Mike Finch -:- Why I am no longer a premie -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:29:14 (EST)

__ wolfie -:- Re: Why I am no longer a premie -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:38:51 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Great deduction Mike -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:41:39 (EST)

__ bill -:- Re: Why I am no longer a premie -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:27:16 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Bravo Mike. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:57:48 (EST)

__ __ Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller) -:- 0ne possible explanation for: seeing God -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:23:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're right - I saw God -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:02:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- How can you say that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:15:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Something like that... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:24:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- To see the world in a grain of sand... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:20:06 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think it was an hallucination... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:51:45 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Loose Ends. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:16:17 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:11:44 (EST)

__ __ __ Mark Appleman -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:34:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:09:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:38:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:19:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:15:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:56:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Leave the forum, Steve? Don't dare! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:02:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:28:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- A race of Gods in Bods -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:52:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog =) -:- PatC did you see 'Life of Brian' yet [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:39:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Stop nagging me, Deputy -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:59:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog =) -:- What happened to Poochie? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Poochie? He grew up! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:35:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Pat and Everybody.. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:59:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Music, poetry and god's grandeur -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:24:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- That's just so beautiful, Mark -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 00:10:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Now, Mark, Prove it! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:07:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Re: Now, Mark, Prove it! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:42:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Yes Mark that Helps x (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:05:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Okay, then... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:51:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Hey Mark....... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:00:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Hey Mark....... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:12:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Good advice Sulla -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:13:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Thanks, Deborah. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- Apparently it's a form of 'parasomnia' -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:01:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not my manifestation -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Snapping' I can't recommend it enough... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:47:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Me, too. It made all the difference in the world [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:03:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Another Snapping link... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:50:52 (EST)

Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:29:14 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why I am no longer a premie
Message:

I got K on June 1 1970, and was a totally committed premie for over 30 years.

 

I meditated for the statutory hour a day for 31 years, often much more, and very rarely missed a day. I travelled all over the world to see Maharaji - India many times, Australia, South and West Africa, practically every European country, and all over USA. For most of the time ashrams existed I was in one, giving up careers, education, and marriage.

 

For considerable parts of my 31 years, I was close to Maharaji personally - had many intimate conversations with him, much private instruction, and was probably the envy of many.

 

I was an instructor, and talked to many, many people with M's backing, and gave Knowledge to many people as well. Even before being an instructor, I was a famous satasang-giver, speaking often at the Palace of Peace and elsewhere up until it was videos-only time. In England I was one of a group of five that M appointed to run everything, and I toured all over being the grand honcho.

 

Much of this time was painful, but there were enough good times, amazing times even, to keep me going. I had some very beautiful experiences - timeless moments of great beauty that I still remember vividly - both in my meditation, and in various other situations with M.

 

I thought that it was my fault completely that most of my time was struggle, pain, and confusion; and that if I tried harder, gave up more, meditated longer, then I would move more into Maharaji's world and those beautiful jewel-like experiences would become more common, and the frustration and pain would recede, and I would realize Knowledge.

 

So why am I no longer a premie ?

 

It began in the late 90's, when I started thinking that here I am, blaming myself for almost 30 years for not realising Knowledge (whatever that means) - surely if Maharaji is the Master, he should be able to factor in all my shortcomings and still lead me to the ultimate.

 

In other words, in Maharaji's terms, he takes the hundred (or thousand) steps towards me, only asking me to take the one step towards him. Yet clearly I have not been able to take that one step, since I have still not realised Knowledge or melted away into boundless devotion or gratitude or whatever.

 

So if I cannot take that one step in 30 years, then he must come the 101 steps towards me so that I do not need to take even that one step, which I obviously cannot take.

 

So one of two things must be true:

 

EITHER he will not take that one extra step, in which case even if he is the Perfect Master, Lord and everything, it is no good to me, so I might as well leave;

 

OR the whole thing is bullshit.

 

In either case, leaving is the only option ! So I left, and am no longer a premie.

 

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:38:51 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Why I am no longer a premie
Message:

Hi,

it's a little bit similar for me. Practising knowledge according to Maha's advice left a lot a questions for me in the field of meditation. I had a few wonderful expierences in 28 years but I could never see that it is so wonderful like he talks about. That started to make me think maybe it is only for him so wonderful, his worldly standard, his career, his achievments, how all the crazy and wonderful premies serve him. I started to think maybe he deals with that K like those Amway freaks. For myself I realized that a teacher I can not talk about meditation is no help for me. I think meditation needs more guidance and discource. For me things were more helpfull in the times of Satsang but there was the love of real people ( unreal too) but I can't relate much to videos and after 28 years it was a fair chance in perspective of my limited time.
I practise some buddhistmeditation and it helps me much more to enter that inner space and there is more inner vision.

If you meet Buddha on your way ...kill him........ciao wolfie

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:41:39 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Great deduction Mike
Message:

You factored it right down to the common denominator

EITHER he will not take that one extra step, in which case even if he is the Perfect Master, Lord and everything, it is no good to me, so I might as well leave;

OR the whole thing is bullshit.

In either case, leaving is the only option ! So I left, and am no longer a premie.

It doesn't even matter that the first statement is a fallacy. You based your logic fair and square. For you it came down to this option, an option many premies would never entertain. But you still brought it to a conclusion that your 'real' mind could grasp. That's the beauty!

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:27:16 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Why I am no longer a premie
Message:

Hi Mike.
In your conversations with him, you were of course always standing
before god, how would he reinforce the I am lord idea when you had
your conversations with him?
Did you always manage to stay out of his way and defer to him consistantly and that was your method of surviving seeing him without incurring his displeasure?
Was his swearing and tough talk amuseing because it seemed so contradictory to his status?
Did he ever back you up against the wall verbally to check your intimidation level?
In retrospect, do many of his conversational styles seem like more
bullying than anything else?
Was it exhausting or would you just retreat to the breath to manage
the thinking reactions you may have had?
When up close with him did you mostly just feel your breath, and what did you think about when watching him doing whatever?
Did his abruptness and regal manners disappoint you or did you just
figure that he was the lord and 'he knew' and you figured that -he knew that you knew that he knew-.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Bravo Mike.
Message:

Hi Mike,

Whichever way you slice it, it doesn't work. Naturally, a premie believes the reason it doesn't work is because he or she isn't surrendering enough. It's a rigged game.

Faith is supposed to be a virtue, but in the case of Captain Rawat, I think it's a distinct hinderance.

Oh that we could have fallen from the path a couple of decades earlier, and saved ourselves years of wasted eyeball poking.

Life is certainly full of surprises. Like me, I suspect you're glad you got a bit of it back in time.

Anth, beyond mirth and breath.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:57:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

Thanks for that explanation, Mike. There's one thing that I've often wondered about regarding you. One evening, during the seventies, you gave satsang about how Maharaji supposedly manifested in your bedroom while you were lying in bed (''feeling at a loose end'', I remember you quipped to everyone's laughter).

Was this your imagination, a dream or an hallucination? You see, I too once had a ''manifestation of Maharaji'' while in France. To this day, I've never completely understood it or comprehended it.

The only explanation I've come up with is that yes, ''something'' did manifest in front of me and it may have been God. I consider it was God, appearing to me in the form that I'd most easily reckognise. Maharaji was hundreds of miles away in Marbella at the time so it definitely wasn't Mr Rawat.

On the other hand, it may have been an hallucination. But there a fine line is drawn. Where does an hallucination end and a manifestation of some power begin. Of course, this is assuming that there are such things.

I consider that Maharaji wasn't God but because we (or at least many of us) truly considered him to be God, in the same way that Christians believe in Jesus, then there was ample opportunity for God to manifest as Maharaji, either in actuality or as some would say, as an hallicination.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:23:31 (EST)
From: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller)
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 0ne possible explanation for: seeing God
Message:

A human being is an amazing creation. I know that the infinite power sustaining us is so compassionate that it will go to great lengths to do whatever it has to to help us get thru this life. It will even do things like (if it is necessary for a person's evolution) making that person's understanding of God appear to them during any of several states: awake, trance, dream, apparition, whatever. Remember, the image appearing to that person doesn't necessarily have to actually BE an incarnation God. It only has to SIGNIFY or MEAN God to that particular person. This is why I saw Maharaji in a vision during an LSD trip I took in 1976. At the time, it confirmed for me (or so I thought) that he was indeed God. I now know that if my image of God had been a jackass, THAT is what I would have seen. Indeed, my image of Maharaji now is that of a JACKASS, one that, from what I read in posts, delights in kicking PAM's, people who get too close to the JACKASS. So, in spite of the fact that he used a lot of truisms to advance his personal agenda of greed, one of those truisms M used is still true: With God (not M, mind you, God - BEEEEEEG difference!) all things are possible. Thus spaketh Teef.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:02:21 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller)
Subject: You're right - I saw God
Message:

and I did see God, dressed up as Maharaji. At the time of my own Manifestation of Maharaji/God, there was a huge and rapid communication between He and me that was akin to telepathy, only much deeper. Now I know this is going to sound corny but here's what it left me feeling;

