Jeffrey Donner -:- A Metaphor -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 21:55:10 (GMT)

__ Lesley -:- gross individualism??????? -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:42:02 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Hi Jeff' -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 12:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Hi Jeff' -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 17:07:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- No Mike, -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 10:20:38 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- A Metaphor -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 02:07:14 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Welcome -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 01:16:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jeffrey Donner -:- Welcome -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:46:32 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Amazing Grace!......This is a KEEPER! -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 00:50:48 (GMT)

__ Mark N -:- Sorry to nitpick your fine message -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 00:48:59 (GMT)

__ __ Jeffrey Donner -:- Sorry to nitpick your fine message -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 20:52:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mark N -:- I really like what you say about......... -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 08:53:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Let me nitpick -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 01:52:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mark N -:- ah - I see your point ........buuuut -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 00:28:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- There is Larry the cook to consider -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 02:00:02 (GMT)

__ Tony -:- I was an altar boy. -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:42:34 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- Thank you, Jeffrey **BEST OF FORUM** nomination -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:29:00 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Thank you, Jeffrey **BEST OF FORUM** nomination -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:42:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- 2000 years from now -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 02:24:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Good grief, Jerry! -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:53:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The end is nigh, Katie -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:43:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- The end is nigh, Katie -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:50:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- 2000 years from now -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:42:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- less than 200 yrs. from now -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 20:50:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- 2000 years from now -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:51:43 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- A Metaphor -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 22:59:45 (GMT)

__ __ Jeffrey Donner -:- A Metaphor -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:57:41 (GMT)

__ __ Henry -:- A.A. does have a philosophy -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:46:45 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 21:55:10 (GMT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:

Friends --

I’ve been lurking for several months. In mid-March, my much older and much uglier bro, Michael Donner, alerted me that an interesting discussion was underway in Forum 5. I’ve been fascinated since.

I’m a Catholic priest, pastor of a parish at a state university, studying anthropology. I’m most interested in how religions evolve. My chief interest is in Catholicism which is attempting a significant in-house transformation. I would never have imagined that listening to you guys would be all that useful to my own project -- I got reading because Mike’s life has been so, ahem, interesting. But I got hooked -- especially by people trying to sift out some zone of comfort between being a group and being individuals. I can’t imagine a topic which better defines the difficulties of modern life. And you have faced it in spades with the explosion over Jim.

I just wanted to offer the following metaphor from history as a lens you might use to get another slant on what’s been going on in Forum 5. I am extremely grateful to you for the sharing of your lives that has gone on here, tough as it has been. I send this metaphor as a token of my appreciation and hope it helps a little in the planning underway for forum 6.

One of the issues illuminated by the flap in forum 5 is part of the history between Catholics and Protestants. Here's the metaphor: in the 16th c., the Catholic hierarchy is Maharaji, Luther et al are the ex-premies. What has happened to the Protestants is that once badly burned by a religious bully drunk with his own power, they have become extremely, almost genetically, on alert for anything that smacks of 'Catholicism'. When 'Catholicism' rears any of its old signs in a Protestant group, a part of the group gets allergic and splits. Protestantism continues today to split into smaller and smaller pieces. Lesson: one of the really touchy, and most interesting, issues in religion is the complex relationship between the individual and the group. Brian says his actions were in large part in defense of his individual rights to express himself without being bullied by a flame-thrower, but gets accused by the other libertarians of selling out the group. Jim, the loudest of the libertarians, wants a cohesive group with a coherent point of view. He even seems to want to speak for the group. Ironies are flying in every direction.

So here's an issue worth watching, I think: the world's experience of Catholicism through the 19th c. has spawned a reaction of separatism and splintering in the religious world in defense of the individual. That reaction was a very important move for human beings to make. That splintering, though, has led to a loss of the experience of transcendence that comes with belonging to something/someone bigger than the self. So move two has been the recognition of alienation and the destruction to the human spirit from gross individualism. The question, then, is: what's move three? I think the ex-premies are trying to figure that out at the moment, working out the new game plan about the big issue, group vs individualism, through the details of how to set up forum 6.

