Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:16:19 (GMT)
From: Sep 18, 2000 To: Sep 29, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Yves -:- The Michael Dettmer's file -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:41:57 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I am disgusted with this -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ The observant -:- A question -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 09:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Captain Pugwash -:- A question -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- Some insight... -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sounds strong, but reasonable and maybe even fair -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A question -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:51:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The obeservant -:- Re : A question -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:34:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- For myself it's not just gm, it's all gurus, -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ Y -:- I know it is ugly -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- no -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Y -:- Fine -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:59:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Fine -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:22:55 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Michael Dettmer's file -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ y -:- Dettmers was Canadian national director -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- What EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY....????? -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Y -:- You're right, this is not clear -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Thank You -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:01:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Shaping a wicked organisation -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 09:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- How do u reconcile this post w the other above? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 13:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- How do u reconcile this post w the other above? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- to AJW, a question.... -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can we look at this, Anth? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- prisoners and guards -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No, he's the WARDEN, Anth! -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:05:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Empathy is one thing, but what is THIS? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 21:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- *Best of* J-M? and thanks, Anth, ... sniff (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 18:01:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Y -:- I NEED YOUR OPINION Jim. -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- violence? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 17:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Y -:- Yes, violence -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:07:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Thanks for the clarification -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 14:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm not sure what to think -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:06:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bold? More on Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 22:23:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I liked your post Jim -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Agree with every word, Susan (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- violence -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- You know what they say Anth -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 21:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- is this really how you think? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ y -:- Listen... -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Man on the Poop Deck -:- Warning! Loose cannon on main deck -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- I SUPPORT YVES IN THIS MATTER OF DETTMERS (NT) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:14:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Do you? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:48:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Yes. It seems clear enough, from a distance. -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 13:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yes. It seems clear enough, from a distance. -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:58:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- from a distance of 10 YEARS!!! -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Susan, this post is for you. -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Yves! Naughty! It wasn't. (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mr Clean? Well, he didn't inhale -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 15:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- are you both premie plants trying to get him NOT -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:46:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Susan, I'm not so sure you're right about this -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:20:19 (GMT)

Joe -:- First Time I Got One Of These -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- First Time I Got One Of These -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- First Time I Got One Of These -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:13:01 (GMT)
__ Way -:- First Time I Got One Of These -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- the sleaze was Joe's friend -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:22:48 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- LORD MAHARAJI's GOLDEN BLUBBER -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:17:34 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- LORD MAHARAJI's GOLDEN BLUBBER -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:21:50 (GMT)
__ The observant -:- What is Tim Matheson -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Come on, ob, that was hilarious! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Who is Sanp Head? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:19:26 (GMT)

TeddyTheTurtle -:- Turning the Motorway Round...Mike Finch etc -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:07:25 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Confessions of a book burner -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- welsh wizard -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 12:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- welsh wizard -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- TeddyTheTurtle is an Imposter...go away -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- TeddyTheTurtle is an Imposter...go away -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:51:26 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- life's afoot website -- check this recent posting! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 06:34:58 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- It's a very, very, very stupid thing to say -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:05:12 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- life's afoot website -- check this recent posting! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:25:17 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- life's afoot website -- check this recent posting! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:04:03 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Let me clarify if possible -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- For the record... -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 03:08:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Let me clarify if possible -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ LOVE -:- hahahahahahhaha.....nt -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 05:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- hahahahahahhaha.....nt -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 13:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You guys can all play angels this Christmas -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Whad you mean, Sir David is a girl?..nt -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Obviously, I meant Carol, Katie and Elaine (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 01:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- Let me clarify if possible -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 04:38:25 (GMT)

Jim -:- And the winner is! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:35:21 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Deja vu? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oops! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:22:13 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- I think Jim had a spell of Rawautism there -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 05:14:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kirk -:- Beam him up, Spotty. (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 18:42:06 (GMT)

Larkin -:- If I had a hammer... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:51:58 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- If I had a job... -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- House of eDrek -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ Larkin -:- If I had a job... -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 02:35:38 (GMT)

Joe -:- To Monmot and others re community radio (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:53:58 (GMT)
__ bill -:- To Monmot and others re community radio (ot) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 06:26:01 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Saw POV (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I felt the same way (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:52:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- I felt the same way (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- There is a rumor that Amy is about to be FIRED.... -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- What on earth for? (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What on earth for? (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- By the way -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- By the way -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Verna Avery Brown -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:25:52 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- To Monmot and others re community radio (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:53:25 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Micro-radio -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:58:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Micro-radio suit in fed ct in Oakland -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Micro-radio suit in fed ct in Oakland -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Micro-radio -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:28:33 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- More info: www.kqed.org -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 19:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Great Thread Even If OT -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:40:18 (GMT)

Yves -:- The Tribinanand File -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Really, this is all so damning! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:52:31 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The Tribinanand Freak -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:13:54 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- The Tribinanand File Prequel -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:27:36 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- No cynicsm intended; sorry for apparent contempt -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- To the Fence Sitter -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:28:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- To the Fence Sitter -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 05:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- To the Fence Sitter -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Open Door -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 19:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks for the Response -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- You're Welcome -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm sorry, but I really dislike people like you -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Freudian slip?!! Jim, if you could HEAR yourself! -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 18:10:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You don't know what you're talking about, Chris -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 19:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Postie, were you a DLM honcho? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Hardly a honcho -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Hardly a honcho -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Let bhagwans be bhagwans -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thank you Way for bringing that out. -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Flame retardant -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Flame retardant -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Think about what you're saying, Steve -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Well I've thunk and thunk -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:46:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Definitely *BEST OF* material round here, JM (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 18:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Flame retardant -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:10:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Toasted Postie -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Do you know what happened to Travinanand? (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Do you know what happened to Travinanand? (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- To Postie -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 21:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Tribinanand -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:59:23 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Job ops for lawyers with Milbank, Tweed, Hadley... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:30:15 (GMT)
__ __ Hmmmm -:- EV - Retired Pervert Mahatma Farm in Bihar, India? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sure looks like EV picks -:- their 'mahatma' retirement communities to suit ... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:28:20 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:31:24 (GMT)
__ Sister Dana Van Iquity -:- It wasn't ME! (nnnnnnnt) -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:27:57 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Law and child abuse -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Friends in 'high' places -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:14:46 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Nuns and the Church -- True Reactionaries -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:03:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Humiliation? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:39:32 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:57:25 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:11:15 (GMT)
__ Parminder -:- That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:31:02 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- other words he was either autistic or a sociopath -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:06:59 (GMT)
__ Yo -:- Don't you ever doubt god's non-existence? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:30:37 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I don't get it. Is this about tigers being hunted -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- He's not hunting it... -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Does the tiger mean he is or isn't a vegetarian?nt -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 21:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Nice one, Salaam! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Can we charge gurus with animal cruilty? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Can we charge gurus with animal cruilty? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:49:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Where is my spell checker?..nt -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:44 (GMT)
__ Jean-Paul -:- That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:55:25 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- As prophesised... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:24:12 (GMT)
__ Christopher Burns -:- That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:32:05 (GMT)
__ __ George Burns -:- That one is DEFINITELY NOT the true Maharaji! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- a comparison, adulation -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- pretending -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- pretending -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- pretending -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:40:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Would I qualify as a clairvoyant? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:53:25 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:41:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Michael Dettmer's file
Message:
Michael Dettmer was around during the events related under the post titled 'The Trivinanand file'. If this thing ever goes before a court of law or before the court of public opinion, Michael will either be questionned by a court of law or by some news reporters. Either one of them could ask him one fo the following questions:

1) Evidences demonstrate fat asses in DLM such as yourself were aware sexual abuses were going on (by Jagdeo and Tribinanand for instance). Why then didn't you try to take these folks off the ashram circuit before they assaulted or raped their next victim?

2) Since you admitted you were aware Rawat was a fraud, shouldn't you have stood-up and talked or at least, walked away?

3) When you left, you ended-up owning part of a Miami based airplane-furnishing business, which belonged to the organization. How did this happen?

4) There are reasons to suspect you came-out of the organization with some wealth. Was it a salary? Did you pay income tax on all of it?

5) Anne Johnson (an initiator-ess from Toronto) was quoted as saying 'Michael Dettmers did something very bad to Maharaji. Very bad.' Do you think she should have been busier that afternoon?

Given his past association with a questionable organization and his public endorsement of an alleged fraud, why doesn't he cooperate with ex-premies and reveal information which may prove useful. There are rumours, substantiated by information from his own website and resume, he has been involved in some financial scam involving some Swiss foundation linked to Rawat. Chances are, given his former position in an organization, which is about to fall into disrepute; some of it may prove true. If any one of these cases went to court, I hope he wouldn't be embarrassed to answer questions.

You see, Michael, there is no such thing as being neutral. You either give information willingly or you risk being asked tough questions under oath.

http://www.oz.net/~drek/dettmers/dettmers.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
During the Wartergate affair, most ended-up in jail except for someone known as 'Deep Throat' who provided information, kept his identity secret and dodged attention in return.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465026133/qid=969471035/sr=1-1/002-2861180-9291209

Michael was recently offered such a deal where he would have provided key information and dodged attention. His answer is still expected. Until it comes, my personal pledge is to keep bringing attention to him. These post are kept into the archives and whenever some news organization starts to dig into it, Micheal's name will keep popping-up.

The earliest is the better. Damage to Michael's reputation has started and keeps ticking. Some of his clients is bound to fall on it.

I belive Michael is holding the key and until he let go of it, Rawat will be safe.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:30:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I am disgusted with this
Message:
I have talked a great deal to Michael Dettmers and I find him to be a truly nice person. He put himself in a difficult position to get the letter to Rawat and he did it for all the right reasons. He had never heard about the Jagdeo problem while he was in DLM.

Yves, I suggest you read a book called ' Releasing the Bonds' by Steve Hassan. In the book it says one of the most difficult things about leaving a cult is facing all the things you may have done in the cults name to hurt people. I think we ALL are guilty of this, it starts with our families and spreads from there. Many of us talked people into joining ashrams, breaking off relationships etc. In some cults people were actually prostitutes and commited crimes for their 'gods'.

I find your threatening Michael frankly to be disgusting and cultlike behavior in and of itself. 'Get on our life raft now or the ships leaving' you seem to be saying. Its ugly.

While I am at it, I will be really pissed if the National Enquirer calls me at your behest. I would refuse to talk to them. A legit paper, I would talk to, but why on earth would I talk to a paper known for its lies? Do you truly think that this story being in the National Enquirer would make it more credible.

Yves, I am real, Michael Dettmers is real, and the other Jagdeo victims are real, I suspect the Trevinand victims are real too. I can't speak for them, but none of us want to be used to 'get' the Guru. Do I think the Guru should be exposed for the fraud he is? Yes. But the ends to not justify the means, and treating other humans badly just makes ex premies look as bad as the cult they have emergaed from.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 09:10:54 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A question
Message:
Dear Susan
Re emails- I lost your email address.
I sense you have grown as a person and I am glad for that.
I wish you well.

In the letter Micheal sent to Maharaji, I sensed that Micheal addresses him as an old friend. I have understood, Dettmer does not follow Maharaji anymore, but it seems to me that he does not regard Maharaji as a fraud. Do you have any comments about this.

Best regards
You know who

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
From: Captain Pugwash
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: A question
Message:
Hey Bjorn, does Susan know who she's REALLY talking to????

Best Regards
Who knows you

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 14:04:29 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Some insight...
Message:
Michael said he knew way back when he was a mission high-ranking officer, Rawat wasn,t divine as he pretended to be. Knowing that, he kept giving devotional satsang as to make believe he knew Maharaji was divine. These pretenses had the crowd of devotees following the same path which he knew was wrong.

Something else that troubles me is that his two brothers, his sister, his mother and even his singning teacher became premies while he knew what all this was about. I find this troubling.

During the 1974 Trivinanand events, as national director for Canada, Michael was in position to know some pervert was taking advantage of devotees and a potential danger to them. In spite of that, he let Trivinanand continue his tour until he had to be stopped. He had raped a girl by then. I'd like to question him on it. Since I can't, he risks, one day, being summoned by a court of law.

Michael always refused to level with anyone on the matter and remains in his tower. Given the traumatic experience many had with it, it would only be fair to expect him to talk about it and a)foster a much needed healing process and b)help stop the Mahaji fraud. Why would he refuse to talk about it? There are few speculative explanations which could only remain speculations. Here is a list:

1) he participated in financial or fiscal scams which, if revealed, could bring the attention of the IRS and/or FBI. These assumptions are plausible given his former boss.

2) Michael want to put the experience behind as if it never existed. This one is unlikely since a)he mentions the Swiss foundation he created for Rawat on his website, b)he recently got involved with Rawat on the Susan affair and c)he sometimes answer emails from the Forum.

3) Something happened when Rawat and him parted and they are not very good friends anymore. There could be an agreement between those two not to talk about each other. On the other hand, I suggested he could feed information and appear not to care. He ignored my email. This assumption is likely as Ann Johnson, Rawat's laundry maid mentionned something about it but I won't reveal my sources just yet.

4) Those of us who know him understand he is trapped into some MBA-psycho-management frame of mind. Given that, he probably convinced himself Rawat was just another client of his and he is bound with professional secrecy just as OJ Simpson'lawyer is. This one is difficult but arguable. On the other hand, I can't debate this all by myself and he doesn't return emails. If he did, I assure him none of it will ever leak onto the Forum. How's that?

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:22:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Sounds strong, but reasonable and maybe even fair
Message:
I don't know about the 'court of law' part. But I do agree that a cash payout and a non-disclosure agreement with a false messiah is a little troubling.

Gotta go....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 11:51:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: A question
Message:
Hi The observant,

Not every ex thinks Maharaji is a fraud.

My opinion is that he's as much a victim of the cult as everyone else- he was brainwashed from birth to believe all this 'Perfect Master' bollocks and has never been able to step out of the role.

I know him personally, and if I met him again, I would have no hesitation in treating him with civility, as he treated me in our personal interactions.

My interaction with him as 'Guru Maharaji' was different, and I make a clear distinction between the individual and his role.

Maybe Michael sees it in a similar way, but you'd have to ask him yourself.

Hope this sheds some light on your question.

Anth the civilised

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:34:08 (GMT)
From: The obeservant
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re : A question
Message:
Hi Anth

Thanks for your reply.

The way I see it there are 'posties', as on person called him self in a post (who is grateful for what they learned - but don't believe i M any more) Then there are ex-premies who more or less hate Maharaji fanatically (act like, but call themselves not a cult).

So maybe you should call yourself a postie.

BTW
You never sent me the e-mail you promised, but it is OK.

B

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:55:32 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The obeservant
Subject: For myself it's not just gm, it's all gurus,
Message:
and unquestioned authority figures who expect to be treated as higher, more special than, I just spend my time pot-shotting him because he's the one I'm more familiar with.

But I don't see him in isolation.

Thank god for the age of democracy.

Maybe if I knew Mr Rawat, I too would feel sorry for him, but he didn't seem to be too keen on meet and greet, so I can only go on his public projection, and that projection was full of lies, distortions and incompetence.

Think your definitions are rather simplistic, one could say unobservant!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:48:43 (GMT)
From: Y
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I know it is ugly
Message:
I fully get your point and invite you to read my post below on the subject. This has stopped being nice from the start. I want to get results and getting Michael's help is one way of getting it.

Now, since it is you asking, I am willing to let it roll awhile and see if results come without it. I don't want to hurt Michael. We all made mistakes in this, whatever were the consequences. His mistakes had big consequences for a lot of us and I consider he must do something to help correct them. Tell me you don't think it is fair.

On the other hand, I will be the last to leave a loosing chess board. Putting pressure on Michael to get his help is one of my next moves. It would only have been nice and fair if he had reached-out to us without my having to become nasty. He didn't. Talk to him. Tell him. He's intelligent. He will understand.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:54:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: no
Message:
I would NOT deal with anyone who was threatening me. If I were him I would not talk to you. I do not think the things you are posting represent a sane point of view.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:59:32 (GMT)
From: Y
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Fine
Message:
Mind you, there were lots of polite invitations before we got there but you don't want to see it.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:22:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: Fine
Message:
I think Susan is trying to say to leave her alone. She wants to do what she wants to do. Pushing her to contact Michelle does not seem right and you are not doing any good with that. I can understand Susan position as I can tell she had a traumatic experience with this. Personally I do not like Michelle and do not give a fuck what he does. But if someone says NO it remains to see which part you do not understand, the N or the O.