''There has never been a time when you and I have not existed.''

Sound familiar?

In that moment I saw an eternal relationship without beginning and without end, between me and Him. It was as if the curtains had been parted and the obvious fact was staring me in the face. So I don't consider it was an hallucination although I don't mind if other people think it was.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:15:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: How can you say that?
Message:

If you don't consider it a hallucination (which it most obviously was, in my eternally respectful opinion), why would you leave him? I wouldn't.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:24:57 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Something like that...
Message:

Something like that happened to me when I was still in introductory level while all my friends were already aspirants. I was in a stressful situation just before satsang started, so I gave a look at M's picture on the wall and told him: I don't know who you are but if you are really something you've got to help me now. Satsang began and I started to see light around the premie who was talking, and suddenly, the light became greater just before my eyes. I wasn't thinking at the moment but my feeling, as I was one with the light was like: When did I get separated from you? And I was totally surround by love from my heart and I felt like a little baby in her mothers arms, totally identified with that light as the most familiar thing in my life, if I would've had to go with that light in that moment I would've without missing anything in this world. After that moment I was completely changed and each pair of eyes I could stare at brought me joy, and I had to do an effort there, and later at home, in not staring at the same pair of eyes all the time or too long so I didn't look weird. The experience lasted some days until I was called into service meeting and I was the only one who didn't receive any service to do, I don't know if that was a shot to my ego or to my heart, but after that I felt miserable and full of resentment with God, who gave and then took away such a gift from me. So I went to look for old friends and old ways to ease my pain, and found only one with whom I could talk about it, and while I was talking I could feel my heart again and when I left, everything was bright, the trees, the birds, the sea, every thing was full of life. I never had an experience like that again not even when I received k, but that was the proof I was looking for. Later I went to my parish with the good news that I had seen God, and the first Father who I talked to, an old nice one who insisted I talk to him, changed his mind quickly after he heard what I have to say, telling me that he was going to call the other Father since he was more prepared to deal with young people like me. I had a long and friendly conversation with him that lasted for more than an hour.

Another time while I was premie, I was walking outside and I started feeling as if my eyes were a pair of windows from whom someone was looking through, I can't tell you if I liked it or not but it felt strange, maybe a little scary.

I had other strange happenings like this before I got to know about M. and also a repeated dream that I could have sworn was true, if it would have been possible for my friends to be in my room throughout the night while I was completely ashamed to be seen by them in my pajamas.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:20:06 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: To see the world in a grain of sand...
Message:

....and heaven in a wild flower, as Blake put it.

Heightened emotion stimulates the imagination.

If a homeless, drunken Viet vet (plenty on the streets of SF) came up to me and said, ''I am god,'' I would pity him.

If someone arrived in my life with a three-ringed circus of sainted mahatmas, (like Ghandi Ji no less) a Holy Family and a schpiel that fit right in with every cosmic mystery which I had ever experienced on LSD and said to me, ''I am greater than god because I can reveal god,'' and this was accompanied by beautiful music, whipped up emotions, a heightened sense of hope and joy, I would stop and listen.

The first time I had darshan I saw the universe in Rev Rawat or that his lotus feet barely touched the earth and that all happened inside me. It was the same for the next ten years and dozens of darshans. Boy, could I tell you some fairy tales!

It happened because I believed and hoped that it would happen. Rawat sure had a good show in the beginning. It simply got so hokey and unimaginative that it soon became obvious that every wonderful experience I had was in my own imagination.

The part of the brain that houses the imagination is stimulated by emotion, especially emotions of joy, hope, euphoria and bliss. Booze can do it. Entheogenic drugs can do it. Ecstatic sex and music can do it and so could the Rawat Family Circus - well, once upon a time.

