Jim -:- Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Hmm, By golly, I 'recognise' those feelings. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:35:46 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Brilliant! you did it again Jim -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:03:51 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Brilliant! you did it again Jim -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Knowledge = paint stripper? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:15:25 (GMT)

__ MK -:- THAT SUBJECT HEADER SUMS UP YOUR POST PERFECTLY! -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:43:14 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Are you cerise?----------nt -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:32:32 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- Serious question, MK. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ MK -:- Serious answer KH. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, MK -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Bold question -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:02:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hint about using HTML on the forum -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:10:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Thank you * -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Stop shouting and explain, please, MK... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:58:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ MK -:- maybe Jim was the bloody Pharoah in Egypt I slaved -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Bonus question for you, MK -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:49:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ MK -:- That's a good one, and I agree... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:00:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Weird -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:05:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- A 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:09:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So is Maharaji God? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Yes -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:55:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- My cat too... -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:18:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- My cat too...but not my neighbour! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:21:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Rawat claims to be Super Duper -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:49:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:28:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- What? Where, Why, When, and with whom? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:39:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Don't you have to have a body to have hands? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:53:20 (GMT)

__ bill-My reccomedation to -:- any ex with a program near them. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:34:49 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- any ex with a program near them....For sure? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:51:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill-Yes they will and I -:- volunteer to be the contact person...nt -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 02:37:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Bill - out of the frying pan and into the fire? -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:44:21 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:07:57 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Paint -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:08:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- a post from bob from below -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)

Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong
Message:

Hamster report on ELK:

24 June 2001

'This is all I have ever done: tell people that there is something real in this fake world.' This is how Maharaji described his life's work on the opening night of the Rome event.Is that really ALL you've ever done? Your brother teaches 'Knowledge' too. Indeed, he does so a lot more like your father did. You know, the one you claim was your master? Yeah, Satpal's all over that shit. So tell me, is all of that 'fake' too? He's talking about the very same thing you are. Fake or real? Why?

The elegant setting of Rome's Cavalieri Hilton was a world apart from last weekend's Anniversary Celebration in the bleak drabness of Nottingham's National Ice Centre. England's cold, windy days had been replaced with bright Italian sunshine.

But Maharaji was as ever teaching us in his own inimitable way about how to approach life.

Rome was actually the first western city he visited. En route for London 30 years ago, his Qantas flight touched down in the Eternal City before heading to his destination, London.

What is so remarkable about him as that although he says this is all he has ever done, he manages to approach the subject of Knowledge in a ever expanding myriad of illuminating ways.If Maharaji doesn't sound like a cult leader, you sure as hell sound like a cult member, whoever you are. Just can't quite find the words to say how special he is, can you? Naw, I didn't think so. It's hard to praise someone as perfect as He is, I'd imagine. Why, his every glance is so full of magic. Yet, how could anyone but a fellow cult member ever really get it? Tough huh?

Tonight he started on a theme, which reflected the changes of the last 30 years rather than the changeless, although both were intertwined. He said he had received an email from someone who told him that ten minutes after 'I have practised I am all over the place.'

He acknowledged how easily this can happen and added: 'I started to think that it is a question of recognition. If I recognise what is real then maybe I can plot a course - take the necessary steps - to make sure I don't get lost.' Oh no! The worst thing that can happen here is beginning to take place. The Hamster has found another word to destroy! This time it's 'recognition'. Forget you ever thought you knew that word. It's time for the new age hindu love god rubber babble dance.

Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

'We are very good with conceptual realisation; we are very good with conceptual recognition... It is so easy for people to create what they want to create and then to start believing it. That is conceptual realisation.

'Do we recognise what it is to be alive or do we only recognise what it is convenient to realise and recognise?'

But no matter what, he explained: 'Magic, divinity, grace is all the while coming and touching us' again and again. Well that's a relief! You mean I don't have to wrap my mind around that bullshit you just uttered about 'conceptual realization', 'conceptual recognition'? You mean the magic, grace and, yes, divinity -- that's like in 'God' or something, isn't it? -- is even now, as you speak, touching me? You mean that God himself is touching me while you speak? Okayyyyyyyyyy, I get it. Wow! Cool, huh? Oh my god! This is like, wow, this is like too fucking much! Yeah, I can feel it alright. Just keep talking a bit. I think I've got it!

'Your existence is taking shape every day. You know about your mortality, yet you continue to think you are immortal.'

