, and all the 'experience' I had in m's group is very much related to a group phenomenon. I still practice the 4 techniques (I heard there were more than 4 techniques in the beginning and that DLM simplified the whole package for westerners) at times, and whatever I can feel inside is still present, without m's 'grace'! Then there are the stories he told about his coming to the west: - the 1st westerners who got knowledge in India, and then invited him in UK and in the US. - And the 1st time he came, of course he never mentioned the people accompanying him, except for Gurucharananand who came and did some propagation before his coming. Your 'journey' with k & m would be much appreciated, as well as YOUR version of m's revised history! I've never heard anything about the schism, and even what happened with bbj and mataji is not known in details. S: A brief comment that I believe is somewhat central. You wrote: I've always believed m was the Lord, as it's been his message for years. I know understand that was merely a belief that maybe makes some sense in the Indian culture Actually, it makes little sense in Indian culture, which is polytheistic and therefore inclusive, respects multiplicity and variety, and is certainly non-apostlistic. Your belief makes a great deal of sense in Western Christian culture, and in fact what M's movement is all about is attaching an Indian vocabulary to a monotheistic messianic structure. So to add to the concept of exclusivity of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions manifested in expressions such as: 'the one true God', 'the one true path,' my God is better than your God,' 'The chosen people,' etc., now we also have shades of Christ and Muhammad in satgurus who become 'a synthesis of all faiths,' and the 'highest manifestation of the Divine in human history!' The quote, 'guru is greater than God' when taken totally OUT of the context of the Sanatan Dharma, and stealthily put into the context of montheism, is not only meaningless but serves to support a linear hierarchical thinking which is foreign to Indian culture. One of the great deceptions of M's movement is that it is indeed traditional Indian, which it is not! The quote, 'guru is greater than God' when taken totally OUT of the context of the Sanatan Dharma, and stealthily put into the context of montheism, is not only meaningless but serves to support a linear hierarchical thinking which is foreign to Indian culture. Jean-Michel: My understanding is that the Sikh gurus, and the Radhasoami/Sant Mat gurus say the same thing. I've read some of their scriptures and books, and I find their teaching (their words anyway) very similar to maharaji's! I would say they almost plagiarize each other. What's maybe very different is the attitude of the gurus or leaders of those groups towards their devotees. From what I've read in some studies, these groups Radhasoami/Sant Mat) have millions of followers in India these days. M looks very marginal compared to them. How do you place these groups in the religious Indian picture? Sects, cults? Or is there still something I don't understand? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:29:32 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: More on the Indian myth (3) Message: Sitaram: First let me say that I haven't read any of 'M's' literature in probably 28-29 years, and have probably never read Radhasoami's literature. So, as far as specifics go, I am definately out of my league. I will point out that M's movement, Radhasoami, and odern 'progressive' Sikh sects are all Panjabi, have very similar followings, and all arise out of the reform movements of the 19th century. Your question is a very important one, for it requires an understanding of the colonial discourse taking place in 19th century India. Hindu reform movements began in the early 19th century to combat the encroachment of Christianity, the conversions, and therefore the political inroads deep into Hindu (read Indian) society that were being made. The Muslims had never really threatened Indian society by urrowing inside. Their attack was strictly external. Many of the reformers were nationalists but apologists for what was described by the colonial masters as a brutal primitive religion, such as polytheism resulting in abominations like idol worship. Starting with Ram Mohan Roy in Calcutta in the 1820's, the Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj and other such movements were heavily influenced by Christianity (read monotheism). They attracted especially those 'elite' that had 'benefitted' from British education that emphasized a linear view of the world, where they saw both the theology of Christianity as a socio-politial organizing factor AND the decline of Christianity in Europe due to the rise of modern science, rationalism, and secularism. They started ransacking their own scriptures to find the One True God who could stand shoulder to shoulder with the God of Christianity. They eventually disowned the multiplicity of the gods, denounced image worship, and sought to surgically remove those elements of Hindu tradition that didn't fit the new model of the European world. It wasn't a terrible idea for the moment. It certainly stopped dead the conversions of the Indian elite, and forced the Christian missionaries to concentrate on the lowest rungs of Hindu society. But because this was rooted in a reaction to Christianity rather than in a resurgence of the Hindu spiritual vision, it not only failed in the end, but misfired. Instead of making their own weapon of defence, they borrowed from the armoury of their adversary. In this way, the structure of thinking was altered. With the agenda of winning converts, the concept of the One True God versus the many false gods, the concepts of exclusivity, linearity, unity, and humanism gradually replaced the traditional values intrinsic to the ancient 'Sanatan Dharma' such as inclusivity, non-linearity, multiplity, and a very insignificant place for man in an enormous universe. The now mono culture driven sects, with their exclusive priesthood hierarchy, placed all their emphasis on reaching the One Nirgun (God without qualities) through the One Sagun (God with qualties) as a human being, the Guru Maharaj. Since, there can't be multiples of Guru Maharaj, then all people can be unified and march together (to victory - whatever that means), lead by the One True God. Not very different from the approach of the People of the Book, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions. This requires missionary work, to 'spread the good news'. The traditional approach certainly does not denegrate the person and role of the guru in any way. It does not see him as a Single Path for the whole world any more than one sees one's father as everyone's father. It does not see his satsang as the universal satsang, any more than one sees his father's stories and advice applying to everyone. It does not see his 'rules' as applying to everyone. It does place the guru in the highest most exhaulted position as it does one's father. In my tradition, my Guru while afforded the highest, utmost respect and worship (again like one's father in the best of all possible worlds), is also thought of as a 'witness' guru, standing in for the originator of the tradition, the three headed Dattatreya of the Treta Yuga. A pipeline to another world, but not the ONLY pipeline. A small pipeline. Simple pipeline. One of countless streams flowing backwards from the ocean to the source. Unlike the reform sects, the Tradition does NOT recognize equality. It sees ALL things as unequal, and all of man's categories and rules as being impermanent and subject to violation. There is NO hierarchy in the Sanatan Dharma. The Sanatan Dharma is not conducive to political and social movements. The apparant anarchy of the tradition like nature makes it impossible to control. But mono-culture IS based on control. The result of all of this has been to give a certain identity to sections of Indian society, a certain self confidence, but the logic of what has been set in motion has been remorseless. The wheel turned full cycle in Panjab, where Neo-Sikhism forced the lives and the sayings of the (Sikh) Gurus into the framework of monotheism, borrowing heavily from Islam and Christianity. This succeeded because by this time a very large and vocal section of the Hindu intelligensia had become votaries of monotheism. This section applauded when the Akalis drove out the Brahmin priests from the Gurudwaras, throwing out the images of the Many, the false gods and goddesses who distracted worshippers from finding peace and solace in the One True God. To answer your question, yes, these are modern sects that have rejected the traditional thinking and values of the Sanatan Dharma, and have adopted a western structure even if their vocabulary has remained Indian. Many of their adherents come from this sort of civil servant type 'class' evolving into this sort of middle class type of thing, having completely rejected the caste system. This was also the focus of MacCauley in famous minutes from 1835, when he sought to create a 'class' of Indians, brown in colour, but British in intellect and taste, that would be agents and middlemen for colonial rule in India, and when India would attain its independence, would be the allies of Mother England in the new Indian nation. A huge sect, the Ramakrishna Mission, has recently gone to court seeking the court to declare them 'Non-Hindu!' Curious, no? Anyway, I hope that what I am saying is somewhat thought provoking. .................. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 06:02:37 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Interesting stuff Message: JM, and what he says makes absolutely sense. His description of the monoteistic borrowings from Christianity into neo-Sikhism and into the 19th century Hindu modernistic sects - Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, and the Ramakrishna Mission - is historically correct. (Quite interesting that the Ramakrishna Mission - which was founded by Vivekananda, by the way - now don't want to be defined as a Hindu sect; perhaps a reaction aganst the BJP and the new Hindu fundamentalism in India?) The Radhasoamis are really leaning heavily on Neo-Sikhism, but they aren't Sikhs by any standards, if anything, they are a Hindu sect (and a quite large one, too) who has been affected by Punjabi neo-Sikhism. Also, Sitaram admits that he is not very familiar with the Radhasoamis. I met many followers of the Radhasoamis in Hindu temples, all over India, and talked a lot with them. They're surely Hindus. I also like very much his point that, in his opinion, M's cult is really Christian - while to a Westerner, it appears as Hinduism. It all depends on the perspective, of course! He's absolutely right: the whole messianic idea of the omnipotent, omniscient incarnation of God is definitely of Christian origin, and has nothing to do with Hinduism at all. On the other hand, all the concepts parroted in M's cult are borrowed from Hinduism. But his Western followers have turned it into something completely else. Really, it's a kind of syncretism. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 09:14:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Happy Subject: Hey Happy Message: I'd really like to pursue this conversation with Sitaram. Do you have questions for him reg his last answer? I'd like to ask him if he thinks that what m's was professing, at least in the early days of DLM, was directly inherited from Shri Hans' teaching, and if he himself knew Shri Hans. And if there is a difference, which one. I'd like also to ask him that if he thinks that the Rawat's teaching has 'evolved', what did influence M in the 70s: - his US followers? - someone in particular? - other events? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 12:47:46 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hey Jean-Michel Message: JM, I think your information from Sitaram is very interesting indeed. He has hinted about some 'scandals' in the early days, that would be intersting to find out? Why don't you ask him as much as possible about the times before DLM turned to the West? I read some in the 'Indian Skeptic' which I think is about M (really old stuff). I wil ltry to find out via B. Premamand - the famous Indian Anti-Guru, expert on exposing gurus - to find out more. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 13:01:01 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Happy Subject: Indian perspective on M Message: Why don't you ask him as much as possible about the times before DLM turned to the West? That's what I id in the beginning, and it looks like he doesn't want to engage in that sort of conversation for the moment. I read some in the 'Indian Skeptic' which I think is about M (really old stuff). I will try to find out via B. Premamand - the famous Indian Anti-Guru, expert on exposing gurus - to find out more. I'm starting to realize how much this whole m's (and gurus) myth falls more and more in place with his testimony. Even though we've read lot of stuff, we don't have the perspective Indians have. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 19:54:20 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Indian perspective on M Message: J-M: Great work in following up on this information and this contact. The information is fascinating. I wish that there was some way to get this person to talk a bit more about the early days as there is always a question in my mind about authenticity, as the discussion the Forum has been embroiled in today well establishes. Thanks again. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 03:36:10 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Indian perspective on M Message: I am interested in the legal case between Mudlarky and his mother/brother. Did they divide up the globe? Does M have to pay them anything to stay out of the US? Do they have a compnay that pools all the resources? What about inheritance from the father and mother. Prem Nagar ashram was quite a property and so was the other site. Who did they go to? How often does M go back to India? Is it possible that he still has businesses there? I dont expect you to ask the Indan connection these things, but these are my questions. When he talks about scandal I wonder if he is alluding to this aspect. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 04:34:52 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: cp Subject: Indian scandals etc Message: Prem Nagar ashram was quite a property and so was the other site. Who did they go to? Prem Nagar is now bbj's, as you can see on my website. BBJ has 'program's there. The Delhi ashram (Punjabi Bagh) is the actual address of BBJ's (satpal) mission. How often does M go back to India? An average of twice a year, and he usually stays in the Mehrauli Ashram for a few weeks. Is it possible that he still has businesses there? Who knows? Indian DLM/DUO definitely runs quite some companies. When he talks about scandal I wonder if he is alluding to this aspect. I guess he was referring to Shri Hans successorship, when some premies got prempal on the throne whilst Mataji had decided otherwise. Maybe also Shri Hans' death (broke his cranium after slipping on a piece of soap), when it was said he died whilst meditating and entered maha-samadhi. That's a big Hindu scandal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 01:20:57 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Indian scandals etc Message: That's the first time I've heard how M's father died - slipped on a piece of soap. Reminded me of Thomas Merton electricuting himself in the shower. Made me think when M dies there will be an awful lot of lost sheep left behind. Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 03:04:27 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Liz Subject: Liz -Indian scandals etc Message: Liz if you do get any information from the layer, would you make it a new thread? Much apprecieated. The more pieces to the puzzle we have, the easier it is to see how I got lured into the trap. Hovering cp Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 01:12:06 (EDT)
From: Liz Email: None To: cp Subject: Indian perspective on M Message: I think I have met the lawyer on this case. I will try to track him down again and see what he can tell me. Love, Liz Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 10:02:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Indian perspective on M Message: What I found most interesting is the apparent role that England's colonization played in the development of monotheistic Hinduism. It's something I never thought of but it makes sense. The possibility that Maharaji and his like are actually a product of politics is a pretty revealing portrait. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 19:52:29 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Everyone Subject: Now it's time.... Message: ...to say goodbye, to all our company; M-I-C, K-E-Y, T-H-E-P-H-A-R-I-S-E-E!!! (you have to sing that last part really fast). The mover people are coming to put everything in boxes, including the trusty Performa 630 CD (an ancient, yet noble, computer) this week. We must be out of the apartment by June 30, and we leave the country on July 30. So, I’ll start the process of saying good-bye to the Forum. I found the forum two years ago, just before my ordination to the Deaconate. I thought that I was over all that M crap, but I was surprised by how much anger it stirred up. I had some interesting talks with Jim and Dave and Scott, and some arguments with Mili. The one time I got into the chat room on the old site, Dave and Scott were having a private conversation and I had to leave. I was never able to get in there again when anyone else was visiting; oh well! The longer I stayed on the Forum, the more people I met. I actually got to meet some in the real world: I had dinner and stimulating conversation with Katie, JW and TD, and I had a beer and played guitar with CD. I have some great e-mail correspondences with people on this site, and I consider you folks to be friends. I will not have access to the world wide web until I finally get to Panama at the end of August, but one of the first things I will do is get an internet account set-up. If I can find an internet cafe in San Jose, I will try to leave a quick post. I haven’t been contributing much lately as I have been hella busy (as my daughter says) and you all have been so prolific that it takes a long time to catch up on all the posts!! I am of two minds regarding the mass exodus of the premies; on one hand, I enjoy the quiet and lack of moronic discussions, but when there are no premies to pounce on, we tend to attack each other and I don’t really like that. So, good-bye, folks. I’ll be checking in this week until they pack-up my computer. I’d try to name all of you who have meant so much to me, but I might leave someone off the list, and then I would feel bad about omitting someone. Take care, and keep up the good fight! Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:12:50 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Mickey, All the best in Panama. Do you think I should visit and sell Latvian Beer? What do you think the market's like (I know it's not really your line!) I know we haven't conversed directly but have a great time. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:24:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: And may God truly be with you Mickey. I mean that. I'm sure many people will benefit from knowing you in Panama. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 18:33:08 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Mickey Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Mickey, Let me echo Sir Dave's sentiment. The people you meet in Panama are only going to be better for it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:34:08 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Dear Mickey, I wish you luck in your journey to Pannama and look forward to hearing of your safe arrival. I appreciate your humor (that lolly pop hair doo!), your sencerity and your 'fatherly' advice when I was distraught on the forum and in my personal life. Like I said before, growing up Catholic and in a violent household I don't much cotton religion but if I ever need a priest, you are my ONLY choice. I mean that in a totally complimentary way! :) Good luck to you and yours. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:43:59 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Hey Mickey, you're so fine, you're so fine, you blow my mind, Hey Mickey! Even though we haven't traded many posts, I always appreciate your input, especially when the premies start posting their misconceptions of Biblical history. You're the best! And wishing you all the best in Panama. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:54:33 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Mickey Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Hi, Thanks for reaching out to me on this forum. And most importantly, thanks for reminding me of 'Blessed are those who believe and have not seen'. Memphis Belle Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:11:13 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Mickey Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Mickey: I wondered if you were a cleric! We're across the bay from each other --- right now, anyway. What a trip you're about to take! Best of luck and good travelling to you and your family. There's an adventure ahead. Enjoy it. Please keep in touch with your Forum family, and, as others have requested, let us know that you and yours have safely reached your destination in Panama. I would bet that you find internet cafes along the journey, so pop in and give us an update. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 23:05:54 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Mickey Subject: Now it's time.... Message: You're a good man, Mickey. By your life, you have spoken well. You have taught me something. (I paraphrase from the Bible!) Thank you. See you when you can post again, enjoy your new life. Love Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 23:53:54 (EDT)
From: Runamok Email: djrayovac@aol.com To: M. the P. Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Be cool, M. the P., and be safe. When you're settled maybe we will get a chance to chat more (unlike busier times in these past months). Peace to you and yours, my friend! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:16:15 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Hi Mickey - I know I'm lucky to be one of the few forum people who has met you *in person*!!! I hope you, Mona, Anne, and Taz have a safe trip to Costa Rica and Panama. I'll look forward to hearing from you when you finally get to Panama - thanks for all you've done both ON and OFF the forum. Lots of love, Katie P.S. If you get a chance, e-mail me your new snail mail address in Panama when/if you know it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 01:27:47 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: Katie Subject: Now it's time.... Message: oodgay ucklay onay ouryay iptray! Iay ouldway ebay interayesteday in the oliticapay ituationsay ootay. Ogay ithway odGay. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 02:40:58 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Hasta la vista! Come back soon! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 04:01:19 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Have a great move. Message: I look forward to hearing from you in August. I hope the move is a happy one. Thanks for your e-mails and kindness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:01:30 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Have a great move. Message: Though I never got to know you, I always followed your posts. I was born a Christian myself, but left the church long ago. Anyway, you seem absolutely ok to me! Not the usual religious crap and hypocrisy. I share your experience of being surprised about how much repressed anger I found, when discovering the Forum. I certainly can relate to that. Have a great time! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 06:05:53 (EDT)
From: Bill Cooper Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time.... Message: Bye Mickey, I dont write much but I do lurk a lot! I've enjoyed reading your posts. Take care. Bill. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 08:56:31 (EDT)
From: RT Email: home To: M-I-C-K-E-WHY?... Subject: because we love you Message: H-O-U-S-E. Mickey House. Mickey House! We all would like to wave our friendship high! hi! hi! hi! Hi! So come along and sing satsong of ex-s family. MIC-KEY Why? because we luv you. H-O-U-S-E! best wishes , look both ways when crossing yourself, Enjoyed your communications! RT who has had moving experiences too. ...you think it's easy to be zany?? Jesus, I have a reputation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 06:11:10 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: RT Subject: LORDY now that was corny RT! Message: But funny . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 14:36:24 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Oh, my Guru Mariachi Message: MP: Have a safe journey. Please email as soon as you are able. I'll miss you faddah! Mike Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 17:54:49 (EDT)
From: Mary M Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Padre - Pray for Us Message: Love, Mary M Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 02:57:31 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mary M Subject: Go with God, my son Message: Always wanted to say that. Mickey, Can't wait to hear from you again in August. I'm sorry I haven't reciprocated yet, tape-wise. What's my excuse? (Come on, Laurie. Dammit. Think of something.) But if that's why you're leaving, Mickey, please... I'll send you a jam tape or something. Take care, bud. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 13:51:35 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Now it's time...for a rhyme Message: Bon voyage Mick' and family, what a brave adventurers you must be, going down South to Panama City, take care, have fun, and be free all the best from anthony. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 18:56:01 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Good Luck Michael Message: Yeah, it was great to meet in TRW, but it has also been great seeing your postings here on the Forum. Thanks for all your contributions, and all the best and have a wonderful time in Panama. Stay cool. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 15:37:41 (EDT)