I am not asking you to leave the chess board, but perhaps you picked the wroung player.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:15:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: The Michael Dettmer's file
Message:
Hi Yves,

I don't quite see what Michael Detmers has got to do with Trivanand. What have you got against the guy?

And if Trivanand did something wrong, surely he should be the target of your anger, not Dettmers. He's just another ex-premie getting his life running outside the cult, just like the rest of us. There are no big fish anymore, once you leave the bucket.

He's been in communication with Susan, and made sure her letter got through to Maharaji, which surely must be to his credit.

Obviously you feel angry, but isn't it better to focus your anger on the culprit, rather than one of the politicians who was in office at the time. And if you really want to complain to a politician, why not take it to the top.

Give poor old Michael a break, he took plenty of shit from Maharaji, he doesn't need it from here too.

Anth who was also splashing around in the bucket once

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:30:28 (GMT)
From: y
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Dettmers was Canadian national director
Message:
Nothing AGAINST him. The guy holds helpful information we need to take Rawat down. If he wanted to get out of the way, everything would be much easier for everyone. He doesn't. I am sorry, but pressure has to be put on the shell.

I know Michael and respect him a great deal. I wrote him recently and offered him to lend us a hand. He hasn't answered.

Jim asked for his help. He refused to grant it.

This organization he helped shape is wicked and not only did he know it was wicked, but, to this day, he refuses to correct part of the wrong he contributed a great deal to. Anyway I slice it, Michael being one of the nicest person I have ever known, I can't respect his so-called 'neutrality'. I am sorry.

Now, I don't want Michael to get it. He knows what I expect of him. It is easy and effortless. I didn't need to bring this on the forum.

What do you expect now. If you ever played chess, you know smaller pieces have to either get out of the way or be taken down and I'm not about to leave the board. I am sorry, but Michae is an important piece to this game. Nothing personal. On the other hand, if Jim was to call me and ask me to let go, I would.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:38:32 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: y
Subject: What EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY....?????
Message:
You said:'On the other hand, if Jim was to call me and ask me to let go, I would.'

I found that a most curious thing to say!!!
Would you mind explaining to us EXACTLY what you meant by THAT??
It seems to imply that there is something going on here that isn't being clearly stated! Would you care to share with the rest of us, on this PUBLIC FORUM, please?

AGYA FROM JIM??? Jim calling shots behind the scene? Jim your new ANTI-RAWAT GURU??? Jim tells you what to do or not to do?

A most curious choice of words, indeed! Especially regarding such a serious thread! I, for one would really really like you to clarify what you meant by that, please.
THANKS

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:41:19 (GMT)
From: Y
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: You're right, this is not clear
Message:
In an email to Michael previous to this, I invited MD to cooperate. Given my assumption he has reasons not do do so out in the open, I borrowed the following idea from the Watrergate saga. In it, a character known as Deep Throat provided information to Woodward and Bernstein while remaining anonymous. Given Jim is a lawyer (a brillant person as well and probably a good lawyer) and he knows the whole story, I proposed he got in contact with him. If he had done it, the whole thing would have stayed off-Forum.

In the previous post, I extended the same offer to MD. In the future, if MD suffers the pressure, he may chose to relieve it. If he considers doing it, he might as well do it right now to limit damage to his reputation which is bound to occur as time goes by.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:01:15 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: Thank You
Message:
That clears it up some. Thank-you. I didn't mean to sound snotty about it. It was very late and I had just worked 10 hours straight with no lunch. I was tired. It just sounded really odd. Thanks for your response.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 09:14:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: y
Subject: Shaping a wicked organisation
Message:
Hi Y

You say that 'This organization he helped shape is wicked and not only did he know it was wicked,'

Well lots of us here helped 'shape this wicked organisation', we were all in the same boat. When you leave the cult, you're not suddenly 'normal' again. It's two years since I consciously quit, and I'm still working through plenty of stuff. Why should Michael be any different. We need to give each other a bit of space to get over our involvement.

Also Y, I don't beleive Michael in any way knew it was 'wicked' at the time. It's just not like that. As soon as you get a glimpse of what's going on you leave.

You say you don't respect Michael's 'neutrality', but I wonder what you really know about how he feels about things- have you ever discussed it with him?

Like I said in my post above, the fact that he is communicating with regular exes here in a co-operative atmosphere has to be an indication that he is coming to terms with his life in the cult.

And 'National Co-ordinators' have no power in the cult. They just get yelled at down the telephone every couple of weeks and have conversations with current No 1 honcho like,

'Maharaji really needs his Ferrari gold plating. He told me night. We've worked out the cost and we need $10,000 from your country'.

'But there are only seven premies here, and six are single parent families.'

'It doesn't matter asshole. Get them to sell their children's body parts, this is important. Heee wants it. It's for heeeem'.

Why not direct your anger at the man at the top Y. He's where the buck stops. Ex-PAMs like myself are still wandering around trying to figure out what happened over the last 25 years.

Anth the Ex

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 13:45:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: How do u reconcile this post w the other above?
Message:
Anth,

I'm confused. If no one's to blame but Maharaji and yet he's off the hook too because 'he's as much a victim of the cult' as the rest of us, is no one at fault? Maharaji exploits hundreds of thousands of people over the course of a lifetime, amasses a personal fortune at our expense, and no one's at fault?

What are you saying, Anth?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:46:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How do u reconcile this post w the other above?
Message:
Hi Jim,

As I said somewhere or other, I make a distinction between Mr Rawat, the individual, and Guru Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe.

It's like distinguishing between Bill Clinton the individual and the President of the US, which is his role.

I know you can look at Maharaji and see a greedy exploiter, but I can also see this little kid who was manipulated by his parents, and put into a role when he was very young, which he has never been able to get out of.

So I relate to him as a human being as well as a cult figurehead.

Anth the contrary

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: to AJW, a question....
Message:
Hi Anth,
Well perhaps you can answer a question of mine:
Do you think Mr Rawat has woken up to the 'Santa Aspect' of the role he is playing as Maharaji?
If not, why not? he's grown up now.

If so, when?
And, what do you think of the character of a man who will sacrifice the well being of so many rather than come clean?

I know what you mean about the empathy thing, but i haven't met mr Rawat, only Maharaji, so I have little to form an opinion about the character of the man, other than what comes through when he talks on stage, and on stage, he sets himself up in an authoritarian position. Other than that, I can observe the style of organisation he promotes and the callous disregard of the results of his self confessed 'experimentation' with people, neither of which really nail it because I don't know he sees it.

Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Can we look at this, Anth?
Message:
Anth,

How does that distinction really work? The Presidency is a job. Clinton's out in January. But Maharaji is supposedly an entity. He might have been formed by all sorts of sympathetic factors but, today, he is what he is.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:47:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: prisoners and guards
Message:
Jim, I wrote this in response to your earlier post, but I'm enjoying the discussion and will get back to you later. Gotta go and meet Dot at Gare du Nord.

Hi again Jim,

This is an interesting subject. Have you read 'In Cold Blood', or 'The Executioners Song'? I end up feeling empathy for people who have commited the most terrible crimes when I start to see what twisted them to such an extent.

There seems to be something very basic inside of us, which allows us to empathise with each other. You may well be much more aware of this than me, considering the job you do.

I grew up in a fairly tough neighborhood, and had plenty of fights when I was a kid. I won lots more than I lost, but I remember sometimes, seeing some kid who I'd just beaten, mopping his bloody nose or something, and feeling such sympathy for him, in his sorry, bloody, blubbering state, that I cried.

There's definitely a big contradiction going on here. You kick the shit out of someone and then feel incredibly sorry for them. As you commented, it's the same with prisoners and guards. My father in law was a prisoner in Germany in World War 2, and he's told me that some of his 'Nazi guards', were really nice people, who helped the prisoners out in all sorts of ways.

I know this feeling for your fellow human beings contradicts lots of logic, but we need to understand things, as well as try to change them.

In the case of Maharaji and his family, I got to know the children, Maryolin and Maharaji as human beings, as well as 'Divine dignitaries'. In the case of Maharaji himself, I often spent time chatting to him about stuff. My impression of him as an individual is very different to that of the Lord of the Universe. He came across more as someone who was a bit shy, sometimes nervous, eager to make an impression, and a bit of a bullshitter. If you stuck him in a proper job nobody would notice him. I've heard when he's in a department store or something, he often has difficulty getting the attention of the staff. Of course, when he's on the stage playing at being God, he's very different, but to me, this seems he has something in common with those guys who work in a bank all week, then get dressed up as soldiers at the weekend and drive their khaki jeeps around. It's not real.

So, as an individual, he's a bit inadequate, but he makes up for it when he puts his Krishna crown on.

Whaddya think Jim?

Anth the all in wrestler

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:05:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No, he's the WARDEN, Anth!
Message:
Anth: You are a very compassionate person,Anth, but I have to register my vehement disagreement with your prisoner/guard analogy. M is not a guard. The guard analogy probably applies to the general secretaries and community coordinators for the ashrams and now EV 'synchronization' directors in each community. They told us what to do, but it was M who decided our fates. He's the one with the true power to execute, not anyone else. That's the Warden's job, not the guard. The guard is there to keep you in line and to dole out punishment when he thinks the rules have been broken. But it is the Warden who holds the keys to the prisoner's fate, not the guard.

While M may have inherited his place at the head of the organization, I still hold him responsible for the destruction of many lives, the lost opportunities of ashram premies, the emotional, physical and sexual abuse of premies by those he made leaders, and now the falsification of his past so that he can continue his charade.

No, he is responsible, in my opinion.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 21:57:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Empathy is one thing, but what is THIS?
Message:
Anth,

There is nothing wrong with empathy, and human beings are complex creatures with all kinds of inadequacies, strengths and weaknesses. It's true of everyone, and it's true of Maharaji, most likely. But, so what? I think you are expounding a subjective view of a person, as opposed to analysis of objective responsibility. And some of your analogies just don't work. For example, you say:

Of course, when he's on the stage playing at being God, he's very different, but to me, this seems he has something in common with those guys who work in a bank all week, then get dressed up as soldiers at the weekend and drive their khaki jeeps around. It's not real.

I disagree with you. I don't think Maharaji was a different person when he was shopping in a department store and when he was dancing around as Lord of the Universe. He is the same person. A guy with a certain personality who, at some point, perhaps, believed he was God incarnate and at another point realized that wasn't true, but continued to use that false belief that he knew people had of him for his own, greedy purposes. And if he has evern moderate intelligence, or any empathy whatsoever himself, he knows the damage he likely caused. He knows the level of deceit under which he has been operating. At that point, it's immaterial whether he has basically a shy personality or not -- he is a very bad person, doing very bad things.

We all do bad things from time to time, but in the course of human relations, if you do a bad thing that damages many people, well that's a helluva lot worse than doing something that doesn't, and it requires a much greater level of attonement. The fact that some people might like the perpetrator on a personal level, is kind of beside the point.

I don't think his personality is really an issue. After all, the vast majority of premies don't know his personality one bit. We never even met the guy. You may have had some interraction with him, but I suspect that was also very limited, and in controlled situations, and whatever empathetic or positive things you may have seen, pale in comparison to the monstrosity of his offenses. He isn't a multiple personality, after all. Whoever did those things were one and the same person. He wasn't Rawat part of the time, and Lord of the Universe other times. I don't accept that.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 18:01:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: *Best of* J-M? and thanks, Anth, ... sniff (nt)
Message:
tell it, bruv ...
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:30:39 (GMT)
From: Y
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I NEED YOUR OPINION Jim.
Message:
I am somewhat shaken by Susan's reaction yet I know MD is in no position to pretend to integrity AND remain uninvolved. On the other hand, the last thing I want to do is to antagonize Susan. Truly.

MD was asked in all possible civilized ways and his answer always was negative. This, to me, is either something I don't quite understand (please justify, explain, argue for I am eager to understand) OR lack of integrity. Time has come, I believe to put increasing pressure since the 'NO-PRESSURE' tactic didn't work.

The whole cultic experience is violent. It involves cheat, deceit, theft, lies and different types of abuse. Fighting it may, in some instances like this one, need to be a little violent itself. As little as possible as far as I prefer, but some violence may be needed.

I intend to give it some time, hoping MD understand my point of view. He may have some valid arguments to justify his choices but as long as he doesn't answer our calls, these remain unknown.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 17:02:03 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: violence?
Message:
Yves,

I realise English is not your first language, and that your use of the word 'violence' may be a metaphorical way of saying 'strong pressure' with no physical harm intended.

Can you please clarify exactly what you meant, so people don't get the wrong impression?

(Post containing threats are deleted)

Thanks,
Forum Admin

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:07:25 (GMT)
From: Y
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Yes, violence
Message:
I understand you took my last post as a threat. Let me explain.

Putting pressure as I am doing is 'violence'. Nothing illegal, physical or criminal. If I recall the deleted post, I was trying to establish this type of violence (let's call it 'pressure' as opposed to physical violence which is really not my cup of tea) is sometimes needed in response to EV's violence wich is my word for refering to the abuses these guys do.

I was also saying my preference would go towards friendly cooperation given it was offered. Putting 'pressure' is meant to stimulate cooperation.

I hope this is swell by you.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 14:09:45 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: Thanks for the clarification
Message:
BTW: your post was not deleted.

I didn't think you meant violence in a physical sense, but it helps to be explicit about this because of the way some people might interpret what you wrote.

Thanks,
Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:06:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: I'm not sure what to think
Message:
First, ...Y is it? Iunderstand where both of you are coming from.

Okay, is that enough? Can I go now?

No?

Alright, an opinion, huh? Okay ...

Like Susan, I've found Dettmers fairly congenial -- no make that pretty congenial -- when I've talked with him. He certainly didn't patronize me like Joan Apter did or, worse, brush me off. Sad but true, my expectations of former PAMs has sunk so low Dettmers's main compliment is a left-handed one: he didn't ignore me and he actually seemed to be quite sincere.

And then there's the matter of Dettmers forwarding Susan's letter to the Hamster. That really was a bold move for him, I'm sure, perhaps, in some ways, even bolder than for her. Well, bold for both, I'm willing to say. They both deserve credit for that. The problem, though, regarding that issue is that Dettmers still plays his cards very close to his chest. He's like that with me anyway; I'd be surprised if he wasn't with Susan as well. I've had long talks with him but it's not as if he's simply opened up and told me what he could of what I want to know. No way. Dettmers is quite up front about what he won't talk about -- all the good stuff -- so it might be a bit unfair to simply call him 'cagey' but the result's the same. You're not going to get any behind-the-scenes dirt on this cult leader from this former right-hand man. As Michael puts it, he's 'not interested' in going there.

Okay, let's be honest, can I honestly say I'm confident that Michael's been substantively open with me? No, I can't. For example, do I even know if he was the recipient of any cash 'settlement' when he left Maharaji? No. Is he the subject of a legal non-disclosure agreement? I don't know that either. Indeed, it's hard to tell what I do know with Michael other than the fact that he's no longer a follower, as such, and is willing to say that Maharaji and he parted company back in the eighties because Maharaji wouldn't follow his advice vis-a-vis his 'presentation' and organizational structure. Sounds pretty dry, doesn't it? Yeah, that's the problem.

But is Michael 'the enemy'? I guess it depends on what you wsnt to do. If you want to right the wrongs the Hamster has done, as I do, you might find it hard to countenance the indifference so many former PAMs have to simply getting all the info out there, confronting Maharaji themselves and all that. Mind you, there might be all sorts of mixed loyalties, such as those poor Anth seems to wrestle with. I'm sure they never put the prisoner's actual guards on his firing squad, if you get my meaning. Familiarity often blurs things.

At this point, I'm the first one to give Dettmers credit for at least talking with us and sending Susan's letter on. But, then again, couldn't he do so, so much more? For example, EV's response to Susan was disgusting. So where's Michael's follow-up letter to his former boss? It's as if no one would even think of asking him to write one, let alone expect him to do so on his own. This just reminds me of how low expectations we have of these former PAMs.

But then there's Michael's limited interaction here. I have to be honest and say that I wasn't impressed at all with his vague and guarded equivocation. I can't see how anyone would be, the guy knew so much and tells us so little.

