Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 05, 2001 To: Nov 10, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Jim -:- new email address (OT) -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:00:57 (EST)

JHB -:- John Macgregor's posts on EPO -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:46:14 (EST)
__ bill -:- A John Macgregor comment to consider -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:13:21 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Good idea bill [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:41:27 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Did anyone try to contact that India magazine? [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:14:36 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Other ideas. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:14:21 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- link to Barry's cartoons [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:56:23 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- I think I might be falling in love with you jhb -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:31:20 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Oh this will be fun! -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:16:06 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- check email [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:29:15 (EST)

Inside Edition -:- EV Monitors - This is the LASTstraw -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 07:44:32 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Oh Ye of Little Faith. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:31:45 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Krishna said: ''Don't worry about killing them... -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 19:28:39 (EST)
__ __ Inside Edition -:- Sorry Anth, I completely forgot... -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:36:24 (EST)
__ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- shagging and eating lettuce? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:27:29 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I was refering to Rabbits. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:34:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Re: I was refering to Rabbits. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:03:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sorry Bunny. -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:05:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Hi Anth -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:03:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- ROTLFLOL! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:56:24 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- The wrong cult -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:00:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Re: The wrong cult -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:55:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Sanyasins I knew -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 23:32:20 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- rabbits vs guru -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:20:57 (EST)
__ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Just like our own dear Royals and country toffs... -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:21:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey Bunny -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 12:38:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Hey Marianne -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:16:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh now I know -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:26:53 (EST)
__ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Ditto NT -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:37:50 (EST)
__ Bugs Bunny -:- Listen up, Guru Elmer Fudge the Truth Ji -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:44:40 (EST)

Barry -:- Toon time! Have a laugh! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:15:10 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Have microshaft hired you Barry -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:15:48 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- And we could share... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:30:49 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Hi Deb! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:53:40 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Tell me if you see it?(nt) -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:18:53 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:05 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- YES, MAHA and has stooped this Low -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:37:11 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Isn't it about ego & humiliation? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:16:42 (EST)
__ Isabella -:- Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:50:40 (EST)
__ __ The new kinder, gentler PatC -:- Thanks, Isabella -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:03:18 (EST)
__ __ Isabella -:- Sorry - Post did not go 1st time -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:52:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Thank you so much Isabella -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:48:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks Isabella! :) [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thank you Isabella -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:05:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ dv -:- If m doesn't condone it then these alledged -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:48:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Exactly [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:50:38 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Isabella, a question -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:54:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Isabella, a question -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:02:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Isabella, I did not attack you -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:26:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- It was a loaded question -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 20:31:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- It wasn't meant to be -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 08:16:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: It wasn't meant to be -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:59:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Astute and very true, Vicki -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:51:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Astute and very true, Vicki -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 19:46:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ridiculous intellectual contortions? Mel? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 20:41:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Ridiculous intellectual contortions? Mel? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:09:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Prove it -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:24:53 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Joe, that's 3 sites -- you forgot ... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- No, that one's down (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:00:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- No, it's up -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:08:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's still only TWO -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:11:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- But one site has two URLS -- -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:14:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, that explains it. (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:15:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wait a minute -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Your guess is as good as mine -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:16:36 (EST)
__ New York Sleuth -:- Ira Glasser and Charles Glasser -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:32:55 (EST)

Michael McDonald -:- Response to Macgregor -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:43 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Hi Michael. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:24:18 (EST)
__ AJW -:- FA, can you delete this post please. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:17:32 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Michael -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:08:49 (EST)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- Re: Hi Michael -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:32:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Michael, more clarification -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:16:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Quote of the week folks -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 21:57:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- ***CULT HARRASSMENT*** -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:37:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The Evil Scary Catweasell -:- More like PARANOIA -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 09:30:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cult harassment patrol -:- This person is David Roupell -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:21:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- And he is not the slightest bit frightened by -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:04:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You are no longer welcome here, Roupell -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:10:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Re: Michael, more clarification -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:27:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Michael, more clarification -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:50:40 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Welcome again --- without 'buts' -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:12:40 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- I agree -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:09:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Nope -- I REALLY disagree -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:02:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Absolutely right. No compromise on this. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:03:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- key issue st James, your right [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:42:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim, I didn't say that -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:40:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- ok Joe -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:51:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Jim, I didn't say that -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:50:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Jim, I was disagreeing -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:01:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- The bigger question seems to be.. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:38:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I Agree with Jim... -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:00:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 07:04:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:36:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:39:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- How about Family of Love. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:16:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: How about Family of Love. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:41:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Re: Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:49:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:02:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:23:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:45:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Re: Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:12:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Re: Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:24:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:02:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Re: Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:01:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Latvian video evening? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:56:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- I will email you soon nt -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:18:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Way to go Magiclara and Bunny [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:22:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- well I agree so there! -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:31:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry Jim but I think that's bollox -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:23:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Deep semantic doo doo -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:41:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- No Jim, I'm the second coming. [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:59:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- You're talking about me! -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 08:27:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Shit ! I was right Ham . -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:36:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ sivan -:- who? -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:55:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Consumer 2389 -:- Who is GMJ?, Krishna Get-up, . . . -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:03:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Zedlda -:- Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree too -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:56:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks for the reminder, Zelda [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:36:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I agree with you Jim, however.. -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:22:06 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks. Great post -- one 'but' -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:12:15 (EST)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- Re: Thanks. Great post -- one 'but' -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:22:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, I take back the welcome then -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:30:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Okay, I take back the welcome then -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:41:49 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thank you, Michael McD -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:06:00 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Thank you Michael -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:34:46 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thank you Michael MacDonald...Stick Around... [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:54:30 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Thanks from me, too-nt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:39:41 (EST)

gerry -:- Prem, the Pedophile's Pal -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:55:33 (EST)
__ AJW -:- What did Rawat know? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:26:16 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Absolutely right, Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:13:52 (EST)
__ __ **** again -:- Absolutely right? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:16:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Hey! Your Absolutely stupid! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:11:19 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:00:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: jimheller@shaw.ca
To: All
Subject: new email address (OT)
Message:
I've got a new email address if you're interested:

jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:46:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: John Macgregor's posts on EPO
Message:
John Macgregor's first two posts are now on EPO linked from the homepage.

Joe, your recent posts are next.

I know I'm behind with keeping EPO up to date, but I'm beginning to get the hang of this. Just to let you know, here are my plans for updating EPO:-

1. Joe's recent posts responding to PleaseConsiderThis and CAC. These will be linked from the Maharaji and the Internet section on the Site Map. There will be one page for each of the premie websites and our responses to them.

2. Rewrite of the Jagdeo section. This is something I've promised myself and others for a long time. John Macgregor's recent and coming revelations regarding Jagdeo make this task more pressing.

3. Document a recent exchange I had with EV's PR department (before they clammed up). Nothing particularly revelatory but interesting nonetheless. i promised them I would keep the exchange confidential if they kept communicating, but they didn't.

4. Document Jim's challenge to premies to set up an independent panel to adjudicate whether Maharaji really did say he was God.

5. Update the HomePage to better encourage newcomers to read the site. Bjorn for instance has admitted to only reading a few pages, but has spent many hours on the forums. I remember when I first looked at the site. I closed the page within a few seconds out of cult fear. I would like to use those few seconds to try to get newcomers to stay a little longer.

6. Update the site history, What's New, and correct other small factual and linkage mistakes (see, I found errors but the premies on LG and EV couldn't!)

7. In the longer term, look at the possibility of changing the 'look and feel'. Hamzen is playing with a few ideas but as I said to him, one of the most important design principles is ease of loading.

Let me know if you have any other ideas, but don't shout at me if I don't implement them.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:13:21 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A John Macgregor comment to consider
Message:
The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave.

For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them.

What is the name of that paper in India that did the sai baba expose
and maybe we should really write them and get them to do a big article

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:41:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Good idea bill [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:14:36 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Did anyone try to contact that India magazine? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:14:21 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Other ideas.
Message:
Hi John,

How about opening a night club in Vilnius, and getting the Beatles to reform (with Julian Lennon instead of John) to play on the opening night?

There should be an Elvis clone up and running be then too.

Anth, I'll email you.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:56:23 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: link to Barry's cartoons [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:31:20 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I think I might be falling in love with you jhb
Message:
Beautiful, total 'transparency' to use the present vernacular, goes so much further, and saves so much grief, and gets maximum respect, you'd be a good manager.
You're a gem.

If you want a hand with the html for the front page just e-mail us yeah.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:16:06 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: JHB
Subject: Oh this will be fun!
Message:
John, I encourage you to work with Ham on this if you guys can, because if you visit Ham's site you'll see he's got the touch and can really spiff the place of design-wise, IMO. Not that there is anything wrong with our present version but it does seem timely for a remodelling.

Likewise, I want to make a home page for this forum, explaining the mission statement here and the rules for participation clearly so cultweasels can't say they 'didn't know.' This will give us a little "tooth" when dealing with trolls. If anyone has suggestions please send them to me. If you click on my name in the introduction you can send me email. gkl1@techline.com I want to do this by email and not on this forum.

The page would also explain the whole 'donation' thing. I also want a public accounting of the funds I receive to be available online. (At least I think I do, and I need advise about this as well.) I want to do this by email also and not on this forum.