From: Marcia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: I am a person with knowledge, who has been around, following Maharaji for a good 25 years. I have been reading this forum off and on for about a year, but this is the first time I have posted. I do not believe that there has been any agya to stay away from this website. I gather there is some rumor to that effect, but I don't believe it. One of the unfortunate things about both premies and ex-premies,is that they pick up rumors and run with them, without bothering to check the facts. I don't know who 'Rob' is, but I think he is misinformed and has no business announcing what Maharaji does or does not want. He is capable of doing that for himself. So, Rob, if you read this, keep your big trap shut! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:10:03 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Marcia Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: Dera Marcia, Thanks! I just wonder if you are a premie who is connected to a community? I appreaciate what you have said here but I do wonder if you would have heard if premies were not supposed to be here. Just checking. Certainly CD has been posting and he is a premie. I mean even if it was a 'directive' what would happen if a premie did post but thank you for speaking out. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 17:38:44 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Marcia Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: Hi Marcia. Thank you for your post. If you are interested in how we came to believe that Maharaji told the premies not to post here, you should read a thread in the archives (from last week) which starts with a post from Rob, and says PWK (to us, it means People w/knowledge) SANDRA, CAT, etc. Now, none of us are sure that this message to stay off the Forum came from Maharaji directly, and I think that's clear from the discussion we've been having about it. We also don't know really who Rob is and what authority he had to make such a pronouncement. What we can tell you is that 5 or 6 premies who had regularly been posting during this same time period have disappeared from the Forum completely, and Rob even cancelled an email account he had which he was using to correspond with a few ex's. It's a bit strange. If you have any concrete insight into this, or can contact a community coordinator to set us straight, we'd appreciate it. Or, if you are in a position to know definitively if we've been misled, we would like to know. Thank you, Marcia. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 17:58:03 (EDT)
From: Marcia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: I saw the post from 'Rob' that you mentioned. I know a lot of premies and the ones I have talked to know nothing about any direction regarding this forum. They have heard nothing about it and neither have I. I don't know where 'Rob' got his information, but I take it with a grain of salt. I wouldn't be so sure he wasn't just playing games, might not even be a premie, and the like. If Maharaji wants to let premies know that he doesn't want them doing this or that, he can say so, publicly at a program or via a video. He doesn't need someone like 'Rob' to speak for him. As for premies who have 'disappeared' from the forum, I can't say. I know I haven't 'disappeared.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 19:07:32 (EDT)
From: Satsang Sam Email: None To: Marcia Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: My question is: What if Maharaji did ask to leave the forum? I'm personally not sure, but I don't want to risk being disconected from the Master. He is so generous in giving us this wonderful gift. I don't know, next time I go to darshan will I be able to to look him in the eye and express my gratitude knowing full well that I've dissobeyed him? It's just to awful for me to consider. I shouldn't even be posting this. I'll just practice a bit now and experience his love and do some darshan in front of the beautiful picture I have of him in the hopes that he'll forgive me. Satsang Sam (Not to be confused with Yosemite Sam) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:12:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com To: Marcia Subject: Rumours abound Message: and the reason why is because Maharaji runs what is essentially a secret society where only limited information is available. In a more free and open organisation there is less need for speculation and rumour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:18:46 (EDT)
From: Observer Email: None To: Marcia Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: I don't suspect Maharaji gave any direction to stay away either but whatever the impetus, it's actually quite nice not to see premies wasting their time in a pissing match with the exes. By jousting with the exes for sport, you inadvertantly give their back-water forum relevancy, and premies unknowingly become foils for the exes to air their perception of history. You can't argue with them anyway so why bother. Besides, it's a hell of a lot more satisfying seeing the exes turn on themselves instead of premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:28:53 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: Observer Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: You can't argue with them anyway so why bother. Premies' inability to argue coherently has been clear for all to see here. Maybe you think you are capable of argument. You are welcome to try. Regarding history, we were there. We can't all have got it wrong can we? John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:45:50 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Observer Subject: Question before bedtime Message: Dear Observer, Over on my forum I once became be A Premie and argued with ex-prems and felt fairly confident about winning the argument. I was holding my own defending Maharaji etc but the trouble was, I had to lie through my teeth to answer the questions which ex-prems were fielding me. There's one sticking point that no premies are able to answer properly and that is regarding Maharaji's claims to be God in human form, to wit, the Lord. One of my favourite quotes about this is Maharaji saying with great passion; 'But God has manifested Himself and if He had manifested after one year it would have been too late, too late.' So how do premies reconcile themselves to this glaringly obvious contradiction of Maharaji being the Lord back in the seventies and then downgrading to a mere master in the nineties? It makes the whole thing look like a bunch of lies and a total farce. How anyone with a grain of honesty can still listen to the man, I fail to understand. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 21:38:30 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Observer Subject: Dear Observer Message: Dear Observer, Although there are a lot of arguments on this forum about the past (from what happened in the 1970's), I would like to mention my situation from the year 1997. I recieved Knowledge in the middle of that year. And Then, after only 6 months of knowledge, my heart sensed something strange from Maharaji. I came to this forum not to argue about the past but to come and express my heart about the what's wrong with Maharaji's Organization TODAY. I am young. I am new to Knowledge, I don't even know what agna (spelling?) means. I don't even know what darsharn means either. But what I do know is that something is not right in my heart when I follow the master Maharaji. The key moment that changed my heart is when Maharaji spoke the words, 'remember me, at your last breath...remember me.' (this was at the 1997 Long Beach event.) At that moment, my heart did a complete 360 degree turn. 'Woah! Hold on!' I thought to myself. 'Gosh, this sounds like he's implying that he will be there with me when I die.' 'But wait a minute, this means he is God?' I kept on watching the video and kept listening to him say 'Remeber me'...'Remember'...'Remember me at that last moment'... But how can Maharaji be God? Everyone around Maharaji treats him like he is God. But my heart recognized that he is not God. I believe that my heart is innocent and to be true. There is nothing in the past to taint it. Do you think he is God, dear Observer? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 21:54:56 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Excellent Post Message: Memphis: Your post was excellent and insightful. Good for you for putting it out there. Let's see what run around answer you get from the premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 21:56:07 (EDT)
From: Observer Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Dear Observer Message: Dear Belle Looks to me like the questions you had about how Maharaji can be God, etc., were generated in your head. I knew a guy who couldn't cross the street without asking his heart, and he ended up on a psych ward. He got the two the two places a bit mixed up. I would never ask my heart if Maharaji is God, like I would a owiji board. I would however ask, 'Does his words ring true'. If so, I would let them go deep. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:24:59 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Observer Subject: Dear Observer Message: No his words don't ring true to me. Anyway, you never answered my question. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:39:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Observer Subject: Dear Observer Message: The words don't ring true to me and they apparently don't to Memphis Belle either, by the simple text of her post. She wanted to know what you thought. You could do her the favor of a reply. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:23:32 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Observer Subject: Dear Observer Message: This was not a reaction in my head. How do I know this, Because My heart felt it. Yes, Observer, his words ring true, 'Life is a gift', 'One breath at a time, not one, not two, not three and not four, just one breath, one life.' 'That is the most wonderful thing'. These are all true to our hearts. But 'Remember me' does not ring true in my heart. With these words He is daring to speak on God's behalf, very daringly. When Maharaji states 'remember me at your last breath', my heart wanted to jump and feel that he is God and is going to be with me when I die! Isn't it true dear Observer, that you want Maharaji to be with you forever? Isn't that why you love Maharaji, Isn't it the most comforting feeling to know that you will always be with Maharaji. Well, that's the way I want you to feel about God. I know that life is a gift. You do too. You do not need anyone to remind you to remember because you are looking forward to God. Ask me how I know God is with me now? Because I listen to him with my heart. When I take my last breath I choose to look forward to God. What about you dear Observer, When you take your last breath will you remember Maharaji or look forward to God? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 18:32:55 (EDT)
From: An Observer Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Dear Observer Message: Belle: Marianne suggested I give you a reply, so I will. You said: 'Ask me how I know God is with me now? Because I listen to him with my heart.' Seems you already have God. A question therefore that puzzles me: If you already are in touch with God, what could you possibly lack that would have compelled you to search for something in Maharaji? After all, God by definition fulfills completely. My opinion about you is, because you already had an idea of God that you brought into Maharaji's classroom with you, his words didn't ring true. It turned out that you were committed to learning from him only so far as it didn't conflict with your own preconceived ideas - which you no doubt hold as sacred. That's ok Belle, you're not alone. It's the people who already 'know' about God who have the hardest time with Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 19:24:09 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: An Observer Subject: Dear Observer Message: Observer: While I do not agree with the contents of what you have said, I appreciate the fact that you did take the time and initiative to respond. Thank you. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 00:58:59 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dear Observer Message: Observer: M is saying now that you don't have to belive in god to be fulfilled in K. I saw a video in which he stated that atheists are cool with him. Pretty strange, Curly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:20:53 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: An Observer Subject: Thanks for your opinion Message: What compelled me to seek Maharaji? I was very sad at the loss of someone very close to me. I felt empty and chose not to listen to God, I chose the dark for 3 months. Then met a premie who encouraged me to listen to Maharaji. Everyone I met in the world of knowledge seemed so happy. I wanted to find out what the gift of knowledge was. Nobody told me right from the beginning that I would have a master, I was only told about life was a gift. That part I liked, it was later when the master and god was introduced... Now, as Maharaji would put it... I am lost.. Dear Observer, If you ever get lost, please notice that Maharaji will not be with you, But God will. God was with me when I recognized that Mahraji was implying that he was God. What did you think Maharaji was saying when he said, 'Remember Me.'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:37:26 (EDT)