In terms of your 'threats', such as they are, to 'hurt' Michael (legally, of course) if he doesn't jump on the bandwagon, I don't know, Y. That seems a little harsh, doesn't it? First, it does seem unrealistic for several reasons but besides that, I don't know .... what's up? Have you tried to email him and he won't reply? Hm... he WAS your former National Co-ordinator and all that... I could understand you're being a bit miffed. Do you feel that way about all the former PAMs? How about Ockenden? Everyone likes Gary so does he get a pass somehow? Is that fair? And Donner? There's a guy who did alright by the cult too. Who's bugging him?

I don't know. I don't think your post was 'disgusting' and I don't think it was 'cultlike'. It was angry and frustrated and I'm with you in general on all of it. But let's try to be fair about these things too, huh? Well I know you feel that way. I guess I'm saying that fairness here might mean being more patient, looking for more of the story before allocating blame, especially in such strong terms.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 22:23:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bold? More on Michael Dettmers
Message:
And then there's the matter of Dettmers forwarding Susan's letter to the Hamster. That really was a bold move for him, I'm sure, perhaps, in some ways, even bolder than for her.

Jim, what makes you say this was 'bold?' A nice move, maybe. Maybe also a helpful one, but what is 'bold' about it?

Okay, let's be honest, can I honestly say I'm confident that Michael's been substantively open with me? No, I can't. For example, do I even know if he was the recipient of any cash 'settlement' when he left Maharaji? No. Is he the subject of a legal non-disclosure agreement? I don't know that either.

According to what Michael Dettmers told me, the answers to both those questions is yes, which he told me after I asked him the question directly. I think if you had asked him, he would have told you that, too. Michael also benefitted greatly from his involvement in the cult, at least career-wise. That's another important consideration. He might feel he has something to lose by being open about any of this stuff, beyond the kind of extremely limited and very UNPERSONAL responses we have seen.

And certainly you know from your line of work, Jim, that half-truths, although not technically lies, really can mislead, and are often intended for that purpose. Unless someone is willing to come forward and respond to honest questions, and not about the 'dirt' on Maharaji's personal life, either, but about the underpinnings of Maharaji's claims of divinity and how that resulted in a lot of damage to human beings, and why someone came to the conclusion he or she did that Maharaji was, indeed, not who he portrayed himself to be and why, it's really impossible to tell what you've got. That's the problem with Michael, and it's the problem I have with Michael.

He isn't an enemy, and he isn't a cult member either, I don't think. He's just kind of in limbo. Wonder how that feels?

Having said all that, it isn't appropriate to accuse Michael or anyone else of any sort of involvement in any sort of nefarious activities unless there is actual proof, and I haven't seen any, and I think everyone has to be given the benefit of the doubt until that kind of proof is obtained.

Frankly, I think the attempt to attach blame to many of the PAMs, which began this thread, is mostly because Maharaji has so far refused to take any responsbility himself, and because he has for many years allowed various PAMs to take the heat for all kinds of abuses and problems, because he was unwilling to do so himself. Maharaji always took credit for all the good stuff that happened, but the bad stuff was always the fault of others, in Maharaji's warped sense of self-importance.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I liked your post Jim
Message:
Very honest and fair.

This is why I thought Yves original post was 'disgusting' and 'cultlike'.

While in the cult, doing anything, anything, that would benefit the guru was okay. I was in one of those Knowledge selections where people had to say that yes they would cut of their heads for the guru. I saw all manner of ugliness done in the name of the cause. I treated my own family and friends abysmally because as non premies their only real value was as potential converts.

In no uncertain terms I think Rawat is a classic cult leader and EV is a classic cult. But I do not think any and every action is justified to 'take down' the cult. In fact, as we disussed before once, as much as I hate cult, I am glad I do not live in a political system that outlaws them to protect people from themselves.

The bravest ex PAM, the one who I respect the most, is the late Bob Mishler. He put himself on the line to tell the truth and help people. It was incredibly honorable, and I am sure terrifying. If other ex PAMs do not go as far as Mishler did do they deserve to be villified? And, it seems like Dettmers is being villified MORE than other ex PAMs who say nothing because he didn't say enough. As if it is a bigger crime to at least say it is a cult, and help me with the Jagdeo issue, than to say NOTHING, like Donner and some of the other silent ex's.

But what I hate most about the way Yves approached this, is that if I were Dettmers ( and I have NOT spoken to him about this ) I would say, these guys are nuts and they are threatening me and I will not be threatened into anything. In fact, Yves challenging me to try to coax Michael into doing whatever would satidfy Yves had the opposite affect on me. I will not be coerced by this sort of thing. It DOES remind me of how the cult operates.

Yves, I sense you do mean well, and that the language barrier could be a problem. But, really, this is not the sort of battle that justifies winning at all costs. The cult already stole our dignity once, lets not let it do it again.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:44:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Susan
Subject: Agree with every word, Susan (nt)
Message:
sfdw
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:52:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Y
Subject: violence
Message:
Hi Y,

You say, 'but some violence may be needed'.

This could be misinterpreted. What exactly do you mean?

Anth the old hippy

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 21:10:31 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You know what they say Anth
Message:
Never trust a hippy

ham the old hippy desperately trying to inject some punk into his brain, and mostly failing miserably, but fuck it, it has to happen!

Good to see that you seem to be into the next phase, and in response to your post the other day, looking back it is truly hard to believe or comprehend, but then we were all hippies so on some level we asked for it, in fact we were on our knees almost gagging for it.

Never trust a hippy has a lot going for it, even ambivalence!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:48:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: y
Subject: is this really how you think?
Message:
You know, this isn't some sort of holy war.

'you know smaller pieces have to either get out of the way or be taken down and I'm not about to leave the board. I am sorry, but Michae is an important piece to this game. Nothing personal'

Just a game to you huh?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:07 (GMT)
From: y
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Listen...
Message:
No. It is much more than just a game. I just used an analogy here. Try to understand and read the above post. Listen. I don't want nobody to get hurt. I just want results before I kick the bucket. I may live to be only 95. Time is ticking away.

Calm down. I know MD is your friend. Your eyelids are heavy. Nobody needs to get it. Calm down. I'll count to three and you're going to talk to MD about it.
1
2
3

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:41:57 (GMT)
From: Man on the Poop Deck
Email: None
To: y
Subject: Warning! Loose cannon on main deck
Message:
Goddamn, I hate when those cannons break loose in heavy seas.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:14:53 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: I SUPPORT YVES IN THIS MATTER OF DETTMERS (NT)
Message:
ASDF
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:48:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Do you?
Message:
Read Susan's posts, Gerry - I think she has good reason to worry, and I share her objections.

Nigel the sharer of objections (and imitator of Anth)

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 13:19:25 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes. It seems clear enough, from a distance.
Message:
For the first time I am phased by a debate between ex-premies. To me the matter is clear - a few quotes from elsewhere in this thread may illustrate why things seem straightforward to me...

Jim: Okay, let's be honest, can I honestly say I'm confident that Michael's been substantively open with me? No, I can't. For example, do I even know if he was the recipient of any cash 'settlement' when he left Maharaji? No. Is he the subject of a legal non-disclosure agreement? I don't know that either.

Joe: According to what Michael Dettmers told me, the answers to both those questions is yes, which he told me after I asked him the question directly. I think if you had asked him, he would have told you that, too. Michael also benefitted greatly from his involvement in the cult, at least career-wise. That's another important consideration. He might feel he has something to lose by being open about any of this stuff, beyond the kind of extremely limited and very UNPERSONAL responses we have seen.

JohnT: So it seems the MD guy's sitting pretty cash wise having helped to screw up other people's lives and perpetrate the worship of a false god and fraudulent messiah; along with all the vile abuse that came along as an integral part of that towering and egregious falsity.

Eventually, MD realises what it's about. He bails out with a pay-off for his silence about the racket, and does as little as he possibly can to clear up the damage, while appearing to be enough of a 'nice guy' to avoid the worst of the heat.

Is that it? Seems clear to me.

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:58:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Yes. It seems clear enough, from a distance.
Message:
Hi JohnT

Don't you think getting a 'severance payment' and signing a confidentiality agreement, with an employer with whom you are about to part company, is fairly normal?

There doesn't seem to be anything unusual about it to me.

Okay, so what if somebody takes the money and runs? I can't really see anything wrong in getting out of a cult that way either.

And when you exit, I don't think you have a clear enough perspective on things to be consciously exploitative. I'm a good example. I quit two years ago, and I know I haven't sorted out my feelings about everything yet. Michael, who I don't really know or communicate with, may well be going through a load of stuff too.

Anth the rational guitar

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:14:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: from a distance of 10 YEARS!!!
Message:
He's had 10 years, Anth.

How long you gonna give the (charming and personable) shark?

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:23:18 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Susan, this post is for you.
Message:
The previous post is exactly what I was getting at and I think it needed being cleared-out. I know, Michael being such a nice person (Mary, his ex-wife would say otherwise, but this is beside the point) I understand you feel uneasy about what you would say is attacking the guy. As for myself - and I believe you respect a different point of view - it is more a matter of putting things in their right perspective.

We established MD received a cash settlement from the cult and is bound to Rawat by a non-disclosure agreement. Given these informations, I argue he is not such a Mister-Clean as he would like everyone to think he is. I know he would rather have everyone shut-up about this and go-on. I decieded his past involvment needed to be revealed. He may correct it - he knows there are ways to do it without being liable - or leave it so. The story is not finished yet.

In the future, someone may dig his nose into the Forum's archives and try to understand our history. It may be a news-reporter, an attorney involved in a court case, an historian or simply some of Michael's business partners hinted to it. Here's another important puzzle piece I am proud to have helped put in the box.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:08:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves! Naughty! It wasn't. (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 15:14:00 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Mr Clean? Well, he didn't inhale
Message:
Yves: Michael said he knew way back when he was a mission high-ranking officer, Rawat wasn,t divine as he pretended to be. Knowing that, he kept giving devotional satsang as to make believe he knew Maharaji was divine. These pretenses had the crowd of devotees following the same path which he knew was wrong.

Something else that troubles me is that his two brothers, his sister, his mother and even his singning teacher became premies while he knew what all this was about. I find this troubling.

JohnT: Like the guy that worked for Phillip Morris, a high up guy, that realised the damage their poisonous and addictive product did. So he quit inhaling; but for the sake of his career pretended to continue to smoke. He just didn't, as it were, inhale.

But our MD friend goes further. For the sake of his career he gets friends and family using the product. Hmmm, did he warn them not to inhale, I wonder?

No whistle blower, the dismal Dettmers, that's for sure. And the clincher is that later he bails out from being an aware and cynical functionary for a false messiah, with a non-disclosure agreement.

I hope he got a lot for that, because, you know, it sounds to me that the dismal Dettmers has sold a lot of people down the river. For what price, Dettmers? A very great deal, I should imagine - the more you knew, the more you'd get, right? And as an aware and cynical functionary you spent a long time on the inside after you realised the nature of the beast.

Sounds to me you knew what you were doing, Dettmers. Sounds like you got a lot of cash, for selling a lot of folks down the river.

WAS IT ENOUGH, DETTMERS?


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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:46:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JohnT and Yves
Subject: are you both premie plants trying to get him NOT
Message:
to talk? If so you could not have chosen a more effective tactic. I don't think you are, I think you are both just so gung ho you cannot see how complex this really is.

The premie forum monitors are watching you now, saying, Go Yves, GO John T, shut him UP!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:20:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, I'm not so sure you're right about this
Message:
The premie forum monitors are watching you now, saying, Go Yves, GO John T, shut him UP!!!

But it's not as if MD's exactly singing like a canary, is it?

Honestly, Susan, is there any reason to expect that Michael's going to do anything further?

I'm not saying that he necessarily won't. Sure, he might wake up tomorrow and decide that his confidentiality agreement isn't enforceable given the fact that he made it with his former cult leader, for god's sake. He might even be willing to disclose all, including whatever material benefit he took with him when he left. (Personally, I got a sleeping bag the ashram had bought me about five years earlier. But why complain? I didn't get saddled with any ashram debt, at least. By leaving on my own a year before the Hamster closed the cages, I avoided that 'opportunity for service'.) And, yes, maybe Michael will one day truly face the unique chance he has to do some good in the world, by telling a story that just has to be deflating for the Janice Wilsons of the world.

But, Susan, is there any reason to expect that? You've talked with him at length. Maybe more than than me at this point, but I've talked with him too. You established a rapport with him and yes, on the single, discrete issue of Jagdeo, Michael did the decent thing and forwarded your letter. Good for him. I've already said that, in a certain sense, that might have been a bit of a bold move on his part. Yet I also take Joe's criticism of giving Michael even that much credit for doing so. I mean, in the circumstances, given the issue, given how nice you are -- :) -- what else could he do?

You know, it's not as if Michael rolled up his sleeves and actually confronted Maharaji on your behalf or anything. He just forwarded your letter. That's it.

But what about, as Paul Harvey would say, 'the REST of the story'? Where's the beef, Susan? Michael has made it abundantly clear that he will not help fill in the real picture of the real Maharaji. He wrote a very questionable few posts that, in light of his own satsangs of the time, seem like whitewashed, safe, sanitized history. When confronted with that, he's chosen to remain silent.

So you tell me how much difference it makes that people like Yves tell it like they see it? Dettmers is no fool. He knows that he's gotten a full, natural spectrum of reaction here. He knows what it takes to establish trust and respect and he knows how little he's done in that regard.

And, you know what, I don't know if you've ever gotten into this in particular with him, but I'm still not satisfied that he was candid with me, personally, or any of us here, when he responded to Manmot's story about the Santa Ysidro 'intervention'. Someone's lying about that and, quite frankly, given his stated refusal to dish any 'dirt' on Maharaji, given his own possibly precarious interests with respect to his non-disclosure contract with the devil, given Manmot's apparent intelligence and sincerity and given her account of the reliabiltiy of her source, it is still, very, very possible, that Michael's lied about that 'event'. Too bad EV's not selling the video.

Next time you talk with Michael, if there is a next time, Susan, why don't you broach the subject of 'co-opting'. Ask him if he thinks that he's got anything to gain by making friends with one or two ex-premies. Ask him about the big picture. And ask him just how much of our money he got when he left.

You might want to ask him further if he feels that his honesty is compromised by his contractual obligations. It would help if you could watch his pupils on that one.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:39:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: First Time I Got One Of These
Message:
Hey, somebody I knew years ago as a premie found my email address, I guess from the ex-premie yellow pages, and emailed me this sweet email, completely out of the blue. I hate to do this, but it's the very first time somebody has sent me something like this, and I just can't help it. I don't know if this person is a post-premie, or a fencesitter, or maybe still a premie, it's hard to tell. I have no idea what 'the sleaze' is. I suspect this person is still a premie in some ways, he dost 'protest too much' regarding the website to not be one. Keep in mind, this is a person I have not spoken to in at least 17 years. I have left out names, to retain confidentiality:

Joe,

I was bored at work and did a little search for Maharaji. I found
the expremie site and had a look for a laugh. I found you listed there! What are you doing wasting your time on such a stupid web site? Ex-premie.org ? What the fuck is that? If you didn't like your experience following Maharaji why keep following him as an ex-premie? I had some fun, met the sleaze and my
1st wife, [ ] as well as a few good friends. I have lived in Europe for the past 12 years. I am remarried for 10 years and 2 great boys [ ]. I hope your well and have more to do than wasting your time on this bullshit..
Cheers.

My response:

Dear [ ],

Thanks for the good wishes and your pleasingly nonjudgmental and friendly email. Nothing like having an open conversation with someone, right? Such a great way to greet old friends. Especially from someone with a stellar background like yourself. Did you learn those manners from your mother?

As far as what you're doing in your life, I frankly couldn't care less, and assume you feel the same way, so I won't bore you with what's gone on with me in the past years, and besides it's none of your business. I can certainly see all that knowledge has done for you, though, and I can tell you are as much a twit as you ever were. All the best.