We all got out of it exactly what we put into it and most of the folks here seemed to have been highly passionate people and put a lot into it. Those who remain in the cult seem to lack much of the adventurousness and intensity that there was in the beginning. No surprise since it now seems that Rawat never had much going for himself at all other than a pretty good revivalist show inherited from his dad.

It was fun for a while until it became obvious that it was just another stupid religion.

Yes, I still worship my breath and think it's quite worthy of being called the Holy Name of God eventhough I don't believe in god and, even if I did, would ask him to take early retirement as enough horror has happend in his name already.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:51:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller)
Subject: I think it was an hallucination...
Message:

Steve,

Your explanation is flawed for those of us who don't believe in god. I didn't believe in god when I was a premie, I believed in Maharaji.

It is common among those who are in personality cults to have hallucinations, especially in cults which teach meditation and use repetition (satsang), along with sleep deprivation, i.e., exhaustion.

I don't consider these visions as a mystery at all. Our brains are powerful things and in any of the above-mentioned states, hallucinations are possible.

Human brains deprived of thinking will do many inexplicable things. Meditation, knowledge, is the hallmark of m's brainwash, programming, call it what you will. I used to pray to have m appear before me either in dreams or while awake. One of the reasons is because I heard about these manifestations happening to other premies and I was jealous.

My remark in no way places blame on those who had these experiences and related them. I had many experiences which I thought were mysteries of the universe, which, of course, I believe Maharaji was in charge of. Lots and lots of premies had these experiences.

My 2cents,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:16:17 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Loose Ends.
Message:

Hi Dave,

Are you sure Mike said he was in bed feeling 'AT' a loose end?

Anth, the lowest common denominator.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:11:44 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

...about how Maharaji supposedly manifested in your bedroom... Was this your imagination, a dream or an hallucination?

 

I think now it was a dream. Several times since then, I have had such strong dreams about someone that it was as if I was actually with them in a waking state. Powerful dreams, but I think just dreams nevertheless.

 

How you choose to interpret these, or what experience you attach to the phenomenon, is another question, and purely subjective of course.

 

I am sorry for hyping you, and many others, up over what I now consider a wishful dream !! It was still a powerful experience for me at the time, though, and I still remember quite vividly the bedroom it took place in, and what I saw, after all these years !

 

-- Mike

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:34:52 (EST)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

There is another possibility on this phenemenon that presents itself for serious consideration (and this post is also my commentary on the 'degree of separation' thread below). There is a meaningful section somewhere in the links about 'faquir chand' (I've probably mutilated his name beyond recognition). Anyway, he was part of the Rhadosahmi tradition and discussed by Professor Lane. Well a few people had visions of him during a wartime experience where he literally came to them and suggested a path to safety. Later they ran into him and did their version of pranaming and devoting to him. Well in VERY UN-RAWATLIKE FASHION, he disavowed knowledge, took no credit for it, etc.

However no one denied that this happened.

Certainly pockets of enormous goodness, care, love, and kindness were experienced under the umbrella of this 30+ year experience of Premie life. An experience that in retrospect must be included in a long historical list of 'false messiahs'(and a minor one at that; though one's own false messiah is never a minor figure). While I agree with Mike's assessment of the Maharaji movement being 'bollocks' from stem to stern just based on his failure to walk the hundred steps,etc. (and knowing him personally, I congratulate him on graduating from the Rawat School of Self Limitation! It certainly was no Hogwarts ), it doesn't discredit the growth we each experienced in that stage of our human adventure process.

In that enviornment of total trust,many wonderful and cosmic events transpired. 'How could that be', we ask ourselves. Well for one thing, we are part of a big universe, with all sorts of interconnected bandwidths. And this universe, that we are indeed part of, is quite capable of performing in ways that are beyond our current scope or understanding. This is addressed intelligently by many (including our regular irregular Ms. Darling at www.motherwave.com).

Well there seems to be a level of ourselves what inter-locutes with this larger universe. Many call it the higher self. Its function is to provide stimuli and events - digestible to our own particular customized intelligence - that forward our overall progress into the Big Love, God, All That Is, whetver you want to call it. At whatever speed we program into it. So images that we might have of Maharaji ( or faquir chand, or the 'good maharaji' dissolving in the thread below) are all containers that we - in conjunction with our higher self - manifested to move along our ongoing self realization.