From: Observer Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Thanks for your opinion Message: I have been lost many, many, many times my dear Belle -- the depths of which you have no idea. During those times God has always been with me too. But in those real difficult times when I haven't been able to see him, it's great to have a physical person remind me where I can look to find him again. And believe it or not Belle, Maharaji is a master at doing that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:30:43 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Observer Subject: Deeper yet Message: Dear Observer, I feel that you are reaching out to me. And I am trying to reach out to you. I understand that one needs to have guidance. I understand that 'wanting' to have a 'physical' presence. I have done a lot of 'wanting' for that 'physical' presence too, and I know Maharaji says it would be silly to go to a restaurant, sit down, look at the menu and think about having food and then the waiter would bring out what you ordered and then you would smell it and then get up and leave, M would say that would be silly, he would say what you are supposed to do is eat the food! Or if you're thirsty - you get a glass of water and drink it - you don't look at it or think about drinking it. These are physical needs of course. Now, the heart needs something too. But it doesn't need a bowl of spaghetti to make it fulfilled. Or water for that matter. (Of course you know that.) It needs something that can only come from God. I said above that I have been searching for that 'physical' presence too, using the 4 techniques, going to see Maharaji, - but I am finding out that these 'physical' connections are not fulfulling. I have found something though. I can not see it, hear it, feel it, or taste it. It is hard for me to explain in words. If, through Maharaji's physical presence and the 4 techniques, is the only way that you can feel our creator's love then go ahead, But I have found something deeper. Belle Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:24:23 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Observer Subject: Great post (Roger *best*?) Message: Looks to me like the questions you had about how Maharaji can be God, etc., were generated in your head. I knew a guy who couldn't cross the street without asking his heart, and he ended up on a psych ward. He got the two the two places a bit mixed up. I would never ask my heart if Maharaji is God, like I would a owiji board. I would however ask, 'Does his words ring true'. If so, I would let them go deep. Stick around, Ob. You are priceless! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:17:59 (EDT)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Observer Subject: Premies and the Forum Message: By jousting with the exes for sport, you inadvertantly give their back-water forum relevancy, and premies unknowingly become foils for the exes to air their perception of history. The thing is Ob (may I call you 'Ob?'), the forum is already relevant to those who want to be here - backwater or no backwater. And who the fuck are you to imply that any ex's 'perception of history' is no less valid than yours? You could help us all out here by telling us your no-doubt authentic, albeit whitewashed, version of history if it bothers you so much - but remember, we were there too. The only advantage of having premies posting to the site lies in their incapacity to look at the world other than through guru-tinted glasses. They routinely deny, obfuscate and evade whenever negative evidence about M is presented or a difficult question posed. (Hell, they can't even handle the easy questions. ) In this respect premies serve a useful purpose in illustrating for unbiased observers the stunted vision that arises from spending too long in a cult. I for one will miss their sad but well-meaning efforts. And to see them scuttling away now - regardless of whether the agya rumour is genuine or not - is testament to their willingless to surrender their free-will to the whims of the Hamster. Like I said - sad. Very sad. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 12:38:07 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Marcia Subject: Thanks, Marcia Message: Hi Marcia - Thanks for posting your feelings and experiences on the 'agya' issue. I have heard the same thing from another premie who I correspond with, and Orlando, who is another premie who used to post here, said the same thing. Rob seemed to be a fairly honest person to me, and I believe that he probably DID hear or was told something about staying away from this website. However, as you pointed out, just because Rob said that he heard something doesn't necessarily mean it's true for anyone but him. I have no strong feelings about premies either posting or not posting on this forum. In other words, I think people should do what they want to do in this regard. And I get pretty tired of unverifiable rumors too. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 21:14:59 (EDT)
From: Rob Email: None To: Marcia Subject: Premie's and the Forum Message: Call Malibu and speak to Cathy Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 23:13:37 (EDT)
From: Marcia Email: None To: Rob Subject: What? Message: What? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:13:00 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Rob Subject: Call to Malibu Message: Call Malibu and speak to Cathy You mean just call up the city of Malibu and ask for 'Cathy?' Okay. RIIIIIING! 'You have reached 'Malibu' if you are calling from a touchtone phone press '1' for our menu of options. In order to assure that you are a truly indoctrinated cult member, your call may be monitored to assure premie quality.' Beep. If you want to know how to send a donation to Maharaji press 1. If you want to purchase a video or other over-priced, useless merchandise through Visions, press 2. If you have questions about whether you should be on the internet, what you should do on the internet, or what Maharaji thinks (this week) about the internet, press 3 and 'Cathy' will assist you. If you want to donate money to Maharaji, press 4. If you would like to enhance your experience of the divine knowledge through the expression of gratitude by donating money to Maharaji, press 5. If you would like to listen to mind-numbing, boring, simplistic new-age elevator music composed by Maharaji, press 5 (cost is $5 per minute). If you would like to listen to Maharaji talk about THAT LOVE, press 6 ($5 per minute). If you would like to donate money to Maharaji, press 7. To end this call, press 8. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 07:53:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: JW Subject: Call to Malibu **Best of** Message: Jesus JW, That's just what we need here, some hysterical comiedic relief!!!! Excellent! I don't know if it would work in the best of without the background but it is excellent just the same. Knowing how you love politics Joe, I am coping a message a friend sent me today just for you: >and a pair from Dan Quayle... > >'We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a *part* of NATO. We >have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a *part* of Europe.' >--Vice President Dan Quayle > >'Public speaking is very easy.' >--Vice President Dan Quayle to reporters in 10/88 > >I can't wait for him to hit the campaign trail! And just tossing this one in for fun, this is Jessica completely! Already sent it on to her. >Today's quote was submitted by Amos... > >'Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.' > Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 08:58:19 (EDT)
From: KK Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Just interested if anyone has thought about the notion of a 'social conscience' as it relates to the oppressive and selfinvolved paradigm called a CULT. You see, I actually believe that it was amongst other things, a 'social conscience' that underpinned my interest in MJ. All the problems of the world that would be fixed by K and MJ's influence etc. My potential role as a proponent of change. Years later, one of the most liberating features of leaving the CULT was the freedom to revisit some compelling world/life issues, values and routine injustices and develop a position and response to them, as a thinking individual. I'm not talking about finding a new paradigm in which to act out some of these responses in a manner akin to the MJ CULT. This is possible as political groups, environmental organisations etc do depend on group consensus/participation and collective intent in order to advance their goals. I am talking about how one engages individually with the hard questions which were essentially left unanswered despite 15 years of satsang, service and meditation. You know, the issues of: diminishing access by more people to valuable resources continuing poverty of values, physical standards etc the breakdown of political systems/social organisations enduring inclinations to fight with arms reduced value upon human life children remaining the underclass We've all thought about them. What do we think about them NOW minus the CULT? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 09:23:46 (EDT)
From: JHB Email: None To: KK Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Good post. I saw a beggar this morning who was asking for any spare change. We have many of these in London now. When I first came the beggars were usually older alcoholic men and a few bag ladies who would ask for sixpence for a cup of tea. It was obvious that the money would be spent on some alcoholic drink, but strangely enough I didn't mind giving. Since the early eighties the situation changed. Thatcher's decision to remove welfare payments for 17 and 18 year olds forced many young people on to the streets. This seemed to created a new sub-culture of begging by young people, and now I don't give because I don't want to encourage that way of life. Anyway, I digress. After passing the beggar, I remembered that whenever I thought about giving to genuine charities that help people in need, I would tell myself that it was better giving the money to DLM/EV because M would remove the root cause of suffering. Since becoming an ex, I have of course cancelled my regular payments, but I am not yet contributing any money or time to any other cause. I feel like I'm in compassion limbo. John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 09:45:22 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: KK Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Great post, KK. We were naive when we were premies, thinking that self-fulfillment in the form of knowledge, and coming to know M, the LOTU, would answer the world's problems. Now I see that tackling even one of these issues takes critical analysis, and hiding our heads in the sand by meditating, is NOT the answer. For example, why are the gun lobbysists so strong?--if you analyze it critically, you see that they are very well-organized. So the anti-gun lobby needs to study and learn from them to organize their tactics. You mentioned children as an underclass. To address this problem is complicated, and again takes critical analysis. And to figure out HOW to help, one has to study the issue and figure out the way to be of most help: what politicians to vote for, look at the welfare reform issue (does it help or hurt families), look at programs that try to strengthen families, etc. In my own life, I have been able to help advocate for quality day care and do writing to improve day care & rasie the salaries of child care workers, . Also I hope that by helping on my PTA committee and w/ Girl Scouts to help parents and kids . Same with the environment and other problems: it takes Figuring out how to act on the local and national level. M doesn't encourage looking at problems from this angle. He implies that it's all a waste of time. In some ways I really do think he appeals to the most cynical selfish pessimisstic insular part of ourselves which says 'why even bother, nothing you do can really make a change anyway.' THis is the worst sort of cynicism. I look at an organization like Habitat for Humanity, or local conservation groups, and they help one family or one riverbed or one park at a time. They don't try to save the world. ANyway, great topic, KK. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 10:30:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: For example, why are the gun lobbysists so strong?--if you analyze it critically, you see that they are very well-organized. So the anti-gun lobby needs to study and learn from them to organize their tactics. Easy, Helen. You might get that gun totin', beer guzzlin' astrophysicist on your tracks if you keep talking like that (that's Mike for those of you who don't know). I hear he's a mean varmint. So you be careful now. As for a social conscience, I never had much of one. Like that old song by Ten Years After goes: I'd love to change the world but I don't know what to do, So I'll leave it up to you Still, I do work for a labor union. I feel I'm contributing something by doing that. I prefer it to working for a corporation. I do believe that decent paying jobs, with justice in the workplace is a basic need in any society. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:11:19 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Jerry, I didn't realize you worked for a labor union. What do you think of the 'Labor Party' that was formed a few years ago? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 15:28:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: JW Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: What do you think of the 'Labor Party' that was formed a few years ago? I really don't know much about it, JW. Politics bores me. I'm not a labor activist, myself. I just happen to work for a union in their computer services department. I imagine the Labor Party is labor's response to the Democratic Party's lackluster reponse to labor issues. I know the labor movement has lost a lot of power since the seventies and a lot of people have suffered because of it. It's a shame. The American workforce used to be quite a force to deal with. Hopefully, someday it will once again be. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 09:49:57 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: Social conscience Message: You see, I actually believe that it was amongst other things, a 'social conscience' that underpinned my interest in MJ. All the problems of the world that would be fixed by K and MJ's influence etc. My potential role as a proponent of change. This was definitely true for me. This was a very important impetus for me to get involved with M. He said that what he was about would provide for tangible improvements in the lives of people and how they relate to each other. 