Joe

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: First Time I Got One Of These
Message:
Dear Joe,
You've been on my mind lately, hope you are well. Try to get away from EPO and get a life though dear, I think those may be bed sores on your butt! :) Hahaha!
I gather you didn't think much of this person back in the day, eh? Thought your reply was very humorous, may not if you'd sent it to me though. :)
Hey, just got an email from Jess today, there was a 4.7 earthquake Fri night and a 3.something on noon Sat. She'd only experienced a small tremor while in SF! I can't think about it to much or I'll get all fearful and it is her life. Just hope she makes it through and I get to see her again, it has been almost a year, since the time I saw you!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:13:01 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: First Time I Got One Of These
Message:
Good response, Joe. Like a typical premie, this guy was hiding his insults.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:50:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: First Time I Got One Of These
Message:
Pretty funny exchange!

I think 'the sleaze' might refer to Rawat. If so, the person is another 'post-premie.'

It's interesting that we have been visited by two post-premies in as many days.

It seems that there are many former premies who think that the best course is to forget all about Rawat. They actually seem to resent the efforts by 'ex-premies' to speak out against the cult's current activities.

Personally, I don't understand that attitude.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:22:48 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Way
Subject: the sleaze was Joe's friend
Message:
No, I don't think that this blast from the past was a post or an ex-premie. I could be wrong as I often am, but I don't think that 'sleaze' was in the context of having met the 'sleaze' as being Maharaji.

Interesting that this person would refer to this website as a stupid website if this person was an ex-premie. IMHO, the only way an ex-premie would call this website stupid is if that person was an accidental premie who skated in and then directly out of the cult with absolutely no ill effects at all. And there were such people. However, Joe could tell us to what extent this person was involved.

No, I don't think this website is stupid. Or am I just to close to it. I think the only people who would call this website stupid and urge others to stop wasting their time are premies who are offended and threatened by this website.

I'd be really offended if I received a letter like that.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:17:34 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: LORD MAHARAJI's GOLDEN BLUBBER
Message:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

Go here to see the full details.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:21:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: LORD MAHARAJI's GOLDEN BLUBBER
Message:
Are you the same Tim Matheson2000 on that club. Whatever happened to the two fat women?
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:07:48 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: What is Tim Matheson
Message:
1. An X-P with lousy humour and a brain damage?
2. A PWK pretending to be an X-P pretending to be a stupid PWK?

I don't get it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:38:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Come on, ob, that was hilarious!
Message:
Here's what 'Tim' posted there:

BEAUTIFUL! I was just remembering how blown away I was when LORD MAHARAJI came on stage in Philadelphia with that FLOWER DRESS. God, even HIS BLUBBER was GOLDEN. I've never been more proud of HIM. HE blew all my concepts and changed my life. THANK YOU LORD MAHARAJI. I pray YOU'LL sit down with me some day and drink my whiskey while I smoke a cigarette between those TOES of YOURS.

And you thought that came from a 'lousy' sense of humour? I think it's the product of a GREAT sense of humour. But maybe I'm just setting my sights too low. Why don't YOU tell us some of your better Maharaji jokes. Surely you have some.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:19:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Who is Sanp Head?
Message:
A dead tree log.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:07:25 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Turning the Motorway Round...Mike Finch etc
Message:
Hey..Sir Davied mentions this wonderfull story...I was there and can tell thios story from my angle....part of history so to speak..

Well.....Mike Finch was a Physics student at Exeter Uni and he held a program for M ...I guess it was about 72 vintage...

We all ( about 50 premies) ...went down to Mike's terraced house, a small place in exeter....and M was there upstairs...and like we were all downstairs in the sitting room...

Mike decided to use the Uni's Student Union Van for the weekend, a Blue Ford Transit Van...and M decided to go for a ride in the VAn...About ten premies piled in the back with Mike Finch driving and M next to him..

As they were driving down the Motorway, a two lane job, M gives Mike Agya...Turn round the Motorway immediately and drive in the opposite direction of the Traffic...

Well... Mike ofcourse ignored the Agya and continued driving .....

And Mike never got over that...he asked M ...what should he have done?

And this is what Mike said to me....M told him that Satguru can turn the Motorway 180 degrees round so Mike should have obeyed the Agya...

Well Mike regreted that for the rest of his life...and never really recovered from this ....for years....he dviorced..and his ashram life was very difficult because he was married at the time and had to live in an ashram...poor guy....really intelligent man....and I think he was really effected as a theoretical physicist...

Mike was very attached to Balbagwan Ji..because Mike and BB talked for hours on Physics and the Word...and Mike was going to write a book about it...not sure if he ever did...Infact it was Mataja and BB Ji who encourged Mike to go to uni in the first place and study Phsyics...you can say that before that Mike 'was on the Edge'..heavily into the hard stuff...and becomming a premie was a miracle for him and his family because he got off the stuff and survived...aparently he was heading for '6 ft under' prior to that...

I would love to hear from Mike now and his perspective on this whole period...Mike are you reading this?..Did you ever write this book...Mike we talked about this book and how the word was the Primal Vibration ...and that Quantum Physics reduced everything to Vibes and Energy Packets...Hope all is well with you Mike...

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 11:07:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: Confessions of a book burner
Message:
Hi Teddy,

Mike may well have written his book, but I think I threw it on a bonfire.

We were living in the Education Ashram in London, around '74, where Mike was a regular visitor for 'intellectual satsang'. At the time, he donated two bound volumes of his writing on something like the metaphysical aspects of quantum physics.

When we were moving the ashram to Cornwall, to start Unity School, we had a big bonfire in the garden. I remember looking at Mikes books, thinking something like 'We won't be needing this intellectual bollocks in Satyuga. Who needs to know about physics when they are having a direct experience of the infinite?'

And onto the fire they went.

A few years later, Mike asked me about the books. I had to cringe, and apologetically confess to chucking them on the bonfire.

The last I saw of Mike, he was working for a Premie owned and run company called UCM, in Brighton, about five years ago. The company went bust about a year later.

You could try the Brighton phone book if you want to get in touch with him.

Anth the Fascist

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 12:38:07 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: welsh wizard
Message:
Hey...you could have thrown some gems into the fire...you welsh wizard...I guess at that time there were no PCs...and hence no back up...
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 13:36:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: welsh wizard
Message:
Hi Eddy,

Yup, this was in the days of typewriters and carbon paper, so what's left of poor old Mike's words of wisdom has now fully merged with the garden in Lancaster Ave, Tulse Hill, and has probably become part of several wild flowers or vegetables.

By the way, I don't know what gave you the idea I'm Welsh, but I'm actually of mixed race- half English and half Irish- a lethal combination.

Do I know you by the way?

Anth the Unwelsh

By the way Eddie, have you noticed your christian name is shrinking?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:24:54 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: TeddyTheTurtle is an Imposter...go away
Message:
Anth..I dont think you do.. I do remember your school's ex headmaster...the scottish guy with the rimmed glasses...

Since you are half Irish...do you know any of the Irish P's or ExP's...?? I know one or two...Basil Ofee..and one or two others..

How was Mike when you last so him...was he well...or ???

Thanks Anth

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:51:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: TeddyTheTurtle is an Imposter...go away
Message:
Hi Eddy,
It's Angus you remember from Unity School. I saw him and his wife Sally a year or so ago and they are both well in body, mind and spirit.

Mike Finch seemed the same as ever, but it must be five or six years since I saw him.

I did know quite a few Irish premies but I've lost touch with most. There were always a few in London. I haven't seen Basil for ages.

Take it easy
Anth the Where's me Bushmills?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 06:34:58 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: life's afoot website -- check this recent posting!
Message:
from Carol -- the following:

'You said: ' After all as he says ' what you are looking for is inside of YOU.' Now I've taken that to heart-- that's why I'm not a premie . ' I've said practically the same things before. I think it is what M wants us to do....leaveoff worshiping him. I think it is what 'God' would want and if there is any special connection btween M and God, then wouldn't the results be the same? Ironic that ex-premies may be doing what he wants! Or is this thought just bizarre?'

Well, what do you think, anyone?!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:05:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: It's a very, very, very stupid thing to say
Message:
How someone can think that in light of everything Maharaji does to train his seals to do just the opposite, is beside me.

We're talking 'Life of Brian' time.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:25:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: life's afoot website -- check this recent posting!
Message:
Hi suchabanana -
Maharaji HAS said 'what you are looking for is inside you', but he's also said many times that you need HIM to get there. One of the problem that I think many people have with Maharaji is that he says a lot of things that make sense, or that they can relate to, in his talks. But he also says a lot of things that are not true (i.e. the need for a master, the need for 'gratitude' to said master, etc.) Thus I don't think ex-premies are 'doing what he wants'.

Re Carol's post (I am sure she would rather discuss this on LaF, BTW) - I thought it was very sincere and a good example of 'thinking out loud' and trying to figure the whole thing out. The fact is that many people who have received Knowledge - even EX-premies - still feel some kind of connection to Maharaji, and are trying to resolve these feelings. This is not often discussed on Forum 5, because many of the ex-premies here (me included) don't feel this. But that doesn't mean that it's not something that people don't struggle with.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:04:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: life's afoot website -- check this recent posting!
Message:
Ex-premies are not finding a heaven within and neither are premies. How long can this myth be perpetrated? Maharaji doesn't even practise it himself but rather relies upon 'the world' to keep him happy, probably more so than most people.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:28:54 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Let me clarify if possible
Message:
My point is this:
If there is any special experience to be had, it does happen inside of you, regardless of who takes credit for showing you or telling you about it....and there are several sources who do!

Thankyou Katie, for helping to explain that a loving feeling can still exist despite rejection of M as 'Master'. We all have the same exact access to... forget God concepts and call it Love or Peace; and we do not require a master to get it. I don't want to debate whether or not God exists in any form or concept here. I think being free of allegiance to any one teacher IS part of the direction that I am/we are moving toward a greater understanding of who I am/we are as (a) human being(s). And IF a GOD of greater intelligence exists THEN > I BELIEVE that God would applaud any efforts of an individual to come to know him/her/it and would be extemely patient with our misapplications of energy and misunderstandings.

The excerpt of my post was written some time ago...a week or two when I was going through another cycle of intense examination of my feelings and beliefs about M. My current conclusion are similar to the ones I've reached before. It is natural to cycle through these. The way I am changing and or vascillating or 'fence-sitting' or being 'stupid'(from Jim and Gerry) or 'too precious'(Jim) is one of the ways that people find their own way out of ingrained concepts learned in a closed society.

You don't have to choose hate to get free! It is a choice. Anger is natural and helpful as a stage of letting go. It is a stage I am not comfortable staying in. My reactions to the namecalling and ridicule found here turn my stomache and cause me pain at times. I feel hurt and angry when people turn on me. It is a distraction from my purpose (and I sometimes assume it is for others as well) of coming to this forum, which is to attend to minor adjustments in my sense of self/reality. Writing and talking it out, is a tool for self-understanding. Writing about the things we have all known is like group therapy.

I would never stay in a (real life) group to heal any kind of abuse in which I felt repeatedly attacked by the other former victims. So sometimes I leave here because of that. Sometimes I leave because I don't have time to read or post here (that I want to spend this way, anyway) But I come back because of the ones of you who are kinder or smarter who know we can help each other; and because of those of you who respect the right of each of us to choose our own resolution to the problems that were mutually experienced and created within the belief system that M led us into.

I have resolved not to write here again unless I was addressed or unless someone calls something to my attention by email. I have gone back to only reading here for about 2o minutes or so every few days.

I applaud the sincere efforts made to free yourselves from stifling concepts and urge you to recover your gifts and own direction in your lives.
With Love, Carol

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 03:08:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: For the record...
Message:
I never called Carol 'stupid.'
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:01:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Let me clarify if possible
Message:
Dropped in for a minute - your post and Katie's is,as usual, clear and sincere.
Well said, both of you ,IMO. :)

Love,Elaine

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 05:03:03 (GMT)
From: LOVE
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: hahahahahahhaha.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 13:34:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: LOVE
Subject: hahahahahahhaha.....nt
Message:
What on earth kind of sick puppy mocks a simple closing?

God, you must wallow in meanness and anger - it's one thing to let your mind wonder into such sarcasm, but then to go so far as to write it out for everyone to see - why?
For what purpose would you mock a simple closing to a post.

Do you ever think about how your mind works - how it stays in this angry, unhealthy place?

Will you ever grow and become a gentle,compassionate,wise person - or stay in this self-made ugliness.

My post was so simple to K and C - yet you bother to intrude with your hurtful,mean ugliness.

I picture you as an old hag at a cauldron.

I imagine your response being the usual uncreative spouting of anger.
Oh well...

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:19:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You guys can all play angels this Christmas
Message:
You might as well get your moms to start sewing your wings because you three lucky girls will be angels this Christmas!

Isn't that nice?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 15:25:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whad you mean, Sir David is a girl?..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 01:50:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Obviously, I meant Carol, Katie and Elaine (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 04:38:25 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Let me clarify if possible
Message:
That was very clear and seems sincere to me. Although I don't agree with every point you post, I do enjoy reading your posts and I hope you will continue to post here. You said much truth in that last post. Everyone must unravel themselves from the cult in their own way and in their own time.

Confrontation-discussion can be helpful to see different perspectives and to help clear away the indoctrination and our lying to ourselves as a result of it. BUT loving support as comrads who have come through similar experiences is just as valuable. Without getting cornball about it...there is a time and a place for considering the use of a little sensitivity as we really don't know who we are posting to...and what their personal story may have been.

Stick around Carol. Don't ditch us. THE MORE THE MERRIER!

(Except those of you who want to drown the forum in your 'satsang' and not be willing to intelligently take the heat for it!)

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:35:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And the winner is!
Message:
I could never have imagined

I never could have imagined in my wildest dreams what an incredible gift it is to have my master in my life - someone who is there whenever I need guidance or
inspiration on this journey of life, who asks nothing of me in return, yet is always unfailingly there for me (IF I want his help), always with the utmost respect for me as an individual. He reminds me about those things that are really important to me, that I want and need to be with, but get distracted from by the hubbub of this world. Seeing him, hearing his words makes the experience of Knowledge really come alive in my life. Again and again he brings me back to that simple place inside of me, where I find my true joy and freedom. Gratitude and appreciation are an automatic integral part of this relationship - how could it be otherwise? I find the gratitude and appreciation spilling over into every aspect of my life. And for this I am also grateful, because it feels so good. All, thanks to my master!

Carole Jones
Ithaca, NY, USA

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:41:37 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Deja vu?
Message:
Didn't Carole J. say all that before? (Perhaps that was yesterday - another day, another dullard..)
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:22:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oops!
Message:
Well, how can I tell? They all look alike anyway.....

Sheesh...

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 05:14:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Nigel
Subject: I think Jim had a spell of Rawautism there
Message:
Damnit, Jim, I'm a doctor not a witch doctor.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 18:42:06 (GMT)
From: Kirk
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Beam him up, Spotty. (nt)
Message:
gfhd
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:51:58 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If I had a hammer...
Message:
Who-oh-oh-oh…
who-oh-oh…

(Fakiranand)

If I had a hammer
I'd play it in the morning
I'd play it in the evening
All over this land..
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out pie-men
I'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters…
Uh-oh … get me out of this land..!

Who-oh-oh-oh…
who-oh-oh…

(Rich Neale)

If I had a song
I'd pen it in the morning
I'd croon it in the evening
Sounding very unplanned…
I'd cram in too many syllables
And flowery devices…
Like 'something made me feel like I barely understood what a pearl-drop of perfection-gleam could exist in one's eye, but the sparkle of your glance made my heart start to dance while my sky was lit up by a shooting star…a shooting star… What name could I call you, what words could I say that might not turn me into a withering splurt of drivelling cat's piss…?' [Editor's cut]
Who-oh … all over this land…

Who-oh-oh-oh…
who-oh-oh…

(Prem Rawat)

If I had a cult
I'd milk it in the morning
and squeeze it in the evening
My word is their command…
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out warning
I'd blat about love between our brothers and our sisters…
And make sure
They never understand..

Who-oh-oh-oh…
who-oh-oh…

(Jagdeo)

If I had… [Editor's cut]

Who-oh-oh-oh…
who-oh-oh…

(Tout ensemble)

If we had a brain
And used it in the morning
Then maybe by the evening
We'd even understand…
Understand about love
Understand about freedom…
Understand about love between my brothers and my sisters
Who-oh…

[Editor's note: if you want any more you can sing it yourself… Mr Larkin is embarked on a new project.]

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:09:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Larkin
Subject: If I had a job...
Message:
If I had a job I would be doing this...

But, Larkin is my favorite and his poems and songs always have a place at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:50:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: House of eDrek
Message:
Roger,

You've had the decorators into the House of eDrek. What a smooth cyberpad you've built. Well done.

I was surprised to find the Private Eye article about Cainer and the Express there. I didn't even know it had been published.

And as far as I could see, it was all good, clean, artistic expression.

So maybe the Forum Admin should put a link back at the top of the page.

Great stuff, your site is a major cult corrosive and disinfectant.

Keep up the Good Work.

Anth the soon to be singing 'If I had a job.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 02:35:38 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: If I had a job...
Message:
You're very kind Rog - but I think 'Journey's End' is probably the only one worth saving for a second reading. Fuck - what do I know about poetry? Gimme John Donne or Dylan Thomas any day...
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:53:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Monmot and others re community radio (ot)
Message:
For those of you in the States who might be interested in community radio, which is something I really care about myself, there is a program on PBS this evening on the POV program (Point of View) that you might be worth watching. It's called 'KPFA On the Air,' an independent film about the country's oldest community radio station in Berkeley. I got to see a screening of the film a few months ago and I highly recommend it. It has great footage of all the voices that KPFA put on the air that other stations didn't dare, and includes the way they took on the McCarthy hearings, the Vietnam war, civil and gay rights, etc.

Anyone who lives near one of the five Pacifica Stations (New York, DC, Houston, San Francisco, Los Angeles), or near one of the many Pacifica affiliates, might be particularly interested, because the film also touches on the ongoing dispute KPFA has had with Pacifica, which culimated in Pacifica shutting down the station for 13 days last summer and a protest with 15,000 people that got it re-opened.

The show is running at 10:00 pm on KQED in San Francisco, but you have to check your local listings because different stations are running it at different times.

Also, and definitely OT but still on the subject of community radio, the National Association of Broadcasters are having their convention in San Francisco as we speak. That organization is mostly responsible for the Telecommunications Act of 1996, that allows big corporations to own up to eight radio outlets in a single market. As a trade-off, the law allows for local 'micro-radio' which are important because the big corporations are lousy at covering local communities.

Anyhow, the NAB can't seem to handle any competition whatsoever in their never-ending attempt to give us dumbed-down, homogonized radio. The NAB has pushed through the House of Representatives a bill that limits or abolishes micro-radio, and the law is currently pending in the Senate. If you are so inclined, contact your Senators and ask them to oppose the bill, in the name of free speech, and the rights of local, community, non-commercial radio. BTW, in California, Boxer is really good on this issue, but Feinstein hasn't taken a public position.

Thanks, and be sure to check out the POV program tonight on PBS.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 06:26:01 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To Monmot and others re community radio (ot)
Message:
Unfortunately, the NAB was only a part sponsor of the TEl act of 96. The real part of that act was the allowing of microwave signals and towers into our lives. It is an expirament that is too long and ugly to get into tonight but I watched that bill approach passage and contacted my bro in law who worked in the washington dc fed. e.p.a. office.
He said the fix was in and the epa was not going to squeak about the microwave issue at all. they didnt.
I had to put the subject down eventually. I could say a lot about it. I have a stack of info.

Money rules
period.
Clinton or gore, bush or whomever, dem or repub, when money talks, they both do what it says. They spin it different, but when push comes to shove, it is money that rules.

say it aint so Joe.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:49:01 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Saw POV (ot)
Message:
Hi Joe:

Well, I watched POV last night re KPFA and loved it and wished it were longer. I think the Pacifica stations are, like the Shadow Conventions were to the RNC/DNC, shadow radio stations which address the issues that mainstream media either ignores or demeans.

The weird thing is that they still are the only radio station (other than micro-radio stations possibly) that perform this invaluable service.

Thanks again for letting me know about the show.

M

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:52:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I felt the same way (ot)
Message:
I also wanted it to be longer. When I saw the screening in July, the filmmakers spoke and said that in their first go-around, they had 46 minutes of film, and they had just gotten through the 50s. Since the requirement was that the film be under 57 minutes, they had to cut a lot more out.

KPFA and the Pacifica stations really are precious, but I'm afraid they are under attack from within the Pacifica Foundation, which wants to water-down and begin an NPR-ization of the Pacifica Stations. They have been largely successful in DC and Houston, and partly successful in LA. They also tried to squash KPFA, but the community resistence was just too great. And the resistence is growing.

The CA Attorney General just approved a lawsuit by the State in the name of 12 Pacifica subscribers from all 5 stations. The AG found that there were substantial questions the Board is in violation of the purpose of the Pacifica Foundation Charitable Trust, whether it's bylaws are being adhered to, whether it is wasting assets, and whether it is violating California law. The suit was served on the Pacifica Board at its meeting last Saturday, and the hope is that the Board members will resign because they may have personal liability. We really need to get rid of the current board, although there are about 5 good people (2 from SF, 2 from NY, 1 from DC)out of about 13.

They are beginning discovery, depositions, etc. Now, this is REPORTED on KPFA, but you will NEVER hear about it at KPFK, where the 'gag rule' still is enforced by the Shrubb/Cooper gang supported by Mary Frances Berry, Lynn Chadwick and their ilk. I wonder, do the listeners at KPFK ask these questions?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I felt the same way (ot)
Message:
Perhaps the filmmakers will one day be able to make a full-fledged docmentary about Pacifica, given its unique status and incredibly interesting history.

Blaise Bonpane called into one show and began to ask questions of the host about KPFK's policies and politics and he was cut off and his call was terminated. I understand that he either quit or was fired over some rule which he allegedly violated and, obviously, is now persona non grata there. Such a waste of so many talented people.

I tend to think that the listeners in L.A. don't know to ask questions mainly because it's difficult to know there's problems when they don't hear about them. It's hard to know what's not being reported. It's like lying by omission...unless you get wind or suspect shenanigans, you don't know to ask about them. But I'm really not sure about that.

I can keep tabs because I'm on the email list of a friend who lives in San Francisco who keeps us apprised of the goings-on of Pacifica.

Given Pacifica's history of unique radio offerings, I think it's a national treasure and should be treated as such (hope does spring eternal). Also, I was amazed Caspar Weinberger used to have a show on KPFA, and was equally impressed by Mandel. And what would I do without Amy Goodman's show?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:29:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: There is a rumor that Amy is about to be FIRED....
Message:
As you probably also didn't hear, Pacifica fired Dan Coughlin as head of PNN because he covered a story on the boycott of PNN by the affiliates. Verna Avery Brown was basically forced out. And as you know they already fired Larry Bensky and Nicole Sawaya. Most people think Amy Goodman will be next. Hope not.

Yeah, Bill Mandel is another treasure. He has a great book out that just came out.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:45:58 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What on earth for? (ot)
Message:
The only reason I can think that they'd fire Amy for is professional jealously. I wondered what happened to Verna Avery Brown. I thought she might have changed her name to J. Marie Hall because they both sound so similar in the way they speak. There's a new reporter who's name I haven't caught yet, but she sounds like she just emerged from a coma and is ready to slip back in.

Do you think emailing Pacifica about Amy's purported firing would do any good? Or just fan the flames?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:13:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: What on earth for? (ot)
Message:
Emailing Pacifica does zero good. They have received thousands and thousands of emails in protest, at least from Northern California, over the past year. They have a seige mentality, although they did succomb to pressure over KPFA and seem to be biding their time before striking again.

Amy protested vocally about the firing of Dan and Verna. She, Amy, is also just way, too liberal/radical for where the Pacifica Foundation/Marc Cooper, etc., would like the network to be politically. Mike Beavis, the current head of PNN hates Amy and Amy has nothing good to say about him either.

They want all of Pacifica to become like the DC and Houston stations, with little or no public affairs programming at all, and to make them centrist like NPR, with corporate funding and lots of money from CPB. They think they can increase audience and get corporate/foundation sponsorship by mainstreaming the programming. And, I guess by engaging in censorship. Amy is a real problem for Pacifica because she anchors the flagship show, but she isn't what they want in terms of programming.

Of course all of this is anathema to what Pacifica is supposed to stand for, especially maintreaming, accepting funding, etc. and also against what Lou Hill envisioned. Mary Frances Berry just appointed a union-busting lawyer, and a guy to engages in buying and selling radio stations, both of whom do not even live in a Pacifica station area to the board. This doesn't look good.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:15:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: By the way
Message:
Do you ever hear about any of this on KPFK?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:26:29 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: By the way
Message:
No, nada, nothing, nyet... This is very depressing and sad. If the Pacifica Board capitulates to the corporate media mentality, as it appears it's trying very hard to do, it will be a sad day in America. And I don't think I'm being too dramatic by saying that.

I'd like to get inside Marc Cooper's head and see what he's thinking and where he's coming from. Pure self-interest? I think he's become starstruck.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:25:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Verna Avery Brown
Message:
This is a portion of a speech Verna Avery Brown gave in San Francisco last April, explaining why she left Pacifica, or rather why she was 'forced out.'

...And there were those who seem to no longer embrace these ideals with the same fervor…and went out of their way to question the need for affirmative action, …they rolled their eyes when stories involving gay and lesbian rights were pitched during morning meetings…issues concerning African Americans or other people of color were routinely placed at the bottom of the cast on the days when they were producing the show….many of my story suggestions were summarily dismissed as …not news worthy… or I was questioned about…the news peg. Suddenly I had no news judgement ???

Everything Democracy Now did - - - with it’s award winning team of journalists…was suddenly frowned upon as unbalanced… knee- jerk liberalism, or advocacy /activism journalism. Professional jealousies were so heavy in the air you could see it. And the PNN news was often comprised out of pettiness on those occasions when these individuals were producing the show.

Dan Coughlin - - - a fair-minded, compassionate, intelligent committed producer was ridiculed and undermined. He was made a target of their campaign to gain permanent control of the newsroom and they went about this with the secret endorsement of Lynn Chadwick and Dr. Mary Frances Berry.

On two occasions I spoke personally to Dr. Berry about the forces at play in the newsroom… Dan and I both met with Lynn Chadwick …they listened, made promises and then acted in ways directly contrary to what we had discussed. They had aided in creating an extremely hostile environment for Dan and I in the newsroom.

Then…Dan’s duties as producer were re-assigned. He was no longer to head up the news…he was given a “bogus assignment” which to this day….has not been fully clarified….the only thing that is clear, is that he has nothing to do with producing the news.

Dr. Berry would no longer accept my phone calls. Here is a woman, I had long respected…. someone I considered to be among the icons of black civil rights leadership. …my 15-year old son portrayed her life’s work as a subject for a history essay in school. I was dumbfounded by her actions. And hurt by her rejection.

Before I resigned…I made one final attempt to put into writing all of my concerns about the direction of the PNN news. I was the only African American journalist in that department at the time. Our engineer is black, but rarely if ever participated in show content decisions. My opinion as the anchor of that show was completely and utterly disregarded. And the chairwoman of the U.S. Commission of Civil Rights was ignoring my concerns.

To this day…I have not gotten so much as an e-mail from Dr. Berry…

I could not… and can not understand why she has taken this course of action….but if this network is to ever return to the bold, courageous outlet for peace and social justice that it once stood for…change has to take place at the top …I E-mail know if that means to remove Dr. Berry…or whether that means somebody moves her to examine her heart and do what’s necessary to heal this institution. But change has to take place at the top. It’s the head that tells the body what to do…the body doesn't give the head orders….any substantive change must come from the top.

And so in closing….that’s why I left. I left because I no longer felt the renegade spirit of Lew Hill was in control of Pacifica.

I left when I realized the majority of the board members were too timid…too uninformed …or too conservative to give a damn to step in and make the necessary changes…

I left because the Pacifica….I had …fallen in love with….no longer existed. and I left because I refused to lend my name…my voice… my energies to a farce.

But even as I leave this network…I do so with my commitment to the cause of progressive journalism…firmly intact.

And while I pursue other avenues for this expression…I urge you all to fight for the station…the network that we all love and cherish.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:53:25 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To Monmot and others re community radio (ot)
Message:
Hi Joe:

I very much appreciate you tipping me off to tonight's program. I would've missed it otherwise.

I didn't realize there was a segment of radio called 'micro,' but I think that that's all I listen to. Does that include college radio stations also? College radio and Pacifica have the best music (not to mention news etc.).

Thanks again
M

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:58:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Micro-radio
Message:
Micro-radio is a kind of movement happening, now that you can basically set up a low-power radio station fairly cheaply. Ther aren't many of them, and they only cover a small area, like a few square miles, or even smaller, but they hold a lot of promise for local communities being able to communicate on issues that affect them.

The Telecommunications Act of 1996 acknowledged, begrudingly, that the airwaves actually belong to the people, and not to the corporations. They only get a 'license' to use the airwaves at a certain frequency, but the 1996 act basically gave away billions of dollars of assets that belongs to the people. Even Bob Dole refused to sign onto the bill as a major rip-off. John McCain has even said the same. As a kind of sop to the fact that it was a big, corporate giveaway, they included language encouraging micro-radio. Now they are trying to get rid of that, too.

'Radio Free Berkeley' is the most famous micro-radio station in my area, but there are others.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:49:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Micro-radio suit in fed ct in Oakland
Message:
Hi Joe! I am sitting in my air conditioned house (upstairs anyway). Having grown up in the midwest, we should be able to withstand this little heatwave with ease. I can't! Thank God for the a.c.

You'll be interested to know that the federal judge in Oakland (Claudia Wilken) who 'unplugged' the Berkeley micro-radio station at the request of the FCC, was a very progressive attorney before first being selected as a magistrate-judge, and then getting appointed to the bench, on Boxer's recommendation, as I recall. Claudia was a federal public defender in San Francisco, and an excellent private federal criminal defense attorney in SF. She taught at New College too -- I had her for Wills and Trusts in the late '70's. That's when teaching at New College was a political statement. She's very smart, but very independent in her thinking -- not a judge whose decisions you can predict. I was always amazed that it was Claudia who put the station off the air, when she would have been totally opposed to it in her leftist lawyer days.

I have Native American friends who used to do the show 'Indian Time' on KPFA for years. I'm hoping I'll see some of them tonight.

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:21:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Micro-radio suit in fed ct in Oakland
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I think the issue was that Radio Free Berkeley didn't have a license. But the 1996 act is supposed to allow for the licensing of microradio, unless, of course, the current bill passes and Clinton, or his successor, signs it.

Hey, I think the weather is great. The last two nights have been gorgeous. Actually warm enough to walk around outside without freezing. And it's San Francisco! Plus, the usual, cold, weather is due to return tomorrow.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:28:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Micro-radio
Message:
There's a local radio station here in Laurel Canyon. And a bunch of small transmitters along Mulholland. Must be micros. They must pack some punch or corporate radio wouldn't be trying to wipe them out. Or perhaps too political as I imagine Radio Free Berkeley is.

Take care
M

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 19:12:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More info: www.kqed.org
Message:
Also, for those of you in Los Angeles, I am told the show is on at 10:00 PM on KCET.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:40:18 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great Thread Even If OT
Message:
Thanks for bringing this up even if it is OT. It is a very important subject. The free 'press' and media is very quickly becoming a thing of the past. Most media is owned by the same few corporations and too many cities have just one major newspaper now....kinda like Pravda...one paper with one editorial bent, pro-corporate....no labor coverage much at all. It didn't used to be that way.

Micro-radio is going to be VERY important as time goes on. Local programming might be the only way (with the net) to get info of value. (Have you noticed how over the last 10 years the lexicon of mass media has replaced the word 'citizen' with 'consumer'?) And WE OF ALL PEOPLE (Ex's) know how words form concepts...form self images..dictate actions.

In my area, Seattle, I listen to a micro-radio station 'Blackball Radio', when they broadcast and enjoy it's rough and uncensored content.
Heads up everyone. I, for one, have just sent an e-mail to my Senator as a result of this thread. Thanks again.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Tribinanand File
Message:
The Tribinanand File

· During the winter 1974, a few weeks after Millenium 73, mahatma Tribinanand was in Montréal. He had sex with a 18 years old ashram girl. The incident is known but hushed. The sister is “promoted” to the Toronto ashram and leaves the ashram life a short time after.
· Mahatma Tribinanand continues his tour. After Guru Puja, a get together held in Amherst in July 1974, Tribinanand visits a city in Saskatchewan where he is reported to have raped another girl. She goes into a depression, mutilates herself and is hospitalized for a long period. Tribinanand is wisked back to India and never heard of again.
· After these events, Anne Johnson is posted in Montréal to help keep things under control.
· During a three days weekend in September, an event is held in Nova-Scotia where Rajaji and Claudia attend. During the week-end, a known premie is in charge of keeping mahatmas away from girls.
We now can prove the organization was well aware premies were not in security with mahatmas they were asked to serve and obey but did nothing to correct the situation. Given Rawat had strongly established his divinity and mahatmas as saints, liabilities are shared by him.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:52:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Really, this is all so damning!
Message:
To think that someone like Trebinanand (my recollection of the spelling) was put out there as a Holy Man even while he was being monitored as a sexual predator is amazing. And yes, I knew that girl in Regina. She was a very quiet, nice country girl who, by all accounts, was completely shattered by the rape. Like Yves said, she mutilated herself (by carving an 'x' in her forehead -- wrong cult? Well tell her that!) and was instituionalized for a while.

And, yes, believe it or not, her sister, Linda, is still compeltely, absolutely, see-no-evil, fanatically devoted to Maharaji. I ran into her and her new husband a year or so ago at the mall. We sat down for coffee and I began to explain some of the information that was surfacing on the net regarding the cult. Her husband, who'd only received k a couple of years ago and really just because she insisted, had never heard any of the old stories. Funny how that happens, huh?

I began to fill him in and Linda, normally cheery and quite intentionally simplistic (she'd actually agree with this if she read or heard it!), couldn't take it and bolted. Went for a walk around the mall while Keith proceeded to tell me how mystified he'd been about the cult but had never really been able to find the right angle to consider it clearly. I gave him the address to the website but who knows what's happening there. He told me -- and it's no secret, anyone who knows Linda would know this to be true -- that in their marriage, Maharaji comes first, second and third. Nice, eh?

I wonder if you can still see the 'x'.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:13:54 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: The Tribinanand Freak
Message:
He also came through Hartford Ct. in 74 traveling with the community general secretary of Phoenix who came with his banjo and I was told he was also there to watch the mahatma.

ONE of the other mahatmas told gmj that he didnt experience light and the lord had him join the denver rainbow grocery staff.
He freaked after a while and quit and said 'I came to america to be a holy man' and started to give knowledge in denver on his own. I believe I heard that visa issues got him sent back to hindia.

Another mahatma came to hartford and on the soulth american part of his tour said SOMETHING that lead the premies there to CROWN him. Well, in the eastern thinking, unconcious oneness and all,
the only way to graduate from student is to realize that YOU are god. rawat doesnt mention that part of the hindu bullshit to his
always stuck in thier position students.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:27:36 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: The Tribinanand File Prequel
Message:
In the spring or summer of 1973, the Tallahassee, FL community scheduled, publicised then had to cancel an event with Mahatma Trivinanand (spelling varies). At the time he had long, flowing hair and a beard I believe. When he showed up later at a rescheduled time, he was bald - no hair or beard - and very nervous. The story was that he had gotten too much into a massage given by the housemother in New Orleans - no further specifics were discussed. That incident was reported to DLM HQ in Denver by the New Orleans ashram and he was called to meet with Bal Bhagwan Ji who severely reprimanded him. Thus the sartorial adjustments and wariness. BBJ may have been in Denver or pre-Millenium Houston at the time.
By the way Yves, this subject is extremely serious and should be treated with the same dignity and respect as Susan has in her case. The cute 'Job ops for lawyers' post only serves to undermine the seriousness of your original post. Take this information as a respectful contribution to a very serious topic.

Postie
( A post-ie is neither pre-mie nor ex-er. Call us fence sitters, whatever but there are many of us out here who have no regrets about time served. In this case, I wanted to set the record straight. )

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:30:23 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: No cynicsm intended; sorry for apparent contempt
Message:
All I was refering to is my expectation for Rawat's next moves. If he read Machiavel correctly, his best interest is to strike fast and strong and I expect him to do so next. I read it and my position is stated in it but I won't tell where.

Next moves are planned. Your turn Rawat.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:28:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: To the Fence Sitter
Message:
Hi,

I'm really interested in what you had to say about being a 'fencesitter.' What does that mean, exactly? I agree there are probably quite a few people like you around, and I'm very interested in how you see things, because it's always been difficult for me to understand how you can be a fencesitter on a subject that is so extreme and about something that promised to offer the ultimate experience of perfection and God. I realize I may have a blindspot about this and would appreciate hearing an opposing view.

When you say you are a 'fencesitter' does that mean you aren't sure if you are a follower of Maharaji or not? Or does it mean you aren't a follower anymore, but you have no regrets about being a premie and, as you say, the 'time served?'

If it's the latter, how long did you serve and to what extent did you 'serve?' Did you live in the ashram? Did you believe Maharaji was God or rather the incarnation of God? Did you change your view of that? What or who do you think he is now?

I'd really appreciate it if we could have a discussion on this issue; I think it would be very helpful to everyone to understand this better.

Thanks.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 05:07:35 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To the Fence Sitter
Message:
The reference to 'fence sitter' was not a self description but a good guess as to how my position would be characterized here. 'Postie' is a term a friend has coined to poke a little fun at our past and describe our current status re: M+K. Post-ie, not Pre-mie. Realist, not Gopie would be also be an apt description.

Joe, you have asked some thoughtful questions so I'll try to contribute.

From my post, it is obvious I was involved in DLM early on and embraced the religious aspects of GMJ - Eastern mysticism with all the trimmings. As a Denver IHQ ashram resident for 3 years I saw and understood enough to know that I had to determine for myself what was real. After awhile, I began to take it all with a grain of salt. I consider myself fortunate that after being around M a bit in Denver and on tour once, I saw M as human. A human surrounded by extraordinary circumstances, yes but a human all the same. The Satguru motif was appealing and I accepted M as having a powerful presence but at the same time, I knew it was a play. I use the word play quite literally because the idea of god incarnate definitely did stretch my views of spirituality and was an extremely appealing fantasy.

Being totally immersed in SS&M and surround by premies every minute, I did play along and did enjoy the fantasy. Took advantage of the situation, in fact and for that I was hypocritical. However, the experience was, for me, healthy. I do think that the devotional path can be useful and in my case was useful. At the same time, I respect those who did not benefit as I did. The more I learned about myself and trusted what I learned, the less relevent M + K became. Still, I practiced knowledge almost daily for 14 years and then stopped within a week.

Interestingly enough, and I think quite appropriately, I stopped meditating using the four techniques after a knowledge review with M. During a session where he spoke about the techniques, he said 'you know, you don't have to practice this knowledge if you don't want to.' It was as if a spear was shot through my solar plexus. I realized instantly that I had been practicing because I thought I had to. Within a week I had stopped techniquing. I think that I have taken my experiences in good faith and don't regret the time served. I am not a fence sitter but rather have assimilated those experiences and found value in them. I am a survivor because I approached M+K irreverently and did not take it so seriously.

I do not choose to go back 25 years and attempt to re-imagine what woulda-coulda-shoulda. I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. I will say that however M+K is described via Elan Vital, life with knowledge is still the same product in a different package. But I say let bhagwans be bhagwans and let buyer beware ;>)

Postie

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: To the Fence Sitter
Message:
I call myself an 'ex-premie' and also have no regrets. I don't see myself getting off that 'fence' if fence there is.

Sure I know about the shit in the history. There's deep shit in our society and lots of places, that doesn't make the shit right but I can't waste my time with regrets and self-induced suffering. There's suffering all around. That's samsara. I've found the way out that works for me.

Here's a duplicate of what I replied to Katie down below in the 'gratitude thread'.

>>>>>However, one of the reasons I began participating in this forum and in ex-premie.org was that people who I had really cared about had been very hurt by becoming involved with Maharaji - more than I ever imagined. I was lucky to have gotten out unscathed, and I know this.

I believe you and others, probably many others who say they have been really hurt with Maharaji involvement. I do not dismiss this at all. I've not seen the depths of that, perhaps I've been insensitive to a degree, but it's been taking me a long time to sort it all out. I'm still in process.

My answer involves many worlds so to speak. Maharaji represents a lot to me, a whole aspect of my life, in which a lot was going on. Recovery from journeys through way out worlds, the promise and development of spirituality, personal emotional development, coping with life and the world, alliances with many beautiful human beings and much more.

I've been through a lot in my life, many worlds. They all have valid teachings in their multifarious dimensions, some unseemly, but all worth looking at, worth meditating on.

I have a lot of friends who are premies and a lot of friends who are ex-premies. I have two close friends who are premies and at least a few that are ex-premies. My close premie friends live at a distance and I don't see them often.

I regard the continued involvement with Maharaji of my premie friends as part of the baggage of their lives. I don't share much of the dimensions of that, and the Maharaji part doesn't affect much of our relationship. These friends are rich and deep human beings, genuinely intelligent and good people. Sure, like all of us, they have work to do in their lives.

Regarding the suffering and damage factors of Maharaji involvement. As near as I can tell, some suffering has gone on in people's lives because of Maharaji. However, I think that there are also a goodly number of people that have benefitted in whatever way they have. Most of them don't post here. Why should they? Many are ex-premies where Maharaji has played a more or less significant role, then they have moved on. Not so many regrets.

To me Maharaji is just a token. I don't think he really is very much in touch with true spirituality. True spirituality I think is very rare and hard to come by. At the same time, there are simple qualities and true spiritual qualities that exist in us all, every one of us.

This may seem an out there thing to say (I believe it though and have my reasons) but I think that Maharaji was something like psychedelics. I think doors were opened for a time and then closed. I'm grateful for the acid trips I took in the sixties. They altered me permanently, sometimes in very difficult ways. Yes they are dangerous, but dangerous doesn't make them bad.

I don't think that Maharaji 'owns' his spirituality, but I think the doors were open for a time around him for many people. They opened for me in important ways. Many perhaps wish certain doors in their lives they never opened, but many are happy they did.

There's a lot to say, and I think I've touched on a few points, points that I'm interested in and that can be elaborated upon. These are the points I care about. I'd like to discuss further, but I don't feel at all comfortable arguing and I won't.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 19:22:01 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Open Door
Message:
Bobby, you said 'I don't think that Maharaji 'owns' his spirituality, but I think the doors were open for a time around him for many people.'

I think this is very true. Perhaps in the same way JF Kennedy was not 'King Arthur' but a mythological 'Avalon' existed around him for awhile. Many still in a romantic/nostalgic way miss the potential of an 'Avalon' and the poptential of a 'SatChitAnand'. Maybe that is the burn for many that post here, though I don't pretend to know their pain. The nostalgia does not mean we need to look for an open door where there once was one but, perhaps find that open door everywhere. Getting woo woo here but I do appreciate your comments.

All the best,

Postie the Moderate

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:13:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Thanks for the Response
Message:
Postie:

Thanks for your response, and forgive me, I have this annoying need to summarize and boil down things so I can understand them. It's a terrible curse, so please bear with me.

Being totally immersed in SS&M and surround by premies every minute, I did play along and did enjoy the fantasy. Took advantage of the situation, in fact and for that I was hypocritical.

So, you are saying that AT THE TIME, and not just in retrospect, (and this is a VERY important distinction and one that it is very easy to confuse), you realized Maharaji was not God, and that you were just living a fantasy and just decided to play along because you liked it? Is that really what you are saying?

Postie, are you really sure you aren't just seeing that in retrospect, through a lot of self-analysis and rationalization that happened after you stopped participating in the Maharaji cult? And could it be possible that part of your motivation for thinking that is a self-defensive one, as a kind of revisionist rationale that you weren't really duped, like maybe a lot of other people were, but you, being the astute and enlightened person you are, saw through it, and only stayed around because it was fun? I think you can see why that would be difficult for many people to accept.

However, the experience was, for me, healthy. I do think that the devotional path can be useful and in my case was useful.

Just how was it 'healthy' and 'useful,' given that you understood, again, at the time, that it was just a fantasy? I'm not saying fantasies don't have their place, but how can it be 'helpful' to live something you know is false?

Moreover, how could be be a 'devotional path' when you KNOW that the person who is the object of the devotion isn't worthy of it? Doesn't that fail just by definition?

Interestingly enough, and I think quite appropriately, I stopped meditating using the four techniques after a knowledge review with M. During a session where he spoke about the techniques, he said 'you know, you don't have to practice this knowledge if you don't want to. It was as if a spear was shot through my solar plexus. I realized instantly that I had been practicing because I thought I had to. '

Yes, it is interesting. Of course you thought you 'had to' practice, because that's what Maharaji said for well over a decade that you had to do. You make it sound like you made that up yourself or something and were wrong in thinking that. To the contrary, that came from Maharaji.

I guess you stayed around longer than I did. In my years of involvement, until 1983, I never, ever, heard even once from Maharaji that it was okay to not practice knowledge if you didn't want to. Oh no, he scared the shit out of us about the awful things that would happen if you stopped, and, moreover, he talked about the ultimate experience of peace and love which was the purpose of your life, which were completely unavailable to a human being if you didn't practice knowledge, and for a long period, you also needed to have 100% total and complete devotion to HIM.

I think that I have taken my experiences in good faith and don't regret the time served. I am not a fence sitter but rather have assimilated those experiences and found value in them.\

Well, so have I, but I think this is a different subject. I also have found value in 'those experiences.' I have also 'assimilated' them, but that doesn't mean I'm not critical of having been lied to and used. And having assimilated those experiences doesn't mean I don't regret the time served. It is, by far, the biggest regret of my life that I wasted nearly a decade following a fraud, which, unlike you, I sincerely believed to be who he said he was. How fortunate for you, and unfortunate for me.

Pardon me if I found lasting value in those years and now am reconciled and you did not find value and are not reconciled.

Some people who post here are maybe not quite 'reconciled' because they just very recently left the cult. They are just beginning to learn the truth about what they have been involved in. Anger and resentment are natural and healthy responses under the circumstances. But others who left a long time ago, like me, I think have 'reconciled' those years and do, in fact, find value in some of it. I think you are characterizing people in a fashion that isn't accurate.

I am a survivor because I approached M+K irreverently and did not take it so seriously.

Good for you. How exceptional do you think you were in having this attitude? But, again, it's kinda hard to believe that you would practice for 14 years and live in an ashram if you didn't 'take it seriously.' It's something I frankly cannot even imagine.

I will say that however M+K is described via Elan Vital, life with knowledge is still the same product in a different package.

I really disagree with this. The 'package' Maharaji sold to me was a path of devotion to the living Perfect Master. There isn't a word about that on the Elan Vital website. All that is hidden and denied, in an extremely dishonest fashion, and it is now packaged in a fashion unrecognizable to what was sold to us in the 70s and early 80s.

Let the buyer beware? And are you, Postie, doing anything to 'warn' the potential 'buyers' like so many are trying to do via this website, or are you just smug and happy that you had/have it all figured out and feel no need to do anything else?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 22:36:51 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You're Welcome
Message:
Joe,

In your attempt to 'boil things down' you have expanded rather than distilled. I agree the topic is a real can of worms and can never be fully dealt with but I will attempt to continue the conversation using your questions as a framework.

First, I can never be sure today what I was thinking in 1972 or even in 1992. Joe, you may or may not be correct that I have reconciled through 'revisionist rationale' but how would I or you or anyone else know that about themselves for sure? However, it is an excellent comment that I will consider it.

I was a different person in 1972 than I am today. I have needs/wants/desires today that have hopefully evolved. The n/w/d's I have today are, in part, a result of choices made throughout my life, including back then. I've said in several ways, that regardless of what was said to me, I was the one who decided to accept it or decline it. Taking responsibility, not blindly following. All I can guess now about how I approached my choices then is that as a skeptic I have maintained a BS filter. It has served me well while having the downside of keeping me aloof and separate at times. I deal with it.

I can see you having a hard time believing that I eventually saw it all as a play/myth but that is how I view it now, granted at a 20 year distance. Risking being facile, I'll equate it simplistically to a child's belief in Santa Claus. Yes, at one time I did believe in him but slowly 'woke up' to the realization that it was a fabrication. Yes, my parents 'lied' to me but hey, the toys were great and why should I be bitter that they 'lied'. As soon as I found out the truth, the myth was over but became a pleasant memory. Even if they had kept up the 'lie', I would have known better. I know, I know there are a thousand reasons why this analogy won't stand scrutiny here. I just use it to describe my past view of Satguru. Perhaps I was playing both mother and child to myself - hoping Satguru existed but knowing it was myth. And I still say it was a hoot and a half - I had fun. What was real for myself changed from a belief in the Satguru myth to playing along with it. I've already said it was hypocritical but perhaps self-preserving.