Wow, heavYYYYYYYY! You went straight from feel-good magic to the fact that I'm gonna die and, despite your loving efforts over the years, that simply hasn't sunk in yet. Gulp!

Because of this he stressed that it was important that we recognise the opportunity that exists today - not tomorrow.

He then delivered two reality checks: first that the future knows nothing about us and secondly that the past has already forgotten about us. We might know of the past and imagine the future, but they do not acknowledge us.I love the way you anthropomorphize everything and its mother, Master. Why don't you talk about the fact that the hall itself will forget us or, at the very least, play hard to get. And fuck that past, huh? After all we did for it, it never calls, never writes. Yeah, you're right, it's just you and me, Maharaji. Who else can I trust when you put it all so clearly like this? Goddam fucking past, turning it's back like that!

'Precariously, you walk on a thin rope. There is not much elbow room and not much room for error,' he said. Oh no! What can I do? Where can I go? The past has forgotten me and the future won't take my calls! And here I stand ... I can barely move my elbows!

THE RECOGNITION OF BREATH
But he continued by adding that it should be 'very easy for the living to recognise the importance of breath. You would turn blue without it... nothing would function. And you would think that this would be a simple recognition, but all the concepts and ideas come in between.It IS a simple recognition. It's what's called a trite recognition, you idiot! But fuck you if you think I'm going to start worshipping my involuntary muscles. What about my heart? Keeps pumping, pumping, pumping. It's enough to make me cry out in bliss and recognition -- naw, that won't work. Could you imagine going to buy something in the store, the clerk takes your credit card but, instead of running it, she just stands there going off about how neat it is that her heart is pumping? 'Here, feel it,' she grabs your hand and puts it between her breasts. She's that eighty-five year old little Chinese woman whose family runs the corner grocery. You want to get back home, you're in the middle of cooking dinner. 'Nice,' you say 'Sure is beating away there. Mine too.' You're just trying to get away but that doesn't work.

'Oh really? Let me feel,' she says. Meanwhile, there are three people behind you trying to buy their stuff and get out of there.

No, bodily functions, involuntary muscles and all that -- hey, don't get me wrong. They're great. But fuck you if you think I'm going to worship them.

'And then there is the simple way of Knowledge with no pretenses, no discussions. You either welcome it into you life or you don't...

'Knowledge makes no statement about what we must do...'

He then embarked on a lovely analogy comparing the practice of Knowledge to a bee gathering nectar from flowers.

'How much nectar can one tiny little bee take?' he asked.
Good point, guru. I can see where premies like nagual rain get their deep wisdom now. Took me a moment but it's pretty clear now. You're a fucking idiot is what's clear.

BEE HERE NOW
Then, back to the email he received - 'If you can keep your head straight for 10 minutes that's good. But go for another second, that's what the bee does.'

'In this life we have to become like the bees, every breath we take is like a flower that it is opening up' to give us nectar.

'When you recognise this potential, can you tell me that this is not enlightenment, that this is not 100 per cent liberation, that it is not salvation? Can you tell me that this isn't real freedom?'HOLD ON THERE! YOU'RE ASKING US? You're supposed to be the guru and now you're asking US? Isn't that a bit like that old Moody Blues song where the guy goes to the top of the mountain and sees the guru who tells him that 'Life is like a beanstock, isn't it?' I'm sorry, I thought YOU knew where this was all going? And now you're asking us?

Well, if you must know, I'd say no. Appreciating your each and every breath like a village idiot is not my idea of a good time and it sure isn't enlightenment. Forget about '100 per cent liberation' or 'salvation'. You've got to be kidding. Tell me you're kidding, guru. You're kidding, right?

Doubt, he explained, was something we have always done. 'You are expert doubters.'

'But when,' he asked, 'are you going to forget the doubts and accept this beautiful, gorgeous reality.' Translate: your doubts are unanswerable. Therefore, can we do something else now? Please?

There is a 'gross miscommunication' - we know how to want, but we don't know what we want. What kind of whack rubber talk is that? The only 'gross communication' here is what you're doing to the english language, fella.

He said he would make no apology for declaring that until we start admiring what is real and not everything else, we would understand nothing. Hey, that's pretty extreme, big guy! Not to mention downright mean and insulting. You tlak to all your cule members this way? I'm surprised they don't just up and walk out on you. What's that? They do? Hm, well, serves you right. Quit whining and learn how to get along better with people. Until you do, you'll understand nothing.