'Who will be feeding all the people,' DUO, etc. Our generation had grown up under the threat of nuclear war, began to see the consequences of environmental destruction, racial discrimination and wars that killed 10s of millions of people in this century, and we were exposed to how cruel and destructive our own countries, probably especially the USA, which we had been indoctrinated as children to believe were pure in motive and altruistic in nature, were to other peoples around the wold and which also lied to us about what they were doing. So, M comes along with a simple, nonpolitical, internal means to improve the world. It was very attractive to me and to many others. In retrospect, it was ridiculously simplistic and illogical, but at the time, especially because of its exotic eastern roots, it was very attractive. Years later, one of the most liberating features of leaving the CULT was the freedom to revisit some compelling world/life issues, values and routine injustices and develop a position and response to them, as a thinking individual Definitely. Among premies, and based on the stupid stuff M said about this, any involvement in social, economic or political issues was looked down upon. Maharaji explicitly made fun of people who 'wasted their time' being involved in such things. I specifically recall a public program in 1983 in Miami, at which M 'answered questions.' Really, he mostly sneered at and patronized people, but I remember the derision he layed on one woman who was interested in the anti-nuclear movement and wondered what he thought about it, since he had mentioned 'peace.' M said she was wasting her time. The premies, of course, picked up and amplified this. I always felt guilty about retaining any interest in these 'worldly' 'mind' things. I agree that environmental destruction and the increasingly unbalanced distribution of resources and wealth are the biggest concerns these days. Personally, I think the only way to address that is to curb the increasing corporate control of governments and economies around the world. Since M is certainly one of the beter off, however, living in his secure mansion compounds, I doubt he thinks much about these things. Indeed, flying around in a private jet is about as environmentally destructive as you can get. He certainly puts his own personal comfort, convenience and good time ahead of anything else. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 11:30:57 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: JW KK et al Subject: Saving the World Message: Hi JW and KK and al, JW reminded me of the period when it looked like Maharaji was encouraging 'good works'. There was DUO and the World Welfare Association, WWA, these were to be the tools with which the problems of the world would be sorted out. But what was really going on? I was part of a premie theatre group called PLA, we took plays around to children's homes and mental hospitals. We paid for everything ourselves and put on one or two performances a week for a couple of months or so. In my heart, I was doing all this as 'service to my Master'. I didn't really give a toss about the children or the mental patients. It was my opportunity to do some service. It also gave me a mental weapon when I was preaching about Maharaji, 'Look at all the good works we do.' These small projects were pushed in the publications of the time and the whole thing was used, not to raise funds to help the project, but as another 'hook' for people coming to receive knowledge. Because when the Lord is walking the planet, all other ventures become of secondary importance. He was, after all, going to 'Establish Peace on Earth' get lions to lay lambs etc. The real value of our plays was to put an acceptable front on Divine Light Mission. If we'd been sincere about doing something, we wouldn't have all quit when the next fad came along. We were using these unfortunate people to further our own nutty ends in a crazy little world. Anth the Revisionist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:00:39 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: AJW Subject: Saving the World Message: Because when the Lord is walking the planet, all other ventures become of secondary importance. He was, after all, going to 'Establish Peace on Earth' get lions to lay lambs etc. The real value of our plays was to put an acceptable front on Divine Light Mission. If we'd been sincere about doing something, we wouldn't have all quit when the next fad came along. PLA and WWA and the rest were abandoned because M saw them as consuming resources that could be going to HIM. I recall one coordinators meeting, after PLA and WWA had long been abandoned, when someone suggested bringing PLA back. He was practically sneered out of the room. Even the small, superficial, 'humanitarian' things were did as premies until about 1975 were completely gone by 1977, when M's 'I am god' and '100% total devotion and surrender' period was in full swing. By that point, there wasn't even a facade that anything was being done for the benefit of other humans. Another time, around 1979, some ashram premies in Miami wanted to start a 'theater ashram.' This was supported by Dennis Marciniak who was the president of DLM at the time. Anyhow, after one of Dennis' meetings with M it was abandoned and the premies were told to dump the project, to their dismay. M was in desperate need of money at the time for the 707 boondoggle and didn't want any waste of resources such as that. By the way, speaking of Kurt Andersen formerly of The New Yorker and later editor of New York Magazine, and now published author, Erica Andersen, Kurt's sister, was in charge of that project for it's limited life. I remember talking to Erica about how disappointed she was that the project was abandoned. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 14:05:47 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Saving the World Message: This is a wonderful thread. I've said many times that one of the main reasons I was drawn to M and DLM was because of the hook that it could change me and the world. My parents instilled a strong social conscience in me. When I lived in the Columbus ashram, and the social services aspect of DUO was being promoted, a few of us got involved in community organizations in order to respond to M's agya about this issue. I volunteered once a week at a crisis counselling phone line for a couple of months until people started forgetting to pick me up at the end of my shift around 10 pm. I was told to quit because it interfered with satsang, so I did. Now almost every day I deal with social issues because of my clients on death row. I deal with the end results of a society which has, for many years, failed to provide for the people who are most at risk: children. Children who are not properly fed, clothed, protected from violence, educated, housed, and are unloved grow up to be executed or imprisoned for the remainder of their lives. Instead of addressing these problems at their inception, we've just decided to discard a certain segment of society. Believe me, I've seen enough of this to know that there is no simple answer, and know that I do not have the answer to these incredibly complex social issues. I do know that one person meditating, or even a lot of people meditating, is not going to do the trick. On the other hand, I strongly suspect that if the millions of dollars that go into M's pocket every year were dedicated to some group of poor kids in south central LA for the next 10 years and the needs mentioned above were all met, the lives of those kids could be salvaged and changed. In the US at least, DLM has been a refuge for middle class white people. I left the cult because I knew I could make some small difference in my own community if I applied myself in some material way. I can and I have, no matter how emotionally difficult it has been. M's promises of social change were just another convenient chimera for the times. Today the chimera is to give $$$ to him, and he'll fix it. Talk about false profits.. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:24:04 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Saving the World Message: Dear Anth, KK and all, I am glad, once again, that when I was a premie we did good works and for me, at least, it wasn't to put DLM in a good lite but I think all in our group really were into helping, we went to a nursing home, VA hospital, weekly to visit and did meal on wheels. Since that time I have worked on personal 'cases' when they come into my life. Showing a child extra love and caring, trying to make them feel special when I can tell their parents don't or stealing a dog that I know is neglected, working to do what I can personally to help the earth. I don't have money to donate and struggle to make ends met but feel I am at least making a difference in some small way by doing what I see around me that needs to be done. Of course there is so much more that I could do in this regard but I just do it if it touches my awarness somehow, meaning I don't go out looking for it, it kind of comes to me. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:34:36 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: KK Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Hi KK, I agree with you, social conscience was a big draw into the cult. I couldn't wait to do real service as a premie, imagining all sorts of benificence. I don't know why I was surprised to find out that all they wanted me to do was wash windows and dust at the Kittredge Bldg...I remember going there as a sort of last resort, not finding really any meaningful service to do within the community...that's it, I'll go to IHQ! I remember the day they explained to me that service meant Service to Maharaji....hmmm. As for today, minus the cult, I mainly give when they come to my door. Which is quite often, I think we are on the list (go there, they always give at the door!)...but also I try to help (in my own small way), by teaching my children and extending my resources for the less fortunate children in the neighborhood. I live in a large city close to downtown and many of the children in the neighborhood are hungry and neglected...they come to our place like it is the neighborhood Boys and Girls Club. We have rules, of course, no stealing, no lying, no fighting, no cussing around the little kids, sharing, listening...I don't know. I felt really bad because there were 3 kids who were no longer allowed to play here due to repeatedly breaking the rules. A few months ago their mother was raped and murdered (they say she was walking the street to support her drug habit). Their dad was and still is in prison. Nobody knows what happened to the kids. I hope they are with a grandparent, or something, and not with Child Protective Services, as here in AZ we have a very bad track record with CPS...more deaths and injuries to children than any other state, my understanding. So I guess I took with me from Premiedom the idea that a difference can be made on an individual level, as I do not involve myself with groups other than to donate money or purchase fund-raising items. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 14:52:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Victoria & Helen Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: You two are contributing to little kids' lives in ways that will have significant salutary effects years down the road. I deeply admire what you are doing. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:48:14 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Marianne Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Thanks. I don't know how lasting any of it will be, but I know I've helped some folks to help themselves through my parent education efforts. And that does feel good. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:37:53 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Marianne & Helen Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Helen and Marianne, And I admire what the 2 of you are doing...I'm just here in my own little world, not always living up to the ideal. Sometimes I think it has a negative effect, such as the numerous occasions when some of the children wanted to move in with us and started calling us Mom and Dad. I would love to keep some of them, but of course I can't. They act out then, and I just try to be good to them, take them out to the park or the movies or to Tuchetti's for kids-eat-free night. Tell them to come back tomorrow. Tell them how much their parents would miss them and tell them I will listen if they want to talk. They almost never do...want to talk about it. They are very guarded about what they will reveal about their home lives. And with good reason. One little girl was forbidden by her alcoholic speed freak father to play here since someone ELSE in the neighborhood had called CPS on them and he thought it was us. Now that he knows it was not us, she plays here again. She is so beautiful and intelligent and creative, I just love this little girl and really missed her input to the group while she was gone. Now that she knows we were not the whistle-blowers, she is so relieved and happy to be back playing with the other kids here. We have only lived here 5 years, and so far the most obvious victory has been that one little boy who is white will now play with children who are not white...he has been around for 3 or 4 years and I never noticed it, but one day when we had a LOT of children in the back yard, he was urging the other white kids to leave 'Why do you want to play in MEXICO?' ...and then it all clicked, he only plays with the white kids! That's why he comes and goes and is not a regular here! Well this is the first year, he has come to realize that the kids are just kids, whites, hispanics, native americans...we all play together here in our little multi-cultural back yard. A drop in the bucket, you know. I admire what the two of you are doing, it seems to me that I am in the microcosm and you two are in the big bad world, making more lasting, more meaningful changes. I don't know, but thanks, I do what I can when I can. I am just afraid of organized groups in general...know what I mean? I think the last group I belonged to was Divine Light Mission. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 20:53:24 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Victoria Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Dear Victoria, I think you are doing a great thing for the kids you come in contact with. I have heard it said more than once that if just one adult really connects with a troubled kid that it can make all the difference in the world, really give that kid something to keep and that it can really save a kids life, in the sence of getting in trouble or making something of themselves. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 21:28:33 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Dear Robyn, I think YOU are great and I really appreciate all the support you've given me here on the forum and in e-mails. I think sometimes I am one of those who stumbled across your doorstep in need of a friend and you were there. I've had some difficulty navigating the forum and trying to stay true to whatever it is inside me that doesn't just go along with the group. This forum gets complicated sometimes and I really like it much better without the premies. When the premies were here, I sometimes felt like I was in the middle of a good-cop-bad-cop scenario which wasn't my intention...or was it? Anyway, the gibberish and consequent insulting expletives are at an all-time low. It was so hard to jump into a thread and really communicate, do you know what I mean? Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:42:20 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Victoria Subject: 'Social conscience' Message: Dear Victoria, God that was so nice of you to say Victoria, thank you. I usually just stayed out of premie/ex discussions so I really don't know but I can imagine so I hardly notice they are, for the most part, absent and then of course I thought Sureal Simon was a premie! :) I was just thinking if we were to have a yard full of kids, they would have had to come from a probable radius of 10milies! :) Probably an exaggerating. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:10:37 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Victoria and Helen Subject: What Robyn said... Message: ...is definitely true. Kids who survive traumatic childhoods often attribute that to an adult who cared about them and took an interest in them. Sometimes this is someone in their family (like a grandparent or aunt/uncle) but oftentimes it's a neighbor or teacher. I've heard a lot of people talk about the effect people like you, Victoria and Helen, had in their lives when they were kids. So, thanks! Love from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 09:54:48 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Katie Message: Hey Katie, Still working on my Journey, will send soon, hoping to see it on the forum on my so-called spiritual birthday, 7/3 (that's 3 July for youse exes in the UK). Thanks for your support. Love Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 18:26:31 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: What Robyn said... Message: Thanks Katie, I have read that, too, in studies about resilient children. Some resilient children are just born that way, with a very focused predisposition to survive horrendous circumstances. Others had *just* one adult who was crazy about them who made them feel approved of and accepted, who encouraged them. That really blows me away to think that people can make that kind of difference in a child's life. Of course, a lot of kids fall through the cracks, because there is too much stacked against them. But a lot DO make it even with horrendous circumstances becsue of the love of just one person. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:00:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Victoria Subject: You're a saint Message: Victoria: Because of what you are doing, some of those kids might not end up in prison, or as the client of me or my public defender husband. You're touching kids where it counts. That is the big, bad world. Hugs to you! Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:10:56 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Marianne Subject: NOT a saint Message: Oh Man, Marianne, I'll take all the hugs I can get, but please, no sainthood! That is one of the major reasons I had for LEAVING M and K and for NOT joining the ashram. Once I realized all the stuff inside me that really was ill-informed, though well-intentioned, I knew that the fulfillment of my desires through m and k was not the way to go, you know, I surrendered to m and then I surrendered my will and then I just surrendered to my own humanity. Not perfect, you know, and I'm leaving all the really hard stuff to the big guys (and gals). Love you and respect what you are doing, thanks for the hugs, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:13:29 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Victoria Subject: NOT a saint Message: Ok, none of us are saints, but will you settle for being special, to me and others here? We are proud of what you are doing, so you will HAVE to settle for that missy! Love, Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 22:19:09 (EDT)
From: Missy Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks (nt) Message: feels good. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 18:20:36 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: Victoria Subject: Hey Victoria Message: I finally have time to hang out here a bit. I also wanted to tell you that helping the kids in your neighborhood is great. We live in a neighborhood with some neglected kids. My husband and I are constantly dealing with this and trying to be kind to these kids even though their parents are shits. I do think that like Marianne said, you can help change a kid's life by being a caring presence in their life. I know when I was really struggling as a teenager , my high school teachers really saved my life by reaching out to me. I still keep in touch with one of them. He impacted my life and probably saved me from suicide, serious drug abuse, or some weird fate like that. I think it's good that you set limits for the kids in your neighborhood. You are modeling something when you do that they they may not get at home. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:18:29 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Helen Subject: Thanks Helen, (nt) Message: Thanks Helen Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 05:50:30 (EDT)
From: chr Email: None To: Everyone Subject: hi Message: Hi all, it's been months since I posted here. I kind of lost interest- M's really very boring. However I noticed that there's been some controversy regarding some premies who've been posting here. Premies are being deluded and M is playing a slimy and two-faced game with his claim about 'evolving'. Sure, some of the externals have changed, but the core of the matter is that we trusted Maharaji more than we trusted ourselves. Whether M is called lord, Master, teacher, satguru or whatever, is neither here nor there- the basic tenet that he is superior, knows us better than we know ourselves and can run our lives better than we can, has not changed. If we trust him more than we trust ourselves, then we are cancelling any real possibility of self-knowledge and growth. A couple of years ago I went to visit some old premie friends of mine who were doing M's laundry while he was in town. As usual a whole apartment had been set aside for this daunting task. What did I find? A bunch of middle aged women aahing and oohing, gasping and drooling over M's socks and shirts-chatting like a bunch of deranged teenyboppers about their glimpses of him and how kind he was to let them serve him in this way. I realised nothing had changed and wondered if that was how I used to be- it all sounded so empty and silly and one-dimensional. Take care everyone, Chris. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 11:34:26 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: chr Subject: hi Message: Hi Chris, Welcome back to electro-therapy world. As usual, the virtual fists have been flying and an enjoyable time is being had by all. Anth the Virtual Voyeur. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 03:33:23 (EDT)
From: Request Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: I have been asked to give a small group of aspirants something on paper to summarize what the exs are saying about M and knowledge. Hearing it from me is only goes so far. They are aware that there is a group of exs with something to say and want to know what all the fuss is about. They do not have acess to the web, so it is an not an agyagate related request. More like after video night expresso talk. Any suggestions? Thanks, Report Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:25:47 (EDT)
From: Jethro Email: None To: Request Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: Suggest to them that they visit an internet cafe. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:29:42 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Request Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: If you have a printer you can find the pages you want and print them out. I don't have a printer myself so I cannot tell you how it is going to look. You could also select all the pages that would be appropriate and then use the mouse to Select text and copy it to the clipboard and then paste it into a a document. Once in that document you could organize and pretty it up and then print. Good luck! And don't forget Jean-Michel's excellent site for quotes and historical background. And there is Sir D's the Truth About Maharaji Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:52:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Request Subject: Write a book! Message: I guess one could write a book with all the stuff that's now on this website and mine. Why not write an hypertext (or html) document, available on disk or CD, and distribute it for free, or 1 $ ? Maybe an introduction to it could be printed on paper and distributed? Who's going to help doing this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:57:57 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Write a book! Message: Me! Where do we start? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 05:01:16 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gail Subject: Write a book! Message: We could do that together .... anybody joining our little cult? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:24:59 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Write a book! Message: I can join you in this project. By the way, I found an old 'Guru Puja Songbook' from 1974... Is it of interest? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:35:03 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Happy Subject: Write a book! Message: Could you give the song's list? I guess some of them are worth adding to my 'devotional songs' page! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:57:23 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Song's list Message: Sure - I'll photocopy the whole thing and send it to you. Or, alternatively, I can send you the whole book - it has some nice photos, too, and notes, and lyrics - if you want to scan it. (But I'd like to get it back, of course.) Some of the songs are just unbelievable! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:07:09 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Happy Subject: Write a book! Message: Hi Happy, If it's got my name on the cover, and a roach sized piece or card missing from the back, it's mine. Can I have it back please? Anth the Divine Minstrel. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 05:03:30 (EDT)
From: Happy Email: None To: AJW Subject: no name on the cover Message: Sorry Anth! The wrong copy... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 11:39:48 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Gail Subject: Where to start? Message: Hi Gail, How about, 'Once upon a time...' or, 'Are you sitting comfortably? (pause for reply)Then I'll begin' Anth the trying to reach the archives but getting waylaid by each thread. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:56:52 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Request Subject: What's the fuss? Message: The trouble is that premies and aspirants are being betrayed; they are misled into believing there is a lot more to Maharaji and Knowledge then there is. In addition to a few meditation techniques, people are brainwashed into making a long-term commitment to nothing. This commitment requires one hour of meditation a day, weekly viewings of videos, satellite feeds, travelling to see Maharaji, giving labour and expertise for free and finally, making donations. If the brainwash works correctly, as it has for so many, the individual cannot walk away. (S)he becomes trapped into this lifestyle and belief system. The individual begins to direct their lives in pursuit of the cult's goals as opposed to personal goals. Maharaji used to be the Lord of the Universe. Now he is the perfect master, but the old timers manage to subtly imply his divinity to perceptive hopefuls. MJ creates a need in the individual and then enslaves the participant into bliss conditioning and fear of noncompliance. Recently, premies were told that if they continued to post here, they would be banned from going to future EV events. Maharaji is a control freak. He is still acting the role of the Lord. After all, would you, as an adult, refuse to read or post to an internet site because some meditation teacher told you not to? Maharaji's indoctrination causes the individual to surrender his/her free will. Many people's lives have been ruined, including mine. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 07:11:50 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gail Subject: What's the fuss? Message: Dear Gail, Great post, I can't believe, yet I see it is true that premies are just asking how high when M says jump! It is amazing that they would not post to an internet site because someone who doesn't know them from Adam said so. I've mentioned this before but when I was told to move from a place I chose that was the end of my major involvement, I can't imagine following this 'lesser' order. No free will, exactly! Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:35:04 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gail Subject: An honour bestowed to thee Message: Gail; you've put that very well indeed and it's good enough to put on my web site, if that's OK. You'll be getting the official honour on my Royal headed paper with the Royal Seal on it, despatched forthwith by a messenger on a fast horse. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:00:04 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I'd be honoured, but could you Message: fix this mistake first, please Sir David: The individual begins to direct their lives in pursuit of the cult's goals as opposed to personal goals. To: Individuals begin to direct their lives Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 01:06:35 (EDT)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Gail Subject: Wonderful News, This Book! Message: Wow! I think you would write the best book about this whole Maharaji thing. You know, the day before I 'received knowledge', I was wandering around in a book store, and a bunch of books with the title 'CULTS' glared at me. I wish I would have picked one up then. I bet I would of if one of them had said 'Maharaji and his CULT.' We need to help others. I would love to help, just let me know. Maybe, after the book is is print, we could distribute them in places in or around where aspirants stay at convention centers. Memphis Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 03:58:53 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Wonderful News, This Book! Message: Hi there! I really like it when you post. I always think back to last year when I first found this site. You and I were sharing our doubts with the rest of the crew. It would be wonderful to write a book collectively. If it made any money, we could use the proceeds to help others who are leaving a cult and need financial assistance for therapy (some countries) or even to resettle. On the Children of God site, some of these folks are really desparate. I also fancy a documentary entitled, Me and Maharaji. In addition to the old memorobilia and footage of Maharaji, we could each tape our experiences and then have a company pick up the option and the celluloid. There were a couple of people who posted about 1.5 months ago about making a documentary on MJ. I am not sure whether or not they were sincere or premies doing their duty. I think a Maharaji slant would be useful for many individuals who are into some form of this Hindu trip. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 04:59:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Gail Subject: Will correct mistake (NT) Message: There's nothing here but this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 05:51:19 (EDT)
From: First responce to request Email: No thank you To: Request Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: YOU SAID: I have been asked to give a small group of aspirants something on paper to summarize what the exs are saying about M and knowledge. Hearing it from me is only goes so far. They are aware that there is a group of exs with something to say and want to know what all the fuss is about. They do not have acess to the web, so it is an not an agyagate related request. More like after video night expresso talk. Any suggestions? Thanks, Report I SAY: Report: M; also known as, Sat Guru Maharaj Ji/Guru Maharaj Ji/Saint Ji Maharaj/Maharaji/, just to mention a few names, that he has or does use, has had and still has an organization that does what ever is his pleasure, this has and still does included putting forth a message of the individuals need to quest, that is at least some individuals need to quest for, 'Knowledge'/Consciousness /Self/GOD/Guru, well that last one Guru, or Lord or Maharaji or Jim Jones or whom ever, is part of the problem, you see how this is starting to unfold?,,, so many people want to quest that so called Love, Meaning of life, GOD, to raise their consciousness to that most precious understanding of life, or just receive, 'Knowledge', BUT, the problem is the so called GIFT of, 'Knowledge', is like the gift of food that is given to monkeys to catch them and then to do with them as is the pleasure of the giver of the GIFT, I refer to the classic story of monkeys getting caught by putting their hand in a small mouthed jar of food, but, can not keep the food gift unless they do not let go, of the GIFT, because, well you see boys and girls, that is part of the tragic and horrific truth, which is that Guru Maharaj Ji makes him self part of this Knowledge thing, you do not have it if you do not have him, so he makes known. He Guru Maharaj Ji is the one and only Authority on, 'Knowledge', {His Mom and oldest bother do not agree with him.}, makes you question things I hope. In this life you are you, and with or with out this thing called Knowledge, you are not you if you follow something or someone else at the loss of your self, and I do not mean that in a philosophical sense, but in the most real sense. Please, no strings….. Much more could be said, but I hope this idea, of some one or Lord GOD or GOD, saying do not look at that Web Site, or Meditate like such and such, has no right to direct a way of behaving for anyone in the name of whatever, because they hold them selves out as the single and sole authority on this Knowledge thing, we/you, are a Sovereign being, or we are but, puppets, your choice, for now. Can you imagine a future where we are made to think and feel as the State tells us to or are medically fixed…………………? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:06:46 (EDT)
From: First responce to request Email: No thank you To: First responce to request Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: Hmmmm? I took so long putting that together that, { 6 }, posts are made befor I hit the old Enter button, and post, I was not the first responce to the request. I had to update, thank you.................! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:14:48 (EDT)
From: Request Email: None To: thread Subject: Thanks Jeth,barn, JM, Gail,fst Message: It was a bit daunting to get the request,and it felt like a hell of a responsibility, but your suggestions and texts are a good place to start. I have printed the posts on the thread and will suggest they take their expresso at the internet cafe next time. Making a CD is beyond my ability, but that would be easy to distribute. Ill take 25. This whole situation brings home to me that though I am a certified ex, it is a different thing all together to have wide eyed aspirants ask me what the skinny is after all these years. I was sort of tonge tied! thanks again Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 06:21:24 (EDT)
From: First responce to request Email: No thank you. To: Request Subject: Thanks Jeth,barn, JM, Gail,fst Message: Your welcome. And thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 14:23:38 (EDT)
From: g's mom Email: None To: Request Subject: Thanks Jeth,barn, JM, Gail,fst Message: I would print out as much of the history of DLM/EV as I could, I would print out the Breaking Free though I think it perhaps is not as forceful as I would be about this being a real cult. Hmmm, maybe even Jims list of premie justifications? Pictures of the Guru in the heavy devotional period. Print a few out. A picture is worth a thousand words. Then say...why is he trying to pretend this never happened? I would also stress that this is not some net conspiracy. I get the sense the the guru's people try to make it sound as if the group who post here are a cult unto themselves. Or some sort of group of devils, evil spirits, judases who try to seduce poor premies to the dark side. Stress that it is simply information, on the web, from individuals who are brave enough and care enough to want to help others find the truth about rawat and his mission. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 15:50:33 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: g's mom Subject: links to pics and apologia Message: Here's the link to the Mahajaria Apologia and the link to the free pictures Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 07:20:55 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Request Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: Dear Request, If aspirants what to learn the meditation techniques they are available without tying into the devotional aspect, the most harmful, IMHO. Some people who were very devoted had no med. experience and some did. That experience has nothing to do with M's control or I wouldn't still experience it when I meditate! Seems to me that says it all, if they feel the need for a guru, find another, apparently there are lots out there who are not so controling and not in the need of huge donations to keep up their lifestyles. Good luck and thanks, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 09:30:59 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: report Subject: Non-net aspirant request Message: Dear report, Please keep us posted on how it goes with your providing info to the premies. I thought Sir David's site had some good posts from here re: some of the big issues around Maharaji. Also, ROger Drek's site has some too, as well as this site of course. I would recommend posts that dissect the logic (or illogic) of M and knowledge, as well as posts which talk of the very personal stories (feelings of inadequacy, questioning but not be able to express doubts, etc) that some of us felt as premies. There are so many eloquent people on the forum who have expressed these things so well. What I would like to hear more about, when you get the chance, is how you are able to move between the 2 worlds of premie and ex-premie. You must either be very diplomatic or very caring or the premie community you are involved in is more open than most, or both. I'd like to hear your secrets because it may help those of us with premie friends to be able to negotiate those relationships better. Do the premies in your community know you are an ex? Are you a sort of double agent? I understand if you are not going to reveal too much about yourself at this time. Good luck with deseminating the info, & let us know what happens. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:24:14 (EDT)
From: AJW Email: None To: Request Subject: A Piece of Paper for Aspirants Message: Hi Request, Give them a piece of paper with this on: DANGER You are being lured into a religious cult. For your own peace of mind, information, mental and financial health, go to an Internet Cafe, or visit a friend with a computer. Say, 'I need to go on the Internet for an hour. It's a matter of life and death. Can you find this website for me: Ex-premie.org'. Read and be saved. Anth the Practical (You can leave 'Anth the Practical off the bottom if you like'.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:29:37 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Request Subject: Some site pages of relevance Message: Here's some site pages that talk about the 'aspirant process'. If you're able to print these out, they might be useful. There are (I think) five pages that talk about the aspirant process, including the knowledge session itself. There are also a couple of personal stories by aspirants (one who decided NOT to get knowledge, and one who was rejected). The link to the first page is The Aspirant Process, Part 1. You can follow the links on the bottom of this page for more information. Good luck! I think it's fascinating that people have asked you to do this. Take care - Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:34:45 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Request Subject: Another good page on this site Message: Here's another good page on this site that you might find useful. It basically describes WHY and HOW we became ex-premies. Questioning Devotion Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 13:30:31 (EDT)
From: barney Email: None To: Request Subject: Don't forget AJW's Journey Message: Don't forget the all time classic, AJW's Journey Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 14:02:22 (EDT)
From: Helen Email: None To: barney Subject: Don't forget AJW's Journey Message: Yes the tale that put the words 'drip drip drip' into the forum's lexicon! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 14:20:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Request Subject: HI REPORT!!!! Message: Report: I am glad to see that you are following up on the aspirants' inquiries. You are doing a good thing by answering their questions. Have you seen the recent threads here in which Maharaji appears to have ordered the premies not to read or post on this site any more? They are in the archives now and it begins with Rob: PWK: SANDRA, CAT, IMPORTANT, or something like that. Print out that thread as it has lots of important discussion in it. There's also a recent DLM & Dysfunction thread that was particularly good. So is the one about social conscience, above. Find a couple of the Journeys that you like and print them out. Good luck to you! Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:53:31 (EDT)
