Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 05, 2001 To: Nov 10, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Update -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EST)
__ FYI -:- CAC site is gone -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:06:53 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:05:27 (EST)
__ __ __ FYI -:- Re: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:12:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, I'm a little keyed up -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:18:02 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Jim and Dettmers EPO! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:43:53 (EST)
__ FYI -:- Links are bogus -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:40:27 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Scott Ritter is a premie???!!! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Scott, read your email...;) [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:34:03 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Jesus, Scott, you are joking, I hope -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:26:21 (EST)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Well, you never know -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:00:53 (EST)
__ __ __ salsa -:- is this him? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Nah, I think that's Johnny Winter -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:47:23 (EST)

**** -:- cult -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:39:05 (EST)
__ ******** -:- cunt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:59:23 (EST)
__ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Language -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EST)
__ Mummiji -:- You must be dyslexic, dear ... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:05:43 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Re: cult -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Who, me? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:59:34 (EST)
__ __ **** 123 -:- nt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:14:08 (EST)

Joe -:- I am so disappointed in Mitch Ditkoff -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:48:08 (EST)
__ bill -:- great all around post Joe [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:57:30 (EST)
__ Joy -:- Brilliant, Joe--Everybody Read the Above -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I did read it and it is brilliant but.. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:59:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I agree -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:55:12 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Here's my original article (reprint) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:53:36 (EST)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Joe, you need to put ... -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Chuck, how do I do that? (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 12:26:33 (EST)
__ ulf -:- happy Birthday -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:45 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Happy Birthday, Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EST)
__ Selene -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:19:15 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Happy :) Happy :) [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:08:36 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:14:14 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:15:06 (EST)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:48:16 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- HEY HOTBOARDS! Hey Anth! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- SEE! this message appeared here and .... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- It's EASY... -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 15:39:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Chuck, I sent you an email...(nt) -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 17:09:57 (EST)

FYI -:- BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:47:56 (EST)
__ **** -:- Re: BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:02:51 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:34:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Good one Barry }) [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 19:13:46 (EST)
__ cq -:- the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:11:36 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- GMT, Vicki - long gone now. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:26:07 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Alas, time ran out. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Alas, time ran out. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:58:10 (EST)

EV -:- Junk Mail -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:40:20 (EST)

PAMs post on LG -:- has been deleted -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:51:09 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- There is not much going on over there -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:52:27 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: There is not much going on over there -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:00:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Like someone over there said recently -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:38:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- A scout troop full of.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:00:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Lord Baden Powell -:- Re: A scout troop full of.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:15:29 (EST)
__ salsa -:- The site is GONE -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:28:58 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Which site? [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:32:22 (EST)
__ __ __ salsa -:- Re: Which site? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- LG is there now [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:32:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- not to me -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Welcome to the CLUB -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Welcome to the CLUB -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:16 (EST)

Andrea Eriksonn -:- 'Please Consider This, Not THAT' ... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:22:48 (EST)
__ Fred Newman -:- Will you tell the Maharaja -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:32:55 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- ...Not even the other THING -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EST)

Sister Helen Wheels -:- WHO DID THAT??!! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 18:45:27 (EST)
__ **** -:- SHW -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:12:24 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: SHW -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EST)
__ Brother Hal N. Back -:- Yes, where are the pix? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:02:58 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Visit House of Drek -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 01:04:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Brother Hal N. Back -:- Been there Marianne -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:23:50 (EST)
__ Taffy -:- Excuse me, but would you... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:39:58 (EST)
__ __ Sister Mary Mae Hem -:- No, Sr. Helen has only one 'L' -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:53:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Sister Rossetta -:- Sister, don't even... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:10:11 (EST)

Meher Baba -:- Yet another one... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:07:39 (EST)
__ don -:- Re: Yet another one... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:46:36 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Quote from Meher baba -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:12:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oy veh, Jethro. I preferred your other quote -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:26:49 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Spiritualism made easy 129 pages -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:47:34 (EST)
__ Timmi -:- Re: Yet another one... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:27:25 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Meher Baba inHollywood -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:30:05 (EST)
__ bill -:- intoxicated from direct awareness of god? [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:21:27 (EST)

Nigel -:- Prem trashes ALL premie mail! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 14:49:57 (EST)
__ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Really, what ARE you all going on about????? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:17:05 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Except for the ones.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:14:22 (EST)
__ Scott T. -:- I got an answer too, in 1981. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:27:35 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Actually I got an answer back once -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:25:45 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Bogus reply -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:56:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I wrote M every day.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:59:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Really?? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:39:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Really? Yup, Every Day -:- Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:31:43 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji never answered my letters -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:39:45 (EST)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Prem trashes ALL premie mail! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EST)
__ bill -:- There goes my powder idea [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:22:55 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Careful, Bill.... [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:11:04 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- I always suspected that.... -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:07:39 (EST)

Vicki -:- THE watch collection -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:48:20 (EST)
__ david m -:- Re: THE watch collection -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:50:26 (EST)

Vicki -:- -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:47:30 (EST)

Joe -:- Background on CAC -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:28:22 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Re: Background on CAC -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:34:54 (EST)
__ __ Mr. Observation -:- Re: Background on CAC -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:20:16 (EST)

Joe -:- CAC Update -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:12:07 (EST)
__ Joe -:- COPY those sites!!! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:15:19 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Did someone COPY those sites!!! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:06:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Apostates and New Religions? those sites!!! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:43:18 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I have the home pages and exes profiles [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:09:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Yea!!! Spot on [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:10:20 (EST)

Pam -:- The Second Coming -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:36:35 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:44:55 (EST)
__ Jim S. -:- Thank you John, and... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:20:48 (EST)
__ __ John -:- Thankyou for your thankyou -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:20:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- And thanks again, John -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:14:54 (EST)
__ __ Gail -:- Thanks for a great post. Jim: -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:08:12 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Good post Jim S. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:07:38 (EST)
__ RichMandrake -:- John, May I offer My Heartfelt Gratitude.. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:52:01 (EST)
__ david m -:- Thank You incredable nt [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:10:05 (EST)
__ david m -:- Thank You incredable nt -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:09:53 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Thanks John. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:36:37 (EST)
__ Carl -:- You ask the best question: -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 01:42:48 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: The Second Coming -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:23:35 (EST)
__ Mel -:- Thanks John.. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:14:14 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, Mel, that's definitely called 'lying' -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:29:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Stand Down Counsellor -:- Mel doesn't answer to you -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:37:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who are you to say? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:57:48 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Want to do something helpful, Mel? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:06:22 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Hi Mel -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:07:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- How can you say that? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:43:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Confusious Say -:- Wise Man Sometimes F**Ks with -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:35:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, Jim! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:11:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Right on Jimbo -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:20:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cult Spotter -:- Excuse me, but weren't you LEAVING... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:04:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cult member -:- Yea but YOU LEAVE and then return. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Excuse me, but weren't you LEAVING... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:55:46 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Come on Mel, we're all embarassed -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 03:13:40 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks, excellent ... but why just 4? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:11:35 (EST)
__ Brian -:- Congratulations, John -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:00:23 (EST)
__ michael donner -:- Re: The Second Coming -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:08:08 (EST)
__ __ gErRy -:- damn donner you said IT !!!! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:44:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- On the subject of paypal... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:11:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Re: On the subject of paypal... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:40:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No, my vote goes to... -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:45:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- LOLOL gErRy! NT -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:37:51 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Yuck ! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:51:22 (EST)
__ Marie of Romania -:- The Second Coming + the First Going -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:29:31 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Greetings, Marie -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:24:59 (EST)


Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Update
Message:
Okay, so from what I can tell, there are two Maharaji cult attack sites still up. One is at www.powow.com/right2hate

That site lists ex-premie.org with a bunch of 'hate' sites, including neo-nazi, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Christian, and Anti-Gay sites. In the section of the 'anti-Maharaji' sites, six ex-premies are listed. The site is pretty vicious, but also pretty stupid.

I wonder if the site is part of Scott Ritter's statement that Maharaji wanted them to engage in a 'radical new approach' for dealing with us ex-premies at EPO. In any event, the site is a travesty.

The site is listed on a free homepage site. The place to complain about this hate site and get it taken down is: abuse@freehomepages.com

I strongly suggest that the ex-premies listed on that site email the server immediately and complain. I believe this is one of the same servers that had one of the CAC reproductions, and when I complained, they immediately took it down.

The other website is kind of hysterical, and there are a bunch of us listed there, but I for one would just as soon see it stay there.

That site is located at: http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/

The reason I don't mind the site is because it gives links to EPO and it's so ludicrous. Plus, it appears to be defending Elan Vital. What a joke.

One thing I do object to is being called a 'paralegal' I resent that (no offense to any paralegals out there), but I am NOT a paralegal, a lawyer, or anything related, thank you very much. At least get your slimy attacks right, you cult-idiots.

Anyhow, I might be in the minority here. If anyone else wants to get that hysterical site taken down, you can email the server and complain at their website at www.netomia.com.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:06:53 (EST)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: CAC site is gone
Message:
Poor babies.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:05:27 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FYI
Subject: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain
Message:
http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/

www.powow.com/right2hate

Check it out, poor baby.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:12:00 (EST)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain
Message:
Sorry, you misunderstood me. Poor babies referred to the perpetrators of the CAC site. I was trying to make the point that one down, two more to go. The jerks behind these attacks should be dealth with.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:18:02 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FYI
Subject: Sorry, I'm a little keyed up
Message:
Especially to hear what has now happened to Marrianne at the hands of those cowardly jerks.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:43:53 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Jim and Dettmers EPO!
Message:
According to the hate sites site, www.powow.com/right2hate, EPO is Jim Heller's and Mike Dettmers' site. I think this small error is related to Bjorn's statement that he has only read a few pages on EPO. Premies are unable to actually read through EPO, so whatever wrong ideas about EPO thay have stay stuck in their heads.

Regarding http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ I am also happy for this one to remain. As I said when it was first announced, it could be an ex-premie site. My only complaint is that I've never been a beer exporter, but it's not that bad a profession to be tarred with:-)

John

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:40:27 (EST)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Links are bogus
Message:
The links on Halt Hate Online (they should take their own advice) are bogus, and when you click on them, they lead to some page that you have to login to, most likely the entrance to Eagle's Nest in Austria.

I'd like to see them all go.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Scott Ritter is a premie???!!!
Message:
On other occasions, I actually downplayed my information to protect my identity. For example Scott Ritter himself, and not an intermediary, approached me, early this year, about his brief to employ 'radical new approaches' to countering EPO.

I'm sorry I never made this connection, but we *are* talking about the same Scott Ritter who was in charge of the weapons inspection program in Iraq, was removed from that post, and is now conducting speaking appearances urging not only that we lift sanctions but that we not regard Saddam Hussein as a threat to US security, and that we just forget about his development of gas, biological and nuclear weapons. *THIS* Scott Ritter???

Jesus Christ!!!

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:34:03 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, read your email...;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:26:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Jesus, Scott, you are joking, I hope
Message:
They are NOT the same person. You have got to be kidding. The inspections Ritter is a former Marine, and is probably 10 years younger than Scott Ritter the premie, who has apparently risen to the lofty heights of the Maharaji Cult, such that Maharaji apparently gave him marching orders to 'do something radical' about the nuisance of EPO.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:00:53 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Well, you never know
Message:
Apparently M's former head of security is a three-star stationed at the Pentagon, so being a former Marine and a premie aren't mutually exclusive. It's not that common a name. I've also not been following the CAC stuff very carefully, so have no idea who (or what) Scott Ritter is. Just read Cynthia's post that she knows him though, so it's obviously not *that* Scott Ritter. Odd name coincidence though, especially since I saw him on the History Channel the other night, and his position was at least plausible. However his contention that Saddam "has more to worry about than his weapons program" just doesn't reassure me somehow. I mean, he has a body double so maybe he's hired some temporary help to take care of the excess workload?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: is this him?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:47:23 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Nah, I think that's Johnny Winter
Message:
in a snow storm.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:39:05 (EST)
From: ****
Email: None
To: All
Subject: cult
Message:
You are the cult.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:59:23 (EST)
From: ********
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: cunt
Message:
you are a cunt.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: ********
Subject: Language
Message:
I have a cunt and it's lovely.

Are you calling this poster lovely, or as I suspect, do you have the wrong description?

Nottingham Bunnie (and fan of Lennie Bruce)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:05:43 (EST)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: You must be dyslexic, dear ...
Message:
The cult are you! :)

Lovijis and hugsijis, you 4 star cult person! ())

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: Re: cult
Message:
You are the lost fool!
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:59:34 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: Who, me? (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:14:08 (EST)
From: **** 123
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: nt
Message:
You are nice people.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:48:08 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: I am so disappointed in Mitch Ditkoff
Message:
Mitch Ditkoff is a Real Disappointment

In my earlier article about why Maharaji is the leader of a cult, I mentioned Mitch Ditkoff’s nonsensical article on his “Please Consider This” website (Is Maharaji the Leader of a Cult? dated August 15, 2001). The article meanders all over the place, is amazingly self-contradictory, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Mitch thinks all those “innocent bystanders,” whom he says he is attempting to address, are idiots. God knows he has no qualms about insulting their intelligence.

Mitch says that the “cult” issue is the “biggest complaint” of that “small percentage” of Maharaji’s former followers who “dislike him intensely.” Where Mitch gets those characterizations and statistics, except perhaps from a certain portion of his anatomy, he doesn’t say.

First, Mitch gives us the “its-all-relative” speech we have heard so many times from Maharaji apologists. That’s the EST-like theory that you can’t really judge what “cult” means because it’s all just opinion and perspective. (Mitch revives this theory throughout his article.) Then, in literally the next sentence, Mitch does a complete about-face and compares his cult to an “objective definition” which he claims to have discovered while researching cult experts.

From Mitch’s extensive “research” he quotes a definition of “cult” by Dr. Michael Langone, currently Executive Director of the American Family Foundation (AFF), and author of a number of books on cults. It will be no surprise to you that Mitch determines the Maharaji cult doesn’t meet the definition. What Mitch seems to have missed in his “research” however, is that Dr. Langone’s organization lists Elan Vital/Maharaji as a group many claim to be a cult, and Dr. Langone himself, in his book Recovery from Cults, (W.W. Norton, 1995), clearly concludes that what Maharaji is leading is most definitely a “cult” (page 41). Funny how Mitch missed those things in his “research.”

Note to all “innocent bystanders”: Whose conclusion are you likely to accept? The expert on cults who actually wrote the definition Mitch is trying to twist to his own purposes, or Mitch Ditkoff, an admitted member of the cult he is trying desperately to prove isn’t one for entirely propaganda and damage control purposes? Since most people, bystanders or not, were not born yesterday, the answer should be obvious.

Another follower of Maharaji writing on another cult website joins Mitch’s slide into this kind of disingenuous banter. Josie Winter quoted Marc Galanter’s definition on the “It Ain’t So” website, from Galanter’s book, Cults: Faith and Coercion. Although Ms. Winter, like Mitch, engages in a lengthy argument about how the Maharaji cult doesn’t meet the definition, she apparently was too busy to notice that Galanter, in that very book, also determined that the Maharaji cult is, indeed, a cult.

From that rather inauspicious start, it’s downhill from there for Mitch, I am afraid. Next, he says that maybe Maharaji used to be the leader of a cult, but not anymore. Sure, in those bad old days it was weird due to the followers’ “spiritual immaturity,” but that was the fault of the followers not Maharaji (of course), and moreover, that “quirky” behavior has “gone the way of bell bottoms.”

Mitch really ought to get out more, because bell bottoms (and hip-hugger jeans) are very much back in fashion these days (why, I have no idea). He also appears to have failed to make it to the last Amaroo event with Maharaji at which ARTI was sung and Maharaji’s followers lined up for the very un-cult-like ritual of kissing Maharaji's feet. That was in April of this year, so maybe Mitch is implying that Maharaji stopped being the leader of a cult around Memorial Day, but I’m not sure.

Regarding ARTI, just for the benefit of those “innocent bystanders,” here are just some of the words:

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer, bow their heads and pray to You [Maharaji]…
Give yourself to Satguru Sacrifice yourself to Satguru [Maharaji]…
Many past forms you have taken…
Now we have come in your control
Again You have come to save the soul…
To lead Your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hansa the pure soul

Mitch does admit that there has been a lot of excessive devotion expressed to Maharaji, including, “scrubbing the grout between bathroom tiles with a toothbrush for a house that Maharaji was going to stay in for a single night.” But Mitch again retreats into cult-relativism because, he says, what does excessive mean anyway?

Why, according to Mitch, this kind of mass-worship and bizarre hygiene requirements, are really no different than his son’s fascination with Game Boy, and his wife’s views of Mitch spending three hours watching a baseball game. Plus Henry Miller’s prose is also excessive, so who can really say what the word means? Right, Mitch. It’s all the same. Game Boy, baseball, and feet-kissing ceremonies are just equivalent levels of excessive dedication. See what I told you? Mitch surely thinks those poor “innocent bystanders” are beyond stupid.

Mitch continues on in this fashion for the rest of the article. Sure, he says, there is “group pressure” in the Maharaji cult, but (I am not kidding you here) it’s really no different than the group pressure he felt at “summer camp “and in “Little League.”

Later, Mitch says, yes, maybe premies did isolate from their families, like in the ashrams, but that was just normal “individuation” and quite “predictable.” Sure, Mitch, everybody follows a “master” who says that he is your family and not your biological one. Quite normal, really. But maybe it’s true that without the ashram, Mitch would still be living with his mother. I suppose it was part of Maharaji’s divine plan to save Mitch from that, but it’s all relative and what does that mean anyway?

Mitch just dismisses the allegations of “mind control” in the cult by saying that he doesn’t recall Maharaji ever attempting to “manipulate, control or unethically persuade” him. I previously discussed eight different examples of the specific mind control techniques used in the Maharaji cult, all of which have been extensively researched by experts like Mitch’s friend Dr. Langone, and I won’t go into them here, but let me mention another one.

Surely Mitch recalls the tirades of Maharaji and his minions about how our “mind” shouldn’t be listened to, that it is on a mission to make us miserable and kick us off the path of knowledge and devotion. Specifically, Maharaji said that your mind was a “fly” that must be “smashed,” a “snake that must be killed,” and that leaving the practice of knowledge was to jump from a ship into shark-infested waters. Why anyone would think those kinds of statements to people who were also engaging in excessive dedication would be seen as attempts at manipulation and persuasion appears to be beyond Mitch.

But I liked the following quote from Mitch the best, which is a kind of summation of what Maharaji is all about:

Maharaji’s goal, from what I can tell, has always been to make the experience of knowledge available to as many people on the planet as possible. Plain and simple. That is his reason for being. He cares about people’s lives flourishing, not being diminished.

I wonder if Mitch can point to any evidence that Maharaji ever cared about the fate of other human beings. Philanthropy appears to be something Maharaji lacks in its entirety.

As for spreading knowledge to the “people on the planet,” that either isn’t Maharaji’s priority, or he has done a lousy job at carrying it out, at least so far. The problem is that spreading knowledge conflicts with Maharaji being able to live in the style to which he has become accustomed in the hills of Malibu. What with $7 million yachts, $40 million aircraft and all those Rolls and Ferraris, there doesn’t seem to have been much left over to “make the experience knowledge available” like he said he planned.

The result is that Maharaji has thousands fewer followers today than he did 20 years ago and hardly anyone has even heard of him. He does not even advertise his existence, or that of knowledge. During that same period, he has become filthy rich. I wonder, Mitch. What do you think an “innocent bystander” would think Maharaji’s priority is? Is it to “make the experience of knowledge available to as many people on the planet as possible,” or is it to get, and stay, rich?’

I am so disappointed in Mitch. I had great hopes for what he might have to say because he is part of a company called “Idea Champions” that claims to promote “thinking outside the box.” After reading his article, now I’m hoping he will just start thinking.

Joe Whalen
November 5, 2001

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:57:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great all around post Joe [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brilliant, Joe--Everybody Read the Above
Message:
What a brilliant post, Joe. I laughed out loud so many times! You are so excellent at pointing out the obvious and poking the pin in the balloon of bullshit. I remember Mitch Ditkoff from the old days in Denver--sorry to hear he's still an apologist for the Maharaji cult.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:59:53 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I did read it and it is brilliant but..
Message:
......Joe's made so many good posts in the past few days I haven't remembered to thank him for all of them. Thanks Joe. Hope you are well and happy, Joy.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:55:12 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I agree
Message:
Joe is making a huge difference with his many intelligent, insightful, and dead on honest posts of late. Not to mention the acerbic wit that goes with it as well, I read every one of his contributions

Thank Joe

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:53:36 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Here's my original article (reprint)
Message:
Yes, Maharaji Really is the Leader of a Cult

It’s pretty clear that people who are still devoted to Maharaji can get really upset when you say that Maharaji is leading a cult. They may even go to a lot of trouble to try to prove otherwise, as we have seen in recent months. First, Elan Vital addressed it in a big section of its website, which consists of a transparent self-serving attempt at throwing up and then destroying straw men of its own creation.

More recently, Erika Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff have written articles on this subject, and currently it’s the topic of the week on their website. In his article, Mitch continues in the same vein as Elan Vital by attempting to explain why followers of Maharaji don’t meet certain aspects of a cult “definition.” [I’d like to request that if anyone can make any sense out of Mitch’s meanderings on this subject to please let me know.] Erika Andersen tries another angle. She presents a long expose about how “normal” her life is. Since neither mass marriages nor ritualistic abuse appears in her list of daily activities, Erika reassures us that she couldn’t possibly be in a cult.

Why is this such a big deal to them? Probably because cults have a pretty bad reputation in this society, what with Jonestown, the Moonies, Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, and the rest. It also looks bad for propagation purposes, and it’s embarrassing. When I was a follower of Maharaji, I would never, even for a minute, have thought I was in a cult. I would have considered it an insult if someone said I was.

Sure, I thought the Moonies were a cult, and the Hare Krishnas were a cult, but I and the other people following Maharaji, couldn’t possibly be a cult, could we? Of course not, I reasoned, because what Maharaji was offering was real, and I was just too smart ever to be in cult. Everything I did appeared to be of my free choice, and weren’t cults so weird that it would be obvious if you were in one?

Unfortunately, no. One of the characteristics of being in a cult is that you don’t think you are because a cult is all about protecting yourself from those kinds of thoughts. Many people, after they leave cults, discover that’s exactly what they were in, and they have spawned all kinds of “ex-cult” groups and websites like Ex-Premie.Org, and large organizations like CAN and AFF, whose members proclaim that they were once members of cults. [For record, both CAN and AFF have listed Elan Vital/Maharaji as a “cult.”]

The simple (and obvious) reason for this division is that once you discover you are in a cult, you are probably either already out of it, or on your way out. Hence, the divide between the current and former followers of Maharaji on the “cult” issue is quite wide and there is little common ground on the subject.

I have thought a lot about groups and cults, and I’ve read and studied a lot to try to understand better how I ever became a follower of Maharaji in the first place, and why I remained one for as long as I did. The purpose of this article is to explain, based on my own research and my own experience, why I say that Maharaji is, and always has been, the leader of a cult, and to try to boil it all down to the most basic level I can. I have tried to set aside the hyperbole.

Maharaji’s Followers Are Not Brainwashed

Let’s just get this out of the way quickly. “Brainwashing” implies unwilling indoctrination of alien principles and beliefs and Manchurian Candidate images of overt control techniques. Maharaji does not brainwash people and followers of Maharaji are not brainwashed.

So, If We Weren’t Brainwashed, Why Did We Join?

Like with any other cult, people become premies/PWKS because they see something they think they want. This might be friends, community, absolutes to live by, a way to “know one’s self,” a way to “experience the energy that is God,” a simple formula for life, happiness, etc. When I was first introduced to Maharaji and his followers, I saw premies as a loving group of people who seemed to be happy, and I wanted to be in their “family,” to share what I thought they had, and I thought I lacked. I wanted the promised experience of the peace inside of me. I wanted to be a part of bringing peace to the world, which Maharaji said he was doing.

I was told by premies and Maharaji that to get those things I wanted, the key was to “receive knowledge.” So, very early on, like literally within hours of my first “satsang,” I decided I wanted knowledge. At the same time, I also noticed lots of really weird, or at least illogical, stuff that seemed to go along with it, like worshipping this kid, feeling “devotion” (now “gratitude”) to this strange person, pranaming, feet-kissing, and the like. This set off “red flags” in my analytical thinking, and briefly caused me to question all I was being told. So, I now had an internal dilemma. How could I deal with the major problem for me, which was that this “Maharaji” and dedication to him, came along with the premies and the “knowledge” that I wanted so badly?

Followers of Maharaji Are Not Coerced; They Are Cooperators in Their Own Programming

Many people resolve this dilemma by dropping out of the process. They split. They are part of the vast majority of people who hear about Maharaji, maybe even come to some introductory event, and never follow through. They aren’t hooked. It doesn’t take. But another way to resolve it is for the individual to follow the directives of the cult and suspend normal critical judgment in this area, in order to obtain the “carrot” representing the fulfillment desired, in this case to get “knowledge.” In this way, the individual engages in cooperation with what the cult is telling them. Unfortunately for me, that’s what I did.

Cult researchers will tell you that because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the individual views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of “mind control” than other forms, and harder to undo, because of the illusion that it was all just a personal choice. Indeed, I wanted to believe it. It fulfilled a “need,” and it was “my decision.” In fact, the strongest, most enduring, and most insidious, programming in the Maharaji cult goes on before the individual even receives knowledge, at this very juncture.

I can still remember the feelings and the process from my own experience. I wanted to receive knowledge. So, I did what they said I had to do; I listened to premies and Maharaji talk about it and sing songs about it. This was before video, but during the days of satsang every single night. I also watched movies about it, read articles about it, and I traveled across the country and saw Maharaji speak twice before I received knowledge. In this process “aspirants” like me, are told by Maharaji that one has to be “ready” to receive knowledge and yet there is no test or measure of what “ready” means, just that one has to have “that understanding” to “have no more doubts,” to “get rid of all pre-conceived ideas about Maharaji and knowledge,” and “be open.”

So, left with no clear guidelines and completely ambiguous instructions, most people are going to take this the way I did, that it means stripping away value judgments and restraining all doubts or critical analysis of anything that was happening in connection with Maharaji or knowledge. To fail to do that was to not be “open” or it was evidence that the impediments of doubt were still there, and therefore you wouldn’t get what you wanted, to receive knowledge.

So, I pushed all the sincerity buttons I had; I tried not to think critically or negatively about Maharaji. I tried to be open by not letting “my mind” criticize or analyze any of this process. What was the point, anyway? I was told that I wouldn’t really be able to judge any of it until I received knowledge and that knowledge was something that couldn’t be explained in words.

At some critical point in this period, I crossed over into the world of “cult.” I did this by deciding that I wanted knowledge so much that I would ignore much of my critical/analytical faculties, and even my own “gut feelings.” This was the beginning of my practicing of cult mind control which consists mainly of learning to shut down the critical part of my thinking when it came to Maharaji and knowledge. Amazingly, that process, that repressive mechanism, continued for almost 10 years thereafter, getting ever more efficient as I practiced it. So efficient in fact, that for many years I had no conscious awareness that I was even doing it.

Then began the exercises in traumatic humiliation known as “knowledge selections.” Twice I sat in the “selection” process and wasn’t selected by the Instructor. I watched, increasingly heartbroken and desperate, as those who were selected seemed ecstatic and privileged. I wanted to be like them. And I wanted to be happy like the premies, who had by this time become my friends and they were rooting for me to receive knowledge. Having been rejected, I re-doubled my efforts to “be ready” and “be open.” Any critical thought was immediately discarded. I even started singing the praises of Maharaji and knowledge. I had become not only “open,” I had become dedicated.

Finally, after cutting my university classes, and taking a bus 350 miles, I was in yet another “selection” for knowledge. By this point my critical thinking became just irrelevant background noise. I was even “praying” to Maharaji, who was by now a kind of an imaginary friend to me, to please give me knowledge and let me be his devotee. By the time I was selected to receive knowledge, I couldn’t even imagine doubting anything about Maharaji or knowledge, or even looking at any of it objectively in any way approaching how I looked at anything else. But if you would have asked, I would have told you that all of this was happening by my free will, by my free choice.

I was so far gone that by this point I was even willing to say that I devoted my life to Maharaji (then Guru Maharaj Ji), when the Instructor asked that I do so. Amazing. Here I was, a guy at the top of my university class, a guy who was a confirmed anti-authoritarian, a semi-Marxist, a guy who had left the Catholic Church because it was too paternalistic, devoting my life to a human being, who claimed to be another Jesus Christ, somebody I had never met and knew virtually nothing about. Yes, it could even happen to me, and it did. And if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody.

So, I received knowledge, and let’s just say that the experience did not blow my socks off. It was actually somewhat disappointing. But by that time, I no longer had much capacity to evaluate anything about Maharaji. But it felt okay because now I belonged, and the premies held a “birthday party” for us, and it was all kind of nice, and I was a new baby. Give it time, I thought. Don’t doubt, don’t judge, just be open and give it a chance, Maharaji and the premies told me. I wasn't even conscious of the fact that I had given that up my critical thinking. Like I said, it was almost 10 years before that changed.

Okay, so what was I now a part of? I was now part of the Maharaji cult. It is and was a cult, that fits the definition Mitch Ditkoff uses in his article:

1. A group claiming to have “the answer” as the “only way” to peace and happiness;
2. A leader to whom “excessive dedication” occurs; and
3. The use of “mind control techniques.”

I’m sure even Mitch agrees that Maharaji claimed that he had the one experience of “peace and happiness” and that he was the only person on the planet offering it. I’m sure he would also agree that “excessive devotion” has been expressed to Maharaji, including just a few months ago, when his followers, once again, lined up to kiss his feet. But what about the “mind control?” How did that manifest after I received knowledge and was a full-fledged follower of Maharaji?

“Mind Control” (Better Known as: Discouragement of Doubt) in the Maharaji Cult

Although “mind control” is a heavy term, there is nothing magical or strange about how it manifests in cults. It's pretty basic stuff. But what do I really mean by it when it comes to the Maharaji cult? Well, in addition to the process I already described, the following eight examples are characteristics of the cult that caused me and others to limit our thoughts – to engage in “mind control.” These are all “Mind Control Techniques” described in general terms in the literature and research on cults. They should be easily recognizable to anyone who has been a follower of Maharaji:

1. The Commandment Against Doubting. Cults almost always forbid or discourage their members from doubting anything about the Cult, and especially the Cult Leader. Maharaji was especially explicit about this. For many years, Maharaji had a “Commandment” that his followers were supposed to follow, which was to “Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind.” I know he doesn’t have “commandments” anymore, but I think the principle is still there, and I read a transcript of Maharaji speaking in Argentina in which he again lambasted “doubts” as a detriment to your “experience.” I know that some PWKs say that the commandment actually meant something else, but I find the explanations absurd. It says what it says. Moreover, in my experience, doubts in the Maharaji cult were always discouraged, with or without the existence of Maharaji’s “commandment.”

So, after you receive knowledge, after the repression of your thoughts that it took to get to that point, Maharaji gives you a commandment that says you aren’t supposed to doubt and that doubting interferes with the “experience.” Obviously, this makes it nearly impossible to look at knowledge or Maharaji objectively.

2. No Critical Question about the Leader or His Teaching is Legitimate. One of the true tests of whether someone is in a cult is whether he or she can criticize the Cult Leader. It’s nearly impossible, indeed is impossible, to get a one of Maharaji’s followers to do it. Of course, they will say there is nothing to criticize, because cult thinking will not allow those critiques, those “doubts” to enter, and if they do, they are immediately repressed. It causes a cult member great discomfort to think of questioning or criticizing the Cult Leader and if they have such thoughts, they would NEVER say it publicly. This is because the Maharaji cult is really a personality cult, although it retains some “Eastern spiritual cult” overtones. Obviously, if you attack the “personality” what do you have left? Some PWKs can bring themselves to criticize Elan Vital, and various leaders of that and other related organizations. I did the same thing towards the end of my involvement. But mostly, I just blamed myself for even having any doubts in the first place.

Once you are out of the cult, believe me, you will have no problem criticizing Maharaji. All the critical things you have thought about him, about his “efforts” as master, or about knowledge, or about your experiences as one of his followers, all of which have been repressed, will come out like a raging river, and it feels wonderful.

3. Criticism of the Cult and Especially the Cult Leader, in any Form, is Seen as Lack of “Understanding,' or 'Confusion.' In my experience, if you express criticism of Maharaji, or any of his decisions, or Knowledge, or anything related, you get the cold shoulder by his followers and his organization and will be considered “confused” or not “synchronized.” It’s group pressure, really. And if you do so, you can usually forget about moving up in the organization, getting close to the Lotus Feet, getting a good seat at a program, being invited to “the residence,” or getting a good “participation opportunity.”

If you do it too much, you might even be categorized as a “bongo.” Try sitting in your next “participation meeting” and say some negative stuff about Maharaji or what he’s doing. See how open and tolerant your fellow followers are to such statements. It’s unlikely they will encourage you to air your opinions and vigorously discuss your “negative” views. [By the way, being labeled “negative” is about the worst thing that can happen to you in the Maharaji cult and this is yet another form of mind control.]

4. Threats of Dire Calamity if They Abandon Knowledge/Maharaji. I could go into the “tons of rotten vegetables” and other things Maharaji said as threats of what would happen if people abandoned the cult, but that isn’t really necessary. Basically, this is internalized in most PWKs, such that they cannot imagine, and fear, what their lives would be like if they left Maharaji. Since Maharaji has been portrayed as being exclusive in his “perfect master” position, PWKs fear there is no place else to go. This is basically phobia indoctrination. It’s the irrational fear of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. Basically, the PWKs (and this was also true for me), cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being a follower of Maharaji, and Maharaji reinforces this in just about everything he says.

Incredibly, as a premie, I described this psychological dependence on Maharaji or at least my image of Maharaji and the fear I had of rejection by him, as my “love for Maharaji,” despite the fact that I never even met the guy. Obviously, this is about as far from “love” as you can get. Also, somehow, if I said I “loved” Maharaji, it gave me some comfort that is was less likely I would ever unconsciously reject him, or that he would reject me.

5. There is Never A Legitimate Reason to Leave/Shunning Those Who Leave. It’s difficult for a follower of Maharaji to see how someone can legitimately leave “that place” and not be miserable. Ex-premies have heard it all, and I thought much the same when people left the cult when I was still a member. People who leave are labeled as “confused,” “lacking the proper understanding,” having gotten into the cult for “the wrong reasons,” wanting a “Hindu spiritual trip,” “undisciplined,” “never having practiced knowledge,” “negative,” or seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. You name it. We have heard it all. Just check out Pia Grunbaum’s and Charles Glasser’s websites, if you want to see it in print. And as for being shunned, how many of us lost our premie “friends” when we left? Now that some of us are notorious ex-premies speaking out on the Internet, that “shunning” has evolved into open hostility. It even extends to attack websites, like those of CAC, Charles Glasser and Pia Grunbaum. “Please Consider This” is just a lot more diplomatic on that score, but is essentially and attempt at the same endeavor.

6. The Cult Leader and the Cult Make Followers Feel that Any Problems Are Their Own Fault and Never Maharaji’s. This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Maharaji cult. The axiom is this: All that is good is due to Maharaji, or at least ultimately due to him, while all that is bad is due to the PWK, because of the PWK’s lack of understanding, always getting distracted, or “forgetting that place,” his or her own confusion, etc.

If you want to see examples of this, just read the Maharaji cult websites, and see how the writers thereon engage in logical gymnastics to keep from ever blaming Maharaji for anything that ever happened, but are quite willing to place responsibility on themselves or Maharaji’s other followers.

7. Information is Not Freely Accessible/Information Varies at Different Levels/Leadership Decides Who “Needs to Know” What. Elan Vital and Maharaji are notoriously secretive. Very little is disclosed, even to members. And of course, we all know how secretive Maharaji has been about his personal life, with people being “x-rated” in order to be around him. And even PWKs complain of the paranoid secrecy within Elan Vital and Maharaji’s organization. This kind of information control, especially when it involves information damaging to the perceptions of Maharaji and knowledge, is very important in the Maharaji cult, and always has been. This is partly why EPO is seen as such a threat, because it exposes information the cult is trying to keep secret, and information is empowering to people, and even encourages them to look critically at things they accepted as truth in the past.

8. Lots of “Loaded Language” (AKA Thought-Terminating Clichés). These are basically terms that have normal meanings to most people, but to people in the Maharaji cult, they have loaded meanings, that evoke an instantaneous “understanding” such that no further thought about what is being said is necessary. Just to name a few: mind, heart, knowledge, breath (that’s a big one these days), that love, that peace, that experience, that gift (really lots of words with “that” in front of them to convey special meaning), understanding, thirst, negativity, doubt, participation, gratitude, and my personal favorite, “synchronization.” Maharaji can use these words peppered throughout his speech and end up really saying nothing, but sounding profound, with appropriate nods from his followers.

So, by the time I walked out of the knowledge session, and became an official follower of Maharaji, I was already crippled in my ability to judge what was going on with me in relation to the cult and Maharaji. Then, Maharaji’s commandments and teachings, and the culture of the cult itself, discouraged critical analysis, and encouraged its continued repression. These are examples of how “mind control” works.

After a very short time, I was on automatic. I automatically engaged in self-censorship of my thoughts, almost all the time after that. It didn’t really matter the particular rituals or living situations I encountered in the cult, the real cult was by then existing largely between my ears, reinforced by the mind control mechanisms described above, and others as well. Sure, occasionally some doubts still got through, but they were pretty easily disposed of, perhaps by some extra meditation, or perhaps by getting a “group high” from an “event.” I want to emphasize that in other areas, on subjects unrelated to Maharaji and knowledge, I remained pretty much a normal, functioning person, to the extent I could be.

It wasn’t until I got out of the cult, and started to unwind that whole process, that I even realized that yes, I really was engaging in that process almost the whole time. When that happened, it was exhilarating. It was like I could finally breathe again, after I had somehow forgotten for a very long period of time.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you need to put ...
Message:
... your writings like this on a geocities website, and let me add it to the Maharaji Watch Web Directory, where they would be permanently accessible. They scroll off too quickly here. You've made some great posts lately, thank you!
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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 12:26:33 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Chuck, how do I do that? (nt)
Message:
It's my birthday today and I am now 28! My logic is that if I subtract 20 years of guru worship, I get to be young again, if not in body, in spirit.

Having friends over, so I won't be on board here today....I'm going overboard at home.())())

Feel free to send gifts! LOL!

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:45 (EST)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: happy Birthday
Message:
Happy birthday to you Chyntia, from me also , i wish you the very best
on your day ,, i think we will never see each other,, , but you have been a great help for me leaving the cult . keep it up.....

best wishes Ulf

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy Birthday, Cynthia
Message:
Be sure to have too much cake and ice cream.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:19:15 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
OK Here's a gift of love, happiness and prosperity.
And I agree with you Cynthia, we are younger than our age, we were in some sort of supsended state for quite some time.

Hope your day is great.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy :) Happy :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:08:36 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia!
Message:
I like your new math! It's great to be 28. I know that getting rid of all the Maharajism CONCEPTS we were fed, (all the while being told they were not concepts, just the Truth - Sheesh!) has made me feel a lot younger. Having a free mind again, it's like a fresh begining, which makes me feel younger. Sounds like it does the same for you too. So you have a great birthday, kiddo!

Best Birthday Wishes,

- Chuck S.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
Happy Birthday Have a great party
Lovve Magiclara
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:14:14 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia
Message:
I like your arithmetic. Have a wonderful day and a wonderful life, Cynthia. I wish you health, happiness and prosperity. Lot's of love.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:15:06 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia
Message:
Happy Birthday. Good for you for standing up and happily announcing it to everyone.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:48:16 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
Happy Birthday Cynthia! Here is a poem for what you lost and for what you have found.

Best wishes,
Susan

maggie and milly and molly and may
went down to the beach(to play one day)

and maggie discovered a shell that sang
so sweetly she couldn't remember her troubles,and

milly befriended a stranded star
whose rays five languid fingers were;

and molly was chased by a horrible thing
which raced sideways while blowing bubbles:and

may came home with a smooth round stone
as small as a world and as large as alone.

For whatever we lose(like a you or a me)
it's always ourselves we find in the sea

e.e. cummings

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: HEY HOTBOARDS! Hey Anth!
Message:
The four posts above have been assigned wrong numbers and have appeared here as well as in their rightful place under Cynthia's birthday wishes.

The first time this happened to one of my posts was late at night and I was so sleepy I was holding one eye open with two fingers. I thought I was nuts and didn't want to draw attention to it in case people thought I was paranoid.

In the clear light of the morning I saw that the numbers assigned to the posts were wrong. It's a bug in Hotboards' software.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: SEE! this message appeared here and ....
Message:
....in the thread below where I posted it.

Is Hotboards run on microshaft software? AAAARGH!

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 15:39:33 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: chassprague@yahoo.com
To: Joe
Subject: It's EASY...
Message:
You go to www.geocities.com. Sign up for a free website. Login. They have a whole bunch of webbuilding tools for making your own webpages. They are designed to be used by people who don't know anything about HTML. But even learing HTML is pretty easy, you already know some HTML, the codes you use to format your posts here are HTML. You just patse them into the blank page templates geocities provides.

You can also copy the source code of webpages you like, and use them as your template. Your broser probably has a 'view' option at the top. Select 'source' under that menu. Copy the source code, paste it into wordpad or notepad, delete the text content and paste in your own.

Rename the file with an '.htm' extention. Then click on the file, your browser will open it. If it looks right, upload it to geocities, or cut and past the contents into one of geocites templates.

My Computer Help Resources page has some helpful links about HTML if you want to learn some more advanced things, or download a free editor. I would be glad to help you with any questions, feel free to email me. :)

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 17:09:57 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Chuck, I sent you an email...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:47:56 (EST)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: All
Subject: BBC Radio Broadcast
Message:
People reading this forum who are able to tune in to BBC Radio 4 AM/FM radio in the British Isles should do so today (Tuesday 6th November) between 12.30pm - 1.00pm for 'You and Yours'.

The contents under discussion may be of great interest to you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:02:51 (EST)
From: ****
Email: None
To: FYI
Subject: Re: BBC Radio Broadcast
Message:
What is so interesting?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:34:24 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: Re: BBC Radio Broadcast
Message:
The fact that you have no idea whats going on. That's whats so interesting ****. K?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 19:13:46 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Good one Barry }) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: FYI
Subject: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt)
Message:
the program begins at 12.05pm (nt)
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:11:36 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt)
Message:
Eastern or pacific time?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:26:07 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: GMT, Vicki - long gone now.
Message:
Greenwich Mean Time,

The programme our mystery poster alerted us to turned out to be a phone-in about charities and fund-raising in the UK.

One caller spoke about the lack of transparency in many charities' publicising of their accounts. He was of the opinion that there's no excuse for charities NOT to post details of their finances on the internet (hear, hear!)

Another caller suggested 'phoning the charity of your choice and asking for a copy of their current accounts (which UK charities - and US ones too, I think, have to provide as part of their statutory obligations).

No mention of Elan Vital though.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Alas, time ran out.
Message:
Hi,

Radio 4 were doing a phone-in on charities, abuse of charitable status, etc. I called in the morning, and the programme phoned me back to put me on the air. Unfortunately time ran out, before I got to say my piece.

Ah well, better luck next time.

Anth, video killed the radio star.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:58:10 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Alas, time ran out.
Message:
I nearly ran over a pedestrian as I switched over from Mike Dickin (Talk Sport) to listen to a load of pleasant, banal stuff about charities on Radio 4 ''You & Yours''.

It's a pity you couldn't get on. You would have made the programme.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:40:20 (EST)
From: EV
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Junk Mail
Message:
Says here that EV is attempting to establish a method to keep their email propaganda machine in synch with your computer by working out a means of allowing their message to not be sorted out by spam filters, and it takes time to read through the many emails they receive. Hmmmmmmm.....why don't they just ask Maharaji how to deal with all the mail they are receiving? I'm sure he has an answer for their problem.

FROM EV (Newsletter)

Many subscribers write to the Elan Vital webmaster and newsletter team
about problems receiving email. You may be one of them. It is difficult
to deal with each problem individually and it takes time to read
through the many emails we receive. However, one way you can help yourself if
you are not receiving the 'Elan' newsletter, for example, is to click
on the link at the end of this email and check that you are subscribed
to the 'Elan Newsletter' email list. If so, the check box for the Elan
Newsletter will be checked.

In some cases, Internet Service Providers (ISP's) will check email from
services such as the one providing the newsletter, and block the email,
thinking that it is junk email or 'spam'. In this case the inability to
deliver email may cause our email system to terminate your subscription
after several unsuccessful attempts at delivery (this is a common
practice to protect subscribers from unwanted email).

Some email programs have user-modifiable lists of junk email sites. You
should check your email program accordingly if you are having problems.

We are currently investigating alternative email delivery applications
and hope to resolve many of your concerns in the process.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

EV webmaster and Newsletter team

PS If your ISP is blocking this newsletter because it considers it Junk Mail...Your ISP is probably smarter than you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:51:09 (EST)
From: PAMs post on LG
Email: None
To: All
Subject: has been deleted
Message:
what a sirprise!!!!!
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:52:27 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PAMs post on LG
Subject: There is not much going on over there
Message:
I thought there might be a blaze of activity over there when I checked in and decided to stir things up a little bit last week.

No big inferno going on, seems like just a handful of good scouts huddling around a dwindling campfire trying to keep themselves warm.

Throw a nice log on the fire to energize the place, like PAM/John's latest and they throw it out,

really dullsville over there on LG, just boring

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:00:20 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: There is not much going on over there
Message:
Maybe because there are only three or four real posters and someone has stopped posting under 14 different aliases.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:38:09 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Like someone over there said recently
Message:
Something about Valiant effort and hoping for medal or badges of honor at the end of it all.

Sounds like a scout troop to me

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:00:19 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: A scout troop full of....
Message:
imaginary scouts with an imaginary master.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:15:29 (EST)
From: Lord Baden Powell
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: A scout troop full of....
Message:
dib, dob, drip
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:28:58 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: PAMs post on LG
Subject: The site is GONE
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:32:22 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Which site? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:10:32 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Which site?
Message:
LG is gone, not just the post.

Hi JHB!())

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:32:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: LG is there now [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: not to me
Message:
so they blocked me because when I attempt to get in I get to a hotboard.

Thanks JHB.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Welcome to the CLUB
Message:
So, little salsa got her tostada banned from Lies Great.

What did you not do? ())

I'm so dizzy, my head is spinning. Congradulations

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Welcome to the CLUB
Message:
So, little salsa got her tostada banned from Lies Great.

What did you not do? ())

I'm sooooo dizzy, my head is spinning. Congradulations

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:22:48 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'Please Consider This, Not THAT' ...
Message:
Dear Unhappy ex-students of Maharaji:

I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about. I mean, really, I'M very sure, I couldn't possibly be a member of cult, as I have so carefully documented on my website, ''Please Consider This, Not THAT''. And these so-called CAC attacks were just balancing your own extream, cultist views. Why this time the CAC sites didn't even print your home phone numbers! Wasn't that nice of them? But are you grateful? No, of course not. That is really part of your problem. You are so out of touch with That Experience, that you don't even appreciate when The Teacher is extending His grace and mercy to you. No wonder you are so unhappy!

And so what if that unfortunate restuarant in San Francisco had it's name included in the meta-tags of the CAC site, so that it would be pulled up when people did internet searches for the restaurant? The owners of the restuarant should have thought about the consequences of becoming ex-students of Maharaji, and then being foolish enough to talk about it. Maharaji has warned his students many times of the certian consequences of being ungrateful.

Why, the whole idea of a forum for ex-students of Maharaji to talk about their doubts is just so silly! If they get hurt while doing so, it really is there own fault, you know. Besides, the SOS/CAC site just says that they are all ex-students of Maharaji (and we all know what that means), and that is the truth, so what is wrong with saying so? They really need to take resposibility for that, and accept the consequeces. Their whining is just so distastful and boring. They won't even look at their own faults, (which is why the CAC authors HAD to list them on the site), and then the ex-students get mad when we don't want to talk about it. Why on earth would we want to talk about anything like THAT? And doubting the purity of the Mas- er, Teacher, that is just too foolish, I won't go their.

Me, I follow Maharaji's teachings, and I leave no room for doubt in my mind, and it works just beautifully. All this ex-premie nonsense is just food for the mind, I mean, the Doubtmaker. Why would anyone want to do that when they could be happy instead? If you would just condsider THIS (what I'm telling you) and not THAT (all that other unimportant Doubtmaker food-stuff), you wouldn't have lost That Understanding, if indeed you ever had it at all. I mean, really, if you DID have it, how could you just throw it way, unless you are defective somehow? Not that I would ever say such a thing, because really, I am nice, and normal and not in a cult, too.

Anyway, I must rush off now, and dress for dinner. We are having friends over for dinner, who also happen to be students of Maharaji. And you know something? We are all so normal, we may not even mention Maharaji's name even once during the evening! How is that for not being in a cult? Pretty good, I would say!

Gratefull for the Teacher and That Experience,

Andrea Eriksonn,

A nice person who is normal and has 2.5 nice kids, a nice husband, a nice dog, a nice home and nice cars and a normal life with nice friends and a nice teacher who only wants me to think about nice things. What could possibly be nicer? Oh, and definitly NOT in a cult! (that's just so SILLY!)

p.s. I'm sorry you are all so unhappy, but really, it is all your own fault. And as Maharaji always says, the door is allways open, you can come back anytime you want! You don't even have to send him nice cards or letters, because he doesn't read them anyway, he just wants the checks. And if you sign up for automatic credit card deductions, you don't even have to send checks! See, Maharaji really DOES make it all easier all the time. I'm so gratefull! Oh but I really MUST go now, I think the colored help in the kitchen are burning something. I won't even yell at them, because I'm nice and not in a cult, and they don't have Knowledge, and I do (Gotta just LOVE That Understanding, don't you?) Toodle Loo!

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:32:55 (EST)
From: Fred Newman
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: Will you tell the Maharaja
Message:
I am glad that this isn't a cult and that you are all normal. So please will you tell the Maharaja that the vacuum method will work well in enlarging his ''personal space'' and I can let him have the fitted pump and the full works at discount price.

I was interested to read here that he might have a problem in that area and I must say, the vacuum pump method did wonders for me and tell him also, it'll even work if he's had a bit too much to drink!

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: ...Not even the other THING
Message:
Ahhh! Does it get any funnier?

My favorites:

And doubting the purity of the Master, Teacher, that is just too foolish, I won't go their.

Me, I follow Maharaji's teachings, and I leave no room for doubt in my mind, and it works just beautifully.

We are having friends over for dinner, who also happen to be students of Maharaji. And you know something? We are all so normal, we
may not even mention Maharaji's name even once during the evening!
How is that for not being in a cult?

A nice person who is normal and has 2.5 nice kids, a nice husband, a nice dog, a nice home and nice cars and a normal life with nice friends and a nice teacher who only wants me to think about nice things. What could possibly be nicer? Oh, and definitly NOT in a cult! (that's just so SILLY!)

I'm sorry you are all so unhappy, but really, it is all your own fault.

And of course, who could forget.

I think the colored help in the kitchen are burning something. I
won't even yell at them, because I'm nice and not in a cult, and they don't have Knowledge, and I do

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 18:45:27 (EST)
From: Sister Helen Wheels
Email: None
To: All
Subject: WHO DID THAT??!!
Message:
Dear Evil Ex-premies, stained as you are with the blot of original sin:

I want to know right now! You little hateful evil devils! According to the website put up by those loving non-cult premies, to really give it to you (http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/), you have done the following sinful, disgusting thing, probably for the purpose of engaging in self abuse:

Doctored photos of Maharaji, adding genitalia and other pornographic images, and posted these photos on the internet.

This is just too shocking!!! You are all going to hell, that's for sure.

But I have one question: Doesn't Maharaji already have genitalia? If he does, why would you need to add more? Is he, um, short in that department?

I mean, if he is missing genitalia, it is sinful for you to make fun of the poor man like that, even if he is a heathen and will be going to hell for all eternity because he is not baptised! I am shocked. Where can I see those pictures, by the way?

Good bless you dears. I will pray for your evil souls, which are doomed to perpetual torture in Pergatory, along with babies who died before they were baptised, and people who ate meat on Friday before Vatican II.

Sister Helen Wheels, BVM, Sisters of Perpetual Sorrow

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:12:24 (EST)
From: ****
Email: None
To: Sister Helen Wheels
Subject: SHW
Message:
You are no more then the dirt.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: Re: SHW
Message:
I think it's 'You are no more THAN the dirt. And whats wrong with dirt anyway?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:02:58 (EST)
From: Brother Hal N. Back
Email: None
To: Sister Helen Wheels
Subject: Yes, where are the pix?
Message:
Oh yes, please tell us where these unholy digital genitalia photos are.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 01:04:23 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Brother Hal N. Back
Subject: Visit House of Drek
Message:
That's where the pics can be found, although I don't think there's any of M's genitalia. More CAC lies. But there are some very funny photos of our former Lord and Master. These photos are the second most visited Rawat related web space.

Marianne

PS Link to House of Drek can be located by clicking on link to other websites found up top.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:23:50 (EST)
From: Brother Hal N. Back
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Been there Marianne
Message:
Oh, you mean those most irreverant Faux Krishna with 84 DDD juggies photos. Yes, I've see those. Tres amusement n'est ce pas? The bishop is being a real SOB about finding those pix on the parrish hard drive but he'll get over it soon.

Brother Hal who is a good friend of Postie

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:39:58 (EST)
From: Taffy
Email: None
To: Sister Helen Wheels
Subject: Excuse me, but would you...
Message:
... by any chance, happen to to be THEE Sister Helen Wheels? If so, then that's just too shocking! And if you are not the same person, then Lord Help us, if there's more than one!

- Sister Taffy, of the Friends of Baby Jesus (and the enemy of all weird belief system CULTS)

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:53:35 (EST)
From: Sister Mary Mae Hem
Email: None
To: Taffy
Subject: No, Sr. Helen has only one 'L'
Message:
Sister Hellen Wheels is somebody else, dear.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:10:11 (EST)
From: Sister Rossetta
Email: None
To: Sister Mary Mae Hem
Subject: Sister, don't even...
Message:
... talk to that Harlot Taffy. I have proof that Sister Taffy is not what she appears to be. She's the Devil's own, she's not fooling THIS bride of Christ! She's been trying to spread her wicked ways on the AG forum, now she thinks she can get a foothold here. But I won't let her! Neither should you, be warned!!! Such lunacy belongs on AG, not here!

Yours in Our Lord,

Sister Rossetta, The Lavender Nun

P.S. If it get's to boring here, come over to my site and Dance with Jesus.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:07:39 (EST)
From: Meher Baba
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Yet another one...
Message:
Here we go again. Stumbled across this guy's book today. Meher Baba, son of Babalamadingdong, of the famous Ramalama sect of the Doowopdidydums. Man, how many of these cats are (were) there out there? Another Perfect Master with the Divine Knowledge con.

The Path of Love
Meher Baba

Format: Quality soft cover, 129 pages.
ISBN: 0877283095
Second printing (c) 1986 Awakener Press.

The Path of Love is a collection of Meher Baba’s teachings which covers the whole range of religious and spiritual ideas from basic theories about God and the nature of man to advice on how to conduct our daily lives on the spiritual path. Because Meher Baba’s viewpoint is that of one who has himself attained God-realization, his words not only teach on an intellectual level but also awaken the reader on the intuitive level to his own God-essence.

Author Bio: (1894-1969) Merwan Sheriar Irani known as Meher Baba, was born in Pune, India, on February 25, 1894, of Persian parents. His father, Sheriar Irani, was of Zoroastrian faith and a true seeker of God. Merwan went to a Christian high school in Pune and later attended Deccan College. In 1913 while still in college, a momentous event occurred in his life...the meeting with Hazrat Babajan, an ancient Mohammedan woman and one of the five Perfect Masters of the Age. Babajan gave him God-Realization and made him aware of his high spiritual destiny.

Eventually he was drawn to seek out another Perfect Master, Upasni Maharaj, a Hindu who lived in Sakori. During the next seven years Maharaj gave Merwan 'Gnosis' or Divine Knowledge. Thus Merwan attained spiritual Perfection. His spiritual mission began in 1921 when he drew together his first close disciples. It was these early disciples who gave him the name Meher Baba, which means 'Compassionate Father'.

After years of intensive training of his disciples, Meher Baba established a colony near Ahmednagar that is called Meherabad. Here the Master's work embraced a free school where spiritual training was stressed, a free hospital and dispensary, and shelters for the poor. No distinction was made between the high castes and Untouchables; all mingled in common fellowship through the inspiration of the Master. To his disciples at Meherabad, who were of different castes and creeds, he gave a training of moral discipline, love for God, spiritual understanding and selfless service.

Meher Baba told his disciples that from July 10, 1925 he would observe Silence. Since that day he maintained his Silence until his death in 1969. His many spiritual discourses and messages have been dictated by means of an alphabet board. Much later the Master discontinued the use of the board and reduced all communication to hand gestures unique in expressiveness and understandable to many.

Meher Baba has traveled to the Western world six times, first in 1931, when he contacted his early Western disciples. His last visit to American was in 1958 when he and his disciples stayed at the Center established for his work at Myrtle Beach, S.C.

In India as many as one hundred thousand people have come in one day to seek his Darshan, or blessing; from all over the world there are those who journey to spend a few days, even a single day, in his presence.

An important part of Meher Baba's work through the years has been to personally contact and to serve hundreds of those known in India as 'masts'. These are advanced pilgrims on the spiritual path who have become spiritually intoxicated from direct awareness of God. For this work he has traveled many thousands of miles to remote places throughout India and Ceylon. Other vital work has been the washing of the lepers, the washing of the feet of thousands of poor and the distribution of grain and cloth to the destitute.

Meher Baba asserts that he is the same Ancient One, come again to redeem man from his bondage of ignorance and to guide him to realize his true Self which is God. Meher Baba is acknowledged by his many followers all over the world as the Avatar of the Age.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:46:36 (EST)
From: don
Email: None
To: Meher Baba
Subject: Re: Yet another one...
Message:
pete townshend from the who had a meher baba center in london back
in the seventies...
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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:12:49 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Quote from Meher baba
Message:
'I will remain silent for 25 years after which i will speak the Word that wil shake the world'.

NB 25 years after he said this (1966) he died without speaking anything.

A premie, who liked meher baba, told me that Maharaji became Satgurur in 1966 and that was 'the Word' that meher baba meant.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 04:26:49 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Oy veh, Jethro. I preferred your other quote
Message:
I just read above your quote from Guru Mayaraji: ''If anything comes between you and your Guru Maharaji, strike it out of the way.'' Or something like that. It sounds like quite few fantical CACweasels remembered that.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 22:47:34 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Meher Baba
Subject: Spiritualism made easy 129 pages
Message:
Everything you need to know about life and the universe condensed version. What was the price on this gem anyway?

Whatever the cost of the book, in the long run it would turn out to be considerably less than the 'free' product peddled by M and the cult.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:27:25 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Meher Baba
Subject: Re: Yet another one...
Message:
''Meher Baba told his disciples that from July 10, 1925 he would observe Silence. Since that day he maintained his Silence until his death in 1969.''

And his point was what...........?

''In India as many as one hundred thousand people have come in one day to seek his Darshan, or blessing''

Did he darshan people the same way rawat does, because if he did, those folks were awfully darn fast. There are only 86,400 seconds in a 24 hour day, and with 100,000 people a day wanting to slobber on his feet.............wow, quick kissers, I'd say.

Jeez..........you see one perfect master, you've seen 'em all.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:30:05 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Meher Baba
Subject: Meher Baba inHollywood
Message:
He made movie stars (including Rita Hayworth, who leaked the story) scrub his bathroom everyday and went to two movies a day. His excuse for going to the movies was that, by sitting among the audience, he was liberating them.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:21:27 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Meher Baba
Subject: intoxicated from direct awareness of god? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 14:49:57 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Prem trashes ALL premie mail!
Message:
Down below in John Mac's excellent long and detailed post, which should finally silence the trolls who alleged it was all hoax perpetrated by Lesley + two anonymous sisters - which no-one with half a brain believed anyway (not sure about people with a third of a brain, though...), a few new facts emerged regarding M's organisation, some of which might get overlooked through sheer volume of detail.

The one new piece of information I found disturbing, was the fact that ALL premie mail to Maharaji is automatically destroyed.

For me, this is one of the most damning things I have heard regarding our fake, one-time Messiah. Perhaps THE most damning...

Only because I remember - about two decades ago, during a dark-night-of-the-soul episode, after my brother Peter had just died, aged twenty-two - pouring my fucking heart out in a long letter to my new-found personal saviour and saviour of humanity. I even managed to get his home address off my community co-ordinator. What did I get? Not an effing dickie-bird by way of response. Not even a standard reply from some unpaid minion on mail duty.

Waste of valuable resources, heh, Prem? Folk who could be more usefully employed furnishing your nest with a few more luxury toys..?

My letter was probably just one of thousands of similar missives. Many from disturbed, distressed, freaked-out - potentially suicidal - premies; folk presumably often in need of professional help.

Prem Pal Singh Rawat. You well and truly disgust me.

Pack it in and leave humanity alone, why don't you?

At least until you've discovered the meaning of the word 'humanity'.

Nigel

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:17:05 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Really, what ARE you all going on about?????
Message:
You should be GRATEFUL that he never reads any of your whiney, negative, complaining letters. I mean, he said he doesn't know our names, and he doesn't WANT to know. So why would he want to recieve letters from us, when he doesn't even want to know our names, but just deposit our checks?

Several months ago, I had a dark night of the soul after I made the mistake of reading some of the EPO website after my children discovered it on the internet. I wrote to Maharaji asking all sorts of awkward questions about his drinking and drug taking, and having sex with female students and discarding them like yesterdays leftovers, about Jagdeo, the Chinese Fire Drill in India, and money laundering and Monica and all sorts of things that really weren't any of my business. What was I THINKING?!!!

At first, I was dissapointed when I recieved no answer. Then I became worried, that perhaps The Master, I mean, the Teacher, was mad at me, and perhaps my name was put on a special black list or something. Would You-Know-Who ever let me kiss You-Know-What again? My wonderful, happy life was being infected by the doubts of ex-students.

But now this John whats-his-name comes out of the closet on F7 and reveals that Maharaji throws away the mail without reading it. You all make it sound so terrible, but I was SO RELIEVED that he didn't read my letter, because now there may still be a chance that my husband, Scotch, and I may be invited for a cruise on Maharaji's yacht if we donate enough money! Once again, I see as positive something you all seem to think is negative.

Maharaji simply doesn't want to hear about all your problems, he drinks enough without having all his negative students drive him to drink even more. I realize now that I only wrote that letter because I talked to ex-students, and got caught up in all their negativity, which only encouraged my Doubtmaker. I started to think in ways that weren't making me happy, and started to question, to DOUBT the Master. The Master-Teacher. It began to interfere with That Understanding, and before I knew it, I was miserable. And Scotch really disapproved.

I now see that it was all because I began to entertain the Doubtmaker in my mind, even though Maharaji kindly warned me about that so many times. So I just threw away ALL my concerns about what ex-students of Maharaji think, the same way he throws away all your letters, because he is very wise and has to throw away your negative letters to be able to continue in his work vacationing and speaking all over the world without your confusion dogging him. I mean really, you people and your shitty, negative letters, you even tricked me into sending him one, why don't you just send him some ANTHRAX, huh? You are SO ungrateful. I could NEVER be as ungrateful as you, because I'm not in a cult.

And just to prove I'm not in a cult, I decided to make lemonade out of the lemons of my sour exprerience of not being able to answer awkward questions from ex-students (not to mention my children). I created the ''Please Consider This, not THAT'' website, which has helped me and other students of Maharaji become experts at not considering THAT stuff you people are always going on about. Maharaji himself is the perfect roll model for this, by his example. He throws away your letters unread, ignores your complaints, mocks people with questions, and really enjoys his life. And he wisely avoids news media and ex-students and other people who would interfere with That Understanding.

I am now resolved to do the same, which is why I won't publish or respond to your negative comments and questions on my website. I mean, really. Isn't it obvious? Who cares what YOU all think? If you were syncronised, it would all make sense. But you're not sycrnonized, so why waste precious time arguing with you? I'd rather work on my website and Leave No Room For Doubt In My Mind, lest I end up like YOU.

Haven't you even figured out that you don't have to love Prempal Rawat? It's Mawagi that it's all about.

One in That Understanding,

- Andrea Eriksonn,

Who is going to have sex now, and definitely WON'T be thinking of Prempal Rawat during that, which is even more proof that I'm not in a cult. :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:14:22 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Except for the ones....
Message:
Sally Reader used to answer letters way back when. She would always enclose a picture of his Lardship and in it something like, By His Grace or At His Feet, or some nonsense like that.

I wrote to Durga Ji once in 1983 and got a letter/reply from her. It was actually quite a nice and very loving letter, but she always was a sweetheart. Still have it around somewhere.

She actually sent me several books on pregancy and babies.
I remember one was 'Loving Hands' by Frederick LeBoyer.
Maharaji is a damn fool for not sticking with her.

Take care, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:27:35 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I got an answer too, in 1981.
Message:
Or maybe '82. Anyhow I asked him if he were the Messiah, and got a response from someone (not him, but some unpaid flunky psychoslave) that, in fact, he was not the Messiah but the spiritual version of Pepto Bismal. At that point I just figured I'd go it alone, since I wasn't exactly sick anyway. Turns out he was the spiritual version of Ipecac.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:25:45 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Actually I got an answer back once
Message:
It was a form letter signed by one of M's personal staff members, said that M loves us all very much, and is happy that we are continuing to make effort, stay in touch and always remember to meditate and realize this knowledge etc.

The difference here is I did not mail the letter, I gave it to Michael Donner directly to give it to the boss, Michael probably does not remember the occasion but it was at one of the LA programs in 82.

Thanks for following through Michael, I know that you probably got hammered on everywhere with people jockeying for access to M. Anyway it must have gotten passed through the system somehow, because I did get a token response, albeit a weak gesture considering that I poured my heart and soul into the blasted thing.

The reason Donner ended up with the letter was because I was going to read it out loud to m at the question and answer portion of the program.

What happened was at the end of M's talk where at that time he had typically been allowing the Q&A thing, he just up and bolted off the stage with no such concession. Then I saw Donner and earnestly plead my case, he took the letter and assured me that he would do what he could to get it to M.

I was really miffed at the way M ran offstage so suddenly, now I thank my lucky stars that I was spared possibly one of my life's most embarrassing moments, publicly flogging myself, bareing my soul in front of the guru and the assembled cult members.

Wow, maybe there is some grace in there after all.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:56:04 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Bogus reply
Message:
I was having a very difficult time after entering the ashram. Initiator Grace something or other told me that I only needed darshan.
Of course I wrote to M and received a reply from some bogus person on his behalf, quoting his satsang about us being like those zippy little jets (can't remember the kind) that burn up fuel really fast.

It was a completely stupid, insulting and insipid reply. Shortly after, there was a program, I think the Philadelphia one with the garland outfit, and Marolyn gave satsang. She said that a letter had come to the residence and that this premie didn't deserve to be at the event but that they were. Of course, I was so filled with guilt that I thought she was talking about me. I woke up sick and stayed at the hotel until the very last shuttle, receiving more guilt from premies saying I shouldn't be in bed. On the way to the program, M's motorhome passed us on the freeway. He just kinda looked at us as he was talking; I remember his hand moving about.

Personally, I wish no one would have responded. It was more depressing to get a bogus reply, and there was already more than enough depression to go around in the ashram.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:59:04 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: I wrote M every day....
Message:
During the mid-70s I wrote to m every single day. Sally Reeder and Dot Proctor were doing the mail answering service and I still have all the responses (quite a few).

Cynthia, once a gopi, now free

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:39:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Really??
Message:
Every day? When I was at IHQ Dot and Sally had the 'service' of answering M's mail. I actually fell for the idea that they had his 'grace' to answer the letters, and so the responses were 'perfect' and from Maharaji, the master.

Anyhow, one time in Miami I was practically suicidal I was so miserable, and I wrote a pleading letter and just left it on Sally's desk. I didn't even bother to mail it, because, why? Anyhow, Sally mailed a response to me, and it was just a quote from some satsang of M, completely irrelevent to what was happening with me. Then, because it helped me ZERO, I blamed myself even more fore being such a lousy devotee.

But every day? You must have been the gopiest of them all! :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 08, 2001 at 09:31:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Really? Yup, Every Day
Message:
I think that's why I got so many responses...they couldn't ignore me!

LOLOL

Take care Joe,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:39:45 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Maharaji never answered my letters
Message:
About a year before I left his cult entirely, I was sincerely trying to get answers from Maharaji, or at least some acknolwedgement that he even knew I was alive. I sent two letters, one registered and never got any response. I gave another letter to an Initiator who assured me he would get the the letter to Maharaji personally. I don't know if the Initiator was able to do that, but I never got any response to that, either.

At least in the early days, Dot Proctor and Sally Reeder had the 'service' of responding to M's mail. But with no ashrams anymore, and the pressure of Ferraris, yachts and planes, I'm sure that 'service' was disbanded.

To this day, I have never gotten even an acknowledgement that M even got my letters, let alone that he responded to them. I'm sure they went directly into the trash. This was after being his devotee for almost 10 years.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Prem trashes ALL premie mail!
Message:
Trashing the mail is a common practice among religious frauds. Robert Tilton, the insane television evangelist had his people remove the cheques from his mail and then trash the letters requesting prayers. I'll bet those letters of M's were inspected for cheques or cash before they were trashed.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:22:55 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: There goes my powder idea [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:11:04 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Careful, Bill.... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 16:07:39 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I always suspected that....
Message:
....he never read any premie mail but I thought he got the church-ladies to read them. This is a really low blow and will haunt him forever. No one that cynical and uncaring can sleep easily. No wonder he is a drunkard. May his soul rot in hell for all eternity.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:48:20 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: THE watch collection
Message:
Has anyone seen this watch collection of M's or knows someone who has? Just how big is this cache and what brand of watches are they?
Is an estimated value possible?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:50:26 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: THE watch collection
Message:
Vicki..I know for sure he has a Rolex GMT..Circa 1975..God that was nice of me..I know he needed it so badly...Peace...david m
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:47:30 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
Has anyone seen this watch collection of M's or knows someone who has? Just how big is this cache and what brand of watches are they?
Is an estimated value possible?
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:28:22 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Background on CAC
Message:
For anyone who didn't notice, the 'new' CAC attack has reinstated the CAC website on the Internet. There are also a couple of new ones in which ex-premies are compared to neo-Nazis, and terrorist groups.

Here's the statement from the victims with FIRST time CAC showed up in August:

STATEMENT BY VICTIMS ATTACKED BY THE MAHARAJI CULT

August 30, 2001

The undersigned were recently attacked by unnamed premies (devotees of Maharaji), by means of an Internet website called “Citizens Against Cyberstalking” (www.stopcyberstalkers.org) which, at first glance, appeared to be a public service to the victims of harassment. These premies targeted the twelve of us, who are all former followers of Maharaji (“ex-premies”), by labeling us criminal “cyberstalkers,” and by listing our names with eight other alleged “cyberstalkers” who included child molesters and kidnappers.

The website was an incitement to anyone viewing the site to contact our employers, families, professional associations, licensing bureaus, and other entities to inform them that we had engaged in criminal activity. The website provided corresponding addresses, telephone numbers and email links for them to easily do so. The website also included our pictures, disclosed addresses of our homes and businesses, telephone numbers and email addresses. In one extreme attempt at intimidation, the authors of the website even went so far as to provide the picture of the young child of one of the ex-premies, and listed the address of where the child lived. It also included false, out-of-context, and misleading information about all of us, including twisted and fabricated quotes these premies used as “proof” of their allegations of our mental illness or criminal activity.

The obvious goal of these premies was to blackmail and intimidate us so that we would refrain from posting about Maharaji and his cult on the Internet. The perpetrators specifically offered to refrain from further blackmail if the victim did so. Sadly, one of our numbers, so frightened about the safety of his daughter whose picture and address were displayed, capitulated publicly to the blackmail and his name was then removed from the “cyberstalker” list.

We believe we were singled out for attack from among the hundreds of ex-premies who have posted on the Internet because we are perceived to have been effective in helping premies who no longer want to be a part of the Maharaji cult, who were staying out of fear or other reasons, to leave the cult by supplying information that has been kept secret by the cult for many years, and by generally offering them support. Some of us were targeted because of what would appear to be our particular vulnerability to blackmail. Three out of the twelve appear to have been chosen because they are gay, one appears to have been chosen because his child was vulnerable to attack, and most of us were chosen partly because we have posted under our own names on the Internet, and hence were easily identifiable.

The website authors claimed that as premies they, themselves, have been the victims of defamation, harassment and other illegal activities at the hands of ex-premies, but no proof whatsoever was provided. Much less, no proof was provided that any of us, the actual victims of the website, had engaged in any such activities, and we categorically deny that we have done so.

Although the perpetrators claim to consist of four individuals, we have reason to believe that Elan Vital, the front organization for Maharaji, and Maharaji himself, may have instigated, contributed to, or condoned this attack. We have been informed by reliable sources that Elan Vital has been “monitoring,” collecting data on, and even doing external investigations of, ex-premies who have posted on the Internet about Maharaji. We have also been informed that Elan Vital has assigned monitors to review our postings to compile extensive files on all of us, and we feel there is good reason to believe, based on the nature of the attack and who was chosen for the attack, that that information compiled by Elan Vital was used to prepare the website, and to defame and attempt to intimidate us. Whether the Elan Vital hierarchy officially condoned the use of this information is difficult to know.

Under the circumstances, we find Elan Vital’s press release of August 23, 2001, both utterly inadequate and insulting, because it does not specifically condemn this attack, and it blames the victims for causing it. We are concerned because the press release is yet another “dig” at ex-premies, and might encourage the more fanatical of Elan Vital’s members to do something similar. We also suspect that Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka Maharaji) may have been personally involved, at least to the extent of tacit approval, since to date we are aware of no public statement by him disavowing the website and its perpetrators.

After threats of legal action were made publicly by several of us, the website was modified on August 23, 2001 and replaced with a statement that the premies behind the site would be contributing their “database of resources” to two unnamed organizations. This statement, which implies further dissemination of the defamatory material, as well as the possibility that it or a similar website could appear at any time, makes it even more alarming that we have yet to see any statement whatsoever from Mr. Rawat about this, nor have we seen any evidence of attempts by him to attempt to stop his more fanatic devotees from doing anything similar in the future. Since the perpetrators claim personal allegiance to Mr. Rawat and his teachings, we feel Mr. Rawat has a moral and ethical obligation to make such a public statement.

This event is an ominous sign. Until recently, most of us believed that the more fanatical elements had died out years ago after the Mahatma Fakiranand incident in the 1970s. But these events, as well as earlier attempts by Mr. Rawat’s lawyers to shut down the websites through which ex-premies share information, lead us to believe that the Maharaji cult may be headed in the same direction as other destructive cults, such as Scientology, which attack former members who disclose critical information and opinions. Since we the undersigned stand behind our statements and opinions, and do so by not being anonymous, and because we intend to continue speaking about the subjects of Mr. Rawat and our former cult, we are understandably concerned about our safety.

We can understand why the cult is concerned about us, to the extent of wanting us to be intimidated off the Internet. In addition to providing a support for premies leaving the cult, ex-premies have been extremely effective in publicizing the fact that Maharaji is not at all the person he has tried to project, and in fact he has serious personal flaws that he has attempted over the years, with great effort, to keep secret.

We have also pointed out that Maharaji's priorities do not appear to be what he professes. During the same time he has amassed immense wealth for himself personally, he has failed utterly in 'spreading knowledge' and has thousands fewer followers today in the West than he had 20 years ago. He rarely does 'introductory programs,' rarely advertises his existence or that of 'knowledge,' and has shown little interest in doing anything other than retaining his core audience, his dwindling group of devotees from the 70s, and engaging in technological gimmicks, pretending that these are finally going to spread the word, after 30 years of failed attempts.

If anyone needs any proof of the fact that Maharaji has reverted to his “Lord of the Universe” roots to retain these devotees, they need only note that as recently as a few months ago, in a high-security enclave in Australia, Maharaji had these devotees sing ARTI to him, a lengthy Hindu song premies sang to him in the 70s, which clearly describes Maharaji as a deity, and more extreme yet, Maharaji had those same devotees line up by the hundreds to kiss his feet. Neither Maharaji, nor Elan Vital, are about to tell any potential aspirant that such events occur in the year 2001, as Elan Vital deceptively presents Maharaji to the unsuspecting world as northing more than a entirely secular, modern, meditation master. But if these people happen to turn to the Internet, they just might learn the whole truth, and armed with more complete information, make up their own minds about who Maharaji is and what he offers. For these reasons, we will not be intimidated from providing a public service by speaking out freely about Maharaji.

Joseph Whalen
Anthony Ginn
Marianne Bachers
Jeffrey Leason
William Williams
Salam Al-Ahmar
Michael Dettmers
Patrick Conlon
Jim Heller
Jean-Michel Kahn
Gerry Lyng

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:34:54 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Background on CAC
Message:
According to John McGregor's (Pam's) post below, it appears that the highest echelons of EV were involved in developing the strategy for these sites. His revelations have great legal significance.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:20:16 (EST)
From: Mr. Observation
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Background on CAC
Message:
Talk about vile and disgusting. The CAC website and others are a perfect representation of all the deception, fear and lack of responsibility that EPO has been dedicated to exposing about margie and his minions. Predictably, the very crime it is crying wolf about is the one it is itself perpetrating. It's apparently not enough that the people being attacked on these sites gave the best years of their lives - some giving 25 years or more not to mention large dinaros and complete servitude - to the greedy preening pig in the Krishna crown and gucci loafers. Now they have to endure these scandalous defamations from totally faceless accusers on so-called anti-cyber-stalking websites - patently, the sole purpose being to try to salvage margie's reputation. If anything untrue or unsubstantiated is being said about margie and his org then libel lawsuits against the individuals (who clearly identified themselves - and CAC has physically located) should take care of it. But no, these severely deluded and anonymous cowards think they are helping margie counter those who would interfere with his mission. Margie's defiant refusal to own his own past - accept responsibility for errors in judgement and direction - and actually treat his (ex)followers with love and respect - is what is causing his downfall.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:12:07 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CAC Update
Message:
I understand that the Maharaji cult now has FOUR, count them, FOUR illegal, criminal attack sites targeting ex-premies. I wonder how Mitch Ditkoff and the Andersen twins justify this kind of behavior with their arguments that they really aren't in a cult. Comparmentalized thinking, I guess. One wonders if they will ever get around to saying anything about it.

Fortunately, one of the four sites has been dropped by Angelfire. After I complained, telling them that members of the Maharaji cult were going after ex-followers because they don't want us criticizing their cult leader, they removed the website. Here's the email I received today:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Lycos Network Abuse Department.

The member and/or site you reported to the Terra-Lycos Abuse Team has
been removed from our servers.

I wanted to clarify that the creator of the page is in no way directly
associated with Tripod, Angelfire, or the Lycos Network. Neither Tripod
nor Angelfire exercise any editorial control over what our members place
on their pages nor their other Internet related activities.

To report any further violations, feel free to visit
http://reportabuse.lycos.com.

I hope you will find that our prompt response addresses your concerns.
If you have any further questions or comments, please do not hesitate
to contact us.

Sincerely,

Fred

Terra Lycos Network Abuse Specialist
http://reportabuse.lycos.com

Thanks, Fred. One down, but three more, including the 'mirror' of the site removed are still up there.

You know, I feel really bad about this, not because I'm one of the victims of this amazingly foul, vile activity, but because I still, to this day, hold onto the notion that premies are basically sincere, loving people who wouldn't resort to criminal activity to protect their cult. I guess I have to discard that notion.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 13:15:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: COPY those sites!!!
Message:
I would like to request that people make copies of those websites, quickly. They may not be around much longer, and the evidence needs to be preserved.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:06:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Did someone COPY those sites!!!
Message:
I hear that they are down.
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:43:18 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Apostates and New Religions? those sites!!!
Message:
I copied the site that listed my name on it, and also every single page on the Angelfire CAC site. Did you know that on one of it's resources pages, it had a long disertation about the reliability (or un-reliability) of testimoney by ''apostates'' of ''new-religions''?

An interesting item to have on a site that is supposed to be about stoping cyberstalking (as apposed to being just a front for protecting a cult). It's interesting too because it implies that what M is teaching is a ''New Religion'' after all. Is the spin doctoring spinning out of control?

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:09:35 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I have the home pages and exes profiles [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 17:10:20 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yea!!! Spot on [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:36:35 (EST)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Second Coming
Message:
SPOT THE DIFFERENCE:

1. 'In early July I spoke in five cities around Korea. There, I declared that my wife, WFWP
President Hak Ja Han Moon, and I are the True Parents of all humanity. I declared that we are the
Savior, the Lord of the Second Advent, the Messiah.'

Rev. Moon
Unification News August 24, 1992

2. 'Sri Sai Baba lived, acted and behaved as only a 'God descended on Earth' can.'

Website of the late Sai Baba of Shirdi

3. 'Leland told me, 'Swami's job isn't to make you happy, it's to liberate you.' In his case, that
meant giving up his career as a motivational speaker and then his marriage. 'Sai Baba is the most
powerful being that ever came to the planet,' he said... Somewhere between 10 million and 50
million people worship Sai Baba as God incarnate.'

salon.com story on the currently living Sai Baba

4. 'Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king.
There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world
with full powers.'

Maharaji (Peace Bomb)

5. Doctor (approaching bed of mental patient): Good morning - what's your name?

Patient: Napoleon.

Doctor: I see... And who told you you were Napoleon?

Patient: God told me.

Voice from next bed: I did not!

Dear Ex-folk - and premies,
There were quite a few posts so far in response to my first one (I gave up counting after 200), so
it may be hard to respond to everyone individually, unless I hire secretarial staff. Therefore
I'll just say general things, and respond to some popular themes. If I've dodged a specific
question you asked, it's probably because I don't know the answer - tho you can try me again if
you think it's important.

Most responses were very positive - thanks. I feel a little safer here now, and am inching toward
posting under my real name. But I'll do this in my own time - so no pressure please. Try to
remember what it's like in those first fragile, difficult months. The fragility is compounded when
you send off a post like my last one, by 200+ posters wanting more information - as well as premie
critics saying either I don't exist or I made it all up. On top of that, the Pam post was
circulated quite widely from exes to premies, then from premies to other premies - with the result
that there was an EV campaign to unearth Pam. This resulted in quite a few waverers and recent
exiters being hassled by EV - including myself.

On top of that, many of those whom I could formerly talk to about problems of this magnitude are
avoiding me. And the entire intellectual framework I would have had for dealing with it is gone.
So be kind, and be patient.

Additionally, whilst one's rational mind has finally realized that Maharaji has blown it
(seriously and forever), one's nervous system still has some catching up to do: so doubts and
fears surface regularly. It's not an easy time.

I say this not merely to evoke pity for myself (!), but to warn premie readers of what lies ahead
for them, when the dissolution of Maharaji's Western empire gathers steam over the next year or
two. The transition out of cloud cuckoo land is not a comfortable one: be ready for some serious
intensity. But also be aware that there is a large global community of (IMO) helpful, insightful
people who will do anything they can to help you.

For all the raucousness of the forum, the ex-premie community is everything the premie community
should have been, but signally failed to be: egalitarian, compassionate, irreverent, mutually
supportive. The ex-premie community also embraces the free flow of information. After the years of
EV's information-suppression, in-group secrets and language-distortion, this feels to me like a
borderline spiritual experience.

I might add, for the benefit of exes, that the next year or so will (IMO) be one which taxes us as
never before. The trickle of defectors (i.e. people needing an awful lot of help) is likely to
grow into a torrent.

Anyway... As for the claim of fabricating or embellishing my information, I guess this is
reasonable speculation: after all, I didn't give the names of the people from whom the information
derives. (They/we didn't want this.)

For all that, I think a lot of my information can be checked for accuracy.

For instance, there may be someone on this forum who could ask Glen whether he wrote the
confidential 'Jagdeo' memorandum to Deepak when I said he did. (Less than half a dozen people in
EV saw this memo: it was not exactly plastered across First Class.)

Someone else may know a person who is or was in the Personal/Executive Area, who could verify
whether M's staff are trained to lie to Marolyn about Monica. Numerous staff have been trained in
this: it has been institutionalized for some years. I can't believe we can't find at least one
person to confirm it here.

Someone else may have been to the IOC in Delhi in the late 1990s, and seen Jagdeo there. (For the
record, we exchanged a few words, then he picked up the phone on the windowsill of the small IOC
office, and began making a call.)

An so on. Those doing the checking could then report back to the forum.

Obviously not everything could be corroborated - premies, even exes, may not talk about everything
- but perhaps enough to form a 'pattern of credibility' (Jim no doubt can give us the correct
legal phrase), and thus satisfy the critics.

There are people lurking on this forum already, BTW, who (collectively) could verify nearly
everything in these posts. So far they don't feel this is a safe place for them. I hope that will
change.

There's also the small matter of EV's Pam-hunt of recent weeks. Quite a few premies who haven't
been heard from for a while, among others, have been called up by EV organizers and instructors in
various parts of the US and Australia, in a quest for Pam. If the post was a series of fictions,
or mere embellishments of known facts, why all the fuss?

For the record:

The information in my posts derives from my own experience, the experiences of exes whom I know
well, and the experiences of premies who are still in the fold. I am a real person. I am not a
regular poster here. I am not a fiction created by a regular poster here. I am not an amalgam of
several people. I have told very few people of my identity, and none of them has told anyone else
- let alone told a premie. (Though there have been several Pam 'confirmations' implicating the
wrong person.)

I did not get any information whatever from the forum archives or from recent posts - except
perhaps when I referred in passing to an accepted fact, e.g. that Jagdeo molested children.

Everything I said is true. Well, I did get a date wrong. (See a forthcoming post.) And the
crucial, all-important arti trays were a bit of poetic license. (In reality I don't know whether
there were arti trays at Amaroo in April - but I'm happy to accept that there were not, from those
who noticed.)

I was an EV organizer for nearly three decades, and, as I said, an occasional PAM. I have worked
for some years in Maharaji's residences.

I don't know how to prove all this to anyone's satisfaction. Maybe some detail will help - a few
reminiscences from my decades of premiedom:

- Marolyn was M's special guest in a private room at the Astrodome (before anyone knew they were
an item).

- The English and American security teams were brawling - especially over the walkie-talkie
allocation - at Millennium.

- Bal Bhagwan Ji (Vishnu and Jesus in one) said 'Isn't it?' after every second sentence.

- Raja Ji (once Brahma, and also King of the World) gives vent to a maniacal, feminine, shrieking
cackle when M tells him jokes.

- Bhole Ji (Shiva - destroyer of the universe, or at least of an awful lot of good music) was
rather mentally slow, and was (last I heard) on Bal Bhagwan Ji's team.

- Mata Ji (Holy Mother of the Universe - or was it God? Or all the gods? I forget.) had a bad
flatulence problem.

(This, BTW, seemed to bother just about everyone except Mata Ji. Mata Ji's problem is possibly the
reason M is so uninhibited in talking about flatulence today.)

Thesedays, Mata Ji is believed to be hosting banquets for departed Third World dictators, and has
her eye on the Virgin Mary's job as Queen of Heaven.

Sorry - I'm off the track...

I could add that M loves his stereo more than most pieces of technology he owns; that he did
private showings of a video of his former Malibu residence being demolished, for PAMs and
residence staff in various cities he visited; that he eats large amounts of red meat, and
particularly enjoys it barbequed; that he sometimes takes two years to finish a painting; that he
used to tell his minders filthy jokes between techniques during Knowledge sessions; that he 'gave
darshan' to a number of women I know, one-to-one, at his residences over the years (which now
makes me wonder if he was checking them out - though the ones I know are brunettes); that
residence staff labor to place cups, plates, ashtrays, etc as close as possible to where he will
be sitting/standing/passing, to save him the slightest physical effort, as we believed he was
permanently exhausted from his massive task of bringing peace to the world; that the 1997 Aussie
newspaper article which someone recently posted here caused M's non-premie co-pilot to learn who
his boss 'Prem' was for the first time - which angered 'Prem' vastly (co-pilots have flown with M
for long periods of time without knowing who he is); that he got premies onto a cherrypicker to
spraypaint blackened trees green after the LA fires in 1977; that massive care is taken to screen
out insects from his residences as he doesn't like insects, and is particularly scared of spiders,
all of which must be killed before he shows up somewhere; that after a Delhi Holi in the early
1980s (80? 81? 82?), hashish prasad was handed out to all and sundry, with the result that the
whole ashram, including mahatmas, slept or wandered around like zombies for 3 days, and one
particularly 'religious' westerner freaked out and left Knowledge; that M eats chillis raw 4 at a
time, and believes they have euphoric qualities; that at least one recent member of M's personal
staff, who has seen some appalling behavior by M, has in her head 'another Maharaji, whom I don't
want to know about', whom she separates mentally and emotionally from the 'real Maharaji' - which
is about as good as dissociative thinking gets, I guess; and that many PAMs work this same dynamic
by saying, 'I love Maharaji, but I don't like Prem Pal Singh Rawat at all'; that there are regular
stresses, feuds and fallings-out between various members of M's over-worked, under-rested and
under-rewarded residence/executive/traveling staff; that M sometimes lets off steam by blasting
away at rabbits with his rifle; that M's residences and stopovers are always stocked with serious
alcohol in advance of his arrival; that EV's latest corporate mantra is 'targeted outcomes'; that,
despite his temper tantrums on the ground, M is actually very calm and unflustered when traveling
(basically he loves flying and has excellent crew); that plane staff are sworn to secrecy about
goings-on on the plane by M personally; and that M's relationship with Monica has for many years
been a source of considerable tension between Wadi and her father.

What else? The versatile Bobby Hendry sometimes has organized the dining for an entire program
(several thousand people) as well as chopping up and cooking M's dinner - and is also the source
of M's tractor joke; when leaving foreign ports, M's plane staff tend to stay in separate hotels
from him, and to get up as early as 4 in the morning to buy his food for the next leg; the premie
lawyer, Virgil, spent several years in India sorting out the post-Holy Family legal fallout;
Reggie Brown (M's security chief) has returned to the army - indeed he's a three-star general -
and left his office in the Pentagon on Sept 11 five minutes before the terrorist plane went
through it; and - my shocking piece de resistance - Sampuranand, on whose back M used to ride as a
kid, has a soft spot for the cognac.

The situation with M's 'premie-mail' is also worth a mention. As you'd know, thousands of premies
worldwide write to M each year. (You were probably one of them.)

Mostly this mail does not reach Maharaji - nor has it for many years. Generally it is destroyed
unread.

The mechanics are simple: at an event, a premie known to have access to PAMs will be given a
bundle mail to be forwarded to M. The PAM on the spot (e.g. Craig Weeding), knowing the routine,
and after verifying that the bundle does not contain a letter from someone important, will say,
'Throw it in the trash.' It will all then be thrown in the trash.

Occasionally some letters will be salvaged so M can quote from them at an event - but these are
the exceptions.

When M leaves a city where he has a Residence, his mail is left, unopened, in the Residence. It,
too, is thrown in the trash.

It might be worth mentioning this one to your premie friends when the next divine visit is
imminent. It could save them shopping a whole afternoon for the perfect card for the perfect
master, and an evening's work distilling their deepest feelings onto paper. (It still happens,
believe me: I've delivered M's mail myself.)

Would any of the objectors to my last post care to check this out with their PAM friends and
report back to the forum?

On the subject of my last post, I haven't seen any substantial factual criticism to date. (I don't
count 'She made it all up.') If premies - or for that matter exes or fence-sitters - would care to
present concrete evidence counter to things I have claimed to be true, I would be happy to address
it.

That way, we can get final versions of these posts onto EPO (minus the Goebels-like lie about the
arti trays of course) as a permanent written record - and feel ethical about it. I certainly like
the idea of memorializing our experiences and journeys on EPO in this way.

And in light of EPO, it's ironic that one of the long-standing mottos of Elan Vital's
ultra-cautious global PR team is:

'Anything in print is permanent.'

Now that will be too.

I know some of my premie friends will be hurt by this post. Criticising the Master is the final
no-go area. This was a bit of programming installed in our Knowledge sessions, and it's been
well-reinforced ever since. All premies have it - and in my opinion it goes deeper than anything
else. I've seen whole rooms fall silent when someone even hinted that M had made an error: there
was literally nowhere to go with such a topic.

Yet, in assessing my posts, I would simply ask premie readers to use truth as the criterion - as
they would have before Knowledge, and as they still do when evaluating non-Maharaji aspects of
their lives. In other words, to judge what I have written simply on the grounds of whether it is
factual or not. If I have lied, or manufactured information, I deserve all the censure that will
undoubtedly come my way. If I have told the truth, where, then, should the criticism be directed?

I have been hanging out with a lot of premies lately. None of them has ever heard of Jagdeo, or
the Delhi bicyclist, or the blondes. For me, this has been a real insight into the information
restrictions within Maharaji's world. These things are all landmarks in Maharaji's career. Imagine
how well-known they would be if Maharaji were a politician or church leader.
This wall of silence is more often than not a result of self-censorship. It's true that M and EV
aren't exactly free with information, or particularly truthful. But the information is out there,
and the real problem is that most premies don't want it. In my opinion, the assumption of
Maharaji's divinity and infallibility lies behind this.

Anyone who has done Maharaji's trainings will affirm that no criticism of the Master is possible.
No argument with him is countenanced. No correction or amendment of his point of view is allowed.
These things are not allowed by him; they're not allowed by the trainers and PAMs; and - most
significantly - premies do not allow themselves to go down these roads either.

(To underline all the above: in 28 years I only once saw a premie object to something Maharaji
said. This was at the Sept '99 training, when M told 80 of us that there 'is a sickness in this
room, and we have to cut it out'. A very brave premie respectfully replied that if there was a
sickness in the room, then Maharaji must be a part of it too. That premie was verbally cut to
ribbons by Maharaji who, after a protracted screaming fit, stormed out of the room. The premie was
taken on a long walk by a PAM, and set straight.)

Surely the premise behind this extraordinary behavior can only be that Maharaji is infallible.
Otherwise, premies would insist on the right to dialog with Maharaji meaningfully (as we do with
our political leaders, or even leaders within EV at times), and to criticise him and amend his
edicts, where appropriate.

There has never been any such right in Maharaji's world.
This is a very interesting revelation, isn't it? It's a secular, democratic age, where free speech
is enshrined in our national constitutions. We're adults with free will - who may exercise
excellent, objective judgment in all other fields. Yet we believed that the man we allowed to be
our Master could never be criticised - presumably because he could never be mistaken.

The recognition of the fundamental wrongness of this idea - logical wrongness, psychological
wrongness, organisational wrongness, ethical wrongness - is the deepest of rivers for a premie to
cross.

It's doubly hard because to do so would mean acknowledging that what binds one to Maharaji much of
the time is not love but fear.

I saw this fear close-up - sweating, apprehensive faces, shaking bodies, trembling voices,
cringing body language - at the training I attended. It's very real. It's also almost impossible
to acknowledge - because we have, for decades, been the first victims of our own propaganda:
Knowledge is freedom, the Master is compassion (.....and I am Marie of Romania).

