Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:16:19 (GMT)
From: Sep 18, 2000 To: Sep 29, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Jim -:- Dettmers (re-posted b/c I drew another blank below -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:27:04 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Just to recapapitulate -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Just to recapitulate (right spelling now) -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Update on this spilled on the French Forum -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:22:11 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Jim/FA another error posting. Try again Jim nt -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Okay, here's my third try (to Susan, by the way) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Hi Jim -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves -:- Some speculations while we're left-out -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Some speculations while we're left-out -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Anything yet? -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 16:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Tee-dee-lee-doo's third day -:- Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 19:45:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Tee-dee-lee-pom's second day: bored -:- Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 16:42:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- P.S.: -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- P.S.: -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Some speculations while we're left-out -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks nt -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Some speculations-2 ... -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Quit speculating about Susan -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:06:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- What wrong here is? -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohmT -:- Hear ! Hear! -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Well said, Marianne -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:43:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Why? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 05:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Pardon me, Salam ... -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 07:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I do not questioning the right for privacy. -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- That should read: I do not question......nt -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 11:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- I agree with Salam -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:15:31 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Help needed to update recent history page -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:02:16 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- From Guru is Greater than God: to God in the Flesh -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:21:12 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Would you like the actual documents? -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hey bill? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Hey bill! -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:06:14 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- What about the 90s -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 19:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Loud applause for you J-M (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:03:58 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Jean-Michel is doing the job of a monk -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 11:02:59 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- 80s -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:26:47 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- eye ball squeezing -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:12:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- JM told me someone lost an eye. -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 20:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- rejoices in the 80s? -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 13:44:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- End of Satsang -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and beragons !! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:36 (GMT)

TED Farkel-auto k baby... -:- Doing OK,but wouldn't mind a little 'holy company' -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:43:13 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Try this Ted. -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:46:41 (GMT)
__ __ Eric -:- Try this Ted. -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 21:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Time warp Eric -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! And I've got pictures! (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 00:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Try this Ted. -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Or, you didn't receive the 'Fifth Technique'? -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- and read Boris's journey....nt -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 13:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Great Journey -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Damn, now I know how the Master feels -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 05:06:03 (GMT)
__ __ TED F-video coordinator -:- Damn, now I know how ' I ' feels -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Roger, you've got to keep these dialogues on HofD! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- This opportunity is a showcase for premies -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!!!!! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 05:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!!!!! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:05:26 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Just stare into their eyes really long like (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ Gordon Showcase -:- You make me sick! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Hmmmn -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Hmmmn -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 19:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I'm off to the programme tonight -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 13:19:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hmmmn -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 00:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Right Salam -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:10:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I also remember him saying -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 15:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Honest, this is what I was told -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 01:19:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, Gordon, let's recap here... -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Whatever you say. Good that Mike did not -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 03:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Ask him to get a bigger ass. -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 05:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- First visit, Gordon? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 02:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- You just gotta be NUTS! -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 00:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You just gotta be NUTS! -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- It's 'losers', Gord (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:55:09 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Panic! alternative philosophy tracts (ot?) -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:27:14 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- experiences and expressions -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:37:30 (GMT)

AJW -:- Repost from below -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:41:03 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- This is a good place to start for -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- This guy did it. -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:51:27 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I think you have Mishler's comments wrong. -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Also, Anth.... -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Also, Anth.... -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well, I disagree, quite a lot. -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 20:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I hear you Joe -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, no, no, NOOOOO, Anth -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:45:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hang on Jim, the world is sticky -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Hang on Jim, the world is sticky -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, and Hitler had the most fetching smile! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Yes! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:52:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Oh No ! not the comparisons with Hitler ! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- M and M -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:17:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Mao -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 23:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Mao -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 06:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Genocide -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You acutally believe that nonsense? -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:26:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- What book, what theory? -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It didn't happen on that scale, no -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No completely right, Jim -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Germs -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 18:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Reading Jared Diamond? -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 19:03:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why is sex fun? -:- Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 22:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- It didn't happen on that scale, no -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You know what I'd like to know? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 02:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You know what I'd like to know? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:02:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You know what I'd like to know? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 21:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You know what I'd like to know? -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That ol' synchronicity .. -:- Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Feet of Clay-Anthony Storr -:- Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 22:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ... you don't mean, GASP ...do you? -:- Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 17:36:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- PS Jerry. -:- Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 08:14:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- You know what I'd like to know? -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- ANTH THE HAMMER! -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Dalai Lama -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:53:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- RE:Dalai Lama -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- RE:Dalai Lama - my apologies -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 07:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stev -:- Dalai Lama - good point John -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:20:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Dalai Lama -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- The gun may have been sensible- -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Dalai Lama - Just a man doing the best he can.. -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:57:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- They All are JUST men/women.... -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Repost from below -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:38:44 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- very interesting discussion -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:26:48 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Pomiee Chicken? -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:05:23 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Perfect Master World -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Time for overhall. -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Good site Salam -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Where's the link to my forum? Plus top tip -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Where's the link to my forum? Plus top tip -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I didn't read it all but -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:52:38 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Repost from below -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Repost from below -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- 2nd response -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 01:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Repost from below -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bonjour Robyn -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- the essence of my shallowness... -:- Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 14:32:07 (GMT)

Salam -:- The chicken and the egg -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 15:49:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Nowbody is linked to ANY organization -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- you make it sooo clear to me -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:31:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- similar objectives, sure! -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Image Conscious -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT)

EddyTheTurtle -:- Nigel's trilobyte -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:33:41 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Nigel's trilobyte -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- Nigel's trilobyte -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:18:11 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Nigel's trilobyte -:- Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:51:25 (GMT)

AJW -:- Eddy/Teddy could you email me please? (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Question. -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Answer to Salam, Jim, Joe and Marianne -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:11:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Just like to say that your post has been lost..nt -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- FA what happened to AJW post?.....nt -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- It's reposted above (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:51:36 (GMT)

Ralph -:- Why? -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:03:12 (GMT)
__ Alf -:- Because I like it, that is why -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 02:16:22 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- To warn others. Duh! nt -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)
__ Look -:- Look what he did to YOU !!!! NT -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 04:51:27 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Ralph / Rudy etc.. -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:43:47 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Why the hell are you singling out me? Do you... -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Why not? -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:13:59 (GMT)

TED Farkel-DV Premie -:- Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos? -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:47:56 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos? -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- BETTER THAN C.S. LEWIS' 'SCREW YOU' LETTERS -:- Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:18:45 (GMT)
__ EddyTheTurtle -:- Early days Dope Heads -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:19:09 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Early days Dope Heads -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 23:07:53 (GMT)
__ Gaga geegee -:- Make sure the windows are open with the rollies -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 09:22:38 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos? -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 02:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ Molly -:- Beer is ok- but not belching. NT -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 05:54:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Harper Lee -:- Belching is a Redneck;s Holy Breath nt -:- Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 07:03:17 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:27:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dettmers (re-posted b/c I drew another blank below
Message:
The premie forum monitors are watching you now, saying, Go Yves, GO John T, shut him UP!!!

But it's not as if MD's exactly singing like a canary, is it?

Honestly, Susan, is there any reason to expect that Michael's going to do anything further?

I'm not saying that he necessarily won't. Sure, he might wake up tomorrow and decide that his confidentiality agreement isn't enforceable given the fact that he made it with his former cult leader, for god's sake. He might even be willing to disclose all, including whatever material benefit he took with him when he left. (Personally, I got a sleeping bag the ashram had bought me about five years earlier. But why complain? I didn't get saddled with any ashram debt, at least. By leaving on my own a year before the Hamster closed the cages, I avoided that 'opportunity for service'.) And, yes, maybe Michael will one day truly face the unique chance he has to do some good in the world, by telling a story that just has to be deflating for the Janice Wilsons of the world.

But, Susan, is there any reason to expect that? You've talked with him at length. Maybe more than than me at this point, but I've talked with him too. You established a rapport with him and yes, on the single, discrete issue of Jagdeo, Michael did the decent thing and forwarded your letter. Good for him. I've already said that, in a certain sense, that might have been a bit of a bold move on his part. Yet I also take Joe's criticism of giving Michael even that much credit for doing so. I mean, in the circumstances, given the issue, given how nice you are -- :) -- what else could he do?

You know, it's not as if Michael rolled up his sleeves and actually confronted Maharaji on your behalf or anything. He just forwarded your letter. That's it.

But what about, as Paul Harvey would say, 'the REST of the story'? Where's the beef, Susan? Michael has made it abundantly clear that he will not help fill in the real picture of the real Maharaji. He wrote a very questionable few posts that, in light of his own satsangs of the time, seem like whitewashed, safe, sanitized history. When confronted with that, he's chosen to remain silent.

So you tell me how much difference it makes that people like Yves tell it like they see it? Dettmers is no fool. He knows that he's gotten a full, natural spectrum of reaction here. He knows what it takes to establish trust and respect and he knows how little he's done in that regard.

And, you know what, I don't know if you've ever gotten into this in particular with him, but I'm still not satisfied that he was candid with me, personally, or any of us here, when he responded to Manmot's story about the Santa Ysidro 'intervention'. Someone's lying about that and, quite frankly, given his stated refusal to dish any 'dirt' on Maharaji, given his own possibly precarious interests with respect to his non-disclosure contract with the devil, given Manmot's apparent intelligence and sincerity and given her account of the reliabiltiy of her source, it is still, very, very possible, that Michael's lied about that 'event'. Too bad EV's not selling the video.

Next time you talk with Michael, if there is a next time, Susan, why don't you broach the subject of 'co-opting'. Ask him if he thinks that he's got anything to gain by making friends with one or two ex-premies. Ask him about the big picture. And ask him just how much of our money he got when he left.

You might want to ask him further if he feels that his honesty is compromised by his contractual obligations. It would help if you could watch his pupils on that one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just to recapapitulate
Message:
Michael Dettmers,(http://www.oz.net/~drek/dettmers/dettmers.html) now president of Gylanix solutions (http://www.gylanix.com/) was Canadian national director circa 1974-75 and Rawat's personal advisor later.

Michael's resumé posted on Gylanix's site mentions his involvment in a Swiss based 'foundation' for Rawat which appears to be some sort of financial/fiscal scam.

Altough Michael was aware then Rawat wasn't what he pretended to be, he kept presenting him as divine by nature, thus having crowd of devotees deluded.

When they parted more than a decade ago, Michael seemed to have benefited from a cash settlement against a non-disclosure agreement.

To this day, Michael refused to reveal any information about Rawat. Some naughty ex-premie is very talkative about this hoping Michael changes his underwear while some other is apalled by this and tries to protect Michael from shame. This is where we left-off below.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:34:43 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Just to recapitulate (right spelling now)
Message:
From the Michael Dettmers page with Roger's site, it seem Michael got his MBA from a flim-flam bogus internet university.

http://www.oz.net/~drek/dettmers/dettmers.html

Thank Roger for the research. That's class for classes.

Now for the ethical part of our program.

In my country, it is illegal to obtain wealth earned in an illegal way. That's why criminals need to get their money laudered and money-laundering is a crime in its own right.

Fine, swell and dandy.

Given that, I argue it is immoral to obtain wealth earned in an immoral way. That being said, since Rawat's wealth was earned immorally (although legally), share of it obtained by MD as a cash-settlement against a non-dsclosure agreement is illegitimate. If the karma-superstition was to be true, it would account for his poor dressing-taste and hair-loss.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:22:11 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Update on this spilled on the French Forum
Message:
Too bad. It just crossed the ocean.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:42:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim and FA
Subject: Jim/FA another error posting. Try again Jim nt
Message:
This happened to me yesterday
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:55:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Okay, here's my third try (to Susan, by the way)
Message:
The premie forum monitors are watching you now, saying, Go Yves, GO John T, shut him UP!!!

But it's not as if MD's exactly singing like a canary, is it?

Honestly, Susan, is there any reason to expect that Michael's going to do anything further?

I'm not saying that he necessarily won't. Sure, he might wake up tomorrow and decide that his confidentiality agreement isn't enforceable given the fact that he made it with his former cult leader, for god's sake. He might even be willing to disclose all, including whatever material benefit he took with him when he left. (Personally, I got a sleeping bag the ashram had bought me about five years earlier. But why complain? I didn't get saddled with any ashram debt, at least. By leaving on my own a year before the Hamster closed the cages, I avoided that 'opportunity for service'.) And, yes, maybe Michael will one day truly face the unique chance he has to do some good in the world, by telling a story that just has to be deflating for the Janice Wilsons of the world.

But, Susan, is there any reason to expect that? You've talked with him at length. Maybe more than than me at this point, but I've talked with him too. You established a rapport with him and yes, on the single, discrete issue of Jagdeo, Michael did the decent thing and forwarded your letter. Good for him. I've already said that, in a certain sense, that might have been a bit of a bold move on his part. Yet I also take Joe's criticism of giving Michael even that much credit for doing so. I mean, in the circumstances, given the issue, given how nice you are -- :) -- what else could he do?

You know, it's not as if Michael rolled up his sleeves and actually confronted Maharaji on your behalf or anything. He just forwarded your letter. That's it.

But what about, as Paul Harvey would say, 'the REST of the story'? Where's the beef, Susan? Michael has made it abundantly clear that he will not help fill in the real picture of the real Maharaji. He wrote a very questionable few posts that, in light of his own satsangs of the time, seem like whitewashed, safe, sanitized history. When confronted with that, he's chosen to remain silent.

So you tell me how much difference it makes that people like Yves tell it like they see it? Dettmers is no fool. He knows that he's gotten a full, natural spectrum of reaction here. He knows what it takes to establish trust and respect and he knows how little he's done in that regard.

And, you know what, I don't know if you've ever gotten into this in particular with him, but I'm still not satisfied that he was candid with me, personally, or any of us here, when he responded to Manmot's story about the Santa Ysidro 'intervention'. Someone's lying about that and, quite frankly, given his stated refusal to dish any 'dirt' on Maharaji, given his own possibly precarious interests with respect to his non-disclosure contract with the devil, given Manmot's apparent intelligence and sincerity and given her account of the reliabiltiy of her source, it is still, very, very possible, that Michael's lied about that 'event'. Too bad EV's not selling the video.

Next time you talk with Michael, if there is a next time, Susan, why don't you broach the subject of 'co-opting'. Ask him if he thinks that he's got anything to gain by making friends with one or two ex-premies. Ask him about the big picture. And ask him just how much of our money he got when he left.

You might want to ask him further if he feels that his honesty is compromised by his contractual obligations. It would help if you could watch his pupils on that one.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:13:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Jim
Message:
I'll call you I would rather talk about this off forum.
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:01:26 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Some speculations while we're left-out
Message:
Why does Susan who established herself as a Jagdeo victim want to protect Michael Dettmers who was a DLM fat-ass during the Trivinanand-rape-spree and is accountable for doing less than necessary to prevent it? We can only speculate. She undertands Yves who is rabid-determined to put pressure on MD could be silenced by Jim whom he trusts. She'll talk to Jim and explain:

1) she intends to bring the Jagdeo affair before the court of law and needs MD's cooperation which is getting wasted by Yves'conversation. Jim'll agree and ask Yves to stop it. He will.

2) she considers Yves'attitude as uncivilized and would prefer him to behave with the same class MD is showing. She'll spend long-distance money talking to Jim about this. He'll disagree given, like everyone knows, class sometimes produce lampshades and soap.

3) MD is such a nice person, she's totally disgusted some low-life even considers behaving with such a cultic manner towards someone she regards with utmost respect. He'll argue she should question her respect for MD who didn't act to stop Tribinanand when he should given 'not knowing at he time' is not arguable for the fat-ass he was.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:32:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Some speculations while we're left-out
Message:
Dear Yves:

You said, 'Why does Susan who established herself as a Jagdeo victim want to protect Michael Dettmers who was a DLM fat-ass during the Trivinanand-rape-spree and is accountable for doing less than necessary to prevent it? We can only speculate.

And speculate you have. I think there's a difference between protecting and being reasonable. I more than understand your desire to hear what Michael has to say. I'd love to hear what he has to say also, but I think your pit bull tactics and veiled and not-so-veiled threats and accusations toward Dettmers is counterproductive and provides an obstacle to achieving the very thing you desire: for Dettmers to speak out.

I also think your take on Susan's motivations are way way off base. I am sure that Susan would like to hear what Dettmers has to say on a variety of topics, but she also understands that complexities exist, creating a grey world which you appear to think is black or white.