I feel we al have really turned a corner and have become much more formidable in our challenge to Maharaji's mind control cult scam which has enslaved some of our very best and most loved friends.

Retire and make retribution, Rawat.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:29:15 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: check email [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 07:44:32 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV Monitors - This is the LASTstraw
Message:
EV Monitors, here is a message for the boss, the client, the speaker, the don, the captain, the pimp, or whatever you call him these days.

We have put up with his sex with devotees, the Jagdeo disaster, alcoholism, drug abuse, lies about previously being the Lord of the Universe, massive financial impropriety, vehicular manslaughter and CAC attacks (who is the GENIUS behind that brilliant move?), but when you start SHOOTING AT BUNNIES in Amaroo, that's it. End of game. Tilt.

Premies, how can you possibly continue to worship and support a man who shoots at bunnies for fun?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:31:45 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Oh Ye of Little Faith.
Message:
Don't you realise. The Captain created the bunnies in the first place. Plus they are an illusion.

And anyway, if they've been shot through the head by the living Lord, automatically the immense good karma they accumulate from this act, will ensure they have the choice of eternal liberation or returning to earth as a Buddha Bunny, bringing enlightenment to those furry little mammals that think life is just about shagging and eating lettuce.

Don't you know anything.

Shri Anthji Patron Saint of Rabbits, Hares and Badgers.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 19:28:39 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Krishna said: ''Don't worry about killing them...
Message:
....they're dead already since they don't have Knowledge.''
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:36:24 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sorry Anth, I completely forgot...
Message:
...that the bunnies would be instantly liberated after being shot by the living Lord of the Universe himself, much like the person Rawat hit with his car in India.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:27:29 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: shagging and eating lettuce?
Message:
Anth

'shagging and eating lettuce' - wasn't that the other lot with Rajneesh/Osho? What did we get? Ashrams and abstinence - we were in the wrong cult!

Bunny

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:34:58 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: I was refering to Rabbits.
Message:
But there again, you're a Bunny too aren't you?

I suppose that's what's caused the confusion.

I meant that the rabbits shot by the Captain could return to Earth as enlightened bunny rabbits, spreading the word to their fellow bunnies.

Anth the just because I'm a mammal doesn't mean I'm a rabbit. (Didn't you used to have a rabbit running wild in your house once?)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:03:38 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: I was refering to Rabbits.
Message:
Anth,

It was my attempt at light hearted humour. I did understand you - I didn't realise you were being serious! Don't you enjoy any Rabbit pastimes? Lettuce, I mean! (Or in your case - grass)

That was our devoted friend who had the rabbit Anth! All that grass has damaged your memory cells.

Love

Bunny

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:05:24 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Sorry Bunny.
Message:
I got you muddled up with someone else.

I remember you now. Didn't you dive off the balcony at the Sherwood Rooms on acid one night? Or was it Mandrax?

Anth, yes, I remember it well. Lucky you landed on the fat bloke eh?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:03:13 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Anth
Message:
Thanks Anth,

I always be grateful for the selfless way you broke my fall!

love,

Bunnie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:56:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: ROTLFLOL!
Message:
And I don't laugh out loud much...

Thanks, from another bunny person :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:00:43 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: The wrong cult
Message:
maybe not. I knew a Rajneeshi who died of aids,certainly contracted in wherever the bearded hisser had his city, Colorado was it?

In times past we used to agree to disagree on our choice of 'masters'. From what I gather about authoritarian cults ,Rajneesh used total excess to depersonalise his followers & soften them up for the big flop your wallet opening required.

Rawat went for the total denial method. A more traditional & certainly longer lasting formula.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:55:37 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: The wrong cult
Message:
It was light hearted banter with Anth, Pat, I wasn't really serious. Though he thought he had to explain his analogy to me above! What I think is funny now is that we thought they were a cult and we were right. But we thought that about everything, didn't we? We had the Lord; they had a charlatan.

Actually I know quite a lot of the old Sanyasins, they have their issues, but many are a lot less fearful than many premies and a lot more open. The ones I know are well and pretty health conscious too. I know two people that died of aids. One was a female premie.

Bunny

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 23:32:20 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Sanyasins I knew
Message:
Got seriously messsed up - and they had to wear orange for Chrissake
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:20:57 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: rabbits vs guru
Message:
rabbits are a destructive pest in austrailia. shooting them as a pastime is akin to shooting rats .
alternatives are poison/dogs.
Z
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:21:08 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Just like our own dear Royals and country toffs...
Message:
........They make the same argument about foxes, get dressed up and have a lovely time hunting and tearing them to pieces. All with the higher purpose of helping the ecology. Very efficient. That's alright then.

I wonder what the Dalai Lama would think to M's recreational rabbit shooting? Interesting behaviour for a realised master. Of course, intent is usually pretty significant. As well as being a good shot.

Call me soft but I like bunnies. There's quite a few human beings that behave like destructive pests on this planet. I don't mean the obvious recent candidates; but many others who are seen as very 'respectable'. I wasn't planning to shoot them all.

Bunny

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 12:38:07 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Hey Bunny
Message:
You are hilarious. I love these lines about the bunnies going right to heaven along with the guy hit by Captain Rawat while driving. Then the stuff about the human being who behave like destructive pests...

You brought me some laughs that I really needed.
Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:16:29 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey Marianne
Message:
Hi Marianne,

Thank you - though I think the bunny liberation theme came in one of Anth's responses. Though I was a bit worried when I awoke yesterday morning and realised I had been dreaming of our fluffy friends!

Humour always helps - just with being alive - but particularly in times like you are going through right now. Bjorn's behaviour is outrageous. It contrasts dramatically with the integrity of the exes here that have, to my knowledge, never attempted to out cult members to their employers. I'm glad about that; it's important that we stay in integrity.

There are a small number of potentially dangerous fundamentalist premies around who may become more desperate as the flow of exiting premies gets stronger. (But for the 'Grace', perhaps, go I...?)They are in the minority and their behaviour will only serve to alienate the other sincere good hearted premies. Truth will out.

I have a lot of dear friends from my lifetime in the cult. Some are still in, some are in but wobbling, some are out and lurking and some I have watched come out publicly before I have. You and other CAC victims do have support from many who do not post here. I have reasons (other than fear) that I am not publicly out yet

We have met, Marianne, (ask Kelly, Anth or Hamzen) and it would be lovely to meet you again at the next Latvian .

I hope you are feeling better.

Lots of love

Bunny

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:26:53 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Oh now I know
Message:
I think I have figured out who you are. Email me if you want. Thanks for your kind words and support.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:37:50 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Ditto NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:44:40 (EST)
From: Bugs Bunny
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Listen up, Guru Elmer Fudge the Truth Ji
Message:
This wascally wabbit is gonna get you.

PatC ;)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:15:10 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Toon time! Have a laugh!
Message:
Squish em, burn em, poke em, eat em, mmmm mmmm good! It's....
[ http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/mushy.html ]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:15:48 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Have microshaft hired you Barry
Message:
or should I be getting paranoid?

No sign of on my screen

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:30:49 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: And we could share...
Message:
lies and criminal stories about Maha around the campfire.

Hi Barry

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:53:40 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hi Deb!
Message:
I got a job at Black's photograpy. Thank Christ! I thought I was going to go mad without work. feeling better now- a little. still colder than a penguin's fart here, but you just do what ya gotta do I guess. Stupidest thing I ever did was move here. Anyhow, hope your new job's working out for ya. Later!
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:18:53 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Tell me if you see it?(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update
Message:
As far as I know, there are STILL two sites on the Internet attacking former followers of Maharaji who are posting on the internet. Here are the two sites:

http://right2hate.webhop.net/

http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/

I have received no response from Elan Vital after I asked them to say something about this. On Elan Vital's website, the 'press' section is closed down. No statement on Maharaji's website either.

Also, no statement on the Please Consider This website from Erika/David Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff (and the other guy whose name I don't recall).

What does this mean?

When CAC appeared a couple of months ago, Elan Vital was quick to put up a self-serving press release saying they had nothing to do with it.

Also, a number of premies posted their horror and disgust at what was going on, including David Andersen, who said it was indicative of a "cult."

This time, with FIVE attack sites, two of which remain up on the internet, we see nothing. Silence.

John MacGregor tells us that Maharaji is certainly behind these websites. That, combined with the silence from both him and Elan Vital is very disturbing.

Plus, premies, themselves are also saying nothing. Has the Maharaji cult sunk to that level?

Comments? Personally, I'm at a loss to explain this. Like what Marianne said yesterday, why would Maharaji do something that so clearly backfires on his ability to ever get any new converts, expose him to even more damaging publicity, and is certain to only increase the resolve of those attacked because they can't give into blackmail?

The site with the 'red' background, the one that names ex-premies and associates them with Neo-Nazi and KKK sites is especially foul, and amazingly vicious. Plus it's clear that somebody put hours upon hours of time, as well as considerable expense to put it together.

Is this what donations to Elan Vital are being used for? Of course, we will never know, because finances are all part of the secrecy which is one of the hallmarks of Maharaji's operation.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:37:11 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: YES, MAHA and has stooped this Low
Message:
Hey Premies,

Does it look like Maha is a big wonderful SatGuru whose goal is to bring to the planet? Reminds me of the movie NATURAL BORN KILLERS that I just finished seeing in my film class.