Discovering Maharaji's real nature is definitely a tricky business. Of course, given the basic
facts, it would take a fair-minded outsider about thirty seconds. But we are not outsiders: we
have been extensively re-wired at the pre-logical level of our psyches.

Thus: are Maharaji's personal excesses a reflection of his corruption - or a game by which premies
must on no account be distracted? Is his utter certainty about his mission the result of being
raised since infancy to fulfill the role of God incarnate - or of a genuinely special role in the
world? Is his recurrent anger the result of poorly reconciled internal energies, or even excessive
drinking - or of his compassionate desire to drive home to us important lessons as fast and as
well as he can? Is his lying about (for example) his role in promulgating the 1970s 'Indian
concepts' the result of pride, unscrupulousness and self-deception - or of being beyond normal
human morality by virtue of his special role? Is his sexual use of female devotees an abuse of his
extraordinary psychological power over them - or does it derive from an overarching understanding
of their psyches, and concern for their well-being, which others like ourselves simply can't
grasp?

Unbelievably for those of us who have come back through the looking glass, these are questions
which all premies have great difficulty in answering. Some of these people have astronomical IQs.

For some time I had difficulty answering them myself: paradigms as vast as M and K are not
overthrown overnight, especially when they have been implanted in one's formative years. So I put
them in the too-hard basket until I could gain some perspective.

In the interim, I examined the circumstantial evidence, which is less ambiguous. I looked long and
hard at the chronic dysfunction of EV - which goes back three decades. I looked at the lack of
progress - internal and external - in the lives of most premies. I looked at the 99% of premie
marriages which had failed. I looked at the absence of spontaneity at large events. I looked at
the caliber of the people Maharaji has chosen to surround himself with.

Finally I asked myself: Can a good tree bear rotten fruit?

Having neared the end of this 'anonymous' post, and the long inner process of writing it (it's
taken weeks, on and off), I've just been made aware that the CAC websites are back with us.

The timing is fortuitous. Throughout this year, I'd always determined that I would not post here.
But when I heard about the first CAC website (after returning from a ten-week working trip to the
US in August) I decided immediately that it was time to nail my colours to the mast, and posted
here under my own name. (This was a brief, conciliatory post a few weeks ago.) I don't believe one
should ever cave in to CAC tactics: bullying and misinformation have been rewarded for too long in
M's organisation.

Similarly, I was intending to call it a day with this post. But so far as I'm concerned, the
rebirth of the CAC sites are a reason to stand up and be counted. I'm now planning four further
posts:

Maharaji's trainings - which are pivotal to an understanding of his modern approach - are in need
of examination. I also have a little further info on Jagdeo, and other (unnamed) sexual pests.
Thirdly, I'll provide some further elucidation of how money has been raised and processed within
EV.

And finally, very few people realise how serious is EV's present decline. In the next year, the
organisation is to be wound back throughout the West. Indeed it will disappear organisationally
(and probably even legally) in many countries over the next 12 months. Maharaji is currently
scratching his head over what might fill the void. No ideas have been forthcoming. Propagation has
halted. September 11, furthermore, has caused massive financial problems, as major donors jump
ship and pull out loans. In my opinion, the writing is on the wall for the decline and fall of
Maharaji's mission in the West, and the time-frame may be quite a bit shorter than we had
expected. So I'll pen a fourth post on that.

It now seems like a good idea to reveal my identity as well. I'm a little too lazy to go back and
re-write the entire post, so I'll just tack it on here.

Doing this should put to bed doubts about 'Pam's' authenticity, and will moreover allow me to
interact with my premie friends more honestly.

(Several premies and others have asked me if I'm Pam. I apologise for lying - and in some cases
for spinning a bit of disinformation. On the other hand, you did insist on putting me on the spot
before I was ready to come out.
I should add that there were small bits of disinformation in my first post - for example US
spelling, the odd spelling mistake, and my claim to use a PC, when in fact I use Macs. This was to
protect my identity in the course of the inevitable Pam-hunt. None of these bits of disinformation
affect the truth of what I said about M, K and EV. The only one that was a bit borderline was my
claim to have been to several trainings. In fact I have been to one (Sept 99) - however making
this clear would have all but given away my identity, as only two people from that training have
so far left Knowledge. In addition to that training, I worked at several others as a staff member,
and have interviewed numerous premies and exes who have been to others still. I will use all this
information to write my next post, on the trainings.

On other occasions, I actually downplayed my information to protect my identity. For example Scott
Ritter himself, and not an intermediary, approached me, early this year, about his brief to employ
'radical new approaches' to countering EPO.)

My name is John Macgregor. My DOB is 11/11/51. My home address, for writs and cyberstalking
purposes, is 36 Peter Street, South Golden Beach, NSW 2483 Australia. (Please be careful with
explosives, anthrax, etc, as I often have premies down from Amaroo as my houseguests.) My vocation
is journalist: I write for newspapers in Australia and the US. My phone and fax number is 61 2
6680 5509. My email address is johnmac@turboweb.net.au. I'm not sure if anyone wants my hat size
or inside leg measurement, but these can be obtained on application.
I am already well-known to the FBI, as I interview them on a regular basis in the course of my
work in US politics - so I would request that cyberstalkers cite them the above details carefully,
for identification purposes. The Miami Field Office knows me best, however Special Agent Steve
Berry and SA Michael Bonner (among many others) in the Hoover Building will also be able to
assist. Additionally, Attorney General Ashcroft (ultimate boss of the FBI) is familiar with my
work on FBI matters, as is Rep. Dan Burton - Chairman of the US House of Representatives Committee
on Government Reform, which has ultimate law enforcement oversight responsibility. My friend James
C Wilson, the House Committee's Chief Counsel, may also be a good person for cyberstalkers to
approach, as he and I have co-operated extensively on matters relating to the Bureau, and he knows
my background pretty well already. (Indeed the House Committee's most recent hearings on
FBI-related matters - which I recently attended in Washington - employed extensive evidence that
had been obtained by yours truly.)

Cyberstalkers could send information on me to any one of the above - or, of course, to a person of
your own choosing. If it is desired to contact the Australian authorities as well, can I suggest
the Australian Federal Police as the first stop? (Maybe Beryl Janz, National Media Office, could
point you in the right direction.) Or, to cover all federal law enforcement avenues, you could
just go straight to the office of the Prime Minister, John Howard, who has final responsibilty for
Australian law enforcement matters, and whom I interviewed for four of Australia's major daily
papers, late last year, on the subject - happily enough - of law enforcement.

Finally, if the sponsors of CAC and its sister sites care to contact me directly, I can also help
you out with your spelling.

Here's a little of my premie background:

I received knowledge at the age of 20, and practised it till just short of my 49th birthday. I
first spent time with Maharaji when he was 14: in Sydney on October 6, 1972, I sat in his bedroom
and watched him sit on his single bed and repair a reel-to-reel tape recorder, for about an hour.
Over his door was a large sign saying 'The Lord of the Universe'. I don't recall him asking anyone
to take it down - but no doubt I missed this, as the EV website has made it very clear that he
never claimed to be God.

In years subsequent to that I helped organise Australian tours, including the 'Second Coming' tour
of the mid-1970s, whose dates changed continually, and for which Maharaji eventually didn't show
up. (When Christians asked why all the dates on our placards were different, I quoted them the
Gospel of Matthew: 'Thou shalt not say what hour thy Lord doth come.')

I have opened doors for him, rolled out carpets, and set up backstage areas. I spent a week with
him in a training in September 1999. I worked at his Residence in Brisbane through most of the
1990s - sometimes living there for weeks at a time, both when he was there and when he wasn't. In
a spectacular lapse of judgement, I even tried to crack onto Monica Lewis at the gate one day -
possibly my most embarrassing moment since pranaming to Bhole Ji. I also (less often) worked
around the original Amaroo residence, or 'Lodge', and his new one at the 'Windmill'.

As for other service: I established DLM in South Australia in January 1973, and was community
co-ordinator there for three years; established DLM/EV's national legal structure in 1974 (still
in place); worked with Bestway in the early 1990s, getting people to and from the large Amaroo
events; at Amaroo '97 I oversaw the five sales shops, and the purchasing warehouse, helped with
the registration package, arranged the site-wide electronic purchase system, helped get a
recycling system up, and supervised the post-event de-briefing process. Thereafter, I precipitated
the Amaroo Mutiny of 1997-98.

Having spent most of the proceeds of the sale of my house ($A50,000+) working at Amaroo
self-supported, I withdrew from full-time service after the Mutiny - tho more from poverty than
disillusionment. The last service I did was to co-manage the travel for the Amaroo fundraisers'
conference a year ago - tho my heart had gone out of service to Maharaji by then, and I didn't do
much of a job.

'Pam' has sometimes adopted a flippant tone. But underneath this there is a heart cloaked in
sadness that all my hopes and dreams in regard to Maharaji and Knowledge - which have been the
focus of my adult life - have been broken. The destruction of one's idol is not a pleasant thing.
The sadness is very real, and you just have to accept that it will permeate your life for a while.

I don't particularly want be going through this transition. But after the revelations of M's
covering up Jagdeo's crimes against children - indeed his continuing to reward Jagdeo with high
office - I didn't really have a choice. How could anyone remain in an organisation that sanctifies
the rape of children?

The bicyclist and the blondes were the icing on the cake.
The candles which illuminated the cake were my growing understandings about cult psychodynamics,
and my growing grasp of projection: how easily we can confer divinity and compassion (to say
nothing of authority) on another human being. With all this unravelling at once, the game, quite
literally, was up.

I'll write more about all this in the coming posts.

These posts sometimes get emailed to and among premies, so I'll include the URL of the Ex-Premie
Organisation - www.ex-premie.org - so those premies who wish to can safely explore the facts about
Maharaji's real life and work, in EPO's excellent archives.

And I'll bury Pam now, and post hereafter in my own name.

As I said, I'll now write four more posts, each on an aspect of Maharaji's work and mission:

1. Mindfuck (Maharaji's trainings)

2. Rape (A little more on Jagdeo)

3. Plunder (Divine finances)

4. Annihilation (Maharaji's fast-declining Western empire)

Best Wishes to all,

John

the artist formerly known as Pam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:44:55 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow
Message:
Although the effects of exiting the cult will be painful at times,it is well worth it. You are also doing quite a service (whoops!) to those beings still under Maharaji's influence.
Are you afraid of Maharaji going off the deep end and trying something especially tricky when he realizes the gig is up? You know him better than I do thank God!
Best of luck and thank you for such a well thought out post.

A long ago exited premie and never a PAM, never-the-less, I would love to see the bastard receive his due. Gad, how long does one have to wait for justice?

Thanks again and hang in there,\
Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:20:48 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thank you John, and...
Message:
John-

Thank you so much for your eloquent and moving post.
I knew from the tone of the first one that you were sincere, and were going through a lot with your exit.

It gets easier, at least that has been my experience with it.
I think the most difficult part is just before leaving, and everything after that is liberating...angry and hurt at first, but gradually subsides into wonderful feelings of freedom, liberation, personal emotional/psychological understanding, better relationships with everyone, no separation from 'the world' (and no need to), real inner peace, ability to have 'peak experiences' commonly and with no need to rely on m for them, loss of the 'guru filter' in relating to life, better family relationships, and in my case 3 women suddenly chasing after me because they felt I had so much 'soul' (this was especially gratifying, since I had just left the one that I thought gave me 'soul'....nice to see that it really comes from me, not from him)....lots more blessings to count as they come into view...

Thanks again for your honest, heartfelt posts.

An Important Note: When people like you who have been around m for a long time speak out it helps a lot of people...maybe more than you will ever know...

But when you put your name to it, as you have done, it multiplies the power of that action multiple times....I believe it actually takes it from the realm of possible/probable fantasy to concrete reality, which is so important for premies to see....

A few comments:

1-Do you know more about the cac stuff?

2-Do you know more Pams who might speak out now?
Do you have any concrete suggestions how the forum might be more accomodating to that process?

3-In relation to the flood of exiting premies, do you have any suggestions what might enable us to help them?
I think this is a very important point....any ideas?

4-Do you have any idea how m feels at this point, as you seem to indicate that the western empire is crumbling, and m is scratching his head about what to do....

Thank You John,

Jim Sander

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:20:27 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Thankyou for your thankyou
Message:
Thanks Jim for your response.

I'll try to answer your questions: (Maybe someone can tell me how to italicise questions to distinguish them from my answers...)

1-Do you know more about the cac stuff?

I've posted all I know. M would be behind it personally, as a matter of logic.

EV has been made aware for a few days now that the CAC sites will soon prove to be far more PR trouble than they are worth, and I am hopeful that they will shortly disappear. (Someone told me this has started - can't confirm that.)

2-Do you know more Pams who might speak out now?

Yes, I have been emailed by 2 or 3 PAMs, mini-PAMs and ex-PAMs since posting. I believe they are likely to come out in due course.

EV regards Jagdeo as its biggest PR minus, and I expect it will propel more PAMs and mere Earthlings out the dooor in due course. How could it not?

3. Do you have any concrete suggestions how the forum might be more accomodating to that process?

I'm going to post about this around post 6 (I just posted post 2). In a nutshell, I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people. Mel Bourne posted above that he came here for ages as a cult apologist: I took a long time to come around too. The ex who won me over to the Devil was very patient with me. When I made a stupid or morally bankrupt argument - as I did, often, and as most premies will do for a while - she demolished the argument - but left me intact, and unshattered, to focus on the process.

We exes can have complete faith in the power of our arguments. They will continue to win people over.

BTW, the personal criticisms which sometimes appear here serve to keep several defectors of my acquaintance from posting: they don't feel safe here. It would be good to make this place safe for everyone. The premies, trolls, et al obviously only come here because they have doubts. Other than the monitors, M has made it clear that they shouldn't be here.

I should add that I tend to be a little romantic about these things, and I am a very recent ex after all - my head is still spinning somewhat - so I don't have total faith in my judgement of this issue. But I can vouch for the fact that the emotional 'danger' of this place helps deter some very interesting people from posting.

3-In relation to the flood of exiting premies, do you have any suggestions what might enable us to help them?
I think this is a very important point....any ideas?

Yeah, it's hugely important. I'll post some of my ideas on this in post 6. At a guess, if it were possible to separate the forum's functions of allowing exes to process their stuff, and giving premies an alternative POV - maybe into two separate forums - that might help. More private, password-protected forums like Recent Exes can only be a good thing, IMO. Maybe one for fence-sitters, with a few non-threatening exes involved in it?

That's just off the top of my head. Rather than an idea from me, what this matter might reallly need is a debate here. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas than mine.

For those who haven't done it, or who can't remember it clearly, I cannot express how vulnerable one feels on leaving K - or in contemplating leaving K. I'll post a list of symptoms on post 6 from standard cult literature: but they are doosies, and post-traumatic stress disorder is extremely common amongst them. Many exiters really needs to be in a cocoon of some sort for a while. Even Maharaji understands that times of transition are fraught with great peril, which is why he gives the aspirants and K-takers such close attention. The same applies on the way out, with bells on.

'The crisis consists of precisely this: the old is dying, and the new cannot yet be born. In this strange interregnum, all manner of morbid symptoms appear.' (Gramsci, from memory)

4-Do you have any idea how m feels at this point, as you seem to indicate that the western empire is crumbling, and m is scratching his head about what to do....

Precisely none. I would imagine he is talking amongst advisors about new strategies for getting things happening again, and about what shape his post-EV mission might take. But that's just a guess. He is extremely resourceful and intelligent, and deeply convinced of his mission. He won't lie down and die for quite a while.

But staving off financial problems will be an impossibility, and I'd expect a serious curtailment of activities and/or a sale of some assets in 2002.

Best regards,

John

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:14:54 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: John
Subject: And thanks again, John
Message:
John, among other wise thoughts, you say:
'I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people.'

I can not agree with you more. We were all once deeply involved and must be compassionate to those still walking behind us.

Thanks for your words of reason, concern and inclusion.

Richard

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:08:12 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Jim S.
Subject: Thanks for a great post. Jim:
Message:
Are you the Shipster from three years ago?
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:07:38 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Good post Jim S.
Message:
Ahem, so what is it about you that has 3 women chasing you? Peeked my curiousity, indeed.