If the metaphor is useful, some questions seem to follow. Isn’t part of the issue you’re facing the degree to which the exes want to imagine being a group? And isn’t part of THAT issue the negotiation of how to deal with your personal histories while at the same time trying to offer the benefit of your COMMON experience (which defines you as a group) with those who are still stuck in a cult? By what method, in what style of personal sharing, do you clarify your own anger and disenchantment and how do you translate what you’ve learned about THAT for the sake of those who are still in the cult? I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life. That’s a very tricky little proposition to pull off. But it is extremely important, I think, for people to try it, because all over the planet today people are caught between the alienation of modern individualism and the offer of a safety net from every sort of fundamentalism. Any group, and every group, which takes a step in the healing of this issue in the world is a grace given from the future for everyone.

With all my heart, then, I thank you and I wish you the very best.
Jeff Donner

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:42:02 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: gross individualism???????
Message:

Thought your post interesting, and liked very much what you were saying about the needs of the individual and the group, but I have to say I think your cult skirt is showing with the comment about gross individualism.

Or are you referring to the desperate, often hedonistic efforts people are making in the face of bureaucratising institutionalising overcrowded, need to have a fight to make some space, but can't afford the nuclear fallout, way we're living today.

There are so many of us, and we make such a huge impact that it seems we are going to have to merge our will, like an ant colony, or, of course, dramatically reduce our numbers and our powerful ways and live in small groups, which currently seems to be the way we like to live, but are losing fast.

Personally my choice is that I would prefer to live without an answer to the question of how big is the universe, is there a wall round it like in that movie The Truman Show, a vaster reality to know, if it means that I can live in emotional comfort in a world where coconuts still drift onto the beach with the tide.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 12:30:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Hi Jeff'
Message:

Can you tell your little brother he still owes me £4.25 from 1978 and he can have his Peter Frampton cassette back when he pays me.

Thanks.

Anth who has to make the most of his remaining bits of memory.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 17:07:20 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Jeff'
Message:

that's where my tape is! i've been wonder all these years. did you steal it while i was sitting at m's feet in the dining room and you were waiting with what's her face in the little office at rigate??

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 10:20:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: No Mike,
Message:

You swapped it with me for 20 Embassy Tipped Cigarettes deposit, and the loan of my blond wig. (I never got those stains out by the way. I had to dye the whole wig purple.)

And by 'What's her face', I guess you mean Jane. She would have been giving me elocution lessons.

The last I heard of her was a strapping Texan threw her on the back of his horse and rode off to his ranch with her on the back.

Anth, getting the facts straight.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 02:07:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:

By what method, in what style of personal sharing, do you clarify your own anger and disenchantment and how do you translate what you’ve learned about THAT for the sake of those who are still in the cult?

Just state your case plainly and truthfully, Faddah. If premies on the fence (and there really ain't any other kind worth addressing, I'm beginning to see that REAL clear. Some are just OUT THERE, gone forever), can relate or identify with what you're saying, than they're on their way to freeing their own mind. In the long run, all the ex-premie is, is a nudge to the still struggling premie who knows something isn't right, but just can't make the break, just yet. When they come to this site, read all the materials, hang out on the forum for awhile, they begin to understand what side of the fence they're on because of how they find just how deeply they feel the same sentiments as ex-premies do. And then they become ex-premies too.

Simple.

I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life.

Well, as far as dyed in the wool premies go, the real hard cases, they'd beg to differ with you, Jeffrey. They think their souls have been saved. If you want to have some fun, try to convince them otherwise. But, no, I'm not trying to 'sell' anything to premies. If a premie wants to be a premie, and is really sure that's what they want, who am I to get in their way? It's their life choice. But if a premie is struggling with his premiehood, and not so sure he wants to continue wearing that mantle, I'd say hang out for awhile, see how you feel about what's going on here. Do you warm up to the ex-premie angle, or do you find yourself repulsed or left cold by it? Just by doing that, everybody finds what side of the fence they're on quick enough. We don't have to do or 'sell' anything. Your own response or reaction will tell you everything you need to know.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 01:16:57 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Welcome
Message:

Wonderful insights and observations. I'm totally amazed that anyone could have witnessed the recent debacle and meltdown here and found such an interesting take on it. Thanks for posting and welcome.