Those who want to know how to gather the beauty of this breath in their lives, should come to the master with a heart that is real, a heart that is pure, he explained. They should not be driven by curiosity or doubt. Ah yes, the classic cult choice: either you're sincere or you've got questions. Cn you imagine Maharaji as a car salesman? Not like this, I can't.

The trouble is 'so much of what you do is to overcome doubt, and the doubt keeps growing. So come to the world of certainty...'The doubt keeps growing ... hm, wonder why, huh? Could it be because you don't make any sense and now, for the first time, you've finally told us that not only do you not really know what enlightenment is but, even worse, you think it's nothing but going ga ga over your breath? Yeah, the doubt keeps growing. The certainty you're offering is just a futile plan to avoid dealing with it.

IN STORMY WEATHER
'We pretend that we know that which we don't know,' he advised. And then gave the example of being in a little boat when a storm comes. The storm makes the water rough, so it is not the boat itself that creates the sensation of roughness.

'You have to find the place where the water is not rough. Take the boat that is tossing you around, take it into calm waters.

'Don't blame the boat, when it is poor navigation.'Yawn! ....yawn .....sorry, I've heard this....yawn, shake ... maybe go outside to stretch my legs .. no, I guess that's not on, is it? Sneak glance at watch, think about flight home ...

Maharaji then explained what real rather than conceptual recognition is. He told the story of Krishna giving Arjuna Knowledge in the Bhagavad Gita, and how Arjuna's heart was so deeply touched. He said to Krishna: 'Forgive me. I had no idea who you were...'

'The day that I can turn to myself and I say that I forgive myself for not realising what I have been given, when I have recognised Knowledge in that way, then doubt will go,' Maharaji concluded.You asshole! You come THIS FUCKING CLOSE to blaming everyone for not recognizing you're whatever it was Arjuna didn't recognize Krishna was -- God, of course. Like, duh! -- and yet you say, at the same time, that we fostered and perpetuated the myth that are divine. Here, you're pretty well coming right out and saying it but no, pity the poor premie who dots the 'i' or finishes the sentence. Creep!

'Then you'll be bad news for doubt. Confusion will stay as far away from you as it can.'

He had one other statement for which he said he would make no apology: 'If your heart is not content, you will never be at peace.' Wow! That's a real show-stopper! Good thing I DIDN'T sneak out for that fresh air. Where'd you learn to say such things? This is like a miracle or something! That was VERY, VERY impressive, guru. Too fucking much the way you thought that up.

The mind and the heart beat different drums. If you try to dance to both a the same time you will look like an idiot. Funny, you should say that because, quite frankly, I agree. Tell that to Pia, though, will you?

'Dance with no reservation to the beat of the drum of the heart. Be fulfilled every single day. First listen to the beat, then don't be shy, feel the gratitude, feel the elation. When the rhythm is in you, the rhythm has penetrated you. It is swinging in you and you are swinging with it.'

'This would make a long email,' he said with a smile, reminding us of the ten minute dilemma. Hey, that's novel! Maharaji usually rambles on so aimlessly, it's kind of like a trick when he actually returns that rare occasion to the 'point' he started making way back when. Of course, normal people are expected to do that whenver they talk to thousands of people sitting in rapt attention for hours on end. But gurus and other cult leaders just meander like motherfuckers. So this, then, was a real treat. Must have shocked everyone.

INCREDIBLE MISUNDERSTANDING
He likened the predicament of us sitting around 'watching the world go round' to the days when people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. That he said was an 'incredible misunderstanding', because 'the world is watching you go by...'More inane anthropomorphizing. So now it's the world that's laughing at us.

'The consciousness that you have, use it to be conscious of this existence... because it brings a joy unparalleled.'

The European events had been beautiful. He mentioned how many new people had come in Lisbon and Barcelona. And Paris? How as that, guru ji? Hm?

Coming together to make a difference is not an issue, he said. There is always a demand for Knowledge.

'Where we fall short is coming together to make an effort... People who have Knowledge are too smart... Everyone goes off into a discussion... But the objective of making Knowledge available to those who want it is greater than the sum of your differences.WARNING: YOU MAY BE TOO SMART TO UNDERSTAND THIS SENTENCE If you know that then everything is possible. If you understand that, anything is possible.' Yes, I agree. If you can understand that particular sentence, then surely anything is possible. Let's see now: 'The objective of making Knowledge available to those who want it is greater than the sum of your differences'. Sorry, I give up. Guess I'm too smart or something.

