Abi -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:53:20 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Please forgive me Abi for posting this -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:18 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- Thanks Pat -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Abi. Saw it quite a while ago but hesitated -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:27:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:47:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Abi I posted that so you could see how deranged -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:22:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Oh well... -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:51:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Abi, this is the typical response of ignorance... -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 21:07:37 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I don't think he's a decent man -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:44:51 (GMT)

__ __ Original Richard -:- ATTENTION: 'Richard' in this thread is not me -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:11:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- You are always my original postie! love f----n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:11:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Classic Richard -:- Oh yes, I love it when you call me Postie! /nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:33:58 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Abi, you are being disingenuous -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:37:32 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:33:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I need your legal advice Richard -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 09:19:11 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:16:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ me -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:17:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:13:49 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- FA - enough is enough. Please... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT)

__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Richard - you are the dregs of mankind -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:37:12 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Richard (2) your mind is truly fucking ugly. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:23 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:01:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Admin -:- Use of names on this forum -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Use of this forum -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Courts and police stations -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Courts and police stations -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:19:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- criminal v. civil -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- there's a problem with that, CD -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Gerry. that's reality. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:35:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard 2 -:- Amen!!! nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:01:44 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Richard #2, You Don't Know the Facts... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard 2 -:- The facts seem to be in the eye of the beholder -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:44:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard 2 - The Crux of the Matter.... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:14:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Facts are in the eye of the beholder--yikes!!! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:24:13 (GMT)

__ __ Original Richard -:- Please note: 'Richard' in this thread is not me -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:07:15 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Richard, how dare you! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:54:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:00:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- you are not listening Richard2 -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:00:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- No, you are not listening -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- No, you are deliberately not seeing -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:02:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- You are not listening -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:25:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Time to act the rhetoric -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:12:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Time to act the rhetoric, Thank you Peter n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:49:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- Richard2 re not listening -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:31:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Be Honest Richard2! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:58:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Excellent post Cynthia - best wishes S nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:00:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Response to Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:22:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- Response to Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:04:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Your threats -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- And another thing, Richard 2 -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:42:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Good grief man, - banned for presenting an ... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:13:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Read Richard's post again, cq -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I did, I still stand by my point. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:26:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Right on, cq (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:31:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- GOOD POST and GOOD point cq ---- n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:06:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- For the record, cq, I agree (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:45:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- Read Richard's post again, -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- ATTENTION FA: The ''Richard'' posting in this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:01:37 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Desperate attempts are being made -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:14:44 (GMT)

__ clarence clear -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:18:33 (GMT)

__ __ CD -:- path to a long winding road -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:53:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- re damage -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- re damage -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:52:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- WHAT DAMAGE? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:29:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- WHAT DAMAGE? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:49:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sorry CD, I miss-read your post... -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:28:48 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- I am tired of being branded a hate group too. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:48:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- I don't hate you Richard -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:00:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- I am tired of being branded a hate group too. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:27:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- I am tired of being branded reply to Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:26:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- clarence clear, you're right... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:43:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- re you're right... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:14:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Richard2 is a troll (internet slang) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:01:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- I am tired of being branded reply to Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:10:09 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 14:58:45 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:53:20 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Pathologizing the victims Message:

Dear All, I just went into the 'Charles' site and was shocked and affronted by the patronising and abusive tone taken by this man towards the people who have been damaged by Mr Rawat and his cult. He seems to think that by portraying himself as an upper-middle class legal achiever his claims about EPO and Maharaji have validity. Doesn't he realise that there are a great deal of far more successful people out there in the world who would take less than a minute to recognise that Maharaji is the head of a cult. We have the weight of the worlds public opinion on our side and all EV have are a few, increasingly desperate, attempts to defend themselves. In the Wednesday edition of The Australian there was an article by a producer with 60 Minutes who described how his television team tracked down a pedophile called Dunn who was in hiding in Honduran. Once found he was extradited and is now in prison. Steve Barrett writes: 'Some of Dunn's victims became male prostitutes, some are heroine addicts, some are serving lengthy jail sentences - and some are dead' (p.4). We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. I know that one of them is dead. He was my brother. If we become angry about the abuse of human rights that has gone on in this cult and we speak out against it that doesn't make us pathological. The shame is all theirs. The fact that this apparently decent man 'Charles' remains silent about the Jagdeo issue says it all. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:18 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Please forgive me Abi for posting this Message:

This is a post that appeared on Lifes (sick) Great this morning. I think the exes need to see it to understand what kind of deluded cult thinking is taking place there. Here is the post: Please send this to Abi: Dear Abi, If what you say is true about Jagdeo (and I could believe you) It must be pretty awful and I sincerely understand your feelings. But you see: People go through many awful things in life... and somehow through their strenghts as human beings they overcome these bad things and have a joyful life. People have been raped, tortured, put on the most awful situations for long periods of their lives and they somehow overcome. Problem here Abi is that you are 'used' by the active ex-premies to promote their hatred and confusion. Are they helping you? I doubt it. They are just perpetuating your bad experience. Who suffers: you. They don't. I am moving away from the discussion of who is responsible for what happened to you, and who should be held accountable. As a person you have the power to overcome whatever happened and move away from being the victim. The ex-premies want you and need you to STAY AS A VICTIM. You do not have to oblige. You have a life to live. You are a beautiful human being and you have the power, the right and the strength in you to be and enjoy your life. Do not accept any longer to be their pet victim. Sincerely nino

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks Pat Message:

Pat, I guess I just have to say it very clearly: I am not being exploited or pathologised by EPO. Sweet of Nino to care I suppose. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:27:52 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Thanks Abi. Saw it quite a while ago but hesitated Message:

to repost it here as I felt it was a bit snide and subtly insulting. His crocodile tears might fool himself and other premies.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:47:10 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: all Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist Message:

the warning at the end of this post to NOT post it on FV. A Post by Rachel Cunningham on Lifes (sick) Great: A guy called Richard said this (and a lot more, in a calm, clear, polite manner) to the FV's favorite victim, the woman who seeks not a cure for her ills but vengence. - Naturally he was lynched by the rabid dogs for saying.... 'Your attempt to demonize Maharaji has the collateral effect of funneling hate to all premies. Posts like Abi’s have that effect by pushing emotion-charged buttons in people such as “child abuse”, that they lose perspective and react strictly out of emotion. Incidences of child abuse by an Elan Vital representative were so rare that to harp on it like you guys do completely skews the reality of Maharaji and the people who have served him over the years, some of whom are the most genuine people I’ve ever met. If you really don’t like hate then why don’t you do your part to diffuse it instead of formenting it.' --- Want to see an emotionally charged button? The following is emotional manipulation at a truly vulgar level and is what Richard and many others find so ugly about this 'child abuse' crusade. --- 'We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. I know that one of them is dead. He was my brother.' --- Straight off a National Enquirer cover? Unfortunately not, but FV can be very similar. The exes keep crowing about this woman's 'courage'. It takes a lot more courage to say - THAT is not honesty, THAT is not truth, That is NOT someone seeking justice. It is emotional manipulation and it Stands Out A Mile. And they wonder why Maharaji doesn't arrive on her doorstep with chocolates and roses? --- This post is not intended to insult or enrage the woman in question. We all sympathise with her (them) and yes, the offender will be held accountable. There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes, to uncover not cover up. Patience will pay. ----- WARNING: This post is an attempt to clarify the nature of the ex.premie stance on the subject FOR PREMIES VISITING THIS SITE. If any ferreting ex wants to try and play the big hero by grabbing it and running back to ex.org shouting 'look at this!!' then you must WEAR THE CONSEQUENCES UPON YOUR OWN HEAD. There are unwell and unbalanced people on FV who should NOT be privy to information and opinion such as this. Enough said? I will respect this forum administrator's decision if he deems it necessary to remove this post due to the possible irresponsible behaviour of some people.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:42 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist Message:

Pat, I just SO don't experience anything which Rachel said as sympathy. Her lack of sympathy and her veiled hatred towards me comes across loud and clear. I am 'that woman' etc. I just wonder how Rachel can describe the use of inflamatory words like 'crap' and 'fucking' as polite? Because this is how Richard the Lion Heart addressed me. Charming it is not, ugly it is. I think the term is 'secondary abuse'. It looks like they want to persecute me for speaking out about Jagdeo. Maybe they want to break me so I'll shut up. They'll have to try harder. You see, apart from what happened to me, I have this little problem with pedophiles. Call me neurotic, call be deranged and unwell, but gosh I just can't stand child molesters. And the 'polite' Richard did not even have the courage to answer any of my posts. What a gentleman. Who ARE these people? Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:22:29 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi I posted that so you could see how deranged Message:

this Rachel woman is. Her warning alone shows that she has several sandwiches short of a picnic. However she is not completely typical of premie thinking. I got a long email this morning from another premie saying that your story has made him think twice and he is definitely not going to propagate K until M brings Jagdeo to justice. The saner premies all seem to be upset by your history on Lifes Great. But as I said to Jim - the sane ones will all leave the cult soon and only the diehards and nuts will be left. While they may have doubts about Dettmers they do not doubt you and pedophilia seems to be the trigger. It is obviously something that any decent person just cannot brush under the carpet. I just think you have been very brave to go public with this and to stick to your guns. It will help many to see through the lies and secrecy surrounding Rawat. Thank you.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:51:12 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: Oh well... Message:

Dear Pat, it was pretty upsetting reading that post from Rachel. She has since offered some sort of apology on LG. I really don't think that Jagdeo will ever answer for what he has done though. Apparently he is in India somewhere and we all know what a huge place that is and how easy it is to hide. I just hope that maybe he's poor and sick and tormented and that one day when he's standing by a cliff some young children run past laughing, look at him and see that evil eye of his and feel a sudden urge to push him off the cliff. And I hope he breaks his back and spends a long time dying alone. Yuk! Abi

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 21:07:37 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, this is the typical response of ignorance... Message:

and that's not exclusive to premies. It's called blaming or re-victimizing the victim. Yet I don't perceive you as a carrying out a victim role in your situation. Not at all. You, Susan, and all the others who suffered so much from that horrid abuse deserve credit for surviving. I'm so sorry about your brother, too. Yet, it is quite surreal that some premies, who are supposed to be lovers of love and life and all that is good, have resorted to attacking you. Personally, I will never allow anyone to get away with that here without a response from me. It's beyond my comprehension that someone like Rachael and others have been so mean and cruel. It's denial and ignorance. From my own experience as a survivor of incest and rape I have learned to develop a thick skin about the backlash. But, I never had to deal with it inside/outside of a cult. That's why I consider you and Susan to be heroines in my book. I'm with you all the way, Abi. You can count on me. I'm moving in the next two weeks, so I've been very busy, but I will try to check in here. I validate your anger at this whole mess completely. The good news is that Jagdeo is old and won't be walking around on this planet much longer to hurt others as he hurt you. Please be well, take good care of yourself, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:44:51 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Abi Subject: I don't think he's a decent man Message:

... and I do think it's an affront to you and Susan and the memory of your brother, and every other victim out there. But there you have it. Insensitive followers of a megalomaniac narcissistic guru, who just wants them to have their own lovely experience and forget about everyone else. Who get defensive and sometimes militant when they are asked to take the moral high road and decide whether who they consider the 'source' of this good experience is a worthy object of their adulation, veneration or worship. But I'm preaching to the choir with you -- you only know this type of insensitivity too well. And as far as 'Charles'' worldly credentials, he could have easily made them up, even if he doesn't name the law firm, or the prestigious schools by name, or give us his name. Probably because if he did, he wouldn't have gone to school there, or work there. love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:11:09 (GMT) From: Original Richard Email: None To: all Subject: ATTENTION: 'Richard' in this thread is not me Message:

Later in the thread he posts as Richard2 to avoid being mistaken for me. Richard the original - or perhaps I'll become Classic Richard

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:11:46 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Original Richard Subject: You are always my original postie! love f----n/t Message:

bbb

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:33:58 (GMT) From: Classic Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Oh yes, I love it when you call me Postie! /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:37:32 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, you are being disingenuous Message:

Stop painting all that Maharaji has done and all premies with your sanctimonious victim brush. That is just wrong. That demonstrates a misrepresentation of the real situation, and it shows what kind of character you are really made of. Right now I count 2 people who have stepped forward and claimed abuse by Jagdeo. Okay agreed, there is no excuse for even one case of child abuse, but 2 cases in 30 years does not represent a systemic corruption of the fundamental principles of a man or an organization, like you are representing the situation. Okay Abi you’ve been wronged. So is that your crusade in life now? And so you are willing to ally with a group of spiteful people with their own axes to grind to further your crusade while they use you to further theirs -- which by the way is not to protect the victims of child abuse. The whole thing you’re doing is crap and I don’t care if the whole fucking world sides with you, it is wrong. You are participating in the wrongful demonization of not only Maharaji but all premies, who on the whole are as sincere a group of human beings as you will find.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:33:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ugliness Message:

I don't want to go into all the details AGAIN on this subject. If you want to read them, and I doubt you give a shit, then read ex premie org Jagdeo page about what I have done to report Jagdeo, and what I did in the seventies and no one recalls. It isn't two victims in 30 years. There are other victims who are not willing to post here. Having to deal with ugliness like I have read here today is part of the reason they choose to keep silent. Congrats, you have done a great service Richard. EV knows well of other victims besides us. You can count on it Richard. Maharaji needs to deal with his past.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:48:57 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Susan Subject: Ugliness Message:

Hi Susan, can you believe this stuff? I mean, how low will they sink? They don't care at all about us or the others. All they do is pathologise, minimise, lie and abuse. It took me a long time for it to really sink in that DLM and EV had known about Jagdeo for so long. It was too disgusting to comprehend. It is horrible to think that a survivor of child abuse who is struggling with god knows what sort of awful scars would be intimidated by the ugly verbal abuse from these 'premies' into not speaking out. That sickens me. My therapist thinks these people are pathological. This cult just continues to shock me, it really does. Hope you are OK. Stay strong. Give your boy a hug. love Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Abi Subject: Ugliness Message:

Abi, what do you think someone who has been abused has the right to do for retribution? Anything? Do we stop the world, change the truth behind the universe? I cannot comment on why nothing has been done about your situation or if anything has been done. What is it you want Elan Vital to do? What would make it all better for you? If you want us to stand by idly as you sully inappropriately the good name of someone who for many people has done much good in this world, and denigrate an organization that has grown by the efforts of many sincere people who did so with great integrity, forget it! As a victim you do not have that right, and I for one am willing to call you on that. That is not verbal abuse my dear it is just me asserting my right to speak out against what I see as an inequitable behavior. As I said, I believe your behavior is inappropriate. I wish you all the best in getting past the damage Jagdeo has been done to you. Don’t take this challenge to what you are doing as any disrespect for you. Really.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 09:19:11 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: I need your legal advice Richard Message:

Richard or whoever you are, I am not your 'dear'. I was one of the people who contributed to the growth of the organisation you speak for. Do I have to say this yet again? Are you listening? I do not hate premies. I do not hate you. I do not hate Maharaji. I do NOT like pedophiles. In fact I HATE Jagdeo. What do you suggest Elan Vital do about Jagdeo then? Have you anything constructive to say about this matter at all? As a lawyer what do you think that Elan Vital should do? I would really appreciate your detailed feedback on this. Abigail

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:56 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard Subject: sincerity Message:

Richard, first of all, I did not demonise all premies in my post. I suggest you try and get past your superficial take on everything and think a little deeper. It is probably easy for you to dismiss this site as a hate group. Reactionary positions don't take much thought. I hear endless stories of premies who are exploited and abused within Elan Vital. Their sincerity is exploited through service, through the constant demand to give money. I know premies who have been broken by all of this. From what I hear, Elan Vital is an organisation which doesn't really care very much about people. It is a tightly structured hierarchy with the majority of premies existing at the bottom to provide free labor, money, and whatever else the organisation requires of them. I don't think that the rank and file premies are bad - I just think they are exploited. Recently I watched a premie sell all of her belongings to go to Amaroo. She is a single mother and has hardly anything. It broke my heart. I was once a sincere premie. Most of the people who post here were once sincere premies. I got knowledge when I was thirteen and meditated for two hours a day, went to satsang all the time, did service, organised fund raising. I remember how the premies around me gave so much of their lives. I remember how our devotion was exploited. There is no doubt in my mind that Rawat promoted himself as God. I was there, I lived it. Why kiss his feet at Amaroo and sing Arti? I know what Arti means, I must have sung it, sincerely, a thousand times. If any group of people have been consistently demonised by Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital for the last thirty years it is the 'ex-premies'. The people you attack here were once your brothers and sisters. We are the people who once gave our lives to Maharaji. If this means nothing to you, then so be it. Your sincerity as a premie is undercut by the way you use words like 'crap' and 'fucking'. It demonstrates to me what sort of character you are. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:16:52 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Abi Subject: sincerity Message:

>>Richard, first of all, I did not demonise all premies in my post. I suggest you try and get past your superficial take on everything and think a little deeper. Then you did so unconsciously. You colored Elan Vital and Maharaji as supportive of pedophilia by yours and a couple of others’ examples of abuse. It is not the norm, tolerated, or remotely common place. To imply it was, as you did, is misleading in a very dangerous way. Right now this kind of crap is being aired to a french public who are being lead by a biased press fueled by spiteful, one-sided angle of the story. Tell me, how far is it from your story to a public hatred against all things Knowledge related in France, including premies? When hatred is allowed to fester, people get hurt. >>I hear endless stories of premies who are exploited and abused within Elan Vital. Their sincerity is exploited through service, through the constant demand to give money. I know premies who have been broken by all of this. From what I hear, Elan Vital is an organisation which doesn't really care very much about people. It is a tightly structured hierarchy with the majority of premies existing at the bottom to provide free labor, money, and whatever else the organisation requires of them. “From what you hear” kinda says it all. You don’t know for yourself do you. Have you heard the saying “there are two sides to every story”? Have you taken into account the many people who have a positive story to tell? No, you have done what all ex-premies do. They write those people off as being too “brainwashed” to count. Believe me, you don’t know what you’re talking about. >>I don't think that the rank and file premies are bad - I just think they are exploited. Recently I watched a premie sell all of her belongings to go to Amaroo. She is a single mother and has hardly anything. It broke my heart. Who are you to judge? The hopes and aspirations of another human being is a personal sacred thing that you or I have no right to interfere with. If that is something that makes this woman happy, would you deny her this for the sake of “your” set of values? Remember, you may think he is fake but to me and thousands of others he is not. >>If any group of people have been consistently demonised by Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital for the last thirty years it is the 'ex-premies'. The people you attack here were once your brothers and sisters. We are the people who once gave our lives to Maharaji. If this means nothing to you, then so be it. I’m afraid you’ve it got it backwards Abi. It is you who are attacking me and your once fellow brothers and sisters by using inflammatory incidents to paint all things Knowledge related in a demonic light. And I am not attacking anybody, I am attacking what I see as extremely unconscious behavior. I will attack that kind of behavior whenever I see it, whether it be demonstrated by brother, sister, friend or foe. >>Your sincerity as a premie is undercut by the way you use words like 'crap' and 'fucking'. It demonstrates to me what sort of character you are. Get real Abi! If you think using these words has anything to do with a person’s character perhaps you need a lesson in character building yourself.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:17:18 (GMT) From: me Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: sincerity Message:

Richard2 said 'I am attacking what I see as extremely unconscious behaviour. I will attack that kind of behaviour whenever I see it ,whether it be demonstrated by brother,sister, friend or foe'. It is a pity you weren't there when Jagdeo was demonstrating his form of unconscious behaviour on innocent children.They certainly could have done with a champion like you on their side!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:13:49 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: me Subject: sincerity Message:

Agreed.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Richard Subject: FA - enough is enough. Please... Message:

block this asshole forever. Never mind that 'Richard' (Charles?) has used someone else's alias - that is a minor offence. The bigger offence is not yet in the forum guidelnes. Time to act, maybe? Given the resources of courage and concern for other abuse victims which Abi and Susan must have had to summon to even make Jagdeo's crimes public, and given the kind of mistreatment they have received here from Bjorn (the prurient) and Mr Cerise (the unspeakably vile)... ..well isn't it time they were accorded the basic right to use this forum without fear of being insulted and ridiculed by anonymous cult apologists who know EXACTLY how to kick where it hurts? (And whom to kick). It's not on.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:37:12 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard - you are the dregs of mankind Message:

I don't know how you can write that poison and call yourself a human being. OH I FORGOT YOU'RE NOT A HUMAN BEING - YOU'RE A PREMIE. (Surrender the reins of integrity at the lotus feet of the living LORD...hey you're a GOOD ADVERT FOR THT AREN'T YOU BABE))

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:23 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard (2) your mind is truly fucking ugly. Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:01:58 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard Subject: FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! Message:

You fuckin idiot. How do you sleep at night?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Deborah Subject: FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! Message:

On my back.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:41:14 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Richard Subject: Use of names on this forum Message:

Richard, I am sure you are unaware that there is already a Richard who posts on this forum. I am sure you are aware, from reading the forum guidelines, that it is against forum rules to post under someone else's name. So could you please use a different name such as Richard X or some other meaningful identifier when posting in future. Regarding your post's content, you obviously haven't been reading here very long. A third Jagdeo victim has made contact with Anth (fourth including Abi's brother), so how many victims does it take for EV/DLM to take this seriously? Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Use of this forum Message:

>A third Jagdeo victim has made contact with Anth (fourth including Abi's brother), so how many victims does it take for EV/DLM to take this seriously? Why do people expect EV to do what is the realm of the police? If crimes were committed and people are willing to testify then there are appropriate means to handle this case. A virtual lynch mob is not the answer. If Anth has hard facts and a sincere interest in the case, stop the talk. Do it. CD

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:22:27 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: CD Subject: Courts and police stations Message:

... are not always the first resort. This is not a clear cut 'realm of the police.' It is a short sighted solution to say 'run to the police and/or prove your case against me in a court of law before I'll pay any attention to you.' Sexual harassment is an insidious crime that can hurt people on both sides, and can't always be 'proven.' EV has not even tried to deal with this issue. Allowing EV to have a chance to deal with this and come clean is a gracious act of good faith on any aggrieved person's part. I'm assuming you don't know much about sexual harassment law, and what a difficult area of law it truly is. Many of the people on this forum, on both sides of the fence (ie exes and premies) have a very simplistic view of courts and the law. 'Talk to my lawyer,' is not the solution to all problems. If EV will not deal with this issue, Abi, Susan or anyone else has a right to any forum they choose. A court, the city square, the Internet. She has a right to pursue her remedies any way she chooses. The fact that EV would force an aggrieved premie or former premie to go to the courts rather than deal with the issue within its organization is enough to give many people pause to question the quality of the organization, and the quality of its leader. The EV people are not the only ones to blame. Rawat runs the show. --f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:19:42 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Courts and police stations Message:

Well said, Fran. Agree with every word bar one. When you said 'sexual harrassment', didn't you mean sexual abuse? The former term is potentially ambiguous, suggesting various scenarios from the off-colour joke in the workplace to innapropriate physical contact. The latter is always physical and always damaging.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:42 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Nigel Subject: criminal v. civil Message:

At least in the US, on the criminal side (which I don't know a lot about -- Mr. Heller's the expert there), it's probably sexual abuse, i.e. against Jagdeo. Although by no means an expert myself, I think instinctively on the civil side, because that's where I've always worked. In civil cases, such as against employers or schools, such as US Supreme Court cases like Meritor v. Vinson, for example, where forcible rape by a supervisor was alleged, it was still called a sexual harassment case, i.e. against EV or the school or whatever. Different law for different parties. But point well taken as far as the true nature of the beast without the polite terminologies. bests, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: there's a problem with that, CD Message:

OK, say I have knowledge of a pedophile like Jagdeo, and there are victims willing to testify. What next? Where is Jagdeo? Under whose jurisdiction is he presently residing? Under what jurisdiction will he be tried? What about extradition? Who pays for that? How do we get the right people interested in bringing this man to justice? This is logistically difficult. I just don't see it happening. The best thing we can do is tell the truth about Jagdeo. But I think the victims should be compensated by EV or Mr Rawat himself as the employers responsible for the actions of Jagdeo. That's a no-brainer and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. But then, maybe it has...

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:35:27 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: gerry Subject: thanks Gerry. that's reality. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:01:44 (GMT) From: Richard 2 Email: None To: CD Subject: Amen!!! nt Message:

df

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard #2 Subject: Richard #2, You Don't Know the Facts... Message:

Richard #2, First, if you wish to post here fine, but you must choose another name to distinguish yourself from Richard who's been posting here for a while. Second, you said to Abi: Stop painting all that Maharaji has done and all premies with your sanctimonious victim brush. That is just wrong. That demonstrates a misrepresentation of the real situation, and it shows what kind of character you are really made of. Right now I count 2 people who have stepped forward and claimed abuse by Jagdeo. Okay agreed, there is no excuse for even one case of child abuse, but 2 cases in 30 years does not represent a systemic corruption of the fundamental principles of a man or an organization, like you are representing the situation. Richard #2, Abi is not behaving as a victim, she has survived child sexual abuse by Jagdeo. Susan and Abi are only two of many other victims. Other victims are not emotionally able to come forward right now. Why? Because it is a soul murdering thing to sexually abuse a child, that's why. Mix that in with a cult system such as Maharajism and the scene gets very foul and much more difficult to heal from. Abi has never misrepresented anything about her experiences. Abi and Susan were courageous to publish their stories on this website. Where else can they go? To EV? To Maharaji? They've done that with no satisfactory response or results. Maybe Jagdeo is old now and has given up his perverted activity, but that does not negate what he did to children in the U.S, UK, India, and who knows where else? Abi and Susan's first motivation for going public with this was to ensure that this monster was not free to abuse any more children. Is that self-serving or is it Maharaji who is self-serving by never taking responsibility for his mistakes and faults, some of which are huge. Guru Maharaj Ji and Divine Light Mission, now known as Elan Vital have done nothing but try to cover up the heinous crimes of Jagdeo. Maharaji was well aware of this when these two women reported it. Furthermore, Maharaji is the most unprincipled person I have ever met, and I spent quite a bit of time with him personally. He has done nothing but use and abuse his followers over and over again. He sent Jagdeo out of the country when reports of child abuse came out. Do you call that principled? And what about EV's legal team? What have they done other than ignore this very serious issue and here you come to ''straighten us all out.'' Wrong, Richard #2. Have you read this website? What do you think about Maharaji's womanizing with his female followers who believed he was the Lord, or God Incarnate? Is that not an abuse of power, too? Does a principled man willfully cheat on his wife again and again? What about the hit and run accident in India, reported by Michael Dettmers when Maharaji killed a pedestrian and took off--yes--a hit and run.! Is that virtuous or principled? I don't believe so, and premies would take off their Maharaji- colored glasses would understand this. What about the infamous DECA project where I personally slaved for Maharaji to build a B707 which he never even kept? Hundreds of premies slaved for him at his whim and we were slaves with no OSHA regulations, proper working hours--the whole thing was illegal from the get-go. This caused many people to suffer (to this day) from multiple toxic chemical exposure, physical and emotional exhaustion, and much more. What about his using premies' monies to satisfy his appetite for being wealthy beyond his means? Why does Maharaji need a $7 million yacht? To do propagation? He came to the west with no money to speak of and now he lives in oppulence. It's not the luxury I object to but the way he obtained it and continues to use people to support what you called a principled organization and purpose. Let him get a job or a career other than taking people's money for nothing, then I will accept his riches. No, Richard #2, you don't get to waltz into this forum and accuse Abi of using us exes to ''further her crusade'' as you put it. I know when the truth is being told. I also know a whole lot about pedophiles. Jagdeo is one, and I would guess he has abused hundreds of children of Maharaji's ''lovers'' while they trusted Maharaji to protect all of us from so-called ''maya.'' How would you feel if it were YOUR child who was abused? Maharaji continues to keep silent about a pedophile in his organization who has traveled throughout the world probably abusing countless innocent children. Maharaji is a coward because Jagdeo continues to be part of his ''organization,'' and is completely under his control. This is beyond my comprehension and beyond any level of the most basic human decency. It doesn't matter how long ago the abuse happened. In fact, usually when these crimes are committed against children, it isn't until victims/survivors reach their 30's that the healing process starts to begin. The double whammy here is a trusted ''Great Soul'' took children in dark rooms and hurt them badly. Worse, their parents trusted a very untrustworthy agent of Maharaji, and Maharaji himself. Maharaji has done nothing for these people, except to tell them they can breath, so they are alive! Richard #2, we know we are alive and don't need Maharaji to breath or even use techniques. I don't hate Maharaji. I don't hate premies, either. I have a close relative who is a premie. I am just beyond tired of his con, his lies, his undeserved wealth and his megalomania. Have you ever tried to doubt his sincerity? Try it, you may like it! As exes we have been freed from the bonds of his cult and are here to help others to exit the Maharajism cult and to discuss whatever we want here. What are you doing? Have you tried to write to Maharaji about this? I would guess no. So you come here, where you won't be censored (unless you become abusive) Never mind about contacting Maharaji or EV, he never answers to anyone but his own mind and ego. Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:44:15 (GMT) From: Richard 2 Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The facts seem to be in the eye of the beholder Message:

Cynthia you have a massive chip on your shoulder and it comes through loud and clear. Neither you or Michael Dettmers or anyone else is in a position to judge Maharaji, just as he is not in a position to judge you. What happened between him and his wife is between him and his wife. And if these female premies who you accuse him of abusing were truly abused, which one of them has stood up and said so? You spent time around Maharaji and saw abuse, others have spent time with him and saw only kindness. Who is right? You? As premies we were given the opportunity to support him and I did so happily. As far as I’m concerned he was free to use my financial support however he saw fit. That’s called “no strings attached”. I remember when the yacht was purchased. Only people who had already expressed a desire to support him personally were approached. There was nothing shady about it. If you didn’t want to give that was your choice. So who are you to begrudge those of us who chose to do so? And I resent you saying he used “premies’ monies”. Whatever monies I personally gave to him became his monies. He never took a dime from me in an underhanded fashion. As for my time, it has been my pleasure to serve, as I am sure it was yours at one time. I certainly would not consider it “slave labor”. If you now look back and negate any pleasure you got from serving, that’s your loss, but realize yours wasn’t a universal sentiment. As for Jagdeo, I don’t know what is the holdup in addressing this -- I suspect it is a legal catch 22.Even so, as I said, those incidents do not color all of the good and virtuous things Maharaji has done. And most certainly neither does how he has handled his marriage or how he has chosen to spend his money.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:14:59 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard 2 Subject: Richard 2 - The Crux of the Matter.... Message:

Richard 2, Whether or not I have a ''chip'' on my shoulder is immaterial to the fact that you refuse to question Maharaji, his close associates, EV, and the many other companies which support him. You said: Neither you or Michael Dettmers or anyone else is in a position to judge Maharaji, just as he is not in a position to judge you. Richard 2, my question to you is why do you believe that no one is in a position to ''judge'' him? Is he infallible? Do you believe he is the Lord? Have you adopted the common thinking process (magical thinking) which is common in any cult that one never can judge the leader? You can come back with an insult such as my having a chip on my shoulder--so what? What's it to you? Does it alter your life with Maharaji? What is the need to protect him if he is beyond judgment? You refuse to answer these questions, and you obviously haven't read the EPO site. I believe you are afraid to give up your magical thinking system which has been ingrained into you since long before you took your knowledge vows. This is a dangerous way to live. And you're missing out on a hell of a lot of enjoyment by restricting yourself to him and him alone. You miss the point. Michael Dettmers was commissioned personally by Maharaji to find blonde premies for him to fuck. There is a distinct power imbalance between a premie woman (probably young) and someone who has placed himself in such a position of power, i.e., Lord of the Universe. Why is that mine to judge? Because I happened to be blonde and I don't like the fact that Maharaji was using his female followers who had a mindset at a time these things occurred, that he was their lord. That is an abuse of power in and of itself. But you don't get it. Then he just dropped them like so much shit. That's why I get to judge him. The proof? The testimony of Michael Dettmers who spent many, many years as his personal advisor. Why do I believe him over Maharaji? Because I was in a position to see how much Maharaji lies to get what he wants. But I don't expect you at this juncture to be able to think. When I was in the ashram I completely dedicated my life to him. When I needed him the most he was not there for me. Yet I always jumped at his command. He does not answer correspondence, and I don't know why. Personally, I think he is a real creep. He always complains about not getting enough ''gratitude'' for what he claims is the ''life he gave us.'' Well, what about gratitude to the premies and ex-premies who have slaved for him? Everything about DECA was illegal. I was there, I experienced it. I know ''experience'' is a key cult speak in Maharajism. If Maharaji were a real man he would never have done what he did to the premies at DECA during the 707 project. I was there through the whole thing. You were not around during the 70s. You were obviously not around during the DECA project. I was. I broke the law for him--serious violations which he was fully aware of. He had premies break the law for him countless times over during that project and I was there, I participated, and witnessed it, but I dared not question him. Why? Because I was in a cult and one ever questions the fucking the lord of the universe, that's why. And that's why you can do no more than insult people here who were innocent victims, such as Abi. You are starting to give me the creeps. I gave Maharaji everything I had and more. What help did he give me? He told me I was the worst of the worst. He told me I didn't even have a right to even talk to Maharaji or even look at Maharaji. He told me if I ever left him I would go crazy or trun into rotten vegetables. Of course, he gets away with this type of ''speak'' because he's never questioned. Why? Because he doesn't allow it, or he loses his temper like a 2 year old child in an adult body. How do I know this? Because I WAS THERE! Well, Richard 2, now we exes are questioning him. Too bad if you don't like it, but that's the way the world spins. Last time I looked we still have freedom of speech. You don't because you choose not to. I may seem to have a chip on my shoulder, but you couldn't be more wrong. I have been very happy since I left Maharaji and now because of the crimes committed against Abi, Susan, and countless other innocent children, as well as the many other crimes he has commited in the ''name of Perfect Master'' I won't stop speaking out against the outrageous way in which he has persisted in conducting himself. I don't pity him. I don't hate him. I just want him to stop being a conman and a liar. I want him to answer for his agent, Jagdeo. You, on the other hand, must protect him or else your entire believe system which Maharaji has implanted into you is at great risk. You are afraid because he has made you afraid and you don't even know it. It's obvious you are yet another premie who is so pissed off that EPO has received some publicity, and poor goomraji has been so inconvenienced (and I'm sure enraged about the France incidents) that you feel empowered to justify your accusations toward Abi by your brainwashed self within the cult. Educate yourself. Believe me, I didn't just jump ship, as goomraji would put it. It took me 25 years to rid myself of his insidious influence upon my life. Maybe you're a lifer. So be it, but don't come here blaming a survivor of child sexual abuse for Maharaji's problems. The problems Maharaji has were created by one person: Maharaji. He's a grown man now. Why all these websites about a so-called hate group? Because you are in a cult, Richard 2, that's why. Until you can wrap your brainwashed mind around that, you will be lost. He's a megalomaniac, a narcissistic brat, and a thief of lives. Chip on my shoulder? Shit no. I'm just very angry at Maharaji for stealing the prime of my life so he can live in luxury with no consideration whatsoever for the people who pay for his tab. What he has done in the past 30 years is horrendous, insidious and pretty stupid. He's not a very smart fraud. I won't be answering anymore of your posts. It's obvious to me you can't have a logical, rational, or thoughtful conversation because you are programmed, Richard 2, that means brainwashed. And leave Abi out of this, please. How dare you attack someone who was sexually abused by a Mahatma of your Guru Maharaj Ji? Have you no shame? Have you no moral backbone? Or are you like your master, a coward? No more responses from me pal. You're a brick wall with a guru up your ass. And if you think that Maharaji doesn't judge people, especially premies, you couldn't be more wrong. Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard 2 Subject: Facts are in the eye of the beholder--yikes!!! Message:

Who are you? And what have you done with Richard 2?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:24:13 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Richard Subject: Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse Message:

Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse just keep silent about it? Is that your advice? Surely, the first step in attempting to protect potential victims of child abuse is to inform people that there is an abuser in their midst. And to this day, Maharaji has done NOTHING about the fact that Jagdeo is still at large. And you side with the Maha on this one?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:07:15 (GMT) From: Original Richard Email: None To: Richard Subject: Please note: 'Richard' in this thread is not me Message:

The person posting as 'Richard' is not the Richard who has posted here for the last half year or so. That's me. So, Newcomer Richard, please choose another screen name to avoid confusion. Thank you. Original Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:54:18 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard, how dare you! Message:

Richard, Who are you? If you are going to offer Abi or anyone else such unsolicited advice, then you should identify yourself. How could you possibly have the right to speak to Abi in that manner? Your post is pure crap. You should be banned.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:00:21 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Way Subject: Relax Way! Message:

My post is in response to using these few incidents of child abuse to color the entire demeanor of Elan Vital and Maharaji. It is misrepresentation to the point of falsification. And yes, if Abi chooses to misrepresent the body of Maharaji’s work by these few incidents, horrible as they are, she is wrong. She is not wrong in demanding an accounting for the incidents, but she is wrong in characterizing Maharaji and premies in the sordid light that she has done. Such talk creates an impression of premies in the mind of the public that is totally wrong and harmful. As I said to clarence, if you are against hate then diffuse it, don’t promote it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:00:56 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: you are not listening Richard2 Message:

You are constantly focusing on Abi using what you call these few incidents of child abuse. You do not seem to have listened to the wider picture which has been presented to you by various people, nor have you responded to any of us apart from to Way and even then to have another pop at Abi. Cynthia for one has written a lengthy post outlining many more issues. You make it sound like as you say 'a few issues of child abuse' are a couple of parking offences. We are talking of extremely serious crimes here.You accuse me of hate what you are doing is hateful and as I said before cruel.Why are you accusing Abi of presenting Maharaji in a sordid light when she is simply saying how she feels about an unbalanced site, why not all of us if that is what you really think. I do not know personally about the issues which have been put forward, but I do know about my own experience which has led me to understand that I was wrong to believe in Maharaji.Why are you so worried about the impression of premies 'such talk' presents to the public. Is EV so fragile that it cannot withstand criticism. As I said before if it is so wonderful it will stand on it's merits. The proof of the pudding etc.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: No, you are not listening Message:

Abi’s post paints a picture of systemic child abuse in Elan Vital being left unchecked, and being supported by anyone who is part of the organization. That is dangerous rhetoric, and contrary to your statement, not just harmless criticism. I for one have taken pride in my involvement with Elan Vital and have tried to exercise my duties in a responsible way with the utmost integrity. This is a common standard throughout Elan Vital. So I resent you supporting a broad-brushed attack on my character by posts like Abi’s. And I don’t care if you all think of her as some kind of saint for having been a victim, she’s not. If she hides behind her victim status to falsely characterize the people I know and love as anything less than what they are, I won’t stand for it.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:02:27 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: No, you are deliberately not seeing Message:

as a matter of fact, 'EV and DLM DID tacitly allow Jagdeo to do exactly what he did, unchecked, to force unwanted sex on unknown numbers of children, while he was traveling freely, in venerated status as a mahatma around the world. Randy Prouty was told and he carried the message to Maharaji in the 70's. Judy Osborne was told and she took the second message to Maharaji and was told he' was relieved it was not a new incident'. BUt Jagdeo continued to live his priveleged role the same as ever.Maharaji did nothing to stop it. He gave no orders about it, he did not demote jagdeo, as he did with other mahatmas who had sex with premies, or broke his rules in any other way. You are lying to yourself about EV and maharaji. You are systematically stonewalling yourself not to call a this for what it is. EV lies. They lie for maharaji. Maharaji lies. There is no integrity there. Its all a deception.Self deception and deception to others. We know this. EV is premies, and we are old time premies too. We know from the inside what we did, what we thought, what we were told, how it worked. You can't lie to us about our lives. We lived them. We were there. We know what the lies are. The FAQ's on the EV website are lies, about our past. We have the old publications that maharaji wanted destroyed. we have our memories and our shared references. we refuse to live the deception any more. and we refuse to ignore you guys when you go on trying to feed it to us, each other and new people. your protest, of the people you decry, that you know in EV reminds me of a jethro tull song I used to sing, years ago: 'hello you straitlaced lady...dressed in white, but your shoes aren't clean...painted them up with polish, in the hopes we won't see where you've been.. EV is that lady, dressed in white with shoes unclean. fussing and putting on a great show of being proper, diverting, minimizing, trying to distract, all to cover the filth of what they've done before. no effort made to right the wrongs, to confess the truth, to integrate what was, with what is. just collude and cover up and hide and deny and lie. like it never happened. but it did, baby. we're the living proof that it did. there is nothing noble or virtuous about maharaji, and because EV lives to further his appetites, there is nothing virtuous about them, either. We are the only thing virtuous that has ever come out of maharaji and EV so far, and they are battling us tooth and nail not to blow it wide open. the french magazine is acting in completely responsible journalism. What they learned in the course of their investigation is being duly and officially handed over to the government authorities, and you can count on it to be fully pursued with all the intent of a world class nation. This is no tabloid rag that undertook this challenge. Maharaji has operated for three decades as a criminal, deliberately in purposeful breaking of the law in every nation he has set foot in, and we who were told to carry out, aid, abet, support and collude in his crimes are determined to put an end to it. that is what constitutes integrity. you don't have it. you haven't got the strength to take the step yet. a word of advice: do it voluntarily--before they come for you. It's a whole lot more clean and honorable to step out for your own reasons, than it is to be caught and prosecuted and punished, for continuing in it, once you know what you're a part of.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:25:59 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: You are not listening Message:

I can't believe you are saying Abi hides behind a victim role. That is not true at all. Have you any idea what it means to be abused sexually at any age but as a child? I am sorry for you Richard2 you seem to have no clue and no kindness. Where is that kindness that your people talk about, hah? I know I've been in a cult. No matter what you or anybody says I know what I know and I feel what I feel and so does Abi and many, many more people who participate in this forum. May you find kindness, you seem to have none. You come across as a cruel sob. Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:12:57 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Time to act the rhetoric Message:

Dear Richard2, If your values and morals and the love you feel for other serving premies is worth what you feel it is, then please do something about these allegations from your side of the fence. Are you going to check out in a real way how these allegations have been treated. If you aren't then shut up and piss off because your vaunted values aren't worth anything. All arguments aside re:MJ - simply find out what you can do to clear the air from your side not get some of the victims to shut up. That is not their job. Usually it is the job of a victim to move out from under their victim role and be able to confront their abuser - which in this case is Jagdeo and by default because of lack of serious attntion MJ. What are you going to do about it - you love him, you love your fellow premies, you love the organisation - do something to prove it. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:49:00 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Time to act the rhetoric, Thank you Peter n/t Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:31:51 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Richard2 re not listening Message:

I take your point about not everyone in EV supporting child abuse. Has anyone said they did? That does not excuse your vicious attack on Abi.You talk of responsibility and integrity in your work with EV. How about applying the same to your dealings with another human being? Resent me all you like if it makes you feel better. I do not see Abi as a saint or as hiding behind her victim status. I see her as brave to talk publicly aboput this awful crime. As I have said several times now she was speaking about an unbalanced site. If you see that as an attack on you then that is your problem.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:58:47 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Be Honest Richard2! Message:

Richard2 said: My post is in response to using these few incidents of child abuse to color the entire demeanor of Elan Vital and Maharaji. It is misrepresentation to the point of falsification. And yes, if Abi chooses to misrepresent the body of Maharaji’s work by these few incidents, horrible as they are, she is wrong. She is not wrong in demanding an accounting for the incidents, but she is wrong in characterizing Maharaji and premies in the sordid light that she has done. Such talk creates an impression of premies in the mind of the public that is totally wrong and harmful. As I said to clarence, if you are against hate then diffuse it, don’t promote it. Cynthia Responds: You are trivializing child sexual abuse, especially in the context of it happening in a cult. Richard2, the basic premise of this website and forum is that we have concluded that Maharaji/EV IS a cult and we have exited it. It is not just about Jagdeo. Abi's courage as well as her anger about what was done to her as a child has been fully validated by those of us here who know her. Maharaji has been dishonest to those of us who gave up our entire lives and possessions some 25+ years ago with the intention of dedicating ourselves to him for life. He changed his mind and left many ashram premies homeless, to personally carry the debt of those ashrams, and to fend for themselves, after a period of intense devotion to Maharaji when he demanded we give up our lives for him, including marriages, children and extended family. Maharaji is dishonest. Period. This website is not just about the Jagdeo issues. Maharaji doesn't have a ''body of work.'' He is nothing more than a freeloader who teaches the techniques incorrectly and he has lived off of the premies since he arrived in the western world, i.e., US and Europe. Perhaps when he was a child guru he could be excused for mistakes. But he is all grown up now and still abuses premies (read Michael Dettmers and Michael Donners reports of being X-rated, etc.). Maharaji victimizes people who come to him under his false pretenses. This has become very clear to those of us who have learned to use our minds and logic. As I posted before, which you did not respond to, what do you think about a person who claims to be GOD incarnate and then revises his history? Did you go to the Amaroo Event? Did you kiss his feet? You see, you are involved in a personality cult. That means that Maharaji uses fear and coercion once an aspirant has been fully programmed, in order to accept Maharaji as a Master for life. No honest teacher in the real world asks this of a student. You are purposely touching a tender nerve here by your persistence in attacking Abi. She doesn't even post here very much since Maharaji met with her father who is a premie. Her mother also posted here in full support of Abi, and the ex-premies are also in full support of Abi. Yet, the Jagdeo issue is not the only problem we have with Maharaji. I don't need to give you personal details of my life with Maharaji, but I can tell you that to become involved with Maharaji means that 1) One cannot question him or his mistakes; 2) One must obey his rules and orders, however subtle they are in the year 2001; 3) He teaches the meditation techniques incorrectly; and 4) He and his organization (EV) are harmful to anyone's emotional and physical health and well-being. You are attacking the wrong person here, Richard. There is no broad brush being painted about Maharaji because we are people who use to be premies too, don't forget. I loved Maharaji more than you can know. He betrayed me. You refuse to answer any questions and engage in rational conversation because your purpose is to attack Abi, rather than using your mind to look clearly at what you have become involved with: a personality cult. All of our experiences of being in the Maharajism cult culminate in quite a bit of individual true testimony about what it is like to become programmed (brainwashed) into believing Maharaji is the Supreme Power in Person, Greater than God. It's a slippery slope to be in that cult, Richard. My personal experience while being around Maharaji is that he is a tyrant, a selfish brat, and someone who doesn't want to work for a living. It's a family business that started long before Maharaji was even born. In order to gain an understanding of what EPO is about, you must read the web pages. Then come back and criticize if you want. If you read more of the site other than Forum 5, you may gain a better understanding that we as exes are not hateful people. We are just regular folk who now understand that we got involved with someone who isn't truthful about himself, his life, or his ability to teach anything. When you look at it from a logical point of view, Maharaji isn't even qualified to be a yoga teacher, much less a teacher of any kind. There is nothing ''special'' about Maharaji that can't be shaken off by the real truth about him and his organization (which is pretty shifty, IMHO). He is no more special than you or I. That's the point. We don't hate premies. We just get frustrated when premies come here to dismiss anything we have to say as being ''hateful.'' Now that's a broad brush! ''EPO is a hate site'' is the new wave of Maharaji's underhanded way of protecting himself from the real truth about himself. Did you know he's been an alcoholic since age 13? How can someone like that bring peace to you when he doesn't even have a handle on his own life? Try to start using your mind. You weren't born with a mind to NOT use it. That's the beginning of realizing what Maharaji is actually doing to people. If you are afraid to address the questions people here ask of you and persist in attacking Abi, you will get no where on this forum. You need to THINK, Richard. We are not just blobs of light, music, nectar, and holy name. In fact if you look up some of the posts about the way Maharaji teaches the meditation techniques, you will find he is teaching them ass-backwards. I do hope you quit attacking Abi. You have no right to do that here or anywhere else. Of all the people who post here, Abi and Susan are the absolutely wrong people to attack. Abi is one of the most intelligent women I have ever known. Her situation is one of many others that we exes would like Maharaji to explain. Yet he remains silent and allows his premies to be blamed for his mistakes, but takes credit for any ''good'' feelings that premies may feel. We're human beings, not robots chained to a guru. Take a look at the hate you are spewing upon us because you have some compulsion or desire to ''protect'' your guru. Why? Isn't he the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE? Why do you feel compelled to protect someone in whom you place so much faith and trust? Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:00:39 (GMT) From: Steve M Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Excellent post Cynthia - best wishes S nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:22:16 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Response to Relax Way! Message:

Richard 2, Well, I see you have the decency to use a new name, as you have been requested to do. And the Forum Administrator here feels that you should not be banned. So of course I will defer to his/her opinion, since he/she is the one doing that job. But I feel that if you are a real man, you will apologize to Abi for calling her a sanctimonious victim and saying that all she is doing is crap. What would you think of Mr. Rawat if he called Abi a sanctimonious victim? Don't you realize you have no business insulting Abi like that on his behalf. If we were doing this in person, with Abi present, you would not have gotten away with your statements. I, for one, would have insisted you leave. And if I were the FA, you would be banned here for life.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:04:15 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Way Subject: Response to Relax Way! Message:

Abi is using her victim status in a disingenuous way. She is using it to paint a false picture of Maharaji and the people who support him. In the process premies are demonized. Just because she has been a victim doesn’t excuse her from acting responsibly. No, I don’t question her courage in demanding accountability for Jagdeo but she has crossed a line. And believe me Way, if you and I were in the same room and you, Abi, or anyone else fomented hate toward me and the people I care about the fur would definitely fly.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:16:03 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Your threats Message:

Dear Charles/Richard or whoever you are, explain why you think I have crossed the line and why you think I am not responsible. Also, what do you mean when you say that the fur would fly if I was in a room with you. Would you attack me? Physically? Or verbally? You are starting to sound very threatening. Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:42:05 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Way Subject: And another thing, Richard 2 Message:

Richard 2, Abi's father is still a premie. He met with Rawat during Amaroo this year. How do you think Abi's father would feel about you if he read how you have spoken to her? I think you are wrong to direct your anger at exes toward Abi. Her posts here have been quite moderate, and her post above is a fair expression of her opinion. Go ahead and argue the issues, if you want, but try to have some common human decency while you are doing it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:13:45 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: Good grief man, - banned for presenting an ... Message:

... alternative viewpoint? Way, you might disagree with Richard. You might even dissaprove of him confronting Abi with a viewpoint that she doesn't share. But wanting him banned for expressing it? Huh??? Couldn't it be that Abi might become stronger by recognising, assimilating and then dealing with different viewpoints? Trying to silence the critics - wasn't that the Maha's way?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:32:27 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: cq Subject: Read Richard's post again, cq Message:

Nobody has the right to tell Abi that what she is doing about her rapist is 'all crap.' That is not just an alternative viewpoint. That is a slap in her face. I, for one, will not put up with it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:26:15 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: I did, I still stand by my point. Message:

If the ex-premie.org Forum ('all and everything about Maharaji') bars premies for saying how they see it (NOT, mind you, for spamming or trolling or generally trying to disrupt communication) then it goes against its published purpose. I think this Richard's (who is NOT Richard Rogers who has posted here before) attitude needs dealing with. There may be many premies who follow his lead. Banning a spokesman of a commonly-held attitude is not only undemocratic, it only furthers accusations of unfair treatment. If the Maha doesn't have enough understanding of the workings of democracy to allow premies AND ex-premies a forum where free speech is allowed to address the allegations that are put by BOTH sides, I think ex-premie.org should PRIDE itself on being one of the few sites where debate is not only allowed, but ENCOURAGED. The censorship of opposing views de rigeur (i.e. censoring them simply BECAUSE they challenge the commonly held opinion of those who usually post here) is not a viable option, IMO. If someone has something to say that is intended to make a point, and is not just an exercise in 'winding up the opposition' - then I think they should be free to say it - here. And free to deal with the consequences. Without censorship. However unpalatable their opinion might be.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:31:33 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: cq Subject: Right on, cq (nt) Message:

Great point. Be big.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:06:45 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: cq Subject: GOOD POST and GOOD point cq ---- n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:45:59 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: cq Subject: For the record, cq, I agree (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:48 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Way Subject: Read Richard's post again, Message:

I don't know if Richard who seems to have disappeared now, has posted here before. He could have replied to any of the posts but seems to have picked on someone who is working through something extremely difficult and traumatic and attacked them viciously. I don't know what sort of person does that, it does not equate with someone who is supposedly experiencing the wonderful gift of knowledge. He did have a go at me but was nowhere near as abusive as he was to Abi. He is well out of order.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:01:37 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Way Subject: ATTENTION FA: The ''Richard'' posting in this Message:

thread is obviously NOT Richard Rogers. Could you please request that he use another name to avoid confusion?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:14:44 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Abi Subject: Desperate attempts are being made Message:

Desperate attempts are being made to counteract what ex-premies are saying. I think that pic of Maharaji on Charles's site is enough to show people that it's some weird cult. His boasting about his achievements is a real turn off too. The links to Deborah's posts are a masterpiece though. This guy's gone to a lot of effort. The only trouble is, human nature being what it is, it will only increase the interest in the ex-premie sites. It's like free advertising for ex-premies. Anyone who reads his site can see that it's an extremely reactionary piece of work. ''What's he reacting to?'' people will think, ''Why is he so het up?''. And then they'll look for the ex-premie sites to hear it from the horse's mouth. He should get his HTML right as well. The last time I looked, the link to Maharaji's website was incorrect.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:18:33 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Abi Subject: Pathologizing the victims Message:

Dear Abi Iwas very moved by your post. As I said in my last post I get tired of this hate group label. How dare he write this reactionary crap ignoring the real damage that has been done. He is obviously running scared. If people are experiencing this marvellous gift of knowledge, and if rawat is as great as he is meant to be, there would surely be no need for all this reaction to exes. Surely it would stand on it's own merits. Pathologising is a very useful tool which has been used by the powerful throughout history in many areas. Mental health is one that springs to mind. Charles says exes are drug abusers and people with mental health problems. See what I mean. Best wishes Clarence

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:53:15 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: path to a long winding road Message:

>As I said in my last post I get tired of this hate group label. This whole site and people who post should not be branded as a hate group. Yet, there certainly has been a lot of hatred expressed on these web pages. Issues are picked and become the focus of attention. Certainly there may be an issue with Jagadeo. But there is a hell of a lot more to the whole M story on all sides than the alleged misdeeds of a single man. There are honest, intelligent people who have benefited from what M has taught them. This is in no way a one sided clear cut story. >How dare he write this reactionary crap ignoring the real damage that has been done. How dare you write reactionary crap ignoring the whole story. What is your personal story? What is the damage that has been done? CD

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:15 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: CD Subject: re damage Message:

Cynthia has already answered your post about what damage has been done. It isn't only the child abuse issue there are many others. You can read about them on the site. I am not going to get into a debate with you or Richard about my personal story. I think it would be futile.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:52:04 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: re damage Message:

>It isn't only the child abuse issue there are many others. The world has many chile abuse issues. Certainly. What does that have to do with YOUR damage?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:29:00 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: CD Subject: WHAT DAMAGE? Message:

Are you brain dead? The innocent children of premies, the followers of Guru Maharaj Ji, were sexually assaulted by an agent of him. What Damage? Are you nuts? Go to the library, easier, go to Prevent Child Abuse America, (easy to find) and look up some documentation about the life-damaging affects of child sexual abuse. If you are clueless about what happens to a child when they are sexually abused, then you have no place in this conversation.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:49:46 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: WHAT DAMAGE? Message:

>Are you brain dead? >The innocent children of premies, the followers of Guru Maharaj Ji, were sexually assaulted by an agent of him. >What Damage? Are you nuts? This happened to you? This happened to Clarence Clear? What are you talking about?

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:28:48 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: CD Subject: Sorry CD, I miss-read your post... Message:

entitled 'path to a long and winding road' That's all, my mistake Best, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:48:30 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: I am tired of being branded a hate group too. Message:

Your attempt to demonize Maharaji has the collateral effect of funneling hate to all premies. Posts like Abi’s have that effect by pushing emotion-charged buttons in people such as “child abuse”, that they lose perspective and react strictly out of emotion. Incidences of child abuse by an Elan Vital representative were so rare that to harp on it like you guys do completely skews the reality of Maharaji and the people who have served him over the years, some of whom are the most genuine people I’ve ever met. If you really don’t like hate then why don’t you do your part to diffuse it instead of fomenting it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:00:13 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard Subject: I don't hate you Richard Message:

Dear Premie, I just hope that one day when you have calmed down enough you will realise that I don't hate you and all premies. My father is a premie etc, etc. I'm still not clear about what you meant when you said that fur would fly if you were in a room with me. I gather you experience strong negative emotions towards me. I feel hated. Thanks for that. How charming. But I refuse to hate you in return or to hate all premies because of how you conduct yourself. Take care, Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:27:12 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Richard Subject: I am tired of being branded a hate group too. Message:

I for one would feel fine if she did hate. I think it is a reasonable, but unfortunate, response to what happened to her and others. My experience with childen that have been abused is that initially the family looks for other reasons, or explanations for what happened. If, lets say, it is a parent then generally the parent is believed over the child. This leads to the child being ostracised and kept out of the family. So the abuse occurs and then the child is essentially kicked out of the family or if they do nothing has to live the fear and ongoing abuse. Now what often happens, lets say the parent is convicted and jailed but still maintains innocence, and the family is still supporting them against the 'wicked hateful child' - if they are able to get into an offenders program their first job is to admit guilt. So naturally enough not everyone goes on offenders programs but usually parole is contingent upon attending one of these programs. And some of these programs are tough - whether or not they 'cure' anyone they are tough. So now this parent admits that they abused the child - low and behold all the family that was supporting the parent now switches to the child and the parent is demonised as indeed is appropriate. So don't be critical of Abi's blame and anger - I'm sorry you have to live with it - her's and other's complaints were not taken seriously and this is one consequence. Now the fact they were not taken seriously is a product of MJ and the social fabric of the premie culture of which many of us here and other that are still premies contributed - but the largest contributer to that cultuire was MJ. You may not like being blamed but it is a reasonable response. And lets get real - premies wren't so god-damned pure - who are you kidding? Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:26:07 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Richard Subject: I am tired of being branded reply to Richard Message:

I said in my last post you seemed cruel to Abi. I have just read your post again. You were cruel. Anyway what is your problem. I said why all this reactionary stuff if rawat and knowledge or so good they can stand on their own, and shouldn't need all this reaction to what we are saying. If it is so wonderful why not just get on with it and enjoy it? M can stick up for himself he is in a position of power. Goodbye.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:43:06 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: clarence clear, you're right... Message:

Hi clarence, You are absolutely right. To re-victimize a person (Abi) who has been so badly abused is cruel, very cruel. To chastise her for dealing with the trauma is even more cruel. These backlash websites coming online is a very positive sign, IMO, because if there wasn't something terribly wrong with the Maharajism cult, there would be absoltuely no need for these response sites. It is sad that all these premies have to say is that EPO is a ''hate group.'' That is so far from the real truth it is almost, almost laughable. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:14:58 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: re you're right... Message:

Hi Cynthia Your post was exellent that all needed saying but will he read it? What is infuriating is that Richard comes here is incredibly abusive to Abi, then leaves either to lurk and see what the reaction is, or legs it back to his blissful state of practising premie, no doubt believing that he has done a good thing for Rawat. He had a go at me I responded but nothing back from him. All this is just making the whole thing look more ludicrous. I remember some premies in the 70's who would have a go at people who they percieved to be non practising premies, they would wade in and have no idea at all what a person might be going through and then leave. I remember people including myself being severely traumatised by this. Well I do hope Richard has read the responses to his post and has the courage to face up to his actions. Best wishes Clarence

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:01:33 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: Richard2 is a troll (internet slang) Message:

Hi Clarence - For further information about trolls, please go to www.trollalert.com, and read. It might help you feel better and less frustrated - it usually helps me. (I might ask J-M to put it on his link list!). Take care - Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:10:09 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Richard Subject: I am tired of being branded reply to Richard Message:

I wasn't aware of any intention on my part to demonise anybody. I do not hate any premies. One of my best friends is a premie, and I know many others who I like and respect. I do not hate Maharaji. I was talking about a person who has set up a very unbalanced website. You talk of posts like Abi's pushing emotion buttons whch make people react by emotion and lose perspective. This is exactly what I am saying has been done on the site hosted by Charles. He has picked posts from this exes site to promote exactly that reaction. I do not understand why expressing how you feel makes you part of a hate group. Your post to Abi seemed very cruel, and your minimising the child abuse because only two people have come forward is inexcusable. That aside I have my own reasons for becoming an ex and coming to this site, which are unrelated to the child abuse issue.I have no desire to discuss them with you.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 14:58:45 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Abi Subject: Pathologizing the victims Message:

Hi Abi, All I want to say is you are right girl...people that were abused turn to same behaviour or addictive behaviour to assuage the intolerable reality of the abuse. And the cult people are in denial so the react to us as a way to perpetuate the denial what a vicious cycle. Lots of love for you, nice to hear from you.. Mercedes ;)

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