One question: how did you resist your brother's persuasive appeal to become a premie? (Assuming he did try to 'convert' you at some point.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:46:32 (GMT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Welcome
Message:

Hey, I'm a Catholic priest, up to my eyeballs in the cult the church was at the time! I didn't need to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

J

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 00:50:48 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Amazing Grace!......This is a KEEPER!
Message:

Well Father Donner, I'm sorry, it's been over 30 something years from my last confession and these are my SINS.

What an interesting family dynamic you have going on there, I must say.

You painted a wonderful metaphorical synopsis of the situation. However, I feel that you have thus far brushed out is the broad strokes. Can you go in with one your finer brushes and detail the significance of how someone like me who unemotionally faded away only to find myself here.

For instance, I do not have the immediate emotional investment as current premies because I expanded both my spirituality and social life beyond the MAHA/K cult freak show which used to be my life.

I seldom reminisced about my involvement with M & K, and when I did I thought of it as an extended adolescence but never never felt closure. Many memories were actually repressed.

Digesting the unforseen truth of the matter has been painful, like I'm on a journey in a train going both backwards in time to see where I used to live as well as what has become of the old town today. Weird, eh?

So the camp is not divided into 2 distinct groups, not that the Catholicism and Protesism ever were. How does this fit into the picture for us.

I'd love to hear more. Thank you for posting.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 00:48:59 (GMT)
From: Mark N
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Sorry to nitpick your fine message
Message:

Dear Jeffery,

You wrote about the splintering of the church:

'That splintering, though, has led to a loss of the experience of transcendence that comes with belonging to something/someone bigger than the self.'

I don't think you are saying that by belonging to a group, a transcendent experience is available that is not available by not belonging to a group. If that were the case, transcendent experiences would be available every time one went to a football match as that is a shared group activity.

I think that what you mean is that by belonging to the Catholic Church, transcendent experiences are available that will not be available once splintering occurs.

My own feeling is that whatever you do or don't belong to is irrelevant because ones spiritual journey (whatever that is) is an intensely and unbelievable unique and personal experience that happens completely internally despite or in spite of outside influences.

I personally feel that whether one decides to hang ones hat at the door of a group, be that the church or a cult, or if one goes it alone, if ones commitment to oneself is high, growth or change will happen, if ones commitment to oneself is superficial, nothing will happen.

What I am saying is that to me membership of any external community is less important than ones commitment to ones own growth and that transcendent experiences are 100% internal and if they occur, they occur because of ones internal work not ones group.

This point is critical because when people join the cult, they are hughly motivated and put a lot of work into themselves. They then have experiences that may be transcendent. The cult then claims to be responsible for those experiences and in a superficial way it is because it motivated them to work on themselves. Unfortunately, the cult then uses the experiences as a tool to bind the individual to itself. It says 'see, I told you, this is my gift, stay with me and I will give you more'. In fact this point is the central marketing tool of the cult. Its called loyalty marketing. It is cheaper to market to existing clients then to go and find new ones.

In fact the real resonsibility for having the experiences lies with the people who put in the effort for themselves. What matters is that whatever internal work they did on themselves would lead to growth, no matter what group they belong to or if they belong to no group at all.

M used to say that hhis path was quicker, it was the direct route to the destination, no dead ends, no forks in the road, no bends and twists. In fact every group makes the same claim (they could hardly do otherwise). As I keep saying here, to me the path is individual and progress comes from ones own effort and nothing else.

I wonder whether joining a group actually slows ones spiritual growth by introducing extraneous conceptual material that distracts the individual from her efforts.

However, I can see how the Catholic Church has stood the test of time probably because it does provide enough space for the internal spiritual needs of many people to manifest.

I suspect that M and K will slowly fade away as the limited space they provide people for their internal spiritual growth becomes apparent to each individual.

I am sorry to lump the Catholic Church - a great institution that is a cornerstone of Western thought, in with a cult but from the point of view of the individual, to me both are external supports (of differing quality), for a process that is 101% internal and individual and unique. No external support can totally satisfy the needs of this internal process.

Thanks for your thought provoking message.

