Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 3
From: Mon, Sep 06, 1999 To: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Jerry -:- Thinking you're stoned -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 00:19:28 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- The Photo-recovery room. -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:17:26 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Re: The Photo-recovery room. -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:38:59 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Well, how about this? -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 02:34:25 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Re: Well, how about this? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:03:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Well, how about this? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:20:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Well, how about this? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:33:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Well, how about this? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:40:30 (EDT)

dick -:- Maharaji Even Picked His Nose. -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:39:20 (EDT)
__ Nosey -:- Everybody was picking their noses -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 03:14:17 (EDT)

Roger E. Drek -:- Belated *Best* - Yellow Tabloid -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 18:10:26 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Derek Bentley -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 01:07:27 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Derek Bentley -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 20:47:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Derek Bentley -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 00:41:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger Costello Drek -:- Oh, that Derek Bentley -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 05:13:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- yup, that's the one... -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:24:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger Vinyl Drek -:- Re: yup, that's the one... -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:20:53 (EDT)
__ Roger Justifies War Drek -:- Re: Belated *Best* - Yellow Tabloid -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 18:30:57 (EDT)

Fly -:- Anth the Cross-Dresser -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:53:24 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Blimey, you had me worried -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 15:28:19 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Blimey, you had me worried -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 06:20:07 (EDT)
__ bb -:- More fraud from url's world -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:35:22 (EDT)
__ Ben Dere don Dat -:- Whoa! Let's not go there! (NT) -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:22:12 (EDT)

Jim -:- Deputy Dog gets INnerressin -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Deputy Dog whimpers and drools on his master's slippers -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 22:53:11 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Deputy Dog gets INnerressin -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:04:52 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- The missing 37,000 -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:43:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: The missing 37,000 -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:07:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- If at first you don't succeed...quit. -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 14:22:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shparticular about who I hang with -:- Point of information -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 18:37:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Prepare for Collagulation Shp. -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:03:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Shpsychological subject -:- NURSE!! I want a glass of water. -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 18:15:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: NURSE!! I want a glass of water. -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 14:32:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Let go of it, already -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 21:09:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- possible grounded dialog here -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:28:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JESUS FUCKING CHRIST -:- Shp, don't you ever use or mention my name again! -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 05:37:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Shp, don't you ever use or mention my name again! -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ J.C. Part II -:- Yeah, I'm coming back alright! -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:06:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Mind Filter -:- All of you who think are Jesus, Lord of the Universe...: YOU ARE BULLSHIT ! -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:25:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Heaven on earth now! -:- Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 08:00:59 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- I dare you to sign this -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:59:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I dare you to fuck off -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:10:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I know! Let's let Shp be the judge! -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:41:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shpeople's court -:- Re: I know! Let's let Shp be the judge! -:- Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 08:18:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Gotcha! -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 21:21:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shpassing thru -:- Re: Gotcha! -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:48:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Gotcha! -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:22:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Reply -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Police -:- Warning Issued! No Right Livelihood Speeches Allowed. (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:11:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Re: Gotcha! -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:11:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: Gotcha! -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:58:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- FREE AT LAST! -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:37:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's a joke, isn't it? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:28:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: That's a joke, isn't it? -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:16:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first... -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 06:00:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first... -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 21:55:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shp -:- Re: This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first... -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:15:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger Bilbo Drek -:- Shp, you're a Gollum-like liar -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:31:37 (EDT)

Nigel -:- The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:47:09 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Really good post -- Roger? -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:36:42 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- It's good, but too many words. Cut a few and it will be perfect. -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:16:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, here's a condensed rewrite. 250 words cut. + minor additions. -:- Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 05:55:14 (EDT)
__ Grace -:- Re: The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:29:33 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:53:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:51:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm -:- Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 00:45:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Higher consciousness -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 00:32:20 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Grace, he said both -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:17:06 (EDT)
__ Seymour -:- Re: The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:06:12 (EDT)
__ __ nigel -:- Re: The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:43:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Seymour -:- Re: The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 17:53:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ nigel -:- Just remembered: Matteus's story... -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 05:12:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's like Kevin Smith's story -:- Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 11:39:54 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: The Illusion of surrendered control -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:10:12 (EDT)
__ __ nigel -:- I disagree... -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:16:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: I disagree... -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:57:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Enough -:- Re: I disagree... -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:53:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Helmet Head -:- Football (OT) -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 10:56:08 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Private support for ex-premies -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:15:34 (EDT)
__ LdM -:- Re: Private support for ex-premies -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 05:01:01 (EDT)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Private support for ex-premies -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:55:10 (EDT)

Shp -:- Oneness or what? (with postscript) -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 15:01:19 (EDT)
__ nigel -:- no such animal... -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:02:14 (EDT)

seymour -:- good times/bad times -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 13:47:28 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Re: good times/bad times -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:17:16 (EDT)
__ Enough -:- Re: good times/bad times -:- Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 13:59:43 (EDT)
__ __ Seymour -:- Enough is Enough -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:08:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Enough is Enough -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 08:07:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Enough is Enough -:- Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:31:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Enough is Enough -:- Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 17:14:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Seymour -:- Re: Enough's as good as a feast -:- Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:51:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Enough's as good as a feast -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:52:27 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 00:19:28 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thinking you're stoned
Message:
I'm watching this movie tonight where this girl steals a bunch of allergy pills off the shelf of a pharamacy and then sells it to teeny boppers, who've never done drugs before, telling them it's ecstacy, and sure enough one of the kids starts to 'feel it'. 'Oh, wow', he says, 'I think I feel it'. 'What's it like?', asks another kid. 'It's like floating, like, hey man, how's the ground down there?' Sure enough, after he says this, the other kid goes, 'I got it! Oh shit, man.' Now he thinks he's stoned too. Then his girlfriend asks him, 'Is it really that cool?' 'Oh man', he says, 'You gotta really try this shit. I'll buy it for you.'

Now, I've actually gone through this myself when I was a kid and I had to laugh when I saw this scene because it brought me back to da daze. Y'know? Then I got to thinking. Is this what Knowledge is like for some people? The ones who are raving about the EXPERIENCE, are they just jerking themselves around about it? I can't say for sure, but I feel right about thinking that it is. They're getting stoned on allergy tablets thinking it's ecstacy.

So, all you guys high on Knowledge, how's the air up there? Ha ha ha...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:17:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The Photo-recovery room.
Message:
Hi Jerry,

My favorite in this vein is the darshan line in front of the life size photo, at some premie festival in Northern England. It was propped up against a chair, with a cushion in front of it. The darshan line filed past and kissed the cushion, premies were passing out (he's everywhere right?) and had to be carried to the 'Photo-recovery room'.

Ainchagladyaaintintathatshitnomore?

Anthlostthespacesaswellastheplot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:38:59 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The Photo-recovery room.
Message:
Ainchagladyaaintintathatshitnomore?

ImostcertainlyamOlly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 02:34:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Well, how about this?
Message:
Jerry,

How about the oft' cited knowledge session coupe de grace of seeing Maharaji, Shri Hans or any one of the other 'Perfect Masters' in the 'light'? Whatever happened to that illusion anyway? Used to be everyone was into it. I know I've mentioned it before but there was that one set of knowledge sessions Tejeshwaranand gave in Nelson, B.C. in '74 the night he gave satsang to the whole hippie-drenched valley telling all that he just then, just that moment, realized that he was with Jesus! You know, like he was one of the apostles or something. Got him really worked up, so much so that he probably forgot for a bit the harem he had waiting for him back in Vancouver. But that's another story.

So Tej gives k to not one, not two but three groups of eagre, thirsty souls. Wow! What energy! Our band drove out to play at that program and boy, I can tell you, the Grace was everywhere.

Anyway, the next morning the reports started flooding in over the hushed, excited reverance in the ashram dining and satsang rooms: more than half the new premies had seen Maharaji or some other Master in the light! God, it was so exciting!

What's really funny is that last summer Gary Ockenden told me that he'd actually taken over from Mahatma Ji for a while, opening third eyes left and right while Mahatma Ji 'rested' for a bit. What Tej was really doing, though, was fucking some 'sister' who later bore his child as a divine momento and wonderful addition to the bustling premie population in the Kootenays.

I'nt that somethin'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:03:35 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Well, how about this?
Message:
Dear Jim,

We need to add Tej to the great soul list. By the way do you know a premie guy in Vancouver called Udo?

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:20:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Well, how about this?
Message:
Yep and sure. Udo's become a big Flax Seed oil maven. Why?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:33:44 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Well, how about this?
Message:
Jim,

Give me your email address and I'll tell you. What's a maven?

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:40:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Well, how about this?
Message:
A maven is an expert.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:39:20 (EDT)
From: dick
Email: dick@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Even Picked His Nose.
Message:
After holding one of his devotional excercises, He would go off into the next room and pick His nose for almost a half hour. Would God need to pick his nose, since He gave the world Kleenex?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 03:14:17 (EDT)
From: Nosey
Email: None
To: dick
Subject: Everybody was picking their noses
Message:
Maybe it was the food we all were eating. The Mahatmas from India would just go at it while giving satsang to a packed hall.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 18:10:26 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Belated *Best* - Yellow Tabloid
Message:
Damn, this Paradise sucks when you create a new post. All the fields are short.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone caught the Yellow Tabloid Journalism in THE Letter thread, but Deputy Dog, who is no longer with us, made it to ***Best of the Forum***. Also included in this ***Best*** are Sir Dave, Jean-Michel, and Jethro.

Link to Yellow Tabloid Journalism

In particular I really liked where Deputy Dog said:

Jean Michel,

Cheesemiester, you printed the letter and it was in invasion of privacy. It seems the Rawats treated her fine. What did she want, advice? My advice is to just surrender and meditate. Relax. Let it be, there will be an answer, let it be. That was the answer.

It was a breach of privacy.

Where Jethro responded with:

'My advice is to just surrender and meditate. Relax. Let it be, there will be an answer, let it be. That was the answer. '

That's right.......just like Derek Bentley's family did.....they just waited and everything was okay!!!!

Has every premie got this problem with dealing with facts?

You have the impertinance to make an issue about 'invasion of privacy'.

Are you as disgusted with prempal for, for example,for breaking promises to ashramees and throwing them out onto the street?

Question to Jethro: Who is/was Derek Bentley?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 01:07:27 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Derek Bentley
Message:
Roger,
Derek Bentley was hung for a murder he did not commit(here in the UK, sometime in the 1950s). His mother and then sister protested for over 40 years, when suddenly the great British justice system pardonned him.

regards Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 20:47:15 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Derek Bentley
Message:
Jethro: Wasn't this the case that ended the death penalty in the UK?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 00:41:04 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Derek Bentley
Message:
Maeianne, As far as I remember, the last lynching in this country was of a woman who killed her lover......by the way in this country a person can still be hanged for steeling a sheep!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 05:13:16 (EDT)
From: Roger Costello Drek
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Oh, that Derek Bentley
Message:
Yeah, Elvis, as in Costello, did that song - might have been Let Him Dangle
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:24:38 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Roger Costello Drek
Subject: yup, that's the one...
Message:
Except it was 'Let 'em Dangle' (on 'Spike, the Beloved Entertainer').

Nige the pedant.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:20:53 (EDT)
From: Roger Vinyl Drek
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: yup, that's the one...
Message:
Yeah, that's what I meant to say. That's about the last album I bought on vinyl. Next time I went to the record shop they were 100% CD. Forced me to upgrade my hardware.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 18:30:57 (EDT)
From: Roger Justifies War Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Belated *Best* - Yellow Tabloid
Message:
I also want to further examine two items of interest to me.

First, is Deputy Dog's statement that echoes his Master, the one who loads up his dog dish everyday, that says:

My advice is to just surrender and meditate. Relax. Let it be, there will be an answer, let it be. That was the answer.

And a statement Maharaji made years ago at a program where, paraphrasing here, that no war could be justified.

This whole philosophy of Let it be is quite confusing to me.

On this Forum and Anything Goes the topic of East Timor has come up. Ok, what should the West do? But, how about a more glaring example like World War II?

While most of Europe had no choice as to getting involved, the U.S. kind of had a choice. Hell, didn't the shit start happenning in the 30's? So, finally the U.S. gets its head out of isolationism and gets in there. Not to say the U.S. single-handedly won the war because there was the valiant and besieged Brits and the various resistance groups like the French. And let's not forget the Russians on the bitter and bloody Eastern Front which was perhaps the turning point for Germany.

But, what if the U.S. had taken the Let it be - the just surrender and meditate inaction mode?

In the worst case scenario there would be a single Jew, gypsy, gay, or any other minority left alive in Europe and we might be speaking a mixture of German and Japanese.

Isn't there a time to pick up your sword and fight, Arjun?

It would seem that the only urgency that exists in Maharaji's world is when there is a cash flow shortage and his lifestyle is endangered. Sell off those wristwatches, Maharaji!

I find after nearly 25 years of having absorbed too much of that alien philosophy that I have been and am susceptible and damaged by the just surrender and meditate crap in my own personal life.

Thank you, Maharaji!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:53:24 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Anth the Cross-Dresser
Message:
Followed one of the links suggested by phreak (cf below) and uncovered this:

'One ex-premie known as AJW, who's story was published on ex-Premies Journeys web page, says that she (sic) 'noticed the constant, unrelenting drive for more funds,' and the insatiable need for finance.'

ref: Article

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 15:28:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Blimey, you had me worried
Message:
Blimey fly, you had me worried then. I thought you'd intercepted an email I sent Robyn (with instructions to forward to Marianne) of me in a lovely little pink number I wore when I did a cute little dance for the master once.

Then my secret would have been out wouldn't it gals?

By the way fly, most Englishmen like to get dressed up as women now and again. Everyone knows that.

Anthia in pink.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 06:20:07 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Blimey, you had me worried
Message:
Dear Anth,
Boy, I did too!!! I thought, I hope Anth doesn't think I sent that picture around. No worries dear, I don't want people to see you in all your drag glory or I might lose my honored position as Miss Anything Goes Babe, summer of '99! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:35:22 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: More fraud from url's world
Message:
So, according to someone, barrett, prem rawat
has 'dropped it's origional eastern relgious practice.'

Well, arti has been transplanted to africa at least
and kissing his feet happened in the late nineties
in numerous countries.

All I can guess that was dropped was the 'charanamrit'
feet water being passed around. But I'll bet that
where they have arti they still do that.

Well, he is still master of life! A short spelling jump
to lord of the universe.

There is no god. THAT is the same. Except him of course.
So no change there either.

Also, it was stated that there is 'NO connection between
what he teaches and the religious background of that
country' -india.

That is of course 100% wrong and fantasy.

Also!
'maharaji only encourages people to experience the
present reality of life now.'

THAT is the type of fraudulent BS the nutcases at
ELK would like to promote.

As you may know, when you go to 'get knowledge',
Belkis wants to know if you have any other relgion.
If you do, no knowledge. Just the facts mam.

Right off the bat the first NON reality you are supposed to
embrace is that p rawat is the master of life.

Hey url, how 'ominous' is that?
Is there no darkness in any of this endless lying
that rawat the lord and his apologists indulge in?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:22:12 (EDT)
From: Ben Dere don Dat
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Whoa! Let's not go there! (NT)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Deputy Dog gets INnerressin
Message:
In a thread below (which I've restarted here because, I don't know about you guys, but I hate having to keep hitting 'view all' all the time), I challenged DD to criticize Maharaji on the assumption that premies just don't do that and thus can clearly be seen to worship Maharaji as a cult leader. Well guess what: DD rose to the occasion and posted this --

Okay,

- I don't think he really understands what it's like to be poor, i.e., the degradation of living in poverty in a lousy neighbourhood, but then again neither do most rich people. Maybe it's an Indian thing.
- He seems to be a little too aloof from your average rank and file premie, maybe he does this reasons of security.
- He never admits to making mistakes. He obvoiusly calls the shots, but when anything goes wrong he never takes responsibility. Maybe he figures this would hurt his credibility. But just once I'd like to hear him say, 'Okay so I screwed up, but I'm doing the best I can.'

DD, would it be fair to say, then, that you think Maharaji lacks empathy, is arrogant (unless, of course, it's a 'security thing') and is a coward? No, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm just following up a bit. The first point -- that he's apparently indifferent to the plight of the poor, smacks of insensitivity, doesn't it? A lack of empathy, in other words? Do I have that right?

And your second point. Doesn't that mean he's arrogant and identified perhaps a bit overmuch with his wealth and all the subservience it can buy?

And the third. Yes, I agree, he's never taken responsibility for fucking up. But then couple that shortcoming with the kind of trust he engendered, you know, 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind', 'Surrender the reigns of your life to me...' ... aren't we talking about a deadly weakness? After all, would you have ever trusted him at all in any way whatsoever if you knew he could be so cowardly?

Now, you also said this:

I also notice character flaws (areas where people don't match up to my expectations) in my co-workers, friends, wife, and kids too, but I don't viciously insult them, and call them fat, slimy hamsters, and the myriad of other absolutely fucking horrible names you regularly call Maharaji. I'm amazed you haven't been sued.

DD,

I moved into this guy's ashram for eight years and tried to dedicate my life to him because he promised me he was the 'Master of Perfection', that he knew what was what and that I could -- indeed, should -- trust him implicitly. I guess 'The harder they come, the harder they fall' pretty much sums it up.

And as for being sued? Ha, what a joke that is. Really, I would completely love that move. Maharaji can't sue anyone because he can't afford to be deposed. End of story.

That's why it's fun and easy to talk about stuff like his mistress, alcoholism and large-scale fraud, graft and tex evasion. He's powerless to do anything. Neat, eh? Yeah, I thought you'd like it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 22:53:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Deputy Dog whimpers and drools on his master's slippers
Message:
Dog,

Funny how ineffective we get when we're forced to talk about our cult leaders, isn't it? All this noise you're making about my 'twisting' your words goes back to this --

Okay,

- I don't think he really understands what it's like to be poor, i.e., the degradation of living in poverty in a lousy neighbourhood, but then again neither do most rich people. Maybe it's an Indian thing.
- He seems to be a little too aloof from your average rank and file premie, maybe he does this reasons of security.
- He never admits to making mistakes. He obviously calls the shots, but when anything goes wrong he never takes responsibility. Maybe he figures this would hurt his credibility. But just once I'd like to hear him say, 'Okay so I screwed up, but I'm doing the best I can.'

So what'd I do? I tried to talk with you. Big mistake, I guess. The 'twisting' you're so exercised about was none other than my paraphrasing your comments and giving you a chance to say if you accepted my doing so and, if not, why:

DD, would it be fair to say, then, that you think Maharaji lacks empathy, is arrogant (unless, of course, it's a 'security thing') and is a coward? No, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm just following up a bit. The first point -- that he's apparently indifferent to the plight of the poor, smacks of insensitivity, doesn't it? A lack of empathy, in other words? Do I have that right?

And your second point. Doesn't that mean he's arrogant and identified perhaps a bit overmuch with his wealth and all the subservience it can buy?

And the third. Yes, I agree, he's never taken responsibility for fucking up. But then couple that shortcoming with the kind of trust he engendered, you know, 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind', 'Surrender the reigns of your life to me...' ... aren't we talking about a deadly weakness? After all, would you have ever trusted him at all in any way whatsoever if you knew he could be so cowardly?

So maybe you thought I was stretching things a bit. Say you thought that someone could be all what you say he is but not insensitive, arrogant and cowardly. Wouldn't the reasonable thing, the only fair thing, to do be to say why? Who knows? Maybe there is some way you can make the case that someone in Maharaji's position who never takes responsibility for his fuck-ups isn't a coward. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. But that's for argument, fella. That's for discussion. I never put words in your mouth. I put them before you. Yours was always to say why they didn't fit -- if you could, that is.

You problem, Dog, is that you're hooped. You know that your third criticism alone (and here I'm careful to only quote you because we all know how desperate you are to wiggle out of this):
He never admits to making mistakes. He obviously calls the shots, but when anything goes wrong he never takes responsibility. Maybe he figures this would hurt his credibility. But just once I'd like to hear him say, 'Okay so I screwed up, but I'm doing the best I can.'

-- that, like it or not, this comment alone is absolutely scathing in its implications. You don't think this amounts to 'COWARD'? Go ahead, tell us all why.

But what about his character and what, if anything, you can do about it? You've also said:

...there ARE ways I wish Maharaji was different. What I said stands, AND Maharaji doesn't have to behave the way I want him to.

Every Master was different. Some would only let people have Knowledge after 10 years of service. Some didn't talk. Some were totally arrogant. Maharaji doesn't have to answer to me or conform to my opinion.

A lot of the accusations against Maharaji endlessly repeated on this site are hearsay. And if M has engaged in large scale fraud, graft, and tax evasion, wouldn't he be in the slammer?

To that I can only say this:

It sounds as if Maharaji's not behaving the way you'd like him to. Is that what you've told him before? It also sounds as if you think it's cool for some 'Masters' to be 'totally arrogant'. How, if at all, does that apply to Puffy? You can't have it both ways, little doggy. You can't jump all over me for reading 'arrogant' in your own comments, then your self suggesting that he well might be exactly that. So which is it? Doyou say Maharaji's arrogant? If not, why even bring it up?

And as for whether or not Maharaji's not being in jail is proof that he's no criminal .... well, that's just being stupid, isn't it? Even Shp could explain how silly your thinking is on this one, couldn't you, Shp?

Finally, you said that you've told him personally a number of times about some of your criticisms. But then you now say that you've sent him some 'respectful' email, nothing 'rude' or anything. What, if you don't mind, did you tell him?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:04:52 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Deputy Dog gets INnerressin
Message:
Jim

You evil little prick. I never said I was a card carrying premie like the ones who post on ELK and there ARE ways I wish Maharaji was different. What I said stands, AND Maharaji doesn't have to behave the way I want him to.

Every Master was different. Some would only let people have Knowledge after 10 years of service. Some didn't talk. Some were totally arrogant. Maharaji doesn't have to answer to me or conform to my opinion.

A lot of the accusations against Maharaji endlessly repeated on this site are hearsay. And if M has engaged in large scale fraud, graft, and tax evasion, wouldn't he be in the slammer?

You know what's really strange Jim? The people on this site actually like Shp more than you. I mean it! Look at the cheerful, upbeat postings he received when he returned to Forum IV, and compare them to the lukewarm, businesslike shit you received. Go back and check if you don't believe me.

No Jim, it's not fun and easy for you to criticise M. It's fun and easy for you to be an evil prick. And I want to congratulate you Jim, you're doing a wonderful job.

Deputy Dog Gone - and I mean it this time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:43:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The missing 37,000
Message:
Dog,

The reason we're nice to shp is because we feel his soul trying to get out, and are trying to deprogramme him and get him out of the cult.

Dog, what's all this 'every master was different' bullshit. You're waffling. That's cos your head is stuffed with garbage guru crap, like 'perfect masters' and 'realising knowledge'.

If you ever make it out of the cult, and join us here in peace and freedom, you'll realise that Jim is one of the most popular nihilistic, finger-pickin', atheistic philosophers on this patch of the hard disk.

Dog, I reckon, in the UK, about 40,000 people received knowledge, and there's about 3 or 4 thousand (including lots of new and 'ust passing through' premies).

So how come none of us 37,000 ever went back?

Anth the realist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:07:36 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The missing 37,000
Message:
AJW,

Dunno! Maybe you didn't 'get' it.

Deputy Dog the doing the best he can.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 14:22:40 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: If at first you don't succeed...quit.
Message:
Hi 'Dog,

I did the best I could too, for about 25 years.

Then I realised, it wasn't a traffic jam at the gates of heaven, it was me and a few other drivers stuck in a dead-end, with nothing but a brick wall before us.

There comes a time Dog, when faith and effort ain't enough.

You've got to start applying a bit of common sense to your predicament.

It's such a relief when you realise what's going on.

take care

Anth who tried too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 18:37:58 (EDT)
From: Shparticular about who I hang with
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Point of information
Message:
' If you ever make it out of the cult, and join us here in peace and freedom, you'll realise that
Jim is one of the most popular nihilistic, finger-pickin', atheistic philosophers on this patch of
the hard disk.' -Anth

I don't know about how Dog feels, but life is not a popularity thing for me. Jim manifests behavior that I would not choose to be around even if I were an ex-premie. It's a person thing, unrelated to Maharaji.

What a person's philsophy is in his head means nothing. For as long as we are here in the material plane, what ultimately matters manifests here. So how Jim treats people is his philosophy, not what his concepts are in his head. Jim is an ego-terrorist. that is his philosophy. If you don't believe me, check the volumes of posts in your archives. Read them with your vibe-o-meter set on 'scrutinize'. It will pop out at you like your morning woody. And, like your morning woody, you will have to deal with it and eliminate the waste material.
As for his finger-pickin', what he does with his fingers is his business, along with his sphincter and his nostrils and his mouth (and his feet).

As for his belief or lack thereof in a divinity, that's entirely personal and intimate, for everyone.

So you like Jim. Great. In trying to sell Jim to others, you may be hurting your greater cause.

More juice please,
Shp the limbo dancer

PS Like I tell my creditors when I have been out of work and am negotiating payments terms with a real collections bitch/bastard...I tell them I am out of work, not stupid or unprofessional. Likewise, I may be in limbo about one thing in my life but otherwise I am fully functional.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:03:54 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Prepare for Collagulation Shp.
Message:
Hi Sandy,

As you're probably aware, this forum is not a place created so premies and ex-premies can do what the hell they like, be rude, nasty and abusive etc. It has a purpose, which is to help people who are leaving a cult.

There's always debate about whether premies should even be allowed to post here, because the forum is for ex-premies, not for premies. Of course there's a grey area, which, in my mind you come in. You're a premie on his way to being an ex.

However, because this is a place for cult members to recover, abuse, satsang, interuptions to threads, and other disrupting posts from premies, are really not helpful.

So people like Jim perform a very useful service here, keeping the premies in order.

In a way Sandy, without the 'forum old guard heavy squad', premies would probably end up being banned altogether, as some of them are offensive enough to get their posts deleted anyway.

So, all is not what it seems here Sandy.

So come on, write your 'Journey', tell us why you left the guru.

You've given me an idea Sandy.

I think I'll write a ten point check box to help you see how far out the cult you are.

It will have questions like,

'Do you meditate every day?'

'Do you go to a video at least once a week?'

'Do you give 10% of your salary?'

'Do you pay a standing order to Elan Vital?'

etc.

I'm sure you get the picture.

Take care and prepare for collagulation,

Anth the Drip

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 18:15:28 (EDT)
From: Shpsychological subject
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: NURSE!! I want a glass of water.
Message:
The reason we're nice to shp is because we feel his soul trying to get out, and are trying to
deprogramme him and get him out of the cult.

>So Anth, does that mean that if I left 'the cult', you wouldn't be nice to me anymore? hohoho
My soul is not so much trying to get out as it is tired, disillusioned and saddened by this whole paradox. Getting out or staying in is a state of mind. Right now I am in limbo about this, neither here nor there. That's an OK place to be here and now, and I can still be grateful to be alive and love my life and take care of business, kiss my wife, love my kids, pet the dog, etc

Ya know, I used to say that 'nothing surprises me anymore', then I got an earful of Jag and so on, and the rollercoaster starts to slowly ratchet up the sickening slope all over again. Practice and it will go away? I don't think so, not this time.

It's always a pleasure, Anth,
Shp the open-minded (could you put the top of my skull back on? It's drafty in here)

PS Can I put this gator clamp on my other ear now? This one is burning a little from the electricity...
heeheehohohaha, and turn up the juice, for real.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 14:32:54 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Shpsychological subject
Subject: Re: NURSE!! I want a glass of water.
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Of course I'll be nice to you when you get out of the cult.

And I'm not really trying to deprogramme you. I don't know what deprogramming really means, and when I realised that the emporer was naked, it seemed to happen all by itself, not by somebody telling me.

Sandy, you're going to love it when you get out. Life gets amplified, because you're not trying to run away from it 'inside' all the time.

And you don't have to put your thoughts and ideas and decisions through the 'guru mincer' before digesting them, or spitting them out.

take care,

nurse anth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 21:09:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shpsychological subject
Subject: Let go of it, already
Message:
Your problem, Sandy, is your belief that there are these guys walking around on the planet who are God-realized souls who's sole purpose is to bring you up to their level.
There's no such beast. There's just the meek in spirit and the grandiose who take advantage of them.

I wish for once you could see that and just say 'fuck this'. Better yet, say 'Fuck Maharaji'. It will help break the spell. And you've got good reason to say 'Fuck Maharaji'. Do you ever think you're going to get a response from him concerning Jagdeo? I don't. Fuck him for letting you hang like this. Wouldn't you agree? Doesn't that piss you off? Yes? No?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:28:19 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: possible grounded dialog here
Message:
'There's just the meek in spirit and the grandiose who take advantage
of them.' -Jerry

Jer, I find it interesting and ironic that the 'meek in spirit' you refer to were also referred to by one of those guys who you say doesn't exit, who said that the meek (meaning humble, teachable, coachable)
shall inherit the earth as well as the kingdom of heaven (means truth in Greek). Doesn't sound like a rip-off to me. Sounds like that one, Jesus the Christ, was pretty much on the side of the meek and boosted them when and whereever he could.

Jer: Do you ever think you're going to get a response from him concerning Jagdeo?

Me: At this point, probably not.

Jer: Fuck him for letting you hang like this. Wouldn't you agree?

Me: Nothing quite that strong. But I am not thrilled to be summarily blown off by anyone. I have tended to give Maharaji alot of 'latitude' as mentioned in earlier posts, giving him the authority due to someone of his advertised stature. Now I have to either absorb and accept the realization that the Lord's (that is who I accepted him to be...I would not have just followed another guru) entourage included at least one child molestor who went undetected and/or unbridled for years and now it's all in the hands of lawyers, no comfort for the victims from anyone in the high command in all this time...
or make some major changes in my belief system.

Jer: Doesn't that piss you off? Yes? No?

Me: Yes to being kept hanging, but no to the idea of stewing about it indefinitely. It says somewhere in the Bible that you can 'boldly approach the Throne of Grace, and ask what you will of He who upbraideth not, and all the good stuff will flow. That is my experience with the practice Knowledge itself, but not with Maharaji directly, this case in point.

Thank you for your directness without the bad vibes. If I did not want to get to the root of the matter,
I would not be here. This is the only place where it's being discussed that I know of, so here I am.
No hidden agendas.

Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 05:37:12 (EDT)
From: JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, don't you ever use or mention my name again!
Message:
And if you ever do I'm going to get that answer from your damn guru, the bogus Lord, and you probably won't like it and your little stupid holier than thou world is going to be in the dumper!

Capiche?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:00:45 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JESUS the CHRIST
Subject: Re: Shp, don't you ever use or mention my name again!
Message:
Dear Jesus,

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Come quickly, please.
What youl lived and stood for is what I was always looking for.
Thank you for everything.

Shpatiently awaiting your return, however you manifest.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:06:43 (EDT)
From: J.C. Part II
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Yeah, I'm coming back alright!
Message:
You'd better believe I'm coming back, planning a comeback.

And you're the first one I'm going be looking for and I'm going to send you straight to a special hell where you will be a wise and righteous God to a bunch of recalcitrant wise guys like you are now. Have fun!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:25:08 (EDT)
From: The Mind Filter
Email: Uranus Orbital Boulevard
To: J.C. Part II
Subject: All of you who think are Jesus, Lord of the Universe...: YOU ARE BULLSHIT !
Message:
BULLSHIT>

First : Jesus WAS Jesus !
Anyone even thinking he/she ? is Jesus, Lord of the Universe...is a TOTAL IGNORANT IDIOT !
The 'Highest' state to be on this Earth is SIMPLY TO BE ONLY A HUMAN BEEN !
To all egos : you will destroy YOURSELF IN A SHAME WAY !
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 08:00:59 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: JC impersonator
Subject: Heaven on earth now!
Message:
You'd better believe I'm coming back, planning a comeback.

And you're the first one I'm going be looking for and I'm going to send you straight to a special hell where you will be a wise and righteous God to a bunch of recalcitrant wise guys like you are now. Have fun!

>Hey, you ain't Jesus!
Is it OK to impersonate the Lord and put out threats of hell on this site?
I thought you were fighting someone who you say is allegedly doing the same thing...
Since I am already here and have been for awhile, I think we can count that for time served.
(No offense to the gentle people who also happen to be here.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 22:59:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I dare you to sign this
Message:
Dog,

You criticized Maharaji and I tried to confirm your comments. You freaked. Tell me, Dog, are you free enough to let Maharaji know which one of his Grateful Appreciators thinks he's the asshole you described? Of course not. You're nervous that you've even said what you did, aren't you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:10:29 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I dare you to fuck off
Message:
Jim, you are one angry little prick,

You tried to 'confirm' my comments. Ha! You twisted my comments beyond recognition to suit your own evil ends.
And I freaked did I? I have let Maharaji know what I think on more than one occasion. But I'm so nervous that I even said what I did, I was tossing and turning all night. NOT!

You see Jim I feel I can criticise Maharaji and still be a premie. It's not all or nothing for me. I don't have to see eye to eye with Maharaji on everything. I like to speak my mind and be honest about my feelings (realizing of course that sometimes you have to be polite).

I am nervous about you though Jim. You are one angry little man. What the fuck is it with you anyway? Is it some kind of DNA thing? Have you considered therapy?

So please don't pull any more of that courtroom shit on me. This ain't no fucking courtroom, and I don't like you, and I don't want to have any more to do with you. So fuck off, you wiper of other people's bottoms.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:41:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I know! Let's let Shp be the judge!
Message:
Deputy Dog: Okay,

- I don't think he really understands what it's like to be poor, i.e., the degradation of living in poverty in a lousy neighbourhood, but then again neither do most rich people. Maybe it's an Indian thing.
- He seems to be a little too aloof from your average rank and file premie, maybe he does this reasons of security.
- He never admits to making mistakes. He obvoiusly calls the shots, but when anything goes wrong he never takes responsibility. Maybe he figures this would hurt his credibility. But just once I'd like to hear him say, 'Okay so I screwed up, but I'm doing the best I can.'

Don't forget this guy even says he's told Maharaji as much to his face. That must explain why he's anonymous, right? Tell me, Shp, do you believe him?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 08:18:15 (EDT)
From: Shpeople's court
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I know! Let's let Shp be the judge!
Message:
America's a great country.
We have this concept of innocent until proven guilty.
I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt until they show their true colors.
If DD hasn't lied before, there is no reason to believe he is now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 21:21:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Gotcha!
Message:
Dog,

You call me angry? Funny.

Listen, fella, I did not 'twist [your] comments beyond recognition'. Don't be absurd. Everything you said about him speaks for itself. Why argue the point? You've already said it. Thanks.

And, you know what? I think you're a bald-faced liar. Sure, I don't know for sure but I'm definitely comfortable calling you one. I say there's no way in a million years you told Maharaji that 'once, just once, it'd be nice to hear him admit he's wrong about something'. Now that's absurd beyond question.

No, you're just some anonymous, lying little cult member. My, my, my, where can I join?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:48:40 (EDT)
From: Shpassing thru
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Gotcha!
Message:
Jim,

I have heard Maharaji with my own ears admit within the last few years that he was wrong about things sometimes, I can't quite remember exactly what, but his admission deifinitely made a lasting impression on me. I also heard him say years ago that the Knowledge is perfect, not him. You heard that too, I bet. This does not mean that I am not in a state of transition myself about the whole relationship, but this point about admitting mistakes is ludricrous. Of course he has, for years.
On stage, on tapes. Maybe you weren't listening
.
So what's all the heat about? Rough day at the office? Did you have to defend someone who you got the creeps from again? Did you get somebody off who your conscience bothered you about?
Have another drink and skewer somebody else, you'll pass out soon.

Although my heart is on fire, my eyes are as cold as ashes. Don't even bother wasting a keystroke on me, for it will truly be wasted energy. Save it for the others who don't know you as well as I do yet.

Cult, shmult! Easy to lambast groups. Harder to sort with individuals. Try it sometime.
Gerry's got some great information for you which may help you to become more effective if you aren't attached to your 'bastard and loving it' identity you've built around your own injured and hungry heart.
You are just like the rest of us, but you think you are better. Different, yes. Better, no.

Shp with bells on, and they toll for you

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:22:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shpassing thru
Subject: Re: Gotcha!
Message:
So what's all the heat about? Rough day at the office? Did you have to defend someone who you got the creeps from again?

And what's with you these days, Shp? Is it a little hard to be an unemployable, middle-aged new age loser who can't think straight, who's bogged down in so much stupid, spiritual garbage that even other New Agers aren't interested in hiring? Hm? What's the problem, loser. We can talk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:29:37 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply
Message:
Actually I'm doing quite fine.
Just got back from Farm Aid -
On my way to NYC to shoot some video -
When you help Mom Nature you get a tailwind.
Right livlihood is worth looking into, Jim.
It's pretty obvious you hate what you do
But you do it well based on their values
Not yours.
We can talk
I used to be a headhunter.
Thinking career change?
I can help.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:11:22 (EDT)
From: Forum Police
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Warning Issued! No Right Livelihood Speeches Allowed. (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:11:05 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Shpassing thru
Subject: Re: Gotcha!
Message:
Shp,

What about your comments about the 'bitches/bastards' trying to collect your overdue bills? Debts you legitimately contracted for and now are not making good on your end? Aren't they also just people trying to make a living, with kids, worries,stress and troubles like the rest of us? Maybe if you didn't see them as bastards they would have a little more sympathy for your case.

Please don't prostitute my 'new found feelings' to further your vendetta against Jim and to your bolster your cult connections with the grifter guru Maharaji. I'm still quite capable of righteous anger and I don't plan on hanging on the cross with you and your Jesus fantasies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 23:58:15 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Re: Gotcha!
Message:
Shp,

What about your comments about the 'bitches/bastards' trying to collect your overdue bills? Debts you legitimately contracted for and now are not making good on your end? Aren't they also just people trying to make a living, with kids, worries,stress and troubles like the rest of us? Maybe if you didn't see them as bastards they would have a little more sympathy for your case.

> Perhaps you have never fallen on hard times. You know, you are rolling along, making a pretty good living, making and spending, racking up some debt, and then bang! Through no fault of your own, you are out of work. Then all the shit starts to hit the fan and you are persona non grata to all the same companies who gave you credit. Not all, but most folks in that industry, from my experience are really nasty people who assume you must be a scumbag if you are in debt, from past experience with most other debtors they have had to chase down. That's who I was talking about. I don't wish that kind of treatment on anyone. Of course every now and then I run into someone who has the knack of being kind and doing their often unpleant job too.

Please don't prostitute my 'new found feelings' to further your vendetta against Jim and to your bolster your cult connections with the grifter guru Maharaji. I'm still quite capable of righteous anger and I don't plan on hanging on the cross with you and your Jesus fantasies.

>I have no vendetta against Jim. I also don't have any desire to 'bolster my cult connections....etc'
As for hanging on the cross and Jesus fantasies, what are you talking about?
We are all capable of righteous anger.
I prefer righteous brotherhood.

Shp

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 22:37:11 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: FREE AT LAST!
Message:
Jim,

There is an e-mail address on one of the premie sites where you can say whatever you want to Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:28:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's a joke, isn't it?
Message:
There is an e-mail address on one of the premie sites where you can say whatever you want to Maharaji.

Dog,

Wha'ts your point? Are you saying that you would be willing to email Maharaji under your own name and tell him he suffers from the faults and weaknesses you've described? Of course not. He's your cult leader, isn't he?

By the way, I HAVE emailed him a few times there. Guess whether or not he ever replied. Go ahead, guess.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:16:27 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That's a joke, isn't it?
Message:
Jim,

I answer ALL of your questions, you ignore mine. I asked you a question earlier and you didn't answer it. Please answer it now. Have you ever considered therapy?

Deputy Dog

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 06:00:07 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first...
Message:
Fuck you, Shp!
And fuck you too, Deputy Dog!

You are both lying pieces of shit always trying to slime your way out of some statement that you made when somebody points out the flaws in your logic, facts, assumptions, or whatever.

Deputy Dog, if Jim quoted you saying what you did then I'd say that he didn't twist your words. Pretty obvious to me.

And, Shp, I've only been out of the cult for a little while and I sure as hell don't remember Maharaji saying that he was wrong about the big stuff. Prove it.

Anyway, didn't you both say that you were gone, like out of here? What? You can't even follow your own orders? Who the hell is running your life? Please, please get the hell out of here.

Shp, you're a pathological liar who somehow thinks he is a great learned saint. Man, your little act just stinks to high heaven. It's downright sickening. It's total bullshit and you need to grow up and can it. I've never heard so much crap coming out of one person.

Sorry boyz, I have no patience for either one of you. And in general, I'd say that most people simply don't like liars or people who are constantly altering what they are saying because somebody trapped them in their little lie.

I detest the both of you contemptible liars!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 21:55:37 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first...
Message:
Roger,

I did e-mail M and told him what was on my mind. Jim twisted my words to the extent that I e-mailed M and called him an insensitive coward and an asshole or something like that. I did not call M that, but I was critical. That's what I meant by Jim's twisting my words. I was critical but not rude.

I told the TRUTH when Jim asked me if I had the guts to identify a character flaw I saw in M. I said yes and identified three. I could have lied, said no, and given the party line.

What seems to annoy everyone here is that I can be critical of M and still be a premie.

So take you self righteous bullshit and fuck off, you la-di-dah poofta.

Deputy Dog

If anything I'm too honest. Besides you can't kick out Shp. People like him more than Jim.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:15:30 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: This whole Thread is going ***Best***, but first...
Message:
Roger,

Show me where I lied.
You inserted 'the big stuff' into the thing about Maharaji saying he never made a mistake after the fact. This is my concern now as well as yours, the 'big stuff'. That is why I am here. For the record, I was just telling this thread that I have heard him say something that someone else said they never did,
namely that he is wrong on occasion. I share the frustration and pissedoffness of many here about Jag, etc., and was being accurate for the record.

Take a look at it, here I come to this site, saying things like I am in limbo about Maharaji and so on, being critical aboutr how the Jag thing was handled, etc. We both know EV probably has 'observers' keeping an eye over here. My name is probably mud by now among the elite. If I cared about all that, I'd had been too pressured or scared to post here. Got it?

I don't like you either, but that's not what the issue is, or is it? I thought we were talking about something else. Just because you publish and have the corner on sarcasm etc in this neck of the woods, doesn't make you right or true. You can say it in 100 point and day-glow, it doesn't make you be right. I don't lie.

May your day be filled with what makes you happy, so I guess it's may your day be filled with drek.

Please make sure this post gets in there with the rest of the thread please. You said the whole thread is going, so don't make a liar out of yourself and edit anything, OK?

Shprobably many bad habits, but not a liar

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 15:31:37 (EDT)
From: Roger Bilbo Drek
Email: None
To: Shp
Subject: Shp, you're a Gollum-like liar
Message:
You're always lying, Shp. Just like Gollum you alter your words to suit your agenda as needed. Actually, the primary purpose of you agenda is to make sure that the persona that you project is a wise and righteous one with a new age flavor.

Speaking for those you are tired of you, I'd say that that is what is so annoying about you. That new age wise guy stuff went out in the 80's under the Reagan/Thatcher reign where greed was king. We have that much to thank them for.

Can't you just drop, nay, let go of that cheesy spiritual trip and just be a mortal human being. You can still enjoy taking the time to stop and smell the flowers, but just don't tell us about it. It's not like we are all living in dark little cubicles seeing life only through our CRT (Cathode Ray Tube.)

It's ok to be angry and not like people. It's called honesty. Chuck those platform sandals and walk the earth like the rest of us.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:47:09 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
(or 'belching in the name of the Lord'.)

Hi gang. Armchair theory time again. Just an idea based on some hypnosis research I am involved in, but which also relates to paranormal belief studies - not to mention one gallant investigator's nine year experience of cult membership. (Hmm, what a price for first-hand raw data...)

A few years ago the psychologist Susan Blackmore suggested a framework for investigating allegedly paranormal experience which were, in fact, no more than normal experiences interpreted as paranormal. She called them 'Illusions of causality', and identified five types: illusions of memory; illusions of form; illusions of connectness; illusions of pattern and randomness and the illusion of control.

(email me if you'd like further references)

['The illusion of control' describes a person's perceived internal control over external phenomena where personal control is impossible. In one study, office workers were sold lottery tickets in two experimental conditions: in one they chose their own ticket, in the other they had the ticket allocated to them. It was found that in the 'choice' condition, people were significantly less willing to resell the ticket - the implication here being that the act of choosing was felt by the purchaser to improve the chances of winning. Paranormal believers are more prone to this illusion than non-believers. Susan Blackmore ran an experiment using a computerised coin-tossing game, designed such that the outcome of a series of coin-flips was sometimes - unknown to the player - in their control, and sometimes beyond their control. Believers had a more pronounced tendency to feel they were in control of purely random outcomes.]

You don't have to be a paranormal believer to experience the illusion of control. Whenever I watch a televised football match involving the world's most talented football team (MUFC), I am reluctant to leave the room to fetch a celebratory vintage from the cellar - not because I might miss something, but because I have this feeling that without my personal willpower psyching things along and keeping the ball in the opponents' half of the field, the lads might fall apart and start letting goals in...

Blackmore's five categories between them provide alternative explanations for just about every reported paranormal effect (IMO). Except she has left one out:

The Illusion of Surrendered Control.

This is the inverse of the Illusion of Control. The believer experiences the outcomes of their own actions as being the work of a mysterious external force or higher power.

If you ever took part in a seance where messages came through, you will know this is a compelling effect. Although the assembled parties are collectively responsible for moving the wine glass around the table, and for even selecting letters to spell out words, each person feels they are merely following the glass rather than pushing it.

Or take the popularity of pendulums among dowsers and other new-age practitioners. Notice how the weight is always small and the thread is short, enabling dramatic movements in the weight to occur through the slightest twitch of a finger. Not only will the witness be impressed but the practioner is also convinced there must be an outside force at work.

In the classic hypnotic setting, 'susceptible' people act out the role of surrendering their willpower to the hypnotist. There is no evidence for believing that the hypnotic subject at any point genuinely loses personal volition - though many subjects believe this to be the case simply through imagining this to be the case. The illusion of surrendered control again.

Does any of this ring any bells?

Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!' I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that every one of the Living Perfect Fraudster's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated often in various forms of words. You make the effort; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction... This was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru's conscience is as clean as new shirt on Sunday).

Maharaji's kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere - Maharaji's World probably - by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). This is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist...

As a premie - and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace.

But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. (Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that one step and...Thank you, Lord...)

In most cases, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have limited control of our nervous systems. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to improve the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of the aforementioned special vintage...) Similarly, practicing the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. We are easily persuaded that experiences beyond our obvious control are not of our own making.

[My late brother Peter had a party trick as a teenager. He would ingest three teaspoons of bicarbonate of soda. The alkali reacted with the hydrochloric acid in his stomach to produce a surfeit of carbon dioxide. He would then exhale said gas in a machine-gun volley of belches. Better still, he could talk in belches, sounding like Kermit, or that actor Jack whatsisname after the voice-box implant. Fixty-six syllables was his record. Set to music this would give you one full verse of 'Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord' (plus 'Glory, glory, halle...')

Peter never saw the glory of the coming of the Lord - though I tried my best. The last time I spoke to him in a hospital ward with family gathered around the bed, I slipped some useful satsang into the conversation. It seemed important at the time. Having a premie in the family confers a blessing for five generations in either direction - didn't you know? Thought it might help Peter on his way to understand that a living, perfect, alcoholic, mutlimillionaire cult leader in Malibu was the main reason he had walked the planet for twenty-two years...]

Back to the illusion of surrendered control... Can we test the theory? There are certainly testable hypotheses here: we might expect premies to be more susceptible to the illusion than non-premies. Thus, premies will be more susceptible to both the new-age pendulum and ouija board effects, as well as being more likely to report loss of volition during hypnosis than non-premies.

The trouble is, I need some research volunteers, but am only acquainted with non-premies nowadays. Perhaps URL or Mel would like to step forward...

Or should I advertise for particpants on the ELK site?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:36:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Really good post -- Roger?
Message:
Thanks as usual, Nigel, for thinking through this so clearly. If Roger ever starts an scientific and psychological speculation section about M & K you should get a tenured chair there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:16:31 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's good, but too many words. Cut a few and it will be perfect.
Message:
Ok, ok, ok.

But first Jim what are these rumors about you being a member of the Banditos or was that Los Tostados? Did you attain the MC merit badge and sew it to your sash?

Back in my saloon days I was hanging out and this biker from the Banditos or something was talking about a club ride to Toronto or somewhere and he mentioned how a small group of the pack split off in another direction with the guns in order to avoid detection.

Everybody's packing... (sung to 'EVERYBODY'S TALKIN'', words and music by Fred Neil, sung by Harry Nilsson)

Did you have a zippy Honda 90?

***Best of the Forum***

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 16, 1999 at 05:55:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Ok, here's a condensed rewrite. 250 words cut. + minor additions.
Message:
A few years ago the psychologist Susan Blackmore suggested a framework for investigating allegedly paranormal experience which were, in fact, no more than normal experiences interpreted as paranormal. She called them 'Illusions of causality', and identified five types: illusions of memory; illusions of form; illusions of connectness; illusions of pattern and randomness and the illusion of control.

'The illusion of control' describes a person's perceived internal control over external phenomena where personal control is impossible. For example, people are more reluctant to resell a numbered lottery ticket if they have personally chosen it, than if they have one allocated at random. They feel that by making the choice they are influencing the outcome. Similarly, when watching, say, a sporting event it is sometimes hard to resist the feeling that our willpower alone - or that of the crowd - can influence the result. Susan Blackmore ran an experiment using a computerised coin-tossing game, designed such that the outcome of a series of coin-flips was sometimes - unknown to the player - in their control, and sometimes beyond their control. Believers had a more pronounced tendency to feel they were in control of purely random outcomes. Blackmore's five categories of illusion between them provide alternative explanations for just about every reported paranormal effect (IMO).

Except she has left one out: The Illusion of Surrendered Control.

This is the opposite of the Illusion of Control. The believer experiences the outcomes of their own actions to be the work of a mysterious external force or higher power. If you ever took part in a seance where messages came through, you will know this is a compelling effect. Although the assembled parties are collectively responsible for moving the wine glass around the table, and for even selecting letters to spell out words, each person feels they are merely following the glass rather than pushing it. Or take the popularity of pendulums among dowsers and other new-age practitioners. Notice how the weight is always small and the thread is short, enabling dramatic movements in the weight to occur through the slightest twitch of a finger. Not only will the witness be impressed but the practioner is also convinced there must be an outside agency at work.

In the classic hypnotic setting, 'susceptible' people act out the role of surrendering their willpower to the hypnotist. There is no evidence for believing that the hypnotic subject at any point genuinely loses personal volition - though many subjects believe this to be the case simply through imagining this to be the case. The illusion of surrendered control again.

Does any of this ring any bells?

Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!' It is no exaggeration to say that every one of the Living Perfect Fraudster's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated often in various forms of words. You make the effort; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction... This was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru's conscience is as clean as new shirt on Sunday).

Maharaji's kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). This is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist...

As a premie - and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace. What else is the aspirant process for?

But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that one step and...Thank you, Lord... (This last example was a little different in that it involved outcomes that were external to the premie, but nonetheless calls in the same flawed causal attributions.) Some initiators were especially susceptible: David Smith, it has been reported, at times interpreted his own thoughts as messages from Maharaji, provided he was remembering Holy Name at the time. I also remember a woman initiator saying that she didn't actually choose which aspirants should receive Knowledge. She would merely meditate whilst they prostrated themselves on the carpet at the knowledge session. If they were ready 'it was like a light coming on', and she 'just knew' it was Maharaji telling her who should be chosen.

In most cases, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have limited control or understanding of our nervous systems and brain processes. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to improve the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of whatever gets you through the night). Similarly, practicing the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. We are easily persuaded that experiences beyond our obvious, direct control are not of our own making.

Can we test the theory? There are certainly testable hypotheses here: we might expect premies to be more susceptible to the illusion than non-premies, or exes. Thus, premies will be more susceptible to both the new-age pendulum and ouija board effects, as well as being more likely to report loss of volition during hypnosis than non-premies.

The trouble is, I need some research volunteers, but am only acquainted with non-premies nowadays. Perhaps URL or Mel would like to step forward...

Or should I advertise for particpants on the ELK site?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:29:33 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
Nigel,

You said that Maharaji said the Experience is not elicited due to practice of those techniques but is a gift of Grace. This is not the way I learned it, who told you this? I have heard many satsangs re: cause of the experience and it has always been said that the experience is the life force inside that was with you since you were born (and before, but that's another subject). The analogy I always think of is one Guru Maharaji said in the mid 80's (I think) that we should think of the the experience like electricity and the body like an outlet in the wall and the techniques our way to plug into the outlet and get the electricity. He said that it is always available and that every human being had the potential to plug into it, just didn't know how. We who have Knowlege could chose to plug in or not, but the potential is there 24/7 just like the outlet on the wall. It does no good by itself, you have to chose to use what's there and it IS in your control. He said our life force is the energy inside we can tap in to and which is the cause of the experience during the techniques and I don't recall him saying he had anything to do with the experience, he just inspired people to 'plug in', which I see as a valuable role if one enjoys the experience (I know that is a debate in itself). Anyway, this explanation made sense to me as a think of raw energy having the potential to emit light, cause vibration, make a buzzing sound. I guess I bought into the physics of it. (I know several of you did not agree with the Tao of Physics writer).

And besides this, what did he then say the point of practicing the techniques was?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 16:53:44 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm
Message:
Hi Grace,
Clearly he stated over and over that HE gave us 'that
experience' and that he wanted to give us 'that
experience' but we were always 'three steps away' or
not surrendered enough, or failing in some way.

And that meditation was not even the point!
It was only there to keep our mind busy while we were
supposed to be longing for HIM and pursueing devotion
only to him. Involvements with family and friends
were just us not surrendering and not to be indulged in.

You were told 'don't try to score points in this world'
and only those that were following him were going
to be saved and even those of us at the festivals
still had the threat that maybe if we didnt surrender
properly, after we die, maharaji would have to leave us
at the gate.

Check out JM's web site for -some- of his I am lord
domination.

The point of the techniques were to for us to be
driven to the
insane viewpoint of his wife marolyn in her letter.

A lot of people feel thier breath and by the way,
rawat has discouraged many times people from feeling
thier breath but only doing the techniques for 15
minutes and in order.

He told the instructors that they were 'scratching
at a 900 foot thick wall of steel' and they could
only have that experience if HE gave it to them.
A view that he also said at many programs.

Ira Woods was thanking rawat because he was finally
seeing that blurry effect from pushing your finger
at your eye and rawat said 'that is the light of the mind'
thereby keeping Ira and anyone else from ever hearing
approval for thier efforts.

It is such a non reality. NO ONE here at this forum
can or has made any claims to have actually
seen anything. That is not the hidden door to -god-.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 16:51:41 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm
Message:
It may not be the hidden door to god but I still believe I have experienced higher consciousness from meditation. I know there's big disagreement on this issue, but for me Knowledge meditation techniques 'worked' in this way, whether M says he had anything to do with it or not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 00:45:43 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: The illusion of meditation as the goal of dlm
Message:
Hi Grace,
Didnt mean to make that last comment actually.
The point i was sticking too before that was
how How m had tied up himself into our efforts and
the 'goal'.

Jerry has a couple points about the meditation issue
just below.

It is not easy to deal with this stuff and I
hope you are doing ok with it all.
I read your first post and I know it was hard for me
to stop making excuses for all the things I had
previously known about but couldnt face.

An awful lot of people have had to go through
the meltdown. Imagine all the istructors that finally
left and thier level of belief and all the many
people who gave all thier money because of p rawats
claims to be the lord god almighty.

Many of those people must be devastated.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 00:32:20 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Higher consciousness
Message:
Hi Grace,

When you say 'higher consciousness', do you mean a sharper, keener awareness, without mental confusion and emotional distress? Or are you talking about transcending the material plane and entering a spiritual dimension not ordinarily accessible, a mystical state?

For me, I know when I have a relaxed focus on something, say, just enjoying sunlight and a cool breeze on a sunny day, or feeling drawn to the sight and sound of waves crashing at the beach, I feel what I would call 'higher consciousness'. It's not spiritual. It's just a clearer more calm state of mind. Is that what you're talking about? If so, I wish meditaion could do that for me. I believe that if I had learned it from less of an asshole, (like the 'perfect master' who for some reason needed me to dedicate my life to him before he would teach me), that maybe it would have.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:17:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Grace, he said both
Message:
You said that Maharaji said the Experience is not elicited due to practice of those techniques but is a gift of Grace. This is not the way I learned it, who told you this?

Grace,

M's clearly said both a number of times. Like usual, he blabs and blabs, always goes for the easy, sanctimonious moment, and who's going to contradict him or, better, point out how he's contradicting himself?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:06:12 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
Nigel,
How did you know?
You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. (Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that one step and...Thank you, Lord...)

Great post, your theory sounds plausible and I will look out for Susan Blackmore when next in a bookshop. I was sorry to hear about your brother but your feelings also reminded me of similar instances...
The last time I spoke to him in a hospital ward with family gathered around the bed, I slipped some useful satsang into the conversation. It seemed important at the time.
What do you think the psychology of this mental state is? I know that it is partly through wanting to share something you have discovered with someone you love and who you think will benefit from it. However there is another weird side that makes you detached and never really there with the people you are trying to communicate with - also there is a sense of duty in spreading the word. I can forgive myself for wanting to 'pass it on' as we old hippies used to say but not for trying to change people's lives without really knowing what I was doing or talking about.
All the best
Seymour.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 14:43:40 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
Thanks Seymour. Nice to see you around again.

I think you've raised an important question there, re. our desire to share our One Truth with everyone we met, including friends and family - and I mean from a genuine desire to help people, rather than just obeying Guru Maharaj Ji's instruction for us to 'shout it from the rooftops' (that the Lord is on the planet). What I think is the sickest aspect of the corruption that happened to our thought processes and basic moral values is the way we were so easily pursuaded that (a) we were happier and more fulfilled than non-premies, and (b) we were so much happier than if we had never 'received Knowledge'. My certainty that Maharaji was the real thing and that Knowledge was his gift was so unshakable that it felt like a moral obligation to tell everyone about it - or at least those who were receptive to hearing a little satsang..

Actually, Peter was a total atheist and scornful of every new-age concept I had ever mentioned to him, so satsang would have gone straight in one ear and out of the other. I just feel lousy that my abiding memories of his final days are still soured by the cult poison. I mention in my journey - soon to be reposted - that on the evening of the day Peter died, I went away for a long weekend to receive Knowledge, instead of spending time with my family. Again, this came from that same desire to do what I felt to be the right thing. It had been well and truly instilled in me that the ONLY good you can do for others is to share the truth about K, thus to do the best for my mother and sisters I should go and receive Knowledge so I could give them 'proper' satsang from that point of 'inner connectedness'. Yuk.

Premies posting here have said that M wouldn't have wanted me to desert my family at that time. I don't believe them. Certainly both my community co-ordinator, other premies and the initiator in question advised me to go and get Knowledge. If current premies don't remember that intensity, their memories must have become somewhat distorted by the ongoing revisions that have occurred over the past twenty years. Maharaji's lifestyle instructions in the late seventies required total twenty-four hour commitment to practising Knowlegde - and that our families should under NO circumstances get in the way of that. I have read numerous posts here from ashram premies who had to miss the funerals of loved ones because of Maharaji's warped obsession with total commitment.

Right, gotta go - I feel a new breath coming on...
Cheers,
Nigel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 17:53:26 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
Nigel, you hit the nail on the head...
our desire to share our One Truth with everyone we met, including friends and family - and I mean from a genuine desire to help people...
My certainty that Maharaji was the real thing and that Knowledge was his gift was so unshakable that it felt like a moral obligation to tell everyone about it - or at least those who were receptive to hearing a little satsang..

Once again you are saying what I have felt. However you have gone through much more than me and I can only say that I feel that you acted with the best intentions. Unfortunately these are the things that the road to Hell are paved with. At least you got off the path before it led to the inevitable destination.
Don't feel bad because we were all in the same state and there are probably still many who are warped by their experience of 'Elan Vital'.
I remember some high-up premie ( maybe Joan Apter ) giving satsang at Orlando about a close relative dying and her quandry about whether she should leave the festival to be with her family and go to the funeral.
We were all brainwashed.
Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 05:12:05 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Seymour
Subject: Just remembered: Matteus's story...
Message:
Seymour, your recollection of Joan Apter has just triggered a vivid memory - and one that may have informed my choices at the time. There was an Austrian initiator called Matteus (have you got him on the list, Gmom?) who spent a lot of time in England. I guess you might have bumped into him, Seymour. His mother was taken gravely ill while he was running one of those Knowledge 'weekends' (which often ran to four of five days, as mine did). A phone call came through and a premie managed to interupt Matteus to tell him his mother was probably dying. Matteus replied: 'I am busy doing the Lord's work' - and wouldn't even come to the phone. Only after the K session was over would he even consider visiting his mother for the last time - though there was no guarantee she would survive that long.

In the event, he managed to get there in time. This 'morality tale' was, as you can imagine, told and retold throughout premieland, and given as an example of what 'surrender' was all about. And the obvious interpretation that was made is, I think, a classic example of the illusion of surrendered control. Matteus took that step and Maharaji kept his mother alive long enough for him to still go and see her.

Again, yuk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 11:39:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: That's like Kevin Smith's story
Message:
When I first moved into the Vancouver ashram just before Millenium there were two 'elder' brothers there, guys who'd had k for well over a year, in fact for about two each, I believe, Leon Hawrylenko, who got me a job with him at Jordan Rugs and is now a psychotherapist and still in the cult, and Kevin Smith, a wild, former Hare Krishna from Arizona, I think.

One night, after satsang, Kevin got a call from his family. His brother had been shot and killed at a party. Without skipping a beat, Kevin told his family he wasn't going to let them suck him into the maya, that he had something truly important to do -- meditate on the Lord's Holy Name -- and hung up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:10:12 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: The Illusion of surrendered control
Message:
The dowsing method does work in finding water, with some people and there may be some magnetic influence at work. Mike Dickin, of 'Talk Radio' fame is a sceptic by nature but swears by his dowsing rod to find underground water.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:16:55 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I disagree...
Message:
...but it's too late to get into this one right now.

(Way past your bedtime too, surely, Sir D?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:57:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: I disagree...
Message:
It was past my bedtime but I had to consult my spirit guides about your post.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:53:41 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: I disagree...
Message:
I know some premies I wish I could get to volunteer. Even when I was a follower of the Perfect Masturd, I always found it interesting that the premies I knew were also interested in the occult Uga Buga stuff. I mean wasn't the Knowledge and the fact that He was on the planet sufficient.

Sorry, but Manchester United is a soccer team--despite the fact that the majority of the world calls it football (futbol). Now real football starts today. Redskins vs. Cowboys and many more. It just doesn't get any better than that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 10:56:08 (EDT)
From: Helmet Head
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Football (OT)
Message:
I can't watch American football anymore. It's too violent. Ever since slow motion replay, I squirm watching it. Remember how LT snapped Joe Theisman's leg like a twig? And I can't remember the poor fellow's name who's leg was snapped in reverse at the knee. And all in slow motion replay again and again and again. That's entertainment? That's food for sadists. Why do they do that? How many times do they think we want to watch some poor sod's career come to it's violent conclusion?

However, if the Jet's do well and have a shot at it...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:15:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Private support for ex-premies
Message:

For ex-premies who need support or just to talk about their experience to a private audience, there is now a mailing list giving help and support for people who have been involved in Maharaji's knowledge cult. This list has been created so that ex-premies can share their true feelings to an understanding and safe group of people who have been through a similar experience.

No flaming or unsympathetic posting will be allowed and such posters will be blocked from using the mailing list.

This mailing list has been set up to help anyone who has had negative experiences through following Maharaji. Please feel free to express your doubts, fears, frustrations and problems without any fear of ridicule or retaliation.

Click here to subscribe to this mailing list or for more details

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 05:01:01 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Private support for ex-premies
Message:
Sir Dave

Thanks for the link. I've got some things I want to discuss/question, but am unwilling to do it openly on the forum.

Cheers

Lee

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 21:55:10 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Private support for ex-premies
Message:
I have been discussing the same prospect with some folks privately for several weeks, mostly folks who do not post. I am in the process of upgrading my system and so haven't taken action (and it'll be a few weeks). Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

An email list like this won't address the issues of communication between exes and premies. Since, once again, Miragey isn't going to do it, it'd be nice if someone did. But as exes, we have a few things to deal with on our own without trying to lend support to those with a Rawatt habit to feed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 15:01:19 (EDT)
From: Shp
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: All
Subject: Oneness or what? (with postscript)
Message:
I was hanging out in the bleachers until somebody used my name and that gave me the inclination to get back down here and get involved again.

OK, we have some fundamental differences here, which is the understatement of the month. But there is something else going on that I'd like to talk about for a bit that might help us put something more coherent together when we gather, for both sides' sake and the for the truth to be made manifest.

Does everybody here agree that we are all part of something much bigger, whatever you want to call it, and that in essence we are all part of One thing? If so, then what we have here is a disease in the One big organism of which we are all a part, where cells are fighting each other over something.

In extreme cases, there is all out war, both on cellular and human levels. We are, for the most part, are just bitching at each other and trying to make sense for our point of view at the same time.

All I am saying is that if we are all part of the One, then if we pay attention to each other and really use love and compassion to communicate, each individual cells (us) has more of a chance to heal and grow and get smarter. And less cell damage and destruction down the road for all. There has been enough already.

Back to the bleachers...the speck of the Oneness known here as,
Shp

PS
I ran the Jagdeo scenario through my head as if he was a new schoolteacher in the school where my kid went and Maharaji was the Superintendent....and Jag got busted finally, while messing with my kid. (God forbid anything like it)

Following brain activity with regard to the actual event(s):
1) Jesus Christ!
2) Protect the young from danger
3) Buck stops where?
4) Maharaji said he isn't perfect, but the Knowledge is...
I had no idea what that entailed, no one did. So now is he a regular guy just like you and me, full of the same trips we are and in some cases more, with the extrordinary mission of spreading the Knowledge of God to the world...and even though he's omniscient, one of his chosen and trained mahatmas runs around the countryside for years, traveling with other mahatmas, messing with kids, and nobody notices anything? Word is passed from a victim to someone up in the organization but still no one knows
(Brain crashes/heart breaks on this data.)
5) Where did they ship Jag off to? How can I warn others who may be near him? It IS TOO my business, morally speaking, especially after he got away with it for so long undetected.
6) Maharaji was very young, but was married and had a baby daughter ('75?)
(All the more reason to be vigilant of folks like Jagdeo.)
7) Everything will be revealed sooner or later
8) Until then, I pay alot of attention, bide my time and be cool

If it was the school system scenario, may God forbid it on everyone, I would not have been as cerebral and would have been alot more pro-active. In this case here, I support gmom and her friends and want to see her story aired out and cleared up, everything on the table.

Of all the stuff you talk about here, for me this thing with the kids is the most serious and the highest priority. I'm not afraid of going to hell or puking rotten veggies for seeking the truth and wanting to prevent child abuse. Never was. I want to hear what EV has to say to you, since I got no response to my sincere inquiries. That's where I am at right now. Since you all have allowed me to be your guest and air out my head here, it seemed fitting to share this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 22:02:14 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow,demon.co.uk
To: Shp
Subject: no such animal...
Message:
Does everybody here agree that we are all part of something much bigger, whatever you want to call it, and that in essence we are all part of One thing? If so, then what we have here is a disease in the One big organism of which we are all a part, where cells are fighting each other over something.

No.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 13:47:28 (EDT)
From: seymour
Email: seymour_t@rocketmail.com
To: All
Subject: good times/bad times
Message:
Hello y'all,
I recently received a nice e-mail from a premie who shared a similar background and thought that some of my reply might be of interest...
First of all thanks for taking the time to read my 'journey'. I am not too good at writing but tried my best to tell the story honestly.
You say 'My aproach to knowledge and to Maharaji was always cautious and cynical.
My aproach to premies even less trusting. However I still practice.'
This was my condition for the first few years - then, despite still being reluctant and doubtful, premie life became the norm. A few years later everyone had adopted a less disciplined attitude and being a premie, although important, was losing it's top- priority status. However, as I started to drift away back into the ways of 'eat, drink and be merry', I suddenly became a 'devotee' for the first time and started to enjoy the certainty of being in the right place with the right people etc.
This was a great experience and I had some great times but now I feel they were not as real as I thought.
Trouble is, it is hard to extract the emotional fervour, wishfull thinking, mass hysteria, group conditioning and all the other things that were going on from the genuine self-improvement that came from the discipline and dedication that being a premie involved.
I still think it is a wonderful situation to belong to a group of people who share your world view and, more importantly share your ethics ( i.e. all you need is love, do unto others etc.). Unfortunately I no longer believe in the spiritual foundation of that group. This foundation includes the confidence that Maharaji knows what's best and that there is some guiding, conscious force that we must tune into if we want a perfect life.
I now feel that the only thing that matters is how we behave towards each other and that the best way to learn how to live is through our efforts in reading, socialising as equals, debating, studying etc. etc. rather than satsang service and meditation.
I realise that this is just my opinion but what still gets my goat is that although Maharaji says that you can take it or leave it and that he is just a regular guy, he is really implying that if you do not practice knowledge you are a fool because he is the perfect master and what could you( who is less than perfect) know about how to live your life.
.
Finally you say I think I'm lucky that knowledge works for me - I would miss the special feelings that seem to be unique to it.
I too miss that feeling but once you see it as an illusion you have to move on. The experience that many of us had with drugs in the 60's/70's were regarded as real until Knowledge replaced them. Now I still hope that something will come along to replace the experience of being a member of the Lord's gang. Until then the life of a seeker is not so bad - there are great experiences from reaching a milestone in learning.
I suppose it could relate to being in a relationship which, if it is worth anything, demands loyalty. There is nothing like caring for and being cared for, the love between human beings is wonderful. But sometimes things don't continue as you would wish, someone dies, or leaves, or changes and you find yourself without the comfort and other experiences of being in an intimate relationship. There is one good side in that you have no need to be loyal anymore. You can chat to anyone, be as close as you like with anyone without going against any previous commitment or feeling guilty. Also there is the hope that although the last relationship did not work out the next one might be the one where you find the piece of the jigsaw that fits next to you ( I think that was from Sleepless in Seattle).I guess that's the feeling you get when you realise Maharaji is not who you though he was and launch yourself into the big bad world. It's a bit scary but also exciting and filled with hope that something wonderful will be around the next corner.
Cheers
Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:17:16 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Re: good times/bad times
Message:
It is Tuesday morning here and I have just read your post from last Saturday. You may not get a chance to read this response before it disappears, but I wanted to say that I very much appreciated what you had to say. I, too, believe that how we behave toward each other is paramount. I think Rawat's teaching in this regard is one of the worst things about him. I know a premie who considers himself 'not lovable' and that love should only go to that which truly is lovable, namely God and Guru. And he's got plenty of Maharaji quotes to back him up.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 13:59:43 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: seymour
Subject: Re: good times/bad times
Message:
Thanks Seymour. Your honesty with yourself is what stands out to me. I really appreciated reading this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:08:48 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Enough is Enough
Message:
Thanks Enough for you kind words. I do try to be honest but am a long way off from it most of the time.
This is especially true when being honest means humiliation or putting myself in the way of hard work.
When it comes to feelings and relationships however I make greater effort for if there is no trust then what's the point?
Part of my do-it-yourself spiritual path is learning and teaching through sharing experiences, being loyal to my family and friends ( no matter if God himself comes down and tells me to follow him), and using my mind rather than trying to ignore it. Oh and trying to have a bit of fun now and again.
Hope you are well
Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 08:07:16 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Enough is Enough
Message:
Hi Seymour,

Yeah, I guess your words hit home to me because they were similar to the hard questions I put to myself-finally-after 20+ years of enslavement. It's very difficult to do, especially after so many years as a believer.

I had always been someone who found amusement in the absurdity of life. Not in a cynical way, but in how we as humans act out our portrayal of how life definetely is-as if we really know.

The last few years in the cult were just drudgery. I had lost that life is a playground attitude and was much too serious. Where was that experience. Where was that teacher. What is wrong with me?

Anyway, to make long story short, I finally had to say Enough this will never work for me. I was what is called in the cult recovery lingo a walkaway.

Now thanks to this site and the related ones I am more than a walkaway. I am in recovery from this horrible experience of practicing Maharaji's Knowledge and beginning to find myself laughing again.

Sorry to have gone on so long.

Thanks again,

Enough(finally)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 14, 1999 at 23:31:17 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Enough is Enough
Message:
Dear Enough Already,

One of the first things I was told by a friend when I received K is that I had lost my joy de vivre (elan Vital?)
Funny how I never forgot this although I still believed M GAVE me joy de vivre but really it was just brainwashing about joy de vivre - not the real experience. Now after years of low self esteem and lack of humour I can see she was right on.

Good luck to you.

Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 17:14:51 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Re: Enough is Enough
Message:
Yeah, right you are Liz.
The lack of humor was in stark contrast to my being
voted second funniest guy in my class.
The guy voted funniest had a -morning show- makeing
the announcements over the intercom in high school.

HE had -Jokes-.
I used to make mine all up myself and
do voices and play roles.
but not in the rawat universe. Your freind nailed it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 15:51:31 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Enough's as good as a feast
Message:
Hi Enough,
Sorry to have gone on so long.
One good thing about this forum mallarky is that you can't really go on for too long - if you do no one reads it.
Glad to hear you are looking on the bright side of life and
that you are recovering from being lured by the Pied Piper. Laughter is often the best medicine.
Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 01:52:27 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Seymour
Subject: Re: Enough's as good as a feast
Message:
Hi Seymour
Return to Index -:- Top of Index