The 'useful' part? Ah yes. Today I view the time of belief in Satguru and for some years later as a bhakti yoga - discussed somewhere else on this site lately. In bhakti as I understand it, one is devoted to or loves something or someone intently and through that love comes a liberation. To love is enough and the return is not the 'blessings of the master' but an open heart. Not being a student of Eastern philosophy or religion, I can only speculate on bhakti's worth. More revisionism? As I said above, who knows for sure. Another very useful part of that time was working in collaboration with a diverse, international group of very passionate people. Maybe it was no more relevant to the world than a WPA crew digging and filling ditches but the benefit I derived was in the doing, not in the results. Selfish? Probably.

As far as the EV package. I think you mistook what I said, Joe. I think what is offered today may be repackaged but is the same master/devotee product. For that reason I do 'let the buyer beware'. When I discuss my 'time served' with friends, I tell them that K is not a weekend seminar. If meditation is their goal, I tell them to look into Buddhism or some other mind focusing practice. I leave it to you to use stronger persuasion equal to your passion.

Joe, I hope I have covered your questions. I know we do not agree on many things but I do enjoy having a discussion with you.

Postie

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:20:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I'm sorry, but I really dislike people like you
Message:
Here's what I dislike. You're obviously intelligent. Sounds like you're able to anticipate arguments so you can deal with them somewhat in advance (some premies don't appear to have even that most basic level of thinking engaged, as you must know if you've read their posts here). Yet you say shit like this:

Being totally immersed in SS&M and surround by premies every minute, I did play along and did enjoy the fantasy. Took advantage of the situation, in fact and for that I was hypocritical. However, the experience was, for me, healthy. I do think that the devotional path can be useful and in my case was useful.

What the fuck are you talking about? The 'devotional path' was all about worshipping this greasy, fat runt as the Lord of the Universe. And that was 'useful' for you?

You've embraced superficiality with apparent gusto and much self-satisfaction. Yes, I don't know you but I sure do read that in your posts so far. Of course you don't want to go back 25 years and think about what 'should-coulda-woulda'. That would take a level of honesty and introspection that you apparently have no use for in your life.

Yeah, I really dislike people like you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 18:10:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Freudian slip?!! Jim, if you could HEAR yourself!
Message:
QUOTE:

'I'm sorry, but I really dislike people like you.

Here's what I dislike. You're obviously intelligent. Sounds like you're able to anticipate arguments so you can deal with them somewhat in advance ...' ENDQUOTE
.
.
.
That's not what you dislike, is it, Jim?

Isn't what you dislike more to do with Postie's claim to have gone through the Maha trip ('the devotional path' as he/she calls it) and actually learned something from it? (though WHAT was learned isn't quite mentioned).

As for moving on from being a one-time premie, I'd say you're just as obsessed with the Maha now as you ever were, Jim. How absurd that must sound to you. Yet how obvious to any non-partisan observer.

I'll fuck off now, should I, Jim? (in case you feel the need to avoid my questions).

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 19:20:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You don't know what you're talking about, Chris
Message:
What's with you? You appear to have misunderstood my post to Postie and you also seem to be looking for a fight.

And what can I do? If I engage, it's more of the same. If I tell you to 'get lost' or 'fuck off' you whine 'bloody murder!'

I suggest we just leave each other alone, okay? I can't think of anything in particular I want to talk with you about and I'm sure you feel the same. So, how about it?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:08:26 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Postie, were you a DLM honcho?
Message:
I'm wondering if Postie, who claims three years at IHQ Denver, was a rank and file premie or in the upper caste of DLM bureaucrats?

Postie, I'm not trying to hit ya upside the head or nothing. I'm just trying to run an idea here.

Hmmm, although our own Joe would be the example to disprove my theory, I believe that some of the DLM honchos, who might have had such first-person insight regarding Maharaji as to discount his divinity, lived a better lifestyle than the premie drones that most of us were.

It is my impression that some of the DLM higher-ups, brahmin caste, did not really prescribe to the gruelling SS&M regimens that most of us submitted ourselves to. From an outsiders point of view the honchos appeared to have the better of it. Better clothes, better living quarters, better everything. It appeared that the honchos really didn't have to have 9-5 jobs in the world with the unenlightened. Hell, I thought that it was everyone's dream to be in holy company as much as possible. It was a quite a luxury to hang out all day with premies and have satsang and get all pie-eyed talking about Maharaji. The World was viewed and characterized as a real nasty place. To be doing service with other devotees was, IMHO, much preferred over the alternative.

Sure, the elite at one time paid their dues to some degree, but once paid off and a member of the club they took care of each other. And they also stabbed each other in the backs as needed. I think that it was an old boy's club-like atmosphere that would be difficult to leave.

Sure, this is my fantasy, but could it not be true?

I agree with Postie that the sense of community was enormous and that's what kept a lot of us there too long.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:23 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hardly a honcho
Message:
More like a rank and file drone.

You are accurate in saying that many of the IHQ honchos were 'upper caste' and benefited from that status. Similar to most corporate structures, I imagine. I don't know about their individual practices. Regardless of how 'surrendered' one appeared to be, you always lusted after clothes or better seat at events or groovier photo or better service or whatever. Maybe this was universal among 'shramies . Eventually you either let go of the desire (almost no one), stuffed it (many) or entertained it (many). Sorry to break the news - or maybe confirm what you know but IHQ was less than holy. Holier than thou perhaps but not particularly holy. Once I was around M when he was told about a restaurant that 'liked spiritual people'. M's response was something like, 'too bad because we're not spiritual' referring to himself and Marolyn. Another example of why I formed my unorthodox approach.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:36:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Postie
Subject: Hardly a honcho
Message:
'too bad because we're not spiritual' referring to himself and Marolyn

Gosh, that statement opens all sorts of interesting possibilities, doesn't it?

Also, Postie, you say that you weren't a honcho yet you indicate in the statement above that you heard Maharaji say something in a setting other than on stage as Perfect Master. And you say that you did see Maharaji off stage at other times as well.

So, while you might not have been a honcho you were, hold onto your hats ladies and gentlemen, incredibly blessed in the eyes of the premie working class. And I can't fault you for hanging around even after you saw what you saw. There is just too much interesting fun to ignore when your a camp follower, which is what I think many of us wanted to be or really were.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:32:28 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Let bhagwans be bhagwans
Message:
Boy, do I NOT understand that attitude!

Our former IHQ man makes one worthy and accurate statement, i.e. that Rawat's product remains the same regardless of the new packaging at Elan Vital.

Besides that, I am perplexed. Spending 14 of your best years building a structure that has absolutely no foundation is...healthy? You've found value in those experiences? What value, pray tell, comes out of the hoodwinking process? What lessons can be learned, other than: 'be more authentic next time, if you get a next time.'

So you get together with other posties to poke a little good natured fun at your past - 'oh, weren't we silly?!' But as for real examination, you choose not to re-imagine how you could have spent your life better. It was all 25 years ago, ancient history, eh?

I do not believe you, Postie. Current premies are fooling themselves with their wishful thinking. And you, Sir or Madame, though you have seen through one pipe-dream, are still fooling yourself. Your hypocritical days are not yet over. Your current laissez-faire attitude toward Mr. Rawat and others of his ilk is an affront to truth. But then I guess you did admit that you never were a sincere seeker of truth, you were always 'irreverent and never took it so seriously.'

Congratulations on being a self-proclaimed survivor. But do you not read the papers? Do you not know what harm these 'appealing fantasies' can do? Some of us cannot share in your post-premie comfort, and take a slightly different approach to Mr. Rawat these days. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I don't sign off with a little winking emotive.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:19:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thank you Way for bringing that out.
Message:
I knew something was a foot. Your post said it for me.

I want to add to Mr/Mrs post-ie that you being the opportunist for 14 years , how does it make you feel now to know that while you where licking gm's ass and living of the back of others, others where having the worst time in their lives?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Salam, Way, Jim
Subject: Flame retardant
Message:
Interesting. My original post was to contribute to Yves 'file' on Trevinand. Hopefully that information will be of value. But you seem only offended by the fact that I don't share your animosity towards M+K. Pardon me if I found lasting value in those years and now am reconciled and you did not find value and are not reconciled. You are obviously sincere in your positions, so let me respond.

I do take responsibility for my involvement with M+K. And I do take responsibility for myself now. After the 'awakening' mentioned in my reply to Joe wherein I stopped practicing K after 14 years, I did spend many years in honest introspection. That included group work, self evaluation, deep emotional work and more. I concluded that I had chosen to be devoted to M and all that it entailed and that my cynical, irreverant nature came along for the ride and served me as a BS shield. The original appeal of the Satguru was Eastern mysticism but also appealing was my need for an authority figure. Without laying out in detail the years spent getting to know myself, it's enough to say that I came to be my own authority and no longer need an external one. I accept the fact that at one time I 'surrendered' to an authority in the form of M and then found my own authority. After 7 years of no meditation or events with M, I found myself wanting 'that feeling' again. I meditated some, went to a Long Beach event and did enjoy it. On close inspection, I realized that what I enjoyed was the old friends I saw there and the deep connections we had made. I also confirmed that I no longer needed the authority of M. Yes, I am self satisfied in that but given the time in service to myself after time served as a premie, Idon't think that qualifies me as being superficial.

Toasted Postie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Flame retardant
Message:
It is a little difficult not to get toasted here especially if you don't 'toe the party line'. I'm really pleased to see your posts. I find this forum a little tedious to read sometimes because there is a rather naughty , anarchist schoolboy type of play happening. That's fine sometimes but I know many people who have slipped away from Maha and no longer have anything to do with Elan Vital , who have reconciled the time involved and feel no anger or bittereness. In fact I would dare to venture that they are in fact the majority of those who leave.

Many people I know , wouldn't post or read here with any regularity because they find many of the viewpoints absurdly extremist. I like to have a more balanced perspective expressed here and I hope that the moderates will not be intimidated into not posting their honest and personal perspectives.

Kind regards
Steve

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 14:50:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Think about what you're saying, Steve
Message:
The 'moderates' aren't the ones who started to openly question the cult, confront the guru and collect all sorts of suppressed information that make it easier for anyone with half a brain to finally see through this thing. What you're calling moderation sounds to me like simply not dealing with any of this at all.

What did the 'moderates' ever do to help you out of the cult, Steve?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 16:46:15 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well I've thunk and thunk
Message:
Howdy Jim,

This reminds me of when I used to go fishing. Put a certain type of bait on the hook and you catch a particular fish.

O.K. I've thunk about it as you suggested. First I looked back to when I first left maha between '73 and '76. I left then because I didn't see anything divine or impressive in the boy guru although I'd had a good experience in the k session. Also those WPC jerks came and told us to cut our hair and take up their style of dressing ie jumble sale suits with kipper ties. I didn't fancy giving up my ego either, seeing as how I didn't even know what it was!

Next time I left was between '92 and '98. This time because I thought Maha's video methods were crap and the discontinuation of community was disappointing. I also thought that his type of spiritual path was incomplete in that it didn't deal with life in this world and it's ups and downs effectively at all. I went back to it in a more moderate way between 98 and 2000 because I wanted to explore meditation and he was there to keep me inspired to apply the discipline to persue that.

Now the more relevant part--this forum. When I came on here as a premie, having read the websites accusations and laughed them off,I was in the most part taunted and ridiculed. My 28 yrs of inner exploration was judged to be a waste of time and my 'experiences' passed off as delusional. I was told repeatedly that I was in a cult and very condescendingly told to grow up.

There were a few posts to me that started to make sense and they were not the aforementioned. There was one from someone I can't recall who said that they could understand my wanting to explore the 'inner self' but why did I need Maha to do that. Why not go for an approach like Zen or something which doesn't require total alliegance to one teacher. Another post was Sir dave talking about love for his children. In other words there were a few exes here who spoke to me with respect and feeling .They were the ones who moved me to slip away from Maha.So in my experience it was the more understanding and moderate posts that made it feel safe for me to stay and listen.

In England the newspapers are divided between gutter press and more serious mature journalism. The tabloid papers are in varying degrees sensationalist with a fascist leaning. They shout out their headlines and encourage bigotry. The paper I read is called 'The Independant' and tries for a more balanced and factual viewpoint with some very intelligent and witty journalism.

I read this forum sometimes like a newspaper. I enjoy it. I like it especially when there are a variety of perspectives posted here.

Most exes haven't left because of this forum have they? Many wavering premies and exes who I know say they find the extremism and nastiness here offputting.

I personally know 8 ex premies who have told me that they find the one sided perspectives and dissing of spiritual seekers to be very unattractive and detrimental to the credibility of the forum.

I do not intend to devalue or judge the vehement and re-active side but hope that there is room here to listen and discuss less extreme experiences. Most people who've left are not 'steaming' but maybe a whole range of other things.

Variety is interesting , that's all I'm saying.

cheers Steve

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 18:34:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Definitely *BEST OF* material round here, JM (nt)
Message:
ydtf
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 02:10:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Flame retardant
Message:
Sounds good, but why are you still a fence sitter?

I would have appreciated if you posted under a different name and said who you were first instead of doing it backwards.

Salam-can-find-his-flame-retardent

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:19:29 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: To Toasted Postie
Message:
Postie,

Thanks for responding to our critical posts, and doing so with honesty and humor intact. If you read my journey entry, you will see that I, like you, still appreciate much that I experienced during my ashram days.

The experience of community in a spiritual context is, in and of itself, a valuable experience for many people, and such communities exists in a large variety of traditions. Likewise, pursuing the values of the human heart is intrinsically valuable. Further, the 'feeling' of 'holy name' is nothing more or less than the feeling of compassionate love flowing through us, a feeling that premies share with many Quakers, Christians, Sufis, Buddhists, etc. I personally feel that feeling during meditation, or after a particular good movie, or at a museum when emotionally moved by a piece of art, or attending a Mozart opera, etc.

The point, as you have already somewhat expressed and must know very well, is that all this is natural human experience. It is no way dependent upon a guru figure. The guru abuses the power he has over people's lives and minds. The guru lies.

If you have thoroughly checked out the current website of Elan Vital, then you know that Mr. Rawat denies ever having claimed to be God in human form, the Avatar, the Messiah, (or whatever term). Elan Vital attempts to hide all the evidence to the contrary. I think it behoves us, who have had direct experience, to counter these lies.

Our 'animosity' is toward the hurtful lies of Mr. Rawat's personality cult, and the hundreds of other such fraudulent cults active in the world today. (See Rick Ross and other websites on today's cults). Yes, I am a bit disappointed that you do not share that animosity, and I can't help feeling that maybe you are not quite as reconciled as you claim to be. Afterall, a person who has felt as if 'a spear was shot through my solar plexus,' has been affected in a deep way.

At any rate, I am glad that you have posted here and have withstood opposing viewpoints. I appreciate your intelligence and candor. Perhaps healing and reconciliation can continue.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:34:34 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks
Message:
and all the best to you.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:53:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Do you know what happened to Travinanand? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 03:38:01 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Do you know what happened to Travinanand? (nt)
Message:
No, I don't know what happened to Trivinanad after the incident related above.
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 21:22:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: To Postie
Message:
Postie,

Interesting post. Thanks for the information.

But, regarding your remark advising against the cute Jobs ops post, I think you will find it quite impossible to get everyone here to submit posts that are in line with your sensibilities. There is just too wide a range of personality, style, and opinion among the Forum participants.

Evidently, you are already aware of the range of opinion here, and find yourself somewhere between the extremes. I think you call yourself postie to mean post-premie, rather than ex-premie. Or does 'post' merely refer to the fence-sitting and you find yourself still partially involved? In any case, how nice it must be for you to be regret-free, but if you stick around here, I'm warning you that you may find a few regrets lying around in your subconscious. If you were involved as early as 73, you've no doubt been seriously affected. The 'time served', however long that was for you, becomes, upon the most honest and thorough reflection, time wasted. And time isn't cheap.