'Knowledge is like a flower, it offers a possibility to a little bee. There is no contract. Is there a name written on a flower?Okay, enough already! You're not going to anthropomorphize the poor little flowers and bees too, are you? That's harsh, man! It is a possibility not a contract. It should be made possible for anyone who wants it. If you don't want it, that is not an issue.' What if I used to follow you and think you lied about everything and thus took advantage me and my friends for years? Is THAT an issue? Yeah, that's what I thought.

'The breeze will gladly come through your little window,' he said, explaining that the breeze is actually the result of the huge forces of nature - the rotation of the planet, the pull of the ocean. 'It is nothing trivial.'OH NO!!!!!NOW IT'S THE BREEZE! LISTEN, YOU IDIOT, THE BREEZE IS NOT GLADLYDOING ANYTHING! Stop that!

'All you have to do is open your little window. That's a pretty good deal.

'I too, in my life, want to open that window, because I too want the beautiful breeze blowing to take away all that is stale, and to bring the new fragrance of fresh air.'

He finished by offering the chance to help make the possibilities happen - 'not in philosophies but in unity'.Rubber talk!

'This has nothing to do with Italy; it is about the world.'

Then it was over, unbelievably he had talked for just over 70 minutes...Did you come? Can't get enough of this shit, can you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:35:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Hmm, By golly, I 'recognise' those feelings.
Message:

Does M 'recognise' the full implications of what he's saying, here?

More important do long-term PWKs realise the implications ?

If M’s 70 minutes of instruction add up to a handful of beans, it is to make one point only:

…that the hour’s meditation you completed just ten minutes ago, premie ji, is in the past, and of no bloody use to you, now. The past has washed its hands of you and you are now up shit creek without a paddle, because your mind has come back in and would ere yet rob you of that recognition. (I thought ‘clarity’ was the new ‘realisation’. Seems like ‘recognition’ is now conceptual substitute of the month.)

…that your twenty-seven years’ devotional satsang, service and meditation have no accumulative effect whatsoever, because, in the present moment, you have lost that focus and the best you can hope to do is hang in there for a second or two longer and try to recognise you are breathing. (Think of yourself as a lovely little bee trying to get a drop more nectar…. There. Did that work?)

…all those trans-world trips you scrimped and saved for last year to be at the Master’s feet? Those automatic credit-card transactions…? - All in the past, and of no further use to man, dog or guru! You might as well have been an ex-premie for all the blessings your former devotions confer upon the here and now.

I deeply sympathise with Humpty’s email correspondent. I remember only too well those ten-minutes-after-meditation sensations, battling to stop the real world and its necessary scripts and thought processes from swamping out my lovingly-nurtured inner-glow - how fragile that left you feeling; how unable to function as either normal human being OR semi-realised soul. As regular life goes on around you, you become this helplessly introspective shadow on the wall, constantly monitoring the imaginary conflict between your inner workings of ‘mind’ and ‘heart’. Ugly, ugly, ugly…

(BTW: Another fine post, Jim.)

- Nige

the Unrecognised Soul

 

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:03:51 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brilliant! you did it again Jim
Message:

You dissected this shit down to the smallest denominator and once again so aptly exposed the dysfunctional premise that holds together this crappy racket that Rotgut runs.

Its the carrot at the end of the stick trick revisited only worse. Many of the unsuspecting souls whom have placed all of their confidence and vision in this charlatan under the guise of finding truth may spend an entire life meandering right along the false path and words of this spiritual conman. Sorry disillusioned unquestioning robots that they choose to be.

Was it John Lennon who said 'you can get it wrong and still believe that its all right'? How true it is when it comes to the brainwashing one gets when they buy in to this shit cult. Look once, Its the Lord, look again no, I am a servant, wait a minute, no I am the master. You are not in a cult, but you can kiss my feet and tithe me your money anyway. This is not a religion, but oh by the way, it is divine and spiritual; wink wink, and the word religion is actually derived from realization, and realizing this knowledge is the ultimate purpose of this life, wink wink, but no this is not a religion. Rubber talk......

Who in the fuck can continually hide behind the facade, hypocrisy and falsehoods continually perpetrated by Rotgut and the cult and never stop to wonder what is wrong with this picture?

Once one steps into the rubber room with blubber at the controls, all that rubber talk and logic, although wrong suddenly seems right. Just buying into another fucking concept, Pinheads can't get enough of this Shit.