Is this the Guru of ideal LOVE that you've dedicated your heart, money, careers, relationships to adore?
Is he the highest human soul who is capable of bringing Peace to the Planet?

Maha is reeking with ANGER and FEAR. Can't you see that?

When you keep him isolated in mega millionaire lifestyle and shelter him from the scrutiny of the world, you don't get feedback.

Well, premies, this is YOUR feedback. Do you like it?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:16:42 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Isn't it about ego & humiliation?
Message:
They've reached a point where their brains are fusing because the anonymity they hid behind for years gave them a feeling of being invulnerable, and enabled the lila/gm's grace state to flourish, then all of a sudden it's exposed as just luck.
So from never having any critical thinking involved around gm, it's all out in the open.

If you then have a bundle of conceptual baggage AND a large spritual ego/arrogance you flip, and all the strategic thinking is gone.

Gm's a classic example of this when he loses the plot, x-rating saved him loads of times no doubt, but exes can't be x-rated.

Like with a child's ego that thinks the whole universe exists just for itself really, and the inevitable consequence of uncritical thinking in critical times.

If it wasn't so nasty you'd have to think how sad and pathetic that they can prove so easily what a cult state they are in.

Same argument I think for those premies like cackweasel who show up here and make themselves look stupid, they don't care because they have no power left so any power however stupid and irresponsible is better than none.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:50:40 (EST)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:03:18 (EST)
From: The new kinder, gentler PatC
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Thanks, Isabella
Message:
I used to read your posts on LG because you sounded like the only sane person there sometimes. I remember when you stated that you did not approve of CAC and were troubled by the Jagdeo affair. That's enough for me.

Now if only you could see that a man who unnecessarily shoots rabbits for sport (he eats lots of meat but he's got enough money to buy filet mignons every day) is not a very nice person and that's why those closest to him (people like the CACroaches) are not nice either.;)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:52:34 (EST)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Sorry - Post did not go 1st time
Message:
Joe writes:
Also, a number of premies posted their horror and disgust at what was going on, including David Andersen, who said it was indicative of a 'cult.' This time, with FIVE attack sites, two of which remain up on the internet, we see nothing. Silence. John MacGregor tells us that Maharaji is certainly behind these websites. That, combined with the silence from both him and Elan Vital is very disturbing.


Since I weighed in last time, it didn't seem neccessary to weigh in again. I suspect the 'others' feel the same. However, to assuage your fears I will repeat what I said before. YES - CAC and all its relatives still suck. They have no place in this or any other world. They are mean-spirited and basically lame. Of course, the fact that they are lame make them no less hurtful, and I apologize to any of you who have been named on them. I do not believe that Maharaji is behind these sites - just doesn't seem to be his style. Of course, I have no proof of that, and maybe John has inside information that I don't (me not being an international organizer and all). As for Elan Vital, I don't think they are behind it either...but I understand you would have no reason to believe me. Just my opinion. Hopefully they will reach their final resting place (the bit bucket) soon. Regards, Isabella
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:48:24 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Thank you so much Isabella
Message:
Hi Is,

Your integrity is admirable. I am really happy to hear you discern about what you do know and what you don't know. It's sad that other premies think they are above the law because they are doing this for Maharaji.

It pleases me to know that many premies like yourself have a sense of morality. We can't measure knowledge and meditation but we can measure integrity and ethics. You measure high on the scale. Good for you.

Thanks for being a supporter.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Thanks Isabella! :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:05:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Thank you Isabella
Message:
I appreciate that. It was just that the silence was getting deafening.

Isabella, why do you think neither Elan Vital, nor Maharaji have said anything about this? Don't you think they should? Have you contacted them to say how you feel?

As to Maharaji's 'style' all I can say is that I highly doubt this would be happening if he didn't condone this. And certainly since he failed to say anything about it the last time, and nothing now, he appears to be approving of it, even if he didn't instigate it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:48:21 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If m doesn't condone it then these alledged
Message:
premies with their actions have split off from m's agya. New Age Jihad. Hmmm, where have I seen that lately? Hey, this may be the link to make this issue relevant enough for '60 Minutes!' The plot thickens...
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:50:38 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Exactly [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:54:29 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Isabella, a question
Message:
Isabella,

What do you think about Maharaji trashing personal letters to him from premies?

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:02:01 (EST)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Isabella, a question
Message:
Not easy to answer your question because of the way it was put (sort of like, 'When did you stop beating your wife?')

And, I also did not stop by to engage in any arguments (as Mr Finch mentions below, its not a particularly safe place for people like me).

I simply stopped by to let Joe know that I am one premie who re-affirms their abhorence of tactics like CAC. Just as I have let you know in the past that I am one premie who abhors the Jagdeo situation.

Best,
Is

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:26:37 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Isabella, I did not attack you
Message:
Isabella,

Please read my question and your answer again. I did not accuse you of 'beating your wife' or anything equally bad. I asked you a simple question about one facet of Maharaji's behavior as revealed by John MacGregor. It really wasn't an attack, just a question to someone I know takes these issues seriously.

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 20:31:29 (EST)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It was a loaded question
Message:
I did not mean that you attacked me. But the question was 'How do you feel about Maharaji trashing letters from premies?' The question has a tone that seemed to disallow objectivity.

It was stated that he throws the letters away and does not typically read them. At least in my mind that is not the same as trashing them.

So, how do I feel about it? I guess I have a couple of thoughts on the subject:
1 - If he gets a large volume of them (volume was not mentioned), it would make sense that he wouldn't have time to read them all.
2 - On a certain level, I would hope that most of the people who have written these letters, at least over the past 15-20 years or so, would write them because they wanted to express something. And that, the feeling they had in writing them (especially if they were expressing gratitude) might be worth almost as much as the knowledge that he read them. So while John sort of mocks the experience of those premies who spent all day picking them out, perhaps to many of those people, the happiness they had in doing that was worth the price of admission. You'd have to ask them, I guess.

The few times I have sent him a note (very few), that was my experience. Not in some dreamy, magical way, but in a real, visceral way.

To be honest, I was more troubled about the bunnies, but then, I'm a rabid vegetarian. I long ago accepted that many people I love do not feel the same.

Take care,
Is

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 08:16:06 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: It wasn't meant to be
Message:
According to my dictionary, the verb trash means 'discard as worthless'. Isn't that what Maharaji does through his staff? I think you are a little defensive here.

Anyway, regarding the content of the letters, many people here had serious questions that they felt at the time only Maharaji could answer. They weren't all just expressing gratitude. Throwing those letters away without having anyone read them (and there have been no shortage of sincere people wanting to serve him) is an act of a callous man.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:59:33 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: It wasn't meant to be
Message:
Callous but definitely calculated. Not reading the letters absolves him of any legal liability, once again. The Johnny Carson Show used to do the same thing, as I'm sure many entities do that do not want to be held accountable legally. In the case of the Carson show, it was to avoid being accused of using unsolicited material ie jokes, etc.

EV and it's little stash of lawyers are definitely up on corporate shenanigans and advise m accordingly. In his case, though, it may suit his indifference to premie's plights. The ole two birds with one stone.....

Although, there are federal sexual harrassment laws that state the company, etc etc are to be held responsible for the environment, whether or not they were told about the circumstances or person/persons inflicting the harrassment. They literally are required to know even if they don't "know".

So EV/M's claiming ignorance really doesn't hold water in the USA, but I'm sure they know this. And if the new information about EV dissolving comes true, they are probably just biding their time, stalling Abi and any others that have legitimate claims on m and ev. When Mata had control of DLM, that was one thing, but when M took on EV, even if they deny it, then he is responsible. Regardless, he individually, is responsible and more than likely can be sued on an individual basis, ie, why he refuses to meet with Abi or acknowledge receipt of notification concerning Jagdeo.

Only know this because the corporate world taught me well.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:51:32 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Astute and very true, Vicki
Message:
I'm sure, as many have discussed on this Forum over the years, the letters ranged from simple gratitude to people ready to commit suicide, and everything in between. Since he placed himself as the ultimate authority, people were asking. But his lawyers probably told him not to answer most of the letters, and to close the ashrams, too.

Bests,

--f

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 19:46:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Astute and very true, Vicki
Message:
I'm sure, as many have discussed on this Forum over the years, the letters ranged from simple gratitude to people ready to commit suicide, and everything in between. Since he placed himself as the ultimate authority, people were asking. But his lawyers probably told him not to answer most of the letters, and to close the ashrams, too.

Bests,

--f


---

Just think of the personal liability Rawat had for the people in his ashrams. No wonder someone advised him to close them. Rawrat probably walked out of that meeting and told one of his lieutenants to 'do it.' I can't imagine any agonizing, soul searching or any thought out of him other than to protect his ASSets, which is all he is about anyway.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 20:41:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Ridiculous intellectual contortions? Mel?
Message:
I did not mean that you attacked me. But the question was 'How do you feel about Maharaji trashing letters from premies?' The question has a tone that seemed to disallow objectivity.

It was stated that he throws the letters away and does not typically read them. At least in my mind that is not the same as trashing them.