Mark N

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 20:52:56 (GMT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Mark N
Subject: Sorry to nitpick your fine message
Message:

Mark -- nitpick away! You got my meaning right. I do think joining the group, any group, is the first 'transcendental move'. In that sense, it doesn't make any difference if it's a bowling league or the Nazis. I really think people want to experience getting past their own skin. I think people experience being shut up in their own bodies without connection to anyone or anything as a living hell. That's why sex sells.

But you're absolutely right, I think, that it makes all the difference in the long run whether the group you join promotes individual human growth or death. And how those get defined is the really tricky part. The Nazis were selling life by killing Jews. For a long time Catholics sold life by killing, imprisoning, proscribing the civil rights of anyone who was not. So the importance of defining 'life' and 'death' is huge. WHo makes the definition? HOW does it stick? etc.

My sense is that the exes bit big on a promise of life, and found it was a rotten apple. Finding the most useful and effective way to share that experience is really important, I think, because learning which are the good and bad apples is going to determine the next phase of our human history.

Thanks for letting me gab!
Jeff

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 08:53:04 (GMT)
From: Mark N
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: I really like what you say about.........
Message:

learning which are the good and the bad apples for the sake of the future.

If one was to set a number of criterea and apply them to all groups one would be able to figure out which were good apples and which bad.

For example, the first question that I would ask is 'is this group self-critical'? You Jeffrey have shown that as a Catholic priest you are still able to look at your religion objectively and at its history critically and you are free to do so. Score 1 for the Catholic church.

In the world of M and K however, objective self-criticism is non-existant. But then I suppose Premies feel that its impossible to criticise something that is inherently perfect. Score 0 for M.

By the criterion of self-criticism, EPO would be a way to instant nirvana as its is super self-critical. The fact that this is not happening means that additional criterea are needed.

Thanks for your interest.

Mark N.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 01:52:59 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Let me nitpick
Message:

Finding the most useful and effective way to share that experience is really important, I think, because learning which are the good and bad apples is going to determine the next phase of our human history.

Are you trying to suggest something, Jeffrey? Like what's the right way to make your case? I don't know if you read my post, but I tried to explain to you that all an ex-premie has to do is honestly state what his experience with M & K were, and how ultimately we decided to just let go of it. I don't know that there is a 'most useful and effective' way of doing that.

I understand your point about reaching out to be a part of something bigger than yourself, but I don't see how that ties in with remaining a premie or becoming an ex, unless that your point is that it's either or. Maybe what you're suggesting is that a premie will remian a premie only so long as it seems that's the only group to belong to, and only becomes an ex when he sees there's an alternative group to join (concerning the subject of M & K) that's more in tune with how he or she feels about it.

I don't know that you are suggesting this, but hey, even if you're not, I think I might have hit on something. For myself, I never listened to what people had to say that was negative about M & K until I heard ex-premies doing so. When friends and family spoke negative about M & K, I just brushed it off, figuring what do they know. But when I heard people who'd been where I'd been expressing their misgivings, I responded more readily.

That's probably a staple of group consciousness. People have a tendency to respond more favorably to others if they share a common background, and reject advice and opinions from people who haven't travelled in their shoes, like you, Jeffrey. I don't really think you understand what this is about because you've never been there.

You have interesting, intelligent theories, but unless you've been there, you'll never know the heart and soul of it. Only a premie or an ex can know that.

Sorry.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 00:28:15 (GMT)
From: Mark N
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: ah - I see your point ........buuuut
Message:

Embarrasingly, I now find myself arguing on the side of the devil so to speak. You metioned the Catholic church killing, imprisoning etc etc.

For all his faults, M and his group are actually quite mild compared to other cults of today and historical groups of the past.

People will no doubt correct me if I am wrong (I have been uninvolved for a couple of decades) but M/EV whatever is not like Scientology or the Moonies or Raj Neesh or many Christian, Jewish and Islamic fundamentalist groups that all tend to make huge demands on their followers and insist on extreme obedience, mind control, tithing, behaviour codes, have punishment regimes and on and on.

To the best of my knowledge premies are pretty free to tap in or not. M relies on the power of his own speeches to keep people tied to him, there is no systematic big brother organisation policing each person, creating fear in the followers, etc etc.

Using your own arguements, in this light, how rotten is EV really, and if it is in fact quite rotten (which is my personal view) where does that leave so many other groups - many of which purport to be mainstream religious groups, (the very ones that are the 'safe proven and established' choices?