Another interesting article by Lane where he 'gave knowledge' in his college student class (without any aspirant program or any pre-technique brain-'wash'ing) gave results where participants experienced a wide range of 'beings' appearing in their 3rd eye during the light technique. These beings were by and large the reigning concept of a wise/divine man for each student. Students without a concept of a savior generally didn't see anything but 'light'.

So when we bought the 'Maharaji is THE ...(fill in the blank) of our lives' belief system, his image was overlaid onto all spiritual experience. And since the Universe we live in as a functioning and conscious part is LOADED with ecstacy, joy, wisdom, and love that puts Bahkti in the 'cheap high' category, we will (if we desire) continue to grow and get new overlays and belief systems that will facilitate wondrous growth. As most have outgrown Maharaji being the filter for their own experience of self, our own higher self will become a useful focusing tool for us consciously attracting better 'operating systems' of consciousness. Maharaji, when we each bought into him, was at that point the largest conception of God or our self that we could entertain or imagine. I'm sure we can all do quite a bit better the next time we ask the 'genie'(genie within us = genius)for a better connection to Source.

I recieved an undeniable (tho inadvertant) benefit from the Maharaji Spiritual Illusion Programme. For over two decades, I absolutely and unabashedly reserved a place in my neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being. This acceptance on my part allowed me for intermittant periods, to hold MY SELF in the same level of consciousness that I was projecting that Maharaji had attained (I mean he did say he was permanently in perfect god consciousness, back in the day).

When the Maharaji bubble burst for me, I was left with a decision. I could throw the whole thing out - after all, it was obviously totally fucked up. OR allow that same spiritual current that I had become accustomed to having in my life (because as a 'true devotee', I had maintained that God frequency in my own life) to run through my inner and outer life without an intermediary. This led me into a 'lemons to lemonade' scenario, as I embraced my divinity not only intellectually and philosophically, but Energetically as well.

The Energetic frequency that each of us have earned ( Mike with your 30 years of meditation )praying to whatever false god we did is Spiritual Currency indeed. And like the Euro, it can be spent or invested in many new 'countries of spirit' that we shall attract to us in our lives ahead.

To me I feel there is only one guru or initiation - if that is what we call it. And that is our own divine,or Higher level of self. Our one pointed devotion - if it existed - will bring us deeper and deeper into this true Brindaban of our Authentic Self. The gurus,standins, wisemen or conmen we attract to ourself are just training wheels on the Unicycle we were trying to turn into a bicycle built for two.

While things are very strange indeed during the deconstruction period of a full blown belief system like Maharajism, it is comforting to that the entire universe is biased to our full awakening into Joy. And whether it happens in the 1st 5th or 15th round, I assure all that YOU will emerge victorious. By reclaiming your personal divinity, personally invested in the spiritual Enron of your youth.

As Anth so aptly said in his journey. It wasn't that M wasn't the living Lord, he was !. Just like each and every one of us. All. A race of Gods in Bods.

And that, my friend,is no hallucination.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:09:56 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

The Energetic frequency that each of us have earned (Mike with your 30 years of meditation) praying to whatever false god we did is Spiritual Currency indeed. And like the Euro, it can be spent or invested in many new 'countries of spirit' that we shall attract to us in our lives ahead.

 

Hi Mark

 

Thanks for your post. This in particular is a great sentiment, and very encouraging.

 

I have been doing a Buddhist Insight meditation for about 8 months now, and feel sometimes like it is new to me and I am starting all over again; but at other times that I have been doing it for many years - just as you have expressed it above - and it is very heartening to feel that all that Knowledge meditation was not wasted after all !

 

Hope you are well Mark, good to hear from you after all these years !

 

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

Well said and extraordinarily well thought through. As others have said, the follow up clarification helps tremendously. As always, thanks for bringing back maps and scouting reports from your adventures.

Richard, looking forward to seeing the Race of Gods in Bods at the Olympics

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:38:22 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

While things are very strange indeed during the deconstruction period of a full blown belief system like Maharajism, it is comforting to that the entire universe is biased to our full awakening into Joy. And whether it happens in the 1st 5th or 15th round, I assure all that YOU will emerge victorious. By reclaiming your personal divinity, personally invested in the spiritual Enron of your youth.