So, how do I feel about it? I guess I have a couple of thoughts on the subject:
1 - If he gets a large volume of them (volume was not mentioned), it would make sense that he wouldn't have time to read them all.
2 - On a certain level, I would hope that most of the people who have written these letters, at least over the past 15-20 years or so, would write them because they wanted to express something. And that, the feeling they had in writing them (especially if they were expressing gratitude) might be worth almost as much as the knowledge that he read them. So while John sort of mocks the experience of those premies who spent all day picking them out, perhaps to many of those people, the happiness they had in doing that was worth the price of admission. You'd have to ask them, I guess.

The few times I have sent him a note (very few), that was my experience. Not in some dreamy, magical way, but in a real, visceral way.

To be honest, I was more troubled about the bunnies, but then, I'm a rabid vegetarian. I long ago accepted that many people I love do not feel the same.

Take care,
Is


---

Mel,

Isn't this funny? Isabella saying that it's not really that important if Maharaji throws out premies' letters as they had such fun writing them? Now, here's a question for you: do you think Isabella actually believes this? That it's fine for Maharaji to deceive premies like this? Don't forget, it's not as if he ever said he doesn't read the letters. Indeed, back in my day, he said just the opposite.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:09:05 (EST)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Ridiculous intellectual contortions? Mel?
Message:
I did not mean that you attacked me. But the question was 'How do you feel about Maharaji trashing letters from premies?' The question has a tone that seemed to disallow objectivity.

It was stated that he throws the letters away and does not typically read them. At least in my mind that is not the same as trashing them.

So, how do I feel about it? I guess I have a couple of thoughts on the subject:
1 - If he gets a large volume of them (volume was not mentioned), it would make sense that he wouldn't have time to read them all.
2 - On a certain level, I would hope that most of the people who have written these letters, at least over the past 15-20 years or so, would write them because they wanted to express something. And that, the feeling they had in writing them (especially if they were expressing gratitude) might be worth almost as much as the knowledge that he read them. So while John sort of mocks the experience of those premies who spent all day picking them out, perhaps to many of those people, the happiness they had in doing that was worth the price of admission. You'd have to ask them, I guess.

The few times I have sent him a note (very few), that was my experience. Not in some dreamy, magical way, but in a real, visceral way.

To be honest, I was more troubled about the bunnies, but then, I'm a rabid vegetarian. I long ago accepted that many people I love do not feel the same.

Take care,
Is


---

Mel,

Isn't this funny? Isabella saying that it's not really that important if Maharaji throws out premies' letters as they had such fun writing them? Now, here's a question for you: do you think Isabella actually believes this? That it's fine for Maharaji to deceive premies like this? Don't forget, it's not as if he ever said he doesn't read the letters. Indeed, back in my day, he said just the opposite.


---

Jim - you're such a trip.

Intellectual contortions. I would say you're a master of them. And proud of it, it would seem.

Gotta go now,
Is

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:24:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Prove it
Message:
Intellectual contortions. I would say you're a master of them. And proud of it, it would seem.

Prove it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, that's 3 sites -- you forgot ...
Message:
This one:

http://www.powow.com/right2hate/

The webhop.net site looks like some sort of free redirect service that someone was using to redirect the powow site. These CAC-o, crack-o people are like fungii or anthrax. The premie trolls are a disease, I'm afraid. They act like a disease, because their minds are diseased, and thus they display disease-like activity. And when you have a disease, you are SICK.

Apparently, Knowledge was NOT a cure. Ergo the sickness. Hope it's not terminal. They are a disgrace to their master who seems to have nothing to say these days. But then again, he never really had anything to say anyway, but for some of us, he spun a lotta cotton candy fluff.

Yucko.

Here's the info on webhop from the site in my link:
'The WebHop Redirection service provides web redirection services to complement our Dynamic and Static DNS services. The web redirection allows you to alias your long, hard-to-remember, ugly URLs to a short top-level hostname within one of our offered subdomains.

Hosts can be cloaked, hiding the true URL of your site from end users, or uncloaked. Cloaking for donators is totally invisible, but non-donators with cloaked sites will have a pop-up ad displayed. Donators also have the option of using a CNAME to point to their webhop. (The user must set this up him or herself.)

If you are having problems with your WebHop or just have questions, visit the WebHop support section of dyndns.org's support website.'
[ Webhop ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:00:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: No, that one's down (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:08:58 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, it's up
Message:
And I cleared my cache to make sure. That's 3 sites. The two you listed, and the one at the link.

--f
[ click the link ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:11:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: It's still only TWO
Message:
I put the same one with two addresses in my email. Sorry
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:14:12 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: But one site has two URLS --
Message:
That's what I was pointing out.

the webhop and the powow sites are the same site, at two different URLS. That's because they used a redirect service for the second version of the same site.

So it makes two sites, at 3 URLS.

--f

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:15:40 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, that explains it. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:13:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wait a minute
Message:
aren't the webhop and powow sites the same?

Are they in two different locations?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:16:36 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Your guess is as good as mine
Message:
If you read the webhop stuff, it is specifically used to disguise URLS.

So right to hate has 2 urls. Whether it's redirecting the powow site, or redirecting the same web pages put at another location, I can't tell you. Only the fungii knows.

--f

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:32:55 (EST)
From: New York Sleuth
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ira Glasser and Charles Glasser
Message:
The http://right2hate.webhop.net/ site includes a quote from Ira Glasser, Executive Director of ACLU. Ira Glasser appears to be based in NY, as is Charles. I've tried to find out if they are related (which would explain the link up) but have not been able to.

Perhaps someone else here has more information on this. If they are related, a letter to Ira about his son(?)'s activities might be effective.

NYS

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:43 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to Macgregor
Message:
Firstly, I'd like to support and congratulate John Macgregor in his efforts to come to grips with the explosion of his dominant paradigm, aspects of which I have shared.

Secondly, I'd like to confirm that John is who he says he is, though premies and exes who know him could confirm that from the information he has already provided. I live some 20 kilometres 'up the road' from John and have known him since the early 70s, when he accurately described one of the pamphlets I had written for Divine Light Mission as 'trite'. As to my bona fides, I was at the training in September 99 that John mentions and others who were there will know that Mr Rawat noted the number of 'Macs' at the event (four in all, I believe) and made some sort of light-hearted remark about a Scottish takeover. Unlike John, I don't intend to give out my home address for anthrax mailings but if anyone, premie or ex, wants to debate the issues and paradigm at stake I can be reached at PO Box 257, Mullumbimby NSW 2482, Australia. (I made a similar offer when I 'resigned' from EV but I suspect it was only seen by one person.)

I hadn't visited this forum in months until a premie hunting for Pam piqued my curiosity. I went looking for Pam and suspected John to be 'her' from the intelligence of the writing (and the quotations from Jung) but didn't enquire further. I see John's 'coming out', as it were, as highly significant and indicative of the meltdown of a culture sustained over three decades in the West by a number of false premises, which include the artificial and psychologically damaging division of the human psyche into the 'heart' and the 'mind'; the schizoid presentation of an urbane EV to the world compared to the devotional EV which is the core of the organisation; and the belief, perpetuated by Mr Rawat either through his own delusion or sheer cynicism, and supported by an immense amount of trust from many good people, that the guiding presence behind EV is 'perfect', the corollary being it is okay to obey him implicitly and unquestioningly.

The last premise John characterised somewhere in his 5,000 word post as 'projection', a good ole-fashioned psychological term I tend to agree with in this case. It was us who poured our trust into Mr Rawat and made him assume in our eyes the powers of blissfulness, awareness, knowingness. whatever. You can also project that onto your lover or, to a lesser extent, onto your dog. Positing that Mr Rawat was divine sunk the hooks in even deeper. No wonder the smashing of that paradigm can be painful, no wonder so-called exes and premies alike can end up spitting venom at each other. Once out, however, the experience can be liberating as well as confusing. It was quite a step as a 50-year-old man to say to myself, Maharaji has no greater grasp of 'reality' than do I. And to extend that even further, to consider the whole history of mysticism and meditation may have no absolute basis, that for example, the experience of bliss may just be an evolutionary mechanism for a big brain to cope with the passage of time or to manufacture hope.

But that's the subject of another post. In the meantime, I hope it all doesn't end in tears, but the disintegration of large chunks of the EV structure seems ever more likely. As John and I discussed on the phone, it is a remarkable piece of history to watch a paradigm fall apart, especially when it's your own.

(Then again, the Catholic church has flourished for centuries on far less subtle propositions, and a lot more real estate. If Amaroo can be sold and the organisation re-structured, perhaps EV can toddle along like the Theosophical Society for another century or so.)

As John noted of the forum, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, 'After the years of EV's information-suppression, in-group secrets and language-distortion, this feels to me like a borderline spiritual experience.' It is the miserly control and manipulation of information which could be EV's and Mr Rawat's downfall. When I found myself as an EV PR person making statements which went dead against my instincts as an information-hungry journalist, cracks appeared in the paradigm.

Earlier cracks appeared as a result of the training John mentioned. Stay tuned for more.

Michael McDonald

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:24:18 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Hi Michael.
Message:
Hi Mike,

Good to read your post, confirming the cult is falling apart at the seams. You read it here first. And heartening to see another escapee get over the wire from Camp Cultitz.