You are so right Jim, this is wrong, and it can't be worked out any other way. There is no room for negotiation when it comes to opening this thing up and exposing the facts about the snowjob scam that Rotgut has been getting away with all of these years.

Thanks for the enlightenment

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:37:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brilliant! you did it again Jim
Message:

Was it John Lennon who said 'you can get it wrong and still believe that its all right'?

No, it was Paul MacCartney, but we get your point...;)

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:15:25 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knowledge = paint stripper?
Message:

Nice job of carrying on a 'conversation with M' Jim - you are on a roll dude. Though you didn't pounce on it, I especially liked the way M suggests that Knowledge is some sort of cosmic paint stripper. Just put a bit on a hanky, now breathe in, hold it, now breathe out . . . aaahhhhh. . . and all those nagging fake world doubts are gone away.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:43:14 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THAT SUBJECT HEADER SUMS UP YOUR POST PERFECTLY!
Message:

TO THE LETTER!

Come on Jimbo, you know it makes no sense whatsoever. Have some respect for your readers. And stop wasting your time.

best,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:32:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Are you cerise?----------nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Serious question, MK.
Message:

Actually, I thought Jim's post was funny (I can remember thinking things like that 'in my mind' when listening to M.) But what really floored me was the NON-content and rambling nature of the quoted portions of Maharaji's discourse. (I am assuming they quoted the highlights, too - can't imagine what the whole talk was like.)

MK, Do you get anything out of hearing these talks by M ? THey seem to me to be a mixed up jumble of analogies and truisms. I guess he does remind people that 'what they are looking for is within them', as Jerry said, but I can't imagine sitting through 70 minutes of this kind of verbiage.

Seriously, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Serious answer KH.
Message:

You're right Katie, Jim's post was clever and very funny. I was being a petulant old lady. Didn't think the caps would stand out like that in the subject box. I wasn't shouting but laughing and I think Jim was smart enough to notice. He answered in a spirit of humour and with a good question.

Talking of subject headers, I don't know how to make letters 'bold' on this site rather than caps. How does one do this?

Do I get anything out of M's talks? Well, you know you have to be there to grok the whole deal of an event with M, more happens without the words than with. Watching videos, like you and Jim said, mr mind's bored shitless and picks out all the weak spots and 'gets' M every now and then when he does a fast u turn or they do a crap edit. Sometimes it's astonishing, he'll begin a story, have you spellbound, then zoom off in another direction, and you sit there going 'hey wait man!'
But I go through the same mental gymnastics watching TV.
With M I feel an affection and sometimes he's incredibly funny and frank. Other times I sit there arguing with him but mostly find he's a good hour of fun. Each event is different in it's own little way. I generally leave the programs feeling closer to myself in a private sense and warm publicly.
best,
MK

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Thanks, MK
Message:

To each his own, I guess. I really had trouble listening to Maharaji even when I was a premie (I am more visual than auditory - maybe taking notes would have helped - snicker!) I used to just meditate and figure I was getting the 'benefit' even if I couldn't listen to him. In fact, when I watched some videos a year or so ago, I found myself meditating while he was speaking - guess it's an automatic trigger now.

You're correct that most of the videos are boring - I really do not see how people can watch them.

Anyway, thanks for the honest answer.
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:02:04 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: MK
Subject: Bold question
Message:

Talking of subject headers, I don't know how to make letters 'bold' on this site rather than caps. How does one do this?

Check out the link to Forum Help. It's explained there.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:10:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Hint about using HTML on the forum
Message:

Unless you have absolute confidence in your ability to close your HTML, PREVIEW your posts. It really helps :) - and you don't have to yell for the FA to 'fix' your post.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you *
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:58:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Stop shouting and explain, please, MK...
Message:

'..superstitious and wrong'?

Please clarify, MK.

Jim.. ('Jimbo', is it? - sounds like you two go way back?) ..knows WHAT makes sense?

You certainly don't.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: maybe Jim was the bloody Pharoah in Egypt I slaved
Message:

for all those long desert days and nights! yes, we go back a long way alright. He was a hard and brutal man...but..and..also...

I was being a goof Nigel and I think Jim took me on face value.
That's what's fun about cyberspace. It doesan't have to be a struggle. I explained a bit to Katie above.
stay well,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:49:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Bonus question for you, MK
Message:

Seeing as you seem to need bite-size posts, here's a simple question for you. Maharaji also said this last week:

You come into the world empty-handed, and you were going to leave empty-handed, but I am going to give you a way so that you don't have to leave empty-handed.