Now we are getting something of remarkable value out of this whole three decade debacle. I myself am finding after dispensing with the grief, the dispair the anger of having to give up my hopes and dreams of serving the higher purpose I once thought m represented, it turns out that there is another option.

With the obstacle of M out of the way and laid to rest from my own identiy I have discovered the renewed chance to embrace my own personal and independent option to spiritually awaken (for lack of a better term.

This time on my own terms, through my own efforts, with no need for a teacher, a guru, a master, a religion. Just entirely by me this time around conducting my own personal journey of self realization.

There are many others experiencing this same facinating phenomena I find more and more each day it seems.

Thanks for the confirmation Mark

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:19:53 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

Good to see your name agin Mark.
Love the post, only part I might add is that Murphy's Law has me as a believer now.
I believe in Murphys Law.

It is so powerful that no one seems able to go from success to success to success in life.
No one is able to use money and location to avoid Murphy.
Not one person ever seems to have somehow gotten around Murphy.
Murphy is so smart that problems come perfectly tailored seemingly
to git you.
FOlks blame the next guy for causeing trouble in thier life but it is Murphy doleing out your due.
It aint Karma, because sitting still adoreing god in a cave will still get you a world of trouble.
No one can control thier own experience. We are not able to maintain
a steady mental state. It fluxes.

These and other boundries that I am fergitting at the moment are there for reasons I can guess at, but one reason I can mention that
is why I posted, is that the boundries tell us that an intelligence
put these boundries on us.
Not an unconcious oneness.
There is a god thingee that is concious and the negative proof of that is Murhy's Law and how we are all facing insurmountable boundries.

In addition, no one can attain any sort of 'higher state' except for very short moments. NO one has gotten anywhere and stayed.
Spititual types of course will never admit that, they think better to pretend and blame themselves for not being able to do the impossible.

There is a god, he she it just aint as advertised.
The god is playing a rough game here.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:15:27 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

In addition, no one can attain any sort of 'higher state' except for very short moments. NO one has gotten anywhere and stayed.
Spititual types of course will never admit that, they think better to pretend and blame themselves for not being able to do the impossible.

This is a very valid point Bill, I can't say that I know anyone who walks around 24/7 maintaining a peak higher experience. The thing is that though if someone gets out of the box for even just one time and experiences something more than they previously knew existed that is

That one experience alone is enough to forever change and alter that persons perception of the box as they once knew it and the way they view the future possibilities of getting out of the box some other time.

The box that I refer to here is that of the conditions and beliefs we set for ourselves in this life. The act of exiting is an act breaking out of the box so to speak and I am finding that my particular box is one of ever expanding dimensions in many amazing directions.

Nice post Bill

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:56:37 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

Thank you Mark! Thanks for your fascinating explanations and enlightening encouragement. For a while there I was afraid that I was the only strong posting proponent of continuing the pursuit of our own higher selves, of not allowing our disenchantment with M to disengage our hearts desire to bask in the love, light and enjoyment of our higher selves. In fact, I had even considered leaving F7. You've given me reason to stick around. Brilliant post. Very nice job. Thank you so much for sharing!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:02:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Leave the forum, Steve? Don't dare!
Message:

Just because some of us are atheist heathens doesn't mean that we don't enjoy upbeat and loving posts.

And anyway, don't you love it that we hardly agree on anything except one thing - we all took the massa's leash off and are now free and happy to be and do whatever we want?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:28:24 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery
Message:

Brilliant post Mark, and very illuminating.
I know that many of us find it hard to explain to ourselves some of the more 'cosmic' experiences we had around M. At the time we attributed them entirely to him and the impact of these experiences became the glue (impact adhesive!) that kept us stuck in the cult for so long.

I had my share of such experiences, and I'm still mystified by some of them. I found the article on Charisma and Darshan (in the Indian background Index on EPO) very helpful, and your post threw some light on it too.
Thanks
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:52:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: A race of Gods in Bods
Message:

I no longer have much taste for Hindu concepts such as Gods in Bods but I do see that human beings are the only animals with free will and power over there own evolution.

I sometimes wonder what exactly the Greek gods meant to the ancient Greeks; not the antique ones like Zeus and Dionysus, who were at least as old as Minoan civilization two thousand years before the peak of Athens, but the newer ones like Hercules who were usually heroes before they became gods.

