RT -:- teotwawki- y2k Summary -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:41:33 (EDT)

Secret Agent Man -:- Jagdeo - Agent of DLM/EV? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:49:12 (EDT)

__ Know It All -:- Re: Jagdeo - Agent of DLM/EV? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 15:32:32 (EDT)

__ __ S.A.M. -:- Civil lawsuit - statute of limitations? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:07:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ KIA -:- Re: Civil lawsuit - statute of limitations? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:20:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ S.A.M. -:- I'm an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill. -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:34:30 (EDT)

AJW -:- Dear Anth (2) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:10:40 (EDT)

__ glen the idiot -:- what it means to be alive? -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:30:57 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Re: Dear Anth (2) -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:24:42 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Dear Anth (2) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:07:17 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Very upsetting -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:58:16 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 17:45:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ S.A.M. -:- Have I got a deal for you, Mel -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 05:03:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Coincidence? -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:09:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mel assessing face value -:- Re: Coincidence? -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 06:17:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Faith. -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 13:03:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ gmom -:- uh uh...they are lying -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 18:30:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: uh uh...they are lying -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 06:27:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wanna help us Mel? -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 13:55:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a lummox -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 11:48:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gmom -:- mel- -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:28:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: mel- -:- Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 06:02:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Fred -:- gmom to Glen -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 22:21:13 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Then name them -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:27:25 (EDT)

__ __ Diz -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:10:33 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:29:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ Angry Man -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:14:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:14:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Angry Man -:- Re: Very upsetting -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 22:18:37 (EDT)

Robyn -:- Another birthday Richard! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:49:06 (EDT)

Christopher -:- Whetting the whistle-blower -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:38:24 (EDT)

__ Mr D -:- Re: Whetting the whistle-blower -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:45:51 (EDT)

__ __ microvolt -:- Durga Ji = Parvati -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:58:11 (EDT)

__ __ Christopher -:- Re: Whetting the whistle-blower -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:57:19 (EDT)

Robyn -:- Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:17:04 (EDT)

__ Gmom -:- a guess -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 18:38:56 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Re: a guess -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 19:01:23 (EDT)

__ Christopher -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:29:22 (EDT)

__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:42:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ Christopher -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:52:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:02:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Thick as a plank -:- What's with this hummer thingy? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:34:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: What's with this hummer thingy? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:20:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thick as a plank -:- No - I win -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:45:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: No - I win -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:52:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: No - I win -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:15:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, you guys! Wish Brian a happy birthday! -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:16:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Happy Birthday Brian -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:59:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Re: Happy Birthday Brian -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 13:23:57 (EDT)

__ Thick as a plank -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:48:31 (EDT)

__ __ Katie -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:09:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Thick as a plank -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:40:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:46:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:55:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:07:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christopher -:- Re: Mystery Birthday! -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 08:05:50 (EDT)

jean-Michel -:- Mysterious Holy Names -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:29:18 (EDT)

__ Shp -:- Re: Mysterious Holy Names -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:25:04 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Mysterious Holy Names -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:18:15 (EDT)

__ __ Liz -:- Re: Mysterious Holy Names -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:31:14 (EDT)

gmom -:- Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:57:53 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Brian 'fuckhead' McDermott -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:30:37 (EDT)

__ __ Liz -:- Re: Brian 'fuckhead' McDermott -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 22:35:27 (EDT)

__ __ The Gris Gris NightTripper -:- Is that 7 years per 'incident'? -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 17:34:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, we can laugh now ... -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 22:29:37 (EDT)

__ Howabout... -:- Krishna Sukanand... (sp?) (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:31:02 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Umesh Dar, Adharanand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:17:48 (EDT)

__ __ Katie -:- Aha! Adharanand -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 19:04:33 (EDT)

__ __ Liz -:- Re: Ashokanand -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:18:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Ashokanand -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:21:17 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- Who travelled with the mahatmas & when? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:54:26 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I did ! -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:27:41 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Who was the first western woman? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:21:45 (EDT)

__ __ Monmot -:- Re: Who was the first western woman? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:38:43 (EDT)

__ Robyn -:- Re: Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:17:41 (EDT)

__ __ gmom -:- yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:24:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:18:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ Enough -:- Re: yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:59:12 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- What about M Wood? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 09:04:48 (EDT)

__ Enough -:- Re: Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:25:16 (EDT)

__ __ Enough -:- And let's not forget -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:01:19 (EDT)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Gitanand -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:17:31 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- The first Westerners -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:11:17 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- 1st was Mahatma Saphlanand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:09:10 (EDT)

__ __ gmom -:- Bill Patterson ( Indian name?) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:13:56 (EDT)

__ __ gmom -:- Arthur Brigham (Indian name?) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:13:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Arthur Brigham was Parampremanand -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:23:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Arthur Brigham (Indian name?) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:13:19 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Padarthanand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:08:06 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Trevinand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:06:55 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Vijanand (spelling?) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:06:05 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Vijayanand -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:51:18 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Fakiranand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:04:58 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:04:09 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Parlokanand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:02:48 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Prakesh Bai -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:01:56 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Rajeswar (please fix spelling!) (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:59:41 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Rajeshwar -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:47:32 (EDT)

__ __ gmom -:- He was a judge pre premie? (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:16:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Yes he was a judge pre premie? ... -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:24:02 (EDT)

__ gmom -:- Guru Charnanand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:58:42 (EDT)

__ __ microvolt -:- Gyan Yoganand (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:39:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ microvolt -:- Mohani Bai (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:40:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Mohani Bai .... -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:27:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ microvolt -:- Re: Mohani Bai .... -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:51:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Angry Man -:- What the ffff? -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:34:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Orlando -:- recent info about ALL mahatmas -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 19:03:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Orlando... -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:34:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tampa -:- cruel employer -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:16:57 (EDT)

Diz -:- Building an abuse-resistant culture -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 18:39:27 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Thanks Diz. -:- Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:27:30 (EDT)

__ Roger E. Drek -:- ***Best of the Forum*** -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 23:57:40 (EDT)

__ Keith -:- Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 21:57:48 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- What do you mean. -:- Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 14:10:05 (EDT)

__ __ Mr D -:- The downward spiral to bewilderment -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 23:35:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ gmom -:- What I think... -:- Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:29:29 (EDT)

__ __ the Anti Keith -:- Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 22:10:12 (EDT)

__ Zac -:- Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 20:50:56 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- ROGER--****BEST OF**** -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 20:44:47 (EDT)

__ __ Gmom -:- I second that! Excellent Diz!!!(nt) -:- Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 22:52:00 (EDT)

Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:41:33 (EDT) From: RT Email: OMM To: All Subject: teotwawki- y2k Summary Message:

Dear Friends MY MANTRA: Self reliance, guru defiance. Forget the man and prepare while you can. RT no party http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/5614 Comment: It is time to present my summary of what is incontrovertibly true, with only five months to go. I shall low-ball my remarks, making them as close to unchallengeable as I can. 1. The number of companies in the world that have reported 100% compliance of all mission-critical systems, and 100% compliance of its vendors and suppliers, is zero. We do not have to raise the two issues of final, integrated testing and third-party verification until one such company appears. 2. Noncompliant data will corrupt compliant data when imported into compliant systems.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:49:12 (EDT) From: Secret Agent Man Email: None To: All Subject: Jagdeo - Agent of DLM/EV? Message:

I have only played an attorney on a very successful TV show that you may have seen a few years ago. Therefore, I know little of the real law. However, isn't there some responsibility in terms of Agent-Agency in the alleged Jagdeo sexual abuse incidents. Whereas Jagdeo was an employee, an agent, of his employer, Divine Light Mission-Elan Vital. Isn't there then responsibility, culpability, and liability of the Agency/Employer when the alleged crimes took place during working hours? Additionally, wasn't Jagdeo even assisted by DLM/EV in his criminal activities by employees of DLM/EV as they very well provided him with transportation and even rooms where the alleged sexual abuse took place. Essentially, Jagdeo did not act alone. I assume Jagdeo had no direct access to vehicles. DLM/EV provided cars with drivers. DLM/EV officials or other employees might have even arranged the meetings with the children. Basically, DLM/EV (the employer) must have aided and abetted Jagdeo in his criminal activity.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 15:32:32 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Secret Agent Man Subject: Re: Jagdeo - Agent of DLM/EV? Message:

That might be a legal theory upon which a lawsuit might be brought against DLM/EV for any proven civil misbehavior by Jagdeo. Sort of like the suits brought against the Catholic Church.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:07:46 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Civil lawsuit - statute of limitations? Message:

KIA, Any Statute of Limitations apply to such civil cases? So, just one person involved in a Jagdeo act of persersion could file such a lawsuit. Which jurisdiction? They could get depositions, financial records, etc.? I'd like to sue because just hearing about this stuff makes me ill. Maharaji has succeeded in establishing world peace!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:20:32 (EDT) From: KIA Email: None To: S.A.M. Subject: Re: Civil lawsuit - statute of limitations? Message:

SAM: Do you like green eggs & ham? M established world piece..... The statute of limitations issue is a sticky one & varies from state to state. The internet is not a good place to take firm positions on this type of issue, so I am going to steer clear of it. And for all you know, I may be the Attorney for the Supreme Being, or I may be some clerk at the local JM Fields department store. As far as Jagdeo is concerned, the person who might be able to bring a civil lawsuit would probably have to have been sexually abused by him, if such an event in fact occured. Any such person needs to seek advice from an attorney skilled in this area of law. A clerk at JM Fields is not such a person. In most states, when a civil suit is filed against another person or entity, discovery is permitted. That usually means depositions, subpoenas, etc. Once again, only a skilled professional could advise about the potential targets of such discovery devices, not a clerk from JM Fields. I breathlessly await your answer to my question about the green eggs and ham. Know It All

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:34:30 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: KIA Subject: I'm an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill. Message:

As such I am only to aware what makes those eggs green. Therefore, I do not partake.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:10:40 (EDT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: All Subject: Dear Anth (2) Message:

Hi, I received a reply from Glen, (see below). It looks like he's been to see his lawyers. I'll publish my reply in a couple of days. Again, I retyped it, so I apologise if there's an odd typo. Gorra go, Anth the Speedfreak. Elan Vital. 5th September 6, 1999 Dear Anth, Thank you for your response. Although you did not, as I requested, provide information on the name(s) of the alleged victim(s), or any details on the alleged offences, your news that any information you have is now in the hands of the police is very welcome. If we can assist them in any way we shall be happy to do so, and it would help to know details of whom the allegation has been reported to. On our part, we are also seeking advice from the relevant authorities in this field to ensure appropriate actions are taken. I assure you Anth, we have researched extensively by asking people in this organisation and in the American Elan Vital about these allegations, but so far no-one, including the people you mention, has any recollection of them. This is not to suggest that the alleged incidents did not take place. Despite what you may believe the sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive. I would like to reiterate that your allegations are as upsetting to us as they are to you and should the alleged victim in the case you speak of come forward we will offer her all the help we can in co-operation with the relevant authorities. Yours, sincerely, Glen Whittaker.

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:30:57 (EDT) From: glen the idiot Email: None To: AJW Subject: what it means to be alive? Message:

ask him what it means to be alive

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:24:42 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Dear Anth (2) Message:

Anth, This is really simple. Please ask Glen if he asked Maharaji himself. You know, the alleged recipient of the information? Unless Glen takes that step even his 'investigation' as superficial as it is, looks ridiculous. You know, even Nixon had to answer a few questions, I believe.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:07:17 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Dear Anth (2) Message:

I presume 'the people you mention' means the people to whom the abuse was originally reported to back in the seventies. They would have everything to gain and nothing to lose by forgetting about the whole affair and would be unreliable witnesses after so much time, anyway. Surely, only the people who were once abused by Jagdeo would be reliable witnesses with any clout. If these people now inform the proper authorities, together as a group, then Glen Whittaker does not come into the equation and only Jagdeo and Maharaji himself would be involved. The only thing to remember here is that Maharaji may have been a minor when the incidents took place. He was under 18 before 10th December 1975. If he was under eighteen, he could be judged to have been too young to have been resposible for the activities of any abusers in Divine Light Mission.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 16:58:16 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: AJW Subject: Very upsetting Message:

I do not know if they lied to Glenn or if they all decided to lie together. But these are clearly not good people. I feel like an idiot for trying so hard to keep names off the site. How can they live with themselves?

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 17:45:22 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: mbvictoria@hotmail To: gmom Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

Hi Gmom It seems Elan Vital has responded to these allegations and offered support and assistance in good faith. Now's the time for you and other victims to come forward and rid your self (and us) of the demons. Be brave and good luck! Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 05:03:04 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Have I got a deal for you, Mel Message:

Mel, You're absolutely correct, 100% correct. Elan Vital did just as you say, they made a good faith effort. Say, I've got this old bridge in New York that I really need to sell now and sell cheap. Give me an offer, practically any reasonable offer will take this thing away. How about it, Mel?

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:09:53 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Coincidence? Message:

Hi Mel, Do you think it's a coincidence that Elan Vital have suddenly become enthusiastic to investigate these incidents, at exactly the same time a British newspaper is investigating the story? Anth the Putting two and two together.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 06:17:21 (EDT) From: Mel assessing face value Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Coincidence? Message:

Hi Anth I concede Elan Vital is apppears to be doing a bit of (maybe long overdue) housekeeping on this issue, but I think that the effort is sincere even if belated. So coincidence? May be ;) Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 13:03:14 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel assessing face value Subject: Faith. Message:

Mel, Their interest coincided, to the day, with the story breaking. So, that's 365 days a year, times 25 years, must be around 10,000 to one. Now then, Jagdeo has commited offences in the USA as well as Britain. I wonder Mel, if a story, or a police investigation was imminent in the States, do you think, co-incidentally, that Elan Vital would suddenly take it seriously? But I see where you're coming from Mel. It's called faith. You're running on faith. I've got a strong suspicion that's the last thing to go. You're going to make a great Ex- Mel. Anth the Optimist.

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 18:30:48 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: uh uh...they are lying Message:

Mel, It isn't good faith. There is a big fat lie in that letter and I do not trust they have good intentions at all.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 06:27:24 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: uh uh...they are lying Message:

Hi again gmom, You say..'...It isn't good faith. There is a big fat lie in that letter and I do not trust they have good intentions at all. Be that as it may, but you have now been given a recognition that the allegations have been heard, and an offer of support has been made. These things don't come lightly, take advantage of your opportunity and clear the air. With respect Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 13:55:11 (EDT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Wanna help us Mel? Message:

Mel, You should be able to understand that these victims have already been incredibly brave, by coming forward and speaking out in public. They were abused by an official of an organisation, on premises managed by members of the organisation. Reports to officials went unheeded for decades, until pressure from the press and the law began. You suggested somewhere else, it could be co-oincidence that, when these crimes are reported to the police, and the press get interested, the cult are suddenly concerned about the welfare of these victims. And now you're saying they should go back to another official of the same organisation, who, has suddenly become interested in their welfare. Mel, it's been quite apparent throughout this whole affair that the main concern of Elan Vital has been to protect their Master from public scrutiny. You're a premie Mel, you know the name of the game. You know who people think Maharaji is. Living as a disciple of the living lord distorts your perception. Hey Mel, why don't you pick up a phone, call Maharaji and ask him if any instructors told him about Jagdeo? If he's not available, leave a message. Do you think Maharaji is perfect Mel? That he can do no wrong? I've got news for you. He's full of faults like the rest of us. Mel, why don't you help us bring Jagdeo to justice instead of pretending the cult will 'clear the air'. Find out his address and phone number. He's still around in India somewhere. Email it to me. If the cult really want to 'clear the air' they could inform the police where he is. The instructors g-mom told about his offences, 'can't remember' being told. Maybe if she tells someone a third time, they'll forget too. Stop making excuses for a tacky little cult. Anth back here on earth.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 11:48:38 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: You're a lummox Message:

Have you no idea what you're talking about, Mel? Like, none?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:28:58 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: mel- Message:

Mel, If I were to talk to these guys it appears that they would soon be 'unable to recollect' the conversation anyway. The lie in that letter is a slap in the face to me personally. They know who I am because I did report it. They don't need me to contact them. Unfortunatly, if they contact me they admit that what I am saying is true. They're creeps Mel.

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Date: Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 06:02:52 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: mel- Message:

Hi Gmom Actually, I'm also suggesting that you use this opportunity to report your story to the appropriate authorities and get them to investigate the matter..... I understand your reluctance to raise the issue again with EV, but they are obviously aware that the allegations should be properly investigated, so can raise no possible objection to your rights on the matter. Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 22:21:13 (EDT) From: Fred Email: None To: gmom Subject: gmom to Glen Message:

Dear Gmom, I have Glen's address if you would like to correspond with him personally on this sad subject. Best Regards to You, Fred

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:27:25 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gmom Subject: Then name them Message:

Gmom, Time to play your hand. Let them come forward to clear their good names if what you say ain't true.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:10:33 (EDT) From: Diz Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

Just wanted to send some love and empathy through cyber-space to you, g-mom. I guess this is why victims often don't try to obtain justice - those wanting to protect their positions deny their stories, and that denial makes the betrayal even deeper. Don't forget that there's a lot of us, some premies as well as exes, who DO believe your story and admire your courage greatly. If these people are lying - and I guess it's either that, or Glen's got it wrong, or they forgot(?!) - then that is a huge indictment of MJ's world. It can only be to try to make sure no responsibility comes back to MJ. What did he say about his responsibility to his 'students'? Something along the lines of 'Responsibility? This isn't about responsibility. This is about love.' Some love. Take care Diz

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:29:29 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

Those guys would die to protect their Lord !!! Don't forget this.... Lying is not an issue.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:14:14 (EDT) From: Angry Man Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

Jagdeo is their lord?

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:14:32 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Angry Man Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

No angry man, Jagdeo was a 'Mahatma', travelling around the world preaching and initiating people into the cult. He was a full time official, and, for all I know, may well still be one. Mahatmas were figures of importance in the cult. They selected and initiated people into the mediation. Jadgeo was a full-time, fully supported representative of their lord. Anth the Just for the Record.

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 22:18:37 (EDT) From: Angry Man Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Very upsetting Message:

If Jagdeo is guilty of the crimes he is accused of, then he is a sick man who needs help. Angry Man, who can tell the difference between one person and another.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:49:06 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: All Subject: Another birthday Richard! Message:

Here I am checking my records only to find that it is also Richard's Birthday, Richard from England, he stops in from time to time. I hope he sees this wish for a great day and a happy life. God, you English guys are the greatest! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:38:24 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: All Subject: Whetting the whistle-blower Message:

The gauntlet that I laid down yesterday is not one to be lightly ignored. Nor is this: M's wife,who has now reverted to her name of birth: Marolyn (note:YN), was given another name when she married him. Her acquired name (though she is no longer known by it), was Durga Ji, and, according to the Larousse dictionary of Mythology, Durga is one of the names, or 'aspects' of the Hindu Goddess Kali. Would M care to educate us on the origins of this Goddess' name? And why choose THAT name for a Maid, ...Rawi? You are requested to reply to THIS Forum.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:45:51 (EDT) From: Mr D Email: None To: Christopher Subject: Re: Whetting the whistle-blower Message:

I like to see irrepressable optomism. But your chances of getting a reply from Maharaji are much slimmer than me winning the UK lottery, and I never play it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:58:11 (EDT) From: microvolt Email: None To: Chrsitopher Subject: Durga Ji = Parvati Message:

Chris, Durga Ji is another name for Parvati, Shiva's wife. (Kali is just an aspect of her.) Meaning, Prempal insinuated that he was Shiva, a God, the lord of yogis!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:57:19 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: Mr D Subject: Re: Whetting the whistle-blower Message:

You're not a gambling man then? Yours sheepishly

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:17:04 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: All Subject: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Hey everyone, in light of my suggestion that naming mahatmas is a game I thought I'd continue in that vien. Can you guess: Birthdays come and go and come and go..... piling up like laundry in the corner or dishes in the sink! :) Rarely do you find someone who doesn't enjoy 'their' day. Imagine someone we love and respect and someone who has worked hard to save lots of folks from the cult. Almost all people here have emailed and or spoken on the phone to this person Now that I've given you the clues, can anyone guess!? Hmmm, the prize, geez, if I can play I should make it a Hummer as that would make me the happiest! I wish I was a poet like Larkin and RT, sorry I wasn't more creative but I have told you who it is. It is like my dad's rules for easter egg hidding, you have to do it so you can see just a bit of the egg... Love you on your birthday and every day, The Moon Lodge Gopies, the PERFECT name for me today!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 18:38:56 (EDT) From: Gmom Email: None To: Robyn Subject: a guess Message:

Marianne?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 19:01:23 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Gmom Subject: Re: a guess Message:

No such luck. Mine is February 13

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:29:22 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Forgive my poor memory. Was it the Q-Tip you were looking for? Have a word with Gerry, he might be able to help. Be Clear!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:42:32 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Christopher Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Dear Chistopher, I thought someone would have gotten it by now! Thought the first person to see it would. Talking about being clear dear, you've lost me on the Q-Tip thing, makes me think you are a particular person but don't think you really are. Also your mention of Gerry, who happens to have a birthday 2 days after mine, is pretty unclear to me! I am suspisious that you are just trying to screw me out of that Hummer! Back off it's mine! ;) Like I said, it is there, visible, like the easter eggs. Been to long since you hunted for easter eggs maybe. Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:52:33 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Re the Q-tip: In London they call it mutt'n'jeff, in Scotland, 'corned beef', or do my ears deceive me? Who would ever say that they are no person in particular? The ship is yet to set sail. And that Hum is sure gonna ding! (are you sure it's yours?) Gerry may have an easter egg. Why not e-mail him? Amazed. Love

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:02:39 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Christopher Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Dear Chistopher, Let me re explain this. I know the answer, I am supposed to be sitting here like the Cheshire Cat watching YOU twist and turn your brain around my post and sweat out answers or guesses until you get it right. Does this help you? You won't win the prize for sure if you don't start playing the game!!!! I can picture me driving my new Hummer right now! Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 20:34:32 (EDT) From: Thick as a plank Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What's with this hummer thingy? Message:

What is a hummer? We don't have them in Britain. And yes Robyn, I may have given you an illegal extra vote but don't tell the net police. So is/was it YOUR birthday? It will soon be tomorrow. It already is Wednesday over here. And then it will be too late and I'll turn into a pumpkin.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:20:22 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Thick as a plank Subject: Re: What's with this hummer thingy? Message:

Sorry guys I went out to a friends for dinner good conversation and a little Ricola! :) Now you poor Brits will have missed it and Christopher. Looks like I WIN!!!! :) Thick, a hummer is a civilian vehichle that is really or originally a military vehichle. Living in the hills and having bad winters and working an hour up hill from where I live and just not feeling safe driving in bad weather down the road, I could relax a lot and not hate it here in the winter so much. So I win officially and I will be around to pick up my hummer at the central office! Now I told you all it was right there before your eyes. Take the first letter off of each sentence to get his name. Maybe I should tell you so you don't have to go back but I'm not. (She says with an evil laugh) :) Hahahaha! Happy Birthday friend. See you soon. Love to the birthday boy and all of you who participated in this game. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:45:52 (EDT) From: Thick as a plank Email: None To: Robyn Subject: No - I win Message:

I suggested it was Brian in my post below. Therefore you owe me a Sherman tank, if that's what a hummer thingy is. I'll expect one in the post soon. Please send it by express airmail.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:52:52 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Thick as a plank Subject: Re: No - I win Message:

Dear Plank, Don't you know nothin bout no game shows, you don't get to is this or this, you have to commit!!!! Sorry, tell you what I'll do, the thing is probably a submarine also so I just come on over and drive you around for 6 months of the year and then you can come here and drive me around for the other 6. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:15:04 (EDT) From: Katie Email: Sheesh, you guys, wish Brian a happy birthday!! (nt) To: Robyn Subject: Re: No - I win Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:16:46 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Robyn and Sir David Subject: Sheesh, you guys! Wish Brian a happy birthday! Message:

(snicker!)

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:59:26 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy Birthday Brian Message:

Dear Brian, Goodness, I meant to post a real Happy Brithday Brian and I fell asleep! Just woke up! I am a 2nd rate birthday goddess ain't I. Sorry dear. Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 13:23:57 (EDT) From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Brian Message:

From me, too, Brian Better late than never. Okay, okay, I'm really going now, at least until I get another e-mail about a birthday... Thanks for everything, VP

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:48:31 (EDT) From: Thick as a plank Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Who is it? Katie, Brian?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:09:28 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Thick as a plank Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

It's not me - I'm a Taurus, and I wouldn't be caught dead being a Virgo :) like our mystery birthday person (snicker...sheesh!) Happy Birthday and love always! Katie

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:40:52 (EDT) From: Thick as a plank Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Is it Jean-Michel? If it is, do I get a prize now? After all, I did make you Miss Anything Goes forum babe, last month, Robyn.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:46:36 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Thick as a plank Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Sorry dear, wrongola! How did you make me Miss Anything Goes forum babe? Did you vote a kazillian times? Thanks. ;) I still haven't received my cash reward from that!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:55:45 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Gotta go now. Library use limited. Off-line til tomorrow. Re the cash. We should ask Whinnie the Pooh. (or is that Rawi?) Bye

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 14:07:12 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Christopher Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

Dear Chistopher, Damn! I was really enjoying this. :) I guess you don't have a snowballs chance in hell now for that Hummer. Surely when you get back on line the mystery will be solved and some other particular person will be tooling around in style! :) Winne the Pooh is a favorite of mine, I am sure he will send the cash if he is in charge. Yipeeeee! Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 08:05:50 (EDT) From: Christopher Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Re: Mystery Birthday! Message:

'Snowball's chance in hell' you say? Read your Milton, m'dear, and find out what Iudecca means for .... ooops, are we learning something new here? Then say: 'Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the traitor to us all?' Apply a logical attitude to this, if possible (& would there be any reason for it to be IMpossible) 'Tooling around in style?' The seven sisters = PLEIADES - not pliers (another Q-tip) Who is WINNE the Pooh? Win North East or something. Very close to the bullseye sweetie, (I've seen a map reference somewhere to NT, but it was over a decade ago that I lived there) 'Nil', whoever you are, (and where are YOU now?) There's a score to settle. Remember it. The shrinkers are ones who are meant to examined their own consciences

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:29:18 (EDT) From: jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Mysterious Holy Names Message:

I'm having a very interesting conversation on with exsatsangis about their mysterious 5 'Names'. It looks like 'So-Hung' is one of them, but they don't want to tell anything for fallacious reasons...mainly under the pretense that 'there are people believing' in the power of these Names! I'm quite surprised !

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:25:04 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: jean-Michel Subject: Re: Mysterious Holy Names Message:

JM. My understanding about the Holy Name stems from the Jewish tradition. 'Ha-shem', or 'the Name', was not speakable, it was the ineffable name of the Most High (yes!), Blessed be He. Some Jews, out of respect, never use the words that refer to God directly, but always use 'Ha-shem'. 'Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name'. (Some friends of my who went to Catholic school thought for awhile that God's name was Harold....as in 'Harold be thy name'.) This corresponds to the Word, as in 'in the beginning was the Word..' and so on. Then thereare the modern day metaphors in our culture such as the Force (Star Wars), the Shwartz (Spaceballs) and the One Thing (City Slickers), just to name a few. ('Forget the ring! The Shwartz is inside you!' -Mel Brooks, Spaceballs) Five ineffable names for one primordial vibration of one Creator...never heard of that. That sound you mentioned above I have heard of before, but it was described not as a manifestation of the Holy Name, but rather as the sound I was guided to listen for and guide on in my practice of some previous meditations. These folks sound like they have some 'power words', but 5 Holy Names? That's a name one to me. Shp

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:18:15 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: jean-Michel Subject: Re: Mysterious Holy Names Message:

I understand that the Hindu thing about the name of God is closely linked to the breath or sound of the breath in some branches of the religion. Making different sounds with the breath is supposed to be speaking the different names of God although for me, my breath never sounded like 'so hung'. It sounds more like the sound of the sea and I cannot put a name to it because it doesn't sound like a name. Anyway, perhaps you know that some branches of Hinduism move the tongue about in the nasal cavity to make different sounds with the breath (heard by the breather) and these different sounds are supposed to be the various names of God and depending on one's advancement on the path, one listens to one particular sound before moving on and making another breathing sound and getting into that. God it is complicated! Why not call the holy word of God, 'Berdum', which is the sound of a heartbeat? Berdum, berdum, berdum, berdum...

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:31:14 (EDT) From: Liz Email: Nonr To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Mysterious Holy Names Message:

I like that...... berdumberdumberdum......or dumberdumberdumber.... Very Clever, Sir Dave. Love, Liz

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:57:53 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: All Subject: Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? Message:

I was talking with another ex about this. By all the names if someone has any description of the Mahatma and any information or even an interesting story to share add it on. It might make a nice entry when we are done for JM or Drek. A little bit of DLM history.

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 00:30:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gmom Subject: Brian 'fuckhead' McDermott Message:

This asshole told me that it would take seven years to repair my 'connection' to Maharaji after doing mushrooms one night before I mvoed back in to the 'shram. I'd truly like to smash him in the face for that one. Wouldn't you?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 22:35:27 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Brian 'fuckhead' McDermott Message:

Dear Jim, I'm sorry you lost your mojo. Sure sounds like it. Tell me about it. Since getting on this forum I've lost my mojo too. Maybe this is the reason that M canned Mahatmas. I hope the instructors are not going around with the same visions of grandeur. Milky Cole got me to annoint his feet with wheatgerm oil once.... not sure if he was or thought he was a mahatma. Uggh! previously he took over my business and didn't pay the rent so I lost it. He also gave me LSD and took me to see 2001. I freaked out and left the theatre... I don't think he tried to help me. Luckily I met up with some 'real' hippies coming out of a mascrobiotic restaurant and they made sure I got home safely. Love, Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 17:34:50 (EDT) From: The Gris Gris NightTripper Email: None To: Jim Subject: Is that 7 years per 'incident'? Message:

Dang! I guess that I have to wait sometime until the year 2350 to go back to Maharaji. How much time for an NDE speedball overdose?

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 22:29:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: The Gris Gris NightTripper Subject: Yes, we can laugh now ... Message:

...but back then it wasn't so funny. What was in vogue that year (76? 77?) was making these piddly appointments with initiators when they came to town. You know, you were supposed to end up in the instructor's room for a little tete-a-tete jsut before dinner. Then, you could come downstairs together, you freshly absolved of recent sins, the initiator reaffirmed in his or her egoless self-importance. These were meaningless whine-tasting sessions. I resisted for a while but finally succumbed. I made an appointment. Anyway, Brian McDermot, who I'd known as a mere human being in Toronto a few years back, gave me an opportunity to vent about my stagnant spiritual progress. In passing I mentioned that I'd done 'shrooms in '75 when I'd left the ashram for six months. Without pause or reservation but glaring with prefect-type zeal, he got right into my face and told me in no uncertain terms that I'd blown it. Irreversible damage. And yes, it would take at least seven years to get my mojo back. Brian, you ugly little creep, you were wrong. I'm still waiting.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:31:02 (EDT) From: Howabout... Email: None To: gmom Subject: Krishna Sukanand... (sp?) (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:17:48 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: gmom Subject: Umesh Dar, Adharanand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 19:04:33 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Aha! Adharanand Message:

Hi Jean-Michel - You finally came up with the name! I received K from Adharanand in Nov. 1972 in Washington DC. I couldn't remember his name for the longest time, and no one else in the US seemed to have ever heard of him. Thanks - it's been bothering me that I couldn't remember. Kaite

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:18:29 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Ashokanand Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 23:21:17 (EDT) From: Liz Email: None To: All Subject: Re: Ashokanand Message:

Anyone remember him from Golders Green? I almost got my drip-drip experience when I noticed how fond he was of watches, cameras & other temptations of the Western world. Too bad it took me sooo long. Liz

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:54:26 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gmom Subject: Who travelled with the mahatmas & when? Message:

Another important historical link is who squired the mahatmas around and during what period of time did they do it? Please add any information you have about this and any stories you might have on this topic. Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 17:27:41 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I did ! Message:

in France with 2 of them: Krishnasukanand, and Sulakshna. Lots of other premies did. I'd have plenty of stories to tell. Plus I did take part to lots of events with many more of them, as a translator. Hey Raja Ji's is also one of them, like Sampuranand. What sort of stories you like ? I never took part in meetings with children, except for k sessions, but that was very clean.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:21:45 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Who was the first western woman? Message:

Wasn't she Kathy Somebody? I remember the article in the Divine Times announcing the first Westerners and their new Hindi Names. Each one had a picture....Now we have Ira Woods, Bill Patterson, Arthur Brigham...I think there were two more and one was a woman.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:38:43 (EDT) From: Monmot Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Who was the first western woman? Message:

You might be thinking of Kathy Sullivan, whose name was Pranam Bai. Not sure if she was a mahatma or not, but she lived with M for many years. She was a great speaker, as well as a good person.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:17:41 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? Message:

Dear G's mom, I never got the fasination with the mahatma's names. I have no clue even how taught me the K techniques! I wonder if this a game, like who can name all of the 7 dwarfs, or the reindeer that pull Santa's sled! :) Is there a prize, if so what is it, maybe I'll do some research if I can win a Subaru all wheel drive or a Hummer! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:24:11 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: Robyn Subject: yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit Message:

Things have been so intense around here lately; this is a break from that. The prize? A bronze Baragon? One of those porcelain guru neclaces, how about a swan pendant?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:18:43 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit Message:

Dear G's mom, If those are the prizes then I'm not playing, she said in a snotty brat voice! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:59:12 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: yes, it is Mahatma Trivial Pursuit Message:

I agree. Thanks for this game. I've been laughing all morning. I'll bet if Joan Apter wasn't picked, she probably had a major episode. I guess I should have added for Marolyn--aka Mrs. Tattoo

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 09:04:48 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: gmom Subject: What about M Wood? Message:

Who's playing the role of Monika's husband ....

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:25:16 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Can anyone name all the Mahatmas? Message:

Ira Woods (aka-Mahatma Guru Pujanand Ji) Last known activity: blissful worker for Del Tek

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:01:19 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: Enough Subject: And let's not forget Message:

Marolyn Rawat (aka-Durga Ji, aka-Mom) Last known activity: living the good life in Malibu Lingering question: Did she really think she was ' Doing the Lord'?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:17:31 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Gitanand Message:

Was a mahatma until 75-76, when he was thrown out by prempal for falling for a german girl, who I think he married. I saw in a program in Europin the late 70s. I only just recognised him as he had grown long hair and a mousetache. I tried to speak to him but he almost ran away. He seemed really hurt by prem's 'banishment'.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:11:17 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: The first Westerners Message:

I'll take the Westerners for a thousand Alex...... You remember, the 5 I think who got Indian names? Then they went back to western names later?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:09:10 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: gmom Subject: 1st was Mahatma Saphlanand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:13:56 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Bill Patterson ( Indian name?) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:13:06 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Arthur Brigham (Indian name?) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 07:23:45 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: gmom Subject: Arthur Brigham was Parampremanand Message:

Which I think means something like Swan love bliss. Does param mean swan?

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:13:19 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Arthur Brigham (Indian name?) Message:

Arthur Brigham after being de-mahatmaised got married and as far a sI remember got involved with drugs and spent some in prison.I think in the far east.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:08:06 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Padarthanand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:06:55 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Trevinand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:06:05 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Vijanand (spelling?) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:51:18 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Vijayanand Message:

I met Vijayanad in 1973. He was a nice guy. He had me transferred from the Kalamazoo ashram to Columbus. It was a good move for me. He had a falling out with M in about 1975, I think, and called me after it happened. He was talking about going to Stanford University. Greg Vizzone used to travel with him. Greg was a good guy too.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:04:58 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Fakiranand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:04:09 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Jagdeo Message:

See my Journey

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:02:48 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Parlokanand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:01:56 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Prakesh Bai Message:

I only have good to say about her. She was very kind to me and seemed an ethical person. She had two or three kids who I met as late teens/adults. She left the guru, married a premie and opened an Indian Resturant.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:59:41 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Rajeswar (please fix spelling!) (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 12:47:32 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gmom Subject: Re: Rajeshwar Message:

I received zk from Rajeshwar. I liked him. He had been a judge & talked about his previous profession a lot when he gave satsang.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:16:12 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: He was a judge pre premie? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:24:02 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: gmom Subject: Yes he was a judge pre premie? ... Message:

yes he was an Indian judge. Prempal told him that all judges will have to suffer the karma of what judgements they had inflicted on others. Circa 1980 he was forbidden to give satsang and I was his 'personal security', in that I used to accompany him to programs. He was in very sad state mentally. I can't remember why he was banned from giving satsang....it may have been because he was very upset about the loss of his wife. There was no scandal that I can remember. Ilast saw in India (about 82-83). He took me around Delhi meeting 'important people' because he wanted to show them a 'western devotee'. The last I heard of him was about 83 when he wrote in invite me to his daughter;s wedding. I didn't go.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 01:58:42 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: gmom Subject: Guru Charnanand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:39:52 (EDT) From: microvolt Email: None To: gmom Subject: Gyan Yoganand (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:40:44 (EDT) From: microvolt Email: None To: microvolt Subject: Mohani Bai (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 06:27:46 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: microvolt Subject: Re: Mohani Bai .... Message:

Mohanie Bai fell in love wityh a person in Germany. She lost her Bai status and I was told that she opened a yoga school of her own and that was waiting for prempal to recall her. This was in the mid-70s.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 13:51:37 (EDT) From: microvolt Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Mohani Bai .... Message:

Think you're right. She fell in love with someone and opened a yoga school in Germany. However, she belonged to those who went to India when Bubbelgumji summoned the mahatmas to go there, after Prempal got married. She returned shortly thereafter, fell in love and so on.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 21:34:26 (EDT) From: Angry Man Email: None To: microvolt Subject: What the ffff? Message:

Are you guys stuck in the 70s or what!

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 19:03:53 (EDT) From: Orlando Email: None To: microvolt Subject: recent info about ALL mahatmas Message:

Since earlier this year, there are no longer mahatmas (or instructors, etc) in India. That role does not exist anymore.

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Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:34:15 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Orlando Subject: Orlando... Message:

So what do they call those full time employees of Elan Vital, who go round with videos, talk to the aspirants and ask the premies for money? Anth the Curious

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:16:57 (EDT) From: Tampa Email: None To: Orlando Subject: cruel employer Message:

How nice, rawat fired all the indian instructors. I wonder if he had the same method as he used in the early nineties. Charanand told me in person that at an indian 'event' rawat was angry at the mahatmas and fired them and had them all dumped outside the 'festival' gates. charanand said they all sat out there fired and out of a job and after a while some left-probably pissed at spending thier lives in his service only to be dumped out at thier ages on a lordly whim. After some hours rawat sent someone to collect those at the gate. another guru 'test'? narcissist meglomaniac asshole abuser

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 18:39:27 (EDT) From: Diz Email: None To: All Subject: Building an abuse-resistant culture Message:

This is a long post, trying to outline an idea I’ve been brewing for some time now. It's serious, too - maybe Anth can lighten it up! Several people have pointed out that it’s probably a given that individuals with a proclivity to abuse will be drawn to organisations such as churches, and community groups, where they can have access to victims. That this happens can hardly be blamed on the organisation involved. However, an organisation can do a number of things to build a culture in which such individuals are unlikely to get away with abusive behaviour. How does an organisation build a culture which minimises the possibility of abuse? Although we’ve been talking on this forum about DLM/Elan Vital, this question is equally relevant for any organisation where people are potentially vulnerable - particularly organisations where children are about, or where there are people with reduced ability to look out for themselves, eg people with mental retardation. As a first step, the organisation can be very careful in its selection of those who are to hold positions of power. Selection processes should be open, referees carefully checked. Mechanisms which provide avenues for feedback in relation to those who have been selected for powerful positions can be provided, for example, performance reviews. These could routinely encompass interviews with those in subordinate positions or roles, to see how they’ve found working with that person. Certainly, this may not pick up heavy abuse, if it’s been well-hidden e.g. through threats. But it might give the potential abuser pause if s/he knew that feedback would be routinely solicited. Wider measures may be more powerful. An organisation can develop a culture of review, in which feedback and discussion are encouraged at all levels. This may not be as neat as its more authoritarian alternative, but it increases ownership and means that people feel free to talk about things which aren’t going so well. Potentially, it means the organisation will be stronger, as it is continually able to identify problems in their early stages, and set things right. If open discussion and feedback were the norm, it’s more likely that people would feel free to speak up when something really off the wall, like child abuse, happened. Of course, to develop a culture of this kind, the organisation would need to be responsive to people’s input: where problems were identified, something would need to be done to fix them. We’ve probably all worked in workplaces where there’s much talk about how valued our contributions are, but very little real listening and action from those above when those opinions are voiced. Some ways in which such a culture could be encouraged are: upper management getting to know people at lower levels. Open door policies. Meetings where people get to participate in developing strategic direction, policy and procedures, and in making decisions. Formal reviews which encourage input from staff/members/clients eg through interviews, focus groups, questionnaires, working groups, and which result in recommendations which reflect input, and are acted upon. Those in leadership roles can make it clear that each person is valued, that clear and open communication is valued, and that people are expected to act in a way that respects the rights and needs of others. People can be encouraged to trust their own feelings and intuition: if someone’s doing something to you that feels wrong, it most probably is. This is a standard strategy for helping kids recognise and avoid abusive situations. In more formal terms, an organisation can set up mechanisms through which complaints can be lodged. This needs to be done with care: too often the person to whom complaints are supposed to be made is the very person who is in the position to abuse. Organisations can be creative in designating people to whom problems can be brought - they might include a range of people, at different levels, and of different 'types' - men, women, professionals, non-professionals - the idea being that at least one of them will be someone whom a potential victim would trust. All would need the personal qualities and skills to know how to handle a complaint. All would need the backing of the organisation. All would need to know when it would be appropriate to involve outside authorities, such as the police. Another safeguard which an organisation can employ to guard against extreme attitudes and behaviour, including abuse, is to make sure it is open to scrutiny by the wider community. This might involve things such as holding widely-publicised and open AGMs, inviting outside people on to governance bodies, including community members outside the group on the list of people with whom complaints can be taken, encouraging the use of community-based mediation and facilitation mechanisms when conflicts arose. External review mechanisms are a powerful way to enable an organisation to find and fix its blind spots, including those which foster abuse. All these things are safeguards: they don’t guarantee that abuse won’t happen, but they make it less likely that it will begin, and more likely that it will not continue. So how does Maharaji’s organisation stack up on these kind of safeguards? I haven’t been around for about four years - people are always telling me it’s changed for the better (heard that for 20 years while I was still 'in'). But the Elan Vital I knew did not have any feedback mechanisms, either for individuals, nor for the organisation as a whole. At college, I routinely filled out evaluation forms at the end of each semester’s teaching - not once do I recall anything similar in relation to MJ’s instructors. As to having input into the 'big' issues - such as the direction of the mission, the way in which K was perceived to relate (or not relate) to other aspects of life, or how meditation should be given to people who were interested in it - there was no QUESTION of having input - MJ was the one and only person who determined how these things should be. Open discussion? Any suggestion of criticism, particularly of MJ, was labelled 'negativity' and immediately dismissed. One of the final 'drips' for me was hearing MJ make it clear that if you had a problem with ANYTHING to do with his trip, you should not raise it: his exact words were 'if you have a but, sit on it.' I must say, premies did discuss, amongst themselves, the problems with particular instructors, many of whom were very strange human beings (though I never heard anything about Jagdeo and children). However these concerns could not be raised with MJ, whose instructors they were. There was just no avenue to do this. If I’d been g’s mom, I wouldn’t have known anyone close to MJ to inform. Letters were not answered, who knows if they were read? And anyway, we all knew that letters to MJ should not be 'negative', they should be full of praise and appreciation. There were those question and answer sessions, occasionally. Not that they were discussions - the premies were the beggars, those sunk in confusion, MJ was the one with all the answers. I can remember - and this is in the 90s - MJ waving a bunch of premie questions around, explaining how silly people were to have questions. Anyone who did so had to be very brave: first, everyone could tell how confused you were just by the fact that you asked a question - MJ said people only asked questions if they were confused and not sufficiently in touch with the real thing - the big K. Secondly, you ran the risk of public ridicule. Open door policies? Top management in touch with the people? During the 20 years that I followed MJ, making every effort to make him my primary relationship, I think he spoke to me twice. I have no idea if he knew my name, or anything about me. As someone who DID have issues about some things, I tried for years to get to have some sort of dialogue with him - never happened. There was no way for me to make contact. And no sign from him that he would want me to do so. Acting on feedback? That’s the major issue re Jagdeo and MJ. It seems he had the feedback, but didn’t act. Were there messages that people were valued, that respectful interaction was expected? Sometimes. But at other times, MJ’s line did not encourage premies to treat each other well. I can remember him saying 'you can’t trust the premies'. The whole three-legged stool analogy made it clear that there wasn’t room for other people in the equation - they were really just a distraction. I also remember him talking about how we needed to be opportunists. Maybe he meant taking the opportunity to meditate, but he didn’t make that clear, and many premies seemed to take it to mean they should fight their way to the top of the service ladder, stepping on whoever’s head was handy. There were the times when the whole idea of community was denigrated. And relationships, we all knew, were doomed to failure, as they represented such an imperfect form of love. No, I think any sense of community and respect - and I know it was there at times - was the product of the humanity of the premies themselves, rather than of MJ’s encouragement. Were we encouraged to trust our own feelings and intuition? On the surface, the answer is yes: MJ talked all the time about following your feelings (heart as opposed to mind). But then, he also defined what constituted 'heart'. I, for one, came to profoundly distrust any feeling I had about MJ and his world which was not gratitude, bliss, uncritical love. In the ashram, there were times when I felt very uncomfortable about what was going on, and my intuition told me to get out fast. I stayed because it was agya to stay, and because I 'knew' I should be grateful to have the wonderful opportunity etc etc. I had friends living in premie houses which were much more open, loving, and tolerant places - I longed to be with them, and in retrospect, I would have been much better off. What I learned in the ashram was that my feelings and perceptions were not to be trusted. Later, when things started going wrong for my family, I was again repeatedly told that I wasn’t seeing things right, and that my feelings were incorrect. It has taken me a long time to learn to feel comfortable with my own perceptions and feelings - to apply appropriate levels of questioning to them, but not to judge them by external criteria: eg MJ wants it this way, so it must be right. Formal complaints mechanisms? I never heard a whisper of such a thing. Scrutiny from the wider community? The Elan Vital I knew was a very inward-looking organisation. With the exception of the short DUO phase, there was little involvement in the outside world, except as a source of recruits or dollars. While non-devotees might have been called upon for technical advice, I do not recall their expertise being sought in 'people' areas. The organisation’s books weren’t open; membership of Elan Vital, in a legal sense, was strictly limited; I was never invited to an AGM, let alone their being open to the public; conflicts were supressed, certainly never taken to community-based conflict resolutions mechanisms; the idea of external review was a million miles away from EV culture. The bottom line, to me, is that the kind of culture which encourages the openness in which abuse is unlikely to thrive, is a democratic culture. MJ’s world is authoritarian, anti-democratic at its core. MJ is IT, what he says, goes. I find it amazing, at this distance, that intelligent, liberal-minded people - like me and you - accepted such an authoritarian set-up without question. It could only have been because we believed MJ was the one person who had a right to play the role of an authoritarian ruler - he was the Perfect Master. Premies still believe this. Premies who would be appalled at the idea of dictatorship in any other context, still accept it in Maharaji’s world. Diz