So, bottom line, I think if you quit threatening Dettmers chances are that Dettmers will speak out.

Take care
Monmot

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 16:37:50 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Anything yet?
Message:
I know. I've got to be patient. We haven't been patient enough with him.

Tee-dee-lee-pom.
Tee-dee-lee-doo.

Anything? You're certain?

Tee-dee-lee-pom.
Tee-dee-lee-doo.

How much longer should I wait?
Do you expect his feelings to hurt much longer?

Tee-dee-lee-pom.
Tee-dee-lee-doo.

Has anyone heard of him?

Tee-dee-lee-pom.
Tee-dee-lee-doo.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 19:45:11 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Tee-dee-lee-doo's third day
Message:
'You just sign here. It's in every contract. We call it a 'Sanity clause.'

'You can't fool me. I know there is no Santa Clause.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 16:42:24 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Tee-dee-lee-pom's second day: bored
Message:
Have you heard anything yet?

Tee-dee-lee-pom
Tee-dee-lee-doo

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:14:22 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: P.S.:
Message:
I don't think it is fair to say I threaten MD. You may elect to say

'I talk openly about his questionable morals to the point he may find it harrassing'
'I say it as it is regardless of his not-liking-it'
'I am asking tough questions'
'I started an MD responsibility campaign'

As far as 'threatening MD' is concerned, I don't think I ever did. You may argue I once 'promised him...' or 'warned him...' but I don't believe he ever found it threatening otherwise, he would have taken it seriously.

That was my first point.

My second point is:

I don't think it is a matter of goodwill. Many times was MD invited to cooperate in all sorts of polite ways by all sorts of polite people. If he ever had the glimse of a will to do so, he would have. This is no time to give him a chance anymore. This is the time to induce cooperation. Maybe his feelings are hurt and, given he could do so without the appearences of being forced, he would cooperate. What's your word for 'speculation'?

Many times, I sent him email stating a willing cooperation then was preferable to an unavoidable cooperation later.

If he'd listen, I'd argue a cooperation now is preferable to an unavoidable cooperation later. Why would I? He doesn't listen.

What does the future hold for him?

-Some day in court when he'll be asked tough and maybe incriminating questions. (One can speculate he helped Susan out of fear the agression by Jagdeo could end-up a court case where he would be called as a withess.) Other potential court cases may get him to take the stand.

-Some frontpage story where he may be made to look like a creep in front of the court of public opinion. News organizations started to receive release. One of these days, one of them is bound to pay attention.

-He'll keep being asked harrassing questions on the web he'll try his best to ignore. This is no great fun for someone trying to make a business of sound management advices, whose clients are Internet-litterate and could end-up on the Forum or Roger's page when, on Yahoo they search for 'Dettmers' or 'Gylanix'.

-We all are going to forget about him and suddenly shift our interest towards news, weather and sport.

-He'll hire a lawyer and silence criticism.

-He won't listen and continue to act as if nothing was happening hoping the pit-bull will go to sleep.

-He'll talk ex-premies into controling the pit-bull.

-He'll trick us into thinking he's cooperating.

-He'll tough it until the pressure is so great and the damage so extensive, he's willing to talk.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: P.S.:
Message:
Jesus, Yves, when you said you'd give the pit bull a rest, I figured it'd be for more than an hour and a half.

Maybe it's me, but the phrase induce cooperation which you used has the distinct aura, a certain je ne sais quoi about it, perhaps one of, shall we say, force? Last time I checked, force is not a particularly effective tool, unless you're thinking of unshuttered high-voltage lights and a rubber hose. Perhaps it's just your use of language, but in a matter like this, I think it's worth your while to slow down and think a bit more precisely about what it is you're trying to say, and proceed from there.

As for your statement, in one of the many scenarios you painted, or the speculations you're in the process of entertaining, He'll talk ex-premies into controling the pit-bull, I assume you're referring to my attempt to reason with you and to ask you to consider some of the grey areas (and I don't mean brains) involved. First of all, Dettmers has not 'talked me into controlling the pit-bull,' and I doubt, at this point in my life, that someone could talk me into doing something I don't want to do. I've given to that black hole of a charity too many times already. I dreamt up my request to you all by my lonesome, as difficult as that may appear to be to you, with no coercion by anyone or anything other than a response to common sense.

I assume that you, like any normal human being, doesn't like to be 'forced' to do anything, even if it's something you fully intended to do in the first place. Perhaps you could accord Dettmers, and anyone else for that matter, the same respect toward a person's dignity as you would like to be accorded yourself.

Once again, I would like to hear what Dettmers has to say, which is why I am responding to you.

Thanks again
M

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:43:05 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Some speculations while we're left-out
Message:
Altough I don't have a natural tendency to agree with the ideas you expressed above, I'll take them into account for the time being and put the pit-bull to rest for now.
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:49:12 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Thanks nt
Message:
l
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 16:32:28 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Some speculations-2 ...
Message:
Susan may feel uneasy because she thinks she's responsible. She may think Micheal would have been saved from all this it if wasn't for his involvement with her in the Jagdeo affair.

On the contrary, as far as I am concerned, all this would have been much stronger without MD's involvement with Susan. Given his recently acquired goodwill points, the offer was emailed off-forum first to save him the embarassement. He failed to answer.

I had previously sent a copy of my email to MD to some forum participants and asked for feed-back.

Furthermore, he previously received more calls about this and alway either failed to answer or answered in a way that is meant to have us believe he has lost part of his brains while choking on nectar.

Micheal's cooperation would have been called again soon and the 'Jagdeo events' only hurried it. It is a good thing since it came at a point when MD had started to earn points. Will he keep them? We'll see. I hope he does.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:06:56 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Quit speculating about Susan
Message:
Yves: You are way, way off base in your speculation about Susan and her motives. Susan is not the enemy. Rotwat is. Focus your attention on him, not her.

Susan did not 'set herself up' as a 'Jagdeo victim'. She was sexually victimized by this DLM sponsored predator when she was a just barely a teenager. Saying that she 'set herself up' suggests that she knowingly encouraged and invited Jagdeo's behavior, which I asssure you, she did not. Your post is very offensive for that reason.

Secondly, whatever criticisms you have of Michael Dettmers are best directed to him, not Susan. Susan was quite courageous in writing to M and EV and confronting them about the misrepresentations in the FAQ's. I think Michael's assistance in ensuring that Susan's letter got to Rotwat is laudable.

The only thing that these kinds of posts is accomplishing is creating bad feelings among exes, who should be supporting each other. In-fighting on the forum is something that the folks and the attorneys over at the cult take great interest in. You are adding fuel to the fire, and undermining good work done by Susan, when you cast baseless aspersions on her character.

At great personal expense, Susan came forward on this website and told her story about being abused by Jagdeo, and about having alerted the cult to Jagdeo's behavior many, many years ago. Susan posted here under a moniker 'G's Mom' for a long time because she was not ready to identify herself. Her posts allowed Abi to come forward and tell an even more horrifying tale of repeated sexual abuse by Jagdeo. Susan finally decided that she should make her identity public on the forum. And she took the incredibly courageous step of writing directly to Rotwat to confront him about the fact that she had reported Jagdeo's behavior to DLM many years ago. Her behavior has been exemplary here, and should be an inspiration to us all. Your nasty insinuations are an injustice to her and you ought to stop.


Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What wrong here is?
Message:
Susan is mad at me. She don't want to explain. She shut me out. What am I left to play with. Speculations and my thing. I made a list of possible arguments she may object if we were in talking terms and argued by myself. Chances she will read it and reflect on in. Now you ask me to stop arguing with myself. Any way I slice it, I can't understand why would anyone defend Michael against my plain questioning him. I know some find me obnoxious but, hell, that's just the way I am. I flunked classes on acting normal. I went into therapy and came-out determined to accept my handicap. I've been called more names than the phone book.
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:45:25 (GMT)
From: JohmT
Email: None
To: Eveyone
Subject: Hear ! Hear!
Message:
Yves, you've turned up some interesting stuff about Dettmers - and I've responded to sharpen the focus here and here again.

But my responses to clarify and sharpen issues around Dettmers are just that. People must make of the pictures we paint what they will.

Nous pouvons partager un échiquier, mon ami, mais les mouvements chacun des marques doivent être nos propres

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:43:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Well said, Marianne
Message:
Yves should think about what you've written, and maybe try and put himself in Susan's shoes, IF he's to get any insight into the bravery that she's already shown.

Mind you, I guess that the more Susan acclimatises herself to the kind of questions that WOULD be asked IF she took this thing further - well, ... I can see why that could be a big 'if' for her.

If this got further than just a thread in the Forum - like - in the newspapers, - she'd have to deal with being the focus of a LOT of speculation from many different parties, not all of them supportive.

Perhaps Yves' posts are a taste of that, and can help her make up her mind as to whether or not she's prepared to take this further. And that's a choice for HER alone to make.

One thing I'm sure of, somewhat shocking though it is to realise, and it's this: The fact that she only rarely posts on the Forum is, from a 'public-image' point of view, actually in her favour.
.
.
.
PS. I sometimes wonder whether the extremism of some of the posts here doesn't actually diminish the effectiveness of ex-premie.org's presence on the internet.

I personally would vote for the Forum and the info-site becoming two separate entities.

Why? Well, to any uninvolved onlooker, can you imagine how it must look? The once-fanatic supporters of a guru getting just as obsessed and fanatic about him - but this time from the opposite side of the court?

If the abuse allegations get to be a public issue, (OK they are public already, but what I mean is more widely-known) then the FACTS have to be the important thing.

And if the opinions expressed on the Forum are detrimental to the impact of the facts exposed on ex-premie.org ..., well, you see where I'm coming from?

Best wishes,

Chris

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 05:16:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Why?
Message:
What is the secret? This subject concerns all of us. What is
the point of discussing it in private?
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 07:08:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Pardon me, Salam ...
Message:
... and I do hope you forgive my saying this, but surely that is up to Susan and Jim.

I mean, I feel I understand your concern - to use Yves martial analogy, we're all playing on the same chess board. But people may well find particular developments hard to stomach for all sorts of reasons which are in no way public business.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to enjoy a private conversation. Ex-premies no less than anyone else!

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:41:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I do not questioning the right for privacy.
Message:
If someone has something that is private, then s/he should keep it that way and not drag it in the open then changes his/her mind and decides latter that it is private.

What I am asking is simple. If there is information that concerens everyone then it should be told, otherwise keep it to yourself to start with.

lol

Salam

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 11:15:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: That should read: I do not question......nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:15:31 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I agree with Salam
Message:
Sorry..but this is a fundemental and an important point to all of us...If Susan wants to have her own private chat with Jim thats ok...but what Jim said to her is quite right...all MD did was forward her lette...she doesnt have to go over the moon on MD...MD knows toooo much...and he should tell all....why is he keeping quite...does he really think that M is running a scam...well if he does he should say so...
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:02:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help needed to update recent history page
Message:
That old History after 1983

page is a bit outdated.

Who would like to help me updating this ?

What about

1/ 1983 - 1992: The Maharaji era
EVs appearing in various countries.
Rejoices, k reviews with m, trying to have premies 'practising'.
Hundreds of part-time instructors.
Not much success in terms of propagation. Programs' attendance doesn't increase.
Huge fundraisings for the jets.
The Lears story.
Anybody remembers dates and which jet purchased.

2/ 1992 (not sure of the date) - Videos era
M decides to prepare aspirants and give k himself,
and fires all part-time instructors.

3/ 1999 Satellite era
Less and less programs and attendance.
Smartcard systems.

Anybody wanting to elaborate ?????

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:21:12 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: From Guru is Greater than God: to God in the Flesh
Message:
...and how about, listen up, you dummies: stop using a baragon, you guys! I know the mahatmas told you to use baragons, but stop using them. So what if Lord Shiva used one, too?!

remember?

...also, it's ok to do the techniques lying down; just don't fall asleep.

You know, like, when you're on the road, traveling from continent to continent with the hired help in your brand-new private jet (paid for with premie donations to EVI - oops, no no, please, write the check this other way, ok? don't ask us, why; that's not important), and you've just said good night to Kathy (your personal secretary) and to ol' Patrick (your personal valet) and you're settled down for the night on the king-size bed in your lousy presidential suite (at the Plaza, Excelsior, Hilton, Plaza-Athenee, Royal Imperial, etc.) [It's kind of hard to imagine, though, for a paisano like me -- after all, we were staying at the Motel 6s and other roach hotels in those days (or sleeping in a bag on a garage floor), whenever we'd sell our stuff or pack up our lives to go to some festival.]

more specific dates, anyone?

PS: I still have my baragon; as you get older, the arms get more tired!

PMS (Post M.Syndrome): [herein entitled: From Guru is Greater than God (because he reveals God), to Guru is God in the Flesh]

Was I out of the loop on the Westport Yacht Project, or what? But, I think I understand. I mean, you know, when the aviation fuel gets too expensive, or the FAA bans another polluting plane (like the 707 - garage sale, anyone?), the Lord might need that funky little 106-foot dinghy to get around -- also, to relax, because it must be awful hard sometimes being Lord of the entire Universe. That's a big job, after all. By the way, what about the suffering in Rwanda, Kosovo, Ethiopia, etc.? Don't ask, don't tell -- Right, I mean, 'if you feed those people today, they'll just be hungry again tomorrow', right? Well, you obviously know what you're talking about, sir...

And you know, 'the guy driving the Lincoln, well he's had money a long long time, but now, the Mercedes -- 'the practical man',' right? But then, I wouldn't know... 'cause we were all bozos on that old VW bus! But, I'm really looking forward to that first million, so I can have the second million to protect the first million, and then the four million to protect the two million, and so forth... Wow, that Maya sure looks nice -- ain't it sweet?!!

I better sign off here soon, so I can earn $30 today and apply it toward my first million -- what inspiration! Hey, I don't need the money -- why don't I just give it to the Lord of the Universe. He'll know what to do with it, right?! Yep, I had the honor of polishing that green Rolls Royce with the Hans license plate. Why is it that M., Sai Baba, and the late Rajneesh (Osho) have all favored the most expensive cars in the world? Because they can... They're beyond the Maya, right? I mean, after you have one Rolls Royce, then you need an Aston Martin, and then you need a Mercedes, and then you need a Lamborghini, and then you need a G-4 jet, right, to keep up with Bill Gates and the Emir of Dubai. Only the best will do!

Boy, did Buddha, Jesus, Lao'ste, and Ramakrishna miss out!! I mean, Buddha, he renounced an entire kingdom to attain enlightenment and be the satguru. But today, you can have it all -- just like the commercial says, right? When I see Buddha welcoming me in the Light, I'll have to tell him about this for you, sir; he must have been deluded, right? Duh. What inspiration -- this defies all the teachings of the ancients, except Krishna. Now, wait a second -- if you were something like a reincarnation of Krishna, you could be the Lord and a great rich king, too. Absolutely brilliant idea! But you need the right outfit: the suit and especially the crown, so other people will get the same idea symbolically, too. [Hey, no offense meant: I know it's just a costume, like a cowboy outfit, or a pilot's uniform, after all.]

To provide the lifestyle worthy of the living Lord of the Universe, there must be Devotion by the premies to the Guru. {STOP: wait a sec, nothing in this physical universe is good enough for the Lord of the Universe -- who created it, after all -- from Guru reveals God, to Guru is Greater than God, to Guru is now God in the flesh -- let's apocalyptic Christianize the cult-speak, so to speak [for the dumb Westerners], just like the Romans did when they appropriated the Gnostic teachings (Nazarene-Essene).}

Now back to: there must be Devotion by the premies to the Guru. Kind of like Ramakrishna had for his satguru, Tota Puri? Oops, mistake. Ramakrishna met Tota Puri, received the techniques, then after 11 months -- bye bye, guru. 'Tota... had proved, as many others had proved before him, that devotion is not essential for the attainment of the highest spiritual experience.' [quoted from Ramakrishna and his Disciples, by Christopher Isherwood] Please forget I ever mentioned that one, ok? Is that heresy, or what?

Also, didn't Tota Puri eventually come to realize that even a satguru himself is subject to fall prey to the power of Maya (the illusion) -- when his student, Ramakrishna, pointed it out (to him) one time when Tota totally lost his temper? Oops, that would infer that a satguru is not necessarily perfect, and could be tempted by illusion, too, while in a human body. Wasn't Jesus tempted,too? You could be a great king and have power on this earth. Oops, I must be in my mind -- because if I follow this trend, pretty soon I might start thinking that M. is just another person with Knowledge, who fell prey to worldly temptations and is using the Knowledge and his position for his own selfish personal gain in the material world. Oh, please forgive us, for our tormented thoughts...