What's all this 'training' bollocks? We never had that in my day. Shit, in the 70s you could attain liberation on devotion alone. I don't know what the world's coming to.

I disagree with your vision of the type of cult that will exist after everyone else has gone home. I think it will be more 'snake biters' than 'theosphists'. Snake biters, with a pinch of fascism, dash of Micky Mouse, teaspoon of Michael Jackson, and 4 oz of used car salesman.

Anth, yeah for I have seen the future and spake. As it is typed on the internet, so shall it be. Aaagh. Uggh. (collapses in spiritual ecstasy).

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:17:32 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA, can you delete this post please.
Message:
It's a computer error.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:08:49 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Hi Michael
Message:
It's really nice of you to drop by and support your friend.

It's also a great thing that you can have someone to relate to at this fragile time in your life. The forum is nice but personal friends are better.

What form did 'the PAM hunt' take? I thought Maha just said 'if you don't like, than leave? So, what's the big deal to them.

I find that freaky and very dangerous that they would act like bounty hunters. The whole cult is creepy. Do you think that a lot of x-rated premies afraid? How scary MAHA has become.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:32:12 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hi Michael
Message:
It's really nice of you to drop by and support your friend.

It's also a great thing that you can have someone to relate to at this fragile time in your life. The forum is nice but personal friends are better.

What form did 'the PAM hunt' take? I thought Maha just said 'if you don't like, than leave? So, what's the big deal to them.

I find that freaky and very dangerous that they would act like bounty hunters. The whole cult is creepy. Do you think that a lot of x-rated premies afraid? How scary MAHA has become.


---

I wouldn't quite put it in the same category as bounty hunting. An EV director emailed me and politely asked if I knew who Pam was. John can testify that others received similar enquiries. John's server was obviously traced to this area. In PR terms, it is research for the purposes of damage control and/or legal action, though I would suggest defamation proceedings against Macgregor would bring on one almighty headache for EV.

I'd rate it as a little creepy, but no creepier than the way a lot of corporations behave. It's important to understand that if EV is pushed to the wall, it will fight back. And it is important for EV to understand that putting up hate sites, if this is the case, is no viable alternative to real dialogue with the disaffected.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:16:34 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Michael, more clarification
Message:
You're saying they are just handling this just like any other corporation would do but it appears to be taking on the form of how Scientology handles it's defectors.

I'm not looking to make inflamatory comments just for the hell of it. My concern is real. Look at CAC and look at Scientology cyberstalking site hurting their defectors. Please elaborate.

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 21:57:59 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Quote of the week folks
Message:
'I'm not looking to make inflamatory comments just for the hell of it.'

No no no, there's absolutely NO record of this kind of thing in your file dear.

Why on earth would YOU THINK that's the impression you constantly give?

I can't imagine...

aahh, guilt's a bitch ain't it?

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:37:20 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: ***CULT HARRASSMENT***
Message:
To any officer or other perosn of the law,

This person, David Roupell, has been harrassing me from the day I arrived at the EPO forum. He would change his handles at least ten times, in order to outnumber me and all of the posts were bent on viciously attacking me.

This was very confusing to me at first, as I thought all the members of the cult had gone insane.

His posts are frequently followed by his accomplice CATWEASEL who are primarily targeting all the women and disturbing us with mysogonistic comments. As their years of posts will prove, their writing is a chilling similarity to the authorship of the CAC harrassment sites. I'm sure you can imagine our concerns.

They never address our posts. They attack to instill fear and control over us and silence our comments and concerns regarding Maharaji.

Please contact me through Mr. Conlon or Mr. Sprague if you would like further comment on this account.

Sincerely yours,

Deborah Rose

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 09:30:35 (EST)
From: The Evil Scary Catweasell
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: More like PARANOIA
Message:
And then he took out a big stick and chased me all over the schoolyard until Miss Doubtfire (Pat Conlon) shoved it up his date and told him to behave...Well officers , looks like you have some real crazies here. Good luck in trying to work a case up for them.
But I should tell you that Deborah has a real filthy mouth and she makes more threats than a Teanster on Duromine looking for the timberyard. In a word...It's all total wank.
PS:Deborah has an alias...Kali and like me she has six arms. I have them because I am a wealthy Dung Beetle driving around in BMW series5. She has them on the basis of some re-incarnation trip gone wrong. Try and imagine Phyllis Diller on PsuedoMeth....That would be young Deb on a slow day........
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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:21:53 (EST)
From: Cult harassment patrol
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: This person is David Roupell
Message:
You already have all the info on him.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:04:29 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cult harassment patrol
Subject: And he is not the slightest bit frightened by
Message:
the known Cyberstalker Patrick Conlon or his accomplice Deborah Rose.

Which really really PIsses Them Off

Patrick Conlon is so scared and humiliated that he has TWICE removed the reply to the libelous posting by Deborah Rose at the top of the page. This is the most cowardly, desperate tactic that cyberstalkers can and do use. I have saved files of the forum when it was there and when it was removed - this proves the manipulation that these people will employ to save their face and present only their side of the pathetic little story that is their obsession.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:10:47 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You are no longer welcome here, Roupell
Message:
This is an ex-premie forum and therefore presents our side. If you wish to present your side do it on LG or make your own website. That is unless you already have - CAC etc. No one here is interested in your side of the story. Premies can read the propaganda on rawat's websites. Your presence is viewed as an attempt to intimidate new exes from posting.

Your post was removed as it is spam. You have already posted the exact same post harassing Deborah three times on this forum. It is already there for people to read. Posting of the same message repetitiously is regarded as spam. If it is threatening or insulting as yours was, it is regarded as harassment.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:27:14 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Michael, more clarification
Message:
You're saying they are just handling this just like any other corporation would do but it appears to be taking on the form of how Scientology handles it's defectors.

I'm not looking to make inflamatory comments just for the hell of it. My concern is real. Look at CAC and look at Scientology cyberstalking site hurting their defectors. Please elaborate.


---

I would agree that if CAC is an EV site, it is beyond usual corporation practice. But do we have any direct evidence of that as yet?

Many corporations, especially in the property development field, will resort to legal threats or actual proceedings if they feel their name or profit is endangered.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 00:50:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Re: Michael, more clarification
Message:
You said it all here.

Many corporations, especially in the property development field, will resort to legal threats or actual proceedings if they feel their name or profit is endangered.

What the CAC is doing is very illegal and they are deliberately avoiding acutual proceedings or any proceedings. This is what SCREAMS cult and deception.

And not knowing how far they will go retaliating in a dark alley rather than in light of the law is dangerously disconcerting.

Thanks for your candid feedback. I look fwd to more of your posts. Hope we can do something to welcome other premies, especially those who have first-hand evidence to come on board.

See you around,

deborah

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 22:12:40 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Welcome again --- without 'buts'
Message:
Thanks Michael,

Picking up on Jim's comment, I too believe, like you, that we helped 'create' Guru Maharaji. We did not fabricate the idea of SatGuru - he inherited that. He provided the paradigm or vision and all of our hopes and dreams for a better world helped flesh it out. We responded to the mandate that he had been given by bringing our considerable passion and skills to the party. In my view, he squandered that mandate and our energies and converted them to his own enrichment.

Richard the butless wonder

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 23:09:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I agree
Message:
There was a degree of willing cooperation from us. It was our agreement to suspend our disbelief and values that got us hooked and allowed us to 'project' all out wishful thinking onto Maharaji. But it was Maharaji (as is the case in any cult), who said we had to stop 'doubting' to get the juice he was offering.

Our complicity was willingly agreeing to do what he said.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:02:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Nope -- I REALLY disagree
Message:
I'm sorry, but this is an important point, especially as Maharaji has tried to exploit the same concept so blatantly in his scapegoating revisionism. We did not, in any way, CREATE Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji was a pre-packaged product that we bought, used and endorsed but we did not, in any way, embellish that product.

Funny, but there were times that Maharaji accused us of doing that. You know, blaming us for saying that 'Guru Maharaj Ji can speak forty languages'. That's one example. But even that was nothing compared to his own claims, e.g. that he was the father of all creation come at the last minute to save us from the fire of doom and destruction. Without any prompting, he said that stuff. The biggest warning he gave us was to not limit him.

The reason I'm quibbling over this is that I'm sure there are indeed cults or like groups where it could be accurately said that the followers in some way created the leader. Like in Apocalypse Now for instance. Brando's character exploits the naive faith of the tribesman who project onto him all sorts of superhuman, perhaps divine, qualities. One could say likewise about giant celebreties like Madonna whose mystique is often as much a projection of what the fans want them to be as how they themselves present. Then you get the funny ducks like Krishnamurti who spent his whole adult life teasing his 'non-followers': he wasn't a guru, he was just a regular guy who could teach you how you were already your own guru. One could argue, I guess, that it was only his 'non-followers' who insisted on projecting special power on him, he was never interested in that.

I'm sure there are lots better examples but Maharaji isn't one of them. He was the Lord of the Universe and he'd be the first to remind you of that if you started to forget. Buying into this fraud is not at all the same as co-creating it.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 17:03:07 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Absolutely right. No compromise on this.
Message:
heehee it works !
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:42:18 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: key issue st James, your right [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:40:23 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I didn't say that
Message:
I do not think we 'created' Maharaji. I don't think Richard or Michael said that either.