Debussy said about Bach: ''He is a benign god to whom all musicians should pray.''

Music (not only classical but nearly all music) often reminds me how divine humans really are so I do understand what Debussy meant. We are all lords of the universe even if we do have take out the garbage and wash dishes.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:39:21 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog =)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PatC did you see 'Life of Brian' yet [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:59:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog =)
Subject: Stop nagging me, Deputy
Message:

I can't call you dog anymore now that you have taken of the massa's leash. :)

Yes, I did and I fell asleep. I warned you that I can't stand Monty Python.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:59 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog =)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: What happened to Poochie? [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:35:34 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog =)
Subject: Poochie? He grew up!
Message:

But, if you insist, I'll call you Poochie.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:59:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks, Pat and Everybody..
Message:

This thread has helped me understand a lot.

Pat, you said:

Music (not only classical but nearly all music) often reminds me how divine humans really are so I do understand what Debussy meant. We are all lords of the universe even if we do have take out the garbage and wash dishes.

You have a way with words that help me to understand stuff and laugh, too. Your last sentence above made me laugh and your reference to music rings true in my heart.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:24:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Music, poetry and god's grandeur
Message:

Too funny that an agnostic like me enjoys religious music more than any other - especially requiems and anything where a choir of human gods and angels sings the glory of god. I simply replace the word god with the word life and am quite contented. I wish I could post the Gloria from Verdi's Requiem here but here's one of my favorite poems:

God’s Grandeur

by Gerard Manley Hopkins, 1844–1889

The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

Of course everyone knows this poem of Hopkins':

Pied Beauty

GLORY be to God for dappled things—
For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow;
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced—fold, fallow, and plough;
And áll trádes, their gear and tackle and trim.

All things counter, original, spare, strange;
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim;
He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:
Praise him.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 00:10:43 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: That's just so beautiful, Mark
Message:

I really got off on those last few paragraphs of your post (from The Energetic frequency onwards).

I have often felt that, that even though the M trip was a load of hogwash in the end, our having participated in it at all was the true value that we got from it. Even though I see M and Knowledge as bogus now, the people that have been practicing it for 30 years, to my eyes, are awesome, spiritual people. So how to reconcile those two things has been at times difficult for me, and you have explained it so beautifully. Thank you!

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:07:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Now, Mark, Prove it!
Message:

Dear Mark,

I don't understand your explanation.

How were/are you able control your brain?

You said:

I recieved an undeniable (tho inadvertant) benefit from the Maharaji Spiritual Illusion Programme. For over two decades, I absolutely and unabashedly reserved a place in my neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being. This acceptance on my part allowed me for intermittant periods, to hold MY SELF in the same level of consciousness that I was projecting that Maharaji had attained (I mean he did say he was permanently in perfect god consciousness, back in the day).

How did you reserve a place in your neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being? Exactly, how did that work? Were you conscious of it? What did you do to maintain it? What power did you have over the millions of neurological circuits in your brain, to alter that when you found out m was a fake? Christ, I'd really like to know exactly how you did that.

In other words, you were not in a cult, you had free will the whole time, your mind was altered only to the extent you allowed it to be altered or obliterated by cult indoctrination. You consciously accepted m as your lord and were able to control all the stuff inside your skull and sort it out after you realized that what you controlled in the first place, inside your brain and mind, was false? It doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand that process. Prior to receiving knowledge I was an atheist. I had no desire to have a guru nor join any groups of any type that were mystical, meditation groups, nor mainsteam religions. So I don't get how you have so much control over what your belief system evolved into after being programmed into a cult, nor your ability revise that belief system to your liking after the ''bubble burst.''

There is much about the brain I don't know. I only know two things relating to this subject. 1. I was inducted into a cult and worshipped m as the living lord, i.e., I gave up my mind; and 2. After a long period of time I realized that m was a fake and a fraud, and the process of deprogramming myself began and continues.

I'm not trying to put down your belief system, but to spread it whole like butter on toast here could be confusing to people trying to sort out the cult mindfuck.

I get the gist of what you are saying, but I don't understand your process.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:42:08 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Now, Mark, Prove it!
Message:

Hey Cynthia.