He's recently said that he doesn't know anything about reincarnation, what happens after you die, etc. So tell me, MK, what the fuck is he talking about?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:00:59 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's a good one, and I agree...
Message:

That's better.
I don't like it when the premier poster of FV doesn't kick butt or make sense.

You're right Jim, and you've got me there. Of all the stuff M says, I still haven't got that one! I presume he means we peacefully merge with the infinite bliss never to be troubled by anything again. From people who've had near death experiences that's what it seems to be like.

Yea, but how that translates to NOT LEAVING EMPTY HANDED is beyond my grasp. What's your take on it?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:05:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Weird
Message:

MK,

It seems to me that the modern premie cares only about one thing Maharaji says:

'What you are looking for is within you.' (Remember when he said within-inside? He doesn't say that anymore, does he? Maybe nagual rain should take note. Maharaji does seem to care about proper grammar).

Right? After that, it doesn't seem to matter what Maharaji says. It's just his philosophy and you just tolerantly let him ramble on. Seems to be a strange relationship. Why bother even listening to anything Maharaji says if the only thing that matters is that one sentence? How many times during the course of a discourse does he actually say that, and is that the only thing you hear him say, and just poo-poo the rest? As I said, seems very strange.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:09:01 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope...
Message:

Yes Jerry, he's rambled on about the same thing for thirty years, it's really quite astonishing. It surprises me that I can get anything original from him, it really does. I remember he once said that when he talks he likes to direct it at new people, he wants to introduce something. He always seems to be talking to new people, with the odd nod in the oldies direction. We used to want his attention and joked about having a 'veterens only' event where he could 'really let go' and we could laugh about the old days. Guess Amaroo is the closest to that. It was good fun actually.

The 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope I don't run into that.
best,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: So is Maharaji God?
Message:

Or the superior power in person?

Or someone has has come with more powers than ever before?

Or greater than God?

Please, MK, give us your answers to these questions.

A warning, though. This will cause conflict between what you believe and what you believe your master wants you to say.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:55:09 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes
Message:

and so are you and so is my cat.

Or the superior power in person?

Yes and so are you and I.

 

Someone who has come with more powers than ever before?

Yes and so have you and I.

Or greater than God?

It's a figure of speech meaning more 'significant' right?

Here's my little essay, I've tried to express it if it was an exam question, a study on the subject. It is.

When I did heroin we used to fit each other up sometimes, as an act of love, bonding. And when the 'giver' gently pulled the empty siringe out of your arm you'd look at them with this heavy, droopy, blissed out...'thanks man!' It was an amazing buzz, a sacred desperate connecting. At that point.....
(she said ernestly and with much openness)
who was the greater, the 'god' heroin coursing through my veins or my friend for giving it to me? I'd always go for the person and make them the issue. The buzz of the oozy love we shared was the deal for me. So when the heroin ran out, I didn't mind too much, we just moved on. I was bloody glad to have Knowledge through that period though and enjoyed the meditational flavour of the drug, it made so much sense to just fucking go inside and chill out. That's what the smack was, heaven for twenty minutes. I got addicted to K then I think.

Not a very good analogy of anything eh? (please don't show it to Jim, he'll put it through the shredder, grind it gently in the mortar and pestle and spread it on toast for his breakfsat)
True story though, astonishing memory actually, we had no idea what we were playing with at the time, early 70's, a steady diet of Tequila and smack, woa! Aren't the young brave, I watch my kids step close to the edges sometimes and I go woa...
Discovery has to happen though so on they go. I advise them to be very careful about source, regularity and quantity, they seem to understand it better than our mob did.
:::

Please, MK, give us your answers to these questions.
A warning, though. This will cause conflict between what you believe and what you believe your master wants you to say.
John.

No conflict. I no longer say what I think my master wants me to say. I definitely did attempt that kind of self abbregation a few times in the early days. My personality was too stubborn to be contained though so I always raved my own stuff anyway. Master or no master, we can't help but grow up a bit no matter what.

warms,
MK

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:18:32 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: MK
Subject: My cat too...
Message:

... is God. She has her own web page all about it. I'm not sure how good a Master she is though. Lately, she seems to be concentrating her powers on creating a gopher death-cult.