From: Request' report Email: None To: Marianne Subject: this all helps Message: One of the aspirants is now declared himself an exass. This happened while I was dusting off my printer to get this stuff organized and I had nothing to do with it. Now that is grace.. He has a computer and will put time into this because his girlfriend is an ass. (his words not mine) All the suggestions above help to focus the situation and educate this exass. I am working as a totally incognito fenceline premie because these people look at me but do not see anybody but a devotional unit. Rocking the boat in a big way by challenging the video screen would not be the best tactic. These asses need to have reasoned discussion while they are still capable of it. Even the aged premies that come sometimes seem to be checking into a trip they once knew to see if still holds any glory for them. They talk to me because I am of the same vintage. So my approach is 'this is what is being said.' There is one old premie that has a puzzled look like he is at sea in a storm and he thinks he sees a lighthouse but it might be an illusion. But they are all too smart to buy the 'dont listen to the negativity' garbage. M cannot fight the fact that 90's people are not so almight stupid. To the whole thread - all suggestions are helping to refine the search and makes it possible for different types of asses to get different info. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 17:25:12 (EDT)
From: Marianne Email: None To: Request' report Subject: HI AGAIN! Message: Report: You are doing a good job. Your approach seems to be working and helping folks to think about their choices, which is the most we can hope for. Keep us posted. Marianne Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 17:57:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry Email: None To: Request' report Subject: this all helps Message: Hi, Request. I think what you're doing is great. I wish you the best. I especially agree with this statement you made: These asses need to have reasoned discussion while they are still capable of it. I'm glad you're there to provide them with that. I hope they listen. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 21:53:51 (EDT)
From: Victoria Email: None To: Request Subject: are you for real? Message: When I first read your request, I wondered if you were for real or some kind of trick. But your later report sounds very real and funny too (ex-ass)! When I was an aspirant, or even pre-aspirant, I believe my biggest downfall was thinking that I was smart enough to see through it. I trusted myself implicitly and felt that even though it looked like a cult, I would survive and overcome any programming efforts. Needless to say, that's not how it panned out and I feel this is one of the major things that M and K has robbed me of...my self-confidence and self-trust. Of course, most teenagers do feel indestructible and they need that to make their way in the world... On the other hand, maybe I did win in the end since I gave only a year or two to Maharaji. Except that, looking back one of my BIGGEST mistakes was trying to salvage something from those years...even though I dumped M, I held on and still cling to lots of the programming which I can see, in retrospect, has led me down the wrong, wrong, wrong path time and again. This forum is helping me to re-wire those circuits, and after all these years! Tell them, this cult is toxic and though it may be interesting and fun at times, it's effects are insidious and long-lasting, tell them he is NOT NOT NOT the One. Tell them they are not safe, this knowledge is very powerful and it can GET you, even when you have survived other dangerous things relatively intact. Good luck and best wishes. Love, Victoria Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 03:50:33 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Victoria Subject: There you go, Victoria! Message: Yup! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 23:20:10 (EDT)
From: Gail Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: Special Offer $5 Introductory Video Package A special introductory package is available via the Visions website. It includes a six-minute video introduction to Maharaji and his message, and an introductory brochure with information about Maharaji and Knowledge, a section of questions and answers and contact numbers to find out more. Also available as an Audio Package. Only $5 Something New! We are now offering a Personal Subscription, the details of which will be in a brochure available through the mail and at local events. See the ad for the Personal Subscription inside this brochure. The Personal Subscription will make the latest events, feature videos and audiocassettes available to you without having to wait for the nest brochure or event. We hope this will be a way for you to stay in touch and enjoy! You are invited to kkep in touch with Maharaji as he travels the world. The information line for events with Maharaji is (818) 889—0500. Other new videos: A Profound Choice This video is intended for people who have received Knowledge and aspirants preparing to receive Knowldetge. 'If I have a choice, that has some profound implications. Can I choose joy? Can I choose love? Can I choose rejoicing?' Maharaji .... $20 min. $15 Understanding Knowledge Intended for people who have received Knowledge and aspirants preparing to receive Knowledge. 'Knowledge has its origin in the heart. When I understand how simple I am. ...then I know why my heart desires joy.' Maharaji.............$20 min. $15 Genuine Passion 'Passion is the point. Love is the point. That feeling is the point.' Maharaji Selections from the evening event in Wembley, June 13, 1998 (AJW’s drip, drip, drip) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 11:12:27 (EDT)
From: Curly Email: None To: Gail Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: I'm still waiting for M's workout video: 'Bums of Flab'. Did the catalogue mention when will that one be out? Love, Curly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:37:41 (EDT)
From: JW Email: None To: Curly Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: Other self-help videos from Visions on Maharaji and his message: 'How to Speak Repetitive, Boring, Nonsense and Still Sound Profound in 10 Easy Lessons' 'Dance Like A Dork and Still Make People Go Nuts' 'Fabulous Wealth Through Claimed Divinity or Nobody Ever Got Rich Underestimating the Gullibility of People' 'Make a Fortune Through Video Production In Your Own Home' 'Avoid Taxes: Pretend to Be A Religion' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 13:32:30 (EDT)
From: Mike Email: None To: Gail Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: Gail: I just love this one.... ''If I have a choice, that has some profound implications. Can I choose joy? Can I choose love? Can I choose rejoicing?' Maharaji' Yes of course, you can 'choose' to sit around and do nothing, just like you always have. I find it amazing that M even speaks of 'profound implications' and 'choices' since all he does is to encourage people to sit and watch the world fly by (with no involvement at all). Another pearl of wizdumb: 'When I understand how simple I am. ...then I know why my heart desires joy.' Maharaji' M is 'simple' because he is uneducated. His minions gleefully follow him into this abyss of ignorance. Hey M, I have the answer already. Your 'brain' desires joy because it feels good...... period! Look up the word 'endorphin' in your encyclopaedia (you do have one, right?) and it will explain it to you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 19:09:57 (EDT)
From: Satsang Sam Email: None To: Mike Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: Yes Mike, it is beautyful to be simple. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 12:56:40 (EDT)
From: CD Email: None To: Mike Subject: Vision Catalogue-May, 1999 Message: >Maharaji' M is 'simple' because he is uneducated. I am suprised you would say he is uneducated. Certainly the university is not the only place where people educate themselves. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 18:28:21 (EDT)
From: RT sings Dylan Email: ommm To: the tune of Subject: 'Like a Rolling Stone' Message: For Maharaji, a.k.a. Lord of the Universe, a.k.a. Perfect Master, a.k.a. Satguru, etc. Whatever. Troll: 1. To fish for by trailing a baited line, from behind a slowly moving boat. Drone: 1. To speak in a monotonous tone. 2.To pass or act in a monotonous way. With A Trolling Drone thanks to Bob Dylan Once a Krishna time, you dressed 'divine' Lots of Darshan time in your prime, didn't you? Family called, saying 'Beware Pal, you're bound to fall' You thought they were all 'in their mind'… boo hoo. You used to gloat about Everybody that was estranged in doubt To us you don't talk so loud To us, you don't seem so proud About having to be aspiring for...jet plane fuel. The TAO - does it reel! The TAO - does it reel! To scam a yogic OM onto young brainwashed clones With A Trolling Drone. You've had built the finest homes all right, Mr. Guru But you know you only used them to get fat in it And nobody has ever taught you how to be accountable Hope you find out you're gonna have to get taxed in it. You said you'd never compromise With the Ex-Premies, but now we realize We're not buying any alibis As the world sees true history on Web Sites. Just Say Know... Would you want to...THINK REVEAL ?! The TAO - does it reel! TAO - does it reel! To scam a yogic OM Overlayed in Hindu tones making mind washed clones With a trolling drone. You never turned around to see the frowns on the suicides in the towns When they all bowed down and...mid-wifed for you You never understood that it ain't no good You shouldn't let other people give their...life to you You ride on the slave Jet with your wallet fat From the Self-serving videos edited for Western chat. Aw, ain't it hard when We Uncovered That.. You Really Aren't! Prem Raw-rat.. After you took all our Time and Labor you could steal! How to reveal? How to reveal? About your palatial homes And the devotees zoned into simpleminded clones By your trolling drone Premies will not reap all; and new pretty people- Fools winkin' thinkin' that they're leaving hell Hustling all kinds of donated gifts and checks But you're gonna hear IRS ring, you'd better own up to the sell. You used to be so bemused At Mahatma Ji in rags and his devotion you abused Go to them now, they beg you, 'cause we refuse When you got no new members you got money to lose You're delete-able now, you got no secrets to conceal! How does THIS feel? World Wide Web Reveal We meditate alone. We're not your brainwashed clones. Your scam completely known; Peace is: no Trolling Drone! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 19:02:34 (EDT)
From: cp Email: None To: RT sings Dylan Subject: 'Like a Rolling Stone' Message: Rt thank you. and are you the one that used to live in Mill Valley? You dont have say. I propose that this song goes to the top of every new page or somewhere to correctly inform the premies that read but do not post. This way we can take advantage of the premie/aspirants curiosity that the rumour of the agya has created. Getting the message about M is light hearted but speaks of warning. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 07:56:29 (EDT)
From: RT Email: omm To: cp Subject: 'Like a Rolling Stone' 2 Message: But what if Robert Zimmerman is an Aspirant? How duz it feeel? RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 15:00:48 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Everyone Subject: More security on premie forum Message: Hi everyone - As most of the people who read THIS forum may know, there has been some discussion about the fact that the ISP (IP) numbers of the people who post on the 'PREMIES and FRIENDS' forum were revealed in simple encryption. Thus anyone with a modicum of intelligence could figure out someone's ISP number and trace it. CD has now removed the ISP display feature from this forum, so the ISP's of anyone who posts there are NOT visible in any form. I hope people don't think it's weird that I'm posting this message, by the way (I swear it's not an evil plot. CD is definitely a premie, and I am definitely not, but we are/were both webmasters so we relate on that level, among others). I do know a couple of premies who enjoy posting on that forum and have been frustrated by the lack of recent posts, so I hope this helps. Take care all - Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 15:05:41 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: P.S. Message: P.S. Someone recently asked me for the URL of the PREMIES AND FRIENDS forum - here it is: Post to Premies and Friends Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 15:13:35 (EDT)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: P.S. Message: Thanks sweetie, I'll pass it on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 19:02:16 (EDT)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Are you talking with him? Message: Katie, If you're talking with Chris would you please ask him the big question we're all anxious to answer. No, not the meaning of pi or what happens if you're in infinity and you have to go number one. But does he know anything about the 'Agya'. Thanks, Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 19:26:49 (EDT)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes but... Message: ...my track record on getting Chris to answer questions that you ask is terrible, as you know. AND I feel uncomfortable about it, too. All I know is that Chris is interested in keeping the premie forum open and secure for people to post on. At the risk of sounding snotty, I suggest that you ask him yourself :). You guys know each other pretty well by now, right? Love, Katie P.S. My personal opinion on the 'agya' thing is that it's similar to what happened to Harlan's Guestbook a while back (Calling All Premies). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 20:09:01 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Katie Subject: they'll read but not post Message: Maharaji doesn't want premies to read this little web page but that's an impossibility. It's like telling a child not to look in the box. The fact that you said don't look in it will arouse the child's curiosity even more. Premies will read this forum but perhaps they won't post here for a while. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |