Suchabanana -:- m. and EV slip on a bunch of banana skins! -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:33:23 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- A perfect example of how history is bunk -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:39:00 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- yer welcome (nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:31:54 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Oh, Glen Whittaker! ''...born KING of yogis?'' -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:26:39 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- yeah, thought 'twas a curious EV 'translation'(nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:42:29 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Yet another Lord -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ wolfie -:- Yet another Lord -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Lahari Krishna: He alone is Holy! Holy!! Holy!!! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:43:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- How many God incarnates? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:43:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ G -:- their arti -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:26:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- their arti is crappier than ours .. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ such -:- it's like deja vu - oy vey!!!! Leapin' lizards!(nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:48:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill-christ! even now he -:- slams and lies about his mom. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- If Hindus did not cremate corpses the Holy Cow -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:23:26 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:33:23 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: m. and EV slip on a bunch of banana skins!
Message:

Excerpts from m's bio on the EV site:

key sections/sentences/phrases:

'most still hold their memory of him in high regard, while a minority are openly critical and at times scathing about both the man and his message.  [most/minority?]

Maharaji certainly presents something of an enigma. He is not a religious teacher. [not a religious teacher - not a guru? DLM not a church? m. not a minister? no worship or references?]

He says he is an ordinary human being, no different from anybody else, yet his gatherings often trigger a degree of enthusiasm and respect which to a neutral onlooker could justifiably be interpreted as adulation. [says he is an ordinary human/vs. adulation. Da Master/servant ordinary? justifiably interpreted as adulation?]

So just who or what is Maharaji, and does the private individual differ widely from the public face he presents? Truth, it can be said, is subjective... [does the private individual differ widely from the public face?]

he is better known in India as Balyogeshwar which translates 'born king of the yogis.' [born Lord of the yogis?]

At the age of six, he and his siblings were taught the techniques of Knowledge, by their father. As an exuberant six year old, Maharaji said he accepted it because it was given to him rather than pushing for it through any great longing or desire of his own. With time and practice however he became appreciative...

wanting to strip his teaching of all its traditional Indian trappings, he considered dropping 'Maharaji'. [huh?]

It is not a given that the new master emerges from the previous master’s family. Indeed from the tradition that Shri Hans Ji Maharaj came, this is the only time when it has stayed in the family. [Radhasoami and Sikh guru tradition -- and Satpal?]

However the circumstances surrounding how the young Sant-ji became Maharaji are curious. Those close to him at the time said that he had always behaved with a confidence and sense that he was to be the next master, and his father had made it known that it would be his destiny to take this teaching around the world. However his succession was not accepted by some of the leaders of what was now a large and widely recognized organization. [circumstances curious/not accepted]

On the day after the funeral, a large crowd waited in the grounds of Prem Nagar ashram for an announcement to be made on who should be the next master. Meeting in a small room— a meeting from which Maharaji was excluded on grounds of youth— the key people could not make a decision. Meanwhile, the young Maharaji went out to reassure the people who had gathered to mourn their master’s death. This speech apparently moved the people who heard it to tears. In it Maharaji said there should be no weeping, for what the master taught was always with them, and that he for one was ready to take Knowledge forward. And thus the decision was made, not through discussion but through the genuine feeling that Maharaji had evoked in the people present. [the decision made by m.]

The shadow of Shri Maharaji was long, and the young Maharaji was regarded by many as a cipher, a substitute for his father who would teach the same subject in the same way. Not only this, but amongst the public at large there was a general skepticism that would dog him until he had reached maturity. ...claims were made that he was coached in what to say... [general skepticism]
 
The movement which sprang up to promote his teaching faced many ups and downs and misconceptions, some of which impacted on his public image. Added to this he faced the constant glare of publicity which directed attention on him rather than on his message. In his private life however he was settled in his certainty that this was what he wanted to do, and he had very clear views on how he wanted to do it. [movement misconceptions? ups and downs? who has led/directed movement?]

The devout Hindu parent was not happy that her son was attempting to strip the Indian context from his teachings. He was becoming a teenager and, as a teacher, wanted to bring Knowledge to a point where it crossed all cultural boundaries. [strip Indian context? like Master, arti, guru worship, Krishna crown, thrones, meditation tech secrecy/monopoly, darshan, agya, lila, Kabir, etc.?]

At the time the organization promoting his teaching was seen as one of the fastest growing movements of its kind in America, if not the world. Maharaji wanted to concentrate on his teaching but was increasingly required to consider the practical aspects of responding to the growing number of requests from around the world asking him to come and speak. Now added to this he was maintaining a discreet romantic liaison right under the noses of a family that would certainly disapprove of such a relationship on grounds of race and caste. [maintaining discreet romantic liaison[s] right under the noses of a family?]

She accused her youngest son of betraying every tradition she held sacred. She disowned him and returned to India. Once there she helped his elder brother start a separate movement. The strain of this rift with his family took its toll on Maharaji's health. [betraying every sacred tradition?]

However his work continued, as did the process of putting down roots in America. In 1974, when being driven up the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, he saw a dilapidated structure atop an isolated mountain and it caught his eye. The leaking bungalow, built as a weekend retreat by a Hollywood director, was some way off from the celebrated beach-side community. Maharaji was unaware of the prestige of the area, but the beauty of the landscape was breathtaking and gave him a sense of refuge from the very adult responsibilities that he had to face on a daily basis. [walled Malibu hilltop 'dilapidated structure'/'leaking bungalow' with tennis court, pool, gardens, unpaid cult servants! / unaware of the prestige?]

The family still live in the same house, now rebuilt and added to. Maharaji relishes it as his quiet family retreat, when taking a break from his busy schedule of relentless travel and tours. [rebuilt and added added added to]
 
He has often talked of the times when, as a small child, he would hear planes flying overhead and dream of becoming a pilot.

At fourteen, accompanied by an instructor, he took his first flight as a student pilot in a Cessna 172, a small four-seater, single engine plane, and his career as a pilot began in earnest. ['career' as a pilot]

By the age of twenty two, in 1980, he had received a type rating in a Citation II, which is a small business jet, and was also given an instrument rating on the same flight. Most pilots get their first instrument rating in a single engine plane, the Citation is by comparison, a much more demanding and complex plane. [most pilots can't afford it]

What is notable and quite unusual in Maharaji’s track record as a pilot is his achievement of a broad array of type ratings in a relatively short span of time. Maharaji has a natural ability for flying and has made rapid progress through ratings for jets, helicopters and gliders. [who financed this broad array of aircraft, not owned by the non-profit church/organization which solicited the money?]

In 1983, Maharaji was given an Airline Transport Pilot License. One month later he received his type rating for a Boeing 707. By this time, he had also become a qualified helicopter pilot, and was to receive a private license for gliders in 1984. Just under ten years later, Maharaji qualified to fly a Gulfstream IV. [who paid for all these planes? what organization solicited/spent the money? but who actually owns the planes? why the diversion of all church assets to a separate private company controlled by m's inner circle? supports, protects, hides what and whom?]

Maharaji’s passion for flying is led by his commitment to regularly travel the world in order to bring his message to as broad an audience as possible. A jet is leased for this purpose as the schedule is often demanding, and it has proven virtually impossible to conveniently and safely construct it around commercial flight schedules. [impossible on commercial airlines -- like the Dalai Lama or Detroit Pistons or New York Yankees or Britney Spears? jet is leased? but the jet funding was solicited by DLM/EV and purchased for Elan Vital - a non-profit org by premies? why weren't the donors informed that the non-profit org would not be the owner of the jets and other assets generated from the thousands of contributions sent to Elan Vital? if EV were sued by a cult victim and lost bigtime, who would end up controlling All the assets accumulated from the premies' donations? Do any EV statements show zero assets and revenues? Wadahamar revenues? taxes paid by m. for the yacht purchased for the 'owner's' personal use and benefit? reporting of all cash and valuable gifts in the registered church not a religion guru minister worship adulation darshan?]

Elan Vital is fortunate that Maharaji is a qualified pilot and he likes that this arrangement offers him greater flexibility... For him, being a pilot is both a personal pleasure and a practical tool. [a personal pleasure - an ultra-expensive hobby? subsidized by whom?]

Maharaji has never been one to do something because it is the expected thing to do. His successful lifestyle does not fit with general concepts of what a teacher or master should be like. He is very open about the fact that for him there is absolutely no conflict between enjoyment of the things of this world while also pursuing a path of inner fulfillment, provided you are clear about where your priorities lie. For him there is a big distinction between enjoying material comforts and becoming attached to them. However when you take a closer look, he certainly doesn't lead what could be termed a high life. ['successful lifestyle'? 'provided you are clear where your priorities are'! 'big distinction between enjoying material comforts and becoming attached to them' -- ok, prove it! give up all the riches - ALL of it! certainly doesn't lead a 'high life'? $40 million jet, helicopter, $7 million yacht, 28,000 sq ft main residence + others, Rolls Royces Mercedes Ferraris Lamborghinis Aston Martins, gold-plated toilet fixtures, Rolex collection, mistress setup/perks, servants, chauffeur, personal secretary, valet, cook, gardener, Presidential hotel suites, bodyguards, choice pot, cognac, etc.?]

His life has been extraordinary: a childhood that reads like an episode from the notoriously complicated Indian sagas; publicity which both extols and damns him; from a teenage father to a father of teenagers; an artist; a musician; a computer buff; a qualified pilot; a successful businessman; and most of all an inspiring and articulate teacher with tens of thousands of assiduous students across all barriers of race, culture and religion. [a successful guru business man? +/- publicity (by whom?) which both extols and damns him?]

In private he comes across as a shy person though with an outrageous sense of humor. Speak to people who know him well and you find that he is at best a one-of-a-kind visionary, at worst unfathomable. And yet he is eminently practical, as reflected by his grasp of and liking for mechanics, electronics, flying, composing music, and the artistic and technical aspects of producing professional quality materials to promote his teachings. Kind is a description of him that frequently crops up and one insider comments: 'he can be tough, demanding and very focused on the standards he wants to achieve. However even when he’s had to take someone to task he always follows up with a reassurance that mistakes happen not because people are stupid or incapable, just that they have forgotten to be conscious of their actions.' Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.' [eminently practical? explain kind, tough, demanding, mistakes, his involvement in 'producing' the materials which promote him?]

[r.e. the unmentioned miscellaneous little details omitted: vehicular manslaughter + hit and run, aiding and abetting top aide murder assailants, m. cult abuses, gross diversion of immense non-profit donations, revisionism about m's Lord and Perfect Master claims, the rituals, worship, belief system, 'misconceptions', shifting the blame, passing the buck[s]...
---- Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.']

[Does this sound like a genuine spiritual Master to you?]

Well, folks, nobody can truthfully blame us here. Just the facts, ma'am...

[Note: to the general public, aspirants, premies, and their relatives: see for yourselves on this website the detailed documentation of official records and eyewitness top-level insider accounts]

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

 

 

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:39:00 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: A perfect example of how history is bunk
Message:

Or rather, so-called history.

Such! Your post is great. It clearly demonstrates that written history is so slanted, so selective, so spin-doctored as to make one ill with dizziness.

All the scriptures and holy legends are subject to the same thing, the inevitable hidden agenda to propagandize to justify or conceal temporal ambition for power (wealth).

I mean, who was Krishna, really? Rama, Vishnu, et al.? Valmiki and Tulsidas each had a more or less inspired agenda to perpetuate a legend, to 'tell the story', but while the actual scene was unfolding how-many-thousands of years ago, it may have been no more 'spiritual' than a feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys. It's the spin-doctors and apostles that create the inflated rhetoric and momentum, and then human gullibility takes over. Priest-class gets established. Soon it's landgrabbing and sleight-of-hand miracles and centuries of factioning. Same old same old.

Which is not to say there isn't beauty and instructive moral lessons to be learned from such legend-making. Even Aesop teaches much about human nature and the resolving of moral dilemmas. It just ain't history, that's all.

Governments, gurus, corporations . . . who can you trust? Your post reminds me yet again to be extremely skeptical, or at least cautious, of any 'official position' emanating from any organization. As time goes on, it is harder than ever not to be cynical about reportage. It's all about marketing, public relations, and advertising. Propaganda!

Are we expected to just immediately lap it up? Maybe not, but it is through repetition, repetition, repetition that the official position gets established. Weary humans can only absorb so much info, and memory is short in any case. Despots know this very well, and thrive. Which does not mean that an official position is static. Oh no, it can be altered to confront changing conditions. But it will be justified and reinforced with the same or increased vigor. It is all so Orwellian.

Facts, actions, and results simply and accurately reported -- sounds like it should be easy. But I guess there is no 'science of history' to get us to the truth (small 't'), too many competing voices to be the final word. We can only share our stories, and life is only so long.

It seems the essential premie vs expremie argument centers around the familiar conflict between 'higher' spiritual (i.e., inwardly experienced) and feeling-based understanding called 'Truth' and the more 'wordly' scientific (i.e., objectively provable) or historical fact-based understanding called truth. Is there ever any balance between these two world views?

However, one would expect that an Avatar of Truth would have other than contempt for 'worldly', i.e., verifiable, truth. Interesting, no? But I forget: the Satguru is unbounded by mere human expectations, and is, in fact, above all temporal law and responsibility. Who can argue with that paradigm?

And regardless of the lingo -- master/teacher/guru or god -- this imaginary and narcissistic private universe is one that M and his devotees (and many a similar group) desperately need in order to flourish. Blissful co-dependency.

I wouldn't expect him to capitulate nor have a soul-searching change of heart. He is probably completely convinced he is the (or at least 'a') Master 'for this age', as the living exponent of his lineage, family disagreements notwithstanding.

Again, thanks for your vigilant and thoughtful post.

Cheers,
Carl

 

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:31:54 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: yer welcome (nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:26:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Oh, Glen Whittaker! ''...born KING of yogis?''
Message:

Bal = born

Yogi = not the bear or the baseballer.

Eshwar means the lord god ultimate creator big kahuna the boss.

Hindu hyperbole aside it cannot be translated as ''king.''

Nice bit of Orwellian rewriting Mr Whitwash Whittaker.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:42:29 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: yeah, thought 'twas a curious EV 'translation'(nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yet another Lord
Message:

I was doing a web search for 'eshwar' and I came across a web page about yet another Lord, this one needs a fashion consultant.

Lord Lahari Krishna

I tried clicking different parts of the page but nothing happens.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:50 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yet another Lord
Message:

Hi

I have complet faith, that by his infinit grace, Maharaji will clone me so many times, that I can follow all this wonderfull manifastations of the one and only.

wolfie ...drowning in a crowd of holy ones :)

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:43:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Lahari Krishna: He alone is Holy! Holy!! Holy!!!
Message:

I bet he preaches at the breakfast table. What a piously ponderous (but earnest) face. Glad I don't sit opposite him at breakfast every morning. He looks more like a post-master at the local post-office than an avatar of Krishna. How many avatars of the Blue One do we have now? How is this possible? Did thay clone Krishna?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:43:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: How many God incarnates?
Message:

That's what I wondered, how many people are running around claiming to be the one and only God-in-human-form? Of these, how many Krishnas, how many Christs? how many Buddhas?

It reminds me of the game show 'What's My Line?', except this this a bit different. In the game show, there was someone with a certain type of job and two fakes. The contestents ask the three people questions, then they are supposed to guess which one is the real McCoy. Except here, when asked what is your professsion, they say 'God', and when asked

Will the real God-in-a-bod please stand up?

All these fakes stand up.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:26:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: their arti
Message:

I figured out how to get to the other pages: by pressing next at the bottom of each page. Here is the next page, which has their version of arti:

Victory to the Lord of the Universe

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: G
Subject: their arti is crappier than ours ..
Message:

all those thees ,thous , thines : those inferior satgurus are such old fuddy-duddies .

How I hate all this shit ,I believe there's an org in India that goes around shooting some of the more out of order of these bastards . Anyone know if they've got a website .I'd be interested in looking at it .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:48:23 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: G
Subject: it's like deja vu - oy vey!!!! Leapin' lizards!(nt
Message:

Victory to Lord Lahari Krishna, the Lord of the Universe!

'Victory to Lord Lahari Krishna, the Lord of the Universe
Who removes our miseries and bodily pains
Who showers happiness and prosperity
On those who meditate on Him.
 
Thou art our Father and our Mother
We can always find shelter in Thee.
There is none else besides Thee.
Where we can put our faith.
 
You are the Supreme Lord in everyone’s heart.
Master of All and Protector of All
We are fools and ask only for Thy boons.
Have mercy on us, Thou Ocean of Mercy.
 
Unseen by the senses, Thou art the Lord of all souls.
How may dullards like us ever hope to meet with Thee?
Thou art the Friend of the poor.
Thou Remover of our sorrows.
Thou art our Lord and we are at Thy door.
Please extend Thine Hand and lift us up.
 
O Lord, take away our sins and erase our material attachments.
Help us increase our faith and serve the saints.'   

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT)
From: bill-christ! even now he
Email: None
To: such
Subject: slams and lies about his mom.
Message:

In the facts section bananand quotes,

'The devout Hindu parent was not happy that her son was attempting to strip the Indian context from his teachings.'

It is a lie and covers up why she felt he was out of his mind.
Why she felt his behaviour was 'despicable' was NOT because of
some propagation issue.

Even in death he wont leave her alone. He lies about her.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:23:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill-christ! even now he
Subject: If Hindus did not cremate corpses the Holy Cow
Message:

would be spinning in her grave. I wonder how ashes get their tits in a tangle?

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