I understand all that hindu stuff about God being in everything and everyone, I've always liked it, and still do. I know it's not scientific, so I never talk about it like it's a fact, but it's more like poetry to me, I see it as a poetical way of looking at something I can't explain. Poetry is about feelings, so it fits for me.

I've heard premies express such sentiments before, about us all being manifistations of God or the Divine. I've heard M say it once, in twenty years. He seems to be teaching that the Master is a ''special'' manifistation of God, who should not be questioned.

I always liked the idea of having M. as a teacher, but the Master trip is too much for me. As time went on, and he started to bring the devotional stuff back, I felt he was pulling a bait-and switch on me. That's why it bugs me when the old timer premies keep talking about M as a teacher. I've heard M say several times how he despises being called a teacher or an inspirational speaker. Yet he presents himself to aspirants as a teacher, and the premies go along with that.

If he would just say what he means, and mean what he says, he would have many of the problems he faces now.

I've enjoyed many of your posts, though I don't know exactly where you are comming from, regaring the Master. It's not like I have to pin you down on the issue. I still enjoy meditation, even though it's regarded as riduculous to a lot of people here. Fortunately we don't all have to agree about everything. I've even enjoyed some of the arguments against meditation. It's not like I can argue with a single word that has been said about it. I understand the way people see it, and don't feel compelled to try to make anyone ''wrong'' about it, because they aren't. I just don't think I'm wrong for enjoying breath-watching, either.

I think I really wanted Yoga rather than a Master, though. The lies, the secrecy, the Idolization of M and the paranoia that surrounds him, are way more than I bargined for. I was one of those K-Lite people who got hooked on the simplicity. It's much simpler without the religion of Master worship. I prefer to feel nice without a lot of strings or baggage. My cat or anyone else can call themselves a Master if they want, but I won't be kissing their feet.

Best Regards,

- Chuck

Who tried foot kissing, and didn't like it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:21:55 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: My cat too...but not my neighbour!
Message:

Yes, I agree Chuck, teacher, master, guru, god. Rubbish in my book, master's ok I guess, it's an association thing, I loved my geography master at school so that word is acceptable to me.
I was scared of the paranoia around the premies close to him when I was young. Whenever he walked past with the serious blokes in suits a voice in my head said 'fucking businessmen' but I ended up with a big smile on my face and felt stoned. I've NEVER understood it. Once I was talking to him, inches away from his face, he was being very gentle and kind to me, but in a stray microsecond I thought..'fake' but then walked away and had such a lovely day. I put it down to a little ego reaction on my part.
When the humantitarian leader crap started up I thought 'what a lot of shyte'. I truly believe (from gossip) that M is much more maleable than we are led to think. He's really open to ideas on how to 'spread K better' and will try almost anything it seems. There again, as we all know, he's the big bossyboots as well, a hard taskmaster and an arrogant tyrant at times. I don't think he's ever cared what observers think. I was relieved when I found out he wasn't MR Perfect - it never gelled - me the fucked up confused devotee and him so above it all in perfect bliss and clarity - bullshit. I wanted someone who'd been where I had. I forgive him his youthful exuberence the same way I forgive my partner for being much less perfect than I first thought! I think we all kind of learn and grow together, leave our glowing expectations behind. Talking of partners, are you Pat's? (sorry, n.o.m.b) if you are I can see how you'd enjoy life, that restaurant sounds like a really stimulating scene, I read Pat's excellent account of 'movie star darshan'. He is one funny dude you've got there - I like that you both have a capacity to be open and giving. When we lose that I think we're done here on earth.
stay well Chuck,
MK

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:49:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Rawat claims to be Super Duper
Message:

'... master, guru, god. Rubbish in my book, master's ok I guess, it's an association thing, I loved my geography master at school so that word is acceptable to me.'

Which one is it, is 'master' rubbish or ok? When Rawat says 'the Master', he's not using in in the sense of a teacher as in 'geography master' meaning 'geography teacher'. You know that.

When Rawat claims to be God-in-a-bod (yes, he still does), he doesn't mean in the sense of everyone being a manifestation of God. You know that.

You don't go up to just anyone and start singing a devotional song to them, do you?

Rawat said either 'You're not God' or 'You're not the Knowledge'. He said that you could 'realize Knowledge' but you still wouldn't be like him. So he's claiming to be even more than a fully-realized soul. Given his words and behavior, it certainly doesn't appear that he is even partially realized (in a more down-to-earth sense). He's not even all that sane.