It is simply the mind/body connection at work. The mention of eating lemons or one's favorite imagery for sex will momentarily reprogram you into those states . Our mental body,emotional and spiritual body are as real as our physical one.

There are quite a few stages and processes at work here on this Forum.

One is getting at the real life of a self proclaimed teacher
Another is the exiting process -that one is most ot it.
Another part is getting back to the CELEBRATION of love light or whatever you call it. that's the bit I choose and chose and will always choose to 'butter up'. But that's just me.

All our processes are our own. Simply put, I have just recycled the love I gave outside of myself to my own self. Its just human consciousness and choice at work. watering my garden.I continue to learn from others. But no more Giving my power away.

To me the end of Maharajism IS the beginning of Hope. (thanks Bai Ji)
hope that helps.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:05:03 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Yes Mark that Helps x (nt)
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:51:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Okay, then...
Message:

Hey back Mark,

That doesn't exactly explain what you said in your original post, but your second post does help me to understand.

I also have learned through not to give my power away. And loving myself is the most important thing for living well and happy.

I don't call it a universal thing or a higher power, but I think I do understand what you mean now. Thanks.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:00:36 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Mark Appleman
Subject: Re: Hey Mark.......
Message:

I took immense hope from your post.

Right now I have had (as you so aptly put it)my training wheels disconnected and found my balance to be wanting.

Sad state of affairs for an ageing ingenue unicyclist.

I have no faith in Anything at present, due to the shock of betrayal by the one i believed to Be God.

This is proving to be the most lonely of feelings at this time but there is nothing I can do about it 'cept ride it out.

At the end of my rope, one of my strongest silent complaints to m was that, if you are you and i am your beloved, how could you not love and accept me as I am?

I have devoted myself and life to you FULLY for nearly 30 years and I am still feeling that 'It is all my fault'

When will I be good enough for you?

Even if I am deluded, How can you abandon me?

I now commit that i do not want to be the lover of a God that isn't there for me.
Actions NOT Words are what I can trust.

Words from m are not legal tender. He doesn't even want to know my name.

Thanks Mark
Love Bai Ji

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:12:19 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Hey Mark.......
Message:

Bai Ji, the same is happening to me, It's painful not to believe, but the pain will pass and hope will remain. After all this nightmare I could not believe in Him anymore for the association with M, and I'm still feeling uncomfortable each time I had to name God, so each time I have to do it I add 'if he exists' because I really don't know if he does, I don't have any proof anymore, the one I may have had may be mixed in my brain with you know who. It hurt Bai Ji, but lets not close all the doors lets have hope, we don't have any proof that He doesn't exist either. Lately I don't worry about it to much, if he does exists I believe he will understand since he knows everything, even if we don't acknowledge him He will proudly accept us as we are and love us throughout our life, so lets save the gift from the garbage and arise, we won't fall with the looser who couldn't bare to live with the truth.

With Love.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:13:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Good advice Sulla
Message:

Don't worry about the 'god thing' one way or another. It is the carrot that sets you up for conditional thinking.

Let your thoughts flow like a wonderous waterfall cascading over the breathtaking scenery. Be proud of your thoughts and allow them to expand to the point where they cannot be labeled and placed in boxes. Experience life. Embrace your thoughts. Cherish them.

Your mind will always try to resist the binding of 'false truths'. Priests teach the parish that 'thoughts' are the evil offices of the devil and Maha taught us that our own 'minds' were the evil offices of humanity. BULLSHIT!

We have broken the shackles of cult indoctrination. Your mind just needs time to learn to relax in it's new environment.

Be well, to both of you. You have my undying support.

deborah

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanks, Deborah.
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:01:40 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Apparently it's a form of 'parasomnia'
Message:

http://www.nightterrors.org/parasomnia.html
[ Click here for information ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:44 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not my manifestation
Message:

which took place while I was standing, wide awake during the day, in the middle of the French countryside somewhere between Paris and Chateroux.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:47:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'Snapping' I can't recommend it enough...
Message:

Hello All,

If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. It explains a lot and is recommended also by Rick Ross.

I think for every cult exiter it's a ''must read.''

Cynthia
[ Trancenet Review of Snapping ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:03:29 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Me, too. It made all the difference in the world [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:50:52 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Another Snapping link...
Message:

which gives several sample pages you can read...
[ Snapping at Amazon ]

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