What I said was that we made the decision to cooperate to some extent in Maharaji's deception by giving up our disbelief, deciding to do what Maharaji said we had to do, give up our doubts and just take it in. THAT we did.

I won't give in to the revisionism either, or let Maharaji or his cult members blame the victims for what he did. But I think it's important to note that we weren't FORCED to give into it. And, in fact, the vast majority of people who are exposed to Maharaji DON'T. For some reason, a number of us did.

I think it's important to understand that, because we need to break through the illusion that it was all just our personal choice. It wasn't, but there was the willing element nonetheless.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 15:51:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ok Joe
Message:
Hi Joe,
I read Jims post first and was agreeing with his point, however
I wasnt doubting your understanding at all.
Didnt mean to seem..........
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:50:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Jim, I didn't say that
Message:
Sorry, Joe, but I was initially reacting to Michael's saying:

The last premise John characterised somewhere in his 5,000 word post as 'projection', a good ole-fashioned psychological term I tend to agree with in this case. It was us who poured our trust into Mr Rawat and made him assume in our eyes the powers of blissfulness, awareness, knowingness. whatever. You can also project that onto your lover or, to a lesser extent, onto your dog. Positing that Mr Rawat was divine sunk the hooks in even deeper.

When I took issue with that idea for the reasons I already said, I thought you and Richard were disagreeing with me then. Whatever. I know we all know what it was like. I think it's just a bit of a semantic thing.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:01:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I was disagreeing
Message:
Jim,

I was disagreeing with you but now see it's more complex than a toss-off phrase like 'we created the Guru'. As I posted a bit lower, it's about willing collaboration vs collaboration via deception. As you say, the rest is semantics.

Richard who helps create Jim everytime I acknowledge him

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:38:00 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The bigger question seems to be..
Message:
Apparently the 'co-create' issue is a raw nerve from the many posts about it in this thread. The bigger question seems to be did we give our power to the young Guru, thus fueling the launch of Spaceship SatGuru or did he take our power via deception? And when I say 'power', I include skills, money, passion, time and dreams. I like to think I went along willingly and obviously many disagree.

From the excellent comments posted about this, I'm seeing a bit of my own nostalgic revisionism and ego protection may be at play here. Not wanting to see myself as having been duped but rather happily joining in the road company of 'Lord of the Universe'. The many good thoughts posted are definitely food for thought that I will take under my own advisement.

Richard who is butless no more

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:00:36 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I Agree with Jim...
Message:
It's interesting to read the two views about being in a cult and projection. There are many factors that lead anyone to give over their entire belief systems, way of life, love, and money to a personality cult leader. It makes no sense that I would have done that willingly. The product is and always has been Maharaji, packaged by Maharaji, controlled by Maharaji, supported by DLM/EV, which he conveniently uses as the big excuse for any misunderstandings by premies or PWKs.

The tactics used in the 70s to ''collect devotees'' may look different now, but the result is the same: systematic programming, an intro video, then learning more, and more and so on and on until someone is hooked. That experience, that love, etc... And who isn't searching for love at any time in their lives? That doesn't mean I invented Maharaji. It means Maharaji systematically searches out new devotees, not the opposite.

Yes, I willingly walked my body into the first satsang meeting, I willingly went back. But the juju involved in convincing me that Maharaji was ''Lord of the Universe'' was not my idea. Think back.

The more premies (who were also hooked and programmed) talked about knowledge, the more I felt left out. I was convinced and entranced by satsang and the atmosphere in those satsang rooms that premies had something I really needed to also have. The more I felt left out, the more I started loving Maharaji. Aspirants listen to a lot of crap before being accepted for Knowledge.

That's the other piece: ''being programmed to be accepted'' to receive K. In order to be prepared, Maharaji prescribes an acceptable amount of watching videos (hand picked for aspirants by an EV team or M himself). In the old days we had the aspirant programs. This is sytematic programming with the intention to take control eventually through fear tactics after a person receives K. It's especially noteworthy that most of us never knew M personally when we were premies, but worshipped an act. I'm just not that stupid. It is what Maharaji projected onto us during his act, all the juju thinking, the cultspeak, fear of leaving, his demands for devotion, etc. that proves I was only slightly complicit in signing on. I certainly didn't make him up.

In some ways, I projected my needs upon Maharaji, but that does not constitute inventing him. I'm pretty certain when M sat upon stages in full Krishna regalia (sp?) he didn't ask premies for permission, yet didn't we go into a (Maharaji) personality cult leader induced, mass hysteria just seeing him?

I don't see it as projecting onto Maharaji at all. Rather I see him as projecting his megalomania onto us because of his sick desire to collect people and their money.

He always said he was the Lord. It was a lot stronger than winks and hints, too. It was blantant. We got caught in a cult. No reason to blame ourselves for the behavior of a personality cult leader.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 07:04:04 (EST)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree
Message:
I'm sorry, but this is an important point, especially as Maharaji has tried to exploit the same concept so blatantly in his scapegoating revisionism. We did not, in any way, CREATE Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji was a pre-packaged product that we bought, used and endorsed but we did not, in any way, embellish that product.

Funny, but there were times that Maharaji accused us of doing that. You know, blaming us for saying that 'Guru Maharaj Ji can speak forty languages'. That's one example. But even that was nothing compared to his own claims, e.g. that he was the father of all creation come at the last minute to save us from the fire of doom and destruction. Without any prompting, he said that stuff. The biggest warning he gave us was to not limit him.

The reason I'm quibbling over this is that I'm sure there are indeed cults or like groups where it could be accurately said that the followers in some way created the leader. Like in Apocalypse Now for instance. Brando's character exploits the naive faith of the tribesman who project onto him all sorts of superhuman, perhaps divine, qualities. One could say likewise about giant celebreties like Madonna whose mystique is often as much a projection of what the fans want them to be as how they themselves present. Then you get the funny ducks like Krishnamurti who spent his whole adult life teasing his 'non-followers': he wasn't a guru, he was just a regular guy who could teach you how you were already your own guru. One could argue, I guess, that it was only his 'non-followers' who insisted on projecting special power on him, he was never interested in that.

I'm sure there are lots better examples but Maharaji isn't one of them. He was the Lord of the Universe and he'd be the first to remind you of that if you started to forget. Buying into this fraud is not at all the same as co-creating it.

It occurs to me that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that M was and is, also playing to his audience , much as any performer or politician guages how best to take capitalise on those who adulate them and adapts his or her performance.

Also, Maharaji has learned to enjoy western ways inadvertantly via those whom he initially sought to Lord over...and give a little Indian culture to on the side - Ironically he has become moulded by the company he kept.

I would say that Maharaji is in the unusual position of being able to surround himself with people of his own choice who undoubtedly mould him all the time despite his 'self-made man' image. It is obvious the Maharaji is not immune to the influences of the society in which he lives - as is bourne out by his pursuit of wealth and his 'western' - learned aspirations.

We often came to Maharaji with pre-learned ideas about God, Masters, Jesus etc. These hopes , ideas and expectations were, certainly in my case, projected onto Maharaji - but with little success due to his own hugely overwhelming agenda at the time - which was for us then to surrender at every turn.

One cannot ignore the fact that his most passionate current followers are often people who went through those more demanding past times and who therefore have already undergone considerable rigourous moulding which must still be affecting their current lives even though they think that they are basing their commitments on current 'clarity'. So the moulding actually persists I think.

My experience of becoming a premie was of course, not in the least one of him adapting to my ideas. Quite the contrary...I made a huge effort (for years) to surrender all my ideas and concepts so that effectively, he could replace them with his own paradigm. Whatever that happened to be at the time.

Maharaji's paradigm or philosophy was at first inherited from his father - it is important to remember that it is was a fundamental of his and his father's viewpoint that the Master can change whatever he likes about the way he presents 'Knowledge' - the way you must practice it - and even the techniques themselves. We can all remember the times when he stressed that if the Master were to tell you to stop practicing Knowledge then that would be what you should do.

So the whole point was definitely about relinquishing control to him - handing over the reins of your life- and that came from him - that was not my idea! In fact I was instinctively very uncomfortable about this idea, although I was basically overwhelmed and swayed by his confidence and 'authority' . And also, I was pretty much putty in his hands because of the amount of meditation I was doing (which had the effect of making me very blissfully uncautious).

Maybe now the formerly stringent requirements have been watered down to merely admiring him, sort of living your own life - fitting Knowledge and him in where you can - and letting him get on with his show - giving him the benefit of the doubt. Of course it was emphatically supposed to be other way around (according to him) in the past, when we were told that we should 'fit our lives into Knowledge and NOT the converse'.

This current Maharaji does not really ressemble the much more demanding Maharaji of our pasts except that he presumably continues to command some fearful respect on occasion - no doubt more privately.

