Carl -:- Gratitude to this Forum and its participants -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:27:29 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Welcome Carl and thanks for the -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 18:45:36 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Hi Carl -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:29:22 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- bold and italics -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:37:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- bold and italics -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:51:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- bold and italics -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:25:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- OK let's try again -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 01:09:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- bold and italics-try another way -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:32:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- bold and italics-try another way-1 more sneak -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:47:11 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- PS Carl, I enjoyed your post. Thanks. (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:30:57 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Thanks from me, too... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:46:01 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Welcome, Carl, I really enjoyed your first post -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:12:04 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Did you play the trombone? -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:10:58 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:37:26 (GMT)

__ __ Carl -:- Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:47:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- *** Many Questions Arise, but Best Of!! *** -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:34:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Excellent post, hi, nice to meet you, but ........ -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:15:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Excellent post, hi, nice to meet you, but ........ -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:59:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good ideas and all but you didn't answer my q's -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:17:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- will try to answer: -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 12:35:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks so much, Carl -- really 'enlightening' -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:23:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite?? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:05:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite?? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 17:31:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite?? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 21:37:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jim, I did know some Satpalians until 85 and they -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:17:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- would that have been Jimmie LoDato and family? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:14:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- No, but the guy I knew was also a self-made -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 04:21:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- You're the first poster to back me up -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:04:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- How's my ol' buddy Dick Parke? still with April? -:- Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:23:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- very impressive , nt -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:52:07 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Yes, thanks -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ bob -:- Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you... -:- Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:54:37 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:27:29 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gratitude to this Forum and its participants
Message:

So where do I send my hard-won rupees?

But seriously:

I've been checking into this astonishing site for at least a couple of years. I've learned a lot and laughed a great deal. And almost wept. This is my first post.

I am tremendously moved by the sincerity and intellectual vigor demonstrated here in the grappling with the profound issues summoned by involvement with GM & K. This site is a most necessary antidote to the stultification of inquiry and censoring of shared discourse about some pretty thorny questions that refuse to go away.

It seems that all those who regularly post or lurk/monitor here are permanently captured by the GM & K phenomena. If we weren't, we wouldn't even show up. Is it 'once a premie, always a premie'? Can't ever shake it?

But how great that the boddhisatva spirit persists that brings you all here -- some so much that I wonder how you ever get anything else done! -- for the benefit and, dare I say it, upliftment of humankind. This particular internet space seems critical for the prevention and cure of our unique brand of superstition, fear and bigbrotherish mind control. It is empowering and refreshing, in all its variety of tone and content.

I've been thinking that there are other issues on the table, having to do with the future course of religious/philosophical thought on this planet, and how political, scientific and economic realities will be affected by how people think about what now seems to be just another slick/sick guru cult.

Not that we'll live so long as to know how history will unfold; however, we just may be born back into it (if you subscribe to that notion).

I mean, consider how the lives and subsequent cults of Jesus, Krishna, Mohammed, Buddha, et al., have influenced the course of history, and have both inspired AND retarded scientific and artistic understandings and progress, having directly or indirectly brought both exquisite beauty and utter depravity into being.

Perhaps this is just the way, the will, and the reflection of conflicted 'human nature', both in its individual aspect, and collectively. Man makes gurus, he needs them for some yearning reason, and Nature (in the way that Nature abhors a vacuum) provides. It may be the natural and civilized mentoring phenomenon that has gotten both amplified and distorted. Didn't P.T. Barnum also have some insight along these lines?

It seems there is a concerted effort to market and perpetuate the guru's myth and reputation, true of most any guru. The Bible's Apostles as well as today's EV are doing much the same kind of work: PR for the CEO.

But how to guard against education from becoming indoctrination? How to cultivate respect for, if not to celebrate, diversity in cultures, philosophies and outlook, without the tendency toward witchhunts, pogroms, holocausts, and jihads? How to prevent differing canons from becoming cannons?

That's what is so great about this forum, and I am indeed grateful: People are trying mightily to understand what the hell happened -- and is happening -- and to resolve the discord between the teaching, the practice, and the promise. Yes, we may have been 'had' on one level, but we were 'giving' it to ourselves, too. And in the work of resolving all this, there still seems to be immense benefit.

Some brief background:

I first heard of 'the young 13-year old perfect master' in 1971 when I was 19, and became a 'premie' (that oddly diminutive-sounding term) in 1972 at Montrose Guru Puja. Joined an ashram, went to London, also India (several times), was in Blue Aquarius, landed on the Satpal side of the 'great split' in, what year was it, 1975?, and continued ashramic involvement until about 1988. Have maintained sporadic contact with Bhole Ji and Satpal Ji, and still value the meditation practice to this day.

BTW, I hope to participate from time to time, and wonder how you folks accomplish the italicizing and bolding of text.

My sincerest best wishes to all.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 18:45:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Welcome Carl and thanks for the
Message:

waltz down memory lane. Amazing recall you have and many new details to help flesh out the story we all were part of. I hope you will continue to post and participate.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:29:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Hi Carl
Message:

Hi Carl,

Welcome to the madhouse.

I share a couple of your questions, things that have been bothering me since I left the cult in fact, so if you find out how to do bold and italic in your posts, let me know.

Anth I tried, God knows I tried.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:37:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: bold and italics
Message:

As Francesca said, you can't demonstrate the switches precisely, since doing so in a post so will activate/deactivate those changes instead of displaying the switches.

But imagine the following WITHOUT the underscores between characters.

To switch italics on, do this before the passage in question: <_i_>

To switch italics off: <_/_i>

To switch bold on: <_b_>

To switch bold off: <_/_b>

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:51:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: bold and italics
Message:

Okay Nigel,

I'll give it <_/_i> another try<_/_i>
<_b_> what I like about this is it's so intuitive. <_/_b>

This post only took me 25 minutes.

<_p?b and I don't even know

Anth the <./b?#>

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:25:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel and carl and anth
Subject: bold and italics
Message:

ok second go
this forum is html enabled. the opening code is already present before you type anything in the message box.
so html tags are what you put before and after the portion of your words that you want to embellish. as you can see with nigel's post, the server went right ahead and mistook his examples for real code, and so the tags disappeared when the browser read them.

i don't know if you have ever written any html code, so I'll be simple.
every tag has to be surrounded by, with no spaces left between, what's inside them, and the words they are meant to affect, the so called 'tags'.
on my keyboard, the opening and closing brackets are on the comma and period keys, using the shift key. the opening bracket looks like this:

<

and the closing one like this:

>

.
all html tags go inside a set of these, which the browser 'sees' and takes to be a command to do what the instructions inside the tags indicate. the labels for each command are usually real simple.
i
is for italic.
b
is for bold
u is for underline

think of html commands like doors going successively deeper into a building from the outside. whatever you open, you must close behind you, and you must leave and shut doors behind you in the same order you opened them. you can only go to the center of this place, and then you must turn around and go back out the way you came in, closing the layers as you are done with them.
so you could make something bold by opening the door in front of the word 'bold' with the command before it of the letter b, and enclose b with one left pointing < and one right pointing >
the you would type whatever you wanted to appear in boldface.without leaving a space after, you would signal the conclusion of the command with another set of pointy tags, left and right, and the same command again inside them, BUT
to turn off the command( and shut the door to that chamber) you use the / between the pointy tag left, and the command letter
so a closing tag must have on the other side

this is italic tagging

this is bold tagging

this is underline tagging

let's see if the machine makes sense of this.
if not, I'll be back to explain it another way.

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 01:09:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: OK let's try again
Message:

so, I put a pointy bracket with a b for bold <\b>

well it seems a bit easier.

Anth the pointy bracket having a slash Help how do I turn it off.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:32:18 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: bold and italics-try another way
Message:

the machine didnt do what i thought.
ok. we got this much straight
every html tag must have a

<

and a

>

around it.
to write a set of opening and closing tags, lets say for italics,
take this below, and put those carets in place of the similar brackets surounding the letters:

{i}i want this in italics{/i}

{b} i want this in bold{/b}

{u} i want this underlined{/u}

lets see if the machine does it again.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:47:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: bold and italics-try another way-1 more sneak
Message:

<> I want this in italics<>

<> I want this in bold <>

<> I want this underlined <>

now--if this does what i think it will, you'll see two of everything in the tags. that should foil the browser but leave it plain to your eye.

just use one of each,in the before and after.. take out one right pointing caret, one letter from the left tag and one left pointing caret,then take out one left pointing caret, one letter, one slash, and one right pointing caret from closing tag.
so it comes out looking like this, but using carets, instead of braces:

{i} I want this in italics{/i}

{b} I want this in bold{/b}

{u} i want this underlined{/u}

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:30:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: PS Carl, I enjoyed your post. Thanks. (nt)
Message:

well a bit

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:46:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks from me, too...
Message:

Welcome, Carl. After a first post like that I hope you stick around (looks like you've spent a lot of time lurking anyway, so why not?)

I too am very interested in the Satpal days and Rawat family dynamics. For instance, would Satpal be aware of Prempal's killing a man and fleeing the scene?

And if not, do your think he'd be interested in using said knowledge to his personal advantage, and to his kid brother's detriment? Surely there's a criminal charge that could yet be brought against Maharaji. Isn't/wasn't Satpal a government minister and thus well placed to pull a few strings? Or might the publicity be too personally damaging because of the family connection?

Anyway, thanks again,

Nige the shit-stirrer.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 18:12:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Welcome, Carl, I really enjoyed your first post
Message:

and am looking forward to your continued input. I am sure we're all curious about your Satpal days. But I am also looking forward to just getting to know you.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 17:10:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Carl
Subject: Did you play the trombone?
Message:

I was in Blue Aquarius from the Camp Joan Meier phase forward, through the ugly split. The last band houses I lived in were in Venice and Culver City (with Colleen and Doug, Matt and Raya, and a bunch of others).

Welcome to the discussion. I can't say welcome to the Forum, because you've been reading the posts for quite some time!

If you were on the Bhole Ji/Satpal side then you were in touch with Michael Green, Rick, Helen, Knud Bjorno, Sylvia St. James and a bunch of others way longer than I was, and I would be glad to hear about them. My e-mail address is above so we don't have to chat about that on the Forum.

I am still in touch with Larry Cohen (bass, piano, arranger extraordinaire) and Dick Parke (guitar) [Dick was in during Soul Rush, Millenium, and for a while after that].

As for bold, italics, fonts, etc. -- click on Forum Help at the top of the page, and that should get you there. Once you type in the tags, they are embedded in the post, so I can't show you here.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:37:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you...
Message:

Were you in Indian ashrams until 1988?
Under Satpal's guidance?

I think the US ashrams closed in 1983, that's why I ask.

I would be very interested in knowing more about the Satpal side of things...

What his version of the split was.
How big is his following?
What is his take on maharaji?
Have they ever talked, like at Mata Ji's funeral?
What does Bhole Ji do these days?

Just wondering..thanks for your thoughtful post..

La-ex

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 19:47:23 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you...
Message:

I was in Blue Aquarius at the time of the split, and most all of us were quite loyal to Bhole Ji, who was loyal to Satpal and Mata Ji. It was a very traumatic time, as you can imagine.

At that time we were all staying at Camp Joan Meier (Meyer?), a large, rather nicely maintained, camp for physically handicapped children. Those children were not there; it was no longer being used for that purpose, or maybe we were there only for the off-season, I can't recall. (I was not a honcho.) It had nice great number of cementblock 'cabins', a rehearsal hall, dining hall and kitchen, other apartments for staff and so on. It was near or north of Malibu, and was on Pacific Coast Highway directly across from the ocean. It was actually idyllic, just beautiful: the wooded hills were behind us, the sparkling ocean in front of us. It was a popular spot for surfers, too. Some of us would go down to the beach at night and meditate. Some may have been doing other things, I seem to recall.

I remember the 'night of the guns.' Although I never saw the guns myself, there was a very disturbing night at the split-up time when the whole compound was 'under siege' and Bhole Ji was in, or felt to be in, considerable danger. The DLM heavies were so unpredictable and bizarre, anything could have happened.

Eventually, we set up in Thousand Oaks, CA, and took a number of apartments in an attractive apartment complex. We were pursued there by the DLM heavies, the names of whom I've forgotten, who would come around and try to intimidate, cajole, threaten and entreat us to reconsider our allegience. I distinctly remember Jagdeo also coming there to talk to us, apparently to try to gather us back to the DLM view. We would have none of it. I'm somewhat certain he conducted there no knowledge sessions, children's or otherwise, but he did hold 'satsang'. I do remember what he looked like. Full grey head of hair, handsome lined face, distinguished, glasses I think, nice suit, no saffron robes.

Many of the musicians in the band were mavericks, notoriously anti-authoritarian, and didn't have any patience with the DLM bullshit. A fair number were jazz musicians, or trying to be. We were a thorn in DLM's side: we knew it, they knew it. Economics played a big part of it, I'm sure, because we were Bhole Ji's personal band, and it was gigantic: full brass, woodwind, rhythm and string sections, four or five singers, electricians and audio people, arrangers and copyists, roadies, cooks, a few wives and kids, other hangers-on. And the funding was staggering, I'm sure.

We had some amazing music-making sessions, I must say: Sort of Lawrence Welk on acid, some of it, with some very heartfelt and sensitive song-writing, and plenty kick-ass grooves. We were all over the musical map. There actually was a lot of raw and refined talent expressing itself there.

Our efforts were as much directed toward becoming a viable entertainment-world success as it was in 'serving Guru Maharaj Ji', the one necessarily helping the other. We even had contacts with Quincy Jones, and others, who came to the Camp to audition us, or check us out. We were recording regularly in Hollywood.

We were fortunate to have had in the band several independent and vocal thinkers, who could emotionally position themselves, and sometimes clearly articulate, exactly why the DLM trip was in trouble, and that we were damn lucky to be under Bhole Ji's wing. But basically, the DLMers, the bossy honcho types, the 'suits' were anathema to jazzers and 'creative types'. This is not surprising, 'tis ever been thus.

Remember, this was very early on, ca. 1974, and we had, before all this, been living together in Hollywood at a fabulously seedy old hotel on Hollywood Boulevard, just down the street from (the legendary) Grauman's Chinese Theatre. (That's a whole story in itself.)

But before that, we had been in Houston for the great lift-off, and before that, on 'Soul Rush', a multi-city mainly East Coast concert tour. And before that, the band had formed in London, giving concerts at Hammersmith Odeon, also at the big GM event at Alexander Hall (or Palace?). We had bonded together both with Bhole Ji and amongst ourselves. I have great friendships to this day from those times, and some of whom I've lost track, regrettably. Many of the people in the band were European, lots of Brits, smattering of Germans, Swiss, others. Around this time there were immigration concerns which also threatened the fabric of the band. How, or by whom, were they going be be sponsored?

After a while the band couldn't maintain itself, and we ended up getting regular jobs in and around LA, formed various premie houses in Santa Monica and Venice (CA), and a 'Residence' in Pacific Palisades. Some people drifted away, and life went on. We who remained were informed, felt and understood that Prempal was bonkers for 'falling from the path' and that Satpal was the real keeper of the flame. There had been rumors of unseemly behavior on the part of Prempal (aka Sant Ji) before then, just worrisome scandalized whispers. It may have been excruciating for some to negotiate that switch to Satpal Ji, but for those who were instinctively rebellious to begin with, I don't think it was that bad. To be honest with you, Bhole Ji just seemed a lot hipper and more much fun than anything else happening at the time. It was a wonderful balance in many ways: creative musical work along with meditation and 'spiritual progress'.

A significant figure at the time was Mahatma Satyanand, one of Shri Hans' mahatmas, the oldest or longest serving mahatma. He was a powerful figure, and communicated much and well, even though his accent was very strong. He pretty much made it clear in both practical and cosmic ways that Satpal was Lord, not Prempal. I wish I could dredge up the fine points of his argument, but it was as much his force of personality and personal integrity that compelled belief as it was any logical reasoning.

This much was clear from this particular Mahatma: I never felt or construed anything he said that would lead me to become a blind robot, an automaton of blissful disregard. This was one cranky, genuine and thoughtful guy. He made it very clear that we SHOULD think, carefully, with discernment and for oneself, to test all premises, about anything, from the existence of God to the price of watermelons. In no small way, he helped me, and I believe many others, keep their heads and wits when the DLM would have preferred us to shut down, turn off the lights and become yes men.

Mahatma Satyanand was the farthest thing from a yes man. He would reason and talk and argue just about anything, and when it was REALLY important, he would vociferously present his view, but give you space to make up your own mind. But his reasoning would usually be convincing. Also, he would never cling to a position if it could be shown that he was in error. He invited debate and sometimes got as good as he gave. He never shied away from hard physical work, either. He was up early and out the door digging stumps out of the mud, or clearing land, rototilling a garden, you name it. Didn't seem to have much fondness for Arti and all that routine. Plenty of action. In fact, one of his main concerns was 'the meaning of action' or the 'secret of action': That was where you could learn what your or anyone's character was all about. It is a lesson I still treasure. If you can imagine a short, burly, scrappy and cantankerous, hard-working, trouble-making saffron-robed son-of-a-bitch with a heart of gold and a wicked sense of humor, that was Mahatma Ji.

But I ramble.

To answer your questions:
The new faction eventually moved, i.e., a small remaining core group, to NYC around 1976 with Satpal Ji. He never actually lived there for any permanent length of time, but he definitely wanted a separate presence and fresh beginning in NYC. (India was his main focus, events have shown). That NYC ashram became the basis of another smallish community of faithful, and things proceeded under another name, Spiritual Life Society. There was an Indian version, Manav Dharma, which continues even now. I think it is Manav Dharm Seva Samiti.

There was another relocation to semi-rural New Jersey. That ashram disbanded around 1990 or so, I'm not sure the exact year: I was there until around 1988. But there has always been a few die-hards who've kept the flame, and in any case, a strong Indian community thread which is still active. I would have no way of calculating the numbers of Satpal Ji's followers, although I believe it is more than just a few. Again, the sizable Indian communities in New Jersey, Canada, California and perhaps elsewhere are his strong suit at this time.

As to Bhole Ji's ongoing activities I know little, although I do see him every so often. He does come to the U.S. at least once, maybe twice a year. With all that has happened over the years, some very difficult and wacky years, I still respect him and like him very much as a person. He is unconventional and sometimes hard to 'read', but it would be unnatural not to feel warmly toward someone with whom you've shared some interesting and challenging times. I still touch his feet in the traditional greeting of respect.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:34:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: *** Many Questions Arise, but Best Of!! ***
Message:

Has to be preserved as a testimony of a whole world that us loyal Prempalites knew nothing of.

Of course Satpal is a fraud - we have his pro Prempal speeches - but the politics of this is interesting.

John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:15:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Excellent post, hi, nice to meet you, but ........
Message:

Carl,

How could you continue to respect and follow Satpal like that? I don't get it. He's telling all of us that a) Maharaji's the Lord of the Universe and b) Millenium blah blah blah. Didn't it occur to you that if he could get those two things as woefully wrong as he did, then perhaps the whole Rawat guru thing was a joke?

Anyway, you DID stick with him and that just has to be interesting. How did you then understand and account for Satpal's guruship? And what ABOUT his bizarre predictions? And what, if anything, did he ever say about Prempal and the like? Please, this is all rich, rich terrain.

Great post though. Truly, nice to hear from you.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 21:59:32 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Excellent post, hi, nice to meet you, but ........
Message:

Well, if logic and close reasoning, and a lack of insecurity, and a personal courage not otherwise countenanced in that environment, had prevailed, perhaps there would have been another result.

All in all, I have no regrets. We all came to this, got in, stayed for varying lengths of time, learned much if we wanted to, questioned much (hopefully), and came to some sort of individual accommodation to the baffling events and ideas, and moved on, or stayed in deep, or stepped to one side at various distances.

It seems that most who visit this forum are still sorting it out. I am. Maybe we always will.

Perhaps it it is a natural gradual genetically encoded maturing that brings one to various realizations along with a receding hairline.

No one is perfect, not even the 'perfect master'.

As a musician, I know what happens when you are winging it: Sometimes 'things happen' both incredibly fantastic and lamentable. But you go forward.

Gotta run now, dinner beckons.
Cheers!

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 23:17:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Good ideas and all but you didn't answer my q's
Message:

Sorry, Carl, but I'm asking you something a bit more specific. I know you don't endorse however you thought then but I AM asking what those thoughts were, if you don't mind. How did you put it all together? How did Satpal maintain any credibility being that he was so god-awful wrong about who the Lord of the Universe was and exactly what was going to happen in Houston? That's just such a juicy question to me, I hope you give it some thought. Maybe you can't remember but that'd be so unfortunate.

See, I don't think I'm the only one here who never met any real-life Bal Bhagwan Ji people. It's true, I never did. To tell you the truth, I almost have this instinctive reaction to you as if you're playing for the 'other side' or something. Yes, even after all this, after all that time, all this change, I still had that sense of 'uh oh, it's one of them!' Did you feel that in any way for any of us real premies after you left? [joke!]

And, as well, I really want to know, if you can tell us, how Satpal and Bhole Ji explained Satpal's spiritual authority, when he got it, how and all that. I bet a lot of us are curious about that.

Thanks again,

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 12:35:15 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: will try to answer:
Message:

Some of the thinking may have been (and I am not claiming I remember or understood it very clearly) was that it was Mata Ji who essentially 'made' the Guru; she was the one to know for sure. Also, it was actions and results of actions that prove who is the Satguru, and that that role can pass from someone who is demonstrably corrupt. There were also some specific references (quite forgotten) to certain Indian scriptural prophesies that foretold of a split in the family of Hans, that the two youngest brothers would fall from grace.

If you recall, part of the original thinking, way back at the beginning when this movement first came to the West, was that the holy family were 'all-one'. So it did not seem implausible, then, that if any one of them became bonkers or corrupt, they would need to be excised or denounced from the true living tradition. This was extremely hard on them as a family, whom I believe honestly regarded the dissemination of the knowledge techniques in the purely traditional manner as a sacred trust.

Let's see, what else: I guess it was such a strong sense of emotional commitment to Bhole Ji that made it relatively easy for most of the band folk to align where he aligned. At the same time, from what I remember, Satpal did carry himself with thoughtful gravity and was circumspect, and welcomed discussion in an open way. Of course, he was still treated with the same deference that all the Holy Family were, and one did not disrespectfully 'challenge' any of their authority. Really, respectful love was the basis. Satpal Ji gave satsangs that were intellectually stimulating, scripturally rich and informed, and as contrasted with Sant Ji's (i.e., Prempal's) satsang, quite erudite. I think many people could relate to, and respect him, on that basis alone. But there was always additionally present a great kindness, just personal indefinable simple human warmth from him and from the remaining family, and amongst ourselves, that kept us all together through these troubling times and beyond.

Any group has its level-headed ones, its wise-ass rebels, its humble backgrounders, its clench-jawed fanatics, its ambitious ones, its layabouts and its bongos. In almost all ways we were no different from the regular premie community. The level-headed and loving ones never felt hatred toward the premies who remained with the disgraced Sant Ji. I think most felt a kind of pity. Most people, on both sides, were simply confused and deeptly hurt by the split, and many did indeed just fall away from the whole scene.

But we regrouped. We were still premies. Some worked in NYC in various businesses and tried to live spiritual lives. The Satpal side just seemed to maintain more of the traditional approach, similar to the early 70s ashram days. There wasn't the emphasis on greedy slickness such as was developing at DLM. Rather, it was quite low key, and was focused on the essentials, you remember: satsang, service, meditation. Aiming for balance and understanding.

Also, Jim, everyone: please be patient. I am new to this posting routine, and am learning the ropes. I hope one is not expected to exhaustively answer every question that gets posed. I simply won't be able to spend gobs of time here keeping track and responding to all. I see how for many posters it is apparently all-consuming.

Right now I have a lot of irons in the fire, and can only check in from time to time. In fact, in a few days I will be travelling out of the country, and will be away from email until mid-May.

But golly, it IS gratifying to learn and contribute here. Warm regards to all.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:23:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks so much, Carl -- really 'enlightening'
Message:

Thanks very much for helping to complete a picture that was so obscure for so long. What would really be cool, if and when you ever had the time, would be for you to write a good, long 'Journey' entry, exploring as best possible the process you recall of transferring guru's, etc. This is all pretty fascinating stuff, in a way. I could talk with you on and on and on about it but I respect that you somehow have a life (for now!).

I'm still not clear how Satpal ever got any of you'all to overlook his decidedly foolish Millenium prophecies and the like. Also -- and boy is this going to seem like a funny question -- how did you know, at first, that the conflict wasn't just, gulp, lila?

But, at your convenience. Thanks for this last reply. You can tell what I'm interested in.

Jim

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 16:05:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite??
Message:

Satpal Ji gave satsangs that were intellectually stimulating, scripturally rich and informed, and as contrasted with Sant Ji's (i.e., Prempal's) satsang, quite erudite.

Are you talking about the same Satpal (aka Bal Baghwan Ji)??
Were you heavily drugged when you listened that that idiot? Far from being sophisticated, he was a DORC!

This is the same guy who said that the Pope would receive knowledge, that a comet (Kahoutek) was part of some cosmic event involving the Millennium festival because it stood for 'Houston, Texas,' had some of the screwiest and ignorant scientific theories imaginable, including repeating that crap about sucking animals being carnivores and seeds being dead, and all of us living in a 'Divine City.' He was always throwing in superstitious crap like numerology and word games. Plus, he had the dorkiest glasses in the Western Hemisphere.

No that he's 50 I'm sure he has improved, but come on!

I never actually heard Bohle Ji speak, but I could relate my story about him in which he was picking his nose with a ferocity that was truly frightening, but I shall desist. Plus, his antics at Millennium, and the fact that they are recorded on video, must be sources of monumental embarrassment for poor old Bohle.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 17:31:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite??
Message:

Joe:

I was around for some of the period Michael is talking about, except that I jumped off the Satpal turnip truck in about 1975 or 76 (sorry, fuzzy on the time frame). I kind of faded away, and eventually went back to the premie community, partially because my premie sister and husband were always there for me in a really big way. But before I digress, the Satpal of the wild Millenium days was not the Satpal that came to our tiny apartment living room in Venice and gave satsang. And although he got his measure of respect and Carl is being honest about that, it was nowhere near the way we were supposed to treat M.

I didn't find him warm however -- more incisive, almost cutting like a knife. I think it was a reflection of his intellect somewhat, but possibly his personal energy and dynamism. He and Bhole Ji knew everyone in the band personally, although Bhole Ji was the one we could just hang out with.

Mata Ji had her moments -- I remember her being really cold to me as I set out in another thread. I was going through hell with the family split and was crying while I was doing something at the residence. She apparently thought it was funny and said, 'confused?' with a big smile and told someone to get me some ice cream. Since there was a whole thing about 'confusion' and M that was an in-joke at the time, I thought it rather cold and cynical. Maybe she didn't mean it that way, but suffice to say she certainly was NOT tuned in to where I was coming from.

Another time I was sitting in a car crying instead of going into rehearsal and Satpal said, 'where Frenchie?' (That was a nickname some of the folks in the band used for me.) He noticed that I was missing, but I'm not sure if he followed up and found out why. Eventually I left, because it was another Guru trip.

But here's the sick point. I went back to M because he had given me K, and I hadn't really practiced it enough yet so I didn't feel I could throw it away. I went back to the K session vows and the whole thing. Sick, sick. No wonder the Tibetan Buddhists can't get me to take spiritual vows seriously. Once broken, only jokin'. Spiritual vows are made when someone really wants something they don't know. Otherwise they wouldn't be coming to a teacher or guru in the first place. How can you make vows based on that??

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 21:37:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Informed, intellectually stimulating and erudite??
Message:

Very true about the vows, Francesca. People take such vows as an act of faith, in the hopes that by jumping into the abyss, by believing hard enough, you will get something great, beyond what you could even think about. It's a huge sham. Because most of us were raised to fulfill our committments. Of course, M didn't have to uphold his side of the bargain. We surrendered our lives, but he didn't save us, set us free, make us happy, or give us fulfillment. He never had it to offer in the first place.

It's very interesting all this holy family stuff you were involved in and that you actually considered following BBJ. That is just so far from anything that I ever considered.

Of course, I thought Mata Ji was weird and controlling, that BBJ was pretending to be smart when he wasn't, said stupid things, and only was where he was because of an accident of birth and the fawning premies, and Bohle Ji, well, there was the nose-picking and that embarrassing and humiliating perfromance at Millennium.

With all that, M and Raja Ji looked pretty good by comparison, to me, from where I was sitting, so there was never any question about where my loyalties were. I was quite happy to get all those pictures of unattractive people off the altars. At least M was kinda cute, and Raja Ji didn't look half bad. But those others, yuck!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 01:17:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I did know some Satpalians until 85 and they
Message:

NEVER proselytized. One of them was actually married to a Prempalian and it did not bother him. He was very wealthy and maintained a house in New York for Satpal. They just never seemed as totalitarian or messianic as Prempalians.

Before I forget have a safe and pleasant trip to Costa Rica. I know you will hyave a wonderful time and don't forget to retrace your past lives in the footsteps of Shirley McClain or was that some other jungle?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:14:07 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: would that have been Jimmie LoDato and family?
Message:

Jimmie LoDato was a blue collar salt of the earth entrepreneur who made a million bucks at anything he tried his hand at. He ran away with his sweetheart at 15 after he shot a man. He was a self made millionaire before he came to GMJ and left it to start again with the Alive kitchen on 42nd street, where i cut my teeth on the premie life in 1973. Jimmie gave his long island house over to the Holy Family as their Residence whenever they were in New York. I went out there once for a picnic with Mata Ji in the back yard in the summertime.
I heard after the split that Jimmie provided that house as the official headquarters for Satpal and MataJi's consolidation of their following.
Jimmie let go of the Alive Kitchen about 2 years after its opening and went on to real estate, selling condo's he called Alive condo's and made yet another million at that. He had four sons who were new york street smart and a sweet wife whose name I now forget. Joanie, maybe? Of his sons, I remember Lance and Danny

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 04:21:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No, but the guy I knew was also a self-made
Message:

millionaire and flew his own plane. By the time I met him he was living on a huge piece of land in Mendocino county with another wife (a premie from New York an artist.) He and I hit it off and were going to go into business together buying a fixer-upper apartment building in SF but I found it hard to handle his wife at the time. Never been very patient with artists I'm afraid. He built her a fabulous house on the land with a separate building as her studio. They parted later in the 80s. I think the house he had was in New Jersey and it was for Mata Ji.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:04:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Carl
Subject: You're the first poster to back me up
Message:

Carl:

I have posted about the post millenium days of the band, and I'm sure some folks thought, yeah sure. It's in several old threads here and there. You stayed in it longer than I did. I went back to the premie community in 1976 and ended up in a premie band with Larry Cohen and Dick Parke, among others, called 'Beckon Gently.' And then eventually 4 years in the ashram, 78-80 in LA and 80-82 in San Francisco. I made a few phone calls to the place in New Jersey, many years ago, when I would go home to the east coast.

Donner has told the DLM side of this tale, but no one else from the band or support crew has posted on this stuff. Thanks, and best wishes.

==f

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Date: Thurs, Apr 26, 2001 at 03:23:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: How's my ol' buddy Dick Parke? still with April?
Message:

is he still living in West LA, doing computer stuff? playing guitar anymore?

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 20:52:07 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: very impressive , nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:57:18 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Yes, thanks
Message:

Carl,

Thanks for your kind remarks and I do hope you continue with some input.

My impression, based on very little, was that Bal Bhagwan Ji worked in a government position for many years and did not function as a full-time guru. Then, at some time, he gave up his 'day job' and became a serious 'Perfect Master.' Is that correct?

Your stories about Satpal would be quite interesting to many of us here, I'm sure.

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Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 16:54:37 (GMT)
From: bob
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Thanks and welcome Carl. a question for you...
Message:

knowledge (not Knowledge) dispels all darkness! Information will prevail over secrecy. All real great people did not hold back secrets for a selected few. When do I feel grand? When SHARING, not when hiding. It will be interesting to fit this part of the picture together..

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