Never leave room for doubt -- doubts about M., or doubt in our own selves, our own intuition, our own innate intelligence, and in our own mutual Creator?

Dang, with our knowledge gained now, maybe we should have set ourselves up, too. Like that Nigerian satguru Guru Maharaj ji who was on trial for murder recently. Now, my question is: Was that an imposter, or was it the Lord just manifesting another body? And, if we were all to suddenly become Guru Maharaj ji's, too -- then, wouldn't that be like a manifestation of 10,000 forms of the Lord? Kind of like, the reverse of: I'm Spartacus, no I'm Spartacus, no I'm Spartacus.

Well, so much for chit-chat. I think it's time to go meditate -- let's go inside and party with the real Lord of the Universe!!!!! Will the real Lord of the Universe please stand up? Thank you.

Peace

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:08:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Would you like the actual documents?
Message:
The plane info, dates, letters on the subject, pictures,
email at
bburke@rocketmail.com
I will add a stack for you next to my Jim and Joe piles.
address please.
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:16:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hey bill?
Message:
why don't you post this here ?

Main dates and events, whatever you have and remember.
Say what documents you own, but don't spam my email box with all this junk !!

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:06:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey bill!
Message:
Hi JM. well there is so much I am not sure.....I guess I will just start and you will ask for this or that further detail.
I was going to real mail you the actual stuff. That is always an option if you do want some of it.
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 19:24:38 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What about the 90s
Message:
What about the 90s ?
After he's fired all the part time instructors, he started to prepare
the aspirants and have k sessions with 'His aspirants'.
Lots of programs happened around this.
He would rent huge facilities, like in Brighton.
He would have aspirants meetings and selections in one part
of the building,
premies would be in the main hall and watch the video feed of
the aspir's meetings all day.
Then you would have a general program in the evening,
with everybody in the main hall.
The k sessions would happen during the event (3-5 days events), or after
the main event when the premies were gone.
That's been a typical setup for years.
Sometimes only asp meetings and no k sessions during the event,
sometimes k sessions only (he'd meet with the asp befor the main event),
so that the premies would knoww 'something' was happening !!
Depending on the length of the program.
That's been a big thing for years, till the end of the 90s.

Same time, the video thing became a huge operation.
Visions started to handle all this, big team in Thousand Oaks, big team traveling
with Rawat, in order to have the video released asap after the events.
He'd make about 2 world tours for a few years in the mid 90s, and an average
of 13 new videos were released every month.
That pace slowed down quite a bit in the end of the 90s.
Lot of pressure from Visions to get more and more royalties/video fees from the premies and the various countries.

He got the G4 around 96-97.
Lots of improvements and constructions in Amaroo
and SantYogAshram at the same time.

More details and important stuff I forgot?


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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:03:58 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Loud applause for you J-M (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 11:02:59 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Jean-Michel is doing the job of a monk
Message:
Most of us probably don't see it, but J-M is doing important work he and deserve a round of applause.
CLAP-CLAP-CLAP.
During a previous lifetime, he may have been a monk and poisoned himself by licking his page-turning finger laced with arsenic. (reference to that flick 'Name of the rose' in case someone didn't get it)

During another previous lifetime he may have been a baba, a saddhu or a mahatma. Cool! Baba-cool.

Sorry. For your request, I wasn't around then.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:26:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 80s
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

Wasn't it around 87 when he started doing knowledge reviews himself- maybe as a practice for giving knowledge later.

And wasn't it some time around then that he did a U turn on meditation, telling everyone to stop 'Constantly meditating on 'holy name' and only practice that technique sitting down more formally, and not to push their eyeballs too hard too.

Anth, it's coming back slowly.

(Mon internet acces chez-moi va bien maintenant Jean-Michel.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:12:07 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: eye ball squeezing
Message:
the reform from eyeball squeezing happened in the late '70s. I went to a Knowledge review myself where an initiator told us not to squeeze our eyeballs anymore. This was pre Rawat giving K reviews himself ( I was long gone by that era ).

I have to wonder if premies were getting eye injuries from pressing too hard and thus the change.

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 20:31:01 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: JM told me someone lost an eye.
Message:
It was an Ashram premie in Bry sur Marne. Was it because of this nonsensical ritual?

How are you today? Have you noticed how I managed to control myself these last hours? Will we ever get back to be in talking terms if I somewhat respect your conditions and never again mention ....... ........?

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 13:44:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: rejoices in the 80s?
Message:
I remember Rawat started to say that in the mid-80s .... maybe 87, I'm not sure the dates ....

We had programs in France in Le Touquet and in Lyon where he adressed the issue for the 1st time. I remember I was in the translation booth, and was the 1st surprised to hear this.

Or maybe he's already spoken about it previously, but in small conferences .........

Anybody?

Maybe THAT's been a very important turn in the post Indian era?

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:24:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: End of Satsang
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

Wasn't it sometime around the 80s he told everyone to stop telling people about knowledge, and bring them along to watch him introduce it on a video instead.

'Satsang' disappeared sometime didn't it?

He became the only personallowed to reveal it, and also the only one allowed to talk about it.

Anth, still misses the sound of his own voice.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: and beragons !!
Message:
There were not that many videos at that time !

The real video era when he started to have ALL HIS SATSANG distributed on videos started in the early 90s. I'll find the dates, I still have a list of ALL existing videos befor I left.

OK, he started the videos in the second midst of the 80s, and he insisted the premeis not to talk about k to anybody, and bring them to videos and instructors meetings. The instructors job was to introduce the videos, and handle the aspirants. That started in the late 80s, and lasted for about 5 years.

Then he fired everybody, and decided he would do everything himself.

Do you remember of imporatnt events during that era ?

More and more westerners started to go to India again, twice a year, H jayanti, and Holi, where the whole devotional trip was still going on.

That's when the double language became a bit difficult ....... He was trying to present himself in West as a master, a regular human being, but in India, same old story !!

That's been very disturbing (for me anyway), and kept most of the old premies happy.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:43:13 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel-auto k baby...
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Doing OK,but wouldn't mind a little 'holy company'
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-
TED Farkel here, just finishing up at the shop after a long week of work,and I just started readin your most inspiring sermon on how to do a little 'prachar' or spreading of the holy knowledge down here in Mobile.
Now that's a mighty tall order,Mr. eDrek,and ole TED's gonna have to go slow on this one before he tries to fill those big shoes and big chair that our lord fills up...
But I do recognize that you are a man possessed by, amongst other things (?), a finely tuned intellect,great attention to detail and historical facts,and a devilish sort of sense of humour.
Now I'm not selling myself,ole TED Farkel, short, but it may take me awhile to get up to speed, so to speak, with some of you old timers,especially when it comes to startin my own little followin down here at Farkel's Transmission Repair Shop...
So I was wonderin, could we start a series of dialogues between us, so that I could refresh myself with some of the more important historical facts and aspects of our lord's work?
I also need to know our master's philosophy concerning major issues in our lives,and I thought you might be the one to expound on those important points that he might have made in the past.
I think these dialogs, they could be called, the 'Farkel-Drek dialogues', could begin during this presidential debate season...besides, I don't have too much to do, cause my man Pat Buchanan aint lookin too good in the polls....

So, if it's OK with you Mr. eDrek,I'd like to start with a big question about one of the burning issues of the day.

Relationships-what does our lord tell us to do about relationships?See, part of this is personal, cause I've got a big time crush on Pauline Premiue and Janice Wilson from Baldwinsville,NY...they seem like two real sharp gals;synchronized,right devotional,full of gratitude... and I'd like to approach at least one of them and begin the 'courtin' process, but just aint exactly sure how it's done in the premie world.
Any advice?

TED Farkel
Devoted new premie,but also lookin for some 'holy company',on the side....

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:46:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: TED Farkel-auto k baby...
Subject: Try this Ted.
Message:
First select a potential partner.

Then walk over and say to her, 'Hi, I'm Ted Farkel. I'm new to all this spiritual stuff. I only just got knowledge. Could you answer a question for me? When I practise, all these negative thoughts come into my...' then, a long, dramatic pause mid-sentence, look into her eyes and say '...Hey. Do you believe in soulmates? Like two souls, come to earth, time after time, to be together. And when they meet, this incredible feeling goes between..., like to come for a herb tea? I've got a certificate in oldshu massage.'

Anth the Agony Aunt

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 21:14:26 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Try this Ted.
Message:
Boy no wonder you seem to be having a problem with the '90's. All your scripts seem to be coming from the '70's. Did you blow your brain cells out with too many joints, man!
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:07:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Time warp Eric
Message:
Hi Eric,

I'm stuck in the 60s, not the 70s. I got incarcerated in a religious cult, and it retarded my development.

And I blew my brains out on acid, not weed.

I'm not having any kind of problem with the 90s Eric. It's the 00s that are doing my head in.

Which decade are you stuck in Eric? If you're following a Master from the Radhoswami baloney tradition, like my old teacher, I'd take a wild stab and say you're stuck somewhere around the 3rd Century BC- head full of Master-Teacher-Meditation-Transcend this illusory world bollocks.

Anth the 'Eight Miles High, and when I touch down, there will be happiness (except I can't find the ground.) Eric, send me some drugs quick, I'm losing it man. Cough medecine, battery acid, anything man, it's the only thing that shuts the green grubs in my head up...shit...where are my shoes...who's fucking house is this...oh shit...it's ok man...I'm from the gas board...I'm checking my emails...no...don't shoot...aaaaagh.....drugs I must have more drugs...
(Didn't he used to teach Maharaji's children once?)

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 00:50:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! And I've got pictures! (nt)
Message:
adsf
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:51:53 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Try this Ted.
Message:
Oh yea. The old 'would you like a blissful massage, sister?' routine nearly almost always worked. You might not get into total synchronization always, but you sure got to let your hands do some roaming! It was so ridiculous because this little routine became so common BECAUSE premies were not suppose to be focusing on physical gratification (or mental either). No that was BEING IN YOUR OLD MIND! But a blissful massage was SERVICE!

So a lot of premies played this little 'innocent' game of massage. Hilarious. Rarely was it ever admitted to being anything but blissful service that just 'followed the flow'.
How else could people touch each other?

(And it truly WAS BLISSFUL!)

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:13:19 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Or, you didn't receive the 'Fifth Technique'?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 13:33:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: and read Boris's journey....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Great Journey
Message:
I'd not read that one.

His tips on picking up premie women look so good I'm considering infiltrating myself back into the cult.

Anth the don't tell my wife

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 05:06:03 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: TED Farkel-auto k baby...
Subject: Damn, now I know how the Master feels
Message:
Holy Christ, TED Farkel! I'm starting to understand just how much work it is to be a Maharaji with always having to answer dumb questions all day long. I can see that I'm going need to get me a house on the hill with some twenty-four hour a day protection.

Yes, TED, this is an opportunity for the both of us. Actually, this is an opportunity for all of us. You see, TED, it has been mentioned lately here on the Ex-Forum that maybe what we really needed to do on our spiritual paths was to go beyond Maharaji. Keep and practice his sacred and ancient Knowledge but cut him out of the picture. After all, what you are looking for is inside of YOU! And that's what Maharaji himself says. But, how can a brand new premie stay on the path without any guidance. God knows that those videos are completely useless except for the cash they bring home to papa. What ya got is some middle aged spoiled to the hilt rube with an eighth grade education telling everybody not to bother with their family, friends, careers, health or retirement as he tells you a long winded story about his wristwatch collection and how much he loves flying his G4. And stuff like how he knows not to sit on the grass in a public park because it might be dirty. Yeah, right. TED, you need this guy like a hole in the head.

And look at Maharaji's track record. Where's the 144,000? Where's the peace on earth? Where's my fucking piece of the action? I mean how many people does the Master really have left. Not many, TED. Maharaji's been a total failure. He's batting next to zero. Sure, he's got everybody's dough. That's fine for him, but what about you and everybody else?

But, there's hope! We, the ex-premies, can help you. We can show you that path because we've went down it and we know the pitfalls. You've got Knowledge now, TED, but it's time to walk the walk and go down the spiritual path. We will collectively hold your hand as you walk down the path.

Sadly, however, it is way too late for many of us hardened ex-premies to ever consider getting back on the spiritual path. Many of us are too far gone, shattered into too many millions of pieces, rotten to the core like a ton of rotten vegetables.

But you, TED, you are still young and fresh with the heart of a child. You are stilling floating along on that grace that comes with receiving Knowledge. You are just beginning to feel THAT appreciation of appreciation, THAT gratitude of feeling grateful, THAT love, THAT feeling, THAT place.

So, what we've got here is a very, very beautiful opportunity to really focus on what's important in THIS life. And what THAT is is THAT thing. No, the other thing. Basically, what I'm saying here, TED, is that we ex-premies are going to use your wonderful bright eyed innocence and conduct a little experiment that will determine whether a new premie can successfully practice Knowledge without the guidance of Maharaji and instead rely on the guidance and wisdom of those who went down that path, that slippery slope with Maharaji. TED, we can guide you through the complexities of practicing Knowledge. We know. We've been there. And what is obvious to us is that while the ancient and sacred Knowledge of the Master belongs to Maharaji and that he so graciously gave it to you when you watched that DVD, we know that Maharaji is past his prime. He's out there operating without any decent restraint, totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct. And he is still in the field commanding troops. [oops, from Apocalypse Now]

So, TED, to your question. A relationship? TED in my Alcohol Anomymisc meetings that I never delay in attending it is always advised for the first year of sobriety not to get into a relationship because of the danger of a relapse. Well, I don't know about you, TED, but for me relationships are always fraught with problems. Ok, I really didn't have too many relationships because, well... Because I spent too many damn years in Maharaji's damn ashcan ashrams and I bought into all that celibacy, chastity shit. By the time I left the ashram - well, actually Maharaji closed the ashrams down and put us all out onto the streets with nothing - by the time I left I was too old and tired and even the thought of sex wore me out. Besides, after living in the ashram for so long I had absolutely no social skills outside of the satsang hall.

More importantly, TED, is why do need a relationship with someone outside of yourself when you can go inside? Inside, you know, THAT place? Damn it, TED, I don't want to lose you now. I've seen so many premies get Knowledge, practice it, enjoy it, be grateful and then all of a sudden they see a boyfriend or a girlfriend and they're gone out the door and they never look back. TED, we've got to be really careful now because you are just a little baby premie and you are apt to get lost unless you hold onto the Master's little finger. So, TED, maybe what we need to do because this is all happening so fast and I can see that you are straining at the bit, but I think that we need to do something that I normally would not advise, but we need to have to divert that attention, that desire, back onto the path. And like I said I don't want to do this, but sometimes you just need to focus on Maharaji just for a little while until this passes. Not to worry, TED, we won't let you fall too deeply into worshipping the Master because we know the dangers.

So, just until your carnal desire passes, TED, I want you to go to this webpage and gaze upon and adore your Master, Maharaji.

I gotta go now, TED. I'm on one of those weekend junkets to Reno and I'm hoping to get me a little hoochie action if ya know what I mean.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:56:11 (GMT)
From: TED F-video coordinator
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Damn, now I know how ' I ' feels
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-
My hat's off to you son,you certainly helped me out with that last bit of advice.And not only 'satsangy' type of advice, but some real live stuff that a feller can relly 'sink his teeth' into.
You were right,my carnal desires were getting the best of me, but when I took one look at that site you turned me onto, well, all those other thoughts were just blown away,and I was in THAT experience with a whole mess of GRATITUDE to boot!
I'm takin the day off today to fix up the shop for sunday's video event.Gonna string up some christmas lights in front of the big garage doors and maybe spell out something fancy with them, like 'let's all participate', or 'I've got gratitude-ask me why!'....somethin catchy, maybe bring in a few aspirants that way...kind of like trawlin for bass in the fishin pond outside,back of the shop...
Well,thank you sir,once again. After watching that little presentation of yours I feel much better.I can see why you old timers were always packin up and going off to some program in some god-forsaken part of the world at the drop of a hat in the old days.I would have too, if he was givin shows like that!Why down here in Mobile, you gotta pay $8 to get into a 'Titty Bar' and they aint always much to look at.So, that lord of ours, he's quite a lord!He seems to think of everything,got all the bases covered...
That's about it for now.I've stopped thinkin about Pauline Premie since the video, but got to admit, still got a hankering to meet up with Janice Wilson someday and share some gratitude while we're gettin synchronized..

TED Farkel
Shop Foreman and Keeper of the Flame
Mobile,Alabama

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TED F-video coordinator
Subject: Roger, you've got to keep these dialogues on HofD!
Message:
These exchanges are hilarious.

Please, do us all a favour, and keep them on your site.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:25:25 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: This opportunity is a showcase for premies
Message:
Indeed I will. This is such a beautiful, beautiful opportunity to present a showcase for premies to see that the ex-premies are not necessarily against achieving an experience of inner peace through Knowledge, rather we believe that Maharaji is a detriment and an impediment to the success of that effort. Yet, we will show that great success can be had by taking the good and rejecting the bad. Sort of like separating the wheat from the chaff. In this case the chaff is Maharaji, a completely useless ingredient if not a harmful one at that.

We, the ex-premies, are so very, very fortunate that TED Farkel, the brand new baby premie, has somehow showed up on our doorsteps (or wolf's den) and we can raise him and guide him along based upon our own failed experience with the Master.

I believe that this momentous occasion marks the beginning of a new kinder and gentler era where premies and ex-premies can have a common understanding (like in stand under) of what the spiritual path is and how one should proceed on it.

Jim, I know that you are an self-admitted god fearing and hating Canadian and all, but I need to ask you to be very careful during this period of détente that we are having with the premies. Please don't take me wrong by saying that because you are very instrumental in the effort of keeping the hardcore traditionalist and the revisionist premies who come here to satsang us under control. These hardcore premies are like weeds that have come to choke our garden of flowers. You, Jim, are the great and powerful weed-eater. And your efforts will always be needed as these hardcore premies are like hydras. With the unmasking of Shroomananda we've established once and for all the hardcore premies are full of shit and they can be successfully composted and turned into mulch for our beautiful, beautiful garden.

©There is so much to be grateful for when our appreciation is synchronized.™

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 05:55:01 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek/Jim, too
Subject: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!!!!!
Message:
Rog, m'lad: you've got a gnarly sense of humor, man! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha stopit, stopit, my sides are hurtin'! Let me catch a breath...

P.S. the laughter helps overcome the pain, yes?

Also, to Jim: yeah, that staring into the eyes trip got me into a lot of funny situations, too...

Since it's a Friday night, I'll tell you a little secret here: these guys asked me about my given moniker: 'suchabanana'. I don't know if it was because I was the gung-ho guy who used to meditate all night (who went for the 'whole banana'), or because the other bros used to see the pretty young premie women (all legal age, incidentally) stop by my cell of a room all the time to 'share', etc., and my single-minded bros assumed (well, you know) -- sometimes the door was closed... not to worry, though (I turned down a lot of Maya, for the most part).

By the way, Jim, Carol was sincere -- please don't put her down when she shows up again. She's obviously struggling with the sh--, too, and like she said 'just thinking out loud'. I'm almost sorry I posted her message. I don't want to be a party to anything hurtful or mean-spirited.

Peace

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:05:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!!!!!
Message:
How could I change a subject line like that?

Giving Carol a hard time is my middle name. But she loves it. It just gives her more opportunity to practice forgiveness, forebearance, those kinds of things. Ask her.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:49:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TED Farkel-auto k baby...
Subject: Just stare into their eyes really long like (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:36:28 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You make me sick!
Message:
Maharaji's busting his ass trying to help you guys and all you can do is make cheap jibes and invent stories about him.

You loosers make me sick!

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:22:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Hmmmn
Message:
...you've got me thinking now Gordon- I felt the energy of your post. If you could only tell me what stories these freaky folk here have invented, it just might make me think hard enought to start practising again.

Anth- already humming arti

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 19:48:02 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hmmmn
Message:
At last. An ex-premie who wants to know the truth. We'll soon have you listening to your master again. Well you know the kind of stories that people have invented here... That Maharaji said he'd turn the motorway round... when in actual fact he only said that after the journey when he got back to Mike's house and it was a joke, yeah but then people took him seriously.

Yes, he told Mike to turn the van round on the motorway but it was when they got back that he said he could have turned the motorway round. All those years Mike wasted worrying about a joke. If only he'd known.

That's the trouble with having a fun Lord of the universe.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 13:19:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: I'm off to the programme tonight
Message:
Gordon,

the veils have fallen from my eyes.

And the master is in town tonight.

You've turned me back from the brink. I'm off to the programme to beg forgiveness.

Anth the once was lost, then found, then lost again, then found again.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 00:50:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Hmmmn
Message:
That is not true. I heared Mike oneday saying this in a satasang. It was when they got to the motorway. Mike gave him a questioning look. So gm said to him something like trust me I am the perfect master, I can do it. Mike being too sceptical did not do it .
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 19:10:52 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Right Salam
Message:
I heard Mike Finch telling that story about the motorway and it was no joke as far as he was concerned. He obviously thought that Maha meant it. This Gordon character must have inside info on what Maha's game is huh?
Steve
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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 15:00:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: I also remember him saying
Message:
this story at the same time: he was with Maharaji one day and some coversation took place(can not recall exactly what) and maharaji told him that when he (mark) get knowledge he will find out. Mark turned to Maharaji and said : I already had knowledge. Now that I think about it in view who Mark was, I can see that he must have been questioning a lot of things that were happining to him.
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 01:19:28 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Honest, this is what I was told
Message:
I guess only Mike can clear this one up. I heard a version from one of the guys who was in the van that Maharaji told Mike to turn around since they were going the wrong way. Mike told Maharaji that they couldn't turn around because they were on a dual carriageway (or motorway) and so they continued on their way until they got to a suitable slip road. Presumably Maharaji didn't realise that you couldn't do a u-turn on such a road.

When they got back home, Maharaji then said to Mike and the others that he could have turned the motorway (I was actually told it was the whole universe) around if Mike had turned the van round.

This version of the story which I heard seems far more plausable and fits with Maharaji's character.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:00:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Ok, Gordon, let's recap here...
Message:
You started out by saying:

Maharaji's busting his ass trying to help you guys and all you can do is make cheap jibes and invent stories about him.
You loosers make me sick!

When challenged for an example of an 'invented story', you gave the example of 'turning the motorway round' etc. (As if seeing this old chestnut repeated here could make you feel so poorly.)

When questioned further regarding the anecdote, it seems you were not present on said occasion and merely have a different overheard version from the overheard version you have read here...

You say your version 'fits M's character' better, and he was only 'joking'.

I say both versions fit perfectly his adopted 'Lord of the Universe' persona: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. Was he pulling our legs when he made those claims? To say 'I was only joking' (which he never has) has to be the oldest cop-out in the book.

His ass doesn't look that busted to me. In a nest so well-cushioned from the world's hardships, how could it?

BTW: have you posted here before? If so, under what name?

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 03:38:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Whatever you say. Good that Mike did not
Message:
do. I wounder if he would have done it and got a ticket. Will maharajii have paid the fine and magically change the penelty off Mike's licence to his?
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 05:38:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Ask him to get a bigger ass.
Message:
If he can not keep up, that is his problem not mine.
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 02:41:24 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: First visit, Gordon?
Message:
Premie visitors invariably (for reasons unknown) have a track record of mis-spelling the word 'losers' (not to mention remembering their own alias).

Nobody has yet been blocked for bad spelling, but you're trying my patience, Mr 'Showcase'...

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 00:48:12 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: You just gotta be NUTS!
Message:

This is a joke, right? A put-on? Don't tell me you are for real. Nobody BUT NOBODY could be so stupid as to seriously say:

Maharaji's busting his ass trying to help you guys

Like what has he done for ME lately???
What has he done for YOU lately (and I don't want to hear about 4 yogic techniques that can be sussed from a zillion sources)
What has he done for ANYONE, lately....EVER????

('Whoa there ExTex...get a grip...THIS MUST BE ANOTHER GOOF that your falling for.' he tells himself reassuringly)

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:48:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: You just gotta be NUTS!
Message:
'('Whoa there ExTex...get a grip...THIS MUST BE ANOTHER GOOF that your falling for.' he tells himself reassuringly)'

Well what do you think? With a name like Gordon Showcase and the standard premie misspelling of the word 'losers'.

He he he.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 23:55:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: It's 'losers', Gord (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:27:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Panic! alternative philosophy tracts (ot?)
Message:
Jim Luchte of Panic! wrote me ...

I read your poem. The title is quite appropriate. Your interest in Eastern thought is obvious. As part of the Panic! website, I am gathering shorter alternative philosophy tracts. Perhaps you would like to write something in any style, with no censorship. I have recently finished my thesis for a Doctorate in Philosophy on 1920's radical phenomenology of ecstatic temporality and will myself be placing a few pages. Yet, I will remained focussed on non-philosophical expression.

I have placed your poem on the links page.

Let me know about the philosophy/theology...

Jim Luchte's email = panic.brixtonpoetry@which.net

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:37:30 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim Luchte
Subject: experiences and expressions
Message:
Hi Jim,

I should imagine that when it comes to 'the phenomenology of temporal ecstacy' people around this scene may well have a lot to say. That is because the 'knowledge' referred to is four yogic meditation techniques (documented on ex-premie.org) which give the practioner a direct experience (of phenomena held to be) God *provided* that one is sufficiently devoted to Majaraji. Gratitude and love - meaning a life commitment including time and money, you understand.

The techniques seem to work with a powerful and profound intensity on a large enough minority of aspirants to dazzle people away from the simple fact that they work equally without a personal devotion to the personality of Mr Rawat. Although this does take some considerable contrivance with stage settings; expectations; and a raft of manipulation techniques, etc.

The focus of the ex-premie.org site is on demolishing Rawat's unethical exploitation of these techniques, and demolishing the messianic personality cult that he operates. Of course, many deep meditators with decades of experience (and with diverse techniques) are involved in this Shivic enterprise. I should imagine that when it comes to 'the phenomenology of temporal ecstacy' people around this scene may well have a lot to say.

If anyone here would like to write something in any style with no censorship about their experiences with yoga or deep meditation (or on their philosophical or theological beliefs) then Jim Luchte wants your words. And he means the any style bit. A short story, poem, straight description in the style of John C. Lilly, ecstatic evocation, whatever!

Diverse expression's the game - Jim Luchte's the name!

Mail him at panic.brixtonpoetry@which.net

and at your own risk... post it here too ;-)

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:41:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam, Marianne, Jim, Joe
Subject: Repost from below
Message:
Hi,
I've been having all sorts of hassles on the net today.
Here's my second try;

Hi Salam, Joe, Marianne and Jim

Thanks for your posts. They have given me lots to think about, because I am looking at this apparent contradiction inside myself, where on the one hand I’m saying the whole Guru Maharaji trip has turned into a big money making scam, in which premies are heavily discouraged from thinking rationally about their situation (cannot put a Rolls Royce in the boot of a mini etc). But on the other hand, I kind of feel sorry for the guy, because I can never look at him without seeing this little kid, who was stuck up on a throne and told he was God Almighty. Maybe comparing him to Michael Jackson is more accurate than Bill Clinton, in response to what you asked Jim. Someone who’s never had a chance to grow up naturally. I can’t simply see people as they are at this moment. I can’t rip a person’s past away from them. Our past has formed us.

So, to answer Salam’s, ‘nail me down question’,

‘I would very much like to see a draught document to be presented to court listing all the accusation against him. I think that will be the day.
Would you contribute your part in it or will you abstain?’

I’m afraid you may not like my answer Salam, I suffer from a traditional British working class, mistrust of the legal system. It’s always been used as a tool to ‘keep us in our place’, and most of the time appears to have little to do with ‘justice’ or doing the right thing.

But like I said earlier, if it’s serious, like child abuse, serious violence or something, that I’ve been involved in as a witness or someone it was reported to, I don’t have a problem co-operating with the legal system. . I reported Jagdeo to the Police in England. (See, I’m full of contradictions. It all looks fine from in here but, I sometimes wonder how it looks from the outside. Maybe you’ll tell me.)

But going to court would never be high on my list of priorities with Mr Rawat. First, I wonder what charges you’d have him up on, “Falsely impersonating the Creator of the Universe”. I wouldn’t have a problem taking the stand and saying, “Yes, I saw him dressed up as Krishna a few times.” But I suspect you mean something more serious and I’m not sure what it is. So maybe you could tell me and I’ll give you a more accurate response.

I prefer to look in other directions to express my feelings. The effect the ex-premie websites has had has been amazing. I’ve met some of the folk behind them, and the cult should do itself a favour and shut down right now, before they sober up and get organised. And this has all been done at very little cost, by a handful of people- usually with a good feeling in there somewhere. I love the power of information.

Marianne, the prisoner guard analogy came from Jim, but I understand what he means.

Remember in the Wizard of Oz when the wizard turns out to be a big disappointment, not the big powerful wizard, but some daft skinny bloke with a PA? That fits my picture of Maharaji more accurately than some all powerful dictator.

Joe, I take your point about you realising he’s not God and carrying on just the same, but I think he still believes he’s the Perfect Master, for real. Bob Mishlers stuff is revealing on this point. All the premies around him believe this, and nothing every happens to shake his very comfortable role as living lord.

The whole thing works better if he believes it himself.

So, I’m enjoying discussing this with you all. I feel you’re sometimes poking into dank corners of my cellar and asking me about the junk in there.

“Well that box, it’s got a bit of Zen, a bits of residual Christianity and Buddhism, twenty-odd years of walking the path of devotion and discovering it finished in a vandalised bus shelter, and a smattering of yobo-dust.”

Take care
Anth reading the entrails on a tightrope

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:26:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: This is a good place to start for
Message:
building a case.

http://www.pond.com/~freemind/rg/rgfactsheet/rgfact_legal.htm

Do you think there is hope still?

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 06:51:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: This guy did it.
Message:
My name is Larry Wollersheim I have had some measure of success
in fighting Scientology over the last 10 years.(See Enclosed
Articles and Appeal Decision, ie. 30 million dollar and 2 1/2
million dollar court judgment as well as precedent setting first
amendent decisions in my favor.)

Find out more at:

http://www.xenu.org/factnet/SCN/FILES/GENERAL/EXITRES.TXT

So, Do you want to get together and do something about it, anyone, my e-mail is:

salam_au@iprimus.com.au

Let see if we eally have the balls to go all the way.

SB are you there?

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:39:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I think you have Mishler's comments wrong.
Message:
Joe, I take your point about you realising he’s not God and carrying on just the same, but I think he still believes he’s the Perfect Master, for real. Bob Mishlers stuff is revealing on this point. All the premies around him believe this, and nothing every happens to shake his very comfortable role as living lord.

I'm not sure the distinction you make between being 'Perfect Master' and being the incarnation of God. I think they boil down to basically the same thing. Are you making a distinction? If so, then I stand by my point that at some period or another he realized he wasn't God, when he had been saying he was previously.

But in either case, whether he still believes he is the Perfect Master or the incarnation of God, or both, he is lying through his teeth currently, and allowing Elan Vital to do the same.

Also, Mishler was talking about 1976, 24 years ago. I think things have changed since that time, about what Maharaji thinks about himself, or at least he is willing to lie out loud to cover things that he doesn't think will sell anymore. Either way, it's pretty bad and he deserves blame.

Also, the way I read Mishler, he didn't really say that Maharaji BELIEVED he was God/Perfect Master, I believe what he said was that Maharaji was afraid that if the premies didn't BELIEVE he was God/Perfect Master anymore, (and Mishler was proposing that the premies be 'deprogrammed' from that notion), that they wouldn't worship him anymore, and hence wouldn't give him planes, automobiles and lots of cash. He didn't want to cut back on his opulent lifestyle. Even back in 1976, it sounded as though Maharaji was rather selfish and calculated, according to Mishler. He cared only about himself, and not about how the belief system was damaging his followers.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 22:56:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, Anth....
Message:
Remember in the Wizard of Oz when the wizard turns out to be a big disappointment, not the big powerful wizard, but some daft skinny bloke with a PA? That fits my picture of Maharaji more accurately than some all powerful dictator.

It fits my picture, too, but the Wizard of Oz also caused all kind of damage to Dorothy and her friends. They almost got killed. Something for which he had responsbility.

Which he did accept. He did publicly admit he WAS a fraud, and he actually tried to get Dorothy home, remember? What has Maharaji done to redress the damage? Nothing, except to deny it? Has he even admitted he is just the guy behind the curtain? No.

So, are you saying that now, to this day, he STILL doesn't realize he really IS the man behind the curtain? I can't accept that because of the actions he has taken in the last 10 years in toning down his rhetoric and the trappings. He has admitted and recognized his limitations, and he has taken action to try to conserve the good thing he has. These are overt actions -- overtly deceitful actions. And still, not acceptance of his responsiblity.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:19:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, Anth....
Message:
Hi Joe,

The impression I was left with after reading the Mishler interview was that, Bob Mishler had realised Maharaji had got to stop playing this role of 'Perfect Master', 'Guru Maharaji' or whatever. Mishler made a practical plan for him to get out of it all and be financially self-sufficient, but when push came to shove, Maharaji couldn't get down off the throne.

Lots of people say that he doesn't push himself as the Lord of the Universe, Perfect Master whatever (I don't make a distinction Joe, in response to your question) but I firmly believe he still sees himself as this character, carrying on the tradition from his father, and fulfilling his father's wishes.

He always had an altar to his father in his house, and talked about him as his Guru Maharaji ie Perfect Master, Lord, etc. He always talked about his father very respectfully etc. His personal website shows he believes in the tradition of Perfect Masters, coming down through his father to him. Everyone around him has consistently treated him as if he is this divine being- whatever fads have been going on in the organisation- all the feedback he's ever received has reinforced this- so I think he's been suckered along with the rest of us. He believes the bullshit himself.

Joe, it's late, and if I had anything else to say I forgot.

Bonne soiree
Anth le fuzzy

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 20:14:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Well, I disagree, quite a lot.
Message:
'Guru Maharaji' or whatever. Mishler made a practical plan for him to get out of it all and be financially self-sufficient, but when push came to shove, Maharaji couldn't get down off the throne.

Right, he couldn't get off the throne, but what you left out was the motivation for not getting off the throne. According to Mishler it wasn't that Maharaji said, but 'gee, I really AM the Perfect Master; I really am the incarnation of God, and so I shouldn't pretend I'm not.' No, according to Mishler, it was a selfish, lifestyle reason. He wanted to be continued to be worshipped as the Perfect Master so that he could continue living the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed. This is a really important distinction, made by someone who spent a lot of time with him.

Everyone around him has consistently treated him as if he is this divine being- whatever fads have been going on in the organisation- all the feedback he's ever received has reinforced this- so I think he's been suckered along with the rest of us. He believes the bullshit himself.

I have no idea whether he really believes his father was some kind of divine being or not. Who knows? I rather think the worship of his father was just used as a way to imply to the premies that they should be doing the same to him.

But regarding feedback, I disagree. I think he has actually gotten quite a bit of negative 'feedback.' First, he has failed miserably in what he set out to do and he has dramatically downsized his aims. Instead of spreading knowledge to the entire world, now he's a teacher of meditation, satsified with a few thousand 'students' in the west. This 'feedback' is a lot stronger that what sychophants around him might say. He realized what he was peddling was a little interest to the vast majority of people, and that he really sucked at getting people interested.

Plus, he has reacted to the feedback, by lowering his expectations to rather meager ones. So, while he might still believe he is somebody important, he has certainly dropped even his own self image by a number of pegs.

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 12:24:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I hear you Joe
Message:
Hi Joe,

I definitely hear what you, and everyone else is telling me here, and I feel more cracks in the wall appearing.

In one way this is disconcerting, because I felt like I'd put plenty of distance between myself and the cult. I feel like I've walked to the top of a hill only to discover there's another hill that I couldn't see from below

Last night, when all the premies came back from the programme, I saw the 'darshan blissed out' state in their eyes and it made me scared and very angry that somebody could be so confused, talking contradictory crap, yet claiming to be full of inspiration. It was a wierd spooky feeling to see people I love behave in such a strange way.

Anth the 'Are we there yet?'

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:45:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No, no, no, no, NOOOOO, Anth
Message:
Anth,

I've had the 'opportunity' to get to know some people who've done some very bad things. Can you imagine? Yet, so many of these guys present with warm enough personalities in the right circumstances. That goes for rapists, murderers, the works. And even the ones who aren't 'nice' to their lawyers probably have a few aunts and uncles who remember them as cute little kids. Sigh? Sure, I guess. Sigh.

Maharaji is a bad, bad boy. He got super rich calling himself God and, while he doesn't quite do that anymore, he knows that the world is peppered with people who still think of him that way. Does he care? No! He just wants what he wants and that seems to be lots of adulation and extreme wealth.

If the time ever comes in which he's willing or able to begin to, first, stop the charade and second, make amends and even, perhaps, reparations, there might be room for conciliation. But that time hasn't come yet.

Thought experiment -- you're hanging with Maharaji with all the fair, humane consideration you can muster (I'm not being faceitous). Someone calls while you're there, wanting to ask their guru something that might, just might, make him think a bit about who he really is and what affect he's having on people. You relay the message and he says thanks but you know he's never going to call the person. He never does and that's not about to change, is it?

How much line can you keep giving him? This isn't about his childhood or his father's childhood or even his grandfather's childhood. It's about right now and how he treats people. And that treatment sucks and I just know, Anth, that if you were there you'd be disgusted.

And he'd deserve it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:36:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hang on Jim, the world is sticky
Message:
Hi Jim,

I don't think it's plain and simple.

Yes he thinks he's something he's not.

Yes he gets incredible material benefit from playing this role.

Yes thousands of people go along with it and put their money and energy into it.

And Yes it stinks. And Yes the sooner this big stupid trip disintegrates the better.

Maharaji, and his family, and the PAMs all live in a wierd, introverted little world. Sure it's the world of the rich and affluent, but the same old record's clicking round and round and round, and they all have to keep dancing to it.

This image of him of 'evil conman' doesn't quite fit. He seems much more like, a spoilt, rich, out of touch, amazingly self-centred, surrounded by sycophants and flunkeys, deluded, sort of guy.

You say you've got to know lots of people who did lots of bad things. Well my father did lots of bad things Jim, but he had a another side to him too. And if you'd met him you would have liked him. It's not black and white.

And in your example, I think you're probably dead right. I would be disgusted. And I am disgusted by the way the game plan is to milk everyone down to their last penny. But I think he sits there, seeing himself as some kind of'High Tech Master' devising a Master plan to spread his 'Knowledge of God' to the planet using technology. It's typical rich person with more money than sense bullshit. And everyone keeps telling him how brilliant it all is, and giving more dosh to indulge his fantasies.

I'm not sure yelling at him is the right approach. I think he's probably more in need of some professional psychological help.

Anth the nutters pal

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:15:51 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hang on Jim, the world is sticky
Message:
Anth,

I just would like to step in with some support for your way of perceiving these issues. Having spent some time ( 1yr ) around him , I think that he really does believe himself to be a great benefactor to the world. He does mistakenly think that he was given some type of high flying licence to live as a king and master to his devotees.

I in no way condone his delusions and I too hope that his pathetic masquerade fizzles out. However I like to feel compassion for that person as well as for his victims.

The world has many people setting themselves up as superior to the rest of us and they all creatively reason their way out of admitting they make mistakes. I would respect Maha if he could come to some honest self examination and apologise for those glaring errors he made.

I've been through periods of intense dislike for M, even hate and it really didn't make me feel good. I'd love to have the opportunity to participate in a discussion with him and other exes or maybe just to listen to one . Fat chance of that ever happening though. I wonder how ex premies would communicate with him face to face and if their opinions would change about him? When the Dalai Lama met chairman Mao he was quite astonished that the man was so much less of an ogre than he expected. I recall that he was quite impressed.

cheers mate and thanks for having the courage to express what YOU really think
Steve

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Yeah, and Hitler had the most fetching smile!
Message:
When the Dalai Lama met chairman Mao he was quite astonished that the man was so much less of an ogre than he expected. I recall that he was quite impressed.

Thank you for this example, Steve. I hope Anth reads this too because this story, if it's true, says it all. Mao's Cultural Revolution was one of the most harmful, evil and cynical movements in history. It's not as if he was trying to gain power for some idealistic goal, however misguided, he just wanted to 'revitalize' the absolute power he already had.

But, I guess, as the Dalai Lama apparently discovered, Mao could tell a few good jokes. Maybe he even made nice eye contact and appeared to be a 'good listener'. And let's not forget the palace chefs. I'm sure they prepared something nice to eat.

SO WHAT?

Maharaji's own brother told me in a private, sincere, and unguarded moment, more than a decade ago, that Maharaji refused to discuss, even with him, his supposedly closest confidant beside his wife, any of the thornier issues about himself and his 'mission in this world'.

What does that tell me?

It tells me that, contrary to yours or anyone's effort to soften the focus there is a simple, clear picture here. Maharaji knows he's fake. He is not a cosmic cross between Richie Rich and Mr. Magoo. He is not so cut off from the world that he doesn't know that his very existence cries out for some reckoning, that many of those who served him with all they had for years have been asking for that reckoning for literally decades.

He is perpetrating a conscious fraud on the world. All for one purpose -- to protect and enrich himself.

Of one thing, I'm certain. If Maharaji were forced to answer for himself, say in a civil deposition or trial like O.J.'s, it would be abundantly clear by the end of the process that he's a worm. Not a disillusioned idealist. Just a worm.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:52:40 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes!
Message:
Definately. There's a recent post (and I can't remember the poster) that looks at the various business models applied at various times in terms of Rawat ahem, coming to terms with things.

He knows the truth. His life has been a lie.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:46 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh No ! not the comparisons with Hitler !
Message:
I buy that no more than the comparison to Buddha or Jesus.

I really don't see Mahaha as a chairman Mao , Stalin Hitler or Pol Pot. You really think he's that terrible?

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:17:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: M and M
Message:
Jim

One of the best biographies/history books I've read is 'The Secret Life of Chairman Mao', written by his personal physician, who saw him most days from soon after the revolution up until his death in 75. He had a photographic memory, and on her death bed, his wife made him promise to write the story.

One of Maos pastimes was to have dance troupes of young communist girls, who'd been brought up in Communist Party orphanages. They'd do their performance for him, then he'd pick one and take her off to one of many special bedrooms he'd had built all over the place.

He had a sexually transmitted disease, which he refused to let the doctor treat. His response was, 'I clean my dick on the next virgin.'

He seemed to be quite disgusting in his personal life, but an incredibly sharp politician.

And so to the other M.

Jim, the fact that he won't discuss these subjects you mention with Raja Ji, doesn't mean he knows he's a fake.

Maybe he sees these questions as doubts. And realises if he follows them, his whole mission in life will collapse. Asking himself that kind of stuff forces him to look over the precipice.

It would be the end of his ordained role in life as Perfect Master. He would have destroyed all his fathers work. And what about that 'wonderful Knowledge' that humanity is always telling him they're so grateful for?

I'm not trying to soften the focus Jim- I'm trying to understand what goes on in that eyesore on the hill, and in the head of the 'Perfect Master'.

Anth the Myopic Mystic who Missed It.

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 23:30:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Mao
Message:
I knew a guy from Hong Kong who told me that bodies frequently floated down the river from China. I think us westerners don't realize how many of his own people he had killed.

The film 'The Red Violin' had some scenes that took place in communist China. The climate of fear and cultish oppression portrayed was amazing. You either obeyed or else ...

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 06:21:25 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Mao
Message:
Yes they say it was quite a tough time. Lots of people killed...awful. Nasty old Mao.

But nothing quite like the systematic genocide of the MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people that originally lived in North America.

That was government policy too, BUT IT WAS THIS GOVERNMENT (and THE CANADIAN, BRITISH and SPANISH GOVERNMENTS!)
The largest holocaust in recorded history! Made Hitler and Mao or Stalin look like amatuers.
It is odd how we seem to never bring it up when talking about the 'bad guys', isn't it? And there are all kinds of rationalizations and justifications that will come up IF the subject is mentioned!
The total death count is BEYOND CALCULATION. Mind boggling!

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 17:53:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Genocide
Message:
Hi Ex-Tex,

I'm a bit of a history buff, but my specialist area isn't North America.

I remember reading (I think it was an article in Time magazine) that the estimated population of North America, before the Europeans arrived, was about 200,000,000,

Most of these people died because of lack of immunity to diseases us Europeans had been incubating, and developing resistance to, for thousands of years before.

There's a brilliant book on this subject called 'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond. It explains why one group of people invented spaceships and another group remained living as Mesolithic hunter gatherers.

Anth

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:26:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: You acutally believe that nonsense?
Message:
That theory's bullshit. The book was universally decried as entirely unfounded by historians when it came out about seven years ago.

Why is it that former followers of a teenage Lord of the Universe are so gullible sometimes?

Hm.... that's a real hard one. I'm going to have to think about this .....

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:44:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What book, what theory?
Message:

I am confused here. Are you referring to ExTex's post about the genocide of native people in the Americas? That is bullshit? Really? It didn't happen?
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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 15:50:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It didn't happen on that scale, no
Message:
Can't remember the name of the book. It came out in the early nineties and, like I say, got laughed off the shelfs by historians of all stripes. The thesis was that there well over a hundred million natives obliterated by massacre, plague and famine by the white guy. Not sure of the numbers, it might have been even more. Why not say over a billion? That's a nice round number.
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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:51:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No completely right, Jim
Message:
200 million is probably too high, and so is 100 million, probably. It was probably something like 60 million, though. Most historians believe that there were between 10 and 20 million people living in what is now the USA and Canada precontact. And yes, 96% of them were killed off, mostly by disease brought by Europeans for which the Native Americans had no immunity.

For example, by the time the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock, much of the Native American population in the New England area had been killed off by diseases brought by earlier trappers/explorers/fisherman. The Pilgrims walked into a depopulated, but largely cleared farmland for their use.

But in the area of Mexico, there may have been an additional 40 to 50 million. Most of them were killed off as well.

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 18:01:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Germs
Message:
Smallpox and influenza were two big killers. Smallpox was passed over from animals to humans from cows. Hunter gatherers, who'd never domesticated cattle, were wiped out by it.

Anth who's got a cold at the moment

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 19:03:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Reading Jared Diamond?
Message:
I read Guns, Germs and Steel on my Hawaii vacation in June. A great read, isn't it?
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Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 22:42:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why is sex fun?
Message:
Hi Joe,

Yes, a truly magnificent history book that puts to bed for once and for all the idea that the developed races are in anyway superior to the so called undeveloped races. 'If you ain't got no iron ore in the ground, you ain't gonna have an Iron Age.'

He's written another brilliant book, a bit easier to read than GG&S, called, 'Why is Sex Fun?', which when you think about it, is not such a daft question. In nearly all other mammalian species, sex is not for fun, it's for making young, so it only happens when the female ovulates. He starts the book, looking at human mating habits through the eyes of a dog. It's great.

He's written another one called 'The Third Chimpanzee', which I pick up and put down once in a while, but haven't got stuck into yet.

Hah- Joe, you're the first person I've come across who knows about the guy.

Anth the Mesolithic Menopausal Mammal

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:25:24 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It didn't happen on that scale, no
Message:
I quoted no book title. The genocide of the indigenous peoples of north america did happen and it was government policy. As to what the 'scale' of it was....how many? NO ONE COULD KNOW FOR SURE.
I am not going to get into a debate about this subject.
Some people who believed in a teenager as The Lord Of The Universe will ARGUE ABOUT ANYTHING!
Not me, this time.
And you can have the last word, too.
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible
Message:
But is it 'likely', Anth?

How about this. For a good few years now, Maharaji knows that we've collected and confronted premies, EV and even him with quotes confirming his indisputable claims of divinity. Yet, he has his organization post a blatant denial of that most obvious and damning history.

I mean, where do you draw the line on giving the benefit of the doubt to someone? Especially where they continue to offend, continue to benefit and even, in spite of their general stonewalling, offer some defence (like the EV FAQ), that defence being unconsciounably false.

Where, Anth?

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:51:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible
Message:
Hi Jim,

On this matter of Maharaji and him being 'Perfect Master'.

I don't think he's ever said, anywhere, any time that he's stopped being this. Premies have tried to damp down the heavy devotional period in the cults history, but I don't believe the name of the game has changed for one second- 'He is Lord, we are his disciples. He is taking us on this journey through these dark times, when his work is under attack.'