I have mentioned here before that I had a girlfriend who left Maharaji's program once in confusion and some disgust when she witnessed him ball out an unfortunate person whose question was apparently not 'respectful' enough (Birmingham 1980's). She said to me afterwards 'I cannot equate Maharaji as being a loving Master, or even any kind of Master worthy of respect, when instead of 'commanding' respect he resorts, as he clearly just did, to 'demanding' it in a most ugly and intimidating way.' Actually, thinking about it, his public wrath, directed at this one bloke, was surely intended more as a reminder to the assembled, humble silent majority that any impertinence would be met by similar immediate and dreadful divine wrath. I remember afterwards there was a kind of shocked hush whilst premies desperately tried to convince themselves that what they had just witnessed and were stunned by, was the rare glimpse of some powerful 'Wrath of God' -like facet of Maharaji.

It's true isn't it that, generally speaking, a worthy teacher is one who, by his manner and skill, effortlessly commands the respect of his pupils - and those who demand it usually do so to their own loss of their pupils trust and because they are lacking in character.

Back to the point about the 'mutual moulding between M and premies' .
I believe that Maharaji himself would instinctively abhor the idea that he had been in anyway successfully 'moulded' by the agendas of others. He has however repeatedly accused premies of trying to mould him and prides himself on victoriously asserting his control - time after time.

In other words he is saying 'Look... those who have tried to mould me have failed, and will continue to fail because I am a step ahead of the game (being the master and all)'

I think Maharaji kind of needs an 'enemy' to blame for things since he appears unwilling to admit blame for things himself. We are seeing how the relatively innocuous ex-premie community is really disproportionately blamed, demonised and has become a great subject of scorn and blame for premies - as of course is Elan Vital itself which also appears to be useful as a scapegoat.

All this CAC stuff is so desperately bizarre and silly. It's as if premies, when challenged, kind of show their true colours, that they are hugely consumed and preoccuppied by their beliefs, to the point of wasting their time doing elaborate websites by the dozen, as if they were really being threatened and as if anyone really cared about the fact that a few disaffected followers accuse Maharaji of being a con etc. I mean their websites are aimed at a public who, I would say, really aren't listening. I suppose the 20,000 or so hits that the Anderson's site shows must be from curious premies 'cos I'm sure no-one else gives a hoot!

This is between premies and exes, so CACS efforts to publically humiliate exes is a waste of time - just as exes attempts to do the same to M would be. The difference is that exes have always been inviting premies to talk with them, urginging M to listen to their complaints. Sooner or later the twain must meet and work it out. There is no use trying to use the Internet to attract public shame because no-one is concerned. Rightly, since there are far more compelling and important issues to consider in the world.

So we did create Maharaji in a way - only it is arguable that this 'we' is very much selected by Maharaji. Because M chooses to surround himself with certain types of premie, and not others, it is they who are permitted to 'influence' him - broadly speaking because he finds that their 'ethics' (or lack of) permit him do what he wants. It is often cited that those around M all drink, smoke and wear certain clothes etc. Definitely Maharaji could be said to set the trend for his followers!

This is all about us, who were once not allowed to think for ourselves, let alone influence M, expressing our dismay that Maharaji has, instead of accepting our sincere and more balanced influence, gone and surrounded himself with a bunch of less 'ethically sensitive' people who seem to all behave gloriously badly together whilst we made all the sacrifices!

Here's a good example: Mike Dettmer's told me that Maharaji once wanted a butler -you know - a real English one. Apparently he had seen the movie 'Arthur' with Dudley Moore and saw himself in the lead role. So, he immediately lached upon stalwart ever-so-Brit, Peter Dawson for the butler role. Indeed Dettmer's account is that the latter was immediately dispatched to a proper school for Butlers - presumably in London - to train for the job.

Dettmer's went on to say that M quickly had misgivings since, at this time, he was in the phase of his life where he wanted to, shall we say, experiment sexually with other women. Apparently he wished to broaden his sexual experience amongst other things, and required others to procure subjects for him. Indeed Dettmer's explained that he himself had been several times required to do this -something that he had grown uncomfortable with and had expressed to M that he did not want to do. M apparently merely decided to get someone else to do his dirty work since Dettmer's declined. An upright Englishman like Peter may also have been a little shocked at some of the requests of his not-so 'Arthurian' master - so Maharaji vacillated and in the end plumped for a more 'liberated' manservant - namely monsieur Patrick Mcracken.

I wish that in the past I had been allowed more say in the Knowledge spreading game, I reckon that I would have not made so bad a team member and could have saved M some head-aches, just as if he had chosen Peter Dawson, maybe Peter could have persuaded him that it was a little unethical in his position to hit on premie women. As it is I see the ex-premie community as increasingly occupying the moral high ground.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:36:44 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree
Message:
Hi Patrick,

Comment on a couple of the points you made:

You said 'We often came to Maharaji with pre-learned ideas about God, Masters, Jesus etc. These hopes , ideas and expectations were, certainly in my case, projected onto Maharaji - but with little success due to his own hugely overwhelming agenda at the time - which was for us then to surrender at every turn.

I'm sure projection went on both ways - we do this in a lot of our relationships. I was wide open for 'The Answer' when I came across M in 73 having, rather ironically, dismissed him as a cult leader when he arrived in 71!

However, what was being clearly projected by M (as a result of what he had been fed) at that time was that he was the last and most powerful in the succession of Masters and about to save the world. Remember the substantial collection of massive paintings of past Masters (including Krishna, Christ and Shri Hans) that were paraded around London and later decorated The Palace of Peace? The came from India, not the West. And let's not forget the Satguru has come film we showed at every opportunity at introductory programs. I've still got that - like a few others - I never handed it in. It makes me laugh now but at the time I treated it with reverence.

Yes, he was a child, and I think believed it all. I wasn't much older myself and I ended up believing everything too. I think he did most of the projection and I provided the willing receptors.

Did we create Maharaji? Or did he get well out of his depth in tackling the West and seek ever more extreem methods of escape? He certainly lost the plot.

You said; 'just as if he had chosen Peter Dawson, maybe Peter could have persuaded him that it was a little unethical in his position to hit on premie women'

From what I know of some of PD's own activites, certainly from mid-eighties onwards I don't think he would have proved to be a very helpful role model!

Warm regards

Nottingham Bunnie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:39:33 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom
Message:
Hi Nottingham Bunnie

You have : satguru has come ?
Can i get a copy from you .
I wouldt love to see it again ,, back in the days before video´s
it was showed once a week in the satsang hall here
It could be so funny (i hope ) , to see it again 25 years later
Offcourse i will pay , whatever you want for it.
Thanks Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:16:55 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: How about Family of Love.
Message:
Hi Ulf,

I can do you a copy of 'Family of Love' for $5000.

How's it going? See anything of my old pal around town?

Anth Christ His Hands Are Glum. (Say it fast Ulf)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:41:06 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: How about Family of Love.
Message:
Only 5000 dollars ,, its a deal . please send it now .

Everything is fine ,, and no, i have not seen your old pal for ages
Thank god...

best Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:49:48 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom
Message:
Hi Ulf,

Yet another business opportunity! Seriously though, see my post below? Are you ever in the UK?

Regards,

Nottingham Bunnie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:02:42 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: Re: Satguru has come ,, freedom,,,freedom
Message:
No, i never come to U.K any more ,, i think the last time i was there
was when i was doing service at reigate residense ,, just outside
London.
And i cannot come to U.K now ,, to much work , and to many kids

But thank you for your kind invatation.

Best wishes Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:23:29 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree
Message:
Hi Notts Bunny
I also remember big billboards in the streets saying something like I have the knowledge that has always been. I can't remember the words properly but it gave the impression that it was the second coming, back to save the world. Then there was grinning premies on every corner and posters in lots of windows. Maybe we did project some stuff but we were fed a hell of a lot of info to convince us that the lord was here. Is there any hope that you could let me have copies of your old films. Drop me an e mail if you like. magiclara@hotmail.com
Bye Magiclara
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:45:04 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hi Magiclara

Yes, those days of innocence and trust............

With regard to Satguru Has Come, I don't know how well it would copy. How about a Latvian video evening with some other choice footage?

Regards

Nottingham Bunnie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:12:03 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: Re: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hello Bunny

Sorry to here about those relatives of yours in Australia. Can I come. I have only met with one ex so far but it is such a relief.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 14:24:21 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hi Peg,

Thank you for your sentiments, we bunnies need our allies. Of course you can come. I think where depends on where we all live; either UK central, or make it a London Party.

Regards,

Bunny

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:02:42 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunnie
Subject: Re: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hi Notts Bunny
Yes please. A Latvian video evening would be marvellous. Having been to a couple of mini Lativians I would love to meet more exes. You can still e mail me if you like. I like getting e mails. Where would we have this video event Nottingam perhaps?
Love magiclara
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:01:20 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hi Magiclara,

If we went to Nottingham we would have to rent a hall (oh, the memories!) I was born in Nottingham, I don't live around there anymore. Where are you?

Love

Nottm Bunny

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 13:56:32 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Re: Latvian video evening?
Message:
Hi
I am in Liverpool. Where are you now then? I think it would be marv tohave a get together.
love magiclara
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 18:18:13 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: I will email you soon nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 16:22:32 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Way to go Magiclara and Bunny [nt]
Message:
I am in Norfolk or London or sometimes Liverpool and can travel at weekends.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:31:41 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: well I agree so there!
Message:
Dear Jim

It is a little scary to disagree with you as you can probably run rings around me with your clever words. You will note that I am giving you a lot of power here ... and probably diminishing myself.