I totally agree with you that we have to use discrimination to determine what groups are good and which are bad but how does one do that, what criterea does one use? By many criterea, EV actually looks quite good because it is very well pitched and relevent to the clients that it seeks to influence. Bad criterea are eliminated so that potential objections can be overcome right from the start.

I hear what you say about people finding being shut up alone in their bodies hell and I have no doubt whatsoever that your experiences with people are orders of magnitude greater then mine, but the process of discriminating good groups from bad group is an individual choice and is a choice made in order to find a way to maximise ones own spiritual development which is unique to each person. So surely at the end of the day the nature of ones development involves lonliness, if only because choosing is an individual process? If you do join a group that does not pan out, the lonliness will be magnified but your spiritual needs (whatever they are) continue unabated inside you.

Mark N

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 02:00:02 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mark N
Subject: There is Larry the cook to consider
Message:

Not to distract from Mark's post and the points he brings up,
but to tack on to his last subject, maybe the good Father Donner
has heard of St Lawrence. The monastic cook.
He found his solitude tolerable because he he had a peace he claimed came from a relationship that he felt he had with the
god.

Truly people dont need others to drive them nuts, people do drive themselves nuts with thier thinking, but others do not
drive themselves nuts with thier thinking.

If something interests you, at work, I work by myself and my mind is mine, I dont have to think about work except occasionally. I could be driven nuts but I find myself interesting and think about what I want.

...well,
there is a BIG difference between taking a walk and walking somewhere you have to go or think you have to go.

There IS the breath, without the rawat family doing a vampire act
with the breath as part of the come on, a case can be made that
feeling it is comfortable. I feel it quite a bit.

The catholics might be focusing on the mother theresa angle more, the one commandment more.....

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:42:34 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: I was an altar boy.
Message:

G'day Jeffrey,
This post comes from 'down under'.I never thought I would see a catholic priest posting here.Thank you for your comments.I am like joe below.I was raised as a catholic,became an altar boy,was sent to a catholic boarding school,became a premie for 26 years and am now a happy ex premie.I hope to see more comments from you Jeffrey.

Cheers, Tony.My father always called priests 'Father trick 'em up'.He was a very irreverent soul.lol.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:29:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: Thank you, Jeffrey **BEST OF FORUM** nomination
Message:

I really liked your post - thanks for taking the time to think about all this and write it. I printed it out and have shared it with Brian. I am somewhat burned out right now, so don't have specific comments to make, but I think you were really 'right on' in identifying some of the problems we have faced on this forum.

I particularly appreciated this part of your post:
Isn’t part of the issue you’re facing the degree to which the exes want to imagine being a group? And isn’t part of THAT issue the negotiation of how to deal with your personal histories while at the same time trying to offer the benefit of your COMMON experience (which defines you as a group) with those who are still stuck in a cult? By what method, in what style of personal sharing, do you clarify your own anger and disenchantment and how do you translate what you’ve learned about THAT for the sake of those who are still in the cult? I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life. That’s a very tricky little proposition to pull off. But it is extremely important, I think, for people to try it, because all over the planet today people are caught between the alienation of modern individualism and the offer of a safety net from every sort of fundamentalism. Any group, and every group, which takes a step in the healing of this issue in the world is a grace given from the future for everyone.

I would very much appreciate future comments from you, should you care to give them. (Warning, not everyone here will agree with you, and you may face some tough opposition. But, since you are a Catholic priest, I imagine you are used to that :)!)

Thanks again from,
Katie (the lapsed Episcopalian)
and, indirectly, from Brian (the former Missouri Synod Lutheran - you can imagine!)

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:42:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jeffrey
Subject: Thank you, Jeffrey **BEST OF FORUM** nomination
Message:

I agree, great post Jeffrey. Alienation does seem to be our modern curse. I was reading a magazine article today that warned of the effects of children being neglected and the lack of empathy those children grow up with as a result. NOT being empathetic is an adaptation that those children make in order to survive.

The article talked about evolutionary adaptations, like a species of fish that lives in caves and now has no eyes. I hope that we, 2000 years from now, will not be species with no empathy as some sort of twisted adaptation.
Sorry for the tangent, thanks for the post.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 02:24:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 2000 years from now
Message:

I hope that we, 2000 years from now, will not be species with no empathy as some sort of twisted adaptation.
Sorry for the tangent, thanks for the post.