Those pathetic rebuttals, from the perspective over the fence in cult world, are the best they can do under the circumstances, to limit the damage to 'His Work', that folk like you and I are doing Jim.

The Master and his cult are in a big mess at the moment. Anything that it produces for the outside world is going to look strange, and fizzle out in the light of day.

Anth the gotta go, premies at the door

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:58:51 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, Anth, I know. That's definitely possible
Message:
he definitely endorses the god image to old prems thru the grapevine and at moment presents himself as perfect master but not god to new people.
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 02:47:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You know what I'd like to know?
Message:
Maharaji's father was the 'Perfect Master' before him. What kind of powers did he believe his father had? He probably figured that his father was God, in the flesh, and if he wanted to, could obliterate the universe with a snap of his fingers, just as any other premie believed. Now, when Maharaji became Perfect Master, himself, what crossed his mind when he realized, as he certainly must have, that he, as successor to his dad, had no such power?

I think it was Nigel, who a long time ago mentioned that Maharaji must have tried out his divine powers, at least once. Maybe, when nobody was looking, he tried to walk on water or something, just to check it out, y'know, to see if he really could. What happenned when he found out that he couldn't? Was it a big shocker? Did he wonder if his father really could, too? Do you think that he might have thought that somebody made a mistake, that they chose the wrong guy for succession? What did he think in that moment when he knew he had no such power as he had always imagined the Perfect Master had?

What do you think, Anth? When Maharaji became Perfect Master, himself, a title he always equated with God, what do you think he did when it became clear to him, as it surely must have, that he was all wrong about what a Perfect Master could do? Well, it's a dumb question, really, because we know exactly what he did. He just let people keep believing, the same as his father did when he was Perfect Master, that he could do all those things.

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:02:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You know what I'd like to know?
Message:
Hi Jerry,

Those kind of powers you're talking about, walking on water etc, are called something like 'siddhas'. The are practised by 'Siddhi-gurus'. I don't think the tradition of gurus that came down through Mahararji's father are into the magical stuff.

I think he believes his power is to be the distributor, and sole franchise for 'The Knowledge of all Knowledges'- the direct experience etc etc.

Anth the assiddhic

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 21:05:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You know what I'd like to know?
Message:
Anth,

Maharaji was claiming to be able to do a lot more than just walk on water. He was claiming to have the power of God at his disposal. Didn't he once say that he could put the whole world, or universe, in a bag and just shake it around? Or what about 'a leaf stirs only by his consent' (or something along those lines)? I'm sure he believed his father had such powers, and must have become disillusioned, at his own 'coronation', to discover that he, himself, did not. That didn't stop him from continuing the facade, though. I can only assume that the power over others these beliefs afforded him was just too much to give up.

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 18:02:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You know what I'd like to know?
Message:
Hi Jerry,

I'm shooting in the dark here.

Maybe he believes that he should leave no room for doubt in his mind.

Maybe he believes that, being God, he put everything where it is anyway, so there's no need to move it.

Maybe it's the same reason Jesus didn't make the nails fly out and get down from the cross.

I'm sure he's got some explanation.

Anth the ouch I hit my foot

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Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 17:58:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: That ol' synchronicity ..
Message:
Hi Anth,

Just in the middle of reading Anthony Storr's 'Feet of Clay - a study of gurus', and your post triggered something I knew I'd read only very recently.

Just happened to have the book with me, looked for the quote, and blimey, found it within 30 secs. Here it is:

' ..insistence that disciples accept a guru's message without criticism (my emphasis) argues that the guru himself has secret doubts. We have already observed that gurus need the reassurance which disciples provide, just as disciples need the guru as leader.'
.
.
.
Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 22:46:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Feet of Clay-Anthony Storr
Message:
Hi Chris,

I've got a copy of the book Chris. It's excellent. It helped open me up to the possibility that it could all be bullshit.

Anth with powder on the lips

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Date: Thurs, Sep 28, 2000 at 17:36:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ... you don't mean, GASP ...do you?
Message:
EXPLOSIVE DIET

A man once counseled his son that if he wanted to live a long
life, the secret was to sprinkle a little gunpowder on his corn
flakes every morning. The son did this religiously, and he
lived to the age of 93.

When he died, he left 14 children, 28 grandchildren, 35
great-grand children, and a 15-foot hole in the wall of the
crematorium.

.
.
.
.
Tell me it's not that kind of powder, Anth ... please!

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Date: Tues, Sep 26, 2000 at 08:14:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PS Jerry.
Message:
Your questions here are making me think Jerry, thank you.
Anth
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 10:02:47 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Jerry
Subject: You know what I'd like to know?
Message:
i wonder what m's daughter really thought when she got k not that long ago? did she really do it because she believed him or perhaps it was protecting the inheritance?
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:07:35 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ANTH THE HAMMER!
Message:
Boy you hit the nail square on the head this time! Wack!
I gotta agree with you.
Fed indoctrination that he is the one and only god as a child....
surrounded by adoring spaced-out devotees ever since....('proving' the point)....talk about an IDENTITY CRISIS!!!! It is hard enough for a well indoctrinated cult follower to break out of the mental bondage. (The self doubts, confusion, anger, fears, denial, self-censuring, anxieties, etc. Whatever people go through.)
What must it be like to be the 'god' and have it start creeping in your head that YOUR LIFE IS A TOTAL LIE!!! YOUR WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE! That's gotta be insane! Completely psychotic! Yow!
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:53:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
The same thing happened to the Dalai Lama, of course, but that boy turned out OK, even winning the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.

However you slice it, if the buck stops anywhere at all, it stops with Mr Rawat - whatever the origins of his depraved and deluded conduct. There's a contradiction in the 'poor little kid' defense of Rawat. This defence can be contrived for any criminal, and is true for a great many.

The subtext being urged on the survivors of Rawat's unethical exploitation and abuse is 'take responsibility' for your own life and to 'let go' of the past. When fat cat Rawat does these things, I will understand that these urgings are made in clear sighted good-faith. Until then, they sound perverse.

As the Dalai Lama says

SPY ON YOUR GURU!

And Anth, no we won't get hin on formal criminal charges for all his crimes - but, J'ACCUSE! Let him complain to the Courts...

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:46:37 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: RE:Dalai Lama
Message:
Very good point! I am glad you brought that up as I had forgotten about that really good 'parallel' example.
'Spy on your guru! Hilarious and EXCELLANT!

Oh, BY NO MEANS AM I IN ANY WAY TRYING TO DEFEND OR EXCUSE RAWAT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM!! NOT AT ALL! ESPECIALLY HIS ACCRUED PERSONAL FORTUNE! SCUMBAG!!!

As expressed by others here, I just am kinda morbidly curious about what a twisted, dillusional, neurotic and creeped-out state of conscious must be inside the Rawat skull!!! Bizarre!

Maybe someone should send Rawat SOME GOOD BOOKS TO READ!! Har Har Har

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 07:23:02 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: RE:Dalai Lama - my apologies
Message:
Sorry ExTex,

I read my 'Dalai Lama' post again and realised it sounds like I'm attributing a sub-text or hidden agenda to your like of thinking. That was both unwarranted and clumsy of me. I apologise.

So you're curious about what a twisted, dillusional, neurotic and creeped-out state of conscious must be inside the Rawat skull!!!. You wanna imagine what's going on in THAT mind, eh? Well, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din! And with far more intestinal fortitude!

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:20:20 (GMT)
From: Stev
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Dalai Lama - good point John
Message:
Maybe the DL is one of the good examples of how to handle power. I think his training was a lot more in depth. For example he had a rather excellent education. Also Buddhism having been around for 2500 years has many writings on psychology and doesn't discount the validity of 'right thought'.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:18:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Dalai Lama
Message:
Hi John,

A bunch of us went to see the Dalai Lama once, in my acid-head hippy days. I got to the door of the place where he met his visitors, but there was an armed guard outside his room. I thought, in my all knowing-20 year old tripped out way, 'If he needs an armed guard outside his room he can't be a real Master'.

Now I see any kind of 'Master' as an obstacle on the path to the video store, not to mention anything more profound.

You say that this defence can be contrived for any criminal. I can't see anything wrong with that. I think we have to try and understand each other.

It's something to do with understanding what a human being is. (I don't profess to have this understanding by the way John, I'm very interested in the subject though)

So, keep on truckin'
Anth the mending a puncture on his bike

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:49:21 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The gun may have been sensible-
Message:
Considering the very real possibility of assassination attempts. I guess he doesn't discount the need for us to take precautions to safeguard ourselves. I like this saying from Sufiland

TRUST IN ALLAH - BUT TIE UP YOUR CAMEL !

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 16:28:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition
Message:
Hi Steve,

Yes, I understand the purpose of the guard too. But I don't see the Dalai Lama as anybody with any kind of 'spritual wisdom' at all. He's the exiled head of a church where the church had lots of political as well as religious power. From what I saw of the Tibetan Buddhist monks when I was in Dharmsala, most of them are shoved into the monastry when they are about 8 years old. They have no choice about it.

That seems to be the age to get them out there.

Anth who became disillusioned with Buddhism too.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 17:57:13 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Dalai Lama - Just a man doing the best he can..
Message:
No I don't see him as any great shakes as far as enlightenment goes but who is ?

What if god were one of us ? Just a stranger on a bus .

Steve,the trying to put myself in the other person's shoes.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: They All are JUST men/women....
Message:
GODS....ENLIGHTENMENT....DIVINITY...MASTERS...HOLINESS...CHRISTS....SATGURUS....GOD!! This 'spiritual MONARCHY thing'!!!
GRRRRR...GRRRRR...GRRRRR
Are these not the VERY WORDS that got us all involved with this ridiculous sham in the first place???

'WARNING! WILL ROBINSON! WARNING! DANGER AHEAD!'
(Quote from Robbie the robot on tv show 'Lost In Space')

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:38:44 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Repost from below
Message:
>>>I can’t simply see people as they are at this moment. I can’t rip a person’s past away from them. Our past has formed us.

So true, that applies to all of us I think.
And there are many dimensions to us all.
And what we see in others greatly reflects who we are or think we are ourselves. Many of us were psychedelicized.

>>>(the courts) ......and most of the time appears to have little to do with ‘justice’ or doing the right thing.

Here, here!! (or is that hear, hear?)

>>>>Remember in the Wizard of Oz when the wizard turns out to be a big disappointment, not the big powerful wizard, but some daft skinny bloke with a PA? That fits my picture of Maharaji more accurately than some all powerful dictator.

The image of Darth Vader, dying and unmasked as the father of Luke Skywalker comes to mind. He's played some major roles and the worst of us can change.

Bobby, another guy continuing to process the junk in the basement.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:26:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: very interesting discussion
Message:
I for one, when I read the Mishler interview, think that Rawat has at times been troubled with the realization that he is not 'divine' and that what his whole life, and his father's life, is about is essentially 'conning' people.

This is what I think, as a child, he really wasn't responsible for being a part of the trip, probably even when he arrived at 13 to the West, I am not sure I could hold him responsible in a adult way at that time for what he was doing.

But I think around the age of 17-18-19- somewhere in those years he did have some sort of awareness that what he was doing was not right. The crying on Mishler's shoulder, the ulcer, the 1976 changes___ they all hint that there was a crisis of conscience going on.

And he ran like a coward from the crisis. That is what I think. He was looking at giving up living like a King, and being worshipped, he was also going to have to face some difficult truths about the 'family business'...and it was too scary, and too much personal sacrifice...and he ran headlong back into being a cult leader like never before.

Recall what happened AFTER the reforms of 76...then we went into a worship phase like never before. And it all began with RAWAT having some sort of renewed worship of Shri Hans. Remember that? He had some sort of epiphany where he began worshipping Dad in earnest. Why? Well, part of him may not have liked dealing with the idea that if he Prem Pal is a mere mortal, and a cult leader, than what was Dad? Also, if he worshipped Dad, than in a way I think it made it okay in his wierd logic for us to worship him and 'turn the reins of our lives over to Him' . I think he 'used' his father to run from what he had to do.

Then came the era of the mala and the jet and everything for guru. The incredible greed and materialism. I think he was desperately running from what he had seen, that he was not a good guy, and a fraud.

I think too that he as a man has a basic deep insecurity about himself and his ability to make it without being the wizard of Oz. I think that is why he is so money and status oriented. One of the most repulsive posts about him was some satsang where he was talking about his interaction with some non premie who didn't know how rich he was. I think he thinks all his money makes him legitimate. But really too, he knows he's not, he's not educated, all his money comes from the donations of premies and it is all ill gotten gains. He knows to the world he's a joke like Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

Susan's amatuer analysis from afar.

But, I do think he is responsible for being a cult leader. Now. I think the right thing for him to do would be to explain, apologize, and set the remaining premies truly free. I don't think he ever will do that because I believe he doesn't have the character.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:05:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pomiee Chicken?
Message:
I am not a lawyer, I wish I was, because then I will put every resource that I can come across to build a case.

You are still beating around the bush. His childhood past is not the issue. But then that is you is it not? I do not have feelings when it comes to the perfect con artist. He is guilty regardless. What execuse will you give him to get him out of the prisioner stand, diminished reponsibility, child abuse or peer group pressure?

No, I do respect your sentemental values, but not on this issue.

But then convince me.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:36:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Perfect Master World
Message:
Imagine that your father was the creator of the universe in human form- the Satguru.

That he died when you were about 8 years old. After your dad had died, you weren't cared for in a sensitive, loving way, and given the love and support you needed to start to deal with this terrible experience. You were the youngest brother. You'd be the easiest to control. So you were stuck on a throne, crowned, and people began to worship you as the Satguru.

You were the now the Lord of the Univers in human form. Even though you didn't know what this meant, you had extra power, and you could play around with it or whatever. Plus there was this thing called 'Knowledge', which all the Mahatamas were dolling out, as per your dad's instructions anyway. So you carried on going to school and was Perfect Master at home in the evening and at the weekend. Occasionally you'd be carted off to some big arena and you'd give the kind of talk your dad had, about Knowledge being everything or whatever. It didn't seem to matter what you said, they loved it anyway.

You come to Europe and America when you're fifteen, loads of young people follow you and tell you that 'Yes, you really are the Perfect Master. Yes, this KNowledge you gave me really is the Perfect Peace in my life. Yes you are my Lord etc etc.

And so it has gone on Salam. And so it goes on today. Around him it's never changed. He's never stopped being the Lord. I wonder if he ever can. Okay, maybe the forces of Kali Yuga are making one last push against the light, and he's drawing himself in before he blows all us demons into the void or whatever- but in Perfect Master World, nothing ever changes.