I assess him based on his words and behavior, not based on his claims about himself. That's a much more reasonable approach.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:28:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: What?
Message:

I truly believe (from gossip) that M is much more maleable than we are led to think. He's really open to ideas on how to 'spread K better' and will try almost anything it seems.

There is absolutely no evidence that this is so.

There is, on the other hand, lots and lots of evidence that m refuses to communicate with anyone outside of his very, small tightly-controlled world. Are you saying that you think he's got a few, select 'advisors' who he listens to? And that he'll be wanting to do 'x' but they'll talk him out of it? Indeed, that it's easy for them to do so, him being so 'malleable' and all? Are you dreaming?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:39:42 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What? Where, Why, When, and with whom?
Message:

The evidence is not available to you Jim, you mean?

No sir,
M doesn't have advisors my good man, he strips down to his kurta, hold the lotus position for a minute then disolves into the infinte eternal energy of God. There he gets given the plans to overun the world. Seven hours later when he comes out of gurumahasamahdi he barks immediate and perfect orders to his reiltroops. And his cunning plan spreads to ever further shores.

I have 'evidence' (are you serious???!!!) which lends me to understand that M's a real soft touch actually.

You certainly aren't today Jim!
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:53:20 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Don't you have to have a body to have hands?
Message:

and when you do leave your body, how are you going to carry anything with no hands?

Here again the logic escapes me MK ..... unless of course we wrap this concept up in rubber, bounce it off the blubber, then we can almost certainly create a magic solution.

Shit damn, when you have the Creator, Operator, Destroyer on the job, anything is possible !

Funny how this thing works that way (by the grace of blubber) when all else fails

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:34:49 (GMT)
From: bill-My reccomedation to
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: any ex with a program near them.
Message:

Print up a one page, front and back, report on the ex case,
Dettmers info ect... and ask for funds from us here, and print
as many as needed by your area, and have Christians hand them out
to the premies at the events.
For those in the USA, the PromiseKeepers.com website folks will
provide you with names in your area to contact. They will come
and hand the stuff out for you.

Those in other countries can mention here that they want
help contacting leaflet handout people in thier area. You will get that help.

rawat is merciless in his chokehold on those remaining cult
victims. If you are held back by not wanting to be the front line
person, no problem, the leaflet handout people are available
locally. Do your fellow man a favor, free them from the cult.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:51:40 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: bill-My reccomedation to
Subject: any ex with a program near them....For sure?
Message:

Have the Promise Keepers handed out anti-cult materials before?
Perhaps they should be contacted about M's family business activities and asked if they will help in a particular city on a particular date.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 02:37:00 (GMT)
From: bill-Yes they will and I
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: volunteer to be the contact person...nt
Message:

adfdg

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:44:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: bill-Yes they will and I
Subject: Bill - out of the frying pan and into the fire?
Message:

I really don't want to forge an association with the Promise Keepers (not that they would listen to anything I said in the first place!)

Don't you think their ideas about marriage are a bit strange?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:07:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong
Message:

Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

I haven't finished reading your good post yet but this got my goat. The paint in this analogy would be what? Our thoughts? Or our erroneous thoughts? Either way this type of thinking is a dead end street to nowhere.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:08:56 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Paint
Message:

Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

O.K., if you follow this analogy of paint covering beautiful mahogany furniture, which indeed happened to me once when I discovered that a beautiful hutch that my girlfriend was given was mahogany covered with black paint, how would you categorize Haharatji?

A. The beautiful piece of mahogany furniture.
B. The black paint.
C. The paint remover.
D. The paint removing tool.

Here's my analyis.

A. I don't think so.
B. Yeah, like, I think so, duh.
C. No.
D. No.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: a post from bob from below
Message:

From: Bob
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Sincere?
Message:
As long as we are human we are capable of being sincere, at least in small areas of our personality.
However I see more displays of sincerity in manipulative and abusive people than in 'good'people. (they don't appear sincere, just natural) Se how convinced a violent criminal can be about the valid excuse for his crime. The word love is used a lot in abusive relations. The point is that when people fool themselves, their emotions are starting to lead their own life and get a sentimental and impulsive caracter.
When rawat seems concerned that people don't like him, and he appears to be wronged, yes he is sincere-in that part of himself which is emotional. Don't pity him too much. he himself has built the walls of deceptions and lies within his personality, just like many criminals do, with the same purpose: to be able to look in the mirror and still have all the benefits of exploiting people.

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