I like your questions, especially about accomodating what I also believe to be a big exodus for the cult. I'm hearing lately from Premies who must be lurking. It's cool.

And don't worry guys, I won't OUT you. You are welcome to email me if you just want to touch base, ask questions or talk about your feelings. I have a lot of respect for your concerns and even doubts. It is premie/EV spin that we are out to hurt you. Trust me on that one. I look fwd to hearing from past roommates ;) or other folks.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:52:01 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: mahamindf@aol.com
To: Pam
Subject: John, May I offer My Heartfelt Gratitude..
Message:
To You…and my Friendship and Support also...If you should care for it. I am Blown away by your Post…as I was by your previous one...When I first Read PAM...it was clear to me that She was Brilliant and Insightful and If REAL...a Critical Messenger in unraveling the Maze that Had Trapped Me And Others for Lo these Many Years…

John, your Posts help me see behind the curtain…and understand Maharaji's Charade even more clearly…They are Powerful in their Insight and in their Information….I am sure they are adding to the 'Cognitive Dissonance' reverberating in Premieland…now apparently approaching Critical Mass on an Organizational Level…..Because of that Im Sure that MahaRawat and His appointed henchmen and women will do their best to silence and Discredit you…

For Many years, I have given my loyalty to one not worthy of it…It is still Very painful to Realize how misplaced it was. May I offer just a piece of that Loyalty to you , John, and other PAMs who are courageous enough to Speak the Truth. Thank you for Speaking Up and having the Courage to put yourself and your name out there. If there is anyway I can be of assistance to you, please do not hesitate to ask…Warmest Regards, RichMandrake.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:10:05 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thank You incredable nt [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:09:53 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thank You incredable nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:36:37 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thanks John.
Message:
Thanks for your candid honesty John. Posts like yours have a big effect. It's powerful writing that can change lives.

I'm looking forward to your future posts.

I too posted anonymously when I first discovered the forum. It was a premie pal who persuaded me to use my own name.

Keep 'em coming Pam.

Anth Ginn, heresy to order.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 01:42:48 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: You ask the best question:
Message:
'Can a good tree bear rotten fruit?'

The whole tragic mess of thousands and thousands of well-meaning, idealistic and trusting souls having been ensnared into a grotesquely dysfunctional, greedy, inept and duplicitous con game led by an megalomaniacal ass -- what bitter fruit indeed.

Maybe I am an old softy, but sometimes I even feel really sorry for M himself. In the long run, he himself has been duped by something, the idea of his 'divinity', and it has created a monster. He has been trapped by the legend for which he was groomed and later eagerly assumed. We see now clearly before us what an unbridled, unchallenged, indulged and pampered ego is: It is one of the ugliest things in the world.

One wonders if in his heart of hearts he knows he is a fraud and a fuck-up. God help us if he doesn't. God help him if he does.

Thank you for one of the most compelling posts I've ever seen here. May your healing and resolution continue to bring peace to your heart and encouragement to all others who come to these dialogues for help and perspective on their cult-centered lives.

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:23:35 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Re: The Second Coming
Message:
All I can say is 'oh my god' and thank you. Thank you very much for coming forward.

It is amazing to me that when a premie comes to these realizations, the deepest part and indeed best part, of a human being comes with such deep sadness and disappointment. This, to me, is a testiment to the magnificance of the best part of each of us that went on this odyssey for the lord incarnate. That's what we put on those arti trays, not ghee and flower petals. Our hearts, our lives, our souls.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:14:14 (EST)
From: Mel
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thanks John..
Message:
.. for your heartfelt comments and sincerity.

I knew you many years ago and your intelligence and dry wit are still very strong. Unlike you, I haven't been closely involved with Maharaji and EV for many years, but have been quietly supportive of him in the background. I have been a contributor here as a 'Maharaji apologist' for 3 years or so, but certainly the Dettmers revelations and the Jagdeo issue catalysed a 'rethink' regarding Maharaji.

Your 'exiting' seems to be quite sudden and painful compared to mine, I have the embarrasment of ferociously arguing the toss with some ex's here over the years and indulging some ridiculous intellectual contortions to maintain my point of view, contortions that even I was aware of as I was performing them! The Dettmers stuff last Xmas and his evident sincerity changed my perception.

Your comments brought a lot of memories back to me and I sincerely hope that you survive this transition well.

Take care

Mel (I'm still much too embarrassed to reveal my id)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 19:29:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Yes, Mel, that's definitely called 'lying'
Message:
Your 'exiting' seems to be quite sudden and painful compared to mine, I have the embarrasment of ferociously arguing the toss with some ex's here over the years and indulging some ridiculous intellectual contortions to maintain my point of view, contortions that even I was aware of as I was performing them!

Discussing this point further on AG, you said:

The intellectual contortions I was referring to was really an inate resistance when I was confronted by some of the facts relating to Maharaji which I was unwilling or not ready to accept. I wasn't particularly lying, maybe indulging in some self deception especially if I felt particularly cornered or attacked but I was always testing the mettle and probing the merit. Of course, there was also an issue of pride as well!

Mel, why do you continue to mince words? Is this an ingrained habit or something? You admit that you knew that you were making 'ridiculous' arguments. At the time, you were accused by me and others of that very thing: making ridiculous arguments. But, of course, you not only denied doing so you pretended that you couldn't understand why we'd ever accuse you of that. You were lying, Mel. Really, it's appalling to think that anyone could even think of giving you credit for 'sincerity' in the circumstances. I know sincerity and the posts of Mel Bourne, anonymous Aussie premie and cult apologist extraordinaire, was not it.

Maybe once you get the courage to post under you own name you'll deal with this a little cleaner.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:37:41 (EST)
From: Stand Down Counsellor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mel doesn't answer to you
Message:
This line of questioning is totally unnecessary - Mel doesn't need to 'come clean' about his past obfuscations to you or anybody. The important thing is that he has broken from the mega-me and his band of merry cultsters.
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 21:57:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stand Down Counsellor
Subject: Who are you to say?
Message:
I'd like to think that anyone who wastes my time wilfully should indeed answer to me. Why not? Mel lied to us for years as he's now admitted. Mind you, maybe you weren't here and had nothing invested in any of those dialogues. I was and did.

If Mel truly apologized, that'd be one thing. But, as he said on AG, he thinks that if I or anyone bothered to argue with him, that was my or our problem, he doesn't owe anyone any apologies. He's wrong.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:06:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Want to do something helpful, Mel?
Message:
Mel,

You now admit what we all knew for years, that you were lying all along when you made those ridiculous arguments in Maharaji's defence. You put any of us who tried to reason with you through outrageous frustration with your 'intellectual contortions'. And why? Because you thought you could lie your way through it all.

Here's a constructive suggestion that I hope you can seriously consider notwithstanding its source: why don't you go back through the archives and find a bunch of your bullshit apologist posts? Repost them but this time with commentary explaining what you were really thinking as you lied and dissembled to save your then- (lucky you!) Master. You're an intelligent guy and good writer and I have no doubt that that exercise might have a truly salutory affect on any premies reading the forum. That would be something, don't you think?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:07:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Hi Mel
Message:
Dear Mel -
I won't comment regarding the intellectual contortions :), but I have always appreciated the tone and sincerity of your posts - and your integrity and kindness.

Take care - and hope all is well with you -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:43:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: How can you say that?
Message:
Katie,

By his own admission, Mel was consciously fucking with the truth:

I have the embarrasment of ferociously arguing the toss with some ex's here over the years and indulging some ridiculous intellectual contortions to maintain my point of view, contortions that even I was aware of as I was performing them!

He was accused of doing exactly what he now admits hundreds of times and always denied it. That's called 'lying' which, last time I looked, was hardly sincere. Hm?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:35:49 (EST)
From: Confusious Say
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wise Man Sometimes F**Ks with
Message:
Truth while he is figuring out how to Leave Lady Falsehood
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:11:35 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sheesh, Jim!
Message:
I acknowledged that in my post. What I did appreciate is his support of Susan and Abi, and his general support for human rights (even in EV) and I think they appreciated that too. The mental gymnastics re Maharaji don't mean all that much to me compared to that.

Wanna lock this thread? (Snicker!)

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:20:00 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right on Jimbo
Message:
We could tell he was a lying dog. :)
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:04:52 (EST)
From: Cult Spotter
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Excuse me, but weren't you LEAVING...
Message:
Or don't you ever say what you mean, and mean what you say? A retorical question, since you never do leave, you just change personalities. How embarassing for you (but of course, you don't think so).
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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EST)
From: cult member
Email: None
To: Cult Spotter
Subject: Yea but YOU LEAVE and then return.
Message:
You just don't get it do you?

BUT KEEP ABUSING, IT WORKS WONDERS FOR YOUR SOUL

Like leaving anything traumatic, it takes time to leave this particlar forum cult. It's a gruelling time of loss and confusion.

I've stopped spending hours on the net, then went to half an hour. Now my Doc has put me on a diet of ten minutes forum a day. This will then be reduced to 5, 3 and so on.

I'm sorry if my presence here is making you feel uncomfortable.
It shouldn't be too long before I'm just a distant, if rather unpleasant, memory.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:55:46 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cult Spotter
Subject: Re: Excuse me, but weren't you LEAVING...
Message:
Yeah! Didn't you say you were leaving and taking all your multi alias whackos back from whence you came. Surely, it was would better time spent talking about your beautiful expereince with all the spiritual deep folk at Lies Great.

Heard they talk about Forum VII and how PAM is not a real person all the time. Must be blissful, not a waste of time, like here. But Oh! All they do is talk about here. Well Go figure.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 03:13:40 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Mel
Subject: Come on Mel, we're all embarassed
Message:
.......but we've also have got our self-respect back. Sounds like you are starting to enjoy standing on your own two feet.
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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:11:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Thanks, excellent ... but why just 4?
Message:
John,

You're a good read and yes, I like the rest, really appreciate the contributions. Sorry to hear how difficult transition's been for you. It's been so long for me I can barely relate. However, interestingly, I can relate, even given the time. That's one hell of a deep tatoo we got.

I just would urge you to not set such a short and definite horizon on your activity here. At the end of the day, these are the people who walked that walk with you. We're all vets of the same war hanging down at the legion. You earned your lifetime membership, might as well use it.

Thanks again,

Jim

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:00:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Pam
Subject: Congratulations, John
Message:
And thankyou for sharing your experiences. I'm very sure that the coming years will bring the expressed gratitude of many people living inside and outside of Oz who will find the courage to face their own emotional issues binding them to the cult after reading your words.

I am also very glad to see that you want your experiences to be included as a permanent part of the information available on EPO.

You've made a big difference in the lives of many people - most of whom you will never know.

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 23:08:08 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Re: The Second Coming
Message:
thanks john. i felt your saddness beneath the word well before the ending. i certainly is not easy for anyone (of us) to come to grips with so many years of giving our power away to someone else. i applaud your courage and wish you the best in the continued unravelling of your story/life. there is life after the cult. there is personal power to be enjoyed and celebrated after so many years of fear. (yes, your point re fear is well taken and so very true...as the real ruler not love in the dynamics of the master/devotee).

and over time you will enjoy your friends more...connect with them more honestly and truely because there will not be this mythological person we always had to deflect everything to...that separated us from each other. what a pity those wasted years in that regard were. and there is/will be saddness in leaving some old friends behind who cannont make the transision into their own lives and power at this time. in my experience that can be a hard and sad bit. but such is life and uneven growth.

and on the other side will perhaps for you (for me) the kernals of truth that the whole show is wrapped in...the truth that we are great and beautiful and full of life...and it can be experienced within inside us all the time. that we are love and worthy of love. that we can serve the higher good still without giving our power away. finding that we do not have to go thru anyone else or pray to anyone else to have our truth is very liberating indeed.

best of it all pal.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:44:59 (EST)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: damn donner you said IT !!!!
Message:
and it can be experienced within inside us all the time.

YOU ARE HEREBY DOCKED FIFTY DOLLARS (US) FOR ILLEGAL USE OF LANGUAGE !!!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
you can send it directly to my bank account via paypal...thanks (snicker)

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:11:25 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: On the subject of paypal...
Message:
Dontcha need some outhouses with golden fixtures up there in rural Washington for you and Patty to set upon during the cold northwestern winter? Whose going to be your Yoram Weiss, geRrY?

Love, your pal, but not yet your paypal, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:40:51 (EST)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: On the subject of paypal...
Message:
Dontcha need some outhouses with golden fixtures up there in rural Washington for you and Patty to set upon during the cold northwestern winter? Whose going to be your Yoram Weiss, geRrY?

Love, your pal, but not yet your paypal, Marianne


---

Yes I was telling Patty about Yoram Weiss this morning. She thinks Bill Burke might be the right choice for me. What do you think?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:45:16 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: No, my vote goes to...
Message:
Bjorn! That way you can fleece the EU exes too! And he has such a great bedside manner. You'll soon be rolling in so many golden toilets that you'll be able to start a collection, and compete with Captain Rawat's watch collection.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:37:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: LOLOL gErRy! NT
Message:
Bad boy, Donner...
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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:51:22 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Yuck !
Message:
You say:

'I have been hanging out with a lot of premies lately. None of them has ever heard of Jagdeo, or
the Delhi bicyclist, or the blondes. For me, this has been a real insight into the information
restrictions within Maharaji's world.'

Well, I was one of the hoi polloi who knew nothing at all about this stuff until I got connected to the internet. Are you implying that anybody who was anyone knew these things all along? If so how could they keep on believing in Rawat's divinity?

I kept on with it because my 'practice'was pleasant(even though I usually fell asleep),& I got a high from the events. Going to somewhere like Rome in November,meeting people from times long past, it's a blast if you can afford to do it. The old days of penal servitude are a dim memory & everyone gets off on the cosmic joker's stage show. Chuck in a few hours sightseeing,a good dinner or two,& you've had yourself a weekend break to die for.

You do it because you believe that M is divine in some way, you want to be with the divine,then you find out that however far you stretch the definition it snaps when people tell you what the guy is really like.

How come those who knew what he was like kept up the facade?
Maybe we should have a war crimes tribunal.....joke.

You say:

'Discovering Maharaji's real nature is definitely a tricky business. Of course, given the basic
facts, it would take a fair-minded outsider about thirty seconds. But we are not outsiders: we
have been extensively re-wired at the pre-logical level of our psyches.'

30 seconds, exactly so, it didn't take this outsider or many more like me to make our minds up once we had the information.

Thanks for your contribution.You must've had the blinkers set on straight ahead if you knew all these things but still believed,& that is a serious misfortune.

Looking forward to your future posts: Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 21:29:31 (EST)
From: Marie of Romania
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: The Second Coming + the First Going
Message:
John:

Thank you. I would have thought, after the first CAC attack and the subsequent renewed resolve of some exes to continue speaking truth to fiction about M, that EV would have known better than to attack again. I am glad you responded in the manner you did, so EV perhaps can learn that lesson this time around.

You said, 'Unbelievably for those of us who have come back through the looking glass, these are questions which all premies have great difficulty in answering. Some of these people have astronomical IQs.'

I agree. I know some very intelligent premies, but what must be considered in this situation is that there's an intellectual IQ and an emotional IQ. A diminished emotional IQ is what allows premies to live with cognitive dissonance.

Thanks again, and I certainly look forward to your future posts.

Marie of Romania ~) (couldn't resist)

EV Monitor: Regards to JMB and DM

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:24:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marie of Romania
Subject: Greetings, Marie
Message:
(Intriqued by the title of your post, of course!)

This is one section that really grabbed me in John's post and I think it's relevant to what you said. BTW, I agree about the intellectual IQ vs the emotional IQ - I've suffered from the same problem myself over the years and still do at times, abeit fortunately not around Maharaji.

...at least one recent member of M's personal staff, who has seen some appalling behavior by M, has in her head 'another Maharaji, whom I don't want to know about', whom she separates mentally and emotionally from the 'real Maharaji' - which is about as good as dissociative thinking gets, I guess; and that many PAMs work this same dynamic by saying, 'I love Maharaji, but I don't like Prem Pal Singh Rawat at all'.

Take care,
Katie




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