Anyway my point is that I have a tendency to imagine others to be more competent and less vulnerable than myself. And this is reflected here where I very rarely post, imagining that others will say/do/know it better. This tendency, of course, was exemplified in my being a premie for 29 years, and imagining M to have my main concerns at heart and all i had to do was keep in touch and believe..

I have also done this on a smaller scale at other times in my life. I recently had the satisfaction of being told, by one of the 'leaders' of a group I used to be part of , that she had realised that it was a cult. At the time she did not know it but was driven by her ideals (and probably, yes some darker motives). I know without me and the other group members projecting on to her she could never have done it.

Even here, as I suggest above, I find myself responding to the power and intellect of some of the main posters with more reverence than is good for me. and probably for them also.

you say 'I'm sorry, but this is an important point, especially as Maharaji has tried to exploit the same concept so blatantly in his scapegoating revisionism. We did not, in any way, CREATE Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji was a pre-packaged product that we bought, used and endorsed but we did not, in any way, embellish that product.'

I agree that LOTU was definitely on the shelf with a clear description and lots of ridiculous claims. I agree that trade description should have intervened.BUT! we Bought it. I think,as Michael and Joe have said that makes us complicit.. in buying we were supporting the product. That in no way takes away from his disgustingness but I think it is valuable to acknowledge this because;

1)It will help to prevent me from doing it again.

2)It affirms our power...If every premie bins the product then Mr Rawat will be no more than Napoleans neighbour in PAM/John's joke.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:23:37 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry Jim but I think that's bollox
Message:
Yeah sure the package was given to us whole, but then a LOT of us had read Be Here Now, and were already projecting before he turned up.

But more than that, especially for the old timers it was pretty crude packaging in those days, and pretty obvious where he was coming from, and if nothing else we gave him the benefit of the doubt at the start.

Later on, when hooked, couldn't agree more.

But I had mates who were hippy anarchists who knew zilch about him and saw through the whole package pronto.

Just don't buy it, we WANTED to believe, and that was nothing to do with gm, even though he completely fed off it like a piranha fish.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:41:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Deep semantic doo doo
Message:
Ham,

I think we're talking at cross-purposes a bit. There's a difference between projecting onto someone an image that otherwise wouldn't be there, creating or at least assisting to create the end product and simply buying into an image that's already there without your assistance. Jerry Garcia, Eric Clapton (back in the day) -- these were examples of the former. Brian as in Monty Python's Life of. Reverend Moon, on the other hand? No. His followers see him as the Second Coming because that's exactly what he sold them.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:59:44 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No Jim, I'm the second coming. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 08:27:07 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You're talking about me!
Message:
I had mates who were hippy anarchists who knew zilch about him and saw through the whole package pronto.

As a teenager in Bristol, England I came into contact with The Fat Fourteen Year Old LOTU, and could not believe that people I knew were getting sucked into the scene. I found it creepy and incredible.

So, maybe, yeah, on the level of personal psychology there could be something to look at. Get suckered, learn from it! But remember, all sorts of underhand techniques of persuasion were used, sometimes against very vulnerable people. And it's not as if us refuseniks were talked of as having a possibly valid view, is it? Impious cowards was the least of it!

So I'd say Jim is morally right. Just because not everyone falls for a con, doesn't lighten the burden of guilt on the scam artists one tiny bit.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:36:52 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Shit ! I was right Ham .
Message:
I got back here and you'd said it better.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:55:31 (EST)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: who?
Message:
this is so true. Anyone who's been there since early '70s knows exactly where 'the god concept' came from- m himself. Keep reminding me, Jim.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 12:03:58 (EST)
From: Consumer 2389
Email: None
To: sivan
Subject: Who is GMJ?, Krishna Get-up, . . .
Message:
'not a leaf moves', millenium, 'I have come with more powers than ever before' arti, darshan, hmmmmmm, where on earth did we get the idea that GMJ was lord & saviour?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:56:44 (EST)
From: Zedlda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Nope -- I REALLY disagree too
Message:
Jim , thanks for strongly disagreeing and dialatingthis point. It is pivotal and it would/will be a main defense by ev ect.- that we somehow projected our modes of devotion onto him.
I still hear it from premies when faced with critisim . They give a wry smile and say that in the old days the premies turned maraji into many things. 'but that he never said he was god'
This comes from premies who absolutely BOUGHT the god package back then - but they have been brainwashed again to defend maraji like this.
To me it looks like more than a revamp of the scam. It is an insidious re-programming.- which is evident in the mechanical way that the premies recite it. Often they use the same phrases and vocabulary.
Z
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 03:36:58 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Zedlda
Subject: Thanks for the reminder, Zelda [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 01:22:06 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with you Jim, however..
Message:
I think that there comes a point when it doesn't add any more and than premies go into deep twisted levels of denial to continue the deception. Or when, perhaps they come here, and here all the stuff that they can't or aren't ready to deal with, and retaliate to keep Maha in that package that even Maha himself revises. Perhaps, that's when they resort to co-creating or perpetuating the cult.

But note, I said Maha's revisionism and not Maha's correction or Maha's admission that he was never and is still not so the original packaging still stands, at least for some premies. Maha has always made his revisionism a wink wink between him and the new recruits or the public image.

I wonder if those guys are thinking about the phase where they 'knew' but didn't want to act. That would make sense.

But you made excellent examples to clarify the difference in being served a package and co-creating it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:12:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Thanks. Great post -- one 'but'
Message:
The last premise John characterised somewhere in his 5,000 word post as 'projection', a good ole-fashioned psychological term I tend to agree with in this case. It was us who poured our trust into Mr Rawat and made him assume in our eyes the powers of blissfulness, awareness, knowingness. whatever. You can also project that onto your lover or, to a lesser extent, onto your dog. Positing that Mr Rawat was divine sunk the hooks in even deeper.

I have to disagree with the implication that we, in any way, 'created' Maharaji. Nothing could be further from the truth in that we didn't even know what a 'Guru Maharaji Ji' was supposed to be without his telling us. Take a look at the old quotes, some of which are on EPO. Read any one of the old satsangs or interviews if you've got some at hand. Read the Peace Bomb satsang where Maharaji declared that he, the Saviour, had come with more power than ever before to bring peace to the world. No, he sold and we bought. Indeed, when he thought the notion of 'Guru Maharaj Ji' was perhaps losing some of its lustre he stoked our imaginations all over again as he did in Kissimee when he reminded us that he was capable of turning us all blue, etc.

Great post otherwise, though, Mike. Nice to meet you too.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:22:47 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Thanks. Great post -- one 'but'
Message:
Jim,

didn't intend to imply we 'created' Mr Rawat in a vacuum. I agree with you that the sales pitch was already there, but for the sale to go through, the act of 'projection' - the belief in the product - had to occur. What good little consumers we were!

Thanks to you and Pat C for the welcome, but I believe our paths had already crossed back in Forum V.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:30:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Okay, I take back the welcome then
Message:
Oops!

Hi anyway :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:41:49 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Okay, I take back the welcome then
Message:
Yes, I remembered you Mr McD, but was just giving you another welcome in the hopes that this time you would stick around for a while. ;)
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:06:00 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Thank you, Michael McD
Message:
Just a really beautiful post. I am really looking forward to more from you. Welcome.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:34:46 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Thank you Michael
Message:
The situation in Australia seems clear. What about the USA?

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:54:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thank you Michael MacDonald...Stick Around... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:39:41 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: Marianne DB@aol.com
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks from me, too-nt
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:55:33 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Prem, the Pedophile's Pal
Message:
It is becoming increasingly clear Rawat knew about Jagdeo's crimes for years and probably decades without lifting a finger to stop it or to help Jagdeo's victims.

John the PAM's recent corroboration is just one more confirmation of the above fact. It's time for Rawat to give up Jagdeo and begin to clean up this horrendous mess Rawat's 'mission' has created. Instead he is giving time and energy over to this useless and childish CAC attack nonsense.

But then, that would require thinking and acting like a normal, decent person, wouldn't it?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:26:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What did Rawat know?
Message:
Jagdeo was reported to Charanand in Australia.

He was reported to Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne in the US. Judy reported back to one of the victims.

It looks like there was a meeting with Maria Isabella to discuss what to do about another case of abuse.

This is at least four full-time, cult officials who were told.

An anonymous premie honcho (who posted briefly as 'Phyllis') told me Jagdeo was discussed amongst small groups of co-ordinators at conferences in the late 80s. When the complaints became too loud, Jagdeo was restricted to touring the Indian communities in the Far East.

And we all know, that in cultworld, not a flea farts without his permission.

Glen told me once that Jagdeo was an old and dear friend of Rawat, who had known him since Rawat was a little boy.

Anth the Flea Powder.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:13:52 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Absolutely right, Gerry
Message:
Also, I would like to say that I agree with John B that the EPO website needs to be changed to return the 'Harboring a Paedophile' title, now that there is testimony that the heading is correct.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:16:48 (EST)
From: **** again
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Absolutely right?
Message:
???
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:11:19 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: **** again
Subject: Re: Hey! Your Absolutely stupid!
Message:
Dahhhh?
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