If you don't believe me, just wait. The longer one remains outsite Rawat's sphere of influence, the less and less appealing he becomes.

Thanks again for your post, and if I've misread you a bit, please do clarify.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:59:23 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Postie and Yves
Subject: Tribinanand
Message:
Thank you very, very much for this information.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:30:15 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Job ops for lawyers with Milbank, Tweed, Hadley...
Message:
We're expecting a letter any moment now from the law firm Milbank, Tweed, Hadley and McCloy LLP which is counsel to Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat. It'd better be stuffed with bank notes.
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:14:25 (GMT)
From: Hmmmm
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: EV - Retired Pervert Mahatma Farm in Bihar, India?
Message:
Just some facts:

Item One

Often migrant children fall into prostitution due to the lack of night shelter facilities. A large number are lured into the trade from areas of the Himalayan region, tribal areas, drought prone areas and several states of India, Gujarat, Maharashtra, M. P., A. P., Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Orissa, West Bengal and Bihar. Severe food shortages within the family and a lack of employment of the adults within the family are major contributing factors. Middlemen make false promises to the parents and give cash advances to them especially during certain festival times when buying new clothes or other items is considered a social necessity. The callous attitude towards girls is a fundamental reason for child prostitution in India.

Girls move into prostitution out of a sense of helplessness, ignorance or because they are sold into prostitution. It has been reported that initially girls try desperately to escape, but soon give in due to physical violence and sexual abuse. They are generally physically very weak, have a poor self-image, they feel isolated and alone, afraid and silenced and internalize their oppression and discrimination.

'Paedophilia' or the rape of minors is on the increase. It is estimated that 25 per cent of all rape victims are minor girls. One fifth of the reported child rape cases involve children under 10. Large numbers of child rape and abuse cases go unreported because of social or psychological reasons.

It has been found that girl victims of rape refuse to speak in courtrooms where the majority of the people present are adult men. They hesitate to narrate the incidents to the public prosecutor or judge, who in most cases, are also men.

Item Two
A girl, age 14, of Birat Nagar was gangraped by the GRP of Bihar Pradesh Katihar, India and 2 policemen of the District Police Post at the police post on February 25, 1995. Kishor Kumar Yadav one of the culprits was punished by the concerned authority in accordance with the India Law.

Item Three
The Dalit caste girls (in particular Pariyars, Damais, Biswakarmas and Sunuwars) are mostly at risk, says Rajeswari Singh, a local woman-rights activist. She adds that even the parents take part in the crime. 'The Dalit parents are indirectly involved in selling their daughters. They choose the groom for a price ranging between ten to fifty thousand rupees,' says Singh. Many Indians from Bihar and Uttar Pradesh frequently travel through the open border at Kailali, marry the Dalit girls and nobody knows where they end up. 'The police vigilance is lacking because the parents themselves are not so keen,' says Singh. In the small Dalit neighborhood near Adalat Road, at least 50 girls have left for India, but the parents would never admit such a case, adds Singh.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:28:20 (GMT)
From: Sure looks like EV picks
Email: None
To: Hmmmm
Subject: their 'mahatma' retirement communities to suit ...
Message:
the needs of their former priests.

READ THIS BOARD OF EV

1998

Welcome to Bihar, a state which is headed by a woman but where a woman loses her modesty every six hours. In the first eight months of this year, the state recorded 846 cases of rape -- by far the highest in the country. A majority of the victims was from the poor and weaker sections of society. And the culprits were usually from the neo-rich and dominant classes. But don't dismiss this as a mere rise in the crime graph. Behind the horrifying statistics is a brutal chauvinism that makes man use rape as a tool to establish his supremacy in society.

A recent study conducted by the Patna-based A.N. Sinha Institute of Social Studies following a sudden spurt in rape cases has revealed a rather disturbing trend. A majority of the respondents from the dominant Yadav caste unashamedly described the rapists as 'heroes'. According to S. Narayan, who conducted the study, such attitudes indicate that rape now has social sanction. At least in Bihar.

This social sanction was evident in the way Mrityunjay Yadav, son of Hemlata Yadav, a prominent leader of the ruling Rashtriya Janata Dal, reacted when his name figured in a rape case. The flamboyant youth, who was charged with raping Champa Biswas, wife of an IAS officer, jubilantly claimed that it would help him assert his presence in Bihar politics.

It was also evident when the Dalit woman Kari Devi was raped in public by two Yadav youths. She was in Mirzapur to attend her maternal uncle's funeral, little knowing what was in store for her. A couple of days ago, somebody had stolen the luggage of a local youth Sanjay Yadav and his clansmen suspected that the thief belonged to the Dalit basti. On September 23, an armed group of Yadavs attacked the village, firing in the air and exploding crude bombs. Panic stricken, the Dalit men fled for their lives, leaving the hapless women at the mercy of the marauders. Kari was beaten up, dragged out of the house and raped by Sanjay and Krishna Yadav.

But Nawada's Superintendent of Police (SP) Umesh Kumar Singh believes that rape is not committed by members of a particular caste. Validating Bihar's feudal credentials, Singh says it is a crime committed by members of a dominant caste, whichever that might be in a particular area. In other words, Dalits and other weaker sections of society better watch out.

Despite all its claims of protecting the weaker classes, the Government has not been able to tackle the rising incidence of rape in the state. During the 13 months that Rabri Devi has occupied the chief minister's chair, the state recorded 1,438 cases of rape. For her part, Rabri Devi has often warned that stringent action would be taken against the officials who failed to prevent crime against women. But her warnings have gone unheeded.

Opposition parties feel that the rise in the number of rape cases has its roots in the criminalisation of politics in the state. Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) leader K.D. Yadav is scathing in his criticism. He says that the rule of law has been reduced to a 'jungle raj' by the goons of the ruling party. Ambika Soni, president of the All India Women's Congress, admits that women are no longer safe in Bihar.

Read more at:

www.india-today.com/itoday/02111998/bihar.html

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:31:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties
Message:
In Britain today a Catholoc nun has been charged and found guilty of child abuse which dates back to the sixties and seventies. The nun is now 58 years old but faces a prison sentence for these past crimes.

I mention this because there may be some people here who may not realise that there is no statute of limitations on child abuse crimes in Britain.

Some people here feel that an injustice has been done to them because they were badly abused by a Divine Light Mission 'Mahatma' in the seventies. Therefore, if those people feel the need to come forward and press charges against the offender there would be no obstuction in British law against them doing so.

You would need a suitable lawyer in this country in order to continue with litigation and if this is needed, I will be able to help find one. You can, if you wish, press charges against the organisation of DLM and its officials of that time, particularly if they are not forthcoming in helping in this matter.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:27:57 (GMT)
From: Sister Dana Van Iquity
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It wasn't ME! (nnnnnnnt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:04:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Law and child abuse
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

There's also a law in Britain that says, if an official of an organisation commits these offences, using his role in the organisation as a means to carry out the offence, then the head of the organisation is legally liable for the crime.

Anth the barrack room lawyer

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 19:14:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Friends in 'high' places
Message:

But Anth, if the law says that, then how come the Pope - and the Archbishop of Canterbury aren't being held accountable for all those crimes committed under the auspices of their various churches?

I wonder what the official position on this is?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties
Message:
Sir Dave:

What did the nun do? If there were no statute in the States, I think the Catholic Church would have gone out of business by now. I read an article about ten years ago in the Daily Journal, the Los Angeles newspaper for lawyers, which said that up to that time the Catholic Church had paid out over $300 million dollars as settlement in lawsuits brought against them by former students and altar boys. Now that I think about it, there might not be a statute since the former students and altar boys pressed charges as adults. Since every single case settled by the Catholic Church was a confidential settlement, no one really knows what went on. Part of the settlement is a statement by the Church denying any culpability on their part. Of course, given the fact that they're shelling out big bucks and demanding confidentiality as part of the settlement, that says a lot right there.

I went to a parochial school for 12 years and I saw, and experienced myself, some pretty severe abuse by the nuns. I had one nun who harassed me so much in sixth grade (12 years old), that my fellow students, on their own, wrote up a petition and signed it demanding that she leave me alone. This particular nun was psycho and she was not alone in her divine dementia.

Of course, most of the history of the Catholic Church is the history of oppression, suppression, and the denial of truth (sound familiar?). I actually flunked religion because the nun said I asked questions that weren't supposed to be asked.

I know I'm veering off topic here, but I am glad this British nun is being brought to justice (if there is such a thing).

There was a kid in my elementary school who choked to death when he was sent to the principal's office for punishment, which meant either the 'Board of Education,' which was a flat board that the principal hit you with, or red pepper which they sprinkled on your tongue. Evidently, the cap flew off the red pepper jar and the kid choked to death on the excess of red pepper.

These are just a few of the reasons why I call my school years my 'deformative years.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:22:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Nuns and the Church -- True Reactionaries
Message:
I was also taught by nuns. Some of them were truly sadistic people, but others were nice people, just sort of sad.

Regarding the Catholic church, you could see the Church's true colors recently when the Pope shamefully beatified Pius IX, a reactionary anti-Semite who not only forced Rome's Jews into a ghetto but virtually kidnapped a Jewish child secretly baptized by a servant and refused to return him to his family despite years of international protest.

Such a progressive organization.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:03:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties
Message:
Your school sounds terrible. I hope manslaughter charges were pressed.

Regarding the nun; she force-fed children, threw them against the wall, sometimes knocking their teeth out, tortured them and humiliated them in various nasty ways.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:39:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Humiliation?
Message:
I thought nuns learned how to perform 'humiliation' of children as part of their novitiate training. I had no idea that you could sue for that.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:21:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties
Message:
Remember, lawyer is not enough. Any case of abuse. wether physical, mental and psychological are refered by the lawyer to a psychologist, which will make or break the case. I know someone extremely knowlegable in these case. Happens to be in the U.K. If you need the address, send me an e-mail to:

Salam_au@iprimus.com.au

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:57:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Catholic nun charged with child abuse from sixties
Message:
Thanks. I will be emailing you for that information.
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:11:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji!
Message:
Look what I've found!!!

10 reincarnations at the same time

sleeping on His Beragon !!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:31:02 (GMT)
From: Parminder
Email: parminder203@glide.net.in
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji!
Message:
Thank You so much Jean-Michel.
I have never seen such a Blessed Site.
He Definitely Seems to be the King of all Saints and Incarnations of God heard so far.
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:06:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: other words he was either autistic or a sociopath
Message:

rom his very birth, this holy child was never seen weeping or laughing. He had never cried for milk, had never demanded or asked for anything to eat because he was far above the human instinct of hunger and thirst.He was completely indifferent to heat and cold. He was totally free from delight and anger. He had no desire and was totally free from all worldly attachments

Nigel? A professional opinion?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:30:37 (GMT)
From: Yo
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't you ever doubt god's non-existence?
Message:
Don't you ever doubt god's non-existence?

Every time I do, I pray her to clean-up the holy bunch. I wait a few minutes and she never answers. I stop doubting. Maybe Ann Johnson knows something I don't.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:49:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I don't get it. Is this about tigers being hunted
Message:
to extinction in India?????

)oo(

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 10:55:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: He's not hunting it...
Message:
...he's shagging it Salam.

Anth of the human zoo

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 21:14:33 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Does the tiger mean he is or isn't a vegetarian?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Nice one, Salaam!
Message:
grrrrrrr!!!!! says the WWF

(that's the World Wildlife Fund, of course, and NOT the World Wrestling Federation)

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Can we charge gurus with animal cruilty?
Message:
I saw a documentry some time ago about the Indian tigers. They are magnificent creators, I do not care if GOD sitts on their
skin, anyone that does that should be charged. I am glad that they are protected and breading is going well.
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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 18:49:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Can we charge gurus with animal cruilty?
Message:
Possibly, Salaam (alakhem?)

Or will the day come when animals will be charged with 'guru-cruelty'?

[Tiger to Godhead: 'but I gave my life for him ...' ;) ]

BTW, I know English isn't your mother-tongue, as they say, but your post had some truly WONDERFUL, and unintentional ... mistakes? wrong word. ... creative alternatives? Much better.

How so?

Well, I just loved your use of 'creators' for creatures.

and 'breading' for breeding.

No offence intended. In fact quite the opposite.

Makes me think deeper about the origin of where we get some of those words.

Bon chance!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:56:44 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Where is my spell checker?..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:53:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji!
Message:
Many do these indians pickep up technics of meditation and then proclaime themself god and ask for devotion. Rawat did the same. They have a strange idea of the concept of god. This is the culture in India. Who will believe in their tricks now ?
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:55:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Paul
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji!
Message:
This guy definitely beats Maharaji's claim to merely be able to turn the universe round when they'd been driving the wrong way up a motorway. Who believes these people? I guess it's so steeped in their culture and upbringing, it is unquestionable reality for some people.

A bit like Christianity and the Bible in the West. People quote the Bible as if it is the truth without realising that it's just a book of old myths and legends and some history which they've been told from an early age was the truth and relevant.

How much of what people believe is what they've been conditioned into believing from an early age? If such myths are drummed into you from an early age, they appear to be reality.

I remember at school when I was about seven years old, wondering why miracles used to happen in the Old Testiment times and Jesus's time but not now. I asked the teacher why this was and the poor lady was stumped for an answer.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:24:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: As prophesised...
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

The lion may not have lay down with the lamb yet, but it sure looks like the guru got to shag the tiger.

Anth reader of signs

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:32:05 (GMT)
From: Christopher Burns
Email: mybelovedjesus@mailcity.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY the true Maharaji!
Message:
Absolutely Impressed!!

Have never seen anything like this anywhere else. I have no words to express myself.

Every section is worth referring to. Take a look for example at the Chapters in Repository of Infinite Divine Powers because that are the ones I read last. I am going to read every bit of the site.... I recommend starting from here only

Thanks for referring it Jean!

-Chris

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:51:15 (GMT)
From: George Burns
Email: None
To: Christopher Burns
Subject: That one is DEFINITELY NOT the true Maharaji!
Message:
There is but one God and it was me.
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:48:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: a comparison, adulation
Message:
Pretense upon pretense upon pretense:

From Repository of Infinite Divine Powers:

But the whole beauty is that being
the supreme Repository of all the
Infinite Divine Powers, He claims
to be nothing and is so humble.

From Maharaji - Biography - The Man Behind the Message: [emphasis mine]

He says he is an ordinary human being,
no different from anybody else, yet
his gatherings often trigger a degree
of enthusiasm and respect which to a
neutral onlooker could justifiably be
interpreted as adulation
.

From www.dictionary.com's entry for adulation:

adulation n.
Excessive flattery or admiration.

[... from Latin ... adulari, to flatter.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition ...

adulation n. ... Servile flattery; praise in excess, or beyond what is merited.

Think'st thou the fiery fever will go out With titles blown from adulation? --Shak.

Syn: Sycophancy; cringing; fawning; obsequiousness; blandishment.

Usage: Adulation, Flattery, Compliment. Men deal in compliments from a desire to please; they use flattery either from undue admiration, or a wish to gratify vanity; they practice adulation from sordid motives, and with a mingled spirit of falsehood and hypocrisy. Compliment may be a sincere expression of due respect and esteem, or it may be unmeaning; flattery is apt to become gross; adulation is always servile, and usually fulsome.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

adulation n : the act of admiring strongly [syn: adoration, idolization, idolisation]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 22:30:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: pretending
Message:
They're pretending that
he's not pretending to be God-in-a-bod
pretending not to be God-in-a-bod.

Another comparison:
The www.babanandsinghsahib.org site is
currently down, but I remember reading
something like 'the Highest in the
Lowest is truly the greatest Highest'.
Compare that to 'God is great, but
Guru is greater than God.' Perhaps this
is standard Sikh/Hindu guru doctrine.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:12:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: pretending
Message:
'God is great, but
Guru is greater than God.'

Is it because guru shows you god? So no guru mean no god.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:40:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: pretending
Message:

Is it because guru shows you god? So no guru mean no god.

You're right, that was the doctrine. It still is, but in a watered-down form. The full quote was 'God is great, but Guru is greater than God because Guru shows you God.'
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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 01:53:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Would I qualify as a clairvoyant?
Message:
Seeing that maharaji never said he was a guru, I guess the above does not apply to him. Now I understand why hw also never claimed to be a god. Only a teacher. A bad one for that.
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