Sorry, Helen, but I don't think that we, as a species, are even going to be here 2000 years from now. In fact, we're building our own replacements. Carbon based life forms are on the downside of their reign on earth. Silicon is taking over. You think technology is just going to be whatever humans make it? What's going to happen when these machines start making machines that make machines that make machines.... that declare war on human beings. If you think this idea is just science fiction, now it is, but that is the route things are headed. If we're not very, very careful, we could be our very own extinction.

That's, of course, if the bomb doesn't get us first.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:53:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good grief, Jerry!
Message:

You sound like me on a bad day. I really don't know about the extinction of all carbon-based life forms (although humans all killing each other could happen). We can't even get rid of kudzu:).

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:43:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The end is nigh, Katie
Message:

Well, maybe not ALL carbon based life forms, but the bipedal ones known as man, that'a possibility. Why should we be any less subject to extinction than other species that have gone that way before us? If we look at it, realistically, in the 15 billion years that the universe has been evoloving, humankind, of the cro-magnon variety, has only been here for 40,000 years. And that's on a planet where life has been evolving for 4 billion.

Now, we're in the age of the machine, and the research being done on AI isn't going to stop anytime soon. What do you think the result of that is going to be even 100 years from now given the evolutionary pace of machines going from, in just a couple hundred years, the steam engine to the computer? They're even starting to make computers out of DNA for chrissakes! Movies like AI and The Matrix, though fictional, are based on fact, not fiction. I'm not saying the world they predict is EXACTLY what's it's going to be like, but how far off the mark can they be?

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:50:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The end is nigh, Katie
Message:

Well, I won't argue that human beings have done a pretty good job steering themselves down the road to extinction - and trying to take as many carbon-based life-forms as possible with them. And I don't know enough about the rest to comment (suggest energy supply might be a potential problem though!)

BTW and OT, I LOVED the movie 'The Matrix' - I read a lot of cyberpunk science fiction but have never seen a movie that was as good as most of the books I've read.

Take care, you doomsayer -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:42:47 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 2000 years from now
Message:

You really think that could happen--machines making machines? You been smoking some wacky weed? Or maybe you just saw the movie AI???

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 20:50:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: less than 200 yrs. from now
Message:

Hi Helen,

I jokingly called jerry a carbon chauvinist but jerry does have a valid point about machines making machines and this is not just tauted in sci-fi circles.

I split my reading between science and sci-fi and the lines in the sand are blurring moe every day.

Rocket Scientists are currently designing rockets that will land and the pods will build themselves in order to continue their journey. Why? The need for fuel will hinder the quest for space travel. Not only that but these robotic ambassadors continue to travel but they will constantly improve on their offspring.

At the Silk building in Berkeley engineering R&D, supported by a huge conglomerate of hi-tech leaders like Microsoft, Hewlitt Packard, Intel, and other leading schools in technology are collaborating on the future computer. The intent is to develop organic hardware. Hardware is obstacle to computer technology like fuel is to space vehicles. Another interesting development within this group is SmartDust. The smart dust will eliminate the need for wired communication. This stuff is beyond our current comprehension but it is fully supported by the advanced science community. Intersting?

Don't know about human race will be annihilated in 2000 years but it certainly looks like it will be transformed.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 15:51:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 2000 years from now
Message:

No, Helen, I haven't been smoking any wacky weed. Clean and sober for 15 years, in fact (can you imagine if I WAS still smoking the weed?) Anyway, ever hear of robots? Right now, they're in a primitive stage, mostly working in factories, and yes, making OTHER MACHINES. What do you think, the evolution of that is at a standstill? Hardly.

Pull the plug on all your appliances, Helen. You never know what they might be thinking. Shhh! What's that? I think I heard something..... gotta go....

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 22:59:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:

Hi Jeff,

Very interesting. I guess I'm a triple hit, here, somebody who was a Roman Catholic, a premie and now an ex-premie. Amazing, huh? I was interested in what you said, and I had a few quesions.

My chief interest is in Catholicism which is attempting a significant in-house transformation.