And everybody lived happily ever after.
Uncle Anth

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 03:06:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Time for overhall.
Message:
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse was published in 1991. It became an instant classic—a reference book which is at once readable, moving and helpful in a practically spiritual way. It has been of great benefit in my life and in the lives of many of my friends. I was delighted to discover in my research on the Internet that The Subtle Power appears on virtually every recommended reading list for Spiritual Abuse. It is also the most frequently quoted and referenced book on the subject on the Internet.
What follows is a summary of a small part of the book. If you find this at all helpful, buy your own copy of the book.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is:

Dedicated
to the weary and heavy laden,
deeply loved by God,
but because of spiritual abuse,
find that the Good News
has somehow become
the bad news.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book is structured according to the following plan.
Part I: Spiritual Abuse and its Victims
Introduction
1. “Help Me…”
2. Spiritual Abuse is Not New
3. Abused Christians
4. The Pre-Abuse Set-up
5. Identifying the Abusive System
6. When You Cannot Leave
7. Abuse and Scripture
8. Revictimizing Victims

Part II: Abusive Leaders and Why They Are Trapped
Introduction
9. “Because I’m the Pastor, That’s Why!”
10. “You Can Trust Me”
11. Image is Everything
12. Straining Gnats, Swallowing Camels
13. The Weight of Religion
14. “No Admittance”
15. Spreading “the Gospel”
16. The People Get Devoured

Part III: Post-Abuse Recovery
Introduction
17. How to Escape a Spiritual Trap
18. Renewing the Mind
19. Recovering Right Focus
20. One Response: Flight
21. A Second Response: Fight

Epilogue
Message to Perpetrators of Spiritual Abuse


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is “Spiritual Abuse?”
It is for
freedom that Christ has set
us free. Stand firm, then,
and do not let yourselves be burdened
again by a yoke
of slavery
(Gal. 5:1). “Spiritual abuse can occur when a leader uses his or her spiritual position to control or dominate another person.” (p.20)
“Spiritual abuse can also occur when spirituality is used to make others live up to a ‘spiritual standard’.” (p.21)

Spiritual abuse occurs when shame is “used in an attempt to get someone to support a belief, or…to fend off legitimate questions”. (p.22)

“When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christian—to gratify you, your position or your beliefs, while at the same time weakening or harming another—that is spiritual abuse.” (p.23)

“There are spiritual systems in which…the members are there to meet the needs of the leaders… These leaders attempt to find fulfillment through the religious performance of the very people whom they are there to serve and build. This is an inversion of the body of Christ. It is spiritual abuse.” (p.23)

“The Christian life begins with freedom from dead works, from religious sytems and from all human attempts to ‘please God’. It’s time for many of us to shake off the religious sytems and expectations we’ve created, and return to that joyful freedom in Christ.” (p.26)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Identifying the Abusive System
1. Power-Posturing
You were
bought at a
price; do not become slaves
of men
(1 Cor. 7:23). “Power-posturing simply means that leaders spend a lot of time focused on their own authority and reminding others of it, as well. This is necessary because their spiritual authority isn’t real—based on genuine godly character—it is postured.” (p.63)
“Those who are in positions of true leadership demonstrate authority, spiritual power, and credibility by their lives and message.” (p.64)

“As Romans 13:1 says, There is no authority except from God. Being hired or elected to a spiritual position, talking the loudest, or giving the most does not give someone authority.” (p.64)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Performance Preoccupation
“Among my
people are
wicked men
who lie in wait like men who snare birds…
their houses
are full of
deceit; they
have become
rich and powerful…
Their evil
deeds have no limit; they do
not plead the cause of the fatherless…
they do not
defend the
rights of the
poor”
(Jer. 5:26-28). “If obedience and service is flowing out of you as a result of your dependence on God alone, you won’t keep track of it with an eye toward reward, you’ll just do it. But if you’re preoccupied with whether you’ve done enough to please God, then you’re not looking at Him, you’re looking at your own works. And you’re also concerned about who else might be looking at you, evaluating you. Why would anyone keep track of their ‘godly’ behaviour unless they were trying to earn spiritual points because of it?” (p.65)
“Are obedience and submission important? Without question. This can be seen in Romans 13:1…1 Peter 5:5…and Hebrews 13:17. To bring balance, however, we must add to these verses an equally important passage. Consider the words of Peter and the other apostles in Acts 5:29: ‘We must obey God rather than men.’ Notice that Peter is saying this to the religious leaders he was disobeying. Out of context, obedience to leaders looks like good theology. Add the larger context, and you will see that it is only appropriate to obey and submit to leadership when their authority is from God and their stance is consistent with His.” (p.66)

“In Romans 12:2 Paul says, ‘Do not be conformed… but be transformed… ’. In a performance-based church or family, that verse might be applied like this: ‘Our church or leader is right; we have a truer, purer ‘word’ from God than others. Therefore, we must adhere to our formula or brand of Christianity as hard and fast as possible—so we won’t become like those out there who don’t think as we do. If I do not live up to all I’ve been taught here, I will be letting God down.’ This orientation squeezes people from the outside in. They are not transformed, they are conformed.” (p.66)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Unspoken Rules
“Woe to you,
scribes and
Pharisees,
hypocrites,
because you
devour widow’s
houses, even
while for a
pretense you
make long
prayers;
therefore
you shall
receive greater
condemnation”
(Matt. 23:14). “‘You know we must never disagree with the pastor on his sermons—and if you do, you will never be trusted and never be allowed to minister in any capacity in this church.’ In this case, the unspoken rule is: Do not disagree with the church authorities —especially the pastor—or your loyalty will be suspect. Rules like this remain unspoken, because examining them in the light of mature dialogue would instantly reveal how illogical, unhealthy and anti-Christian they are. So silence becomes the fortress wall of protection, shielding the pastor’s power position from scrutiny or challenge.” (p.67)
In some churches there is “an unwritten and unspoken rule that said, ‘It is better to be nice than honest’.”

“If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem.”

“The truth is, when people talk about problems out loud, they don't cause them, they simply expose them.” (p.68)

“Too many churches communicate this kind of shaming message: ‘The problem is not that your boundaries were crossed and violated, the problem is that you talked. If you would not have made such a big deal, everything would still be fine.’ If a person accepts that message, they will stop talking.

The real problem, however, is that if a Christian who feels violated stops talking, then the perpetrator will never be held accountable for his behaviour.” (p.69)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Lack of Balance
“Come to Me,
all who are
weary and heavy-laden,
and I will give
you rest. Take
My yoke upon
you, and learn from Me, for I
am gentle and humble in
heart; and you shall find rest
for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My
load is light”
(Matt. 11:28). Johnson and VanVonderen identify two extremes, both of which produce an unbalanced approach to living out the Christian life—Extreme Objectivism and Extreme Subjectivism.
“The first extreme is an empirical approach to life, which elevates objective truth to the exclusion of valid subjective experience.” (p.69)

“This approach to spirituality creates a system in which authority is based upon the level of education and intellectual capacity alone, rather than on intimacy with God, obedience and sensitivity to his Spirit.” (p.70)

“The other manifestation of lack of balance is seen in an extremely subjective approach to Christian life. What is true is decided on the basis of feelings and experiences, giving more weight to them than what the Bible declares.” (p.70)

“Even further, we believe it is dishonest—even dangerous—simply to receive and act upon a spiritual directive because you are ‘supposed to be submissive’, or because someone is ‘in authority’. In the end, God is the One before whom we must all stand, the one to whom we must answer.” (p.71)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They tie up
heavy loads,
and lay them
on men’s
shoulders; but they
themselves
are unwilling
to move them
with so much
as a finger
(Matt. 23:4). 5. Paranoia
“In a place where authority is grasped and legislated, not simply demonstrated, persecution sensitivity builds a case for keeping everything within the system. Why? Because of the evil, dangerous, or unspiritual people outside of the system who are trying to weaken or destroy ‘us’. This mentality builds a strong wall or bunker around the abusive system, isolates the abusers from scrutiny and accountability, and makes it more difficult for people to leave—because they will be outsiders, too.” (p.73)

“Ironically, Jesus and Paul both warned that one of the worst dangers to the flock was from wolves in the house (Matthew 10:16; Acts 20:29-30).” (p.74)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Misplaced Loyalty
“The next characteristic of spiritually abusive systems is that a misplaced sense of loyalty is fostered and even demanded. We’re not talking about loyalty to Christ, but about loyalty to a given organization, church, or leader.” (p.76)

“A common way this is accomplished is by setting up a system where disloyalty to or disagreement with the leadership is construed as the same thing as disobeying God. Questioning leaders is equal to questioning God. After all, the leader is the authority, and authority is always right. This causes people to misplace their loyalty in a leader, a church or an organization.” (p.76)

“There are three factors that come into play here, adding up to misplaced loyalty. First, leadership projects a ‘we alone are right’ mentality, which permeates the system. Members must remain in the system if they want to be ‘safe,’ or to stay ‘on good terms’ with God, or not to be viewed as wrong or ‘backslidden.’

The second factor that brings about misplaced loyalty is the use of ‘scare tactics.’ For example:
God is going to withdraw His Spirit from you and your family.
God will destroy your business.
Without our protection, Satan will get your children.
You and your family will come under a curse.

The third method of calling forth misplaced loyalty is the threat of humiliation. This is done by publicly shaming, exposing, or threatening to remove people from the group.

In the abusive system, it is the fear of being exposed, humiliated or removed that insures your proper allegiance, and insulates those in authority. You can be ‘exposed’ for asking too many questions, for disobeying the unspoken rules, or for disagreeing with authority. People are made public examples in order to send a message to those who remain. Others have phone campaigns launched against them, to warn their friends and others in the group about how ‘dangerous’ they are.” (p.76,77)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Secretive
“When you see people in a religious system being secretive —watch out. People don’t hide what is appropriate; they hide what is inappropriate.” (p.78)

“One reason spiritually abusive families and churches are secretive is because they are so image conscious. People in these systems can’t even live up to their own performance standards, so they have to hide what is real. Some believe they must do this in order to protect God’s good name. So how things look and what others think becomes more important than what’s real. They become God’s ‘public relations agents.’ The truth is, He’s not hiring anyone for this position.” (p.78)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnson and VanVonderen believe it is imperative to refocus victims of spiritual abuse on the truth about God and His “good news”. For this reason, they offer a list of “reminders,” from the heart of God as follows:
God loves us a great deal:
“See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are”
(1 John 3:1).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The authors of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse,
David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen, may be contacted at:

Damascus, Inc.
Box 22432
Minneapolis, MN 55422
(612) 537-0217

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.careact.org/

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3658/subtle.html

http://www.csj.org/pub_csj/csjbookreview/csjbkrev101subtle.htm

p.s. I am not a christ kind of person. But this stuff is good,

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:58:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Good site Salam
Message:
Hi Salam,

I had a look round that website- it's very impressive and even has a link to Sir Daves forum.

The book looks interesting too. I've written the title on a piece of paper which I will probably lose before I get to a bookshop.

Thanks Salam

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 09:06:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Where's the link to my forum? Plus top tip
Message:
I had a look and can't find it. If it's there I would like to change it because my forum has recently changed its URL.

Here's a top tip:

If there's something you've got to get together, (such as posting something), leave it by the front door and eventually you'll get so tired of stepping over it, you'll post the damn thing.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 10:34:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where's the link to my forum? Plus top tip
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

They call your forum 'Magical Mystery Tour Forum'

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_links/group_categories/grptype_eastern/lk_eastern_gurus.htm#Elan

I can't stick HTML in I'm afraid.

Thanks for the top tip.

Anth the may not be able to find the door after a few days.

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 08:52:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I didn't read it all but
Message:
this bit:

'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is:
Dedicated to the weary and heavy laden,
deeply loved by God,
but because of spiritual abuse,
find that the Good News
has somehow become
the bad news.'

doesn't agree with me. If there is God then He/She would love everyone just as deeply including the spiritual abuser.

God would love Maharaji just as much as the ones he has spiritually abused.

If there is such a thing as God then we may conclude that He/She is incapable of hating anything or anyone.

But God aside; not hating Maharaji is not that unusual, especially if someone has known him personally. I don't think it's necessary to hate Maharaji in order to seek that justice is done.

Neither is it necessary to not hate Maharaji. I mean, I don't follow this idea that we have to somehow 'rise above' hatred or repress it.

In the end, Napoleon's own troops hated him and jeered him after their defeat in Russia. This the man who was once adored by all his armies.

If someone puts himself forward as a leader or figurehead then he's going to attract adoration and hatred. That's an inescapable fact.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:01:27 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Repost from below
Message:
Hi Anth,
I've read some of this and don't want to forget the point I want to make. I had a fucked up childhood, worse then some, better then lots but I may have grown up to be really fucked up also but saw it coming and it has been an almost nerotic quest for me not to become it. At some point, no matter our past, we become responsible for ourselves. If I can work this way on myself and see success then I know anyone can if they want it. I know it must be hard for m to consider coming clean with the premies and exes but I bet if he ever did do it the positive outcome, if only in his inner esteem, would equal or surpass the huge effort and fear facing honesty it would surely take.
Life ain't always easy but it can be good if you let it, I do really belive it.
I just finished reading your post and think inspecting the 'junk in your cellar' is just the type of thing I was writing about above. I think a lot of you, not often but in esteem, ya know. :) Good luck, I know this shit isn't easy.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:49:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Repost from below
Message:
Hi Robyn,

It's nice to hear from you again. I think of you most days, because I've still got that tin of Ricola on one of my speakers that I bought to send you, but haven't got round to it yet. Every day I think, 'I must get it together and send Robyn that Ricola. Yeah, I'll get a padded envelope from work' or some other half hearted promise...aneeeewayyyyyy....

...you said,

'At some point, no matter our past, we become responsible for ourselves. '

I find this a very mature attitude to life, which I don't think I've achieved yet. I still feel like a sort of fugitive/parasite character in life most of the time. (Parasite at work, fugitive around the house.)

I sometimes think that what seperates us from the rest of creation is our special concentrated form of stupidity, rather than any sort of wisdom wer think we have.

Blither blather bedtime
anth the I'll get it together tomorrow man...yeah...might even tie my shoelaces too...got any vanilla pudding in the fridge?

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 01:31:27 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 2nd response
Message:
Dear Anth,
I was thinking about what I've written you here and just wanted to clarify that just because I believe that at some point we become responsible for who we are no matter what we came from that doesn't mean that I just left all that junk in my basement and moved to a nice new house with a clean and empty basement. I have gone through the crap down there, moved it around with me everywhere I've been and VERY slowly, over years I have cleared through a lot of it, still a ton left though and I keep finding bits and pieces of shit I'd thought I'd gotten rid of years ago. Sometimes it feels like I've gotten no where but when I think back 10 years, 20, 30, I see striking progress so I think it has been worth it.
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 18:01:03 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Repost from below
Message:
Dear Anth,
Hey, don't send the ricola tin, I like that it makes you think of me every day! I have a cold right now and used some of the other ones you sent. :)
It surprised me that you thought the thought of becoming responsible for yourself at some point no matter what, is mature. Thanks. I have known and believed in that since I was a kid, I sure knew I didn't want to follow in my mother's footsteps. Funny how we all turn out so different, even my 4 sisters and myself. I am not doing real well in being responsible for myself financially now, since my girls are on their own but behaviorally(sp) and emotionally I have almost always been.
As far as work I feel like if I am thought well of I am fooling everyone and at home I feel like a fugitive too I guess, that I am hiding out from getting my shit together, so I do have some way to relate to what you said, parasite/fugitive.
If we just do the best we can then that is good, eh?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 17:12:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bonjour Robyn
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Doing our best is better than good, it's fantastic. Crawling out of bed and achieving satisfactory results is good. Achieving minimum is satisfactory.

Being a premie definitely gave me a bad attitude to work. It was the craze for many years to go to as many programmes as possible. I remember thinking- 'But maybe I'm going to miss the Sermon on the Mount'.

Fat chance. Few hours spiritual claptrap more like.

Anth the got tired of waiting

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Date: Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 14:32:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: the essence of my shallowness...
Message:
I am not in control here, General Haig is, therefore I am not responsible. For anything. Including myself. Amen.
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 15:49:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The chicken and the egg
Message:
This is from ELK

Site Expectation

The founding principles remain the same. Enjoyinglife is not affiliated to any organisation, nor does it speak for one, nor does it seek to start one. It is an independent site where people are free to share their experiences.


Intro

And to find out more about the organisations which provide information about his teachings go to www.elanvital.org.

And from EV

Links

Other independent sites related to
enjoying and appreciating life with Knowledge
Enjoying Life with Knowledge
www.enjoyinglife.org.

Oh now I see it, the chicken did not come from the egg,
I mean the egg came from the chicken but then the chicken did
Not have any eggs so how come the chicken is here because without
The egg there is no chicken. No no no, that is how it goes

Other independent sites related to Enjoyinglife is not affiliated to any organisation And to find out more about the organisations Other independent sites related to Enjoyinglife is not affiliated to any organisation And to find out more about the organisations Other independent sites related to Enjoyinglife is not affiliated to any organisation And to find out more about the organisations, hum huhum hum hum...so hung ta ta la la.....

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:03:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Nowbody is linked to ANY organization
Message:
as a matter of fact !

EV's policy is having almost NO members! How could you expect to find ANY responsible person around Mr Rawat?

He is not responsible for ANYTHING.
EV's not responsible for ANYTHING.
No pwk is responsible for ANYTHING.

This is what's called a perfect organization !

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:31:46 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: you make it sooo clear to me
Message:
You mean

Elan Vital cooperates with organizations which have similar objectives in more than 45 countries around the world.

Are all independently dependent on nobody.

No wounder they removed the child molistation part. Otherwise
someone was going to be RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMETHING.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 17:02:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: similar objectives, sure!
Message:
nobody being responsible for anything!

Worse case is when you're fired or 'replaced'.

Truly responsible persons RESIGN from such organizations!

I did !!

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Image Conscious
Message:
The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgements and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism.

Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by 'worldly' people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and proceedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny.