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Date: Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 19:27:30 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Diz Subject: Thanks Diz. Message:

Thanks for that Diz, it's a great post. I printed it out and read it on the train yesterday. I made a couple of marks where I wanted to expand or agree or something, I fished the letter out, but I'm too knackered to remember. You're right. There's nothing whatever funny about the subject Diz. Anth

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 23:57:40 (EDT) From: Roger E. Drek Email: None To: Diz Subject: ***Best of the Forum*** Message:

This is ***Best of the Forum*** at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 21:57:48 (EDT) From: Keith Email: None To: Diz Subject: Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture Message:

One problem Diz, seems to be, that many of us less than perfect (human) beings are psychologically and emotionally inclined towards projecting perfection onto someone or something. God or the Guru are prime images to project onto. Now I am not saying that there is something or someone who is worthy or unworthy of such projections. This I feel is a complex issue. But I would feel to bring it back to myself. Am I worthy of such an image? Or is there perfection within me? Can we not 'abuse ' ourselves? Is there an anti-abuse facilty within a human being? Do we all (or most of us at least) not have a proclivity towards inviting abuse? Is there a culture that does not abuse its citizens? How is it really possible to create and sustain an organisation that is free of abuse? Is not the abuse itself emanating from an imperfect inner condition? Diz, I feel all those mechanisms that you have enunciated that could minimise or eradicate abuse are secondary to the need for each human being to undergo radical transformations. And yet your suggestions as such are possibly significant. Organisations change people generally in a retrogressive way. People can change organisations in a progressive way. Who has the power? And those who have the power....what are their motivations? Good subject but complex.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 09, 1999 at 14:10:05 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Keith Subject: What do you mean. Message:

keith, part of that confused jumble up there seems to be saying that abuse is partly invited by the victim. This is utter shit. We need to be very clear. Sexual abuse of children is wrong. We will not tolerate it. If we hear of anyone doing it, particularly from a child, we should do everything we can to investigate and, if it proves to be true, we should ensure the criminal is brought to justice. Do you agree with me here Keith? It's not a complex subject at all. It's just that your head's full of crap and you can't the abuser for the cult. Get deprogrammed. Think for yourself meathead. Anth the Losing Patience.

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 23:35:57 (EDT) From: Mr D Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Keith Subject: The downward spiral to bewilderment Message:

That's all theory, Keith and the theory doesn't match up to the actual real world. Tell a paedophile that he should look within himself instead of running after young children and you will not get much joy there. But I still believe that the organisations can themselves cause people to abuse others. Look at the Catholic Church. Rules of celebacy are the norm for priests and yet a higher proportion of them (compared with the general population) are found to be touching up choir boys and the like. Why is that? I say it's because they are sexually repressed and since they are denied a normal relationship with an adult, they deviate towards other ways to get sexual pleasure. Religions are repressive and preach that people are not right and that there is something wrong with them, whether it be calling people sinners or Maharaji telling people that they are blind to the truth or ignorant etc, the message is essensially the same; that you're not the full shilling but might be one day if you follow this or practise that etc. Telling people that they're not the full shilling can be a self fullfilling prophesy. People are incredibly prone to suggestion, more so than may be realised. Call someone a sinner and you'll have a bona fide sinner on your hands before long. Tell someone they're confused and you'll have a mental and emotional wreck in a few weeks. These organisations we are talkng about are rife with such negative suggestions to their members and it is endemic in the communication between members. 'Positive suggestion' becomes an activity which is ridiculed and called "ego" and so the downward spiral begins for a person as their former self worth is stripped away and they run headlong into an identity crisis and a life of guilt, fear and repression followed by loneliness and bewilderment of how they became like this. Playing with people's lives can cause incredible suffering and the effects are very far reaching, touching the lives of people not connected to the organisation and damaging people, sometimes for life.

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Date: Tues, Sep 07, 1999 at 02:29:29 (EDT) From: gmom Email: None To: Mr D Subject: What I think... Message:

I do not think celibacy makes them deviants. I think they have deviant sexual impulses that they know are wrong and choose religion as a way to escape responsibility for these impulses. The priest can call it sin, the Mahatma can call it mind. I think some may choose these positions of spiritual power because of the access to victims it provides too. Others may each time vow never again and pray or meditate etc to try to absolve themselves. I just don't think you take the average person and make them celibate and that they would choose to cheat on their vows with kids instead of adults. I am sure there are plenty of adults available to break your vows with.... Just my opinion, not even an educated one.

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 22:10:12 (EDT) From: the Anti Keith Email: None To: Keith Subject: Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture Message:

But I would feel to bring it back to myself. Am I worthy of such an image? Or is there perfection within me? Can we not 'abuse ' ourselves? Of course, Keith, everything comes back to you, you, you. And yeah, I bet you 'abuse ' yourself plenty these days. Isn't that hair growing on the palms of your hands, boy? .

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 20:50:56 (EDT) From: Zac Email: None To: Diz Subject: Re: Building an abuse-resistant culture Message:

Diz- Great Post, but you obviously do not have the right understanding.-) In Maharji's world you must have the correct understanding to hold any position of responsibility (sic) or authority. Now understanding in MJ's world isn't webster-like. It doesn't even mean to stand under, as MJ once proposed. It means tow the party line or get out. Its more of a communistic- totalitarian bullshit phrase reserved for programmed imbeciles. I know this seems harsh but only this special kind of understanding keeps the cult intact and allows people who would normally be outraged to slough off their childrens exposure (knowingly) to a pedophile. Even though it occurred in the past. 'Understanding' like openness, feedback, clarity etc have all been redefined for the premies. They think they know what the words mean so when they hear them it sounds good, but there is nothing of substance behind those words. Just more of the same. For example: 'it's changed.' What a joke. It's kind of like waking up from a bad dream isn't it? ZAC the duped

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 20:44:47 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Diz Subject: ROGER--****BEST OF**** Message:

Diz: I have just finished reading your excellent, incredible post twice. I hope that Roger Drek puts it on the Best of Forum. I need to contemplate all the comments I want to make in response. Your post was not too long. It was fabulous. Thank you so much. Love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 22:52:00 (EDT) From: Gmom Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I second that! Excellent Diz!!!(nt) Message:

nt

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