It is? What kind of transformation is that? It seems to me that the Catholic Church has been in a very conservative, almost reactionary phase since the 70s. I do note that the Pope has been going around 'apologizing' for things recently, is that part of the transformation? I noticed that he 'apoligized' to the Eastern Orthodox Church for the Fourth Crusade. I don't think he mentioned Crusades one through three, though. ::))

Lesson: one of the really touchy, and most interesting, issues in religion is the complex relationship between the individual and the group. Brian says his actions were in large part in defense of his individual rights to express himself without being bullied by a flame-thrower, but gets accused by the other libertarians of selling out the group.

I guess I'm not convinced we even have a 'group.' The only thing we have in common was that we were once premies, but even that was a very different thing for each of us. We have as many views on the values and disadvantages of knowledge as there are participants, and we also have many different views on sprituality, religion, the new age as well. We are athiests and christians, you name it. What is it that you think makes 'ex-premies' a group?

I think people have gone on to become part of other 'groups,' that never had anything to do with Maharaji. I know I have.

The Lutherans broke off to start an improved christian religion because they disagreed with the actions of the Catholic Church and the way Christianity was conducted by it. They didn't become 'ex-Catholics' but really they thought they were becoming 'improved Catholics' or 'improved Christians' through reformation of the church.

Ex-premies aren't doing anything of the sort. They are ex-premies, but there isn't any kind of consensus or even an implication that we are trying to become 'improved premies' or that we think we can do what Maharaji does better than he does and therefore are trying to get premies to join our improved cult. We just, basically, no longer believe he ever really did have much of anything to offer and we talk about it.

I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life.

Well, premies claim they aren't a part of a group. And many of them actually don't like the group very much anyway. I don't think ex-premies have any kind of 'group' to offer, except an opportunity to discuss a phenomenon with somebody who has already gone through it. Maybe that's a bit like AA. It's a discussion group, maybe, that helps people question what they have been doing, but it isn't some 'group' with its own philosophy to sell in replacement of the one premies already have, because we all have different 'philosophies' if you will.

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 22:57:41 (GMT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:

Hi, Joe --

Yes, certainly, the hierarchy of the church is in a reactionary mode. But, to borrow another metaphor, the toothpaste is out of the tube. Most Catholics liked the church they saw through the lens of the Second Vatican Council, and they're not about to give it up. I think most are simply waiting until the hierarchy grows up. Some are pushing in small groups, the Women's Ordination Conference, etc.

Yes, whether the ex-premies are, or want to be, some kind of group is what looks to me like one of the questions all over forum 5, one of the contributing factors to the blow-up of forum 5, and part of the energy behind plans for forum 6. Certainly the exes are not trying to sell a 'new, improved!' version of M and K. But I think they ARE part of a significant group of people who know something very important about religion and modern life. HOW they decide to share what they know is a big question at the moment.

J

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 04:46:45 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A.A. does have a philosophy
Message:

Joe wrote:

'I don't think ex-premies have any kind of 'group' to offer, except an opportunity to discuss a phenomenon with somebody who has already gone through it. Maybe that's a bit like AA. It's a discussion group, maybe, that helps people question what they have been doing, but it isn't some 'group' with its own philosophy to sell in replacement of the one premies already have, because we all have different 'philosophies' if you will.'

Henry responded:

Hi Joe,
You made some interesting points in a great thread.

Perhaps I misunderstood your comment about AA (and the 12 step programs in general). It's definately more than a discussion group. I think it has characteristics of a religion or at least a philosophy. In fact, there is even a 12 step called Fundamentalists Anonymous, which helps people recover from their addiction to fundamentalism.

I spent a couple of years in a 12 step program for codependency. By working the steps, one can experience a mental-emotional-spiritual process of acknowledging the addiction, making room for a 'Higher Power' in one's life, asking the HP for help, and consequently reorganizing one's life and behavior on a more sound ethical foundation.

The 12 step program helped me understand more of my emotional issues and how I got hooked into mj's cult. It was a step towards my becoming an ex.

The 2nd edition of Marc Galanter's 'Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion' (the 1st edition has been quoted on the EPO site for its discussion of DLM) contains a new chapter analyzing AA and the 12 step programs.

Best wishes,
Henry

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