This is not refering to EV. Hum ha huhum hum I am so hung, ta la ta ta ta hunh hung so hung hung.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:33:41 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Nigel's trilobyte
Message:
Nigel...I got one of these...mine is 500 million year old...
Both +ve and -ve... Is it worth anything???
It came from the desert
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 21:57:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Nigel's trilobyte
Message:
Hi Eddy,

Wrigley cost me about three quid (6 dollars) at the Liverpool Museum gift shop. Trilobytes are very common, never mind how extraordinarily ancient they are (in comparison with 21st century rarities such as 'perfect masters').

However, my trilobyte is somewhat bruised, battered and extremely careworn by time passing. If yours is perfectly formed with all-present, well-defined body parts it might be worth a lot more.

(But if I actually found one in a desert I don't think I'd ever want to sell it.)

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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 15:18:11 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel's trilobyte
Message:
Mine was found in the desert. Covered with FeO3 and about 6 cm by 4 cm...nice guy
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Date: Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:51:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel's trilobyte
Message:
Dear Nigle and Eddy,
Hey, the trilobyte I saw was beautiful, smooth, almost shiny black, perfect, not a nick. My professor had found it himeself at some dig or something, in the layers of sediment that were exposed. Who knows maybe it was a bouncing 200 yr old with no marks from a long existance. :)
Poor Wrigley, (I keep wanting to call him Mr Wrigley, isn't that from a kid's game or something?), all battered. No wonder he demands honor and respect. Personally I think a bit of ironed linen is the least you could do. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Eddy/Teddy
Subject: Eddy/Teddy could you email me please? (nt)
Message:
Thanks
anth
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:45:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Question.
Message:
I thought to bring this up from a thread below under 'The MD File'. I noticed that you are sympathetic to gm. You treat him as a person who is deluded. To you he has been thrown into the 'Lord in human form' game. That is fine with me.

But,

if you look at the life of a criminal, you will see that all the condition were there to make that person a criminal. The fact remains, in a court of law the judge does not concern himself with the background of the criminal, but with his actions. He compares his actions to a set of acceptable rules that our society have accepted and adopted as binding. The judge makes his decision accordingly.

I do not understand your stance on this. Assuming that you are correct about his upbringing, I do not see how that changes the fact that he has done wrong.

It is true that his wrong doing is in most cases non-material(can not remember the right word), i.e. mental, psychological...etc, and therefore it is hard to define exactly what the crime is because the law is a bit fuzzy when it comes to things like these.(note that I am not saying that his physical actions should thus be neglected)

To change the law needs a lot of discussion. That law will only change if the majority will accept it. I do not see that there is an acceptance on this forum to change the law neither the verdict. Maharaji is held as guilty by most of the exes does not matter what personal background he comes from.

Your personal view of him are yours and I do not intend to denigrate them.

I would very much like to see a draught document to be presented to court listing all the accusation against him. I think that will be the day.

Would you contribute your part in it or will you abstain?

Salam-the-inquisitor

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:11:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam, Jim, Marianne, Joe
Subject: Answer to Salam, Jim, Joe and Marianne
Message:
Hi Salam, Joe, Marianne and Jim

Thanks for your posts. They have given me lots to think about, and I am looking at this apparent contradiction inside myself, where on the one hand I’m saying the whole Guru Maharaji trip has turned into a big money making scam, in which premies are heavily discouraged from thinking rationally about their situation (cannot put a Rolls Royce in the boot of a mini etc). But on the other hand, I kind of feel sorry for the guy, because I can never look at him without seeing this little kid, who was stuck up on a throne and told he was God Almighty. Maybe comparing him to Michael Jackson is more accurate than Bill Clinton, in response to what you asked Jim. Someone who’s never had a chance to grow up naturally. I can’t simply see people as they are at this moment. I can’t rip a person’s past away from them. Our past has formed us.

So, to answer Salam’s, ‘nail me down question’,

‘I would very much like to see a draught document to be presented to court listing all the accusation against him. I think that will be the day.
Would you contribute your part in it or will you abstain?’

I’m afraid you may not like my answer Salam, I suffer from a traditional British working class, mistrust of the legal system. It’s always been used as a tool to ‘keep us in our place’, and most of the time appears to have little to do with ‘justice’ or doing the right thing.

But like I said earlier, if it’s serious, like child abuse, serious violence or something, that I’ve been involved in as a witness or someone it was reported to, I don’t have a problem co-operating with the legal system. . I reported Jagdeo to the Police in England. (See, I’m full of contradictions. It all looks fine from in here but, I sometimes wonder how it looks from the outside. Maybe you’ll tell me.)

But going to court would never be high on my list of priorities with Mr Rawat. First, I wonder what charges you’d have him up on, “Falsely impersonating the Creator of the Universe”. I wouldn’t have a problem taking the stand and saying, “Yes, I saw him dressed up as Krishna a few times.” But I suspect you mean something more serious and I’m not sure what it is. So maybe you could tell me and I’ll give you a more accurate response.

I prefer to look in other directions to express my feelings. The effect the ex-premie websites has had has been amazing. I’ve met some of the folk behind them, and the cult should do itself a favour and shut down right now, before they sober up and get organised. And this has all been done at very little cost, by a handful of people- usually with a good feeling in there somewhere. I love the power of information.

Marianne, the prisoner guard analogy came from Jim, but I understand what he means.

Remember in the Wizard of Oz when the wizard turns out to be a big disappointment, not the big powerful wizard, but some daft skinny bloke with a PA? That fits my picture of Maharaji more accurately than some all powerful dictator.

Joe, I take your point about you realising he’s not God and carrying on just the same, but I think he still believes he’s the Perfect Master, for real. Bob Mishlers stuff is revealing on this point. All the premies around him believe this, and nothing every happens to shake his very comfortable role as living lord.

The whole thing works better if he believes it himself.

So, I’m enjoying discussing this with you all. I feel you’re sometimes poking into dank corners of my cellar and asking me about the junk in there.

“Well that box, it’s got a bit of Zen, a bits of residual Christianity and Buddhism, twenty-odd years of walking the path of devotion and discovering it finished in a vandalised bus shelter, and a smattering of yobo-dust.”

Take care
Anth reading the entrails on a tightrope

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:17:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Just like to say that your post has been lost..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 16:34:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA what happened to AJW post?.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:51:36 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It's reposted above (nt)
Message:
hen tea
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:03:12 (GMT)
From: Ralph
Email: None
To: eDrek
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why so much time and effort on the antiRawat website? What did he ever do to you?
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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 02:16:22 (GMT)
From: Alf
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Because I like it, that is why
Message:
'Be not the self
of your own past
plunge into the sublime seas
dive deep and swim far
so you shall come back
with self-respect
with new power
with an advanced experience
that shall explain
and overlook the old.'
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: To warn others. Duh! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 04:51:27 (GMT)
From: Look
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Look what he did to YOU !!!! NT
Message:
my my
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:43:47 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Ralph / Rudy etc..
Message:
Forum guidelines request contributors pick an alias and stick to it. I hope you understand why we have to do that. Please observe in future.

Thanks,
Forum Administrator

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Ralph
Subject: Why the hell are you singling out me? Do you...
Message:
know me? (Oh, shit!)

Great, just what I need - another fanatic!

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 00:13:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: Why not?
Message:
He's still in business, isn't he - corrupting the minds of the young and foolish.

Where are you coming from, Ralph?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 23:47:56 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel-DV Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos?
Message:
Dear Mr. eDrek-

Well, first of all,I got to give you and all those other exes a big thank you, for all your heartfelt advice,humour, and home-spun wisdom.
As far as the hubcap goes,I think I'll stick with it,but just fire it up for that arti thing when I'm with some of my best buddies and we're all feeling that appreciation for the gratitude,or gratitude for the appreciation, or however that works...

And that old holy water,let me think about that for awhile....we don't have much money here at Farkel's Transmission Shop, but maybe we can work a deal later on...would you send me some on credit? If it helps with Jake's arthritis, I'd be happy to send a check...

Now,I've got another question for some of you old timers who spent most of your misspent youth in satsang halls....
See, the problem is this...
I've been inviting a lot of my buddies and family members to these new satellite feeds,and I thnk there's a bunch of gratitude starting to brew up here in Mobile...
Now I just let folks 'come as they are', you know, it's pretty informal here at the shop.We pull up a bunch of old oil drums and 5 gallon buckets and tires,gather round my little 12 inch black and white TV and let our master rip!
Now one feller, he came in with a bottle of water.
The next time, another guy came in with a can of pop.
But now, these guys are startin to bring in beer, and poppin them open during our lords inspirational messages!

Well, I got thinkin,next they're gonna come in and roll a few numbers and light them up during our lord's satsang!
Now I don't think that's right....but on the other hand,a lot of you guys say that our lord likes some good hash and a nice glass of cognac,and really prefers it over practicing knowledge, any time!

So,do you think it's ok to roll out the party materials during the holy videos, or should we wait until the videos are over and we're all watching the nature shots with the new age elevator music, followed by the credits that list maharaji and the pams?

Awaiting your wise counsel
TED Farkel
Mobile Contact Person and Synchronized Aspirant Team Coordinator

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 00:04:52 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: TED Farkel-DV Premie
Subject: Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos?
Message:
TED, I have to keep this short because Ralph Rudy is taking a personal interest in how many words I'm writing on the Forum these days. This interest in me has both my attorneys and my doctors very concerned. In fact, I'm having trouble adjusting to the increased dosage of my anti-psychotic medicine.

Consider this, what does the Master expect? The Master expects that you do as he says - not as he does. This cliche would indicate that you should not drink beer during the videos. The Master and Elan Vital expects and demands that all local video events meet strict criteria and standards in order to retain Elan Vital Local Video Event certification.

Failure to be certified has serious consequences, TED. Elan Vital, through its agents Milbank, Hadley, Tweed, and Crudly, will make every effort within its legal rights to restrict the showing and display of Elan Vital licensed items, which includes videos of the Master.

Worse than that, TED, is the fact that Elan Vital will make your crop of aspirants ineligible to receive Maharaji ancient and most sacred and copyrighted techniques of meditation from Elan Vital Instructors. TED, this would be really bad. Let's say that you get all your friends and family excited and appreciative of the Master and they are eager and ready to receive the Master's Knowledge. And let's say that your friends and family spend their time and money flying to a program where there will be a Knowledge session and they are turned down flat because they attended your local video events and you had be de-certified? TED, the Master's Knowledge is a serious thing. And more serious is the thirst that your crop of aspirants will have and how angry they will be with you when they realize that they will never be able to receive the Master's Knowledge because of you!

TED, you'd be better off dead (no threat intended.) Nope, TED, you need to do anything to avoid that situation. And, I can tell you what to do. First, you need to realize the god awful truth, TED. And the truth is that there is no way in hell that Elan Vital will ever certify a seedy country bumpkin like you to present local video events of the Master. I know that that is a harsh thing to say, but we've got to start with some honesty before we get into the dishonest deception that will follow.

What's got to happen, TED, is that you have to give your friends and family the Master's Knowledge. You, TED, will become Instructor TED. You'll probably have to create a subterfuge. So, take a weekend and go down to Miami and tell all your friends and family that you Elan Vital has invited you to become an instructor. Ok, you drive down to Miami in your pickup truck (make sure to get some 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' bumper stickers first) and you find a cheap hotel on the beach and you go visit the historic sites of Miami Beach - places like the Jackie Gleason Convention Center, the Broadripple hotel where all the great Miami premies lived, South Beach where Gianni got killed, Coral Gables or wherever Maharaji lived.

On the way back to Alabama stop off in Kissimimee and see the cow pie infested farm (any farm will do) where the epic festivals of late 70's were held. Anyway, get back to Alabama and make a special effort to be blissed out. Maybe speak with a hindi accent and walk around with your hands clasped in prayer. Tell your friends that while you were on Maharaji's yacht Maharaji personally told you that he thought that you were very, very special and he was very pleased with you.

Once you convinced your friends that you are a member of Maharaji's inner circle you've got it made. Start coming up with service for the aspirants to do. Start and end the local video events with some inspirational words of your own. Eventually, start increasing the amount of time of your discourses and decrease the Maharaji videos down to just the most basic 8 minute flowery introductory video. Finally move to presenting your own videos of you giving satsang.

Once you are at this point it is time to start abusing your aspirants. Belittle and chide the aspirants, demand money, and shift the emphasis completely away from Maharaji to yourself. Ok, now I know that you are asking whether this is really a good thing to do and I can tell you that not only is it a good thing to do, but it is a 100% necessary thing to do. If you do not abuse your devotees they will think that you don't care about them. This is the most critical time in the development of the devotee's life. What you, the Master, do at this point will decide the aspirants fate for years and years to come. It is just precisely at this critical juncture where the aspirant will start having doubts and they will consider not following through with the commitment at hand. This is the moment you need to be stern and steadfast. You need to challenge these weak and spineless aspirants with the most supreme and demanding challenge of their lives. You must convince them that they will forever be less than human if they turn their back on this one and only opportunity of a lifetime.

And just to drive your point home weed a few aspirants out right then and there. Humiliate them publicly in front of everyone. Do it so viciously that they will never return to cause you the slightest of trouble or ever instill any doubt in the remaining flock. Yes, be cruel. Not all the seeds that the Master casts will complete the cycle of fruition. Just a chosen few. The remaining aspirants will be that much more desperate and in the end more doggedly loyal.

TED, you need to understand the essence of the Master-Devotee relationship. This is not your ordinary relationship. No, this is an extraordinary relationship. You, the Master, are extraordinary. The Devotee is nothing but an excreta machine. Without the presence of the Master to inspire the Devotee the Devotee is nothing but another bug on the road. Yet the Master has taken such great interest in the Devotee that the Master went out of his way to step on the Devotee, the bug on the road.

TED, do you understand what this means? Can you appreciate the shear genius in this master's plan? If you can turn your ordinary friends and family of Shitburg, Alabama into devotees of the Master you will have changed your world. You won't have to ask dumb questions like is it ok to drink beer during videos. TED! Come on, man. This is Guru Puja here! You become the Guru and the Puja will come to you. Forget about the damn beer, TED. PUJA! More fucking PUJA than you'll know what to do with. Puja on Saturday night, Puja on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and every night, TED. Puja in the morning, puja in the evening, puja in backseat of your car, puja in the boss's office. Puja in the road. Fucking puja everywhere!

TED, I just want to say one word to you... just one word.
Are you listening?
'PUJA!'

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Date: Sat, Sep 23, 2000 at 20:18:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: BETTER THAN C.S. LEWIS' 'SCREW YOU' LETTERS
Message:
Gotta keep 'em.
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 12:19:09 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: TED Farkel-DV Premie
Subject: Early days Dope Heads
Message:
I remember a group of premies went over land to Prem Nagar in 71....led by the Dope head no other than Saflanand himself no other then aka brian whatsit..the only western Mahatma ever made...all with saffron kit..

Saf could never kick off his fiendish Dope habit and was always in trouble with M about that....eventually Saf was told to piss off and go his own way...and as I recall ...Saf to this day ( if he is still alive)...is a Dope head....

M was very pissed off with the Dope smoking premies in the early days...Dope was banned in all ashrams and not encouraged at all in premie communities...

Are these rumours really True that M smokes the odd joint now...

I always felt that Rajaji ( the dark horse) was the one who influenced M in these bad ways...a wayward brother running amock...

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 23:07:53 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Early days Dope Heads
Message:

Last I heard of Saph,neither he nor his wife would hear m's name
spoken i
n their house.(fairly recently) As he was reckoned to be the main man in bringing m to the West in the beginning it would be interesting to hear his story.

Maybe someone who knows him might persuade him to contribute to the historical record before it fades from living memory into
god knows what bullshit myth.

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 09:22:38 (GMT)
From: Gaga geegee
Email: None
To: TED Farkel-DV Premie
Subject: Make sure the windows are open with the rollies
Message:
and do not spill beer on the tv. Otherwise it's OK.
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 02:05:14 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: TED Farkel-DV Premie
Subject: Mr. eDrek-is it ok to drink beer during videos?
Message:
TED: My advice to you is to sychronize taking LSD while watching the videos. Then you will get the true meaning.


KIA

(this is a joke. i am not encouraging anyone, anywhere to commit illegal acts. so there, millbank tweedies...)

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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 05:54:25 (GMT)
From: Molly
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Beer is ok- but not belching. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 07:03:17 (GMT)
From: Harper Lee
Email: None
To: Molly
Subject: Belching is a Redneck;s Holy Breath nt
Message:
buuuuuurp
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